From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 01:44:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:44:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Visit of the royal family Message-ID: <000c01c1d91e$bf13b2b0$0000a398@SHANK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1D8F4.D4F96AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Co-pilot and I were returning to the 359th area from the equipment = shack on July 6, 1944 when we observed 3 Rolls Royce's coming along the = road. Suspecting that this was not an ordinary occurrence, we drew = ourselves up and delivered very crisp hand salutes. The first vehicle = contained the royal family and the other two vehicles carried an = assortment of Generals and Air Marshals. We received nods of recognition = from the King and Queen. It was a rather impressive sight. Herb Shanker ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1D8F4.D4F96AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My Co-pilot and I were returning to the = 359th area=20 from the equipment shack on July 6, 1944 when we observed 3 Rolls = Royce's coming=20 along the road. Suspecting that this was not an ordinary occurrence, we = drew=20 ourselves up and delivered very crisp hand salutes. The first vehicle = contained=20 the royal family and the other two vehicles carried an assortment of = Generals=20 and Air Marshals. We received nods of recognition from the King and = Queen.=20 It was a rather impressive sight. Herb = Shanker

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1D8F4.D4F96AE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 03:47:38 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:47:38 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] British rations. Message-ID: <112.f2517ae.29d9325a@aol.com> Maurice I didn't arrive at station until endof Nov 44 sothe raions must have well estblished by then. However, the experience with British rations was given us on 24 Dec 44, when we had to land at british base in western England. We were not totally expected and after a long mission we were hungry and what we were served was TEA, canned baked beans, with some bangers and some pretty tough slices of bread. Luckily, the next day USAAF trucks arrived with turkey dinner rations. LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 15:39:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:39:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] British Rations. Message-ID: <000501c1d993$7bd41100$25bb9ace@mjpmtman> LeRoy C.- Yes "44 would be too late for British Rations--wasn't more than 9 months, I'm sure. That would be till about June of '43 at the latest that we started to get US food. Sounds about right. I believe we actually ate better on British rations that the British did. I heard that the normal breakfast consisted of 3-4 slices of beet root, a slice of fried tomato , a slice of bacon and tea. How true this is I don't know. The story turned up after a Lancaster crew dropped in one night and the crew ate breakfast out mess hall. Think the pilots [flight sgts] were fed in the officer's mess. Mr. Gobrecht do you have a mention of British rations in your "memory bank". ----Maurice J.Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 14:36:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:36:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Getting home without aregular pilot In-Reply-To: <3CA56BFB.8D17E158@attglobal.net> Message-ID: on 3/30/02 2:40 AM, William Heller at wheller@attglobal.net wrote: > RC ... > > Reur message from Jack Rencher mentioning that "someone" might have taken > "artistic license" anent the training of another crew member to land the B17 > ... > It must be remembered that I did have a lot of opportunities to do this with > my > F/E because I did so much training, check and other instruction piloting while > at Molesworth. It was on these occasions that I taught Bill Huston to land the > plane. It was ONLY to land it. Totally b y rote, as it were. It must be > remembered that to pilot a plane is ONE thing but to sit there and think the > entire operation through from takeoff to landing is another matter. That is > why > they call airline pilots who are in charge, the captain. BUT, as I have said, > far too many are still only pilots. > A side note from a visit to Molesworth this past Thursday. What an experience! Was picked up from a flight from Amsterdam by Robin Beeby ( an 80-mile hop) and thence to a delightful pub dinner...enjoyed by wives and all. Next AM proceeded to the JAC installation for an unexpected ceremony of achievement during which I longed for the presence of my deserving Fink's Crew members...so many staff and spouses to explain the workings of JAC and its importance in today's critical world situation, but all with confidence and determination. Next a trip to the American Cemetery, hard to describe its incredible design or the deep feeling of gratitude for the fallen. Many thanks due to Robin Beeby and the JAC staff for arranging all this...a great experience! Also met up with Bill Adams and Keith Hill...special treat! Bus tour followed (not a JAC function) on a round-robin of England, Wales and Scotland along with a great group of vacationers from Australia to Hawaii Weather perfect for some reason...how lucky can you get!! The ghostly big triangle-C rudders and echoes of engine noises still linger. Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 16:16:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:16:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D-DAY Message-ID: <000701c1d998$95db05e0$28bb9ace@mjpmtman> Just prior to D-Day the supply went on 24 hour duty --Think for about a week??? [The fuel section was always on 24 hour duty.] I understand that our group went out that morning and as soon as they 'dumped" their load returned for fuel and bombs. Each single trip being referred to as a "sortie'" How many days did this continue?? Trying to recall for my son just what I did do over there. He seems to think it is important.---Maurice J. Paulk Air Corps Supply. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 19:24:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:24:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller Message-ID: Thanks, Bill, for describing why you couldn't go back to Molesworth. I'm no psychologist, but perhaps you were avoiding confronting some of your wartime memories. I watched 12 O'Clock High again yesterday, and the scene with Dean Jagger standing on the hardstand, flashing back in time, is my favorite from the entire movie. It's interesting, and I never thought about it until we started chatting about this, but I've met hundreds of 8th AF guys who have returned to their old bases, but not one ever described how they felt about it. You guys really are the best. I love the debate about the best damn pilot! I just hope when I reach your age I have just a couple of stories to tell my grandkids. I'm sure nothing will compare with your unusual attitudes in a DC-10, however!! Bill, I do appreciate all of your comments. I have spent the better part of my life trying to understand the war and what you guys did. Wish I knew why I had such a facination with that time in history. I've spent a small fortune learning about it and countless hours reading and writing about it. But how can a guy my age ever understand an event through which he himself did not live? I do think I have come pretty close to my goal. Thanks again for all your comments! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To Bill Heller >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:19:55 -0800 > >KP ... > > Anent your query, please believe me when I tell you I do NOT know WHY I >could >not return to Molesworth. And the strange part of this is that after the >war >(the one we won) there was not six months go by that I was not in the UK >right >up until my last trip circa 1988 or thereabouts. And sometimes I was >there >for days and weeks at a time, and also, one time my wife and I spent 50 >days >there, while we put the kids in a Nursing Home in Sussex Square and toured >the >entire UK by motor car (except Molesworth). > >Due to my work I was in England LOTS of times between the end of the war >and >the present time. When I used to fly over Molesworth when it was there, I >requested permission from the British ATC to circle the area and show my >passengers along with an explanation of why I was showing it to them. >Believe >me, the British ATC was HAPPY to let me go off airways to do this. They >thought >it GREAT! > >Also my work in Aviation v.v. the airlines, to include Conferences at the >Palais de Chaillot in Paris as a delegate to ICAO Conferences, etc., and >other >work with IATA and IFALPA ... I was in England LOTS of times. Also, as >Chief >Pilot of the European Division of my airline, while living in Rome, I used >to >do my pilot checking at London Heathrow Airport. We also had a maintenance >base >there in consort with BOAC, which is now British Airways. > >I did feint toward Molesworth, as mentioned, and alomost got there. BUT, >having >given thought to the times I was there ... the fact that my late brother >was >there with me and the memories of so many fine men, to you, I MUST admit >that I >DO NOT KNOW WHY, but it occurred, nevertheless. By nature, I am not a very >compassionate man (except for my wife and family) but there is SOMETHING >there >which would NOT allow me to go back. > >If none of this makes sense to you, I will understand. But, if you ever saw >12 >O'Clock High and the scene with Dean Jagger bicycling out to the abandoned >Base, and then the segue into the present time of the war years ... it MAY >give >you some insight into what I am telling you. THAT scene almost broke me >down >entirely. Until you have seen men, with whom you had breakfast, blown to >smithereens off your wingtip, or be hit very badly with fighter attacks, >and >not survive, perhaps THAT may assist in your thinking of my situation. > >Also, coming back to a 20-man barracks, after a mission, to 16 EMPTY BEDS >might >aid a bit in the understanding. > >My memories of Molesworth and the gallant Officers and Men I knew ... were >happy ones if you consider you can be happy in such times of war. But, they >were, and I felt I did not want to change that. > >Perhaps now, that there is no more visible Molesworth as we knew it ... I >could >return. Not certain. > >Cheers! > >WCH > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Bill: I asked you about this before, why you never went back to > > Molesworth, but I didn't get a response. I really would like to know >why > > you couldn't go back. You can chew my hide and call me names, but why, >why > > couldn't you go back. Was it bad memories, memories of lost friends. >Were > > you afraid of something. Or did you just not have the