From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 01:06:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rasinman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:06:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop In-Reply-To: Kevin Pearson 's message of Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:34:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29286-3DC1D37C-435@storefull-2358.public.lawson.webtv.net> My reaction to "bombs away" was feeling of getting of a heavy load and running faster and easier and we were at the controls - always - so the lighter plane would be under control without any trouble. The Rasin Man. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 01:57:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop In-Reply-To: <20021031224734.20201.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021101015715.62709.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Bill: "As I remember, it felt like a medium to fast elevator...." I seem to remember others on this forum saying they usually salvoed their bombs. By dropping in train, depending on how the intervolometer was set, the bombs would have been spread over a wide area, which made sense when I heard it. To the others in this forum: Did you mostly salvo the bomb load or drop in train? Were some ships in the Group (Squadron) designated to salvo, while others were to drop in train? The later appears unlikely, especially later in the war when Toggliers did the work. Could a Toggler set an intervolometer? Bill, your "medium to fast elevator reply" helps me understand what it must have felt like! Thanks a lot! Kevin --- bill runnels wrote: > The normal bomb release was in "train" meaning that > one bomb was released at a time. This tended to > reduce > the up-surge of the aircraft. As I remember, it felt > like a medium to fast elevator....Bill Runnels, > bombardier > > > > > > --- Kevin Pearson wrote: > > I have seen it in the movies and read about it. > > When > > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said > > the > > plane bounced up and you could feel it. > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 04:23:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Vents Message-ID: <194.f8094e5.2af35bb5@aol.com> Kevin, As I remember the wing were quite open behind the flaps and alienors. I don't think they were tight enough to need much in the way of vents for fuel vapors outside the tanks. The tanks had vents or over flow vents in the top to let air in as the fuel was used up and to let the tank overflow if they got over filled by transferring fuel. Salvoing bombs was an emergency procedure. We usually dropped them one at a time to space them on the ground. If they were small bombs we usually would want them closer together. If big like 1000 or 2000 pounder they would generally want them farther apart. The Bombardier or togglier set the intervolmeter. We did not do this to dump the load gradually. We usually dropped our bombs in formation and as they dropped we did not go up or down. We stayed in formation. It did make the plane lighter of course but there was no significant change in altitude. There was no way dropping the bombs could cause the engines to overspeed. The engine speed was set by the pilots and it stayed where they wanted it if everything was functioning and it usually was. We generally made a steep [turn after the last bombs left and that I would guess is what the crew might have thought was the elevator effect.' The pilots were flying the bird and it didn't go up or down 6 inches unless they let it, caused it or maybe hit some propwash or rough air. We could back off on the power a bit and still hold our airspeed and usually it was down hill on the way back. If we didn't have any birds on two or three engines and fuel was not a problem we often changed our indicated air speed from 150 MPH to 170 MPH most of the way home. No, The B17 was not violently thrown upward when the bombs were released unless maybe an 88 MM or a 105 went off just under it as the last bomb left. and it didn't go up gently either unless the pilots did it or let it. Best Wishes, Jack. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 04:28:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:28:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F137E@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <003401c2815f$173dd680$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Dave-- as a navigato, I would say to have the Sgt. in question watch the second hand to se if it stopped would keep him eternally occupied and it it stopped then he could wind it and I would not have to stop the claculations I was doing to plot the star line I had just shot with the sextant. What I am saying it would make him feel helpful but it is sort of like taking him snipe hunting. LeRoy Christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tooley, Dave" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:14 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk > John, > I enjoyed your story about crossing the Atlantic. In the story you said: > Sgt. Churchill volunteered his services in the nose of the ship to help the > navigator. I handed him the chronometer and told him to watch the second > hand, and notify me immediately if it stopped. > > What is the significance of the second hand stopping? What happened if or > when it did? > > Thanks! > Dave > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 14:06:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop In-Reply-To: <20021101015715.62709.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021101140609.92493.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> --- > Bill, your "medium to fast elevator reply" helps me > understand what it must have felt like! Thanks a > lot! > Kevin Kevin, while I was there in 1945 we normally set the intervalometer to the minimum bomb separation of 7 feet producing a small foot print pattern at impact. As Jack pointed out, the salvo release was an emergency procedure that took about 15 seconds including opening the bomb bay doors and the bombs left the aircraft unarmed. I am not sure it was possible to salvo internally carried bombs in an armed status. I do disagree a bit with Jack in his assessment that there was no up surge of the aircraft at release. I sure felt one. What ever movement there might have been would be experienced by the entire squadron at the same time so it did not create a disturbance within the formation. I am sure the pilots did everything possible to minimize the movement because of the close formation at time of release. My analysis will probably bring forth disagreement and that is the way it should be after so many years............Bill Runnels, Bombardier __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 14:36:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:36:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop In-Reply-To: <20021101015715.62709.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > >> >> >> >>Hi Kevin: The effectiveness of an intervalometer drop (referred to as 'dropping in train') was multiplied by the sometimes exotic mix of ordinance...for instance a load of 8 500-lb bombs might contain instantaneous high explosives, 500-lb instantaneous incendiaries and a mix of delayed action versions of same to include fragmentation types....hence an initial explosion and fire, followed by subsequent explosion and fire hours later, plus a dose of frags to hassle the firefighters. Multiply this by the total squadron drop and you've got a nasty ground effect. War is war, as 'tis said. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 17:12:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:12:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021101171237.58926.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Jack, Bill and Bob for your explanation of the bomb drop, and to you, Jack, for explaing the wing vents. Freeman mentions the wing vents in The Flying Fortress Story and the vents are clearly visible on the outboard wing tips in the picture next to the explanation. They appear to be smaller versions of the ones behind the engines. As for the bomb drop, I sure don't want to start any disagreements between Bill and Jack!!! In looking at combat footage during the bomb drop, I've never seen a plane rise while releasing, but because the load was decreasing on the airframe and engines, perhaps it just felt like the plane was rising. Is this possible? Bob H., it sounds as if setting the intervolometer could get complex with a mix of ordinance. And I have seen some combat footage where all of the bombs are released at once - who knows where all that footage comes from. Again, guys, thanks a bunch for explaining these things in morte detail. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 17:16:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Supercharger In-Reply-To: <194.f8094e5.2af35bb5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021101171647.36702.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> In the movie the War Lover, when "The Body", McQueens B-17, is started before takeoff, there is a couple of second clip showing the superchargers - I think on the #2 engine. The supercharger has flames coming out of it and it sounds like it is backfiring. Knowing the exhaust gases from the engine drive the impellor of the supercharger, would backfires shoot flames out of the waste gate, or is this just Hollywood? Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 17:25:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down In-Reply-To: <194.f8094e5.2af35bb5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021101172519.46798.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> This may have been discussed before and if it has, I apologize for having a short memory. Much has been written about climbing out and assembly in-route to the target, but not much has been written about letting down after a mission. After bombs away, I believe you guys either climbed or decended a bit to confuse the flak batteries. After that, what happened? Did you decend gradually, maintain altitude to the coast and then let down? At what altitude were you when you crossed the English coast line. Was there a minimum altitude requirement over England because of all the other air traffic. Since "the skies were never still," there must have been rules governing the let down procedure. And was there any restricted air space over England, say Buckingham Palace? I heard about one English dairy farmer that sued the US Government because he claimed our planes were stressing his cows and they were not giving much milk!! I look forward to your answers! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 17:54:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:54:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bomb Drop Message-ID: <17f.11374b43.2af419ef@aol.com> --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Morris-Toggelier 360 Sqd. The greatest effect of bombs away for me was knowing that the powder keg was gone. I always had an uncomfortably feeling that a direct hit in the bomb bay would not leave much behind. It was somewhat relaxing to know I could watch for fighters and be ready to reply to attacks. "Like a ton of weight had been lifted. --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Morris-Toggelier 360 Sqd.

