From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 00:45:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:45:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gun Sights II Message-ID: There is a pretty good description of gunsights in Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual for anyone who might be interested. As you may recall, I was seeking information on gun sights last week. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 00:49:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:49:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] First Mission of the 8th Message-ID: I was reading through Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary this morning about the 8th's first mission to the railroad marshalling yards at Rouen-Sottsville. I have interviewed Paul Tibbets (then a Major), who along with Ira Eaker, flew 12 B-17s from the 97th Bomb Group on this first mission. What I did not know was the mission was flown from Grafton Underwood. I thought the 384th BG occupied Grafton Underwood for the duration. Can anyone help me verify this small, but important, fact. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 06:08:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chris Bryant) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] First Mission of the 8th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020703050811.54264.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Kevin, I'm puzzled at your question.I'm not sure what you mean.The first 8th Air Force mission was flown August 17,1942.The 384th was part of the SECOND wave of heavy bomber groups which began arriving in England in the spring of 1943. The 384th entered combat in June of '43......about seven months after the 97th BG had left for Africa. Chris Bryant wrote: > I was reading through Freeman's Mighty Eighth War > Diary this morning about > the 8th's first mission to the railroad marshalling > yards at > Rouen-Sottsville. I have interviewed Paul Tibbets > (then a Major), who along > with Ira Eaker, flew 12 B-17s from the 97th Bomb > Group on this first > mission. What I did not know was the mission was > flown from Grafton > Underwood. I thought the 384th BG occupied Grafton > Underwood for the > duration. Can anyone help me verify this small, but > important, fact. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 11:17:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:17:45 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] INDEPENDENCE DAY Message-ID: <000701c2227a$e000d2a0$da4579c3@default> DEAR FRIENDS OF THE 303RD BOMBGROUP (H). WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TOMORROW MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA. HANS REUSINK FROM THE NETHERLANDS From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 16:33:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] INDEPENDENCE DAY In-Reply-To: <000701c2227a$e000d2a0$da4579c3@default> Message-ID: <20020703153327.18253.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Hans. Your kind words are well received......Bill Runnels --- hans reusink wrote: > DEAR FRIENDS OF THE 303RD BOMBGROUP (H). > WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TOMORROW > MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA. > HANS REUSINK FROM THE NETHERLANDS > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 17:15:42 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:15:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] First Mission of the 8th Message-ID: Chris: I was puzzled, too, until I found this last night. Grafton-Underwood must have been there home in England until shipping out for the 12th AF. Kevin Constituted as 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy) on 28 Jan 1942. Activated on 3 Feb 1942. Trained with B-17's; also flew some antisubmarine patrols. Moved to England, May-Jul 1942, for duty with Eighth AF. Entered combat on 17 Aug 1942 by bombing a marshalling yard at Rouen, the first mission flown by AAF's heavy bombers based in England. After that, attacked airfields, marshalling yards, industries, naval installations, and other targets in France and the Low Countries. Moved to the Mediterranean theater in Nov 1942, being assigned first to Twelfth and later (Nov 1943) to Fifteenth AF. Struck shipping in the Mediterranean and airfields, clocks, harbors, and marshalling yards in North Africa, southern France, Sardinia, Sicily, and southern Italy, Nov 1942-May 1943, in the campaign to cut supply lines to German forces in North Africa. Helped to force the capitulation of Pantelleria in Jun 1943. Bombed in preparation for and in support of the invasions of Sicily and southern Italy in the summer and fall of 1943. From Nov 1943 to Apr 1945, engaged chiefly in long-range missions to targets in Italy, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Greece, attacking oil refineries, aircraft factories, marshalling yards, and other strategic objectives. Received a DUC for leading a strike against an aircraft factory at Steyr on 24 Feb 1944 during Big Week, the intensive air campaign against the German aircraft industry. 2nd Lt David R Kingsley, bombardier, was awarded the Medal of Honor for saving the life of a wounded gunner on 23 Jun 1944: during a mission to Ploesti, Kingsley's B-17 was seriously crippled and the tail gunner was injured; when the crew was ordered to bail out, Kingsley gave his parachute to the gunner, whose own had been damaged, and assisted him in bailing out; Kingsley died a few moments later when his bomber crashed and burned. The group received its second DUC for a devastating raid against one of the Ploesti refineries on 18 Aug 1944. Other operations of the 97th included pounding enemy communications, transportation, and airfields in support of Allied forces at Anzio and Cassino; bombing coastal defenses in preparation for the invasion of Southern France; and assisting US Fifth and British Eighth Army in their advance through the Po Valley. Inactivated in Italy on 29 Oct 1945. Redesignated 97th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy). Activated in the US on 4 Aug 1946. Assigned to Strategic Air Command. Equipped with B-29's. Redesignated 97th Bombardment Group (Medium) in May 1948. Converted to B-50's in 1950. Inactivated on 16 Jun 1952. Campaigns Antisubmarine, American Theater, Air Combat, EAME Theater, Air Offensive, Europe, Tunisia, Sicily, Naples-Foggia, Anzio, Rome-Arno, Normandy, Northern France, Southern France, North Apennines, Rhineland, Central Europe, Po Valley, Decorations Distinguished Unit Citations: Steyr, Austria, 24 Feb 1944; Ploesti, Rumania, 18 Aug 1944. >From: Chris Bryant >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] First Mission of the 8th >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:08:11 -0700 (PDT) > >Kevin, > I'm puzzled at your question.I'm not sure >what you mean.The first 8th Air Force mission was >flown August 17,1942.The 384th was part of the SECOND >wave of heavy bomber groups which began arriving in >England in the spring of 1943. The 384th entered >combat in June of '43......about seven months after >the 97th BG had left for Africa. > Chris Bryant > > wrote: > > I was reading through Freeman's Mighty Eighth War > > Diary this morning about > > the 8th's first mission to the railroad marshalling > > yards at > > Rouen-Sottsville. I have interviewed Paul Tibbets > > (then a Major), who along > > with Ira Eaker, flew 12 B-17s from the 97th Bomb > > Group on this first > > mission. What I did not know was the mission was > > flown from Grafton > > Underwood. I thought the 384th BG occupied Grafton > > Underwood for the > > duration. Can anyone help me verify this small, but > > important, fact. > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >http://sbc.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 17:58:06 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:58:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] INDEPENDENCE DAY References: <000701c2227a$e000d2a0$da4579c3@default> Message-ID: <001001c222b2$ce815260$5368db40@billowen> Thank you, Hans, for your many good deeds for families of 303rd vets. I am hereby making you an honorary TEXAN. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "hans reusink" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:17 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] INDEPENDENCE DAY > DEAR FRIENDS OF THE 303RD BOMBGROUP (H). > WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TOMORROW > MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA. > HANS REUSINK FROM THE NETHERLANDS > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 3 22:23:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:23:15 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day Message-ID: <000e01c222d7$f3487400$2aeafc3e@RAY> Hi to all my 303rder friends As an Englishman I wish you well for tomorrow, your Independence Day. In 1776 you cut yourselves off from us, for reasons best known to your goodselves. Just to humour me, is there anything you regret (anything at all) about your leaving the British family of nations, or were you just glad to be rid of us? I've got a feeling that I've just opened the flood-gates to a multitude of comments.....perhaps not all of them complimentary. What the heck....we Brits can take it, just as we did during those war years. Thanks for all you did for us then Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 4 01:27:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:27:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day Message-ID: Ray: I will give you my slant on things. Americans always have been and always will be fiercely independent. We are risk takers. We came to America seeking a new life, one free from conventional norms and mores found in your country and the rest of Europe. We came here to have religious freedom, and to make a better life for ourselves we could not find in oppressed England or Europe at the time. The best way to get an American to fight is to tell him he has to do something, and when ya'all wanted to tax our tea without representation, well, that was just the last straw. Had you taxed more heavily our beer and whiskey, I am quite sure England would be in American hands now. (Just kidding.....) Now, with that said, America has no greater Ally than England, NONE. Of all the nations in this world, I believe our two nations trust each other moreso than any others. When Diana died, we all shed a tear on this side of the pond, and when England was threatened by the likes of Hitler, we bandied to your side of the pond, albeit after three years of standing on your own. (As an American, I am ashamed we let you suffer for so long and so alone, especially when Lindberg types were preaching the merits of isolationalism.) And most recently when the Queen Mother celebrated her 50 years as the Matriarch of your country, most in America celebrated too. Now if we could just figure out how to make a good English beer.... Cheers, mate! Kevin Anchorage, Alaska _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 4 07:42:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:42:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day References: <000e01c222d7$f3487400$2aeafc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D23EE3F.23A8EABD@attglobal.net> Ray and MBE ... Just as I answer queries anent slavery in the US and my thoughts, I have the same answer: I was not there then, hence do not owe anything for the slavery issue ... As to 1776, alas, I was not there also, but I seem to believe, just as I rant and rave against THIS government of ours and all THEIR taxes, I just MAY have been one of that bunch in silly pants and ruffled shirts who signed the Declaration of Independence. Who knows? But, I will tell you one thing, as an avowed Anglophile, I value the friendship of the Brits and saw them at their best when I was a guest in their country circa 1943-44-45 .... Cheers! WCH "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Hi to all my 303rder friends > > As an Englishman I wish you well for tomorrow, your Independence Day. In > 1776 you cut yourselves off from us, for reasons best known to your > goodselves. Just to humour me, is there anything you regret (anything at > all) about your leaving the British family of nations, or were you just glad > to be rid of us? > > I've got a feeling that I've just opened the flood-gates to a multitude of > comments.....perhaps not all of them complimentary. What the heck....we > Brits can take it, just as we did during those war years. > > Thanks for all you did for us then > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jul 6 04:19:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:19:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day Message-ID: Ray Cossey. You have brought up a subject that I will not answer without more thought than I can devote to your subject tonight. I have thought about it most of the afternoon and I think I have the answers but I must choose the words very carefully. I loved England and really like the English People, especially you. BUT it never entered my mind that I wanted to live there or was sorry we had split up I will schedule an answer to you if I can. stay alive long enough to get some of my todo list marked off. I will give you a two sentence answer tonight. In America there is a ladder that goes way up and anyone is free to climb it if he (or she) has the guts, ability and, etc., to climb it as far as they can. In my observations which may be wrong that ladder does not exist in the Mother Country Love Ray. I'm proud to have you for a Friend, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 4 18:12:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:12:19 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day References: Message-ID: <000401c2237e$11b018c0$af24fd3e@theresa> Kevin P Thanks for your 'kind comments'. As for English beer it cannot have been that bad during the war as you Yanks sure drank your fair share of it, even though it was not as cool has you liked it. To tell the truth it was warm...and still is! Having said that we now tend to drink more cold lager-type beers than the old mild and bitter so loved by your wartime countrymen. Have a great day celebrating your escape from Colonial rule! Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jul 6 12:07:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:07:26 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day References: Message-ID: <000e01c224de$9deefca0$0ae5fc3e@theresa> Hi President Jack I kind of thought you might have a few words of wisdom on the subject of your 'divorce' from the 'mother country' in 1776. To tell the truth it's probably the best thing you ever did and since that time the pupil has taught the teacher a few things. Every I visit your great country (it must be going on for a dozen times) several things always stick in my memory. Some of these being:- 1. The overwhelming warmth of the people towards us limeys 2. The vibrant energy of the nation as a whole (including Californians, who live in a place which is like no other place on earth!) 3. The total freedom of speech allowed, without the imposition of threats of slander and libel actions if you try to speak your mind. (Our old friend, Bill Heller, who has strong opinions about officialdom, would be somewhat silenced over here, which I think would be a great injustice). 4. 'Dunkin Doughnuts', which has not reached these shores.....yet! 5. The price of your gasoline, (petrol we call it) which is about a quarter of the price we have to pay. As for that 'ladder-of-opportunity' you describe, Jack, things have changed somewhat over the past 60 years. The old school tie syndrome is not as far-reaching as it was and the class-structure, within our society, though still in existence, is not nearly so important as it once was. Now even non-university types can become Prime Minister (John Major was an example). He was the son of a circus performer and Margaret Thatcher the daughter of a corner shop grocer. In truth you can get to the top of the political tree without riches, unlike in your country, where I suspect only the sons of millionaires can now become President. So, Jack, each of our respective societies has its good, and not-so-good, points. The important thing is that we remain friends and allies, so that together we can see off all the evil in the world, even though many people of world may hate us for it. Whatever my nation may have bequeathed to yours, you have improved on it and we look on you with pride as you now have the burden (once held by us, centuries ago) of being the greatest nation of earth. It is a terrible burden to bear, but you do it with dignity and forbearance. God bless America, its people and all my very dear friends in the 303rd Bomb Group Association. Ray Cossey Norwich, (pronounced 'Norridge', not 'Nor-witch' as you folks wrongly do!) England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jul 6 12:14:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:14:21 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Independence Day References: <000e01c222d7$f3487400$2aeafc3e@RAY> <3D23EE3F.23A8EABD@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000f01c224de$9fa27900$0ae5fc3e@theresa> Bill Heller I just can't ever imagine you, Bill, in silly pants (trousers) and ruffled shirts. A powdered wig and breeches (also trousers) maybe, as worn by a dignified English gentleman of the period. Just as you are a committed anglophile I like to think I am an honorary American. Whatever label they put of us we are all 'friends', brought together by a common love of the Mighty Eighth and, in particularly, the best outfit they had, the 303rd BG. Warmest best wishes Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 10 20:04:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:04:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 9-0-9 Message-ID: <3D2C22EA.11108.1313ADF@localhost> Susan and I just got back from watching 909 fly at an airport nearby. She's a beautifully restored plane. That was the first time we've seen that particular B-17. The Collings Foundation B-24 was there, too. They are quite different in the air. The B-17 is so much more graceful. Both aircraft are on the Wings of Freedom 2002 Tour. Maybe they're coming your way. http://www.collingsfoundation.org/menu.htm - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 10 19:33:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:33:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying a B24 Message-ID: Hi list, While on vacation I read Ambrose's book on B-24's in Italy. Several times in the book he mentioned that the pilots developed strong left arms from having to "horse around the plane". Now I understand that to mean that you had some muscle to maneuver the plane. I know you all are B17 guys but can anyone explain to me why the 24 was designed this way and why it was so difficult to fly? What did they have to do differently than the 17 pilots. Keep the answer simple fellas. I barely understand why a plane can get off the ground. Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 10 19:52:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:52:48 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 9-0-9 References: <3D2C22EA.11108.1313ADF@localhost> Message-ID: <3D2C8280.19587F68@attglobal.net> GM ... As one who has flown all the jet airliners right up to the 747, I still believe, for its time, the B17 was among the most sleekest airplanes. Except for the lack of a swept back wing, it could pass for any of the jet liners of today. It is a tribute to the Engineers of Boeing. And, the way it was built brought a lot of us back safely. Am very glad you liked viewing that plane again, especially watching it fly. Cheers! WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > Susan and I just got back from watching 909 fly at an airport > nearby. She's a beautifully restored plane. That was the > first time we've seen that particular B-17. The Collings > Foundation B-24 was there, too. They are quite different in > the air. The B-17 is so much more graceful. > > Both aircraft are on the Wings of Freedom 2002 Tour. Maybe > they're coming your way. > http://www.collingsfoundation.org/menu.htm > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 10 22:28:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:28:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 9-0-9 References: <3D2C22EA.11108.1313ADF@localhost> Message-ID: <001401c22858$c9e5aa20$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Here is additional information on the Collins tour: the planes will arrive at Anoka County Airport, Blaine MN. at about 3pm on Tues., July 16 and leaving about 2pm on Fri., July 19th.. Members of the Minnesota Chapter of 8th AFHS is major sponsor , conducting tours of the B-17 and B-24 as well as having a panel discussion by members in each of the crew positions . dawn and dusk flights will be held , passenger fres are $350 per person Also, information today is the CAF of Minnesota will have at their air show Aug 3 and 4th at Fleming Field, St. Paul, MN, the B-17 "Thunderbird" from galveston, Tx. I'm not sure if they will be flying passenger runs, they are asking for 8th AF members to help with tours thru the plane. LeRoy Christenson royaudrey651@attbi.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 9-0-9 > Susan and I just got back from watching 909 fly at an airport > nearby. She's a beautifully restored plane. That was the > first time we've seen that particular B-17. The Collings > Foundation B-24 was there, too. They are quite different in > the air. The B-17 is so much more graceful. > > Both aircraft are on the Wings of Freedom 2002 Tour. Maybe > they're coming your way. > http://www.collingsfoundation.org/menu.htm > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 11 08:10:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 00:10:43 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying a B24 References: Message-ID: <3D2D2F72.3BF948F3@attglobal.net> Tooley Dave ... They did not have servo controls in those days and in the heat of combat it WAS difficult to "horse" the airplane around, whether it was a B17 or a B-24. I recall on the Schweinfurt raid that I was using my right foot BEHIND my right rudder and PULLED, while I PUSHED on my LEFT KNEE when giving force onto the LEFT rudder. Why haven't you heard much about this? For the simple reason that we did not look at every work of combat to be something we could somehow make EASIER! We flew the damn plane and it WAS difficult at times depending upon the regime of flight in which you found yourself. As to my reference to servo controls ... when I flew the DC-10-30 and the 747 it was almost thumb and fore-finger flying ... sort of like driving my Cadillac. Cheers! WCH "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list, > While on vacation I read Ambrose's book on B-24's in Italy. Several times > in the book he mentioned that the pilots developed strong left arms from > having to "horse around the plane". Now I understand that to mean that you > had some muscle to maneuver the plane. I know you all are B17 guys but can > anyone explain to me why the 24 was designed this way and why it was so > difficult to fly? What did they have to do differently than the 17 pilots. > > Keep the answer simple fellas. I barely understand why a plane can get off > the ground. > > Thanks! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 11 11:40:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Stephen Darlow) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:40:25 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D-day and the 303rd Message-ID: <00c701c228c7$6737ac60$1bb1fea9@f5m2v0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C228CF.C1E8DC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir or Madam I am conducting some research into the heavy bomber support for D-day = (both RAF's Bomber Command and 8th Air Force) and I was wondering if I = could post a message on the 303rd Talk Forum. I'm not sure if you need = me to subscribe to the forum or not. If so please let me know and I will = do so. Firstly a brief introduction. I am the grandson of an RAF Bomber Command = pilot. I am a published author and I have written the war story of my = grandfather and his crew and this was published in 2000 entitled = 'Lancaster Down!' My second book has just been published. Entitled = 'Sledgehammers for Tintacks' it details RAF Bomber Command's role in the = flying bomb counter offensive 1943-44. My publisher is the well known = military aviation publisher Grub Street (London). =20 I am now researching and writing for my next book, provisionally = entitled 'D-day Bombers'. In the past I have focused on the RAF, but now = I wish to broaden my research to the American heavy bomber involvement = and the American aircrew experience. This aspect is still quite new to = me and as such I readily welcome offer's of help from American veterans. = I intend to tell the D-day support story through the experiences of = aircrew, and here I would like to ask for help. I would be grateful to = speak to any 303rd BG veterans who could help by passing on their = experiences of D-day support missions (and not just the 6th June 1944, = but the missions leading up to D-day and in support of the invasion = through June to September 1944).=20 I hope you this is all satisfactory. Please feel free to ask if I need = to provide any more information and may I thank you in advance for your = help. With my Best Wishes Steve Darlow ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C228CF.C1E8DC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Sir or Madam
 
I am conducting some research into the = heavy bomber=20 support for D-day (both RAF's Bomber Command and 8th Air = Force) and=20 I was wondering if I could post a message on the 303rd Talk = Forum. I'm=20 not sure if you need me to subscribe to the forum or not. If so please = let me=20 know and I will do so.
 
Firstly a brief introduction. I am the = grandson of=20 an RAF Bomber Command pilot. I am a published author and I have written = the war=20 story of my grandfather and his crew and this was published in 2000 = entitled=20 ‘Lancaster Down!’ My second book has just been published. = Entitled=20 ‘Sledgehammers for Tintacks’ it details RAF Bomber = Command’s role in the flying=20 bomb counter offensive 1943-44. My publisher is the well known military=20 aviation publisher Grub Street (London).
 
I am now = researching=20 and writing for my next book, provisionally entitled 'D-day Bombers'. In = the=20 past I have focused on the RAF, but now I wish to broaden my research to = the=20 American heavy bomber involvement and the American aircrew experience. = This=20 aspect is still quite new to me and as such I readily welcome = offer’s of help=20 from American veterans.
 
I intend to tell the D-day support = story through=20 the experiences of aircrew, and here I would like to ask for help. = I would=20 be grateful to speak to any 303rd BG veterans who could help = by=20 passing on their experiences of D-day support missions (and not just the = 6th=20 June 1944, but the missions leading up to D-day and in support of the = invasion=20 through June to September 1944).
I hope you this is all = satisfactory.=20 Please feel free to ask if I need to provide any more information and = may I=20 thank you in advance for your help.
 
With my Best Wishes
 
Steve=20 Darlow
------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C228CF.C1E8DC80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 11 15:30:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:30:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 9-0-9 In-Reply-To: <3D2C8280.19587F68@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > We were diverted one day to a Brit AF, bunch of 303rd B-17s and B-24s both and when the weather cleared late in the day, one of the B-17s appeared on the scene and did an absolute vertical banked 360 at minimum altitude and every B-24 person looked agape, green with envy. Even today with all the sophisticated stuff in the air, the Fortress is the sweetest of them all. Thank you, Boeing. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 12 03:41:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:41:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-17 vs B-24 Message-ID: <28.295940c1.2a5f9bc7@aol.com> Howdy Fellows, I am not a WW2 vet, nor even a pilot. I did work for several years with a fine man named Charles S. Soloski. I had asked "Chuck" this very question (what was different about piloting a '17 versus a '24?) He said that the '17 was just a real beauty to fly because of it's sleekness, good balance, and large wing area. The '24 on the other hand was not well balanced, nor sleek, and the Davis Wing had a small area with what the engineers call "high loading." Chuck said in clean air the '24 was a brute to fly. The pilot was constantly moving the yoke left and right and fore and aft just to stay straight and level. Add to this the disturbed air of airplanes in front of you flying in a group and it was a really hard job. Chuck served in the UK in a '24 group. He flew in 1943, and flew 37 missions. He said he enlisted in the Air Corps in 1940 as a mechanic. When the war broke out for America in 1941, his two best friends decided to take a test to become pilots. There was an urgent need for pilots. Anyway, they told Chuck to take the test also, but he said he didn't want to. They urged him on so he took it. The other two didn't make it but Chuck did. Chuck was a backup for the first "infamous" Ploesti mission. He practiced in North Africa for weeks. He thanks God that he wasn't called upon to fill in. Chuck said after the war ended, he was assigned to go pick up brand new P-51 fighters and fly them out to the desert. He said they smelled like new cars and had only production flight test time on them. He said when he landed he got out and a bulldozer pushed the plane onto a pile for scrapping. Chuck stayed in the Air Force and retired in 1969. He said his last duty was as Maintenance Officer in an F-4 Phantom squadron. He really marveled that he learned to fly in a Stearman bi-plane and finished up flying the Phantom. Chuck flew B-45 Canberra's and had to bail out of one. He said he did everything wrong in preparing for bail-out yet lived to tell about it. I lost track of Chuck and feel priviliged to have known him. Oh well, take care guys...........Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 14 17:27:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:27:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <108.14af1833.2a63005d@aol.com> Were any of you men on the Texas Raider or around the Texas Raider when you were with the 303rd? I saw it yesterday at the Terre Haute Airfair(Terre Haute, Indiana). Terry Lucas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 14 20:29:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:29:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Rasslin' over Schweinfurt In-Reply-To: <20020711160107.9359353E1E@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Bill Heller- It must have been some dicey air if you had to pull on the right pedal and push the left. What was typically the cause of this? Were you trying to maintain course across a strong crosswind? Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 14 22:06:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:06:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-17 Message-ID: <39.29fb49b8.2a6341dd@aol.com> Leroy, thank you so much for talking to me. I am really sorry about Norman Grant. It's really sad that so many AAF are passing away. My dad was on a B-24J in Italy in 1944. He was a flight engineer and top turret gunner. He died back in January of 1994 and I miss talking to him about the war. It is very informative talking to men like you and Merlin Miller who were there in the thick of it. I remember seeing the "Nine O Nine" when I was younger I believe when it was on tour at Hulman Airport in Terre Haute, if I am not mistaken. I think it was with the "All American," B-24. I also want ted to tell you that a young man who flys passenger airlines was talking to me and I mentioned my dad and also the 303rd. He said he got to fly the "Aluminum Overcast" while it was on tour at Hulman Airport. I have been wanting to tell the 303rd members this and you reminded me. I am glad you remembered Merlin, I think he met Bill Heller also at a reunion. Thanks, Terry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 14 22:46:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:46:17 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <20020714214618.HSSJ6994.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> I believe the aircraft you saw at Terre haute was actually Thunderbird, which is owned by Lone Star Flight Musuem. Texas Raider is currently in maintenance with the wings off. How was the show. Steve S > Were any of you men on the Texas Raider or around the Texas Raider when you > were with the 303rd? I saw it yesterday at the Terre Haute Airfair(Terre > Haute, Indiana). > Terry Lucas > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 00:26:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:26:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: Steve the show was great, there were three AT-6s and one SNJ. They made the most flights. There was a PT-22, a P-47, three Wacos, Thunderbirds, Harrier, Stealth, a Navy PJ2(?) from WW2 which was two engines. Could the B-17 be the Thunderbird with the Texas Raider painted temporarily? Terry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 01:54:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:54:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D31BACF.15696.21103AC@localhost> > Steve the show was great, there were three AT-6s and one SNJ. > They made the most flights. There was a PT-22, a P-47, three > Wacos, Thunderbirds, Harrier, Stealth, a Navy PJ2(?) from WW2 > which was two engines. Could the B-17 be the Thunderbird with > the Texas Raider painted temporarily? Terry > It must have been Thunderbird, from the schedule below. I can't imagine them changing the name for any reason. http://www.lsfm.org/ls_evnts.htm Texas Raiders is down until September. See here: http://www.gulfcoastwing.org/ Interesting! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 03:15:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:15:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider References: <3D31BACF.15696.21103AC@localhost> Message-ID: <002f01c22ba5$82ef1520$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Well, it will be one or the other. one of the men at our lunch on Weds ( a son of B-17 gunner) said it was the Texas Raider, but I asked could it be the Thunderbird from Galveston, TX and he answered yeah that's the one. I'll call the office of the CAF, Southern Minn. wing tomorrow and find out. The Thunderbird has on many occassions been at the OshKosh air show and then stops off in StPaul for the airshow. A few years ago it didn't make it down from Wisc. because of some engine prolem delay and then bad weather set in. I had made sure that my family would be out to see it , but we caught it the next year. My 7 yr old grandson enjoyed crawling thru it except for walkig along the gangway thru the bomb bay. Oh Well I didn't like it that much in 1044. LeRoy christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider > > Steve the show was great, there were three AT-6s and one SNJ. > > They made the most flights. There was a PT-22, a P-47, three > > Wacos, Thunderbirds, Harrier, Stealth, a Navy PJ2(?) from WW2 > > which was two engines. Could the B-17 be the Thunderbird with > > the Texas Raider painted temporarily? Terry > > > > It must have been Thunderbird, from the schedule below. I > can't imagine them changing the name for any reason. > > http://www.lsfm.org/ls_evnts.htm > > Texas Raiders is down until September. See here: > http://www.gulfcoastwing.org/ > > Interesting! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 04:14:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:14:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider In-Reply-To: <002f01c22ba5$82ef1520$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: Hi Leroy, When I went to England last year with a bunch of veterans on a 91st BG tour, I learned so much that my head still swims. I learned a new appreciation for the men that I had not known. I am kind of a short, fat, little bugger...I worked a lot of years as a carpenter, and I don't any more....one of the pilots told me that I would never be able to get through the catwalk, because I was too fat. Not only have I been through the catwalk, I have crawled to and from on the "909" for about 2 hours. It was the one and only time I had been on a B-17. The Collins foundation had brought it and a Heinkel 111 to the airport at Victoria, on Vancouver Is. There is a fine museum there, with a number of interesting artifacts. This was about 5 years back, and I spent a number of hours on the plane. They thought I was a little bit nuts. Much of my time on board was just sitting, and thinking. Now...could I get through that catwalk with a flight suit on, carrying an Oxygen bottle, under fire, at 25,000 feet? I won't say. I do know that the few men who had to do that, that are still alive today, deserve every little bit of recognition that there is. A salute to any one of you that ever traversed the catwalk, during combat. There are very few of you left. With respect, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Leroy Audrey Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:16 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Well, it will be one or the other. one of the men at our lunch on Weds ( a son of B-17 gunner) said it was the Texas Raider, but I asked could it be the Thunderbird from Galveston, TX and he answered yeah that's the one. I'll call the office of the CAF, Southern Minn. wing tomorrow and find out. The Thunderbird has on many occassions been at the OshKosh air show and then stops off in StPaul for the airshow. A few years ago it didn't make it down from Wisc. because of some engine prolem delay and then bad weather set in. I had made sure that my family would be out to see it , but we caught it the next year. My 7 yr old grandson enjoyed crawling thru it except for walkig along the gangway thru the bomb bay. Oh Well I didn't like it that much in 1044. LeRoy christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider > > Steve the show was great, there were three AT-6s and one SNJ. > > They made the most flights. There was a PT-22, a P-47, three > > Wacos, Thunderbirds, Harrier, Stealth, a Navy PJ2(?) from WW2 > > which was two engines. Could the B-17 be the Thunderbird with > > the Texas Raider painted temporarily? Terry > > > > It must have been Thunderbird, from the schedule below. I > can't imagine them changing the name for any reason. > > http://www.lsfm.org/ls_evnts.htm > > Texas Raiders is down until September. See here: > http://www.gulfcoastwing.org/ > > Interesting! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 07:14:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:14:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Rasslin' over Schweinfurt References: Message-ID: <3D32683D.CFE4333F@attglobal.net> McClanahan .... No, I was merely TIRED! And it was at 28000 feet! During COMBAT! Cheers! WCH Mike McClanahan wrote: > Bill Heller- > > It must have been some dicey air if you had to pull on the right pedal > and push the left. What was typically the cause of this? Were you > trying to maintain course across a strong crosswind? > > Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 14:08:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:08:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yo, Gordy: All good wishes from Tenn. When I had the privilege of flying in B-17 "909" I got a call in the radio room that it was OK to come up front and take my old post in the nose. Took me fully 10 minutes to crawl up there and get my skinny legs and big shoes situated around the Norden but man, was it worth the effort. Just to touch those old knobs and things brought back a flood of memories. Almost had to have help untangling my feet on the way out. Best to you, good health and Cheers....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 15:29:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:29:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] exhibits and flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bob. It's always good to hear from you. I hope you are on the road to full recovery from your recent operation. It has been a while now, so it could be you are all healed up. If '909' ever gets up this way again, I will sure try and wangle a ride. I talked to one of the guys that works at the Museum at the Victoria airport just two weeks ago. He is an interesting fellow by the name of Reg. I was telling him about my father's dual citizenship, and how that allowed him to get a pension from the USAAF, and from Canada (this of course was before my Dad passed away last year). My mom still gets a widows pension. Reg said that he was getting THREE pensions. He flew first with the British (he is an Englishman), then with the Americans, and now he lives in Canada, so gets old age pension here, too. Why I mention all this is that Reg told me they are trying to get "FiFi", the B-29, up here for their next Museum fly-in. He doesn't know when that will be, but he said he'd be sure to let me know. Seeing a B-29 in person would be a treat, too, although I would much rather they brought '909' back again. Best to you, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bob Hand Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:08 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Yo, Gordy: All good wishes from Tenn. When I had the privilege of flying in B-17 "909" I got a call in the radio room that it was OK to come up front and take my old post in the nose. Took me fully 10 minutes to crawl up there and get my skinny legs and big shoes situated around the Norden but man, was it worth the effort. Just to touch those old knobs and things brought back a flood of memories. Almost had to have help untangling my feet on the way out. Best to you, good health and Cheers....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 16:18:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:18:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider In-Reply-To: References: <002f01c22ba5$82ef1520$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D32AF7D.15979.B602BB@localhost> > ....one of the pilots told me that I would never be able > to get through the catwalk, because I was too fat. Not only have I > been through the catwalk, I have crawled to and from on the "909" for > about 2 hours. It was the one and only time I had been on a B-17. The 909 has come through Portland Maine near hear each of the last 3 years in the fall. The Aluminum Overcast also comes too, so I've been through the planes 3 or 4 times. I went and squeezed my 250 lbs through the catwalk 3 years ago and 2 years ago (last year it came here on Sept 10th, and they closed the airport before I could see it). I can barely get through that catwalk with light summer clothes on, and I can't imagine squeezing through there with cold weather gear, oxygen bottles and parachutes on, even back in college days when I was 90 pounds lighter. The last time I went through the 909, they had the B-24 there too, and I think that the catwalk on the B-24 is even smaller, I think because if I remember right, the supports are more nearly parallel, whereas the supports you have to squeeze between are kind of "V" shaped on the B-17, so it seemed to be wider at the top, giving you a little more room. I just plain couldn't get through the catwalk on the B-24. I had to jump down through the bomb bay to the ground, which because of it's low belly and roll up doors, is easy to do. I uploaded a couple pictures of the 909 catwalk which shows the very slight "V" shape. Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the B-24 catwalk, but I'm pretty sure that I remember it being less of a "V". See http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/b17cat.html I must say, that the 3 or 4 times I've toured the B-17s, that the thing that impressed me the most was how tight the quarters were, except for back in the Radio room or by the waist guns. Up front, there seemed to be very little room. Of course, I guess that is just the way it is in airplanes. I know my son flies a Piper Cherokee, and I have a hard time fitting in that too, at least with all the camera gear I took along. I guess overweight people just aren't meant to be fly. :-) (I do fit in an airline seat BTW, but I'll never fly in one of those again, because I never go anywhere without my swiss army knifes). I wish that I had time to just sit and reflect when touring the 909 and Aluminum Overcast, but there are always so many people going through, that it's hard to stop or you hold up the whole event. They seem to like to keep the line moving. The first time I toured the 909, there was a 40 minute line waiting to go through, so it wasn't convenient to go through a second time. The second time I toured the 909, the lines were shorter, and I did manage to stop for a while. Some people actually thought I was associated with the tour, and asked me some questions. I told them I was just a tourist like them, but answered the questions. (luckily I got the answers right.) Next time I intend to do it like you, and stay for a couple hours, and get to know the plane better, rather than zipping through and taking pictures, then wishing I had looked closer at something else. I wish they would let me sit in the pilot's seat, but that seems to be forbidden territory. My son, who is a pilot, asked them if he could log some time in the co-pilot seat on one of their flight experiences, and they said "yes, but you'd have to be the only passenger, and pay for all the passengers who would otherwise have been on the ride", ie something like $4000, instead of their normal $350 fee. Anyway, those B-17 tours come to airports all over the country, so be sure to go see one when it comes near by. See: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_sch-wof2002.htm http://www.b17.org/schedule.html http://www.arizonawingcaf.org/events.htm Check the schedules often, as they don't go much into the future. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 17:36:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:36:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17G #44-83884 Yankee Doodle II Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6AC40@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Thought some of you would enjoy this, some nice photos of a restored Flying Fortress on display. I saw this aircraft on a videotape back in the early 90's. Anyone know if this B-17G displayed at Barksdale AFB is still painted in the 303rd markings of BN-R Yankee Doodle II? It's interesting that the 303rd BGA does not acknowledge this aircraft more often if at all! Did the 303rd BGA have anything to do with the application paint scheme? If not, someone wanted to honor you guys in a nice way. http://www.armyairforces.com/b-17restored-4483884.asp Note the tail markings on this restoration, there perfect. Compare this to the tail markings on the restored Thunderbird that operates out of Galveston Texas who's Triangle C is WAY too small and funny looking! Someone fix that injustice!!! This site has some 33 B-17's listed "On Static Display" with a few possibly being restored to flying condition someday! Just goes to show there will always be a Fortress in the air somewhere in the US many decades from now. Todd- (303rd BGA A634) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 19:14:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:14:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out B-17 909 Message-ID: <138.1144826a.2a646b1f@aol.com> --part1_138.1144826a.2a646b1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Tom Philo History Interest Page "909" B-17 --part1_138.1144826a.2a646b1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Tom Philo History Interest Page "909" B-17 --part1_138.1144826a.2a646b1f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 20:28:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:28:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17G #44-83884 Yankee Doodle II References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6AC40@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <002d01c22c35$d0e43220$5568db40@billowen> Todd, I was at the Museum 3 or 4 years ago. It's only 100 miles from where I live. The Yankee Doodle II still looks the same as in the pictures. It seems to be well preserved, but it is roped off where you cannot touch it. I just wonder what it may be like on the inside.....Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:36 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17G #44-83884 Yankee Doodle II > Thought some of you would enjoy this, some nice photos of a restored > Flying Fortress on display. I saw this aircraft on a videotape back in the > early 90's. Anyone know if this B-17G displayed at Barksdale AFB is still > painted in the 303rd markings of BN-R Yankee Doodle II? It's interesting > that the 303rd BGA does not acknowledge this aircraft more often if at all! > Did the 303rd BGA have anything to do with the application paint scheme? If > not, someone wanted to honor you guys in a nice way. > > http://www.armyairforces.com/b-17restored-4483884.asp > > Note the tail markings on this restoration, there perfect. Compare this to > the tail markings on the restored Thunderbird that operates out of Galveston > Texas who's Triangle C is WAY too small and funny looking! Someone fix that > injustice!!! This site has some 33 B-17's listed "On Static Display" with a > few possibly being restored to flying condition someday! Just goes to show > there will always be a Fortress in the air somewhere in the US many decades > from now. > > Todd- (303rd BGA A634) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 20:20:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:20:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Message-ID: Hi list! Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on the target even if the bomb bay doors would not open? If no, what did you do? If opened by this method, could they be closed again? If yes, how? If not, what problems did this cause for the return flight? Thanks!! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 21:37:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:37:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out B-17 909 References: <138.1144826a.2a646b1f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c22c3f$766cd180$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C22C15.8D321440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable interesting site, must get back to it. it's Monday, I've completed my volunteer work, had lunch and a = rest---and I did a little homework--the Thunderbird will be a Fleming = Field, St. Paulk, MN on Aug 3rd and 4th see their web site = www.caswm.org/ Anyone out there know of "Buzz" Kaplan, Transportation Museum, = Owatonna, MN. ? He was involved in the recovery of a P-38 from the = Greenland Icecap. He lost his life this month in the crash of his = "Jenny" that was being readied to go to the airshow at Oshkosh. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thor542086@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 1:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out B-17 909 Click here: Tom Philo History Interest Page "909" B-17=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C22C15.8D321440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
interesting site, must get back to = it.
it's Monday, I've completed my = volunteer work, had=20 lunch and a rest---and I did a little homework--the Thunderbird will be = a=20 Fleming Field, St. Paulk, MN on Aug 3rd and 4th see their web site  = www.caswm.org/
 
