From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 1 03:38:50 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:38:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: Why was 20-25 thousand feet considered to an optimal altitude for Heavy Bombers? Experience and history indicate that it was not to be beyond the range of fighter defense, nor flak barrages. At those altitudes the bomber crews were exposed to debilitating extremes of temperature, and the vital necessity for contained oxygen supplies ( in addition to other equipment). Contrails developing from engine exhaust easily betrayed the position, heading, and altitude of the formations. Hindsight does not resurrect, nor correct: it simply provides perspective. ( 1st question of 3 for February, 2002) As ever, thank you all for anything you can explain, or may care to comment on. Lloyd Grant 427th son. From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 1 15:51:37 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:51:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: <22.22ee3cb5.298c1389@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, Your question for 3 Feb 2002 has in my humble opinion has several false and misleading assumptions. (1) The question itself brings up the first one. Who said that 20-25000 feet was the optimal altitude for heavy bombers? The B17 & B24 both were heavy bombers as were the Lancaster and Halifax. Certainly the B17 had a higher optimal altitude than the B24 and both's were higher than the latter two (2) Contrails easily betrayed our position heading and altitude. Perhaps a bit to the civilians, but the German gunners were to busy with their radar to pay any attention to the contrails. (3) If we had flown our first daylight mission low enough we would have not have needed Oxygen we would have had no second one. We would all have been shot down on the first one. Now the Big answer. It took about 20 seconds for an 88 MM projectile to get to 20-25000 feet. In 20 seconds we would travel over one mile. That means they would have to lead us over one mile. If we changed our course or altitude a few degrees or a few feet in that mile they would miss us. Unless they guessed right which they did sometimes or put up a barrage which they did sometimes. In fact nearly all times on some targets. (4) Your word "debilitating" is and awfully big word for me to comment on, but we were not very easily debilitated. We were the Mighty 8th Air Force. What altitude would you suggest now that we have hindsight and perspective? Best Wishes Lloyd, Jack Rencher From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 18:04:57 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:04:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Jack: You wrote something to Lloyd and said soemthing I do not understand. You said the contrails gave away your altitude. How? Did it just make the Groups, Wings and Divisions more visible to the German gunners or would the contrails return an echo to German radar? I have read that some of the early raids on the submarine pens were at low altitude - 12,000 to 14,000 feet - and German flak was much more accurate, as you described the leading process. The Forts had a service ceiling somewhere around 33,000 feet and from what I have understood in this forum, you did not fly at those altitudes because the aircraft was very heavy and the air thinned out even more at that altitude making the flight controls mushy. One more question for our group: Did temperature play a factor in bombing altitude? Was there a temerature where the heavies couldn't operate? I know temps. got to 60 below F and that never stopped you. Thanks! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: palidin@worldnet.att.net, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:51:37 EST > >Friend Lloyd, > Your question for 3 Feb 2002 has in my humble opinion has several >false >and misleading assumptions. (1) The question itself brings up the first >one. >Who said that 20-25000 feet was the optimal altitude for heavy bombers? The >B17 & B24 both were heavy bombers as were the Lancaster and Halifax. >Certainly the B17 had a higher optimal altitude than the B24 and both's >were >higher than the latter two >(2) Contrails easily betrayed our position heading and altitude. Perhaps a >bit to the civilians, but the German gunners were to busy with their radar >to >pay any attention to the contrails. (3) If we had flown our first daylight >mission low enough we would have not have needed Oxygen we would have had >no >second one. We would all have been shot down on the first one. Now the Big >answer. It took about 20 seconds for an 88 MM projectile to get to >20-25000 >feet. In 20 seconds we would travel over one mile. That means they would >have to lead us over one mile. If we changed our course or altitude a few >degrees or a few feet in that mile they would miss us. Unless they guessed >right which they did sometimes or put up a barrage which they did >sometimes. >In fact nearly all times on some targets. (4) Your word "debilitating" is >and >awfully big word for me to comment on, but we were not very easily >debilitated. We were the Mighty 8th Air Force. What altitude would you >suggest now that we have hindsight and perspective? > Best Wishes Lloyd, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From demcnamara@CI.WASCO.CA.US Fri Feb 1 19:38:27 2002 From: demcnamara@CI.WASCO.CA.US (Dennis McNamara) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:38:27 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Thomas McClure Message-ID: <301CF82F5778AC419B2A0C077D239B12E5C6@MAIL.CI.WASCO.CA.US> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My uncle 1st Lt Thomas McClure trained B-17 pilots at Minter Field (Ca) before he was shipped oversees. Does anyone have any pictures or memories of him as an instructor or pilot. His B-17 was shot down and he was interred in Switzerland. Thanks in advance for your help =20 Dennis McNamara Assistant Planner City of Wasco demcnamara@ci.wasco.ca.us (661) 758-7210 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My uncle 1st Lt Thomas McClure trained = B-17 pilots at Minter Field (Ca) before he was shipped oversees. Does anyone = have any pictures or memories of him as an instructor or pilot. His B-17 was shot down and he was interred in = Switzerland.

Thanks in advance for your = help

 

Dennis McNamara

Assistant Planner

City of = Wasco

demcnamara@ci.wasco.ca.us

(661) 758-7210

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1AB58.0539C3DC-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 1 20:13:51 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:13:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitudes Message-ID: Gentlemen, Thank you all. Sometimes the obvious answer is indeed the simplest to understand. I am reminded that there are no stupid questions ( though this one might have taxed the boundaries of that rule a shade). If I learn something from asking an ignorant question, I'll take my thumps. I learned something. I appreciate your remarks and comments. Lloyd. From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 1 20:50:00 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:50:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: <138.8af08ea.298c5978@aol.com> Friend Kevin' I was quoting a letter Lloyd wrote about the contrails. See if you can bring up the letter Lloyd wrote and you will understand I think. It was headed (303rd-talk Altitudes) I think we did not fly missions at 33,000 feet, because it would have taken so long with a full load and used so much fuel to get up there we would have not had enough fuel to get home. I have been up there (Not on a mission) and I don't think the mushy controls would have been a serious factor. Over speeding the turbos would probably be a potential problem as would the bends in some of the crew members. As far as I know low temperatures never got so low we couldn't operate. Now if it got to 100 degrees up there it would be a different story C or F. If you don't find Lloyds letter let me know and I will explain further. Thanks Kevin, Best Wishes, Jack From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 00:36:15 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:36:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Jack: Found the letter and understand. Very interesting about the overspeeding of the superchargers at higher altitudes. Would you mind explaining this a bit more, not real clear on it. Is it because the superchargers would have had to work harder at those altitudes to squeeze enough compressed air into the engine - the higher you go the faster the turbos? Thanks a bunch, you are a great help to us "youngsters!" Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com, palidin@worldnet.att.net, >303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:50:00 EST > >Friend Kevin' > I was quoting a letter Lloyd wrote about the contrails. See if you >can >bring > up the letter Lloyd wrote and you will understand I think. It was headed >(303rd-talk Altitudes) > I think we did not fly missions at 33,000 feet, because it would have >taken so long with a full load and used so much fuel to get up there we >would >have not had enough fuel to get home. I have been up there (Not on a >mission) and I don't think the mushy controls would have been a serious >factor. Over speeding the turbos would probably be a potential problem as >would the bends in some of the crew members. > As far as I know low temperatures never got so low we couldn't >operate. >Now if it got to 100 degrees up there it would be a different story C or F. > If you don't find Lloyds letter let me know and I will explain >further. > Thanks Kevin, Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Jprencher@aol.com Sat Feb 2 04:12:18 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:12:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Jack, RE: Altitudes Message-ID: Kevin, you are right on. As I remember the maximum speed of the rotors in the turbo superchargers was 33,000 RPM. That is 550 revolution per second. Remember they are operating in the very hot exhaust and are red or white hot when we were pulling high power like on take off. We had no way of KNOWING their speed. If they flew apart from over speeding the buckets flew off like a machine gun from the tremendous centrifugal force. They could chew a plane up like a machine gun. At high altitude where the air was thin they had to turn faster to pump more of the thin air to maintain the desired manifold pressure. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From s.oudshoorn@zonnet.nl Sat Feb 2 17:38:44 2002 From: s.oudshoorn@zonnet.nl (S. Oudshoorn) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:38:44 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships References: <0.10005332.152557300-1463792638-1012143719@topica.com> <002301c1a759$9f7ecda0$f091c8cf@home> Message-ID: <002a01c1ac10$76958850$0200a8c0@Basher82> Hello Mr. Alton and Mr. Jones, Thank you very much for your insights. They are very much appreciated. Going over the records I have available to me right now, I see that 94BG lead 3AD this day. They flew with two PFF ships (indeed the lead and deputy ships). Apparantly the 482BG supplied these ships. As far as I can ascertain, the 447BG flew in a composite Group with both 94BG and the 390BG, as well as flying in a group formation entirely made up of the 447th. The 447th did apparantly NOT fly with any PFF ships. That would fit in with Bill Jones's info, I guess, without wanting to suggest that Mr. Alton's info would be incorrect. But of course, there are a lot of records I still need to receive and study. Both your comments on the use of PFF ships have enlightened me on the use of these ships however. I do need to do some serious studying on the organizational side of the 8th Air Force. Any suggestions on books, etc. regarding this? Kind regards, Stevin PS: Please excuse me for my delayed response. My ISP (who actually does not deserve to have the letters isp capitalized) needed over four (4) days to do maintanance work. I still haven't recieved any e-mails that might have sent to me during the last four days. Neither have I ben able to sent e-mails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: ; "HeavyBombers.com" Cc: <381st_BGMA@topica.com>; "303rd Bomb Group Talk List" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > Hi Stevin, > There was no set rule for a certain number of Pathfinder Force (PFF) > ships. In the time you are talking about, and especially for Jan. 11, > 1944, a maximum effort was the order of the day, and most groups would > have had 3 PPF bombers assigned to them. > I am just going by memory on this, but trying to flip though a few books > at the same time. In the winter of 43-44, losses were very heavy. The > Jan. 11, 1944 mission to hit the fighter and aircraft factories, was one > of the first maximum efforts that the 8AF was able to field. Losses in > Oct., Nov., and December of 1943 had been very heavy. In order to put up > a maximum effort, the deleted bomb groups of the 1st Air Division had to > throw almost every plane available just to field the 3 squadrons needed > for a normal mission. Max. effort usually meant that the BGs would field > 4 squadrons. The fourth squadrons this day were a "composite" squadron, > made up of planes from all 4 squadrons. This went for all of the Air > Divisions this day : losses meant that composite squadrons would be > scraped up from different squadrons, groups, CBWings, and even on a > divisional level, in order to scrape up enough planes. > The BG that supplied most of the 1st Division PFF aircraft was the 381st > BG. Heavy previous losses, and horrible losses to the 381st this day, > meant that each group did not get four PPF aircraft, one for each > squadron. Later on, after Big Week in February, and the big buildups > leading to D-Day, training and planes started to catch up to needs again. > I'm afraid I can't help you much with specifics on the 3rd Air Division > (AD). I just don't know it as well as the 1st AD, but they were set up in > much the same way. > So, if I have you good and mixed up by now, don't feel that it is you, or > I, who can't figure it out. Basically it went like this: > Maximum effort meant sending up four squadrons for every Bomb Group, and > four groups for every CBWing. Therefore, that would call for 16 PFF > crews, and at this stage of the game, there just weren't that many to be > had. So, what was available went first to the leading CBW, and they would > assign what was available to the leading BG, who in turn would assign > resources to the leading BS. > Does this make sense to you? It would take a lot of work to document just > where each PFF plane went on a certain day. By the time June 6th (DDay) > came, most of these needs could be filled by new crews, and new planes. > On Jan. 11, 1944, there were not enough planes and crews. Bad weather > that day as well, resulted in missed targets (91BG), recalls (3rd AD had > some), and some very accurate bombing (the 381st did well here). > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K2W3 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > phone 250-537-5913 > "Please remember those who gave so much > for the freedom we enjoy this day." > **************************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "HeavyBombers.com" > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 3:55 PM > Subject: [HeavyBombers] number of PFF ships > > Gents, > > > > I wonder how many PFF ships would fly on a maximum effort mission? And > where > > would they fly? Seems to me in the Lead Sqn, Lead Group, Lead Wing.... > > I am particularly interested in the January 11, 1944 mission to > > Oschersleben, Braunschweig and Halberstadt. 3 big targets (Aircraft > > Industry). > > I know 3AD had the 94th Flying lead with two PFF ships from the > 482BG.... > > Can anyone shine a light on the use of PFF ships on this level (wing, > AD)? > > Thanks you! > > Stevin Oudshoorn > > From tailgunnerson@uniserve.com Sat Feb 2 19:14:05 2002 From: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:14:05 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PFF References: <0.10005332.152557300-1463792638-1012143719@topica.com> <002301c1a759$9f7ecda0$f091c8cf@home> <002a01c1ac10$76958850$0200a8c0@Basher82> Message-ID: <002701c1ac1d$ee911880$e891c8cf@tailgunnerson> Hi Stevin, Don't worry about correcting me if I'm wrong. It hardly ever happens (the crowd lets out a groan). Seriously, the 482nd was the supplier of PFF ships. They lead navigators came all groups, but the 381st supplied a lot of them, and so did the 91st, and the 351st, etc. The reason for this is that they were there in Europe first, and had the training to lead either at squadron or group level. As the air war progressed, the squadrons depended less and less on the bombadier, and instead put a togglier in the same position. The togglier's job was to watch the lead ship (which was sometimes a PFF ship) and "toggle" his bombs when the lead plane did. A PFF navigator or bombadier was often pulled from his group and sent to a special training school. For a few days or weeks, they would be subjected to some very intense training, in the latest methods, such as: -GEE (ground electronic) Box, -radar, -H2X -special radio aids (short wave, VHF, long wave, IFF - identify friend or foe, Darky - emergency, QDM - compass course heading to base) , -buncher beacons With the proper training a lead navigator, whether part of the PFF or not, could lead his squadron, group, or division to within 25 feet of a ground target (GEE) So, depending on where the groups were going, and where the PFF crews were stationed, they could come from the 381st, stay with the 91st, which was leading the division.....or a 482nd crew might be assigned to lead the 94th, and stay with them for a few days even, because of weather, or something like that. So, you can see that it could take a few months of study for you or I to find out just who did what, and where, and when. Then, in the next month, a command from higher up could change the whole situation. For instance, if recognicance photos were studied over a period of time, and it was learned that for absolute precision, a visual method was the best for a certain type of target, like an airfield or factory, then someone who specialized in that type of navigation would be assigned to the lead group. Again, with the study of photos revealed that targets on a coastline could be hit accurately enough just by using radar (and this was true through a lot of 1943), then a PFF plane and crew might not be needed, as many navigators could hit a target along a coastline without too much trouble. If a joint exercise were carried out, such as the heavily industrialized Ruhr valley, 3 or 4 PFF crews could lead 3 or 4 squadronss along a fairly easy flight path, crossing 3 or 4 targets, with each squadron dropping on a different target. One could go up one step, and instead of squadrons, a whole group would drop on one target, and then a little further on, another group in the same CBW(combat wing) would hit another target. Sometimes the whole combat wing would hit the same target. The number of planes and crews changed very much from the start of the daylight bombing campaign, until the end of the war. More planes, more crews, more training.......and more PFF crews - they changed from day to day, as did the targets. I wasn't trying to be too specific the other day. If you want to contact some people from the 3rd AD, or the 94th BG, get in touch with this man: Mort Robinson robbie94@pacbell.net He is the membership chairman. I belong to the auxiliary assoc., but they are not near as active in things like the groups I belong to in the 1st AD. He may be able to help you out more. If you want to get in touch with someone about navigation, and PFF forces, then try: John Howland jhowland@sat.net Feel free to use my name to introduce yourself to them. Both men are more than happy to help out. John was a member of the 381stBG at Ridgewell. As his experience and training progressed, and as PFF, later became part of the 91stBG at Bassingbourn (his papers said he was still with the 381st), he took some of his training at Chelveston, home of the 305thBG.....see what I mean about this not being easy to pin down? On June 6th, John Howland and 17 other PFF groups took off from Bassingbourn, and scattered themselves amongst the various BGs of the 1st AD. John headed for the 381st that day. He had already flown on June 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Everything was building up for the big one : "it". Everyone knew what it meant the officers said to men all over England that evening, the 5th, that tomorrow was "it". D-Day. John led one group of 18 planes over Gold Beach and dropped through clouds using GEE. No one saw their targets that day, because of the cloud layers over the whole of the invasion area. This day they were lucky. The Germans sent up no fighters, and flak was scarce to none. The total effective bombers that day were 1622. Only 4 bombers were missing in action at the end of the day. 4852 tons of bombs were dropped. I've digressed a little bit, but I hope it helps you to understand a bit of the jobs of the PFF crews. If you want some suggestions for books, the best by far of how the air war progressed over time in all three ADs, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is : Mighty Eighth War Diary, by Roger Freeman. I hope this helps you out a little more, Stevin. My earlier post was written in a bit of a hurry. Cheers, mate. Gordy "tailgunnerson" BC, Can. "Please remember those who gave so much for the freedom we enjoy this day." From RoyAudry651@aol.com Mon Feb 4 04:42:26 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:42:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K Rations Message-ID: <55.21fbbad8.298f6b32@aol.com> A previous comment and question about K rations. As I recall, we flew a new B-17 from Lincoln Neb to England and we did have on board extra K rations. The plotted flight course took us over Newfoundland and to Laborador ( where we spent about 10 days weathering out a severe snow storm, snow was piled up to the second story windows of the wooden barracks), from there the flight was over the ice cap of Greenland. A number of planes did go down on the ice cap, so we had those rations plus additional gear for survival, including special dark goggles to protect against snow blindess if we did end up on the ice and snow. We did get feed in Goose Bay but the rations were good snacks. The chocolate bars when shaved into heated powdered milk made a good drink. The cheese and bacon was very good tasteing and a favorite snack. A point of interset to this--the instant coffee was package here in Minneapolis, MN, probably some of the other foods. This was a natural because the K ration was developed by a researcher here at the U. of Minnesota in a laboratory housed inside the football stadium. With tongue in cheek I say that's probably why they were such a favorite collectible item. LeRoy Christenson 359yj Sgdn From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Mon Feb 4 17:54:17 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:54:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: K Rations References: <20020204170534.9CEAE53AFA@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001001c1ada4$f84ca960$65bb9ace@mjpmtman> Thank you LeRoy.-- Never thought about making hot chocolate with powdered milk. It could have been done if we would have thought about it We used to get coffee & sugar. [100 lbs at a time.]. from the "back door" of the mess hall. I drank my coffee black but I seem to remember there was a box or can of powdered milk on the shelf in the reparable section shack. After the NAAFI pulled off the base we missed our "tea time" and set up our own in the reparable shack -- a "remodeled" wing panel box. Like you the cheese and bacon seemed to be the overall favorite. As the old song says "Thanks For The Memories"---Maurice Paulk +++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: RoyAudry651@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K Rations ...... the rations were good snacks. The chocolate bars when shaved into heated powdered milk made a good drink. The cheese and bacon was very good tasteing and a favorite snack.---- LeRoy Christenson 359yj Sgdn From RoyAudry651@aol.com Tue Feb 5 03:31:37 2002 From: RoyAudry651@aol.com (RoyAudry651@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:31:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE K-Rations Message-ID: <70.174783cb.2990ac19@aol.com> I should have added further explaination, if it is of interest to former and/or present consumers of the meal in a box. The researcher was Dr. Ancel Keys (thus the designation K). His program worked with conscientious objectors who were put thru strenous work and exercise regimes and then fed special test diets to find which components would provide the needed calories, carbos, minerals, fats, protein to sustain a soldier under combat conditions--sans field kitchens or mess halls. also flyers on sustained flights ( this should make the above fit the format of the talk room) LeRoy C. From Thor542086@aol.com Tue Feb 5 03:44:32 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:44:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Col. Francies Gabreski Message-ID: <132.88bd38b.2990af20@aol.com> --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was one of the top U.S. Army fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew P-47's. Do any of you men remember him or ever meet him? This would be interesting to know. Terry Lucas --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit        Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was one of the top U.S. Army fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew P-47's. Do any of you men remember him or ever meet him? This would be interesting to know.

Terry Lucas --part1_132.88bd38b.2990af20_boundary-- From fory@galesburg.net Wed Feb 6 00:17:56 2002 From: fory@galesburg.net (Fory Barton) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:17:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski Message-ID: <000c01c1aea3$bac72480$d79a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight = Training School at Lackland AFB. He was a great guy and nice to talk with. Sorry to hear of his demise. Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 = when he=20 visited the Preflight Training School at Lackland AFB.
He was a great guy and nice to talk=20 with.
Sorry to hear of his = demise.
 
Fory Barton
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AE71.6F5BA8E0-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 6 01:10:24 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:10:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More questions about "hung bombs" Message-ID: How frequent was the incidence of a bomb(s) getting hung up at the release point? What was the usual cause? How soon after forming up were the bombs armed? Who was responsible for arming them? What mechanism, or, combination of mechanisms were involved? Thank you . **** special thanks to Jack Rencher, Bill Heller, and Bill Runnels and others who responded to the question concerning " Optimum Altitude". Your remarks were very helpful to my understanding. Lloyd Grant 427th son. From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 6 01:26:58 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:26:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski In-Reply-To: <000c01c1aea3$bac72480$d79a46c6@computer> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those of you who may not have seen it, there is a two hour episode that is often repeated on both, PBS and the History Channel and narrated by “Gabby” Gabrenski telling his story about WWII. If you get a chance to see it, I recommend you cancel any other plans for the time it takes to watch it. *** me too; Mr. Barton Lloyd. Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski I met Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight Training School at Lackland AFB. He was a great guy and nice to talk with. Sorry to hear of his demise. Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For = those of you who may not have seen it, there is a two hour episode that is often = repeated on both, PBS and the History Channel and narrated by = “Gabby”  Gabrenski telling his story = about WWII.  If you get a chance = to see it, I recommend you cancel any other plans for the time it takes to = watch it.  =

*** me = too;  Mr. = Barton

 

Lloyd.

 

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabreski

 

I met = Col Gabreski in summer of 1954 when he visited the Preflight Training School = at Lackland AFB.

He = was a great guy and nice to talk with.<= /p>

Sorry = to hear of his demise.

 <= /p>

Fory = Barton<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1AE83.75EE8800-- From lvburl6@msn.com Wed Feb 6 03:29:54 2002 From: lvburl6@msn.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:29:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gabby, Great American Fighter Pilot Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding Col. Gabreski, I never knew him personally, but had coresponded by snail mail, and had s= poken to the Col. a few times, the most recent just about a month or so b= ack. He was a true gentleman. His war record confirms he was an efficien= t killer of the enemy as well. He got his start flying spitfires for the= Polish RAF squadron. The transition to the Thunderbolt was quite a stre= tch. He related to me the story of how the 56th FG decided to keep the P-= 47 even when the P-51 was made available to them. Bottom line the 56th wa= s very effective with the ol Jug, and why stir the pot. As many of you m= ay know the 56th was the highest scoring FG in the ETO, and Gabby was the= highest scoring of the group, and in fact in all the ETO. He had 31 kill= s in WWII, and 6.5 in F-86s in Korea. He has written a couple of books p= ublished by Shiffer, the most recent is really great. I count it a true= honor to have spoken with the man, and I am saddened at his passing. I = don't know how many of you 8th AF bomber guys may owe their life to a man= like Gabreski, but I imagine it's a few. Note I don't mean to take away= from your sacrifice, I owe my way of life to you all. Thanks, for what y= ou did. Lance Burrell, PS if you wanted to drop a note to his family his address is Col. Francis Gabreski 106 Ryder Ave. Huntington Station, NY 11746 ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding Col.= Gabreski,
I never knew him personally, but had coresponded by= snail mail, and had spoken to the Col. a few times, the most recent just= about a month or so back.  He was a true gentleman. His war record = confirms he was an efficient killer of the enemy as well.  He got hi= s start flying spitfires for the Polish RAF squadron.  The transitio= n to the Thunderbolt was quite a stretch. He related to me the story= of how the 56th FG decided to keep the P-47 even when the P-51 was made = available to them. Bottom line the 56th was very effective with the ol Ju= g, and why stir the pot.  As many of you may know the 56th was the h= ighest scoring FG in the ETO, and Gabby was the highest scoring of the gr= oup, and in fact in all the ETO. He had 31 kills in WWII, and 6.5 in = ;F-86s in Korea.  He has written a couple of books published by Shif= fer, the most recent is really great.   I count it a true honor= to have spoken with the man, and I am saddened at his passing. = ; I don't know how many of you 8th AF bomber guys may owe their life= to a man like Gabreski, but I imagine it's a few.  Note I don't mea= n to take away from your sacrifice, I owe my way of life to you all. Than= ks, for what you did.
Lance Burrell,
 
<= DIV>PS if you wanted to drop a note to his family his address is Col. Francis Gabreski
106 Ryder Ave.
Huntington = Station, NY 11746

------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1AE8C.40CE4940-- From jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 05:21:20 2002 From: jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com (jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:21:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction of new member Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am glad to be a member of the 303rd-talk list. I am the son of a WWII vet. My dad's name is Hubert Edward Miller. = He was the navigator for B-17 missions over Germany. He was a Capt. in = 1942. (His final rank was Lt. Col.). He was in the 358th group and was = part of Morales' Crew.=20 If anyone has any information on him or was part of the crew he was = on, please e-mail me at jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com Thanks Jim Miller = =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am glad to be a member of the 303rd-talk = list.
 
     I am the son of a WWII = vet.  My=20 dad's name is Hubert Edward Miller.  He was the navigator for B-17 = missions=20 over Germany.  He was a Capt. in 1942.  (His final rank = was Lt.=20 Col.).  He was in the 358th group and was part of Morales'=20 Crew. 
 
     If anyone has any = information on=20 him or was part of the crew he was on, please e-mail me at jim_laura_miller@hotmail.com=
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 Thanks
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; =20 Jim Miller    
 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1AE9B.D20E4900-- From thollritt@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 22:56:40 2002 From: thollritt@yahoo.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:56:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Col. Francies Gabreski Message-ID: <20020206225640.64977.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> > > From: Thor542086@aol.com > > Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:44:32 EST > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Col. Francies Gabreski > > > > Col. Francis Gabreski died Thursday. He was > > one of the top U.S. Army > > fighter pilots in WW2. He had 37 1/2 kills. He flew > > P-47's. Do any of you men > > remember him or ever meet him? This would be > > interesting to know. > > > > Terry Lucas Terry and All, Very sad news to hear that Col. Gabreski was amoung the 1000 WW II casualties Thusday. I had the honor of meeting Col."Gabby" Gabreski of the 56th Fighter Group at the Reading Pa. WW II weekend a few years back, he was very busy signing autographs and talking with visitors. I easedropped in while he was discussing how he was shot down and captured. He became a POW July 1944 after he buzzed Bassinhiem airfield near Koblenz a little too low, thats right,,, he shot himself down. Chewed up the field and struck a small knowl with his prop and bellied his P-47 in. On top of that he evaded capture for five days! His war end tally was 28 air victories and 3 on the ground. Todd- (303rd A-637) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From p51@1usa.com Thu Feb 7 14:45:47 2002 From: p51@1usa.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:45:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207094317.009fd5f0@home.1usa.com> I got this out of www.avweb.com Ed Frank "I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, AND I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN": One week ago, at 83 years of age, Col. Francis Gabreski passed on due to a heart attack. Gabreski flew a P-47 and had downed 31 enemy aircraft by the end of World War II. Flying an F-86 during the Korean conflict, he raised his tally to 37.5 air victories. By the time of his retirement from the Air Force in 1967, Gabreski had flown 266 combat missions, more than any other U.S. pilot, and was the highest-ranking living U.S. ace. If our new heroes shine, it is only in the shade cast by those who came before. In a new war, goodbye to an old war hero. From cooney@frontiernet.net Thu Feb 7 17:23:48 2002 From: cooney@frontiernet.net (cooney) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] war record Message-ID: <006401c1affc$34a91480$b2858542@frontiernet.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello=20 Was wondering if anyone in the 303rd would remember serving with my = father, James Cooney, in the S4 section 358th squadron while stationed = at Molesworth?=20 Thank you ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello =
 
Was wondering = if anyone in=20 the 303rd would remember serving with my father, James Cooney, in = the S4=20 section 358th squadron while stationed at Molesworth?
 
Thank=20 you
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1AFD2.4B3BFCA0-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 10 02:12:33 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:12:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When all the questions have been answered... Message-ID: There is a small round leather patch in the wall in front of me. On it is a painted symbol of a cartoon rabbit with its foot on a round bomb. It is the symbol of the 427th Sq. of the 303rd BG ( H ). The man that wore it is long since "gone home". He was very proud to have served with your outfit. I can tell that, because he flew two tours of combat. The last one was with a different Group. What he cherished was his memories of the guys he flew with when he was in the 303rd. As his son, I am the son of every man that served in the 303rd. I am lucky; I have many fathers now, and good memories of all of them. This, in it's small way, is a manner of telling you all, that I will never forget. "Thank you" does not come close enough. ( Gary, please let this one pass. I owe you. You call it, I'll pay it) Lloyd Grant Son of 2nd Lt. Lawrence H. Grant ( Nav.) 427th Sq. 303rd BG (H) Molesworth, England Donald Stockton crew, "Joe BTFSPLK II" # 42-24610 From Jprencher@aol.com Sun Feb 10 06:25:55 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:25:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] When all the questions have been answered... Message-ID: <66.1bcd0cda.29976c73@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd: Your last letter touched me. I didn't know about your Father. Thanks for telling us. You can ask all the bloody questions you want to. If I can't answer them, Harry Gobrecht or Bill Heller can Very Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From sakre1@yahoo.com Mon Feb 11 23:49:09 2002 From: sakre1@yahoo.com (sue akre) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:49:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <20020211234909.60293.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> i was trying to find my grandfather's infr when he was in the service. clifford leroy akre of the 303rd b-17 doper?????????? i do not know what all thats means. can you help??????????? suzanne akre __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From schnauzman@mindspring.com Tue Feb 12 19:48:39 2002 From: schnauzman@mindspring.com (Karen & Elizabeth Bailey-Summers) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:48:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attempting to locate old crew members Message-ID: <001c01c1b3fe$44fbc3e0$011656d1@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I have enjoyed reading the talk messages, and the whole site! You = have provided me with an abundance of information, and admiration. I am = hoping someone might be able to assist me now. I am attempting to = locate these crew members (for my father to get in touch with): T/Sgt Sidney T. Hardaway S/Sgt Ralph Boyd Adams S/Sgt Earl R. Howard S/Sgt Jack L. Perryman T/Sgt Robert G. York 1Lt. Robert P. Dwyer 2Lt. Lawrence C. Farrell If anybody knows how to get in touch with these men, I would appreciate = that information. Sincerely, Elizabeth Bailey-Summers ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!  I have enjoyed reading the = talk messages,=20 and the whole site!  You have provided me with an abundance of = information,=20 and admiration.  I am hoping someone might be able to assist me = now. =20 I am attempting to locate these crew members  (for my father to get = in=20 touch with):
  T/Sgt Sidney T. = Hardaway
  S/Sgt Ralph Boyd = Adams
  S/Sgt Earl R. = Howard
  S/Sgt Jack L. = Perryman
  T/Sgt Robert G. = York
  1Lt. Robert P. = Dwyer
  2Lt. Lawrence C. = Farrell
If anybody knows how to get in touch = with these=20 men, I would appreciate that information.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth = Bailey-Summers
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1B3D4.5B6D1A40-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Tue Feb 12 20:21:47 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:21:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE Message-ID: <000601c1b402$e635bbe0$0ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Sue -- Don't know how much this will help BUT In checking the personnel roster I find this information --Clifford Leroy Akre - 444th Sub-depot [A.D. = Air Depot] = T/sgt = ser.#17025331 MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. onee of them might have known your grandfather.The sheet metal metal worked in the Hangar and the paint & dope shop [I Believe] was in the hangar too. .With Gary Moncur's permission I will give you the E-mail of Robert Petersen, a sheet metal man living in CA. I was in the 444th - Air Corp Supply, as part of my job I probably issued paint & dope to his shop. From his serial number I can tell you that he enlisted from the 7th Corps area - Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska & Missouri [the first two digits of my serial no. are 17..... also] Maurice Paulk - in Nebraska From palidin@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 13 13:53:11 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:53:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gunners victories Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missions completed were depicted by bombs painted on the forward section of the aircraft. A question has arisen as to whether or not a symbol of some sort was painted on the aircraft to record a victory over an attacking enemy plane. If so, where on the plane would aerial combat scores be represented? I am also curious about the most number of enemy planes downed by single 303rd Bomber. Does anyone know the answer to that one? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Missions completed were = depicted by bombs painted on the forward section of the aircraft.  A question has arisen as to = whether or not a symbol of some sort was painted on the aircraft to record a = victory over an attacking enemy plane.  = If so, where on the plane would aerial combat scores be represented?  I am also curious about the = most number of enemy planes downed by single 303rd Bomber. Does anyone = know the answer to that one?

 

Thanks.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1B46B.DD94C760-- From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 15:31:01 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:31:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gunners victories Message-ID: <99.21beead0.299be0b5@aol.com> Lloyd, As far as I know, no symbols were painted on Bombers for the planes shot down nor were any records kept on the number of planes shot down by each bomber. The reasons for this are very simple. We flew in formations of several planes (usually 12, 13 or 16) When we were attacked several, perhaps all the planes fired at the attacking fighters. Several gunners on each aircraft usually fired at the same fighter. B17's shot down more enemy aircraft than any other allied plane, BUT because of the above, there was really no way to tell which gunner or which airplane in the formation actually shot down the enemy fighter. 12 planes and 36 gunners were shooting at him and he went down and most of them might be hitting him, how would anyone know whose bullet actually killed the pilot or blew a hole in his carburetor? Now to answer your question. NO. No one know the answer to that one and NO one that was really there wants to know. Best wishes Lloyd, Jack From wejones@megalink.net Wed Feb 13 16:43:13 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE In-Reply-To: <000601c1b402$e635bbe0$0ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. Maurice. I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- 17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. Just curious. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From bagnoli2@yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 19:33:54 2002 From: bagnoli2@yahoo.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:33:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020213170112.486C153974@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20020213193354.19926.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> As to the painting of symbols depicting downed enemy aircraft, I have one point for clarification. I've seen photos of planes with swastikas painted both on the noses and near the gunports. Did these represent downed aircraft? If not, what did they represent? Chuck Golden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 22:00:13 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:00:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs Message-ID: <125.bd79ae9.299c3bed@aol.com> Chuck ( And Lloyd) To clarify my previous letter. I was only talking about my own observations on Bombers. Specifically B17s. Lots of fighter type planes with one pilot knew when they shot down an enemy and usually had photo's to prove it. This was not the case when many gunners from one or more B17s were shooting at the same enemy. Fighters main job was shooting down airplanes so they painted swastika's on their planes when they got one. Bombers main job was dropping bombs on targets so we painted bombs on our birds when we dropped them I suppose any gunner could paint whatever he wanted to on his turret or near his muzzles but I don't think it was common practice. We flew to many different birds during our 35 or so missions. Best Wishes, Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Wed Feb 13 22:17:45 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE Message-ID: <44.1b022cee.299c4009@aol.com> Maurice. Dope is used on fabric planes because it shrinks the fabric, makes it tight and takes out all the winkles. It takes several coats and can be tinted different colors. Some metal planes had fabric control surfaces. I don't remember any on B17s but some early models could have or I could have forgotten. Some early Cessna's were metal and had Fabric coated wings. Some cars are metal and have no wings at all. They are very hard to get off the ground and then just for short flights. They put their dope in the drivers but they still have a very short range. Jack From tailgunnerson@uniserve.com Thu Feb 14 08:06:35 2002 From: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:06:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were any of you fellas ever trained at or stationed at Minter Field? I am looking for info on when things became activated, and what kind of training took place there. If you were ever based there, would you mind telling me what you remember? Thanks, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 ph. 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IiMIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAgAOAAAABQAAAAQA8gAB A5AGAGwMAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB AAAADQAAAE1pbnRlciBGaWVsZAAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwbUuaynAEflGINMR1ps2/MAB3G5I AAACAR0MAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlRBSUxHVU5ORVJTT05AVU5JU0VSVkUuQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAG DgAehUwutcEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAtya9kmr8ERvknmKtP8lUDCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQ AQAAAIsIAACHCAAA0BQAAExaRnU0ImeWAwAKAHJjcGcxMjVyMgxgYzEDMAEHC2BukQ4QMDMzDxZm ZQ+STwH3AqQDYwIAY2gKwHOEZXQC0XBycTIAAJIqCqFubxJQIDAB0IUB0DYPoDA1MDQUIfMB0BQQ NH0HbQKDAFAD1PsR/xMLYhPhFFATshj0FNCTBxMCgzI4EY4yMxphRRdyIAdtIENFGgQ5Txp/FEAb 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<14e.8ed8c98.299d4574@aol.com> Gordon; The undersigned went through Basic training at Minter Field Bakersfield California during the late summer of 1943. We trained in Vultee BT13's. My Instructor was Lt Dean P. Gilmore. He taught me more about flying and being a damn good pilot than any instructor I ever had. The head of the mess hall was a civilian named Cavanough. I'm not sure of the spelling. The food there was the finest I've ever had before or since. We started instrument and formation training there and continued our aerobatics. The BT13 had a fixed gear, 450 HP radial engine, two position Hamilton prop and was nicknamed quite appropriately a Vultee Vibrator. The early models were wood behind the rear cockpit. Now you know everything I know and everything you know so you are smarter than I. Am. They were drilling for oil nearby. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From dss97@aber.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 18:07:44 2002 From: dss97@aber.ac.uk (David Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:07:44 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Gunner's victories In-Reply-To: <20020213170112.A0C2F53981@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214180527.00ab86c0@pophost.aber.ac.uk> --=====================_19731335==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The painting of symbols on aircraft may not have been common in the USAAF but in RAF Bomber Command it was. Crews that managed to shoot down German fighters were accorded great prestige largely due to the near impossibility of such a feat at night and with the inadequate .303 machine guns used David Smith --=====================_19731335==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

The painting of symbols on aircraft may not have been common in the USAAF but in RAF Bomber Command it was.  Crews that managed to shoot down German fighters were accorded great prestige largely due to the near impossibility of such a feat at night and with the inadequate .303 machine guns used

David Smith --=====================_19731335==_.ALT-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Thu Feb 14 19:47:59 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:47:59 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R Message-ID: <002201c1b590$82504020$3fbb9ace@mjpmtman> I am not informed enough to know if the 17 had fabric control surfaces. Never paid that much attention when I was looking them over. I based my statement on the fact that I saw a Fort at close range. [on its return from a raid] It had only about 1 or 2 feet of covering on the lower part of control surface of the vertical stab. I would have sworn it was fabric!! THAT memory is some 56 years old though.. Am familiar with dope as I built a few rice paper covered rubber powered airplanes that had to be doped --- smelled like banana oil. Bill --the paint your are referring to I believe was the green camo on the 17. [ They finally went to no paint -- as you know] believe it was a chrome based paint and did add an appreciable amount of weight. I heard that the green on the Lucky Strike cigarette packages were made with the same formula and therefore Lucky Strike went to a white package. Seems to me I heard that it soaked up the heat and increased the weight--Sound plausible?????????????? Ya know??? my memory seems to play tricks on me!!! I may be aging BUT I am not getting any older.---------Maurice Paulk From shank1@gis.net Thu Feb 14 21:12:13 2002 From: shank1@gis.net (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:12:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #508 - 5 msgs References: <20020214170105.6DDDF539C8@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001901c1b59c$81802870$0000a398@SHANK> Re: Fabric covered controls. The elevators on the B-17 were fabric covered. ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #508 - 5 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: CLIFFORD AKRE (Bill Jones) > 2. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs (Chuck Golden) > 3. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs (Jprencher@aol.com) > 4. Re: CLIFFORD AKRE (Jprencher@aol.com) > 5. Minter Field (Gordy Alton) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE > > > > On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > > > > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. > > Maurice. > I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- > 17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots > that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. > A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- > metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 > would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS > might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got > transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? > Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on > weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about > how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they > used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very > strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. > > Just curious. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:33:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Chuck Golden > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs > > As to the painting of symbols depicting downed enemy > aircraft, I have one point for clarification. I've > seen photos of planes with swastikas painted both on > the noses and near the gunports. Did these represent > downed aircraft? If not, what did they represent? > > Chuck Golden > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:00:13 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #507 - 4 msgs > To: bagnoli2@yahoo.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > > Chuck ( And Lloyd) > To clarify my previous letter. I was only talking about my own > observations on Bombers. Specifically B17s. Lots of fighter type planes > with one pilot knew when they shot down an enemy and usually had photo's t o > prove it. This was not the case when many gunners from one or more B17s were > shooting at the same enemy. Fighters main job was shooting down airplanes so > they painted swastika's on their planes when they got one. Bombers main job > was dropping bombs on targets so we painted bombs on our birds when we > dropped them I suppose any gunner could paint whatever he wanted to on his > turret or near his muzzles but I don't think it was common practice. We flew > to many different birds during our 35 or so missions. > Best Wishes, > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:45 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE > To: wejones@megalink.net, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Maurice. Dope is used on fabric planes because it shrinks the fabric, makes > it tight and takes out all the winkles. It takes several coats and can be > tinted different colors. Some metal planes had fabric control surfaces. I > don't remember any on B17s but some early models could have or I could have > forgotten. Some early Cessna's were metal and had Fabric coated wings. Some > cars are metal and have no wings at all. They are very hard to get off the > ground and then just for short flights. They put their dope in the drivers > but they still have a very short range. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Gordy Alton" > To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk List" <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:06:35 -0800 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Were any of you fellas ever trained at or stationed at Minter Field? I am > looking for info on when things became activated, and what kind of training > took place there. If you were ever based there, would you mind telling me > what you remember? > Thanks, > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > Box 855 > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 > ph. 250-537-5913 > tailgunnerson@uniserve.com > "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those > who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." > ************************************* > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20 > Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; > name="winmail.dat" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="winmail.dat" > > eJ8+IiMIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy > b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAgAOAAAABQAAAAQA8gAB > A5AGAGwMAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB > AAAADQAAAE1pbnRlciBGaWVsZAAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwbUuaynAEflGINMR1ps2/MAB3G5I > AAACAR0MAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlRBSUxHVU5ORVJTT05AVU5JU0VSVkUuQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAG > DgAehUwutcEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAtya9kmr8ERvknmKtP8lUDCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQ > AQAAAIsIAACHCAAA0BQAAExaRnU0ImeWAwAKAHJjcGcxMjVyMgxgYzEDMAEHC2BukQ4QMDMzDxZm > ZQ+STwH3AqQDYwIAY2gKwHOEZXQC0XBycTIAAJIqCqFubxJQIDAB0IUB0DYPoDA1MDQUIfMB0BQQ > 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AABlAAAAV0VSRUFOWU9GWU9VRkVMTEFTRVZFUlRSQUlORURBVE9SU1RBVElPTkVEQVRNSU5URVJG > SUVMRD9JQU1MT09LSU5HRk9SSU5GT09OV0hFTlRISU5HU0JFQ0FNRUFDVElWQVRFRAAAAAAbNg== > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1B4EB.77711B20-- > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From KERRB1468@aol.com Thu Feb 14 20:52:41 2002 From: KERRB1468@aol.com (KERRB1468@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:52:41 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fabric surfaces on Forts Message-ID: <115.c970228.299d7d99@aol.com> I believe ALL control surfaces (ailerons, rudder, & elevator) were fabric coated. I recall very vividly having damaged an aileron when taxiing and seeing the fabric fluttering in the breeze. Paperwork following that incident helped to imprint memory in the brain! Bob From wejones@megalink.net Thu Feb 14 21:38:43 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:38:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R In-Reply-To: <002201c1b590$82504020$3fbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: On 14 Feb 02, at 13:47, Maurice Paulk wrote: > I am not informed enough to know if the 17 had fabric control surfaces. > Never paid that much attention when I was looking them over. I based my > statement on the fact that I saw a Fort at close range. [on its return > from a raid] It had only about 1 or 2 feet of covering on the lower part of > control surface of the vertical stab. I would have sworn it was fabric!! > THAT memory is some 56 years old though.. You are right. I pulled up the B-17 service manual I have on computer, and it verifies that the rudder, elevator, and I think ailerons were fabric covered. Interesting. I would have never guessed. I've walked all around and touched, the Collins B-17 and the Aluminum Overcast B-17, and never noticed the fabric. Now, the question is WHY? Is it a weight thing? Ie would it require too much force from the pilot to move a heavy metal control surface? Or was it a ease of repair thing? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From junned@humboldt1.com Thu Feb 14 22:42:42 2002 From: junned@humboldt1.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:42:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story Message-ID: <002301c1b5a8$fbdbbe20$1a2664d8@computer> Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. That was the ship we flew for our first 13 missions.. It was named for our pilot Alexander Strickland and I quite clearly remember when the art was painted. Went on R&R to Blackpool for a week and on our return to Molesworth learned StricNine had been shot down. Were then assigned to Vicious Virgin for most of the remainder of missions. Ed Lamme Bombardier 427 Sqdn From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 23:22:03 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:22:03 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill J. & Jack R Message-ID: The B-17 did indeed have fabric covered control surfaces - ailerons, elevator and rudder. Why I don't know, but the I did look into this once. Later variants may have been all metal. Two more words about dope - water resistence. As far as victory symbols, each Bomb Group seems to have had its own way of doing things, just like nose art. Some Group C.O.s found nose of the unclad female form obscene and outlawed same. I've seen victory marking by crew position, as well as other personalized things such as sweet hearts names, etc. also by crew positions. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 23:30:24 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:30:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, I want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when it dried, it cost the ship airspeed, again, I think it was something like five miles an hours. The 8th AF used 867,564,117 Imp. Gal. during the course of the war. Even a slight savings in fuel economy would have saved fuel for other missions or other branches. Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CLIFFORD AKRE >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:43:13 -0500 > > > >On 12 Feb 02, at 14:21, Maurice Paulk wrote: > > > > MOS # 548. = Paint & dope . He would have worked in the paint > > & dope shop their job was to paint the repaired acraft and to "dope" > > the fabric control surfaces on repair aircraft. Dope is a special type > > of "paint" used [to my knowledge , only on fabric surfaces.] In the > > newest roster I can find no living 444th members with Cliff's MOS. > > The closest I can come is Sheet-metal men. > >Maurice. > I'm curious.... were there any fabric control surfaces on the B- >17? I thought it was all metal, except for the rubber de-icing boots >that were apparently abandoned half way through the war. > A dope specialist seems more suited for one of the older non- >metal planes rather than a B-17. I'm just curious what on the B-17 >would have requirred the dope treatment? I wonder if this MOS >might have been earned working on older fabric planes, and he got >transferred to work on the sheet metal on the B-17? > Or maybe they used dope instead of regular paint to save on >weight? I know I read some incredible piece of data talking about >how heavy the paint was on the early B-17s, and I think that they >used dope on the fabric planes because it was very light and very >strong. My uncle uses it on model planes he makes. > >Just curious. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From glm@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 15 02:59:00 2002 From: glm@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:59:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story In-Reply-To: <002301c1b5a8$fbdbbe20$1a2664d8@computer> Message-ID: <3C6C1704.5454.18DD818@localhost> > Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 > CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially > surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. Ed, Glad you like the CD and the photo. The StricNine nose art is one of my favorites. Also on the inside cover of the CD is a classic photo of Knockout Dropper. I hadn't noticed before, but she does have 2 swastikas painted on her nose. A similar photo showing the swastikas is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/na-knockout.jpg I'm pretty darned proud of the CD! Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 01:09:43 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:09:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 Message-ID: <17d.396e0f9.299db9d7@aol.com> --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_17d.396e0f9.299db9d7_boundary-- From wejones@megalink.net Fri Feb 15 00:08:01 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, I > want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when it > dried, it cost the ship airspeed, That's probably the same thing I read, that I was referring to having read some where about the weight. I have heard some accounts about polishing or waxing B-17s to make them smoother to get more airspeed, but I can't imagine with all that was going on, that there would be time to do something like that. Seems like it would have been a full time job just keeping them running. Did anyone here polish their planes? I'm not sure how many of you have had a closeup look at the Aluminum Overcast B-17, but it has a strange looking surface. It seems to be a composite material painted to look like aluminum. I heard an explanation for that once, but I lost the message, and have forgotten the explanation. However now, with the parallel discussion about the fabric control surfaces, I'm wondering if I came to the conclusion that it wasn't aluminum by looking at one of the elevators or something. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 04:41:53 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:41:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fabric surfaces on Forts Message-ID: <12e.c879409.299deb91@aol.com> Bob, You are absolutely right. I was wrong. I got to thinking about that after I went to bed last night and all the control surfaces were fabric, sewed on taped and doped. so we would have needed a dope and fabric MOS to repair them. Sorry about that. Jack From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 13:47:57 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal Message-ID: <30.22328a6f.299e6b8d@aol.com> --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know who or what determined what planes would be painted and what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the war when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal? Terry Lucas --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know  who or what determined what planes would be painted and what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the war when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal?
Terry Lucas --part1_30.22328a6f.299e6b8d_boundary-- From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 16:27:46 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:27:46 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: <4f.18add7cf.299e9102@aol.com> Lets say paint weighs 6 pounds per gal. 600 pounds would be 100 gallons, I wouldn't think it would take 100 gallons to paint a B17. Even with 2 coats like a coat of zinc chromate primer first. If you had time to let it dry before you took it on a mission it might weigh a lot less and be less sticky. I don't remember of ever seeing a polished one in combat. Some 4 star General private plane yes maybe. Bill Heller you were right and I was wrong again. I went out to Falcon Field early this morning and measured the distance over the top of the wing. Center of leading edge to trailing edge about half way between the engines on the right wing. It was 106 inches. Same measurement on the bottom side was 103 inches. I do not believe this is enough to make a significant difference. Hence I now agree with you on B17s.(Not some other wings) Getting a B17 on the step is a myth. In my defense. I could gain nearly 10 miles per hour in my Bonanzas and Baron. Best Wishes, Jack PS There was fabric on the elevators, rudder and ailerons. I don't know about the seats. The back door were locked. I couldn't get in the front door anymore without a ladder and some very strong buddy to push. From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:26:23 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:26:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story Message-ID: Gary: Looking at that pic of Knockout Dropper, it looks like the Swastikas belong to the bombardier. Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: glm@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Story >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:59:00 -0700 > > > Gary: Received the CD today and think it is great. With the 2 > > CDs, practically ny question can be answered. I was especially > > surprised to see a photo of StricNine on the back panel. > >Ed, >Glad you like the CD and the photo. The StricNine nose art is >one of my favorites. Also on the inside cover of the CD is a >classic photo of Knockout Dropper. I hadn't noticed before, >but she does have 2 swastikas painted on her nose. A similar >photo showing the swastikas is here: >http://www.303rdbga.com/na-knockout.jpg >I'm pretty darned proud of the CD! > >Regards, > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:16:30 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:16:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: Jack: The good ol' Vultee "Vibrator." A friend of mine flew this bird during training and had an awful time doing night landings in it because the canopy reflected the runway lights and gave him vertigo. Did you experience this? Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >To: tailgunnerson@uniserve.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:53:08 EST > >Gordon; > The undersigned went through Basic training at Minter Field >Bakersfield >California during the late summer of 1943. We trained in Vultee BT13's. My >Instructor was Lt Dean P. Gilmore. He taught me more about flying and being >a >damn good pilot than any instructor I ever had. The head of the mess hall >was >a civilian named Cavanough. I'm not sure of the spelling. The food there >was >the finest I've ever had before or since. We started instrument and >formation >training there and continued our aerobatics. The BT13 had a fixed gear, 450 >HP radial engine, two position Hamilton prop and was nicknamed quite >appropriately a Vultee Vibrator. The early models were wood behind the rear >cockpit. Now you know everything I know and everything you know so you are >smarter than I. Am. They were drilling for oil nearby. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:38:56 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint Message-ID: Bill: I can't imagine with wartime conditions ground crews would polish B-17s, maybe for a VIP or something like that, but for everyday combat, ground crews had a zillion other more important details to tend to. I've seen Aluminum Overcast too, and Sentimental Journey, both in natural finish. The aluminum on both look the same and appears to be the kind used during the war. As far as the why for fabric control surfaces, you may be right about the added weight of aluminum making it harder for the pilots to control. Seems like a logical explanation. Another explanation might be that there were an abundance of dope and fabric workers producing war planes in the 20s and 30s and because the ailerons, rudders and elevators were subassemblies to production, perhaps it was easier for these dope and fabric technicians to produce these. Most control surfaces on bombers and fighters were dope and fabric. I'd sure like a definitive answer if anyone knows. Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Paint >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:01 -0500 > > > > In one of Freeman's books he says how much the weight of the paint was, >I > > want to say 600 pounds, and because the paint was not very smooth when >it > > dried, it cost the ship airspeed, > >That's probably the same thing I read, that I was referring to having >read some where about the weight. I have heard some accounts >about polishing or waxing B-17s to make them smoother to get >more airspeed, but I can't imagine with all that was going on, that >there would be time to do something like that. Seems like it would >have been a full time job just keeping them running. Did anyone >here polish their planes? > I'm not sure how many of you have had a closeup look at the >Aluminum Overcast B-17, but it has a strange looking surface. It >seems to be a composite material painted to look like aluminum. I >heard an explanation for that once, but I lost the message, and >have forgotten the explanation. However now, with the parallel >discussion about the fabric control surfaces, I'm wondering if I >came to the conclusion that it wasn't aluminum by looking at one >of the elevators or something. > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Jprencher@aol.com Fri Feb 15 19:04:39 2002 From: Jprencher@aol.com (Jprencher@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:04:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Minter Field Message-ID: <87.179bbd4c.299eb5c7@aol.com> Kevin, I have no remembrance of vertigo doing night landings in a BT13 or any other airplane for that matter. One of the most important things an instrument pilot MUST learn is to COMPLETELY ignore vertigo. If you don't it very likely will be the last thing you ever don't do. Especially if you are flying in jolly old England. I strongly suspect that is what happened to the Kennedy boy who went into the Long Island Sound a while back. Jack From kevinmpearson@hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 17:45:10 2002 From: kevinmpearson@hotmail.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:45:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal Message-ID: Terry: I'll take a shot at this question. I have Roger Freeman's "Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry," which is excellent by the way. Early in the war, Forts in the ETO were olive drab on top, and aquamarine blue on the bottom for camaflouge. I believe most E and F Models were painted this way and early production run models of the G. Someone higher up finally realized the camaflouge paint did no good, hell, with a thousands heavies throwing contrails, the paint was useless. So the painting stopped. This is a simplified explantion, but buy the book. Like all of Freeman's books, it is the Bible on the subject. Kevin >From: Thor542086@aol.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bare Metal >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:57 EST > >Does anyone know who or what determined what planes would be painted and >what planes would be bare metal. I remember my dad's bomber was bare metal, >but I see other planes that were painted. Could it be the time during the >war >when we had air superiorty the AAF started just using polished metal? >Terry Lucas _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From wejones@megalink.net Fri Feb 15 19:23:47 2002 From: wejones@megalink.net (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:23:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill: I can't imagine with wartime conditions ground crews would polish > B-17s, Perhaps it is one of those old "pilots" tales, told tounge in cheek. But I heard a couple pilots say they flew a few mph faster because of the polish job done on their plane. I guess I'm a bit too gullable. > I've > seen Aluminum Overcast too, and Sentimental Journey, both in natural finish. > The aluminum on both look the same and appears to be the kind used during > the war. I have a piece of unpainted B-17 skin from a crashed B-17, and it was nothing like what I saw close-up on Aluminum Overcast, however as I mentioned, when I went up close to inspect, I did so near the rear elevator, so it is very likely that what I was looking at was the fabric control surface painted to look like aluminum. At that time I thought that everything on the outside was supposed to be aluminum. Next time I tour the plane I'll look closer at other parts of the plane. When I toured the Collins plane, it looked like real aluminum, just painted, but the Overcast looked plastic to me. I must have been looking at the fabric surfaces. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Fri Feb 15 19:55:43 2002 From: mjpmtman@kdsi.net (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:55:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver & camo Message-ID: <000801c1b65a$c164b8c0$3ebb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TERRY LUCAS -- The presence of silver & camo 17s in a formation I = bellieve is do to a transition period. When they started building silver = ones they would replace the camos but not all at one time.. I'm not = sure rather the Fs were replaced with silver Fs or not.. Seems to me it = was the silver Gs that started the transition. Any body know - Jack you seem to have a better memory than me and more = contact with the "birds" too.--Maurice Paulk -{ the mouthy one] By the = way did all the camo green ships have blue bellies?????????? ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

TERRY LUCAS -- The presence of silver = & camo=20 17s in a formation I bellieve is do to a transition period. When they = started=20 building silver ones they would replace the  camos but not all at = one=20 time.. I'm not sure rather the Fs were replaced with silver Fs or not.. = Seems to=20 me it was the silver Gs that started the transition.
 
Any body know  - Jack you seem to = have a=20 better memory than me and more contact with the "birds" too.--Maurice = Paulk -{=20 the mouthy one] By the way did all the camo green ships have blue=20 bellies??????????
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1B628.75AE7880-- From Thor542086@aol.com Fri Feb 15 21:52:42 2002 From: Thor542086@aol.com (Thor542086@aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:52:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: bare metal Message-ID: <135.975fcec.299edd2a@aol.com> --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for their responses to the question to bare metal. All your explanations make sense to me. I have heard before that the bare metal increases a planes speed. Terry --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for their responses to the question to bare metal. All your explanations make sense to me. I have heard before that the bare metal increases a planes speed. Terry --part1_135.975fcec.299edd2a_boundary-- From lmmtsm@supanet.com Sat Feb 16 14:46:58 2002 From: lmmtsm@supanet.com (lmmtsm) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:46:58 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] attack on B17 Message-ID: <000d01c1b6f8$ca2ee4a0$3ab06fd4@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello from England A documentary shown on TV this week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang = fighter, obviously highlighted its bomber escort work,mainly B17's.There = was stock footage of a german fighter attacking a B17 from the rear, = this has been shown many times before but only the final stages of the = attack.The footage on this this programme apparently showed all of the = attack, which must have been heading towards 30 seconds in duration. I = am certain you must have seen this film yourselves and I am wondering if = the B17 was ever identified. My point in question being that the crew are not returning any fire = whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the tail gunner may of = course be out action already but the ball turret shows no movement and = as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are totally still.Finally = an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts to lower,it = was in bare metal finish. I would appreciate any information on this or could you put me in = contact with any other organisation who maybe able to help =20 Kind Regards Stephen Moran ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello from England
 
A documentary shown on = TV  this=20 week[12/02/02] featuring the Mustang fighter, obviously highlighted its = bomber=20 escort work,mainly B17's.There was stock footage of a german = fighter=20 attacking a B17 from the rear, this has been shown many times before but = only=20 the final stages of the attack.The footage on this this = programme=20 apparently showed all of the attack, which must have been heading = towards=20 30 seconds in duration. I am certain you must have seen this = film=20 yourselves and I am wondering if the B17 was ever = identified.
My point in question being that the = crew are not=20 returning any fire whatsoever, the plane appears to be flying well, the = tail=20 gunner may of course be out action  already but the ball = turret=20 shows no movement and as the fighter closes the waist guns likewise are = totally=20 still.Finally an engine starts to windmill and the undercarriage starts = to=20 lower,it was in bare metal finish.
I would appreciate any information on = this or could=20 you put me in contact with any other organisation who maybe able to = help  
 
Kind Regards
 
Stephen=20 Moran
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1B6F8.C8D60B60-- From palidin@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 17 01:04:01 2002 From: palidin@worldnet.att.net (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:04:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb bay area, re. B-i7 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends, At the risk of belaboring a subject, I would like to ask a few more questions with regard to the middle section of the B-17s that you flew. I believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of the plane was segregated from the forward section where assigned crew positions were: Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. Behind the “bomb-bay, (or “cargo” section) were stations for the Radio Operator, Ball Turret g., two Waist g.’s, and the Tail g. If I have this correctly, no one was assigned permanently to man the Bomb-bay. The responsibility seems to have been somewhat universally designated. An incredibly narrow cat-walk over the bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit area, and visa-versa. ( I have personally had an opportunity to traverse this constipated little walkway while visiting the “ Aluminum Overcast “ while she was parked on the ground; and at best I can describe the experience as claustrophobic. ) My questions follow: 1. Were the bomb-bays hydraulically, or electrically operated? 2. Besides the bombardier, who else was able to operate the bomb-bay doors? 3. Was there a manual over-ride similar to the one that could lower the landing gear? 4. How were the bomb shackles released ( and what might have caused them to malfunction---resulting in the occurrence of a “hung bomb(s) ) ? 5. And, lastly, in the unfortunate necessity of a bail out, was there a practiced procedure for exiting the aircraft thru the bomb-bay? I hope these are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in the archives, but so far I have not been able to find the answers to these questions. Thank you, fellows for your incredible patience. Lloyd Grant 427th son. (’42-’43) ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1B725.13C2EFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Friends,

 

At the risk of belaboring = a subject, I would like to ask a few more questions with regard to the = middle section of the B-17s that you flew.  I believe that I understand correctly that the middle section of = the plane was segregated from the forward section where assigned crew = positions were: Pilot, co-Pilot, Engineer ( TTg ), then Navigator, and Bombadier. = Behind the “bomb-bay, (or “cargo” section) were stations for = the Radio Operator, Ball Turret g., two Waist g.’s, and the Tail g.  If I have this correctly, no one was assigned = permanently to man the Bomb-bay.  The responsibility seems to have been somewhat universally designated.  An incredibly narrow cat-walk = over the bomb-bay provided access from the tail of the plane to the cockpit area, = and visa-versa.  ( I have = personally had an opportunity to traverse this constipated little walkway while = visiting the “ Aluminum Overcast “ while she was parked on the = ground;  and at best I can describe the experience as claustrophobic. )

 

My questions = follow:

 

  1. Were the bomb-bays = hydraulically, or electrically operated?
  2. Besides the bombardier, who = else was able to operate the bomb-bay = doors?
  3. Was there a manual = over-ride similar to the one that could lower the landing = gear?
  4. How were the bomb shackles released ( and what might have caused them to = malfunction---resulting in the occurrence of a “hung bomb(s)  ) ?
  5. And, lastly, in the = unfortunate necessity of a bail out, was there a practiced procedure for = exiting the aircraft thru the bomb-bay?

  

I hope = these are reasonable questions. I may have overlooked something in the = archives, but so far I have not been able to find the answers to these questions.  =

 

Thank = you, fellows for your incredible = patience.