Hold on, Jack! I understand the B-17, but I haven't heard the girls and biscuits and gravy stories yet. (?????)
Brian S. McGuire
>From: Jprencher@aol.com
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:44:40 EDT
>
>Dear Friend Ray:
> Gasoline also know as petrol is no doubt highly flammable. As far as I
>know all our propeller driven bombers used the stuff for fuel. Oil is
>somewhat flammable but has a high flashpoint. Metal airplanes such as B17s
>and B24s are not very flammable without the above two items. I suppose a
>wooden aircraft such as a mosquito would burn a bit but I doubt if that would
>be a problem
> Personally I don't know where he got the idea that the B17 was subject to
>fires. I flew 35 missions in B17s. We had holes in the plane on 32 of these
>missions. sometimes just 2 or 5 or so and once over 300. One in the wing big
>enough one could throw a large lounge chair through it if one had a lounge
>chair and was quite strong. Many of the fragments and bullets that went
>through our plane no doubt went through the fuel tanks as they used up most
>of the wing area. Our self sealing tanks worked great and we never once had a
>fire it the fuel tank area. We did on two occasions have engine fires, but
>in both cases it was gasoline (petrol) that was burning and the fires blew
>out when we got the fuel shut off and the engines feathered. I don't want to
>start an other war here but I have seen B24s lose a wing and go down on fire
>which appeared to be in the main spar which I understand was used as a fuel
>tank.
> We have all seen pictures of damaged B17s to which I cannot add
>anything. but personally our greatest damage was our 300 plus hole damage
>from a mission to Merseburg. We got home back to Molesworth with 2 engines
>out no brakes, one flat tire, No throttle control on one of our two engines.
>and no elevator control except the trim tab. Note: We did not stay in
>formation on the way home. I put all our mixtures in Idle cut off, shut off
>all the switches on short final and landed dead stick. All 10 of us walked
>away with not one wounded crew member but I think our poor bird went to the
>scrap pile. I never saw it again while I was there. We did not know about
>our flat tire until we landed but it was a blessing. We had no brakes but the
>flat tire pulled us off the runway into a big circle on the grass and we came
>to a gentle stop.
> We were the last ones to land that day as we were a bit slow getting
>back to Molesworth. Now you know why I love B17s, Girls and Fried Chicken
>with biscuits and gravy.
> Best Wishes Ray and Wife,
> Jack Rencher
Mr President Rencher
I agree with Brian McGuire. We know you =
know just=20
about all there is to know about the B-17, but what's this with the =
'girls,=20
fried chicken and biscuits and gravy'.
During the war, we know some of you =
'had' (can't=20
think of any more polite way to put it) some of our girls. You may well =
have had=20
plenty of fried chicken, but only on base, as we English folk never had =
enough=20
meat to feed a flea!
As for the 'biscuits and gravy', what =
is that all=20
about? Come on, Mr President, come clean on all three =
items!
Warmest personal regards, =
Jack
Ray & Theresa (her with the=20
MBE)
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C242B6.5BD4F7C0--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 20:05:25 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:05:25 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
Message-ID: <91.217e0638.2a8ab275@aol.com>
Brian,
I was just bragging a bit about the Girls and the biscuits and gravy are
just really out of the question as I get to fat to fast. The B17 had an
element of truth in it but I am rather fond of P63s, P38s and Beech Bonanzas
too. Not near so much as B17s though as we have been through Hell and High
water (Clouds) to much and to often not to have bonded. What a privilege for
someone like me to have a friend like you.
Thank You. Best Wishes,
Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 13:12:26 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:12:26 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] last evening ,viewed memphis belle on dvd.
In-Reply-To: <20020813000039.40452.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
Something missing from every intercom transmission in 'Belle and others was
the heartbeat of the person involved, plus pickup of the engine's roar
sometimes a hasty prayer, etc., etc. And of course, those spanking clean
uniforms of the Hollywood version were a give-away. Not to mention the full
size cut-out reproductions of B-17s stashed in the distance to resemble
actual aircraft. Still nothing there like Hughes' "Hell's Angels"
Cheers! Bob Hand
>
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 20:41:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:41:47 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intercom communication
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272AF@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Bill,
Thanks for the intercom answer. As for the burning bomb, that had to be an
incendiary, right?
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: William Heller [mailto:wheller@attglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:50 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intercom communication
The intercome was a "party" line. But, a well disciplined crew would know if
a
situation obtained whereby the pilot and copilot (or any other crewmembers)
needed the line to themselves. We never had these problems on our crew, BUT,
having the party line assisted greatly in how the crew reacted to certain
situations. On one mission I had to order my R/O to go into the bomb bay and
dislodge a burning bomb if he had to go out with it. The Right Waist Gunner
heard this, watched as the R/O did as ordered and IMMEDIATELY went forward
with
a walk-around bottle AND pulled the R/O from the open bomb bay AFTER he had
dislodged the bomb. The R/O received a medal for his bravery. Also,m NBC in
the States, in the area of the R/O's home, did a nice 15 minute Radio bit
for
him.
Cheers!
"Tooley, Dave" wrote:
> Hi List,
> Once you guys went on oxygen you had to communicate through the intercom.
> Was it possible for people to talk to each other without everyone hearing
> the conversation? For instance, could the P and CP talk privately or the
> Nav and Bom?
>
> What got me thinking on this was if there was an emergency situation,
engine
> on fire or some such, the P and CP would definitely be chatting. So would
> it be possible for other crewmen to talk over the conversation? I would
> think that this would not be a good thing as a command given by the P
could
> be missed or misunderstood and cause a further problem.
>
> Dave
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 20:44:48 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:44:48 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Bill Mauldin
Message-ID:
Concerning "Up Front" Cartoonist Bill Mauldin
He suffered terrible burns in a household accident a while back; his health
has deteriorated grievously, and his cognitive functions are barely working.
