From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 01:22:20 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Model Message-ID: <00dc01c2c990$5f4312a0$a9bbbad0@cts> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IBSPEC whoever you are .The B17 Model Will be aradio Controlled and will = fly well as all my models do. Se Hemet Model Masters Web Site at www.netzon.net/~spider/ You will enjoy the pictures of some fabulous models on this site Spider ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IBSPEC whoever you are .The B17 Model = Will be=20 aradio Controlled and will fly well as all my models do. Se Hemet Model = Masters=20 Web Site at
www.netzon.net/~spider/
 You will enjoy the pictures of = some fabulous=20 models on this site
 
    =20 Spider
------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 03:21:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John I. Jenkins) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:21:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Source of B-17 information References: Message-ID: <002c01c2c9a1$26658420$e40ea641@j3367> There is a great deal of information about individual B-17s to be found in a softbound British 1998 publication "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story" by Roger A. Freeman with David Osborne (ISBN 1 85409 522 6). In addition to an abbreviated history of each airplane manufactured, there is a compilation of the manufacturing sequence that shows at what point in the stream of aircraft produced the many and various changes to the design were made. Also, there is a narrative history of the several models of the B-17 accompanied by lots of photographs and explanatory data. Incidentally, I believe the first number in the tail number sequence (sometimes shown in print as two numbers) is actually the last digit (or the last two digits) of the fiscal year in which a particular contract was let for the manufacture of one or more airplanes. At the time the B-17 was being produced the government's fiscal year was probably from July 1 through June 30 of the following calendar year. John I. Jenkins From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 03:36:40 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:36:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? Message-ID: <175.15a41e7a.2b6c9ac8@aol.com> Hi Gang I may never send this. A few days ago I taught? about 18 young men taking a class in heavy duty Mechanics in the vocational department at Boise State University They had great big trucks and diesel engines apart all over the place. My class was on internal combustion and jet engines and lasted from 9 am until noon. I still had stitches from surgery and didn't know if I could stand up for 3 hours but I did with no problem. They were all men from about 19 to 24 and were all sharp, intelligent, clean cut decent, short haired, no earrings type fellows I would not have minded my daughter dating if I had one. They reminded me very much of the type we were when we were in training to become aircrews and mechanics. As a result of that class I was asked to be interviewed by one of the teachers who was writing an article. I told him sure. That questions didn't bother me it was to answers that got me in trouble. One of the first questions he asked me. Leaving out your family tell me about your very closest friend. I thought about in a bit and Said Gee that is a tough one already I would have to think about that a little. All right, he said, tell my just a little about your 5 or 6 best friends. I did. He said "They are all female, don't you have any close male friends? Oh yes I said. Well, tell me about them. I did. It was very enlightening to me. I had never realized this before. Two were ex ground crew. Two were gunners. One was a Bombardier, One was a Navigator About 6 were pilots. Three lived in my hut with me One was on our original crew. Two were not even in the 303ed B. G. I met them at our reunions and/or on this e-mail. I DO NOT HAVE ONE CLOSE MALE FRIEND THAT LIVES IN BOISE. If I had been assigned to the 279th or 384th where I know no one I would have absolutely NO male best friend. If I had been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit the sack very depressed tonight instead of elated like I am now. Good night and thank you all... Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 04:46:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:46:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? References: <175.15a41e7a.2b6c9ac8@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c2c9ac$e9570f70$cf91c8cf@altonmain> 'Lo, Jack. I am not trying to hang on your coat tails when I write this, because you have really written a poignant and telling message. I did want to relate some things that my late Dad told me about his friends. He said he never had better friends than when he was in the Army. He spent a year in the Royal Canadian Engineers, before volunteering with the USAAF, which was in the "Army" again, of course. He used to tell me of people he met here and there. I am afraid I forgot most of the names, but he did too, in later years. I think the memories he had were of the times, which he said he would never trade for anything. I know a few of the names.....Charlie Allshouse, who he used to go AWOL with under the fence after missions. They would head to the closest bar, sometimes a bit of a hike, and then sneak back in the same way. They used to call it the Burma Trail, after their brothers in Asia, flying over the "Hump". He told me they got caught a few times, and did KP. They didn't have potato peelers, just paring knives. Dad said they weren't too careful, and ended up with plenty of nicks. He said it got so they would start cutting the spuds into little squares, with no peel. A lot easier then peeling. His navigator was killed on the day he got shot down. Two others, Don Irons WG, got shot through both legs. The radio man got shot in the head. Both of them were repatriated. He met Don Irons years later at POW reunions. Dad was the TG, and received a few splinters from shrapnel. He was the last to bail out, and manned his guns until there was no ammo left. He did the best he could in a difficult situation and will be my hero until the day I die. I try and pass the empathy and emotion I feel for my father on to my kids. I will do it with my little granddaughter, too. Most of the good men he befriended were in prison camp. After all, he spent about 20 months with them, instead of a few months with his overseas crew. Most of the crews he came over with were killed or imprisoned. He was in the air in the summer and fall of '43, and chances were not very good. Most of the men are gone now, and many more died in action. Charlie Allshouse got his head shot off over Germany. Almost all the others he used to go to Royston, Bedford, Luton, Cambridge, and other little villages around East Anglia, died in the war. The rest have since passed away, including my father. So, Jack, when you say that the best friends you ever had just aren't here anymore, I understand. My father gave that to me. My heart is with you, but please know that you will always have a friend of every person who reads this list. Especially those that understand like I do. I love and respect all you have done, my friend. You are part of all of our memories, and bring them home to us every time you write. Please don't ever give it up, until you just can't do it anymore. I can say that about all of you vets who take part in this talk list. We owe you everything, and you give back to us sons just about everything that matters. Gordy "tailgunnerson" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: ; ; ; ; Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? > Hi Gang > I may never send this. A few days ago I taught? about 18 young men > taking a class in heavy duty Mechanics in the vocational department at Boise > State University They had great big trucks and diesel engines apart all over > the place. My class was on internal combustion and jet engines and lasted > from 9 am until noon. I still had stitches from surgery and didn't know if I > could stand up for 3 hours but I did with no problem. They were all men from > about 19 to 24 and were all sharp, intelligent, clean cut decent, short > haired, no earrings type fellows I would not have minded my daughter dating > if I had one. They reminded me very much of the type we were when we were in > training to become aircrews and mechanics. As a result of that class I was > asked to be interviewed by one of the teachers who was writing an article. I > told him sure. That questions didn't bother me it was to answers that got me > in trouble. > One of the first questions he asked me. Leaving out your family tell me > about your very closest friend. I thought about in a bit and Said Gee that > is a tough one already I would have to think about that a little. All right, > he said, tell my just a little about your 5 or 6 best friends. I did. He said > "They are all female, don't you have any close male friends? Oh yes I said. > Well, tell me about them. I did. It was very enlightening to me. I had never > realized this before. Two were ex ground crew. Two were gunners. One was a > Bombardier, One was a Navigator About 6 were pilots. Three lived in my hut > with me One was on our original crew. Two were not even in the 303ed B. G. I > met them at our reunions and/or on this e-mail. I DO NOT HAVE ONE CLOSE MALE > FRIEND THAT LIVES IN BOISE. If I had been assigned to the 279th or 384th > where I know no one I would have absolutely NO male best friend. If I had > been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit the sack > very depressed tonight instead of elated like I am now. Good night and thank > you all... > Best Wishes, > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 05:15:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 00:15:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Model Message-ID: <14a.1b24ed5a.2b6cb1f2@aol.com> 
thought you was our recent 303rd prez from md.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 09:54:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 04:54:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two Ways to Know?
Message-ID: <29.379db82d.2b6cf370@aol.com>

 Friend Gordy (Tailgunnerson)
     I have learned there are two ways to really get to know someone. I mean 
really KNOW them. Fight a war with them or marry them. You have every right 
to be very proud of you great Father. I wish I had known him. Thank you for 
your reply. I debated with my self about sending that letter. I do remember 
the names, but decided to leave them out.
     Best Wishes,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 18:15:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:15:17 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Friends
References: <20030201170236.1C6CA536EB@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c2ca1d$e0badc40$16960243@default>

Gordy , I think the point of Jacks' letter came right at the end....
At least that is the way I read it.

 if I had been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit
the sack
 very depressed tonight      instead of elated like I am now.     Good night
and
thank
 you all...
         Best Wishes,
              Jack



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 21:24:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 16:24:41 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
Message-ID: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>

As with many of you, I'm sure, I changed my plans for today and spent the 
last few hours glued to the TV watching over and over our space ship tearing 
apart as it was streaking to earth. I felt and will feel the deepest heart 
felt sympathy for the seven souls aboard and will continue my sadness and 
sympathy for them, their families and loved ones for so long as I shall live. 
 
     Next I'm sure will come program after program, day after day when 
aeronautically ignorant radio and TV commentators will ask stupid questions 
to equally ignorant stupid politicians and retired self anointed military 
specialists to speculate on what happened. Then comment and argue with their 
opinions of terrorists or rockets or bombs, our secret missiles that went 
astray or structural failures, to high, to low, to fast, to slow, The 
democrats vote in congress, The republicans vote in congress, a meteorite, 
sun spots, radiation, and even so & so did it to get elected next fall. 
     I am somewhat ashamed of myself to put it in prospective.  We lost one 
old plane and seven well trained, intelligent, talented people.  During our 
war we were very happy and felt blessed if we only lost one airplane today 
even though it had nine or ten well trained, intelligent, talented people 
aboard. And yesterday and/or tomorrow it might be seven planes with 9 or 10 
well trained, intelligent, talented people aboard each one or a whole 
Squadron and we were just one Bomb Group out of the many that flew yesterday 
today and tomorrow.
      When mankind explored the sea we lost many.  As we entered into the air 
we lost many. As we enter into space we shall lose many.  And someday our own 
weapons, or disease, or a meteorite, or radiation, a visiting planet, a 
cooling or exploding sun or??? will wipe us all out. So hang in there.
     Keep the faith,
           Jack Rencher
.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 17:03:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:03:26 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Such deprivation!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3127032207_9875054
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

>> Hi Spider and All:  When I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 3=
91st
>> Bomb Group  Restaurant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport a=
nd
>> the owner had on display three models at full size (or very close), a  P=
-51.
>> F4U and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk about expensive
>> models that don=B9t fly!  I believe the P-51 and the
>> F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I did so=
me
>> research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with infol   T=
hanks
>> for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> A neglected child indeed, but mainly because most of the toys kids bang
>> around with today wereen=B9t invented when I stumbled through childhood.  =
Ah,
>> but last night=B9s trip to TOYS-R-US was a revelation!  Strolling through =
the
>> aisle I discovered three massive plastic semi-assembled models of a P-38=
 and
>> a Stuka and an F4-U Corsair, with wingspans about  24=B2 and superdailed a=
t
>> that.   They sell for $44 - $48  and have additional props and figures
>> included.  Not that the on-line stuff wasn=B9t fantastic, it surely
>> was.....neglected to get the mfg. Name, but I=B9ll scout around.  Still wo=
nder
>> how come they chose the Stuka....do kids remember  that  ugly thing?
>> Cheers, Bob Hand
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20



--B_3127032207_9875054
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: Such deprivation!



Hi Spider and All=
:  When I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 391st Bomb Group =
 Restaurant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport a=
nd the owner had on display three models at full size (or very close), a &nb=
sp;P-51. F4U and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk =
about expensive models that don’t fly!  I believe the P-51 and th=
e 

F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I=
 did some research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with inf=
ol   Thanks for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand







































A neglected child indeed, but mainly because most of the toys kids bang aro=
und with today wereen’t invented when I stumbled through childhood. &n=
bsp;Ah, but last night’s trip to TOYS-R-US was a revelation!  Str=
olling through the aisle I discovered three massive plastic semi-assembled m=
odels of a P-38 and a Stuka and an F4-U Corsair, with wingspans about  =
24” and superdailed at that.   They sell for $44 - $48  =
;and have additional props and figures included.  Not that the on-line =
stuff wasn’t fantastic, it surely was.....neglected to get the mfg. Na=
me, but I’ll scout around.  Still wonder how come they chose the =
Stuka....do kids remember  that  ugly thing?    Che=
ers, Bob Hand






































--B_3127032207_9875054--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 00:38:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:38:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1e8.cdb5c3.2b6f13fb@aol.com>

--part1_1e8.cdb5c3.2b6f13fb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

          Jack

    I just read your thoughts about the loss of the space ship.  These are my 
thoughts to the word.  AMEN and thanks to you.    My brother Leslie 
Schweinebraten was lost on what was to be his last mission on May 24 1944.. 
He was a good man too. I continue to thank all veterans and those who have 
given  their life for our country.
                                                            
George Schweinebraten

--part1_1e8.cdb5c3.2b6f13fb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

          Jack



    I just read your thoughts about the loss of the space ship.  These are my thoughts to the word.  AMEN and thanks to you.    My brother Leslie Schweinebraten was lost on what was to be his last mission on May 24 1944.. He was a good man too. I continue to thank all veterans and those who have given  their life for our country.

                                                            

George Schweinebraten

--part1_1e8.cdb5c3.2b6f13fb_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 19:07:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:07:49 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <19d.104e0899.2b6ec685@aol.com>

--part1_19d.104e0899.2b6ec685_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well said Jack. GOD is still in control. Our prayers go to the familes of the 
of the lost hero's.

--part1_19d.104e0899.2b6ec685_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well said Jack. GOD is still in control. Our prayers go to the familes of the of the lost hero's.

--part1_19d.104e0899.2b6ec685_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 17:05:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:05:28 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
References: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c2cadd$49446f00$6401a8c0@none>

 I once attended a talk given by Kris Kraft, who was the Director of Flight
Operations for the Apollo program. He referred to his team as Steely-Eyed
Missle-men...who knew the incredible systems complexity and physics involved
in space flight presented very real risks, not the video game commonly
portrayed by hollywood.

Columbia was making Shuttle flight 113, and was on its 28th launch. It
boggles the mind that any craft of this complexity can survive the "Light
fuse and get away" solid rocket launches ( 8 minutes to 17,000 miles per
hour) and the > *Mach 18* re-entry speeds once, never mind 28 times. There
was a failure, and NASA will trace the roots and learn from it.





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 01:57:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:57:11 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1d0.173c7db.2b6f2677@aol.com>

George,
     Thanks for your kind words. I'm very sorry about your Brother. You can 
be very proud of him. I suppose every one sweated out their last mission. I 
did even though it turned out to be a milk run. 
Happy Sunday night,  Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 01:57:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:57:11 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1d0.173c7db.2b6f2677@aol.com>

George,
     Thanks for your kind words. I'm very sorry about your Brother. You can 
be very proud of him. I suppose every one sweated out their last mission. I 
did even though it turned out to be a milk run. 
Happy Sunday night,  Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 23:32:10 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 17:32:10 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force
Message-ID: 




Don't know how many of you have run across this one, but it is invaluable. "Yanks Over Europe - American Flyers in World War II," by Jerome Klinkowitz was published in 1996. He discusses the subject by reviewing all of the other books we are familiar with, sort of a survey of the books on USAAF in Europe in WWII. An superb overview of the literature covering 8AF (and the others in theater).


Also, I am eagerly awaiting others coming out on the 303rd. I know books by Lew Lyle, Hal Susskind, and Ken Clark are expected. Any more from our Hell's Angels subscribers?


Brian S. McGuire








>From: Kevin Pearson 

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force 

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:48:01 -0800 (PST) 

> 

>What are your favorite books on the Eighth Air Force? 

>We all know about all of Freeman's books. What are 

>some obscure good books us younger lads may not of 

>heard of before? 

> 

>My all time favorite is Bert Stiles "Seranade to the 

>Big Bird." 

>Blue Skies 

>Kevin 

> 

> 

>__________________________________________________ 

>Do you Yahoo!? 

>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. 

>http://mailplus.yahoo.com 


Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 13:53:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:53:14 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
In-Reply-To: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>So well stated, Jack, and what we've come to expect.  We all  echo your words
of sympathy and comfort to the survivors. It's a shame that the symbol of this
expedition must be the scorched and twisted helmet instead of the "high five" of
accomplishment...but everything has its price.  Most of the reporting from first
sighting has been pure conjecture stooping to provocative invasion of privacy...
enough to make you sick.
On another subject, congrats to0 all who returned safely from the 3 Feb.'45
mission to Berlin, #35 for Fink's Crew....58 years ago...WOW 111 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 03:56:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:56:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
References: 
Message-ID: <002201c2cc01$6b4039c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Yes, Bob, I remember that Feb. 3rd '45 mission to Berlin there were alot of
planes in the air that morning and as I recall we could see numbers of them
streaming  toward the coast before we fell into position in the armada. My
granddaughter'sbiday is Feb 3rd so I doubly remmeber the date. Do you
remeber that Fink's crew flying in plane #517 (you'll know the name) flew
with the 359th in Group B, the low squadron. I was flying deputy lead
navigator in #619 with my pilot Owen Knutzen and most of our original crew.
It was my 14th mission.
Did you know Ted Mistal, bombadier, in the 360th. Toward the end of my tour
I flew one mission with him?
LeRoy Christenson, Navigator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hand" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup


> >So well stated, Jack, and what we've come to expect.  We all  echo your
words
> of sympathy and comfort to the survivors. It's a shame that the symbol of
this
> expedition must be the scorched and twisted helmet instead of the "high
five" of
> accomplishment...but everything has its price.  Most of the reporting from
first
> sighting has been pure conjecture stooping to provocative invasion of
privacy...
> enough to make you sick.
> On another subject, congrats to0 all who returned safely from the 3
Feb.'45
> mission to Berlin, #35 for Fink's Crew....58 years ago...WOW 111
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 18:49:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:49:04 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]3 Feb.'45 Berlin Express
In-Reply-To: <002201c2cc01$6b4039c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: 

> Hello LeRoy...great to hear from you.  58 years is a bit of a stretch, to be
sure...but memory serves well back to that time and place.  Yes, we were flying
in 46517 F-PU, the bird that had brought us back 27 times.  Threatened several
times to go out and paint the nose "Scotch & Sofa" but never got around to it. I
painted a lot of jackets, did a lot of drawing and took a bunch of photos, a lot
of which are in the book "Last Raid" (shameless plug!)  And of course the whole
Columbia disaster is so very sad....that the twisted, burnt helmet had to be a
memento of the flight rather than a round of high-fives is most disappointing.
Trust you and your family are well....Best and Cheers, Bob Hand
> 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 22:11:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:11:48 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #834 - 1 msg
Message-ID: 

--part1_f.91385a4.2b7194a4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I send a well done and GODs blessings to all the Chaplins that prayed for all 
of us during the many missions of the 303rd.  The comfort that they were 
covering us and open to hear us and talk to us very special. Thank you.
Bob Morris

--part1_f.91385a4.2b7194a4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I send a well done and GODs blessings to all the Chapl=
ins that prayed for all of us during the many missions of the 303rd.  T=
he comfort that they were covering us and open to hear us and talk to us ver=
y special. Thank you.

Bob Morris

--part1_f.91385a4.2b7194a4_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 21:11:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:11:18 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia
Message-ID: <000c01c2cc91$f849b720$6d68db40@billowen>

Friends,

On Saturday morning my wife and I were eating breakfast when we heard this
terrific boom. It sounded like a sonic boom only much louder than any I have
ever heard. It rumbled for several seconds and very gradually went away. The
house shook and everything in the house rattled, much like I would think
would happen during an earthquake. I thought there had been an explosion
somewhere near my house. I stepped out onto the patio to look around
thinking I might see a column of smoke rising from somewhere here in Tyler.
Didn't see anything until I looked up to the south. There was a large streak
and several smaller streaks of what looked to be white smoke moving from NW
to SE across a very clear blue sky. I didn't think much about that ... just
a vapor trail ... but was puzzled as to why there would be several trails
instead of just one. I did not realize what I had seen until about 30
minutes later when I turned on the TV and learned what had happened.

>From what I have read in the papers, most of the debris field is
concentrated along a line from Nacogdoches to Hemphill. This would place
Columbia's flight path about 30 miles south of Tyler and traveling NW to SE.
Some debris was found locally but most is farther to the SE of here in the
Nacogdoches - Hemphill areas. What I'm wondering is this: Nacogdoches is
about 64 air miles SE of Tyler. So if large pieces of debris fell to the
ground there would Columbia have been high enough when it passed Tyler to
have been leaving vapor trails or would what I saw have been smoke. I'm
thinking it was probably vapor trails and it descended rapidly enough to
come to earth only 64 miles away. This morning's paper said the nose cone
was found near Hemphill which is approximately 112 air miles SE of here.

I am thankful that no one on the ground was injured although I have seen on
TV that there were several close calls. They have shown people standing
beside fairly large objects that missed them by only a few feet. One
fisherman said something fell in the water so close to his boat that it
splashed water on him. No, Jack, it probably wasn't a big bass even though
we have plenty of them here in east Texas.

Bill Owen
Tyler, Texas






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 00:48:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:48:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd Radio Callsigns
Message-ID: <20030205004855.49687.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-177291467-1044406135=:49523
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


To Fred and all .... better late than never!
303rd BG Radio Callsigns.
41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day COWBOY.
303rd Spring 1944 till VE day
358BS= WHIPCREAM  
359BS= EAVESDROP 
360BS= TOYDOLL 
427BS= NEWROW
Todd- (303rd BGA A637)

Original message Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:35:04 -0600
From: Fred Preller 
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd BG CallsignsI
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I have the squadron RT callsigns, but I need the 303rd BG and 41st CBW callsigns 
for my website http://Mighty8thAF.Preller.US/ - can anyone out there help?

Please reply directly by email, and "Keep the Show on the Road!"
f3
-- 
Fred Preller
Rockwall, Texas






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
--0-177291467-1044406135=:49523
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


To Fred and all .... better late than never!

303rd BG Radio Callsigns.

41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day COWBOY.

303rd Spring 1944 till VE day

358BS= WHIPCREAM  

359BS= EAVESDROP 

360BS= TOYDOLL 

427BS= NEWROW

Todd- (303rd BGA A637)


Original message Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:35:04 -0600
From: Fred Preller 
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd BG CallsignsI
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I have the squadron RT callsigns, but I need the 303rd BG and 41st CBW callsigns 
for my website http://Mighty8thAF.Preller.US/ - can anyone out there help?

Please reply directly by email, and "Keep the Show on the Road!"
f3
-- 
Fred Preller
Rockwall, Texas



Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
--0-177291467-1044406135=:49523--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 17:14:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:14:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
Message-ID: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2CD07.C53A6980
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what I used =
to send reports back to England,

7MT=20

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2CD07.C53A6980
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, =
dah dah=20
dah, dah was what I used to send reports back to England,


 


7MT 


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2CD07.C53A6980--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 18:07:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:07:38 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
In-Reply-To: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <3E40F07A.28275.BE6F4A@localhost>

> For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what
> I used to send reports back to England,
> 
> 7MT 

Fory,
I think you put an extra "dah" in your M.  :-)
Can you tell us more about sending reports to England?

Thanks!
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 21:46:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:46:04 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
References: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <009101c2cd5f$fd075aa0$6700a8c0@Home>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C2CD25.4F945380
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fory - I read the messages posted here daily with great interest and =
pleasure.
I'm the son of Ernest Holtorf, who as it turned out flew three missions =
as CP with your crew (Kuykendall). These were mission no.s: 325 - =
Leipzig, 332 - Essen, and 333 - Schwerte.
332 & 333 were his 29th, 30th and last missions.
He was a tall blond man, do you have any photos or recollections you are =
willing to share?
I'm sorting through my Dad's scrapbook and if I can identify any photos =
I may have of your ship or crew I'll be sure and forward them to you.
Thanks to you and all of the other men of the 303rd for your courage, =
sacrifice and service.
Best regards, Gary Holtorf

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C2CD25.4F945380
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Fory - I read the messages posted here =
daily=20
with great interest and pleasure.


I'm the son of Ernest Holtorf, who as =
it turned=20
out flew three missions as CP with your crew (Kuykendall). These were =
mission=20
no.s: 325 - Leipzig, 332 - Essen, and 333 - Schwerte.


332 & 333 were his 29th, 30th =
and last=20
missions.


He was a tall blond man, do you have =
any photos=20
or recollections you are willing to share?


I'm sorting through my Dad's scrapbook =
and if I=20
can identify any photos I may have of your ship or crew I'll be =
sure and=20
forward them to you.


Thanks to you and all of the other men =
of the=20
303rd for your courage, sacrifice and service.


Best regards, Gary =
Holtorf


 


------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C2CD25.4F945380--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 19:41:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:41:15 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
In-Reply-To: <3E40F07A.28275.BE6F4A@localhost>
References: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <3E41228B.2347.19D9A90@localhost>


> > For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what
> > I used to send reports back to England,
> > 
> > 7MT 

> I think you put an extra "dah" in your M.  :-)
> Can you tell us more about sending reports to England?

I'd like to hear more about the procedure also. 
I am curious what the " 7MT "  or "7OT " (whichever is right), refers 
to?  Was this the Molesworth callsign or something?

 I also wanted to comment on the Todd Holritt post.  The squadron 
callsigns he posted, ie WHIPCREAM, EAVESDROP, TOYDOLL, and NEWROW 
agree with what I have found in my research, and also the CBW 
callsigns.  But I wanted to clarify that the Cowboy (and I assume 
this would apply to the Fatgal callsign as well)  callsign was the 
41st CBW callsign.  The original question in this thread asked for 
the 303rd BG callsign, which wasn't included in that post.
    From what I have determined, and this may not be correct, on 
missions, the 303rdBG would use the 41st CBW callsign plus either 
able, baker, charlie, or dog, depending on their position in the CBW 
formation that particular day.  Ie one day the 303rd might be "Coyboy 
Able", and another day, they might be "Coyboy Charlie", etc.  
   Also, from what I have seen in the papers I have, the squadron 
callsigns shown above, may not have been used on missions, because 
the flimsys I have indicate callsigns like  "Coyboy Baker LOW", or 
"Coyboy Baker Lead" to indicate a particular squadron, while on a 
mission.  I have several references for using the squadron callsigns 
for local flights around England, however.
    However the question still needs answering, with respect to what 
the callsign for the 303rdBG was, assuming that it had one.   I have 
a couple documents indicating that the Molesworth base callsign might 
have been  " SABBO "   .   Could this have been the 303rdBG callsign? 
 If so, when would it have been used? Perhaps just when contacting 
the field prior to landing?  I assume that on missions, the Cowboy-
Baker type callsign would be used, and on local flights, the squadron 
callsigns would be used.   Or did the 303rd just not have a callsign? 
 
Just curious.  



 

303rd BG Radio Callsigns.
41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day 
COWBOY.
303rd Spring 1944 till VE day 358BS= WHIPCREAM  359BS= EAVESDROP 
360BS=
TOYDOLL 427BS= NEWROW Todd- (303rd BGA A637)

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 17:09:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:09:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
In-Reply-To: <009101c2cd5f$fd075aa0$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <20030206170923.96328.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

In The Mighty Eighth by Freeman, he mentions that
later in the war Bomb Groups were given an older, war
weary fighter, usually a P-47, to shepherd the
Assembly of the bombers.  Did the 303rd have such a
plane?
Cheers,
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 17:39:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:39:23 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 7MT
Message-ID: <001701c2ce06$b0986c20$cbbcf5cd@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2CDD4.651C27A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When I was "promoted" to lead crew status I could do 25 wpm. And I =
goofed on 7MT. Shame on me.

7MT was in London, I believe. As Lead RO, I prepared and sent position =
messages as provided to me by our Navigator.
Usually two msgs. One as we were entering enemy territory and another at =
the IP, as we entered bomb run.
After "bombs away" I sent a report as based on Bombardiers info as to =
the results of our strike and time.

All this was encoded before I sent the messages and it kept me too busy =
to worry about flak and ME-262's.

The code of the day was on rice paper and I was to eat the paper if need =
be. Luckily there was no need.

For Gary Holtorf: I was on those missions you mention and am sorry to =
relate that I do not recall your Dad. We may be in same photo if lead =
crew photos were taken . I have no photos but will crank up my 303rd CD =
to see what is there.

Fory=20
Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2CDD4.651C27A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









When I was "promoted" to lead crew =
status I=20
could do 25 wpm. And I goofed on 7MT. Shame on me.


 


7MT was in London, I believe. As Lead =
RO, I=20
prepared and sent position messages as provided to me by our=20
Navigator.


Usually two msgs. One as we were =
entering enemy=20
territory and another at the IP, as we entered bomb run.


After "bombs away" I sent a report as =
based on=20
Bombardiers info as to the results of our strike and time.


 


All this was encoded before I sent the =
messages=20
and it kept me too busy to worry about flak and ME-262's.


 


The code of the day was on rice paper =
and I was=20
to eat the paper if need be. Luckily there was no need.


 


For Gary Holtorf: I was on those =
missions you=20
mention and am sorry to relate that I do not recall your Dad. We may be =
in same=20
photo if lead crew photos were taken . I have no photos but will crank =
up my=20
303rd CD to see what is there.


 


Fory 


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2CDD4.651C27A0--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 18:24:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:24:01 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB8A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list,
I am trying to help a friend find out some information about his uncle.
This uncle was killed in Sept of 43 when his plane crashed into Skiddaw
Mountain in ENG.  He was on a volunteer mission to return some injured
airmen who had crashed in the same area.  At the time he was supposed to
have been assigned to the 482nd  BG(PFF).  Records of the crash state that
he was with the 482nd but the 482nd has no record of him.  Apparently his
records were also a victim of the 1973 fire.  No personnel records exist.

He does have an air medal and two campaign ribbons indicating that he was in
a combat theater for more than 30 days.  Family tradition records that he
completed his 25 and was waiting to go home when the crash occurred.  But
they have no proof of this or even if he was with a BG prior to the 482nd.
First question: would an air medal ever be awarded to someone who did not
complete the minimum 5 missions?

While reading "3 engines, half a wing and a prayer" this morning, I came
across a statement that a 2LT Jacob James of the 427th had been transferred
to the 482nd PFF.  I searched for him on the 303rd site with little success.
I know that he came to the 303rd on 29 May 43.   Second question: Can
someone tell me how many missions he flew and when he was transferred? My
reasons are too complicated to explain.

Lastly, is there a way to determine what BG's were in or arrived in ENG
during the first 9 months of 1943?

Thanks for whatever help you can provide.

Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 21:42:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB8A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030206214222.20268.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  The Mighty Eighth, by Roger Freeman, has a
group history at the back of the book that will answer
your last question about groups becoming operational
in 1944.  Sorry I can't help with the other two
questions.  The 482nd in 1943 was somewhat of a
mysterious Group because of all the new fangled radar
they were experimenting with.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
Kevin
--- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> Hi list,
> I am trying to help a friend find out some
> information about his uncle.
> This uncle was killed in Sept of 43 when his plane
> crashed into Skiddaw
> Mountain in ENG.  He was on a volunteer mission to
> return some injured
> airmen who had crashed in the same area.  At the
> time he was supposed to
> have been assigned to the 482nd  BG(PFF).  Records
> of the crash state that
> he was with the 482nd but the 482nd has no record of
> him.  Apparently his
> records were also a victim of the 1973 fire.  No
> personnel records exist.
> 
> He does have an air medal and two campaign ribbons
> indicating that he was in
> a combat theater for more than 30 days.  Family
> tradition records that he
> completed his 25 and was waiting to go home when the
> crash occurred.  But
> they have no proof of this or even if he was with a
> BG prior to the 482nd.
> First question: would an air medal ever be awarded
> to someone who did not
> complete the minimum 5 missions?
> 
> While reading "3 engines, half a wing and a prayer"
> this morning, I came
> across a statement that a 2LT Jacob James of the
> 427th had been transferred
> to the 482nd PFF.  I searched for him on the 303rd
> site with little success.
> I know that he came to the 303rd on 29 May 43.  
> Second question: Can
> someone tell me how many missions he flew and when
> he was transferred? My
> reasons are too complicated to explain.
> 
> Lastly, is there a way to determine what BG's were
> in or arrived in ENG
> during the first 9 months of 1943?
> 
> Thanks for whatever help you can provide.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 04:13:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:13:46 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Call Signs
Message-ID: <7a.37d9e4a7.2b748c7a@aol.com>

My Grandfather, Colonel Ford Lauer, commanded the 99th BG (15th AF) in 1944. 
He led the first shuttle bombing mission to Russia on June 2nd (Operation 
Frantic). While in Russia, the group flew a mission out of Poltavia. None of 
the upper echelon wizards or cloak and dagger types were along. During pre 
mission briefing, one of the pilots asked Colonel Lauer what the code word 
for target bombed was. Colonel Lauer decided to tell them a code word he was 
sure they wouldn't forget. The code word for target bombed was "POONTANG."  
Not very politically correct these days, but what the heck. Just a little 
historical humor................Ford J. Lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 04:21:12 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:21:12 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
Message-ID: 




Kevin -


The 303rd did indeed have such a plane. In fact, I believe I remember seeing a picture of two Jugs parked near the J-hangar (might want to check the website). While in England, I commissioned Keith Hill to do an original painting of Lew Lyle taking off in the 303rd P-47 prior to a mission. I believe it was in Ben Smith's book that he talks about Col Lyle watching the group form up in his P-47, and cut the grass while buzzing the airfield. The painting still hangs at Molesworth, in the Lewis E. Lyle Conference Room in the Might In Flight Building (the main operations building). It entitled it "Ready to Go," and I put together a full page of text that hangs next to it. Unfortunately, I no longer have that text.


Cheers from the Midlands. Come visit McGuire's Aviation Art next time in Omaha. 


Brian S. McGuire








>From: Kevin Pearson 

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly 

>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:09:23 -0800 (PST) 

> 

>In The Mighty Eighth by Freeman, he mentions that 

>later in the war Bomb Groups were given an older, war 

>weary fighter, usually a P-47, to shepherd the 

>Assembly of the bombers. Did the 303rd have such a 

>plane? 

>Cheers, 

>Kevin 

> 

>__________________________________________________ 

>Do you Yahoo!? 

>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. 

>http://mailplus.yahoo.com 


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES.  Get 2 months FREE*.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 17:28:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marleen Eastin)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 11:28:49 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: 

Good morning,
  I was wondering about something that I think I have heard or read about.  
Didn't families of service men and women display gold stars in their windows 
during WW II or something like that.
  I would like to know what the custom was so that I can display it at our 
house.  We have 2 sons in the service right now, one in Kuwait.  It seems 
like a neat way to show our love and pride for our sons and others.
  Thank you so much for your help.  I love reading what you have to say each 
day!!
God bless,
Marleen





_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 22:27:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:27:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688002580C0D@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

My thanks to two Bills and a Kevin.  You have provided the direction I
needed.
Dave




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 21:21:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (A. BOERSMA)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:21:51 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: <000a01c2ceee$eed3ee40$18ec23c3@brigtta>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CEF7.4FCEEBC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I understand that every aircraft in a formation had its own navigator.
What was his task as only the lead aircraft navigator led the formation.
Could and would he call faulty navigation to the attention of the lead =
navigator ?

Greetings from a spectator near the receiving end,
Ton Boersma
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CEF7.4FCEEBC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









I understand that every aircraft =
in a=20
formation had its own navigator.


What was his task as only the lead =
aircraft=20
navigator led the formation.


Could and would he call faulty =
navigation to the=20
attention of the lead navigator ?


 


Greetings from a spectator near the =
receiving=20
end,


Ton Boersma


------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CEF7.4FCEEBC0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 02:02:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030208020221.47700.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Yikes, Marleen!  Gold Stars meant someone in your
family had been killed.  Silver Stars meant you had
someone in the Service.  The Mother of the Sullivans
had five Gold Stars in her window.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 03:34:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:34:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: <179.15dbeb8f.2b75d4e0@aol.com>

--part1_179.15dbeb8f.2b75d4e0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Blue stars -Gold if you lost one!

--part1_179.15dbeb8f.2b75d4e0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Blue stars -Gold if you lost one!

--part1_179.15dbeb8f.2b75d4e0_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 03:39:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:39:42 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-47 ^ GOLD STARS
Message-ID: <000901c2cf23$ba5a99e0$72bb9ace@mjpmtman>

Message: 1
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
............. Bomb Groups were given ... fighter, usually a P-47, to
 shepherd the Assembly of the bombers.  Did the 303rd have such a
plane?
Cheers,
Kevin
---------------------------------------------------
Please see volume II page 751 of Silver Anniversary Hell's Angel's
Newsletters for photo of P47 that was on our field . This appears in the
August issue of  1996. Also a photo on Page 768 by R. B. Hellinger &
a photo on page 729 by S. W. Smith.. It seems to me in a later issue
someone wrote about.the history of this "jug".  Have searched the  from
theAug. '96 issue into the 2001 issues --nothing..

It was abandoned  in a hangar for lack of repairs zfter an emergency
 landing at some other field. Some one [CO at the time???] sent mechanics to
salvage it and after
 stripping the armament it was flown to our base and used to form up the out
 going formation and meet the returning formation. Don't recall who wrote
the dissertation. --Harry Gobrecht ?????????

RE---GOLD STARS IN WINDOW   Marleen --I think the service star was red.
 -- The gold star was for KIA.
MAURICE J.. PAULK





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 05:51:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:51:09 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
References: 
Message-ID: <002001c2cf36$152f4c00$162664d8@computer>

Marleen:  The practice was to hang a small banner with blue star for each
person in service.  You don't want the gold stars as that was for people
killed in the service.

Ed Lamme



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 17:53:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:53:09 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944
References: <000c01c2925e$88ce5580$f2bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <002001c2cf9a$f1eab800$6700a8c0@Home>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2CF60.44549880
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Fory - I just received my copy of "The Molesworth Story".
I see that you and your crew were among those forced to RON at Laon =
France to refuel before returning to Molesworth the following day. My =
Dad was a member of the Hatch crew on this mission and they were also =
among the crews that spent that night on the continent.
Were you able to do any sightseeing or make contact with the locals =
while you were in France on this trip?
Where were the crews billeted and fed while you were there? What sort of =
base was A-70? I assume that it was an auxiliary field and that 14 =
crews, over 100 airmen , might stretch their resources.
I seem to remember Dad once saying that rounding up all of the crew =
members for the return to England took a little searching.
Thanks and best regards, Gary Holtorf

(Thanks to Gary Moncur for the quick turnaround on my CD order. Great =
Job on the CD!)


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2CF60.44549880
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi Fory - I just received my copy of =
"The=20
Molesworth Story".


I see that you and your crew were =
among those=20
forced to RON at Laon France to refuel before returning to Molesworth =
the=20
following day. My Dad was a member of the Hatch crew on this mission and =
they=20
were also among the crews that spent that night on the=20
continent.


Were you able to do any sightseeing or =
make=20
contact with the locals while you were in France on this =
trip?


Where were the crews billeted and fed =
while you=20
were there? What sort of base was A-70? I assume that it was an =
auxiliary field=20
and that 14 crews, over 100 airmen , might stretch their =
resources.


I seem to remember Dad once =
saying that=20
rounding up all of the crew members for the return to England took =
a little=20
searching.


Thanks and best regards, Gary=20
Holtorf


 


(Thanks to Gary Moncur for the quick =
turnaround=20
on my CD order. Great Job on the CD!)


 


 


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2CF60.44549880--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:42:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:42:53 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-47 ^ GOLD STARS
In-Reply-To: <000901c2cf23$ba5a99e0$72bb9ace@mjpmtman>
Message-ID: <3E44DF2D.20743.BC6C2F@localhost>

 
> It was abandoned  in a hangar for lack of repairs zfter an emergency
>  landing at some other field. Some one [CO at the time???] sent mechanics to
> salvage it and after
>  stripping the armament it was flown to our base and used to form up the out
>  going formation and meet the returning formation. Don't recall who wrote
> the dissertation. --Harry Gobrecht ?????????

Re  P-47 ,   I captured an image from my 16mm movie taken on a couple 
missions in 1945, and a P-47 shows up at one point, apparently 
escorting a plane with an engine out. I captured an image.

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/afight2.jpg  

This is a VERY poor quality image, but it is definately a P-47.
Perhaps this is the 303rds P-47, because it is at a time in the war 
when supposedly the P-47s had been replaced by the newer fighters.




 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:46:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Smith)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 09:46:21 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Scorchy 2
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CF56.EFBA5B60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First I want to say hello to all my fellow Member's of the 303rd website =
and I'm happy to be apart to of this website. I'm right now I'm =
finishing up my model of the 303rd bomb group 17 Scorchy 2. I plan on =
making a diorama scene with this plane with it's ground crew making =
repair's on it and so fourth. I have tried digging up some information =
about this plane such as how many mission's it flew, and photo's of the =
plane, stories about the crew and so fourth to include in my project but =
have come up empty handed. I saw only one photo of the plane on the =
303rd website but that's it. If anyone has any information about this =
B-17 such as photo's, crew information and so fourth please let me know. =
I would even be interested in talking to some vet's who may have =
personal first hand knowledge of the aircraft. Any information would be =
helpful as I get started on the diorama. So once again a warm hello to =
all of you and it's great to be apart of the 303rd website forum.

Steve Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CF56.EFBA5B60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









First I want to say hello to all my fellow Member's of the 303rd =
website=20
and I'm happy to be apart to of this website. I'm right now I'm =
finishing up my=20
model of the 303rd bomb group 17 Scorchy 2. I plan on making a diorama =
scene=20
with this plane with it's ground crew making repair's on it and so =
fourth. I=20
have tried digging up some information about this plane such as how many =

mission's it flew, and photo's of the plane, stories about the crew and =
so=20
fourth to include in my project but have come up empty handed. I saw =
only one=20
photo of the plane on the 303rd website but that=92s it. If anyone has =
any=20
information about this B-17 such as photo's, crew information and so =
fourth=20
please let me know. I would even be interested in talking to some vet's =
who may=20
have personal first hand knowledge of the aircraft. Any information =
would be=20
helpful as I get started on the diorama. So once again a warm hello to =
all of=20
you and it's great to be apart of the 303rd website forum.

Steve=20
Smith


------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CF56.EFBA5B60--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 17:15:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:15:06 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Protecting Classified Data
References: <000c01c2925e$88ce5580$f2bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <001301c2cf96$6ee153a0$6700a8c0@Home>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2CF5A.F3FF5B40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Fory Barton=20
  To: 303rd - BGA=20
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:37 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] Protecting Classified Data


  A reference to destroying the Norden bomb sight and related papers =
reminded me that we RO's,who were given the "code of the day" for Morse =
message transmissions, were told to eat the rice paper flimsy in an =
emergency. Thus preventing the enemy from learning our code system.

  Fory Barton
  Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2CF5A.F3FF5B40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









 



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Fory =
Barton=20
  
  
  
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 =
12:37=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
Protecting=20
  Classified Data

  


  
A reference to destroying the Norden =
bomb=20
  sight and related papers reminded me that we RO's,who were given the =
"code of=20
  the day" for Morse message transmissions, were told to eat the rice =
paper=20
  flimsy in an emergency. Thus preventing the enemy from learning our =
code=20
  system.

  
 

  
Fory Barton

  
Kuykendalls=20
RO


------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2CF5A.F3FF5B40--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 18:37:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:37:45 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: 

Ton Boersma
     The Navigators had an extremely difficult and important job. It sounds 
easy. That job was to know exactly were from take off until back at our base 
so we would be sure and be half way between our navigation lights when we 
turned our bird back to the ground crews. Please read on.
     We used 4 basic forms of navigation.(1) Pilotage (just looking at a map 
and following it to your destination) (2) DR, Dead Reckoning (using your 
instruments to calculate your ground speed Wind, altitude, and course 
(3)Celestrial [Using stars and a sextant to establish your position. And (4) 
Radio To establish course and distance. I won't go into these as it would 
take to long and you can get that out of a book if you are interested or 
already know  There is a 5th method we use in the states but not over there 
called IFR.(I follow the Railroad)
     Each method has its limitations Celestial was out on missions as it only 
works well at night (No Stars in daylight and other problems)    Pilotage is 
subject to observing the ground which we often couldn't due to fog, clouds, 
vapor trails, smoke, poor visibility, & other factors. Radio was and is very 
accurate but subject to enemy jamming, interference, our altitude and 
distance from the stations. 
     Now you have the basics. Lets get back to your questions. What was the 
wing navigators there for?  If we had to leave the formation (Not if, When.)  
We lost one or two engines and had to get home alone.  Most or all the 
formation got shot down except us. Our stupid pilots couldn't fly formation 
and they didn't get washed out in cadets.  or why ever.  We knew where the 
enemy's anti aircraft guns were. We didn't want to fly over them. We were 
cowards. We found it much safer to pick our way around them. We were short of 
fuel of or had wounded aboard and didn't want to mill around hunting for the 
airport in the fog.    
     Could and would the wing navigators correct the lead Navigators faulty 
navigation? NO.   It took about 20 seconds for an anti aircraft shell to get 
up to our altitude. During that 20 seconds we would travel about one mile so 
the enemy gunners had to lead us about one mile (Talk to your duck hunting 
friends) If the lead Navigator changed course every 20 seconds the enemy 
gunner had to guess where we were going to be when his shell got up to us. 
This made it rough on the wing navigators but that was their job. To know 
exactly where we were. They knew our destination and general course but did 
not know exactly when, if, how much, our speed, altitude,temperature,etc 
would be when and if the lead Navigator did what ever he was going to do. The 
lead Navigaot did not plan that in advance either. He observed what was going 
on as to flak, enemy fighters in the area, clouds, our schedule, etc., &, 
etc., and made fast decisions. Some times they were even good ones.  Sherman 
was right.
     Best Wishes.    
       Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 16:43:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:43:38 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] eBay photo 303rd Knock Out Dropper
Message-ID: <003a01c2cf91$3bafcde0$8991c8cf@altonmain>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C2CF4E.2CB6A040
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3205240837&category=4727

it a URL for an item on eBay that some of you might be interested in, if
just to look at.
I have copied the photo, and attached it. Just a few hours left to bid.
I am not promoting it, just thought some of you might be interested.
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C2CF4E.2CB6A040
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
	name="Knock out Dropper.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Knock out Dropper.jpg"
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------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C2CF4E.2CB6A040--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:40:39 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marleen Eastin)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 09:40:39 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: 




Thank you so much for your answers to my question about the gold stars in the windows.  I definitely will not be putting a gold one up.  And pray that I won't have to ever.  I am not sure which one I will put up......silver, blue, or red!  I will do some research.


Thanks again!!


Marleen







 

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES.  Get 2 months FREE*.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 16:53:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:53:28 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
References: <20030208020221.47700.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002801c2cf92$a16634c0$7168db40@billowen>

Marleen, you placed the banner with a blue star in the window to indicate
that you had someone in the service. If you had someone killed then you
replaced it with a gold star. I still have the gold star we had for my
brother. I pray that all your stars will be blue....Bill Owen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] gold stars


> Yikes, Marleen!  Gold Stars meant someone in your
> family had been killed.  Silver Stars meant you had
> someone in the Service.  The Mother of the Sullivans
> had five Gold Stars in her window.
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 18:44:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:44:13 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunions
Message-ID: <3E4509AD.20272.1627659@localhost>

   This may sound like a strange question, but I'm curious whether 
anyone who was in the 360th attended a 360thBS reunion in Pittsburgh, 
back in the early 50s, or perhaps late 40s?
   Reason I ask, is that I have memories of going to the penthouse of 
a hotel with my father, when I was about 7 years old.  I was 
introduced to a person who was a counter-spy for the FBI, who was a 
hero at the time (his name was Matt Cvetic, of "I was a Communist for 
the FBI" fame )  .  I remember meeting the man, but I have had no 
memory of WHY.
   Well yesterday, I had a visit from my uncle, who is my only known 
relative who was around back then, and I asked him if he knew why, 
and he said, "Oh, yes, your father was arranging with him to speak at 
his AAF Squadron's reunion".    So I assume that there must have been 
a 360thBS reunion back then.
   I'm just curious whether anyone here might have attended that, and 
might remember a speach given by a spy?  

  Just curious.  





 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 21:28:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:28:52 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators (Correction)
Message-ID: 

Ton Boersma, 
     On my answer to you concerning Navigators I goofed. Please in the 2nd 
line after the word exactly insert "where we were" at all times during the 
mission.
     ThankYou,
             Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 22:16:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:16:20 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P-47
Message-ID: 

In a letter I got from Hal Orenstein (360) dated 7 Feb.,1987 (he  has since
passed on due to emphysema)....roommate Hal says:
Regarding the razorback Jug, it was Col. Raper's and named "Peck O' Trouble"
before he had it stripped and waxed for his personal use.  As you might
recall, this was "war-weary" and he subsequently swapped it for a much newer
model with bubble and dorsal fin".
Scrounging through my files I found a picture of this plane showing the name
in a ribbon flowing from the cowl which was also plastered with art work.

Orenstein got a purple heart over Gelsenkirchen and went on after the war to
be an L-1011 Captain for Eastern, where he flew for 30 years.  Cheers, Bob
Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 23:51:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:51:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: <000a01c2ceee$eed3ee40$18ec23c3@brigtta>
Message-ID: <000b01c2cfcd$11085800$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CF9A.C5AC1EA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HEY Ton:
Lead navigators were lead navigators because they did not make errors!!! =
Besides there wasa Wing  Lead, Group Lead  squadron Lead and for each =
position there was a deputy lead--do the math how many of these would be =
in error, anyway there was a restriction on radio talk.
If any one plane got knocked out of formation on a mission , that =
plane's naviagator better well know the geographical cocation of his =
aircraft so that he could give his pilot a flight path that would take =
them around flak emplacements and safely back to the shores of Jolly Old =
England. Pilots may be able to do pilotage, but when flying in overcast =
they do need help.
LeRoy Christenson, Navigator=20
                                                                         =
                                         ---                             =
         Original Message -----=20
  From: A. BOERSMA=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:21 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators


  I understand that every aircraft in a formation had its own navigator.
  What was his task as only the lead aircraft navigator led the =
formation.
  Could and would he call faulty navigation to the attention of the lead =
navigator ?

  Greetings from a spectator near the receiving end,
  Ton Boersma
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CF9A.C5AC1EA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









HEY Ton:


Lead navigators were lead navigators =
because they=20
did not make errors!!! Besides there wasa Wing  Lead, Group =
Lead =20
squadron Lead and for each position there was a deputy lead--do the math =
how=20
many of these would be in error, anyway there was a restriction on=20
radio talk.


If any one plane got knocked out of =
formation on a=20
mission , that plane's naviagator better well know the geographical =
cocation of=20
his aircraft so that he could give his pilot a flight path that would =
take them=20
around flak emplacements and safely back to the shores of Jolly Old =

England. Pilots may be able to do pilotage, but when flying in overcast =
they do=20
need help.


LeRoy Christenson, =
Navigator 


          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
     =20
---           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
=20
 Original Message ----- 



  From:=20
  A.=20
  BOERSMA 
  
  
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 =
3:21=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
navigators

  


  
I understand that every aircraft =
in a=20
  formation had its own navigator.

  
What was his task as only the lead =
aircraft=20
  navigator led the formation.

  
Could and would he call faulty =
navigation to the=20
  attention of the lead navigator ?

  
 

  
Greetings from a spectator near the =
receiving=20
  end,

  
Ton =
Boersma


------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CF9A.C5AC1EA0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 04:09:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:09:02 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Laon, France
Message-ID: <001801c2cff0$fb7143c0$4f9a46c6@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2CFBE.B03FC3E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

for Gary Holtorf in particular.
Reference the RON at Laon, I cannot recall our target that day at this =
moment but I recall the occasion. Several crews were airborne when the =
mission was delayed for some reason. So we circled until the mission =
resumed.
Therefore , we crews who circled did not have enough fuel to make it =
back.=20
Our billets was a big building that the Germans had used as a HQ. It was =
apparently used as an overnight spot for guys in our fix. A M/Sgt was in =
charge of the place.
Several JU-88's littered the strip and we looked them over. My =
recollection is that we were told to stay out of town as the populace =
was unhappy due to strafing jobs done by our fighters.
We gassed up next day and back to Molesworth.

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2CFBE.B03FC3E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









for Gary Holtorf in =
particular.


Reference the RON at Laon, I cannot =
recall our=20
target that day at this moment but I recall the occasion. Several crews =
were=20
airborne when the mission was delayed for some reason. So we circled =
until the=20
mission resumed.


Therefore , we crews who circled did =
not have=20
enough fuel to make it back. 


Our billets was a big building that =
the Germans=20
had used as a HQ. It was apparently used as an overnight spot for guys =
in our=20
fix. A M/Sgt was in charge of the place.


Several JU-88's littered the strip and =
we looked=20
them over. My recollection is that we were told to stay out of town as =
the=20
populace was unhappy due to strafing jobs done by our =
fighters.


We gassed up next day and back to=20
Molesworth.


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2CFBE.B03FC3E0--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 15:51:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 10:51:58 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944
In-Reply-To: <002001c2cf9a$f1eab800$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3127632718_4092783
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Ah, how well we remember the  Soest raid and the critical fuel situation,
> followed by permission to short stop (at  Orly, was it?) and  Pilot Fink=B9=
s
> reaction, despite our earnest pleas, =B3Waal, ah thank we can make it on th=
e
> fuel we=B9ve got.=B2  After all, who should know better than he, who flew
> precisely by the book.  By golly, we cleared the White Cliffs and fuel-st=
arved
> Number one quit, and approaching Molesworth there went Number Two, gaspin=
g for
> fuel.  We peeled off and were on the downwind when Number Three said Good=
-Bye
> and rounding on to final it was Adios to Number Four.  Fully confident, M=
ike
> Fink glided in and painted ol=B9 F-PU on the runway with four dead engines,=
 at
> which point we of the crew had to get out and push our aircraft back to t=
he
> revetment.  The good news was that we made it back safe and sound and the=
 bad
> news was no souvenirs from the RON in France. Lt Fink, we still love ya!
> Cheers, Bob Hand=20
>=20



--B_3127632718_4092783
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944



Ah, how well we remember the  Soest r=
aid and the critical fuel situation, followed by permission to short stop (a=
t  Orly, was it?) and  Pilot Fink’s reaction, despite our ea=
rnest pleas, “Waal, ah thank we can make it on the fuel we’ve go=
t.”  After all, who should know better than he, who flew precisel=
y by the book.  By golly, we cleared the White Cliffs and fuel-starved =
Number one quit, and approaching Molesworth there went Number Two, gasping f=
or fuel.  We peeled off and were on the downwind when Number Three said=
 Good-Bye and rounding on to final it was Adios to Number Four.  Fully =
confident, Mike Fink glided in and painted ol’ F-PU on the runway with=
 four dead engines, at which point we of the crew had to get out and push ou=
r aircraft back to the revetment.  The good news was that we made it ba=
ck safe and sound and the bad news was no souvenirs from the RON in France. =
Lt Fink, we still love ya!  Cheers, Bob Hand  











--B_3127632718_4092783--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 17:08:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:08:58 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: 
Message-ID: <030701c2d05d$f0949340$6700a8c0@Home>

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] navigators


> Ton Boersma
>      The Navigators had an extremely difficult and important job. It
sounds
> easy. That job was to know exactly were from take off until back at our
base
> so we would be sure and be half way between our navigation lights when we
> turned our bird back to the ground crews. Please read on.
>      We used 4 basic forms of navigation.(1) Pilotage (just looking at a
map
> and following it to your destination) (2) DR, Dead Reckoning (using your
> instruments to calculate your ground speed Wind, altitude, and course
> (3)Celestrial [Using stars and a sextant to establish your position. And
(4)
> Radio To establish course and distance. I won't go into these as it would
> take to long and you can get that out of a book if you are interested or
> already know  There is a 5th method we use in the states but not over
there
> called IFR.(I follow the Railroad)
>      Each method has its limitations Celestial was out on missions as it
only
> works well at night (No Stars in daylight and other problems)    Pilotage
is
> subject to observing the ground which we often couldn't due to fog,
clouds,
> vapor trails, smoke, poor visibility, & other factors. Radio was and is
very
> accurate but subject to enemy jamming, interference, our altitude and
> distance from the stations.
>      Now you have the basics. Lets get back to your questions. What was
the
> wing navigators there for?  If we had to leave the formation (Not if,
When.)
> We lost one or two engines and had to get home alone.  Most or all the
> formation got shot down except us. Our stupid pilots couldn't fly
formation
> and they didn't get washed out in cadets.  or why ever.  We knew where the
> enemy's anti aircraft guns were. We didn't want to fly over them. We were
> cowards. We found it much safer to pick our way around them. We were short
of
> fuel of or had wounded aboard and didn't want to mill around hunting for
the
> airport in the fog.
>      Could and would the wing navigators correct the lead Navigators
faulty
> navigation? NO.   It took about 20 seconds for an anti aircraft shell to
get
> up to our altitude. During that 20 seconds we would travel about one mile
so
> the enemy gunners had to lead us about one mile (Talk to your duck hunting
> friends) If the lead Navigator changed course every 20 seconds the enemy
> gunner had to guess where we were going to be when his shell got up to us.
> This made it rough on the wing navigators but that was their job. To know
> exactly where we were. They knew our destination and general course but
did
> not know exactly when, if, how much, our speed, altitude,temperature,etc
> would be when and if the lead Navigator did what ever he was going to do.
The
> lead Navigaot did not plan that in advance either. He observed what was
going
> on as to flak, enemy fighters in the area, clouds, our schedule, etc., &,
> etc., and made fast decisions. Some times they were even good ones.
Sherman
> was right.
>      Best Wishes.
>        Jack Rencher
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 18:30:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:30:59 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Gold Stars
Message-ID: <8.33f307f1.2b77f863@aol.com>

If I'm not mistaken, Gold stars meant that a member of the household was 
killed in action. I think blue stars were displayed to let people know 
someone from the household was serving. (one star for each)

The most tragic was the Sullivan brothers. All five sons were killed in 
action when their ship was torpedoed. They had all demanded to serve 
together, but after they were all killed the navy wouldn't allow brothers to 
serve together. Hope this helps.............Ford J. lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 20:15:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:15:59 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: 
Message-ID: <036d01c2d078$11b4a6e0$6700a8c0@Home>

I've noticed that the PFF (ground sensing radar) equipped A/C, that were
often used in lead and deputy lead positions, had an additional Navigator,
"Mickey Nav." on the crew. What was this crew members responsibility? (Why
was he called Mickey?) What was the nature of the equipment, type of
display, capability, etc? Was it a Navigational tool too or was it only used
for bomb aiming and IP identification. I have similar questions regarding
the GEE-H system. I assume that the GEE-H was a "localizer" like system that
provided intersecting "beams" the formation would use to make the run when
visibility was bad. Who operated this equipment? Was there an order of
preference for bomb aiming? ie. Visual, GEE-H then PFF. The Nordens were
certainly excellent, well known and well guarded devices, but it seems we
also had other, less well known, advanced technology available to deliver
ordinance.

I was a Bomb/Nav system tech. on B52s in the 60s. This was an integrated
Bombing and Navigation Radar system. I'm interested in how this equipment
evolved. The early model B52s still had an optical bomb-sight as well as the
radar bomb sight. Both were used enroute to update winds etc. for navigation
and bombing by observing groud track vs heading & airspeed. Altitude (AGL)
could be calibrated by observing the "radar hole". The nearest return would
be directly below the A/C and could be used to get true (ASL) over
geographical features of known elevation. Was the PFF system used in similar
ways?

Just an observation on my part: I did get the opportunity to ride along as
an in flight mechanic to work system problems that could not be duplicated
on the ground. On these flights my observation is that the Navigator was the
most active and nervous crewmember on board. Constantly checking and
cross-checking present position, wind assumptions, making celestial shots
etc. As soon as one round of checks using one method or Nav-aid was done,
he'd be off cross-checking using another. When, rarely, the Nav. would put
his pencil down, it wouldn't be 10 seconds before he'd pick it back up.

I'm sure that this was the case with the 303rd's Navigators as well, knowing
where you are, where you're supposed to be, how to get where you're going
and back home again, at all times, was an awesome responsiility. All the
while I'm sure the Germans were doing their best to make sure that whatever
Navigation Aids were available could not be relied on.

Thanks, Sorry to be so windy, Gary Holtorf



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 14:13:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:13:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Blue Stars
Message-ID: <001301c2d10e$a6ed1da0$269a46c6@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D0DC.5B787A40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding recent conversation concerning the stars displayed in windows =
during WW II, I dug out the one my father displayed and which I =
"inherited".
There were three blue stars on this one banner as I gad a brother in =
Field Artillery and another brother who joined the Navy.

Much to my surprise9I had forgotten this), my father had taken the 3 =
"ruptured ducks" we received at discharge and had sewn these emblems =
over the stars and had continued to display this in the window.

Does the ruptured duck ring a bell with anyone?

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D0DC.5B787A40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Regarding recent conversation =
concerning the=20
stars displayed in windows during WW II, I dug out the one my father =
displayed=20
and which I "inherited".


There were three blue stars on this =
one banner=20
as I gad a brother in Field Artillery and another brother who joined the =

Navy.


 


Much to my surprise9I had forgotten =
this), my=20
father had taken the 3 "ruptured ducks" we received at discharge and had =
sewn=20
these emblems over the stars and had continued to display this in the=20
window.


 


Does the ruptured duck ring a bell =
with=20
anyone?


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D0DC.5B787A40--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 23:09:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:09:19 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey
Message-ID: <001201c2d159$7170af20$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D127.267189E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gary
a long question about navigation
I will let any mickey-nav answer, beause I declined to take the =
opportunity to continue on to radar navigation school before going on to =
combat training
I recall that we referred to it as" mickey" in short for mickey =
mouse,--sort of tonque in cheek for the mish-mash of interconnected =
equipment, you know --it's a"mickey mouse operation"
There were navigators in the lead position---one doing DR navigation to =
constantly plot the formations position in air space and with =
information from say a rada fix by the "mickey Radar" nav. he would also =
plot wind speed direction  and also plot a groundreference postion; =
there was also  a pilotage navigator who would try to pick up ground =
reference points--cities, rivers, or whatever could be seen thru breaks =
in the undercast.
You are correct the navigator was a busy guy he had to be sure---of =
course the pilots were busy , slao, trying not to play bumper cars with =
the other planes in the formastion.
Believe me at the end of a long mission a navigator would be pooped out, =
after one shot of brandy or schotch you could almost carrry me back to =
the BOQ.
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator 
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D127.267189E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Gary


a long question about =
navigation


I will let any mickey-nav answer, =
beause I declined=20
to take the opportunity to continue on to radar navigation school before =
going=20
on to combat training


I recall that we referred to it as" =
mickey" in=20
short for mickey mouse,--sort of tonque in cheek for the mish-mash of=20
interconnected equipment, you know --it's a"mickey mouse =
operation"


There were navigators in the lead =
position---one=20
doing DR navigation to constantly plot the formations position in air =
space and=20
with information from say a rada fix by the "mickey Radar" nav. he would =
also=20
plot wind speed direction  and also plot a groundreference postion; =
there=20
was also  a pilotage navigator who would try to pick up ground =
reference=20
points--cities, rivers, or whatever could be seen thru breaks in the=20
undercast.


You are correct the navigator was a =
busy guy he had=20
to be sure---of course the pilots were busy , slao, trying not to play =
bumper=20
cars with the other planes in the formastion.


Believe me at the end of a long mission =
a navigator=20
would be pooped out, after one shot of brandy or schotch you could =
almost carrry=20
me back to the BOQ.


LeRoy Christenson


Navigator 


------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D127.267189E0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 20:59:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:59:42 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: <125.1e0f0055.2b796cbe@aol.com>

  Gary Holtorf
       Re questions on PFF and GEE-H.  I was hoping someone else would answer 
you as PFF crews, as far as I know were especially trained lead crews and I 
was never so trained so I know very little about them or their methods. Not 
so with the GEE-H.
     When we first got to England, before we were assigned to a Bomb Group, 
The Pilots and Navigators Were sent to a base near London (It might have been 
named Bovington. My forgetter has worked) It lasted about 2 weeks or so and 
was a lifesaver several time for our crew.  I experimented with it 
extensively and loved it. It was unbelievably and extremely accurate.
     It was a radio system of getting a fix and navigating.  It consisted of 
3 radio stations. A Master station and 2 slave stations. It measured your 
distance from the two slave stations by measuring the TIME it took a signal 
to get to your position from the two slave stations (An unknown distance) as 
a ratio of the time it took the signal to get from the Master station to each 
of the slave stations.(A known distance) It was accurate to less than 5 feet. 
The information for the Navigator was displayed on a scope about 4 inches in 
diameter. It could be adjusted by the operator to cover maybe less than 50 
feet or so or up to many miles on the scope.  There were two pairs of lines 
on the scope; The two lines of one pair were horizontal and about 
one-sixteenth of an inch apart. Each line had a bip on it that was about a 
1/4 long. The top lines bip went up. The bottom lines bip went down. This was 
shown on the top half of the little scope. The second pair of lines were 
displayed in the bottom half of the scope and were a duplication of the upper 
pair. Each of the pairs of lines were the receiving end of one of the two 
slave stations.  On each pair of lines one of the bips showed where you are 
in relation to it's station and the bip moved as you got closer or farther 
away. from that station. The other bip on the pair of lines could be adjusted 
by the operator to where he wanted to go from his special GEE-H map.  When 
the two bips were exactly one above the other you were exactly were you had 
set on your map. When you had both pairs of bips lined up you had an EXACT  
FIX
      Rex Markt, our navigator, And I worked out a system using the G for 
instruments landings.  We would draw an imaginary line through the center 
line our runway and extend it 10 or 12 miles down wind and home to that 
position. We would get to that position at about 1000 feet and take the 
runway heading at about 120 MPH We would first kill our drift until we were 
maintaining a course parallel with our center line and note the exact course 
on the gyro compass. Then I would get back on the center line and pick up our 
course on the gyro compass. I'd get the gear and flaps down. Airspeed down to 
about 100 depending on load and altitude down to about 300 feet. Rex would 
say" 1 mile 5 feet right of center. I wouldn't try to turn for 5 feet but 
hold a bit of left rudder just a bit. Get down to150 feet or so and 95 MPH or 
so with just a bit of power on. If I got off the center line over 2 or 3 feet 
Rex would say so. I'd use just a bit of rudder again. Next Rex would announce 
 200 feet off the end. II'd get down to 40 feet on the altimeter. I'd get 
down to 30 feet and 85-90 MPH Then head for 20 feet when Rex would say you 
are over the end of runway. I'd pray, Pull most of the power off raise the 
nose and wait for the squeak. We practiced this when we could see. We 
probably did this 10 times or so never missed the runway once.
     One time we went up to test fly a plane that had aborted from a mission. 
The Squadron Engineering Officer who was not a pilot went as copilot. We had 
Rex of Course and Gus our engineer. When we landed it was absolutely 00. 
After we got on the ground and stopped we opened the window, stuck our head 
out and could not see the ground with a flashlight. It was daytime.  When we 
landed the Engineering Officer was very nervous.  I touched down a little 
tail first and bounced. The Engineering Officer started counting the bounces 
to hide his nervousness. When he got up to six I said. You just as well not 
count. I'm not going around.  
        Best Wishes,
             Jack  
      PS Yes we could bomb with this after D-day when they put some stations 
in France but not too far behind our lines.  It wasn't to long range.  I 
think this might be an early version of Loran but I am not sure. Visible bomb 
runs were our preference no doubt. What was 2nd I'll have to leave up to the 
Bombardiers but I doubt if they will all agree. Radar was probably our 2nd 
choice but it was not precision at all.       


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 21:02:03 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:02:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Blue Stars
In-Reply-To: <001301c2d10e$a6ed1da0$269a46c6@computer>
Message-ID: <20030210210203.25556.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>

 It sure does. One remains on my battle jacket to this
day..........Bill Runnels


> Much to my surprise9I had forgotten this), my father
> had taken the 3 "ruptured ducks" we received at
> discharge and had sewn these emblems over the stars
> and had continued to display this in the window.
> 
> Does the ruptured duck ring a bell with anyone?
> 
> Fory
> Kuykendalls RO


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 22:09:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:09:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead
In-Reply-To: <000b01c2cfcd$11085800$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030210220943.60145.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

How many missions would a new pilot have to fly before
he could be assigned as a lead or deputy lead.  I know
it varied based on the quality of the person, but are
there any general guidelines?  Five, ten missions?
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 23:16:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:16:50 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Valentine
Message-ID: <001b01c2d15a$7e0df160$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2D128.33305DE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill Runnels

Don't have your email address at hand, but just received via snail mail =
a valentine message from the Taylors at JAC, Molesworth, which =
acknowledged the receipt of my thankyou message for the annual Christmas =
Card that personnel have been seding to us oldies.
They mentioned your name as having replied in the same manner.

LeRoy Christenson
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2D128.33305DE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Bill Runnels


 


Don't have your email address at hand, =
but just=20
received via snail mail a valentine message from the Taylors at JAC, =
Molesworth,=20
which acknowledged the receipt of my thankyou message for the annual =
Christmas=20
Card that personnel have been seding to us oldies.


They mentioned your name as having =
replied in the=20
same manner.


 


LeRoy =
Christenson


------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2D128.33305DE0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 00:20:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:20:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Valentine
In-Reply-To: <001b01c2d15a$7e0df160$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030211002048.58751.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>

Leroy, I also received the valentine card and message
in which they mentioned your name. They sure seem like
nice people. I guess they had a good time in Texas
during their Christmas leave.........Bill


--- Leroy Audrey  wrote:
> Bill Runnels
> 
> Don't have your email address at hand, but just
> received via snail mail a valentine message from the
> Taylors at JAC, Molesworth, which acknowledged the
> receipt of my thankyou message for the annual
> Christmas Card that personnel have been seding to us
> oldies.
> They mentioned your name as having replied in the
> same manner.
> 
> LeRoy Christenson


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 01:22:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:22:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey
In-Reply-To: <001201c2d159$7170af20$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030211012209.62236.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Leroy:  It is my understanding the term "Mickey" for
H2S and H2X came from the headset worn my them that
looed sort of like Mickey Mouse ears. (Just something
I read in a book somewhere.)

My hat is off to you Navigators!  

Anyone read Harry Crosby's (100th BG Navigator) "A
Wing and a Prayer: The Bloody 100th Bomb Group of the
Us Eighth Air Force in Action over Europe in World War
II."  I thought this was a pretty good book.  Cosby
was lead 8th AF Navigator on number of missions.  I
recommend it if you want to know how they got 1,000+
ships in formation and all heading in the right
direction.

Kevin

--- Leroy Audrey  wrote:
> Gary
> a long question about navigation
> I will let any mickey-nav answer, beause I declined
> to take the opportunity to continue on to radar
> navigation school before going on to combat training
> I recall that we referred to it as" mickey" in short
> for mickey mouse,--sort of tonque in cheek for the
> mish-mash of interconnected equipment, you know
> --it's a"mickey mouse operation"
> There were navigators in the lead position---one
> doing DR navigation to constantly plot the
> formations position in air space and with
> information from say a rada fix by the "mickey
> Radar" nav. he would also plot wind speed direction 
> and also plot a groundreference postion; there was
> also  a pilotage navigator who would try to pick up
> ground reference points--cities, rivers, or whatever
> could be seen thru breaks in the undercast.
> You are correct the navigator was a busy guy he had
> to be sure---of course the pilots were busy , slao,
> trying not to play bumper cars with the other planes
> in the formastion.
> Believe me at the end of a long mission a navigator
> would be pooped out, after one shot of brandy or
> schotch you could almost carrry me back to the BOQ.
> LeRoy Christenson
> Navigator 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 01:33:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:33:02 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead
Message-ID: <113.1ecf7183.2b79acce@aol.com>

Kevin; 
     My opinion only. The number of missions had little to do with making a 
lead Pilot.  Many of them who were capable were on their 2nd tour. A few of 
them got there because of who they knew, good old boyed around with or what 
they did before they got there. A few of them should have been washed out in 
cadets. Most of them probably had over 25 missions or so. Many of the very 
best pilots in the group never were lead pilots because no one knew it except 
their crews. In fact the 3 very best 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force 
finished their 35 missions and were rotated and never became lead pilots and 
two of those 3 were not even first pilots. They were copilots.  A very few 
pilots finished their missions and/or became lead pilots because their 
copilot carried them through, covered their mistakes, over ruled their errors 
in judgment and held their crews together.  Without their exceptional 
copilots these few and their crews would probably never have survived their 
first 10 missions.
     Remember: 50% of any group are below average. Yes, that includes lead 
pilots.                   
       Best Wishes,  
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 01:34:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:34:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prop Wash
In-Reply-To: <030701c2d05d$f0949340$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <20030211013450.80589.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

I have heard that if you flew through another groups
prop wash that was ahead of you, that it got mighty
bumpy and tight formations would fall apart.  Further,
if you encountered prop wash in a turn, it would most
certainly spread your formation out.  Agree or
disagree?

