From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- >From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 17:09:26 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:09:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. = However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist = gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need.=20 I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. Fory Kuykendall's RO ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
During stateside traing there were two = waist=20 gunners assigned to a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd = &=20 360th sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man power=20 shortage.
 
Therefore, our waist gunner manned = both sides=20 depending on need.
 
I presume it was this way on all = crews, at least=20 from June 1945 on.
 
Fory
Kuykendall's = RO
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 17:47:25 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <20030102174725.74406.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Hey gang and Happy New Year! I am reading a book titled "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox" by Alexander McFee. I know many of you were on this mission and I was curious as to your thoughts about the mission. McFee interviews many of the pilots and crew, both RAF and AAF, that flew this mission, and many said that at briefing they felt something just wasn't right about the mission, even those who knew nothing about Dresden. My question is, "What do you recall from briefing that day and did you have any feelings of the mission being strange or unwarranted?" The book is poorly written from an English and grammatical sense, but the facts presented are quite interesting, especially the first hand accounts of those in the air and on the ground. I do recommend this book if you haven't already read it as it was released in 1981, I believe. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 19:16:25 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:16:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: <3DF233CE.25532.25BBFBC@localhost> Message-ID: > Bob Hand, > Thanks for the photos of your A-2 Jacket. I have it on the > page now. Do any of you have A-2 jackets we can show? > http://www.303rdbga.com/a2.html > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a question regarding the A-2s...Mine has a red triangle with a white inset and black "C"...unfortunately the white has flaked off, making it hard to see the "C". Would you advise revitalizing the image by repainting the white inset? Or is the jacket worth more as it is? Please refer to the picture amongst the others. Many thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 20:46:50 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:46:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030102204650.15144.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com> Bob: Regarding your A-2 and the flaked off white C. It all depends on what you want to do with the jacket. If you want to preserve it for historical purposes, don't touch it. Museums and even collectors wouldn't want the coat if it had been "touched up." However, if you want to wear the hacket, hand it down you your kin and keep it in the family, then by all means touch it up. But keep in mind the value will be greatly reduced if you touch it up. My A-2 from Eastman Leather arrived two weeks ago and was just too tight for comfort even though it was a size 50, the largest size they make. I have been trying to get them to consider custom making me a larger size, but the guy I have to work with is in New York, the US Distributor, and he is not being cooperative. I will keep you posted. Best wishes for the New Year Bob! I do like the post of your jacket on Gary's website! --- Bob Hand wrote: > > Bob Hand, > > Thanks for the photos of your A-2 Jacket. I have > it on the > > page now. Do any of you have A-2 jackets we can > show? > > http://www.303rdbga.com/a2.html > > > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) > Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a > question regarding the A-2s...Mine > has a red triangle with a white inset and black > "C"...unfortunately the white > has flaked off, making it hard to see the "C". > Would you advise revitalizing > the image by repainting the white inset? Or is the > jacket worth more as it is? > Please refer to the picture amongst the others. > Many thanks and Cheers, Bob > Hand > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 22:15:00 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:15:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: References: <3DF233CE.25532.25BBFBC@localhost> Message-ID: <3E145774.17752.1DC97BE@localhost> Bob, I agree completely with Kevin's response. If you're talking dollars, the untouched, authentic jackets are worth much more. Take a look at the ones that sell on eBay. My jacket is from Col Clyde Bradley at Bradley Associates. It has the Cooper label. I really like it and wear it most everywhere I go now. > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a question regarding > >the A-2s...Mine > has a red triangle with a white inset and black > "C"...unfortunately the white has flaked off, making it hard to > see the "C". Would you advise revitalizing the image by > repainting the white inset? Or is the jacket worth more as it > is? Please refer to the picture amongst the others. Many thanks > and Cheers, Bob Hand -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 22:21:53 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:21:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners In-Reply-To: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> Message-ID: <3E145911.11496.1E2E77B@localhost> We have many crew photos taken during the US training with ten men, who ended up with eight or nine as the waist gunner positions were eliminated. The combat crews went from 10 to 9 to 8 men late in the war. I don't know the dates the reduction in crew size took place, but our historian Harry Gobrecht might. Also, some gunners traded places on the crews. On my dad's crew, his tail gunner on the loading lists actually flew as a waist gunner on 26 of their 28 missions. One of the official waist gunners manned the tail guns on those missions. > During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to > a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th > sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man > power shortage. > > Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. > > > I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 > on. > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 23:37:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:37:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners References: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> Message-ID: <3E14CD57.5A77CFAC@attglobal.net> --------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent. Fory Barton wrote: > During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. > However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist > gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, > our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. I presume it was > this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. ForyKuykendall's RO --------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent.
 
