Re: [303rd-Talk] Thanks

email ...fox@magnumphotos.fr<= /DIV>

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C252A0.73D6D7E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 2 16:54:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:54:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches and Relief References: <002f01c251f4$0607f4d0$0000a398@SHANK> <002901c2526b$c6c47fa0$0f24fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D7389C9.913D044C@attglobal.net> --------------A9AFA29AC22B5F80F58D9CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray ... Anent your missive to Herb Shanker .... after all that British beer, there WOULD be enogh for two five gallon glycol tanks! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Herb Shanker Thanks for your insight into the subject of > snacks on missions. On the question of relief.....TWO five > gallon glycol cans? Good grief, just how much urine did > they expect a ten-man crew to pass? You had enough > capacity for a gallon a piece!! Your entire crew must have > been Texans! Regards Ray CosseyNorwich, England --------------A9AFA29AC22B5F80F58D9CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray ...

Anent your missive to Herb Shanker .... after all that British beer, there WOULD be enogh for two five gallon glycol tanks!

WCH

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

Herb Shanker Thanks for your insight into the subject of snacks on missions. On the question of relief.....TWO five gallon glycol cans? Good grief, just how much urine did they expect a ten-man crew to pass? You had enough capacity for a gallon a piece!! Your entire crew must have been Texans! Regards Ray CosseyNorwich, England

--------------A9AFA29AC22B5F80F58D9CD0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 2 16:56:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:56:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Knocked up References: <002501c2527d$d7a1f3e0$6e4679c3@default> Message-ID: <3D738A45.200EBAE9@attglobal.net> Thanks, Hans. WCH hans reusink wrote: > Dear Lord von Bsiebzehn. > I remember being with a group of american's mixed with australians. > They had to vist petro and pavlovsk in st Petersburg. > At the end of the tour, the group gathered in front where the beautiful > fountains are, our meeting point. > Everybody was there except a couple who came from Sydney.Finally the couple' > completely exhausted, showed up. > She wanted to apologize and said "Oh daddy I am really knocked up, meaning > in the australian language, being very tired. > Enjoy your articles very much William. > All the best Hans Reusink. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 2 19:40:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:40:28 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gen Lemay Message-ID: <001201c252b0$54863b00$f0bfbad0@cts> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25275.892EEB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just some Cometts I heard when I attended my first Reunion at Seatle in = 1985. Gen Lemay was the speaker at the Boing Field ortdoor gathering. = When Ironbut got up to speak half of the audience got up and left. On = the way out one of the other leaving veterans who had served under Lemay = in the 8th air force told this story. " When Ironass spoke to the Crews = at mission breifing the first thing he said was" I want you men to = understand is that you are expendable" Not a very encouraging thing to = say to those going into combat. At least our Leader Col.Stevens told us = to"Bow Our Necks"=20 but he wasen't an iron ass. Dick " Spider" Smith Pilot 360 and 1st Scouting Force ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25275.892EEB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just some Cometts I heard when I = attended my first=20 Reunion at Seatle in 1985. Gen Lemay was the speaker at the Boing Field = ortdoor=20 gathering. When Ironbut got up to speak half of the audience got = up and=20 left. On the way out one of the other leaving veterans who had served = under=20 Lemay in the 8th air force told this story. " When Ironass spoke to the = Crews at=20 mission breifing the first thing he said was" I want you men to = understand is=20 that you are expendable" Not a very encouraging thing to say to those = going into=20 combat. At least our Leader Col.Stevens told us to"Bow Our Necks" =

but he wasen't an iron = ass.

Dick " Spider" Smith = Pilot 360=20 and 1st Scouting Force

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25275.892EEB80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 2 20:33:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:33:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Language In-Reply-To: <20020902161450.2A3AF53629@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Bill- Your comments on LeMay's statement that he "made the ground rules" have me wondering if that common expression was coined in reference to aviation, i.e., the rules for conduct in and around aircraft on the ground. I had always assumed that it had its roots in Merry Old England and referred to the rules on the grounds of the manor or some such place. But we all know many aviation expressions have worked their way into common use, and I wonder if this is one of them. Ray- An American biscuit is so common to us that it's hard to explain it as something other than a biscuit. I suppose you could call it a "soda bread" or a small unsweetened cake or muffin, 2-3 inches around and about an inch tall. In the northern US, it's typically a breakfast food, best served warm with butter and strawberry preserves on cold mornings by strong women to God-fearing men in place of more overt demonstrations of affection. In the south, you find it served frequently at dinner, supper or whatever you call the evening meal, accompanying ham steak and red-eye gravy. However, it should be noted that overindulgence in such cuisine might cause an excessive fondness for stock-car racing and Garth Brooks music. PS Re your question on British expressions that Americans don't understand, I've often wondered about the derivation of the word "sod" as in "Sod off" or "He's an old sod." I presumed it came from the Biblical behavior (behaviour) that was so greatly frowned upon, but my friend from Salisbury didn't think so when I asked him. I hope it's not considered too vulgar to discuss in polite company. If so, I apologize for any "offence." Happy Labour Day to all our friends in the Commonwealth, where they put the "you" back in labor! Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 2 22:09:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 14:09:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gen Lemay References: <001201c252b0$54863b00$f0bfbad0@cts> Message-ID: <3D73D379.5AD46F1A@attglobal.net> --------------BA1720E8BD8BA39AC7DBE51D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call it what you will, Spider. We WERE expendable and that is the role of a Soldier. WCH spider wrote: > Just some Cometts I heard when I attended my first Reunion > at Seatle in 1985. Gen Lemay was the speaker at the Boing > Field ortdoor gathering. When Ironbut got up to speak half > of the audience got up and left. On the way out one of > the other leaving veterans who had served under Lemay in > the 8th air force told this story. " When Ironass spoke to > the Crews at mission breifing the first thing he said was" > I want you men to understand is that you are expendable" > Not a very encouraging thing to say to those going into > combat. At least our Leader Col.Stevens told us to"Bow Our > Necks"but he wasen't an iron ass. Dick " Spider" Smith > Pilot 360 and 1st Scouting Force --------------BA1720E8BD8BA39AC7DBE51D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call it what you will, Spider. We WERE expendable and that is the role of a Soldier.

WCH

spider wrote:

Just some Cometts I heard when I attended my first Reunion at Seatle in 1985. Gen Lemay was the speaker at the Boing Field ortdoor gathering. When Ironbut got up to speak half of the audience got up and left. On the way out one of the other leaving veterans who had served under Lemay in the 8th air force told this story. " When Ironass spoke to the Crews at mission breifing the first thing he said was" I want you men to understand is that you are expendable" Not a very encouraging thing to say to those going into combat. At least our Leader Col.Stevens told us to"Bow Our Necks"but he wasen't an iron ass. Dick " Spider" Smith Pilot 360 and 1st Scouting Force

--------------BA1720E8BD8BA39AC7DBE51D-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 21:49:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:49:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #689 - 13 msgs References: <20020902161449.E158153623@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <004a01c2538b$5cc52a20$0000a398@SHANK> Rephrasement for Ray Cossey - Ray - You were right to question the capacity of our relief cans as expressed by me as 5 gallons. I have avague picture in the back of my mind which would change the capacity to 2 or 3 gallons each. However, on some of those 8 or 9 hour jobs we might very well have given a good account of ourselves. Although we had one Texan on our crew, I don't believe he exceeded his quota. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #689 - 13 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Midairhunger relief.... (hans80@aol.com) > 2. Brittish Slang (Jay and Robin Primavera) > 3. Re: Brittish Slang (William Heller) > 4. Re: British Slang (ray.cossey1) > 5. Sandwiches and Relief (Rose & Herb Shanker) > 6. Re: Ironpants LeMay (Fordlauer@aol.com) > 7. Re:LeMay (Shaddoe2@aol.com) > 8. No questions tonight (Jprencher@aol.com) > 9. Re: Sandwiches and Relief (ray.cossey1) > 10. Re: Re: Ironpants LeMay (ray.cossey1) > 11. Re: [303rd-Talk]Keep contributing (ray.cossey1) > 12. Knocked up (hans reusink) > 13. Crew of TENNESSEE HILLBILLY mission 26 March 1944 over France. (Fox Jimmy) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: hans80@aol.com > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:08:46 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Midairhunger relief.... > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ray, > > I flew a tour as a radio operator between April and December, 1944. I've > forgotten the exact timing on my responsibility as a restaurateur on missions > but I think it was around D-day that I started receiving a knapsack of > goodies at the RO's mission briefing. The goodies were to be passed out to > the rest of the crew in any lull in activities after the bomb run. The > goodies comprised a copious lean beef or ham sandwich, an orange or an apple, > and usually a Hershey bar (with almonds). > > I flew my missions in many different aircraft in which the radio room > appointments varied considerably. For example, in some I would find an > infantry man's helmet modified to fit over an RO's headset, in others I would > find a sufficient number of flak vests to carpet the radio room floor. In > some aircraft none of those items were on hand but in most there was an item > important for the restaurateur, an electrically heated hand muff that I > plugged in after takeoff and stuffed with the goodies in the knapsack. That > prevented the sandwiches from freezing at altitude and obviated the frequent > complaints I incurred during the early days of the free lunch program. > > Relatedly, I saw a comment on the list once, I think by a ball turret gunner > in response to a query on crew member's responsibilities, that the chief > responsibility of a (non-lead) radio operator was the dispensation of the > goodies. He was very close to being 100% correct, although there were > occasional emergencies were the radio operator could provide important > service. > > Lo' Bob > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" > To: "303rd Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:19:37 -0500 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brittish Slang > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dear Ray > > Trucks and lorries aside, why a biscuit and not a cookie? Everyone know > that biscuits are best eaten with honey or home made jam and MUST accompany > a fried chicken or fired pork chop meal. They may also be eaten for > breakfast either piping hot with butter - NOT margarine and jam or with > sausage gravy. Please make every effort to have cookie instituted in the > British (as opposed to English) language as soon as possible. > > Thanks! > > Jay Primavera > > Sorry folks - I know it's off topic - but I just gotta know! > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 10:50:18 -0700 > From: William Heller > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Brittish Slang > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ray & Theresa, MBE ... > > There is still ONE thing which bothers me ..... WHO ever named that Tube stop, > "Eliphant and Castle" ... ? And, WHAT does it mean? > > Cheers! (now THERE'S something I got whil(st) in the UK! Mel and I used it > ALWAYS!) > > Cheers! > > Sir William von Bsiebsehn > > > > Jay and Robin Primavera wrote: > > > Dear Ray > > > > Trucks and lorries aside, why a biscuit and not a cookie? Everyone know > > that biscuits are best eaten with honey or home made jam and MUST accompany > > a fried chicken or fired pork chop meal. They may also be eaten for > > breakfast either piping hot with butter - NOT margarine and jam or with > > sausage gravy. Please make every effort to have cookie instituted in the > > British (as opposed to English) language as soon as possible. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jay Primavera > > > > Sorry folks - I know it's off topic - but I just gotta know! > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] British Slang > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:23:49 +0100 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Jay & Robin > > For us a 'biscuit' is what you call a 'cookie'. So what is your 'biscuit', > that you have with fried chicken or pork chop meal? I have always been > intrigued as to the way in which the average American often mixes savoury > and sweet tasting foods on the same dish. Not for one minute do I say this > is wrong...it's just different to the way we do things. > > Incidentally, Brian McGuire was quite right to correct my mistake in calling > the 'trunk' a 'locker'. Can't think how I came to make that error....it must > have been a senior-moment, Brian. > > Guess we had better call an end to this discussion, for fear some of you > will think this has little, if anything, to do with the 303rd BG. In any > event, I know our much respected editor dislikes anything getting too > political. Of course, he is quite right on this. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Rose & Herb Shanker" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 16:13:21 -0400 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches and Relief > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C251D2.7DED9760 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Two quick comments on above topics: Sandwiches - we usually got peanut = > butter and jelly and, at times, corned willy sandwiches which could be = > heated in the electric muff (used for hand warming when needed) which we = > had in the radio compartment. Relief - our appurtenances were two 5 = > gallon glycol cans, 1 for the nose (which also covered the cockpit) and = > 1 for the waist (which covered the entire back end. Thought these were = > fairly standard. Herb Shanker > > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C251D2.7DED9760 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >

Two quick comments on above = > topics: =20 > Sandwiches - we usually got peanut butter and jelly and, at times, = > corned willy=20 > sandwiches which could be heated in the electric muff (used for hand = > warming=20 > when needed) which we had in the radio compartment. Relief - our=20 > appurtenances were two 5 gallon glycol cans, 1 for the nose (which also = > covered=20 > the cockpit) and 1 for the waist (which covered the entire back end. = > Thought=20 > these were fairly standard. Herb = > Shanker

> > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C251D2.7DED9760-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: Fordlauer@aol.com > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 16:32:54 EDT > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ironpants LeMay > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > --part1_8b.1d57eecd.2aa3d376_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Howdy Folks, > > I can offer a bit about General LeMay. He and my grandfather, Colonel Ford J. > Lauer flew together in the 2nd bomb group at Langley from 1936 to 1940. They > were professional friends. They were developing the then new B-17 bomber. > LeMay was "all business." When he wasn't flying, he was studying. He never > (or at least rarely) ever drank and partied on the ground with the other > pilots. He was given the nickname "Ironass" by the troops during WW2, because > he was tough, by the book, black and white. (I suppose the term "Ironpants" > was coined for suitable printing.) People and planes were expendable, period. > If a target needed to be bombed then so be it. If it was predicted that half > the planes would go down then that many extras needed to be sent. This is how > he later ran SAC in the cold war. Not a very sympathetis approach, but then > wars must be won. I wrote General LeMay a letter back in 1983, asking about > my grandfather. The general took the time to hand write me a very nice > letter. I still have it and treasure it. Oh well, take > care................................Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_8b.1d57eecd.2aa3d376_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Howdy Folks,
>
> I can offer a bit about General LeMay. He and my grandfather, Colonel Ford J. Lauer flew together in the 2nd bomb group at Langley from 1936 to 1940. They were professional friends. They were developing the then new B-17 bomber. LeMay was "all business." When he wasn't flying, he was studying. He never (or at least rarely) ever drank and partied on the ground with the other pilots. He was given the nickname "Ironass" by the troops during WW2, because he was tough, by the book, black and white. (I suppose the term "Ironpants" was coined for suitable printing.) People and planes were expendable, period. If a target needed to be bombed then so be it. If it was predicted that half the planes would go down then that many extras needed to be sent. This is how he later ran SAC in the cold war. Not a very sympathetis approach, but then wars must be won. I wrote General LeMay a letter back in 1983, asking about my grandfather. The general took the time to hand write me a very nice letter. I still have it and treasure it. Oh well, take care................................Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_8b.1d57eecd.2aa3d376_boundary-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: Shaddoe2@aol.com > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:56:16 EDT > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:LeMay > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > --part1_110.179ec479.2aa3f510_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > To All, > Col. Travis told me a couple of stories about Curtis LeMay, but I cannot > repeat those here if you know what I mean..one morning while on the Berlin > Airlift, LeMay was checking his C-54 aircraft, my a/c was just behind his > a/c..a m/sgt. told LeMay that he couldn't smoke around this a/c...LeMay > stated "I wrote the ground rules-I can do what I want"... > cheers... > Bill Bergeron > > --part1_110.179ec479.2aa3f510_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > To All,
> Col. Travis told me a couple of stories about Curtis LeMay, but I cannot repeat those here if you know what I mean..one morning while on the Berlin Airlift, LeMay was checking his C-54 aircraft, my a/c was just behind his a/c..a m/sgt. told LeMay that he couldn't smoke around this a/c...LeMay stated "I wrote the ground rules-I can do what I want"...
> cheers...
> Bill Bergeron > > --part1_110.179ec479.2aa3f510_boundary-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 23:09:10 EDT > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] No questions tonight > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Gang, > Maybe I won't sleep tonight if I don't do some e-mail. So I'll tell you > I don't remember ever eating on a mission I know some peanut butter and other > sandwiches were some times available, > Someone through a frozen one out up ahead of us and in knocked the Plexiglas > nose out of one of our planes so I am told. I think some of the crews thawed > them out in the electric hand muffs. We did save and use the fuse cans and > toss them out after they froze. Once one of the waist gunners needed > something bigger I don't remember what he found but he figured out something > that worked. > I flew about a 1000 hours or so in a gunnery school at Yuma Arizona > before I got put on a combat crew. We flew 8 hours per day and carried 22 > student gunners plus 2 gunnery instructors. When someone got airsick which > was nearly every day.( 4 of those hours were air to ground gunnery at 150 > feet and the dessert air got rough in the hot afternoons) we sent them back > to the bomb bay. We had a place where we stopped before we parked, opened the > bomb bay doors and hosed them off. It worked great. Of course we carried no > bombs. > Not very interesting is it? Good night you all. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches and Relief > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:57:53 +0100 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2526F.9647A380 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Herb Shanker > > Thanks for your insight into the subject of snacks on missions. On the = > question of relief.....TWO five gallon glycol cans? Good grief, just how = > much urine did they expect a ten-man crew to pass? You had enough = > capacity for a gallon a piece!! Your entire crew must have been Texans! > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2526F.9647A380 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >

Herb Shanker

Thanks for your insight into the = > subject of snacks=20 > on missions. On the question of relief.....TWO five gallon glycol cans? = > Good=20 > grief, just how much urine did they expect a ten-man crew to = > pass? You=20 > had enough capacity for a gallon a piece!! Your entire crew must have = > been=20 > Texans!

Regards

Ray Cossey

Norwich, = > England

> > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2526F.9647A380-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ironpants LeMay > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:01:02 +0100 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25270.06AED0D0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Ford Lauer > > Thanks Ford, for your personal recollections of Gen. LeMay. He sounds a = > real hard man, but one who got things done. I guess it takes all sorts = > of military men (and women) to fight a war. > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25270.06AED0D0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >

Ford Lauer

Thanks Ford, for your personal = > recollections of=20 > Gen. LeMay. He sounds a real hard man, but one who got things done. I = > guess it=20 > takes all sorts of military men (and women) to fight a war.

Regards

Ray Cossey

> > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25270.06AED0D0-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:29:20 +0100 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Keep contributing > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Mr President Jack > > Take it from me, ANY contribution made by you, on the 303rd talk > site, is interesting. Every time I go on-line to check my e-mail, I hope > there is a contribution from your good self. There is no such thing as > trivia coming from your keyboard. > > I have to admit that sometimes, (often, in fact), your highly technical > missives leave me confused, but then I am no technocrat, unlike you. One > thing we do have in common, I believe, is a sense of humour (English > spelling) and this becomes more important as we grow older. > > Keep coming in, Mr President, loud and clear!! > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > From: "hans reusink" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:39:55 +0200 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Knocked up > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dear Lord von Bsiebzehn. > I remember being with a group of american's mixed with australians. > They had to vist petro and pavlovsk in st Petersburg. > At the end of the tour, the group gathered in front where the beautiful > fountains are, our meeting point. > Everybody was there except a couple who came from Sydney.Finally the couple' > completely exhausted, showed up. > She wanted to apologize and said "Oh daddy I am really knocked up, meaning > in the australian language, being very tired. > Enjoy your articles very much William. > All the best Hans Reusink. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: "Fox Jimmy" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:47:40 +0200 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew of TENNESSEE HILLBILLY mission 26 March 1944 over France. > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C252A0.73D6D7E0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > 2nd September 2002=20 > > I am trying to locate the families or surviving crew of the B 17 = > nicknamed TENNESSEE HILLBILLY which was piloted by by 2nd Lt.Charles W = > MASS, there were 10 crewmembers their mission o 26 March 1944 was to = > bomb a German V.2 rocket underground base not far from Calais.; > > 2nd Lt Mass died in 2000 > > Engineer Raymond FOSTER (deceased) > > Radio Operator, Eddie McGinnis (deceased 1995), > > Mars, Arvanites, Bill Dallas survived and were sent to Stalag Luft I in = > North Germany. > > Tech Sgt. Conrad Kersch (bailed out and stayed in France during the rest = > of the war and helped the French Resistance), he apparently had 2 sons = > also in USAF. Kersch formerly lived at Fox River Grove, in Illinois. > > if there are survivors who knew this crew, or visual documentation of = > the crew, please contact the following. > > James A Fox > email ...fox@magnumphotos.fr > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C252A0.73D6D7E0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >

2nd September 2002

I am trying to locate the families or = > surviving=20 > crew of the B 17 nicknamed TENNESSEE HILLBILLY which was piloted by by = > 2nd=20 > Lt.Charles W MASS, there were 10 crewmembers their mission o 26 = > March 1944=20 > was to bomb a German V.2 rocket underground base not far from=20 > Calais.;

2nd Lt Mass died in 2000

Engineer Raymond FOSTER = > (deceased)

Radio Operator, Eddie McGinnis = > (deceased=20 > 1995),

Mars, Arvanites, Bill Dallas survived = > and were sent=20 > to Stalag Luft I in North Germany.

Tech Sgt. Conrad Kersch (bailed out and = > stayed in=20 > France during the rest of the war and helped the French Resistance), he=20 > apparently had 2 sons also in USAF. Kersch formerly lived at Fox = > River=20 > Grove, in Illinois.

if there are survivors who knew this = > crew, or=20 > visual documentation of the crew, please contact the = > following.

James A Fox

email href=3D"mailto:...fox@magnumphotos.fr">...fox@magnumphotos.fr<= > /DIV> >

> > ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C252A0.73D6D7E0-- > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 18:12:42 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:12:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Oct 1943 - Escape and Evasion? Message-ID: Several months ago I asked for input for a mission briefing i.e. Target for Today. Well we preformed a re-enactment for the Museum of Flight here in Seattle last weekend to a packed crowd of 276 people. Thank you for your help, it paid off! Several veterans came up and commented they thought we did a outstanding job. One question for this group, If the S-2 Officer was going to give instructions on Escape and Evasion in the event of being shot down, where would a crew go in 1943 if shot down over Germany? What type of instructions would have been given out? Thank you. Greg Pierce President, 8th AFHS - WA E-mail gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 02:21:02 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 21:21:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Old Iron Pants" Message-ID: <10e.16afe111.2aa5687e@aol.com> --part1_10e.16afe111.2aa5687e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, I looked Gen. "Iron Pants" LeMay on the web and find out that he was called that because he flew so many American combat missions. AAHM Gallery Tour - The Leaders Exhibit "Iron Pants" LeMay --part1_10e.16afe111.2aa5687e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, I looked Gen. "Iron Pants" LeMay on the web and find out that he was called that because he flew so many American combat missions. AAHM Gallery Tour - The Leaders Exhibit "Iron Pants" LeMay --part1_10e.16afe111.2aa5687e_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 18:15:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang In-Reply-To: <3D725359.5ED5E9B8@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20020903171501.91175.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> I've posted this before, but since we have so many new members, maybe it is time again. Sorry the formatting is off a bit. SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft Bale out To take to one's parachute Bind, A People who obstruct one Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair Bogus Sham, spurious Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" Brolly Parachute Browned off, To be "Fed up" Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings Bus driver A bomber pilot Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" Completely Cheesed No hope at all Cope To accomplish, to deal with Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft Dog fight Aerial scrap Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything Drink, In the To come down into the sea Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly Duff gen Dud information Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft Erk, An A beginner in any job Fan The propeller Flak Anti-aircraft fire Flap A disturbance, general excitement Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever George The automatic pilot Get Cracking Get going Gong, To collect a To get a medal Greenhouse Cockpit cover Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to hop over the hedges Hurryback A Hurricane fighter Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of aircraft Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy fishing fleets in the North and Irish Seas Kite An aeroplane Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, inflated if wearer falls into sea Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing Office Cockpit of aircraft Organize To "win" a wanted article Pack up Cease to function Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy Play pussy Hide in the clouds Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target Pukka gen Accurate information Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire Quickie Short for above Rang the bell Got good results Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey Landing", "A ropey type", "A ropey evening", etc Screamed downhill Executed a power dive Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's own prowess Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand Snake about Operational aerobatics Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft spinning out of control into the ground Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons Flying slowly over an area Patrolling Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to ground training Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or rear aircraft of a formation Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready Touch bottom Crash Toys A great deal of training equipment is termed toys Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into battle Type Classification - usually referring to people Good, Bad, Ropey, Poor type View RAF personnel always take a "view" of things Good view, Poor view, Dim view, Long distance view, Lean view, Outside view, "Ropey" view Wizard Really first class, superlative, attractive, ingenious __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 18:29:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:29:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327315@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Hi list, I was watching the History Channel yesterday and saw a brief history of the gas mask. Today's version has device that allows the wearer to speak in a normal voice and be heard. That got me to wondering, when you were on oxygen and for whatever reason were not on the intercom, could you talk to each other and be heard? Or did you have to remove the mask? Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 00:17:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:17:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327315@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: In order to be of service, the oxygen mask had to fit tightly around the face. Even a two-day growth of peachfuzz made it leak a bit, so that when the mask was on loosely, attempts at vocal communication were thwarted at best, further made difficult by the roar of four engines. Best solution was to get heads together and SHOUT. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 02:22:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:22:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks Message-ID: <19b.7fd82e1.2aa6ba52@aol.com> Dave, On our crew we did all of our talking above 10,000 feet or so on the Unicom. We wore throat mikes and I don't recall any trouble hearing and understanding each other. The pilots had a push to talk button on the wheel. I suppose the other crew members had a push to talk button on their gun handles. The birds were so noisy that even at low altitude you didn't talk much. If you conversed you had to yell, and be close to someone's ear. There was no girls on the crews so there wasn't much to talk about. even at low altitude. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Sep 3 19:29:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Market Garden In-Reply-To: <3D73D379.5AD46F1A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20020903182933.32138.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com> On September 17th 1944, the 303rd struck Eindoven, Holland, in support of Operation Market Garden. 1. Can anyone tell me what the target was that day? Was if the Phillips plant, German troop concentrations or something else? 2. Were any of you on this mission, and if so (I know this is a stretch), do you know the route to target? 3. Given the ferocity of the Market Garden operation, can anyone tell me why there weren't more missions in support of this operation? Thanks, guys! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 03:58:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:58:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327315@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <001101c253be$ea7dcd80$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Dave We had throat mics two black butonmicrcophones on an elastic (rubberized) strap . You would fit a button on each side of your voice ox (adam's apple) and close the snap on the strap at the back of your neck. Other types of microphone would pick up alot of engine roar especially if you were sitting up in front --nose or cockpit. Needless to say, voices sounded a little strange but intelligible. LeRoy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tooley, Dave" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 12:29 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks > Hi list, > I was watching the History Channel yesterday and saw a brief history of the > gas mask. Today's version has device that allows the wearer to speak in a > normal voice and be heard. That got me to wondering, when you were on > oxygen and for whatever reason were not on the intercom, could you talk to > each other and be heard? Or did you have to remove the mask? > > Dave > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 07:22:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:22:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oxygen masks References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327315@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <3D75A6A1.C2B72699@attglobal.net> You spoke to each other via the intercom. If you had no mask on you spoke to each other as normal, but that was usually below 10,000 feet, BUT you could STILL and most always DID use the intercom via your throat mike. Cheers! "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list, > I was watching the History Channel yesterday and saw a brief history of the > gas mask. Today's version has device that allows the wearer to speak in a > normal voice and be heard. That got me to wondering, when you were on > oxygen and for whatever reason were not on the intercom, could you talk to > each other and be heard? Or did you have to remove the mask? > > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 12:27:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:27:24 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz Message-ID: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> I was quite fascinated by the response to my recent enquiry concerning General LeMay. The general, but not totally unanimous, opinion was that he was not held in much esteem, by the men who served under him. Another General who interests me is Carl A. Spaatz who, on Christmas Eve, 1943 was appointed Commander US Strategic Air Forces in Europe. So, veterans of the 303rd, how was this particular gentleman perceived by you who served under him? Was he held in greater respect, and perhaps admiration, than was Curtis LeMay? Did any of you ever get to see, or meet, General Spaatz? Any anecdotes would be appreciated by this World War II history student (of advanced years, I might add!) Regards Ray Cossey Honorary Member Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Sep 4 18:13:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:13:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> Ray and Theresa, MBE ... General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz was a Lodge Brother of my Dad's and lived near our home in Pennsylvania. As a teenager and also a pilot, I once had a forced landing on the Spaatz farm near Boyertown, Pa. Many years before the war, Major Spaatz flew the famed Army Air Corps "Question Mark" about the country doing aerial refueling. He once brought that plane to the Pottstown Limerick Airport near where we lived, and he let me sit in that plane. After the war my Dad's Lodge gave General Spaatz a testimonial dinner and my Dad and Tooey, old friends, sat together on the dais. At one point my Dad mentioned to Tooey that he had TWO sons in the 8th Air Force AND at the same Base. Tooey told my Dad that he did not know of such, but he knew of a Heller or Hellers who were at the same Base as the Officer who was a dear friend of his daughter, Tatty. He added, that he ONLY knew of the Heller name because it crossed his desk due to brothers being at the same Base. He told my Dad that he did NOT connect the name Heller with his old Lodge Buddy, "Dutch" Heller (my Dad). At the end of one or two missions which I led, he was in the contingent that met our plane after landing. (this was a common occurrence when a Lead plane was in the Wing or Division lead and such higher-ups met the plane). Even at that time I never DARED to mention (or even talk to him) that my Dad was his old Lodge Buddy back in Pennsylvania. I must mention that my Dad's nickname of "Dutch" was simply because Americans never COULD understand how to say "Deutsche" (as in German) and called such people "Dutch" and my Dad, being German, as our entire family is .... was known as "Dutch" Heller. This may not be of interest, Ray, but you asked for any info. To me, "Tooey" Spaatz was a great fellow, but that may just be because I knew him as a kid and also had a nasty experience when my little plane lost its engine and I had to make a forced landing on his Boyertown, Pa., farm. By the way, I mentioned Spaatz' daughter, Tatty. She was once on the cover of Time Magazine and she was also a Red Cross Girl in London. She and "Hoss" Shumake were a very serious pair at one time and she visited our Base once or twice as I recall. She later married a Belgian and lived for years in or near Hounslow Square in London. Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > I was quite fascinated by the response to my recent enquiry concerning > General LeMay. The general, but not totally unanimous, opinion was that he > was not held in much esteem, by the men who served under him. > > Another General who interests me is Carl A. Spaatz who, on Christmas Eve, > 1943 was appointed Commander US Strategic Air Forces in Europe. > > So, veterans of the 303rd, how was this particular gentleman perceived by > you who served under him? Was he held in greater respect, and perhaps > admiration, than was Curtis LeMay? Did any of you ever get to see, or meet, > General Spaatz? Any anecdotes would be appreciated by this World War II > history student (of advanced years, I might add!) > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 02:34:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:34:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Comments about Spaatz Message-ID: <12a.16cde13c.2aa80eb0@aol.com> --part1_12a.16cde13c.2aa80eb0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, This is a true story..when I was OPS Officer of the 358 Sqd...I had my butt chewed out many times because my C.O., Maj. ******** (you might know him), used to go out with Gen. Spaatz's daughter, who was a red cross worker. Gen. Spaatz and Gen. Doolittle would land at the base and come directly to the 358th Sqd. to see my C.O.. Spaatz left his uniform to be cleaned, so this day when Spaatz arrived at the Sqd. to pick up his uniform he opened the door and a Sgt. had on the Gen.s uniform...Spaatz said "Sgt. , you are going to have to grow some so it will fit." Needless to say that Sgt. was quaking in his boots. That particular Sgt. later said that that little episode had made him just about lose 50 pounds...he was lucky. The Gen.'s made a lot of surprise visits at different bases. All for now..cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_12a.16cde13c.2aa80eb0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
This is a true story..when I was OPS Officer of the 358 Sqd...I had my butt chewed out many times because my C.O., Maj. ******** (you might know him), used to go out with Gen. Spaatz's daughter, who was a red cross worker. Gen. Spaatz and Gen. Doolittle would land at the base and come directly to the 358th Sqd. to see my C.O.. Spaatz left his uniform to be cleaned, so this day when Spaatz arrived at the Sqd. to pick up his uniform he opened the door and a Sgt. had on the Gen.s uniform...Spaatz said "Sgt. , you are going to have to grow some so it will fit." Needless to say that Sgt. was quaking in his boots. That particular Sgt. later said that that little episode had made him just about lose 50 pounds...he was lucky. The Gen.'s made a lot of surprise visits at different bases. All for now..cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_12a.16cde13c.2aa80eb0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 07:31:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 02:31:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz Message-ID: <189.d68c61d.2aa8544c@aol.com> Hi WCH, My Wife, Louise, was German. Her maiden name was Schlotterbeck. All through college and in her Army days (She was a Lt. in the Medical Corps) she was known as Dutch. Now I know why. Thank You. I miss her. I just found if you transpose the letters in why you get wyh. Very interesting? Before we were married she told me she wanted to marry someone named Lee so she wouldn't have to write so much when she signed her name. I told her I didn't solve her problem but Rencher was a step in the right direction. She put up with it for some 52 years. Good night Bill. It takes all kinds to make the world go around and you keep it spinning. I appreciate you and often even agree with you. Keep it coming. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 15:36:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:36:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default> Hello to all. My uncle John P. Millek, T/G, 359th.flew with the Lt. Patric H. Brabant Crew, married a lady from Bally.PA. I wonder if my uncle ever knew that Gen.Spatz, came from Boyertown. Uncle John passed away back in 1988, and lived most of his years after the WAR on the West coast. I never has any contact with him since 1960. I attende the dedication at RDG airport, when it was dedicated to Gen..Spatz. I received my first Pilot Training at RDG, 1959. Spent 8 years with the PA. Air Guard at RDG. 148 Ftr.Sqd.Our outfit flew the P-51. But I did not fly with the Guard. I knew some of the Pilots. I did not receive my Lic. till 1977, at age 40, and Com. and Inst. Rating at 44 years of age. My first flying job at 46, and then ATP at 48 years of age. I flew charter out of N47, Pottstown Muni.for 6 years for a Co. that was owned by one of the Pilots that flew P 51's in the Guard, also flew B-17's in the Eigth Air Force.His name was John Basco and N47 was his airport before he sold the airport to the city of Pottstown in 1947.. I flew in and out of Posttstown Limerick also. Last flying a King Air Be 200 in 2001. We would pick up our passengers at Limreick. I attend the fly-in there, which I think is coming up on the 40th. year soon. The fly-in is held the week end, Sunday, after Labor Day. Which I will be attending on the 8th. By the way,I saw my first airplane in Bally, PA. I think I was about 4 or 5 years old. Sorry I made this a little long. Ed. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 18:32:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:32:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz References: <189.d68c61d.2aa8544c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D779513.60CDDD91@attglobal.net> JPR, aka Mr. President ... Few people know that 67% of America's heritage is German. Your wife sure did have a German name ... Schlotterbeck. Good stock. I understand her consideration of not wanting to write a long name. Do you know how you say Hydraulic Pressure Line Problems in German? Hydraulischedruckleitungschwerigkeiten! No wonder your dear wife wanted a name like Lee! But she got R-E-N-C-H-E-R and for 52 years she must have been in 7th Heaven. When I was a Captain for the Lufthansa, I was also a member of the Luftfahrtbundesamt. That is the German FAA. I was an Air Carrier Inspector with them during my years with Lufthansa. Ruth and I will celebrate 56 years in January of 2003. We would have been married long before that, but were married in Manila when she joined me there from California. The reason we were NOT married prior to that time? The great freedom loving country, in the State of California, did NOT ALLOW INTER-RACIAL MARRIAGES until sometime in 1948 or so! She is the niece of the late President Singman Rhee of Korea. Her Mother, my Mother-in-law, nursed President Rhee during his last year on earth, in Honolulu. My Father-in-law, Ruth's Father, performed the wedding ceremony when Rhee married his Austrian wife, Francesca. Our own Eddie Deerfield knew both President Rhee and Francesca, his wife. Ruth's Father died in the Presidential residence in Seoul in 1949 just before we moved to Italy from Manila to take the job of Chief Pilot for the European Division of PAL. By the way, in many of your discourses, I have relearned a lot of what I had forgotten of basic Physics. When I was a kid and had my own little plane, I used to repair it and do the periodic checks on it. I also maintained my 1930 Model A Ford Roadster, with a rumble seat. And NOW I cannot even reapair a PAPER CLIP! Cheers, ol' Buddy. Stay well. WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Hi WCH, > My Wife, Louise, was German. Her maiden name was Schlotterbeck. All > through college and in her Army days (She was a Lt. in the Medical Corps) she > was known as Dutch. Now I know why. Thank You. I miss her. I just found if > you transpose the letters in why you get wyh. Very interesting? > Before we were married she told me she wanted to marry someone named > Lee so she wouldn't have to write so much when she signed her name. I told > her I didn't solve her problem but Rencher was a step in the right direction. > She put up with it for some 52 years. > Good night Bill. It takes all kinds to make the world go around and you > keep it spinning. I appreciate you and often even agree with you. Keep it > coming. > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 20:00:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group In-Reply-To: <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default> Message-ID: <20020905190024.34251.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a link to the 355th FG web site? I looked on the Internet to no avail. Also, can anyone point me in the right direction to purchase the out of print "Steeple Morden Strafers?" I'm helpoing a lady whose late husband was with the 355th. The name is on the tip of my tongue, but who wrote Steeple Morden Strafers? I know he is from Litlington just south of the base. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 18:36:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:36:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default> Message-ID: <3D779632.AE6CD295@attglobal.net> Edward Frank ... FYI ... I knew Johnny Basco who owned the "other" Pottstown Airport. If you flew into Limerick Airport in Pottstown, you may have run across my brother who owned and operated the Heller Aero Service there. He soloed at age 11 (illegal, but he was a natural). I soloed him. It was a week prior to his 12th birthday. He died of cancer at age 59. I flew into the Reading Airport many times as a kid. WCH Edward L Frank wrote: > Hello to all. > My uncle John P. Millek, T/G, 359th.flew with the Lt. Patric H. Brabant > Crew, married a lady from Bally.PA. I wonder if my uncle ever knew that > Gen.Spatz, came from Boyertown. Uncle John passed away back in 1988, and > lived most of his years after the WAR on the West coast. I never has any > contact with him since 1960. > I attende the dedication at RDG airport, when it was dedicated to > Gen..Spatz. I received my first Pilot Training at RDG, 1959. Spent 8 years > with the PA. Air Guard at RDG. 148 Ftr.Sqd.Our outfit flew the P-51. But I > did not fly with the Guard. I knew some of the Pilots. > I did not receive my Lic. till 1977, at age 40, and Com. and Inst. Rating at > 44 years of age. > My first flying job at 46, and then ATP at 48 years of age. > > I flew charter out of N47, Pottstown Muni.for 6 years for a Co. that was > owned by one of the Pilots that flew P 51's in the Guard, also flew B-17's > in the Eigth Air Force.His name was John Basco and N47 was his airport > before he sold the airport to the city of Pottstown in 1947.. I flew in and > out of Posttstown Limerick also. Last flying a King Air Be 200 in 2001. We > would pick up our passengers at Limreick. > I attend the fly-in there, which I think is coming up on the 40th. year > soon. The fly-in is held the week end, Sunday, after Labor Day. Which I will > be attending on the 8th. > By the way,I saw my first airplane in Bally, PA. I think I was about 4 or 5 > years old. Sorry I made this a little long. > Ed. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 20:30:06 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:30:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327320@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Kevin, Went to armyairforces.com and they had no listing for a 355th FG website. They did have data on the group but no association or site. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Pearson [mailto:splasher6@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group Does anyone have a link to the 355th FG web site? I looked on the Internet to no avail. Also, can anyone point me in the right direction to purchase the out of print "Steeple Morden Strafers?" I'm helpoing a lady whose late husband was with the 355th. The name is on the tip of my tongue, but who wrote Steeple Morden Strafers? I know he is from Litlington just south of the base. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 23:12:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:12:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Generals and Leaders References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default> <3D779632.AE6CD295@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002301c25529$533e3100$6401a8c0@desktop1> I've been reading these threads and can't help but think about the leadership qualities that folks admired versus those that they cursed. I believe there are folks on this forum that have minds that quickly sort out the wheat from the chaff both on leaders and followers, so I'll ask a couple of "leading" questions. What qualities do you admire in a leader ? Can you explain the differences between the effectiveness of a well-liked leader versus one that was perhaps not so well-liked ? When the chips were down which would you personally rather line up behind ? No names please- we're talking in general, if you can excuse the pun. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 03:06:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:06:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly plans for the Boeing B17 G Message-ID: <000801c25549$f9687020$d727d618@ToolesComputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a Sterling Models Inc. Kit E11 B17G balsa wood kit I would like = to sell but I do not have the plans so it can be put together... The = span is 39" Scale 3/8" =3D 1'. Does anyone know where I can get the plans to put it together. I also have a (Gillows) B-24D Liberator 1/28 scale. 7/16"=3D1'-0", Wing = Span 123.19 cm, Length 29" (73.66cm) I would like to sell on ebay. = (Kit #2003) It has never been opened, but I need to know what to expect to get for = it. =20 Thanks, Mike ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a Sterling Models Inc. Kit E11 B17G balsa = wood kit=20 I would like to sell but I do not have the plans so it can be put = together...=20 The span is 39" Scale 3/8" =3D 1'.

Does anyone know where I can get the plans to = put it=20 together.

I also have a (Gillows) B-24D Liberator = 1/28 scale.=20 7/16"=3D1'-0", Wing Span 123.19 cm, Length 29" (73.66cm) I = would like=20 to sell on ebay. (Kit #2003)

It has never been opened, but I need to know = what to=20 expect to get for it.

Thanks, Mike

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 03:33:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:33:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <12c.1713ea95.2aa96de6@aol.com>

For the record. Approximately when did crews start using helmets, flak 
jackets and having muffs available for hand warming? I was an original flight 
Eng. and flew my 25 missions and never had the availability to us these 
items. Thank you. Frank Hinds.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 03:54:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:54:56 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <19d.821ec38.2aa97300@aol.com>

For the record. When were the helmets, flak jackets, and muffs put into use? 
I flew my 25 missions without the benefit of these items. I was an original 
member of a crew as flight Eng. but don't recall anyone using these items in 
our sqdn. 358th. At least these were not on our ship "skywolf." 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 04:50:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:50:00 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments
Message-ID: <35.2c62ed79.2aa97fe8@aol.com>

Frank,
I flew a tour as RO between April and November, 1944, in many 359th BS 
planes. 
During that period the availability of helmets varied greatly from plane to 
plane. I only remember finding helmets in a couple of them and they looked 
like GI helmets that had been modified by someone with a hack saw and a ball 
peen hammer to fit over an RO's headset. I found flak vests, sometimes 
several, or parts of them, in most planes. By the time I flew my tour I had 
been in the Army long enough to take things as they came and not ask a lot of 
questions... .
Best Regards, Ol' Bob

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 04:55:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:55:27 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments - Addendum
Message-ID: <159.139d5640.2aa9812f@aol.com>

Frank, The heated muffs showed up after D-Day. Ol'  Bob

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 16:29:46 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:29:46 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <010601c255ba$b3d5b380$091fd63f@default>

Bill, I knew of your brothers operation at Limreick, but did not have any
contact with him, but his son I have talked to a few times back in the 80's.
I have a good buddy that knew you brother, and his son Kenny.
When Johnn Basco was flying in the Guard, he was always checking out a F-51,
as they were called and going out flying.
One time he came down to the Pottstown Muni and did a low pass, rolled on
climb, and went out below the tree line. You could see him after a few
seconds,  climbing right side up. The word got out to his wife later, John,
later told me, not to talk about flying in the F-51, when she was around.
I did not know John when he was in the Guard, he got out in 1952, I was
there in in 1954. But when I went to work for him in 1985, he became a good
buddy of mine. I realy like John. Too bad I only knew him for six years, he
passed away in 1991.
Ed Frank.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 21:12:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:12:48 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments - Addendum
In-Reply-To: <159.139d5640.2aa9812f@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

> Frank, The heated muffs showed up after D-Day. Ol'  Bob
> 
 We were diverted to an RAF base...think it was November sometime...anyway I
bought a pair of RAF Silk Gloves and they were great for use on the Norden
and other stuff.  No fear of frostbite and of course numb fingers were no
good on the bombsight.  Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303 /
360.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep  6 22:58:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:58:27 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
References: <19d.821ec38.2aa97300@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c255f0$882c1ea0$95d04dd1@computer>

Frank:  Can't help with flak suits or muffs.  I flew 25 missions from April
to September l943.  We had GI issue helmets.  Never saw a flak suit or muffs
nor did I know of any crews that had them>  Helmets were a nuisance, having
tendency to slide forward when worn over the headset.

Ed Lamme (bombardier) Strickland crew 427th

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep  7 00:45:41 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:45:41 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Suit & Helmets.
Message-ID: <00ca01c255ff$826e8de0$02827f18@we1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C255C4.D5EE2420
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Flew 14 missions in the 359th between May & July
1943. Had Flak Suits in most of the planes. Never had Helmets that I =
know of then.

Later flew mission in February to June in 1944 with the 359th and always =
had Flak Suits but no helmets in the waist or tail positons that I every =
 saw.
               Bob Rettinhouse

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C255C4.D5EE2420
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Flew 14 missions in the 359th between May &=20
July
1943. Had Flak Suits in most of the planes. =
Never had=20
Helmets that I know of then.

Later flew mission in February to June in 1944 =
with the=20
359th and always had Flak Suits but no helmets in the waist or tail =
positons=20
that I every  saw.
          =
    =20
Bob Rettinhouse

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C255C4.D5EE2420--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep  7 12:41:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:41:52 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>

Hi All

Here's a question for the ex-pilots among you. I understand that the
expression 'tucked-in combat wing' refers to a much tighter formation than
had been originally utilized. What I would like to know is just how much
tighter was it? Did it occupy  a great deal less space than the previously
used larger formations? How effective was it in reducing losses through
Luftwaffe fighter attacks, or did it have the opposite effect?

Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the expression 'Purple Heart
Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take it this was a reference
to a particularly dangerous position in the formation and which resulted in
putting you more at risk of being a casualty.

Thanks, in anticipation of a response

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep  7 16:50:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020907155031.96799.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>

 >
Ray, can't respond to the "purple heart corner"
question but the "coffin corner" was directly under
the tail of the squadron lead ship. Occupied this spot
on a mission to Berlin to drop, of all things,
propaganda.
                   Bill Runnels, bombardier

 Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the
> expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take
> it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the
> formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
> 
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
> 
> 
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep  7 20:10:53 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 12:10:53 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
References: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <3D7A4F3C.C35CE3A4@attglobal.net>

Ray & Theresa, MBE ...

"Purple Heart Corner" was a phrase used to denote the "Tail End Charley"
position. This was when the usual  Squadron complement of 6 planes added a
7th, and this plane flew in the slot behind the second element as though he
was leading a 3rd element. (In fact, in later formations toward the end of the
war, we did use 9 plane Squadron formations and the Tail End Charley in that
case would have been the 10th plane). Such a position WAS a bit easier for
attacking Fighters to come in on the rear.

"Tucked In" was a phrase used to tell pilots to tuck it in and fly CLOSER
formation. There was a time when one would say, "I want your wing in my waist
window!" ... And all this meant was to keep it CLOSE. This WAS effective under
Fighter attack. But, it was also, difficult to do so as to prevent any
collisions, of which there were a few now and then.  (In my later years as a
Lufthansa German Airlines Captain, I worked with most of the pilots against
whom we flew in the Luftwaffe. To a man, they told me that they would AVOID
any CLOSELY flown formation, if they could).  As a Leader of formations, and,
as a Squadron Commander, I was VERY strict on flying CLOSE formation. At the
entrance to my Squadron area there used to be huge sign showing the 360th
planes in GOOD formation, with the mention that "When you see these planes
they will be in GOOD formation!"

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

> Hi All
>
> Here's a question for the ex-pilots among you. I understand that the
> expression 'tucked-in combat wing' refers to a much tighter formation than
> had been originally utilized. What I would like to know is just how much
> tighter was it? Did it occupy  a great deal less space than the previously
> used larger formations? How effective was it in reducing losses through
> Luftwaffe fighter attacks, or did it have the opposite effect?
>
> Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
>
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
>
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep  7 22:01:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:01:48 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID: <124.1642591c.2aabc33c@aol.com>

Ray,
     You have asked a very thought provoking question. I will not be agreed 
with, but I am going to give you an answer. Unlike most of my answers this 
one could be all wet as it is based on my OPINION ONLY and not necessarily 
right. Remember I am very opinionated.
     First a few startling FACTS. One half of our crews were below average. 
One half of our pilots were below average One half of our groups were below 
average. One half of our squadrons were below average. Opinion. we probably 
had more losses of the planes that flew "Tail end Charlies" These would be 
the ones whose position was at the rear of the formation..When I was there 
and we flew 12 (or 13) plane formations correctly the tail end Charlie was 
only some 3 plane lengths behind the squadron lead when we were "tucked in" 
as you called it. To be honest we usually only flew this way on the bomb run 
or when enemy fighters were in the vicinity. It was hard work and the pilot 
flying had to be VERY alert and Never take his eyes off his lead, not even 
for 1/10th of a second. He flew. The "resting" pilot did everything else 
except the Wheel, rudders and throttles.
     Yes, "Tucked in" was much better and safer. It concentrated our fire 
power. We were close enough together that all the planes in the formation 
could fire at any enemy that attacked us even if they were on the opposite 
side of our formation. We had a long line of bomber going to the targets.  
The enemy fighters were not stupid.  They flew along side the line out of 
range and attacked the squadrons that were flying loose or sloppy formation. 
That was safer for them. They often flew passed the 303rd and especially the 
358th and 360th squadrons. Boy will I catch H--- over that one?  We got 
better bomb patterns on the ground so we wouldn't have to back to that one 
again for a while.

     My opinion again. I was not up there where decisions were made. I just 
flew what and where and when they told me. Tail end Charles were not much if 
any more dangerous than any other position. Remember they were always 
shooting at the lead. That is where the Brass was. New crews were 
inexperienced and their ability was an unknown factor.  If they were in the 
front of the formation and could not or would not fly good formation, they 
loused up all the formation behind them. So they put them where no one was 
behind them. Tail end Charlie.  If they were not good crews they were more 
likely not to finish their assigned missions no matter where they were in the 
formation. A significant percentage of our loses were crews on their first 10 
or 12 missions. Not where they were in the formation If you got a direct hit 
in the center section it didn't matter much where you were or how good or bad 
it was just a bad day for you if it wasn't a dud. 
     I flew copilot with many new crews on their first mission to help them 
get started.  You can't believe how different they were.  Of course they were 
all inexperienced but Some were very excellent and truly top quality. Some I 
wondered how they got through cadets.  
     I may get kicked out  of the Bomb Group and off the e-mail for this one

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 02:52:58 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 18:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020908015258.7679.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill Heller mentions " tail end charley ".
Often this position was occupied by a crew from
another squadron who couldn't find his during
assembly. We were instructed to hook-on with someone
if this happened......Bill Runnels, bombardier

 somewhere or other I recall hearing the
> expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I
take
> it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the
> formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
> 
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
> 
> 
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 04:42:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 23:42:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID: 

Ray I got an emergency phone call and had to leave before I answered all your 
questions. How close?  I would say if your position was directly behind your 
lead you should keep your nose just a few like 2 to 5 feet behind your leads 
tail and about 6 to 10 feet below. Never get your nose in front of the back 
of his bomb bay. I f you were over one airplane length behind it would be 
getting a bit loose. If you were flying a wing position tucked in would have 
your wing tip pointed in the area of your leads waist window and about 1/3rd 
of your wing tip over or under the outer 1/3rd of your leads wing tip and be 
about 5 to 10 feet above or below it.  We liked and found it best to keep our 
formations as short as possible front to back and no wider than necessary.
     One time we were returning from a mission. We were flying lead of the 
low low element. which meant our lead was the lead of the low 6 plane 
element.  It appeared his tail gunner was unconscious or asleep. None of us 
had much damage, I inched up close to him.  Bill Sachau, our Bombardier 
opened the astro dome and reached up and grabbed his gun barrels and shook 
them.  The tail gunner awoke with a startled. look on his face.  I'm glad he 
didn't pull the triggers on his guns.  Bill and I did not have this planned. 
He just did it. I kept thinking my vertical tail would get in some prop wash, 
but it never did.  That makes me think propwash goes down faster than I 
thought it would. 
     Good night Ray. I'm sorry I had to cut the first one short.
           Best Wishes.
                Jack

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 08:16:06 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 08:16:06 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
References: 
Message-ID: <000601c25707$b2fc1e10$25e4fc3e@theresa>

President Jack

Many thanks for your usual informative response to a question from 'the
limey'.

I must add that off all the incidents that have been related on this site,
the story about your bombardier, Bill Sachau, reaching up to grab the gun
barrel of the plane flying directly above you, left me with my mouth wide
open! If I didn't know that you are a totally honest man, I would put that
story way up there with the late Pop McGilvray's bombing-with-a-cow story.

If you said it happened that way, then it happened that way, but I hope you
will understand that us mere mortals will find it an incredible story. It
has got me wondering if there are any more, similarly way-out stories yet to
be heard from you 303rders? After Pop's cow and Jack's gun-grabbing story,
just about anything goes. So let's please hear them fellers.........even the
ones that kind of stretch the imagination a bit!

Warmest best wishes

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 14:02:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 06:02:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20020908130243.67902.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>

Close is close but what you describe is hard to
fathom. Sure glad I was not a part of your formation.
I can remember setting under the lead ship and being
able to count the rivets but we were never as close as
you described.......Bill Runnels, bombardier

--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Ray I got an emergency phone call and had to
leave
> before I answered all your 
> questions. How close?  I would say if your
position
> was directly behind your 
> lead you should keep your nose just a few like 2
to
> 5 feet behind your leads 
> tail and about 6 to 10 feet below. Never get your
> nose in front of the back 
> of his bomb bay.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 17:18:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:18:42 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <20020908130243.67902.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7B4022.11302.10B6E15@localhost>

> Close is close but what you describe is hard to
> fathom. Sure glad I was not a part of your formation.
> I can remember setting under the lead ship and being
> able to count the rivets but we were never as close as
> you described.......Bill Runnels, bombardier

On the 16mm movie I have, one of the scenes 
( see  http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaaqueen.JPG  ) 
shows 359thBS "Queen of Hearts" coming VERY close to the plane taking 
the picture.  You can see in the picture, that the #1 engine looks 
significantly bigger than the #2 engine from the angle of perspective 
(the greater the distance between the planes, the more equal the size 
of the 2 engines will appear).  With the knowledge of the actual 
dimensions of the wings and the distance between the 2 engines, the 
ratio of apparent engine size, and a little mathematics, I calculated 
the distance between the cockpit of Queen of Hearts and the person 
taking the picture to be less than 47 feet, which is less than the 
length of the wing!  Later in the movie, the camera pans from a 
horizontal view to an overhead view, and you can see that the wing of 
Queen of Hearts is directly overhead of the plane taking the picture, 
and by just a few feet.
    After I did the math, I was quite impressed by how close the 
planes were.
   However, in most of the movie, the planes were separated by much 
greater distances, presumably because they weren't in enemy 
territory, so they must have tightened up the formation when they got 
close to the target.

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 18:50:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:50:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re Tail-End Charlie
Message-ID: <16.24fd5bec.2aace801@aol.com>

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Re: discussions on location of Tail-End Charlie formation position
See formation diagrahms at:
       http://www.303rdbga.com/formation.html

20 aircraft formation
Tail-end Charlie was the 7th B-17 in the High and Low Squadron
See right side fiew - High & low Squadron 7th B-17 in each Squadron

13 Aircraft Formation (Used after May 1944)
Tail-end Charlie was the 4th B-17 in the high flight (Formation position #7)

Tail End-Charlie was the most exposed position in the formations.

Harry D. Gobrecht

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Re: discussions on location of Tail-End Charlie formation position

See formation diagrahms at:

       http://www.303rdbga.com/formation.html

20 aircraft formation

Tail-end Charlie was the 7th B-17 in the High and Low Squadron

See right side fiew - High & low Squadron 7th B-17 in each Squadron

13 Aircraft Formation (Used after May 1944)

Tail-end Charlie was the 4th B-17 in the high flight (Formation position #7)

Tail End-Charlie was the most exposed position in the formations.

