359th - TIBBLES

Greetings from Hans Reusink = hans.reusink@planet.nl<= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C1D183.8FBF89A0-- From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Mar 22 12:37:52 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:37:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Foggia, Italy Message-ID: <1e.2528249f.29cc7fa0@aol.com> Ford, my dad was in the 15th AF near Cerngolia, Italy. He told me one time flak hit the plane in front of him and that it went into the plance next to it. He almost shot down a P-51 because some silly flight leader lead his flight into my dad's bomber formation, which you never were suppose to do. He had the leader in his sights and then realized it was not an ME109. Terry From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Mar 22 18:23:33 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:23:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen Message-ID: Ford and all the rest: The 8th AF lost bombers all the way to the very end of the war, not just until March. Yes, the Luftwaffe had been systematically disembowled, but they made an effort until the bitter end and contiued to be successful in downing the Heavies, even if only one or two at a time, but the fact reamins, Heavies and their crews were lost until the very end. Here is one of the best stories I have found on what would be the last mission for many Bomb Groups. And there were losses. This was written by my very good friend Lowell Getz, a retired psychology professor from the University of Illinois, Campaign Urbana. As with all of Lowell's stories, it is meticulously researched to the infinite detail. Don't let the 91st in the title throw you, he mentions several Bomb Groups in the story, including crews from the 303rd, like No.300 ("Fancy Pantz"),Lt. Gerald S. Hodges' crew. It even shows the SNAFU principal was still at work on one of the final missions of the war. Enjoy! Kevin The Last Mission of the 91st Pandemonium Over Pilsen: The Forgotten Final Mission By Lowell L. Getz. Copyright 1997. All rights reserved By mid April 1945 the war in Europe was winding down rapidly. The Soviets were fighting in the suburbs of Berlin, and had occupied much of the eastern region of Germany to the north and south of the city. From the west, American and British forces were moving swiftly in a broad front across central and southern Germany. General Patton's Third Army was closing on the Czechoslovakian border. It was obvious to all that the final collapse of the German ground forces was only a matter of days. Still, the air war was continuing unabated. Heavy bomber missions were being flown almost every day. However, substantive strategic targets were becoming fewer and fewer. Most heavy industrial plants were either in Allied hands or lay in ruins. The rail transportation system was in shambles. There was little opportunity for the Germans to move war materials that were being produced to their collapsing front line forces. The German fighter command was ineffective. Although a large number of fighter aircraft were available, many of them Me-262 jet fighters, there were neither enough experienced pilots nor adequate fuel supply to put sufficient numbers of aircraft in the air to disrupt our bomber formations. Allied fighters controlled the air over Europe. Anti-aircraft defenses, on the other hand, were potentially effective around the few remaining targets. German gunners were capable of throwing up large quantities of accurate anti-aircraft fire. The 8th Air Force was therefore faced with the problem of identifying targets of sufficient strategic importance to warrant risking lives of the airmen. One of the few major industrial plants not yet damaged by allied bombing was the Skoda Armament plant at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. Although long a potential strategic target, it had not been bombed because of its location within a Czech city. The Skoda plant produced tanks, heavy guns and ammunition. While some of these materials were being sent directly to the front, most of the production would not reach the front in time to have an effect on the allied advances. Therefore, the Skoda plant did not seem a target worthy of the risk. However, other factors came into consideration when evaluating the priority of the Skoda plant for targeting. By Spring 1945, it had become obvious to the Western Allies that the Soviets were positioning themselves to lay political claim to as much of post-war Eastern Europe and Germany as possible. Bickering and lack of cooperation on the part of the Soviet negotiators over plans for governance of the liberated countries of Eastern Europe and of occupied Germany had raised the specter of the coming "Cold War" in the minds of many at the higher political levels in England and the United States. It was also assumed all usable industrial machinery would be stripped from factories in occupied territories and shipped back to the Soviet Union to rebuild her postwar industry. This industrial capacity would be put to use in strengthening the military posturing against the Western Allies. Destruction of the Skoda plant would prevent usage of its industrial machinery by the Soviets. Concern was also growing over what would happen when the main forces of the approaching Soviet and Western armies came together. Some feared that the Russians may keep driving westward to ensure their perceived territorial prerogatives. A bombing mission in strength that deep in Europe, combined with other strikes, would provide a show of force as to the air might of the Western Allies. Although the mission request came from General Eisenhower at SHAEF, the above political factors most likely weighed heavily in the decision that resulted in Field Order No. 696. The Field Order was sent out from the 8th Air Force at 2323 hours on 24 April, laying on a mission to the Skoda Armament plant at Pilsen the next day. One sticky problem needed to be resolved in this decision. There were approximately 40,000 men and women employed by the Skoda plant. These workers were primarily Czech civilians and conscripted (slave) laborers. The death of innocent Czech workers would not do much to foster post-war good will between eastern Europeans and the Western Allies. To reduce the potential of civilian deaths, the night before the BBC had begun broadcasting warnings to the Czech workers that a strike on Pilsen was imminent and that they should stay away from the Skoda plant. On the morning of the 25th of April Allied Headquarters released the following warning over the BBC: "Allied bombers are out in great strength today. Their destination is the Skoda works. Skoda workers, get out and stay out until the afternoon." This was the only time a warning of a target had been issued ahead of the mission. Field Order 696 sent eight Groups of B-17s of the 1st Air Division to Pilsen. Ten Groups of B-24s of the 2nd Air Division were targeted for rail centers at Salzburg, Bad Reichenhall, Hallstein, and Trauenstein. Nine Groups of B-17s in the 3rd Air Division would drop food supplies to several German-occupied Dutch cities during the afternoon of the 25th. The mission of the 3rd Air Division would later be rescinded because of adverse weather conditions. In the 1st Air Division, the 40th Combat Wing sent the 92nd and 305th Groups. The 92nd was the Division Lead, with the 305th following. LTC William H. Nelson, call sign "Foxhole Able", was the 1st Division Air Commander. The other two Combat Wings each sent all three of their groups (listed in their order in the strike force): 41st Combat Wing--303rd, 379th and 384th; 1st Combat Wing--398th, 91st and 381st. The 92nd and 398th Groups each put up four squadrons while the other Groups sent out the usual three squadrons. The 91st Bomb Group, flying out of Bassingbourn, had as its target the airfield at Pilsen. About 100 German aircraft, many of them fighters, including jet Me-262s, had been observed on the field by reconnaissance planes. The other Groups were targeted on the Skoda plant itself. The 91st formation for the day included the 322nd Squadron, flying as Group Lead, the 323rd High Squadron and the 324th Low Squadron. The 401st Squadron was stood down for the mission. LTC Donald H. Sheeler, call sign "Swordfish Baker", flying as copilot with Cpt. Rayolyn W. Schroeder's crew, was the Group Lead. 1Lt. Leslie S. Thompson, Jr. was first pilot and Squadron Lead for the 323rd Squadron. First pilots and planes from the 324th Squadron for this mission were as follow: First (Lead) Element: Lead plane, 1LtWilliam J. Auth, No. 588 ("Klette's Wild Hares"), with LTC Immanuel ("Manny") L. Klette, the 324th CO flying as copilot and Squadron Leader (this was Manny Klette's 91st bombing mission); Number two position (on the right wing of the lead plane), 1Lt. John E. Nichol, No. 623; No. 3 position (left wing of the lead plane), 1Lt. Edgar M. Moyer, No. 000 ("Extra Special"). Second element: Lead and Deputy Squadron Lead, 1Lt. William E. Gladitsch, No. 884; No. 2, 2Lt. Armando P. Crosa, No. 889 ("Chippewa--The Milwaukee Road"); No. 3, 1Lt. John L. Hatfield, No. 061 "General Ike"). Third Element: Lead, 2Lt. Gordon A. Woolard, No. 959 ("Rhapsody in Red"); No. 2, F/O Louis Schafts, No. 880; No. 3, 1Lt. William P. Steffens, No. 772 ("Sweet Freda"). Fourth Element: Lead, 1Lt. George S. McEwen, No. 153; No. 2, 1Lt. Earl G. Pate, Jr., No. 844 ("Yankee Gal"); No. 3 (Squadron "Tail-end Charlie"), 2Lt. Raymond W. Darling, No. 936. Since this was to be a long mission, with an early departure, the crews were awakened in time for breakfast at 0200. Briefing was at 0300. The bomb load for the Lead and Low Squadrons was twenty 250 pound General Purpose bombs; the High Squadron aircraft each carried six 500 pound General Purpose bombs and four M-17 incendiaries. The Aiming Point (AP) for the 322nd and 324th Squadrons was the center of the runways, while the 323rd was to aim on the west hanger on the south side of the field. The crews were briefed to make every possible attempt to keep their bombing patterns within the target area to avoid unnecessary damage to nearby civilian areas and loss of life to Czech nationals. As were the orders to all eight Groups, bombing on the primary target was to be visual only. Bombing altitudes were: Lead, 22,000 feet; High, 22,500 feet; Low, 21,500 feet. The secondary target was a visual run on the railway traffic center on the east side of Munich. The AP for the 322nd Lead Squadron was the Goods Depot, for the 323rd High Squadron, the main station and for the 324th Low Squadron, the bridge over the rail yards. The Number three target was a H2X drop (bombing by radar bombsight) on the Main Railway Station in Munich. A scouting force, call sign "Buckeye Black", consisting of six P-51 fighters would provide target weather conditions to "Foxhole Able" 45 minutes prior to time over target. A screening force of four mosquito aircraft, call sign "Small Leak Blue", would rendezvous with the 91st Lead at 0955, 40 minutes from the primary target. The target to be attacked would be determined at that time. Upon receiving this information, "Small Leak Blue" would accompany the Group Lead to the appropriate IP where the screening aircraft would pull ahead and drop chaff (aluminum strips designed to foil German anti-aircraft radar) in the target area The 324th Squadron crews were at station at 0430. While Lt. Steffen's crew was going through their preflight checks, Sgt. William L. Swanson, the radio operator, tuned in to the BBC. The message to the Skoda workers in Pilsen telling them a strike force was being sent out today and that they should not go to work was going out over the air. The planes started engines at 0515, taxied at 0525, with the Group Lead aircraft lifting off at 0530. Lt. Auth's Lead plane of the 324th Squadron became airborne at 0540. All 324th planes were in the air by 0605. Although ground fog prevented terrain observation and high cloud cover over East Anglia was 10/10, weather was not a major problem for the 91st Group assembly. The Group Lead aircraft reached the assembly altitude of 5,000 feet at 0540. All 91st aircraft were in formation seven minutes before the briefed departure time. The group left the base area at 0642, only one minute behind schedule. The 398th Group was a little early in arriving at the 1st Combat Wing assembly and had to do a small "S-ing" to get into position. On the whole, the 1st Combat Wing assembly was very good. However, the Division assembly was somewhat ragged. The 1st Combat Wing was slightly early and the 40th Combat Wing slightly late in arriving at the Division assembly point. The 1st Combat Wing had to make a big "S-ing" to allow the two Combat Wings ahead of them to slip into the proper position. The English coast was crossed at 0727, at 5,000 feet and the continental coast at 0737, still at 5,000 feet. Someone else in the 1st Combat Wing was using the 91st Group Lead's call sign, confusing communications within the 91st Group. Further, the 602nd High Squadron of the 398th Group just ahead of the 91st, continually flew wide and back, getting into the way of the 91st. It was difficuLt. for the 91st to stay in formation and maintain the proper separation. At 0818 the 1st Division started climbing to the bombing altitude, reaching 22,000 feet at 1022, four minutes before the IP. About half way through the climb, the 381st Group passed the 91st, relegating the 91st to the eighth, and last, place in the Pilsen strike force for the rest of the mission. Radio operators in many of the 91st planes were listening in on the BBC to break the monotony of the long flight. At about 0930, only an hour before the target, the BBC once again was sending warning messages to the Czech workers in the Skoda plant that a strike force was on its way to Pilsen. The workers were told to get out of the plant immediately. This established a reasonably precise timing as to when to expect the bombers over Pilsen. The 324th Squadron formation was a little ragged from the time the Group left the continental coast to the IP. The third and fourth elements, in particular were flying loose and too far behind the formation. As the 91st approached the IP, there was a jamming up of squadrons as they began their bomb runs, on slightly different headings and at too close intervals. Between the IP and the target, however, the 324th tightened up with the planes tucking in close together. Up to this point, the Pilsen mission was progressing routinely. However, as the strike force approached the target, things became exceptionally confused and harrowing. For starters, "Buckeye Black" had gotten lost and reported cloud conditions over Prague (0/10) instead of Pilsen. Cloud cover over Pilsen was 7-8/10. This was discovered only as the Lead Group approached the target, too late to switch to the secondary target. Further, the German anti-aircraft artillery were waiting for them. The BBC messages to the Czech workers obviously had been heard by the Germans. Mobile flak batteries had been concentrated in and around the target area. Tracking flak hit the strike force starting about three minutes from the target and ending just beyond Bombs Away. Most of the bursts were black, with a few white bursts mixed in. As the first Groups went over the target, the flak was designated as "meagre and inaccurate. The German gunners did not yet have the proper range. Because of the dense cloud cover, the Lead Squadron bombardiers in all groups had trouble identifying their APs. In the 92nd Lead Group, the Lead Squadron bombardier could not see the AP and the squadron made a 360 to the right to go over the target, and through the flak, again. It dropped on the second run. The High Squadron also failed to see the AP and made a 360 to drop on the second run. Both the Low and Low-Low Squadrons had to make two 360s before spotting their APs, finally dropping on the third run over the target. None of the three Lead bombardiers in the 305th Group could spot the AP and the entire Group made one 360, dropping on the second run. The 41st Combat Wing Groups also experienced trouble in identifying their APs. All three squadrons of the 303rd Group failed to find their APs on the first run over the target. After making a 360 and picking an alternate AP, all squadrons bombed on the second pass. The Lead Squadron of the 379th Group was unable to bomb visually on the first run so aborted and made a 360 and dropped on the second run. Both the Low and High Squadrons were able to see their APs and dropped on the first run. For the return to England, the Low and High Squadrons headed on back from the rally point without waiting for the Lead Squadron. After completing its second pass over the target, the Lead Squadron joined up with the 91st Group for the trip back across the continent. On the first pass, none of the bombardiers of the 384th Group identified their APs and the entire Group made a 360. On the second run, the Lead and Low dropped, but the High Squadron had to make another 360 before identifying the target and dropping on the third pass over the target. The last 384th Group plane dropped at 1116, presumably the last bombs dropped on Europe by the 8th Air Force. The Lead and Low Squadrons circled in the vicinity of Frankfurt until the High Squadron caught up with them for the trip back to their base at Grafton-Underwood. In the 1st Combat Wing, none of the four squadron Lead bombardiers of the 398th Group could find their AP. The entire Group made a 360, with all squadrons dropping on the second pass over the target. The available records for the 381st Group are unclear. It appears at least one squadron made a 360 back over the target, while the other two squadrons dropped on their first pass. As they approached the target, the crewmen in the 324th were obviously nervous because of what they saw happening ahead of them. Since it was last in the bomber stream, the 91st was flying into utter chaos ahead. Entire Groups or individual Squadrons were making 360s and trying to find space to wedge back into the bomber stream for another pass over the target. Other Squadrons were heading to their Group rally point and making 360s there while waiting for the rest of the Group to complete their 360s over the target and join up for the return flight. The 324th crews saw planes in the groups ahead of them going down, as well as from Squadrons now moving in behind them for another pass over the target. >From the Lead 92nd Group No. 369 with Lt. Lewis B. Fisher's crew aboard went down (6 KIA); from the 305th Group, No.300 ("Fancy Pantz"), Lt. Gerald S. Hodges' crew; from the 303rd, No.447, Lt. Warren Mauger (3 KIA); from the 384th Group, No. 501 ("Sweet Chariot"), Lt. Andrew G. Lovett; from the 398th Group, No. 266 ("Godfather's Inc"), Lt. Allen F. Fergusen, Jr. (6 KIA) and No. 652 ("Stinky Jr"), Lt. Paul A. Coville (1 KIA). In addition, two aircraft from the 379th Group (No. 178, "Seattle Sue", Lt. James M. Blain and No. 272 "The Thumper", Lt. Robert C. Evans) collided in mid air as a resuLt. of flak damage. Both planes went down in allied territory. All nine crewmen aboard "Seattle Sue" and the tail gunner aboard "The Thumper" were killed. A number of other planes were falling out of formation with engines out or fires aboard. The crewmen in the other planes could only assume these aircraft were going down, too. Further, the flak became much more intense and accurate with each run over the target. By the time the 324th approached the target, it was especially intense. Most crewmen in all three squadrons of the 91st Group, as well as many of those in the other Groups, said the flak was among the most accurate and intense they had encountered on any mission, including those to Berlin. Seeing the flak concentration over the target and other planes exploding and falling out of formation obviously made an impression on the pilots of the typically vulnerable Low Squadron. As a result, the 324th formation became exceptionally tight as they headed in over the target. In spite of the heavy cloud cover, the Lead bombardier in No. 852 of the Lead Squadron, 1Lt. Stephen Lada, got a visual fix on the AP and dropped his bombs. The rest of the squadron toggled on his smoke streamer. Just after bombs away, No. 306 ("The Biggest Bird"), the lead plane in the Fourth Element, was hit in the right wing, knocking out both No. 3 and 4 engines, disabling the supercharger on an engine on the left wing, and severing the rudder control cables. When the togglier, S/Sgt. Francis N. Libby, toggled the bombs, 11 of the 20 250 pounders hung up and would not drop. With only one functional engine, the pilot, 1Lt. Robert Marlow, took the plane down to the deck to regain power in the engine without the supercharger. Although the crew dumped out all loose equipment, it became clear the aircraft could not make it back to Bassingbourn with the added weight of the bombs. The bombs could not be jettisoned since by then they were over occupied Allied territory. The bombs were pinned to prevent them from becoming armed and were kept aboard. Lt. Marlow looked for the nearest emergency field, finally putting down on a former German grass airstrip about 50 miles north of Nurnberg. When they touched down, Lt. Marlow discovered the brakes had also been shot out. The plane careened over the grass, ground looping and eventually coming to rest in some woods at the edge of the field. U. S. Army ground troops came by in a Jeep as the crew was getting out of the plane. The troops told the crew to hide in the woods to avoid German civilians until a truck could get there to pick them up. American bomber crews were not popular in that part of Germany. A truck soon arrived and picked up all of Lt. Marlow's crew. They returned to Bassignborn three days later, the last 91st crew to return from a mission over Europe. 2Lt. Glennon J. Schone's plane, No. 790 ("Oh Happy Day"), flying as Tail-end Charlie of the Lead Squadron (No. 3 position in the Fourth Element) was hit by flak just before bombs away. Although damage to the aircraft was minimal, the navigator, 2Lt. Arah J. Wilks was hit by a piece of flak about the size of a half-dollar that imbedded itself in his right thigh. By only a minute or so Lt. Wilks was the next to last crewman in the 91st to be wounded in the air. Both No. 596 ("Sweet Dish"), No. 3 in the Second Element and No. 308 ("Stinky"), No. 3 in the Lead Element were hit hard by flak over the target, but remained in formation. Both returned to Bassingbourn without problem. Likewise, No. 901 ("Star Dust"), No. 2 of the Lead Element, was hit in a Tokyo tank (outer wing tanks added to the original design of the B-17 to increase its range) by flak just before the target. She, too, remained in formation for the trip home. As the other two squadrons came over the target, neither Lead bombardier could locate his AP and the Lead planes did not drop. The High Squadron Lead, 1Lt. Leslie S. Thompson, Jr., in No. 630 ("Geraldine"), ordered the squadron to make a 360 to go over the target again. This they did. However, there was a lot of concern on the part of the other crews as they did so. The radios were going wild as they headed for the target again. 2Lt. Willis C. Schilly, 1st pilot of No. 964, flying in the No. 3 position of the Second Element thought to himself, "If we don't drop this time, I will not go over again." No. 540 ("Ramblin' Rebel"), with 1Lt. Leland C. Borgstrom's crew aboard, was flying on the right wing of the Lead plane of the Number Two Element. There was discussion between Lt. Borgstrom and the copilot, F/O Quentin E. Eathorne, as to whether they should go over again. Although F/O Eathorne was unhappy about the situation, they stayed with the formation and made a second run over the target. Other pilots and crews were upset at having to make the second run through the flak, but all stayed in formation. Because the return leg of the 360 was close to the target, and the flak, many thought they were going over the target, assuming they had made three runs, instead of two. No. 636 ("Outhouse Mouse"), on her 139th mission, with 1Lt. Elmer ("Joe") Harvey as first pilot, accidentally jettisoned her bombs about nine minutes before the first run over the target. She stayed in formation with the squadron on the first run. On the bomb run "Outhouse Mouse" took a flak hit that knocked out the No. 3 engine and severed all but two of the elevator control cables. However, she was able to remain in formation as the 323rd made the 360 and went over the target again. After coming off the target the second time, "Outhouse Mouse" could not maintain her position and had to drop out of the formation to return alone on a more direct flight back to England. She called for fighter support and eight P-51s escorted her most of the way out of Germany. Lt. Harvey brought her down at Bassingbourn at 1428, about half an hour ahead of the rest of the squadron. None of the other planes in the 323rd High Squadron received major damage; six had minor damage and the other five had no damage. It was when the Lead of the 324th Squadron did not drop that things started falling apart for the 324th. As the squadron went over the target, the Deputy Lead bombardier in No. 884, 1Lt. Joseph G. Weinstock, had the target in his bombsight. He saw that the Lead plane did not dropped and that the bomb bay doors were going up, indicating to him the Lead was unable to drop and aborting the bomb run. At that very instance, a shell burst next to the nose of the plane knocking out the No. 2 engine, spewing metal off the cowling and causing the plane to start to drop out of formation. The same burst threw a large shard of flak through the skin of the plane hitting Lt. Weinstock's shoulder, knocking him to the back of the compartment. As he fell backwards, Lt. Weinstock toggled the bombs, at 1037. With so much flak in the air and planes going down, the other toggliers were concentrating on watching for a smoke streamer on which to release their own bomb loads. When the streamer appeared from the Deputy Lead, all but Lt. Nichol's plane, No. 623, dropped. His togglier, T/Sgt. Joseph J. Zupko, realized the Squadron Lead had not dropped and held the bombs. As the Low Squadron Lead plane, No. 588, went over the target, the bombardier, 1Lt. Robert E. Finch, said he could not see the AP. Klette told the first pilot, Lt. Auth, "Well, we'll go around." Lt. Auth then started a 360 and Klette broke radio silence to tell the other pilots in the squadron to follow him back over the target. That was when pandemonium broke loose on the radio. All pilots were yelling at once telling Klette that they had dropped and were not going to go around and through the flak again. Someone told him that "If you are going back over again, you are going alone." With all the pilots yelling at once it is unclear what, if any, of the things the pilots were saying that Klette heard. Klette came back on the air telling them to "Be quiet. We are going around again. I don't want to discuss this. It's an order." None of the pilots said anything after that. But after they had made about a 180 turn, the other planes still flying at the briefed altitude broke formation and scattered. When the No. 2 plane in the Lead Element, No. 623, went over the target it took a flak hit that knocked out the No. 1 engine and blew part of the cowling off No. 2. Engine No. 2 soon went out and the plane began losing altitude. Since his aircraft had not dropped, Lt. Nichol attempted to go on around with Klette even though falling below the squadron formation. When the copilot, 1Lt. Lawrence E. Gaddis realized what Lt. Nichol was doing, he went out of control. He yelled over the intercom that he was taking over the plane and that they were not going through the flak again. He asked someone to come up and get Lt. Nichol out of the pilot's seat. After experiencing the flak over the target once, and realizing it would be even more accurate on the next run, the crew of No. 623 was in agreement with Lt. Gaddis. One of the crewmen grabbed the landing gear crank and went into the cockpit to convince Lt. Nichol to abort the 360. In the meantime the other crewmen were yelling over the intercom for Lt. Nichol not to go around. By this time they were down to 18,000 feet and well below the rest of the Squadron. Finally realizing the folly of going over the target again alone and at such a low altitude, Lt. Nichol banked the plane around the airfield and let the bombs fly in the vicinity of the target, releasing them at 1047. Even with the bomb load out, the aircraft continued losing altitude. The crew tossed out everything loose to lighten the plane. The ball turret gunner, S/Sgt. Delbert J. Augsburger, asked permission to jettison the ball turret, but Lt. Nichol told him "no." No. 623 finally leveled off at about 7,200 feet. With insufficient power to get back in formation, T/Sgt. Carl Greco, the acting navigator for the mission, plotted a course back to Bassingbourn slightly north of the briefed route. They headed back alone, at 97 MPH. Although they had not seen any German fighters up to this point in time, the threat was always there. They fired off flares and called for fighter escort. Some P-51s joined them, but even by lowering their flaps and wheels, the fighters could not slow down enough to stay with No. 623. The fighters had to leave No. 623 and Lt. Nichol's crew to make it back on their own. The situation was less hectic in Lt. Moyer's plane, No. 000 ("Extra Special"), on the left wing, in the No. 3 position, of the Lead Element. When the call came from Klette to do a 360 back over the target, the togglier, Sgt. V D Stockton, told Lt. Moyer to tell Klette that he had toggled the bombs on the Deputy Lead smoke marker. But, Klette had said he was ordering them to go around. About this time some of the pilots, including Lt. Moyer, thought they heard someone coming in over the radio saying that anyone who had dropped could join up with another group for the return. Accordingly, Lt. Moyer broke formation and looked for somewhere else to join up before the rest of the crew got unduly agitated. Sighting planes from the 305th Group rallying nearby, Lt. Moyer headed for their formation. Since the Germans were known to put up captured B-17s to infiltrate formations, it took some time before "Extra Special" was allowed to join up. Eventually she was let in and flew on back to England with the 305th. When the formation reached England Lt. Moyer left the 305th formation and flew on to Bassingbourn, arriving there about 50 minutes before the rest of the Squadron. In the Second Element, Lt. Gladitsch in the Lead plane, No. 884, had taken flak hits that had knocked out the Nos. 1 and 2 engines. With only two engines pulling full power No. 884 was unable to stay in formation. They had dropped to about 10,000 feet when the No. 1 engine started up again and began pulling a little power. By throwing out all the loose equipment, including the .50 caliber machine guns and the radios, Lt. Gladitsch was able to maintain this altitude. Lt. Gladitsch broke radio silence and got permission from Klette to abort and return to England. No. 884, although not able to get back in the formation, flew slightly behind and below the 91st Group formation and made it on back to Bassingbourn. Some 324th planes fell into formation with No. 884 on her way back. In the No. 2 position of the Second Element, Lt. Crosa's plane, No. 889 ("Chippewa--the Milwaukee Road") was buffeted badly by the flak as she went over the target. Sgt. James H. Wyant, the ball turret gunner was watching the massive flak bursts breaking under and around him. It was the worst flak he had experienced. It just "kept it up and kept it up." Two pieces of flak came through the nose, knocking out the Plexiglas and a number of holes appeared in the fuselage and wings. Sgt. Wyant assumed they would not make it through the flak. He rotated the ball turret to the exit position and went up into the plane where he could get to his chute when he had to bail out. But, No. 884 did make it through the flak without serious damage. As soon as they cleared the flak, Sgt. Wyant climbed back into the turret to watch for German fighters. In the meantime, the Lt. Crosa was continuing on a 360 turn along with Klette. Although the crew was surprised that the squadron was making a turn back towards the target, Lt. Crosa broke formation, along with 6-7 other planes, before the crewmen understood what was happening and became unduly concerned. As Lt. Hatfield's plane, No. 061 ("General Ike"), flying in the No. 3 position in the Second Element, came up on the target, the crew saw clouds of flak and planes going down. Sgt. Emil A. Kubiak in the ball turret tried to call out the flak bursts, but they were all over the place, too many to take evasive action. "General Ike" made it to the target without major damage. The togglier, Sgt. Vernon E.Thomas, triggered the bomb release on the smoke streamer from the Deputy Lead. At the same time, the flight engineer, Sgt. Victor Maguire, Jr., hit the salvo switch and Lt. Hatfield pulled the bomb release in the cockpit. The bombs dropped! Just after they dropped, a flak burst hit the bomb bay doors so that they would not come up. The tail gunner, Sgt. Alfred G. Miller, plugged in his "walk-about" oxygen tank and came up to help Sgt. Maguire put out the fires and crank up the bomb bay doors. The radio operator, Sgt. Vincent W. Karas, went back and manned the tail guns while this was going on. As the bomb bay doors were going up, the crew noticed a fire in the bomb bays. Smoke started filling the plane, adding to all the confusion of the flak bursting around the plane. Sgt. Maquire pulled wires rapidly, while Sgt. Miller fought the fire. It soon was put out. About that time Lt. Hatfield switched the radio transmissions from the Lead plane into over the intercom. Klette's voice came through ordering the squadron around again. Lt. Hatfield went part way around with Klette, but broke formation about the same time as did the other planes in the squadron. "General Ike" made a tight 360 inside the other planes about a mile south of the target and started home alone. Shortly after leaving the target area one of the crew reported "bandits" closing in on them. However, the fighters proved to be P-51 Mustangs. Over friendly Allied occupied territory a couple of other planes, with feathered engines, joined up with "General Ike" to continue on back to Bassingbourn. In the Third Element, Lt. Woolard's Lead plane, No. 959 ("Rhapsody in Red") dropped on the Deputy Lead smoke streamer at 1037. However, the plane was hit very hard by flak over the target. One engine was knocked out and another was pulling only one half power. A piece of flak came up through the bottom and imbedded itself behind the pilot's seat. It had knocked out the hydraulic system on the way up into the plane. With the loss of power, "Rhapsody in Red" could not stay in formation and had to drop out to return alone. No. 880, flying in the No. 2 position with Lt. Schaft's crew aboard also dropped with the Deputy Squadron Lead at 1037. The aircraft took only a few minor flak hits over the target. Lt. Schaft made a 180 with Klette, before deciding to break formation with the other planes. He formed up on some of the other planes from the 324th that were still flying at the briefed altitude and went on back to Bassingbourn without incident. Lt. Steffen's plane, No. 772 ("Sweet Freda") flying on the left wing of Lt. Woolard, dropped with the Deputy Lead at 1037 and took only a few flak hits as she went over the target. Lt. Steffens stayed with Klette through the first part of the 360. While doing so, he relayed what Klette was saying to the rest of the crew over the intercom. They started screaming at Lt. Steffens not to go around--no way would they go through that flak again. He, too, took their advice, broke formation about half way around to the target and formed up with other 324th Squadron planes to head back to Bassingbourn. S/Sgt. Samuel S. Castiglione, togglier of the Lead of the Fourth Element, No. 153, toggled with the Deputy plane at 1037. However, only 11 of the 20 bombs dropped; nine hung up. No. 153 was hit hard directly over the target. A shell exploded on the left side of the aircraft, between the No. 3 engine and the cockpit. Fortunately, the blast was directed downwards and did not throw flak into the top turret. As it was, the right eardrum of the flight engineer, Sgt. Robert H. Cleveland was blown out. The No. 3 engine was knocked out, a number of holes appeared in the nose and wing, and a wing spar was almost severed. A piece of flak went through the ball turret, barely missing the gunner, Sgt. John F. Unger. Sgt. Unger soon became very cold from the subzero wind blowing through the hole. Other flak hits damaged the tail of the aircraft. Lt. McEwen feathered No. 3 engine and in spite of the damage and the extra load from the 9 hung-up bombs, was able to maintain altitude. They stayed with Klette as he started the 360. The crew saw the Squadron Lead starting a 360 and wondered why they were going around again, but before they got to the panic stage, Lt. McEwen broke formation with the others and formed up for the trip home. The hung-up bombs were pinned and taken back with them. Most of the trip home was over Allied controlled territory where it was not safe to jettison the bombs. 1Lt. Earl G. Pate's No. 844 ("Yankee Gal") was flying in the No. 2 position of the fourth element. "Yankee Gal" took a lot of small flak hits as she went over the target, but there was no serious structural damage to the plane. The togglier, S/Sgt. George D. Kelly, toggled the bombs on the smoke streamer of the Deputy Lead at 1037. Lt. Pate followed on the right wing of McEwen half way through the 360, but broke formation with the others, forming up on the first plane he saw from the squadron for the trip home. He did not see McEwen's plane the rest of the way back. Although the crew saw they were making a turn back towards the target, they did not get upset since they did not realize what was taking place. "Yankee Gal" broke formation before the crew understood Klette had ordered another run over the target. Things were much more frantic among the crew of Tail-end Charlie, No. 936, with 2Lt. Raymond W. Darling's crew aboard. They, too, were shaken by the intensity and accuracy of the flak. However, the plane took only minor hits as it went over the target and dropped with the Deputy Lead at 1038. As No. 936 came off the target, rallying to the right and out of the flak, the crew breathed a sigh of relief that they had survived. Then, Klette came in over the radio ordering the Squadron to make a 360 and go back over with him. Lt. Darling switched the radio to the intercom so the crew could be told what Klette was ordering them to do. The crew became rather frantic, including Lt. Darling. Lt. Darling then switched off the radio and asked for a vote as to whether they should go or not go. The crewmen were yelling for him not to go around and go through the flak again. The tail gunner, S/Sgt. Wayne E. Kerr, came on the intercom and said "Lieutenant, I'm married and have a little boy. I'm not going through that again. If you go around, I'm bailing out." Lt. Darling told them "We're not going over again", banked sharply to the right and peeled out of the formation. His crew was ecstatic! Some other planes formed up on No. 936 as they reassembled in the 91st formation for the trip back. When the other 324th Squadron planes broke formation, the tail gunner, S/Sgt. Charles L. Coon, of the Lead plane came in on the intercom to tell Klette the rest of the squadron had broken formation and that No. 588 was now by herself. Klette then said, We'll put the pins back in the bombs and go home." They then set out to catch up with the rest of the 324th Squadron planes that were still at the briefed altitude. Klette was quiet the entire flight back to Bassingbourn. Strike photos from the 323rd showed good bombing results for the High Squadron. However, because of the dense cloud cover results of the Lead and Low squadrons was unobserved. It was learned later that 70% of the plant had been destroyed. Only six workers were killed. However, bombs did fall in the near-by residential area, killing 67 people and destroying 335 houses. Seventeen German anti-aircraft gunners were also killed. After rallying to the right off the target, the 322nd Lead Squadron made a large oval 360 in an attempt to allow the 323rd High Squadron to complete its second bomb run and get back into the formation. The rally point, near Wurzburg, was adjacent to the southern arc of the oval. Those planes of spread-out Low 324th Squadron planes still at the briefed altitude and with the 91st Group formation also made the 360 with the Lead Squadron. However, the 323rd was too late in coming off the target to get into its proper position and followed along behind the rest of the Group. The Lead and Low Squadrons made "S's" on either side of the prescribed return route to lose time for the High Squadron to catch up. It never did. The 323rd Squadron, however, was in radio contact with the Group Lead at all times and came into visual contact at 1300, before reaching the continental coast. The 322nd Lead and 324th Low Squadron let-down was started at 1115, leveling off at 8,000 feet at 1146. Let-down resumed at 1225, with the formation crossing the continental coast at 1354 at 3,000 feet and the English coast at 1407 at the same altitude. The 323rd High Squadron crossed the continental coast at 1359 at 7,000 feet and the English coast at 1410, at 4,000 feet. Aircraft of the Lead Squadron began landing at 1429 and were all down by 1501. The first 324th Low Squadron aircraft, No. 000 with Lt. Moyer's crew, who had come back with the 305th Group, had landed at 1335. The last 324th plane, No. 623, Lt. Nichol's plane, which had come back alone on two engines, touched down at 1530. Although six of the twelve 324th aircraft had sustained major damage over the target, all but two made routine landings at Bassingbourn. Lt. Woolard in "Rhapsody in Red" was struggling to stay in the air as the plane crossed over the English coast. One engine was out and another pulling only one-half power. Further, the hydraulic system was knocked out so that there were no brakes. The landing gear electrical system was out and the wheels had to be hand-cranked down. Lt. Woolard reached Klette on the radio, requesting permission to land at Alconbury where the runways were longer. Klette came back on the air and told him he would land at Bassingbourn or "not at all." So it was on to Bassingbourn. With no brakes "Rhapsody in Red" took a "tour of the base" when she landed. The aircraft rolled off the runway veered to the right and headed across the grass towards her hardstand area, hitting the ground crew's tent with her wing as she spun around, throwing part of the tent up onto the radio antenna like wash on a line. She finally came to a stop with only minimal damage to the aircraft. The ground crew chief, S/Sgt. John A. Mabray, was taking it all in, apparently more afraid of damage to "his plane" than concern for the flight crew. Lt. Woolard had done a good job of getting the plane down on her, and his, final mission. Lt. Nichol in No. 623 had made the flight back on two engines. Fuel was so low by the time they neared Bassingbourn that he did not have time for a normal approach so as to land into the wind. Lt. Nichol had to make a straight-in landing with the wind. Even so, Lt. Nichol did an excellent job of putting the underpowered damaged aircraft down on the runway. When the plane came to a stop and crew was getting out, the Control Tower called for Lt. Nichol to report to the tower immediately. He brushed off his "wings" as he went back anticipating being commended for making such a good landing under the circumstances. Instead, he was chewed out for landing down-wind! Shortly after debriefing was over and the 324th crews had returned to their billets a voice came over the PA system ordering all 1st pilots to report to the Squadron Orderly Room immediately. Those that had undressed threw on some clothes and went over. About 10-11 of the pilots went in to face a fired-up Klette. He was livid and started in chewing them out in royal order. He called them all "Yellow-bellied SOBs" for breaking formation. Klette kept berating them, saying that the war would have been lost long ago if they had been running it. He said he didn't care if they had dropped their bombs, he had ordered them to go over again with him. After several minutes of chewing them out, Klette told the pilots he was going to court-martial five of the ones he felt. most responsible for breaking formation, although he did not name names. Further, he said he was adding five missions to the 35-mission quota for all first pilots who had broken formation. Although Lt. Gladitsch had a brief heated discussion with Klette for giving the other pilots extra missions, Klette did not give the pilots a chance to talk or explain what had happened. He simply stormed out of the meeting. The pilots were devastated. Some felt. it was a death sentence. Several were only 2-3 missions away from finishing their tours. Some of the last missions had been especially scary with heavy flak concentrations. The formation also had been challenged by German Me-262 jet fighters on the Dresden mission the 17th of April. After Klette left, Lt. Auth, the Lead Pilot, got up and tried to calm the others down. He told them "Don't worry about it. There will not be five more missions before the war is over. Five more missions has no meaning." He also told them Klette could not make the additions stick. Higher headquarters would not approve such an increase in the required missions. Klette was not satisfied with chewing out the pilots. He also called in the Deputy bombardier, Lt. Weinstock, and went after him. Although Lt. Weinstock held Klette in very high esteem as a combat leader, they had had their personal differences ever since Lt. Weinstock had arrived in the Squadron. In spite of their personal differences, Klette had assigned Lt. Weinstock as Deputy bombardier for the Pilsen mission. The night before the mission, Klette and his good friend 1Lt. David Bullen, a pilot in the 324th, were having drinks in the Officer's Club. Lt. Bullen had finished his quota of missions with the Dresden mission on the 17th of April. Klette tried to get Lt. Bullen to fly the Pilsen mission, but he refused. Then they started talking about the need for a good Deputy bombardier. Lt. Bullen told Klette that he should take Lt. Weinstock since he was a former instructor and one of the better bombardiers in the Squadron. So, Klette put him on the loading list for the Deputy Lead plane. The morning following the mission, Lt. Bullen was leaving Bassingbourn to return to the States. He mentioned to one of the other pilots he was going down to headquarters to say good-bye to Klette before he left. The pilots told him what had happened and warned him not to see Klette, since he had been the one who had recommended Lt. Weinstock for the mission. Lt. Bullen left Bassingbourn without saying good-bye. He never saw Manny Klette again. None of the penalties was laid on. Pilsen was the last mission the 8th Air Force flew. None of the pilots had to fly another combat mission. The entire incident was hushed up officially. Nothing that happened after the target is in the Squadron or Group records. Only Lt. Moyer's debriefing report indicates he did not return "as briefed." The section of the debriefing form asking whether or not the plane returned "as briefed" was left blank on the debriefing forms for the other planes. The debriefing records indicate that Klette's Lead plane dropped at 1036, the same time as the rest of the Squadron. The report states that l0 of the 19 bombs and the smoke streamer were dropped on the target. The remaining 9 were reported to have been brought home. However, surviving crewmembers recalled that all 19 bombs and the smoke streamer were returned. They did not drop on the target and none was jettisoned. The report of 2Lt. Edward J. Drake, a pilot from the 401st Squadron, flying as formation coordinator for the Group in the tail gun position of the Group Lead clarifies little of what actually happened. Lt. Drake correctly recorded that the 324th was "scattered in flak" at 1100, 24 minutes after it had dropped. At 1115 he could see neither the 324th Low Squadron nor the 323rd High Squadron. At 1200 Lt. Drake recorded only that the 324th formation was a "little loose" and that "the Second Element is flying too far out, probably because of battle damage." At 1230 he recorded the squadron still flying "loosely", with the right wing of the Second Element "too far out and back." At 1300 the Second Element was still "too far back." At 1330 the 324th formation was "not too good", with the Second and Third Elements flying "much too far out." At 1400 all elements except the lead "are out of formation." At 1430 the Second Element is "too far out" and the Fourth Element "much too loose." He gave the lowest ranking of the three squadrons to the 324th for formation flying on this mission. Lt. Drake did not identify individual planes in his records. Apparently, he was observing random reshuffling of those planes that were still at the briefed altitude in some semblance of a combat formation. Lt. Drake understandably was confused. Only eight 324th planes in the formation were flying at the prescribed altitude. Three 324th planes came back alone or well out of the formation: No. 884 (Lead, Second Element), No. 623 (Right Wing, Lead Element) and No. 959 (Lead, Third Element). In addition, No. 000 (Left Wing, Lead Element) joined up with he 305th Group for the return flight. However, Lead Squadron planes of the 379th Group may have also been flying with the 324th planes, adding to the confusion. Thus, ended the war for the 324th Squadron. A wild and memorable mission. Crewmen who flew on the Pilsen mission remember it as one of the most chaotic and scariest of missions they had flown. Confusion was rampant over the target. With so many squadrons making additional bombing runs (there were 52 separate squadron passes over the target), German anti-aircraft fire against late-arriving squadrons was becoming more and more accurate. A number of planes were going down or dropping out of the formation. This was the scene that greeted the 324th Squadron as it approached the target. It is understandable that everyone was in a high state of anxiety. All crews of the 324th acted correctly as they went over the target. The Lead bombardier could not identify the AP and rightly did not drop. The Lead plane gave the proper signal for the rest of the squadron not to drop and to start a 360 by pulling up the bomb bay doors and turning to the right. The Deputy bombardier thought he had identified the squadron AP and saw the Lead plane appearing to abort the bomb run at the same instant he and his plane were hit hard by flak. That he dropped his bombs and smoke steamer was as per SOP, which Klette admitted to him years later. Because of all the confusion and heavy flak on the bomb run, toggliers in the other planes were concentrating on watching for the smoke steamer. When a streamer appeared, they immediately toggled their bombs, as they were supposed to do. What ensued following the bomb run is more questionable. Should Klette have ordered a 360? Should the pilots have broken formation? Was Klette justified in threatening reprisals against the pilots? One obviously has to be circumspect in addressing these questions from the wisdom and safety of 50 plus years of hindsight. The initial order for a 360 to make a second run over the target was appropriate. The Lead plane had not dropped and Klette could only assume the others had not dropped either. Most other squadrons in the strike force were doing the same. But, should Klette have continued the 360 after being informed that the other planes in the squadron had dropped? However, with all pilots yelling over the radio at once, it is likely that Klette did not understand that the other planes had dropped. He later said "I did not know they had dropped." There is no way of knowing, of course, if Klette would have eventually aborted the second run had the other pilots not first broken formation. Should the pilots have broken formation? All except Lt. Nichol's plane had accomplished their missions. Approximately 21 tons of bombs already had been dropped by the 324th Squadron. Was it worth risking the lives of the 98 crewmen in the squadron to drop an additional four tons on the airfield? As it was, 26 crewmen in the other seven Groups were killed. This was a huge price to pay for potential long-term post-war political reasons. The reactions of the pilots were appropriate under the circumstances. Klette told Lt. Pate years later, that if the squadron had not dropped on the Deputy bombardier, they would have gone around with him. The response of Klette to the pilots breaking formation is understandable. A highly respected Squadron Commander, Klette had flown more bombing missions than any other pilot in the 8th Air Force. Klette displayed an intense drive to accomplish his missions. He obviously had been under considerable stress over the past several months, perhaps accounting for his short temper. Klette also had an ego that matched his reputation. It was only natural, therefore, that he would consider the fact that the pilots had broken formation and refused to go around with him to be a reflection on his image as a commander. What is not clear, however, is how much of the ensuing tirade was an impulsive verbal reaction simply to make a point and how much he really meant to follow through with. That he was quiet and did not seem unduly upset on the long flight back from Pilsen suggests much of the ranting against the pilots and Lt. Weinstock was simply a way of venting his frustrations. In the final analysis, however, all the confusion and resulting actions on the Pilsen mission became merely an unrecorded footnote in the history of the 91st Bomb Group. No damage had been done. All crewmen returned. None of the threats was carried out and Klette never brought up the incident again. No more missions were flown in the two remaining weeks of the war. All that mattered then was getting home. The events of the Pilsen mission soon were relegated to the recesses of the minds of the crewmen, only to be brought up decades later during late night war stories at reunions of the 91st Bomb Group. But, the story of how the war ended for the 324th Squadron needs to be preserved. The chaotic events of that day should not disappear with the participants. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Mar 22 21:45:07 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:45:07 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I goofed on last message Message-ID: It was No.447, Lt. Warren Mauger crew (3 KIA) that was lost on the last mission to Pilsen, not No.300 ("Fancy Pantz"),Lt. Gerald S. Hodges' crew. Sorry guys, doing five things at once. Kevin >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: Fordlauer@aol.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:23:33 -0600 > >Ford and all the rest: The 8th AF lost bombers all the way to the very end >of the war, not just until March. Yes, the Luftwaffe had been >systematically disembowled, but they made an effort until the bitter end >and >contiued to be successful in downing the Heavies, even if only one or two >at >a time, but the fact reamins, Heavies and their crews were lost until the >very end. Here is one of the best stories I have found on what would be >the >last mission for many Bomb Groups. And there were losses. This was >written >by my very good friend Lowell Getz, a retired psychology professor from the >University of Illinois, Campaign Urbana. As with all of Lowell's stories, >it is meticulously researched to the infinite detail. Don't let the 91st >in >the title throw you, he mentions several Bomb Groups in the story, >including >crews from the 303rd, like No.300 ("Fancy Pantz"),Lt. Gerald S. Hodges' >crew. It even shows the SNAFU principal was still at work on one of the >final missions of the war. Enjoy! Kevin > >The Last Mission of the 91st >Pandemonium Over Pilsen: The Forgotten Final Mission >By Lowell L. Getz. Copyright 1997. All rights reserved > > >By mid April 1945 the war in Europe was winding down rapidly. The Soviets >were fighting in the suburbs of Berlin, and had occupied much of the >eastern >region of Germany to the north and south of the city. From the west, >American and British forces were moving swiftly in a broad front across >central and southern Germany. General Patton's Third Army was closing on >the >Czechoslovakian border. It was obvious to all that the final collapse of >the >German ground forces was only a matter of days. Still, the air war was >continuing unabated. Heavy bomber missions were being flown almost every >day. However, substantive strategic targets were becoming fewer and fewer. >Most heavy industrial plants were either in Allied hands or lay in ruins. >The rail transportation system was in shambles. There was little >opportunity >for the Germans to move war materials that were being produced to their >collapsing front line forces. >The German fighter command was ineffective. Although a large number of >fighter aircraft were available, many of them Me-262 jet fighters, there >were neither enough experienced pilots nor adequate fuel supply to put >sufficient numbers of aircraft in the air to disrupt our bomber formations. >Allied fighters controlled the air over Europe. Anti-aircraft defenses, on >the other hand, were potentially effective around the few remaining >targets. >German gunners were capable of throwing up large quantities of accurate >anti-aircraft fire. The 8th Air Force was therefore faced with the problem >of identifying targets of sufficient strategic importance to warrant >risking >lives of the airmen. One of the few major industrial plants not yet damaged >by allied bombing was the Skoda Armament plant at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. >Although long a potential strategic target, it had not been bombed because >of its location within a Czech city. >The Skoda plant produced tanks, heavy guns and ammunition. While some of >these materials were being sent directly to the front, most of the >production would not reach the front in time to have an effect on the >allied >advances. Therefore, the Skoda plant did not seem a target worthy of the >risk. However, other factors came into consideration when evaluating the >priority of the Skoda plant for targeting. >By Spring 1945, it had become obvious to the Western Allies that the >Soviets >were positioning themselves to lay political claim to as much of post-war >Eastern Europe and Germany as possible. Bickering and lack of cooperation >on >the part of the Soviet negotiators over plans for governance of the >liberated countries of Eastern Europe and of occupied Germany had raised >the >specter of the coming "Cold War" in the minds of many at the higher >political levels in England and the United States. It was also assumed all >usable industrial machinery would be stripped from factories in occupied >territories and shipped back to the Soviet Union to rebuild her postwar >industry. This industrial capacity would be put to use in strengthening the >military posturing against the Western Allies. Destruction of the Skoda >plant would prevent usage of its industrial machinery by the Soviets. >Concern was also growing over what would happen when the main forces of the >approaching Soviet and Western armies came together. Some feared that the >Russians may keep driving westward to ensure their perceived territorial >prerogatives. A bombing mission in strength that deep in Europe, combined >with other strikes, would provide a show of force as to the air might of >the >Western Allies. Although the mission request came from General Eisenhower >at >SHAEF, the above political factors most likely weighed heavily in the >decision that resulted in Field Order No. 696. The Field Order was sent out >from the 8th Air Force at 2323 hours on 24 April, laying on a mission to >the >Skoda Armament plant at Pilsen the next day. >One sticky problem needed to be resolved in this decision. There were >approximately 40,000 men and women employed by the Skoda plant. These >workers were primarily Czech civilians and conscripted (slave) laborers. >The >death of innocent Czech workers would not do much to foster post-war good >will between eastern Europeans and the Western Allies. To reduce the >potential of civilian deaths, the night before the BBC had begun >broadcasting warnings to the Czech workers that a strike on Pilsen was >imminent and that they should stay away from the Skoda plant. On the >morning >of the 25th of April Allied Headquarters released the following warning >over >the BBC: "Allied bombers are out in great strength today. Their destination >is the Skoda works. Skoda workers, get out and stay out until the >afternoon." This was the only time a warning of a target had been issued >ahead of the mission. >Field Order 696 sent eight Groups of B-17s of the 1st Air Division to >Pilsen. Ten Groups of B-24s of the 2nd Air Division were targeted for rail >centers at Salzburg, Bad Reichenhall, Hallstein, and Trauenstein. Nine >Groups of B-17s in the 3rd Air Division would drop food supplies to several >German-occupied Dutch cities during the afternoon of the 25th. The mission >of the 3rd Air Division would later be rescinded because of adverse weather >conditions. >In the 1st Air Division, the 40th Combat Wing sent the 92nd and 305th >Groups. The 92nd was the Division Lead, with the 305th following. LTC >William H. Nelson, call sign "Foxhole Able", was the 1st Division Air >Commander. The other two Combat Wings each sent all three of their groups >(listed in their order in the strike force): 41st Combat Wing--303rd, 379th >and 384th; 1st Combat Wing--398th, 91st and 381st. The 92nd and 398th >Groups >each put up four squadrons while the other Groups sent out the usual three >squadrons. The 91st Bomb Group, flying out of Bassingbourn, had as its >target the airfield at Pilsen. About 100 German aircraft, many of them >fighters, including jet Me-262s, had been observed on the field by >reconnaissance planes. The other Groups were targeted on the Skoda plant >itself. >The 91st formation for the day included the 322nd Squadron, flying as Group >Lead, the 323rd High Squadron and the 324th Low Squadron. The 401st >Squadron >was stood down for the mission. LTC Donald H. Sheeler, call sign "Swordfish >Baker", flying as copilot with Cpt. Rayolyn W. Schroeder's crew, was the >Group Lead. 1Lt. Leslie S. Thompson, Jr. was first pilot and Squadron Lead >for the 323rd Squadron. >First pilots and planes from the 324th Squadron for this mission were as >follow: First (Lead) Element: Lead plane, 1LtWilliam J. Auth, No. 588 >("Klette's Wild Hares"), with LTC Immanuel ("Manny") L. Klette, the 324th >CO >flying as copilot and Squadron Leader (this was Manny Klette's 91st bombing >mission); Number two position (on the right wing of the lead plane), 1Lt. >John E. Nichol, No. 623; No. 3 position (left wing of the lead plane), 1Lt. >Edgar M. Moyer, No. 000 ("Extra Special"). Second element: Lead and Deputy >Squadron Lead, 1Lt. William E. Gladitsch, No. 884; No. 2, 2Lt. Armando P. >Crosa, No. 889 ("Chippewa--The Milwaukee Road"); No. 3, 1Lt. John L. >Hatfield, No. 061 "General Ike"). Third Element: Lead, 2Lt. Gordon A. >Woolard, No. 959 ("Rhapsody in Red"); No. 2, F/O Louis Schafts, No. 880; >No. >3, 1Lt. William P. Steffens, No. 772 ("Sweet Freda"). Fourth Element: Lead, >1Lt. George S. McEwen, No. 153; No. 2, 1Lt. Earl G. Pate, Jr., No. 844 >("Yankee Gal"); No. 3 (Squadron "Tail-end Charlie"), 2Lt. Raymond W. >Darling, No. 936. >Since this was to be a long mission, with an early departure, the crews >were >awakened in time for breakfast at 0200. Briefing was at 0300. The bomb load >for the Lead and Low Squadrons was twenty 250 pound General Purpose bombs; >the High Squadron aircraft each carried six 500 pound General Purpose bombs >and four M-17 incendiaries. The Aiming Point (AP) for the 322nd and 324th >Squadrons was the center of the runways, while the 323rd was to aim on the >west hanger on the south side of the field. The crews were briefed to make >every possible attempt to keep their bombing patterns within the target >area >to avoid unnecessary damage to nearby civilian areas and loss of life to >Czech nationals. As were the orders to all eight Groups, bombing on the >primary target was to be visual only. Bombing altitudes were: Lead, 22,000 >feet; High, 22,500 feet; Low, 21,500 feet. >The secondary target was a visual run on the railway traffic center on the >east side of Munich. The AP for the 322nd Lead Squadron was the Goods >Depot, >for the 323rd High Squadron, the main station and for the 324th Low >Squadron, the bridge over the rail yards. The Number three target was a H2X >drop (bombing by radar bombsight) on the Main Railway Station in Munich. >A scouting force, call sign "Buckeye Black", consisting of six P-51 >fighters >would provide target weather conditions to "Foxhole Able" 45 minutes prior >to time over target. A screening force of four mosquito aircraft, call sign >"Small Leak Blue", would rendezvous with the 91st Lead at 0955, 40 minutes >from the primary target. The target to be attacked would be determined at >that time. Upon receiving this information, "Small Leak Blue" would >accompany the Group Lead to the appropriate IP where the screening aircraft >would pull ahead and drop chaff (aluminum strips designed to foil German >anti-aircraft radar) in the target area >The 324th Squadron crews were at station at 0430. While Lt. Steffen's crew >was going through their preflight checks, Sgt. William L. Swanson, the >radio >operator, tuned in to the BBC. The message to the Skoda workers in Pilsen >telling them a strike force was being sent out today and that they should >not go to work was going out over the air. The planes started engines at >0515, taxied at 0525, with the Group Lead aircraft lifting off at 0530. Lt. >Auth's Lead plane of the 324th Squadron became airborne at 0540. All 324th >planes were in the air by 0605. >Although ground fog prevented terrain observation and high cloud cover over >East Anglia was 10/10, weather was not a major problem for the 91st Group >assembly. The Group Lead aircraft reached the assembly altitude of 5,000 >feet at 0540. All 91st aircraft were in formation seven minutes before the >briefed departure time. The group left the base area at 0642, only one >minute behind schedule. >The 398th Group was a little early in arriving at the 1st Combat Wing >assembly and had to do a small "S-ing" to get into position. On the whole, >the 1st Combat Wing assembly was very good. However, the Division assembly >was somewhat ragged. The 1st Combat Wing was slightly early and the 40th >Combat Wing slightly late in arriving at the Division assembly point. The >1st Combat Wing had to make a big "S-ing" to allow the two Combat Wings >ahead of them to slip into the proper position. >The English coast was crossed at 0727, at 5,000 feet and the continental >coast at 0737, still at 5,000 feet. Someone else in the 1st Combat Wing was >using the 91st Group Lead's call sign, confusing communications within the >91st Group. Further, the 602nd High Squadron of the 398th Group just ahead >of the 91st, continually flew wide and back, getting into the way of the >91st. It was difficuLt. for the 91st to stay in formation and maintain the >proper separation. >At 0818 the 1st Division started climbing to the bombing altitude, reaching >22,000 feet at 1022, four minutes before the IP. About half way through the >climb, the 381st Group passed the 91st, relegating the 91st to the eighth, >and last, place in the Pilsen strike force for the rest of the mission. >Radio operators in many of the 91st planes were listening in on the BBC to >break the monotony of the long flight. At about 0930, only an hour before >the target, the BBC once again was sending warning messages to the Czech >workers in the Skoda plant that a strike force was on its way to Pilsen. >The >workers were told to get out of the plant immediately. This established a >reasonably precise timing as to when to expect the bombers over Pilsen. >The 324th Squadron formation was a little ragged from the time the Group >left the continental coast to the IP. The third and fourth elements, in >particular were flying loose and too far behind the formation. As the 91st >approached the IP, there was a jamming up of squadrons as they began their >bomb runs, on slightly different headings and at too close intervals. >Between the IP and the target, however, the 324th tightened up with the >planes tucking in close together. >Up to this point, the Pilsen mission was progressing routinely. However, as >the strike force approached the target, things became exceptionally >confused >and harrowing. For starters, "Buckeye Black" had gotten lost and reported >cloud conditions over Prague (0/10) instead of Pilsen. Cloud cover over >Pilsen was 7-8/10. This was discovered only as the Lead Group approached >the >target, too late to switch to the secondary target. Further, the German >anti-aircraft artillery were waiting for them. The BBC messages to the >Czech >workers obviously had been heard by the Germans. Mobile flak batteries had >been concentrated in and around the target area. >Tracking flak hit the strike force starting about three minutes from the >target and ending just beyond Bombs Away. Most of the bursts were black, >with a few white bursts mixed in. As the first Groups went over the target, >the flak was designated as "meagre and inaccurate. The German gunners did >not yet have the proper range. Because of the dense cloud cover, the Lead >Squadron bombardiers in all groups had trouble identifying their APs. In >the >92nd Lead Group, the Lead Squadron bombardier could not see the AP and the >squadron made a 360 to the right to go over the target, and through the >flak, again. It dropped on the second run. The High Squadron also failed to >see the AP and made a 360 to drop on the second run. Both the Low and >Low-Low Squadrons had to make two 360s before spotting their APs, finally >dropping on the third run over the target. >None of the three Lead bombardiers in the 305th Group could spot the AP and >the entire Group made one 360, dropping on the second run. The 41st Combat >Wing Groups also experienced trouble in identifying their APs. All three >squadrons of the 303rd Group failed to find their APs on the first run over >the target. After making a 360 and picking an alternate AP, all squadrons >bombed on the second pass. The Lead Squadron of the 379th Group was unable >to bomb visually on the first run so aborted and made a 360 and dropped on >the second run. Both the Low and High Squadrons were able to see their APs >and dropped on the first run. For the return to England, the Low and High >Squadrons headed on back from the rally point without waiting for the Lead >Squadron. After completing its second pass over the target, the Lead >Squadron joined up with the 91st Group for the trip back across the >continent. >On the first pass, none of the bombardiers of the 384th Group identified >their APs and the entire Group made a 360. On the second run, the Lead and >Low dropped, but the High Squadron had to make another 360 before >identifying the target and dropping on the third pass over the target. The >last 384th Group plane dropped at 1116, presumably the last bombs dropped >on >Europe by the 8th Air Force. The Lead and Low Squadrons circled in the >vicinity of Frankfurt until the High Squadron caught up with them for the >trip back to their base at Grafton-Underwood. >In the 1st Combat Wing, none of the four squadron Lead bombardiers of the >398th Group could find their AP. The entire Group made a 360, with all >squadrons dropping on the second pass over the target. The available >records >for the 381st Group are unclear. It appears at least one squadron made a >360 >back over the target, while the other two squadrons dropped on their first >pass. >As they approached the target, the crewmen in the 324th were obviously >nervous because of what they saw happening ahead of them. Since it was last >in the bomber stream, the 91st was flying into utter chaos ahead. Entire >Groups or individual Squadrons were making 360s and trying to find space to >wedge back into the bomber stream for another pass over the target. Other >Squadrons were heading to their Group rally point and making 360s there >while waiting for the rest of the Group to complete their 360s over the >target and join up for the return flight. >The 324th crews saw planes in the groups ahead of them going down, as well >as from Squadrons now moving in behind them for another pass over the >target. >From the Lead 92nd Group No. 369 with Lt. Lewis B. Fisher's crew >aboard went down (6 KIA); from the 305th Group, No.300 ("Fancy Pantz"), Lt. >Gerald S. Hodges' crew; from the 303rd, No.447, Lt. Warren Mauger (3 KIA); >from the 384th Group, No. 501 ("Sweet Chariot"), Lt. Andrew G. Lovett; from >the 398th Group, No. 266 ("Godfather's Inc"), Lt. Allen F. Fergusen, Jr. (6 >KIA) and No. 652 ("Stinky Jr"), Lt. Paul A. Coville (1 KIA). In addition, >two aircraft from the 379th Group (No. 178, "Seattle Sue", Lt. James M. >Blain and No. 272 "The Thumper", Lt. Robert C. Evans) collided in mid air >as >a resuLt. of flak damage. Both planes went down in allied territory. >All nine crewmen aboard "Seattle Sue" and the tail gunner aboard "The >Thumper" were killed. A number of other planes were falling out of >formation >with engines out or fires aboard. The crewmen in the other planes could >only >assume these aircraft were going down, too. Further, the flak became much >more intense and accurate with each run over the target. By the time the >324th approached the target, it was especially intense. Most crewmen in all >three squadrons of the 91st Group, as well as many of those in the other >Groups, said the flak was among the most accurate and intense they had >encountered on any mission, including those to Berlin. Seeing the flak >concentration over the target and other planes exploding and falling out of >formation obviously made an impression on the pilots of the typically >vulnerable Low Squadron. As a result, the 324th formation became >exceptionally tight as they headed in over the target. >In spite of the heavy cloud cover, the Lead bombardier in No. 852 of the >Lead Squadron, 1Lt. Stephen Lada, got a visual fix on the AP and dropped >his >bombs. The rest of the squadron toggled on his smoke streamer. Just after >bombs away, No. 306 ("The Biggest Bird"), the lead plane in the Fourth >Element, was hit in the right wing, knocking out both No. 3 and 4 engines, >disabling the supercharger on an engine on the left wing, and severing the >rudder control cables. >When the togglier, S/Sgt. Francis N. Libby, toggled the bombs, 11 of the 20 >250 pounders hung up and would not drop. With only one functional engine, >the pilot, 1Lt. Robert Marlow, took the plane down to the deck to regain >power in the engine without the supercharger. Although the crew dumped out >all loose equipment, it became clear the aircraft could not make it back to >Bassingbourn with the added weight of the bombs. The bombs could not be >jettisoned since by then they were over occupied Allied territory. The >bombs >were pinned to prevent them from becoming armed and were kept aboard. >Lt. Marlow looked for the nearest emergency field, finally putting down on >a >former German grass airstrip about 50 miles north of Nurnberg. When they >touched down, Lt. Marlow discovered the brakes had also been shot out. The >plane careened over the grass, ground looping and eventually coming to rest >in some woods at the edge of the field. U. S. Army ground troops came by in >a Jeep as the crew was getting out of the plane. The troops told the crew >to >hide in the woods to avoid German civilians until a truck could get there >to >pick them up. American bomber crews were not popular in that part of >Germany. A truck soon arrived and picked up all of Lt. Marlow's crew. They >returned to Bassignborn three days later, the last 91st crew to return from >a mission over Europe. >2Lt. Glennon J. Schone's plane, No. 790 ("Oh Happy Day"), flying as >Tail-end >Charlie of the Lead Squadron (No. 3 position in the Fourth Element) was hit >by flak just before bombs away. Although damage to the aircraft was >minimal, >the navigator, 2Lt. Arah J. Wilks was hit by a piece of flak about the size >of a half-dollar that imbedded itself in his right thigh. By only a minute >or so Lt. Wilks was the next to last crewman in the 91st to be wounded in >the air. >Both No. 596 ("Sweet Dish"), No. 3 in the Second Element and No. 308 >("Stinky"), No. 3 in the Lead Element were hit hard by flak over the >target, >but remained in formation. Both returned to Bassingbourn without problem. >Likewise, No. 901 ("Star Dust"), No. 2 of the Lead Element, was hit in a >Tokyo tank (outer wing tanks added to the original design of the B-17 to >increase its range) by flak just before the target. She, too, remained in >formation for the trip home. >As the other two squadrons came over the target, neither Lead bombardier >could locate his AP and the Lead planes did not drop. The High Squadron >Lead, 1Lt. Leslie S. Thompson, Jr., in No. 630 ("Geraldine"), ordered the >squadron to make a 360 to go over the target again. This they did. However, >there was a lot of concern on the part of the other crews as they did so. >The radios were going wild as they headed for the target again. 2Lt. Willis >C. Schilly, 1st pilot of No. 964, flying in the No. 3 position of the >Second >Element thought to himself, "If we don't drop this time, I will not go over >again." No. 540 ("Ramblin' Rebel"), with 1Lt. Leland C. Borgstrom's crew >aboard, was flying on the right wing of the Lead plane of the Number Two >Element. There was discussion between Lt. Borgstrom and the copilot, F/O >Quentin E. Eathorne, as to whether they should go over again. Although F/O >Eathorne was unhappy about the situation, they stayed with the formation >and >made a second run over the target. >Other pilots and crews were upset at having to make the second run through >the flak, but all stayed in formation. Because the return leg of the 360 >was >close to the target, and the flak, many thought they were going over the >target, assuming they had made three runs, instead of two. >No. 636 ("Outhouse Mouse"), on her 139th mission, with 1Lt. Elmer ("Joe") >Harvey as first pilot, accidentally jettisoned her bombs about nine minutes >before the first run over the target. She stayed in formation with the >squadron on the first run. On the bomb run "Outhouse Mouse" took a flak hit >that knocked out the No. 3 engine and severed all but two of the elevator >control cables. >However, she was able to remain in formation as the 323rd made the 360 and >went over the target again. After coming off the target the second time, >"Outhouse Mouse" could not maintain her position and had to drop out of the >formation to return alone on a more direct flight back to England. She >called for fighter support and eight P-51s escorted her most of the way out >of Germany. Lt. Harvey brought her down at Bassingbourn at 1428, about half >an hour ahead of the rest of the squadron. >None of the other planes in the 323rd High Squadron received major damage; >six had minor damage and the other five had no damage. >It was when the Lead of the 324th Squadron did not drop that things started >falling apart for the 324th. As the squadron went over the target, the >Deputy Lead bombardier in No. 884, 1Lt. Joseph G. Weinstock, had the target >in his bombsight. He saw that the Lead plane did not dropped and that the >bomb bay doors were going up, indicating to him the Lead was unable to drop >and aborting the bomb run. At that very instance, a shell burst next to the >nose of the plane knocking out the No. 2 engine, spewing metal off the >cowling and causing the plane to start to drop out of formation. The same >burst threw a large shard of flak through the skin of the plane hitting Lt. >Weinstock's shoulder, knocking him to the back of the compartment. As he >fell backwards, Lt. Weinstock toggled the bombs, at 1037. With so much flak >in the air and planes going down, the other toggliers were concentrating on >watching for a smoke streamer on which to release their own bomb loads. >When >the streamer appeared from the Deputy Lead, all but Lt. Nichol's plane, No. >623, dropped. His togglier, T/Sgt. Joseph J. Zupko, realized the Squadron >Lead had not dropped and held the bombs. >As the Low Squadron Lead plane, No. 588, went over the target, the >bombardier, 1Lt. Robert E. Finch, said he could not see the AP. Klette told >the first pilot, Lt. Auth, "Well, we'll go around." Lt. Auth then started a >360 and Klette broke radio silence to tell the other pilots in the squadron >to follow him back over the target. >That was when pandemonium broke loose on the radio. All pilots were yelling >at once telling Klette that they had dropped and were not going to go >around >and through the flak again. Someone told him that "If you are going back >over again, you are going alone." With all the pilots yelling at once it is >unclear what, if any, of the things the pilots were saying that Klette >heard. Klette came back on the air telling them to "Be quiet. We are going >around again. I don't want to discuss this. It's an order." None of the >pilots said anything after that. But after they had made about a 180 turn, >the other planes still flying at the briefed altitude broke formation and >scattered. >When the No. 2 plane in the Lead Element, No. 623, went over the target it >took a flak hit that knocked out the No. 1 engine and blew part of the >cowling off No. 2. Engine No. 2 soon went out and the plane began losing >altitude. Since his aircraft had not dropped, Lt. Nichol attempted to go on >around with Klette even though falling below the squadron formation. When >the copilot, 1Lt. Lawrence E. Gaddis realized what Lt. Nichol was doing, he >went out of control. He yelled over the intercom that he was taking over >the >plane and that they were not going through the flak again. He asked someone >to come up and get Lt. Nichol out of the pilot's seat. >After experiencing the flak over the target once, and realizing it would be >even more accurate on the next run, the crew of No. 623 was in agreement >with Lt. Gaddis. One of the crewmen grabbed the landing gear crank and went >into the cockpit to convince Lt. Nichol to abort the 360. In the meantime >the other crewmen were yelling over the intercom for Lt. Nichol not to go >around. By this time they were down to 18,000 feet and well below the rest >of the Squadron. Finally realizing the folly of going over the target again >alone and at such a low altitude, Lt. Nichol banked the plane around the >airfield and let the bombs fly in the vicinity of the target, releasing >them >at 1047. >Even with the bomb load out, the aircraft continued losing altitude. The >crew tossed out everything loose to lighten the plane. The ball turret >gunner, S/Sgt. Delbert J. Augsburger, asked permission to jettison the ball >turret, but Lt. Nichol told him "no." No. 623 finally leveled off at about >7,200 feet. With insufficient power to get back in formation, T/Sgt. Carl >Greco, the acting navigator for the mission, plotted a course back to >Bassingbourn slightly north of the briefed route. They headed back alone, >at >97 MPH. Although they had not seen any German fighters up to this point in >time, the threat was always there. They fired off flares and called for >fighter escort. Some P-51s joined them, but even by lowering their flaps >and >wheels, the fighters could not slow down enough to stay with No. 623. The >fighters had to leave No. 623 and Lt. Nichol's crew to make it back on >their >own. >The situation was less hectic in Lt. Moyer's plane, No. 000 ("Extra >Special"), on the left wing, in the No. 3 position, of the Lead Element. >When the call came from Klette to do a 360 back over the target, the >togglier, Sgt. V D Stockton, told Lt. Moyer to tell Klette that he had >toggled the bombs on the Deputy Lead smoke marker. >But, Klette had said he was ordering them to go around. About this time >some >of the pilots, including Lt. Moyer, thought they heard someone coming in >over the radio saying that anyone who had dropped could join up with >another >group for the return. Accordingly, Lt. Moyer broke formation and looked for >somewhere else to join up before the rest of the crew got unduly agitated. >Sighting planes from the 305th Group rallying nearby, Lt. Moyer headed for >their formation. >Since the Germans were known to put up captured B-17s to infiltrate >formations, it took some time before "Extra Special" was allowed to join >up. >Eventually she was let in and flew on back to England with the 305th. When >the formation reached England Lt. Moyer left the 305th formation and flew >on >to Bassingbourn, arriving there about 50 minutes before the rest of the >Squadron. >In the Second Element, Lt. Gladitsch in the Lead plane, No. 884, had taken >flak hits that had knocked out the Nos. 1 and 2 engines. With only two >engines pulling full power No. 884 was unable to stay in formation. They >had >dropped to about 10,000 feet when the No. 1 engine started up again and >began pulling a little power. By throwing out all the loose equipment, >including the .50 caliber machine guns and the radios, Lt. Gladitsch was >able to maintain this altitude. Lt. Gladitsch broke radio silence and got >permission from Klette to abort and return to England. No. 884, although >not >able to get back in the formation, flew slightly behind and below the 91st >Group formation and made it on back to Bassingbourn. >Some 324th planes fell into formation with No. 884 on her way back. In the >No. 2 position of the Second Element, Lt. Crosa's plane, No. 889 >("Chippewa--the Milwaukee Road") was buffeted badly by the flak as she went >over the target. >Sgt. James H. Wyant, the ball turret gunner was watching the massive flak >bursts breaking under and around him. It was the worst flak he had >experienced. It just "kept it up and kept it up." Two pieces of flak came >through the nose, knocking out the Plexiglas and a number of holes appeared >in the fuselage and wings. Sgt. Wyant assumed they would not make it >through >the flak. He rotated the ball turret to the exit position and went up into >the plane where he could get to his chute when he had to bail out. But, No. >884 did make it through the flak without serious damage. As soon as they >cleared the flak, Sgt. Wyant climbed back into the turret to watch for >German fighters. >In the meantime, the Lt. Crosa was continuing on a 360 turn along with >Klette. Although the crew was surprised that the squadron was making a turn >back towards the target, Lt. Crosa broke formation, along with 6-7 other >planes, before the crewmen understood what was happening and became unduly >concerned. >As Lt. Hatfield's plane, No. 061 ("General Ike"), flying in the No. 3 >position in the Second Element, came up on the target, the crew saw clouds >of flak and planes going down. Sgt. Emil A. Kubiak in the ball turret tried >to call out the flak bursts, but they were all over the place, too many to >take evasive action. "General Ike" made it to the target without major >damage. The togglier, Sgt. Vernon E.Thomas, triggered the bomb release on >the smoke streamer from the Deputy Lead. At the same time, the flight >engineer, Sgt. Victor Maguire, Jr., hit the salvo switch and Lt. Hatfield >pulled the bomb release in the cockpit. The bombs dropped! Just after they >dropped, a flak burst hit the bomb bay doors so that they would not come >up. >The tail gunner, Sgt. Alfred G. Miller, plugged in his "walk-about" oxygen >tank and came up to help Sgt. Maguire put out the fires and crank up the >bomb bay doors. The radio operator, Sgt. Vincent W. Karas, went back and >manned the tail guns while this was going on. >As the bomb bay doors were going up, the crew noticed a fire in the bomb >bays. Smoke started filling the plane, adding to all the confusion of the >flak bursting around the plane. Sgt. Maquire pulled wires rapidly, while >Sgt. Miller fought the fire. It soon was put out. >About that time Lt. Hatfield switched the radio transmissions from the Lead >plane into over the intercom. Klette's voice came through ordering the >squadron around again. Lt. Hatfield went part way around with Klette, but >broke formation about the same time as did the other planes in the >squadron. >"General Ike" made a tight 360 inside the other planes about a mile south >of >the target and started home alone. Shortly after leaving the target area >one >of the crew reported "bandits" closing in on them. However, the fighters >proved to be P-51 Mustangs. Over friendly Allied occupied territory a >couple >of other planes, with feathered engines, joined up with "General Ike" to >continue on back to Bassingbourn. >In the Third Element, Lt. Woolard's Lead plane, No. 959 ("Rhapsody in Red") >dropped on the Deputy Lead smoke streamer at 1037. However, the plane was >hit very hard by flak over the target. One engine was knocked out and >another was pulling only one half power. A piece of flak came up through >the >bottom and imbedded itself behind the pilot's seat. It had knocked out the >hydraulic system on the way up into the plane. With the loss of power, >"Rhapsody in Red" could not stay in formation and had to drop out to return >alone. >No. 880, flying in the No. 2 position with Lt. Schaft's crew aboard also >dropped with the Deputy Squadron Lead at 1037. The aircraft took only a few >minor flak hits over the target. Lt. Schaft made a 180 with Klette, before >deciding to break formation with the other planes. He formed up on some of >the other planes from the 324th that were still flying at the briefed >altitude and went on back to Bassingbourn without incident. >Lt. Steffen's plane, No. 772 ("Sweet Freda") flying on the left wing of Lt. >Woolard, dropped with the Deputy Lead at 1037 and took only a few flak hits >as she went over the target. Lt. Steffens stayed with Klette through the >first part of the 360. While doing so, he relayed what Klette was saying to >the rest of the crew over the intercom. They started screaming at Lt. >Steffens not to go around--no way would they go through that flak again. >He, >too, took their advice, broke formation about half way around to the target >and formed up with other 324th Squadron planes to head back to >Bassingbourn. >S/Sgt. Samuel S. Castiglione, togglier of the Lead of the Fourth Element, >No. 153, toggled with the Deputy plane at 1037. However, only 11 of the 20 >bombs dropped; nine hung up. No. 153 was hit hard directly over the target. >A shell exploded on the left side of the aircraft, between the No. 3 engine >and the cockpit. >Fortunately, the blast was directed downwards and did not throw flak into >the top turret. As it was, the right eardrum of the flight engineer, Sgt. >Robert H. Cleveland was blown out. The No. 3 engine was knocked out, a >number of holes appeared in the nose and wing, and a wing spar was almost >severed. A piece of flak went through the ball turret, barely missing the >gunner, Sgt. John F. Unger. Sgt. Unger soon became very cold from the >subzero wind blowing through the hole. Other flak hits damaged the tail of >the aircraft. >Lt. McEwen feathered No. 3 engine and in spite of the damage and the extra >load from the 9 hung-up bombs, was able to maintain altitude. They stayed >with Klette as he started the 360. The crew saw the Squadron Lead starting >a >360 and wondered why they were going around again, but before they got to >the panic stage, Lt. McEwen broke formation with the others and formed up >for the trip home. The hung-up bombs were pinned and taken back with them. >Most of the trip home was over Allied controlled territory where it was not >safe to jettison the bombs. >1Lt. Earl G. Pate's No. 844 ("Yankee Gal") was flying in the No. 2 position >of the fourth element. "Yankee Gal" took a lot of small flak hits as she >went over the target, but there was no serious structural damage to the >plane. The togglier, S/Sgt. George D. Kelly, toggled the bombs on the smoke >streamer of the Deputy Lead at 1037. >Lt. Pate followed on the right wing of McEwen half way through the 360, but >broke formation with the others, forming up on the first plane he saw from >the squadron for the trip home. He did not see McEwen's plane the rest of >the way back. Although the crew saw they were making a turn back towards >the >target, they did not get upset since they did not realize what was taking >place. "Yankee Gal" broke formation before the crew understood Klette had >ordered another run over the target. >Things were much more frantic among the crew of Tail-end Charlie, No. 936, >with 2Lt. Raymond W. Darling's crew aboard. They, too, were shaken by the >intensity and accuracy of the flak. However, the plane took only minor hits >as it went over the target and dropped with the Deputy Lead at 1038. As No. >936 came off the target, rallying to the right and out of the flak, the >crew >breathed a sigh of relief that they had survived. Then, Klette came in over >the radio ordering the Squadron to make a 360 and go back over with him. >Lt. Darling switched the radio to the intercom so the crew could be told >what Klette was ordering them to do. The crew became rather frantic, >including Lt. Darling. Lt. Darling then switched off the radio and asked >for >a vote as to whether they should go or not go. The crewmen were yelling >for >him not to go around and go through the flak again. The tail gunner, S/Sgt. >Wayne E. Kerr, came on the intercom and said "Lieutenant, I'm married and >have a little boy. I'm not going through that again. If you go around, I'm >bailing out." Lt. Darling told them "We're not going over again", banked >sharply to the right and peeled out of the formation. His crew was >ecstatic! >Some other planes formed up on No. 936 as they reassembled in the 91st >formation for the trip back. >When the other 324th Squadron planes broke formation, the tail gunner, >S/Sgt. Charles L. Coon, of the Lead plane came in on the intercom to tell >Klette the rest of the squadron had broken formation and that No. 588 was >now by herself. Klette then said, We'll put the pins back in the bombs and >go home." They then set out to catch up with the rest of the 324th Squadron >planes that were still at the briefed altitude. Klette was quiet the entire >flight back to Bassingbourn. >Strike photos from the 323rd showed good bombing results for the High >Squadron. However, because of the dense cloud cover results of the Lead and >Low squadrons was unobserved. It was learned later that 70% of the plant >had >been destroyed. Only six workers were killed. However, bombs did fall in >the >near-by residential area, killing 67 people and destroying 335 houses. >Seventeen German anti-aircraft gunners were also killed. >After rallying to the right off the target, the 322nd Lead Squadron made a >large oval 360 in an attempt to allow the 323rd High Squadron to complete >its second bomb run and get back into the formation. The rally point, near >Wurzburg, was adjacent to the southern arc of the oval. Those planes of >spread-out Low 324th Squadron planes still at the briefed altitude and with >the 91st Group formation also made the 360 with the Lead Squadron. However, >the 323rd was too late in coming off the target to get into its proper >position and followed along behind the rest of the Group. The Lead and Low >Squadrons made "S's" on either side of the prescribed return route to lose >time for the High Squadron to catch up. It never did. The 323rd Squadron, >however, was in radio contact with the Group Lead at all times and came >into >visual contact at 1300, before reaching the continental coast. >The 322nd Lead and 324th Low Squadron let-down was started at 1115, >leveling >off at 8,000 feet at 1146. Let-down resumed at 1225, with the formation >crossing the continental coast at 1354 at 3,000 feet and the English coast >at 1407 at the same altitude. The 323rd High Squadron crossed the >continental coast at 1359 at 7,000 feet and the English coast at 1410, at >4,000 feet. Aircraft of the Lead Squadron began landing at 1429 and were >all >down by 1501. The first 324th Low Squadron aircraft, No. 000 with Lt. >Moyer's crew, who had come back with the 305th Group, had landed at 1335. >The last 324th plane, No. 623, Lt. Nichol's plane, which had come back >alone >on two engines, touched down at 1530. >Although six of the twelve 324th aircraft had sustained major damage over >the target, all but two made routine landings at Bassingbourn. Lt. Woolard >in "Rhapsody in Red" was struggling to stay in the air as the plane crossed >over the English coast. One engine was out and another pulling only >one-half >power. Further, the hydraulic system was knocked out so that there were no >brakes. The landing gear electrical system was out and the wheels had to be >hand-cranked down. Lt. Woolard reached Klette on the radio, requesting >permission to land at Alconbury where the runways were longer. Klette came >back on the air and told him he would land at Bassingbourn or "not at all." >So it was on to Bassingbourn. With no brakes "Rhapsody in Red" took a "tour >of the base" when she landed. >The aircraft rolled off the runway veered to the right and headed across >the >grass towards her hardstand area, hitting the ground crew's tent with her >wing as she spun around, throwing part of the tent up onto the radio >antenna >like wash on a line. She finally came to a stop with only minimal damage to >the aircraft. The ground crew chief, S/Sgt. John A. Mabray, was taking it >all in, apparently more afraid of damage to "his plane" than concern for >the >flight crew. Lt. Woolard had done a good job of getting the plane down on >her, and his, final mission. >Lt. Nichol in No. 623 had made the flight back on two engines. Fuel was so >low by the time they neared Bassingbourn that he did not have time for a >normal approach so as to land into the wind. Lt. Nichol had to make a >straight-in landing with the wind. Even so, Lt. Nichol did an excellent job >of putting the underpowered damaged aircraft down on the runway. When the >plane came to a stop and crew was getting out, the Control Tower called for >Lt. Nichol to report to the tower immediately. He brushed off his "wings" >as >he went back anticipating being commended for making such a good landing >under the circumstances. Instead, he was chewed out for landing down-wind! >Shortly after debriefing was over and the 324th crews had returned to their >billets a voice came over the PA system ordering all 1st pilots to report >to >the Squadron Orderly Room immediately. Those that had undressed threw on >some clothes and went over. About 10-11 of the pilots went in to face a >fired-up Klette. He was livid and started in chewing them out in royal >order. He called them all "Yellow-bellied SOBs" for breaking formation. >Klette kept berating them, saying that the war would have been lost long >ago >if they had been running it. He said he didn't care if they had dropped >their bombs, he had ordered them to go over again with him. After several >minutes of chewing them out, Klette told the pilots he was going to >court-martial five of the ones he felt. most responsible for breaking >formation, although he did not name names. Further, he said he was adding >five missions to the 35-mission quota for all first pilots who had broken >formation. Although Lt. Gladitsch had a brief heated discussion with Klette >for giving the other pilots extra missions, Klette did not give the pilots >a >chance to talk or explain what had happened. He simply stormed out of the >meeting. The pilots were devastated. Some felt. it was a death sentence. >Several were only 2-3 missions away from finishing their tours. Some of the >last missions had been especially scary with heavy flak concentrations. The >formation also had been challenged by German Me-262 jet fighters on the >Dresden mission the 17th of April. >After Klette left, Lt. Auth, the Lead Pilot, got up and tried to calm the >others down. He told them "Don't worry about it. There will not be five >more >missions before the war is over. Five more missions has no meaning." He >also >told them Klette could not make the additions stick. Higher headquarters >would not approve such an increase in the required missions. >Klette was not satisfied with chewing out the pilots. He also called in the >Deputy bombardier, Lt. Weinstock, and went after him. Although Lt. >Weinstock >held Klette in very high esteem as a combat leader, they had had their >personal differences ever since Lt. Weinstock had arrived in the Squadron. >In spite of their personal differences, Klette had assigned Lt. Weinstock >as >Deputy bombardier for the Pilsen mission. The night before the mission, >Klette and his good friend 1Lt. David Bullen, a pilot in the 324th, were >having drinks in the Officer's Club. Lt. Bullen had finished his quota of >missions with the Dresden mission on the 17th of April. Klette tried to get >Lt. Bullen to fly the Pilsen mission, but he refused. >Then they started talking about the need for a good Deputy bombardier. Lt. >Bullen told Klette that he should take Lt. Weinstock since he was a former >instructor and one of the better bombardiers in the Squadron. So, Klette >put >him on the loading list for the Deputy Lead plane. >The morning following the mission, Lt. Bullen was leaving Bassingbourn to >return to the States. He mentioned to one of the other pilots he was going >down to headquarters to say good-bye to Klette before he left. The pilots >told him what had happened and warned him not to see Klette, since he had >been the one who had recommended Lt. Weinstock for the mission. Lt. Bullen >left Bassingbourn without saying good-bye. He never saw Manny Klette again. >None of the penalties was laid on. Pilsen was the last mission the 8th Air >Force flew. None of the pilots had to fly another combat mission. The >entire >incident was hushed up officially. Nothing that happened after the target >is >in the Squadron or Group records. Only Lt. Moyer's debriefing report >indicates he did not return "as briefed." The section of the debriefing >form >asking whether or not the plane returned "as briefed" was left blank on the >debriefing forms for the other planes. The debriefing records indicate that >Klette's Lead plane dropped at 1036, the same time as the rest of the >Squadron. The report states that l0 of the 19 bombs and the smoke streamer >were dropped on the target. >The remaining 9 were reported to have been brought home. However, surviving >crewmembers recalled that all 19 bombs and the smoke streamer were >returned. >They did not drop on the target and none was jettisoned. >The report of 2Lt. Edward J. Drake, a pilot from the 401st Squadron, flying >as formation coordinator for the Group in the tail gun position of the >Group >Lead clarifies little of what actually happened. Lt. Drake correctly >recorded that the 324th was "scattered in flak" at 1100, 24 minutes after >it >had dropped. At 1115 he could see neither the 324th Low Squadron nor the >323rd High Squadron. At 1200 Lt. Drake recorded only that the 324th >formation was a "little loose" and that "the Second Element is flying too >far out, probably because of battle damage." At 1230 he recorded the >squadron still flying "loosely", with the right wing of the Second Element >"too far out and back." At 1300 the Second Element was still "too far >back." >At 1330 the 324th formation was "not too good", with the Second and Third >Elements flying "much too far out." At 1400 all elements except the lead >"are out of formation." At 1430 the Second Element is "too far out" and the >Fourth Element "much too loose." He gave the lowest ranking of the three >squadrons to the 324th for formation flying on this mission. >Lt. Drake did not identify individual planes in his records. Apparently, he >was observing random reshuffling of those planes that were still at the >briefed altitude in some semblance of a combat formation. Lt. Drake >understandably was confused. Only eight 324th planes in the formation were >flying at the prescribed altitude. Three 324th planes came back alone or >well out of the formation: No. 884 (Lead, Second Element), No. 623 (Right >Wing, Lead Element) and No. 959 (Lead, Third Element). In addition, No. 000 >(Left Wing, Lead Element) joined up with he 305th Group for the return >flight. >However, Lead Squadron planes of the 379th Group may have also been flying >with the 324th planes, adding to the confusion. Thus, ended the war for the >324th Squadron. A wild and memorable mission. Crewmen who flew on the >Pilsen >mission remember it as one of the most chaotic and scariest of missions >they >had flown. Confusion was rampant over the target. With so many squadrons >making additional bombing runs (there were 52 separate squadron passes over >the target), German anti-aircraft fire against late-arriving squadrons was >becoming more and more accurate. A number of planes were going down or >dropping out of the formation. >This was the scene that greeted the 324th Squadron as it approached the >target. It is understandable that everyone was in a high state of anxiety. >All crews of the 324th acted correctly as they went over the target. The >Lead bombardier could not identify the AP and rightly did not drop. The >Lead >plane gave the proper signal for the rest of the squadron not to drop and >to >start a 360 by pulling up the bomb bay doors and turning to the right. The >Deputy bombardier thought he had identified the squadron AP and saw the >Lead >plane appearing to abort the bomb run at the same instant he and his plane >were hit hard by flak. That he dropped his bombs and smoke steamer was as >per SOP, which Klette admitted to him years later. Because of all the >confusion and heavy flak on the bomb run, toggliers in the other planes >were >concentrating on watching for the smoke steamer. When a streamer appeared, >they immediately toggled their bombs, as they were supposed to do. >What ensued following the bomb run is more questionable. Should Klette have >ordered a 360? Should the pilots have broken formation? Was Klette >justified >in threatening reprisals against the pilots? >One obviously has to be circumspect in addressing these questions from the >wisdom and safety of 50 plus years of hindsight. >The initial order for a 360 to make a second run over the target was >appropriate. The Lead plane had not dropped and Klette could only assume >the >others had not dropped either. Most other squadrons in the strike force >were >doing the same. But, should Klette have continued the 360 after being >informed that the other planes in the squadron had dropped? However, with >all pilots yelling over the radio at once, it is likely that Klette did not >understand that the other planes had dropped. He later said "I did not know >they had dropped." There is no way of knowing, of course, if Klette would >have eventually aborted the second run had the other pilots not first >broken >formation. >Should the pilots have broken formation? All except Lt. Nichol's plane had >accomplished their missions. Approximately 21 tons of bombs already had >been dropped by the 324th Squadron. Was it worth risking the lives of the >98 >crewmen in the squadron to drop an additional four tons on the airfield? As >it was, 26 crewmen in the other seven Groups were killed. This was a huge >price to pay for potential long-term post-war political reasons. The >reactions of the pilots were appropriate under the circumstances. Klette >told Lt. Pate years later, that if the squadron had not dropped on the >Deputy bombardier, they would have gone around with him. >The response of Klette to the pilots breaking formation is understandable. >A >highly respected Squadron Commander, Klette had flown more bombing missions >than any other pilot in the 8th Air Force. Klette displayed an intense >drive >to accomplish his missions. He obviously had been under considerable >stress >over the past several months, perhaps accounting for his short temper. >Klette also had an ego that matched his reputation. It was only natural, >therefore, that he would consider the fact that the pilots had broken >formation and refused to go around with him to be a reflection on his image >as a commander. >What is not clear, however, is how much of the ensuing tirade was an >impulsive verbal reaction simply to make a point and how much he really >meant to follow through with. That he was quiet and did not seem unduly >upset on the long flight back from Pilsen suggests much of the ranting >against the pilots and Lt. Weinstock was simply a way of venting his >frustrations. >In the final analysis, however, all the confusion and resulting actions on >the Pilsen mission became merely an unrecorded footnote in the history of >the 91st Bomb Group. No damage had been done. All crewmen returned. None of >the threats was carried out and Klette never brought up the incident again. >No more missions were flown in the two remaining weeks of the war. All that >mattered then was getting home. The events of the Pilsen mission soon were >relegated to the recesses of the minds of the crewmen, only to be brought >up >decades later during late night war stories at reunions of the 91st Bomb >Group. But, the story of how the war ended for the 324th Squadron needs to >be preserved. The chaotic events of that day should not disappear with the >participants. > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From LawrencFarrellJr@aol.com Sat Mar 23 09:45:39 2002 From: LawrencFarrellJr@aol.com (LawrencFarrellJr@aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 04:45:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sanford Smith Crew (359th BS-1943) Message-ID: Anyone left? Larry Farrell From Jprencher@aol.com Sat Mar 23 15:51:08 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:51:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen Message-ID: <7e.24cd3682.29cdfe6c@aol.com> Kevin, After reading your two very long interesting stories I can see why the 303rd was such a great outfit. I am very thankful I was assigned there instead of elsewhere. Our crew was not a democracy. It was a Dictatorship. We did NOT vote. The Pilot was the absolute boss and made the decisions. Any man on the crew who let fear cause him to get panicy,scream into the intercom and not do his job sure as hell did not belong on our crew. Our tail gunner was and is my very close friend and an excellent gunner but he did not have the training, knowledge, nor experience to know whether we should stay in formation or not. If he or any other man did not trust my judgement to get his ass back to Moleswotth, he was very welcome to get off our crew. Keep the Faith. To hell with peace, we were over there to Fight. Jack Rencher From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Sat Mar 23 17:46:57 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:46:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] mission 115 & 120 Message-ID: <000a01c1d292$bb38bb00$61bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D260.6FE5A960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Always like to check the new photos--These two raise a question. Crew of = 11. #120 Bill Heller - P.--- two navigators and a 2nd Lt. TG-O. was the = extra navigator a specialist in some type or phase of navigation?? The = observer - was he a specialist sent to observe the raids effectiveness, = - a damge expert - formation evaluater???? [ Is that a real = word????]---Maurice Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D260.6FE5A960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Always like to check the new = photos--These two=20 raise a question. Crew of 11.

