From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 03:55:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Walling) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:55:18 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Worst Flak Concentration In-Reply-To: <20030228173016.1296.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030228175518.0089b9e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> It seems to me that Merseberg was the most dreaded when I was there, with some 600 AA guns in the area. We suffered the most flak damage on the Jan 13, 1945 mission to Mannheim. Outr waist gunner got piece of flak in his gluteus Maximus (sp?) (butt?), I had a window shot out of my ball turret, and our ship was so damaged it was out of action for about a month. Jim Walling At 09:30 AM 2/28/03 -0800, you wrote: >St. Nazaire became famous for its flak defenses early >in the war ("Flak Alley," I think it was called) and >was a yardstick buy which all other flak >concentrations would be measured. After the Germans >withdrew from the Falaise Gap after D-Day, more and >more 88s and 105 were pulled back on the Western >Front, and as the Russians advanced, more were pulled >back on the Eastern Front, making flak concentrations >later in the war even greater. Two questions: > >1. What city or target had the worst flak you ever >experienced? >2. Freeman says that late in the war, flak even over >Pas de Calais and other NOBALL targets was intense and >accurate and that the fabled milk runs of earlier days >disappeared. Do you agree? > >Thanks, guys. Kevin > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 04:22:34 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:22:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID:

Many scenes in 12 O'clock High were base on fact, since the two authors lived through them. The airfield depicted was Thurleigh, home of the 306 BG (in the movie, the 918th, three times 306; a great group in California is called the 918th and puts on super displays at veterans reunions). The scene early on in the movie happened when Ira Eaker fired one of his best friends on the spot during a visit to Thurleigh. If you ever get to the area look up Ron Franklin for an excellent visit (Thurleigh was England's Edwards AFB for manly years after the war).

12 O'Clock was the best movie ever produced on the war.

Brian S. McGuire
>From: Thor542086@aol.com
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:02:47 EST
>
>I recently purchased the movie "Twelve 0' Clock High," and I wondered if any
>of you men in the 303rd knew if the fictional Archbury Airfield was really
>Molesworth? Also were there really problems with commanders being "over
>identifying" with their men? I can see why commanders would be protecting
>their men, being with them everyday. How much was "Hollywood," and how much
>was right on track as far as incidents and scenes in the movie? The scene at
>the beginning with Dean Jagger reminiscing about B-17s starting up was one of
>the best. "Command Decision" was also and excellent movie about the
>psychological effects of aerial combat on men.
>Thanks,
>Terry

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 04:47:06 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:47:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture Message-ID:

Kevin -

Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual? Has a chapter on airfield buildings.

Cheers, mate.

Brian S. McGuire
>From: Kevin Pearson
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture
>Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)
>
>Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains
>airfield architecture, especially the identification
>of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos
>from the old bases, and would like to learn more about
>what these old buildings were. Some buildings are
>tall and square (parachute building or gunnery
>training) and are long and narrow.
>
>Any help appreciated! Thanks!
>Kevin
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 04:45:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:45:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" References: Message-ID: <005a01c2dfad$e299ed30$a391c8cf@altonmain> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2DF6A.65DB6640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, All. A different take from another angle. If you look at most of the = planes the were in the ground footage, and takeoffs, a great many of = them had the "Triangle A" of the 91st BG. One of the reasons for this = was that the 91st was considered to be the "Country Club" of the 8th AF. = It had the best accommodations of any airbase in England. It had one of = the best PR men, who was left behind after William Wyler took a lot of = the film footage of "Combat America". I have some pictures of Clark = Gable, taken at Bassingbourn, with some of the combat crews. If anyone = is interested, I would be glad to send them on. Most of them are with = the crew of "Delta Rebel II". One of the men in the pics, Steve Perri, = is still alive and would be glad to vouche for their authenticity.=20 Watch the movie again, and tell me how many "Triangle A's" you see. = Movie makers, picture takers, and journalists spent months at = Bassingbourn, basking in the brick barracks, fine Officer's club, and a = fine Sgts. Mess. I have been in all of them in person, in the last few = years. They were, and still do exist.=20 Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" Many scenes in 12 O'clock High were base on fact, since the two = authors lived through them. The airfield depicted was Thurleigh, home of = the 306 BG (in the movie, the 918th, three times 306; a great group in = California is called the 918th and puts on super displays at veterans = reunions). The scene early on in the movie happened when Ira Eaker fired = one of his best friends on the spot during a visit to Thurleigh. If you = ever get to the area look up Ron Franklin for an excellent visit = (Thurleigh was England's Edwards AFB for manly years after the war). 12 O'Clock was the best movie ever produced on the war. Brian S. McGuire >From: Thor542086@aol.com=20 >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 >Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"=20 >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:02:47 EST=20 >=20 >I recently purchased the movie "Twelve 0' Clock High," and I wondered = if any=20 >of you men in the 303rd knew if the fictional Archbury Airfield was = really=20 >Molesworth? Also were there really problems with commanders being = "over=20 >identifying" with their men? I can see why commanders would be = protecting=20 >their men, being with them everyday. How much was "Hollywood," and = how much=20 >was right on track as far as incidents and scenes in the movie? The = scene at=20 >the beginning with Dean Jagger reminiscing about B-17s starting up = was one of=20 >the best. "Command Decision" was also and excellent movie about the=20 >psychological effects of aerial combat on men.=20 >Thanks,=20 >Terry=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2DF6A.65DB6640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, All.
    A different take from another = angle. If=20 you look at most of the planes the were in the ground footage, and = takeoffs, a=20 great many of them had the "Triangle A" of the 91st BG. One of the = reasons for=20 this was that the 91st was considered to be the "Country Club" of the = 8th AF. It=20 had the best accommodations of any airbase in England. It had one of the = best PR=20 men, who was left behind after William Wyler took a lot of the film = footage of=20 "Combat America". I have some pictures of Clark Gable, taken at = Bassingbourn,=20 with some of the combat crews. If anyone is interested, I would be glad = to send=20 them on. Most of them are with the crew of "Delta Rebel II". One of the = men in=20 the pics, Steve Perri, is still alive and would be glad to vouche for = their=20 authenticity.
    Watch the movie again, and = tell me how=20 many "Triangle A's" you see. Movie makers, picture takers, and = journalists spent=20 months at Bassingbourn, basking in the brick barracks, fine Officer's = club, and=20 a fine Sgts. Mess. I have been in all of them in person, in the last few = years.=20 They were, and still do exist.
Gordy.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian=20 McGuire
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 = 8:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' = 0 Clock=20 High"

Many scenes in 12 O'clock High were base on fact, since the two = authors=20 lived through them. The airfield depicted was Thurleigh, home of the = 306 BG=20 (in the movie, the 918th, three times 306; a great group in California = is=20 called the 918th and puts on super displays at veterans reunions). The = scene=20 early on in the movie happened when Ira Eaker fired one of his best = friends on=20 the spot during a visit to Thurleigh. If you ever get to the area look = up Ron=20 Franklin for an excellent visit (Thurleigh was England's Edwards AFB = for manly=20 years after the war).

12 O'Clock was the best movie ever produced on the war.

Brian S.=20 McGuire
>From: Thor542086@aol.com=20
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"=20
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:02:47 EST=20
>=20
>I recently purchased the movie "Twelve 0' Clock High," = and I=20 wondered if any=20
>of you men in the 303rd knew if the fictional Archbury = Airfield=20 was really=20
>Molesworth? Also were there really problems with = commanders=20 being "over=20
>identifying" with their men? I can see why commanders = would be=20 protecting=20
>their men, being with them everyday. How much was = "Hollywood,"=20 and how much=20
>was right on track as far as incidents and scenes in = the movie?=20 The scene at=20
>the beginning with Dean Jagger reminiscing about B-17s = starting=20 up was one of=20
>the best. "Command Decision" was also and excellent = movie about=20 the=20
>psychological effects of aerial combat on men.=20
>Thanks,=20
>Terry=20

STOP MORE SPAM with the new = MSN 8=20 and get 2 months FREE* ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2DF6A.65DB6640-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 05:27:01 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:27:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID: <75.b538ee9.2b919ea5@aol.com> Gordon & Brian, Tomorrow I plan on trying to find Twelve O'clock High That I can see on my old TV. I saw The Memphis Belle when it was in a local theater. I got so sick to my stomach I got up and left. I didn't go to ER. I was so sick I was afraid they would call the funeral home to come and get me. Hope I have better luck this time. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 11:18:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mark Walters) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 11:18:30 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture References: Message-ID: <001f01c2dfe4$4bb47390$bb104e51@MARKANDGILL> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DFE4.49F44D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin=20 Some airfield buildings titles for you: Graham Buchan Innes, 1995 British Airfield Buildings of the Second = World War. Midland Publishing Limited.=20 Paul Francis, 1996 British Military Airfield Architecture. Patrick = Stephens Limited. Steve Willis & Barry Holliss, 1990 Military Airfields in the British = Isles 1939-1945 (Omnibus Edition) Enthusiasts Publications.=20 Also Roger Freeman's volumes on Airfields of the Eighth: Then & Now=20 All the best=20 Mark=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture Kevin - Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual? Has a chapter on = airfield buildings. Cheers, mate. Brian S. McGuire >From: Kevin Pearson=20 >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture=20 >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)=20 >=20 >Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains=20 >airfield architecture, especially the identification=20 >of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos=20 >from the old bases, and would like to learn more about=20 >what these old buildings were. Some buildings are=20 >tall and square (parachute building or gunnery=20 >training) and are long and narrow.=20 >=20 >Any help appreciated! Thanks!=20 >Kevin=20 >=20 >__________________________________________________=20 >Do you Yahoo!?=20 >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more=20 >http://taxes.yahoo.com/=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DFE4.49F44D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kevin
 
Some airfield buildings titles for=20 you:
 
Graham Buchan Innes, 1995  British = Airfield=20 Buildings of the Second World War. Midland Publishing Limited. =
Paul Francis, 1996  British = Military Airfield=20 Architecture. Patrick Stephens Limited.
Steve Willis & Barry Holliss, = 1990 =20 Military Airfields in the British Isles 1939-1945 (Omnibus Edition) = Enthusiasts=20 Publications.
 