How far behind a B-17 was the prop wash a problem?  I
know for us puddle jumper pilots (we really do use
rubber bands, don't we Jack?) we avoid prop wash and
wake turbulence at all costs.  I've been in wake
turbulance (a C-130 descending above and in front of
me for final - it wasn't a fun time.....), but what
does prop wash feel like?  Is it like being behind an
18 wheeler in a terrible wind storm in a VW Bug?

I continue to appreciate all of your responses.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 01:47:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:47:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf
In-Reply-To: <20030210220943.60145.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030211014729.90300.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Gary:  Just read your full message and since no one
else is repsonding, please read the following:

An important factor in Bomber Command's future lay in
the new equipment it expected.  Most important were a
series of electronic aids to navigation and bombing:
Gee, Oboe, and H2S.  (The latter two did not come into
service until the winter of 1942 - 1943, but it is
convenient to describe them all at this point.)  It
cannot be too strongly emphasized Bomber Command's
effectiveness would depend on these three devices.
Gee consisted of three ground stations in Britain and
a receiver in the plane using it.  A "master" station
(A) controlled two widely separated "slave" stations
(B and C); the three broadcast synchronized identical
pulses similar to those used in radar.  A navigator
using Gee measured the differences in time of arrival
of the pulses from the three stations as they were
displayed on a small cathoderay tube.  His plane's
position could then be located on a special
color-coded Gee chart.  The resulting fix varied in
accuracy from under half a mile (sometime far less, in
skilled hands) to about five miles, depending on the
navigator's ability and the range from Britain.  Gee's
range also varied; in practice it could not be counted
on east of the Ruhr.  It could be used by any number
of planes and, unlike the German devices used in 1940
- 1941, gave the enemy no clue as to the intended
target.
Gee had been proposed by R. J. Dippy of the
Telecommunications Research Establishment (T.R.E.) as
early as 1938, but its development was not pushed
because its range was thought to be short.  Concerted
work began only in June 1940, when the Air Staff began
worrying about the accuracy of navigation.  It was
successfully demonstrated late in 1940, but problems
in producing a vital tube, and the Ministry of
Aircraft Production's mishandling of the problem of
installing it in planes, delayed its introduction.
In August 1941, preproduction Gee sets were used by
Wellingtons in trials over Germany.  Only three
missions were flown, but one of the planes was lost. 
The British feared the system had been compromised;
the Germans might have salvaged the equipment or maps,
or learned something from prisoners.  Because of this,
Reginald V. Jones, head of scientific intelligence for
the Air Staff, set up an ingenious scheme to trick the
enemy into thinking the British were using another
device, the J-Beam, so the Germans would assume they
had mistaken "J" for the similar-sounding letter "G." 
Misinformation about "J" was fed to German spies
operating in Britain under British control.  A whole
J-Beam system was devised; it was a copy of the German
Knickebein system, which could be used with standard
RAF gear.  During the winter of 1941 - 1942, J-Beams
were actually broadcast; in fact, they were of some
use to RAF navigators until the Germans jammed them. 
The Gee receiver was given a new type of number to
lead the Germans to think it was a simple radio
transceiver, while the Gee signals were subtly
altered.
Gee came into service on March 8, 1942.  It radically
improved Bomber Command’s navigation and ability to
concentrate attacks, and saved many planes returning
home to their bases.  The Germans recovered a damaged
Gee set on March 29 and began jamming Gee on August 4.
A simple circuit modification gave some relief from
jamming for a time, but the Germans soon rendered Gee
useless over most of occupied Europe to most
navigators.  (Skilled men could distinguish the
jamming signal from the genuine article as long as the
signal strength of the latter was high.)
A new Mark II Gee set, with wider frequency coverage,
was introduced in February 1943.  It allowed the Gee
stations and navigators to make predetermined changes
of frequency while the bombers were en route to a
target.  That only gave temporary relief, but Gee
remained a tremendous help in the first and last
stages of a flight, saving many planes throughout the
war.  The Americans adopted Gee and used a similar
device, called Loran, which used a longer wavelength
and had a much longer range.  Gee also guided ships
and landing craft in the great amphibious operations
of the war.  The Germans finally paid it the ultimate
compliment - they used captured Gee equipment and maps
to guide their air attacks on Britain in 1944.6
Unlike Gee, Oboe, devised by A. H. Reeves and F. E.
Jones of the T.R.E., proved to be a true blind-bombing
device.  It guided a plane right to the target itself.
 Two ground stations, Cat and Mouse, broadcasting on
the same frequency, controlled a single plane.  The
Cat station's beam kept the plane on course, and the
Mouse indicated the point at which the bombs should be
dropped.  A pulse repeater in the plane amplified and
retransmitted signals from the ground stations,
enabling them to determine the plane's range.  An
Oboe-carrying plane normally navigated by other means
to within ten miles of the target, then settled on the
beam from the Cat.  The pilot heard a continuous note
in his earphones if he was on course, dots and dashes
if he was off course.  The Mouse warned the plane when
it was near the target, then transmitted a
bomb-release signal.  Oboe was very accurate - it
could be used to drop bombs with an average error of
400 yards - but had severe limitations.  At first, one
pair of Cat and Mouse stations could control just one
plane at a time, although later a system of
multichannel control would enable them to control
more.  And Oboe was a purely line-of-sight device,
with a maximum range of 270 miles for a plane flying
at 28,000 feet.  It was of little use for targets east
of the Ruhr until ground stations were moved to France
after D-Day.  A repeater system was developed, using
planes to relay signals from ground stations in
Britain to the Oboe planes, but the RAF hardly used
it.  A plane using Oboe also had to fly a very
straight course.  The British therefore used it mainly
as a target-market device, putting it on Mosquitos,
which could fly higher and faster than the heavies;
they would drop markers for the main force.
In December 1941, a crude form of Oboe had been used
by two Stirling squadrons to bomb the German ships at
Brest, but it had proved unreliable.  In April 1942, a
better system was successfully tested, but its
introduction into service, originally planned for
July, was delayed until December.  It turned out Oboe
was more accurate than the available maps; to
calibrate map grids for it, the British had to
undertake a special operation.  Oboe Mosquitos bombed
a German night-fighter sector headquarters in Belgium
and the results were reported by Belgian agents,
enabling the British to make the necessary
corrections.  Oboe made a gigantic difference in the
accuracy of British bombing, and might have made an
even bigger one had it been better exploited.  The
Mosquitos were rarely shot down, and the Germans did
not recover any Oboe equipment until 1944.  They began
trying to jam the original 1.5 meter Oboe in August
1943, but had little success until November.  By then,
the British were introducing a new version of Oboe
using 12 centimeter wavelengths.  Only near the end of
the war did the Germans have some success in jamming
this Mark II Oboe.7
H2S was the first major electronic aid sought by
Bomber Command, but its development was prolonged and
difficult.  It had been noted, early in the
development of radar, different surface features
returned different sorts of echos; this inspired the
idea of an airborne radar map-reading device.  H2S was
a downward-looking radar which scanned the area under
a plane.  The resulting picture was displayed on a
cathode-ray tube called a Plan Position Indicator - a
type of radar display far easier to use than earlier
devices.  Unlike Gee and Oboe, H2S was self-contained;
it did not depend on ground stations.  It could be
used on any number of planes.  Reading the picture,
however, was a tricky business; using H2S took great
skill.  Coasts, lakes, and rivers always stood out
well, and towns and cities could be picked out from
the surrounding countryside.  Sometimes small areas or
even railroad lines could be identified, but it was
often hard to tell which town or what part of a city
was on the screen.  Hamburg, located on an estuary,
gave a clear picture, but Berlin, inland and spread
out, gave a very bad one.  H2S was thus more of a
navigational than a bomb-aiming device, though it
served as the latter beyond Oboe range.
Ludlow-Hewitt had wanted such a device as early as
1938, but there seems to have been no drive behind it
until the Butt report.  Developing H2S posed a
difficult dilemma for the whole Allied cause. 
Generating the really high powered 10-centimeter radar
waves necessary for a useful radar map required the
use of the highly secret cavity magnetron tube,
developed in 1940 by J. H. Randall and Harry Boot. 
The magnetron gave the Allies a lead in microwave
radar the Germans never overcame.  But, using it in
H2S would expose it to capture and duplication by the
enemy, perhaps undermining the similar 10-centimeter
airborne radar used against the U-boats.  Many people,
including the Air Staff for a time, opposed using the
magnetron in H2S and wished to employ the older
klystron tube, although it had much lower power.  Only
proof of the klystron's inadequacy and prolonged
argument persuaded the Air Staff to allow use of the
magnetron.  Sir Robert Watson-Watt, the inventor of
radar, persuasively argued it would take the enemy a
year to eighteen months to duplicate it.
In June 1942, the project suffered a terrible setback
when half the development team was killed in an air
crash while testing H2S.  It was finally introduced,
in small numbers, only in January 1943.  Later a
three-centimeter version was introduced.  The Germans
recovered an H2S set, without a cathode-ray tube, from
a shot-down plane as early as February 1943, but it
took them some time to realize what it was.  By the
fall of 1943, they had developed a compact warning
device, Naxos, for installation in U-boats and planes
to detect the ten-centimeter radars.  Night fighters
using it could track British bombers from 50
kilometers; Korfu, a similar ground-based device,
could track bombers at a range of 125 miles and even
pick up transmissions from H2S sets being tested in
Britain.  Since the British were effectively jamming
German radar by then, this was a great help to the
Germans.  After they captured a Naxos set in mid-1944,
the British imposed a partial H2S silence on their
planes; the sets were only turned on for short periods
when absolutely necessary.  Despite the Germans'
ability to turn it against the Allies, H2S was
extremely valuable.  The British developed a
three-centimeter version of it, which the Americans
copied as H2X, better known to air crews as Mickey.8


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 03:54:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:54:22 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] mickey
Message-ID: <003e01c2d181$438262c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2D14E.F89BA780
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The british called the H2S system "Stinky", this preceeded the H2X.  The =
main control box containing the scope was usually refered to as the =
mickey box.
Who really knows how it got it's name? some of the navigators who had to =
work with malfunctioning units probaly had a few choice other names for =
it.
LeRoy Christenson
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2D14E.F89BA780
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









The british called the H2S system =
"Stinky", this=20
preceeded the H2X.  The main control box containing the scope was =
usually=20
refered to as the mickey box.


Who really knows how it got it's name? =
some of the=20
navigators who had to work with malfunctioning units probaly had a few =
choice=20
other names for it.


LeRoy =
Christenson


------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2D14E.F89BA780--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 04:00:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:00:55 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: <125.1e0f0055.2b796cbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <070101c2d182$2ea4c860$6700a8c0@Home>

Jack - Thanks for the very detailed response on the GEE system, particularly
the very practical use you put it to, to get home in the bad weather you so
often had to deal with. - Gary Holtorf



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 04:14:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:14:46 EST
Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: <1cd.24447fd.2b79d2b6@aol.com>

--part1_1cd.24447fd.2b79d2b6_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part1_1cd.24447fd.2b79d2b6_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: 
From: Coxbije@aol.com
Full-name: Coxbije
Message-ID: <111.1fe85bcd.2b79a80c@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:12:44 EST
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] navigators
To: Jprencher@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_1cd.24447fd.2b79a80c_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230


--part2_1cd.24447fd.2b79a80c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Jack, you might inform the gentleman about the, at least three, missions 
that the 303rd flew using the GEE-H system for bombing.
  One was on July 5, 1944  Mission No. 196.    The target was just across the 
English Channel to an Airdrome in Holland.   Because of the cloud cover over 
the target, the result was unknown.

  Another was Mission No. 210   Target was an Airdrome at Creil, France.  
Again the clouds prevented seeing the results.

 A third mission was No. 234. Target was V-1  Launching sites at Pas de 
Calais Area.  in France.  Results, Unknown,  10/10 cloud cover.

Seems they had to wait a long time to really see the results of that system 
for bombing. 
    Bill

--part2_1cd.24447fd.2b79a80c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  Jack, you might inform the gentleman about the,=
 at least three, missions that the 303rd flew using the GEE-H system for bom=
bing.

  One was on July 5, 1944  Mission No. 196.    The=20=
target was just across the English Channel to an Airdrome in Holland. &=
nbsp; Because of the cloud cover over the target, the result was unknown.


  Another was Mission No. 210   Target was an Airdrome at Cre=
il, France.  Again the clouds prevented seeing the results.



 A third mission was No. 234. Target was V-1  Launching sites at Pas de=
 Calais Area.  in France.  Results, Unknown,  10/10 cloud cov=
er.



Seems they had to wait a long time to really see the results of that system=20=
for bombing. 

    Bill

--part2_1cd.24447fd.2b79a80c_boundary--

--part1_1cd.24447fd.2b79d2b6_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 04:08:54 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:08:54 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P-47
References: 
Message-ID: <071401c2d183$4c698560$6700a8c0@Home>

I found a couple of photos of this P-47 in my Dad's scrapbook. I also found
a front page newspaper clipping from the London "Daily Mail", Feb. 23, 1945,
that shows what appears to be the line up for take off. In any case the
"Jug" is off to the side on the taxiway in this newspaper photo.
Santa didn't come through with a scanner, but I'm going to correct his
oversight soon and will forward these to Gary M.
Gary Holtorf

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hand" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:16 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P-47


> In a letter I got from Hal Orenstein (360) dated 7 Feb.,1987 (he  has
since
> passed on due to emphysema)....roommate Hal says:
> Regarding the razorback Jug, it was Col. Raper's and named "Peck O'
Trouble"
> before he had it stripped and waxed for his personal use.  As you might
> recall, this was "war-weary" and he subsequently swapped it for a much
newer
> model with bubble and dorsal fin".
> Scrounging through my files I found a picture of this plane showing the
name
> in a ribbon flowing from the cowl which was also plastered with art work.
>
> Orenstein got a purple heart over Gelsenkirchen and went on after the war
to
> be an L-1011 Captain for Eastern, where he flew for 30 years.  Cheers, Bob
> Hand
>
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 04:22:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:22:41 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf
References: <20030211014729.90300.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <071c01c2d185$39393060$6700a8c0@Home>

Thanks Kevin - I really appreciate your research and your taking the time to
respond. It's clear to me that the PPI ground map radar system I worked on,
used on Cold war and VietNam era B52s was more closely related to the WWII
H2S system than to todays technology. We did use a tunable magnetron, but to
avoid jamming, the RN (Radar Nav / Bombardier) could take a peek, shut down,
change frequency and peek again. (This system was designed to deliver nukes,
close counts, a "shack" is a good thing but...) Where did the term PPF fit
in? Was it essentially a designation for H2S equipped A/C or a different
system? - Thanks again for your time and effort, Gary



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 04:36:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:36:04 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Fw: I liked this one...
Message-ID: 

--part1_ca.17bde822.2b79d7b4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



--part1_ca.17bde822.2b79d7b4_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-Path: 
Received: from  rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v90_r2.5) with ESMTP id MAILINXD53-0210202406; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:24:06 -0500
Received: from  pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.6) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD56-0210202341; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:23:41 -0500
Received: from cpe-24-221-63-192.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.63.192] helo=leroy-4eqdow74q)
	by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
	id 18iP99-00055U-00; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:23:39 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <3E485092.000001.01620@leroy-4eqdow74q>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:23:30 -0700
Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative;
  boundary="------------Boundary-00=_6JE4QL80000000000000"
X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850928)
From: "Dusty Laine" 
X-FID: D99F6F76-604F-4241-83E7-840B46C6169F
X-FVER: 
X-FIT: 
X-FCOL: 
X-FCAT: 
X-FDIS: 
X-BG: <>
X-BGT: repeat
X-BGC: repeat
X-BGPX: 0px
X-BGPY: 0px
X-ASN: repeat
X-ASNF: repeat
X-ASH: repeat
X-ASHF: repeat
X-AN: repeat
X-ANF: repeat
X-AP: repeat
X-APF: repeat
X-AD: repeat
X-ADF: repeat
X-AUTO: X-ASN,X-ASH,X-AN,X-AP,X-AD
X-CNT: ;
X-Priority: 3
To: "Annie Wiggins" , "Bob Thomas" ,
        "Cindy" , "Clarine Boyd" ,
        "derek@online.de" , "Ken & Laura" ,
        "Mike" , "Reba Mollindo" ,
        "Sheila" , "Andy" ,
        "Jack" 
Subject: Fw: I liked this one...
Disposition-Notification-To: "Dusty Laine" 


--------------Boundary-00=_6JE4QL80000000000000
Content-Type: Text/Plain;
  charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



=20

=20



Charles Schultz Philosophy=20

You don't actually have to take the quiz. Just read the email straight
through, and you'll get the point (an awesome one) that it is trying to
make!=20



1. Name the five wealthiest people in the world.=20



2. Name the last five Heisman trophy winners.=20



3. Name the last five winners of the Miss America contest.=20



4. Name ten people who have won the Nobel or Pulitzer prize.=20



5. Name the last half dozen Academy Award winners for best actor and actress
=20



6. Name the last decade's worth of World Series winners.=20



How did you do?=20





The point is, none of us remember the headliners of=20

yesterday. These are no second-rate achievers. They are the best in their
fields.=20



But the applause dies. Awards tarnish. Achievements are forgotten.=20

Here's another quiz. See how you do on this one:=20



1. List a few teachers who aided your journey through school.=20



2. Name three friends who have helped you through a difficult time.=20



3. Name five people who have taught you something=20

worthwhile.=20



4. Think of a few people who have made you feel=20

appreciated and special.=20



5. Think of five people you enjoy spending time with.=20



6. Name half a dozen heroes whose stories have inspired=20

you.=20



Easier?=20



The people who make a difference in your life are not the ones with the most
credentials, the most money, or the most awards.=20



They are the ones that care.=20



Pass this on to those people who have made a difference in your life.=20



"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.=20

It's already tomorrow in Australia ."=20

=20

--------------Boundary-00=_6JE4QL80000000000000
Content-Type: Text/HTML;
  charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


















 


 

Charles Schultz Philosophy 
Y=
ou don't actually have to take the quiz. Just read the email straight throug=
h, and you'll get the point (an awesome one) that it is trying to make! 
=

1. Name the five wealthiest people in the world. 

2. Name the las=
t five Heisman trophy winners. 

3. Name the last five winners of the=20=
Miss America contest. 

4. Name ten people who have won the Nobel or P=
ulitzer prize. 

5. Name the last half dozen Academy Award winners for=
 best actor and actress. 

6. Name the last decade's worth of World Se=
ries winners. 

How did you do? 


The point is, none of us r=
emember the headliners of 
yesterday. These are no second-rate achievers.=
 They are the best in their fields. 

But the applause dies. Awards ta=
rnish. Achievements are forgotten. 
Here's another quiz. See how you do o=
n this one: 

1. List a few teachers who aided your journey through sc=
hool. 

2. Name three friends who have helped you through a difficult=20=
time. 

3. Name five people who have taught you something 
worthwhi=
le. 

4. Think of a few people who have made you feel 
appreciated=20=
and special. 

5. Think of five people you enjoy spending time with. <=
BR>
6. Name half a dozen heroes whose stories have inspired 
you. 
=

Easier? 

The people who make a difference in your life are not th=
e ones with the most credentials, the most money, or the most awards. 
They are the ones that care. 

Pass this on to those people who have=
 made a difference in your life. 

"Don't worry about the world coming=
 to an end today. 
It's already tomorrow in Australia ." 

 














--------------Boundary-00=_6JE4QL80000000000000--

--part1_ca.17bde822.2b79d7b4_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 05:12:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:12:42 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prop Wash
Message-ID: <11c.1e9592a4.2b79e04a@aol.com>

Kevin,
     As you well know this is a hard one for a precise answer. My opinion 
only If you were in a B17 behind another B17 I would not worry if I was say 
15 seconds behind him. If I was in a C2 Aronica on final I would be concerned 
if I was 3 minutes behind him especially if he was a bigger bird than a B17 
and coming in hanging it on the props. I suspect if you turned a formation of 
B17 15 seconds behind an other formation of B17s it would cause you no more 
problems than normal rough air. As I look back 58 years I think vapor trails 
caused us more problems than prop wash when we were behind. As I look back 10 
minutes I think the 58 years has caused me more problems than a 100 mile long 
line of B17s even if I was the last plane in the last Squadron in the last 
group.  Good Night Kevin.
     Best Wishes,
         Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 13:01:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:01:57 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf
In-Reply-To: <071c01c2d185$39393060$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <3E48ADF5.28.288DD4@localhost>

 
>   Where did the term PPF fit
> in? Was it essentially a designation for H2S equipped A/C or a different
> system? - 

I'm probably wrong on this, but it was my impression that the H2S was 
the British version of the radar system, but the Americans adapted 
this into a better shorter wavelength version that was called H2X 
and/or PFF.  So I think that the H2S isn't exactly the same thing.  
The USAAF B-17s radar antenna sat in a radome that replaced the ball 
turret.  It is my understanding (again, may be wrong), that the 
British H2S, being lower frequency, used a more conventional antenna 
mounted out on the wings or something like that.
    I think this seems to be a sensitive topic because the British 
consider themselves the inventors of the RADAR, and rightly so, but 
the US had been working on it too, and eventually came up with a 
significantly different version they considered better. 
   I assume that early in the war, that the US planes must have used 
the British version, but I'm not sure. 
   I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  :-) 


 I assume that at least part of the PFF designation must refer to 
"Pathfinder", but that might be wrong too.
   Also,  I wonder if there is any possibility that the "micky" 
operator term came at least partly from the term "microwave", in 
addition to "Mickey Mouse", which I like too??
 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 13:43:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 05:43:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ruptured Duck (Was Blue Stars)
Message-ID: <20030211134322.68665.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-609228210-1044971002=:68291
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


  Dad told me when he arrived back in the States from Molesworth / Chelveston they were taken from NYC up the Hudson River by "Circle Liners" to Piermont NY. Loaded on a Troop Train (Erie RR) and taken to what was then Stewart Army Airfield in NY. As they arrived German POW's were doing manual labor along the tracks, when they saw that the train had "Flyers" on board they all started to collect ballast to throw at them! The MP's put a very quick stop to this he said. They were then unloaded from the Troop Train then marched past the German's who were forced to stand at attention out to a large hanger where a wonderfull steak dinner was prepared by Italian POW's working there. It was here that an Italian POW sewn on Dad's Ruptured Duck. Dad well recall's his first encounter with the enemy after five months flying over them!
Todd-
 From: bill runnels 
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Blue Stars
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com


It sure does. One remains on my battle jacket to this
day..........Bill Runnels


> Much to my surprise9I had forgotten this), my father
> had taken the 3 "ruptured ducks" we received at
> discharge and had sewn these emblems over the stars
> and had continued to display this in the window.
> 
> Does the ruptured duck ring a bell with anyone?
> 
> Fory
> Kuykendalls RO






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
--0-609228210-1044971002=:68291
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


  Dad told me when he arrived back in the States from Molesworth / Chelveston they were taken from NYC up the Hudson River by "Circle Liners" to Piermont NY. Loaded on a Troop Train (Erie RR) and taken to what was then Stewart Army Airfield in NY. As they arrived German POW's were doing manual labor along the tracks, when they saw that the train had "Flyers" on board they all started to collect ballast to throw at them! The MP's put a very quick stop to this he said. They were then unloaded from the Troop Train then marched past the German's who were forced to stand at attention out to a large hanger where a wonderfull steak dinner was prepared by Italian POW's working there. It was here that an Italian POW sewn on Dad's Ruptured Duck. Dad well recall's his first encounter with the enemy after five months flying over them!

Todd-

 From: bill runnels 
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Blue Stars
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com


It sure does. One remains on my battle jacket to this
day..........Bill Runnels


> Much to my surprise9I had forgotten this), my father
> had taken the 3 "ruptured ducks" we received at
> discharge and had sewn these emblems over the stars
> and had continued to display this in the window.
> 
> Does the ruptured duck ring a bell with anyone?
> 
> Fory
> Kuykendalls RO



Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
--0-609228210-1044971002=:68291--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 14:14:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:14:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ruptured Duck (Was Blue Stars)
In-Reply-To: <20030211134322.68665.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030211141441.83140.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Todd Hollritt  wrote:
> 
>   Dad told me when he arrived back in the States
> from Molesworth / Chelveston they were taken from
> NYC up the Hudson River by "Circle Liners" to
> Piermont NY. Loaded on a Troop Train (Erie RR) and
> taken to what was then Stewart Army Airfield in NY.
> As they arrived German POW's were doing manual labor
> along the tracks, when they saw that the train had
> "Flyers" on board they all started to collect
> ballast to throw at them! The MP's put a very quick
> stop to this he said. They were then unloaded from
> the Troop Train then marched past the German's who
> were forced to stand at attention out to a large
> hanger where a wonderfull steak dinner was prepared
> by Italian POW's working there. It was here that an
> Italian POW sewn on Dad's Ruptured Duck. Dad well
> recall's his first encounter with the enemy after
> five months flying over them!
> Todd-
  I didn't receive mine until time of discharge, Baer
Field, Fort Wayne, Indiana. As a matter of fact, I had
to take off my jacket to let them sew it on shortly
before I exited the base.......Bill

> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 15:22:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:22:30 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf
References: <3E48ADF5.28.288DD4@localhost>
Message-ID: <000901c2d1e1$67e4f460$6700a8c0@Home>

Hi Bill - I had a similar thought with respect to Mickey possibly coming
from microwave. Considered that Pathfinder might have come from the PFF
designation. It's not uncommon for the military to create a name to fit an
acronym. The OB (low level flight corridors) used to practice low level
terrain (and radar) avoidance are an example I'm familiar with. Once they
were referred to as "Oil Burner". This later became un-PC and the name was
changed to "Olive Branch" - Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Jones" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf


>
> >   Where did the term PPF fit
> > in? Was it essentially a designation for H2S equipped A/C or a different
> > system? -
>
> I'm probably wrong on this, but it was my impression that the H2S was
> the British version of the radar system, but the Americans adapted
> this into a better shorter wavelength version that was called H2X
> and/or PFF.  So I think that the H2S isn't exactly the same thing.
> The USAAF B-17s radar antenna sat in a radome that replaced the ball
> turret.  It is my understanding (again, may be wrong), that the
> British H2S, being lower frequency, used a more conventional antenna
> mounted out on the wings or something like that.
>     I think this seems to be a sensitive topic because the British
> consider themselves the inventors of the RADAR, and rightly so, but
> the US had been working on it too, and eventually came up with a
> significantly different version they considered better.
>    I assume that early in the war, that the US planes must have used
> the British version, but I'm not sure.
>    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  :-)
>
>
>  I assume that at least part of the PFF designation must refer to
> "Pathfinder", but that might be wrong too.
>    Also,  I wonder if there is any possibility that the "micky"
> operator term came at least partly from the term "microwave", in
> addition to "Mickey Mouse", which I like too??
>
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>
>
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 17:29:40 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John Howland)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:29:40 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OBOE and GEE-H
Message-ID: 


THROUGH THE CLOUD BOMBING
by
J. W. Howland

In times of stress, people rise to new heights to meet the challenges.
Robert Watson-Watt started four years before the war started.  However, the
radar shield he and his team of scientists put together was largely
responsible for the victory achieved in the Battle of Britain in 1941.  In
1937, R. J. Dippy was stimulated to develop an entirely new concept of
navigation consisting of a grid system of hyperbolic curves known as GEE.
This novel concept opened a Pandora’s box of new aids to navigation
utilizing hyperbolic curves generated by radio waves.  These involved
systems known as Loran A, Loran C,  Decca, Omega, and a German system known
as Hyperbol.
GEE was highly effective and accurate as an aid to navigation, but it lacked
the pin-point accuracy needed for a bombing attack on a selected target.  A
British scientist named Alec Reeves rose to the occasion and developed a
through-the-clouds bombing technique known as OBOE.  Although developed in
spite of the earthy comments of doubting-Thomas detractors, OBOE proved to
be the most successful of all such techniques developed during World War II.
By mid-1944 the principle of OBOE was combined with GEE and a blind bombing
technique known as GEE H was developed.  Strikes upon difficult-to-hit
targets were made by the RAF and the USAAF and Hitler’s war machine was
badly crippled by a lack of petroleum products and sorely needed
replacements.
By modern standards, the technology associated with these novel bombing
techniques is ancient history.  However, the reader should recall that these
techniques were on the cutting edge of the technology more than sixty years
ago.  We have attempted to describe the basic technology utilized in an
effort to preserve the historical significance of these contributions.

OBOE

The through-the-clouds bombing technique called OBOE was developed by an
Englishman named Alec Reeves.  It was probably the most successful of all
such systems produced during World War II.  Directional control of the
aircraft was in the hands of operators based at two radio stations in
England.  These stations were called the Cat and the Mouse stations.  The
Cat station was responsible for controlling the track of the aircraft on its
bombing run.  The Mouse station signaled when to release the bombs on a
pre-selected target.
Prior to sending the aircraft on a mission, cartographers measured the
distance from the Cat station to a selected target.  Let us assume the
target was Essen Germany and the measured distance from the CAT station was
262.22 miles.  The pilot was ordered to fly into Germany well north of the
target area until he reached the Track, an arc of a circle exactly 262.22
miles east of the Cat station.
The aircraft carried a transponder.  This is an instrument that receives a
radio signal and instantly transmits a signal back to the point of origin.
The time lapse from the time the signal was sent from the station and
returned to the point of origin was measured on a cathode ray tube at the
station.  These measurements were in microseconds (uS) or millionths of a
second. Radio waves travel at a speed of, roughly, 1000 feet per uS.  For
example, if the Cat station sent a signal that required 2,769.04 uS to reach
the aircraft and return, the one-way time required was half this amount or
1,384.52 uS. This meant the airplane was 1,384,520 feet distant from the
station.  Dividing by 5,280 feet per mile we find the distance was 262.22
miles.
Another set of audible radio signals were constantly transmitted to the
pilot.  Prior to reaching the track, all he heard was a series of dots like
Morse code dots.  When he reached the track line the dots turned into a
solid tone and the pilot had to turn the aircraft south and follow that arc
line and the solid tone.  If he went beyond the track line the solid tone
turned into s series of dashes like Morse code dashes.  The pilot knew he
was too far away (left) and had to correct back to the right.  If he heard a
series of dots, he knew he was too far to the right and had to correct to
the left.  With practice, pilots were able to follow the track quite easily
until they reached the bomb release point. This point was controlled by the
Mouse station.
The Mouse operators knew the aircraft was flying at a prescribed altitude.
The bomb trajectory, distance-to target and release point, as well as
distance to the Mouse station, were all pre-calculated.  The Mouse station
merely measured the distance  to the aircraft using the same type of
transponder signals as the Cat station and a similar Cathode Ray tube.
Although the bombardier was actually 265.40 miles away in England, the bombs
were dropped on his signal when the aircraft reached the release point.
Accuracy was quite good, even through cloudy skies.
  When the bomber reached the I.P. (Initial Point), approximately ten
minutes prior to bomb release) the pilot stopped flying the arc of the Track
circle.  He was given a straight and level heading to the target that was
followed until the bomb release order was issued by the Mouse operator.  The
precise nature of the entire operation is awesome.  Of course, measurement
of the pulse signals to a millionth of a second was a feat by itself.
However, there were other considerations as well.  For example, in the
transponder there was a delay of perhaps 8 or ten microseconds between
receipt of a signal and triggering of the reply signal that had to be
allowed for.  There was even an allowance of several microseconds for normal
human response delay after receiving the bomb release order.
The main disadvantage of the OBOE system was that operators could deal with
only one aircraft at a time.  Subsequently, RAF Pathfinder crews were sent
to a target area (always at night).  Their bomb load consisted only of
brilliant marker flares to light up the target.  The main fleet of bombers
followed and dropped their bomb loads on the brilliant flares.
Nevertheless, OBOE was the most successful of all the wartime
“Through-the-clouds” bombing techniques.
Following the invasion, Cat and Mouse stations were established in France
and Belgium that placed most of Germany within the 300 mile range of OBOE.
The success of OBOE led to the development of a similar through-the-clouds
bombing technique.  It was called GEE- H.  It worked just like OBOE in
reverse.  The navigator of the aircraft became the operator, and the CAT and
MOUSE stations were merely transponders.

GEE-H

GEE-H was another blind bombing technique introduced in the spring of 1944.
The entire operation was conducted from the aircraft and directed by the
navigator.
 In the first phase of the operation, the navigator used his GEE box in the
normal way. He tuned to the two stations providing the GEE grid lines to
guide his plane to the vicinity of the target.
When he reached that area, the navigator switched his GEE box to the H mode
of operation.
The aircraft then transmitted a pulse signal to the two ground station
transponders.  (CAT and MOUSE)
The Navigator measured the time lapse between sending and receiving the
signals with his on-board cathode ray tube (CRT). The “Track” was the arc of
a circle whose radius was the straight line pre-determined distance from a
selected GEE-H  (CAT ) transponder to the target.
The navigator set the A and B stations of his receiver to the two
pre-calculated ranges.
He kept the pilot on course by voice commands and by keeping the left edge
of the live (upper) blip for upper station “A” on the left edge of his
timebase. In this position, the aircraft was flying on the arc of the curved
track line .
The lower station “B” on the cathode ray tube was represented by an inverted
blip, (bottom side of the timeline) on the CRT.
As the aircraft flew towards its target this lower blip drifted across the
timebase. When it lined up with the upper blip it showed the point at which
the track line and the bomb release point intersected. Just before the two
blips lined up, the pilot straightened his flight path and he, as well as
all other planes in the formation, then dropped their bombs.
GEE-H bombing through the clouds was highly accurate and played an important
part in depriving Hitler of his much-needed reserves of oil and gasoline.
Not all in the Ministry of Aircraft Production thought its predecessor
(OBOE) was a good idea. During the development stage, one person wrote, “I
regret having to do this but it is true to say, quite bluntly, that these
dispositions on OBOE are ridiculous….If I had the power I would discover the
man responsible for this latest rumor and sack him so that he could no
longer waste, not only his time and effort, but ours by his own vain
imaginings.”
To my way of thinking, the merging of GEE and OBOE was a stroke of genius.
GEE was the first major addition to navigational procedures since the
invention of the chronometer by John Harrison in 1764.  OBOE and GEE H were
extensions of this electronic wizardry and these systems were critically
important to the final victory over the Nazis.  Hats off to R. J. Dippy and
Alec Reeves.




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 17:42:24 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:42:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead II
In-Reply-To: <113.1ecf7183.2b79acce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030211174224.11316.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  Thank you for your most interesting response. 
Of course, your response has sparked a couple more
questions. 
 
1.  Why would a pilot want to become a lead or deputy
lead pilot?  Was there more money?  Increased rank? 
I've read that 88s tracked on the lead plane in
formations, and it would seem that leads and deputies
would have bigger crosshairs on them.  Was it ego?
2. Your comments about copilots really hit a nerve. 
I've spoken with a number pilots who thought their
copilots were just along for the ride.  I'm pleased to
see how much you valued yours.  

