From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 1 18:12:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:12:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crews Message-ID: Hi list, If I understand correctly, each plane had it's own ground crew assigned to it. Can someone tell me how many members were on that crew and what each person was responsible for? Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 2 01:54:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:54:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: T/Sgt Baldemero A. Estala Message-ID: <200205012054.AA542245178@etbyte.net> Thanks,for the help.getting in touch with them. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Francisco Quinonez Lopez" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:44:25 -0400 >Very good report like know rest of crew andother 10 B-17 lost >do you know a good board for the 96th B.G. information appreciated. > > > > >---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 13:59:38 EDT > >>Roger Estala >>Re your message on the 303rd BG(H) Talk Forum >>Group Assignment >>Your Father, T/Sgt Baldemero A. Estala was the Radio Operator on the Capt >>Milton H. Shoesmith Lead Crew assigned to the 337th Bomb Squadron, 96th >>Bombardment Group (H), 45th Combat Wing, 3rd Air Division, Eighth Air Force, >>at Snetterton Heath, England. >>Crew Loss >>The "Snetterton Falcons" were on their mission #122 to Brunswick, Germany on >>May 8, 1944 The Capt Shoesmith Crew was leading the 96th BG "B" formation. >>The group was attacked by German fighters and eleven 96th BG B-17's were shot >>down. >>The Capt Shoesmith crew were flying in B-17G-10-VE Serial #42-39998 which had >>no assigned name. The B-17 crashed at Rosthausen near Clappenburg, Germany. >>The eleven crewmen became POW's (The crew had an extra man flying as an >>Observer). >>Identification Markings >>B-17 #42-39998 carried the Squadron and aircraft letters "QJ-N" on the sides >>of the fuselage. All 96th BG B-17's had the Group identification insignia, >>Black Square with a White "C", on the top of each side of the tail surfaces, >>with the serial number below the Group insignia and aircraft letter centered >>below the serial number. The Square "C" insignia also appeared on the right >>upper wing surface and left lower wing surface. >>96th BG(H) Web Page >>See: http://www.azstarnet.com/nonprofit/96thbg >> >>Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association >> >> > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 3 17:02:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:02:13 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] An excercise in plane design Hi guys1.doc [1/7] Message-ID: <000701c1f2bc$0eb59840$8d25fd3e@RAY> From: "ray.cossey1" To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: An excercise in plane design Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:02:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1F2C4.53BE0B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1F2C4.53BE0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys Here's something to amuse you. 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I deleted all of them but this first one. I'm not sure what you were sending, but if you have it in a .jpg file, under 100 kb, it may come through, although I am not sure. Maybe Gary has an idea of what went wrong, but I believe it was sent as a picture, and just didn't transfer properly. Gordy. (helping Gary on the list) Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of ray.cossey1 Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 9:02 AM To: 303rdBG Talk Subject: [303rd-Talk] An excercise in plane design Hi guys1.doc [1/7] From: "ray.cossey1" To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: An excercise in plane design Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:02:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1F2C4.53BE0B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1F2C4.53BE0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys Here's something to amuse you. 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MpZmlZxak/7xNoarHP7xBpgpgspJkMz1fSgbGQVZyLr083OoefLbzio4JJW46BlROda3BQzLcv1h GOZlRKXefXDd5uzPP593fRMcmZBd1jK6zhCKPU9eIkvm1EwSVWEzEMxRNUtN6gvKlus0D6L3Mqvf XJ0ZbCr4FHT/luttt3sPngQkFte2jevJdQkUu4Vhqsx4tHQ9TGyg+vb9noKNDm41MESOpOQ7Y7wg 7461/3rA8ncwDAeGJKIN7+5izyHE8BIh/CKm9K5TpSSBCp7Ca+bXlvu+xEf5PMgdZEWcQOM1L3Is Xr0CvllQYzLRCUBmHJTZJVI8lAUeHhmb41u0uaKXRINhRb86MzE+2Fb9Nf6Nm9vrsKSo8CC/d15v 30eFfQ73CQwISgwK8HobFJ72ISTILyA6MTE1PSM9NTk55XP8p8TUjIy0tLT09IzMrKzs7JzcnOzM 9Izs9IK8T796ZWbnFxYVFxUVFuTn4l+npaTlFpV8LSypr29obq4r/dLfPzg6Prmw0ZX87MaNZynd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 4 07:35:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 07:35:11 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] An excercise in plane design Hi guys1.doc [1/7] References: Message-ID: <000901c1f335$f4055150$5824fd3e@RAY> Gordy The last message I sent was, as you surmised, drawings which, because of the overall size, my processor broke down into seven parts. The first of these must have comprised the main text and the rest carried the attachment, which showed the drawings. By killing off the other six files the drawings within the attachment, were binned as it were. You are probably right that there is an incompatibility somewhere and we will have to write it off and just stick to plain text in future. The problem is that we are all using possibly different processing systems, although the one I used to create the drawings (Word for Windows XP) is fairly common, but the most recently introduced, which may explain the difficulty it presents to some recipients. Sorry to cause such mayhem! Best wishes Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 4 13:04:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 05:04:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] An excercise in plane design Hi guys1.doc [1/7] In-Reply-To: <000901c1f335$f4055150$5824fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: Hi Ray, Gary suggested sending the posts to him, and he could put them on the web site. No need to apologize. We still would like to see what you have. I am taking off for a week on a little holiday, so you and the rest won't hear from me for a few days. Talk to y'all soon. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of ray.cossey1 Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 11:35 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] An excercise in plane design Hi guys1.doc [1/7] Gordy The last message I sent was, as you surmised, drawings which, because of the overall size, my processor broke down into seven parts. The first of these must have comprised the main text and the rest carried the attachment, which showed the drawings. By killing off the other six files the drawings within the attachment, were binned as it were. You are probably right that there is an incompatibility somewhere and we will have to write it off and just stick to plain text in future. The problem is that we are all using possibly different processing systems, although the one I used to create the drawings (Word for Windows XP) is fairly common, but the most recently introduced, which may explain the difficulty it presents to some recipients. Sorry to cause such mayhem! Best wishes Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 5 03:34:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:34:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] re: photos Message-ID: <6f.27030786.2a05f41b@aol.com> Photos taken were mostly of people of the crews, those of the 8 Ball officer's nissen hut, some in formation and of course points of interest on leave in London, Manchester, Blackpool and some nice shots of Gibraltar. I'm working on use of the scanner and then transferring scanned images to Email, should really get them to the association for the archives. Some I wiill have to dig out the negatives, some one at the 359th lifted a few I thought I had prints of and I know they didn't turn to dust. I'll work on the project. Glen Swensen in Grand rapids MN has alot of good ones in his album. LeRoy C. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 5 04:39:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chris Bryant) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 20:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction and question Message-ID: <20020505033935.49758.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> Hello..... I'm a long time subscriber to several heavy bomber related lists but have just started with this one.....mainly because I just realized the 303rd had a list.Guess i should have checked the web site a little closer. I'm interested particularly in an incident that may have involved the 303rd;In Martin Caidin's book he mentions a mission on which the lead bombardier let his bombs go early by accident .I think it may have been 28 June 1943.I'm particularly curious as to whether the bombardier involved survived the war.I'll explain more about the incident in a later message but for now :is anyone familiar with this incident? thanks, Chris Bryant __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 6 03:26:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tonya Larson) Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:26:44 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Arthur M. Padmore Message-ID: <000801c1f4a5$77bc60e0$5f26fe0c@attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1F473.2C50E540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, My name is Tonya Larson and I am looking for any information on my = grandfather, Arthur M. Padmore. He was an airplane mechanic and is = listed on your website. Unfortunately my grandpa passed away October = 10, 1990. I am looking for any of his comrades, etc. that might have = pictures or stories about him. Thank you, Tonya ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1F473.2C50E540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
My name is Tonya Larson and I am looking for any = information=20 on my grandfather, Arthur M. Padmore.  He was an airplane mechanic = and is=20 listed on your website.  Unfortunately my grandpa passed away = October 10,=20 1990.  I am looking for any of his comrades, etc. that might have = pictures=20 or stories about him.
 
Thank you,
 
Tonya
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1F473.2C50E540-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 6 20:52:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:52:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ARTHUR M. PADMORE Message-ID: <000b01c1f537$82537b00$57bb9ace@mjpmtman> From: "Tonya Larson" Subject: [303rd-Talk] Arthur M. Padmore Hello, My name is Tonya Larson and I am looking for any information on my = grandfather, Arthur M. Padmore. He was an airplane mechanic and is = listed on your website. Thank you, Tonya +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Tonya - I talked with Pete Zimba in '95. I hear that he is now blind but can not confirm it. He was a tech Supply Sgt in the 427th BS [the same as your grandfather]. I was a Supply Sgt in the Air Corps Supply main office. This was our common demoninator. It is possible that he might have known him or knows someone who did. His address is Peter P. Zimba, 700 Jefferson Ave., Cherry Hill, NJ - 08002-3721----------TEL - 856-429-3908--- This information was obtained from the 2001 membership directory. MARICE J. PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 6 20:53:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (A. Boersma) Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:53:59 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <001601c1f537$c4939fe0$e957e5d5@Standard> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1F548.870840C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 november 1944 I saw the crew of B-17 Eight Ball bail out at a = height of some 3000 ft shortly before the aircraft crashed.Some months = ago I came in contact with the bombardier of that plane,mr. Nino = Guiciardi. I provided him with a scrap of a navigators map originating from his = plane.In return he sent me the CD ROM with the Molesworth Story which = learned me an enormous lot about the 303 BG. I thougt it a good thing to join the Talk site to learn even more. Kind regards A. Boersma ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1F548.870840C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2 november 1944 I saw the crew of = B-17 Eight=20 Ball bail out at a height of some 3000 ft shortly before the aircraft=20 crashed.Some months ago I came in contact with the bombardier of that = plane,mr.=20 Nino Guiciardi.
I provided him with a scrap of a = navigators map=20 originating from his plane.In return he sent me the CD ROM with the = Molesworth=20 Story which learned me an enormous lot about the 303 BG.
I thougt it a good thing to = join the Talk site=20 to learn even more.
Kind regards
A. Boersma
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1F548.870840C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 7 15:38:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:38:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question Message-ID: Hi list! I have a hypothetical question to toss your way. Let's say that the B-29 was available for combat in August of 1942. So instead of the B-17 being used in the ETO, the 29 was used. Would the B-29 have been more or less successful as a bomber? I admittedly don't know much about the 29, but I wonder about it's ability to sustain battle damage especially with a pressurized cabin. And also, did it not have less defensive firepower, but a higher ceiling? Anyway just curious what your thoughts are on this. BTW, the B-17 is my FAVORITE plane of WWII, so I am not trying to find data to diminish it's reputation. I just find it an interesting question. Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 7 21:23:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:23:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question References: Message-ID: <3CD837C0.826A3584@attglobal.net> Tooley ... You cannot diminish the name nor reputation of an aircraft which had so much to do with winning WW#2 (the one we won) in Europe. So. don't fret it. As for the B29's pressurization causing problems, I cannot believe the B29 would have been as good as the B17 against the Luftwaffe. The B29s would be going down everywhere due to pressurization problems, unless there was some sort of redundancy or "fix" about which I do not know ... with the B29. Cheers! "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list! > I have a hypothetical question to toss your way. Let's say that the B-29 > was available for combat in August of 1942. So instead of the B-17 being > used in the ETO, the 29 was used. Would the B-29 have been more or less > successful as a bomber? I admittedly don't know much about the 29, but I > wonder about it's ability to sustain battle damage especially with a > pressurized cabin. And also, did it not have less defensive firepower, but > a higher ceiling? > > Anyway just curious what your thoughts are on this. BTW, the B-17 is my > FAVORITE plane of WWII, so I am not trying to find data to diminish it's > reputation. I just find it an interesting question. > > Thanks! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 03:31:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 22:31:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question Message-ID: <14c.d93cc86.2a09e806@aol.com> Dave, I never flew a B29 in combat, so this is just an opinion. I flew 35 missions in B17s. We came back with holes in the bird as I remember 32 times. I think this would have caused cabin pressure problems in a B-29. B29s seemed to have engine problems. We wouldn't have needed their long range. I don't know how their remote guns would have worked against the constant fighter attacks. I never once aborted. I think we were in the right bird. Our mechanics knew how to keep them flying. They shot down more enemy aircraft during the war than any other aircraft. They were hard to beat. The enemy learned that. I think we would have learned that too if we had switched over to B29s. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 03:59:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 02:59:30 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question Message-ID: <20020508025930.SSST7485.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Dave, I tend to agree with others who feel the B-17 was the right aircraft for the European Theater of Operation. Having said that, I must admit the crew comfort of a fully pressurized fusilage is something to consider along with a maximum speed of 357 mph, a ceiling of 31,856 ft., range of 3250 miles, added armament of a 20mm cannon in the tail and 12 .50 cal. machine guns and a 20,000 lb pay load are all factors to be considered. We will never know how the B-29 would have performed but I have a feeling that had it been the aircraft of choice, we would have made it work.....Bill Runnels > Hi list! > I have a hypothetical question to toss your way. Let's say that the B-29 > was available for combat in August of 1942. So instead of the B-17 being > used in the ETO, the 29 was used. Would the B-29 have been more or less > successful as a bomber? I admittedly don't know much about the 29, but I > wonder about it's ability to sustain battle damage especially with a > pressurized cabin. And also, did it not have less defensive firepower, but > a higher ceiling? > > Anyway just curious what your thoughts are on this. BTW, the B-17 is my > FAVORITE plane of WWII, so I am not trying to find data to diminish it's > reputation. I just find it an interesting question. > > Thanks! > Dave > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 07:27:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 23:27:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question References: <20020508025930.SSST7485.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3CD8C557.783FB1B2@attglobal.net> Once again, I hear the concern for crew comfort. I wonder why? We were not there for comfort, but it sure seems to be the rage of concern of today's personnel .. Cheers! b.runnels@att.net wrote: > Dave, I tend to agree with others who feel the B-17 was > the right aircraft for the European Theater of > Operation. Having said that, I must admit the crew > comfort of a fully pressurized fusilage is something to > consider along with a maximum speed of 357 mph, a > ceiling of 31,856 ft., range of 3250 miles, added > armament of a 20mm cannon in the tail and 12 .50 cal. > machine guns and a 20,000 lb pay load are all factors > to be considered. We will never know how the B-29 would > have performed but I have a feeling that had it been the > aircraft of choice, we would have made it work.....Bill > Runnels > > Hi list! > > I have a hypothetical question to toss your way. Let's say that the B-29 > > was available for combat in August of 1942. So instead of the B-17 being > > used in the ETO, the 29 was used. Would the B-29 have been more or less > > successful as a bomber? I admittedly don't know much about the 29, but I > > wonder about it's ability to sustain battle damage especially with a > > pressurized cabin. And also, did it not have less defensive firepower, but > > a higher ceiling? > > > > Anyway just curious what your thoughts are on this. BTW, the B-17 is my > > FAVORITE plane of WWII, so I am not trying to find data to diminish it's > > reputation. I just find it an interesting question. > > > > Thanks! > > Dave > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 14:35:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 08:35:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question Message-ID: After a few responses, I have a follow-up question. A B-29's ceiling was a tad over 30K feet. Did the Germans have fighters and flak that could reach that height? If the answer is no, then the limitations discussed so far concerning the pressurized cabin would be mitigated. Therefore, I would think that the 29 would have been a more effective weapon. If the answer is yes, then the pressurized cabin is a major factor for the reasons already given. Your thoughts? BTW, I received my Hells Angels newsletter yesterday. What a great read!! My thanks to all who put it together. Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 15:52:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:52:25 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question Message-ID: <20020508145226.XCOE24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, I see nothing wrong in added crew comfort if you can still do the job. The discomfort associated with wearing the oxygen mask for a lengthy period of time could all but be eliminated in the B-29. I am sure that emergency procedures called for wearing the mask under certain circumstances even in the B-29 but for shorter periods of time. As a bombardier the 20,000 lb pay load of the B-29 compared to the 6,000 lb of the B-17 is a plus. The added tonnage on a 1,500 bomber mission is impressive.....Bill Runnels > Once again, I hear the concern for crew comfort. I wonder why? We were not there > for comfort, but it sure seems to be the rage of concern of today's personnel .. > > Cheers! > > b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > > Dave, I tend to agree with others who feel the B-17 was > > the right aircraft for the European Theater of > > Operation. Having said that, I must admit the crew > > comfort of a fully pressurized fusilage is something to > > consider along with a maximum speed of 357 mph, a > > ceiling of 31,856 ft., range of 3250 miles, added > > armament of a 20mm cannon in the tail and 12 .50 cal. > > machine guns and a 20,000 lb pay load are all factors > > to be considered. We will never know how the B-29 would > > have performed but I have a feeling that had it been the > > aircraft of choice, we would have made it work.....Bill > > Runnels > > > Hi list! > > > I have a hypothetical question to toss your way. Let's say that the B-29 > > > was available for combat in August of 1942. So instead of the B-17 being > > > used in the ETO, the 29 was used. Would the B-29 have been more or less > > > successful as a bomber? I admittedly don't know much about the 29, but I > > > wonder about it's ability to sustain battle damage especially with a > > > pressurized cabin. And also, did it not have less defensive firepower, but > > > a higher ceiling? > > > > > > Anyway just curious what your thoughts are on this. BTW, the B-17 is my > > > FAVORITE plane of WWII, so I am not trying to find data to diminish it's > > > reputation. I just find it an interesting question. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Dave > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 18:19:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:19:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question In-Reply-To: <20020508145226.XCOE24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > Bill, I see nothing wrong in added crew comfort if you > can still do the job. The discomfort associated with > wearing the oxygen mask for a lengthy period of time > could all but be eliminated in the B-29. Plus it seems obvious that you could do your job better with the "comfort" features. The extreme cold, low pressure and lack of oxygen must have made even the easiest tasks quite difficult. I would think that anything that would have minimized those discomforts would have made it much easier for you to do your job better. However, I can't imagine the pressurized cabin environment lasting very long with all the flak and ea, and the added weight would have degraded the load/range/ceiling/armament, so I guess it was a tradeoff. If I'm not mistaken, one of the early versions of the B-17 was supposed to have a pressurized/heated cabin, but that was apparently abandoned. There is a drawing of such a model in one of the manuals. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 18:42:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:42:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question References: Message-ID: <3CD96372.27D2778E@attglobal.net> Tooley ... The answer is "yes" and "yes" .... There WAS Flak and fighters reaching well over 30,000 feet. One mission ... when a\our formation was completely messed up, I found myself at 33,000 feet to get above the haze cloud layers ... and was attacked by fighters FROM ABOVE. The B29 would not have been a good bomber for us in the 8th in WW#2 (the one we won). Every weapon has its good and bad points and theatres of action. We once had a B29 come over to the ETO as a demonstrator and for us to "look at" but I believe those in power knew better than to use it in the ETO ... Cheers! "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > After a few responses, I have a follow-up question. A B-29's ceiling was a > tad over 30K feet. Did the Germans have fighters and flak that could reach > that height? If the answer is no, then the limitations discussed so far > concerning the pressurized cabin would be mitigated. Therefore, I would > think that the 29 would have been a more effective weapon. If the answer is > yes, then the pressurized cabin is a major factor for the reasons already > given. > > Your thoughts? > > BTW, I received my Hells Angels newsletter yesterday. What a great read!! > My thanks to all who put it together. > > Thanks! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 18:47:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:47:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question References: Message-ID: <3CD9649A.DBADA373@attglobal.net> BJ ... You are correct in that there was a supposed version of the B17 to be pressurized .... the C54 was also to be a pressurized airliner but exigencies demanded that such design be abandoned since they needed it NOW. So when the DC6 came along, pressurized, it was merely the way the original DC4 (C54) was supposed to have been and the engines designed for it negated the need for that tail post you see used in the C54 when being loaded. The CG was such on the pressurized version, as to not need such tail post. Many things are discarded due to needs of the time. The B17 was the best plane for the job as done in the ETO. Cheers! Bill Jones wrote: > > Bill, I see nothing wrong in added crew comfort if you > > can still do the job. The discomfort associated with > > wearing the oxygen mask for a lengthy period of time > > could all but be eliminated in the B-29. > > Plus it seems obvious that you could do your job better with the > "comfort" features. The extreme cold, low pressure and lack of > oxygen must have made even the easiest tasks quite difficult. I > would think that anything that would have minimized those > discomforts would have made it much easier for you to do your job > better. > However, I can't imagine the pressurized cabin environment > lasting very long with all the flak and ea, and the added weight > would have degraded the load/range/ceiling/armament, so I guess it > was a tradeoff. If I'm not mistaken, one of the early versions of the > B-17 was supposed to have a pressurized/heated cabin, but that > was apparently abandoned. There is a drawing of such a model in > one of the manuals. > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 8 20:39:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:39:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-29 vs B-17 Message-ID: I have a number of pilots who flew both the B-17 & B-29 in a combat environment. Keep in mind that the B-29 could have been deployed to the ETO had the USAAF leadership been prone so. This being said the pilots I have spoken with have kicked around this debate and it all comes back to the B-17 was far better suited to take the missions/damage that the ETO was handing out in 1944-45. Make no mistake Hap Arnold must have had this debate more than one. On a side note the B-29 did show up in England late in the war on its way to another theater.... No doubt a Psychological Operation as it was leaked out to the Germans. Greg Pierce 8th AFHS - WA Chapter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 03:06:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:06:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe Message-ID: Howdy Y'all First off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won. And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion. Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one way or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............ Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures. They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high altitude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two cents..................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 03:11:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:11:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29s over Europe Message-ID: <1bb.9d1b5f.2a0b34e8@aol.com> Yes the Germans had fighters that went over 30,000 feet. It is our good fortune that Hitler was such an idiot. He forbid mass production of the ME-262 jet fighter for defense, until we were routinely flying thousand plane raids. It was too late by then. Had it not been for Hitler, those jets would have been mass produced in huge numbers, and in 1943.......................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 03:45:00 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:45:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe Message-ID:

And, as you all know, the B-29 was designed very early on, for the mission of attacking Nazi Germany. This was before the Battle of Britain, which if lost meant that we would be flying bombing missions from a hell of a lot further away than England.

Brian S. McGuire

>From: Fordlauer@aol.com
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe
>Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:06:38 EDT
>
>Howdy Y'all
>
>First off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won.
>And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their
>duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion.
>Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in
>that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that
>theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to
>come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can
>stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one
>way or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............
>
>Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes
>were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on
>oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have
>been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many
>bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures.
>They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war
>over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely
>knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high
>altitude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if
>he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no
>doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either
>the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses
>would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two
>cents..................Ford J. Lauer III
>


Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 03:52:49 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:52:49 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe Message-ID: <20020509025250.KGXG24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Thanks for your input. To De-pressurize when in combat would solve the problem. Early in the ETO , the pressurization could not have been used anyway as the missions were short and enemy aircraft picked up the bombers over the channel. However, it would have been a different story in late 1944 and 1945. The missions were much longer and the enemy aircraft did not hit until later in the mission, so the pressurization would have been of value. I agree, the added bomb load could have made a difference.....Bill Runnels, bombardier > or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............ > > Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes > were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on > oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have > been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many > bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures. > They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war > over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely > knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high > altHoFirwdy Y'all > > st off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won. > And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their > duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion. > Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in > that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that > theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to > come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can > stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one > way itude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if > he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no > doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either > the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses > would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two > cents..................Ford J. Lauer III > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 05:21:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:21:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] William Morris Jones, Navigator Message-ID: <13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a@wmconnect.com> --part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greeting to you all! My name is Linda (Jones) Dominque and I am the daughter of William M. Jones, Navigator on Henn's Revenge. I have been reading for about 3 hours all the web sites about the 303rd and Henn's Revenge!!!!!!! I am faaaaaaascinated and just thrilled it is all there for our families to read and treasure!! Dad has recently given me all the family photos and scrapbooks and I am going to try to write a tribute book about his life for our descendants. I havn't told Dad this yet, so MUM'S the word!! Hoping to have it finished by his birthday 2003. If any of you have anything to contribute, please email me back. May God bless you each and everyone for your courage and service to our country!! Sincerely yours, Linda (JONES) Dominque --part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greeting to you all!  

My name is Linda (Jones) Dominque and I am the daughter of William M. Jones, Navigator on Henn's Revenge.

I have been reading for about 3 hours all the web sites about the 303rd and Henn's Revenge!!!!!!!

I am faaaaaaascinated and just thrilled it is all there for our families to read and treasure!!  Dad has recently given me all the family photos and scrapbooks and I am going to try to write a tribute book about his life for our descendants.

I havn't told Dad this yet, so MUM'S the word!!  Hoping to have it finished by his birthday 2003.


If any of you have anything to contribute, please email me back.

May God bless you each and everyone for your courage and service to our country!!

Sincerely yours,
Linda (JONES) Dominque

--part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 08:46:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:46:08 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation? Message-ID: <001a01c1f72d$d8096d50$22e4fc3e@RAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in their book "B-17 Fortress/B-29 = Superfortress At War", on page 161, the experience of B-17 pilot, Lt. = James W. Johnson, is related, thus: "Our squadron had reached the vicinity of the German coast, when we = noticed a lone B-17 off to one side, some distance away. As we = progressed it began to edge-in towards us and at first we assumed it was = a straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, it seemed = to have an odd colour. Our squadron leader tried to call up the stranger = over the radio; we could hear him call, but he got no response. Our = leader then became very suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to = have our gunners bear onto this stranger. So ever gunner in our outfit = who could, lined up on him. The pilot, whoever he was, must have = understood the message, because almost immediately he started to pull = away from us and kept going. From his behaviour we believe this Fort was = enemy-operated". Now we know, from the captured wartime records of the Luftwaffe, that it = had at least three captured B-17's at its disposal and that it used = these on 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me wondering if = any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident related by Lt James = W. Johnson, or were their suspicions ever aroused in a similar way, from = seeing 'strangers' around their formations.=20 I do understand that the odd lone B-17, having become separated from its = own group's formation, would tag along with some other formation, by way = of getting the protection afforded by that formation, but did any one in = the 303rd ever witness, or hear reports, similar to that described by = Johnson? Best wishes to all Ray Cossey England ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All
 
Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in = their book=20 "B-17 Fortress/B-29 Superfortress At War", on page 161,  the = experience of=20 B-17 pilot, Lt. James W. Johnson, is related, thus:
 
"Our squadron had reached the vicinity = of the=20 German coast, when we noticed a lone B-17 off to one side, some distance = away.=20 As we progressed it began to edge-in towards us and at first we assumed = it was a=20 straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, it seemed to = have an=20 odd colour. Our squadron leader tried to call up the stranger over the = radio; we=20 could hear him call, but he got no response. Our leader then became very = suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to have our gunners bear = onto this=20 stranger. So ever gunner in our outfit who could, lined up on him. The = pilot,=20 whoever he was, must have understood the message, because almost = immediately=20 he started to pull away from us and kept going. From his behaviour = we=20 believe this Fort was enemy-operated".
 
Now we know, from the captured = wartime records=20 of the Luftwaffe, that it had at least three captured B-17's at its = disposal and=20 that it used these on 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me = wondering=20 if any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident related by Lt = James W.=20 Johnson, or were their suspicions ever aroused in a similar way, from = seeing=20 'strangers' around their formations.
 
I do understand that the odd lone B-17, = having=20 become separated from its own group's formation, would tag along with = some other=20 formation, by way of getting the protection afforded by=20 that formation, but did any one in the 303rd ever witness, or hear = reports,=20 similar to that described by Johnson?
 
Best wishes to all
 
 
Ray Cossey
England
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 18:13:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:13:52 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction In-Reply-To: <001601c1f537$c4939fe0$e957e5d5@Standard> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1F742.38105060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome aboard. I am sure I speak for the others when I say that you are very welcome here. I hope we can all learn from each other. I am the son of a veteran, who was a tailgunner. My father, Don Alton, was also forced to bale out after being shot down. Can you tell us more of your experience that day, and your experience at the crash site? Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of A. Boersma Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 12:54 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction On 2 november 1944 I saw the crew of B-17 Eight Ball bail out at a height of some 3000 ft shortly before the aircraft crashed.Some months ago I came in contact with the bombardier of that plane,mr. Nino Guiciardi. I provided him with a scrap of a navigators map originating from his plane.In return he sent me the CD ROM with the Molesworth Story which learned me an enormous lot about the 303 BG. I thougt it a good thing to join the Talk site to learn even more. Kind regards A. Boersma ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1F742.38105060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Welcome aboard.

I am sure I speak for the others when I say that you are very = welcome here.

I hope we can all learn from each = other.

I am the son of a veteran, who was a tailgunner. My father, Don = Alton, was also forced to bale out after being shot = down.

Can you tell us more of your experience that day, and your = experience at the crash site?

 

Gordy.

 

Gordon L. = Alton

Box 855

Salt Spring Island, BC, = Can.

V8K2W3

gunnerson@telus.net

"Our freedom is not free. = Please remember those

who gave so much to keep it for = the rest of us."

********************************= *****

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15> 

-----Original Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of A. Boersma
Sent: Monday, May 06, = 2002 12:54 PM
To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Introduction

 

On 2 november 1944 I saw the crew of B-17 Eight Ball bail out at a height of = some 3000 ft shortly before the aircraft crashed.Some months ago I came in = contact with the bombardier of that plane,mr. Nino Guiciardi.<= /p>

I provided him with a scrap of a navigators map originating from his = plane.In return he sent me the CD ROM with the Molesworth Story which learned me = an enormous lot about the 303 BG.<= /p>

I thougt it a good thing to join the Talk site to learn even = more.<= /p>

Kind regards

A. Boersma

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1F742.38105060-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 18:41:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:41:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29s over Europe References: <1bb.9d1b5f.2a0b34e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CDAB4BF.38E41CD6@attglobal.net> Ford ... You are quite correct on the Me262 and Hitler's mania for making it a fighter-bomber against the better judgement of others, mainly Gen. Galland. It was my pleasure to become good friends with "Dolfo" Galland during the ten years I was a Lufthansa Airline Captain in the post war era. "Dolfo" told me that story several times. But, being Dolfo, he also admitted that it would only have made the war last another 6 months MAYBE. Dolfo told me he knew the war was over long before we won it. Galland was a gentleman. A nice person to know and very knowledgeable. As a story he once told me, when we were lunching somewhere....he said, "Kapitan, if it was not for the RAF and the US 8th AF, you could never have mounted the D-Day operation. Auf die andere zeite, if your high command had concentrated solely on fuel and the delivery thereof, you would not have HAD to mount a D-Day operation!" I felt that was quite a statement. Cheers! Fordlauer@aol.com wrote: > Yes the Germans had fighters that went over 30,000 feet. It is our good > fortune that Hitler was such an idiot. He forbid mass production of the > ME-262 jet fighter for defense, until we were routinely flying thousand plane > raids. It was too late by then. Had it not been for Hitler, those jets would > have been mass produced in huge numbers, and in > 1943.......................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 19:14:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:14:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation? References: <001a01c1f72d$d8096d50$22e4fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3CDABC8E.CD238889@attglobal.net> --------------9DED88E87EBF2538807FC2EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray and Theresa, MBE ... You brought up an item I have long remembered. My crew was loathe to mention it in the days and weeks after the incident, but we spoke of it many times due to my words over the intercom thusly ... "Fellows, the B17 flying alongside us is acting very strangely. I want you each, very slowly, to train you guns on that B17 and stay that way until you hear further from me!" I did not receive ANY questions from the crew. I assume they did as requested, but when back over England, my Ball Turret Gunner asked me WHY I had them train their guns on one of our own planes. I then told him this story ... We were alone, coming home from a mission. Do not recall which one, but it was early in our first tour. As we neared the Channel, this B17 came alongside. I figured he also was a straggler and looking for comfort and safety on the way home. I waved once at the pilot and the wave back seemed sort of strange. What, I do not know. Just strange. (Sort of like you can tell a European in a crowd merely by the way he holds his cigarette). In any event this B17 stayed with us almost to the edge of the Coast of Occupied Europe and then ever so slowly, drifted back. Then he turned 180 degrees and we never saw him again. When our crew discussed it, I told them I felt that it MUST have been a B17 flown by Germans, but could NOT give a reason for my thinking such. Since he did turn back when he did, I believe my assumption was correct. I do know that such WAS done by the Luftwaffe and that due to our FOF equipment, may have been attempting to get into England along with us. At one time this was done and the Luftwaffe played havoc with a B24 outfit during their landing after a mission. Several had been shot down in the traffic pattern (I was told). So there you have it, Ray. I spoke to my many friends during my ten year stint with Lufthansa and they all supported my statement, that, YES, they DID have a few B17s and YES, they DID tag along on some of our formations...but never seemed to be able to tell me WHY! Tschuess! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Hi All Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in their book > "B-17 Fortress/B-29 Superfortress At War", on page 161, > the experience of B-17 pilot, Lt. James W. Johnson, is > related, thus: "Our squadron had reached the vicinity of > the German coast, when we noticed a lone B-17 off to one > side, some distance away. As we progressed it began to > edge-in towards us and at first we assumed it was a > straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, > it seemed to have an odd colour. Our squadron leader tried > to call up the stranger over the radio; we could hear him > call, but he got no response. Our leader then became very > suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to have our > gunners bear onto this stranger. So ever gunner in our > outfit who could, lined up on him. The pilot, whoever he > was, must have understood the message, because almost > immediately he started to pull away from us and kept > going. From his behaviour we believe this Fort was > enemy-operated". Now we know, from the captured wartime > records of the Luftwaffe, that it had at least three > captured B-17's at its disposal and that it used these on > 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me wondering > if any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident > related by Lt James W. Johnson, or were their suspicions > ever aroused in a similar way, from seeing 'strangers' > around their formations. I do understand that the odd lone > B-17, having become separated from its own group's > formation, would tag along with some other formation, by > way of getting the protection afforded by that formation, > but did any one in the 303rd ever witness, or hear > reports, similar to that described by Johnson? Best wishes > to all Ray CosseyEngland --------------9DED88E87EBF2538807FC2EB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray and Theresa, MBE ...

You brought up an item I have long remembered. My crew was loathe to mention it in the days and weeks after the incident, but we spoke of it many times due to my words over the intercom thusly ... "Fellows, the B17 flying alongside us is acting very strangely. I want you each, very slowly, to train you guns on that B17 and stay that way until you hear further from me!"

I did not receive ANY questions from the crew. I assume they did as requested, but when back over England, my Ball Turret Gunner asked me WHY I had them train their guns on one of our own planes. I then told him this story ...

We were alone, coming home from a mission. Do not recall which one, but it was early in our first tour. As we neared the Channel, this B17 came alongside. I figured he also was a straggler and looking for comfort and safety on the way home.  I waved once at the pilot and the wave back seemed sort of strange. What, I do not know. Just strange. (Sort of like you can tell a European in a crowd merely by the way he holds his cigarette). In any event this B17 stayed with us almost to the edge of the Coast of Occupied Europe and then ever so slowly, drifted back. Then he turned 180 degrees and we never saw him again.

When our crew discussed it, I told them I felt that it MUST have been a B17 flown by Germans, but could NOT give a reason for my thinking such. Since he did turn back when he did, I believe my assumption was correct.  I do know that such WAS done by the Luftwaffe and that due to our FOF equipment, may have been attempting to get into England along with us. At one time this was done and the Luftwaffe played havoc with a B24 outfit during their landing after a mission. Several had been shot down in the traffic pattern (I was told).

So there you have it, Ray. I spoke to my many friends during my ten year stint with Lufthansa and they all supported my statement, that, YES, they DID have a few B17s and YES, they DID tag along on some of our formations...but never seemed to be able to tell me WHY!

Tschuess!

WCH

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

Hi All Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in their book "B-17 Fortress/B-29 Superfortress At War", on page 161,  the experience of B-17 pilot, Lt. James W. Johnson, is related, thus: "Our squadron had reached the vicinity of the German coast, when we noticed a lone B-17 off to one side, some distance away. As we progressed it began to edge-in towards us and at first we assumed it was a straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, it seemed to have an odd colour. Our squadron leader tried to call up the stranger over the radio; we could hear him call, but he got no response. Our leader then became very suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to have our gunners bear onto this stranger. So ever gunner in our outfit who could, lined up on him. The pilot, whoever he was, must have understood the message, because almost immediately he started to pull away from us and kept going. From his behaviour we believe this Fort was enemy-operated". Now we know, from the captured wartime records of the Luftwaffe, that it had at least three captured B-17's at its disposal and that it used these on 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me wondering if any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident related by Lt James W. Johnson, or were their suspicions ever aroused in a similar way, from seeing 'strangers' around their formations. I do understand that the odd lone B-17, having become separated from its own group's formation, would tag along with some other formation, by way of getting the protection afforded by that formation, but did any one in the 303rd ever witness, or hear reports, similar to that described by Johnson? Best wishes to all  Ray CosseyEngland
--------------9DED88E87EBF2538807FC2EB-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 20:58:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 20:58:20 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation? References: <001a01c1f72d$d8096d50$22e4fc3e@RAY> <3CDABC8E.CD238889@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <006901c1f794$ccd69540$21e8fc3e@RAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C1F79C.40261140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bill Heller for your riveting account of your own experience and = which is almost identical to that related by fellow B-17 pilot, Lt James = W Johnson. When I raised this question, to be honest, I thought it = extremely unlikely that a 303rder would have had a similar experience, = but how wrong I was. The B-24 incident you refer to, Bill, took place only a mile from where = I'm sitting, composing this e-mail. Station 145 was the Rackheath home = to planes from the 467th BG and on the evening of April 22, 1944, at = around 9.30pm they were returning to their home base, somewhat late. = Making their final approach, over Rackheath, they were 'set upon' by an = enemy plane. This aircraft (at the time some claim it to have been an = Me410) had, somehow, got amongst the B-24s and the resulting mayhem = caused a number of the B-24s to crash over the Rackheath base and the = surrounding area.=20 This incident has gone down in local folk-lore and for decades the = question has been asked, ' how could the B-24 aircrews have been so = inattentive as to let 'gerry' get amongst them?' With yours and Lt = Johnson's experiences, Bill, perhaps it wasn't a German fighter at all. = Might it have been something else? Could some less obvious intruder have = attached itself to the returning formation? If the Germans had captured = B-17s, why not a few B-24s as well? I guess we'll never know the truth and can only speculate.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C1F79C.40261140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Bill Heller for your riveting = account of=20 your own experience and which is almost identical to that related by = fellow B-17=20 pilot, Lt James W Johnson.  When = I raised=20 this question, to be honest, I thought it extremely unlikely that a = 303rder=20 would have had a similar experience, but how wrong I was.
 
The B-24 incident you refer to, Bill, = took place=20 only a mile from where I'm sitting, composing this e-mail. Station 145 = was the=20 Rackheath home to planes from the 467th BG and on the evening of April = 22, 1944,=20 at around 9.30pm they were returning to their home = base, somewhat=20 late. Making their final approach, over Rackheath, they were 'set upon' = by an=20 enemy plane. This aircraft (at the time some claim it to have been an=20 Me410) had, somehow, got amongst the B-24s and the resulting mayhem = caused=20 a number of the B-24s to crash over the Rackheath base and the = surrounding area.=20
 
This incident has gone down in local = folk-lore and=20 for decades the question has been asked, ' how could the B-24 = aircrews have=20 been so inattentive as to let 'gerry' get amongst them?' With yours and = Lt=20 Johnson's experiences, Bill, perhaps it wasn't a German fighter at = all.=20 Might it have been something else? Could some less obvious = intruder have=20 attached itself to the returning formation? If the Germans had captured = B-17s,=20 why not a few B-24s as well?
 
I guess we'll never know the truth and = can only=20 speculate. 
------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C1F79C.40261140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 21:05:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 16:05:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #590 - 10 msgs References: <20020509160441.1DDE353675@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001801c1f794$d3dde640$0000a398@SHANK> To Ray Cossey re: strange B-17s seen. At 11:16am on July 20, 1944 (I have our Navigator's log) a B-17 with the markings Triangle T Squadron letters GB was observed by me and others flying off to the right of our formation as we were en route to Dessau. I believe a call was put in for fighter intervention but never found out what eventually happened. I do not believe that the 8th had a group with the triangle T designation. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 12:04 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #590 - 10 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Hypothetical question (Bill Jones) > 2. Re: Hypothetical question (William Heller) > 3. Re: Hypothetical question (William Heller) > 4. RE: B-29 vs B-17 (Pierce, Gregory S) > 5. Re: B-29 in Europe (Fordlauer@aol.com) > 6. B-29s over Europe (Fordlauer@aol.com) > 7. Re: Re: B-29 in Europe (Brian McGuire) > 8. Re: Re: B-29 in Europe (b.runnels@att.net) > 9. William Morris Jones, Navigator (Jonestreeclimber@wmconnect.com) > 10. The foe in our formation? (ray.cossey1) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:19:28 -0400 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > Bill, I see nothing wrong in added crew comfort if you > > can still do the job. The discomfort associated with > > wearing the oxygen mask for a lengthy period of time > > could all but be eliminated in the B-29. > > Plus it seems obvious that you could do your job better with the > "comfort" features. The extreme cold, low pressure and lack of > oxygen must have made even the easiest tasks quite difficult. I > would think that anything that would have minimized those > discomforts would have made it much easier for you to do your job > better. > However, I can't imagine the pressurized cabin environment > lasting very long with all the flak and ea, and the added weight > would have degraded the load/range/ceiling/armament, so I guess it > was a tradeoff. If I'm not mistaken, one of the early versions of the > B-17 was supposed to have a pressurized/heated cabin, but that > was apparently abandoned. There is a drawing of such a model in > one of the manuals. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:42:10 -0700 > From: William Heller > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Tooley ... > > The answer is "yes" and "yes" .... There WAS Flak and fighters reaching well > over 30,000 feet. One mission ... when a\our formation was completely messed > up, I found myself at 33,000 feet to get above the haze cloud layers ... and > was attacked by fighters FROM ABOVE. > > The B29 would not have been a good bomber for us in the 8th in WW#2 (the one we > won). > > Every weapon has its good and bad points and theatres of action. We once had a > B29 come over to the ETO as a demonstrator and for us to "look at" but I > believe those in power knew better than to use it in the ETO ... > > Cheers! > > "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > After a few responses, I have a follow-up question. A B-29's ceiling was a > > tad over 30K feet. Did the Germans have fighters and flak that could reach > > that height? If the answer is no, then the limitations discussed so far > > concerning the pressurized cabin would be mitigated. Therefore, I would > > think that the 29 would have been a more effective weapon. If the answer is > > yes, then the pressurized cabin is a major factor for the reasons already > > given. > > > > Your thoughts? > > > > BTW, I received my Hells Angels newsletter yesterday. What a great read!! > > My thanks to all who put it together. > > > > Thanks! > > Dave > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:47:07 -0700 > From: William Heller > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hypothetical question > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > BJ ... > > You are correct in that there was a supposed version of the B17 to be > pressurized .... the C54 was also to be a pressurized airliner but > exigencies demanded that such design be abandoned since they needed it > NOW. So when the DC6 came along, pressurized, it was merely the way the > original DC4 (C54) was supposed to have been and the engines designed for > it negated the need for that tail post you see used in the C54 when being > loaded. The CG was such on the pressurized version, as to not need such > tail post. > > Many things are discarded due to needs of the time. The B17 was the best > plane for the job as done in the ETO. > > Cheers! > > > Bill Jones wrote: > > > > Bill, I see nothing wrong in added crew comfort if you > > > can still do the job. The discomfort associated with > > > wearing the oxygen mask for a lengthy period of time > > > could all but be eliminated in the B-29. > > > > Plus it seems obvious that you could do your job better with the > > "comfort" features. The extreme cold, low pressure and lack of > > oxygen must have made even the easiest tasks quite difficult. I > > would think that anything that would have minimized those > > discomforts would have made it much easier for you to do your job > > better. > > However, I can't imagine the pressurized cabin environment > > lasting very long with all the flak and ea, and the added weight > > would have degraded the load/range/ceiling/armament, so I guess it > > was a tradeoff. If I'm not mistaken, one of the early versions of the > > B-17 was supposed to have a pressurized/heated cabin, but that > > was apparently abandoned. There is a drawing of such a model in > > one of the manuals. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "Pierce, Gregory S" > To: "'303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:39:47 -0700 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-29 vs B-17 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I have a number of pilots who flew both the B-17 & B-29 in a combat > environment. Keep in mind that the B-29 could have been deployed to > the ETO had the USAAF leadership been prone so. This being said the > pilots I have spoken with have kicked around this debate and it all > comes back to the B-17 was far better suited to take the missions/damage > that the ETO was handing out in 1944-45. Make no mistake Hap Arnold > must have had this debate more than one. On a side note the B-29 did > show up in England late in the war on its way to another theater.... > No doubt a Psychological Operation as it was leaked out to the Germans. > > Greg Pierce > 8th AFHS - WA Chapter > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: Fordlauer@aol.com > Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:06:38 EDT > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Howdy Y'all > > First off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won. > And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their > duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion. > Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in > that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that > theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to > come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can > stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one > way or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............ > > Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes > were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on > oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have > been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many > bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures. > They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war > over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely > knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high > altitude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if > he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no > doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either > the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses > would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two > cents..................Ford J. Lauer III > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: Fordlauer@aol.com > Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:11:52 EDT > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29s over Europe > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Yes the Germans had fighters that went over 30,000 feet. It is our good > fortune that Hitler was such an idiot. He forbid mass production of the > ME-262 jet fighter for defense, until we were routinely flying thousand plane > raids. It was too late by then. Had it not been for Hitler, those jets would > have been mass produced in huge numbers, and in > 1943.......................Ford J. Lauer III > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Brian McGuire" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe > Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:45:00 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >
>

And, as you all know, the B-29 was designed very early on, for the mission of attacking Nazi Germany. This was before the Battle of Britain, which if lost meant that we would be flying bombing missions from a hell of a lot further away than England.

B > ian S. McGuire

>
>
>
>
>From: Fordlauer@aol.com >
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >
>To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe >
>Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:06:38 EDT >
> >
>Howdy Y'all >
> >
>First off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won. >
>And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their >
>duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion. >
>Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in >
>that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that >
>theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to >
>come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can >
>stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one >
>way or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............ >
> >
>Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes >
>were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on >
>oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have >
>been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many >
>bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures. >
>They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war >
>over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely >
>knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high >
>altitude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if >
>he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no >
>doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either >
>the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses >
>would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two >
>cents..................Ford J. Lauer III >
> >


Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
> > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: b.runnels@att.net > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-29 in Europe > Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:52:49 +0000 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Thanks for your input. To De-pressurize when in combat > would solve the problem. Early in the ETO , the > pressurization could not have been used anyway as the > missions were short and enemy aircraft picked up the > bombers over the channel. However, it would have been a > different story in late 1944 and 1945. The missions were > much longer and the enemy aircraft did not hit until > later in the mission, so the pressurization would have > been of value. I agree, the added bomb load could have > made a difference.....Bill Runnels, bombardier > > or another, all our wars were "the ones we won." That said............ > > > > Pressurization would not have been an issue, because over Japan the planes > > were de-pressurized. As they neared Japan, the pilots would put everyone on > > oxygen and depressurize the cabin for combat. The absolute plus would have > > been the increased bomb load of each. The B-29 was revolutionary and had many > > bugs to work out. Lots of them went down due to non-combat related failures. > > They should not have been deployed yet, but the push was on to get the war > > over with. In 1943 and first half of 1944, the "Huns" would have definitely > > knocked down many-many B-29s. Of course General LeMay changed from high > > altHoFirwdy Y'all > > > > st off- I am a proud veteran of the "Cold War" which is also a war we won. > > And the Korean War veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. They did their > > duty. So did the Vietnam veterans. In Korea, we checked communist expansion. > > Though Vietnam ended in a Viet Cong victory in the South, our involvement in > > that war forced the entire communist world to pour resources into that > > theater. In the end, it helped the Berlin Wall fall and the Soviet flag to > > come down that much sooner. And our boys in Desert Storm and Afghanistan can > > stand proudly beside the veterans of Normandy, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. In one > > way itude day missions, to low altitude night missions over Japan. I wonder if > > he would have done that in Europe if he had been the top general? I have no > > doubt that the same result over Europe would have been achieved with either > > the '17 or '29. It ended up being a war of attrition. As for how the losses > > would have stacked up plane for plane- nobody will ever know. That's my two > > cents..................Ford J. Lauer III > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: Jonestreeclimber@wmconnect.com > Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:21:30 EDT > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] William Morris Jones, Navigator > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > --part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Greeting to you all! > > My name is Linda (Jones) Dominque and I am the daughter of William M. Jones, > Navigator on Henn's Revenge. > > I have been reading for about 3 hours all the web sites about the 303rd and > Henn's Revenge!!!!!!! > > I am faaaaaaascinated and just thrilled it is all there for our families to > read and treasure!! Dad has recently given me all the family photos and > scrapbooks and I am going to try to write a tribute book about his life for > our descendants. > > I havn't told Dad this yet, so MUM'S the word!! Hoping to have it finished > by his birthday 2003. > > > If any of you have anything to contribute, please email me back. > > May God bless you each and everyone for your courage and service to our > country!! > > Sincerely yours, > Linda (JONES) Dominque > > > > --part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Greeting to you all!   >
>
My name is Linda (Jones) Dominque and I am the daughter of William M. Jones, Navigator on Henn's Revenge. >
>
I have been reading for about 3 hours all the web sites about the 303rd and Henn's Revenge!!!!!!! >
>
I am faaaaaaascinated and just thrilled it is all there for our families to read and treasure!!  Dad has recently given me all the family photos and scrapbooks and I am going to try to write a tribute book about his life for our descendants. >
>
I havn't told Dad this yet, so MUM'S the word!!  Hoping to have it finished by his birthday 2003. >
>
>
If any of you have anything to contribute, please email me back. >
>
May God bless you each and everyone for your courage and service to our country!! >
>
Sincerely yours, >
Linda (JONES) Dominque >
>
> > --part1_13c.e0ffcea.2a0b534a_boundary-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "ray.cossey1" > To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:46:08 +0100 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi All > > Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in their book "B-17 Fortress/B-29 = > Superfortress At War", on page 161, the experience of B-17 pilot, Lt. = > James W. Johnson, is related, thus: > > "Our squadron had reached the vicinity of the German coast, when we = > noticed a lone B-17 off to one side, some distance away. As we = > progressed it began to edge-in towards us and at first we assumed it was = > a straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, it seemed = > to have an odd colour. Our squadron leader tried to call up the stranger = > over the radio; we could hear him call, but he got no response. Our = > leader then became very suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to = > have our gunners bear onto this stranger. So ever gunner in our outfit = > who could, lined up on him. The pilot, whoever he was, must have = > understood the message, because almost immediately he started to pull = > away from us and kept going. From his behaviour we believe this Fort was = > enemy-operated". > > Now we know, from the captured wartime records of the Luftwaffe, that it = > had at least three captured B-17's at its disposal and that it used = > these on 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me wondering if = > any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident related by Lt James = > W. Johnson, or were their suspicions ever aroused in a similar way, from = > seeing 'strangers' around their formations.=20 > > I do understand that the odd lone B-17, having become separated from its = > own group's formation, would tag along with some other formation, by way = > of getting the protection afforded by that formation, but did any one in = > the 303rd ever witness, or hear reports, similar to that described by = > Johnson? > > Best wishes to all > > > Ray Cossey > England > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Hi All
>
 
>
Roger Freeman and David Anderton, in = > their book=20 > "B-17 Fortress/B-29 Superfortress At War", on page 161,  the = > experience of=20 > B-17 pilot, Lt. James W. Johnson, is related, thus:
>
 
>
"Our squadron had reached the vicinity = > of the=20 > German coast, when we noticed a lone B-17 off to one side, some distance = > away.=20 > As we progressed it began to edge-in towards us and at first we assumed = > it was a=20 > straggler from another group. Something didn't look right, it seemed to = > have an=20 > odd colour. Our squadron leader tried to call up the stranger over the = > radio; we=20 > could hear him call, but he got no response. Our leader then became very = > > suspicious and came on the radio to tell us to have our gunners bear = > onto this=20 > stranger. So ever gunner in our outfit who could, lined up on him. The = > pilot,=20 > whoever he was, must have understood the message, because almost = > immediately=20 > he started to pull away from us and kept going. From his behaviour = > we=20 > believe this Fort was enemy-operated".
>
 
>
Now we know, from the captured = > wartime records=20 > of the Luftwaffe, that it had at least three captured B-17's at its = > disposal and=20 > that it used these on 'illicit missions', as it were. This has left me = > wondering=20 > if any 303rd crews ever witnessed the sort of incident related by Lt = > James W.=20 > Johnson, or were their suspicions ever aroused in a similar way, from = > seeing=20 > 'strangers' around their formations.
>
 
>
I do understand that the odd lone B-17, = > having=20 > become separated from its own group's formation, would tag along with = > some other=20 > formation, by way of getting the protection afforded by=20 > that formation, but did any one in the 303rd ever witness, or hear = > reports,=20 > similar to that described by Johnson?
>
 
>
Best wishes to all
>
 
>
 
>
Ray Cossey
>
England
>
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: = > 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: = > EN-GB; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"> face=3DArial size=3D2> 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1F735.F6A59A60-- > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 9 21:44:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:44:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation? References: <001a01c1f72d$d8096d50$22e4fc3e@RAY> <3CDABC8E.CD238889@attglobal.net> <006901c1f794$ccd69540$21e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3CDADFB0.73AD0E34@attglobal.net> --------------4061781FB1910D2E46B896DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Ray. When one has experiences like this, it is normal to be a bit loathe to mention to others. I can even NOW see that crew in the "strange" B17 on my left wing and I also recall that "something" did not look right ... and in the end I often thought if it was not the different type of oxygen mask they were wearing. (I thought at the time). It will ALWAYS be something I cannot put my finger on, as it were. BTW, have you ever received my Email anent my short story about Pauline Black and I during the war? Am working at home now, for AA. It is a test period, but if it obtains it can certainly save millions of dollars in their Reservation system. My best to you and yours, the MBE ... Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Thanks Bill Heller for your riveting account of your own > experience and which is almost identical to that related > by fellow B-17 pilot, Lt James W Johnson. When I raised > this question, to be honest, I thought it extremely > unlikely that a 303rder would have had a similar > experience, but how wrong I was. The B-24 incident you > refer to, Bill, took place only a mile from where I'm > sitting, composing this e-mail. Station 145 was the > Rackheath home to planes from the 467th BG and on the > evening of April 22, 1944, at around 9.30pm they were > returning to their home base, somewhat late. Making their > final approach, over Rackheath, they were 'set upon' by an > enemy plane. This aircraft (at the time some claim it to > have been an Me410) had, somehow, got amongst the B-24s > and the resulting mayhem caused a number of the B-24s to > crash over the Rackheath base and the surrounding > area. This incident has gone down in local folk-lore and > for decades the question has been asked, ' how could the > B-24 aircrews have been so inattentive as to let 'gerry' > get amongst them?' With yours and Lt Johnson's > experiences, Bill, perhaps it wasn't a German fighter at > all. Might it have been something else? Could some less > obvious intruder have attached itself to the returning > formation? If the Germans had captured B-17s, why not a > few B-24s as well? I guess we'll never know the truth and > can only speculate. --------------4061781FB1910D2E46B896DE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Ray. When one has experiences like this, it is normal to be a bit loathe to mention to others. I can even NOW see that crew in the "strange" B17 on my left wing and I also recall that "something" did not look right ... and in the end I often thought if it was not the different type of oxygen mask they were wearing.  (I thought at the time). It will ALWAYS be something I cannot put my finger on, as it were.

BTW, have you ever received my Email anent my short story about Pauline Black and I during the war?

Am working at home now, for AA. It is a test period, but if it obtains it can certainly save millions of dollars in their Reservation system.

My best to you and yours, the MBE ...

Cheers!

WCH

"ray.cossey1" wrote:

Thanks Bill Heller for your riveting account of your own experience and which is almost identical to that related by fellow B-17 pilot, Lt James W Johnson.  When I raised this question, to be honest, I thought it extremely unlikely that a 303rder would have had a similar experience, but how wrong I was. The B-24 incident you refer to, Bill, took place only a mile from where I'm sitting, composing this e-mail. Station 145 was the Rackheath home to planes from the 467th BG and on the evening of April 22, 1944, at around 9.30pm they were returning to their home base, somewhat late. Making their final approach, over Rackheath, they were 'set upon' by an enemy plane. This aircraft (at the time some claim it to have been an Me410) had, somehow, got amongst the B-24s and the resulting mayhem caused a number of the B-24s to crash over the Rackheath base and the surrounding area. This incident has gone down in local folk-lore and for decades the question has been asked, ' how could the B-24 aircrews have been so inattentive as to let 'gerry' get amongst them?' With yours and Lt Johnson's experiences, Bill, perhaps it wasn't a German fighter at all. Might it have been something else? Could some less obvious intruder have attached itself to the returning formation? If the Germans had captured B-17s, why not a few B-24s as well? I guess we'll never know the truth and can only speculate.
--------------4061781FB1910D2E46B896DE-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 10 02:25:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:25:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The foe in our formation (B-24) Message-ID: <140.e46dd8c.2a0c7b76@aol.com> I remember hearing about the B-24 incident. I don't know if it is the same incident, but the reason why the plane got in with the B-24 formation and no one thought any thing about it is because---it was also a B-24 that the Germans had captured!!..I have also read about Germans capturing P-38s and putting them into formations of P-38s and causing havoc. Terry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 11 19:25:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Louis Grandwilliams) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Taps Message-ID: <564-3CDD6231-1228@storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-9102-641 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Richard "Dick" Dimick - 359th B Sqd,tail gunner on Old Black Magic, Tarvid's crew, died on May 8th Dick was an avid out-doors man and mechanic. He loved big game hunting and with his wife, Jody as cameraman, hunted the world over. He restored old cars -- rag top Caddies with fins. Starting with old rusted hulks or frames, he made beautiful cars. At last count he had over 20, all running, registered, insured and gleaming like new. The Caddies will be driven, by members of his Old Car Club in the funeral procession. We will miss him. Jody Dimick's e-mail jdcaddy@thegrid.net Louis Grandwilliams pilot, Old Black Magic --WebTV-Mail-9102-641 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-9102-641-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 10 06:44:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 06:44:56 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation References: <20020509160441.1DDE353675@pairlist.net> <001801c1f794$d3dde640$0000a398@SHANK> Message-ID: <000a01c1f835$81038050$a1e4fc3e@RAY> To Herb Shanker Thanks for your recollection, Herb which has got me questioning the German's intelligence in these matters. Why the heck would they go for entirely fictitious markings, which would alert any US crew who saw them? Having said that, they would need something distinctive in their aircraft's markings to help their own fighters distinguish them from the enemy........ you guys. Somewhere, hidden in the archives is no doubt the answer, but where do we start looking? Anyone got a reference as to where we can inspect the Luftwaffe's wartime records? Come to think of it, would they have recorded such a thing? Does anyone know of any books/articles on the subject of 'phoney aircraft' etc. For me, it is another little-talked-about, but fascinating aspect of war which, until the records are opened-up for inspection in the fullness of time, will remain something of an unanswered question. The fact that both Bill Heller and yourself have recollections of seeing such 'rogue planes' convinces me. You two, plus Lt. Williamson , can't all have been mistaken. Bill Heller's misapprehensions over the style of waving, of the other B-17 pilot, and the strange look of his oxygen mask, is a fascinating insight into this matter. Perhaps there are other witnesses to such incidents who, now that I have prompted their memory, will recall similar experiences? Thanks once again for responding so promptly to this limey's query Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 11 22:24:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:24:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation References: <20020509160441.1DDE353675@pairlist.net> <001801c1f794$d3dde640$0000a398@SHANK> <000a01c1f835$81038050$a1e4fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3CDD8C1D.74D3600E@attglobal.net> Ray ... As an aside, anent your recent message to Shanker, we can recall that Germans, and Europeans for the most part ... when they wave, do not do so as most Yanks do, merely with the wave of the hand. In my days both as a youth when I visited Germany and the day that German pilot ( the copilot) waved back to me, THE PALM WAS FACING HIMSELF. I am sure you have seen this with many Europeans and Germans. As I look back, it is an interesting subject and there MUST have been SOMETHING on the "phony" B17 (or whatever) to let the Germans know NOT to attack it. As to the wave ... there are so many things we notice and yet they do not tell us the "strangeness" of the moment. I have this habit of eating like Europeans and the English, ie., with knife in left hand and fork in right. Many people remark about that to me. I recall a story that a "spy" was once supposed to have been caught because he ate like a Yank, ie., putting his knife down so he could change the fork to his right hand ... So many funny things, and yet we do not notice AT THE MOMENT .. Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > To Herb Shanker > > Thanks for your recollection, Herb which has got me questioning the German's > intelligence in these matters. Why the heck would they go for entirely > fictitious markings, which would alert any US crew who saw them? > > Having said that, they would need something distinctive in their aircraft's > markings to help their own fighters distinguish them from the enemy........ > you guys. > > Somewhere, hidden in the archives is no doubt the answer, but where do we > start looking? Anyone got a reference as to where we can inspect the > Luftwaffe's wartime records? Come to think of it, would they have recorded > such a thing? Does anyone know of any books/articles on the subject of > 'phoney aircraft' etc. > > For me, it is another little-talked-about, but fascinating aspect of war > which, until the records are opened-up for inspection in the fullness of > time, will remain something of an unanswered question. > > The fact that both Bill Heller and yourself have recollections of seeing > such 'rogue planes' convinces me. You two, plus Lt. Williamson , can't all > have been mistaken. Bill Heller's misapprehensions over the style of waving, > of the other B-17 pilot, and the strange look of his oxygen mask, is a > fascinating insight into this matter. > > Perhaps there are other witnesses to such incidents who, now that I have > prompted their memory, will recall similar experiences? > > Thanks once again for responding so promptly to this limey's query > > Ray Cossey > England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 07:20:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 23:20:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] LWAG In-Reply-To: <000a01c1f835$81038050$a1e4fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: Hi Ray, There is a place to find out things to do with the Luftwaffe. I am a part of this group, and was there at the inception (in fact I named it). It is run by a great guy, Richard Eger, and is composed of like minded people from around the world (I am the Canadian rep....not that I have a lot to do here in Canada....there are not a lot of archives here) It is the LWAG, or "Luftwaffe Archives Group". The URL is : http://www.stormbirds.com/lwag/ There are a dozen or so sites on the opening page that you can go to. All of them contain info on the Luftwaffe, and most have English message boards where one can post a query or a comment. There are also the main discussion boards, where you can post a question, in a certain area of Europe, or the world, and you will get answers to your questions there as well. Richard and about 25 other people, including myself, got it set up two years ago, and it has proved very successful. I don't go there enough any more, but I have been a lot of late. Seems there are a lot of questions about the Luftwaffe these days. This is definitely the site to help you out. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of ray.cossey1 Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:45 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation To Herb Shanker Thanks for your recollection, Herb which has got me questioning the German's intelligence in these matters. Why the heck would they go for entirely fictitious markings, which would alert any US crew who saw them? Having said that, they would need something distinctive in their aircraft's markings to help their own fighters distinguish them from the enemy........ you guys. Somewhere, hidden in the archives is no doubt the answer, but where do we start looking? Anyone got a reference as to where we can inspect the Luftwaffe's wartime records? Come to think of it, would they have recorded such a thing? Does anyone know of any books/articles on the subject of 'phoney aircraft' etc. For me, it is another little-talked-about, but fascinating aspect of war which, until the records are opened-up for inspection in the fullness of time, will remain something of an unanswered question. The fact that both Bill Heller and yourself have recollections of seeing such 'rogue planes' convinces me. You two, plus Lt. Williamson , can't all have been mistaken. Bill Heller's misapprehensions over the style of waving, of the other B-17 pilot, and the strange look of his oxygen mask, is a fascinating insight into this matter. Perhaps there are other witnesses to such incidents who, now that I have prompted their memory, will recall similar experiences? Thanks once again for responding so promptly to this limey's query Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 18:50:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 10:50:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades Message-ID: <3CDE48FC.6185.843F15@localhost> Bill Jones, I approved your message, but it hasn't shown up on the list yet. I'll try to answer it anyway. Ed Miller and Dennis Smith are (were ?) keeping track of the missing comrades that were found and have joined the Association. One of them may be able to give us some numbers. In fact, there are not many. Most of the missing comrades that we can account for have passed away. Many of those living are not in very good health. Some have joined as well as some family members, but most other priorities and have not. It's a shame we didn't have the capability 10 or 15 years ago that we have now to find people and make this information available to the world. 303rdBGA.com has been officially online for almost 4 1/2 years and has been a phenomenal success in finding people and allowing people to find us. It is a slow process, but virtully every day we hear from a family member of a 303rd BG veteran who are excited to find us. It is those contacts that keep the spirits and excitement level high for those of us involved with this. Ed, Dennis ------ and you give us some numbers? Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 21:41:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:41:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation Message-ID: Hi Ray: In the book IV.(Sturm)/JG 3, a book printed all in German, it makes reference to the German-flown B-17s and B-24s, and how the markings on the planes distinguished them from US planes. I need to dig this book out and relook. Kevin >From: "ray.cossey1" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation >Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 06:44:56 +0100 > >To Herb Shanker > >Thanks for your recollection, Herb which has got me questioning the >German's >intelligence in these matters. Why the heck would they go for entirely >fictitious markings, which would alert any US crew who saw them? > >Having said that, they would need something distinctive in their aircraft's >markings to help their own fighters distinguish them from the enemy........ >you guys. > >Somewhere, hidden in the archives is no doubt the answer, but where do we >start looking? Anyone got a reference as to where we can inspect the >Luftwaffe's wartime records? Come to think of it, would they have recorded >such a thing? Does anyone know of any books/articles on the subject of >'phoney aircraft' etc. > >For me, it is another little-talked-about, but fascinating aspect of war >which, until the records are opened-up for inspection in the fullness of >time, will remain something of an unanswered question. > >The fact that both Bill Heller and yourself have recollections of seeing >such 'rogue planes' convinces me. You two, plus Lt. Williamson , can't all >have been mistaken. Bill Heller's misapprehensions over the style of >waving, >of the other B-17 pilot, and the strange look of his oxygen mask, is a >fascinating insight into this matter. > >Perhaps there are other witnesses to such incidents who, now that I have >prompted their memory, will recall similar experiences? > >Thanks once again for responding so promptly to this limey's query > >Ray Cossey >England > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 21:43:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:43:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation Message-ID: Bill's recollection of "the wave" reminded me of another distinguishing characteristic of Europeans. Many downed American aircrews were captured while eating in public places. Just watch how Europeans handle their silerware. Fork in left hand, not the right, as we use it. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 21:46:00 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:46:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades Message-ID: Gary: I posted a message about Switzerland on Friday, but do not see it on the board. Is the system just slow again? Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >CC: edmiller@pldi.net, Dennis Smith >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades >Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 10:50:36 -0700 > >Bill Jones, >I approved your message, but it hasn't shown up on the list yet. I'll try >to answer it anyway. > >Ed Miller and Dennis Smith are (were ?) keeping track of the missing >comrades that were found and have joined the Association. One of >them may be able to give us some numbers. In fact, there are not >many. Most of the missing comrades that we can account for have >passed away. Many of those living are not in very good health. Some >have joined as well as some family members, but most other priorities >and have not. It's a shame we didn't have the capability 10 or 15 >years ago that we have now to find people and make this information >available to the world. > >303rdBGA.com has been officially online for almost 4 1/2 years and >has been a phenomenal success in finding people and allowing >people to find us. It is a slow process, but virtully every day we hear >from a family member of a 303rd BG veteran who are excited to find >us. It is those contacts that keep the spirits and excitement level high >for those of us involved with this. > >Ed, Dennis ------ and you give us some numbers? > >Thanks, >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 13 00:31:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 16:31:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CDE98EC.1961.F8BA4F@localhost> > Gary: I posted a message about Switzerland on Friday, but do > not see it on the board. Is the system just slow again? Kevin, Please post it again. I don't know where it went, but I know a few are in cyberspace somewhere. Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 12 14:51:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:51:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Search for comrades data ? Message-ID: This is probably a question best answered by Gary, but I thought the answer might be of interest to others. I am curious whether the information about the "found" individuals in the associations Missing Comrade search, will be made available at some time? Presumably, individuals who join the association will eventually show up in the membership directory, however particularly for a deceased individual whose family members don't join the association, there doesn't seem to be a way to locate the information that was turned up in the search, be it addresses of relatives or whatever. Just curious. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 13 21:41:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:41:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #594 - 6 msgs References: <20020513160209.E6E595389B@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000001c1fabf$b171b040$0000a398@SHANK> To Ray Cossey - Further in the story of strange B-17's being used by the Germans, I seem to recall that this question of the use of 17's was asked of Adolf Galland and his response was that he had no knowledge of this having been done. Since there is no reasonable basis for disbelieving him, this may be an indication of how highly secretive this usage was even amongst themselves. I gained this info either from our newsletter or the 8th Air Force newsletter and I estimate that it appeared about 2 years ago. This message may come thru twice as I had a slight glitch in my computer. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #594 - 6 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Missing Comrades (Gary Moncur) > 2. Re: Re: The foe in our formation (Kevin Pearson) > 3. Re: Re: The foe in our formation (Kevin Pearson) > 4. Re: Missing Comrades (Kevin Pearson) > 5. Re: Missing Comrades (Gary Moncur) > 6. ? Search for comrades data ? (Bill Jones) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 10:50:36 -0700 > Cc: edmiller@pldi.net, Dennis Smith > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill Jones, > I approved your message, but it hasn't shown up on the list yet. I'll try > to answer it anyway. > > Ed Miller and Dennis Smith are (were ?) keeping track of the missing > comrades that were found and have joined the Association. One of > them may be able to give us some numbers. In fact, there are not > many. Most of the missing comrades that we can account for have > passed away. Many of those living are not in very good health. Some > have joined as well as some family members, but most other priorities > and have not. It's a shame we didn't have the capability 10 or 15 > years ago that we have now to find people and make this information > available to the world. > > 303rdBGA.com has been officially online for almost 4 1/2 years and > has been a phenomenal success in finding people and allowing > people to find us. It is a slow process, but virtully every day we hear > from a family member of a 303rd BG veteran who are excited to find > us. It is those contacts that keep the spirits and excitement level high > for those of us involved with this. > > Ed, Dennis ------ and you give us some numbers? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:41:08 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Ray: In the book IV.(Sturm)/JG 3, a book printed all in German, it makes > reference to the German-flown B-17s and B-24s, and how the markings on the > planes distinguished them from US planes. I need to dig this book out and > relook. > Kevin > > > >From: "ray.cossey1" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation > >Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 06:44:56 +0100 > > > >To Herb Shanker > > > >Thanks for your recollection, Herb which has got me questioning the > >German's > >intelligence in these matters. Why the heck would they go for entirely > >fictitious markings, which would alert any US crew who saw them? > > > >Having said that, they would need something distinctive in their aircraft's > >markings to help their own fighters distinguish them from the enemy........ > >you guys. > > > >Somewhere, hidden in the archives is no doubt the answer, but where do we > >start looking? Anyone got a reference as to where we can inspect the > >Luftwaffe's wartime records? Come to think of it, would they have recorded > >such a thing? Does anyone know of any books/articles on the subject of > >'phoney aircraft' etc. > > > >For me, it is another little-talked-about, but fascinating aspect of war > >which, until the records are opened-up for inspection in the fullness of > >time, will remain something of an unanswered question. > > > >The fact that both Bill Heller and yourself have recollections of seeing > >such 'rogue planes' convinces me. You two, plus Lt. Williamson , can't all > >have been mistaken. Bill Heller's misapprehensions over the style of > >waving, > >of the other B-17 pilot, and the strange look of his oxygen mask, is a > >fascinating insight into this matter. > > > >Perhaps there are other witnesses to such incidents who, now that I have > >prompted their memory, will recall similar experiences? > > > >Thanks once again for responding so promptly to this limey's query > > > >Ray Cossey > >England > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The foe in our formation > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:43:58 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill's recollection of "the wave" reminded me of another distinguishing > characteristic of Europeans. Many downed American aircrews were captured > while eating in public places. Just watch how Europeans handle their > silerware. Fork in left hand, not the right, as we use it. > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:46:00 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Gary: I posted a message about Switzerland on Friday, but do not see it on > the board. Is the system just slow again? > Kevin > > > >From: "Gary Moncur" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >CC: edmiller@pldi.net, Dennis Smith > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades > >Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 10:50:36 -0700 > > > >Bill Jones, > >I approved your message, but it hasn't shown up on the list yet. I'll try > >to answer it anyway. > > > >Ed Miller and Dennis Smith are (were ?) keeping track of the missing > >comrades that were found and have joined the Association. One of > >them may be able to give us some numbers. In fact, there are not > >many. Most of the missing comrades that we can account for have > >passed away. Many of those living are not in very good health. Some > >have joined as well as some family members, but most other priorities > >and have not. It's a shame we didn't have the capability 10 or 15 > >years ago that we have now to find people and make this information > >available to the world. > > > >303rdBGA.com has been officially online for almost 4 1/2 years and > >has been a phenomenal success in finding people and allowing > >people to find us. It is a slow process, but virtully every day we hear > >from a family member of a 303rd BG veteran who are excited to find > >us. It is those contacts that keep the spirits and excitement level high > >for those of us involved with this. > > > >Ed, Dennis ------ and you give us some numbers? > > > >Thanks, > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 16:31:40 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Comrades > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Gary: I posted a message about Switzerland on Friday, but do > > not see it on the board. Is the system just slow again? > > Kevin, > Please post it again. I don't know where it went, but I > know a few are in cyberspace somewhere. > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:51:22 -0400 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Search for comrades data ? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > This is probably a question best answered by Gary, but I thought > the answer might be of interest to others. > I am curious whether the information about the "found" individuals > in the associations Missing Comrade search, will be made > available at some time? Presumably, individuals who join the > association will eventually show up in the membership directory, > however particularly for a deceased individual whose family > members don't join the association, there doesn't seem to be a > way to locate the information that was turned up in the search, be > it addresses of relatives or whatever. > Just curious. > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 14 04:04:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 22:04:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] virus! Message-ID:

A friend of mine (AF officer) just sent me an email about a virus someone notified him about, and warned everyone on his e-mail list that they probably have it. I checked and he is right, I had it. It sits dormant for 14 days then starts to destroy files. I have deleted it and am forwarding the instructions he sent me. Suggest you act of this immediately. Sorry about being in the middle of this.

It automatically sends itself to everyone in your address book so please pass this on.

DO THIS:
1.  Go to start, Find or Search option.
2.  In the files/folder option, write the name jdbgmgr.exe
3.  Be sure you search your C: drive
4.  click "find now"
5.  the virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe
DO NOT OPEN IT
6.  Right click and delete it. It will then go to the Recycle Bin
7.  Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well.
IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. SORRY ABOUT THIS.  I'M SURE EVERYONE IN MY ADDRESS BOOK WILL HAVE IT.


Brian S. McGuire



Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 14 15:11:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian D. O'Neill) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:11:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: virus! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_IpvwZ4AXEzatbmpy6Yp6bg) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_87qoGGOP+BSjQUuzcbAVmQ)" --Boundary_(ID_87qoGGOP+BSjQUuzcbAVmQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have it on good authority that this virus is a hoax. See attached email for details. Brian O'Neill -----Original Message----- From: Brian McGuire [mailto:brianmac2@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 11:05 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com; brandx@dialstart.net; brotherton@brandonforest.freeserve.co.uk; olddocbrown@msn.com; CARLADBASS@AOL.COM; steve@sclb17.freeserve.co.uk; claudia.payne@virgin.net; rafalcon@hotmail.com; Da1smith@pacbell.net; rdamato@cfl.rr.com; David_Walker@artist-illustrator.fsnet.co.uk; Gcgirman@aol.com; Pilot8thAF@aol.com; bagnoli2@yahoo.com; bhandsr@earthlink.net; wargamer17@hotmail.com; Hydeho13@aol.com; Bruce.Henninger@jac.af.mil; kh_btvs@hotmail.com; pm.jim.jewell.haycot@lineone.net; jdagcuta@data911.com; Jprencher@aol.com; KeithHillStudios@aol.com; kentucker@hotmail.com; kevinmpearson@hotmail.com; billnjan@ureach.com; kpearson@aedcweb.com; go4fort@hotmail.com; rafaafb17@yahoo.co.uk; brotherman@brandonforest.freeserve.co.uk; melissa.melich@osd.pentagon.mil; Mike.Asquith@unilever.com; millerj@attglobal.net; mmilich@yahoo.com; glm@xmission.comGary; muzzylass@yahoo.com; nancymdvm@hotmail.com; nyela@earthlink.net; b.oneill1@comcast.net; park_uk@yahoo.com; patricia_lombardi@hotmail.com Subject: virus! A friend of mine (AF officer) just sent me an email about a virus someone notified him about, and warned everyone on his e-mail list that they probably have it. I checked and he is right, I had it. It sits dormant for 14 days then starts to destroy files. I have deleted it and am forwarding the instructions he sent me. Suggest you act of this immediately. Sorry about being in the middle of this. It automatically sends itself to everyone in your address book so please pass this on. DO THIS: 1. Go to start, Find or Search option. 2. In the files/folder option, write the name jdbgmgr.exe 3. Be sure you search your C: drive 4. click "find now" 5. the virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe DO NOT OPEN IT 6. Right click and delete it. It will then go to the Recycle Bin 7. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well. IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. SORRY ABOUT THIS. I'M SURE EVERYONE IN MY ADDRESS BOOK WILL HAVE IT. Brian S. McGuire ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here --Boundary_(ID_87qoGGOP+BSjQUuzcbAVmQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I have it on good authority that this virus is a hoax.  See attached email for details.
 
Brian O'Neill
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian McGuire [mailto:brianmac2@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 11:05 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com; brandx@dialstart.net; brotherton@brandonforest.freeserve.co.uk; olddocbrown@msn.com; CARLADBASS@AOL.COM; steve@sclb17.freeserve.co.uk; claudia.payne@virgin.net; rafalcon@hotmail.com; Da1smith@pacbell.net; rdamato@cfl.rr.com; David_Walker@artist-illustrator.fsnet.co.uk; Gcgirman@aol.com; Pilot8thAF@aol.com; bagnoli2@yahoo.com; bhandsr@earthlink.net; wargamer17@hotmail.com; Hydeho13@aol.com; Bruce.Henninger@jac.af.mil; kh_btvs@hotmail.com; pm.jim.jewell.haycot@lineone.net; jdagcuta@data911.com; Jprencher@aol.com; KeithHillStudios@aol.com; kentucker@hotmail.com; kevinmpearson@hotmail.com; billnjan@ureach.com; kpearson@aedcweb.com; go4fort@hotmail.com; rafaafb17@yahoo.co.uk; brotherman@brandonforest.freeserve.co.uk; melissa.melich@osd.pentagon.mil; Mike.Asquith@unilever.com; millerj@attglobal.net; mmilich@yahoo.com; glm@xmission.comGary; muzzylass@yahoo.com; nancymdvm@hotmail.com; nyela@earthlink.net; b.oneill1@comcast.net; park_uk@yahoo.com; patricia_lombardi@hotmail.com
Subject: virus!

A friend of mine (AF officer) just sent me an email about a virus someone notified him about, and warned everyone on his e-mail list that they probably have it. I checked and he is right, I had it. It sits dormant for 14 days then starts to destroy files. I have deleted it and am forwarding the instructions he sent me. Suggest you act of this immediately. Sorry about being in the middle of this.

It automatically sends itself to everyone in your address book so please pass this on.

DO THIS:
1.  Go to start, Find or Search option.
2.  In the files/folder option, write the name jdbgmgr.exe
3.  Be sure you search your C: drive
4.  click "find now"
5.  the virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe
DO NOT OPEN IT
6.  Right click and delete it. It will then go to the Recycle Bin
7.  Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well.
IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. SORRY ABOUT THIS.  I'M SURE EVERYONE IN MY ADDRESS BOOK WILL HAVE IT.


Brian S. McGuire



Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
--Boundary_(ID_87qoGGOP+BSjQUuzcbAVmQ)-- --Boundary_(ID_IpvwZ4AXEzatbmpy6Yp6bg) Content-type: message/rfc822 Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 19:26:33 -0400 From: "M.T. Pursell" Subject: [TSING] Virus hoax X-Sender: Pursell_MT@compuserve.com To: TSING , "Pursell, Ben @ Yahoo" Reply-to: TSING@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <200205101926_MC3-FD73-4DD6@compuserve.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Apparently-To: TSING@yahoogroups.com X-Yahoo-Profile: pursell_mt X-eGroups-Return: sentto-4647159-325-1021073219-b.oneill1=comcast.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com List-Unsubscribe: David is right -- this is not a virus. I went to the Symantec site and found the info appended just below. False alarm. Sorry about that. Tate ____________________ Jdbgmgr.exe file hoax Reported on: April 12, 2002 Last Updated on: May 1, 2002 at 05:17:49 PM PDT Symantec Security Response encourages you to ignore any messages regarding this hoax. It is harmless and is intended only to cause unwarranted concern. Type: Hoax This is a hoax that, like the SULFNBK.EXE Warning hoax, tries to persuade you to delete a legitimate Windows file from your computer. The file that the hoax refers to, Jdbgmgr.exe, is a Java Debugger Manager. It is a Microsoft file that is installed when you install Windows. It has a teddy bear icon as described in the hoax: CAUTION: Jdbgmgr.exe, like any file, can become infected by a virus. One virus in particular, W32.Efortune.31384@mm, targets this file. Norton AntiVirus has provided protection against W32.Efortune.31384@mm since May 11, 2001. NOTE: If you have already deleted the Jdbgmgr.exe file, some Java applets may not run correctly. This is not a critical system file. The file version may vary with your operating system and version of Internet Explorer. If you want to restore the file, please contact Microsoft for instructions. -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: INTERNET:TSING@yahoogroups.com, INTERNET:TSING@yahoogroups.com To: [unknown], INTERNET:TSING@yahoogroups.com Date: 5/10/02 6:59 PM RE: RE: [TSING] Virus Tate, I believe this isn't a virus. It was discussed on the ChemPharma yahoogroups extensively over the past few days. I will try to find the email. I think deleting it actually screws up Windows. Double check before you do anything. Dave 3 Haven Hill Rise Flemington, NJ 08822 hdmentzer@earthlink.net 908-237-9769 (O) 908-334-7495 (C) -----Original Message----- From: M.T. Pursell [mailto:Pursell_MT@compuserve.com] Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 6:47 PM To: TSING; Pursell, Ben @ Yahoo Subject: [TSING] Virus I found this virus on my hard disk, with no date listed, so I do not know how long it's been there. I suggest you follow the directions below, and if you find it, eliminate it. Tate ___________________ I received the forwarded message below through another net group. ___________________ > I just received a message today from one of my coworkers in my Address > Book. Their Address Book had been infected by a virus and it was passed > on to my computer. My Address Book, in turn, has been infected. The virus > (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or McAfee anti virus systems. > The virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging the system. It's sent > automatically by the messenger and by the Address Book, whether or not you > sent emails to your contacts. I have checked, found it, and deleted it. I > also checked with our ITS department and they have confirmed that it should > be removed. I may have sent this message to you more than once, I just > wanted to be sure to get everyone! > > Here's how to check for the virus and how to get rid of it: > DO THIS; > 1. Go to Start,Find, or Search option. > 2. In the files/folder option, write the name jdbgmgr.exe > 3. Be sure you search your C;drive > 4. Click "find now" > 5. The virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe > DO NOT OPEN IT > 6. Right click and delete it. It will then go to the Recycle Bin > 7. Go to the recycle bin and delete it there as well. > IMPORTANT > If you find the virus, you must contact all the people in your address > book > so they can eradicate it in their own address book ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/u2qrlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TSING-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --Boundary_(ID_IpvwZ4AXEzatbmpy6Yp6bg)-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 14 16:01:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:01:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Virus hoax Message-ID: Hello list, This is a copy of a letter I got yesterday: I'm afraid you've been had by a hoax, the file will be found on all windows installations. Savvy net users will recognize this as a variation of the SULFNBK.EXE hoax, which is another that targets legitimate Windows components (i.e., you will find it because it's installed by the operating system). Details here, and also tells how to restore this file: http://www.europe.f-secure.com/hoaxes/jdbgmgr.shtml http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html http://www.stiller.com/hoaxes.htm It's always a good idea to check the better known hoax sites before getting to far along with these types of things. I shows that this kind of thing should not be included on our talk list. If you think you have a virus, get it checked out and involve only those concerned. Please don't put them on the list anymore. Thanks. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 15 01:43:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:43:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk} Switzerland Internees Message-ID: Anyone on this forum interred in Switzerland during the war. Just finished a facinating account by Dan Cullen, 44th BG(H), titled Black Hole of Wauwilermoos. It's the story of a young airman who tried to escape once in Switzerland, and was thrown in a Federal prison by the Swiss government when he was caught. Apparently the American Attache and the General in charge of those interred, would not tolerate escape of any kind, while the Germans were free to cross the borders on a daily basis. Just wondering what others know, or have heard. I guess it wasn't a piece of cake like everyone thinks. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 17 13:12:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Louis Grandwilliams) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: [303rd-Talk] Taps Message-ID: <15203-3CE4F3A3-151@storefull-2353.public.lawson.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-19894-67 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-19894-67 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-19894-67 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-2116.public.lawson.webtv.net (209.240.213.126) by storefull-2352.public.lawson.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 11 May 2002 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pairlist.net (pairlist.net [216.92.1.92]) by smtpin-2116.public.lawson.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 7AC30FE01; Sat, 11 May 2002 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pairlist.net (localhost.pair.com [127.0.0.1]) by pairlist.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E875D53745; Sat, 11 May 2002 14:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: 303rd-talk@pairlist.net Received: from arda.pair.com (arda.pair.com [209.68.1.133]) by pairlist.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 10D8153679 for <303rd-talk@lists.303rdbga.com>; Sat, 11 May 2002 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3259 invoked by uid 62225); 11 May 2002 18:25:54 -0000 Delivered-To: glm-303rdbga:com-303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Received: (qmail 3256 invoked from network); 11 May 2002 18:25:54 -0000 Received: from mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.118) by arda.pair.com with SMTP; 11 May 2002 18:25:54 -0000 Received: from storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net (storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net [209.240.213.151]) by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id C29E49F4; Sat, 11 May 2002 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA19310; Sat, 11 May 2002 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRG0WbSvtd6qyDZggT7qhaYfwbcBQIVAMSlrt3jnTaWDgZ9lJizMcoTT8RZ From: OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net (Louis Grandwilliams) To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Cc: jdcaddy@thegrid.net Message-ID: <564-3CDD6231-1228@storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-9102-641 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Taps Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Errors-To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com X-BeenThere: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: 303rd Bomb Group Forum <303rd-talk.303rdBGA.com> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:25:53 -0400 (EDT) --WebTV-Mail-9102-641 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Richard "Dick" Dimick - 359th B Sqd,tail gunner on Old Black Magic, Tarvid's crew, died on May 8th Dick was an avid out-doors man and mechanic. He loved big game hunting and with his wife, Jody as cameraman, hunted the world over. He restored old cars -- rag top Caddies with fins. Starting with old rusted hulks or frames, he made beautiful cars. At last count he had over 20, all running, registered, insured and gleaming like new. The Caddies will be driven, by members of his Old Car Club in the funeral procession. We will miss him. Jody Dimick's e-mail jdcaddy@thegrid.net Louis Grandwilliams pilot, Old Black Magic --WebTV-Mail-9102-641 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-9102-641-- --WebTV-Mail-19894-67-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 18 03:08:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John I. Jenkins) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 20:08:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: An additional unknown aircraft Message-ID: <003d01c1fe12$620d74c0$590fa641@oemcomputer> THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS A RETRANSMISSION OF A "FAILED" MESSAGE ----- Original Message ----- From: "John I. Jenkins" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:21 AM Subject: An additional unknown aircraft > On the return flight of one of our crew's very early missions, most > likely during one of the early September 1944 series of missions to > Ludwigshaven, a strange B-17 appeared in our formation. Although details > are lost to me, the aircraft was painted in the earlier style of a sort of > olive drab paint, and any group/squadron/aircraft markings were not at all > well defined. From what little I, as a navigator, could hear of one side of > the radio traffic concerning the airplane, the intent within our formation > apparently was to do nothing about it but to permit the plane to stay with > us until it could perhaps be dealt with by friendly fighters. > This airplane stationed itself about fifty yards off our left wing, > and the only crewman I could see was the occupant of the right seat in the > cockpit. Nothing came of whatever was planned as it departed the vicinity > of the formation before any action occurred. > An unrelated addendum: To those of the organization who may have > enjoyed part of the Summer of 1942 in training at the Alamogordo Army > Air Field, the place is now known as Holloman Air Force Base. One of the > units located there is a Luftwaffe organization that trains its personnel in > the Tornado tactical fighter. There is also a small USAF unit that trains > German Air Force pilots in the F-4. > John I. > Jenkins > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 18 14:20:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 09:20:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] web page Message-ID: <3CE61CDE.9616.6E55E8@localhost> I was browsing the web, and ran across a web page, http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Europe06.html about WWII, and saw that they had a couple pictures of B-17s. Noticed one of them, http://history.acusd.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics4/83061.jpg had a couple triangle-Cs . Interestingly they were flying next to a Triangle-P (384th) in a composite group. Picture was supposedly taken during Mar 44 Berlin mission. Can't quite make out the callsigns on the 303rd planes, but it looked like, PU-D, which was flown on Mar 6 in a composite group with the 384th by one of the members of this list. Thought it might be of interest. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 18 21:16:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:16:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] web page In-Reply-To: <3CE61CDE.9616.6E55E8@localhost> Message-ID: <3CE6541B.18968.11AA9F@localhost> Bill, That is a very interesting page. I was especially fascinated by the photo of the B-17 losing its tail as it is hit by a bomb from above. There are 3 photos showing it here: http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/air07.html Thanks! > I was browsing the web, and ran across a web page, > http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Europe06.html > about WWII, and saw that they had a couple pictures of B-17s. > Noticed one of them, > http://history.acusd.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics4/83061.jpg > had a couple triangle-Cs . Interestingly they were flying next > to a > Triangle-P (384th) in a composite group. Picture was supposedly > taken during Mar 44 Berlin mission. Can't quite make out the > callsigns on the 303rd planes, but it looked like, PU-D, which > was flown on Mar 6 in a composite group with the 384th by one of > the members of this list. Thought it might be of interest. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 19 00:38:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mark Walters) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:38:05 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd ? B-17 'Texas Revenger' Message-ID: <005301c1fec5$0f49ed00$2bec87d9@n9t6k4> Hi all I have a copy of a photograph of B-17E 41-9098 at Goose Bay in June/July 1942 just prior to the first flight of B-17s in the Bolero movement to the UK. At this time 41-9098 was assigned to the 303rd before its transfer to the 97th BG in late July 42 and the photo shows four aircraft lined up. One of the other aircraft in the photo may also be of the 303rd and bears the name on the nose 'Texas Revenger' - does anyone have recollections of an aircraft with this name in the 303rd ? All the best Mark Walters From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 20 17:07:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:07:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions from the film, Target for Today Message-ID: Hi list, Thanks to the generosity of Kevin Pearson I was able to watch the movie Target for Today over the weekend. (thanks again Kevin). I have a few questions that I hope you all can address. 1. I know what a wind-sock is and it's purpose. But I noticed in several clips of the control tower what appeared to be a beach ball hanging on the side. It looked like it could be lowered and raised. What is that ball for? 2. In past emails we have discussed that some of you took spare gun barrels with you. I noticed in the movie that as crews got off the trucks at their hardstands prior to the mission, some of the were carrying barrels or in some cases what appeared to be the entire gun mount. Weren't the guns in stalled by the ground crew or armorers? 3. I also noticed that some guns had a an attachment on the end that looked like, well a snout or something. What is it and why did only some barrels have this? I saw it most often on tail guns. 4. Upon returning to base, what color were the flares that signaled, wounded aboard? Where there other flares used on landing? If so, what for and what color and quantity? 5. Finally, the debriefing scenes. I know that some parts of the film were staged and rehearsed. But I was curious about the debriefings. For those of you who have seen the film and attended the debriefings, how realistic were they? Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 20 20:53:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:53:52 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions from the film, Target for Today References: Message-ID: <3CE9544F.56752B38@attglobal.net> Double red flares for a landing aircraft with wounded on board. Cheers! "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list, > Thanks to the generosity of Kevin Pearson I was able to watch the movie > Target for Today over the weekend. (thanks again Kevin). I have a few > questions that I hope you all can address. > > 1. I know what a wind-sock is and it's purpose. But I noticed in > several clips of the control tower what appeared to be a beach ball hanging > on the side. It looked like it could be lowered and raised. What is that > ball for? > 2. In past emails we have discussed that some of you took spare gun > barrels with you. I noticed in the movie that as crews got off the trucks > at their hardstands prior to the mission, some of the were carrying barrels > or in some cases what appeared to be the entire gun mount. Weren't the guns > in stalled by the ground crew or armorers? > 3. I also noticed that some guns had a an attachment on the end that > looked like, well a snout or something. What is it and why did only some > barrels have this? I saw it most often on tail guns. > 4. Upon returning to base, what color were the flares that signaled, > wounded aboard? Where there other flares used on landing? If so, what for > and what color and quantity? > 5. Finally, the debriefing scenes. I know that some parts of the film > were staged and rehearsed. But I was curious about the debriefings. For > those of you who have seen the film and attended the debriefings, how > realistic were they? > > Thanks! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 21 18:21:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:21:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Morning Briefings - Intel / Weather Officers Message-ID: Is there a 303rd member reading this that was a Intel or Weather officer who gave briefings for the BG? If so can you tell me what your role was and how your portion of the briefing went? I have watched the "rehearsed" version of TARGET FOR TODAY. The role of the Operations officer was brought out but the Intel/weather portion was lacking. Thank you. Greg Pierce 8th AFHS - WA Chapter E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 21 18:27:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:27:21 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions from the film, Target for Today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020521072721.008a4400@ilhawaii.net> Dave Tooley I always installed my own guns, as did the other gunners on our crew. We also too them out and cleaned them after a mission, Jim Walling Ball turret gunner At 11:07 AM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote: >Hi list, >Thanks to the generosity of Kevin Pearson I was able to watch the movie >Target for Today over the weekend. (thanks again Kevin). I have a few >questions that I hope you all can address. > >1. I know what a wind-sock is and it's purpose. But I noticed in >several clips of the control tower what appeared to be a beach ball hanging >on the side. It looked like it could be lowered and raised. What is that >ball for? >2. In past emails we have discussed that some of you took spare gun >barrels with you. I noticed in the movie that as crews got off the trucks >at their hardstands prior to the mission, some of the were carrying barrels >or in some cases what appeared to be the entire gun mount. Weren't the guns >in stalled by the ground crew or armorers? >3. I also noticed that some guns had a an attachment on the end that >looked like, well a snout or something. What is it and why did only some >barrels have this? I saw it most often on tail guns. >4. Upon returning to base, what color were the flares that signaled, >wounded aboard? Where there other flares used on landing? If so, what for >and what color and quantity? >5. Finally, the debriefing scenes. I know that some parts of the film >were staged and rehearsed. But I was curious about the debriefings. For >those of you who have seen the film and attended the debriefings, how >realistic were they? > >Thanks! >Dave > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 22 06:55:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:55:54 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] beachball Message-ID: <001e01c20155$5655b2a0$977e79c3@default> DEAR JIM. THE BEACHBALL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BEACH. YOU STILL FIND THEM ON THE ISLANDS ALONG THE NORTHCOAST OF HOLLAND,GERMANY AND DENMARK AND ARE MEANT TO SHOW, HOW STRONG THE GALE WILL BE. WAY IN THE TOP MEANS, STRONG GALE, SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE MEANS, REGULAR FORCE. WHEN THE BEACHBALL IS JUST DOWN, NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER. CHEERS HANS FROM HOLLAND. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 22 18:52:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:52:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gun barrel Message-ID: <000c01c201b9$669ae540$39bb9ace@mjpmtman> JIM W.--- I am aware that the guns were fired in bursts rather than a sustained firing. How many barrels did you "go through' during your tour? Did you receive a new barrel each mission.. I ask because when the 220 Swift came out [YEARS ago] the barrel would sometimes burn out in 1,000 to 1,100 rounds.[probably because it was reloaded for a higher velocity. It was advertised at 4000 feet per second] For some reason my memory told me the tail guns were different than the rest of the .50s.----checked Heavy Bombers.com---The photo of the tail guns on "Sally B" show what looks to be a bigger jacket on the barrels that are cut diagonally on the outside of the jacket. All of the other guns have the end of the barrels protruding beyond the cooling jacket. --was there a reason for that.?? Some times my memory plays tricks on me but DID I see some of the gunners with condoms on the ends of the barresls???---Maurice J. Paulk [Ignorant Supply Sgt] From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 22 20:35:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:35:05 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gun barrel In-Reply-To: <000c01c201b9$669ae540$39bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020522093505.008a8cf0@ilhawaii.net> Maurice, I fired short test bursts on each of my 36 missions(1 abort). Nothing else until my 36th, When we were hit by ME-262 jets and were under attack for almost 30 minutes. I have no idea how many rounds I fired, but one link chute was missing band the turret filled up with links to the point that they disconnected my heated suit. After kissing the ground when we got back and drinking two or three other guy's shots of rye at debriefing, I don't remember cleaning my guns, so I did not know what shape the gun barrels were in. Jim Walling At 12:52 PM 5/22/02 -0500, you wrote: >JIM W.--- I am aware that the guns were fired in bursts rather than a >sustained firing. How many barrels did you "go through' during your tour? >Did you receive a new barrel each mission.. I ask because when the 220 Swift >came out [YEARS ago] the barrel would sometimes burn out in 1,000 to 1,100 >rounds.[probably because it was reloaded for a higher velocity. It was >advertised >at 4000 feet per second] > >For some reason my memory told me the tail guns were different than the rest >of the .50s.----checked Heavy Bombers.com---The photo of the tail guns on >"Sally B" show what looks to be a bigger jacket on the barrels that are cut >diagonally on the outside of the jacket. All of the other guns have the end >of the barrels protruding beyond the cooling jacket. --was there a reason >for that.?? >Some times my memory plays tricks on me but DID I see some of the gunners >with > condoms on the ends of the barresls???---Maurice J. Paulk [Ignorant Supply >Sgt] > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 23 04:03:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (elana pfeifer) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:03:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C201DC.7DFE83E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found your website when I was doing research on my uncle, John Ercegovi= ch, a navigator on the Lady Fairweather, that was one of the first planes= shot down. We visited England this spring and fortunately with the help= of your website we visited Molesworth and the Cambridge cemetary and fou= nd my uncle's name on the Wall of the Missing. Thanks to Bill Owen as he= put us in touch with Bruce Henninger who graciously picked us up and bro= ught us to the cemetary and Molesworth to see the art collection and the = memeorial. I am happy to have the opportunity to become a member of this= website and hope to bring my mother, (John's sister) to the reunion. El= ana PfeiferGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://ex= plorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C201DC.7DFE83E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found your w= ebsite when I was doing research on my uncle, John Ercegovich, a navigato= r on the Lady Fairweather, that was one of the first planes shot down.&nb= sp; We visited England this spring and fortunately with the help of your = website we visited Molesworth and the Cambridge cemetary and found my unc= le's name on the Wall of the Missing.  Thanks to Bill Owen as he put= us in touch with Bruce Henninger who graciously picked us up and brought= us to the cemetary and Molesworth to see the art collection and the meme= orial.  I am happy to have the opportunity to become a member of thi= s website and hope to bring my mother, (John's sister) to the reunion.&nb= sp; Elana Pfeifer



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------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C201DC.7DFE83E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 24 19:18:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:18:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Morning Briefings - Intel / Weather Officers Message-ID: Greg: Here is a story written by "Stormy" Mondschein, a weather officer with the 339th FG at Fowlmere. I used it in the last "Rally Point." WWII WEATHER SERVICE IN SUPPORT OF THE 339TH FG AT FOWLMERE, U.K. Herman “Stormy” Mondschein 18th Weather Sq. Detachment When I arrived in the U.K. In April 1943, my initial service was at 8th Air Force HQ in Bushy Park, near London, for a period of about six months. I was then transferred to HQ 66th Fighter Wing in Sawston Hall, where I served as a T/Sgt. forecaster at the 18th Weather Sq. Detachment there. We served B/Gen. Murray Woodbury (the Wing Commander) and his staff. I had briefed him on numerous occasions, but the most memorable one was the day before he called a fighter-bomber low-level strike on coastal targets in the fall of 1943. Gen. Woodbury came into our weather office and told me, the only forecaster on duty that day, that the Wing’s fighter units had been turned over to him by 8th Fighter Command, and to pick his own mission and targets. He asked ME to select the coastal area for him, which would have less than 5/1Oths cloud cover and good visibility below 5000 feet for the next day, with light surface winds, if possible. I studied the charts and picked an area on the NW coast of France. He departed after thanking me, and ordered a low-level strike the next day. After digesting post-strike reports, Gen. Woodbury returned to the weather station and complimented me on the part I had played in a successful mission. Upon transfer to Fowlmere in March 1944 as the Weather Station Chief, my primary job was to create a fully functional weather station with our staff of six other enlisted men, weather observers, and forecasters, under the command of 1st Lt. John W. Mason, Jr. (at a later date we obtained two additional weather officers). We had just four empty walls on the lower floor of the concrete control tower, devoid of any furnishings or equipment. We had about one month to get ready for the arrival of a P-51 fighter group from the states. Equipment was ordered and delivered. It was installed as expeditiously as possible. We received blank weather maps of the U.K.and Europe, weather textbooks and manuals, weather balloons, hydrogen cylinders, theodolite, etc. We had to construct the weather map and data display furniture from scratch. We were most fortunate to have a bunch of eager beavers, including a good carpenter, Sgt. George Walker, to help with this rush job. As a result, we even had to make a few “moonlight requisitions" over the fence that surrounded the base lumber pile. By the grace of God and a great bunch of guys, the Base Weather Station of the 18th Weather Sq. Detachment of AAF-378 was alive and functioning when the 339th arrived. The Group brought with them their Staff Weather Officer, 1st Lt. Jim Norwood. Our function was to provide the data, weather observations, forecasts, and charts to enable him to function in his capacity as principal advisor to the group and squadron commanders on weather related matters. His was the staff function and ours was the operational or line function. Needless to say, neither of us operated in a vacuum, and weather discussions were lively and stimulating. He and our weather officers conducted the formal Group weather briefings for combat operations and post-flight debriefings. Detachment weather officers and enlisted forecasters conducted oral briefings for other flights, and for visiting pilots who were flying cross-country and needed the results of these briefings to be entered on their operational clearance forms. Our signatures indicated approval or disapproval of the flight plan based solely on weather factors; at takeoff, en route, destination and alternate airports. It was an awesome responsibility, and we always “sweated it out” until we determined that the particular flight we had approved had been safely completed in weather conditions that were often less than favorable. Our base weather station was open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, staffed with a minimum of one observer and one forecaster on duty at all times. When I was promoted from M/Sgt., to Warrant Officer (j.g.) in Sept. 44, I then became authorized to conduct the pre-flight combat mission weather briefings and post-flight debriefings. This gave us a bit more flexibility, as it took nine people at a minimum to man our facility round the clock. We had only ten to also cover leave, illness and extra busy times, with additional help provided by the Staff Weather Officer. It was often a tussle with the units to which we were attached for administrative purposes, the Service Squadron until VEDay, and the 505th after, to keep from performing other duties, such as K.P., guard duty, Officer of the Day, barracks inspections, roll calls, etc. Our mandate was weather duty only, and because of the rotating shifts we worked, we could easily be sleeping during normal day-time duty hours when barracks inspections occurred. We did prevail, however, but we had to always be alert to avert such duties that would threaten our ability to provide continuous weather service. Two of our three teletype machines provided weather observations at least hourly from stations all over the U.K., supplemented by less frequent, though vital, ship observations. We also received frequent, irregular observations from occupied Europe and Germany, which we knew had to have life/death overtones at their origins and transmission points. All this was supplemented by routine, standard weather reconnaissance flights which included “dropsonde” data as well. These are upper air observations of temperature, pressure, humidity, and wind, all vital for effective weather forecasting. Dropsondes were attached to small parachutes and dropped from aircraft in flight. Other special weather recon flights were ordered hours before combat missions using aircraft such as the British Mosquito, piloted by men who were also trained weather observers. Our 339th pilots were also called upon locally to check on cloud thicknesses, visibilities, icing, etc., prior to missions. Was our job made easier because of this variety of data? Yes and no. For one, these data by their varied, non-uniform nature and manner of acquisition, were non-synoptic, i.e. they were not simultaneous. So when they were hand plotted on a surface weather map, much of the data could be 6 to 1 8 hours old along side observations just an hour old, and at varied levels above the ground. Also, we were all recently trained weather specialists, in a new and unfamiliar area of the world, trying to provide extremely complex weather services primarily for combat air operations. We are all familiar with the vital role weather personnel played in the selection of D-Day by Gen. Eisenhower, as well as the Battle of the Bulge by German weather personnel, and the associated grounding of our own air forces. In the latter, we had a prolonged period in Dec 1944 with widespread dense fog and low stratus cloud over the U.K. and NW Europe, caused by warm air aloft over snow cover, so we could not give air support to our ground forces. When the end of this unfavorable weather pattern was in sight, according to our predictions as well as those of Weather Central, all commands were alerted to prepare for the counter attacks, which turned the tide from near defeat to victory, undoubtedly saving many Allied lives. The impact and responsibility for go or no-go decisions and tactics made by command personnel, in part based on weather assessments, was heavy and awesome for combat operations. For routine and training flights we could recommend go or no-go by signing or not signing an operational clearance form. But whatever the nature of the air operation, it had great impact on us all, and we took our work seriously. It was always a life or death proposition and we provided the best weather service we could, under primitive (compared to the late 1990’s) and very trying conditions. We took, and still have great pride in the vital role played by weather personnel in support of our very brave combat crews who represented us on the firing line. This was our day to day concern, which lead to the ultimate reward—preservation of our freedom. >From: "Pierce, Gregory S" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Morning Briefings - Intel / Weather Officers >Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:21:01 -0700 > > >Is there a 303rd member reading this that was a Intel or Weather officer >who gave briefings for the BG? > >If so can you tell me what your role was and how your portion of the >briefing went? >I have watched the "rehearsed" version of TARGET FOR TODAY. >The role of the Operations officer was brought out but the Intel/weather >portion was lacking. > >Thank you. > > >Greg Pierce >8th AFHS - WA Chapter >E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 05:40:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:40:08 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day Message-ID: <125.1122dcab.2a21c128@aol.com> --part1_125.1122dcab.2a21c128_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wanted tell all of the vets out there that I'm thinking of you and of the ones who never came home on this Memorial Day. Heidi Girman --part1_125.1122dcab.2a21c128_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wanted tell all of the vets out there that I'm thinking of you and of the ones who never came home on this Memorial Day.
Heidi Girman
--part1_125.1122dcab.2a21c128_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 07:37:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:37:48 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day References: <125.1122dcab.2a21c128@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CF082BC.26FEBF27@attglobal.net> --------------24014461435DA38A9CBF8CE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Heidi ... WCH Hydeho13@aol.com wrote: > I just wanted tell all of the vets out there that I'm > thinking of you and of the ones who never came home on > this Memorial Day. > Heidi Girman --------------24014461435DA38A9CBF8CE6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Heidi ...

WCH

Hydeho13@aol.com wrote:

I just wanted tell all of the vets out there that I'm thinking of you and of the ones who never came home on this Memorial Day.
Heidi Girman
--------------24014461435DA38A9CBF8CE6-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 07:52:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:52:51 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] first missions Berlin Mar. 44 Message-ID: Bill Heller, I am just reading the book "Tails to Noses Over Berlin", by Ray Bowden. I couldn't help but notice that you were quoted there about some of the first missions, and aborts. You felt that some of the first missions were planned, and aborted, but it made all of you eager to get there and get the job done. Care to elaborate for the rest of us? What were those first missions like? Glad to see you made it of course. So many of your compatriots didn't, during that month of March, '44. Also, on this Memorial day, I wish to pay my respects to all of you that fought the air battles of the 8AF. I bow my head in reverence. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 15:39:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 07:39:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day In-Reply-To: <125.1122dcab.2a21c128@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CF09139.9721.401CCDD@localhost> > I just wanted tell all of the vets out there that I'm thinking > of you and of the ones who never came home on this Memorial Day. > Heidi Girman Let me add my appreciation to Heidi's - to all the Veterans who served and to those who didn't come home - Thank you all so much for your sacrifice for our freedom. The cemetery a few blocks from our home is draped in flags and it brings a tear to my eye as I drive past. Thank you. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 18:37:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 10:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #604 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020526160202.68297536F5@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20020526173750.16894.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> I wish also to add my own "Thank You" to all you 303'ers. I was stationed nine months at Molesworth a few years back on Reserve recall, and many was the time that I walked out to where the flight line used to be and ponder the fact that where I was standing was the last free soil that so many would stand upon. Moreover, I pondered many times how it would have felt to lift off from this place and not know if it was to be the last free soil I would stand on. You men say time and again that you were only doing your job. Maybe so. But is was a monumental job and you did it better than any group of men could have been expected to do. My hat is forever off to each of you, flight and ground personnel alike, and we who subsequently grew up free will never be able to give you proper recompense. Regards, Commander Chuck Golden, USNR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 19:53:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:53:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] first missions Berlin Mar. 44 References: Message-ID: <3CF12F0F.3DDE4497@attglobal.net> Gordy ... The only thing that I can elaborate on is the very thrill of FINALLY going to Berlin. However, I still think that the number of times we were briefed, suited up, got engines running and THEN had a SCRUB ...was all a bit of a very intelligent RUSE! No one can ever imagine the thoughts we all had if we were EVER to go to Berlin. Visions of the Luftwaffe coming up to the LAST MAN and things like that. Therefore I PESONALLY (and this has NO basis) .. but I personally believe the higher ups did this on purpose to get us so ready that we WANTED to go to Berlin! I have no other things with which to enlighten you. Yes, it was a serious war and it HAD to be won. Only a true history buff can imagine what it would have been like had we NOT won. I mourn yet today the fine young men with whom I had breakfast, chatted and joked ... only to see them blow up in mid air or get hit badly by fighter attacks. And then ... no more. Let us all give thanks on this Memorial Day that we have a valued military and let us hope we KEEP it that way. Always strong. Ever vigilant. Cheers! WCH Gordy Alton wrote: > Bill Heller, > I am just reading the book "Tails to Noses Over Berlin", by Ray Bowden. > I couldn't help but notice that you were quoted there about some of the > first missions, and aborts. > You felt that some of the first missions were planned, and aborted, but > it made all of you eager to get there and get the job done. > Care to elaborate for the rest of us? What were those first missions > like? > Glad to see you made it of course. So many of your compatriots didn't, > during that month of March, '44. > Also, on this Memorial day, I wish to pay my respects to all of you that > fought the air battles of the 8AF. > I bow my head in reverence. > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. > V8K2W3 > gunnerson@telus.net > "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those > who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." > ************************************* From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 26 20:10:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:10:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #604 - 4 msgs References: <20020526173750.16894.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CF13340.D566A5C@attglobal.net> Thank you, Commander ... WCH Chuck Golden wrote: > I wish also to add my own "Thank You" to all you > 303'ers. I was stationed nine months at Molesworth a > few years back on Reserve recall, and many was the > time that I walked out to where the flight line used > to be and ponder the fact that where I was standing > was the last free soil that so many would stand upon. > Moreover, I pondered many times how it would have felt > to lift off from this place and not know if it was to > be the last free soil I would stand on. You men say > time and again that you were only doing your job. > Maybe so. But is was a monumental job and you did it > better than any group of men could have been expected > to do. My hat is forever off to each of you, flight > and ground personnel alike, and we who subsequently > grew up free will never be able to give you proper > recompense. > > Regards, > Commander Chuck Golden, USNR > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 03:57:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 22:57:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <175.8dce79f.2a22fa94@aol.com> Thank you Commander Some of those thoughts crossed my mind 32 times and were some of the reasons I knelt down and kissed the tarmac at Greiner Field NH in Sept '45 after a return flight across the Atlantic to the ZOI As they say nowdays, I'd been there and done that.. LeRoy Christenson 359th BSqdn, 303rd BG (H) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 04:05:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:05:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Berlin Message-ID: Thanks Bill you say it so well surprised B. Runnels hasn't replied in a while. Seeing his name on this screen and wouldn't you just 2 weeks ago I sat across from him at lunch of the Minn. Chapter of the 8th AFHS I flew with Owen Knutzen ,of Omaha and now Sun Lakes, AZ LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 05:18:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 22:18:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day Message-ID: <004301c20535$9e462d40$877ae03f@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C20503.52B79940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all, those still here and those gone on, who have given so much for all of us. Bill Hoyt and family ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C20503.52B79940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to all, those still here and those = gone=20 on, who have given so much for all of us.
 
Bill Hoyt and family
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C20503.52B79940-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 05:19:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 21:19:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <175.8dce79f.2a22fa94@aol.com> Message-ID: Leroy and all the rest, You fellows did your J.O.B. and came home, and thank the Lord for that. We of the next generation appreciate it, although some don't know why. I feel a little bit embarrassed sometimes, when I talk to those of my age (47) and younger. They don't know or don't care. They just assume things have always been like this. I impress upon my children that it wasn't always so. They are some of the few of the 'next' generation that know that their Grandpa spent two years in prison camp for a reason. That reason is their freedom today. I think the events of the last year or so have made them appreciate it even more. My oldest daughter is engaged to a kind, gentle, and loving man from Laos. I never would have thought I would be one to accept a mixed marriage, especially when it hits so close to home. Having met this man, though, and talked with him, I have a new respect for him and all he has gone through. He grew up in a country racked with war, with no civil liberties, and he fled as a very young man. He has done well for himself, and is a kind and loving person. He has seen things, and endured things, that I never will. What I am getting at, is that this world has at least a half a chance to be a better place if men like him, and the veterans who fought our wars of the past, can live through things and make the world a better place. You older vets have proved it is possible. For that, I give you all my respect and admiration. By the way, my daughter Krista and her fiance' Jessie are going to make this man a proud Grandpa at the end of August. I'm too young to be a Grandpa....lol. The best of the Memorial Day to all you vets. Please rest assured that there are some of us here today that will never let you be forgotten. I see now that I will have to reach down a couple of more generations to make sure that is true for many years to come. My Grandson will know what his great-grandfather did. I will see to that. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of RoyAudry651@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 7:57 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Thank you Commander Some of those thoughts crossed my mind 32 times and were some of the reasons I knelt down and kissed the tarmac at Greiner Field NH in Sept '45 after a return flight across the Atlantic to the ZOI As they say nowdays, I'd been there and done that.. LeRoy Christenson 359th BSqdn, 303rd BG (H) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 08:25:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ANNE GRANT) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:25:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day ... Message-ID: <003c01c2054f$bfe66d60$60cfd03f@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C20515.1294F800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On this Memorial Day, I am also saying THANK YOU with a special=20 prayer for all of you, on this 303rd Talk-site, and for all of the men = and=20 women that are now serving in the armed forces, fighting to preserve=20 our freedom. I'm also saying a very special prayer for all of those that are no = longer=20 with us, but remain in our hearts forever ... you may be gone, but we = will never forget the gift of freedom that you fought so hard to give us. Anne Grant (Mrs Gilbert D. Grant) ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C20515.1294F800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On this Memorial = Day, I am=20 also saying THANK YOU with a special
prayer for all of you, on this = 303rd Talk-site, and for all of the men = and
women that are now serving in the armed = forces, fighting to preserve =
our freedom.
    I'm also saying a = very special=20 prayer for all of those that are no longer =
with us,=20 but remain in our hearts forever = ... you may=20 be gone, but we will
never forget the gift of freedom that = you fought so=20 hard to give us.
    Anne Grant (Mrs = Gilbert D.=20 Grant)
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C20515.1294F800-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 07:15:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:15:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <3CF1CF0C.43732052@attglobal.net> Gordy ... I have been married to the lovliest of women for 56 years .... she is Korean, born in the USA, and the niece of the late President Syngman Rhee. When we intermarried it just was not done. We, however, being who we were, endured nothing but love and respect from all we met. Embrace your new son-in-law. The Oriental trait is a good one regardless of the fact we had to kick a little Oriental butt now and then. Cheers! WCH Gordy Alton wrote: > Leroy and all the rest, > You fellows did your J.O.B. and came home, and thank the Lord for that. > We of the next generation appreciate it, although some don't know why. I > feel a little bit embarrassed sometimes, when I talk to those of my age > (47) and younger. They don't know or don't care. They just assume things > have always been like this. I impress upon my children that it wasn't > always so. They are some of the few of the 'next' generation that know > that their Grandpa spent two years in prison camp for a reason. That > reason is their freedom today. I think the events of the last year or so > have made them appreciate it even more. > My oldest daughter is engaged to a kind, gentle, and loving man from > Laos. I never would have thought I would be one to accept a mixed > marriage, especially when it hits so close to home. Having met this man, > though, and talked with him, I have a new respect for him and all he has > gone through. He grew up in a country racked with war, with no civil > liberties, and he fled as a very young man. He has done well for himself, > and is a kind and loving person. He has seen things, and endured things, > that I never will. > What I am getting at, is that this world has at least a half a chance to > be a better place if men like him, and the veterans who fought our wars > of the past, can live through things and make the world a better place. > You older vets have proved it is possible. For that, I give you all my > respect and admiration. > By the way, my daughter Krista and her fiance' Jessie are going to make > this man a proud Grandpa at the end of August. I'm too young to be a > Grandpa....lol. > The best of the Memorial Day to all you vets. Please rest assured that > there are some of us here today that will never let you be forgotten. I > see now that I will have to reach down a couple of more generations to > make sure that is true for many years to come. My Grandson will know what > his great-grandfather did. I will see to that. > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. > V8K2W3 > gunnerson@telus.net > "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those > who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." > ************************************* > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of RoyAudry651@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 7:57 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > > Thank you Commander > Some of those thoughts crossed my mind 32 times and were some of the > reasons > I knelt down and kissed the tarmac at Greiner Field NH in Sept '45 after > a > return flight across the Atlantic to the ZOI > As they say nowdays, I'd been there and done that.. > LeRoy Christenson > 359th BSqdn, 303rd BG (H) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 14:47:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 09:47:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New subcriber Message-ID: <001b01c20585$05dc2d20$6401a8c0@desktop1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C20563.7E983280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am a new subscriber to the list ( although I have been checking in = on the Guestbook on the web site from time to time.)=20 My father was MOS A&P, Crew Chief and Flexible Gunnery in the 360th, = and served at both Moleswoth and Casablanca. Primarily as a mechanic, he = worked with Pappy Melton and several other Crew Chiefs as well. Lady = Luck and Belle of San Joaquin are among aircraft he maintained. Dad = passed away in 1982 so I no longer have the opportunity to add much new = information to the group but I will contribute where I can. PS As I posted on the Guestbook, I am deeply grateful for all that this = organization *does*, as it continues to make a valuable contribution to = this very day. A class act indeed. =20 Bill Conklin =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C20563.7E983280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
   I am a new subscriber to = the list (=20 although I have been checking in on the Guestbook on the web site from = time to=20 time.)
 
   My father was MOS A&P, = Crew Chief=20 and Flexible Gunnery in the 360th, and served at both Moleswoth and = Casablanca. Primarily as a mechanic, he worked with Pappy Melton = and=20 several other Crew Chiefs as well. Lady Luck and Belle of San = Joaquin=20 are among aircraft he maintained. Dad passed away in 1982 so I no longer = have=20 the opportunity to add much new information to the group but I will = contribute where I can.
 
PS  As I posted on the Guestbook, = I am deeply=20 grateful for all that this organization *does*, as it continues to make = a=20 valuable contribution to this very day. A class act=20 indeed.  
 
Bill=20 Conklin      
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C20563.7E983280-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 27 16:30:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:30:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Doolittle Raid +60 References: <16.1ddd3c08.29f1daaf@aol.com> Message-ID: <005401c20593$6a4603e0$02000003@r1m1z6> Sorry 'bout the delay in reply. It took a while to find the treasure. As I re-read General Doolittle's letter to me it doesn't seem so significant, except to me...to me it's a wonderful, human response to the admiration of a bunch of young men and women who still didn't know sacrifice of the magnitude he, his raiders and his entire generation made. May 11 1992 John D. Alger SOS Class 92-C PSC 1 Box 65 Maxwell AFB, Alabama Dear Captain Alger, Thank you and your fellow class members for the thoughtful words of recent date. The entire Doolittle Raiders Association appreciates the remembrances of our 50th Anniversary. Thanks also for your willingness to lead this country into the 21st century. Every good wish. Very sincerely, J.H. Doolittle ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Doolittle Raid +60 > why don't you post it for all to read his sentiments > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 28 04:02:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 23:02:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #605/comments Message-ID: <1bc.3152871.2a244d32@aol.com> --part1_1bc.3152871.2a244d32_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, First, many thanks Commander...I would suggest that everyone who has a first book "Might In Flight", should read pages 366 and 367. That mission was a turning point for the 8th Air Force. A very heavy loss of 69 bombers and 11 fighters dimmed the success. That was about the time Gen. Twining was sending secret letters to Gen. Spatz about daylight bombing not being so good. Reference a movie made by the British "Whispers In The Air". I sent Harry Gobrecht a copy, the information will make your hair stand on end. cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_1bc.3152871.2a244d32_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
First, many thanks Commander...I would suggest that everyone who has a first book "Might In Flight", should read pages 366 and 367. That mission was a turning point for the 8th Air Force. A very heavy loss of 69 bombers and 11 fighters dimmed the success. That was about the time Gen. Twining was sending secret letters to Gen. Spatz about daylight bombing not being so good. Reference a movie made by the British "Whispers In The Air". I sent Harry Gobrecht a copy, the information will make your hair stand on end.
cheers
Bill Bergeron
--part1_1bc.3152871.2a244d32_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 29 19:04:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mark Walters) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 19:04:36 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wright Cyclone Vs Studebaker Engines Message-ID: <000501c2073b$4fad0840$e8d786d9@n9t6k4> Hi all I have heard that many pilots considered the Studebaker engine a good deal less reliable than the Wright Cyclones. For example, Col. Bob Morgan, pilot of the Memphis Belle, was quite clear in pointing out to his chief mechanic that no Studebaker was to be attached to his plane if a replacement was needed. Can any of you verify the unreliability of the Studebaker's and what were your experiences of flying on these engines ? Thanks Mark Walters (Powys, Wales, UK) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 00:49:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 23:49:07 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wright Cyclone Vs Studebaker Engines Message-ID: <20020529234908.IKCU13408.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Currently the Lone Star Flight Museuems B17 Thunderdbird has four of Studebakers. I have not noticed any problems nor have I heard anything discouraging about them from our dedicated mechanics. I have been a passenger on several cross country trips in last few years and have never noticed any anomilies in there operation. Pherhaps these are later models and have ahd the bugs worked out. Of course they are also extremely well taken care of to an extent which may not have been possible under war time conditions. Respectfully Steve Siegmund > Hi all > > I have heard that many pilots considered the Studebaker engine a good deal > less reliable than the Wright Cyclones. For example, Col. Bob Morgan, pilot > of the Memphis Belle, was quite clear in pointing out to his chief mechanic > that no Studebaker was to be attached to his plane if a replacement was > needed. Can any of you verify the unreliability of the Studebaker's and what > were your experiences of flying on these engines ? > > Thanks > Mark Walters (Powys, Wales, UK) > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 02:24:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (elana pfeifer) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 20:24:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2074E.DACF7DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was fortunate to come across your wonderful web site when I was trying = to obtain information on my Uncle John Ercegovich, a navigator on the La= dy Fairweather, one of the first planes shot down from Molesworth. Our f= amily had only received information in 1942 that he was missing in action= and never got any other information. Through your site and all of the w= onderful people we learned his name is on the Wall of the Missing at the = American Cambridge Cemetary in England. Fortunately we visited there thi= s spring and had a wonderful tour with Bruce Henninger. I am happy to be= come a member of this site and hope to take my mom to the reunion in Bran= son. Elana Pfeifer, MinnesotaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer d= ownload : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2074E.DACF7DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was fortunat= e to come across your wonderful web site when I was trying to obtain info= rmation on my Uncle John Ercegovich,  a navigator on the Lady Fairwe= ather, one of the first planes shot down from Molesworth.  Our famil= y had only received information in 1942 that he was missing in action and= never got any other information.  Through your site and all of the = wonderful people we learned his name is on the Wall of the Missing at the= American Cambridge Cemetary in England.  Fortunately we visited the= re this spring and had a wonderful tour with Bruce Henninger.  I am = happy to become a member of this site and hope to take my mom to the reun= ion in Branson.  Elana Pfeifer, Minnesota



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------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2074E.DACF7DF0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 02:43:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 18:43:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly Message-ID: THEY CAME TO MADINGLEY It chanced I wandered Hardwick way >From Cambridge on a sunny day By pleasant lanes in early May And here I parked an hour to stay. Then o'er the trees against the sky I saw Old Glory flying high And remembered nearby lay War Dead of the U.S.A. T'was Madingley I'd chose to stay Where often aged couples stray And at a grave to stand and pray. Maybe o'er their only son And clasp the medal that he won As he was on his fateful way To come to Madingley to stay. He may have come from Santa Fe. He may have known the Great White Way. Some came who knew Pacific spray Blowing in from 'Frisco Bay'. They came from North, East, South and West, Certain their own state was best. Reckless, too, with love or pay Then they came to Madingley to stay. By various paths they made their way, To come to Madingley to stay. Some bombed Schweinfurt in the day, And, in air-combat's lethal fray, A bullet does not ask what race, Not even colour of a face. And some could fall to 'Friendly' stray, Then come to Madingley to stay And these at Madingley do stay. Are very much the same as they. Our Brits in France or in Maylay. And "Senseless slaughter" some may say. But such are easy words to speak For Belsen's chimney ceased to reek Due to young men such as they Who came to Madingley to stay. Oh do not let the Dead March play, O'er these at Madingley do stay. For they were young and old-style gay. Play their music of the day, Tunes of Dorsey, songs of Bing, Let them hear Glenn Miller's swing. Then too the crosses well may sway With those at Madingley do stay. Although, in truth, those boys don't stay. I've 'Knowledge' and I hereby say The empty bodies are not "They" Below in that cold Cambridge clay. Such happy souls don't stick around In that well-tailored burial ground, But you be sure they see you pray And pray for you, as you for they. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 04:16:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 23:16:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly Message-ID: <118.1234d276.2a26f377@aol.com> very true. thanks. author????? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 04:52:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 20:52:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly In-Reply-To: <118.1234d276.2a26f377@aol.com> Message-ID: Author unknown, Spec, at least to me. If anyone knows who wrote it, please let us all know. I will post it if found. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of IBSPEC@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 8:16 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly very true. thanks. author????? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 07:30:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 02:30:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wright Cyclone Vs Studebaker Engines Message-ID: <90.268c5c77.2a272117@aol.com> Hi All, As far as the undersigned is concerned the Wright, Studebaker, and Buick engines on the B17s were basically equal and equally reliable. The way we had to treat them made me wonder how any of them held up as well and lasted as many hours as they did. My opinion: No pilot could tell the difference in their operation. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 12:58:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 06:58:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction References: Message-ID: <002401c207d1$5b58c9e0$6568db40@billowen> Elana, welcome to the forum. I'm sure that you will enjoy the exchanges posted here. If you have questions please don't hesitate to ask them....someone will come up with an answer. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "elana pfeifer" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction I was fortunate to come across your wonderful web site when I was trying to obtain information on my Uncle John Ercegovich, a navigator on the Lady Fairweather, one of the first planes shot down from Molesworth. Our family had only received information in 1942 that he was missing in action and never got any other information. Through your site and all of the wonderful people we learned his name is on the Wall of the Missing at the American Cambridge Cemetary in England. Fortunately we visited there this spring and had a wonderful tour with Bruce Henninger. I am happy to become a member of this site and hope to take my mom to the reunion in Branson. Elana Pfeifer, MinnesotaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 17:28:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:28:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly Message-ID: Inscribed in Mosaic in the ceilng at the chapel at Madingley Cemetary: “In proud and grateful memory of those men of the U.S. Army Air Force and who from these friendly isles flew their final flights and met their God. They knew not the hour the day or the manner of their passing. When far from home they were called to join that heroic band of airman who have gone before. May they rest in peace.” Gordy: Note correct spelling of Madingley. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 30 17:38:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:38:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two questions Message-ID: 1. How many ground personnel were assigned to each Heavy bomber? I know there were specialty sections on station like sheet metal, propellor shop, etc., but how many ground crewmen were personally responsible for one bomber? 2. Assuming no damage, how many hours would an engine last before having to swap it out for a new one? I'm sure many factors came into play, but in general, how many hours? (Before you chastise me, Bill Heller, for being a "wanna be" for asking about anything in general, please let some of the others answer first.) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 31 00:06:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:06:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Wright vs Studebaker Message-ID: I have no particular knowledge of each specific engine mentioned. However, I have been in the aviation manufacturing business for 23 years and am currently an FAA manufacturing inspector. This I do know, which undoubtedly had an effect on the quality of parts in the war effort: When a company and it's workforce develop, market, and perfect something over time- such as an engine. Many invaluable tricks are learned. Many aspects of manufacturing are more the art and skill of workers than written design and procedure. This art and skill is learned over time. Much of it becomes instinct. Some things just can't be put on a blueprint. Because it was necessary for America's war effort, companies provided all the design and manufacturing information to other companies so that larger quantities could be manufactured. What the receiving companies did not have was that skill, art, and instinct. I am sure the B-24s built by Henry Ford were noticeably different compared to those built by Consolidated- both on the ground and their feel in flight. The Ford employees were car builders, not airplane builders. They had to learn many new things. I suppose an understandable example would be to write down complete instructions how to drive a car or pilot an airplane, then give those instructions to someone that has never done it. Obviously, that person will not drive or fly as good as a veteran even though they have all the necessary instructions. I know that balancing a crankshaft for an airplane cannot be described in writing. It is an art and is all mental. A man that balances crankshafts just has a feel for where to grind on that crankshaft to remove metal so that it will spin true. That's my two cents..................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 31 01:25:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:25:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wright vs. Studebaker Message-ID: <102.15de457d.2a281d13@aol.com> My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24J. I remember asking him about which engine he thought was the best, the Wright or Pratt-Whitney and he said the Wright engines had a tendency to catch fire so the AAF switched to Pratt-Whitney and the problem was sovlved but that was on B-24, and B-17 bombers. the opposite may have been true on B-17s. Terry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 31 02:03:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:03:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] They Came to Maddingly Message-ID: <38.28a323ea.2a2825fc@aol.com> greatly sensitively structurally compacted for all to appreciate it's human contribution of sentiments for that life span of so many in warfare. cheers. for putting on chat line 303rd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 31 03:00:42 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 22:00:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two questions Message-ID: <10d.12fac6ec.2a28334a@aol.com> Kevin, Don't be to hard on poor old Bill Heller. Remember he is probably past 50 and those old folks get things mixed up a bit sometimes. I hope some crew chief answers question number 1 for you. I just don't remember but I would guess about 5 or so not counting the specialists. Number 2. Before someone gets after me I'm going to say between 400 and 500 hours on the average. Now remember a lot of engines were changed because of battle damage and that could happen on their first mission Best wishes, Jack