To All,
This is a true story..when I was OPS Officer of the 358 Sqd...I had my butt chewed out many times because my C.O., Maj. ******** (you might know him), used to go out with Gen. Spaatz's daughter, who was a red cross worker. Gen. Spaatz and Gen. Doolittle would land at the base and come directly to the 358th Sqd. to see my C.O.. Spaatz left his uniform to be cleaned, so this day when Spaatz arrived at the Sqd. to pick up his uniform he opened the door and a Sgt. had on the Gen.s uniform...Spaatz said "Sgt. , you are going to have to grow some so it will fit." Needless to say that Sgt. was quaking in his boots. That particular Sgt. later said that that little episode had made him just about lose 50 pounds...he was lucky. The Gen.'s made a lot of surprise visits at different bases. All for now..cheers,
Bill Bergeron
--part1_12a.16cde13c.2aa80eb0_boundary--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 07:31:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 02:31:40 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
Message-ID: <189.d68c61d.2aa8544c@aol.com>
Hi WCH,
My Wife, Louise, was German. Her maiden name was Schlotterbeck. All
through college and in her Army days (She was a Lt. in the Medical Corps) she
was known as Dutch. Now I know why. Thank You. I miss her. I just found if
you transpose the letters in why you get wyh. Very interesting?
Before we were married she told me she wanted to marry someone named
Lee so she wouldn't have to write so much when she signed her name. I told
her I didn't solve her problem but Rencher was a step in the right direction.
She put up with it for some 52 years.
Good night Bill. It takes all kinds to make the world go around and you
keep it spinning. I appreciate you and often even agree with you. Keep it
coming.
Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 15:36:20 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:36:20 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default>
Hello to all.
My uncle John P. Millek, T/G, 359th.flew with the Lt. Patric H. Brabant
Crew, married a lady from Bally.PA. I wonder if my uncle ever knew that
Gen.Spatz, came from Boyertown. Uncle John passed away back in 1988, and
lived most of his years after the WAR on the West coast. I never has any
contact with him since 1960.
I attende the dedication at RDG airport, when it was dedicated to
Gen..Spatz. I received my first Pilot Training at RDG, 1959. Spent 8 years
with the PA. Air Guard at RDG. 148 Ftr.Sqd.Our outfit flew the P-51. But I
did not fly with the Guard. I knew some of the Pilots.
I did not receive my Lic. till 1977, at age 40, and Com. and Inst. Rating at
44 years of age.
My first flying job at 46, and then ATP at 48 years of age.
I flew charter out of N47, Pottstown Muni.for 6 years for a Co. that was
owned by one of the Pilots that flew P 51's in the Guard, also flew B-17's
in the Eigth Air Force.His name was John Basco and N47 was his airport
before he sold the airport to the city of Pottstown in 1947.. I flew in and
out of Posttstown Limerick also. Last flying a King Air Be 200 in 2001. We
would pick up our passengers at Limreick.
I attend the fly-in there, which I think is coming up on the 40th. year
soon. The fly-in is held the week end, Sunday, after Labor Day. Which I will
be attending on the 8th.
By the way,I saw my first airplane in Bally, PA. I think I was about 4 or 5
years old. Sorry I made this a little long.
Ed.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 18:32:03 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:32:03 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
References: <189.d68c61d.2aa8544c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D779513.60CDDD91@attglobal.net>
JPR, aka Mr. President ...
Few people know that 67% of America's heritage is German. Your wife sure did
have a German name ... Schlotterbeck. Good stock. I understand her
consideration of not wanting to write a long name. Do you know how you say
Hydraulic Pressure Line Problems in German?
Hydraulischedruckleitungschwerigkeiten! No wonder your dear wife wanted a name
like Lee! But she got R-E-N-C-H-E-R and for 52 years she must have been in 7th
Heaven. When I was a Captain for the Lufthansa, I was also a member of the
Luftfahrtbundesamt. That is the German FAA. I was an Air Carrier Inspector with
them during my years with Lufthansa.
Ruth and I will celebrate 56 years in January of 2003. We would have been
married long before that, but were married in Manila when she joined me there
from California. The reason we were NOT married prior to that time? The great
freedom loving country, in the State of California, did NOT ALLOW INTER-RACIAL
MARRIAGES until sometime in 1948 or so! She is the niece of the late President
Singman Rhee of Korea. Her Mother, my Mother-in-law, nursed President Rhee
during his last year on earth, in Honolulu. My Father-in-law, Ruth's Father,
performed the wedding ceremony when Rhee married his Austrian wife, Francesca.
Our own Eddie Deerfield knew both President Rhee and Francesca, his wife.
Ruth's Father died in the Presidential residence in Seoul in 1949 just before we
moved to Italy from Manila to take the job of Chief Pilot for the European
Division of PAL.
By the way, in many of your discourses, I have relearned a lot of what I had
forgotten of basic Physics. When I was a kid and had my own little plane, I used
to repair it and do the periodic checks on it. I also maintained my 1930 Model A
Ford Roadster, with a rumble seat. And NOW I cannot even reapair a PAPER CLIP!