      The greatest effect of bombs away for me was knowing that the powder keg was gone. I always had an uncomfortably feeling that a direct hit in the bomb bay would not leave much behind. It was  somewhat relaxing to know I could watch for fighters and be ready to reply to attacks. "Like a ton of weight had been lifted. --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 18:49:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John Howland) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:49:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs In-Reply-To: <20021101170203.82ACE539AF@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Regarding Sgt Churchill and the stopwatch: Leroy answered it very well. It was sort of like taking him snipe hunting. I was very busy and preoccupied with the job I was trying to do and didn't have time to conduct a class in navigation. Further, as I recall, a 3.5 second error in timing would cause a one mile error in plotting your position. If the watch stopped, I wanted to know about it. John Howland - From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 1 23:09:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:09:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs References: <20021101170203.82ACE539AF@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000901c281fb$c55f3280$0000a398@SHANK> Re: Dropping of bombs - My recollection is that we salvoed the bomb load on a visual drop generally and always dropped "in train" on a Radar drop starting from a known point, usually the Railroad Station in a city as this, apparently, gave a significant footprint on the Radar map. It was then a matter of trying to time the drop to hit, or straddle, a specific point. During the steep turn off the target after the bomb drop, I got the feeling out of the top turret that I was lying on my back and that the planes above us at that point would slide down on us. It was a peculiar feeling. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [303rd-Talk] (Bob Hand) > 2. (no subject) (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 3. Re: Fuel Vents (Kevin Pearson) > 4. Re: RE Airfields near MX (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 5. Thank you! (Marleen Eastin) > 6. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #747 - 1 msg (Kevin Pearson) > 7. Re: The Bomb Drop (Kevin Pearson) > 8. RE: Kevin Pearson's talk (Tooley, Dave) > 9. Re: The Bomb Drop (bill runnels) > 10. Re: The Bomb Drop (Rasinman) > 11. Re: The Bomb Drop (Kevin Pearson) > 12. Re: Fuel Vents (Jprencher@aol.com) > 13. Re: Kevin Pearson's talk (Leroy Audrey) > 14. Re: The Bomb Drop (bill runnels) > 15. Re: The Bomb Drop (Bob Hand) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:56:09 -0500 > From: Bob Hand > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Dear Jack: You grossly underestimate the value of your information-loaded > messages to us fact-starved followers... I know I read them all from top to > bottom and always marvel at your knowledge and memory. Know that we appreciate > the time it takes at the keyboard and please keep up the great work! Good > Health and Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:05:20 EST > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > 
jr, as a late joiner late learning of this grand site. i too thank
you for
> your info and bill heller for his valuable input. does not harry gorbrecth
> have any input. i never see it. spec campen
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:39:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Vents
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I know we've discussed fuel tanks in detail before but
> the tanks were made out of rubber and were self-
> sealing.  In Roger Freeman's book The Flying Fortress
> Story, he discusses vents on the upper portion of the
> wing that allowed fuel vapors out of the wing.  What
> was the origin of this fuel vapor - did it come from
> the tanks themselves to equalize pressure or was it to
> release the vapor trapped in the wing outside of the
> tanks?  Or was it both?
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: IBSPEC@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:14:00 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE Airfields near MX
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> 
yes the various color flares and wings slashing by your nose and
feeling prop
> wash and wondering how we got assembled,timely and in cortrect element of
> flight. spec
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "Marleen Eastin" 
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:15:12 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you!
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Dear Mr. Rencher,
>   I don't write in to ask questions, but I faithfully read everything that
> you and the other great veterns have to say.  You are filling in a lot of
> history that we would never know about without your willingness to so
> patiently talk about it.
>   It is a priviledge to have men such as yourself take their time to
answer
> questions and just talk about the war in general.  All of you are so
> awesome.  I am proud to be just a little part of your lives.
>   God bless everyone of you.  You are tremendously appreciated!!
> Marleen
>
> PS  Thank you too to the list moderators who make all of this possible.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:26:01 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #747 - 1 msg
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Jack:  Please don't feel like you say too much on the
> 303rd site.  I very much enjoy every word you and the
> others write.  In fact, I start my day by reading all
> the posts and it gets me out of my bed in the morning.
>
> I have learned a great deal from you guys - more than
> I ever thought possible.  THANK YOU for taking the
> time to educate the younger fellows on this forum!
> Kevin
>
>
>
> --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > Sometimes when I get home at night and look at my
> > e-mail and see something on
> > our great 303rd TalkI am tempted to answer and then
> > think, "Jack you talk to
> > much. No one is interested in what you have to say.
> > Clean your house up and
> > keep your big fat mouth shut and go to bed. Then I
> > think, No one else will
> > answer that so maybe you should. so sometimes I do.
> >       Then when I get a nice note from another Jack
> > like Jack Amrams and a
> > new friend like Hans Reusink from Holland it makes
> > me happy that I left my
> > house messy and wrote. Thank you fellows for your
> > kind words. You made an old
> > man very happy as he turns his lights off and heads
> > for bed.
> >      Very Best Wishes to you both. Keep the  Faith,
> >             Jack Rencher
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:34:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I have seen it in the movies and read about it.  When
> you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said the
> plane bounced up and you could feel it.  Never having
> dropped 10,000 pounds of bombs out of a plane, can
> anyone describe in more detail what it was like?  How
> much altitude did you gain at bombs away.  When the
> bombs were released, was the plane violently thrown
> upward or was it smooth?  Additionally, were power
> adjustments necessary after loosing that much weight;
> could you overspeed the engines?
> Thanks!
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:14:51 -0600
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> John,
> I enjoyed your story about crossing the Atlantic.  In the story you said:
> Sgt. Churchill volunteered his services in the nose of the ship to help
the
> navigator.  I handed him the chronometer and told him to watch the second
> hand, and notify me immediately if it stopped.
>
> What is the significance of the second hand stopping?  What happened if or
> when it did?
>
> Thanks!
> Dave
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:47:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: bill runnels 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> The normal bomb release was in "train" meaning that
> one bomb was released at a time. This tended to reduce
> the up-surge of the aircraft. As I remember, it felt
> like a medium to fast elevator....Bill Runnels,
> bombardier
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Kevin Pearson  wrote:
> > I have seen it in the movies and read about it.
> > When
> > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said
> > the
> > plane bounced up and you could feel it.   >
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: rasinman65@webtv.net (Rasinman)
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:06:04 -0500 (EST)
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> My reaction to "bombs away" was feeling of getting of a heavy load and
> running  faster and easier and we were at the controls - always - so the
> lighter plane would be under control without any trouble.
>
>    The Rasin Man.
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:57:15 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Bill:  "As I remember, it felt like a medium to fast
> elevator...."
>
> I seem to remember others on this forum saying they
> usually salvoed their bombs.  By dropping in train,
> depending on how the intervolometer was set, the bombs
> would have been spread over a wide area, which made
> sense when I heard it.
>
> To the others in this forum: Did you mostly salvo the
> bomb load or drop in train?  Were some ships in the
> Group (Squadron) designated to salvo, while others
> were to drop in train? The later appears unlikely,
> especially later in the war when Toggliers did the
> work.  Could a Toggler set an intervolometer?
>
> Bill, your "medium to fast elevator reply" helps me
> understand what it must have felt like!  Thanks a lot!
> Kevin
>
>
> --- bill runnels  wrote:
> > The normal bomb release was in "train" meaning that
> > one bomb was released at a time. This tended to
> > reduce
> > the up-surge of the aircraft. As I remember, it felt
> > like a medium to fast elevator....Bill Runnels,
> > bombardier
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Kevin Pearson  wrote:
> > > I have seen it in the movies and read about it.
> > > When
> > > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said
> > > the
> > > plane bounced up and you could feel it.   >
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: Jprencher@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:17 EST
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Vents
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Kevin, As I remember the wing were quite open behind the flaps and
alienors.
> I don't think they were tight enough to need much in the way of vents for
> fuel vapors outside the tanks.  The tanks had vents or over flow vents in
the
> top to let air in as the fuel was used up and to let the tank overflow if
> they got over filled by transferring fuel.
>   Salvoing bombs was an emergency procedure. We usually dropped them one
at a
> time to space them on the ground. If they were small bombs we usually
would
> want them closer together. If big like 1000 or 2000 pounder they would
> generally want them farther apart. The Bombardier or togglier set the
> intervolmeter.  We did not do this to dump the load gradually.  We usually
> dropped our bombs in formation and as they dropped we did not go up or
down.
> We stayed in formation.  It did make the plane lighter of course but there
> was no significant change in altitude. There was no way dropping the bombs
> could cause the engines to overspeed.  The engine speed was set by the
pilots
> and it stayed where they wanted it if everything was functioning and it
> usually was. We generally made a steep [turn after the last bombs left and
> that I would guess is what the crew might have thought was the elevator
> effect.'  The pilots were flying the bird and it didn't go up or down 6
> inches unless they let it, caused it or maybe hit some propwash or rough
air.
> We could back off on the power a bit and still hold our airspeed and
usually
> it was down hill on the way back. If we didn't have any birds on two or
three
> engines and fuel was not a problem we often changed our indicated air
speed
> from 150 MPH to 170 MPH most of the way home. No, The B17 was not
violently
> thrown upward when the bombs were released unless maybe an 88 MM or a 105
> went off just under it as the last bomb left. and it didn't go up gently
> either unless the pilots did it or let it.
>      Best Wishes,
>           Jack.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:28:12 -0600
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Dave--
> as a navigato, I would say to have the Sgt. in question watch the second
> hand to se if it stopped would keep him eternally occupied and it it
stopped
> then he could wind it and I would not have to stop the claculations I was
> doing to plot the star line I had just shot with the sextant.
> What I am saying it would make him feel helpful but it is sort of like
> taking him snipe hunting.
> LeRoy Christenson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:14 PM
> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
>
>
> > John,
> > I enjoyed your story about crossing the Atlantic.  In the story you
said:
> > Sgt. Churchill volunteered his services in the nose of the ship to help
> the
> > navigator.  I handed him the chronometer and told him to watch the
second
> > hand, and notify me immediately if it stopped.
> >
> > What is the significance of the second hand stopping?  What happened if
or
> > when it did?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Dave
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:06:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: bill runnels 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> ---  > Bill, your "medium to fast elevator
> reply" helps me
> > understand what it must have felt like!  Thanks a
> > lot!
> > Kevin
>
>   Kevin, while I was there in 1945 we normally set the
> intervalometer to the minimum bomb separation of 7
> feet producing a small foot print pattern at impact.
> As Jack pointed out, the salvo release was an
> emergency procedure that took about 15 seconds
> including opening the bomb bay doors and the bombs
> left the aircraft unarmed. I am not sure it was
> possible to salvo internally carried bombs in an armed
> status. I do disagree a bit with Jack in his
> assessment that there was no up surge of the aircraft
> at release.  I sure felt one. What ever movement there
> might have been would be experienced by the entire
> squadron at the same time so it did not create a
> disturbance within the formation. I am sure the pilots
> did everything possible to minimize the movement
> because of the close formation at time of release. My
> analysis will probably bring forth disagreement and
> that is the way it should be after so many
> years............Bill Runnels,  Bombardier
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:36:47 -0500
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> From: Bob Hand 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> > >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Hi Kevin:  The effectiveness of an intervalometer drop (referred to as
> 'dropping in train') was multiplied by the sometimes exotic mix of
> ordinance...for instance a load of 8  500-lb bombs might contain
instantaneous
> high explosives, 500-lb instantaneous incendiaries and a mix of delayed
action
> versions of same to include fragmentation types....hence an initial
explosion
> and fire, followed by subsequent explosion and fire hours later, plus a
dose of
> frags to hassle the firefighters. Multiply this by the total squadron drop
and
> you've got a nasty ground effect.  War is war, as 'tis said.  Cheers, Bob
Hand
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Nov  1 23:35:29 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:35:29 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down
In-Reply-To: <20021101172519.46798.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <194.f8094e5.2af35bb5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DC2C971.9826.253488B@localhost>

 
>   After bombs away, I
> believe you guys either climbed or decended a bit to
> confuse the flak batteries.  After that, what
> happened?  Did you decend gradually, maintain altitude
> to the coast and then let down?  ......
 
I hope the vets will respond, but I just wanted to suggest that you 
look at:
http://wejones.ftdata.com/oct3map.jpg 

http://wejones.ftdata.com/M14mapgr.jpg 

http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/plaumap.html

http://wejones.ftdata.com/M23map3.jpg  

http://wejones.ftdata.com/Bremmapt.jpg 

http://wejones.ftdata.com/royanmap.jpg  


These are all mission maps showing altitudes at the different 
waypoints.  For all but one of these examples, the bombs were dropped 
in the 25,000' range, after which, the planes descended gradually, 
waypoint by waypoint in a prescribed manner to about 18,000', at 
which altitude they crossed the channel.  I don't know if this was 
always the practice, but it seems to be what was done in these 
examples.  The one exception in these examples was a mission over 
friendly territory very late in the war, where they dropped down to 
about 5,000 before crossing the channel.
   I'm sure that those who were there can say more, but I find it 
interesting to look at these old maps.  (Some of them are hard to 
read.)
 

 Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net               
                           
 Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones            
 WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html   
 



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Nov  2 00:02:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (jimey fouts)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:02:40 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] fly over
Message-ID: <009401c28203$2eeb98e0$79faaad8@default>

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we got a surprise at our little Pickens Co. airport, Jasper Ga. =
yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 followed by a B-24 for a low =
level pass. Don't know where they came from or where they were going.
Jim Fouts  
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we got a surprise at our little Pickens =
Co.=20
airport, Jasper Ga. yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 followed =
by a=20
B-24 for a low level pass. Don't know where they came from or where they =
were=20
going.


Jim Fouts  <jfouts@tds.net>
=


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Fri Nov  1 23:58:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:58:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]MPI
In-Reply-To: <000901c281fb$c55f3280$0000a398@SHANK>
Message-ID: <20021101235850.42769.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

I have read that 75% of all bombs dropped by the
Eighth fell within 2,000 yards of the MPI (mean point
of impact).  I thought I knew what the MPI was, maybe
I don't.  Is the MPI the same as the AP?  Or is it
something different?  And if a 1000 Pound GP falls
almost a mile from its intended target, I doubt it
could do much damage.

Almost every night on the History Channel they show
bombs hitting an open field with trees in it, we've
all seen it, and the narrator always claims this is
precision bombing at its best.  It looks like three
loads of bombs fall on this field in train, and
although impressive, I always think, "I wonder what
the actual target was?"
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Nov  2 05:32:09 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:32:09 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target
Message-ID: <012c01c28231$3167f4a0$088f0243@default>

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I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 percent of
the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in Brian O'Neills
Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and direction. I
dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be but it raised a
question or three.
What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off a target? Or
was it just by coincidence?
By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe laces. I am
interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn about B-17s from a
manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their time off and guys
fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle
to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here just to read about
B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want to learn what Bill Heller , Jack
Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob Hand, Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson and
everyone else have to say. I find it important to understand who these guys
were not only as a team and crew but also who they were as individuals then
and now.
Thanks to all    Bill Hoyt

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I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 =
percent of=20
the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in =
Brian=20
O'Neills Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and =
direction.=20
I dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be but it raised =
a=20
question or three.


What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off a =
target?=20
Or was it just by coincidence?


By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe =
laces. I=20
am interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn about =
B-17s=20
from a manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their time off =
and guys=20
fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle


to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here just =

to read about B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want=20
to learn what Bill Heller , Jack Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob =
Hand,=20
Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson and everyone else have to say. I find =
it=20
important to understand who these guys were not only as a team and =
crew but=20
also who they were as individuals then and now.


Thanks to all    Bill =
Hoyt     =20



------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C281F6.84306FE0--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Nov  2 11:33:37 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 03:33:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down
In-Reply-To: <3DC2C971.9826.253488B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20021102113337.28680.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Bill Jones <wejones@megalink.net> wrote:
>  
> >   After bombs away, I
> > believe you guys either climbed or decended
a bit
> to
> > confuse the flak batteries.  After that,
what
> > happened?  Did you decend gradually,
maintain
> altitude
> > to the coast and then let down?  ......
>  
  Thanks for sharing your father's mission maps. The
one goal I remember was to cross the enemy lines at an
altitude no lower than 18,000 feet.  This put us above
the small arms range........Bill Runnels

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sat Nov  2 15:01:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:01:10 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target
In-Reply-To: <012c01c28231$3167f4a0$088f0243@default>
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3119076071_30856978
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> Hello, Bill:  In the Lesser Trivia Dept., I enlisted in the A/C as a company
> chauffeur and retired a year or so ago as an illustrator / designer.  Had six
> children along the way of an incredible life.  Now doing some writing and
> painting oils, acrylics, etc.  What else is new?  Good Health and Cheers from
> Johnson  City, Tenn.  Bob Hand



--B_3119076071_30856978
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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Re: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target



Hello, Bill:  In the Lesser Trivia De=
pt., I enlisted in the A/C as a company chauffeur and retired a year or so a=
go as an illustrator / designer.  Had six children along the way of an =
incredible life.  Now doing some writing and painting oils, acrylics, e=
tc.  What else is new?  Good Health and Cheers from Johnson  =
City, Tenn.  Bob Hand









--B_3119076071_30856978--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 03:40:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:40:34 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target
References: <012c01c28231$3167f4a0$088f0243@default>
Message-ID: <000b01c282ea$c4711a60$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

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Bill
I was just the navigator siting up in the nose trying to keep track of =
what the pilot was doing. I always thought it was a natural for the =
pilot to make a left turn at least it seemed the most comfortable for =
him to make  and still watch his position in formation. I do recall some =
missions that we did make right turns--2 trips to Berlin in Feb '45. =
This seemed to be the shortest way  to return back to the orignal flight =
path that brought us into Germany.  Remeber the flight routes were drawn =
to evade flak batteries on the ground.  If the route in proved good =
chances are the going home they would be OK, only if moveable batteries =
had not been moved into place--which sometimes they were.
LeRoy Christenson =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bill Hoyt=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:32 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target


  I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 percent =
of the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in Brian =
O'Neills Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and =
direction. I dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be =
but it raised a question or three.
  What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off a target? =
Or was it just by coincidence?
  By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe =
laces. I am interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn =
about B-17s from a manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their =
time off and guys fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle
  to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here just to read =
about B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want to learn what Bill Heller =
, Jack Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob Hand, Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson =
and everyone else have to say. I find it important to understand who =
these guys were not only as a team and crew but also who they were as =
individuals then and now.
  Thanks to all    Bill Hoyt     =20

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Bill


I was just the navigator siting up in =
the nose=20
trying to keep track of what the pilot was doing. I always thought it =
was a=20
natural for the pilot to make a left turn at least it seemed the most=20
comfortable for him to make  and still watch his position in =
formation. I=20
do recall some missions that we did make right turns--2 trips to Berlin =
in Feb=20
'45. This seemed to be the shortest way  to return back to the =
orignal=20
flight path that brought us into Germany.  Remeber the flight =
routes=20
were drawn to evade flak batteries on the ground.  If the route in =
proved=20
good chances are the going home they would be OK, only if moveable =
batteries had=20
not been moved into place--which sometimes they were.


LeRoy =
Christenson  



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Bill =
Hoyt 
  
  
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 =
11:32=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off =
the=20
  target

  


  
I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 =
percent of=20
  the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in =
Brian=20
  O'Neills Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and=20
  direction. I dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be =
but it=20
  raised a question or three.

  
What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off =
a=20
  target? Or was it just by coincidence?

  
By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe =
laces. I=20
  am interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn =
about B-17s=20
  from a manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their time off =
and guys=20
  fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle

  
to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here =
just=20
  to read about B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want=20
  to learn what Bill Heller , Jack Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob =
Hand,=20
  Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson and everyone else have to say. I find =
it=20
  important to understand who these guys were not only as a team and=20
  crew but also who they were as individuals then and now.

  
Thanks to all    Bill =
Hoyt     =20
  


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 03:44:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:44:43 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] fly over
References: <009401c28203$2eeb98e0$79faaad8@default>
Message-ID: <002101c282eb$58c7a6c0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

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RE: your flyover
could it have been the Collins Foundation planes that heve been on tour =
of the States?
LeRoy Christenson
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: jimey fouts=20
  To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20
  Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 6:02 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] fly over


  we got a surprise at our little Pickens Co. airport, Jasper Ga. =
yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 followed by a B-24 for a low =
level pass. Don't know where they came from or where they were going.
  Jim Fouts  

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RE: your flyover


could it have been the Collins =
Foundation planes=20
that heve been on tour of the States?


LeRoy Christenson



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  jimey =
fouts 
  
  
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 =
6:02=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] fly =
over

  


  
we got a surprise at our little =
Pickens Co.=20
  airport, Jasper Ga. yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 =
followed by a=20
  B-24 for a low level pass. Don't know where they came from or where =
they were=20
  going.

  
Jim Fouts  <jfouts@tds.net>


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 05:20:55 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 22:20:55 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) MPI
Message-ID: <3DC44FC7.6313.66DE2E@localhost>

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:           	"Leroy Audrey" 
To:             	<303rd=talk@303rdBGA.com>
Subject:        	MPI
Date sent:      	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:14:27 -0600

Kevin
We knew all the bombs we were dropping were not hitting the
target and many a bombadier angonizxed over where his drop 
might
have landed. But I do have a couple of impact photos that show 
a
darn good target hit. as for bombs in open fields --what you
must know is that they were fields of brussels sprouts and as a
target of opportunity we were going to rid the world of the 
most
hated vegetable that was being served every meal except at
breakfast. LeRoy Christenson 

------- End of forwarded message --------- Gary --  Webmaster, 
303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
            http://www.303rdBGA.com
            http://www.B17Thunderbird.com



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 05:34:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 00:34:40 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Vets, please keep talking
Message-ID: <135.17032f3d.2af60f70@aol.com>

To Mr. Rencher and all you folks. 