Also Roger Freeman's volumes on = Airfields of the=20 Eighth: Then & Now
 
All the best
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian=20 McGuire
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 = 4:47=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = Airfield=20 Architecture

Kevin -

Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual? Has a chapter = on=20 airfield buildings.

Cheers, mate.

Brian S.=20 McGuire
>From: Kevin Pearson
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture=20
>Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)=20
>=20
>Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains=20
>airfield architecture, especially the identification=20
>of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos=20
>from the old bases, and would like to learn more about=20
>what these old buildings were. Some buildings are=20
>tall and square (parachute building or gunnery=20
>training) and are long and narrow.=20
>=20
>Any help appreciated! Thanks!=20
>Kevin=20
>=20
>__________________________________________________=20
>Do you Yahoo!?=20
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more=20
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/=20

Protect your PC - Click = here for=20 McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DFE4.49F44D00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 13:02:15 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 05:02:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" References: <75.b538ee9.2b919ea5@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c2dff2$c9355330$e091c8cf@altonmain> 'Lo, Jack. I have a new version on DVD that I would be glad to lend to you, if you have a DVD player. It is a lot nicer to use than the VHS tapes we are all so used to. Just send me your address, and I'll put it in the mail for you to look at. Gordy. Gordon Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to keep your freedom free..." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" > Gordon & Brian, > Tomorrow I plan on trying to find Twelve O'clock High That I can see on > my old TV. I saw The Memphis Belle when it was in a local theater. I got so > sick to my stomach I got up and left. I didn't go to ER. I was so sick I was > afraid they would call the funeral home to come and get me. Hope I have > better luck this time. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 1 17:12:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Don Spruner) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:12:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Worst flak Message-ID: <000a01c2e015$c45d9e80$6bac1fd0@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2DFD2.B5463A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Far and away Merseburg stands out in my mind as the worst flak also the = best for accuracy. How many of you survivors can claim Merseburg as = their 35th and final mission? Can you imagine the feeling going to = briefing that morning(Nov 21, 1944) and hearing Merseburg was the = target for today? Don Spruner ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2DFD2.B5463A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Far and away Merseburg stands out in my = mind as the=20 worst flak also the best for accuracy. How many of you survivors can = claim=20 Merseburg as their 35th and final mission? Can you imagine the feeling = going to=20 briefing that morning(Nov 21, 1944) and hearing Merseburg was  the = target=20 for today?
Don Spruner
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2DFD2.B5463A80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 2 05:46:59 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Jack R. In-Reply-To: <75.b538ee9.2b919ea5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030302054659.747.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> I would be most happy to make you a copy of mine. Seems the least I can do for all the help you"ve given me. All I need is your address. Kevin --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Gordon & Brian, > Tomorrow I plan on trying to find Twelve > O'clock High That I can see on > my old TV. I saw The Memphis Belle when it was in a > local theater. I got so > sick to my stomach I got up and left. I didn't go to > ER. I was so sick I was > afraid they would call the funeral home to come and > get me. Hope I have > better luck this time. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 2 05:51:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:51:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture/Mark Walters In-Reply-To: <001f01c2dfe4$4bb47390$bb104e51@MARKANDGILL> Message-ID: <20030302055121.87493.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Mark for the info! Ray Jude of the East Anglian Aviation Society showed me the first book you recommended in 1999 when I was visiting, but I lost the title. Going to Barnes & Nobel tomarrow and see if I can order one. Kevin --- Mark Walters wrote: > Kevin > > Some airfield buildings titles for you: > > Graham Buchan Innes, 1995 British Airfield > Buildings of the Second World War. Midland > Publishing Limited. > Paul Francis, 1996 British Military Airfield > Architecture. Patrick Stephens Limited. > Steve Willis & Barry Holliss, 1990 Military > Airfields in the British Isles 1939-1945 (Omnibus > Edition) Enthusiasts Publications. > > Also Roger Freeman's volumes on Airfields of the > Eighth: Then & Now > > All the best > Mark > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian McGuire > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 4:47 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture > > > Kevin - > > Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War > Manual? Has a chapter on airfield buildings. > > Cheers, mate. > > Brian S. McGuire > >From: Kevin Pearson > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture > >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST) > > > >Does anyone know of a good book or books that > explains > >airfield architecture, especially the > identification > >of the various buildings? I have hundreds of > photos > >from the old bases, and would like to learn more > about > >what these old buildings were. Some buildings are > > >tall and square (parachute building or gunnery > >training) and are long and narrow. > > > >Any help appreciated! Thanks! > >Kevin > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, > more > >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com > VirusScan Online > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 2 15:28:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:28:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Jack R. In-Reply-To: <20030302054659.747.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Dean Jagger had a well-earned surge in popularity as a result of "12" It was the year 1949 and he won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor. He died of influenza in 1991 at age 87 (yeah...87!) So many can relate to his nostalgic stroll along with the haunting melody in the background. Don't worry, Hollywood will come along with a second effort featuring J.P.Studworthy and introducing a kiddie-cutie female lead. Uncle Jack...where are you headed??? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 03:42:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 22:42:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just Saw 12 O'Clock High Message-ID: Kevin, Gordon. Bob Hand, Brian. THANK YOU FELLOWS VERY MUCH. I hate to borrow any thing so yesterday I went out and bought a DVD player to go on my old TV and the 12 O'clock disc. I'll admit I had to call my grandson to tell me which buttons to push after I got it hooked up. I just finished watching it tonight. I see it was directed by Henry King. His son Frank King was our Cadet Commander when I was in Pilot Preflight in Santa Anna California. I don't remember ever hearing of him again after I went to primary. The first scenes when he walked out on the abandoned runway got to me. I might have nearly shed a tear. I was all alone and my room was dark so no one saw me. I saw a few triangles with our C. I was impressed except when they took their goggles off in the flak on the bomb run and when they talked they pushed their throat mikes up with their hand. Thanks again fellows. No more comments. It's 8:30 (2030) and I haven't fixed me any supper (Dinner to you city folks) yet. Oh yes I didn't like the pilots and crew loading in their birds with the engines already running. I suppose it made better Hollywood. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 04:51:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:51:30 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just Saw 12 O'Clock High References: Message-ID: <002e01c2e140$90f72df0$ac91c8cf@altonmain> 'Lo, Jack. You remind me of my Dad. He wouldn't borrow anything either. The worst cuff in the head I ever got from him was when I borrowed the neighbor's motorcycle, and smacked it up ( I was 14). He paid the neighbor for the motorcycle, and told me that he hoped I'd learned a good lesson about borrowin' stuff. I would have gotten worse punishment if I hadn't busted my collarbone in five places. It took me a month of Saturdays to work that off, down at Dad's lumberyard. We should have known that you'd pick up on the inaccuracies....every movie produced about the war has a few. It takes a sharp eye and a knowledge of the real thing to notice. You are the expert, sir, and we all luv ya for it. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 7:42 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just Saw 12 O'Clock High > Kevin, Gordon. Bob Hand, Brian. > THANK YOU FELLOWS VERY MUCH. I hate to borrow any thing so yesterday I > went out and bought a DVD player to go on my old TV and the 12 O'clock disc. > I'll admit I had to call my grandson to tell me which buttons to push after I > got it hooked up. I just finished watching it tonight. > > I see it was directed by Henry King. His son Frank King was our Cadet > Commander when I was in Pilot Preflight in Santa Anna California. I don't > remember ever hearing of him again after I went to primary. > The first scenes when he walked out on the abandoned runway got to me. I > might have nearly shed a tear. I was all alone and my room was dark so no one > saw me. > > I saw a few triangles with our C. I was impressed except when they took > their goggles off in the flak on the bomb run and when they talked they > pushed their throat mikes up with their hand. Thanks again fellows. No more > comments. It's 8:30 (2030) and I haven't fixed me any supper (Dinner to you > city folks) yet. Oh yes I didn't like the pilots and crew loading in their > birds with the engines already running. I suppose it made better Hollywood. > Best Wishes, > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 14:42:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:42:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: P-38 animation In-Reply-To: <002e01c2e140$90f72df0$ac91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: > Jack, welcome to DVD Land....it's a wonder it doesn't throw all our other appliances into obsolescence. Wonder if you caught the History Channel.s account of the killing of Yamomoto by that P-38 team of "assassins". I thought the animation was excellent...wonder if they'll ever tackle one of the 8th Biggies. Re/ "12 O'clock" I read you with that sneaky tear. I was one of 3 people in the theatre for "Sgt.Ryan" and the scene with Mrs.R. And the command car in the driveway just ruined me. Good luck with your DVD collection...at last we picked up "Singing in the Rain"...a little escapism, you know. Cheers, Bob Hand> > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 19:47:24 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:47:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID: I can only judge such movies for ethnicity by the feedback I get from 8th AF veterans who flew in WWII or what I have read i.e Roger = Freeman. "12 '0 Clock High" was written by a Bernie Lay & Sy Bartlett who spent = time in the 8th AF. All of the WWII veterans who flew in the 8th have liked 12 'O clock for = the most past, but REALLY DISLIKE 1989 Memphis Belle, Command Decision = is a toss up (Higher Echelon dealing with the politics.. while smoking some fine cigars.. Go Clark = Gable.) As Stoval parks his bicycle and walks over to the field to reminisce you can see two bulls in the background locking horns with each other... (Clearly I have watched this movie too many times.) The footage of the = B-17=20 coming in for a 'belly' landing (Ball turret had been removed) at the beginning of the movie was suppose to have been filmed at a (ARCHBURY) old field on Eglin AFB, while other footage from the war was spliced in (303rd / 91st). Obviously Bernie Lay wanted to capture the stress of bomb group that was suffering a high percentile of losses. Some say he used Col. Frank = Armstrong as his role model for Gen. Savage. Maybe the director didn't capture = everything in the movie, but based upon what I have read and spoken with those that = were=20 there 12 o'H did a great job overall with some very fine acting thrown = in. As noted before in 303 talk, I always liked the General Savage line after Harvey's "I think I got a piece of one" comment, Savage: "Ours or = Theirs?" I am really glad they chose to shot this movie and B&W. Greg Pierce 8th AFHS - WA From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 23:58:10 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:58:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] a question??? Message-ID: <002201c2e1e0$c0fc9da0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2E1AE.73D39380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack: crank back your memory to Santa Anna and tell me the name of the musical = direcot of the Santa Ana Army Air Force Cadet Band--he was from MGM and = I played in the band for a few weeks in Dec 43 and Jan 44. Before entering the service I would listen to the recorded program = broadcast on Saturday morning radio - CBS, I think=20 Haven't asked any one else this question since none have really talked = about Santa Ana--It was a good place for me since I had and aunt and = uncle living in Long Beach so I could spend Thanksgiving and Christmas = with them and a high school buddy (I was sort of adoped into his family) = who was at Lancaster. Then, too, my brother in the 5th marines had come = back from New Guinea as a paratrooper to Camp Pendleton and it was at = Sana Ana that we had our one and only get together on a Sunday before I = was off to Kingman and he to the South Pacific and Iwo Jima/ LeRoy Christenson Navigator ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2E1AE.73D39380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jack:
crank back your memory to Santa Anna = and tell me=20 the name of the musical direcot of the Santa Ana Army Air Force Cadet = Band--he=20 was from MGM and I played in the band for a few weeks in Dec 43 and Jan=20 44.
Before entering the service I  = would listen to=20 the recorded program broadcast on Saturday morning radio - CBS, I=20 think 
Haven't asked any one else this = question since none=20 have really talked about Santa Ana--It was a good place for me since I = had and=20 aunt and uncle living in Long Beach so I could spend Thanksgiving and = Christmas=20 with them and a high school buddy (I was sort of adoped into his family) = who was=20 at Lancaster. Then, too, my brother in the 5th marines had come back = from New=20 Guinea as a paratrooper to Camp Pendleton and it was at Sana Ana = that we=20 had our one and only get together on a Sunday before I was off to = Kingman=20 and he to the South Pacific and Iwo Jima/
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator   
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2E1AE.73D39380-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 3 22:47:54 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:47:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688002ACFEB8@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Have to put my 2 cents in on my favorite WWII movie. The opening story concerning LT Bishop and his recommendation for the MOH, is straight from the one given to Red Morgan of the 92nd. Read the story at: http://www.merkki.com/morganjohn.htm. And I agree that the "ours or theirs" line is the best one in the movie. I laugh every time. Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 01:10:22 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:10:22 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] a question??? Message-ID: <6.b5acfc7.2b9556fe@aol.com> LeRoy, When I enlisted in the Army Air Corps Cadet program shortly after Pearl Harbor in 1942 one had to have completed 2 years of college or pass an equivalent exam to get in. About one or two percent of those who took the exam passed it. It was a rough one. I got kicked out of High School about 6 weeks into my 2nd year. I did pass the exam with a high score and was accepted. All my class mates had two years or more of college. Many had college degrees. At least one I knew was a physics teacher in a Jr. College. I graduated from pilot school 7 January 1944. That meant I was in cadets most all of 1943. Believe me I did NOT listen to the radio. Man I had to study. Every day I would buy 2 flash light batteries and after lights out at 10: PM I would fire up my flashlight and study until my batteries were dead. (About 2 hours) It worked. I got a higher grade in Physics than my physics teacher friend. Bragging a bit I got 100% on our 3 exams and up until that time I was the only one who had ever done that. I'm sorry I can't help you with the radio program. I'm sure the only radio I ever had on during that period of my life came through my ear phones when I was shooting landings or checking in on a cross country. Sorry LeRoy, I hate to let you down. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 02:58:11 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:58:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID: <74.2b801d4e.2b957043@aol.com> Greg Pierce I have never felt a need to be entertained. I have been satisfied to think, study, create and build. Hence I have not gone to many parties, dances, movies and bars. I have nothing against them, I just don't get anything out of them. I did go to see The Memphis Belle. I was so disgusted with the Hollywood in it I walked out When 12 O'clock high got on Gary's discussion group I felt left out as I had never seen it. SO I bought a DVD player and the 12 O'clock High Disc. I watched it last night and enjoyed it and was amused by a bit of it. In my war I was there in the latter half of 1944, our planes were mostly or all G models, Not Fs. Flak was our big problem not so much the fighters of the earlier times. My associates were Lieutenants and Sargents, Not Generals & Colonels so I learned a lot about their life I had never seen before. During the time I have participated in Gary's e-mail, watched Memphis Belle, Had many questions thrown at me and now have seen 12 O'clock High (The best war picture I have seen) I feel a bit concerned about the Hollywood version of our physiological reaction to the dangers and fears of flying combat. I have thought about this a lot but a lot more last night and today after I saw 12 O'clock High. Am I different? Are any of you or even some of you like me? Was I afraid? Yes, of course in a way. I knew when I went in Cadets to fly combat it was a very dangerous and life threatening occupation. I knew it was kill or be killed. I didn't want to die for my country, but I was prepared to do so and would not have been surprised if I was. I wanted to see to it that my enemy died for his country and I felt damned well qualified to see that he did. When I was in school I took my 22 pistol to school with me, After school I went out into the dessert or woods depending on where I was and shot a rabbit or two. Or squirrels, or quail, or doves, etc., sometimes a deer or turkey. I had nothing against them. It was them or me. If I had not killed them My brother and sister and parents would have had no supper and we would have starved. When I saw a rattlesnake or maybe a wolf or a bear up close I often killed it. Not because I wanted to eat it but because it might kill me. I had learned to shot first and ask questions later. Now I do not have to kill things to stay alive as some of my human friends do it for me for a price. When I eat steak or roast or bacon or chicken or turkey or fish I know that someone had to kill it for me and my fellow humans or we would starve to death. So it is still them or me (or us) and I am still of the same frame of mind I was in the war. I and my family cannot survive in this world very long by talking. If it falls in my responsibility to be one of the killers so the rest of us can survive a life as we know it I was and am mentally prepare to do so. I always thought that most of the rest of my Air Corps buddies felt the same way I did. It was them or us and we were going to do our very best to see that it was them. Nothing personal. I think if we would have been asked to fly our 35 missions in 35 days we would have bitched a bit but we would have done so and very few if any would have said "I want to transfer out" Shame on you Hollywood" Bravery is not an absence of fear. An absence of fear in a war is stupidity. Bravery is functioning in spite of fear. I think we did and am damn proud of us and like wise for our boys and girls who are over there doing it for us now. If free men are going to live on this planet they must be prepared to fight and even die to maintain that freedom. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 03:10:31 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:10:31 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: P-38 animation Message-ID: <145.c03e425.2b957327@aol.com> Bob Hand, It is always good to hear from you. I have a collection of one DVD disc now. I have seen my complete collection. I don't know yet what my next one will be. I'll let you know. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 12:40:47 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:40:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... In-Reply-To: <002201c2e1e0$c0fc9da0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3129608447_40342705 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > What better place on this earth than to be at Kingman for the holidays! Do > you remember the horrible bus crash there that cost 26 lives? Cheers, Bob > Hand --B_3129608447_40342705 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Kingman at Christmas....
What better place on this ear= th than to be at Kingman for the holidays!  Do you remember the horribl= e bus crash there that cost 26  lives?  Cheers, Bob Hand