He lives in a room in a nursing home in Orange County, Calif., and sometimes
days at a time go by without him saying a word. He was married three times,
but the last one ended in divorce, and at 80 in the nursing home Mauldin is
a single man.
Members of his family have said that, even though Bill hardly
communicates, the one thing that cheers him up is hearing from World War II
guys -- the men for whom he drew those magnificent cartoons.
But it's his World War II contemporaries he seems to need now. The guys for
whom -- in the words of Mauldin's son David -- Mauldin's cartoons "were like
water for men dying of thirst." David Mauldin said his dad needs to hear
that he meant something to those men.
He needs visitors, and he needs cards of encouragement. I'm not going to
print the name of the nursing home, so that this can be done in a
disciplined and scheduled way. A newspaper colleague in Southern
California -- Gordon Dillow -- has done a wonderful job organizing this, and
he will take your cards to the nursing home. You may send them to Bill
Mauldin in care of Dillow at the Orange County Register, 625 N. Grand Ave.,
Santa Ana, CA 92701.
What would be even better, for those of you World War II veterans who are
reading these words in California, or who plan on traveling there soon,
would be if you could pay a visit to Mauldin just to sit with him a while.
You can let me know if you are willing to do this (bgreene@tribune.com), or
you can let Gordon Dillow know (gldillow@aol.com).
Bill Mauldin brought hope, and smiles in terrible hours, to millions of his
fellow soldiers. If you were one of them, and you'd like to repay the favor,
this would be the time.
Greg Pierce
E-mail gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 21:20:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:20:10 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intercom communication
References: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272AF@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <3D5969F9.AF7775A2@attglobal.net>
Yep!
WCH
"Tooley, Dave" wrote:
> Bill,
> Thanks for the intercom answer. As for the burning bomb, that had to be an
> incendiary, right?
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Heller [mailto:wheller@attglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:50 AM
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intercom communication
>
> The intercome was a "party" line. But, a well disciplined crew would know if
> a
> situation obtained whereby the pilot and copilot (or any other crewmembers)
> needed the line to themselves. We never had these problems on our crew, BUT,
> having the party line assisted greatly in how the crew reacted to certain
> situations. On one mission I had to order my R/O to go into the bomb bay and
> dislodge a burning bomb if he had to go out with it. The Right Waist Gunner
> heard this, watched as the R/O did as ordered and IMMEDIATELY went forward
> with
> a walk-around bottle AND pulled the R/O from the open bomb bay AFTER he had
> dislodged the bomb. The R/O received a medal for his bravery. Also,m NBC in
> the States, in the area of the R/O's home, did a nice 15 minute Radio bit
> for
> him.
>
> Cheers!
>
> "Tooley, Dave" wrote:
>
> > Hi List,
> > Once you guys went on oxygen you had to communicate through the intercom.
> > Was it possible for people to talk to each other without everyone hearing
> > the conversation? For instance, could the P and CP talk privately or the
> > Nav and Bom?
> >
> > What got me thinking on this was if there was an emergency situation,
> engine
> > on fire or some such, the P and CP would definitely be chatting. So would
> > it be possible for other crewmen to talk over the conversation? I would
> > think that this would not be a good thing as a command given by the P
> could
> > be missed or misunderstood and cause a further problem.
> >
> > Dave
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 21:37:04 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:37:04 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "The Man Who Flew the Memphis Belle"
Message-ID:
I would echo what Kevin has written about Col. Robert Morgan's book
"The Man Who Flew the Memphis Belle". I checked it out of
the library and found his story to be balanced and honest.
He shared his high points and low points, victories and failures.
It added dimension to the Memphis Belle story.
For the recorded gentlemen their were two movies entitled "Memphis Belle".
The 1943 USAAF movie/documentary and the 1989 Warner Brothers "Fiction"
movie.
The 1989 version was very fictional and heavily "Hollywoodized" and did
not give a good account of what the 8th AF/B-17 crews was about.
I say that Hollywood has yet to match 12 o'clock High!
Did you hit anything up there Harvey?
Well Sir, my glasses were a bit fogged up but I think I got a piece of one!
Ours or theirs?
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 22:58:14 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:58:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] last evening ,viewed memphis belle on dvd.
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020813215814.5701.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Bob: Thanks for your comments about the cut out B-17s
in the distance. I will look for these tonight as I
don't remember seeing them before.
Kevin
__________________________________________________
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 23:12:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "The Memphis Belle"
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020813221216.7881.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
I know the 1989 movie The Memphis Belle was totally
innacurate, but seeing those Forts in flight, you must
admit, it still is an awesome sight. I wasn't there
with you fellows, and I know the inaccuracies raise
your hackles, but I still watch both movies from time
to time.
12 o'clock high was a great movie, probably the best,
but I still like The War Lover with Steve McQueen.
The set(s) used had to be at a former English base.
Steve McQueen even had real RAF Flying Boots, which
were preferred over the American made version from
what I have been told.
Do any of you have any thoughts on the movie The War
Lover. Sure the Hollywood story line is totally out
of step with reality, but the combat footage and
flying sequences appear accurate. ( I'm still a
sucker for that Big Triangle A, not to mention
Triangle Cs!!)
Kevin
__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 13 23:49:37 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:49:37 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] last evening ,viewed memphis belle on dvd.
In-Reply-To: <20020813215814.5701.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
The B-17 "cut-outs" are hardly detectable...Hollywood's good at that. For a
great read, see a book called "Celluloid Wings" The Impact of Movies on
Aviation. By James H. Farmer TAB BOOKS, INC. Book has a completely detailed
description of the making of "12 O'Clock High" but was in print before the
making of the Hollywood version of " Memphis Belle"...it does, however, have
a short write-up of the 1944 version, which names groups, individuals, who
contributed to making the film. Will have to run through my tape to see if
I can spot the phony phortresses. Used to be easy when they flew Travelair
Biplanes painted to look like Fokkers in the oldies.