Cheers, ol' Buddy. Stay well.
WCH
Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Hi WCH,
> My Wife, Louise, was German. Her maiden name was Schlotterbeck. All
> through college and in her Army days (She was a Lt. in the Medical Corps) she
> was known as Dutch. Now I know why. Thank You. I miss her. I just found if
> you transpose the letters in why you get wyh. Very interesting?
> Before we were married she told me she wanted to marry someone named
> Lee so she wouldn't have to write so much when she signed her name. I told
> her I didn't solve her problem but Rencher was a step in the right direction.
> She put up with it for some 52 years.
> Good night Bill. It takes all kinds to make the world go around and you
> keep it spinning. I appreciate you and often even agree with you. Keep it
> coming.
> Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 20:00:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group
In-Reply-To: <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default>
Message-ID: <20020905190024.34251.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Does anyone have a link to the 355th FG web site? I
looked on the Internet to no avail. Also, can anyone
point me in the right direction to purchase the out of
print "Steeple Morden Strafers?" I'm helpoing a lady
whose late husband was with the 355th. The name is on
the tip of my tongue, but who wrote Steeple Morden
Strafers? I know he is from Litlington just south of
the base.
Kevin
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 18:36:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:36:50 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default>
Message-ID: <3D779632.AE6CD295@attglobal.net>
Edward Frank ... FYI ...
I knew Johnny Basco who owned the "other" Pottstown Airport. If you flew into
Limerick Airport in Pottstown, you may have run across my brother who owned and
operated the Heller Aero Service there. He soloed at age 11 (illegal, but he
was a natural). I soloed him. It was a week prior to his 12th birthday. He died
of cancer at age 59.
I flew into the Reading Airport many times as a kid.
WCH
Edward L Frank wrote:
> Hello to all.
> My uncle John P. Millek, T/G, 359th.flew with the Lt. Patric H. Brabant
> Crew, married a lady from Bally.PA. I wonder if my uncle ever knew that
> Gen.Spatz, came from Boyertown. Uncle John passed away back in 1988, and
> lived most of his years after the WAR on the West coast. I never has any
> contact with him since 1960.
> I attende the dedication at RDG airport, when it was dedicated to
> Gen..Spatz. I received my first Pilot Training at RDG, 1959. Spent 8 years
> with the PA. Air Guard at RDG. 148 Ftr.Sqd.Our outfit flew the P-51. But I
> did not fly with the Guard. I knew some of the Pilots.
> I did not receive my Lic. till 1977, at age 40, and Com. and Inst. Rating at
> 44 years of age.
> My first flying job at 46, and then ATP at 48 years of age.
>
> I flew charter out of N47, Pottstown Muni.for 6 years for a Co. that was
> owned by one of the Pilots that flew P 51's in the Guard, also flew B-17's
> in the Eigth Air Force.His name was John Basco and N47 was his airport
> before he sold the airport to the city of Pottstown in 1947.. I flew in and
> out of Posttstown Limerick also. Last flying a King Air Be 200 in 2001. We
> would pick up our passengers at Limreick.
> I attend the fly-in there, which I think is coming up on the 40th. year
> soon. The fly-in is held the week end, Sunday, after Labor Day. Which I will
> be attending on the 8th.
> By the way,I saw my first airplane in Bally, PA. I think I was about 4 or 5
> years old. Sorry I made this a little long.
> Ed.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 20:30:06 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:30:06 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880327320@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Kevin,
Went to armyairforces.com and they had no listing for a 355th FG website.
They did have data on the group but no association or site.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Pearson [mailto:splasher6@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:00 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 355th Fighter Group
Does anyone have a link to the 355th FG web site? I
looked on the Internet to no avail. Also, can anyone
point me in the right direction to purchase the out of
print "Steeple Morden Strafers?" I'm helpoing a lady
whose late husband was with the 355th. The name is on
the tip of my tongue, but who wrote Steeple Morden
Strafers? I know he is from Litlington just south of
the base.
Kevin
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Sep 5 23:12:29 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:12:29 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Generals and Leaders
References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net> <001601c254e9$a6a77260$951ed63f@default> <3D779632.AE6CD295@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <002301c25529$533e3100$6401a8c0@desktop1>
I've been reading these threads and can't help but think about the
leadership qualities that folks admired versus those that they cursed. I
believe there are folks on this forum that have minds that quickly sort out
the wheat from the chaff both on leaders and followers, so I'll ask a
couple of "leading" questions.
What qualities do you admire in a leader ? Can you explain the differences
between the effectiveness of a well-liked leader versus one that was perhaps
not so well-liked ? When the chips were down which would you personally
rather line up behind ?
No names please- we're talking in general, if you can excuse the pun.
Bill
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 03:06:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike Toole)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:06:12 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly plans for the Boeing B17 G
Message-ID: <000801c25549$f9687020$d727d618@ToolesComputer>
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a Sterling Models Inc. Kit E11 B17G balsa wood kit I would like =
to sell but I do not have the plans so it can be put together... The =
span is 39" Scale 3/8" =3D 1'.
Does anyone know where I can get the plans to put it together.
I also have a (Gillows) B-24D Liberator 1/28 scale. 7/16"=3D1'-0", Wing =
Span 123.19 cm, Length 29" (73.66cm) I would like to sell on ebay. =
(Kit #2003)
It has never been opened, but I need to know what to expect to get for =
it. =20
Thanks, Mike
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have a Sterling Models Inc. Kit E11 B17G balsa =
wood kit=20
I would like to sell but I do not have the plans so it can be put =
together...=20
The span is 39" Scale 3/8" =3D 1'.
Does anyone know where I can get the plans to =
put it=20
together.
I also have a (Gillows) B-24D Liberator =
1/28 scale.=20
7/16"=3D1'-0", Wing Span 123.19 cm, Length 29" (73.66cm) I =
would like=20
to sell on ebay. (Kit #2003)
It has never been opened, but I need to know =
what to=20
expect to get for it.
Thanks, Mike
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C25528.72166BC0--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 03:33:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:33:10 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <12c.1713ea95.2aa96de6@aol.com>
For the record. Approximately when did crews start using helmets, flak
jackets and having muffs available for hand warming? I was an original flight
Eng. and flew my 25 missions and never had the availability to us these
items. Thank you. Frank Hinds.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 03:54:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:54:56 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <19d.821ec38.2aa97300@aol.com>
For the record. When were the helmets, flak jackets, and muffs put into use?
I flew my 25 missions without the benefit of these items. I was an original
member of a crew as flight Eng. but don't recall anyone using these items in
our sqdn. 358th. At least these were not on our ship "skywolf."
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 04:50:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:50:00 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments
Message-ID: <35.2c62ed79.2aa97fe8@aol.com>
Frank,
I flew a tour as RO between April and November, 1944, in many 359th BS
planes.
During that period the availability of helmets varied greatly from plane to
plane. I only remember finding helmets in a couple of them and they looked
like GI helmets that had been modified by someone with a hack saw and a ball
peen hammer to fit over an RO's headset. I found flak vests, sometimes
several, or parts of them, in most planes. By the time I flew my tour I had
been in the Army long enough to take things as they came and not ask a lot of
questions... .
Best Regards, Ol' Bob
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 04:55:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:55:27 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments - Addendum
Message-ID: <159.139d5640.2aa9812f@aol.com>
Frank, The heated muffs showed up after D-Day. Ol' Bob
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 16:29:46 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:29:46 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] General Spaatz
References: <000501c25406$2eb84380$3924fd3e@RAY> <3D763F24.35E1A0D@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <010601c255ba$b3d5b380$091fd63f@default>
Bill, I knew of your brothers operation at Limreick, but did not have any
contact with him, but his son I have talked to a few times back in the 80's.
I have a good buddy that knew you brother, and his son Kenny.
When Johnn Basco was flying in the Guard, he was always checking out a F-51,
as they were called and going out flying.
One time he came down to the Pottstown Muni and did a low pass, rolled on
climb, and went out below the tree line. You could see him after a few
seconds, climbing right side up. The word got out to his wife later, John,
later told me, not to talk about flying in the F-51, when she was around.
I did not know John when he was in the Guard, he got out in 1952, I was
there in in 1954. But when I went to work for him in 1985, he became a good
buddy of mine. I realy like John. Too bad I only knew him for six years, he
passed away in 1991.
Ed Frank.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 21:12:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:12:48 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Accouterments - Addendum
In-Reply-To: <159.139d5640.2aa9812f@aol.com>
Message-ID:
> Frank, The heated muffs showed up after D-Day. Ol' Bob
>
We were diverted to an RAF base...think it was November sometime...anyway I
bought a pair of RAF Silk Gloves and they were great for use on the Norden
and other stuff. No fear of frostbite and of course numb fingers were no
good on the bombsight. Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303 /
360.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Sep 6 22:58:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:58:27 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
References: <19d.821ec38.2aa97300@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c255f0$882c1ea0$95d04dd1@computer>
Frank: Can't help with flak suits or muffs. I flew 25 missions from April
to September l943. We had GI issue helmets. Never saw a flak suit or muffs
nor did I know of any crews that had them> Helmets were a nuisance, having
tendency to slide forward when worn over the headset.
Ed Lamme (bombardier) Strickland crew 427th
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Sep 7 00:45:41 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:45:41 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Suit & Helmets.
Message-ID: <00ca01c255ff$826e8de0$02827f18@we1.client2.attbi.com>
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Flew 14 missions in the 359th between May & July
1943. Had Flak Suits in most of the planes. Never had Helmets that I =
know of then.