 --B_3129608447_40342705-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 12:52:57 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:52:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: P-38 animation In-Reply-To: <145.c03e425.2b957327@aol.com> Message-ID: >Mornin, Jack...hope you're well and reasonably joyous. Talk about collections, I have a bunch of oldies should you ever want to delve back into early aviation a la Hollywood...Hell's Angels, Wings, Dawn Patrol, TokoRi, War Lover. Lost Squadron, Blue Max, Air Mail, Reunion at Fairborough (Mitchum/Kerr) Billy Bishop, Catch 22, Hanover Square...etc., etc. Lotsa nostallgia flying through hangars, grimacing through goggles...you name it. Many thanks for your wonderful letters. Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 17:34:24 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:34:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Glacier Gal/History Channel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304173424.9844.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Did anyone catch the show on the History Channel last night about the magnificently restored P-38 that was brought up from under many feet of ice in Greenland? We've heard and read about this effort for years, but this is the first time I've seen the result. The P-38 is just beautiful and the program showed her going through all of her test flights. Jack R. you have to catch this show! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 17:57:11 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:57:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jark R.'s Movie Collection - Let's Help Him out In-Reply-To: <145.c03e425.2b957327@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030304175711.61948.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Jack! Well, you beat me, I still have two VCRs and about a hundred tapes. I need to do something about that. For your growing DVD collection, may I recommend Flight of the Phoenix. This is one of my all time favorite movies and I believe Jimmy Stewart's war time experiences are very well portrayed in this movie. It is a classic I know you would enjoy watching. Just a plug for one more - Tora Tora Tora. The History Channel had a series called History vs. Hollywood whereby they critiqued various war movies for authenticity. Tora Tora Tora was at the top of the heap with only one or two minor flaws. Anyone else want to help Jack out with his growing DVD collection? Cheers! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 17:59:22 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:59:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304175922.6162.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Bob: Ray Ward, 91st BG pilot of Texas Chubby/The J'Ville Jolter, wrote about that horrible crash. I vividly remember his words. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 18:05:27 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:05:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Brian McGuire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304180527.8476.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Brian: That is facinating, Brian, and the first time I have ever heard that. What do they say in England, "Brilliant." It makes sense and I appreciate knowing that. I've done some research on the 306th and didn't realize they had such long and distinguished track record in the ETO. Not that I am doubting you, but what is your source of this information? Is it in a book somewhere? I have long been intrigued with 12 O'Clock High and would like to know more about it. As always, Brian, it is great hearing from you! (Do you miss the English beer yet?) Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 21:51:45 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:51:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Glacier Gal/History Channel In-Reply-To: <20030304173424.9844.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Watched the P-38 fly again when it was a news item...would have loved to be there in person. There is a B-17F being brought back, having been subject to Arctic winds and elements, but not buried. I spoke to the director of the effort and work will (or is in the process of) be done at a hangar in Cincinnati. This particular very early model was bent in half by the winds but the discoverer claims it's all there. He adds that the a/c will be restored to flying condition but not flown...mainly a ground exhibit. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 4 21:58:09 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:58:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... In-Reply-To: <20030304175922.6162.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That morning I awoke with a miserable eye infection...had to be led to the latrine where I soaked my eyes open...yukkkk! Anyway, it got me out of firing on the night gunnery range. When news of the disaster spread, we all rushed to the hospital to give blood, but I think there was only one real survivor out of 26 cadets. Not the place to be that Christmas. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 5 03:57:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 21:57:39 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... References: Message-ID: <003d01c2e2cb$5f2390c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2E299.1331CE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Kingman at Christmas....I wouldn't even wish someone to be there on = their birthday!!!!!! Thank goodness I could spend Christmans in Long Beach and Los Angles and = didn't hit Kingman and the tarpaper shacks until Feb. 44 LeRoy = Christenson ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Hand=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... What better place on this earth than to be at Kingman for the = holidays! Do you remember the horrible bus crash there that cost 26 = lives? Cheers, Bob Hand ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2E299.1331CE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Kingman at Christmas....
I wouldn't even wish someone to be = there on their=20 birthday!!!!!!
Thank goodness I could spend Christmans = in Long=20 Beach and Los Angles and didn't hit Kingman and the tarpaper shacks = until Feb.=20 44  LeRoy Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob=20 Hand
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 = 6:40=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: = Kingman at=20 Christmas....

What better place on = this earth=20 than to be at Kingman for the holidays!  Do you remember the = horrible=20 bus crash there that cost 26  lives?  Cheers, Bob=20 Hand

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2E299.1331CE20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 5 04:12:15 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:12:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Glacier Gal/History Channel References: <20030304173424.9844.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005e01c2e2cd$6958de40$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Yes, did see the HST channel program , but had seen almost the same film at the Owatonna Air Museum ( now clsed) about 2 years ago, plus other exhibits relating to the recovery. The owner of Owatonna Tool and Die was onsite during the recovery and I think his company made some of the machined replacment parts. He was killed in a crash of one his experimental planes about a year ago, just before the airshow in Oshgosh LeRoy Christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Glacier Gal/History Channel > Did anyone catch the show on the History Channel last > night about the magnificently restored P-38 that was > brought up from under many feet of ice in Greenland? > We've heard and read about this effort for years, but > this is the first time I've seen the result. The P-38 > is just beautiful and the program showed her going > through all of her test flights. Jack R. you have to > catch this show! > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 5 03:56:12 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (J.P. Bell) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:56:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A 303rd pilot named Way Message-ID: <024a01c2e2ce$67510ae0$06113841@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C2E2A1.409AE420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi guys. ... Do any of you remember a pilot in the 358th sqdn. whose = last name was Way? My father, Julian Bell, Sr. (I wasn't yet officially = on earth to be his Jr.) was his bombardier. Years ago, I talked with = the navigator, Eldon Sigurdson. Somewhere around, I have a list of the = other crewmembers, whose families my mother corresponded with while = waiting for my father's MIA status to be resolved. Look forward to = hearing from anyone who might have known them. -- Julian P. Bell II belljp44@earthlink.net Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV) ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C2E2A1.409AE420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi guys. ... Do any of you remember a = pilot in the=20 358th sqdn. whose last name was Way?  My father, Julian Bell, = Sr. (I=20 wasn't yet officially on earth to be his Jr.) was his=20 bombardier.  Years ago, I talked with the navigator, Eldon=20 Sigurdson.  Somewhere around, I have a list of the other = crewmembers, whose=20 families my mother corresponded with while waiting for my father's MIA = status to=20 be resolved.  Look forward to hearing from anyone who might have = known=20 them.
-- Julian P. Bell II    = belljp44@earthlink.net &n= bsp; =20 Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV)
------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C2E2A1.409AE420-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 5 13:27:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:27:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... In-Reply-To: <20030304175922.6162.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Further on that Kingman crash, one of the lives spared was the OIC who was supposedly standing in the door well and flung out of the bus on impact. Another casualty was the guard at the crossing who witnessed the crash from twenty feet and lost it for real. Hope there's some better news today!!! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 5 17:17:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:17:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030305171721.34968.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> I must have a different Airfields book than you. Mine has nothing on buildings, but does have just a page or two about the design of the bases - hardstands, runway length, etc. Kevin --- Brian McGuire wrote: --------------------------------- Kevin - Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual? Has a chapter on airfield buildings. Cheers, mate. Brian S. McGuire>From: Kevin Pearson >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST) > >Does anyone know of a good book or books that explains >airfield architecture, especially the identification >of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos >from the old bases, and would like to learn more about >what these old buildings were. Some buildings are >tall and square (parachute building or gunnery >training) and are long and narrow. > >Any help appreciated! Thanks! >Kevin > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 02:01:13 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:01:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture Message-ID:

Kevin -

Someone else mentioned the Airfields book. I mentioned the Manual, one of what I call Freeman's Big Four. (Airfields, Diary, War Manual, Warpaint). In the War Manual Part 3 is entitled Installations, and there is some good poop here. He covers development of 8AF bases, and has some photos and text on airfield buildings. Good luck, Kevin!

Brian S. McGuire
>From: Kevin Pearson
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture
>Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
>
>I must have a different Airfields book than you. Mine
>has nothing on buildings, but does have just a page or
>two about the design of the bases - hardstands, runway
>length, etc.
>Kevin
>
>--- Brian McGuire wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Kevin -
>
>Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual?
>Has a chapter on airfield buildings.
>
>Cheers, mate.
>Brian S. McGuire>From: Kevin Pearson >Reply-To:
>303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture
> >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST) > >Does
>anyone know of a good book or books that explains
> >airfield architecture, especially the identification
> >of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos
> >from the old bases, and would like to learn more
>about >what these old buildings were. Some buildings
>are >tall and square (parachute building or gunnery
> >training) and are long and narrow. > >Any help
>appreciated! Thanks! >Kevin >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms,
>calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>---------------------------------
>Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan
>Online
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 02:46:33 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:46:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Brian McGuire Message-ID:

Kevin -

I even have a folder full of 12 O'Clock High in my 4 file cabinets of 8AF newsletters, correspondence, photos, etc. Several excellent sources. First, try the book "Yanks Over Europe, American Fluyers in Workd War II, by Jerome Klinkowitz (if you don't have it yet, GET IT. A MUST for 8AF aficionados. Pages73-75 covers some of the actual instances depicted in the book/movie. The Spring 2000 issue of the Mighty Eighth AF Heritage Museum had an article on the movie. A very complete article, well illustrated, appeared in the Sep 99 Aviation History, a fantastic magazine that I will forever subscribe to (lots of aviation art); this article was reproduced in the March 2000 (Issue 42) of Framlingham Times, which I would have suspected that you received. Another article appeared in teh Dec 99 Flight Journal, entitled Hollywood's Bomber Baron, the Screenpalys of Beirne Lay, jr.. I also have an article by Martin Bowman, a friend of mine from England who has done a few books on the 8th, entlted "Return to Archbury," but I can't find where I got it!. I will send Martin an e-mail and find out.

In my last e-mail I mentioned Freeman's big four, and listed the Warpaint book by accident; it should have been "The Mighty Eighth," of which my copy is dogeared. Happy reading.

