Re: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You

Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:15 PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 8th= Air Force Week

Tributes are great but what about = the other air forces and other theaters?
And then there are the differ= ent army divisions and naval fleets. There are
only 52 weeks in a year= so we might run out of weeks. Unit pride is important
to those who se= rved in the unit. As for public recognition and observence, I
prefer t= hat the "war effort" be recognized rather than singling out units,
com= mands, theaters, etc. This is somewhat a parrallel to current society
= trends on everyone labeling themselves as hyphinated americans. You= know-
Native-American, Irish-American, Latin-American, African-Americ= an, and on and
on. Lets just all be Americans, and just appreciate "WW= 2 Veterans and
home-front heros."

Ford J. Lauer III

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C14ECB.578A65E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 8 14:46:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:46:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <69.1c0fc966.28f30852@aol.com> --part1_69.1c0fc966.28f30852_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en HI To All: I hope all are well. This may be a little off list, but I hope you don't= =20 mind. I am retired NYPD and my whole family is on the job. I thought this was=20 great because of that a my love for you guys from the 8th Air force. I hope= =20 you understand.=20 Attack on Afghanistan On ABC Good Morning America they interviewed some of the pilots who flew the Missions over Afghanistan on 10/8/01 over the phone. One reporter asked if any of the B-52=E2=80=99s had Nose Art since they were older planes like they did in World War Two. One of the pilots said, they all have nose art, one plane had=20 =E2=80=9CN.Y.P.D. WE REMEMBER=E2=80=9D on its Nose. He was then asked if he wanted to say anything else. He said =E2=80=9C Hi MOM=E2=80=9D. None of= the pilots were identified. The show also showed some bombs with N.Y.P.D. painted on them. Sorry about going off topic, Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_69.1c0fc966.28f30852_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en HI To All:
  I hope all are well. This may be a little off list, b= ut I hope you don't mind.
I am retired NYPD and my whole family is on the job. I thought thi= s was great because of that a my love for you guys from the 8th Air force. &= nbsp;I hope you understand.=20

            = ;            &nb= sp;          Attack on Afg= hanistan

On ABC Good Morning America they interviewed some of the
pilots who flew the Missions over Afghanistan on 10/8/01 over the
phone. One reporter asked if any of the B-52=E2=80=99s had Nose Ar= t since
they were older planes like they did in World War Two.

One of the pilots said, they all have nose art, one plane had=20
=E2=80=9CN.Y.P.D. WE REMEMBER=E2=80=9D on its Nose. He was then as= ked if
he wanted to say anything else. He said =E2=80=9C Hi MOM=E2=80=9D.= None of the
pilots were identified. The show also showed some bombs with
N.Y.P.D. painted on them.

Sorry about going off topic, Take care.
            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;   Brooklyn Bill --part1_69.1c0fc966.28f30852_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 8 20:27:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:27:40 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NYPD Nose art Message-ID: i saw some of that on Cnn. my youngest brother is US Army special forces, my youngest sister is US Navy aboard the Uss Kitty Hawk, and my wife is US Army as an intelligence analyst at the joint intelligence center (JAC) at RAF Molsworth. i feel that your comments were in line, and i was proud to see those ( buff's ) and their nose art. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 13 16:50:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:50:55 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Allies once more Message-ID: <001801c153ff$02fbb220$4d25fd3e@o7b6a3> On Sunday 9th September I was afforded the privilege of addressing the members of the 303rd B.G. Association, at their Baltimore reunion farwell dinner. On returning home to England I came across the text of my speech and one paragraph, in particular, stood out as kind of prophetic. These were the words I said :- " If, God forbid, we ever find ourselves in the sort of predicament we were in those 60 years ago, I hope it would once again be the servicemen of the good old United States of America who would stand side by side with us." Never in my wildest imaginings did I envisage the consequences of the appalling events of just two days later, in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. Our two nations are once again at war and I am proud that it is the British who have been the first to stand up to be counted, alongside our strongest ally, the United States of America. I have no doubt that we will not forge the same formidable alliance we did all those years ago and that, together with the support of other fair-minded peoples of the world, we will prevail and overcome the cancer of tyranny which is blighting this earth. Our contribution will, of necessity, be subordinate to your own but, it will, nevertheless, be given everything we have and you can be assured you will have no stronger, more committed ally, for however long it takes to achieve this essential victory over terrorism. God bless you all. God bless America and God bless Great Britain. Ray Cossey Honorary member From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 13 21:27:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:27:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Allies once more Message-ID: <115.60fc5c5.28f9fd99@aol.com> --part1_115.60fc5c5.28f9fd99_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Ray: I agree. > God bless you all. God bless America and God bless Great Britain. Brooklyn Bill > > > --part1_115.60fc5c5.28f9fd99_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Ray:
I agree.

God bless you all. God bless America and God bless Great Britain.