Later flew mission in February to June in 1944 with the 359th and always =
had Flak Suits but no helmets in the waist or tail positons that I every =
saw.
Bob Rettinhouse
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Flew 14 missions in the 359th between May &=20
July
1943. Had Flak Suits in most of the planes. =
Never had=20
Helmets that I know of then.
Later flew mission in February to June in 1944 =
with the=20
359th and always had Flak Suits but no helmets in the waist or tail =
positons=20
that I every saw.
=
=20
Bob Rettinhouse
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Sep 7 12:41:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:41:52 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Hi All
Here's a question for the ex-pilots among you. I understand that the
expression 'tucked-in combat wing' refers to a much tighter formation than
had been originally utilized. What I would like to know is just how much
tighter was it? Did it occupy a great deal less space than the previously
used larger formations? How effective was it in reducing losses through
Luftwaffe fighter attacks, or did it have the opposite effect?
Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the expression 'Purple Heart
Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take it this was a reference
to a particularly dangerous position in the formation and which resulted in
putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
Thanks, in anticipation of a response
Ray Cossey
Norwich, England
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Sep 7 16:50:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020907155031.96799.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>
>
Ray, can't respond to the "purple heart corner"
question but the "coffin corner" was directly under
the tail of the squadron lead ship. Occupied this spot
on a mission to Berlin to drop, of all things,
propaganda.
Bill Runnels, bombardier
Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the
> expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take
> it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the
> formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
>
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
>
>
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Sep 7 20:10:53 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 12:10:53 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
References: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <3D7A4F3C.C35CE3A4@attglobal.net>
Ray & Theresa, MBE ...
"Purple Heart Corner" was a phrase used to denote the "Tail End Charley"
position. This was when the usual Squadron complement of 6 planes added a
7th, and this plane flew in the slot behind the second element as though he
was leading a 3rd element. (In fact, in later formations toward the end of the
war, we did use 9 plane Squadron formations and the Tail End Charley in that
case would have been the 10th plane). Such a position WAS a bit easier for
attacking Fighters to come in on the rear.
"Tucked In" was a phrase used to tell pilots to tuck it in and fly CLOSER
formation. There was a time when one would say, "I want your wing in my waist
window!" ... And all this meant was to keep it CLOSE. This WAS effective under
Fighter attack. But, it was also, difficult to do so as to prevent any
collisions, of which there were a few now and then. (In my later years as a
Lufthansa German Airlines Captain, I worked with most of the pilots against
whom we flew in the Luftwaffe. To a man, they told me that they would AVOID
any CLOSELY flown formation, if they could). As a Leader of formations, and,
as a Squadron Commander, I was VERY strict on flying CLOSE formation. At the
entrance to my Squadron area there used to be huge sign showing the 360th
planes in GOOD formation, with the mention that "When you see these planes
they will be in GOOD formation!"
Cheers!
Sir William von Bsiebsehn
"ray.cossey1" wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Here's a question for the ex-pilots among you. I understand that the
> expression 'tucked-in combat wing' refers to a much tighter formation than
> had been originally utilized. What I would like to know is just how much
> tighter was it? Did it occupy a great deal less space than the previously
> used larger formations? How effective was it in reducing losses through
> Luftwaffe fighter attacks, or did it have the opposite effect?
>
> Finally, somewhere or other I recall hearing the expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I take it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
>
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
>
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Sep 7 22:01:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:01:48 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID: <124.1642591c.2aabc33c@aol.com>
Ray,
You have asked a very thought provoking question. I will not be agreed
with, but I am going to give you an answer. Unlike most of my answers this
one could be all wet as it is based on my OPINION ONLY and not necessarily
right. Remember I am very opinionated.
First a few startling FACTS. One half of our crews were below average.
One half of our pilots were below average One half of our groups were below
average. One half of our squadrons were below average. Opinion. we probably
had more losses of the planes that flew "Tail end Charlies" These would be
the ones whose position was at the rear of the formation..When I was there
and we flew 12 (or 13) plane formations correctly the tail end Charlie was
only some 3 plane lengths behind the squadron lead when we were "tucked in"
as you called it. To be honest we usually only flew this way on the bomb run
or when enemy fighters were in the vicinity. It was hard work and the pilot
flying had to be VERY alert and Never take his eyes off his lead, not even
for 1/10th of a second. He flew. The "resting" pilot did everything else
except the Wheel, rudders and throttles.
Yes, "Tucked in" was much better and safer. It concentrated our fire
power. We were close enough together that all the planes in the formation
could fire at any enemy that attacked us even if they were on the opposite
side of our formation. We had a long line of bomber going to the targets.
The enemy fighters were not stupid. They flew along side the line out of
range and attacked the squadrons that were flying loose or sloppy formation.
That was safer for them. They often flew passed the 303rd and especially the
358th and 360th squadrons. Boy will I catch H--- over that one? We got
better bomb patterns on the ground so we wouldn't have to back to that one
again for a while.
My opinion again. I was not up there where decisions were made. I just
flew what and where and when they told me. Tail end Charles were not much if
any more dangerous than any other position. Remember they were always
shooting at the lead. That is where the Brass was. New crews were
inexperienced and their ability was an unknown factor. If they were in the
front of the formation and could not or would not fly good formation, they
loused up all the formation behind them. So they put them where no one was
behind them. Tail end Charlie. If they were not good crews they were more
likely not to finish their assigned missions no matter where they were in the
formation. A significant percentage of our loses were crews on their first 10
or 12 missions. Not where they were in the formation If you got a direct hit
in the center section it didn't matter much where you were or how good or bad
it was just a bad day for you if it wasn't a dud.
I flew copilot with many new crews on their first mission to help them
get started. You can't believe how different they were. Of course they were
all inexperienced but Some were very excellent and truly top quality. Some I
wondered how they got through cadets.
I may get kicked out of the Bomb Group and off the e-mail for this one
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 02:52:58 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 18:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <000501c25663$a7cb3a20$22e8fc3e@RAY>
Message-ID: <20020908015258.7679.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com>
Bill Heller mentions " tail end charley ".
Often this position was occupied by a crew from
another squadron who couldn't find his during
assembly. We were instructed to hook-on with someone
if this happened......Bill Runnels, bombardier
somewhere or other I recall hearing the
> expression 'Purple Heart
> Corner', or was it 'Purple Heart Position'? I
take
> it this was a reference
> to a particularly dangerous position in the
> formation and which resulted in
> putting you more at risk of being a casualty.
>
> Thanks, in anticipation of a response
>
>
> Ray Cossey
> Norwich, England
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 04:42:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 23:42:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
Message-ID:
Ray I got an emergency phone call and had to leave before I answered all your
questions. How close? I would say if your position was directly behind your
lead you should keep your nose just a few like 2 to 5 feet behind your leads
tail and about 6 to 10 feet below. Never get your nose in front of the back
of his bomb bay. I f you were over one airplane length behind it would be
getting a bit loose. If you were flying a wing position tucked in would have
your wing tip pointed in the area of your leads waist window and about 1/3rd
of your wing tip over or under the outer 1/3rd of your leads wing tip and be
about 5 to 10 feet above or below it. We liked and found it best to keep our
formations as short as possible front to back and no wider than necessary.
One time we were returning from a mission. We were flying lead of the
low low element. which meant our lead was the lead of the low 6 plane
element. It appeared his tail gunner was unconscious or asleep. None of us
had much damage, I inched up close to him. Bill Sachau, our Bombardier
opened the astro dome and reached up and grabbed his gun barrels and shook
them. The tail gunner awoke with a startled. look on his face. I'm glad he
didn't pull the triggers on his guns. Bill and I did not have this planned.
He just did it. I kept thinking my vertical tail would get in some prop wash,
but it never did. That makes me think propwash goes down faster than I
thought it would.
Good night Ray. I'm sorry I had to cut the first one short.
Best Wishes.
Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 08:16:06 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 08:16:06 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
References:
Message-ID: <000601c25707$b2fc1e10$25e4fc3e@theresa>
President Jack
Many thanks for your usual informative response to a question from 'the
limey'.
I must add that off all the incidents that have been related on this site,
the story about your bombardier, Bill Sachau, reaching up to grab the gun
barrel of the plane flying directly above you, left me with my mouth wide
open! If I didn't know that you are a totally honest man, I would put that
story way up there with the late Pop McGilvray's bombing-with-a-cow story.
If you said it happened that way, then it happened that way, but I hope you
will understand that us mere mortals will find it an incredible story. It
has got me wondering if there are any more, similarly way-out stories yet to
be heard from you 303rders? After Pop's cow and Jack's gun-grabbing story,
just about anything goes. So let's please hear them fellers.........even the
ones that kind of stretch the imagination a bit!
Warmest best wishes
Ray Cossey
Norwich, England
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 14:02:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 06:02:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020908130243.67902.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>
Close is close but what you describe is hard to
fathom. Sure glad I was not a part of your formation.
I can remember setting under the lead ship and being
able to count the rivets but we were never as close as
you described.......Bill Runnels, bombardier
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Ray I got an emergency phone call and had to
leave
> before I answered all your
> questions. How close? I would say if your
position
> was directly behind your
> lead you should keep your nose just a few like 2
to
> 5 feet behind your leads
> tail and about 6 to 10 feet below. Never get your
> nose in front of the back
> of his bomb bay.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 17:18:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:18:42 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Tucked-in Combat Wing
In-Reply-To: <20020908130243.67902.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com>
References:
Message-ID: <3D7B4022.11302.10B6E15@localhost>
> Close is close but what you describe is hard to
> fathom. Sure glad I was not a part of your formation.