I and countless others appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge 
and experiences. It isn't just battle stories we want to hear. Every 
generation is almost a culture in itself. The attitudes, the morals, the 
feelings, the technology, all differ from generation to generation. My 
grandfather, the late Col. Ford J. Lauer, was a member of the pre-WW2 Air 
Corps, and a pioneer 4 engine pilot. He served from 1925 through 1949. Col. 
Lauer was actually the 303rd BG's first commander, though he left the 303rd 
before it went overseas. He did lead the 99th BG in combat with the 15th AF 
in Italy in 1944. It is sad to me in a way that Col. Lauer never wrote any 
memoirs or recorded his experiences. To think that so much history was buried 
with him when he passed away. I have heard some second hand stories of his 
experiences from my father, and some from vets Col. Lauer flew with. It 
amazes me to think of what Col. Lauer participated in during his lifetime. He 
learned to fly in Curtis Jennys. He was with the group that pioneered the 
B-17. He served with and flew with on a daily basis, the people whose names 
are now legends. People like LeMay, Twinning, Peaslee, Olds, Spatz, 
Upthegrove, Eaker, and countless others. When Col. Lauer entered the Air 
Corps, the Dehavilland DH-4 was the front-line airplane, and when he retired 
it was the Consolidated B-36. It is a loss to all of us that Col. Lauer never 
wrote those memoirs. So I urge all of you to please keep those stories 
coming. And when you get free time now and then, write some of those stories 
down. You don't have to publish a book if you don't want to. Just write it 
down and pass it to your children or grandchildren. Sooner or later one of 
your descendants will, like me, feel so appreciative and proud to be able to 
read such information. I inherited Col. Lauer's "footlocker." It is full of 
over a thousand photos, his flight logs, his medals, his 201 file, a flight 
manual for the "Y1B17 Airplane," and other odds and ends. I cherish 
everything. Some of the photos I sent copies of to the 303rd for posting on 
the web page. It is scary to think that the footlocker was almost thrown away 
back in the 1970's. None of Col. Lauer's sons wanted it. Fortunately, one of 
them told my father to save it for me; that I might want it because I have 
his name. Thank you all for taking the time to write to us, and please keep 
it coming...........Ford J. Lauer III


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 03:59:32 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:59:32 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:chronometer
Message-ID: <003101c282ed$6ae8d8e0$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

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John let's tell them the chronometer was a fancy pocket watch with alot =
of jewels as bearing inside the works, which you could see if you =
unscrewed the back. It had a black faced dial with 24 hour face and the =
time was set Grenwich Mean Time  the standard for celestial navigation. =
Mine was made by the Hamilton Watch Co. and was in a white metal watch =
case.  If it would have had a gold case and 12 hour dial and a gold =
chain it would have been a railroad conductors watch!
We, also had a wristwatch that kept very good time and we would hack =
(coordinate) this with the master chronometer, so while shooting stars =
or planets or? we would could just glance at our wrist which was up near =
our face as we held the sextant.  The trick was to hold the flashlight =
in your mouth so it would illiminate the watch face.
End of Lesson
LeRoy Christenson
will answer on the gee  charts later =20

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C282BB.200B4560
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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John let's tell them the chronometer =
was a fancy=20
pocket watch with alot of jewels as bearing inside the works, which you =
could=20
see if you unscrewed the back. It had a black faced dial with 24 hour =
face and=20
the time was set Grenwich Mean Time  the standard for celestial =
navigation.=20
Mine was made by the Hamilton Watch Co. and was in a white metal watch=20
case.  If it would have had a gold case and 12 hour dial and a gold =
chain=20
it would have been a railroad conductors watch!


We, also had a wristwatch =
that kept very=20
good time and we would hack (coordinate) this with the master =
chronometer, so=20
while shooting stars or planets or? we would could just glance at our =
wrist=20
which was up near our face as we held the sextant.  The trick was =
to hold=20
the flashlight in your mouth so it would illiminate the watch =
face.


End of Lesson


LeRoy Christenson


will answer on the gee  charts=20
later  


------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C282BB.200B4560--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Sun Nov  3 17:19:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:19:12 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #751 - 11 msgs
References: <20021102143001.DAE97538F3@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <001601c2835d$21dfd6b0$0000a398@SHANK>

To Kevin - re: Let down procedures. One condition to be alert about was the
presence of barrage balloon cables in the Southern/London areas. There was a
channel on our VHF radios that put out a warning for those specific areas.
We were returning from a mission to Northern France one day short of fuel
because there had been a delay in leaving our Buncher signal and everyone
was running low. In fact, one of our aircraft ditched in the Channel. As we
approached England, our Pilot asked our Navigator for a heading to the
nearest base. We assumed that heading and proceeded till we received the
balloon signal which required an immediate 180 degree turn. By this time 3
of our tanks were on zero and were kept running by minimal transfers of fuel
from 1 engine which still had a ticking needle. At that point, our Pilot
climbed from the roughly 500 ft. altitude we had at the time to 2000 ft. and
ordered preparation for bail-out. The boys were in the doors when we spotted
a runway by sheer chance and had just enough fuel to make our landing.
Following proper procedures saved us from what could have been a disaster
that day.   Herb Shanker
----- Original Message -----
From: <303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 9:30 AM
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #751 - 11 msgs


> Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: The Bomb Drop (Kevin Pearson)
>    2. Re: The Supercharger (Kevin Pearson)
>    3. Re: The Let Down (Kevin Pearson)
>    4. Re: Bomb Drop (BOMDRPR303@aol.com)
>    5. RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs (John Howland)
>    6. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs (Rose & Herb Shanker)
>    7. Re: The Let Down (Bill Jones)
>    8. fly over (jimey fouts)
>    9. Re: [303rd-Talk]MPI (Kevin Pearson)
>   10. Turn off the target (Bill Hoyt)
>   11. Re: The Let Down (bill runnels)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:12:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Thanks Jack, Bill and Bob for your explanation of the
> bomb drop, and to you, Jack, for explaing the wing
> vents.  Freeman mentions the wing vents in The Flying
> Fortress Story and the vents are clearly visible on
> the outboard wing tips in the picture next to the
> explanation.  They appear to be smaller versions of
> the ones behind the engines.
>
> As for the bomb drop, I sure don't want to start any
> disagreements between Bill and Jack!!!  In looking at
> combat footage during the bomb drop, I've never seen a
> plane rise while releasing, but because the load was
> decreasing on the airframe and engines, perhaps it
> just felt like the plane was rising.  Is this
> possible?
>
> Bob H., it sounds as if setting the intervolometer
> could get complex with a mix of ordinance.  And I have
> seen some combat footage where all of the bombs are
> released at once - who knows where all that footage
> comes from.
>
> Again, guys, thanks a bunch for explaining these
> things in morte detail.
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:16:47 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Supercharger
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> In the movie the War Lover, when "The Body", McQueens
> B-17, is started before takeoff, there is a couple of
> second clip showing the superchargers - I think on the
> #2 engine.  The supercharger has flames coming out of
> it and it sounds like it is backfiring.  Knowing the
> exhaust gases from the engine drive the impellor of
> the supercharger, would backfires shoot flames out of
> the waste gate, or is this just Hollywood?
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:25:19 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This may have been discussed before and if it has, I
> apologize for having a short memory.  Much has been
> written about climbing out and assembly in-route to
> the target, but not much has been written about
> letting down after a mission.  After bombs away, I
> believe you guys either climbed or decended a bit to
> confuse the flak batteries.  After that, what
> happened?  Did you decend gradually, maintain altitude
> to the coast and then let down?  At what altitude were
> you when you crossed the English coast line.  Was
> there a minimum altitude requirement over England
> because of all the other air traffic.  Since "the
> skies were never still," there must have been rules
> governing the let down procedure.  And was there any
> restricted air space over England, say Buckingham
> Palace? I heard about one English dairy farmer that
> sued the US Government because he claimed our planes
> were stressing his cows and they were not giving much
> milk!!
>
> I look forward to your answers!
> Kevin
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: BOMDRPR303@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:54:55 EST
> To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bomb Drop
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Bob Morris-Toggelier 360 Sqd.
>
>       The greatest effect of bombs away for me was knowing that the powder
> keg was gone. I always had an uncomfortably feeling that a direct hit in
the
> bomb bay would not leave much behind. It was  somewhat relaxing to know I
> could watch for fighters and be ready to reply to attacks. "Like a ton of
> weight had been lifted.
>
> --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Bob Morris-Toggelier 360 Sqd.

> 

>       The greatest effect of bombs away for me
was knowing that the powder keg was gone. I always had an uncomfortably
feeling that a direct hit in the bomb bay would not leave much behind. It
was  somewhat relaxing to know I could watch for fighters and be ready
to reply to attacks. "Like a ton of weight had been lifted. 
>
> --part1_17f.11374b43.2af419ef_boundary--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "John Howland" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:49:29 -0600
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Regarding Sgt Churchill and the stopwatch:
>
> Leroy answered it very well.  It was sort of like taking him snipe
hunting.
> I was very busy and preoccupied with the job I was trying to do and didn't
> have time to conduct a class in navigation.  Further, as I recall, a 3.5
> second error in timing would cause a one mile error in plotting your
> position.  If the watch stopped, I wanted to know about it.
>
> John Howland
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "Rose & Herb Shanker" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:09:44 -0500
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> Re: Dropping of bombs - My recollection is that we salvoed the bomb load
on
> a visual drop generally and always dropped "in train" on a Radar drop
> starting from a known point, usually the Railroad Station in a city as
this,
> apparently, gave a significant footprint on the Radar map. It was then a
> matter of trying to time the drop to hit, or straddle, a specific point.
> During the steep turn off the target after the bomb drop, I got the
feeling
> out of the top turret that I was lying on my back and that the planes
above
> us at that point would slide down on us. It was a peculiar feeling.   Herb
> Shanker
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com>
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM
> Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #750 - 15 msgs
>
>
> > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to
> > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: [303rd-Talk] (Bob Hand)
> >    2. (no subject) (IBSPEC@aol.com)
> >    3. Re: Fuel Vents (Kevin Pearson)
> >    4. Re: RE Airfields near MX (IBSPEC@aol.com)
> >    5. Thank you! (Marleen Eastin)
> >    6. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #747 - 1 msg (Kevin Pearson)
> >    7. Re: The Bomb Drop (Kevin Pearson)
> >    8. RE: Kevin Pearson's talk (Tooley, Dave)
> >    9. Re: The Bomb Drop (bill runnels)
> >   10. Re: The Bomb Drop (Rasinman)
> >   11. Re: The Bomb Drop (Kevin Pearson)
> >   12. Re: Fuel Vents (Jprencher@aol.com)
> >   13. Re: Kevin Pearson's talk (Leroy Audrey)
> >   14. Re: The Bomb Drop (bill runnels)
> >   15. Re: The Bomb Drop (Bob Hand)
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:56:09 -0500
> > From: Bob Hand 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > >Dear Jack:  You grossly underestimate the value of your
> information-loaded
> > messages to us fact-starved followers... I know I read them all from top
> to
> > bottom and always marvel at your knowledge and memory.  Know that we
> appreciate
> > the time it takes at the keyboard and please keep up the great work!
Good
> > Health and Cheers, Bob Hand
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 2
> > From: IBSPEC@aol.com
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:05:20 EST
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > 
jr, as a late joiner late learning of this grand site. i too thank
> you for
> > your info and bill heller for his valuable input. does not harry
gorbrecth
> > have any input. i never see it. spec campen
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:39:05 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Vents
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > I know we've discussed fuel tanks in detail before but
> > the tanks were made out of rubber and were self-
> > sealing.  In Roger Freeman's book The Flying Fortress
> > Story, he discusses vents on the upper portion of the
> > wing that allowed fuel vapors out of the wing.  What
> > was the origin of this fuel vapor - did it come from
> > the tanks themselves to equalize pressure or was it to
> > release the vapor trapped in the wing outside of the
> > tanks?  Or was it both?
> > Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 4
> > From: IBSPEC@aol.com
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:14:00 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE Airfields near MX
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > 
yes the various color flares and wings slashing by your nose and
> feeling prop
> > wash and wondering how we got assembled,timely and in cortrect element
of
> > flight. spec
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 5
> > From: "Marleen Eastin" 
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:15:12 -0600
> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you!
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Dear Mr. Rencher,
> >   I don't write in to ask questions, but I faithfully read everything
that
> > you and the other great veterns have to say.  You are filling in a lot
of
> > history that we would never know about without your willingness to so
> > patiently talk about it.
> >   It is a priviledge to have men such as yourself take their time to
> answer
> > questions and just talk about the war in general.  All of you are so
> > awesome.  I am proud to be just a little part of your lives.
> >   God bless everyone of you.  You are tremendously appreciated!!
> > Marleen
> >
> > PS  Thank you too to the list moderators who make all of this possible.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
> > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:26:01 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #747 - 1 msg
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Jack:  Please don't feel like you say too much on the
> > 303rd site.  I very much enjoy every word you and the
> > others write.  In fact, I start my day by reading all
> > the posts and it gets me out of my bed in the morning.
> >
> > I have learned a great deal from you guys - more than
> > I ever thought possible.  THANK YOU for taking the
> > time to educate the younger fellows on this forum!
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> > > Sometimes when I get home at night and look at my
> > > e-mail and see something on
> > > our great 303rd TalkI am tempted to answer and then
> > > think, "Jack you talk to
> > > much. No one is interested in what you have to say.
> > > Clean your house up and
> > > keep your big fat mouth shut and go to bed. Then I
> > > think, No one else will
> > > answer that so maybe you should. so sometimes I do.
> > >       Then when I get a nice note from another Jack
> > > like Jack Amrams and a
> > > new friend like Hans Reusink from Holland it makes
> > > me happy that I left my
> > > house messy and wrote. Thank you fellows for your
> > > kind words. You made an old
> > > man very happy as he turns his lights off and heads
> > > for bed.
> > >      Very Best Wishes to you both. Keep the  Faith,
> > >             Jack Rencher
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:34:00 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > I have seen it in the movies and read about it.  When
> > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said the
> > plane bounced up and you could feel it.  Never having
> > dropped 10,000 pounds of bombs out of a plane, can
> > anyone describe in more detail what it was like?  How
> > much altitude did you gain at bombs away.  When the
> > bombs were released, was the plane violently thrown
> > upward or was it smooth?  Additionally, were power
> > adjustments necessary after loosing that much weight;
> > could you overspeed the engines?
> > Thanks!
> > Kevin
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 8
> > From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:14:51 -0600
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > John,
> > I enjoyed your story about crossing the Atlantic.  In the story you
said:
> > Sgt. Churchill volunteered his services in the nose of the ship to help
> the
> > navigator.  I handed him the chronometer and told him to watch the
second
> > hand, and notify me immediately if it stopped.
> >
> > What is the significance of the second hand stopping?  What happened if
or
> > when it did?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:47:34 -0800 (PST)
> > From: bill runnels 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > The normal bomb release was in "train" meaning that
> > one bomb was released at a time. This tended to reduce
> > the up-surge of the aircraft. As I remember, it felt
> > like a medium to fast elevator....Bill Runnels,
> > bombardier
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Kevin Pearson  wrote:
> > > I have seen it in the movies and read about it.
> > > When
> > > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said
> > > the
> > > plane bounced up and you could feel it.   >
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 10
> > From: rasinman65@webtv.net (Rasinman)
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:06:04 -0500 (EST)
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > My reaction to "bombs away" was feeling of getting of a heavy load and
> > running  faster and easier and we were at the controls - always - so the
> > lighter plane would be under control without any trouble.
> >
> >    The Rasin Man.
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:57:15 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Kevin Pearson 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Bill:  "As I remember, it felt like a medium to fast
> > elevator...."
> >
> > I seem to remember others on this forum saying they
> > usually salvoed their bombs.  By dropping in train,
> > depending on how the intervolometer was set, the bombs
> > would have been spread over a wide area, which made
> > sense when I heard it.
> >
> > To the others in this forum: Did you mostly salvo the
> > bomb load or drop in train?  Were some ships in the
> > Group (Squadron) designated to salvo, while others
> > were to drop in train? The later appears unlikely,
> > especially later in the war when Toggliers did the
> > work.  Could a Toggler set an intervolometer?
> >
> > Bill, your "medium to fast elevator reply" helps me
> > understand what it must have felt like!  Thanks a lot!
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > --- bill runnels  wrote:
> > > The normal bomb release was in "train" meaning that
> > > one bomb was released at a time. This tended to
> > > reduce
> > > the up-surge of the aircraft. As I remember, it felt
> > > like a medium to fast elevator....Bill Runnels,
> > > bombardier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Kevin Pearson  wrote:
> > > > I have seen it in the movies and read about it.
> > > > When
> > > > you dropped your ordinance, most of you have said
> > > > the
> > > > plane bounced up and you could feel it.   >
> > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 12
> > From: Jprencher@aol.com
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:17 EST
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Vents
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Kevin, As I remember the wing were quite open behind the flaps and
> alienors.
> > I don't think they were tight enough to need much in the way of vents
for
> > fuel vapors outside the tanks.  The tanks had vents or over flow vents
in
> the
> > top to let air in as the fuel was used up and to let the tank overflow
if
> > they got over filled by transferring fuel.
> >   Salvoing bombs was an emergency procedure. We usually dropped them one
> at a
> > time to space them on the ground. If they were small bombs we usually
> would
> > want them closer together. If big like 1000 or 2000 pounder they would
> > generally want them farther apart. The Bombardier or togglier set the
> > intervolmeter.  We did not do this to dump the load gradually.  We
usually
> > dropped our bombs in formation and as they dropped we did not go up or
> down.
> > We stayed in formation.  It did make the plane lighter of course but
there
> > was no significant change in altitude. There was no way dropping the
bombs
> > could cause the engines to overspeed.  The engine speed was set by the
> pilots
> > and it stayed where they wanted it if everything was functioning and it
> > usually was. We generally made a steep [turn after the last bombs left
and
> > that I would guess is what the crew might have thought was the elevator
> > effect.'  The pilots were flying the bird and it didn't go up or down 6
> > inches unless they let it, caused it or maybe hit some propwash or rough
> air.
> > We could back off on the power a bit and still hold our airspeed and
> usually
> > it was down hill on the way back. If we didn't have any birds on two or
> three
> > engines and fuel was not a problem we often changed our indicated air
> speed
> > from 150 MPH to 170 MPH most of the way home. No, The B17 was not
> violently
> > thrown upward when the bombs were released unless maybe an 88 MM or a
105
> > went off just under it as the last bomb left. and it didn't go up gently
> > either unless the pilots did it or let it.
> >      Best Wishes,
> >           Jack.
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 13
> > From: "Leroy Audrey" 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:28:12 -0600
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > Dave--
> > as a navigato, I would say to have the Sgt. in question watch the second
> > hand to se if it stopped would keep him eternally occupied and it it
> stopped
> > then he could wind it and I would not have to stop the claculations I
was
> > doing to plot the star line I had just shot with the sextant.
> > What I am saying it would make him feel helpful but it is sort of like
> > taking him snipe hunting.
> > LeRoy Christenson
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tooley, Dave" 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:14 PM
> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson's talk
> >
> >
> > > John,
> > > I enjoyed your story about crossing the Atlantic.  In the story you
> said:
> > > Sgt. Churchill volunteered his services in the nose of the ship to
help
> > the
> > > navigator.  I handed him the chronometer and told him to watch the
> second
> > > hand, and notify me immediately if it stopped.
> > >
> > > What is the significance of the second hand stopping?  What happened
if
> or
> > > when it did?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Dave
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:06:09 -0800 (PST)
> > From: bill runnels 
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> >
> > ---  > Bill, your "medium to fast elevator
> > reply" helps me
> > > understand what it must have felt like!  Thanks a
> > > lot!
> > > Kevin
> >
> >   Kevin, while I was there in 1945 we normally set the
> > intervalometer to the minimum bomb separation of 7
> > feet producing a small foot print pattern at impact.
> > As Jack pointed out, the salvo release was an
> > emergency procedure that took about 15 seconds
> > including opening the bomb bay doors and the bombs
> > left the aircraft unarmed. I am not sure it was
> > possible to salvo internally carried bombs in an armed
> > status. I do disagree a bit with Jack in his
> > assessment that there was no up surge of the aircraft
> > at release.  I sure felt one. What ever movement there
> > might have been would be experienced by the entire
> > squadron at the same time so it did not create a
> > disturbance within the formation. I am sure the pilots
> > did everything possible to minimize the movement
> > because of the close formation at time of release. My
> > analysis will probably bring forth disagreement and
> > that is the way it should be after so many
> > years............Bill Runnels,  Bombardier
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 15
> > Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:36:47 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
> > From: Bob Hand 
> > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >
> > > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Hi Kevin:  The effectiveness of an intervalometer drop (referred to as
> > 'dropping in train') was multiplied by the sometimes exotic mix of
> > ordinance...for instance a load of 8  500-lb bombs might contain
> instantaneous
> > high explosives, 500-lb instantaneous incendiaries and a mix of delayed
> action
> > versions of same to include fragmentation types....hence an initial
> explosion
> > and fire, followed by subsequent explosion and fire hours later, plus a
> dose of
> > frags to hassle the firefighters. Multiply this by the total squadron
drop
> and
> > you've got a nasty ground effect.  War is war, as 'tis said.  Cheers,
Bob
> Hand
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > 303rd-Talk mailing list
> > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk
> >
> >
> > End of 303rd-Talk Digest
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Bill Jones" 
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:35:29 -0500
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> >   After bombs away, I
> > believe you guys either climbed or decended a bit to
> > confuse the flak batteries.  After that, what
> > happened?  Did you decend gradually, maintain altitude
> > to the coast and then let down?  ......
>
> I hope the vets will respond, but I just wanted to suggest that you
> look at:
> http://wejones.ftdata.com/oct3map.jpg
>
> http://wejones.ftdata.com/M14mapgr.jpg
>
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/plaumap.html
>
> http://wejones.ftdata.com/M23map3.jpg
>
> http://wejones.ftdata.com/Bremmapt.jpg
>
> http://wejones.ftdata.com/royanmap.jpg
>
>
> These are all mission maps showing altitudes at the different
> waypoints.  For all but one of these examples, the bombs were dropped
> in the 25,000' range, after which, the planes descended gradually,
> waypoint by waypoint in a prescribed manner to about 18,000', at
> which altitude they crossed the channel.  I don't know if this was
> always the practice, but it seems to be what was done in these
> examples.  The one exception in these examples was a mission over
> friendly territory very late in the war, where they dropped down to
> about 5,000 before crossing the channel.
>    I'm sure that those who were there can say more, but I find it
> interesting to look at these old maps.  (Some of them are hard to
> read.)
>
>
>  Bill Jones  N3JLQ  Sweden Maine   wejones@megalink.net
>
>  Main home page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>  WWII/B-17 page   http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "jimey fouts" 
> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:02:40 -0500
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] fly over
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C281D9.3FF67D00
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> we got a surprise at our little Pickens Co. airport, Jasper Ga. =
> yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 followed by a B-24 for a low =
> level pass. Don't know where they came from or where they were going.
> Jim Fouts  
> ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C281D9.3FF67D00
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> 
> 
>  charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
we got a surprise at our little Pickens =
> Co.=20
> airport, Jasper Ga. yesterday, when out of no where came a B-17 followed =
> by a=20
> B-24 for a low level pass. Don't know where they came from or where they =
> were=20
> going.

> 
Jim Fouts  < href=3D"mailto:jfouts@tds.net">jfouts@tds.net>
=
> 
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C281D9.3FF67D00--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:58:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Pearson 
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]MPI
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> I have read that 75% of all bombs dropped by the
> Eighth fell within 2,000 yards of the MPI (mean point
> of impact).  I thought I knew what the MPI was, maybe
> I don't.  Is the MPI the same as the AP?  Or is it
> something different?  And if a 1000 Pound GP falls
> almost a mile from its intended target, I doubt it
> could do much damage.
>
> Almost every night on the History Channel they show
> bombs hitting an open field with trees in it, we've
> all seen it, and the narrator always claims this is
> precision bombing at its best.  It looks like three
> loads of bombs fall on this field in train, and
> although impressive, I always think, "I wonder what
> the actual target was?"
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Bill Hoyt" 
> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:32:09 -0700
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Turn off the target
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C281F6.84306FE0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="Windows-1252"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 percent of
> the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in Brian O'Neills
> Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and direction. I
> dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be but it raised a
> question or three.
> What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off a target? Or
> was it just by coincidence?
> By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe laces. I
am
> interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn about B-17s from
a
> manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their time off and guys
> fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle
> to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here just to read about
> B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want to learn what Bill Heller , Jack
> Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob Hand, Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson and
> everyone else have to say. I find it important to understand who these
guys
> were not only as a team and crew but also who they were as individuals
then
> and now.
> Thanks to all    Bill Hoyt
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C281F6.84306FE0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="Windows-1252"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> 
> 
>  charset=3Dwindows-1252">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
I was looking at a bunch of mission maps and it looked like 90 =
> percent of=20
> the turns off the target were left turns. The maps were  in =
> Brian=20
> O'Neills Half A Wing. There were little arrows indicating routes and =
> direction.=20
> I dont know how accurate or detailed they were meant to be but it raised =
> a=20
> question or three.

> 
What could be the reasons for choosing which way to turn off a =
> target?=20
> Or was it just by coincidence?

> 
By the way, I dont care if you guys talk about wing tips or shoe =
> laces. I=20
> am interested in  whatever you guys have to say. I can learn about =
> B-17s=20
> from a manual but stuff like where guys went to eat on their time off =
> and guys=20
> fixing heels on shoes on an axehandle

> 
to tipping habits is  pretty good stuff. Im not here just =
>
> to read about B-17s, I can get that on my own, I want=20
> to learn what Bill Heller , Jack Rencher, Jim Walling, Bob =
> Hand,=20
> Maurice Paulk, LeRoy Christenson and everyone else have to say. I find =
> it=20
> important to understand who these guys were not only as a team and =
> crew but=20
> also who they were as individuals then and now.

> 
Thanks to all    Bill =
> Hoyt     =20
> 

>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C281F6.84306FE0--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 03:33:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: bill runnels 
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Let Down
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
>
> --- Bill Jones <wejones@megalink.net> wrote:
> >
> > >   After bombs away, I
> > > believe you guys either climbed or decended
> a bit
> > to
> > > confuse the flak batteries.  After that,
> what
> > > happened?  Did you decend gradually,
> maintain
> > altitude
> > > to the coast and then let down?  ......
> >
>   Thanks for sharing your father's mission maps. The
> one goal I remember was to cross the enemy lines at an
> altitude no lower than 18,000 feet.  This put us above
> the small arms range........Bill Runnels
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
>
>
> End of 303rd-Talk Digest



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Mon Nov  4 02:54:15 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:54:15 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Left turns
Message-ID: <175.11292456.2af73b57@aol.com>

Most of the targets for the mighty 8th A. F. Were south east of our home 
bases.  Most or our bomb runs (not all) were made in an easterly direction. 
If we turned right after Bombs Away we were turning Away from where we wanted 
to go (home to Moleworth) If we turned Left we were a bit closer to home than 
we would have been had we turned right. I suppose this is the reason for the 
left turns, BUT   
     In our 12 plane formation we had 7 Planes to the left of our lead and 4 
to the right. In a sharp turn it was hard for the outside planes to keep up. 
Just maybe it was better for 4 planes to have to speed up than it was for 7 
planes to have to speed up.
 It just dawned on me why we flew as right wing man in the high element so 
much.  I just got home from a 3 day trip.  I'll read the rest of my e-mail 
and answer tomorrow. 
     Good night,
        Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 08:22:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 03:22:34 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
Message-ID: <6a.28a6baba.2af8d9ca@aol.com>

Kevin,
     You won't get me into any argument with Bill or anyone else. My memory 
is not that good. If they disagree with me, they are the right ones. This is 
my opinion only.
No. If one is not looking out or looking at an instrument one cannot tell if 
a plane is going up or down just a little bit. One can feel a CHANGE in RATE 
of climb or descending in the so called seat of his (or her) pants. This is 
caused by a slight change in G forces.  If you are looking out at another 
plane or a cloud top. you cannot tell if it is the other plane or cloud going 
up or down or if you are. If you are looking out at a rock or a tree on a 
mountain top and it is going up you had better get on the throttles and 
elevator QUICKLY. If you go up or down more than a bit or two you can feel 
the change of pressure in your inter ear, but do you know if you went up or 
down only because your ear popped? 
     If you were sitting over your charts with your head in a map and the 
pilot pulled back on the stick or entered a well coordinated turn could you 
tell the difference if the G-forces was the same?


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 07:42:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 02:42:25 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Supercharger
Message-ID: <195.1015a586.2af8d061@aol.com>

Kevin,
     We must be sure here we understand our terms. Really a backfire would be 
in the intake and fire back through the carburetor. We could have an 
explosion in the exhaust that would sound like a backfire and very well be 
called a backfire. In the daylight if fire was coming out the tail pipe, 
waste gate, or exhaust pipe, accompanied with the big bang, it would indicate 
there was unburned fuel getting into the exhaust system. This could be a 
temporary situation in a cold engine that would clear itself up in a few 
seconds. If it did not it should be investigated before flight. It would 
indicate one or more cylinders were not firing. With dual mags and spark 
plugs one would be justified to suspect a stuck or burnt intake valve or ???  
In this case it very well could have been just Hollywood. It could have 
happened but it would not be normal unless the engine just got flooded when 
being started. That could very easily have happened but would clear itself 
right up and probably would not have hurt anything much. 
     I hate to but in all the time, but I didn't see where anyone else had 
given you an answer.  It was a legitimate question
         Jack Rencher.


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 08:28:23 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 03:28:23 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Bomb Drop
Message-ID: <11d.19cff52a.2af8db27@aol.com>

Kevin,
     We set the intervolmeter were we were briefed to set it. We only carried 
one type of bombs on each mission. It would be rare if ever to carry a 
mixture like 500 pounders and 1000 pounders in the same plane on the same 
mission.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 06:57:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:57:48 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Half Sole Shoes
Message-ID: <7f.2ea81089.2af8c5ec@aol.com>

Bill Hoyt.
     It wasn't an ax handle I used. It was a single blade ax. It did have a 
handle on it. I would swing the ax so the blade was well stuck in a stump 
(log) and then use the back of the metal ax to put the shoe over. I could buy 
half soles and shoe tacks on the English market but new heals were not 
available.  I would pull the old heals off a pair of shoes and swap shoes 
with them and tack them back on the opposite shoe from which I removed them. 
Almost every one wore out the outside of their heals so we would have a new 
wearing surface. 
     If it is of any interest to you I also cut hair, sewed patches on, built 
a very successful old used engine oil burning heating stove, an accurate air 
speed indicator that would clamp onto the pilots or copilots partly open 
window.  (It indicated 5 MPH faster in fog or clouds.) On the stove I used my 
45 to drill holes for the oil line. I won't go on. I don't like people to 
know too much about me. Especially the Sheriff
     Best Wishes,
          Jack Rencher


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 13:36:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:36:56 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Supercharger
Message-ID: <14e.16ec281e.2af92378@aol.com>

Kevin,
     I just looked this over after I sent it. I found a horrible mistake. It 
could be caused by either valve but it would more than likely be a burnt or 
stuck exhaust valve. Sorry
  Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 18:11:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:11:49 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Vets, please keep talking
Message-ID: <12c.1a993e43.2af963e5@aol.com>


ford iii, glad you cared enough to share your treasure with us


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 18:14:57 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:14:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Supercharger/JR
In-Reply-To: <195.1015a586.2af8d061@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021105181457.61747.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack:  Another excellent answer and I am so glad you
did "butt in."  I know a lot of my questions must make
many eyes roll, but when I saw that supercharger
"backfiring," it just didn't ring true to me.  Do you
remember seeing that clip in the movie?  It wasn't
like it was shooting fire or making big and loud
explosive noises, it was more just popping. And the
round rotor on the supercharger was spinning around.
Since it was a real Fort, with a real engine and
supercharger, I am assuming what they depicted might
be accurate.  The Fort was probably a war weary one at
best.  Thanks again Jack for your most thorough
explanation.  You're the best!
Kevin


--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin,
>      We must be sure here we understand our terms.
> Really a backfire would be 
> in the intake and fire back through the carburetor.
> We could have an 
> explosion in the exhaust that would sound like a
> backfire and very well be 
> called a backfire. In the daylight if fire was
> coming out the tail pipe, 
> waste gate, or exhaust pipe, accompanied with the
> big bang, it would indicate 
> there was unburned fuel getting into the exhaust
> system. This could be a 
> temporary situation in a cold engine that would
> clear itself up in a few 
> seconds. If it did not it should be investigated
> before flight. It would 
> indicate one or more cylinders were not firing. With
> dual mags and spark 
> plugs one would be justified to suspect a stuck or
> burnt intake valve or ???  
> In this case it very well could have been just
> Hollywood. It could have 
> happened but it would not be normal unless the
> engine just got flooded when 
> being started. That could very easily have happened
> but would clear itself 
> right up and probably would not have hurt anything
> much. 
>      I hate to but in all the time, but I didn't see
> where anyone else had 
> given you an answer.  It was a legitimate question
>          Jack Rencher.
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Tue Nov  5 21:26:01 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:26:01 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Plane availability
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BAA3@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Hi list!
Who had input on whether a plane was able to fly a mission?  Who had the
final say?  If a plane was cleared to fly but the pilot felt otherwise (I am
thinking while on the ground), what happened?  Basically, what were the
procedures for clearing a plane to fly and how were disagreements handled?

Thanks!
Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 02:48:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:48:24 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin Defenses
Message-ID: <14.191a6c9.2af9dcf8@aol.com>

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I seem to remember that Berlin mission briefings warned of a thousand flak 
batteries positioned around Berlin. Can any of you guys corroborate those old 
memories?
Ole Bob  

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I seem to remember that Berlin mission briefings warned of a thousand flak batteries positioned around Berlin. Can any of you guys corroborate those old memories?

Ole Bob  

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 05:02:42 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:02:42 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The War Lover
Message-ID: 

Kevin,
     I don't go to movies much. I don't hear well and I just fall asleep I 
didn't see The War Lover. Besides, I would rather love girls than war. Sorry 
old Buddy.
     Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 11:20:36 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:20:36 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Plane availability
Message-ID: <78.2ff2e91f.2afa5504@aol.com>

Dave,
     In our outfit it was probably the Squadron engineering Officer who had 
the first shot at it. Surely if the Crew Chief thought his plane was unfit to 
fly the Engineering officer was his boss but I doubt if he would override his 
Crew chief unless it was one real maximum effort and they just could not 
scare up or borrow a plane from another squadron. The pilot had the final 
say. If he said I am not going to fly that unsafe bird and risk my crews 9 
(or 8) lives in it I doubt if any CO would court Marshall him.  No doubt if 
this was a common occurrence with that pilot he might very well get done away 
with but this just did not happen to my knowledge.  We were fighting a war. 
It was a very hazardous occupation. We were expendable. We rarely flew a 
mission in a plane that didn't have a red diagonal in its Form 5. If it had a 
red cross, it was grounded period, until that red cross was removed.  The 
crew chief or the engineering  officer or the pilot could put that red cross 
there. We discussed but we didn't argue. We were all fighting and winning the 
same war. The forgoing is my opinion only. If you get answers from a crew 
chief or engineering officer or Bill Heller delete my letter.
      Best Wishes,
            Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 11:33:39 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:33:39 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin Defenses
Message-ID: <148.20cc9ec.2afa5813@aol.com>

Old Bob,
     Yes I think that the 1000 guns around Berlin was suspected and dreaded. 
As far as my personal experience went Merseburg was a bit closer but a much 
more dangerous target. I went to both places a few times but we always just 
barely got back from Merseburg. Once with over 300 holes and on two engines. 
I don't know how many guns they had at Merseburg but the gunners there were 
ACCURATE' Hombres
     Best Wishes,
          Jack


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 12:55:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:55:12 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The War Lover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> Kevin,
>    I don't go to movies much. I don't hear well and I just fall asleep I
> didn't see The War Lover. Besides, I would rather love girls than war. Sorry
> old Buddy.
>    Jack
> 
Yo, Kevin via Jack:  The most gripping sequence in any  movie I've seen was
in Pvt.Ryan where the staff car approaches Mrs. Ryan and she ventures
outside...no dialogue, no music...just about destroyed me. Cheers, Bob Hand  



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 17:01:49 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:01:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin Defenses
In-Reply-To: <14.191a6c9.2af9dcf8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021106170149.30333.qmail@web12002.mail.yahoo.com>

I don't know about Berlin, but I do know about Kiel in
the Summer of 1944.  Men who went to Kiel said, well
you know the cliche, it was so thick you could.... 
They had 200 88s and 105s situated around the harbor. 
I have a list of the flak defenses I picked up at the
(you're going to love this Bill Heller), the authority
in charge with the archives of the City of Kiel.  If
anyone would like a copy, let me know.  It has the
number of the battery, officer in charge, and the
caliber of weapon.
Kevin

--- hans80@aol.com wrote:
> I seem to remember that Berlin mission briefings
> warned of a thousand flak 
> batteries positioned around Berlin. Can any of you
> guys corroborate those old 
> memories?
> Ole Bob  
> 


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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 17:03:13 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:03:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The War Lover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20021106170313.31463.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>

I've got to agree with you there Jack, lovin the women
is a whole lot better than war and I think I
understand how you must feel after being there.
Thanks for all your comments!
Kevin
--- Jprencher@aol.com wrote:
> Kevin,
>      I don't go to movies much. I don't hear well
> and I just fall asleep I 
> didn't see The War Lover. Besides, I would rather
> love girls than war. Sorry 
> old Buddy.
>      Jack
> 


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 17:09:50 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:09:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings
In-Reply-To: <78.2ff2e91f.2afa5504@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021106170950.22400.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

Where did the 303rd get their weather information for
briefings?  Was the a weather squadron on station, or
did the "poop" trickle down from the Wing or Division?

And were the weather forecasts accurage?  Without
satellite technology, it must have been a guessing
game.

When was the weather briefing given?  Was it the same
time as the mission briefing with all crewmen present,
or was the weather briefing given to, say, the
Navigators or Pilots at their separate briefings?
Kevin

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Wed Nov  6 17:15:51 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:15:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] The War Lover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20021106171551.72426.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com>

Jack and Bob:  Yes, the scene in Saving Private Ryan
where the staff car approaches Mrs. Ryan's house is
one of the more heartfelt moments of the movie.  I was
touched by the letter that was read by George Marshall
and written by Abraham Lincoln.  From the veterans
with whoim I have spoken, Speilberg got it right.

At the end of the movie, two P-51s roar in and drop a
bomb on the lead Panzer crossing the bridge.  I found
this to be one of the worst scenes of the movie. 
First of all, the planes were marked as the 78 FG out
of Duxford (black and white checkerboard nose), and
had they dropped any bombs on those bridges, all in
the vicinity would have been no more.  But overall, it
was a good flick.
Kevin
--- Bob Hand  wrote:
> > Kevin,
> >    I don't go to movies much. I don't hear well
> and I just fall asleep I
> > didn't see The War Lover. Besides, I would rather
> love girls than war. Sorry
> > old Buddy.
> >    Jack
> > 
> Yo, Kevin via Jack:  The most gripping sequence in
> any  movie I've seen was
> in Pvt.Ryan where the staff car approaches Mrs. Ryan
> and she ventures
> outside...no dialogue, no music...just about
> destroyed me. Cheers, Bob Hand  
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 04:25:55 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:25:55 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin Defenses
References: <14.191a6c9.2af9dcf8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301c28615$c4a0c160$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wonder if there is somewhere a file of the british supplied pilotage =
maps of the continent showing the position of flak batteries ?  These =
positions were shown as purple circles scribed around the intallations =
and the size of the cirlce indicated their effective area of coverage.
LeRoy Christenson
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: hans80@aol.com=20
  To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:48 PM
  Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin Defenses


  I seem to remember that Berlin mission briefings warned of a thousand =
flak batteries positioned around Berlin. Can any of you guys corroborate =
those old memories?
  Ole Bob =20

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C285E3.79786940
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I wonder if there is somewhere a file =
of the=20
british supplied pilotage maps of the continent showing the position of =
flak=20
batteries ?  These positions were shown as purple circles scribed =
around=20
the intallations and the size of the cirlce indicated their effective =
area of=20
coverage.


LeRoy Christenson


  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  hans80@aol.com 
  
  
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, =
2002 8:48=20
  PM

  
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Berlin=20
  Defenses

  

I seem to remember that Berlin mission briefings =
warned of=20
  a thousand flak batteries positioned around Berlin. Can any of you =
guys=20
  corroborate those old memories?
Ole Bob =20



------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C285E3.79786940--



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 04:38:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:38:00 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <127.1a15744c.2afb4828@aol.com>

Reading some of the accounts of the flight crews who never returned.  I would 
like to know how did the airmen coped, going up every couple days with 
knowledge that they would likely have to keep going up until their plane was 
shot down?  

This country and we owe so much to these men who paid the ultimate price for 
our freedom.  I am greatful for what you did.  You truely define what it 
means to be a hero! 


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 04:42:32 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:42:32 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings
References: <20021106170950.22400.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003601c28618$16a14500$18ac7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com>

Weather--
I flew several night missions to gather weather conditions out to the west
and northwest of England.  As I recall, we (pilot, co-pilot, navigator,
engineer, and some one from weather. Leave Molesworth, fly out acouple
hours, I'd calculate the winds, weather would record height of cloud cover,
% of cover, barometric pressure, temp and whatever else was neccessary. On
the way back the pilot would play motorboat thru the tops of the clouds. On
nights of full moon it was quite  sight.. We would get back a couple of
hours before briefing. On one of these flights, it was the Thunderbird as
the assigned plane.
LeRoy Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings


> Where did the 303rd get their weather information for
> briefings?  Was the a weather squadron on station, or
> did the "poop" trickle down from the Wing or Division?
>
> And were the weather forecasts accurage?  Without
> satellite technology, it must have been a guessing
> game.
>
> When was the weather briefing given?  Was it the same
> time as the mission briefing with all crewmen present,
> or was the weather briefing given to, say, the
> Navigators or Pilots at their separate briefings?
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 06:52:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:52:10 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE The War Lover Bob Hand
Message-ID: <009001c2862a$32f412c0$a9820243@default>

Bob, My mom told me one time that instead of sticking the mail in the
mailbox out by road, the mailman  stopped his car and walked towards the
house. She said my Grand mother (Dads Mom) and she had that same feeling Mrs
Ryan had. They never knew why the mailman decided to bring the mail up to
the door but it scared them to death.
 I guess they thought it was a telegram.
Mom also said the papers would report how many Forts were shot down and she
would think to herself 'My word, how is he ever gonna survive with the odds
like they are? We are losing so many planes?' Well he made it. He was  with
the 360th too!
Maybe some of the Mrs.s'.... Mrs.'.....er  wives could share some moment of
fear or a moment of relief or how the folks at home might have reacted to
good news from the fronts, or finding their loved one had survived another
mission.
Thanks    Billy Hoyt



The most gripping sequence in any  movie I've seen was
in Pvt.Ryan where the staff car approaches Mrs. Ryan and she ventures
outside...no dialogue, no music...just about destroyed me. Cheers, Bob Hand



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 13:05:19 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:05:19 EST
Subject: [303rd-Talk] OLIVER EISENHART
Message-ID: <70.25df9e0f.2afbbf0f@aol.com>

--part1_70.25df9e0f.2afbbf0f_boundary
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SUBJECT WAS A MEMBER OF THE 427TH BS AND IS LISTED AS KIA IN OUR RECORDS.  I 
AM TRYING TO LOCATE HIS FORMER CIVILIAN ADDRESS WHILE A MEMBER OF THE 303RD.  
MY CIVILIAN SEARCH HAS NOT BE FRUITFUL .  IF ANYONE HAS ANY INFO, PLEASE SEND 
ME A MSG AT YOUR CONVENIENCE.
THANKS  BILL EISENHART
  

--part1_70.25df9e0f.2afbbf0f_boundary
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SUBJECT WAS A MEMBER OF THE 427TH BS AND IS LISTED AS KIA IN OUR RECORDS.  I AM TRYING TO LOCATE HIS FORMER CIVILIAN ADDRESS WHILE A MEMBER OF THE 303RD.  MY CIVILIAN SEARCH HAS NOT BE FRUITFUL .  IF ANYONE HAS ANY INFO, PLEASE SEND ME A MSG AT YOUR CONVENIENCE.

THANKS  BILL EISENHART

  

--part1_70.25df9e0f.2afbbf0f_boundary--


From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 14:16:40 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:16:40 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <127.1a15744c.2afb4828@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>I never noticed any reluctance to "get the mission on" from the time we were
awakened at 0430 to the time we were briefed to when we climbed aboard that
frosty flying machine...it was a commitment made a while back in our careers.
To say there weren't moments of sheer terror along the way would be a gross lie,
but in all, a team (squadron/group!!) spirit prevailed and carried us through.
Strangely enough, the events of '44 - '45 are still chillingly called to mind
with memories of the guys who never returned. Good Health and Cheers...
Bob Hand (B) Fink's Crew, 35M



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 16:47:58 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:47:58 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F13B4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Leroy,
Did you fly these weather missions just for the 303rd or did you provide
your findings other groups?  If every group sent out a weather plane it
would seem a waste of gas, crews etc.
Thanks!
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Leroy Audrey [mailto:royaudrey651@attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:43 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings


Weather--
I flew several night missions to gather weather conditions out to the west
and northwest of England.  As I recall, we (pilot, co-pilot, navigator,
engineer, and some one from weather. Leave Molesworth, fly out acouple
hours, I'd calculate the winds, weather would record height of cloud cover,
% of cover, barometric pressure, temp and whatever else was neccessary. On
the way back the pilot would play motorboat thru the tops of the clouds. On
nights of full moon it was quite  sight.. We would get back a couple of
hours before briefing. On one of these flights, it was the Thunderbird as
the assigned plane.
LeRoy Christenson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Pearson" 
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings


> Where did the 303rd get their weather information for
> briefings?  Was the a weather squadron on station, or
> did the "poop" trickle down from the Wing or Division?
>
> And were the weather forecasts accurage?  Without
> satellite technology, it must have been a guessing
> game.
>
> When was the weather briefing given?  Was it the same
> time as the mission briefing with all crewmen present,
> or was the weather briefing given to, say, the
> Navigators or Pilots at their separate briefings?
> Kevin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 16:44:02 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:44:02 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Plane availability
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BAA9@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>

Jack,
I take it that a red strike was meant as a warning that something was wrong
or was potentially wrong.  Correct?  I would also take it that some items
with a red strike were less important than others.  What types of items with
a red strike would you be more concerned about and would cause you to
investigate or talk to the crew chief?  If you saw many red strikes, but no
X's, did this cause you to wonder about the plane's readiness to fly?

Was there a pre-flight inspection conducted by the crew?  Who was
responsible for reviewing this Form 5?  I guess what I am trying to
understand is what all was done by the crew prior to taking off in regards
to determining the plane's air worthiness.  

Thanks for answering my questions!!

Regards,
Dave



From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 18:13:01 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:13:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gold Stars
In-Reply-To: <009001c2862a$32f412c0$a9820243@default>
Message-ID: <20021107181301.1844.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>

My Mother and Father were from a small town in Central
Illinois - Taylorville - and were in high school in
1944 and 1945.  Both have said that you couldn't walk
down any street in town without seeing gold and silver
stars in the window.  I can't imagine how hard it must
have been for the parents of all those boys who went
to war.
Kevin

__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com  Thu Nov  7 18:23:21 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:23:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather Briefings
In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC004319816880012F13B4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <20021107182321.56524.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>

About the only thing I know about weather reporting is
contained in the story below from "Stormy" Mondschein.
 I have posted this story before but with new members,
maybe they'd like to read it.  Stormy was a weather
officer with the 66th Fighter Wing at Fowlmere.  I was
curious in my previous post if weather for the Heavy
Bombardment Groups was conducted in the same way as
the Fighter Groups.  This is a very good story on how
the Fighter Groups disseminated weather data.
Kevin


WWII WEATHER SERVICE IN SUPPORT OF THE 339TH FG AT
FOWLMERE, U.K.
Herman “Stormy” Mondschein
18th Weather Sq. Detachment
	
When I arrived in the U.K. In April 1943, my initial
service was at 8th Air Force HQ in Bushy Park, near
London, for a period of about six months. I was then
transferred to HQ 66th Fighter Wing in Sawston Hall,
where I served as a T/Sgt. forecaster at the 18th
Weather Sq. Detachment there. We served B/Gen. Murray
Woodbury (the Wing Commander) and his staff.  I had
briefed him on numerous occasions, but the most
memorable one was the day before he called a
fighter-bomber low-level strike on coastal targets in
the fall of 1943.  Gen. Woodbury came into our weather
office and told me, the only forecaster on duty that
day, that the Wing’s fighter units had been turned
over to him by 8th Fighter Command, and to pick his
own mission and targets. He asked ME to select the
coastal area for him, which would have less than
5/1Oths cloud cover and good visibility below 5000
feet for the next day, with light surface winds, if
possible.  I studied the charts and picked an area on
the NW coast of France.  He departed after thanking
me, and ordered a low-level strike the next day. 
After digesting post-strike reports, Gen. Woodbury
returned to the weather station and complimented me on
the part I had played in a successful mission.

	Upon transfer to Fowlmere in March 1944 as the
Weather Station Chief, my primary job was to create a
fully functional weather station with our staff of six
other enlisted men, weather observers, and
forecasters, under the command of 1st Lt. John W.
Mason, Jr. (at a later date we obtained two additional
weather officers).  We had just four empty walls on
the lower floor of the concrete control tower, devoid
of any furnishings or equipment.  We had about one
month to get ready for the arrival of a P-51 fighter
group from the states. Equipment was ordered and
delivered. It was installed as expeditiously as
possible. We received blank weather maps of the
U.K.and Europe, weather textbooks and manuals, weather
balloons, hydrogen cylinders, theodolite, etc.  We had
to construct the weather map and data display
furniture from scratch.  We were most fortunate to
have a bunch of eager beavers, including a good
carpenter, Sgt. George Walker, to help with this rush
job.  As a result, we even had to make a few
“moonlight requisitions" over the fence that
surrounded the base lumber pile.  By the grace of God
and a great bunch of guys, the Base Weather Station of
the 18th Weather Sq. Detachment of AAF-378 was alive
and functioning when the 339th arrived.

	The Group brought with them their Staff Weather
Officer, 1st Lt. Jim Norwood.  Our function was to
provide the data, weather observations, forecasts, and
charts to enable him to function in his capacity as
principal advisor to the group and squadron commanders
on weather related matters.  His was the staff
function and ours was the operational or line
function. Needless to say, neither of us operated in a
vacuum, and weather discussions were lively and
stimulating.  He and our weather officers conducted
the formal Group weather briefings for combat
operations and post-flight debriefings. Detachment
weather officers and enlisted forecasters conducted
oral briefings for other flights, and for visiting
pilots who were flying cross-country and needed the
results of these briefings to be entered on their
operational clearance forms.  Our signatures indicated
approval or disapproval of the flight plan based
solely on weather factors; at takeoff, en route,
destination and alternate airports.  It was an awesome
responsibility, and we always “sweated it out” until
we determined that the particular flight we had
approved had been safely completed in weather
conditions that were often less than favorable.

	Our base weather station was open 24 hours a day, 7
days a week, staffed with a minimum of one observer
and one forecaster on duty at all times.  When I was
promoted from M/Sgt., to Warrant Officer (j.g.) in
Sept. 44, I then became authorized to conduct the
pre-flight combat mission weather briefings and
post-flight debriefings.  This gave us a bit more
flexibility, as it took nine people at a minimum to
man our facility round the clock.  We had only ten to
also cover leave, illness and extra busy times, with
additional help provided by the Staff Weather Officer.
 It was often a tussle with the units to which we were
attached for administrative purposes, the Service
Squadron until VEDay, and the 505th after, to keep
from performing other duties, such as K.P., guard
duty, Officer of the Day, barracks inspections, roll
calls, etc.  Our mandate was weather duty only, and
because of the rotating shifts we worked, we