 

Fory Barton wrote:

During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. ForyKuykendall's RO
--------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 23:41:23 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:41:23 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <20030102174725.74406.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> I was on, and led, some Dresden missions. I had NO feelings whatsoever except that this was war and if the Axis did not STOP it, we would MAKE THEM STOP IT, and we DID! Each time I bombed Dresden I was conscious of the fact that I had Aunts, Uncles and Cousins down in the city. Machts nichts! WE WERE AT WAR, or don't some of you remember that? Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hey gang and Happy New Year! I am reading a book > titled "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox" by > Alexander McFee. I know many of you were on this > mission and I was curious as to your thoughts about > the mission. McFee interviews many of the pilots and > crew, both RAF and AAF, that flew this mission, and > many said that at briefing they felt something just > wasn't right about the mission, even those who knew > nothing about Dresden. My question is, "What do you > recall from briefing that day and did you have any > feelings of the mission being strange or unwarranted?" > > The book is poorly written from an English and > grammatical sense, but the facts presented are quite > interesting, especially the first hand accounts of > those in the air and on the ground. I do recommend > this book if you haven't already read it as it was > released in 1981, I believe. > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 01:28:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:28:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] VIEW INTO THE PAST Message-ID: <000601c2b2c7$99965f00$69bb9ace@mjpmtman> It has taken me this long to read the v-mails that I wrote to my mother - she was a saver! 89 in number. The first one Oct. 15,'42 and the last one June !!, '45. [we hit the base on Oct 8 '42 and I flew out on June 11, '45].Some one on the forum once said that our memories get a little befuddled with age. I read things I had forgotten or didn't even remember. Sunday Dec 20, '42 -- Breakfast, Bacon, Powdered whole eggs made into sort of omelet - oatmeal or cream of wheat occasionally - strong coffee & grapefruit juice & once in a while jelly.. Dinner{today] - roast beef - tomato & rice - succotash - & bread pudding, Unusual not soup today - pretty good soup too. V-mail blanks at premium - uaually get 8 sheets on pay day. Affetive Jan 18 - no packages unless written request signed by C.O. is presented at PO --- Feb 3 - on pass in Northampton, wslked the town & swam - nice indoor pool. Feb 6 - Nothing to be sent from the states that can be obtained over her. [???] Feb 18, they just finished shower and restroom near barracks.[site #1] Boy am I being re-educated.- I don't remember roast beef this early. Swimming pool? Did Northampton Red Cross have a pool? The package restriction, I don't believe, affected us to much.. Does any of this ring a bell to anyone.[ I am recording selected excerpts from these letters to put with "My Life In The USAAF - 1942 to 1945".] May your Moccasins make happy tracks in many snows to come ---Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 03:16:04 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:16:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We arrived at Molesworth in mid Dec '44 and had gone thru phase training at Drew Field with only one waist gunner and we lost him when they took out both waist guns in mid March of '45, and we finished our tour with no waist gunner or waist guns. Bill Carter,BTG in 358th --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We arrived at Molesworth in mid Dec '44 and had gone thru phase training at Drew Field with only one waist gunner and we lost him when they took out both waist guns in mid March of '45, and we finished our tour with no waist gunner or waist guns.
Bill Carter,BTG in 358th --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 09:58:23 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:58:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked about Your mission. Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there were no factories in that region. The raid was done against the population only. There was no more production and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is not communistic propaganda, I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came from Dresden later on. That was the consequence of the choice of the bombardement. Do not think, the official numbers of victims are right! This was a real mistake and there are some misunderstandings even today, f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war against Iraq. But, Your work was really well, You bombed most precisely, as at no other place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary murder! Bernd -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 15:15:22 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: <3E145774.17752.1DC97BE@localhost> Message-ID: >Mornin' Gary....upon close examination of the A2 in question, I find the label claims AERO LEATHER CO., BEACON, N.Y. As the manufacturer and 38 the size. Your comments re/updating, repainting, etc., are well taken...my A2 shall remain in its state. It's a wonder it exists at all, my three sons having had a turn wearing it to school, playing games, etc., etc. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 16:26:31 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:26:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F1574@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill H., You wrote the following in a previous email: One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent. Question: in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be used? He would not have had any ground combat training. Thanks! Dave ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

B= ill H.,

Y= ou wrote the following in a previous email:

 

One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a = tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be = sent.
 
  Question:  in what capacity could an = aerial gunner or ground personnel be used?  = He would not have had any ground combat training.=

<= ![if !supportEmptyParas]> 

T= hanks!

D= ave

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 17:24:03 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:24:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20030103172403.69952.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Bernd: Before reading this book about Dresden, I had heard a lot about the raid and had seen some documentaries on television. This book has been a very good experience for me to understand the rational used for bombing Dresden, and in hindsight, I now believe the Brits and Americans were wrong to bomb Dresden. But like so many things about the war, it's not that we had the wrong intellegence, we interpretted that intellegence incorrectly. Plus, we wanted to make a major statement to the advancing Russians. When you say there were no industries in Dresen, I must disagree with that. There were industries north of town. But the British Aiming Point was in the Altstaadt (sp) where no industries were located. I believe this all goes back to Trenchard's and Bomber Harris's philosophy of bombing population centers in the hope the people would get their government to surrender. The idea was codenamed "Thunderclap." I never, ever believed an American fighter pilots would strafe innocent civilians, but this book has several eyewitness accounts written soon after the event that said two P-51s strafed and killed innocent people. The bottom line is that I am horrified by what happened. I won't debate the merits of whether we should or shouldn't have bombed. I just hope the World continues to learn that senseless destruction of cities is wrong. It is difficult for someone like me who has never seen war to believe the events that occurred on 13/14 February. Since you live in Germany, how do most people feel about what we did to Dresden now 55+ years later? I know I have been in West Germany - Essen, Gottengen, Kiel, Wilhemshaven, Kassel, Koln, Schweinfurt and several other cities and the people there were very kind even though I was researching WWII bombing raids. I just hope we have learned our lesson that so many people in Dresden paid for with their lives. Kevin --- schlueter@gmx.ch wrote: > When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked > about Your mission. > Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there > were no factories in that region. > The raid was done against the population only. There > was no more production > and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is > not communistic propaganda, > I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came > from Dresden later on. > That was the consequence of the choice of the > bombardement. Do not think, the > official numbers of victims are right! > This was a real mistake and there are some > misunderstandings even today, > f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war > against Iraq. > But, Your work was really well, You bombed most > precisely, as at no other > place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary > murder! > Bernd > > -- > +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net > +++ > NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ > Min. surfen! > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 19:05:33 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:05:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F1574@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <3E15DEFD.2A3A36A0@attglobal.net> --------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will not have had ... is a certain type of past tense. Will get is the answer. "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Bill H., > You wrote the following in a previous email: > > One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The > Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with > requests that THEY be sent. > > Question:in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be > used?He would not have had any ground combat training. > > Thanks! > > Dave > --------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will not have had ... is a certain type of past tense. Will get is the answer.
 
