From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 1 03:38:50 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:38:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: Why was 20-25 thousand feet considered to an optimal altitude for Heavy Bombers? Experience and history indicate that it was not to be beyond the range of fighter defense, nor flak barrages. At those altitudes the bomber crews were exposed to debilitating extremes of temperature, and the vital necessity for contained oxygen supplies ( in addition to other equipment). Contrails developing from engine exhaust easily betrayed the position, heading, and altitude of the formations. Hindsight does not resurrect, nor correct: it simply provides perspective. ( 1st question of 3 for February, 2002) As ever, thank you all for anything you can explain, or may care to comment on. Lloyd Grant 427th son. From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 1 15:51:37 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:51:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: <22.22ee3cb5.298c1389@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, Your question for 3 Feb 2002 has in my humble opinion has several false and misleading assumptions. (1) The question itself brings up the first one. Who said that 20-25000 feet was the optimal altitude for heavy bombers? The B17 & B24 both were heavy bombers as were the Lancaster and Halifax. Certainly the B17 had a higher optimal altitude than the B24 and both's were higher than the latter two (2) Contrails easily betrayed our position heading and altitude. Perhaps a bit to the civilians, but the German gunners were to busy with their radar to pay any attention to the contrails. (3) If we had flown our first daylight mission low enough we would have not have needed Oxygen we would have had no second one. We would all have been shot down on the first one. Now the Big answer. It took about 20 seconds for an 88 MM projectile to get to 20-25000 feet. In 20 seconds we would travel over one mile. That means they would have to lead us over one mile. If we changed our course or altitude a few degrees or a few feet in that mile they would miss us. Unless they guessed right which they did sometimes or put up a barrage which they did sometimes. In fact nearly all times on some targets. (4) Your word "debilitating" is and awfully big word for me to comment on, but we were not very easily debilitated. We were the Mighty 8th Air Force. What altitude would you suggest now that we have hindsight and perspective? Best Wishes Lloyd, Jack Rencher From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 18:04:57 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:04:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Jack: You wrote something to Lloyd and said soemthing I do not understand. You said the contrails gave away your altitude. How? Did it just make the Groups, Wings and Divisions more visible to the German gunners or would the contrails return an echo to German radar? I have read that some of the early raids on the submarine pens were at low altitude - 12,000 to 14,000 feet - and German flak was much more accurate, as you described the leading process. The Forts had a service ceiling somewhere around 33,000 feet and from what I have understood in this forum, you did not fly at those altitudes because the aircraft was very heavy and the air thinned out even more at that altitude making the flight controls mushy. One more question for our group: Did temperature play a factor in bombing altitude? Was there a temerature where the heavies couldn't operate? I know temps. got to 60 below F and that never stopped you. Thanks! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: palidin@worldnet.att.net, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:51:37 EST > >Friend Lloyd, > Your question for 3 Feb 2002 has in my humble opinion has several >false >and misleading assumptions. (1) The question itself brings up the first >one. >Who said that 20-25000 feet was the optimal altitude for heavy bombers? The >B17 & B24 both were heavy bombers as were the Lancaster and Halifax. >Certainly the B17 had a higher optimal altitude than the B24 and both's >were >higher than the latter two >(2) Contrails easily betrayed our position heading and altitude. Perhaps a >bit to the civilians, but the German gunners were to busy with their radar >to >pay any attention to the contrails. (3) If we had flown our first daylight >mission low enough we would have not have needed Oxygen we would have had >no >second one. We would all have been shot down on the first one. Now the Big >answer. It took about 20 seconds for an 88 MM projectile to get to >20-25000 >feet. In 20 seconds we would travel over one mile. That means they would >have to lead us over one mile. If we changed our course or altitude a few >degrees or a few feet in that mile they would miss us. Unless they guessed >right which they did sometimes or put up a barrage which they did >sometimes. >In fact nearly all times on some targets. (4) Your word "debilitating" is >and >awfully big word for me to comment on, but we were not very easily >debilitated. We were the Mighty 8th Air Force. What altitude would you >suggest now that we have hindsight and perspective? > Best Wishes Lloyd, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From demcnamara@CI.WASCO.CA.US Fri Feb 1 19:38:27 2002 From: demcnamara@CI.WASCO.CA.US (Dennis McNamara) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:38:27 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Thomas McClure Message-ID: <301CF82F5778AC419B2A0C077D239B12E5C6@MAIL.CI.WASCO.CA.US> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My uncle 1st Lt Thomas McClure trained B-17 pilots at Minter Field (Ca) before he was shipped oversees. Does anyone have any pictures or memories of him as an instructor or pilot. His B-17 was shot down and he was interred in Switzerland. Thanks in advance for your help =20 Dennis McNamara Assistant Planner City of Wasco demcnamara@ci.wasco.ca.us (661) 758-7210 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My uncle 1st Lt Thomas McClure trained = B-17 pilots at Minter Field (Ca) before he was shipped oversees. Does anyone = have any pictures or memories of him as an instructor or pilot. His B-17 was shot down and he was interred in = Switzerland.

Thanks in advance for your = help

 

Dennis McNamara

Assistant Planner

City of = Wasco

demcnamara@ci.wasco.ca.us

(661) 758-7210

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 1 20:13:51 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:13:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: Gentlemen, Thank you all. Sometimes the obvious answer is indeed the simplest to understand. I am reminded that there are no stupid questions ( though this one might have taxed the boundaries of that rule a shade). If I learn something from asking an ignorant question, I'll take my thumps. I learned something. I appreciate your remarks and comments. Lloyd. From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 1 20:50:00 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:50:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: <138.8af08ea.298c5978@aol.com> Friend Kevin' I was quoting a letter Lloyd wrote about the contrails. See if you can bring up the letter Lloyd wrote and you will understand I think. It was headed (303rd-talk Altitudes) I think we did not fly missions at 33,000 feet, because it would have taken so long with a full load and used so much fuel to get up there we would have not had enough fuel to get home. I have been up there (Not on a mission) and I don't think the mushy controls would have been a serious factor. Over speeding the turbos would probably be a potential problem as would the bends in some of the crew members. As far as I know low temperatures never got so low we couldn't operate. Now if it got to 100 degrees up there it would be a different story C or F. If you don't find Lloyds letter let me know and I will explain further. Thanks Kevin, Best Wishes, Jack From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 00:36:15 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:36:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Jack: Found the letter and understand. Very interesting about the overspeeding of the superchargers at higher altitudes. Would you mind explaining this a bit more, not real clear on it. Is it because the superchargers would have had to work harder at those altitudes to squeeze enough compressed air into the engine - the higher you go the faster the turbos? Thanks a bunch, you are a great help to us "youngsters!" Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com, palidin@worldnet.att.net, >303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:50:00 EST > >Friend Kevin' > I was quoting a letter Lloyd wrote about the contrails. See if you >can >bring > up the letter Lloyd wrote and you will understand I think. It was headed >(303rd-talk Altitudes) > I think we did not fly missions at 33,000 feet, because it would have >taken so long with a full load and used so much fuel to get up there we >would >have not had enough fuel to get home. I have been up there (Not on a >mission) and I don't think the mushy controls would have been a serious >factor. Over speeding the turbos would probably be a potential problem as >would the bends in some of the crew members. > As far as I know low temperatures never got so low we couldn't >operate. >Now if it got to 100 degrees up there it would be a different story C or F. > If you don't find Lloyds letter let me know and I will explain >further. > Thanks Kevin, Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Jprencher@aol.com Sat Feb 2 04:12:18 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:12:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Kevin, you are right on. As I remember the maximum speed of the rotors in the turbo superchargers was 33,000 RPM. That is 550 revolution per second. Remember they are operating in the very hot exhaust and are red or white hot when we were pulling high power like on take off. We had no way of KNOWING their speed. If they flew apart from over speeding the buckets flew off like a machine gun from the tremendous centrifugal force. They could chew a plane up like a machine gun. At high altitude where the air was thin they had to turn faster to pump more of the thin air to maintain the desired manifold pressure. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From s.oudshoorn@zonnet.nl Sat Feb 2 17:38:44 2002 From: s.oudshoorn@zonnet.nl (S. Oudshoorn) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:38:44 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships References: <0.10005332.152557300-1463792638-1012143719@topica.com> <002301c1a759$9f7ecda0$f091c8cf@home> Message-ID: <002a01c1ac10$76958850$0200a8c0@Basher82> Hello Mr. Alton and Mr. Jones, Thank you very much for your insights. They are very much appreciated. Going over the records I have available to me right now, I see that 94BG lead 3AD this day. They flew with two PFF ships (indeed the lead and deputy ships). Apparantly the 482BG supplied these ships. As far as I can ascertain, the 447BG flew in a composite Group with both 94BG and the 390BG, as well as flying in a group formation entirely made up of the 447th. The 447th did apparantly NOT fly with any PFF ships. That would fit in with Bill Jones's info, I guess, without wanting to suggest that Mr. Alton's info would be incorrect. But of course, there are a lot of records I still need to receive and study. Both your comments on the use of PFF ships have enlightened me on the use of these ships however. I do need to do some serious studying on the organizational side of the 8th Air Force. Any suggestions on books, etc. regarding this? Kind regards, Stevin PS: Please excuse me for my delayed response. My ISP (who actually does not deserve to have the letters isp capitalized) needed over four (4) days to do maintanance work. I still haven't recieved any e-mails that might have sent to me during the last four days. Neither have I ben able to sent e-mails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: ; "HeavyBombers.com" Cc: <381st_BGMA@topica.com>; "303rd Bomb Group Talk List" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > Hi Stevin, > There was no set rule for a certain number of Pathfinder Force (PFF) > ships. In the time you are talking about, and especially for Jan. 11, > 1944, a maximum effort was the order of the day, and most groups would > have had 3 PPF bombers assigned to them. > I am just going by memory on this, but trying to flip though a few books > at the same time. In the winter of 43-44, losses were very heavy. The > Jan. 11, 1944 mission to hit the fighter and aircraft factories, was one > of the first maximum efforts that the 8AF was able to field. Losses in > Oct., Nov., and December of 1943 had been very heavy. In order to put up > a maximum effort, the deleted bomb groups of the 1st Air Division had to > throw almost every plane available just to field the 3 squadrons needed > for a normal mission. Max. effort usually meant that the BGs would field > 4 squadrons. The fourth squadrons this day were a "composite" squadron, > made up of planes from all 4 squadrons. This went for all of the Air > Divisions this day : losses meant that composite squadrons would be > scraped up from different squadrons, groups, CBWings, and even on a > divisional level, in order to scrape up enough planes. > The BG that supplied most of the 1st Division PFF aircraft was the 381st > BG. Heavy previous losses, and horrible losses to the 381st this day, > meant that each group did not get four PPF aircraft, one for each > squadron. Later on, after Big Week in February, and the big buildups > leading to D-Day, training and planes started to catch up to needs again. > I'm afraid I can't help you much with specifics on the 3rd Air Division > (AD). I just don't know it as well as the 1st AD, but they were set up in > much the same way. > So, if I have you good and mixed up by now, don't feel that it is you, or > I, who can't figure it out. Basically it went like this: > Maximum effort meant sending up four squadrons for every Bomb Group, and > four groups for every CBWing. Therefore, that would call for 16 PFF > crews, and at this stage of the game, there just weren't that many to be > had. So, what was available went first to the leading CBW, and they would > assign what was available to the leading BG, who in turn would assign > resources to the leading BS. > Does this make sense to you? It would take a lot of work to document just > where each PFF plane went on a certain day. By the time June 6th (DDay) > came, most of these needs could be filled by new crews, and new planes. > On Jan. 11, 1944, there were not enough planes and crews. Bad weather > that day as well, resulted in missed targets (91BG), recalls (3rd AD had > some), and some very accurate bombing (the 381st did well here). > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > phone 250-537-5913 > "Please remember those who gave so much > for the freedom we enjoy this day." > **************************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "HeavyBombers.com" > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 3:55 PM > Subject: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > > Gents, > > > > I wonder how many PFF ships would fly on a maximum effort mission? And > where > > would they fly? Seems to me in the Lead Sqn, Lead Group, Lead Wing.... > > I am particularly interested in the January 11, 1944 mission to > > Oschersleben, Braunschweig and Halberstadt. 3 big targets (Aircraft > > Industry). > > I know 3AD had the 94th Flying lead with two PFF ships from the > 482BG.... > > Can anyone shine a light on the use of PFF ships on this level (wing, > AD)? > > Thanks you! > > Stevin Oudshoorn > > From tailgunnerson@uniserve.com Sat Feb 2 19:14:05 2002 From: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:14:05 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PFF References: <0.10005332.152557300-1463792638-1012143719@topica.com> <002301c1a759$9f7ecda0$f091c8cf@home> <002a01c1ac10$76958850$0200a8c0@Basher82> Message-ID: <002701c1ac1d$ee911880$e891c8cf@tailgunnerson> Hi Stevin, Don't worry about correcting me if I'm wrong. It hardly ever happens (the crowd lets out a groan). Seriously, the 482nd was the supplier of PFF ships. They lead navigators came all groups, but the 381st supplied a lot of them, and so did the 91st, and the 351st, etc. The reason for this is that they were there in Europe first, and had the training to lead either at squadron or group level. As the air war progressed, the squadrons depended less and less on the bombadier, and instead put a togglier in the same position. The togglier's job was to watch the lead ship (which was sometimes a PFF ship) and "toggle" his bombs when the lead plane did. A PFF navigator or bombadier was often pulled from his group and sent to a special training school. For a few days or weeks, they would be subjected to some very intense training, in the latest methods, such as: -GEE (ground electronic) Box, -radar, -H2X -special radio aids (short wave, VHF, long wave, IFF - identify friend or foe, Darky - emergency, QDM - compass course heading to base) , -buncher beacons With the proper training a lead navigator, whether part of the PFF or not, could lead his squadron, group, or division to within 25 feet of a ground target (GEE) So, depending on where the groups were going, and where the PFF crews were stationed, they could come from the 381st, stay with the 91st, which was leading the division.....or a 482nd crew might be assigned to lead the 94th, and stay with them for a few days even, because of weather, or something like that. So, you can see that it could take a few months of study for you or I to find out just who did what, and where, and when. Then, in the next month, a command from higher up could change the whole situation. For instance, if recognicance photos were studied over a period of time, and it was learned that for absolute precision, a visual method was the best for a certain type of target, like an airfield or factory, then someone who specialized in that type of navigation would be assigned to the lead group. Again, with the study of photos revealed that targets on a coastline could be hit accurately enough just by using radar (and this was true through a lot of 1943), then a PFF plane and crew might not be needed, as many navigators could hit a target along a coastline without too much trouble. If a joint exercise were carried out, such as the heavily industrialized Ruhr valley, 3 or 4 PFF crews could lead 3 or 4 squadronss along a fairly easy flight path, crossing 3 or 4 targets, with each squadron dropping on a different target. One could go up one step, and instead of squadrons, a whole group would drop on one target, and then a little further on, another group in the same CBW(combat wing) would hit another target. Sometimes the whole combat wing would hit the same target. The number of planes and crews changed very much from the start of the daylight bombing campaign, until the end of the war. More planes, more crews, more training.......and more PFF crews - they changed from day to day, as did the targets. I wasn't trying to be too specific the other day. If you want to contact some people from the 3rd AD, or the 94th BG, get in touch with this man: Mort Robinson robbie94@pacbell.net He is the membership chairman. I belong to the auxiliary assoc., but they are not near as active in things like the groups I belong to in the 1st AD. He may be able to help you out more. If you want to get in touch with someone about navigation, and PFF forces, then try: John Howland jhowland@sat.net Feel free to use my name to introduce yourself to them. Both men are more than happy to help out. John was a member of the 381stBG at Ridgewell. As his experience and training progressed, and as PFF, later became part of the 91stBG at Bassingbourn (his papers said he was still with the 381st), he took some of his training at Chelveston, home of the 305thBG.....see what I mean about this not being easy to pin down? On June 6th, John Howland and 17 other PFF groups took off from Bassingbourn, and scattered themselves amongst the various BGs of the 1st AD. John headed for the 381st that day. He had already flown on June 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Everything was building up for the big one : "it". Everyone knew what it meant the officers said to men all over England that evening, the 5th, that tomorrow was "it". D-Day. John led one group of 18 planes over Gold Beach and dropped through clouds using GEE. No one saw their targets that day, because of the cloud layers over the whole of the invasion area. This day they were lucky. The Germans sent up no fighters, and flak was scarce to none. The total effective bombers that day were 1622. Only 4 bombers were missing in action at the end of the day. 4852 tons of bombs were dropped. I've digressed a little bit, but I hope it helps you to understand a bit of the jobs of the PFF crews. If you want some suggestions for books, the best by far of how the air war progressed over time in all three ADs, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is : Mighty Eighth War Diary, by Roger Freeman. I hope this helps you out a little more, Stevin. My earlier post was written in a bit of a hurry. Cheers, mate. Gordy "tailgunnerson" BC, Can. "Please remember those who gave so much for the freedom we enjoy this day." From RoyAudry651@aol.com Mon Feb 4 04:42:26 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:42:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K Rations Message-ID: <55.21fbbad8.298f6b32@aol.com> A previous comment and question about K rations. As I recall, we flew a new B-17 from Lincoln Neb to England and we did have on board extra K rations. The plotted flight course took us over Newfoundland and to Laborador ( where we spent about 10 days weathering out a severe snow storm, snow was piled up to the second story windows of the wooden barracks), from there the flight was over the ice cap of Greenland. A number of planes did go down on the ice cap, so we had those rations plus additional gear for survival, including special dark goggles to protect against snow blindess if we did end up on the ice and snow. We did get feed in Goose Bay but the rations were good snacks. The chocolate bars when shaved into heated powdered milk made a good drink. The cheese and bacon was very good tasteing and a favorite snack. A point of interset to this--the instant coffee was package here in Minneapolis, MN, probably some of the other foods. This was a natural because the K ration was developed by a researcher here at the U. of Minnesota in a laboratory housed inside the football stadium. With tongue in cheek I say that's probably why they were such a favorite collectible item. LeRoy Christenson 359yj Sgdn From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Mon Feb 4 17:54:17 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:54:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: K Rations References: <20020204170534.9CEAE53AFA@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001001c1ada4$f84ca960$65bb9ace@mjpmtman> Thank you LeRoy.-- Never thought about making hot chocolate with powdered milk. It could have been done if we would have thought about it We used to get coffee & sugar. [100 lbs at a time.]. from the "back door" of the mess hall. I drank my coffee black but I seem to remember there was a box or can of powdered milk on the shelf in the reparable section shack. After the NAAFI pulled off the base we missed our "tea time" and set up our own in the reparable shack -- a "remodeled" wing panel box. Like you the cheese and bacon seemed to be the overall favorite. As the old song says "Thanks For The Memories"---Maurice Paulk +++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: RoyAudry651@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K Rations ...... the rations were good snacks. The chocolate bars when shaved into heated powdered milk made a good drink. The cheese and bacon was very good tasteing and a favorite snack.---- LeRoy Christenson 359yj Sgdn From RoyAudry651@aol.com Tue Feb 5 03:31:37 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:31:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K-Rations Message-ID: <70.174783cb.2990ac19@aol.com> I should have added further explaination, if it is of interest to former and/or present consumers of the meal in a box. The researcher was Dr. Ancel Keys (thus the designation K). His program worked with conscientious objectors who were put thru strenous work and exercise regimes and then fed special test diets to find which components would provide the needed calories, carbos, minerals, fats, protein to sustain a soldier under combat conditions--sans field kitchens or mess halls. also flyers on sustained flights ( this should make the above fit the format of the talk room) LeRoy C. From Thor542086@aol.com Tue Feb 5 03:44:32 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:44:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Col. Francies Gabreski Message-ID: <132.88bd38b.2990af20@aol.com> --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was one of the top U.S. Army fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew P-47's. Do any of you men remember him or ever meet him? This would be interesting to know. Terry Lucas --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit        Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was one of the top U.S. Army fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew P-47's. Do any of you men remember him or ever meet him? This would be interesting to know.

Terry Lucas --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary-- From fory@galesburg.net Wed Feb 6 00:17:56 2002 From: fory@galesburg.net (Fory Barton) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:17:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski Message-ID: <000c01c1aea3$bac72480$d79a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight = Training School at Lackland AFB. He was a great guy and nice to talk with. Sorry to hear of his demise. Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 = when he=20 visited the Preflight Training School at Lackland AFB.
He was a great guy and nice to talk=20 with.
Sorry to hear of his = demise.
 
Fory Barton
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 6 01:10:24 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:10:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More questions about "hung bombs" Message-ID: How frequent was the incidence of a bomb(s) getting hung up at the release point? What was the usual cause? How soon after forming up were the bombs armed? Who was responsible for arming them? What mechanism, or, combination of mechanisms were involved? Thank you . **** special thanks to Jack Rencher, Bill Heller, and Bill Runnels and others who responded to the question concerning " Optimum Altitude". Your remarks were very helpful to my understanding. Lloyd Grant 427th son. From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 6 01:26:58 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:26:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski In-Reply-To: <000c01c1aea3$bac72480$d79a46c6@computer> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those of you who may not have seen it, there is a two hour episode that is often repeated on both, PBS and the History Channel and narrated by “Gabby” Gabrenski telling his story about WWII. If you get a chance to see it, I recommend you cancel any other plans for the time it takes to watch it. *** me too; Mr. Barton Lloyd. Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight Training School at Lackland AFB. He was a great guy and nice to talk with. Sorry to hear of his demise. Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For = those of you who may not have seen it, there is a two hour episode that is often = repeated on both, PBS and the History Channel and narrated by = “Gabby”  Gabrenski telling his story = about WWII.  If you get a chance = to see it, I recommend you cancel any other plans for the time it takes to = watch it.  =

*** me = too;  Mr. = Barton

 

Lloyd.

 

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski

 

I met = Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight Training School = at Lackland AFB.

He = was a great guy and nice to talk with.<= /p>

Sorry = to hear of his demise.

 <= /p>

Fory = Barton<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800-- From lvburl6@msn.com Wed Feb 6 03:29:54 2002 From: lvburl6@msn.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:29:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabby, Great American Fighter Pilot Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding Col. Gabreski, I never knew him personally, but had coresponded by snail mail, and had s= poken to the Col. a few times, the most recent just about a month or so b= ack. He was a true gentleman. His war record confirms he was an efficien= t killer of the enemy as well. He got his start flying spitfires for the= Polish RAF squadron. The transition to the Thunderbolt was quite a stre= tch. He related to me the story of how the 56th FG decided to keep the P-= 47 even when the P-51 was made available to them. Bottom line the 56th wa= s very effective with the ol Jug, and why stir the pot. As many of you m= ay know the 56th was the highest scoring FG in the ETO, and Gabby was the= highest scoring of the group, and in fact in all the ETO. He had 31 kill= s in WWII, and 6.5 in F-86s in Korea. He has written a couple of books p= ublished by Shiffer, the most recent is really great. I count it a true= honor to have spoken with the man, and I am saddened at his passing. I = don't know how many of you 8th AF bomber guys may owe their life to a man= like Gabreski, but I imagine it's a few. Note I don't mean to take away= from your sacrifice, I owe my way of life to you all. Thanks, for what y= ou did. Lance Burrell, PS if you wanted to drop a note to his family his address is Col. Francis Gabreski 106 Ryder Ave. Huntington Station, NY 11746 ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding Col.= Gabreski,
I never knew him personally, but had coresponded by= snail mail, and had spoken to the Col. a few times, the most recent just= about a month or so back.  He was a true gentleman. His war record = confirms he was an efficient killer of the enemy as well.  He got hi= s start flying spitfires for the Polish RAF squadron.  The transitio= n to the Thunderbolt was quite a stretch. He related to me the story= of how the 56th FG decided to keep the P-47 even when the P-51 was made = available to them. Bottom line the 56th was very effective with the ol Ju= g, and why stir the pot.  As many of you may know the 56th was the h= ighest scoring FG in the ETO, and Gabby was the highest scoring of the gr= oup, and in fact in all the ETO. He had 31 kills in WWII, and 6.5 in = ;F-86s in Korea.  He has written a couple of books published by Shif= fer, the most recent is really great.   I count it a true honor= to have spoken with the man, and I am saddened at his passing. = ; I don't know how many of you 8th AF bomber guys may owe their life= to a man like Gabreski, but I imagine it's a few.  Note I don't mea= n to take away from your sacrifice, I owe my way of life to you all. Than= ks, for what you did.
Lance Burrell,
 
<= DIV>PS if you wanted to drop a note to his family his address is Col. Francis Gabreski
106 Ryder Ave.
Huntington = Station, NY 11746

------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940-- From jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 05:21:20 2002 From: jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com (jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:21:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction of new member Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am glad to be a member of the 303rd-talk list. I am the son of a WWII vet. My dad's name is Hubert Edward Miller. = He was the navigator for B-17 missions over Germany. He was a Capt. in = 1942. (His final rank was Lt. Col.). He was in the 358th group and was = part of Morales' Crew.=20 If anyone has any information on him or was part of the crew he was = on, please e-mail me at jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Thanks Jim Miller = =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am glad to be a member of the 303rd-talk = list.
 
     I am the son of a WWII = vet.  My=20 dad's name is Hubert Edward Miller.  He was the navigator for B-17 = missions=20 over Germany.  He was a Capt. in 1942.  (His final rank = was Lt.=20 Col.).  He was in the 358th group and was part of Morales'=20 Crew. 
 
     If anyone has any = information on=20 him or was part of the crew he was on, please e-mail me at jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com=
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 Thanks
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; =20 Jim Miller    
 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900-- From thollritt@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 22:56:40 2002 From: thollritt@yahoo.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:56:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Col. Francies Gabreski Message-ID: <20020206225640.64977.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> > > From: Thor542086@aol.com > > Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:44:32 EST > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Col. Francies Gabreski > > > > Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was > > one of the top U.S. Army > > fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew > > P-47's. Do any of you men > > remember him or ever meet him? This would be > > interesting to know. > > > > Terry Lucas Terry and All, Very sad news to hear that Col. Gabreski was amoung the 1000 WW II casualties Thusday. I had the honor of meeting Col."Gabby" Gabreski of the 56th Fighter Group at the Reading Pa. WW II weekend a few years back, he was very busy signing autographs and talking with visitors. I easedropped in while he was discussing how he was shot down and captured. He became a POW July 1944 after he buzzed Bassinhiem airfield near Koblenz a little too low, thats right,,, he shot himself down. Chewed up the field and struck a small knowl with his prop and bellied his P-47 in. On top of that he evaded capture for five days! His war end tally was 28 air victories and 3 on the ground. Todd- (303rd A-637) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From p51@1usa.com Thu Feb 7 14:45:47 2002 From: p51@1usa.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:45:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207094317.009fd5f0@home.1usa.com> I got this out of www.avweb.com Ed Frank "I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, AND I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN": One week ago, at 83 years of age, Col. Francis Gabreski passed on due to a heart attack. Gabreski flew a P-47 and had downed 31 enemy aircraft by the end of World War II. Flying an F-86 during the Korean conflict, he raised his tally to 37.5 air victories. By the time of his retirement from the Air Force in 1967, Gabreski had flown 266 combat missions, more than any other U.S. pilot, and was the highest-ranking living U.S. ace. If our new heroes shine, it is only in the shade cast by those who came before. In a new war, goodbye to an old war hero. From cooney@frontiernet.net Thu Feb 7 17:23:48 2002 From: cooney@frontiernet.net (cooney) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] war record Message-ID: <006401c1affc$34a91480$b2858542@frontiernet.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello=20 Was wondering if anyone in the 303rd would remember serving with my = father, James Cooney, in the S4 section 358th squadron while stationed = at Molesworth?=20 Thank you ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello =
 
Was wondering = if anyone in=20 the 303rd would remember serving with my father, James Cooney, in = the S4=20 section 358th squadron while stationed at Molesworth?
 
Thank=20 you
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 10 02:12:33 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:12:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When all the questions have been answered... Message-ID: There is a small round leather patch in the wall in front of me. On it is a painted symbol of a cartoon rabbit with its foot on a round bomb. It is the symbol of the 427th Sq. of the 303rd BG ( H ). The man that wore it is long since "gone home". He was very proud to have served with your outfit. I can tell that, because he flew two tours of combat. The last one was with a different Group. What he cherished was his memories of the guys he flew with when he was in the 303rd. As his son, I am the son of every man that served in the 303rd. I am lucky; I have many fathers now, and good memories of all of them. This, in it's small way, is a manner of telling you all, that I will never forget. "Thank you" does not come close enough. ( Gary, please let this one pass. I owe you. You call it, I'll pay it) Lloyd Grant Son of 2nd Lt. Lawrence H. Grant ( Nav.) 427th Sq. 303rd BG (H) Molesworth, England Donald Stockton crew, "Joe BTFSPLK II" # 42-24610 From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 10 06:25:55 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:25:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] When all the questions have been answered... Message-ID: <66.1bcd0cda.29976c73@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd: Your last letter touched me. I didn't know about your Father. Thanks for telling us. You can ask all the bloody questions you want to. If I can't answer them, Harry Gobrecht or Bill Heller can Very Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From sakre1@yahoo.com Mon Feb 11 23:49:09 2002 From: sakre1@yahoo.com (sue akre) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:49:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <20020211234909.60293.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> i was trying to find my grandfather's infr when he was in the service. clifford leroy akre of the 303rd b-17 doper?????????? i do not know what all thats means. can you help??????????? suzanne akre __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From schnauzman@mindspring.com Tue Feb 12 19:48:39 2002 From: schnauzman@mindspring.com (Karen & Elizabeth Bailey-Summers) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:48:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attempting to locate old crew members Message-ID: <001c01c1b3fe$44fbc3e0$011656d1@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I have enjoyed reading the talk messages, and the whole site! You = have provided me with an abundance of information, and admiration. I am = hoping someone might be able to assist me now. I am attempting to = locate these crew members (for my father to get in touch with): T/Sgt Sidney T. Hardaway S/Sgt Ralph Boyd Adams S/Sgt Earl R. Howard S/Sgt Jack L. Perryman T/Sgt Robert G. York 1Lt. Robert P. Dwyer 2Lt. Lawrence C. Farrell If anybody knows how to get in touch with these men, I would appreciate = that information. Sincerely, Elizabeth Bailey-Summers ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!  I have enjoyed reading the = talk messages,=20 and the whole site!  You have provided me with an abundance of = information,=20 and admiration.  I am hoping someone might be able to assist me = now. =20 I am attempting to locate these crew members  (for my father to get = in=20 touch with):
  T/Sgt Sidney T. = Hardaway
  S/Sgt Ralph Boyd = Adams
  S/Sgt Earl R. = Howard
  S/Sgt Jack L. = Perryman
  T/Sgt Robert G. = York
  1Lt. Robert P. = Dwyer
  2Lt. Lawrence C. = Farrell
If anybody knows how to get in touch = with these=20 men, I would appreciate that information.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth = Bailey-Summers
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Tue Feb 12 20:21:47 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:21:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE Message-ID: <000601c1b402$e635bbe0$0ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Sue -- Don't know how much this will help BUT In checking the personnel roster I find this information --Clifford Leroy Akre - 444th Sub-depot [A.D. = Air Depot] = T/sgt = ser.#17025331 MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. onee of them might have known your grandfather.The sheet metal metal worked in the Hangar and the paint & dope shop [I Believe] was in the hangar too. .With Gary Moncur's permission I will give you the E-mail of Robert Petersen, a sheet metal man living in CA. I was in the 444th - Air Corp Supply, as part of my job I probably issued paint & dope to his shop. From his serial number I can tell you that he enlisted from the 7th Corps area - Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska & Missouri [the first two digits of my serial no. are 17..... also] Maurice Paulk - in Nebraska From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 13 13:53:11 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:53:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gunners victories Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missions completed were depicted by bombs painted on the forward section of the aircraft. A question has arisen as to whether or not a symbol of some sort was painted on the aircraft to record a victory over an attacking enemy plane. If so, where on the plane would aerial combat scores be represented? I am also curious about the most number of enemy planes downed by single 303rd Bomber. Does anyone know the answer to that one? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Missions completed were = depicted by bombs painted on the forward section of the aircraft.  A question has arisen as to = whether or not a symbol of some sort was painted on the aircraft to record a = victory over an attacking enemy plane.  = If so, where on the plane would aerial combat scores be represented?  I am also curious about the = most number of enemy planes downed by single 303rd Bomber. Does anyone = know the answer to that one?

 

Thanks.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760-- From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 15:31:01 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:31:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gunners victories Message-ID: <99.21beead0.299be0b5@aol.com> Lloyd, As far as I know, no symbols were painted on Bombers for the planes shot down nor were any records kept on the number of planes shot down by each bomber. The reasons for this are very simple. We flew in formations of several planes (usually 12, 13 or 16) When we were attacked several, perhaps all the planes fired at the attacking fighters. Several gunners on each aircraft usually fired at the same fighter. B17's shot down more enemy aircraft than any other allied plane, BUT because of the above, there was really no way to tell which gunner or which airplane in the formation actually shot down the enemy fighter. 12 planes and 36 gunners were shooting at him and he went down and most of them might be hitting him, how would anyone know whose bullet actually killed the pilot or blew a hole in his carburetor? Now to answer your question. NO. No one know the answer to that one and NO one that was really there wants to know. Best wishes Lloyd, Jack From wejones@megalink.net Wed Feb 13 16:43:13 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE In-Reply-To: <000601c1b402$e635bbe0$0ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. Maurice. I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- 17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. Just curious. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From bagnoli2@yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 19:33:54 2002 From: bagnoli2@yahoo.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:33:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020213170112.486C153974@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20020213193354.19926.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> As to the painting of symbols depicting downed enemy aircraft, I have one point for clarification. I've seen photos of planes with swastikas painted both on the noses and near the gunports. Did these represent downed aircraft? If not, what did they represent? Chuck Golden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 22:00:13 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:00:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs Message-ID: <125.bd79ae9.299c3bed@aol.com> Chuck ( And Lloyd) To clarify my previous letter. I was only talking about my own observations on Bombers. Specifically B17s. Lots of fighter type planes with one pilot knew when they shot down an enemy and usually had photo's to prove it. This was not the case when many gunners from one or more B17s were shooting at the same enemy. Fighters main job was shooting down airplanes so they painted swastika's on their planes when they got one. Bombers main job was dropping bombs on targets so we painted bombs on our birds when we dropped them I suppose any gunner could paint whatever he wanted to on his turret or near his muzzles but I don't think it was common practice. We flew to many different birds during our 35 or so missions. Best Wishes, Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 22:17:45 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE Message-ID: <44.1b022cee.299c4009@aol.com> Maurice. Dope is used on fabric planes because it shrinks the fabric, makes it tight and takes out all the winkles. It takes several coats and can be tinted different colors. Some metal planes had fabric control surfaces. I don't remember any on B17s but some early models could have or I could have forgotten. Some early Cessna's were metal and had Fabric coated wings. Some cars are metal and have no wings at all. They are very hard to get off the ground and then just for short flights. They put their dope in the drivers but they still have a very short range. Jack From tailgunnerson@uniserve.com Thu Feb 14 08:06:35 2002 From: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:06:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were any of you fellas ever trained at or stationed at Minter Field? I am looking for info on when things became activated, and what kind of training took place there. If you were ever based there, would you mind telling me what you remember? Thanks, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 ph. 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IiMIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAgAOAAAABQAAAAQA8gAB A5AGAGwMAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB AAAADQAAAE1pbnRlciBGaWVsZAAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwbUuaynAEflGINMR1ps2/MAB3G5I AAACAR0MAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlRBSUxHVU5ORVJTT05AVU5JU0VSVkUuQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAG DgAehUwutcEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAtya9kmr8ERvknmKtP8lUDCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQ AQAAAIsIAACHCAAA0BQAAExaRnU0ImeWAwAKAHJjcGcxMjVyMgxgYzEDMAEHC2BukQ4QMDMzDxZm ZQ+STwH3AqQDYwIAY2gKwHOEZXQC0XBycTIAAJIqCqFubxJQIDAB0IUB0DYPoDA1MDQUIfMB0BQQ NH0HbQKDAFAD1PsR/xMLYhPhFFATshj0FNCTBxMCgzI4EY4yMxphRRdyIAdtIENFGgQ5Txp/FEAb 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<14e.8ed8c98.299d4574@aol.com> Gordon; The undersigned went through Basic training at Minter Field Bakersfield California during the late summer of 1943. We trained in Vultee BT13's. My Instructor was Lt Dean P. Gilmore. He taught me more about flying and being a damn good pilot than any instructor I ever had. The head of the mess hall was a civilian named Cavanough. I'm not sure of the spelling. The food there was the finest I've ever had before or since. We started instrument and formation training there and continued our aerobatics. The BT13 had a fixed gear, 450 HP radial engine, two position Hamilton prop and was nicknamed quite appropriately a Vultee Vibrator. The early models were wood behind the rear cockpit. Now you know everything I know and everything you know so you are smarter than I. Am. They were drilling for oil nearby. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From dss97@aber.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 18:07:44 2002 From: dss97@aber.ac.uk (David Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:07:44 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Gunner's victories In-Reply-To: <20020213170112.A0C2F53981@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214180527.00ab86c0@pophost.aber.ac.uk> --=====================_19731335==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The painting of symbols on aircraft may not have been common in the USAAF but in RAF Bomber Command it was. Crews that managed to shoot down German fighters were accorded great prestige largely due to the near impossibility of such a feat at night and with the inadequate .303 machine guns used David Smith --=====================_19731335==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

The painting of symbols on aircraft may not have been common in the USAAF but in RAF Bomber Command it was.  Crews that managed to shoot down German fighters were accorded great prestige largely due to the near impossibility of such a feat at night and with the inadequate .303 machine guns used

David Smith --=====================_19731335==_.ALT-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Thu Feb 14 19:47:59 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:47:59 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R Message-ID: <002201c1b590$82504020$3fbb9ace@mjpmtman> I am not informed enough to know if the 17 had fabric control surfaces. Never paid that much attention when I was looking them over. I based my statement on the fact that I saw a Fort at close range. [on its return from a raid] It had only about 1 or 2 feet of covering on the lower part of control surface of the vertical stab. I would have sworn it was fabric!! THAT memory is some 56 years old though.. Am familiar with dope as I built a few rice paper covered rubber powered airplanes that had to be doped --- smelled like banana oil. Bill --the paint your are referring to I believe was the green camo on the 17. [ They finally went to no paint -- as you know] believe it was a chrome based paint and did add an appreciable amount of weight. I heard that the green on the Lucky Strike cigarette packages were made with the same formula and therefore Lucky Strike went to a white package. Seems to me I heard that it soaked up the heat and increased the weight--Sound plausible?????????????? Ya know??? my memory seems to play tricks on me!!! I may be aging BUT I am not getting any older.---------Maurice Paulk From shank1@gis.net Thu Feb 14 21:12:13 2002 From: shank1@gis.net (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:12:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #508 - 5 msgs References: <20020214170105.6DDDF539C8@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001901c1b59c$81802870$0000a398@SHANK> Re: Fabric covered controls. The elevators on the B-17 were fabric covered. ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #508 - 5 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: CLIFFORD AKRE (Bill Jones) > 2. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs (Chuck Golden) > 3. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs (Jprencher@aol.com) > 4. Re: CLIFFORD AKRE (Jprencher@aol.com) > 5. Minter Field (Gordy Alton) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE > > > > On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > > > > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. > > Maurice. > I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- > 17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots > that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. > A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- > metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 > would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS > might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got > transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? > Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on > weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about > how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they > used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very > strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. > > Just curious. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:33:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Chuck Golden > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs > > As to the painting of symbols depicting downed enemy > aircraft, I have one point for clarification. I've > seen photos of planes with swastikas painted both on > the noses and near the gunports. Did these represent > downed aircraft? If not, what did they represent? > > Chuck Golden > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:00:13 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs > To: bagnoli2@yahoo.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > > Chuck ( And Lloyd) > To clarify my previous letter. I was only talking about my own > observations on Bombers. Specifically B17s. Lots of fighter type planes > with one pilot knew when they shot down an enemy and usually had photo's t o > prove it. This was not the case when many gunners from one or more B17s were > shooting at the same enemy. Fighters main job was shooting down airplanes so > they painted swastika's on their planes when they got one. Bombers main job > was dropping bombs on targets so we painted bombs on our birds when we > dropped them I suppose any gunner could paint whatever he wanted to on his > turret or near his muzzles but I don't think it was common practice. We flew > to many different birds during our 35 or so missions. > Best Wishes, > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:45 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE > To: wejones@megalink.net, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Maurice. Dope is used on fabric planes because it shrinks the fabric, makes > it tight and takes out all the winkles. It takes several coats and can be > tinted different colors. Some metal planes had fabric control surfaces. I > don't remember any on B17s but some early models could have or I could have > forgotten. Some early Cessna's were metal and had Fabric coated wings. Some > cars are metal and have no wings at all. They are very hard to get off the > ground and then just for short flights. They put their dope in the drivers > but they still have a very short range. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Gordy Alton" > To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk List" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:06:35 -0800 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Were any of you fellas ever trained at or stationed at Minter Field? I am > looking for info on when things became activated, and what kind of training > took place there. If you were ever based there, would you mind telling me > what you remember? > Thanks, > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 > ph. 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those > who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." > ************************************* > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 > Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; > name="winmail.dat" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="winmail.dat" > > eJ8+IiMIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy > b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAgAOAAAABQAAAAQA8gAB > A5AGAGwMAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB > AAAADQAAAE1pbnRlciBGaWVsZAAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwbUuaynAEflGINMR1ps2/MAB3G5I > AAACAR0MAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlRBSUxHVU5ORVJTT05AVU5JU0VSVkUuQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAG > DgAehUwutcEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAtya9kmr8ERvknmKtP8lUDCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQ > AQAAAIsIAACHCAAA0BQAAExaRnU0ImeWAwAKAHJjcGcxMjVyMgxgYzEDMAEHC2BukQ4QMDMzDxZm > ZQ+STwH3AqQDYwIAY2gKwHOEZXQC0XBycTIAAJIqCqFubxJQIDAB0IUB0DYPoDA1MDQUIfMB0BQQ > 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AABlAAAAV0VSRUFOWU9GWU9VRkVMTEFTRVZFUlRSQUlORURBVE9SU1RBVElPTkVEQVRNSU5URVJG > SUVMRD9JQU1MT09LSU5HRk9SSU5GT09OV0hFTlRISU5HU0JFQ0FNRUFDVElWQVRFRAAAAAAbNg== > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20-- > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From KERRB1468@aol.com Thu Feb 14 20:52:41 2002 From: KERRB1468@aol.com (KERRB1468@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:52:41 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fabric surfaces on Forts Message-ID: <115.c970228.299d7d99@aol.com> I believe ALL control surfaces (ailerons, rudder, & elevator) were fabric coated. I recall very vividly having damaged an aileron when taxiing and seeing the fabric fluttering in the breeze. Paperwork following that incident helped to imprint memory in the brain! Bob From wejones@megalink.net Thu Feb 14 21:38:43 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:38:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R In-Reply-To: <002201c1b590$82504020$3fbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: On 14 Feb 02, at 13:47, Maurice Paulk wrote: > I am not informed enough to know if the 17 had fabric control surfaces. > Never paid that much attention when I was looking them over. I based my > statement on the fact that I saw a Fort at close range. [on its return > from a raid] It had only about 1 or 2 feet of covering on the lower part of > control surface of the vertical stab. I would have sworn it was fabric!! > THAT memory is some 56 years old though.. You are right. I pulled up the B-17 service manual I have on computer, and it verifies that the rudder, elevator, and I think ailerons were fabric covered. Interesting. I would have never guessed. I've walked all around and touched, the Collins B-17 and the Aluminum Overcast B-17, and never noticed the fabric. Now, the question is WHY? Is it a weight thing? Ie would it require too much force from the pilot to move a heavy metal control surface? Or was it a ease of repair thing? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From junned@humboldt1.com Thu Feb 14 22:42:42 2002 From: junned@humboldt1.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:42:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story Message-ID: <002301c1b5a8$fbdbbe20$1a2664d8@computer> Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. That was the ship we flew for our first 13 missions.. It was named for our pilot Alexander Strickland and I quite clearly remember when the art was painted. Went on R&R to Blackpool for a week and on our return to Molesworth learned StricNine had been shot down. Were then assigned to Vicious Virgin for most of the remainder of missions. Ed Lamme Bombardier 427 Sqdn From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 23:22:03 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:22:03 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R Message-ID: The B-17 did indeed have fabric covered control surfaces - ailerons, elevator and rudder. Why I don't know, but the I did look into this once. Later variants may have been all metal. Two more words about dope - water resistence. As far as victory symbols, each Bomb Group seems to have had its own way of doing things, just like nose art. Some Group C.O.s found nose of the unclad female form obscene and outlawed same. I've seen victory marking by crew position, as well as other personalized things such as sweet hearts names, etc. also by crew positions. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 23:30:24 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:30:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, I want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when it dried, it cost the ship airspeed, again, I think it was something like five miles an hours. The 8th AF used 867,564,117 Imp. Gal. during the course of the war. Even a slight savings in fuel economy would have saved fuel for other missions or other branches. Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 > > > >On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > > > > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. > >Maurice. > I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- >17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots >that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. > A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- >metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 >would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS >might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got >transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? > Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on >weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about >how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they >used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very >strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. > >Just curious. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From glm@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 15 02:59:00 2002 From: glm@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:59:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story In-Reply-To: <002301c1b5a8$fbdbbe20$1a2664d8@computer> Message-ID: <3C6C1704.5454.18DD818@localhost> > Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 > CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially > surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. Ed, Glad you like the CD and the photo. The StricNine nose art is one of my favorites. Also on the inside cover of the CD is a classic photo of Knockout Dropper. I hadn't noticed before, but she does have 2 swastikas painted on her nose. A similar photo showing the swastikas is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/na-knockout.jpg I'm pretty darned proud of the CD! Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 01:09:43 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:09:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 Message-ID: <17d.396e0f9.299db9d7@aol.com> --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary-- From wejones@megalink.net Fri Feb 15 00:08:01 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, I > want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when it > dried, it cost the ship airspeed, That's probably the same thing I read, that I was referring to having read some where about the weight. I have heard some accounts about polishing or waxing B-17s to make them smoother to get more airspeed, but I can't imagine with all that was going on, that there would be time to do something like that. Seems like it would have been a full time job just keeping them running. Did anyone here polish their planes? I'm not sure how many of you have had a closeup look at the Aluminum Overcast B-17, but it has a strange looking surface. It seems to be a composite material painted to look like aluminum. I heard an explanation for that once, but I lost the message, and have forgotten the explanation. However now, with the parallel discussion about the fabric control surfaces, I'm wondering if I came to the conclusion that it wasn't aluminum by looking at one of the elevators or something. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 04:41:53 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:41:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fabric surfaces on Forts Message-ID: <12e.c879409.299deb91@aol.com> Bob, You are absolutely right. I was wrong. I got to thinking about that after I went to bed last night and all the control surfaces were fabric, sewed on taped and doped. so we would have needed a dope and fabric MOS to repair them. Sorry about that. Jack From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 13:47:57 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal Message-ID: <30.22328a6f.299e6b8d@aol.com> --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know who or what determined what planes would be painted and what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the war when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal? Terry Lucas --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know  who or what determined what planes would be painted and what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the war when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal?
Terry Lucas --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary-- From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 16:27:46 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:27:46 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: <4f.18add7cf.299e9102@aol.com> Lets say paint weighs 6 pounds per gal. 600 pounds would be 100 gallons, I wouldn't think it would take 100 gallons to paint a B17. Even with 2 coats like a coat of zinc chromate primer first. If you had time to let it dry before you took it on a mission it might weigh a lot less and be less sticky. I don't remember of ever seeing a polished one in combat. Some 4 star General private plane yes maybe. Bill Heller you were right and I was wrong again. I went out to Falcon Field early this morning and measured the distance over the top of the wing. Center of leading edge to trailing edge about half way between the engines on the right wing. It was 106 inches. Same measurement on the bottom side was 103 inches. I do not believe this is enough to make a significant difference. Hence I now agree with you on B17s.(Not some other wings) Getting a B17 on the step is a myth. In my defense. I could gain nearly 10 miles per hour in my Bonanzas and Baron. Best Wishes, Jack PS There was fabric on the elevators, rudder and ailerons. I don't know about the seats. The back door were locked. I couldn't get in the front door anymore without a ladder and some very strong buddy to push. From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:26:23 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:26:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story Message-ID: Gary: Looking at that pic of Knockout Dropper, it looks like the Swastikas belong to the bombardier. Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: glm@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:59:00 -0700 > > > Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 > > CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially > > surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. > >Ed, >Glad you like the CD and the photo. The StricNine nose art is >one of my favorites. Also on the inside cover of the CD is a >classic photo of Knockout Dropper. I hadn't noticed before, >but she does have 2 swastikas painted on her nose. A similar >photo showing the swastikas is here: >http://www.303rdbga.com/na-knockout.jpg >I'm pretty darned proud of the CD! > >Regards, > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:16:30 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:16:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: Jack: The good ol' Vultee "Vibrator." A friend of mine flew this bird during training and had an awful time doing night landings in it because the canopy reflected the runway lights and gave him vertigo. Did you experience this? Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:53:08 EST > >Gordon; > The undersigned went through Basic training at Minter Field >Bakersfield >California during the late summer of 1943. We trained in Vultee BT13's. My >Instructor was Lt Dean P. Gilmore. He taught me more about flying and being >a >damn good pilot than any instructor I ever had. The head of the mess hall >was >a civilian named Cavanough. I'm not sure of the spelling. The food there >was >the finest I've ever had before or since. We started instrument and >formation >training there and continued our aerobatics. The BT13 had a fixed gear, 450 >HP radial engine, two position Hamilton prop and was nicknamed quite >appropriately a Vultee Vibrator. The early models were wood behind the rear >cockpit. Now you know everything I know and everything you know so you are >smarter than I. Am. They were drilling for oil nearby. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:38:56 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: Bill: I can't imagine with wartime conditions ground crews would polish B-17s, maybe for a VIP or something like that, but for everyday combat, ground crews had a zillion other more important details to tend to. I've seen Aluminum Overcast too, and Sentimental Journey, both in natural finish. The aluminum on both look the same and appears to be the kind used during the war. As far as the why for fabric control surfaces, you may be right about the added weight of aluminum making it harder for the pilots to control. Seems like a logical explanation. Another explanation might be that there were an abundance of dope and fabric workers producing war planes in the 20s and 30s and because the ailerons, rudders and elevators were subassemblies to production, perhaps it was easier for these dope and fabric technicians to produce these. Most control surfaces on bombers and fighters were dope and fabric. I'd sure like a definitive answer if anyone knows. Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Paint >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:01 -0500 > > > > In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, >I > > want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when >it > > dried, it cost the ship airspeed, > >That's probably the same thing I read, that I was referring to having >read some where about the weight. I have heard some accounts >about polishing or waxing B-17s to make them smoother to get >more airspeed, but I can't imagine with all that was going on, that >there would be time to do something like that. Seems like it would >have been a full time job just keeping them running. Did anyone >here polish their planes? > I'm not sure how many of you have had a closeup look at the >Aluminum Overcast B-17, but it has a strange looking surface. It >seems to be a composite material painted to look like aluminum. I >heard an explanation for that once, but I lost the message, and >have forgotten the explanation. However now, with the parallel >discussion about the fabric control surfaces, I'm wondering if I >came to the conclusion that it wasn't aluminum by looking at one >of the elevators or something. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 19:04:39 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:04:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: <87.179bbd4c.299eb5c7@aol.com> Kevin, I have no remembrance of vertigo doing night landings in a BT13 or any other airplane for that matter. One of the most important things an instrument pilot MUST learn is to COMPLETELY ignore vertigo. If you don't it very likely will be the last thing you ever don't do. Especially if you are flying in jolly old England. I strongly suspect that is what happened to the Kennedy boy who went into the Long Island Sound a while back. Jack From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:45:10 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:45:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal Message-ID: Terry: I'll take a shot at this question. I have Roger Freeman's "Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry," which is excellent by the way. Early in the war, Forts in the ETO were olive drab on top, and aquamarine blue on the bottom for camaflouge. I believe most E and F Models were painted this way and early production run models of the G. Someone higher up finally realized the camaflouge paint did no good, hell, with a thousands heavies throwing contrails, the paint was useless. So the painting stopped. This is a simplified explantion, but buy the book. Like all of Freeman's books, it is the Bible on the subject. Kevin >From: Thor542086@aol.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:57 EST > >Does anyone know who or what determined what planes would be painted and >what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, >but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the >war >when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal? >Terry Lucas _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From wejones@megalink.net Fri Feb 15 19:23:47 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:23:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill: I can't imagine with wartime conditions ground crews would polish > B-17s, Perhaps it is one of those old "pilots" tales, told tounge in cheek. But I heard a couple pilots say they flew a few mph faster because of the polish job done on their plane. I guess I'm a bit too gullable. > I've > seen Aluminum Overcast too, and Sentimental Journey, both in natural finish. > The aluminum on both look the same and appears to be the kind used during > the war. I have a piece of unpainted B-17 skin from a crashed B-17, and it was nothing like what I saw close-up on Aluminum Overcast, however as I mentioned, when I went up close to inspect, I did so near the rear elevator, so it is very likely that what I was looking at was the fabric control surface painted to look like aluminum. At that time I thought that everything on the outside was supposed to be aluminum. Next time I tour the plane I'll look closer at other parts of the plane. When I toured the Collins plane, it looked like real aluminum, just painted, but the Overcast looked plastic to me. I must have been looking at the fabric surfaces. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Fri Feb 15 19:55:43 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:55:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver & camo Message-ID: <000801c1b65a$c164b8c0$3ebb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TERRY LUCAS -- The presence of silver & camo 17s in a formation I = bellieve is do to a transition period. When they started building silver = ones they would replace the camos but not all at one time.. I'm not = sure rather the Fs were replaced with silver Fs or not.. Seems to me it = was the silver Gs that started the transition. Any body know - Jack you seem to have a better memory than me and more = contact with the "birds" too.--Maurice Paulk -{ the mouthy one] By the = way did all the camo green ships have blue bellies?????????? ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

TERRY LUCAS -- The presence of silver = & camo=20 17s in a formation I bellieve is do to a transition period. When they = started=20 building silver ones they would replace the  camos but not all at = one=20 time.. I'm not sure rather the Fs were replaced with silver Fs or not.. = Seems to=20 me it was the silver Gs that started the transition.
 
Any body know  - Jack you seem to = have a=20 better memory than me and more contact with the "birds" too.--Maurice = Paulk -{=20 the mouthy one] By the way did all the camo green ships have blue=20 bellies??????????
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880-- From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 21:52:42 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:52:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: bare metal Message-ID: <135.975fcec.299edd2a@aol.com> --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for their responses to the question to bare metal. All your explanations make sense to me. I have heard before that the bare metal increases a planes speed. Terry --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for their responses to the question to bare metal. All your explanations make sense to me. I have heard before that the bare metal increases a planes speed. Terry --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary-- From lmmtsm@supanet.com Sat Feb 16 14:46:58 2002 From: lmmtsm@supanet.com (lmmtsm) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:46:58 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] attack on B17 Message-ID: <000d01c1b6f8$ca2ee4a0$3ab06fd4@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello from England A documentary shown on TV this week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang = fighter, obviously highlighted its bomber escort work,mainly B17's.There = was stock footage of a german fighter attacking a B17 from the rear, = this has been shown many times before but only the final stages of the = attack.The footage on this this programme apparently showed all of the = attack, which must have been heading towards 30 seconds in duration. I = am certain you must have seen this film yourselves and I am wondering if = the B17 was ever identified. My point in question being that the crew are not returning any fire = whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the tail gunner may of = course be out action already but the ball turret shows no movement and = as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are totally still.Finally = an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts to lower,it = was in bare metal finish. I would appreciate any information on this or could you put me in = contact with any other organisation who maybe able to help =20 Kind Regards Stephen Moran ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello from England
 
A documentary shown on = TV  this=20 week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang fighter, obviously highlighted its = bomber=20 escort work,mainly B17's.There was stock footage of a german = fighter=20 attacking a B17 from the rear, this has been shown many times before but = only=20 the final stages of the attack.The footage on this this = programme=20 apparently showed all of the attack, which must have been heading = towards=20 30 seconds in duration. I am certain you must have seen this = film=20 yourselves and I am wondering if the B17 was ever = identified.
My point in question being that the = crew are not=20 returning any fire whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the = tail=20 gunner may of course be out action  already but the ball = turret=20 shows no movement and as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are = totally=20 still.Finally an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts = to=20 lower,it was in bare metal finish.
I would appreciate any information on = this or could=20 you put me in contact with any other organisation who maybe able to = help  
 
Kind Regards
 
Stephen=20 Moran
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 17 01:04:01 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:04:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends, At the risk of belaboring a subject, I would like to ask a few more questions with regard to the middle section of the B-17s that you flew. I believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of the plane was segregated from the forward section where assigned crew positions were: Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. Behind the “bomb-bay, (or “cargo” section) were stations for the Radio Operator, Ball Turret g., two Waist g.’s, and the Tail g. If I have this correctly, no one was assigned permanently to man the Bomb-bay. The responsibility seems to have been somewhat universally designated. An incredibly narrow cat-walk over the bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit area, and visa-versa. ( I have personally had an opportunity to traverse this constipated little walkway while visiting the “ Aluminum Overcast “ while she was parked on the ground; and at best I can describe the experience as claustrophobic. ) My questions follow: 1. Were the bomb-bays hydraulically, or electrically operated? 2. Besides the bombardier, who else was able to operate the bomb-bay doors? 3. Was there a manual over-ride similar to the one that could lower the landing gear? 4. How were the bomb shackles released ( and what might have caused them to malfunction---resulting in the occurrence of a “hung bomb(s) ) ? 5. And, lastly, in the unfortunate necessity of a bail out, was there a practiced procedure for exiting the aircraft thru the bomb-bay? I hope these are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in the archives, but so far I have not been able to find the answers to these questions. Thank you, fellows for your incredible patience. Lloyd Grant 427th son. (’42-’43) ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Friends,

 

At the risk of belaboring = a subject, I would like to ask a few more questions with regard to the = middle section of the B-17s that you flew.  I believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of = the plane was segregated from the forward section where assigned crew = positions were: Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. = Behind the “bomb-bay, (or “cargo” section) were stations for = the Radio Operator, Ball Turret g., two Waist g.’s, and the Tail g.  If I have this correctly, no one was assigned = permanently to man the Bomb-bay.  The responsibility seems to have been somewhat universally designated.  An incredibly narrow cat-walk = over the bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit area, = and visa-versa.  ( I have = personally had an opportunity to traverse this constipated little walkway while = visiting the “ Aluminum Overcast “ while she was parked on the = ground;  and at best I can describe the experience as claustrophobic. )

 

My questions = follow:

 

  1. Were the bomb-bays = hydraulically, or electrically operated?
  2. Besides the bombardier, who = else was able to operate the bomb-bay = doors?
  3. Was there a manual = over-ride similar to the one that could lower the landing = gear?
  4. How were the bomb shackles released ( and what might have caused them to = malfunction---resulting in the occurrence of a “hung bomb(s)  ) ?
  5. And, lastly, in the = unfortunate necessity of a bail out, was there a practiced procedure for = exiting the aircraft thru the bomb-bay?

  

I hope = these are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in the = archives, but so far I have not been able to find the answers to these questions.  =

 

Thank = you, fellows for your incredible = patience.

 

Lloyd = Grant

427th son. (’42-’43)

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0-- From Fordlauer@aol.com Sun Feb 17 03:10:40 2002 From: Fordlauer@aol.com (Fordlauer@aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:10:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Paint vs. Bare Metal Message-ID: --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Based on the many things I have read regarding some B-17s being painted and others being in bare aluminum, I offer this.... It seems that the decision was made in early 1944 during production of the G (chin guns) model. It seems that there was no single reason alone for leaving the paint off. Cost and hours necessary to paint them was a factor for sure. The push was on to get new planes over there as fast as possible. Also, the B-29 program was gearing up, and I guess it was determined that the B-17s would be obsolete after the war- hence no need for long term corrosion protection. I have also read that some felt that sending shiny airplanes over Europe was a bit of boastfulness as in "we are not hiding from the Luftwaffe." I am sure weight was a factor also. Weight has always been a factor on airplanes. An interesting extra note here. I once read that in late 1944 a few B-29s flew to England. It was never actually intended to deploy them there for bombing Germany. Rather they were sent to "encourage" Germany to give up the fight, as they were so much bigger than the B-17 and carried more bombs. The small piece I read said the B-29s stayed in England for a short time, but did not say whether or not the B-29s actually flew over Germany. Does anyone know or has anyone heard about this?...........................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Based on the many things I have read regarding some B-17s being painted and others being in bare aluminum, I offer this....      It seems that the decision was made in early 1944 during production of the G (chin guns) model. It seems that there was no single reason alone for leaving the paint off. Cost and hours necessary to paint them was a factor for sure. The push was on to get new planes over there as fast as possible. Also, the B-29 program was gearing up, and I guess it was determined that the B-17s would be obsolete after the war- hence no need for long term corrosion protection. I have also read that some felt that sending shiny airplanes over Europe was a bit of boastfulness as in "we are not hiding from the Luftwaffe." I am sure weight was a factor also. Weight has always been a factor on airplanes. An interesting extra note here. I once read that in late 1944 a few B-29s flew to England. It was never actually intended to deploy them there for bombing Germany. Rather they were sent to "encourage" Germany to give up the fight, as they were so much bigger than the B-17 and carried more bombs. The small piece I read said the B-29s stayed in England for a short time, but did not say whether or not the B-29s actually flew over Germany. Does anyone know or has anyone heard about this?...........................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 17 03:21:50 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:21:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 In-Reply-To: <20020217023513.JZFM11755.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Bill, your information helps a lot. Thank you. Your first three answers clear up quite a bit of ignorance on my part. Unfortunately, I still fail to grasp an understanding of questions, #4 & #5. I am dense, but I guarantee you, once I get it; I'll not forget it.The next time I get the opportunity to tour the interior of a B-17, much of what you guys are trying to explain will make a whole lot better sense. Alas, the opportunities for me to do so are rarer these days (for me) than they were for you guys a "few" years back. It has been said many times, but I hope you all never get bored with hearing it, " Thank you for what you did, and for what you have done; and what you are doing now. Lloyd Grant Hells Angels' son. -----Original Message----- From: b.runnels@att.net [mailto:b.runnels@att.net] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 9:35 PM To: Lloyd J H Grant Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Lloyd my response will be in the order of questions. 1. electrically 2. pilot and flight engineer had access to emergency release handles. One located in cockpit and the other at the forward end of the cat walk. 3. yes-crank them down manually. Crank handles and extensions stowed on aft bulkhead of radio compartment. 4. an electrical impulse through the "bomb release units" which manually controlled the shackles. 5. bombay was a designated exit area in time of an emergency. The pilots, flight engineer and radio operator normally used this area. Hope this helps....Bill Runnels, bombardier From RoyAudry651@aol.com Sun Feb 17 04:27:10 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:27:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re Paint / polish or waxing Message-ID: <159.91fb699.29a08b1e@aol.com> not being a pilot nor a gorund crew chief I would not know if waxing-polsihing either painted or bare aluminum planes was a normal operations procedure, but I do know it must have been on somebody's mind. After the closure of Molesworth, I was with some of the flight crews that took B-17s to the 94th at Bury St. Edmund and a couple of find days in August the command had flight crews out at the hard stands applying wax and polishing the planes, most likely this was to have them look spit and polish when they returned to the ZOI to fly off to that resting place at Kingman AZ. (I found time to be in a library at Kings Col.) RE fabric: I was a navigator on a plane to be ferried to the ZOI. We took off in the evening from Prestwick heading for Iceland about 5 mins after takeoff the left side life raft compartment door opened and the raft sailed back and hung up on the elevator, ripping off the fabric, the pilot, Owen Knutzen, made it bck for a landing. we were hung up for several days waiting for the repairs to be done and for the dope to dry!! So for the fragile fabric we had a few more days to roam in the Glasgow area, Tam-o-Shanter pub and few other interesting spots. LeRoy Christenson Nav 359th From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 17 08:17:58 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:17:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: <37.22ec0ce6.29a0c136@aol.com> Lloyd, I see you have an excellent and complete answer to questions 1,2 & 3. and the first part of 4. Last half of 4. They might have had oil on them that congealed in the cold. More likely they had moisture (water ) maybe from condensation rain or fog. that froze in the cold. They could have been hung with the release lever not engaged with the release levers on the plane, but this is not likely (5) We did not practice bailing out. In our crew the pilots, Bombardier navigator & Engineer bailed out the entrance door behind the nose compartment. The radio and waist bailed out the waist door. Anyone who wanted to could (Radio or top turret or engineer) bail out the bomb bay. The hinges on the bomb bay doors had shear pins in them that would shear with about 100 pounds on them. One could just jump down on them and they were supposed to pop open. Incidentally the catwalk didn't go over the Bombay it went through it. It was wide enough. We were not fat. It took up room. We didn't need a hallway. we needed a place to hang bombs. From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 17 14:30:15 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:30:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 In-Reply-To: <37.22ec0ce6.29a0c136@aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Mr. Rencher. Your reply and Mr. Runnels reply have helped clarify these points for me. I appreciate it. Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 ...Incidentally the catwalk didn't go over the Bombay it went through it. It was wide enough. We were not fat. It took up room. We didn't need a hallway. we needed a place to hang bombs. From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 17 15:44:55 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:44:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: <14d.912fb16.29a129f7@aol.com> Lloyd, Although I have many of the characteristics of a mule, my answers were not intended to be a kick in the pants. All systems on a B17 were electric except the cowl flaps and brakes which were the only hydraulics. The bomb release failures could have been simply electrical failures like a broken or shot in two wire or a corroded terminal or connection. Hung up bombs did happen, but maybe not as often as you might be lead to believe. I suspect that a majority of crews never had one. Best Wishes. Jack From thollritt@yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 17:41:47 2002 From: thollritt@yahoo.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:41:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bare Metal Message-ID: <20020217174147.74954.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, In refrence to the paint and control surfaces, I think some fighter pilots were more concerned about polishing wings and such on natural metal aircraft like the P-51's. Some restorations have gone to great lenths to smooth out the ride using filler and paint. Now as far as B-17's go... Dad told me when he flew the tail gunner position after losing his turret to H2X, it was a little un-nerving seeing shrapenal punture holes in the tail control surfaces. Soon after followed by a tear and section rip away! And just look at what an engine fire to these surfaces too, but I guess your feathers need to be lightweight when your using "Foot" power :) Todd (303rd A-637) > >From: Thor542086@aol.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal > >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:57 EST > > > >Does anyone know who or what determined what > planes would be painted and > >what planes would be bare metal. I remember my > dad's bomber was bare metal, > >but I see other planes that were painted. Could it > be the time during the > >war > >when we had air superiorty the AAF started just > using polished metal? > >Terry Lucas > > Message: 7 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:23:47 -0500 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Paint > > > > Bill: I can't imagine with wartime conditions > ground crews would polish > > B-17s, > > Perhaps it is one of those old "pilots" tales, told > tounge in cheek. > But I heard a couple pilots say they flew a few mph > faster because > of the polish job done on their plane. I guess I'm a > bit too gullable. > > I've > > seen Aluminum Overcast too, and Sentimental > Journey, both in natural finish. > > The aluminum on both look the same and appears > to be the kind used during > > the war. > > I have a piece of unpainted B-17 skin from a crashed > B-17, and it was nothing like > what I saw close-up on Aluminum Overcast, however as > I > mentioned, when I went up close to inspect, I did so > near the rear > elevator, so it is very likely that what I was > looking at was the fabric > control surface painted to look like aluminum. At > that time I > thought that everything on the outside was supposed > to be > aluminum. Next time I tour the plane I'll look > closer at other parts > of the plane. When I toured the Collins plane, it > looked like real > aluminum, just painted, but the Overcast looked > plastic to me. I > must have been looking at the fabric surfaces. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine > wejones@megalink.net > > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > > WWII/B-17 page > http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: "Maurice Paulk" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:55:43 -0600 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver & camo > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > TERRY LUCAS -- The presence of silver & camo 17s in > a formation I = > bellieve is do to a transition period. When they > started building silver = > ones they would replace the camos but not all at > one time.. I'm not = > sure rather the Fs were replaced with silver Fs or > not.. Seems to me it = > was the silver Gs that started the transition. > > Any body know - Jack you seem to have a better > memory than me and more = > contact with the "birds" too.--Maurice Paulk -{ the > mouthy one] By the = > way did all the camo green ships have blue > bellies?????????? > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Transitional//EN"> > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > name=3DGENERATOR> > > > >
TERRY LUCAS -- The > presence of silver = > & camo=20 > 17s in a formation I bellieve is do to a transition > period. When they = > started=20 > building silver ones they would replace the  > camos but not all at = > one=20 > time.. I'm not sure rather the Fs were replaced with > silver Fs or not.. = > Seems to=20 > me it was the silver Gs that started the > transition.
>
 
>
Any body know  > - Jack you seem to = > have a=20 > better memory than me and more contact with the > "birds" too.--Maurice = > Paulk -{=20 > the mouthy one] By the way did all the camo green > ships have blue=20 > bellies??????????
>
 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: Thor542086@aol.com > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:52:42 EST > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: bare metal > > > --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Thanks to all for their responses to the question to > bare metal. All your > explanations make sense to me. I have heard before > that the bare metal > increases a planes speed. Terry > > --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Thanks to > all for their responses to the question to bare > metal. All your explanations make sense to me. I > have heard before that the bare metal increases a > planes speed. Terry > > --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary-- > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 17 19:33:29 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:33:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photo of "Jerry Jinx" crew/ after mission Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B7C0.1147B340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends, If you go to the 303rd web site and type in “Jerry Jinx” and select E.H. Reber crew you will find both “S For Sugar” ( #41-24619 ) B-17F and “Jerry Jinx” ( #41-24607 ). One of the few items that I have left from my father’s belongings is an original photo of the Jerry Jinx crew depicted underneath the initial crew photo. It shows a crew posing for the picture after a mission. They are all dressed in thick leather flight suits. When, in a recent question to the forum, I commented ( somewhat more “poetically” than necessary) about the confined spaces inside the aircraft I was considering the seemingly bulky apparel, the need for walk around oxygen bottles, and the flight conditions involved ie. Turbulence, maneuvering, etc. When I had the privilege to tour the Aluminum Overcast a few years back I was wearing a tee shirt, levi’s , and sneakers; and it was about 90 degrees hot in the shade. When I look at this particular photo ( also hanging on the wall in front of me ) I am amazed that anyone having to wear this gear was able to negotiate the narrow passage ways within the interior of those planes. The fact that it was done, and done routinely, is plainly clear. I encourage anyone of you from my generation ( baby boomers ) who have not had the opportunity to see the inside of a B-17 to take the very first opportunity available to do so. Maybe you will understand my amazement when you see it first hand. Once I have determined with certainty that my father was not in the photo mentioned above, I will gladly send the photo to anyone who has a legitimate desire to have it. It is old and faded and scuffed up a bit, but it is in a glass frame protected from further harm. It helps me to look at the faces of these men when I think I have a “clever” question to ask. If it helps someone get closer to what they too are trying to understand, I think my dad would understand why I offered the picture. My thanks again for the replies, if there are any others, I would be grateful to hear them as well. Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B7C0.1147B340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Friends,

 

If you go to the = 303rd web site and type in “Jerry Jinx” and select E.H. Reber crew = you will find both “S For Sugar” ( #41-24619 ) B-17F and “Jerry = Jinx” ( #41-24607 ).  One of the few items that I = have left from my father’s belongings is an original photo of the Jerry Jinx = crew depicted underneath the initial crew photo.  It shows a crew posing for the picture after a = mission.  They are all dressed in thick = leather flight suits.

 

When, in a recent question = to the forum, I commented ( somewhat more “poetically” than = necessary) about the confined spaces inside the aircraft I was considering the seemingly = bulky apparel, the need for walk around oxygen bottles, and the flight conditions = involved ie. Turbulence, maneuvering, etc.

 

 When I had the privilege to tour the Aluminum Overcast = a few years back I was wearing a tee shirt, levi’s , and sneakers;  and it was about 90 degrees = hot in the shade. When I look at this particular photo ( also hanging on the wall = in front of me ) I am amazed that anyone having to wear this gear was able to = negotiate the narrow passage ways within the interior of those planes.  The fact that it was done, and = done routinely, is plainly clear.  = I encourage anyone of you from my generation ( baby boomers ) who have not = had the opportunity to see the inside of a B-17 to take the very first = opportunity available to do so. Maybe you will understand my amazement when you see = it first hand.

 

Once I have determined = with certainty that my father was not in the photo mentioned above,  I will gladly send the photo = to anyone who has a legitimate desire to have it.  It is old and faded and scuffed up a bit, but it is in a glass = frame protected from further harm.  = It helps me to look at the faces of these men when I think I have a = “clever” question to ask.

 

If it helps someone get = closer to what they too are trying to understand, I think my dad would understand = why I offered the picture.

 

My thanks again for the = replies, if there are any others, I would be grateful to  hear them as = well.

 

Lloyd = Grant

Lakeland, = Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B7C0.1147B340-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Sun Feb 17 23:05:57 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:05:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay doors Message-ID: <002f01c1b807$a956bb80$38bb9ace@mjpmtman> From: "Lloyd J H Grant" Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Friends, My questions follow: 1. Were the bomb-bays hydraulically, or electrically operated? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This question brings back the memory of a rumor and a question. On the way back from a mission - and over the channel - a crew member entered the bomb bay to crank up the bay doors. He had one of then cranked up and engaged when the door closed the micro switcch - still on open - started the motor and reversed the crank, kicking him over backwards and out the other side of the bay---no 'chute. According to the rumor the bombardier had hit "salvo" and the doors were swinging free. Wasn't told to me -- I just heard... Maurice Paulk From Jprencher@aol.com Mon Feb 18 01:03:21 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:03:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: <8e.2323d8f2.29a1acd9@aol.com> Mr. Grant, I want to tell you a story. It is the absolute truth. I think you will find it interesting and maybe you will learn a bit about the great war. The One we won. One crew was flying wing position in a 12 plane formation. The bomb load on that mission was 4 2000 pound bombs. Two of them on each side of the bomb bay. when they dropped their bombs and turned away from the target, the Radio Man called the Bombardier and told him he had two hung up bombs that didn't drop. When the Bombardier got back there he found that the bottom bomb had failed to release and the top bomb had dropped on schedule but there was not room for it to get past the hung up bottom bomb so it was sitting there wedged between the bottom bomb and the Bomb rack. Remember each of those bombs weighed one ton. The top bomb had fallen far enough the wire was out of the rear fuse propeller and the wind from the open bomb bay had been enough to turn the propeller off the rear fuse so that bomb was armed and could be detonated by slapping the rear fuse with your hand. The bombardier, radio man and the ball turret sent about 30 minutes trying to pry, or knock the bomb loose with the wheel crank and hatchet and were getting nowhere. The bombardier then call the copilot (who happened to be to this day a Licensed Aircraft & Engine mechanic) and asked him to come back there. The copilot sized up the situation. He went out into the open Bombay 27,000 feet above Germany and took off the copper wires that were still attached to the bomb racks from the dropped bombs.and twisted them together, making a long wire. He attached one end of the wire to the failed bomb rack and stretched the other end of the wire back into the radio room. He then got on the floor of the radio room with his feet braised against the Bombay door, wrapped the end of the wire around his gloved hands and being as strong as a horse pulled on the wire and released the faulty bomb rack and both bombs fell away. He then went back to the cockpit and relieved the pilot who had been flying formation for over 30 minutes and was tired. Now the rest of the story. As the years passed by both the Radio man and the Ball turret started telling this story but changed it a bit so each said they were one that got the bomb lose. After telling the story for 40 years or so and the way our old age memory works they each one began to really believe that they really were the ones that did it. SOME 10 YEARS AGO OR SO THE BALL TURRET ACTUALLY TRIED TO GET HIMSELF AWARDED A DFC for releasing that armed bomb. Now Mr. Grant, the moral of this story. The stories you hear from us old folks might have an element of truth in them. They might be something that happened but it could well be to someone else. It could be a complete lie. It could be grossly altered to make the teller look like a hero. If they don't want to talk about it there is a good chance they were really there and something really did happen to them. I know a fellow now who claims to have been one of Dolittles Rangers but in talking to him I find he knows absolutely nothing about a B25. I did ferry them so I know a bit about them but he knows nothing. I hope now you can take all we tell you with a small weight of Sodium Chloride Best Wishes, Jack From jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Mon Feb 18 04:19:11 2002 From: jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com (jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:19:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1B801.1FCB9BC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002F_01C1B801.1FCB9BC0" ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C1B801.1FCB9BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TO 303rdBGA: Can anyone (especially someone on the Stockton Crew of the 427thBS) = help me identify the picture of the man standing in the hole in the tail = of a B-17. I think it is my Dad (Hubert E. "Goon" Miller), but he was = in the 358thBS not in the 427thBS as the picture caption indicates. I'm wondering if Dad did not fly in this mission and was simply = used for scale in the picture to show the size of the hole? Did Lt = Stockton fly a mission with the 358thBS? Is this really my Dad? If so, = then why are they in the same picture together when they come from = different BS (358th and 427th)? This is a copy of an e-mail I sent to my siblings for = identification. Help, =20 Jim Miller=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Wrom: DOTWFAOBUZXUW To: Jon miller ; Jim Miller ; Ron Miller ; Sandra Oliphant=20 Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 Hey Gang: Do you think this is Dad standing in the hole in the tail of the = B-17. The pilot (Stockton) is from the 303rd but not in the 358thBS; = but it sure looks like Dad. He always said he was standing in a hole in = the tail of a B-17. =20 Now, I have another problem. I can't remember what website I was = surfing to get this picture. =20 THIS CAPTION APPEARS BELOW THE ATTACHED PICTURE = =20 February 16, 1943: One of thirty damaged Fortresses, the 303rd's Joe = Btfsplk (flown by 1/Lt Donald E. Stockton, on the left), came home with = an FW-190's cannon fire hole as big as a household door in the fin. = Damage was inflicted by a FW 190 during a raid on the U-Boat base at St. = Nazaire in occupied France. SOURCE: The Mighty Eighth by Roger A. Freeman ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C1B801.1FCB9BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TO 303rdBGA:
 
     Can anyone (especially = someone on the=20 Stockton Crew of the 427thBS) help me identify the picture of the man = standing=20 in the hole in the tail of a B-17.  I think it is my Dad (Hubert E. = "Goon"=20 Miller), but he was in the 358thBS not in the 427thBS as the picture = caption=20 indicates.
 
     I'm wondering if Dad did = not fly in=20 this mission and was simply used for scale in the picture to show = the size=20 of the hole?  Did Lt Stockton fly a mission with the 358thBS?  = Is this=20 really my Dad?  If so, then why are they in the same picture = together when=20 they come from different BS (358th and 427th)?
 
     This is a copy of an e-mail = I sent to=20 my siblings for identification.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =            Help,&n= bsp;  =20
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20 Jim Miller 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jim Miller
To: Jon miller ; Jim Miller ; Ron Miller ; = Sandra = Oliphant
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 9:57 PM
Subject: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - = page=20 2

Hey = Gang:
 
     Do you think this is Dad standing = in the=20 hole in the tail of the B-17.  The pilot (Stockton) is from the = 303rd but=20 not in the 358thBS; but it sure looks like Dad.  He always said he = was=20 standing in a hole in the tail of a B-17. 
 
     Now, I have another problem.  = I can't=20 remember what website I was surfing to get this picture.
          =        =20
THIS CAPTION=20 APPEARS BELOW THE ATTACHED=20 PICTURE          = ;            =      =20
February 16, 1943: One of = thirty damaged=20 Fortresses, the 303rd's Joe Btfsplk (flown by 1/Lt Donald E. = Stockton,=20 on the left), came home with an FW-190's cannon fire hole as big as a = household=20 door in the fin. Damage was inflicted by a FW 190 during a raid on the = U-Boat=20 base at St. Nazaire in occupied France.
SOURCE:=20 The Mighty Eighth by Roger A.=20 Freeman
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He did not fly with the Stockton crew (427th) that day. Lawrence Grant was the Navigator on the Stockton crew. Hubert Miller flew with the Carl Morales crew (358th) aboard SKY WOLF that day. I guess he just came over to inspect the damage and they took the picture. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "Jim Miller" Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 TO 303rdBGA: Can anyone (especially someone on the Stockton Crew of the 427thBS) help me identify the picture of the man standing in the hole in the tail of a B-17. I think it is my Dad (Hubert E. "Goon" Miller), but he was in the 358thBS not in the 427thBS as the picture caption indicates. I'm wondering if Dad did not fly in this mission and was simply used for scale in the picture to show the size of the hole? Did Lt Stockton fly a mission with the 358thBS? Is this really my Dad? If so, then why are they in the same picture together when they come from different BS (358th and 427th)? This is a copy of an e-mail I sent to my siblings for identification. Help, Jim Miller ----- Original Message ----- Wrom: DOTWFAOBUZXUW To: Jon miller ; Jim Miller ; Ron Miller ; Sandra Oliphant Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 Hey Gang: Do you think this is Dad standing in the hole in the tail of the B-17. The pilot (Stockton) is from the 303rd but not in the 358thBS; but it sure looks like Dad. He always said he was standing in a hole in the tail of a B-17. Now, I have another problem. I can't remember what website I was surfing to get this picture. THIS CAPTION APPEARS BELOW THE ATTACHED PICTURE February 16, 1943: One of thirty damaged Fortresses, the 303rd's Joe Btfsplk (flown by 1/Lt Donald E. Stockton, on the left), came home with an FW-190's cannon fire hole as big as a household door in the fin. Damage was inflicted by a FW 190 during a raid on the U-Boat base at St. Nazaire in occupied France. SOURCE: The Mighty Eighth by Roger A. 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6f8AAB/MUUU2X0Ov+D//ACHF/wB/+te6/ET74/65w/8AoRoorKQS6HOy/wDIuWv/AF9f+y1nap99 PoP5UUUCe5dt/wDjy/GL+tVD/wAeM/8A10NFFMlmYv8Ax9fn/KpLD77fUfyoooA6W4/5F21/7a/z Fc1H/rF+n9aKKQLdlWH/AFs/1/wrXvf+Qfb/APXKP/0I0UUxmS/32+tFFFAH/9k= ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1B857.7152C580-- From shank1@gis.net Mon Feb 18 17:29:26 2002 From: shank1@gis.net (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:29:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Some answers to bomb bay questions References: <20020217170105.9A1C953963@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000901c1b8a1$f4419a30$0000a398@SHANK> The bomb bay doors were electrically operated with a manual screw back up, similar to the landing gear back up. The crank entry was below the bomb bay door leading to the cockpit and took the same crank as the landing gear. Some planes froze up at altitude and required manual cranking quite often. I-944 (Daddy's Delight) in the 359th was notable for this happening. As to other control of the bomb bay doors, I seem to recall that the Pilot had a salvo ball he could use in an emergency. Bail out departure points were a personal choice as I recall. If given enough time, the waist door was the preferred point as it was clearest of obstacles that might hinder departure. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #511 - 8 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. attack on B17 (lmmtsm) > 2. Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 (Lloyd J H Grant) > 3. Re: Paint vs. Bare Metal (Fordlauer@aol.com) > 4. RE: Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 (Lloyd J H Grant) > 5. Re Paint / polish or waxing (RoyAudry651@aol.com) > 6. Re: Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 (Jprencher@aol.com) > 7. RE: Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 (Lloyd J H Grant) > 8. Re: Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 (Jprencher@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "lmmtsm" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:46:58 -0000 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] attack on B17 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hello from England > > A documentary shown on TV this week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang = > fighter, obviously highlighted its bomber escort work,mainly B17's.There = > was stock footage of a german fighter attacking a B17 from the rear, = > this has been shown many times before but only the final stages of the = > attack.The footage on this this programme apparently showed all of the = > attack, which must have been heading towards 30 seconds in duration. I = > am certain you must have seen this film yourselves and I am wondering if = > the B17 was ever identified. > My point in question being that the crew are not returning any fire = > whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the tail gunner may of = > course be out action already but the ball turret shows no movement and = > as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are totally still.Finally = > an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts to lower,it = > was in bare metal finish. > I would appreciate any information on this or could you put me in = > contact with any other organisation who maybe able to help =20 > > Kind Regards > > Stephen Moran > > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
>
>
Hello from England
>
 
>
A documentary shown on = > TV  this=20 > week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang fighter, obviously highlighted its = > bomber=20 > escort work,mainly B17's.There was stock footage of a german = > fighter=20 > attacking a B17 from the rear, this has been shown many times before but = > only=20 > the final stages of the attack.The footage on this this = > programme=20 > apparently showed all of the attack, which must have been heading = > towards=20 > 30 seconds in duration. I am certain you must have seen this = > film=20 > yourselves and I am wondering if the B17 was ever = > identified.
>
My point in question being that the = > crew are not=20 > returning any fire whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the = > tail=20 > gunner may of course be out action  already but the ball = > turret=20 > shows no movement and as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are = > totally=20 > still.Finally an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts = > to=20 > lower,it was in bare metal finish.
>
I would appreciate any information on = > this or could=20 > you put me in contact with any other organisation who maybe able to = > > help  
>
 
>
Kind Regards
>
 
>
Stephen=20 > Moran
> > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: "303rd-Talk@303rdbga. com" <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:04:01 -0500 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Friends, > > At the risk of belaboring a subject, I would like to ask a few more > questions with regard to the middle section of the B-17s that you flew. I > believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of the plane was > segregated from the forward section where assigned crew positions were: > Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. Behind the > "bomb-bay, (or "cargo" section) were stations for the Radio Operator, Ball > Turret g., two Waist g.'s, and the Tail g. If I have this correctly, no one > was assigned permanently to man the Bomb-bay. The responsibility seems to > have been somewhat universally designated. An incredibly narrow cat-walk > over the bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit > area, and visa-versa. ( I have personally had an opportunity to traverse > this constipated little walkway while visiting the " Aluminum Overcast " > while she was parked on the ground; and at best I can describe the > experience as claustrophobic. ) > > My questions follow: > > 1. Were the bomb-bays hydraulically, or electrically operated? > 2. Besides the bombardier, who else was able to operate the bomb-bay doors? > 3. Was there a manual over-ride similar to the one that could lower the > landing gear? > 4. How were the bomb shackles released ( and what might have caused them to > malfunction---resulting in the occurrence of a "hung bomb(s) ) ? > 5. And, lastly, in the unfortunate necessity of a bail out, was there a > practiced procedure for exiting the aircraft thru the bomb-bay? > > I hope these are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in > the archives, but so far I have not been able to find the answers to these > questions. > > Thank you, fellows for your incredible patience. > > Lloyd Grant > 427th son. ('42-'43) > > ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = > xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New = > Roman"'>Friends,

> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> !supportEmptyParas]> 

> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>At the risk of belaboring = > a > subject, I would like to ask a few more questions with regard to the = > middle > section of the B-17s that you flew. yes">  > I believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of = > the > plane was segregated from the forward section where assigned crew = > positions > were: Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. = > Behind > the “bomb-bay, (or “cargo” section) were stations for = > the Radio Operator, Ball > Turret g., two Waist g.’s, and the Tail g. style=3D"mso-spacerun: > yes">  If I have this correctly, no one was assigned = > permanently to > man the Bomb-bay.  The > responsibility seems to have been somewhat universally designated. style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  An incredibly narrow cat-walk = > over the > bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit area, = > and > visa-versa.  ( I have = > personally > had an opportunity to traverse this constipated little walkway while = > visiting > the “ Aluminum Overcast “ while she was parked on the = > ground; style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  and at best I can describe the > experience as claustrophobic. )

> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> !supportEmptyParas]> 

> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>My questions = > follow:

> >

color=3Dblack > face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family: > Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> !supportEmptyParas]> 

> >
    >
  1. lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'> class=3DEmailStyle15> face=3DArial> = > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; > mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Were the bomb-bays = > hydraulically, > or electrically operated?
    2. >
  2. lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'> class=3DEmailStyle15> face=3DArial> = > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; > mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Besides the bombardier, who = > else > was able to operate the bomb-bay = > doors?
    3. >
  3. lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'> class=3DEmailStyle15> face=3DArial> = > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; > mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Was there a manual = > over-ride > similar to the one that could lower the landing = > gear?
    4. >
  4. lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'> class=3DEmailStyle15> face=3DArial> = > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; > mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>How were the bomb shackles > released ( and what might have caused them to = > malfunction---resulting in > the occurrence of a “hung bomb(s) yes">  > ) ?
    5. >
  5. lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'> class=3DEmailStyle15> face=3DArial> = > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; > mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>And, lastly, in the = > unfortunate > necessity of a bail out, was there a practiced procedure for = > exiting the > aircraft thru the bomb-bay?
    6. >
> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  yes"> 

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>I hope = > these > are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in the = > archives, but > so far I have not been able to find the answers to these questions. style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  = >

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> !supportEmptyParas]> 

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Thank = > you, > fellows for your incredible = > patience.

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> !supportEmptyParas]> 

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Lloyd = > Grant

> >

class=3DEmailStyle15> size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New = > Roman"'>427th > son. (’42-’43)

> >
> > > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Fordlauer@aol.com > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:10:40 EST > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Paint vs. Bare Metal > > > --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Based on the many things I have read regarding some B-17s being painted and > others being in bare aluminum, I offer this.... It seems that the > decision was made in early 1944 during production of the G (chin guns) model. > It seems that there was no single reason alone for leaving the paint off. > Cost and hours necessary to paint them was a factor for sure. The push was on > to get new planes over there as fast as possible. Also, the B-29 program was > gearing up, and I guess it was determined that the B-17s would be obsolete > after the war- hence no need for long term corrosion protection. I have also > read that some felt that sending shiny airplanes over Europe was a bit of > boastfulness as in "we are not hiding from the Luftwaffe." I am sure weight > was a factor also. Weight has always been a factor on airplanes. An > interesting extra note here. I once read that in late 1944 a few B-29s flew > to England. It was never actually intended to deploy them there for bombing > Germany. Rather they were sent to "encourage" Germany to give up the fight, > as they were so much bigger than the B-17 and carried more bombs. The small > piece I read said the B-29s stayed in England for a short time, but did not > say whether or not the B-29s actually flew over Germany. Does anyone know or > has anyone heard about this?...........................Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Based on the many things I have read regarding some B-17s being painted and others being in bare aluminum, I offer this....      It seems that the decision was made in early 1944 during production of the G (chin guns) model. It seems that there was no single reason alone for leaving the paint off. Cost and hours necessary to paint them was a factor for sure. The push was on to get new planes over there as fast as possible. Also, the B-29 program was gearing up, and I guess it was determined that the B-17s would be obsolete after the war- hence no need for long term corrosion protection. I have also read that some felt that sending shiny airplanes over Europe was a bit of boastfulness as in "we are not hiding from the Luftwaffe." I am sure weight was a factor also. Weight has always been a factor on airplanes. An interesting extra note here. I once read that in late 1944 a few B-29s flew to England. It was never actually intended to deploy them there for bombing Germany. Rather they were sent to "encourage" Germany to give up the fight, as they were so much bigger than the B-17 and carried more bombs. The small piece I read said the B-29s stayed in England for a short time, but did not say whether or not the B-29s actually flew over Germany. Does anyone know or has anyone heard about this?...........................Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_cf.12e64609.29a07930_boundary-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: > Cc: "303rd-Talk@303rdbga. com" <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:21:50 -0500 > > Bill, > > your information helps a lot. Thank you. Your first three answers clear > up quite a bit of ignorance on my part. Unfortunately, I still fail to > grasp an understanding of questions, #4 & #5. I am dense, but I guarantee > you, once I get it; I'll not forget it.The next time I get the opportunity > to tour the interior of a B-17, much of what you guys are trying to explain > will make a whole lot better sense. Alas, the opportunities for me to do so > are rarer these days (for me) than they were for you guys a "few" years > back. > > It has been said many times, but I hope you all never get bored with hearing > it, " Thank you for what you did, and for what you have done; and what you > are doing now. > > Lloyd Grant > Hells Angels' son. > > -----Original Message----- > From: b.runnels@att.net [mailto:b.runnels@att.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 9:35 PM > To: Lloyd J H Grant > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > > Lloyd my response will be in the order of questions. > 1. electrically > 2. pilot and flight engineer had access to emergency > release handles. One located in cockpit and the other at > the forward end of the cat walk. > 3. yes-crank them down manually. Crank handles and > extensions stowed on aft bulkhead of radio compartment. > 4. an electrical impulse through the "bomb release > units" which manually controlled the shackles. > 5. bombay was a designated exit area in time of an > emergency. The pilots, flight engineer and radio > operator normally used this area. > > Hope this helps....Bill Runnels, bombardier > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: RoyAudry651@aol.com > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:27:10 EST > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re Paint / polish or waxing > > not being a pilot nor a gorund crew chief I would not know if > waxing-polsihing either painted or bare aluminum planes was a normal > operations procedure, but I do know it must have been on somebody's mind. > After the closure of Molesworth, I was with some of the flight crews that > took B-17s to the 94th at Bury St. Edmund and a couple of find days in August > the command had flight crews out at the hard stands applying wax and > polishing the planes, most likely this was to have them look spit and polish > when they returned to the ZOI to fly off to that resting place at Kingman AZ. > (I found time to be in a library at Kings Col.) > RE fabric: I was a navigator on a plane to be ferried to the ZOI. We took off > in the evening from Prestwick heading for Iceland about 5 mins after takeoff > the left side life raft compartment door opened and the raft sailed back and > hung up on the elevator, ripping off the fabric, the pilot, Owen Knutzen, > made it bck for a landing. we were hung up for several days waiting for the > repairs to be done and for the dope to dry!! So for the fragile fabric we > had a few more days to roam in the Glasgow area, Tam-o-Shanter pub and few > other interesting spots. > LeRoy Christenson > Nav 359th > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:17:58 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > To: palidin@worldnet.att.net, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > > Lloyd, > I see you have an excellent and complete answer to questions 1,2 & 3. > and the first part of 4. Last half of 4. They might have had oil on them > that congealed in the cold. More likely they had moisture (water ) maybe from > condensation rain or fog. that froze in the cold. They could have been hung > with the release lever not engaged with the release levers on the plane, but > this is not likely > (5) We did not practice bailing out. In our crew the pilots, Bombardier > navigator & Engineer bailed out the entrance door behind the nose > compartment. The radio and waist bailed out the waist door. Anyone who wanted > to could (Radio or top turret or engineer) bail out the bomb bay. The hinges > on the bomb bay doors had shear pins in them that would shear with about 100 > pounds on them. One could just jump down on them and they were supposed to > pop open. Incidentally the catwalk didn't go over the Bombay it went through > it. It was wide enough. We were not fat. It took up room. We didn't need a > hallway. we needed a place to hang bombs. > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: , <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:30:15 -0500 > > Thank you, Mr. Rencher. Your reply and Mr. Runnels reply have helped clarify > these points for me. I appreciate it. > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > > ...Incidentally the catwalk didn't go over the Bombay it went through > it. It was wide enough. We were not fat. It took up room. We didn't need a > hallway. we needed a place to hang bombs. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:44:55 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 > To: palidin@worldnet.att.net, b.runnels@att.net > Cc: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > > Lloyd, > Although I have many of the characteristics of a mule, my answers were > not intended to be a kick in the pants. All systems on a B17 were electric > except the cowl flaps and brakes which were the only hydraulics. The bomb > release failures could have been simply electrical failures like a broken or > shot in two wire or a corroded terminal or connection. Hung up bombs did > happen, but maybe not as often as you might be lead to believe. I suspect > that a majority of crews never had one. > Best Wishes. > Jack > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From palidin@worldnet.att.net Mon Feb 18 22:26:27 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:26:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B8A1.65A14DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, My dad was the navigator on Donald Stockton’s crew. They were friends. Your dad, if you read the article, was in the aircraft behind B-17F #42-24610 AKA “Joe BTFSPLK II” when it was hit in the tail section by an attacking fighter. The 20mm round chewed up a pretty good hole in the tail and rudder of Stockton’s plane. It was an incredible feat of flying ability on Stockton’s and his co-pilot ’s part ( who I think was Fort Lipe who later commanded his own B-17 as pilot). If your dad was the Miller in the photo, being 6’plus, he was there to illustrate the the magnitude of the damage for the photographer. This was early on in the 303rd commitment to the air war over Europe. One of the few things left after my dad died was a clipping from the Stars and Stripes with the photo you saw on the web-site. I will add this; most of what I have learned about my father’s involvement with the 303rd has accrued through the kindness and patience of the men that were there, a lot of sons and daughters of those men, and some guys my age who have dedicated countless hours and resources to preserving the memory of what happened in reality; not the Hollywood version. Hope you will keep in touch, and consider joining the Association ( if you have not already ). And, I hope this is a bit of help. It is mostly from memory, and some kind and patient tutelage Lloyd Grant 427th son 303rd adopted stray. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 11:19 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: Jim Miller Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 TO 303rdBGA: Can anyone (especially someone on the Stockton Crew of the 427thBS) help me identify the picture of the man standing in the hole in the tail of a B-17. I think it is my Dad (Hubert E. "Goon" Miller), but he was in the 358thBS not in the 427thBS as the picture caption indicates. I'm wondering if Dad did not fly in this mission and was simply used for scale in the picture to show the size of the hole? Did Lt Stockton fly a mission with the 358thBS? Is this really my Dad? If so, then why are they in the same picture together when they come from different BS (358th and 427th)? This is a copy of an e-mail I sent to my siblings for identification. Help, Jim Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Miller To: Jon miller ; Jim Miller ; Ron Miller ; Sandra Oliphant Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page 2 Hey Gang: Do you think this is Dad standing in the hole in the tail of the B-17. The pilot (Stockton) is from the 303rd but not in the 358thBS; but it sure looks like Dad. He always said he was standing in a hole in the tail of a B-17. Now, I have another problem. I can't remember what website I was surfing to get this picture. THIS CAPTION APPEARS BELOW THE ATTACHED PICTURE February 16, 1943: One of thirty damaged Fortresses, the 303rd's Joe Btfsplk (flown by 1/Lt Donald E. Stockton, on the left), came home with an FW-190's cannon fire hole as big as a household door in the fin. Damage was inflicted by a FW 190 during a raid on the U-Boat base at St. Nazaire in occupied France. SOURCE: The Mighty Eighth by Roger A. Freeman ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B8A1.65A14DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jim,

 

My dad = was the navigator on Donald Stockton’s crew.  They were friends.  = Your dad, if you read the article, was in the aircraft behind B-17F = #42-24610  AKA “Joe BTFSPLK = II” when it was hit in the tail section by an attacking fighter.  The 20mm round chewed up a pretty good hole in the tail and = rudder of Stockton’s plane.

 

  It was an incredible feat of = flying ability on Stockton’s and his co-pilot’s part ( who I think = was Fort Lipe who later commanded his own B-17 as pilot).  If your dad was the Miller in the photo, being 6’plus, he = was there to illustrate the the magnitude of the damage for the photographer.  This was early on in the = 303rd commitment to the air war over = Europe.

 

One of = the few things left after my dad died was a clipping from the Stars and Stripes = with the photo you saw on the web-site.

 

I will = add this;  most of what I have learned = about my father’s involvement with the 303rd has accrued through the kindness = and patience of the men that were there, a lot of sons and daughters of those men, = and some guys my age who have dedicated countless hours and resources to preserving = the memory of what happened in reality;  not the Hollywood version.

 

Hope you = will keep in touch, and consider joining the Association ( if you have not already = ).

 

And, I = hope this is a bit of help.  It is = mostly from memory, and some kind and patient tutelage

 

Lloyd = Grant

427th = son

303rd adopted stray.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, February = 17, 2002 11:19 PM
To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Cc: Jim Miller
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page = 2

 

TO 303rdBGA:<= /p>

 <= /p>

     Can = anyone (especially someone on the Stockton Crew of the 427thBS) help me = identify the picture of the man standing in the hole in the tail of a B-17.  I = think it is my Dad (Hubert E. "Goon" Miller), but he was in the 358thBS = not in the 427thBS as the picture caption indicates.<= /p>

 <= /p>

     I'm = wondering if Dad did not fly in this mission and was simply used for scale in the picture to show the size of the hole?  Did Lt Stockton fly a = mission with the 358thBS?  Is this really my Dad?  If so, then why are = they in the same picture together when they come from different BS (358th and 427th)?

 <= /p>

     This is = a copy of an e-mail I sent to my siblings for identification.<= /p>

 <= /p>

     &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;   Help,    <= /p>

     &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Jim Miller <= /p>

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Jim Miller

To: Jon miller ; Jim Miller ; Ron Miller ; Sandra Oliphant

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 9:57 PM

Subject: Battle-Damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses Tail hits - page = 2

 <= /p>

Hey = Gang:<= /p>

 <= /p>

     Do you = think this is Dad standing in the hole in the tail of the B-17.  The pilot = (Stockton) is from the 303rd but not in the 358thBS; but it sure looks like = Dad.  He always said he was standing in a hole in the tail of a B-17.  = <= /p>

 <= /p>

     Now, I = have another problem.  I can't remember what website I was surfing to = get this picture.

     &nbs= p;           

THIS CAPTION APPEARS BELOW THE ATTACHED = PICTURE        &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      

February 16, 1943: One of thirty = damaged Fortresses, the 303rd's Joe = Btfsplk (flown by 1/Lt Donald E. = Stockton, on the left), came home with an FW-190's cannon fire hole as big as a = household door in the fin. Damage was inflicted by a FW 190 during a raid on the = U-Boat base at St. Nazaire in occupied = France.
SOURCE: The Mighty Eighth by Roger A. = Freeman<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B8A1.65A14DC0-- From jimwall@ilhawaii.net Tue Feb 19 05:06:33 2002 From: jimwall@ilhawaii.net (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:06:33 -1000 (HST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020218190624.00a0c2a0@ilhawaii.net> For a number of reasons, mostly involving shelf space and old age, I am thinning out my collection of books related to the 8th AF and WWII, and have some for sale. If interested, contact me privately at the e-mail address below for a list of books with prices. Jim Walling jimbo2@ilhawaii.net From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Tue Feb 19 20:52:39 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:52:39 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: Jack, this is an excellent point for us "youngsters!" I have run inot this on several occasions. I interviewed all of the surviving crew of Lassie Come Home 47 years after the fact, and each and every one of their stories were different. Basically, the plane was attacked from the rear, a wing caught fire, and everyone bailed out. Everyone had a different chronology of events, and exactly what happened when. Bottom line for us youngsters is to recount what was said and not try to draw conclusions. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: palidin@worldnet.att.net, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >CC: glm@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:03:21 EST > >Mr. Grant, > I want to tell you a story. It is the absolute truth. I think you >will >find it interesting and maybe you will learn a bit about the great war. The >One we won. > One crew was flying wing position in a 12 plane formation. The bomb >load >on that mission was 4 2000 pound bombs. Two of them on each side of the >bomb >bay. >when they dropped their bombs and turned away from the target, the Radio >Man >called the Bombardier and told him he had two hung up bombs that didn't >drop. > When the Bombardier got back there he found that the bottom bomb had >failed to release and the top bomb had dropped on schedule but there was >not >room for it to get past the hung up bottom bomb so it was sitting there >wedged between the bottom bomb and the Bomb rack. Remember each of those >bombs weighed one ton. The top bomb had fallen far enough the wire was out >of >the rear fuse propeller and the wind from the open bomb bay had been enough >to turn the propeller off the rear fuse so that bomb was armed and could be >detonated by slapping the rear fuse with your hand. > The bombardier, radio man and the ball turret sent about 30 minutes >trying to pry, or knock the bomb loose with the wheel crank and hatchet and >were getting nowhere. The bombardier then call the copilot (who happened to >be to this day a Licensed Aircraft & Engine mechanic) and asked him to come >back there. The copilot sized up the situation. He went out into the open >Bombay 27,000 feet above Germany and took off the copper wires that were >still attached to the bomb racks from the dropped bombs.and twisted them >together, making a long wire. He attached one end of the wire to the >failed bomb rack and stretched the other end of the wire back into the >radio >room. He then got on the floor of the radio room with his feet braised >against the Bombay door, wrapped the end of the wire around his gloved >hands >and being as strong as a horse pulled on the wire and released the faulty >bomb rack and both bombs fell away. He then went back to the cockpit and >relieved the pilot who had been flying formation for over 30 minutes and >was >tired. > Now the rest of the story. As the years passed by both the Radio man >and >the Ball turret started telling this story but changed it a bit so each >said >they were one that got the bomb lose. After telling the story for 40 years >or so and the way our old age memory works they each one began to really >believe that they really were the ones that did it. SOME 10 YEARS AGO OR >SO >THE BALL TURRET ACTUALLY TRIED TO GET HIMSELF AWARDED A DFC for releasing >that armed bomb. > Now Mr. Grant, the moral of this story. The stories you hear from us >old folks might have an element of truth in them. They might be something >that happened but it could well be to someone else. It could be a complete >lie. It could be grossly altered to make the teller look like a hero. If >they >don't want to talk about it there is a good chance they were really there >and >something really did happen to them. I know a fellow now who claims to have >been one of Dolittles Rangers but in talking to him I find he knows >absolutely nothing about a B25. I did ferry them so I know a bit about them >but he knows nothing. I hope now you can take all we tell you with a >small >weight of Sodium Chloride > Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From palidin@worldnet.att.net Thu Feb 21 03:50:09 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:50:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missions completed Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1BA60.F2E4EB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After completing a tour of duty in combat, what options were there ? Were you discharged back into civilian life? Required to remain in active service? Were the regulations governing this different for Officers and Enlisted men? If you volunteered for a 2nd tour in combat would that affect your eligibility for promotion? If you decided to make a career in the Air Force, what incentives affected your decision to stay in? PS.( aside ) (does anyone here have B-47 experience ?) Re. Mc Dill, AFB, Tampa, Fla. ( 1952-1955 ). Thanks . Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. palidin@worldnet.att.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1BA60.F2E4EB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After completing a tour of duty in combat, what options were = there

After completing a tour of = duty in combat, what options were there ?  Were you discharged back into civilian life?  Required to remain in active service? Were the = regulations governing this different for Officers and Enlisted = men?

 

If you volunteered for a = 2nd  tour in combat would that = affect your eligibility for promotion?

 

If you decided to make a = career in the Air Force, what incentives affected your decision to stay = in?

 PS.( aside )

(does anyone here have = B-47 experience ?) Re. Mc Dill, AFB, Tampa, Fla. ( 1952-1955 = ).

 

Thanks = .

 

Lloyd = Grant

Lakeland, = Fl.

palidin@worldnet.att.net =

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1BA60.F2E4EB40-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 22 03:27:34 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:27:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] re: Missions completed.2/21/02 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1BB26.F5A0EC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not always glad that I ask some of the questions that I post here, but in this instance and in the case of the bomb-bay question asked earlier, I am very glad that I asked. The responses from Jack Rencher, Bill Runnels, Bill Heller, and Dick Smith were very helpful to my understanding and perspective. Thanks to all of you. With respect to the most recent question regarding term of service, tours of duty, and promotions I would like to try to clarify some points in your responses. 1. If you enlisted in the Army Air Corps, whether an enlisted man, or Officer ( with certain exceptions ) you were in for the duration of the War. Do I understand this correctly? 2. After completing a tour of missions ( in the beginning they were 25, and later upped to 35 in the 8th Air Force ) you would be granted a brief period of R&R, or rehabilitation, but afterward you would be reassigned – sometimes to a training outfit, other duties, or sent back to combat status; or, where ever it was deemed you could be best utilized. Do I have this correctly? 3. Promotions were awarded based on proficiency, not necessarily by the number of missions flown, or the danger involved, or from the attrition rate created by casualties and regular rotations. Is this correct? 4. After completing one tour of duty with one Group a man would not necessarily be reassigned to the same Group for a second tour, but would be assigned based on the manpower needs required by the Army Air Force. For instance, Bill Heller flew with the 303rd for the duration of the War , and advanced to Command a Squadron in that Group. 5. My father finished his first tour with the 303rd in March of 1943. Was assigned to the HQ of the 45th BW ( based on the information in his flight log, I have to assume this was a “desk tour”). His second tour was with the 452nd BG (H) and it was a combat tour. Could he have requested to return to the 303rd for this last tour? ( I realize and appreciate the fact that not every Group operated in the same manner ). Thank you all again for your patience, help, and clarifications. Lloyd Grant Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1BB26.F5A0EC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am not always glad that = I ask some of the questions that I post here, but in this instance and in the = case of the bomb-bay question asked earlier, I am very glad that I asked.  The responses from Jack = Rencher, Bill Runnels, Bill Heller, and Dick Smith were very helpful to my = understanding and perspective.  Thanks to = all of you.

 

With respect to the most = recent question regarding term of service, tours of duty, and promotions I = would like to try to clarify some points in your = responses.

 

  1. If you enlisted in the Army = Air Corps, whether an enlisted man, or Officer ( with certain = exceptions ) you were in for the duration of the War.  Do I understand this = correctly?
  2. After completing a tour of missions ( in the beginning they were 25, and later upped to 35 in = the 8th Air Force ) you would be granted a brief period of R&R, or rehabilitation, but afterward you would be reassigned – = sometimes to a training outfit, other duties, or sent back to combat status;  or,  where ever it was deemed you could be best = utilized. Do I have this correctly?
  3. Promotions were awarded = based on proficiency, not necessarily by the number of missions flown, or = the danger involved, or from the attrition rate created by casualties = and regular rotations.  = Is this correct?
  4. After completing one tour = of duty with one Group a man would not necessarily be reassigned to the = same Group for a second tour, but would be assigned based on the manpower = needs required by the Army Air Force. For instance,  Bill Heller flew with the 303rd for = the duration of the War , and advanced to Command a Squadron in that = Group.
  5. My father finished his = first tour with the 303rd in March of 1943.  Was assigned to the HQ of the 45th BW = ( based on the information in his flight log, I have to assume this = was a “desk tour”). His second tour was with the 452nd BG (H) = and it was a combat tour.  Could = he have requested to return to the 303rd for this last = tour?

 

( I realize and appreciate = the fact that not every Group operated in the same manner = ).

 

 

Thank you all again for = your patience, help, and clarifications.

 

Lloyd = Grant

Lakeland, = Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1BB26.F5A0EC00-- From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 22 05:38:42 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:38:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] re: Missions completed.2/21/02 Message-ID: <14f.9559708.29a73362@aol.com> Lloyd, I just glanced at your questions. It's late and I'm headed too Boise early in the Morning so I can't answer until I get there tomorrow. You are about right in all your assumptions except I think we were enlisted for the duration plus 6 months. You could request about anything you wanted to, but that doesn't mean you got it. Best Wishes, Jack From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 22 23:57:02 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:57:02 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walk Around Oxygen Bottles Message-ID: I was reading through a combat chronology last night and the author made reference to recharging the walk around oxygen bottles in flight. Could these bottles be recharged in flight? The oxygen system was located under the pilots compartment on the right side of the catwalk leading to the Navigator's position. I've seen several of these, but it did not appear that there was any kind of fitting whereby a walk around bottle could be recharged. Jack, can you shed a little light on how the oxygen system worked in general, and then if walk around bottles could be recharged in flight? Thanks, guys! Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From hans80@aol.com Sun Feb 24 05:26:26 2002 From: hans80@aol.com (hans80@aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:26:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 First aid Kits Message-ID: <8d.145f9021.29a9d382@aol.com> I recall that the numerous first aid kits hung on the inside of B-17 fuselages all disappeared about the middle of my tour in 1944. A couple reasons for it have been suggested: 1. The bandages were saturated with sulfa drugs which proved to have adverse effects on some personnel. 2. The kits were being pilfered for their morphine syrettes. Anyone know the reason? Old Bob From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 24 14:06:27 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:06:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walk Around Oxygen Bottles Message-ID: <104.1179a2c6.29aa4d63@aol.com> Kevin, I have been on the road, so please forgive me for the delay in answering you. Also there are two things I must tell you. (1) The B17 was constantly being modified, changed, experimented with and built by three different companies. Boeing, Douglas and Vega. Their equipment, guns, engines, etc., and , etc., likewise. It might be very difficult to find two exactly alike. They were also modified in the field. As I remember on the F & G models there was a low pressure oxygen system with, as I remember, 16 Stainless steel tanks plumbed so they made four systems, independent of each other. At each station there were plug ins from two systems. When one was shot out you had a back up. the tanks were pressurized when full to about 500 PSI. (2) I am 81 years old and When I had open heart surgery the 2nd time the heart/lung machine malfunctioned and I was without oxygen for about 5 minutes. Hence have considerable brain damage and loss of memory. SO I don't remember refilling the walk around bottles from the big tanks but knowing Boeing I suspect we could. Maybe someone could help with this one. I think I still have one in the shop. and I am back in Boise so I will look for it and if I find it I will examine it for a filler connection and let you know. Keep the peace. Keep the Faith. Keep the guns clean. (Not too much oil) Jack Rencher From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 24 19:48:14 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:48:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 First aid Kits Message-ID: <15d.985c702.29aa9d7e@aol.com> Dear Old Bob I flew my last(35th) combat mission in B17s with the 358th Sqdn 303rd Bomb Group during the "Battle of the Bulge" 24 December 1944. I can assure you we had our standard supply of first aid kits aboard. It was one of the items on my own designed standard check list. I will admit I was kindof cookie as my check list included 2 spare guns, 2 spare chutes in the front of the bird, 2 more in the waist, an air speed indicator that I built that would clamp into the pilots window, a spare altimeter, a set of carefully selected tools an extra hatchet and some other items I won't mention. I do not remember any shortage of first aid kits and they all had morphine in them. After I came home from England I flew many B17s and other aircraft to Kingman Arizona where they were being cut up for scrap. I "rescued" many items from these birds including but not limited to First aid kits, hatchets, & instruments, I never noticed many first aid kits missing from them either but these war weary birds often had so much missing it was a bit hairy to even take off in them and lots of systems didn't even work. So be it. Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 24 21:54:04 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:54:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-17 First aid Kits Message-ID: <3c.19d44565.29aabafc@aol.com> Gordy, Thanks for the interesting story. Even if the morphine was still there I would be very much afraid of it after all the years. I'm afraid of me and my driving after all these years also. I have a first aid kit in my treasures at the shop. I'm going to look at an oxygen walk around bottle there tomorrow to see how it is recharged and I will look in the first aid kit too for the morphine. It is one I liberated from a 303rd (VK I item) I saw one night in Kingman Arizona waiting to be scraped. I landed there about 11 PM one night and a jeep picked me up. On the way to the office we drove past it sitting there. I had flown more missions in it than any other of our birds. I asked the jeep driver to turn around and let me walk through it for old times sake. I turned my back on him so he wouldn't see the tears in my eyes. It appeared to be in very good condition just like I had left it in England maybe a year earlier. I could have bought it for $1200. But I didn't have $1200 and wouldn't have know where to put it if I have had. Best Wishes Gordy, Lo-Jack From DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM Mon Feb 25 15:35:27 2002 From: DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:35:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 First aid Kits Message-ID: With the temperature well below zero, didn't the morphine and any other liquid medications freeze? If no, why not? If yes, how did you thaw it out to use it? Dave From DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM Mon Feb 25 15:55:56 2002 From: DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Letters home Message-ID: List, I know that in your letters home you could not mention your location and where your missions where. But could you write about your experiences in the air, comments on the progress of the war, living conditions, damages to aircraft, losses, etc. I guess what I am asking is, what could you write home about and not have it censored? Also, did any of you find it uncomfortable to write to your sweetheart or wife on a more personal nature? Knowing that someone else would read it? Thanks! Dave From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Mon Feb 25 17:23:45 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:23:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack R. and Kingman Message-ID: Hi Jack! Thanks for taking a look at the oxygen bottle and how they are refilled. If you have any brain damage from that heart operation, no one in this forum would know it. Your mind seems as crisp and clear like when you were at Molesworth! Can you tell me a little about Kingman and what you saw there. I know it's where many surplus WWII planes were sent to be scrapped, but what planes did you see there? Who owned the area and how long did the planes sit before being scrapped. And how could you pass up a $1,200 B-17. Shoot, that was only a years salary back then! Thanks, Jack! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com >CC: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-17 First aid Kits >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:54:04 EST > >Gordy, > Thanks for the interesting story. Even if the morphine was still >there I >would be very much afraid of it after all the years. I'm afraid of me and >my >driving after all these years also. I have a first aid kit in my treasures >at the shop. I'm going to look at an oxygen walk around bottle there >tomorrow >to see how it is recharged and I will look in the first aid kit too for the >morphine. It is one I liberated from a 303rd (VK I item) I saw one night >in >Kingman Arizona waiting to be scraped. I landed there about 11 PM one night >and a jeep picked me up. On the way to the office we drove past it sitting >there. I had flown more missions in it than any other of our birds. I >asked >the jeep driver to turn around and let me walk through it for old times >sake. >I turned my back on him so he wouldn't see the tears in my eyes. It >appeared >to be in very good condition just like I had left it in England maybe a >year >earlier. I could have bought it for $1200. But I didn't have $1200 and >wouldn't have know where to put it if I have had. > Best Wishes Gordy, > Lo-Jack > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From wejones@megalink.net Mon Feb 25 21:14:02 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:14:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack R. and Kingman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And how could you pass up a $1,200 B-17. Shoot, that was only a years > salary back then! I read something about the sale of the B-17s that I never quite understood. What I read somewhere is that the Army tried to sell them for a reasonable price as planes, but were unsucessful. Then they decided to sell them much cheaper for the scrap metal and gasoline in them. What I read, was that when they sold for scrap, that there was a stipulation that the planes had to be scrapped, and could not be restored for flight. Ie the only planes that were saved were those sold prior to the decision to scrap. Anyway, if the above is true, I'm curious about what possible reason would the government have for saying that the planes couldn't be restored for flight? Only thing I can think of is that they were trying to protect the aircraft industry from an influx of dirt cheap planes? In any event, sad that more of them couldn't have been saved. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From Jprencher@aol.com Tue Feb 26 03:39:51 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:39:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 First aid Kits Message-ID: <18a.3ec226d.29ac5d87@aol.com> Dave. I really don't know why it didn't freeze or what the freezing point of morphine is. Maybe it was in Ethel alcohol or propylene glycol. Sorry Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Tue Feb 26 03:33:00 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:33:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack R. and Kingman Message-ID: <21.19a53aad.29ac5bec@aol.com> Hi Kevin, I've got a lot of e-mail tonight so this will be brief. In a way Kingman was a very sad site... I don't know who owned the land but I would guess the US Government. It was just bare ground with no water so no one but maybe a few coyotes lived there. The planes were parked wing tip to wing tip for probably 3 miles or so. That would be 9 square miles. They were in rows with room for trucks and equipment to go between the rows. They would drain the gasoline out and cut the engines off c with cutting torches and let them fall on the ground. They were after the scrap aluminum. They would sell single engine (P51, P47, etc for $700. Multi engine B25,B17, B24, P38s were $1200. Some were old war wearies that were junk. Some were factory new. We had a rule they were not supposed to scrap a plane with less than 35 hours on it. We had verbal orders to fly around getting there until we had 35 hours on them. I soon wised up to what they wanted and just took the new ones there and padded the time on the log books. I took a few new B32s (Consolidated answer to the B29) There that had 10 or 15 hours total time. They had big 4 row radials on them. They cut them up too. There was no market for them and no use for them. Some eastern firm bought them all from the US. I understand they sold the gasoline for more than they paid for all of them. I don't know how long they were there I was through there a few year later and they were all gone and the site looked like high dessert again and I suppose the coyotes were back. When we got there we park the bird got in a jeep and got on a transport to go someplace and get another one. I took and saw several planes there I had flown missions in. It was a bit sad for me, I later met a lovely lady, got married and got over it most of the time. Best Wishes, Jack From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Tue Feb 26 18:05:35 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:05:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] LETTERS HOME--censoring Message-ID: <000501c1bef0$31156a00$54bb9ace@mjpmtman> DAVE T.--- Haven't seen an answer to your question yet. I am not sure but I think the officers were responsible for censoring their own letters. In one of the letters a while back one of the forum members mentioned that he censored his own crew's letters. If memory serves me correctly our Supply Officer, Capt Joseph Freedman censored The Air Corps Supply letters---------Maurice Paulk From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 27 05:37:05 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:37:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] LETTERS HOME--censoring Message-ID: <187.3fdb8dc.29adca81@aol.com> Dave T As far as I know the pilot or copilot censored their crews mail. It was a job I hated. We censored anything that would be of benefit to the Germans for their intelligence or they could use in their propaganda efforts or for interrogating prisoners of War. Best Wishes, Jack From wheller@attglobal.net Wed Feb 27 07:11:01 2002 From: wheller@attglobal.net (William Heller) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:11:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] LETTERS HOME--censoring References: <187.3fdb8dc.29adca81@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C7C8684.9B0D67F9@attglobal.net> Jack aka Mr. President ... A fellow pilot who went overseas with me was shot down while flying in another Group. He had been born in Russia. When he was interrogated by the Germans, he was put in a room which got very hot. He even laid on the floor so he could breathe cooler air. When the German guard took him back for more interrogation, he complained about the heated room being torturously hot. The German interrogator looked at him, and in perfect English (since he was born in Baltimore) said, "Lt., the Geneva Convention says our rooms must be heated, but it does NOT say how HOT!" Then, still in perfect English, the German guard said, "We know you came overseas with your good friend, Lt. William Heller. He is in the 303rd Bomb Group now. He has two cousins in the Luftwaffe and he lived for a short time in Germany when he was very very young." This latter amazed me, but it was EXACTLY how the Germans used what little they could glean in their "spying" so as to use it to disarm fellows like my friend. My friend told me after the war ... he came to Molesworth to visit me when he was liberated ... he said, "When I heard all that they knew about you, I just gave up and answered all their questions because they already knew the answers to the questions they were asking me!? So maybe censoring mail was a good idea ... even if it prevented just giving them info like what happened to my friend. By the way, his name was William Kaczaraba. He is now deceased. He was born in Russia and came to the US as a little boy and was a Ship Degauzer before joining the Air Corps. We were friends in our Provisional Group in training mostly because he could also speak German. He came from Summerville, NJ where he moved from Russia. Glad to hear of your opinion on the Collings Foundation. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Dave T > As far as I know the pilot or copilot censored their crews mail. It was > a job I hated. We censored anything that would be of benefit to the Germans > for their intelligence or they could use in their propaganda efforts or for > interrogating prisoners of War. > Best Wishes, > Jack From b.runnels@att.net Wed Feb 27 14:02:03 2002 From: b.runnels@att.net (b.runnels@att.net) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:02:03 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] letters home Message-ID: <20020227140204.ODRY11747.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> We censored mail for good reasons. However, I don't recall having to block out very much in the letters I saw. All knew of the restrictions and for the most part adhered to them. Most letters were about family matters, letters received from relatives and friends, a week-end in London etc. The v-mail format restricted to a degree the length of letters so we used the space for more personal things. There were times when you wanted to say more but didn't. Like the time my crew was lost in a mid- air collision near Leipzig. I wanted to tell my family that I was not with them that day and that I was okay. I couldn't say that so I wrote a letter immediately, underscored the date and simply stated that it had been a tough day but that I was fine. My family did receive a call from one of the mothers when she received a "missing in action" notice about her son. My letter served the purpose when my sister had the presence of mind to check the date on my letter. She knew I was okay. Bill Runnels From todd.hollritt@attws.com Wed Feb 27 16:36:30 2002 From: todd.hollritt@attws.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:36:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] AAADD Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A999@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hi everyone, "Some" of you might be able to relate to this, is this the typical "Mission" for an 8th USAAF Veteran today? I hope not! But, I've seen my Dad have days exactly like this! :) Todd (303rd A637) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: A.A.A.D.D. A diagnosis for my condition has recently been found. Hooray! I have recently been diagnosed with A.A.A.D.D. ~ Age-Activated Attention Deficit Disorder. This is how is goes . . . I decide to wash the car. I start toward the garage and notice the mail on the table. O.K., I'm going to wash the car. But first, I'm going to go through the mail. I lay the car keys on the desk, discard the junk mail and I notice the trashcan is full. O.K., I'll just put the bills on my desk and take the trashcan out. Since I'm going to be near the mailbox anyway, I'll pay these bills first. Now, where is my checkbook? Oops, there's only one check left. My extra checks are in my desk. Oh, there's the Coke I was drinking. I'm going to look for those checks. But first I need to put my Coke further away from the computer. Oh, maybe I'll pop it into the fridge to keep it cold for a while. I head towards the kitchen and my flowers catch my eye. They need some water. I set the Coke on the counter, and uh, oh! There are my glasses I was looking for all morning! I'd better put them away first. I fill a container with water and head for the flower! pots. Aaaaaagh! Someone left the TV remote in the kitchen. We'll never think to look in the kitchen tonight when we want to watch television so I'd better put it back in the family room where it belongs. I splash some water into the pots and onto the floor. I throw the remote onto a soft cushion on the sofa and head back down the hall trying to figure out what it was I was going to do! End of day: The car isn't washed, the bills are unpaid, the Coke is sitting on the kitchen counter, the flowers are half watered, the checkbook still has only one check in it, and I can't seem to find my car keys! When I try to figure out how come nothing got done today, I'm baffled because I KNOW I was busy all day long! I realize this is a serious condition, and I'll get help, but first, I think I'll check my 303rd BG e-mail ... Please send this to everyone you know, because I don't remember to whom I've sent it! From wejones@megalink.net Wed Feb 27 17:30:58 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:30:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] letters home In-Reply-To: <20020227140204.ODRY11747.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > There were times when you wanted to say > more but didn't. Like the time my crew was lost in a mid- > air collision near Leipzig. I wanted to tell my family > that I was not with them that day and that I was okay. I > couldn't say that so I wrote a letter immediately, > underscored the date and simply stated that it had been > a tough day but that I was fine. I get the impression that most of you must have had ways of conveying information in letters without actually writing it. I got one nice letter from a widow of a man who flew with my father, and she said that she didn't get much info in the letters, but that she had a code worked out with her husband whereby whenever he flew a mission, he would send her a copy of Stars&Stripes, and had some way of using it to give her information about what was happening. Somehow, I managed to lose all the letters that my father had written to my mother, but I do have all the letters that she sent to him (you'd think it would be the other way around). I get the feeling that they had some kind of code also, because she would say something like "do I understand that you are switching to the 2nd job that we talked about?", so they must have pre-discussed things, and just referred to past conversations. I also got the impression that my mother must have been very aware of what was going on from newspapers, and was telling him what she thought was going on, apparently in hopes that he would confirm or deny in some way. It also seemed like she had no idea when he was coming home, because there were several letters written during the time that he was en-route back to the states after VE-day, wondering whether he would be coming home or going on to Japan. These letters apparently went all the way to England, then turned around and came back, so my father didn't get them till he was home. I really wish I could find the letters that my father wrote, but I think I lost them a few years ago when I moved. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Thu Feb 28 00:32:23 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:32:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] letters home Message-ID: Bill: You should go to the library and get into the microfische newspapers from the period. The newspapers on the homefront have very vivid accounts of missions with write ups on individuals that performed admirably. Home town papers would track the progess of "their boys." Since there were no direct phone lines to the US from Europe, news was slow to find its way home. Quickest way was by air from what I understand and that could have taken two to three days. I am always curious about the amount of information contained in these newspaper reports. The information names the city and even the specific target and sometimes the specific campaign. I did find reference in one paper that mentioned Crossbow by name. I know there was something like the War Information Office that handled virtually all media releases and goverend what could and could be portrayed in movies, but this detailed information I am sure could have been used by the enemy. Does anyone have any other comments on the issue? Cheers Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] letters home >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:30:58 -0500 > > > > There were times when you wanted to say > > more but didn't. Like the time my crew was lost in a mid- > > air collision near Leipzig. I wanted to tell my family > > that I was not with them that day and that I was okay. I > > couldn't say that so I wrote a letter immediately, > > underscored the date and simply stated that it had been > > a tough day but that I was fine. > >I get the impression that most of you must have had ways of >conveying information in letters without actually writing it. >I got one nice letter from a widow of a man who flew with my father, >and she said that she didn't get much info in the letters, but that >she had a code worked out with her husband whereby whenever he >flew a mission, he would send her a copy of Stars&Stripes, and >had some way of using it to give her information about what was >happening. > > Somehow, I managed to lose all the letters that my father had >written to my mother, but I do have all the letters that she sent to >him (you'd think it would be the other way around). I get the feeling >that they had some kind of code also, because she would say >something like "do I understand that you are switching to the 2nd >job that we talked about?", so they must have pre-discussed >things, and just referred to past conversations. > I also got the impression that my mother must have been very >aware of what was going on from newspapers, and was telling him >what she thought was going on, apparently in hopes that he would >confirm or deny in some way. > It also seemed like she had no idea when he was coming home, >because there were several letters written during the time that he >was en-route back to the states after VE-day, wondering whether >he would be coming home or going on to Japan. These letters >apparently went all the way to England, then turned around and >came back, so my father didn't get them till he was home. > I really wish I could find the letters that my father wrote, but I >think I lost them a few years ago when I moved. > > > > > > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From RoyAudry651@aol.com Thu Feb 28 04:42:18 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:42:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: First Aid Kits Message-ID: <156.9ab7521.29af0f2a@aol.com> I was never in a situation that called for the use of one of the kits--but this may help in answering some questions--yes at bombing altitudes the temperature was well below zero, sometimes to -54. I have a nephew ,a graduate organic chemist and now in Pharmacy 3rd year, his info is that morphine sulfate was probably in an aqueous solution with probably a few percentage of ethyl alcohol or eythlene glycol, which would not keep it from freezing, his experience in the National Guard medics did not present any occasions to use. I recall that in one of the Jam Handy Training films for cold weather applications such as high altitude, you were to stick the syringette under your armpit and then you could pop it in your mouth to finish. Today I was at a weekly luncheon of the Minn. Chapter of 8th AF Historical and tried the question on about 45 of the guys there, their response was to start under the armpit and if that was too slow switch to finish warming it in the mouth. Also heard from one of the men, who had worked at a B-17 modification base that at one time the base was removing high pressure oxygen tanks from planes coming off the line and replacing with low pressure tanks. Bullet or flak hits to a high pressure tank could make the tank take off like a rocket. LeRoy Christenson From DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM Thu Feb 28 17:23:21 2002 From: DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:23:21 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: First Aid Kits Message-ID: Leroy, What is a Jam Handy Training film? Dave -----Original Message----- From: RoyAudry651@aol.com [SMTP:RoyAudry651@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:42 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: First Aid Kits I was never in a situation that called for the use of one of the kits--but this may help in answering some questions--yes at bombing altitudes the temperature was well below zero, sometimes to -54. I have a nephew ,a graduate organic chemist and now in Pharmacy 3rd year, his info is that morphine sulfate was probably in an aqueous solution with probably a few percentage of ethyl alcohol or eythlene glycol, which would not keep it from freezing, his experience in the National Guard medics did not present any occasions to use. I recall that in one of the Jam Handy Training films for cold weather applications such as high altitude, you were to stick the syringette under your armpit and then you could pop it in your mouth to finish. Today I was at a weekly luncheon of the Minn. Chapter of 8th AF Historical and tried the question on about 45 of the guys there, their response was to start under the armpit and if that was too slow switch to finish warming it in the mouth. Also heard from one of the men, who had worked at a B-17 modification base that at one time the base was removing high pressure oxygen tanks from planes coming off the line and replacing with low pressure tanks. Bullet or flak hits to a high pressure tank could make the tank take off like a rocket. LeRoy Christenson