Good Health and Cheers....Bob Hand
>
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 00:19:34 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020813231934.36620.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
Bob: I love your description of Phony Phortresses!
Brilliant, to use a phrase of my friends across the
pond! And thanks a bunch for that reference to
"Celluloid Wings." I am most interested in anything
about the original Memphis Belle movie and will
definitely try to find it. If you can spot about
where the phony phorts are on the tape, I'd sure like
to know.
I am absolutely amazed at what you guys have and are
teaching me and it is very much appreciated! You guys
are the best!!
Cheers!
Kevin
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 02:42:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:42:52 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
Message-ID:
Au contraire, mon ami. The honor is mine.
VR,
Brian
Brian S. McGuire
>From: Jprencher@aol.com
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
>Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:05:25 EDT
>
>Brian,
> I was just bragging a bit about the Girls and the biscuits and gravy are
>just really out of the question as I get to fat to fast. The B17 had an
>element of truth in it but I am rather fond of P63s, P38s and Beech Bonanzas
>too. Not near so much as B17s though as we have been through Hell and High
>water (Clouds) to much and to often not to have bonded. What a privilege for
>someone like me to have a friend like you.
> Thank You. Best Wishes,
> Jack
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 03:01:02 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:01:02 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
Message-ID:
Ray -
I had idea idea Theresa was an MBE. Quite an honor. Please offer my congrats. While I was in England I helped Mick Sargeant, friend of Bill Adams, nominate get Bill for inclusion in the Queen's annual honors, but, alas, it has not come to pass.
Brian S. McGuire
>From: "ray.cossey1"
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
>Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:44:11 +0100
>
>Mr President Rencher
>
>I agree with Brian McGuire. We know you know just about all there is to know about the B-17, but what's this with the 'girls, fried chicken and biscuits and gravy'.
>
>During the war, we know some of you 'had' (can't think of any more polite way to put it) some of our girls. You may well have had plenty of fried chicken, but only on base, as we English folk never had enough meat to feed a flea!
>
>As for the 'biscuits and gravy', what is that all about? Come on, Mr President, come clean on all three items!
>
>Warmest personal regards, Jack
>
>Ray & Theresa (her with the MBE)
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 03:07:12 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:07:12 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Prone to flames
Message-ID: <182.ca76721.2a8b1550@aol.com>
oui!!!
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 07:52:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 02:52:10 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] My conduct in England
Message-ID: <113.15b77249.2a8b581a@aol.com>
Dear Friend Ray:
Because of my letter concerning our B17s in your wonderful land I would
like to clarify what might have been somewhat misleading. Believe me I am
not talking about some of my fellow airman in the following statements but I
feel sure I am speaking for more than our reputation would have you believe.
While your guest in your land I did NOT (Never ever) not even once. do
any of the following:(1) Violate any Young (or old) English girls. (2) Fly
into and knock down any Church steeples (3) Eat fried chicken unless it was
in an army mess hall and I have no recollection of even doing that. (4) Pick
up or patronize any Picadilly commandos (5) learn how to spell Picadilly.I
did eat fish & chips a few times and felt guilty about that. I also held
hands a bit with 2 sisters Molly and Sheila Baker. I wish I knew what
happened to them I was very fond of them. I left my very good BSA bicycle
for their Brother In Law, who was in the English Army, when I left. I hope he
survived and got it. Good Night Ray. It's about 8:45AM where you are unless
of course you are somewhere else and if so I have no idea what time it is
where ever that may be.
Very Best Wishes,
Jack
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 05:39:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:39:43 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Wyler film footage
In-Reply-To: <20020813160224.3D27153698@pairlist.net>
Message-ID:
While Kevin is certainly right that the Hollywood types weren't too
fussy about cutting scenes and aircraft out of context into their
"documentaries," let me insert a comment to the discussion, if I may.
Don't know how many times I've watched Wm. Wyler's "Memphis Belle," but
it's a bunch (I could only stand to watch his daughter Susan's version
twice without yelling back at the screen). And every time I saw it, I
smugly said to myself "Look at those QE's and XM's. They're not even
from the 91st !"
True enough, but had I dug a little deeper, I would have learned that QE
& XM are from the 331st and 332nd Squads of the 94th and that in May of
'43, the 94th was sharing bases with the 91st at Bassingbourn and the
306th at Thurleigh while they waited for their own base at Rougham to be
ready for them. So the footage showing them taking off with the Belle
is accurate!
When you have gasbags like Andy Rooney and plagiarists like some
"authorities" who have worked their way into positions of honor at our
most sacred museums, it's easy (and often accurate) to tar and feather
the PR flacks working for Hollywood and the War Department during the
war. But sometimes there are actually little gems of trivia to be
learned from what seem to be errors.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 12:46:24 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 06:46:24 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] "The Man Who Flew the Memphis Belle"
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC0043198168803272B1@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Greg,
I concur completely on your 12 O'clock High statement. Best movie of it's
kind ever. And you even mentioned my favorite scene in the movie!! What a
guy!! You made my morning!!
Thanks!
Dave
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 13:06:47 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 07:06:47 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle Documentary
Message-ID: <002201c2438b$11b9ce60$6c68db40@billowen>
Kevin and others that want to see the Memphis Belle documentary made by
William Wyler in 1943. I asked my local Blockbuster video store to see if
they might have it and sure enough they came up with it. It took a few days
but they found it and I rented it.
Cheers, Bill Owen
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 13:39:00 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
In-Reply-To: <20020813231934.36620.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch the antics of
McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob Wagner and his
sweetie...there was one of these characters on every base. He cuts in on the
dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all evening wining and
dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just couldn't help
myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 13:52:58 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:52:58 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] I phound it, I phound it!
