----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 = 4:53=20 PM

Subject: 4:30 Pm

That would be like being cut off from a very = important=20 element

of my family. ( I =91ll bet = you understand=20 ). ...............=93odd=94 photo

( just kiddin=92 , pardner = ), I know that I love you like = a=20 brother...

You are a part of our family ( = sorry, there=20 is no escape=85).............Lloyd.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= +++++++++++++

Brother Lloyd [you = whippersnapper]=20

Glad I can help = out--once=20 you know=20 me you wil = probably not=20 want to admit it.

Besides my oldest = off-spring is only=20 2 years younger than you. She weighed

in at 10 lbs on March 17 = 1949.

RE:- Smitty --you almost = threw me on=20 that one. I'm used to "the Redhead" or = "Tracy".

Hope you won't be = jealous -- I have=20 a Thing-a-ma-jig for Tracy too.

IT'S A FACT ----- THE = LENGTH OF A=20 SECOND DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE OF THE BATHROOM DOOR YOU ARE=20 STANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hast la vista, mi=20 hermano------------MJP

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C24878.9C70AAA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 21 03:18:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:18:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Skills and judgement Message-ID: <1ab.71fdab4.2a945278@aol.com> Dave Tooley You have asked one of the best questions I have seen on our Monitor. I am proud of you. I thought you would get many answers by tonight when I looked at it at noon but I don't see and so. Pilot. He is the airplane commander and the first officer. The buck stops with him He is the boss. The crew and their performance is his responsibility. He should see that every man on his crew knows his job and does it. He probably had about 100 hours training in a B17 when the crew was put together. Copilot He is 2nd in command and is a rated pilot. He very well may be a better pilot than his first pilot but he is not the boss. All crews were different but mostly the 2 pilots traded off flying about every 30 minutes or so. The one (resting?) would run the switches, observe the instruments, set the RPMs, Manifold pressures, cowl flaps, flaps. landing gear, Generators, Inverters,moniter some of the radio frequencies. Watch the formation and Flak and what ever else needed to be done. He probably had no time in B17s when the crews were formed. If he took off and landed was up to the first pilot. On our crew we took turns landing and taking off Instruments cross winds flat tires what the hell ever whose turn it was did it. Most all pilots had training in navigation, formation, instruments and etc. Some first pilots I understand did most if not all the take offs and landings. A few of the copilots were upgraded to first pilots during their tour. My observation. They all succeeded and became some of our most outstanding pilots, officers and members of our Association. Navigators. This was no doubt one of the most important positions on the crew and often determined if the crew made it back to Molesworth or flew over 600 88 MM guns and got shot down limping home alone on 2 or 3 engines. Any of the pilots could have navigated back to Molesworth but it was very important to know exactly were you were when we got separated from our formation and know where the German guns were so we could pick our way around them Other than the lead Navigator the other navigators had to keep track of where we were, plot the winds, Ground speeds etc. This was not easy as we often changed courses every 20 seconds or so. Bombardiers, Other than the lead Bombardier or deputy lead did not even have a bomb sight. He dropped his bombs when the lead dropped theirs. He was the armament officer. He fused the bombs, set and tested his intervolometer, bomb racks, etc., very often the wing crews had a togelier who took the place of a bombardier. H did every thing the bombardier did except he had no training on a bomb sight. Engineers, Usually were in the top turret. He was usually the crew chief and was in charge of all the enlisted men as well as the mechanical part of the plane. He could check the gear down, transfer fuel, help the copilot with power settings flaps and, etc., and make in flight repairs perhaps Radio Operator ran the radio room monitored about 7 radio frequencies, sent strike reports received radio reports and decoded them. He was stationed right behind the bomb bay and could report to the bombardier if any bombs were hung up didn't drop, or what ever went on in the Bombay. Ball turret might have been the ass't radio operator or what ever. Waist gunners. Maybe one or two one of them or the tail gunner might have been the bombardiers ass't armorer Tail Gunner kept the fighters off our tail and let me tell you this was one important duty. Every one on the plane except the 2 pilots were gunners and if they were, if I may say so, Damn good ones it did more to see that we were not shot down jThan any other position on the crew other than maybe at least if one of the pilots was outstanding. The gunners had one more very important duty, OBSERVING. We also needed a Nurse aboard to pass out tranquilizers to the pilot flying in close formation when the ball turret was on the intercom screaming Go Up, Go up and the top turret was screaming Go Down, Go Down I forgot to tell you Dave. On our crew after we got to about 18,000 feet we had an oxygen check every 30 seconds. This was usually the bombardiers job unless he assigned it to someone else while he was busy. It went like this. The bombardier or any other man on the crew would say one word "Check" Each man would then, starting at the back, say his position. Tail, Waist, Ball, Radio,.Engineer. If any man did not check in we had 2 minutes to get to him with Oxygen or he would be dead. Our Oxygen lines often got shot in two or became disconnected in the heat of battle. The pilots did not check in as they were sitting side by side and could see each other as were the Navigator and Bombardier. Best Wishes Dave, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 21 07:43:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:43:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buzzing and Feathering References: <1ad.71d4845.2a941a49@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6336AD.F2B3B49C@attglobal.net> Yes, that was one GREAT buzz job and you were correct, Buzz Edwards was a fine pilot, a fine officer and a gentleman. I saw that buzz job. Cheers! hans80@aol.com wrote: > The recent flurry of articles on the subject jiggled some nerves in me. I had > a couple interesting flights that involved buzzing and feathering but not at > the same time. > > They were both piloted by Buzz Edwards (someone else's term), not mine, an > excellent pilot and a fine officer. The feathering number was on a slow time > when I was the RO. I happened to look out the radio room window and notice a > P-47 flying tightly off our port wingtip. Its pilot seemed to be watching our > plane very intently and shaking his head from time to time. Suddenly his eyes > popped out over his oxygen mask and his plane appeared to go straight up as > it became very quiet and I became weightless. The engineer later informed me > that Capt. Edwards feathered the engines one at a time, one through four, and > after each one motioned to the P-47 pilot to feather his. I've often wondered > how many times that fighter pilot told that story at the fighter group's club > bar. I've told the story a few times myself at partys where people have > probed into my past. > > The buzzing number occurred after Capt. Edward's last mission, his 25th. > Again I was > his RO. We were the lead crew for the 359th and maybe the group, when he > left the group and got down to a level where the propellers were making > V-shaped furrows in the grass. Of course I couldn't see forward from the > radio room but I had a good feeling for the action and could hear whooping on > the intercom. We chandelled over the tower after which we made a very tight > turn in an 85 degree bank, flew about the length of the runway, made another > such turn and then sideslipped into the end of the runway. When the wheels > touched the runway both tires blew, due, I was told, to the copilot's failure > to release the brakes. Then Capt. Edwards, I suspect, applied full throttles > to drag the plane off the runway so the group could land. > > By the time the crew got out of the plane a jeep had arrived and parked > underneath the nose turret. It then became apparent how close we had come to > the to the tower. There were two officers standing underneath the front hatch > in their summer "pinks" with melted tar on their fronts from head to foot. > They had been part of the group stand atop the tower "sweating in" the group. > One was General Travis, the other his brother Colonel Travis. (Bill Heller: > Were you there?) It was rumored that Capt. Edward later received a severe > reprimand and was charged a couple hundred bucks for the tires. > If you dig around in the 303rd BGA's lead crew pictures you will see how > casually Capt. Edwards took the whole thing. > > So much for my tales of buzzing and feathering; there are others, all with > Capt. Edwards but they are rather bland. Old Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 21 15:04:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:04:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Skills and judgement Message-ID: <1a6.7256f53.2a94f7ef@aol.com> prez jack , very well said desciptive of in flight crew and pilots duties. in my case arriving in 1945 months after you and heller and others, i had bombsight training ay lowery field and gulfport and our plane we flew most had operative bomb sight on it and i esed it as togglier ,but as you said dropped of lead planes signals to drop bombs. cheers andso please you andothers are putting your experiences on internet and hope being stored by gary in his library of the talk going on worthy of saving for educating those that follow our history of the war usa won. spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 21 19:14:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:14:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Skills and judgement References: <1a6.7256f53.2a94f7ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D63D88C.5FD77443@attglobal.net> ibspec ... WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST UPPER CASE? Cheers! IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > prez jack , very well said desciptive of in flight crew and pilots > duties. in my case arriving in 1945 months after you and heller and others, i > had bombsight training ay lowery field and gulfport and our plane we flew > most had operative bomb sight on it and i esed it as togglier ,but as you > said dropped of lead planes signals to drop bombs. cheers andso please you > andothers are putting your experiences on internet and hope being stored by > gary in his library of the talk going on worthy of saving for educating those > that follow our history of the war usa won. spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 21 20:09:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:09:59 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] vol 1 #677 message no. 9 Message-ID: <003b01c24946$6be36c00$4fbb9ace@mjpmtman> Sorry Gentleman-- that one was a complete error on my part. I MISSED IT! The forum address is first on my list and for some reason I get it as primary address plus the one I want --I'll be more observant after this.---Maurice From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 22 12:58:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:58:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Skills and judgement Message-ID: <23.22f6ce05.2a962bd3@aol.com>

just what i learned From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 22 13:52:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Crime and punishment? Message-ID: <20020822125234.80641.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1023119529-1030020754=:80635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill and all, I think I have a clue why rank would be restored. My father told told me before they departed the US for the ETO he was bumped down from Staff SGT for falling out late one morning down in Florida. Upon arrival at Molesworth they took a look at his stripes and instantly restored him to Staff Sgt, he was told only that rank or higher could fly combat missions. The reason had something to due with the Geneva Convention and prisoner of war treatment if you were captured. Todd- (303rd A-637) From: "Bill Jones" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Crime and punishment? Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I'd like to switch topics to another topic which falls under the same "crime and punishment" subject. I'm curious about how common an offense "drunk and disorderly in uniform" was, and what the normal punishment would have been if it came to courts martial? Also, normally, how serious of an offense did it have to be to resort to a courts martial? On the microfilm records, I saw one example of the above offense, which went to a formal courts martial, and resulted in the demotion of the airman from a S/Sgt to a private. (actually, the penalty was much more stringent, but the penalty was reduced at the request of his CO ). I found it interesting because the private continued to fly missions. I thought that it was rather unusual for a private to fly missions. The man was re-promoted to his original rank about a month later. It seemed strange to me that they went to the trouble of having a formal courts martial for a penalty that could have been applied by his commander just demoting him on the spot or applying some other punishment, without going to the trouble of a courts martial. Perhaps it was done to make the local residents happy? I found the whole event interesting, because the man was featured in a Stars&Stripes issue for having completed 100 missions at about the same time as the courts martial, so I'm speculating that perhaps the 100th mission might have been the cause for the "celebration", and the reason that the punishment was not permanent. Perhaps this is an example of getting the wrong impression of military life in WWII from the movies, but it just seemed like drunk & disorderly would not have been the type of offense that would have resulted in a courts martial. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs --0-1023119529-1030020754=:80635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Bill and all,

I think I have a clue why rank would be restored. My father told told me before they departed the US for the ETO he was bumped down from Staff SGT for falling out late one morning down in Florida. Upon arrival at Molesworth they took a look at his stripes and instantly restored him to Staff Sgt, he was told only that rank or higher could fly combat missions. The reason had something to due with the Geneva Convention and prisoner of war treatment if you were captured.