#120 Bill Heller - P.--- two navigators = and a 2nd=20 Lt. TG-O. was the extra navigator a specialist in some type or phase of=20 navigation?? The observer - was he a specialist sent to observe the = raids=20 effectiveness, - a damge expert - formation = evaluater???? [ Is=20 that a real word????]---Maurice Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D260.6FE5A960-- From Jprencher@aol.com Sat Mar 23 19:09:25 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:09:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] mission 115 & 120 Message-ID: <39.2460a1dd.29ce2ce5@aol.com> Maurice, Bill Heeler should answer this one if he sees it. But if he doesn't I will Bill was a Sqdn Commander of the 360th and a very capable lead pilot. It was not uncommon for a pilot to ride tail gunner in the lead plane to observe the formation. My opinion Here. He was probably a copilot that wanted to get his missions in and get home to his wife and probably a lot better pilot than he was a tail gunner. You were right on about the two navigators. One could be a specialist like PFF, G Box , radar or checking someone out to become a lead navigator Sometimes they took an observer along that was a photographer or reporter or movie star and then you needed two body guards to keep him alive when he lost his Oxygen. Best Wishes, Jack From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 23 19:45:34 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:45:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen In-Reply-To: <7e.24cd3682.29cdfe6c@aol.com> Message-ID: Re: Kevin Pearson's submission regarding the "Pilsen Raid". Given the circumstances described in this account what would you have done? I was not there, so I can only try to imagine the courage, and fear that may have motivated the actions of the men who flew this mission so close to the end of the war in Europe. Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. *** Jim Walling's cousin, Gene Walling, was on the Mauger crew. He was KIA on this mission. From wheller@attglobal.net Sat Mar 23 19:52:15 2002 From: wheller@attglobal.net (William Heller) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:52:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen References: <7e.24cd3682.29cdfe6c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C9CDCEF.767BFED1@attglobal.net> Mr. President ... Jack, another very well written response by you. I believe many do not know that there is NO democracy in battle. You DO your job and you FOLLOW ORDERS. In training, before being assigned overseas, on a prctice formation flight, I turned around and my F/E and Top Turret Gunner, standing between the seats, was SOUND ASLEEP! I told him to go back and get the right Waist Gunner, who was the Asst. F/E and then told him that upon landing he will be OFF my crew. He was. My Training Squadron Officer did not even QUESTION my decision, nor discuss it. He merely assigned me a new F/E. The Asst. F/E did not remain as F/E and wsent back to his previous position. We got a new F/E who performed VERY well from then on and was a great assist in combat and in his crew management. Your response to the query was RIGHT ON (in today's street talk). Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, > After reading your two very long interesting stories I can see why the > 303rd was such a great outfit. I am very thankful I was assigned there > instead of elsewhere. > Our crew was not a democracy. It was a Dictatorship. We did NOT vote. > The Pilot was the absolute boss and made the decisions. Any man on the crew > who let fear cause him to get panicy,scream into the intercom and not do his > job sure as hell did not belong on our crew. Our tail gunner was and is my > very close friend and an excellent gunner but he did not have the training, > knowledge, nor experience to know whether we should stay in formation or not. > If he or any other man did not trust my judgement to get his ass back to > Moleswotth, he was very welcome to get off our crew. > Keep the Faith. To hell with peace, we were over there to Fight. > Jack Rencher From IBSPEC@aol.com Sat Mar 23 21:23:10 2002 From: IBSPEC@aol.com (IBSPEC@aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:23:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] April 24th, 1945 Raid to Pilsen Message-ID: <181.597f73c.29ce4c3e@aol.com> well said jack. that was the donald duck frollow leader training. From wheller@attglobal.net Sat Mar 23 21:46:14 2002 From: wheller@attglobal.net (William Heller) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:46:14 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] mission 115 & 120 References: <39.2460a1dd.29ce2ce5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C9CF7A5.BA6B709F@attglobal.net> Jack ... I did answer that query to the best of my recollection. After all, I have a license to forget ... it was dated in July of 1920! You are correct, that it was usually a copilot who filled the position as "Observer" in the Tail Gun position. However, there were some very well qualified Enlisted Men who were Tail Gunners and who filled the job. One such was the late Charles Patterson of the 360th and who flew many Observer positions in the tail. The main qualification was for this "Observer" to be able to "tune" his mind to the mind of the lead pilot ... so that they both knew what was an important observation ... at the time. The 359th had a copilot, former RAF ... the late Bob Halpin. He lfew many Observer positions and was considered by many to be very good at it. You may see him in many lead crew pictures. I soon hope our Esteemed Webmaster finds and shows all lead crew pictures. Our revered Mel Schulstad flew in such positions from time to time and he WAS a lead pilot. As an aside, Jack ... I do not know if you knew it, but you may see me in some lead crew photos at mission's end dressed in Class A Uniform (Battle Jacket, etc.) ... It was a quirk, if you will. I decided to be the best dressed POW if shot down. So I flew with my combat gear OVER my Class As and would take the top stuff off prior to deplanibng at the end of a mission. I even used a collar stay for God's sake! And, in two tours, did not have the misfortune to show such Class As off to the captors! I recall at a "luncheon" once in London, where I was invited and they had a captured Luftwaffe pilot and we gave him FULL dress Luftwaffe uniform to appear there. He was allowed quite a lot of freedom and I learned later that it was all a ploy. Here he was, in the middle of the war and in London watching all us 8th AF guys, in Class As enjoying a "luncheon" ... then he was allowed to write home as many letters as he wished! I spoke to him briefly ... and it was about our beginning to "flash" our landing lights off and on when a head-n attack was in progress. I asked him if he knew of our wing guns on the B17 and he replied, "Vee knew you did not hev such but vee ver not shure iff maybe today you DID put zem on your planes, so vee veered off of attack!" (he did speak a little English but he did have an Interpreter with him). Interesting, what? PS: Wearing the Class As UNDER my combat gear is what allows me to STILL wear my original A2 jacket because I had to get it a few sizes larger for then. Cheers, Jack. WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Maurice, > Bill Heeler should answer this one if he sees it. But if he doesn't I > will Bill was a Sqdn Commander of the 360th and a very capable lead pilot. It > was not uncommon for a pilot to ride tail gunner in the lead plane to observe > the formation. My opinion Here. He was probably a copilot that wanted to get > his missions in and get home to his wife and probably a lot better pilot than > he was a tail gunner. > You were right on about the two navigators. One could be a specialist > like PFF, G Box , radar or checking someone out to become a lead navigator > Sometimes they took an observer along that was a photographer or reporter or > movie star and then you needed two body guards to keep him alive when he lost > his Oxygen. > Best Wishes, > Jack From Wmjdallas@aol.com Sat Mar 23 22:06:20 2002 From: Wmjdallas@aol.com (Wmjdallas@aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:06:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #542 - 2 msgs Message-ID: --part1_b9.1db6395a.29ce565c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen, Jack. Cheers, Bill D. --part1_b9.1db6395a.29ce565c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen, Jack.
Cheers,
Bill D. --part1_b9.1db6395a.29ce565c_boundary-- From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Mon Mar 25 17:27:47 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:27:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]12 O'Clock High Stow Aways Message-ID: In the movie 12 O'Clock High (which I watched again over the weekend) it shows several ground personnel stowing away on planes so they could see for themselves what war in the air was really like. Did this ever happen in the 303rd? Given what you all have told me about strict disipline, I would be inclined to say no, but wanted to ask. I have heard about the frozen cow, but that doesn't qualify. Thanks for all the comments on the Pilsen raid and again, please note I did not write these stories, Lowell Getz did. Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Mon Mar 25 17:28:34 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:28:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lew Lyle Message-ID: Would any of you have Lew Lyles address and phone number? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Shaddoe2@aol.com Tue Mar 26 03:11:17 2002 From: Shaddoe2@aol.com (Shaddoe2@aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:11:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk -misc. flight info. Message-ID: <9e.240828ed.29d140d5@aol.com> --part1_9e.240828ed.29d140d5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, When I took over for Lt. Jokerst's crew, the navigator never went to eat. He would meet the crew at the airplanes and sometimes he was late. I fixed him up with a Dr. Perry to come and get him to go to the hospital to help him out on his health. He was very sick and ended up staying in the hospital for several days. After he came back he was always on time and in much better health, guess he was eating much better. On another instance we had a practice bombing run and Col. Travis was my copilot. I asked the navigator for a heading and he replied that he hadn't brought any maps, so I just flew a general route we had flown before, Col. Travis replied it was a fine trip. Because of paperwork mix-ups, it took me 38 missions to be credited for my 25 combat missions.. I believe our tail gunner on the 3rd of 13 missions was S/Sgt. "shorty" Appleton, when ever he was with us he would say "Capt. kick it up about fifty feet", he would see the fighters coming and by going up at the last minute the fighters would go right underneath our plane, this saved our crew many times, he was number one with us On my second tour of duty of 13 more missions, during the 3rd mission I flew with Col. Lyle, I believe it was just a check ride. Our tail gunner was Lt. Earl B. Douglas who later became an airline pilot. Many times the lead crews had two or three navigators and two bombardiers. All for now. cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_9e.240828ed.29d140d5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
When I took over for Lt. Jokerst's crew, the navigator never went to eat. He would meet the crew at the airplanes and sometimes he was late. I fixed him up with a Dr. Perry to come and get him to go to the hospital to help him out on his health. He was very sick and ended up staying in the hospital for several days. After he came back he was always on time and in much better health, guess he was eating much better.
On another instance we had a practice bombing run and Col. Travis was my copilot. I asked the navigator for a heading and he replied that he hadn't brought any maps, so I just flew a general route we had flown before, Col. Travis replied it was a fine trip. Because of paperwork mix-ups, it took me 38 missions to be credited for my 25 combat missions.. I believe our tail gunner on the 3rd of 13 missions was S/Sgt. "shorty" Appleton, when ever he was with us he would say "Capt. kick it up about fifty feet", he would see the fighters coming and by going up at the last minute the fighters would go right underneath our plane, this saved our crew many times, he was number one with us
On my second tour of duty of 13 more missions, during the 3rd mission I flew with Col. Lyle, I believe it was just a check ride. Our tail gunner was Lt. Earl B. Douglas who later became an airline pilot. Many times the lead crews had two or three navigators and two bombardiers.
All for now.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_9e.240828ed.29d140d5_boundary-- From ray.cossey1@virgin.net Tue Mar 26 13:44:43 2002 From: ray.cossey1@virgin.net (ray.cossey1) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:44:43 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spent ammo Message-ID: <000801c1d4cc$7ec45ee0$f5e8fc3e@RAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D4CC.626B9880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all Over the years I have undertaken a bit of 'aviation archaeology's at the = nearby, wartime 8th AF Rackheath aerodrome and, in the course of this = work, have found several 0.5 spent casings, lying close-by the dispersal = points and other hard-standings. This has always got me thinking as to = just how these spent casings got to be lying around these particular = places? I appreciate that it was standard procedure to 'test the guns' prior to = take-off on a mission, but surely all the spent casings were discarded = around the gunners feet, presumably to be collected, in bulk, at the end = of a mission and as part of the general aircraft tidying-up procedures? = If I am correct in this assumption, how come some of them ended up = discarded away from the aircraft, onto the ground immediately = surrounding the hard-standing? I can't imagine that the cases discarded = during the guns being tested were thrown from the aircraft; surely they = would have been too damned hot for that sort of action by the gunners? So gunners all, please enlighten me as to how these spent ammo cases = came to be found where I discovered them? I have no doubt I've missed = something somewhere and that there are many highly qualified aircrew out = there who can tell it as it was! Ray Cossey 303rd Honorary Member # 3 Norwich, England ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D4CC.626B9880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all