> I can remember setting under the lead ship and being
> able to count the rivets but we were never as close as
> you described.......Bill Runnels, bombardier
On the 16mm movie I have, one of the scenes
( see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaaqueen.JPG )
shows 359thBS "Queen of Hearts" coming VERY close to the plane taking
the picture. You can see in the picture, that the #1 engine looks
significantly bigger than the #2 engine from the angle of perspective
(the greater the distance between the planes, the more equal the size
of the 2 engines will appear). With the knowledge of the actual
dimensions of the wings and the distance between the 2 engines, the
ratio of apparent engine size, and a little mathematics, I calculated
the distance between the cockpit of Queen of Hearts and the person
taking the picture to be less than 47 feet, which is less than the
length of the wing! Later in the movie, the camera pans from a
horizontal view to an overhead view, and you can see that the wing of
Queen of Hearts is directly overhead of the plane taking the picture,
and by just a few feet.
After I did the math, I was quite impressed by how close the
planes were.
However, in most of the movie, the planes were separated by much
greater distances, presumably because they weren't in enemy
territory, so they must have tightened up the formation when they got
close to the target.
Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net
Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 18:50:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:50:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re Tail-End Charlie
Message-ID: <16.24fd5bec.2aace801@aol.com>
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Re: discussions on location of Tail-End Charlie formation position
See formation diagrahms at:
http://www.303rdbga.com/formation.html
20 aircraft formation
Tail-end Charlie was the 7th B-17 in the High and Low Squadron
See right side fiew - High & low Squadron 7th B-17 in each Squadron
13 Aircraft Formation (Used after May 1944)
Tail-end Charlie was the 4th B-17 in the high flight (Formation position #7)
Tail End-Charlie was the most exposed position in the formations.
Harry D. Gobrecht
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Re: discussions on location of Tail-End Charlie formation position
See formation diagrahms at:
http://www.303rdbga.com/formation.html
20 aircraft formation
Tail-end Charlie was the 7th B-17 in the High and Low Squadron
See right side fiew - High & low Squadron 7th B-17 in each Squadron
13 Aircraft Formation (Used after May 1944)
Tail-end Charlie was the 4th B-17 in the high flight (Formation position #7)
Tail End-Charlie was the most exposed position in the formations.
Harry D. Gobrecht
--part1_16.24fd5bec.2aace801_boundary--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 19:11:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:11:10 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
Message-ID: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other skeptics,
What I have told you is the absolute truth If you chose not to believe
it that is your chose. If you read again my message I told you that half the
pilots were below average. That half the squadrons were below average. I
don't want to hurt any ones feelings but from my observations I never saw any
Squadron in any bomb group that flew as good of formation as did the 358th
and 360th of the 303rd. I know it happened but in my 35 missions I never saw
one collision in the 303rd where two undamaged B17s bumped each other. We
didn't do it all the time but at some time in nearly every mission we flew as
I relayed to you and thought nothing about it
The fighter pilots used a wing tip to knock off their buddies stuck drop
tanks that didn't drop when they were supposed to. The RAF boys dove on V1s.
put a wing tip of their spitfires or Hurricanes under the wing of the V1 and
flipped them over to topple the gyro so they would spin in to an unpopulated
area. You have been to air shows no doubt and seen the Thunderbirds or Blue
Angles fly as close as we did and one of them is upside down. Every time you
get in your car on the freeway or whatever you call them over there Ray you
drive in closer formation with the cars in the next lane than we are talking
about and that kid next to you might just started driving yesterday. The
formation we flew was nothing to us. We did it every day in some outfits.
Starting in Basic training even before we got to Advanced.
There we landed and took off in formation in AT-6s. Remember the 3 best 4
engine pilots in the 8th Air Force were in the 303rd. Only one of them as far
as I know was trained as a fighter pilot.
If you don;t want you to believe something. One time our copilot opened
his window, took the napkin his peanut butter sandwich was wrapped in and
polished Lt. Rufus W.Grishams (our right wing man) left navigation light
while we were in a steep left turn after bombs away. O yes he was on 3
engines.
Best Wishes,
Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 14:50:09 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:50:09 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
Message-ID: <000001c25770$80495b40$35e8fc3e@RAY>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,=20
Further to my recent question about the tucked-in combat wing, I have =
been researching the subject further and have now found the following =
description in one of my many World War II reference books. It pretty =
much confirms Jack Rencher's, Bill Heller's and others advice on the =
subject, but goes into a bit more detail.
The relevant text reads as follows:-=20
" In April 1943 'The Tucked-in Combat Wing' was introduced. The extent =
of the tuck-in can be gauged by the fact that the new formation occupied =
26.5 percent of the airspace filled by the original (950 yards x 425 =
yards x 2900ft compared to 2340 yards x 600 yards x 2900ft). This =
phenomenal concentration was made possible by bringing in the trailing =
high and low formations almost to the point where they overlapped the =
leader. Within formations the three-aircraft Vees were stacked in one =
direction; the elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite =
direction. It was by such measures that an incredible degree of =
compression was achieved, and it was with this bristling formation that =
the bombers of the 8th Air Force, spearheaded by the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, =
em=ADbarked upon their deep-penetration raids over Germany.