Brian S. McGuire
>From: Kevin Pearson
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Brian McGuire
>Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:05:27 -0800 (PST)
>
>Brian: That is facinating, Brian, and the first time
>I have ever heard that. What do they say in England,
>"Brilliant." It makes sense and I appreciate knowing
>that. I've done some research on the 306th and didn't
>realize they had such long and distinguished track
>record in the ETO. Not that I am doubting you, but
>what is your source of this information? Is it in a
>book somewhere? I have long been intrigued with 12
>O'Clock High and would like to know more about it.
>
>As always, Brian, it is great hearing from you!
>(Do you miss the English beer yet?)
>Kevin
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 03:02:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:02:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mr Renchers Library Message-ID: <00a901c2e38c$cf863180$7f970243@default> Hey guys, I dunno if its such a good idea loadin' Jack down with all those movies....we might not hear from him for WEEKS. Maybe if he just got one every month. Movie of the Month type thing.... Speaking of the Lost Squadron heres a few links http://www.aetn.org/lostsquadron/lostsquadronviewerguide.shtml http://www.thelostsquadron.com/museum.html Thanks to all Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 03:42:27 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John I. Jenkins) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:42:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Travel and airfields Message-ID: <001001c2e392$8cf9b2a0$690fa641@j3367> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2E357.BBF8CD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having once been a dutiful soul who kept a copy of all orders = received, I have at hand the set of papers directing our crew's travel = by B-17 43-38093 from Kearney to the UK in July of 1944. After getting = from Kearney to Bangor, we appeared to come under the jurisdiction of = the North Atlantic Wing of the ATC, and got to spend a week or so at = Gander before departing for Nutts Corner, Northern Ireland. It would = appear, from the several narratives that appeared in this forum, that = many possible routes led to Molesworth. I do not recall anyone mentioning stopping at the garden spot of = Stone, England, part of which seems to have gone by the name of the 16th = Replacement Control Depot. A few days there preceded the trip to the = 1st Replacement and Training Squadron (B) at Bovingdon. It would seem = that the latter place had a number of designations in use at different = times. Incidentally, the folks at Stone's 70th Replacement Depot took a = bunch of us happy returnees by truck to a nearby but deserted railway = station late on a January night so we could stand around in the snow and = cold for several hours waiting for a train to take us to the "Edmund B. = Alexander" troop ship waiting at Southampton. Several individuals were = treated for frostbite after boarding the ship. As to the subject of airfields in Britain, there were about a = dozen books published in the 1980s by Patrick Stephens Ltd. under the = overall title of "Action Stations" that contain about as much detailed = information concerning the fields as one could possibly want. John I. = Jenkins ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2E357.BBF8CD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        = Having once=20 been a dutiful soul who kept a copy of all orders received, I have at = hand the=20 set of papers directing our crew's travel by B-17 43-38093 from Kearney = to the=20 UK in July of 1944.  After getting from Kearney to Bangor, we = appeared to=20 come under the jurisdiction of the North Atlantic Wing of the ATC, and = got to=20 spend a week or so at Gander before departing for Nutts Corner, Northern = Ireland.  It would appear, from the several narratives that = appeared in=20 this forum, that many possible routes led to = Molesworth.
        I = do not=20 recall anyone mentioning stopping at the garden spot of Stone, England, = part of=20 which seems to have gone by the name of the 16th Replacement Control=20 Depot.  A few days there preceded the trip to the 1st Replacement = and=20 Training Squadron (B) at Bovingdon.  It would seem that the latter = place=20 had a number of designations in use at different times.
        = Incidentally,=20 the folks at Stone's 70th Replacement Depot took a bunch of us happy = returnees=20 by truck to a nearby but deserted railway station late on a January = night=20 so we could stand around in the snow and cold for several hours waiting = for a=20 train to take us to the "Edmund B. Alexander" troop ship waiting at=20 Southampton.  Several individuals were treated for frostbite after = boarding=20 the ship.
        = As to the=20 subject of airfields in Britain, there were about a dozen books = published in the=20 1980s by Patrick Stephens Ltd. under the overall title of "Action = Stations" that=20 contain about as much detailed information concerning the fields as one = could=20 possibly want.
 