 

"Tooley, Dave" wrote:

Bill H.,
You wrote the following in a previous email:

One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent.

Question:in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be used?He would not have had any ground combat training.

Thanks!

Dave

--------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 19:10:50 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <20030103172403.69952.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E15E03B.E0C3237@attglobal.net> As seen from BOTH sides, Rot! We WON! Would you have had it any other way with all your Monday-morning-quarterbacking? Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bernd: Before reading this book about Dresden, I had > heard a lot about the raid and had seen some > documentaries on television. This book has been a > very good experience for me to understand the rational > used for bombing Dresden, and in hindsight, I now > believe the Brits and Americans were wrong to bomb > Dresden. But like so many things about the war, it's > not that we had the wrong intellegence, we > interpretted that intellegence incorrectly. Plus, we > wanted to make a major statement to the advancing > Russians. > > When you say there were no industries in Dresen, I > must disagree with that. There were industries north > of town. But the British Aiming Point was in the > Altstaadt (sp) where no industries were located. I > believe this all goes back to Trenchard's and Bomber > Harris's philosophy of bombing population centers in > the hope the people would get their government to > surrender. The idea was codenamed "Thunderclap." > > I never, ever believed an American fighter pilots > would strafe innocent civilians, but this book has > several eyewitness accounts written soon after the > event that said two P-51s strafed and killed innocent > people. > > The bottom line is that I am horrified by what > happened. I won't debate the merits of whether we > should or shouldn't have bombed. I just hope the > World continues to learn that senseless destruction of > cities is wrong. > > It is difficult for someone like me who has never seen > war to believe the events that occurred on 13/14 > February. > > Since you live in Germany, how do most people feel > about what we did to Dresden now 55+ years later? I > know I have been in West Germany - Essen, Gottengen, > Kiel, Wilhemshaven, Kassel, Koln, Schweinfurt and > several other cities and the people there were very > kind even though I was researching WWII bombing raids. > > I just hope we have learned our lesson that so many > people in Dresden paid for with their lives. > Kevin > --- schlueter@gmx.ch wrote: > > When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked > > about Your mission. > > Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there > > were no factories in that region. > > The raid was done against the population only. There > > was no more production > > and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is > > not communistic propaganda, > > I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came > > from Dresden later on. > > That was the consequence of the choice of the > > bombardement. Do not think, the > > official numbers of victims are right! > > This was a real mistake and there are some > > misunderstandings even today, > > f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war > > against Iraq. > > But, Your work was really well, You bombed most > > precisely, as at no other > > place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary > > murder! > > Bernd > > > > -- > > +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net > > +++ > > NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ > > Min. surfen! > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 00:41:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (George Frechter) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:41:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE FROM BEETY JANE References: <001201c2b0dc$93b93f40$166907d5@juliajmlyorzol> Message-ID: <005901c2b38a$11773900$f1a85a18@u2z7g8> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As the navigator for James Melton crew, we flew in the Betty Jane from = the day it was turned over to the 303rd. 427 sqd until we finished our = tour the end of May 1944. Heard later it was shot down. George Frechter ----- Original Message -----=20 From: matthias leich=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE FROM BEETY JANE HI , MY NAME IS MATTHIAS LEICH. I'AM RESEARCHER FOR TWO MUSEUM. I LIVING IN = OHRDRUF. OHRDRUF IS 15 MILES NORTH FROM OBERHOF. IN THE AUGUST I FOUND THE = CRASHSITE FROM BETTY JANE. ALL PARTS WAS I FOUND GOES TO THE AIR BATTLE = MUSEUM K=D6LLEDA. BUT I HAVE FOUND ALSO THE AIR FORCE CLOCK.TYPE ELGIN. I WILL GIVE = THIS CLOCK FOR CREWMEMBER OR ASSOCIATION. PLEASE CAN YOU GIVE ME CONTACT = ADRESS? MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE PICTURES FROM THE CRASHSITE? LET ME KNOW THIS AND = I SEND PER E-MAIL. THIS YEAR WE CREATE MONOUMENT FOR ALL PILOTS AND CREWMEMBERS FROM = WW2. WE HAVE MANY CRASHSITES HERE. FROM LUFTWAFFE JG4 AND 55TH FIGHTERGROUP = AND=20 FROM THE HELLENCREW. =20 WE HAVE WORK WITH THE CILHI AND HAVE FOUND REMAINS AND BONES FROM = WILLIAM.M.LEWIS . HE DIED 11.september 1944 IN OBERHOF. THIS WAS RESULT = FROM THE HARD WORK AIR BATTLE MUSEUM KOVARSKA. THE FRIENDS FROM KOVARSKA = HAVE ALSO FOUND THE DAUGHTER IN HOUSTEN. SHE WAS VERY GLAD AND WAS HERE = IN OBERHOF. OK . THIS WAS LITTLE HISTORY.=20 BYE=20 MATTHIAS LEICH ( SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH) ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As the navigator for James Melton crew, = we flew in=20 the Betty Jane from the day it was turned over to the 303rd. 427 sqd = until we=20 finished our tour the end of May 1944.
 