Thanks again for your comments!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 17:47:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:47:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] PPF
In-Reply-To: <071c01c2d185$39393060$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <20030211174701.90593.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Gary:  Don't know about the term PPF.  I've seen PFF,
but not PPF.  Anyone else know?
Cheers!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 17:52:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:52:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prop Wash
In-Reply-To: <11c.1e9592a4.2b79e04a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030211175205.99552.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Jack, well said.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 17:59:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:59:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mickey/Gary Holtorf
In-Reply-To: <3E48ADF5.28.288DD4@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030211175928.91268.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

I saw a show on the History Channel a while back on
the development of radar during WWII (and we all know
how dangerous that can be!)  In this program, they
said the English invented the cavity magnatron, but
since the English did not have the production capacity
at the time to make these, they turned a few over to
the Rad Lab, I think at what is now MIT (could be
wrong).  When us Yanks started fiddling with it, we
were able to decrease the wavelegnth from 10 meters to
3 centimenters by the end of the war, giving the
operator a much clearer picture of what was on the
ground.  Rad Lab also worked with Sonar and Radar
relative to naval vessels and is one of many reasons
for VJ Day, not to mention the destruction of
Doernitz's wolfpacks.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 20:08:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:08:50 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OBOE and GEE-H
References: 
Message-ID: <01aa01c2d209$65c45720$6700a8c0@Home>

Thank you John - Excellent treatment of the subject. Absolutely breakthrough
technology. Surely an exciting time to be an engineer. Programs were
conceived, implemented and deployed in short order and made huge differences
in the eventual outcome of the war effort. Best regards, Gary Holtorf

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Howland" 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:29 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OBOE and GEE-H


>
>
> THROUGH THE CLOUD BOMBING
> by
> J. W. Howland
>
> In times of stress, people rise to new heights to meet the challenges.
> Robert Watson-Watt started four years before the war started.  However,
the
> radar shield he and his team of scientists put together was largely
> responsible for the victory achieved in the Battle of Britain in 1941.  In
> 1937, R. J. Dippy was stimulated to develop an entirely new concept of
> navigation consisting of a grid system of hyperbolic curves known as GEE.
> This novel concept opened a Pandora's box of new aids to navigation
> utilizing hyperbolic curves generated by radio waves.  These involved
> systems known as Loran A, Loran C,  Decca, Omega, and a German system
known
> as Hyperbol.
> GEE was highly effective and accurate as an aid to navigation, but it
lacked
> the pin-point accuracy needed for a bombing attack on a selected target.
A
> British scientist named Alec Reeves rose to the occasion and developed a
> through-the-clouds bombing technique known as OBOE.  Although developed in
> spite of the earthy comments of doubting-Thomas detractors, OBOE proved to
> be the most successful of all such techniques developed during World War
II.
> By mid-1944 the principle of OBOE was combined with GEE and a blind
bombing
> technique known as GEE H was developed.  Strikes upon difficult-to-hit
> targets were made by the RAF and the USAAF and Hitler's war machine was
> badly crippled by a lack of petroleum products and sorely needed
> replacements.
> By modern standards, the technology associated with these novel bombing
> techniques is ancient history.  However, the reader should recall that
these
> techniques were on the cutting edge of the technology more than sixty
years
> ago.  We have attempted to describe the basic technology utilized in an
> effort to preserve the historical significance of these contributions.
>
> OBOE
>
> The through-the-clouds bombing technique called OBOE was developed by an
> Englishman named Alec Reeves.  It was probably the most successful of all
> such systems produced during World War II.  Directional control of the
> aircraft was in the hands of operators based at two radio stations in
> England.  These stations were called the Cat and the Mouse stations.  The
> Cat station was responsible for controlling the track of the aircraft on
its
> bombing run.  The Mouse station signaled when to release the bombs on a
> pre-selected target.
> Prior to sending the aircraft on a mission, cartographers measured the
> distance from the Cat station to a selected target.  Let us assume the
> target was Essen Germany and the measured distance from the CAT station
was
> 262.22 miles.  The pilot was ordered to fly into Germany well north of the
> target area until he reached the Track, an arc of a circle exactly 262.22
> miles east of the Cat station.
> The aircraft carried a transponder.  This is an instrument that receives a
> radio signal and instantly transmits a signal back to the point of origin.
> The time lapse from the time the signal was sent from the station and
> returned to the point of origin was measured on a cathode ray tube at the
> station.  These measurements were in microseconds (uS) or millionths of a
> second. Radio waves travel at a speed of, roughly, 1000 feet per uS.  For
> example, if the Cat station sent a signal that required 2,769.04 uS to
reach
> the aircraft and return, the one-way time required was half this amount or
> 1,384.52 uS. This meant the airplane was 1,384,520 feet distant from the
> station.  Dividing by 5,280 feet per mile we find the distance was 262.22
> miles.
> Another set of audible radio signals were constantly transmitted to the
> pilot.  Prior to reaching the track, all he heard was a series of dots
like
> Morse code dots.  When he reached the track line the dots turned into a
> solid tone and the pilot had to turn the aircraft south and follow that
arc
> line and the solid tone.  If he went beyond the track line the solid tone
> turned into s series of dashes like Morse code dashes.  The pilot knew he
> was too far away (left) and had to correct back to the right.  If he heard
a
> series of dots, he knew he was too far to the right and had to correct to
> the left.  With practice, pilots were able to follow the track quite
easily
> until they reached the bomb release point. This point was controlled by
the
> Mouse station.
> The Mouse operators knew the aircraft was flying at a prescribed altitude.
> The bomb trajectory, distance-to target and release point, as well as
> distance to the Mouse station, were all pre-calculated.  The Mouse station
> merely measured the distance  to the aircraft using the same type of
> transponder signals as the Cat station and a similar Cathode Ray tube.
> Although the bombardier was actually 265.40 miles away in England, the
bombs
> were dropped on his signal when the aircraft reached the release point.
> Accuracy was quite good, even through cloudy skies.
>   When the bomber reached the I.P. (Initial Point), approximately ten
> minutes prior to bomb release) the pilot stopped flying the arc of the
Track
> circle.  He was given a straight and level heading to the target that was
> followed until the bomb release order was issued by the Mouse operator.
The
> precise nature of the entire operation is awesome.  Of course, measurement
> of the pulse signals to a millionth of a second was a feat by itself.
> However, there were other considerations as well.  For example, in the
> transponder there was a delay of perhaps 8 or ten microseconds between
> receipt of a signal and triggering of the reply signal that had to be
> allowed for.  There was even an allowance of several microseconds for
normal
> human response delay after receiving the bomb release order.
> The main disadvantage of the OBOE system was that operators could deal
with
> only one aircraft at a time.  Subsequently, RAF Pathfinder crews were sent
> to a target area (always at night).  Their bomb load consisted only of
> brilliant marker flares to light up the target.  The main fleet of bombers
> followed and dropped their bomb loads on the brilliant flares.
> Nevertheless, OBOE was the most successful of all the wartime
> "Through-the-clouds" bombing techniques.
> Following the invasion, Cat and Mouse stations were established in France
> and Belgium that placed most of Germany within the 300 mile range of OBOE.
> The success of OBOE led to the development of a similar through-the-clouds
> bombing technique.  It was called GEE- H.  It worked just like OBOE in
> reverse.  The navigator of the aircraft became the operator, and the CAT
and
> MOUSE stations were merely transponders.
>
> GEE-H
>
> GEE-H was another blind bombing technique introduced in the spring of
1944.
> The entire operation was conducted from the aircraft and directed by the
> navigator.
>  In the first phase of the operation, the navigator used his GEE box in
the
> normal way. He tuned to the two stations providing the GEE grid lines to
> guide his plane to the vicinity of the target.
> When he reached that area, the navigator switched his GEE box to the H
mode
> of operation.
> The aircraft then transmitted a pulse signal to the two ground station
> transponders.  (CAT and MOUSE)
> The Navigator measured the time lapse between sending and receiving the
> signals with his on-board cathode ray tube (CRT). The "Track" was the arc
of
> a circle whose radius was the straight line pre-determined distance from a
> selected GEE-H  (CAT ) transponder to the target.
> The navigator set the A and B stations of his receiver to the two
> pre-calculated ranges.
> He kept the pilot on course by voice commands and by keeping the left edge
> of the live (upper) blip for upper station "A" on the left edge of his
> timebase. In this position, the aircraft was flying on the arc of the
curved
> track line .
> The lower station "B" on the cathode ray tube was represented by an
inverted
> blip, (bottom side of the timeline) on the CRT.
> As the aircraft flew towards its target this lower blip drifted across the
> timebase. When it lined up with the upper blip it showed the point at
which
> the track line and the bomb release point intersected. Just before the two
> blips lined up, the pilot straightened his flight path and he, as well as
> all other planes in the formation, then dropped their bombs.
> GEE-H bombing through the clouds was highly accurate and played an
important
> part in depriving Hitler of his much-needed reserves of oil and gasoline.
> Not all in the Ministry of Aircraft Production thought its predecessor
> (OBOE) was a good idea. During the development stage, one person wrote, "I
> regret having to do this but it is true to say, quite bluntly, that these
> dispositions on OBOE are ridiculous..If I had the power I would discover
the
> man responsible for this latest rumor and sack him so that he could no
> longer waste, not only his time and effort, but ours by his own vain
> imaginings."
> To my way of thinking, the merging of GEE and OBOE was a stroke of genius.
> GEE was the first major addition to navigational procedures since the
> invention of the chronometer by John Harrison in 1764.  OBOE and GEE H
were
> extensions of this electronic wizardry and these systems were critically
> important to the final victory over the Nazis.  Hats off to R. J. Dippy
and
> Alec Reeves.
>
>
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 20:02:16 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:16 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] PPF
References: <20030211174701.90593.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <019901c2d208$7b8e7460$6700a8c0@Home>

Opps ...er  Oops - Fat fingered that one.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PPF


> Gary:  Don't know about the term PPF.  I've seen PFF,
> but not PPF.  Anyone else know?
> Cheers!
> Kevin
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 21:16:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:16:20 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead II
Message-ID: <1c5.4ec12fc.2b7ac224@aol.com>

Kevin   
      Keep in mind: Every thing I say is a matter of opinion, Mine. I admit 
to being very opinionated. Question #1. Why would a pilot want to become a 
lead or deputy lead pilot? My opinion. Recognition and prestige and increased 
rank. They didn't get paid any more than their regular rank plus flight pay 
called for. I supposed the enemy cross hairs were on them but most gunners 
didn't lead enough so they hit the planes behind the one the were trying to 
hit.Ego? Yes, sure. Maybe more so in some than others, but we all have it in 
some degree. If one didn't one had no business being a military pilot.
     2.  Most B17 first pilots when they were put on a crew had about 100 
hours in B17s. Most copilots when they were put on a crew had about 0 hours 
on a B17. I'm sure some first pilot made 100% of their take offs and landing 
during their tour of duty.  Others trained and traded off with their copilots 
and even taught some of the other member of their crew to fly. I think our 
Engineer and tail gunner could have landed and walked away from it especially 
if someone could have handled the throttles for them By the time a crew had 
half of their mission in and the copilot had done half the flying, take offs 
and landings, he had nearly a 50-50 chance of being a better pilot than his 
first pilot.  He very well could have had lots more aptitude to start with.  
I flew with lots of new pilots and new crews and let me tell you there was 
lots of BIG differences in them.
     Now let me tell you a bit about me. I was trained as a fighter pilot. I 
graduated from advanced that was a P38 school. I think that because of a 
special and quite rare skill I have I was assigned to B17s and sent to fly in 
a gunnery school where I accumulated about a 1000 hours of B17 time, about 
half and half in the left and right seats. While there in addition to flying 
the student gunners eight hours per day I test flew many of our birds after 
major maintenance, engine slow timing checking out new pilots and etc. I was 
asked to and volunteered to take on a special assignment that put me on a 
crew as copilot before I was assigned on a crew and went over seas. I flew 
about half my missions as a copilot and several of them was as copilot with 
crews that were flying their first combat mission. Now you see why I feel as 
I do about copilots.  Like any other group 50% of all pilots are below 
average and let me tell you that upper 50% has its fair share of copilots, 
which means the lower 50% has-- Oh you take it from there.
        Best Wishes,
             Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 22:45:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OBOE and GEE-H
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030211224508.42669.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Outstanding explanation, John, thank you very much for
posting it.
Kevin


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 22:55:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Sub Pens at Lorient
In-Reply-To: <20030211175928.91268.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030211225556.46549.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Last night on the History Channel there was a show on
"Underground Passages" that profiled the sub pens at
Lorient.  Wow!  It was a spectacular show and gave
glimpses both in and out of the pen.  As British Tall
Boy hit it and it only penetrated ten feet out of the
thirty!

Has anyone been there since the war to see this
structure?  If so, can anyone tell me how I m,ight get
into see this.  Is there a museum there?
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 11 22:45:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OBOE and GEE-H
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030211224508.42669.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Outstanding explanation, John, thank you very much for
posting it.
Kevin


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 01:08:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:08:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead II
In-Reply-To: <1c5.4ec12fc.2b7ac224@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030212010836.72947.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  You are absolutely amazing!  I am so honored to
be able to chat with you about these things.  No
wonder your eyes lit up when I mentioned a P-38 with
Merlins.

Jeez, the P-51 was an awesome machine and did help win
the airwar in Europe, but I have always be partial to
the P-38 - just something about that skunk works
design.  

Just one more quick question for you and please answer
whenever it is convenient.  I've heard that when a
P-38 took off, the little opening on the canopy had to
be shut, or by not closing it, you could actually
loose control and crash.  Now I've seen that little
opening and it just doesn't seem like a bird with that
much power could loose it over a little opening in the
canopy.  You've explained so many complicated things
to this uncomplicated guy, would you mind taking a
stab at the opening in the canopy and why a 38 would
crash if it was left open.

I honestly hope when I am your age I have just a
couple of good stories to tell my grand kids.....
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 01:14:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:14:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk} They Came to Madingley
In-Reply-To: <20030211225556.46549.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030212011422.62239.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

THEY CAME TO MADINGLEY

It chanced I wandered Hardwick way
>From Cambridge on a sunny day
By pleasant lanes in early May
And here I parked an hour to stay.
Then o'er the trees against the sky
I saw Old Glory flying high
And remembered nearby lay
War Dead of the U.S.A.

T'was Madingley I'd chose to stay
Where often aged couples stray
And at a grave to stand and pray.
Maybe o'er their only son
And clasp the medal that he won
As he was on his fateful way
To come to Madingley to stay.

He may have come from Santa Fe.
He may have known the Great White Way.
Some came who knew Pacific spray
Blowing in from 'Frisco Bay'.
They came from North, East, South and West,
Certain their own state was best.
Reckless, too, with love or pay
Then they came to Madingley to stay.

By various paths they made their way,
To come to Madingley to stay.
Some bombed Schweinfurt in the day,
And, in air-combat's lethal fray,
A bullet does not ask what race,
Not even colour of a face.
And some could fall to 'Friendly' stray,
Then come to Madingley to stay

And these at Madingley do stay.
Are very much the same as they.
Our Brits in France or in Maylay.
And "Senseless slaughter" some may say.
But such are easy words to speak
For Belsen's chimney ceased to reek
Due to young men such as they
Who came to Madingley to stay.

Oh do not let the Dead March play,
O'er these at Madingley do stay.
For they were young and old-style gay.
Play their music of the day,
Tunes of Dorsey, songs of Bing,
Let them hear Glenn Miller's swing.
Then too the crosses well may sway
With those at Madingley do stay.

Although, in truth, those boys don't stay.
I've 'Knowledge' and I hereby say
The empty bodies are not "They"
Below in that cold Cambridge clay.
Such happy souls don't stick around
In that well-tailored burial ground,
But you be sure they see you pray
And pray for you, as you for they.



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 02:39:33 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:39:33 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead II P38s
Message-ID: <4b.2aa52b61.2b7b0de5@aol.com>

Kevin,
     I do not know any reason why the little hole in the canopy could cause 
any trouble open or closed on take off.  I have no recollection of it ever 
being mentioned. I have very little time in P38s. We flew P322s in advanced. 
These were about 50 birds the English ordered. They were P38s without counter 
rotating props and without superchargers. We had to tie them down at night. 
Not because they might blow away. We had little wind at Williams Field, but 
so they wouldn't chase the cats. They were dogs. The English didn't like them 
so we used them as Advanced trainers. I did ferry a few real P38s after I 
returned from England when I was in the ATC but remember nothing about the 
little hole. I have 2 old P38 Pilot friends left over from our cadet days 
that flew them in the 8th before they switched over to the P51s. I will call 
one of them and find out for you. I won't call them tonight as they both live 
in Florida and would be asleep this time of night there, I'll let you know.
     The only bad thing I remember about the P38 was if you lost an Engine on 
take off and all that torque hit you at once you had one two hundred and 
fifth of a second to get the other throttle off before it was over on its 
back and back on the ground with you. The rule was pull them both off and 
come back on real quick along with the rudder and climb on out. I practiced 
this and it worked. They also told us if we had to bail out roll it on it's 
back and fall out so you wouldn't hit the tail. I never tried that one as 
some stranger I didn't know had packed my chute. and I am a coward and never 
trusted anyone if I didn't have to. So there. Thanks Kevin for being you. You 
make me think which might slow my Alzheimer's a bit.
     Best Wishes,
         Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 02:57:24 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:57:24 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk} They Came to Madingley
References: <20030212011422.62239.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003201c2d242$7e6aacf0$8d91c8cf@altonmain>

Kevin,
Thanks for posting that. I put it into my "notepad", changed the font, and
passed it on to all the fellas in the 91st. I have already received a couple
of positive replies.
I also want to thank you, Jack, Bill, Jake Howland, and all the many others
who keep this the best and most active list on the 'net, where it concerns
the 303rd and the 8th AF.
You are all truly remarkable. I am proud to be associated with you, even
though my part is small.
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk} They Came to Madingley


> THEY CAME TO MADINGLEY
>
> It chanced I wandered Hardwick way
> From Cambridge on a . . . . . . . . .




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 03:08:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:08:18 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lead Crews
Message-ID: <001301c2d244$00f599e0$f19a46c6@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D211.B3696120
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Speaking for Kuykendalls Crew, Roger called us together after our 9th =
mission and told us if we took on the extra effort of a Lead Crew we =
would only have to fly 30 missions instead of the 35 that was the =
standard at that time.  So we agreed to do 5 less missions. So we flew =
lead positions from 11th mission until we reached 30.

Fory=20
Kuykendalls RO
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D211.B3696120
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Speaking for Kuykendalls Crew, Roger =
called us=20
together after our 9th mission and told us if we took on the extra =
effort of a=20
Lead Crew we would only have to fly 30 missions instead of the 35 that =
was the=20
standard at that time.  So we agreed to do 5 less missions. So we =
flew lead=20
positions from 11th mission until we reached 30.


 


Fory 


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2D211.B3696120--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 03:21:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John Howland)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:21:15 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pathfinders and Airborne Radar
Message-ID: 

Pathfinders and Airborne radar

The British were first to develop the airborne radar.
The basic problem involved the concentration and transmission of very high
powered 10 centimeter radio waves required to generate a suitable image on
the PPI (Plan Position Indicator) as called by the British.  The
breakthrough came in 1940 after two years of intensive investigation.  J. H.
Randall and Harry Boot developed the highly secret Cavity Magnetron. The
magnetron gave the Allies a lead the Germans never overcame.

The story is told that the un-named test unit was being demonstrated to a
group of RAF officers.  The first models were rather primitive and the PPI
or scope image was really not very clear.  After the demonstration one of
the scientists asked for comments on their brain child.  One of the rather
skeptical RAF officers reportedly said, "I think it is rather stinky."
And that is how the H2S radar got its name (for stinky hydrogen sulfide
gas).  It should be noted that "H" was an RAF designation for a bombing
system (ie: GEE-H)

American scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology then went
to work trying to improve the H2S radar.  They reduced the wavelength from
10 cm to 3 cm and reportedly gained measurable improvement in the PPI or
scope image.  The resulting unit was named the H2X radar, also known as the
Mark II radar.  The name Mickey Operator is probably derived from shortening
Mark II operator to Mickey Operator.

Concerning questions about why anyone would want to become a pathfinder.  As
an ex-pathfinder navigator I can say that I had a few sad experiences
following some so-called leaders who had their heads up and locked and led
our formation over flak batteries unnecessarily.  When we were offered a
transfer, on detached service, to the pathfinder force my pilot and I
snapped up the offer.  Jim Tyson was a great lead pilot.  Steady as a rock.
Turns were always slow, about 1/4 needle width on Jim's turn and bank
indicator.  It took about 8 minutes for a 360 degree turn, 4 minutes for a
180.  Turns had to be slow.  Too fast and those on the outside were
screaming into their mikes, SLOW IT DOWN, SLOW IT DOWN.  At the same time
those on the inside of the turn were screaming, SPEED IT UP WE'RE STALLING
OUT DOWN HERE. Leading a Wing formation of 54 ships was like conducting a
ballet in slow motion.  However, if you stumbled and fell over enemy
territory you could be in serious trouble.

>From the navigator's table I was able to keep us out of the flak except in
the target area.  Other than the personal satisfaction of knowing we
controlled our own destiny, to a minor degree, there were few other
advantages.  We were outside the political circles of our bomb group and, in
some respects, the forgotten stepchildren.  But that was okay with me.  I
enjoyed leading a helluva lot more than I did following the leader.

John Howland
ex-pathfinder navigator
1st Combat Division
381st, 305th & 91st bomb groups



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 05:48:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:48:57 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
References: <1c5.4ec12fc.2b7ac224@aol.com>
Message-ID: <027a01c2d25a$71679aa0$6700a8c0@Home>

Jack - In the message below you mention "engine slow timing".
In my Dad's log book there are several "Slow Time" entries in the comments
for local flights.
I never for a moment thought that this meant that it was a slow day in the
war, so he took a ship up for a joy ride. But I didn't have a better idea
either. Was this a check ride for a plane out of maintenance, re-engine
or...?
Thanks, as always, for your time and insight, and patience for dumb
questions, Gary Holtorf

----- Original Message -----
From: 


While there in addition to flying
> the student gunners eight hours per day I test flew many of our birds
after
> major maintenance, engine slow timing checking out new pilots and etc.



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 14:10:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:10:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
Message-ID: <141.a5d5388.2b7baff0@aol.com>

Gary,
     There are very few dumb questions. It is dumb answers we need be 
concerned about. When we installed a new or rebuilt engine which was often it 
needed to be "slow time" four hours before it went on a mission.
      We would take off on 3 engines with our new engine running at a fast 
idle and about 12 inches or so of manifold pressure. and fly it that way for 
4 hours. This was mainly to seat the rings and maybe give the new bearings a 
chance to mate with their journals before any high pressures were applied to 
them which might cause them to overheat.  Sometime we just went up and bored 
holes in the sky. Sometimes we would lead a 3 ship formation to check new or 
poorly trained pilots out in close formation. I personally used that time if 
we were alone, to practice mild aerobatics, teach a crew member to fly, 
experiment with one and two engine procedures, two out on one side, Test and 
calibrate some things I had made like an air speed indicator that clamped 
into the pilots or copilot window or a hand held rate of climb indicator.
     Best Wishes,
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 14:32:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:32:41 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
Message-ID: <167.1b92a2e7.2b7bb509@aol.com>

Friend Gary,
      I'm going to answer your next question before you ask it. Why didn't 
you slow time new engines on the ground?  They are air cooled. They need the 
flow of air to keep them from overheating and burning the rings.  We could 
wait for a REAL storm, head them into a 140 mile per hour wind and run them 
for 4 hours but the wind is reported in knots over there.
    Hang in there,
       Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 15:49:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:49:27 +0000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Group Lead/Deputy Lead II P38s
Message-ID: <20030212154929.E0F0D535F9@pairlist.net>

It is my understanding that if the side windows are left down on takeoff the 
wind buffeting and turbulent airflow that is caused will create problems on 
takeoff.   It seems to have something to with the tail set up.   We have a P38 
in the museum I work at in Galveston and have heared this discussed a number of 
times from the pilots who flew it. 

If ever in Galveston TX be sure to stop by and visit the Lone Star Flight 
Museum and you can see for yourself.

Steve Siegmund
> Kevin,
>      I do not know any reason why the little hole in the canopy could cause 
> any trouble open or closed on take off.  I have no recollection of it ever 
> being mentioned. I have very little time in P38s. We flew P322s in advanced. 
> These were about 50 birds the English ordered. They were P38s without counter 
> rotating props and without superchargers. We had to tie them down at night. 
> Not because they might blow away. We had little wind at Williams Field, but 
> so they wouldn't chase the cats. They were dogs. The English didn't like them 
> so we used them as Advanced trainers. I did ferry a few real P38s after I 
> returned from England when I was in the ATC but remember nothing about the 
> little hole. I have 2 old P38 Pilot friends left over from our cadet days 
> that flew them in the 8th before they switched over to the P51s. I will call 
> one of them and find out for you. I won't call them tonight as they both live 
> in Florida and would be asleep this time of night there, I'll let you know.
>      The only bad thing I remember about the P38 was if you lost an Engine on 
> take off and all that torque hit you at once you had one two hundred and 
> fifth of a second to get the other throttle off before it was over on its 
> back and back on the ground with you. The rule was pull them both off and 
> come back on real quick along with the rudder and climb on out. I practiced 
> this and it worked. They also told us if we had to bail out roll it on it's 
> back and fall out so you wouldn't hit the tail. I never tried that one as 
> some stranger I didn't know had packed my chute. and I am a coward and never 
> trusted anyone if I didn't have to. So there. Thanks Kevin for being you. You 
> make me think which might slow my Alzheimer's a bit.
>      Best Wishes,
>          Jack
> 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 16:46:40 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:46:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
In-Reply-To: <027a01c2d25a$71679aa0$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Gary Holtorf  wrote:
> Jack - In the message below you mention "engine slow
> timing".
> In my Dad's log book there are several "Slow Time"
> entries in the comments
> for local flights.
>  
Jack has given you the technical side  and much more
on the slow timing procedure. A skeleton crew of
pilot, c-pilot, engineer and navigator was required on
 such flights. I was often used to fill the navigator
spot. On one such flight shortly after my arrival at
the 303rd, I learned to use the GEE Box navigational
system. This experience paid big dividends on our
first mission. Another time a British Mosquito IV came
up on our right wing tip. He had his power cut way
back but still went by us. The next time around he had
one engine feathered. We flew close formation for 15
or 20 minutes before he fired up the feathered engine
and left us lumbering along. This assignment was not
choice and all looked for something to do with four
hours of going no place.

Bill Runnels,  Bombardier

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 12 23:08:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:08:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing & Soup-bones
References: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c2d2eb$aa220920$6401a8c0@desktop1>

 Flight crews might have found it boring , but having just hung that
spanking new/rebuilt Wright Cyclone on there my dad would try to weasel his
way onboard for the slow-time flight if he could. Er, checking quality
control. Nice way to say you have confidence in your work.

 I remember him saying that something on the order of two and a half hours
(?) was all that was required to swap a mill, and the Molesworth guys had it
to the point where few if any in the ETO could beat the 303rd record for an
engine swap. I am under the impression that enough engines were swapped
often enough as to make cycle time important .

 On another topic, when the ground crews would be waiting for the planes to
return, as soon as they came into sight they would be assessing the aircraft
for damage...my dad and the guys called a dead engine a "Soup-Bone", for the
fact that the nacelle with a stopped propellor looked like a dog with a bone
in its mouth. As in "So and so's got flak damage in the fuselage and number
3 is a Soup-bone" and be almost ordering parts before the plane squeaked
down.

 Curious, but I have never heard this slang term on this board or anywheres
else for that matter. Might be unique to my dad (Not the first time)

Bill










From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 13 01:21:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (George Frechter)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:21:14 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] PPF
References: <20030211174701.90593.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> <019901c2d208$7b8e7460$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <00ae01c2d2fe$33491970$b583a818@u2z7g8>

Believe PFF stood for Path Finder Force

George Frechter  427 Navigator
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Holtorf" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PPF


> 
> Opps ...er  Oops - Fat fingered that one.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kevin Pearson" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PPF
> 
> 
> > Gary:  Don't know about the term PPF.  I've seen PFF,
> > but not PPF.  Anyone else know?
> > Cheers!
> > Kevin
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 13 03:02:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:02:00 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
References: <167.1b92a2e7.2b7bb509@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c2d30c$475953e0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

yes, I heard it was more dificult for air in knots to get in and around the
cylinder walls--I think a ground crew chief stated that. But then what does
a navigator know  except that wind in MPH or Knots will  blow an airplane
off course  if it isnot calculated correctly.
LeRoy
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing


> Friend Gary,
>       I'm going to answer your next question before you ask it. Why didn't
> you slow time new engines on the ground?  They are air cooled. They need
the
> flow of air to keep them from overheating and burning the rings.  We could
> wait for a REAL storm, head them into a 140 mile per hour wind and run
them
> for 4 hours but the wind is reported in knots over there.
>     Hang in there,
>        Jack
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 13 04:16:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:16:36 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
Message-ID: <119.1f0620e0.2b7c7624@aol.com>

LeRoy, You must be pulling my left leg. How in the world can a little bit of 
wind that you can't even see blow a great big aireplane like a B17 off 
course? No way. I'm from Mesa. I have know cents of Yuma but I no an E6B from 
a Dell if they are still in their package. I'll say one thing for you 
navigators. You know where you are in this world of ours and where you are 
going. Me 2, I'm going to bed.  Good nite Leroy. Thanks 4 the cute letter.
      Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 13 15:48:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:48:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gary H./Dumb Questions
In-Reply-To: <119.1f0620e0.2b7c7624@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030213154830.3204.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

I have been involved in this forum for a couple of
years, and I have posted some really stupid questions
and some even stupider answers (silver stars being the
most recent....)  I've never enjoyed any chat group
more than this one.  The guys here are the ABSOLUTE
best and can teach us younger fellas so much.  I've
learned more here in the past couple of years than in
the preceeding twenty years combined reading books and
watching shows.  

>From feathering a prop, to bomb shackles, to flying,
these guys have taught me so much.  Just today Jack
posted a reply about slow timing - I had heard the
term, but didn't know exactly what it meant.

Keep asking questions.  I learn from each and every
one - stupid or not.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 13 16:20:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:20:57 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Engine Slow Timing
References: <141.a5d5388.2b7baff0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02f701c2d37b$e54779a0$6700a8c0@Home>

Thanks Jack, Bill R, Bill C. & Leroy for your comments - Makes perfect sense
to me to get some low stress run time on an engine. Seat the valves, rings
bearings etc, and check out a new engine before having to rely on it to get
you there and back at high power settings.
Putting this time to good use perfecting pilot, navigation, formation flying
skills and instrument check out in friendly skys makes good sense too.
Thanks again, Gary



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 14 07:02:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:02:29 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Flying  Jack
Message-ID: 

--part1_a8.1859bce5.2b7dee85_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



--part1_a8.1859bce5.2b7dee85_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: 
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <153.1bc6e183.2b7d9f32@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:24:02 EST
Subject: Re: Flying  Jack
To: hoytwma2@msn.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

Bill,
     Thanks very much for your compliment. I appreciate your kind words. No, 
I have never written a book or kept a journal. I have thought about it. If I 
can stay alive 2 more years I probably will write a book. Not about flying as 
I am an old has been but about what I was thinking about between take off and 
landing on a lot of long hauls. I think I will call it "The happy Copilot"
      I am the master of my own fate. The captain of my own ship. I have not 
been mad, depressed, sad, unhappy in over 50 years. I realized over 50 years 
ago if I let someone else make me mad,depressed,sad, or unhappy I was turning 
my life over to them. I would only get mad, sad, depressed, unhappy and etc. 
IF I wanted to and have just never have wanted to. I use my motto as "What 
I'm to be is up to me" I used to think "What is to be is up to me" but then I 
realized I had taken in to much territory so I'll leave that up to our 
Commander & Chief  I am happy as the copilot I don't have to wait until I'm 
first pilot before I can be happy. Today is the only day I have to live. 
Yesterday is gone and I cannot bring it back. Tomorrow is not here yet and I 
know not if it will get here or what it will bring. And when and if it gets 
here it will be today SO today I must be happy, It's the only day I'll ever 
have. I could change all the todays in this part of my book to "This moment" 
and be maybe more accurate. Aren't you sorry you asked?
     Best Wishes,
         Jack Rencher

--part1_a8.1859bce5.2b7dee85_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 14 16:10:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:10:15 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] newsletters
Message-ID: <000501c2d443$903847a0$460c6ed8@webshark.com>

This morning I read the last of a two foot thick stack of "Hell's Angels"
newsletters. They were left to me by my "Daddy Bob" Sorenson. I will never
know everything about his service, but these newsletters opened my eyes to a
lot of things about the war. I cannot even tell you about how much this
forum has tought me, and getting first hand info has really helped me to
deal with losing dad....


I WILL be joining asap, to get more newsletters!

Meanwhile, back to work, and If I can answer any questions (about video, tv,
etc) please feel free to ask!

Respectfully,  Tom Beard           tom@webshark.com




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 03:56:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:56:18 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P47, Tail No.8567
Message-ID: <034601c2d4a6$3321ada0$6700a8c0@Home>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've corrected Santa's oversight and now have a scanner.
For a first project I scanned the photos of the P47 that was at =
Molesworth. Bob Hand commented on this airplane and recalled a letter =
from Hal Orenstein. I gather that Col. Raper used this to shepard the =
group during assembly and other uses. I guess rank does have its =
privileges. It's good to be the boss.
In any case here are some photos from my Dad's scrapbook and a photo =
from the front page of the "London Daily Mail" dated Feb. 23, 1945 that =
shows this A/C. In the "clipping" scan the P47 can be seen in the upper =
right hand corner on the taxiway. This is apparently the "Razorback" =
that was replaced at some later time.
The newspaper article describes the Feb 22nd raid: "6,000 planes =
Paralise (English spelling) Reich".  The raid is characterized as the =
greatest blow of the war at Germany's transport system.

Gary Moncur has set up the following links to these photos.
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-01.jpg
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-02.jpg
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-03.jpg
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-04.jpg
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47clipping.jpg

------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









I've corrected Santa's oversight and =
now have a=20
scanner.


For a first project I scanned the =
photos of the P47=20
that was at Molesworth. Bob Hand commented on this airplane and recalled =
a=20
letter from Hal Orenstein. I =
gather that=20
Col. Raper used this to shepard the group during assembly and other =
uses. I=20
guess rank does have its privileges. It's good to be the=20
boss.


In any case here are some photos from my Dad's scrapbook and a =

photo from the front page of the "London Daily Mail" =
dated Feb.=20
23, 1945 that shows this A/C. In the "clipping" scan the P47 can be seen =
in the=20
upper right hand corner on the taxiway. This is apparently the =
"Razorback" that=20
was replaced at some later time.


The newspaper article describes the Feb 22nd raid: "6,000 =
planes=20
Paralise (English spelling) Reich".  The raid is characterized =
as the=20
greatest blow of the war at Germany's transport system.


 


Gary Moncur has set up the following links to these =
photos.


http://www.3=
03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-01.jpg
http://www.3=
03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-02.jpg
http://www.3=
03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-03.jpg
http://www.3=
03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-04.jpg
http://=
www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47clipping.jpg


 


------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 13:52:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:52:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Sequence
In-Reply-To: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030215135253.30632.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

In many movies and in some books, they show a vehicle
at the end of the runway, sometimes with what appears
to be a top turret Plexiglas dome and some in bright
markings, when the planes were landing.  Some books
say this vehicle handled radio communications and
controled the landings.  Can anyone tell me what
functions the people in this vehicle played versus the
people in the control tower?  How about on takeoff? 
Did these people fire the flares that signalled
takeoff intervals?

As always, you comments are greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 13:56:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:56:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Close call on takeoff/landing
In-Reply-To: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030215135608.97559.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

What is the closest call you ever had on takeoff, or
for that matter, on landing.....(besides being way
over gross weight, engines misfiring, crappy weather,
too many planes in the air at one time.........)
Cheers!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 14:00:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:00:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
In-Reply-To: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030215140005.97874.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

I've posted this message before and have gotten just a
couple of replies, but do you remember the food on
base.  Was it good, was it sufficient, and did it
bother you in the air?  With the difference in
pressure at altitude, I've heard abdominal gas was a
real, painful problem.

Also, were you able to find good food off-station on
leave?  With all of the wartime shortages, were there
good things to be had?