time? Many >veterans > > have gone back to their bases, but I have not heard any of them describe >how > > they felt about it. If you don't want to discuss it, just don't reply. >But > > I, and I am sure others my age, are curious. > > > > Yes, those English breakfasts are the best. Sausage, eggs, baked >mushroom > > and tomatos. But the coffee and the coffee presses, I can't drink >coffee > > now unles it is "pressed." I love all the Little Chefs in England with > > thousands of those little presses lined up on a wall! > > Thanks, Bill! > > Kevin > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Food Rationing > > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 > > > > > >RC & TC, MBE ... > > > > > >Ray, how I wish we could take your most hospitable offer. Maybe one >day. It > > >is > > >not in the immediate future, though. And yet England is our great love. >We > > >have > > >spent MUCH time there. You may not be aware, but after the war (the one >we > > >won) > > >I had been in England almost constantly. When we lived in Rome as Chief > > >Pilot > > >of the European Division of PAL, Ruth used to run up to London at the >drop > > >of a > > >hat merely to shop. And we both LOVED the theatre and attended as many > > >times as > > >possible. Then, when I was with Lufthansa, I used to get to London very > > >often. > > >And back with PAL, I used to conduct my check rides at Heathrow and >stayed > > >between flights there as new pilots came up for their checkrides. Also >had > > >a > > >Viscount checkout at Wisley, by my good friend, the late Dickie Reimer >who > > >was > > >killed in that BAC 111 crash while on a test hop. > > > > > >And then, of course, with TIA and TA we had a main base in London. > > > > > >But, you know what? NEVER in all that time did I get to Molesworth. >Feinted > > >toward it a few times, but had to turn back. Once made a cabby very >angry > > >when > > >he picked me up at the Bedford Rail Station and we were on our way and >then > > >.... I told him to turn back. He left me at a little Pub we used to >like. I > > >tipped him well due to the failure of the whole trip, but he was still > > >angry > > >with me. > > > > > >You made me HUNGRY with your description of a menu in your Email!!!! >There > > >is > > >nothing like a proper English breakfast! > > > > > >Who knows? We may be that way one day, God and Mother Nature willing. >We > > >will > > >certainly let you know if such obtains. > > > > > >We send our love. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >WCH > > > > > >"ray.cossey1" wrote: > > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > > > If you like English breakfasts so much why don't you both come over > > >here. > > > > Theresa's brother is a butcher and makes the best damned sausages in > > >Europe > > > > (if not the world). They are almost pure meat, except for the >necessary > > > > oatmeal to bind them together. We have the freshest eggs you ever >tasted > > >and > > > > as for the scones we can get them, still warm, from the nearby >bakery! > > >So > > > > there's the offer, my friend. All you have to do is jump on the >plane > > >and > > > > your English breakfast awaits! > > > > > > > > Warmest regards > > > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > > > > > > > PS The same offer is extended to any of you who are willing to make >the > > >air > > > > trip to the 'old country'. September 11th has decimated our American > > >tourist > > > > trade, so we urgently need you over here and to convert your dollars > > >into > > > > pounds sterling! |Thank goodness we are having no truck with the >'euro > > > > dollar' and are staying with the good old, reliable pound, with our > > >Queen's > > > > image on it!!! > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 18:19:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:19:23 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <45.153eaad5.29d9feab@aol.com> jack and chris. is it in libraries? how many pages? is reproducable via our site for all missing it? thanks for replies. spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 20:54:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:54:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ADMIN NOTE - Do not reply Message-ID: <3CA866B1.8435.F8FFE@localhost> Gang, We have recently changed the default "reply to" on the list back to the list. This means if you read a message and hit the "reply" button, your message will be sent back to the list. You might have indended your reply to go directly to the sender of the message and not the entire 200+ members of the list. The bottom line is, "please make sure you know where your message is going before you send it." Thanks! Please do not reply to this message. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 1 20:49:59 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:49:59 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Quick Question Message-ID: Yesterday I watched again the movie The War Lover. It's the first time I noticed this, but The Body lost the #1 engine at the IP. Question: Could a loaded Fort keep up with the rest of the Group with one engine out? (Must have been the skill and daring of Steve McQueen, huh?) Thanks! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 2 00:45:21 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:45:21 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] HM Queen Elizabeth - The Queen Mother References: <002501c1d821$953f2b70$c024fd3e@RAY> Message-ID: <007301c1d9df$abb3b460$3a2664d8@computer> I notice that it was mentioned that the Royal Family visited Molesworth in 1944. They also visited in June or July of 1943. I can't remember exactly. I remember the occasion well. We were instructed to wear Class A uniforms and were marched to an area in front of a hangar. The family trooped with the King and Queen in front, Elizabeth behind her father and Margaret next to her, behind her mother. What I remember so vividly was their composure. They seemed to be a very happy family. Princess Elizabeth was the quietestest of the group, looking straight ahead and occasionally pinching her sister's arm to stop her skipping and winking at us. It was quite an experience. There was a short talk by Col Marion, our CO welcoming them and the occasion was over. Ed Lamme, Bombardier 427 Sq From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 2 07:18:31 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:18:31 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Quick Question Message-ID: Kevin, Yes, you could keep up on three engines from the IP to Bombs away. We did not climb during this period and held a constant 150 MPH for the Bombardier. You could probably do it with 2300 RPMs and 36 inches as I remember but you could go to 2400 and 42 inches if you had to. That was a 5 minute only power setting, but you could cheat a few minutes if you were not too high. If you were close to 30,000 feet you would probably over speed your turbos which was dangerous and we had no way to know their speed. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 2 17:38:16 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:38:16 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Quick Question Message-ID: Interesting, Jack, and thanks for your comments. I thought Hollywood was at it again! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Quick Question >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:18:31 EST > >Kevin, > Yes, you could keep up on three engines from the IP to Bombs away. >We >did not climb during this period and held a constant 150 MPH for the >Bombardier. You could probably do it with 2300 RPMs and 36 inches as I >remember but you could go to 2400 and 42 inches if you had to. That was a 5 >minute only power setting, but you could cheat a few minutes if you were >not >too high. If you were close to 30,000 feet you would probably over speed >your turbos which was dangerous and we had no way to know their speed. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 00:22:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JOHN W FORD) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:22:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BRANSON REUNION Message-ID: <001101c1daa5$9f93b100$87bd530c@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1DA73.53E511E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TO ALL 303RD MEMBERS IF YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED YOUR REGISTRATION PACKET FOR THE BRANSON = REUNION, YOU CAN HAVE ONE MAILED TO YOU BY CALLING THIS TOLL FREE NUMBER = 1-888-714-4020. JOHN FORD ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1DA73.53E511E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

TO ALL 303RD MEMBERS

IF YOU HAVE NOT = RECEIVED YOUR=20 REGISTRATION PACKET FOR THE BRANSON REUNION, YOU CAN HAVE ONE MAILED TO = YOU BY=20 CALLING THIS TOLL FREE NUMBER 1-888-714-4020.

JOHN FORD

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1DA73.53E511E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 00:47:01 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:47:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BRANSON REUNION In-Reply-To: <001101c1daa5$9f93b100$87bd530c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3CA9EE95.29146.FCA05E@localhost> > TO ALL 303RD MEMBERS > > IF YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED YOUR REGISTRATION PACKET FOR THE > BRANSON REUNION, YOU CAN HAVE ONE MAILED TO YOU BY CALLING > THIS TOLL FREE NUMBER 1-888-714-4020. > > JOHN FORD > You can also download and print a copy (in Adobe Acrobat Reader format) here: http://www.303rdbga.com/branson2.pdf It's a big file, so it will download slow. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 01:48:18 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:48:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1DA87.B7CBA020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Were all four engines on the B-17 turning clock-wise? Or, counter clock-wise? Or were they opposed? At take-off, how much ( if any) opposing rudder would have to be applied in order to keep �her� straight down the runway? If contrary rudder inputs were reguired, did both pilots have to peddle the rudder to counteract the torque? Thank you all, for any �edification� you can provide on this subject.* *( �Edify� : to instruct , or improve; ) Lloyd Grant :-) Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1DA87.B7CBA020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Were all four engines on = the B-17 turning clock-wise? Or, = counter clock-wise? Or were they opposed? At take-off, how = much ( if any) opposing rudder would have to be applied in order to keep = “her” straight down the runway? = If contrary rudder inputs were reguired, did both pilots have to peddle the = rudder to counteract the torque?

Thank you all, for any = “edification” you can provide on this subject.*

*( = “Edify” : to instruct , or improve; )

Lloyd Grant = J

Lakeland, = Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1DA87.B7CBA020-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 02:39:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 18:39:50 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off References: Message-ID: <3CAA6B76.69AF6D63@attglobal.net> --------------71C2854196099F488A8E70D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LG ... There is a switch in every GOOD pilot's ass. One in each cheek. If the right cheek slides back the very least little bit ... the LEFT foot hits the rudder immediately. The same is for the left cheek of the ass. This is merely normal reaction of a GOOD pilot. He needs NOT to think about it. Only good pilots know this. The rest are wannabees. You care NOT how much or why you must use such to maintain a straight course on the runway (or in the air) should the situation demand it. You just DO it! It is not a technological situation about which a GOOD pilot is concerned. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J H Grant wrote: > Were all four engines on the B-17 turning clock-wise?Or, counter > clock-wise?Or were they opposed?At take-off, how much ( if any) > opposing rudder would have to be applied in order to keep �her� > straight down the runway?If contrary rudder inputs were reguired, did > both pilots have to peddle the rudder to counteract the torque? > > Thank you all, for any �edification� you can provide on this subject.* > > *( �Edify� : to instruct , or improve; ) > > Lloyd Grant J > > Lakeland, Fl. > --------------71C2854196099F488A8E70D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LG ...

There is a switch in every GOOD pilot's ass. One in each cheek. If the right cheek slides back the very least little bit ... the LEFT foot hits the rudder immediately. The same is for the left cheek of the ass. This is merely normal reaction of a GOOD pilot. He needs NOT to think about it.

Only good pilots know this. The rest are wannabees.

You care NOT how much or why you must use such to maintain a straight course on the runway (or in the air) should the situation demand it. You just DO it! It is not a technological situation about which a GOOD pilot is concerned.

Cheers!

WCH

Lloyd J H Grant wrote:

Were all four engines on the B-17 turning clock-wise?Or, counter clock-wise?Or were they opposed?At take-off, how much ( if any) opposing rudder would have to be applied in order to keep �her� straight down the runway?If contrary rudder inputs were reguired, did both pilots have to peddle the rudder to counteract the torque?

Thank you all, for any �edification� you can provide on this subject.*

*( �Edify� : to instruct , or improve; )

Lloyd Grant J

Lakeland, Fl.

--------------71C2854196099F488A8E70D6-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 03:33:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:33:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off Message-ID: <176.61da8c8.29dbd218@aol.com> Lloyd, For every force there is a counter force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. If you set 10 pounds of mashed Idaho potatoes (the best kind) on a table the table must push up with a counter 10 pounds of force. If the table is not strong enough to push up 10 pounds it breaks and then the floor must be strong enough to push up 10 pounds. if it isn't you've got 10 pounds of potatoes on the ground under the house. When an engine turns the propeller clock wise (from the pilots perspective sitting behind it) The counter force would tend to turn the airplane counter clockwise (most English engines would be just the opposite) This is referred to as torque among you flyboys. You can't hold it with alienors as they have no force until they are moving and even then the left aileron going down would increase the angle of attack and hence lower the stalling speed of the left wing causing it to stall and have no lift at all right when it was needed most. So on a small single engine plane with a big powerful engine like a P51 when you apply power to the propeller turning it to the right it would turn the airplane to the left. This would throw most or all the weight on the left landing gear causing the left wing to go down hence turning the bird to the left. When you apply right rudder it throws the left wing forward a bit increasing the lift thereon and holding the bird straight down the runway. On a big 4 engine airplane like a B17 the engines are far enough away from the center line and two are outboard of the landing gear, effects of torque are not so noticeable. You don't need a lot of rudder to counter it. Most 4 engine pilots do it with the outboard throttles and don't even realize it. One pilot can do it without any problem. All the Wright 1820-97 and the older -65s turned the same way Good night Lloyd, Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 03:49:57 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Theresa Cantrell) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:49:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Holy Mackerel Message-ID: <001b01c1dac2$a0feac80$7191ed0c@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1DA90.5490DC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anybody out there know of any body who knew Ercil F Eyster 359th = BS. B17F Holy Mackerel #41-24609 (BN-Q). He was a 1st Lt. His plane = was shot down on April 4th 1943 over Rouen France they were on their #28 = mission to Paris. I am also looking for any pictures that are not = already on the website of the Holy Mackerel. Thanks, Theresa Cantrell theresa.cantrell@attbi.com ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1DA90.5490DC10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anybody out there know of any body = who knew=20 Ercil F Eyster 359th BS. B17F Holy Mackerel #41-24609 (BN-Q). He = was a 1st=20 Lt. His plane was shot down on April 4th 1943 over Rouen France = they were=20 on their #28 mission to Paris. I am also looking for any = pictures=20 that are not already on the website of the Holy Mackerel.

Thanks,

Theresa Cantrell

theresa.cantrell@attbi.com=

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1DA90.5490DC10-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 04:02:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:02:52 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: D-DAY Message-ID: <002901c1dac4$6e4bef80$2dbb9ace@mjpmtman> S/sgt Fred H Gruenberg was in charge of the fuel dump AND refueling the "birds". Following is the answer I received from my inquiry. I have never seen it posted on the forum ---Thought it might be interesting.. He was a good friend then and we still keep in contact. Liked to visit him in the "fuel shack" Played knock poker into the wee hours. Besides he always had bread, peanut butter and jelly. We toasted the bread at the open ash door at the bottom of the coke stove. Still like burnt toast!!. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: Theresa Gruenberg To: Maurice Paulk Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:16 PM Subject: Re: D-DAY Maurice -In reply to your request for information regarding the fueling of the B-l7 bombers when the second front was opened we did work around 24 hours a day for at least 10 days. I personally worked for 72 hours straight without any sleep. The English couldn:'t keep up with required fuel and we had to transport fuel with our own trucks for at least 6, or seven days to keep the birds in the air. As always,----- Fred H. Gruenberg> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 04:08:43 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:08:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off In-Reply-To: <3CAA6B76.69AF6D63@attglobal.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1DA9B.55D39440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Heller. Thank you. I guess this one was a �wannabe� question. The point was, did all four props turn clockwise, or did the left engines turn counter to the right engines. If all the engines turned in the same direction, it seems to me that there would be a bit of torque involved that might have to be counter-acted by rudder pressure when taking the plane off. Be well, Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1DA9B.55D39440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill Heller. Thank = you.

I guess this one = was a “wannabe” question. The point was, = did all four props turn clockwise, or did the left engines turn counter to the = right engines. If all the = engines turned in the same direction, it seems to me that there would be a bit of = torque involved that might have to be counter-acted by rudder pressure when taking the = plane off. =

Be well,

Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C1DA9B.55D39440-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 07:06:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:06:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off References: Message-ID: <3CAAA9EA.F9BDC3EB@attglobal.net> --------------CC85BB0B8D9F67334FE399FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LG ... All engines (amnd props) turned the same. Cheers! Lloyd J H Grant wrote: > Bill Heller.Thank you. > > I guess this one was a �wannabe� question.The point was, did all four > props turn clockwise, or did the left engines turn counter to the > right engines.If all the engines turned in the same direction, it > seems to me that there would be a bit of torque involved that might > have to be counter-acted by rudder pressure when taking the plane off. > > Be well, > > Lloyd. > --------------CC85BB0B8D9F67334FE399FC Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LG ...

All engines (amnd props) turned the same.

Cheers!

Lloyd J H Grant wrote:

Bill Heller.Thank you.

I guess this one was a �wannabe� question.The point was, did all four props turn clockwise, or did the left engines turn counter to the right engines.If all the engines turned in the same direction, it seems to me that there would be a bit of torque involved that might have to be counter-acted by rudder pressure when taking the plane off.

Be well,

Lloyd.

--------------CC85BB0B8D9F67334FE399FC-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 18:33:37 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:33:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock Message-ID: The question about torque brings up another question I have meant to ask. Once lined up with the center line of the runway, I have heard you would lock the tail wheel. What would happen if you didn't? Would the Fort wander off the runway because of torque? And was the tail wheel locked or unlocked on landing? Thanks in advance for your comments? Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 18:45:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:45:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Message-ID: Ray Jude from the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn has done some research on how fuel was supplied to the bases. It appears there were underground fuel lines stretching from Liverpool to many of the bases. You see these yellow, plastic poles sticking out of the ground all over East Anglia and they mark where these fuel lines are buried. Upon inquiring with the British government, the location of these old lines is still confidential and they will not release any information at all. I did speak with one lady who lived out in the country between Alconbury and Kimbolton. We were taking back roads, got lost, and stopped to ask directions. She saw my A-2 and we got to talking. She had driven "petrol lorries" from Liverpool to many of the bases. One night without a moon, she was inching her way down a narrow English back road, and ran a guy on a bicycle off the road. She got out of the lorry, approached the man on the ground, and it was none other than Clark Gable!! She said she about died! Does anyone else know about how fuel was delievered to the bases? Apparently these undergound lines were used, but so were the petrol lorries. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 19:34:09 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:34:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock References: Message-ID: <3CAB5931.42EC03F8@attglobal.net> KP ... The tailwheel was locked to keep it from flopping around. It was not meant to be free at high speeds. Only for taxi speeds. A little old tailwheel would have NOTHING to do with torque, nor could it. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > The question about torque brings up another question I have meant to ask. > Once lined up with the center line of the runway, I have heard you would > lock the tail wheel. What would happen if you didn't? Would the Fort > wander off the runway because of torque? And was the tail wheel locked or > unlocked on landing? > > Thanks in advance for your comments? > Cheers! > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 20:20:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:20:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Petrol Message-ID: <000801c1db4d$043484c0$5abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1DB1A.B7E734A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin---Don't recall of Fred saying ANYTHING about a pipe line.Several = times while we were playing cards one of fuel trucks would kstop kby the = shack and pick up Fred. I'll write him and see what he says.---------------Maurice ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1DB1A.B7E734A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kevin---Don't recall of Fred saying = ANYTHING about=20 a pipe line.Several times while we were playing cards one of fuel trucks = would=20 kstop kby the shack and pick up Fred.

I'll write him and see what he=20 says.---------------Maurice

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1DB1A.B7E734A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 20:54:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:54:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #553 - 10 msgs Message-ID: <5b.259841c1.29dcc5f5@aol.com> What a great reply from Bill Heller to Lloyd Grant's question about tourque and use of the rudder during take off. In addition to a switch in good Pilot's ass good instructors told their student pilots to keep their heads out of their ass. Keeping your head where it belonged could have avoided many instances of "Pilot Error" and enabled the good combat pilot to keep his aircraft in the air and under control despite extensive battle damage and loss of engines. Good instructors also told the novice pilot to develop a good sense of instinct that could quickly be developed with practice. Lack of instinct and keeping one's head in his ass is what washed out many Cadets during pilot flight training. Fortunately most of the Mighty 8th Air Force Pilots, thanks to the excellence of their cadet instructors, pre-combat training and flight experiences and guidance from their combat leaders, knew where to keep their heads and properly and instinctively used the switch in their ass. Thanks Bill for your explanation. Harry D. Gobrecht From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 22:00:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:00:53 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Petrol Message-ID: Maurice: When I was at Molesworth, we saw these yellow plastic pipes all over, but outside of the base fence. I would imagine they are there so people don't dig and break the pipes. Another question I have for your friend or you is how was the fuel stored on base? 2,000 gallons times, say, 40 aircraft per mission, well, that is a lot of "pushaline." Were there large tanks above or below ground? I know the petrol lorries carried the gas to the planes, but it must have been stored somewhere. I've never seen this mentioned in books or anywhere else, nor have I heard it mentioned during my visits to the bases. The flat, square water towers are still left at many bases, most not used, but gasoline storage is mystery. Thanks, Maurice! Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Petrol >Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:20:33 -0600 > >Kevin---Don't recall of Fred saying ANYTHING about a pipe line.Several >times while we were playing cards one of fuel trucks would kstop kby the >shack and pick up Fred. >I'll write him and see what he says.---------------Maurice > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 23:05:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:05:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #553 - 10 msgs Message-ID: <32.24d84105.29dce4bc@aol.com> Harry you were right on but you left out the "Up And Locked" Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 3 22:58:58 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:58:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: <21.1bc77b9a.29dce332@aol.com> Lloyd & Kevin Too Maybe, When I talked to you yesterday I was very sleepy having just flown most of the night. I left out probably the most important part of torque and didn't realize it until I was in bed. Lets take any single engine American airplane like a P51. When siting in the cockpit the propeller turns to the right. That clockwise. The prop wash the propeller blows back does NOT go straight back. It goes back in a corkscrew motion because of the rotation of the propeller. The wind from the propwash hits the vertical stabilizer hard on the left side. This pushes the tail to the right which causes the nose to turn left, hence the need for right rudder. This does not effect a B17 much as the prop wash from the 4 engines does not hit the tail Now if you understand this I am going to tell you a true story. About 3 or 4 year ago I was at Falcon Field in Mesa Arizona. There was an English fighter there. I think it was a Hawker Hurricane. They were installing a 4 row radial out of a B29 in it. The original English engine turned to the left. The leading edge of the vertical stabilizer was off set about 3 or 4 inches to the right to compensate for the torque. The American engine they were installing turned the opposite direction so the offset was backwards for it. I inquired about who owned the plane and found him. He was a young playboy type about 30 years old. I asked him who was going to fly the bird. He told me he was. I told him it was none of my business but I was going to but in to save his life. I told him if he used anywhere near full power for take off the plane would be completely uncontrollable and would crack up on the right side of the runway just as soon as it left the ground. He listened but made no comment. No thank you No go to H---. Nothing. About 2 months later I was back at Falcon Field. I asked what happened to the bird. I was told he hired a woman test pilot to take it up for its first flight. She lost it before it left the ground went off the runway on the right side went through a lot of bushes and trees and totaled it out. They said she survived with only minor injuries. Now you know the rest of the story Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 01:05:32 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:05:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I made a mistake Message-ID: <12d.f383bf7.29dd00dc@aol.com> Lloyd & Kevin, I told the playboy type his bird would crack up on the left side of the runway on take off. I think I told you fellows I told him on the right side. I must be getting old and stupid. Sorry but they did clobber it. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 01:13:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:13:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock Message-ID: <106.fc9456c.29dd02a1@aol.com> Kevin Some planes had a tail wheel lock. As I remember I don't think a B17 had one. I flew so many different planes I have forgotten but I think It centered by itself when it was lined up but you could kick it out with rudder and brakes. I sure could be mistaken on this one. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 13:37:10 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:37:10 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel References: Message-ID: <002601c1dbdf$464e2180$af24fd3e@theresa> Kevin I am able to confirm the underground fuel distribution network still exists to this day and is used to supply all military and other sensitive installations. This information was imparted by a speaker at a lecture I attended, but there are no details, within the public domain, as to precisely where these pipes are positioned. Before any excavation is implemented, below a certain depth, across rural farmland, the authorities have to be consulted so as to avoid any potential damage to the installations. Last year we had a petrol (sorry, gasoline) tankers drivers' strike and the oil depots and refineries were picketed to prevent the movement of fuel. The various elements of the military couldn't have cared less, their supplies were guaranteed! Regards Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 03:21:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:21:07 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pipe Line Message-ID: <001401c1db87$c310a380$64bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1DB55.77CE5AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin---I quote----"No petrol was piped in. It was all trucked = in."------Fred Gruenberg I have an answer coming about the amount and method of storage. Here is = his address theresag@ndak.net He is- I think - "allergic" to a computer = doesn't use it much.-----that is his wife's address.----Maurice=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1DB55.77CE5AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kevin---I quote----"No petrol was piped = in. It was=20 all trucked in."------Fred Gruenberg

I have an answer coming about the = amount and method=20 of storage. Here is his address theresag@ndak.net He is- = I think -=20 "allergic" to a computer doesn't use it much.-----that is his wife's address.----Maurice

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1DB55.77CE5AC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 08:07:08 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:07:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock References: <106.fc9456c.29dd02a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CAC09AB.B38DA020@attglobal.net> JPR ... The B17 tail wheel had a lock ... Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin > Some planes had a tail wheel lock. As I remember I don't think a B17 > had one. I flew so many different planes I have forgotten but I think It > centered by itself when it was lined up but you could kick it out with rudder > and brakes. I sure could be mistaken on this one. > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 13:46:05 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:46:05 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque References: <21.1bc77b9a.29dce332@aol.com> Message-ID: <002701c1dbdf$47b52b90$af24fd3e@theresa> Jack R Great story about the Hawker Hurricane. Just one query....was the 'playboy type' owner an American, or an Englishman? Can't ever imagine a Brit would ignore such advice from an old fox like yourself. Having said that I do recall the time you took advice from an Englishman...which was not to drive in England, at your advanced years. Thankfully you listened to Theresa and I and you paid a young waiter, from the hotel, to chauffer you around. The rest is well known and it is possibly I who has to be thanked for saving the 303rd Association from losing one of its most individual Presidents. Yes, siree, I'm to blame! Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 17:48:50 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:48:50 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: Jack: Yesterday when you told Lloyd and me that you had to compensate for torque on an engine that spun the prop closewise by applying right rudder, I thought you had gone off the deep end. I should have known better. My only experience with torque has been with cars and heavy CAT earthmoving equipment. I never, not once even when I was flying, was told about the prop wash striking the left side of the vertical stabalizer (for clockwise turning props)necisitating right rudder. And I had no idea aircraft manufacturers offset the vertical stabalizer from centerline to compensate for this. Facinating. Thank you very much for helping two "wannabes" understand this. And that kid with the Hurricane, I can't believe he would not have listened to you. Serves 'em right! That crack up must have cost him a fortune. You guys are truly remarkable! I appreciate you following up with what you wrote yesterday! Jack, you are still flying? What do you fly and how many hours do you have? (This ought to be very humbling!!) Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque >Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:58:58 EST > > Lloyd & Kevin Too Maybe, > When I talked to you yesterday I was very sleepy having just flown >most of the night. I left out probably the most important part of torque >and >didn't realize it until I was in bed. > Lets take any single engine American airplane like a P51. When >siting >in the cockpit the propeller turns to the right. That clockwise. The prop >wash the propeller blows back does NOT go straight back. It goes back in a >corkscrew motion because of the rotation of the propeller. The wind from >the >propwash hits the vertical stabilizer hard on the left side. This pushes >the >tail to the right which causes the nose to turn left, hence the need for >right rudder. This does not effect a B17 much as the prop wash from the 4 >engines does not hit the tail Now if you understand this I am going to tell >you a true story. > > About 3 or 4 year ago I was at Falcon Field in Mesa Arizona. There >was >an English fighter there. I think it was a Hawker Hurricane. They were >installing a 4 row radial out of a B29 in it. The original English engine >turned to the left. The leading edge of the vertical stabilizer was off set >about 3 or 4 inches to the right to compensate for the torque. The American >engine they were installing turned the opposite direction so the offset was >backwards for it. I inquired about who owned the plane and found him. He >was >a young playboy type about 30 years old. I asked him who was going to fly >the >bird. He told me he was. I told him it was none of my business but I was >going to but in to save his life. I told him if he used anywhere near full >power for take off the plane would be completely uncontrollable and would >crack up on the right side of the runway just as soon as it left the >ground. >He listened but made no comment. No thank you No go to H---. Nothing. About >2 >months later I was back at Falcon Field. I asked what happened to the bird. >I >was told he hired a woman test pilot to take it up for its first flight. >She >lost it before it left the ground went off the runway on the right side >went >through a lot of bushes and trees and totaled it out. They said she >survived >with only minor injuries. Now you know the rest of the story > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 17:52:29 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:52:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock Message-ID: The reason I asked, Jack, is because in the movie The War Lover, Robert Wagoner tells Steve McQueen to lock the tail wheel before accelerating down the runway. And it seems I remember reading about this in the B-17 Pilot Training Manual. Cheers Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock >Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:13:05 EST > >Kevin > Some planes had a tail wheel lock. As I remember I don't think a >B17 >had one. I flew so many different planes I have forgotten but I think It >centered by itself when it was lined up but you could kick it out with >rudder >and brakes. I sure could be mistaken on this one. > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 18:37:45 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:37:45 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock References: <106.fc9456c.29dd02a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <000f01c1dc07$d1da21e0$bd93bbd0@cts> Jack: It had a tailwheel lock which was controlled by the Copilot If I remember rite it was on the floor. Dick "Spider" Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock > Kevin > Some planes had a tail wheel lock. As I remember I don't think a B17 > had one. I flew so many different planes I have forgotten but I think It > centered by itself when it was lined up but you could kick it out with rudder > and brakes. I sure could be mistaken on this one. > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 21:02:27 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:02:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] petrol storage Message-ID: <001a01c1dc1c$07d55120$90bb9ace@mjpmtman> Kevin --You have the rest of the story-------straight from the "horse's mouth"!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ---- Original Message ----- From: Theresa Gruenberg To: Maurice Paulk Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Storage I don't know anything about the yellow plastic pipes but all fuels were stored underground. I think we stored about a million gallons. Fred From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 21:30:19 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:30:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock References: <106.fc9456c.29dd02a1@aol.com> <000f01c1dc07$d1da21e0$bd93bbd0@cts> Message-ID: <3CACC5EA.3CCCE81F@attglobal.net> Spider ... Everything in an airplane is controlled by the first pilot (or Captain in airlines) ... But MANY things are OPERATED by others. Yes, the copilot usually OPERATED the tailwheel lock. Cheers, ol' Buddy! WCH spider wrote: > Jack: > It had a tailwheel lock which was controlled by the Copilot If I remember > rite it was on the floor. > Dick "Spider" Smith > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Wheel Lock > > > Kevin > > Some planes had a tail wheel lock. As I remember I don't think a > B17 > > had one. I flew so many different planes I have forgotten but I think It > > centered by itself when it was lined up but you could kick it out with > rudder > > and brakes. I sure could be mistaken on this one. > > Jack > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 4 23:04:44 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:04:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheel lock Message-ID: I happen to have a Geo Peterson reprint of the manual for b-17s The switch for the landing gear (also controlled the tail wheel ) this controlled up and down was positined on the control panel pedestal ahead of the mixture controls and the top row of sitches next to the landing light switchs, right hand side of panel. the tail wheel lock lever (looks like a push button on top to release a positive locking catch for the lever) was positioned to the co=pilot's side of the lower control panel under the automatic flight control panel, by the rudder control tab. The lever on the pilot's side was the elevator and rudder lock. Hope this helps with question on the net I was just a navigator but by fortune was geven this manual several years ago as a gift. LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 01:13:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:13:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: <163.b9c5bdb.29de5428@aol.com> Ray C. He was definitely am American. Falcon Field is very close to Scottsdale Arizona. It is somewhat a haven for the very wealthy. From his demeanor and the money he was spending on the Hawker I suspect his Daddy was one. Maybe he did take my advice. He did not do the first (and Only) flight himself. From what I was told he hired a professional lady pilot to do it for him. I would suspect if she had held FULL Right rudder she could not have held the plane with even half throttle with that engine. One time in Greenwood Mississippi I was taking off in a P51. I don't remember if it was a D or K model but there was very little difference other than the propeller. I was always experimenting. I tried to make a short field take off and left the tail on the ground and used full throttle. I had full right rudder on it and open the throttle just as fast as I could. When the wheels left the ground it instantly started a roll to the left. I instantly had to reduce the throttle to about half to keep the left wing tip out of the ground. As I picked up speed and got the gear up I was able to advance the throttle and climb on out. The next time you are around a high performance single engine plane look at where the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer meets the fuselage left or right of center. I owe you and your wife a great big thank you as does the Englishman and his family I would have collided with had you not talked me into hiring a native college student to drive my rented car that day. Thank you for me. Thank you for the unknown Englishman. Best wishes Ray Jack R. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 01:47:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:47:54 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: <32.24e843a0.29de5c4a@aol.com> Kevin, I have about 20,000 hours. I am quite proud of an award I got from the Idaho Department of Aeronautics It states I flew two million miles and one half century without an accident or a violation. I feel a bit guilty. It should have said I flew about 2 million miles without an accident or a violation where I got caught. I have violated probably every rule in the book except maybe exceeding the red line. I don't fly much anymore. I sold my Baron and V tailed Bonanza. a few years ago. I have a friend who flies a Baron and is not instrument rated. He asks me to go with him sometimes when the weather is IFR. I can't understand the women controllers any more but he can so we make a good team. He listens & I shot the aproaches.We've never missed the ground. Not even once. Now Kevin I didn't say runway. Best Wishes again Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 01:26:53 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:26:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: <3d.1c141775.29de575d@aol.com> Kevin, He didn't know me from an old shoe. I had been out there working on the Confederates Air Forces birds like I did often on week ends and he probably thought I was just some nut hanging around the airport. Which I was. Thanks for your nice letter. It cheered me up out of a deep depression. Read the letter I sent to Ray about vertical stabilizers. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 07:58:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 23:58:54 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque In-Reply-To: <002701c1dbdf$47b52b90$af24fd3e@theresa> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, and all. I have been to England twice, and loved it both times. On the subject of driving in England, I never tried. The traffic circles had me flummoxed. I even got hit by a car once, walking down the sidewalk. I had just lit a smoke, and was doing my regular side to side walk down the sidewalk. I forget the name of the town, but it was near to Luton. I just took a drag of my smoke, and swung my arm down when "WHAM", my hand with arm attached, swung around in a perfect round-the-clock baseball pitch. The streets are so narrow there (really converted wagon trails) that a car going by had whacked my hand with her car mirror. She stopped right away, and yelled "Sorry, mate" out of the window, but I could see there was no real damage and just waved at her. I lost my smoke, and my hand was sore for a few days, but nothing serious. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com] On Behalf Of ray.cossey1 Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:46 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque Jack R Great story about the Hawker Hurricane. Just one query....was the 'playboy type' owner an American, or an Englishman? Can't ever imagine a Brit would ignore such advice from an old fox like yourself. Having said that I do recall the time you took advice from an Englishman...which was not to drive in England, at your advanced years. Thankfully you listened to Theresa and I and you paid a young waiter, from the hotel, to chauffer you around. The rest is well known and it is possibly I who has to be thanked for saving the 303rd Association from losing one of its most individual Presidents. Yes, siree, I'm to blame! Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 08:12:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordy Alton) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:12:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque In-Reply-To: <32.24e843a0.29de5c4a@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jack, Ooops, I said that out loud again. It's 'Lo Jack, now, right. Only 20,000, huh? How in the hell did you get that many without being caught doing at least one little thing? Tell us your secret...... Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us." ************************************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com] On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:48 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque Kevin, I have about 20,000 hours. I am quite proud of an award I got from the Idaho Department of Aeronautics It states I flew two million miles and one half century without an accident or a violation. I feel a bit guilty. It should have said I flew about 2 million miles without an accident or a violation where I got caught. I have violated probably every rule in the book except maybe exceeding the red line. I don't fly much anymore. I sold my Baron and V tailed Bonanza. a few years ago. I have a friend who flies a Baron and is not instrument rated. He asks me to go with him sometimes when the weather is IFR. I can't understand the women controllers any more but he can so we make a good team. He listens & I shot the aproaches.We've never missed the ground. Not even once. Now Kevin I didn't say runway. Best Wishes again Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 14:09:30 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:09:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: <85.1998bc3f.29df0a1a@aol.com> Gordy, Luck and flying in the back country and out in the country off airways where no one was looking and during the great war when we were expendable and no body gave a hoot except the owls. Thanks for your cute letter. Lo-Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 5 17:19:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:19:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque Message-ID: Jack: A friend of mine owns a V-Tail Bonanza and we used to take aerial photographs in it. The pilot in the left seat, me in the right shooting over his shoulder. It's a tough plane to do aerial photography in, but I always managed to walk away with some good pics. As far as never missing the ground, in the great struggle between airplanes moving a several hundred miles an hour vesus the ground moving at zero miles an hour, the ground has never lost! Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:47:54 EST > >Kevin, > I have about 20,000 hours. I am quite proud of an award I got from >the >Idaho Department of Aeronautics It states I flew two million miles and one >half century without an accident or a violation. I feel a bit guilty. It >should have said I flew about 2 million miles without an accident or a >violation where I got caught. I have violated probably every rule in the >book >except maybe exceeding the red line. I don't fly much anymore. I sold my >Baron and V tailed Bonanza. a few years ago. I have a friend who flies a >Baron and is not instrument rated. He asks me to go with him sometimes >when >the weather is IFR. I can't understand the women controllers any more but >he >can so we make a good team. He listens & I shot the aproaches.We've never >missed the ground. Not even once. Now Kevin I didn't say runway. > Best Wishes again > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 04:16:17 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:16:17 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheels Message-ID: <008201c1dd21$cd7c01c0$5fe0e13f@default> In Brian O'Neill's 'Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer' there is a picture of a B-17G (page 384) with the rudder and the tailgunners compartment gone, chewed off by his wingman's prop as they got in line to land. The tailgunner, it said, wasn't in his compartment because he had gone forward to check the tailwheel only seconds before. Did the T/G always check the tailwheel or did it vary from crew to crew? Now , I guess its obvious if the tailwheel is down, but.... What tells you it is locked? If its not locked then what are the options? Could the wheel be lowered manually if it wasnt down? Thanks Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 08:49:25 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:49:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Torque & Propwash Message-ID: <80.19d2d898.29e01095@aol.com> --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy guys. Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at < www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy guys.

Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at <www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 17:33:26 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian D. O'Neill) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:33:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd Talk - Colors of The Floose? Other 303rd A/C? In-Reply-To: <20020406170206.3E2EB53EF7@pairlist.net> Message-ID: Hello all. I'm now emailing photos of B-17 A/C to the profile artist for the new Osprey 303rd illustrated history of the Group. A reminder -- 40 303rd B-17s will be profiled. One I want to do is The Floose. Anybody remember the colors of the big fat bird? Looks like either a yellow or off white? Thanks. Brian O'Neill PS - If you want YOUR airplane reproduced and have photos, let me see em please!! BON -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 12:02 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #556 - 3 msgs Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com You can reach the person managing the list at 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Torque (Kevin Pearson) 2. tail wheels (hoytwma2) 3. Re: Torque & Propwash (Fordlauer@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kevin Pearson" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:19:54 -0600 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Jack: A friend of mine owns a V-Tail Bonanza and we used to take aerial photographs in it. The pilot in the left seat, me in the right shooting over his shoulder. It's a tough plane to do aerial photography in, but I always managed to walk away with some good pics. As far as never missing the ground, in the great struggle between airplanes moving a several hundred miles an hour vesus the ground moving at zero miles an hour, the ground has never lost! Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:47:54 EST > >Kevin, > I have about 20,000 hours. I am quite proud of an award I got from >the >Idaho Department of Aeronautics It states I flew two million miles and one >half century without an accident or a violation. I feel a bit guilty. It >should have said I flew about 2 million miles without an accident or a >violation where I got caught. I have violated probably every rule in the >book >except maybe exceeding the red line. I don't fly much anymore. I sold my >Baron and V tailed Bonanza. a few years ago. I have a friend who flies a >Baron and is not instrument rated. He asks me to go with him sometimes >when >the weather is IFR. I can't understand the women controllers any more but >he >can so we make a good team. He listens & I shot the aproaches.We've never >missed the ground. Not even once. Now Kevin I didn't say runway. > Best Wishes again > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "hoytwma2" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:16:17 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheels Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com In Brian O'Neill's 'Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer' there is a picture of a B-17G (page 384) with the rudder and the tailgunners compartment gone, chewed off by his wingman's prop as they got in line to land. The tailgunner, it said, wasn't in his compartment because he had gone forward to check the tailwheel only seconds before. Did the T/G always check the tailwheel or did it vary from crew to crew? Now , I guess its obvious if the tailwheel is down, but.... What tells you it is locked? If its not locked then what are the options? Could the wheel be lowered manually if it wasnt down? Thanks Bill Hoyt --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Fordlauer@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:49:25 EST To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Torque & Propwash Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy guys. Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at < www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy guys.

Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at <www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary-- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 18:35:33 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:35:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks Message-ID: <194.4fec738.29e099f5@aol.com> I'm trying to recall a scary incident which occurred during my service in the Mighty Eighth. What I need is a recap of the facilities on a Bee One Seven for preventing the control surfaces from banging around in the wind when the ship was parked on the hardstands. As a radio operator I had little occasion to occupy the area forward of the bomb bay when parked on the ground and now after nearly 60 years remember little of what I saw up there on those occasions. However, I do seem to remember seeing a red-knobed pin with a long red streamer lettered with the words REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT protruding from the first pilot's control column. I assume that was a control lock. Was that the only locking device or were the ailerons, rudder and elevators each accommodated separately? I would appreciate it if some you former pilots and flight engineers would recount those accommodations. Best Regards, Old Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 19:33:23 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:33:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express Message-ID: <000501c1dda1$ec7be420$7bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Curiousity compelled me to search the site --2 items came up-- #1. - Emerson Shield's crew --Flew Continetal Express May 9 & 10, 1945 #2. - Reunion '99 -- Continental Air Lines!!!!! Too many ground personnel for just 2 days!!! I was In Dudley Worcestershire for May 8 and returned on May 9. Thought I waited a day or two before I went. Would some one care to comment on this???--Haven't had very good luck lately. --- Is some one out there unhappy with me??????????? ---Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 20:20:41 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:20:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express Message-ID: <000501c1dda8$86c9c960$bdbb9ace@mjpmtman> Me again the mouthy pest---We were given a lunch before take off -- In my mind I am thinking grapefruit juice was part of it. Does that make sense? Was it a canteen of water????????? Although I was sick on my first flight over the North Sea [mid '43 I think] on a formation practice flight, it never bothered me this time. In fact being warm in the nose compartment [and full of sandwichs] I was a sleep when we flew over the Rhine River Gorge. I was the first one in the nose. No rank pulling they said BUT ---I soon lost the bombardier's seat to a 2nd Lt. Did get some good pictures though. It was an awesome sight to me to see just how dad-burned close that flight pattern was--wing tip to waist window--Looked like it any way!!!! -----Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 22:27:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 16:27:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheels Message-ID: Bill: Jim Hower, 447th BG copilot, flew several missions as formation control officer in the tail for the lead ship. He too has told me that he would visually check the tail wheel before landing. The pilots obviously could not see the tail wheel, and Jim said something about a defect in the how the pilots knew the wheel was locked. Better safe than sorry. He said they always had either the waist gunners or tail gunner check it. The question might arise why didn't the ball check it. Might seem obvious, but just in case, the ball gunner was out of the ball by the time the planes were on final and the ball had to be rotated so the guns were parallel to the fuselage. Jeez, I'm preaching to the choir again...... Kevin >From: "hoytwma2" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheels >Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:16:17 -0700 > > In Brian O'Neill's 'Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer' there is a >picture of a B-17G (page 384) with the rudder and the tailgunners >compartment gone, chewed off by his wingman's prop as they got in line to >land. >The tailgunner, it said, wasn't in his compartment because he had gone >forward to check the tailwheel only seconds before. > Did the T/G always check the tailwheel or did it vary from crew to crew? >Now , I guess its obvious if the tailwheel is down, but.... > What tells you it is locked? > If its not locked then what are the options? > Could the wheel be lowered manually if it wasnt down? > >Thanks Bill Hoyt > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 22:31:13 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 16:31:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Torque & Propwash Message-ID: Ford: I, too, have heard about engines not being perfectly centered in their mounts. If memory serves me right, one model of the 109 had an engine off center and the ME 210, the miseable failure it was, also had engines off center. Not sure about any US planes. Kevin >From: Fordlauer@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Torque & Propwash >Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:49:25 EST > >Howdy guys. > >Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years >as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific >prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen >opted >that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it >was >1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I >don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was >like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed >working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, >Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge >corporation, >but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at < >www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. >Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a >manufacturing >inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a >hard >time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 22:34:54 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rose & Herb Shanker) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:34:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #556 - 3 msgs References: <20020406170206.3E2EB53EF7@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000701c1ddbb$47164830$0000a398@SHANK> Tail wheel questions. You could tell if the tail wheel was locked by observation. Picture an arm held straight out. When the strut was straight out the tail wheel was locked. If there was a bend "in the elbow" the tail wheel was not locked. On our crew, the tail wheel was checked by our ball gunner who was also the Asst. Engineer. He would double check with the crank to be absolutely sure. Herb Shanker ----- Original Message ----- From: <303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com> To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #556 - 3 msgs > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Torque (Kevin Pearson) > 2. tail wheels (hoytwma2) > 3. Re: Torque & Propwash (Fordlauer@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque > Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:19:54 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Jack: A friend of mine owns a V-Tail Bonanza and we used to take aerial > photographs in it. The pilot in the left seat, me in the right shooting > over his shoulder. It's a tough plane to do aerial photography in, but I > always managed to walk away with some good pics. > > As far as never missing the ground, in the great struggle between airplanes > moving a several hundred miles an hour vesus the ground moving at zero miles > an hour, the ground has never lost! > Cheers! > Kevin > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque > >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:47:54 EST > > > >Kevin, > > I have about 20,000 hours. I am quite proud of an award I got from > >the > >Idaho Department of Aeronautics It states I flew two million miles and one > >half century without an accident or a violation. I feel a bit guilty. It > >should have said I flew about 2 million miles without an accident or a > >violation where I got caught. I have violated probably every rule in the > >book > >except maybe exceeding the red line. I don't fly much anymore. I sold my > >Baron and V tailed Bonanza. a few years ago. I have a friend who flies a > >Baron and is not instrument rated. He asks me to go with him sometimes > >when > >the weather is IFR. I can't understand the women controllers any more but > >he > >can so we make a good team. He listens & I shot the aproaches.We've never > >missed the ground. Not even once. Now Kevin I didn't say runway. > > Best Wishes again > > Jack > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "hoytwma2" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:16:17 -0700 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail wheels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > In Brian O'Neill's 'Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer' there is a > picture of a B-17G (page 384) with the rudder and the tailgunners > compartment gone, chewed off by his wingman's prop as they got in line to > land. > The tailgunner, it said, wasn't in his compartment because he had gone > forward to check the tailwheel only seconds before. > Did the T/G always check the tailwheel or did it vary from crew to crew? > Now , I guess its obvious if the tailwheel is down, but.... > What tells you it is locked? > If its not locked then what are the options? > Could the wheel be lowered manually if it wasnt down? > > Thanks Bill Hoyt > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Fordlauer@aol.com > Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:49:25 EST > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Torque & Propwash > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Howdy guys. > > Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years > as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific > prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted > that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was > 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I > don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was > like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed > working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, > Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, > but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at < > www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. > Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing > inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard > time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Howdy guys.
>
> Now I'm no pilot, but I have spent my life in aviation. I worked many years as a prototype development mechanic for Mr. Ed Swearingen. One specific prototype was a single engine high performance prop job. Mr. Swearingen opted that we would cock the engine rather than the vertical stab. I think it was 1 and a half degrees up and 2 and a half degrees either left or right ( I don't remember). Mr. Swearingen said the plane flew like a dream. He was like that, always looking for ways to make planes better. I really enjoyed working for Ed Swearingen. He is the last of a breed, like Donald Douglas, Bill Lear, Roy Grumman, and the rest. Now Ed didn't build a huge corporation, but he did build some small companies. His latest project can be seen at <www.sj30jet.com> I miss those days. Prototype development is all but gone. Now I work for the FAA. I enjoy the job. For the record, I'm a manufacturing inspector so don't think I'm one of those FAA types that gives pilots a hard time. Take care...............Ford J. Lauer III > > --part1_80.19d2d898.29e01095_boundary-- > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 23:00:04 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 18:00:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail wheel Message-ID: <11b.e9a395b.29e0d7f4@aol.com> George Peterson's reprinted manual for the B-17 says: "The tailwheel gear maybe retracted either electrically or manually. Electrical retraction is controled in the cockpit with the same toggle switch that controls the mai n landing gear retraction motor. For manual retraction, a hand crank is operated through the motor slip clutch. LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 6 23:50:20 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 18:50:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control Surface Locks Message-ID: <170.ba4a9b7.29e0e3bc@aol.com> Peterson's reprinted manual states: "Under section "Visul Oustside Inspection":Check aileron sujrfaces and trim tab alignment, with controls in neutral. Apply presur to the aileron to determine if contols are locked; check for excessive looseness. 2. See that EXTERNAL LOCKS ARE REMOVED. INSPRECT THE TAIL ASSEMBLY 2. Check the condition of the of the elevators and rudder, check the trim tab alignment. Be sure EXTERNAL LOCKS have been removed. 3.Apply pressure to CONTROLK SURFACES to determine whether they are locked or free. hope this is an appropriate answer LeRoy Christenson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 7 18:05:52 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 12:05:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off Message-ID:

Jack -

You should have been (were you?) a teacher. Your explanations are both readable and interesting. Idaho mashed potatos under the house, hmmmmm.......

Brian S. McGuire

>From: Jprencher@aol.com

>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

>To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com

>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off

>Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:33:44 EST

>Lloyd,

> For every force there is a counter force equal in magnitude and opposite

>in direction. If you set 10 pounds of mashed Idaho potatoes (the best kind)

>on a table the table must push up with a counter 10 pounds of force. If the

>table is not strong enough to push up 10 pounds it breaks and then the floor

>must be strong enough to push up 10 pounds. if it isn't you've got 10 pounds

>of potatoes on the ground under the house. When an engine turns the

>propeller clock wise (from the pilots perspective sitting behind it) The

>counter force would tend to turn the airplane counter clockwise (most English

>engines would be just the opposite) This is referred to as torque among you

>flyboys. You can't hold it with alienors as they have no force until they

>are moving and even then the left aileron going down would increase the angle

>of attack and hence lower the stalling speed of the left wing causing it to

>stall and have no lift at all right when it was needed most. So on a small

>single engine plane with a big powerful engine like a P51 when you apply

>power to the propeller turning it to the right it would turn the airplane to

>the left. This would throw most or all the weight on the left landing gear

>causing the left wing to go down hence turning the bird to the left. When

>you apply right rudder it throws the left wing forward a bit increasing the

>lift thereon and holding the bird straight down the runway.

> On a big 4 engine airplane like a B17 the engines are far enough away

>from the center line and two are outboard of the landing gear, effects of

>torque are not so noticeable. You don't need a lot of rudder to counter it.

>Most 4 engine pilots do it with the outboard throttles and don't even realize

>it. One pilot can do it without any problem.

> All the Wright 1820-97 and the older -65s turned the same way

> Good night Lloyd,

> Jack Rencher.

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 00:02:07 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (SHERRON DICKS) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 16:02:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reply Message-ID: Looking forward to sharing and learning with people that know respect I hope that describes this group,If I had to give a personal statement about myself it would be:Respect is something you earn or take! PEACE,LOVE,RESPECT _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 01:13:56 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 17:13:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CB07E54.26964.1ED7328@localhost> Welcome to the list, Sherron. There are some very smart and experienced people here with a vast knowledge of B-17s and life during World War II. > Looking forward to sharing and learning with people that know > respect I > hope that describes this group,If I had to give a personal > statement about myself it would be:Respect is something you earn > or take! > PEACE,LOVE,RESPECT - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 00:47:12 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:47:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Torque & rudder@ take-off Message-ID: <2AABB5AE.3E861900.025FDF1D@aol.com> Fried Brian, Thanks for your kind words. I hope you got the letter on torque I sent on the corkscrew prop wash. I forgot to include it in the first letter. No I was not a teacher. I got kicked out of high school my 2nd year. Sorry about that. Best Wishes Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 10:23:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray.cossey1) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:23:47 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Remote gun aiming Message-ID: <001501c1dedf$78311380$0c25fd3e@RAY> > I have recently watched a TV documentary on the B-29, which detailed the > remote, gun-aiming capabilities of this aircraft. As I understood it the > gunner simply concentrated on taking aim, through his gun sights, whilst an > early form of computerized system, compensated the guns aiming, to take into > account the airspeed of both his and the enemy's aircraft, the wing span of > the attacking fighter, air temperature and such like considerations. > > This has got me wondering if this system was developed solely on the B-29, > or was it perhaps experimented with on another type of plane, possibly, a B-17? Could the B-17 > have been a test-bed for this new gunnery aiming system? > > Does anyone have any info on this query? > > Best wishes to all my 303rder friends > > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 15:47:22 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (eyou321) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 22:47:22 +0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ADV:Harvest lots of Target Email address quickly Message-ID: <20020408145024.2C37653923@pairlist.net>

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From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 16:22:24 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:22:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Leisure activities? Message-ID: Hi list, Okay, I KNOW there was a war on, but I am guessing that there must have been some downtime, due to weather or whatever. Were there any sports leagues or 24 x 7 poker games, etc. Other than the local sites, officers/enlisted men's clubs what else could you do to occupy your time? Or were you just kept to busy? Or was there not much desire to indulge in that kind of stuff? Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 17:21:47 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:21:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enquiry Message-ID: <002f01c1df19$7bdc5be0$c99a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DEEF.925E7B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have received my copy of The Molesworth Story 2nd Edition. It is great and I am enjoying learning things I did not know. Is there info on this CD to list the various medals and ribbons that one = qualifies for. i.e. after I finished my tour with mission 333, I was = told that I qualified for a particular ribbon but I do not recall which = one . And it is possible that those of us earned others that we do not = know about. Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DEEF.925E7B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have received my copy of The = Molesworth Story=20 2nd Edition.

It is great and I am enjoying learning = things I=20 did not know.

Is there info on this CD to list the = various=20 medals and ribbons that one qualifies for. i.e. after I finished my tour = with=20 mission 333, I was told that I qualified for a particular ribbon but I = do not=20 recall which one . And it is possible that those of us earned others = that we do=20 not know about.

Fory Barton

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DEEF.925E7B20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 8 17:23:00 2002 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Remote gun aiming Message-ID: Ray: I went to college with a guy whose father was the chief engineer on the B-29 gun aiming system. I know the system was designed exclusively for the B-29, but that's about all. Kevin >From: "ray.cossey1" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rdBG Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Remote gun aiming >Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:23:47 +0100 > > > > > > > I have recently watched a TV documentary on the B-29, which detailed the > > remote, gun-aiming capabilities of this aircraft. As I understood it the > > gunner simply concentrated on taking aim, through his gun sights, whilst >an > > early form of computerized system, compensated the guns aiming, to take >into > > account the airspeed of both his and the enemy's aircraft, the wing span >of > > the attacking fighter, air temperature and such like considerations. > > > > This has got me wondering if this system was developed solely on the >B-29, > > or was it perhaps experimented with on another type of plane, possibly, >a >B-17? Could the B-17 > > have been a test-bed for this new gunnery aiming system? > > > > Does anyone have any info on this query? > > > > Best wishes to all my 303rder friends > > > > > > Ray Cossey > > Norwich, England > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail servic