Over the years I have undertaken a bit = of 'aviation=20 archaeology's at the nearby, wartime 8th AF Rackheath aerodrome and, in = the=20 course of this work, have found several 0.5 spent casings, lying = close-by the=20 dispersal points and other hard-standings. This has always got me = thinking=20 as to just how these spent casings got to be lying around these = particular=20 places?

I appreciate that it was standard = procedure to=20 'test the guns' prior to take-off on a mission, but surely all the spent = casings=20 were discarded around the gunners feet, presumably to be collected, in = bulk, at=20 the end of a mission and as part of the general aircraft tidying-up=20 procedures? If I am correct in this assumption, how come some of = them=20 ended up discarded away from the aircraft, onto the ground immediately=20 surrounding the hard-standing? I can't imagine that the cases discarded = during=20 the guns being tested were thrown from the aircraft; surely they would = have been=20 too damned hot for that sort of action by the gunners?

So gunners all, please enlighten me as = to how these=20 spent ammo cases came to be found where I discovered them? I have no = doubt I've=20 missed something somewhere and that there are many highly qualified = aircrew out=20 there who can tell it as it was!

Ray Cossey

303rd Honorary Member # 3

Norwich, England

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D4CC.626B9880-- From Jprencher@aol.com Tue Mar 26 15:52:12 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:52:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spent ammo Message-ID: <36.2529f98c.29d1f32c@aol.com> Dear Ray, My Friend from the Mother country, I cannot speak for the other Groups, BUT as far as I know the 303rd never test fired the guns (on purpose) on the ground before a mission. We did test fire them over the channel on the way in. I suppose we had a firing range where they could be test fired, but not on the hard stands where the birds were parked. The shells you speak about were no doubt discarded by our wonderful ground crews when they cleaned up and patched up the birds up for tomorrow's mission. When and if we got back after a fighter attack they were all over the floor. Note: very rarely were they on the ceiling. They fell off after the slow roll was over. Also Ray: I don't remember them being hot. Warm maybe I never felt of them but each one only fired once and its life was over. Besides we never touched any thing without gloves. It was too cold. I have seen barrels that got so hot the bullets came out through the side of the barrel and that's no Bull (Not a cow either) You cannot get milk from a gentlemen cow. Don't try it it cannot be done. It's nice to hear from you Ray. Hello to your wonderful Mrs. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From ray.cossey1@virgin.net Wed Mar 27 17:25:08 2002 From: ray.cossey1@virgin.net (ray.cossey1) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:25:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spent ammo Message-ID: <000501c1d5b4$740356d0$1e24fd3e@RAY> My sincere thanks to all of my friends in the 303rd who kindly enlightened me regarding the spent 0.5 ammo cases I had dug up around the hardstands at USAAF base, Rackheath, England. I now feel my knowledge has been considerably enhanced and, in the light of your earlier response, I thought I'd risk sending you another poser! During the same aviation archaeology dig, I described earlier, we came across what someone described as 'an early radar set'. Whilst there was nothing resembling a cathode-ray tube, there was this metal box with an array of dials on it and a variety of female plug sockets. Assuming that our so-called 'expert' on the dig was correct, and the piece of equipment we unearthed was to do with radar, can anyone please enlighten me as to whether the USAAF did use any type of radar receivers and would these have been only ground-based, or were any sets ever installed within the aircraft? I know the RAF used radar detection devices, especially along our English Channel coastline, but I really don't know about any that might have been installed within the aircraft itself. So, over to you guys who were perhaps engineers at the time. What was the situation regarding radar during those wartime years? Ray Cossey Norwich, England From nmarrara@mail.mcps.org Wed Mar 27 17:21:32 2002 From: nmarrara@mail.mcps.org (Nancy Marrara) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:21:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ted Mishtal Message-ID: <3CA1FF9C.B60531E8@mail.mcps.org> I am interested in hearing from anyone that flew with my father, Ted Mishtal. He was part of the 360th Armfield Crew. He passed away in 1986, and he shared some information with me and my siblings. But, I would love to hear more. Thank you. You can e-mail me at nmarrara@mail.mcps.org Nancy From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 18:31:45 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:31:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spent ammo Message-ID: Hi Ray: There is a man living in St. Joseph, Missouri, who was a radar technician and knows a lot about it. He even installed the very first H2S radar in a DeHavilland Mosquito, I believe in 1942. Here is his address and phone, and I hope it helps. Good luck with the search. Kevin Ken Lux 1 Dundee Dr Saint Joseph, MO 64505-1817 (816) 279-8928 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Mar 27 18:45:47 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:45:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spent ammo Message-ID: Hi Ray, We did have radar on the B17s that we could use to aim bombs when we could not see the ground. We had a scope no bigger than about 6 inches in diameter so when you looked at a city the size of Berlin with it you couldn't expect it to pick out an aiming point the size of a smoke stack. We could bomb the north end of the city but there might be a school and an airplane factory there and we couldn't tell them apart. It was more accurate than the V-!s and V-2s. It worked well along a river or coast line as it picked them up very well. Hence we could use it as a navigation aid if we needed to when the ground was not available visually. I don't remember anything about the plugs on it. It was self contained in our aircraft. We did not need any ground stations or support to use it. We did need a Navigator or Bombardier who knew how to use it. Probably some of the pilots could turn it on and off but they were usually busy with the more simple tasks Especially when it was zero-zero, there was a stiff squirrely cross wind. There were 2 engines out on one side. You were real short on fuel, had a kidney stone and your girl friend was pregnant Remember too, we had no glide slopes in those days. There was one redeeming factor, however. You knew being short on fuel your engine fire would burn itself out shortly. Best Wishes, Humble & Modest Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th A.F. From spider@netzon.net Wed Mar 27 19:09:59 2002 From: spider@netzon.net (spider) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:09:59 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silk Map Message-ID: <000a01c1d5c2$ff533760$41bbbad0@cts> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D57F.EF6AC7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to all: I have been away for a while and remember a message about Escape maps = made of silk. I still Have mine which I was able to keep after I bailed = out of a P51 over Belgium. Also I recall Gary Moncur speaking about his Dad attending=20 Primary training in Hemet. We live in Hemet and the field still exists = and the have a nice Museum. Dick " Spider" Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D57F.EF6AC7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi to all:

I have been away for a while and = remember a=20 message about Escape maps made of silk. I still Have mine which I was = able to=20 keep after I bailed out of a P51 over Belgium.

Also I recall Gary Moncur speaking = about his Dad=20 attending

Primary training in Hemet. We live in = Hemet and the=20 field still exists and the have a nice Museum.

=20 Dick " Spider" Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D57F.EF6AC7C0-- From ray.cossey1@virgin.net Wed Mar 27 21:38:44 2002 From: ray.cossey1@virgin.net (ray.cossey1) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:38:44 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airborne Radar Message-ID: <000901c1d5d7$fb7aab90$99e8fc3e@RAY> Many thanks fellers, for the very usual info about wartime radar, especially that possibly used within aircraft. I've now got some useful leads to follow, when I get up tomorrow. But for now I'm off for an early bed, as we are a few hours ahead of you Yanks and we need all the beauty sleep we can get. Incidentally, Mr President Rencher, I exclude Theresa from that last comment as I know she's beautiful enough! Regards to you all Ray Cossey Norwich, England From wejones@megalink.net Wed Mar 27 21:40:28 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:40:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silk Map In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d5c2$ff533760$41bbbad0@cts> Message-ID: > Hi to all: > I have been away for a while and remember a message about Escape maps > made of silk. I still Have mine which I was able to keep after I bailed > out of a P51 over Belgium. I have my father's silk map. It is a wonderful thing. I took a couple pictures of it for those who might be interested. See: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/slkmap.html Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Wed Mar 27 22:43:03 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:43:03 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Test Range Message-ID: <001901c1d5e0$c20e6b40$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> Just checked the forum--this one must have got lost in kcyberspace--Here we go again. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: Test Range Jack R.-- Yes there was a test range if memory serves me correstly it was 25 yds.. Where it was I don't remember. several of us used it a time or two. this was after our 03 Springfields [30-06--which we never fired] were replaced by M-1 carbines 30 cal. When we could obtain some ammo we had to try them out. I think there was a shelter and posts for mounting the 50s. Don't recall of any metal mounts. There are MOS # for of armorers--MOS 511 & 911---from the personnel roster--- Bauuson, Marion R. [444th MOS 511]-- Lost Comrade search lists him as found---his name is not on the latest roster---Derr, Ray E. [358th MOS 911] who is a member . If any one is in contact with these two maybe they can answer some questions.--long shot isn't it! My curiousity is up--MANY 611 & 612 MOS numbers appear - I don't have a list with those numbers on it --------------Maurice J. Paulk From lvburl6@msn.com Thu Mar 28 05:47:05 2002 From: lvburl6@msn.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:47:05 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why B-17s of course Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1D5E9.B3DD3700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To All: Where the interior of the B-17's painted chromate green or left= bare aluminium? all, in part or none? To President Rencher: Who, pray tell, is the second greatest 4 engine p= ilot in the 8th AF? With regards, Lance Burrell ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1D5E9.B3DD3700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To All: &= nbsp; Where the interior of the B-17's painted chromate green or left bar= e aluminium? all, in part or none?

To = President Rencher: Who, pray tell, is the second greatest 4 e= ngine pilot in the 8th AF?

With regards,

Lance Burrell

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1D5E9.B3DD3700-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 28 04:12:12 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:12:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniforms, patches and emblems Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1D5E4.D3EA6C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What were the categories of uniforms for B-17 crews in the 8th AF ? What was considered by the military as appropriate �off base� clothing ( ie. Could an A-2 flight jacket be worn when on leave ? ) Were squadron, and Group patches part of a required uniform insignia, or unofficially sanctioned unit emblems? And, finally, did the 303rd have a group emblem? If so, is it shown on the 303rd website? Thanks. Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1D5E4.D3EA6C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What were the categories = of uniforms for B-17 crews in the 8^th AF ? What was considered by the military as appropriate = “off base” clothing = ( ie. Could an A-2 flight jacket be = worn when on leave ? ) Were = squadron, and Group patches part of a required uniform insignia, or unofficially = sanctioned unit emblems? And, = finally, did the 303^rd have a group emblem? If so, is it shown on the 303^rd = website?

Thanks.

Lloyd = Grant

Lakeland, = Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1D5E4.D3EA6C20-- From Jprencher@aol.com Thu Mar 28 16:09:17 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:09:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why B-17s of course Message-ID: <194.4831146.29d49a2d@aol.com> Lance, As best I remember they were most all left bare aluminum on the interior. Harry Grobrecht. also was one of the best two. Who was the very best, number one, The number one, will remain an unsolved question so long as us hairless apes inhabit this planet. Only two of us really knows the answer and we agree on nearly everything, but one of us is wrong on this one. Maybe we are like the shoe on my left foot. (Tied) No one will ever know because We won't tell. I promise. Best Wishes, Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Thu Mar 28 16:28:55 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:28:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why B-17s of course Message-ID: <43.8f2401d.29d49ec7@aol.com> Lance, At one time I thought it was a rare coincidence we were both in the same outfit. After reading some stories about the conduct of some of the other groups I now believe that probably the best 3 or 4 or even 10 were likely in the 303rd. Best Wishes Still, Jack From Pilot8thAF@aol.com Thu Mar 28 18:10:48 2002 From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com (Pilot8thAF@aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:10:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Two best Pilots in the 8th AF Message-ID: <160.b289177.29d4b6a8@aol.com> --part1_160.b289177.29d4b6a8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lance Jack Rencher is "right on". He and I were the two best "Damned Pilots" in the 8th Air Force (Maybe the entire Air Force) - there is no doubt that this is true.. We believe , however, that the 303rd had many other "great" Pilots but unfortunatly for them they failed to lay claim to being one of the "two "best". There may have been some "Great Pilots" in other units but it is now too late for others to make this claim since Jack and I made our proclamation several years ago and we defy anyone, after 60+ years to prove otherwise. We are sure of our facts and don't believe that it is necessary to defend or explain the merits of our claim. Being the first to make a public proclamation that we were the two best "Damned Pilots" is enough justification. We also refuse to define the "Best". Our use of the expression "Damned Pilots" should be obvious to those who know Jack and myself. The determination of whether Jack or myself was the "Best" Pilot is between ourselves and we will not enter into a debate with others on this subject. We welcome any other Pilots to join our elite duo in the "Best Damned Pilot" catagory but they will have to settle and make a claim for being the 3rd, 4th, etc. "Best Damned Pilots. Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_160.b289177.29d4b6a8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lance
Jack Rencher is "right on". He and I were the two best "Damned Pilots" in the 8th Air Force (Maybe the entire Air Force) - there is no doubt that this is true.. We believe , however, that the 303rd had many other "great" Pilots but unfortunatly for them they failed to lay claim to being one of the "two "best". There may have been some "Great Pilots" in other units but it is now too late for others to make this claim since Jack and I made our proclamation several years ago and we defy anyone, after 60+ years to prove otherwise. We are sure of our facts and don't believe that it is necessary to defend or explain the merits of our claim. Being the first to make a public proclamation that we were the two best "Damned Pilots" is enough justification. We also refuse to define the "Best". Our use of the expression "Damned Pilots" should be obvious to those who know Jack and myself. The determination of whether Jack or myself was the "Best" Pilot is between ourselves
and we will not enter into a debate with others on this subject.
We welcome any other Pilots to join our elite duo in the "Best Damned Pilot" catagory but they will have to settle and make a claim for being the 3rd, 4th, etc. "Best Damned Pilots.
Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_160.b289177.29d4b6a8_boundary-- From ray.cossey1@virgin.net Thu Mar 28 19:02:02 2002 From: ray.cossey1@virgin.net (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:02:02 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two best pilots in the 8th Message-ID: <002d01c1d690$a5347e00$cfe8fc3e@RAY> Mr President and Mr Gobrecht I have not the slightest doubt that you gentlemen are deserving of the title you have assigned to yourselves. However, I wonder what Bill Heller has to say on the subject? I really can't decide if you and Harry are making this claim 'tongue-in-cheek', or you really believe it? What a silly question........knowing both of you well, I realise, of course, it has to be true! Best regards my American friends Ray Cossey England From ray.cossey1@virgin.net Thu Mar 28 19:40:04 2002 From: ray.cossey1@virgin.net (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:40:04 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wartime food rationing Message-ID: <002e01c1d690$a684a4b0$cfe8fc3e@RAY> Maurice Paulk has mentioned wartime rationing in Britain. I have no doubt you also had such rationing over in the States, but you still found enough to send us Brits food parcels. You might be interested to know what were the levels of rationing we had to endure during those war years. Even so, as a child, I don't remember ever being hungry, although I have no doubt my parents were, giving us kids more than our designated share of what little there was to go around. The following extract is from a book called 'Keep Smiling Through', by Susan Briggs and gives you an idea of what the Brits had to get by on. ****************************** Rationing was first introduced in January 1940, and people were asking for it before it began. For once the government was well prepared and had had ration books ready since 1938. Butter, sugar, bacon and ham were the first goods to go 'on the ration' in January 1940, but things did not get really difficult until 1942. Behind the scenes ex�perts had already concocted a weekly 'Basal Diet', per person, of twelve ounces of bread, a pound of potatoes (precious symbol of national sufficiency), two ounces of oat�meal (Scotland's contribution), an ounce of fat, six ounces of vegetables and six-tenths of a pint of milk a day . . . with small supplements, including sugar of course. Fortunately Churchill detested even talking about such diets and the scheme was shelved. By August 1942 the sugar ration was down to eight ounces a week, per person and the fats ration down to eight ounces a week, of which only two ounces could be taken in butter. (Some people had never tasted butter before the war.) The meat ration was I shilling 2 pence a week and 2 pence of this had to go on corned beef. (Some people, a different segment, had never tasted corned beef before the war either.) Bread was never rationed until after the war-though whole-meal bread became a favourite propaganda theme (if never a favourite food). The most 'volatile' of all the food rations was cheese. (If you lived in Yorkshire you might be lucky enough to get Wensleydale on the ration.) The great wartime invention, borrowed from the Germans, was points rationing. This widened choice as much as it could be widened within a rationing system. You could even use your 'natural skill', and choose where to shop without being tied to the grocer where you were registered for basic rations. Not surprisingly, when sweets went on the ration in July 1942, the coupons were called 'personal points'. Of course, some articles off the ration could add an exotic touch to the menu. There was turbot in 1940 and whalemeat in 1942. And there was always rabbit . . . Tripe queues formed in Lancashire, while Londoners still rejected it, despite the Radio Doctor's assurance that it was neither 'boiled knitting' nor 'liver struck by lightning'. But even tripe suffered. One of the most pathetic wartime recipes was for 'tripe-and-no-onions'. As for eggs-in-shell, they were supplemented from 1942 by dried eggs from the United States, 'solid nourishment, easy to ship, cheap to buy'. 'Dried egg is not a substitute at all', as Lord Woolton assured the first unenthusiastic custo�mers. Gradually dried egg became accepted as a staple, and its sudden disappearance in 1945 when Lend Lease ended caused general consternation. From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 29 00:03:09 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:03:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Two best Pilots in the 8th AF In-Reply-To: <160.b289177.29d4b6a8@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1D68B.3385F5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe you have opened a flood-gate here, gentlemen. There may be several other categories ( nine ? ) left unclaimed. As Mr. Goebrecht explains; first claim is first coup. In the meanwhile, CHEERS to the two � Damn Best � pilots in the 8th Air Force ! Thank you both, personally. As for myself ( with appropriate awe for the pilot class claimants ) you are all the DAMN BEST men I have ever been privileged to know, and I am proud that my father was one of you. :-) Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. ( on behalf of Lt. L.H. Grant, and Capt. Donald E. Stockton, � et al.). ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1D68B.3385F5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Maybe you have opened a flood-gate here, gentlemen. There may be several other = categories ( nine ? ) left unclaimed. = As Mr. Goebrecht explains; first claim is first = coup. In the meanwhile, CHEERS to = the two “ Damn Best “ pilots in the 8^th Air Force ! Thank you both, = personally.

As for myself ( with appropriate awe for the pilot class = claimants ) you are all the DAMN BEST men I have ever been = privileged to know, and I am proud that = my father was one of you. J<= /span>

Lloyd Grant

Lakeland, Fl.

( on behalf of Lt. L.H. Grant, and Capt. Donald E. Stockton, = … et al.).

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1D68B.3385F5E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 09:18:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:18:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Two best Pilots in the 8th AF References: <160.b289177.29d4b6a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA43158.4ACADE99@attglobal.net> --------------8DC3C5D6A2399AEAB56DFF41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HG & JR ... As I was saying to Lindbergh one day, as Doolittle walked up to us ... we all agreed that we were ALL the best damned pilots in the world except for a fellow named Pontious ... And as Rickenbacker went by and waved to us he asked, "Have you guys decided yet who is the best among you?" Cheers! WCH Pilot8thAF@aol.com wrote: > Lance > Jack Rencher is "right on". He and I were the two best "Damned > Pilots" in the 8th Air Force (Maybe the entire Air Force) - there is > no doubt that this is true.. We believe , however, that the 303rd had > many other "great" Pilots but unfortunatly for them they failed to lay > claim to being one of the "two "best". There may have been some "Great > Pilots" in other units but it is now too late for others to make this > claim since Jack and I made our proclamation several years ago and we > defy anyone, after 60+ years to prove otherwise. We are sure of our > facts and don't believe that it is necessary to defend or explain the > merits of our claim. Being the first to make a public proclamation > that we were the two best "Damned Pilots" is enough justification. We > also refuse to define the "Best". Our use of the expression "Damned > Pilots" should be obvious to those who know Jack and myself. The > determination of whether Jack or myself was the "Best" Pilot is > between ourselves > and we will not enter into a debate with others on this subject. > We welcome any other Pilots to join our elite duo in the "Best Damned > Pilot" catagory but they will have to settle and make a claim for > being the 3rd, 4th, etc. "Best Damned Pilots. > Harry D. Gobrecht --------------8DC3C5D6A2399AEAB56DFF41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HG & JR ...

As I was saying to Lindbergh one day, as Doolittle walked up to us ... we all agreed that we were ALL the best damned pilots in the world except for a fellow named Pontious ... And as Rickenbacker went by and waved to us he asked, "Have you guys decided yet who is the best among you?"

Cheers!

WCH

Pilot8thAF@aol.com wrote:

Lance
Jack Rencher is "right on". He and I were the two best "Damned Pilots" in the 8th Air Force (Maybe the entire Air Force) - there is no doubt that this is true.. We believe , however, that the 303rd had many other "great" Pilots but unfortunatly for them they failed to lay claim to being one of the "two "best". There may have been some "Great Pilots" in other units but it is now too late for others to make this claim since Jack and I made our proclamation several years ago and we defy anyone, after 60+ years to prove otherwise. We are sure of our facts and don't believe that it is necessary to defend or explain the merits of our claim. Being the first to make a public proclamation that we were the two best "Damned Pilots" is enough justification. We also refuse to define the "Best". Our use of the expression "Damned Pilots" should be obvious to those who know Jack and myself. The determination of whether Jack or myself was the "Best" Pilot is between ourselves
and we will not enter into a debate with others on this subject.
We welcome any other Pilots to join our elite duo in the "Best Damned Pilot" catagory but they will have to settle and make a claim for being the 3rd, 4th, etc. "Best Damned Pilots.
Harry D. Gobrecht

--------------8DC3C5D6A2399AEAB56DFF41-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 17:56:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Louis Grandwilliams) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:56:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best ? Message-ID: <1459-3CA4AAEB-400@storefull-2351.public.lawson.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-927-209 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I Claim #1 in the luckiest category. Lou Grandwilliams --WebTV-Mail-927-209 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-927-209-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 18:12:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:12:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Rationing Message-ID: <000a01c1d74d$5987a500$39bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is the message that Ray Cossey and several others [England and US ] received.& was the basis for Ray's letter. The lot of us were aware of rationing. I my self didn't realize how deep it cut into the family meals even though I have eaten the last egg and last piece of meat in the house [Even though I protested.] Which shows the generousity of the people. "Liberated" sugar rations & Vienna Sausages were welcomed [Carried them in a navigators bag "liberated" from supply]---Maurice Paulk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To My friends on the British Isles- You will appreciate the Grace that I found in Taste of Home magazine. It once again shows the British people made so little out of a lot. To you non-British --You have NO idea of what rationing was or the inconvenience that it caused. ----- "We thank the Lord for what we have. For a little more we would be glad. But as the food's so short and times so rough, we thank the Lord we have enough." How authentic the presumably 1940 grace is I don't know --IT IS appropiate for the time I spent in England.. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 18:12:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:12:30 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing Message-ID: <000b01c1d74d$7451dc20$8524fd3e@RAY> Bill Heller If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over here. Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in Europe (if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the necessary oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever tasted and as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby bakery! So there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the plane and your English breakfast awaits! Warmest regards Ray Cossey PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make the air trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American tourist trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars into pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the 'euro dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our Queen's image on it!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 18:18:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:18:38 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] number one Message-ID: <000a01c1d74e$2697fb80$a77e79c3@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D756.87CCF4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WELL GARY, THANKS FOR YOUR EXPLANATION, AS I WAS NOT AWARE OF THE=20 HISTORY OF THE VERY PAST OF THE 303RD BOMB GROUP. NOW AT LEAST KNOW, HOW TO DRAW THE LINES. TO ME, IT WILL ALWAYS BE VERN MONCUR BEING NUMBER ONE, ALL YOU GUYS OF THE 303RD BOMB GROUP, VOTE FOR HIM. HAPPY EASTER TO ALL OF YOU. BEST WISHES TO ALL OF YOU. HANS REUSINK (YOU KNOW, THE DUTCH ARE RATHER STUBBORN, THEY WERE BORN = LIKE THAT. BEST WISHES AND A BIG HUG TO ALL THE LADIES. HANS REUSINK. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D756.87CCF4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

WELL GARY, THANKS FOR YOUR=20 EXPLANATION, AS I WAS NOT AWARE OF THE

HISTORY OF THE VERY PAST OF = THE 303RD=20 BOMB GROUP.

NOW AT LEAST KNOW, HOW TO = DRAW THE=20 LINES.

TO ME, IT WILL ALWAYS = BE VERN MONCUR BEING NUMBER ONE,

ALL YOU GUYS OF THE = 303RD BOMB=20 GROUP, VOTE FOR HIM.

HAPPY EASTER TO ALL = OF=20 YOU.

BEST WISHES TO ALL = OF=20 YOU.

HANS REUSINK (YOU = KNOW, THE=20 DUTCH ARE RATHER STUBBORN, THEY WERE BORN LIKE = THAT.

BEST WISHES AND A = BIG HUG TO=20 ALL THE LADIES.

HANS=20 REUSINK.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D756.87CCF4C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 18:32:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <000a01c1d750$3a14c600$2125fd3e@RAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D750.1FE82E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by = H.P.Willmott. ************************** Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement = within the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, = between the waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a = similar situation pre=ADvailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the = fuselage, par=ADticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated = by the crawl. General movement between various parts of the air=ADcraft = seemed to be deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and = awkwardness of doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of = physical discomfort, she paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. = Though they were prone to flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability = to survive attacks that took out huge sections of wings, fuselage and = tail. One Fortress survived an operation that resulted in over 2000 = bullet holes being counted in its wings and fuselage. Many aircraft = survived seemingly hopeless structural damage, while landing on = feathered engines was almost a routine occur=ADrence. There were many = instances of novice pilots or even untrained crewmen improvising a = flight home after the elim=ADination of the two pilots, though this = naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and capable of = absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and = de=ADserved her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its = weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness = and airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist = roles and in no less than eleven services. ************************** What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an = incident when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an = untrained crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a = non-pilot could land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's = statement, or is he taking artistic licence? Ray Cossey England ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D750.1FE82E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The following = text is=20 from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by H.P.Willmott.

**************************

Overall, none = of the=20 B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within the aircraft was = never=20 easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the waist gunners, was = by=20 swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar situation prevailed in = the=20 bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, particularly into the = rear=20 turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. General movement between = various=20 parts of the aircraft seemed to be deliberately impeded rather than = aided=20 by the size and awkwardness of doors. But what the aircraft demanded in = terms of=20 physical discomfort, she paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. = Though=20 they were prone to flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to = survive=20 attacks that took out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One = Fortress=20 survived an operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being = counted in=20 its wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless = structural=20 damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine = occurrence.=20 There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained = crewmen=20 improvising a flight home after the elimination of the two pilots, = though=20 this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to = fly and=20 capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured = and=20 deserved her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had = its=20 weaknesses, it is not altogether = surprising that=20 its overall robustness and airworthiness resulted in its seeing service = in=20 various specialist roles and in no less than eleven=20 services.

**************************

What I would=20 like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident when = a B-17=20 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained crewman' ? = Surely=20 the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could land it! Is = there=20 any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he taking artistic = licence?

Ray=20 Cossey

England

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D750.1FE82E70-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 21:56:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing References: <000b01c1d74d$7451dc20$8524fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3CA4E329.2EFF7541@attglobal.net> RC & TC, MBE ... Ray, how I wish we could take your most hospitable offer. Maybe one day. It is not in the immediate future, though. And yet England is our great love. We have spent MUCH time there. You may not be aware, but after the war (the one we won) I had been in England almost constantly. When we lived in Rome as Chief Pilot of the European Division of PAL, Ruth used to run up to London at the drop of a hat merely to shop. And we both LOVED the theatre and attended as many times as possible. Then, when I was with Lufthansa, I used to get to London very often. And back with PAL, I used to conduct my check rides at Heathrow and stayed between flights there as new pilots came up for their checkrides. Also had a Viscount checkout at Wisley, by my good friend, the late Dickie Reimer who was killed in that BAC 111 crash while on a test hop. And then, of course, with TIA and TA we had a main base in London. But, you know what? NEVER in all that time did I get to Molesworth. Feinted toward it a few times, but had to turn back. Once made a cabby very angry when he picked me up at the Bedford Rail Station and we were on our way and then .... I told him to turn back. He left me at a little Pub we used to like. I tipped him well due to the failure of the whole trip, but he was still angry with me. You made me HUNGRY with your description of a menu in your Email!!!! There is nothing like a proper English breakfast! Who knows? We may be that way one day, God and Mother Nature willing. We will certainly let you know if such obtains. We send our love. Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Bill Heller > > If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over here. > Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in Europe > (if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the necessary > oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever tasted and > as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby bakery! So > there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the plane and > your English breakfast awaits! > > Warmest regards > > Ray Cossey > > PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make the air > trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American tourist > trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars into > pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the 'euro > dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our Queen's > image on it!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:20:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:20:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suggestions for photos Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C1D746.0AD68CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I will have an opportunity in the next week to photograph the � Aluminum Overcast � both inside and out. If anyone has an area(s) of special interest that they would like pictures of, please contact me �off forum� at : palidin@worldnet.att.net . The Aluminum Overcast is a �G� model reconstructed by the EAA. It will be at the Sun & Fun fly-in April 7th � 14th here in Lakeland. Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C1D746.0AD68CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I will have an opportunity = in the next week to photograph the “ Aluminum Overcast “ both = inside and out. If anyone has an area(s) of = special interest that they would like pictures of, please contact me “off forum” at : palidin@worldnet.att.net . The Aluminum Overcast = is a “G” model reconstructed by the EAA. It will be at the Sun & Fun fly-in April 7^th – = 14^th here in Lakeland.

Lloyd = Grant

Lakeland, = Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C1D746.0AD68CC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:22:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:22:50 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing Message-ID: I just may take you up on your offer. I have been to many of the bases in East Anglia, mostly 1st and 3rd AD, but have not visited the ones near Norwich, like Bodney, Attlebridge, Honing, Great Ellingham, Shipdham, and Watton. I have been to Hardwick, Rackheath, and Martlesham, and most of the ones south and east. Do you ever go stomping around those old bases and if so, is there much left? Cheers, Kevin >From: "ray.cossey1" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:12:30 -0000 > >Bill Heller > >If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over here. >Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in Europe >(if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the necessary >oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever tasted >and >as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby bakery! So >there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the plane and >your English breakfast awaits! > > >Warmest regards > >Ray Cossey > >PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make the air >trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American >tourist >trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars into >pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the 'euro >dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our Queen's >image on it!!! > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:31:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:31:48 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: There is a famous picture of a B-17 with its entire nose blown open by flak, we've all seen it. I can not understand how that ship remained airborne. Kevin >From: "ray.cossey1" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by >H.P.Willmott. > >************************** > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar >situation pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, >par�ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. >General movement between various parts of the air�craft seemed to be >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine >occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and >de�served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles >and in no less than eleven services. > > > >************************** > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he >taking artistic licence? > > > >Ray Cossey > >England > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:30:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:30:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: Ray: One of the 8th AF medal of honor winners (post.)was a non pilot who flew the ship back to base when one pilot was killed and another seriously wounded. The ship circled the field several times and people in the tower tried to talke the plane down. A B-17 even took off to fly ghost. All of the crew bailed out except this one person, and the plane ended up crashing and the man was killed. I'm in my office today and don't have access to my books. I think his name was Trumpeter or Trumperer or something like that. I've spoken with many crewmen who tried to pick up some flying time when the ground crews would slow time engines. They wanted to be prepared for just such an emergency. I'll be interested to see the responses. I'm sending this to you directly because my facts are so few. Look up the story of Trumpeter, it is a very sad story. Kevin >From: "ray.cossey1" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by >H.P.Willmott. > >************************** > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar >situation pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, >par�ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. >General movement between various parts of the air�craft seemed to be >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine >occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and >de�served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles >and in no less than eleven services. > > > >************************** > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he >taking artistic licence? > > > >Ray Cossey > >England > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:42:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:42:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller Message-ID: Hi Bill: I asked you about this before, why you never went back to Molesworth, but I didn't get a response. I really would like to know why you couldn't go back. You can chew my hide and call me names, but why, why couldn't you go back. Was it bad memories, memories of lost friends. Were you afraid of something. Or did you just not have the time? Many veterans have gone back to their bases, but I have not heard any of them describe how they felt about it. If you don't want to discuss it, just don't reply. But I, and I am sure others my age, are curious. Yes, those English breakfasts are the best. Sausage, eggs, baked mushroom and tomatos. But the coffee and the coffee presses, I can't drink coffee now unles it is "pressed." I love all the Little Chefs in England with thousands of those little presses lined up on a wall! Thanks, Bill! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 > >RC & TC, MBE ... > >Ray, how I wish we could take your most hospitable offer. Maybe one day. It >is >not in the immediate future, though. And yet England is our great love. We >have >spent MUCH time there. You may not be aware, but after the war (the one we >won) >I had been in England almost constantly. When we lived in Rome as Chief >Pilot >of the European Division of PAL, Ruth used to run up to London at the drop >of a >hat merely to shop. And we both LOVED the theatre and attended as many >times as >possible. Then, when I was with Lufthansa, I used to get to London very >often. >And back with PAL, I used to conduct my check rides at Heathrow and stayed >between flights there as new pilots came up for their checkrides. Also had >a >Viscount checkout at Wisley, by my good friend, the late Dickie Reimer who >was >killed in that BAC 111 crash while on a test hop. > >And then, of course, with TIA and TA we had a main base in London. > >But, you know what? NEVER in all that time did I get to Molesworth. Feinted >toward it a few times, but had to turn back. Once made a cabby very angry >when >he picked me up at the Bedford Rail Station and we were on our way and then >.... I told him to turn back. He left me at a little Pub we used to like. I >tipped him well due to the failure of the whole trip, but he was still >angry >with me. > >You made me HUNGRY with your description of a menu in your Email!!!! There >is >nothing like a proper English breakfast! > >Who knows? We may be that way one day, God and Mother Nature willing. We >will >certainly let you know if such obtains. > >We send our love. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >"ray.cossey1" wrote: > > > Bill Heller > > > > If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over >here. > > Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in >Europe > > (if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the necessary > > oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever tasted >and > > as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby bakery! >So > > there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the plane >and > > your English breakfast awaits! > > > > Warmest regards > > > > Ray Cossey > > > > PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make the >air > > trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American >tourist > > trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars >into > > pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the 'euro > > dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our >Queen's > > image on it!!! > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 22:47:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:47:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suggestions for photos Message-ID: A couple of good pics of bomb releases and bomb shacles are all I would want. If there are bombs in the bombay, maybe you could talk them into opening the bomb bay doors. If there is any radio equipment in the Fort, a pic of the equipment, along with manufacturer and model number would be appreciated. Doing a little homework on the radios used. Have a great weekend and Easter, Lloyd. As they say in mejico, "Tengas un buen fin de semana y Pascua." Kevin >From: "Lloyd J H Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd-Talk@303rdbga. com" <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suggestions for photos >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:20:37 -0500 > >I will have an opportunity in the next week to photograph the � Aluminum >Overcast � both inside and out. If anyone has an area(s) of special >interest that they would like pictures of, please contact me �off forum� >at >: palidin@worldnet.att.net . The >Aluminum Overcast is a �G� model reconstructed by the EAA. It will be at >the Sun & Fun fly-in April 7th � 14th here in Lakeland. > >Lloyd Grant >Lakeland, Fl. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 23:23:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:23:33 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <20020329232333.PGWB24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Kevin, that is a sad story. I logged a good many hours in the right seat when slow timing an engine. I also did the same on two of the "cooks tour" flights following VE Day......Bill Runnels, bombardier > Ray: One of the 8th AF medal of honor winners (post.)was a non pilot who > flew the ship back to base when one pilot was killed and another seriously > wounded. The ship circled the field several times and people in the tower > tried to talke the plane down. A B-17 even took off to fly ghost. All of > the crew bailed out except this one person, and the plane ended up crashing > and the man was killed. I'm in my office today and don't have access to my > books. I think his name was Trumpeter or Trumperer or something like that. > > I've spoken with many crewmen who tried to pick up some flying time when the > ground crews would slow time engines. They wanted to be prepared for just > such an emergency. I'll be interested to see the responses. I'm sending > this to you directly because my facts are so few. Look up the story of > Trumpeter, it is a very sad story. > Kevin > > > >From: "ray.cossey1" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > > > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > >H.P.Willmott. > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within > >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the > >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar > >situation pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, > >par�ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. > >General movement between various parts of the air�craft seemed to be > >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of > >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she > >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to > >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took > >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an > >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its > >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural > >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > >occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, > >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and > >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and > >de�served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its > >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and > >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles > >and in no less than eleven services. > > > > > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident > >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained > >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could > >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he > >taking artistic licence? > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > >England > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 23:28:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:28:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best pilots Message-ID: <109.fef539c.29d652b8@aol.com> Brian McGuire, Dear Friend Brian and all you others who have become my X-friends. Be aware I was only talking about propeller driven 4 engine planes in the 8th Air Force. If you all (I'm from the South) Want to include all those other old fly boys, it's all right with me, I do think you should include some of the single and light twin types like maybe Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager. Also, How about Walter Pigeon, Lonesome Dove. Lone Eagle. Curtis Hawk and Jim Crow. More later. I'm invited out for soup tonight and I don't want to be so tired I fall asleep in it and drown. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 29 23:43:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:43:24 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <20020329234324.QWDB8815.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Ray, I do not know of an incident where a crew member, other than pilot landed the aircraft following the completion of a mission but it certainly could have happened. I tell you this at the risk of letting some of the air out of Bill Heller"s balloon, I landed our B-17 in Bangor, Main on the way to England and I didn't find it so difficult. Having said that, rest assured that I am making no claim to being one of the best two pilots. Ha Ha.......Bill Runnels, bombardier > The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > H.P.Willmott. > > ************************** > > > > Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within the > aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the waist > gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar situation > pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, par�ticularly into > the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. General movement between > various parts of the air�craft seemed to be deliberately impeded rather than > aided by the size and awkwardness of doors. But what the aircraft demanded in > terms of physical discomfort, she paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. > Though they were prone to flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to > survive attacks that took out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One > Fortress survived an operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being > counted in its wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless > structural damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, > though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and capable > of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and de�served her > almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its weaknesses, it is not > altogether surprising that its overall robustness and airworthiness resulted in > its seeing service in various specialist roles and in no less than eleven > services. > > > > ************************** > > > > What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident when > a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained crewman' ? > Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could land it! Is there > any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he taking artistic > licence? > > > > Ray Cossey > > England > > ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 01:26:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:26:54 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: Message-ID: <3CA5145E.F15271BB@attglobal.net> Anent this query whether a non-pilot member of the crew flew a plane home or landed it ... I wish to add the fact that I DID teach my Flight Engineer, the late Bill Huston, how to land the B17. On many practice flights we did this, unbeknownst (I hate that word, if it IS a word) to anyone else. He did a fine job of landing the plane, BUT, he NEVER had to do it in the normal course of our tours. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Ray: One of the 8th AF medal of honor winners (post.)was a non pilot who > flew the ship back to base when one pilot was killed and another seriously > wounded. The ship circled the field several times and people in the tower > tried to talke the plane down. A B-17 even took off to fly ghost. All of > the crew bailed out except this one person, and the plane ended up crashing > and the man was killed. I'm in my office today and don't have access to my > books. I think his name was Trumpeter or Trumperer or something like that. > > I've spoken with many crewmen who tried to pick up some flying time when the > ground crews would slow time engines. They wanted to be prepared for just > such an emergency. I'll be interested to see the responses. I'm sending > this to you directly because my facts are so few. Look up the story of > Trumpeter, it is a very sad story. > Kevin > > >From: "ray.cossey1" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > > > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > >H.P.Willmott. > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within > >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the > >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar > >situation pre?vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, > >par?ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. > >General movement between various parts of the air?craft seemed to be > >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of > >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she > >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to > >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took > >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an > >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its > >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural > >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > >occur?rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim?ination of the two pilots, > >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and > >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and > >de?served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its > >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and > >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles > >and in no less than eleven services. > > > > > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident > >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained > >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could > >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he > >taking artistic licence? > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > >England > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 03:08:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (knucklehead) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:08:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Best Pilots References: <20020329184948.231DA53FC5@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <009d01c1d798$316e5640$00863f94@d4i1r7> There is not a doubt in my mind that Harry Gobrecht had to be The Top. I rode with him on all of them. Tom Mays BTG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 03:14:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:14:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #547 - 14 msgs Message-ID: <31.24b53099.29d687a3@aol.com> --part1_31.24b53099.29d687a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question concerning "if other members could fly the B-17". John Scott-360th Sqd. made sure others could fly the plane. The Engineer gave us the most beautiful landing I ever experienced. We were still in the States on a night training mission,skeliton crew. I was the observer in the tail looking for other aircraft. It was getting late and John told us we were about to land. We did and it was the smoothest landing I ever experienced. until we slowed down on the runway. I asked Scott who made the landing? He laughted and said come on up here. I looked in the pilots seat and there was Irish with the biggest Irishmans smile Iv'e ever seen.I had good feelings after that. Bob Morris --part1_31.24b53099.29d687a3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question concerning "if other members could fly the B-17". John Scott-360th Sqd. made sure others could fly the plane. The Engineer gave us the most beautiful landing I ever experienced. We were still in the States on a night training mission,skeliton crew. I was the observer in the tail looking for other aircraft. It was getting late and John told us we were about to land. We did and it was the smoothest landing I ever experienced. until we slowed down on the runway. I asked Scott who made the landing? He laughted and said come on up here. I looked in the pilots seat and there was Irish with the biggest Irishmans smile Iv'e ever seen.I had good feelings after that.
Bob Morris --part1_31.24b53099.29d687a3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 04:46:49 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Proffitt) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:46:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: Message-ID: <002601c1d7a5$e95f5800$1507103f@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > Ray: One of the 8th AF medal of honor winners (post.)was a non pilot who > flew the ship back to base when one pilot was killed and another seriously > wounded. The ship circled the field several times and people in the tower > tried to talke the plane down. A B-17 even took off to fly ghost. All of > the crew bailed out except this one person, and the plane ended up crashing > and the man was killed. I'm in my office today and don't have access to my > books. I think his name was Trumpeter or Trumperer or something like that. > > I've spoken with many crewmen who tried to pick up some flying time when the > ground crews would slow time engines. They wanted to be prepared for just > such an emergency. I'll be interested to see the responses. I'm sending > this to you directly because my facts are so few. Look up the story of > Trumpeter, it is a very sad story. > Kevin > > > >From: "ray.cossey1" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > > > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > >H.P.Willmott. > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within > >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the > >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar > >situation pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, > >par�ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. > >General movement between various parts of the air�craft seemed to be > >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of > >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she > >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to > >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took > >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an > >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its > >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural > >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > >occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, > >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and > >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and > >de�served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its > >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and > >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles > >and in no less than eleven services. > > > > > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident > >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained > >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could > >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he > >taking artistic licence? > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > >England > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 04:52:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Proffitt) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:52:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: Message-ID: <002e01c1d7a6$c02b7120$1507103f@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1D77C.CEE33D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sir: My Dad, John S. Proffitt, Jr., was a pilot in the 303rd. Attached is an article I wrote about this incident for one of several publications in which I publish regular articles on auction law and ethics. I always do a special article on Memorial day in honor of our wonderful veterans. The book form which I gained the facts for this piece, "Valor At Polebrook," was very well done and I highly commend it. I think there is also a website for the book. Please let me know what you think of the article. Best regards, Steve Proffitt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > Ray: One of the 8th AF medal of honor winners (post.)was a non pilot who > flew the ship back to base when one pilot was killed and another seriously > wounded. The ship circled the field several times and people in the tower > tried to talke the plane down. A B-17 even took off to fly ghost. All of > the crew bailed out except this one person, and the plane ended up crashing > and the man was killed. I'm in my office today and don't have access to my > books. I think his name was Trumpeter or Trumperer or something like that. > > I've spoken with many crewmen who tried to pick up some flying time when the > ground crews would slow time engines. They wanted to be prepared for just > such an emergency. I'll be interested to see the responses. I'm sending > this to you directly because my facts are so few. Look up the story of > Trumpeter, it is a very sad story. > Kevin > > > >From: "ray.cossey1" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:32:47 -0000 > > > >The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > >H.P.Willmott. > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within > >the aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the > >waist gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar > >situation pre�vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, > >par�ticularly into the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. > >General movement between various parts of the air�craft seemed to be > >deliberately impeded rather than aided by the size and awkwardness of > >doors. But what the aircraft demanded in terms of physical discomfort, she > >paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. Though they were prone to > >flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to survive attacks that took > >out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One Fortress survived an > >operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being counted in its > >wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless structural > >damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > >occur�rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > >crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim�ination of the two pilots, > >though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and > >capable of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and > >de�served her almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its > >weaknesses, it is not altogether surprising that its overall robustness and > >airworthiness resulted in its seeing service in various specialist roles > >and in no less than eleven services. > > > > > > > >************************** > > > > > > > >What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident > >when a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained > >crewman' ? Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could > >land it! Is there any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he > >taking artistic licence? > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > >England > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1D77C.CEE33D80 Content-Type: application/msword; name="05-28-01 -art (Mem Day).doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="05-28-01 -art (Mem Day).doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAOAAAAAAAAAAA EAAAOgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAADcAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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/wMKAAD/////BgkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARhgAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCBEb2N1bWVudAAKAAAA TVNXb3JkRG9jABAAAABXb3JkLkRvY3VtZW50LjgA9DmycQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1D77C.CEE33D80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 05:38:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:38:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <140.bff6b4f.29d6a945@aol.com> Ray Cossey & Kevin Pearson, The text from the book B17 FLYING FORTRESS by H.P. Willmott and a couple of letters close by on my e-mail made me decide to answer one more time before I sign off. What I am gong to say is just my honest opinion and you are free to disagree with me. I think H. P. Willmott has only been in a B17 that was on display for people to walk through. I doubt he was ever on a crew or on a combat mission. The swaying rope-handled catwalks and bomb bays gave him away. The combat crew members could move from the nose to the tail if they needed to in about 10 seconds and never bump anything. Where in the world did he get they were "prone to flame" I have never flown a gasoline fueled plane that had less fire hazard than a B17. Easy to fly? Yes, and No. It was a forgiving plane to fly. It would be hard to find a plane with more gentle stall characteristics It was hard to fly well and hard to make very grease job landings. It did not have power steering and needed physical strength to man handle it especially in formation. It was strong enough and forgiving enough to be flown very poorly and get away with it. It bounced very easily on landings being a tail dragger. It took real skill to bounce a B24. There were many instances of novice pilot or even untrained crewman fling one home. I doubt that very seriously. They might have flow it home but landing it and walking away I doubt. 30,000 to 70,000 pounds of mass that had to be moving at between 85 and 110 miles per hour and getting it down on a runway and maintaining that speed with no training is just not going to happen. I tried hard to train members of our crew to land the bird. I thought the engineer and the bombardier would be the best prospects. The Engineer got so he could fly quite well but he never did make a landing I didn't feel I had to help him a bit. He came close and maybe I was just over protective. The bombardier could get it on final but from there on no way. We had one crewman who was a washed out cadet pilot. I very soon saw why. The tail,gunner, an old farm boy had the best progress If he wasn't so far away he would have been our best hope. The navigator would not even try. He also stated,"The aircraft had its weaknesses" It would be interesting for me if he told me what they were. I personally have looped them, done split S's Spins and Barrel roles. I was in one back in the waist and the pilot? put the bird in a screaming spiral pulling about 2 Gs. When I got to the cockpit he was laughing like an idiot and the air speed was on 360. He and I had words that were not any where near suitable for mixed company. The bird was red lined if you remember at 305. It had no damage that we ever found, When he did this our 10 man crew were all on board. Two of them were married. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 05:50:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:50:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <35.2463c52e.29d6ac43@aol.com> Ray I think he was taking "Artistic License" See my previous letter. No doubt a lot of Pilots trained some of their crew members to fly. We could not do it on missions or in formation of course but had lots of other times we could. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 07:19:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:19:55 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller References: Message-ID: <3CA5671A.F75B7E8C@attglobal.net> KP ... Anent your query, please believe me when I tell you I do NOT know WHY I could not return to Molesworth. And the strange part of this is that after the war (the one we won) there was not six months go by that I was not in the UK right up until my last trip circa 1988 or thereabouts. And sometimes I was there for days and weeks at a time, and also, one time my wife and I spent 50 days there, while we put the kids in a Nursing Home in Sussex Square and toured the entire UK by motor car (except Molesworth). Due to my work I was in England LOTS of times between the end of the war and the present time. When I used to fly over Molesworth when it was there, I requested permission from the British ATC to circle the area and show my passengers along with an explanation of why I was showing it to them. Believe me, the British ATC was HAPPY to let me go off airways to do this. They thought it GREAT! Also my work in Aviation v.v. the airlines, to include Conferences at the Palais de Chaillot in Paris as a delegate to ICAO Conferences, etc., and other work with IATA and IFALPA ... I was in England LOTS of times. Also, as Chief Pilot of the European Division of my airline, while living in Rome, I used to do my pilot checking at London Heathrow Airport. We also had a maintenance base there in consort with BOAC, which is now British Airways. I did feint toward Molesworth, as mentioned, and alomost got there. BUT, having given thought to the times I was there ... the fact that my late brother was there with me and the memories of so many fine men, to you, I MUST admit that I DO NOT KNOW WHY, but it occurred, nevertheless. By nature, I am not a very compassionate man (except for my wife and family) but there is SOMETHING there which would NOT allow me to go back. If none of this makes sense to you, I will understand. But, if you ever saw 12 O'Clock High and the scene with Dean Jagger bicycling out to the abandoned Base, and then the segue into the present time of the war years ... it MAY give you some insight into what I am telling you. THAT scene almost broke me down entirely. Until you have seen men, with whom you had breakfast, blown to smithereens off your wingtip, or be hit very badly with fighter attacks, and not survive, perhaps THAT may assist in your thinking of my situation. Also, coming back to a 20-man barracks, after a mission, to 16 EMPTY BEDS might aid a bit in the understanding. My memories of Molesworth and the gallant Officers and Men I knew ... were happy ones if you consider you can be happy in such times of war. But, they were, and I felt I did not want to change that. Perhaps now, that there is no more visible Molesworth as we knew it ... I could return. Not certain. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hi Bill: I asked you about this before, why you never went back to > Molesworth, but I didn't get a response. I really would like to know why > you couldn't go back. You can chew my hide and call me names, but why, why > couldn't you go back. Was it bad memories, memories of lost friends. Were > you afraid of something. Or did you just not have the time? Many veterans > have gone back to their bases, but I have not heard any of them describe how > they felt about it. If you don't want to discuss it, just don't reply. But > I, and I am sure others my age, are curious. > > Yes, those English breakfasts are the best. Sausage, eggs, baked mushroom > and tomatos. But the coffee and the coffee presses, I can't drink coffee > now unles it is "pressed." I love all the Little Chefs in England with > thousands of those little presses lined up on a wall! > Thanks, Bill! > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 > > > >RC & TC, MBE ... > > > >Ray, how I wish we could take your most hospitable offer. Maybe one day. It > >is > >not in the immediate future, though. And yet England is our great love. We > >have > >spent MUCH time there. You may not be aware, but after the war (the one we > >won) > >I had been in England almost constantly. When we lived in Rome as Chief > >Pilot > >of the European Division of PAL, Ruth used to run up to London at the drop > >of a > >hat merely to shop. And we both LOVED the theatre and attended as many > >times as > >possible. Then, when I was with Lufthansa, I used to get to London very > >often. > >And back with PAL, I used to conduct my check rides at Heathrow and stayed > >between flights there as new pilots came up for their checkrides. Also had > >a > >Viscount checkout at Wisley, by my good friend, the late Dickie Reimer who > >was > >killed in that BAC 111 crash while on a test hop. > > > >And then, of course, with TIA and TA we had a main base in London. > > > >But, you know what? NEVER in all that time did I get to Molesworth. Feinted > >toward it a few times, but had to turn back. Once made a cabby very angry > >when > >he picked me up at the Bedford Rail Station and we were on our way and then > >.... I told him to turn back. He left me at a little Pub we used to like. I > >tipped him well due to the failure of the whole trip, but he was still > >angry > >with me. > > > >You made me HUNGRY with your description of a menu in your Email!!!! There > >is > >nothing like a proper English breakfast! > > > >Who knows? We may be that way one day, God and Mother Nature willing. We > >will > >certainly let you know if such obtains. > > > >We send our love. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >"ray.cossey1" wrote: > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over > >here. > > > Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in > >Europe > > > (if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the necessary > > > oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever tasted > >and > > > as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby bakery! > >So > > > there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the plane > >and > > > your English breakfast awaits! > > > > > > Warmest regards > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > > > > > PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make the > >air > > > trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American > >tourist > > > trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars > >into > > > pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the 'euro > > > dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our > >Queen's > > > image on it!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 07:22:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:22:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: <20020329234324.QWDB8815.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3CA56799.29AA393D@attglobal.net> If Doris Day can do it, anyone can do it. Cheers! b.runnels@att.net wrote: > Ray, I do not know of an incident where a crew member, > other than pilot landed the aircraft following the > completion of a mission but it certainly could have > happened. I tell you this at the risk of letting some of > the air out of Bill Heller"s balloon, I landed our B-17 > in Bangor, Main on the way to England and I didn't find > it so difficult. Having said that, rest assured that I > am making no claim to being one of the best two pilots. > Ha Ha.......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > The following text is from a book entitled "B-17 FLYING FORTRESS", by > > H.P.Willmott. > > > > ************************** > > > > > > > > Overall, none of the B-17s were comfortable aircraft, and movement within the > > aircraft was never easy. Movement along the rear fuselage, between the waist > > gunners, was by swaying rope-handled catwalks, and a similar situation > > pre?vailed in the bomb bays. Certain parts of the fuselage, par?ticularly into > > the rear turret, could only be negotiated by the crawl. General movement between > > various parts of the air?craft seemed to be deliberately impeded rather than > > aided by the size and awkwardness of doors. But what the aircraft demanded in > > terms of physical discomfort, she paid back to her crew in rugged reliability. > > Though they were prone to flames the B-17s showed a remarkable ability to > > survive attacks that took out huge sections of wings, fuselage and tail. One > > Fortress survived an operation that resulted in over 2000 bullet holes being > counted in its wings and fuselage. Many aircraft survived seemingly hopeless > > structural damage, while landing on feathered engines was almost a routine > > occur?rence. There were many instances of novice pilots or even untrained > > crewmen improvising a flight home after the elim?ination of the two pilots, > > though this naturally was not that common. The B-17 was easy to fly and capable > > of absorbing massive damage: on these counts alone she secured and de?served her > > almost legendary reputation. Though the aircraft had its weaknesses, it is not > > altogether surprising that its overall robustness and airworthiness resulted in > > its seeing service in various specialist roles and in no less than eleven > > services. > > > > > > > > ************************** > > > > > > > > What I would like to know is whether any of you veterans recall an incident when > > a B-17 was brought home by either 'a novice pilot, or an untrained crewman' ? > > Surely the B-17 was not so easy to fly that a non-pilot could land it! Is there > any element of truth in the author's statement, or is he taking artistic > > licence? > > > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > > > England > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service > http://download.att.net/webtag From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 07:34:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:34:56 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: <140.bff6b4f.29d6a945@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA56A9F.B100CC3B@attglobal.net> Mr. President .... Jack Rencher ... Anent your item about the B17, I found your ideas and thoughts right on. I, too, have looped that old bird and done a hundred things you have not dreamed of (where did that come from?). As for some of the stupid pilots you mention (and there were ... and ARE ... many), the only pleasure I had as an airline Captain post-war was that I was not only a line captain, but also in management as Chief PIlot, Check Pilot and FAA (CAA) Designee Air Check Airman. What was that pleasure? If I said NO, that was the end of their silly flying career. We still have LOTS of those and if you are an airline passenger, you have flown with some of them. In 35 years of airline work world wide as a captain, never a copilot, I saw and experienced many a pilot who just could not find the seat of his pants with both hands in a lighted room! In every airline cockpit there are two pilots. A captain and a copilot. That should mean that THAT airline has 50% of its pilots as captains and 50% as copilots. NOT SO! Most have abut 25% captains, and the rest are wannabees! Even if they are in the left seat. Of course, I am not the final authority in ANY of this chatter. I only soloed in January of 1936 and only have 33,000 command pilot hours. So take what I say with a grain of gold dust. Cheers, Jack, ol' Buddy! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Ray Cossey & Kevin Pearson, > The text from the book B17 FLYING FORTRESS by H.P. Willmott and a couple > of letters close by on my e-mail made me decide to answer one more time > before I sign off. > What I am gong to say is just my honest opinion and you are free to disagree > with me. I think H. P. Willmott has only been in a B17 that was on display > for people to walk through. I doubt he was ever on a crew or on a combat > mission. The swaying rope-handled catwalks and bomb bays gave him away. The > combat crew members could move from the nose to the tail if they needed to in > about 10 seconds and never bump anything. Where in the world did he get they > were "prone to flame" I have never flown a gasoline fueled plane that had > less fire hazard than a B17. > Easy to fly? Yes, and No. It was a forgiving plane to fly. It would be > hard to find a plane with more gentle stall characteristics It was hard to > fly well and hard to make very grease job landings. It did not have power > steering and needed physical strength to man handle it especially in > formation. It was strong enough and forgiving enough to be flown very poorly > and get away with it. It bounced very easily on landings being a tail > dragger. It took real skill to bounce a B24. > There were many instances of novice pilot or even untrained crewman fling one > home. I doubt that very seriously. > They might have flow it home but landing it and walking away I doubt. 30,000 > to 70,000 pounds of mass that had to be moving at between 85 and 110 miles > per hour and getting it down on a runway and maintaining that speed with no > training is just not going to happen. I tried hard to train members of our > crew to land the bird. I thought the engineer and the bombardier would be the > best prospects. The Engineer got so he could fly quite well but he never did > make a landing I didn't feel I had to help him a bit. He came close and maybe > I was just over protective. The bombardier could get it on final but from > there on no way. We had one crewman who was a washed out cadet pilot. I very > soon saw why. The tail,gunner, an old farm boy had the best progress If he > wasn't so far away he would have been our best hope. The navigator would not > even try. > He also stated,"The aircraft had its weaknesses" It would be interesting > for me if he told me what they were. I personally have looped them, done > split S's Spins and Barrel roles. I was in one back in the waist and the > pilot? put the bird in a screaming spiral pulling about 2 Gs. When I got to > the cockpit he was laughing like an idiot and the air speed was on 360. He > and I had words that were not any where near suitable for mixed company. The > bird was red lined if you remember at 305. It had no damage that we ever > found, When he did this our 10 man crew were all on board. Two of them were > married. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 07:40:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:40:43 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: <35.2463c52e.29d6ac43@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA56BFB.8D17E158@attglobal.net> RC ... Reur message from Jack Rencher mentioning that "someone" might have taken "artistic license" anent the training of another crew member to land the B17 ... It must be remembered that I did have a lot of opportunities to do this with my F/E because I did so much training, check and other instruction piloting while at Molesworth. It was on these occasions that I taught Bill Huston to land the plane. It was ONLY to land it. Totally b y rote, as it were. It must be remembered that to pilot a plane is ONE thing but to sit there and think the entire operation through from takeoff to landing is another matter. That is why they call airline pilots who are in charge, the captain. BUT, as I have said, far too many are still only pilots. Cheers! (what a subject, eh?) WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Ray > I think he was taking "Artistic License" See my previous letter. No > doubt a lot of Pilots trained some of their crew members to fly. We could not > do it on missions or in formation of course but had lots of other times we > could. > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 13:04:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike Malerich) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:04:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot References: <002e01c1d7a6$c02b7120$1507103f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3CA5B7F6.48AC54A7@eosinc.com> He Steve. Great story! I have corresponded with your sister and your dad wrote me once. My father, Earl J. Malerich, Jr. was your dad's navigator for their first 10 missions. He was trained as a GeeH navigator and then was assigned to lead or deputy lead crews. Please give your sister and dad my best regards. Mike Malerich ----------------------------------------- Steve Proffitt wrote: > Sir: > > My Dad, John S. Proffitt, Jr., was a pilot in the 303rd. Attached is an > article I wrote about this incident for one of several publications in which > I publish regular articles on auction law and ethics. I always do a special > article on Memorial day in honor of our wonderful veterans. The book form > which I gained the facts for this piece, "Valor At Polebrook," was very > well done and I highly commend it. I think there is also a website for the > book. > > Please let me know what you think of the article. > > Best regards, > > Steve Proffitt > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 15:19:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:19:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: Dear Friend Bill, Do I envy you? Well, yes in many ways. Do I admire you? Amen Brother. Who's e-mail do I read first? That labeled WCH. I only have about 20,000 hours, most of it in a Bonanza and a Baron. After I returned from the great war (my Dear Friend calls it the one we won) I was assigned to the 5th Ferry Group in Dallas Texas. I think I checked out in and ferried every single and 4 engine bird (propeller driiven)we had on active duty at that time. including P51H's but excluding Navy planes except one PBY5A and some of the twins. I was original trained as a P38 pilot. I was retained at Williams Field as an instructor when I graduated from Cadets. The only way I could get out of that one was to go into 4 engine. I transferred to Yuma Arizona, a gunner training base. We flew B17s eight hours per day 6 days per week. There I flew about half the time as copilot and half as first pilot. From there I was sent to Salt Lake City to be assigned on a Crew. I had about 1000 hours of B17 time and half of it was air to ground gunnery at 150 feet with 22 student gunners aboard with no seatbelts (And no seats either) We made a steep 120 degree turn every 20 miles The wing stuck down about 50 feet. The cactus stuck up about 50 feet and I never once lost 50 feet in one of those turns, but I could see the thorns on the cactus without my bifocals I started flying at Sky Harbor in Phoenix Arizona in 1937. in an 2 cylinder bird called a C2. I washed airplanes and cleaned hangers for flying time. I am a licensed CAA(FAA now) Aircraft & Engine Mechanic (Aircraft and Power plant now) Mechanic.I flew 35 missions and never aborted. I flew about half my missions as copilot and half as first pilot. I flew several missions. as check pilot with crews on their first mission. I flew two B17s back to Molesworth they didn't even fix. They just put them in the scrap pile. While I am bragging my greatest accomplishment was just fate. I got assigned to the 303rd and have a Friend like Bill Heller. Incidentally I got kicked out of High School My 2nd year. I had primary at Tex Rankins (the world champion aerobatic pilot at the time) Primary school and flew a Stearman inverted from Visalia California to Tulairy California. I practiced inverted turns, spins snap rolls and stalls along the way lost nearly 10000 feet and when I rolled it right side up to land the top plugs were so badly fouled it would hardly run. I barely made it back to the field and the civilian line chief couldn't figure out what in the world happened to it. In Basic in a BT13 I could do an 8 point slow roll and a 180 degree turn at the same time and even my instructor couldn't do that one. OH how did I get into Cadets with only a year and a half of High School? I took a test. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 17:49:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:49:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Slow timing In-Reply-To: <20020330024723.E8BAC53E93@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Hi all- Bill Runnel's mention of flying on "slow timing" runs brings up a part of my uncle's past that continues to bother me...namely that I can't seem to figure out what he did for the first six weeks he was in England. He was a copilot with the 91st whose crew was assigned to duty on 3 April 43. All of the crew but he were flying missions within a couple of days. He didn't fly his first combat mission until 15 May and was killed with 5 other of his crew six days later. The only remaining survivor of the crew has assured me that he wasn't in the stockade or hospital or AWOL during that time, but he can't remember what my uncle was doing. One possibility suggested by the 91st-ers is that he was not needed on a crew while the first pilot was getting his check rides, but given the shortage of crews early in the war, that seems strange to me. I guess they were short on planes, too, though, so maybe it's true. If that's the case, it has been suggested that he may have been assigned to "slow timing" flights while he waited for his first pilot to be released for command of his own crew. Which brings me to my point (finally). I understand that slow timing was done on recently repaired/rebuilt engines before the plane was returned to mission status, correct? Can someone give me an idea of what a "slow timing" mission would be like? How long a flight? Who would be onboard and what would they be doing? And would an under-utilized copilot like my uncle be in the left seat or the right? Also, if any of you copilots out there had a similar experience, I would like to know what you did while you waited for assignment to combat. I imagine it would be tough seeing your other crewmates going into combat without you. It would have to be doubly tough if they got shot up or didn't come back. Comments? Thanks and Happy Easter to all, Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 19:31:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:31:26 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] HM Queen Elizabeth - The Queen Mother Message-ID: <002501c1d821$953f2b70$c024fd3e@RAY> The British nation is today mourning the death of this Gracious Lady, at the age of 101. I recall reading, somewhere, that her late husband, His Majesty King George the Sixth, visited the Molesworth base, during the war, to meet the men of the 303rd BG. Does anyone remember there being such a visit and was Her Majesty accompanying her husband on that occasion? Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 20:03:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:03:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] HM Queen Elizabeth - The Queen Mother In-Reply-To: <002501c1d821$953f2b70$c024fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: > The British nation is today mourning the death of this Gracious Lady, > at the age of 101. > > I recall reading, somewhere, that her late husband, His Majesty King > George the Sixth, visited the Molesworth base, during the war, to meet > the men of the 303rd BG. > > Does anyone remember there being such a visit and was Her Majesty > accompanying her husband on that occasion? I posted this picture once before, but see: http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/royvis.html There is also a short story on Gary's web page at: http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-royalty.html Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 20:19:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:19:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] HM Queen Elizabeth - The Queen Mother References: <002501c1d821$953f2b70$c024fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3CA61DD9.41977B12@attglobal.net> RC ... Anent your query about the Queen Mother visiting Molesworth ... be advised the entire family and the two Princesses attended. Our own revered "Bow Ur Neck" Stevens personally escorted the family around Molesworth with the Queen Mother on his arm. We are all saddened by the Queen Mother's passing. A very great Lady, loved by all. And (back to that traffic snarl I mentioned) during our smiling back and forth, she gestured at all the traffic and mouthed, "How can this be?" I am sure there were security personnel in the area even though we were chock-a-block in the traffic. WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > The British nation is today mourning the death of this Gracious Lady, at > the age of 101. > > I recall reading, somewhere, that her late husband, His Majesty King George > the Sixth, visited the Molesworth base, during the war, to meet the men of > the 303rd BG. > > Does anyone remember there being such a visit and was Her Majesty > accompanying her husband on that occasion? > > Ray Cossey > England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 20:28:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 20:28:54 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Slow timing Message-ID: <20020330202856.PZBM38.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Mike, I have no idea why your Uncle was delayed so long in flying his first mission. Our crew was in a state of training for two weeks and our co-pilot did not fly the first one. A seasoned pilot was in the left seat and our pilot was in the right seat. Regarding slow timing, we really didn't go any where but the length of the flight was generally four hours. A skeleton crew of four, pilot, co-pilot, navigator and engineer, handled the duty. The engine being checked ran at a specified RPM for the time of the flight. I don't know what that setting was but I am sure a pilot will provide this information. Slow timing was not a desirable duty for the crew, however my first time proved to be rewarding but that is another story. Hope this info helps...Bill Runnels, bombardier > Hi all- > > Bill Runnel's mention of flying on "slow timing" runs brings up a part > of my uncle's past that continues to bother me...namely that I can't > seem to figure out what he did for the first six weeks he was in > England. He was a copilot with the 91st whose crew was assigned to duty > on 3 April 43. All of the crew but he were flying missions within a > couple of days. He didn't fly his first combat mission until 15 May and > was killed with 5 other of his crew six days later. The only remaining > survivor of the crew has assured me that he wasn't in the stockade or > hospital or AWOL during that time, but he can't remember what my uncle > was doing. One possibility suggested by the 91st-ers is that he was not > needed on a crew while the first pilot was getting his check rides, but > given the shortage of crews early in the war, that seems strange to me. > I guess they were short on planes, too, though, so maybe it's true. > > If that's the case, it has been suggested that he may have been assigned > to "slow timing" flights while he waited for his first pilot to be > released for command of his own crew. Which brings me to my point > (finally). I understand that slow timing was done on recently > repaired/rebuilt engines before the plane was returned to mission > status, correct? Can someone give me an idea of what a "slow timing" > mission would be like? How long a flight? Who would be onboard and > what would they be doing? And would an under-utilized copilot like my > uncle be in the left seat or the right? > > Also, if any of you copilots out there had a similar experience, I would > like to know what you did while you waited for assignment to combat. I > imagine it would be tough seeing your other crewmates going into combat > without you. It would have to be doubly tough if they got shot up or > didn't come back. Comments? > > Thanks and Happy Easter to all, > > Mike McClanahan > > ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 30 23:58:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:58:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Slow timing Message-ID: <28.247135ab.29d7ab3b@aol.com> Mike McClanahan Each Group had a different C.O. so I must suppose they were all different. I can only speak for the 303rd but it might give you some ideas. I was a Copilot when I got there but I had about 500 hours first pilot time and about 650 hours copilot time when we got to England. My first pilot was Werner G. Goering. On our first mission I went with an old crew as copilot and their Copilot went with Goering. It was the worst crew I ever flew with. It was a rough mission. We had heavy losses from flak not fighters. although there were lots of fighters in the area they did no attack us. The crew I was on panicked. They were yelling and shouting at each other. The pilot said nothing. Being new I hesitated to say anything. It finally got so bad I got on the intercom and said "men just calm down and do the job you were trained to do. If the fighters hit us keep your guns hot and we'll fly this bird home. They shut up at once and we got home with only one feathered engine. The next mission I was back with Goering. Later on I flew with many first mission crews. I considered myself as the check pilot and took absolute charge. We left the copilot home or with another crew. If I didn't think they were ready to go alone. I or someone else would go with them the next time. I only had one new crew that I recommended another check ride after 2 missions. I flew in the right seat as I felt the pilot should stay were he was at home. both sides was at home to me. I have no idea why he would stay on the ground for 6 missions unless maybe the pilot was having trouble with high altitude formation or something. He could have been going to a special school like Gee box but I would think they would send both pilots and the navigator to that one. I doubt he would have been slow timing engines as first pilot but he might have been as copilot. When we installed a new or rebuilt engine we slow timed it for 4 hours before it went on a mission. Sometimes we slow time with a very skeleton crew. like a pilot and engineer. If the weather was bad we would take a navigator and maybe two pilots. and engineer. In bad weather I always liked the engineer to be there so he could read the airspeed to me on final and check the gear down with the hand crank. Some times we would take 2 new wing men so they could practice formation. If we were alone I would use this time to give our crew flying lessons. When slow timing I would take off on 3 engines with the slow engine at a fast idle and low manifold pressure. It would just poop along during the slow time but I don't remember the power settings. Probably about 1900 and 18 inches or so. I often tried to take off on two engines but never quite made it. I hope I have answered your questions. I just don't know why your copilot didn't fly for so long. Maybe his physical had expired or something like sick call with a sore something. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 01:11:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:11:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Emblem Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D81E.B9DD6F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To anyone who can help, I see what the 303rd BG emblem looks like from the web site, but can some= one tell me if the uniform patch looked just like this, or was it differe= nt? I would really like to see a picture of one if possible, or shown wh= ere to go look. =20 Thank you, Lance Burrell ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D81E.B9DD6F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To anyone who = can help,