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 17:17:40 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:17:40 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Close call on takeoff/landing
Message-ID: 

Kevin,  Re: What is the closest call you ever had on landing or take off 
besides being over gross, engines misfiring, crappy weather etc.?
     My first Solo in a Stearman PT17 at Rankin Aero Academy. After I got it 
in the air that other cockpit looked mighty empty. I felt very much alone. 
There was no one to land it but me and I only had 3 hours fuel. Yhee Gads.
       Jack  
          


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 17:28:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:28:37 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
In-Reply-To: <20030215140005.97874.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Chow is chow and you learn to live with it.  Our daily  sojourns to Naziland
brought us over the battlefields below where I'm sure the troops would have
given anything for one of our meals.  Supplemented with packages from home, I
know I never had cause to complain.  Re/gas pains...you learned early in your
aerial career to eat slowly.. masticating thoroughly (whut he say??) or suffer
the consequences at altitude.  Bon apetit, cheers, Bob Hand
> 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 17:47:33 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:47:33 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P47, Tail No.8567
In-Reply-To: <034601c2d4a6$3321ada0$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3128158053_4328703
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Some times it was the A-31 Vultee Vengeance that buzzed around with the
> message that =B3if you can=B9t tighten up that formation you=B9ll practice all
> afternoon!=B2  This bellowing into our mission-bedraggled ears....also warn=
ings
> about removing the bolts from the .50=B9s before parking the aircraft.
> Buk-buk-bukkkkk!  Cheers, Bob Hand



--B_3128158053_4328703
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P47, Tail No.8567



Some times it was the A-31 Vu=
ltee Vengeance that buzzed around with the message that “if you can=
217;t tighten up that formation you’ll practice all afternoon!” =
 This bellowing into our mission-bedraggled ears....also warnings about=
 removing the bolts from the .50’s before parking the aircraft.  =
Buk-buk-bukkkkk!  Cheers, Bob Hand









--B_3128158053_4328703--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 18:32:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:32:37 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flying  Jack Hand held Rate of climb
Message-ID: <150.1bc12a68.2b7fe1c5@aol.com>

Bill Hoyt.
     For the sake of being brief I misled you a bit.The airspeed indicator, 
Rate of climb, Altimeter, manifold pressure and tire gage are pressure 
instruments. The first three get their pressure from the pitot-static tube 
sticking out in the front of the plane. During our war it was not uncommon 
for the tube or piping to the instruments to be damaged in combat. making the 
instruments inoperative.
     My hand held rate of clime or vertical speed indicator was really an 
instrument I had taken out of a salvage B17. What I built was a clamp in the 
window substitute modified pitot tube and the piping to the instrument. If I 
got the pressure from in the cockpit it varied with the doors or windows or 
Bombay open or closed and the pressures near the outside of the bird varied 
with the air speed due to the Venturi effect. It worked quit well but was bit 
awkward to hold and get clamped in the window due to the slip stream.
     The clamp in airspeed I built measured the drag instead of the air 
pressure and it was small, Light and very easy to clamp in. It was very 
accurate except when visible moisture was present it indicated 5 miles per 
hour fast. I carried both these, an altimeter and a lot of other junk? with 
me on every mission. I never had to use them. On hairy instrument landings I 
had our Engineer stand behind me and read the airspeed off to me. He could 
have read it off the one in the window just a well as the one in the 
instrument panel if needed. I've never tried this but one could feather an 
engine, brake the glass in the manifold pressure gage for the feathered 
engine and have somewhat of an altimeter. I think if that happened to me and 
all the airports in my fuel supply were 00 I would set the bird on auto pilot 
head it for the North pole and bail the crew out including old scared me. ( I 
would carry my spare chute with me in my hand, but leave my clamp in air 
speed in the bird.
     Best Wishes,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 19:39:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:39:48 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
Message-ID: <1dc.2c450d4.2b7ff184@aol.com>

Kevin     Which Base? The chow at Minter Field in Bakersfield California when 
I was in Basic was the best food I've ever had before or since. His name was 
Pop Cavenaugh a civilian. The only complaint I ever heard there was some guy 
behind me in the chow line who stood on his tip toes, looked ahead and said," 
Oh Hell, 
T-Bones again"
     In England we ate a lot better than English civilians did. We had more 
meat per person per day than they had per family per week. I didn't eat off 
the base much but fish and chips was about the only thing I remember being 
available.  
     Some foods do cause gas. Gas expands as the pressure goes down. Air is 
gas. The air pressure is less as one goes up. My opinion; Abdominal gas was a 
very very minor problem for us compared to a bunch of numbers like 88, 
105,109,190 and 0 on 4 gages. Nature had provided us a way to get rid of the 
gas and Wright R1820's provided us a way to get rid of the gas-oline.
     My most disliked job was censoring mail. Certain information was 
prohibited from being sent home. One was how may missions one had flown. 
Powered eggs are one of the gas causing foods, hence on days we were flying a 
mission the flying people got fresh eggs for breakfast, When and IF they had 
them. If they didn't have them we got powered eggs.  The officers and 
enlisted men ate in separate mess halls but were supposed to get exactly the 
same menus. It would be permissible to put in a letter "when we fly missions 
we get fresh eggs. When we are not flying we get powdered eggs" One day one 
of our crew members brought me a letter to censor. In it he stated "we got 
fresh eggs for breakfast this morning".  I thought AH HAW we didn't have 
fresh eggs this morning in our mess I called him in and said Icabod (Not his 
real name) I don't want to send a letter to your family all cut up and I am 
ashamed of you for trying to slip one over on me. I am not sure why the 
intelligence people don't want us to send how many missions we have, but they 
must have a reason and we must live with it.  If you ever try to pull another 
one like this again you are off of this crew. He did not deny what he was 
attempting and was on our crew until he finished his 35. and is still alive. 
I didn't cut his letter up. I gave it back to him and he brought me a 
rewritten one.
      Best Wishes,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 15 20:22:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Walling)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:22:59 -1000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
In-Reply-To: <20030215140005.97874.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20030212164640.54717.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030215102259.008f3100@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>

I remember the food on base as being very good. Before missions we got eggs
fried the way we wanted them and, I think, real milk. I never had any
problems in the air.The worst food I had was at Kingman gunnery school.

Jim Walling


At 06:00 AM 2/15/03 -0800, you wrote:
>I've posted this message before and have gotten just a
>couple of replies, but do you remember the food on
>base.  Was it good, was it sufficient, and did it
>bother you in the air?  With the difference in
>pressure at altitude, I've heard abdominal gas was a
>real, painful problem.
>
>Also, were you able to find good food off-station on
>leave?  With all of the wartime shortages, were there
>good things to be had?
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
>http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 01:59:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:59:29 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
Message-ID: <159.1bef2216.2b804a81@aol.com>

--part1_159.1bef2216.2b804a81_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm with you, Jim.  I thought the food was good and I really think we 
probably had as good a mess crew as there was in the 8th.
Bill Carter

--part1_159.1bef2216.2b804a81_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm with you, Jim.  I thought the food was good a=
nd I really think we probably had as good a mess crew as there was in the 8t=
h.

Bill Carter

--part1_159.1bef2216.2b804a81_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 03:30:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:30:37 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #847 - 3 msgs
Message-ID: <1a2.10de4ded.2b805fdd@aol.com>

--part1_1a2.10de4ded.2b805fdd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You have the right attitude and that's why you are still around. I  finished 
up
my 25 on August 16th 1943, was in the 427th squadron.  Believe the flight 
surgeon
was Major Laird.  Anyway he said with my attitude he would recommend me for
25 more.  We both landed up at Atlantic City at the same time for 
reassignment.

       Forgive me, but I am dying to know if anyone ever heard of what 
happened in
France with all the 50mm rounds that we must have dropped on them.

Abbott Smith

--part1_1a2.10de4ded.2b805fdd_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You have the right attitude and that's why you are sti=
ll around. I  finished up

my 25 on August 16th 1943, was in the 427th squadron.  Believe the flig=
ht surgeon

was Major Laird.  Anyway he said with my attitude he would recommend me=
 for

25 more.  We both landed up at Atlantic City at the same time for reass=
ignment.



       Forgive me, but I am dying to know if a=
nyone ever heard of what happened in

France with all the 50mm rounds that we must have dropped on them.



Abbott Smith

--part1_1a2.10de4ded.2b805fdd_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 04:24:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:24:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #848 - 5 msgs
References: <20030215170204.78156535FE@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <000701c2d573$4eed6010$0000a398@SHANK>

To Kevin re: "Mobile Tower" - For instrument take-offs, which were a
frequent occurrence, one of these towers were stationed close to the
beginning of the runway to signal, with a green light, that the runway was
clear. This was invaluable since we couldn't see very much in fog
conditions. Altho we conducted our own 30 second count-off when the plane
ahead of us started to roll, we invariably waited for the green clearance
light which was never more than a second or two after our own count.  I'm
fairly certain that they got the OK from a unit at the end of the runway
which monitored the take-offs.  Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #848 - 5 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. newsletters (Tom Beard)
>    2. Mysterious P47, Tail No.8567 (Gary Holtorf)
>    3. Re: Landing Sequence (Kevin Pearson)
>    4. Re: Close call on takeoff/landing (Kevin Pearson)
>    5. Re: Food on Base (Kevin Pearson)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Tom Beard" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:10:15 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] newsletters
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This morning I read the last of a two foot thick stack of "Hell's Angels"
> newsletters. They were left to me by my "Daddy Bob" Sorenson. I will never
> know everything about his service, but these newsletters opened my eyes to
a
> lot of things about the war. I cannot even tell you about how much this
> forum has tought me, and getting first hand info has really helped me to
> deal with losing dad....
>
>
> I WILL be joining asap, to get more newsletters!
>
> Meanwhile, back to work, and If I can answer any questions (about video,
tv,
> etc) please feel free to ask!
>
> Respectfully,  Tom Beard           tom@webshark.com
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Gary Holtorf" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:56:18 -0700
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P47, Tail No.8567
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> I've corrected Santa's oversight and now have a scanner.
> For a first project I scanned the photos of the P47 that was at =
> Molesworth. Bob Hand commented on this airplane and recalled a letter =
> from Hal Orenstein. I gather that Col. Raper used this to shepard the =
> group during assembly and other uses. I guess rank does have its =
> privileges. It's good to be the boss.
> In any case here are some photos from my Dad's scrapbook and a photo =
> from the front page of the "London Daily Mail" dated Feb. 23, 1945 that =
> shows this A/C. In the "clipping" scan the P47 can be seen in the upper =
> right hand corner on the taxiway. This is apparently the "Razorback" =
> that was replaced at some later time.
> The newspaper article describes the Feb 22nd raid: "6,000 planes =
> Paralise (English spelling) Reich".  The raid is characterized as the =
> greatest blow of the war at Germany's transport system.
>
> Gary Moncur has set up the following links to these photos.
> http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-01.jpg
> http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-02.jpg
> http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-03.jpg
> http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-04.jpg
> http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47clipping.jpg
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> 
> 
>  charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
I've corrected Santa's oversight and =
> now have a=20
> scanner.

> 
For a first project I scanned the =
> photos of the P47=20
> that was at Molesworth. Bob Hand commented on this airplane and recalled =
> a=20
> letter from Hal Orenstein. I =
> gather that=20
> Col. Raper used this to shepard the group during assembly and other =
> uses. I=20
> guess rank does have its privileges. It's good to be the=20
> boss.

> 
In any case here are some photos from my Dad's scrapbook and a =
>
> photo from the front page of the "London Daily Mail" =
> dated Feb.=20
> 23, 1945 that shows this A/C. In the "clipping" scan the P47 can be seen =
> in the=20
> upper right hand corner on the taxiway. This is apparently the =
> "Razorback" that=20
> was replaced at some later time.

> 
The newspaper article describes the Feb 22nd raid: "6,000 =
> planes=20
> Paralise (English spelling) Reich".  The raid is characterized =
> as the=20
> greatest blow of the war at Germany's transport system.

> 
 

> 
Gary Moncur has set up the following links to these =
> photos.

> 
 href=3D"http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-01.jpg">http://www.3=
> 03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-01.jpg
 href=3D"http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-02.jpg">http://www.3=
> 03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-02.jpg
 href=3D"http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-03.jpg">http://www.3=
> 03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-03.jpg
 href=3D"http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-04.jpg">http://www.3=
> 03rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47-04.jpg
 href=3D"http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47clipping.jpg">http://=
> www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/P47clipping.jpg

> 
 

>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0343_01C2D46B.85285F80--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:52:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Landing Sequence
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> In many movies and in some books, they show a vehicle
> at the end of the runway, sometimes with what appears
> to be a top turret Plexiglas dome and some in bright
> markings, when the planes were landing.  Some books
> say this vehicle handled radio communications and
> controled the landings.  Can anyone tell me what
> functions the people in this vehicle played versus the
> people in the control tower?  How about on takeoff?
> Did these people fire the flares that signalled
> takeoff intervals?
>
> As always, you comments are greatly appreciated!
> Cheers,
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:56:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Close call on takeoff/landing
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> What is the closest call you ever had on takeoff, or
> for that matter, on landing.....(besides being way
> over gross weight, engines misfiring, crappy weather,
> too many planes in the air at one time.........)
> Cheers!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:00:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I've posted this message before and have gotten just a
> couple of replies, but do you remember the food on
> base.  Was it good, was it sufficient, and did it
> bother you in the air?  With the difference in
> pressure at altitude, I've heard abdominal gas was a
> real, painful problem.
>
> Also, were you able to find good food off-station on
> leave?  With all of the wartime shortages, were there
> good things to be had?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 16:32:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:32:15 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food on Base
In-Reply-To: <20030215140005.97874.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Col.Patty Ryan, c/o of Carlsbad AAFB (Bombardier) met us new cadets upon our
arrival in the wee small hours.  He interrupted his welcome speech by asking,
"When was it you fellas ate last?" a qustion answered by groans and moans. With
that he turned to his Sgt., and said "Enough of this...get these men over to the
mess hall and get a steak in their bellies!"   A year or so later, a small group
of us ex-combat guys showed up as Bombardier Instructors again in the wee small
hours, and lo and behold we were met by Col.Ryan.  Again he welcomed us to the
base and asked when we'd eaten last.  Again the groans and moans and again the
good Colonel turned to his Sgt. And said, "Enough of this...get these men over
to the mess hall and get a steak in their bellies!"  This was the Colonel
portrayed by Pat O'Brien in the movie "Bombardier."  Cheers, Bob Hand  



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 17:29:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:29:34 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] USO Party photos
Message-ID: <3E4F680E.3022.53378B@localhost>

Gang,
Please take a look at these two photos and see if you recoginze 
anyone.  Both are from a party when a USO show was at 
Molesworth.  Photo 01 show Colonel Stevens amoung the group.  
Can you identiy the ladies or the other officers?

http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/pp-party01.jpg
http://www.303rdbga.com/303rdtalk-photos/pp-party02.jpg

Thanks very much.

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 16 23:08:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:08:41 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copilots
Message-ID: 

Hi guys -

There are several copilots on the 303rd Ring, so I hope some of you
might be able to help me with something I've been trying to get my mind
around for a couple of years now as I try to put together an account of
my late uncle's life as a B-17 copilot.

He started out as an enlisted man at Chanute field in 1941 and was
assigned to the 55th BG at Will Rogers Field (OKC) as an A-20 crew
chief.  His goal was to get into pilot training and in February 1942 was
accepted for cadets.  In April he arrived at the WCTC at Santa Ana,
eventually graduating in Class 42-K at Stockton with his wings and
commission.

One of his letters says he graduated a week early (he doesn't say why)
and was sent to Salt Lake.  My understanding is that SLC was where men
were sent to wait reassignment for transition training.  From Salt Lake,
he went to Pocatello and B-17 transition.  He says in a letter that it
"sure is great flying these big babies."  He also comments that he will
eventually be "given a new ship and crew to go across."  It's hard to
tell from his letters whether he had been assigned as a first pilot or
copilot at this time.  My guess is that he knew when he got to Salt Lake
City.  At some point while he was in either Pocatello or Casper, he had
to have been a copilot, because there are pictures and letters talking
about the time he spent with his first pilot and wife.  They seem to
have had a close relationship.  After they were shot down (both KIA),
the pilot's wife refers in a letter to my uncle as being like a brother
to her.

I'm trying to get a sense of what being a copilot was all about (as
compared to being a first pilot.)  I've got a decent amateur's
understanding of the difference as regards specific duties, but what I'm
trying to get my mind around is the "psychological" difference.  I
wonder is how being assigned as copilot may have affected him.  Would he
have considered it a demotion or a disappointment?  I'm sure the
reaction varied from person to person depending on their personalities,
the circumstances and how it was presented to them.

Then there was the "hurry up and wait" as he stayed on the ground in
England while the first pilot got checked out for command and the rest
of the crew flew seven missions without him.  Knowing the personalities
of the rest of the family, I can't help but think that he was frustrated
and maybe even angry about not being up there with the rest of "his
boys."

It's tough trying to get inside the head of someone who died sixty years
ago this May, and I may never be able to do it, but I hope that some of
you copilots who were in similar situations might be able to offer some
insight into what he may have thought and felt, both when he learned he
wouldn't have command of a crew and during the time he had to stand down
while the others were fighting.

I presented these questions to the 91st email group, but the
administrator thought they were too controversial to put out for
comment.  It seems to me that the 303rd group is willing to tackle
tougher questions, so I hope that this isn't considered an inappropriate
topic to discuss on the Forum.  If Gary feels it is, maybe some of you
could contact me directly.  I'm sure there were some hurt feelings and
other negative reactions when you learned your assignment, but as Jack
and Bill have often pointed out, there was a war on and many others
accepted their assignments and fates and simply made the best of it.

Any help and insights you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike McClanahan




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 02:23:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:23:28 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copilots
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3E4FE530.29086.23C16FC@localhost>

>  It seems to me that the 303rd group is willing to tackle
> tougher questions, so I hope that this isn't considered an
> inappropriate topic to discuss on the Forum.  If Gary feels it
> is, maybe some of you could contact me directly. 

Mike,
Nothing that relates to the 303rd and WWII is off limits.  If 
we stay in the right era (the 40s) and treat everyone with 
respect, everything is fair game. 

This is a very interesting question.  I would suspect that some 
co-pilots were disappointed while others were relieved to have 
less pressure (if that was the case).  Good question!

Regards,
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 02:27:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:27:01 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos
Message-ID: <3E4FE605.9154.23F5955@localhost>

Friends,
I added a bunch of new photos to the website today.  Check out 
Photo Page 8 here:
http://www.303rdbga.com/photo8.html
Any comments and identifications would be appreciated.

Thanks!
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 02:42:07 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:42:07 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copilots from one
Message-ID: 

Mike McClanahan:
     The undersigned was a copilot.  Robert J. Lynch was our Operations 
Officer. He checked out the new pilots that were assigned to the 358th 
Squadron during his watch. I heard him tell a copilot after his check ride in 
a B17."You are the best pilot I ever flew with".
         No doubt many and maybe most copilots wanted to become first pilots. 
and many did. No doubt most Vice Presidents wanted to be President and many 
did. and some of them made better Presidents than their former Boss. The same 
could be said about Copilots. Most people who were in the 303rd were 
outstanding ambitious people and hence wanted to move up.  Copilots were 
pilots Most multi-engined planes bigger than a P38 needed a copilot, so 
someone had to fill that job. It didn't mean you were not as good. It 
probably meant you just didn't have as many hours or just got out of cadets 
when they needed copilots. Most first pilots had about 100 hours B17 training 
when they went to Salt Lake City and were put on a crew and most copilots had 
about 0 hours B17 time. There of course were exceptions but that was probably 
the major difference. 
     The first pilot was the boss.  You cannot successfully rule a 4 engine 
combat airplane with a committee. The copilot was 2nd in command. Flying a 4 
engine combat airplane in close formation is hard physical labor. The pilot 
and copilot usually traded off about every 30 minutes On all the crews I flew 
on the pilots took turns on landings and take offs. That was up to the first 
pilot so no doubt there were exceptions to this.
     It was not unusual to put an experienced copilot on with a new crew as 
check pilot and either leave the new copilot home or put him on as a copilot 
with the crew that loaned out their experienced copilot to help the new crew 
with their first missions. SO your Uncle might very well have been flying 
those first missions but not with his regular crew. 
     Many crews became very close and to this day remain that way. One of the 
closest friends I still have I flew several missions as his copilot. I can't 
speak for every one but as far as this copilot was and is concerned I knew I 
was not a leader or a commander and was glad I did not have to take that 
responsibility. I knew the Buck stopped one layer above me and I was not 
unhappy with that. I was happy and satisfied that I was a damn good pilot and 
if anyone else could fly a B17 under a bridge I could fly it under a bridge 
upside down Knowing copilots as I do I suspect your uncle might very well 
have felt the same way     
     You can be very proud of him. He gave the last 4/5 of his life 
fulfilling a great essential and very necessary job for the mighty 8th Air 
Force and protecting our way of life in this the greatest country that ever 
existed on this earth. I'm personally proud to have been in the same outfit 
with him and his crew. 
     Best Wishes,
         Jack Rencher, The Happy Copilot.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 05:13:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (J.P. Bell)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:13:41 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] My father, Lt. Julian Peveril Bell, 358th Sqdn.
Message-ID: <001001c2d643$8539b620$34d01e43@default>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2D619.6D5049E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

        Hi friends.  I had been in the 8AFHS in the past and met members =
when in Massachusetts, but have been out of contact for quite a while =
and my wife (diabetic and blind) and I now live in Chester Virginia with =
my daughter, her husband and their six kids.  My father had been a =
bombardier, having been to school in Deming, NM.  He married my mother =
there 26 June 1943 (the Chaplain was Woodrow McKeve).  My father was =
killed on a mission to Berlin on 21 June 1944, a few months before my =
birth on November 11.  When he was MIA, my mother kept up correspondence =
with parents of his crewmates, a few of which lived.  She remarried when =
I was little, and I had a good upbringing, but lost track of most of my =
biological father's family  Years later, I tried to find some of them =
but was unsuccessful until I talked to the elderly mother of navigator =
Eldon Sigurdson and was referred on to Eldon himself.  This was in the =
vicinity of twenty years ago and, when I mentioned that the 8AFHS would =
love to hear from him, I was sure, he said he'd rather not.  That was =
that.  BTW, my father's regular plane was The Floose, but he was shot =
down in a no-name ship.  I do have a few things relating to his time in =
the service. For example, He signed a will on March 3, 1944 at the Army =
Air Base in Dalhart, Texas establishing his wife (my mother), Helene L. =
Bell as both beneficiary and executrix.  The three witnesses are: Mary =
Ann Schlofman of 822 Oak Ave., Dalhart, TX;  Charles D. Lloyd of the =
A.A.F. in Dalhart and of Lebanon, Tennessee; Jim M. Smith of the A.A.F =
in Dalhart and of Cordell, Oklahoma.  However, when I tried to get =
things from the records center in St. Louis a good few years ago, I only =
got record of a hospitalization for what was basically a bad cold -- the =
reason, as I suppose everyone knows, was a bad fire there that destroyed =
records.
        Well, I have blathered on for a good bit, yes?  Look forward to =
hearing back from someone.  God bless.
-- Julian P. Bell II    belljp44@earthlink.net    Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV)

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2D619.6D5049E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









        =
Hi=20
friends.  I had been in the 8AFHS in the past and met members when =
in=20
Massachusetts, but have been out of contact for quite a while and my =
wife=20
(diabetic and blind) and I now live in Chester Virginia with =
my=20
daughter, her husband and their six kids.  My father had been a =
bombardier,=20
having been to school in Deming, NM.  He married my mother there=20
26 June 1943 (the Chaplain was Woodrow McKeve).  My=20
father was killed on a mission to Berlin on 21 June 1944, a =
few months=20
before my birth on November 11.  When he was MIA, my mother kept up =

correspondence with parents of his crewmates, a few of which =
lived.  She=20
remarried when I was little, and I had a good upbringing, but lost =
track of=20
most of my biological father's family  Years later, I tried to find =
some of=20
them but was unsuccessful until I talked to the elderly mother =
of navigator=20
Eldon Sigurdson and was referred on to Eldon himself.  This was in =
the=20
vicinity of twenty years ago and, when I mentioned that the 8AFHS =
would=20
love to hear from him, I was sure, he said he'd rather not.  That =
was=20
that.  BTW, my father's regular plane was The Floose, but he was =
shot down=20
in a no-name ship.  I do have a few things relating to his time in =
the=20
service. For example, He signed a will on March 3, 1944 at the Army Air =
Base in=20
Dalhart, Texas establishing his wife (my mother), Helene L. Bell as both =

beneficiary and executrix.  The three witnesses are: Mary Ann =
Schlofman of=20
822 Oak Ave., Dalhart, TX;  Charles D. Lloyd of the A.A.F. in =
Dalhart and=20
of Lebanon, Tennessee; Jim M. Smith of the A.A.F in Dalhart and of =
Cordell,=20
Oklahoma.  However, when I tried to get things from the records =
center in=20
St. Louis a good few years ago, I only got record of a hospitalization =
for what=20
was basically a bad cold -- the reason, as I suppose everyone knows, was =
a bad=20
fire there that destroyed records.


        =
Well, I have=20
blathered on for a good bit, yes?  Look forward to hearing back =
from=20
someone.  God bless.


-- Julian P. Bell II    =
belljp44@earthlink.net &n=
bsp; =20
Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV)


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2D619.6D5049E0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 22:42:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:42:43 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos
References: <3E4FE605.9154.23F5955@localhost>
Message-ID: <000f01c2d6d5$e2bfe480$6401a8c0@desktop1>

Gary,

   I mentioned once before that I have a set of typed sheets that have the
narrative for the 303rd Continental Express overflights that I found in an
old photo album from E-Bay. Its only 3-4 pages but interesting.

 I've tried scanning them but they are transparent enough that the second
side bleeds through. I'll just snail mail them to you in case you can
extract them somehow-they'd go well with the one photo on this page. Address
to send them to ?

Bill


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Moncur" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:27 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos


> Friends,
> I added a bunch of new photos to the website today.  Check out
> Photo Page 8 here:
> http://www.303rdbga.com/photo8.html
> Any comments and identifications would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> -- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
>             http://www.303rdBGA.com
>             http://www.B17Thunderbird.com
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 17 22:57:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:57:23 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos
In-Reply-To: <000f01c2d6d5$e2bfe480$6401a8c0@desktop1>
Message-ID: <3E510663.31565.12420FC@localhost>

>    I mentioned once before that I have a set of typed sheets
>    that have the
> narrative for the 303rd Continental Express overflights that I
> found in an old photo album from E-Bay. Its only 3-4 pages but
> interesting.
> 
>  I've tried scanning them but they are transparent enough that
>  the second
> side bleeds through. I'll just snail mail them to you in case
> you can extract them somehow-they'd go well with the one photo
> on this page. Address to send them to ?

Bill,
That is wonderful.  I'll have more Continental Express photos 
to add soon.  I'll send my mailing address separately.

Thanks!
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 18 01:31:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rasinman)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:31:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos
In-Reply-To: "Bill Conklin" 's message of Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:42:43 -0500
Message-ID: <13768-3E518CD5-2608@storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net>

Dear Bill,
I took the flight that you have pictures for and would love to have
copies of them if it is at all possible.  My address is
Clyde Henning
13280 Warren Rd.
Paris, OH  44669

If there is a fee, just send me the cost and your address and I will
send you check.

Thank you so much.
Clyde Henning



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 18 18:39:03 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:39:03 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] new photos
Message-ID: <000701c2d77d$042654e0$460c6ed8@webshark.com>

I've tried scanning them but they are transparent enough that the second
side bleeds through. I'll just snail mail them to you in case you can
extract them somehow-they'd go well with the one photo on this page. Address
to send them to ?

Try putting a piece or two of paper in the scanner on top of the sheets to
block the light from coming through!






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 19 00:05:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:05:57 EST
Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] Copilots "psychological" difference
Message-ID: <1e9.235e0ed.2b842465@aol.com>

--part1_1e9.235e0ed.2b842465_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part1_1e9.235e0ed.2b842465_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: 
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <1de.23d87c5.2b830d14@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:14:12 EST
Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] Copilots "psychological" difference
To: consultmdm@MSN.com
CC: Jprencher@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_1e9.235e0ed.2b830d14_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138


--part2_1e9.235e0ed.2b830d14_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part2_1e9.235e0ed.2b830d14_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: 
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <10d.1fe11a13.2b820658@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 04:33:12 EST
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Copilots psychological difference
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
CC: Coxbije@aol.com, RGrish20@aol.com, wheller@attglobal.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

Mike McClanahan,
     As I thought about your letter after I answered it and went to bed last 
night, it dawned on me that I had assumed every one knew what it was like to 
fly a bird like a B17 in close formation in combat against an enemy like the 
Nazi fighters and antiaircraft defenses.  Shame on me. Very few, even among 
pilots ever fly close formation & especially against an enemy like we had. 
Believe me a B17 crew is misnamed. It should be a B17 TEAM. Flying the bird 
is at least a two man job & both jobs are very essential. Other than the 
Squadron lead, every pilot or copilot flying his bird has his eyes 100% of 
the time on one thing only. His lead plane. The other pilot is not having a 
nap. He must observe other planes both in the formation and the enemy's and 
initiate what ever action is necessary to avoid them. He must monitor and 
operate many systems including but not limited to engine speeds, power 
settings, gear, flaps, cowl flaps, fuel mixtures, inverters, generators, oil 
pressures, feather bad engines, radio & intercom  communications, fuel 
gauges, oil and cylinder head temperatures, enemy flak  and etc. and is the  
crew commander while the other guy is flying  
     Every body in the military has a boss (even the first pilots) except the 
Commander in Chief and even he is usually married. The first pilots want to 
be lead pilots. The lead pilots want to be Squadron C.O.s. The C.O.s want to 
be -- You get the picture. The smart pilots want to fly for the Airlines. All 
pilots want to get home.
No one that is any good is happy where they are except us copilots. We get 
the same pay if we are the same rank and If we forget to put the gear down, 
it's the first pilots fault. HA you dumb first pilots.
     Best Wishes,
         Jack, The happy copilot and now you know why.

--part2_1e9.235e0ed.2b830d14_boundary--

--part1_1e9.235e0ed.2b842465_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 19 00:20:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Libsack, Jeannie)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:20:44 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Milton "Bo" Kanz
Message-ID: <3BD8AA3B9C18D34BA5099929909CFA0502DF58F2@m0319p35.nordstrom.net>

Hello,
My name is Jeannie (Kanz) Libsack and I am the daughter of Milton (Bo) =
Kanz.  My daughter Erin, has chosen to research her grandfather's WWII =
experiences for a 7th grade heritage project.  Unfortunately, my father =
passed away in 1963 and my mother's dementia has stolen her memories. =
Any information that my brother and I have been able to find is very =
sketchy.   My father was a member of Baltes Crew.  I'm interested in any =
stories or information that anyone could forward to me regarding my =
father and the missions he was involved in.  I can be contacted at my  =
e-mail address and work number listed below.  Thank you to anyone who =
may be able to help!

Jeannie Libsack
Nordstrom Office Planning
Office:  (206)303-4343
Tie Line:  8-805-4343
Fax:  (206)303-4343
e-mail:  jeannie.libsack@nordstrom.com




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 02:28:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:28:20 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P38 Canopy-- Hole therein?
Message-ID: <42.355010a7.2b859744@aol.com>

Friend Kevin,  
     I phoned one of my old P38 days Buddies. They were transferred into 
P51s. He liked the P51 better. The 109s and 190s couldn't get away from them 
in a dive. BUT He could not remember the little hole in the canopy either so 
I did not find out.  It was sure nice to talk to him. He and his buddies are 
in no better health in their mature years than us Bomber Boys. I did get a 
report on several of my old friends, so thank you.
     Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 07:51:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:51:32 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots
In-Reply-To: <20030219070441.A86CC535FC@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: 

As usual, Jack Rencher proves he is an irreplaceable resource who is
capable of cutting through the blubber and going straight for the meat
(I shouldn't write when I'm hungry.  Don't get me started on Brussels
sprouts again).

I have no doubt that many copilots were as good or better pilots than
the aircraft commanders (Jack's 50-50 rule), and according to the only
living survivor of my uncle's crew, that was the case with him.  And
it's impossible to know what was going through someone's mind in the
absence of any reference to it in their letters.  It seems that my uncle
must have taken his assignment well, because all of the letters he wrote
after he was assigned to the crew are positive and upbeat.  Was he
disappointed?  Maybe.  Probably.  But I'm going to assume that even
though he was very competitive (a tournament golfer, among other things)
he saw and accepted the big picture.  He evidently liked and got along
very well with his first pilot, and I'm sure that helped, too.  It's of
some comfort to think that they died together as friends.

A couple of follow-up questions, if I may:

Jack said that by the time they hit Salt Lake, many first pilots had
100+ hours in B-17s.  My uncle had none since he came directly out of
cadets.  Where, especially in late 1942, would someone get those 100
hours?  If they had been in North Africa, they probably wouldn't have
been reassigned to a combat crew so soon, would they?  Would they have
gotten them as instructors after cadets?

Can someone tell me what the missions were at Pocatello (4 weeks,
December 1942, 92nd BG) and Casper (4 weeks, January 1943, 463rd
Squadron)?  Was Pocatello B-17 transition and Casper crew formation?  I
know that Salina was a concentration center, but did the crews also
train there?  Remember, I'm talking about relatively early -- February
1943.

Unfortunately my uncle's records were destroyed in the St. Louis fire,
so I'm trying to put his career together via secondary sources.  Any
help will be appreciated.

Jack, re the division of duties on the flight deck, the simplest way
I've come to describe it based on what I've learned is that essentially
one pilot was in charge of aiming the airplane and the other was
responsible for keeping it in the air, and both were hard, full-time
jobs that had to be coordinated precisely between the two of them.  And
of course none of this would have mattered if the navigator wasn't
always sure where they were, where they were going, and how to get back;
the radio operator didn't make sure they were always in touch with
people and things that could help them; the flight engineer wasn't
making sure that the pilots weren't ruining the airplane; the bombardier
wasn't sure the bombs would go off when they hit and that everyone was
still breathing; and the gunners weren't damned sure that nobody was
sneaking up on them with mischief on their minds.  In other words, it
truly was a team that was only as good as each of its members.  Do you
think that's a fair, if overly simplistic, assessment?

Thanks again for all your help.  You're truly a great bunch of guys.

Mike McClanahan



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 18:39:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:39:41 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots
References: 
Message-ID: <004001c2d90f$6ef6cc80$bb2664d8@computer>

Mike McClanahan:  I was a member of Strickland's crew which was formed at
Geiger in Spokane October 1942.  We had four weeks transition training.
Pilot  had about 24 hours in 17s, co-pilot none.  End of November
transferred to Casper for 6 weeks for further training including gunnery
(neither the navigator nor I had ever even seen a 50 cal.), bomb approach
and practice bombing and just generally getting to know the crew and the
plane,which was the primary mission of the base at that time.  First week of
Feb 1942 were posted to Smoky Hill AB, Salina. for more training flights,
especially gunnery and were issued an airplane and all the accoutrements,
including .45 cal handguns, Thompson sub -machine guns, summer uniforms
etc., thence to Homestead AB, Florida and on to England via southern route.
We always thought the summer uniform issue at Salina was a ploy to any
informants that we were obviously going to North Africa.  Sorry, can't help
you with Pocatello.

Ed Lamme, Bomb. 427th



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 20:01:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:01:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P38 Canopy-- Hole therein?
In-Reply-To: <42.355010a7.2b859744@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030220200155.10097.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

No, Jack, THANK YOU for calling your friends to answer
my question.  A few years ago there was a paperback
book on the P-38.  What I remember is there was a
square side window on the left side of the canopy.  I
saw a pic and the window, I am guessing, was about one
foot long and eight inches high close to the fuselage.
 The book was very emphatic that if this window was
not closed on takeoff, it could cause the plane to
crash - something about uneven airflow over the wing.

Jeffrey Ethell produced a video on "Flying the P-38"
and he too mentioned that one of the items on the
preflight checklist was closing this little window. 
Unfortunately, Ethell was killed a few years ago in
the P-38 he was flying.  He was an outstanding author
and a very skilled pilot.

This weekend, Jack, I am going to Elmendorf AFB here
in Anchorage to take a picture for you of a P-38 on
static display.  I was in the Lower 48 last week and
flew back to Anchorage sitting next to a man who had
done most of the structural rework on the P-38. 
Apparently, the plane was used when the Japs attacked
Dutch Harbor as a decoy for ther Midway invasion
force.  The pilot got lost and ran out of gas.  The
plane sat in a marshy area for many years before being
restored (but not to flying status.)I didn't even know
it was there!!  Chomping at the bit to go see it!!

Thanks again for all of the great information you have
imparted to us youngsters.  I can't tell you how much
I value all of your opinions.  I just wish Bill Heller
would have stuck around.
Kevin





--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Friend Kevin,  
>      I phoned one of my old P38 days Buddies. They
> were transferred into 
> P51s. He liked the P51 better. The 109s and 190s
> couldn't get away from them 
> in a dive. BUT He could not remember the little hole
> in the canopy either so 
> I did not find out.  It was sure nice to talk to
> him. He and his buddies are 
> in no better health in their mature years than us
> Bomber Boys. I did get a 
> report on several of my old friends, so thank you.
>      Best Wishes,
>             Jack
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 20:15:03 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:15:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/CoPilot Trading Places
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030220201503.18888.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Last night I watched again the video I made of Lou
LaHood (1st Pilot, 91st BG, 322nd BS) crawling through
a B-17 47 years after the war.  During the interview
in the cockpit, Lou said that when they flew formation
and if they were on the left wing of the Squadron
Lead, he and his copilot would trade places so he
could better see the Squadron Lead and to be able to
use different muscles on those long hops to the Big B.
 Did any of you ever trade places with your copilot? 
I've been in the cockpit of a B-17 and there wasn't
much room and I was only wearing shorts and a T-shirt.
 You guys had on bulky cloths and were airborne!

Lou's Copilot was Joseph Stoiber and Lou said he was
as fine a pilot as any he knew.  Lou said it did take
two men to fly the plane and Stoiber, because he was
such a good pilot, kept Lou sharp as a tack.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 21:42:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:42:46 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Aviation Cadets- Classification to 8th AF or ?
Message-ID: <122.1f2228b6.2b86a5d6@aol.com>

Mike McClanahan,
     What I am going to tell you is my own observations, experience & 
opinions. It is not out of a book. Be aware I am trusting my memory going 
back up to 62 years. I am going to tell you about me as I seem to have had a 
very similar but not exactly same course as did your Uncle. I know best what 
happened to me.
     After enlisting and/or being accepted into the Cadet program our first 
assignment was in Santa Anna California where we entered a 3 weeks? Series of 
mental, physical, psychological, intelligence and who knows what tests and 
were classified as pilot, bombardier, navigator, aircrew, ground crew or any 
one two or 3 of the above or none. I classified as pilot, bombardier and 
navigator. I chose pilot and went to a 9 weeks pilot preflight squadron. We 
did not fly but had classes in many subjects. like navigation, fuel and 
lubrication, theory of flight, Morse code, physics, etc., and lots of 
physical training. At graduation we had about 35% wash out The remaining 65% 
went to primary where we started flight training.  Most of the primary flight 
schools were run by civilians under contract and we had civilian instructors 
but had a military check ride before we graduated. The primary schools used 
Stearman PT17s, A Bi plane, Ryan PT21s? lo wing birds and Fairchild PT 22s? 
Also lo wing. birds. We soloed there. At our School,Rankin Aero Academy after 
solo we flew about 4 hours per day and had ground school and physical 
training 4 to 6 hours per day. We started cross country there and lots of 
aerobatics at Rankin. We washed out another 35% there and the remaining 65% 
went to basic.
      Basic was strictly Army with Army instructors. We flew Vultee BT13s 
with a fixed gear, a 2 position prop, a 450 radial engine & two cock; pits 
under one canopy. We took up formation, night flying and longer cross 
countrys. Also longer days. We would fly 4 hours in the forenoon, have lunch, 
then 4 hours physical training and ground school, Then 4 hours night flying 
that evening. The next day we had ground school and physical training in the 
Am, Flew 4 hours PM and did homework that evening. so we got to sleep all 
night every other night. Up to this point all our training was basically the 
same. They washed out another 30% or so.
      The remaining 65 0r 70% got to make 3 selections (first choice, 2nd and 
3rd) of their preference of what they wanted to fly. Like single engine 
fighters, twin engine fighters, twin engine bombers, transports, 4 engine 
bombers, and etc. What you chose didn't mean you got it but they were pretty 
good but they put you were they needed you and had room. I chose twin engine 
fighters and was assigned to Williams Field in Chandler Arizona, a P38 
advanced school.
     In advanced we probably most all got most of our time in North American 
AT6s A low wing bird with a 550hp radial, retractable gear, constant speed 
prop, fully aerobatic and maybe even two 30 caliber machine guns it you were 
training to be a fighter pilot. Depending on your field advanced schools flew 
maybe 10 or more hours in twins Like P322s,AT9s, AT11s, AT17s and ??? and 
maybe the single engine fighter boys might have flown something like a P40. I 
just don't remember.  They washed out very few in advanced. They had way too 
much money in us and by then we were mostly pretty darn good pilots. After 
classification all schools were basically 9 week courses
     The 4 engine men went to B17 or B24 schools where I under stand they got 
about 100 hours training in their birds. Us copilots were mostly just fresh 
out of cadets when they needed copilots and they figured, I guess, we learn 
about B17s from our first pilots while we in RTU(Replacement Training units) 
learning to work together as a crew I don't know about this as I was assigned 
as an AT6 instructor at Williams field, an assignment I did not like at all. 
I was a fighter pilot and wanted to go fight, but  no way.  After a fairly 
short time at this job I was sent to Yuma Arizona, A gunnery training school 
where We flew 8 hours per day training gunners in air to air and air to 
ground gunnery. I accumulated about 1000 hours in B17s a Bird I learned to 
love. I had about 500 hours in each seat when I was sent to Salt Lake City. 
There I was assigned as copilot on the Werner G. Goering crew His fathers 
brother was Herman Goering, the head of the German Air Force.
 It was a very interesting assignment. Goering and I are still Friends. I 
flew 35 combat missions during 1944. about half of them with Goering.
        Maybe this isn't clear. The first pilots, copilots navigators, 
Bombardiers, Engineer Gunners, Radio operator gunner and the other gunners 
after they were all trained individually were sent to salt Lake City, 
assigned on a crew and trained together for several weeks to become a team 
before we were sent or flew a plane to England and assigned to a Bomb Group.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 22:03:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:03:28 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack Goofed
Message-ID: <6d.aae712b.2b86aab0@aol.com>

Mike McClanahan'
     The Undersigned forgot to put on his last long letter:
        Best Wishes,
              Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 22:33:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:33:02 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/CoPilot Trading Places
Message-ID: <1c2.556618b.2b86b19e@aol.com>

Kevin,
     Personally I never traded places on a mission and I don't know anyone 
who did. 
Once one became accustom to flying from one seat it was somewhat of a 
transition to switch over to the other seat. I flew equally bad from either 
seat so when I flew with another pilot which was often I would put him in the 
seat he was used to. and we would stay that way.  If I was training a new 
pilot I usually put him in the left seat unless he was to be or was a copilot 
and was going to fly from the right seat. I flew quite a lot with our 
engineer or the Squadron Engineering Officer and always put them in the right 
seat as I was of the opinion we didn't have enough airplanes to ever teach 
either one of them to ever be a pilot but they could both run the gear, 
flaps, tail wheel and other levers as well as anyone. 
     Best Wishes,
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 20 23:18:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:18:42 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots
Message-ID: <19d.112ab736.2b86bc52@aol.com>

Mike McClanahan,
    Re the division of duties on the flightdeck. NO NO I must have mislead 
you. One pilot in charge of aiming the airplane and the other was responsible 
for keeping it in the air.etc  NO NO  The first pilot is the airplane 
commander even if he is a 2nd Lt. and the Copilot is a General. Ever who is 
flying the bird is responsible for aiming it, keeping it in the air, and 
every thing else. He can Ask the other pilot to do what he wants or can't 
reach as his arms are to short or he is to busy If the copilot General says I 
want to land at Reno, do so. The pilot will land at Reno but the General will 
put the gear down and lower the flaps and set the turbos and RPM when and 
where the pilot tells him to.  Keep in mind that all pilots learned to fly 
alone. They did the navigating, didn't ruin the airplane without an engineer 
and in lots of birds shot the guns. The two pilots traded off flying but 
every one else on the crew could and often did,  when not on a combat 
mission, take a nap including the resting pilot. I'll no doubt catch H---over 
this one. I suspect on some long hauls over one of the oceans they set it up 
on auto pilot and both had a nap but not on purpose. I never did but if I had 
I would deny it.
     Best Wishes.
            Jack 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 03:40:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:40:21 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots
Message-ID: 




Mike mentioned brussels sprouts. Reminds me of a story a Fort driver told me in England, about a pilot who brought his plane in for a wheels up landing in a brussels sprout field between runways. He was treated as a hero in the club that night, and everyone bought him drinks. I think it was a 303rd pilot. Does anyone know if this happened at Molesworth?


Brian S. McGuire








>From: "Mike McClanahan" 

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> 

>Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots 

>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:51:32 -0700 

> 

>As usual, Jack Rencher proves he is an irreplaceable resource who is 

>capable of cutting through the blubber and going straight for the meat 

>(I shouldn't write when I'm hungry. Don't get me started on Brussels 

>sprouts again). 

> 

>I have no doubt that many copilots were as good or better pilots than 

>the aircraft commanders (Jack's 50-50 rule), and according to the only 

>living survivor of my uncle's crew, that was the case with him. And 

>it's impossible to know what was going through someone's mind in the 

>absence of any reference to it in their letters. It seems that my uncle 

>must have taken his assignment well, because all of the letters he wrote 

>after he was assigned to the crew are positive and upbeat. Was he 

>disappointed? Maybe. Probably. But I'm going to assume that even 

>though he was very competitive (a tournament golfer, among other things) 

>he saw and accepted the big picture. He evidently liked and got along 

>very well with his first pilot, and I'm sure that helped, too. It's of 

>some comfort to think that they died together as friends. 

> 

>A couple of follow-up questions, if I may: 

> 

>Jack said that by the time they hit Salt Lake, many first pilots had 

>100+ hours in B-17s. My uncle had none since he came directly out of 

>cadets. Where, especially in late 1942, would someone get those 100 

>hours? If they had been in North Africa, they probably wouldn't have 

>been reassigned to a combat crew so soon, would they? Would they have 

>gotten them as instructors after cadets? 

> 

>Can someone tell me what the missions were at Pocatello (4 weeks, 

>December 1942, 92nd BG) and Casper (4 weeks, January 1943, 463rd 

>Squadron)? Was Pocatello B-17 transition and Casper crew formation? I 

>know that Salina was a concentration center, but did the crews also 

>train there? Remember, I'm talking about relatively early -- February 

>1943. 

> 

>Unfortunately my uncle's records were destroyed in the St. Louis fire, 

>so I'm trying to put his career together via secondary sources. Any 

>help will be appreciated. 

> 

>Jack, re the division of duties on the flight deck, the simplest way 

>I've come to describe it based on what I've learned is that essentially 

>one pilot was in charge of aiming the airplane and the other was 

>responsible for keeping it in the air, and both were hard, full-time 

>jobs that had to be coordinated precisely between the two of them. And 

>of course none of this would have mattered if the navigator wasn't 

>always sure where they were, where they were going, and how to get back; 

>the radio operator didn't make sure they were always in touch with 

>people and things that could help them; the flight engineer wasn't 

>making sure that the pilots weren't ruining the airplane; the bombardier 

>wasn't sure the bombs would go off when they hit and that everyone was 

>still breathing; and the gunners weren't damned sure that nobody was 

>sneaking up on them with mischief on their minds. In other words, it 

>truly was a team that was only as good as each of its members. Do you 

>think that's a fair, if overly simplistic, assessment? 

> 

>Thanks again for all your help. You're truly a great bunch of guys. 

> 

>Mike McClanahan 


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 03:56:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:56:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: copilots
Message-ID: <1e8.2723654.2b86fd63@aol.com>

the training using the disney donald duck characters built the mindset of 
team working togetther gets results and was proven in victory


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 04:19:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:19:42 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots
Message-ID: <001d01c2d960$757847e0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2D92E.2A931340
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I suppose I'll get shot down for putting my 2 pennies worth into this =
subject, the only flight instruction hat I had was a few hours in CTD, =
but I did fly with a great mixture of pilots and co-pilots. My =
evaluation  was that most all 1st pilots-(plane commanders)  were =
self-assusred and cocky and excepted their responsibility with =
determination and kept his crew as a good working group most of the =
co-pilots were reserved and excepted their position on the crew.
I was assigned to a crew at Sioux City IA.--the home of Soo City Sue. =
and in our training flights and in those combat flights that we flew as =
acrew, I remember that when giving=20
(I trained as a Navigator) course change directions I would be given a =
Roger by either one or the other and assumed the pilot answering was the =
one flying (or aiming the aircraft at that particular time.
My 1st pilot gave me considerable stick time and instruction in the =
right seat of the B-17, both state side and on training mission in the =
UK.
It was some 50 years after we were put together on a crew that my 1st =
pilot told me while we were playing bridge--he said "Chris, I never told =
you this but remeber that night we were flying a night mission out of =
Sioux City and we lost all the oil out of no 4 engine and I yelled at =
you "find me an aiport to land at right now!! and with in a few minutes =
you hd me a heading and it turn out to be 2 airfields in the same =
area--it was right then I decided you would be my navigator tro the =
end." So I wss, I told him how to get from Lincoln NEB  to Goose Bay to =
Iceland to Ireland to Scotland to Europe and back on at least 12 combat =
missions and returned him to Grenier Field NH after VE Day (even tho we =
almost had to ditch in the North Atlantic between Greenland and Nova =
Scocia in Sept '45. I quess I even had to direct him a little at his =
wedding in Oct '45
There was only one occasion--on a mission into the Ruhr and a lot of =
flack, that I had a pilot lose his cool.
I thank all the 1st pilots and co-pilots that I flew with for doing =
their  job with the bestof their ability.
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2D92E.2A931340
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









I suppose I'll get shot down for =
putting my 2=20
pennies worth into this subject, the only flight instruction hat I had =
was a few=20
hours in CTD, but I did fly with a great mixture of pilots and =
co-pilots. My=20
evaluation  was that most all 1st pilots-(plane commanders)  =
were=20
self-assusred and cocky and excepted their responsibility with=20
determination and kept his crew as a good working group most of the =

co-pilots were reserved and excepted their position on the =
crew.


I was assigned to a crew at Sioux City =
IA.--the=20
home of Soo City Sue. and in our training flights and in those combat =
flights=20
that we flew as acrew, I remember that when giving 


(I trained as a Navigator) course =
change directions=20
I would be given a Roger by either one or the other and assumed the =
pilot=20
answering was the one flying (or aiming the aircraft at that particular=20
time.


My 1st pilot gave me considerable stick =
time and=20
instruction in the right seat of the B-17, both state side and on =
training=20
mission in the UK.


It was some 50 years after we were put =
together on=20
a crew that my 1st pilot told me while we were playing bridge--he said =
"Chris, I=20
never told you this but remeber that night we were flying a night =
mission out of=20
Sioux City and we lost all the oil out of no 4 engine and I yelled at =
you "find=20
me an aiport to land at right now!! and with in a few minutes you hd me =
a=20
heading and it turn out to be 2 airfields in the same area--it was right =
then I=20
decided you would be my navigator tro the end." So I wss, I told him how =
to get=20
from Lincoln NEB  to Goose Bay to Iceland to Ireland to Scotland to =
Europe=20
and back on at least 12 combat missions and returned him to Grenier =
Field NH=20
after VE Day (even tho we almost had to ditch in the North Atlantic =
between=20
Greenland and Nova Scocia in Sept '45. I quess I even had to direct him =
a little=20
at his wedding in Oct '45


There was only one occasion--on a =
mission into the=20
Ruhr and a lot of flack, that I had a pilot lose his cool.


I thank all the 1st pilots and =
co-pilots that I=20
flew with for doing their  job with the bestof their=20
ability.


LeRoy Christenson


Navigator 


------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2D92E.2A931340--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 08:32:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 03:32:13 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters
Message-ID: 

Leroy,
     Thanks for putting in your 2 pennies worth.  You hit the pilots right on 
the head with your character analysis.  They were lucky to have a navigator 
like you. I would feel blessed to have you on our crew where I could say 
"Roger" rather than "What do you mean I THINK we should turn to ABOUT 390 
degrees"??
     Very Best Wishes  
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 08:44:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:44:11 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Flight deck duties
In-Reply-To: <20030221070506.7CDB75369B@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: 

Hi Jack (Oops.  I forgot) -

Maybe I was being a little too clever in my description of the pilots'
duties.  What I meant to imply was that the job of keeping a B-17 where
it was supposed to be took both pilots working pretty hard at times,
with considerable help from the other eight guys.  Of course the first
pilot was always in charge, but as I understand it (especially on
takeoffs, landings and tough maneuvering), generally one pilot was
flying the plane and giving the orders (aiming it, in my shorthand)
while the other watched temperatures, pressures, gear, flaps and all the
other things that the one flying it didn't have enough hands or eyes for
(making sure it stayed in the air like it was supposed to, in other
words).  But yes, the first pilot was always the aircraft commander, no
question.

Now when the copilot "had the plane" would the roles be temporarily
reversed and he would be the one calling for checks, flaps, gear, etc?
I would think that would have to be the case, or the copilot might find
himself burning up an engine or landing wheels up.

Also, when the going got tough, such as turning into the bomb run, or
encountering heavy fighters or flak, would the first pilot always take
the plane back, or might he let the copilot keep it?  Since regardless
of who broke the plane, the command pilot got stuck with the check, I
would imagine he would want to be in control when the wickets got
sticky.  Fair guess?  But let's just suppose that the first pilot had
complete confidence in his right-seater.  Might he let him fly through
the drop zone for the experience?

My flying experience is limited to about 10 hours dual in a 172
(chickened out during the stall practice -- never got comfortable making
a perfectly good airplane stop flying so high above the ground), so my
ability to relate to wrestling a four-engine bomber is roughly zero or
maybe even less.

Thanks for helping me understand.

Best wishes,

Mike McClanahan




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 09:54:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:54:11 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Transition assignments
In-Reply-To: <20030221070506.7CDB75369B@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: 

Ed, Jack and Leroy -

Thanks for sharing your experiences of your transitions to B-17s.  It
has helped my understanding considerably.  I think my uncle's path was,
indeed, similar to yours.

Ed - re your time at Casper and Salina:  it sounds like you may have
been there at roughly the same time as my uncle.  He was in Casper in
January 1943 and Salina in February.  On March 3 he flew the southern
route over in the Col. Harris group, arriving in England in mid-March
and assigned to the 91st/324th on 3 April 43.

I wonder if you might have been on the same flight over.  Is there a
chance you may have met any of my uncle's crew?  The first pilot was
John (Jack) Miller, copilot Roscoe Black, Jr. (Blackie or Ross - my
uncle), Navigator John Ragsdale, Bombardier David Snow, Engineer David
Fishburn, R/O Oscar Stuart, and gunners Bill Spofford, Robert Abt, Guy
Wyatt and Newell Lane.  Spofford replaced Fishburn as Engineer, Francis
"Shorty" Trahan took over the ball turret, and Abt and Wyatt were
replaced by Curtiss Pope and Ron Taylor in the waist.  Only Snow,
Spofford, Trahan, Abt and Lane survived the war, and Spofford is the
only one still alive.  I'd love to know more about the trip over from
you or anyone else who may have been on it and would be thrilled to
learn that you knew any of them.

Leroy - I believe you were the one who originally brought up the subject
of Brussels sprouts on the Ring last fall, right?  Something about
dropping a load on a farm?  I sent you a thank you note for your part in
trying to rid the world of the insidious miniature cabbage, including a
great recipe for cooking the little buggers, but it didn't pass muster
for the ring.  Too little war and too much cooking.  Did you ever get a
copy of it?

Thanks again to all of you for giving so generously of your time and
knowledge.

Mike McClanahan



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 17:38:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030221173849.75404.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

When you arrived in Europe, were you or your crew
assigned to a CCRC?  It appears that when most groups
went to England, the air and ground contingents went
as a group to the new base.  Those arriving after that
did some time in a CCRC.

Questions:
1.  If assigned to a CCRC, where was it?
2.  How long were you there?
3.  Was the CCRC at an air field?
4.  How did you find out which group you had been
assigned to?
5.  Did any of you live with English families, or were
there accomodations at the CCRCs?
6.  What did you do while at the CCRC?

Thanks!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 17:38:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030221173849.75404.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

When you arrived in Europe, were you or your crew
assigned to a CCRC?  It appears that when most groups
went to England, the air and ground contingents went
as a group to the new base.  Those arriving after that
did some time in a CCRC.

Questions:
1.  If assigned to a CCRC, where was it?
2.  How long were you there?
3.  Was the CCRC at an air field?
4.  How did you find out which group you had been
assigned to?
5.  Did any of you live with English families, or were
there accomodations at the CCRCs?
6.  What did you do while at the CCRC?

Thanks!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 21 22:42:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:42:18 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Co Pilots
Message-ID: <001501c2d9fa$9c696740$d793bbd0@cts>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2D9B7.6F247CE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi this is Spider Smith:
 After reading Jack Renchers Diatribe about training ,I must answer. =
Everything Jack went through on the west coast I went through on the =
east coast. Basic Training at Atlantic city N.J.
 College Training at Penn State Testing and asignment at Nashville Tenn. =
Cadet School at Maxwell field Alabama. Primary at Union city Tenn. Pt23 =
Fairchild (PT 19 with Radial Engine) , Basic at Newport Ark. BT 13 =
Vultee Vibrator, Advanced at Blythville Ark AT 9 Curtace Twin Engine =
Brick ( Killed Over Twenty trainees) Our Class Graduated On Feb 8 1944 =
we had 320 pilots graduate , 20 went to training in PBy's as Air Sea =
Aescue. 150 went to B17's as Co pilots and the unlucky ones went to =
B24's ( The Box The B17 Came In) as Copilots.=20
 I went to Salt Lake City to be assigned to a Crew " Nafius Crew "
We went to Ardmore Oklahoma  to train as a crew The Pilot Verner " =
Harry" Nafius had about 100 hrs in a B17 before we met as a crew . We =
flew about 120 houres in crew training . When we finished at Ardmore we =
went to Lincoln Neb. and Picked up a B17 which we flew across the North =
Atlantic, We were supposed to land at St Andrews in Scotland ,it was =
fogged in and we were vectored to Nuts Corner Ireland . We then flew to =
England and turned in the Aircraft and took the Train to Molesworth.
 I flew 35 missions on the Nafius Crew and on the last ten missions I =
was chosen to land the Airplane after every Mission because Harry's eyes =
werent too good. After completing my Tour I was chosen to fly a second =
tour in P51s in the First Scouting Force. See=20
Scouting Force under Little Friends=20
 < www.littlefriends.co.uk> Enjoy

      Dick " Spider" Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2D9B7.6F247CE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi this is Spider Smith:


 After reading Jack Renchers =
Diatribe about=20
training ,I must answer. Everything Jack went through on the west coast =
I went=20
through on the east coast. Basic Training at Atlantic city =
N.J.


 College Training at Penn State =
Testing and=20
asignment at Nashville Tenn. Cadet School at Maxwell field Alabama. =
Primary at=20
Union city Tenn. Pt23 Fairchild (PT 19 with Radial Engine) , Basic at =
Newport=20
Ark. BT 13 Vultee Vibrator, Advanced at Blythville Ark AT 9 Curtace Twin =
Engine=20
Brick ( Killed Over Twenty trainees) Our Class Graduated On Feb 8 1944 =
we had=20
320 pilots graduate , 20 went to training in PBy's as Air Sea Aescue. =
150 went=20
to B17's as Co pilots and the unlucky ones went to B24's ( The Box The =
B17 Came=20
In) as Copilots. 


 I went to Salt Lake City to be =
assigned to a=20
Crew " Nafius Crew "


We went to Ardmore Oklahoma  to =
train as a=20
crew The Pilot Verner " Harry" Nafius had about 100 hrs in a B17 before =
we met=20
as a crew . We flew about 120 houres in crew training . When we finished =
at=20
Ardmore we went to Lincoln Neb. and Picked up a B17 which we flew across =
the=20
North Atlantic, We were supposed to land at St Andrews in Scotland ,it =
was=20
fogged in and we were vectored to Nuts Corner Ireland . We then flew to =
England=20
and turned in the Aircraft and took the Train to =
Molesworth.


 I flew 35 missions on the Nafius =
Crew and on=20
the last ten missions I was chosen to land the Airplane after every =
Mission=20
because Harry's eyes werent too good. After completing my Tour I was =
chosen to=20
fly a second tour in P51s in the First Scouting Force. See =



Scouting Force under Little Friends =



 < www.littlefriends.co.uk>=20
Enjoy


 


      Dick " =
Spider"=20
Smith


 


------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2D9B7.6F247CE0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 22 03:38:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:38:36 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Co Pilots
Message-ID: 

spider quite credible to be sure


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 22 03:57:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:57:17 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers
References: <20030221173849.75404.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001701c2da26$7ee144a0$0401a8c0@billowen>

Kevin, this info is from a diary kept by a waist gunner on the Joseph Palmer
crew, 360th Squadron.
Question 1: They arrived at Bovingdon (near Hemel Hempstead and Watford) on
3-22-43.
Question 2: They left on 4-7-43 and went to Molesworth.
Question 3: He did not mention whether or not Bovingdon was an airfield.
Someone else might know this.
Question 4: They apparently didn't know until they arrived at Molesworth
which Squadron they were assigned to.
Question 5: They were quartered in an old W.A.A.F. section living in what he
called half-moon barracks. He said it was a one mile walk to get to school
and chow.
Question 6: they studied German combat tactics, intelligence, etc.
I hope this helps.

Cheers, Bill Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers


> When you arrived in Europe, were you or your crew
> assigned to a CCRC?  It appears that when most groups
> went to England, the air and ground contingents went
> as a group to the new base.  Those arriving after that
> did some time in a CCRC.
>
> Questions:
> 1.  If assigned to a CCRC, where was it?
> 2.  How long were you there?
> 3.  Was the CCRC at an air field?
> 4.  How did you find out which group you had been
> assigned to?
> 5.  Did any of you live with English families, or were
> there accomodations at the CCRCs?
> 6.  What did you do while at the CCRC?
>
> Thanks!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 22 04:33:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:33:30 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] b.sprouts
Message-ID: <001701c2da2b$8e19ce60$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike-
yes I was the one who tossed up the little buggerrs last year. I think =
it was always our hope that any errant drop thru the overcast if not on =
the target it surely must have hit a field of b. sprouts somewhere down =
in that german countryside. I have a copy of your recipe and passed it =
around to a few fellows t our locl 8th AF luncheon. We have some 15th =
AF, Navy and Marine Corp fliers who also attend, the 15th AF guys didn't =
really get it, I quess they didn't see many in Italy. But the guys who =
had been in England knew and still do not look the little buggers in the =
eye.
LeRoy Christenson
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Mike-


yes I was the one who tossed up the =
little buggerrs=20
last year. I think it was always our hope that any errant drop thru the =
overcast=20
if not on the target it surely must have hit a field of b. sprouts =
somewhere=20
down in that german countryside. I have a copy of your recipe and passed =
it=20
around to a few fellows t our locl 8th AF luncheon. We have some =
15th AF,=20
Navy and Marine Corp fliers who also attend, the 15th AF guys didn't =
really get=20
it, I quess they didn't see many in Italy. But the guys who had been in =
England=20
knew and still do not look the little buggers in the eye.


LeRoy =
Christenson


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb 22 06:00:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:00:32 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers
Message-ID: <143.b3f4123.2b886c00@aol.com>

Kevin,
     My memory is a bit hazy on this but Bill Owens letter helped me a bit. 
We went to England on an English ship, The Aquatania, if I spelled it close. 
I understand it was the third biggest ocean liner in the world behind the two 
English Queens. We went alone, not in a convoy. It was packed. Thousands of 
GI's on it from the bottom hole to the top deck. It had an English crew, I 
drew an assignment, a 4 hour submarine watch every day on the Port side of 
the Bridge. Half the time it was so foggy I couldn't even see the water. I 
spotted one submarine on the horizon. I reported it to the mate 
(first,second,third or forth) I don't remember which.  We studied it for 
about 10 minutes.  He wondered why the radar had not picked it up. He thought 
it might be a whale. Pretty soon it spouted a big spew of water and there 
went my sub. About the 5th day out I spotted a big convoy of ships crossing 
on the horizon in front of us. They turned out to be a big bunch of Rock 
Islands sticking up off the coast..Now what I was going to tell you.
          I didn't know what a CCRC was when you asked. but when we first got 
to England the two pilots off each crew and the navigators ( I don't remember 
where the rest of our crew went maybe to a CCRC) Went to a place called 
Bovingdon. It was an airport, close to and N.W. of London as I remember. We 
were quartered right next to a runway. I don't remember flying while there As 
I remember we were there about 2 weeks and studied the GEE box and watched 
the V-1s go over, by, and come down. We were there about 2 weeks and then 
went to the 358th in the 303rd. I don't remember the dates but it was early 
in 44.  
     Thanks for your letter Spider and comments on the Curtis AT 9. As I 
remember it had only one speed. That was 120 MPH. That was its stall speed, 
top speed, cruise speed, approach speed, and touch down speed. It's single 
engine ceiling was 2000 feet below sea level. I think its minimum speed to 
hold altitude on one engine was around 150 MPH but I don;t know  I never 
tried it as it was probably red lined at 121.    
     Best Wishes,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 23 03:22:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:22:27 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #853 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: <131.1af7397e.2b899873@aol.com>

--part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Was Curt Olsen ever  a copilot on Stricks crew?????
Abbott Smith 427th Jan to Aug 43

--part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Was Curt Olsen ever  a copilot on Stricks crew???=
??

Abbott Smith 427th Jan to Aug 43

--part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 23 08:36:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 01:36:00 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
In-Reply-To: <20030223070436.CE7E853586@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: 

Kevin -

The 11th Combat Crew Replacement Center was in Bovingdon northwest of
London and a little northeast of VIII Bomber Command HQ at High Wycombe.
My research tells me that it was a collection and dispersal center for
new crews arriving in England, sort of like Salt Lake City was in the
US.  I think that most, if not all, of the replacements for the 8th AF
went through there on their way to their ultimate assignments.  As Jack
mentioned, they spent a couple of weeks there getting updated on what
they would need to know as they entered the European Theater.

Mike McClanahan



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 23 13:51:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 08:51:26 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #855 - 3 msgs
References: <20030223070434.4D8F9535DB@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <001701c2db42$a9c21ab0$0000a398@SHANK>

Quick note to Jack - The V-1's started flying on June 12, 1944. It just
happened to be the day we arrived in England. The local newspaper's headline
the next morning was "Pilotless planes bomb London". Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 2:04 AM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #855 - 3 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. b.sprouts (Leroy Audrey)
>    2. Re: CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers (Jprencher@aol.com)
>    3. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #853 - 12 msgs (AMS303@aol.com)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:33:30 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] b.sprouts
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Mike-
> yes I was the one who tossed up the little buggerrs last year. I think =
> it was always our hope that any errant drop thru the overcast if not on =
> the target it surely must have hit a field of b. sprouts somewhere down =
> in that german countryside. I have a copy of your recipe and passed it =
> around to a few fellows t our locl 8th AF luncheon. We have some 15th =
> AF, Navy and Marine Corp fliers who also attend, the 15th AF guys didn't =
> really get it, I quess they didn't see many in Italy. But the guys who =
> had been in England knew and still do not look the little buggers in the =
> eye.
> LeRoy Christenson
> ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> 
> 
>  charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Mike-

> 
yes I was the one who tossed up the =
> little buggerrs=20
> last year. I think it was always our hope that any errant drop thru the =
> overcast=20
> if not on the target it surely must have hit a field of b. sprouts =
> somewhere=20
> down in that german countryside. I have a copy of your recipe and passed =
> it=20
> around to a few fellows t our locl 8th AF luncheon. We have some =
> 15th AF,=20
> Navy and Marine Corp fliers who also attend, the 15th AF guys didn't =
> really get=20
> it, I quess they didn't see many in Italy. But the guys who had been in =
> England=20
> knew and still do not look the little buggers in the eye.

> 
LeRoy =
> Christenson

>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2D9F9.4269A8A0--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:00:32 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs (Combat Crew Replacement Centers
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Kevin,
>      My memory is a bit hazy on this but Bill Owens letter helped me a
bit.
> We went to England on an English ship, The Aquatania, if I spelled it
close.
> I understand it was the third biggest ocean liner in the world behind the
two
> English Queens. We went alone, not in a convoy. It was packed. Thousands
of
> GI's on it from the bottom hole to the top deck. It had an English crew, I
> drew an assignment, a 4 hour submarine watch every day on the Port side of
> the Bridge. Half the time it was so foggy I couldn't even see the water. I
> spotted one submarine on the horizon. I reported it to the mate
> (first,second,third or forth) I don't remember which.  We studied it for
> about 10 minutes.  He wondered why the radar had not picked it up. He
thought
> it might be a whale. Pretty soon it spouted a big spew of water and there
> went my sub. About the 5th day out I spotted a big convoy of ships
crossing
> on the horizon in front of us. They turned out to be a big bunch of Rock
> Islands sticking up off the coast..Now what I was going to tell you.
>           I didn't know what a CCRC was when you asked. but when we first
got
> to England the two pilots off each crew and the navigators ( I don't
remember
> where the rest of our crew went maybe to a CCRC) Went to a place called
> Bovingdon. It was an airport, close to and N.W. of London as I remember.
We
> were quartered right next to a runway. I don't remember flying while there
As
> I remember we were there about 2 weeks and studied the GEE box and watched
> the V-1s go over, by, and come down. We were there about 2 weeks and then
> went to the 358th in the 303rd. I don't remember the dates but it was
early
> in 44.
>      Thanks for your letter Spider and comments on the Curtis AT 9. As I
> remember it had only one speed. That was 120 MPH. That was its stall
speed,
> top speed, cruise speed, approach speed, and touch down speed. It's single
> engine ceiling was 2000 feet below sea level. I think its minimum speed to
> hold altitude on one engine was around 150 MPH but I don;t know  I never
> tried it as it was probably red lined at 121.
>      Best Wishes,
>            Jack
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: AMS303@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:22:27 EST
> To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #853 - 12 msgs
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> --part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Was Curt Olsen ever  a copilot on Stricks crew?????
> Abbott Smith 427th Jan to Aug 43
>
> --part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>  =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Was Curt Olsen ever  a copilot on Stricks
crew???=
> ??

> Abbott Smith 427th Jan to Aug 43
>
> --part1_131.1af7397e.2b899873_boundary--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 13:58:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 05:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030224135829.427.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com>

There is always an exception to the rule. Our crew
dropped off a B-17G at Valley, Wales then traveled
directly to the 303rd arriving February 1, 1945. We
trained there and flew our first mission on February
15th.

Bill Runnels, Bombardier





--- Mike McClanahan  wrote:
> Kevin -
> 
> The 11th Combat Crew Replacement Center was in
> Bovingdon northwest of
> London and a little northeast of VIII Bomber Command
> HQ at High Wycombe.
> My research tells me that it was a collection and
> dispersal center for
> new crews arriving in England, sort of like Salt
> Lake City was in the
> US.  I think that most, if not all, of the
> replacements for the 8th AF
> went through there on their way to their ultimate
> assignments.  As Jack
> mentioned, they spent a couple of weeks there
> getting updated on what
> they would need to know as they entered the European
> Theater.
> 
> Mike McClanahan
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb 23 20:46:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:46:34 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #853 - 12 msgs
References: <131.1af7397e.2b899873@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2db7c$a7cf3f00$8f2764d8@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2DB39.98EA35A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Curt Olsen was copilot from time crew was formed at Geiger in Octr 42  =
until made a first pilot approximately July of 43 after which was =
assigned to B-29s somewhere in Pacific.  He was a very close friend and =
we met quite a few times during the 60s, 70s and 80s until his death.