Heard later it was shot = down.
 
George Frechter
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 matthias leich=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, = 2002 9:54=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE = FROM=20 BEETY JANE

HI ,
MY NAME IS MATTHIAS LEICH. I'AM = RESEARCHER FOR=20 TWO MUSEUM. I LIVING IN OHRDRUF.
OHRDRUF IS     15 = MILES NORTH FROM=20 OBERHOF. IN THE AUGUST I FOUND THE CRASHSITE FROM BETTY JANE. ALL = PARTS WAS I=20 FOUND GOES TO THE AIR BATTLE MUSEUM K=D6LLEDA.
BUT I HAVE FOUND ALSO THE AIR = FORCE =20 CLOCK.TYPE ELGIN. I WILL GIVE THIS CLOCK FOR CREWMEMBER OR = ASSOCIATION. PLEASE=20 CAN YOU GIVE ME CONTACT ADRESS?
MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE PICTURES FROM THE = CRASHSITE?=20 LET ME KNOW THIS AND I SEND PER E-MAIL.
 THIS YEAR WE CREATE MONOUMENT = FOR ALL=20 PILOTS AND CREWMEMBERS FROM WW2.
WE HAVE MANY CRASHSITES HERE. FROM = LUFTWAFFE JG4=20 AND 55TH FIGHTERGROUP AND
FROM THE HELLENCREW. =  
WE HAVE WORK WITH THE CILHI AND HAVE = FOUND=20 REMAINS AND BONES FROM WILLIAM.M.LEWIS . HE DIED 11.september 1944 IN = OBERHOF.=20 THIS WAS RESULT FROM THE HARD WORK AIR BATTLE MUSEUM KOVARSKA. THE = FRIENDS=20 FROM KOVARSKA HAVE ALSO FOUND THE DAUGHTER IN HOUSTEN. SHE WAS VERY = GLAD AND=20 WAS HERE IN OBERHOF.
OK . THIS WAS LITTLE HISTORY. =
 
BYE
 
MATTHIAS=20 LEICH          ( SORRY = FOR MY BAD=20 ENGLISH)
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:05:16 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:05:16 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture of other wartime, military consumables. Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the bidding of their political masters. The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get damaged. Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH SIDES DIE. Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I shall now descend once more back into silence. Ray Cossey Norwich, England (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's English representative) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:31:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:31:21 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3E169BD9.21B6F62D@attglobal.net> Dear Ray ... AMEN! Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture > of other wartime, military consumables. > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > bidding of their political masters. > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > damaged. > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH > SIDES DIE. > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's > English representative) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:57:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:57:18 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> To all of you on the 303rd talk list: It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person involved. These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest of you? Gordy Gordon Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to keep your freedom free..." ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray.cossey1" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture > of other wartime, military consumables. > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > bidding of their political masters. > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > damaged. > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH > SIDES DIE. > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's > English representative) > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 09:23:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:23:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] England References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <006b01c2b3d2$ebd93560$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Ray, You have written a very informative and factual argument. I most appreciate the facts and figures put forward. I visited Coventry last October. I went through the Old Cathedral, and the New Cathedral. O have seem the damage....but I don't consider myself to have experienced it. I am only a witness to what remains. I am coming to England this May, and it would be nice to meet up with you then. I would consider it a miss, if I were not be able to shake your hand on this visit. This will be my third. I went to Molesworth on my last one, but I was not fortunate enough to make your acquaintance. I will be there from the 2nd to the 12th of May, but I may be able to extend it a day or two at the end. I will be accompanying a group from the 91st, and some other interested parties. Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 14:29:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 06:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <20030104142919.69402.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon Alton wrote: > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, > regulate, or tell you > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, > Gary and I have learned > over the last couple of years, that certain things > should not or will not be > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if > it makes some of you a > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep > this list going on an even > keel. If some things that are submitted are too > inflammatory or prejudiced > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete > them. Gordon, I certainly concur in your stated policy. However, I wonder why you would have aired the statements of Kevin Pearson on the Dresden raids. It is all but impossible for those of us who were on the missions not to take issue with the stated point of view. The time to head off this kind of debate is in the beginning, not after the fact.......Bill Runnels __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 15:24:34 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 07:24:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> Gordy ... Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could be cewnsored under your rules. Should I have anything of import to mention or report, I shall do so on the normal site. However, I suppose that, too, will soon be censored. NOTHING in history can BE history, if it is censored. Your tirade on "tipping" in the UK during our war, was the last straw. Your last message was the one which broke the Camel's back. Cheers! WCH Gordon Alton wrote: > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned > over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even > keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to > tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. > There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it > comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit > toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. > This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to > tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that > "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and > you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person > involved. > These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is > concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world > war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list > is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We > want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and > the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. > If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please > contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the > finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest > historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in > mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame > instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell > us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an > opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. > Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable > historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. > That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one > of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or > because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. > An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary > and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid > of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between > people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is > right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. > C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent > should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. > Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the > thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the > 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not > have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. > My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest > of you? > Gordy > > Gordon Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Please remember those who gave so > much to keep your freedom free..." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > > > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no > factories > > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre > of > > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the > manufacture > > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the > manufacture > > of other wartime, military consumables. > > > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > > bidding of their political masters. > > > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military > get > > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The > Falklands > > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with > Iraq. > > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > > damaged. > > > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do > you > > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON > BOTH > > SIDES DIE. > > > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is > evil > > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their > people, > > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I > am > > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > > > Ray Cossey > > Norwich, England > > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group > Association's > > English representative) > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 17:32:37 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 09:32:37 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Keeping the list alive..... References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <003301c2b417$471a2b20$c691c8cf@altonmain> Hello, all. I hesitate to answer this on the open forum, but I will. It may put an end to the arguments. In fact, it may put an end to the arguments altogether - for good. I am not a member of any "staff". I do this on my own time, as does Gary. We are not paid, and are simply volunteers trying to get the facts about WWII, esp. where it concerns the 303rd BG. I do it for the love of it - honestly. I belong not just to this group, but also to the 91st, 94th, 381st, and AX-POW. I am a member of the East Anglia Aviation Society in England, which administers the Tower Museum, the old control tower of the 91st. I do an awful lot behind the scenes, most of it anonymously, to keep the memories alive. I am not going to argue with anyone about what Gary and I see as "fit to print". There are a few key words we watch for, and a few subjects we try to keep an eye on, that will alert us to a coming argument that may fire people up and generate arguments. Please be aware that Kevin may not be to happy with us either. He was very willing to step the argument up a stage, and his last post was also omitted yesterday. I am going to be perfectly open and honest with all of you in my next couple of statements. One: Gary and I are not censors or overlords of anything. The only reason we do not post some things is to keep you all from arguing. Two: After the last bunch of trouble with deleted posts, we both came within an inch of stopping the list altogether. I know Gary will have his own post here within a few hours, but for myself, I have just about had enough. I don't need to baby-sit a bunch of adults who can't decide what is or isn't pertinent to the fulfillment of the history of the 303rd. Those who know me well, know that I am a dedicated researcher and author who works at this with every spare moment, to the detriment of other parts of my life. Sorry to carry on this argument in the open, Gary, but it may be time that all of the members are made aware of what goes on behind the scenes, and act accordingly. Maybe it is time to decide whether or not this list is going to keep going or not, and just what direction we want it to take. With respect to all of you, Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > Gordy ... > > Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are > censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in > quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of > censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you > will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. > > Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored > program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with > the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could > be cewnsored under your rules. > > Should I have anything of import to mention or report, I shall do so on the > normal site. However, I suppose that, too, will soon be censored. NOTHING in > history can BE history, if it is censored. > > Your tirade on "tipping" in the UK during our war, was the last straw. Your > last message was the one which broke the Camel's back. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > > Gordon Alton wrote: > > > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you > > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned > > over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be > > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a > > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even > > keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced > > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to > > tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. > > There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it > > comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit > > toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. > > This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to > > tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that > > "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and > > you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... > > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person > > involved. > > These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is > > concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world > > war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list > > is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We > > want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and > > the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. > > If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please > > contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the > > finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest > > historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in > > mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame > > instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell > > us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an > > opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. > > Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable > > historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. > > That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one > > of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or > > because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. > > An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary > > and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid > > of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between > > people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is > > right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. > > C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent > > should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. > > Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the > > thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the > > 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not > > have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. > > My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest > > of you? > > Gordy > > > > Gordon Alton > > Box 855 > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > > 250-537-5913 > > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > > "Please remember those who gave so > > much to keep your freedom free..." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ray.cossey1" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > > > > > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no > > factories > > > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre > > of > > > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the > > manufacture > > > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the > > manufacture > > > of other wartime, military consumables. > > > > > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > > > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > > > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > > > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > > > bidding of their political masters. > > > > > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military > > get > > > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The > > Falklands > > > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with > > Iraq. > > > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > > > damaged. > > > > > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > > > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do > > you > > > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > > > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > > > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > > > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > > > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > > > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > > > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > > > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON > > BOTH > > > SIDES DIE. > > > > > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is > > evil > > > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > > > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > > > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > > > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > > > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their > > people, > > > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > > > > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > > > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I > > am > > > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > > > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > > Norwich, England > > > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group > > Association's > > > English representative) > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 19:17:56 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:17:56 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030104091756.0086a320@ilhawaii.net> Come on, Bill, lighten up! We love you even though you are a curmudgeon, but I,for one stand by Gordy and Gary, and think they are doing a great job. Jim Walling At 07:24 AM 1/4/03 -0800, Bill Heller wrote: >Gordy ... > >Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are >censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in >quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of >censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you >will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. > >Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored >program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with >the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could >be cewnsored under your rules. > >WCH > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 21:35:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:35:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Keeping the list alive..... In-Reply-To: <003301c2b417$471a2b20$c691c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> Gordy Alton, Bill Heller and everyone, This is the last thing in the world I wanted to come home from work and face. Bill, you and I have been round and round on this before. I know your opinion and you know mine. I also know that neither one of us will change that opinion. In a nutshell, here is my position, which will NOT be changed: 1- This list is called 303rd-Talk because that is its intent --- to talk about the 303rd and WWII. That is the one and only reason I started this list over two years ago. 2- The list is paid for by the 303rd Bomb Group Association. I will not allow funds donated to the 303rd BGA to be used for a discussion forum to talk about the weather, current politics, tipping customs, the best restaurant in Chicago, or any other subject that is not directly related to our topic. The reason people join 303rd-Talk is to talk about the 303rd. We who were not there treasure what we can learn about the history from those who were there. 3- When each of you signed up, you should have read the web page here: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk which clearly states: "Our 303rd-Talk Mailing List has been established to allow anyone interested in the 303rd Bomb Group to discuss 303rd BG related topics with each other. 303rd-Talk is free, informal and open to everyone. Use the forum to make comments, and ask and answer questions. List Members include former members of the original 303rd Bomb Group, members of the 303rd Bomb Group Association and others with our common interests. Only list members can post to the list. Advertising, profanity and flaming are not permitted. Please only post messages related to our topic. Discussion of current politics is NOT permitted." Also, you received a welcome message that states the same thing. 4- In the past, whenever the topic drifts to something unrelated to the 303rd, list members start un-subscribing themselves. They didn't intend join an open forum, they joined a 303rd discussion group. There is really no more to be said. The list will stay as it is with each post being approved. As Gordy stated earlier, spam, virus' and porn messages make that necessary regardless of the content of the post. Bill Heller, per your request I will have deleted your subscription to 303rd-Talk. I respect you greatly and I'm sorry we have been unable to iron this one out. We will miss your input and vast knowledge. Susan and I still treasure the friendship of you and Ruth. I truly hope we can shake hands in Portland. If any of you agree or disagree with my position, please send it to me directly at glm@303rdBGA.com (or to Gordy Alton at Gordy@303rdBGA.com.) Please do not reply to this post to the list. I sincerely encourage everyone to take part in discussions about our topic. The sad fact is that old age is taking thousands of our veterans every month. This opportunity to learn about WWII and talk with the men who were actually there will not last long. With deep appreciation and respect to everyone. -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 02:30:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 03:30:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> Message-ID: <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> There was an order and that was to bomb Dresden in just the form, it was done. None of You did anything wrong and it would have been wrong, not to obbey. Sometimes politicians give wrong orders and one of these was the bombardement of Dresdens population in spite of the industry, at a time, when the war really was won. I know the same from the town of my childhood, Muelheim/Ruhr, between Duisburg and Essen. We had a very strong nest of flag in the wood , one mile far from us. In spite of bombing the industry near to the flag, most bombs hit the open field or wood and quarters of living, but not the industry. People were astonished to this. It was not only a single case, that P38-pilots avoided those dangerous points and prefered to dirigate their bullets to single aims, mostly single people on open areas, like one time my mother and me in my pram. This was to be seen dayly, as I was told a few days ago. But we know, such irregularities are normal and these were not done systematically. There was a fault to warn only a group of people during the moslemic raid on the towers of WTC and all the others died, though it could have been avoided. Nobody of You did anything wrong to bomb Dresden, You did not give that order. My father was sent to fight against the British during the invasion between Bayeux and Arromanches. He could not leave the place, for he was set just into the middle of most young "Hitler-Jungen". These were not able to withstand the affords and so all the vetrerans as my father died and the British saved the boys in the same way, they did. My father got a most nice grave inmidst of his British enemies on the most nice cemetery of Bazenville and most people were lucky not to be invaded by Germans or Russians in the East, where the fight was really inhuman. There were too many American deads at Omaha beach by non-optimal planning, we know today and there are two points of view for the most good pilote's work in Dresden and today we know, it was good in precision and in fulfilling the order, which came from above. Yes, I proved it, there were only a very few bombs, which failed more than 10 yards. You could see it even yesterday, when the communistic made Germany came back to the West, to reconstruct it again. So, please, do not struggle, there is nothing to be ashamed of. Bernd -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 03:47:41 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:47:41 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? Is it because we are still learning? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001701c2b46d$4ea7f420$bd91c8cf@altonmain> Bernd, Thanks for your views and honesty on the heavy bombardment of European cities, from the "other side". Your facts and opinions run contrary to some of the history we read on this side of the ocean. There is bound to be more than one view of history. I have tried to read different views of the air war over Europe, but it is sometimes a hard task. My studies of WWII were of the ground war up until the last ten years or so. Much to my father's consternation, I was a student of the ground war for many years. It was not until the last ten or fifteen years that I started to dedicate my research and learning to the air war over Europe. Most history of any war is usually written by the victor. I am glad to see that we are getting a view from the German side. As you say in your email, your father and his compatriots on the German side died defending their country, as the men on our side died trying to defeat Nazi Germany. Dad always told me that he held nothing against the Germans he was fighting. He killed them in order to keep himself alive. That is war. I hope that we can avoid total war again by learning from the past, but I fear it is not to be so. Dad was a guest of the Germans for almost 20 months, at a prison camp in Austria - Stalag 17-B near Krems, Austria. Many of his fellow airmen died. In fact, of the 325 men that went overseas with him in July of 1943, only two of them completed the 25 missions required of them before they could return stateside. The two that did complete their missions did not make it home alive. One of them was named Cox, and he was in a plane that flew into the side of a mountain in Scotland, while trying to return to the USA. The other man, Sandy Sanchez, reenlisted to fly another tour, which he completed. He offered to stay for a third tour, and was killed over Berlin in March of 1945. So, of all those men who went overseas with Dad, not one made it home unscathed. The rest were killed, wounded, or imprisoned. My father told me that by the end of Nov. of '43, almost everyone he knew was dead or in prison camp with him. The American air war took more casualties in the air over Europe and Africa, than all other casualties in WWII, including the war in the Pacific against the Japanese. I have researched my father's last mission extensively. It was to Frankfurt, on Oct. 4, 1943. I have talked to German researchers about that date, and they tell me that 549 civilians were killed in Frankfurt that day. The 8th Air Force lost six planes, and so had 60 casualties. In my father's plane, the navigator, a man by the name of Monson, was killed by fighter attack. Two other men, the waist gunner (shot in the legs) and the radio operator (shot in the head), were eventually repatriated to the USA through the Red Cross. They were deemed as non-combatants because of their wounds. Many people died on both sides, but we as the victors got to write most of the history. With the advent of instant worldwide communications, courtesy of the internet and the telephone, we are now learning of each others suffering. May we learn enough to never go to war against each other again. Gordy. Gordon Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to keep your freedom free..." ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? > There was an order and that was to bomb Dresden in just the form, it was > done. None of You did anything wrong and it would have been wrong, not to obbey. > Sometimes politicians give wrong orders and one of these was the > bombardement of Dresdens population in spite of the industry, at a time, when the war > really was won. I know the same from the town of my childhood, Muelheim/Ruhr, > between Duisburg and Essen. We had a very strong nest of flag in the wood , > one mile far from us. In spite of bombing the industry near to the flag, most > bombs hit the open field or wood and quarters of living, but not the industry. > People were astonished to this. It was not only a single case, that > P38-pilots avoided those dangerous points and prefered to dirigate their bullets to > single aims, mostly single people on open areas, like one time my mother and > me in my pram. This was to be seen dayly, as I was told a few days ago. But we > know, such irregularities are normal and these were not done systematically. > There was a fault to warn only a group of people during the moslemic raid > on the towers of WTC and all the others died, though it could have been > avoided. Nobody of You did anything wrong to bomb Dresden, You did not give that > order. My father was sent to fight against the British during the invasion > between Bayeux and Arromanches. He could not leave the place, for he was set just > into the middle of most young "Hitler-Jungen". These were not able to > withstand the affords and so all the vetrerans as my father died and the British > saved the boys in the same way, they did. My father got a most nice grave > inmidst of his British enemies on the most nice cemetery of Bazenville and most > people were lucky not to be invaded by Germans or Russians in the East, where > the fight was really inhuman. There were too many American deads at Omaha > beach by non-optimal planning, we know today and there are two points of view for > the most good pilote's work in Dresden and today we know, it was good in > precision and in fulfilling the order, which came from above. Yes, I proved it, > there were only a very few bombs, which failed more than 10 yards. You could > see it even yesterday, when the communistic made Germany came back to the > West, to reconstruct it again. So, please, do not struggle, there is nothing to > be ashamed of. > Bernd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 04:41:27 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:41:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? Is it because we are still learning? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> <001701c2b46d$4ea7f420$bd91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E17B777.CBDBEE71@tampabay.rr.com> My dad was a flight ENGR with the 427th. He said after everyone you know has died you stop making new friends because you don't want to lose any more of them. It sounds sad but with 70% loses you have to do what you can to stay alive. Gordon Alton wrote: > Bernd, > Thanks for your views and honesty on the heavy bombardment of European > cities, from the "other side". Your facts and opinions run contrary to some > of the history we read on this side of the ocean. There is bound to be more > than one view of history. I have tried to read different views of the air > war over Europe, but it is sometimes a hard task. My studies of WWII were of > the ground war up until the last ten years or so. Much to my father's > consternation, I was a student of the ground war for many years. It was not > until the last ten or fifteen years that I started to dedicate my research > and learning to the air war over Europe. > Most history of any war is usually written by the victor. I am glad to > see that we are getting a view from the German side. As you say in your > email, your father and his compatriots on the German side died defending > their country, as the men on our side died trying to defeat Nazi Germany. > Dad always told me that he held nothing against the Germans he was fighting. > He killed them in order to keep himself alive. That is war. I hope that we > can avoid total war again by learning from the past, but I fear it is not to > be so. > Dad was a guest of the Germans for almost 20 months, at a prison camp in > Austria - Stalag 17-B near Krems, Austria. Many of his fellow airmen died. > In fact, of the 325 men that went overseas with him in July of 1943, only > two of them completed the 25 missions required of them before they could > return stateside. The two that did complete their missions did not make it > home alive. One of them was named Cox, and he was in a plane that flew into > the side of a mountain in Scotland, while trying to return to the USA. The > other man, Sandy Sanchez, reenlisted to fly another tour, which he > completed. He offered to stay for a third tour, and was killed over Berlin > in March of 1945. So, of all those men who went overseas with Dad, not one > made it home unscathed. The rest were killed, wounded, or imprisoned. > My father told me that by the end of Nov. of '43, almost everyone he > knew was dead or in prison camp with him. The American air war took more > casualties in the air over Europe and Africa, than all other casualties in > WWII, including the war in the Pacific against the Japanese. I have > researched my father's last mission extensively. It was to Frankfurt, on > Oct. 4, 1943. I have talked to German researchers about that date, and they > tell me that 549 civilians were killed in Frankfurt that day. The 8th Air > Force lost six planes, and so had 60 casualties. In my father's plane, the > navigator, a man by the name of Monson, was killed by fighter attack. Two > other men, the waist gunner (shot in the legs) and the radio operator (shot > in the head), were eventually repatriated to the USA through the Red Cross. > They were deemed as non-combatants because of their wounds. > Many people died on both sides, but we as the victors got to write most > of the history. With the advent of instant worldwide communications, > courtesy of the internet and the telephone, we are now learning of each > others suffering. May we learn enough to never go to war against each other > again. > > Gordy. > > Gordon Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Please remember those who gave so > much to keep your freedom free..." > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 05:25:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:25:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] contraversy on the form Message-ID: <002a01c2b47a$edbd2140$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to hear that the temperature is rising on the form, but it is sort = of history repeating itself. Harry Gobrecht on page 649 recounts that tempors were a little hot in = Feb 1945 after the Dresden raids,=20 Gen. Aronl asked Gen. Arnold for an explanation, maybe not to politely. = Those on the mission were given military targets as primary and = secondary, visual bombing was not possible and PFF bombin wasnot the = most accurate. 10 units of leaflets were dropped as well the other armament. Today I do = not recall exactly all that went with the mission other then that it = was long and tiring and that we did have to fly thru a lot of the = defenses of Germany to get there, our fighter cover protected us = because previous months of bombing had crippled plane production and = fuel supplies to the Lufftwaffe. Perhaps a part of history is also the now releasing of repressed = feelings, those that have not been talked about for all these years now = being released for airing. At times some these doubts were somewhat = aired out in combat crew quarters after missions, even tho we = questioned the orders we were given had to be followed for the goofd and = saftey of all those who were participating in the action whether in the = air or on the ground Isn't this all a part of hanger talk? not just take-off, landings and = loop the loop stuff. It would be a darned shame if the site were to shut = down. I have printed off so much of the stuff and provided it to = friends who were in other branches of service or who had not been in = combat and have eaten up the action stuff as well as the personal = comments=20 Gary, keeps up the good work, it's not easy dealing with us old coots = but we are trying to the reading public today what was happening to us = and what wason our minds when we were of an age in the 20's and not yet = 30. We are lucky we can still remember with any clarity. LeRoy Christenson Navigator, 359th, 32 missions flown. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to hear that the temperature is = rising on the=20 form, but it is sort of history repeating itself.
Harry Gobrecht on page 649 recounts = that tempors=20 were a little hot in Feb 1945 after the Dresden raids,
Gen. Aronl asked Gen. Arnold for an = explanation,=20 maybe not to politely. Those on the mission were given military targets = as=20 primary and secondary, visual bombing was not possible and PFF bombin = wasnot the=20 most accurate.
10 units of leaflets were dropped as = well the other=20 armament. Today I do not recall exactly all that went  with the = mission=20 other then that it was long and tiring and that we did have to fly thru = a lot of=20 the defenses  of Germany to get there, our fighter cover protected = us=20 because previous months of bombing had crippled plane production and = fuel =20 supplies to the Lufftwaffe.
Perhaps a part of history is also the = now releasing=20 of repressed feelings, those that have not been talked about for all = these years=20 now being released for airing. At times some these doubts were somewhat = aired=20 out in combat crew quarters after missions,  even tho we questioned = the=20 orders we were given had to be followed for the goofd and saftey of all = those=20 who were participating in the action  whether in the air or on the=20 ground
 
Isn't this all a part of hanger = talk?  not=20 just take-off, landings and loop the loop stuff. It would be a darned = shame if=20 the site were to shut down. I have printed off so much of the = stuff  and=20 provided it to friends who were in other branches of service or who had = not been=20 in combat and have eaten up the action stuff as well as the personal = comments=20
Gary, keeps up the good work, it's not = easy dealing=20 with us old coots but we are trying to the reading public today what was = happening to us and what wason our minds when we were of an age in the = 20's and=20 not yet 30. We are lucky we can still remember with any = clarity.
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator, 359th, 32 missions=20 flown.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:21:02 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 22:21:02 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden Message-ID: <000701c2b482$9f62ddc0$ba2764d8@computer> I am disheartened about the controversy covering the Dresden raid. Luckily I was not involved at that time, having finished my 25 missions Setember 7, l943. I do want to remind the list that, as is the case regarding the Enola Gay, HINDSIGHT IS ALWAYS 20 - 20. Keep up the good work Gary. Ed Lamme', bombardier 427th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:21:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:21:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Full Military Power Message-ID: <00ac01c2b482$bbd2d5a0$27641943@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it safe to put my head up? what exactly does the term "military power" mean as oppposed to any other kind of power. For instance what would be the procedure for a take off on a short runway? Thanks Bill Hoyt ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is it safe to put my head up?
 what exactly does the term "military power" mean as oppposed = to=20 any other kind of power. For instance what would be the procedure = for a=20 take off on a short runway?
Thanks   
 
Bill Hoyt
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:24:11 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:24:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: 
all groups need require new life,members, and prior original founding members 
rightly can exert, even unintendedly,  their possessive feelings as relates 
to groups origin,reason for forming and their efforts to  stimulate it's 
growth and purposes to be  accepted by others  that join. but, unfortunately 
,some new members wanting to become contributing individuals are deterred by 
older established reputationed pioneers , who have by their individual 
demeaner language caused  abilited new members to halt and be quiet and not 
be active constuctive participants. our303rd needs ,as it 's membership ages 
and  departs this world, every ability, strength,desirous participants that 
are eager to further our 303rd bga  mission. this was my entry to this assn. 
that i cherish and support. may this 2003 be the greatest  ever for melding 
our  differing personalities ideas ,a meaningful understanding of each as we 
try to be productive contributing 303rders true to our purposes and mission. 
my praise to all .


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 07:49:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:49:55 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...
Message-ID: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>

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Hi Bob,
You were talking about your jacket the other day, and I thought you might be
interested in this one listed on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4729&item=752018072

eBay photo is also up for bid. It is of the "Knock Out Dropper".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4727&item=752385479

Does anyone recognize anyone in the photo?

Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."

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