In-Reply-To: <20020813231934.36620.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
I knew I'd phind it if I looked long enough...another definitive book on
stunt flying in the movies...oddly enough called "STUNT FLYING IN THE
MOVIES" BY Jim & Maxine Greenwood, TAB BOOKS (1982) Great read and chuck
phull of photos and phacts on the pilots who made movies exciting...Tallman
and Mantz are all over the place.> Unphortunately, this book preceded the
latter philming of "Memphis Belle". Good Health and Cheers, Bob Hand
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 16:56:16 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Wyler film footage
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020814155616.47958.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com>
Mike, that is another very facinating fact I did not
know. Thanks for contributing. I have also heard
Wylder made 20 versions of Memphis Belle before he was
finally satisfied with the final version.
Cheers
Kevin
--- Mike McClanahan wrote:
> While Kevin is certainly right that the Hollywood
> types weren't too
> fussy about cutting scenes and aircraft out of
> context into their
> "documentaries," let me insert a comment to the
> discussion, if I may.
>
> Don't know how many times I've watched Wm. Wyler's
> "Memphis Belle," but
> it's a bunch (I could only stand to watch his
> daughter Susan's version
> twice without yelling back at the screen). And
> every time I saw it, I
> smugly said to myself "Look at those QE's and XM's.
> They're not even
> from the 91st !"
>
> True enough, but had I dug a little deeper, I would
> have learned that QE
> & XM are from the 331st and 332nd Squads of the 94th
> and that in May of
> '43, the 94th was sharing bases with the 91st at
> Bassingbourn and the
> 306th at Thurleigh while they waited for their own
> base at Rougham to be
> ready for them. So the footage showing them taking
> off with the Belle
> is accurate!
>
> When you have gasbags like Andy Rooney and
> plagiarists like some
> "authorities" who have worked their way into
> positions of honor at our
> most sacred museums, it's easy (and often accurate)
> to tar and feather
> the PR flacks working for Hollywood and the War
> Department during the
> war. But sometimes there are actually little gems
> of trivia to be
> learned from what seem to be errors.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 14 17:07:32 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack Parker)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:07:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] New member
Message-ID: <000801c243ac$b40445d0$04a985ce@yourg4lzvxou0c>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is to inform all members that my dad, Jack Parker is now on the =
chat line. He's new to computers so it may take a while for him to =
respond.My name is J.D. Parker and my address is j.d.parker@juno.com. =
Dad was in the 359th from May to Nov. '44. He was Co-pilot with William =
Morgan's group until he got his own plane. His picture is on your site =
and he was the pilot of the Bonnie B when it received the damage shown =
in the picture. Dad's health is failing ( He's 80 ) but we will try to =
get him to share as much of his experiences as possible. Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is to inform all members that my =
dad, Jack=20
Parker is now on the chat line. He's new to computers so it may take a =
while for=20
him to respond.My name is J.D. Parker and my address is j.d.parker@juno.com. Dad was in =
the 359th=20
from May to Nov. '44. He was Co-pilot with William Morgan's group until =
he got=20
his own plane. His picture is on your site and he was the pilot of the =
Bonnie B=20
when it received the damage shown in the picture. Dad's health is =
failing ( He's=20
80 ) but we will try to get him to share as much of his experiences as =
possible.=20
Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 00:32:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:32:56 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] New member
Message-ID:
welcome jack parker . jump in tell us all about it
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 03:17:31 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:17:31 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
Message-ID:
One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout scene, where they use a model and toy parachute and it looked so fake you couldn't help but to laugh. Even the end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked so fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would be interested in what others may think of the rest of the movie.
Brian S. McGuire
>From: Bob Hand
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
>
>I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch the antics of
>McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob Wagner and his
>sweetie...there was one of these characters on every base. He cuts in on the
>dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all evening wining and
>dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just couldn't help
>myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 06:28:56 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:28:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Wylers and movies
In-Reply-To: <20020814160114.77D475374F@pairlist.net>
Message-ID:
For some reason I keep referring to Wm Wyler's daughter as Susan, when
her name is Catherine, as Kevin correctly stated in his message. Must
be some sort of Phreudian thing.
Re the '43 Memphis Belle and The War Lover, I was able to check both out
from the Denver Public Library with my library card (saved a few bucks).
I'm gonna try Combat America and Command Decision next time I'm there.
Sometimes larger libraries are a good source for hard-to-find movies.
Mike McClanahan
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 09:20:59 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:20:59 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
References:
Message-ID: <3D5B646A.6310F6DC@attglobal.net>
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The movie was a total joke, Brian. A vehicle for McQueen who
had not just made it yet. And, an opportunity to use some of
the "morgue" shots that those Motion Picture Units had after
working at our Air Bases. Some say 12 O'clock High was
about as original as you can get. Especially the Dean Jagger
scene at the beginning and end. I agree with that. But for
me, BEING there was as actual as you can get and yet, today,
there are those who just do not want to hear us tell it like
it was .... The other day a local young lady saw my 8th AF
Bolo Tie and asked me what it represented. When I told her
it was from the famous 8th AF of WW#2, she asked me WHEN was
WW#2! As I began to tell her, I stopped and asked, "What
do you do for a living?" She said she was an elementary
school teacher! It is to be sad.
Cheers!
Brian McGuire wrote:
>
>
> One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout
> scene, where they use a model and toy parachute and it
> looked so fake you couldn't help but to laugh. Even the
> end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked
> so fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would
> be interested in what others may think of the rest of the
> movie.
>
> Brian S. McGuire>From: Bob Hand
> >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony
> Phortresses
> >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
> >
> >I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch
> the antics of
> >McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob
> Wagner and his
> >sweetie...there was one of these characters on every
> base. He cuts in on the
> >dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all
> evening wining and
> >dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just
> couldn't help
> >myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
> >
> >
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your
> photos: Click Here
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The movie was a total joke, Brian. A vehicle for McQueen who had not just
made it yet. And, an opportunity to use some of the "morgue" shots that
those Motion Picture Units had after working at our Air Bases. Some
say 12 O'clock High was about as original as you can get. Especially the
Dean Jagger scene at the beginning and end. I agree with that. But
for me, BEING there was as actual as you can get and yet, today, there
are those who just do not want to hear us tell it like it was ....
The other day a local young lady saw my 8th AF Bolo Tie and asked me what
it represented. When I told her it was from the famous 8th AF of WW#2,
she asked me WHEN was WW#2! As I began to tell her, I stopped
and asked, "What do you do for a living?" She said she was an elementary
school teacher! It is to be sad.
Cheers!
Brian McGuire wrote:
One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout scene, where they
use a model and toy parachute and it looked so fake you couldn't help but
to laugh. Even the end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked
so fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would be interested
in what others may think of the rest of the movie.
Brian S. McGuire>From:
Bob Hand
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
>
>I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch the antics
of
>McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob Wagner and
his
>sweetie...there was one of these characters on every base. He cuts
in on the
>dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all evening wining
and
>dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just couldn't
help
>myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click
Here
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 10:13:52 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mary Jo Hangartner)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:13:52 +0000
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
Message-ID:
I am the daughter of a member of the 8th Air Force (James M. Pierce), who
had to bail out of his B-17 on his 11th mission, and who was at Molesworth
from May 27, 1944 to October 6, 1944. I am also an 8th grade Language Arts
teacher who teaches an extensive WWII literature unit. I would just like to
say that it was not until the Hollywood version of the movie that my dad
even began to talk about his war experiences, and he still is quite guarded
about what he will share with his family. I have often asked him if he
would speak to my students, and he refuses, partly because that just is not
his style, and partly because of the questions that the 8th grade boys will
ask.
I use the Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle" in my classroom after we have
also read the play "The Diary of Anne Frank." Then we have a boy's and a
girl's perspective, two different countries and two very different
situations, but both of young people and how they were affected by WWII. I
also have available "Suicide Missions, Ball Turret Gunners" which I bought
for Dad as he does not have cable to watch it. Am I giving my students a
terribly inaccurate picture by using these Hollywood versions of movies? My
thoughts are that at least I am getting them interested and asking questions
about that point in history.
Dad has also pointed out many things about the Hollywood "Memphis Belle"
which were not accurate at all.
In the end, my students are asked to find someone else's story, someone who
was also between the ages of 10 and 25 during the war, anywhere in the
world, and then they write and tell the class the story that they have
found. They can use true accounts in books, interview someone in person, or
correspond with someone via email. I will retell them my dad's story, as
best I know it, as an example. Every year there are a handful of students,
mostly boys, who comment that this is "the best" thing that we have done in
this class. Others have commented that my class is more like Social Studies
than Language Arts ; I also consider that a compliment as I tend to enjoy
true stories even more than the fictional ones.
Just wanted to let you know that I am doing my best to generate interest in
what these men did out of appreciation to all of you and Dad, but at the
same time hope that I am not over-glamorizing war. The kids have brought in
some interesting speakers on their own, as well as audio and videotapes to
accompany their written stories.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 16:07:35 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bill runnels)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20020815150735.76664.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com>
Mary Jo, thanks for your outstanding work on teaching
the WW11 Literature unit. Movies like " Memphis
Belle" are intended to be entertaining. They also
tell a story that needs to be remembered. Those of us
who experienced a bit of the action can identify the
many flaws but so be it. Keep up the terrific effort.
It is appreciated......Bill Runnels, Bombardier
--- Mary Jo Hangartner <hangart@salamander.com>
wrote:
> I am the daughter of a member of the 8th Air
Force
> (James M. Pierce), who
> had to bail out of his B-17 on his 11th mission,
and
> who was at Molesworth
> from May 27, 1944 to October 6, 1944. I am also
an
> 8th grade Language Arts
> teacher who teaches an extensive WWII literature
> unit.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 18:00:43 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:00:43 -0700
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Teaching WWII History 101
Message-ID:
Dear Mary,
First off, thank you for making the effort to teach on this subject called
WWII.
It shaped the world and the doctrines that we live in today, it also shaped,
killed and mamed millions of indivduals from that time period. I have
studied history
for years and majored in it while in College. You pose the question:
"Am I giving my students a terribly inaccurate picture by using these
Hollywood
versions of movies?
If you going to teach HISTORY give the student FACT's not someone else
FICTION
that was designed to make money i.e. Hollywood movies. Your best source of
historical
facts are from the people who were there! Make good use of these great
veterans NOW.
I was invited to talk to a High School history class and took 303rd BG pilot
Col. Mel Schulstad with me, we were aghast to learn that the teacher was
using
the Black Humor / Fictitious Book "Catch-22" for teaching history, this to
me
was VERY misguided and showed the ignorance of the teacher.
In Summary:
If the student is truly interested in the subject he or she will "dig"
deeper and
form their own opinions, give them a good fact filled baseline to start
from. The
Men and Woman who fought and died in this world wide effort deserve nothing
less.
The best debates are based upon irrefutable facts.
Thank you,
One Pierce's opnion.
Greg Pierce
President, 8th AFHS - WA Chapter
E-mail gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:13:52 +0000
From: "Mary Jo Hangartner"
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
I am the daughter of a member of the 8th Air Force (James M. Pierce), who
had to bail out of his B-17 on his 11th mission, and who was at Molesworth
from May 27, 1944 to October 6, 1944. I am also an 8th grade Language Arts
teacher who teaches an extensive WWII literature unit. I would just like to
say that it was not until the Hollywood version of the movie that my dad
even began to talk about his war experiences, and he still is quite guarded
about what he will share with his family. I have often asked him if he
would speak to my students, and he refuses, partly because that just is not
his style, and partly because of the questions that the 8th grade boys will
ask.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 16:59:13 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:59:13 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
Message-ID: <4DF4786A05BDCA4BA5AC00431981688032BA28@a0001-xpo0113-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Mary Jo,
First let me say that I wish there were more teachers out there like you.