       =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20         John I. Jenkins
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2E357.BBF8CD60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 13:16:59 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 08:16:59 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lost Squadron In-Reply-To: <00a901c2e38c$cf863180$7f970243@default> Message-ID: > The "Lost Squadron" film I refer to is the age-old (1933?) chestnut featuring Richard Dix and others, dealing with returning heroes and their difficulties in finding themselves after WWI. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 17:17:41 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:17:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030306171741.14662.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Brian, I've got War Manual but haven't seen the section on the buildings. Will check it out tonight. Thanks! Kevin --- Brian McGuire wrote: --------------------------------- Kevin - Someone else mentioned the Airfields book. I mentioned the Manual, one of what I call Freeman's Big Four. (Airfields, Diary, War Manual, Warpaint). In the War Manual Part 3 is entitled Installations, and there is some good poop here. He covers development of 8AF bases, and has some photos and text on airfield buildings. Good luck, Kevin! Brian S. McGuire>From: Kevin Pearson >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:17:21 -0800 (PST) > >I must have a different Airfields book than you. Mine >has nothing on buildings, but does have just a page or >two about the design of the bases - hardstands, runway >length, etc. >Kevin > >--- Brian McGuire wrote: > >--------------------------------- > >Kevin - > >Do you have Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual? >Has a chapter on airfield buildings. > >Cheers, mate. >Brian S. McGuire>From: Kevin Pearson >Reply-To: >303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Airfield Architecture > >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:05:06 -0800 (PST) > >Does >anyone know of a good book or books that explains > >airfield architecture, especially the identification > >of the various buildings? I have hundreds of photos > >from the old bases, and would like to learn more >about >what these old buildings were. Some buildings >are >tall and square (parachute building or gunnery > >training) and are long and narrow. > >Any help >appreciated! Thanks! >Kevin > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, >calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > >--------------------------------- >Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan >Online > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 17:26:43 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Brian McGuire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030306172643.5872.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> Brian: Thanks for all the information!! I don't receive Framlingham Times, but I am writing the Heritage Museum to see if I can get a copy of the article you reference. I got a reply to my airfield architecture question listing three books, but all are out of print. Do you have any suggestions on how I might obtain them - any source in the UK you found helpful? 1. Graham Buchan Innes, 1995 British Airfield Buildings of the Second World War. Midland Publishing Limited. 2. Paul Francis, 1996 British Military Airfield Architecture. Patrick Stephens Limited. 3. Steve Willis & Barry Holliss, 1990 Military Airfields in the British Isles 1939-1945 (Omnibus Edition) Enthusiasts Publications. Thanks for the help with these questions! Much appreciated! Kevin Graham Buchan Innes, 1995 British Airfield Buildings of the Second World War. Midland Publishing Limited. Paul Francis, 1996 British Military Airfield Architecture. Patrick Stephens Limited. Steve Willis & Barry Holliss, 1990 Military Airfields in the British Isles 1939-1945 (Omnibus Edition) Enthusiasts Publications. --- Brian McGuire wrote: --------------------------------- Kevin - I even have a folder full of 12 O'Clock High in my 4 file cabinets of 8AF newsletters, correspondence, photos, etc. Several excellent sources. First, try the book "Yanks Over Europe, American Fluyers in Workd War II, by Jerome Klinkowitz (if you don't have it yet, GET IT. A MUST for 8AF aficionados. Pages73-75 covers some of the actual instances depicted in the book/movie. The Spring 2000 issue of the Mighty Eighth AF Heritage Museum had an article on the movie. A very complete article, well illustrated, appeared in the Sep 99 Aviation History, a fantastic magazine that I will forever subscribe to (lots of aviation art); this article was reproduced in the March 2000 (Issue 42) of Framlingham Times, which I would have suspected that you received. Another article appeared in teh Dec 99 Flight Journal, entitled Hollywood's Bomber Baron, the Screenpalys of Beirne Lay, jr.. I also have an article by Martin Bowman, a friend of mine from England who has done a few books on the 8th, entlted "Return to Archbury," but I can't find where I got it!. I will send Martin an e-mail and find out. In my last e-mail I mentioned Freeman's big four, and listed the Warpaint book by accident; it should have been "The Mighty Eighth," of which my copy is dogeared. Happy reading. Brian S. McGuire>From: Kevin Pearson >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "12 ' 0 Clock High"/Brian McGuire >Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:05:27 -0800 (PST) > >Brian: That is facinating, Brian, and the first time >I have ever heard that. What do they say in England, >"Brilliant." It makes sense and I appreciate knowing >that. I've done some research on the 306th and didn't >realize they had such long and distinguished track >record in the ETO. Not that I am doubting you, but >what is your source of this information? Is it in a >book somewhere? I have long been intrigued with 12 >O'Clock High and would like to know more about it. > >As always, Brian, it is great hearing from you! >(Do you miss the English beer yet?) >Kevin > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------- Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 17:45:06 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Travel and airfields/John Jenkins In-Reply-To: <001001c2e392$8cf9b2a0$690fa641@j3367> Message-ID: <20030306174506.67714.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com> Action Stations! That is the series of books I saw when I was in England. Thank you very much for the information! Kevin --- "John I. Jenkins" wrote: > Having once been a dutiful soul who kept a > copy of all orders received, I have at hand the set > of papers directing our crew's travel by B-17 > 43-38093 from Kearney to the UK in July of 1944. > After getting from Kearney to Bangor, we appeared to > come under the jurisdiction of the North Atlantic > Wing of the ATC, and got to spend a week or so at > Gander before departing for Nutts Corner, Northern > Ireland. It would appear, from the several > narratives that appeared in this forum, that many > possible routes led to Molesworth. > I do not recall anyone mentioning stopping > at the garden spot of Stone, England, part of which > seems to have gone by the name of the 16th > Replacement Control Depot. A few days there > preceded the trip to the 1st Replacement and > Training Squadron (B) at Bovingdon. It would seem > that the latter place had a number of designations > in use at different times. > Incidentally, the folks at Stone's 70th > Replacement Depot took a bunch of us happy returnees > by truck to a nearby but deserted railway station > late on a January night so we could stand around in > the snow and cold for several hours waiting for a > train to take us to the "Edmund B. Alexander" troop > ship waiting at Southampton. Several individuals > were treated for frostbite after boarding the ship. > As to the subject of airfields in Britain, > there were about a dozen books published in the > 1980s by Patrick Stephens Ltd. under the overall > title of "Action Stations" that contain about as > much detailed information concerning the fields as > one could possibly want. > > > John I. Jenkins > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 18:03:05 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:03:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, "12 ' 0 Clock High" Message-ID: <1e2.3c3adb9.2b98e759@aol.com> jack rencher, you are a credit to your nation and especially in your contributions to this site. B R A V O ! ! ! ! ! > spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 18:14:17 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:14:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kingman at Christmas.... Message-ID: <3c.2cdbdc15.2b98e9f9@aol.com> bob hand. kingman?? i remember sleeping inside my mattress cover tightened about my head to eliminate the blowing sand as i slept,especially because doors to barracks did not close completely, also the theatre's system of air conditioning. they had large exhaust fans high on the sides of structur ,then had water flowing over brushe to create coolness. it was so hot in there you had to periodically rise in your seat to get breath of air. another , an order came down that each of us crews had to fire another 1000 rounds on the firing range ,even after we had done the regular scheduled program required before we shipped out. in our group, an airman about 4 gun mounts to my right, held his firing constant without let up. the mounting stud that held the machine gun to the upright firing post ,crystallized or fractured in some cause and the gun held during the collapse caused 4 deaths by those shells. worst event of my training innstates. spec campen. oh! as to those further rouds required to be fired, a govt case and endictment was had against munitions manufacturers of west va. location occurred in later years, From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 6 18:50:11 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:50:11 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 12 0' Clock High Message-ID: If free men are going to live on this planet they must be prepared to=20 fight and even die to maintain that freedom. =20 Best Wishes, Jack Rencher Well Stated Jack! And Thank you for standing up when the chips were = down. Yes Hollywood's purpose is to 'entertain and then reap the financial = benefits' from those buying a ticket or DVD. War is ugly business, if your up in = the=20 sky, down in the mud or on the ocean blue. I head up the 8th Air Force Historical Society here in Washington State = and have been blessed with overseeing almost 400 8th AF veterans. As a = result I have two objectives (1) Honor the 8th AF veteran,(2) Honor = those who died and Educate the younger generation what the 8th AF did = during WWII. Thus I read as much history on the 8th that I can and watch documentaries. While 12 o'clock High should not be considered a = documentary it does tell a story written by veterans who were there. Yes the producer = and director are going to put their spin on it.=20 Most of the veterans in the chapter like 12 OCH, if I have a young lad = who shows interest in the air war over the ETO I suggest to him that he check out = Roger Freeman's books from the library and/or check out the 1943 "Memphis Belle" movie = or 12 OCH. I do discourage the 1989 Memphis Belle movie. Part of the reason I = started reading 8th AF history was from watching the TV series 12 O'clock High in the mid = 1960's. That and meeting older gentleman who served like yourself filled in the = blanks with reality of what happened. Again, Thanks to you Jack and all of the veteran on 303rd talk. I very much appreciate what you sacrificed for my freedoms. Greg Pierce E-mail gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 7 15:23:14 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:23:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paper Models Message-ID: <000501c2e4bd$79911ba0$460c6ed8@webshark.com> I founf this model of an early B-17, and thought that some of Y'all might like to try it. You will need a free version of the adobe reader that you can down load from www.adobe.com but it is all FREE. http://www.papermodelclub.com/b17.pdf These models were popular during the war when things were scarce. Did any one build them? Tom From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 8 20:28:09 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:28:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gun Removal Message-ID: <000c01c2e5b1$3f25a900$48bb9ace@mjpmtman> Hi Gang!-- I have been pondering the remark some one made about gun removal [ radio room??] late in the war. When I flew Continental Express I don't recall any cheek guns in the nose where I rode. Were they there?--- OR removed for that "mission" or prior? Would the chin turret have replaced them? It seems to me that with the bombardier on the sight the absence of the cheek guns would leave a "hole" in the defense. With their limited degree of firing field, how affective were they?--------------Maurice From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 8 22:55:55 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:55:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gun Removal In-Reply-To: <000c01c2e5b1$3f25a900$48bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <20030308225555.35381.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Maurice, The cheek and radio guns were gone when I flew my first on February 15, 1945....Bill Runnels,Bombardier --- Maurice Paulk wrote: > Hi Gang!-- I have been pondering the remark some one > made about > gun removal [ radio room??] late in the war. When I > flew Continental > Express I don't recall any cheek guns in the nose > where I rode. Were > they there?--- OR removed for that "mission" or > prior? Would the > chin turret have replaced them? It seems to me that > with the bombardier > on the sight the absence of the cheek guns would > leave a "hole" in the > defense. With their limited degree of firing field, > how affective > were they?--------------Maurice > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 9 00:04:16 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:04:16 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cheek Guns Message-ID: <004101c2e5cf$6cd9cfc0$02827f18@we1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2E58C.5E51DA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maurice: The B-17 F we flew over to England on the southern route in March = 1943 we had the cheek guns in the nose. The B-17 F's we started flying = missions with in May 1943 already had the twin .50's mounted in the nose = and the cheek guns removed. After our 4th mission the radio guns were = also removed. Bob Rettinhouse. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2E58C.5E51DA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maurice:
   The B-17 F we flew over to = England on=20 the southern route in March 1943 we had the cheek guns in the nose. = The=20 B-17 F's we started flying missions with in May 1943 already had the = twin .50's=20 mounted in the nose and the cheek guns removed. After our 4th mission = the radio=20 guns were also=20 removed.           = ; Bob=20 Rettinhouse.