Ed Lamme', Bomb
Strickland crew 427ty
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2DB39.98EA35A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Curt Olsen was copilot from time crew was formed at =
Geiger in=20
Octr 42  until made a first pilot approximately July of 43 after =
which was=20
assigned to B-29s somewhere in Pacific.  He was a very close friend =
and we=20
met quite a few times during the 60s, 70s and 80s until his =
death.


 


Ed Lamme', Bomb


Strickland crew 427ty


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2DB39.98EA35A0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 17:40:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 09:40:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs/Bovingdon
In-Reply-To: <001701c2db42$a9c21ab0$0000a398@SHANK>
Message-ID: <20030224174032.95777.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks to all who responded to my CCRC question.  I
did a little research on Bovingdon, and it was an
airfield, first occupied by the RAF and then the 8th. 
You may want to check out this website:

http://www.bovingdon.org/bbb/index.htm

There is a very good discription of the base and its
history.

I have heard (can't substantiate) that Bovingdon is
where The War Lover was filmed and part of the second
Memphis Belle.

What follows is from the above mentioned website:

THE REMAINING MONTHS OF 1942
======================================================

92nd Bomb Group (Heavy) Including the 327th Squadron
Organizes, constructs and operates the first 8th USAAF
CCRC Combat Crew Replacement Center at Bovingdon
England.



The Center trained new replacements from the States to
get them ready for combat in the ETO.

It was obviously a very difficult task, considering
the problems with morale, especially among the new
arrivals, as they became instantly aware of the high
mortality rate of those who had arrived earlier.

The Eighth AF Bomber Command attempted to deal with
this
very serious morale problem by presenting an air show
to illustrate the power and strength that would
protect these newly arrived airmen...

The following is a Personal account of that air show
from a P-38 Pilot Arthur L. Thornsen 55th Fighter
Group...
===========================================================

I flew to Bovingdon which was a replacement depot for
bomber crews who had recently arrived from training
fields in the States. There existed at this station a
very serious morale problem as the incoming bomber
crews were made instantly aware of the high mortality
rate of their brethren who had arrived earlier. Bomber
Command indeed was suffering heavy losses. To counter
this pit of despair the bomber crews found themselves
in, senior officers in their infinite wisdom, decided
that an air show would turn the situation around.

After landing, I taxied behind a jeep to a designated
hardstand, shut the engines down and climbed into the
jeep to be driven to the Operations Shack. On the way
I saw hundreds of air crew members lined up parallel
to the runway I had just landed on. A flight of B-17s
were preparing to take off.

At the Operations building, I reported to the officer
in charge of the show, a Colonel. He introduced me to
two other pilots he had been talking to. They had also
been selected to take part in the impending rat race.
I did not retain their names as my mind was on the
challenge that lay ahead, but one, a little fellow
with a moon face and a cock of the barnyard strut was
a P-47 pilot. The other officer also a P-47 pilot, was
a stocky, freckle faced redhead who was rather quiet
and seemed about as pleased with this assignment as I
was.

The Colonel said "I'm not going to tell you boys what
to do. I'm sure you can cook something up yourselves.
All I ask is that you give these bomber boys something
to cheer about. Show them the kind of protection
they'll get when those 109s start squirting at them!
Show them how you can handle those crates, but do it
on the deck. You'll take off in twenty minutes. The
heavies are giving them a show right now!" With that
he turned to another group of officers, who were there
apparently, as spectators.

"Well", said the cocky 47 pilot," I'll lead this
thing." That was just about what I expected him to
say. "Here's what we'll do. We'll take off in
formation. Thunderbolt on my left, Lightning on my
right." The other Thunderbolt pilot and a I looked at
each other in tacit agreement that this little runt
was a fruitcake. At that moment the flight of B-17s
roared down the runway at low level. When the noise
subsided, The cocky pilot continued, "We'll climb to
5,000 feet, then I'll peel off, Thunderbolt second and
Lightning last, all line astern. I'll pull her out on
the deck and roll her right in front of the tower. You
fellas' do the same."

Thunderbolt pilot and I looked at each other again.
Now we were positive this guy was a fruitcake. We were
all three second lieutenants so neither of us
outranked the other where a question of leadership was
involved. It was just that this cocky pilot was a
pushy type and we were both foolish enough to let him
take charge. He was still babbling. "Then we'll pull
up, get a little sky beneath us and do a loop, coming
out of it right on the deck again, balls out! From
then on, it'll be follow the leader. I'll Lead Okay?"

We both nodded to him and he lit up a cigar that was
too big for him and strolled over to a window where he
could watch the heavies. Thunderbolt pilot looked at
me and winked. I guess neither of us cared if this
fruitcake wanted to lead the show and have his moment
in glory, out front. Thunderbolt pilot said "He's an
eager beaver. If he lives long enough, he'll be a
general some day."
"He's a fruitcake," I said, and we each fired up a
cigarette.

Outside of operations, we found the little fruitcake
pilot waiting for us in a jeep. Shortly, we were out
where our three ships were parked on the hardstands
about a quarter of a mile from the tower. The ground
crews had checked them over thouroughly and topped off
the gas tanks. We dropped off the Thunderbolt pilot at
his ship and he winked at me again as he got out of
the jeep.
"Cheers," he said and walked over to his ship. We
pulled over to the next hardstand where the little
fruitcakes 47 was parked. He got out.

"Let's keep a real tight formation when we climb outa'
here, then loosen it up when we go down on the deck,
Okay?"

"Okay!" I said and the jeep driver put his machine in
gear and took me over to where my Lightning was
crouched. The crew chief, a staff sergeant, met me.
"All set?" I asked.
"Yes sir. She's a fine ship. I sure hope you fellows
can buck up these air crews. Their morale isn't so hot
right now."

'We'll do what we can," I said. "But to tell you the
truth, Sergeant, my morale isn't so hot either." His
jaw dropped and I am sure he expected a pep talk from
me, but he helped me into the cockpit and into my
parachute harness and shortly I was turning the
engines over. I turned on the radio to channel C.

Fruitcake was already jabbering, "Got the tower okay
for take off. Let's go boys." He pulled his 47 out of
his hardstand and taxiied in front of me, whereupon I
pulled out and followed him down the taxi strip.
Thunderbolt pulled out behind me. At the end of the
runway we stopped to run up our engines and check the
magnetos. My engines checked out fine and apparently
the others did too. We pulled out onto the runway and
started our takeoff roll in formation. We were soon
airborne with our wheels coming up immediately.
Suddenly "fruitcake" peeled up in a tight left turn,
almost driving the Thunderbolt into the ground.
Thunderbolt had to slide under "fruitcake" and came up
on my left wing. Now we were in echelon. Its going to
be a long afternoon, I thought.

After several hundred feet of climbing, Thunderbolt
slid into position on "fruitcakes" left wing. At 5,000
feet and east of the field, the radio came to life,
"Okay boys, I'm going in!" It was "fruitcake" and he
peeled off and pushed into a thirty degree dive, lined
up on the runway from which we had just taken off.
Thunderbolt followed him by about ten ships lengths
and I rolled over at an identical spacing and followed
Thunderbolt.

On the way down I could see the hundreds of air crew
members on the ground, watching the show. I hoped they
would enjoy it. Now "fruitcake" was leveling off on
the deck and went into his roll. Suddenly a huge flame
blossomed out on the runway where "fruitcake had been
and Thunderbolt pulled out of his dive.

"Geez! I shouted to myself, "The silly bastard let the
stick come back too soon!" I had leveled off now and
the Thunderbolt pulled up on my right wing. As we
circled the field, I could see fire trucks, jeeps and
a meat wagon race out to where the burning and smoking
wreckage lay strewn on the runway. Meat wagon hell, I
thought, They'll need a vacuum cleaner to pick the
little guy up.

Suddenly the radio crackled. It was Thunderbolt pilot:
"I don't believe it!" he cried, "What do we do now?
fool around up here or what?"
I punched the mike button, "Piss on it!" I shouted,
"I'm going home!"
"Sounds like a good idea," he replied, "Good luck!"
and Thunderbolt peeled off and set a heading for his
home field. I did the same.

All the way back I felt sorry, more for the air crews
that needed some encouragement, that I did for the
"fruitcake" pilot. What a job we did for their morale.
On the other hand, looking at it realistically, we
reinforced their belief that not everyone survives
this war. 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 19:15:07 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:15:07 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Transition assignments
References: 
Message-ID: <000a01c2dc39$0be81180$fb2664d8@computer>

Mike:  Re time spent in Casper and Salina.  You are correct as we were there
at approx the same time.  I can't locate my records but I do know we were in
Salina last week in January and, if I recall correctly, left about 3rd week
in Feb.  We were not attaached to any group.  There were six crews but the
only ones I knew was the Stallings crew.  We were fying as individuals.
When we left Trinidad on the way to Natal we were ordered to land at Zandery
Field in Dutch Guiana as there was a possibility that sugar had been added
to fuel.  We were the only crew at Zandery and were there two days while
fuel system was checked, then on to Natal.  We were delayed three days in
Natal awaiting six Ferry Command P38s for trip to Ascension Island as there
was radio silence because of Uboat presence in that part of Atlantic.  From
Ascension we flew to Dakar for RON next dayleft for Marrakech.  We developed
engine trouble and lost #3 and were forced to land at an AACS station at a
small Camel Corp Fort at Tindouf, in the Sahara.  Three days later engine
was repaired and we flew to Marrakech and one week later around the Iberian
Peninsula to Dear old Blighty at Torquay thence by train to Bovingdon for a
couple of weeks thence on to Molesworth, ar
  riving there the last week in March.
I do not recall meeting your uncle or any of his crew,but that's not
surprising given the conditions at that time and we knew Stallings crew
because of the Army's predeliction for alphabetical order.  They were right
ahead of us on any orders, etc.  Hope this helps you.

Ed Lamme'   B  427th



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 20:02:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dale Jensen)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:02:17 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Squadron identification
References: <20030114134003.6AC515358D@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <001801c2dc3f$a2b05270$3ff9dd0c@DKCKJ>

I have a couple of questions concerning aircraft markings I don't think have
been addressed before on any forum.  Several 8th AF B-17 groups, including
the 303rd, painted the two-letter squadron codes and individual aircraft
letter on the fuselages of their aircraft (and a/c letter on the fin)
throughout the war.  Other groups did this initially but later discontinued
the practice and only painted the individual aircraft letter on the vertical
fin.  The 1st Division's 457th BG and several 3rd Division groups never
displayed their assigned squadron codes but did display the aircraft letter
on the fin.  Some of the units that didn't display squadron codes used
colored nose bands, engine cowls, or prop hubs to differentiate squadron
assignments when colored markings were introduced.  My questions are; 1.Were
the squadron code letters and individual letter on the fuselage a genuine
aid to identification?  2. Would a switch to squadron colors (instead of
letters) have made identification easier/faster?

Dale Jensen




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 20:11:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:11:45 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Medical facilities
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BBCD@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list,
What were the medical facilities like at Molesworth?  Did you only treat
minor wounds or did you have a full operating capacity?  I would assume that
depending on the seriousness of the wound you could stay on at Molesworth
for recovery or be sent elsewhere.  Where was this elsewhere location?  And
what level of wound would send you to that elsewhere location?

Nursing staff:  Male/female?  Yank/Brit?

Were you allowed to land at any base if you had a seriously wounded crewman
in order to get them care as quickly as possible?

Thanks! 
Dave


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 22:30:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:30:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Squadron identification
In-Reply-To: <001801c2dc3f$a2b05270$3ff9dd0c@DKCKJ>
Message-ID: <20030224223044.73658.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Dale:  You should look at Roger Freeman's "Mighty
Eighth War Paint and Heraldry."  Freeman covers it
all.
Cheers,
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 22:59:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:59:11 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CCRCs/Bovingdon I'm Distrubed
Message-ID: <182.177daada.2b8bfdbf@aol.com>

Kevin Pearson et al.    
        Several things in this long letter upset me. I know that things 
change with time but this conveyed a bunch of items that I did not see or 
feel when our crew went Bovingdon in 1944.
       
     Number 1. Moral.  We had several B17 crews there for about 2 weeks. The 
only training we got there was the introduction to the GEE system for the 
pilots and Navigators.  I saw NO moral problem. We all knew about the loses 
our crews were having well before we ever got to England. Any man on flying 
status, Officer or enlisted, could request to be taken off flying status any 
time he requested and would be taken off the crew.  Very few ever made such a 
request. When we went from 10 men to 9 and eliminated one of the waist 
gunners, the two usually drew straws. Few of them volunteered. 

     Number 2. Formation in unlike airplanes. Other than straight and level 
flight close (Tight) formation with unlike airplanes (and this INCLUDES 
formation take offs and landings) is, in my opinion, not only inherently 
stupid it is outright dangerous). It is hard for me to believe that a P38 
pilot and a P47 pilot who were sharp enough to make it through Cadets would 
get involved in such a situation, Especially if they didn't know each other 
and their formation skills I won't go into the whys as all the pilots that 
flew formation already know and the non pilots wouldn't care.

     Nuff said, Maybe too much, Best Wishes,
              Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 23:30:47 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:30:47 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
In-Reply-To: <20030224135829.427.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Hi Bill...we did the same...surrendered that spanking new "G" at Valley
thinking it was "ours" (yeah, sure!!) and then a hasty ride to Molesworth. We
got there just in time to see the squadron peel off on their return to the
base...be still  my little heart, we'd arrived at last. September something,
1944.  Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombardier (Carlsbad, 44-8)



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 23:46:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:46:05 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
References: 
Message-ID: <003301c2dc5e$e5e323a0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

CCRC--
Well--our crew flew a plane over, sartiing from Lincoln, NEB  to Goose Bay,
Lab. to Iceland  and entering the UK in Ireland ( I do not recall the base)
then on to
chorley, North  of Birmingham ( it was a base for equiping newly arrived
planes for combat.)
Ours was a new B-17--it sort of had that new car smell!!!!! I think our
assigm=nment orders were cut in Lincoln 'll have to upstairs to the files
and check that if I don't forget why I'm there when I get to the files.
Anyway, we had turkey dinner the nesxt day at Chorley it was Thanksgiving
'45, then the next day they put us on a train  headed south, transferring at
Marketharborough to a train headed for Northhampton.  We had great fun
trying to buy fish and chips and tea with milk at the railway station  and
just holding out a hanf full of british coins  and letting the server pick
uot the correct amount.
We took our combat our training at Molesworths--GEE box, formation flying
and combat crew check out. I think it was Major Kerwin that gave us the
check flight. I'll have to check that with Owen his memory is pretty. Maybe
Molesworth was the 412st Wing training facility
Roger Freeman may have this noted in his book. We were met at the rr station
and taken directly to the 359th on arrival at Molesworth.
-30-
LeRoy Christenson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McClanahan" 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC


> Kevin -
>
> The 11th Combat Crew Replacement Center was in Bovingdon northwest of
> London and a little northeast of VIII Bomber Command HQ at High Wycombe.
> My research tells me that it was a collection and dispersal center for
> new crews arriving in England, sort of like Salt Lake City was in the
> US.  I think that most, if not all, of the replacements for the 8th AF
> went through there on their way to their ultimate assignments.  As Jack
> mentioned, they spent a couple of weeks there getting updated on what
> they would need to know as they entered the European Theater.
>
> Mike McClanahan
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 19:20:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:20:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688002580CE4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list,
Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over the left breast pocket?
Or was this air crews only?

Thanks! 
Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 24 20:39:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:39:37 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
Message-ID: <1e6.2efb7e0.2b8bdd09@aol.com>

spec campen and pilot lonski' dropped off new plane at valley, froze 
overnight by small coke stove and  then direct molesworth and into flights 
promptly. 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 15:31:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:31:17 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
Message-ID: 

>From time to time it was important to set the war aside and
let off some steam.  No doubt this was accomplished at the 303rds
"Hells Angels" bar. Most of us young guys think that the officers
sat around crowed tables playing cards, smoking Lucky Strikes while
drinking some of the local English ale's. Somewhere off in the distance
a piano was being played and men where heard singing "Don't sit under =
the=20
apple tree with anyone else but me" while puffing on there pipes.

Having spoken to some Officers who drank at that bar located at =
Mollesworth
a whole new side has come to light.... Double doors being held open =
during
drinking hours so that a jeep could be drove into the bar area....
gives a whole new meaning to "Pick up window"! Women's footprints found
"walking across the ceiling"... take me to the moon!

The 303rd website has several pictures of the bar, Red Cross =
girls/English
women enjoying a pint or two with the officers..... lots of smiles.

OK guys, no doubt you were instrumental in winning the war in the ETO,
but you were young and doubtful of coming home. Maybe you could share
some of your memories with us about the time you let off some steam?

Greg Pierce
8th AFHS - President WA Chapter


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 16:17:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688002580CE4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030225161751.23426.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Dave, As far as I know only air crew members wore
the wings and they were positioned over the left
breast pocket........Bill Runnels, Bombardier

--- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> Hi list,
> Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over
> the left breast pocket?
> Or was this air crews only?
> 
> Thanks! 
> Dave
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 17:08:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:08:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] One More Thing About Bovingdon
In-Reply-To: <003301c2dc5e$e5e323a0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030225170805.57459.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

I just read that RAF paper drop tanks were modified at
Bovingdon, giving our 47s and 38s a wee bit of extra
range.  This followed the 14 October 1943 Schweinfurt
Raid when it became very apparent long range escorts
were needed to protect on deep penetrations.  Later
when the US started shipping metal tanks, they were
modified at Bovingdon.  Seems like the tanks didn't
work well at first, biggest problem being
pressurization above 23,000 MSL.  Some even fell off
on take-off.  Thank God and Air Materials Command for
getting these tanks on our planes.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 17:16:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:16:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
In-Reply-To: <003301c2dc5e$e5e323a0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030225171626.69660.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Asa M. Duncan, Carl A. "Tooey" Spaatz, Ira C. Eaker, 
"Jimmy" Doolittle or W.E. Kepner, and if so, what did
you think of them?  Were these men larger than life?

Did any of you ever meet Sir Arthur Harris either
before, during or after the war?

We've talked about the Queen, Chruchill and Clark
Gable, did you meet any other famous people during
your tour in the ETO?  

Thanks a bunch for all your comments about CCRCs! 
Very, very interesting!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 22:06:35 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:06:35 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
Message-ID: <1a2.10f88f2a.2b8d42eb@aol.com>

Kevin:
     Did you meet any other famous people during your tour etc?
  No, but before our tour got started, on the way over,. about 10 or 12 of us 
shared a 
former stateroom on one of the upper decks of the Aquatania, an English ocean 
liner, Between our room and the next state room was a latrine (Head) that our 
two rooms shared. In the next room was a group going over for the USO, I 
suppose, Called "Spike Jones and his City Slickers"

     He was tall and skinny. and packed a 45, loaded with blanks, They 
rehearsed daily and nightly. They did a song that started out "In a secluded 
Ron-D-view, having a cigarette for two." I don't remember the next line as I 
don't and didn't smoke. It ended up in gunfire as did our tour so it was good 
training for us. It taught me a valuable lesson. You never would believe who 
you might meet in a head if you don't lock both doors on an English ship.
     Best Wishes,
         Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb 25 22:38:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:38:06 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
Message-ID: <5f.358601ab.2b8d4a4e@aol.com>

Greg Pierce,
     Many compounds exists in 3 states. Solid, liquid and gas. Water is a 
very good example of this as it is found in all 3 states at normal 
temperatures and pressures that occur naturally on the surface of the earth. 
They are called ice, water and humidity.  Steam is an invisible form of water 
in the gaseous state like in Yellowstone park when it is very hot. Some of 
the unlearned people think they see steam when it condenses but the learned 
people tell me what they see is the liquid form in little tiny droplets as it 
condenses into the liquid form like when it came out of a chew-chew train in 
the old days.

     Now to get back to your question. We never saw any one let off steam at 
the 303rd Bar because as great and wonder full as we were Even us could not 
see steam.  Sorry Greg. 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 01:17:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
In-Reply-To: <5f.358601ab.2b8d4a4e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030226011753.25670.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

I saw a great show on the Lusitania, Moritania (sp)
and the Aquatania about a year ago and wish I had
taped it.  These were the posh of the posh ships of
the era and the show mentioned how they each were
built to win the Eurpoe to United States speed record.
 There was a huge trophy passed amongst the winning
ships.  It seems one of the great luxury liners met
its fate in a New York slip when it is believed
saboteurs set it afire.  Was it the Aquatania? Or am I
completely off base?

Spike Jones!  I've heard his songs, Jack!  I've always
been a sucker for any music from 1939 to 1945.  My
favorites - They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White
Cliffs of Dover - this one ALWAYS brings a lump to the
throat), I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo, Elmer's Tune,
Shoo Shoo Baby, and anything by Glenn Miller!
Cheers!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 02:02:35 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:02:35 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
Message-ID: <72.2abe5ded.2b8d7a3b@aol.com>

Kevin,
     There was another one. I'll walk alone but to tell you the truth I'll be 
lonely.  I don't mind being lonely if you're lonely too. I liked the song but 
it seemed a bit selfish to me to want the other one to be just as bad off as 
I was.  

     I don't know what happened to the Aquatania. They said it was so fast no 
Sub in the world could catch it so we went alone.  I thought one could lay in 
wait and get us as we went by. We changed course a bit every few minutes but 
you couldn't tell it if you didn't look back at our wake.  I thought the two 
Queens, The Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were bigger. I don't know if they 
were faster or not. As I remember there was about 16000 of us on it.  The 
English crew feed us around the clock. We got two meals per day. The chow was 
amazingly good I thought.  They baked peeled potatoes with something like 
bacon grease on them. They had them every day. I wish I had their recipe. I 
thought they were particularly good. Ramble-Ramble. shame on me. Sorry.
           Jack 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 03:00:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:00:14 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
In-Reply-To: <72.2abe5ded.2b8d7a3b@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Hi guys...here's one for you.  I shipped back to the states on the USS
Wakefield, which was the former Cunard luxury liner Manhattan.  It wasn't
really that bad, but when we docked at Hampton Roads, VA, guess how they
welcomed us.  Suddenly the sky was filled with FLAK....now tell me, was that
not a stupid way to welcome  home a bunch of flak-happy warriors?  Of
course, at the other end of the gangplank was a mess hall where everyone got
a steak done to order and a giant bottle of real, fresh, tasty, cows milk.
One night during the voyage I sneaked past the warning signs and made my way
to the very bow of the vessel and like the movie stood with the incredible
nighttime wind communing with the spirits when I felt a firm hand on my
shoulder and turned to see a star on a sleeve....sho nuff, t'was a General
of sorts who advised that I'd best get back in the safety zone.  On another
romp around the deck, my good friend a guy nemed Kelley from Chicago lost
his treasured 50-mission-crush cap to a blast of wind off the bridge.  Bad
show....the lad fairly broke down.  Great memories that come back time and
again..   Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 04:29:16 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:29:16 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Officers Club
Message-ID: <003b01c2dd4f$9fbfd7a0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greg:
>From my recollection, crew members on combat flying status  did not have =
a great deal of time to spend at the officers club. after a mission I =
was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not much into =
drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men in our =
nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
mess hall, cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration =
chocolate bars melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices =
on the pot bellied stove ,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of =
hot chocolate soon found us calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.
OH, there were occasions when special entertainment was being presented =
and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile. Didn't see much pipe =
smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various songs. My =
recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
ground duty responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to =
get flight pay and those who had completed a first tour and now had more =
administrative duty.=20
It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45 that there wasmore time to visit =
the club, I found myself dring some mmild or bitrers with Majors and Lt. =
Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have more recollections of =
sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking tea and/or coffee and =
playing a lot of gin rummy
So from what you write I may have missed something but I don't think any =
of it would have made my day.
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator 359th




------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Greg:


From my recollection, crew members on =
combat flying=20
status  did not have a great deal of time to spend at the officers =
club.=20
after a mission I was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not =
much=20
into drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men =
in our=20
nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
mess hall,=20
cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration chocolate =
bars=20
melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices on the pot =
bellied stove=20
,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of hot chocolate soon =
found us=20
calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.


OH, there were occasions when special =
entertainment=20
was being presented and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile. =
Didn't=20
see much pipe smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various =
songs. My=20
recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
ground duty=20
responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to get flight =
pay and=20
those who had completed a first tour and now had more administrative =
duty.=20



It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45 =
that there=20
wasmore time to visit the club, I found myself dring some mmild or =
bitrers with=20
Majors and Lt. Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have=20
more recollections of sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking =
tea=20
and/or coffee and playing a lot of gin rummy


So from what you write I may have =
missed something=20
but I don't think any of it would have made my day.


LeRoy Christenson


Navigator 359th


 


 


 


 


------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 13:34:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:34:26 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #857 - 12 msgs
References: <20030226070534.4CB635370F@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <000701c2dd9b$c9020f60$0000a398@SHANK>

To Jack - The name of the song done by Spike Jones involving gunfire was
"Cocktails for Two".  Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 2:05 AM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #857 - 12 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Uniform question (Tooley, Dave)
>    2. Re: RE: CCRC (IBSPEC@aol.com)
>    3. Hells Angels Bar stories (Pierce, Gregory S)
>    4. Re: Uniform question (bill runnels)
>    5. Re: One More Thing About Bovingdon (Kevin Pearson)
>    6. Re: Did any of you ever meet (Kevin Pearson)
>    7. Re: Did any of you ever meet (Jprencher@aol.com)
>    8. Re: Hells Angels Bar stories (Jprencher@aol.com)
>    9. Re: Aquatania (Kevin Pearson)
>   10. Re: Aquatania (Jprencher@aol.com)
>   11. Re: Aquatania (Bob Hand)
>   12. Molesworth Officers Club (Leroy Audrey)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> To: "303rd Email List (E-mail)" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:20:37 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Hi list,
> Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over the left breast pocket?
> Or was this air crews only?
>
> Thanks!
> Dave
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: IBSPEC@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:39:37 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> spec campen and pilot lonski' dropped off new plane at valley, froze
> overnight by small coke stove and  then direct molesworth and into flights
> promptly.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:31:17 -0800
> From: "Pierce, Gregory S" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> From time to time it was important to set the war aside and
> let off some steam.  No doubt this was accomplished at the 303rds
> "Hells Angels" bar. Most of us young guys think that the officers
> sat around crowed tables playing cards, smoking Lucky Strikes while
> drinking some of the local English ale's. Somewhere off in the distance
> a piano was being played and men where heard singing "Don't sit under =
> the=20
> apple tree with anyone else but me" while puffing on there pipes.
>
> Having spoken to some Officers who drank at that bar located at =
> Mollesworth
> a whole new side has come to light.... Double doors being held open =
> during
> drinking hours so that a jeep could be drove into the bar area....
> gives a whole new meaning to "Pick up window"! Women's footprints found
> "walking across the ceiling"... take me to the moon!
>
> The 303rd website has several pictures of the bar, Red Cross =
> girls/English
> women enjoying a pint or two with the officers..... lots of smiles.
>
> OK guys, no doubt you were instrumental in winning the war in the ETO,
> but you were young and doubtful of coming home. Maybe you could share
> some of your memories with us about the time you let off some steam?
>
> Greg Pierce
> 8th AFHS - President WA Chapter
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:17:51 -0800 (PST)
> From: bill runnels 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Hi Dave, As far as I know only air crew members wore
> the wings and they were positioned over the left
> breast pocket........Bill Runnels, Bombardier
>
> --- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> > Hi list,
> > Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over
> > the left breast pocket?
> > Or was this air crews only?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:08:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] One More Thing About Bovingdon
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I just read that RAF paper drop tanks were modified at
> Bovingdon, giving our 47s and 38s a wee bit of extra
> range.  This followed the 14 October 1943 Schweinfurt
> Raid when it became very apparent long range escorts
> were needed to protect on deep penetrations.  Later
> when the US started shipping metal tanks, they were
> modified at Bovingdon.  Seems like the tanks didn't
> work well at first, biggest problem being
> pressurization above 23,000 MSL.  Some even fell off
> on take-off.  Thank God and Air Materials Command for
> getting these tanks on our planes.
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:16:26 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Asa M. Duncan, Carl A. "Tooey" Spaatz, Ira C. Eaker,
> "Jimmy" Doolittle or W.E. Kepner, and if so, what did
> you think of them?  Were these men larger than life?
>
> Did any of you ever meet Sir Arthur Harris either
> before, during or after the war?
>
> We've talked about the Queen, Chruchill and Clark
> Gable, did you meet any other famous people during
> your tour in the ETO?
>
> Thanks a bunch for all your comments about CCRCs!
> Very, very interesting!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:06:35 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Kevin:
>      Did you meet any other famous people during your tour etc?
>   No, but before our tour got started, on the way over,. about 10 or 12 of
us
> shared a
> former stateroom on one of the upper decks of the Aquatania, an English
ocean
> liner, Between our room and the next state room was a latrine (Head) that
our
> two rooms shared. In the next room was a group going over for the USO, I
> suppose, Called "Spike Jones and his City Slickers"
>
>      He was tall and skinny. and packed a 45, loaded with blanks, They
> rehearsed daily and nightly. They did a song that started out "In a
secluded
> Ron-D-view, having a cigarette for two." I don't remember the next line as
I
> don't and didn't smoke. It ended up in gunfire as did our tour so it was
good
> training for us. It taught me a valuable lesson. You never would believe
who
> you might meet in a head if you don't lock both doors on an English ship.
>      Best Wishes,
>          Jack
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:38:06 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Greg Pierce,
>      Many compounds exists in 3 states. Solid, liquid and gas. Water is a
> very good example of this as it is found in all 3 states at normal
> temperatures and pressures that occur naturally on the surface of the
earth.
> They are called ice, water and humidity.  Steam is an invisible form of
water
> in the gaseous state like in Yellowstone park when it is very hot. Some of
> the unlearned people think they see steam when it condenses but the
learned
> people tell me what they see is the liquid form in little tiny droplets as
it
> condenses into the liquid form like when it came out of a chew-chew train
in
> the old days.
>
>      Now to get back to your question. We never saw any one let off steam
at
> the 303rd Bar because as great and wonder full as we were Even us could
not
> see steam.  Sorry Greg.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:17:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I saw a great show on the Lusitania, Moritania (sp)
> and the Aquatania about a year ago and wish I had
> taped it.  These were the posh of the posh ships of
> the era and the show mentioned how they each were
> built to win the Eurpoe to United States speed record.
>  There was a huge trophy passed amongst the winning
> ships.  It seems one of the great luxury liners met
> its fate in a New York slip when it is believed
> saboteurs set it afire.  Was it the Aquatania? Or am I
> completely off base?
>
> Spike Jones!  I've heard his songs, Jack!  I've always
> been a sucker for any music from 1939 to 1945.  My
> favorites - They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White
> Cliffs of Dover - this one ALWAYS brings a lump to the
> throat), I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo, Elmer's Tune,
> Shoo Shoo Baby, and anything by Glenn Miller!
> Cheers!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:02:35 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Kevin,
>      There was another one. I'll walk alone but to tell you the truth I'll
be
> lonely.  I don't mind being lonely if you're lonely too. I liked the song
but
> it seemed a bit selfish to me to want the other one to be just as bad off
as
> I was.
>
>      I don't know what happened to the Aquatania. They said it was so fast
no
> Sub in the world could catch it so we went alone.  I thought one could lay
in
> wait and get us as we went by. We changed course a bit every few minutes
but
> you couldn't tell it if you didn't look back at our wake.  I thought the
two
> Queens, The Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were bigger. I don't know if
they
> were faster or not. As I remember there was about 16000 of us on it.  The
> English crew feed us around the clock. We got two meals per day. The chow
was
> amazingly good I thought.  They baked peeled potatoes with something like
> bacon grease on them. They had them every day. I wish I had their recipe.
I
> thought they were particularly good. Ramble-Ramble. shame on me. Sorry.
>            Jack
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:00:14 -0500
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> From: Bob Hand 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Hi guys...here's one for you.  I shipped back to the states on the USS
> Wakefield, which was the former Cunard luxury liner Manhattan.  It wasn't
> really that bad, but when we docked at Hampton Roads, VA, guess how they
> welcomed us.  Suddenly the sky was filled with FLAK....now tell me, was
that
> not a stupid way to welcome  home a bunch of flak-happy warriors?  Of
> course, at the other end of the gangplank was a mess hall where everyone
got
> a steak done to order and a giant bottle of real, fresh, tasty, cows milk.
> One night during the voyage I sneaked past the warning signs and made my
way
> to the very bow of the vessel and like the movie stood with the incredible
> nighttime wind communing with the spirits when I felt a firm hand on my
> shoulder and turned to see a star on a sleeve....sho nuff, t'was a General
> of sorts who advised that I'd best get back in the safety zone.  On
another
> romp around the deck, my good friend a guy nemed Kelley from Chicago lost
> his treasured 50-mission-crush cap to a blast of wind off the bridge.  Bad
> show....the lad fairly broke down.  Great memories that come back time and
> again..   Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:29:16 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Officers Club
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Greg:
> From my recollection, crew members on combat flying status  did not have =
> a great deal of time to spend at the officers club. after a mission I =
> was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not much into =
> drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men in our =
> nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
> mess hall, cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration =
> chocolate bars melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices =
> on the pot bellied stove ,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of =
> hot chocolate soon found us calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.
> OH, there were occasions when special entertainment was being presented =
> and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile. Didn't see much pipe =
> smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various songs. My =
> recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
> ground duty responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to =
> get flight pay and those who had completed a first tour and now had more =
> administrative duty.=20
> It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45 that there wasmore time to visit =
> the club, I found myself dring some mmild or bitrers with Majors and Lt. =
> Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have more recollections of =
> sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking tea and/or coffee and =
> playing a lot of gin rummy
> So from what you write I may have missed something but I don't think any =
> of it would have made my day.
> LeRoy Christenson
> Navigator 359th
>
>
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> 
> 
>  charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Greg:

> 
From my recollection, crew members on =
> combat flying=20
> status  did not have a great deal of time to spend at the officers =
> club.=20
> after a mission I was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not =
> much=20
> into drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men =
> in our=20
> nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
> mess hall,=20
> cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration chocolate =
> bars=20
> melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices on the pot =
> bellied stove=20
> ,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of hot chocolate soon =
> found us=20
> calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.

> 
OH, there were occasions when special =
> entertainment=20
> was being presented and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile. =
> Didn't=20
> see much pipe smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various =
> songs. My=20
> recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
> ground duty=20
> responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to get flight =
> pay and=20
> those who had completed a first tour and now had more administrative =
> duty.=20
> 

> 
It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45 =
> that there=20
> wasmore time to visit the club, I found myself dring some mmild or =
> bitrers with=20
> Majors and Lt. Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have=20
> more recollections of sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking =
> tea=20
> and/or coffee and playing a lot of gin rummy

> 
So from what you write I may have =
> missed something=20
> but I don't think any of it would have made my day.

> 
LeRoy Christenson

> 
Navigator 359th

> 
 

> 
 

> 
 

> 
 

>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420--
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 14:31:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:31:51 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On arrival to Molesworth, our crew was given the option of "continual alert"
for missions or spacing them out, and our eagerness (unbelievable!!) dictated
that we should choose the former.  Thus we were on a more or less constant
"alert" and spent little time goofing around the Hell's Angels Bar till all
hours.  I had darn few drinks there and recall the atmosphere as orderly and
good natured.  Looking back, I don't ever recall the mention of hard drugs or
marijuana...we all welcomed that "boost" after interrogation and maybe another
after supper, but that was it.  The gross-est bar behavior I ever witnessed was
in a ramshackle joint in Rio Ruidoso, NM where an MP came into the bar on
horseback, but then that was VJ day, you know. And in shirtsleeves, yet.  The
infrequent dances I went to were 20 to 1 in favor of the ladies who were whisked
back to town too early.  But there was plenty of activity back at the barracks
and the general feeling was positive and energized.  Or us this confusing? One
more item, which I can't verify as gospel, but it was said that our theater was
the only one around with  regular seats instead of those hard benches, courtesy
of Clark Gable....anybody back me up?
Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 16:14:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:14:21 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Officers' Club
Message-ID: <15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd@aol.com>

--part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I guess I was an exception to Jack, I spent a lot of evenings at the club 
having a few Half & Halfs. We sometimes went to Lillford Hall where the beer 
was colder and 6 pence cheaper and there were girls there too. Back at the 
427th & 358th Officers' Club, there was a pipe smoking major that could hang 
from the rafters upside down, smoke his pipe and drink a beer. I don't think 
he was on a combat crew. Jack, not all of us were as dedicated as you.
Bill D.

--part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I guess I was an exception to Jack, I spent a lot o=
f evenings at the club having a few Half & Halfs. We sometimes went to L=
illford Hall where the beer was colder and 6 pence cheaper and there were gi=
rls there too. Back at the 427th & 358th Officers' Club, there was a pip=
e smoking major that could hang from the rafters upside down, smoke his pipe=
 and drink a beer. I don't think he was on a combat crew. Jack, not all of u=
s were as dedicated as you.

Bill D.

--part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 17:02:33 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:02:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cocktails for Two by Spike Jones
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030226170233.62903.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Cocktails For Two
Spike Jones

In some secluded rendezvous,
That overlooks the avenue,
With someone sharing a delightful chat,
Of this and that,
And cocktails for two.

As we enjoy a cigarette,
To some exqiuisite chansonette,
Two hands are sure to slyly meet beneath a serviette,
With cocktails for two.

My head may go reeling,
But my heart will be o-be-di-ent,
With in-tox-i-cat-ing kisses,
For the principal in-gre-di-ent,

Most any afternoon at five,
We'll be so glad we're both alive,
Then maybe fortune will complete her plan,
That all began
with cocktails for two


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 17:05:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030226170506.54103.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains
airfield architecture, especially the identification
of the various buildings?  I have hundreds of photos
from the old bases, and would like to learn more about
what these old buildings were.  Some buildings are
tall and square (parachute building or gunnery
training) and are long and narrow.

Any help appreciated!  Thanks!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 17:08:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:08:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Completed Mission Ritual
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030226170846.60875.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

I was again reading Bob Hands outstanding book "Last
Raid" (shameless plug for a great, great book with
even better illustrations).  Bob shows a few pictures
of his crew after finishing their missions, and they
had painted in red paint on the seat of their pants
the number of missions completed.  Anyone know about
the origin of this custom?  Was it confined to Bob's
Squadron or was it a Group-wide practice?  I've never
heard of this before.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 18:06:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:06:57 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd talk
Message-ID: 

My name is George Grubaugh. I'm the son of Franklin Grubaugh (deceased). I 
believe he was a tail gunner on the Pistol Packin Mama when it was shot down. 
He survived, was captured by Tito's men? My understanding is that they were 
shot down over Italy, not Germany. I'll post accurate info after I check our 
family archives. Great site, thanks for taking the time. 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb 26 18:51:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:51:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spike Jones
Message-ID: <002e01c2ddc8$235b9f40$460c6ed8@webshark.com>

 In the next room was a group going over for the USO, I
suppose, Called "Spike Jones and his City Slickers"

     He was tall and skinny. and packed a 45, loaded with blanks, They
rehearsed daily and nightly. They did a song that started out "In a secluded
Ron-D-view, having a cigarette for two."



"Cocktails for two" was the song! Spike Jones is still popular.........




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 02:07:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:07:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Blue Star Banner
Message-ID: <000701c2de05$0e4e2400$7abb9ace@mjpmtman>

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH - from the Nebraska Legion Magazine 
for March  2003- it may be pertinent and it may not.

The Blue Star Banner was originally designed and patented in 1917 
by World War Capt  Robert L Quesssner of the 5th Ohio  Infantry.. 
The American Legion rejuvenated the Blue Star Banner program 
following the Seprember 11 attack.

The Blue Star Banners, Gold Star Banners, Corparate Star Banners 
as well as Blue Star Posters, decals & lapel pins are available from 
the Legion's Emblem Sales division

MAURICE J. PAULK


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 02:14:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:14:27 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
References: <20030225171626.69660.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003901c2de05$f4504820$6401a8c0@desktop1>

 I recall my father describing the initial "roundups" of folks to go see
some of the entertainment, eg Bob Hope (?) etc. I take it from his narrative
that not every one on base was equally eager to meet and greet the
celebrities that passed though. I got the sense that a few (Gable, Cronkite)
may have earned enough respect with the guys to have some common ground but
they were exceptions. Of course he was sympathetic to the CO's wishes not to
offend the Queen during her visit-  but my dad, contrary as ever, avoided
the rest if at all possible.

Understand, originally, all of this was usually expressed in far more
colorful language than this mailing list could...or would ... endorse, from
a man born before being politically correct meant anything at all.

Bill





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 03:00:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:00:21 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters
References: 
Message-ID: <004f01c2de0c$5e568ee0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Thanks , Jack I hope if you ever got a direction change like that from a
navigator, you'd just shake your head and turn to 30 degrees  and let the
navigator catch up on the plot of his position and you turn on the radio
compass and listen to music and get a little direction form that.
LeRoy
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters


> Leroy,
>      Thanks for putting in your 2 pennies worth.  You hit the pilots right
on
> the head with your character analysis.  They were lucky to have a
navigator
> like you. I would feel blessed to have you on our crew where I could say
> "Roger" rather than "What do you mean I THINK we should turn to ABOUT 390
> degrees"??
>      Very Best Wishes
>           Jack
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 05:09:12 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:09:12 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters& Navigators
Message-ID: <1ef.3122afb.2b8ef778@aol.com>

Le Roy,
         Thanks for your note with the excellent advice therein.  I'll admit 
I wasn't to shabby with a Radio Compass even thought I didn't listen to music 
much. Now I'm going to tell you why I became a Navigator.
      Pilot to Navigator: Gus (Not his real name) We've just lost two engines 
and can't stay with the formation. Where are we? Navigator to pilot: Just a 
minute. 15 minutes later "Gus where are we, I don't want to fly over 600 
guns," Well I'm not sure but I think we are east of the Rhine. He had one 
other location he used about half of the time. " I think we are west of the 
Rhine." He was right 50% of the time. Would you believe they made him a 
deputy lead Navigator until I went over and talked to them?  Hang in there 
LeRoy.
         Best Wishes,
                Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 07:00:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 02:00:04 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Flight deck duties
Message-ID: <18c.165bc7ca.2b8f1174@aol.com>

Mike McClanahan:
     Mike , in going through my old mail I found some questions from you I 
failed to answer. Crews were different so I can only answer on the crews I 
flew on as copilot and pilot. When it was the copilots turn to fly the roles 
were reversed. If we got into heavy fighters I usually wanted to do the 
flying, if the other pilot was new. If he was sharp it just depended on whose 
turn it was.  When we got into heavy flak like on the bomb run I wanted the 
other pilot to fly so I could watch the flak and dodge it often times. I 
couldn't watch the flak and fly formation at the same time. If the first 
pilot had complete confidence in his "right seater'  he might very well want 
him to fly through the drop zone, especially if they were on the leads left 
wing. Turning into the bomb run was no tougher than any other turn You need 
to realize that on a good crew the pilot and copilot worked together like one 
person with 4 arms, 4 feet and 4 eyes. They both knew what needed to done, 
why and when. After they got to work together and knew each other they could 
fly a whole mission and never speak to each other. except something like 
"That guy "Gobrecht", on Lynch's right wing is one damn sharp pilot. Which 
hut does he live in?  If someone "broke" the plane the pilot didn't get stuck 
with the check no matter who was flying. It was battle damage. We weren't 
taking girls out for fish and chips. 
     Best Wishes,
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 11:38:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:38:28 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #858 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: <12c.2442f0a2.2b8f52b4@aol.com>

--part1_12c.2442f0a2.2b8f52b4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In reply to Greig Perce "letting off steam".  I was on a combat crew and only 
had 1 leave. We spent the time in London.  Walking at night round London was 
quite an experience. The men would walk in one direction and the women (?) in 
another direction so they could bump into the men. It was pitch black due to 
the war. One lady? bumped into me, hand on my shoulder and then down my 
sleeve. She gave me a price and said "giver a go Yank? I replyed, I came here 
to save your a.. not buy it. Got a good slap on the face for that.   

--part1_12c.2442f0a2.2b8f52b4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In reply to Greig Perce "letting off steam". =20=
I was on a combat crew and only had 1 leave. We spent the time in London.&nb=
sp; Walking at night round London was quite an experience. The men would wal=
k in one direction and the women (?) in another direction so they could bump=
 into the men. It was pitch black due to the war. One lady? bumped into me,=20=
hand on my shoulder and then down my sleeve. She gave me a price and said "g=
iver a go Yank? I replyed, I came here to save your a.. not buy it. Got a go=
od slap on the face for that.   

--part1_12c.2442f0a2.2b8f52b4_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 16:30:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:30:06 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
In-Reply-To: <20030226011753.25670.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> The liner "Morrow Castle" burned off the coast of New Jersey, but I don't
think it was espionage...seems to be another one burned but memory fails me.
Music of the 40's comes back to haunt with memories...I really enjoyed "Opus
No.l", T. Dorsey's  stuff like "Fingerbustin'" and Stan Kenton's "Peanut Vendor"
If you could sit still for that last one, you dead, man!  There was a neat
little one sung by a sweet gal called "Silver Wings in the Moonlight" and a
tongue-in-cheek ditty called "Johnny Got a Zero" (he zeroed everything in school
but somehow got through pilot training and was banging Jap zeros by the score.)
Lyrics on request.  Has anyone out there heard of "Love Song of the Logger"?
Cheers,  Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 20:20:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:20:38 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #858 - 12 msgs
References: <20030227070408.73161535B9@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c2de9d$b2d39e40$0000a398@SHANK>

A couple of responses to remarks made: To Kevin - The luxury liner that
burned up in New York was the Normandie.   To Bob Hand - the story I heard
about the movie theater at Molesworth was that Spyros Skouros, a movie mogul
at the time, was responsible for having it built.  Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:04 AM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #858 - 12 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #857 - 12 msgs (Rose & Herb Shanker)
>    2. Re: Hells Angels Bar stories (Bob Hand)
>    3. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Officers' Club (Wmjdallas@aol.com)
>    4. Re: Cocktails for Two by Spike Jones (Kevin Pearson)
>    5. Re: Airfield Architecture (Kevin Pearson)
>    6. Re: Completed Mission Ritual (Kevin Pearson)
>    7. 303rd talk (Ggrewbah@aol.com)
>    8. Spike Jones (Tom Beard)
>    9. The Blue Star Banner (Maurice Paulk)
>   10. Re: Did any of you ever meet (Bill Conklin)
>   11. Re: co-pilots and pilots characters (Leroy Audrey)
>   12. Re: co-pilots and pilots characters& Navigators (Jprencher@aol.com)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Rose & Herb Shanker" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:34:26 -0500
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #857 - 12 msgs
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To Jack - The name of the song done by Spike Jones involving gunfire was
> "Cocktails for Two".  Herb Shanker
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 2:05 AM
> Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #857 - 12 msgs
>
>
> > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Uniform question (Tooley, Dave)
> >    2. Re: RE: CCRC (IBSPEC@aol.com)
> >    3. Hells Angels Bar stories (Pierce, Gregory S)
> >    4. Re: Uniform question (bill runnels)
> >    5. Re: One More Thing About Bovingdon (Kevin Pearson)
> >    6. Re: Did any of you ever meet (Kevin Pearson)
> >    7. Re: Did any of you ever meet (Jprencher@aol.com)
> >    8. Re: Hells Angels Bar stories (Jprencher@aol.com)
> >    9. Re: Aquatania (Kevin Pearson)
> >   10. Re: Aquatania (Jprencher@aol.com)
> >   11. Re: Aquatania (Bob Hand)
> >   12. Molesworth Officers Club (Leroy Audrey)
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> > To: "303rd Email List (E-mail)" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:20:37 -0600
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Hi list,
> > Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over the left breast
pocket?
> > Or was this air crews only?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 2
> > From: IBSPEC@aol.com
> > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:39:37 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: CCRC
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > spec campen and pilot lonski' dropped off new plane at valley, froze
> > overnight by small coke stove and  then direct molesworth and into
flights
> > promptly.
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:31:17 -0800
> > From: "Pierce, Gregory S" 
> > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > From time to time it was important to set the war aside and
> > let off some steam.  No doubt this was accomplished at the 303rds
> > "Hells Angels" bar. Most of us young guys think that the officers
> > sat around crowed tables playing cards, smoking Lucky Strikes while
> > drinking some of the local English ale's. Somewhere off in the distance
> > a piano was being played and men where heard singing "Don't sit under =
> > the=20
> > apple tree with anyone else but me" while puffing on there pipes.
> >
> > Having spoken to some Officers who drank at that bar located at =
> > Mollesworth
> > a whole new side has come to light.... Double doors being held open =
> > during
> > drinking hours so that a jeep could be drove into the bar area....
> > gives a whole new meaning to "Pick up window"! Women's footprints found
> > "walking across the ceiling"... take me to the moon!
> >
> > The 303rd website has several pictures of the bar, Red Cross =
> > girls/English
> > women enjoying a pint or two with the officers..... lots of smiles.
> >
> > OK guys, no doubt you were instrumental in winning the war in the ETO,
> > but you were young and doubtful of coming home. Maybe you could share
> > some of your memories with us about the time you let off some steam?
> >
> > Greg Pierce
> > 8th AFHS - President WA Chapter
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:17:51 -0800 (PST)
> > From: bill runnels 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Uniform question
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Hi Dave, As far as I know only air crew members wore
> > the wings and they were positioned over the left
> > breast pocket........Bill Runnels, Bombardier
> >
> > --- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> > > Hi list,
> > > Did everyone in the AAC wear the wings patch over
> > > the left breast pocket?
> > > Or was this air crews only?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:08:05 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] One More Thing About Bovingdon
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > I just read that RAF paper drop tanks were modified at
> > Bovingdon, giving our 47s and 38s a wee bit of extra
> > range.  This followed the 14 October 1943 Schweinfurt
> > Raid when it became very apparent long range escorts
> > were needed to protect on deep penetrations.  Later
> > when the US started shipping metal tanks, they were
> > modified at Bovingdon.  Seems like the tanks didn't
> > work well at first, biggest problem being
> > pressurization above 23,000 MSL.  Some even fell off
> > on take-off.  Thank God and Air Materials Command for
> > getting these tanks on our planes.
> > Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:16:26 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Asa M. Duncan, Carl A. "Tooey" Spaatz, Ira C. Eaker,
> > "Jimmy" Doolittle or W.E. Kepner, and if so, what did
> > you think of them?  Were these men larger than life?
> >
> > Did any of you ever meet Sir Arthur Harris either
> > before, during or after the war?
> >
> > We've talked about the Queen, Chruchill and Clark
> > Gable, did you meet any other famous people during
> > your tour in the ETO?
> >
> > Thanks a bunch for all your comments about CCRCs!
> > Very, very interesting!
> > Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 7
> > From: Jprencher@aol.com
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:06:35 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Kevin:
> >      Did you meet any other famous people during your tour etc?
> >   No, but before our tour got started, on the way over,. about 10 or 12
of
> us
> > shared a
> > former stateroom on one of the upper decks of the Aquatania, an English
> ocean
> > liner, Between our room and the next state room was a latrine (Head)
that
> our
> > two rooms shared. In the next room was a group going over for the USO, I
> > suppose, Called "Spike Jones and his City Slickers"
> >
> >      He was tall and skinny. and packed a 45, loaded with blanks, They
> > rehearsed daily and nightly. They did a song that started out "In a
> secluded
> > Ron-D-view, having a cigarette for two." I don't remember the next line
as
> I
> > don't and didn't smoke. It ended up in gunfire as did our tour so it was
> good
> > training for us. It taught me a valuable lesson. You never would believe
> who
> > you might meet in a head if you don't lock both doors on an English
ship.
> >      Best Wishes,
> >          Jack
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 8
> > From: Jprencher@aol.com
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:38:06 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Greg Pierce,
> >      Many compounds exists in 3 states. Solid, liquid and gas. Water is
a
> > very good example of this as it is found in all 3 states at normal
> > temperatures and pressures that occur naturally on the surface of the
> earth.
> > They are called ice, water and humidity.  Steam is an invisible form of
> water
> > in the gaseous state like in Yellowstone park when it is very hot. Some
of
> > the unlearned people think they see steam when it condenses but the
> learned
> > people tell me what they see is the liquid form in little tiny droplets
as
> it
> > condenses into the liquid form like when it came out of a chew-chew
train
> in
> > the old days.
> >
> >      Now to get back to your question. We never saw any one let off
steam
> at
> > the 303rd Bar because as great and wonder full as we were Even us could
> not
> > see steam.  Sorry Greg.
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:17:53 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > I saw a great show on the Lusitania, Moritania (sp)
> > and the Aquatania about a year ago and wish I had
> > taped it.  These were the posh of the posh ships of
> > the era and the show mentioned how they each were
> > built to win the Eurpoe to United States speed record.
> >  There was a huge trophy passed amongst the winning
> > ships.  It seems one of the great luxury liners met
> > its fate in a New York slip when it is believed
> > saboteurs set it afire.  Was it the Aquatania? Or am I
> > completely off base?
> >
> > Spike Jones!  I've heard his songs, Jack!  I've always
> > been a sucker for any music from 1939 to 1945.  My
> > favorites - They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White
> > Cliffs of Dover - this one ALWAYS brings a lump to the
> > throat), I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo, Elmer's Tune,
> > Shoo Shoo Baby, and anything by Glenn Miller!
> > Cheers!
> > Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 10
> > From: Jprencher@aol.com
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:02:35 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Kevin,
> >      There was another one. I'll walk alone but to tell you the truth
I'll
> be
> > lonely.  I don't mind being lonely if you're lonely too. I liked the
song
> but
> > it seemed a bit selfish to me to want the other one to be just as bad
off
> as
> > I was.
> >
> >      I don't know what happened to the Aquatania. They said it was so
fast
> no
> > Sub in the world could catch it so we went alone.  I thought one could
lay
> in
> > wait and get us as we went by. We changed course a bit every few minutes
> but
> > you couldn't tell it if you didn't look back at our wake.  I thought the
> two
> > Queens, The Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were bigger. I don't know if
> they
> > were faster or not. As I remember there was about 16000 of us on it.
The
> > English crew feed us around the clock. We got two meals per day. The
chow
> was
> > amazingly good I thought.  They baked peeled potatoes with something
like
> > bacon grease on them. They had them every day. I wish I had their
recipe.
> I
> > thought they were particularly good. Ramble-Ramble. shame on me. Sorry.
> >            Jack
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:00:14 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aquatania
> > From: Bob Hand 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Hi guys...here's one for you.  I shipped back to the states on the USS
> > Wakefield, which was the former Cunard luxury liner Manhattan.  It
wasn't
> > really that bad, but when we docked at Hampton Roads, VA, guess how they
> > welcomed us.  Suddenly the sky was filled with FLAK....now tell me, was
> that
> > not a stupid way to welcome  home a bunch of flak-happy warriors?  Of
> > course, at the other end of the gangplank was a mess hall where everyone
> got
> > a steak done to order and a giant bottle of real, fresh, tasty, cows
milk.
> > One night during the voyage I sneaked past the warning signs and made my
> way
> > to the very bow of the vessel and like the movie stood with the
incredible
> > nighttime wind communing with the spirits when I felt a firm hand on my
> > shoulder and turned to see a star on a sleeve....sho nuff, t'was a
General
> > of sorts who advised that I'd best get back in the safety zone.  On
> another
> > romp around the deck, my good friend a guy nemed Kelley from Chicago
lost
> > his treasured 50-mission-crush cap to a blast of wind off the bridge.
Bad
> > show....the lad fairly broke down.  Great memories that come back time
and
> > again..   Cheers, Bob Hand
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 12
> > From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:29:16 -0600
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Officers Club
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > Greg:
> > From my recollection, crew members on combat flying status  did not have
=
> > a great deal of time to spend at the officers club. after a mission I =
> > was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not much into =
> > drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men in our
=
> > nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
> > mess hall, cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration
=
> > chocolate bars melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices =
> > on the pot bellied stove ,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of
=
> > hot chocolate soon found us calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.
> > OH, there were occasions when special entertainment was being presented
=
> > and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile. Didn't see much pipe
=
> > smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various songs. My =
> > recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
> > ground duty responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to
=
> > get flight pay and those who had completed a first tour and now had more
=
> > administrative duty.=20
> > It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45 that there wasmore time to visit
=
> > the club, I found myself dring some mmild or bitrers with Majors and Lt.
=
> > Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have more recollections of
=
> > sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking tea and/or coffee and =
> > playing a lot of gin rummy
> > So from what you write I may have missed something but I don't think any
=
> > of it would have made my day.
> > LeRoy Christenson
> > Navigator 359th
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420
> > Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  > charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
Greg:

> > 
From my recollection, crew members on =
> > combat flying=20
> > status  did not have a great deal of time to spend at the officers
=
> > club.=20
> > after a mission I was too tired to drag my body over there and I was not
=
> > much=20
> > into drinking. 3am came mighty early in anyone's day.. Most of the men =
> > in our=20
> > nissen hut stayed pretty much there, we had loaves of bread from the =
> > mess hall,=20
> > cans of marmalade, sometimes cans butter spread and K ration chocolate =
> > bars=20
> > melted down in hot powdered milk. Toasting bread slices on the pot =
> > bellied stove=20
> > ,slathered with marmalade and a canteen cup of hot chocolate soon =
> > found us=20
> > calm, comfy and content to hit the sack.

> > 
OH, there were occasions when special =
> > entertainment=20
> > was being presented and we managed to we managed to drop in for awhile.
=
> > Didn't=20
> > see much pipe smoking around the piano, cigs yes and singing various =
> > songs. My=20
> > recognition of people there were mostly of those had a great deal of =
> > ground duty=20
> > responsiblility and flew there required hours each month to get flight =
> > pay and=20
> > those who had completed a first tour and now had more administrative =
> > duty.=20
> > 

> > 
It wss afer the last mission in Apr. 45
=
> > that there=20
> > wasmore time to visit the club, I found myself dring some mmild or =
> > bitrers with=20
> > Majors and Lt. Col.'s I didn't know were on the base. But I have=20
> > more recollections of sitting around at the Red Cross club drinking
=
> > tea=20
> > and/or coffee and playing a lot of gin rummy

> > 
So from what you write I may have =
> > missed something=20
> > but I don't think any of it would have made my day.

> > 
LeRoy Christenson

> > 
Navigator 359th

> > 
 

> > 
 

> > 
 

> > 
 

> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C2DD1D.54E24420--
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > 303rd-Talk mailing list
> > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> >
> >
> > End of 303rd-Talk Digest
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:31:51 -0500
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Bar stories
> From: Bob Hand 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> >On arrival to Molesworth, our crew was given the option of "continual
alert"
> for missions or spacing them out, and our eagerness (unbelievable!!)
dictated
> that we should choose the former.  Thus we were on a more or less constant
> "alert" and spent little time goofing around the Hell's Angels Bar till
all
> hours.  I had darn few drinks there and recall the atmosphere as orderly
and
> good natured.  Looking back, I don't ever recall the mention of hard drugs
or
> marijuana...we all welcomed that "boost" after interrogation and maybe
another
> after supper, but that was it.  The gross-est bar behavior I ever
witnessed was
> in a ramshackle joint in Rio Ruidoso, NM where an MP came into the bar on
> horseback, but then that was VJ day, you know. And in shirtsleeves, yet.
The
> infrequent dances I went to were 20 to 1 in favor of the ladies who were
whisked
> back to town too early.  But there was plenty of activity back at the
barracks
> and the general feeling was positive and energized.  Or us this confusing?
One
> more item, which I can't verify as gospel, but it was said that our
theater was
> the only one around with  regular seats instead of those hard benches,
courtesy
> of Clark Gable....anybody back me up?
> Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: Wmjdallas@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:14:21 EST
> To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Officers' Club
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> --part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I guess I was an exception to Jack, I spent a lot of evenings at the club
> having a few Half & Halfs. We sometimes went to Lillford Hall where the
beer
> was colder and 6 pence cheaper and there were girls there too. Back at the
> 427th & 358th Officers' Club, there was a pipe smoking major that could
hang
> from the rafters upside down, smoke his pipe and drink a beer. I don't
think
> he was on a combat crew. Jack, not all of us were as dedicated as you.
> Bill D.
>
> --part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>  =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I guess I was an exception to Jack, I spent a lot
o=
> f evenings at the club having a few Half & Halfs. We sometimes went to
L=
> illford Hall where the beer was colder and 6 pence cheaper and there were
gi=
> rls there too. Back at the 427th & 358th Officers' Club, there was a
pip=
> e smoking major that could hang from the rafters upside down, smoke his
pipe=
>  and drink a beer. I don't think he was on a combat crew. Jack, not all of
u=
> s were as dedicated as you.

> Bill D.
>
> --part1_15.b4a8f1c.2b8e41dd_boundary--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:02:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Cocktails for Two by Spike Jones
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Cocktails For Two
> Spike Jones
>
> In some secluded rendezvous,
> That overlooks the avenue,
> With someone sharing a delightful chat,
> Of this and that,
> And cocktails for two.
>
> As we enjoy a cigarette,
> To some exqiuisite chansonette,
> Two hands are sure to slyly meet beneath a serviette,
> With cocktails for two.
>
> My head may go reeling,
> But my heart will be o-be-di-ent,
> With in-tox-i-cat-ing kisses,
> For the principal in-gre-di-ent,
>
> Most any afternoon at five,
> We'll be so glad we're both alive,
> Then maybe fortune will complete her plan,
> That all began
> with cocktails for two
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains
> airfield architecture, especially the identification
> of the various buildings?  I have hundreds of photos
> from the old bases, and would like to learn more about
> what these old buildings were.  Some buildings are
> tall and square (parachute building or gunnery
> training) and are long and narrow.
>
> Any help appreciated!  Thanks!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:08:46 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Completed Mission Ritual
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I was again reading Bob Hands outstanding book "Last
> Raid" (shameless plug for a great, great book with
> even better illustrations).  Bob shows a few pictures
> of his crew after finishing their missions, and they
> had painted in red paint on the seat of their pants
> the number of missions completed.  Anyone know about
> the origin of this custom?  Was it confined to Bob's
> Squadron or was it a Group-wide practice?  I've never
> heard of this before.
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: Ggrewbah@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:06:57 EST
> To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd talk
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> My name is George Grubaugh. I'm the son of Franklin Grubaugh (deceased). I
> believe he was a tail gunner on the Pistol Packin Mama when it was shot
down.
> He survived, was captured by Tito's men? My understanding is that they
were
> shot down over Italy, not Germany. I'll post accurate info after I check
our
> family archives. Great site, thanks for taking the time.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Tom Beard" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:51:56 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spike Jones
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>  In the next room was a group going over for the USO, I
> suppose, Called "Spike Jones and his City Slickers"
>
>      He was tall and skinny. and packed a 45, loaded with blanks, They
> rehearsed daily and nightly. They did a song that started out "In a
secluded
> Ron-D-view, having a cigarette for two."
>
>
>
> "Cocktails for two" was the song! Spike Jones is still popular.........
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From: "Maurice Paulk" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:07:56 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Blue Star Banner
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH - from the Nebraska Legion Magazine
> for March  2003- it may be pertinent and it may not.
>
> The Blue Star Banner was originally designed and patented in 1917
> by World War Capt  Robert L Quesssner of the 5th Ohio  Infantry..
> The American Legion rejuvenated the Blue Star Banner program
> following the Seprember 11 attack.
>
> The Blue Star Banners, Gold Star Banners, Corparate Star Banners
> as well as Blue Star Posters, decals & lapel pins are available from
> the Legion's Emblem Sales division
>
> MAURICE J. PAULK
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Bill Conklin" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Did any of you ever meet
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:14:27 -0500
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>  I recall my father describing the initial "roundups" of folks to go see
> some of the entertainment, eg Bob Hope (?) etc. I take it from his
narrative
> that not every one on base was equally eager to meet and greet the
> celebrities that passed though. I got the sense that a few (Gable,
Cronkite)
> may have earned enough respect with the guys to have some common ground
but
> they were exceptions. Of course he was sympathetic to the CO's wishes not
to
> offend the Queen during her visit-  but my dad, contrary as ever, avoided
> the rest if at all possible.
>
> Understand, originally, all of this was usually expressed in far more
> colorful language than this mailing list could...or would ... endorse,
from
> a man born before being politically correct meant anything at all.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:00:21 -0600
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Thanks , Jack I hope if you ever got a direction change like that from a
> navigator, you'd just shake your head and turn to 30 degrees  and let the
> navigator catch up on the plot of his position and you turn on the radio
> compass and listen to music and get a little direction form that.
> LeRoy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 2:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters
>
>
> > Leroy,
> >      Thanks for putting in your 2 pennies worth.  You hit the pilots
right
> on
> > the head with your character analysis.  They were lucky to have a
> navigator
> > like you. I would feel blessed to have you on our crew where I could say
> > "Roger" rather than "What do you mean I THINK we should turn to ABOUT
390
> > degrees"??
> >      Very Best Wishes
> >           Jack
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:09:12 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] co-pilots and pilots characters& Navigators
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Le Roy,
>          Thanks for your note with the excellent advice therein.  I'll
admit
> I wasn't to shabby with a Radio Compass even thought I didn't listen to
music
> much. Now I'm going to tell you why I became a Navigator.
>       Pilot to Navigator: Gus (Not his real name) We've just lost two
engines
> and can't stay with the formation. Where are we? Navigator to pilot: Just
a
> minute. 15 minutes later "Gus where are we, I don't want to fly over 600
> guns," Well I'm not sure but I think we are east of the Rhine. He had one
> other location he used about half of the time. " I think we are west of
the
> Rhine." He was right 50% of the time. Would you believe they made him a
> deputy lead Navigator until I went over and talked to them?  Hang in there
> LeRoy.
>          Best Wishes,
>                 Jack
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 21:42:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:42:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movie Theater - Molesworth
Message-ID: <20030227214245.81532.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

There has been mention of the movie theater at
Molesworth. I was stationed there but apparently never
visited the theater. Where was it located?

Bill Runnels, Bombardier

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb 27 19:04:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:04:32 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angles Officers Club
Message-ID: <004001c2de93$30d01fe0$3fbbbad0@cts>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C2DE50.01D6CEC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi :=20
This is Spider Smith .I have a good story about the 303rd Oficers Club =
the one by the 360th and 359th.Chick Cecchini  and I with several other =
officers were singing around the piano in the bar . The piano was being =
played by Chicks  Bombardier Mcdevit . We realy enjoyed singing all =
those old songs . of course we all were having a drink now and then . =
all o f a sudden the bartender hollered "Time Gentlemen" meaning that =
the bar was closing .
 Not wanting to stop our fun singing we picked up the paino and moved it =
out to the lobby and continued to sing.=20
The Bartender was obsessed that we had moved the piano so he turned us =
in to the club leaders. We were summoned to a hearing before the Club =
board led by Lt Col "Smiley" Cole. I was terified as I thought I was =
being couurtmarshaled. Chick put his arm around my shoulder and said =
"What can they do to you ,make you stop flying combat" I'll never forget =
that coment. We were told that we shouldn't have moved the piano but =
that was all.=20
 Several years later I met Smiley Cole at Maxwell Field and he said that =
he would never forget that time.

       Dick " Spider" Smith 
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C2DE50.01D6CEC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi : 


This is Spider Smith .I have a good =
story about the=20
303rd Oficers Club the one by the 360th and 359th.Chick Cecchini  =
and I=20
with several other officers were singing around the piano in the bar . =
The piano=20
was being played by Chicks  Bombardier Mcdevit . We realy enjoyed =
singing=20
all those old songs . of course we all were having a drink now and then =
. all o=20
f a sudden the bartender hollered "Time Gentlemen" meaning that the bar =
was=20
closing .


 Not wanting to stop our fun =
singing we picked=20
up the paino and moved it out to the lobby and continued to sing. =



The Bartender was obsessed that we had =
moved the=20
piano so he turned us in to the club leaders. We were summoned to a =
hearing=20
before the Club board led by Lt Col "Smiley" Cole. I was terified as I =
thought I=20
was being couurtmarshaled. Chick put his arm around my shoulder and said =
"What=20
can they do to you ,make you stop flying combat" I'll never forget that =
coment.=20
We were told that we shouldn't have moved the piano but that was all.=20



 Several years later I met =
Smiley Cole at=20
Maxwell Field and he said that he would never forget that =
time.


 


       =
Dick " Spider"=20
Smith 


------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C2DE50.01D6CEC0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 28 14:02:47 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:02:47 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"
Message-ID: 

I recently purchased the movie "Twelve 0' Clock High," and I wondered if any 
of you men in the 303rd knew if the fictional Archbury Airfield was really 
Molesworth? Also were there really problems with commanders being "over 
identifying" with their men? I can see why commanders would be protecting 
their men, being with them everyday. How much was "Hollywood," and how much 
was right on track as far as incidents and scenes in the movie? The scene at 
the beginning with Dean Jagger reminiscing about B-17s starting up was one of 
the best. "Command Decision" was also and excellent movie about the 
psychological effects of aerial combat on men.
Thanks,
Terry


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 28 17:30:16 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:30:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Worst Flak Concentration
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030228173016.1296.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

St. Nazaire became famous for its flak defenses early
in the war ("Flak Alley," I think it was called) and
was a yardstick buy which all other flak
concentrations would be measured.  After the Germans
withdrew from the Falaise Gap after D-Day, more and
more 88s and 105 were pulled back on the Western
Front, and as the Russians advanced, more were pulled
back on the Eastern Front, making flak concentrations
later in the war even greater.  Two questions:

1.  What city or target had the worst flak you ever
experienced?  
2.  Freeman says that late in the war, flak even over
Pas de Calais and other NOBALL targets was intense and
accurate and that the fabled milk runs of earlier days
disappeared.  Do you agree?

Thanks, guys.  Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 28 17:20:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:20:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030228172043.97152.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Twelve O'Clock High was filmed at RAF Bovingdon and
the airfiled depicted, I have read and been told, was
for Alconbury, but there sure are a lot of Big
Triangle As on the tails of those Forts.

My favorite scene:

"Pettingill!

Yes, sir!

We’re mighty lucky to have only one loss on this
strike.  Why did you break formation?

Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on
fire and we were getting enemy fighters.  I thought I
should stay back with him and cover him going into the
target.

Ackerman a friend of yours?

My room mate, sir.

So for the sake of your room mate, you violated Group
Integrity.  Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give
the Group maximum defensive firepower.  When you pull
a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defensive
firepower of the Group by ten guns.  That’s what I
mean by Group Intergrity.  A crippled aeroplane has to
be expendible.  The one thing which is never
expendable is your obligation to this Group.  This
Group!  THIS GROUP!  That has to be your loyalty, your
only reason for being.  Stoval!

Yes, sir!

Have the Billeting Officer work out a complete
reassignment of quarters so that every man has a new
roommate.

Yes, sir."

Kevin



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 28 22:45:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:45:51 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Worst Flak Concentration
In-Reply-To: <20030228173016.1296.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Probably a matter of timing...as in Leipzig, Nov.30, '44, where  our Navigator
was seriously wounded ... Just at Bombs Away an intense barrage came up and I
was sure we'd never get out of there.  Berlin Feb.3,'45 was pretty intense,  but
we were early over the target and our tail gunner   reported all manner of
bursts hitting later formations.  Timing, I guess, is everything in life.
Cheers, Bob Hand 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb 28 23:52:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:52:01 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Worst Flak Concentration
Message-ID: 

What city had the worst Flak you ever experienced? If I had to answer in one 
word it would be  "Merseburg."  If I had to answer that in four words it 
would be Merseburg without a doubt.. If I had to answer that in 46 words it 
would be Merseburg, They had the most guns and the best gunners of anyplace I 
ever went to. We went there several times and every time when we got back our 
ground crew wanted to change the name of our bird to some religious name like 
"Holly Colander"
     Best Wishes,
         Jack Rencher