Keep up the excellent job!!
Now for Memphis Belle (MB) and my 2 cents. Technically MB is not completely
accurate. You've read enough here over the last few days to understand
that.
However, let's look at the movie from a human standpoint. What does the
movie tell us: these were young men from everywhere and every background.
They were scared, they had dreams and plans for the future, they were loyal
to each other and they set their inadequacies aside when another was in
need, it hurt when another plane went down, their commanding officer cared
deeply about them, they each dealt with the war in their own way, one guy
was so MACHO that he wrote poetry and when read to the others was not
chastised or laughed at, but respected.
Need I go on? Kids today need to understand more about the PEOPLE who
lived, fought and died during that horrible time. On both sides of the
conflict. War is evil, dirty, bloody and a disgusting event. So what if MB
isn't technically correct. It still has some value in other respects. When
my wife and sons watched this movie, they didn't say, Hey you can't walk
around at 20,000 feet without oxygen! They said, Hey, these guys went
through hell and I really respect and admire what they did. I hope that my
3 sons won't have to experience what their grandfathers and uncles had to.
Okay I'll climb down from the soapbox. I would like to suggest another
movie to view and that is 12 O'clock High. More accurate technically and
just as human. In my opinion it's one of the finest movies made of any
kind, anywhere.
Take care,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Jo Hangartner [mailto:hangart@salamander.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:14 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
I am the daughter of a member of the 8th Air Force (James M. Pierce), who
had to bail out of his B-17 on his 11th mission, and who was at Molesworth
from May 27, 1944 to October 6, 1944. I am also an 8th grade Language Arts
teacher who teaches an extensive WWII literature unit. I would just like to
say that it was not until the Hollywood version of the movie that my dad
even began to talk about his war experiences, and he still is quite guarded
about what he will share with his family. I have often asked him if he
would speak to my students, and he refuses, partly because that just is not
his style, and partly because of the questions that the 8th grade boys will
ask.
I use the Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle" in my classroom after we have
also read the play "The Diary of Anne Frank." Then we have a boy's and a
girl's perspective, two different countries and two very different
situations, but both of young people and how they were affected by WWII. I
also have available "Suicide Missions, Ball Turret Gunners" which I bought
for Dad as he does not have cable to watch it. Am I giving my students a
terribly inaccurate picture by using these Hollywood versions of movies? My
thoughts are that at least I am getting them interested and asking questions
about that point in history.
Dad has also pointed out many things about the Hollywood "Memphis Belle"
which were not accurate at all.
In the end, my students are asked to find someone else's story, someone who
was also between the ages of 10 and 25 during the war, anywhere in the
world, and then they write and tell the class the story that they have
found. They can use true accounts in books, interview someone in person, or
correspond with someone via email. I will retell them my dad's story, as
best I know it, as an example. Every year there are a handful of students,
mostly boys, who comment that this is "the best" thing that we have done in
this class. Others have commented that my class is more like Social Studies
than Language Arts ; I also consider that a compliment as I tend to enjoy
true stories even more than the fictional ones.
Just wanted to let you know that I am doing my best to generate interest in
what these men did out of appreciation to all of you and Dad, but at the
same time hope that I am not over-glamorizing war. The kids have brought in
some interesting speakers on their own, as well as audio and videotapes to
accompany their written stories.
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 15 21:36:45 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:36:45 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Living History
Message-ID: <3c.22ab50b9.2a8d6add@aol.com>
--part1_3c.22ab50b9.2a8d6add_boundary
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I'm writing in response to Mary Jo Hargartner. I understand how difficult it
can be to get information from your Dad. Mine is the same way. (You guys who
know him won't believe it, but is true.) I've learned his story over the
years primarily in a secondhand fashion he'll talk to others much easier than
his own kids. I urge you to find someone to record you Dad's story. One of
state university's history dept. sent some to interview Dad (my sister-in-law
sat back in a corner a video taped it) and he gave them the letters that he
sent home and vise versa and they are now part of the archives. Also,
Congress passed a resolution to record the personal histories of as many vets
of 20th century conflicts as possible. It's the responsibility of each
state's senators to see that it's done so method's vary state to state. In
Indiana we are lucky in that Senator Lugar has taken it very seriously. A
college student who was about to enter the military was the volunteer who
came out and recorded Dad's story and photos now and then with him. ALL of
the histories are to be entered into the Library of Congress. I would urge
all of you to contact your Senator's office to help insure that your stories
survive.
Heidi Girman (daughter of Gene Girman)
PS: Dad is at Lakeside VA in Chicago for at least the next week or so
learning to use his new leg. With his various medical problems it hasn't been
easy but he's a trooper and working very hard.
--part1_3c.22ab50b9.2a8d6add_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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I'm writing in response to Mary Jo Hargartner. I understand how difficult it can be to get information from your Dad. Mine is the same way. (You guys who know him won't believe it, but is true.) I've learned his story over the years primarily in a secondhand fashion he'll talk to others much easier than his own kids. I urge you to find someone to record you Dad's story. One of state university's history dept. sent some to interview Dad (my sister-in-law sat back in a corner a video taped it) and he gave them the letters that he sent home and vise versa and they are now part of the archives. Also, Congress passed a resolution to record the personal histories of as many vets of 20th century conflicts as possible. It's the responsibility of each state's senators to see that it's done so method's vary state to state. In Indiana we are lucky in that Senator Lugar has taken it very seriously. A college student who was about to enter the military was the volunteer who came out and recorded Dad's story and photos now and then with him. ALL of the histories are to be entered into the Library of Congress. I would urge all of you to contact your Senator's office to help insure that your stories survive.
Heidi Girman (daughter of Gene Girman)
PS: Dad is at Lakeside VA in Chicago for at least the next week or so learning to use his new leg. With his various medical problems it hasn't been easy but he's a trooper and working very hard.
--part1_3c.22ab50b9.2a8d6add_boundary--
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 16 00:38:39 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian D. O'Neill)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:38:39 -0400
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #670 - 7 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020815160110.C593253668@pairlist.net>
Message-ID:
Well, I have to weigh in on Mary Jo Hangartner's questions about the modern
"Memphis Belle" movie, other B-17 movies and "the way it was" generally.
Based on the research I did for "Half a Wing," focusing on Bob Hullar's crew
in mid 1943 early 1944, there is NOTHING about the modern Memphis Belle
movie that is remotely accurate, either factually or as a reflection of the
mentality of B-17 crewmen in the Big One. In fact, I read somewhere that
the producers weren't even trying to reflect the spirit of the time in their
characters, because it wouldn't be "relevant" to a modern youthful audience.
Instead, they were looking for "Top Gun" Tom Cruise type thrills and chills
in period costume!! Merlin Miller, the Hullar Crew's tail gunner, confirmed
this to me when he said the movie's characters seemed to him like modern
kids too. It's amazing that all that time and money was wasted on an effort
that didn't even TRY to be accurate. The film is so bad it should never
have been released.
It's been ages since I've seen "The War Lover." The McQueen character was a
jackass, but at least the movie tried to tell the story of a single crew
while seeking, with much less success, to ask some "what's it all about"
questions about why people fight wars. Some of The War Lover's special
effects were cheesy, but modern Memphis Belle's special effects are equally
"fake" looking. If you can find it, try John Hersey's book The War Lover,
which is better than the movie.
I always thought of "Command Decision" as just a Clark Gable vehicle, and it
never really did much for me. A bit too antiseptic. Who cares how tough
"Tooey" Spaatz and his ilk had it.
Twelve O'Clock High remains the best B-17 movie, if only because of the Dear
Jagger character and that unforgettable beginning, and I do think it's a
pretty fair study of combat leadership. But it remains unsatisfying because
so little of it takes place in the air.
In short, 57 years after it ended, there still isn't a definitive movie
about the 8AF war, and I doubt there ever will be. The only thing I think
would do the subject justice would be in a mini-series like the HBO "Band of
Brothers" production, and I'm not holding my breath. Too bad.
Brian O'Neill
-----Original Message-----
From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com
[mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of
303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:01 PM
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #670 - 7 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: RE: Wyler film footage (Kevin Pearson)
2. New member (Jack Parker)
3. Re: New member (IBSPEC@aol.com)
4. Re: Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses (Brian McGuire)
5. RE: Wylers and movies (Mike McClanahan)
6. Re: Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses (William Heller)
7. Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle" (Mary Jo Hangartner)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Pearson
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: Wyler film footage
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Mike, that is another very facinating fact I did not
know. Thanks for contributing. I have also heard
Wylder made 20 versions of Memphis Belle before he was
finally satisfied with the final version.
Cheers
Kevin
--- Mike McClanahan wrote:
> While Kevin is certainly right that the Hollywood
> types weren't too
> fussy about cutting scenes and aircraft out of
> context into their
> "documentaries," let me insert a comment to the
> discussion, if I may.
>
> Don't know how many times I've watched Wm. Wyler's
> "Memphis Belle," but
> it's a bunch (I could only stand to watch his
> daughter Susan's version
> twice without yelling back at the screen). And
> every time I saw it, I
> smugly said to myself "Look at those QE's and XM's.
> They're not even
> from the 91st !"
>
> True enough, but had I dug a little deeper, I would
> have learned that QE
> & XM are from the 331st and 332nd Squads of the 94th
> and that in May of
> '43, the 94th was sharing bases with the 91st at
> Bassingbourn and the
> 306th at Thurleigh while they waited for their own
> base at Rougham to be
> ready for them. So the footage showing them taking
> off with the Belle
> is accurate!
>
> When you have gasbags like Andy Rooney and
> plagiarists like some
> "authorities" who have worked their way into
> positions of honor at our
> most sacred museums, it's easy (and often accurate)
> to tar and feather
> the PR flacks working for Hollywood and the War
> Department during the
> war. But sometimes there are actually little gems
> of trivia to be
> learned from what seem to be errors.
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "Jack Parker"
To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:07:32 -0500
Subject: [303rd-Talk] New member
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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This is to inform all members that my dad, Jack Parker is now on the =
chat line. He's new to computers so it may take a while for him to =
respond.My name is J.D. Parker and my address is j.d.parker@juno.com. =
Dad was in the 359th from May to Nov. '44. He was Co-pilot with William =
Morgan's group until he got his own plane. His picture is on your site =
and he was the pilot of the Bonnie B when it received the damage shown =
in the picture. Dad's health is failing ( He's 80 ) but we will try to =
get him to share as much of his experiences as possible. Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is to inform all members that my =
dad, Jack=20
Parker is now on the chat line. He's new to computers so it may take a =
while for=20
him to respond.My name is J.D. Parker and my address is j.d.parker@juno.com. Dad was in =
the 359th=20
from May to Nov. '44. He was Co-pilot with William Morgan's group until =
he got=20
his own plane. His picture is on your site and he was the pilot of the =
Bonnie B=20
when it received the damage shown in the picture. Dad's health is =
failing ( He's=20
80 ) but we will try to get him to share as much of his experiences as =
possible.=20
Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24382.C96E1740--
--__--__--
Message: 3
From: IBSPEC@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:32:56 EDT
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] New member
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
welcome jack parker . jump in tell us all about it
--__--__--
Message: 4
From: "Brian McGuire"
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:17:31 -0500
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout scene, where they
use a model and toy parachute and it looked so fake you couldn't help but to
laugh. Even the end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked so
fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would be interested in what
others may think of the rest of the movie.
Brian S. McGuire
>From: Bob Hand
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
>
>I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch the
antics of
>McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob Wagner
and his
>sweetie...there was one of these characters on every base. He
cuts in on the
>dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all evening
wining and
>dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just
couldn't help
>myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share
and print your photos: Click Here
--__--__--
Message: 5
From: "Mike McClanahan"
To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:28:56 -0600
Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Wylers and movies
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
For some reason I keep referring to Wm Wyler's daughter as Susan, when
her name is Catherine, as Kevin correctly stated in his message. Must
be some sort of Phreudian thing.
Re the '43 Memphis Belle and The War Lover, I was able to check both out
from the Denver Public Library with my library card (saved a few bucks).
I'm gonna try Combat America and Command Decision next time I'm there.
Sometimes larger libraries are a good source for hard-to-find movies.
Mike McClanahan
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:20:59 -0700
From: William Heller
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC
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x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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The movie was a total joke, Brian. A vehicle for McQueen who
had not just made it yet. And, an opportunity to use some of
the "morgue" shots that those Motion Picture Units had after
working at our Air Bases. Some say 12 O'clock High was
about as original as you can get. Especially the Dean Jagger
scene at the beginning and end. I agree with that. But for
me, BEING there was as actual as you can get and yet, today,
there are those who just do not want to hear us tell it like
it was .... The other day a local young lady saw my 8th AF
Bolo Tie and asked me what it represented. When I told her
it was from the famous 8th AF of WW#2, she asked me WHEN was
WW#2! As I began to tell her, I stopped and asked, "What
do you do for a living?" She said she was an elementary
school teacher! It is to be sad.
Cheers!
Brian McGuire wrote:
>
>
> One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout
> scene, where they use a model and toy parachute and it
> looked so fake you couldn't help but to laugh. Even the
> end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked
> so fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would
> be interested in what others may think of the rest of the
> movie.
>
> Brian S. McGuire>From: Bob Hand
> >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony
> Phortresses
> >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
> >
> >I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch
> the antics of
> >McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob
> Wagner and his
> >sweetie...there was one of these characters on every
> base. He cuts in on the
> >dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all
> evening wining and
> >dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just
> couldn't help
> >myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
> >
> >
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your
> photos: Click Here
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The movie was a total joke, Brian. A vehicle for McQueen who had not just
made it yet. And, an opportunity to use some of the "morgue" shots that
those Motion Picture Units had after working at our Air Bases. Some
say 12 O'clock High was about as original as you can get. Especially the
Dean Jagger scene at the beginning and end. I agree with that. But
for me, BEING there was as actual as you can get and yet, today, there
are those who just do not want to hear us tell it like it was ....
The other day a local young lady saw my 8th AF Bolo Tie and asked me what
it represented. When I told her it was from the famous 8th AF of WW#2,
she asked me WHEN was WW#2! As I began to tell her, I stopped
and asked, "What do you do for a living?" She said she was an
elementary
school teacher! It is to be sad.
Cheers!
Brian McGuire wrote:
One thing that ruined the film for me was the bailout scene, where they
use a model and toy parachute and it looked so fake you couldn't help but
to laugh. Even the end scene where McQueen meets the cliffs of Dover looked
so fake you had to wonder how low their budget was. Would be interested
in what others may think of the rest of the movie.
Brian S.
McGuire>From:
Bob Hand
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>
>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle and Phony Phortresses
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:39:00 -0400
>
>I must dig up "War Lover" from my philes and again watch the antics
of
>McQueen as he infiltrates the relationship between Bob Wagner and
his
>sweetie...there was one of these characters on every base. He cuts
in on the
>dance floor and off goes the date you've spent all evening wining
and
>dining. (She calls you the next day and explains, "I just couldn't
help
>myself!"....yeah, sure.) Sound familiar? Cheers, Bob Hand
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click
Here
--------------60E1DCC90517B313AD5A28FC--
--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:13:52 +0000
From: "Mary Jo Hangartner"
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
I am the daughter of a member of the 8th Air Force (James M. Pierce), who
had to bail out of his B-17 on his 11th mission, and who was at Molesworth
from May 27, 1944 to October 6, 1944. I am also an 8th grade Language Arts
teacher who teaches an extensive WWII literature unit. I would just like to
say that it was not until the Hollywood version of the movie that my dad
even began to talk about his war experiences, and he still is quite guarded
about what he will share with his family. I have often asked him if he
would speak to my students, and he refuses, partly because that just is not
his style, and partly because of the questions that the 8th grade boys will
ask.
I use the Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle" in my classroom after we have
also read the play "The Diary of Anne Frank." Then we have a boy's and a
girl's perspective, two different countries and two very different
situations, but both of young people and how they were affected by WWII. I
also have available "Suicide Missions, Ball Turret Gunners" which I bought
for Dad as he does not have cable to watch it. Am I giving my students a
terribly inaccurate picture by using these Hollywood versions of movies? My
thoughts are that at least I am getting them interested and asking questions
about that point in history.
Dad has also pointed out many things about the Hollywood "Memphis Belle"
which were not accurate at all.
In the end, my students are asked to find someone else's story, someone who
was also between the ages of 10 and 25 during the war, anywhere in the
world, and then they write and tell the class the story that they have
found. They can use true accounts in books, interview someone in person, or
correspond with someone via email. I will retell them my dad's story, as
best I know it, as an example. Every year there are a handful of students,
mostly boys, who comment that this is "the best" thing that we have done in
this class. Others have commented that my class is more like Social Studies
than Language Arts ; I also consider that a compliment as I tend to enjoy
true stories even more than the fictional ones.
Just wanted to let you know that I am doing my best to generate interest in
what these men did out of appreciation to all of you and Dad, but at the
same time hope that I am not over-glamorizing war. The kids have brought in
some interesting speakers on their own, as well as audio and videotapes to
accompany their written stories.
--__--__--
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End of 303rd-Talk Digest
From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 16 00:52:10 2002
From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:52:10 EDT
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hollywood version of "Memphis Belle"
Message-ID: <83.1f33a0e6.2a8d98aa@aol.com>
Mary Jo,
If you are serious about wantin