Todd- (303rd A-637)

From: "Bill Jones"
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Crime and punishment?
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

I'd like to switch topics to another topic which falls under the same
"crime and punishment" subject.
I'm curious about how common an offense "drunk and disorderly in
uniform" was, and what the normal punishment would have been if it
came to courts martial? Also, normally, how serious of an offense
did it have to be to resort to a courts martial?
On the microfilm records, I saw one example of the above
offense, which went to a formal courts martial, and resulted in the
demotion of the airman from a S/Sgt to a private. (actually, the
penalty was much more stringent, but the penalty was reduced at the
request of his CO ). I found it interesting because the private
continued to fly missions. I thought that it was rather unusual for
a private to fly missions. The man was re-promoted to his original
rank about a month later.
It seemed strange to me that they went to the trouble of having a
formal courts martial for a penalty that could have been applied by
his commander just demoting him on the spot or applying some other
punishment, without going to the trouble of a courts martial.
Perhaps it was done to make the local residents happy?
I found the whole event interesting, because the man was featured
in a Stars&Stripes issue for having completed 100 missions at about
the same time as the courts martial, so I'm speculating that perhaps
the 100th mission might have been the cause for the "celebration",
and the reason that the punishment was not permanent.
Perhaps this is an example of getting the wrong impression of
military life in WWII from the movies, but it just seemed like drunk
& disorderly would not have been the type of offense that would have
resulted in a courts martial.

Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net

Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html

Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs --0-1023119529-1030020754=:80635-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 22 17:08:15 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:08:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Crime and punishment? In-Reply-To: <20020822125234.80641.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D64D42F.8565.132A24@localhost> > I think I have a clue why rank would be restored. My father told > told me before they departed the US for the ETO he was bumped down > from Staff SGT for falling out late one morning down in Florida. > Upon arrival at Molesworth they took a look at his stripes and > instantly restored him to Staff Sgt, he was told only that rank or > higher could fly combat missions. The reason had something to due > with the Geneva Convention and prisoner of war treatment if you were > captured. What you say makes sense, and I have been told by some veterans that you had to be a Sgt to fly missions, but this fellow flew some 3 missions as a Pvt, and 3 more as a Pfc, and only got re-promoted to Sgt after all the missions were over, around VE-day. I notice that in the last couple weeks of the war, there were several people flying missions who were Cpls and a couple Pfcs, so perhaps this wasn't a consideration with the war running down? Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 22 18:26:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:26:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Skills and judgement Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA3E@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Jack and Bill, Thanks for your clear and understandable answers to my question on crew skills. As with most things done in this world, training, discipline and leadership will put you ahead of the game every time. Take care, Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 23 20:28:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:28:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Squadron insignias Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272F2@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> List, I looked on the 303rd site for this but didn't find anything. Can anyone explain what is on each of the squadron patches, the meaning behind each and the history of how that design was chosen? Thanks and have a great weekend! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 23 21:01:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:01:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Squadron insignias In-Reply-To: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272F2@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave: Furrizy ino the 360th Patch which shows Smokie Stover riding a pencil-shaped bomb down to the disaster area. The character Stover was originally drawn by Bill Holman and I've spent a few afternoons hunting his story down and found very little...there is a monumental 10 ponder on the history of comic trips nd I couldn't find him there. Who originally adapted Stover for the Squadron Insignia, I could't tell you..but no doubt some one will complete this call as respond to the others\ Dinner time...as chief cook and bottlewasher I've got to make it bck to the kitchen post haste. Trying some chili...we'll see how it goes. Thanks again for writing. Best of health and Cheers!...........Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 23 22:25:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:25:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Squadron insignias In-Reply-To: References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272F2@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com> Message-ID: <3D667006.17265.218FA51@localhost> > Hi Dave: Furrizy ino the 360th Patch which shows Smokie Stover riding > a pencil-shaped bomb down to the disaster area. The character Stover > was originally drawn by Bill Holman ...... Thanks for posting this info. I always wondered who the little guy riding the bomb was. I thought perhaps it was one of the snap- crackle-pop people or something. Interesting. I just did a search for Smokey Stover, and got several hits, including: http://www.lambiek.net/holman_bill.htm http://www.toonopedia.com/smokey.htm thanks. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 23 22:50:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020823215045.76534.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> 1. What was the best, worst or most unusual thing you saw in England? 2. While continuing with Gerry Astor's The Mighty Eighth, he mentioned that dress on station was a very casual affair. What type of clothing was worn when standing down on station or when you had a pass to Kettering or London, etc.? Were you ever allowed to wear civilian cloths. 3. I have seen wartime movie footage of England and there always seems to be smoke from coal fired furnaces created haze and clouds over the countryside. Do you remember this at Molesworth or were you too far away from the industrial centers like Birmingham? 4. And did you ever witness the thousands of other Yanks invading England from the Army, Troop Carrier Units, Airborne, etc? If so, were there any units you remember close to Molesworth? 5. Were there heavy flak guns in Eadst Anglia, or were the concentrated on the coast? Thanks, guys, have a great weekend! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 23 22:57:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Superchargers - Here were go again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020823215741.98085.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> When were superchargers engaged? Were they always on when the engines were running? Were they used for take-off? I know they were used at altitude for obvious reasons. If you lost a supercharger at altitude, what would happen? OK, ok, you lost power, I understand that, but was it a significant loss of power? Would the loss of one supercharger with a full bomb load 45 minutes into the Continent be reason for an abort? Two? Three? I know these question probably sound incredibly simple and somewhat lame to some of you high time pilots, but for us "wannabes," we are still very curious. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 04:55:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:55:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Superchargers - Here were go again Message-ID: <168.12a7190e.2a985db4@aol.com> Kevin, Superchargers are air compressors. Some are gear driven from the accessory section of the engine. Some are driven by the pressure of the exhaust gases as ours were in the B17. I'm going to talk in round figures as air pressure varies and I would be here all night to teach you Meteorology. Let say the air pressure at sea level is about 30 inches of mg. ( about 14.7 Lbs per square inch.) At 18,000 feet half the air would be below us. We loose about one inch per 1000 ft. The pressure there would be about 15 inches. We used 2500 RPMs and 46 inches Manifold pressure for take off. We could use 2400 and 42 inches for climb for 5 minutes. We normally used 2300 and 36 inches for climb and maximum cruse. So yes, we used the superchargers basically all the time. Without a supercharger it would be impossible to get over about 30 inches near sea level and at 18000 feet over about 15 inches. Without superchargers it would be difficult to get a B17 off the ground at sea level with Crew and fuel and NO bomb load and its ceiling I would estimate would be about 12,000 feet. If a supercharger went out say at 25000 feet I don't believe the engine would even run and if it did it would put out no power. If you lost one supercharger would you have to abort? You would be on 3 engines. If you were at altitude and near the IP you could probably stay with the formation and drop with them by using near take off power on the remaining 3 engines. You would use more fuel so if it was a long mission it might be well to abort if it was going to be marginal to have enough fuel to get back anyway. If you lost 2 superchargers you would be on 2 engines, so you take it from there. If you lost 3 superchargers you could leave the formation and make it across the channel if you didn't get shot down and were as good a pilot as Harry Gobrecht. Probably Bill Heller could limp home too. Best Wishes Kevin, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 15:02:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:02:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] No superchargers Message-ID: <197.c034c13.2a98ebf5@aol.com> Kevin, This morning. I just was checking my e-mail and saw the letter I sent you last night. One thing I didn't make clear. You could cruse along at 140-150 MPH indicated anywhere below say 8000 feet without using or needing your superchargers. You would need them to get off the ground and get up there. At sea level without super chargers you would have 2500 RPMs and about 26 inches manifold pressure. You might get it off the ground on the Azores where they have 17000 feet of runway, a light load and there were no big waves in the ocean at the end of the runway. (and you salvoed your bombs when you started your takeoff roll). Happy Saturday Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 15:10:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:10:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions In-Reply-To: <20020823215045.76534.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To answer your questions...briefly... 1) Unusual, allright...my pilot and nav. And I were strolling past Buckingham Palace and passed one of the tiny booths near the main gate when the inhabitant of same emerged and went through the elaborate manual of arms as we slowly passed. It dawned on us, when he finished, that this was a SALUTE INTENDED FOR US, and we swallowed our embarrassment and did a 180, returning his salute properly. (Boy, that was unthinking!!) 2) Dress was casual on base...mainly keep warm. Nobody I knew packed civvies or wore them in town. 3) Not aware of smoke from big mfg. Towns. Are you aware that those infamous potbellied stoves burned COKE, not coal? 4) Not aware of a gang of any other branch amassing. 5) No answer. This any help? Good Health, Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 17:24:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:24:58 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions References: <20020823215045.76534.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101c24b8a$eb89c580$8be8fc3e@theresa> Kevin As a limey I feel as qualified as any to respond to your question about the 'smoke-laden' atmosphere of the UK, during those war years. Fact was all houses, almost without exception, used coal fires as the means of heating . Oil, gas and other forms of heating was almost unheard of in domestic residences in those days. Obviously, the burning of all this fossil fuel caused high emissions of smoke into the atmosphere; the more urbanized the area, the more there was a smoke haze hanging over the place. I'm sure some of the 303rd vets recall the 'smog' in London, during those war years. It remained a problem for us until the late 50's-early 60's, when legislation was passed restricting, and sometimes prohibiting, the use of smoke-emitting fuels from industrial and residential properties. So yes, you do tend to see a somewhat smoke-laden atmosphere in those old wartime films. We were a more industrial nation in those days with a vibrant steel and ship-building industry and where you get a concentration of factories, you inevitably get smoke. Today Britain has little manufacturing industry, with nearly all our manufacture having gone east to Japan, China and the like! All we are left with is financial, insurance and computer services. Sad, but true. Today, Kevin, we can pretty much breathe clear air, although the internal combustion engine has done it's part in polluting our environment. Hope this comment is of interest. Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 17:35:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:35:36 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions References: Message-ID: <002001c24b8c$5a35dfe0$8be8fc3e@theresa> For Bob Hand Sorry to disillusion you, Bob, concerning the Buckingham Palace sentry's 'salute of arms'. They do this at frequent intervals, to relieve the monotony of standing still for hours on end. The ceremonial guards at your Arlington cemetery do much the same thing. Of course, he may well have been impressed by your presence, Bob, and perhaps hoped you had some spare gum, or cookies in your pocket! (I'm kidding). If you believed the saluting of arms was just for you, then so be it. I'm pleased he recognized a yank as a friend Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 18:35:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Several questions Message-ID: <20020824173517.6447.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1475435256-1030210517=:5464 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kevin, I will try and answer these on behalf of my father (303rd BTG Summer 1944) and what stories I have heard. Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Pearson Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com 1. What was the best, worst or most unusual thing you saw in England? *** The BEST was seeing England at this time during the war, the buildup for the invasion was incredible. Seeing the invasion was incredible. Dad always talks about the stockpile of equipment visible from the air as the formed up or returned from raids or training flights. The WORST was the loss of life, emtpy bunks still haunt him. The MOST UNUSUAL, he has many stories... I guess being assigned to lead crew and flying with the H2X operators and seeing them operate was unusual, In London seeing how the British were living and surviving the war was very unusual. On leave on night just after checking in to their rooms they decided to take a walk. After strolling a few blocks in the darkened city they heard their first Buzz Bomb... then they didn't, followed by an explosion from where they had walked. Sure enough it landed not far from the hotel they checked into moments before. This was followed by a heated disscussion about going back to Molesworth where it was safe and quiet! The Brits just took all this activity in stride. 2. While continuing with Gerry Astor's The Mighty Eighth, he mentioned that dress on station was a very casual affair. What type of clothing was worn when standing down on station or when you had a pass to Kettering or London, etc.? Were you ever allowed to wear civilian cloths. ***All he had was what Uncle Sam provided him. That uniform went a long way in Kettering and London though ;-) 3. I have seen wartime movie footage of England and there always seems to be smoke from coal fired furnaces created haze and clouds over the countryside. Do you remember this at Molesworth or were you too far away from the industrial centers like Birmingham? *** He loved the countryside around Molesworth, took many a long bikeride to sightsee the area. Many of you may recall how easy it was to coast away from the base, but the climb back up was hell. We found this road out the old main gate during our visit in 2000 on a trip to Thrapston. It has not changed a bit! 4. And did you ever witness the thousands of other Yanks invading England from the Army, Troop Carrier Units, Airborne, etc? If so, were there any units you remember close to Molesworth? *** None close to Molesworth, but during a pass to London he had a run in with some Airborne troops looking for some payback. Seems anyone with pilots wings (or close resembalence) were C-47 pilots who dropped early on June 6th! Seems like every uniform and accent from around the globe was in London at this time. 5. Were there heavy flak guns in Eadst Anglia, or were the concentrated on the coast? ***Attack from the air by 1944 was not considered a threat, coastal artillary would be the only guns they could see. Thanks, guys, have a great weekend! Kevin It's raining in New Jersey, one of a handfull of times it's actually happened!!! It figures that the Sussex NJ Airshow started today, I am sure what few WW II A/C that arrived will be gounded or fly a very limited display. Back in the 80's numerous WW II A/C would fly in including a B-17 and a bunch of P-51's, today a P-51, B-25 and a TBM are about all that arrive to pay tribute to the The Greatest Conflict. The National Guard does buzz the field with a C-5 Galaxy, Looks wierd swooping down on the little single runway field in the middle of NJ farm country with gear and flaps down :) __________________________________________________ Todd- --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1475435256-1030210517=:5464 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Kevin,