This, then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943 in its =
attempt to make the strategic bombing philosophy work. By using such a =
grouping of aircraft the 8th AF anticipated the bombers being able to =
fight their way to their objectives and at the same time meet the =
challenge of the Luftwaffe. This attempt failed, at a devastating cost. =
American bomber losses in 1943 reached awesome proportions. Subsequently =
such losses were only to be sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one =
three-month tour in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its =
initial establishment!"
So, can any one please tell me, is the writer correct in stating this =
particular formation innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed =
correct, then why do you think it was such a failure and where, =
precisely, do you think it was a flawed technique?
Thanks to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to =
information-seekers like myself.
Ray Cossey
Norwich, England
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All, =
Further to my =
recent=20
question about the tucked-in combat wing, I have been researching the =
subject=20
further and have now found the following description in one of my many =
World War=20
II reference books. It pretty much confirms Jack Rencher's, Bill =
Heller's and=20
others advice on the subject, but goes into a bit more =
detail.
The relevant =
text reads=20
as follows:-
" In April =
1943 =91The=20
Tucked-in Combat Wing=92 was introduced. The extent of the tuck-in can =
be gauged=20
by the fact that the new formation occupied 26.5 percent of the airspace =
filled=20
by the original (950 yards x 425 yards x 2900ft compared to 2340 yards x =
600=20
yards x 2900ft). This phenomenal concentration was made possible by =
bringing in=20
the trailing high and low formations almost to the point where they =
overlapped=20
the leader. Within formations the three-aircraft Vees were stacked =
in=20
one=20
direction; the elements and squadrons were stacked in the opposite =
direction. It=20
was by such measures that an incredible degree of compression was =
achieved, and=20
it=20
was with=20
this bristling formation that the bombers of the 8th Air Force, =
spearheaded by=20
the B-l7Fs and B-l7Gs, embarked upon their deep-penetration raids =
over=20
Germany.
This,=20
then, was the formation used by the 8th for most of 1943 in its attempt =
to make=20
the strategic bombing philosophy work. By using such a grouping of =
aircraft the=20
8th AF anticipated the bombers being able to fight their way to their =
objectives=20
and at the same time meet the challenge of the Luftwaffe. This attempt =
failed,=20
at a devastating cost. American bomber losses in 1943 reached awesome=20
proportions. Subsequently=20
such losses were only to be sustained by the 492nd BG, which in one =
three-month=20
tour in 1944, lost what was effectively the whole of its =
initial=20
establishment!"
So,=20
can any one please tell me, is the writer correct in stating this=20
particular formation innovation was such a failure? If he is indeed =
correct,=20
then why do you think it was such a failure and where, precisely, do you =
think=20
it was a flawed technique?
Thanks=20
to all you guys who take the trouble to reply to information-seekers =
like=20
myself.
Ray=20
Cossey
Norwich,=20
England
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C25747.0735B510--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 21:00:22 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:00:22 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
References: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c25772$75d8dcb0$35e8fc3e@RAY>
President Jack
I believe you........truly I believe you! Your story about the use of the
peanut sandwich wrapper to clean the left navigation light of your right
wing man convinces me that you are telling the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth. All I ask is that you allow me to still read about
such incidents .... with my mouth wide open!
Regards my friend
Ray Cossey
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Sep 8 23:37:54 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 15:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Disbelievers don't believe
In-Reply-To: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020908223754.12241.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com>
Jack, I flew my missions with the 360th and I concur
in your analysis regarding their formation talents.
Squadron Commander, Bill Heller would not have
accepted anything less........Bill Runnels
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other
> skeptics,
> What I have told you is the absolute truth If
> you chose not to believe
> it that is your chose.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 9 01:19:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:19:57 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bill Conklin- Leadership
Message-ID: <12d.16fdee66.2aad432d@aol.com>
To Bill, and all:
Great leaders come along only once in a while. I think one must be born a
good leader. It is the "just right" mixture of compassion, dedication, and
assertiveness. You either have it or you don't. I do not believe leadership
training makes one a good leader. Such training refines and improves what is
already there. And if there is nothing there to begin with, forget it. There
is no disputing that General Curtis E. LeMay was a dedicated soldier and
always got the job done. History shows he was a great general and warrior. As
a beloved leader he doesn't have that same reputation. I think he was lacking
somewhat in compassion. My grandfather, Colonel Ford J. Lauer, was a very
beloved commander. Colonel Lauer was the 303rd BG's first commander. He was
transferred however before the 303rd left the US for Europe. Colonel Lauer
commanded the 99th BG of the 15th AF from February through December of 1944.
I have corresponded with many of the men that served with him. To a man, they
all considered him to be a very compassionate leader. They also say he was
the most naturally gifted pilot they ever saw. (That means a lot coming from
other pilots.) He was almost father-like to a fault. He always referred to
the men as his "kids." Colonel Lauer never let them fly the tough missions
without him leading. He made sure as much as he could that he was scheduled
to lead the rough ones. Perhaps Colonel Lauer was a bit "too caring" of his
men. Maybe he would have been better if he had just a bit more of "LeMay" in
him. Perhaps this is the reason he was never able to advance above the rank
of Colonel. As it was he did his job and cared for his men. Oh well, take
care all............Ford J. Lauer III
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 9 04:05:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:05:42 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The tucked-in combat wing
Message-ID: <166.137bbb27.2aad6a06@aol.com>
Ray and all,
Our war changed as it progressed. In 1943 I was in training. We had a
B17 instructor who had completed his 25 missions tell us. " You do not have
to worry about antiaircraft guns. I have never in my 25 missions seen a plane
shot down by flak. You must worry about the fighters. All our losses are
caused by fighters not the flak.
I flew my first mission in the spring of 1944. I was the copilot on our
crew. On our first mission They put an experienced copilot in my seat with
our crew and put me on as copilot on the old crew. We were on the bomb run 15
to 30 seconds behind the squadron ahead of us. Before they dropped their
bombs 7 of the 12 were shot down There was pieces of B17s falling like a hail
storm. Some on fire some just wings, tails and pieces. Their formation was
completely scattered. There were fighters in the area but the 7 that we saw
go down were all from 88 MM German guns. The fighters did not attack that
squadron. The crew I was on panicked and were yelling at each other on the
Unicom. The pilot said nothing. I did not know any of them. It was my first
mission. I figured if we survived the bomb run the fighters would attack us
as soon as we got out of the barrage of flak. It was thick Finally I decided
this was no good, I got on the Unicom and Said," All right men, just calm
down get on your guns and do the job you were trained to do and we will fly
this bird home." They never said another word and we did fly the bird back to
Molesworth.
In 1943 they were flying an 18 plane formation composed of 3 six plane
elements. It was big and spread out all over the sky. It was not
maneuverable. If they tried to make a turn They had to keep it shallow so the
outside planes could keep up and the inside ones wouldn't stall out. If one
crew in the middle of the formation loused up all the formation behind him
was scattered too. We changed to a 12 plane formation and flew nearly side by
side instead of 3 planes out and 3 planes back.
We had a 3 plane lead, a 3 plane high on the leads right who flew a bit high
and a 3 plane low on the leads left who flew a bit low and then a low low 3
plane element that flew directly behind the low element but just a bit lower.
This formation was much more maneuverable and very shallow from front to back
WE got the long range fighter escort all the way to the target most of the
time. Our big problem changed gradually from the fighters to the flak. They
changed our tour from 25 missions to 30 and then to 35 so our chances of
finishing did not improve any. During late 44 and later they had plenty of
fighters and JETs but they were very short of fuel and good trained
experienced pilots. They got more and more antiaircraft guns and their
gunners got very sharp with them. We got the chin turrets on our G models
and that sure didn't hurt anything for us.
I made a mistake about the story polishing Grishams navigation light
with the wrapper from the peanut butter sandwich so don't believe it. It
didn't happen.
It was a Spam sandwich
Best Wishes Dear Friend,
Jack Rencher
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Sep 9 04:16:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:16:28 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Disbelievers don't believe
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From: Jprencher@aol.com
Full-name: Jprencher
Message-ID: <170.1366d74d.2aacecbe@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:11:10 EDT
Subject: Disbelievers don't believe
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
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X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
Ray, Bill Bunnels, Bill Jones, et all other skeptics,
What I have told you is the absolute truth If you chose not to believe
it that is your chose. If you read again my message I told you that half the
pilots were below average. That half the squadrons were below average. I
don't want to hurt any ones feelings but from my observations I never saw any
Squadron in any bomb group that flew as good of formation as did the 358th
and 360th of the 303rd. I know it happened but in my 35 missions I never saw
one collision in the 303rd where two undamaged B17s bumped each other. We
didn't do it all the time but at some time in nearly every mission we flew as
I relayed to you and thought nothing about it
The fighter pilots used a wing tip to knock off their buddies stuck drop
tanks that didn't drop when they were supposed to. The RAF boys dove on V1s.
put a wing tip of their spitfires or Hurricanes under the wing of the V1 and
flipped them over to topple the gyro so they would spin in to an unpopulated
area. You have been to air shows no doubt and seen the Thunderbirds or Blue
Angles fly as close as we did and one of them is upside down. Every time you
get in your car on the freeway or whatever you call them over there Ray you
drive in closer formation with the cars in the next lane than we are talking
about and that kid next to you might just started driving yesterday. The
formation we flew was nothing to us. We did it every day in some outfits.
Starting in Basic training even before we got to Advanced.
There we landed and took off in formation in AT-6s. Remember the 3 best 4
engine pilots in the 8th Air Force were in the 303rd. Only one of them as far
as I know was trained as a fighter pilot.
If you don;t want you to believe somethin