From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- >From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 00:32:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 31 December 1943 Message-ID: <3E11D4CA.10440.25910BD@localhost> Thought you might like to read how my dad spent the last day of 1943. Happy New Year, everyone. Please be safe tonight. ---------- From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur (359th BS) MISSION #3 Date: December 31, 1943 Target: German Ship, Gironde Bay, France Altitude: 16,000 feet Plane: U-131 "Flak Wolf" Position: "Tail-end Charlie," High Squadron This was one of the longest raids which was sent from this base. We were in the air about 8 hours. We were sent to bomb a ship in Gironde Bay, near Bordeaux, France, which was supposed to be loaded with a cargo of raw rubber. This ship was grounded in shallow water and the Germans were attempting to unload it with small tugs and little boats. (This information was given to us by the Intelligence Office.) What we found was a little different. Upon reaching the target area, we found it was impossible to bomb because of complete cloud coverage. Therefore, we had to abandon our primary target. We had been assigned to three alternate targets, so we proceeded to fly to our first alternate. This target, too, proved to be completely covered with clouds, though we did receive a little attention in the form of flak. We then continued our aerial tour of France by going to our second alternate target - and we had the same luck as before. Complete cloud coverage stopped us from bombing, though a few bursts of flak told us that we were still unwelcome. The third target was no different - it apparently just wasn't our day. Therefore, it was necessary to return to our base and land with a load of bombs. We were carrying 12 five-hundred pound demolition bombs. So much for our "Cook's tour" of France, but during this time we were having a few mechanical troubles of our own. The No. 2 propeller "ran away" soon after reaching our primary target, but we were finally able to get it to settle down after babying it along for quite a while. We then left the inboard throttles set and made adjustments in power settings with the outboard throttles only. Whenever No. 2 throttle was touched, the prop would really "wind up." We were able to get back without having to feather the prop - luckily for us. On our way into the target, we ran into light flak while crossing the Brest Peninsula, but none of it hit very close to our plane. We had a bunch of JU-88s with us for awhile, but they were pretty wary about coming in too close to our guns, which none of us regretted very much. P-47s gave us excellent cover on the withdrawal from the target and across the Brest Peninsula. Upon reaching England, we ran into the kind of weather pilots dread. We found very adverse weather all the way in from the English coast. All of our flight back over England, we flew at about 500 feet above the ground and were unable to even see the other ships in the formation. With several hundred bombers doing the same thing, it became a rather ticklish business. We gradually dropped out of formation and struck out on our own, figuring it was much safer than flying formation on instruments. We got a "QDM" from Sabbo. (In other words, we received a bearing by radio from our plane to our base. We also used several English radio stations - called "Darky" stations.) Upon reaching the field, it was next to impossible to see a runway. We buzzed the field at about 100 feet and finally felt our way through the rain and fog until we found out where the runway was. Nineteen planes were landed in this fog and rain in a little over 12 minutes, a record in fast landings even under perfect conditions. Slight battle damage to plane from flak, but no injury to any of the crew. This was the way we ended the year 1943. ---------- -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 1 17:24:32 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:24:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals References: <007001c2b111$485c8ae0$6e010a0a@TONKATRUCK> Message-ID: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Patrick - Here are a few links to sites with "Order of Precedence" for Air Force service medals and ribbons. http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0101/medals.html http://www.thebattlezone.com/medals/afoop.html http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/ribbons/AirForce1.html http://www.homeofheroes.com/medals/images_bk/thumbs.html Hope this helps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Egan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > Can anyone suggest a website or other resource which I might consult to determine if I > have the configuration correct for my dad's ribbon bars. > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Patrick Egan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] My dad's medals > > > I have been building a display case for my dad's medals and other emblems from his days in > the 8th > > Can anyone tell me if I have the configuration right for the ribbon bars > I have a picture of the ribbons and wings at http://www.egan.org/b17/medals.jpg > > > > If you are interested I have a picture of the whole case so far too at > http://www.egan.org/b17/MedalCase-sml.jpg > > Thanks > > ______________________ > Patrick Egan > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Fax: 805-696-6883 > patrick@openmake.com > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 17:09:26 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:09:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. = However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist = gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need.=20 I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. Fory Kuykendall's RO ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
During stateside traing there were two = waist=20 gunners assigned to a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd = &=20 360th sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man power=20 shortage.
 
Therefore, our waist gunner manned = both sides=20 depending on need.
 
I presume it was this way on all = crews, at least=20 from June 1945 on.
 
Fory
Kuykendall's = RO
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2B24F.69C9F980-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 17:47:25 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <077201c2b1ba$a73fb9c0$6700a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <20030102174725.74406.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Hey gang and Happy New Year! I am reading a book titled "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox" by Alexander McFee. I know many of you were on this mission and I was curious as to your thoughts about the mission. McFee interviews many of the pilots and crew, both RAF and AAF, that flew this mission, and many said that at briefing they felt something just wasn't right about the mission, even those who knew nothing about Dresden. My question is, "What do you recall from briefing that day and did you have any feelings of the mission being strange or unwarranted?" The book is poorly written from an English and grammatical sense, but the facts presented are quite interesting, especially the first hand accounts of those in the air and on the ground. I do recommend this book if you haven't already read it as it was released in 1981, I believe. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 19:16:25 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:16:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: <3DF233CE.25532.25BBFBC@localhost> Message-ID: > Bob Hand, > Thanks for the photos of your A-2 Jacket. I have it on the > page now. Do any of you have A-2 jackets we can show? > http://www.303rdbga.com/a2.html > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a question regarding the A-2s...Mine has a red triangle with a white inset and black "C"...unfortunately the white has flaked off, making it hard to see the "C". Would you advise revitalizing the image by repainting the white inset? Or is the jacket worth more as it is? Please refer to the picture amongst the others. Many thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 20:46:50 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:46:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030102204650.15144.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com> Bob: Regarding your A-2 and the flaked off white C. It all depends on what you want to do with the jacket. If you want to preserve it for historical purposes, don't touch it. Museums and even collectors wouldn't want the coat if it had been "touched up." However, if you want to wear the hacket, hand it down you your kin and keep it in the family, then by all means touch it up. But keep in mind the value will be greatly reduced if you touch it up. My A-2 from Eastman Leather arrived two weeks ago and was just too tight for comfort even though it was a size 50, the largest size they make. I have been trying to get them to consider custom making me a larger size, but the guy I have to work with is in New York, the US Distributor, and he is not being cooperative. I will keep you posted. Best wishes for the New Year Bob! I do like the post of your jacket on Gary's website! --- Bob Hand wrote: > > Bob Hand, > > Thanks for the photos of your A-2 Jacket. I have > it on the > > page now. Do any of you have A-2 jackets we can > show? > > http://www.303rdbga.com/a2.html > > > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) > Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a > question regarding the A-2s...Mine > has a red triangle with a white inset and black > "C"...unfortunately the white > has flaked off, making it hard to see the "C". > Would you advise revitalizing > the image by repainting the white inset? Or is the > jacket worth more as it is? > Please refer to the picture amongst the others. > Many thanks and Cheers, Bob > Hand > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 22:15:00 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:15:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: References: <3DF233CE.25532.25BBFBC@localhost> Message-ID: <3E145774.17752.1DC97BE@localhost> Bob, I agree completely with Kevin's response. If you're talking dollars, the untouched, authentic jackets are worth much more. Take a look at the ones that sell on eBay. My jacket is from Col Clyde Bradley at Bradley Associates. It has the Cooper label. I really like it and wear it most everywhere I go now. > >A very Happy New Year to you Gary! I had a question regarding > >the A-2s...Mine > has a red triangle with a white inset and black > "C"...unfortunately the white has flaked off, making it hard to > see the "C". Would you advise revitalizing the image by > repainting the white inset? Or is the jacket worth more as it > is? Please refer to the picture amongst the others. Many thanks > and Cheers, Bob Hand -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 22:21:53 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:21:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners In-Reply-To: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> Message-ID: <3E145911.11496.1E2E77B@localhost> We have many crew photos taken during the US training with ten men, who ended up with eight or nine as the waist gunner positions were eliminated. The combat crews went from 10 to 9 to 8 men late in the war. I don't know the dates the reduction in crew size took place, but our historian Harry Gobrecht might. Also, some gunners traded places on the crews. On my dad's crew, his tail gunner on the loading lists actually flew as a waist gunner on 26 of their 28 missions. One of the official waist gunners manned the tail guns on those missions. > During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to > a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th > sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man > power shortage. > > Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. > > > I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 > on. > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 23:37:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:37:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners References: <002401c2b281$b5031a80$e69a46c6@computer> Message-ID: <3E14CD57.5A77CFAC@attglobal.net> --------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent. Fory Barton wrote: > During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. > However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist > gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, > our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. I presume it was > this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. ForyKuykendall's RO --------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent.
 
 

Fory Barton wrote:

During stateside traing there were two waist gunners assigned to a crew. However, when our crew arrived at the 303rd & 360th sqdn, one waist gunner was taken away apparently due to man power shortage. Therefore, our waist gunner manned both sides depending on need. I presume it was this way on all crews, at least from June 1945 on. ForyKuykendall's RO
--------------DA0F95C126C06CE0B2E6A92A-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 2 23:41:23 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:41:23 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <20030102174725.74406.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> I was on, and led, some Dresden missions. I had NO feelings whatsoever except that this was war and if the Axis did not STOP it, we would MAKE THEM STOP IT, and we DID! Each time I bombed Dresden I was conscious of the fact that I had Aunts, Uncles and Cousins down in the city. Machts nichts! WE WERE AT WAR, or don't some of you remember that? Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hey gang and Happy New Year! I am reading a book > titled "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox" by > Alexander McFee. I know many of you were on this > mission and I was curious as to your thoughts about > the mission. McFee interviews many of the pilots and > crew, both RAF and AAF, that flew this mission, and > many said that at briefing they felt something just > wasn't right about the mission, even those who knew > nothing about Dresden. My question is, "What do you > recall from briefing that day and did you have any > feelings of the mission being strange or unwarranted?" > > The book is poorly written from an English and > grammatical sense, but the facts presented are quite > interesting, especially the first hand accounts of > those in the air and on the ground. I do recommend > this book if you haven't already read it as it was > released in 1981, I believe. > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 01:28:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:28:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] VIEW INTO THE PAST Message-ID: <000601c2b2c7$99965f00$69bb9ace@mjpmtman> It has taken me this long to read the v-mails that I wrote to my mother - she was a saver! 89 in number. The first one Oct. 15,'42 and the last one June !!, '45. [we hit the base on Oct 8 '42 and I flew out on June 11, '45].Some one on the forum once said that our memories get a little befuddled with age. I read things I had forgotten or didn't even remember. Sunday Dec 20, '42 -- Breakfast, Bacon, Powdered whole eggs made into sort of omelet - oatmeal or cream of wheat occasionally - strong coffee & grapefruit juice & once in a while jelly.. Dinner{today] - roast beef - tomato & rice - succotash - & bread pudding, Unusual not soup today - pretty good soup too. V-mail blanks at premium - uaually get 8 sheets on pay day. Affetive Jan 18 - no packages unless written request signed by C.O. is presented at PO --- Feb 3 - on pass in Northampton, wslked the town & swam - nice indoor pool. Feb 6 - Nothing to be sent from the states that can be obtained over her. [???] Feb 18, they just finished shower and restroom near barracks.[site #1] Boy am I being re-educated.- I don't remember roast beef this early. Swimming pool? Did Northampton Red Cross have a pool? The package restriction, I don't believe, affected us to much.. Does any of this ring a bell to anyone.[ I am recording selected excerpts from these letters to put with "My Life In The USAAF - 1942 to 1945".] May your Moccasins make happy tracks in many snows to come ---Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 03:16:04 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:16:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We arrived at Molesworth in mid Dec '44 and had gone thru phase training at Drew Field with only one waist gunner and we lost him when they took out both waist guns in mid March of '45, and we finished our tour with no waist gunner or waist guns. Bill Carter,BTG in 358th --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We arrived at Molesworth in mid Dec '44 and had gone thru phase training at Drew Field with only one waist gunner and we lost him when they took out both waist guns in mid March of '45, and we finished our tour with no waist gunner or waist guns.
Bill Carter,BTG in 358th --part1_f6.269a2ba0.2b465a74_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 09:58:23 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:58:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked about Your mission. Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there were no factories in that region. The raid was done against the population only. There was no more production and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is not communistic propaganda, I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came from Dresden later on. That was the consequence of the choice of the bombardement. Do not think, the official numbers of victims are right! This was a real mistake and there are some misunderstandings even today, f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war against Iraq. But, Your work was really well, You bombed most precisely, as at no other place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary murder! Bernd -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 15:15:22 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: A2 Jackets.... In-Reply-To: <3E145774.17752.1DC97BE@localhost> Message-ID: >Mornin' Gary....upon close examination of the A2 in question, I find the label claims AERO LEATHER CO., BEACON, N.Y. As the manufacturer and 38 the size. Your comments re/updating, repainting, etc., are well taken...my A2 shall remain in its state. It's a wonder it exists at all, my three sons having had a turn wearing it to school, playing games, etc., etc. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 16:26:31 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:26:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F1574@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill H., You wrote the following in a previous email: One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent. Question: in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be used? He would not have had any ground combat training. Thanks! Dave ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

B= ill H.,

Y= ou wrote the following in a previous email:

 

One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a = tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be = sent.
 
  Question:  in what capacity could an = aerial gunner or ground personnel be used?  = He would not have had any ground combat training.=

<= ![if !supportEmptyParas]> 

T= hanks!

D= ave

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B344.DF949580-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 17:24:03 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:24:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20030103172403.69952.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Bernd: Before reading this book about Dresden, I had heard a lot about the raid and had seen some documentaries on television. This book has been a very good experience for me to understand the rational used for bombing Dresden, and in hindsight, I now believe the Brits and Americans were wrong to bomb Dresden. But like so many things about the war, it's not that we had the wrong intellegence, we interpretted that intellegence incorrectly. Plus, we wanted to make a major statement to the advancing Russians. When you say there were no industries in Dresen, I must disagree with that. There were industries north of town. But the British Aiming Point was in the Altstaadt (sp) where no industries were located. I believe this all goes back to Trenchard's and Bomber Harris's philosophy of bombing population centers in the hope the people would get their government to surrender. The idea was codenamed "Thunderclap." I never, ever believed an American fighter pilots would strafe innocent civilians, but this book has several eyewitness accounts written soon after the event that said two P-51s strafed and killed innocent people. The bottom line is that I am horrified by what happened. I won't debate the merits of whether we should or shouldn't have bombed. I just hope the World continues to learn that senseless destruction of cities is wrong. It is difficult for someone like me who has never seen war to believe the events that occurred on 13/14 February. Since you live in Germany, how do most people feel about what we did to Dresden now 55+ years later? I know I have been in West Germany - Essen, Gottengen, Kiel, Wilhemshaven, Kassel, Koln, Schweinfurt and several other cities and the people there were very kind even though I was researching WWII bombing raids. I just hope we have learned our lesson that so many people in Dresden paid for with their lives. Kevin --- schlueter@gmx.ch wrote: > When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked > about Your mission. > Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there > were no factories in that region. > The raid was done against the population only. There > was no more production > and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is > not communistic propaganda, > I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came > from Dresden later on. > That was the consequence of the choice of the > bombardement. Do not think, the > official numbers of victims are right! > This was a real mistake and there are some > misunderstandings even today, > f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war > against Iraq. > But, Your work was really well, You bombed most > precisely, as at no other > place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary > murder! > Bernd > > -- > +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net > +++ > NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ > Min. surfen! > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 19:05:33 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:05:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F1574@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <3E15DEFD.2A3A36A0@attglobal.net> --------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will not have had ... is a certain type of past tense. Will get is the answer. "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Bill H., > You wrote the following in a previous email: > > One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The > Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with > requests that THEY be sent. > > Question:in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be > used?He would not have had any ground combat training. > > Thanks! > > Dave > --------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will not have had ... is a certain type of past tense. Will get is the answer.
 
 

"Tooley, Dave" wrote:

Bill H.,
You wrote the following in a previous email:

One aerial gunner was removed to be sent to support the Battle of The Bulge. As a tribute to our ground personnel, we were INUNDATED with requests that THEY be sent.

Question:in what capacity could an aerial gunner or ground personnel be used?He would not have had any ground combat training.

Thanks!

Dave

--------------9BB152E7877CC6D1FF5A7CF7-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 3 19:10:50 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <20030103172403.69952.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E15E03B.E0C3237@attglobal.net> As seen from BOTH sides, Rot! We WON! Would you have had it any other way with all your Monday-morning-quarterbacking? Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bernd: Before reading this book about Dresden, I had > heard a lot about the raid and had seen some > documentaries on television. This book has been a > very good experience for me to understand the rational > used for bombing Dresden, and in hindsight, I now > believe the Brits and Americans were wrong to bomb > Dresden. But like so many things about the war, it's > not that we had the wrong intellegence, we > interpretted that intellegence incorrectly. Plus, we > wanted to make a major statement to the advancing > Russians. > > When you say there were no industries in Dresen, I > must disagree with that. There were industries north > of town. But the British Aiming Point was in the > Altstaadt (sp) where no industries were located. I > believe this all goes back to Trenchard's and Bomber > Harris's philosophy of bombing population centers in > the hope the people would get their government to > surrender. The idea was codenamed "Thunderclap." > > I never, ever believed an American fighter pilots > would strafe innocent civilians, but this book has > several eyewitness accounts written soon after the > event that said two P-51s strafed and killed innocent > people. > > The bottom line is that I am horrified by what > happened. I won't debate the merits of whether we > should or shouldn't have bombed. I just hope the > World continues to learn that senseless destruction of > cities is wrong. > > It is difficult for someone like me who has never seen > war to believe the events that occurred on 13/14 > February. > > Since you live in Germany, how do most people feel > about what we did to Dresden now 55+ years later? I > know I have been in West Germany - Essen, Gottengen, > Kiel, Wilhemshaven, Kassel, Koln, Schweinfurt and > several other cities and the people there were very > kind even though I was researching WWII bombing raids. > > I just hope we have learned our lesson that so many > people in Dresden paid for with their lives. > Kevin > --- schlueter@gmx.ch wrote: > > When I had been in Dresden ten years ago, I asked > > about Your mission. > > Despite of the German mission to Coventry, there > > were no factories in that region. > > The raid was done against the population only. There > > was no more production > > and you destroyed lifes of refugees only. This is > > not communistic propaganda, > > I am telling of and the "best" Stasi-officers came > > from Dresden later on. > > That was the consequence of the choice of the > > bombardement. Do not think, the > > official numbers of victims are right! > > This was a real mistake and there are some > > misunderstandings even today, > > f.i. if you look to friendly assistances for the war > > against Iraq. > > But, Your work was really well, You bombed most > > precisely, as at no other > > place. You are not guilty for that unnecessary > > murder! > > Bernd > > > > -- > > +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net > > +++ > > NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ > > Min. surfen! > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 00:41:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (George Frechter) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:41:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE FROM BEETY JANE References: <001201c2b0dc$93b93f40$166907d5@juliajmlyorzol> Message-ID: <005901c2b38a$11773900$f1a85a18@u2z7g8> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As the navigator for James Melton crew, we flew in the Betty Jane from = the day it was turned over to the 303rd. 427 sqd until we finished our = tour the end of May 1944. Heard later it was shot down. George Frechter ----- Original Message -----=20 From: matthias leich=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE FROM BEETY JANE HI , MY NAME IS MATTHIAS LEICH. I'AM RESEARCHER FOR TWO MUSEUM. I LIVING IN = OHRDRUF. OHRDRUF IS 15 MILES NORTH FROM OBERHOF. IN THE AUGUST I FOUND THE = CRASHSITE FROM BETTY JANE. ALL PARTS WAS I FOUND GOES TO THE AIR BATTLE = MUSEUM K=D6LLEDA. BUT I HAVE FOUND ALSO THE AIR FORCE CLOCK.TYPE ELGIN. I WILL GIVE = THIS CLOCK FOR CREWMEMBER OR ASSOCIATION. PLEASE CAN YOU GIVE ME CONTACT = ADRESS? MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE PICTURES FROM THE CRASHSITE? LET ME KNOW THIS AND = I SEND PER E-MAIL. THIS YEAR WE CREATE MONOUMENT FOR ALL PILOTS AND CREWMEMBERS FROM = WW2. WE HAVE MANY CRASHSITES HERE. FROM LUFTWAFFE JG4 AND 55TH FIGHTERGROUP = AND=20 FROM THE HELLENCREW. =20 WE HAVE WORK WITH THE CILHI AND HAVE FOUND REMAINS AND BONES FROM = WILLIAM.M.LEWIS . HE DIED 11.september 1944 IN OBERHOF. THIS WAS RESULT = FROM THE HARD WORK AIR BATTLE MUSEUM KOVARSKA. THE FRIENDS FROM KOVARSKA = HAVE ALSO FOUND THE DAUGHTER IN HOUSTEN. SHE WAS VERY GLAD AND WAS HERE = IN OBERHOF. OK . THIS WAS LITTLE HISTORY.=20 BYE=20 MATTHIAS LEICH ( SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH) ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As the navigator for James Melton crew, = we flew in=20 the Betty Jane from the day it was turned over to the 303rd. 427 sqd = until we=20 finished our tour the end of May 1944.
 
Heard later it was shot = down.
 
George Frechter
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 matthias leich=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, = 2002 9:54=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] CRASHSITE = FROM=20 BEETY JANE

HI ,
MY NAME IS MATTHIAS LEICH. I'AM = RESEARCHER FOR=20 TWO MUSEUM. I LIVING IN OHRDRUF.
OHRDRUF IS     15 = MILES NORTH FROM=20 OBERHOF. IN THE AUGUST I FOUND THE CRASHSITE FROM BETTY JANE. ALL = PARTS WAS I=20 FOUND GOES TO THE AIR BATTLE MUSEUM K=D6LLEDA.
BUT I HAVE FOUND ALSO THE AIR = FORCE =20 CLOCK.TYPE ELGIN. I WILL GIVE THIS CLOCK FOR CREWMEMBER OR = ASSOCIATION. PLEASE=20 CAN YOU GIVE ME CONTACT ADRESS?
MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE PICTURES FROM THE = CRASHSITE?=20 LET ME KNOW THIS AND I SEND PER E-MAIL.
 THIS YEAR WE CREATE MONOUMENT = FOR ALL=20 PILOTS AND CREWMEMBERS FROM WW2.
WE HAVE MANY CRASHSITES HERE. FROM = LUFTWAFFE JG4=20 AND 55TH FIGHTERGROUP AND
FROM THE HELLENCREW. =  
WE HAVE WORK WITH THE CILHI AND HAVE = FOUND=20 REMAINS AND BONES FROM WILLIAM.M.LEWIS . HE DIED 11.september 1944 IN = OBERHOF.=20 THIS WAS RESULT FROM THE HARD WORK AIR BATTLE MUSEUM KOVARSKA. THE = FRIENDS=20 FROM KOVARSKA HAVE ALSO FOUND THE DAUGHTER IN HOUSTEN. SHE WAS VERY = GLAD AND=20 WAS HERE IN OBERHOF.
OK . THIS WAS LITTLE HISTORY. =
 
BYE
 
MATTHIAS=20 LEICH          ( SORRY = FOR MY BAD=20 ENGLISH)
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2B360.2859C7C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:05:16 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:05:16 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture of other wartime, military consumables. Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the bidding of their political masters. The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get damaged. Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH SIDES DIE. Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I shall now descend once more back into silence. Ray Cossey Norwich, England (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's English representative) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:31:21 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:31:21 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3E169BD9.21B6F62D@attglobal.net> Dear Ray ... AMEN! Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture > of other wartime, military consumables. > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > bidding of their political masters. > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > damaged. > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH > SIDES DIE. > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's > English representative) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 08:57:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:57:18 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> To all of you on the 303rd talk list: It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person involved. These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest of you? Gordy Gordon Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to keep your freedom free..." ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray.cossey1" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no factories > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre of > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the manufacture > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the manufacture > of other wartime, military consumables. > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > bidding of their political masters. > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military get > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with Iraq. > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > damaged. > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do you > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON BOTH > SIDES DIE. > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is evil > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their people, > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I am > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group Association's > English representative) > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 09:23:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:23:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] England References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <006b01c2b3d2$ebd93560$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Ray, You have written a very informative and factual argument. I most appreciate the facts and figures put forward. I visited Coventry last October. I went through the Old Cathedral, and the New Cathedral. O have seem the damage....but I don't consider myself to have experienced it. I am only a witness to what remains. I am coming to England this May, and it would be nice to meet up with you then. I would consider it a miss, if I were not be able to shake your hand on this visit. This will be my third. I went to Molesworth on my last one, but I was not fortunate enough to make your acquaintance. I will be there from the 2nd to the 12th of May, but I may be able to extend it a day or two at the end. I will be accompanying a group from the 91st, and some other interested parties. Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 14:29:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 06:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <20030104142919.69402.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon Alton wrote: > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, > regulate, or tell you > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, > Gary and I have learned > over the last couple of years, that certain things > should not or will not be > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if > it makes some of you a > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep > this list going on an even > keel. If some things that are submitted are too > inflammatory or prejudiced > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete > them. Gordon, I certainly concur in your stated policy. However, I wonder why you would have aired the statements of Kevin Pearson on the Dresden raids. It is all but impossible for those of us who were on the missions not to take issue with the stated point of view. The time to head off this kind of debate is in the beginning, not after the fact.......Bill Runnels __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 15:24:34 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 07:24:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> Gordy ... Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could be cewnsored under your rules. Should I have anything of import to mention or report, I shall do so on the normal site. However, I suppose that, too, will soon be censored. NOTHING in history can BE history, if it is censored. Your tirade on "tipping" in the UK during our war, was the last straw. Your last message was the one which broke the Camel's back. Cheers! WCH Gordon Alton wrote: > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned > over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even > keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to > tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. > There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it > comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit > toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. > This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to > tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that > "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and > you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person > involved. > These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is > concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world > war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list > is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We > want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and > the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. > If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please > contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the > finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest > historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in > mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame > instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell > us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an > opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. > Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable > historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. > That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one > of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or > because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. > An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary > and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid > of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between > people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is > right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. > C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent > should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. > Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the > thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the > 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not > have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. > My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest > of you? > Gordy > > Gordon Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Please remember those who gave so > much to keep your freedom free..." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > > > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no > factories > > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre > of > > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the > manufacture > > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the > manufacture > > of other wartime, military consumables. > > > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > > bidding of their political masters. > > > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military > get > > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The > Falklands > > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with > Iraq. > > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > > damaged. > > > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do > you > > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON > BOTH > > SIDES DIE. > > > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is > evil > > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their > people, > > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I > am > > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > > > Ray Cossey > > Norwich, England > > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group > Association's > > English representative) > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 17:32:37 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 09:32:37 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Keeping the list alive..... References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <003301c2b417$471a2b20$c691c8cf@altonmain> Hello, all. I hesitate to answer this on the open forum, but I will. It may put an end to the arguments. In fact, it may put an end to the arguments altogether - for good. I am not a member of any "staff". I do this on my own time, as does Gary. We are not paid, and are simply volunteers trying to get the facts about WWII, esp. where it concerns the 303rd BG. I do it for the love of it - honestly. I belong not just to this group, but also to the 91st, 94th, 381st, and AX-POW. I am a member of the East Anglia Aviation Society in England, which administers the Tower Museum, the old control tower of the 91st. I do an awful lot behind the scenes, most of it anonymously, to keep the memories alive. I am not going to argue with anyone about what Gary and I see as "fit to print". There are a few key words we watch for, and a few subjects we try to keep an eye on, that will alert us to a coming argument that may fire people up and generate arguments. Please be aware that Kevin may not be to happy with us either. He was very willing to step the argument up a stage, and his last post was also omitted yesterday. I am going to be perfectly open and honest with all of you in my next couple of statements. One: Gary and I are not censors or overlords of anything. The only reason we do not post some things is to keep you all from arguing. Two: After the last bunch of trouble with deleted posts, we both came within an inch of stopping the list altogether. I know Gary will have his own post here within a few hours, but for myself, I have just about had enough. I don't need to baby-sit a bunch of adults who can't decide what is or isn't pertinent to the fulfillment of the history of the 303rd. Those who know me well, know that I am a dedicated researcher and author who works at this with every spare moment, to the detriment of other parts of my life. Sorry to carry on this argument in the open, Gary, but it may be time that all of the members are made aware of what goes on behind the scenes, and act accordingly. Maybe it is time to decide whether or not this list is going to keep going or not, and just what direction we want it to take. With respect to all of you, Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > Gordy ... > > Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are > censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in > quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of > censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you > will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. > > Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored > program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with > the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could > be cewnsored under your rules. > > Should I have anything of import to mention or report, I shall do so on the > normal site. However, I suppose that, too, will soon be censored. NOTHING in > history can BE history, if it is censored. > > Your tirade on "tipping" in the UK during our war, was the last straw. Your > last message was the one which broke the Camel's back. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > > Gordon Alton wrote: > > > To all of you on the 303rd talk list: > > It is not the job of Gary or myself to censor, regulate, or tell you > > what to say on this talk list. Having said that, Gary and I have learned > > over the last couple of years, that certain things should not or will not be > > said on this list. That is our prerogative, and if it makes some of you a > > little concerned, then so be it. We try and keep this list going on an even > > keel. If some things that are submitted are too inflammatory or prejudiced > > or argumentative, then it is our decision to delete them. We usually try to > > tell you when this happens, and for what reason, but not always. > > There are and always will be a lot of political biases concerned when it > > comes to war. If we have to make a decision to keep things a little bit > > toned down, to result in a less argument atmosphere, then we will do that. > > This forum is not meant to settle arguments of a half century ago, or to > > tell you - any one of you - how you should think. It may concern you that > > "your post" did not make it to the public forum of the 303rd Talk List, and > > you may be mad about that. If so, take it up with me (Gordy... > > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com or Gary ) on a personal level, or with the person > > involved. > > These are inflammatory times, and we are at war. However, this list is > > concerned with the comings and goings of the 303rd BG in the second world > > war. We are not here to solve the current problems of the world. This list > > is meant to be a conduit to the men and the history of a time gone by. We > > want to learn and record the history of a great team of men, machines, and > > the Allied effort that took place some half a century ago. > > If you want to add to that, and serve to record those times, then please > > contribute. I live for it, and look forward to it. This really is one of the > > finest lists on the web right now, and we really do have some of the finest > > historians alive today contributing to this history. Please keep that in > > mind when you post things to this list. If your email is meant to inflame > > instead of inform, if your email is meant to prove a point, instead of tell > > us all of a point in history, or if you want to impress some one else an > > opinion instead of the facts.....maybe give a thought to sending it out. > > Men, we have with us here some of the most enlightened and knowledgeable > > historians that exist in this world today about the air war during WWII. > > That is a given. I won't mention any names. You know who you are. If any one > > of you ever quits contributing because of anything someone else says, or > > because you get a pebble under your horse blanket, then we are all losers. > > An awful lot of you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes. Gary > > and I discard at least a half dozen viruses and hoaxes every day. We get rid > > of ads, and unsolicited emails on a regular basis. Having to referee between > > people who want to argue, or prove a point, is very hard to do. Who is > > right, who is wrong, who should we let pass....etc. etc. etc. > > C'mon, guys. We shouldn't have to do this. Every post that is sent > > should be able to be posted. We're not referees, and we don't want to be. > > Let's start this New Year out on a little better foundation, with the > > thought that every single post should be a contribution to the memory of the > > 303rd and Molesworth. It would sure make our job easier, and we would not > > have to play the "bad guys" on post that are coming in. > > My New Years resolution is going to be to contribute. How about the rest > > of you? > > Gordy > > > > Gordon Alton > > Box 855 > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > > 250-537-5913 > > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > > "Please remember those who gave so > > much to keep your freedom free..." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ray.cossey1" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 > > > > > Bernd Schleuter is so very mistaken to believe that there were no > > factories > > > in and around Coventry, England during the war. It was the very epicentre > > of > > > our automotive-manufacturing business and which was used for the > > manufacture > > > of military vehicles, with many factories being converted to the > > manufacture > > > of other wartime, military consumables. > > > > > > Bill Heller is right in questioning the younger generations sanitized view > > > of war. Everyone (apart from politicians) are innocents in wartime, > > > including all military personnel. In modern warfare, no soldier to my > > > knowledge ever declared war, all they ever have to do is to respond to the > > > bidding of their political masters. > > > > > > The unpalatable truth of war is that civilians, as well as the military > > get > > > killed...it cannot be avoided. It happened in Korea, Vietnam, The > > Falklands > > > and the Gulf and it will happen again, if we eventually go to war with > > Iraq. > > > You simply cannot have a war were only property and material things get > > > damaged. > > > > > > Kevin Pearson says he thinks we were wrong to bomb Dresden. Sorry, Kevin, > > > but you and I must disagree on that one, most strongly. What the heck do > > you > > > think the Luftwaffe were doing to us British civilians during the blitz on > > > London, Coventry, my home town of Norwich and other large centres of > > > population? Norwich had 31,000 or so residential properties during the war > > > years and over 27,500 sustained some form of damage. Very nearly 300 > > > civilians, some of my family included, died over just two nights (27 & 29 > > > April, 1942). I know you'll come back at me with much higher civilian > > > fatalities for Dresden and other German cities, but I guess wartime > > > league-tables have little validity. THE FACT OF WAR IS THAT PEOPLE, ON > > BOTH > > > SIDES DIE. > > > > > > Please, let's get real on this one. I agree with you Kevin that war is > > evil > > > and can never be defended, or validated, in any way, shape, or form. > > > However, when it does happen, please let's face up to the reality of the > > > consequences that result when some maniac decides he wants to conquer the > > > world and others, such as the American, British and their allies, stand-up > > > to him, whatever the price they have to pay, with the lives of their > > people, > > > be they sailors, soldiers, airmen ,or 'innocent civilians.' > > > > > > I swore, after the last time I had a contribution censored that I would > > > simply monitor, but not further contribute, to this Talk-Site, but even I > > am > > > moved to react when I read something with which I so strongly disagree. I > > > shall now descend once more back into silence. > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > > Norwich, England > > > (Honorary Member and for seventeen years the 303rd Bomb Group > > Association's > > > English representative) > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 19:17:56 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:17:56 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden - 13/14 February 1945 In-Reply-To: <3E16FCB1.F61F60C4@attglobal.net> References: <3E14CE23.8D435C36@attglobal.net> <3497.1041587903@www55.gmx.net> <001001c2b3c8$1e3499b0$1424fd3e@RAY> <003f01c2b3cf$66c5dac0$bb91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030104091756.0086a320@ilhawaii.net> Come on, Bill, lighten up! We love you even though you are a curmudgeon, but I,for one stand by Gordy and Gary, and think they are doing a great job. Jim Walling At 07:24 AM 1/4/03 -0800, Bill Heller wrote: >Gordy ... > >Your mssage is an epistle which thoroughly proves that you and your staff are >censoring what we may or may not write in this "forum" ... I put "forum" in >quotes because it is meant to appear so. There is NO forum where ANY form of >censorship exists. Your message is COMPLETE with all references to "what you >will allow us to write" ... consequently this "forum" IS censored. > >Previous to this time, I merely opted not to particpate in such a censored >program. NOW, you can immediately DELETE me from any further connection with >the "forum" ... In a sense, you are WRONG. However, I expext that, too, could >be cewnsored under your rules. > >WCH > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 4 21:35:19 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:35:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Keeping the list alive..... In-Reply-To: <003301c2b417$471a2b20$c691c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> Gordy Alton, Bill Heller and everyone, This is the last thing in the world I wanted to come home from work and face. Bill, you and I have been round and round on this before. I know your opinion and you know mine. I also know that neither one of us will change that opinion. In a nutshell, here is my position, which will NOT be changed: 1- This list is called 303rd-Talk because that is its intent --- to talk about the 303rd and WWII. That is the one and only reason I started this list over two years ago. 2- The list is paid for by the 303rd Bomb Group Association. I will not allow funds donated to the 303rd BGA to be used for a discussion forum to talk about the weather, current politics, tipping customs, the best restaurant in Chicago, or any other subject that is not directly related to our topic. The reason people join 303rd-Talk is to talk about the 303rd. We who were not there treasure what we can learn about the history from those who were there. 3- When each of you signed up, you should have read the web page here: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk which clearly states: "Our 303rd-Talk Mailing List has been established to allow anyone interested in the 303rd Bomb Group to discuss 303rd BG related topics with each other. 303rd-Talk is free, informal and open to everyone. Use the forum to make comments, and ask and answer questions. List Members include former members of the original 303rd Bomb Group, members of the 303rd Bomb Group Association and others with our common interests. Only list members can post to the list. Advertising, profanity and flaming are not permitted. Please only post messages related to our topic. Discussion of current politics is NOT permitted." Also, you received a welcome message that states the same thing. 4- In the past, whenever the topic drifts to something unrelated to the 303rd, list members start un-subscribing themselves. They didn't intend join an open forum, they joined a 303rd discussion group. There is really no more to be said. The list will stay as it is with each post being approved. As Gordy stated earlier, spam, virus' and porn messages make that necessary regardless of the content of the post. Bill Heller, per your request I will have deleted your subscription to 303rd-Talk. I respect you greatly and I'm sorry we have been unable to iron this one out. We will miss your input and vast knowledge. Susan and I still treasure the friendship of you and Ruth. I truly hope we can shake hands in Portland. If any of you agree or disagree with my position, please send it to me directly at glm@303rdBGA.com (or to Gordy Alton at Gordy@303rdBGA.com.) Please do not reply to this post to the list. I sincerely encourage everyone to take part in discussions about our topic. The sad fact is that old age is taking thousands of our veterans every month. This opportunity to learn about WWII and talk with the men who were actually there will not last long. With deep appreciation and respect to everyone. -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 02:30:18 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 03:30:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> Message-ID: <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> There was an order and that was to bomb Dresden in just the form, it was done. None of You did anything wrong and it would have been wrong, not to obbey. Sometimes politicians give wrong orders and one of these was the bombardement of Dresdens population in spite of the industry, at a time, when the war really was won. I know the same from the town of my childhood, Muelheim/Ruhr, between Duisburg and Essen. We had a very strong nest of flag in the wood , one mile far from us. In spite of bombing the industry near to the flag, most bombs hit the open field or wood and quarters of living, but not the industry. People were astonished to this. It was not only a single case, that P38-pilots avoided those dangerous points and prefered to dirigate their bullets to single aims, mostly single people on open areas, like one time my mother and me in my pram. This was to be seen dayly, as I was told a few days ago. But we know, such irregularities are normal and these were not done systematically. There was a fault to warn only a group of people during the moslemic raid on the towers of WTC and all the others died, though it could have been avoided. Nobody of You did anything wrong to bomb Dresden, You did not give that order. My father was sent to fight against the British during the invasion between Bayeux and Arromanches. He could not leave the place, for he was set just into the middle of most young "Hitler-Jungen". These were not able to withstand the affords and so all the vetrerans as my father died and the British saved the boys in the same way, they did. My father got a most nice grave inmidst of his British enemies on the most nice cemetery of Bazenville and most people were lucky not to be invaded by Germans or Russians in the East, where the fight was really inhuman. There were too many American deads at Omaha beach by non-optimal planning, we know today and there are two points of view for the most good pilote's work in Dresden and today we know, it was good in precision and in fulfilling the order, which came from above. Yes, I proved it, there were only a very few bombs, which failed more than 10 yards. You could see it even yesterday, when the communistic made Germany came back to the West, to reconstruct it again. So, please, do not struggle, there is nothing to be ashamed of. Bernd -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 03:47:41 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:47:41 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? Is it because we are still learning? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001701c2b46d$4ea7f420$bd91c8cf@altonmain> Bernd, Thanks for your views and honesty on the heavy bombardment of European cities, from the "other side". Your facts and opinions run contrary to some of the history we read on this side of the ocean. There is bound to be more than one view of history. I have tried to read different views of the air war over Europe, but it is sometimes a hard task. My studies of WWII were of the ground war up until the last ten years or so. Much to my father's consternation, I was a student of the ground war for many years. It was not until the last ten or fifteen years that I started to dedicate my research and learning to the air war over Europe. Most history of any war is usually written by the victor. I am glad to see that we are getting a view from the German side. As you say in your email, your father and his compatriots on the German side died defending their country, as the men on our side died trying to defeat Nazi Germany. Dad always told me that he held nothing against the Germans he was fighting. He killed them in order to keep himself alive. That is war. I hope that we can avoid total war again by learning from the past, but I fear it is not to be so. Dad was a guest of the Germans for almost 20 months, at a prison camp in Austria - Stalag 17-B near Krems, Austria. Many of his fellow airmen died. In fact, of the 325 men that went overseas with him in July of 1943, only two of them completed the 25 missions required of them before they could return stateside. The two that did complete their missions did not make it home alive. One of them was named Cox, and he was in a plane that flew into the side of a mountain in Scotland, while trying to return to the USA. The other man, Sandy Sanchez, reenlisted to fly another tour, which he completed. He offered to stay for a third tour, and was killed over Berlin in March of 1945. So, of all those men who went overseas with Dad, not one made it home unscathed. The rest were killed, wounded, or imprisoned. My father told me that by the end of Nov. of '43, almost everyone he knew was dead or in prison camp with him. The American air war took more casualties in the air over Europe and Africa, than all other casualties in WWII, including the war in the Pacific against the Japanese. I have researched my father's last mission extensively. It was to Frankfurt, on Oct. 4, 1943. I have talked to German researchers about that date, and they tell me that 549 civilians were killed in Frankfurt that day. The 8th Air Force lost six planes, and so had 60 casualties. In my father's plane, the navigator, a man by the name of Monson, was killed by fighter attack. Two other men, the waist gunner (shot in the legs) and the radio operator (shot in the head), were eventually repatriated to the USA through the Red Cross. They were deemed as non-combatants because of their wounds. Many people died on both sides, but we as the victors got to write most of the history. With the advent of instant worldwide communications, courtesy of the internet and the telephone, we are now learning of each others suffering. May we learn enough to never go to war against each other again. Gordy. Gordon Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to keep your freedom free..." ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? > There was an order and that was to bomb Dresden in just the form, it was > done. None of You did anything wrong and it would have been wrong, not to obbey. > Sometimes politicians give wrong orders and one of these was the > bombardement of Dresdens population in spite of the industry, at a time, when the war > really was won. I know the same from the town of my childhood, Muelheim/Ruhr, > between Duisburg and Essen. We had a very strong nest of flag in the wood , > one mile far from us. In spite of bombing the industry near to the flag, most > bombs hit the open field or wood and quarters of living, but not the industry. > People were astonished to this. It was not only a single case, that > P38-pilots avoided those dangerous points and prefered to dirigate their bullets to > single aims, mostly single people on open areas, like one time my mother and > me in my pram. This was to be seen dayly, as I was told a few days ago. But we > know, such irregularities are normal and these were not done systematically. > There was a fault to warn only a group of people during the moslemic raid > on the towers of WTC and all the others died, though it could have been > avoided. Nobody of You did anything wrong to bomb Dresden, You did not give that > order. My father was sent to fight against the British during the invasion > between Bayeux and Arromanches. He could not leave the place, for he was set just > into the middle of most young "Hitler-Jungen". These were not able to > withstand the affords and so all the vetrerans as my father died and the British > saved the boys in the same way, they did. My father got a most nice grave > inmidst of his British enemies on the most nice cemetery of Bazenville and most > people were lucky not to be invaded by Germans or Russians in the East, where > the fight was really inhuman. There were too many American deads at Omaha > beach by non-optimal planning, we know today and there are two points of view for > the most good pilote's work in Dresden and today we know, it was good in > precision and in fulfilling the order, which came from above. Yes, I proved it, > there were only a very few bombs, which failed more than 10 yards. You could > see it even yesterday, when the communistic made Germany came back to the > West, to reconstruct it again. So, please, do not struggle, there is nothing to > be ashamed of. > Bernd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 04:41:27 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:41:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? Is it because we are still learning? References: <3E16F127.12105.1B9EB50@localhost> <32717.1041733818@www16.gmx.net> <001701c2b46d$4ea7f420$bd91c8cf@altonmain> Message-ID: <3E17B777.CBDBEE71@tampabay.rr.com> My dad was a flight ENGR with the 427th. He said after everyone you know has died you stop making new friends because you don't want to lose any more of them. It sounds sad but with 70% loses you have to do what you can to stay alive. Gordon Alton wrote: > Bernd, > Thanks for your views and honesty on the heavy bombardment of European > cities, from the "other side". Your facts and opinions run contrary to some > of the history we read on this side of the ocean. There is bound to be more > than one view of history. I have tried to read different views of the air > war over Europe, but it is sometimes a hard task. My studies of WWII were of > the ground war up until the last ten years or so. Much to my father's > consternation, I was a student of the ground war for many years. It was not > until the last ten or fifteen years that I started to dedicate my research > and learning to the air war over Europe. > Most history of any war is usually written by the victor. I am glad to > see that we are getting a view from the German side. As you say in your > email, your father and his compatriots on the German side died defending > their country, as the men on our side died trying to defeat Nazi Germany. > Dad always told me that he held nothing against the Germans he was fighting. > He killed them in order to keep himself alive. That is war. I hope that we > can avoid total war again by learning from the past, but I fear it is not to > be so. > Dad was a guest of the Germans for almost 20 months, at a prison camp in > Austria - Stalag 17-B near Krems, Austria. Many of his fellow airmen died. > In fact, of the 325 men that went overseas with him in July of 1943, only > two of them completed the 25 missions required of them before they could > return stateside. The two that did complete their missions did not make it > home alive. One of them was named Cox, and he was in a plane that flew into > the side of a mountain in Scotland, while trying to return to the USA. The > other man, Sandy Sanchez, reenlisted to fly another tour, which he > completed. He offered to stay for a third tour, and was killed over Berlin > in March of 1945. So, of all those men who went overseas with Dad, not one > made it home unscathed. The rest were killed, wounded, or imprisoned. > My father told me that by the end of Nov. of '43, almost everyone he > knew was dead or in prison camp with him. The American air war took more > casualties in the air over Europe and Africa, than all other casualties in > WWII, including the war in the Pacific against the Japanese. I have > researched my father's last mission extensively. It was to Frankfurt, on > Oct. 4, 1943. I have talked to German researchers about that date, and they > tell me that 549 civilians were killed in Frankfurt that day. The 8th Air > Force lost six planes, and so had 60 casualties. In my father's plane, the > navigator, a man by the name of Monson, was killed by fighter attack. Two > other men, the waist gunner (shot in the legs) and the radio operator (shot > in the head), were eventually repatriated to the USA through the Red Cross. > They were deemed as non-combatants because of their wounds. > Many people died on both sides, but we as the victors got to write most > of the history. With the advent of instant worldwide communications, > courtesy of the internet and the telephone, we are now learning of each > others suffering. May we learn enough to never go to war against each other > again. > > Gordy. > > Gordon Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Please remember those who gave so > much to keep your freedom free..." > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 05:25:58 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:25:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] contraversy on the form Message-ID: <002a01c2b47a$edbd2140$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to hear that the temperature is rising on the form, but it is sort = of history repeating itself. Harry Gobrecht on page 649 recounts that tempors were a little hot in = Feb 1945 after the Dresden raids,=20 Gen. Aronl asked Gen. Arnold for an explanation, maybe not to politely. = Those on the mission were given military targets as primary and = secondary, visual bombing was not possible and PFF bombin wasnot the = most accurate. 10 units of leaflets were dropped as well the other armament. Today I do = not recall exactly all that went with the mission other then that it = was long and tiring and that we did have to fly thru a lot of the = defenses of Germany to get there, our fighter cover protected us = because previous months of bombing had crippled plane production and = fuel supplies to the Lufftwaffe. Perhaps a part of history is also the now releasing of repressed = feelings, those that have not been talked about for all these years now = being released for airing. At times some these doubts were somewhat = aired out in combat crew quarters after missions, even tho we = questioned the orders we were given had to be followed for the goofd and = saftey of all those who were participating in the action whether in the = air or on the ground Isn't this all a part of hanger talk? not just take-off, landings and = loop the loop stuff. It would be a darned shame if the site were to shut = down. I have printed off so much of the stuff and provided it to = friends who were in other branches of service or who had not been in = combat and have eaten up the action stuff as well as the personal = comments=20 Gary, keeps up the good work, it's not easy dealing with us old coots = but we are trying to the reading public today what was happening to us = and what wason our minds when we were of an age in the 20's and not yet = 30. We are lucky we can still remember with any clarity. LeRoy Christenson Navigator, 359th, 32 missions flown. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to hear that the temperature is = rising on the=20 form, but it is sort of history repeating itself.
Harry Gobrecht on page 649 recounts = that tempors=20 were a little hot in Feb 1945 after the Dresden raids,
Gen. Aronl asked Gen. Arnold for an = explanation,=20 maybe not to politely. Those on the mission were given military targets = as=20 primary and secondary, visual bombing was not possible and PFF bombin = wasnot the=20 most accurate.
10 units of leaflets were dropped as = well the other=20 armament. Today I do not recall exactly all that went  with the = mission=20 other then that it was long and tiring and that we did have to fly thru = a lot of=20 the defenses  of Germany to get there, our fighter cover protected = us=20 because previous months of bombing had crippled plane production and = fuel =20 supplies to the Lufftwaffe.
Perhaps a part of history is also the = now releasing=20 of repressed feelings, those that have not been talked about for all = these years=20 now being released for airing. At times some these doubts were somewhat = aired=20 out in combat crew quarters after missions,  even tho we questioned = the=20 orders we were given had to be followed for the goofd and saftey of all = those=20 who were participating in the action  whether in the air or on the=20 ground
 
Isn't this all a part of hanger = talk?  not=20 just take-off, landings and loop the loop stuff. It would be a darned = shame if=20 the site were to shut down. I have printed off so much of the = stuff  and=20 provided it to friends who were in other branches of service or who had = not been=20 in combat and have eaten up the action stuff as well as the personal = comments=20
Gary, keeps up the good work, it's not = easy dealing=20 with us old coots but we are trying to the reading public today what was = happening to us and what wason our minds when we were of an age in the = 20's and=20 not yet 30. We are lucky we can still remember with any = clarity.
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator, 359th, 32 missions=20 flown.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2B448.A2E8B580-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:21:02 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 22:21:02 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden Message-ID: <000701c2b482$9f62ddc0$ba2764d8@computer> I am disheartened about the controversy covering the Dresden raid. Luckily I was not involved at that time, having finished my 25 missions Setember 7, l943. I do want to remind the list that, as is the case regarding the Enola Gay, HINDSIGHT IS ALWAYS 20 - 20. Keep up the good work Gary. Ed Lamme', bombardier 427th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:21:49 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:21:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Full Military Power Message-ID: <00ac01c2b482$bbd2d5a0$27641943@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it safe to put my head up? what exactly does the term "military power" mean as oppposed to any other kind of power. For instance what would be the procedure for a take off on a short runway? Thanks Bill Hoyt ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is it safe to put my head up?
 what exactly does the term "military power" mean as oppposed = to=20 any other kind of power. For instance what would be the procedure = for a=20 take off on a short runway?
Thanks   
 
Bill Hoyt
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C2B448.0E8A8800-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 5 06:24:11 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:24:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: 
all groups need require new life,members, and prior original founding members 
rightly can exert, even unintendedly,  their possessive feelings as relates 
to groups origin,reason for forming and their efforts to  stimulate it's 
growth and purposes to be  accepted by others  that join. but, unfortunately 
,some new members wanting to become contributing individuals are deterred by 
older established reputationed pioneers , who have by their individual 
demeaner language caused  abilited new members to halt and be quiet and not 
be active constuctive participants. our303rd needs ,as it 's membership ages 
and  departs this world, every ability, strength,desirous participants that 
are eager to further our 303rd bga  mission. this was my entry to this assn. 
that i cherish and support. may this 2003 be the greatest  ever for melding 
our  differing personalities ideas ,a meaningful understanding of each as we 
try to be productive contributing 303rders true to our purposes and mission. 
my praise to all .


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 07:49:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:49:55 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...
Message-ID: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>

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Hi Bob,
You were talking about your jacket the other day, and I thought you might be
interested in this one listed on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4729&item=752018072

eBay photo is also up for bid. It is of the "Knock Out Dropper".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4727&item=752385479

Does anyone recognize anyone in the photo?

Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."

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------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C2B44B.FB7C4F10--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 13:51:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 08:51:45 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Your jacket is worth preserving...not pawning.
References: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <003301c2b4c1$95f2cb80$6501a8c0@desktop1>

Its not my place, as I am not in anyones shoes but my own, and I know Life
can throw all sorts of curves at a person. Each of us makes decisions the
best they can- but it saddens me to see folks selling off something like
this. We have some of my dads photos and his service pins and medals but
thats all.  I would sooner sell a kidney than those items.

 My father related to me that upon leaving the UK (or was it Casablanca ?)
he was prevented from taking much of his personal gear. In fact, he said
that much of it was taken from folks and buried or burned.  This happen to
anyone else ? Only ground crews ?

Bill



----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Alton" 
To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 2:49 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...


> Hi Bob,
> You were talking about your jacket the other day, and I thought you might
be
> interested in this one listed on eBay:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4729&item=752018072
>




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 14:34:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:34:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...
References: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3575.1041777290@www63.gmx.net>

> Hi Bob,
> You were talking about your jacket the other day, and I thought you might
> be  interested in this one listed on eBay:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4729&item=752018072
> Gordy.


Here in Germany You can not see those ebay articles. Ebay cuts shopping of
all militaria add-ons here. My friend is collecting the same assessoires  as
you, so he sold an American pilot's jacket a short time ago.  He got many
uniformes all over the world, most those of marines and air force.
He has to call it an uniform for carnival or similar, only then it will pass
the auctions. 
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 14:59:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:59:41 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden and V2s
Message-ID: 

I have heard about how bad the Dresden raid was. I work at Elder-Beerman 
Department Store in Terre Haute, Indiana and have talked to German people who 
live in my town now. These Germans tell me how bad the raids were. I 
understand their feelings,---to an extent, and I think to myself, my dad may 
have helped bomb Dresden ( he was a flight engineer on a B-24 in the 15th 
AF), but I don't tell them that. But, you know what gentlemen? I read in my 
local paper several years ago about the V2 rockets Hitler was going to send 
across the Atlantic to attack the United States. There were four cities in 
Indiana that he was going to attack with V2s. 
Indianapolis, Ft.Wayne, Evansville, and TERRE HAUTE!!!!! Really made me think 
gentlemen. It was either him or us. By the way gentlemen, I really enjoy 
reading you posts. I learn a lot. My dad died January 28th, 1994 and I miss 
talking to him about the air war. If I say something or ask anything some 
what silly please forgive.
Terry Lucas


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 15:08:25 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:08:25 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why are You struggling? Is it because we are still learning?
In-Reply-To: <001701c2b46d$4ea7f420$bd91c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3E180419.32379.9160DE@localhost>

   I tried to stay out of this Dresden discussion, but decided to add 
a couple points.   I thought that rather than relying on ever 
changing "history" and memories, that a quote from the 360thBS diary 
(from the microfilm records), which was written in Feb 45, might be 
more descriptive of what the reason for the mission really were.  The 
360th BS diary said " The 360th dispatched ten A/C in the lead 
squadron of the 41st "B" Group today to attack military objectives in 
the city of Dresden, Germany, to disrupt organized defense of this 
city against the Russian threat from the east. Capt Bernard C. 
Fontana and Capt Nelson B. OBeirne led our squadron and the group. 
The target was attacked by PFF means with Lt Rufus S Charlton, mickey 
navigator, making the run.  60x500 G.P. and 40x500 M17IB were 
dropped.  The A/C took off between 0813 and 0835 hours and returned 
to base between 1708 and 1743 hours.  There was no E/A and A/A 
gunfire was meager to moderate and inaccurate in the Frankfurt area 
nand in the vicinity of the battle lines. Friendly fighter support 
was excellent."

     This paragraph was written the day of the attack, and clearly 
defines what the 303rd considered the objectives to be, ie military 
objectives, not the terror raid against civilians that it is 
sometimes described as today.  Whether those who planned the raid had 
different objectives, such as appeasing  the Russians, and to what 
extent they had knowledge of the civilian refuges and the liklihood 
of a resulting firestorm is another topic, but it is clear that the 
AAF had clear doctrine to only attack military objectives, and that 
was the intent of the 303rd and other bomb groups. 
      I don't know if this was the case with Dresden, but it is my 
understanding that the Nazis were organizing the civilians for the 
defense of the German cities, a defense that included the hated 
Hitler Youth.  The city was going to be defended, and the civilians 
who allowed Hitler to come to power were a part of this defense.  
    My father never talked about the war, and I remember one time I 
took a job where I was working with a man who had been a teen-ager in 
Germany during the war.  I had many interesting conversations with 
the man, who described how they camaflaged the industry and other 
military targets to hide them from the streams of bombers.  The man 
also described himself and the other civilians as being victims of 
Hitler rather than supporting Nazis.
   After these discussions with the German, I thought that my father 
might find the topic interesting, so I started to tell my father 
about what the man had told me.  Before I had finished, my father got 
more angry than I had ever seen him, and he responded something to 
the effect that after the war the entire population of Germany was 
claiming to have been against Hitler, but that these civilians 
supported Hitler prior to and during the war, and were responsible 
for allowing Hitler to come to power.  These civilians were being 
integrated into the Nazi defense, would have caused many casualties 
for the attacking ground troops, and were a legitimate target.  The 
suggestion that the war was almost over neglects the fact that allied 
soldiers were still getting killed, and the goal of the military has 
to be to win with a minimum of friendly casualties. To not have 
bombed Dresden would have resulted in more Allied casualties, and 
would have been the wrong decision. The firestorm that resulted from 
the bombing was obviously excessive, but I don't think that anyone 
could have anticipated that.  
   The Dresden firestorm was unfortunate, but unfortunate things 
happen in war. It is unfair to criticize the decision to bomb when 
the decision was made with the intent to minimize friendly 
casualties. Failure to bomb, followed by the deaths of additional 
ground troops would have been more open to criticism. 
     
     BTW, the Capt Fontanna who lead the 303rd that day was one of 
the 2  360th pilots who made it back from Magdeburg, 4 months 
earlier.  


 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 15:38:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:38:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden
References: <000701c2b482$9f62ddc0$ba2764d8@computer>
Message-ID: <8788.1041781118@www63.gmx.net>

You must not be dishearted by the discussion about the Dresden raid. It was
a good demonstration to the Soviets, who had no right to critisize the
politics of the West and what Germans did to innocent people, we really must not
argue about it. Fact is, the resistance grew with the population seeing most of
the industry spared of demolition, in Dresden it was an easy job, nearly all
of the flak had been withdrawn to the front against the Soviets. Flak from
below is no nice feeling, everyone will understand that and so Dresden became
a bigger success. I never flew a bomber, but is it not true, that you did not
get to knowledge in Your plane, that there was no Flak in Dresden? 
At the place, where I lived, that was the later English headquarter, you 
did not find bombing. There was the Flak near, and big respect.  There was
nearly no bombing, only hunters, seeking for less dangerous objects.
Soldiers are all the same and I see possibilities to avoid all wars in the
future except of the next one.
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 16:01:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:01:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden and V2s
References: 
Message-ID: <25865.1041782471@www63.gmx.net>

Terry, do not compare the American soldiers with Hitler. Hitler wanted to do
anything bad to the world. These all were dreams. V2 to Indianapolis? He
stopped developping the atomic bomb. Hitler did not win, but "we". We must not
apologize smaller mistakes with big inhumanity from the other side. We are
"we", is that clear? 
In Dresden there were much less masses of bombs than in other German cities.
The "success" was the precision, and much less disturbance by the Flak,
that's all.
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 15:43:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 08:43:18 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...
In-Reply-To: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3E17F026.4534.FD39B@localhost>

> 
> eBay photo is also up for bid. It is of the "Knock Out Dropper".
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4727&item=752385479
> 
> Does anyone recognize anyone in the photo?

That photo is after the 50th Mission of Knockout Dropper.
(If the link above doesn't work, search eBay.com for item # 
752385479)
Harry Gobrecht has a copy of that photo, but it is not on the 
web page.  As I recall, it appeared in the LA Times with some 
of  the crewmen's names in error.
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 16:42:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:42:09 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob, your jacket is worth preserving...
In-Reply-To: <003101c2b48f$0a6947b0$e191c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: 

Happy New, Gordy and all that jazz.  Many thanks for fwding the  Knockout
Dropper nose art.  Advice re/touching up old art work on the jacket is well
taken...it stays as is.  As mentioned, my three boys, Bob, Pete and Dave,
all had a hand at destroying the poor thing, but I love it as it is with
tattered liner and stiff as a board.  Mfg. By AERO LEATHER CO., BEACON, NEW
YORK, SIZE 38.  Have a great 2003 ! Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 18:01:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:01:13 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] V2s
Message-ID: <1a2.e8e05ea.2b49cce9@aol.com>

Bernd, the last thing I am doing is comparing the American soldier to Hitler, 
my dad was an American airman. And yes, Hitler was going to send V2s to 
Indianapolis, the capital of Indiana, also Ft. Wayne,  Evansville, and Terre 
Haute which were industrial cities.
Terry


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan  5 23:42:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:42:14 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bons Mot
References: 
Message-ID: <002701c2b514$1385bba0$6501a8c0@desktop1>

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------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C2B4EA.2A6E16C0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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 =20
"True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and =
withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the =
appellation."
- George Washington, (1732-1799)=20

"Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from your friend's forehead"
- Chinese Proverb.

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"True friendship is a plant of slow =
growth, and must=20
undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to =
the=20
appellation."
- George=20
Washington, (1732-1799) 


"Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly =
from your=20
friend's forehead"


- Chinese=20
Proverb.


------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C2B4EA.2A6E16C0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 02:21:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:21:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk]  Short Field Take off.
Message-ID: <17a.14ad5c25.2b4a421f@aol.com>

Bill,
     What kind of airplane? Single or 4 engine?  Any of them. Wait for the 
coldest part of the day. Get it as light in weight as possible and clean as 
possible. Figure how long it takes the flaps to go down so they are parallel 
with a fully down wing aileron. Get as much speed as you can before you turn 
down the runway. Watch the wind sock for the best wind, pray, open the 
throttle wide with the highest RPM you have available If it's a tail dragger 
get the tail up as quickly as you can, put the desired flaps down as late as 
you can. If it's a bird like a P51 you can get it off the ground before you 
have enough rudder to hold the torque. It will start a roll to the left so be 
prepared to back off on the throttle a bit to keep your left wing out of the 
ground as you lift off. If you have room don't climb. Stay in ground effect 
until you pick up a bit more airspeed. Know your bird, some loose a bit of 
lift and drag increases when the doors open to let the gear retract. It might 
pay to leave the gear down for a few seconds.
     If you don't make it and you are still alive you might trade the 
wreckage in on a super Cub. If it's a B24 you might try to swap it for a B17 
Before you start your take off roll. 
     Best Wishes,   
         Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 03:20:47 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:20:47 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden
Message-ID: <003601c2b532$9bd3b390$b791c8cf@altonmain>

Hello, All.
     I am currently involved with a research project that started with all
of this business to do with Dresden. The original request was for info and
help with some planes that went down during the raid. I am happy to report
that the contact with Matthias in Germany has progressed to the point where
he has sent me a number of photos of the recovery of one of the 91st BG
planes, Skunk Face III.
    I am in touch with the sole surviving member of this plane, although he
has Alzheimer's disease. His wife is more than happy to help out and
facilitate with the investigation. I am also getting some help from some
researchers in the east, and will have all of the loading lists, MACRs, and
other docs to put together a pretty good report to you all, and the folks in
Germany. The excavation objects and the information we generate on this side
of the Atlantic will be put together for a museum exhibit.
    So, please don't thing that a disagreement or two on the talk ring
affects the way in which Gary and I ( as his helper) do our research and
work behind the scenes. We do what we have to do to keep things viable.
Believe me when I say that we do our best to keep things on the up-and-up
for all of you. It really is what I live for. Our dedication to you all is
foremost.

Yours,
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 10:46:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:46:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden and V2s
References: <25865.1041782471@www63.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <15310.1041850010@www20.gmx.net>

No, Terry, there were really no military aims in the center of the old part
of Dresden. Of cause Your father was told so. My father was told to win the
war at the Atlantic coast and what he found, were weaping young boys. Most of
their life were saved, even by the British, when they saw, what was going on.

No, in Dresden You have still the possibility to prove all by yourself, most
is not reconstructed, even today. You remember, that part of Germany was
freed by the Allieds to become communistic and so it was not reconstructed until
today. 
Hitler dreamed all the day of bombing the USA, as some Saudis still do. He
and his team made serials of heaviest mistakes, my father knew these of
Hermann Goering most well. German jet-hunters, the ME 262,  were wasted to bomb
(!!) London. What would it have ment to place 20 V2 into the center of
Indianapolis? Nothing: Each rocket had a capacity of only 1.5 tons of TNT, which means
30 tons of bomb load only!

In Dresden Your fathers placed a load of 7000 tons. Much less than in most
other German cities (40.000 tons and up!) Though only this small load, the
deads were more than in any other German town. Dresden was crowded with
refugees, and that was the most narrow and oldest part of the town, that was the
reason.
Even American bombers were known to avoid risks and bombed the less
dangerous objects. Look to the famous factories of Rheinmetall in Duesseldorf, nearly
nothing was destroyed ther in spite of the rest of the town. al was intact
and produced still after the war.
About eighty percent of the war production-places were intact, still after
the war, for they were placed outside the cities, mostly underground. Really
nothing was hit there.
The problem for Hitler was supply, material and people. 
I guess, Your father began bombing at the "Wormser Strasse" in the South of
the area. The street is narrow, about 12 yards and two km long. On the side,
were I lived for a time, only one house had been destroyed, all the others
were safe. At the opposite side, all, really all buildings were ruins, here
must have been the beginning of the bombing, and it was incredibly accurate.
The dead came by the firestorm, a consequense of the most dense bombing.

Mr. Harris was right in sending only 7000 tons of bombs, but if he knew,
what was the consequence of this, he better would not have done it. Your fathers
have done right, they could not know the consequences. They would have been
poor bombers, if they would not have done, what was ordered to them.
There should not be any more emotions, today we can regard the facts of the
past to look to our peaceful future.
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 15:56:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:56:55 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
References: <25865.1041782471@www63.gmx.net> <15310.1041850010@www20.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3E19A747.B5A7DF8C@tampabay.rr.com>

My dad tells me stories about when he saw is first 262 coming at the squad.  He said they
were so fast that you could NOT shoot them down.  The best thing you could do is to fire
the 50's and hope the 262 would suck some lead into the intake when he went by!  They
would fire missiles from the 262 into the squadron?. They were flying a square by that
time so they could concentrate their fire power. He said something about them "lobing
shells into the formation.. Would that be some sort of a large cannon on the 262's at one
time?

True story by the way
427th!

We are lucky it took them so long to come out with them. a year earlier would have made a
lot of difference if they could have built a few 1000 of them!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 17:19:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:19:13 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] V 2's
Message-ID: <002901c2b5a7$bc78e280$acbcf5cd@computer>

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Speaking of V 2's, I have a fragment from a V 2 that exploded in London.

No, I cannot verify this, but a crew chief told me he ruined two hack =
saw blades cutting it in half so I could share with the BT gunner with =
me in London.

V 2's were supposed to be of a tough metal, so I was told.

Fory
Kuykendall's RO
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Speaking of V 2's, I have a fragment =
from a V 2=20
that exploded in London.


 


No, I cannot verify this, but a crew =
chief told=20
me he ruined two hack saw blades cutting it in half so I could share =
with the BT=20
gunner with me in London.


 


V 2's were supposed to be of a tough =
metal, so I=20
was told.


 


Fory


Kuykendall's =
RO


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 20:40:31 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:40:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Firestorm"
In-Reply-To: <15310.1041850010@www20.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20030106204031.70569.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

TO ALL OF THE 303RD-TALK LIST:

I had no idea my comments about Dresden would spark
such a "firestorm."  I want each of you know know that
I was NOT critizising you, the 303rd, or the
leadership of the 8th AF for bombing Dresden.  It was
total war, and you did as you were ordered.

My comments, however, were based on the moral issue of
destroying a population center that had little or no
military significance so late in the war.  My comments
were directed at the politicians who authorized the
raid.  Yes, as Bill Heller so accurately pointed out,
I was doing some Monday morning quarterbacking, but in
an effort of trying to understand the bigger issue. 
WE NEED TO LEARN FROM MISTAKES MADE IN HISTORY.

Now, with that said, no one, I REPEAT NO ONE, should
get their feathers ruffled over comments in this
forum.  I have had my share of mail not posted on this
site and it doesn't bother me a bit.  I've had my butt
kicked many times by some of the comments I have made.
 BUT I HAVE LEARNED, and that is the point, isn't it?

In my opinion, Gary and Gordy do an OUTSTANDING job
with this forum, and with keeping us on track.  So
let's all settle down, take a deep breath, and use
this forum in the manner in which it was attended.

Again, I apologize 1,000 times if my comments offended
any of you.
Hopefully, still your internet friend,
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 22:05:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:05:36 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Firestorm"
In-Reply-To: <20030106204031.70569.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Correct me if I'm wrong...but in the movie "Slaughterhouse Five" (German:
Schlachthaus 5 (sp.?) there is a sequence where  captured American soldiers are
being marched through the rubble of bombed out Dresden and warned not to touch
anything.  One of the Nazi guards notices a GI picking up a piece of broken
pottery or china or whatever and he is summarily executed on the spot.

Don't mean this to be any part of the ongoing Dresden discussion...just
curious about a movie that played in 1972  According to my movie book, big
budget adaptation of Kurt Vonnegurt's novel, directed by Geo. Roy Hill, who
just passed away last week.  Cheers. Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan  6 22:58:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:58:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Firestorm"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030106225823.43747.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Bob Hand:  I haven't seen the movie you reference Bob,
but there were orders to shoot any looters in Dresden
after the raid.  Several of the German eye witness
accounts tell of German authorities shooting German
people who were just scrounging for food.  Several of
the POWs Kurt Vonnegurt's  mentions in his book were
interviewed for "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox."
 
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 00:07:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:07:01 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] V 2's
In-Reply-To: <002901c2b5a7$bc78e280$acbcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3124724822_2398513
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Again re/V-2s...Pilot Fink and I were in London at the Cumberland when a =
V2
> landed on Selfridge=B9s  Department Store during the night.  The blast was
> really close and shook our hotel.   I had just purchased a camera there t=
he
> previous afternoon.  The explosion left a foot of broken glass on the
> sidewalks and I=B9=B9m told that the IMplosion sucked a taxicab inside the
> building.  I have a piece of flak that came through the nose and smashed =
the
> chin turret sight on my last mission (BigB,3 Feb.=B945)  I drilled a hole i=
n it
> and also broke three drills in the process.   Cheers, Bob Hand



--B_3124724822_2398513
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [303rd-Talk] V 2's



Again re/V-2s...Pilot Fink and I were in L=
ondon at the Cumberland when a V2 landed on Selfridge’s  Departme=
nt Store during the night.  The blast was really close and shook our ho=
tel.   I had just purchased a camera there the previous afternoon.=
  The explosion left a foot of broken glass on the sidewalks and I̵=
7;’m told that the IMplosion sucked a taxicab inside the building. &nb=
sp;I have a piece of flak that came through the nose and smashed the chin tu=
rret sight on my last mission (BigB,3 Feb.’45)  I drilled a hole =
in it and also broke three drills in the process.   Cheers, Bob Ha=
nd









--B_3124724822_2398513--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 02:53:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:53:43 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262 vs the Lockheed P-80
Message-ID: <11f.1c5133c5.2b4b9b37@aol.com>

How do you think the P-80 would have faired against the ME 262 if they would 
have ever met? Does anyone have an idea about this? I have always wondered.
Terry


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 03:10:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:10:00 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firestorm
Message-ID: <145.70d78dd.2b4b9f08@aol.com>

Bob, I think your right about the scene you mentioned.
Terry


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 03:30:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:30:56 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:short field take off
Message-ID: <002101c2b5fd$316437c0$4a651943@default>

Thanks Jack  I guess I asked for it didnt I!
Now I know why I buy a ticket and sit in the back of the plane.
I like the way you threw "PRAY" in there in between checking the wind sock
and opening the throttles. Im still after the meaning of the term MILITARY
POWER as opposed to what? civilian power? I dunno

Thanks again
Bill Hoyt





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 11:59:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lawrence C. Farrell, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 07:59:08 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262 vs the Lockheed P-80
In-Reply-To: <11f.1c5133c5.2b4b9b37@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Personally, other than engine reliability, I think the 262 would have won.

Larry




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 12:46:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lawrence C. Farrell, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:46:18 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
In-Reply-To: <3E19A747.B5A7DF8C@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

A couple had a 50mm installed in  the nose.

Larry

> From: Steve 
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:56:55 -0500
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
> 
> Would that be some sort of a large cannon on the 262's at one
> time?



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 15:03:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:03:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262 vs the Lockheed P-80
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030107150326.64956.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>

Engine reliability was a big problem with the 262.So
was lack of air time. A German Pilot who flew the 262
informed me that an engine change was necessary after
only two flights and that they had just under one hour
of air time.......Bill Runnels




--- "Lawrence C. Farrell, Jr."
 wrote:
> Personally, other than engine reliability, I think
> the 262 would have won.
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 16:32:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:32:21 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
References: 
Message-ID: <3E1B0115.4192FB3A@tampabay.rr.com>

Four 30 mm cannon, 24 R4M unguided underwing rockets

"Lawrence C. Farrell, Jr." wrote:

> A couple had a 50mm installed in  the nose.
>
> Larry
>
> > From: Steve 
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:56:55 -0500
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
> >
> > Would that be some sort of a large cannon on the 262's at one
> > time?



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 20:33:03 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:33:03 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Duffys Tavern
Message-ID: <000501c2b68b$fc09b840$460c6ed8@webshark.com>

Thank you very much for answering my question about the waist gunners.

I realize that this is a shot in the dark, but is there anyone who saw
Duffys Tavern crash? Is there any surviving family of Dwight Phillips, who
was tho other surviver on 11-11-44.   I saw in an old newsletter how Mr.
Phillips had actually gotten a piece of the B-17 on a visit to England.

Also, I work at a TV studio, and can help with video projects or graphics. I
work with a group that is building a museum here, but I will make time to
help preserve history. The truth is the best weapon against the
revisionists!!

Thank you for your time.

Tom Beard





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 21:50:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:50:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262 vs the Lockheed P-80
References: <20030107150326.64956.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20895.1041976250@www18.gmx.net>

> 
> Engine reliability was a big problem with the 262.So
> was lack of air time. A German Pilot who flew the 262
> informed me that an engine change was necessary after
> only two flights and that they had just under one hour
> of air time.......Bill Runnels

Yes, that was normal, a Bf 109 was good for 25 hours, which normally was
enough, after that time the half of them got lost due to Your attacks . The
turbo with methylic alcohol cost hours lifetime in one minute. It was enough for
getting to England, have a small fight and back again. The Rolls Royces
lasted for a thousand hours, I heard. There was a incredible lack of raw materials
and all had been optimized. But the Fuehrer gave the order to use the Me 262
as a bomber...and they wasted them really. I think, You at the place of the
German pilots would not have obeyed...Hitler's filmstar did not correct the
failures. Often these became worsened by him. Both helped the Allies a lot.
In the last years of war the mistakes were eliminated, but it was too late,
there was the lack of fuel. Pilots and planes enough, but no jobs.
Bernd 

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan  7 21:26:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lawrence C. Farrell, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:26:34 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
In-Reply-To: <3E1B0115.4192FB3A@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

Check again; a couple had a 50mm mounted in the nose. There are picture out
there showing one of them.

> From: Steve 
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:32:21 -0500
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
> 
> Four 30 mm cannon, 24 R4M unguided underwing rockets



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 00:12:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:12:42 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Dresden '45
Message-ID: <3a.3257090f.2b4cc6fa@aol.com>

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This was the mission that our tailgunner Wolpert was credited with the 
destruction of a "262". Three of them came on a tail end attack, as they 
closed on us, two of them turned and dove away from us. The third one 
continued and John opened fired at the jet engines.  He reported smoke coming 
from the jet when the jet broke to our left and dived. The jet exploded in 
seconds. As for long distance shots it was pure guess work, our sights ran 
out of rings. Speed of the jet.
We were also attacked on another mission by the 262's. I looked out the nose 
side window and saw tracers being fired at us and in about a second or two 
the jet came by us  It looked like he was going to catch up with his 
projectiles. Scarry to say the least.
I'm sure glad they didn't have enough to continue a massive attack. I 
understand many were destroyed on the ground. I salute the men who keep them 
from us.














































                                                                              
                                                                              
                                                                              
                                                                     

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This was the mission that our tailgunner Wolpert was credited with the destruction of a "262". Three of them came on a tail end attack, as they closed on us, two of them turned and dove away from us. The third one continued and John opened fired at the jet engines.  He reported smoke coming from the jet when the jet broke to our left and dived. The jet exploded in seconds. As for long distance shots it was pure guess work, our sights ran out of rings. Speed of the jet.

We were also attacked on another mission by the 262's. I looked out the nose side window and saw tracers being fired at us and in about a second or two the jet came by us  It looked like he was going to catch up with his projectiles. Scarry to say the least.

I'm sure glad they didn't have enough to continue a massive attack. I understand many were destroyed on the ground. I salute the men who keep them from us.





























































































                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 00:23:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:23:00 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bons Mot
Message-ID: <11f.1c5e076a.2b4cc964@aol.com>


truism and we all need to be considerate of each


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 00:34:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:34:00 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Dresden '45
References: <3a.3257090f.2b4cc6fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E1B71F8.7ADCFE05@tampabay.rr.com>



I understand that was a problem and why they didn't carry 50's. They would
run into their own lead.

BOMDRPR303@aol.com wrote:

This was the mission
that our tailgunner Wolpert was credited with the destruction of a "262".
Three of them came on a tail end attack, as they closed on us, two of them
turned and dove away from us. The third one continued and John opened fired
at the jet engines.  He reported smoke coming from the jet when the
jet broke to our left and dived. The jet exploded in seconds. As for long
distance shots it was pure guess work, our sights ran out of rings. Speed
of the jet.

We were also attacked on another mission
by the 262's. I looked out the nose side window and saw tracers being fired
at us and in about a second or two the jet came by us  It looked like
he was going to catch up with his projectiles. Scarry to say the least.

I'm sure glad they didn't have enough
to continue a massive attack. I understand many were destroyed on the ground.
I salute the men who keep them from us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                               !
;                    
! ;





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 00:59:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:48 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] ME 262?
Message-ID: <33788A48.0EB6FA92.007CCF9D@aol.com>

this is true.  A few 410s also had a 5 cm cannon mounted to the nose.


Zachary Hughes


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 03:20:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:20:21 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] re: Steve    262
Message-ID: <005201c2b6c4$e28f90e0$708f0243@default>

Steve  here is a link to a 262 site and the one below shows the  Borsig
Mk108 30 cannon and Mauser MK 214 which is a 50mm cannon.
http://www.stormbirds.com/schwalbe/index.html
http://www.stormbirds.com/schwalbe/armament/armament.htm




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 04:14:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:14:08 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Full Military Power
Message-ID: <1a6.e9bd726.2b4cff90@aol.com>

Bill Hoyt,
     I didn't answer your question about Full Military Power. because I don't 
know or I have forgotten. I was hoping someone else would answer but a couple 
of days have gone by and I don't see an answer. 
     I have more time in B17s than any other military airplane. The Fs & Gs 
were equipped with Wright 1820-97 engines. We used 2500 RPMs and 46 inches MP 
for take off. The 2500 RPM was set by the mechanics and the pilots had no way 
to increase the RPMs above that from the cockpit. We could have increased the 
Manifold pressure above the 46 inches, but to do so more than an inch or so 
could have caused detonation and ruin an engine and caused it to fail in a 
few minutes. In fact there was a sign on the instrument that said Quote 2500 
& 46 inches and 2400 & 42 inches for 5 minutes only.
     Some planes, mostly fighters like some models of a Jug (P47) used water 
injection for high power settings. P51 Ds and K models used 3000 Rpms and 61 
inches for take off. P51H models used 91 inches and 3000 Rpms for take off. 
They also instructed us to use 3000 and 91 inches and 3000 inches for 30 
seconds every 30 minutes and just before landing to clean the spark plugs.
     I would suppose some crews or aircraft would use Full military power to 
momentarily over boost and/or over speed an engine for a short duration in an 
emergency but I have memory of such.
       I do remember reading an accident report where a pilot went back into 
the ground on an instrument take off for a mission in 1945. He reported he 
asked for Full Military Power. I wondered what he was talking about as he 
should have been using 2500 and 46 inches then anyway. It was a B17G. That's 
all he had. As I think about this I vaguely remember some birds that had a 
safety wire stop on the throttles that you could push the throttles forward 
and break the wire and get more RPMs if you really needed it.  Maybe it was 
something rigged up to catch the V-1s If one was going to over boost and 
engine one should certainly over speed it at the same time.
Sorry I don't have a firm answer
     fBest Wishes,
          Jack.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan  8 15:57:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:57:21 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Full Military Power
Message-ID: <138f8c754cf140aeb96cf203e0e8a053.p51@1usa.com>

Jack, I too have been reading and waiting for the same answer=2E One time I read in the POH for a P-51, not sure if it was a "D", that, when you broke the Seal, the Wire, it would give you a Max=2E of 66" and you could only use it for a Short Time, I think, 5 minutes=2E I had talked to a Canadian Pilot who would Ferry Aircraft, and he said the same thing=2E=
=20
Ed Frank



----- Original Message -----
From: Jprencher@aol=2Ecom
Sent: 1/7/2003 11:14:08 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA=2Ecom
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Full Military Power

> Bill Hoyt,
>      I didn't answer your question about Full Military Power=2E because I don't=
=20
> know or I have forgotten=2E I was hoping someone else would answer but a couple=
=20
> of days have gone by and I don't see an answer=2E=20




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 01:17:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:17:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nissen/Quanset Huts
In-Reply-To: <138f8c754cf140aeb96cf203e0e8a053.p51@1usa.com>
Message-ID: <20030109011750.75287.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

I have seen many pictures of Nissen and Quonset Huts,
I have even been in a few.  In some of the pictures
I've seen there is usually a wooden entrance (exit) on
the buildings.  Why is this?  Was it to keep out the
cold, for blackout protection, or a place to store
muddy boots?

Did most of the 303rd Nissens have a concrete floor or
did dimensional lumber make up the floor?
Thanks!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 01:21:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:21:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoking
In-Reply-To: <138f8c754cf140aeb96cf203e0e8a053.p51@1usa.com>
Message-ID: <20030109012104.41824.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Cigarettes were very popular during the war - Lucky
Strike, Chesterfields.  Was smoking permitted anywhere
on base, or was it restricted.  Some photos taken
during briefing show smoke so thick you could cut it
with a knife and everyone was smoking.  Other pictures
show no one smoking at briefing.  I'm sure smoking was
restricted on the flight line.
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 04:05:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 23:05:45 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoking
Message-ID: <124.1c9ec38f.2b4e4f19@aol.com>

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Kevin, I saw few restrictions on smoking in the Air Corps. I Used to smoke a 
minimum of a package of cigarettes on every mission. I kept a cigarette going 
at altitude by holding it close to my oxygen mask, actually in the residual 
oxygen in the mask dangling from one strap. I alternated using the mask on 
and off you might say to keep me and the cigarettes going. Oxygen does not 
burn but of course supports combustion. I never had any fires going in the 
radio room.
Cheers, Ol' Bob

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Kevin, I saw few restrictions on smoking in the Air Corps. I Used to smoke a minimum of a package of cigarettes on every mission. I kept a cigarette going at altitude by holding it close to my oxygen mask, actually in the residual oxygen in the mask dangling from one strap. I alternated using the mask on and off you might say to keep me and the cigarettes going. Oxygen does not burn but of course supports combustion. I never had any fires going in the radio room.

Cheers, Ol' Bob

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 04:18:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:18:38 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:FMP
Message-ID: <005401c2b796$3021e3e0$90970243@default>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Thanks Ed and Jack on the replies to Full Military Power. I am intrigued
with the term for some reason.
Bill Hoyt

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Thanks Ed and Jack on the replies to Full Military Power. I am =
intrigued=20
with the term for some reason. 


Bill Hoyt


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 04:27:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:27:30 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoking
References: <124.1c9ec38f.2b4e4f19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010201c2b797$6c976100$02827f18@we1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Bob:
   Herb Kennedy the Radio Man on Ken Edwards Crew use to do the same =
thing and he never set the plane on fire either.
                             Bob R=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: hans80@aol.com=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Smoking


  Kevin, I saw few restrictions on smoking in the Air Corps. I Used to =
smoke a minimum of a package of cigarettes on every mission. I kept a =
cigarette going at altitude by holding it close to my oxygen mask, =
actually in the residual oxygen in the mask dangling from one strap. I =
alternated using the mask on and off you might say to keep me and the =
cigarettes going. Oxygen does not burn but of course supports =
combustion. I never had any fires going in the radio room.
  Cheers, Ol' Bob=20

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Bob:


   Herb Kennedy the =
Radio Man on Ken=20
Edwards Crew use to do the same thing and he never set the plane on fire =

either.


          &nbs=
p;            =
;     =20
Bob R 


  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  hans80@aol.com 
  
  
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, =
2003 8:05=20
  PM

  
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] =
Smoking

  

Kevin, I saw few restrictions on smoking in the =
Air Corps.=20
  I Used to smoke a minimum of a package of cigarettes on every mission. =
I kept=20
  a cigarette going at altitude by holding it close to my oxygen mask, =
actually=20
  in the residual oxygen in the mask dangling from one strap. I =
alternated using=20
  the mask on and off you might say to keep me and the cigarettes going. =
Oxygen=20
  does not burn but of course supports combustion. I never had any fires =
going=20
  in the radio room.
Cheers, Ol' Bob =


------=_NextPart_000_00FF_01C2B754.5E0F6BC0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 05:35:08 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:35:08 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
Message-ID: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com>

Greeting Gang,
       During my Holiday absence I see several comments appeared about taking 
Waste gunners off the crews. What I would have said if I had been here. Hope 
I don't hurt anyone's feelings.
     Waist guns were by far the most inefficient guns on our planes. Because 
of their location all shots at enemy fighters would have to lead the 
attacking fighter by some 45 or so degrees if they hoped to hit it. It was 
just one gun and not in a turret. After mid 44 When they started removing one 
of the 2 waist gunners it was not unusual for a crew to finish their 35 
missions and the gunners thereon never fired their guns at an enemy fighter. 
I don't believe the Battle Of the Bulge had anything to do with it. as it 
occurred several months later I believe they correctly decided it was just a 
waste of manpower to have 2 waist gunners. Now I don't believe it was any 
safer trying to finish your assigned missions then as the Anti Aircraft 88 
MMs certainly took over as a dangerous enemy as the German Air Force ran out 
of fuel and experienced pilots. 
Enough said. Maybe too much.  Good Night Men.
     Best Wishes,
             Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 11:53:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mark Donnelly)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:53:29 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
References: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c2b7d5$ba89b820$fbe27ad1@D6FBZ411>

I am one of the passive members of the group. Here is my two cents worth on
the subject of waist gunners.  My Uncle Jim was a waist gunner most of his
tour.  He too wondered about how useful his role was.  He talked about the
speed with which fighters would go buy him and often wondered if he had ever
hit anything.

Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:35 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns


> Greeting Gang,
>        During my Holiday absence I see several comments appeared about
taking
> Waste gunners off the crews. What I would have said if I had been here.
Hope
> I don't hurt anyone's feelings.
>      Waist guns were by far the most inefficient guns on our planes.
Because
> of their location all shots at enemy fighters would have to lead the
> attacking fighter by some 45 or so degrees if they hoped to hit it. It was
> just one gun and not in a turret. After mid 44 When they started removing
one
> of the 2 waist gunners it was not unusual for a crew to finish their 35
> missions and the gunners thereon never fired their guns at an enemy
fighter.
> I don't believe the Battle Of the Bulge had anything to do with it. as it
> occurred several months later I believe they correctly decided it was just
a
> waste of manpower to have 2 waist gunners. Now I don't believe it was any
> safer trying to finish your assigned missions then as the Anti Aircraft 88
> MMs certainly took over as a dangerous enemy as the German Air Force ran
out
> of fuel and experienced pilots.
> Enough said. Maybe too much.  Good Night Men.
>      Best Wishes,
>              Jack
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 13:48:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:48:46 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoking
In-Reply-To: <20030109012104.41824.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Yo, Kevin: Never smoked even one to this day.  I lived in fear that if
wounded, a comrade would stick one of those things in my mouth like in the
combat movies.  Gave my RoiTan cigar ration to my BTG Dick Albright....he loved
them. Don't think I've missed anything, except maybe emphysema.  Cheers, Bob
Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 14:27:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:27:50 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
In-Reply-To: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>Welcome back, Uncle Jack:  In the matter of waist gunners, I am in touch with
one, a retired physician who claims that a common combat disability was loss of
one's hearing, due to the incredible, sustained noise level in the waist.  He
personally had to give up his career due to deafness.  Re: the continuing
Dresden discussion...I talked last night to Oscar Boesch (former Luftwaffe
pilot) and he brought up the question of the victims in the Dresden bombing as
opposed to the Berlin raid of 3 Feb.'45 where 25,000 refugees, women, children
and men unfit for military service lost their lives.  Anybody know how this
compares with Dresden?  I have the London Daily News from 4 Feb.,'45 that claims
the  US 8th and RAF targets of the previous day and night were "military,
government and communication targets"in the heart of Germany.  I don't mean to
prolong the discussion but thought this might be of interest.  Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 17:41:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden (Again)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030109174136.4062.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bob Hand and all:  The book I am just about finished
reading, "Dresden 1945, The Devil's Tinderbox,"
indicates 35,000 to 160,000 people were killed in the
13/14 Feb. 45 raids.  No one will ever know the actual
number.  There were so many dead that they were buried
in mass graves.  Many of the corpses were burned
beyond recognition and all identification papers had
burned too.  Many simply turned to ash while trapped
in cellars or where sucked into burning buildings. 
And with all of the refuges flooding into the town
because of the advancing Russians, no one will ever
know the real number of those lost.
Kevin


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 17:55:39 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:55:39 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 100th BG
Message-ID: <000501c2b808$54b82a80$24bb9ace@mjpmtman>

COMMENT-- On Discovery Wings - [2 AM this morning] I watched 
the last 30 - 40 minutes of Wings At War [The Bloody 100th] 
INCREDIBLE -  I never saw a square D tail marking!!!  We got front
row!!  Several Triangle Cs!!!. Think I caught a flash of a Triangle A.
Maurice 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 18:17:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:17:20 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Smoking during Missions
Message-ID: <7b.6cafabe.2b4f16b0@aol.com>

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I didn't know that anyone else had the habit bad enough to smoke all the time 
during a mission. I pulled my mask aside took a drag off my cigarette then 
replaced my mask. I also would take take a long breath of oxygen then blow it 
through my cigarette and watch the blue flame exit the end of the cigarette. 
As I look back, how stupid.
Cheers,
Bill D.

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I didn't know that anyone else had the habit bad enough to smoke all the time during a mission. I pulled my mask aside took a drag off my cigarette then replaced my mask. I also would take take a long breath of oxygen then blow it through my cigarette and watch the blue flame exit the end of the cigarette. As I look back, how stupid.

Cheers,

Bill D.

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 21:29:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:29:19 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dresden (Again)
In-Reply-To: <20030109174136.4062.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Enough said, Kevin, I was not aware of the incredible extent of loss of life
in Dresden, over and above Berlin...I should have read up on the facts before I
wrote.  We as a nation can be profoundly thankful that destruction of that
magnitude  never hit our shores.  Thanks for the info.  Bob Hand  



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan  9 22:10:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:10:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 100th BG
In-Reply-To: <000501c2b808$54b82a80$24bb9ace@mjpmtman>
Message-ID: <20030109221014.82327.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Maurice:  I am amazed at how many doumentaries on the
8th have film footage of 17s and 24s from the MTO and
PTO, even gun camera footage.  I was watching a show
the other night where they were describing dogfights
between P-51s and FW 190s, and they were showing a Jap
Zero!!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 04:32:12 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:32:12 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) waist gunners
Message-ID: <3E1DEA5C.2716.3329EC2@localhost>

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:           	"Leroy Audrey" 
To:             	<303-talk@303rdbga.com>
Subject:        	waist gunners
Date sent:      	Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:25:01 -0600

Well, Jack may be correct, shooting from the waist at a passing 
plane is like shooting upland game with with a 22. cal rifle. 
The  brain hass to do alot of calculating to get the lead on 
the speed of the bird--a shotgun isn' t too easy either even 
tho it scatters. Remember gunner school and the air to air 
flyby towed target practice, how many hits went thru the 
canvas? I wasglad to have a waist giunner if nothing more than 
as the deterent to make the Luftwaffe pilot leary of taking 
daring risks.. Enough waist gunners pointing in the same 
direction make for formidable power as against no waist 
gunners. Noone on the crew wa useless. LeRoy C.  

------- End of forwarded message --------- Gary --  Webmaster, 
303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 05:31:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:31:20 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nissen/Quanset Huts
Message-ID: <9.6dc8347.2b4fb4a8@aol.com>

Kevin, Our Nissen Huts in the 358th had a concrete floor.  When I was there a 
few years ago that was all that was left of them and they were outside of the 
fence that existed there then.  I had a hard time finding them.  The doors 
were to keep the cold out and the light in.
         Best Wishes,
               Jack.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 05:52:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:52:13 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gunners
Message-ID: <000b01c2b86c$6d264ac0$d92664d8@computer>

Regarding waist gunners.  Our crew was formed in October 1942 at Geiger AFB
in Spokane.  There were 9 members with only one waist gunner.  We trained as
original cadre at Casper AFB, WY ( in December '42) thence to Smoky Hill AFB
on to Homestead Fl and then to England via southern route.  Upon arrival at
Molesworth we were assigned an additional gunner,  to the waist.  Up until
our arrival at Molesworth all  crews with which we had any contact consisted
of 9 men.

Ed Lamme (B) 427th



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 06:58:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:58:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) waist gunners
In-Reply-To: <3E1DEA5C.2716.3329EC2@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030110065806.33814.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Gary Moncur  wrote:
> 
> ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> From:           	"Leroy Audrey"
> 
> To:             	<303-talk@303rdbga.com>
> Subject:        	waist gunners
> Date sent:      	Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:25:01 -0600
> 
> Well, Jack may be correct, shooting from the waist
> at a passing 
> plane is like shooting upland game with with a 22.
> cal rifle. 
> 
I agree with LeRoy. The waist gunners were part of the
defense team and I was glad to have them along...Bill Runnels

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 13:01:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:01:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
References: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <15648.1042203705@www39.gmx.net>

>      Waist guns were by far the most inefficient guns on our planes.
> Because > of their location all shots at enemy fighters would have to lead
the 
> attacking fighter by some 45 or so degrees if they hoped to hit it. It was
> just one gun and not in a turret. After mid 44 When they started removing
> one of the 2 waist gunners it was not unusual for a crew to finish their
35 
> missions and the gunners thereon never fired their guns at an enemy
> fighter. 
>              Jack

Without waist gunners there would have been more attacks from the sides. 
They would have been useful, even, if they never were used. The place was
there, and it did not cost anything except of the gun and it was a good place of
exercise for beginners. If a gun gets widened by use, it will loose precision,
still good for that purpose there. But is it true, most of the guns were
never used?
Nice photos in the web about the waist gunners..
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 13:55:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:55:06 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
References: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com> <15648.1042203705@www39.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3E1ED0BA.2C2343C7@tampabay.rr.com>

When the 17's were in formation there was lots and lots of fire power. The more guns
the better. The waist gunners were part of the over all coverage.





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 11 04:28:07 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:28:07 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Assy.
Message-ID: <000501c2b929$dafff380$11bb9ace@mjpmtman>

HELP----
In the course of a conversation at the Coffe Klatch a fellow said 
he read of a B-17  losing the tail section and the ship "porpoised" 
for a time then went completely out of control.. I seem to remember
that Jack?? said the air pressure on the tail assy pushed the tail down 
and kept it level. Is it possible for a ship to "porpoise"?? If so would it
give the crew time to bail out?-----Maurice J. Paulk


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 11 22:32:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:32:34 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 59 Years ago today - Oschersleben
Message-ID: <3E203912.22566.21868CB@localhost>

Gang,
59 Years ago today......
This mission was one of the worst........   Hal Susskind is 
writing a book about it.  

Mission #98 - Oschersleben
11 Jan 1944

I still get chills when I read my dad's journal. He wrote in 
part:
In the first wave of enemy planes, there were at least one 
hundred ME-109s, FW-190s, JU- 88s and a few ME-110s and JU-87s. 
The first pass made at our group included thirty to thirty-five 
ME-109s and FW-190s. The low group, to our left, had three 
Forts go down from this first pass. We also saw three German 
fighters shot down by this group during this time. The No. 4 
ship, lead ship of our element and on whose wing we were flying 
formation, had its N o. 1 engine hit. It immediately burst into 
flames and dropped out of formation. A few minutes later, this 
plane exploded. Soon afterward, the No. 3 ship ahead of us also 
caught on fire in the No. 1 engine and peeled out of formation. 
This ship exploded, also. Lt. Purcell was the pilot, and he and 
his crew didn't have a chance. (Purcell and I had been together 
through all of our training.) I then moved my ship up into the 
No. 3 position, flying on the left wing of the Wing Leader,  
General Travis. . . . . . . .

. . . . . . The last reports w e received from this mission 
listed ten planes lost out of our group. Altogether, sixty-one 
Flying Fortresses and crews were lost on this mission. Of the 
ten crews lost from our field, I knew five of the First Pilots 
personally and had done much of my training with them. They 
were Lieutenants Purcell, Eich, Schwaebe, Simmons and  
Hallden."

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 03:07:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:07:52 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] What's new !!
Message-ID: <001501c2b9e7$cdd0eac0$48bb9ace@mjpmtman>

Hey fellows - have you checked out the new currency & money
 site? Go to "What's New" on our home page. It will show you 
why Gary  has made our site the talk of the internet!!!

I furnished a couple scans for Gary & he notified me at 5:30 PM 
[his time]. that the new page was complete. We are fortunate!!!
Maurice J. Paulk


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 03:17:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:17:34 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] What's new !!
In-Reply-To: <001501c2b9e7$cdd0eac0$48bb9ace@mjpmtman>
Message-ID: <3E207BDE.31812.31D605F@localhost>

> Hey fellows - have you checked out the new currency & money
>  site? Go to "What's New" on our home page. It will show you why
> Gary  has made our site the talk of the internet!!!

Thanks -- Most of those bills were taped in a scrapbook of my 
dad's and a couple were from Maurice Paulk.  Obviously Scotch 
tape is not a good thing to use to preserve things like that.  
If anyone has any currency I don't have, or a better scan of 
what I do have, I'd appreciate it.  The coins were all from my 
dad as well.
http://www.303rdbga.com/money.html

Thanks!
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 07:21:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:21:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk Googles
In-Reply-To: <3E207BDE.31812.31D605F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030112072146.61125.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

This may be another stupid question, but why did
fighter pilots wear googles?  In the movies, you
always see the pilot pull the googles over his face
when the enemy is encountered.  With a canopy, it
would seem to be redundant protection.  Were they used
in case of bailout?  
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 13:55:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:55:22 EST
Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] Tail Assy.
Message-ID: <83.24c7d3e3.2b52cdca@aol.com>

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Return-path: 
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <145.7831932.2b512ec1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 03:24:33 EST
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Assy.
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

Maurice J. Paulk,
     Re your conversation in the Coffe Klatch and the fellow said he read 
etc. First This starts out with so much hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand vague 
details it is difficult to say just what happened and leaves out any details 
for instance. What does losing the tail section mean?? All of it coming off 
in front of the horizontal stabilizer? Breaking off between behind the back 
door and the tail wheel or just one of the horizontal stabilizers being 
damaged or broken off?  "Porpoised" for a time? How much time? 3 seconds or 3 
minutes?

      If the tail was completely gone like an FW 190 dove through it and the 
plane was not loaded exceptionally tail heavy it would be headed about 
straight down in about 3 seconds. If it "porpoised" for over about 3 seconds 
it would indicate the horizontal stabilizers were badly damaged but the pilot 
had some control until they completely failed. If the vertical stabilizer was 
gone or damaged it might very well roll or oscillate as it dove. In any of 
the above it would be possible but difficult for the crew to bail out due to 
centrifugal forces, possible injuries, damage to passage ways, jammed doors, 
finding your chute in the fluttering bird  and the floor wouldn't  be under 
you any more. It would be a wall  and you would be in a shaking vibrating 
tube with guns, tools, chutes, shells etc and etc flying around in there with 
you. Depending on your position The waist door might be out of reach above 
you and the closed bomb bay doors below you with the top turret (Engineer) 
and the two pilots struggling to get up in the bottom of the tube and finding 
a chute and hole to get out of. If you still had the bombs they might have 
very well broken loose and they are heavy little hunks, flying around in 
there with you or they might be in the bottom of the tube on top of the 
pilots and engineer.
     Sherman was right.
   Best Wishes,
               Jack Rencher  

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 16:25:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:25:27 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Goggles
In-Reply-To: <20030112072146.61125.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Hollywood strikes again...like with the goggles, that is...can you picture
John Wayne NOT wearing his while powerdiving after a  T-6 with meatball
insignia? I  imagine that with the canopy open on fighters there was still stuff
flying around the cockpit...one helluva time to get  something in your eye!  We
wore them, particularly the Pioneer M-1944 rubber and plastic job, having taken
care to punch a couple of holes in the lens to prevent fogging. Try and get one
of the AN-6530 models...a good pair is worth up to $400.  Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 16:49:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:49:48 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings from Texas
Message-ID: 

Gentlemen and former enlisted guys, hello.  My name is Gordon Permann and I 
am a retired USN helicopter gunner with a long infatuation with the B-17.  As 
a kid, I played in many of them at Marana, Arizona and I spent about two 
years playing in "Sentimental Journey" back in the days when it was 
half-filled with debris and sitting next to a similarly trashed TBM  (I 
couldn't turn back the clock to become a B-17 gunner, so I did went in the 
Navy, who still needed an occasional gunner).

That was almost 30 years ago and now I am retired to Austin, Texas and 
running the CAF library/museum at San Marcos.  We have a separate museum 
downstairs in our WWII hangar, but I handle all the "paper stuff"; bits of 
airmen's certificates, photos, War Dept. paperwork, etc.   In this capacity, 
I occasionally am given something that really touches home.  That happened 
yesterday.  A gent is going down to cancer at the age of 50 and he is the 
last of his family line - time to clean out the house and he offered us some 
WWII items from a long-forgotten relative or it was going it the trash.

Mack Daniels died on the 22 February 1944 mission (not sure if it was to 
Oschersleben near Leipzig or the Aschersleben FW-190 factory).  Some of the 
newspaper clippings I have state he was a crewman aboard "Ally Oop", but most 
of the items trace him to Lt. Underwood's crew in the 360th BS.  Lt. 
Underwood flew a no-name as well as "Devil's Workshop" which ditched in the 
channel on return from this mission.  The seas were too much and overcame the 
entire crew, which washed ashore on English beaches.  Mack was recovered and 
ultimately returned to his family in Lockhart, Texas, along with a small 
porcelin figurine that is a real head-scratcher.   It is a small boy in white 
porcelin and according to a note from the War Department, it was the only 
personal effects recovered with him.  Does anyone know this man, T/Sgt. Mack 
Daniels, Engineer/TTG in the 360th?  I would really like to know the 
significance of that little 1.5" doll and his family had no idea; it puzzled 
them for decades.

Thanks for your time and its a pleasure to meet you all.
v/r
Gordon


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 17:54:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:54:45 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Dresden
Message-ID: 


We bombed Dresden, Cologne, and others. We also firebombed every major city 
in Japan. The Japanese ravaged all of Asia and the western Pacific, while the 
Nazis did the same in Europe and Russia. General Sherman burned Atlanta and 
destroyed everything in his path while General Sheridan did the same to the 
Shenandoah valley. The Romans, Mongols, and Huns did the same. War throughout 
history has always been war. General McArthur said war was the most terrible 
thing mankind ever did to each other. Bottom line is it's a bummer for the 
losers, while the winners drink toasts to their victories for the rest of 
their lives. The winners also get to write the history as to who was right 
and who was wrong...................Ford J. Lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 18:15:31 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (wfd)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:15:31 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks
Message-ID: 

Hey, 303 - Just want to say thanks for all you did for this country.  =
You guys were the bravest Americans to have ever lived.  I am a =
professional Firefighter, an ex-navy aircrewman, and a B-17 enthusiast.  =
I have researched a lot about your era, crews, planes, etc.  I find =
similarities between bomber crews of WWII and Firefighter companies of =
today; teamwork, comraderie, brotherhood, and the constant threat of =
death while trying to do your job. You guys are the best.  May God bless =
you always.  Bob Hopkins - Weatherford Texas.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 20:09:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Graham Manchester)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:09:37 -0000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Great site
Message-ID: <000d01c2ba76$8998e080$39737ad5@firstdatdkh8l2>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2BA76.88921EE0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What a great site,

What can we say, the post WW11 people in the UK to you guys apart from a =
big thank you.

Graham Manchester

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What a great site,


 


What can we say, the post WW11 people in =
the UK to=20
you guys apart from a big thank you.


 


Graham Manchester


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 20:15:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:15:53 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> Hello, Bob...how's it going?   Thanks for your very kind words and good
wishes.  The events of 911 brought into sharper focus just what kind of dangers
you firefighters have to face on a daily basis, and all of us are appreciative
of your efforts...be it Texas or NYC.  The place must have grown incredibly
since the training days at Ellington in Houston and Midland...would never
recognize the former.  Good luck to you in your career and thanks for your good
wishes....right back atcha!   Cheers, Bob Hand, 303-380, Fink's Crew,
Bombardier, 35M. 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 20:20:03 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:20:03 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #815 - 6 msgs
Message-ID: <168.19178a4b.2b5327f3@aol.com>

I have an original copy of that Unit Citation for the 1st AirDiv for that 
awful Jan 11, 1944 mission.  Sounds like any survivors at all were damn lucky 
to be alive.

v/r
Gordon


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Jan 12 20:43:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans.reusink)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:43:34 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] l'histoire se repete
Message-ID: <000901c2ba7b$4fc13100$484679c3@default>

DEAR FORDLAUER.
I DO VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOUR THESIS.
THOSE WHO LOST THE WAR, WERE SIMPLY FORGOTTEN, THOSE WHO WON ON THE CONTRARY
,THEY WERE
THE ONES, DRINKING WINE AND WRITING BOOKS ABOUT BEING THE CONQUERERS.
IT DOES NOT PAY OF.
WHAT I HAVE SEEN PERSONALLY,HAS GIVEN ME A TRAUMATISM, FOR THE REST OF MY
LIFE,
SO, WHO WON THE WAR!!! GET SOME COMMON SENSE.
HANS REUSINK.



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 03:51:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:51:52 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:Sherman was right
Message-ID: <006c01c2bab7$1cfb2dc0$9a910243@default>

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Mr Rencher, the scene you describe from inside a B-17 dropping out of
formation and rolling over on her way down is a very sobering one indeed. I
had never thought about the ordinance breaking loose, not to mention
everything else.
Speaking of hopeful (ref above) membership in the "Caterpillar Club" , does
anyone know when  it was  started? The Caterpillar Club that is. And waht
about the Goldfish Club. Is that what it was called?

Bill Hoyt

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Mr Rencher, the scene you describe from inside a B-17 dropping =
out of=20
formation and rolling over on her way down is a very sobering one =
indeed. I=20
had never thought about the ordinance breaking loose, not to =
mention=20
everything else.


Speaking of hopeful (ref above) membership in the "Caterpillar =
Club"=20
, does anyone know when  it was  started? The Caterpillar =
Club=20
that is. And waht about the Goldfish Club. Is that what it was =
called?


 


Bill Hoyt


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 04:39:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:39:17 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk Googles
Message-ID: <21.2a12f5d6.2b539cf5@aol.com>

Kevin.
     Pilots wore goggles to protect their eyes in case of a flash fire in 
addition to the possibility of bailing out in a multi hundred MPH relative 
wind. Also it was very cold up there in that wind. Many also had maybe yellow 
or other shade lenses for sun shades the same as sun glasses to protect us 
from the glare. There was no shade up [there between sunrise and sunset We 
were ordered to do so
     Best Wishes,
          Jack. 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 06:40:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:40:43 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk Googles
References: <21.2a12f5d6.2b539cf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c2bace$b2f4c450$8791c8cf@altonmain>

'Lo, Jack.
Did any of the pilots just wear sunglasses? I think we have all seen the
USAF sunglasses at one time or another. I have had a few pairs, but the
originals are all gone now. Lost them in a bar...either stolen or broke. I
bet the same happened to a few of you.
Did you guys just wear them on leave, or in the plane as well?
Gordy.


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk Googles


> Kevin.
>      Pilots wore goggles to protect their eyes in case of a flash fire in
> addition to the possibility of bailing out in a multi hundred MPH relative
> wind. Also it was very cold up there in that wind. Many also had maybe
yellow
> or other shade lenses for sun shades the same as sun glasses to protect us
> from the glare. There was no shade up [there between sunrise and sunset We
> were ordered to do so
>      Best Wishes,
>           Jack.
>
>




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 07:09:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:09:52 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #815 - 6 msgs
References: <168.19178a4b.2b5327f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c2bad2$c5627de0$8791c8cf@altonmain>

Gordon,
 Is it possible for the rest of us to see it?
Do you have a scanner? If not, we can sure help you out, and get it on the
web site, or out to those that want it.
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #815 - 6 msgs


> I have an original copy of that Unit Citation for the 1st AirDiv for that
> awful Jan 11, 1944 mission.  Sounds like any survivors at all were damn
lucky
> to be alive.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
>
>




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 10 23:15:24 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:15:24 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
References: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com> <15648.1042203705@www39.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <003101c2b8fe$27fb9bc0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

There is a great deal of talk about guns-were they ever used?. Well I had
two cheek guns that were my responsibility. Even tho they were set up for me
when I entered the nose of the B-17 I check each gun for the action of the
block and the proper feed of ammo into the breech. If you have not been to
gunnery school your would not know that part of course was to disassemble
and reasseble the 50 cal , hand charge twice and click the trigger and it
better have a loud click. You did this all while blindfolded and timed by a
stopwatch.  Coming back alone from combat missions, I was supported by the
thaought that I had my two weapons which I could use in the event  we were
picked on by Luftwaffe planes in any of the areas we were flying through.
Unless you have been up there feeling like a sititing duck, don't second
guess what was the value of a waist gun or gunner or cheek gun. A foot
soldier was not asked to charge forth into battle with a pocket  knife

Oh yes, I fired my guns--only one , the left cheek gun- and that was from
about 9000 ft  at the heacvy    boiler plate of a fleeing locomotive from
the Truenenbritzen  rr yards.
LeRoy C.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns


> >      Waist guns were by far the most inefficient guns on our planes.
> > Because > of their location all shots at enemy fighters would have to
lead
> the
> > attacking fighter by some 45 or so degrees if they hoped to hit it. It
was
> > just one gun and not in a turret. After mid 44 When they started
removing
> > one of the 2 waist gunners it was not unusual for a crew to finish their
> 35
> > missions and the gunners thereon never fired their guns at an enemy
> > fighter.
> >              Jack
>
> Without waist gunners there would have been more attacks from the sides.
> They would have been useful, even, if they never were used. The place was
> there, and it did not cost anything except of the gun and it was a good
place of
> exercise for beginners. If a gun gets widened by use, it will loose
precision,
> still good for that purpose there. But is it true, most of the guns were
> never used?
> Nice photos in the web about the waist gunners..
> Bernd
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 11 03:26:10 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:26:10 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
References: <15a.1a0b394e.2b4e640c@aol.com> <15648.1042203705@www39.gmx.net> <3E1ED0BA.2C2343C7@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004901c2b921$30316cc0$6501a8c0@desktop1>

>From  crew coverage perspective,  how many waist gunners backfilled other
positions ?  I remember seeing my dads MOS for Flexible Gunnery (611? I
forget) along with his A&P and Crew Chief  training and dont know whether
initially all gunners were trained on all positions or just one. If
something happened to BT or tail, could a waist gunner assist on that
position ? Were they there was well to watch the BT and tail gunners backs
( eg get them out or keep an eye on, etc.)

 Regardless of the primary protection afforded I imagine it was a versatile
place to have men on a B-17.





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 11 08:24:33 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 03:24:33 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Assy.
Message-ID: <145.7831932.2b512ec1@aol.com>

Maurice J. Paulk,
     Re your conversation in the Coffe Klatch and the fellow said he read 
etc. First This starts out with so much hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand vague 
details it is difficult to say just what happened and leaves out any details 
for instance. What does losing the tail section mean?? All of it coming off 
in front of the horizontal stabilizer? Breaking off between behind the back 
door and the tail wheel or just one of the horizontal stabilizers being 
damaged or broken off?  "Porpoised" for a time? How much time? 3 seconds or 3 
minutes?

      If the tail was completely gone like an FW 190 dove through it and the 
plane was not loaded exceptionally tail heavy it would be headed about 
straight down in about 3 seconds. If it "porpoised" for over about 3 seconds 
it would indicate the horizontal stabilizers were badly damaged but the pilot 
had some control until they completely failed. If the vertical stabilizer was 
gone or damaged it might very well roll or oscillate as it dove. In any of 
the above it would be possible but difficult for the crew to bail out due to 
centrifugal forces, possible injuries, damage to passage ways, jammed doors, 
finding your chute in the fluttering bird  and the floor wouldn't  be under 
you any more. It would be a wall  and you would be in a shaking vibrating 
tube with guns, tools, chutes, shells etc and etc flying around in there with 
you. Depending on your position The waist door might be out of reach above 
you and the closed bomb bay doors below you with the top turret (Engineer) 
and the two pilots struggling to get up in the bottom of the tube and finding 
a chute and hole to get out of. If you still had the bombs they might have 
very well broken loose and they are heavy little hunks, flying around in 
there with you or they might be in the bottom of the tube on top of the 
pilots and engineer.
     Sherman was right.
   Best Wishes,
               Jack Rencher  


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 08:01:35 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:01:35 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Caterpillar Club
References: <006c01c2bab7$1cfb2dc0$9a910243@default>
Message-ID: <3E22725F.78D40B27@tampabay.rr.com>

Q: What is the Caterpillar Club?

A: Any person from that time on who jumped from a disabled aircraft with
a parachute became a member of the Caterpillar Club.

http://www.caterpillarclub.org/irvin/irvin.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Goldfish Club:
Additional information on ditching a heavybomber and the Goldfish Club.

http://www.geocities.com/b24gunr2000/Goldfish_Club.html





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 16:09:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:09:01 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
Message-ID: <6c.288ffd0a.2b543e9d@aol.com>

Gentlemen,
     Be very much aware, when I stated the waist guns were the most 
inefficient guns on the B17 I was talking about the gun position NOT the 
gunners. All the gunners were trained gunners and all the 50 caliber guns we 
used were the same guns. On many crews, including ours, the gunners could and 
occasionally did swap positions.
The Top turret and the ball were no doubt the most efficient guns as they 
automatically computed the lead and range. They had a wide range of coverage 
and there were two guns in each turret. The nose and chin turrets on the G 
models and modified Fs and the Tail were very important. They did not compute 
the lead but since most of their targets were close to being fairly straight 
ahead or close to fairly straight behind, lead was much less or none and much 
easier to estimate. Also they were two guns and threw twice as much lead when 
they were fired as when the gunner pulled the trigger both of them fired at 
once.  
     Most, but NOT all of the fighter attacks that I witnessed that shot B17s 
down came from the front, rear mostly, bottom or top.  If a fighter attacked 
us from the side he too would have a maximum lead to estimate in order to hit 
us. The waist gunner in order to hit him would have to aim about half way 
between his own tail and the attacking fighter. Remember too there was a 
waist gun on each side of the B17. Rarely would both the waist gunners have a 
target on both sides at the same time. One waist gunner could man them both 
most all the time. The important thing here that we are overlooking. Having 
one waist gunner instead of two rarely caused us any loss in our defense and 
saved one American Airman's life every time a plane went down. This was 
especially true after about mid 1944 and thereafter when most, but NOT all of 
our losses were from anti aircraft (Flak) not German fighters. Also, the 
radio man was a trained gunner. He could man one of the waist guns if needed. 
He had a gun once but it was so useless they quit even putting it 
in the planes for him.   
     No doubt the worst gunner we ever had and the least trained in gunnery 
was a Copilot who flew tail gunner in the lead plane on several missions. Man 
if the Germans had only know that we would have lost more leads. No offense 
intended Bill.
     Best Wishes,
        Jack 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 16:58:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:58:43 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F15BF@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

List,
Interesting conversation on the value of the waist gunner position.  I was
wondering if anyone has done a study or documented the kill/probable/damage
numbers by position?  In other words, which gun position inflicted the most
damage on the enemy?  

The answer could end the debate or open up a larger one.

Dave




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 17:07:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:07:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Goggles
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030113170758.51003.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Bob - that's the best explanation I've heard
so far.  Sorry for spelling goggles wrong!
Kevin
--- Bob Hand  wrote:
> > Hollywood strikes again...like with the goggles,
> that is...can you picture
> John Wayne NOT wearing his while powerdiving after a
>  T-6 with meatball
> insignia? I  imagine that with the canopy open on
> fighters there was still stuff
> flying around the cockpit...one helluva time to get 
> something in your eye!  We
> wore them, particularly the Pioneer M-1944 rubber
> and plastic job, having taken
> care to punch a couple of holes in the lens to
> prevent fogging. Try and get one
> of the AN-6530 models...a good pair is worth up to
> $400.  Cheers, Bob Hand
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 17:18:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:18:59 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk Googles
In-Reply-To: <005d01c2bace$b2f4c450$8791c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: 

> Yo, Kevin.   Department of Shameful Acts...see my name posted for having lost
not one but 2 pair of Serengeti beauts, one in a Dutch canal boat and the other
at Tavern on the Green, NYC (lifted out of my checked raincoat). Wore the GI
pair for show and for non-combat stuff...chances are they'd fly off your head
and do more harm than good. By the way, the Serengeti models at $70/pr....I sent
them back a busted pair and they sent me a brand new replacement.  Cheers, Bob
Hand
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 18:11:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:11:30 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Goldfish Club
Message-ID: 

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For information on the Goldfish Club see:
         http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish.html
         http://www.303rdbga.com/b24gunr2000/goldfish_club.html

Harry D. Gobrecht


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For information on the Goldfish Club see:

         http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish.html

         http://www.303rdbga.com/b24gunr2000/goldfish_club.html



Harry D. Gobrecht




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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 20:12:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:12:46 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] This may be of interest !
Message-ID: <16e.1921b617.2b5477be@aol.com>

06 Sep 43   1Lt Hullar, R.J.
2Lt Klint, W.   Stuttgart, GR
[ASR UK]    42-3002 (427BS)
The Old Squaw   6 mi SW Beachy Hd. (10 rescued)

A  friend was diving recently ( but 8 miles SE of Beachy head) and came upon 
some B17 wreckage...
Could this be The Old Squaw ? or did any other B17s come down that close to 
Beachy Head ?

With Respect ... Steve Lee  


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 20:24:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:24:02 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist (Waste) Guns
Message-ID: <192.13ec6ab0.2b547a62@aol.com>

Dave,
     B17s shot down more enemy fighters than any other plane.BUT for every 
enemy plane shot down there was often maybe three to five gunners on each 
plane and maybe half of the planes or more in the formation that fired at the 
attacking fighters.
How in the world can you decide which gunner in which plane actually fired 
the fatal round?  If anyone did such a study it wouldn't be worth the paper 
it was estimated on.
     Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 21:10:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:10:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Goldfish Club
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3125319033_38015157
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Afternoon, Harry....and Happy  New Year.  Eff=B9n you run into Tennessee Li=
cense
> Platte  =B3B17-WW2=B2 give me a toot.
> Cheers, Bob Hand



--B_3125319033_38015157
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Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: Goldfish Club



Afternoon, Harry...=
.and Happy  New Year.  Eff’n you run into Tennessee License =
Platte  “B17-WW2” give me a toot.

Cheers, Bob Hand









--B_3125319033_38015157--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 21:47:36 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:47:36 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: T/Sgt Mack E. Daniels
Message-ID: <75.71882af.2b548df8@aol.com>

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Gordon Krztalizer
RE; Your message on our 303rd Talk Digest on 12 January 1944 Message #1
T/Sgt Mack E. Daniels (ASN 3822172) was assigned to the 360th BS/303rd BG(H) 
at Molesworth, England on 16 November 1943 as the Flight Engineer/Top Trurret 
Gunner
on the Lt George E. Underwood Crew.
T/Sgt Daniels flew on 14 combat missions - all with Lt Underwood as his 
Pilot.
#093 - 31 Dec 43 in #42-5788   "A.O.G. Not in Stock" to Ludwigshaven, Germany
#094 - 31 Dec 43 in #42-2055   "Aloha" (*) to bomb the ship Orsono near 
Bordeaux, France
#095 - 04 Jan 44  in #42-5854    "Alley Oop" (*) to Keil, Germany
#098 - 11 Jan 44  in #42-37896       (No name)  to Oschersleben, Germany
            T/Sgt Daniels was credited with a FW-190 probably destroyed on 
this mission
#099 - 14 Jan 44 in #42-37841 "Banshee" to Le Meillard, France
#101 - 29 Jan 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*) to Frankfurt, Germany
#102 - 30 Jan 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*) to Brunswick, Germany
#103 - 03 Feb 44 in #42-31471 "Doolittle's Destroyer" (*) to Wilhelmshaven, 
Germany
#104 - 04 Feb 44 in #42-29785 "Thru Hel'en Highwater" (*) to Frankfurt, 
Germany
#105 - 05 Feb 44 in #42-5788   "A.O.G. Not in Stock" to Orleans, France
#106 - 06 Feb 44 in #42-31399     (No name) to Dijon, France
#109 - 20 Feb 44 in #42-31471 "Doolittle's Destroyer" (*) to Leipzig, Germany
#110 - 21 Feb 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*)  Diepholz, Germany
#111 - 22 Feb 44 in #42-29931 "Satan's Workshop" aka "Devil's Workshop"
               to Aschersleben, Germany
         (*) For photo of the nose art of these B-17's see:
         http://www.303rdbga.com/ground-nose.html

For a photo of the Lt Underwood Crew and story of their fatal  22 Feb 1944 
mission see:
         http://www.303rdbga.com/360underwood.html
For Ditching information see:
         http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish.html
         The Underwood crewmen did not qualify for membership in the 
"Goldfish Club"
         since they all drowned and lives were not saved by using the B-17's 
emergency
         life rafts.

RE: T/Sgt Daniel's 1.5" white porcelin doll figurine.
         Our archive records do not include data on crewmen's personnel 
effects.
         It probably was a good luck charm.  Many crewmen carried such good 
luck articles on     their combat missions.

GARY MONCUR
By copy of this message to our Webmaster, Gary Moncur, I am requesting that 
the
CENTEX Museum Web Page be added to our 303rd Web Page links, under Museums 
viz:
         http://www.realtime.net/centex/warbirds.htm

         Commorative Air Force - Central Texas  (CENTEX) Wing Museum
         San Marcos, Texas  . No B-17 on display at this museum

I am also requesting that the other three Commorative  Air Force Museums now 
on our Link page be changed to indicate "Commorative Air Force" instead of  
"Confederate Air Force".

Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd Bomb Gropp Association

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Gordon Krztalizer

RE; Your message on our 303rd Talk Digest on 12 January 1944 Message #1

T/Sgt Mack E. Daniels (ASN 3822172) was assigned to the 360th BS/303rd BG(H) at Molesworth, England on 16 November 1943 as the Flight Engineer/Top Trurret Gunner

on the Lt George E. Underwood Crew.

T/Sgt Daniels flew on 14 combat missions - all with Lt Underwood as his Pilot.

#093 - 31 Dec 43 in #42-5788   "A.O.G. Not in Stock" to Ludwigshaven, Germany

#094 - 31 Dec 43 in #42-2055   "Aloha" (*) to bomb the ship Orsono near Bordeaux, France

#095 - 04 Jan 44  in #42-5854    "Alley Oop" (*) to Keil, Germany

#098 - 11 Jan 44  in #42-37896       (No name)  to Oschersleben, Germany

            T/Sgt Daniels was credited with a FW-190 probably destroyed on this mission

#099 - 14 Jan 44 in #42-37841 "Banshee" to Le Meillard, France

#101 - 29 Jan 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*) to Frankfurt, Germany

#102 - 30 Jan 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*) to Brunswick, Germany

#103 - 03 Feb 44 in #42-31471 "Doolittle's Destroyer" (*) to Wilhelmshaven, Germany

#104 - 04 Feb 44 in #42-29785 "Thru Hel'en Highwater" (*) to Frankfurt, Germany

#105 - 05 Feb 44 in #42-5788   "A.O.G. Not in Stock" to Orleans, France

#106 - 06 Feb 44 in #42-31399     (No name) to Dijon, France

#109 - 20 Feb 44 in #42-31471 "Doolittle's Destroyer" (*) to Leipzig, Germany

#110 - 21 Feb 44 in #42-5854   "Alley Oop" (*)  Diepholz, Germany

#111 - 22 Feb 44 in #42-29931 "Satan's Workshop" aka "Devil's Workshop"

               to Aschersleben, Germany

         (*) For photo of the nose art of these B-17's see:

         http://www.303rdbga.com/ground-nose.html



For a photo of the Lt Underwood Crew and story of their fatal  22 Feb 1944 mission see:

         http://www.303rdbga.com/360underwood.html

For Ditching information see:

         http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish.html

         The Underwood crewmen did not qualify for membership in the "Goldfish Club"

         since they all drowned and lives were not saved by using the B-17's emergency

         life rafts.



RE: T/Sgt Daniel's 1.5" white porcelin doll figurine.

         Our archive records do not include data on crewmen's personnel effects.

         It probably was a good luck charm.  Many crewmen carried such good luck articles on     their combat missions.



GARY MONCUR

By copy of this message to our Webmaster, Gary Moncur, I am requesting that the

CENTEX Museum Web Page be added to our 303rd Web Page links, under Museums viz:

         http://www.realtime.net/centex/warbirds.htm



         Commorative Air Force - Central Texas  (CENTEX) Wing Museum

         San Marcos, Texas  . No B-17 on display at this museum



I am also requesting that the other three Commorative  Air Force Museums now on our Link page be changed to indicate "Commorative Air Force" instead of  "Confederate Air Force".



Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd Bomb Gropp Association

--part1_75.71882af.2b548df8_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 13 23:05:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:05:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
In-Reply-To: <192.13ec6ab0.2b547a62@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030113230556.192.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack and All:  I know early in the war gunners were
allowed wide latitude in being awarded a kill.  Latter
in the war when command realized our claims were
greatly exaggerated, command came up with more
stringent regs.  And I thought one of the main
purposes of debreifing was to determine (not guess) at
which gunner was successful in downing a German plane.
 Am I wrong about this?  Seems I read that in early 44
that gunners had to have a least one witness to a
kill.  Is this correct?

I do enjoy all of your comments!
Kevin



--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Dave,
>      B17s shot down more enemy fighters than any
> other plane.BUT for every 
> enemy plane shot down there was often maybe three to
> five gunners on each 
> plane and maybe half of the planes or more in the
> formation that fired at the 
> attacking fighters.
> How in the world can you decide which gunner in
> which plane actually fired 
> the fatal round?  If anyone did such a study it
> wouldn't be worth the paper 
> it was estimated on.
>      Best Wishes,
>             Jack
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 00:49:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:49:01 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
Message-ID: <5a.162a0940.2b54b87d@aol.com>

Kevin,
     If one plane was caught all by himself (her self if it was The Princess 
Pat) and a Me109 attacked it from the rear and the tail gunner was the only 
one who shot at it and shot it down. Yes, the tail gunner would get credit 
for it But If the tail gunners, Top turrets and ball turrets in a 3 airplane 
formation all shot at it at the same time you tell me how a witness could 
tell who shot it down. Even if all 3 shot at it from one airplane how would 
anyone tell who shot it down?/ No way. They could all three have been hitting 
it One killed the lone pilot. One set the carburetor on fire. one shot a 
blade. Off the prop. Who shot it down Oh noble witness? As the Owl asked WHO? 
WHO? Now don't tell me Owls are smarter than Intelligent Officers.
     Happy 01-13-03,
        Jack The happy copilot
 




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 01:18:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:18:27 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
References: <5a.162a0940.2b54b87d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E236563.A7D7F9EB@tampabay.rr.com>

It's hard to imagine 100's of B-17's  flying in formation and thinking how much
fire power they had combined.





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 01:23:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:23:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
In-Reply-To: <5a.162a0940.2b54b87d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030114012332.45727.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  You are a Hoot! You are absolutely correct
about knowing who shot a plane down.  If a 109
attacked the high squadron, rolled inverted and
disappeared into the middle and low squadrons, and
caught on fire somewhere in between, it would be REAL
difficult to know who for sure did the damage.

Did bomber gunners ever get credit for a fraction of a
kill like fighter pilots?  Can't think of anything
I've read or seen where maybe a ball and waist gunner
got 1/2 kill.

The Germans had to have a witness to an aircraft being
shot down in order for the credit to be awarded.  That
made things much more difficult for Luft. pilots to
receive credit.  I've spoken with some Luft. pilots
who mixed it up, lost a wingman, shot a plane down,
and just never reported it. 

Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe used gun cameras?
Kevin


--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin,
>      If one plane was caught all by himself (her
> self if it was The Princess 
> Pat) and a Me109 attacked it from the rear and the
> tail gunner was the only 
> one who shot at it and shot it down. Yes, the tail
> gunner would get credit 
> for it But If the tail gunners, Top turrets and ball
> turrets in a 3 airplane 
> formation all shot at it at the same time you tell
> me how a witness could 
> tell who shot it down. Even if all 3 shot at it from
> one airplane how would 
> anyone tell who shot it down?/ No way. They could
> all three have been hitting 
> it One killed the lone pilot. One set the carburetor
> on fire. one shot a 
> blade. Off the prop. Who shot it down Oh noble
> witness? As the Owl asked WHO? 
> WHO? Now don't tell me Owls are smarter than
> Intelligent Officers.
>      Happy 01-13-03,
>         Jack The happy copilot
>  
> 
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 01:30:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:30:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] l'histoire se repete
In-Reply-To: <000901c2ba7b$4fc13100$484679c3@default>
Message-ID: <20030114013021.18897.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Hans:  I interviewed Oskar Bosch, (Feldwebel,
IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 "Udet), three times and the point he
kept emphasising to me was the victors wrote the
history books.  He also couldn't say enough about how
it felt to loose the war and be at the complete mercy
of the victors.

He said several things that would not be well received
by this group, and after cheking them out, I found
they were all true.  I don't think our government out
and out lied to us, I just don't think they presented
ALL the facts.

I hope this doesn't spark another firestorm!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 05:41:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:41:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
References: <20030114012332.45727.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <17146.1042522898@www49.gmx.net>

> The Germans had to have a witness to an aircraft being
> shot down in order for the credit to be awarded.  That
> made things much more difficult for Luft. pilots to
> receive credit.  I've spoken with some Luft. pilots
> who mixed it up, lost a wingman, shot a plane down,
> and just never reported it. 
> 
> Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe used gun cameras?
> Kevin

The Luftwaffe used gun cameras, but not in all planes and not enough. So
there were reported more killings, than really were (!). Later some pilots
demanded for the cameras. Often the kill was given to a commander, though not
true. The small fighters had their battle to the front and so there was not much
to do for Your waist gunners. It will  not be possible  to attack a plane
from the side for a longer time , if your cannons are aiming to the front, but
most hits will go to the middle of  the Fortress, were the waist gunner was.

Bernd

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 07:46:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:46:45 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
Message-ID: <14f.1a34205d.2b551a65@aol.com>

Kevin, Yes, the Germans used gun cameras. I don't know if they did all of the 
time, but I've seen quite a bit of their footage.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 08:51:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 03:51:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 11 January 1944 DUC for 1st Bombardment Division
Message-ID: <15e.1a1255f8.2b5529ac@aol.com>

Below, I transcribed the Distinguished Unit Citation for that Jan 11 1944 
mission - sorry, my scanned died in November (I tried to scan a photo of one 
of those horrendously ugly French between-the-wars bombers and the scanner 
exploded).  Here is the text:

=======================================================

                         Citation for the 1st Bombardment Division:

       The first Bombardment Division is cited for extraordinary heroism, 
determination, and esprit de corps in action against the enemy on 11 January 
1944.  On this occasion, the 1st Bombardment Division led the entire 8th Air 
Force penetration into central Germany to attack vital aircraft factories.  
After assembly was completed and the formation was proceeding toward Germany, 
adverse weather conditions were encountered which prevented effective fighter 
cover from reaching the 1st Bombardment Division.

       Taking full advantage of the relative vulnerability of the Lead 
Division, the enemy concentrated powerful forces against it.  The scale of 
the enemy attack is graphically indicated by the fact that 400 encounters 
with enemy aircraft were recorded by units of the 1st Bombardment Division.  
The gunners met these continuous attacks with accurate fire, and the Division 
continued toward the target as briefed where bombs were dropped with 
excellent results.  On the return trip, the enemy continued to concentrate 
his efforts on the 1st Bombardment Division.  Figures of enemy aircraft 
claimed by our gunners indicate that the heroism of this Division inflicted 
heavy losses on the enemy in the air as well as on the ground.  Two hundred 
and ten enemy aircraft, the largest ever claimed by any Division of the 8th 
Air Force for any one mission, were confirmed as destroyed and 84 damaged.

       The Division lost 42 bombers and many of those which returned were 
heavily damaged.  Four hundred thirty officers and enlisted men failed to 
return, 2 were killed, and 32 others wounded.  The extraordinary heroism and 
tenacious fighting spirit demonstrated by the 1st Air Division in 
accomplishing its assignment under exceptionally difficult conditions reflect 
the highest credit on this organization, the Army Air Forces, and the Armed 
Forces of the United States.

       This is accurate and as stated in General Orders #50.

=========================================================
That is the complete text of the Citation.  It appears that the copy I have 
is a draft or file copy as there are numerous spelling errors and typing 
strikeouts.

v/r
Gordon in Austin



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 12:28:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:28:51 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
References: <14f.1a34205d.2b551a65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <12940.1042547331@www54.gmx.net>

> Kevin, Yes, the Germans used gun cameras. I don't know if they did all of
> the 
> time, but I've seen quite a bit of their footage.
>      Jack

What is the best way to show photos?  Is there a possibility for uploading
image files?
During the battle of England there were reported up to three times the
number of kills, which would have been seen by cameras.  Truth was of secondary
interest. Propaganda of a great one.
The American informations were more believable.  A bridge across the Ruhr in
my town was called 'Herrmann Meyer Bridge' by people. Once Herrmann Goering
had said: 'Please, call me 'Meyer', if there ever will be seen any plane of
the enemy over Germany'. People did do so. 
My father was directly engaged in preventing the Generalfeldmarschall being
called 'Meyer'. He could not prevent it. 
   Bernd

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 14:56:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:56:02 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] AOG not in stock
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB34@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

One of the planes flown by T/S Daniels was called, "A.O.G. Not in Stock".
Can some one explain what that means?  I hope that I am not showing my
worldly ignorance with this one! :-)
Dave
 
 

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One of the planes flown by T/S Daniels was called, =
“A.O.G.
Not in Stock”.  Can =
some one
explain what that means?  =
I hope
that I am not showing my worldly ignorance with this one! =
:-)



D=
ave



<=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> 
=



 =










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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 16:42:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:42:58 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [Old Photo
In-Reply-To: <20021219171145.62986.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

'Mornin' all....a good day to you.  While rummaging through my oldies but
goodies I came across a Kodacolor print of two 360th aircraft, "L" and "H"
(photo taken from "F") all three appear to be on an eastward run, buttoned
up tight. Question: Is it possible to identify what the aircraft names were
and what crews might have been aboard?  I have no record of the date, so
this is really a long shot.  Photo taken with Voigtlander Bdssa, exposure
probably common, 1/100 @ f-ll Age has turned the print greenish and I will
no doubt take computer correction to bring it back more normal.  Thanks and
Cheers to All....Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 16:58:40 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:58:40 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #817 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <78.358b4266.2b559bc0@aol.com>

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Morning, gents.

> The Germans had to have a witness to an aircraft being
> shot down in order for the credit to be awarded.  That
> made things much more difficult for Luft. pilots to
> receive credit.  

Although it was fashionable to once consider LW claims for individual pilots 
grossly inflated, the decades since the war has shown that its pretty rare 
for that to have been the case.  I can only think of one high-ranking 
"Experte"/Ace (Rudorffer) that has claims that are proven patently false -- 
as a result, that man is barred from reunions of his old unit and is 
generally ignored in his own country.  For a pilot to recieve credit for a 
victory in the Luftwaffe, details given by him had to check out in one of the 
following ways -- the wreck site had to be located by German forces, the 
destruction had to be recorded by guncam (yep, they carried them in almost 
all cases, including the heavy fighters such as Ju-88s), or the destruction 
had to be verified by other pilots (not crewmembers of the same aircraft) who 
witnessed the event.


I've spoken with some Luft. pilots
> 
> who mixed it up, lost a wingman, shot a plane down,
> and just never reported it. 


Absolutely true - plus, confirmation often took 3-5 months, so pilots such as 
Walter Schuck of JG5 and JG7 got to the point they couldn't see a reason for 
bothering.  Since fighting that took place over Allied lines was not going to 
allow confirmation in a lot of cases, "Abschusse" reports or "Formation 
Separation" claims (pilots were awarded points for forcing a 'Boeing' or 
'Liberator' out of formation where they could be attacked by other fighters) 
were often not made by senior pilots.  As with any blanket statement, there 
were cases where exactly the opposite occurred - such as with Hartmann and 
Barkhorn, who filed detailed claims reports right up to the final day of the 
war.  Always bugged me though -- Hartmann is given credit for "352 
destroyed", but that is his -claims-, as the confirmation process essentially 
no longer existed after November 1944.


> 
> Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe used gun cameras?
> 

Yes, most definitely.  A man in Wichita, Horst Petzschler, flew as a Bf-109 
pilot in a high-cover squadron for the damned "Sturmbocks" (battering ram 
FW-190s).  On a September raid on Magdeburg in 1944, Horst attacked a B-17 
from head-on, shooting out the cockpit as he was overtaken and brought under 
fire by a flight of Mustangs.  He realized the P-51s would reach him at the 
same time as he got to the Fortress, but he did not break off -- he bored in 
and continued firing as he passed the B-17 and on the other side of the 
bomber (which subsequently went out of control), the Flight Lead of the 
approaching P-51s appeared suddenly above and in the opposite direction.  The 
German Sergeant continued firing his 30mm nose cannon and struck the Mustang 
on the propeller hub, radiator, and centerline fuel tank.  In a flash, the 
P-51 exploded, leaving virtually nothing except a black cloud.  As you'd 
expect, the remaining escort fighters ripped him a new ass -- successive 
attacks literally shot his wing off and Horst bailed out, wounded but alive.  
After he landed, he knew no one had seen his attack or victories, so he 
simply reported them and figured they would go down as unconfirmed.  Some 
weeks later, however, he was sent official confirmation and a copy of his 
wing-mounted gun camera film, clearly showing the B-17's demise as well as 
the Mustang as it was struck on the nose and the mid-fuselage fuel tank.  
Wreck scrounging units in the area had recovered Petzschler's missing wing 
with camera intact and the RLM (Air Ministry) tracked down the right pilot.  
I know this sounds like utter bullshit, but the Discovery Channel got ahold 
of that strip of guncamera film and has shown it on occasion -- I've seen it. 
 (And Horst sent me a copy of it, which I am sitting here scratching my head 
and wondering about...)

v/r
Gordon

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Morning, gents.




The Germans had to have a witness to an aircraft being

shot down in order for the credit to be awarded.  That

made things much more difficult for Luft. pilots to

receive credit.  




Although it was fashionable to once consider LW claims for individual pilots grossly inflated, the decades since the war has shown that its pretty rare for that to have been the case.  I can only think of one high-ranking "Experte"/Ace (Rudorffer) that has claims that are proven patently false -- as a result, that man is barred from reunions of his old unit and is generally ignored in his own country.  For a pilot to recieve credit for a victory in the Luftwaffe, details given by him had to check out in one of the following ways -- the wreck site had to be located by German forces, the destruction had to be recorded by guncam (yep, they carried them in almost all cases, including the heavy fighters such as Ju-88s), or the destruction had to be verified by other pilots (not crewmembers of the same aircraft) who witnessed the event.





I've spoken with some Luft. pilots




who mixed it up, lost a wingman, shot a plane down,

and just never reported it. 






Absolutely true - plus, confirmation often took 3-5 months, so pilots such as Walter Schuck of JG5 and JG7 got to the point they couldn't see a reason for bothering.  Since fighting that took place over Allied lines was not going to allow confirmation in a lot of cases, "Abschusse" reports or "Formation Separation" claims (pilots were awarded points for forcing a 'Boeing' or 'Liberator' out of formation where they could be attacked by other fighters) were often not made by senior pilots.  As with any blanket statement, there were cases where exactly the opposite occurred - such as with Hartmann and Barkhorn, who filed detailed claims reports right up to the final day of the war.  Always bugged me though -- Hartmann is given credit for "352 destroyed", but that is his -claims-, as the confirmation process essentially no longer existed after November 1944.








Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe used gun cameras?






Yes, most definitely.  A man in Wichita, Horst Petzschler, flew as a Bf-109 pilot in a high-cover squadron for the damned "Sturmbocks" (battering ram FW-190s).  On a September raid on Magdeburg in 1944, Horst attacked a B-17 from head-on, shooting out the cockpit as he was overtaken and brought under fire by a flight of Mustangs.  He realized the P-51s would reach him at the same time as he got to the Fortress, but he did not break off -- he bored in and continued firing as he passed the B-17 and on the other side of the bomber (which subsequently went out of control), the Flight Lead of the approaching P-51s appeared suddenly above and in the opposite direction.  The German Sergeant continued firing his 30mm nose cannon and struck the Mustang on the propeller hub, radiator, and centerline fuel tank.  In a flash, the P-51 exploded, leaving virtually nothing except a black cloud.  As you'd expect, the remaining escort fighters ripped him a new ass -- successive attacks literally shot his wing off and Horst bailed out, wounded but alive.  After he landed, he knew no one had seen his attack or victories, so he simply reported them and figured they would go down as unconfirmed.  Some weeks later, however, he was sent official confirmation and a copy of his wing-mounted gun camera film, clearly showing the B-17's demise as well as the Mustang as it was struck on the nose and the mid-fuselage fuel tank.  Wreck scrounging units in the area had recovered Petzschler's missing wing with camera intact and the RLM (Air Ministry) tracked down the right pilot.  I know this sounds like utter bullshit, but the Discovery Channel got ahold of that strip of guncamera film and has shown it on occasion -- I've seen it.  (And Horst sent me a copy of it, which I am sitting here scratching my head and wondering about...)



v/r

Gordon

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 17:05:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:05:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
In-Reply-To: <3E236563.A7D7F9EB@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Steve and all:  I read in one of Freeman's books a
group of 100 Fortresses could unlease a ton of lead
per minute if all of the .50s fired in unison.  I saw
one Luftwaffe pilot interviewed on a history show and
he said, "Attacking the B Seventeens was like trying
to make love to a porcupine on fire!"
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 19:53:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th AF/ 303rd Gunner with Most Confirmed Victories
In-Reply-To: <145.7831932.2b512ec1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030114195322.36379.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

I've read more than my fair share of books on the 8th
AF but have never run across this one statistic. 
(Perhaps it doesn't exist.) Does anyone know what 8th
AF B-17 or B-24 gunner was credited with the most a/c
shot down?  How about in the 303rd - who was the
highest scoring gunner with the 303rd?

We hear a lot about fighter aces, but history has
shown more fighters were shot down by the bombers than
by fighters.
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 20:44:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:44:04 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th AF/ 303rd Gunner with Most Confirmed Victori
 es
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB38@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Kevin,
Can't speak to the 8th AF, but in Martin Caidin's book The Flying Fort, he
relates the story of a plane based out of N. Africa or Italy (so 15th AF).
Supposedly one of the gunners knocked down 7 planes on one mission.  I no
longer have my copy of the book,(water damaged) to verify my memory.  If
someone on the list can check it out, I'd like to hear the story again and
find out if I am not having a senior moment.

Dave




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 20:59:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:59:34 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
References: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com>

Thanks!  I printed that one and I will show it to my DAD, I am sure he
will get a good laugh out of that!

Thanks!

After 34 missions my dad gave up on the 8th 427th Bomb Group and went
and flew with the RAF till the end of the war doing jamming. There are a
lot of books written on him and the 8 planes he served with in the RAF..
Funny that for over 30 + years there were no records of what he did with
the RAF so he kinda wrote it off. It's nice to see everything coming to
light now that some time has passed. Even his military records didn't
show where he was for that year and a 1/2. It was all secret till not
long ago. He keeps getting me books to read to back up the stories he
use to tell me but I knew his stories were true. After all these men
were true American Heroes!  If I remember correctly he did a total of 52
mission with both the US Army Air Corp and the RAF!  Yes he is also my
hero and a hell of a good dad!

Steve





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 14 21:34:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:34:32 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos
In-Reply-To: <12940.1042547331@www54.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3E241FF8.815.1B88CEA@localhost>

> What is the best way to show photos?  Is there a possibility for
> uploading image files?

If you have photos you'd like to show to the list members, send 
them to me at glm@303rdbga.com.  I'll upload them in a temp 
directory and tell you where they are ------ then you can post 
your message about them and show the link to the photo.

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 01:06:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:06:44 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kill Confirmation
References: <12940.1042547331@www54.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <26255.1042592804@www7.gmx.net>

You could not believe in the shots of the cameras only. when a fortress was
hit, it was normally not killed. The Lufthansa made bad experiencies in 1940
over England. Most of the planes declared as killed, were still alife after.
This was not only, because Lord Dowding successfully  hid a reserve of planes
and let repair them in lots. This was due to circumstances in the
Reichluftfahrtministerium. In the first year of the war  there had been made most bad
experiencies with wrong reports and a hurricane with a lost tissue too early
was declared as a kill. They learned their lesson and later all had to be
reported most well. When the fortresses came in big numbers, amunition got high
value and every shot was checked to overcome lack of ammunition by better
precision. Your fathers will have met only planes with cameras, most fixed in the
wings. I have a photo of my father here, in front of a Ju88, where the
camera in the nose is disloaded. My friend told me, the reason, that some kills
were not reported, often was booking the victory for the leader of the Staffel.
The early airforce was not free of vanity.
I have only two albums of my father, he fell before my birth near Bayeux.
British/Canadian front.
Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 01:59:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
In-Reply-To: <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20030115015953.13080.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Steve:  You are very lucky the English decided to give
up records and made them public.  The English
government has a knack for keeping many things from
the English citizens.  It's not like the good ol' USA
where we have been know to hang politicians we don't
like!
Cheers!
Kevin
--- Steve  wrote:
> Thanks!  I printed that one and I will show it to my
> DAD, I am sure he
> will get a good laugh out of that!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> After 34 missions my dad gave up on the 8th 427th
> Bomb Group and went
> and flew with the RAF till the end of the war doing
> jamming. There are a
> lot of books written on him and the 8 planes he
> served with in the RAF..
> Funny that for over 30 + years there were no records
> of what he did with
> the RAF so he kinda wrote it off. It's nice to see
> everything coming to
> light now that some time has passed. Even his
> military records didn't
> show where he was for that year and a 1/2. It was
> all secret till not
> long ago. He keeps getting me books to read to back
> up the stories he
> use to tell me but I knew his stories were true.
> After all these men
> were true American Heroes!  If I remember correctly
> he did a total of 52
> mission with both the US Army Air Corp and the RAF! 
> Yes he is also my
> hero and a hell of a good dad!
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 02:02:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:02:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Caiden's Flying Forts
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB38@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030115020201.72739.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  I've got a copy and I will skim through it
tonight and see if I can locate the story.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 02:20:35 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:20:35 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
References: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004301c2bc3c$b03f6700$bc91c8cf@altonmain>

You must tell us more...
about the books...
and about the missions...
please.
Gordy.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Firepower


> Thanks!  I printed that one and I will show it to my DAD, I am sure he
> will get a good laugh out of that!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> After 34 missions my dad gave up on the 8th 427th Bomb Group and went
> and flew with the RAF till the end of the war doing jamming. There are a
> lot of books written on him and the 8 planes he served with in the RAF..
> Funny that for over 30 + years there were no records of what he did with
> the RAF so he kinda wrote it off. It's nice to see everything coming to
> light now that some time has passed. Even his military records didn't
> show where he was for that year and a 1/2. It was all secret till not
> long ago. He keeps getting me books to read to back up the stories he
> use to tell me but I knew his stories were true. After all these men
> were true American Heroes!  If I remember correctly he did a total of 52
> mission with both the US Army Air Corp and the RAF!  Yes he is also my
> hero and a hell of a good dad!
> 
> Steve




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 02:56:31 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:56:31 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
References: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com> <004301c2bc3c$b03f6700$bc91c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3E24CDDE.EC14BCB0@tampabay.rr.com>

Here is a start for you, I will get some of the books together this weekend
for you.
He has also written a lot for a few of the authors. I will grab some if it
this weekend and scan some of the stories and post them for you.  As he has
been getting older he has been writing a lot of it down so he doesn't forget.
Now that all the secret stuff has come out he is starting to remember most of
it. You must remember that was 60 years ago. Some of the raids he went on with
the 8th in his B-17 were really scary!  He talks about walking across the cat
walk at 17,000 feet to talk to the rear gunner. Not a big deal you might think
but the bomb bay doors were open, the bombs where gone and the cat walk is
only 10" wide. If you have ever been in a B-17 you know what I am talking
about. No safety straps or anything. I asked him weren't you scared? He said
no because 20 year olds don't think they are going to die...

Enjoy the link!

http://www.ww1.org/B24J.htm






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 03:05:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:05:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Firepower
References: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com> <004301c2bc3c$b03f6700$bc91c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3E24CFFC.405AC760@tampabay.rr.com>

Squadron of Deception: The 36th Bomb Squadron in World War II
             by Stephen M. Hutton (Hardcover - September 1999)
             B-24 Best Web - 'Elite' Research "TEAM" Member
             List Price: $39.95

             From Stephen Hutton:
             The 36th Bomb Squadron (H) Radar Countermeasure Unit, (36BS RCM)
initially began as the 803rd Bomb
             Squadron (Provisional) and was the 8th Air Force's only
electronic warfare squadron.  This secret unit was
             first placed under the 8AF Composite Command (Mar 44) for
administration and later re-designated as the
             36BS RCM (Aug 44).  Next the 36BS was assigned to the 8AF Fighter
Command (Oct 44) for
             administration, then the 1st Air Division (Jan 45) and finally
assigned to the 482BG (Feb 45).  In all instances
             the 36BS was assigned to these organizations only for
administration purposes. Operational control for its
             special missions and training was exercised by 8th Air Force
Headquarters in England. The first half of the
             missions the squadron flew were with the Royal Air Force 100
Group on nights.  8AF HQ coordinated these
             missions with RAF Bomber Command.

             At the end of the war in Europe, all the Liberators were
stationed with the 482nd Bomb Group at Station
             102 Alconbury, England.



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 03:11:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:11:50 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] LITTLETON'S EGGNOG
References: <20030114170545.5329.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> <3E247A36.2929A6DA@tampabay.rr.com> <004301c2bc3c$b03f6700$bc91c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <3E24D176.A82CF1B@tampabay.rr.com>

LITTLETON'S EGGNOG
                                  [Transmitted by Frank 50 years later]
              (As is apparent from the recipe, this is more than a holiday
drink. It's a holiday ceremony!)

INGREDIENTS: 22 Eggs, 1 gallon Milk, 1 1/2 pints Table Cream, 1 1/2 fifths
Brandy (or Bourbon), 1 pint Rum, 1/2 pint
Apricot Liqueur, 1 3/4 lbs. (3 1/2 cups) Sugar, and 1 tbsp Nutmeg.

PROCEDURE: Separate eggs; save whites. Cream yolks and sugar together in large
mixing bowl or kettle. Sugar must be
thoroughly dissolved in eggs before adding brandy or whisky. Dribble in slowly
the brandy/bourbon, rum, and liqueur, stirring
all the while. Add milk. Whip egg whites and cream separately; then mix
together. Fold most of this mixture into the nog; float
some on top. Put half nutmeg into the nog; sprinkle the rest on drinks as
served.

I couldn't have partaken of the joy of that evening, if I'd known that at the
same time my brother Bob was lying on the straw of
a Belgian farmhouse with his head cut open by Nazi shrapnel.




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 03:41:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:41:44 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] A.O.G - Not in Stock
Message-ID: <6d.738d89f.2b563278@aol.com>

--part1_6d.738d89f.2b563278_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The A.O.G. file was a top priority file for A.O.G. aircraft parts that had 
been ordered
from the parts supply depot.
A.O. G means "Aircraft on Ground"
The A.O.G. part was the only part that kept the aircraft from flying.
The priority below that was U.R.R. (Urgent Repair Request)
The above was from a Febuuary 1999 message received from Maurice J. Paulk.
B-17F #42-5788 360th BS (PU-H) was named A.O.G. - Not in Stock.
It was also named "Pluto's Avenger"
Harry D. Gobrecht

--part1_6d.738d89f.2b563278_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The A.O.G. file was a top priority file for A.O.G. aircraft parts that had been ordered

from the parts supply depot.

A.O. G means "Aircraft on Ground"

The A.O.G. part was the only part that kept the aircraft from flying.

The priority below that was U.R.R. (Urgent Repair Request)

The above was from a Febuuary 1999 message received from Maurice J. Paulk.

B-17F #42-5788 360th BS (PU-H) was named A.O.G. - Not in Stock.

It was also named "Pluto's Avenger"

Harry D. Gobrecht

--part1_6d.738d89f.2b563278_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 04:41:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:41:05 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] EGGNOG!!!!!
Message-ID: <003401c2bc50$513db7c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C2BC1E.0647BA40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is one good eggnog--it is so smooth!!
I did make that same receipe some 40 yrs ago--haven't lately.  It is =
rich full of cholesterol, triglycerides but oooh so good.
Serve well chilled.
The receipe sounds about double of what I made, which used 12 eggs (must =
be fresh eegs) and the 22 eeg formula would probably serve about 20 =
people.
Stir in the whiskey slowly while stirring because as they say the =
alcohol  "cooks the eggs"
Boy am I thirsty now
LeRoy C.
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C2BC1E.0647BA40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









That is one good eggnog--it is so=20
smooth!!


I did make that same receipe some 40 =
yrs=20
ago--haven't lately.  It is rich full of cholesterol, triglycerides =
but=20
oooh so good.


Serve well chilled.


The receipe sounds about double of what =
I made,=20
which used 12 eggs (must be fresh eegs) and the 22 eeg formula would =
probably=20
serve about 20 people.


Stir in the whiskey slowly while =
stirring because=20
as they say the alcohol  "cooks the eggs"


Boy am I thirsty now


LeRoy C.


------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C2BC1E.0647BA40--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 06:43:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:43:30 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] EGGNOG!!!!!
References: <003401c2bc50$513db7c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c2bc61$6b1d7f20$ba91c8cf@altonmain>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2BC1E.5C554C90
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Leroy,
So, being a youngster of 47, do you think I could invite a half dozen of =
my friends, and 12 veterans, and have a pretty good talk about the way =
things were?....heheheh
I am still curious to see what was remembered of the original =
party...were the Red Cross beauties, and English lassies allowed to =
partake, or is that still a secret? I say this with tongue in cheek, of =
course, but maybe a few of you would like to relate some of the "good =
times" that were part of the war. I can't tell you how much we sons dote =
on that kind of thing. We can read facts and figures, and MACRs, but =
tell me.....what was a party at the airbase like?
Humor, anecdotes, and bald-faced lies are all permitted.
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Leroy Audrey=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:41 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] EGGNOG!!!!!


  That is one good eggnog--it is so smooth!!
  I did make that same receipe some 40 yrs ago--haven't lately.  It is =
rich full of cholesterol, triglycerides but oooh so good.
  Serve well chilled.
  The receipe sounds about double of what I made, which used 12 eggs =
(must be fresh eegs) and the 22 eeg formula would probably serve about =
20 people.
  Stir in the whiskey slowly while stirring because as they say the =
alcohol  "cooks the eggs"
  Boy am I thirsty now
  LeRoy C.
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2BC1E.5C554C90
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Leroy,


So, being a youngster of 47, do you think I =
could invite a=20
half dozen of my friends, and 12 veterans, and have a pretty good talk =
about the=20
way things were?....heheheh


I am still curious to see what was remembered of =
the=20
original party...were the Red Cross beauties, and English lassies =
allowed to=20
partake, or is that still a secret? I say this with tongue in cheek, of =
course,=20
but maybe a few of you would like to relate some of the "good times" =
that were=20
part of the war. I can't tell you how much we sons dote on that kind of =
thing.=20
We can read facts and figures, and MACRs, but tell me.....what was a =
party at=20
the airbase like?


Humor, anecdotes, and bald-faced lies are all=20
permitted.


Gordy.


 


Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, =
BC, Can=20
V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com=

"Please=20
remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom =
free..."



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Leroy=20
  Audrey 
  
  
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 =
8:41=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
EGGNOG!!!!!

  


  
That is one good eggnog--it is so=20
  smooth!!

  
I did make that same receipe some 40 =
yrs=20
  ago--haven't lately.  It is rich full of cholesterol, =
triglycerides but=20
  oooh so good.

  
Serve well chilled.

  
The receipe sounds about double of =
what I made,=20
  which used 12 eggs (must be fresh eegs) and the 22 eeg formula would =
probably=20
  serve about 20 people.

  
Stir in the whiskey slowly while =
stirring because=20
  as they say the alcohol  "cooks the eggs"

  
Boy am I thirsty now

  
LeRoy =
C.


------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2BC1E.5C554C90--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 15:40:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:40:45 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] waste gunner picture
Message-ID: <3E2580FD.190A8FCF@tampabay.rr.com>

http://www.36rcm.com/personnel/airmen/images/2@sidelarge.jpg

crew pictures

http://www.36rcm.com/personnel/airmen/airmen.htm



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 13:22:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:22:41 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
Message-ID: <197.13f6b295.2b56baa1@aol.com>

Gents, on another forum, we are arguing the "merits" of Caiden's old book, 
"Flying Fortress".  As in his other books, there are so many 'sea stories' 
and unverifiable comments that as a reference, its really a poor choice, 
however, some folks still insist...

A quote that he includes from a LtGen or LtCol (I can't recall his name off 
the top of my head) states categorically that he knew of a Fortress that was 
struck with 3,000 *bullets* [not shell splinters].  Caiden, as usual, does 
not provide Unit, serial number, pilot name or any other detail that would 
allow us to verify the event.  I am well aware of the horrendous flight that 
earned the pilot and bombardier of a Fortress both the MoH -- that one was 
supposedly verified at over 1,000 bullets.  There is no denying that the B-17 
could absorb more punishment (and more bullets) than literally any other WWII 
aircraft, but the nice round number of 3,000 *bullets* (not holes) and the 
lack of mention in other B-17 books (except the ones that claim Caiden as a 
source!) make me believe this is another example of his penchant for 
embellishment.  Do any of you know of this event or have seen it in WWII-era 
documents?

Thanks in advance -- I am not trying to knock the B-17s ruggedness (which is 
impossible to do), just trying to correct the notion that Caiden was a 
historian.  He was not; only a storyteller -- nothing wrong with that, 
collected anecdotes are very fun to read.  However, as in this case, 40 years 
after he wrote about an event, we're still trying to figure out what the hell 
he was talking about!

v/r
Gordon
PS, other examples are claims that LW pilots called the P-38 "Fork Tailed 
Devil" (no, it was simply a "Lightning" to them), and that wild ass story 
about the captured P-38 "duel" with a YB-40!  As with many of his stories, a 
kernal of truth grew into an unbelievable yarn.  


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 16:23:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:23:18 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
References: <197.13f6b295.2b56baa1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c2bcb2$6a7861b0$9191c8cf@altonmain>

    First of all, I want to put out a disclaimer on this post. I sign my
posts "Gordy", not Gordon.
    I disagree with some of what was said in this post. I wasn't there to
prove or disprove anything that Martin Caiden has written about, and so I
don't know if it was true or not. I do know that he has written some of the
best narratives on the B-17 that exist today. "Black Thursday", for example,
which is about the second Schweinfurt raid, was the book that gave me the
feeling of the ebb and flow of battle that took place 4 or 5 miles above the
earth. It is as close as I can come to actually being there.
    My father told me once that his plane had over 900 holes in it. The way
he found that out was when he was being interrogated at Oberusel, the
detainment camp near Frankfurt that all captured airmen had to go through
before being sent to a prison camp. He was told that the Germans counted the
bullet holes, and didn't believe him that he was the tail gunner. They said
that there was no way that his plane could have sustained such damage
without him being killed. The matter was settled when they captured the
tenth crewman a few days later.
I have also read on German lists that the P-38 was indeed called the "fork
tailed devil".
    If some of what Caiden wrote was a bit of a yarn, so be it. I guess that
means that the rest of you vets on this post better watch what you say, or
you may be labeled a bullshitter. Not.
Gordy.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:22 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs


> Gents, on another forum, we are arguing the "merits" of Caiden's old book,
> "Flying Fortress".  As in his other books, there are so many 'sea stories'
> and unverifiable comments that as a reference, its really a poor choice,
> however, some folks still insist...
>
> A quote that he includes from a LtGen or LtCol (I can't recall his name
off
> the top of my head) states categorically that he knew of a Fortress that
was
> struck with 3,000 *bullets* [not shell splinters].  Caiden, as usual, does
> not provide Unit, serial number, pilot name or any other detail that would
> allow us to verify the event.  I am well aware of the horrendous flight
that
> earned the pilot and bombardier of a Fortress both the MoH -- that one was
> supposedly verified at over 1,000 bullets.  There is no denying that the
B-17
> could absorb more punishment (and more bullets) than literally any other
WWII
> aircraft, but the nice round number of 3,000 *bullets* (not holes) and the
> lack of mention in other B-17 books (except the ones that claim Caiden as
a
> source!) make me believe this is another example of his penchant for
> embellishment.  Do any of you know of this event or have seen it in
WWII-era
> documents?
>
> Thanks in advance -- I am not trying to knock the B-17s ruggedness (which
is
> impossible to do), just trying to correct the notion that Caiden was a
> historian.  He was not; only a storyteller -- nothing wrong with that,
> collected anecdotes are very fun to read.  However, as in this case, 40
years
> after he wrote about an event, we're still trying to figure out what the
hell
> he was talking about!
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> PS, other examples are claims that LW pilots called the P-38 "Fork Tailed
> Devil" (no, it was simply a "Lightning" to them), and that wild ass story
> about the captured P-38 "duel" with a YB-40!  As with many of his stories,
a
> kernal of truth grew into an unbelievable yarn.
>
>




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 17:22:00 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:22:00 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG Nurses
Message-ID: 

The "EGG NOG" recipe reminded me of a story that Mel Schulstad told
me not to long ago. Evidently in the 303rd "Hells Angels" Bar the =
officers
were good enough to buy Base Nurses drinks "No Surprise".

The Nurses being good sports "were good enough" to allow the shoes
that they were wearing to be dipped into coal dust. This being done they
were they turned upside down and lifted up to the ceiling of the hut and
"walked" inverted thus leaving their shoe prints on top of the hut.
ALL of this with the assistance of some well lubricated pilots.

Gosh I wonder if any of those "light headed" Nurses wore skirts back =
then??

Cheers

Greg Pierce
8th AFHS - WA


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 17:41:25 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:41:25 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] how about 600 holes?
References: <197.13f6b295.2b56baa1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E259D45.28653E66@tampabay.rr.com>

 The Collings Foundation B-17 was named “Nine-O-Nine” in honor of a 91st Bomb
Group, 323rd Squadron plane of the same name which completed 140 missions without
an abort or loss of a crewman.

 The original “Nine-O-Nine” was assigned to combat on February 25, 1944. By April
1945, she had made eighteen trips to Berlin, dropped 562,000 pounds of bombs, and
flown 1,129 hours. She had twenty-one engine changes, four wing panel changes,
fifteen main gas tank changes, and 18 Tokyo tank changes (long-range fuel tanks).
She also suffered from considerable flak damage.

 After European hostilities ceased, “Nine-O-Nine”, with its six-hundred patched
holes, flew back to the United States. While the rigors of war never stopped the
historic “Nine-O-Nine”, she succumbed at last to the scrappers guillotine, along
with thousands of other proud aircraft.

 Tax deductible contributions to help pay off the annual operating costs of two
thousand dollars per hour can be sent to the Collings Foundation at PO Box 248,
Stow, MA. 10775.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One plane came back with over 400 shell holes,

http://www.softwhale.com/history/b-17/survivability.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

hundreds of bullet holes.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/history_of_flight/44514

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

revealed many hundreds of flak holes,

http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0597valor.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
175 holes
http://www.chez.com/warbirds/ew.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Crew Chief counted over 100 holes in his B-17
http://www.303rdbga.com/358gobrecht.html






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 19:31:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:31:20 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Gunner Efficiencies
Message-ID: <18c.1493b483.2b571108@aol.com>

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A nasty computer virus kept me from commenting on the subject matter in a 
timely manner, but here goes:

I suspect that tail gunners had the greatest success. With the exception of a 
nose attack virtually any fighter attack would result in the attacker flying 
a pursuit curve which would ultimately position a conscientious attacker 
directly behind his target thus giving the tail gunner a shot that required 
little or no consideration of proper lead. This assumes, of course, that the 
computed and estimated leads of the turret and waist gunners were ineffective 
during the early stages of the attack.

It should be remembered that the turret operators had to identify the 
attacking aircraft and make reticule adjustments to provide range information 
necessary for the turret computer to compute and implement the proper lead. 
The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This allowed the introduction 
of error which was not a factor for the tail gunner. His sole concern for 
most of the attack was to keep the junction of his cross hairs on the target. 


This discussion reminds me -- during the last visit of the Aluminum Overcast 
to Tucson I noticed that the handheld guns had what appeared to be a 
computing sight in lieu of the ring and post sights I observed in gunnery 
school and during my tour with the 303rd in 1944. I couldn't read the part 
number on the sight but I did see that it was a Sperry product. Did any of 
you old waist or tail gunners ever see such a sight in the 303rd?

*For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25 years ago by military 
contract estimators in the aerospace industry meaning Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.

Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob
  

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A nasty computer virus kept me from commenting on the subject matter in a timely manner, but here goes:



I suspect that tail gunners had the greatest success. With the exception of a nose attack virtually any fighter attack would result in the attacker flying a pursuit curve which would ultimately position a conscientious attacker directly behind his target thus giving the tail gunner a shot that required little or no consideration of proper lead. This assumes, of course, that the computed and estimated leads of the turret and waist gunners were ineffective during the early stages of the attack.



It should be remembered that the turret operators had to identify the attacking aircraft and make reticule adjustments to provide range information necessary for the turret computer to compute and implement the proper lead. The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This allowed the introduction of error which was not a factor for the tail gunner. His sole concern for most of the attack was to keep the junction of his cross hairs on the target. 



This discussion reminds me -- during the last visit of the Aluminum Overcast to Tucson I noticed that the handheld guns had what appeared to be a computing sight in lieu of the ring and post sights I observed in gunnery school and during my tour with the 303rd in 1944. I couldn't read the part number on the sight but I did see that it was a Sperry product. Did any of you old waist or tail gunners ever see such a sight in the 303rd?



*For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25 years ago by military contract estimators in the aerospace industry meaning Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.



Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob

  

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 20:47:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Walling)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:47:44 -1000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Gunner Efficiencies
In-Reply-To: <18c.1493b483.2b571108@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030115104744.0089cb90@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>

We were taught in gunnery school that the waist and other non-turret
gunners should allow 3 rads lead when firing at a plane flying a pursuit
curve. Fortunately, our radioman allowed three rads lead when he fired at
our escort p-4,7 who was flying parallel to us 


Jim Walling


At 02:31 PM 1/15/03 EST, you wrote: 

>>>>

. The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This
allowed the introduction of error which was not a factor for the tail
gunner. His sole concern for most of the attack was to keep the junction
of his cross hairs on the target. 



*For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25
years ago by military contract estimators in the aerospace industry
meaning Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.


Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob

   

<<<<<<<<





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 15 23:33:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:33:50 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "SWAG"
Message-ID: <000c01c2bcee$91105440$92bb9ace@mjpmtman>

To Ol Bob---WE squirrel hunters in Nebraska call it "Kentucky
Windage".---Maurice J. Paulk



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 01:29:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:29:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] To:  Harry Goebrecht
In-Reply-To: <6d.738d89f.2b563278@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030116012923.17953.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

You are a walking encyclopedia, Harry.  I know we all
appreciate your recent posts!
Kevin


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 01:52:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:52:02 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: AOG
Message-ID: <006001c2bd01$dedc6d40$ec970243@default>

Dave,
My Dad, Otis A Hoyt  Nav 360th Fredericks crew, did a few missions in AOG
Not In Stock  #42-5788 (360BS) PU-H, so I was looking around and ran across
a picture somewhere that had written under it AOG "Always On Ground" out of
which I got a chuckle.
My two cents




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 02:23:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:23:34 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
Message-ID: <195.13fd54f8.2b5771a6@aol.com>

Hi Gang,
     This may very well never get sent. I'll see what it sounds like when and 
if I ever get it finished. I have heard before the Germans called the P38 a 
forked tailed whatever and I have no reason to doubt it. After it got the 
aileron boost it was a formidable fighter. I went through Pilot advanced in 
P38s and had anticipated I would fly them in combat. Most all my Advanced 
classmates went into P38s and many after they flew them a while in Europe. 
Were replaced by P51s. I have never talked to one of my P38 classmates that 
did not prefer the P38 over the P51. They had similar performance. If you 
lost an engine you still had a pretty good fighter to get you back to 
England. Sitting between the 2 engines gave you good armor plate. I think 
they were replaced because they used twice as much fuel, They used twice as 
many engine mechanics to service them and twice as many spark plugs and other 
engine parts to keep them flying.  Like the rest of this letter, This is just 
my opinion. I know NOTHING officially.
     Now the 6000 holes.  Most all of the stories I have read about that I 
knew the incidents, first hand I have found to be exasperated, distorted full 
of plane old BS and sometime difficult to even find an element of truth in 
them I put the 6000 holes in one mission in this category. I do believe the 
600 holes in the one airplanes career and would not believe that to be really 
unusual.  We came home once with a few over 300 holes from one mission It was 
flak, not fighters and we didn't have one man wounded on that mission. We did 
have one and a half engines out. Control wires all over the cockpit No 
brakes, no hydraulics, a flat tire, no Unicom and two worried pilots. I shut 
every thing off on final so we would have nothing hot to start a fire in the 
leaking fuel tanks and landed dead stick All of us walked away after we 
landed except about half of the crew who ran.
     Each squadron had a few old experienced copilots they had fly with new 
crews on their first mission. I had about a 1000 hours in a gunnery school in 
B17s before I got put on a combat crew. I had about equal time in both seats 
so I was equally at home in either seat.  I was one of those pilots in the 
358th. No one ever told me just what my duties were on this assignment, but I 
always assumed I was the check pilot and took absolute charge. No one ever 
questioned me about that and knowing me as I do it wouldn't have made a damn 
bit of difference anyway. No matter what position I was flying I always 
assumed that I had absolute veto power on any decision any one in the plane 
made regardless of his position or rank.
     Most of our flak damage came between the IP and bombs away when we had 
to fly close formation at a constant air speed and altitude to get a good 
bomb pattern on the target and hit it I always liked the other pilot to fly 
the bomb run so I could watch the flak. And dodge it when appropriate which 
it very often was. On one mission I was flying copilot with a new crew on 
their first mission. The pilot would not fly close formation.  There were 
lots of German fighters in the area on that mission and I wanted to stay in 
tight formation so I flew the bomb run. Just before bombs away the pilot said 
"no 3 has no oil pressure. I said "feather it quick and give me 2400. About 
then we dropped the bombs and the lead made a steep left turn and increased 
the airspeed to 170.  I said get that damn engine feathered and give me 2500 
so I can keep up He said it won't feather. I said you take it and let me try. 
I did get it feathered after a bit but when I looked up we were well behind 
our formation. Two FW190s pulled up beside us about 1500 yard off our right 
wing and slowed down to our speed. I did not know any of the crew.  I said 
over the Unicom." If they attack us I am going to turn into them in a steep 
diving right turn Top turret get you guns up at 12 o'clock, they will 
probably pass over us and you won't have much time to shoot so be ready. They 
did start a turn into us from about our 2 o'clock. I watched them until they 
were about in a position to fire at us I made a very abrupt diving right turn 
diving enough to temporarily put us all against our seat belts. This meant 
the Germans would have to be against their seat belts' in order to lead us 
enough to hit us. They didn't hit us and passed directly over us and the top 
turret never fired one round at them. I think it was the first time he had 
ever experienced negative Gs. Now had I turned away from them there was no 
way I could out run them and they would have no doubt slowed down, fell in 
behind us and shot us down and we would be on their gun cameras and I 
wouldn't be sitting here writing this letter about the Germans gun cameras.  
You see most all the German gun camera film I have seen shooting down B17s 
they were sitting on ones tail and shooting round after round into the B17 
trying to run from them. The poor tail gunner was probably dead from their 
first rounds        
       There was one other thing I wanted to talk about but I talk too much 
on this forum and this is already so long probably no one will read it and 
maybe Gary and/or Gordy will do away with it. If not Good night.    
     Best Wishes,
         Jack Rencher 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 06:24:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:24:14 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
References: <195.13fd54f8.2b5771a6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005001c2bd27$e4c6c040$de1c77d8@h4k3401>

Jack, there's no way that you talk too much. Not enough would be more like it!
BEST regards, - - David Young
______________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Cc: ; 
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:23 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling


> Hi Gang,
>      This may very well never get sent. I'll see what it sounds like when and
> if I ever get it finished. I have heard before the Germans called the P38 a
> forked tailed whatever and I have no reason to doubt it. After it got the
> aileron boost it was a formidable fighter. I went through Pilot advanced in
> P38s and had anticipated I would fly them in combat. Most all my Advanced
> classmates went into P38s and many after they flew them a while in Europe.
> Were replaced by P51s. I have never talked to one of my P38 classmates that
> did not prefer the P38 over the P51. They had similar performance. If you
> lost an engine you still had a pretty good fighter to get you back to
> England. Sitting between the 2 engines gave you good armor plate. I think
> they were replaced because they used twice as much fuel, They used twice as
> many engine mechanics to service them and twice as many spark plugs and other
> engine parts to keep them flying.  Like the rest of this letter, This is just
> my opinion. I know NOTHING officially.
>      Now the 6000 holes.  Most all of the stories I have read about that I
> knew the incidents, first hand I have found to be exasperated, distorted full
> of plane old BS and sometime difficult to even find an element of truth in
> them I put the 6000 holes in one mission in this category. I do believe the
> 600 holes in the one airplanes career and would not believe that to be really
> unusual.  We came home once with a few over 300 holes from one mission It was
> flak, not fighters and we didn't have one man wounded on that mission. We did
> have one and a half engines out. Control wires all over the cockpit No
> brakes, no hydraulics, a flat tire, no Unicom and two worried pilots. I shut
> every thing off on final so we would have nothing hot to start a fire in the
> leaking fuel tanks and landed dead stick All of us walked away after we
> landed except about half of the crew who ran.
>      Each squadron had a few old experienced copilots they had fly with new
> crews on their first mission. I had about a 1000 hours in a gunnery school in
> B17s before I got put on a combat crew. I had about equal time in both seats
> so I was equally at home in either seat.  I was one of those pilots in the
> 358th. No one ever told me just what my duties were on this assignment, but I
> always assumed I was the check pilot and took absolute charge. No one ever
> questioned me about that and knowing me as I do it wouldn't have made a damn
> bit of difference anyway. No matter what position I was flying I always
> assumed that I had absolute veto power on any decision any one in the plane
> made regardless of his position or rank.
>      Most of our flak damage came between the IP and bombs away when we had
> to fly close formation at a constant air speed and altitude to get a good
> bomb pattern on the target and hit it I always liked the other pilot to fly
> the bomb run so I could watch the flak. And dodge it when appropriate which
> it very often was. On one mission I was flying copilot with a new crew on
> their first mission. The pilot would not fly close formation.  There were
> lots of German fighters in the area on that mission and I wanted to stay in
> tight formation so I flew the bomb run. Just before bombs away the pilot said
> "no 3 has no oil pressure. I said "feather it quick and give me 2400. About
> then we dropped the bombs and the lead made a steep left turn and increased
> the airspeed to 170.  I said get that damn engine feathered and give me 2500
> so I can keep up He said it won't feather. I said you take it and let me try.
> I did get it feathered after a bit but when I looked up we were well behind
> our formation. Two FW190s pulled up beside us about 1500 yard off our right
> wing and slowed down to our speed. I did not know any of the crew.  I said
> over the Unicom." If they attack us I am going to turn into them in a steep
> diving right turn Top turret get you guns up at 12 o'clock, they will
> probably pass over us and you won't have much time to shoot so be ready. They
> did start a turn into us from about our 2 o'clock. I watched them until they
> were about in a position to fire at us I made a very abrupt diving right turn
> diving enough to temporarily put us all against our seat belts. This meant
> the Germans would have to be against their seat belts' in order to lead us
> enough to hit us. They didn't hit us and passed directly over us and the top
> turret never fired one round at them. I think it was the first time he had
> ever experienced negative Gs. Now had I turned away from them there was no
> way I could out run them and they would have no doubt slowed down, fell in
> behind us and shot us down and we would be on their gun cameras and I
> wouldn't be sitting here writing this letter about the Germans gun cameras.
> You see most all the German gun camera film I have seen shooting down B17s
> they were sitting on ones tail and shooting round after round into the B17
> trying to run from them. The poor tail gunner was probably dead from their
> first rounds
>        There was one other thing I wanted to talk about but I talk too much
> on this forum and this is already so long probably no one will read it and
> maybe Gary and/or Gordy will do away with it. If not Good night.
>      Best Wishes,
>          Jack Rencher
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 12:20:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:20:14 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
References: <197.13f6b295.2b56baa1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9262.1042719614@www10.gmx.net>

The German word was "Gabelschwanz", Gabel=fork , schwanz=tail, the devil was
free for choice. 
My mother and I did not know, it was dangerous, my mother was told of that
Mr. Weissgerber, that she should run for our lives. 
Later I saw these nice birds dayly passing the "Saarnberg", were I lived,
flying across the English headquarter of "Uhlenhorst", where resided the big
bosses of the Hitler-era. Another famous place, was the Villa Hügel, which
Hitler often visited dayly from there, and the Gabelschwaenze (=pl) the more.. 
For me the Gabelschwaenze were the nicest birds I knew and I built one from
paper. I often beckoned to them, to the gunner, too, of cause. They were my
friends.
Bernd 

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 14:19:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:19:57 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
References: <195.13fd54f8.2b5771a6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c2bd6a$59dc2d60$df91c8cf@altonmain>

Do away with a 'Lo Jack Posting? Not likely, my friend.
You just keep on rambling all you like...it is always pertinent...
Gordy.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Cc: ; 
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:23 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling


> Hi Gang,
>      This may very well never get sent. I'll see what it sounds like when
and
> if I ever get it finished. I have heard before the Germans called the P38
a
> forked tailed whatever and I have no reason to . . . . . . >




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 22:01:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:01:57 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #820 - 11 msgs
References: <20030116170202.9D28653663@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c2bdaa$e444cf80$0000a398@SHANK>

Some more Martin Caiden lore. I read his books many years ago and recall not
being too impressed with his accuracy. The one bit of reportage that still
sticks in my mind is the story of the hot pilot who jumped into the left
hand seat, fired up the engines and took off all by himself. I remember
trying to envisage all the movements he would have to go thru to accomplish
this and decided it really was too much of a stretch unless he had four arms
that could reach out to long distances, etc., etc.  Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #820 - 11 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs (Gordon Alton)
>    2. RE: 303rd BG Nurses (Pierce, Gregory S)
>    3. how about 600 holes? (Steve)
>    4. B-17 Gunner Efficiencies (hans80@aol.com)
>    5. Re: B-17 Gunner Efficiencies (James Walling)
>    6. "SWAG" (Maurice Paulk)
>    7. Re: To:  Harry Goebrecht (Kevin Pearson)
>    8. RE: AOG (Bill Hoyt)
>    9. Several Subjects Rambling (Jprencher@aol.com)
>   10. Re: Several Subjects Rambling (David Y)
>   11. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs (schlueter@gmx.ch)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Gordon Alton" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:23:18 -0800
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>     First of all, I want to put out a disclaimer on this post. I sign my
> posts "Gordy", not Gordon.
>     I disagree with some of what was said in this post. I wasn't there to
> prove or disprove anything that Martin Caiden has written about, and so I
> don't know if it was true or not. I do know that he has written some of
the
> best narratives on the B-17 that exist today. "Black Thursday", for
example,
> which is about the second Schweinfurt raid, was the book that gave me the
> feeling of the ebb and flow of battle that took place 4 or 5 miles above
the
> earth. It is as close as I can come to actually being there.
>     My father told me once that his plane had over 900 holes in it. The
way
> he found that out was when he was being interrogated at Oberusel, the
> detainment camp near Frankfurt that all captured airmen had to go through
> before being sent to a prison camp. He was told that the Germans counted
the
> bullet holes, and didn't believe him that he was the tail gunner. They
said
> that there was no way that his plane could have sustained such damage
> without him being killed. The matter was settled when they captured the
> tenth crewman a few days later.
> I have also read on German lists that the P-38 was indeed called the "fork
> tailed devil".
>     If some of what Caiden wrote was a bit of a yarn, so be it. I guess
that
> means that the rest of you vets on this post better watch what you say, or
> you may be labeled a bullshitter. Not.
> Gordy.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:22 AM
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
>
>
> > Gents, on another forum, we are arguing the "merits" of Caiden's old
book,
> > "Flying Fortress".  As in his other books, there are so many 'sea
stories'
> > and unverifiable comments that as a reference, its really a poor choice,
> > however, some folks still insist...
> >
> > A quote that he includes from a LtGen or LtCol (I can't recall his name
> off
> > the top of my head) states categorically that he knew of a Fortress that
> was
> > struck with 3,000 *bullets* [not shell splinters].  Caiden, as usual,
does
> > not provide Unit, serial number, pilot name or any other detail that
would
> > allow us to verify the event.  I am well aware of the horrendous flight
> that
> > earned the pilot and bombardier of a Fortress both the MoH -- that one
was
> > supposedly verified at over 1,000 bullets.  There is no denying that the
> B-17
> > could absorb more punishment (and more bullets) than literally any other
> WWII
> > aircraft, but the nice round number of 3,000 *bullets* (not holes) and
the
> > lack of mention in other B-17 books (except the ones that claim Caiden
as
> a
> > source!) make me believe this is another example of his penchant for
> > embellishment.  Do any of you know of this event or have seen it in
> WWII-era
> > documents?
> >
> > Thanks in advance -- I am not trying to knock the B-17s ruggedness
(which
> is
> > impossible to do), just trying to correct the notion that Caiden was a
> > historian.  He was not; only a storyteller -- nothing wrong with that,
> > collected anecdotes are very fun to read.  However, as in this case, 40
> years
> > after he wrote about an event, we're still trying to figure out what the
> hell
> > he was talking about!
> >
> > v/r
> > Gordon
> > PS, other examples are claims that LW pilots called the P-38 "Fork
Tailed
> > Devil" (no, it was simply a "Lightning" to them), and that wild ass
story
> > about the captured P-38 "duel" with a YB-40!  As with many of his
stories,
> a
> > kernal of truth grew into an unbelievable yarn.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:22:00 -0800
> From: "Pierce, Gregory S" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG Nurses
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> The "EGG NOG" recipe reminded me of a story that Mel Schulstad told
> me not to long ago. Evidently in the 303rd "Hells Angels" Bar the =
> officers
> were good enough to buy Base Nurses drinks "No Surprise".
>
> The Nurses being good sports "were good enough" to allow the shoes
> that they were wearing to be dipped into coal dust. This being done they
> were they turned upside down and lifted up to the ceiling of the hut and
> "walked" inverted thus leaving their shoe prints on top of the hut.
> ALL of this with the assistance of some well lubricated pilots.
>
> Gosh I wonder if any of those "light headed" Nurses wore skirts back =
> then??
>
> Cheers
>
> Greg Pierce
> 8th AFHS - WA
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:41:25 -0500
> From: Steve 
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] how about 600 holes?
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
>  The Collings Foundation B-17 was named "Nine-O-Nine" in honor of a 91st
Bomb
> Group, 323rd Squadron plane of the same name which completed 140 missions
without
> an abort or loss of a crewman.
>
>  The original "Nine-O-Nine" was assigned to combat on February 25, 1944.
By April
> 1945, she had made eighteen trips to Berlin, dropped 562,000 pounds of
bombs, and
> flown 1,129 hours. She had twenty-one engine changes, four wing panel
changes,
> fifteen main gas tank changes, and 18 Tokyo tank changes (long-range fuel
tanks).
> She also suffered from considerable flak damage.
>
>  After European hostilities ceased, "Nine-O-Nine", with its six-hundred
patched
> holes, flew back to the United States. While the rigors of war never
stopped the
> historic "Nine-O-Nine", she succumbed at last to the scrappers guillotine,
along
> with thousands of other proud aircraft.
>
>  Tax deductible contributions to help pay off the annual operating costs
of two
> thousand dollars per hour can be sent to the Collings Foundation at PO Box
248,
> Stow, MA. 10775.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> One plane came back with over 400 shell holes,
>
> http://www.softwhale.com/history/b-17/survivability.htm
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> hundreds of bullet holes.
> http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/history_of_flight/44514
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> revealed many hundreds of flak holes,
>
> http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0597valor.html
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> 175 holes
> http://www.chez.com/warbirds/ew.html
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> The Crew Chief counted over 100 holes in his B-17
> http://www.303rdbga.com/358gobrecht.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: hans80@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:31:20 EST
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Gunner Efficiencies
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> --part1_18c.1493b483.2b571108_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> A nasty computer virus kept me from commenting on the subject matter in a
> timely manner, but here goes:
>
> I suspect that tail gunners had the greatest success. With the exception
of a
> nose attack virtually any fighter attack would result in the attacker
flying
> a pursuit curve which would ultimately position a conscientious attacker
> directly behind his target thus giving the tail gunner a shot that
required
> little or no consideration of proper lead. This assumes, of course, that
the
> computed and estimated leads of the turret and waist gunners were
ineffective
> during the early stages of the attack.
>
> It should be remembered that the turret operators had to identify the
> attacking aircraft and make reticule adjustments to provide range
information
> necessary for the turret computer to compute and implement the proper
lead.
> The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This allowed the
introduction
> of error which was not a factor for the tail gunner. His sole concern for
> most of the attack was to keep the junction of his cross hairs on the
target.
>
>
> This discussion reminds me -- during the last visit of the Aluminum
Overcast
> to Tucson I noticed that the handheld guns had what appeared to be a
> computing sight in lieu of the ring and post sights I observed in gunnery
> school and during my tour with the 303rd in 1944. I couldn't read the part
> number on the sight but I did see that it was a Sperry product. Did any of
> you old waist or tail gunners ever see such a sight in the 303rd?
>
> *For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25 years ago by
military
> contract estimators in the aerospace industry meaning
Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.
>
> Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob
>
>
> --part1_18c.1493b483.2b571108_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> A nasty computer virus kept me from commenting on the
subject matter in a timely manner, but here goes:

> 

> I suspect that tail gunners had the greatest success. With the exception
of a nose attack virtually any fighter attack would result in the attacker
flying a pursuit curve which would ultimately position a conscientious
attacker directly behind his target thus giving the tail gunner a shot that
required little or no consideration of proper lead. This assumes, of course,
that the computed and estimated leads of the turret and waist gunners were
ineffective during the early stages of the attack.

> 

> It should be remembered that the turret operators had to identify the
attacking aircraft and make reticule adjustments to provide range
information necessary for the turret computer to compute and implement the
proper lead. The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This
allowed the introduction of error which was not a factor for the tail
gunner. His sole concern for most of the attack was to keep the junction of
his cross hairs on the target. 

> 

> This discussion reminds me -- during the last visit of the Aluminum
Overcast to Tucson I noticed that the handheld guns had what appeared to
be a computing sight in lieu of the ring and post sights I observed in
gunnery school and during my tour with the 303rd in 1944. I couldn't read
the part number on the sight but I did see that it was a Sperry product. Did
any of you old waist or tail gunners ever see such a sight in the 303rd?

> 

> *For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25 years ago by
military contract estimators in the aerospace industry meaning
Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.

> 

> Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob

>   
>
> --part1_18c.1493b483.2b571108_boundary--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:47:44 -1000
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> From: James Walling 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Gunner Efficiencies
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> We were taught in gunnery school that the waist and other non-turret
> gunners should allow 3 rads lead when firing at a plane flying a pursuit
> curve. Fortunately, our radioman allowed three rads lead when he fired at
> our escort p-4,7 who was flying parallel to us
>
>
> Jim Walling
>
>
> At 02:31 PM 1/15/03 EST, you wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> . The waist gunners determined lead with a SWAG*. This
> allowed the introduction of error which was not a factor for the tail
> gunner. His sole concern for most of the attack was to keep the junction
> of his cross hairs on the target.
>
>
>
> *For the uninitiated, a SWAG was a widely used term 25
> years ago by military contract estimators in the aerospace industry
> meaning Semi-Wild-Assed-Guess.
>
>
> Cheers Yeyenks, Ol' Bob
>
>
>
> <<<<<<<<
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "Maurice Paulk" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:33:50 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] "SWAG"
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To Ol Bob---WE squirrel hunters in Nebraska call it "Kentucky
> Windage".---Maurice J. Paulk
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:29:23 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To:  Harry Goebrecht
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> You are a walking encyclopedia, Harry.  I know we all
> appreciate your recent posts!
> Kevin
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Bill Hoyt" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:52:02 -0700
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: AOG
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Dave,
> My Dad, Otis A Hoyt  Nav 360th Fredericks crew, did a few missions in AOG
> Not In Stock  #42-5788 (360BS) PU-H, so I was looking around and ran
across
> a picture somewhere that had written under it AOG "Always On Ground" out
of
> which I got a chuckle.
> My two cents
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:23:34 EST
> To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Cc: Coxbije@aol.com, RGrish20@aol.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Hi Gang,
>      This may very well never get sent. I'll see what it sounds like when
and
> if I ever get it finished. I have heard before the Germans called the P38
a
> forked tailed whatever and I have no reason to doubt it. After it got the
> aileron boost it was a formidable fighter. I went through Pilot advanced
in
> P38s and had anticipated I would fly them in combat. Most all my Advanced
> classmates went into P38s and many after they flew them a while in Europe.
> Were replaced by P51s. I have never talked to one of my P38 classmates
that
> did not prefer the P38 over the P51. They had similar performance. If you
> lost an engine you still had a pretty good fighter to get you back to
> England. Sitting between the 2 engines gave you good armor plate. I think
> they were replaced because they used twice as much fuel, They used twice
as
> many engine mechanics to service them and twice as many spark plugs and
other
> engine parts to keep them flying.  Like the rest of this letter, This is
just
> my opinion. I know NOTHING officially.
>      Now the 6000 holes.  Most all of the stories I have read about that I
> knew the incidents, first hand I have found to be exasperated, distorted
full
> of plane old BS and sometime difficult to even find an element of truth in
> them I put the 6000 holes in one mission in this category. I do believe
the
> 600 holes in the one airplanes career and would not believe that to be
really
> unusual.  We came home once with a few over 300 holes from one mission It
was
> flak, not fighters and we didn't have one man wounded on that mission. We
did
> have one and a half engines out. Control wires all over the cockpit No
> brakes, no hydraulics, a flat tire, no Unicom and two worried pilots. I
shut
> every thing off on final so we would have nothing hot to start a fire in
the
> leaking fuel tanks and landed dead stick All of us walked away after we
> landed except about half of the crew who ran.
>      Each squadron had a few old experienced copilots they had fly with
new
> crews on their first mission. I had about a 1000 hours in a gunnery school
in
> B17s before I got put on a combat crew. I had about equal time in both
seats
> so I was equally at home in either seat.  I was one of those pilots in the
> 358th. No one ever told me just what my duties were on this assignment,
but I
> always assumed I was the check pilot and took absolute charge. No one ever
> questioned me about that and knowing me as I do it wouldn't have made a
damn
> bit of difference anyway. No matter what position I was flying I always
> assumed that I had absolute veto power on any decision any one in the
plane
> made regardless of his position or rank.
>      Most of our flak damage came between the IP and bombs away when we
had
> to fly close formation at a constant air speed and altitude to get a good
> bomb pattern on the target and hit it I always liked the other pilot to
fly
> the bomb run so I could watch the flak. And dodge it when appropriate
which
> it very often was. On one mission I was flying copilot with a new crew on
> their first mission. The pilot would not fly close formation.  There were
> lots of German fighters in the area on that mission and I wanted to stay
in
> tight formation so I flew the bomb run. Just before bombs away the pilot
said
> "no 3 has no oil pressure. I said "feather it quick and give me 2400.
About
> then we dropped the bombs and the lead made a steep left turn and
increased
> the airspeed to 170.  I said get that damn engine feathered and give me
2500
> so I can keep up He said it won't feather. I said you take it and let me
try.
> I did get it feathered after a bit but when I looked up we were well
behind
> our formation. Two FW190s pulled up beside us about 1500 yard off our
right
> wing and slowed down to our speed. I did not know any of the crew.  I said
> over the Unicom." If they attack us I am going to turn into them in a
steep
> diving right turn Top turret get you guns up at 12 o'clock, they will
> probably pass over us and you won't have much time to shoot so be ready.
They
> did start a turn into us from about our 2 o'clock. I watched them until
they
> were about in a position to fire at us I made a very abrupt diving right
turn
> diving enough to temporarily put us all against our seat belts. This meant
> the Germans would have to be against their seat belts' in order to lead us
> enough to hit us. They didn't hit us and passed directly over us and the
top
> turret never fired one round at them. I think it was the first time he had
> ever experienced negative Gs. Now had I turned away from them there was no
> way I could out run them and they would have no doubt slowed down, fell in
> behind us and shot us down and we would be on their gun cameras and I
> wouldn't be sitting here writing this letter about the Germans gun
cameras.
> You see most all the German gun camera film I have seen shooting down B17s
> they were sitting on ones tail and shooting round after round into the B17
> trying to run from them. The poor tail gunner was probably dead from their
> first rounds
>        There was one other thing I wanted to talk about but I talk too
much
> on this forum and this is already so long probably no one will read it and
> maybe Gary and/or Gordy will do away with it. If not Good night.
>      Best Wishes,
>          Jack Rencher
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "David Y" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:24:14 -0800
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Jack, there's no way that you talk too much. Not enough would be more like
it!
> BEST regards, - - David Young
> ______________________________________________________________
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Cc: ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:23 PM
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Subjects Rambling
>
>
> > Hi Gang,
> >      This may very well never get sent. I'll see what it sounds like
when and
> > if I ever get it finished. I have heard before the Germans called the
P38 a
> > forked tailed whatever and I have no reason to doubt it. After it got
the
> > aileron boost it was a formidable fighter. I went through Pilot advanced
in
> > P38s and had anticipated I would fly them in combat. Most all my
Advanced
> > classmates went into P38s and many after they flew them a while in
Europe.
> > Were replaced by P51s. I have never talked to one of my P38 classmates
that
> > did not prefer the P38 over the P51. They had similar performance. If
you
> > lost an engine you still had a pretty good fighter to get you back to
> > England. Sitting between the 2 engines gave you good armor plate. I
think
> > they were replaced because they used twice as much fuel, They used twice
as
> > many engine mechanics to service them and twice as many spark plugs and
other
> > engine parts to keep them flying.  Like the rest of this letter, This is
just
> > my opinion. I know NOTHING officially.
> >      Now the 6000 holes.  Most all of the stories I have read about that
I
> > knew the incidents, first hand I have found to be exasperated, distorted
full
> > of plane old BS and sometime difficult to even find an element of truth
in
> > them I put the 6000 holes in one mission in this category. I do believe
the
> > 600 holes in the one airplanes career and would not believe that to be
really
> > unusual.  We came home once with a few over 300 holes from one mission
It was
> > flak, not fighters and we didn't have one man wounded on that mission.
We did
> > have one and a half engines out. Control wires all over the cockpit No
> > brakes, no hydraulics, a flat tire, no Unicom and two worried pilots. I
shut
> > every thing off on final so we would have nothing hot to start a fire in
the
> > leaking fuel tanks and landed dead stick All of us walked away after we
> > landed except about half of the crew who ran.
> >      Each squadron had a few old experienced copilots they had fly with
new
> > crews on their first mission. I had about a 1000 hours in a gunnery
school in
> > B17s before I got put on a combat crew. I had about equal time in both
seats
> > so I was equally at home in either seat.  I was one of those pilots in
the
> > 358th. No one ever told me just what my duties were on this assignment,
but I
> > always assumed I was the check pilot and took absolute charge. No one
ever
> > questioned me about that and knowing me as I do it wouldn't have made a
damn
> > bit of difference anyway. No matter what position I was flying I always
> > assumed that I had absolute veto power on any decision any one in the
plane
> > made regardless of his position or rank.
> >      Most of our flak damage came between the IP and bombs away when we
had
> > to fly close formation at a constant air speed and altitude to get a
good
> > bomb pattern on the target and hit it I always liked the other pilot to
fly
> > the bomb run so I could watch the flak. And dodge it when appropriate
which
> > it very often was. On one mission I was flying copilot with a new crew
on
> > their first mission. The pilot would not fly close formation.  There
were
> > lots of German fighters in the area on that mission and I wanted to stay
in
> > tight formation so I flew the bomb run. Just before bombs away the pilot
said
> > "no 3 has no oil pressure. I said "feather it quick and give me 2400.
About
> > then we dropped the bombs and the lead made a steep left turn and
increased
> > the airspeed to 170.  I said get that damn engine feathered and give me
2500
> > so I can keep up He said it won't feather. I said you take it and let me
try.
> > I did get it feathered after a bit but when I looked up we were well
behind
> > our formation. Two FW190s pulled up beside us about 1500 yard off our
right
> > wing and slowed down to our speed. I did not know any of the crew.  I
said
> > over the Unicom." If they attack us I am going to turn into them in a
steep
> > diving right turn Top turret get you guns up at 12 o'clock, they will
> > probably pass over us and you won't have much time to shoot so be ready.
They
> > did start a turn into us from about our 2 o'clock. I watched them until
they
> > were about in a position to fire at us I made a very abrupt diving right
turn
> > diving enough to temporarily put us all against our seat belts. This
meant
> > the Germans would have to be against their seat belts' in order to lead
us
> > enough to hit us. They didn't hit us and passed directly over us and the
top
> > turret never fired one round at them. I think it was the first time he
had
> > ever experienced negative Gs. Now had I turned away from them there was
no
> > way I could out run them and they would have no doubt slowed down, fell
in
> > behind us and shot us down and we would be on their gun cameras and I
> > wouldn't be sitting here writing this letter about the Germans gun
cameras.
> > You see most all the German gun camera film I have seen shooting down
B17s
> > they were sitting on ones tail and shooting round after round into the
B17
> > trying to run from them. The poor tail gunner was probably dead from
their
> > first rounds
> >        There was one other thing I wanted to talk about but I talk too
much
> > on this forum and this is already so long probably no one will read it
and
> > maybe Gary and/or Gordy will do away with it. If not Good night.
> >      Best Wishes,
> >          Jack Rencher
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:20:14 +0100 (MET)
> From: schlueter@gmx.ch
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #818 - 16 msgs
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> The German word was "Gabelschwanz", Gabel=fork , schwanz=tail, the devil
was
> free for choice.
> My mother and I did not know, it was dangerous, my mother was told of that
> Mr. Weissgerber, that she should run for our lives.
> Later I saw these nice birds dayly passing the "Saarnberg", were I lived,
> flying across the English headquarter of "Uhlenhorst", where resided the
big
> bosses of the Hitler-era. Another famous place, was the Villa Hügel, which
> Hitler often visited dayly from there, and the Gabelschwaenze (=pl) the
more..
> For me the Gabelschwaenze were the nicest birds I knew and I built one
from
> paper. I often beckoned to them, to the gunner, too, of cause. They were
my
> friends.
> Bernd
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 22:21:10 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:21:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "SWAG"
In-Reply-To: <000c01c2bcee$91105440$92bb9ace@mjpmtman>
Message-ID: <20030116222110.19762.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

I've always called it a "Scientific Wild Assed Guess!"
Kevin



--- Maurice Paulk  wrote:
> To Ol Bob---WE squirrel hunters in Nebraska call it
> "Kentucky
> Windage".---Maurice J. Paulk
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 22:26:43 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:26:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying Forts/Boom Town
In-Reply-To: <001f01c2bcb2$6a7861b0$9191c8cf@altonmain>
Message-ID: <20030116222643.76841.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

One of the first books on the 8th I ever read at the
tender age of 10 was Caiden's Flying Forts.  In this
book he devoted a chapter to Boom Town, a Forts that
limps back to the Channel after being shot up over the
target.  Boom Town had wounded on board, a couple of
engines are out - you get the picture.  As Boom Town
crosses the Channel, she keeps loosing altitude.  The
crew jettisons everything, but to no avail.  Boom Town
hits the water, and according to Caiden, the
ball-turret is in such a position that it throws her
300 feet back into the air!!!!  This happens,
allegedly, three times before she makes landfall.

Fact or fiction?  Could this happen?  Jack R., I know
you must have an idea if it is possible.  I've
wondered about this for 37 years!!!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 16 22:44:29 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:44:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The P-38
In-Reply-To: <195.13fd54f8.2b5771a6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030116224429.40112.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Close your eyes and picture this - a P-38 with two
Rolls Royce Merlins.  Lockheed even built a prototype,
but by that point of the war, the 51 was doing its job
and the cost to modify the nacalles on the 38 for the
new engine would have been prohibitive.  Here's a
great poem.  Kevin

Ode To The P-38 

Oh, Heddy Lamarr is a beautiful gal,
And Madeleine Carroll is, too.
But you'll find if you'll query, a different theory,
Among the men of a bomber crew.

For the loveliest thing of which one could sing,
(This side of the Heavenly Gates,)
Is no blonde or brunette of the Hollywood set,
But an escort of P-38s.

T/Sgt. Robert H. Bryson, B-17 gunner


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 07:40:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:40:51 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying Forts/Boom Town
Message-ID: <3f.16b045f3.2b590d83@aol.com>

Friend Kevin,
     The power off stalling speed of their unloaded B17 I would guess after 
some 55 or so years to forget would be around 75-80 MPH. If they hit they 
water slightly above stall speed The first thing that hit would be the tail 
not the ball. the drag of the tail in the water would cause the nose 
including the propeller blades to somewhat bury Them selves momentarily in 
the water and do away with their speed nearly instantly.' 
     If they hit the water fast enough for the ball to hit first the 
propellers would be in the water also. This drag would also stop their 
forward motion nearly instantly as the drag of the ball would pull their nose 
down not bounce it up
     If they hit the water below their stall speed even if the had a hull 
like a speed boat they would have no speed to bounce forward with and those 
bent props and four air intakes full of water would not be conducive to 
providing any.
      I have never tried this one but my humble opinion is NO WAY. It just 
didn't happen Ever who wrote that was a great BIG Texas Rancher but the only 
cattle he ever shipped  were Bulls 
     Best Wishes,
           Jack Rencher


.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 08:08:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:08:34 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The P-38
Message-ID: <37.327ed50e.2b591402@aol.com>

Friend Kevin, 
     Thanks for the poem about the P38. I think I''ll print it and frame it. 
Man wouldn't a P38 with Merlin engines be by far an OUTSTANDING Bird?  Do you 
suppose Packard had enough production facilities to build those engines and 
keep North American supplied for their P51s?.They could have reversed the 
propeller direction in one engine in the reduction gearing like they did in 
the Allisons.
     Very Best Wishes again.
               Jack
       P.S. Yes I think one could fly a B17 without a copilot if he had long 
arms, didn't fasten his seat belt, and didn't push or pull some levers and 
switches quite on time. You would have to take your hand off the throttles at 
a very risky time on take off and landings for the props, turbos, mixtures, 
gear, flaps, cowl flaps, throttle lock, etc., and etc.  If you lost an engine 
just as you reached down to pull the gear up you'd probably lose it all.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 17:17:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The P-38
In-Reply-To: <37.327ed50e.2b591402@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030117171753.61254.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

I saw a picture of the Lockheed P-38 with Merlins (or
maybe it was Griffons).  I am convinced this
arrangement would have produced the most outstanding
fighter of WWII - not too far off from a Dehavilland
Mosquito, really.

I've only seen one P-38 in flight a few years ago at
the EAA airshow.  The pilot stood on the brakes and
throttled her up to what sounded like full power,
released the brakes, and away she went.  The sound of
the two Allisons was so smooth, so mellow, and oh so
powerful.  I can't even begin to think what she would
have sounded like with Merlins or Griffons.
Cheers!
Kevin
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Friend Kevin, 
>      Thanks for the poem about the P38. I think
> I''ll print it and frame it. 
> Man wouldn't a P38 with Merlin engines be by far an
> OUTSTANDING Bird?  Do you 
> suppose Packard had enough production facilities to
> build those engines and 
> keep North American supplied for their P51s?.They
> could have reversed the 
> propeller direction in one engine in the reduction
> gearing like they did in 
> the Allisons.
>      Very Best Wishes again.
>                Jack
>        P.S. Yes I think one could fly a B17 without
> a copilot if he had long 
> arms, didn't fasten his seat belt, and didn't push
> or pull some levers and 
> switches quite on time. You would have to take your
> hand off the throttles at 
> a very risky time on take off and landings for the
> props, turbos, mixtures, 
> gear, flaps, cowl flaps, throttle lock, etc., and
> etc.  If you lost an engine 
> just as you reached down to pull the gear up you'd
> probably lose it all.
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 17:24:31 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:24:31 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #821 - 7 msgs
Message-ID: <11a.1d2865c6.2b59964f@aol.com>

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Mission numbers shown on the Molesworth Story CD. Can someone refer me to the 
target of these mission numbers?  I would like to know this so I can make a 
list of my missions/target. My kids will have some history of their father.
Thanks,
Bob

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Mission numbers shown on the Molesworth Story CD. Can someone refer me to the target of these mission numbers?  I would like to know this so I can make a list of my missions/target. My kids will have some history of their father.

Thanks,

Bob

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 18:52:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:52:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "SWAG"
Message-ID: <63.172909ad.2b59aae3@aol.com>

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Kevin, That works. Ol' Bob

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Kevin, That works. Ol' Bob

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 17 21:18:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:18:19 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #821 - 7 msgs
In-Reply-To: <11a.1d2865c6.2b59964f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E2810AB.15074.1B2F07A@localhost>

> Mission numbers shown on the Molesworth Story CD. Can someone
> refer me to the target of these mission numbers?  I would like
> to know this so I can make a list of my missions/target. My kids
> will have some history of their father. Thanks,

Sure,
Click on "Index of Missions"
That lists all the targets and links to the mission reports, 
which also show the targets and dates.

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 20 05:04:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Henrique?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:04:32 -0300 (ART)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Schweinfurt raids commemoration book
Message-ID: <20030120050432.83263.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Sirs:
I am collecting reference material about the
Schweinfurt raids for a commemorative book to be
released in July/August. With the pleasure to be
contacted by many veterans for share experiences and
memorabilia, I would like to include pictures and
related material from yours association files. As my
deadline is short, if possible, any offering could be
sent to my e-mail in form of scan in 300dpi and 2,5 x
3,5' minimum size. The book will be printed in
portuguese and english, being a up to date graphic
concept of information. 
With this extensive work, I hope to honor everyone
involved in those dramatic battles.
Thankfull of any action,
Sincerely,
Joao Henrique Barone Reis Silva
DesignIn Productions & Research
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

_______________________________________________________________________
Busca Yahoo!
O melhor lugar para encontrar tudo o que você procura na Internet
http://br.busca.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Jan 20 17:48:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:48:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Boom Town II
In-Reply-To: <20030116222643.76841.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030120174813.22906.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack R:  Here is a new twist on Boom Town.  What if
Boom Town had hit a large wave in the Channel, could
that have thrown her up in the air?  I hope I'm not
beating a dead horse!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 21 00:23:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:23:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story CD
In-Reply-To: <3E2810AB.15074.1B2F07A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030121002344.81324.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com>

My wife bought the CD for me for Christmas. 

Amazing detail... now I know every mission my father
flew from Molesworth.

Thank you, Gary.

William Patrick Maher 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 21 00:09:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:09:09 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Boom Town II
In-Reply-To: <20030120174813.22906.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20030116222643.76841.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E2C4955.27080.26FDDF8@localhost>


> Jack R:  Here is a new twist on Boom Town.  What if
> Boom Town had hit a large wave in the Channel, could
> that have thrown her up in the air?  I hope I'm not
> beating a dead horse!

  I really want to hear what Jack says on this, but the B-17 pilot 
training manual says that in winds less than 10mph, that the ditching 
should be done parallel to the swells, so they wouldn't hit a wave 
straight on.  However if the wind was strong, they'd probably have to 
land upwind, hitting the waves head on, which would probably be nasty 
to land on.
    Interestingly, I've heard that B-24s typically broke in two if 
they tried to ditch on water, but B-17s usually survived intact.

    This business of landing and taking off on water is interesting 
to me.  A couple years ago, a 1950s era seaplane, (I think it was a 
grumman albatross) landed on a relatively small pond near my house. 
Landing wasn't a problem, but we were thinking that he would have a 
hard time taking off.  Turns out that what the plane did, was to 
circle in the pond a few times to get the waves going on the pond.  
Apparently the waves help the plane break the surface tension with 
the water, allowing it to get airborne quicker.  Ie, the waves bounce 
the plane up into the air a bit helping to get off the water.  I 
would assume that this sort of thing could happen on landing also, if 
landing into significant waves.  




 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 21 12:02:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:02:49 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Boom Town II
References: <3E2C4955.27080.26FDDF8@localhost>
Message-ID: <9722.1043150569@www61.gmx.net>

To seaplanes: The "swimmers" (is this word existing?) always are bent in a
convex form, which will draw the plane deep into the water at hydodynamic,
which means, low velocities. After the plane gets its "feet" onto the surface,
this drag is gone and the start will be easy. You know this drag from the
wings, but here is the more convex side to the heaven and it will be drawn to
there. The small waves will create a disruption of the water stream, it stalls,
the drag is away and the airplane will soon become airborn. At high
velocities, You will not find this problem, there will be always a stall, due to the
"hypersonic" water stream, which has nothing to do with sound, but with the
slower movement of water "waves". 

If I am right, every landing plane, with, or without swimmers, will touch
the water normally (low waves only) without problems. When it has become
slower, it will be drawn into the water, at least stopping abruptly. 
Normal boats behave in the same mannor, You get much power to get some air
below the body, then it workes well. Ever tried water-ski and suceeded in
using waves for help?
If a water wave hits a plane vertically at higher velocities, it always will
break. If you land parallel to high waves, you will touch with the wings or
engine housing, when the body dives into a valley. At a velocity of 100 miles
per hour, there will be a force of about 10 tons per squarefoot.

Bernd

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 21 17:06:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:06:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Boom Town II
In-Reply-To: <3E2C4955.27080.26FDDF8@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030121170648.67925.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill Jones:  I did some more thinking about Boom Town
hitting a wave and bouncing back into the air, and I
just don't think it could happen.  Caiden says it was
the ball turret that was positioned so that when the
plane hit the water, it was thrown something like 300
feet back into the air.  The ball turret is pretty far
up on the underneath side of the fuselage, and I am
quite sure Jack is right about the tail hitting first,
creating such drag the ship would be pulled down into
the water.  Also, if the pilot was tyring to land, he
wasn't pulling much power especially with a two
engines out.  I just don't think this ever happened,
but will leave it to the experts who flew the ships
and know their performance characteristics.

About lfoat planes.  Alaska has the most planes per
capita of anywhere in the world.  Lake Hood is the
largest float plane base in the world and is right
next to Anchorage International.  I've watched
hundreds take off and I have seen planes go in circles
on the water and always wondered why - good point.  As
they approach take off speed, many tip one wing down,
pulling one of the pontoons out of the water first,
then away they go.  We have some mighty crazy bush
pilots up here!
Kevin


--- Bill Jones  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Jack R:  Here is a new twist on Boom Town.  What
> if
> > Boom Town had hit a large wave in the Channel,
> could
> > that have thrown her up in the air?  I hope I'm
> not
> > beating a dead horse!
> 
>   I really want to hear what Jack says on this, but
> the B-17 pilot 
> training manual says that in winds less than 10mph,
> that the ditching 
> should be done parallel to the swells, so they
> wouldn't hit a wave 
> straight on.  However if the wind was strong, they'd
> probably have to 
> land upwind, hitting the waves head on, which would
> probably be nasty 
> to land on.
>     Interestingly, I've heard that B-24s typically
> broke in two if 
> they tried to ditch on water, but B-17s usually
> survived intact.
> 
>     This business of landing and taking off on water
> is interesting 
> to me.  A couple years ago, a 1950s era seaplane, (I
> think it was a 
> grumman albatross) landed on a relatively small pond
> near my house. 
> Landing wasn't a problem, but we were thinking that
> he would have a 
> hard time taking off.  Turns out that what the plane
> did, was to 
> circle in the pond a few times to get the waves
> going on the pond.  
> Apparently the waves help the plane break the
> surface tension with 
> the water, allowing it to get airborne quicker.  Ie,
> the waves bounce 
> the plane up into the air a bit helping to get off
> the water.  I 
> would assume that this sort of thing could happen on
> landing also, if 
> landing into significant waves.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine  
> wejones@megalink.net               
>                            
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones  
>          
>  WWII/B-17 page  
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
>  
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 21 18:33:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:33:53 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Water Landings
Message-ID: <196.145f30b8.2b5eec91@aol.com>

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The Albatross that landed in a small pond was circling so as to gain enough 
speed for take-off. We instructed pilots to do just that at West Palm Beach 
in the 1950s on Lake Okachobee About open sea landings, we normally landed 
parallel to the swells. Actually the higher the swells the faster they moved 
and there were more 'flat' spots in which to land. The direction of the 
swells do not usually have any relation to the local winds. They are 
generated from some distance away. If the aircraft hits a swell on the back 
side of the swell it will propel the aircraft into the air but I drought that 
it would be as much as 300 feet. A swell is much like the action of a rope 
tied to a fixed point. The water in the swell does not move in the direction 
of the swell. On the back side of the swell the water particles are moving in 
an upward direction, the top of the swell the particles are moving in the 
direction of the swell's movement and the front side of the swell the 
particles are moving downward. When landing in the open sea we always landed 
parallels to the swell. It's been a few years since I landed a Grumman 
Albatross but I instructed in the aircraft for all phases of it's operation, 
land, sheltered water, open sea and snow and ice.
Bill D    

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The Albatross that landed in a small pond was circling so as to gain enough speed for take-off. We instructed pilots to do just that at West Palm Beach in the 1950s on Lake Okachobee About open sea landings, we normally landed parallel to the swells. Actually the higher the swells the faster they moved and there were more 'flat' spots in which to land. The direction of the swells do not usually have any relation to the local winds. They are generated from some distance away. If the aircraft hits a swell on the back side of the swell it will propel the aircraft into the air but I drought that it would be as much as 300 feet. A swell is much like the action of a rope tied to a fixed point. The water in the swell does not move in the direction of the swell. On the back side of the swell the water particles are moving in an upward direction, the top of the swell the particles are moving in the direction of the swell's movement and the front side of the swell the particles are moving downward. When landing in the open sea we always landed parallels to the swell. It's been a few years since I landed a Grumman Albatross but I instructed in the aircraft for all phases of it's operation, land, sheltered water, open sea and snow and ice.

Bill D    

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 22 19:27:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:27:52 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Water Landings
In-Reply-To: <196.145f30b8.2b5eec91@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E2EAA68.23207.784DA5@localhost>


> The Albatross that landed in a small pond was circling so as to gain enough 
> speed for take-off. 

That sounds logical, but it wasn't the reason in this case, because 
after circling, and getting the waves going, he went to the end of 
the pond, and came to a complete stop before making the actual 
takeoff run.
    The breaking the surface theory made sense, but it seemed to me 
that perhaps he might have been just warming up his engines, and made 
the loop around the lake just to make sure the engines were OK.  

>     It's been a few years since I landed a Grumman 
> Albatross but I instructed in the aircraft for all phases of it's operation, 
> land, sheltered water, open sea and snow and ice.

It was a nice looking plane, and amazing to see on a small pond.    
The pond it landed on, has a summer camp for music students, and 
apparently the pilot had landed there to come see his child in a 
parents concert or something.  He sure provided entertainment for 
everyone around the lake.  BTW, when I say "pond", I'm referring to a 
small lake, about a half mile long, and surrounded by hills.  Up 
here, any lake less than about a mile, is called a pond.  

Somewhat off topic, but when this Albatross landed, before it landed, 
it circled in the air several times in relatively small diameter 
circles. Someone told me that the circling was to determine what 
direction the wind was coming from, since there weren't any wind-
socks near the pond.  I don't know if that is true either, but it 
seemed logical.  He said that after making a few circles, you could 
approximate the wind by seeing how far you have drifted.  Does that 
make any sense?
 



 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 22 22:21:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:21:38 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Boom Town II
Message-ID: <3b.32459ef1.2b607372@aol.com>

Kevin,
     Yes maybe once If it was a big wave, it hit perpendicular to the wave 
and the part of the plane that hit first was at or near the center of gravity 
(That would be in front of the center of lift) If every thing was just right 
so this happened I think the next contact with the water would be nose first 
which would preclude any second bounce.
     In your first letter I got the impression that the ball turret hit the 
water and through the bird up  I would think the ball is so far behind the 
center of gravity on a B17 both the lift component and the drag component; of 
the ball hitting the water would tend to put the nose deeper into the water 
and preclude any bounce as the forward speed would mainly be gone due to the 
tremendous drag of the water.
     The story would have been more believable to me lf they had landed 
parallel with the waves, got out of the bird while it floated, took their 
pants off  and made a life jacket out of them, swam to shore and rented an 
outboard and came back and got their wounded crew members out and lived 
happily ever after.
     Best wishes,
         Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 23 15:44:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:44:02 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew questions
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB52@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list,
Couple of questions about ground crews:
1. Combat crews were rotated out after completing the required missions.
Were ground crew ever rotated back to the States or did they stay for the
duration?  
2. What were the duties of the armorer(sp)?
3. In my readings I have seen that one of the combat crewmen was assigned as
the crew armorer.  What was the reason for this?  What did he do differently
than the ground crew armourer?

Thanks.  And for those of us above the Mason-Dixon, bundle up, it's
C-C-C-COLD out there!

Dave  



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 23 17:56:34 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:56:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bombs
In-Reply-To: <196.145f30b8.2b5eec91@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030123175634.84705.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>

This morning while thumbing through one of Freeman's
books, he notes that 500 pound bombs were not always
500 pounds.  Sometimes they weighed a lot more or a
lot less, depending on how the bomb case was formed.

Do any of you know about this?  It would seem bombing
up would be much more difficult if the bomb shapes and
sizes were different.
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 00:54:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:54:21 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew questions
Message-ID: <125.1d3b36d9.2b61e8bd@aol.com>

Dave,
     There are exceptions to most every thing but, my observations, only.  
Ground crews were not generally rotated. They were there for the duration. 
Most all of them were very loyal and possessive of their bird and didn't want 
to turn it over to any of the ordinary mechanics that maintained the other 
planes. They worked most all night getting their bird repaired, loaded (fuel, 
oil, bombs & guns) for tomorrow's mission.  They worked in the rain, wind, 
snow, fog and cold usually on a ladder with a flashlight in their mouth. I 
suppose they slept after we took their bird and left but they were always out 
there waiting for us if and when we got back to see how many fans we had 
turning, how many holes we had and what was leaking out of it. They liked to 
help most of us get the engines started in the morning because most pilots 
were so dumb they flooded their engines before they got all 4 started. I 
salute them. we would never have won the war without their unbelievable skill 
and dedication
     The armorer was one of the aircrew members. Usually someone close to the 
Bombay like the waist gunner or ball turret. Maybe even the tail gunner.  
the bombardier was some distance from the Bombay. The armorer could be 
assigned by the bombardier to assist him and advise him of any problems in 
the Bombay, He could open and screw in the fuses, put in or take out the 
cotter pins therein, hook the safety wire to the plane and fuse propellers 
and if one hung up figure out why and what to do about it before he called 
the bombardier who usually called the copilot. I suppose the ground armorer 
was one of the ground crew and they got the bombs loaded, guns and ammunition 
aboard, and what ever else got dumped on them. 
            I hope some of the ground crews answer your questions. They would 
be more accurate as I am just telling you what I think I observed. They could 
tell you what they did.
     Stay Warm,
              Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 01:00:10 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:00:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew questions
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB52@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030124010010.21856.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

The bombardier was the plane's armament officer. He
had to know all types of bomfusesuzes, how to
inspfusefuze and load bombs, operation of bomb racks,
controls and what to do should they fail to work
properly. This was an important part of our training
in bombardier school.........Bill Runnels, bombardier
 


>  ?  
> 2. What were the duties of the armorer(sp)?
> 3. In my readings I have seen that one of the combat
> crewmen was assigned as
> the crew armorer.  What was the reason for this? 
> What did he do differently
> than the ground crew armourer?
> 
> Thanks.  And for those of us above the Mason-Dixon,
> bundle up, it's
> C-C-C-COLD out there!
> 
> Dave  
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 01:03:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:03:13 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Water Landings
Message-ID: <77.8019974.2b61ead1@aol.com>

What I think would make more sense. He was observing the waves on the surface 
of the water to see the direction and approximate speed of the wind. down 
there.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 01:10:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:10:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bombs
In-Reply-To: <20030123175634.84705.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030124011015.35603.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>

As far as I know the gross weight of the bomb remained
the same. The weight of the explosive changed. For
example, 80% of the total weight of a light case bomb
is explosive while only 15% of an armor-piercing bomb
is explosive. Armor-piercing bombs use only a tail
fuze and must be dropped from an altitude of at least
15,000 feet to be effective......Bill Runnels,
bombardier




--- Kevin Pearson  wrote:
> This morning while thumbing through one of Freeman's
> books, he notes that 500 pound bombs were not always
> 500 pounds.  Sometimes they weighed a lot more or a
> lot less, depending on how the bomb case was formed.
> 
> Do any of you know about this?  It would seem
> bombing
> up would be much more difficult if the bomb shapes
> and
> sizes were different.
> Kevin
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 01:26:25 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:26:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew questions
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB52@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030124012625.25312.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

 
Dave, let me try again. The bombardier was the plane's
armament officer. He had to know all types of bombs
and fuzes required, how to inspect, fuze and load
bombs, how to preflight and operate the bomb rack
controls and know what to do should they not work
properly. Sorry for the garbled message that preceeded
this one......Bill Runnels, bombardier   


> 2. What were the duties of the armorer(sp)?
> 3. In my readings I have seen that one of the combat
> crewmen was assigned as
> the crew armorer.  What was the reason for this? 
> What did he do differently
> than the ground crew armourer?
> 
> Thanks.  And for those of us above the Mason-Dixon,
> bundle up, it's
> C-C-C-COLD out there!
> 
> Dave  
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 17:20:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:20:59 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of cold.
Message-ID: <003401c2c3cc$f7416d00$43bcf5cd@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C2C39A.ABF78320
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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As I was taking my morning shower in a nice warm bathroom, my memory =
went back to the times I showeredwhile in the 360th.
The shower room was a good walk from the barracks and the water was =
usually cold. I recall going to the shower room in the wee hours just to =
get a warm shower,
The regular bldg for our ablutions was a bit different also. A long flat =
cement slab with spigots at intervals and only a cold water spigot if =
memory serves me. This bldg was much closer to the barracks.
No facilities within the barracks.  Brrrr.

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
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As I was taking my morning shower in a =
nice warm=20
bathroom, my memory went back to the times I showeredwhile in the=20
360th.


The shower room was a good walk from =
the=20
barracks and the water was usually cold. I recall going to the shower =
room in=20
the wee hours just to get a warm shower,


The regular bldg for our ablutions was =
a bit=20
different also. A long flat cement slab with spigots at intervals and =
only a=20
cold water spigot if memory serves me. This bldg was much closer to the=20
barracks.


No facilities within the =
barracks. =20
Brrrr.


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C2C39A.ABF78320--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 17:29:05 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:29:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Grand Slam/Tallboy
In-Reply-To: <20030124012625.25312.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030124172905.39682.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Did any of you witness the explosion or the aftermath
of a 12,000 pound Tallboy or a 22,000 pound Grand
Slam?  I believe they were introduced in early 1945.

Also, did any of you fly over the Mohne or Sorpe River
Dams after Guy Gibson's 617 Squadron destroyed them?  

1.  Was there considerable downstream damage in the
Rhur?
2.  In your opinion, why didn't the 8th target more
dams and hydro plants?  German industry ran on
electricity and the plants would seem to have been as
important as oil.

Thanks, fellas!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 19:49:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of cold.
In-Reply-To: <003401c2c3cc$f7416d00$43bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <20030124194953.13430.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>

I made the same trip in the wee hours for a warm
shower........Bill Runnels, 360th




--- Fory Barton  wrote:
> As I was taking my morning shower in a nice warm
> bathroom, my memory went back to the times I
> showeredwhile in the 360th.
> The shower room was a good walk from the barracks
> and the water was usually cold. I recall going to
> the shower room in the wee hours just to get a warm
> shower,
> 

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 20:21:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:21:23 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of cold.
In-Reply-To: <003401c2c3cc$f7416d00$43bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3126266483_5735613
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Yo, Fory...Ah, such memories is right!  I used to call the Ablutions a du=
ngeon
> with faucets.  It was sheer luck that you managed a trickle of warm water=
 only
> to have it turn frozen by someone up-line.  On one such occasion I let ou=
t a
> long cuss-phrase (you=B9re familiar with such things) and next thing I know=
 I=B9m
> confronted by U-No-Hu himself....=B2Sorry, Sir, mumble,mumble=B2 that=B9s the e=
nd of
> that shower!  I believe Roger K.=B9s bunk was just inside the door and next=
 to
> his was Syd Kallet=B9s. I was down at the other end with Fink, Reeves and
> Subkowsky.  Good health, good weather to you....Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombard=
ier,
> Fink=B9s Crew.



--B_3126266483_5735613
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of cold.



Yo, Fory...Ah, such memories is right! &nb=
sp;I used to call the Ablutions a dungeon with faucets.  It was sheer l=
uck that you managed a trickle of warm water only to have it turn frozen by =
someone up-line.  On one such occasion I let out a long cuss-phrase (yo=
u’re familiar with such things) and next thing I know I’m confro=
nted by U-No-Hu himself....”Sorry, Sir, mumble,mumble” that̵=
7;s the end of that shower!  I believe Roger K.’s bunk was just i=
nside the door and next to his was Syd Kallet’s. I was down at the oth=
er end with Fink, Reeves and Subkowsky.  Good health, good weather to y=
ou....Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombardier, Fink’s Crew.









--B_3126266483_5735613--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 22:24:44 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:24:44 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of cold.
Message-ID: <119.1e1ee0e0.2b63172c@aol.com>


ya'll, i could not keep those pull string showers running long enough to wash 
off soap on body.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 24 23:49:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:49:04 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew questions
References: <125.1d3b36d9.2b61e8bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c2c403$2d90b740$6501a8c0@desktop1>

I can validate that my father, being assigned ground crew was not rotated
out and was at Molesworth for about 2 years and then was sent on to
Casablanca.



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 25 01:43:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:43:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cold Showers
Message-ID: <161.1ab6378f.2b6345dc@aol.com>

 Hi Gang,
     Our shower was so cold, I was in England nearly a year and never took a 
shower. I am a sissy.
       Best Wishes,
            Stinkie (Also known as Stinky by my friends?)  
      P.S. All my friends get VA disability. They have smelling gland burnout 
in both nostrils. I had a pet skunk for while I don't know what happened but 
she pulled up and left me. I never knew why. I tried to be good to her and 
hold her in my lap and pet her but she wouldn't stay there. I guess maybe she 
was bashful.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Jan 25 02:13:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:13:38 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cold Showers
Message-ID: <4f.2a3ae6ac.2b634cd2@aol.com>


sho nuff


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Jan 28 19:27:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tom Beard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:27:20 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows
Message-ID: <000501c2c703$473b67a0$460c6ed8@webshark.com>

Hello again, and thank you for responding to my questions about waist
gunners.  Of course I have another question for Y'all....

I am building a model of my dads B-17, and wonder if they had windows at the
waist gun spot. My model has them, but I have seen some B-17s without the
windows.
His B-17 was not painted as it was late in the war.Were there any other
significant differences between early and later models? Thanks again




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 01:00:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:00:27 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows
Message-ID: <14a.1afccb14.2b6881ab@aol.com>

Dave,
     If your model has NO dorsal fin in front of the vertical tail it is 
probably a model of an earlier model than your Fathers plane.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 00:54:32 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:54:32 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows
Message-ID: <12e.217f516d.2b688048@aol.com>

Tom Beard,
     Congratulation for building a model of your fathers B17.  If it was late 
in the war it was probably a G model. The G models had a chin turret right 
under the nose. It had 2 guns sticking out side by side and parallel with 
each other. Some of the late F models also had a chin turret. Both of these 
models had windows for the Waist gunners. As the production of B17s 
progressed they changed the design and position of the waist windows a few 
times but I think if you ever see a B17 with no waist windows it has probably 
been modified after it was manufactured. Late in the war many of them were 
not painted.
     Best Wishes Tom,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 04:22:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:22:57 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows
References: <000501c2c703$473b67a0$460c6ed8@webshark.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2c74e$1a0f9300$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Roger Freeman writes , -pg157, THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR MANUAL
"Other significant changes in production of the B-17G were the enclosing of
the waist gun positions to shield giunners from the icy air blast, and
staggering their relative positions to give each gunner more room"---
"Douglas buildt B-17Gs  with these changes began to be received in March
1944"
I believe I read somewhere that some windows had been added in the field
before those arrived from the factory. If you have the CD rom you could
check the mission list for your father, find the crew  and plane he was with
for each mission--the plane id number would include  the date of manufactor.
LeRoy Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beard" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows


> Hello again, and thank you for responding to my questions about waist
> gunners.  Of course I have another question for Y'all....
>
> I am building a model of my dads B-17, and wonder if they had windows at
the
> waist gun spot. My model has them, but I have seen some B-17s without the
> windows.
> His B-17 was not painted as it was late in the war.Were there any other
> significant differences between early and later models? Thanks again
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 04:30:57 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:30:57 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bring back the past.
Message-ID: <1c4.42b51bb.2b68b301@aol.com>

I was just thinking, If I could bring back the past so fast I couldn't get it 
stopped when it got here, it would move into the future, then I would know 
what was going to happen. Good Grief, Good Night. Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 13:23:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:23:26 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows
In-Reply-To: <12e.217f516d.2b688048@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

> Tom Beard,
>    Congratulation for building a model of your fathers B17.  If it was late
> in the war it was probably a G model. The G models had a chin turret right
> under the nose. It had 2 guns sticking out side by side and parallel with
> each other. Some of the late F models also had a chin turret. Both of these
> models had windows for the Waist gunners. As the production of B17s
> progressed they changed the design and position of the waist windows a few
> times but I think if you ever see a B17 with no waist windows it has probably
> been modified after it was manufactured. Late in the war many of them were
> not painted.
>    Best Wishes Tom,
>          Jack
> 
Hi Tom..Hi Jack...there is a model airplane supply house that has a
phenomenal stock of model aircraft at   Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 19:27:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:27:53 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #828 - 6 msgs
Message-ID: <14b.1b05a2ae.2b698539@aol.com>

--part1_14b.1b05a2ae.2b698539_boundary
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Bob, squadron also sponsers hyperscale.com which is an online modeler's 
magazine out of Australia as are many of it's modeler-contributors.These guys 
are superb craftsmen. Go to the "gallery" section to see what they're doing.  


--part1_14b.1b05a2ae.2b698539_boundary
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Bob, squadron also sponsers hyperscale.com which is an online modeler's magazine out of Australia as are many of it's modeler-contributors.These guys are superb craftsmen. Go to the "gallery" section to see what they're doing.  

--part1_14b.1b05a2ae.2b698539_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 20:54:35 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:54:35 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 models
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB71@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C7D8.A121B780
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi list,
Anyone out there know if you can get a model (B17) built and painted to your
own specs?  If yes, where or who?
Thanks! 
Dave
 
 

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Hi list,



A=
nyone out
there know if you can get a model (B17) built and painted to your own =
specs?  If yes, where or =
who?



T=
hanks! 



D=
ave



<=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> 
=



 









------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C7D8.A121B780--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Jan 29 22:27:33 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:27:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 models Painted to Specs
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB71@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030129222733.44072.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  I've seen B-17 models that would be painted to
spec in the backs of aviation magazines.  I think
these are wooden models and the Plexiglas always
looked a little to fake for the price.  Go to a
bookstore and start thumbing.

As long as we are on models - does anyone know where I
could buy a BIG model of a 17?  Something with a
wingspan of six feet or more?  
Cheers
Kevin

--- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> Hi list,
> Anyone out there know if you can get a model (B17)
> built and painted to your
> own specs?  If yes, where or who?
> Thanks! 
> Dave
>  
>  
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 30 02:35:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fred Preller)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:35:04 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd BG CallsignsI
Message-ID: <3E388F58.2090609@preller.us>

I have the squadron RT callsigns, but I need the 303rd BG and 41st CBW callsigns 
for my website http://Mighty8thAF.Preller.US/ - can anyone out there help?

Please reply directly by email, and "Keep the Show on the Road!"
f3
-- 
Fred Preller
Rockwall, Texas



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 30 14:10:27 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:10:27 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Hyperscale
In-Reply-To: <14b.1b05a2ae.2b698539@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3126762627_25040103
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> Bob, squadron also sponsers hyperscale.com which is an online modeler's
> magazine out of Australia as are many of it's modeler-contributors.These guys
> are superb craftsmen. Go to the "gallery" section to see what they're doing.
Many thanks for that info....all the detail you could possibly want!  Best
wishes and Cheers,  Bob Hand


--B_3126762627_25040103
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Re: Hyperscale



Bob, squadron also spon=
sers hyperscale.com which is an online modeler's magazine out of Australia a=
s are many of it's modeler-contributors.These guys are superb craftsmen. Go =
to the "gallery" section to see what they're doing.  


Many thanks for that info..=
..all the detail you could possibly want!  Best wishes and Cheers, &nbs=
p;Bob Hand






--B_3126762627_25040103--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 30 17:52:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:52:45 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Model
Message-ID: <002401c2c888$66c9bdc0$eb93bbd0@cts>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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 Hi:
 I am curently building the Guilows kit of the Thunderbird , it will be =
a flying model electric powered with four motors. I have been building =
and flying Radio Controled models for over fifty years.=20
 Joe Bashar who was a 303rd veteran built the B17 back in New Jersey and =
sent me the info on it his e-mail is
joebeshar@juno.com ,he is an avid modeler and has built several B17's
Good Luck
  Spider Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2C845.56F9B820
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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 Hi:


 I am curently building the =
Guilows kit of the=20
Thunderbird , it will be a flying model electric powered with four =
motors. I=20
have been building and flying Radio Controled models for over fifty =
years.=20



 Joe Bashar who was a 303rd =
veteran built=20
the B17 back in New Jersey and sent me the info on it his e-mail =
is


joebeshar@juno.com ,he is an =
avid=20
modeler and has built several B17's


Good Luck


  Spider =
Smith


------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C2C845.56F9B820--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 30 19:01:50 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:01:50 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #829 - 5 msgs
Message-ID: <168.19f257f5.2b6ad09e@aol.com>

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Kevin,to all of us who love aviation in general and the B17 in 
particular,your question of a Big model sent me hunting.Go to 
www.rcwarbirds.com -------" Bombers", for some of the most beautiful big 
models(including one by John Kang with 303rd markings),and one with an 18ft 
wingspan.       Cheers,Jack Amram

--part1_168.19f257f5.2b6ad09e_boundary
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Kevin,to all of us who love aviation in general and the B17 in particular,your question of a Big model sent me hunting.Go to www.rcwarbirds.com -------" Bombers", for some of the most beautiful big models(including one by John Kang with 303rd markings),and one with an 18ft wingspan.       Cheers,Jack Amram

--part1_168.19f257f5.2b6ad09e_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Jan 30 20:15:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:15:21 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Model
Message-ID: <1ac.fcb39d3.2b6ae1d9@aol.com>


spider , does it fly on a tether or free fly as you control ,such as combat 
plane procedures i see on news.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 31 00:47:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:47:06 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Model
In-Reply-To: <002401c2c888$66c9bdc0$eb93bbd0@cts>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3126800827_27300373
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> Hi Spider and All:  When I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 39=
1st
> Bomb Group  Restaurant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport an=
d the
> owner had on display three models at full size (or very close), a  P-51. =
F4U
> and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk about expensive mode=
ls
> that don=B9t fly!  I believe the P-51 and the
> F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I did som=
e
> research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with infol   Th=
anks
> for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand
>=20
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--B_3126800827_27300373
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Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Model



Hi Spider and All:  When=
 I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 391st Bomb Group  Restau=
rant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport and the owner=
 had on display three models at full size (or very close), a  P-51. F4U=
 and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk about expens=
ive models that don’t fly!  I believe the P-51 and the 

F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I=
 did some research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with inf=
ol   Thanks for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand









































































--B_3126800827_27300373--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 31 01:48:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:48:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030131014801.92405.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

What are your favorite books on the Eighth Air Force? 
We all know about all of Freeman's books.  What are
some obscure good books us younger lads may not of
heard of before? 

My all time favorite is Bert Stiles "Seranade to the
Big Bird."
Blue Skies
Kevin


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 31 04:11:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Walling)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:11:49 -1000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force
In-Reply-To: <20030131014801.92405.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030130181149.008d14e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>

"One Last Look", by Philip Kaplan and Rex Alan Smith.

Jim Walling


At 05:48 PM 1/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
>What are your favorite books on the Eighth Air Force? 
>We all know about all of Freeman's books.  What are
>some obscure good books us younger lads may not of
>heard of before? 
>
>My all time favorite is Bert Stiles "Seranade to the
>Big Bird."
>Blue Skies
>Kevin
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Jan 31 14:01:30 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:01:30 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force
In-Reply-To: <20030131014801.92405.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Akin to "One Last Look" is "Round the Clock" (Kaplan Currie) and of course
that stirring little volume "Last Raid".  (Oops!)