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2E58C.5E51DA80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 11 22:16:47 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:16:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tower Message-ID: <3E6DFDDF.23566.2DBB77@localhost> We just got some scans of the Molesworth Tower. They're the best photos I've seen. Take a look here: http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-molesworthtower.html You can see the aircraft ready to take off. One is rolling down the runway on the second photo. Also, we just got some new photos of the Thunderbird crash: http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/p-crash.html -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 11 23:18:27 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:18:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tower In-Reply-To: <3E6DFDDF.23566.2DBB77@localhost> Message-ID: <20030311231827.92945.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Whoever sends Gary these pictures, my hat is off to you! These pictures are wonderful! Two questions: The pictures of the Tower - are they looking to the south west? And the Thunderbird pics - did she come to rest almost in front of the Tower? Given the hangar in the background, the Tower looks like it should be very close to the resting place of Thunderbird. Kevin --- Gary Moncur wrote: > We just got some scans of the Molesworth Tower. > They're the > best photos I've seen. Take a look here: > http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-molesworthtower.html > You can see the aircraft ready to take off. One is > rolling > down the runway on the second photo. > > Also, we just got some new photos of the Thunderbird > crash: > http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/p-crash.html > > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) > Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 00:22:28 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:22:28 EST Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] Gun Removal Message-ID: <140.caa3343.2b9fd7c4@aol.com> --part1_140.caa3343.2b9fd7c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_140.caa3343.2b9fd7c4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Jprencher@aol.com Full-name: Jprencher Message-ID: <1cf.4a9ad40.2b9c37c9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:23:05 EST Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Gun Removal To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Maurice, The two cheek guns in the nose, The gun in the top of the radio room and the two waist guns were single flexible guns. They had a flexible mounting to the plane near the center of the gun. If the gunner wanted to raise the muzzle of these guns he had the push down on gun butt (handle) in the cockpit. These guns to be honest were ineffective. It was very hard to hit anything with them. for example. We were usually flying about 250 feet per second. If we were attacked from say 3 O'clock the right waist gunner would have to lead his target the length of a football field more or less as he approached our B17 and this would be a rapidly changing lead as the target fighter got closer and was coming from a slightly different angle. The other flexible guns would have more or less the same handicap. The radio room gun even worse as he would be shooting mostly up mostly. After mid 1944 many crews finished their 35 missions without the gunners ever firing a shot at enemy fighters. Really those flexible guns were often not worth manning and hauling around after mid 1944. My opinion only The chin turret and tail guns were very effective as most of their targets were either quite in front of our birds our nearly directly behind us so correct lead was not near so much or maybe none at all. Also when they fired there were two guns so they threw twice as much lead. Be aware, The only bombardier leaning over his bombsight was the lead and that was just on the bomb run. All the others were free to use their chin turrets on the late Fs snd Gs. It just took them one half a second to flip their intervolmeter on when the lead started his bomb drop. The navigator could use the cheek guns in the nose if his bird still had them. I don't want to hurt any Navigators feelings but I doubt if they shot down many more 190s than us copilots did. The top turret and Ball were the ones that kept us alive. They computed the lead and had two guns each to throw lead. and they covered a BIG area. And now you know. It's up to you to believe, I can't help you here, hear. or there if you'd rather. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher --part1_140.caa3343.2b9fd7c4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 00:55:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:55:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tower In-Reply-To: <20030311231827.92945.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3E6DFDDF.23566.2DBB77@localhost> Message-ID: <3E6E2314.2275.BF179D@localhost> Kev, Someone else will have to answer the questions. The photos both recently sold on eBay to different buyers. Both men graciously sent me the scans. They are all from the estate of 303rd photographer Milton Cantor. The guy who bought the collection is selling about 1000 photos a few at a time. Each week on Saturday and Sunday new photos are added. Search eBay for 303rd and you'll see what is there now. > Whoever sends Gary these pictures, my hat is off to > you! These pictures are wonderful! Two questions: > > The pictures of the Tower - are they looking to the > south west? > > And the Thunderbird pics - did she come to rest almost > in front of the Tower? Given the hangar in the > background, the Tower looks like it should be very > close to the resting place of Thunderbird. > Kevin > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > We just got some scans of the Molesworth Tower. > > They're the > > best photos I've seen. Take a look here: > > http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-molesworthtower.html > > You can see the aircraft ready to take off. One is > > rolling > > down the runway on the second photo. > > > > Also, we just got some new photos of the Thunderbird > > crash: > > http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/p-crash.html > > > > > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) > > Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 02:16:45 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:16:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? Message-ID: <3E6E361D.32272.10973D8@localhost> Can any of you Molesworth vets (or non-vets) tell me what is going on in this photo? What is the tower shown? Thanks! http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-smoke-towers.jpg Regards to all, -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 02:29:17 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marvin) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:29:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoking.... Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2E7FC.1FBC3C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I watched "Tweve O'clock High" last night, noticed General Savage never = field stripped His cigarets before throughing the butt away....I was in = the Air Force from December 1954 through October 1958 and always field = stripped My smokes, even to the day I quit smoking in 1981....easy to = learn and hard to forget....It is a small thing, but noticable to = Me....Marvin Owings ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2E7FC.1FBC3C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I watched "Tweve O'clock High" last = night, noticed=20 General Savage never field stripped His cigarets before throughing the = butt=20 away....I was in the Air Force from December 1954 through October 1958 = and=20 always field stripped My smokes, even to the day I quit smoking in = 1981....easy=20 to learn and hard to forget....It is a small thing, but noticable to=20 Me....Marvin Owings
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2E7FC.1FBC3C80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 06:28:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:28:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? Message-ID: <37.35756fe1.2ba02d85@aol.com> Gary, This is only a guess. I do not know. The Germans often used smoke to hide potential targets as the bombers approached. I suppose the English did likewise. It would appear the little dark object at the upwind end of the smoke is a smoke generator maybe being tested, played with or maybe the bombers are coming and they are trying to hide the towers. The last one I would doubt or they would have used more than one. It will be interesting to see the right answers. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 06:38:50 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:38:50 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? Message-ID: <4f.2c512d61.2ba02ffa@aol.com> Gary, I do not recognize the towers. I suspect they are water towers radio transmitters, receivers. Maybe Gee H, radar or dummies. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 10:08:53 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:08:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tower looking Southwest Message-ID: <6f.365c3364.2ba06135@aol.com> Kevin: If my memory serves me correctly you are correct. I think the photographer would be looking basically Southwest. Maybe just a little bit South of Southwest. Striking pictures. I wonder what he was standing on? Best Wishes in all your ventures, Jack, The turned around copilot. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 17:06:54 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:06:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? In-Reply-To: <4f.2c512d61.2ba02ffa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030312170654.16280.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com> I believe the twin towers in the background are water towers. I've seen similar towers at other bases like Framlingham and Snetterton Heath, and was told they were water towers. But I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 17:15:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:15:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing In-Reply-To: <4f.2c512d61.2ba02ffa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030312171518.27355.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> When you returned to base, I believe your elements and squadrons were spread out, especially in cloudy conditions. Did you make a long final, or did you make a circuit around the base first? In one of the opening scenes in 12 O'Clock High, it shows a Fort turning a very (or what seems like a very) steep base onto a very short final. Also, if your ship was shot up and had no landing gear, you'd set down in the grass, right, off the runway? Were you instructed on where to land in these situations, or was it pilot's choice? Thanks!! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 17:22:15 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:22:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on the "Water Tower" In-Reply-To: <3E6E361D.32272.10973D8@localhost> Message-ID: <20030312172215.12208.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> Did the types of buildings pictures in Gary's photo have running water? How about in Nissen Huts? Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 19:13:04 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:13:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on the "Water Tower" Message-ID: <63.19c2c45e.2ba0e0c0@aol.com> Kevin, I don't know about the Water in the buildings near the tower. I have no recollection of ever being in them. We did not have running water in the huts. We had a centrally located latrine that had showers toilets and basins I think the entire 358th shared it. There was one for the officers and one for the enlisted men. They sometimes (usually) had hot water. Sometimes too hot. We had electricity and a coke stove and enough coke ration to keep it warm for two days per week. Some of us took other steps to stay warm. Enough said. Best wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 19:48:55 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:48:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Short final. Message-ID: <1c9.686c7a9.2ba0e927@aol.com> Kevin, Crews and pilots were different. Some made longer finals than others. As far as our crew was concerned both when I was copilot or first pilot and we had no one in front us. we did not make a final at all unless we came straight in. We would make a steep 180 degree turn off the downwind and finish rolling out of the turn just as the left landing gear touched the runway. If we were number two behind someone who was turning base for a 2 or 3 mile final we would be landed and parked by the time he was on a short final. You could very well have seen one of our landings in 12 O'clock High. It looked just like us. It was really very rare when B-17s had a belly landing. With our electric gear and hand cranks to lower the gear it was rare a good crew could not get at least one gear down. Personally if I had to make a gear up landing I would talk it over with engineering if I had time. If not I would probably rather land it on the grass and dead stick with every thing shut off on a long final when I was sure I had the runway made without additional power. Especially if I had leaking fuel tanks. If I had an old war weary bird that had already had a couple of wing changes, no wounded aboard I would consider bailing the crew out over the field, head it for the North pole on auto pilot, bid it farewell and bail out myself. We landed with a flat tire a couple of times and had a gear collapse once, but never ever even came close to having to belly one in Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 12 22:34:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:34:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Question II In-Reply-To: <1c9.686c7a9.2ba0e927@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030312223449.66183.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> (Gary: I figured out my e-mail problem.) In the second Memphis Belle, in one of the opening scenes it show a Fort coming in with only one landing gear down. Everyone makes a big deal about how "He's only got one wheel down." Which would be better - landing with one wheel down or to belly land with gear up? Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 01:07:43 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:07:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Question II Message-ID: <1e.c6d591e.2ba133df@aol.com> Kevin, My opinion only, I would much rather land on one gear and the tail wheel than to belly one in with both gears up. If done carefully and skillfully one could be down to 45 to 50 MPH when the gear up wing touched. I always thought if I ever had to do this which I did not. I would start a turn using rudder and engines into the up gear when I could no longer hold the wing up with aileron and I think I could get it down to 10 to 20 MPH or maybe a bit slower before the wing touched. I would have loved to tried it but I couldn't waste a good airplane just experimenting. I Admit I thought seriously about doing it with one of the many war wearies I took to Kingman Arizona. They just scraped them there anyway. I didn't as I always had a Sergeant engineer flying copilot and I didn't want to scare him. plus I didn't want an accident on my record even if it was on purpose With one gear down you got two props and a bit of wing tip damage. With both gears up you got 4 props, the belly and ball and lots of sparks which could very likely start a fire. If you had that much damage you no doubt had some fuel leaks in spite of the self sealing tanks. Really, When you got a prop you probably got an engine and Turbo also. Maybe not in the war but surely in civilian life. You see in the war we were expendable so I don't know how fussy they were about engines that had had a sudden stop. Maybe I knew once and have forgotten. Sorry I talk so much. I guess if you keep asking questions, I'll keep answering until I pass on or Gary shuts me off. I'm very opinionated Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 01:38:07 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:38:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Confess: In-Reply-To: <63.19c2c45e.2ba0e0c0@aol.com> Message-ID: >OK, OK, all you guys who were present at the Now Famous Coke Raid own up or there'll be holy heck to pay. Confess or else, Uncle Jack. Lordy that was one fun evening, for sure. The thing about coke was that you could burn it until there was nothing left. So it paid to go scavaging in burnt-out ashpiles for any solid mass, because it was coke and it would burn. Better than (getting caught) burning the support timbers of the barracks. After all, a body had to maintain minimum warmth. I learned this stoking the furnace of the Apt. where I lived for a time in Brooklyn. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 01:55:41 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:55:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Question II In-Reply-To: <1e.c6d591e.2ba133df@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030313015541.50072.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Jack: Don't ever stop giving us your opinions - you and the others are a wealth of information for us youngsters!!!! In the second Memphis Belle, they made it sound like having one gear down and locked was a definite trip to the morgue for the crew. I should have known..... What you say makes sense to me now - never thought about saving two props and engines. A belly landing just seemed more "symetrical" to me - but the airspeed issue is also a very good point. Keep your comments coming! We all appreciate you sharing your experiences with us!! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 01:58:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:58:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Confess: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313015818.78755.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> Bob: Are you suggesting "midnight requisitions?" You guys must have been might cold all the time. How did you keep warm? Did you spend a lot of time away from your sleeping quarters? Wear a lot of cloths? Sleep with your electrically heated flight suit? Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 02:51:24 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:51:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tower looking Southwest Message-ID:

It seems like the only way he could have taken the tower pictures would be from atop the J-hangar. The angle is right, as well as the height.

Brian S. McGuire
>From: Jprencher@aol.com
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tower looking Southwest
>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:08:53 EST
>
>Kevin:
> If my memory serves me correctly you are correct. I think the
>photographer would be looking basically Southwest. Maybe just a little bit
>South of Southwest.
> Striking pictures. I wonder what he was standing on?
> Best Wishes in all your ventures,
> Jack, The turned around copilot.

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 03:28:55 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:28:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landings Message-ID: <003801c2e910$af731aa0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C2E8DE.630BD9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May a navigator make a comment about landing 1. I preferred a wheels down landing on the sold runway as against a = nose full of freshly plowe sod i n the nose compartment. I remember in fair weather when planes came back in groups they would = enter a pattern and peel off in order and land Then at several occassions we returned in bad weather and most pilots = considered themselves alone and not in formation--the piolots may have = been in radio contact with others in the area and I'm sure with the = tower--I was busy on the GEE box plotting the position and picking one = line to fly along about a mile out from the end of the runway(this could = be done very nicely--if the GEE box was working properly)--we usually = came in from the ENE and at the proper time of the crossing of the GEE = plot lines I would give Owen the runway heading and he would make a = right turn into the heading and be on a descent and I would rush to = nose window or the Togglier or bobmbadier look for appearance end of the = runway and shout out when we saw it=20 This worked on many occassions, except for 12/24/44 when we had to take = off for western England and clearer skies. LeRoy Christenson, Navigator 359th ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C2E8DE.630BD9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May a navigator  make a comment = about=20 landing
1. I preferred a wheels down landing on = the sold=20 runway as against a nose full of freshly plowe sod i n the nose=20 compartment.
I remember  in fair weather when = planes came=20 back in groups they would enter a pattern and peel off in order and=20 land
Then at several occassions we returned = in bad=20 weather and most pilots considered themselves alone and not in = formation--the=20 piolots may have been in radio contact with others in the area and I'm = sure with=20 the tower--I was busy on the  GEE box plotting the position and = picking one=20 line to fly along about a mile out from the end of the runway(this could = be done=20 very nicely--if the GEE box was working properly)--we usually came in = from the=20 ENE and at the proper time of the crossing of the GEE plot lines I would = give=20 Owen the runway heading  and he would make a right turn into = the=20 heading and be  on a descent and I would rush to nose window or the = Togglier or bobmbadier look for appearance end of the runway = and shout=20 out when we saw it
This worked on many occassions, except = for 12/24/44=20 when we had to take off for western England and clearer = skies.
LeRoy Christenson, Navigator=20 359th 
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C2E8DE.630BD9E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 06:17:17 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:17:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Requested confession Message-ID: <1d2.4fdb899.2ba17c6d@aol.com> Kevin, I took my 45 and shot a hole in our coke stove and in the wall of our hut next to the floor. Then I got tubing, valves and an oxygen bottle from the junk yard and put the bottle on the side of our hut. I ran the tubing into the stove from the oxygen bottle and filled the oxygen bottle with used engine oil (We had many barrels of it) When the coke was burning good and hot I would open the valve so the thick oil could run in on the burning coke. It worked perfectly and we have heat all week long until the brass made us take it down after a month or two. SO We went back to our weekly raids through the hole in the coke storage yard with our sacks while our guard whistled "America the Beautiful" if someone came by. Be aware, there was no street lights, There was a war on you know, We did. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 15:42:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Requested confession In-Reply-To: <1d2.4fdb899.2ba17c6d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E706096.17475.D24D07@localhost> > Kevin, > I took my 45 and shot a hole in our coke stove and in the wall of > our > hut next to the floor. Then I got tubing, valves and an oxygen bottle > from the junk yard and put the bottle on the side of our hut. I ran > the tubing into the stove from the oxygen bottle and filled the oxygen > bottle with used engine oil (We had many barrels of it) When the coke > was burning good and hot I would open the valve so the thick oil could > run in on the burning coke. It worked perfectly and we have heat all > week long until the brass made us take it down after a month or two. > SO My father never talked about the war. Only thing he ever talked about was the trip home through Greenland, and the COLD in the winter of 44/45 . Since I was a chemist, he asked me to explain something that people were doing in his hut, but I couldn't. When I read the above, I wonder if the contraption you describe might not be related. What my father used to describe (long time ago), was that he said one of the pilots was a chemical engineer, and had rigged up some sort of "cracking" process to break wax down into more volatile hydrocarbons. What he described was a system where the "wax" was heated above the stove, and dispensed drop by drop with a valve. However the confusing part, was that he said that there was a second valve, which dropped WATER onto the stove, drop by drop. He had thought that the water was somehow involved in the cracking process, but I could never come up with any satisfactory explanation for what was done. He did say that whatever was involved, that it worked. After reading the above, I wonder if perhaps the wax he talked about might have been the used oil. I'm still somewhat at a loss for the reason for the water, unless it was simply for increasing the humidity in the room. I asked this question once before, about 2 years ago, and someone did say that there WAS a supply of wax around, so maybe it wasn't the oil, but the valving contraption you describe sure sounds similar to what he described. Anyway, interesting. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 17:15:56 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:15:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Coke Stove In-Reply-To: <1d2.4fdb899.2ba17c6d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030313171556.48927.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Jack: That is fascinating! I have heard others used a similar methodology for using the spent engine oil. Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Why did the brass make you take your oil burning contraption down? Safety? I've burned fireplace logs made from recycled paper and used engine oil and the things stink to high heaven. Being one from the non-coal burning generation, how did you get the coke on fire? I remember my grandaddy stoking the coal stove on the farm and taking out the klinkers (sp), usually accompanied by words I had never heard before, but the fire never went out. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 13 21:15:48 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:15:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #870 - 14 msgs References: <20030313073323.C1BFC5385F@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <002b01c2e9a5$b92c0260$0000a398@SHANK> Re: The second Memphis Belle picture. The scene depicting the cranking down of the wheel was one of the most Hollywoodish pieces of garbage in the movie. The wheel went down into the wind so hardly any cranking was necessary unless you wanted to help it a little. Why they used the name Memphis Belle for the movie is a mystery I never solved. Also, with the thousands of guys around who could have helped with the authenticity of the movie, this movie was a terrible waste with the one possible exception of some of the photography. It would have been nice to have all that sunshine for take-offs. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:33 AM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #870 - 14 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Smoke ?? (Jprencher@aol.com) > 2. Re: Smoke ?? (Jprencher@aol.com) > 3. Re: Tower looking Southwest (Jprencher@aol.com) > 4. Re: Smoke ?? (Kevin Pearson) > 5. Re: Landing (Kevin Pearson) > 6. Re: More on the "Water Tower" (Kevin Pearson) > 7. Re: More on the "Water Tower" (Jprencher@aol.com) > 8. Re: Landing Short final. (Jprencher@aol.com) > 9. Re: Landing Question II (Kevin Pearson) > 10. Re: Landing Question II (Jprencher@aol.com) > 11. Re: Confess: (Bob Hand) > 12. Re: Landing Question II (Kevin Pearson) > 13. Re: Re: Confess: (Kevin Pearson) > 14. Re: Tower looking Southwest (Brian McGuire) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:28:21 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Gary, > This is only a guess. I do not know. The Germans often used smoke to > hide potential targets as the bombers approached. I suppose the English did > likewise. It would appear the little dark object at the upwind end of the > smoke is a smoke generator maybe being tested, played with or maybe the > bombers are coming and they are trying to hide the towers. The last one I > would doubt or they would have used more than one. It will be interesting to > see the right answers. > Best Wishes, > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:38:50 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Gary, > I do not recognize the towers. I suspect they are water towers radio > transmitters, receivers. Maybe Gee H, radar or dummies. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:08:53 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tower looking Southwest > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin: > If my memory serves me correctly you are correct. I think the > photographer would be looking basically Southwest. Maybe just a little bit > South of Southwest. > Striking pictures. I wonder what he was standing on? > Best Wishes in all your ventures, > Jack, The turned around copilot. > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:06:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Kevin Pearson > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Smoke ?? > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I believe the twin towers in the background are water > towers. I've seen similar towers at other bases like > Framlingham and Snetterton Heath, and was told they > were water towers. But I could be wrong - wouldn't be > the first time! > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:15:18 -0800 (PST) > From: Kevin Pearson > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Landing > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > When you returned to base, I believe your elements and > squadrons were spread out, especially in cloudy > conditions. Did you make a long final, or did you > make a circuit around the base first? In one of the > opening scenes in 12 O'Clock High, it shows a Fort > turning a very (or what seems like a very) steep base > onto a very short final. > > Also, if your ship was shot up and had no landing > gear, you'd set down in the grass, right, off the > runway? Were you instructed on where to land in these > situations, or was it pilot's choice? > > Thanks!! > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:22:15 -0800 (PST) > From: Kevin Pearson > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] More on the "Water Tower" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Did the types of buildings pictures in Gary's photo > have running water? How about in Nissen Huts? > > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:13:04 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] More on the "Water Tower" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin, > I don't know about the Water in the buildings near the tower. I have no > recollection of ever being in them. We did not have running water in the > huts. We had a centrally located latrine that had showers toilets and basins > I think the entire 358th shared it. There was one for the officers and one > for the enlisted men. They sometimes > (usually) had hot water. Sometimes too hot. We had electricity and a coke > stove and enough coke ration to keep it warm for two days per week. Some of > us took other steps to stay warm. Enough said. > Best wishes, > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:48:55 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Landing Short final. > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: MJMFORLOW@aol.com, Coxbije@aol.com, RGrish20@aol.com, > wheller@attglobal.net > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin, > Crews and pilots were different. Some made longer finals than others. > As far as our crew was concerned both when I was copilot or first pilot and > we had no one in front us. we did not make a final at all unless we came > straight in. We would make a steep 180 degree turn off the downwind and > finish rolling out of the turn just as the left landing gear touched the > runway. If we were number two behind someone who was turning base for a 2 or > 3 mile final we would be landed and parked by the time he was on a short > final. You could very well have seen one of our landings in 12 O'clock High. > It looked just like us. > > It was really very rare when B-17s had a belly landing. With our > electric gear and hand cranks to lower the gear it was rare a good crew could > not get at least one gear down. Personally if I had to make a gear up > landing I would talk it over with engineering if I had time. If not I would > probably rather land it on the grass and dead stick with every thing shut off > on a long final when I was sure I had the runway made without additional > power. Especially if I had leaking fuel tanks. If I had an old war weary bird > that had already had a couple of wing changes, no wounded aboard I would > consider bailing the crew out over the field, head it for the North pole on > auto pilot, bid it farewell and bail out myself. We landed with a flat tire > a couple of times and had a gear collapse once, but never ever even came > close to having to belly one in > Best Wishes, > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:34:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Kevin Pearson > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Landing Question II > T