I see what the 303rd BG emblem looks like from the w= eb site, but can someone tell me if the uniform patch looked just like th= is, or was it different? I would really like to see a picture of on= e if possible, or shown where to go look.

Thank you,

Lance Burrell

------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D81E.B9DD6F80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 01:19:49 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:19:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] British rations. Message-ID: <000501c1d852$28d12e80$57bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is going to sound funny so don't laugh too hard!!! In trying to put together a "story", "summary" of my time spent over seas for my son [he has th new CD "The Molesworth Story"]. The one strong memory is the first months after arrival that we were on British rations. I don't know the menu for the officers mess but can clearly remember the powdered eggs and fried "pork luncheon loaf'' [that is what the tin was marked --NOT Spam] for breakfast and mutton stew for noon & cold cuts for evening meal. - more luncheon loaf. I am thinking nine months. Anyone know if I am long or short on the time. I checked the site's search facilities --"unusual experiiences of the 303rd---- page 5." Could find no reference - l must have missed it. If this is too stupid a question ---Ignore me. The first month or two we at times worked nights and had "chow permits" enabling us to eat after hours. the main office force was busy typing up bin cards with name part no. and minimum and max number for each part. Regardless---THANK YOU-----Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 02:44:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:44:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: jack , i graciously appreciate you relating your great experience in this message. i am so greatly pleased that you and i live that i can know via this assn. and e mails you and bill and so many who sustained through the toughest missions to victory ,the only war that by has been won by usa. my short late tour experience surely was more livable as result of your experiences. cheers and best wishes for many more years of deserved happy living. spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 06:44:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:44:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] HM Queen Elizabeth - The Queen Mother Message-ID: <111.fdd6093.29d80a55@aol.com> Dear Friend Ray, The 303rd sends you condolences Ray We are sad with you. Yes, Her Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth, her Husband King George V! and Princess Elizabeth visited the 303rd at Molesworth on July 6, 1944. A formation of B17s flew overhead and the Royal Family inspected some of the Air crewmen after they landed. The visit included a mock briefing, inspection of living quarters and places of interest. Note this information is curtesy of our Historian HARRY GOBRECHT. I am preparing a letter to the Royal Family May peace be with you, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 07:29:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:29:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <32.24a2a806.29d814dc@aol.com> Bill Runnels, I have 2 questions for you please. (1) When you landed at Bangor had you had any instruction? (2) When you landed at Bangor were you handling the throttles? Thank You. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 13:23:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:23:27 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot Message-ID: <20020331132328.ZSM24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Jack, the only formal training was 10 hours in a J-3 while a cadet at Butler University. I did have some time in the right seat on crew training flights when my assignment as a bombardier was minimal. Our co-pilot liked to play poker and had a game going in the radio room on numerous occasions. Regarding the throttles, I did handle them and our pilot had great fun challenging me to watch the RPM'S on each engine. He made it as tough as possible in a fun sort of way. The crew had been informed that I would be landing the aircraft and they also had fun in offering advise on the way down. The only assistance he gave was to tell me when to level off before touching the ground as I had no idea how high the flight deck was when on the ground. By the way the landing was smooth as silk......Bill > Bill Runnels, > I have 2 questions for you please. > (1) When you landed at Bangor had you had any instruction? > > (2) When you landed at Bangor were you handling the throttles? > > Thank You. > Jack Rencher > > > > ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 15:35:02 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JOHN W FORD) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 09:35:02 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] QUEEN ELIZABETH Message-ID: <005201c1d8c9$a16a2a00$9cbd530c@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D897.55786760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I VERY WELL REMEMBER WHEN KING GEORGE V, QUEEN ELIZABETH, AND PRINCESS = ELIZABETH VISITED MOLESWORTH. AFTER THEY TOURED THE HEADQUARTERS = BUILDING AND WERE LEAVING IN THEIR CAR, I WAS STANDING NEAR THE DRIVEWAY = AS THEY PASSED. PRINCESS ELIZABETH WAS IN THE BACK SEAT ON THE RIGHT = SIDE. SHE LOOKED DIRECTLY AT ME, I GAVE A SNAPPY SALUTE AND WINKED AT = HER, SHE SMILED AND WINKED BACK. THAT WAS A BIG MOREL BOOSTER FOR ME. JOHN FORD ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D897.55786760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I VERY WELL REMEMBER WHEN KING GEORGE = V, QUEEN=20 ELIZABETH, AND PRINCESS ELIZABETH VISITED MOLESWORTH. AFTER THEY = TOURED=20 THE HEADQUARTERS BUILDING AND WERE LEAVING IN THEIR CAR, I WAS STANDING = NEAR THE=20 DRIVEWAY AS THEY PASSED. PRINCESS ELIZABETH WAS IN THE BACK SEAT = ON THE=20 RIGHT SIDE. SHE LOOKED DIRECTLY AT ME, I GAVE A SNAPPY SALUTE AND = WINKED=20 AT HER, SHE SMILED AND WINKED BACK.

THAT WAS A BIG MOREL BOOSTER FOR = ME.

JOHN FORD

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D897.55786760-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 19:29:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:29:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] QUEEN ELIZABETH Message-ID: <11f.e405682.29d8bda8@aol.com> John Ford, Thank you. I'm proud and elated to know someone who got winked at by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. I will tell my friends in Idaho They won't believe me but I will tell them anyway Best Wishes, Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 22:43:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Christopher Ryder) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:43:40 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D8C2.72BE1740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking among my fathers few war time papers, I found a short history of = the 303rd that was published in England, in January of 1945, honoring the= ir 300th mission. (entitled, THE FIRST 300-HELL'S ANGELS). I haven't seen= the other histories mentioned from time to time, so I don't know where t= his one fits in the scheme of things. Regardless, it has an introduction= by Col. Raper and mentions the squadron commanders Cole, Shayler, and Sh= eets. It also appears to contains some pictures of life on the base whic= h I don't believe are on in the web site. Does anyone remember this book= let "passed by U.K. base censors" and printed by William Clowes & Sons, L= td.? =20 Chris Ryder Portland, OR. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D8C2.72BE1740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Looking among = my fathers few war time papers, I found a short history of the 303rd= that was published in England, in January of 1945, honoring their 3= 00th mission. (entitled, THE FIRST 300-HELL'S ANGELS). I&n= bsp;haven't seen the other histories mentioned from time to time, so I do= n't know where this one fits in the scheme of things. Regardless, i= t has an introduction by Col. Raper and mentions the squadron comman= ders Cole, Shayler, and Sheets. It also appears to contai= ns some pictures of life on the base which I don't believe are on in= the web site. Does anyone remember this booklet "passed by U.K. ba= se censors" and printed by William Clowes & Sons, Ltd.?

Chris Ryder

Portland, OR.

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D8C2.72BE1740-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 22:50:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Christopher Ryder) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:50:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The First 300 booklet Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D8C3.610319A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After posting a message regarding this booklet, I discovered mention of i= t on the 303rd web page. Should have looked there first, I guess I just = didn't remember seeing it before. =20 Chris Ryder Portland, OR. ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D8C3.610319A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

After posting = a message regarding this booklet, I discovered mention of it on the 303rd= web page. Should have looked there first, I guess I just didn't re= member seeing it before.

Chris Ryder

Portland,= OR.

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D8C3.610319A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 31 22:47:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:47:08 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <20020331224708.QQAU8815.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Chris, I have one and I suspect That most of the former 303rd BG crew/staff members do also. I used inside of the back cover for personal notes etc. It is a fine publication......Bill Runnels, bombardier > Looking among my fathers few war time papers, I found a short history of the > 303rd that was published in England, in January of 1945, honoring their 300th > mission. (entitled, THE FIRST 300-HELL'S ANGELS). I haven't seen the other > histories mentioned from time to time, so I don't know where this one fits in > the scheme of things. Regardless, it has an introduction by Col. Raper and > mentions the squadron commanders Cole, Shayler, and Sheets. It also appears to > contains some pictures of life on the base which I don't believe are on in the > web site. Does anyone remember this booklet "passed by U.K. base censors" and > printed by William Clowes & Sons, Ltd.? > > Chris Ryder > Portland, OR. > ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag