Can a= nyone help me sort this out, both on colors and significance? Thank= s.

Brian O'Neill

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A069.2CB5B280-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 04:12:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:12:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <102.f257cc9.297a4c1a@aol.com> Kevin: Thanks for the info Electronic Guidance. Seeing the maps used for navigation would make it easier to understand how the eletronic information was utilized. LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 04:25:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:25:29 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: ARMING BOMBS Message-ID: <178.25668b2.297a4f39@aol.com> true . i had to pull pins. did once retie them. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 04:51:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:51:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Kevin Pearson Bomb Release Picture Message-ID: <00ac01c1a0a4$e58899e0$bfd60b3f@default> Great info on GEE and OBOE Kevin , thanks. Concerning the bomb release picture though, I wasnt expecting an "exploded view". Isnt there a piece missing? On a serious note, thanks to all of you!! Bill Hoyt PS Anybody have any information (current) on Jacob Fredericks or any of his crew (Kellogs Kids) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 15:32:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:32:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay and bomb shackles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/17/02 11:18 PM, IBSPEC@aol.com at IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > LLOYD , I HAD ,AS TOGGLIER, 500 LB. BOMBS HUNG UP AT 3100 FT. I LEFT NOSE > WITH PORTABLE OXYGEN TANK HOOKED ON UNHOOKED CHEST PACK. MANUEVERED BETWEEN > ENGINEERS GUN BASE AS HE FIRED AWAY. THEN WITH THE HEAVY BOOTS AND CLOTHING > AND PARACHUTES SEAT AND ONE HANGER CHEST PACK AND OXGEN TANK ,STADDLED THE > BOMB BAY OPENING WITH ONE FOOT ON EXTERIOR FRAME OF BOMB BAY DOOR AND OTHER > ON RAIL BETWEEN DOORS. THEN WITH HEAVY GLOVES LITERALLY HAD TO SHOVE,PULL > ,TWIST, TURN ANDE KICK TWO OUT OF BOMBBAY. I WAS EXHAUSTED AND HAD TO GET > SPARE OXYGEN TANK FROM RADIO OPERATOR TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO NOSE > POSITION. ONLY TIME I HAD SUCH CONDITION ,BUT HEARD OTHERS SAY THEY HAD > EXPERIENCED. SPEC > Lloyd, what you describe there cannot be interpreted in any other way but "extraordinary duty over and above' and worthy of commendation. At least I hope so! Cheers and belated thanks, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 18:41:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 18:41:20 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms Message-ID: <20020119184121.XLSG28721.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Allow me to try one more time to answer your question. If this attempt remains as clear as mud I will understand. B-17 bomb racks in the bomb bay have 42 stations which accommodate space requirements of the various bomb sizes. Example: 12 500lb bombs would be loaded at stations 2, 7, 10, 11, 18, 21, 23, 28, 31, 32, 39, and 42. Using the same example, 12 shackles and A-4 bomb release units would be required. Th B-7 shackle will accommodate up to 1100 pounds and are attached to the bomb rack at the specified stations. Bomb release units are also required at the same stations. The A-4 bomb release units ate controlled from the bombsight or bombardiers panel through a 24 volt electrical system. The two shackle arms interface with the two bomb release unit arms giving control of both to the release unit. When the increments on the bombsight come together, an electrical impulse is dispatched to the release unit unlocking the bomb holding hooks on the schackel allowing the bomb to fall free of the aircraft. The armature wires are anchored to the shackel and pull out of the nose and tail fuse starting the rotation of the fuse propellers which spin off arming the bomb. Hope this will help......Bill Runnels, bombardier > Thanks to everyone who responded to this question. Unfortunately, I still > do not understand how the system worked. > > Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 20:05:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:05:54 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Brian- Medals Message-ID: --part1_f3.14eb9a57.297b2ba2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, The Air Medal (AM) was I think the most common. In the 15th AF out of Italy, it was awarded, for the most part, to crewmen after every five missions. It appears that five easy missions didn't always rate an AM. In that case maybe it took seven or ten missions. And if there were two or three really bad ones in a row, it was sometimes awarded for those two or three. I don't know what the criteria for the 8th AF was. The Silver Star (SS) was awarded for "Gallantry in Action." It is a very prestigious medal. Usually awarded for outstanding conduct, not quite heroic enough for the Medal of Honor. One had to do something really heroic and special to be awarded the SS. The Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) was awarded for "Extraordinary Achievement." Usually conduct not quite "heroic" enough to warrant the SS. There were many others- The Bronze Star, The Soldier's Medal, etc. There was also the Distinguished Unit Citation, which was awarded to an entire command, i.e., bomb group rather than an individual. For the most part, medals awarded were truly earned. There were a few instances where career officers were awarded medals because of their "connections" rather than their doing anything special. I think this was however rare. Jimmy Doolittle was awarded the Medal of Honor (MOH) for leading the Tokyo raid in 1942. Some don't believe he truly warranted the medal. This is legitimately debatable. Doolittle was a great pilot and brave for sure. In 1942 America needed heroes. The Japs and Jerries were giving us a beating. We were still trying to "gear up" for the fight. Heck, all those men who flew were brave beyond comprehension. The Germans owned the skies over Europe in 1943 and into 1944. It was a sure thing that the American bombers were going to get the heck shot out of them every time they flew. And yet these men continued day after day to keep on flying. Even in late 1944 and early 1945, the German fighters gathered as they were able to. They couldn't by this time attack all groups. But they chose individual groups and really peppered them. The bomber crewmen are all heroes, no matter what medals they did and didn't get. And almost to the man, these vets will tell you they didn't do anything special to deserve any medals. They just say they were doing their jobs. They are very humble people. If you have more questions, please ask. FYI: I am a veteran, but not a WW 2 veteran. Take care.................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_f3.14eb9a57.297b2ba2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian,

The Air Medal (AM) was I think the most common. In the 15th AF out of Italy, it was awarded, for the most part, to crewmen after every five missions. It appears that five easy missions didn't always rate an AM. In that case maybe it took seven or ten missions. And if there were two or three really bad ones in a row, it was sometimes awarded for those two or three. I don't know what the criteria for the 8th AF was. The Silver Star (SS) was awarded for "Gallantry in Action." It is a very prestigious medal. Usually awarded for outstanding conduct, not quite heroic enough for the Medal of Honor. One had to do something really heroic and special to be awarded the SS. The Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) was awarded for "Extraordinary Achievement." Usually conduct not quite "heroic" enough to warrant the SS. There were many others- The Bronze Star, The Soldier's Medal, etc. There was also the Distinguished Unit Citation, which was awarded to an entire command, i.e., bomb group rather than an individual.

For the most part, medals awarded were truly earned. There were a few instances where career officers were awarded medals because of their "connections" rather than their doing anything special. I think this was however rare. Jimmy Doolittle was awarded the Medal of Honor (MOH) for leading the Tokyo raid in 1942. Some don't believe he truly warranted the medal. This is legitimately debatable. Doolittle was a great pilot and brave for sure. In 1942 America needed heroes. The Japs and Jerries were giving us a beating. We were still trying to "gear up" for the fight. Heck, all those men who flew were brave beyond comprehension. The Germans owned the skies over Europe in 1943 and into 1944. It was a sure thing that the American bombers were going to get the heck shot out of them every time they flew. And yet these men continued day after day to keep on flying. Even in late 1944 and early 1945, the German fighters gathered as they were able to. They couldn't by this time attack all groups. But they chose individual groups and really peppered them. The bomber crewmen are all heroes, no matter what medals they did and didn't get. And almost to the man, these vets will tell you they didn't do anything special to deserve any medals. They just say they were doing their jobs. They are very humble people. If you have more questions, please ask. FYI: I am a veteran, but not a WW 2 veteran. Take care.................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_f3.14eb9a57.297b2ba2_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 19 20:16:06 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:16:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin- APU? Message-ID: <60.19b6b3d7.297b2e06@aol.com> --part1_60.19b6b3d7.297b2e06_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin, I am an airplane mechanic. Perhaps the contraption was a vacuum pump for leak checking the static system. The static system is a series of air tubes (plumbing) which makes it possible for the altimeters, air speed indicators, etc., to work. Whenever the static system is worked on it has to be leak checked. This is done with a vacuum pump. That's my two cents. Anyone else have any ideas?...........Ford J. Lauer III --part1_60.19b6b3d7.297b2e06_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin, I am an airplane mechanic. Perhaps the contraption was a vacuum pump for leak checking the static system. The static system is a series of air tubes (plumbing) which makes it possible for the altimeters, air speed indicators, etc., to work. Whenever the static system is worked on it has to be leak checked. This is done with a vacuum pump. That's my two cents. Anyone else have any ideas?...........Ford J. Lauer III --part1_60.19b6b3d7.297b2e06_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 00:28:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:28:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms In-Reply-To: <20020119184121.XLSG28721.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Bill, thank you. This helps a great deal. I am lucky as I live very close to Fantasy of Flight and they have a B-17 on display. When I can physically see the shackles and the mechanisms that operated them, I will be better able to understand how they work. I appreciate your tolerance and patience. ( and this goes for all of you who have responded.) With respect, Lloyd. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of b.runnels@att.net Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 1:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms Allow me to try one more time to answer your question. If this attempt remains as clear as mud I will understand. B-17 bomb racks in the bomb bay have 42 stations which accommodate space requirements of the various bomb sizes. Example: 12 500lb bombs would be loaded at stations 2, 7, 10, 11, 18, 21, 23, 28, 31, 32, 39, and 42. Using the same example, 12 shackles and A-4 bomb release units would be required. Th B-7 shackle will accommodate up to 1100 pounds and are attached to the bomb rack at the specified stations. Bomb release units are also required at the same stations. The A-4 bomb release units ate controlled from the bombsight or bombardiers panel through a 24 volt electrical system. The two shackle arms interface with the two bomb release unit arms giving control of both to the release unit. When the increments on the bombsight come together, an electrical impulse is dispatched to the release unit unlocking the bomb holding hooks on the schackel allowing the bomb to fall free of the aircraft. The armature wires are anchored to the shackel and pull out of the nose and tail fuse starting the rotation of the fuse propellers which spin off arming the bomb. Hope this will help......Bill Runnels, bombardier > Thanks to everyone who responded to this question. Unfortunately, I still > do not understand how the system worked. > > Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 01:52:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian D. O'Neill) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:52:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mean?! In-Reply-To: <20020119170238.301F753DED@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the responses to this question. I recently learned about the significance of the bomb mission markings on "Memphis Belle" from an old B-17F "Profile" I was able to review. It was written by Roger Freeman. It's not appropriate to draw comparisons from that to the 303rd, as you all recognize. We'll just have to wait and see if a ground crewman can tell us. I spoke with Harry Gobrecht, and he has no idea after all this time. Thanks again, all, for your responses. Anybody know, who might know? Brian O'Neill -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 12:03 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #484 - 6 msgs Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com You can reach the person managing the list at 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mean?! (Kevin Pearson) 2. Re: Bomb bay and bomb shackles (Kevin Pearson) 3. Metals (Brian Pearson) 4. Bomb loading and release mechanisms (Lloyd J H Grant) 5. Re: Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mean?! (VONDRA BURRELL) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kevin Pearson" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mean?! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:41:55 -0600 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Brian: I know in other Bomb Groups there were differnt colored bombs if a ship flew lead or deputy lead. Same thing with the stars above the bombs. I'm sure on of the other fellows with know or Harry. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Kevin Pearson" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay and bomb shackles Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:45:00 -0600 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I'm sorry, Bill, I still don't understand. I guess I will have to locate a schematic to truly understand. Thanks for the input! Kevin >From: b.runnels@att.net >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay and bomb shackles >Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:07:29 +0000 > >Kevin, you have an "A-4 bomb release" unit. The arms on >the bomb shackle fit into the arms on the release unit. >The shackle supported the weight of the bomb, not the >release unit. The electrical impulse from the bombsight >terminated at the release unit moving the arms to unlock >the shackle caring kooks allowing the weight of the bomb >to open the hooks and fall away. Hope this info is >helpful.....Bill Runnels, bombardier > > Good question, Lloyd. I have a bomb release given to me by Quentin >Bland, > > the unofficial keeper of the 384th BG base at Grafton Underwood. What I > > have is a square little box about six inches long, four inches high and > > about one to two inches thick. Out of the upper left hand corner and >upper > > right hand corner are two "arms" that stick out of the box that are >about an > > inch wide. I'm sending a pic to Gary to post on the website. I've >never > > been able to figure out how this little contraption held a 1,000-pound, >M44 > > General Purpose Demolition Bomb, just doesn't appear to be that strong. >The > > box I have has printed on it "Bomb Release," so I am quite sure it has > > something to do with releasing the bomb load. According to Quentin >Bland, > > this bomb release came from a Fort that exploded in 1944 while bombing >up > > for a mission. Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: "303rd BGA Talk Forum" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay and bomb shackles > > >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:57:13 -0500 > > > > > >How did the bomb shackles work , from the loading to the release point? > If > > >a bomb �hung� and had to be released manually, what was the procedure? > > >And > > >how many of the crew were trained to accomplish this feat? > > > > > >Thank you. > > > > > >Lloyd. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Brian Pearson" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:07:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Metals Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I was just curious as to what the highest metals any of the verterans on this talk group have received. As a 16 year old, I dont know a lot about them, so if you reply, please explain what the metal is...Im very curious. Thanks a lot. Brian _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lloyd J H Grant" To: "303rd-talk Hells Angels" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:37:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A068.5F052460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who responded to this question. Unfortunately, I still do not understand how the system worked. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A068.5F052460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks to everyone who = responded to this question. = Unfortunately, I still do not understand how the system = worked.

Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A068.5F052460-- --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "VONDRA BURRELL" To: "Bomb Group" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mean?! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:43:32 -0600 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A069.2CB5B280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know for sure how it was in the 303rd, but in the 91st the yellow= star above the mission bomb meant your aircraft led the squadron, and th= e red meant you led the group. This is according to Robert Morgan, but w= ho knows if he knows what he's talking about. He also thought he was the = first to complete 25 missions. Lance Burrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian D. O'Neill Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 2:38 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the = Colors and Symbols Mean?! Hi Everybody, it's Brian O'Neill. I just finished a great visit with Har= ry Gobrecht gathering, among other things, nose art photos for the new Os= prey "Aviation Elite" illustrated history book I'm doing on the 303rd. T= he book's going to have 40 color profiles of 303rd aircraft, the great ma= jority of which have never appeared before. But I'm going crazy trying t= o figure out what the different colors and symbols on the bomb mission ta= llies mean. On a lot of aircraft it looks like there's a different colore= d bomb, and maybe a little star symbol on or below it, for every 5th miss= ion, so you can quickly count the totals. Look at the nose art for YARDB= IRD II and the DUCHESS on the web page as examples. But what are the col= ors, yellow and red (?) and what do the little stars mean? Other aircraf= t like SKY WOLF and S FOR SUGAR clearly have a single different colored b= omb(s) that stand out, presumably for a major mission. =20 Can anyone help me sort this out, both on colors and significance? Thank= s. =20 Brian O'Neill ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A069.2CB5B280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't know f= or sure how it was in the 303rd, but in the 91st the yellow star above th= e mission bomb meant your aircraft led the squadron, and the red meant yo= u led the group. This is according to Robert Morgan, but who knows = if he knows what he's talking about. He also thought he was the first to = complete 25 missions. Lance Burrell

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian D. O'Neill

Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 2:= 38 PM

To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBG= A.com

Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Colors and Symbols Mea= n?!

Hi Eve= rybody, it's Brian O'Neill. I just finished a great visit with Harr= y Gobrecht gathering, among other things, nose art photos for the new Osp= rey "Aviation Elite" illustrated history book I'm doing on the 303rd.&nbs= p; The book's going to have 40 color profiles of 303rd aircraft, the grea= t majority of which have never appeared before. But I'm going crazy= trying to figure out what the different colors and symbols on the b= omb mission tallies mean. On a lot of aircraft it looks like there's= a different colored bomb, and maybe a little star symbol on or below it,= for every 5th mission, so you can quickly count the totals. L= ook at the nose art for YARDBIRD II and the DUCHESS on the web page as ex= amples. But what are the colors, yellow and red (?) and w= hat do the little stars mean? Other aircraft like SKY WOLF and S FO= R SUGAR clearly have a single different colored bomb(s) that stand o= ut, presumably for a major mission.

Can a= nyone help me sort this out, both on colors and significance? Thank= s.

Brian O'Neill

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A069.2CB5B280-- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 02:31:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:31:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Bomb Mission Tallies on Group B-17s -- What do the Color... Message-ID: <7f.203c27fe.297b85f8@aol.com> i read yesterday that author of memphis belle has another book. he lives in va. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 05:48:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian Pearson) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:48:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ford- Medals Message-ID: Ford, Thanks a lot for the metals info. I found it quite intersting. When and where did you serve? Brian Pearson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 11:36:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (meurs.john) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:36:10 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission of November 26, 1944. Message-ID: <01c1a1a6$a86c56c0$9758ca3e@meurs> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1A1AF.0A30BEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Reader, Some of you already know that I am presently researching the November = 26, 1944 mission of the 303rd BG I've learned that Lt. Col. Harry Gobrecht wrote an excellent book called = "Might in Flight". I also learned that pages 587 to 589 deal with this = mission. I could of course order this book but I'm a not so rich pensioner and = I'm mostly interested in these three pages. I would be very grateful if = one of you could scan these pages for me. I will of course clearly = mention the source whenever my research would be published. Thanks in = advance fro your kind cooperation in this matter. Warm regards John Meurs Im Gubel 5 CH-8630 Rueti ZH Switzerland e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1A1AF.0A30BEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear = Reader,

Some of you already = know that I=20 am presently researching the November 26, 1944 mission of the 303rd=20 BG

I've learned that = Lt. Col. Harry=20 Gobrecht wrote an excellent book called "Might in Flight". I = also=20 learned that pages 587 to 589 deal with this mission.

I could of course = order this=20 book but I'm a not so rich pensioner and I'm mostly interested in these = three=20 pages. I would be very grateful if one of you could scan these pages for = me. I=20 will of course clearly mention the source whenever my research would be=20 published. Thanks in advance fro your kind cooperation in this=20 matter.

Warm = regards

John Meurs

Im Gubel 5

CH-8630 Rueti ZH

Switzerland &= nbsp; =20 e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1A1AF.0A30BEC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 20 20:56:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:56:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hung Bombs Message-ID: <001701c1a1f4$fccefbc0$52bcf5cd@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1A1C2.B195DAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, too, had to hook on a "walk around" oxygen bottle and enter bomb bay = to screw driver two hung bombs. The Bombardier told me that I hit a shack with one of them. Still over = Germany. I think RO's were mostly clued in on that job, if needed. I usually had one eye on the bomb bay, one eye on the K-28 camera well = and another eye on the telegraph key. { : ).. Fory Barton, RO ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1A1C2.B195DAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I, too, had to hook on a "walk around" = oxygen=20 bottle and enter bomb bay to screw driver two hung bombs.

The Bombardier told me that I hit a = shack with=20 one of them. Still over Germany.

I think RO's were mostly clued in on = that job,=20 if needed.

I usually had one eye on the bomb bay, = one eye=20 on the K-28 camera well and another eye on the telegraph key. { :=20 )..

Fory Barton, = RO

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1A1C2.B195DAC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 00:11:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:11:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ford- Medals//and more medals Message-ID: <6c.1616ce69.297cb6cf@aol.com> I served with 303rd /359th from Late Nov. 1944 th the last mission flown in April 1945. I finished 30 missions and flew 2 extra to wait for my pilot to finish so we could return to the zone of interior (USA) together. For this period of time I have the World War II medal, European Theater of Operations medal with 3 stars, the American Campaign medal, the Air Medal wi9th 4 Oak leaf clusters (I think one cluster represented 7 missions, I guess I got an extra one for volunteering to fly the extra missions) and the DFC, recommendation was made to the Squadron command by several of the pilots I flew with flying the lead which resulted in some excellent bomb strikes on the target and about 4 missions of having to return alone out of formation because of plane damage from flak, midair collision and other unusual circumstances. Hope this adds to your information that you are collecting. Leroy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 06:48:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:48:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] November 26,1944 Mission-re:John Meurs letter Message-ID: <48.53d9d22.297d13a4@aol.com> Dear John: In my book, DIARY : 35, which I self-published in 1998, I have this entry regarding the mission on November 26, 1944, to Osnabruck, Germany: Our Crew's 14th Mission - 303rd Group Mission #277 "We bombed our secondary target, the marshalling yards at Osnabruck. A little after we hit the Dutch coast in, enemy fighters came at aus. We had 300 P-51's and P-47's as escorts and luckily they were there to challenge the ME-109s and FW-109s. There were dog fights where ever we looked and after bombs away, a B-17 came up on our right with the right wing burning. It was a 358th Ship N-Nan and I saw two men bail out and their chutes opened at 15,000 feeet. Gasper Pizzaloto from our barracks on Lt. Fielder's crew was flying waist gunner with that crew piloted by Lt. Jameson. We learned later that the entire crew became prisoners of war, so they all made it out of the doomed plane. Our bomb run was visual and we really placed them on target. We carried "nickles" leaflets and the other planes carried 6 - 1000 lb ME's and bombed from 20,000 feet. The German fighters along with the flak, which was both barrage and tracking, accurate and intense, made for a hectic mission. Like ramming your head against a stone wall. We had three holes through the right wing, in the tail and near the ball turret. Mission length: 6 hours, 20 minutes." I hope this personal experience on this mission will add to your mission research. Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17 #44-8427 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 07:10:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:10:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Message-ID: <55.213ba184.297d18fd@aol.com> On our 5th mission to Brunswick, Germany, on October 22, 1944, one of our 500 Lb. bombs hung up in the bomb bay. The front of the bomb was free from the shackle and the arming wire had pulled free. The bomb was hanging at an angle on only the rear hook of the shackle. When I opened the radio room door to the bomb bay I noticed the bomb and called the bombardier to salvo, but it would not fall free. I then went into the bomb bay wearing my chest pack parachute and carrying a walk around oxygen bottle, I sat on the cat walk, twisted my legs into the cross brases of the cat walk and then hanging onto the bomb bay upright supports with my left arm, I signaled the waist gunner to have the bombardier open the bomb bay. I swung at the rear shackle hook with the walk around bottle, four times, when it finally fell free. For a brief moment I looked down to see the clouds flying by and then became terrifyingly aware that the enemy was 28,000 feet below me! I then dragged my self back into the radio room, very much relieved and uttered a prayer of thanks to God. We did not have anyone specifically trained to release a hung up bomb, I just did what I thought I should do at the time to save our plane and our crew. Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17G #44-8427 Gmernicki Crew 358th Squadron. (This is an excerpt from my book DIARY: 35) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 18:22:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:22:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Metals Message-ID: Brian: Oh, my wayward son. I know I said to ask any question you wanted but the one about medals (not metals) may be a bit charged. This poem will explain it better than I ever could: Don't envy a man his medals All those ribbons on his chest He did not try to get them They're not there at his request They were earned in stinking hell holes Where no man would like to go Or in cold and wintry places Where there's only ice and snow He did not know he earned them Till they were awarded at parade And they were bright when he first got them But in time the colors fade He was told he had to wear them And to wear them all with pride But when the memories come to haunt him Those same medals make him hide Cause those medals will not bring back All those guys he left behind And he would trade them all forever For a little peace of mind So don't envy a man his medals You don't want to take his place Thinking back to long gone battles And meeting dead friends face to face Many of the guys on this forum are too modest and humble to discuss their medals. Most accepted their medals, but only on behalf of their friends who died. So be careful with this - it is one of those touchy subjects. Big K _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 18:31:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:31:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb Release Picture Message-ID: My apologies, guys, I was in such a hurry Friday afternoon, I neglected to explain that picture of the bomb release more. Most of the debris in the picture was found at the Marzhauzen, Germany crash site of 2LT John V. Dunlap's Boston Bombshell, 42-39996, 322nd BS, 91st BG, lost 16.8.44 to fighters from IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 enroute to Halle Germany. The bomb release and the little round object, the brass end of a Very round found at the end of the long runway at Grafton Underwood, were given to me by Quentin Bland. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 18:37:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:37:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Leroy: I do not have any of the color coded Gee maps. Maybe one of the men on this forum might have one and could scan it for us. How about it guys? I have seen these maps at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford and at Churchill's underground bunker near #10 Downing Street. Not sure why it was there, but it was on a desk laid out for all to see. Kevin >From: RoyAudry651@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) >Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:12:10 EST > >Kevin: Thanks for the info Electronic Guidance. Seeing the maps used for >navigation would make it easier to understand how the eletronic information >was utilized. >LeRoy Christenson > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 18:39:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:39:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin- APU? Message-ID: Ford: That is a very good guess and it is plugged into about where the pitot tube would have been. I need to look at this pic again. I will try to bring the book in tomorrow and have thatic scanned for all to see. >From: Fordlauer@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin- APU? >Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:16:06 EST > >Kevin, I am an airplane mechanic. Perhaps the contraption was a vacuum >pump >for leak checking the static system. The static system is a series of air >tubes (plumbing) which makes it possible for the altimeters, air speed >indicators, etc., to work. Whenever the static system is worked on it has >to >be leak checked. This is done with a vacuum pump. That's my two cents. >Anyone >else have any ideas?...........Ford J. Lauer III _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 18:54:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:54:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Message-ID: Hi Ray: I have not seen much either in writing or on the web about the duties of a radio operator. Can you tell me and all of us, what you did at briefing, and a little about radio procedure used in the air. You ROs also fired off the pyrotechnics (flares), right, and where in charge of taking pics with the strike camera if so equipped, right? It must have been more frightening in the radio room than anywhere else, because you couldn't see out, except through the dorsal window and one on the side of the a/c. Did you only use Morse with the squadron, group and base, or did you also have voice? Please don't get angry, but did you ever put on AFN radio either going to or returning from the Continent like portrayed in Memphis Belle? I've been in a radio room of a Fort and have seen the equipment. It's amazing that today all of that stuff would fit in na transistor radio! Seriously, please tell us all about your duties and how you accomplished them. Thanks! Kevin >From: B17GSparks@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:10:53 EST > >On our 5th mission to Brunswick, Germany, on October 22, 1944, one of our >500 >Lb. >bombs hung up in the bomb bay. The front of the bomb was free from the >shackle and the arming wire had pulled free. The bomb was hanging at an >angle on only the rear hook of the shackle. When I opened the radio room >door to the bomb bay I noticed the bomb and called the bombardier to salvo, >but it would not fall free. I then went into the bomb bay wearing my chest >pack parachute and carrying a walk around oxygen bottle, I sat on the cat >walk, twisted my legs into the cross brases of the cat walk and then >hanging >onto the bomb bay upright supports with my left arm, I signaled the waist >gunner to have the bombardier open the bomb bay. I swung at the rear >shackle >hook with the walk around bottle, four times, when it finally fell free. >For > a brief moment I looked down to see the clouds flying by and then became >terrifyingly aware that the enemy was 28,000 feet below me! I then dragged >my self back into the radio room, very much relieved and uttered a prayer >of >thanks to God. >We did not have anyone specifically trained to release a hung up bomb, I >just >did what I thought I should do at the time to save our plane and our crew. >Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17G #44-8427 Gmernicki >Crew 358th Squadron. (This is an excerpt from my book DIARY: 35) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 22:23:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Patrick Egan) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:23:30 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd be interested in the duties of the RO too. My Dad Don Reid was Radio Operator in the 305th but I dont have much more info than that so far. Here's an interesting picture of a Bomb getting kicked out. Must be at low altitude however cause he's not wearing O2 http://www.egan.org/b17/kick-out-bombay.jpg ___________________________ Patrick Egan Catalyst Systems Ph: 805-696-6844 Email: patrick@egan.org -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:54 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Hi Ray: I have not seen much either in writing or on the web about the duties of a radio operator. Can you tell me and all of us, what you did at briefing, and a little about radio procedure used in the air. You ROs also fired off the pyrotechnics (flares), right, and where in charge of taking pics with the strike camera if so equipped, right? It must have been more frightening in the radio room than anywhere else, because you couldn't see out, except through the dorsal window and one on the side of the a/c. Did you only use Morse with the squadron, group and base, or did you also have voice? Please don't get angry, but did you ever put on AFN radio either going to or returning from the Continent like portrayed in Memphis Belle? I've been in a radio room of a Fort and have seen the equipment. It's amazing that today all of that stuff would fit in na transistor radio! Seriously, please tell us all about your duties and how you accomplished them. Thanks! Kevin >From: B17GSparks@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:10:53 EST > >On our 5th mission to Brunswick, Germany, on October 22, 1944, one of our >500 >Lb. >bombs hung up in the bomb bay. The front of the bomb was free from the >shackle and the arming wire had pulled free. The bomb was hanging at an >angle on only the rear hook of the shackle. When I opened the radio room >door to the bomb bay I noticed the bomb and called the bombardier to salvo, >but it would not fall free. I then went into the bomb bay wearing my chest >pack parachute and carrying a walk around oxygen bottle, I sat on the cat >walk, twisted my legs into the cross brases of the cat walk and then >hanging >onto the bomb bay upright supports with my left arm, I signaled the waist >gunner to have the bombardier open the bomb bay. I swung at the rear >shackle >hook with the walk around bottle, four times, when it finally fell free. >For > a brief moment I looked down to see the clouds flying by and then became >terrifyingly aware that the enemy was 28,000 feet below me! I then dragged >my self back into the radio room, very much relieved and uttered a prayer >of >thanks to God. >We did not have anyone specifically trained to release a hung up bomb, I >just >did what I thought I should do at the time to save our plane and our crew. >Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17G #44-8427 Gmernicki >Crew 358th Squadron. (This is an excerpt from my book DIARY: 35) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 21 23:44:00 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:44:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Message-ID: <41.1716c49e.297e01c0@aol.com> you can see the rack fixture about several have quizzed. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 22 00:28:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:28:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Medals Message-ID: To All 303rd Members- I have been informed that my question about medals may have, in a way, caught a nerve with a few veterans. I do totally realize that the men who served accepted their madals, but in their hearts they were just doing their duties. I hope that no one was offended by my question. I was just a little curious, and I apologize for any misunderstandings. Brian Pearson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 22 00:30:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:30:07 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Metals References: Message-ID: <3C4CB290.CC997368@attglobal.net> Pearson ... Yes, the Medals may be a touchy subject, but let us not forget, at the time, it was a way for a grateful military and its government, to give their thanks. We all knew we accepted them in the names of countless others who were not still with us ... As for being proud, any person who served should be proud and never bothered by those of the illiteri among us who know neither service nor valor. Yet we abide the Hanoi Janes among us, to include MANY of so-called Academe who still teach a certain hatred of those who served. It is even occurring again today, after one of the most heinous crimes against a society as was the WTC attack. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Brian: Oh, my wayward son. I know I said to ask any question you wanted > but the one about medals (not metals) may be a bit charged. This poem will > explain it better than I ever could: > > Don't envy a man his medals > All those ribbons on his chest > He did not try to get them > They're not there at his request > They were earned in stinking hell holes > Where no man would like to go > Or in cold and wintry places > Where there's only ice and snow > He did not know he earned them > Till they were awarded at parade > And they were bright when he first got them > But in time the colors fade > He was told he had to wear them > And to wear them all with pride > But when the memories come to haunt him > Those same medals make him hide > Cause those medals will not bring back > All those guys he left behind > And he would trade them all forever > For a little peace of mind > So don't envy a man his medals > You don't want to take his place > Thinking back to long gone battles > And meeting dead friends face to face > > Many of the guys on this forum are too modest and humble to discuss their > medals. Most accepted their medals, but only on behalf of their friends who > died. So be careful with this - it is one of those touchy subjects. > Big K > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 22 14:22:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:22:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Message-ID: Did any of you receive training about how to handle hung up bombs while in the states or on base? Or was it simply on the job training? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Egan [SMTP:patrick@openmake.com] Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:24 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb I'd be interested in the duties of the RO too. My Dad Don Reid was Radio Operator in the 305th but I dont have much more info than that so far. Here's an interesting picture of a Bomb getting kicked out. Must be at low altitude however cause he's not wearing O2 http://www.egan.org/b17/kick-out-bombay.jpg ___________________________ Patrick Egan Catalyst Systems Ph: 805-696-6844 Email: patrick@egan.org -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:54 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Hi Ray: I have not seen much either in writing or on the web about the duties of a radio operator. Can you tell me and all of us, what you did at briefing, and a little about radio procedure used in the air. You ROs also fired off the pyrotechnics (flares), right, and where in charge of taking pics with the strike camera if so equipped, right? It must have been more frightening in the radio room than anywhere else, because you couldn't see out, except through the dorsal window and one on the side of the a/c. Did you only use Morse with the squadron, group and base, or did you also have voice? Please don't get angry, but did you ever put on AFN radio either going to or returning from the Continent like portrayed in Memphis Belle? I've been in a radio room of a Fort and have seen the equipment. It's amazing that today all of that stuff would fit in na transistor radio! Seriously, please tell us all about your duties and how you accomplished them. Thanks! Kevin >From: B17GSparks@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:10:53 EST > >On our 5th mission to Brunswick, Germany, on October 22, 1944, one of our >500 >Lb. >bombs hung up in the bomb bay. The front of the bomb was free from the >shackle and the arming wire had pulled free. The bomb was hanging at an >angle on only the rear hook of the shackle. When I opened the radio room >door to the bomb bay I noticed the bomb and called the bombardier to salvo, >but it would not fall free. I then went into the bomb bay wearing my chest >pack parachute and carrying a walk around oxygen bottle, I sat on the cat >walk, twisted my legs into the cross brases of the cat walk and then >hanging >onto the bomb bay upright supports with my left arm, I signaled the waist >gunner to have the bombardier open the bomb bay. I swung at the rear >shackle >hook with the walk around bottle, four times, when it finally fell free. >For > a brief moment I looked down to see the clouds flying by and then became >terrifyingly aware that the enemy was 28,000 feet below me! I then dragged >my self back into the radio room, very much relieved and uttered a prayer >of >thanks to God. >We did not have anyone specifically trained to release a hung up bomb, I >just >did what I thought I should do at the time to save our plane and our crew. >Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17G #44-8427 Gmernicki >Crew 358th Squadron. (This is an excerpt from my book DIARY: 35) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 00:12:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:12:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can't ANYBODY help with this P-38/Lightning question??? References: <002701c19fd4$b58bb680$02000003@r1m1z6> Message-ID: <00ca01c1a3a2$9cbac5c0$02000003@r1m1z6> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C1A35F.8DCE1B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of months ago I asked for information on Lt. Albert Albino, a = P-38 pilot of the 38th Fighter Squadron in Nuthampstead who was KIA 29 = Nov 43. Robb Hoover pointed me to a Dutch web site that had virtually all the = info I needed. (Thanks Robb!!) But information there has raised a = question vital to answering exactly how Lt. Albino died and the question = has to do with the flight characteristics of the P-38 Lighting. The question is whether Lt. Albino deliberately flew his Lighting into = a nazi railroad marshalling yard or whether he may have been dead as the air = frame made its decent. =20 I think only someone who knows the flight characteristics of the P-38 = can answer the question. To one who is completely untrained in this = area (that would be me), the description of Albino's decent indicates he = was already dead. If any of you can substantiate an argument to the = contrary, I'd dearly love to hear from you. Here's the eyewitness description from the Dutch website. There were some German fighters shooting at the English, English = fighters. We could not see the difference. Then suddenly one tumbled = down, a double tailed one that came down tail first. >From where we = stood, at Krakeel in the northwest we could see that initially he = dropped tail first. The suddenly, whether by the weight of his engines, = or because the pilot was still alert he came head down first. He roared = though the air. You saw smoke and small spurts of fire. In the narrative, the author of the article describes the P-38's = decent as a "corkscrew." He told me that description came from other = eyewitness reports that he did not include in the article. He also = mentions that the Lightning came straight down and he assumed that = Albino was dead before impact. When I asked him exactly what that = meant, he replied, (I cleaned up the grammar a bit) From the moment on the plane started falling, it fell in a straight = line to the earth, from great height, making a corkscrew, and not making = any movement that would give a sign that anyone was still alive in it. = If Albert Albino would have lived, or would have been alive (and not = unconscious), perhaps he would have tried to get the plane out of the = corkscrew, or the plane would have crashed in a long glide, and not = falling from a high level to the earth like a dead peace of iron...... So, the bottom line: 1) Does the corkscrewing mean Albino was dead or = that he couldn't have pulled the P-38 out of that dive. Just exactly = what does the corkscrewing mean? 2) What was the reason the plane fell = tail first then flipped over and ultimately went in head first? I'm sincerely looking forward to your responses. God Bless You All, John D. Alger ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C1A35F.8DCE1B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A couple of months ago = I asked for=20 information on Lt. Albert Albino, a P-38 pilot of the 38th Fighter = Squadron in=20 Nuthampstead who was KIA 29 Nov 43.
Robb Hoover pointed me to a = Dutch web=20 site that had virtually all the info I needed. (Thanks =20 Robb!!) But information there has raised a question vital to = answering=20 exactly how Lt. Albino died and the question has to do with the flight = characteristics of the P-38 Lighting.

The question is whether = Lt.=20 Albino deliberately flew his Lighting into a nazi
railroad = marshalling yard=20 or whether he may have been dead as the air frame
made its = decent. =20

I think only someone who knows the flight characteristics of the = P-38 can=20 answer the question. To one who is completely untrained in this = area=20 (that would be me), the description of Albino's decent indicates he = was=20 already dead. If any of you can substantiate an argument to the=20 contrary, I'd dearly love to hear from you.

Here's the = eyewitness=20 description from the Dutch website.

There were some German fighters shooting at the English, = English=20 fighters. We could not see the difference. Then suddenly = one=20 tumbled down, a double tailed one that came down tail first. = >From=20 where we stood, at Krakeel in the northwest we could see that = initially he=20 dropped tail first. The suddenly, whether by the weight of his = engines, or because the pilot was still alert he came head down = first. =20 He roared though the air. You saw smoke and small spurts of=20 fire.

In the narrative, the author of the article describes = the P-38's=20 decent as a "corkscrew." He told me that description came from = other=20 eyewitness reports that he did not include in the article. He = also=20 mentions that the Lightning came straight down and he assumed that = Albino was=20 dead before impact. When I asked him exactly what that meant, he = replied, (I cleaned up the grammar a bit)

From the moment on the plane started falling, it fell in a = straight=20 line to the earth, from great height, making a corkscrew, and not = making any=20 movement that would give a sign that anyone was still alive in it. = If Albert=20 Albino would have lived, or would have been alive (and not = unconscious),=20 perhaps he would have tried to get the plane out of the corkscrew, = or the=20 plane would have crashed in a long glide, and not falling from a = high level=20 to the earth like a dead peace of iron......

So, the bottom line: 1) Does the = corkscrewing mean=20 Albino was dead or that he couldn't have pulled the P-38 out of that=20 dive. Just exactly what does the corkscrewing mean? 2) = What was=20 the reason the plane fell tail first then flipped over and ultimately = went in=20 head first?

I'm sincerely looking forward to your responses.

God Bless You All,

John D. Alger

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C1A35F.8DCE1B40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 00:35:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:35:36 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: <5f.2137c54e.297f5f58@aol.com> John, It is very hard for me to answer your questions from the description you have relayed. A few observations and opinions. The only way I can think of where the P38 would have fallen tail first would be for it to stall in a very nose high attitude and probably with considerable power on both engines. I would not think it would stay in this position for over a few seconds unless some fairly sharp pilot was at the controls and deliberately trying to keep it that way. If it was very high as you story indicated it would be difficult for any one to see it and tell its position from the ground. If the pilot was dead or unconscious and it was trimmed nose high. It could stall but the nose would drop very quickly and it would not fall tail first. If the pilot was unconscious or dead and had fallen over the wheel it would very likely come down in a very steep spiral. It would be no problem to pull a P38 out of a steep dive as you have described if he had a few hundred feet and was not blind or dead or unconscious. If it was in a fight it could have had a mechanical failure like no elevator control, But I would doubt that as the pilot could have at least attempted a bail out. That would be a risky job as he would probably hit the tail in that attitude. I doubt if Lt. Albino would deliberately give his life for a RR yard. A battle ship or Aircraft carrier maybe but not a RR yard. I still didn't answer your questions but you can form your opinion. We will never really know. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 00:59:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:59:04 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb Message-ID: <20020123005905.PUIU13869.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Only classroom type instruction and that was brief. Kick or pry it loose concentrating on the shackle bomb hook that failed to open.....Bill Runnels, bombardier > Did any of you receive training about how to handle hung up bombs while in > the states or on base? Or was it simply on the job training? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Egan [SMTP:patrick@openmake.com] > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:24 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb > > I'd be interested in the duties of the RO too. My Dad Don Reid > was Radio Operator in the 305th but I dont have much more info than > that so far. > > Here's an interesting picture of a Bomb getting kicked out. Must be > at low altitude > however cause he's not wearing O2 > > http://www.egan.org/b17/kick-out-bombay.jpg > > ___________________________ > Patrick Egan > Catalyst Systems > Ph: 805-696-6844 > Email: patrick@egan.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:54 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb > > > Hi Ray: I have not seen much either in writing or on the web about > the > duties of a radio operator. Can you tell me and all of us, what you > did at > briefing, and a little about radio procedure used in the air. You > ROs also > fired off the pyrotechnics (flares), right, and where in charge of > taking > pics with the strike camera if so equipped, right? It must have > been more > frightening in the radio room than anywhere else, because you > couldn't see > out, except through the dorsal window and one on the side of the > a/c. > > Did you only use Morse with the squadron, group and base, or did you > also > have voice? Please don't get angry, but did you ever put on AFN > radio > either going to or returning from the Continent like portrayed in > Memphis > Belle? I've been in a radio room of a Fort and have seen the > equipment. > It's amazing that today all of that stuff would fit in na transistor > radio! > > Seriously, please tell us all about your duties and how you > accomplished > them. Thanks! > Kevin > > > >From: B17GSparks@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kicking out a hung-up bomb > >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:10:53 EST > > > >On our 5th mission to Brunswick, Germany, on October 22, 1944, one > of our > >500 > >Lb. > >bombs hung up in the bomb bay. The front of the bomb was free from > the > >shackle and the arming wire had pulled free. The bomb was hanging > at an > >angle on only the rear hook of the shackle. When I opened the > radio room > >door to the bomb bay I noticed the bomb and called the bombardier > to salvo, > >but it would not fall free. I then went into the bomb bay wearing > my chest > >pack parachute and carrying a walk around oxygen bottle, I sat on > the cat > >walk, twisted my legs into the cross brases of the cat walk and > then > >hanging > >onto the bomb bay upright supports with my left arm, I signaled the > waist > >gunner to have the bombardier open the bomb bay. I swung at the > rear > >shackle > >hook with the walk around bottle, four times, when it finally fell > free. > >For > > a brief moment I looked down to see the clouds flying by and then > became > >terrifyingly aware that the enemy was 28,000 feet below me! I then > dragged > >my self back into the radio room, very much relieved and uttered a > prayer > >of > >thanks to God. > >We did not have anyone specifically trained to release a hung up > bomb, I > >just > >did what I thought I should do at the time to save our plane and > our crew. > >Ray Calenberg, Radio Operator on "Henn's Revenge" B-17G #44-8427 > Gmernicki > >Crew 358th Squadron. (This is an excerpt from my book DIARY: 35) > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 04:30:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:30:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: <154.7b6f414.297f9650@aol.com> John, I printed your letter concerning Lt. Albert Albino in a P38. After reading it over and thinking about it a bit I think from the eye witness description of his decent I might have been wrong about his term "corkscrew" If he simply stalled out in a fairly nose high attitude the plane very well could have rolled over as the nose fell through and as the nose dropped in an inverted position could have very well appeared to a layman on the ground as falling tail first for a few seconds. It would then if the pilot for any reason did not do a spin recovery have continued the spin straight down into the ground. This could very well be described as a corkscrew by a non pilot. The "straight down" decent would be more likely in a spin than in a spiral. I would estimate it would take at least some 600 feet to recover from a spin in a P38. Since Lt. Albino fell from a "great height" I must assume he was dead, unconscious or blind. Any army fighter pilot would have no trouble recovering from a spin unless something was wrong with his bird, then he could bail out if he was not hurt or? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 18:23:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:23:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: John: I am going to take a shot at answering your question along with Bill Runnels. (Bill Heller, please do not chastise me to badly for this attempt to explain stalls!) You apparently do not have any flight experience and seem to want to know what corkscrewing is and how a plane could fall tail first. Let me state I am not a veteran of the war, but I do hold a humble private pilot, airplane, single-engine, land rating. As the pitch angle of the nose of an aircraft increases, more power is needed to keep the plane climbing at the same speed, right? The aircraft will reach a point, even at full power, where gravity and drag exceed the available power (OK FA-18s and other modern fighters excluded). Also about this same time, one wing will loose lift before the other when the airspeed slows to a certain point - this speed is called stall speed and is different for every airplane and depends other factors besides engine power and pitch, but let's not worry about those right now. When a plane copntinues to climb at a steep angle, that is, the pitch angle continues to increase, the airplane will slow down unless more power is applied. Even at full throttle with a very high pitch angle, the airspeed will decrease to the point where one wing looses lift. At this point the plane can appear to slide backwards, but not for very long because other forces begin to take over. With two huge Allison engines in the front of the P-38, gravity pulls them down at a faster rate (force equals mass times acceletation squared), and the plane pitches over nose first. Now keep in mind one of our wings has lost its ability to provide lift and the one wing that is providing lift will rotate around the one that isn't, hence the corkscrewing effect or spin. Buy one of those cheap balsa airplanes, take off one wing, and you will be able to see this. The way to recover from a spin is by pushing the nose (elevator) down (assuming the aircraft was not flying inverted), and applying rudder in the opposite direction of the spin. Since Abino's a/c continued to spin into the ground from a high altitude, I would venture that he was unconscious, wounded or dead, OR that the aircraft had been damaged in the fight, making it unrecoverable. If the a/c was unrecoverable, he could have bailed out if he wasn't too badly hurt or the canopy was not jammed. Most any pilot, even with his eyes closed, could recover from a spin. In today's airplanes there is a stall warning that sounds when the airspeed is getting close to stalling speed - not sure about P-38s. When the plane does stall, you can usually feel a jerk as one wing looses lift and the plane pitches forward. I hope this helps. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 21:15:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:15:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics References: <154.7b6f414.297f9650@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c1a453$1a7376a0$02000003@r1m1z6> Jack, Would you consent to allowing me to send you a copy of this article and you read the entire thing and make and assessment? John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > John, > I printed your letter concerning Lt. Albert Albino in a P38. After > reading it over and thinking about it a bit I think from the eye witness > description of his decent I might have been wrong about his term "corkscrew" > If he simply stalled out in a fairly nose high attitude the plane very well > could have rolled over as the nose fell through and as the nose dropped in an > inverted position could have very well appeared to a layman on the ground as > falling tail first for a few seconds. It would then if the pilot for any > reason did not do a spin recovery have continued the spin straight down into > the ground. This could very well be described as a corkscrew by a non pilot. > The "straight down" decent would be more likely in a spin than in a spiral. > I would estimate it would take at least some 600 feet to recover from a spin > in a P38. Since Lt. Albino fell from a "great height" I must assume he was > dead, unconscious or blind. Any army fighter pilot would have no trouble > recovering from a spin unless something was wrong with his bird, then he > could bail out if he was not hurt or? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 23 19:02:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:02:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Toggling hung up bombs out. Message-ID: <004001c1a440$7ff21bc0$0000a398@SHANK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1A416.960C2A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had an incident in which a bomb hung up. It was discovered when we = coming back over the North Sea at about 2000 ft. It was not seen by our = RO because it was attached to the lowest inboard shackle. It was kicked = out by our Waist Gunner who was also an Armorer and had knowledge of the = workings of the shackles. He triggered the bomb out by releasing the = tong with his screwdriver. We had come thru the Ruhr Valley (by error) = on this mission and had taken several hundred Flak hits. It was an = additional miracle on this particular trip because we had only one = Purple Heart whereas everyone aboard had had a very narrow miss. Herb = Shanker ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1A416.960C2A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We had an incident in which a bomb hung = up. It was=20 discovered when we coming back over the North Sea at about 2000 ft. It = was not=20 seen by our RO because it was attached to the lowest inboard shackle. It = was=20 kicked out by our Waist Gunner who was also an Armorer and had knowledge = of the=20 workings of the shackles. He triggered the bomb out by releasing = the tong=20 with his screwdriver. We had come thru the Ruhr Valley (by error) on = this=20 mission and had taken several hundred Flak hits. It was an additional = miracle on=20 this particular trip because we had only one Purple Heart whereas = everyone=20 aboard had had a very narrow miss. Herb = Shanker

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1A416.960C2A60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 24 02:27:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:27:46 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: <32.2134a240.2980cb22@aol.com> John, Sure you can send me the inter article. I am certainly no expert, but I am opinionated so I would be glad to look at it and tell you what I think. My snail mail address is Jack Rencher 8865 E. Baseline #1737 Mesa AZ 85208. A point of interest, perhaps. When in the US Army Pilot Cadet program I graduated from Williams Field which was a P38 Advanced School. Where I live in the winter is in (under) the traffic pattern of said Williams Field. Another point of interest. It is winter now. Brrrr Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 24 05:40:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:40:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics References: Message-ID: <001801c1a499$ad0f57e0$02000003@r1m1z6> Kevin, Thanks for the complete explanation. I'm afraid I've had a hole shot in the bottom of my boat though. I'd hoped to find that Lt Albino had in fact deliberately turned his Lightning into the Marshalling yard. (Since rail was the primary means of supply and personnel transport, destruction of a major rail artery would cause a significant disruption of the nazi regional war effort. It would have been a gallant action.) Instead, I think your explanation lends credibility to the argument that Porgy (Lt Albino's nickname in high school) was unconscious or dead during the Lightning's decent and crash. God Bless You Kevin, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > John: I am going to take a shot at answering your question along with Bill > Runnels. (Bill Heller, please do not chastise me to badly for this attempt > to explain stalls!) You apparently do not have any flight experience and > seem to want to know what corkscrewing is and how a plane could fall tail > first. Let me state I am not a veteran of the war, but I do hold a humble > private pilot, airplane, single-engine, land rating. > > As the pitch angle of the nose of an aircraft increases, more power is > needed to keep the plane climbing at the same speed, right? The aircraft > will reach a point, even at full power, where gravity and drag exceed the > available power (OK FA-18s and other modern fighters excluded). Also about > this same time, one wing will loose lift before the other when the airspeed > slows to a certain point - this speed is called stall speed and is different > for every airplane and depends other factors besides engine power and pitch, > but let's not worry about those right now. When a plane copntinues to climb > at a steep angle, that is, the pitch angle continues to increase, the > airplane will slow down unless more power is applied. Even at full throttle > with a very high pitch angle, the airspeed will decrease to the point where > one wing looses lift. At this point the plane can appear to slide > backwards, but not for very long because other forces begin to take over. > With two huge Allison engines in the front of the P-38, gravity pulls them > down at a faster rate (force equals mass times acceletation squared), and > the plane pitches over nose first. Now keep in mind one of our wings has > lost its ability to provide lift and the one wing that is providing lift > will rotate around the one that isn't, hence the corkscrewing effect or > spin. Buy one of those cheap balsa airplanes, take off one wing, and you > will be able to see this. The way to recover from a spin is by pushing the > nose (elevator) down (assuming the aircraft was not flying inverted), and > applying rudder in the opposite direction of the spin. Since Abino's a/c > continued to spin into the ground from a high altitude, I would venture that > he was unconscious, wounded or dead, OR that the aircraft had been damaged > in the fight, making it unrecoverable. If the a/c was unrecoverable, he > could have bailed out if he wasn't too badly hurt or the canopy was not > jammed. Most any pilot, even with his eyes closed, could recover from a > spin. In today's airplanes there is a stall warning that sounds when the > airspeed is getting close to stalling speed - not sure about P-38s. When > the plane does stall, you can usually feel a jerk as one wing looses lift > and the plane pitches forward. I hope this helps. > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 24 18:29:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:29:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: John: Please send me the article and I would be pleased to read it. The only thing I have learned in the ten years I have been researching men, missions and planes is it is very hard to draw conclusions if all the facts were not gathered at the time of the event. Send me the story and I will give you my thought. Kevin >From: "john and linda alger" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:15:36 -0800 > >Jack, > > Would you consent to allowing me to send you a copy of this article >and >you read the entire thing and make and assessment? > > John > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:30 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > > > > John, > > I printed your letter concerning Lt. Albert Albino in a P38. After > > reading it over and thinking about it a bit I think from the eye witness > > description of his decent I might have been wrong about his term >"corkscrew" > > If he simply stalled out in a fairly nose high attitude the plane very >well > > could have rolled over as the nose fell through and as the nose dropped >in >an > > inverted position could have very well appeared to a layman on the >ground >as > > falling tail first for a few seconds. It would then if the pilot for >any > > reason did not do a spin recovery have continued the spin straight down >into > > the ground. This could very well be described as a corkscrew by a non >pilot. > > The "straight down" decent would be more likely in a spin than in a >spiral. > > I would estimate it would take at least some 600 feet to recover from a >spin > > in a P38. Since Lt. Albino fell from a "great height" I must assume he >was > > dead, unconscious or blind. Any army fighter pilot would have no trouble > > recovering from a spin unless something was wrong with his bird, then he > > could bail out if he was not hurt or? > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 24 18:39:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:39:46 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: All I can say, John, is there would not be much honor or glory in dying over a marshalling yard. Our boys wanted to live, to fight the Nazis and Japs, and go home, not die for a lousy marshalling yard. Certainly there were many acts of heroism in the skies over Nazi Germany, but many for these feats were for the sake of their crewmembers. I have heard many instances where a crippled planes were intentionally flown away from city centers, even in Germany, to avoid civilian casualties. Our boys did the right thing most of the time, but to deliberately fly into a railroad yard would not be one of them. They wanted to live to fight another day and then go home. Kevin >From: "john and linda alger" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:40:46 -0800 > >Kevin, > > Thanks for the complete explanation. > >I'm afraid I've had a hole shot in the bottom of my boat though. > >I'd hoped to find that Lt Albino had in fact deliberately turned his >Lightning into the Marshalling yard. (Since rail was the primary means of >supply and personnel transport, destruction of a major rail artery would >cause a significant disruption of the nazi regional war effort. It would >have been a gallant action.) Instead, I think your explanation lends >credibility to the argument that Porgy (Lt Albino's nickname in high >school) >was unconscious or dead during the Lightning's decent and crash. > >God Bless You Kevin, > John >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:23 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > > > > John: I am going to take a shot at answering your question along with >Bill > > Runnels. (Bill Heller, please do not chastise me to badly for this >attempt > > to explain stalls!) You apparently do not have any flight experience >and > > seem to want to know what corkscrewing is and how a plane could fall >tail > > first. Let me state I am not a veteran of the war, but I do hold a >humble > > private pilot, airplane, single-engine, land rating. > > > > As the pitch angle of the nose of an aircraft increases, more power is > > needed to keep the plane climbing at the same speed, right? The >aircraft > > will reach a point, even at full power, where gravity and drag exceed >the > > available power (OK FA-18s and other modern fighters excluded). Also >about > > this same time, one wing will loose lift before the other when the >airspeed > > slows to a certain point - this speed is called stall speed and is >different > > for every airplane and depends other factors besides engine power and >pitch, > > but let's not worry about those right now. When a plane copntinues to >climb > > at a steep angle, that is, the pitch angle continues to increase, the > > airplane will slow down unless more power is applied. Even at full >throttle > > with a very high pitch angle, the airspeed will decrease to the point >where > > one wing looses lift. At this point the plane can appear to slide > > backwards, but not for very long because other forces begin to take >over. > > With two huge Allison engines in the front of the P-38, gravity pulls >them > > down at a faster rate (force equals mass times acceletation squared), >and > > the plane pitches over nose first. Now keep in mind one of our wings >has > > lost its ability to provide lift and the one wing that is providing lift > > will rotate around the one that isn't, hence the corkscrewing effect or > > spin. Buy one of those cheap balsa airplanes, take off one wing, and >you > > will be able to see this. The way to recover from a spin is by pushing >the > > nose (elevator) down (assuming the aircraft was not flying inverted), >and > > applying rudder in the opposite direction of the spin. Since Abino's >a/c > > continued to spin into the ground from a high altitude, I would venture >that > > he was unconscious, wounded or dead, OR that the aircraft had been >damaged > > in the fight, making it unrecoverable. If the a/c was unrecoverable, he > > could have bailed out if he wasn't too badly hurt or the canopy was not > > jammed. Most any pilot, even with his eyes closed, could recover from a > > spin. In today's airplanes there is a stall warning that sounds when >the > > airspeed is getting close to stalling speed - not sure about P-38s. >When > > the plane does stall, you can usually feel a jerk as one wing looses >lift > > and the plane pitches forward. I hope this helps. > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From palidin@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 24 23:28:48 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:28:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission planning Message-ID: I want to thank everyone for the comments they have made regarding my question about " Hung " bombs. I thank Patrick Egan for the photo he shared showing a flash view of the bomb-bay and his dad dealing with the circumstance. Part of my question was about the mechanisms that held the bombs in place and how they were released over the target. I still don't understand the total picture from loading, to arming, to release; and the mechanisms involved and how they worked; and how they sometimes went awry. . I seem to reiterate a question that has already been addressed, yet l would still appreciate comments on this subject. In February, I will ask a question about altitude, strike force configuration, and strategic effectiveness; the strategy, mind-set, and expected results envisioned by the planners. . As thorough an understanding as is possible abets what we all wish to preserve. Lloyd Grant From hellcat_one@hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 08:36:04 2002 From: hellcat_one@hotmail.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:36:04 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics Message-ID: You may, or may not be interested in any information in this website, And it really has nothing to do with your question. But, Here it is. http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/lockp38.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From wheller@attglobal.net Fri Jan 25 18:03:08 2002 From: wheller@attglobal.net (William Heller) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:03:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics References: Message-ID: <3C519DDD.82567740@attglobal.net> Pearson ... We attacked marshallng yards on regular occasions. They were not "lousy" marshalling yards, they were part of the engine of the enemy. Marshalling yards were the center of all their production and distribution. I'll not mention the "kamikaze" attitude that this subject has taken because I do not think it obtains in this discussion. Most "kamikaze" attacks, except those trained and planned for in Japan ... were the result of a dead pilot or other problems. I once experienced an Me109 coming right at me BUT no guns blazing. I slid under the Fort to my right and he passed me right by. To this day I am convinced he was dead and NOT attempting to ram me. Having spoken to German pilots, their ramming was done mostly from the hind quarter in a planned attack which allowed the pilot to bail out. It was more of a last resort at the end of the war. As to marshalling yards being "lousy" or of no consequence in our war (the one we won) that is NOT the case. They were IMPORTANT to the enemy and thus merited destruction. Cheers! Kevin Pearson wrote: > All I can say, John, is there would not be much honor or glory in dying over > a marshalling yard. Our boys wanted to live, to fight the Nazis and Japs, > and go home, not die for a lousy marshalling yard. Certainly there were > many acts of heroism in the skies over Nazi Germany, but many for these > feats were for the sake of their crewmembers. I have heard many instances > where a crippled planes were intentionally flown away from city centers, > even in Germany, to avoid civilian casualties. Our boys did the right thing > most of the time, but to deliberately fly into a railroad yard would not be > one of them. They wanted to live to fight another day and then go home. > Kevin > > >From: "john and linda alger" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:40:46 -0800 > > > >Kevin, > > > > Thanks for the complete explanation. > > > >I'm afraid I've had a hole shot in the bottom of my boat though. > > > >I'd hoped to find that Lt Albino had in fact deliberately turned his > >Lightning into the Marshalling yard. (Since rail was the primary means of > >supply and personnel transport, destruction of a major rail artery would > >cause a significant disruption of the nazi regional war effort. It would > >have been a gallant action.) Instead, I think your explanation lends > >credibility to the argument that Porgy (Lt Albino's nickname in high > >school) > >was unconscious or dead during the Lightning's decent and crash. > > > >God Bless You Kevin, > > John > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:23 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] P-38 Lighting flight characteristics > > > > > > > John: I am going to take a shot at answering your question along with > >Bill > > > Runnels. (Bill Heller, please do not chastise me to badly for this > >attempt > > > to explain stalls!) You apparently do not have any flight experience > >and > > > seem to want to know what corkscrewing is and how a plane could fall > >tail > > > first. Let me state I am not a veteran of the war, but I do hold a > >humble > > > private pilot, airplane, single-engine, land rating. > > > > > > As the pitch angle of the nose of an aircraft increases, more power is > > > needed to keep the plane climbing at the same speed, right? The > >aircraft > > > will reach a point, even at full power, where gravity and drag exceed > >the > > > available power (OK FA-18s and other modern fighters excluded). Also > >about > > > this same time, one wing will loose lift before the other when the > >airspeed > > > slows to a certain point - this speed is called stall speed and is > >different > > > for every airplane and depends other factors besides engine power and > >pitch, > > > but let's not worry about those right now. When a plane copntinues to > >climb > > > at a steep angle, that is, the pitch angle continues to increase, the > > > airplane will slow down unless more power is applied. Even at full > >throttle > > > with a very high pitch angle, the airspeed will decrease to the point > >where > > > one wing looses lift. At this point the plane can appear to slide > > > backwards, but not for very long because other forces begin to take > >over. > > > With two huge Allison engines in the front of the P-38, gravity pulls > >them > > > down at a faster rate (force equals mass times acceletation squared), > >and > > > the plane pitches over nose first. Now keep in mind one of our wings > >has > > > lost its ability to provide lift and the one wing that is providing lift > > > will rotate around the one that isn't, hence the corkscrewing effect or > > > spin. Buy one of those cheap balsa airplanes, take off one wing, and > >you > > > will be able to see this. The way to recover from a spin is by pushing > >the > > > nose (elevator) down (assuming the aircraft was not flying inverted), > >and > > > applying rudder in the opposite direction of the spin. Since Abino's > >a/c > > > continued to spin into the ground from a high altitude, I would venture > >that > > > he was unconscious, wounded or dead, OR that the aircraft had been > >damaged > > > in the fight, making it unrecoverable. If the a/c was unrecoverable, he > > > could have bailed out if he wasn't too badly hurt or the canopy was not > > > jammed. Most any pilot, even with his eyes closed, could recover from a > > > spin. In today's airplanes there is a stall warning that sounds when > >the > > > airspeed is getting close to stalling speed - not sure about P-38s. > >When > > > the plane does stall, you can usually feel a jerk as one wing looses > >lift > > > and the plane pitches forward. I hope this helps. > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From b.runnels@att.net Fri Jan 25 19:46:36 2002 From: b.runnels@att.net (b.runnels@att.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:46:36 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms Message-ID: <20020125194637.MKTQ3409.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, I found a great picture that will enable you to better understand the "bomb loading/release" procedure. Type in " B-17G " on search. Go to item #8-B-17- Aircraft Profiles-Flight Journal Magazine. A note " page no longer available " appears for a second but the page does come in. Click on Bombay section of aircraft drawing.Zoom in on right bomb. Note the A-4 Bomb Release Unit above and at the bomb location mounted between the AI-frame ribs. Both the shackle and release unit arms are in the "cocked" position (spread apart) however they don't appear to be interfaced as they should be, Bombs were loaded with a C-3A hoist capable of lifting 2,000 pounds. The shackle was attached to the bomb while it was on the ground then lifted into the aircraft. The shackle with bomb attached was then mounted to the bomb rack at the designated station. You will find a lot of interesting information at the referenced web site. Regards....Bill Runnels, bombardier > Bill, thank you. This helps a great deal. I am lucky as I live very close > to Fantasy of Flight and they have a B-17 on display. When I can physically > see the shackles and the mechanisms that operated them, I will be better > able to understand how they work. I appreciate your tolerance and patience. > ( and this goes for all of you who have responded.) > > With respect, > Lloyd. > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On > Behalf Of b.runnels@att.net > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 1:41 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb loading and release mechanisms > > Allow me to try one more time to answer your question. > If this attempt remains as clear as mud I will > understand. B-17 bomb racks in the bomb bay have 42 > stations which accommodate space requirements of the > various bomb sizes. Example: 12 500lb bombs would be > loaded at stations 2, 7, 10, 11, 18, 21, 23, 28, 31, 32, > 39, and 42. Using the same example, 12 shackles and A-4 > bomb release units would be required. Th B-7 shackle > will accommodate up to 1100 pounds and are attached to > the bomb rack at the specified stations. Bomb release > units are also required at the same stations. The A-4 > bomb release units ate controlled from the bombsight or > bombardiers panel through a 24 volt electrical system. > The two shackle arms interface with the two bomb release > unit arms giving control of both to the release unit. > When the increments on the bombsight come together, an > electrical impulse is dispatched to the release unit > unlocking the bomb holding hooks on the schackel > allowing the bomb to fall free of the aircraft. The > armature wires are anchored to the shackel and pull out > of the nose and tail fuse starting the rotation of the > fuse propellers which spin off arming the bomb. Hope > this will help......Bill Runnels, bombardier > > Thanks to everyone who responded to this question. Unfortunately, I still > > do not understand how the system worked. > > > > Lloyd. > > From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:26:27 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:26:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ramming Message-ID: I've mentioned Oskar Boesch before in this forum and since Bill Heller brings up this subject, I'll tell you what Oskar told me. Oskar rammed four a/c. He tried to ram a fifth, a B-24 and you are right, BH, they did try to ran from a read quarter. Oskar ran out of ammo and as he had to declare in writing before every mission, he would not come back unless he had a bomber victory, so he decided to ram this 24. He came in right behind the trailing edge of the B-24s left wing, got caught in the prop wash which threw him up and over the fuselage of the B-24. As he was going down, the gunners in the 24 had him zeroed in and the took a lot of hits to his FW-190 and ended up bailing out. Incredible! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From hoytwma2@msn.com Sat Jan 26 20:44:11 2002 From: hoytwma2@msn.com (hoytwma2) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:44:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My 2 cents (P-38) Message-ID: <006d01c1a6aa$36ba1360$79d70b3f@default> I think the young P-38 pilot couldnt do anything else and he managed to hit the spot he did by choice, avoiding civilian population and hitting something of target value at the same time. The man gave his life doing his duty. he was on a mission and had a job to do and he made the best out of a bad situation. I give him a Well Done instead of a Too Bad. Bill Hoyt From Gordon L. Alton" Message-ID: <002301c1a759$9f7ecda0$f091c8cf@home> Hi Stevin, There was no set rule for a certain number of Pathfinder Force (PFF) ships. In the time you are talking about, and especially for Jan. 11, 1944, a maximum effort was the order of the day, and most groups would have had 3 PPF bombers assigned to them. I am just going by memory on this, but trying to flip though a few books at the same time. In the winter of 43-44, losses were very heavy. The Jan. 11, 1944 mission to hit the fighter and aircraft factories, was one of the first maximum efforts that the 8AF was able to field. Losses in Oct., Nov., and December of 1943 had been very heavy. In order to put up a maximum effort, the deleted bomb groups of the 1st Air Division had to throw almost every plane available just to field the 3 squadrons needed for a normal mission. Max. effort usually meant that the BGs would field 4 squadrons. The fourth squadrons this day were a "composite" squadron, made up of planes from all 4 squadrons. This went for all of the Air Divisions this day : losses meant that composite squadrons would be scraped up from different squadrons, groups, CBWings, and even on a divisional level, in order to scrape up enough planes. The BG that supplied most of the 1st Division PFF aircraft was the 381st BG. Heavy previous losses, and horrible losses to the 381st this day, meant that each group did not get four PPF aircraft, one for each squadron. Later on, after Big Week in February, and the big buildups leading to D-Day, training and planes started to catch up to needs again. I'm afraid I can't help you much with specifics on the 3rd Air Division (AD). I just don't know it as well as the 1st AD, but they were set up in much the same way. So, if I have you good and mixed up by now, don't feel that it is you, or I, who can't figure it out. Basically it went like this: Maximum effort meant sending up four squadrons for every Bomb Group, and four groups for every CBWing. Therefore, that would call for 16 PFF crews, and at this stage of the game, there just weren't that many to be had. So, what was available went first to the leading CBW, and they would assign what was available to the leading BG, who in turn would assign resources to the leading BS. Does this make sense to you? It would take a lot of work to document just where each PFF plane went on a certain day. By the time June 6th (DDay) came, most of these needs could be filled by new crews, and new planes. On Jan. 11, 1944, there were not enough planes and crews. Bad weather that day as well, resulted in missed targets (91BG), recalls (3rd AD had some), and some very accurate bombing (the 381st did well here). Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com phone 250-537-5913 "Please remember those who gave so much for the freedom we enjoy this day." **************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "HeavyBombers.com" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > Gents, > > I wonder how many PFF ships would fly on a maximum effort mission? And where > would they fly? Seems to me in the Lead Sqn, Lead Group, Lead Wing.... > I am particularly interested in the January 11, 1944 mission to > Oschersleben, Braunschweig and Halberstadt. 3 big targets (Aircraft > Industry). > I know 3AD had the 94th Flying lead with two PFF ships from the 482BG.... > Can anyone shine a light on the use of PFF ships on this level (wing, AD)? > Thanks you! > Stevin Oudshoorn From misixflsix@webtv.net Mon Jan 28 01:16:55 2002 From: misixflsix@webtv.net (misixflsix@webtv.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:16:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why ground personnel were sent to Casablanca Message-ID: <23837-3C54A687-4241@storefull-293.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I was in the original ground echelon that went to Molesworth in Sep 42. I also was on the movement to North Africa in Jun 45. They selected ground personnel from two B17 outfits in England and one B24 outfit from Italy. Upon arrival at Casa AB we were dispersed to bases throughout the Med and Persian Gulf. We were replacing members of ATC (Arnold's Taxies Cab) We were assigned to various duty. Then along came the Purple (Shaft) Project and the only personnel had to have over 105 points. We were loaded on 10 C54's and ended up at Hamilton Field , Calif. We were all assembled and was informed that with our cooperation we would be on are way to Hickam Fld Hawaii in three hours. How ever VJ day came and that ended that portion of our trip. We were then sent to Mather AFB and then dispersed to various parts of the US for discharge. Sorry this was so long but the individual had asked why his father went to North Africa after VE day. From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Mon Jan 28 04:14:11 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:14:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] K RATIONS Message-ID: <000a01c1a7b2$3e496820$bfbb9ace@mjpmtman> That subject will take a little explaining. Lloyd Grant called - in the course of the conversation they were mentioned. Hadn't thought about this for years. When a replacement plane came in A/C Supply "cleaned outt" the ship. We collected the binoculars and the inevitable half a barracks bag [the old blue one] of K-rations.Were they put on board "just in case' or did you partake of them on the way over? We welcomed them. We sorted through them and each man picked out his favorite & most of us in the Main office had at least 2-3 in our desks most of the time. They came in handy at night while writing letters home.. The cocoa wasn't bad and I liked the canned cheese and bacon. Fruit bars were good too. MAURICE PAULK From owen26@tylermail.com Mon Jan 28 13:16:41 2002 From: owen26@tylermail.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:16:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Dates Message-ID: <002201c1a7fe$07561ba0$5b68db40@billowen> I am trying to help someone find the service dates of David Fanning who served in the 358th Squadron. His serial number is not listed on the 303rd personnel list. Do any of you know how to find his service dates without having a serial number to work with? Thanks, Bill Owen From b.oneill1@comcast.net Mon Jan 28 22:24:42 2002 From: b.oneill1@comcast.net (Brian D. O'Neill) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:24:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #493 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020128195317.A706453D86@pairlist.net> Message-ID: PFF Ships -- Jan. 11, 1944 There is an extended discussion in my book about the 303rd Bomb Group, "Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer," regarding the fates of the two PFF H2X equipped B-17s from the 482nd (PFF) Bomb Group in the 303rd formation on the January 11, 1944 Oschersleben mission. In brief, the 303rd was the lead group of the entire Eighth Air Force that day and flew with two PFF aircraft in the lead squadron. One was shot down on the very first pass. The second PFF ship made it to the 303rd's target, the Oschersleben Focke-Wulf A/C plant, but the bombing was visual (and very accurate) because of good visibility. I have ordered the MACR for the shot down H2X ship, to learn further details, and have a letter off to the contact man for the 482nd Group listed in www.heavybombers.com . I am very interested in learning more about the experiences of the two PFF ships on this mission, and the Luftwaffe units involved, because I want to make the first pass by the Luftwaffe on the 303rd formation the subject of the cover art for a new 303rd book I'm writing for the Osprey "Aviation Elite" series of books. If anyone knows what Luftwaffe units took part in the attacks on the 303rd on January 11, 1944 I would be very grateful for information from you. P.S. "Half A Wing" doesn't pretend to be an extensive study of PFF operations over northern Europe in late 1943 and early 1944, but the mission narratives I've put together for this period do discuss the background of PFF operations as they relate to 303rd missions, and you might consider checking it out on that basis. If you want further info from me, I'll be happy to supply it once I hear from the 482nd BG rep. Cordially, Brian D. O'Neill -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:53 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #493 - 4 msgs Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com You can reach the person managing the list at 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships (Gordon L. Alton) 2. Why ground personnel were sent to Casablanca (misixflsix@webtv.net) 3. K RATIONS (Maurice Paulk) 4. Service Dates (Bill Owen) --__--__-- Message: 1 Reply-To: "Gordon L. Alton" From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: , "HeavyBombers.com" Cc: <381st_BGMA@topica.com>, "303rd Bomb Group Talk List" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:39:28 -0800 Organization: self Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships Hi Stevin, There was no set rule for a certain number of Pathfinder Force (PFF) ships. In the time you are talking about, and especially for Jan. 11, 1944, a maximum effort was the order of the day, and most groups would have had 3 PPF bombers assigned to them. I am just going by memory on this, but trying to flip though a few books at the same time. In the winter of 43-44, losses were very heavy. The Jan. 11, 1944 mission to hit the fighter and aircraft factories, was one of the first maximum efforts that the 8AF was able to field. Losses in Oct., Nov., and December of 1943 had been very heavy. In order to put up a maximum effort, the deleted bomb groups of the 1st Air Division had to throw almost every plane available just to field the 3 squadrons needed for a normal mission. Max. effort usually meant that the BGs would field 4 squadrons. The fourth squadrons this day were a "composite" squadron, made up of planes from all 4 squadrons. This went for all of the Air Divisions this day : losses meant that composite squadrons would be scraped up from different squadrons, groups, CBWings, and even on a divisional level, in order to scrape up enough planes. The BG that supplied most of the 1st Division PFF aircraft was the 381st BG. Heavy previous losses, and horrible losses to the 381st this day, meant that each group did not get four PPF aircraft, one for each squadron. Later on, after Big Week in February, and the big buildups leading to D-Day, training and planes started to catch up to needs again. I'm afraid I can't help you much with specifics on the 3rd Air Division (AD). I just don't know it as well as the 1st AD, but they were set up in much the same way. So, if I have you good and mixed up by now, don't feel that it is you, or I, who can't figure it out. Basically it went like this: Maximum effort meant sending up four squadrons for every Bomb Group, and four groups for every CBWing. Therefore, that would call for 16 PFF crews, and at this stage of the game, there just weren't that many to be had. So, what was available went first to the leading CBW, and they would assign what was available to the leading BG, who in turn would assign resources to the leading BS. Does this make sense to you? It would take a lot of work to document just where each PFF plane went on a certain day. By the time June 6th (DDay) came, most of these needs could be filled by new crews, and new planes. On Jan. 11, 1944, there were not enough planes and crews. Bad weather that day as well, resulted in missed targets (91BG), recalls (3rd AD had some), and some very accurate bombing (the 381st did well here). Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com phone 250-537-5913 "Please remember those who gave so much for the freedom we enjoy this day." **************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "HeavyBombers.com" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > Gents, > > I wonder how many PFF ships would fly on a maximum effort mission? And where > would they fly? Seems to me in the Lead Sqn, Lead Group, Lead Wing.... > I am particularly interested in the January 11, 1944 mission to > Oschersleben, Braunschweig and Halberstadt. 3 big targets (Aircraft > Industry). > I know 3AD had the 94th Flying lead with two PFF ships from the 482BG.... > Can anyone shine a light on the use of PFF ships on this level (wing, AD)? > Thanks you! > Stevin Oudshoorn --__--__-- Message: 2 From: misixflsix@webtv.net Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:16:55 -0500 (EST) To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why ground personnel were sent to Casablanca I was in the original ground echelon that went to Molesworth in Sep 42. I also was on the movement to North Africa in Jun 45. They selected ground personnel from two B17 outfits in England and one B24 outfit from Italy. Upon arrival at Casa AB we were dispersed to bases throughout the Med and Persian Gulf. We were replacing members of ATC (Arnold's Taxies Cab) We were assigned to various duty. Then along came the Purple (Shaft) Project and the only personnel had to have over 105 points. We were loaded on 10 C54's and ended up at Hamilton Field , Calif. We were all assembled and was informed that with our cooperation we would be on are way to Hickam Fld Hawaii in three hours. How ever VJ day came and that ended that portion of our trip. We were then sent to Mather AFB and then dispersed to various parts of the US for discharge. Sorry this was so long but the individual had asked why his father went to North Africa after VE day. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:14:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] K RATIONS That subject will take a little explaining. Lloyd Grant called - in the course of the conversation they were mentioned. Hadn't thought about this for years. When a replacement plane came in A/C Supply "cleaned outt" the ship. We collected the binoculars and the inevitable half a barracks bag [the old blue one] of K-rations.Were they put on board "just in case' or did you partake of them on the way over? We welcomed them. We sorted through them and each man picked out his favorite & most of us in the Main office had at least 2-3 in our desks most of the time. They came in handy at night while writing letters home.. The cocoa wasn't bad and I liked the canned cheese and bacon. Fruit bars were good too. MAURICE PAULK --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bill Owen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:16:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Dates I am trying to help someone find the service dates of David Fanning who served in the 358th Squadron. His serial number is not listed on the 303rd personnel list. Do any of you know how to find his service dates without having a serial number to work with? Thanks, Bill Owen --__--__-- _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk End of 303rd-Talk Digest From palidin@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 29 02:18:58 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:18:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F " Joe BTFSPLKII " Message-ID: I can't remember where, nor how, but the plane was lost in action sometime in '43. It was originally assigned to the 427th Sq. I am wondering if the crash site might have been recorded, and if there were any survivors amongst the crew. My dad was the navigator on the original crew. Tail # 42-24610. My dad completed his 25 earlier than the shoot down of Joe BTFSPLK II. By then, it was an old airplane. I hope everyone got out of her before she went in. Thanks for whatever some of you may be able to pass along. L. Grant. From mred@elite.net Tue Jan 29 09:38:15 2002 From: mred@elite.net (Ed Carroll) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:38:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks Message-ID: <3C566D87.2D412ACF@elite.net> Just read of your (303rdBGA) exploits during WWII, it made me realize the debt of gratitude I owe each of you. Please accept my heartfelt thanks for what each of you, from the Commander down to newest recruit, did for me and all the other people of the free world. Ed C. USAF Retired 1 Jan 70 From schnauzman@mindspring.com Tue Jan 29 19:01:28 2002 From: schnauzman@mindspring.com (Karen & Elizabeth Bailey-Summers) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:01:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings and Salutations Message-ID: <001801c1a8f7$5c437dc0$b83345cf@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1A8CD.72BDFBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! I am looking for ANY information ANYBODY has on 1Lt. Thomas E. = Summers 0659925 NAV, (or any of the crew of the Fast Worker Mk II, = Capt. Sanford T. Smith of the 359th). Thomas Summers is my father, and = is a new grandfather. He, like so many other veterans, did not talk = about his experience in the Mighty Eighth. However, I am hoping to get = him to talk about this time period so that his grandson will have some = idea of what he and his buddies went through, and not just a "romantic = hollywood notion". Any sort of information would be greatly = appreciated. Thanks very much, Elizabeth Bailey-Summers ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1A8CD.72BDFBE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello! I am looking for ANY = information=20 ANYBODY has on 1Lt. Thomas E. Summers 0659925 NAV, (or any of the = crew of=20 the Fast Worker Mk II, Capt. Sanford T. Smith of the 359th). =20 Thomas Summers is my father, and is a new grandfather. He, = like so=20 many other veterans, did not talk about his experience in the Mighty=20 Eighth. However, I am hoping to get him to talk about this time = period so=20 that his grandson will have some idea of what he and his buddies went = through,=20 and not just a "romantic hollywood notion". Any sort of = information would=20 be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much,

Elizabeth = Bailey-Summers

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1A8CD.72BDFBE0-- From brianmac2@hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 06:09:30 2002 From: brianmac2@hotmail.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:09:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] AF Magazine & Lew Lyle Message-ID:

Received my Feb 02 issue today, and in an article about Maj Gen Frank Andrews there is a picture on page 88 of Gen Andrews at Molesworth. The airman directly behind Andrews looks like Capt Lew Lyle. Can anyone familiar with the picture confirm this, and identify anyone else?

Brian S. McGuire

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