Anyone out there know of "Buzz" = Kaplan, =20 Transportation Museum, Owatonna, MN. ?  He was involved in the = recovery of=20 a P-38 from the Greenland Icecap. He lost his life this month in the = crash of=20 his "Jenny" that was being readied to go to the airshow at = Oshkosh.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thor542086@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 = 1:14 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out = B-17=20 909

Click here: Tom = Philo=20 History Interest Page "909" B-17 = ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C22C15.8D321440-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 21:57:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:57:28 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17G #44-83884 Yankee Doodle II References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6AC40@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <3D333738.9F0C271F@attglobal.net> Todd ... My only comment anent your story on the B17 at Barksdale is WHY we cannot get it for a permanent static display at the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum at Savannah. Cheers! WCH "Hollritt, Todd" wrote: > Thought some of you would enjoy this, some nice photos of a restored > Flying Fortress on display. I saw this aircraft on a videotape back in the > early 90's. Anyone know if this B-17G displayed at Barksdale AFB is still > painted in the 303rd markings of BN-R Yankee Doodle II? It's interesting > that the 303rd BGA does not acknowledge this aircraft more often if at all! > Did the 303rd BGA have anything to do with the application paint scheme? If > not, someone wanted to honor you guys in a nice way. > > http://www.armyairforces.com/b-17restored-4483884.asp > > Note the tail markings on this restoration, there perfect. Compare this to > the tail markings on the restored Thunderbird that operates out of Galveston > Texas who's Triangle C is WAY too small and funny looking! Someone fix that > injustice!!! This site has some 33 B-17's listed "On Static Display" with a > few possibly being restored to flying condition someday! Just goes to show > there will always be a Fortress in the air somewhere in the US many decades > from now. > > Todd- (303rd BGA A634) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 15 23:25:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020715222533.38016.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. The connection was in the step at the forward end of the catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that the doors could be opened in time for the drop as the handle for manual operation was stowed on the aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More likely than not the bombs would be released at an opportune time on the way home.If the manual door operation failed, the pilot had a release handle that he could pull. A similar handle was located at the forward end of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion of the "pull" released the bomb door latches, permitting the doors to open independent of the retracting screw. The second portion of the pull released the bombs salvo and unarmed. It would be possible to release the bombs on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the first part of the pull operation in time. However, the timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy performing other tasks on the bomb run such as maintaining a constant air speed and altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list! > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on the > target even if the bomb > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you do? > If opened by this method, > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If not, > what problems did this > cause for the return flight? > Thanks!! > > Dave > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 01:41:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:41:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] exhibits and flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hi Bob. > It's always good to hear from you. I hope you are on the road to full > recovery from your recent operation. It has been a while now, so it could > be you are all healed up. > If '909' ever gets up this way again, I will sure try and wangle a ride. > I talked to one of the guys that works at the Museum at the Victoria > airport just two weeks ago. He is an interesting fellow by the name of > Reg. I was telling him about my father's dual citizenship, and how that > allowed him to get a pension from the USAAF, and from Canada (this of > course was before my Dad passed away last year). My mom still gets a > widows pension. Reg said that he was getting THREE pensions. He flew > first with the British (he is an Englishman), then with the Americans, > and now he lives in Canada, so gets old age pension here, too. > Why I mention all this is that Reg told me they are trying to get "FiFi", > the B-29, up here for their next Museum fly-in. He doesn't know when that > will be, but he said he'd be sure to let me know. Seeing a B-29 in person > would be a treat, too, although I would much rather they brought '909' > back again. > Best to you, > Gordy. > > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. > V8K2W3 > gunnerson@telus.net > "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those > who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." > ************************************* > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bob Hand > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:08 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider > An added note...went for my 6-week checkup and am happy to report that all systems are GO, thanks to that genius Doctor of mine. He described it as a "difficult" surgery involving a prostate (H) of some 436 grams, which is something like a grapefruit or whatever. Many thanks for your concern and best wishes right back atcha! Cheers, Bob Hand> > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 01:54:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:54:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Roger Armstrong passes on Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C22C28.9F5EA850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, All. I am sad to pass on the news that another good man has taken his last flight. I have a copy of Roger’s book, and we discussed it a number of times. He always took time to help where he could and whenever he could, to every query I had of him He will be missed. I will let the 91st BG announcement by Dave Hanst, another 91st BG veteran, explain. Gordy. Roger Armstrong, a member of the 91st Ring, and the 91st Bomb Group Memorial Association, passed away on July 11th in Garden Grove, California. Roger had flown with the 401st Squadron of the 91st, he was the radio operator with the crew of John Askins. Askins and his crew were shot down on a mission to Merseburg on November 2nd, 1944, the day the 91st BG lost 13 airplanes. Roger spent the rest of the war in POW camp. After the war he wrote a book about his experiences titled "U S A The Hard Way", the name of the plane he was flying the day he was shot down. A memorial service will be held at 1 pm, Wednesday, July 17th, at the chapel in Westminster Memorial Park, Westminster, CA. Dave Hanst ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C22C28.9F5EA850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

He= llo, All.

I = am sad to pass on the news that another good man has taken his last = flight.

I = have a copy of Roger’s book, and we discussed it a number of = times.

He= always took time to help where he could and whenever he could, to every query I = had of him

He= will be missed.

I = will let the 91st BG announcement by Dave Hanst, another = 91st BG veteran, explain.

Gordy.

 

 

 Roger Armstrong, a member of the 91st Ring, and the 91st Bomb Group = Memorial

 Association, passed away on July 11th in Garden Grove, California. Roger

 had flown with the 401st Squadron of the 91st, he was the radio = operator

 with the crew of John Askins. Askins and his crew were shot down on = a

 mission to Merseburg on November 2nd, 1944, the day the 91st BG lost = 13

 airplanes. Roger spent the rest of the war in POW = camp. After the war he

 wrote a book about his experiences titled "U S A The Hard Way", the = name of

 the plane he was flying the day he was shot down.

 

 A memorial service will be held at 1 pm, Wednesday, July 17th, at the = chapel

 in Westminster Memorial Park, Westminster, CA.

 

 Dave Hanst

 

------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C22C28.9F5EA850-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 13:30:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:30:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Message-ID: Bill, Thanks for the answer and two followup questions. If the pilot used the release handle to open the doors, could you get them closed again manually? When over the target why not just drop the bombs through the doors? It seems that it would be better to drop live bombs there then unarmed ones later on. Thanks! Dave -----Original Message----- From: bill runnels [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. The connection was in the step at the forward end of the catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that the doors could be opened in time for the drop as the handle for manual operation was stowed on the aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More likely than not the bombs would be released at an opportune time on the way home.If the manual door operation failed, the pilot had a release handle that he could pull. A similar handle was located at the forward end of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion of the "pull" released the bomb door latches, permitting the doors to open independent of the retracting screw. The second portion of the pull released the bombs salvo and unarmed. It would be possible to release the bombs on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the first part of the pull operation in time. However, the timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy performing other tasks on the bomb run such as maintaining a constant air speed and altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Hi list! > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on the > target even if the bomb > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you do? > If opened by this method, > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If not, > what problems did this > cause for the return flight? > Thanks!! > > Dave > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 15:29:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:29:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Message-ID: <26.2aa8cca0.2a6587cc@aol.com> bill and dave. i had just that experience over brux , but bomb hung and had to straddle open bay to get bomb off hanger. was trying coming from nose with portable oxygen and having to use radio operators portable also. successfully got it out. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 15:56:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:56:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gold diggers Message-ID: This is my third year as President of the WA state chapter of the 8th AFHS. I have gotten a recent education that I wanted to share with you veterans. I have encounter a small group of people who approach our chapter as "interested" in the history of the 8th AF. They come across with some knowledge of the history and then start taking about "artifacts or personal gear". Long story short they are scum sucking dealers and have no interest in history but rather lining their pockets with money after acquiring/selling gear i.e. A-2 jackets, 50 mission crusher, silver wings etc. They will go as far as watching the obituaries and making calls to the widows. When I first became President I made it clear to the younger members that there was to be NO "buying or selling" at chapter meetings. This has worked thus far and the younger members that we have are honorable. We have been given items/artifacts that are logged and signed for and then turned over to the chapter historian. Our younger member do collect WWII 8th AF gear. The difference between them and the greedy dealer is that they display it at schools, meeting and public outings and don't desire to "make a buck". It's a sad thing to see these predators lurking on the bottom. Greg Pierce 8th AFHS - WA E-mail gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 16 22:44:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020716214427.71588.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay doors could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs might become lodged inside the aircraft and some of the armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get the picture? Having said that I am sure it happened that way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay but I wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of my choice would be to lower the doors manually if possible on the way back home and drop them armed on anything to get rid of them. The doors could be closed with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs and fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in the fuses and bring them home but this would not be my choice. Regarding closing the bombay doors after the pilot pulled the release handle, yes the doors could be closed manually or possibly electrically. Hope this answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, bombardier --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > Bill, > Thanks for the answer and two followup questions. > If the pilot used the > release handle to open the doors, could you get them > closed again manually? > When over the target why not just drop the bombs > through the doors? It > seems that it would be better to drop live bombs > there then unarmed ones > later on. > > Thanks! > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: bill runnels [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. The > connection was in the step at the forward end of the > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that the > doors could be opened in time for the drop as the > handle for manual operation was stowed on the > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More likely > than not the bombs would be released at an opportune > time on the way home.If the manual door operation > failed, the pilot had a release handle that he could > pull. A similar handle was located at the forward > end > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion of > the > "pull" released the bomb door latches, permitting > the > doors to open independent of the retracting screw. > The > second portion of the pull released the bombs salvo > and unarmed. It would be possible to release the > bombs > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the first > part of the pull operation in time. However, the > timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy > performing other tasks on the bomb run such as > maintaining a constant air speed and > altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > Hi list! > > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on the > > target even if the bomb > > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you do? > > If opened by this method, > > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If > not, > > what problems did this > > cause for the return flight? > > Thanks!! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 04:43:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:43:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020716214427.71588.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c22d44$2de1e440$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Bill Runnels: I recall that the 303rd really didn't want to have undropped bombs returned to base, the best place for them waa some place on German soil or into the channel. Wasn't the bomb dump at the end of one of the runways? I know one morning of almost being thrown out of my upper bunk when one of the planes on take off didn't quite make altitude and crashed, missing the bomb dump but making one hell of a big noise and shaking the whole base. LeRoy Christenson Naviagator ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:44 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay doors > could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs might > become lodged inside the aircraft and some of the > armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get the > picture? Having said that I am sure it happened that > way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay but I > wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of my > choice would be to lower the doors manually if > possible on the way back home and drop them armed on > anything to get rid of them. The doors could be closed > with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs and > fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in the fuses > and bring them home but this would not be my choice. > Regarding closing the bombay doors after the pilot > pulled the release handle, yes the doors could be > closed manually or possibly electrically. Hope this > answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, > bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > Bill, > > Thanks for the answer and two followup questions. > > If the pilot used the > > release handle to open the doors, could you get them > > closed again manually? > > When over the target why not just drop the bombs > > through the doors? It > > seems that it would be better to drop live bombs > > there then unarmed ones > > later on. > > > > Thanks! > > Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bill runnels [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. The > > connection was in the step at the forward end of the > > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that the > > doors could be opened in time for the drop as the > > handle for manual operation was stowed on the > > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More likely > > than not the bombs would be released at an opportune > > time on the way home.If the manual door operation > > failed, the pilot had a release handle that he could > > pull. A similar handle was located at the forward > > end > > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion of > > the > > "pull" released the bomb door latches, permitting > > the > > doors to open independent of the retracting screw. > > The > > second portion of the pull released the bombs salvo > > and unarmed. It would be possible to release the > > bombs > > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the first > > part of the pull operation in time. However, the > > timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy > > performing other tasks on the bomb run such as > > maintaining a constant air speed and > > altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > Hi list! > > > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on the > > > target even if the bomb > > > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you do? > > > If opened by this method, > > > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If > > not, > > > what problems did this > > > cause for the return flight? > > > Thanks!! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 14:50:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:50:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Message-ID: Bill, Yes, that answers all my questions. Thanks!! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 15:36:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <000701c22d44$2de1e440$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when you were there but the explosion described could be mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead ship of the 358th squadron failed to gain sufficient air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't know what it was until we returned that evening. I was in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it took place....Bill --- Leroy Audrey wrote: > Bill Runnels: > I recall that the 303rd really didn't want to have > undropped bombs returned > to base, the best place for them waa some place on > German soil or into the > channel. Wasn't the bomb dump at the end of one of > the runways? > I know one morning of almost being thrown out of my > upper bunk when one of > the planes on take off didn't quite make altitude > and crashed, missing the > bomb dump but making one hell of a big noise and > shaking the whole base. > LeRoy Christenson > Naviagator > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:44 PM > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay > doors > > could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs might > > become lodged inside the aircraft and some of the > > armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get the > > picture? Having said that I am sure it happened > that > > way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay but I > > wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of my > > choice would be to lower the doors manually if > > possible on the way back home and drop them armed > on > > anything to get rid of them. The doors could be > closed > > with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs and > > fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in the > fuses > > and bring them home but this would not be my > choice. > > Regarding closing the bombay doors after the pilot > > pulled the release handle, yes the doors could be > > closed manually or possibly electrically. Hope > this > > answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, > > bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > Bill, > > > Thanks for the answer and two followup > questions. > > > If the pilot used the > > > release handle to open the doors, could you get > them > > > closed again manually? > > > When over the target why not just drop the bombs > > > through the doors? It > > > seems that it would be better to drop live bombs > > > there then unarmed ones > > > later on. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Dave > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: bill runnels > [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. > The > > > connection was in the step at the forward end of > the > > > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that > the > > > doors could be opened in time for the drop as > the > > > handle for manual operation was stowed on the > > > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More > likely > > > than not the bombs would be released at an > opportune > > > time on the way home.If the manual door > operation > > > failed, the pilot had a release handle that he > could > > > pull. A similar handle was located at the > forward > > > end > > > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion > of > > > the > > > "pull" released the bomb door latches, > permitting > > > the > > > doors to open independent of the retracting > screw. > > > The > > > second portion of the pull released the bombs > salvo > > > and unarmed. It would be possible to release the > > > bombs > > > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the > first > > > part of the pull operation in time. However, the > > > timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy > > > performing other tasks on the bomb run such as > > > maintaining a constant air speed and > > > altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > Hi list! > > > > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on > the > > > > target even if the bomb > > > > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you > do? > > > > If opened by this method, > > > > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If > > > not, > > > > what problems did this > > > > cause for the return flight? > > > > Thanks!! > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 16:07:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:07:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay doors Message-ID: <000501c22da3$b5cc9d00$3cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Being in Air Corps Supply we were "segregated" from the action. Our souce of information was rumors, stories, and/or hearsay. This may be true or not. On approaching the target the bombay doors would open. They were released to hang free - "salvo" switch????? Run was completed. over the channel somebody went int the bomb bay and engaged a door manually. and cranked it back up. The door closed but hit a micro switch.& reversed the crank and flipped the operator out the other side of the bay.---no 'chute. If this didn't happen would it have been possible. Wasn't told to me --I only heard---Maurice From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 17:21:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:21:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors Message-ID: <193.9e501d7.2a66f388@aol.com> Bill, I saw the same thing a little later - it was a pre-dawn toke off - I was lined ready to go when there was a big flash - we knew what it was but didnt find out for sure till we came back from the mission - Its kinda scarry waiting to take off following that but there wasnt anything to do but "give her the gas" and do your best!! Clyde Henning. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 17:51:49 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:51:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] bombs Message-ID: Leroy, speaking of bombs being lodged in the bombbay, my dad was on a mission over Germany his squadron was ready to release their bombs, but the bombay doors would not op(B-24 the bombay slides up)! The squadron was getting low on fuel. The pilot got on the radio and reported a "Mayday" several times. Finally, a voice with a British accent answered, but the people were hard to convince that the American plane was really American. The British finally realized that the squadron was American and let them land on the airfiield. My dad said as they approached the runway there were German planes on each side burning. The British had just taken the airfield from the Germans! That was why the British were leary about leting the bombers land, fearing they might be Germans wanting to take back the airfield. My dad said the Brits gave them tea and biscuits and refueled them. It turns out that either a German spy or a traitor bolted the bombay doors shut. Terry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 18:20:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:20:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #646 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <7f.29310588.2a670162@aol.com> --part1_7f.29310588.2a670162_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Morris here, 360th Sqd. John Scott crew. On one mission we had to salvo our bombs. Electrical problem. What is the difference in saloving and some of the things you have been talking about? I believe our doors were open but not sure of this. --part1_7f.29310588.2a670162_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Morris here, 360th Sqd. John Scott crew. On one mission we had to salvo our bombs. Electrical problem. What is the difference in saloving and some of the things you have been talking about? I believe our doors were open but not sure of this. --part1_7f.29310588.2a670162_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 18:49:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:49:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005401c22dba$4b7f5c00$b000a8c0@Home> Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) scrapbook. He was in the 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. I don't know which ship he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's Delight) often. Did you know him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but Dad wasn't much of a story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I get it back I'll post some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, "bombs away", BDA, nose art. Lots of good stuff. Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s being used in lead or pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Thanks, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when > you were there but the explosion described could be > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't > know what it was until we returned that evening. I was > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it > took place....Bill > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 18:50:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:50:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D35AE59.77946AEE@attglobal.net> Runnels .... That was Werner Goering and crew. I was sitting in the Scouter with Mel Schulstad when it occurred and when I looked at my formation sheet, I thought it was my brother's plane. A sort time later, Goering appeared in his tattered uniform. It sure was foggy that morning. Cheers! WCH bill runnels wrote: > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when > you were there but the explosion described could be > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead > ship of the 358th squadron failed to gain sufficient > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't > know what it was until we returned that evening. I was > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it > took place....Bill > > --- Leroy Audrey wrote: > > Bill Runnels: > > I recall that the 303rd really didn't want to have > > undropped bombs returned > > to base, the best place for them waa some place on > > German soil or into the > > channel. Wasn't the bomb dump at the end of one of > > the runways? > > I know one morning of almost being thrown out of my > > upper bunk when one of > > the planes on take off didn't quite make altitude > > and crashed, missing the > > bomb dump but making one hell of a big noise and > > shaking the whole base. > > LeRoy Christenson > > Naviagator > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bill runnels" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > > > Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay > > doors > > > could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs might > > > become lodged inside the aircraft and some of the > > > armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get the > > > picture? Having said that I am sure it happened > > that > > > way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay but I > > > wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of my > > > choice would be to lower the doors manually if > > > possible on the way back home and drop them armed > > on > > > anything to get rid of them. The doors could be > > closed > > > with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs and > > > fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in the > > fuses > > > and bring them home but this would not be my > > choice. > > > Regarding closing the bombay doors after the pilot > > > pulled the release handle, yes the doors could be > > > closed manually or possibly electrically. Hope > > this > > > answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, > > > bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Thanks for the answer and two followup > > questions. > > > > If the pilot used the > > > > release handle to open the doors, could you get > > them > > > > closed again manually? > > > > When over the target why not just drop the bombs > > > > through the doors? It > > > > seems that it would be better to drop live bombs > > > > there then unarmed ones > > > > later on. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: bill runnels > > [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. > > The > > > > connection was in the step at the forward end of > > the > > > > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that > > the > > > > doors could be opened in time for the drop as > > the > > > > handle for manual operation was stowed on the > > > > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More > > likely > > > > than not the bombs would be released at an > > opportune > > > > time on the way home.If the manual door > > operation > > > > failed, the pilot had a release handle that he > > could > > > > pull. A similar handle was located at the > > forward > > > > end > > > > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion > > of > > > > the > > > > "pull" released the bomb door latches, > > permitting > > > > the > > > > doors to open independent of the retracting > > screw. > > > > The > > > > second portion of the pull released the bombs > > salvo > > > > and unarmed. It would be possible to release the > > > > bombs > > > > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the > > first > > > > part of the pull operation in time. However, the > > > > timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy > > > > performing other tasks on the bomb run such as > > > > maintaining a constant air speed and > > > > altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > > Hi list! > > > > > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on > > the > > > > > target even if the bomb > > > > > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you > > do? > > > > > If opened by this method, > > > > > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If > > > > not, > > > > > what problems did this > > > > > cause for the return flight? > > > > > Thanks!! > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 19:08:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <000501c22da3$b5cc9d00$3cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <20020717180853.83098.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Maurice, if the doors were hanging free it most likely was a salvo operation. Regarding the manual retraction of the doors, the crew member would most likely be in the bombay so it could have happened. The crank attachment was located in the step at the forward end os the catwalk. In a manual operation like this the first thing you do is turn off the power to the doors. Apparently this was not done and it kicked like an old Model-T Ford when you had the spark set to high.........Bill Runnels --- Maurice Paulk wrote: > Being in Air Corps Supply we were "segregated" from > the action. > Our souce of information was rumors, stories, and/or > hearsay. > This may be true or not. On approaching the target > the bombay > doors would open. They were released to hang free - > "salvo" > switch????? Run was completed. over the channel > somebody > went int the bomb bay and engaged a door manually. > and > cranked it back up. The door closed but hit a micro > switch.& > reversed the crank and flipped the operator out the > other side > of the bay.---no 'chute. If this didn't happen would > it have > been possible. > Wasn't told to me --I only heard---Maurice > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 20:46:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <3D35AE59.77946AEE@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20020717194641.56331.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Bill thanks for the info. I also remember the fog. Being my first mission I didn't give it a lot of thought but sure wondered what the explosion was. The fog was still there when we returned. We had a heck of a time finding the runway....Bill runnels --- William Heller wrote: > Runnels .... > > That was Werner Goering and crew. I was sitting in > the > Scouter with Mel Schulstad when it occurred and when > I > looked at my formation sheet, I thought it was my > brother's > plane. A sort time later, Goering appeared in his > tattered > uniform. It sure was foggy that morning. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > bill runnels wrote: > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be > better > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know > when > > you were there but the explosion described could > be > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The > lead > > ship of the 358th squadron failed to gain > sufficient > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of > the > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. > The > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my > first > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but > didn't > > know what it was until we returned that evening. I > was > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off > when it > > took place....Bill > > > > --- Leroy Audrey wrote: > > > Bill Runnels: > > > I recall that the 303rd really didn't want to > have > > > undropped bombs returned > > > to base, the best place for them waa some place > on > > > German soil or into the > > > channel. Wasn't the bomb dump at the end of one > of > > > the runways? > > > I know one morning of almost being thrown out > of my > > > upper bunk when one of > > > the planes on take off didn't quite make > altitude > > > and crashed, missing the > > > bomb dump but making one hell of a big noise and > > > shaking the whole base. > > > LeRoy Christenson > > > Naviagator > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bill runnels" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:44 PM > > > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay > > > doors > > > > could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs > might > > > > become lodged inside the aircraft and some of > the > > > > armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get > the > > > > picture? Having said that I am sure it > happened > > > that > > > > way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay > but I > > > > wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of > my > > > > choice would be to lower the doors manually if > > > > possible on the way back home and drop them > armed > > > on > > > > anything to get rid of them. The doors could > be > > > closed > > > > with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs > and > > > > fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in > the > > > fuses > > > > and bring them home but this would not be my > > > choice. > > > > Regarding closing the bombay doors after the > pilot > > > > pulled the release handle, yes the doors could > be > > > > closed manually or possibly electrically. > Hope > > > this > > > > answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, > > > > bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" > wrote: > > > > > Bill, > > > > > Thanks for the answer and two followup > > > questions. > > > > > If the pilot used the > > > > > release handle to open the doors, could you > get > > > them > > > > > closed again manually? > > > > > When over the target why not just drop the > bombs > > > > > through the doors? It > > > > > seems that it would be better to drop live > bombs > > > > > there then unarmed ones > > > > > later on. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: bill runnels > > > [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay > doors > > > > > > > > > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a > crank. > > > The > > > > > connection was in the step at the forward > end of > > > the > > > > > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely > that > > > the > > > > > doors could be opened in time for the drop > as > > > the > > > > > handle for manual operation was stowed on > the > > > > > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More > > > likely > > > > > than not the bombs would be released at an > > > opportune > > > > > time on the way home.If the manual door > > > operation > > > > > failed, the pilot had a release handle that > he > > > could > > > > > pull. A similar handle was located at the > > > forward > > > > > end > > > > > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first > portion > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > "pull" released the bomb door latches, > > > permitting > > > > > the > > > > > doors to open independent of the retracting > > > screw. > > > > > The > > > > > second portion of the pull released the > bombs > > > salvo > > > > > and unarmed. It would be possible to release > the > > > > > bombs > > > > > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute > the > > > first > > > > > part of the pull operation in time. However, > the > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 21:47:16 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:47:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <193.9e501d7.2a66f388@aol.com> Message-ID: > Bill, I saw the same thing a little later - it was a pre-dawn toke off - I > was lined ready to go when there was a big flash - we knew what it was but > didnt find out for sure till we came back from the mission - Its kinda > scarry waiting to take off following that but there wasnt anything to do but > "give her the gas" and do your best!! > Clyde Henning. > Clyde: This very thing is what so many non-AF amd civvies cannot understand. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 22:33:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:33:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> <005401c22dba$4b7f5c00$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <3D35E2AB.CC029994@attglobal.net> Gary ... At Molesworth we had an A20 and also a stripped down B17E which we called the Fat Cat airplane and BOTH were used at times to do formation scouting, and at time, gunnery practice while towing a sleeve. NOT in lead positions. Mel Schulstad used to fly both of them and had some interesting stories to tell of his flying the A20. BOTH planes were not in official inventory at our Base. Tha A20, I believe, was left over from when the RAF was there and the B17E merely "evolved" but never in inventory. Cheers! Gary Holtorf wrote: > Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) scrapbook. He was in the > 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. I don't know which ship > he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's Delight) often. Did you know > him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but Dad wasn't much of a > story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. > My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I get it back I'll post > some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, "bombs away", BDA, nose > art. Lots of good stuff. > Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s being used in lead or > pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? > Thanks, Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when > > you were there but the explosion described could be > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead > > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't > > know what it was until we returned that evening. I was > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it > > took place....Bill > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 23:47:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <005401c22dba$4b7f5c00$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <20020717224705.12233.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Gary, I can't say that I knew your father but we did fly in the same formation on six missions. We were on his right wing tip on the Feb. 15th mission to Dresden. The next day your father was on our right wing tip and low in the "coffin corner" to Langengreer. The other targets were Gelsenkurchen,Nurnberg, Leipzig and Schwerte. Your father flew co-pilot in the lead ship on the last two. The records suggest that he finished his tour on the mission to Schwerte. I will be looking forward to seeing your pictures. The 303rdBGA does not have a crew photo so if you have one I am sure they would love to post along with all the others......Bill Runnels --- Gary Holtorf wrote: > Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) > scrapbook. He was in the > 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. > I don't know which ship > he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's > Delight) often. Did you know > him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but > Dad wasn't much of a > story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. > My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I > get it back I'll post > some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, > "bombs away", BDA, nose > art. Lots of good stuff. > Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s > being used in lead or > pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this > for me? > Thanks, Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be > better > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know > when > > you were there but the explosion described could > be > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The > lead > > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of > the > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. > The > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my > first > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but > didn't > > know what it was until we returned that evening. I > was > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off > when it > > took place....Bill > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 17 23:51:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:51:46 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> <005401c22dba$4b7f5c00$b000a8c0@Home> <3D35E2AB.CC029994@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00d501c22de4$88a4f2a0$b000a8c0@Home> Thanks Bill - I have a couple of pictures of what I believe to be an A20 in the scrapbook. The ID appears to be PU-S, Nose Art is "Little Rhody" is this the one? - Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > Gary ... > > At Molesworth we had an A20 and also a stripped down B17E which we called the > Fat Cat airplane and BOTH were used at times to do formation scouting, and at > time, gunnery practice while towing a sleeve. NOT in lead positions. Mel > Schulstad used to fly both of them and had some interesting stories to tell of > his flying the A20. BOTH planes were not in official inventory at our Base. > Tha A20, I believe, was left over from when the RAF was there and the B17E > merely "evolved" but never in inventory. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 00:27:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:27:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717224705.12233.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f101c22de9$888bfa20$b000a8c0@Home> Thanks Bill - I'm impressed! Not only missions, but formation positions too! You're right Dad's last mission was to Schwerte on Mar 10th.- Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdB'sGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > Gary, I can't say that I knew your father but we did > fly in the same formation on six missions. We were on > his right wing tip on the Feb. 15th mission to > Dresden. The next day your father was on our right > wing tip and low in the "coffin corner" to > Langengreer. The other targets were > Gelsenkurchen,Nurnberg, Leipzig and Schwerte. Your > father flew co-pilot in the lead ship on the last two. > The records suggest that he finished his tour on the > mission to Schwerte. I will be looking forward to > seeing your pictures. The 303rdBGA does not have a > crew photo so if you have one I am sure they would > love to post along with all the others......Bill > Runnels > > > > > > > > > > > --- Gary Holtorf wrote: > > Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) > > scrapbook. He was in the > > 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. > > I don't know which ship > > he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's > > Delight) often. Did you know > > him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but > > Dad wasn't much of a > > story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. > > My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I > > get it back I'll post > > some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, > > "bombs away", BDA, nose > > art. Lots of good stuff. > > Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s > > being used in lead or > > pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this > > for me? > > Thanks, Gary > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bill runnels" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be > > better > > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know > > when > > > you were there but the explosion described could > > be > > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The > > lead > > > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of > > the > > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. > > The > > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my > > first > > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but > > didn't > > > know what it was until we returned that evening. I > > was > > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off > > when it > > > took place....Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 01:31:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <00d501c22de4$88a4f2a0$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <20020718003112.96129.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> I don't know about "little rhody" butt the PU-S marking is the 360th squadron......Bill --- Gary Holtorf wrote: > Thanks Bill - I have a couple of pictures of what I > believe to be an A20 in > the scrapbook. The ID appears to be PU-S, Nose Art > is "Little Rhody" is > this the one? - Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > Gary ... > > > > At Molesworth we had an A20 and also a stripped > down B17E which we called > the > > Fat Cat airplane and BOTH were used at times to do > formation scouting, and > at > > time, gunnery practice while towing a sleeve. NOT > in lead positions. Mel > > Schulstad used to fly both of them and had some > interesting stories to > tell of > > his flying the A20. BOTH planes were not in > official inventory at our > Base. > > Tha A20, I believe, was left over from when the > RAF was there and the B17E > > merely "evolved" but never in inventory. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 02:00:16 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:00:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <3D35E2AB.CC029994@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Gary ... > > At Molesworth we had an A20 and also a stripped down B17E which we called the > Fat Cat airplane and BOTH were used at times to do formation scouting, and at > time, gunnery practice while towing a sleeve. NOT in lead positions. Mel > Schulstad used to fly both of them and had some interesting stories to tell of > his flying the A20. BOTH planes were not in official inventory at our Base. > Tha A20, I believe, was left over from when the RAF was there and the B17E > merely "evolved" but never in inventory. > > Cheers! > > > > Gary Holtorf wrote: > >> Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) scrapbook. He was in the >> 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. I don't know which ship >> he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's Delight) often. Did you know >> him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but Dad wasn't much of a >> story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. >> My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I get it back I'll post >> some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, "bombs away", BDA, nose >> art. Lots of good stuff. >> Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s being used in lead or >> pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? >> Thanks, Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "bill runnels" >> To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors >> >>> Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better >>> for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when >>> you were there but the explosion described could be >>> mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead >>> ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient >>> air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the >>> runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The >>> crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first >>> mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't >>> know what it was until we returned that evening. I was >>> in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it >>> took place....Bill >>> >>> > > Question: What was the deal on the A-31 Vultee Vengeance? I recall that aircraft checking formations, missing bolts & gun barrels, etc. I recall a mass visit to the flight line to watch this a/c doing hammerheads to dislodge a hung landing gear Obviously pilot made it OK. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 02:06:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #646 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: <7f.29310588.2a670162@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020718010639.42594.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Bob, the discussion evolved from what are the options if the bomb bay doors are inoperative. Hope you have been following the on going discussion. It has been interesting.......Bill Runnels --- BOMDRPR303@aol.com wrote: > Bob Morris here, 360th Sqd. John Scott crew. On one > mission we had to salvo > our bombs. Electrical problem. What is the > difference in saloving and some of > the things you have been talking about? I believe > our doors were open but not > sure of this. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 02:55:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors In-Reply-To: <00f101c22de9$888bfa20$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <20020718015519.5923.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Gary, let me hasten to tell you that the information provide regarding your father is contained in the 303rdbga CD "The Molesworth Story". My memory is okay for my age but it is not good enough to set forth such details.HA HA Take care,....Bill Runnels --- Gary Holtorf wrote: > Thanks Bill - I'm impressed! Not only missions, but > formation positions too! > You're right Dad's last mission was to Schwerte on > Mar 10th.- Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdB'sGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 4:47 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > Gary, I can't say that I knew your father but we > did > > fly in the same formation on six missions. We were > on > > his right wing tip on the Feb. 15th mission to > > Dresden. The next day your father was on our right > > wing tip and low in the "coffin corner" to > > Langengreer. The other targets were > > Gelsenkurchen,Nurnberg, Leipzig and Schwerte. Your > > father flew co-pilot in the lead ship on the last > two. > > The records suggest that he finished his tour on > the > > mission to Schwerte. I will be looking forward to > > seeing your pictures. The 303rdBGA does not have a > > crew photo so if you have one I am sure they would > > love to post along with all the others......Bill > > Runnels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Gary Holtorf wrote: > > > Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) > > > scrapbook. He was in the > > > 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb > 15th. > > > I don't know which ship > > > he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's > > > Delight) often. Did you know > > > him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, > but > > > Dad wasn't much of a > > > story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the > gaps. > > > My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon > as I > > > get it back I'll post > > > some of the pictures. I have crew shots, > enroute, > > > "bombs away", BDA, nose > > > art. Lots of good stuff. > > > Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / > B26s > > > being used in lead or > > > pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on > this > > > for me? > > > Thanks, Gary > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bill runnels" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be > > > better > > > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know > > > when > > > > you were there but the explosion described > could > > > be > > > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. > The > > > lead > > > > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > > > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end > of > > > the > > > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes > later. > > > The > > > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my > > > first > > > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but > > > didn't > > > > know what it was until we returned that > evening. I > > > was > > > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off > > > when it > > > > took place....Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 04:18:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:18:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c22e09$c6ddc040$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Bill: I flew the Dresden mission the day before, 2/14/45, As I said I was in the sack that morning, your message refreshed my memory that crew did get out and it was lucky the plane veered left of the end of the runway, I think if it had gone left it would have been very close to the bomb storage dump, I know alot of people were feeling pretty lucky. LeRoy ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when > you were there but the explosion described could be > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead > ship of the 358th squadron failed to gain sufficient > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't > know what it was until we returned that evening. I was > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it > took place....Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Leroy Audrey wrote: > > Bill Runnels: > > I recall that the 303rd really didn't want to have > > undropped bombs returned > > to base, the best place for them waa some place on > > German soil or into the > > channel. Wasn't the bomb dump at the end of one of > > the runways? > > I know one morning of almost being thrown out of my > > upper bunk when one of > > the planes on take off didn't quite make altitude > > and crashed, missing the > > bomb dump but making one hell of a big noise and > > shaking the whole base. > > LeRoy Christenson > > Naviagator > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bill runnels" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > > > Dave, dropping the bombs through closed bombay > > doors > > > could create all kinds of trouble. The bombs might > > > become lodged inside the aircraft and some of the > > > armature wires pulled from the fuses etc. Get the > > > picture? Having said that I am sure it happened > > that > > > way and the bombs cleared the aircraft okay but I > > > wouldn't want to take the risk. The option of my > > > choice would be to lower the doors manually if > > > possible on the way back home and drop them armed > > on > > > anything to get rid of them. The doors could be > > closed > > > with no problem.Depending on the type of bombs and > > > fuses, one could reinsert the cotter keys in the > > fuses > > > and bring them home but this would not be my > > choice. > > > Regarding closing the bombay doors after the pilot > > > pulled the release handle, yes the doors could be > > > closed manually or possibly electrically. Hope > > this > > > answers your questions.........Bill Runnels, > > > bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Thanks for the answer and two followup > > questions. > > > > If the pilot used the > > > > release handle to open the doors, could you get > > them > > > > closed again manually? > > > > When over the target why not just drop the bombs > > > > through the doors? It > > > > seems that it would be better to drop live bombs > > > > there then unarmed ones > > > > later on. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: bill runnels > > [mailto:billrunnels@yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:26 PM > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > > > > > Dave, the doors could be opened with a crank. > > The > > > > connection was in the step at the forward end of > > the > > > > catwalk. If on the bonb run it isn't likely that > > the > > > > doors could be opened in time for the drop as > > the > > > > handle for manual operation was stowed on the > > > > aft-bulkhead of the radio compartment. More > > likely > > > > than not the bombs would be released at an > > opportune > > > > time on the way home.If the manual door > > operation > > > > failed, the pilot had a release handle that he > > could > > > > pull. A similar handle was located at the > > forward > > > > end > > > > of the catwalk in the bombay. The first portion > > of > > > > the > > > > "pull" released the bomb door latches, > > permitting > > > > the > > > > doors to open independent of the retracting > > screw. > > > > The > > > > second portion of the pull released the bombs > > salvo > > > > and unarmed. It would be possible to release the > > > > bombs > > > > on the bomb run if the pilot could execute the > > first > > > > part of the pull operation in time. However, the > > > > timing is unlikely because the pilot was busy > > > > performing other tasks on the bomb run such as > > > > maintaining a constant air speed and > > > > altitude......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > > Hi list! > > > > > Was it standard procedure to drop the bombs on > > the > > > > > target even if the bomb > > > > > bay doors would not open? If no, what did you > > do? > > > > > If opened by this method, > > > > > could they be closed again? If yes, how? If > > > > not, > > > > > what problems did this > > > > > cause for the return flight? > > > > > Thanks!! > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > > > http://autos.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 04:37:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:37:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors References: <20020717143655.25009.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> <005401c22dba$4b7f5c00$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <003201c22e0c$7c5314a0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Gary: Correct--you can read about pathfinders in the book "The Mighty Eigth WAR MANUEL" by Roger A, Freeman, published by Motorbokks International A few weeks ago at our Minn Chapter of 8th AFHS weekly lunch, one of our members, Jim Anderson, gave an oral history of his air force signal corps experience of building a radar set at MIT and then accompanying the mounted unit in it's plane to England. His duty was to keep it operating order. LeRoy Christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Holtorf" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > Bill - I just checked my Dad's (Ernest Holtorf) scrapbook. He was in the > 360th too and flew the Dresden mission on Feb 15th. I don't know which ship > he flew that day but did fly in PU E (Daddy's Delight) often. Did you know > him? I grew up flipping through this scrapbook, but Dad wasn't much of a > story teller. I'd like to fill in some of the gaps. > My digital camera is "in the shop", but as soon as I get it back I'll post > some of the pictures. I have crew shots, enroute, "bombs away", BDA, nose > art. Lots of good stuff. > Bye the way I remember Dad talking about A20s / B26s being used in lead or > pathfinder roles. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? > Thanks, Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:36 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Stuck bomb bay doors > > > > Leroy, you are correct in stating it would be better > > for the bombs to hit German soil. I don't know when > > you were there but the explosion described could be > > mission #315 to Dresden on February 15, 1945. The lead > > ship of the 358th squadron to gain sufficient > > air speed on take off and crashed off the end of the > > runway. The aircraft exploded ten minutes later. The > > crew got out with miner injuries. That was my first > > mission and we heard the muffled explosion but didn't > > know what it was until we returned that evening. I was > > in the 360th and we were lined up for take off when it > > took place....Bill > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 05:25:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:25:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Talk Digest - Vol 1 #647 Message-ID: <116.145d5955.2a679d26@aol.com> --part1_116.145d5955.2a679d26_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a list of 303rd BG(H) assigned non-tactical aircraft see: http://www.303rdbga.com/ac-aircraft.html We had several A-20 "Havoc" aircraft in assigned inventory known by the British Version DB-7B. They were officially assigned to the 41st CBW at Molesworth, but maintained by the 303rd BG(H) and frequently flown by 303rd BG(H) Headquarters officers. They appear in the monthly 303rd BG(H) Inventory Report of Aircraft. Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_116.145d5955.2a679d26_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a list of 303rd BG(H) assigned non-tactical  aircraft see:
       http://www.303rdbga.com/ac-aircraft.html
We had several A-20 "Havoc" aircraft in assigned inventory known by the British Version DB-7B.  They were officially assigned to the 41st CBW at Molesworth, but maintained by the 303rd BG(H) and frequently flown by 303rd BG(H) Headquarters officers.  They appear in the monthly 303rd BG(H) Inventory Report of Aircraft.

Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_116.145d5955.2a679d26_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 09:15:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:15:22 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Kennedy Jnr. Message-ID: <002301c22e33$5ee76cf0$03e8fc3e@RAY> I appreciate that my query is not directly to do with 303rd BG matters, but I guess a more open-forum is not discouraged. I read somewhere that the late President's elder brother, Joe Kennedy, a member of the 8th AF, was killed whilst flying a bomber laden with high explosive, making the aircraft itself a flying bomb. I believe the idea was to crash the bomb-laden aircraft onto a specific target. Presumably, the reduced-crew then baled out, over friendly territory, after having set the bomber on its target-course? Does anyone know what aircraft Joe Kennedy Jnr was flying the day he was killed? Was it, as I suspect a B-24, or was it the B-17? More interestingly, did anyone ever come across stories of missions of this type, or was it the job of a special unit within the Mighty Eighth, and of which you would have no knowledge? Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 19:37:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:37:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. Message-ID: <19c.5745cea.2a6864d9@aol.com> RE: 303rd BG -Talk Digest, Vol 1 - #648 - Message #4 from Ray Coosey (7/18/02) For details on the death of Lt Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. see: http://www.jpkf/BIOG.html (Biography) http//www.arcgives.gov/exhibit_hall/a_people_at_war__in_europe/Lt_joseph_kenne dy_jr.html (Mission) Navy Lt Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. was killed on 12 August 1944 flying in the Navy version of the B-24 (a PB4Y-1). I can find no record of the Serial number. He was attached to the United States Navy, Atlantic Fleet, Bombing Squadron 110, on a highly secret mission named Project Anvil (Also known as Operation Aprodite). The aircraft was loaded with explosives and piloted part of the way to the target. The Pilot would then bail out and the aircraft would be guided tby radio control to targets in France (German submarine pens or V-2 rocket-launching sites). Lt Kennedy's aircraft exploded shortly after takeoff and he and his CoPilot were killed instantly. Harry D. Gobrecht From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 16:07:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:07:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Kennedy Jnr. Message-ID: Ray, Found this info from the AAF website (formerly Heavy Bombers). Search under Kennedy in the archives forum to find more postings on this subject: I have a copy of the book "Aphrodite". It states in there that the cause of the loss of Joe Kennedy was a faulty switch that the Navy had been warned about, as being too sensitive. It also seems the USAAF came up with the idea about using the war weary B17's loaded with explosives and radio controlled, to go after the targets. The Navy was not about to be outdone by the USAAF and came up with their version using the PB4Y-1's (Navy version of the B24). Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 20:16:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Keserich, Jon) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:16:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help Message-ID: Recently, I found you very informative web site and began looking up information about my father, John Keserich, who served in the 427th. As the family history goes, he was a waist gunner on a B-17. Unfortunately, I can't find his name listed anywhere on you sight. I have contacted the Dept of Defense an have been able to confirm that he was in the 427th for four years. If anyone can provide me with any information, I would appreciate it. To all of you great men who served during our worlds greatest conflict, thank you. Jon Keserich -----Original Message----- From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com [mailto:Pilot8thAF@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:37 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. RE: 303rd BG -Talk Digest, Vol 1 - #648 - Message #4 from Ray Coosey (7/18/02) For details on the death of Lt Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. see: http://www.jpkf/BIOG.html (Biography) http//www.arcgives.gov/exhibit_hall/a_people_at_war__in_europe/Lt_joseph_ken ne dy_jr.html (Mission) Navy Lt Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. was killed on 12 August 1944 flying in the Navy version of the B-24 (a PB4Y-1). I can find no record of the Serial number. He was attached to the United States Navy, Atlantic Fleet, Bombing Squadron 110, on a highly secret mission named Project Anvil (Also known as Operation Aprodite). The aircraft was loaded with explosives and piloted part of the way to the target. The Pilot would then bail out and the aircraft would be guided tby radio control to targets in France (German submarine pens or V-2 rocket-launching sites). Lt Kennedy's aircraft exploded shortly after takeoff and he and his CoPilot were killed instantly. Harry D. Gobrecht From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 20:24:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:24:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Kennedy Jnr. Message-ID: Friend Ray, Joe Kennedy was on a very secret mission. What I know is very little but. He was not in the 8th but was a navy man. The plane was a Navy version of a B17. From here on is just my suspicions. The plane was loaded with explosives and could be radio controlled. The Germans were maybe building a ramp for a future V 7.9 V?s which was aimed at New York City. Do you supposed they were going to bail out and the plane was to fly on and destroy that ramp? Or maybe it was just the U-boats Pens? The word is that their plane exploded before they reached the bail out point Best Wishes Dear English Friend, Jack s From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 21:35:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:35:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D36C433.8641.114E98@localhost> > Recently, I found you very informative web site and began > looking up information about my father, John Keserich, who > served in the 427th. As the family history goes, he was a waist > gunner on a B-17. Unfortunately, I can't find his name listed > anywhere on you sight. I have contacted the Dept of Defense an > have been able to confirm that he was in the 427th for four > years. If anyone can provide me with any information, I would > appreciate it. Jon, I can't find him either. Can you give us more information? Pilot's name? - aircraft name? any other crewmen's names? Date assigned? Anything at all like that might help. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 20:31:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:31:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Kennedy Jnr. Message-ID: <1a9.54e1192.2a68718e@aol.com> Ray , I should have looked at my letter before I sent it. It was a Navy version Of a B24. I must have been very sleepy Please forgive me. If we are still speaking, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 18 20:41:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Keserich, Jon) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:41:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help Message-ID: Gary, Thank you for your quick response. I have no other information concerning the his plane. As a matter of fact that is what I was hoping to find. All I know is that he did basic in San Antonio. He entered the Air Corp in March of 42 and was discharged in November of 45. The was some mention on his D214 that he served in a conflict in "Royan". One story that was told was that his plan was shot down over France. I'm not certain if that's accurate, but it was what I heard from family members. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Moncur [mailto:glm@303rdBGA.com] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 4:36 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: Pilot8thAF@aol.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Help > Recently, I found you very informative web site and began > looking up information about my father, John Keserich, who > served in the 427th. As the family history goes, he was a waist > gunner on a B-17. Unfortunately, I can't find his name listed > anywhere on you sight. I have contacted the Dept of Defense an > have been able to confirm that he was in the 427th for four > years. If anyone can provide me with any information, I would > appreciate it. Jon, I can't find him either. Can you give us more information? Pilot's name? - aircraft name? any other crewmen's names? Date assigned? Anything at all like that might help. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 19 01:22:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:22:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help In-Reply-To: <3D36C433.8641.114E98@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3D37239B.16870.2CE35C3@localhost> > > Recently, I found you very informative web site and began > > looking up information about my father, John Keserich, who > > served in the 427th. ....... > >...... > Jon, > I can't find him either. Can you give us more information? Gary.... I just started scanning through my microfilm, and I found an entry on May 15 or 16th, 1945, where John Keseric (ie it left off one letter) got a promotion from Sgt to S/Sgt . I can copy the document if necessary, but it looks like he WAS with the 427th. I thought that perhaps his name was mis-spelled on the web page , so I did a search for the SN it listed, which was 35066927, and it came up with a John Kaseric, Damon's crew. I bet that Kaseric was confused with Keserich ???? Perhaps Jon can verify the SN??? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 19 03:24:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:24:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help In-Reply-To: <3D37239B.16870.2CE35C3@localhost> References: <3D36C433.8641.114E98@localhost> Message-ID: <3D3715F2.21266.2016D5@localhost> Jon, It is very likely that we have your father listed as John Kaseric, which was discovered by Bill Jones doing some digging for you. If that is him, he was on the 427th Malcolm F. Damon Crew and flew on the last few missions of the war. We show him flying on missions 357, 358, 359, 361, 362, 363 and 364. Mission #359 was to Bordeaux/Royan France. He is listed as the Flight Engineer and top turret gunner. As Bill discovered, his serial number was 35066927. Are we on the right track? Bill, Thanks for the research. What a great bunch of guys we have here! > Gary.... I just started scanning through my microfilm, and I > found an entry on May 15 or 16th, 1945, where John Keseric (ie > it left off one letter) got a promotion from Sgt to S/Sgt . I > can copy the document if necessary, but it looks like he WAS > with the 427th. I thought that perhaps his name was mis-spelled > on the web page , so I did a search for the SN it listed, which > was 35066927, and it came up with a John Kaseric, Damon's crew. > I bet that Kaseric was confused with Keserich ???? > Perhaps Jon can verify the SN??? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 19 13:52:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Keserich, Jon) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:52:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Help Message-ID: Bill, I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you've done. I looked at the paper work the government sent and indeed they did misspell his name. My father had a great deal of difficulty in his life, however he was my dad, and now you guys brought him a little closer to me and my sons. You men are a wonderful group of people who I am deeply indebted to. God bless you! Jon -----Original Message----- From: Gary Moncur [mailto:glm@303rdBGA.com] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:25 PM To: JonKes@camcod.com; 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: wejones@megalink.net; Pilot8thAF@aol.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Help Jon, It is very likely that we have your father listed as John Kaseric, which was discovered by Bill Jones doing some digging for you. If that is him, he was on the 427th Malcolm F. Damon Crew and flew on the last few missions of the war. We show him flying on missions 357, 358, 359, 361, 362, 363 and 364. Mission #359 was to Bordeaux/Royan France. He is listed as the Flight Engineer and top turret gunner. As Bill discovered, his serial number was 35066927. Are we on the right track? Bill, Thanks for the research. What a great bunch of guys we have here! > Gary.... I just started scanning through my microfilm, and I > found an entry on May 15 or 16th, 1945, where John Keseric (ie > it left off one letter) got a promotion from Sgt to S/Sgt . I > can copy the document if necessary, but it looks like he WAS > with the 427th. I thought that perhaps his name was mis-spelled > on the web page , so I did a search for the SN it listed, which > was 35066927, and it came up with a John Kaseric, Damon's crew. > I bet that Kaseric was confused with Keserich ???? > Perhaps Jon can verify the SN??? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jul 20 17:33:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit Message-ID: <20020720163355.95359.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> The famed Collins B-17 and B-24 were in the Twin Cities area at the Anoka County Airport July 16 - 19. It sure was great seeing them again. I participated in a Bomber Crew Forum on Thursday Night and over 200 people attended at a price of $3.00 each. Didn't get inside the aircraft as they were in the air constantly from 6pm to 9pm giving rides at $350.00 each. They made a number of low level passes which my son and I enjoyed.It is gratifying to see people turn out in large numbers to these events. The questions to the panel members of the forum were excellent and came mostly from those who were middle aged...Bill Runnels, Bombardier __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 21 04:40:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:40:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit References: <20020720163355.95359.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004d01c23068$51e52920$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Bill: You did a good job on the panel, in fact , the whole panel gave a good presentation of their crew position and some of the actions on their missions. I waas going to stand up and ask you about "stuck bomb bay doors", but I thought you might have had enough of that subject. The strangest things can happen in the most unusual places---after the panel and other air crew members present came up to the front, a couple of fellows came up to me and started to ask questions and I focused in on them, it was kind of dim light in that area I thought I recognized a voice. When perring under the bill of his 8th air force cp I recognized the face of a fellow I had known for 28 years at work., but I had knew him as being in the Army Dental Corps Reserve moving up to a pretty high rank. The suprise to me and to him also, he was a navigator, trained at San Marcos and knew Norm Grant, and I was a navigator but for all those years of working contact we never once had discussed our WWII experience. Some times the world gets very small. I have invited him to show up for the Weds. lunchs. LeRoy Christenson, Navigator ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit > The famed Collins B-17 and B-24 were in the Twin > Cities area at the Anoka County Airport July 16 - 19. > It sure was great seeing them again. I participated in > a Bomber Crew Forum on Thursday Night and over 200 > people attended at a price of $3.00 each. Didn't get > inside the aircraft as they were in the air constantly > from 6pm to 9pm giving rides at $350.00 each. They > made a number of low level passes which my son and I > enjoyed.It is gratifying to see people turn out in > large numbers to these events. The questions to the > panel members of the forum were excellent and came > mostly from those who were middle aged...Bill Runnels, Bombardier > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 21 14:59:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 06:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit In-Reply-To: <004d01c23068$51e52920$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020721135940.75817.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Leroy, thanks for your comments. It was a good evening and many excellent questions were asked after the presentations. I received one that had never been asked before, at least not in this type of setting, "Did you think about the people you were killing when dropping the bombs?". My son sure enjoyed the low level passes of both aircraft. He had toured "Miss Angels" before but had not seen them in the air. See you soon at lunch. Best regards,.....Bill Runnels --- Leroy Audrey wrote: > Bill: > You did a good job on the panel, in fact , the whole > panel gave a good > presentation of their crew position and some of the > actions on their > missions. I waas going to stand up and ask you about > "stuck bomb bay doors", > but I thought you might have had enough of that > subject. > The strangest things can happen in the most unusual > places---after the panel > and other air crew members present came up to the > front, a couple of fellows > came up to me and started to ask questions and I > focused in on them, it was > kind of dim light in that area I thought I > recognized a voice. When perring > under the bill of his 8th air force cp I recognized > the face of a fellow I > had known for 28 years at work., but I had knew him > as being in the Army > Dental Corps Reserve moving up to a pretty high > rank. The suprise to me and > to him also, he was a navigator, trained at San > Marcos and knew Norm Grant, > and I was a navigator but for all those years of > working contact we never > once had discussed our WWII experience. Some times > the world gets very > small. I have invited him to show up for the Weds. > lunchs. > LeRoy Christenson, Navigator > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bill runnels" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 11:33 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit > > > > The famed Collins B-17 and B-24 were in the Twin > > Cities area at the Anoka County Airport July 16 - > 19. > > It sure was great seeing them again. I > participated in > > a Bomber Crew Forum on Thursday Night and over 200 > > people attended at a price of $3.00 each. Didn't > get > > inside the aircraft as they were in the air > constantly > > from 6pm to 9pm giving rides at $350.00 each. They > > made a number of low level passes which my son and > I > > enjoyed.It is gratifying to see people turn out in > > large numbers to these events. The questions to > the > > panel members of the forum were excellent and came > > mostly from those who were middle aged...Bill > Runnels, Bombardier > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > > http://health.yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 21 19:45:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:45:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <14d.1120c9a7.2a6c5b63@aol.com> Bill, The question of concern for the people you were killing speaks volumes about attitudes in peace and war.In peacetime most normal people could not shoot another under any circumatances.Yet in war we were indoctrinated to say,"nothing personal, but I'm going to try to kill you." I was in the Infantry before the Air Force and the 303rd and we were taught to aim for their legs because a wounded man required more care,facilities and supplies and a dead man was simply buried. Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 22 04:00:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Holtorf) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:00:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs References: <14d.1120c9a7.2a6c5b63@aol.com> Message-ID: <027701c2312b$f5ee8700$b000a8c0@Home> Jack - Ultimately the art of war is to "spend the other guys money". There are other objectives of course: to eliminate his ability to wage war. You're absolutely right, a wounded troop requires evac, docs, rehab on and on. This thought is not lost even on the selection of the 5.56mm M16 over the 7.62mm M14 caliber for the standard rifle. There are of course other considerations but...- Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs > Bill, > The question of concern for the people you were killing speaks volumes > about attitudes in peace and war.In peacetime most normal people could not > shoot another under any circumatances.Yet in war we were indoctrinated to > say,"nothing personal, but I'm going to try to kill you." I was in the > Infantry before the Air Force and the 303rd and we were taught to aim for > their legs because a wounded man required more care,facilities and supplies > and a dead man was simply buried. Jack Amram > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 22 06:43:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 01:43:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17/B-24 Visit Message-ID: Bill Runnels, That letter was not to me. But I have been asked the same question when I have made presentations to students. Yes, I answered, I did think of them. I also thought of all the people the Nazis killed before we ever got there, The English, Belgians, Holland, Poland, French on and on. I even thought that some of them were blond headed blue eyed girls one of whom might very well have become my wife and mother of my children had I gone to High school or college with them. I also thought "If we do not defeat them they will be in the USA as soon as they finish defeating England and you would not be here in this great school and have this great country to live in." SO Bombs away and I hope they hit and wipe out the target. I'm sorry I have to kill you but, You Guys elected and followed Hitler. I didn't. Sherman was right, But I am proud of what we did and you here should be very glad for what we did and that we succeeded. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 22 15:22:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:22:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <027701c2312b$f5ee8700$b000a8c0@Home> Message-ID: <3D3BDCEF.3131.88DA67@localhost> > Jack - Ultimately the art of war is to "spend the other guys money". > There are other objectives of course: to eliminate his ability to wage > war. You're absolutely right, a wounded troop requires evac, docs, > rehab on and on. This thought is not lost even on the selection of the > 5.56mm M16 over the 7.62mm M14 caliber for the standard rifle. There > are of course other considerations but...- Gary I agree. Along similar logic lines, when considering the functionality of chemical agent detectors (nerve gas, mustard, etc) there is an equal or perhaps more important consideration given to false alarms compared to sensitivity to real situations. The reason being that if the detector is so sensitive that it false alarms a lot, then the troops will be made in-effective because they will be dressed up in protective gear all the time. From a military viewpoint, the main function of things like chemical agents is not to kill, but to slow down the enemy, and make it less effective. Relative to the 8th AF, I think this logic also had a lot to do with the decision to do daylight bombing rather than night bombing like the British. Ie, with only a threat of bombing at night, German industry would be free to produce during the day, however, with constant air raid alarms going off at all hours of the day and night, the production had to have been slowed significantly (vs what it could have been). Ie one of the biggest benefits of the bombing was the disruption caused by the fear of the bombing, and didn't even require them to hit their target. I think this is often ignored by many historians, who claim that the precision bombing was not effective. Even a more up to date example. The impact of modern day terrorists is not so much what they destroy, or how many they kill, but how they effect daily life by putting the fear of terrorist attack in the public, and by forcing the public to put up with disruption and cost of security measures. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 22 21:32:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:32:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <14d.1120c9a7.2a6c5b63@aol.com> Message-ID: > Bill, > The question of concern for the people you were killing speaks volumes > about attitudes in peace and war.In peacetime most normal people could not > shoot another under any circumatances.Yet in war we were indoctrinated to > say,"nothing personal, but I'm going to try to kill you." I was in the > Infantry before the Air Force and the 303rd and we were taught to aim for > their legs because a wounded man required more care,facilities and supplies > and a dead man was simply buried. Jack Amram > Jack: Adding on to your most valid comment, as a bomber force, we were 5 miles or so away from our targets which made the whole thing a bit impersonal and remote, not close-range or face-to-face combat as in the infantry, Still, an 88mm shell hitting your aircraft and decimating the crew and contents brought it all into deadly focus and the "kill or be killed" instinct set in...it was war and either them or us, after all. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 01:48:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Karen-Elizabeth Bailey-Summers) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:48:9 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Regarding attitudes Message-ID: <4120027223048947@mindspring.com>

Sirs:
  There are some among us who do not understand the acts of war, because we weren't there.  However, we are still grateful for all that you did for our nation, and the world.  I will never know what it feels like to drop a load of bombs, pilot the plane, or even perform the calculations to navigate the plane as my father did.  But I do feel immense pride in this nation and her servicemen (and service women), especially those who flew in that terrible war.  I sometimes feel torn that civilians were killed or injured, however that is part of the cost of any war.  Also, civilians were injured in all countries involved - I realize the America had fewer losses than other countries, but we did not start the war.  Thank you for finishing it.  God bless you and your comrades.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Bailey-Summers
 
--- Karen-Elizabeth Bailey-Summers
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
 

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 01:53:00 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:53:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs References: Message-ID: <001201c231e3$4b6a7380$6401a8c0@none> I guess the reason the engagement was defined as a World War is that the stakes were deemed extremely high, and because they were, the risks were equally as high...to combatants and non-combatants alike.My dad was "just ground crew" but I never pressed my father for his views as they were self evident: His true regrets were for the avoidable losses, accidents, collisions, weather, mechanical failures, flak, etc.. Everything else was mission- and the these guys that enabled the crews to fly didn't prompt them for this kind of second-guessing info either. Every bit as important as screwing the engine on correctly was not undermining the confidence of the flight crew. Seems that you can't sharpen the spear without knowing what it is for. Not to make light of the subject , but early on in his UK stint my dad was on a London pass when a buzz bomb decimated his favorite pub and blew him and half a dozen others across the street. There were several people killed and injured and although my dad was OK he always claimed that was when the war "went personal." - but I knew that was only an attempt at humor. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hand" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs > > Bill, > > The question of concern for the people you were killing speaks volumes > > about attitudes in peace and war.In peacetime most normal people could not > > shoot another under any circumatances.Yet in war we were indoctrinated to > > say,"nothing personal, but I'm going to try to kill you." I was in the > > Infantry before the Air Force and the 303rd and we were taught to aim for > > their legs because a wounded man required more care,facilities and supplies > > and a dead man was simply buried. Jack Amram > > > Jack: Adding on to your most valid comment, as a bomber force, we were 5 > miles or so away from our targets which made the whole thing a bit > impersonal and remote, not close-range or face-to-face combat as in the > infantry, Still, an 88mm shell hitting your aircraft and decimating the > crew and contents brought it all into deadly focus and the "kill or be > killed" instinct set in...it was war and either them or us, after all. > Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 04:09:49 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:09:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <184.b6c3197.2a6e22fd@aol.com> Bob Hand & Jack Amram, Over the months I have been receiving this crazy new fangled e-mail I have learned to look forward to your comments. I like people that think, girls and fried chicken. and I get the impression that you two think. Now don't get me wrong. I don't always agree with your thoughts entirely but don't feel bad. I don't even always agree with Bill Heller either and he is the greatest. You were right. Our war was a bit impersonal due to our 5 mile altitude until an 88 MM went off in our number 3 wheel well but there was more. I learned my gunnery well before I went in the service. I was a member of, and hit man for, the Arizona and New Mexico underworld. We would never ever shoot anyone in the legs as he could still shoot back. When we shot someone we wanted him to stay shot. We didn't use small caliber for the same reason. We liked 45s and would have used 50s if they had made them in a pistol. I was taught to "Shoot first and ask questions later" I was raised a Democrat. I got over that years ago, but I still lie a lot. I hope I get to meet you two at Branson. Thanks for your contributions to Gary's e-mail. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher Sorry to have to leave you but I must phone my sister before she goes to sleep. She sleeps with 2 pistols under her pillow too. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 06:23:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:23:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <184.b6c3197.2a6e22fd@aol.com> Message-ID: 'Lo Jack, You make me smile, my friend. When I look at this post I smile a bit, and then consider the forum, the source, and the author.....well....I wonder...how much is true and how much is...well...never ever say anything might be a stretch... Keep it up .... You sure get my attention... This is NOT an invitation for anyone to make ANY kind of political statement... Telling tales about the war and experiences is a treat.... Gordy. (PS...If it gets TOO political, then Gary...or maybe myself...will just deep six it...keep it to bomber discussion, and the 303rd...:) thnx, folks....) G. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 gunnerson@telus.net "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com] On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 8:10 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #650 - 3 msgs Bob Hand & Jack Amram, Over the months I have been receiving this crazy new fangled e-mail I have learned to look forward to your comments. I like people that think, girls and fried chicken. and I get the impression that you two think. Now don't get me wrong. I don't always agree with your thoughts entirely but don't feel bad. I don't even always agree with Bill Heller either and he is the greatest. You were right. Our war was a bit impersonal due to our 5 mile altitude until an 88 MM went off in our number 3 wheel well but there was more. I learned my gunnery well before I went in the service. I was a member of, and hit man for, the Arizona and New Mexico underworld. We would never ever shoot anyone in the legs as he could still shoot back. When we shot someone we wanted him to stay shot. We didn't use small caliber for the same reason. We liked 45s and would have used 50s if they had made them in a pistol. I was taught to "Shoot first and ask questions later" I was raised a Democrat. I got over that years ago, but I still lie a lot. I hope I get to meet you two at Branson. Thanks for your contributions to Gary's e-mail. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher Sorry to have to leave you but I must phone my sister before she goes to sleep. She sleeps with 2 pistols under her pillow too. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 18:04:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020723160339.D835953671@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20020723170439.90357.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> A quick note to Bill Conklin about his dad being "only ground crew". I know that this was said in jest, but speaking as one who flew combat in another time and place I can say that two things that gave me peace of mind was the expertise of my fellow aircrewmen and the unquestioned faith I had in our ground folks. It can get mightly lonesome up there in a four-prop contraption with the bullets flying and whatnot, and knowing that said contraption wouldn't crap out at the worse moment was like a mother's hug. Three heartfelt cheers for your father and the other unsung heros back at home plate! Chuck Golden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 23:17:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:17:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs References: <20020723170439.90357.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D3DD616.27D1AD11@attglobal.net> Golden ... Once, when a CO of a Squadron, I was talking to a member of my Squadron, and in the conversation he referred to himself, thusly .... "Sir, I am only a Sergeant,so I do not ...... " I interrupted him. Told to him stand at attention and then said, "Sergeant! NO ONE in this Squadron is an "only" .... You are a SERGEANT and one of the BEST damn Sergeants in the best damn Squadron in the best damn Group of the best damn Air Corps! And DON'T YOU FORGET IT! At ease!" He shook my hand and muttered a "Thank you, Sir." ... and walked off. I noted a strange feeling in the Squadron after a few days .... as the story made its rounds. I may have imagined it, but EVERYONE seemed to walk MORE erect and more PROUDLY! I feel this way today. Cheers! Chuck Golden wrote: > A quick note to Bill Conklin about his dad being "only > ground crew". I know that this was said in jest, but > speaking as one who flew combat in another time and > place I can say that two things that gave me peace of > mind was the expertise of my fellow aircrewmen and the > unquestioned faith I had in our ground folks. It can > get mightly lonesome up there in a four-prop > contraption with the bullets flying and whatnot, and > knowing that said contraption wouldn't crap out at the > worse moment was like a mother's hug. Three heartfelt > cheers for your father and the other unsung heros back > at home plate! > > Chuck Golden > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 23 23:55:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:55:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs Message-ID: <136.113f05b7.2a6f38de@aol.com> The ultimate pragmatist,Bill Heller has not weighed in yet on the question of concern for those being bombed.I would guess that he was philosophical about his job and not too concerned about colateral damage.I'm sure Harry Truman cons sidered civilian causualties versus 100,000 G.I. deaths in house to house fighting and then OKed the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 03:33:39 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:33:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs References: <20020723170439.90357.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> <3D3DD616.27D1AD11@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001401c232ba$8552d7e0$6401a8c0@desktop1> Probably shouldn't have used the term "only" - my dad would have clouted the back of my head if he were alive. So many words want to tumble out related to hearing the Molesworth experience through my father's perspective...I dont know if he knew you, Bill Heller, but you sound like a wise leader. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 06:17:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:17:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs References: <136.113f05b7.2a6f38de@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3E385E.B768CA54@attglobal.net> Amram ... I have not yet wieghed in because the question and remarks are moot. It was war. They were the enemy. One mission I led to Dresden 16 of my relatives were in the city. We were at war. It is not kosher to make the statement that "we were following orders" .... but, we were. Our war was brutal. On both sides. And, we won it. There were times I imagined what it must have been like in many British cities which were unmercifully bombed, to include the Buzz Bombs which I encountered on many leaves in London. But I always came back to the same fact. We were at war. WCH AmramSr@aol.com wrote: > The ultimate pragmatist,Bill Heller > has not weighed in yet on the question of concern for those being > bombed.I would guess that he was > philosophical about his job and not > too concerned about colateral damage.I'm sure Harry Truman cons sidered > civilian causualties versus > 100,000 G.I. deaths in house to house fighting and then OKed the bombs on > Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 06:30:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:30:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs References: <20020723170439.90357.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> <3D3DD616.27D1AD11@attglobal.net> <001401c232ba$8552d7e0$6401a8c0@desktop1> Message-ID: <3D3E3B76.2D135B0A@attglobal.net> Bill Conklin ... Am not certain if I knew your Dad. He was a member of a very proud unit, the 303rd. I was there for almost two years and served in two different squadrons and a short stint at Group Hq. I began in one squadron, went to another, and returned to my first squadron again. Our numbers are dwindling, but from what I read and see, our memory and legacy are in good hands. Cheers! WCH Bill Conklin wrote: > Probably shouldn't have used the term "only" - my dad would have clouted > the back of my head if he were alive. So many words want to tumble out > related to hearing the Molesworth experience through my father's > perspective...I dont know if he knew you, Bill Heller, but you sound like a > wise leader. > > Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 14:05:16 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:05:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020723170439.90357.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amidst the incredible joy of having finished 35, I hope we on Fink's Crew didn't fail to express one iota of our feeling of thanks to our Ground Crew for the "mother's hug" as Chuck Golden put it. Talk about reassurance...as one who lost their mother at age 8, some heartfelt memories resurface. It's never too late to recognize what an indispensable part those guys in the tent and hangar all played in our success. Fink's Crew #46517- Bob Hand Cheers and Thanks! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 17:46:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:46:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Ground Crews Message-ID: --part1_c9.25923201.2a7033fe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen to latest Ground Crew comments. I flew 20 missions in 358th BS B-17G Neva-The Silver Lady. It ended the war by flying 127 missions - tops in the 358th BS and 2nd in the 303rd/. This B-17 was flown by 43 different Pilots. The B-17 was named after Crew Chief M/Sgt Albert C. Fox's wife Neva. He was an exceptionaly capable Crew Chief. M/Sgt Fox was a people person. His living quarters were in a large tent next to the ramp where Neva was maintained. In the cold winter mornings in 1944-1945 Fox would invite the crewmen into his heated tent to keep warm while awaiting flares for taxi and take off preperation. He has attended a few of our reunions and I have always spent time introducing him to many of the reunion attendees. In introducing him I stated "I would like you to meet the man who saved my life". My crew never worried about the mechanical and structural shape of "Neva". The fact that this B-17 might fail us never entered our minds. We knew it wouldn't. All of combat men know of at least one instance missions were aborted and/or where lives were lost due to mechanical failures. My Crew Chief M/Sgt Fox is one of my WWII heroes and I am sincere when I tell others that his actions saved my life. I could say the same thing about other Crew Chiefs and their maintenance teams. They all were 303rd heroes in the minds of most Pilots and crews. Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot --part1_c9.25923201.2a7033fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen to latest Ground Crew comments.
I flew 20 missions in 358th BS B-17G Neva-The Silver Lady.
It ended the war by flying 127 missions - tops in the 358th BS and 2nd in the 303rd/.
This B-17 was flown by 43 different Pilots.  The B-17 was named after Crew Chief M/Sgt Albert C. Fox's wife Neva.  He was an exceptionaly capable Crew Chief.
M/Sgt Fox was a people person.  His living quarters were in a large tent next to the ramp where Neva was maintained.  In the cold winter mornings in 1944-1945 Fox
would invite the crewmen into his heated tent to keep warm while awaiting flares for taxi and take off preperation.
He has attended a few of our reunions and I have always spent time introducing him to many of the reunion attendees.  In introducing him I stated "I would like you to meet the man who saved my life".   My crew never worried about the mechanical and structural shape of "Neva".  The fact that this B-17 might fail us never entered our minds.  We knew it wouldn't.  All of combat men know of at least one instance missions were aborted and/or where lives were lost due to mechanical failures.
My Crew Chief M/Sgt Fox is one of my WWII heroes and I am sincere when I tell others that his actions saved my life.
I could say the same thing about other Crew Chiefs and their maintenance teams.
They all were 303rd heroes in the minds of most Pilots and crews.
Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot --part1_c9.25923201.2a7033fe_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 21:33:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:33:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] I love Ground Crews Too. Message-ID: I know I don't usually put anything serious on this e-mail, but I want to make an exception on this Ground Crew Subject. I personally flew 35 mission in probably in almost every plane we had in the 358th. About half were as copilot and half as first pilot. Many of the copilot missions were as check pilot with a new crew on their first Mission. (my most hazardous assignment) WE NEVER ONCE ABORTED. We never ever even thought of aborting, even when we went to Merseburg. I do not remember any mechanical problem we ever had that could have been caused faulty maintainence/Do you wonder why I loved the ground Crews even more than Girls and fried chicken? Fellows I still do. You are absolutely the Greatest. I'm not even still upset with you when on cold mornings you wanted to start the engines for us before we got them flooded. Bless you men, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 22:53:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:53:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground Crews Message-ID: I have read many books on the Mighty Eighth, but have never come across one written by a ground crewman. Certainly this would not be too exciting for most readers, but as we can see from Harry's most excellent comments, they were the very foundation of the 8th. Can anyone recommend one to me? Kevin >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Ground Crews >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:46:54 EDT > >Amen to latest Ground Crew comments. >I flew 20 missions in 358th BS B-17G Neva-The Silver Lady. >It ended the war by flying 127 missions - tops in the 358th BS and 2nd in >the >303rd/. >This B-17 was flown by 43 different Pilots. The B-17 was named after Crew >Chief M/Sgt Albert C. Fox's wife Neva. He was an exceptionaly capable Crew >Chief. >M/Sgt Fox was a people person. His living quarters were in a large tent >next >to the ramp where Neva was maintained. In the cold winter mornings in >1944-1945 Fox >would invite the crewmen into his heated tent to keep warm while awaiting >flares for taxi and take off preperation. >He has attended a few of our reunions and I have always spent time >introducing him to many of the reunion attendees. In introducing him I >stated "I would like you to meet the man who saved my life". My crew >never >worried about the mechanical and structural shape of "Neva". The fact that >this B-17 might fail us never entered our minds. We knew it wouldn't. All >of combat men know of at least one instance missions were aborted and/or >where lives were lost due to mechanical failures. >My Crew Chief M/Sgt Fox is one of my WWII heroes and I am sincere when I >tell >others that his actions saved my life. >I could say the same thing about other Crew Chiefs and their maintenance >teams. >They all were 303rd heroes in the minds of most Pilots and crews. >Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 24 23:40:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:40:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs References: Message-ID: <002401c23363$27c695e0$6401a8c0@desktop1> Bob, my father prepped aircraft in the 360th- he also lost his mother young, likely between the age of 5 and 12 years old. In addition his first wife passed away just prior to his enlistment in 1941/42 at age 28- the fact hta he was older was one of the reasons guys referred to him as Uncle Joe. e-mail is Staybolt@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hand" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #652 - 5 msgs > Amidst the incredible joy of having finished 35, I hope we on Fink's Crew > didn't fail to express one iota of our feeling of thanks to our Ground Crew > for the "mother's hug" as Chuck Golden put it. Talk about reassurance...as > one who lost their mother at age 8, some heartfelt memories resurface. It's > never too late to recognize what an indispensable part those guys in the > tent and hangar all played in our success. Fink's Crew #46517- Bob Hand > Cheers and Thanks! > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 05:08:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:08:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: 8th Air Force story Message-ID:

Thought everyone might be interested in what is up with the 8AF today.

Brian S. McGuire

>From: Kingsley-Smith Erin S 1Lt 55 WG/PA
>To: brianmac2@hotmail.com
>Subject: 8th Air Force story
>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:34:50 -0000
>
>
>http://www2.acc.af.mil/accnews/jul02/02293.html
>
>Released: July 16, 2002
>8th Air Force continues integration of information operations
>By Master Sgt. Rick DelaHaya
>8th Air Force Public Affairs
>
>BARKSDALE AIR FORCE BASE, La. (ACCNS) -- The "Mighty Eighth" is set to
>become even mightier with the addition of four operational wings as the Air
>Force moves closer to the second phase of integrating information operations
>into its combat forces.
>
>"Integrating information operations into 8th Air Force is a natural
>transition for us," said Lt. Gen. Bruce Carlson, 8th AF commander.
>"Information is power, and we have to be able to protect ours and to attack
>our enemies kinetically and non-kinetically."
>
>In this second phase, unit realignments will begin in October and will be
>completed by October 2003.
>
>Headquartered at Barksdale AFB, La., 8th AF will receive the following
>units: the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale AFB, Calif.; the 55th Wing at
>Offutt AFB, Neb.; the 552nd Air Control Wing at Tinker AFB, Okla.; and the
>93rd Air Control Wing at Robins AFB, Ga. The 93rd is leaving 9th Air Force,
>headquartered at Shaw AFB, S.C., while the rest are leaving 12th Air Force,
>headquartered at Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz.
>
>Additionally, 8th AF will gain the 41st and 43rd electronic combat squadrons
>at Davis-Monthan, and the 11th, 15th and 17th reconnaissance squadrons, the
>Air Force's first unmanned aerial vehicle squadrons, at Nellis AFB, Nev.
>
>"We want to give the war-fighting commander better 'eyes on target' to
>effectively use air and space capabilities to achieve joint force
>objectives," Carlson said.
>
>Other wings are leaving 8th Air Force: 12th Air Force will gain the 27th
>Fighter Wing at Cannon AFB, N.M.; the 7th Bomb Wing at Dyess AFB, Texas; and
>the 27th Bomb Wing at Ellsworth AFB, S.D. Ninth Air Force will gain several
>of 8th Air Force's assigned Guard and Reserve units. This realignment will
>not require the relocation of any units or significant changes in manning
>levels.
>
>The changes are the result of the Air Force's goal to blend high-tech
>information systems with combat capability. Recent operations in Afghanistan
>have shown that new precision-guided munitions continue to improve the
>accuracy of 8th AF bombers and that UAVs, E-3 Airborne Warning And Control
>System aircraft, and E-8 Joint Surveillance, Target And Attack Radar System
>aircraft are closing the gap between identifying and targeting enemy forces.
>
>"On the battlefield, the guy with the most pertinent and up-to-date
>information wins," Carlson said. "Seeing the enemy before he sees us, and
>moving information faster, is what gives us the flexibility to respond to
>emerging hot spots around the world and to better protect our homeland."
>
>IO experts train to disrupt enemy communications and information systems --
>a "non-kinetic" attack -- in concert with aerospace power physically
>destroying enemy defenses -- the "kinetic" angle. They also protect U.S. and
>Department of Defense information systems.
>
>For the first phase of the information-operations integration in 2001, the
>Air Intelligence Agency realigned under Air Combat Command and the 67th
>Information Operations Wing at Lackland AFB, Texas, and the 70th
>Intelligence Wing at Fort Meade, Md., were assigned to 8th AF.
>SUBSCRIBE TO ACC NEWS SERVICE
>
>Air Combat Command Public Affairs, United States Air Force, ACC/PAI
>
>
>Erin S. Kingsley-Smith, 1Lt, USAF
>Deputy chief, 55th Wing Public Affairs
>Comm: (402) 294-7824
>Fax: (402) 294-7172
>DSN: 271-7824
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 05:49:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:49:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weighing in Message-ID: <006501c23396$adf63520$8ee0e13f@default> I feel that Mr Amram's question on "Collateral Damage" is way off target. If I recall, this is not a forum for political discussion. "and not too concerned about colateral damage.I'm sure Harry Truman cons sidered civilian causualties versus 100,000 G.I. deaths in house to house fighting and " Thanks Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 02:35:55 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:35:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I love Ground Crews Too. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020724203555.0093d150@ilhawaii.net> I,too, want to put in my vote of thanks to the ground crews. They were always there making sure we got off ok and waiting for us when we got back. They never complained, even when I had to pee in my ball turret on our first mission when there were enemy fighters around and I found the relief tube had been removed. Thet just told me about taking a fuse can when there was no relief tube. They were great!!! Jim Walling ball turret gunner From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 08:56:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:56:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weighing in References: <006501c23396$adf63520$8ee0e13f@default> Message-ID: <3D3FAF3E.1D3E4B03@attglobal.net> Hoyt ... Do not fall into the trap that speaking about collateral damage is somehow "political" .... That is the way people corral free speech. It was WAR! Collateral damage is a FACT OF WAR. On ALL sides! While I believe the question is quite moot and does not matter WHAT the hell we thought when we dropped those loads on the ENEMY .... it never the less was WAR! But not to many people today are reasonably versed in that type of discussion. We haven't won one in so long .... Cheers! WCH Bill Hoyt wrote: > I feel that Mr Amram's question on "Collateral Damage" is way off target. If > I recall, this is not a forum for political discussion. > > "and not too concerned about colateral damage.I'm sure Harry Truman cons > sidered > civilian causualties versus 100,000 G.I. deaths in house to house fighting > and " > > Thanks Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 17:03:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:03:08 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weighing in References: <006501c23396$adf63520$8ee0e13f@default> <3D3FAF3E.1D3E4B03@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <003301c233f4$db671d40$6e24fd3e@theresa> I run the risk of Bill Hoyt getting upset, over what he perceives to be a political point, but I respect Bill's right to think this way. However, I hope, Bill, you will not object to my stating my thoughts on the subject, being those of a then English child, who was on the receiving-end of the German's bombs. My uncle, aunt and two contemporary cousins were killed in the air-raids. My father, a civilian fire-fighter, was 80% disabled as a result of injuries sustained during the bombings. Our house was rendered uninhabitable, as a result of bombing which left my mother and two sisters hospitalised for many months, leaving me (4 years old) to be sent to stay with another aunt, till the family could be reunited. I doubt if many German aircrew gave any thought to the consequences of their actions, any more than the American and RAF aircrews could afford to do, when they bombed Germany. As Bill Heller has so rightly stated, " it was war". Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 25 17:18:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:18:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #654 - 8 msgs Message-ID: <14e.115ea0be.2a717ee8@aol.com> --part1_14e.115ea0be.2a717ee8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I add my thanks and blessings to our ground crew. I did not know them. I flew on the John Scott crew 360th Sqd. I was the toggelier. I never once worried about our ship not performing as it should. Never had a malfunction in 19 missions. GOD bless these men and my hart felt thanks to them. Bob Morris --part1_14e.115ea0be.2a717ee8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I add my thanks and blessings to our ground crew.  I did not know them. I flew on the John Scott crew 360th Sqd. I was the toggelier. I never once worried about our ship not performing as it should. Never had a malfunction in 19 missions.  GOD bless these men and my hart felt thanks to them.
Bob Morris --part1_14e.115ea0be.2a717ee8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 26 23:07:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:07:48 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #655 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <3D4165C4.8587.1D6B7FB@localhost> This message from Jack Amram was deleted in error. Here it is in its entirety. - Sorry, Jack ----- Gary ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: AmramSr@aol.com Bill,To say that Joe Blow is a stupid Senator is an opinion and has no place in this forum. Politics is the art and science of influencing and controlling a government. Government,war,and politics are inseparable. Bill Heller is right.There is no conotation of politics in the term"collateral damage".Collateral damage is unplanned but probable and acceptable secondary damage. It's a descriptive term,nothing more. If you'd prefer "civilian causualties"to the euphemism "collateral damage", fine. The factory workers at the ball bearing plants in Schweinfort who were killed or wounded in our bombing were civilians or slaves.We weren't after them.We wanted to cripple ball bearing production and they happened to be there.Collateral damage. Jack Amram ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jul 27 00:58:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:58:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ground Crews Message-ID: <8f.1f93c95d.2a733c16@aol.com> --part1_8f.1f93c95d.2a733c16_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Folks, I was an airplane mechanic in the Navy. It matters not which branch of the service, nor which war, nor even if wartime or peacetime. We mechanics are devoted to our pilots and aircrew. They are our brothers. That is the military bond, which has no equal in the civilian world. We also love the aircraft we are assigned to work on. All of them, not just one. I spent countless hours after getting off work, just standing by the hanger and watching the planes takeoff, land and taxi. I wasn't the only one either. Take care all.................................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_8f.1f93c95d.2a733c16_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Folks,

I was an airplane mechanic in the Navy. It matters not which branch of the service, nor which war, nor even if wartime or peacetime. We mechanics are devoted to our pilots and aircrew. They are our brothers. That is the military bond, which has no equal in the civilian world. We also love the aircraft we are assigned to work on. All of them, not just one. I spent countless hours after getting off work, just standing by the hanger and watching the planes takeoff, land and taxi. I wasn't the only one either.

Take care all.................................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_8f.1f93c95d.2a733c16_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 30 15:15:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:15:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Bombardier website Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032B9F4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> List, For over a year now I have been working on a project researching the men who graduated with my uncle from the bombardier class of Kirtland 42-13. This lead me to develop an interest in bombardiers and to build a website dedicated to the project and bombardiers. The first phase of the site is ready and can be seen at: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~hfhm/Frames/index.htm. You will find the progress of my research to date plus information on bombardiering in general, such as, development and history, training, aircraft flown, equipment used and other miscellaneous data. The next phase will involve the building of a database of all 53,000+ men who graduated as bombardiers in WWII. I invite you to take a look and to give feedback (both good and bad). If you can provide information of any kind, I would be grateful. I can be contacted through an address in the Contacts Us section on the navigation bar. Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 30 16:42:40 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:42:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 59 yeas ago today - Were you there ? Message-ID: <3D465180.12411.D46823@localhost> Friends, This idea was suggested to me some time ago. Though I won't do it daily, I will do it from time to time. Below part of the mission write-up from the 2nd Edition of the CD "The Molesworth Story." Does anyone here remember that mission? ---------------------- 303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 56 30 July 1943 Target: Fiesler Aircraft Works, Uschlag, Germany Crews Dispatched: 23 Crews Lost: 10 crewmen ditched, S/Sgt. Humphries killed Length of Mission: 5 hours, 45 minutes Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb H.E. M43/ 2 a/c dropped 250 lb incendiary Bombing Altitude: 25,720 ft Ammo Fired: 78,885 rounds Enemy Aircraft Claims: 10 Destroyed, 4 Probable, 1 Damaged The Focke-Wolf airplane assembly and engine works at Kassel was the sixth and final "Blitz Week" target. The lead pilot, Lt. Timken was on his 22nd mission. The round trip distance was over 1,000 miles. Twenty-three B-17s took off. Four planes aborted the mission inside the Belgium coast: #42-5257 Miss Bea Haven 358BS (Brown) and #42-29635 Augerhead 358BS (Thompson); Aborted due to erratic supercharger regulators. #42-3131 Flak Wolf 427BS (Rolfson); The Nos. 1 and 4 engines ran rough at altitude. #42-5788 A.O.G. Not in Stock (Johnston); The ball turret door came open and blew off. The Fortresses flew through fair weather to make an excellent bombing run at 25,000 feet. They dropped 42 1/2 tons of 500-lb. M-43 and 250- lb. British incendiary bombs of destruction well on the target. They were accompanied by German single-engine fighters, mostly ME-109s, for over an hour. About 130-200 fighters were seen in 17 encounters. The fighters hit the 303rd BG(H) as they crossed the coast into Germany, stayed with them over the target and followed them back out over the North Sea. Some of them bombed the formation, but most made direct attacks in bunches. They didn't attempt to press their attacks as they had in the past. Four fighters were claimed as destroyed, with two probables and eight damaged. Intense, but inaccurate barrage-type flak was observed. Lt. Timken summed up the mission: "The weather was only fair. We hit some flak, but it didn't bother us too much. However, there were plenty of fighters and they stayed with us for over an hour. They escorted us right back to the coast. We had a good bomb run with only slight evasive action. I think that our bombing was fairly good, but I'm not sure." Lt. Col. Stevens, mimicking what the British might say, commented, "Mighty good show. Plenty of fighters, but we did all right." The tail gunner on Sky Wolf, 2Lt. William B. Harper added, "It was a damn good target. At times there were up to 400 fighters out there. Most of them hit us on the way back. I got my first enemy fighter, an ME-109. He went down in flames at about 5,000 feet and the pilot bailed out. Some flak hit our ship and it sounded like skeletons on a tin roof." S/Sgt. George R. Redhead, riding on his 21st mission said, "It was a little rough. There were no attacks on our ship, but there were enough planes out there to scare hell out of us." As one of the 303rd BG(H) B-17s approached the field, it was observed that only two engines were operating, both on the same side. The plane was losing altitude fast, but the pilot managed to give it enough power, keep it level, bring it in and made one of the most beautiful landings ever seen at Molesworth. The ship was The '8' Ball MK II, piloted by Lt. James Nix. He commented, "Never saw so many fighters. Boy! They were really coming at us. They had a field day today. There must have been plenty shot down. I saw three of them myself. We were really sweating out our engines. It feels good to be down safely." As The '8' Ball MK II hit the runway after being literally greased in, it taxied by and a head stuck out the waist gun window and hollered, "Pretty good, ain't he? That's our pilot." There were several mission casualties. T/Sgt. F.G. Krajacic, top turret gunner on #42-29754 Shangrila Lil, had a shrapnel wound on the middle finger of his left hand; S/Sgt. W.G. Hover, tail gunner on #42-29955 Mr. Five by Five, suffered a broken leg; T/Sgt. L.E. Ratliff, radio operator and Sgt. A.J. Tambe, ball turret gunner, had sprained ankles; and waist gunner S/Sgt. A.J. Burns had a back injury sustained when they bailed out of their damaged aircraft over England. The pilot, Lt. G.W. Shope landed Mr. Five by Five at Leiston and returned to Base in another aircraft. -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 30 17:05:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:05:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Bombardier website In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032B9F4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <3D4656BF.14901.E8E6FE@localhost> > For over a year now I have been working on a project researching > the men who graduated with my uncle from the bombardier class of > Kirtland 42-13. This lead me to develop an interest in > bombardiers and to build a website dedicated to the project and > bombardiers. The first phase of the site is ready and can be > seen at: > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~hfhm/Frames/index.htm. > Dave, That is quite a project! It looks like you're off to a great start. I'll be pleased to add a link on 303rdBGA.com to your website. -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 30 18:07:42 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:07:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 59 yeas ago today - Were you there ? In-Reply-To: <3D465180.12411.D46823@localhost> Message-ID: <3D468F9E.25503.142939E@localhost> > Friends, > This idea was suggested to me some time ago. Though I won't do > it daily, I will do it from time to time. Below part of the > mission write-up from the 2nd Edition of the CD "The Molesworth > Story." ........ Nice idea, Gary. Just to add a bit to it, I snapped an image from the 360thBS microfilm, which is one of the pages where they describe that mission from the 360th view. It includes an interesting description of the ditching of one of the planes in the channel, indicating that the plane sunk in 2.5 minutes, and they were picked up in 35 minutes, both times seemed quite short to me. Interesting. I put the image at: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/7-30-43nar.jpg Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 31 13:26:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:26:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Bombardier website In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032B9F4@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: I don't think that Col. Ned Humphreys, former head of Bombardiers,Inc., ever delegated authority/responsibility/creativity to anyone....I could be dead wrong, but the organization seemed to outgrew his human capabilities really a shame. He deserves every credit for having brought the organization so far in so many years. Carrying it further will demand equal dedication, without a doubt. I am interested in membership...graduated from Carlsbad 44-8 on 10 June 1944, reptd duty w/ 303rd B.G.(H) 360th Sqdn., Molesworth. 35 missions with Fink's Crew. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand > >