From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 1 04:51:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 21:51:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweat out a mission Message-ID: <004501c2091f$936b15a0$9ef96741@default> Read this excerpt from an interview with Sam Wyrouck of the 351st BG from the Saints at War program. It said he was a turret gunner, Im assuming that's Ball turret. Wondered what routines other crews/individuals had. "We learned from another gunner from a different crew, Dick Kessner, how to really sweat out a mission.The night before we were scheduled to fly, we constantly stepped outdoors to observe the weather. We had to see for ourselves because the weather was a military secret, and we weren't privileged to see forecasts. Then we took turns to go to operations to see who was flying. Next some of us went to the flight line to see how much gasoline, and weight and number and type of bombs being loaded and how much machine-gun ammunition. We could then put this information together and could better guess what kind of a target and how far. Dick took this one step farther. He checked at operations to see if either of the two West Point Graduates was flying because he deduced that they were never sent on missions that were thought to be tough." Thanks Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 2 05:44:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:44:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweat out a mission Message-ID: <12f.123286ff.2a2afca2@aol.com> At one time I had a friend who was in the cattle business and had a herford bull that weighed over 4000 pounds. One of his neighbors came over and saw him and said "THAT IS A LOT OF BULL'" So is that story about Sweating out a mission. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 2 17:51:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:51:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #610 - 1 msg Message-ID: <9.28d6725e.2a2ba714@aol.com> --part1_9.28d6725e.2a2ba714_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right on J Prencher. Bob Morris --part1_9.28d6725e.2a2ba714_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right on J Prencher.
Bob Morris --part1_9.28d6725e.2a2ba714_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 2 20:18:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:18:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweating out a mission Message-ID: <001501c20a6a$414a6180$296dded8@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C20A37.F5589EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack, I have been in the bull business and agree that is a lot of Bull. In my = 30 missions I don't recall that i ever knew for sure that we were flying = the following morning until someone woke you in the very early hours, = you had time to get to the chow-house and briefing room,there the info = was target, weatherand some other details. loyd c ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C20A37.F5589EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jack,

I have been in the bull business and = agree that is=20 a lot of Bull. In my 30 missions I don't recall that i ever knew for = sure that=20 we were flying the following morning until someone woke you in the very = early=20 hours, you had time to get to the chow-house and briefing room,there the = info=20 was target, weatherand some other details.

loyd = c

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C20A37.F5589EE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 3 05:12:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 22:12:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweatin' Message-ID: <002501c20ab4$d542a1a0$4879e03f@default> Thank you Jack, you say its a LOT of Bull, but you didnt say its ALL Bull. I guess the part about where the target would be could be on anyones mind. > Read this excerpt from an interview with Sam Wyrouck of the 351st BG from >the Saints at War program. It said he was a turret gunner, Im assuming >that's Ball turret. >Wondered what routines other crews/individuals had. >"We learned from another gunner from a different crew, Dick Kessner, how to >really sweat out a mission.The night before we were scheduled to fly, we >constantly stepped outdoors to observe the weather. We had to see for >ourselves because the weather was a military secret, and we weren't >privileged to see forecasts. Then we took turns to go to operations to see >who was flying. Next some of us went to the flight line to see how much >gasoline, and weight and number and type of bombs being loaded and how much >machine-gun ammunition. We could then put this information together and >could better guess what kind of a target and how far. Dick took this one >step farther. He checked at operations to see if either of the two West >Point Graduates was flying because he deduced that they were never sent on >missions that were thought to be tough." >Thanks Bill Hoyt >Reply was >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:44:18 EDT >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Sweat out a mission >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >At one time I had a friend who was in the cattle business and had a herford >bull that weighed over 4000 pounds. One of his neighbors came over and saw >him and said "THAT IS A LOT OF BULL'" So is that story about Sweating out a >mission. > Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 00:09:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:09:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's References: <002501c20ab4$d542a1a0$4879e03f@default> Message-ID: <000d01c20b53$b137a400$6401a8c0@desktop1> These may have been asked before and answered, so I apologize in advance... Did pilots have any say in aircraft assignments, all things being equal ? If there were enough aircraft servicable could someone request a particular bird or was it determined by the operations folks ? I'm talking the norms here not the exceptions, (which the story Im mulling over certainly was an exception, in this case a situation where a senior officer planning a later day "tour" flight requested which A/C were flight-ready and picked and flew his own favorite despite ground crew protests that it was ailing , with predictably sour outcome...not sure any fatalities resulted but certainly an avoidable accident.) My skin is thick so if this is BS let me know. Id like to think that no one was sent up in a bird that the ground crew guys had reservations about. I mean, my dad said he used to try to talk his way into going up with slow-timing planes- to show the crews that he trusted the work he performed he'd put his own butt in them. Plus although he wasnt on a combat crew he could get in the air. Maybe more BS but what was your relationship with your ground crews? Would you take them up on this kind of offer or park them on the ground ? Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 3 08:55:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 03:55:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweatin' Message-ID: <42.2814ad3b.2a2c7b01@aol.com> Friend Bill Hoyt, Each Group and Each Air Force no doubt had some differences, so I can't say the Sweating out a mission story was all bull in the 351st B.G. but it would be in our 303rd. Our flight crews didn't have time to try to find all this out the night before a mission and no one on the base usually knew anyway WE NEEDED OUR SLEEP. The first we knew who was scheduled to fly today was when we were awakened early in the morning. Then we didn't know where we were going until the briefing. Sometime in the MIDDLE of the night or very in the early in the AM our operations and engineering were notified of how many planes and crews we were to put up and the fuel and bomb loads We didn't need to check the weather. We knew it was always the same. Foggy Enuf Said. Good night I won't even comment about the West Point men. They too were Americans just like the rest of us. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 03:29:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin Message-ID: <20020604022939.3896.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Jack,I am surprised to learn that you were not informed of your mission flight status until awakened early that morning. I was in the 360th squadron and we were assigned the day before. Operational crew names were posted in the squadron orderly hut early in the evening which enabled us to get a good nights rest. We were not informed of the target for the day until the briefing took place. It must have been tough to learn of your flight status the day of operation.....Bill Runnels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 05:34:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:34:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's Message-ID: Bill, Each plane a a form in it that was somewhat of a record of its condition and status. I think it was a form 5 but I am tired tonight and my mind isn't working well so I may have the wrong number. There was a little box just to the left of center near the top of the form. The box was about 5/8 inches square. If the airplane had nothing wrong with it which was rare the box was empty. If the bird had something wrong with it but was safe? to fly the box had a red diagonal in it with notations on lines close to the box as to what was not in good order. If the bird had a red cross in it the bird was grounded until the maintenance was done. I'm sure if the crew chief put a red cross in the box no pilot in his right mind would want to fly the plane even if he had several stars on his shoulders. Usually a crew was assigned a plane. If the plane was flyable and that crew was going on that mission they took (their) plane. If the crew was not flying that day some other crew might very well take it if it was needed. If a crews plane was not flyable and the crew was assigned to go on a mission they would be assigned another plane I think on our 35 missions we probably flew nearly every plane we had in our squadron but we were usually in VK-I-Item if it was not shot up to badly the day before. If we were not flying that day some other crew usually took it. We were supposed to have 25 birds and 25 crews. We rarely if ever had them When I was there we usually were to put up 12 or 13 planes and crews for a mission. We often had a problem getting 12 planes fit to fly by mission time. Most all of them would have a red diagonal. Sometimes one squadron would loan another squadron a plane or two for a mission. I would take any ground crew up to slow time or test a bird if he wanted to go. I test flew a lot of birds and often our engineering officer went with me as copilot and he was not a pilot but he could run the gear, flaps, cowl flaps, props, mixtures, switches, etc., just as well as a pilot. If we were landing in thick fog which was often on test flights or slow timing I would get our engineer to stand behind me and call out the air speed on final. I hope I have answered all you questions Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 15:34:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:34:28 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweatin Message-ID: <002101c20bd4$efb0aa20$d6cbe0cf@default> Thanks you guys, specially Lloyd and Jack for the quick response! How did you do your laundry while at Molesworth? Was there a facility onbase, could ya take it offbase, could ya do it yourself? Thanks Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 15:31:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:31:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CFC96EB.8884.CB3639@localhost> > Usually a crew was assigned a plane. If the plane was flyable and > that > crew was going on that mission they took (their) plane. If the crew > was not flying that day some other crew might very well take it if it > was needed. If a crews plane was not flyable and the crew was > assigned to go on a mission they would be assigned another plane I > think on our 35 missions we probably flew nearly every plane we had in > our squadron but we were usually in VK-I-Item if it was not shot up to > badly the day before. If we were not flying that day some other crew > usually took it. We were supposed to have 25 birds and 25 crews. We > rarely if ever had them When I was there we usually were to put up 12 > or 13 planes and crews for a mission. > We often had a problem getting 12 planes fit to fly by mission time. This is an interesting topic for me, and as it is for many such topics, it seems to be another situation where the answers are greatly dependent on what period of the war is considered. I've done a lot of reading through the microfilm and other 303rd records, and found that early in the war that every crew had their own plane and every plane had a crew, however in the second half of the war, there seemed to be about twice as many crews as planes. Early in the war, there seemed to be about 8 planes and 8 crews per squadron, and each squadron put up about 6 of the 8 when they flew. I have read about at least one period when a squadron was effectively grounded because it had no flyable planes at all, even though the squadrons might only fly 3 to 6 times a month. In the second half of the war, each squadron seemed to have 15-17 planes (minimum 12, maximum 19) at any one time, based on the monthly aircraft inventories. Each squadron flew more than 20 times a month, and put up 12 to 13 of it's 16 planes each time they flew. Ie there was obviously a lot more efficiency later in the war, in terms of getting the most use out of the available planes. Ie later in the war, approximately twice as many planes flew about 10 times as many missions. Probably a combination of many factors contributed to this. However relative to the topic of each crew having it's own plane, in the 2nd half of the war, it is clear that with roughly twice as many crews as planes, that while many crews seemed to have a plane that they flew for many of their missions, that it wasn't really their plane, since that plane was flying nearly every mission, and the crews were flying every other mission for the most part. Ie each plane had to have at least 2 crews associated with it and usually many. I'm kind of curious about how some crews seemed to be lucky enough to fly the majority of their missions on one plane, while other crews that I have researched seemed to fly a different plane every day. At first, I thought that perhaps it was some kind of seniority system, where the more experienced crews perhaps had their choice of planes, and the newer crews having to take what was left over, however I've run across a couple examples of crews starting with a plane and then flying 80% of their missions in that plane right from the start, even quite late in the war. When I first started doing research trying to find info about my father's missions, my first goal, (and this seems to be common) was to try to figure out what was the name of my father's plane. I soon found out that he didn't have a plane. And most of the planes he flew didn't have names. Only twice did he fly the same plane twice in a row. I have a whole bunch of pictures that he save of one plane, so I thought that that must be "his plane", but on researching, he only flew that plane twice. I found another picture of a plane that he labled as "my zebra", (zebra since it was the "Z" plane), but I found that he only flew that plane once. I did find one plane that he flew 7 times, but that plane was shared between many different pilots at the time, so it didn't seem to really be identified with any one pilot. Anyway, I too am interested in learning just who it was who made the choice of who flew what plane, and how and why the decision was made? And why is it that some crews were lucky enough to fly most of their missions on the same plane while other crews seldom flew the same plane twice in a row? I assume that the squadron Operations Officer must have had a good deal to say about this, but the formation sheets I have seen seem to be Group level documents rather than Squadron level, and the crew/plane info is typed in, so the decision seems to have come down from the group. However perhaps this is just the group making a decision based on the information given them by the Squadron Operations officer? Anyway, who made the decision, and did the assumption that a crew would probably do a better job flying in a plane they were familiar with enter into the decision? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 17:54:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:54:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sweatin' Message-ID: In several other bomb groups, most notably the 91st BG(H) at Bassingbourn, the 457th BG(H) at Glatton and the 44th BG(H) at Shipdham, crews sometimes knew the night before a mission who was flying the next day. When the field order was received at Group operations, the 44th ran up a flag on station for all to see. Crews would then check a bulletin board to see if they were posted for the next day's mission. In the 91st, when a field order was recieved, crews were also posted on a bulletin board. The Officer's Clubs at all three bases quit serving alcohol. Of course, if the field orders were not received until after crews bedded down for the night, they would not know until they were awakened for a mission. If anyone would like supporting documentation, let me know. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 18:02:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 12:02:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flimsies (sp) Message-ID: Does anyone have a picture of a flimsy, flimsie or however you spell it? Apparently, these were made of rice paper, and had sensitive information on them. I believe they were used for radio frequencies, and if shot down, crews were told to eat them. This has been discussed before in this forum, but I have never seen a picture in any of my many books. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 18:57:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:57:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flimsies (sp) Message-ID: <130.f3779fc.2a2e59a4@aol.com> I ate part of one once just to test it. It tasted like paper to me but I detected no ill effects at the time but now I notice I am getting very forgetful. If they would have made it out of Idaho Potatoes instead of rice I would probably be OK now. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 19:50:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:50:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin References: <20020604022939.3896.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CFD0C0E.6B78E144@attglobal.net> BR ... Have been following this chat about when crews knew of missions. As an Operations Officer of one squadron and the Commanding Officer of another Squadron (360th) ... there were times WE did not even KNOW of a mission OR anything about it until the Field Order came into Group Ops the night of the mission. We MAY have been alerted that a mission was in the offing or we MAY have been alerted that we would have an ME the next day (maximum effort). However we did NOT know WHEN or WHERE the mission would be until late the night before the mission when the Field Order came into Group Ops. And at THAT time, usually decided by the Ops Officer, he would list his crews for the mission because of WHERE it was going and what type of mission it may be. Many times both the Ops Officer and the CO, when at Group Ops when the Field Order came in ... would get their heads together and decide the combat order for those crews going on THAT mission. It may have been ... which we did WHEN WE COULD, if there was an alert the day or night before WE even KNEW of a mission that we did list those crews who may be on the mission. HOWEVER, the USUAL manner in which the crews knew it ... was WHEN THE CQ WOULD ENTER YOUR BARRACKS IN THE WEE HOURS, FLASHLIGHT GLOWING AND SHOUT .... "Drop you cocks and grab your socks, the following crews are up for a mission!" Cheers! WCH bill runnels wrote: > Jack,I am surprised to learn that you were not > informed of your mission flight status until awakened > early that morning. I was in the 360th squadron and we > were assigned the day before. Operational crew names > were posted in the squadron orderly hut early in the > evening which enabled us to get a good nights rest. We > were not informed of the target for the day until the > briefing took place. It must have been tough to learn > of your flight status the day of operation.....Bill Runnels > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 19:53:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:53:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's References: Message-ID: <3CFD0CAB.B3C69A25@attglobal.net> JR, aka Mr. President ... Must have been some other number, because a Form 5 was the form on which your flying time was recorded. You can still get a copy of it if you write to the records section of the Air Force. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill, > Each plane a a form in it that was somewhat of a record of its condition > and status. I think it was a form 5 but I am tired tonight and my mind isn't > working well so I may have the wrong number. There was a little box just to > the left of center near the top of the form. The box was about 5/8 inches > square. If the airplane had nothing wrong with it which was rare the box was > empty. If the bird had something wrong with it but was safe? to fly the box > had a red diagonal in it with notations on lines close to the box as to what > was not in good order. If the bird had a red cross in it the bird was > grounded until the maintenance was done. I'm sure if the crew chief put a red > cross in the box no pilot in his right mind would want to fly the plane even > if he had several stars on his shoulders. > > Usually a crew was assigned a plane. If the plane was flyable and that > crew was going on that mission they took (their) plane. If the crew was not > flying that day some other crew might very well take it if it was needed. If > a crews plane was not flyable and the crew was assigned to go on a mission > they would be assigned another plane I think on our 35 missions we probably > flew nearly every plane we had in our squadron but we were usually in > VK-I-Item if it was not shot up to badly the day before. If we were not > flying that day some other crew usually took it. We were supposed to have 25 > birds and 25 crews. We rarely if ever had them When I was there we usually > were to put up 12 or 13 planes and crews for a mission. > We often had a problem getting 12 planes fit to fly by mission time. Most > all of them would have a red diagonal. Sometimes one squadron would loan > another squadron a plane or two for a mission. > I would take any ground crew up to slow time or test a bird if he wanted > to go. I test flew a lot of birds and often our engineering officer went > with me as copilot and he was not a pilot but he could run the gear, flaps, > cowl flaps, props, mixtures, switches, etc., just as well as a pilot. If we > were landing in thick fog which was often on test flights or slow timing I > would get our engineer to stand behind me and call out the air speed on > final. I hope I have answered all you questions > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:20:16 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 12:20:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's References: <3CFC96EB.8884.CB3639@localhost> Message-ID: <3CFD12F0.532FC326@attglobal.net> BJ ... Crews flying their own planes was a great concept and a marvellous morale builder. However .... Many crews did not even arrive in a plane but came by ship. Others that did come by plane usually dropped their planes off at a central location ... perhaps Burtonwood or other places and then went to a Group which needed crews at that time, or to a Repple (Replacement) Depot to await assignment. Some crews were assigned planes when they arrived at their combat Base. Very FEW crews brought their planes to the Bases from which they flew combat. However, crews WERE assigned to a plane they could call "their own" and they could also name it. BUT, planes which were available were flown on missions with crews which were available. If a crew fortunate enough to actually have a plane of their own, they flew it when THEY were up for a trip and IT was flown by ANYONE when they were NOT up for a trip. We had to utilize those planes and those bodies which were available. Many factors went into such planning not the least of which was what the enemy might have done to that plane or that crew on any previous mission! In the censoring of letters it was noted many times when a crewmember might mention HIS plane or the plane which was named for HIS Sweetheart, Wife or Mother. Many times this was just letter-copy and NOT fact. If we had as many planes as were listed in those letters, we could have ended the war in six months! BUT, this DID give me an idea. Upon becoming a Squadron Commander, I arranged for an excellent nose-art artist in the Squadron to paint a name and or figure on ANY airplane SOMEONE wished. Pictures were taken and then THAT painting was washed off and the next fellow showed up with HIS name and art request. This was a very good morale builder I am told. The myth that many flew ONLY their own planes is just that, a myth. Perhaps Vern Moncur was the ONLY pilot abd crew (certainly in our Group) who flew his own plane on so many missions. But, such was a cut of luck ... as to how that plane and that crew faired on previous missions. Believe me we flew the planes which were AVAILABLE and used the crews which were AVAILABLE. If it obtained that this allowed one to fly HIS own plane on most of his missions it was merely a "luck of the draw" and he was very fortunate. This information is not to be known as "the way it was done everywhere" but as both an Ops Officer and a Squadron Commander, this was the way it was done where I was ... Cheers! WCH Bill Jones wrote: > > > Usually a crew was assigned a plane. If the plane was flyable and > > that > > crew was going on that mission they took (their) plane. If the crew > > was not flying that day some other crew might very well take it if it > > was needed. If a crews plane was not flyable and the crew was > > assigned to go on a mission they would be assigned another plane I > > think on our 35 missions we probably flew nearly every plane we had in > > our squadron but we were usually in VK-I-Item if it was not shot up to > > badly the day before. If we were not flying that day some other crew > > usually took it. We were supposed to have 25 birds and 25 crews. We > > rarely if ever had them When I was there we usually were to put up 12 > > or 13 planes and crews for a mission. > > We often had a problem getting 12 planes fit to fly by mission time. > > This is an interesting topic for me, and as it is for many such > topics, it seems to be another situation where the answers are > greatly dependent on what period of the war is considered. I've done > a lot of reading through the microfilm and other 303rd records, and > found that early in the war that every crew had their own plane and > every plane had a crew, however in the second half of the war, there > seemed to be about twice as many crews as planes. > Early in the war, there seemed to be about 8 planes and 8 crews > per squadron, and each squadron put up about 6 of the 8 when they > flew. I have read about at least one period when a squadron was > effectively grounded because it had no flyable planes at all, even > though the squadrons might only fly 3 to 6 times a month. > In the second half of the war, each squadron seemed to have 15-17 > planes (minimum 12, maximum 19) at any one time, based on the monthly > aircraft inventories. Each squadron flew more than 20 times a month, > and put up 12 to 13 of it's 16 planes each time they flew. Ie there > was obviously a lot more efficiency later in the war, in terms of > getting the most use out of the available planes. Ie later in the > war, approximately twice as many planes flew about 10 times as many > missions. Probably a combination of many factors contributed to > this. > However relative to the topic of each crew having it's own plane, > in the 2nd half of the war, it is clear that with roughly twice as > many crews as planes, that while many crews seemed to have a plane > that they flew for many of their missions, that it wasn't really > their plane, since that plane was flying nearly every mission, and > the crews were flying every other mission for the most part. Ie each > plane had to have at least 2 crews associated with it and usually > many. > I'm kind of curious about how some crews seemed to be lucky > enough to fly the majority of their missions on one plane, while > other crews that I have researched seemed to fly a different plane > every day. At first, I thought that perhaps it was some kind of > seniority system, where the more experienced crews perhaps had their > choice of planes, and the newer crews having to take what was left > over, however I've run across a couple examples of crews starting > with a plane and then flying 80% of their missions in that plane > right from the start, even quite late in the war. > When I first started doing research trying to find info about my > father's missions, my first goal, (and this seems to be common) was > to try to figure out what was the name of my father's plane. I soon > found out that he didn't have a plane. And most of the planes he flew > didn't have names. Only twice did he fly the same plane twice in a > row. I have a whole bunch of pictures that he save of one plane, so > I thought that that must be "his plane", but on researching, he only > flew that plane twice. I found another picture of a plane that he > labled as "my zebra", (zebra since it was the "Z" plane), but I found > that he only flew that plane once. I did find one plane that he flew > 7 times, but that plane was shared between many different pilots at > the time, so it didn't seem to really be identified with any one > pilot. > > Anyway, I too am interested in learning just who it was who made > the choice of who flew what plane, and how and why the decision was > made? And why is it that some crews were lucky enough to fly most > of their missions on the same plane while other crews seldom flew the > same plane twice in a row? I assume that the squadron Operations > Officer must have had a good deal to say about this, but the > formation sheets I have seen seem to be Group level documents rather > than Squadron level, and the crew/plane info is typed in, so the > decision seems to have come down from the group. However perhaps > this is just the group making a decision based on the information > given them by the Squadron Operations officer? > Anyway, who made the decision, and did the assumption that a crew > would probably do a better job flying in a plane they were familiar > with enter into the decision? > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:30:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:30:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid Atlantic Air Museum World War II Weekend Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6AB9B@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello all, It's that wonderful time of year again, when history comes alive as a genuine WW II Airfield and Battlefield are recreated in Reading Pennsylvania. There is no other show like this in the world. last year three B-17's and a multitude of other WW II aircraft were in the air the entire weekend! (Only 1 B-17G this year so far) plus a huge WW II encampment of American, German, English, French Resistance and Canadian re-enactor. Even a WW II Hanger Dance! Too much exciting stuff to list here, check out the website for information and photos from last years event. I will be there all day Sunday, anyone else planning on attending this years show? http://www.maam.org/maamwwii.html See ya on the flight line... Todd- (303rd BGA A637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:29:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Drewry, Duke) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:29:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin Message-ID: Mr. Heller You said: =20 "And at THAT time, usually decided by the Ops Officer, he would list his crews for the mission because of WHERE it was going and what type of mission it may be." What was the criteria used to decide who would fly the mission because of where and what type mission? Also was there a maximum number of days a crew could fly missions without a break? Thanks, Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:43:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:43:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's In-Reply-To: <3CFD0CAB.B3C69A25@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3CFCE00C.16247.1E8E907@localhost> > Must have been some other number, because a Form 5 was the form on > which your flying time was recorded. You can still get a copy of it if > you write to the records section of the Air Force. > Do you know by chance the address, or what base this records section might be found at? I'd really like to write and request my father's information, assuming that they would release it to family members. I was under the impression that all such records were destroyed in the St Louis fire at the National Archives bldg where they kept service records. Interesting to hear that there are other places where such things were kept. Is it possible that this information might be part of the Maxwell AFB collection? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:45:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:45:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin Message-ID: Bill, In your email you said that "the Ops Officer, he would list his crews for the mission because of WHERE it was going and what type of mission it may be." Can you explain why the target location and mission type would be a factor in crew selection? Other than the lead crew, I wouldn't think that there would be any other factors in crew selection. Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 20:58:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin In-Reply-To: <3CFD0C0E.6B78E144@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20020604195855.93385.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Bill, thanks for the input. I must have been lucky because I knew on all fourteen of my missions the night before that I would be flying the next day....Bill Runnels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 21:38:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:38:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Form 1A Message-ID: Not sure if this is the form you meant to reference, Jack,but Form 1A was the form signed by the person who flew the plane last. This form was handed to the crew chief after the mission for any work that might be necessary. Somehwere along the line, the pilot flying the ship that day received the Form 1A before take-off (not sure when) and had a chance to talk over the repairs with the crew chief before boarding the plane. Like I said, Jack, not sure if this is the form you mentioned. It is the only one with which I am familiar. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:53:31 -0700 > >JR, aka Mr. President ... > >Must have been some other number, because a Form 5 was the form on which >your >flying time was recorded. You can still get a copy of it if you write to >the >records section of the Air Force. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Bill, > > Each plane a a form in it that was somewhat of a record of its >condition > > and status. I think it was a form 5 but I am tired tonight and my mind >isn't > > working well so I may have the wrong number. There was a little box >just to > > the left of center near the top of the form. The box was about 5/8 >inches > > square. If the airplane had nothing wrong with it which was rare the >box was > > empty. If the bird had something wrong with it but was safe? to fly the >box > > had a red diagonal in it with notations on lines close to the box as to >what > > was not in good order. If the bird had a red cross in it the bird was > > grounded until the maintenance was done. I'm sure if the crew chief put >a red > > cross in the box no pilot in his right mind would want to fly the plane >even > > if he had several stars on his shoulders. > > > > Usually a crew was assigned a plane. If the plane was flyable and >that > > crew was going on that mission they took (their) plane. If the crew was >not > > flying that day some other crew might very well take it if it was >needed. If > > a crews plane was not flyable and the crew was assigned to go on a >mission > > they would be assigned another plane I think on our 35 missions we >probably > > flew nearly every plane we had in our squadron but we were usually in > > VK-I-Item if it was not shot up to badly the day before. If we were not > > flying that day some other crew usually took it. We were supposed to >have 25 > > birds and 25 crews. We rarely if ever had them When I was there we >usually > > were to put up 12 or 13 planes and crews for a mission. > > We often had a problem getting 12 planes fit to fly by mission time. >Most > > all of them would have a red diagonal. Sometimes one squadron would loan > > another squadron a plane or two for a mission. > > I would take any ground crew up to slow time or test a bird if he >wanted > > to go. I test flew a lot of birds and often our engineering officer >went > > with me as copilot and he was not a pilot but he could run the gear, >flaps, > > cowl flaps, props, mixtures, switches, etc., just as well as a pilot. >If we > > were landing in thick fog which was often on test flights or slow timing >I > > would get our engineer to stand behind me and call out the air speed on > > final. I hope I have answered all you questions > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 21:47:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:47:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin Message-ID: Just goes to show you, Bill Heller,that making a definitive statement about anything during the war is next to impossible, except that young men got killed. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 21:55:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:55:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] mission scheduling Message-ID: <003d01c20c0a$312c7a80$722664d8@computer> I have been following the various messages about when we were aware of mission scheduled and there was one way everyone on the base was aware, Early 1943 we would be awakened by the "putt-putts" (portable generators) being used to ready the planes. Our crew may not have been scheduled but we knew some were going. Oddly, I, for one, never got used to the engine noise. Ed Lamme' From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 22:54:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:54:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin References: Message-ID: <3CFD370D.239F4DD1@attglobal.net> Dave ... In an Email to a "Duke" in answer of many of the same queries you ask ... you will see most of the answers. If it does not show on your Email list, let me know and I will elucidate abit. Cheers! WCH "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Bill, > In your email you said that "the Ops Officer, he would list his crews for > the mission because of WHERE it was going and what type of mission it may > be." Can you explain why the target location and mission type would be a > factor in crew selection? Other than the lead crew, I wouldn't think that > there would be any other factors in crew selection. > > Thanks! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 22:48:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:48:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft choice & general q's References: <3CFC96EB.8884.CB3639@localhost> <3CFD12F0.532FC326@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <004001c20c11$a0f6c760$6401a8c0@desktop1> Jack Rencher and Bill Heller, (and others) thank you for your comments and answers to my questions. There is a curiousity though, as my father, although assigned to Engineering nearly all the war, flew over to the UK in 1943 on a B-17. (via Presque Isle Maine>Goose Bay Labrador>etc.) Since he was trained as a gunner as well as A&E mechanic specialties that may have had something to do with it the air transport to the UK, but I sometimes wonder about his assignment pre and post arrival in the UK. I know at that point they needed folks to keep the A/C flying as much as they needed aircrew, or perhaps he lost his medical. Bill Conklin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 22:52:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:52:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin References: Message-ID: <3CFD3681.D922C128@attglobal.net> Duke ... When, as Ops Officer or CO, and I would discuss which crews would go on which missions, I would considered several scenarios. For example if we had a NEW crew and it was a short mission, then THAT was the mission on which we decided to send that new crew so they could get a quick look at a mission. If it was a crew's LAST mission, we would sometimes take THAT into consideration. If it was a crew, the pilot of which we intended to make a Lead pilot ... we would sometimes send that crew as the Deputy Lead in the #2 position on the right wing of the leader. At other times, if we had crews with which we had had either formation problems or even disciplinary problems, we would attempt to put THAT crew on the #3 position on the left wing of the leader. There were MANY considerations when setting up a mission ... and not the least of which were some of the items mentioned above. When I was Ops Officer I did NOT use the system of sending the pilot of a new crew as copilot on his first mission. I was more or less a "get your feet wet right away" sort. Also, this did not sit well with the rest of the crew. Our training throughout was of a crew concept nature, and I felt splitting the crew even at THIS juncture, was wrong. It must be remembered that in THOSE days, things were different. The CO or the Ops Officer RAN things and he seldom had to pass anything by someone else or some "committee" or some such. Even when I took command I was told by the Group CO, NEVER to say "shit" out loud or else about 750 officers and men would squat and strain. In those days, what a CO said WAS DONE! I do recall, at times, being at Group Hqs when a Field Order came in ... and though I was CO, I would sit in the corner with my Ops Officer ... and we would actually discuss things as I have mentioned above. And it was at THAT time that even WE knew WHO was going on the mission. Then the paperwork was taken to the Orderly Room and the 1st Sargeant and his team would make up the combat orders involving each person going on a mission. Many times it was TWO IN THE MORNING before even WE knew WHO was going on a mission. As to how many missions a crew could go on, that depended upon the demand of the situation. Early in my tour(s) I can recall taking Benzedrine because I had been on THREE missions in a row. However, it was the command's responsibility to see that his personnel were utilized properly. This included even WHEN to send a crew to the Rest Home for the R&R. Such places were know also as Flak Houses because your sojourn there usually was after a very very tough mission or missions. And, as mentioned above, we DID position certain crews in a formation SOLELY based on any problems we may have had or been having with that crew. And please do not fall prey to that "myth" that sometimes "bad" crews or pilots were put in the "tail end Charley" position as disciplinary action. Such was NOT condoned in an organization under my command. Many times, I would put a GOOD formation pilot in the tail end charley position because I could DEPEND upon him NOT to straggle! Remember, it was the STRAGGLER which invited the Luftwaffe to hit YOUR formation! After perusing the above, please remember that this is the way WE did it. I cannot speak for other Squadrons or other Groups at other Bases. I hope I have answered some of your queries. Cheers! WCH "Drewry, Duke" wrote: > Mr. Heller > You said: > "And at THAT time, usually decided by the Ops Officer, he would > list his crews for the mission because of WHERE it was going > and what type of mission it may be." > > What was the criteria used to decide who would fly the mission because > of where and what type mission? Also was there a maximum number of days > a crew could fly missions without a break? > Thanks, > Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 4 22:57:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:57:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin References: Message-ID: <3CFD37C1.886E3892@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Anent your reply ... I can recall a saying that Mel Schulstad used to have when he heard all the "putt putts" start up so men could ready the airplanes and load the bombs. His statement was a terse, "Men are going to die today!" That is about ALL that you can say is "definitive." Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Just goes to show you, Bill Heller,that making a definitive statement about > anything during the war is next to impossible, except that young men got > killed. > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 01:56:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:56:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon Message-ID: I have been told that the air echelon of a group went separately to England, sometimes flying aircraft, and the ground echelon almost always went by boat. How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any air echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 01:51:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:51:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: In almost every heavy bomb group, I have had men tell me that when they first arrived at them Group, they were given the worst airplanes and the worst positions in the formation, i.e. purple heart corner. The rational, as explained to me by these vets, was that a new man's life was not as important as one who had more experience. I'm sure this happened earlier in the war than later. Did this practive take place within the Hell's Angel's? Bill Heller, what are your thoughts on this as a Squadron Commander? Thanks, guys! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 02:00:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 20:00:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) Putt Putts Message-ID: While at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford, I had the rare priviledge of hearing them start a putt putt. To me, it sounded like a big lawn mower engine at idle, until they plugged it into the plane and the plane drew an electrical load, then it sped up a little. Is this the same way you remember them? The putt putt I saw looked like it had been rebuilt a few times with a couple of state-of-the-art parts, so I'm not sure if I heard history, or a modern version of it. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) sweatin >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:57:21 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >Anent your reply ... I can recall a saying that Mel Schulstad used to have >when he heard all the "putt putts" start up so men could ready the >airplanes >and load the bombs. His statement was a terse, "Men are going to die >today!" > >That is about ALL that you can say is "definitive." > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Just goes to show you, Bill Heller,that making a definitive statement >about > > anything during the war is next to impossible, except that young men got > > killed. > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 03:19:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:19:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CFD12BF.9777.14E1126@localhost> > How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any > air > echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? The Moncur Crew went over on the Queen Elizabeth. Dad said that she was so fast the escort ships couldn't keep up, so they crossed the Atlantic without escort. They changed direction a few degrees every few minutes to avoid a fixed course and being intercepted by U-boats. (PS - Great stuff on the list today! Thanks to everyone!) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 03:58:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (303rd-talk) Putt Putts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020605025813.22214.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Kevin, The sound of the APU will always be remembered. It was the only sound breaking the early morning silence at plane side.....Bill Runnels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 04:28:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:28:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air crews via "boat" Message-ID: <001601c20c41$1d23fae0$ed9a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C20C17.33848860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking for Kuykendalls crew, we were at Hunter Army Field, Savannah, = GA awaiting assignment to a B-17 to fly to England. For some reason, our crew and about 9 or 10 other crews were pulled off = this assignment and processed to New York where we were then put on the = USS Monticello and went by convoy to Liverpool. A 21 day trip. My belief is/was that we were sent that way to fill the ship as we were = a handful of "fly boys: among hundreds of ground replacements who were = headed for the front lines. Fory Barton, RO ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C20C17.33848860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Speaking for Kuykendalls crew, we were = at Hunter=20 Army Field, Savannah, GA awaiting assignment to a B-17 to fly to=20 England.

For some reason, our crew and about 9 = or 10=20 other crews were pulled off this assignment and processed to New York = where we=20 were then put on the USS Monticello and went by convoy to = Liverpool. A 21=20 day trip.

My belief is/was that we were sent = that way to=20 fill the ship as we were a handful of "fly boys: among hundreds of = ground=20 replacements who were headed for the front lines.

Fory Barton, = RO

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C20C17.33848860-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 05:32:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:32:20 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon In-Reply-To: <3CFD12BF.9777.14E1126@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020604183220.008c76b0@ilhawaii.net> Our crew went over in the ile de France, Jim walling At 07:19 PM 6/4/02 -0700, you wrote: >> How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any >> air >> echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? > >The Moncur Crew went over on the Queen Elizabeth. Dad said >that she was so fast the escort ships couldn't keep up, so they >crossed the Atlantic without escort. They changed direction a >few degrees every few minutes to avoid a fixed course and being >intercepted by U-boats. > >(PS - Great stuff on the list today! Thanks to everyone!) >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 05:40:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:40:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon Message-ID: <112.127aff54.2a2ef035@aol.com> Kevin, Our crew went to England on an English ship The Aquatania. We went alone and changed course every few minutes Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 06:06:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: <26.28a84f58.2a2ef643@aol.com> Kevin, The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got tail end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst airplanes" Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end Charlie wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a new inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that some 80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and good crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down that Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained in aerobatics in B17s. Best Wishes, Jack. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 07:18:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:18:17 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice References: Message-ID: <3CFDAD28.CB50C1B3@attglobal.net> Kevin ... I would absolutley ABHOR such a practice and as near as I can gather (only have my Group and my Squadron to use as an example) it never occurred in the 303rd. As to worst or not worst airplanes, we attemped to maintain them in top order ... all of them ... and NO crew chief would be worth his stripes if he CONDONED such practice. The ONLY time I can even THINK a less-than-best plane MAY have been sent on a mission was in an ME (maximum effort) over which we, as a Group, had little control. Orders from top. As a Squadron Commander, I would not condone such practice either. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > In almost every heavy bomb group, I have had men tell me that when they > first arrived at them Group, they were given the worst airplanes and the > worst positions in the formation, i.e. purple heart corner. The rational, > as explained to me by these vets, was that a new man's life was not as > important as one who had more experience. I'm sure this happened earlier in > the war than later. Did this practive take place within the Hell's Angel's? > > Bill Heller, what are your thoughts on this as a Squadron Commander? > > Thanks, guys! > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 07:22:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:22:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice References: <26.28a84f58.2a2ef643@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CFDAE28.F96885F0@attglobal.net> JR, aka Mr. President ... I'll second that "acrobatic mention" ... some of us did it with a B17 without WANTING to ... PS: I looped one once in training, on purpose, and WAS SCARED TO DEATH! Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got tail > end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst airplanes" > Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end Charlie > wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a new > inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that some > 80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and good > crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down that > Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained in > aerobatics in B17s. > Best Wishes, > Jack. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 13:59:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 05:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Air echelon/ground echelon Message-ID: <20020605125927.5746.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1943369601-1023281967=:5726 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kevin wrote.... From: "Kevin Pearson" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:56:24 -0500 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I have been told that the air echelon of a group went separately to England, sometimes flying aircraft, and the ground echelon almost always went by boat. How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any air echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ My father (Al Hollritt 303rd/427th BT) was drafted into the USAAF and was trained as a flight engineer on B-25's and C-47's in Texas. Sent to florida after gunnery school and his final training on B-17's in Florida. They picked up a spanking new B-17G at Hunter Field GA and flew that up the east coast to Maine and accross the north route to Scotland. He said the fortress was loaded with supplies ranging from little boxes to spare tires and huge engine parts, you could hardly walk through the aircraft! They popped out of a soild overcast at the coast of Scotland and touched down in Nutts Corner. That's where they last saw thier new B-17G, his crew was then moved by truck and boat and then train to Molesworth. Once at Molesworth they were assigned numerous aircraft attached to the 427th Squadron. During the Summer of 1944 the flew war weary B-17's such as Betty Jane, Sweet Rose O'Grady and a very weary Flying Bison. Only when they acheved lead crew status in a few months did they see new H2X B-17G's... but that's beacause they were moved to Chelveston flying 305th BG aircraft as a 303rd crew. They had to wake very early and fly to Molesworth if they were leading the 303rd on a raid. Usually they were met by Boo's in the mess hall because crews knew they would fly no matter what weather was going to be over the target now that the Pathfinders arrived! Todd- (303rdBGA A637) --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup --0-1943369601-1023281967=:5726 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Kevin wrote....

From: "Kevin Pearson"
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:56:24 -0500
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I have been told that the air echelon of a group went separately to England,
sometimes flying aircraft, and the ground echelon almost always went by
boat. How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any air
echelon folks that went to the UK by boat?
Kevin

_________________________________________________________________

My father (Al Hollritt 303rd/427th BT) was drafted into the USAAF and was trained as a flight engineer on B-25's and C-47's in Texas. Sent to florida after gunnery school and his final training on B-17's in Florida. They picked up a spanking new B-17G at Hunter Field GA and flew that up the east coast to Maine and accross the north route to Scotland. He said the fortress was loaded with supplies ranging from little boxes to spare tires and huge engine parts, you could hardly walk through the aircraft! They popped out of a soild overcast at the coast of Scotland and touched down in Nutts Corner. That's where they last saw thier new B-17G, his crew was then moved by truck and boat and then train to Molesworth.

Once at Molesworth they were assigned numerous aircraft attached to the 427th Squadron. During the Summer of 1944 the flew war weary B-17's such as Betty Jane, Sweet Rose O'Grady and a very weary Flying Bison. Only when they acheved lead crew status in a few months did they see new H2X B-17G's... but that's beacause they were moved to Chelveston flying 305th BG aircraft as a 303rd crew. They had to wake very early and fly to Molesworth if they were leading the 303rd on a raid. Usually they were met by Boo's in the mess hall because crews knew they would fly no matter what weather was going to be over the target now that the Pathfinders arrived!

Todd- (303rdBGA A637)

Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup --0-1943369601-1023281967=:5726-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 12:37:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:37:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020604183220.008c76b0@ilhawaii.net> References: <3CFD12BF.9777.14E1126@localhost> Message-ID: <3CFDBFB9.5985.2AE85F@localhost> > >> How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any > >> air > >> echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? My father went over via boat. I don't know what boat, but I think it left from Norfolk. Unlike the others who have posted, however, he didn't go as part of a crew, which I have yet to figure out. He had spent the early years of the war as a flight instructor in Alabama and Georgia, but then went to 4 engine school and qualified for B-17s, and shipped out to England along with 3 or 4 other people in similar situations. I really can't figure out why he wasn't sent over as part of a crew, but perhaps it had something to do with the fact that he was already a Capt before going to 4-engine school, which I would think would have been unusual. I have one letter he wrote back from 4- engine school that was commenting on the difference between being a student again after years of being on the other side. He had my mother and me (I was born on an aaf base) with him on post when he was an instructor, but my mother had to travel back home by herself when he went to Sebring, which apparently wasn't easy with gas being rationed. Anyway, for whatever reason, he went over via ship, and not as part of a crew. When he came back, however, he flew a B-17 via Iceland and Greenland. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 14:52:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:52:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid Atlantic Air Museum World War II Weekend References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6AB9B@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <001d01c20c98$8c653340$291ed63f@default> Hello all, I live in RDG, and I will be there some time. I start going out to the Airport the day before to watch the A/C land and T/O. I have been doing things like this since the early day of the Old RDG Maint. Show. In 1958, I spent almost 3 years full time with the PA. Air Guard at RDG. Ed Frank From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 18:51:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:51:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon References: <3CFD12BF.9777.14E1126@localhost> Message-ID: <004d01c20cb9$fa1d4320$37bbbad0@cts> SPIDER SMITH WENT OVER BY AIR FERRYING A B17 . wE WERE THE NAFIUS CREW . WE WERE SUPPOSED TO LAND AT ST ANDREWS SCOTLAND BUT IT WAS FOGGED IN AND WE WENT TO NUTS CORNER IRELAND WHERE WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT THE FIRST NITE OVERSEAS. DICK"SPIDER" SMITH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon > > How did the guys on this formum get to England - were there any > > air > > echelon folks that went to the UK by boat? > > The Moncur Crew went over on the Queen Elizabeth. Dad said > that she was so fast the escort ships couldn't keep up, so they > crossed the Atlantic without escort. They changed direction a > few degrees every few minutes to avoid a fixed course and being > intercepted by U-boats. > > (PS - Great stuff on the list today! Thanks to everyone!) > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 18:07:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:07:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: Bill Heller: YOU LOOPED A FORTRESS? AND ON PURPOSE!? That must have been incredible! I've heard you could loop a Fortress, but never knew anyone who did. Any idea how many Gs you pulled coming out of the loop? Can you tell us any more about your loop experience? Why did you do it on purpose? Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:22:33 -0700 > >JR, aka Mr. President ... > >I'll second that "acrobatic mention" ... some of us did it with a B17 >without >WANTING to ... > >PS: I looped one once in training, on purpose, and WAS SCARED TO DEATH! > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Kevin, > > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got >tail > > end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > > formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst >airplanes" > > Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end >Charlie > > wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a >new > > inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that >some > > 80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and >good > > crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down >that > > Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > > Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained >in > > aerobatics in B17s. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 18:29:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:29:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: Honestly, almost every airman I have met in the last ten years have said they received the worst plane and the worst position in the formation. Dan Culler from the 44th BG flew 25 missions in purple heart corner because his pilot would not give seven sleeping bags they had brought from the States to the Squadron Ops Officer. I raised an eybrow on that one, too, but when I spoke to Dan, I knew he was telling the truth. As far as old and worst airplanes, Lou LaHood from the 322nd BS, 91st BG, was assigned an F model when he first arrived at Bassingbourn in January of 1944. The plane was a "scrap heap" according to Lou. The main thing he hated about it was the manual versus automatic supercharger controls between the F and G. His number 2 engine ran away on the 24 March 44 mission to Berlin, and the plane threw the prop. After that, he refused to fly the plane and was given Lassie Come Home, 42-31673. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:11 EDT > >Kevin, > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got >tail >end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our >formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst >airplanes" >Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end >Charlie >wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a >new >inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that >some >80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and >good >crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down >that >Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to >Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained in >aerobatics in B17s. > Best Wishes, > Jack. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 21:32:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:32:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice References: Message-ID: <3CFE7568.762621D6@attglobal.net> Kevin ... You must have talked to every sour grapes artist who ever flew in the war ... if what you say you heard is true. There WAS, however, a constant gripe about using the tall-handles to control the superchargers AFTER one was introduced to the oil-controlled supercharger "knob" .... I, for some reason or other, never had problems with either. Just set them and let them alone! If there WAS an Ops Officer who did what you claim you heard, THAT Ops Officer should have been canned. I find THAT item a bit difficult to believe. But, then, one must not judge OTHERS by the values YOU YOURSELF hold! Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Honestly, almost every airman I have met in the last ten years have said > they received the worst plane and the worst position in the formation. Dan > Culler from the 44th BG flew 25 missions in purple heart corner because his > pilot would not give seven sleeping bags they had brought from the States to > the Squadron Ops Officer. I raised an eybrow on that one, too, but when I > spoke to Dan, I knew he was telling the truth. > > As far as old and worst airplanes, Lou LaHood from the 322nd BS, 91st BG, > was assigned an F model when he first arrived at Bassingbourn in January of > 1944. The plane was a "scrap heap" according to Lou. The main thing he > hated about it was the manual versus automatic supercharger controls between > the F and G. His number 2 engine ran away on the 24 March 44 mission to > Berlin, and the plane threw the prop. After that, he refused to fly the > plane and was given Lassie Come Home, 42-31673. > Kevin > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice > >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:11 EDT > > > >Kevin, > > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got > >tail > >end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > >formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst > >airplanes" > >Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end > >Charlie > >wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a > >new > >inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that > >some > >80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and > >good > >crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down > >that > >Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > >Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained in > >aerobatics in B17s. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 21:35:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:35:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice References: Message-ID: <3CFE762B.204963E7@attglobal.net> Kevin ... I looped it "on purpose" because unless you are in combat you do NOT loop it by accident! Did not notice the Gs except it was a bit uncomfortable. I did it because you can even loop a 747 if you wish to. I know MANY Boeing test pilots who have looped 707s when training other airline personnel. One, I knew, REQUIRED his student to loop it OR roll it, as a graduation exercise. Besides, ANY airplane can do ANY maneuver any OTHER airplane can do. As to the sense in my doing so ... it was totally foolish, and I would NOT do it again. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill Heller: YOU LOOPED A FORTRESS? AND ON PURPOSE!? That must have been > incredible! I've heard you could loop a Fortress, but never knew anyone who > did. Any idea how many Gs you pulled coming out of the loop? Can you tell > us any more about your loop experience? Why did you do it on purpose? > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice > >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:22:33 -0700 > > > >JR, aka Mr. President ... > > > >I'll second that "acrobatic mention" ... some of us did it with a B17 > >without > >WANTING to ... > > > >PS: I looped one once in training, on purpose, and WAS SCARED TO DEATH! > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Kevin, > > > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got > >tail > > > end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > > > formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst > >airplanes" > > > Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end > >Charlie > > > wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being a > >new > > > inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate that > >some > > > 80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots and > >good > > > crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down > >that > > > Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > > > Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been trained > >in > > > aerobatics in B17s. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Jack. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 5 22:17:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:17:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air echelon/ground echelon Message-ID: <1a4.3436264.2a2fd9ee@aol.com> the late pilot charles lonski's craft flew to england via goose bay NOTE: THE FIRST CONTINGENT OF AIRFORCE LADIES HAD JUST ARRIVED FOR DUTY THERE>>> V E R Y INT RESTING TIME) the navigator missed england and had to get us back to valley wales. was scary. spec campen of that crew From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 00:24:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:24:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: <23.1f34c3e3.2a2ff799@aol.com> --part1_23.1f34c3e3.2a2ff799_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone going to the WW II reenactment in Reading, Pa. this weekend? --part1_23.1f34c3e3.2a2ff799_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone going to the WW II reenactment in Reading, Pa. this weekend? --part1_23.1f34c3e3.2a2ff799_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 01:15:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:15:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #614-message #5 Message-ID: <10e.1237eb66.2a3003aa@aol.com> --part1_10e.1237eb66.2a3003aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, After I completed my 25th combat mission (recognized-I had 38 actual missions). I went by ship back to the United States, in August of 1944. The ship was the Aquatania. While at B-17 instructor school in Columbus Ohio, my instructor was a 2nd Lt. so one day we went up to 29,000 feet and I was showing him how to stall a B-17. We flipped over and did a split-S and did a roll. I guess they didn't realize that I had already flown B-17's and had combat duty. A lot of people had their paperwork mixed up that way. When I was sent back to England (I always joked that they sent us back to do it right this time!!!), I was on the Moratania. There were 52 captains and 12 majors, so that's why you had so many copilots. While on the ship I got an MP armband and went up on deck and slept under a lifeboat. Safest place, I thought at the time, at least I would be on deck in case of a U-boat sinking us. All for now... cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_10e.1237eb66.2a3003aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
After I completed my 25th combat mission (recognized-I had 38 actual missions). I went by ship back to the United States, in August of 1944. The ship was the Aquatania. While at B-17 instructor school in Columbus Ohio, my instructor was a 2nd Lt. so one day we went up to 29,000 feet and I was showing him how to stall a B-17. We flipped over and did a split-S and did a roll. I guess they didn't realize that I had already flown B-17's and had combat duty. A lot of people had their paperwork mixed up that way. When I was sent back to England (I always joked that they sent us back to do it right this time!!!), I was on the Moratania. There were 52 captains and 12 majors, so that's why you had so many copilots. While on the ship I got an MP armband and went up on deck and slept under a lifeboat. Safest place, I thought at the time, at least I would be on deck in case of a U-boat sinking us. All for now... cheers
Bill Bergeron --part1_10e.1237eb66.2a3003aa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 01:11:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:11:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: Bill Heller: I was as skeptical as you on making a crew fly coffin corner over seven sleeping bags. You should read Dan's book about his internment in Switzerland and Wauwilermoos prison. I'll send you my copy if you want to read it. It is not another war story about combat flying. Mark Copeland from the 8th AFHS is reading a copy now to see if he can offer it through the PX. If you'd like to read this unpublished book, just send me your address and I will get it out to you. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice >Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:32:41 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >You must have talked to every sour grapes artist who ever flew in the war >... >if what you say you heard is true. > >There WAS, however, a constant gripe about using the tall-handles to >control >the superchargers AFTER one was introduced to the oil-controlled >supercharger >"knob" .... I, for some reason or other, never had problems with either. >Just >set them and let them alone! > >If there WAS an Ops Officer who did what you claim you heard, THAT Ops >Officer >should have been canned. I find THAT item a bit difficult to believe. But, >then, one must not judge OTHERS by the values YOU YOURSELF hold! > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Honestly, almost every airman I have met in the last ten years have said > > they received the worst plane and the worst position in the formation. >Dan > > Culler from the 44th BG flew 25 missions in purple heart corner because >his > > pilot would not give seven sleeping bags they had brought from the >States to > > the Squadron Ops Officer. I raised an eybrow on that one, too, but when >I > > spoke to Dan, I knew he was telling the truth. > > > > As far as old and worst airplanes, Lou LaHood from the 322nd BS, 91st >BG, > > was assigned an F model when he first arrived at Bassingbourn in January >of > > 1944. The plane was a "scrap heap" according to Lou. The main thing he > > hated about it was the manual versus automatic supercharger controls >between > > the F and G. His number 2 engine ran away on the 24 March 44 mission to > > Berlin, and the plane threw the prop. After that, he refused to fly the > > plane and was given Lassie Come Home, 42-31673. > > Kevin > > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice > > >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:11 EDT > > > > > >Kevin, > > > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got > > >tail > > >end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > > >formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst > > >airplanes" > > >Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end > > >Charlie > > >wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being >a > > >new > > >inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate >that > > >some > > >80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots >and > > >good > > >crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down > > >that > > >Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > > >Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been >trained in > > >aerobatics in B17s. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Jack. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 01:30:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:30:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training Message-ID: A recent message by Bill Heller indicated pilot training was lacking before crews entered combat. In what areas were new pilots lacking? Was it formation flying, cold weather procedures, assembly, bomb runs, weather or what? And Bill, did you mean training only for the pilots was lacking, or all other crew members as well. (Jeez, I heard early in the war gunners practiced with wooden guns!) If I had to fly during the Second World War, I would have wanted Bill Heller as my Squadron CO. Thanks, BH! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 01:56:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:56:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Runway Lighting Message-ID: Here is a question I have meant to post for quite a while. Many times you guys would come back after dark or in lousy weather. With all of the airfields in East Anglia, if runway lights were turned on, all of Britain would have been lit up like a torch, well, at least East Anglia. I have seen some of the runway lights used at the airfields, but were they turned on for you? With blackout procedures and all, I would think runways lights would have been like a beacon for the Luftwaffe trying to catch Groups returning from a mission. I don't believe I have seen this question here before. Thanks, guys! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 03:43:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:43:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] re by sea or by air Message-ID: <60.20e52b43.2a302668@aol.com> our crew was assigned a new B-17 at Lincoln AFB, with ordes cut to flyvia northern route and deliver plane to the receiving depot andtravel by train to our assigned station at the 303rd LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 03:02:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:02:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Air Echelon/Ground Echelon Message-ID: <15b.ef1a74a.2a301cb1@aol.com> --part1_15b.ef1a74a.2a301cb1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My crew, Charles W. Mars Crew, went by air via Gander to Valley, Wales. We lost our plane there and proceeded by train to Bovingdon then Molesworth. Bill D. --part1_15b.ef1a74a.2a301cb1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My crew, Charles W. Mars Crew, went by air via Gander to Valley, Wales. We lost our plane there and proceeded by train to Bovingdon then Molesworth.
Bill D. --part1_15b.ef1a74a.2a301cb1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 05:17:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:17:59 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] transprot to England Message-ID: <002101c20d11$25592700$562764d8@computer> Not everyone flew to Blimey via northern route. We left Homestead Fla mid February 43 to Trinidad, thence to Zandery Field, Dutch Guiana, to Natal, Brazil to Ascension Island to Accra, Africa to Marakech thence around the Iberian peninsula to England, landing at Torquay. then on to Bassingbourn and finally to Moleswworth. We lost our plane at Torquay. At Molesworth we were assigned a new B-17F which we named StricNine and flew as complete crew until it was lost with another crew. The trip over was fascinating. There were 6 of us, one crew headed by George Stallings, who also wound up at 303rd. We were held at Natal waiting for some P-38s for whom we had to navigate to Ascension as there was radio blackout. We flew at 155-160 IAS and the 38's were weaving to stay with us. An unforgettable trip. Ed Lamme' Bombardier, Strickland crew 427th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 06:06:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:06:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training Message-ID: <83.1bc97958.2a3047cd@aol.com> Kevin, Most first pilots had about 100 hours B17 time when the crews. were formed. Most copilots had no B17 time. Would the airlines consider this adequate training Bill? I know of one B17 pilot who regularly practiced loops, spins, barrel rolls and split S's in B17. He never tried a slow roll as he was concerned about the forces on the vertical tail. I doubt if he ever pulled over about one and a half G's. He would recover from a spin headed straight down with air speed about 135 to 140 MPH. He would enter a loop from a dive with airspeed close to 300 mph. He would use near take off power to the top of the loop and pull all the power off as he started down. He would do a split S from half a barrel roll. He never practiced any maneuver where he had negative G's but once in combat he dropped the nose so fast in a diving turn he had some negative G's for a short period with a new crew aboard. Be aware some 50% of the persons in any group are below average. That includes pilots too. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 08:18:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:18:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice References: Message-ID: <3CFF0CD6.F03A91E2@attglobal.net> KP ... Have read lots of books and stories anent the crews who were interned in Switzerland. Am sure I covered that one as well. However, if you like you may send it to my Snail Mail address at 972 Evening Dew Drive in Las Vegas, NV 89110-2925. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill Heller: I was as skeptical as you on making a crew fly coffin corner > over seven sleeping bags. You should read Dan's book about his internment > in Switzerland and Wauwilermoos prison. I'll send you my copy if you want > to read it. It is not another war story about combat flying. Mark Copeland > from the 8th AFHS is reading a copy now to see if he can offer it through > the PX. If you'd like to read this unpublished book, just send me your > address and I will get it out to you. > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice > >Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:32:41 -0700 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >You must have talked to every sour grapes artist who ever flew in the war > >... > >if what you say you heard is true. > > > >There WAS, however, a constant gripe about using the tall-handles to > >control > >the superchargers AFTER one was introduced to the oil-controlled > >supercharger > >"knob" .... I, for some reason or other, never had problems with either. > >Just > >set them and let them alone! > > > >If there WAS an Ops Officer who did what you claim you heard, THAT Ops > >Officer > >should have been canned. I find THAT item a bit difficult to believe. But, > >then, one must not judge OTHERS by the values YOU YOURSELF hold! > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Honestly, almost every airman I have met in the last ten years have said > > > they received the worst plane and the worst position in the formation. > >Dan > > > Culler from the 44th BG flew 25 missions in purple heart corner because > >his > > > pilot would not give seven sleeping bags they had brought from the > >States to > > > the Squadron Ops Officer. I raised an eybrow on that one, too, but when > >I > > > spoke to Dan, I knew he was telling the truth. > > > > > > As far as old and worst airplanes, Lou LaHood from the 322nd BS, 91st > >BG, > > > was assigned an F model when he first arrived at Bassingbourn in January > >of > > > 1944. The plane was a "scrap heap" according to Lou. The main thing he > > > hated about it was the manual versus automatic supercharger controls > >between > > > the F and G. His number 2 engine ran away on the 24 March 44 mission to > > > Berlin, and the plane threw the prop. After that, he refused to fly the > > > plane and was given Lassie Come Home, 42-31673. > > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice > > > >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:11 EDT > > > > > > > >Kevin, > > > > The new crews were just as important as anyone. I think they got > > > >tail > > > >end Charlie because if they flew bad formation they could louse up our > > > >formation if they were up front. We really didn't have any "worst > > > >airplanes" > > > >Some were just a bit newer than others. My opinion: Flying tail end > > > >Charlie > > > >wasn't particularly much more dangerous than any other position. Being > >a > > > >new > > > >inexperienced pilot was very much more dangerous. I would estimate > >that > > > >some > > > >80% of our loses were crews with less than 12 missions. Good pilots > >and > > > >good > > > >crews were lots harder to shoot down. I think lots of planes went down > > > >that > > > >Bill Heller, Harry Grobrecht and some others could have flown back to > > > >Molesworth. Don't laugh. I think all B17 pilots should have been > >trained in > > > >aerobatics in B17s. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Jack. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 08:48:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:48:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] First Combat Wing Diary Message-ID: Hello all, I am pleased to announce the release of my first book, entitled "The First Combat Wing Diary". It is a compilation of dictations and notes given to a friend of mine, by the name of Darrell Gillett. Darrell let me have a copy of this document a couple of years ago. After reading it over a couple of times, I realized that it had to be released. It is truly one of the best documents you will ever read on the formation and makeup of the 1st CBW, from its start in Mar of '43 until they went home in June of '43. I am offering it for sale, postage paid to the US for $15, to the UK for 10 pounds. I will tell you now, that I am not doing this for the money. One third of what I get will go to memorial associations of the 1st CBW. The rest goes to the production of the CD, and postage. What I am trying to do is get this document out to the people who would like to, or need to, read it. I want to benefit the people who sacrificed so much to win the air war in Europe. I am enclosing the first couple of pages, to let you know the quality, and the material, of which I speak. I hope you will support me in my project. One third of all monies collected go to memorial associations for the 8th AF units in England during the war. Here are a few pages, so you can see what I have put out. This diary is direct from those who dictated it. Not one word has been changed. Also included are 29 photos, some of which have never been published. Please contact me off list, so as not to plug up the talk ring, at gunnerson@telus.net I have only had it out for less than a day, and I am really amazed at the response. I know the 303rd was not part of the 1st CBW. You may change your mind after you start to read..... Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* HEADQUARTERS 1ST COMBAT BOMBARDMENT WING (H) APO 557. W I N G H I S T O R Y We started as the 101st Provisional Combat Wing (H). We were a part of the old 1st Bombardment Wing, which later became the 1st Bombardment Division. Our first chief was Brigadier General Frank A. Armstrong, Jr., the man who commanded and led the old 97th Bomb Group when it made the first attacks by American heavy bombers on Hitler's Europe. The General stayed with us only a short time; then on 14 June 1943 he left us to assume command of the Division, then to go home and organize a new fighting unit equipped with something newer, more powerful than our own tried and true ship, the Boeing Fortress. Our permanent Commander, Colonel William M. Gross, took over. This history deals with our organization and the things that happened to it. Although it may appear impersonal, concerned with things and events, it is really the story of Bill Gross and his Wing and his Groups and Group Commanders and his boys. For it was the Boss who gave this Wing its character and its tone and its know-how. It was the Boss who dreamed up things like having specialist teams to lead our Groups, who taught the boys the importance of radio communication, who above all through his tact and good-natured perseverance and genuine diplomatic skill somehow put over the idea that we were one organization fighting for the unit as a whole, and not ragtag assortment of individual Groups each proud of itself and resentfully resistant to the idea of peeling its individuality in a larger unit. WHY COMBAT WING? This Combat Wing idea was the child of the European theater - the "Big League", as we liked to call it. When operations began here, the old contemptibles, the 97th, 301st, 306th, 305th, 91st, and 303rd, the first Groups to thumb a nose at the Hun, went at it by threes and sixes and eights, and even ones and twos. They found out about fighting this war the hard way. They tried everything. High, medium and low altitudes. New guns, tricks and gadgets. Little formations, medium formations and no formations. They would have tried big formations, but they didn't have enough ships. They paid heavily for their lessons. Finally, the idea gained acceptance that even the old Group formation, as previously conceived, was too small for the Big League. What if the Bible, FM 1-10, said that the Group was the largest unit that could be flown? We were facing a condition, not a theory. Every time Goering's yellow-nosed kids knocked down a Fort, they punched another hole in the field manual. Experimentation showed that you could fly three Groups in a vertical formation. And when we showed this massive wall of 50-caliber guns to the Hun, his respect for our firepower was the proof that we had something. You could put sixty airplanes together in the air. But you couldn't fly that many off a single airdrome. Limited ground facilities, the length of time needed to taxi and take0off and land, the number of ships you could get into a single traffic pattern: these and other factors imposed an absolute limit on what you could do with a single field. What you had to have was a single combat unit operating from several bases widely separated on the ground. This could not be achieved without a new framework of Air Command, a command concerned only with tactics, transcending channels of administrative detail. The Combat Wing was the new command. Primitive Beginnings In the dark days of the winter of 1942-43, a jackleg Combat Wing organization was born. They had four Groups then. General Armstrong had the 306th and Colonel Curtis E. LeHay had the 305th. All they did was throw the 91st in with the 306th under the General and the 303rd with the 305th under Colonel LeHay. That was all there was to it. Yet, even in this primitive form, it worked. General Armstrong's Wing was the start of our organization. Proposals were submitted to the powers in Washington to legalize the Combat Wing and give a T/O and some tools to work with. If Washington was impressed, we saw nothing over here to show it. We waited until August 1943 before we were made legal. The trouble was that the war couldn't wait. Jerry didn't care if we were legal or not. We had to have Combat Wings, so we improvised them, matching personnel wherever we could, stealing men from the Groups, sponging on the Groups for maps and supplies and quarters and offices. We had Lieutenants over Majors, Captains doing the work of Colonels. At the same time, we had officers doing enlisted chores, for we had no enlisted men. We had only de facto command - a mixture of cajoling and wheedling, and our only big stick was that we could tell the General if we didn't get what we wanted. Fortunately, due to the good sense and good nature of our Group Commanders, we were never forced to use the big stick. We Make A Start Our Wing made its appearance on 17 May 1943, when the General and Colonel Gross arrived at Bassingbourn. We had a General and a Colonel, but what was home without an Adjutant? And, to coin a phrase, what was home without a mother? They brought with them the other two charter members of the Wing: Lt. Jules L. Moreau and Miss Prentice. Moreau was a young man whose devotions to scholarly pursuits and to the Army and deprived the legal profession of a shining light. Miss Ella, the least of whose talents was that she could take shorthand and type, had been the Boss's Secretary at Widewing, the 8th Air Force Headquarters. Bassingbourn was a nice place. It is located at the southern tip of Cambridgeshire, a mile and a half from Royston, fourteen miles from Cambridge. London was an hour and a half by train from Royston, and there were movies, pubs, and females in Cambridge. Some of the later arrivals from stations in the Bedford area, notably Thurleigh, continued to work Bedford for a while, but the distance was too great and this finally petered out, more or less. The important thing was that Bassingbourn was a station that had been built in peacetime. True, Hitler's breath was hot on England's neck when they built it, but there was still time to put up good substantial buildings. The other American stations all had nissen huts, which are the children of Diogenes' barrel aired out of wedlock by the American Can Company. And the other stations had mud, cozy, slimy, animated mud, that liked nothing better than to crawl over the tops of your galoshes and worm its way between your toes. We, at least, had clean feet. Our host was the 91st Group, one of the old, original four that fought the war during the bad winter of '42-'43. Just about the time we started, Colonel Wray, original From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 08:28:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:28:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training References: Message-ID: <3CFF0F3A.3CDC81F3@attglobal.net> KP ... What I referred to THEN as well as NOW about the training ... or lack thereof ... (of combat training that is) ... was that we'd get crews in England and have to show them how to fly at night in a TOTAL INK SKY and NO LIGHTS ON THE GROUND. This, showed a lot of their lack of instrument flying ability. To take off on an English night was to BE in a SEA OF INK. Years ago, when airliners flying the Pacific used to use Wake Island, it was considered one of the most dangerous night approaches for this same reason. There were hardly ANY lights on the Island and the entire approach and landing was made much as all night landings in England were made. However, having said that, I can remember in training in the States when we had as many as SIX B17s on an approach to a landing, strung out for miles. When they got to England they had to learn to do fighter type approaches with their B17s and there was NO room for an approach "miles' from the landing end of the runway! In the training command, in the States, they were constantly harrassed for SAFETY, and thus they could NOT train as WE needed them trained for combat. We usually did that in about two weeks if we were lucky. In fact, the night Jokerst was killed in a night training crash, both he and I were out there with NEW crews showing them how to make NIGHT takeoffs and landings which were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from anything they were taught in the States. I was next in line behind Jokerst when he pranged. I turned back and we cancelled the training for the rest of the night. Jokerst and I had just spoken to each other and SAID this would be our last circuit and bumps and we would meet in the Bar for a tiddly later. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > A recent message by Bill Heller indicated pilot training was lacking before > crews entered combat. In what areas were new pilots lacking? Was it > formation flying, cold weather procedures, assembly, bomb runs, weather or > what? And Bill, did you mean training only for the pilots was lacking, or > all other crew members as well. (Jeez, I heard early in the war gunners > practiced with wooden guns!) > > If I had to fly during the Second World War, I would have wanted Bill Heller > as my Squadron CO. Thanks, BH! > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 08:34:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:34:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training References: <83.1bc97958.2a3047cd@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CFF107E.BFDF775E@attglobal.net> JR, aka Mr. President ... No, Jack. That amount of training would NOT be sufficient for airline work. However, airline pilots are not expendable .... Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, > Most first pilots had about 100 hours B17 time when the crews. were > formed. Most copilots had no B17 time. Would the airlines consider this > adequate training Bill? I know of one B17 pilot who regularly practiced > loops, spins, barrel rolls and split S's in B17. He never tried a slow roll > as he was concerned about the forces on the vertical tail. I doubt if he ever > pulled over about one and a half G's. He would recover from a spin headed > straight down with air speed about 135 to 140 MPH. He would enter a loop from > a dive with airspeed close to 300 mph. He would use near take off power to > the top of the loop and pull all the power off as he started down. He would > do a split S from half a barrel roll. He never practiced any maneuver where > he had negative G's but once in combat he dropped the nose so fast in a > diving turn he had some negative G's for a short period with a new crew > aboard. Be aware some 50% of the persons in any group are below average. > That includes pilots too. > Best Wishes, > Jack > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 13:39:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:39:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C20D2D.573F70A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I will be there Saturday. There are going to be 91st BG boys there, I ho= pe to pick up another one and take with me If I can talk him into it. =20 Lance Burrell ----- Original Message ----- From: RasinMan65@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:36 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice Is anyone going to the WW II reenactment in Reading, Pa. this weekend? =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C20D2D.573F70A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes,

I will be there Saturday. There are going to be 91st BG boys ther= e, I hope to pick up another one and take with me If I can talk him into = it.
Lance Burrell

----- Origi= nal Message -----

From: RasinMan65@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:36 PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller= /Aircraft choice

Is anyone going to the WW II reenactment in Reading, Pa. th= is weekend?

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C20D2D.573F70A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 14:56:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:56:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #614 - 10 msgs Message-ID: <193.7ed4f88.2a30c40d@aol.com> --part1_193.7ed4f88.2a30c40d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Went to England on the Normandy came back on the Queen Mary. The trip over was something else. The boat was packed with infantry and boy did they get sea sick. We flyers use to go on deck and crawl into the air vents and ride out the rough sea. The ground troups woulds see us and run for the railings. The ship stopped somewhere close to England on a calm day and opened one of the forward hatches. A big one. All of a sudden the hatch came lose and slamed to the deck. I was scared, Thought we had been hit by a torpedo. The trip back on the Queen was beautiful, smooth as silk. They told us we broke a speed record for crossing the Atlantic. There was a constant card game everyplace on deck. I went toward the front of the ship and looked back. Plenty of funny looking ballons were rising up to the upper decks. Right past all the women kept away from the rest of us. ?? --part1_193.7ed4f88.2a30c40d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Went to England on the Normandy came back on the Queen Mary. The trip over was something else. The boat was packed with infantry and boy did they get sea sick. We flyers use to go on deck and crawl into the air vents and ride out the rough sea. The ground troups woulds see us and run for the railings.
The ship stopped somewhere close to England on a calm day and opened one of the forward hatches. A big one. All of a sudden the hatch came lose and slamed to the deck. I was scared, Thought we had been hit by a torpedo.
The trip back on the Queen was beautiful, smooth as silk. They told us we broke a speed record for crossing the Atlantic.
There was a constant card game everyplace on deck. I went toward the front of the ship and looked back. Plenty of funny looking ballons were rising up to the upper decks. Right past all the women kept away from the rest of us. ?? --part1_193.7ed4f88.2a30c40d_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 15:53:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Marleen Eastin) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:53:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Message-ID: I just wanted to say thank you to all of you who were or are in the armed forces. Whether you were in a war or served during peace time, you gave part of yourself for the freedom of our country and I am truly thankful. When I think of what some of you went through in the wars, I am humbled and very grateful. My father was part of the 303 in WWII and was a POW in Germany a little over a year. My older brother was in the Navy during Vietnam and the Gulf War. I have a nephew in Afganistan right now and a son in the Navy and one in the National Guards getting ready to go to Kuwait. Both of my sons are willing to die for their country if need be, and I am so proud of them. No, of course it isn't easy to think that your son might die far away from home with no one to be there at his side, but if that is what it takes to keep our country free, then they will not have died in vain. They are both ready to meet their Saviour, so I would rather that they die than someone who wasn't. Enough morbid stuff. I have meant to sit down and write this note for a long time. I enjoy reading the postings on this sight and even though I don't have much of a clue what you talking about most of the time, it is interesting and helps me understand just a little what my Dad did while in the Air Force. Thank you once again and may God bless each and every one of you!! Marleen _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 16:59:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:59:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To RaisinMan Message-ID: Todd Hollrit is >From: RasinMan65@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller/Aircraft choice >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:24:09 EDT > >Is anyone going to the WW II reenactment in Reading, Pa. this weekend? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 17:15:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:15:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training Message-ID: As usual, Bill H., your reply was outstanding. What an awful accident with Jokerst. I do believe and event like that would haunt me for a very long time. I saw a Cessna 150 crash in 1974 at Mt. Hawley Airport in Peoria, Illinois. Pilots hopped in without preflight when they heard their friends on Unicom flying in from Chicago. They must have been really excited because when they turned base, they were barely above the ground, the wing tip hit the ground and the plane cartwheeled into a thousand pieces. I was riding my bike up for a flying lesson and I was first on the scene. I was 15 years old and it was the first time I saw a dead person, let alone scattered body parts. And you guys lived with that day in and day out. Maybe that is why I am so interested in your pasts. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Pilot/Crew Training >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:28:57 -0700 > >KP ... > >What I referred to THEN as well as NOW about the training ... or lack >thereof >... (of combat training that is) ... was that we'd get crews in England and >have to show them how to fly at night in a TOTAL INK SKY and NO LIGHTS ON >THE >GROUND. This, showed a lot of their lack of instrument flying ability. To >take >off on an English night was to BE in a SEA OF INK. > >Years ago, when airliners flying the Pacific used to use Wake Island, it >was >considered one of the most dangerous night approaches for this same reason. >There were hardly ANY lights on the Island and the entire approach and >landing >was made much as all night landings in England were made. > >However, having said that, I can remember in training in the States when we >had >as many as SIX B17s on an approach to a landing, strung out for miles. When >they got to England they had to learn to do fighter type approaches with >their >B17s and there was NO room for an approach "miles' from the landing end of >the >runway! > >In the training command, in the States, they were constantly harrassed for >SAFETY, and thus they could NOT train as WE needed them trained for combat. >We >usually did that in about two weeks if we were lucky. In fact, the night >Jokerst was killed in a night training crash, both he and I were out there >with >NEW crews showing them how to make NIGHT takeoffs and landings which were >ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from anything they were taught in the States. > >I was next in line behind Jokerst when he pranged. I turned back and we >cancelled the training for the rest of the night. Jokerst and I had just >spoken >to each other and SAID this would be our last circuit and bumps and we >would >meet in the Bar for a tiddly later. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > A recent message by Bill Heller indicated pilot training was lacking >before > > crews entered combat. In what areas were new pilots lacking? Was it > > formation flying, cold weather procedures, assembly, bomb runs, weather >or > > what? And Bill, did you mean training only for the pilots was lacking, >or > > all other crew members as well. (Jeez, I heard early in the war gunners > > practiced with wooden guns!) > > > > If I had to fly during the Second World War, I would have wanted Bill >Heller > > as my Squadron CO. Thanks, BH! > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 17:22:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:22:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June the 6th, 1944 Message-ID: On this 58th anniversary of D-Day, please allow me to thank you for your wartime contributions. Also, a BIG thank you for answering so many of my questions, which must appear pretty lame to some, but your answers are absolutely facinating to me. The Anchorage Daily News today ran three stories on D-Day, two editorials and one feature. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 17:25:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:25:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying over water Message-ID: I was reading a book last night and it mentioned that while training in Texas an entire squadrom was ordered to fly low over the Gulf of Mexico, wave hopping the book said. Four ships from that training squadron failed to return and it was later determined that there is a psychological condition that if you fly low over water, your brain becomes confused and you can end up flying into the water. Has anyone heard of this before? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 17:28:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:28:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Link Trainer Message-ID: Bill Heller mentions that pilots did not receive enough instrument time to become proficient in nightime flying. What do you pilots remember about the Link Trainer? Was it vailable to you for instruction? How many hours of training did you receive in it? What is your opinion of the training you received in the Link Trainer? Thanks, guys! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 19:12:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:12:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying over water References: Message-ID: <3CFFA619.F26518F4@attglobal.net> KP ... Syndrome Schmindrome ... if you fly LOW you are ALWAYS in danger of hitting the ground or WHATEVER is beneath you! I love this "syndrome" tactic these days. Nobody is responsible for what they do ... they ALL have to have an "out" so they call it a syndrome! Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > I was reading a book last night and it mentioned that while training in > Texas an entire squadrom was ordered to fly low over the Gulf of Mexico, > wave hopping the book said. Four ships from that training squadron failed > to return and it was later determined that there is a psychological > condition that if you fly low over water, your brain becomes confused and > you can end up flying into the water. Has anyone heard of this before? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 22:27:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:27:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Travel Route to 303rd Message-ID: <006701c20da0$f56d3aa0$02827f18@we.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20D66.48881BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My crew took the same southern route as Ed Lamme's Crew only with = different stops. We left Morrison Field Army Air Force Base near West Palm Beach, FL on = March 4th 1943. Flew to Borinquen Field, Puerto Rico then Atchison = Field, British Guiana, Belem and Natal Brazil. Then a 12 hour flight = with bomb bay tanks to Dakar,Senegal Africa, Tindouf, Algeria and = Marrakech, French Morocco. We then flew to Newquay and Blackpool England where we left our plane. Then went to Hemel-Hemstead England for = Oxygen Training and Gunnery Refreshment Courses, All the English time was between April 15th and May 10th 1943. On May 10th we were sent to the 303rd Bomb Group, 359th Bomb Sqd. Flew = our first Mission on May 14th. Bob Rettinhouse ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20D66.48881BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My crew took the same southern route as Ed = Lamme's Crew=20 only with different stops.

We left Morrison Field Army Air Force Base near = West Palm=20 Beach, FL on March 4th 1943. Flew to Borinquen Field, Puerto Rico then = Atchison=20 Field, British Guiana, Belem and Natal Brazil. Then a 12 hour flight = with bomb=20 bay tanks to Dakar,Senegal Africa, Tindouf, Algeria and Marrakech, = French=20 Morocco. We then flew to Newquay and Blackpool

England where we left our plane. Then went to=20 Hemel-Hemstead England for Oxygen Training and Gunnery Refreshment = Courses, All=20 the English

time was between April 15th and May 10th=20 1943.

On May 10th we were sent to the 303rd Bomb = Group, 359th=20 Bomb Sqd. Flew our first Mission on

May 14th.

= &= nbsp; =20 Bob Rettinhouse

------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20D66.48881BA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 22:50:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:50:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth area Inns and Pubs today References: <3CFF0F3A.3CDC81F3@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <003901c20da4$1e6183a0$6401a8c0@desktop1> I plan to someday go to Molesworth and some of the other East Anglia airbases and museums- are there any Pubs or inns in the Molesworth area that existed in the war years that are still there ? Also, is there anyone who recalls a village named Tictsmarsh(sp) ? Bill Conklin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 6 23:13:23 2002