From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 1 19:04:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:04:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Lord HAW HAW Message-ID: During the war Lord HAW HAW aka William Joyce broadcasted propaganda from Germany. He also passed along greetings to the different 8th AF Bomb Groups and crews. On one broadcast he noted that a clock in the Briefing room or Officer club was running two minutes slow, which in fact it was. After the war did any of the Allied intelligence gathering agency find out what his source of intelligence/spies was? Greg Pierce Pres, 8th AFHS - WA From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 2 05:25:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:25:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lord Haw Haw Message-ID: <26.2e9f5519.2acbcf4a@aol.com> If you remember, Lord Haw Haw was in the movie "12 ' O Clock High" If any of you can get the movie or have seen it you will remember hearing his broadcast with Dean Jagger in this particular scene. Terry Lucas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 3 00:06:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:06:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lord Haw Haw References: <20021002160114.B8FE85364E@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001201c26a68$59d26960$0c3fafd8@jp> Hi guys, You can hear brief excerpts of a number of Lord Haw Haw's broadcasts by visiting http://www.earthstation1.com/Lord_Haw_Haw.html To listen, scroll down to the flashing antennaes, click one and follow directions from there. They have photos and a brief biography of Joyce as well. There are also recordings of Axis Sally and Tokyo Rose. I've listened to all of them (a little time consuming), but they are interesting. Jay From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 3 00:46:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lord Haw Haw In-Reply-To: <001201c26a68$59d26960$0c3fafd8@jp> Message-ID: <20021002234625.51256.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> After the first post I went to that site and listened to them all too. The D-Day clip was very good too! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 3 00:46:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lord Haw Haw In-Reply-To: <001201c26a68$59d26960$0c3fafd8@jp> Message-ID: <20021002234625.51256.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> After the first post I went to that site and listened to them all too. The D-Day clip was very good too! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 6 07:41:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Francisco_Qui=F1ones?=) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:41:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb References: <006e01c259c9$49786240$9be8fc3e@RAY> <3D7FA30A.F61716DC@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <044901c26d03$684afeb0$8e8d9840@MRCHUCHO> good to know this, thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17's rate of climb > R & T, MBE ... > > The original B17 was designed for a 2,200 pound bomb load! We NEVER carried > that SMALL a load. We even put two 2000 pounders under our wings on some > missions. The usual load was around 6000 pounds. And do not forget, FUEL was > one of the greatest weights we carried. I sometimes wince (even now) when I > realize I used to depart Anchorage Alaska bound for Hong Kong, in a DC-10-30, > and would have a flight plan which showed we would burn TEN TONS of fuel > enroute! I used to look out at the engines and realize that they were burning > FIFTY GALLONS PER MINUTE! I still believe people do NOT consider how much > weight the fuel adds to any given airplane. However, it is burned out quickly. > On the flight from ANC to HKG I would burn off 15 tons of fuel in the first > hour! The overall average was TEN TONS PER HOUR! (burns less as you get > lighter). > > Once, when leaving Shannon Ireland on an airline flight, a passenger asked me > as he watched everyone climb on board with huge packages they had bought in the > duty free shop, "Doesn't it bother you, Captain, that there is so much extra > weight going on here?" > > I looked at him and said, "Sir, that is like a fly walking on an I-Beam!" > > FUEL is the heaviest thing carried! > > Cheers! > > Sir William von Bsiebsehn > > > > > "ray.cossey1" wrote: > > > I read recently that the standard specifications for the B-17G state that > > its 'rate of climb' > > was such that it would take 37 minutes to reach an altitude of 20,000 feet. > > It adds no > > qualification to these figures, as to what the aircraft's weight might be in > > achieving this > > rate of climb? > > > > My question is what bomb-load weight would it likely be carrying in > > order to achieve this rate of climb? I understand that the weight of a > > bomb-load could vary greatly, perhaps by several thousands of pounds and > > that this would have a great effect on the aircraft's rate of climb. The > > bomb load carried > > would, I presume, depend on length of mission, target-type, etc. > > > > I believe the B-17G's 'empty weight' was of the order of 36,000lbs and that > > the 'normal load weight' was around 55,000 lbs and that it had a 'maximum > > normal load' weight of no less than 72,000 lbs! (Just over 32 tons). > > > > Perhaps some of you ground-crew guys, who were involved in loading these > > babies with bombs, can recall the sort of bomb-loads carried on various > > types of raids. Oh, incidentally, did any of you ever chalk/paint comments > > on the bomb casings? If so, do you remember any of the more humorous ones? > > I've always been amused by the ones directly personally at Adolf Hitler! > > > > Thanks > > > > Ray Cossey > > Norwich, England > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 6 16:39:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Francisco_Qui=F1ones?=) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:39:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] bomb run Message-ID: <00f601c26d4e$92712340$9d8d9840@MRCHUCHO> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C26D2D.0AD2D3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just great thinks to know, thanks=20 best regards Francisco Quinones ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C26D2D.0AD2D3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just great thinks to know, thanks =
best regards Francisco=20 Quinones
------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C26D2D.0AD2D3A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 7 23:31:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:31:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] control surface locks References: <007801c26836$54e1c4c0$24e76741@default> Message-ID: <3DA20B59.C775391F@attglobal.net> Simple: You don't remove the wheel chocks you don't go! Cheers! Bill Hoyt wrote: > guess if your gonna forget anything in a preflight as mentioned, forgetting > the wheel chocks would be the safest huh? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 7 23:39:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:39:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pitot Tube Covers and Bill Heller References: <20020930164508.36918.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DA20D33.915AA27E@attglobal.net> KP ... Except to ascertain that the static port area was not damaged we had no covers or other concerns about that. ONE time I noticed some serious scratching in the area and the airplane WAS grounded. But, I never knew what they did or WHAT the damage, if any, was. Nothing you can ask is mundane ... if I put forth such feeling, it was not intended to be so. There are times I do wince at some of the queries, but you must remember that "wincing" is done in the manner I would do so if speaking with a student or fledgling pilot entrusted to my care. Even as a Squadron CO, I had meetings with the pilots and crews and we discussed MANY items which were important though some WERE very basic. One must remember that there is always someone out there with a little less experience than you and THEY are important and must be spoken to in a proper manner. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill: I know this talk about Control Surface Locks > sounds "mundane" to you, but I have seen control > surface locks pictured in books on many occasions, and > I thought I knew how they were used. After this > discussion, I now know I was wrong. I am very > interested in all that has been said about them, and > isn't that the purpose of the forum - to share > information? We all respect you flying career and the > many hours you have, but some of us haven't been so > lucky. > > As far as pitot tube covers, guess my instructors > covered that ground with me the way your instructors > covered control surface locks. And how about the > static port? > Kevin > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 8 15:16:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:16:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pitot Tube Covers and Bill Heller Message-ID: <174.ffaafa4.2ad442c0@aol.com> 
bill ,good to read that 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Oct  8 19:26:07 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:26:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pitot Tube Covers and Bill Heller
In-Reply-To: <3DA20D33.915AA27E@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021008182607.74377.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill Heller:  Thanks for that last message.  I know a
lot of the questions we younger guys ask must cause a
lot of you to wince!  But they are sincere questions
because we really do want to know these things.  I
have learned more from you guys in one year than in
the five years preceeding.  I am very much honored
that you all take the time to tell us these things and
answer questions many of us have carried for years.

Getting back to details.  My friend who was with the
91st was flying to from Iceland to Prestwick.  That
morning at briefing, the briefing officer told the
five planes that were heading out to be sure to open
the valves on the Tokyo tanks so the fuel could
circulate prior to getting to altitude.  Apparently
the valves would freeze shut at altitude and if they
weren't opened on the ground, they would not have had
enough fuel to reach Prestwick.  The pilot of one of
the crews forgot to open the values to the Tokyo tanks
and ran out of fuel on the way.  Lou said watching
that crew go down and hearing their voices on the
radio was worse than anything he saw in combat because
it was a simple, careless error that cost that crew
their lives.  I have often thought what it must have
been like flying to England as an 18 or 19 year old
who had never been more than 30 miles from his home,
and keeping in mind the airplane was a relatively new
invention.  You guys definitely had the right stuff!!
Cheers!
Kevin


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Oct  9 03:34:51 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:34:51 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion 2002
Message-ID: 

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26F12.890CB100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wanted to say thank you to all that I met in Branson this past week.  I=
 loved to get to put a face with many of the names I have been seeing.  T=
he stories were great, and I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.  L=
ook forward to seeing you in Portland.  =20
Lance Burrell

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26F12.890CB100
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I wanted to sa=
y thank you to all that I met in Branson this past week.  I loved to=
 get to put a face with many of the names I have been seeing.  The s=
tories were great, and I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.  =
Look forward to seeing you in Portland.  
 
Lance Burrell


------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26F12.890CB100--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Oct  9 04:51:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:51:24 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion 2002
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3DA3454C.11177.7C7189@localhost>

> I wanted to say thank you to all that I met in Branson this past
> week.  I loved to get to put a face with many of the names I
> have been seeing.  The stories were great, and I hope you all
> enjoyed it as much as I did.  Look forward to seeing you in
> Portland.   Lance Burrell
> 

Lance ----- (and the others)
It was a pleasure meeting you.  What a great time!  I just put 
some random shots online.  We really had a wonderful reunion. 
It was one of the best.  Some photos are here:
http://www.303rdbga.com/reu-branson.html

-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Oct  9 07:34:06 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:34:06 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pitot Tube Covers and Bill Heller
References: <20021008182607.74377.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA3CDDD.98214303@attglobal.net>

KP ...

Before we had Tokyo tanks we used to go on very long
missions with the regular tanks. Some lasted 7 and 8 hours.
And, with a bomb load and all the ammo, etc. This leaves me
at a loss to know why that plane you mention had to be lost.
This especially so if you leap frogged across the pond via
Blue West One and even Keflavik. None of the legs seemed to
be that long so as to prevent making it on the regular
tankage. But, the years do take their toll and there is not
much I recall anent the Tokyo tank usage except that we were
very happy when we got the planes with them installed.
Perhaps Jack the expert (and he IS that) can shed some light
on this for you. If he sees a copy of this that will be his
signal to Email you.

Cheers!

WCH



Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Bill Heller:  Thanks for that last message.  I know a
> lot of the questions we younger guys ask must cause a
> lot of you to wince!  But they are sincere questions
> because we really do want to know these things.  I
> have learned more from you guys in one year than in
> the five years preceeding.  I am very much honored
> that you all take the time to tell us these things and
> answer questions many of us have carried for years.
>
> Getting back to details.  My friend who was with the
> 91st was flying to from Iceland to Prestwick.  That
> morning at briefing, the briefing officer told the
> five planes that were heading out to be sure to open
> the valves on the Tokyo tanks so the fuel could
> circulate prior to getting to altitude.  Apparently
> the valves would freeze shut at altitude and if they
> weren't opened on the ground, they would not have had
> enough fuel to reach Prestwick.  The pilot of one of
> the crews forgot to open the values to the Tokyo tanks
> and ran out of fuel on the way.  Lou said watching
> that crew go down and hearing their voices on the
> radio was worse than anything he saw in combat because
> it was a simple, careless error that cost that crew
> their lives.  I have often thought what it must have
> been like flying to England as an 18 or 19 year old
> who had never been more than 30 miles from his home,
> and keeping in mind the airplane was a relatively new
> invention.  You guys definitely had the right stuff!!
> Cheers!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Oct  9 13:51:07 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 08:51:07 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion 2002
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3116998268_66354135
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> From the many of us who for one reason or another couldn=B9t attend the fes=
tive
> Branson Reunion, let me say that we=B9re glowing green with envy on seeing =
all
> the joyous faces in the photos.  I personally missed shaking hands with a=
ll
> those who populate the =B3E-township=B2 and keep the memory of the 303rd aliv=
e and
> kickin=B9=B9 with informative Q and A.  Well, maybe next time......
> Cheers, Bob Hand, Fink=B9s Crew (B).
>=20



--B_3116998268_66354135
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [303rd-Talk] Reunion 2002



From the many of us who for one reason or =
another couldn’t attend the festive Branson Reunion, let me say that w=
e’re glowing green with envy on seeing all the joyous faces in the pho=
tos.  I personally missed shaking hands with all those who populate the=
 “E-township” and keep the memory of the 303rd alive and  k=
ickin’’ with informative Q and A.  Well, maybe next time...=
...

Cheers, Bob Hand, Fink’s Crew (B).











--B_3116998268_66354135--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Oct  9 19:48:04 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:48:04 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Original Pilots Signatures
Message-ID: <3DA41774.17361.1350CC5@localhost>

Gang,
I received a very interesting document at the reunion from 
Dutch Neimants.  It is a "Certificate of TS."  I'm sure TS 
stands for the same thing today.  It is signed by 34 early 
303rd members, mostly from the 359th and 360th.  Many of the 
original pilots signed it.  Some who signed were later killed.  
The Certificate is here: 
http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/certificate-of-ts.jpg  

John W. Farrar's signature has a nickname I can't figure out.  
Can you? Tar ???  (look by the 36)

Kermit Stevens signed it at Commanding Officer 303rd, so it 
must have been signed between Aug 1943 and Aug 1944.

It is signed by Dean A. Piper, who I understand was the Mess
Officer in charge of the Officers Club.  I'm sure some here can
tell me more about it.  The known signatures are:

Calhoun, William R. Jr. (Bill)
Castle, John A.
Davey, Kenneth W.
Doherty, Frank J.
Farrar, John W. (Tar ??)
Fredericks, Jacob W. (Jake)
Kalhoefer, Herbert E.
Kalman, Bernard (Bernie)
Lambert, John L. (Jack)
Lyle, Lewis E. (Lewie)
McCoy, Melvin T.
McDaniel, Harry M.
Mitchell, Kirk R.
Moore, Paul G.
Newell, Robert H. (Bob)
Niemants, Marion L. (Dutch)
Perry, Alvin L. (Doc)
Phelps, Robert L. (Red)
Piper, Dean A.
Pryor, Roger A. (Rog)
Quinney, Donald E.
Ramsey, Benjamin B. (Ben)
Robinson, George L.
Romig, Eugene A.
Schulstad, Louis M. (Mel)
Shayler, Walter K. (Walt)
Shumake, Glynn F.
Snyder, Edgar E. Jr. (Ed)
Southworth, Billy B. Jr.
Stallings, George V. Jr.
Stevens, Kermit D. (Commanding Officer)
Strickland, Joseph M. (Joe)
Tippet, Paul S.
Yonkman, Robert J.
-- Gary --  Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 06:22:55 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:22:55 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Home at last
Message-ID: <99.2dcf7724.2ad668af@aol.com>

Hi Gang.
     The undersigned is home from Branson. Had a great time.  Thank you all. 
Got the water and water heater turned on and off I go to the sack. 
 Was great to see you all again.
     Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 08:16:30 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:16:30 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
Message-ID: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>

Kevin:
     I just got back from Branson and it is 12:50 AM but in checking my 
e-mail I see your letter and note from Bill Heller.  I am trusting a 58 year 
old memory on this but I'll try. The Tokyo tanks feed into the main tanks by 
gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300 gallons BEFORE the Tokyo 
tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo tanks fuel. Then the fuel 
gauges should be watched carefully so the Tokyo fuel could be shut off before 
the main tank over flowed. When the main tank was again down to about 300 
gallons the Tokyo tanks could be opened again and the process repeated. On 
the 3rd time the Tokyo tanks would empty and could be left open I suppose.  I 
think if the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the main tanks full the main 
tanks would over flow and most all the gas, except that being used, would go 
out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo tanks would put fuel 
into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be consumed by the engines.
     Best Wishes, Good night.
             Jack Rencher 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 13:35:20 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:35:20 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk...] Branson
In-Reply-To: <99.2dcf7724.2ad668af@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>It was tough having to pass Branson up and not get to shake hands with the
E-Biggies, but such is life.  Missed out on personal thanks for sharing your
great knowledge and experience to the enlightenment of all.  Good Health and
Cheers...Bob Hand, Fink's crew, (B).



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 18:43:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:43:16 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
References: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DA5BC34.861FB67E@attglobal.net>

KP ...

Jack's recall mirrors mine. He is your best source of answers to technical
queries.

Cheers!

WCH



Jprencher@aol.com wrote:

> Kevin:
>      I just got back from Branson and it is 12:50 AM but in checking my
> e-mail I see your letter and note from Bill Heller.  I am trusting a 58 year
> old memory on this but I'll try. The Tokyo tanks feed into the main tanks by
> gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300 gallons BEFORE the Tokyo
> tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo tanks fuel. Then the fuel
> gauges should be watched carefully so the Tokyo fuel could be shut off before
> the main tank over flowed. When the main tank was again down to about 300
> gallons the Tokyo tanks could be opened again and the process repeated. On
> the 3rd time the Tokyo tanks would empty and could be left open I suppose.  I
> think if the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the main tanks full the main
> tanks would over flow and most all the gas, except that being used, would go
> out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo tanks would put fuel
> into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be consumed by the engines.
>      Best Wishes, Good night.
>              Jack Rencher



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 18:53:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021010175350.45364.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks Jack for your late night reply!  Facinating! 
As a follow up to my post yesterday, I wanted to tell
the group EXACTLY what my friend told me about the
ship that went down flying across the Atlantic and
about the nose high attitude of his B-17.  In his
book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, he says they
flew from Gander Air Base in Newfoundland to
Prestwick.  Is this possible?  I thought all crews
went through Iceland on the way over.  He also
indicates the flight was to last “eight hours, but
with a tailwind, the time could be cut to seven.”  The
time period would have been November or December of
1943, he doesn’t mention the date.  The flight was at
night.  He goes on:

“Before long we began hitting rough weather, it was
snowing again, and the plane was bounced around pretty
hard.  After a few more minutes, Homer (Navigator)
called me back and said, “Take a correction of 20
degrees to the left.”

“OK,” I said, and we flew for a while on that heading.
 Now we were picking up ice on the wings, so I was
using the deicer.

Soon Homer called again.  “Correct 20 degrees to the
left again.”

“OK,” I agreed.  The visibility was breaking up a
little, but nonetheless, I was scared to death, and I
didn’t know if Homer knew what the heck he was doing. 
I was nervous and Joe, my copilot, was nervous.  I’m
not sure, but I think he was saying a rosary.  I’d
have been saying one too, had I not had my hands full.
 The boys were talking and kidding around on the
intercom and laughing, making me all the more nervous
until I finally ordered, “All right, everybody shut
up!  And don’t get on that intercom anymore!”

Shortly, Homer called and said, “Correct 20 degrees to
the left again.”

“What!” I said, “Are you sure?”

“Yes, do it,” Homer said.

Right then I was convinced Homer was nuts, and that we
were lost.  I was frantic.  I called him back and
said, “Homer!  You dummy!  What the hell are you
doing?  I can just see us going around in a big
circle.  Are you crazy?”

“No, I’m not crazy,” he said, “You correct this
airplane right now!”

What I didn’t realize at the time was that we had a
terrific cross wind from the North blowing us off
course, and Homer standing in his little hatch with
his little sextant all night long, was making
corrections.  He did a super job.”

And about the nose high attitude I mentioned
yesterday:

“About 3:30 a.m. or 4 a.m., I noticed that my airspeed
was going down.  Although I had the same power on, it
was dropping……170……then 165……  I couldn’t figure out
why, and for a minute, I panicked.  Soon the plane was
beginning to mush along.  Finally it dawned on me. 
Because we were using up a lot of gas out of our
tanks, the front of the plane was becoming lighter as
the center of gravity changed.  That meant there was
only one thing to do; in order to get more airspeed,
we would have to lighten the back of the plane. 
Instantly I thought of those 75 cases of “C” Rations
in the bomb bay.  Well, I thought, it’s either get rid
of those or take a chance on running out of gas.  It
didn’t take me long to decide.”

How is this possible if the Forts could carry a 10,000
pound bomb load?  Did you have to transfer fuel
manually?  

And about the crew that went down:

“Out there beyond the point of no return, one of our
planes was in trouble.  Lt. Craig, its pilot from some
small town in Arkansas, must not have been listening
when they reminded us about that gas transfer valve. 
He had forgotten to leave that valve open, as he was
suppose to do, in order to get more gas into the main
tanks, either the gas line or valve frozen.  We could
hear him desperately trying to reach Gander Air Base’s
Air Sea Rescue Station, trying to radio them his
approximate location.  We all knew their chances of
making contact with Gander was not good.  In fact, it
was practically impossible because they were too far
out.  I don’t think they ever got a response, even
though they tried and tried frantically to reach
someone.  Even had they gotten a response, it would
have taken Air Sea Rescue crews forever to find them
at night.

“We are going down!”  They kept screaming into the
radio.  “We need help!”  There was not a thing anyone
could do about it.  It was awful.  Soon there was just
silence.  We never heard or knew what happened to
them.  We just assumed that they went down in the
water.  The water was so cold that they wouldn’t have
been able to survive for over a few minutes.  It was
awful!

--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin:
>      I just got back from Branson and it is 12:50 AM
> but in checking my 
> e-mail I see your letter and note from Bill Heller. 
> I am trusting a 58 year 
> old memory on this but I'll try. The Tokyo tanks
> feed into the main tanks by 
> gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300
> gallons BEFORE the Tokyo 
> tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo tanks
> fuel. Then the fuel 
> gauges should be watched carefully so the Tokyo fuel
> could be shut off before 
> the main tank over flowed. When the main tank was
> again down to about 300 
> gallons the Tokyo tanks could be opened again and
> the process repeated. On 
> the 3rd time the Tokyo tanks would empty and could
> be left open I suppose.  I 
> think if the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the
> main tanks full the main 
> tanks would over flow and most all the gas, except
> that being used, would go 
> out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo
> tanks would put fuel 
> into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be
> consumed by the engines.
>      Best Wishes, Good night.
>              Jack Rencher 
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 19:04:15 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today movie
In-Reply-To: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021010180415.6975.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

I watched Target for Today again last night and have a
couple of questions:

1.  When they show the bombs falling (strike camera
footage)on Anklam and Danzig, the smoke rising from
the ground looks fake.  You can see what appears to be
smoke pots, and although the Germans did use smoke
pots, the scenes in the movie just don't look real. 
Is this what it really looked like?  The smoke is
traveling way too fast for the camera footage to be
real.

2.  After the bomb drop, they show the Commander of
the Eighth Air Force.  Is that Ira Eaker in the movie,
the real Ira Eaker?

3.  After bombs away and after they show the 8th AF
CO, they show an element of 303rd BG planes.  Were any
of you flying those planes?

Thanks, guys! Kevin


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 19:11:32 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
In-Reply-To: <3DA5BC34.861FB67E@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021010181132.60249.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Did any of you undergo psychological evaluation back
in the States after your combat our was up?  I've
heard there was a nice hotel in Florida where some
where sent.  Does anyone have any recollections if
they were sent there.  Apparently, crews were
frandomly picked to go there.
Thanks!
Kevin

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 20:34:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:34:25 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
References: <20021010175350.45364.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA5D641.9AA3FC83@attglobal.net>

KP ...

Anent the plane "mushing" along, airspeed falling off, etc.,
this had NOTHING to do with aft or forward load. This was
ICE. Fuel and bomb load were well within CG limits and there
was no need in the B17 to move fuel around for this reason.
In swept back wings it does become necessary and in the
Concorde is done throughout flight. The few C-Ration boxes
they might have moved forward did little to assist the
situation. Most likely this was empennage ice. The airspeed
falls off, the nose goes up and the ONLY way to alleviate
this is to go down to a lower warmer altitude. On the North
Atlantic, this means almost certain fatal.

Once, on a Lufthansa flight from Paris to Dakar, we
encountered heavy icing South of Paris prior to the Bay of
Biscay. We immediately descended to a lower, non icing,
altitude and the problem dissappeared. Our EMPENNAGE had
iced up. It was in a Connie. The nose wanted to fo up, the
speed fell off ... and soon, sans action on my part, we
would have fallen out of the sky! Once we sloughed off the
ice on the tail section, we climbed again, made a Fuel and
passenger stop in Lisbon and continued on to Dakar where our
crew terminated. The plane continued on to Rio, Buenos Aires
and Chile. In the days of props like Connies, DC6s, etc.,
this was a common occurrence if one did not pay attention.
Tail deicing did little to assist if the build up was quick
(like it ALWAYS was on the North Atlantic).

As to Tokyo tanks and/or the use thereof, I believe Jack
Rencher full cleared that up in one of his missives on the
subject.

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn




Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Thanks Jack for your late night reply!  Facinating!
> As a follow up to my post yesterday, I wanted to tell
> the group EXACTLY what my friend told me about the
> ship that went down flying across the Atlantic and
> about the nose high attitude of his B-17.  In his
> book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, he says they
> flew from Gander Air Base in Newfoundland to
> Prestwick.  Is this possible?  I thought all crews
> went through Iceland on the way over.  He also
> indicates the flight was to last “eight hours, but
> with a tailwind, the time could be cut to seven.”  The
> time period would have been November or December of
> 1943, he doesn’t mention the date.  The flight was at
> night.  He goes on:
>
> “Before long we began hitting rough weather, it was
> snowing again, and the plane was bounced around pretty
> hard.  After a few more minutes, Homer (Navigator)
> called me back and said, “Take a correction of 20
> degrees to the left.”
>
> “OK,” I said, and we flew for a while on that heading.
>  Now we were picking up ice on the wings, so I was
> using the deicer.
>
> Soon Homer called again.  “Correct 20 degrees to the
> left again.”
>
> “OK,” I agreed.  The visibility was breaking up a
> little, but nonetheless, I was scared to death, and I
> didn’t know if Homer knew what the heck he was doing.
> I was nervous and Joe, my copilot, was nervous.  I’m
> not sure, but I think he was saying a rosary.  I’d
> have been saying one too, had I not had my hands full.
>  The boys were talking and kidding around on the
> intercom and laughing, making me all the more nervous
> until I finally ordered, “All right, everybody shut
> up!  And don’t get on that intercom anymore!”
>
> Shortly, Homer called and said, “Correct 20 degrees to
> the left again.”
>
> “What!” I said, “Are you sure?”
>
> “Yes, do it,” Homer said.
>
> Right then I was convinced Homer was nuts, and that we
> were lost.  I was frantic.  I called him back and
> said, “Homer!  You dummy!  What the hell are you
> doing?  I can just see us going around in a big
> circle.  Are you crazy?”
>
> “No, I’m not crazy,” he said, “You correct this
> airplane right now!”
>
> What I didn’t realize at the time was that we had a
> terrific cross wind from the North blowing us off
> course, and Homer standing in his little hatch with
> his little sextant all night long, was making
> corrections.  He did a super job.”
>
> And about the nose high attitude I mentioned
> yesterday:
>
> “About 3:30 a.m. or 4 a.m., I noticed that my airspeed
> was going down.  Although I had the same power on, it
> was dropping……170……then 165……  I couldn’t figure out
> why, and for a minute, I panicked.  Soon the plane was
> beginning to mush along.  Finally it dawned on me.
> Because we were using up a lot of gas out of our
> tanks, the front of the plane was becoming lighter as
> the center of gravity changed.  That meant there was
> only one thing to do; in order to get more airspeed,
> we would have to lighten the back of the plane.
> Instantly I thought of those 75 cases of “C” Rations
> in the bomb bay.  Well, I thought, it’s either get rid
> of those or take a chance on running out of gas.  It
> didn’t take me long to decide.”
>
> How is this possible if the Forts could carry a 10,000
> pound bomb load?  Did you have to transfer fuel
> manually?
>
> And about the crew that went down:
>
> “Out there beyond the point of no return, one of our
> planes was in trouble.  Lt. Craig, its pilot from some
> small town in Arkansas, must not have been listening
> when they reminded us about that gas transfer valve.
> He had forgotten to leave that valve open, as he was
> suppose to do, in order to get more gas into the main
> tanks, either the gas line or valve frozen.  We could
> hear him desperately trying to reach Gander Air Base’s
> Air Sea Rescue Station, trying to radio them his
> approximate location.  We all knew their chances of
> making contact with Gander was not good.  In fact, it
> was practically impossible because they were too far
> out.  I don’t think they ever got a response, even
> though they tried and tried frantically to reach
> someone.  Even had they gotten a response, it would
> have taken Air Sea Rescue crews forever to find them
> at night.
>
> “We are going down!”  They kept screaming into the
> radio.  “We need help!”  There was not a thing anyone
> could do about it.  It was awful.  Soon there was just
> silence.  We never heard or knew what happened to
> them.  We just assumed that they went down in the
> water.  The water was so cold that they wouldn’t have
> been able to survive for over a few minutes.  It was
> awful!
>
> --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > Kevin:
> >      I just got back from Branson and it is 12:50 AM
> > but in checking my
> > e-mail I see your letter and note from Bill Heller.
> > I am trusting a 58 year
> > old memory on this but I'll try. The Tokyo tanks
> > feed into the main tanks by
> > gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300
> > gallons BEFORE the Tokyo
> > tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo tanks
> > fuel. Then the fuel
> > gauges should be watched carefully so the Tokyo fuel
> > could be shut off before
> > the main tank over flowed. When the main tank was
> > again down to about 300
> > gallons the Tokyo tanks could be opened again and
> > the process repeated. On
> > the 3rd time the Tokyo tanks would empty and could
> > be left open I suppose.  I
> > think if the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the
> > main tanks full the main
> > tanks would over flow and most all the gas, except
> > that being used, would go
> > out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo
> > tanks would put fuel
> > into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be
> > consumed by the engines.
> >      Best Wishes, Good night.
> >              Jack Rencher
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 20:44:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:44:24 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
References: <20021010181132.60249.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA5D898.DD5513D2@attglobal.net>

KP ...

We had very little of that stuff in our war.  Once in a
while a man might have been sent to the Medical unit for
psychological evaluation as a result of a very serious
mission where trauma may have played a part. But such was
VERY SELDOM.  As to when we returned to the ZI, nothing
unless you were one of those so affected or FELT that you
were.

The few I had experience with ones who were fraidy cats to
begin with, something I cannot DISAGREE with, for there was
a LOT to be afraid about. HOWEVER, the few I encountered,
including one to disciplinary action ... were merely fellows
who were afraid to fly combat. I had one fellow tell me to
my face that he would NOT go on any more missions. He was
arrested and charged. What happened to him, I do not know,
but the experience was very nerve shattering to one such as
me,  who experienced seeing brave men each day go to their
maker!

In short KP, we were at war. I know this had a far different
connotation THEN  than it does today. But let me remind you
that the purpose of a miliary force is to BE PUT IN HARM'S
WAY to complete a mission. We were EXPENDABLE and all the
niceties of today did not then obtain. Any weak person could
endanger the lives of an entire outfit ... THAT person HAD
to be singled out and dealt with.

Cheers!

WCH

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Did any of you undergo psychological evaluation back
> in the States after your combat our was up?  I've
> heard there was a nice hotel in Florida where some
> where sent.  Does anyone have any recollections if
> they were sent there.  Apparently, crews were
> frandomly picked to go there.
> Thanks!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 21:33:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:33:27 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
In-Reply-To: <20021010181132.60249.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Kevin, how're you doin'?  When I finished up my tour I was sent to Atlantic
City for R & R.  Overjoyed with completion, I tried every means possible to get
into Pilot Training in grade, but was unsuccessful.  For some damned reason, I
couldn't get past the Ishihara (color blindness) test, even though my eyes were
perfect in every other respect...distant vision,  etc, all perfect.  One of my
retests was on my birthday and a buddy suggested I have a couple of bourbons
before the exam....that didn't work either.  And so I went on to Bombardier
Instruction and the war ended...end of episode, beginning of the real test.
Take good care...Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 21:38:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <3DA5D641.9AA3FC83@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021010203828.78946.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks Bill for clearing that up!  I have thought
about that part of his book and never could make sense
of it.  Your explanation makes much more sense.

Yes, Jack's Tokyo Tank post definitely cleared the air
on that question.  I never knew you have to burn off
fuel from the main tanks before fuel could be
transferred from the Tokyo Tanks.

Could a B-17 fly from Gander to Prestwick non stop?

Thanks, again!!
Kevin



--- William Heller  wrote:
> KP ...
> 
> Anent the plane "mushing" along, airspeed falling
> off, etc.,
> this had NOTHING to do with aft or forward load.
> This was
> ICE. Fuel and bomb load were well within CG limits
> and there
> was no need in the B17 to move fuel around for this
> reason.
> In swept back wings it does become necessary and in
> the
> Concorde is done throughout flight. The few C-Ration
> boxes
> they might have moved forward did little to assist
> the
> situation. Most likely this was empennage ice. The
> airspeed
> falls off, the nose goes up and the ONLY way to
> alleviate
> this is to go down to a lower warmer altitude. On
> the North
> Atlantic, this means almost certain fatal.
> 
> Once, on a Lufthansa flight from Paris to Dakar, we
> encountered heavy icing South of Paris prior to the
> Bay of
> Biscay. We immediately descended to a lower, non
> icing,
> altitude and the problem dissappeared. Our EMPENNAGE
> had
> iced up. It was in a Connie. The nose wanted to fo
> up, the
> speed fell off ... and soon, sans action on my part,
> we
> would have fallen out of the sky! Once we sloughed
> off the
> ice on the tail section, we climbed again, made a
> Fuel and
> passenger stop in Lisbon and continued on to Dakar
> where our
> crew terminated. The plane continued on to Rio,
> Buenos Aires
> and Chile. In the days of props like Connies, DC6s,
> etc.,
> this was a common occurrence if one did not pay
> attention.
> Tail deicing did little to assist if the build up
> was quick
> (like it ALWAYS was on the North Atlantic).
> 
> As to Tokyo tanks and/or the use thereof, I believe
> Jack
> Rencher full cleared that up in one of his missives
> on the
> subject.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Sir William von Bsiebsehn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin Pearson wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Jack for your late night reply! 
> Facinating!
> > As a follow up to my post yesterday, I wanted to
> tell
> > the group EXACTLY what my friend told me about the
> > ship that went down flying across the Atlantic and
> > about the nose high attitude of his B-17.  In his
> > book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, he says they
> > flew from Gander Air Base in Newfoundland to
> > Prestwick.  Is this possible?  I thought all crews
> > went through Iceland on the way over.  He also
> > indicates the flight was to last “eight hours, but
> > with a tailwind, the time could be cut to seven.” 
> The
> > time period would have been November or December
> of
> > 1943, he doesn’t mention the date.  The flight was
> at
> > night.  He goes on:
> >
> > “Before long we began hitting rough weather, it
> was
> > snowing again, and the plane was bounced around
> pretty
> > hard.  After a few more minutes, Homer (Navigator)
> > called me back and said, “Take a correction of 20
> > degrees to the left.”
> >
> > “OK,” I said, and we flew for a while on that
> heading.
> >  Now we were picking up ice on the wings, so I was
> > using the deicer.
> >
> > Soon Homer called again.  “Correct 20 degrees to
> the
> > left again.”
> >
> > “OK,” I agreed.  The visibility was breaking up a
> > little, but nonetheless, I was scared to death,
> and I
> > didn’t know if Homer knew what the heck he was
> doing.
> > I was nervous and Joe, my copilot, was nervous. 
> I’m
> > not sure, but I think he was saying a rosary.  I’d
> > have been saying one too, had I not had my hands
> full.
> >  The boys were talking and kidding around on the
> > intercom and laughing, making me all the more
> nervous
> > until I finally ordered, “All right, everybody
> shut
> > up!  And don’t get on that intercom anymore!”
> >
> > Shortly, Homer called and said, “Correct 20
> degrees to
> > the left again.”
> >
> > “What!” I said, “Are you sure?”
> >
> > “Yes, do it,” Homer said.
> >
> > Right then I was convinced Homer was nuts, and
> that we
> > were lost.  I was frantic.  I called him back and
> > said, “Homer!  You dummy!  What the hell are you
> > doing?  I can just see us going around in a big
> > circle.  Are you crazy?”
> >
> > “No, I’m not crazy,” he said, “You correct this
> > airplane right now!”
> >
> > What I didn’t realize at the time was that we had
> a
> > terrific cross wind from the North blowing us off
> > course, and Homer standing in his little hatch
> with
> > his little sextant all night long, was making
> > corrections.  He did a super job.”
> >
> > And about the nose high attitude I mentioned
> > yesterday:
> >
> > “About 3:30 a.m. or 4 a.m., I noticed that my
> airspeed
> > was going down.  Although I had the same power on,
> it
> > was dropping……170……then 165……  I couldn’t figure
> out
> > why, and for a minute, I panicked.  Soon the plane
> was
> > beginning to mush along.  Finally it dawned on me.
> > Because we were using up a lot of gas out of our
> > tanks, the front of the plane was becoming lighter
> as
> > the center of gravity changed.  That meant there
> was
> > only one thing to do; in order to get more
> airspeed,
> > we would have to lighten the back of the plane.
> > Instantly I thought of those 75 cases of “C”
> Rations
> > in the bomb bay.  Well, I thought, it’s either get
> rid
> > of those or take a chance on running out of gas. 
> It
> > didn’t take me long to decide.”
> >
> > How is this possible if the Forts could carry a
> 10,000
> > pound bomb load?  Did you have to transfer fuel
> > manually?
> >
> > And about the crew that went down:
> >
> > “Out there beyond the point of no return, one of
> our
> > planes was in trouble.  Lt. Craig, its pilot from
> some
> > small town in Arkansas, must not have been
> listening
> > when they reminded us about that gas transfer
> valve.
> > He had forgotten to leave that valve open, as he
> was
> > suppose to do, in order to get more gas into the
> main
> > tanks, either the gas line or valve frozen.  We
> could
> > hear him desperately trying to reach Gander Air
> Base’s
> > Air Sea Rescue Station, trying to radio them his
> > approximate location.  We all knew their chances
> of
> > making contact with Gander was not good.  In fact,
> it
> 
=== message truncated ===


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 21:56:03 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:56:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
In-Reply-To: <3DA5D898.DD5513D2@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021010205603.80708.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bill:  My friend, Lou LaHood, flew his 30, came back
to the States by boat, and was asked if he wanted to
go back to active duty or go to this "rest home." 
>From his book:

"At St. Petersberg (FL) we were right on the beach in
a very large building that may bave been a hotel at
one time, but it had been converted into a rest home
for returning Air Force men.  It was beautiful, and so
was the location.  Maids took care of our rooms and
the food was great.  Although we were required to
attend a couple of lectures everyday and to
participate in all the rehabilitative functions such
as swimming, softball, tennis, movies, and golf, being
there was marvelous.  The doctors and psychologists
there were constantly checking us, but everytime they
asked us if we were still pretty nervous, we of course
said, "Yes."  We didn't want to leave that place."

Lou was there two months.  Maybe this was a special
program.  What do you make of this, Bill?  Lou would
have been there after D-Day, maybe July and August of
44.  

I have spent the better part of my life trying to
understand the airwar and that time in history, and I
can honestly say I have a good idea what it was like
to be there, thanks to all of the guys on this forum. 
And you were expendable - that there was no pussy
footing around.  You did you job, men got killed, and
that was that.  Not like today though, however, I
believe we have an excellent fighting force, but I
understand what you mean.

Ice, I'm surprised Lou never figured that out, but
yours is the most rational explanation.

Thanks, Bill!
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Oct 10 18:26:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:26:48 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021010122648.008c1210@ilhawaii.net>

On our last mission on March 20,1945, we were on the bombrun through heavy flak when I saw gasoling pouring off back of the wing. I was sure we had been hit on our last mission. I reported to the pilot and he informed me that the co-pilot was transferring fuel from the tokyo tanks and the gas was overflow. My relief did not last long, as we were hit by ME-262 jets as we came off the target. My most exciting mission!

Jim Walling
>


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 02:16:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:16:00 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
Message-ID: <1bb.7904b44.2ad78050@aol.com>

Kevin and all,
     When I wrote about Tokyo tanks last night I was not aware of the letter 
describing the B17 that went down and the decisions that preceded it.. (1) If 
the pilot followed the advice given him to open the Tokyo tanks before he got 
up in the cold he probably dumped most all the fuel in the Tokyo tanks over 
board through the main tanks overflow vents within the first hour. I am 
assuming the main tanks were full when he took off. (2) Bill was absolutely 
right. His problem was not Caused by using up his gas or the weight in the 
Bombay as both of these loads, there or gone, would not make  any significant 
change in the center of gravity 

  His problem was ICE. When he got ice on the wings it would not change his 
center of gravity much but it would greatly increase his drag and he would 
loose a significant amount of lift. (3) Many do not realize this but the 
horizontal tail in normal flight is not a lifting airfoil. It pushes Down. It 
could get a load of ice on it and because of the moments (leverage) (It is so 
far back). It could get the center of gravity so far back it could cause 
problems, besides the increased drag. the ice would cause.

     It is easy to be a quarter back after the game is over but If you want 
to know what probably happened.  Like most accidents a series of mistakes. 
Why did he go at night into a storm like that? Did he open his Tokyo tanks 
like the ground pounder told him and dump all his Tokyo tanks fuel?  If he 
was picking up heavy ice Why didn't he change altitude? I don't know his 
altitude but going down where he was to find warmer air might have not been 
wise. if he was around or below say 6000 feet or so. If he was 10-12000 feet 
and the outside temperature was 28 -29 degrees F. it might have not been a 
bed decision. He was over water so he had no stuffed clouds to worry about.  
If they had oxygen he could have gone up into colder air that was already 
frozen. If his navigator could shoot a fix there must have been considerable 
clear air above him. He got a 60 degree correction from his navigator if it 
was correct there is no way he could make it to England with a cross wind 
like that. If it was wrong they were hopelessly lost. In either case he 
probably should have turned around (180)and headed back from whence he came. 
He knew what the weather was behind him and even if he was past his point of 
no return there was a lot more coast line and coast guard behind him than 
there was to the east.

     Like the rest of us. He was young. as were his navigator and copilot He 
was a new pilot. He probably didn't have over a 100 hours or so of B17 time.  
When I look back at us I am amazed there wasn't lots more accidents and 
mishaps when we look at how fresh we were out of high school. I am sorry, and 
feel sad for him and the crew, & their families. Sherman was right. It could 
have very well happened to any of us. I suppose this is selfish but I give 
thanks nearly daily I made it through. even though lots of us didn't. Shame 
on me.
     Best Wishes,
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 09:08:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:08:31 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
References: <20021010203828.78946.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA686FE.D1CCA33C@attglobal.net>

KP ...

Gander to Prestwick nonstop? ..... yes. But it depends upon
the load and the winds. West to East on the North Atlantic
one almost ALWAYS has Westerly winds which gives a good
tailwind.

Cheers!

WCH


Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Thanks Bill for clearing that up!  I have thought
> about that part of his book and never could make sense
> of it.  Your explanation makes much more sense.
>
> Yes, Jack's Tokyo Tank post definitely cleared the air
> on that question.  I never knew you have to burn off
> fuel from the main tanks before fuel could be
> transferred from the Tokyo Tanks.
>
> Could a B-17 fly from Gander to Prestwick non stop?
>
> Thanks, again!!
> Kevin
>
> --- William Heller  wrote:
> > KP ...
> >
> > Anent the plane "mushing" along, airspeed falling
> > off, etc.,
> > this had NOTHING to do with aft or forward load.
> > This was
> > ICE. Fuel and bomb load were well within CG limits
> > and there
> > was no need in the B17 to move fuel around for this
> > reason.
> > In swept back wings it does become necessary and in
> > the
> > Concorde is done throughout flight. The few C-Ration
> > boxes
> > they might have moved forward did little to assist
> > the
> > situation. Most likely this was empennage ice. The
> > airspeed
> > falls off, the nose goes up and the ONLY way to
> > alleviate
> > this is to go down to a lower warmer altitude. On
> > the North
> > Atlantic, this means almost certain fatal.
> >
> > Once, on a Lufthansa flight from Paris to Dakar, we
> > encountered heavy icing South of Paris prior to the
> > Bay of
> > Biscay. We immediately descended to a lower, non
> > icing,
> > altitude and the problem dissappeared. Our EMPENNAGE
> > had
> > iced up. It was in a Connie. The nose wanted to fo
> > up, the
> > speed fell off ... and soon, sans action on my part,
> > we
> > would have fallen out of the sky! Once we sloughed
> > off the
> > ice on the tail section, we climbed again, made a
> > Fuel and
> > passenger stop in Lisbon and continued on to Dakar
> > where our
> > crew terminated. The plane continued on to Rio,
> > Buenos Aires
> > and Chile. In the days of props like Connies, DC6s,
> > etc.,
> > this was a common occurrence if one did not pay
> > attention.
> > Tail deicing did little to assist if the build up
> > was quick
> > (like it ALWAYS was on the North Atlantic).
> >
> > As to Tokyo tanks and/or the use thereof, I believe
> > Jack
> > Rencher full cleared that up in one of his missives
> > on the
> > subject.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Sir William von Bsiebsehn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin Pearson wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Jack for your late night reply!
> > Facinating!
> > > As a follow up to my post yesterday, I wanted to
> > tell
> > > the group EXACTLY what my friend told me about the
> > > ship that went down flying across the Atlantic and
> > > about the nose high attitude of his B-17.  In his
> > > book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, he says they
> > > flew from Gander Air Base in Newfoundland to
> > > Prestwick.  Is this possible?  I thought all crews
> > > went through Iceland on the way over.  He also
> > > indicates the flight was to last “eight hours, but
> > > with a tailwind, the time could be cut to seven.”
> > The
> > > time period would have been November or December
> > of
> > > 1943, he doesn’t mention the date.  The flight was
> > at
> > > night.  He goes on:
> > >
> > > “Before long we began hitting rough weather, it
> > was
> > > snowing again, and the plane was bounced around
> > pretty
> > > hard.  After a few more minutes, Homer (Navigator)
> > > called me back and said, “Take a correction of 20
> > > degrees to the left.”
> > >
> > > “OK,” I said, and we flew for a while on that
> > heading.
> > >  Now we were picking up ice on the wings, so I was
> > > using the deicer.
> > >
> > > Soon Homer called again.  “Correct 20 degrees to
> > the
> > > left again.”
> > >
> > > “OK,” I agreed.  The visibility was breaking up a
> > > little, but nonetheless, I was scared to death,
> > and I
> > > didn’t know if Homer knew what the heck he was
> > doing.
> > > I was nervous and Joe, my copilot, was nervous.
> > I’m
> > > not sure, but I think he was saying a rosary.  I’d
> > > have been saying one too, had I not had my hands
> > full.
> > >  The boys were talking and kidding around on the
> > > intercom and laughing, making me all the more
> > nervous
> > > until I finally ordered, “All right, everybody
> > shut
> > > up!  And don’t get on that intercom anymore!”
> > >
> > > Shortly, Homer called and said, “Correct 20
> > degrees to
> > > the left again.”
> > >
> > > “What!” I said, “Are you sure?”
> > >
> > > “Yes, do it,” Homer said.
> > >
> > > Right then I was convinced Homer was nuts, and
> > that we
> > > were lost.  I was frantic.  I called him back and
> > > said, “Homer!  You dummy!  What the hell are you
> > > doing?  I can just see us going around in a big
> > > circle.  Are you crazy?”
> > >
> > > “No, I’m not crazy,” he said, “You correct this
> > > airplane right now!”
> > >
> > > What I didn’t realize at the time was that we had
> > a
> > > terrific cross wind from the North blowing us off
> > > course, and Homer standing in his little hatch
> > with
> > > his little sextant all night long, was making
> > > corrections.  He did a super job.”
> > >
> > > And about the nose high attitude I mentioned
> > > yesterday:
> > >
> > > “About 3:30 a.m. or 4 a.m., I noticed that my
> > airspeed
> > > was going down.  Although I had the same power on,
> > it
> > > was dropping……170……then 165……  I couldn’t figure
> > out
> > > why, and for a minute, I panicked.  Soon the plane
> > was
> > > beginning to mush along.  Finally it dawned on me.
> > > Because we were using up a lot of gas out of our
> > > tanks, the front of the plane was becoming lighter
> > as
> > > the center of gravity changed.  That meant there
> > was
> > > only one thing to do; in order to get more
> > airspeed,
> > > we would have to lighten the back of the plane.
> > > Instantly I thought of those 75 cases of “C”
> > Rations
> > > in the bomb bay.  Well, I thought, it’s either get
> > rid
> > > of those or take a chance on running out of gas.
> > It
> > > didn’t take me long to decide.”
> > >
> > > How is this possible if the Forts could carry a
> > 10,000
> > > pound bomb load?  Did you have to transfer fuel
> > > manually?
> > >
> > > And about the crew that went down:
> > >
> > > “Out there beyond the point of no return, one of
> > our
> > > planes was in trouble.  Lt. Craig, its pilot from
> > some
> > > small town in Arkansas, must not have been
> > listening
> > > when they reminded us about that gas transfer
> > valve.
> > > He had forgotten to leave that valve open, as he
> > was
> > > suppose to do, in order to get more gas into the
> > main
> > > tanks, either the gas line or valve frozen.  We
> > could
> > > hear him desperately trying to reach Gander Air
> > Base’s
> > > Air Sea Rescue Station, trying to radio them his
> > > approximate location.  We all knew their chances
> > of
> > > making contact with Gander was not good.  In fact,
> > it
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 09:13:04 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:13:04 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
References: <20021010205603.80708.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA6880F.1D4AB42F@attglobal.net>

KP ...

Much studying of combat men was done post war and also
during the war. The R&R was almost always usual .... if they
found someone who had been traumatized by their war
experiences, they would study them more. There was always
the urge for the medical and psychological profession to
"study" such people. Whether it did any good, I am not the
one to say.

I went to North Africa after the war endied in the ETO.
Spent some time there and then flew a C54 to California. No
one even wanted to ask me anything and I had done two tours
and been in the ETO two years. End of story.


Cheers!

WCH

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Bill:  My friend, Lou LaHood, flew his 30, came back
> to the States by boat, and was asked if he wanted to
> go back to active duty or go to this "rest home."
> >From his book:
>
> "At St. Petersberg (FL) we were right on the beach in
> a very large building that may bave been a hotel at
> one time, but it had been converted into a rest home
> for returning Air Force men.  It was beautiful, and so
> was the location.  Maids took care of our rooms and
> the food was great.  Although we were required to
> attend a couple of lectures everyday and to
> participate in all the rehabilitative functions such
> as swimming, softball, tennis, movies, and golf, being
> there was marvelous.  The doctors and psychologists
> there were constantly checking us, but everytime they
> asked us if we were still pretty nervous, we of course
> said, "Yes."  We didn't want to leave that place."
>
> Lou was there two months.  Maybe this was a special
> program.  What do you make of this, Bill?  Lou would
> have been there after D-Day, maybe July and August of
> 44.
>
> I have spent the better part of my life trying to
> understand the airwar and that time in history, and I
> can honestly say I have a good idea what it was like
> to be there, thanks to all of the guys on this forum.
> And you were expendable - that there was no pussy
> footing around.  You did you job, men got killed, and
> that was that.  Not like today though, however, I
> believe we have an excellent fighting force, but I
> understand what you mean.
>
> Ice, I'm surprised Lou never figured that out, but
> yours is the most rational explanation.
>
> Thanks, Bill!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 15:29:07 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:07 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
Message-ID: 


rncher?? name  TOKYO tanks. name taken from  some south pacific event or 
where the name came from?? spec


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 16:24:38 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:24:38 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA88@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

I am glad this topic came up, mainly because I have been wondering about it
myself.  Bill H. mentioned in an earlier posting about someone who decided
they no longer would fly any missions. 

My question relates to someone making this decision while ON a mission.  Did
any of you have personal experience or hear of situation where someone "lost
it" on a mission?  If yes, what happened?  If no, can you speculate what the
crew might have done in response?  What options would the crew have had in
order to deal with the situation?  

Thanks,
Dave


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:22:35 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:22:35 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
References: 
Message-ID: <3DA708DB.68383AFA@attglobal.net>

It was said that these tanks would be needed to fly to Tokyo in the war. Sounds
like a good name, but of little consequence in  the whole scenario.  After all
we had the Mae West, and many other nicknames which stuck when used.

Cheers!



IBSPEC@aol.com wrote:

> 
rncher?? name  TOKYO tanks. name taken from  some south pacific event or
> where the name came from?? spec



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:22:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
In-Reply-To: <1bb.7904b44.2ad78050@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021011172212.68896.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  Thanks for your very thorough response!  I am
taken by what you said at the end of you e-mail about
thanking the Lord everyday for making it back and how
that sounds selfish.  I think it sounds human, but I
have never been in combat and seen young men killed.

Lou wrote his book in 1968 and I have found numerous
errors in some of what he wrote.  Lou never mentioned
Tokyo Tanks in his book, that was my error.  When Lou
mentioned auxilliary tanks in his book, I just assumed
he meant Tokyo Tanks.  Lou was quite emphatic about
the course correction thing and three 20 degree
corrections, so was his Navigator, Homer Glass when I
interviewed him.  But time does funny things to our
memories (as I am just now beginning to realize.) 
Regarding the ice, I am quite convinced by you and
Bill that ice was the problem.  I only included
several paragraphs from Lou's book in that section and
he did change altitude a few times - once to a higher
altitude when they first encountered weather and once
to a lower altitude, but he said so they could go off
oxygen because the masks were bothering them.  That
may have saved their lives, in which case, the title
of his book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, would be
very appropriately titled.  If anyone would like to
see the full text of his book from the flight from
Gander to Prestick, I will type it up this weekend. 
I've never understood that part of his book and how
weight in the bomb bay could affect his center of
gravity.  Interesting about a rudder acting as a down
force - I never knew that.  Jack, you and the other
guys on this forum are National Treasures.  Thanks for
helping me to understand all this!  Kevin


__________________________________________________
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:25:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:25:17 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA88@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <3DA7097D.B1DB998A@attglobal.net>

Tooley ...

There was a copilot on board, second in command ... so let us hope that HE was
not ALSO nuts and could take over and run the show.

The person I mentioned was apprehended AFTER a mission when his crew came to me
with their complaint. There WAS something done on the mission in question which
led to this. It caused a mid-air.

WCH



"Tooley, Dave" wrote:

> I am glad this topic came up, mainly because I have been wondering about it
> myself.  Bill H. mentioned in an earlier posting about someone who decided
> they no longer would fly any missions.
>
> My question relates to someone making this decision while ON a mission.  Did
> any of you have personal experience or hear of situation where someone "lost
> it" on a mission?  If yes, what happened?  If no, can you speculate what the
> crew might have done in response?  What options would the crew have had in
> order to deal with the situation?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:26:29 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20021011172629.86611.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Spec:  The origin of the name Tokyo Tanks was kicked
around in the forum about a year ago, I think.  And
all I remember was someone saying that it probably
originated because the added fuel would allow planes
to better reach Tokyo, or something like that.  Maybe
one of the new people might know?
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:37:33 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Psychological Evaluations Post Combat
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA88@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20021011173733.88270.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

Dave:  I have heard of several instances where young
men would loose it in flight.  And it doesn't seem to
matter what your crew position.  I've heard of pilots
loosing it, or to the other extreme, not being able to
function at all.  I've heard of ball gunners who were
just fine when they went into their turrets, but came
out almost like zombies.  I've heard of a tail gunner
who had to be subdued first with morphine and when
that ran out, they punched him and knocked him out. 
When I first watched 12 O'Clock High I thought the
scenes when Gregory Peck "froze" we pure Hollywood,
but it seems I have read somewhere where that came
very close to the truth for one Bomb Group Commander. 
It seems, like Bill Heller said, that some guys just
didn't have what it took to do the job.  I've heard of
big, tough football stars that couldn't hack it, and
the quiet mathematician from a country school that
performed almost super human feats in a burning ship. 
Maybe that is why I am so facinated with this subject
- could I hold up under similar circumstances?  And
the answer is I have no idea.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 18:57:05 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:57:05 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <20021011160221.47E0E5385C@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: 

I always presumed it was a nickname ("these tanks add enough range to get
all the way to Tokyo").  Of course that would depend on where you were
departing from, wouldn't it?  Guam?  Midway?  Chattanooga?
On a related matter, would you have needed bomb bay tanks in the earlier Fs
to make the hop from Brazil to Dakar nonstop?  If so, were they onboard all
the way from Palm Beach to England?  Or would they be installed in Brazil?
I presume the flight nonstop from Morocco to England was also outside the
normal range of a B-17F without Tokyo tanks (or maybe even with them).
I also presume the bomb bay tanks worked similarly to the Tokyo tanks in
that you used them to top off the main tanks a little at a time for the same
reasons.  I further presume that there were sufficient fumes that smoking
would be prohibited with the tanks in the bay.
Could one of you vets confirm or deny some or all of the above?

Mike McClanahan




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 19:50:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:50:48 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
References: <20021011172212.68896.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA71D89.EB4CEB60@attglobal.net>

KP ...

On the North Atlantic in the winter months ... and they were
many .... when encountering heavy icing you CLIMBED to the
extent your aircraft could. To go down was TO GO DOWN for
you did not encounter warmer temps which would gradually
melt the ice. And it was not always the ice which clung to
the leading edge of the wings and thus ruined the lift
ability of the airfoil. Ice on the empennage would do great
harm.

The answer was TO CLIMB even if it meant eventually NOT
getting into the clear, BUT, if the temp was low enough,
further accretion was hindered. In the end, if not yet at
the PNR it was BEST to do a 180 ... for you KNEW the weather
BEHIND you.

Now I am speaking of those things learned and used in the
immediate post war period when various airlines vied for the
North Atlantic trade and were using DC4s for the most part.
I do believe that the crew of that ill fated plane about
which you speak did not have the experience obtained in
those early post war years. After all, there was not too
much international flying prior to this time and to put
these young men in this situation was to absolutely take a
chance. I do believe the VALUE of the 180 was NOT
sufficiently impressed on these young aviators. Even those
of us who flew years before the war did not have THIS type
of experience.

Cheers!

WCH

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Jack:  Thanks for your very thorough response!  I am
> taken by what you said at the end of you e-mail about
> thanking the Lord everyday for making it back and how
> that sounds selfish.  I think it sounds human, but I
> have never been in combat and seen young men killed.
>
> Lou wrote his book in 1968 and I have found numerous
> errors in some of what he wrote.  Lou never mentioned
> Tokyo Tanks in his book, that was my error.  When Lou
> mentioned auxilliary tanks in his book, I just assumed
> he meant Tokyo Tanks.  Lou was quite emphatic about
> the course correction thing and three 20 degree
> corrections, so was his Navigator, Homer Glass when I
> interviewed him.  But time does funny things to our
> memories (as I am just now beginning to realize.)
> Regarding the ice, I am quite convinced by you and
> Bill that ice was the problem.  I only included
> several paragraphs from Lou's book in that section and
> he did change altitude a few times - once to a higher
> altitude when they first encountered weather and once
> to a lower altitude, but he said so they could go off
> oxygen because the masks were bothering them.  That
> may have saved their lives, in which case, the title
> of his book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, would be
> very appropriately titled.  If anyone would like to
> see the full text of his book from the flight from
> Gander to Prestick, I will type it up this weekend.
> I've never understood that part of his book and how
> weight in the bomb bay could affect his center of
> gravity.  Interesting about a rudder acting as a down
> force - I never knew that.  Jack, you and the other
> guys on this forum are National Treasures.  Thanks for
> helping me to understand all this!  Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 20:17:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:17:50 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Tokyo and Bomb Bay Tanks
In-Reply-To: <003a01c27156$acda29a0$02827f18@we1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C27128.995329F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Bob-

Thanks for the info on the tanks.  I remember hearing about the Tokyo tanks
and Doolittle, now that you mention it.
Bill Spofford, one of the guys on my uncle’s plane on the same March 4 trip
you were on, mentioned something to me about the flight through the Atlas
Mountains at night being “a real sweat job,” but didn’t elaborate.  I haven’
t gotten an answer from him, so I wonder if you remember anything about it.
Also, the group was called “The Col. Harris Group” on my uncle’s letters.
There was a Col. Harris who did some lecturing/training at the 91st about
that time and then returned to the states.  Would that have been him?  Do
you know any more about him?

Thanks,

Mike McClanahan


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C27128.995329F0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



















Bo=
b-



 



Th=
anks for
the info on the tanks.  I =
remember
hearing about the Tokyo tanks and Doolittle, now that you mention =
it.



Bi=
ll
Spofford, one of the guys on my uncle’s plane on the same March 4 =
trip you were
on, mentioned something to me about the flight through the Atlas =
Mountains at
night being “a real sweat job,” but didn’t elaborate. =
 I haven’t gotten an =
answer from him, so I
wonder if you remember anything about =
it.



Al=
so, the group
was called “The Col. Harris Group” on my uncle’s =
letters.  There was a Col. Harris who did =
some lecturing/training
at the 91st about that time and then returned to the states. =
 Would that have been him?  Do you know any more about =
him?



 



Th=
anks,



 



Mike McClanahan



 








------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C27128.995329F0--




From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 21:44:27 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:44:27 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Random Thoughts
Message-ID: <66.28c51c66.2ad8922b@aol.com>

Kevin,
      Thank you for your kind words.  I never, to the best of my memory ever 
flew a B17 to England VIA the Northern route. Maybe he did have a Bombay tank 
and called it an Aux. tank.  I didn't think he had that as he had the 
C-rations there. I suppose he could have had one tank and the rations. As for 
the 60 degree course correction. That would worry the pants off me even if I 
was wearing a flight suit.  If the storm was frontal activity it could have 
lasted all the way to England.  If It was of a cyclone type storm They would 
probably fly out of those winds in a 100 miles more or less. In fact they 
would probably reverse direction and be just as strong from the opposite 
direction before they got out of it. The indication that the navigator could 
shoot a fix from an altitude where he was without oxygen and the speed of the 
winds lead me to believe it was cyclone in nature even thought I would 
suspect Fronts would be more common in that area in the cold weather.  I am 
assuming the plane that didn't make it was in the same weather that your 
Friend Lou encountered. 
     Memory: Man are you right about this one. We had a 2000 pound bomb hang 
up in the Bombay once but it fell far enough to pull the safety wire out of 
the tail fuse propeller. There was enough wind through the open Bombay doors 
to spin the little prop off. We had an armed bomb aboard.  The Ball turret 
gunner remembers he got the bomb loose. The bombardier remembers he got the 
bomb loose I remember I got the bomb loose. ( Sometimes I think maybe we all 
3 had the same nightmare and the bomb didn't hang up at all.)  Sometimes I 
think there was no bomb. I was never in the 8th Air Force and just made all 
my wartime experience up and I am just a big phony and bag of wind and doing 
all this e-mail for a bit of self image. 
     Hang in there Kevin,  Best Wishes
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 22:00:28 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:00:28 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Random Thoughts
References: <66.28c51c66.2ad8922b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DA73BEC.ADE0EC59@attglobal.net>

Be assured Jack Rencher is NO mere bag of wind! He is the type they add
"emeritus" to when they print his name.

Cheers!

Sir William von Bsiebsehn


Jprencher@aol.com wrote:

> Kevin,
>       Thank you for your kind words.  I never, to the best of my memory ever
> flew a B17 to England VIA the Northern route. Maybe he did have a Bombay tank
> and called it an Aux. tank.  I didn't think he had that as he had the
> C-rations there. I suppose he could have had one tank and the rations. As for
> the 60 degree course correction. That would worry the pants off me even if I
> was wearing a flight suit.  If the storm was frontal activity it could have
> lasted all the way to England.  If It was of a cyclone type storm They would
> probably fly out of those winds in a 100 miles more or less. In fact they
> would probably reverse direction and be just as strong from the opposite
> direction before they got out of it. The indication that the navigator could
> shoot a fix from an altitude where he was without oxygen and the speed of the
> winds lead me to believe it was cyclone in nature even thought I would
> suspect Fronts would be more common in that area in the cold weather.  I am
> assuming the plane that didn't make it was in the same weather that your
> Friend Lou encountered.
>      Memory: Man are you right about this one. We had a 2000 pound bomb hang
> up in the Bombay once but it fell far enough to pull the safety wire out of
> the tail fuse propeller. There was enough wind through the open Bombay doors
> to spin the little prop off. We had an armed bomb aboard.  The Ball turret
> gunner remembers he got the bomb loose. The bombardier remembers he got the
> bomb loose I remember I got the bomb loose. ( Sometimes I think maybe we all
> 3 had the same nightmare and the bomb didn't hang up at all.)  Sometimes I
> think there was no bomb. I was never in the 8th Air Force and just made all
> my wartime experience up and I am just a big phony and bag of wind and doing
> all this e-mail for a bit of self image.
>      Hang in there Kevin,  Best Wishes
>           Jack



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 22:08:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:08:31 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Nose Art
Message-ID: 

When a B-17 crew asked a BG artist to come up with a painting
for the nose did you first do a preliminary sketch to get their 
approval?  Did you do a chalk outline on the nose of the aircraft
prior to painting? What other techniques were used for painting
the nose, problems that you encountered (other than getting paint.)

Thank you

Greg Pierce
Pres-8thAFHS WA



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 22:13:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:13:50 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <103.1cdb359f.2ad8990e@aol.com>


reunion. garyandor taker of photos. grand coverage. good to view such agile 
humans in photos at their grand ages 80 and over. male and female. lots of 
gentle jitter bugging i bet. bravo to officers and convention chm. for this 
event. spec


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 22:52:29 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
In-Reply-To: <3DA71D89.EB4CEB60@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021011215229.9945.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks Bill:  You are correct on all points, and I now
understand the importence of climbing as opposed to
descending.  I wonder if that other plane that went
down may have had ice instead of running out of fuel. 
That to me seems to be a more pluasible explanation
than running out of gas.

And you or Jark are correct, Lou had just a little
over 100 hours of flying time before he left the
states.

About the 180, in his book he says that "Gander was
packed with airplanes and parking became a critical
problem because of all the snow on the ground - three
feet of it."  I wonder if that's why they didn't 180?

I want you and Jack to know how much I appreciate this
dialogue.  Not sure if you have "connected the dots"
but I went to Germany and found the remains of Lou's
plane, interviewed about everyone I could find about
its last mission.  Your comments are really helping me
see the big picture.
Thanks!
Kevin  
--- William Heller  wrote:
> KP ...
> 
> On the North Atlantic in the winter months ... and
> they were
> many .... when encountering heavy icing you CLIMBED
> to the
> extent your aircraft could. To go down was TO GO
> DOWN for
> you did not encounter warmer temps which would
> gradually
> melt the ice. And it was not always the ice which
> clung to
> the leading edge of the wings and thus ruined the
> lift
> ability of the airfoil. Ice on the empennage would
> do great
> harm.
> 
> The answer was TO CLIMB even if it meant eventually
> NOT
> getting into the clear, BUT, if the temp was low
> enough,
> further accretion was hindered. In the end, if not
> yet at
> the PNR it was BEST to do a 180 ... for you KNEW the
> weather
> BEHIND you.
> 
> Now I am speaking of those things learned and used
> in the
> immediate post war period when various airlines vied
> for the
> North Atlantic trade and were using DC4s for the
> most part.
> I do believe that the crew of that ill fated plane
> about
> which you speak did not have the experience obtained
> in
> those early post war years. After all, there was not
> too
> much international flying prior to this time and to
> put
> these young men in this situation was to absolutely
> take a
> chance. I do believe the VALUE of the 180 was NOT
> sufficiently impressed on these young aviators. Even
> those
> of us who flew years before the war did not have
> THIS type
> of experience.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> WCH
> 
> Kevin Pearson wrote:
> 
> > Jack:  Thanks for your very thorough response!  I
> am
> > taken by what you said at the end of you e-mail
> about
> > thanking the Lord everyday for making it back and
> how
> > that sounds selfish.  I think it sounds human, but
> I
> > have never been in combat and seen young men
> killed.
> >
> > Lou wrote his book in 1968 and I have found
> numerous
> > errors in some of what he wrote.  Lou never
> mentioned
> > Tokyo Tanks in his book, that was my error.  When
> Lou
> > mentioned auxilliary tanks in his book, I just
> assumed
> > he meant Tokyo Tanks.  Lou was quite emphatic
> about
> > the course correction thing and three 20 degree
> > corrections, so was his Navigator, Homer Glass
> when I
> > interviewed him.  But time does funny things to
> our
> > memories (as I am just now beginning to realize.)
> > Regarding the ice, I am quite convinced by you and
> > Bill that ice was the problem.  I only included
> > several paragraphs from Lou's book in that section
> and
> > he did change altitude a few times - once to a
> higher
> > altitude when they first encountered weather and
> once
> > to a lower altitude, but he said so they could go
> off
> > oxygen because the masks were bothering them. 
> That
> > may have saved their lives, in which case, the
> title
> > of his book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, would
> be
> > very appropriately titled.  If anyone would like
> to
> > see the full text of his book from the flight from
> > Gander to Prestick, I will type it up this
> weekend.
> > I've never understood that part of his book and
> how
> > weight in the bomb bay could affect his center of
> > gravity.  Interesting about a rudder acting as a
> down
> > force - I never knew that.  Jack, you and the
> other
> > guys on this forum are National Treasures.  Thanks
> for
> > helping me to understand all this!  Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > http://faith.yahoo.com
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 23:06:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Random Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <66.28c51c66.2ad8922b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021011220616.94732.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  Let me assure you that you are NOT (boldface
and underline) a big phony and bag of wind.  I know
you were just kidding, but you have taught me an
incredible amount of technical stuff I doubt I would
have ever known.  To answer some of your comments:
1.  Judging from what Lou wrote, when he thought the
C-Rats were causing his CG problem, he opened the bomb
bay doors and jettisoned what he thought was the
problem, so I doubt there was an aux. tank there. He
had 75 cases of C-Rats and I would guess 75 would
pretty well fill up a bomb bay. Remember this was in
Nov. or Dec. of 1943, and I'm not sure Tokyo tanks had
been introduced yet or what model of 17 he was flying.
2.  Judging from what I have read, the plane that went
down could not be seen by Lou as all he mentions is
the desperate radio calls.  Too, they were flying at
night and in bad weather, so who knows, they could
have only been a mile apart.  I know the five ships
that left Gander left at the same time and were to
follow the same course.
3.  The Navigator was able to take sightings during
"breaks in the clouds."  Lou said there were "just
enough breaks in the clouds to do the sightings."
4.  It probably wasn't three 20 degree course
corrections either.  I doubt we'll ever be able to
know that for sure.

Thanks again for all your help!
Kevin 
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin,
>       Thank you for your kind words.  I never, to
> the best of my memory ever 
> flew a B17 to England VIA the Northern route. Maybe
> he did have a Bombay tank 
> and called it an Aux. tank.  I didn't think he had
> that as he had the 
> C-rations there. I suppose he could have had one
> tank and the rations. As for 
> the 60 degree course correction. That would worry
> the pants off me even if I 
> was wearing a flight suit.  If the storm was frontal
> activity it could have 
> lasted all the way to England.  If It was of a
> cyclone type storm They would 
> probably fly out of those winds in a 100 miles more
> or less. In fact they 
> would probably reverse direction and be just as
> strong from the opposite 
> direction before they got out of it. The indication
> that the navigator could 
> shoot a fix from an altitude where he was without
> oxygen and the speed of the 
> winds lead me to believe it was cyclone in nature
> even thought I would 
> suspect Fronts would be more common in that area in
> the cold weather.  I am 
> assuming the plane that didn't make it was in the
> same weather that your 
> Friend Lou encountered. 
>      Memory: Man are you right about this one. We
> had a 2000 pound bomb hang 
> up in the Bombay once but it fell far enough to pull
> the safety wire out of 
> the tail fuse propeller. There was enough wind
> through the open Bombay doors 
> to spin the little prop off. We had an armed bomb
> aboard.  The Ball turret 
> gunner remembers he got the bomb loose. The
> bombardier remembers he got the 
> bomb loose I remember I got the bomb loose. (
> Sometimes I think maybe we all 
> 3 had the same nightmare and the bomb didn't hang up
> at all.)  Sometimes I 
> think there was no bomb. I was never in the 8th Air
> Force and just made all 
> my wartime experience up and I am just a big phony
> and bag of wind and doing 
> all this e-mail for a bit of self image. 
>      Hang in there Kevin,  Best Wishes
>           Jack
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Oct 11 23:07:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:07:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Random Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3DA73BEC.ADE0EC59@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20021011220745.17382.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Bill 110%!!

--- William Heller  wrote:
> Be assured Jack Rencher is NO mere bag of wind! He
> is the type they add
> "emeritus" to when they print his name.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Sir William von Bsiebsehn
> 
> 
> Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Kevin,
> >       Thank you for your kind words.  I never, to
> the best of my memory ever
> > flew a B17 to England VIA the Northern route.
> Maybe he did have a Bombay tank
> > and called it an Aux. tank.  I didn't think he had
> that as he had the
> > C-rations there. I suppose he could have had one
> tank and the rations. As for
> > the 60 degree course correction. That would worry
> the pants off me even if I
> > was wearing a flight suit.  If the storm was
> frontal activity it could have
> > lasted all the way to England.  If It was of a
> cyclone type storm They would
> > probably fly out of those winds in a 100 miles
> more or less. In fact they
> > would probably reverse direction and be just as
> strong from the opposite
> > direction before they got out of it. The
> indication that the navigator could
> > shoot a fix from an altitude where he was without
> oxygen and the speed of the
> > winds lead me to believe it was cyclone in nature
> even thought I would
> > suspect Fronts would be more common in that area
> in the cold weather.  I am
> > assuming the plane that didn't make it was in the
> same weather that your
> > Friend Lou encountered.
> >      Memory: Man are you right about this one. We
> had a 2000 pound bomb hang
> > up in the Bombay once but it fell far enough to
> pull the safety wire out of
> > the tail fuse propeller. There was enough wind
> through the open Bombay doors
> > to spin the little prop off. We had an armed bomb
> aboard.  The Ball turret
> > gunner remembers he got the bomb loose. The
> bombardier remembers he got the
> > bomb loose I remember I got the bomb loose. (
> Sometimes I think maybe we all
> > 3 had the same nightmare and the bomb didn't hang
> up at all.)  Sometimes I
> > think there was no bomb. I was never in the 8th
> Air Force and just made all
> > my wartime experience up and I am just a big phony
> and bag of wind and doing
> > all this e-mail for a bit of self image.
> >      Hang in there Kevin,  Best Wishes
> >           Jack
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 01:26:15 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Nose Art
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20021012002615.5342.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

Greg:  I've done some research into issue.  The
quality of artwork was contingent on the abilities of
the artists on hand.  Some nose art was done by mere
amatuers, and then there were those like Tony Starcer
at the 91st, who was a commercial artist before and
after the war.  (Bob Hand:  Did I get that right?) 
Starcer would sometimes have crews do rough sketches
for him prior to painting.  I've seen a couple of
these sketches in private collections. 

The artwork varied to a large degree on the individual
bomb group commander.  Some commanders would not allow
any artwork on any of their planes because of the
sometimes lewd nature of the artwork.

Paints were usually oil based and sometimes thinned
with 100LL aviation fuel and I think Bob Hand told me
there were other kinds of paints used too.

Bob Hand is an artist and did a number of paintings
during the war.  I'm sure Bob will bring a broader
perspective to this dialogue.
Cheers!
Kevin

I have also heard getting red pigment for red paint
was difficult and mentioned this a while back and
several people disagreed with me who were actually
there.
--- "Pierce, Gregory S" 
wrote:
> 
> When a B-17 crew asked a BG artist to come up with a
> painting
> for the nose did you first do a preliminary sketch
> to get their 
> approval?  Did you do a chalk outline on the nose of
> the aircraft
> prior to painting? What other techniques were used
> for painting
> the nose, problems that you encountered (other than
> getting paint.)
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Greg Pierce
> Pres-8thAFHS WA
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 03:01:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:01:17 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Tokyo Tanks
References: 
Message-ID: <003701c27193$411631e0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

I do not recall anyof our crew smoking while in the air. Most of the crew
did smoke, but being young  I son't think any of us really craved to have
asmoke in our mouth at all times.
On board the plane during flight there wwas a;ways thesmell of exhaust and
gas fumes, which was enough of a senory reminder that to light up could be
dangerous.
L. Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McClanahan" 
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:57 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Tokyo Tanks


> I always presumed it was a nickname ("these tanks add enough range to get
> all the way to Tokyo").  Of course that would depend on where you were
> departing from, wouldn't it?  Guam?  Midway?  Chattanooga?
> On a related matter, would you have needed bomb bay tanks in the earlier
Fs
> to make the hop from Brazil to Dakar nonstop?  If so, were they onboard
all
> the way from Palm Beach to England?  Or would they be installed in Brazil?
> I presume the flight nonstop from Morocco to England was also outside the
> normal range of a B-17F without Tokyo tanks (or maybe even with them).
> I also presume the bomb bay tanks worked similarly to the Tokyo tanks in
> that you used them to top off the main tanks a little at a time for the
same
> reasons.  I further presume that there were sufficient fumes that smoking
> would be prohibited with the tanks in the bay.
> Could one of you vets confirm or deny some or all of the above?
>
> Mike McClanahan
>
>
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 05:08:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (rich y)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:08:57 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Tokyo Tanks & smoking
References:  <003701c27193$411631e0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <006301c271a5$17244270$a5604dd1@D4TT9F11>

So far as smoking during flight might I presume it would be unlikely due to
oxygen masks
being a large deterrent as well as one would have many other things to keep
busy with?

Cheers,
Rich Young


> I do not recall anyof our crew smoking while in the air. Most of the crew
> did smoke, but being young  I son't think any of us really craved to have
> asmoke in our mouth at all times.
> On board the plane during flight there wwas a;ways thesmell of exhaust and
> gas fumes, which was enough of a senory reminder that to light up could be
> dangerous.
> L. Christenson





From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 08:00:17 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:00:17 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo tank follow up
References: <20021011215229.9945.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3DA7C880.CF2E59B9@attglobal.net>

KP ...

When life is in the balance, you DO the 180!

Cheers!

WCH

Kevin Pearson wrote:

> Thanks Bill:  You are correct on all points, and I now
> understand the importence of climbing as opposed to
> descending.  I wonder if that other plane that went
> down may have had ice instead of running out of fuel.
> That to me seems to be a more pluasible explanation
> than running out of gas.
>
> And you or Jark are correct, Lou had just a little
> over 100 hours of flying time before he left the
> states.
>
> About the 180, in his book he says that "Gander was
> packed with airplanes and parking became a critical
> problem because of all the snow on the ground - three
> feet of it."  I wonder if that's why they didn't 180?
>
> I want you and Jack to know how much I appreciate this
> dialogue.  Not sure if you have "connected the dots"
> but I went to Germany and found the remains of Lou's
> plane, interviewed about everyone I could find about
> its last mission.  Your comments are really helping me
> see the big picture.
> Thanks!
> Kevin
> --- William Heller  wrote:
> > KP ...
> >
> > On the North Atlantic in the winter months ... and
> > they were
> > many .... when encountering heavy icing you CLIMBED
> > to the
> > extent your aircraft could. To go down was TO GO
> > DOWN for
> > you did not encounter warmer temps which would
> > gradually
> > melt the ice. And it was not always the ice which
> > clung to
> > the leading edge of the wings and thus ruined the
> > lift
> > ability of the airfoil. Ice on the empennage would
> > do great
> > harm.
> >
> > The answer was TO CLIMB even if it meant eventually
> > NOT
> > getting into the clear, BUT, if the temp was low
> > enough,
> > further accretion was hindered. In the end, if not
> > yet at
> > the PNR it was BEST to do a 180 ... for you KNEW the
> > weather
> > BEHIND you.
> >
> > Now I am speaking of those things learned and used
> > in the
> > immediate post war period when various airlines vied
> > for the
> > North Atlantic trade and were using DC4s for the
> > most part.
> > I do believe that the crew of that ill fated plane
> > about
> > which you speak did not have the experience obtained
> > in
> > those early post war years. After all, there was not
> > too
> > much international flying prior to this time and to
> > put
> > these young men in this situation was to absolutely
> > take a
> > chance. I do believe the VALUE of the 180 was NOT
> > sufficiently impressed on these young aviators. Even
> > those
> > of us who flew years before the war did not have
> > THIS type
> > of experience.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > WCH
> >
> > Kevin Pearson wrote:
> >
> > > Jack:  Thanks for your very thorough response!  I
> > am
> > > taken by what you said at the end of you e-mail
> > about
> > > thanking the Lord everyday for making it back and
> > how
> > > that sounds selfish.  I think it sounds human, but
> > I
> > > have never been in combat and seen young men
> > killed.
> > >
> > > Lou wrote his book in 1968 and I have found
> > numerous
> > > errors in some of what he wrote.  Lou never
> > mentioned
> > > Tokyo Tanks in his book, that was my error.  When
> > Lou
> > > mentioned auxilliary tanks in his book, I just
> > assumed
> > > he meant Tokyo Tanks.  Lou was quite emphatic
> > about
> > > the course correction thing and three 20 degree
> > > corrections, so was his Navigator, Homer Glass
> > when I
> > > interviewed him.  But time does funny things to
> > our
> > > memories (as I am just now beginning to realize.)
> > > Regarding the ice, I am quite convinced by you and
> > > Bill that ice was the problem.  I only included
> > > several paragraphs from Lou's book in that section
> > and
> > > he did change altitude a few times - once to a
> > higher
> > > altitude when they first encountered weather and
> > once
> > > to a lower altitude, but he said so they could go
> > off
> > > oxygen because the masks were bothering them.
> > That
> > > may have saved their lives, in which case, the
> > title
> > > of his book, Wings in the Hands of the Lord, would
> > be
> > > very appropriately titled.  If anyone would like
> > to
> > > see the full text of his book from the flight from
> > > Gander to Prestick, I will type it up this
> > weekend.
> > > I've never understood that part of his book and
> > how
> > > weight in the bomb bay could affect his center of
> > > gravity.  Interesting about a rudder acting as a
> > down
> > > force - I never knew that.  Jack, you and the
> > other
> > > guys on this forum are National Treasures.  Thanks
> > for
> > > helping me to understand all this!  Kevin
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > > http://faith.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 09:03:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:03:24 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
Message-ID: <008901c271c5$d8ab5bc0$e3f1a0d8@default>

How far apart were Molesworth and Grafton Underwood and Kimbolton and some
of the other airfields of the First Air Div?    Ive been trying to imagine
what  air traffic must have been like around Molesworth after a mission with
all the Groups stationed in what looks to be very close proximity.






From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 15:49:59 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:49:59 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <1ac.9f95753.2ad6834e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DA7FE57.29799.9F7854@localhost>

With all the talk about the Tokyo tanks, I'm still slightly hung up 
on one of the earlier posts.  Mr Rencher said: 

>   The Tokyo tanks feed into the
> main tanks by gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300
> gallons BEFORE the Tokyo tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo
> tanks fuel. 

First, a minor point, the main tanks were 425 gal.  The B-17 manual 
says to transfer the fuel when the main tanks get down to 100 gal 
rather than 300 gal, however there are many things in the manual, 
which I know were not followed in combat.  I'm curious if this was 
one of those things, that because you didn't know how busy you might 
be when the tanks got down to 100, that in combat you added fuel at 
more frequent intervals, when it was convenient?

   Second question regards the gravity feed thing.  I'm having a hard 
time figuring out how this would be possible, unless the ends of the 
wings where the Tokyo tanks were, were significantly higher than the 
inner sections of the wings where the main tanks were.  When the 
planes are sitting on the ground, the wings seem to be pretty flat, 
and I don't see how you could gravity feed into the main tanks.  
However it occurred to me, that when the plane is in the air, that 
the wings might be flexible enough to be bent into a slight dihedral 
(?sp?), making the ends of the wings higher.  Is this what is 
happening, or are the ends of the wings always higher, and I just 
never noticed it?   Only other thing I can think of, is that I notice 
in the manual, that the Tokyo tanks come folded up, and it was my 
understanding, that when the gas leaves them, that they have a 
tendency to fold up again to some extent, rather than letting in air 
to replace the gas (I may be wrong on this point).  Is it possible 
that the pressure to feed the gas comes from the tank itself trying 
to fold up?   Anyway, I'm having a hard time understanding the 
gravity feed thing when the tanks are to some extent side by side in 
the same wing rather than one significantly higher than the other. 


Then the fuel gauges should be watched carefully so the
> Tokyo fuel could be shut off before the main tank over flowed. When
> the main tank was again down to about 300 gallons the Tokyo tanks
> could be opened again and the process repeated. On the 3rd time the
> Tokyo tanks would empty and could be left open I suppose.  I think if
> the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the main tanks full the main tanks
> would over flow and most all the gas, except that being used, would go
> out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo tanks would put
> fuel into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be consumed by the
> engines.
>      Best Wishes, Good night.
>              Jack Rencher 
> 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 16:07:01 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:07:01 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
Message-ID: <126.1851ef14.2ad99495@aol.com>

Bill,  
     They were close, but I never found it to be one of our big problems as 
long as we stayed in our pattern.  We all used the same beacon to assemble 
and sometimes one would follow the wrong airplane when we had low visibility. 
We would get it straighten out over the beacon as we were assigned different 
altitudes Often times the tail gunners flashed a Morris code letter out the 
tail so you would know who you were following.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 18:15:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:15:16 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
References: <008901c271c5$d8ab5bc0$e3f1a0d8@default>
Message-ID: <3DA858A4.1FB3BA66@attglobal.net>

2 to 4 miles as the Crow flys. This was a concern with new crews. We had to
teach them to make Fighter-type approaches from an element formation when the
Group was brought home over the home Aerdrome. This was NOT taught in the
Training Command for they were interested in their safety record. These
close-in fighter-like approaches were necessary. Also we had to teach new crews
how to fly in a TOTAL blackout. This also caused some problems with a new
crew.  It may be recalled that Jokerst, from the 360th, and I were out with a
new pilot crew doing night takeoff and landing practice when Jokerst crashed
off the end of the runway just ahead of me.

Such training took time and effort and though the Training Command was told
about this, it did not take effect in the ZI. We had to do it in theatre.

WCH



Bill Hoyt wrote:

> How far apart were Molesworth and Grafton Underwood and Kimbolton and some
> of the other airfields of the First Air Div?    Ive been trying to imagine
> what  air traffic must have been like around Molesworth after a mission with
> all the Groups stationed in what looks to be very close proximity.



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 18:20:18 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:20:18 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
References: <3DA7FE57.29799.9F7854@localhost>
Message-ID: <3DA859D3.CFF44436@attglobal.net>

In flight the wing tips are ALWAYS higher than the rest of the wing. As the
plane takes off and the wing accepts the load it must carry, it flexes UP.
This dihedral remains until the plane is again on the ground. I once flew
an aircraft type known as an L-1649A whose wings flexed UP in this manner
as much as EIGHTEEN FEET UP! Also in turbulence this L-1649A wing would
flex UP and DOWN as much as EIGHTEEN FEET.

WCH

Bill Jones wrote:

> With all the talk about the Tokyo tanks, I'm still slightly hung up
> on one of the earlier posts.  Mr Rencher said:
>
> >   The Tokyo tanks feed into the
> > main tanks by gravity.  The main tanks should be down to about 300
> > gallons BEFORE the Tokyo tanks were opened to make space for the Tokyo
> > tanks fuel.
>
> First, a minor point, the main tanks were 425 gal.  The B-17 manual
> says to transfer the fuel when the main tanks get down to 100 gal
> rather than 300 gal, however there are many things in the manual,
> which I know were not followed in combat.  I'm curious if this was
> one of those things, that because you didn't know how busy you might
> be when the tanks got down to 100, that in combat you added fuel at
> more frequent intervals, when it was convenient?
>
>    Second question regards the gravity feed thing.  I'm having a hard
> time figuring out how this would be possible, unless the ends of the
> wings where the Tokyo tanks were, were significantly higher than the
> inner sections of the wings where the main tanks were.  When the
> planes are sitting on the ground, the wings seem to be pretty flat,
> and I don't see how you could gravity feed into the main tanks.
> However it occurred to me, that when the plane is in the air, that
> the wings might be flexible enough to be bent into a slight dihedral
> (?sp?), making the ends of the wings higher.  Is this what is
> happening, or are the ends of the wings always higher, and I just
> never noticed it?   Only other thing I can think of, is that I notice
> in the manual, that the Tokyo tanks come folded up, and it was my
> understanding, that when the gas leaves them, that they have a
> tendency to fold up again to some extent, rather than letting in air
> to replace the gas (I may be wrong on this point).  Is it possible
> that the pressure to feed the gas comes from the tank itself trying
> to fold up?   Anyway, I'm having a hard time understanding the
> gravity feed thing when the tanks are to some extent side by side in
> the same wing rather than one significantly higher than the other.
>
> Then the fuel gauges should be watched carefully so the
> > Tokyo fuel could be shut off before the main tank over flowed. When
> > the main tank was again down to about 300 gallons the Tokyo tanks
> > could be opened again and the process repeated. On the 3rd time the
> > Tokyo tanks would empty and could be left open I suppose.  I think if
> > the Tokyo tanks were turned on with the main tanks full the main tanks
> > would over flow and most all the gas, except that being used, would go
> > out the main tank overflow and be dumped.  The Tokyo tanks would put
> > fuel into the main tanks MUCH faster than it would be consumed by the
> > engines.
> >      Best Wishes, Good night.
> >              Jack Rencher
> >
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 18:24:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:24:52 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
References: <126.1851ef14.2ad99495@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DA85AE4.15EA559F@attglobal.net>

Correct, Jack. Very FEW strayed from following that Aldis Lamp ahead of them on
some of those foggy takeoffs. You are also correct in that the proximity did not
pose a problem for us. However, on a return, if a straggler did NOT follow the
formation, he could stray into other UNWISE territory. I recall some of our very
foggy takeoffs when the 20 second time limit was a MUST if we were to avoid
collisions with planes from another Aerdrome which were going to the same
buncher at different altitudes to afford making their formation.  We DID have a
few collisions, however. When on the accident investigation Board, I recall
walking trhough the debris of some of those collisions. A pilot named Underwood
comes to mind on one of those collisions.

Cheers!

WCH

Jprencher@aol.com wrote:

> Bill,
>      They were close, but I never found it to be one of our big problems as
> long as we stayed in our pattern.  We all used the same beacon to assemble
> and sometimes one would follow the wrong airplane when we had low visibility.
> We would get it straighten out over the beacon as we were assigned different
> altitudes Often times the tail gunners flashed a Morris code letter out the
> tail so you would know who you were following.
>      Jack



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 19:24:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:24:43 +0100
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
References: <126.1851ef14.2ad99495@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006301c2721d$b0df08a0$d024fd3e@RAY>

Hi Jack

In one of your more recent replies, re the above subject, you refer to the
tail gunner flashed a Morris code letter'.

Was this a typing error, or do you Americans call 'morse' code 'morris'
code?

 I know that Morse code is mainly used for audio signalling, but can equally
be used for visual signalling, using the Aldis lamp

Incidentally, Mr past-President, I am sorry to have missed you all at the
Branson get together. Hope you had a really great time.

Regards

Ray Cossey
Norwich, England



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 21:12:19 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:12:19 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
Message-ID: <182.100ed504.2ad9dc23@aol.com>

Bill,
     The next time you see a B17 Stand in front of it and look at the 
dihedral or get a tape measure and measure the height of the wing tip and 
then the wing height say between the two engines on that wing. I suspect you 
will see it does have dihedral even with the weight of the wing on the 
wheels. 
I am trusting my memory when I say down to 300 galloons. Certainly one could 
drain the Tokyo tanks when it was down to 50 gallons or anywhere in between. 
There are several reasons why it is desirable to get the gas and weight out 
of the wing tips first (or early in your flight) 
      The weight out their cuts you rate of roll This make close formation 
and evasive action a bit harder and slower. Battle damage in the lines or 
Tokyo tanks could deprive you of that fuel and if you couldn't get that 540 
gallons (That's 10 drums) of gas out on one wing you might run short and you 
would have one heavy wing. It's way out on the tip of the wing. Suppose for 
some reason like an electric failure, frozen valve or ???  you could not get 
that gas into your main tank. The main tank was empty. There was plenty of 
fuel in the Tokyo tank to get you back to Molesworth, But your Engineer had 
left his overcoat on his bunk and refused to go out in the cold on the wing 
with a 5 gallon can and a siphon hose and get some. Then what would you do? 
Bill? Send the copilot?, Then who would put the gear down and read the check 
list?  If you made it back to land? There is one advantage to having it out 
there. You could pull more Gs before the wing broke off at its root
     I should have said "Down to at least 300 gallons." I estimate it would 
take nearly one hour for them to drain completely. You should be very alert 
and not under a fighter attack if you drained them all at once.
     Best Wishes,
        Jack 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 22:45:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:45:00 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
Message-ID: <3DA85F9C.21775.654182@localhost>

Thanks Bill and Jack.  I never noticed the dihedral before, but I 
looked at a few pictures I have, and I can see it now.
Thanks


 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 23:18:37 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:18:37 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
Message-ID: <165.150ec471.2ad9f9bd@aol.com>

Bill,
    I must be getting awfully old.  I should have said. Get your main tanks 
down to not more than 300 gallons. Sorry Bill. I hope you can find it in your 
heart to forgive me.
     Best Wishes Still,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 23:23:09 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:23:09 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks
In-Reply-To: <3DA85F9C.21775.654182@localhost>
Message-ID: <3DA8688D.11513.8831E1@localhost>


> 
> Thanks Bill and Jack.  I never noticed the dihedral before, but I
> looked at a few pictures I have, and I can see it now. Thanks

In case anyone but me is interested in the Tokyo tanks.
I copied a diagram showing the dihedral of the plane at rest.

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17dim.jpg  

The tokyo tanks are just outside the outboard engine, and the tanks 
they feed are between the two engines
 ( see http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17fuel2.jpg ) .  
   The tokyo tanks are clearly in a higher section of the wing, but 
it looks like the bending Bill Heller mentioned would be necessary to 
get the last drop out.


  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net              
                            
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Oct 12 23:42:38 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:42:38 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Landing Patterns?
Message-ID: <7e.2f6a3107.2ad9ff5e@aol.com>

Dear Friend from the Mother country,
     Ray, I got kicked out of high school my 2nd year and am a very poor 
speller. I suppose Morse code is correct in both countries.  I used to know 
it but I don't no it no mower. I still remember A is Daw dit and N is Dit Daw
     Our reunion was great.  The only thing missing was you, which I deeply 
regret. Our 03 one is in Portland Oregon and 04 is tentatively scheduled for 
Savannah Georgia. Please be sure that the two of you get here so we can have 
a perfect one.
Take care Ray. Best Wishes.
     Jack, Past Prez. 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Oct 13 12:11:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 07:11:50 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Nose Art
In-Reply-To: <20021012002615.5342.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> Hi Kevin:  Well, I was always busy drawing or painting something, or
processing film i