Harry D. Gobrecht

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 19:11:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:11:10 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
Message-ID: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>

Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other skeptics,
     What I have told you is the absolute truth If you chose not to believe 
it that is your chose.  If you read again my message I told you that half the 
pilots were below average. That half the squadrons were below average. I 
don't want to hurt any ones feelings but from my observations I never saw any 
Squadron in any bomb group that flew as good of formation as did the 358th 
and 360th of the 303rd. I know it happened but in my 35 missions I never saw 
one collision in the 303rd where two undamaged B17s bumped each other. We 
didn't do it all the time but at some time in nearly every mission we flew as 
I relayed to you and thought nothing about it 
    The fighter pilots used a wing tip to knock off their buddies stuck drop 
tanks that didn't drop when they were supposed to. The RAF boys dove on V1s. 
put a wing tip of their spitfires or Hurricanes under the wing of the V1 and 
flipped them over to topple the gyro so they would spin in to an unpopulated 
area. You have been to air shows no doubt and seen the Thunderbirds or Blue 
Angles fly as close as we did and one of them is upside down.  Every time you 
get in your car on the freeway or whatever you call them over there Ray you 
drive in closer formation with the cars in the next lane than we are talking 
about and that kid next to you might just started driving yesterday. The 
formation we flew was nothing to us. We did it every day in some outfits. 
Starting in Basic training even before we got to Advanced.
 There we landed and took off in formation in AT-6s.  Remember the 3 best 4 
engine pilots in the 8th Air Force were in the 303rd. Only one of them as far 
as I know was trained as a fighter pilot. 
     If you don;t want you to believe something. One time our copilot opened 
his window, took the napkin his peanut butter sandwich was wrapped in and 
polished Lt. Rufus W.Grishams (our right wing man) left navigation light 
while we were in a steep left turn after bombs away. O yes he was on 3 
engines.
     Best Wishes, 
            Jack 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 14:50:09 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:50:09 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
Message-ID: <000001c25770$80495b40$35e8fc3e@RAY>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,=20

Further to my recent question about the tucked-in combat wing, I have =
been researching the subject further and have now found the following =
description in one of my many World War II reference books. It pretty =
much confirms Jack Rencher's, Bill Heller's and others advice on the =
subject, but goes into a bit more detail.

The relevant text reads as follows:-=20

" In April 1943 'The Tucked-in Combat Wing' was introduced. The extent =
of the tuck-in can be gauged by the fact that the new formation occupied =
26.5 percent of the airspace filled by the original (950 yards x 425 =
yards x 2900ft compared to 2340 yards x 600 yards x 2900ft). This =
phenomenal concentration was made possible by bringing in the trailing =
high and low formations almost to the point where they overlapped the =
leader. Within formations the three-aircraft Vees were stacked in one =
direction; the elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite =
direction. It was by such measures that an incredible degree of =
compression was achieved, and it was with this bristling formation that =
the bombers of the 8th Air Force, spearheaded by the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, =
em=ADbarked upon their deep-penetration raids over Germany.

This, then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943 in its =
attempt to make the strategic bombing philosophy work. By using such a =
grouping of aircraft the 8th AF anticipated the bombers being able to =
fight their way to their objectives and at the same time meet the =
challenge of the Luftwaffe. This attempt failed, at a devastating cost. =
American bomber losses in 1943 reached awesome proportions. Subsequently =
such losses were only to be sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one =
three-month tour in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its =
initial establishment!"

So, can any one please tell me, is the writer correct in stating this =
particular formation innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed =
correct, then why do you think it was such a failure and where, =
precisely, do you think it was a flawed technique?

Thanks to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to =
information-seekers like myself.

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All, =

Further to my =
recent=20
question about the tucked-in combat wing, I have been researching the =
subject=20
further and have now found the following description in one of my many =
World War=20
II reference books. It pretty much confirms Jack Rencher's, Bill =
Heller's and=20
others advice on the subject, but goes into a bit more =
detail.

The relevant =
text reads=20
as follows:- 

" In April =
1943 =91The=20
Tucked-in Combat Wing=92 was introduced. The extent of the tuck-in can =
be gauged=20
by the fact that the new formation occupied 26.5 percent of the airspace =
filled=20
by the original (950 yards x 425 yards x 2900ft compared to 2340 yards x =
600=20
yards x 2900ft). This phenomenal concentration was made possible by =
bringing in=20
the trailing high and low formations almost to the point where they =
overlapped=20
the leader. Within formations the three-aircraft Vees were stacked =
in=20
one=20
direction; the elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite =
direction. It=20
was by such measures that an incredible degree of compression was =
achieved, and=20
it=20
was with=20
this bristling formation that the bombers of the 8th Air Force, =
spearheaded by=20
the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, embarked upon their deep-penetration raids =
over=20
Germany.

This,=20
then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943 in its attempt =
to make=20
the strategic bombing philosophy work. By using such a grouping of =
aircraft the=20
8th AF anticipated the bombers being able to fight their way to their =
objectives=20
and at the same time meet the challenge of the Luftwaffe. This attempt =
failed,=20
at a devastating cost. American bomber losses in 1943 reached awesome=20
proportions. Subsequently=20
such losses were only to be sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one =
three-month=20
tour in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its =
initial=20
establishment!"

So,=20
can any one please tell me, is the writer correct in stating this=20
particular formation innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed =
correct,=20
then why do you think it was such a failure and where, precisely, do you =
think=20
it was a flawed technique?

Thanks=20
to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to information-seekers =
like=20
myself.

Ray=20
Cossey
Norwich,=20
England

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 21:00:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:00:22 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
References: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c25772$75d8dcb0$35e8fc3e@RAY>

President Jack

I believe you........truly I believe you! Your story about the use of the
peanut sandwich wrapper to clean the left navigation light of your right
wing man convinces me that you are telling the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth. All I ask is that you allow me to still read about
such incidents .... with my mouth wide open!

Regards my friend

Ray Cossey

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep  8 23:37:54 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 15:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
In-Reply-To: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020908223754.12241.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack, I flew my missions with the 360th and I concur
in your analysis regarding their formation talents.
Squadron Commander,  Bill Heller would not have
accepted anything less........Bill Runnels

--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other
> skeptics,
>      What I have told you is the absolute truth If
> you chose not to believe 
> it that is your chose.   

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 01:19:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:19:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bill Conklin- Leadership
Message-ID: <12d.16fdee66.2aad432d@aol.com>

To Bill, and all:

Great leaders come along only once in a while. I think one must be born a 
good leader. It is the "just right" mixture of compassion, dedication, and 
assertiveness. You either have it or you don't. I do not believe leadership 
training makes one a good leader. Such training refines and improves what is 
already there. And if there is nothing there to begin with, forget it. There 
is no disputing that General Curtis E. LeMay was a dedicated soldier and 
always got the job done. History shows he was a great general and warrior. As 
a beloved leader he doesn't have that same reputation. I think he was lacking 
somewhat in compassion. My grandfather, Colonel Ford J. Lauer, was a very 
beloved commander. Colonel Lauer was the 303rd BG's first commander. He was 
transferred however before the 303rd left the US for Europe. Colonel Lauer 
commanded the 99th BG of the 15th AF from February through December of 1944. 
I have corresponded with many of the men that served with him. To a man, they 
all considered him to be a very compassionate leader. They also say he was 
the most naturally gifted pilot they ever saw. (That means a lot coming from 
other pilots.) He was almost father-like to a fault. He always referred to 
the men as his "kids." Colonel Lauer never let them fly the tough missions 
without him leading. He made sure as much as he could that he was scheduled 
to lead the rough ones. Perhaps Colonel Lauer was a bit "too caring" of his 
men. Maybe he would have been better if he had just a bit more of "LeMay" in 
him. Perhaps this is the reason he was never able to advance above the rank 
of Colonel. As it was he did his job and cared for his men. Oh well, take 
care all............Ford J. Lauer III

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 04:05:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:05:42 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
Message-ID: <166.137bbb27.2aad6a06@aol.com>

Ray and all,
     Our war changed as it progressed.  In 1943 I was in training.  We had a 
B17 instructor who had completed his 25 missions tell us. " You do not have 
to worry about antiaircraft guns. I have never in my 25 missions seen a plane 
shot down by flak. You must worry about the fighters. All our losses are 
caused by fighters not the flak.
     I flew my first mission in the spring of 1944. I was the copilot on our 
crew.  On our first mission They put an experienced copilot in my seat with 
our crew and put me on as copilot on the old crew. We were on the bomb run 15 
to 30 seconds behind the squadron ahead of us. Before they dropped their 
bombs 7 of the 12 were shot down There was pieces of B17s falling like a hail 
storm. Some on fire some just wings, tails and pieces. Their formation was 
completely scattered.  There were fighters in the area but the 7 that we saw 
go down were all from 88 MM German guns. The fighters did not attack that 
squadron.  The crew I was on panicked and were yelling at each other on the 
Unicom.  The pilot said nothing. I did not know any of them. It was my first 
mission. I figured if we survived the bomb run the fighters would attack us 
as soon as we got out of the barrage of flak. It was thick Finally I decided 
this was no good, I got on the Unicom and Said," All right men, just calm 
down get on your guns and do the job you were trained to do and we will fly 
this bird home." They never said another word and we did fly the bird back to 
Molesworth.

     In 1943 they were flying an 18 plane formation composed of 3 six plane 
elements. It was big and spread out all over the sky. It was not 
maneuverable. If they tried to make a turn They had to keep it shallow so the 
outside planes could keep up and the inside ones wouldn't stall out. If one 
crew in the middle of the formation loused up all the formation behind him 
was scattered too. We changed to a 12 plane formation and flew nearly side by 
side instead of 3 planes out and 3 planes back.
 We had a 3 plane lead, a 3 plane high on the leads right who flew a bit high 
and a 3 plane low on the leads left who flew a bit low and then a low low 3 
plane element that flew directly behind the low element but just a bit lower. 
This formation was much more maneuverable and very shallow from front to back 
WE got the long range fighter escort all the way to the target most of the 
time. Our big problem changed gradually from the fighters to the flak. They 
changed our tour from 25 missions to 30 and then to 35 so our chances of 
finishing did not improve any.  During late 44 and later they had plenty of 
fighters and JETs but they were very short of fuel and good trained 
experienced pilots. They got more and more antiaircraft guns and their 
gunners got very sharp with them.  We got the chin turrets on our G models 
and that sure didn't hurt anything for us.

     I made a mistake about the story polishing Grishams navigation light 
with the wrapper from the peanut butter sandwich so don't believe it. It 
didn't happen.                                     
          It was a Spam sandwich             
     Best Wishes Dear Friend,
                  Jack Rencher

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 04:16:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:16:28 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Disbelievers don't believe
Message-ID: <19e.84958f2.2aad6c8c@aol.com>

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Return-path: 
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:11:10 EDT
Subject: Disbelievers don't believe 
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other skeptics,
     What I have told you is the absolute truth If you chose not to believe 
it that is your chose.  If you read again my message I told you that half the 
pilots were below average. That half the squadrons were below average. I 
don't want to hurt any ones feelings but from my observations I never saw any 
Squadron in any bomb group that flew as good of formation as did the 358th 
and 360th of the 303rd. I know it happened but in my 35 missions I never saw 
one collision in the 303rd where two undamaged B17s bumped each other. We 
didn't do it all the time but at some time in nearly every mission we flew as 
I relayed to you and thought nothing about it 
    The fighter pilots used a wing tip to knock off their buddies stuck drop 
tanks that didn't drop when they were supposed to. The RAF boys dove on V1s. 
put a wing tip of their spitfires or Hurricanes under the wing of the V1 and 
flipped them over to topple the gyro so they would spin in to an unpopulated 
area. You have been to air shows no doubt and seen the Thunderbirds or Blue 
Angles fly as close as we did and one of them is upside down.  Every time you 
get in your car on the freeway or whatever you call them over there Ray you 
drive in closer formation with the cars in the next lane than we are talking 
about and that kid next to you might just started driving yesterday. The 
formation we flew was nothing to us. We did it every day in some outfits. 
Starting in Basic training even before we got to Advanced.
 There we landed and took off in formation in AT-6s.  Remember the 3 best 4 
engine pilots in the 8th Air Force were in the 303rd. Only one of them as far 
as I know was trained as a fighter pilot. 
     If you don;t want you to believe something. One time our copilot opened 
his window, took the napkin his peanut butter sandwich was wrapped in and 
polished Lt. Rufus W.Grishams (our right wing man) left navigation light 
while we were in a steep left turn after bombs away. O yes he was on 3 
engines.
     Best Wishes, 
            Jack 

--part1_19e.84958f2.2aad6c8c_boundary--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 07:19:44 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 23:19:44 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
References: <000001c25770$80495b40$35e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <3D7C3D80.EDBB6E12@attglobal.net>

--------------1611581FCC7DE1B9FED88764
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ray and Theresa, MBE  ...

Having read the treatise, I can only think that too many
armchair generals were doing the figuring. The box
formations we used were set up by LeMay and a contingency of
other officers, to include our own dear Bow Ur Neck ... in
the early days.

I can only say that looking at efficiency AND defenses, the
formation we used was a very good one and the only thing
remained was for the individual pilots to FLY CLOSE
FORMATION both for the effect of bombing and DEFENSE against
the Luftwaffe.

Lastly, no matter WHAT we read and no matter WHO writes it
.... we WON!

Cheers!

Sir William vonv Bsiebsehn

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Further to my recent question about the tucked-in combat
> wing, I have been researching the subject further and have
> now found the following description in one of my many
> World War II reference books. It pretty much confirms Jack
> Rencher's, Bill Heller's and others advice on the subject,
> but goes into a bit more detail.
>
> The relevant text reads as follows:-
>
> " In April 1943 �The Tucked-in Combat Wing� was
> introduced. The extent of the tuck-in can be gauged by the
> fact that the new formation occupied 26.5 percent of the
> airspace filled by the original (950 yards x 425 yards x
> 2900ft compared to 2340 yards x 600 yards x 2900ft). This
> phenomenal concentration was made possible by bringing in
> the trailing high and low formations almost to the point
> where they overlapped the leader. Within formations the
> three-aircraft Vees were stacked in one direction; the
> elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite
> direction. It was by such measures that an incredible
> degree of compression was achieved, and it was with this
> bristling formation that the bombers of the 8th Air Force,
> spearheaded by the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, em?barked upon their
> deep-penetration raids over Germany. = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />This,
> then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943
> in its attempt to make the strategic bombing philosophy
> work. By using such a grouping of aircraft the 8th AF
> anticipated the bombers being able to fight their way to
> their objectives and at the same time meet the challenge
> of the Luftwaffe. This attempt failed, at a devastating
> cost. American bomber losses in 1943 reached awesome
> proportions. Subsequently such losses were only to be
> sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one three-month tour
> in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its
> initial establishment!"So, can any one please tell me, is
> the writer correct in stating this particular formation
> innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed correct,
> then why do you think it was such a failure and where,
> precisely, do you think it was a flawed technique?Thanks
> to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to
> information-seekers like myself.Ray CosseyNorwich, England

--------------1611581FCC7DE1B9FED88764
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ray and Theresa, MBE  ...
Having read the treatise, I can only think that too many armchair generals
were doing the figuring. The box formations we used were set up by LeMay
and a contingency of other officers, to include our own dear Bow Ur Neck
... in the early days.
I can only say that looking at efficiency AND defenses, the formation
we used was a very good one and the only thing remained was for the individual
pilots to FLY CLOSE FORMATION both for the effect of bombing and DEFENSE
against the Luftwaffe.
Lastly, no matter WHAT we read and no matter WHO writes it .... we WON!
Cheers!
Sir William vonv Bsiebsehn

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

Hi
All, 

Further
to my recent question about the tucked-in combat wing, I have been researching
the subject further and have now found the following description in one
of my many World War II reference books. It pretty much confirms Jack Rencher's,
Bill Heller's and others advice on the subject, but goes into a bit more
detail.

The
relevant text reads as follows:- 

"
In April 1943 �The Tucked-in Combat Wing� was introduced. The extent of
the tuck-in can be gauged by the fact that the new formation occupied 26.5
percent of the airspace filled by the original (950 yards x 425 yards x
2900ft compared to 2340 yards x 600 yards x 2900ft). This phenomenal concentration
was made possible by bringing in the trailing high and low formations almost
to the point where they overlapped the leader. Within formations the three-aircraft
Vees were stacked in one
direction; the elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite direction.
It was by such measures that an incredible degree of compression was achieved,
and it was
with this bristling formation that the bombers of the 8th Air Force, spearheaded
by the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, em?barked upon their deep-penetration raids over
Germany.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/>This,
then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943 in its attempt
to make the strategic bombing philosophy work. By using such a grouping
of aircraft the 8th AF anticipated the bombers being able to fight their
way to their objectives and at the same time meet the challenge of the
Luftwaffe. This attempt failed, at a devastating cost. American bomber
losses in 1943 reached awesome proportions. Subsequently
such losses were only to be sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one three-month
tour in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its initial establishment!"So,
can any one please tell me, is the writer correct in stating
this particular formation innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed
correct, then why do you think it was such a failure and where, precisely,
do you think it was a flawed technique?Thanks
to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to information-seekers like
myself.Ray
CosseyNorwich,
England

--------------1611581FCC7DE1B9FED88764--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 16:15:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:15:28 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
In-Reply-To: <166.137bbb27.2aad6a06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7C82D0.4123.D83E2D@localhost>

>      In 1943 they were flying an 18 plane formation composed of 3 six
>      plane 
> elements. It was big and spread out all over the sky. It was not
> maneuverable. If they tried to make a turn They had to keep it shallow
> so the outside planes could keep up and the inside ones wouldn't stall
> out. If one crew in the middle of the formation loused up all the
> formation behind him was scattered too. We changed to a 12 plane
> formation and flew nearly side by side instead of 3 planes out and 3
> planes back.
>  We had a 3 plane lead, a 3 plane high on the leads right who flew a
>  bit high 
> and a 3 plane low on the leads left who flew a bit low and then a low
> low 3 plane element that flew directly behind the low element but just
> a bit lower. This formation was much more maneuverable and very
> shallow from front to back 

Thanks.  I think you may have answered something I've asked questions 
about several times, here and in other mailing lists, but never quite 
got an answer.  What confused me, was that the film "Target for 
Today" described how the turn at the IP was made for the bomb run 
with the old 18-20 plane formation. It suggested that to make the 
turn, because of the problems you discuss, instead of turning as a 
group,  that first the lead element  would turn, then after a delay 
of 20 sec, the low  element would turn, then after another 15 sec, 
the high element would turn.  And it showed how they would proceed to 
the target on converging headings.
See :
http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/ipturn.jpg    
(taken from Target for Today. Target is at upper right, IP at lower 
left. Three tracks denote low, lead, and hi elements.)

 I had been curious whether this proceedure was used later with the 
12-13 plane squadron formations used after D-day.  From what you say, 
it sounds like it was not, but that the 12 planes turned as a unit.  
      However, after D-day, when the 12-13 plane formations were 
used, the 303rd would send up 3 somewhat independent 12-13 plane 
squadron formations, which if I understand correctly, flew loosely 
together as a group, but the high and low squadrons would be up to 
1000' higher or lower than the lead squadron.  If I understand 
correctly, each squadron bombed independently, and I have seen some 
mission maps which suggest that all three squadrons turned at the 
same IP, rather than delaying by 20 and 40 seconds to come in from 
slightly different angles.   I guess my new question is, with the 3 
squadrons separated by 1000'and all flying the same course, was there 
any possibility of bombs dropped from the lead or high squadron 
hitting the low squadron, assuming that all three squadrons were 
following the same heading from the IP to the target?  Or was the 
turn at the IP staggered as described on the Target for today film, 
but staggered by the three 12 plane formations rather than the 3 
flights in the box?
   Hope I explained the question right, it sounds a bit confused.

WE got the long range fighter escort all
> the way to the target most of the time. Our big problem changed
> gradually from the fighters to the flak. They changed our tour from 25
> missions to 30 and then to 35 so our chances of finishing did not
> improve any.  During late 44 and later they had plenty of fighters and
> JETs but they were very short of fuel and good trained experienced
> pilots. They got more and more antiaircraft guns and their gunners got
> very sharp with them.  We got the chin turrets on our G models and
> that sure didn't hurt anything for us.
> 
>      I made a mistake about the story polishing Grishams navigation
>      light 
> with the wrapper from the peanut butter sandwich so don't believe it.
> It didn't happen.                                   
>           It was a Spam sandwich             
>      Best Wishes Dear Friend,
>                   Jack Rencher
> 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 16:43:38 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:43:38 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
Message-ID: <3D7C896A.14155.F20650@localhost>

  I guess this sounds like a dumb question as usual, but it occurred 
to me that after the bombs were dropped, that a turn would be made to 
head home.   Was this turn made immediately after dropping the bombs, 
or did you continue on your run until after the bombs reached the 
ground?  From seeing the bomb damage photos, I assume that you 
continued on till the bombs hit the ground, but if so, was this done 
just for the benefit of getting the pictures, or did it take a while 
to return the plane back from the bombardier to the pilot.
   It just seemed that since the bomb run was when you were most 
vulnerable, it would have been desirable to turn for home as soon as 
possible, and I just wondered if taking the pictures forced you to 
stay in line for the 40 or 50 seconds that it took the bombs to reach 
the ground?

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 19:15:21 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:15:21 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
References: <3D7C82D0.4123.D83E2D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D7CE538.D9EC9E35@attglobal.net>

Having led formations from a Squadron to a Group to a Wing and to a
Division Lead, including Air Force lead, I recall we bombed by GROUP.  Soon
after the IP the Low Group slid forward, the Lead Group slid behind that
and the High Group fell in last FOR THAT BOMBING WING. Immediately after
the Bomb release, the three Groups re-formed into a Wing formation and
proceded home.

At various times there WERE varied formations used and/or practiced. But,
in the main, we bombed as mentioned above. From late Summer through to the
last mission flown, we did it this way.

Cheers!

Bill Jones wrote:

>
> >      In 1943 they were flying an 18 plane formation composed of 3 six
> >      plane
> > elements. It was big and spread out all over the sky. It was not
> > maneuverable. If they tried to make a turn They had to keep it shallow
> > so the outside planes could keep up and the inside ones wouldn't stall
> > out. If one crew in the middle of the formation loused up all the
> > formation behind him was scattered too. We changed to a 12 plane
> > formation and flew nearly side by side instead of 3 planes out and 3
> > planes back.
> >  We had a 3 plane lead, a 3 plane high on the leads right who flew a
> >  bit high
> > and a 3 plane low on the leads left who flew a bit low and then a low
> > low 3 plane element that flew directly behind the low element but just
> > a bit lower. This formation was much more maneuverable and very
> > shallow from front to back
>
> Thanks.  I think you may have answered something I've asked questions
> about several times, here and in other mailing lists, but never quite
> got an answer.  What confused me, was that the film "Target for
> Today" described how the turn at the IP was made for the bomb run
> with the old 18-20 plane formation. It suggested that to make the
> turn, because of the problems you discuss, instead of turning as a
> group,  that first the lead element  would turn, then after a delay
> of 20 sec, the low  element would turn, then after another 15 sec,
> the high element would turn.  And it showed how they would proceed to
> the target on converging headings.
> See :
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/ipturn.jpg
> (taken from Target for Today. Target is at upper right, IP at lower
> left. Three tracks denote low, lead, and hi elements.)
>
>  I had been curious whether this proceedure was used later with the
> 12-13 plane squadron formations used after D-day.  From what you say,
> it sounds like it was not, but that the 12 planes turned as a unit.
>       However, after D-day, when the 12-13 plane formations were
> used, the 303rd would send up 3 somewhat independent 12-13 plane
> squadron formations, which if I understand correctly, flew loosely
> together as a group, but the high and low squadrons would be up to
> 1000' higher or lower than the lead squadron.  If I understand
> correctly, each squadron bombed independently, and I have seen some
> mission maps which suggest that all three squadrons turned at the
> same IP, rather than delaying by 20 and 40 seconds to come in from
> slightly different angles.   I guess my new question is, with the 3
> squadrons separated by 1000'and all flying the same course, was there
> any possibility of bombs dropped from the lead or high squadron
> hitting the low squadron, assuming that all three squadrons were
> following the same heading from the IP to the target?  Or was the
> turn at the IP staggered as described on the Target for today film,
> but staggered by the three 12 plane formations rather than the 3
> flights in the box?
>    Hope I explained the question right, it sounds a bit confused.
>
> WE got the long range fighter escort all
> > the way to the target most of the time. Our big problem changed
> > gradually from the fighters to the flak. They changed our tour from 25
> > missions to 30 and then to 35 so our chances of finishing did not
> > improve any.  During late 44 and later they had plenty of fighters and
> > JETs but they were very short of fuel and good trained experienced
> > pilots. They got more and more antiaircraft guns and their gunners got
> > very sharp with them.  We got the chin turrets on our G models and
> > that sure didn't hurt anything for us.
> >
> >      I made a mistake about the story polishing Grishams navigation
> >      light
> > with the wrapper from the peanut butter sandwich so don't believe it.
> > It didn't happen.
> >           It was a Spam sandwich
> >      Best Wishes Dear Friend,
> >                   Jack Rencher
> >
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 20:33:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 12:33:25 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
References: <3D7C82D0.4123.D83E2D@localhost> <3D7CE538.D9EC9E35@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3D7CF785.F1B6A0CD@attglobal.net>

Re 091115 the message should have read .... "from late Summer of '43  to the
..... "

Cheers!

William Heller wrote:

> Having led formations from a Squadron to a Group to a Wing and to a
> Division Lead, including Air Force lead, I recall we bombed by GROUP.  Soon
> after the IP the Low Group slid forward, the Lead Group slid behind that
> and the High Group fell in last FOR THAT BOMBING WING. Immediately after
> the Bomb release, the three Groups re-formed into a Wing formation and
> proceded home.
>
> At various times there WERE varied formations used and/or practiced. But,
> in the main, we bombed as mentioned above. From late Summer through to the
> last mission flown, we did it this way.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Bill Jones wrote:
>
> >
> > >      In 1943 they were flying an 18 plane formation composed of 3 six
> > >      plane
> > > elements. It was big and spread out all over the sky. It was not
> > > maneuverable. If they tried to make a turn They had to keep it shallow
> > > so the outside planes could keep up and the inside ones wouldn't stall
> > > out. If one crew in the middle of the formation loused up all the
> > > formation behind him was scattered too. We changed to a 12 plane
> > > formation and flew nearly side by side instead of 3 planes out and 3
> > > planes back.
> > >  We had a 3 plane lead, a 3 plane high on the leads right who flew a
> > >  bit high
> > > and a 3 plane low on the leads left who flew a bit low and then a low
> > > low 3 plane element that flew directly behind the low element but just
> > > a bit lower. This formation was much more maneuverable and very
> > > shallow from front to back
> >
> > Thanks.  I think you may have answered something I've asked questions
> > about several times, here and in other mailing lists, but never quite
> > got an answer.  What confused me, was that the film "Target for
> > Today" described how the turn at the IP was made for the bomb run
> > with the old 18-20 plane formation. It suggested that to make the
> > turn, because of the problems you discuss, instead of turning as a
> > group,  that first the lead element  would turn, then after a delay
> > of 20 sec, the low  element would turn, then after another 15 sec,
> > the high element would turn.  And it showed how they would proceed to
> > the target on converging headings.
> > See :
> > http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/ipturn.jpg
> > (taken from Target for Today. Target is at upper right, IP at lower
> > left. Three tracks denote low, lead, and hi elements.)
> >
> >  I had been curious whether this proceedure was used later with the
> > 12-13 plane squadron formations used after D-day.  From what you say,
> > it sounds like it was not, but that the 12 planes turned as a unit.
> >       However, after D-day, when the 12-13 plane formations were
> > used, the 303rd would send up 3 somewhat independent 12-13 plane
> > squadron formations, which if I understand correctly, flew loosely
> > together as a group, but the high and low squadrons would be up to
> > 1000' higher or lower than the lead squadron.  If I understand
> > correctly, each squadron bombed independently, and I have seen some
> > mission maps which suggest that all three squadrons turned at the
> > same IP, rather than delaying by 20 and 40 seconds to come in from
> > slightly different angles.   I guess my new question is, with the 3
> > squadrons separated by 1000'and all flying the same course, was there
> > any possibility of bombs dropped from the lead or high squadron
> > hitting the low squadron, assuming that all three squadrons were
> > following the same heading from the IP to the target?  Or was the
> > turn at the IP staggered as described on the Target for today film,
> > but staggered by the three 12 plane formations rather than the 3
> > flights in the box?
> >    Hope I explained the question right, it sounds a bit confused.
> >
> > WE got the long range fighter escort all
> > > the way to the target most of the time. Our big problem changed
> > > gradually from the fighters to the flak. They changed our tour from 25
> > > missions to 30 and then to 35 so our chances of finishing did not
> > > improve any.  During late 44 and later they had plenty of fighters and
> > > JETs but they were very short of fuel and good trained experienced
> > > pilots. They got more and more antiaircraft guns and their gunners got
> > > very sharp with them.  We got the chin turrets on our G models and
> > > that sure didn't hurt anything for us.
> > >
> > >      I made a mistake about the story polishing Grishams navigation
> > >      light
> > > with the wrapper from the peanut butter sandwich so don't believe it.
> > > It didn't happen.
> > >           It was a Spam sandwich
> > >      Best Wishes Dear Friend,
> > >                   Jack Rencher
> > >
> >
> >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
> >
> >  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> >  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> >

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 20:49:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <3D7C896A.14155.F20650@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020909194931.54587.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill, the bomb run ended with the words "bombs
away". The turn was immediate. Target evaluation
photos were taken later in the day by P-38
reconsisence flights. ..Bill Runnels, bombardier

--- Bill Jones <wejones@megalink.net> wrote:
>   I guess this sounds like a dumb question as
usual,
> but it occurred 
> to me that after the bombs were dropped, that a
turn
> would be made to 
> head home.   Was this turn made immediately after
> dropping the bombs, 
> or did you continue on your run until after the
> bombs reached the 
> ground?  From seeing the bomb damage photos, I
> assume that you 
> continued on till the bombs hit the ground, but
if
> so, was this done 
> just for the benefit of getting the pictures, or
did
> it take a while 
> to return the plane back from the bombardier to
the
> pilot.
>    It just seemed that since the bomb run was
when
> you were most 
> vulnerable, it would have been desirable to turn
for
> home as soon as 
> possible, and I just wondered if taking the
pictures
> forced you to 
> stay in line for the 40 or 50 seconds that it
took
> the bombs to reach 
> the ground?
> 
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine  
> wejones@megalink.net               
>                            
>  Main home page  
http://www.megalink.net/~wejones  
>          
>  WWII/B-17 page  
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
>  
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 21:01:13 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:01:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <3D7C896A.14155.F20650@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020909200113.31693.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Bill Jones  wrote:
> Bill, one more thought. The bomb trail distance from
the aircraft at time of impact all but eliminated the
strike being viewed by the bombardier who was busy
closing the Bombay doors etc. Our tail gunner normally
gave us a report........Bill Runnels, bombardier

  I guess this sounds like a dumb question as usual,
> but it occurred 
> to me that after the bombs were dropped, that a turn
> would be made to 
> head home.  >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine  
> wejones@megalink.net               
>                            
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones  
>          
>  WWII/B-17 page  
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
>  
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 22:34:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:34:12 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <20020909194931.54587.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3D7C896A.14155.F20650@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D7CDB94.17226.2D8C5E@localhost>

> 
> Bill, the bomb run ended with the words "bombs
> away". The turn was immediate. Target evaluation
> photos were taken later in the day by P-38
> reconsisence flights. ..Bill Runnels, bombardier

OK, thanks, re the recon flights, and on the immediate turn.  I have 
just seen so many of the pictures that were taken from the B-17s, 
such as
http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/vegasack.jpg
 that showed the bombs dropping, and some other pictures, such as
http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/kitzingen.jpg 
that showed them exploding on the ground.  These pictures were not 
recon photos, but were obviously taken from the B-17s.  Perhaps those 
showing the explosions were taken from later planes in the formation, 
and showed bombs dropped by an earlier squadron?
   Re the cameras, I have read about there being an automatic camera 
in some of the B-17s  that took a series of pictures after the bombs 
were released.  It was my understanding that this camera was 
activated by the bombardier when he armed the bombs, and it was 
triggered when the bombs were released.  Did you ever use such a 
camera?  If so, where was it located?
    On the formation sheets I have, it indicates that 2 or 3 planes 
in the squadron on each mission carried either a "K-21" or "K-22" 
camera.  I have a picture of a camera, with 3 different lenses, at:
http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17cam.html  
I'm not sure if one of these is the K-21 or K-22 or not.  I've also 
seen pictures of a long 4' long tube mounted in the B-17 radio room 
which had a camera body on top.  Perhaps this was the K-21??

   In any event, from what you say, you didn't wait around, for the 
camera to see where the bombs went, which makes sense, but apparently 
some times, later planes managed to capture pictures of your bombs 
exploding.  

Thanks. 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 22:58:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:58:00 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
Message-ID: <1a0.8502b9a.2aae7368@aol.com>

Bill Jones,
     We used very official Wording for all our messages. The one for the end 
of the Bomb Run was: Bombs Away, Let's get the Hell out of here.  We there 
upon made a very steep turn, Usually to the left as that was where we left 
England and if not to many had to much damage we speeded up to 170 MPH 
indicated.

     Most of the time each group had the same IP. But the actual aiming 
points might be different for each squadron.  We used different altitudes to 
stay out of prop wash and vapor trails. The German gunners also had to change 
the timing on the fuses on their 88s and 105s. Of course we hated to 
inconvenience them but it was hard to get a good visual bomb run in a vapor 
trail.

     We were on a very tight time schedule at the I. P. Maybe down to as 
little as 15 seconds sometimes as I remember, Once in a while or maybe twice 
in a while someone would be early and/or late and a bomb could fall through a 
Squadron on their bomb run below. It happened a few times usually with 
disastrous results.

     Another point of interest.  The 303rd was know as the 303rd We won't 
turn for anybody Bomb Group. Our 358th squadron had left our IP and was on 
our bomb run.  About 5 miles to our right was another squadron at the same 
altitude With their bomb bay doors open. They were converging on us. It was 
obvious they had an aiming point to the left of ours. We knew they would turn 
as we were the 303rd, We won't turn for nobody Bomb group. As they got closer 
we saw the Big red triangles with a C in it and realized they were another 
squadron from the 303rd We won't turn for anybody Bomb Group. Our two 
formations flew through each other at about a 25 degree angle and never had 
one collision. and never broke up either formation. We did get out of 
position just a bit as we dodged up and down and planes passed over and / or 
under us individually within 5 or 10 feet. It was a hairy 40 or so seconds. 
This is a true story too.  Maybe some of you were there?  It was in late 44.
    Hope I answered all your Questions that someone else didn't.  We might 
have difference answers as we see things from different angles and 58 years 
has a habit of changing things a bit to suit our own nightmares.
     Best Wishes,
         Jack Rencher

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 23:40:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:40:12 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <1a0.8502b9a.2aae7368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7CEB0C.15368.69FF58@localhost>

>      Another point of interest.  The 303rd was know as the 303rd We
>      won't 
> turn for anybody Bomb Group. Our 358th squadron had left our IP and
> was on our bomb run.  About 5 miles to our right was another squadron
> at the same altitude With their bomb bay doors open. They were
> converging on us. It was obvious they had an aiming point to the left
> of ours. We knew they would turn as we were the 303rd, We won't turn
> for nobody Bomb group. As they got closer we saw the Big red triangles
> with a C in it and realized they were another squadron from the 303rd
> We won't turn for anybody Bomb Group. Our two formations flew through
> each other at about a 25 degree angle and never had one collision. and
> never broke up either formation. We did get out of position just a bit
> as we dodged up and down and planes passed over and / or under us
> individually within 5 or 10 feet. It was a hairy 40 or so seconds.
>

I read a similar story from a later (March 45) mission.  The account 
I found was from a Capt from another bomb group, who was leading the 
entire division.  Apparently the primary and secondary targets were 
obscured, so they decided to go to another target that requirred a 
180 deg turn at the IP.  It was supposed to be two left turns, with 
enough space so that the paths didn't overlap, but apparently some 
groups made the turn sooner than others, and some groups were off 
course coming into the IP, so they ended up having groups coming at 
each other from opposite directions.  The 303rd accounts made it 
sound like just an ordinary mission, but this Capt from the other 
bomb group was apparently terrified.  I researched the mission at the 
Nat Archives, and it confirmed everything, including the Capt leading 
the division and the near 180 div turn.

   Also have info about another similar head on encounter during 
assembly, where another bomb group strayed into the 303rds area.

   I can't imagine such encounters.  I was in a small plane once when 
I heart ATC warn the pilot to maintain altitude that a 727 was coming 
up toward him, then POP out of the clouds right toward us came the 
air liner.  I couldn't tell if it was aiming above or below us.  It 
passed well under us, but it convinced me that it would be really 
hard for a pilot to know which way to turn in such a situation, 
unless you guys have rules of thumb for who would go up and who goes 
down, etc???  

Thanks for the story.

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep  9 23:48:07 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:48:07 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Timing
Message-ID: <33.2cc4b84e.2aae7f27@aol.com>

Bill Jones,
     I just read all the letters again. Maybe this will help. The 8th air 
force assembled at various places in England. Our Division the 384th the 
379th and the 303rd assembled over a radio buncher beacon that was 19 &1/2 
miles west of the West end of our east west runway. Each group and each 
squadron in each group was assigned a different assembly altitude. WE would 
circle it to the left and get our formation together. Each Group, 3 or 4 
squadrons, was scheduled to leave the beacon at an exact time and be at the 
English coast at a precise time and place. Then we were supposed to be at a 
specific place at the enemy coast in at an exact time and altitude. If every 
thing went as planed and it sometimes did we would now be in a big long line. 
maybe 50 to 100 miles long with a group crossing a given point at their 
assigned altitude every 15 seconds. Our fighters after we got them could 
patrol the line (It took 3 shifts to get us all the way to the targets) When 
we got to the target area each one went to their assigned IP, Flew their Bomb 
run, dropped their bombs and hopefully those of us left got back in our line 
and flew back to England together. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes We went 
back alone. Sometimes we went back with another squadron or group Sometime 2 
or 3 of us went back together. Some times some of us didn't go back. I'm 
sorry.
      Best Wishes,
            Jack

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 00:48:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <3D7CDB94.17226.2D8C5E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020909234857.60361.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com>

There sure could have been cameras in some aircraft
but I never saw or used one. The only cameras that I
knew about was a 16mm operated by the tail gunner in
the lead Squadron B-17 and a still camera or two used
by other crew members in other planes. It would be
possible for the operator of the 16mm to shoot bombs
in the air and also bomb strikes from his angle of
sight. Possibly they could print a single frame or two
from this footage. I am not a camera expert so I don't
know even if this would be possible. Thanks for
sharing the photos. If you do find answers to your
camera questions be sure to share them. Thanks,
                     Bill Runnels

P.S. Please remember that I was there in 1945 and can
speak only to that period. Many things were tried over
the span of the war and the camera policy you spoke
about could have been in effect at an earlier date.

--- Bill Jones  wrote:
> > 
> > Bill, the bomb run ended with the words "bombs
> > away". The turn was immediate. Target
> evaluation
> > photos were taken later in the day by P-38
> > reconsisence flights. ..Bill Runnels, bombardier
> 
   It was my understanding that this
> camera was 
> activated by the bombardier when he armed the bombs,
> and it was 
> triggered when the bombs were released.  Did you
> ever use such a 
> camera?  If so, where was it located?
>     On the formation sheets I have, it indicates
> that 2 or 3 planes 
> in the squadron on each mission carried either a
> "K-21" or "K-22" 
> camera.  I have a picture of a camera, with 3
> different lenses, at:
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17cam.html  
> I'm not sure if one of these is the K-21 or K-22 or
> not.  I've also 
> seen pictures of a long 4' long tube mounted in the
> B-17 radio room 
> which had a camera body on top.  Perhaps this was
> the K-21??
> 
>    In any event, from what you say, you didn't wait
> around, for the 
> camera to see where the bombs went, which makes
> sense, but apparently 
> some times, later planes managed to capture pictures
> of your bombs 
> exploding.  
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine  
> wejones@megalink.net               
>                            
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones  
>          
>  WWII/B-17 page  
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
>  
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 01:09:02 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:09:02 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cameras
Message-ID: <1a5.8233a08.2aae921e@aol.com>

On several missions in 1944 flying in a lead ship as RO I found a huge camera 
installed in the camera well in the center of the radio room with a cable 
running to the radio table and a switch. As I remember it there was a note on 
the table telling me to turn the switch to "ON" at the IP and just let it 
run. I never saw any of the results.
Ol' Bob

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 13:22:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:22:00 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cameras. Etc.
In-Reply-To: <20020909234857.60361.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> 
> There sure could have been cameras in some aircraft
> but I never saw or used one. The only cameras that I
> knew about was a 16mm operated by the tail gunner in
> the lead Squadron B-17 and a still camera or two used
> by other crew members in other planes. It would be
> possible for the operator of the 16mm to shoot bombs
> in the air and also bomb strikes from his angle of
> sight. Possibly they could print a single frame or two
> from this footage. I am not a camera expert so I don't
> know even if this would be possible. Thanks for
> sharing the photos. If you do find answers to your
> camera questions be sure to share them. Thanks,
>                    Bill Runnels
> 
> P.S. Please remember that I was there in 1945 and can
> speak only to that period. Many things were tried over
> the span of the war and the camera policy you spoke
> about could have been in effect at an earlier date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Bill Jones  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bill, the bomb run ended with the words "bombs
>>> away". The turn was immediate. Target
>> evaluation
>>> photos were taken later in the day by P-38
>>> reconsisence flights. ..Bill Runnels, bombardier
>> 
>  It was my understanding that this
>> camera was 
>> activated by the bombardier when he armed the bombs,
>> and it was 
>> triggered when the bombs were released.  Did you
>> ever use such a 
>> camera?  If so, where was it located?
>>     On the formation sheets I have, it indicates
>> that 2 or 3 planes
>> in the squadron on each mission carried either a
>> "K-21" or "K-22"
>> camera.  I have a picture of a camera, with 3
>> different lenses, at:
>> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17cam.html
>> I'm not sure if one of these is the K-21 or K-22 or
>> not.  I've also 
>> seen pictures of a long 4' long tube mounted in the
>> B-17 radio room 
>> which had a camera body on top.  Perhaps this was
>> the K-21??
>> 
>>    In any event, from what you say, you didn't wait
>> around, for the 
>> camera to see where the bombs went, which makes
>> sense, but apparently
>> some times, later planes managed to capture pictures
>> of your bombs 
>> exploding.  
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> 
>>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine
>> wejones@megalink.net
>>                 
>>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>>          
>>  WWII/B-17 page 
>> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>
If memory serves me right at the conclusion of briefing there were several
Fairchild K-20s available for anyone who wanted to lug them along.  We were
encouraged to take as many pictures as possible.  Also there were cameras
installed in the bomb bay that took pix every 3 seconds or so, following the
bomb load to impact.  The camera I took along had a pistol-grip film advance
and was a hefty affair built to take abuse.  Cheers, Good Health...Bob Hand
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com
> 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 08:56:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:56:47 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
References: <20020909194931.54587.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D7DA5BE.D8AA6508@attglobal.net>

We had many K14 cameras on the B17s with which strike photos
were taken.

Cheers!

bill runnels wrote:

> Bill, the bomb run ended with the words "bombs
> away". The turn was immediate. Target evaluation
> photos were taken later in the day by P-38
> reconsisence flights. ..Bill Runnels, bombardier
>
> --- Bill Jones <wejones@megalink.net> wrote:
> >   I guess this sounds like a dumb question as
> usual,
> > but it occurred
> > to me that after the bombs were dropped, that a
> turn
> > would be made to
> > head home.   Was this turn made immediately after
> > dropping the bombs,
> > or did you continue on your run until after the
> > bombs reached the
> > ground?  From seeing the bomb damage photos, I
> > assume that you
> > continued on till the bombs hit the ground, but
> if
> > so, was this done
> > just for the benefit of getting the pictures, or
> did
> > it take a while
> > to return the plane back from the bombardier to
> the
> > pilot.
> >    It just seemed that since the bomb run was
> when
> > you were most
> > vulnerable, it would have been desirable to turn
> for
> > home as soon as
> > possible, and I just wondered if taking the
> pictures
> > forced you to
> > stay in line for the 40 or 50 seconds that it
> took
> > the bombs to reach
> > the ground?
> >
> >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine
> > wejones@megalink.net
> >
> >  Main home page
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> >
> >  WWII/B-17 page
> > http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 17:35:11 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:35:11 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb run
Message-ID: <003201c258e8$08e24a20$1f9a46c6@computer>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C258BE.1F6C0A80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When Kuykendalls crew flew lead, as the RO, I had a camera well in radio =
room and I operated the camera which I recall as a "K-28". Ground =
personnel installed camera and removed it after the mission.
I was too busy, letting bombardier know bomb bay was clear and doors =
shut and then encoding and transmitting the bomb strike report,  to know =
 how or when we ended the bomb run.

Fory Barton
RO for Kuykendall

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C258BE.1F6C0A80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When Kuykendalls crew flew lead, as =
the RO, I=20
had a camera well in radio room and I operated the camera which I recall =
as a=20
"K-28". Ground personnel installed camera and removed it after the=20
mission.
I was too busy, letting bombardier =
know bomb bay=20
was clear and doors shut and then encoding and transmitting the bomb =
strike=20
report,  to know  how or when we ended the bomb =
run.

Fory Barton
RO for =
Kuykendall

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C258BE.1F6C0A80--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 17:45:18 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
In-Reply-To: <3D7DA5BE.D8AA6508@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20020910164518.36103.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

--- William Heller  wrote:
> We had many K14 cameras on the B17s with which
> strike photos
> were taken.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
>  Thanks for the information regarding the K14
cameras. Were they carried in the lead aircraft only?
                  Bill Runnels

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 20:39:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:39:22 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327331@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

List,
For a simple explanation and graphic display of a bomb run go to this
address, then to the 8th paragraph of the article and hit the hyperlink word
maneuver.  

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~hfhm/Equipment/Art_of_Bombing/art_of
_bombing.htm

Dave

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	bill runnels [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] 
Sent:	Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:45 AM
To:	303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject:	Re: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?

--- William Heller  wrote:
> We had many K14 cameras on the B17s with which
> strike photos
> were taken.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
>  Thanks for the information regarding the K14
cameras. Were they carried in the lead aircraft only?
                  Bill Runnels

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 22:44:37 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:44:37 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
References: <20020910164518.36103.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D7E67C4.B0CD29DE@attglobal.net>

No.

WCH

bill runnels wrote:

> --- William Heller  wrote:
> > We had many K14 cameras on the B17s with which
> > strike photos
> > were taken.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> >  Thanks for the information regarding the K14
> cameras. Were they carried in the lead aircraft only?
>                   Bill Runnels
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! - We Remember
> 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
> http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 22:15:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:15:52 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <16e.1382b1e1.2aafbb08@aol.com>

Hi To all:
   I have been reading your posts with great pleasure.  A while back someone 
posted a web site for authentic copies of merchandise related to the 8AF.  I 
believed it was in Great Britain.  If possible, I would appreciate getting 
the address again. 
Thanks for all your help.                                      Brooklyn Bill

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 10 23:13:38 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:13:38 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb run
References: <003201c258e8$08e24a20$1f9a46c6@computer>
Message-ID: <3D7E6E91.A2B16849@attglobal.net>

--------------99EF4A3EECB8E94CCA1919A2
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There has been a lot said about bomb run, bomb release and
turn off target at bomb release. Let us review abit what we
remember. At briefing one of the first things we saw when
they drew the curtain aside was the TARGET for the day AND
the route in and out, to include that portion known as the
bomb run, ie., from IP to bomb release.

Bomb runs were flown  to the East, West, South or North. It
all depended upon what was needed to make a successful
mission. Most bomb runs were planned INTO the ambient wind
at our altitude, which made for a slower bomb run and thus
more accuracy for the lead bombardier. There was no LEFT or
RIGHT turn off the bomb run after bombs away. You turned
according to the PLAN AS LAID DOWN IN BRIEFING!

The route in and out was planned from takeoff to rendezvous
to IP to bomb release to the ROUTE OUT!  There was no
erratic turning off the bomb run after bomb release. The
entire trip was flown in accord with the PLAN which you saw
at briefing. On the way in, though attention was paid to
certain locations known for heavy flak, it was ALSO planned
to go over as many cities and other areas in order to MAKE
THE ENEMY LOSE VALUABLE TIME AND EFFORT!  After all, each
city over which we flew did NOT know if THEY were the
target. The same is true of the route OUT after bomb
release. Many times we were routed OUT so as to fly over
German cities which did not know whether or not we had yet
bombed! This caused workers and people to go into bomb
shelters. Hospitals to gear up for possible needs, Other
various operations to be disrupted because they did NOT know
whether we had bombed YET!

After bomb release it could be noted QUICKLY how the plane
actually "jumped" at the loss of all that weight (the
bombs). Immediately one had to pull off the throttles a wee
bit so as to maintain speed at the proper figure. A GOOD
leader, at this time, would actually slow down a bit to
allow those who were damaged to keep up with the formation.
Also, a GOOD leader would follow the plan as laid down in
briefing and turn off the target as SCHEDULED. A GOOD leader
would make very shallow turns at this time because those
fellows on the INSIDE of the turn would be stalling out to
maintain formation and those on the OUTSIDE of the turn
would be hard put to KEEP UP.

It was true after bomb release, that the plane could be more
manageable, especially if an engine were lost or the plane
experienced other damage. It WAS MUCH LIGHTER IN WEIGHT!

The mission was NOT FINISHED AFTER BOMB RELEASE and there
was NO sense in turning quickly off the bomb run and
scrambling home! There was STILL a strategy to our
operation. (STRATEGIC  Air Command, anyone?)  .... Our route
home was well planned and it was just as dangerous as the
route in. The ENEMY DID NOT KNOW whether we had bombed yet
or not, except those fighters in the immediate area.  The
mission had to be flown according to plan  from TAKEOFF to
LANDING upon mission return.

Nowthen, as to cameras. There WERE certain B17s which had
certain types of cameras from the K14s to other types. SOME
of these, after crossing the enemy coast homebound, would
actually LEAVE the formation, scurry home and fly over their
home Base and DROP the camera film, so it could be seen and
used at post mission critiques. NOT THE DEBRIEFING. Post
mission CRITIQUES!

There was a post mission critique done by most lead crews
using radios on a "conference" system speaking with all the
other leaders so as to consider mistakes, errors and other
items which would make the subsquent missions better. This
was done b y lead crews only.  This is NOT to be mistaken
for those "critiques" which we had now and then where ALL
crews attended and voiced their concerns.

I may have left some things out, but the plethora of words
written on this subject caused me to write this. I was only
there from late Summer of '43 to the end, in June of 1945,
when the 303rd Cadre went to Casablanca. I went with them,
in fact, I piloted one of the B17s from Molesworth to Cases
Air Base in Casablanca.

Cheers!

WCH

Fory Barton wrote:

> When Kuykendalls crew flew lead, as the RO, I had a camera
> well in radio room and I operated the camera which I
> recall as a "K-28". Ground personnel installed camera and
> removed it after the mission.I was too busy, letting
> bombardier know bomb bay was clear and doors shut and then
> encoding and transmitting the bomb strike report,  to
> know  how or when we ended the bomb run. Fory BartonRO for
> Kuykendall

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There has been a lot said about bomb run, bomb release and turn off target
at bomb release. Let us review abit what we remember. At briefing one of
the first things we saw when they drew the curtain aside was the TARGET
for the day AND the route in and out, to include that portion known as
the bomb run, ie., from IP to bomb release.
Bomb runs were flown  to the East, West, South or North. It all
depended upon what was needed to make a successful mission. Most bomb runs
were planned INTO the ambient wind at our altitude, which made for a slower
bomb run and thus more accuracy for the lead bombardier. There was no LEFT
or RIGHT turn off the bomb run after bombs away. You turned according to
the PLAN AS LAID DOWN IN BRIEFING!
The route in and out was planned from takeoff to rendezvous to IP to
bomb release to the ROUTE OUT!  There was no erratic turning off the
bomb run after bomb release. The entire trip was flown in accord with the
PLAN which you saw at briefing. On the way in, though attention was paid
to certain locations known for heavy flak, it was ALSO planned to go over
as many cities and other areas in order to MAKE THE ENEMY LOSE VALUABLE
TIME AND EFFORT!  After all, each city over which we flew did NOT
know if THEY were the target. The same is true of the route OUT after bomb
release. Many times we were routed OUT so as to fly over German cities
which did not know whether or not we had yet bombed! This caused workers
and people to go into bomb shelters. Hospitals to gear up for possible
needs, Other various operations to be disrupted because they did NOT know
whether we had bombed YET!
After bomb release it could be noted QUICKLY how the plane actually
"jumped" at the loss of all that weight (the bombs). Immediately one had
to pull off the throttles a wee bit so as to maintain speed at the proper
figure. A GOOD leader, at this time, would actually slow down a bit to
allow those who were damaged to keep up with the formation. Also, a GOOD
leader would follow the plan as laid down in briefing and turn off the
target as SCHEDULED. A GOOD leader would make very shallow turns at this
time because those fellows on the INSIDE of the turn would be stalling
out to maintain formation and those on the OUTSIDE of the turn would be
hard put to KEEP UP.
It was true after bomb release, that the plane could be more manageable,
especially if an engine were lost or the plane experienced other damage.
It WAS MUCH LIGHTER IN WEIGHT!
The mission was NOT FINISHED AFTER BOMB RELEASE and there was NO sense
in turning quickly off the bomb run and scrambling home! There was STILL
a strategy to our operation. (STRATEGIC  Air Command, anyone?) 
.... Our route home was well planned and it was just as dangerous as the
route in. The ENEMY DID NOT KNOW whether we had bombed yet or not, except
those fighters in the immediate area.  The mission had to be flown
according to plan  from TAKEOFF to LANDING upon mission return.
Nowthen, as to cameras. There WERE certain B17s which had certain types
of cameras from the K14s to other types. SOME of these, after crossing
the enemy coast homebound, would actually LEAVE the formation, scurry home
and fly over their home Base and DROP the camera film, so it could be seen
and used at post mission critiques. NOT THE DEBRIEFING. Post mission CRITIQUES!
There was a post mission critique done by most lead crews using radios
on a "conference" system speaking with all the other leaders so as to consider
mistakes, errors and other items which would make the subsquent missions
better. This was done b y lead crews only.  This is NOT to be mistaken
for those "critiques" which we had now and then where ALL crews attended
and voiced their concerns.
I may have left some things out, but the plethora of words written on
this subject caused me to write this. I was only there from late Summer
of '43 to the end, in June of 1945, when the 303rd Cadre went to Casablanca.
I went with them, in fact, I piloted one of the B17s from Molesworth to
Cases Air Base in Casablanca.
Cheers!
WCH

Fory Barton wrote:

When Kuykendalls
crew flew lead, as the RO, I had a camera well in radio room and I operated
the camera which I recall as a "K-28". Ground personnel installed camera
and removed it after the mission.I was
too busy, letting bombardier know bomb bay was clear and doors shut and
then encoding and transmitting the bomb strike report,  to know 
how or when we ended the bomb run. Fory
BartonRO for Kuykendall

--------------99EF4A3EECB8E94CCA1919A2--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 00:46:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:46:47 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking Me-109 - This day in History
Message-ID: <3D7E21F7.16387.9B9FFD@localhost>

Friends,
A fellow in Germany just emailed me a photo taken from a 303rd 
B-17 showing an Me-109 attacking.  He tells me it is an Me-109. 
 I sure couldn't tell from the photo.  The photo is here:
http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-me109.jpg
I thought you'd like to see it.  Is it identified correctly?

On this day in 1944 (exactly 4 years before I was born) the 
303rd BG flew Mission 239 to Stuttgart, Germany.  Here is some 
info from the CD "The Molesworth Story." 

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 239
10 September 1944
Target: Marshalling Yard at Stuttgart, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 26
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 38 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. M17 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 24,100 & 23,100 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,200 rounds

A large number of Fortresses took off to bomb the Daimler-Benz 
motor transport works at Sindelfinger, Germany. Bad weather 
4/10 low clouds with bases at 3,000 ft. and tops at 8,000 ft. 
obscured the primary target, so the secondary target at 
Stuttgart was bombed visually. Twenty-six 303rd BG(H) B-17s 
dropped 312 500-lb. G.P. M17 incendiary bombs from 24,100 and 
23,100 ft. Good hits were seen in various populated parts of 
the city. Fires and smoke up to 16,000 ft. were observed.  

A few crews reported German jets between the French coast and 
Amiens, and just before the target. One crew saw three ME-109s 
about 1,000-ft. below the formation in the target area. There 
were no attacks, however, on 303rd BG(H) formation. Good 
fighter support was provided by 135 P-51s. Moderate flak with 
some very accurate bursts was seen in the target area. Meager 
and inaccurate flak was encountered in the Karlsruhe- 
Germersheim-Landau areas. Seven B-17s sustained major and nine, 
minor damage. Chaff seemed to have had some beneficial effect. 
All aircraft returned safely to Molesworth.  

Spider Smith was on this raid.  Was anyone else?

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 04:40:33 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:40:33 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?
References: <20020910164518.36103.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002001c25944$fc3560c0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

I choose this entry to reply, but Bill Heller said it right in his longer
disortation. The lead navigators had the total route laid out on their G
chaarts, pilotage maps and radar charts. After the bombs away there could
have been a turn to another point away fron the target, into an area free
from flak fire and then another turn to to get back on the inbound route
from the Belgium coast or some where near Denmark to return home. These
routes were laid out on flak charts showing the heaviest concentration of
batteries, so the formations were lead between boundaries of ack ack
emplacements. to the coast and back to the coast of England. It was the
navigator's job to give the headings and course changes to avoid these
danger areas and the lead pilots could bring their formations back to base.
Even stragglers tagging along couldfollowthe route and be safely lead thru
these corridors. The unpredictable moveable  flak guns could louse up the
safety of the return trip because Jerry was clever at moving these guns alng
on barges  and on railroad cars.
I have some charts (maps) showing showing flak ares and the territory they
would cover and the mission course plotted through the area.
Cameras: I flew from Dec 44 to closing in July 45 and had several cameras in
a well in the radio room. The size I don't recall, what comes to mind is
K-17 for large negatives and a small camera taking about a 8x8 or 10x10
negative for fast contact printing. Crew men were given hand held camera K45
to shoot assigned shots of formations or whateverof interest.
But I would say that tne navigators were pretty damn busy keeping track of
the geographical  location of  mission and making sure we were heading back
on the prescribe course.
LeRoy Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "bill runnels" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] When did bomb run end?

>
> --- William Heller  wrote:
> > We had many K14 cameras on the B17s with which
> > strike photos
> > were taken.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> >  Thanks for the information regarding the K14
> cameras. Were they carried in the lead aircraft only?
>                   Bill Runnels
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! - We Remember
> 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
> http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 14:54:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking Me-109 - This day in History
In-Reply-To: <3D7E21F7.16387.9B9FFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020911135440.13183.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com>

Sure has the silhouette of a ME-109....Bill Runnels

--- Gary Moncur  wrote:
> Friends,
> A fellow in Germany just emailed me a photo taken
> from a 303rd 
> B-17 showing an Me-109 attacking.  He tells me it is
> an Me-109. 
>  I sure couldn't tell from the photo.  The photo is
> here:
> http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-me109.jpg
> I thought you'd like to see it.  Is it identified
> correctly?
> 
>  

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 19:42:08 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking Me-109 - This day in History
In-Reply-To: <3D7E21F7.16387.9B9FFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020911184208.14746.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Gary:  The dihedral of the wing looks about correct,
but that's all I can tell.  I blew the pic up 500%,
but it is still hard to be sure.  At first glance I
thought it was a Hurricane or a YAK-9.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 19:43:53 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:43:53 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking Me-109 - This day in History
References: <20020911135440.13183.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D7F8EE9.994322DB@attglobal.net>

BR ...

Yes it does, and there is no radiator beneath the wing near
the fuselage.

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

bill runnels wrote:

> Sure has the silhouette of a ME-109....Bill Runnels
>
> --- Gary Moncur  wrote:
> > Friends,
> > A fellow in Germany just emailed me a photo taken
> > from a 303rd
> > B-17 showing an Me-109 attacking.  He tells me it is
> > an Me-109.
> >  I sure couldn't tell from the photo.  The photo is
> > here:
> > http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-me109.jpg
> > I thought you'd like to see it.  Is it identified
> > correctly?
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! - We Remember
> 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
> http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 20:24:15 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:24:15 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
Message-ID: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY>

I read recently that the standard specifications for the B-17G state that
its 'rate of climb'
was such that it would take 37 minutes to reach an altitude of 20,000 feet.
It adds no
qualification to these figures, as to what the aircraft's weight might be in
achieving this
rate of climb?

My question is what bomb-load weight would it  likely  be carrying in
order to achieve this rate of climb? I understand that the weight of a
bomb-load could vary greatly, perhaps by several thousands of pounds and
that this would have a great effect on the aircraft's rate of climb. The
bomb load carried
would, I presume, depend on length of mission, target-type,  etc.

I believe the B-17G's 'empty weight' was of the order of 36,000lbs and that
the 'normal load weight' was around 55,000 lbs and that it had a 'maximum
normal load' weight of no less than 72,000 lbs! (Just over 32 tons).

Perhaps some of you ground-crew guys, who were involved in loading these
babies with bombs, can recall the sort of  bomb-loads carried on various
types of raids. Oh, incidentally, did any of you ever chalk/paint comments
on the bomb casings?  If so, do you remember any of the more humorous ones?
I've always been amused by the ones directly personally at Adolf Hitler!

Thanks

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 20:34:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aint Turning for No Other Bomb Group
In-Reply-To: <3D7CEB0C.15368.69FF58@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020911193431.38220.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill:  Your story about knifing through another 303rd
BS while on the bomb run reminded me of this story
written by Willard (Hap) Reece with the 457th BG. 
Please forgive me if I've posted this before.
Kevin

Shuffling the Deck

Whenever a large number of planes are attempting to
form up over England in bad weather there is always
the possibility of a collision. Often there were low
thin clouds that obscured or limited visibility to
less than a mile at specific altitudes. Each group
commander would attempt to get his group above this
haze layer by climbing as quickly as possible. 
It was on one of those hazy, cloudy days, that, while
forming up, we suddenly found ourselves face to face
with another bomb group and in seconds we were
fighting madly with the planes controls to avoid a
multi mid-air collision. When two groups (usually 64
planes) come together on a collision course we called
it "shuffling-the-deck". 
This dreaded event almost always resulted in one or
more collisions of aircraft and the death of many
flyers. And it usually occurred at lower altitudes
which did not allow sufficient time for men to escape
a falling, badly damaged plane. 
 On this occasion, while we were still climbing to our
prescribed altitude, our leader spotted the other
group coming toward us through the mist perhaps two
miles away and at almost the same altitude. A command
came from the lead (or someone on the radio) to
"Spread out", "Spread out". In seconds every plane in
the group swerved, dived or climbed at the same
instant. Those on the upper tier climbed as steeply as
they could, those in the lower tier dived sharply and
those in between turned left or right as the space
allowed. It was rather like "every man for himself"
with each crew trying to find a spot in the sky where
he would be safe from these giant objects filled with
his fellow flyers. The other group which was
approaching us performed almost the same maneuvers and
for the next minute the sky was filled with 64 planes
attempting to avoid collision. 
Of course the pilot cannot see all areas around the
plane and relies heavily on his crew at these times to
tell him of approaching planes from above or below and
a good crew will keep the pilot informed. On this
occasion the intercom was filled with excited vocal
directions of "plane coming in on port side",
below..CLIMB!", "plane close at two o'clock", and on
and on. 
In less than a minute it was all over and a check of
the sky and a voice relay from the crew indicated
that, as far as we could tell, no one had collided. It
was a welcome miracle that none of the planes was even
damaged. 
My heartbeat must have hit 150 in that short time and
I'm sure the rest of the crew felt about the way I
felt. The plane we were flying that day responded
beautifully to the sudden change of power and the
unusual maneuvers to which I had forced it in those
few seconds. This was one of the many reasons we loved
flying the B-17. Now, out of danger, we just flew
straight and level for a few minutes while we tried to
compose ourselves. I looked at Jim in the copilots
seat and his usual smiling face was almost
white.....he made a gesture with his hand of wiping
his brow and then proceeded to call for a crew check
on the intercom. 
The violent wrenching of the plane during these
maneuvers had sent some of the crew flying violently
around in the nose and the waist compartment but no
one was the worse for wear and I'm sure they were all
thankful that a few bruises were the worst injury they
would sustain after shuffling-the-deck. A further
check confirmed that the closest encounter occurred
within the low squadron but all had survived. 
 Our group leader again began shooting flares so that
we could identify him through the misty atmosphere and
slowly but evenly we resumed our positions in group
formation. 
We were now on our way to the target. All this and we
had not yet left England. We would be late for our
rendezvous with the bomber stream but we had survived
one of the worst experiences for a flight crew. To go
down over your own field as a result of a mid air
collision or to be the cause of a crash or death of
another crew from your own group was about as bad as
anything you might experience while flying. 

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 21:09:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:09:47 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <3D7FA30A.F61716DC@attglobal.net>

R & T, MBE  ...

The original B17 was designed for a 2,200 pound bomb load! We NEVER carried
that SMALL a load. We even put two 2000 pounders under our wings on some
missions. The usual load was around 6000 pounds. And do not forget, FUEL was
one of the greatest weights we carried. I sometimes wince (even now) when I
realize I used to depart Anchorage Alaska bound for Hong Kong, in a DC-10-30,
and would have a flight plan which showed we would burn TEN TONS of fuel
enroute! I used to look out at the engines and realize that they were burning
FIFTY GALLONS PER MINUTE!  I still believe people do NOT consider how much
weight the fuel adds to any given airplane. However, it is burned out quickly.
On the flight from ANC to HKG I would burn off 15 tons of fuel in the first
hour! The overall average was TEN TONS PER HOUR!  (burns less as you get
lighter).

Once, when leaving Shannon Ireland on an airline flight, a passenger asked me
as he watched everyone climb on board with huge packages they had bought in the
duty free shop, "Doesn't it bother you, Captain, that there is so much extra
weight going on here?"

I looked at him and said, "Sir, that is like a fly walking on an I-Beam!"

FUEL is the heaviest thing carried!

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

> I read recently that the standard specifications for the B-17G state that
> its 'rate of climb'
> was such that it would take 37 minutes to reach an altitude of 20,000 feet.
> It adds no
> qualification to these figures, as to what the aircraft's weight might be in
> achieving this
> rate of climb?
>
> My question is what bomb-load weight would it  likely  be carrying in
> order to achieve this rate of climb? I understand that the weight of a
> bomb-load could vary greatly, perhaps by several thousands of pounds and
> that this would have a great effect on the aircraft's rate of climb. The
> bomb load carried
> would, I presume, depend on length of mission, target-type,  etc.
>
> I believe the B-17G's 'empty weight' was of the order of 36,000lbs and that
> the 'normal load weight' was around 55,000 lbs and that it had a 'maximum
> normal load' weight of no less than 72,000 lbs! (Just over 32 tons).
>
> Perhaps some of you ground-crew guys, who were involved in loading these
> babies with bombs, can recall the sort of  bomb-loads carried on various
> types of raids. Oh, incidentally, did any of you ever chalk/paint comments
> on the bomb casings?  If so, do you remember any of the more humorous ones?
> I've always been amused by the ones directly personally at Adolf Hitler!
>
> Thanks
>
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 11 21:10:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:10:45 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
In-Reply-To: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <3D7F6B05.30355.1EEE2D1@localhost>

> I read recently that the standard specifications for the B-17G state
> that its 'rate of climb' was such that it would take 37 minutes to
> reach an altitude of 20,000 feet. It adds no qualification to these
> figures, as to what the aircraft's weight might be in achieving this
> rate of climb?
> 
> My question is what bomb-load weight would it  likely  be carrying in
> order to achieve this rate of climb?

The following may help.

http://wejones.ftdata.com/clmbcht1.jpg 
http://wejones.ftdata.com/clmbcht2.jpg 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 00:33:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
In-Reply-To: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020911233325.58852.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
The bomb load was for the most part a constant on
every trip. On the B-17G we could carry 24 (100lb
bombs)or, 16 (250lb bombs)or 12 (500lb bombs). The
space in the bombay was the limiting factor not the
distance etc. The maximum load was 5,000lbs. I guess
they figured the purpose for the trip was to bomb so
if they needed to reduce weight they cut back on the
fuel supply and that was of concern on the longer
trips. The tanks held 2,780 gal. of fuel and that was
heavy. The target did dictate the type of bombs
carried. Not all aircraft in the group would carry the
same pay load. As an example, on mission #352, April
5, 1945 the 303rd dropped 206 500lb G.P., 6 500lb.
S.A.P., 144 500lb M17 incendiary bombs and 10 units of
leaflets..........Bill Runnels, bombardier

>  . The
> bomb load carried
> would, I presume, depend on length of mission,
> target-type,  etc.
> 
> I believe the B-17G's 'empty weight' was of the
> order of 36,000lbs and that
> the 'normal load weight' was around 55,000 lbs and
> that it had a 'maximum
> normal load' weight of no less than 72,000 lbs!
> (Just over 32 tons).
> 
> > 

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 02:07:30 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
In-Reply-To: <20020911233325.58852.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020912010730.89973.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>

Correction: the maximum bomb load was 6,000lbs not
5,000. I also failed to give credit to Harry Gobrecht
for the bomb drop mix data on April 5, 1945. The info
was taken from his terrific book "Might In
Flight"..........Bill Runnels

--- bill runnels  wrote:
> 
>   
> > 
> The bomb load was for the most part a constant on
> every trip. On the B-17G we could carry 24 (100lb
> bombs)or, 16 (250lb bombs)or 12 (500lb bombs). The
> space in the bombay was the limiting factor not the
> distance etc. The maximum load was 5,000lbs. I guess
> they figured the purpose for the trip was to bomb so
> if they needed to reduce weight they cut back on the
> fuel supply and that was of concern on the longer
> trips. The tanks held 2,780 gal. of fuel and that
> was
> heavy. The target did dictate the type of bombs
> carried. Not all aircraft in the group would carry
> the
> same pay load. As an example, on mission #352, April
> 5, 1945 the 303rd dropped 206 500lb G.P., 6 500lb.
> S.A.P., 144 500lb M17 incendiary bombs and 10 units
> of
> leaflets..........Bill Runnels, bombardier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >  . The
> > bomb load carried
> > would, I presume, depend on length of mission,
> > target-type,  etc.
> > 
> > I believe the B-17G's 'empty weight' was of the
> > order of 36,000lbs and that
> > the 'normal load weight' was around 55,000 lbs and
> > that it had a 'maximum
> > normal load' weight of no less than 72,000 lbs!
> > (Just over 32 tons).
> > 
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! - We Remember
> 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
> http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute
> 

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 19:41:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Hollifield)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Attack Photo
Message-ID: <20020912184116.88303.qmail@web20604.mail.yahoo.com>

All,
Thanks for sharing the attack photo with the triangle C in the pic.  It is
curious to me that all the movies, books, and documentaries that I have seen
seem to have the same B-17 film footage and photos.  Granted, there was a
finite amount of filming and photography performed.  However, I feel certain
that miles of footage was taken along with thousands of photos.  Seems this
stuff would be declassified and available by now.  Are the newest
documenataries unconcerned with providing more film and pictures from WWII? 
Or, is the stack of materials really that limited?

Also, I was very impressed by the History Channels presentation of "WWII in
Color".  For those of us born after the war, the Nazis and the war in general
all seemed like some black and white time in ancient history.  This color
footage literally made chills go up my spine.  The simple fact the films were
in color made me feel like the 1940's were a heck of a lot closer to the
present.  It brought home that when my dad walked out that door and headed for
war, it was a day that looked, felt, and smelled just like it does today when
we walk out the door.

Regards,

Steve Hollifield

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 16:07:21 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:07:21 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY> <3D7FA30A.F61716DC@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <008501c25a6e$5a689160$301fd63f@default>

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

Bill, was it ever considered, by any of the Crew, to take off, Over GW. but
with-in CG, for a long mission, that is when temperature condition were
right?
Ed.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 18:53:41 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:53:41 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack's gone.
Message-ID: 

Hi Gang,
     I will not be available until Monday Sept. 16. 2002. You may leave me a 
message But I can't answer it until Monday.
       Jack Rencher

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 12 22:15:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:15:57 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack's gone.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> Hi Gang,
>    I will not be available until Monday Sept. 16. 2002. You may leave me a
> message But I can't answer it until Monday.
>      Jack Rencher
> 
Jack:  Wherever you're bound and whatever you're up to, enjoy by all
means....and know that we appreciate your informative answers and comments
to the letter.  Cheers, Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 13 07:58:36 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:58:36 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY> <3D7FA30A.F61716DC@attglobal.net> <008501c25a6e$5a689160$301fd63f@default>
Message-ID: <3D818C9C.FF899221@attglobal.net>

ELF ...

I do not recall any crew considering the queries you offer ... they figured
those things were figured for them by "others" and they merely took off.
However, we always knew when we had a big bomb load and a big fuel load and
oft times we would consider the use of cracking flaps an RCH at the takeoff
end of the runway to get airborne and rid of ground effect. I did this once
with a General in the copilot seat on a lead mission .. as we were a bit down
the runway to begin with ... as most leads were. So I pointed to the flap
toggle switch and said, "General, when we get to the other end and I shout
FLAPS! I want you to toggle this switch just an RCH."  He looked at me and
said, (whatever my rank was)  "..... We do not do that!"  I said, "General,
Sir, I am in command of this fuckin' bucket and if I ask for flaps PLEASE give
them to me IF you want to get off the ground!"

He looked at me and said, "Yes SIR!" And for the rest of the mission we got
along very well. AND he DID give me flaps when I shouted it.

Nowthen, I do know that any pilot who was intelligent enough to care about CG
often looked around his plane, especially in the tail position for EXTRA BOXES
OF AMMO!  Now THOSE were heavy and being in the very tail  of the plane, could
cause a CG problem.

Frankly, I do not believe many pilots cared about either the CG or the LOAD as
they figured that "someone" had that all figured out for them. And, I believe
"someone" did.

Cheers!

WCH

Edward L Frank wrote:

> Sir William von Bsiebsehn
>
> Bill, was it ever considered, by any of the Crew, to take off, Over GW. but
> with-in CG, for a long mission, that is when temperature condition were
> right?
> Ed.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 13 14:40:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:40:17 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
In-Reply-To: <3D818C9C.FF899221@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3D81B281.9988.494EF1@localhost>

> Nowthen, I do know that any pilot who was intelligent enough to care
> about CG often looked around his plane, especially in the tail
> position for EXTRA BOXES OF AMMO!  Now THOSE were heavy and being in
> the very tail  of the plane, could cause a CG problem.
> 
> Frankly, I do not believe many pilots cared about either the CG or the
> LOAD as they figured that "someone" had that all figured out for them.
> And, I believe "someone" did.

Assuming that by CG you're refering to center of gravity, 
I don't know if this was done in the combat organizations, but I have 
the paperwork that was involved when my father flew back a B-17 from 
Wales to Iceland to Greenland to New Hampshire to Conn.
    When he took off from GB, there was a weight ballance form that 
was filled out designating where all the passengers must sit.  See:

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wtbal.html  

I always thought that this was strange that they would worry about 
weight in a plane that wasn't full of bombs, but I guess when a plane 
is full of bombs that the weight of the people is pretty much 
negligable compared to the bombs, but in an empty plane it must make 
a difference.
   Anyway, apparently someone WAS thinking about center of gravity.

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 13 18:14:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:14:25 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <3D81B281.9988.494EF1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D821CF1.159741E6@attglobal.net>

BJ ...

Ou bomb loads did not affect CG much, if at all. That load was located
directly over the CG area and had little "balance" effect. WEIGHT, yes. But
balance, no.

When carrying loads which can be distributed about the plane, attention
must be paid to CG. Even back in the old DC3 days of airline travel, I can
recall once, when the only passenger on an AA plane from Newark to
Philadelphia, the Stewardess asked me to sit far forward instead of the
tail where I had sat down.

I am certain "someone" considered a so-called "weight and balance" anent
our combat flights, but it was not something that each pilot concerned
himself with during combat days. We had a tremendous amount of belief that
our superiors had all bases covered, as it were.

Cheers!

WCH

Bill Jones wrote:

>
> > Nowthen, I do know that any pilot who was intelligent enough to care
> > about CG often looked around his plane, especially in the tail
> > position for EXTRA BOXES OF AMMO!  Now THOSE were heavy and being in
> > the very tail  of the plane, could cause a CG problem.
> >
> > Frankly, I do not believe many pilots cared about either the CG or the
> > LOAD as they figured that "someone" had that all figured out for them.
> > And, I believe "someone" did.
>
> Assuming that by CG you're refering to center of gravity,
> I don't know if this was done in the combat organizations, but I have
> the paperwork that was involved when my father flew back a B-17 from
> Wales to Iceland to Greenland to New Hampshire to Conn.
>     When he took off from GB, there was a weight ballance form that
> was filled out designating where all the passengers must sit.  See:
>
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wtbal.html
>
> I always thought that this was strange that they would worry about
> weight in a plane that wasn't full of bombs, but I guess when a plane
> is full of bombs that the weight of the people is pretty much
> negligable compared to the bombs, but in an empty plane it must make
> a difference.
>    Anyway, apparently someone WAS thinking about center of gravity.
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 15 21:56:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:56:45 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cherman Translation
Message-ID: <72.2286b686.2ab64e0d@aol.com>

--part1_72.2286b686.2ab64e0d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

WKH: I've had a little French, a little Spanish, a lot of English, but no 
Cherman. Soooo -- How do you translate BSIEBSEHN into English, please?
Old Bob

--part1_72.2286b686.2ab64e0d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

WKH: I've had a little French, a little Spanish, a lot of English, but no Cherman. Soooo -- How do you translate BSIEBSEHN into English, please?

Old Bob

--part1_72.2286b686.2ab64e0d_boundary--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 16 08:54:33 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:54:33 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cherman Translation
References: <72.2286b686.2ab64e0d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D858E39.17E4A722@attglobal.net>

--------------3FE7264CA83E7957F027FB58
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

B17  ...

Cheers!

hans80@aol.com wrote:

> WKH: I've had a little French, a little Spanish, a lot of
> English, but no Cherman. Soooo -- How do you translate
> BSIEBSEHN into English, please?
> Old Bob

--------------3FE7264CA83E7957F027FB58
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

B17  ...
Cheers!
hans80@aol.com wrote:
WKH: I've
had a little French, a little Spanish, a lot of English, but no Cherman.
Soooo -- How do you translate BSIEBSEHN into English, please?

Old Bob

--------------3FE7264CA83E7957F027FB58--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 16 15:41:32 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:41:32 +0200
Subject: [303rd-Talk] von Bsiebzehn
Message-ID: <000701c25d8f$2b213be0$674579c3@default>

DEAR WILLIAM.
THEY ASK YOU FREQUENTLY HOW YOUR NAME WITH ALL THE TITTES SHOULD BE SPELLED
CORRECTLY.
FIRST OF ALL. YOU ARE A LORD (EARL) VON IS ALWAYS ADDED TO THE GERMAN
NOBILITY.
SIEB IS SEVEN ZEHN IS EIGHT,SO WE ARE ALMOST THERE
.
LORD OF THE B 17
KIND REGARDS  HANS REUSINK
MY BEST  WISHES TO ALL AND ESPECIALLY TO LORD VON BSIEBZEHN.
GOOFDBEYE WILLIAM, HANS FROM HOLLAND.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 16 16:13:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:13:28 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327348@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Bill,
Can you explain the terms: RCH and ground effect? 
Thanks!!

Dave

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	William Heller [mailto:wheller@attglobal.net] 
Sent:	Friday, September 13, 2002 1:59 AM
To:	303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject:	Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb

ELF ...

I do not recall any crew considering the queries you offer ... they figured
those things were figured for them by "others" and they merely took off.
However, we always knew when we had a big bomb load and a big fuel load and
oft times we would consider the use of cracking flaps an RCH at the takeoff
end of the runway to get airborne and rid of ground effect. I did this once
with a General in the copilot seat on a lead mission .. as we were a bit
down
the runway to begin with ... as most leads were. So I pointed to the flap
toggle switch and said, "General, when we get to the other end and I shout
FLAPS! I want you to toggle this switch just an RCH."  He looked at me and
said, (whatever my rank was)  "..... We do not do that!"  I said, "General,
Sir, I am in command of this fuckin' bucket and if I ask for flaps PLEASE
give
them to me IF you want to get off the ground!"

He looked at me and said, "Yes SIR!" And for the rest of the mission we got
along very well. AND he DID give me flaps when I shouted it.

Nowthen, I do know that any pilot who was intelligent enough to care about
CG
often looked around his plane, especially in the tail position for EXTRA
BOXES
OF AMMO!  Now THOSE were heavy and being in the very tail  of the plane,
could
cause a CG problem.

Frankly, I do not believe many pilots cared about either the CG or the LOAD
as
they figured that "someone" had that all figured out for them. And, I
believe
"someone" did.

Cheers!

WCH

Edward L Frank wrote:

> Sir William von Bsiebsehn
>
> Bill, was it ever considered, by any of the Crew, to take off, Over GW.
but
> with-in CG, for a long mission, that is when temperature condition were
> right?
> Ed.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 00:52:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:52:45 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 3 Kinds Of 2
Message-ID: <86.2057f718.2ab7c8cd@aol.com>

  Two, to, and too. It is Monday. I just got back. My e-mail is checked and I 
see some questions. The WIND can blow and you can WIND the clock. There are 
two kinds of Ground Effect.
     Air has weight (Mass). Any weight that is at rest. (Not moving) will 
continue not moving unless some Force moves it. Any Mass that is moving will 
continue to move in a straight line at a constant speed unless some force 
stops it or changes it's direction or speed. Any of these actions will take 
force.(energy)  
     Assuming there is no wind, When a B17 sits on the end of the runway it 
is not moving in relation to the air around it. When it is pointed down the 
runway and the throttles are advanced the propellers push the mass of air 
around them to the rear hence an equal force is exerted on the propellers 
pushing them forward. This causes the B17 to accelerate down the runway until 
the drag equals the trust. At that point the speed will remain constant and 
not change until either the thrust is increased or the drag is reduced. There 
are several thing than cause drag. Wind resistance, and friction of the 
wheels and tires on the runway are the two biggies at this point hopefully 
you have flying speed and cause the wings to lift the load off the runway. If 
that happens some of the drag is eliminated when the tires leave the runway 
Sod, Mud, Grass, dirt or ???. The copilot pulls the gear up and that reduces 
drag, Maybe closes the cowl flaps and that reduces drag Soon pulls the wing 
flaps up and that reduces drag. Now the B17 is clean and the drag is reduced. 
 The trust is the same until the copilot reduces power and hence the speed 
again increases until the the drag again equals the trust. This I believe is 
what our learned German Count was correctly calling ground effect. 
     There is another Ground Effect that most all GOOD pilot are aware of but 
until you read this very few if any (except one) know what causes it. If one 
is over water it could very well be called water effect. This ground effect 
is the fact that any engine driven winged aircraft performs better very close 
to the ground than it does just a few feet higher.  Now the secret of the 
other ground effect so you won't anymore get the two types confused. They are 
completely different.
     Again assuming there is no wind. If there is a wind is still works the 
same it just makes a bit more difficult to explain and keep it short? Again, 
The air has mass (weight ). It won't move until some force moves it. The B17 
comes down the runway. It pushes the air out from in front of it. Some goes 
on each side of the B17. Some goes over it. Some tries to go under it but 
there is no room there. The ground (or water) is in the way.  So we get a  
"Pillow" of slightly compressed air in front of the plane that just has not 
had time to get out of its way yet and the faster the plane goes and the 
closer it is to the ground the bigger the pillow becomes. This pillow of air 
is compressed. Therefore it is more dense. Hence The engine puts out more 
power. The propellers are pushing back more weight of air so they make more 
thrust.
 The wings have more lift.  When the plane gets a few feet off the ground the 
air in front of it can escape in all the other places and can go under the 
plane too, letting our Pillow of air mostly escape and the air in front of 
our plane is less dense and we have lost our Ground effect. And know you know 
the other ground effect and will never ever be confused again. 
     My next letter will probably be on CG but this one is too long already. 
There is a lot that even some good pilots don't know about C. G.  and most of 
them will not believe me when I tell them. I won't feel bad as I don't 
believe some of it myself  

     Best Wishes,
       Kan't Count Van Rencher. (Can't spell either)

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 08:59:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:59:17 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] von Bsiebzehn
References: <000701c25d8f$2b213be0$674579c3@default>
Message-ID: <3D86E0D5.4513EFB2@attglobal.net>

Lieber Hans ...

Ja, sieb is seven but zehn is not eight .... siebsehn is SEVENTEEN!  Thus
B-17.

Cheers, from a fellow who used to spend several days a week in Amsterdam when
our airline had its maintenance base there with KLM.

WCH

hans reusink wrote:

> DEAR WILLIAM.
> THEY ASK YOU FREQUENTLY HOW YOUR NAME WITH ALL THE TITTES SHOULD BE SPELLED
> CORRECTLY.
> FIRST OF ALL. YOU ARE A LORD (EARL) VON IS ALWAYS ADDED TO THE GERMAN
> NOBILITY.
> SIEB IS SEVEN ZEHN IS EIGHT,SO WE ARE ALMOST THERE
> .
> LORD OF THE B 17
> KIND REGARDS  HANS REUSINK
> MY BEST  WISHES TO ALL AND ESPECIALLY TO LORD VON BSIEBZEHN.
> GOOFDBEYE WILLIAM, HANS FROM HOLLAND.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 09:03:18 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:03:18 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327348@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <3D86E1C5.DDE90F28@attglobal.net>

DT ...

RCH is a rather obscene vulgarity used by many men in uniform and those who
work on planes .... it means a "very little bit"  ... if I tell you the R
stands for red and the H stands for hair, I believe you can fill in what the C
stands for.

There are several versions of ground effect. The one we were concerned with in
THAT respect was the drag introduced by being ON the ground, and a sudden lift
(use of a wee bit of flaps, or an RCH) got us off that. On the other hand,
there are those who view ground effect as that cushion flying CLOSE to the
ground gives an aircraft. This is also another form of ground effect.

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehen

"Tooley, Dave" wrote:

> Bill,
> Can you explain the terms: RCH and ground effect?
> Thanks!!
>
> Dave
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From:   William Heller [mailto:wheller@attglobal.net]
> Sent:   Friday, September 13, 2002 1:59 AM
> To:     303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject:        Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
>
> ELF ...
>
> I do not recall any crew considering the queries you offer ... they figured
> those things were figured for them by "others" and they merely took off.
> However, we always knew when we had a big bomb load and a big fuel load and
> oft times we would consider the use of cracking flaps an RCH at the takeoff
> end of the runway to get airborne and rid of ground effect. I did this once
> with a General in the copilot seat on a lead mission .. as we were a bit
> down
> the runway to begin with ... as most leads were. So I pointed to the flap
> toggle switch and said, "General, when we get to the other end and I shout
> FLAPS! I want you to toggle this switch just an RCH."  He looked at me and
> said, (whatever my rank was)  "..... We do not do that!"  I said, "General,
> Sir, I am in command of this fuckin' bucket and if I ask for flaps PLEASE
> give
> them to me IF you want to get off the ground!"
>
> He looked at me and said, "Yes SIR!" And for the rest of the mission we got
> along very well. AND he DID give me flaps when I shouted it.
>
> Nowthen, I do know that any pilot who was intelligent enough to care about
> CG
> often looked around his plane, especially in the tail position for EXTRA
> BOXES
> OF AMMO!  Now THOSE were heavy and being in the very tail  of the plane,
> could
> cause a CG problem.
>
> Frankly, I do not believe many pilots cared about either the CG or the LOAD
> as
> they figured that "someone" had that all figured out for them. And, I
> believe
> "someone" did.
>
> Cheers!
>
> WCH
>
> Edward L Frank wrote:
>
> > Sir William von Bsiebsehn
> >
> > Bill, was it ever considered, by any of the Crew, to take off, Over GW.
> but
> > with-in CG, for a long mission, that is when temperature condition were
> > right?
> > Ed.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 09:17:23 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:17:23 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 3 Kinds Of 2
References: <86.2057f718.2ab7c8cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D86E513.54EF31CC@attglobal.net>

JPR aka Mr. President ...

If you are Dutch it is van, but German it is VON.

Cheers my good friend.

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

Jprencher@aol.com wrote:

>   Two, to, and too. It is Monday. I just got back. My e-mail is checked and I
> see some questions. The WIND can blow and you can WIND the clock. There are
> two kinds of Ground Effect.
>      Air has weight (Mass). Any weight that is at rest. (Not moving) will
> continue not moving unless some Force moves it. Any Mass that is moving will
> continue to move in a straight line at a constant speed unless some force
> stops it or changes it's direction or speed. Any of these actions will take
> force.(energy)
>      Assuming there is no wind, When a B17 sits on the end of the runway it
> is not moving in relation to the air around it. When it is pointed down the
> runway and the throttles are advanced the propellers push the mass of air
> around them to the rear hence an equal force is exerted on the propellers
> pushing them forward. This causes the B17 to accelerate down the runway until
> the drag equals the trust. At that point the speed will remain constant and
> not change until either the thrust is increased or the drag is reduced. There
> are several thing than cause drag. Wind resistance, and friction of the
> wheels and tires on the runway are the two biggies at this point hopefully
> you have flying speed and cause the wings to lift the load off the runway. If
> that happens some of the drag is eliminated when the tires leave the runway
> Sod, Mud, Grass, dirt or ???. The copilot pulls the gear up and that reduces
> drag, Maybe closes the cowl flaps and that reduces drag Soon pulls the wing
> flaps up and that reduces drag. Now the B17 is clean and the drag is reduced.
>  The trust is the same until the copilot reduces power and hence the speed
> again increases until the the drag again equals the trust. This I believe is
> what our learned German Count was correctly calling ground effect.
>      There is another Ground Effect that most all GOOD pilot are aware of but
> until you read this very few if any (except one) know what causes it. If one
> is over water it could very well be called water effect. This ground effect
> is the fact that any engine driven winged aircraft performs better very close
> to the ground than it does just a few feet higher.  Now the secret of the
> other ground effect so you won't anymore get the two types confused. They are
> completely different.
>      Again assuming there is no wind. If there is a wind is still works the
> same it just makes a bit more difficult to explain and keep it short? Again,
> The air has mass (weight ). It won't move until some force moves it. The B17
> comes down the runway. It pushes the air out from in front of it. Some goes
> on each side of the B17. Some goes over it. Some tries to go under it but
> there is no room there. The ground (or water) is in the way.  So we get a
> "Pillow" of slightly compressed air in front of the plane that just has not
> had time to get out of its way yet and the faster the plane goes and the
> closer it is to the ground the bigger the pillow becomes. This pillow of air
> is compressed. Therefore it is more dense. Hence The engine puts out more
> power. The propellers are pushing back more weight of air so they make more
> thrust.
>  The wings have more lift.  When the plane gets a few feet off the ground the
> air in front of it can escape in all the other places and can go under the
> plane too, letting our Pillow of air mostly escape and the air in front of
> our plane is less dense and we have lost our Ground effect. And know you know
> the other ground effect and will never ever be confused again.
>      My next letter will probably be on CG but this one is too long already.
> There is a lot that even some good pilots don't know about C. G.  and most of
> them will not believe me when I tell them. I won't feel bad as I don't
> believe some of it myself
>
>      Best Wishes,
>        Kan't Count Van Rencher. (Can't spell either)

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 20:49:13 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:49:13 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] von Bsiebzehn
Message-ID: <15c.13b74a1f.2ab8e139@aol.com>

very succinctly put

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 17 22:04:18 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:04:18 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
In-Reply-To: <3D86E1C5.DDE90F28@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3D876092.26595.2429047@localhost>

> There are several versions of ground effect. The one we were concerned
> with in THAT respect was the drag introduced by being ON the ground,
> and a sudden lift (use of a wee bit of flaps, or an RCH) got us off
> that.

This is somewhat off topic, but we have a small lake or pond near 
here, which is not quite a half mile long, and surrounded by trees.  
A couple years ago, one of those 2 engine Grumman Albatross 
seaplanes, which looks to be about the same size as a B-26, ie a 
pretty big  plane, landed on our pond.  We didn't think it would have 
enough distance to get airborne again, but what the pilot did, was 
make several loops around the pond, making waves.  Then when he got 
the plane up to speed, it looked like the waves bounced him off the 
surface just a little bit, allowing him to get airborne quicker.  I 
guess this relates a bit to the ground induced drag.  Makes me wonder 
if a small speed bump at the end of the runway would help get the 
plane airborne?  (Obviously a non-pilot here, so don't laugh too 
loud.)  
    The sea-plane - water thing might be a little more complicated 
though in that perhaps surface tension effect is involved too.

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 18 01:10:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:10:47 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jet Ground Effect
Message-ID: <6e.22d7f5f0.2ab91e87@aol.com>

Bill,
     Having left the US Army Air Corps before it was promoted to the Air 
Force, I never got to fly jets. So I never got to experiment in them like I 
did in the old prop birds. What I am going to tell you is theory (mine) 
and/or my opinion.  I may be all wet, but I doubt it. I haven't had a bath 
since last spring and I used a towel then.
     A cubic foot of air near sea level has about 4 times as much air in it 
(by weight) as a cubic foot of air at 36000 feet. You would have a similar 
"pillow" ground effect in a jet like an F-80 as you would in bird like a P51. 
 I suspect in either you would be pretty well out of ground effect when you 
were about a 1/2 wing span above the ground.
     I don't believe you would have any substantial increase in thrust in the 
jet at 36000 feet. The increase in speed and performance in the jet would be 
largely the result of the big reduction in drag due to the thin air.  The ram 
effect of the large air intake and the high speed would largely off set the 
thin air. If you were going 600 MPH at 36000 feet you would be "gulping" 
about the same amount of air, by weight, before it reached the compressor, as 
you would near sea level at 150 MPH so your thrust would be about the same as 
long as you kept it moving.

     Nice to hear from you, Old Buddy. Look forward to seeing you, Grish, and 
the crew in Branson.
      Best Wishes,
           Jack Rencher

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 18 08:05:54 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:05:54 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <3D876092.26595.2429047@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D8825D1.DEFAE4E@attglobal.net>

A small "bump" at the end of the runway at that speed would BREAK
something!

Cheers!

Bill Jones wrote:

>
> > There are several versions of ground effect. The one we were concerned
> > with in THAT respect was the drag introduced by being ON the ground,
> > and a sudden lift (use of a wee bit of flaps, or an RCH) got us off
> > that.
>
> This is somewhat off topic, but we have a small lake or pond near
> here, which is not quite a half mile long, and surrounded by trees.
> A couple years ago, one of those 2 engine Grumman Albatross
> seaplanes, which looks to be about the same size as a B-26, ie a
> pretty big  plane, landed on our pond.  We didn't think it would have
> enough distance to get airborne again, but what the pilot did, was
> make several loops around the pond, making waves.  Then when he got
> the plane up to speed, it looked like the waves bounced him off the
> surface just a little bit, allowing him to get airborne quicker.  I
> guess this relates a bit to the ground induced drag.  Makes me wonder
> if a small speed bump at the end of the runway would help get the
> plane airborne?  (Obviously a non-pilot here, so don't laugh too
> loud.)
>     The sea-plane - water thing might be a little more complicated
> though in that perhaps surface tension effect is involved too.
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 18 15:48:11 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (A. BOERSMA)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:48:11 +0200
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <3D876092.26595.2429047@localhost> <3D8825D1.DEFAE4E@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <000701c25f22$6a862c20$8157e5d5@dekooi.nl>

A small bump, oke.But a more gradual rise is something different.The
British/American VTOL Harrier will normally start from an aircraftcarrier
via a big " bump " at the end of the flightdeck.Fully loaded it is unable of
a VTO.
Regards
Ton

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Heller" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb

> A small "bump" at the end of the runway at that speed would BREAK
> something!
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> Bill Jones wrote:
>
> >
> > > There are several versions of ground effect. The one we were concerned
> > > with in THAT respect was the drag introduced by being ON the ground,
> > > and a sudden lift (use of a wee bit of flaps, or an RCH) got us off
> > > that.
> >
> > This is somewhat off topic, but we have a small lake or pond near
> > here, which is not quite a half mile long, and surrounded by trees.
> > A couple years ago, one of those 2 engine Grumman Albatross
> > seaplanes, which looks to be about the same size as a B-26, ie a
> > pretty big  plane, landed on our pond.  We didn't think it would have
> > enough distance to get airborne again, but what the pilot did, was
> > make several loops around the pond, making waves.  Then when he got
> > the plane up to speed, it looked like the waves bounced him off the
> > surface just a little bit, allowing him to get airborne quicker.  I
> > guess this relates a bit to the ground induced drag.  Makes me wonder
> > if a small speed bump at the end of the runway would help get the
> > plane airborne?  (Obviously a non-pilot here, so don't laugh too
> > loud.)
> >     The sea-plane - water thing might be a little more complicated
> > though in that perhaps surface tension effect is involved too.
> >
> >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
> >
> >  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> >  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> >
>
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 18 18:22:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:22:56 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
References: <3D876092.26595.2429047@localhost> <3D8825D1.DEFAE4E@attglobal.net> <000701c25f22$6a862c20$8157e5d5@dekooi.nl>
Message-ID: <3D88B671.C6083B04@attglobal.net>

Cannot compare the VTOL with a standard fixed wing aircraft's takeoff roll.
With almost 50 years as a pilot and 33,000 command pilot hours, during the war
was the ONLY time I used the RCP flap toggling at the end of a precarious
takeoff run. But, we were in war, expendable and expected to perform sans the
normal requirements of today's piloting.

Cheers!

"A. BOERSMA" wrote:

> A small bump, oke.But a more gradual rise is something different.The
> British/American VTOL Harrier will normally start from an aircraftcarrier
> via a big " bump " at the end of the flightdeck.Fully loaded it is unable of
> a VTO.
> Regards
> Ton
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Heller" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb
>
> > A small "bump" at the end of the runway at that speed would BREAK
> > something!
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Jones wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > There are several versions of ground effect. The one we were concerned
> > > > with in THAT respect was the drag introduced by being ON the ground,
> > > > and a sudden lift (use of a wee bit of flaps, or an RCH) got us off
> > > > that.
> > >
> > > This is somewhat off topic, but we have a small lake or pond near
> > > here, which is not quite a half mile long, and surrounded by trees.
> > > A couple years ago, one of those 2 engine Grumman Albatross
> > > seaplanes, which looks to be about the same size as a B-26, ie a
> > > pretty big  plane, landed on our pond.  We didn't think it would have
> > > enough distance to get airborne again, but what the pilot did, was
> > > make several loops around the pond, making waves.  Then when he got
> > > the plane up to speed, it looked like the waves bounced him off the
> > > surface just a little bit, allowing him to get airborne quicker.  I
> > > guess this relates a bit to the ground induced drag.  Makes me wonder
> > > if a small speed bump at the end of the runway would help get the
> > > plane airborne?  (Obviously a non-pilot here, so don't laugh too
> > > loud.)
> > >     The sea-plane - water thing might be a little more complicated
> > > though in that perhaps surface tension effect is involved too.
> > >
> > >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
> > >
> > >  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> > >  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> > >
> >
> >

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 06:16:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:16:43 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flaps on take off
Message-ID: <19c.8f13fcf.2abab7bb@aol.com>

Gentlemen,
     When one starts his take off roll he is not interested in lift. He is 
interested in speed. (Acceleration.) Hence he would want the least amount of 
drag possible. If he put the flaps down before he started the take off roll 
they would produce a bit of lift as he started moving, which he does not need 
and drag he does not want. At the rotation point when the wheels are supposed 
to leave the ground lift is of prime importance. hence flaps are of prime 
importance as they do produce lift. If you have enough speed you can put up 
with the increased drag in order to get the lift. The best lift drag ratio is 
a partial flap. A trick old good pilots use is to crank the wheel, or stick, 
all the way to the right and look at the angle of the left aileron. Put the 
flap down to the same angle and you will have the best lift/drag ratio 
available on that plane. Pull the flaps up and start your take off roll. When 
you are ready to lift it off. Forget he red hair and put the flaps down to 
the same angle.  If you have to guess, just a bit less. (Closer to the red 
hair)
     Kant Count Von Kopilet

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 17:29:30 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power"
In-Reply-To: <19c.8f13fcf.2abab7bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020919162930.70535.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Even though most of you hate the new version of The
Memphis Belle, I have a question about one of the
scenes.  As the Belle is climbing out after take-off,
the pilot asks the copilot for "Climb power."  Is this
just another Hollywood antic, or is there really such
a thing as "climb power?"

Second question:  What instruments did you use to set
the engines?  Manifold pressure, RPMs, or did you do
it by sight, sound and feel (throttle)?  And is boost
pressure the same as maniold pressure?

Thanks, fellas!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 17:29:30 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power"
In-Reply-To: <19c.8f13fcf.2abab7bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020919162930.70535.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Even though most of you hate the new version of The
Memphis Belle, I have a question about one of the
scenes.  As the Belle is climbing out after take-off,
the pilot asks the copilot for "Climb power."  Is this
just another Hollywood antic, or is there really such
a thing as "climb power?"

Second question:  What instruments did you use to set
the engines?  Manifold pressure, RPMs, or did you do
it by sight, sound and feel (throttle)?  And is boost
pressure the same as maniold pressure?

Thanks, fellas!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 17:33:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Flight Gear Question
In-Reply-To: <19c.8f13fcf.2abab7bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020919163348.41363.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

I have heard the RAF made better flying cloths than
the US.  Apparently RAF flying boots were preferred
over US made boots.  Other items such as gloves and
goggles seemed to be preferred over US made ones.  Do
any of you have any first hand experience with RAF
Flight Gear?
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 21:10:02 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:10:02 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Flight Gear Question
In-Reply-To: <20020919163348.41363.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Hi Kevin:  Only item of RAF issue I came in contact with were the nylon gloves
which made fiddling around with the bombsight a lot less cumbersome than our
leather jobs and a lot safer than going bare-handed.  Cheers, Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Sep 19 22:25:15 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:25:15 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Flight Gear Question
References: <20020919163348.41363.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D8A40BA.A3EBF4BA@attglobal.net>

They had more experience at it by the time we got there.  I
used RAF goggles because they were made to take care of
glare, ie., night Flak bursts, etc.  Thus they did well for
me when flying East on early missions. Goggles were worn at
times in the cockpit to help cover the part of the face the
O2 mask did not cover. This in event of flash fires, etc.,
AND, for bailing out if necessary, consequently I wore my
RAF goggles on the bomb run.

RAF boots were liked by many but we had VERY good ones.

Cheers!

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> I have heard the RAF made better flying cloths than
> the US.  Apparently RAF flying boots were preferred
> over US made boots.  Other items such as gloves and
> goggles seemed to be preferred over US made ones.  Do
> any of you have any first hand experience with RAF
> Flight Gear?
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 20 01:02:44 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:02:44 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power"
Message-ID: <10d.18636aa3.2abbbfa4@aol.com>

Kevin,
     Probably some crews could designate "Climb Power" but I never flew on a 
crew that did.  I would suppose 2300 and 36 inches would be climb power if 
you were going to name something that. I always asked for what I wanted You 
could climb with 2200 and 32 inches but not as fast especially if you were 
quite loaded. By the time we got to the IP you had usually used 3/4s of our 
fuel so if you had to climb there it wouldn't take so much power. We landed 
and took off with 2500. so you didn't ask for that it was just automatic. We 
took off with 46 inches, also automatic.  On landing we set it at 2500 but 
very little Throttle (Manifold pressure) on short final in case we had to go 
around at the last minute.

     What instruments? Tachometer for RPM. Manifold gauge for manifold 
pressure. 
I did synchronize engines by sound and prop shadows but that wasn't in the 
SOP. I only use them when we got down to only one or two RPMs difference 
     Be aware, The positions of the throttles determined manifold pressure 
somewhat independent of the supercharger settings.  Yes, the superchargers 
provided boost pressure so calling it that would be understood and it would 
the same as manifold pressure. You have manifold pressure without a 
supercharger but without a supercharger you could have no boost pressure and 
not over about 28 inches of manifold pressure even at near sea level.

     Best Wishes,  
            Jack

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 20 07:45:46 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:45:46 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Flight Gear Question
References: <20020919163348.41363.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c26071$92ad0a20$0d24fd3e@RAY>

Kevin

My wife, Theresa's, uncle Freddie flew in RAF Bomber Command and when he
passed away a few years back I inherited his wartime fleece-lined 'Irving'
flying jacket, with heating elements, together with his flying suit and
fleece-lined, custom made, black leather flying boots. He had the latter
made for him by some high-class cobbler in London's west end. Freddie was
non-commissioned during the war but went on the attain the officer rank of
Wing Commander/acting Group Captain. The boots are exactly my size and are
so, so comfortable. The jacket, though heavy, is really warm and comfortable
also.

Regards

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 20 17:33:38 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power" & "RAF Gear" Questions
In-Reply-To: <001601c26071$92ad0a20$0d24fd3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020920163338.77347.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Bob, Bill, Jack and Ray for answering my two
questions.

Bob:  I'm sure those bombsight knobs got mighty cold
at 25,000 feet in the middle of winter.  

Bill:  The US made goggles had red filter inserts to
help cut down on glare - did you ever use these?  

JacK:  Thanks so much for another great reply to Climb
Power.  It must be another foopah in Memphis Belle,
but I did enjoy your discussion of RPMs and manifold
pressure during the various stages of the mission.

Ray:  I do some reinacting and have some serious
reproduction flight gear.  I am ordering an Eastman
Leather Company 1401 Rough Wear A-2 for my collection.
 I have a leather flying helmet, throat mike, goggles
(RAF), shearling-lined Eastman trousers, 50 mission
crush cap, oxygen mask, parachute harness chest chute,
B-4 gunner gloves, B-3 bag, 100 rounds of inert .50s
linked.  The only thing I'm missing is a pair of RAF
Flying Boots and a Mae West.  Do you know where I
might buy a reproduction of these two items in the UK?
 All of the above are reproductions except the gunner
gloves, and when I find a repro of these, they will go
to a museum. 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 21 00:01:23 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:01:23 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Limey Flight Gear
Message-ID: <003401c260f9$a5b7bb00$d793bbd0@cts>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Kevin :
 Look at the Picture of me in Spiders Story (under links on the 303rd =
home page} I was wearing limey Goggles which had glass lenses instead of =
plsstic. When I bailed out the glass broke and I was cut . I also wore =
Limey Flight Gloves.

      Dick " Spider" Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C260BE.F7DFFEA0
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Kevin :
 Look at the Picture of me in =
Spiders Story=20
(under links on the 303rd home page} I was wearing limey Goggles which =
had glass=20
lenses instead of plsstic. When I bailed out the glass broke and I was =
cut . I=20
also wore Limey Flight Gloves.

      Dick " =
Spider"=20
Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C260BE.F7DFFEA0--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 21 04:38:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:38:17 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power" & "RAF Gear" Questions
References: <20020920163338.77347.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c26120$54011500$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

As I recall we used the red lense for adapting the eyes to night flying,
wearing them for awhile before take off time but never whle in flight.
During the day in bright light they would act as an infrared filter making
the sky almost black and green foliage on the ground would be darker.
Camoflague paint may look lighter against the darker green natural foliage
LeRoy Christenson, Naviagator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power" & "RAF Gear" Questions

> Thanks, Bob, Bill, Jack and Ray for answering my two
> questions.
>
> Bob:  I'm sure those bombsight knobs got mighty cold
> at 25,000 feet in the middle of winter.
>
> Bill:  The US made goggles had red filter inserts to
> help cut down on glare - did you ever use these?
>
> JacK:  Thanks so much for another great reply to Climb
> Power.  It must be another foopah in Memphis Belle,
> but I did enjoy your discussion of RPMs and manifold
> pressure during the various stages of the mission.
>
> Ray:  I do some reinacting and have some serious
> reproduction flight gear.  I am ordering an Eastman
> Leather Company 1401 Rough Wear A-2 for my collection.
>  I have a leather flying helmet, throat mike, goggles
> (RAF), shearling-lined Eastman trousers, 50 mission
> crush cap, oxygen mask, parachute harness chest chute,
> B-4 gunner gloves, B-3 bag, 100 rounds of inert .50s
> linked.  The only thing I'm missing is a pair of RAF
> Flying Boots and a Mae West.  Do you know where I
> might buy a reproduction of these two items in the UK?
>  All of the above are reproductions except the gunner
> gloves, and when I find a repro of these, they will go
> to a museum.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 21 07:46:37 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:46:37 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Climb Power" & "RAF Gear" Questions
References: <20020920163338.77347.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D8C15CC.41B9884D@attglobal.net>

KP ...

I used the RAF goggles.

Cheers!

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Thanks, Bob, Bill, Jack and Ray for answering my two
> questions.
>
> Bob:  I'm sure those bombsight knobs got mighty cold
> at 25,000 feet in the middle of winter.
>
> Bill:  The US made goggles had red filter inserts to
> help cut down on glare - did you ever use these?
>
> JacK:  Thanks so much for another great reply to Climb
> Power.  It must be another foopah in Memphis Belle,
> but I did enjoy your discussion of RPMs and manifold
> pressure during the various stages of the mission.
>
> Ray:  I do some reinacting and have some serious
> reproduction flight gear.  I am ordering an Eastman
> Leather Company 1401 Rough Wear A-2 for my collection.
>  I have a leather flying helmet, throat mike, goggles
> (RAF), shearling-lined Eastman trousers, 50 mission
> crush cap, oxygen mask, parachute harness chest chute,
> B-4 gunner gloves, B-3 bag, 100 rounds of inert .50s
> linked.  The only thing I'm missing is a pair of RAF
> Flying Boots and a Mae West.  Do you know where I
> might buy a reproduction of these two items in the UK?
>  All of the above are reproductions except the gunner
> gloves, and when I find a repro of these, they will go
> to a museum.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 23 19:02:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:02:49 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Will the real B17 Pilot stand up?
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA6A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

List,
On another forum I spotted the email below which was dated 9/23.  Who are
you?  Fess up now!!

Hi: 
I was en route to Florence,SC the other day and got behind a car that had a
New York license plate. It read "B 17 Pilot" the frame the plate was in said
"303rd Bomb Group" and "Hell's Angels." Any idea who this was? 

Rev Bo Yates 
bo_yates@yahoo.com
Ruby, SC

Dave

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 23 19:30:05 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:30:05 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW ID NUMBER
Message-ID: <5a.120a3e02.2ac0b7ad@aol.com>

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Dear Sirs, I am trying to locate a POW number, 112995, this persons name and 
unit, POW in German prison camp. Do you know if there of a list of German POW 
numbers? Can you help me with this question?
Thank you.

PS my father was a POW in Stalag 17b, Paul (SWEDE) Carlson, barracks 31b.
Thanks again.

--part1_5a.120a3e02.2ac0b7ad_boundary
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Dear Sirs, I am trying to locate a POW number, 112995, this persons name and unit, POW in German prison camp. Do you know if there of a list of German POW numbers? Can you help me with this question?

Thank you.

PS my father was a POW in Stalag 17b, Paul (SWEDE) Carlson, barracks 31b.

Thanks again.

--part1_5a.120a3e02.2ac0b7ad_boundary--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 23 20:32:39 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:32:39 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW ID NUMBER
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032737A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26337.FA17A580
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Try www.armyairforces.com  .  Go to the
section called RESEARCH.  Towards the bottom is a resource for POW data.
Also go to the FORUMS section, then to the Prisoner of War/Internee section.
They have a message area specifically for Stalag XVII B.

Good luck!

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: CgcRita@aol.com [mailto:CgcRita@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:30 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW ID NUMBER

Dear Sirs, I am trying to locate a POW number, 112995, this persons name and
unit, POW in German prison camp. Do you know if there of a list of German
POW numbers? Can you help me with this question?
Thank you.

PS my father was a POW in Stalag 17b, Paul (SWEDE) Carlson, barracks 31b.
Thanks again.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26337.FA17A580
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Try www.armyairforces.com.
 Go to the section called =
RESEARCH.  Towards the bottom is a =
resource for
POW data.  Also go to the =
FORUMS
section, then to the Prisoner of War/Internee section.  They have a message area =
specifically
for Stalag XVII B.

 =

Good luck!<=
/p>

 =

Dave

 =

-----Original
Message-----

From: CgcRita@aol.com
[mailto:CgcRita@aol.com]

Sent: Monday, September =
23, 2002
1:30 PM

To: =
303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Subject: [303rd-Talk] =
POW ID
NUMBER

Dear Sirs, I am trying to =
locate a POW
number, 112995, this persons name and unit, POW in German prison camp. =
Do you
know if there of a list of German POW numbers? Can you help me with =
this
question?

Thank you.

PS my father was a POW in Stalag 17b, Paul (SWEDE) Carlson, barracks =
31b.

Thanks again.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26337.FA17A580--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 23 20:43:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:43:42 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Will the real B17 Pilot stand up?
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA6A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: 

> List,
> On another forum I spotted the email below which was dated 9/23.  Who are
> you?  Fess up now!!
> 
> Hi: 
> I was en route to Florence,SC the other day and got behind a car that had a
> New York license plate. It read "B 17 Pilot" the frame the plate was in said
> "303rd Bomb Group" and "Hell's Angels." Any idea who this was?
> 
> Rev Bo Yates 
> bo_yates@yahoo.com
> Ruby, SC
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
'T'waren't me, Dave...I've got Tenn. plate:  B17-WW2   Cheers, Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 23 23:09:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Will the real B17 Pilot stand up?
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA6A@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20020923220949.66125.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  Jim Hill, the former editor of 8th AF NEWS, God
rest his soul, use to publish pictures of 8th AF
licence plates and stories about them.  Seems like
most of those who have one of these plates spend a lot
of time waving at grateful countrymen!!

Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 06:40:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:40:57 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: "RAF Gear" and BTG's
Message-ID: <00e901c2638c$f620a120$3bf96741@default>

Speaking of RAF and GI gear, would anybody have
any comments on RAF and US parachutes and how they compared in size.

I read somewhere, I cant remember (Im only 52 and have CRS) that a BTG got a
chute from an RAF pilot, it being smaller and so he had room in the turret
for him and his chute. If I remember correctly, for the sake of room, he
would leave his US chute by the hatch until one day he heard one of the
waist gunners say "you untangle me first, then I'll untangle you" and so the
BTG went up to see what was going on and they had somehow popped his chute
open.
After he got the RAF chute, because it being smaller, he could take it with
him into the Ball.
Was that a post from Jim Walling maybe?
Thanks  Bill Hoyt

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 17:50:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:50:56 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
Message-ID: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost>

   Yesterday, I went down to Lewiston/Auburn airport here in Maine, 
to see the Collins Foundation "Nine-O-Nine" B-17.  Usually, it comes 
into Portland, but the bigger airport is a bit more confused since 
9/11, so this year it is at a smaller airport, which was great.  
Because the airport is smaller, you could get fairly close to the 
runways when it was up flying.  I took a few pictures, which are at :

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17.html  

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 16:49:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:49:34 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: "RAF Gear" and BTG's
In-Reply-To: <00e901c2638c$f620a120$3bf96741@default>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020924104934.0088d190@ilhawaii.net>

Bill Hoyt,

That was not from me. I did take my chute into my ball turret after I had a side windo shot out, but it was a standard chest pack. I only connected the snap on one side, and it was not in the way too much. i di weigh only 128 pounds at that time.
Jim Walling

At 11:40 PM 9/23/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Speaking of RAF and GI gear, would anybody have
>any comments on RAF and US parachutes and how they compared in size.
>
>I read somewhere, I cant remember (Im only 52 and have CRS) that a BTG got a
>chute from an RAF pilot, it being smaller and so he had room in the turret
>for him and his chute. If I remember correctly, for the sake of room, he
>would leave his US chute by the hatch until one day he heard one of the
>waist gunners say "you untangle me first, then I'll untangle you" and so the
>BTG went up to see what was going on and they had somehow popped his chute
>open.
>After he got the RAF chute, because it being smaller, he could take it with
>him into the Ball.
>Was that a post from Jim Walling maybe?
>Thanks  Bill Hoyt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 21:14:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:14:49 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
References: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D90C7B9.2BF53159@attglobal.net>

BJ ...

I once worked three days at the SFO Airport (for free) when the Collings
Foundation had their B17 and B24 there for exhibit. I stationed a 303rd
combatant R/O in the Radio Room to answer questions as the public went
through the plane from nose to tail. Collings came up to me and said,
"Get that %#&(% guy OUT of that Radiio Room! He is slowing up my people
going through the plane and that costs me MONEY!"  I told Collings that
the fellow in the Radio Room was a real combatant in the B17 in WW#2 and
that the public LOVES what he has to say. Collings retort to me was,
"I'm here to make money and YOU are holding me up!"

He was the same Collings to whom I introduced my wife, son, and
daughter-in-law at the entrance where everyone was paying $7 to enter
the area. My three family members PAID their $7 each TO COLLINGS
HIMSELF!  (No concern for the fact that three actual COMBATANTS in that
airplane were helping him FOR FREE).

After three days of working with them at the SFO Airport, I LEFT!

When the CAF came to the Half Moon Bay Airport some years ago, I aided
them in their work. They charged $5 for people to go through the plane
and their CREWMEMBERS were everywhere speaking with the public.
(Collings crew were young upstarts with a surly attitude when asked
questions about their work). The Confederate Air Force fellows stayed
THREE extra days because the public loved them so much.  Due to this, a
local businessman and good friend of mine PAID for their lodging and
food for those three extra days. The CAF does a GREAT job.  Collings
merely wants to sell JUNK while he HURRIES the public through his
planes.

By the way, the combat R/O who did such fine work was our own PAUL
TOGNETTI from the 303rd.

Cheers!

Bill Jones wrote:

>    Yesterday, I went down to Lewiston/Auburn airport here in Maine,
> to see the Collins Foundation "Nine-O-Nine" B-17.  Usually, it comes
> into Portland, but the bigger airport is a bit more confused since
> 9/11, so this year it is at a smaller airport, which was great.
> Because the airport is smaller, you could get fairly close to the
> runways when it was up flying.  I took a few pictures, which are at :
>
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17.html
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 22:47:35 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <3D90C7B9.2BF53159@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20020924214735.14768.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Bill Heller about the Confederate Air
Force!  They are a great bunch and have their hearts
in the right place.  In 1991 I took a 91st BG Veteran
to Midland and we flew to San Antonio on Sentimental
Journey.  I now know why most of you vets have slight
hearing problems!!  Flying on the Fort was a dream
come true, but watching that 74-year old 91st vet,
Louis LaHood, become a 24 year old bomber pilot again
was priceless!

I know I've posted the story about that flight before,
but I will do so again if anyone cares to read it.
Kevin

A Flight Into The Past
By:  Kevin M. Pearson - 1992

The crisp, morning air in Midland, Texas, was abruptly
broken by the thunderous, deep-throated roar of four,
1200 horsepower Wright Cyclone engines, belonging to
the B-17 Flying Fortress named "Texas Raiders.�  Each
engine coughed, sputtered and belched large quantities
of blue, oil-laden exhaust as each of the nine
cylinder Cyclones, one by one, roared to life with a
sound reminiscent of a time long past.
It all started in the summer of 1991 when I sat down
for a root beer float at Lou's Drive-In in Peoria,
Illinois.  On that day, I was wearing a cap bearing
the letters and  numerals "B-17G" and a T-shirt with a
picture of a B-17 Flying Fortress on it.  The owner of
Lou's Drive-In, Louis LaHood, came up to me and asked
in a skeptical and somewhat sarcastic tone what a
young guy like me knew about the B-17 Flying Fortress.
 Lou had been a pilot with the Eighth Army Air Force,
91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) and had flown 30 combat
missions over occupied Europe during World War II.  We
spent the rest of that day discussing such things as
manual versus automatic turbo-supercharging, the
magnetic flux-gate compass, stratospheric flight
characteristics, and, of course, the inherent
advantages and disadvantages of the Boeing B-17 Flying
Fortress versus its major rival, the Consolidated B-24
Liberator.
During our conversation, I told Lou I was writing a
book about this remarkable aircraft and this is what
he said to me, "Before you can ever write a book about
the B-17, you have to fly on one.  No other plane
flies quite like the 17."  I took his advice to heart
and contacted the Confederate Air Force (CAF) museum
in Midland, Texas, and after several months, received
permission for both Lou and myself to fly on their
B-17, affectionately known as �The Raiders.�
My photographer and I arrived in Midland at 10:00 p.m.
on the night of March 28, 1992.  We had been on the
road since 6:00 a.m. that morning but before checking
into our motel, before even eating dinner, we were
overpowered by the urge to go to CAF Headquarters and
see the "Fort.�  There was a certain magnetism in the
air, something drawing us to the Fortress, a force so
strong that we both had but one purpose and that was
to see the B-17.
We walked into the main hangar at CAF Headquarters and
were immediately greeted by the sounds of "Chattanooga
Choo Choo,"  a wartime classic originally sung by
Frances Langford in 1942.  A party was in progress -
one of many hosted by the CAF each year.  There were
many people in the hangar, some sitting, some
standing, some dancing, their voices echoing in a
muffled staccato in the vast and cavernous expanses of
the hangar.  I gazed about and saw a multitude of
World War II aircraft.  The air was thick with the
smell of high-octane aviation fuel and other assorted
olfactory delights common only to a place where
aircraft are stored.  In the background I could hear
the lead vocalist singing, "There's gonna be a special
someone at the station, satin and lace, I use to call
funny face.�  To my left was an F-82, a Siamese twin
version of the P-51 Mustang, to my right a German
ME-109.  Straight ahead was "FiFi,� a Boeing B-29
Superfortress with all four engines detached from
their nacelles, obviously undergoing what we in the
aviation community call an annual.  Where was the
B-17?  She wasn't in the hangar.
Then, out of the corner of my eye, I spotted her and
the distinctive shape of her Plexiglas nose.  She was
parked outside of the hangar on the "hardstand.�  The
expansive hangar doors were only partially cracked,
exposing only a frontal view of the fuselage.
We began walking towards the "Fort" as the band
started its rendition of Glenn Miller's "Little Brown
Jug.�  Actually our walk simulated a gallop, and the
closer we got to the "Fort," the faster our strides
became.  I could hear one gentleman in the background,
somewhat inebriated from the nights festivities,
bellowing, "And there we were at 24,000 feet, one
engine feathered and one on fire, when we began
pitching like this and we started going down,� (he
made an arching motion with his hand) his story
becoming inaudible as we breezed past him.
We had walked into a time warp.  Certainly I must be
having a dream.
We walked right by security, right by the band and
slipped out through the hangar doors.  There she was
in all of her splendor, silhouetted by the glare of
the hangar lights.  We just stood there, mouths wide
open and stared up in amazed delight.  Before us was
this huge, four-engine behemoth of an airplane, the
type of plane I had studied for the better part of the
last fifteen years.
We walked around her, peering into every window,
sliding our hands over her smooth control surfaces
until it seemed like we studied every rivet on that
plane.  We spent the next hour just hanging around
that old bird.  I felt a sense of awe just being in
the presence of this time machine, a machine that had
helped accomplish so much during those dark days of
1942 to 1945.
The next day we met Lou, who was flying in from
Peoria, then with the Flight Operations Coordinator of
the Confederate Air Force.  We received our flight
instructions - we would fly the next day and could
spend the rest of this day photographing the Fortress
inside and out.
We grabbed our equipment and headed for the hangar. 
The Fort was still outside, basking in the warm spring
sunshine.  We rounded the corner of the hangar and Lou
spotted her for the first time.  His eyes widened and
in the two year I had know Lou, he uttered the first
obscenity I had ever heard.  He said, "Well, I'll be
damned!"
Watching Lou crawl through "his" plane was one of the
most unique and interesting experiences of my life. 
He spoke of his six-foot tall tail-gunner, Robert
Megechelson,  and how his tail-gunner had "really
wanted" that position; about the relief tube in the
cockpit, how, if a pilot forgot to notify the
ball-turret gunner of the impending flow, the ball
turret's windows would freeze, rendering the turret
useless.  We discussed frontal attacks by enemy
fighters, the oxygen system and the time Lou's crew
had to "hit the silk" when the landing gear on his
B-17 wouldn't fully extend.
Lou was such a unique fellow.  I envyed and respected
this man in the same way I envyed and respected my own
father.  Sharing Lou's stories about the war and what
the war had meant to him, I felt for a brief time
closer to Lou than my own father, a sort of
camaraderie unique to a person who has never
experienced war.  After much hero worship and rhetoric
on my part, I finally realized that Lou was just the
typical airman of the 8th AAF.  He did not consider
himself a hero, nor did he consider what he did
anything out of the ordinary.  As he once said, "We
did what we had to do at the time; we never thought
about the danger."
It's 4:30 a.m. and I am already awake, not that I
slept any during the night.  I sit up on the side of
my bed, turn on the light, grab the telephone and dial
Midland/Odessa Flight Service.  The station operator
answers, and I inquire as to the weather along our
designated flight path.  The operator responds with,
"Cloudy and broken at 10,000, winds 274 degrees at 15
knots, gusting to 20." Perfect, no fronts, we'll fly
today.
We arrive at the hangar at 5:30 a.m. and go inside to
meet the rest of the crew.  Pat, the pilot, hands us
an insurance waiver and asks for our signature.  In a
nutshell, the waiver states we won't sue him or the
CAF in the event we are killed or maimed during the
flight. I pull out a pen and ink my name before even
reading the document.  My adrenaline is flowing at
full throttle.
Pat informs us we may move about the plane once we are
airborne, yet cautions there are many rough edges in
the plane and air turbulence is unpredictable - so be
careful.  He also indicates the location of air sick
bags and ear plugs. We board the B-17 from the waist
hatch.  Lou and I climb to the nose of the aircraft. 
I'm think to myself, this isn't real, this isn't
happening.  My mind is racing and can not yet
comprehend that a lifelong dream is about to come
true.  I feel as if I am out of my body looking down
at this young guy and this old guy crawling through
this 50 year old aircraft.
I look out through the Plexiglas nose and see the fire
tender, holding a rather large fire extinguisher, I
mentally note, and hear him say in a muffled voice,
"Start one first, Pat!.�  I look to my left and see
the port outboard engine, engine #1, slowly turning
over.  "9 blades, mags on, mesh and start!,� I hear
the copilot as he instructs Pat on starting procedure.
 The engine catches and roars to life.  The fire
tender holds up two fingers.  I see his lips move but
can't hear him over the roar of the first engine.  I
see the inboard port engine, #2, turning over.  Blue
smoke pours from the exhaust manifold waste gate.  For
an instant I wonder if we are on fire.
I turn and look out the starboard window in time to
see engine #4 firing up.  All four of the Hamilton
Standard, three-bladed, constant speed, variable pitch
propellers are turning in unison, and I am absolutely
overwhelmed by the blaring roar of the engines, even
though I know the engines are at an idle speed.
The thick, acrid smell of burnt engine oil and
high-octane av gas permeates every crevice of the
plane's interior.  The plane is vibrating so much that
I can barely steady my video camera.  A high pitched
whine can be heard over the steady drone of the
engines, and I realize the pilot is cycling the flaps
up and down in a pre-takeoff test.
The plane lurches forward as the pilot releases those
damn squeeky brakes. (Boeing never could make an
aircraft withour squeeky brakes!)  We swing off of the
tarmac and onto a taxiway, the Fortress gently rocking
and swaying over the bumps and dips in the taxiway, as
the bright Texas sunshine pours through every opening
in the nose of the plane.  I feel a trickle of sweat
pouring down my neck and am surprised because I am not
hot.
We reach the threshold of the active runway from which
we will be departing and swing the nose of the plane
into the wind.  One by one the pilot runs up each
engine to 1600 RPM. With each engine acceleration, the
plane bucks and vibrates, wanting to leave the binding
force of Earth's gravity behind. The pilot runs up
number 3 and 4 together.  The high pitched roar of the
two Cyclones is music to my ears; no other sound in
this world can ever simulate the deep-throated,
guttural roar of a 1200 horse power Wright Cyclone at
full throttle.
Lou turns to me a says , �Can you imagine 30 B-17s
lining up on a runway?"  In a far off place in my mind
I hear myself answer, "I've seen it in the movies but
can't imagine it in real life!"  "The way it was!" Lou
yells back.
We start rolling towards the active runway.  The pilot
turns the lumbering Fort so that the nose is pointed
straight down the white-stripped centerline.  The
airplane pauses for just a moment and then, slowly,
the pilot accelerates all four engines.  I hear Lou,
now yelling at the top of his voice, �He�s got to go
110 before he can get up!�
The sound from the engines begins as a dull roar and
progresses to an outright, ear deafening, rhythmic
scream. The force of acceleration momentarily causes
me to loose my balance, and I almost fall off of the
bombardiers platform.  We are rolling.  (I secretly
imagine we a taking off from an ancient, weed-choked
runway in the swirling mist of the North Sea, laden
with five 1,000 pounders, destined for the
ball-bearing works at Schweinfurt.)
I am pointing my video camera down the end of the
runway.  We are moving faster and faster.  I'm hearing
the tires clicking over the expansion joints in the
runway.  The white striped centerline is now looking
like a continuous white line as the massive wings are
slowly becoming airborne.  I feel a sudden jerk, the
plane swings 15 degrees into the wind, and I realize
we are off the ground.  A life long dream has come
true.
I turn around and point my video camera out the
starboard window.  Those magnificent Wright Cyclones
have come into an element all their own.  I see the
runway growing smaller and smaller and can see the
airport dropping away in the distance.  I hear the
pilot throttling back and synchronizing the engines. 
I'm thinking to myself, I'm in seventh heaven, it
can't get any better than this!
I turn and look closely at Lou for the first time
since taking off.  The plane starts a steep bank, and
I quickly look out of the side window and see the port
wing dipping below the horizon.  Lou is staring
straight ahead with an intense, yet far off look in
his eyes.  I can tell by the expression on his face,
that for him, he is again a twenty-four year old
bomber pilot winging his way eastward for yet another
bombing raid on the crumbling remains of the Third
Reich.  For Lou, the clock has turned back 47 years.
For a brief moment I transcend time.  I see the
well-groomed and manicured landscape of the English
Midlands racing below us; the steep, contrasting walls
of the White Cliffs of Dover; and white caps dancing
on the English Channel.  I wonder what it must have
been like to see thousands (yes, thousands) of heavy
bombers popping through the early morning cloud cover,
lining up on designated Splasher beacons for force
assembly.  What was it like to see the first vapor
trails streaming from your ship as you climbed to your
best operational altitude?  Mostly, I wonder what it
was like to have hundreds of German fighters and
thousands of German flak batteries trying to knock you
out of the sky.  (Lou once described this feeling as
walking totally naked down a very busy highway.  Think
about it.)
I videotape every possible component of this
remarkable aircraft during our 2 1/2 hour flight to
San Antonio.  I speak with the pilot, co-pilot and
flight engineer.  Before I know it, the flight is
almost over, as the canal running through downtown San
Antonio looms in the distance.  An airshow is in
progress, and I see CAF's B-25, "Yellow Rose,"
escorting us off of our starboard wing.
After landing, we taxi to our assigned parking area,
stop, and power down all four engines.  Even though
the engines have stopped, I can still hear their
monotonous throbbing echoing in my almost deaf ears. 
One of the ground personnel opens the nose hatch, and
wanting to look "cool" to the many bystanders like
Steve McQueen in the movie the War Lover, I casually
swing out of the nose hatch and drop six feet to the
ground.  A resounding applause rises from the crowd,
and I shed my best "awe shucks" expression.
So this is what it was like to fly on the "Queen," the
"Queen of the Skies.�  No other airplane is as great
and graceful in flight and it is no small wonder that
large crowds gather wherever she lands, why cars and
trucks screech to a stop in an effort to catch but
just a glimpse of this awesome machine.  She is a rich
part of our history, our heritage, a flying monument
for all those who fought and died over enemy skies to
keep this county free.

*****

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 23:13:04 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:13:04 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <3D90C7B9.2BF53159@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3D90AB30.21018.273C8D1@localhost>

> BJ ...
> 
> I once worked three days at the SFO Airport (for free) when the
> Collings Foundation had their B17 and B24 there for exhibit. I
> stationed a 303rd combatant R/O in the Radio Room to answer questions
> as the public went through the plane from nose to tail. Collings came
> up to me and said, "Get that %#&(% guy OUT of that Radiio Room! He is
> slowing up my people going through the plane and that costs me MONEY!"

 Yes, I remember reading your account of that unfortunate occurrance 
a couple years ago, (I think you posted it in the guest comments or 
something), so each time I go to see the plane, I've been watching 
for similar things.  However each time they have been here, they have 
all seemed pretty nice. I'd prefer to support the CAF plane, but they 
don't seem to get up this way.  Only the Collins and the EA-Aluminum 
Overcast plane seem to come up here, at least since I've lived here, 
or if they did come, I missed it.
   I tried to see the CAF plane once down in Fredrick, Md, but they 
were keeping the plane behind the flight line, so you couldn't get to 
it.  We even had a reservation to fly in it, but they canceled the 
flight.  So I never got to see it, except to see if flying in the 
demonstrations, which was pretty neat.  I actually got some pictures 
of it (I'm referring to the Sentimental Journey, which I think is one 
of the CAF planes) flying too, but they aren't as good as the ones I 
took yesterday.  
    Anyway, I remembered your opinion of the Collins people, but it's 
pretty much the only chance we get to see B-17s up here.  They come 
here every year, and this year they are making 4 stops near by.  If 
the CAF ever comes by, I'll be sure to visit it too.
    BTW,  I see that the CAF changed it's name.   Political 
correctness strikes again.   :-)  

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 23:32:59 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:32:59 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <20020924214735.14768.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3D90C7B9.2BF53159@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3D90AFDB.11490.28603E6@localhost>

>  Flying on the Fort was a dream
> come true, but watching that 74-year old 91st vet,
> Louis LaHood, become a 24 year old bomber pilot again
> was priceless!
> 
> I know I've posted the story about that flight before,
> but I will do so again if anyone cares to read it.

Thanks.  Nice story.
   I only managed to talk to one Vet yesterday, and he did most of 
his flying in Florida looking for subs.  However I was sitting at the 
side of the top turret, looking into the cockpit, when a cane popped 
up through the opening from the nose area.  At the other end of the 
cane was a old fellow who was barely able to crawl, let alone walk.  
To make progress, he had to reach back, and drag his legs up over the 
obstacles.  As he crawled by, I asked him if I could help, but he 
said that he just had to do this by himself.  He said that the last 
time he had seen a B-17 was when he flew in one in 1945 in Austria.  
I tried to get him to explain, but either he was hard of hearing, and 
didn't hear my question, or perhaps he just wanted to re-live his 
memories by himself.  He just crawled past me, and somehow made it 
through the bomb bay and on through the plane.
   From his comment, I assume that he must have been a refugee or 
something.  I know that a lot of B-17s were used to transport refuges 
after VE-day.  In fact I have a picture of one of the 303rd planes 
that my father flew, that was later transferred to another group, and 
had another phase of it's life transporting civilians.
   Anyway, I wish the fellow could have shared his story, but he 
didn't.

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Sep 24 23:42:14 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:42:14 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost>
Message-ID: 

>Great photos, Bill, like 909 was dusting you off...what type of camera were you
using and where were you standing?  Exciting stuff!  I had the extreme pleasure
of flying in 909 from Stewart to West Palm Beach and it was incredibly
reminiscent...an added pleasure because it was a treat.  Managed to get myself
into my old bombardier perch...well, you know the rest.  Cheers, Bob Hand>
> 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 00:16:01 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:16:01 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine"
In-Reply-To: <3D90C7B9.2BF53159@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

> I read you, Bill...first time I saw 9-0-9 at West Palm I was asked for six
bucks to board the Lady (no credit cards, please) and I answered that I carried
no money. No tickee, no shirtee.  I asked the gatekeeper how much he thought it
was worth for me to climb aboard and fly a single mission into Germany....no
answer....how about thirty five of the same....no answer.  The only thing worse
is a CAP Cadet screaming at you, "Get away from that airplane!!!) Shouldn't have
torn my hair out...it never came back.  Cheers, Bob Hand   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 01:43:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:43:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <3D90AFDB.11490.28603E6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020925004343.18829.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill Jones:  I know what you mean about the man with
the cane, they like to relive the memories without us
young guys around.  Here's one of my favorite stories.
 I was 15 and flying a duel cross country with my
instructor by the name of Oren Lauer.  We were flying
into the East Alton (IL) Airport in 1973, and my
instructor went nuts.  He slapped my hands away from
the throttle, took over the yoke, and started swearing
under his breath.  We were only 3/4s downwind when he
slipped the plane, landed on the runway, stopped, and
got out an ran over to this big, four-engine airplane
I didn't know much about.  I only had about 20 hours
of flying time, but I knew enough you never just
stopped your plane on a runway and got out!!!  I
called the tower, told him I wanted to taxi in the
vicinity of the BIG BIRD since my instructor had
obviously gone out of his mind.  As I was taxiing, I
saw my instructor jump up into the nose of the the
BIRG BIRD.  When I got out of our 150 (OK, Heller,
don't laugh!!) I went over to this BIG BIRD and the
guys who owned it came running out of the terminal.  I
said I'd go up and retrieve my instructor, but they
encouraged me to leave him alone, which I did.  We
spent about 30 minutes watching Oren go from the nose
to the tail of that plane.  Oren was in his 60s and
still managed to make it past the tail wheel.  At one
point we watched Oren standing in front of the right
waist window with tears flowing freely.  Finally, we
we got Oren out, we went to lunch with the owners, and
here is the story Oren old us.  Loren had been a right
waist gunner and the last time he had seen a BIG BIRD
was in the summer of 1944 enroute to Berlin.  He and
his plane were hit by flak, he was unconscious all the
way back to England.  When he woke up in the hospital
three days later, he learned his entire crew had
either been killed on the mission or had died of their
wounds after they returned.  Two weeks later Oren
committed suicide by crashing his plane on short
final.  He found out he had inoperable cancer, and
just nosed it over.  I always have regretted not
finding out more about the man.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 01:31:26 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:31:26 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D90CB9E.20080.2F27D21@localhost>

> >Great photos, Bill, like 909 was dusting you off...what type of
> >camera were you
> using and where were you standing?  Exciting stuff!  

Just one of those Sony Digicams (740).  After taking video, I just 
captured stills from the video.
   Funny, about the "exciting" part.  The reason the pictures were as 
good as they were, was because the airport was so small, that the 
plane came over VERY LOW.  It WOULD have been very exciting, except 
that I had my eyes glued to the viewfinder.  After the plane flew 
over, my wife was saying "WOW... I'll bet that was exciting for you", 
and then I realized that I had basically missed the entire thing, 
except for the SOUND, which was something special.  Luckily, the 
plane landed, and then took off again, then made a low level almost 
touch and go over the airfield, so I had 5 more chances.  I (and a 
half dozen other similar people) were on the move, driving from one 
end of the runway to the other, as the thing left and came back.  On 
these chances, I managed to keep my left eye open while filming with 
the right eye.  So I didn't miss it all.  
    I almost decided to ride in the plane, but decided that I would 
get more lasting memories by getting pictures. I'm not sure that I 
made the right decision, but having that thing fly over at 200' or 
less 6 times was really something special. On the touch&go, I was off 
to the left of the runway, and he banked left directly over my car. 
If I had been in the plane, I wouldn't have seen anything. 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 02:17:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:17:45 +0000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
Message-ID: <20020925011749.VBBX29048.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc19>

If any veteran is ever in the vicinity T-Bird from the Lone Star Flight Museum 
rest assured that you will be a welcome and honored guest.  It is the opinion 
and  feeling of all of my fellow volunteers and in particular this humble 
weekend warrior that it is an honor to be able to spend the time doing what we 
do and being able to comemerate what you all did so that we could be free.  
(and of course the view from the nose during takeoff is better than a roller 
coaster)

Steve Siegmund
Humble Volunteer- Lone Star Flight Museum  
> BJ ...
> 
> I once worked three days at the SFO Airport (for free) when the Collings
> Foundation had their B17 and B24 there for exhibit. I stationed a 303rd
> combatant R/O in the Radio Room to answer questions as the public went
> through the plane from nose to tail. Collings came up to me and said,
> "Get that %#&(% guy OUT of that Radiio Room! He is slowing up my people
> going through the plane and that costs me MONEY!"  I told Collings that
> the fellow in the Radio Room was a real combatant in the B17 in WW#2 and
> that the public LOVES what he has to say. Collings retort to me was,
> "I'm here to make money and YOU are holding me up!"
> 
> He was the same Collings to whom I introduced my wife, son, and
> daughter-in-law at the entrance where everyone was paying $7 to enter
> the area. My three family members PAID their $7 each TO COLLINGS
> HIMSELF!  (No concern for the fact that three actual COMBATANTS in that
> airplane were helping him FOR FREE).
> 
> After three days of working with them at the SFO Airport, I LEFT!
> 
> When the CAF came to the Half Moon Bay Airport some years ago, I aided
> them in their work. They charged $5 for people to go through the plane
> and their CREWMEMBERS were everywhere speaking with the public.
> (Collings crew were young upstarts with a surly attitude when asked
> questions about their work). The Confederate Air Force fellows stayed
> THREE extra days because the public loved them so much.  Due to this, a
> local businessman and good friend of mine PAID for their lodging and
> food for those three extra days. The CAF does a GREAT job.  Collings
> merely wants to sell JUNK while he HURRIES the public through his
> planes.
> 
> By the way, the combat R/O who did such fine work was our own PAUL
> TOGNETTI from the 303rd.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Jones wrote:
> 
> >    Yesterday, I went down to Lewiston/Auburn airport here in Maine,
> > to see the Collins Foundation "Nine-O-Nine" B-17.  Usually, it comes
> > into Portland, but the bigger airport is a bit more confused since
> > 9/11, so this year it is at a smaller airport, which was great.
> > Because the airport is smaller, you could get fairly close to the
> > runways when it was up flying.  I took a few pictures, which are at :
> >
> > http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17.html
> >
> >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
> >
> >  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> >  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> >
> 
> 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 02:31:19 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:31:19 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
References: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost> <3D90CB9E.20080.2F27D21@localhost>
Message-ID: <002901c26433$400eb2d0$b392b440@altonmain>

Hi Bill,
I was just looking over your web page, and you have certainly added some
nice photos and text since the last time when I actually had a real good
look.
You change it quite often, I believe,and throw in special web pages every
not and then for photos such as these.
Thnx,
Gordy.

PS: There have certainly been some excellent posts here lately.
Keep up the good work, in keeping this one of the most informative talk
rings on the 'net.
We really do have some knowledgeable people on here. You are all an asset.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Jones" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW

>
>
> > >Great photos, Bill, like 909 was dusting you off...what type of
> > >camera were you
> > using and where were you standing?  Exciting stuff!
>
> Just one of those Sony Digicams (740).  After taking video, I just
> captured stills from the video.
>    Funny, about the "exciting" part.  The reason the pictures were as
> good as they were, was because the airport was so small, that the
> plane came over VERY LOW.  It WOULD have been very exciting, except
> that I had my eyes glued to the viewfinder.  After the plane flew
> over, my wife was saying "WOW... I'll bet that was exciting for you",
> and then I realized that I had basically missed the entire thing,
> except for the SOUND, which was something special.  Luckily, the
> plane landed, and then took off again, then made a low level almost
> touch and go over the airfield, so I had 5 more chances.  I (and a
> half dozen other similar people) were on the move, driving from one
> end of the runway to the other, as the thing left and came back.  On
> these chances, I managed to keep my left eye open while filming with
> the right eye.  So I didn't miss it all.
>     I almost decided to ride in the plane, but decided that I would
> get more lasting memories by getting pictures. I'm not sure that I
> made the right decision, but having that thing fly over at 200' or
> less 6 times was really something special. On the touch&go, I was off
> to the left of the runway, and he banked left directly over my car.
> If I had been in the plane, I wouldn't have seen anything.
>
>
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>
>
>
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 04:44:04 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:44:04 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
References: <20020925011749.VBBX29048.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc19>
Message-ID: <000701c26445$cc220da0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Steve Siegmund
Thanks for your comment. I know what you mean. The T-bird has been here both
at Holman field and at Fleming Field South St, Paul
The most recent August 3rd and 4th , 2002 for the CAF  local chapter air
show. I spent 2 sessions in the waist section of the plane answering
questions and explaining . There was great interest by the people going
thru, we had 3 or 4 guys in the plane all the time--all were from the 303rd.
I can not tell you how many times I got a "thank you for what you in WWII"
from people of all ages, even teen- agers.. I have a special interest in the
"T-Bird"--Although the plane was not assigned to our crew, but being in the
lead navigator pool on a couple of occasions I was assigned to fly some
night weather recons out to the west of England. Also, on the Dec11th 1994
mission to Ludwigshaven Mannheim, I was in the plane that the T-Bird has a
midair collison with--both planes survived. I gave a copy of that mission to
a gal from the local CAF, who was to give it to the crew on Mon. or Tues.
when the crew returned to pick up the plane and return it to Galveston.
Did they erver receive it at the museum?
LeRoy Christenson
Navigator  303rd, 359th Sqdn
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW

> If any veteran is ever in the vicinity T-Bird from the Lone Star Flight
Museum
> rest assured that you will be a welcome and honored guest.  It is the
opinion
> and  feeling of all of my fellow volunteers and in particular this humble
> weekend warrior that it is an honor to be able to spend the time doing
what we
> do and being able to comemerate what you all did so that we could be free.
> (and of course the view from the nose during takeoff is better than a
roller
> coaster)
>
> Steve Siegmund
> Humble Volunteer- Lone Star Flight Museum
> > BJ ...
> >
> > I once worked three days at the SFO Airport (for free) when the Collings
> > Foundation had their B17 and B24 there for exhibit. I stationed a 303rd
> > combatant R/O in the Radio Room to answer questions as the public went
> > through the plane from nose to tail. Collings came up to me and said,
> > "Get that %#&(% guy OUT of that Radiio Room! He is slowing up my people
> > going through the plane and that costs me MONEY!"  I told Collings that
> > the fellow in the Radio Room was a real combatant in the B17 in WW#2 and
> > that the public LOVES what he has to say. Collings retort to me was,
> > "I'm here to make money and YOU are holding me up!"
> >
> > He was the same Collings to whom I introduced my wife, son, and
> > daughter-in-law at the entrance where everyone was paying $7 to enter
> > the area. My three family members PAID their $7 each TO COLLINGS
> > HIMSELF!  (No concern for the fact that three actual COMBATANTS in that
> > airplane were helping him FOR FREE).
> >
> > After three days of working with them at the SFO Airport, I LEFT!
> >
> > When the CAF came to the Half Moon Bay Airport some years ago, I aided
> > them in their work. They charged $5 for people to go through the plane
> > and their CREWMEMBERS were everywhere speaking with the public.
> > (Collings crew were young upstarts with a surly attitude when asked
> > questions about their work). The Confederate Air Force fellows stayed
> > THREE extra days because the public loved them so much.  Due to this, a
> > local businessman and good friend of mine PAID for their lodging and
> > food for those three extra days. The CAF does a GREAT job.  Collings
> > merely wants to sell JUNK while he HURRIES the public through his
> > planes.
> >
> > By the way, the combat R/O who did such fine work was our own PAUL
> > TOGNETTI from the 303rd.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Jones wrote:
> >
> > >    Yesterday, I went down to Lewiston/Auburn airport here in Maine,
> > > to see the Collins Foundation "Nine-O-Nine" B-17.  Usually, it comes
> > > into Portland, but the bigger airport is a bit more confused since
> > > 9/11, so this year it is at a smaller airport, which was great.
> > > Because the airport is smaller, you could get fairly close to the
> > > runways when it was up flying.  I took a few pictures, which are at :
> > >
> > > http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17.html
> > >
> > >  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
> > >
> > >  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
> > >  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
> > >
> >
> >
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 06:50:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:50:31 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks
Message-ID: <00a401c26457$7665a360$5356b5d1@default>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C26425.2ABEA560
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="x-user-defined"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Was flying into Zurich last week and as we made a turn over Frankfurt the
cloud cover disappeared and I could see Germany about 30000 ft below.
As I craned my neck to see the ground below me I thought about all you guys
in the 303rd. not much more than young kids then, probably flying thru that
same airspace.
I will never, no matter how much I read or listen to you guys talk, have any
idea what it was like. But then I guess thats why yall were there, thank
God, so we wouldnt have to know.
 'Just doin a job' as you guys put it.
Just sayin thanks again for doin such a good job. Hats off to all of you.

Oh yeah, saw a Ju - 52 circling around Gstaad real low. Im so dumb I thought
it was a Ford Tri Motor when I first looked up.

------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C26425.2ABEA560
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="x-user-defined"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Was flying into Zurich last week and as we made =
a turn=20
over Frankfurt the cloud cover disappeared and I could see Germany about =
30000=20
ft below. 
As I craned my neck to see the ground below me I =
thought=20
about all you guys in the 303rd. not much more than young kids =

then, probably flying thru that same airspace. 
I will never, no matter how much I read or =
listen to you=20
guys talk, have any idea what it was like. But then I guess =
thats why=20
yall were there, thank God, so we wouldnt have to know.
 'Just doin a job' as you guys put it. =

Just sayin thanks again for doin such a good =
job. Hats off=20
to all of you.

Oh yeah, saw a Ju - 52 circling around Gstaad =
real low. Im=20
so dumb I thought it was a Ford Tri Motor when I first looked=20
up.

------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C26425.2ABEA560--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 12:04:09 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:04:09 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks
In-Reply-To: <00a401c26457$7665a360$5356b5d1@default>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3115782250_9512077
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Yo, Bill:  I know there=B9s a bunch of us ol=B9 303rd guys who thank you for
your kind words. Cheers, Bob Hand

--B_3115782250_9512077
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Re: [303rd-Talk] Thanks

Yo, Bill:  I know there’s a bunch of us ol=
217; 303rd guys who thank you for your kind words. Cheers, Bob Hand

--B_3115782250_9512077--

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 13:36:41 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:36:41 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: <20020925004343.18829.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Great story, Kevin.  There's some sort of magic thing goes on at the sight
of the Big Ass Bird and the throb of those engines.  My first real memory of
her happened as the truck dumped a dozen of us new guys at a half-empty
barracks at Molesworth.  A three-Fort element of tattered and battered a/c
peeled off at minimum height and we all stood fascinated.  Anxiety ran high
as we pondered our future...especially when we learned that the mission
quota had been upped to 35....whoa!!!!  Cheers, Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 18:01:54 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks
In-Reply-To: <00a401c26457$7665a360$5356b5d1@default>
Message-ID: <20020925170154.11630.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill:  I had the opportunity in 1999 of flying from
Heathrow to Frankfurt.  As I was boarding the British
Airways flight, the pilot noticed my painted A-2, "The
Miss Behaven," painted out in the colors of the 532nd
BS, 381st BG.  We got to chatting and he said how
would you like to come up into the cockpit after
takeoff.  "Boy, did I!!," I responded.  Climing out of
Heathrow, crossing the Channel, and circling over
Frankfurt in the cockpit of the plane was absolutely
awesome, to see that airspace the way you veteran
pilots saw it (minus a few Me's and Fws and walls of
flak.)  It was one of the more special flights I have
ever taken!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 18:10:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:10:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob Hand and All
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20020925171057.26132.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

I get around a B-17 and I am another person entirely -
totally transfixed!!  About a year ago I was sitting
in the cockpit of a CAF B-25 at the downtown Kansas
City Airport, and I heard it!  It was faint at first
and in the distance, but I heard it through the thin
skin of the B-25 and the crowd below.  I climbed out
of that B-25 quicker than the 18 year old crews who
flew her, and just as I stepped from under her wing, I
look to the north of the field and there she was,
CAF's Sentimental Journey about 200 feet off the
ground making a low level pass down the centerline of
the runway - really "beating up the grass" I think you
guys used to say.  She roared down the field, pulled,
then up esposing a full view of her sleek lines.  I'm
not kidding you guys at all when I say ALL activity
and sound on that tarmac ceased when she flew buy - a
sort of reverence.  I will never forget the faces of
the many veterans who had been invited there to watch
her come in that day.  Guys, there wasn't a dry eye in
the house.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Sep 25 21:56:54 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:56:54 -0400
Subject: Not 303rd related, was  Re: [303rd-Talk] Collins "Nine-O-Nine" at KLEW
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3D905FB0.2026.14CD179@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D91EAD6.1206.2239DBC@localhost>

> >Great photos, Bill, like 909 was dusting you off...what type of
> >camera were you
> using and where were you standing?  Exciting stuff! 

Following is not 303rd related, but may be of interest. 
Yesterday, Bob asked about the camera used to take the 909 pictures.
I didn't think it was of iterest at the time, but just in case, I 
have a little web page with some other pictures I've taken with this 
camera.   I live directly under a military training route, and the 
jets fly over quite low, sometimes as low as 200' AGL, but usually at 
500'AGL. 
    It's not as easy getting a picture of an F-16 flying at 500mph, 
but I've got a few.  They can be seen at :

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/vr840.html   

Pictures aren't nearly as good as the B-17 pictures, but I was pretty 
happy with them considering how fast they were flying by.  

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               

 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 00:19:33 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:19:33 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Auf 2 Branson
Message-ID: 

    Hal; You will be missed. A reunion won't be the same without you. I hope 
you recover rapidly and completely. 
     The Undersigned will be here Monday Sept. 30 but not here again until 
Thursday 10 October 2002. Please wear your name tag in Branson. My mind is 
gone so I won't remember you. I'll wear mine upside down so I can look down 
and see who I am. if I can find my glasses.
     Best Wishes,
        The Undersigned, Jack Rencher

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 05:34:36 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:34:36 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks (airspace)
Message-ID: <00c001c265df$30152640$9ae86741@default>

splasher 6
I have flown that airspace many times in the past but it never really had
much meaning until I discovered this website a few years ago. There are so
many wonderful people involved who contribute so much of their time and
energy that these things will not be lost. I am honored to learn first hand
of those that flew those skies and all who kept them flying. .( and to Gary
who keeps this site flying)   That airspace is viewed by me in a whole new
light now.   It is truly Hallowed Ground .. er... airspace

Hoyt

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 19:01:53 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:01:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks (airspace)
In-Reply-To: <00c001c265df$30152640$9ae86741@default>
Message-ID: <20020927180153.19512.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

Gary does an incredible job with this website, Bill,
and doesn't get paid a dime.  He and his wife are a
real credit to the 303rd and 8th AF.

As we were climbing out over the Channel in that
British Airways flight, I could definitely see
hundreds of Heinkels and FW 190s coming directly at us
with Spits and Hurricans mixing it up with ME 109s.  I
could see the Heavies at landfall out, and the
battered remains of those cripples returning to base. 
I had chills running down my spine for the entire
duration of that flight.  We had to make six
"circuits" around Frankfort due to congestion on the
ground.  As we circled, we flew over Eindoven,
Nijmegen and Arnhem, Wilhelmshaven, Bremen, Essen, and
Cologne.  It was an incredible experience witnessing
that airspace from the cockpit!
Kevin
--- Bill Hoyt  wrote:
> splasher 6
> I have flown that airspace many times in the past
> but it never really had
> much meaning until I discovered this website a few
> years ago. There are so
> many wonderful people involved who contribute so
> much of their time and
> energy that these things will not be lost. I am
> honored to learn first hand
> of those that flew those skies and all who kept them
> flying. .( and to Gary
> who keeps this site flying)   That airspace is
> viewed by me in a whole new
> light now.   It is truly Hallowed Ground .. er...
> airspace
> 
> Hoyt
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 21:39:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:39:28 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <8c.1ee2bfa3.2ac61c00@aol.com>

For 58 years I've been curious about the red-knobed pin with the red 
remove-before-flight ribbon which usually protruded from the first pilot's 
control column when the B-17 was parked on the hardstand. A flight engineer 
once told me it was a control surface lock to prevent wind damage to control 
surfaces but I don't remember whether that one pin protected all the surfaces 
(ailerons, elevators, and rudder) or whether there were other locking devices 
involved.
I would appreciate it if one of you old guys would clue me in.
Ol' Bob

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 22:20:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:20:22 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <197.ded9baa.2ac62596@aol.com>

Ol' Bob
     The ailerons are cabled together, so if one was clamped so in wouldn't 
move in the wind the one on the other wing would not move (much) either.
The rudder was independent. As are the elevators. One of their names was 
"gust locks" Planes were subject to sudden crashes when one took off without 
removing them. Hence the red flags hanging on them. In fact it was usually 
the last mistake that pilot ever made.
     Best Wishes,
        Ol' Jack 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 22:30:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:30:22 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <46.2e6c16a2.2ac627ee@aol.com>

Ol' Bob
     There would be a lock in the cockpit controls that locked them all 
three.  The ailerons and elevators were controlled by the wheel. Turn it for 
the ailerons and back and forth for the elevators. The rudders was controlled 
by the rudder pedals about the some place as your clutch and brake. One 
skillfully designed locking device could lock them all 3 at once. even if one 
was drunk it would be hard to take off with that big old thing on there.  By 
By again
  Jack

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 22:41:55 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: <197.ded9baa.2ac62596@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020927214155.18276.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  When you got airborne, was it impossible to
remove the control surface lock?  Or did you mean by
the time a pilots needed those controls, he would not
have enough time to remove the lock before catastophe
struck?

Thanks, Jack, for all of your great explanations to us
young guys.  I know I am more than just a little
curious about these issues.  

Have fun in Branson, wish I could be there!  If you
ever want to hold a reunion in Anchorage, I would be
pleased to help with all arrangements.  In the line of
work I have, I am sure I could get great rates on
everything from hotels to sight seeing trips.  And
with Elmendorf AFB here with the 3rd Fighter Wing, I
know we would have a lot of support from them.  This
is a serious offer.
Kevin

--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Ol' Bob
>      The ailerons are cabled together, so if one was
> clamped so in wouldn't 
> move in the wind the one on the other wing would not
> move (much) either.
> The rudder was independent. As are the elevators.
> One of their names was 
> "gust locks" Planes were subject to sudden crashes
> when one took off without 
> removing them. Hence the red flags hanging on them.
> In fact it was usually 
> the last mistake that pilot ever made.
>      Best Wishes,
>         Ol' Jack 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Sep 27 23:44:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:44:34 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
References: <20020927214155.18276.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D94DF51.26E99786@attglobal.net>

KP ...

With control locks in place one seldom got airborne except
to be on the way to a crash!

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Jack:  When you got airborne, was it impossible to
> remove the control surface lock?  Or did you mean by
> the time a pilots needed those controls, he would not
> have enough time to remove the lock before catastophe
> struck?
>
> Thanks, Jack, for all of your great explanations to us
> young guys.  I know I am more than just a little
> curious about these issues.
>
> Have fun in Branson, wish I could be there!  If you
> ever want to hold a reunion in Anchorage, I would be
> pleased to help with all arrangements.  In the line of
> work I have, I am sure I could get great rates on
> everything from hotels to sight seeing trips.  And
> with Elmendorf AFB here with the 3rd Fighter Wing, I
> know we would have a lot of support from them.  This
> is a serious offer.
> Kevin
>
> --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > Ol' Bob
> >      The ailerons are cabled together, so if one was
> > clamped so in wouldn't
> > move in the wind the one on the other wing would not
> > move (much) either.
> > The rudder was independent. As are the elevators.
> > One of their names was
> > "gust locks" Planes were subject to sudden crashes
> > when one took off without
> > removing them. Hence the red flags hanging on them.
> > In fact it was usually
> > the last mistake that pilot ever made.
> >      Best Wishes,
> >         Ol' Jack
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 01:31:08 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rasinman)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:31:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: Kevin Pearson 's message of Fri, 27 Sep
 2002 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <7162-3D94F84C-3396@storefull-2356.public.lawson.webtv.net>

Any pilotwho tried to get off with the "red " wouldt get a second chance
to try it.!!!!!

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 01:47:11 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: <3D94DF51.26E99786@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20020928004711.36740.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill:  I just saw Jack's second reply to this
question.  So early models had a lock that only
controlled the ailerons and later models controlled
ailerson, elevators and flaps?  Is that right?  The
Model 299 that crashed on takeoff during trials was
blamed on control locks and I don't believe she got
airborn.
Thanks, Bill!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 02:24:21 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:24:21 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <162.14a9ae99.2ac65ec5@aol.com>

Kevin,
     I was trying unsuccessfully to be a little funny. Yes, If one was 
strong, had his seat belt on tight and a few thousand feet under him he 
probably could get the control lock off if it was in the cockpit. The problem 
is, you could never get a few thousand feet under you.  You would never get 
it off the ground. You would crack up on take off 9999 times out of 10000 
attempted takeoffs.

     Thanks for your invitation for a reunion in Alaska.  Our 2003 one is 
tentatively set for the Portland Oregon area. The 04 one should be in the 
East. I will pass your invitation on to the Board of Directors. It might be a 
bit expensive for all us OLD goats to get up there.
     Jack.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 02:52:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:52:49 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <180.e846ebe.2ac66571@aol.com>

Young persons be aware. There was two kinds gust locks.  Some were just a 
padded wooden vice that clamped on the edge of the control surface and the 
wing area beside it.  Then there was a more complicated one that locked the 
controls in the cockpit. I don't see how anyone could attempt a take off with 
the later type. They would be in the way greatly. I think you meant the locks 
went on the alienors, Rudder and elevators. I don't think they were needed or 
used on most flaps. 
  Jack.

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 08:11:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:11:22 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
References: <20020928004711.36740.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D955619.55B8565A@attglobal.net>

Lot of talk about control locks. Control locks were
necessary MERELY to keep various control surfaces from
flapping in the wind when the plane was in a static mode on
the ground. Such flapping could damage the control surfaces,
(especially if the wind velocity was high enough),  and also
their proper operation. EVERY pilot of an early vintage
knows about control locks AND KNOWS THAT THEY MUST BE TAKEN
OFF PRIOR TO FLIGHT!  It was part of the walk-around any
sensible pilot does prior to flying his aircraft. There does
not have to be so much mundane queries anent control locks.
THEY WERE A NECESSARY PART OF ALL AIRCRAFT!  Even today in
modern jets there are in certain cases, control locks.
Seldom, however, are they of the external type which were
slid along the edges where the various controls moved.

Strange no one asked about the red ribbons handing down from
the pitot static tubes which ALSO HAD TO BE REMOVED PRIOR TO
FLIGHT!  There have been MANY stories about errant pilots
who did not remove their pitot-static tube covers.

Cheers!

WCH

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Bill:  I just saw Jack's second reply to this
> question.  So early models had a lock that only
> controlled the ailerons and later models controlled
> ailerson, elevators and flaps?  Is that right?  The
> Model 299 that crashed on takeoff during trials was
> blamed on control locks and I don't believe she got
> airborn.
> Thanks, Bill!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Sep 28 09:40:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:40:34 +0200
Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <000a01c266ca$c12a5880$894779c3@default>

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Heller" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks

> KP ...
>
> With control locks in place one seldom got airborne except
> to be on the way to a crash!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Sir William von Bsiebsehn
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Pearson wrote:
>
> > Jack:  When you got airborne, was it impossible to
> > remove the control surface lock?  Or did you mean by
> > the time a pilots needed those controls, he would not
> > have enough time to remove the lock before catastophe
> > struck?
> >
> > Thanks, Jack, for all of your great explanations to us
> > young guys.  I know I am more than just a little
> > curious about these issues.
> >
> > Have fun in Branson, wish I could be there!  If you
> > ever want to hold a reunion in Anchorage, I would be
> > pleased to help with all arrangements.  In the line of
> > work I have, I am sure I could get great rates on
> > everything from hotels to sight seeing trips.  And
> > with Elmendorf AFB here with the 3rd Fighter Wing, I
> > know we would have a lot of support from them.  This
> > is a serious offer.
> > Kevin
> >
> > --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > > Ol' Bob
> > >      The ailerons are cabled together, so if one was
> > > clamped so in wouldn't
> > > move in the wind the one on the other wing would not
> > > move (much) either.
> > > The rudder was independent. As are the elevators.
> > > One of their names was
> > > "gust locks" Planes were subject to sudden crashes
> > > when one took off without
> > > removing them. Hence the red flags hanging on them.
> > > In fact it was usually
> > > the last mistake that pilot ever made.
> > >      Best Wishes,
> > >         Ol' Jack
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> Hans Reusink. Dear friends.
We had an accident at Kastrupp Airport near Copenhagen.
They wanted to take of from Kastrupp,but forgot to take of these red vanes.
On board, they had a famous movieplayer, cannot remember her name., the
plane was a D.C. 3
The captain was Mr Geissendorffer, very famous captain, already before
worldwar 2
It became a hot item, when we took our course with K.L.M.
Everybody involved in that crash got killed.
Wish you all the best and lots of fun in Branson.
> =====================================================.===========
> Deze e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd
op virussen.
> Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst
waar op wordt gecontroleerd.
>
>

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 29 00:06:21 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 16:06:21 -0700
Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
References: <000a01c266ca$c12a5880$894779c3@default>
Message-ID: <3D9635EC.10DC263@attglobal.net>

HR ...

What was Captain Giessendorfer famous for? A famous Captain does not take off
with control locks on. You do not get famous that way.

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn

hans reusink wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Heller" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
>
> > KP ...
> >
> > With control locks in place one seldom got airborne except
> > to be on the way to a crash!
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Sir William von Bsiebsehn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin Pearson wrote:
> >
> > > Jack:  When you got airborne, was it impossible to
> > > remove the control surface lock?  Or did you mean by
> > > the time a pilots needed those controls, he would not
> > > have enough time to remove the lock before catastophe
> > > struck?
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jack, for all of your great explanations to us
> > > young guys.  I know I am more than just a little
> > > curious about these issues.
> > >
> > > Have fun in Branson, wish I could be there!  If you
> > > ever want to hold a reunion in Anchorage, I would be
> > > pleased to help with all arrangements.  In the line of
> > > work I have, I am sure I could get great rates on
> > > everything from hotels to sight seeing trips.  And
> > > with Elmendorf AFB here with the 3rd Fighter Wing, I
> > > know we would have a lot of support from them.  This
> > > is a serious offer.
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > > --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > > > Ol' Bob
> > > >      The ailerons are cabled together, so if one was
> > > > clamped so in wouldn't
> > > > move in the wind the one on the other wing would not
> > > > move (much) either.
> > > > The rudder was independent. As are the elevators.
> > > > One of their names was
> > > > "gust locks" Planes were subject to sudden crashes
> > > > when one took off without
> > > > removing them. Hence the red flags hanging on them.
> > > > In fact it was usually
> > > > the last mistake that pilot ever made.
> > > >      Best Wishes,
> > > >         Ol' Jack
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > Hans Reusink. Dear friends.
> We had an accident at Kastrupp Airport near Copenhagen.
> They wanted to take of from Kastrupp,but forgot to take of these red vanes.
> On board, they had a famous movieplayer, cannot remember her name., the
> plane was a D.C. 3
> The captain was Mr Geissendorffer, very famous captain, already before
> worldwar 2
> It became a hot item, when we took our course with K.L.M.
> Everybody involved in that crash got killed.
> Wish you all the best and lots of fun in Branson.
> > =====================================================.===========
> > Deze e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd
> op virussen.
> > Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst
> waar op wordt gecontroleerd.
> >
> >

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 29 00:44:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 19:44:40 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
Message-ID: <153.14e69692.2ac798e8@aol.com>

so what of pitot tube ribbons not removed??

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 29 02:10:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rasinman)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: IBSPEC@aol.com's message of Sat, 28 Sep 2002 19:44:40 EDT
Message-ID: <10685-3D96531C-1749@storefull-2357.public.lawson.webtv.net>

Yiu =E7ant get any air speed reading to know what to do!

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 29 07:19:20 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:19:20 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
References: <153.14e69692.2ac798e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D969B69.970B333A@attglobal.net>

If you remove the ribbons it matters not .... the covers are
still over the pitot statics tubes. The ribbons merely
identify them and are used to pull them off, etc.  It is the
COVER which COVER the pitot static tubes that matter. NOT
the red ribbons. These covers are to keep dirt and other
debris out of the pitot static intake area of the tube and
are only used on the ground when the plane is in a static
(no pun intended) state.

Cheers!

IBSPEC@aol.com wrote:

> so what of pitot tube ribbons not removed??

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Sep 29 11:36:36 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 06:36:36 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: <10685-3D96531C-1749@storefull-2357.public.lawson.webtv.net>
Message-ID: 

> Yiu =E7ant get any air speed reading to know what to do!
>=20
>=20
Also a good idea to kick the chocks out of in front of the wheels.  Cheers,
Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 30 01:51:29 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:51:29 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
References: 
Message-ID: <000901c2681b$84804640$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

not neccesary if you are doing a vertical take off!
L christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hand" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks

> Yiu �ant get any air speed reading to know what to do!
>
>
Also a good idea to kick the chocks out of in front of the wheels.  Cheers,
Bob Hand

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 30 04:34:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:34:22 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] control surface locks
Message-ID: <007801c26836$54e1c4c0$24e76741@default>

guess if your gonna forget anything in a preflight as mentioned, forgetting
the wheel chocks would be the safest huh?

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 30 17:32:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks
In-Reply-To: <162.14a9ae99.2ac65ec5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020930163216.9598.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

Portland is a nice area and is a bit more accessible
than Alaska.  And I WILL come to that one.  I had Gary
send me some pictures of you guys so I could see for
myself who I was chatting with.  I would very much
enjoy meeting you all in person.  Prior to moving to
Alaska, I lived in St. Joseph, Missouri, about five
hours drive from Branson.  If I still lived there, I
would be joining you!

Thanks for the info on the control lock.  Us young
guys have all seen the pictures in the books, but
there is nothing like hearing it from you guys
first-hand.  
Kevin
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin,
>      I was trying unsuccessfully to be a little
> funny. Yes, If one was 
> strong, had his seat belt on tight and a few
> thousand feet under him he 
> probably could get the control lock off if it was in
> the cockpit. The problem 
> is, you could never get a few thousand feet under
> you.  You would never get 
> it off the ground. You would crack up on take off
> 9999 times out of 10000 
> attempted takeoffs.
> 
>      Thanks for your invitation for a reunion in
> Alaska.  Our 2003 one is 
> tentatively set for the Portland Oregon area. The 04
> one should be in the 
> East. I will pass your invitation on to the Board of
> Directors. It might be a 
> bit expensive for all us OLD goats to get up there.
>      Jack.
> 

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Sep 30 17:45:08 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pitot Tube Covers and Bill Heller
In-Reply-To: <3D955619.55B8565A@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20020930164508.36918.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill:  I know this talk about Control Surface Locks
sounds "mundane" to you, but I have seen control
surface locks pictured in books on many occasions, and
I thought I knew how they were used.  After this
discussion, I now know I was wrong.  I am very
interested in all that has been said about them, and
isn't that the purpose of the forum - to share
information?  We all respect you flying career and the
many hours you have, but some of us haven't been so
lucky.

As far as pitot tube covers, guess my instructors
covered that ground with me the way your instructors
covered control surface locks.  And how about the
static port?
Kevin

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