I will try and answer these on behalf of my father (303rd BTG Summer 1944) and what stories I have heard.

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Pearson
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

1. What was the best, worst or most unusual thing you
saw in England?

*** The BEST was seeing England at this time during the war, the buildup for the invasion was incredible. Seeing the invasion was incredible. Dad always talks about the stockpile of equipment visible from the air as the formed up or returned from raids or training flights. The WORST was the loss of life, emtpy bunks still haunt him. The MOST UNUSUAL, he has many stories... I guess being assigned to lead crew and flying with the H2X operators and seeing them operate was unusual, In London seeing how the British were living and surviving the war was very unusual. On leave on night just after checking in to their rooms they decided to take a walk. After strolling a few blocks in the darkened city they heard their first Buzz Bomb... then they didn't, followed by an explosion from where they had walked. Sure enough it landed not far from the hotel they checked into moments before. This was followed by a heated disscussion about going back to Molesworth where it was safe and quiet! The Brits just took all this activity in stride.

2. While continuing with Gerry Astor's The Mighty
Eighth, he mentioned that dress on station was a very
casual affair. What type of clothing was worn when
standing down on station or when you had a pass to
Kettering or London, etc.? Were you ever allowed to
wear civilian cloths.

***All he had was what Uncle Sam provided him. That uniform went a long way in Kettering and London though ;-)

3. I have seen wartime movie footage of England and
there always seems to be smoke from coal fired
furnaces created haze and clouds over the countryside.
Do you remember this at Molesworth or were you too
far away from the industrial centers like Birmingham?

*** He loved the countryside around Molesworth, took many a long bikeride to sightsee the area. Many of you may recall how easy it was to coast away from the base, but the climb back up was hell. We found this road out the old main gate during our visit in 2000 on a trip to Thrapston. It has not changed a bit!

4. And did you ever witness the thousands of other
Yanks invading England from the Army, Troop Carrier
Units, Airborne, etc? If so, were there any units you
remember close to Molesworth?

*** None close to Molesworth, but during a pass to London he had a run in with some Airborne troops looking for some payback. Seems anyone with pilots wings (or close resembalence) were C-47 pilots who dropped early on June 6th! Seems like every uniform and accent from around the globe was in London at this time.

5. Were there heavy flak guns in Eadst Anglia, or
were the concentrated on the coast?

***Attack from the air by 1944 was not considered a threat, coastal artillary would be the only guns they could see.

Thanks, guys, have a great weekend!
Kevin

It's raining in New Jersey, one of a handfull of times it's actually happened!!! It figures that the Sussex NJ Airshow started today, I am sure what few WW II A/C that arrived will be gounded or fly a very limited display. Back in the 80's numerous WW II A/C would fly in including a B-17 and a bunch of P-51's, today a P-51, B-25 and a TBM are about all that arrive to pay tribute to the The Greatest Conflict. The National Guard does buzz the field with a C-5 Galaxy, Looks wierd swooping down on the little single runway field in the middle of NJ farm country with gear and flaps down :)
__________________________________________________

Todd-

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1475435256-1030210517=:5464-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 24 20:59:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:59:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Several Questions In-Reply-To: <002001c24b8c$5a35dfe0$8be8fc3e@theresa> Message-ID: Hello Ray: Your note has taken considerable load off my mind...all these years I've thought back to that precise, wonderfully actuated arms presentation and the guilt involved! Serves me right. Ray, my dear wife and I had the extreme pleasure of a visit to Molesworth and in our haste to cram as much activity as possible, we overlooked the opportunity to say "Hello!" (which we are hereby tendering, by your grace!) London was fascinating, a quick side-trip to Amsterdam visiting relatives a treasure, and the surprise at Molesworth staggering. Never will forget it. I appreciate your note....Good Health and Cheers! Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 00:08:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:08:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo Message-ID: <3D67AF98.28895.A64BB1@localhost> Courtesy of Bob Kerr, here is a photo of a B-17 Flight Deck. http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/B17flightdeck.jpg (Thank's Bob!) -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 02:41:36 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Superchargers Message-ID: <000f01c24bd8$8ec3a200$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Jack Rencher wrote--- Superchargers are air compressors. Some are gear driven from the accessory section of the engine. Some are driven by the pressure of the exhaust gases as ours were in the B17.---- Of these facts I am knowledgeable Being exhaust driven they would be mounted in CLOSE proximity to the exhaust. For some reason I have them located on the under side of the wing or engine pod. I made an after dark trip to a depot to pick up a setting 5 supercharger [inboard]. Saw only the crate. Maurice Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 04:49:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:49:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Crew Skills and judgement Message-ID: <01a401c24beb$613d4bc0$cef96741@default> Mr Rencher, when you described crew duties this time, I noticed you didn't say anything about heating sandwiches! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 06:19:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:19:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. Message-ID: <4a.1080f26d.2a99c2ff@aol.com> Hi Gang, You pilots do not need to read this. I'm sure you already know all of this. I think some of you might find this interesting. Aviation gasoline weighs about 6.7 Lbs per gal. An ideal fuel air mixture is about 15 pounds of air with each pound of gasoline. That means every time one gallon of gasoline goes through your engine about 100 pounds of air should go through with it for proper combustion. On take off on our B17s the engine is turning at 2500 Revolutions per minute which means 1250 power strokes per minute per cylinder or a little over 20 per second per cylinder (There are nine cylinders on our Wright engines) This would also mean about 20 intake strokes per second. per cylinder If the intake stroke lasted one half of a revolution the intake valve would be open about 1/40th of a second. There is no such thing as suction. It's the air pressure that blows the fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber when the piston moves down and makes a low pressure area in the combustion chamber. Air pressure at sea level is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. at 18000 feet it is about 7.3 pounds per square inch It get lower as one goes up. That wouldn't move much air in 1/40th of a second. And now you know why your poor old Prez is stupid. Thinking of stuff like this instead of being in bed asleep. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 15:36:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:36:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. References: <4a.1080f26d.2a99c2ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c24c44$e804a1e0$921ed63f@default> Thanks Jack, very easy to understand. Is this the way super-charging was taught in Training? Ed Frank From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 17:08:51 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:08:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. Message-ID: <18b.d0df855.2a9a5b13@aol.com> Ed Frank, No, They did not teach this way in training. This is my own method. I see you are a P51 Man so my figures are somewhat off. I'm sorry. The D and K models used 3000 RPMs for take off and 61 inches and had a gear driven supercharger. The H model used 3000 & 91 inches. They had 12 cylinders instead of 9 so they had 1500 intake strokes per minute. and turned faster so the intake valves were open even a shorter time. The fuel ratios are the same. Thanks for your kind words. You P51, P47 and P38 Jocks are the reason a lot of us old B17 crews are still here, including me, and we are grateful to you for that. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 25 18:13:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:13:48 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. References: <4a.1080f26d.2a99c2ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D69104D.7AB79A93@attglobal.net> Well said, Mr. President, aka Jack Rencher. Except for politics, there is no such thing as suction! (Barney Frank take note). It is rather amazing to me how many do not know how an internal combustion engine works, WW#2 (the one we won) or not. I enjoy your sometimes "tongue in cheek" explanations. You usually hit it right on the nose. Also, I note in many of these exchanges, how many are concerned with certain "comfort items" which indicates that few know of what combat and service really was. We had rules then, and we followed them ... whereas today, if you do not like a rule, you protest! We KNEW we did not have certain "comfort" things, but went ahead and fought the war without them. After all WHO would be so dumb as to put a relief tube in an airplane where MOST crew members could not get to it, and, if they did, the damn thing was froze up anyhow! I suppose we should have had a PhD assigned to that so as to make our war much easier. As for relief, I used to pee out my left cockpit window. Just aim at the mike button and ordinary physics did the rest. With the gear we wore, WHO the hell could GET to the relief tube, IF it worked? Keep up the good work, Mr. Prez. Ruth says "Hi" .. Cheers! Sir William von Bsiebsehn Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Hi Gang, > You pilots do not need to read this. I'm sure you already know all of > this. I think some of you might find this interesting. > Aviation gasoline weighs about 6.7 Lbs per gal. An ideal fuel air > mixture is about 15 pounds of air with each pound of gasoline. That means > every time one gallon of gasoline goes through your engine about 100 pounds > of air should go through with it for proper combustion. On take off on our > B17s the engine is turning at 2500 Revolutions per minute which means 1250 > power strokes per minute per cylinder or a little over 20 per second per > cylinder (There are nine cylinders on our Wright engines) This would also > mean about 20 intake strokes per second. per cylinder If the intake stroke > lasted one half of a revolution the intake valve would be open about 1/40th > of a second. There is no such thing as suction. It's the air pressure that > blows the fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber when the piston moves > down and makes a low pressure area in the combustion chamber. Air pressure > at sea level is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. at 18000 feet it is about > 7.3 pounds per square inch It get lower as one goes up. That wouldn't move > much air in 1/40th of a second. > And now you know why your poor old Prez is stupid. Thinking of stuff like > this instead of being in bed asleep. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 03:16:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ANNE GRANT) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:16:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo References: <3D67AF98.28895.A64BB1@localhost> Message-ID: <000c01c24ca6$9561ec60$9e563b41@oemcomputer> Gary and Bob Kerr, Thank you for showing the picture of the flightdeck; it's very complicated looking and I'm amazed at the number of controls and gauges that it took to navigate the plane. Do our commercial planes of today have as many controls for "flying" the plane. I noticed that the co-pilot's steering column had some loose wires hanging from it. Could the co-pilot do everything with his controls that the pilot did or were his controls limited? Was this a recent photo of a re-conditioned B-17, with some of the equipment removed from that column, or was this photo taken of an actual working plane, during WW2? Do our modern, large planes have as many controls and gauges as the picture shows, or has modern technology simplified the operation and navigation of large commercial planes? These questions probably sound foolish to the pilots that were there, during the war, but I'm fascinated and in awe of the complexity of your picture and of the fact that all of those planes were flown ... and so completely and expertly maneuvered during missions, by so many brave young men from all walks of life, who surely must have wondered how they got to where they were, in that seat ... in front of that control pane,l fighting in a war of such magnitude. Thank you, again ... for showing the picture. A. Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 4:08 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo > Courtesy of Bob Kerr, here is a photo of a B-17 Flight Deck. > > http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/B17flightdeck.jpg > > (Thank's Bob!) > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 01:06:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:06:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style In-Reply-To: <3D69104D.7AB79A93@attglobal.net> Message-ID: >Surely, Sir William, your Bombardier was thoughtful enough to see that you got a fuse can for relieving yourself when the urge came. Most times we had almost a dozen of those little gems which sure came in handy...If (and that's a big IF) you were sensible enough to stream some distance from the razor-sharp edge...precaution against rough air. Disposal was easy...just check with the ball turret to see clearly back and below and there goes another quick-frozen salvo for Herr Hitler. Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303/360 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 04:32:28 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:32:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. References: <18b.d0df855.2a9a5b13@aol.com> Message-ID: <000801c24cb1$4f4a7fc0$411ed63f@default> Hello Jack, sorry to say I did not drive a P51, but in 1954 I was in a Guard outfit that flew the P 51. I did get to fly in later years as a civilian. My title is: ATP, CFII, SEMEL, AGI. But you have taught me more about the P51 K. We had the "D". Ed Frank From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 19:22:02 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:22:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #682 - 5 msgs References: <20020826160104.2A00C5359F@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <001001c24d2d$7b1d9ac0$b993bbd0@cts> Hi All: This is Spider Smith, B17 and P51 pilot. I distinctly remember peeing in a can which we placed on the Bomb bay doors so that tthey woud acompany our bomb load when it was dropped. In the P51 the Pilots releif tube was under the seat . One time I reached for it and found that the crew chief had shortened the tubing rather then replace it. I would have had to be over endowed to reaci it , so o let it go on the cockpit floor. For his mistake of shortening the tube ,the crew chief had a clean up job. Dick " Spider " Smith 360 Pilot , 1ST Scouting Force P51 Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:01 AM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #682 - 5 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Why superchargers anyway. (Jprencher@aol.com) > 2. Re: Why superchargers anyway. (William Heller) > 3. Re: B-17 Flight Deck photo (ANNE GRANT) > 4. Re: Midair relief, combat style (Bob Hand) > 5. Re: Why superchargers anyway. (Edward L Frank) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:08:51 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ed Frank, > No, They did not teach this way in training. This is my own method. I > see you are a P51 Man so my figures are somewhat off. I'm sorry. The D and K > models used 3000 RPMs for take off and 61 inches and had a gear driven > supercharger. The H model used 3000 & 91 inches. They had 12 cylinders > instead of 9 so they had 1500 intake strokes per minute. and turned faster so > the intake valves were open even a shorter time. The fuel ratios are the > same. Thanks for your kind words. You P51, > P47 and P38 Jocks are the reason a lot of us old B17 crews are still here, > including me, and we are grateful to you for that. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:13:48 -0700 > From: William Heller > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Well said, Mr. President, aka Jack Rencher. Except for politics, there is no > such thing as suction! (Barney Frank take note). > > It is rather amazing to me how many do not know how an internal combustion > engine works, WW#2 (the one we won) or not. > > I enjoy your sometimes "tongue in cheek" explanations. You usually hit it right > on the nose. Also, I note in many of these exchanges, how many are concerned > with certain "comfort items" which indicates that few know of what combat and > service really was. We had rules then, and we followed them ... whereas today, > if you do not like a rule, you protest! We KNEW we did not have certain > "comfort" things, but went ahead and fought the war without them. After all > WHO would be so dumb as to put a relief tube in an airplane where MOST crew > members could not get to it, and, if they did, the damn thing was froze up > anyhow! I suppose we should have had a PhD assigned to that so as to make our > war much easier. As for relief, I used to pee out my left cockpit window. Just > aim at the mike button and ordinary physics did the rest. With the gear we > wore, WHO the hell could GET to the relief tube, IF it worked? > > Keep up the good work, Mr. Prez. Ruth says "Hi" .. > > Cheers! > > Sir William von Bsiebsehn > > > > Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Gang, > > You pilots do not need to read this. I'm sure you already know all of > > this. I think some of you might find this interesting. > > Aviation gasoline weighs about 6.7 Lbs per gal. An ideal fuel air > > mixture is about 15 pounds of air with each pound of gasoline. That means > > every time one gallon of gasoline goes through your engine about 100 pounds > > of air should go through with it for proper combustion. On take off on our > > B17s the engine is turning at 2500 Revolutions per minute which means 1250 > > power strokes per minute per cylinder or a little over 20 per second per > > cylinder (There are nine cylinders on our Wright engines) This would also > > mean about 20 intake strokes per second. per cylinder If the intake stroke > > lasted one half of a revolution the intake valve would be open about 1/40th > > of a second. There is no such thing as suction. It's the air pressure that > > blows the fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber when the piston moves > > down and makes a low pressure area in the combustion chamber. Air pressure > > at sea level is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. at 18000 feet it is about > > 7.3 pounds per square inch It get lower as one goes up. That wouldn't move > > much air in 1/40th of a second. > > And now you know why your poor old Prez is stupid. Thinking of stuff like > > this instead of being in bed asleep. > > Best Wishes. > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "ANNE GRANT" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:16:25 -0700 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Gary and Bob Kerr, > Thank you for showing the picture of the flightdeck; it's very complicated > looking and I'm amazed at the number of controls and gauges that it took > to navigate the plane. Do our commercial planes of today have as many > controls > for "flying" the plane. I noticed that the co-pilot's steering column had > some loose > wires hanging from it. Could the co-pilot do everything with his controls > that the pilot > did or were his controls limited? Was this a recent photo of a > re-conditioned B-17, > with some of the equipment removed from that column, or was this photo taken > of an actual working plane, during WW2? > Do our modern, large planes have as many controls and gauges as the picture > shows, > or has modern technology simplified the operation and navigation of large > commercial > planes? These questions probably sound foolish to the pilots that were > there, during the > war, but I'm fascinated and in awe of the complexity of your picture and of > the fact that > all of those planes were flown ... and so completely and expertly maneuvered > during > missions, by so many brave young men from all walks of life, who surely must > have > wondered how they got to where they were, in that seat ... in front of that > control pane,l > fighting in a war of such magnitude. > Thank you, again ... for showing the picture. A. Grant > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Moncur > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 4:08 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo > > > > Courtesy of Bob Kerr, here is a photo of a B-17 Flight Deck. > > > > http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/B17flightdeck.jpg > > > > (Thank's Bob!) > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:06:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style > From: Bob Hand > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Surely, Sir William, your Bombardier was thoughtful enough to see that you got > a fuse can for relieving yourself when the urge came. Most times we had almost > a dozen of those little gems which sure came in handy...If (and that's a big > IF) you were sensible enough to stream some distance from the razor-sharp > edge...precaution against rough air. Disposal was easy...just check with the > ball turret to see clearly back and below and there goes another quick-frozen > salvo for Herr Hitler. Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303/360 > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Edward L Frank" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:32:28 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hello Jack, sorry to say I did not drive a P51, but in 1954 I was in a Guard > outfit that flew the P 51. I did get to fly in later years as a civilian. > My title is: ATP, CFII, SEMEL, AGI. > But you have taught me more about the P51 K. We had the "D". > Ed Frank > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 07:31:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:31:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo References: <3D67AF98.28895.A64BB1@localhost> <000c01c24ca6$9561ec60$9e563b41@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3D69CB51.640A2210@attglobal.net> Today's airliners have TEN times the instruments and gadgets in them than did the B17. Instrument-wise, the B17 was a very simple and easy plane to fly. Cheers! WCH ANNE GRANT wrote: > Gary and Bob Kerr, > Thank you for showing the picture of the flightdeck; it's very complicated > looking and I'm amazed at the number of controls and gauges that it took > to navigate the plane. Do our commercial planes of today have as many > controls > for "flying" the plane. I noticed that the co-pilot's steering column had > some loose > wires hanging from it. Could the co-pilot do everything with his controls > that the pilot > did or were his controls limited? Was this a recent photo of a > re-conditioned B-17, > with some of the equipment removed from that column, or was this photo taken > of an actual working plane, during WW2? > Do our modern, large planes have as many controls and gauges as the picture > shows, > or has modern technology simplified the operation and navigation of large > commercial > planes? These questions probably sound foolish to the pilots that were > there, during the > war, but I'm fascinated and in awe of the complexity of your picture and of > the fact that > all of those planes were flown ... and so completely and expertly maneuvered > during > missions, by so many brave young men from all walks of life, who surely must > have > wondered how they got to where they were, in that seat ... in front of that > control pane,l > fighting in a war of such magnitude. > Thank you, again ... for showing the picture. A. Grant > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Moncur > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 4:08 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo > > > Courtesy of Bob Kerr, here is a photo of a B-17 Flight Deck. > > > > http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/B17flightdeck.jpg > > > > (Thank's Bob!) > > -- Gary -- Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group (H) Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 07:34:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:34:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style References: Message-ID: <3D69CBE3.AF185B89@attglobal.net> We did not want any frozen pee around, Bob. My system, with my left window cracked a wee bit did the job just fine. You just rutsch up in your seat, undo the many folded crap we wore, and point the little fellow at the left mike button, and, as stated, simple physics did the rest. It froze as soon as it left the window area. Cheers! Bob Hand wrote: > >Surely, Sir William, your Bombardier was thoughtful enough to see that you got > a fuse can for relieving yourself when the urge came. Most times we had almost > a dozen of those little gems which sure came in handy...If (and that's a big > IF) you were sensible enough to stream some distance from the razor-sharp > edge...precaution against rough air. Disposal was easy...just check with the > ball turret to see clearly back and below and there goes another quick-frozen > salvo for Herr Hitler. Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303/360 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 05:36:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:36:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack's Foot in Mouth disease Message-ID: <153.1308ee9f.2a9b0a3a@aol.com> Hi Gang, Man have I caught the devil over this one? Even two phone calls. Mostly about the 100 pounds of air per one gallon of gasoline. So I must defend myself a bit. Again I'm going to talk in round figures. (No Not Girls Algonklyn) I know air is 19% oxygen (not in LA) but I'm going to say 1/5th or 20% so don't get after me please. Most fuel we use is a Hydrocarbon and there are very many of them from welding gas (C2H2) to coal, tar and asphalt' Gasoline is a blend of several of them. When we burn carbon and or hydrogen it chemically combines with oxygen and produces heat. If its in you stove the heat is what you want. If it is in an internal combustion engine like in an airplane we are not after the heat we are after the tremendous expansion the heat causes. That is really not quite right as we are after the pressures the expansion causes. This pressure pushes the piston in a cylinder and as; the piston moves it transmits its energy through rods, levers, cams, cranks, and other mechanical and electrical devices to wheels, propellers of other devices where it can be used for propulsion or whatever. I will talk about Jets Later if I am not to sleepy and you are still reading. Hydrogen is the lightest of all the elements. It is one of the most plentiful elements on the earth. A Carbon molecule is about 12 times as heavy as a hydrogen molecule. Nitrogen is 14 times heavier and oxygen is 16 times heavier. These are the elements we are dealing with in this (discussion?) Air is 1/5th oxygen and 4/5s nitrogen. (All right chemistry teachers I know this is not quite right but remember the round figures) The nitrogen does not enter into the chemical part of our fuel but as you will see later it is very important in our engine and jets. Not in your furnace. Note we are using only 20% of the air that goes through the carburetor in the combustion process (Just the oxygen component not the nitrogen) so of the 100 Pounds per gallon that goes through the carburetor we are only using 20 pounds to mix with the gallon of gasoline and the H20 molecules don't weigh near as much as the CO2 molecoles The spark from the spark plugs ignites the fuel air mixture in the combustion chamber after it is compressed about 7 to 9 times during the compression stroke. The Carbon from the fuel combines with the oxygen from the air into a carbon dioxide molecule (CO2). The hydrogen from the fuel combines with the oxygen from the air and forms water (H20). The heat from these chemical changes produce a lot of heat which expands the gasses therein (INCLUDING THE NITROGEN) and the resulting pressure pushes the piston (down?) If its a jet the pressure accelerates the gases (Mass, or Weight) out the back and the recoil therefrom pushes the jet forward. The nitrogen is a major part of the mass. (For every force there is a counter force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction) A law of physics. Like getting kicked by a shotgun. Recoil. To you folks that I confused I hope this will help and so good night to you AND To you folks that are still confused, good night to you too. (Also) Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 21:38:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:38:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style Message-ID: <110.174fdd09.2a9bebab@aol.com> bragging on your length a bit aren't you as you lift from seat window up a distance wasn't it/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 22:32:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:32:59 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style References: <110.174fdd09.2a9bebab@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6A9E8A.1F7E9889@attglobal.net> A gentleman NEVER brags on or even speaks of his length. Suffice it to say all the satisfied women are judos enough. Cheers! IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > bragging on your length a bit aren't you as you lift from seat window up a > distance wasn't it/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 04:53:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:53:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: special guest Message-ID: <00b501c24d7d$43dcf4c0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C24D53.5AA23780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leroy Audrey=20 To: 303rd BGA talk molesworth=20 Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:49 PM Subject: special guest Gentlemen: Let me break into the hanger talk and relate the following At the weekly noon luncheon meeting of the Minn. Chapter of the 8thAFHS = (also some 15th AF , navy, marines and army are present), a special = guest was present, Emily Anne Copeland, who brought along her father = Mark Copeland. 9 mos. old Emily did well during the lunch, but during = the hanger talk portion, her interest waned. You will remember Emily Anne as the child being baptized in the Chapel = of the Fallen Eagles, after the dedication ceremony. all the = grandfathers present were honored by her presencer. (see page 15 of yourJune 2002 isue of the 8th AF NEWS, Lew Lyle and his = wife Betty were stnd-in godparents, her father is PX Manager. Thanks for listening LeRoy Christenson 303rd 359th =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C24D53.5AA23780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Leroy=20 Audrey

To: 303rd=20 BGA talk molesworth

Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:49 PM

Subject: special guest

Gentlemen:

Let me break into the hanger talk and = relate the=20 following

At the weekly noon luncheon meeting of = the Minn.=20 Chapter of the 8thAFHS (also some 15th AF , navy, marines and army = are=20 present), a special guest was present, Emily Anne Copeland, who brought = along=20 her father Mark Copeland. 9 mos. old Emily did well during the lunch, = but during=20 the hanger talk portion, her interest waned.

You will remember Emily Anne as = the child=20 being baptized in the Chapel of the Fallen Eagles, after the = dedication=20 ceremony. all the grandfathers present were honored by her=20 presencer.

(see page 15 of yourJune 2002 isue of = the 8th AF=20 NEWS, Lew Lyle and his wife Betty were stnd-in godparents, her father is = PX=20 Manager.

Thanks for listening

LeRoy Christenson

303rd 359th=20

------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C24D53.5AA23780-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 06:16:48 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:16:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style Message-ID: <15a.131749af.2a9c6540@aol.com> When I was in the P51s I just rolled them upside down and it worked well until one day I forgot to open the canopy' I should have been in a stearman. In a stearman you don't need a memory after you forget to fasten your seatbelt. Beers. Old Wetface From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 05:15:02 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:15:02 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE "Relief Tube" Message-ID: <001f01c24d80$5272c0c0$46e0e13f@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C24D4E.06470260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir William von Bsiebsehn, Your talk about relief tubes reminded me of a silly conversation I had with my Dad. When I was a young boy about eleven or twelve, I asked my father, who was a navigator (Fredericks crew 360th) where you guys went to the bathroom in a B-17. His reply "Haven't you ever heard of a Pitot Tube?" I thought a pitot tube had something to do with airspeed or something and said " Isn't the pitot tube out on the wing?" His reply "Well, haven't you ever heard of wing walkers?" I always thought he was trying to be funny. I think he was trying to forget. I dont blame him. Heck he didnt have a bathroom back on the farm in Missouri, you went in the 'Thunder bucket' that was kept under the bed. Whats the big deal about peein' in a can. Bill Hoyt ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C24D4E.06470260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sir William von Bsiebsehn,

Your talk about relief tubes reminded me of a silly=20 conversation I had with my Dad.

When I was a young boy about eleven or twelve, I asked = my=20 father, who was a navigator (Fredericks crew 360th) where you guys went = to the=20 bathroom in a B-17.

His reply "Haven't you ever heard of a Pitot Tube?"

I thought a pitot tube had something to do with airspeed or=20 something and said

" Isn't the pitot tube out on the wing?"

His reply "Well, haven't you ever heard of wing walkers?"

I always thought he was trying to be funny. I think he was = trying to=20 forget. I dont blame him.

Heck he didnt have a bathroom back on the farm in Missouri, you = went in the=20 'Thunder bucket' that was kept under the bed. Whats the big deal about = peein' in=20 a can.

Bill Hoyt

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C24D4E.06470260-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 26 18:29:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Conklin) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:29:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style References: <3D69CBE3.AF185B89@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001301c24d26$1e7252e0$6401a8c0@none> One hopes the crews aft were amply warned...about the 5th contrail ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style > We did not want any frozen pee around, Bob. My system, with my left window cracked > a wee bit did the job just fine. You just rutsch up in your seat, undo the many > folded crap we wore, and point the little fellow at the left mike button, and, as > stated, simple physics did the rest. It froze as soon as it left the window area. > > Cheers! > > > > Bob Hand wrote: > > > >Surely, Sir William, your Bombardier was thoughtful enough to see that you got > > a fuse can for relieving yourself when the urge came. Most times we had almost > > a dozen of those little gems which sure came in handy...If (and that's a big > > IF) you were sensible enough to stream some distance from the razor-sharp > > edge...precaution against rough air. Disposal was easy...just check with the > > ball turret to see clearly back and below and there goes another quick-frozen > > salvo for Herr Hitler. Cheers, Bob Hand (Bombardier, Fink's Crew, 303/360 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 04:51:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ANNE GRANT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:51:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo References: <3D67AF98.28895.A64BB1@localhost> <000c01c24ca6$9561ec60$9e563b41@oemcomputer> <3D69CB51.640A2210@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000801c24d7d$0165e160$c6e83a41@oemcomputer> Thank you for your response, Bill Heller... I guess that I should have known the answer to my questions, with the newer technology, radar, high speeds, etc ... but it's still hard to visualize so many pilots and their crews being trained to fly, navigate and repair those planes in a relatively short period of time. I'm still in amazed at the picture of that flight deck and all of the instruments. Thanks again, Anne Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo > Today's airliners have TEN times the instruments and gadgets in them than did > the B17. Instrument-wise, the B17 was a very simple and easy plane to fly. > > Cheers! > > WCH > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 02:52:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:52:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] VOLUME1 #682 MESSAGE 5 Message-ID: <002b01c24d6c$620078c0$65bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C24D42.77BAB420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William Heller wrote > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:13:48 -0700 > From: William Heller > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. > Except for politics, there is no such thing as suction!=20 As an automotive mechanic for 19 years ---you have me confused. The old = windshield wipers were operated by a vacuum motor. The engine did not {of course ] = have a forced air=20 intake. The down stroke of the piston created a vacuum to pull the fuel = out of the=20 carberetor. I heard that one of the planes returning from a mission - = with two engines out - was pulling 60 inches of mercury. Evidentily I'm not as smart as I = thought.=20 WHAT is the difference between vacuum & xx inches of mercury.=20 Maurice J. Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C24D42.77BAB420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

William Heller wrote

> Message:=20 2
> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:13:48 -0700
> From: William = Heller=20 <wheller@attglobal.net>
> = Subject: Re:=20 [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway.
> Except for politics, there is no such = thing as=20 suction!

As an automotive mechanic for 19 years = ---you have=20 me confused. The old windshield

wipers were operated by a vacuum motor. = The engine=20 did not {of course ] have a forced air

intake. The down stroke of the piston = created a=20 vacuum to pull the fuel out of the

carberetor. I heard=20 that one of the planes returning from a mission - with two engines out=20 -

was pulling 60 inches of mercury. = Evidentily I'm=20 not as smart as I thought.

WHAT is the difference between vacuum = & xx=20 inches of mercury.

Maurice J. = Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C24D42.77BAB420-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 14:11:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:11:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flight Deck photo In-Reply-To: <3D69CB51.640A2210@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > > There's a great cassette out there by (the late) Jeff Ethell called "FLYING THE B-17 FORTRESS which is a great tribute to this man's contribution to the aviation scene. Makes flying the Fortress easy as fallin' off a log. Running time 43 min., produced by Teleteam, Inc., Distrib: PPE, Calif. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 15:16:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:16:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack's Foot in Mouth disease In-Reply-To: <153.1308ee9f.2a9b0a3a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6B5180.23938.AB4C12@localhost> > Man have I caught the devil over this one? Even two phone calls. > Mostly > about the 100 pounds of air per one gallon of gasoline. .... > ..... > Again I'm going to talk in round figures..... > ..... I > know air is 19% oxygen (not in LA) but I'm going to say 1/5th or 20% > ..... > Air is 1/5th oxygen and 4/5s nitrogen. (All right chemistry > teachers I > know this is not quite right but remember the round figures)... Being an EX-chemistry teacher (before going off to work with explosives and nerve gas, etc) , I think you did a fine job. :-) The teacher instinct in me compelled me to check your result. I did a quick calculation using octane to simulate the fuel, also using round figures (although I used the weight percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere rather than the volume percent), and came up with almost the same result, somewhere aroung 94 pounds. So that 100lbs seems to be a pretty good rule of thumbs, (or thumb of rules as one of my students once said). Of course I've been known to make mistakes myself, so we could both be wrong. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 19:59:34 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:59:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: No. 2 Message-ID: <105.1af13a29.2a9d2616@aol.com> What did you fighter pilots do when you had to do a number 2. Relief? I know what I did on a mission to Ulm. We almost started a nose dive from altitude after bombs away, I couldn't hold it any longer. I call my pilot and told him I couldn't wait any longer. "Get a chafe box and go to the catwalk." he replied. This I did and it was an experience trying to get out of my flight gear and steady myself on the cat walk. I was lucky I hit the box. I then closed the box and put it down on the bombay door. As soon as I could get back to the bombadiers seat and got my head set on I was called every s.o.b. name you could think of. The stink was gaging in the back of the plane. I then opened the bombay doors and away it went. I noticed we were on the outskirts of a large city over France, I hope know one was there to get bombed. Bob Morris From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 07:25:02 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:25:02 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style References: <110.174fdd09.2a9bebab@aol.com> <3D6A9E8A.1F7E9889@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001801c24d92$8f292ec0$24e8fc3e@theresa> Gentlemen All this talk of relieving oneself, whilst in flight, has made me wonder just how the Royal Air Force crews handled (excuse the unintentional pun!) this problem? I guess in only one way, as any Britisher would do.........they would have stood to attention!! I cannot ever imagine them ever doing a Bill Heller....out of the window. It's just not British! Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 17:25:03 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why superchargers anyway. In-Reply-To: <4a.1080f26d.2a99c2ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020827162503.32324.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> Jack: Your technical explantions of difficult subjects is very much appreciated!! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 27 22:05:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:05:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style References: <110.174fdd09.2a9bebab@aol.com> <3D6A9E8A.1F7E9889@attglobal.net> <001801c24d92$8f292ec0$24e8fc3e@theresa> Message-ID: <3D6BE993.418B17DA@attglobal.net> Well, Ray, most all of us know who gave us the "crapper" ... AND he was knighted! So, pun aside, I guess you do have a better "handle "on it than does the rest of the world, eh? Cheers! Sir William von Bsiebsehn "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Gentlemen > > All this talk of relieving oneself, whilst in flight, has made me wonder > just how the Royal Air Force crews handled (excuse the unintentional pun!) > this problem? > > I guess in only one way, as any Britisher would do.........they would have > stood to attention!! I cannot ever imagine them ever doing a Bill > Heller....out of the window. It's just not British! > > Ray Cossey > England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 28 06:01:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:01:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] VOLUME1 #682 MESSAGE 5 Message-ID: <152.1325afe9.2a9db32f@aol.com> Maurice J. Paulk, Air has weight. A column of air one foot square and extending up 18000 feet (a little over 3 miles) Would weigh over one half ton. The weigh of the air around sea level produces a pressure of nearly 15 pounds per square inch (14.7 I think is the average) This pressure is on everything there. every dog every cat every spider every tire and every ear drum. We don't feel it because the pressure is pushing on both sides of every thing. If our tire was flat it would mean there was 15 pounds air pressure pushing in on the outside of the tire and 15 pounds of pressure pushing out on the inside of the tire. Since the pressure is equal on both the outside and the inside of the tire they balance each other and the tire is a flat tire. If you put in on a car it would not hold up any weight but would sit down on the rim. If the tire had no leaks and you put it in an unpressureized airplane and took it up to say 40,000 feet where the air pressure is about 3 pounds per square inch the tire would be inflated the same as about 12 pounds at sea level and would hold up considerable weight without appearing completely flat. When you suck Coke (or Pepsi) out of a bottle with a straw. You are not sucking the liquid up. You are reducing the atmospheric pressure in the straw and the regular air pressure is pushing the coke (or Pepsi) up the straw. If you tried to use your straw to suck coke (or Pepsi) out of the bottle at 40,000 feet you would have a hard time getting any because there is very little air pressure there to push the coke (or Pepsi) up the straw and if your straw was a little long the weight of the coke or Pepsi in the straw would be so heavy the slight air pressure could not lift it and you would get no Coke (or pepsi) Now on your vacuum windshield motor. The vacuum on one side of the motor allowed the normal atmospheric PRESSURE to operated the washer blades. If you drove to the top of a high mountain the wind shield motor would have a lot less power just as an engine loses power at altitude because there is less PRESSURE to blow the fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber when the intake valve opens, (unless you have a supercharger to boost the pressure and blow it in. WHAT is the difference between vacuum & xx inches of mercury? Mercury is 13.6 times as heavy as water. If we took a tube and sealed one end of it and laid it down in a pan of mercury so it became completely full of mercury and lets make it a glass tube so we can see the mercury in it. WE now take the sealed end and lift it to a straight up position and leave the open end in the pan of mercury so NO air can get into the tube. At sea level the mercury will stand up in the tube on an average day 29.92 inches and we have a mercury barometer. What is holding the heavy mercury up in the tube is the PRESSURE of the atmosphere pushing down on the surface of the pan of mercury. If we put our mercury barometer in an unpressurized airplane and took it up the mercury in the tube would go down about one inch every 1000 feet that we went up. When we measure vacuum in the intake manifold on an unsuperchared engine we are measuring the inches of mercury (Pressure) below the atmospheric pressure. When we get down to one inch of pressure we can only do away with that one inch of PRESSURE. We cannot go any farther. There is no such thing as suction. Also there is no such thing as cold. Cold is just an absence of heat One more thing. Don't believe anyone operated a B17 engine at 60 inches of mercury for more than just a few minutes as it would fail and quit running forever. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 28 07:01:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:01:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack's Foot in Mouth disease Message-ID: <154.1331aaa5.2a9dc154@aol.com> Bill Jones, Thanks for your kind words and checking on me. I used 15 pounds of air per pound of gasoline which would be a lean mixture. about 12 pounds of air per pound of fuel would be a rich mixture. The engine would run cooler but the fuel tanks would run out quicker. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 28 20:16:11 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:16:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] VOLUME1 #682 MESSAGE 5 References: <152.1325afe9.2a9db32f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6D217B.73C5D89B@attglobal.net> Thank you, Mr. President, aka Jack ... One more semester in my course of Physics 101 .... I KNEW you would underwrite my statement that "there is no such thing as suction ... except in politics" ... I recall a trip when my altimeter was out of whack for some reason. I also had an engine out. Believe it or not, the MP gauge of the engine which was out provided us with a crude altimeter! Always good to hear from you. Cheers! Sir William von Bsiebsehn Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Maurice J. Paulk, > Air has weight. A column of air one foot square and extending up 18000 > feet > (a little over 3 miles) Would weigh over one half ton. The weigh of the air > around sea level produces a pressure of nearly 15 pounds per square inch > (14.7 I think is the average) This pressure is on everything there. every dog > every cat every spider every tire and every ear drum. We don't feel it > because the pressure is pushing on both sides of every thing. If our tire was > flat it would mean there was 15 pounds air pressure pushing in on the outside > of the tire and 15 pounds of pressure pushing out on the inside of the tire. > Since the pressure is equal on both the outside and the inside of the tire > they balance each other and the tire is a flat tire. If you put in on a car > it would not hold up any weight but would sit down on the rim. If the tire > had no leaks and you put it in an unpressureized airplane and took it up to > say 40,000 feet where the air pressure is about 3 pounds per square inch the > tire would be inflated the same as about 12 pounds at sea level and would > hold up considerable weight without appearing completely flat. When you suck > Coke (or Pepsi) out of a bottle with a straw. You are not sucking the liquid > up. You are reducing the atmospheric pressure in the straw and the regular > air pressure is pushing the coke (or Pepsi) up the straw. If you tried to use > your straw to suck coke (or Pepsi) out of the bottle at 40,000 feet you > would have a hard time getting any because there is very little air pressure > there to push the coke (or Pepsi) up the straw and if your straw was a little > long the weight of the coke or Pepsi in the straw would be so heavy the > slight air pressure could not lift it and you would get no Coke (or pepsi) > > Now on your vacuum windshield motor. The vacuum on one side of the motor > allowed the normal atmospheric PRESSURE to operated the washer blades. If you > drove to the top of a high mountain the wind shield motor would have a lot > less power just as an engine loses power at altitude because there is less > PRESSURE to blow the fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber when the > intake valve opens, (unless you have a supercharger to boost the pressure and > blow it in. > > WHAT is the difference between vacuum & xx inches of mercury? Mercury > is 13.6 times as heavy as water. If we took a tube and sealed one end of it > and laid it down in a pan of mercury so it became completely full of mercury > and lets make it a glass tube so we can see the mercury in it. WE now take > the sealed end and lift it to a straight up position and leave the open end > in the pan of mercury so NO air can get into the tube. At sea level the > mercury will stand up in the tube on an average day 29.92 inches and we have > a mercury barometer. What is holding the heavy mercury up in the tube is the > PRESSURE of the atmosphere pushing down on the surface of the pan of mercury. > If we put our mercury barometer in an unpressurized airplane and took it up > the mercury in the tube would go down about one inch every 1000 feet that we > went up. When we measure vacuum in the intake manifold on an unsuperchared > engine we are measuring the inches of mercury (Pressure) below the > atmospheric pressure. When we get down to one inch of pressure we can only do > away with that one inch of PRESSURE. We cannot go any farther. There is no > such thing as suction. Also there is no such thing as cold. Cold is just an > absence of heat > > One more thing. Don't believe anyone operated a B17 engine at 60 inches > of mercury for more than just a few minutes as it would fail and quit running > forever. > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 01:00:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:00:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Jack Message-ID: <003001c24eef$0d74bda0$33bb9ace@mjpmtman> Jack Rencher wrote From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:01:35 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] VOLUME1 #682 MESSAGE 5 What is holding the heavy mercury up in the tube is the PRESSURE of the atmosphere pushing down on the surface of the pan of mercury. Also there is no such thing as cold. Cold is just an absence of heat Jack Rencher +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thank You Jack---I was aware of the pressure involved in the workings of the barometer.-- Just never thought about that same pressure in the throat of the carberetor. Also "cold" is just a word. Your explanations are clear and concise and an education in themselves. Wish I had had you as an intructor during the time I spent in college [never graduated] I was exposed to education and scarlet fever--neither one "took". Maurice From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 18:48:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:48:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style.....60yrs later Message-ID: <3D6E262D.11425.14D7CE1@localhost> I enjoyed the discussion about midair relief, partly because it explained some things my late father used to do when fishing in a boat (ie he carried a can with him). :-) I thought though that some of you might enjoy listening to a recording I made of a couple F-16 pilots, who were recently flying a CAP flight protecting our leader while he was on vacation. The mission leader was helping a younger pilot understand the SOP for using what they called a piddlepac. The recording skips blank periods, so the period while he was accomplishing the feat appear to go by in a second. While flying the CAP, they could only stay on autopilot for a few minutes or they would go beyond the radius they were supposed to be in, so he had to do it in a hurry. Not sure how many can play an MP3 file, but the file is at: www.megalink.net/~wejones/piddlepac.mp3 I guess in a heated F-16, there isn't a problem of freezing, and I guess with a zip-loc bag, there isn't a cutting danger. Anyway, I think you might find it interesting and entertaining. The file is quite big, nearly a megabyte, and I don't have much space left on my ISP, so I'll only keep it there for a day or two. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 09:56:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:56:24 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID: <000501c24f3a$14d3fd90$4ce5fc3e@RAY> I have been reading a book, 'Winged Victory' which is essentially about the RAF during the war and there is a reference to 'Iron-Pants' LeMay, which I assume refers to your illustrious General. Can anyone please enlighten me as to why he was nick-named 'Iron-Pants', or was this possibly a name only used by the RAF boys? Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 21:57:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:57:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May References: <000501c24f3a$14d3fd90$4ce5fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D6E8ACB.88B01B@attglobal.net> Ray and the MBE ... The term "Iron Pants" or, as in some cases, "Iron Ass" was used by the rank and file to identify a REAL disciplinarian. I personally know an officer from Molesworth who was known as "Iron Ass" ... Why LeMay was given this nickname, or, by whom ... I cannot say for I do not know. Nowthen, years ago, on an airline crew which was diverted and delayed, the crew was put up in ONE room of a hotel which had no more rooms. Crewmembers slept where they could find a cushion or a blanket. During the night a fellow rolled over, touched the rear end of a crewmember and feeling the rivets in the denims, asked, "Who is this Iron pants?" That girl, a well liked Stewardess, was known from then on as "Iron Pants" ... but believe me, this had NOTHING to do with LeMay ... Cheers from the Colonies ... Sir William von Bsiebsehn "ray.cossey1" wrote: > I have been reading a book, 'Winged Victory' which is essentially about the > RAF during the war and there is a reference to 'Iron-Pants' LeMay, which I > assume refers to your illustrious General. > > Can anyone please enlighten me as to why he was nick-named 'Iron-Pants', or > was this possibly a name only used by the RAF boys? > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 22:16:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:16:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID: <1b8.598fa07.2a9fe949@aol.com> Ray, He was a tough, rough, Hard talking, cigar smoking mean officer. There was absolutely nothing about him that was Gentle in spite of an act of Congress that stated otherwise. He smoked around the aircraft because they were all afraid to catch on fire around him. He was well respected because he got the job done in no uncertain terms. The Iron pants nick name, no doubt, was used to be polite around the ladies and maybe the more proper English People. We had a very similar name for him but the last word was just a bit shorter and went just a bit deeper... If Bill Heller answers this take his answer It will probably be shorter and more to the point than mine is. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 30 01:00:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May In-Reply-To: <1b8.598fa07.2a9fe949@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020830000017.20853.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> I know Curtis LeMay was a hard charger in the European Theater, but he was even more harsh when he commanded the 21st Air Force in the Pacific. LeMay was under constant pressure to bomb Japan and bomb Japan effectively. The jet stream and high altitude bomb drops from the B-29s did not make a favorable impression on Hap Arnold back in the States. LeMay's predecessor was fired for not getting with the program soon enough. When LeMay arrived in the Pacific, as most of us now know, he changed tactics to low altitude bomb drops. No one had approved this strategy - he just went ahead on his own. As he said years later, "The only thing Arnold could have done was fire me." He was relentless. His crews flew around the clock. I don't remember the exact figures, but B-29 crews with the 21st AF flew something like five times more hours in the air and in a shorter period of time than Eighth crews, not to take anything away from you guys. As soon as LeMay figured out how to set a torch to Japan, he was relentless and did not cut his crews a break. He knew every bomb placed on Japan would save those poor ground pounders who were scheduled to storm the beaches. LeMay had Iron Pants, but he wasn't anything like George Patton. Lemay pushed his men hard, but he never tried to grab headlines through the blood of those serving under him. Part of the reason the cold war is now over is because of his outstanding leadership with Strategic Air Command. We have all seen the movies and heard the stories, but LeMay knew what was at stake and like Billy Mitchell and Jimmy Dolittle, he knew what air power alone could do to an enemy and used it accordingly. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 22:13:14 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Piddlepacks In-Reply-To: <3D6E262D.11425.14D7CE1@localhost> Message-ID: <20020829211314.17359.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Bill: I hope Bill Heller has MP3 technology. I can't wait to hear his reaction to this, but I am quite confident of what he is going to say! Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 29 22:30:35 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:30:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID: <92.2b1e5203.2a9fec7b@aol.com> Ray, American slang 101; If you walk up to a crew of men working and asked Which one of you fellows wears the Iron Pants?) You are asking "Which one of you fellows is the boss? With General Curtis LeMay one didn't have to ask. Best wishes again, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 30 04:24:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:24:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID:

I know most of the 8AF group points of contact in England, and have heard stories about LeMay. (Also saw him on a few occasions when I worked at SAC HQ; even after he was retired he came back annually for a courtesy briefing). When LeMay attended 305BG reunions many of the veterans refused to attend. Guess he wasn't interested in making friends, just getting the job done.

Brian S. McGuire

>From: Jprencher@aol.com

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May

>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:16:57 EDT

>Ray,

> He was a tough, rough, Hard talking, cigar smoking mean officer. There

>was absolutely nothing about him that was Gentle in spite of an act of

>Congress that stated otherwise. He smoked around the aircraft because they

>were all afraid to catch on fire around him. He was well respected because

>he got the job done in no uncertain terms. The Iron pants nick name, no

>doubt, was used to be polite around the ladies and maybe the more proper

>English People. We had a very similar name for him but the last word was

>just a bit shorter and went just a bit deeper...

>If Bill Heller answers this take his answer It will probably be shorter and

>more to the point than mine is.

> Best Wishes,

> Jack Rencher

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 30 09:52:06 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:52:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style.....60yrs later References: <3D6E262D.11425.14D7CE1@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c2505e$442330a0$58e8fc3e@RAY> All this talk of taking 'relief' whilst piloting the aircraft, reminds me of a more recent, totally unrelated, experience of a friend of mine, Martin Abbot who, at the time of the Gulf War, the Group Captain CO of RAF Coltishall, located about 7 miles from Norwich, England and which is one of our front-line fighter stations, equipped with Jaguar fighters. Martin decided to make an unannounced visit to his men in the Gulf and decided to fly one of his station's Jaguars, in company with other aircraft moving to the war site, from their home base in England. I think he said the flight took about 6 hours or so, and in order to have refreshments on the journey each pilot was issued with a pack of sandwiches and a flask of hot drink. Now the Jaguar is not equipped with any sort of auto-pilot, so in order to eat his sandwiches the pilot had to keep one hand on the stick whilst getting at and eating his food. Problem was, as Martin found to his cost, that the guys back at the mess had wrapped the sandwiches in cling-film. Consequently, the CO found it was exceedingly difficult to control the aircraft, in air turbulence, with the stick between his knees, whilst trying to get the damned cling-film from off the sandwiches! He reckoned it was almost as scary as combat. As soon as he landed in the Gulf, he had an urgent message flashed back to the UK base........'No more cling-film on aircrew sandwich packs!!..........that's an order!' Within hours neat, little plastic containers had been requisitioned for future aircrew use. Out of interest, did you vets ever take sandwiches on missions, or was eating the last thing on your mind? Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 30 20:58:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:58:18 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May References: <92.2b1e5203.2a9fec7b@aol.com> Message-ID: <001f01c25061$587026f0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Mr President Rencher Thanks for the lesson on American slang. I think I now get the hang of it....in the 303rd BG you wear the 'iron pants'! How come you Americans have so messed with what was a perfectly good language we bequeathed to you? 'Lorries' have become 'trucks'; 'petrol' has become 'gasoline'; a car now has a 'fender' instead of a 'bumper'; the 'bonnet' has become the 'hood' and the 'boot' the 'locker'. I have no doubt you Americans think the way we speak is both quaint and a little odd. Which British expression gives you the most hoots of laughter and why? Just as I didn't understand 'iron pants' do we have any sayings you need interpreting? Warmest best wishes to all my 303rd friends Ray Cossey Norwich, (pronounced 'Norridge', not ' nor-which'), England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 30 23:59:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:59:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midairhunger relief.... In-Reply-To: <000001c2505e$442330a0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: Hello, Ray: A loaded peanut butter sandwich, double-wrapped and tucked inide one's shirt was the most wanted hunger relief on the way out of enemy territory. Also an apple and likely some item like cheese and cracker packs from the packages from home. In the states, a thermos of coffee or iced tea was essential on long hops, but I don't recall lugging drinks on missions. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 03:28:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:28:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style.....60yrs later References: <3D6E262D.11425.14D7CE1@localhost> <000001c2505e$442330a0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <003001c25096$2467e3e0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> I don't know about the enlisted men on the crew besides there did not seem to be much sandwich type meat available, alot of peanut butter. I myself had some items from the K-Ration pack stuck in the knee pockets of the jump suit, i.e the biscuits, chocolate bar, it was not easy eating when your are coming back at high altitude with oxygen msk tightly fitted around your face. If you were limping home alone at lower altitudes you wee to busy being on the look out to take time out for some lunch. So I quess you learned to pack it in at breakfast and maybe take some extra to the flight line and finish that off before take-off or during the time you were circling the buncher beacon to ge into formation LeRoy Christenson ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray.cossey1" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style.....60yrs later > All this talk of taking 'relief' whilst piloting the aircraft, reminds me of > a more recent, totally unrelated, experience of a friend of mine, Martin > Abbot who, at the time of the Gulf War, the Group Captain CO of RAF > Coltishall, located about 7 miles from Norwich, England and which is one of > our front-line fighter stations, equipped with Jaguar fighters. > > Martin decided to make an unannounced visit to his men in the Gulf and > decided to fly one of his station's Jaguars, in company with other aircraft > moving to the war site, from their home base in England. I think he said the > flight took about 6 hours or so, and in order to have refreshments on the > journey each pilot was issued with a pack of sandwiches and a flask of hot > drink. > > Now the Jaguar is not equipped with any sort of auto-pilot, so in order to > eat his sandwiches the pilot had to keep one hand on the stick whilst > getting at and eating his food. Problem was, as Martin found to his cost, > that the guys back at the mess had wrapped the sandwiches in cling-film. > Consequently, the CO found it was exceedingly difficult to control the > aircraft, in air turbulence, with the stick between his knees, whilst trying > to get the damned cling-film from off the sandwiches! He reckoned it was > almost as scary as combat. > > As soon as he landed in the Gulf, he had an urgent message flashed back to > the UK base........'No more cling-film on aircrew sandwich > packs!!..........that's an order!' Within hours neat, little plastic > containers had been requisitioned for future aircrew use. > > Out of interest, did you vets ever take sandwiches on missions, or was > eating the last thing on your mind? > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 03:58:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Leroy Audrey) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:58:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May References: <92.2b1e5203.2a9fec7b@aol.com> <001f01c25061$587026f0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <003a01c2509a$47516ee0$8bab7618@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Ray over the years I have know many Canadians and have lifted gin and/or scotch toasts with them, but I still have a trunk on my car, a windshield, a windshield wiper, under the hood is a battery and it has tires. Having had to study Shakespeare in high school english classes, on arriving in England (actually Scotland was the first step taken for Uncle Sam. I and the crew were completely lost -- we hadn't studied Robert Burns) but on our train trip down thru Market Harbourgh and into Bedford it was like being in the m iddle of one Bill's plays --not really I did feel very fortunate to have been able to sample the London theatre scene, seeing Ivor Novello in the production of "Perchance to Dream", Richard Strauss conducting the pit orchesta. I had hoped to see a production of Gilbert and Sullivan by the D'Oyly Carte Light Opera Company but they had gone to war and the theatre was darkened for the duration. East-enders --I don't know what they were saying let's say that one that threw me was Que. LeRoy Christenson . ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray.cossey1" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May > Mr President Rencher > > Thanks for the lesson on American slang. I think I now get the hang of > it....in the 303rd BG you wear the 'iron pants'! > > How come you Americans have so messed with what was a perfectly good > language we bequeathed to you? 'Lorries' have become 'trucks'; 'petrol' has > become 'gasoline'; a car now has a 'fender' instead of a 'bumper'; the > 'bonnet' has become the 'hood' and the 'boot' the 'locker'. > > I have no doubt you Americans think the way we speak is both quaint and a > little odd. Which British expression gives you the most hoots of laughter > and why? Just as I didn't understand 'iron pants' do we have any sayings you > need interpreting? > > Warmest best wishes to all my 303rd friends > > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, (pronounced 'Norridge', not ' nor-which'), > England > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 05:44:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:44:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID:

Actually, Ray, the boot is the trunk, not locker. I have enjoyed my share of boot sales in England; we do not have trunk/boot sales here but flea markets and garage sales instead.

Cheers, mate.

Brian S. McGuire

>From: "ray.cossey1"

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May

>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:58:18 +0100

>Mr President Rencher

>Thanks for the lesson on American slang. I think I now get the hang of

>it....in the 303rd BG you wear the 'iron pants'!

>How come you Americans have so messed with what was a perfectly good

>language we bequeathed to you? 'Lorries' have become 'trucks'; 'petrol' has

>become 'gasoline'; a car now has a 'fender' instead of a 'bumper'; the

>'bonnet' has become the 'hood' and the 'boot' the 'locker'.

>I have no doubt you Americans think the way we speak is both quaint and a

>little odd. Which British expression gives you the most hoots of laughter

>and why? Just as I didn't understand 'iron pants' do we have any sayings you

>need interpreting?

>Warmest best wishes to all my 303rd friends

>Ray Cossey

>Norwich, (pronounced 'Norridge', not ' nor-which'),

>England

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 03:51:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:51:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May Message-ID: Dear Ray: I am truly sorry we have butchered the kings English, but we continue to change it even here in the states. My wife Louise was from the East coast New England area. When we first got married in 1947 she would say,"Take it to the back Stoup and hum it. I Had no idea what the back stoup was and if I was to Hum something it would be a song to which I had forgotten the words. My worst blunder I suppose in the Mother country was on one trip to the big city my friend and I had invited two lovely English Ladies to join us for Fish & Chips. My friend kept reaching into my plate and eating my chips after his were gone. I finely said to him." Dear flying Buddy if you keep doing that you are going to draw back a bloody stub From that moment on I was snubbed as no Gentleman would use vulgar language like that especially. in the present of a Lady. Note: my friend returned to Molesworth with both hands attached. However I never ever saw either of the Ladies again. Keep the Faith, Keep the Peace. Keep OUR language pure Keep the e-mail coming. Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 07:00:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:00:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midair relief, combat style.....60yrs later References: <3D6E262D.11425.14D7CE1@localhost> <000001c2505e$442330a0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D705B7F.14EC1DDB@attglobal.net> Ray and the MBE ... Yes we did take sandwiches along on missions. They were properly frozen after a few hours and if anyone wished to eat same, SOMEONE thawed them out with the Aldis lamp. Cheers! Sir William von Bsiebsehn "ray.cossey1" wrote: > All this talk of taking 'relief' whilst piloting the aircraft, reminds me of > a more recent, totally unrelated, experience of a friend of mine, Martin > Abbot who, at the time of the Gulf War, the Group Captain CO of RAF > Coltishall, located about 7 miles from Norwich, England and which is one of > our front-line fighter stations, equipped with Jaguar fighters. > > Martin decided to make an unannounced visit to his men in the Gulf and > decided to fly one of his station's Jaguars, in company with other aircraft > moving to the war site, from their home base in England. I think he said the > flight took about 6 hours or so, and in order to have refreshments on the > journey each pilot was issued with a pack of sandwiches and a flask of hot > drink. > > Now the Jaguar is not equipped with any sort of auto-pilot, so in order to > eat his sandwiches the pilot had to keep one hand on the stick whilst > getting at and eating his food. Problem was, as Martin found to his cost, > that the guys back at the mess had wrapped the sandwiches in cling-film. > Consequently, the CO found it was exceedingly difficult to control the > aircraft, in air turbulence, with the stick between his knees, whilst trying > to get the damned cling-film from off the sandwiches! He reckoned it was > almost as scary as combat. > > As soon as he landed in the Gulf, he had an urgent message flashed back to > the UK base........'No more cling-film on aircrew sandwich > packs!!..........that's an order!' Within hours neat, little plastic > containers had been requisitioned for future aircrew use. > > Out of interest, did you vets ever take sandwiches on missions, or was > eating the last thing on your mind? > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 16:13:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:13:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May In-Reply-To: <000501c24f3a$14d3fd90$4ce5fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: > I have been reading a book, 'Winged Victory' which is essentially about the > RAF during the war and there is a reference to 'Iron-Pants' LeMay, which I > assume refers to your illustrious General. > > Can anyone please enlighten me as to why he was nick-named 'Iron-Pants', or > was this possibly a name only used by the RAF boys? > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > > Hollywood made an attempt to characterize LeMay in the movie "CATCH 22" with the antics of the visiting geneeral, played by Orson Welles. As nutty a film as ever, depicting the insanity of war. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 18:30:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:30:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Curtis Le May References: <92.2b1e5203.2a9fec7b@aol.com> <001f01c25061$587026f0$58e8fc3e@RAY> Message-ID: <3D70FD21.E065601B@attglobal.net> Ray and the MBE ... I would imagine the use of the phrase "knocked up" would be among the most strange. I recall a young lady who claimed she would be happy if I "knocked her up" in the morning ... Cheers! Sir William von Bsiebehn "ray.cossey1" wrote: > Mr President Rencher > > Thanks for the lesson on American slang. I think I now get the hang of > it....in the 303rd BG you wear the 'iron pants'! > > How come you Americans have so messed with what was a perfectly good > language we bequeathed to you? 'Lorries' have become 'trucks'; 'petrol' has > become 'gasoline'; a car now has a 'fender' instead of a 'bumper'; the > 'bonnet' has become the 'hood' and the 'boot' the 'locker'. > > I have no doubt you Americans think the way we speak is both quaint and a > little odd. Which British expression gives you the most hoots of laughter > and why? Just as I didn't understand 'iron pants' do we have any sayings you > need interpreting? > > Warmest best wishes to all my 303rd friends > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, (pronounced 'Norridge', not ' nor-which'), > England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 31 21:08:46 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:08:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Midairhunger relief.... Message-ID: <122.16612e10.2aa27c4e@aol.com> Ray, I flew a tour as a radio operator between April and December, 1944. I've forgotten the exact timing on my responsibility as a restaurateur on missions but I think it was around D-day that I started receiving a knapsack of goodies at the RO's mission briefing. The goodies were to be passed out to the rest of the crew in any lull in activities after the bomb run. The goodies comprised a copious lean beef or ham sandwich, an orange or an apple, and usually a Hershey bar (with almonds). I flew my missions in many different aircraft in which the radio room appointments varied considerably. For example, in some I would find an infantry man's helmet modified to fit over an RO's headset, in others I would find a sufficient number of flak vests to carpet the radio room floor. In some aircraft none of those items were on hand but in most there was an item important for the restaurateur, an electrically heated hand muff that I plugged in after takeoff and stuffed with the goodies in the knapsack. That prevented the sandwiches from freezing at altitude and obviated the frequent complaints I incurred during the early days of the free lunch program. Relatedly, I saw a comment on the list once, I think by a ball turret gunner in response to a query on crew member's responsibilities, that the chief responsibility of a (non-lead) radio operator was the dispensation of the goodies. He was very close to being 100% correct, although there were occasional emergencies were the radio operator could provide important service. Lo' Bob