From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 01:22:20 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Model Message-ID: <00dc01c2c990$5f4312a0$a9bbbad0@cts> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IBSPEC whoever you are .The B17 Model Will be aradio Controlled and will = fly well as all my models do. Se Hemet Model Masters Web Site at www.netzon.net/~spider/ You will enjoy the pictures of some fabulous models on this site Spider ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IBSPEC whoever you are .The B17 Model = Will be=20 aradio Controlled and will fly well as all my models do. Se Hemet Model = Masters=20 Web Site at
www.netzon.net/~spider/
 You will enjoy the pictures of = some fabulous=20 models on this site
 
    =20 Spider
------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C2C94D.4FA6EE40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 03:21:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John I. Jenkins) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:21:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Source of B-17 information References: Message-ID: <002c01c2c9a1$26658420$e40ea641@j3367> There is a great deal of information about individual B-17s to be found in a softbound British 1998 publication "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story" by Roger A. Freeman with David Osborne (ISBN 1 85409 522 6). In addition to an abbreviated history of each airplane manufactured, there is a compilation of the manufacturing sequence that shows at what point in the stream of aircraft produced the many and various changes to the design were made. Also, there is a narrative history of the several models of the B-17 accompanied by lots of photographs and explanatory data. Incidentally, I believe the first number in the tail number sequence (sometimes shown in print as two numbers) is actually the last digit (or the last two digits) of the fiscal year in which a particular contract was let for the manufacture of one or more airplanes. At the time the B-17 was being produced the government's fiscal year was probably from July 1 through June 30 of the following calendar year. John I. Jenkins From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 03:36:40 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:36:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? Message-ID: <175.15a41e7a.2b6c9ac8@aol.com> Hi Gang I may never send this. A few days ago I taught? about 18 young men taking a class in heavy duty Mechanics in the vocational department at Boise State University They had great big trucks and diesel engines apart all over the place. My class was on internal combustion and jet engines and lasted from 9 am until noon. I still had stitches from surgery and didn't know if I could stand up for 3 hours but I did with no problem. They were all men from about 19 to 24 and were all sharp, intelligent, clean cut decent, short haired, no earrings type fellows I would not have minded my daughter dating if I had one. They reminded me very much of the type we were when we were in training to become aircrews and mechanics. As a result of that class I was asked to be interviewed by one of the teachers who was writing an article. I told him sure. That questions didn't bother me it was to answers that got me in trouble. One of the first questions he asked me. Leaving out your family tell me about your very closest friend. I thought about in a bit and Said Gee that is a tough one already I would have to think about that a little. All right, he said, tell my just a little about your 5 or 6 best friends. I did. He said "They are all female, don't you have any close male friends? Oh yes I said. Well, tell me about them. I did. It was very enlightening to me. I had never realized this before. Two were ex ground crew. Two were gunners. One was a Bombardier, One was a Navigator About 6 were pilots. Three lived in my hut with me One was on our original crew. Two were not even in the 303ed B. G. I met them at our reunions and/or on this e-mail. I DO NOT HAVE ONE CLOSE MALE FRIEND THAT LIVES IN BOISE. If I had been assigned to the 279th or 384th where I know no one I would have absolutely NO male best friend. If I had been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit the sack very depressed tonight instead of elated like I am now. Good night and thank you all... Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 04:46:39 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:46:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? References: <175.15a41e7a.2b6c9ac8@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c2c9ac$e9570f70$cf91c8cf@altonmain> 'Lo, Jack. I am not trying to hang on your coat tails when I write this, because you have really written a poignant and telling message. I did want to relate some things that my late Dad told me about his friends. He said he never had better friends than when he was in the Army. He spent a year in the Royal Canadian Engineers, before volunteering with the USAAF, which was in the "Army" again, of course. He used to tell me of people he met here and there. I am afraid I forgot most of the names, but he did too, in later years. I think the memories he had were of the times, which he said he would never trade for anything. I know a few of the names.....Charlie Allshouse, who he used to go AWOL with under the fence after missions. They would head to the closest bar, sometimes a bit of a hike, and then sneak back in the same way. They used to call it the Burma Trail, after their brothers in Asia, flying over the "Hump". He told me they got caught a few times, and did KP. They didn't have potato peelers, just paring knives. Dad said they weren't too careful, and ended up with plenty of nicks. He said it got so they would start cutting the spuds into little squares, with no peel. A lot easier then peeling. His navigator was killed on the day he got shot down. Two others, Don Irons WG, got shot through both legs. The radio man got shot in the head. Both of them were repatriated. He met Don Irons years later at POW reunions. Dad was the TG, and received a few splinters from shrapnel. He was the last to bail out, and manned his guns until there was no ammo left. He did the best he could in a difficult situation and will be my hero until the day I die. I try and pass the empathy and emotion I feel for my father on to my kids. I will do it with my little granddaughter, too. Most of the good men he befriended were in prison camp. After all, he spent about 20 months with them, instead of a few months with his overseas crew. Most of the crews he came over with were killed or imprisoned. He was in the air in the summer and fall of '43, and chances were not very good. Most of the men are gone now, and many more died in action. Charlie Allshouse got his head shot off over Germany. Almost all the others he used to go to Royston, Bedford, Luton, Cambridge, and other little villages around East Anglia, died in the war. The rest have since passed away, including my father. So, Jack, when you say that the best friends you ever had just aren't here anymore, I understand. My father gave that to me. My heart is with you, but please know that you will always have a friend of every person who reads this list. Especially those that understand like I do. I love and respect all you have done, my friend. You are part of all of our memories, and bring them home to us every time you write. Please don't ever give it up, until you just can't do it anymore. I can say that about all of you vets who take part in this talk list. We owe you everything, and you give back to us sons just about everything that matters. Gordy "tailgunnerson" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: ; ; ; ; Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who did I miss in the 279th & 384th? > Hi Gang > I may never send this. A few days ago I taught? about 18 young men > taking a class in heavy duty Mechanics in the vocational department at Boise > State University They had great big trucks and diesel engines apart all over > the place. My class was on internal combustion and jet engines and lasted > from 9 am until noon. I still had stitches from surgery and didn't know if I > could stand up for 3 hours but I did with no problem. They were all men from > about 19 to 24 and were all sharp, intelligent, clean cut decent, short > haired, no earrings type fellows I would not have minded my daughter dating > if I had one. They reminded me very much of the type we were when we were in > training to become aircrews and mechanics. As a result of that class I was > asked to be interviewed by one of the teachers who was writing an article. I > told him sure. That questions didn't bother me it was to answers that got me > in trouble. > One of the first questions he asked me. Leaving out your family tell me > about your very closest friend. I thought about in a bit and Said Gee that > is a tough one already I would have to think about that a little. All right, > he said, tell my just a little about your 5 or 6 best friends. I did. He said > "They are all female, don't you have any close male friends? Oh yes I said. > Well, tell me about them. I did. It was very enlightening to me. I had never > realized this before. Two were ex ground crew. Two were gunners. One was a > Bombardier, One was a Navigator About 6 were pilots. Three lived in my hut > with me One was on our original crew. Two were not even in the 303ed B. G. I > met them at our reunions and/or on this e-mail. I DO NOT HAVE ONE CLOSE MALE > FRIEND THAT LIVES IN BOISE. If I had been assigned to the 279th or 384th > where I know no one I would have absolutely NO male best friend. If I had > been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit the sack > very depressed tonight instead of elated like I am now. Good night and thank > you all... > Best Wishes, > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 1 05:15:30 2003 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 00:15:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Model Message-ID: <14a.1b24ed5a.2b6cb1f2@aol.com> 
thought you was our recent 303rd prez from md.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 09:54:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 04:54:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two Ways to Know?
Message-ID: <29.379db82d.2b6cf370@aol.com>

 Friend Gordy (Tailgunnerson)
     I have learned there are two ways to really get to know someone. I mean 
really KNOW them. Fight a war with them or marry them. You have every right 
to be very proud of you great Father. I wish I had known him. Thank you for 
your reply. I debated with my self about sending that letter. I do remember 
the names, but decided to leave them out.
     Best Wishes,
           Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 18:15:17 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:15:17 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Friends
References: <20030201170236.1C6CA536EB@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c2ca1d$e0badc40$16960243@default>

Gordy , I think the point of Jacks' letter came right at the end....
At least that is the way I read it.

 if I had been assigned to other than the 303rd BG I would be going to hit
the sack
 very depressed tonight      instead of elated like I am now.     Good night
and
thank
 you all...
         Best Wishes,
              Jack



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 21:24:41 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 16:24:41 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
Message-ID: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>

As with many of you, I'm sure, I changed my plans for today and spent the 
last few hours glued to the TV watching over and over our space ship tearing 
apart as it was streaking to earth. I felt and will feel the deepest heart 
felt sympathy for the seven souls aboard and will continue my sadness and 
sympathy for them, their families and loved ones for so long as I shall live. 
 
     Next I'm sure will come program after program, day after day when 
aeronautically ignorant radio and TV commentators will ask stupid questions 
to equally ignorant stupid politicians and retired self anointed military 
specialists to speculate on what happened. Then comment and argue with their 
opinions of terrorists or rockets or bombs, our secret missiles that went 
astray or structural failures, to high, to low, to fast, to slow, The 
democrats vote in congress, The republicans vote in congress, a meteorite, 
sun spots, radiation, and even so & so did it to get elected next fall. 
     I am somewhat ashamed of myself to put it in prospective.  We lost one 
old plane and seven well trained, intelligent, talented people.  During our 
war we were very happy and felt blessed if we only lost one airplane today 
even though it had nine or ten well trained, intelligent, talented people 
aboard. And yesterday and/or tomorrow it might be seven planes with 9 or 10 
well trained, intelligent, talented people aboard each one or a whole 
Squadron and we were just one Bomb Group out of the many that flew yesterday 
today and tomorrow.
      When mankind explored the sea we lost many.  As we entered into the air 
we lost many. As we enter into space we shall lose many.  And someday our own 
weapons, or disease, or a meteorite, or radiation, a visiting planet, a 
cooling or exploding sun or??? will wipe us all out. So hang in there.
     Keep the faith,
           Jack Rencher
.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 17:03:26 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:03:26 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Such deprivation!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3127032207_9875054
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>> Hi Spider and All:  When I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 3=
91st
>> Bomb Group  Restaurant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport a=
nd
>> the owner had on display three models at full size (or very close), a  P=
-51.
>> F4U and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk about expensive
>> models that don=B9t fly!  I believe the P-51 and the
>> F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I did so=
me
>> research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with infol   T=
hanks
>> for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> A neglected child indeed, but mainly because most of the toys kids bang
>> around with today wereen=B9t invented when I stumbled through childhood.  =
Ah,
>> but last night=B9s trip to TOYS-R-US was a revelation!  Strolling through =
the
>> aisle I discovered three massive plastic semi-assembled models of a P-38=
 and
>> a Stuka and an F4-U Corsair, with wingspans about  24=B2 and superdailed a=
t
>> that.   They sell for $44 - $48  and have additional props and figures
>> included.  Not that the on-line stuff wasn=B9t fantastic, it surely
>> was.....neglected to get the mfg. Name, but I=B9ll scout around.  Still wo=
nder
>> how come they chose the Stuka....do kids remember  that  ugly thing?
>> Cheers, Bob Hand
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20



--B_3127032207_9875054
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Re: Such deprivation!



Hi Spider and All=
:  When I lived in FL I did considerable work for the 391st Bomb Group =
 Restaurant / Cabaret  at  Palm Beach International airport a=
nd the owner had on display three models at full size (or very close), a &nb=
sp;P-51. F4U and a  P-47 at a cost of approx. $20,000 each.  Talk =
about expensive models that don’t fly!  I believe the P-51 and th=
e 

F109 at  Savannah are fakes from the same California supplier.  I=
 did some research on a couple of scale WWII models and was swamped with inf=
ol   Thanks for the facts!  Cheers, Bob Hand







































A neglected child indeed, but mainly because most of the toys kids bang aro=
und with today wereen’t invented when I stumbled through childhood. &n=
bsp;Ah, but last night’s trip to TOYS-R-US was a revelation!  Str=
olling through the aisle I discovered three massive plastic semi-assembled m=
odels of a P-38 and a Stuka and an F4-U Corsair, with wingspans about  =
24” and superdailed at that.   They sell for $44 - $48  =
;and have additional props and figures included.  Not that the on-line =
stuff wasn’t fantastic, it surely was.....neglected to get the mfg. Na=
me, but I’ll scout around.  Still wonder how come they chose the =
Stuka....do kids remember  that  ugly thing?    Che=
ers, Bob Hand






































--B_3127032207_9875054--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 00:38:19 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:38:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1e8.cdb5c3.2b6f13fb@aol.com>

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          Jack

    I just read your thoughts about the loss of the space ship.  These are my 
thoughts to the word.  AMEN and thanks to you.    My brother Leslie 
Schweinebraten was lost on what was to be his last mission on May 24 1944.. 
He was a good man too. I continue to thank all veterans and those who have 
given  their life for our country.
                                                            
George Schweinebraten

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          Jack



    I just read your thoughts about the loss of the space ship.  These are my thoughts to the word.  AMEN and thanks to you.    My brother Leslie Schweinebraten was lost on what was to be his last mission on May 24 1944.. He was a good man too. I continue to thank all veterans and those who have given  their life for our country.

                                                            

George Schweinebraten

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 19:07:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:07:49 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <19d.104e0899.2b6ec685@aol.com>

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Well said Jack. GOD is still in control. Our prayers go to the familes of the 
of the lost hero's.

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Well said Jack. GOD is still in control. Our prayers go to the familes of the of the lost hero's.

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  2 17:05:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:05:28 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
References: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c2cadd$49446f00$6401a8c0@none>

 I once attended a talk given by Kris Kraft, who was the Director of Flight
Operations for the Apollo program. He referred to his team as Steely-Eyed
Missle-men...who knew the incredible systems complexity and physics involved
in space flight presented very real risks, not the video game commonly
portrayed by hollywood.

Columbia was making Shuttle flight 113, and was on its 28th launch. It
boggles the mind that any craft of this complexity can survive the "Light
fuse and get away" solid rocket launches ( 8 minutes to 17,000 miles per
hour) and the > *Mach 18* re-entry speeds once, never mind 28 times. There
was a failure, and NASA will trace the roots and learn from it.





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 01:57:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:57:11 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1d0.173c7db.2b6f2677@aol.com>

George,
     Thanks for your kind words. I'm very sorry about your Brother. You can 
be very proud of him. I suppose every one sweated out their last mission. I 
did even though it turned out to be a milk run. 
Happy Sunday night,  Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 01:57:11 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:57:11 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #832 - 2 msgs
Message-ID: <1d0.173c7db.2b6f2677@aol.com>

George,
     Thanks for your kind words. I'm very sorry about your Brother. You can 
be very proud of him. I suppose every one sweated out their last mission. I 
did even though it turned out to be a milk run. 
Happy Sunday night,  Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  1 23:32:10 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 17:32:10 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force
Message-ID: 




Don't know how many of you have run across this one, but it is invaluable. "Yanks Over Europe - American Flyers in World War II," by Jerome Klinkowitz was published in 1996. He discusses the subject by reviewing all of the other books we are familiar with, sort of a survey of the books on USAAF in Europe in WWII. An superb overview of the literature covering 8AF (and the others in theater).


Also, I am eagerly awaiting others coming out on the 303rd. I know books by Lew Lyle, Hal Susskind, and Ken Clark are expected. Any more from our Hell's Angels subscribers?


Brian S. McGuire








>From: Kevin Pearson 

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Favorite Book(s) on the 8th Air Force 

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:48:01 -0800 (PST) 

> 

>What are your favorite books on the Eighth Air Force? 

>We all know about all of Freeman's books. What are 

>some obscure good books us younger lads may not of 

>heard of before? 

> 

>My all time favorite is Bert Stiles "Seranade to the 

>Big Bird." 

>Blue Skies 

>Kevin 

> 

> 

>__________________________________________________ 

>Do you Yahoo!? 

>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. 

>http://mailplus.yahoo.com 


Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb  3 13:53:14 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:53:14 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
In-Reply-To: <16f.1a0bfb3b.2b6d9519@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>So well stated, Jack, and what we've come to expect.  We all  echo your words
of sympathy and comfort to the survivors. It's a shame that the symbol of this
expedition must be the scorched and twisted helmet instead of the "high five" of
accomplishment...but everything has its price.  Most of the reporting from first
sighting has been pure conjecture stooping to provocative invasion of privacy...
enough to make you sick.
On another subject, congrats to0 all who returned safely from the 3 Feb.'45
mission to Berlin, #35 for Fink's Crew....58 years ago...WOW 111 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 03:56:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:56:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup
References: 
Message-ID: <002201c2cc01$6b4039c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Yes, Bob, I remember that Feb. 3rd '45 mission to Berlin there were alot of
planes in the air that morning and as I recall we could see numbers of them
streaming  toward the coast before we fell into position in the armada. My
granddaughter'sbiday is Feb 3rd so I doubly remmeber the date. Do you
remeber that Fink's crew flying in plane #517 (you'll know the name) flew
with the 359th in Group B, the low squadron. I was flying deputy lead
navigator in #619 with my pilot Owen Knutzen and most of our original crew.
It was my 14th mission.
Did you know Ted Mistal, bombadier, in the 360th. Toward the end of my tour
I flew one mission with him?
LeRoy Christenson, Navigator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hand" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Columbia Breakup


> >So well stated, Jack, and what we've come to expect.  We all  echo your
words
> of sympathy and comfort to the survivors. It's a shame that the symbol of
this
> expedition must be the scorched and twisted helmet instead of the "high
five" of
> accomplishment...but everything has its price.  Most of the reporting from
first
> sighting has been pure conjecture stooping to provocative invasion of
privacy...
> enough to make you sick.
> On another subject, congrats to0 all who returned safely from the 3
Feb.'45
> mission to Berlin, #35 for Fink's Crew....58 years ago...WOW 111
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 18:49:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:49:04 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]3 Feb.'45 Berlin Express
In-Reply-To: <002201c2cc01$6b4039c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: 

> Hello LeRoy...great to hear from you.  58 years is a bit of a stretch, to be
sure...but memory serves well back to that time and place.  Yes, we were flying
in 46517 F-PU, the bird that had brought us back 27 times.  Threatened several
times to go out and paint the nose "Scotch & Sofa" but never got around to it. I
painted a lot of jackets, did a lot of drawing and took a bunch of photos, a lot
of which are in the book "Last Raid" (shameless plug!)  And of course the whole
Columbia disaster is so very sad....that the twisted, burnt helmet had to be a
memento of the flight rather than a round of high-fives is most disappointing.
Trust you and your family are well....Best and Cheers, Bob Hand
> 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 22:11:48 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:11:48 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #834 - 1 msg
Message-ID: 

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I send a well done and GODs blessings to all the Chaplins that prayed for all 
of us during the many missions of the 303rd.  The comfort that they were 
covering us and open to hear us and talk to us very special. Thank you.
Bob Morris

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I send a well done and GODs blessings to all the Chapl=
ins that prayed for all of us during the many missions of the 303rd.  T=
he comfort that they were covering us and open to hear us and talk to us ver=
y special. Thank you.

Bob Morris

--part1_f.91385a4.2b7194a4_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Feb  4 21:11:18 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:11:18 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Columbia
Message-ID: <000c01c2cc91$f849b720$6d68db40@billowen>

Friends,

On Saturday morning my wife and I were eating breakfast when we heard this
terrific boom. It sounded like a sonic boom only much louder than any I have
ever heard. It rumbled for several seconds and very gradually went away. The
house shook and everything in the house rattled, much like I would think
would happen during an earthquake. I thought there had been an explosion
somewhere near my house. I stepped out onto the patio to look around
thinking I might see a column of smoke rising from somewhere here in Tyler.
Didn't see anything until I looked up to the south. There was a large streak
and several smaller streaks of what looked to be white smoke moving from NW
to SE across a very clear blue sky. I didn't think much about that ... just
a vapor trail ... but was puzzled as to why there would be several trails
instead of just one. I did not realize what I had seen until about 30
minutes later when I turned on the TV and learned what had happened.

>From what I have read in the papers, most of the debris field is
concentrated along a line from Nacogdoches to Hemphill. This would place
Columbia's flight path about 30 miles south of Tyler and traveling NW to SE.
Some debris was found locally but most is farther to the SE of here in the
Nacogdoches - Hemphill areas. What I'm wondering is this: Nacogdoches is
about 64 air miles SE of Tyler. So if large pieces of debris fell to the
ground there would Columbia have been high enough when it passed Tyler to
have been leaving vapor trails or would what I saw have been smoke. I'm
thinking it was probably vapor trails and it descended rapidly enough to
come to earth only 64 miles away. This morning's paper said the nose cone
was found near Hemphill which is approximately 112 air miles SE of here.

I am thankful that no one on the ground was injured although I have seen on
TV that there were several close calls. They have shown people standing
beside fairly large objects that missed them by only a few feet. One
fisherman said something fell in the water so close to his boat that it
splashed water on him. No, Jack, it probably wasn't a big bass even though
we have plenty of them here in east Texas.

Bill Owen
Tyler, Texas






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 00:48:55 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:48:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd Radio Callsigns
Message-ID: <20030205004855.49687.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-177291467-1044406135=:49523
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


To Fred and all .... better late than never!
303rd BG Radio Callsigns.
41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day COWBOY.
303rd Spring 1944 till VE day
358BS= WHIPCREAM  
359BS= EAVESDROP 
360BS= TOYDOLL 
427BS= NEWROW
Todd- (303rd BGA A637)

Original message Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:35:04 -0600
From: Fred Preller 
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd BG CallsignsI
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I have the squadron RT callsigns, but I need the 303rd BG and 41st CBW callsigns 
for my website http://Mighty8thAF.Preller.US/ - can anyone out there help?

Please reply directly by email, and "Keep the Show on the Road!"
f3
-- 
Fred Preller
Rockwall, Texas






---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
--0-177291467-1044406135=:49523
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


To Fred and all .... better late than never!

303rd BG Radio Callsigns.

41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day COWBOY.

303rd Spring 1944 till VE day

358BS= WHIPCREAM  

359BS= EAVESDROP 

360BS= TOYDOLL 

427BS= NEWROW

Todd- (303rd BGA A637)


Original message Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:35:04 -0600
From: Fred Preller 
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd BG CallsignsI
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I have the squadron RT callsigns, but I need the 303rd BG and 41st CBW callsigns 
for my website http://Mighty8thAF.Preller.US/ - can anyone out there help?

Please reply directly by email, and "Keep the Show on the Road!"
f3
-- 
Fred Preller
Rockwall, Texas



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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 17:14:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:14:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
Message-ID: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>

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For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what I used =
to send reports back to England,

7MT=20

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
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For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, =
dah dah=20
dah, dah was what I used to send reports back to England,


 


7MT 


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 18:07:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:07:38 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
In-Reply-To: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <3E40F07A.28275.BE6F4A@localhost>

> For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what
> I used to send reports back to England,
> 
> 7MT 

Fory,
I think you put an extra "dah" in your M.  :-)
Can you tell us more about sending reports to England?

Thanks!
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 21:46:04 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:46:04 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
References: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <009101c2cd5f$fd075aa0$6700a8c0@Home>

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Fory - I read the messages posted here daily with great interest and =
pleasure.
I'm the son of Ernest Holtorf, who as it turned out flew three missions =
as CP with your crew (Kuykendall). These were mission no.s: 325 - =
Leipzig, 332 - Essen, and 333 - Schwerte.
332 & 333 were his 29th, 30th and last missions.
He was a tall blond man, do you have any photos or recollections you are =
willing to share?
I'm sorting through my Dad's scrapbook and if I can identify any photos =
I may have of your ship or crew I'll be sure and forward them to you.
Thanks to you and all of the other men of the 303rd for your courage, =
sacrifice and service.
Best regards, Gary Holtorf

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Fory - I read the messages posted here =
daily=20
with great interest and pleasure.


I'm the son of Ernest Holtorf, who as =
it turned=20
out flew three missions as CP with your crew (Kuykendall). These were =
mission=20
no.s: 325 - Leipzig, 332 - Essen, and 333 - Schwerte.


332 & 333 were his 29th, 30th =
and last=20
missions.


He was a tall blond man, do you have =
any photos=20
or recollections you are willing to share?


I'm sorting through my Dad's scrapbook =
and if I=20
can identify any photos I may have of your ship or crew I'll be =
sure and=20
forward them to you.


Thanks to you and all of the other men =
of the=20
303rd for your courage, sacrifice and service.


Best regards, Gary =
Holtorf


 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Feb  5 19:41:15 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:41:15 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] call signs
In-Reply-To: <3E40F07A.28275.BE6F4A@localhost>
References: <003e01c2cd3a$107cb240$aebcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <3E41228B.2347.19D9A90@localhost>


> > For what it is worth, dah dah dididit, dah dah dah, dah was what
> > I used to send reports back to England,
> > 
> > 7MT 

> I think you put an extra "dah" in your M.  :-)
> Can you tell us more about sending reports to England?

I'd like to hear more about the procedure also. 
I am curious what the " 7MT "  or "7OT " (whichever is right), refers 
to?  Was this the Molesworth callsign or something?

 I also wanted to comment on the Todd Holritt post.  The squadron 
callsigns he posted, ie WHIPCREAM, EAVESDROP, TOYDOLL, and NEWROW 
agree with what I have found in my research, and also the CBW 
callsigns.  But I wanted to clarify that the Cowboy (and I assume 
this would apply to the Fatgal callsign as well)  callsign was the 
41st CBW callsign.  The original question in this thread asked for 
the 303rd BG callsign, which wasn't included in that post.
    From what I have determined, and this may not be correct, on 
missions, the 303rdBG would use the 41st CBW callsign plus either 
able, baker, charlie, or dog, depending on their position in the CBW 
formation that particular day.  Ie one day the 303rd might be "Coyboy 
Able", and another day, they might be "Coyboy Charlie", etc.  
   Also, from what I have seen in the papers I have, the squadron 
callsigns shown above, may not have been used on missions, because 
the flimsys I have indicate callsigns like  "Coyboy Baker LOW", or 
"Coyboy Baker Lead" to indicate a particular squadron, while on a 
mission.  I have several references for using the squadron callsigns 
for local flights around England, however.
    However the question still needs answering, with respect to what 
the callsign for the 303rdBG was, assuming that it had one.   I have 
a couple documents indicating that the Molesworth base callsign might 
have been  " SABBO "   .   Could this have been the 303rdBG callsign? 
 If so, when would it have been used? Perhaps just when contacting 
the field prior to landing?  I assume that on missions, the Cowboy-
Baker type callsign would be used, and on local flights, the squadron 
callsigns would be used.   Or did the 303rd just not have a callsign? 
 
Just curious.  



 

303rd BG Radio Callsigns.
41st CBW 15 Sept 43 till Mar 1944 FATGAL, Apr 1944 till VE Day 
COWBOY.
303rd Spring 1944 till VE day 358BS= WHIPCREAM  359BS= EAVESDROP 
360BS=
TOYDOLL 427BS= NEWROW Todd- (303rd BGA A637)

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 17:09:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:09:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
In-Reply-To: <009101c2cd5f$fd075aa0$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: <20030206170923.96328.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

In The Mighty Eighth by Freeman, he mentions that
later in the war Bomb Groups were given an older, war
weary fighter, usually a P-47, to shepherd the
Assembly of the bombers.  Did the 303rd have such a
plane?
Cheers,
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 17:39:23 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:39:23 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 7MT
Message-ID: <001701c2ce06$b0986c20$cbbcf5cd@computer>

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When I was "promoted" to lead crew status I could do 25 wpm. And I =
goofed on 7MT. Shame on me.

7MT was in London, I believe. As Lead RO, I prepared and sent position =
messages as provided to me by our Navigator.
Usually two msgs. One as we were entering enemy territory and another at =
the IP, as we entered bomb run.
After "bombs away" I sent a report as based on Bombardiers info as to =
the results of our strike and time.

All this was encoded before I sent the messages and it kept me too busy =
to worry about flak and ME-262's.

The code of the day was on rice paper and I was to eat the paper if need =
be. Luckily there was no need.

For Gary Holtorf: I was on those missions you mention and am sorry to =
relate that I do not recall your Dad. We may be in same photo if lead =
crew photos were taken . I have no photos but will crank up my 303rd CD =
to see what is there.

Fory=20
Kuykendalls RO
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When I was "promoted" to lead crew =
status I=20
could do 25 wpm. And I goofed on 7MT. Shame on me.


 


7MT was in London, I believe. As Lead =
RO, I=20
prepared and sent position messages as provided to me by our=20
Navigator.


Usually two msgs. One as we were =
entering enemy=20
territory and another at the IP, as we entered bomb run.


After "bombs away" I sent a report as =
based on=20
Bombardiers info as to the results of our strike and time.


 


All this was encoded before I sent the =
messages=20
and it kept me too busy to worry about flak and ME-262's.


 


The code of the day was on rice paper =
and I was=20
to eat the paper if need be. Luckily there was no need.


 


For Gary Holtorf: I was on those =
missions you=20
mention and am sorry to relate that I do not recall your Dad. We may be =
in same=20
photo if lead crew photos were taken . I have no photos but will crank =
up my=20
303rd CD to see what is there.


 


Fory 


Kuykendalls =
RO


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 18:24:01 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:24:01 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB8A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list,
I am trying to help a friend find out some information about his uncle.
This uncle was killed in Sept of 43 when his plane crashed into Skiddaw
Mountain in ENG.  He was on a volunteer mission to return some injured
airmen who had crashed in the same area.  At the time he was supposed to
have been assigned to the 482nd  BG(PFF).  Records of the crash state that
he was with the 482nd but the 482nd has no record of him.  Apparently his
records were also a victim of the 1973 fire.  No personnel records exist.

He does have an air medal and two campaign ribbons indicating that he was in
a combat theater for more than 30 days.  Family tradition records that he
completed his 25 and was waiting to go home when the crash occurred.  But
they have no proof of this or even if he was with a BG prior to the 482nd.
First question: would an air medal ever be awarded to someone who did not
complete the minimum 5 missions?

While reading "3 engines, half a wing and a prayer" this morning, I came
across a statement that a 2LT Jacob James of the 427th had been transferred
to the 482nd PFF.  I searched for him on the 303rd site with little success.
I know that he came to the 303rd on 29 May 43.   Second question: Can
someone tell me how many missions he flew and when he was transferred? My
reasons are too complicated to explain.

Lastly, is there a way to determine what BG's were in or arrived in ENG
during the first 9 months of 1943?

Thanks for whatever help you can provide.

Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Feb  6 21:42:22 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BB8A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20030206214222.20268.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  The Mighty Eighth, by Roger Freeman, has a
group history at the back of the book that will answer
your last question about groups becoming operational
in 1944.  Sorry I can't help with the other two
questions.  The 482nd in 1943 was somewhat of a
mysterious Group because of all the new fangled radar
they were experimenting with.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
Kevin
--- "Tooley, Dave"  wrote:
> Hi list,
> I am trying to help a friend find out some
> information about his uncle.
> This uncle was killed in Sept of 43 when his plane
> crashed into Skiddaw
> Mountain in ENG.  He was on a volunteer mission to
> return some injured
> airmen who had crashed in the same area.  At the
> time he was supposed to
> have been assigned to the 482nd  BG(PFF).  Records
> of the crash state that
> he was with the 482nd but the 482nd has no record of
> him.  Apparently his
> records were also a victim of the 1973 fire.  No
> personnel records exist.
> 
> He does have an air medal and two campaign ribbons
> indicating that he was in
> a combat theater for more than 30 days.  Family
> tradition records that he
> completed his 25 and was waiting to go home when the
> crash occurred.  But
> they have no proof of this or even if he was with a
> BG prior to the 482nd.
> First question: would an air medal ever be awarded
> to someone who did not
> complete the minimum 5 missions?
> 
> While reading "3 engines, half a wing and a prayer"
> this morning, I came
> across a statement that a 2LT Jacob James of the
> 427th had been transferred
> to the 482nd PFF.  I searched for him on the 303rd
> site with little success.
> I know that he came to the 303rd on 29 May 43.  
> Second question: Can
> someone tell me how many missions he flew and when
> he was transferred? My
> reasons are too complicated to explain.
> 
> Lastly, is there a way to determine what BG's were
> in or arrived in ENG
> during the first 9 months of 1943?
> 
> Thanks for whatever help you can provide.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 04:13:46 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:13:46 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Call Signs
Message-ID: <7a.37d9e4a7.2b748c7a@aol.com>

My Grandfather, Colonel Ford Lauer, commanded the 99th BG (15th AF) in 1944. 
He led the first shuttle bombing mission to Russia on June 2nd (Operation 
Frantic). While in Russia, the group flew a mission out of Poltavia. None of 
the upper echelon wizards or cloak and dagger types were along. During pre 
mission briefing, one of the pilots asked Colonel Lauer what the code word 
for target bombed was. Colonel Lauer decided to tell them a code word he was 
sure they wouldn't forget. The code word for target bombed was "POONTANG."  
Not very politically correct these days, but what the heck. Just a little 
historical humor................Ford J. Lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 04:21:12 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:21:12 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
Message-ID: 




Kevin -


The 303rd did indeed have such a plane. In fact, I believe I remember seeing a picture of two Jugs parked near the J-hangar (might want to check the website). While in England, I commissioned Keith Hill to do an original painting of Lew Lyle taking off in the 303rd P-47 prior to a mission. I believe it was in Ben Smith's book that he talks about Col Lyle watching the group form up in his P-47, and cut the grass while buzzing the airfield. The painting still hangs at Molesworth, in the Lewis E. Lyle Conference Room in the Might In Flight Building (the main operations building). It entitled it "Ready to Go," and I put together a full page of text that hangs next to it. Unfortunately, I no longer have that text.


Cheers from the Midlands. Come visit McGuire's Aviation Art next time in Omaha. 


Brian S. McGuire








>From: Kevin Pearson 

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly 

>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:09:23 -0800 (PST) 

> 

>In The Mighty Eighth by Freeman, he mentions that 

>later in the war Bomb Groups were given an older, war 

>weary fighter, usually a P-47, to shepherd the 

>Assembly of the bombers. Did the 303rd have such a 

>plane? 

>Cheers, 

>Kevin 

> 

>__________________________________________________ 

>Do you Yahoo!? 

>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. 

>http://mailplus.yahoo.com 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 17:28:49 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marleen Eastin)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 11:28:49 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: 

Good morning,
  I was wondering about something that I think I have heard or read about.  
Didn't families of service men and women display gold stars in their windows 
during WW II or something like that.
  I would like to know what the custom was so that I can display it at our 
house.  We have 2 sons in the service right now, one in Kuwait.  It seems 
like a neat way to show our love and pride for our sons and others.
  Thank you so much for your help.  I love reading what you have to say each 
day!!
God bless,
Marleen





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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 22:27:37 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:27:37 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Need some help
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688002580C0D@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

My thanks to two Bills and a Kevin.  You have provided the direction I
needed.
Dave




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Feb  7 21:21:51 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (A. BOERSMA)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:21:51 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: <000a01c2ceee$eed3ee40$18ec23c3@brigtta>

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I understand that every aircraft in a formation had its own navigator.
What was his task as only the lead aircraft navigator led the formation.
Could and would he call faulty navigation to the attention of the lead =
navigator ?

Greetings from a spectator near the receiving end,
Ton Boersma
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I understand that every aircraft =
in a=20
formation had its own navigator.


What was his task as only the lead =
aircraft=20
navigator led the formation.


Could and would he call faulty =
navigation to the=20
attention of the lead navigator ?


 


Greetings from a spectator near the =
receiving=20
end,


Ton Boersma


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 02:02:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20030208020221.47700.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Yikes, Marleen!  Gold Stars meant someone in your
family had been killed.  Silver Stars meant you had
someone in the Service.  The Mother of the Sullivans
had five Gold Stars in her window.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 03:34:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:34:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: <179.15dbeb8f.2b75d4e0@aol.com>

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Blue stars -Gold if you lost one!

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Blue stars -Gold if you lost one!

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 03:39:42 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:39:42 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-47 ^ GOLD STARS
Message-ID: <000901c2cf23$ba5a99e0$72bb9ace@mjpmtman>

Message: 1
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fighter for Assembly
............. Bomb Groups were given ... fighter, usually a P-47, to
 shepherd the Assembly of the bombers.  Did the 303rd have such a
plane?
Cheers,
Kevin
---------------------------------------------------
Please see volume II page 751 of Silver Anniversary Hell's Angel's
Newsletters for photo of P47 that was on our field . This appears in the
August issue of  1996. Also a photo on Page 768 by R. B. Hellinger &
a photo on page 729 by S. W. Smith.. It seems to me in a later issue
someone wrote about.the history of this "jug".  Have searched the  from
theAug. '96 issue into the 2001 issues --nothing..

It was abandoned  in a hangar for lack of repairs zfter an emergency
 landing at some other field. Some one [CO at the time???] sent mechanics to
salvage it and after
 stripping the armament it was flown to our base and used to form up the out
 going formation and meet the returning formation. Don't recall who wrote
the dissertation. --Harry Gobrecht ?????????

RE---GOLD STARS IN WINDOW   Marleen --I think the service star was red.
 -- The gold star was for KIA.
MAURICE J.. PAULK





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 05:51:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:51:09 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
References: 
Message-ID: <002001c2cf36$152f4c00$162664d8@computer>

Marleen:  The practice was to hang a small banner with blue star for each
person in service.  You don't want the gold stars as that was for people
killed in the service.

Ed Lamme



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 17:53:09 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:53:09 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944
References: <000c01c2925e$88ce5580$f2bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <002001c2cf9a$f1eab800$6700a8c0@Home>

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Hi Fory - I just received my copy of "The Molesworth Story".
I see that you and your crew were among those forced to RON at Laon =
France to refuel before returning to Molesworth the following day. My =
Dad was a member of the Hatch crew on this mission and they were also =
among the crews that spent that night on the continent.
Were you able to do any sightseeing or make contact with the locals =
while you were in France on this trip?
Where were the crews billeted and fed while you were there? What sort of =
base was A-70? I assume that it was an auxiliary field and that 14 =
crews, over 100 airmen , might stretch their resources.
I seem to remember Dad once saying that rounding up all of the crew =
members for the return to England took a little searching.
Thanks and best regards, Gary Holtorf

(Thanks to Gary Moncur for the quick turnaround on my CD order. Great =
Job on the CD!)


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Hi Fory - I just received my copy of =
"The=20
Molesworth Story".


I see that you and your crew were =
among those=20
forced to RON at Laon France to refuel before returning to Molesworth =
the=20
following day. My Dad was a member of the Hatch crew on this mission and =
they=20
were also among the crews that spent that night on the=20
continent.


Were you able to do any sightseeing or =
make=20
contact with the locals while you were in France on this =
trip?


Where were the crews billeted and fed =
while you=20
were there? What sort of base was A-70? I assume that it was an =
auxiliary field=20
and that 14 crews, over 100 airmen , might stretch their =
resources.


I seem to remember Dad once =
saying that=20
rounding up all of the crew members for the return to England took =
a little=20
searching.


Thanks and best regards, Gary=20
Holtorf


 


(Thanks to Gary Moncur for the quick =
turnaround=20
on my CD order. Great Job on the CD!)


 


 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:42:53 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:42:53 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-47 ^ GOLD STARS
In-Reply-To: <000901c2cf23$ba5a99e0$72bb9ace@mjpmtman>
Message-ID: <3E44DF2D.20743.BC6C2F@localhost>

 
> It was abandoned  in a hangar for lack of repairs zfter an emergency
>  landing at some other field. Some one [CO at the time???] sent mechanics to
> salvage it and after
>  stripping the armament it was flown to our base and used to form up the out
>  going formation and meet the returning formation. Don't recall who wrote
> the dissertation. --Harry Gobrecht ?????????

Re  P-47 ,   I captured an image from my 16mm movie taken on a couple 
missions in 1945, and a P-47 shows up at one point, apparently 
escorting a plane with an engine out. I captured an image.

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/afight2.jpg  

This is a VERY poor quality image, but it is definately a P-47.
Perhaps this is the 303rds P-47, because it is at a time in the war 
when supposedly the P-47s had been replaced by the newer fighters.




 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:46:21 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Smith)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 09:46:21 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Scorchy 2
Message-ID: 

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First I want to say hello to all my fellow Member's of the 303rd website =
and I'm happy to be apart to of this website. I'm right now I'm =
finishing up my model of the 303rd bomb group 17 Scorchy 2. I plan on =
making a diorama scene with this plane with it's ground crew making =
repair's on it and so fourth. I have tried digging up some information =
about this plane such as how many mission's it flew, and photo's of the =
plane, stories about the crew and so fourth to include in my project but =
have come up empty handed. I saw only one photo of the plane on the =
303rd website but that's it. If anyone has any information about this =
B-17 such as photo's, crew information and so fourth please let me know. =
I would even be interested in talking to some vet's who may have =
personal first hand knowledge of the aircraft. Any information would be =
helpful as I get started on the diorama. So once again a warm hello to =
all of you and it's great to be apart of the 303rd website forum.

Steve Smith
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First I want to say hello to all my fellow Member's of the 303rd =
website=20
and I'm happy to be apart to of this website. I'm right now I'm =
finishing up my=20
model of the 303rd bomb group 17 Scorchy 2. I plan on making a diorama =
scene=20
with this plane with it's ground crew making repair's on it and so =
fourth. I=20
have tried digging up some information about this plane such as how many =

mission's it flew, and photo's of the plane, stories about the crew and =
so=20
fourth to include in my project but have come up empty handed. I saw =
only one=20
photo of the plane on the 303rd website but that=92s it. If anyone has =
any=20
information about this B-17 such as photo's, crew information and so =
fourth=20
please let me know. I would even be interested in talking to some vet's =
who may=20
have personal first hand knowledge of the aircraft. Any information =
would be=20
helpful as I get started on the diorama. So once again a warm hello to =
all of=20
you and it's great to be apart of the 303rd website forum.

Steve=20
Smith


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 17:15:06 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:15:06 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Protecting Classified Data
References: <000c01c2925e$88ce5580$f2bcf5cd@computer>
Message-ID: <001301c2cf96$6ee153a0$6700a8c0@Home>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Fory Barton=20
  To: 303rd - BGA=20
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:37 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] Protecting Classified Data


  A reference to destroying the Norden bomb sight and related papers =
reminded me that we RO's,who were given the "code of the day" for Morse =
message transmissions, were told to eat the rice paper flimsy in an =
emergency. Thus preventing the enemy from learning our code system.

  Fory Barton
  Kuykendalls RO
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----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Fory =
Barton=20
  
  
  
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 =
12:37=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
Protecting=20
  Classified Data

  


  
A reference to destroying the Norden =
bomb=20
  sight and related papers reminded me that we RO's,who were given the =
"code of=20
  the day" for Morse message transmissions, were told to eat the rice =
paper=20
  flimsy in an emergency. Thus preventing the enemy from learning our =
code=20
  system.

  
 

  
Fory Barton

  
Kuykendalls=20
RO


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 18:37:45 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:37:45 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
Message-ID: 

Ton Boersma
     The Navigators had an extremely difficult and important job. It sounds 
easy. That job was to know exactly were from take off until back at our base 
so we would be sure and be half way between our navigation lights when we 
turned our bird back to the ground crews. Please read on.
     We used 4 basic forms of navigation.(1) Pilotage (just looking at a map 
and following it to your destination) (2) DR, Dead Reckoning (using your 
instruments to calculate your ground speed Wind, altitude, and course 
(3)Celestrial [Using stars and a sextant to establish your position. And (4) 
Radio To establish course and distance. I won't go into these as it would 
take to long and you can get that out of a book if you are interested or 
already know  There is a 5th method we use in the states but not over there 
called IFR.(I follow the Railroad)
     Each method has its limitations Celestial was out on missions as it only 
works well at night (No Stars in daylight and other problems)    Pilotage is 
subject to observing the ground which we often couldn't due to fog, clouds, 
vapor trails, smoke, poor visibility, & other factors. Radio was and is very 
accurate but subject to enemy jamming, interference, our altitude and 
distance from the stations. 
     Now you have the basics. Lets get back to your questions. What was the 
wing navigators there for?  If we had to leave the formation (Not if, When.)  
We lost one or two engines and had to get home alone.  Most or all the 
formation got shot down except us. Our stupid pilots couldn't fly formation 
and they didn't get washed out in cadets.  or why ever.  We knew where the 
enemy's anti aircraft guns were. We didn't want to fly over them. We were 
cowards. We found it much safer to pick our way around them. We were short of 
fuel of or had wounded aboard and didn't want to mill around hunting for the 
airport in the fog.    
     Could and would the wing navigators correct the lead Navigators faulty 
navigation? NO.   It took about 20 seconds for an anti aircraft shell to get 
up to our altitude. During that 20 seconds we would travel about one mile so 
the enemy gunners had to lead us about one mile (Talk to your duck hunting 
friends) If the lead Navigator changed course every 20 seconds the enemy 
gunner had to guess where we were going to be when his shell got up to us. 
This made it rough on the wing navigators but that was their job. To know 
exactly where we were. They knew our destination and general course but did 
not know exactly when, if, how much, our speed, altitude,temperature,etc 
would be when and if the lead Navigator did what ever he was going to do. The 
lead Navigaot did not plan that in advance either. He observed what was going 
on as to flak, enemy fighters in the area, clouds, our schedule, etc., &, 
etc., and made fast decisions. Some times they were even good ones.  Sherman 
was right.
     Best Wishes.    
       Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 16:43:38 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:43:38 -0800
Subject: [303rd-Talk] eBay photo 303rd Knock Out Dropper
Message-ID: <003a01c2cf91$3bafcde0$8991c8cf@altonmain>

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3205240837&category=4727

it a URL for an item on eBay that some of you might be interested in, if
just to look at.
I have copied the photo, and attached it. Just a few hours left to bid.
I am not promoting it, just thought some of you might be interested.
Gordy.

Gordon Alton
Box 855
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3
250-537-5913
tailgunnerson@uniserve.com
"Please remember those who gave so
much to keep your freedom free..."

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 15:40:39 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marleen Eastin)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 09:40:39 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
Message-ID: 




Thank you so much for your answers to my question about the gold stars in the windows.  I definitely will not be putting a gold one up.  And pray that I won't have to ever.  I am not sure which one I will put up......silver, blue, or red!  I will do some research.


Thanks again!!


Marleen







 

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES.  Get 2 months FREE*.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 16:53:28 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:53:28 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold stars
References: <20030208020221.47700.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002801c2cf92$a16634c0$7168db40@billowen>

Marleen, you placed the banner with a blue star in the window to indicate
that you had someone in the service. If you had someone killed then you
replaced it with a gold star. I still have the gold star we had for my
brother. I pray that all your stars will be blue....Bill Owen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] gold stars


> Yikes, Marleen!  Gold Stars meant someone in your
> family had been killed.  Silver Stars meant you had
> someone in the Service.  The Mother of the Sullivans
> had five Gold Stars in her window.
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 18:44:13 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:44:13 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunions
Message-ID: <3E4509AD.20272.1627659@localhost>

   This may sound like a strange question, but I'm curious whether 
anyone who was in the 360th attended a 360thBS reunion in Pittsburgh, 
back in the early 50s, or perhaps late 40s?
   Reason I ask, is that I have memories of going to the penthouse of 
a hotel with my father, when I was about 7 years old.  I was 
introduced to a person who was a counter-spy for the FBI, who was a 
hero at the time (his name was Matt Cvetic, of "I was a Communist for 
the FBI" fame )  .  I remember meeting the man, but I have had no 
memory of WHY.
   Well yesterday, I had a visit from my uncle, who is my only known 
relative who was around back then, and I asked him if he knew why, 
and he said, "Oh, yes, your father was arranging with him to speak at 
his AAF Squadron's reunion".    So I assume that there must have been 
a 360thBS reunion back then.
   I'm just curious whether anyone here might have attended that, and 
might remember a speach given by a spy?  

  Just curious.  





 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 21:28:52 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:28:52 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators (Correction)
Message-ID: 

Ton Boersma, 
     On my answer to you concerning Navigators I goofed. Please in the 2nd 
line after the word exactly insert "where we were" at all times during the 
mission.
     ThankYou,
             Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 22:16:20 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:16:20 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mysterious P-47
Message-ID: 

In a letter I got from Hal Orenstein (360) dated 7 Feb.,1987 (he  has since
passed on due to emphysema)....roommate Hal says:
Regarding the razorback Jug, it was Col. Raper's and named "Peck O' Trouble"
before he had it stripped and waxed for his personal use.  As you might
recall, this was "war-weary" and he subsequently swapped it for a much newer
model with bubble and dorsal fin".
Scrounging through my files I found a picture of this plane showing the name
in a ribbon flowing from the cowl which was also plastered with art work.

Orenstein got a purple heart over Gelsenkirchen and went on after the war to
be an L-1011 Captain for Eastern, where he flew for 30 years.  Cheers, Bob
Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Feb  8 23:51:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:51:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: <000a01c2ceee$eed3ee40$18ec23c3@brigtta>
Message-ID: <000b01c2cfcd$11085800$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

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HEY Ton:
Lead navigators were lead navigators because they did not make errors!!! =
Besides there wasa Wing  Lead, Group Lead  squadron Lead and for each =
position there was a deputy lead--do the math how many of these would be =
in error, anyway there was a restriction on radio talk.
If any one plane got knocked out of formation on a mission , that =
plane's naviagator better well know the geographical cocation of his =
aircraft so that he could give his pilot a flight path that would take =
them around flak emplacements and safely back to the shores of Jolly Old =
England. Pilots may be able to do pilotage, but when flying in overcast =
they do need help.
LeRoy Christenson, Navigator=20
                                                                         =
                                         ---                             =
         Original Message -----=20
  From: A. BOERSMA=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:21 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators


  I understand that every aircraft in a formation had its own navigator.
  What was his task as only the lead aircraft navigator led the =
formation.
  Could and would he call faulty navigation to the attention of the lead =
navigator ?

  Greetings from a spectator near the receiving end,
  Ton Boersma
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HEY Ton:


Lead navigators were lead navigators =
because they=20
did not make errors!!! Besides there wasa Wing  Lead, Group =
Lead =20
squadron Lead and for each position there was a deputy lead--do the math =
how=20
many of these would be in error, anyway there was a restriction on=20
radio talk.


If any one plane got knocked out of =
formation on a=20
mission , that plane's naviagator better well know the geographical =
cocation of=20
his aircraft so that he could give his pilot a flight path that would =
take them=20
around flak emplacements and safely back to the shores of Jolly Old =

England. Pilots may be able to do pilotage, but when flying in overcast =
they do=20
need help.


LeRoy Christenson, =
Navigator 


          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
     =20
---           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
=20
 Original Message ----- 



  From:=20
  A.=20
  BOERSMA 
  
  
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 =
3:21=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
navigators

  


  
I understand that every aircraft =
in a=20
  formation had its own navigator.

  
What was his task as only the lead =
aircraft=20
  navigator led the formation.

  
Could and would he call faulty =
navigation to the=20
  attention of the lead navigator ?

  
 

  
Greetings from a spectator near the =
receiving=20
  end,

  
Ton =
Boersma


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 04:09:02 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:09:02 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Laon, France
Message-ID: <001801c2cff0$fb7143c0$4f9a46c6@computer>

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for Gary Holtorf in particular.
Reference the RON at Laon, I cannot recall our target that day at this =
moment but I recall the occasion. Several crews were airborne when the =
mission was delayed for some reason. So we circled until the mission =
resumed.
Therefore , we crews who circled did not have enough fuel to make it =
back.=20
Our billets was a big building that the Germans had used as a HQ. It was =
apparently used as an overnight spot for guys in our fix. A M/Sgt was in =
charge of the place.
Several JU-88's littered the strip and we looked them over. My =
recollection is that we were told to stay out of town as the populace =
was unhappy due to strafing jobs done by our fighters.
We gassed up next day and back to Molesworth.

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
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for Gary Holtorf in =
particular.


Reference the RON at Laon, I cannot =
recall our=20
target that day at this moment but I recall the occasion. Several crews =
were=20
airborne when the mission was delayed for some reason. So we circled =
until the=20
mission resumed.


Therefore , we crews who circled did =
not have=20
enough fuel to make it back. 


Our billets was a big building that =
the Germans=20
had used as a HQ. It was apparently used as an overnight spot for guys =
in our=20
fix. A M/Sgt was in charge of the place.


Several JU-88's littered the strip and =
we looked=20
them over. My recollection is that we were told to stay out of town as =
the=20
populace was unhappy due to strafing jobs done by our =
fighters.


We gassed up next day and back to=20
Molesworth.


 


Fory


Kuykendalls =
RO


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 15:51:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 10:51:58 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944
In-Reply-To: <002001c2cf9a$f1eab800$6700a8c0@Home>
Message-ID: 

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> Ah, how well we remember the  Soest raid and the critical fuel situation,
> followed by permission to short stop (at  Orly, was it?) and  Pilot Fink=B9=
s
> reaction, despite our earnest pleas, =B3Waal, ah thank we can make it on th=
e
> fuel we=B9ve got.=B2  After all, who should know better than he, who flew
> precisely by the book.  By golly, we cleared the White Cliffs and fuel-st=
arved
> Number one quit, and approaching Molesworth there went Number Two, gaspin=
g for
> fuel.  We peeled off and were on the downwind when Number Three said Good=
-Bye
> and rounding on to final it was Adios to Number Four.  Fully confident, M=
ike
> Fink glided in and painted ol=B9 F-PU on the runway with four dead engines,=
 at
> which point we of the crew had to get out and push our aircraft back to t=
he
> revetment.  The good news was that we made it back safe and sound and the=
 bad
> news was no souvenirs from the RON in France. Lt Fink, we still love ya!
> Cheers, Bob Hand=20
>=20



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Re: [303rd-Talk] Mission 282, Soest, 4 December 1944



Ah, how well we remember the  Soest r=
aid and the critical fuel situation, followed by permission to short stop (a=
t  Orly, was it?) and  Pilot Fink’s reaction, despite our ea=
rnest pleas, “Waal, ah thank we can make it on the fuel we’ve go=
t.”  After all, who should know better than he, who flew precisel=
y by the book.  By golly, we cleared the White Cliffs and fuel-starved =
Number one quit, and approaching Molesworth there went Number Two, gasping f=
or fuel.  We peeled off and were on the downwind when Number Three said=
 Good-Bye and rounding on to final it was Adios to Number Four.  Fully =
confident, Mike Fink glided in and painted ol’ F-PU on the runway with=
 four dead engines, at which point we of the crew had to get out and push ou=
r aircraft back to the revetment.  The good news was that we made it ba=
ck safe and sound and the bad news was no souvenirs from the RON in France. =
Lt Fink, we still love ya!  Cheers, Bob Hand  











--B_3127632718_4092783--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 17:08:58 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:08:58 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: 
Message-ID: <030701c2d05d$f0949340$6700a8c0@Home>

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] navigators


> Ton Boersma
>      The Navigators had an extremely difficult and important job. It
sounds
> easy. That job was to know exactly were from take off until back at our
base
> so we would be sure and be half way between our navigation lights when we
> turned our bird back to the ground crews. Please read on.
>      We used 4 basic forms of navigation.(1) Pilotage (just looking at a
map
> and following it to your destination) (2) DR, Dead Reckoning (using your
> instruments to calculate your ground speed Wind, altitude, and course
> (3)Celestrial [Using stars and a sextant to establish your position. And
(4)
> Radio To establish course and distance. I won't go into these as it would
> take to long and you can get that out of a book if you are interested or
> already know  There is a 5th method we use in the states but not over
there
> called IFR.(I follow the Railroad)
>      Each method has its limitations Celestial was out on missions as it
only
> works well at night (No Stars in daylight and other problems)    Pilotage
is
> subject to observing the ground which we often couldn't due to fog,
clouds,
> vapor trails, smoke, poor visibility, & other factors. Radio was and is
very
> accurate but subject to enemy jamming, interference, our altitude and
> distance from the stations.
>      Now you have the basics. Lets get back to your questions. What was
the
> wing navigators there for?  If we had to leave the formation (Not if,
When.)
> We lost one or two engines and had to get home alone.  Most or all the
> formation got shot down except us. Our stupid pilots couldn't fly
formation
> and they didn't get washed out in cadets.  or why ever.  We knew where the
> enemy's anti aircraft guns were. We didn't want to fly over them. We were
> cowards. We found it much safer to pick our way around them. We were short
of
> fuel of or had wounded aboard and didn't want to mill around hunting for
the
> airport in the fog.
>      Could and would the wing navigators correct the lead Navigators
faulty
> navigation? NO.   It took about 20 seconds for an anti aircraft shell to
get
> up to our altitude. During that 20 seconds we would travel about one mile
so
> the enemy gunners had to lead us about one mile (Talk to your duck hunting
> friends) If the lead Navigator changed course every 20 seconds the enemy
> gunner had to guess where we were going to be when his shell got up to us.
> This made it rough on the wing navigators but that was their job. To know
> exactly where we were. They knew our destination and general course but
did
> not know exactly when, if, how much, our speed, altitude,temperature,etc
> would be when and if the lead Navigator did what ever he was going to do.
The
> lead Navigaot did not plan that in advance either. He observed what was
going
> on as to flak, enemy fighters in the area, clouds, our schedule, etc., &,
> etc., and made fast decisions. Some times they were even good ones.
Sherman
> was right.
>      Best Wishes.
>        Jack Rencher
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 18:30:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:30:59 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Gold Stars
Message-ID: <8.33f307f1.2b77f863@aol.com>

If I'm not mistaken, Gold stars meant that a member of the household was 
killed in action. I think blue stars were displayed to let people know 
someone from the household was serving. (one star for each)

The most tragic was the Sullivan brothers. All five sons were killed in 
action when their ship was torpedoed. They had all demanded to serve 
together, but after they were all killed the navy wouldn't allow brothers to 
serve together. Hope this helps.............Ford J. lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Feb  9 20:15:59 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:15:59 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] navigators
References: 
Message-ID: <036d01c2d078$11b4a6e0$6700a8c0@Home>

I've noticed that the PFF (ground sensing radar) equipped A/C, that were
often used in lead and deputy lead positions, had an additional Navigator,
"Mickey Nav." on the crew. What was this crew members responsibility? (Why
was he called Mickey?) What was the nature of the equipment, type of
display, capability, etc? Was it a Navigational tool too or was it only used
for bomb aiming and IP identification. I have similar questions regarding
the GEE-H system. I assume that the GEE-H was a "localizer" like system that
provided intersecting "beams" the formation would use to make the run when
visibility was bad. Who operated this equipment? Was there an order of
preference for bomb aiming? ie. Visual, GEE-H then PFF. The Nordens were
certainly excellent, well known and well guarded devices, but it seems we
also had other, less well known, advanced technology available to deliver
ordinance.

I was a Bomb/Nav system tech. on B52s in the 60s. This was an integrated
Bombing and Navigation Radar system. I'm interested in how this equipment
evolved. The early model B52s still had an optical bomb-sight as well as the
radar bomb sight. Both were used enroute to update winds etc. for navigation
and bombing by observing groud track vs heading & airspeed. Altitude (AGL)
could be calibrated by observing the "radar hole". The nearest return would
be directly below the A/C and could be used to get true (ASL) over
geographical features of known elevation. Was the PFF system used in similar
ways?

Just an observation on my part: I did get the opportunity to ride along as
an in flight mechanic to work system problems that could not be duplicated
on the ground. On these flights my observation is that the Navigator was the
most active and nervous crewmember on board. Constantly checking and
cross-checking present position, wind assumptions, making celestial shots
etc. As soon as one round of checks using one method or Nav-aid was done,
he'd be off cross-checking using another. When, rarely, the Nav. would put
his pencil down, it wouldn't be 10 seconds before he'd pick it back up.

I'm sure that this was the case with the 303rd's Navigators as well, knowing
where you are, where you're supposed to be, how to get where you're going
and back home again, at all times, was an awesome responsiility. All the
while I'm sure the Germans were doing their best to make sure that whatever
Navigation Aids were available could not be relied on.

Thanks, Sorry to be so windy, Gary Holtorf



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Feb 10 14:13:56 2003
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:13:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Blue Stars
Message-ID: <001301c2d10e$a6ed1da0$269a46c6@computer>

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Regarding recent conversation concerning the stars displayed in windows =
during WW II, I dug out the one my father displayed and which I =
"inherited".
There were three blue stars on this one banner as I gad a brother in =
Field Artillery and another brother who joined the Navy.

Much to my surprise9I had forgotten this), my father had taken the 3 =
"ruptured ducks" we received at discharge and had sewn these emblems =
over the stars and had continued to display this in the window.

Does the ruptured duck ring a bell with anyone?

Fory
Kuykendalls RO
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