Brooklyn Bill

--part1_115.60fc5c5.28f9fd99_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 14 09:26:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:26:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Allies once more References: <001801c153ff$02fbb220$4d25fd3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <3BC94C52.75A9E0E@attglobal.net> Ray ... and your life's love.... May I applaud you for your great speech ... I was not at the reunion, but reading what you wrote here, and also your additions ... made me think of what I saw when in the UK during WW#2 (the one we won). I saw British people putting up with hardships I never dreamed could be forced upon any citizenry. I wondered at the time ... "could we in the US do it?" You are correct. We are great Allies. May we thank God for that. But, may we also go forward and put back into this world some semblance of order. This will take a force many of us have never been used to ...but it will be necessary. When one is in the right, with all their foibles ... they must FORCE such right upon others. If WE think we are right and have the record to prove it ... then we SHOULD force such morals, mores and character upon others. If not, then let us CLOSE OUR CHECKBOOK and let the rest of the world muddle along in their misery. I know the Brits do not have the check book we have, BUT, they have the GUTS and the MORAL FIBER! I sincerely believe that we should, if we believe we are right, FORCE such on many others. This may be anathema to many ... but look what APATHY has gotten us! We'll do it, Ray. Just stick with us. We could never want for better friends and Allies than the UK. Cheers! WCH ray cossey wrote: > On Sunday 9th September I was afforded the privilege of addressing the > members of the 303rd B.G. Association, at their Baltimore reunion farwell > dinner. On returning home to England I came across the text of my speech > and one paragraph, in particular, stood out as kind of prophetic. These were > the words I said :- > > " If, God forbid, we ever find ourselves in the sort of predicament we were > in those 60 years ago, I hope it would once again be the servicemen of the > good old United States of America who would stand side by side with us." > > Never in my wildest imaginings did I envisage the consequences of the > appalling events of just two days later, in New York, Washington and > Pennsylvania. > > Our two nations are once again at war and I am proud that it is the British > who have been the first to stand up to be counted, alongside our strongest > ally, the United States of America. I have no doubt that we will not forge > the same formidable alliance we did all those years ago and that, together > with the support of other fair-minded peoples of the world, we will prevail > and overcome the cancer of tyranny which is blighting this earth. > > Our contribution will, of necessity, be subordinate to your own but, it > will, nevertheless, be given everything we have and you can be assured you > will have no stronger, more committed ally, for however long it takes to > achieve this essential victory over terrorism. > > God bless you all. God bless America and God bless Great Britain. > > Ray Cossey > Honorary member From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 15 07:41:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:41:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth In-Reply-To: <20011001182436.60402.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck. I just got back from England a couple of days ago. I stayed at the BOQ at Alconbury (thanks to Jay Haskins) and he took my son and I over to Molesworth the next morning. Not much there any more of WWII vintage at all. Everything was locked up tighter than a drum, and with what has been happening lately, we didn't try to go near the hangers. There were concrete barricades everywhere on the roads and around the buildings. Security is VERY tight. One of the nicest monuments that exist, however, is the "Hell's Angels 303rd BG" that is at the front gate. Whoever is responsible for putting that up can be real proud of themselves. It is second to none. Jay took me to show me the only piece of original runway still left. It is about 100 foot square, just off a side road. It is all that's left. There are a few buildings, small ones, that are overgrown with trees, and a couple of small sheds off in one field. It was still nice to see the old site, though. It is all hallowed ground to me. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 phone 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com "tailgunnerson" 'Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who gave so much to keep it for the rest of us.' -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Golden Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:25 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #395 - 2 msgs As to the museum at RAF Molesworth, I'm afraid there isn't one. What they have in the public spaces at Building 100, the huge brown barn you see on the right as you come in, is a piece of wall fresco from an old officers' club at one of the old bases and a few prints. Inside building 100 they have some bits and pieces (and a LOT of photos on the walls thanks to Brian McGuire). Unfortunately, this building is seriously off-limits to almost everybody. Duxford is just down the road a bit, however, and is quite a wonderful place. Chuck Golden --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 9/18/2001 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 15 16:47:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:47:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Allies once more Message-ID: <3b.1bba5629.28fc5f2a@aol.com> it is our value to have ya'll as our best friends. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 16 02:28:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:28:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: ] Molesworth vivit... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/15/01 2:41 AM, Gordon L. Alton at gordy@saltspring.com wrote: > Hi Chuck. > I just got back from England a couple of days ago. I stayed at the BOQ at > Alconbury (thanks to Jay Haskins) and he took my son and I over to > Molesworth the next morning. Not much there any more of WWII vintage at > all. Everything was locked up tighter than a drum, and with what has been > happening lately, we didn't try to go near the hangers. There were > concrete barricades everywhere on the roads and around the buildings. > Security is VERY tight. > One of the nicest monuments that exist, however, is the "Hell's Angels > 303rd BG" that is at the front gate. Whoever is responsible for putting > that up can be real proud of themselves. It is second to none. > Jay took me to show me the only piece of original runway still left. It > is about 100 foot square, just off a side road. It is all that's left. > There are a few buildings, small ones, that are overgrown with trees, and > a couple of small sheds off in one field. It was still nice to see the > old site, though. It is all hallowed ground to me. > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 > phone 250-537-5913 > gordy@saltspring.com > "tailgunnerson" > 'Our freedom is not free. > Please remember those who gave so much > to keep it for the rest of us.' > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Golden > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:25 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #395 - 2 msgs > > > As to the museum at RAF Molesworth, I'm afraid there > isn't one. What they have in the public spaces at > Building 100, the huge brown barn you see on the right > as you come in, is a piece of wall fresco from an old > officers' club at one of the old bases and a few > prints. Inside building 100 they have some bits and > pieces (and a LOT of photos on the walls thanks to > Brian McGuire). Unfortunately, this building is > seriously off-limits to almost everybody. Duxford is > just down the road a bit, however, and is quite a > wonderful place. > > Chuck Golden > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 9/18/2001 > > Gordy, you are indeed so fortunate to be counted amongst those who have had the privilege of walking the Molesworth "sacred ground"....Maybe one of these days that our tight budget isn't decimated by prescription drugs or doctor's visits or just plain living expenses, we'll make it too. Per your accolades regarding the monument, I may be wrong but I think a certain chap named McGuire had a heavy hand in its concept and creation. (Incidentally, has anyone heard from Mr. McGuire lately?) Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 16 03:58:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:58:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Allies Once more Message-ID: <108.6fa8f44.28fcfc49@aol.com> --part1_108.6fa8f44.28fcfc49_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We Americans are proud to have you British by our side!! God bless America and Great Britain!!! We will need God's blessing if we are called upon to help to protect our other ally Israel. Terry Lucas --part1_108.6fa8f44.28fcfc49_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We Americans are proud to have you British by our side!! God bless America and Great Britain!!! We will need God's blessing if we are called upon to help to protect our other ally Israel.
Terry Lucas --part1_108.6fa8f44.28fcfc49_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 16 18:04:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #404 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <20011016160502.53A5753964@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20011016170425.81194.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Nyla, Brian McGuire has moved to, I believe, Ohio (or somewhere in the Midwest). His company lost it's contract at Molesworth and he sadly had to pack up and move back to the New World. I wish I had a forwarding address for him (Brian, if you're out there say "Hi!"). As to what's left at Molesworth, Mr. Alton is right. There is little that would remind one of what happened there. In light of recent days, however, I find it somehow reassuring. Maybe in future days the places around where our men and women are waging yet another war on evil today can become as bucolic as Molesworth is. We pray so. cgolden --- 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Molesworth (Gordon L. Alton) > 2. Re: Allies once more (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 3. Re: ] Molesworth vivit... (Bob Hand) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Gordon L. Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:41:19 -0700 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Chuck. > I just got back from England a couple of days ago. I > stayed at the BOQ at > Alconbury (thanks to Jay Haskins) and he took my son > and I over to > Molesworth the next morning. Not much there any more > of WWII vintage at > all. Everything was locked up tighter than a drum, > and with what has been > happening lately, we didn't try to go near the > hangers. There were > concrete barricades everywhere on the roads and > around the buildings. > Security is VERY tight. > One of the nicest monuments that exist, however, is > the "Hell's Angels > 303rd BG" that is at the front gate. Whoever is > responsible for putting > that up can be real proud of themselves. It is > second to none. > Jay took me to show me the only piece of original > runway still left. It > is about 100 foot square, just off a side road. It > is all that's left. > There are a few buildings, small ones, that are > overgrown with trees, and > a couple of small sheds off in one field. It was > still nice to see the > old site, though. It is all hallowed ground to me. > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 > phone 250-537-5913 > gordy@saltspring.com > "tailgunnerson" > 'Our freedom is not free. > Please remember those who gave so much > to keep it for the rest of us.' > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of > Chuck Golden > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:25 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 > #395 - 2 msgs > > > As to the museum at RAF Molesworth, I'm afraid there > isn't one. What they have in the public spaces at > Building 100, the huge brown barn you see on the > right > as you come in, is a piece of wall fresco from an > old > officers' club at one of the old bases and a few > prints. Inside building 100 they have some bits and > pieces (and a LOT of photos on the walls thanks to > Brian McGuire). Unfortunately, this building is > seriously off-limits to almost everybody. Duxford > is > just down the road a bit, however, and is quite a > wonderful place. > > Chuck Golden > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release > Date: 9/18/2001 > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:47:54 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Allies once more > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > it is our value to have ya'll as our best friends. > cheers. spec > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:28:13 -0400 > From: Bob Hand > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: ] Molesworth vivit... > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > on 10/15/01 2:41 AM, Gordon L. Alton at > gordy@saltspring.com wrote: > > > Hi Chuck. > > I just got back from England a couple of days ago. > I stayed at the BOQ at > > Alconbury (thanks to Jay Haskins) and he took my > son and I over to > > Molesworth the next morning. Not much there any > more of WWII vintage at > > all. Everything was locked up tighter than a drum, > and with what has been > > happening lately, we didn't try to go near the > hangers. There were > > concrete barricades everywhere on the roads and > around the buildings. > > Security is VERY tight. > > One of the nicest monuments that exist, however, > is the "Hell's Angels > > 303rd BG" that is at the front gate. Whoever is > responsible for putting > > that up can be real proud of themselves. It is > second to none. > > Jay took me to show me the only piece of original > runway still left. It > > is about 100 foot square, just off a side road. It > is all that's left. > > There are a few buildings, small ones, that are > overgrown with trees, and > > a couple of small sheds off in one field. It was > still nice to see the > > old site, though. It is all hallowed ground to me. > > Gordy. > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > 129 Mariko Place > > Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 > > phone 250-537-5913 > > gordy@saltspring.com > > "tailgunnerson" > > 'Our freedom is not free. > > Please remember those who gave so much > > to keep it for the rest of us.' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of > Chuck Golden > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:25 AM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 > #395 - 2 msgs > > > > > > As to the museum at RAF Molesworth, I'm afraid > there > > isn't one. What they have in the public spaces at > > Building 100, the huge brown barn you see on the > right > > as you come in, is a piece of wall fresco from an > old > > officers' club at one of the old bases and a few > > prints. Inside building 100 they have some bits > and > > pieces (and a LOT of photos on the walls thanks to > > Brian McGuire). Unfortunately, this building is > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 17 09:15:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:15:18 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brian McGuire Message-ID: <003501c156e4$83229b20$5524fd3e@o7b6a3> For Chuck Golden In response to your inquiry please be advised that Brian McGuire's e-mail address is brianmac2@hotmail.com This will enable you to make contact Regards Ray Cossey Honorary Member From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 21 12:40:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rabbit McCroolick) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:40:22 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sorau 11 April 1944 Message-ID: <000d01c15a25$2fcdf0c0$cc8463d9@amdrules2001> Hello, my name is Rafal. I live in Poland in the town Zary wich during WWII was named Sorau. For many years no one known why the town was bombarded on 11 April 1944. I need some detals about mission (planned targets etc.) Thanks for help :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Znajd� MP3 -> Wyszukiwarka multimediow. Jedyna w Polsce. Nowe Centrum Wyszukiwania >> http://szukaj.interia.pl/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 23 17:20:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Sarau 11 April 1944 In-Reply-To: <20011021160625.4A9CD5380B@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20011023162012.44054.qmail@web10807.mail.yahoo.com> > Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:40:22 +0200 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sorau 11 April 1944 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hello, my name is Rafal. > > I live in Poland in the town Zary wich during WWII > was named Sorau. For many > years no one known why the town was bombarded on 11 > April 1944. I need some > detals about mission (planned targets etc.) > Thanks for help :-) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Znajd� MP3 -> Wyszukiwarka multimediow. Jedyna w > Polsce. > Nowe Centrum Wyszukiwania >> > http://szukaj.interia.pl/ The 8th USAAF sent the 1st AD, 88 A/C bombed Sarau and Cottbus with 131 tons of high explosive and incendiaries. They were dispatched to destroy the Sarau Folke-Wolf plant located there. Other formations of this division who bombed other targets in the area had a very rough day, the 40th wing was attacked by Zest'o'rers (Hunter / Killer Squadron?) Z.G.26 when they arrived at Stettin with no escort. They were shot up pretty bad by cannon and rocket fire. These were 11 hour round trip missions! Todd (303rd A637) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 23 17:29:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:29:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sorau 11 April 1944 References: <000d01c15a25$2fcdf0c0$cc8463d9@amdrules2001> Message-ID: <000f01c15bdf$e6a08a40$7068db40@billowen> Rafal, here is the information you asked for. The mission was to bomb a F-190 plant outside Sorau, Germany. 31 planes of the 303rd BG were sent to the target. A little flak was encountered on the way to the target but none over the target. A few German fighter planes were seen but none of them attacked the bombers. There was good friendly fighter support. The bomb run was good and covered the target. 239 500-pound bombs and 478 100-pound bombs were dropped. Three bombers received some flak damage but all planes returned safely to base. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rabbit McCroolick" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sorau 11 April 1944 > Hello, my name is Rafal. > > I live in Poland in the town Zary wich during WWII was named Sorau. For many > years no one known why the town was bombarded on 11 April 1944. I need some > detals about mission (planned targets etc.) > Thanks for help :-) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Znajd� MP3 -> Wyszukiwarka multimediow. Jedyna w Polsce. > Nowe Centrum Wyszukiwania >> http://szukaj.interia.pl/ > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 23 19:42:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:42:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You Message-ID: <001a01c15bf2$77ff0720$34f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C15BB7.C7358200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fellow Members . I haven't got a message for a couple of weeks . = What's up? Dick "Spider "Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C15BB7.C7358200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Fellow Members . I haven't got a = message for a=20 couple of weeks . What's up?

= Dick "Spider=20 "Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C15BB7.C7358200-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 24 13:32:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You In-Reply-To: <001a01c15bf2$77ff0720$34f833cf@richards> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3086757168_10046233_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/23/01 2:42 PM, Dick Smith at spider@ivic.net wrote: Hi Fellow Members . I haven't got a message for a couple of weeks . What's up? Dick "Spider "Smith Seems like the events off Sept.11 have invoked a sort of communication paralysis....this is a time we ought to be in better touch with each other. Flying the flag daily and my B17-WW2 vanity plate finally arrived. Greetings from Johnson City, TN.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3086757168_10046233_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You on 10/23/01 2:42 PM, Dick Smith at spider@ivic.net wrote:

Hi Fellow Members . I haven't= got a message for a couple of weeks . What's up?

Dick= "Spider "Smith

Seems like the events off Sept.11 have invoked a sort of communication para= lysis....this is a time we ought to be in better touch with each other. &nbs= p; Flying the flag daily and my B17-WW2 vanity plate finally arrived. &= nbsp;Greetings from Johnson City, TN.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3086757168_10046233_MIME_Part-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 24 16:02:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:02:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You Message-ID: I check my 303rd BG mail twice per day and the activity has really been slow. I think ever since we switched to a moderated forum, people have lost a little interest since messages take a while for Gary to screen and post. On a personal note, I have just accepted a position in Anchorage, Alaska. If any of you guys are ever up there vacationing, give me a call - my day number will be: Anchorage Economic Development Council 900 West Fifth Ave, Suite 300 Anchorage, AK 99501 (907) 258-3700 Fax: (907) 258-6646 Toll Free: 1-800-462-7275 Kevin >From: Bob Hand >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:48 -0400 > >on 10/23/01 2:42 PM, Dick Smith at spider@ivic.net wrote: > >Hi Fellow Members . I haven't got a message for a couple of weeks . What's >up? > > Dick "Spider "Smith > > >Seems like the events off Sept.11 have invoked a sort of communication >paralysis....this is a time we ought to be in better touch with each other. >Flying the flag daily and my B17-WW2 vanity plate finally arrived. >Greetings from Johnson City, TN.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 24 18:20:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:20:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/24/01 11:02 AM, Kevin Pearson at kevinmpearson@hotmail.com wrote: > I check my 303rd BG mail twice per day and the activity has really been > slow. I think ever since we switched to a moderated forum, people have lost > a little interest since messages take a while for Gary to screen and post. > > On a personal note, I have just accepted a position in Anchorage, Alaska. > If any of you guys are ever up there vacationing, give me a call - my day > number will be: > > Anchorage Economic Development Council > 900 West Fifth Ave, Suite 300 > Anchorage, AK 99501 > (907) 258-3700 > Fax: (907) 258-6646 > Toll Free: 1-800-462-7275 > > Kevin > > > > > >> From: Bob Hand >> Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >> To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You >> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:32:48 -0400 >> >> on 10/23/01 2:42 PM, Dick Smith at spider@ivic.net wrote: >> >> Hi Fellow Members . I haven't got a message for a couple of weeks . What's >> up? >> >> Dick "Spider "Smith >> >> >> Seems like the events off Sept.11 have invoked a sort of communication >> paralysis....this is a time we ought to be in better touch with each other. >> Flying the flag daily and my B17-WW2 vanity plate finally arrived. >> Greetings from Johnson City, TN.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > Good luck, Kevin. Don't forget your woollies...I went out the other frosty AM and invested in a hooded jacket...already have had some below freezing mornings, a far cry from W.Palm Beach Florida. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 24 20:53:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:53:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Introduction Message-ID: <3BD6B9B8.30385.1576128@localhost> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: mpsy@webtv.net (Marvin Shaw) Date sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:49:33 -0400 (EDT) To: 303rd.talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Introduction First, I would like to thank you for welcoming me to membership. Second, a few words about who I am (or perhaps who I was would be a better choice of words!) I was a navigator assigned to the 303rd from May through July, l944. I was a member of M. B. McMillan's crew. I flew 28 sorties (3l missions). All except two were with McMillan's crew. The last one was as substitute navigator on Paul Long's crew. We were damaged badly over Munich and crash landed in Switzerland where were interned. Eventually, I and others escaped from internment and returned to England. I would be pleased to hear from any of my many friends from the 303rd and any others who might be interested. ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 24 20:13:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:13:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where Are You Message-ID: <3a.1ca7d531.29086ce1@aol.com> dick ,it seemed to stop before sept.11,2001. i too miss the chats od such revered members. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 25 14:27:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:27:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Introduction In-Reply-To: <3BD6B9B8.30385.1576128@localhost> Message-ID: on 10/24/01 3:53 PM, Gary Moncur at glm@303rdBGA.com wrote: > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: mpsy@webtv.net (Marvin Shaw) > Date sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:49:33 -0400 (EDT) > To: 303rd.talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Introduction > > First, I would like to thank you for welcoming me to > membership. Second, a few words about who I am (or > perhaps who I was would be a better choice of words!) > > I was a navigator assigned to the 303rd from May through > July, l944. I was a member of M. B. McMillan's crew. I flew 28 > sorties (3l missions). All except two were with McMillan's > crew. The last one was as substitute navigator on Paul Long's > crew. We were damaged badly over Munich and crash > landed in Switzerland where were interned. Eventually, I and > others escaped from internment and returned to England. I > would be pleased to hear from any of my many friends from > the 303rd and any others who might be interested. > > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > A hearty welcome aboard and greetings from Johnson City, TN. Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand 303/360 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 25 19:41:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:41:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Marvin Shaw - Introduction Message-ID: Marv, Welcome aboard! (Sorry for the Navy term, I'm a Navy brat.) Anyway, I know that I and many others would be interested in your escape story. Sometime if you have the inclination could you write it up and send it to the list? Dave Tooley ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: mpsy@webtv.net (Marvin Shaw) Date sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:49:33 -0400 (EDT) To: 303rd.talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Introduction First, I would like to thank you for welcoming me to membership. Second, a few words about who I am (or perhaps who I was would be a better choice of words!) I was a navigator assigned to the 303rd from May through July, l944. I was a member of M. B. McMillan's crew. I flew 28 sorties (3l missions). All except two were with McMillan's crew. The last one was as substitute navigator on Paul Long's crew. We were damaged badly over Munich and crash landed in Switzerland where were interned. Eventually, I and others escaped from internment and returned to England. I would be pleased to hear from any of my many friends from the 303rd and any others who might be interested. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Oct 25 22:48:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:48:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #408 - 3 msgs Message-ID: --part1_bd.16031e5e.2909e2bc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have often wondered if any of the non-commissioned men who were flyers and ground crew personel have chat experience on this fabulous talk-digest? I sure would like to catch up with some of the men I knew. Most of the crew I was on have gone west. If any of you non-coms are out there this digest is for us also. Bob Morris, TSgt. John Scott crew 360th Sqd. --part1_bd.16031e5e.2909e2bc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have often wondered if any of the non-commissioned men who were flyers and ground crew personel have chat experience on this fabulous talk-digest? I sure would like to catch up with some of the men I knew. Most of the crew I was on have gone west.
If any of you non-coms are out there this digest is for us also.
Bob Morris, TSgt. John Scott crew 360th Sqd. --part1_bd.16031e5e.2909e2bc_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 02:26:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:26:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hamburg Mission #53 Message-ID: <004201c15dbd$3921c0c0$693fafd8@jp> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C15D93.4F2FE880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm one of the "silent majority" - always reading and learning, but = seldom contributing to this forum. I have some things to add and = hopefully will get some questions answered. =20 First, welcome to Marvin Shaw. We're glad you're here! Second, I disagree that our forum has suffered any loss with = moderation. I applaud Gary's efforts to keep things on track - that's = why were here. That said, I wonder if anyone else besides my good friend Jim Walsh was = on the 53rd mission to Hamburg? My father, S/Sgt Benny Spring, along = with the rest of the crew, were shot down on this raid. I've read a = great deal about it and learned a lot from Jim and Bob Bridges and I = would like to hear any other oral histories you fellows would be willing = to share. I'm also wondering how many missions fighters had to fly before being = rotated home. Thanks ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C15D93.4F2FE880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm one of the "silent majority" - = always reading=20 and learning, but seldom contributing to this forum. I have some = things to=20 add and hopefully will get some questions answered.

First, welcome to Marvin = Shaw. We're=20 glad you're here!

Second, I disagree that our forum = has=20 suffered any loss with moderation. I applaud Gary's efforts = to keep=20 things on track - that's why were here.

That said, I wonder if anyone else = besides my good=20 friend Jim Walsh was on the 53rd mission to = Hamburg? My=20 father, S/Sgt Benny Spring, along with the rest of the crew, were shot=20 down on this raid. I've read a great deal about it and = learned a lot=20 from Jim and Bob Bridges and I would like to hear any other oral = histories=20 you fellows would be willing to share.

I'm also wondering how many missions = fighters had=20 to fly before being rotated home.

Thanks

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C15D93.4F2FE880-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 05:07:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:07:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hamburg Mission #53 Message-ID: I wasn't on the 53rd mission so I can't help you there. It was before my time. I'm not sure but I think the Fighter pilots tours was based on combat hours, not on missions flown. Best Wishes, Jack R. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 05:20:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (bob stephan) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:20:22 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction Message-ID: Hello to all, I wanted to introduce myself, I have recently registered for the talk forum. I am the son of S/SGT Kenneth Stephan. He was a ball turret gunner on Capt. Lawrence Thompson's crew on the Special Delivery. He flew all but two of his 35 missions on this aircraft, the other two he flew on the Thunderbird. I don't know if any of his crew visit this forum, but if so I would like to hear from them or anyone that knew my father or anything of his crew and activities. I am interested in any information about the 359th. Thank you, Bob Stephan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 18:37:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Hollifield) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Some Chat Message-ID: <20011026173738.75871.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> To those in the group, I thought since talk was slow that I would add some comments. I do a lot more reading than writing within the forum often enjoying the stories and insights into WWII and the 303rd. My dad, Robert Hollifield, served in the 358th from April 44 thru July 44. Almost the same service dates as Mr. Shaw that recently joined the discussions. I must say that there were as many diffent kinds of people then as are now, and I'm sure the war affected each one in his own way. It seemed for my father that he has been very humble and thankful in his later years. I say later years, because I wasn't born until he was 46, so I don't know of his "earlier" years. He really never spoke of the war, but would sometimes talk of his time during service (meals, training, officers, flying, etc.). Of course, as a teenager I would pry and question and sometimes he would open up a little. He said one time that when he first arrived at Molesworth that on days he wasn't flying he would go out and help with the wounded on missions he wasn't scheduled for. But, after a while he stopped doing this because it was too hard. I'm sure many experienced this kind of "avoidance" of the truth. I've heard those in dangerous occupations like racing react similarly, and I'm sure war is worse. War does many bad things to many good people. But, as is now, sometimes peace must be expended in order to finance freedom. Surely all of the WWII generation deserve thanks and gratitude. But, I easily take offense when our current generation is compared unfavorably. The WWII vets did what "had" to be done. No more, no less. It was all anyone could ask or hope for. But there blood runs in the veins of young Americans today. And if it "has" to be done again, the outcome will be equally as certain. With eternal gratitude, Steve Hollifield __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 15:46:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:46:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hamburg Mission #53 Message-ID: <9f.1d445ba6.290ad145@aol.com> --part1_9f.1d445ba6.290ad145_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 32 when I was there in 1945. --part1_9f.1d445ba6.290ad145_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 32 when I was there in 1945. --part1_9f.1d445ba6.290ad145_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 19:56:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:56:54 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language Message-ID: <001801c15e50$153257e0$ab26fd3e@o7b6a3> Hi All As an Englishman I have often fallen foul of the differences in the terminology used by our two nations. What we call 'crisps' you call 'chips' What we call 'chips', you call 'fries' What we call 'jelly', you call 'jello' What we call 'jam', you call 'jelly' Your cars have 'hoods, whereas we have 'bonnets'; the 'boot' to us in the 'trunk' to you and our 'petrol' is your 'gasoline'. Our 'lorries' become your 'trucks' and, finally, I wear 'pants' under my 'trousers', whereas you wear 'shorts' under your 'pants All in all it's very confusing for the Englishman in America, and for you visiting over here. All this has got me to wondering how you 303rders coped with all this language difficulty when you were over here during the war? What oddities of word-usage do you remember and did it ever cause you any embarrassment? It most certainly has me. I once asked a receptionist in a Dayton, Ohio hotel, whilst attending the 1979 reunion of the 303rd BGA, to 'knock me up at 7.30 am'. Her face, and that of another lady guest, was a picture. Little did I realise just what I had proposed. Now I request an early-morning call! It's all an on-going learning curve Regards to all Ray Cossey Honorary Member #3 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 23:09:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:09:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language Message-ID: <92.1c304a70.290b391d@aol.com> Hi Ray Dear Friend, I enjoyed your class in English. I think we learned English pretty fast after we got there. I did ask an English person for directions to the depot where I could catch a train. We finally figured out I was looking for the station. She told me where to go. Once my friend Grisham and I invited two lovely ladies out for fish and chips. Friend Grisham kept reaching over to my plate and helping himself to one of my chips. I said to him.:"Buddie if you keep doing that you are going to draw back a bloody stub." I was not known as a gentleman thereafter As for me I learned to love England and the English people. After meeting you and your wife I know why. Keep the Peace Ray, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Oct 26 23:48:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:48:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Some Chat Message-ID: <39.1ca5be77.290b424b@aol.com> Steve, I read you letter several times. It is not my intent to compare the youth of today with the youth of your fathers time. We live in a far different world and I've been told. we cannot compare apples and oranges If you can find it in your heart to forgive me I would express my observations about your statement Quote. The WWll vets did what "had to be done. No more, no less It was all anyone could ask or hope for". There might have been a very few of your Father's generation that felt that way, but they would be very very few Most did what NEEDED to be done to the very best of their ability and training and that often meant a Hell of a lot more than what "had to be done". If you think the youth of today feels that way, so be it, but don't sell your Father short. If he was in the 8th A.F he probably didn't know what Less meant. Best Wishes Steve, Jack Rencher . From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 02:52:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:52:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language References: <92.1c304a70.290b391d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BDA135F.F4A4E8BF@attglobal.net> For Ray Cossey ... I cannot endorse Jack Rencher's letter to you enough. While Ruth and I are true Anglophiles, my tenure in the UK during the war (the one we won) and also the many years after 1945 that I spent in "Old Blighty" ... made me even love England more. Cheers from the Colonies ... WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Hi Ray Dear Friend, I enjoyed your class in English. I think we learned > English pretty fast after we got there. I did ask an English person for > directions to the depot where I could catch a train. We finally figured out I > was looking for the station. She told me where to go. Once my friend Grisham > and I invited two lovely ladies out for fish and chips. Friend Grisham kept > reaching over to my plate and helping himself to one of my chips. I said to > him.:"Buddie if you keep doing that you are going to draw back a bloody > stub." I was not known as a gentleman thereafter > As for me I learned to love England and the English people. After > meeting you and your wife I know why. > Keep the Peace Ray, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 05:37:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:37:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Quinine Bitter Dose Message-ID: <65.1cc31b25.290b93f8@aol.com> --part1_65.1cc31b25.290b93f8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm Mike Watson son of James Watson ,Tech SGT. who flew with 1Lt George Stallings (Pilot), 1Lt J. Ford Kelley (Navigator), 1Lt Joseph E. Bradbury (CP), 2Lt Frank E. Kulesa (B) S/Sgt Meyer "Mike" Levin (R), T/Sgt Arthur S. Stevens (BT), Sgt Walter K. Pallage, S/Sgt John J. Stickler (WG), Sgt Lawrence C. Pierson (TG), S/Sgt Robert H. Yattaw (WG), T/Sgt James A. Watson (Engineer & top turret gunner) Dad said Dick Jones ,(radio operator aboard "Quinine Bitter Dose") was killed when they were shot out of formation over Hamburg. He said as they fought to maintain altitude and control of the plane, and fend off attackers who swarmed in to finish them off, Dick had opened the little hatch on the top of the bomber to send out a "May Day" or location or something when a 20mm round flew through the opening and exploded through his chest. I've gotta go for now. I'm glad to have had a time before Dad passed on,(1992), to sit with him and hear him tell of his experiences, the good and the bad. It was the one and only time I would ever hear them as Dad never talked otherwise about the war. I look forward to getting the history down as I recall his accounts of missions, fun times, and memories, ans hearing the same from others. Mike --part1_65.1cc31b25.290b93f8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello,

      I'm Mike Watson son of James Watson ,Tech SGT. who flew with
1Lt George Stallings (Pilot),    1Lt J. Ford Kelley (Navigator),
1Lt Joseph E. Bradbury (CP), 2Lt Frank E. Kulesa (B)
S/Sgt Meyer "Mike" Levin (R), T/Sgt Arthur S. Stevens (BT),
Sgt Walter K. Pallage, S/Sgt John J. Stickler (WG),
Sgt Lawrence C. Pierson (TG), S/Sgt Robert H. Yattaw (WG),
T/Sgt James A. Watson (Engineer & top turret gunner)

Dad said Dick Jones ,(radio operator aboard "Quinine Bitter Dose") was killed when they were shot out of formation over Hamburg. He said as they fought to maintain altitude and control of the plane, and fend off attackers who swarmed in to finish them off, Dick had opened the little hatch on the top of the bomber to send out a "May Day" or location or something when a 20mm round flew through the opening and exploded through his chest.

      I've gotta go for now.

I'm glad to have had a time before Dad passed on,(1992), to sit with him and hear him tell of his experiences, the good and the bad. It was the one and only time I would ever hear them as Dad never talked otherwise about the war.

      I look forward to getting the history down as I recall his accounts of missions, fun times, and memories, ans hearing the same from others.

Mike     --part1_65.1cc31b25.290b93f8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 05:42:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:42:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Some Chat Message-ID: <18.1469da22.290b9532@aol.com> bravo!!! jack. i do not recall hearing in talk as to fear. training built the greateast esprit de corps and we served ,recognizing personally our patriotic duty. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 18:48:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:48:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language Message-ID: This is a great question Ray and I hope all of you vets will reply. My only comment is I was writing a postcard at the front desk in the lobby of the Gonville Place in Cambridge. I was using a pencil that was worn to the nub on both ends and when I tried to erase a mispelled word, you guesed it, this sweet little girl behind the counter said in a full English accent, "Do you need a rubber." Well, with that my first time in the UK, I must have turned three shades of red, and said, "No, I don't need that, but I could use an eraser? She looked at me and said, "Wot is an eraser," Well, after several minutes of somewhat embarrasing dialogue, we both figured it out. And don't forget the Tannoy (a louspeaker) or a "Curcuit" instead of a touch and go. Or how about Lorry Park, always liked that one. And my favorite of them all is "Way Out" instead of Exit. In Spanish this word is "Salida," and in German it's "Fucher." I had to ask where the exit was in a German parking lot once, and the guard said, "Oh, you mean the F@#$%^&." Cheers! Kevin Kevin >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Talk Forum" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:56:54 +0100 > >Hi All > >As an Englishman I have often fallen foul of the differences in the >terminology used by our two nations. > >What we call 'crisps' you call 'chips' >What we call 'chips', you call 'fries' >What we call 'jelly', you call 'jello' >What we call 'jam', you call 'jelly' >Your cars have 'hoods, whereas we have 'bonnets'; the 'boot' to us in the >'trunk' to you and our 'petrol' is your 'gasoline'. Our 'lorries' become >your 'trucks' and, finally, I wear 'pants' under my 'trousers', whereas you >wear 'shorts' under your 'pants > >All in all it's very confusing for the Englishman in America, and for you >visiting over here. All this has got me to wondering how you 303rders coped >with all this language difficulty when you were over here during the war? >What oddities of word-usage do you remember and did it ever cause you any >embarrassment? > >It most certainly has me. I once asked a receptionist in a Dayton, Ohio >hotel, whilst attending the 1979 reunion of the 303rd BGA, to 'knock me up >at 7.30 am'. Her face, and that of another lady guest, was a picture. >Little >did I realise just what I had proposed. Now I request an early-morning >call! >It's all an on-going learning curve > >Regards to all > > >Ray Cossey >Honorary Member #3 > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 19:01:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:01:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hamburg Mission #53 Message-ID: Since I am the one who said the forum has suffered as a result of the moderation, let me set the record straight. In no way was my comment directed negatively towards Gary. You are right, this is his forum and he did what he had to do to keep us on track. Thanks again Gary for all your hard work! My comment was merely an observation that once the forum became moderated, traffic slowed down, that was all. And fighter pilots flew so many hours before they were rotated. I want to say 300 hours, but that could be wrong and probably varied with the specific time in the ETO. Where is Spider when you need him? Kevin >From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hamburg Mission #53 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:26:21 -0500 > >I'm one of the "silent majority" - always reading and learning, but seldom >contributing to this forum. I have some things to add and hopefully will >get some questions answered. > >First, welcome to Marvin Shaw. We're glad you're here! > >Second, I disagree that our forum has suffered any loss with moderation. >I applaud Gary's efforts to keep things on track - that's why were here. > >That said, I wonder if anyone else besides my good friend Jim Walsh was on >the 53rd mission to Hamburg? My father, S/Sgt Benny Spring, along with the >rest of the crew, were shot down on this raid. I've read a great deal >about it and learned a lot from Jim and Bob Bridges and I would like to >hear any other oral histories you fellows would be willing to share. > >I'm also wondering how many missions fighters had to fly before being >rotated home. > >Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 19:03:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:03:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two nations, divided by a common language In-Reply-To: <001801c15e50$153257e0$ab26fd3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: on 10/26/01 2:56 PM, ray cossey at ray.cossey@virgin.net wrote: > Hi All > > As an Englishman I have often fallen foul of the differences in the > terminology used by our two nations. > > What we call 'crisps' you call 'chips' > What we call 'chips', you call 'fries' > What we call 'jelly', you call 'jello' > What we call 'jam', you call 'jelly' > Your cars have 'hoods, whereas we have 'bonnets'; the 'boot' to us in the > 'trunk' to you and our 'petrol' is your 'gasoline'. Our 'lorries' become > your 'trucks' and, finally, I wear 'pants' under my 'trousers', whereas you > wear 'shorts' under your 'pants > > All in all it's very confusing for the Englishman in America, and for you > visiting over here. All this has got me to wondering how you 303rders coped > with all this language difficulty when you were over here during the war? > What oddities of word-usage do you remember and did it ever cause you any > embarrassment? > > It most certainly has me. I once asked a receptionist in a Dayton, Ohio > hotel, whilst attending the 1979 reunion of the 303rd BGA, to 'knock me up > at 7.30 am'. Her face, and that of another lady guest, was a picture. Little > did I realise just what I had proposed. Now I request an early-morning call! > It's all an on-going learning curve > > Regards to all > > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member #3 > > On top of it all, we raise a glass and say "Here's to you' and then drink it ourselves. No manners whatsoever. Thanks for the uptake, Ray. Best wishes from Johnson City, Tennessee. Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 20:26:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:26:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ray Cossey- RE: Language Differences Message-ID: <7d.1cfdda54.290c6467@aol.com> Ray, You are certainly right about the language. I made several trips to the UK for work. One of them to Southampton for six weeks. Being a Texas Cowboy, I drew many stares walking down the streets wearing boots and hat. Little kids running up to me and asking if I were a cowboy. I remember the Brits there using the word "cheers" a lot, and it having many meanings. Any kind of a plan is called a "scheme." Pieces of anything are called "bits." I certainly got my fill of peas and lamb there. I must say that I was never once treated rudely. I think the Brits are a tad bit better mannered than the Americans. Not that I am insulting my fellow Americans, it just seems that manners are more important to the Brits. Of course every country has its punks and no-counts. I liked Southampton. For a tourist it is a great place. It is strategically located also. I rode the train into London several times. I rode to Winchester, to the Roman Baths, to Portsmouth, and the ferry to the Isle of White. The best roast beef I've had in my live was in the UK. They make pretty good Chile there also, but don't tell my fellow Texans I said that. Take care and "cheers" Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Oct 27 21:22:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:22:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ray Cossey- RE: Language Differences References: <7d.1cfdda54.290c6467@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BDB1788.8C0B7FCF@attglobal.net> Ford ... I recall it was often said that England and the United States were two countries separated by a common language .... Let us, however, thank God and whomever else may be responsible ... that the UK is our most staunch Ally. In my post-war (the one we won) era, I was living in Rome, Italy in my career as an airline captain. My wife used to dash up to London merely to shop now and then. Even living in Italy where women's shoes were supposed to be the best ... she flew up to London to Dolcis for her shoes. They were made better, even if the Italin styles seemed better. She was able to fly up now and then because I was the Chief Pilot of the company and as such, executives and staff could fly at will, as it were. We once took 50 days of vacation in the UK. We put the kids in a Nursing Home in Sussex Square, rented a Flat and toured the entire British Isles in a rented Morris Minor. Now THAT was a car. Many times we had to go up hills in reverse gear for the forward gears did not have the guts to do so. Between the war (the one we won) and 1985 there was not six monhs to a year went by that we were not in the UK sometime. We even went there for a week prior to our going off on the Orient Express to Venice for a week or so. When I left Lufthansa and went with TIA (later TA) I spent a LOT of time in the UK due to our having a major base there at Gatwick Airport. Cannot say enough about the Brits ... As to the language, I do not think I had too much trouble with it except for the time I told a young lass that I would pat her on the fanny if she did not behave .... There is one thing which comes to mind in the wake of the 9-11-01 terrorism ... and that is that NO ONE has suggested using barrage balloons for protection around major sports events and other public gatherings ... hmm! I wonder if it would be a deterrent. As pilots did we NOT hate those things? I recall going into an aerdrome named Speak near Liverpool once and the barrage balloons almost GOT me ... Cheers! WCH Fordlauer@aol.com wrote: > Ray, > > You are certainly right about the language. I made several trips to the UK > for work. One of them to Southampton for six weeks. Being a Texas Cowboy, I > drew many stares walking down the streets wearing boots and hat. Little kids > running up to me and asking if I were a cowboy. I remember the Brits there > using the word "cheers" a lot, and it having many meanings. Any kind of a > plan is called a "scheme." Pieces of anything are called "bits." I certainly > got my fill of peas and lamb there. I must say that I was never once treated > rudely. I think the Brits are a tad bit better mannered than the Americans. > Not that I am insulting my fellow Americans, it just seems that manners are > more important to the Brits. Of course every country has its punks and > no-counts. I liked Southampton. For a tourist it is a great place. It is > strategically located also. I rode the train into London several times. I > rode to Winchester, to the Roman Baths, to Portsmouth, and the ferry to the > Isle of White. The best roast beef I've had in my live was in the UK. They > make pretty good Chile there also, but don't tell my fellow Texans I said > that. > > Take care and "cheers" > Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 28 10:47:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:47:42 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings Message-ID: <003d01c15f9f$076b5d00$2a25fd3e@o7b6a3> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C15F9D.F82EB7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the many wartime souvenirs I have at home is a 0.5 bullet, = complete except, of course, for the cordite (which I removed) and the = percussion cap (which I fired!). I found it on the former 8th AF base at = Rackheath, Norfolk, where the 467th BG were based with their B24's. It's = no more than a couple of miles from where I live. Stamped on the bottom end of the casing are the letters S and L, = together with the number 4. I am guessing that perhaps the '4' refers to = the year of manufacture (1944) and that the letters refer to the factory = where it was manufactured. Am I correct in my assumtions? I was hoping that there is an old amourer = out there who might be conversant with these matters and can enlighten = me further. Hope so. Ray Cossey Honorary Member # Norwich, England ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C15F9D.F82EB7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the many wartime souvenirs I have at home is = a 0.5=20 bullet, complete except, of course, for the cordite (which I removed) = and the=20 percussion cap (which I fired!). I found it on the former 8th AF base at = Rackheath, Norfolk, where the 467th BG were based with their B24's. It's = no more=20 than a couple of miles from where I live.

Stamped on the bottom end of the casing are the = letters=20 S and L, together with the = number=20 4. I am guessing that perhaps the '4' refers to the = year of=20 manufacture (1944) and that the letters refer to the factory where = it=20 was manufactured.

Am I correct in my assumtions? I was hoping that = there is an=20 old amourer out there who might be conversant with these matters and can = enlighten me further. Hope so.

Ray Cossey

Honorary Member #

Norwich, England

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C15F9D.F82EB7C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 28 20:05:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:05:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ray Cossey- RE: Language Differences Message-ID: Having been to most of the former 8th AF Heavy Bomber bases in the last couple of years, I must agree that the English are btter mannered than we Americans. At every (EVERY) base and town I visited, I was treated with the utmost respect, and sometimes curiosity. Even the tower at Rackheath that I was warned to stay away from because the owner greats guests with a shot gun welcomed me onto his property to photograph it. And you don't go stompng around anyone's "patch" without first seeking permission. I have an A-2 painted up in the marking of the 532nd BS or the 381st BG, (sorry fellas) and I had everyone from "that generation," to young kids coming up to me asking me if my jacket was from the war. Recently I was standing in line wearing my A-2 waiting for a plane for Anchorage and this little old lady wearing Alaska garb came up to me and said, "I haven't seen one of those since the war." We got to talking and she had been a 13 year old living in Manchester during the war. We spent five hours talking about what it was like for English youth in war torn England. >From: Fordlauer@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ray Cossey- RE: Language Differences >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:26:31 EDT > >Ray, > >You are certainly right about the language. I made several trips to the UK >for work. One of them to Southampton for six weeks. Being a Texas Cowboy, I >drew many stares walking down the streets wearing boots and hat. Little >kids >running up to me and asking if I were a cowboy. I remember the Brits there >using the word "cheers" a lot, and it having many meanings. Any kind of a >plan is called a "scheme." Pieces of anything are called "bits." I >certainly >got my fill of peas and lamb there. I must say that I was never once >treated >rudely. I think the Brits are a tad bit better mannered than the Americans. >Not that I am insulting my fellow Americans, it just seems that manners are >more important to the Brits. Of course every country has its punks and >no-counts. I liked Southampton. For a tourist it is a great place. It is >strategically located also. I rode the train into London several times. I >rode to Winchester, to the Roman Baths, to Portsmouth, and the ferry to the >Isle of White. The best roast beef I've had in my live was in the UK. They >make pretty good Chile there also, but don't tell my fellow Texans I said >that. > >Take care and "cheers" >Ford J. Lauer III > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Oct 28 20:18:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:18:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings Message-ID: Hi Ray: I went to Germany and found the remains of three a/c shot down from the 91st BG on 16.8.44. We found quite a bit of shell casings from .50s fired during the air battle (you could tell because a firing pin had hit and marked the primer), as well as ammo that had cooked off in the resulting fire. The SL you refer to stands for St. Louis, meaning the origin of where the ammo was manufactured. All of my ammo is stamped with the last two numbers of the year they were produced, 43 and 44. Never heard of just 4 before, but I would guess it stands for 1940. I'll have to look at my ammo again and check out the stamps. I'll let you know soon. Kevin >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Talk Forum" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:47:42 -0000 > >One of the many wartime souvenirs I have at home is a 0.5 bullet, complete >except, of course, for the cordite (which I removed) and the percussion cap >(which I fired!). I found it on the former 8th AF base at Rackheath, >Norfolk, where the 467th BG were based with their B24's. It's no more than >a couple of miles from where I live. > >Stamped on the bottom end of the casing are the letters S and L, together >with the number 4. I am guessing that perhaps the '4' refers to the year of >manufacture (1944) and that the letters refer to the factory where it was >manufactured. > >Am I correct in my assumtions? I was hoping that there is an old amourer >out there who might be conversant with these matters and can enlighten me >further. Hope so. > >Ray Cossey >Honorary Member # >Norwich, England > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 29 14:45:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:45:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 50 Cal. head stamp Message-ID: <000501c16088$5a7f5e80$18bb9ace@mjpmtman> Kevin & Ray - You are right Kevin----SL is St. Louis arsensal. I too am curious about the single digit date. I find no publishing date on my reference - Cartridges of the World - 7th edition. It's about 4 years old. " The basic US military head stamp prior to WWII had two elements with the factory code at 12 o'clock adn the date at 6 O'clock The rapid expansion of ammunition manufactuing facilities as the result of the war introduced many new designs without any effort at standardization. .Some used three elements spread equidistant from each other while others adopted four element system located at 12, 3,6 & 9 O'clock. Also the location of the factory code was, in some instances , to 6 O'clock or other locations." Confusing isn't it. I have three metal linked 50s -- They were found scattered over the area of a B-17 out of the Grand Island Base that crashed north and west of town at the time I was in England.------ 2 - SL 42 tracer [ red tip before I deactivated them] are-- RA [Remington Arms] 42 black tip AP. All three are the same arsenal at 11 and 2 O'clock and date and 6 O'clock ---The RA head stamp is a guess on my part. However in the backof my mind I have the name Rockford [t].???????----- Hope I haven't bored you.------Maurice Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 29 16:38:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:38:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Language confusion. Message-ID: <000c01c16098$291015a0$399a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C16065.DDBD0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During my tour I had two separate usages of the term,"knocked up". At a dance at our club, I approached a young girl and asked for a dance. = She replied, "I simply cawn't, I am too knocked up". I did give her = figure a good look and wondered how long. Later, I was told that it = meant tired. I also had the maid in the Regent Palace hotel ask me what time I wanted = to be knocked up. By this time I was more familiar with the term and was = able to respond appropriately. Ta Fory Barton(Kirk's crew). ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C16065.DDBD0400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

During my tour I had two = separate usages=20 of the term,"knocked up".

At a dance at our club, I approached a = young=20 girl and asked for a dance. She replied, "I simply cawn't, I am too = knocked up".=20 I did give her figure a good look and wondered how long. Later, I was = told that=20 it meant tired.

I also had the maid in the Regent = Palace hotel=20 ask me what time I wanted to be knocked up. By this time I was more = familiar=20 with the term and was able to respond appropriately.

Fory Barton(Kirk's=20 crew).

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C16065.DDBD0400-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 02:45:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:45:08 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighters & barrage balloons Message-ID: <006501c160ec$e477f660$1c3fafd8@jp> Thanks for the answers on the fighter question. I have recently made the acquaintance of a Tuskegee Pilot who told me he flew 132 missions, but for some reason we did not discuss hours flown. I have a general idea of how barrage balloons worked, but I would appreciate a detailed explanation. Thanks From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 09:43:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:43:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fighters & barrage balloons Message-ID: Barrage Balloons were realty quite simple. They would put up a fleet of them. I don't know how many. between a city and the continent. They would be close to the city. They had cables. I suppose steel, hanging. down below them. The theory was that the Germans would fly into them and get their wings , etc., sliced off. They had radio transmitters on them that broadcast a signal for just a few miles. When we were flying home from a mission and heard that signal we immediately did a complicated military maneuver call a 180 and returned to base VIA another route. The Germans were not stupid. so I suppose they heard the signal too and used the same complicated military maneuver we did. I don't know if they ever caused many wings,etc to get sliced off, but I'm sure they caused the Germans to change their I.P. and maybe run out of fuel of which they were short or maybe be over England longer and get lost or shot down. The English are smart too and just maybe? sometimes they turned on the transmitters when the balloons were not up. Remember old chap it is sometime a bit foggy in the Mother country so it was EZ to fly into things and never see them, Even Church steeples which were made of stone, which is a rather unforgiving material I am told. I never tried it myself but I had a fellow pilot who did but I never ever talked to him about it. Really honest. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 29 14:26:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:26:56 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ammo identification Message-ID: <000201c1613e$238a0900$d025fd3e@o7b6a3> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16085.C32FEF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Kevin Pearson for enlightning me about the markings on the 0.5 = round I have in my war memorabilia collection. My assumption that the S = & L indicated the place of manufacture was, in fact, correct and I now = know it stands for St. Louis. As concerns the other marking, (the number 4), I think it very unlikely = that this stood for 1940, as the year of manufacture. My reason for = saying this is that Rackheath, Norfolk (Station 145 - 2nd Air Division) was not occupied by the 467th BG until = March 1944. I cannot envisage a round of ammo, manufactured in 1940, = still being available for use four years after manufacture. Also, it has = to be appreciated that the round I found had not been fired and was = within the dump excavated by the Americans when they left the base in = July 1945. This means it was current inventory, again suggesting it was = of 1944 manufacture. Seems, Kevin, that I may have an oddity that missed = having the second 4 stamped on it. On the other matter of the language differences, I don't think I ever = said 'we Brits are better mannered than you Americans'. Our manners = might sometimes be different, but that doesn't necessarily make them = better. On my frequent visits to the States I have always been met with = courtesy. Well almost everytime - I did once run across a less than = polite New York taxi driver, but some of ours can also be awkward = s.o.b.'s! Regards Ray Cossey ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16085.C32FEF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks to Kevin Pearson for enlightning me about the = markings=20 on the 0.5 round I have in my war memorabilia collection. My assumption = that the=20 S & L indicated the place of manufacture was, in fact, correct and I = now=20 know it stands for St. Louis.

As concerns the other marking, (the number 4), I = think it very=20 unlikely that this stood for 1940, as the year of manufacture. My reason = for=20 saying this is that Rackheath, Norfolk

(Station 145 - 2nd Air Division) was not occupied by = the 467th=20 BG until March 1944. I cannot envisage a round of ammo, manufactured in = 1940,=20 still being available for use four years after manufacture. Also, it has = to be=20 appreciated that the round I found had not been fired and was within the = dump=20 excavated by the Americans when they left the base in July 1945. This = means it=20 was current inventory, again suggesting it was of 1944 manufacture. = Seems,=20 Kevin, that I may have an oddity that missed having the second 4 stamped = on=20 it.

On the other matter of the language differences, I = don't think=20 I ever said 'we Brits are better mannered than you Americans'. Our = manners might=20 sometimes be different, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. = On my=20 frequent visits to the States I have always been met with courtesy. Well = almost=20 everytime - I did once run across a less than polite New York taxi = driver, but=20 some of ours can also be awkward s.o.b.'s!

Regards

Ray Cossey

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16085.C32FEF60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 13:52:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:52:23 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <001201c1614a$7f747fa0$9624fd3e@o7b6a3> Jay & Robin Primavera asked about barrage ballooons. As a very young child, during the war, I vividly recall these balloons, which to us kids resembled flying elephants! To help them understand more about barrage balloons, I am reproducing details from the book 'Blitz Over Britain', by Edwin Webb & John Duncan; published in 1990 by Spellmount Limited, 12 Dene Way, Speldhurst, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, TN3 0NX, England ********************************************** BARRAGE BALLOONS OVER BRITAIN Barrage balloons were a regular feature of the wartime skies around Britain's cities, ports and other sites vulnerable to air attack. Many people saw a strange beauty in these silvery shapes floating above them, and found them comforting, especially when raids were threatened. Balloon barrages were a form of pas-sive defence which forced enemy raiders to fly higher, making their aim less accurate. Planes at 10,000 feet or more, unlike low-flying, high-speed aircraft, were easier to hit with AX fire. So balloons were an effective deterrent to the dreaded dive bomber. Hitting a cable meant almost certain destruction - but for the RAF, unfortunately, as well as for the Luftwaffe. The first balloons over London, some 40 of them, were seen in 1938 - evidence of the approach of war and of the city's vulnerability to attack. Eventually the RAF had 55 squadrons in Balloon Com-mand operating thousands of balloons, each about 60 feet in length and 30 feet in diameter at their widest point. They were filled with some 20,000 cu ft of hydrogen gas and could be set at various heights. Crews hoisted the balloons up and down either from winch-equipped lorries (for greater mobility) or from permanent sites in parks, squares and other open spaces. Weather was an enemy, and at one period losses due to unexpected changes were such that squadrons were forced to keep two-thirds of their balloons, de-flated, on the ground. Buried railway sleepers or sandbags were often used as anchors. Handling balloons was a strenuous and sometimes dangerous job. At the start of the war it was considered too tough for women, but with the man-power shortage crews of 16 WAAF5* took over from 10-men RAF crews, releasing the men for more active duty. By 1942 most barrages were operated by women who, rank for rank, were the highest paid of all WAAFs. The obvious method of siting barrage balloons was to station them around the perimeter of the area to be protected. But it was found that if they were set at equidistant points over the whole area a much better barrage was formed. Known as 'field-siting' this method provided a better defence against dive bombers, and the 'staggered' formation meant that the balloons did not have to be so close to each other, which could be dangerous. Balloons made good targets for enemy fighter pilots, of course, especially in fine weather - when fighter planes and AX guns could be used to best effect - and they were safest from enemy attack at night or in poor visibility, which was just when they were most needed. How many German aircraft were brought down by barrage balloons is difficult to estimate, but the official figure given in Parliament in October 1945 was as low as 24 piloted and 278 non-piloted. But these figures do not, of course, begin to represent the true value of the balloon barrage as a means of defence. Enemy losses caused by striking cables were difficult to record. Many barrages were on the coast, and a crash was only credited if on land. Confirmed Luftwaffe losses include Heinkels brought down at Newport (Mon.), at South Shields, and in the River Mersey, as well as seven other aircraft early in 1941. But RAF losses of men and machines caused by barrage cables were most carefully re-corded, and rose to alarming levels. The official total by the end of the war was 91 collisions with cables and 38 actual crashes, but the true figure may have been much higher. Balloons came into their own when the Vi offensive started. 'When Intelli-gence learned early in 1944 that an attack was planned with these 'pilotless aircraft', urgent defence measures in-cluded a Curtain Balloon Barrage south of London. At first this was to consist of a belt of 500 balloons sited on high ground and flying at 4-5,000 feet between Gravesend and Sevenoaks. By June 1944 most of these were in position. That month the Curtain Barrage brought down 46 flying bombs, and as a result it was extended and thickened. In July, 1,750 new sites were built, and by August the number was increased to more than 2,000. By this time over 100 V1s had been brought down. As far as possible, the sites were kept away from populated districts, and often access roads had to be very hurriedly laid across fields and through woods to remote anchorages. Even so, some villages in Kent and Sussex were badly damaged when V1's hit nearby balloon cables. As the bomb tended to slide down the cable it struck, crews were at risk and several were killed. Many balloons were also destroyed when hit by lightning. But by the time the V1 sites in Europe had been captured by Allied armies, RAF Balloon Command could proudly claim that they had brought down 278 (later confirmed as 233) V1s. In practical terms, what was the real value of the balloon barrage to the war effort? The number of enemy aircraft brought down seems so small (even if V1 successes are added to the account) and the number of Allied planes destroyed so high, that the question has to be asked -was the cost worth it? And the answer has to be that the benefit of the balloon barrage lay not in the cold figures, but in the unquantifiable deterrent effect on Luftwaffe pilots. Another important factor that cannot be measured is the sense of security given, in those bomb-scarred days and nights, to the millions who lived under the protection of those 'strangely serene and beautiful shapes.' BALLOONS AND THE FERRY PILOTS New aircraft were usually delivered to air-fields by special ferry pilots (often women). In her book The Forgotten Pilots Lettice Curtis shows how balloon barrages added to the dangers and difficulties of ferrying. Sometimes ferry pilots had to be briefed by the RAF on the location of balloons and recommended safety lanes. All of which indicates how difficult barrage balloons must have made life for German pilots. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 14:15:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:15:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 50 Cal. head stamp Message-ID: Thanks Maurice for your much better description of the stamps than I gave. The cartridges I have a soaking in motor oil and as soon as I get them cleaned, I'll let you know what they say. Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 50 Cal. head stamp >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:45:25 -0600 > >Kevin & Ray - You are right Kevin----SL is St. Louis arsensal. I too am >curious about the single digit date. I find no publishing date on my >reference - Cartridges of the World - 7th edition. It's about 4 years old. >" >The basic US military head stamp prior to WWII had two elements with the >factory code at 12 o'clock adn the date at 6 O'clock The rapid expansion of >ammunition manufactuing facilities as the result of the war introduced many >new designs without any effort at standardization. .Some used three >elements >spread equidistant from each other while others adopted four element system >located at 12, 3,6 & 9 O'clock. Also the location of the factory code was, >in some instances , to 6 O'clock or other locations." Confusing isn't it. > > I have three metal linked 50s -- They were found scattered over the area >of >a B-17 out of the Grand Island Base that crashed north and west of town at >the time I was in England.------ 2 - SL 42 tracer [ red tip before I >deactivated them] are-- RA [Remington Arms] 42 black tip AP. All three are >the same arsenal at 11 and 2 O'clock and date and 6 O'clock ---The RA head >stamp is a guess on my part. However in the backof my mind I have the name >Rockford [t].???????----- Hope I haven't bored you.------Maurice Paulk > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 14:26:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:26:24 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Talk digest, Vol 1 #411 - Common Language Message-ID: <110.7967410.29101290@aol.com> --part1_110.7967410.29101290_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, One time while in London, I ordered Welsh Rabbit at a restaurant, when the food order arrived, I had to ask the waiter "wheres the rabbit"??? ps: Bill Heller, i wear hushpuppies from SAS shoe store and get Olgas at Payless, what a deal these days, but i still have my old "joppers" that i bought in London back in 1943. cheers.... Bill Bergeron --part1_110.7967410.29101290_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
One time while in London, I ordered Welsh Rabbit at a restaurant, when the food order arrived, I had to ask the waiter "wheres the rabbit"???
ps: Bill Heller, i wear hushpuppies from SAS shoe store and get Olgas at Payless, what a deal these days, but i still have my old "joppers" that i bought in London back in 1943.
cheers....
Bill Bergeron --part1_110.7967410.29101290_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 20:27:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:27:41 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: thanks. very good info. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 20:29:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:29:35 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ammo identification Message-ID: <17.1dbeffad.291067af@aol.com> ray ,my stay was mostant as relations with your citizenry. spec enjoyed nottingham very much. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Oct 30 22:49:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:49:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #413 - 3 msgs Message-ID: --part1_ae.1cfd32a5.29108884_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Knocked-up I had an experience when on my first pass to London. I was with my crew and we were crossing Tulgerfer square when a young girl stopped me in my tracks and ask if I was interested. I said not at this time. She replyed, then here is my tellie and please knock me up sometime. I stepped back and said to her "I cam here to save your a-- not buy it. Boy did I get a smack in the mouth. I was really ashamed and I sure deserved that smack when I found out what she meant. --part1_ae.1cfd32a5.29108884_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Knocked-up
I had an experience when on my first pass to London. I was with my crew and we were crossing Tulgerfer square when a young girl stopped me in my tracks and ask if I was interested. I said not at this time. She replyed, then here is my tellie and please knock me up sometime. I stepped back and said to her "I cam here to save your a-- not buy it. Boy did I get a smack in the mouth. I was really ashamed and I sure deserved that smack when I found out what she meant. --part1_ae.1cfd32a5.29108884_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Oct 29 03:10:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:10:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C15FF4.FE655FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I would agree the SL is St. Louis, but as for the 4, this is 44, dur= ing the war a lot of corners were cut, I have seen it both ways with one = and two digits, and the 3 and 5 were not for 1930 or 50. What does the= bullet tip look like? Lance Burrell ----- Original Message ----- From: ray cossey Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:06 AM To: 303rd Talk Forum Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings One of the many wartime souvenirs I have at home is a 0.5 bullet, complet= e except, of course, for the cordite (which I removed) and the percussion= cap (which I fired!). I found it on the former 8th AF base at Rackheath,= Norfolk, where the 467th BG were based with their B24's. It's no more th= an a couple of miles from where I live. =20 Stamped on the bottom end of the casing are the letters S and L, together= with the number 4. I am guessing that perhaps the '4' refers to the year= of manufacture (1944) and that the letters refer to the factory where it= was manufactured. =20 Am I correct in my assumtions? I was hoping that there is an old amourer = out there who might be conversant with these matters and can enlighten me= further. Hope so. =20 Ray Cossey Honorary Member # Norwich, England ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C15FF4.FE655FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, I wo= uld agree the SL is St. Louis, but as for the 4, this is 44, during the w= ar a lot of corners were cut, I have seen it both ways with one and two d= igits, and the 3 and 5 were not for 1930 or 50. What do= es the bullet tip look like? Lance Burrell

<= /DIV>

----- Original Message -----

From: ray cosse= y

Sent: Sunday, October 28, = 2001 7:06 AM

To: 303rd Talk = Forum

Subject: [303rd-Talk] = 0.5 ammo markings

One of the many warti= me souvenirs I have at home is a 0.5 bullet, complete except, of course, = for the cordite (which I removed) and the percussion cap (which I fired!)= . I found it on the former 8th AF base at Rackheath, Norfolk, where the 4= 67th BG were based with their B24's. It's no more than a couple of miles = from where I live.

<= DIV>Stamped on the bottom end of the casing are the letter= s S and L, together with the num= ber 4. I am guessing that perhaps the '4' refers to the = year of manufacture (1944) and that the letters refer to the factory = ;where it was manufactured.

<= /DIV>

Am I correct in my assumtions? I was hoping tha= t there is an old amourer out there who might be conversant with these ma= tters and can enlighten me further. Hope so.

Ray Cossey

Honorary Member #

Norwich, England

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C15FF4.FE655FC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 12:45:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Hollifield) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] More Explanation Message-ID: <20011031124551.69243.qmail@web20607.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Jack, Thank you for your comments. However, please allow me to expand on what I mean by my earlier comments. It is in no way my intention or desire to "sell short" what my father or any of the vets of any service in WWII did. What I mean is that, we as humans are destined to be a part of the times in which we live. I believe that the situation during that time was grave and full of the despair of a world that was quickly being overrun by an oppresive dictator. And, while many Americans did volunteer, more were drafted or called to duty. They, however, met this duty with all the commitment that could ever be "expected or hoped for". I(we) are eternally greatful for all those who served, died, and provided our world today. That, for me, extends to my Grandfather in WWI, GGGF in the Civil War, and my fathers of the Revolution. Having said that, my point is, my father and his fellow WWII vets are but men. It is dangerous for us as society to elevate our praise beyond reality. No one "decides" to go become a hero (well may some dream it, but they usually get themselves killed). Heros are born of chance and opportunity where good ordinary people are thrust into extrodinary circumstances then perform unexplainable acts of selflessness. I do not believe that I am comparing "apples to oranges" for people are basically the same today as they were in the times of my father, GF, GGGF, and the founders of this country and before. I hope I haven't said too much. I love my dad, I am so thankful to have been raised by someone with his experiences. I have the greatest gratitude for he and all the vets who have served this country in any war. I temper that gratitude with the humility that I see in many of those that have been a part of combat and destruction. But please, don't read humility as weakness or unwillingness to engage in the necessary defense of the country. I would do as he did. I would do what is needed, or necessary, or what has to be done. And, I have to believe that the youth today have it within them to do the same. Maybe I'm wrong, if I am, I fear that the USA will pass on not long after my father's generation fades. No, I can't believe that, it has to be Apples and Apples forever. Thanks Jack, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 14:14:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:14:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Documentary about internees Message-ID: <3BDFA4D9.31028.15C8D1@localhost> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: mpsy@webtv.net (Marvin Shaw) Date sent: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:38:33 -0500 (EST) To: 303rd.talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Documentary about internees Mr. Favre: Your project sounds very interesting and I will do whatever I can to help, although I am not sure how much that will be. The day we came to Switzerland, I was flying as substitute navigator and did not know other crew members. I got to know the commisioned officers, but lost track of Long and Cassidy. Harold Carlman (copilot) died several years ago. I have an account of our escape that I prepared shortly after returning to England. It is several pages and I find sending long E-mail rather time-consuming. Since others are also interested, I will make a copy of the account and send it via the postal sevice. Good luck on your project. ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 13:34:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:34:07 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] barrage balloons Message-ID: <000001c16237$4219e080$5768db40@billowen> Thanks, Ray, for the comments about the balloons. Very interesting. I have wondered many times just how effective they might have been. I had never thought about the dive bombers but I can certainly see how the balloons would discourage those Stuka pilots......Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 16:21:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:21:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More Explanation Message-ID: Steve and all: Your comments about "heros" made me think of this poem, not sure where I got it, maybe here, but it is worth repeating. Don't envy a man his medals All those ribbons on his chest He did not try to get them They're not there at his request They were earned in stinking hell holes Where no man would like to go Or in cold and wintry places Where there's only ice and snow He did not know he earned them Till they were awarded at parade And they were bright when he first got them But in time the colors fade He was told he had to wear them And to wear them all with pride But when the memories come to haunt him Those same medals make him hide Cause those medals will not bring back All those guys he left behind And he would trade them all forever For a little peace of mind So don't envy a man his medals You don't want to take his place Thinking back to long gone battles And meeting dead friends face to face Kevin >From: Steve Hollifield >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] More Explanation >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:45:51 -0800 (PST) > >Hello Jack, >Thank you for your comments. However, please allow me >to expand on what I mean by my earlier comments. It >is in no way my intention or desire to "sell short" >what my father or any of the vets of any service in >WWII did. What I mean is that, we as humans are >destined to be a part of the times in which we live. >I believe that the situation during that time was >grave and full of the despair of a world that was >quickly being overrun by an oppresive dictator. And, >while many Americans did volunteer, more were drafted >or called to duty. They, however, met this duty with >all the commitment that could ever be "expected or >hoped for". I(we) are eternally greatful for all >those who served, died, and provided our world today. >That, for me, extends to my Grandfather in WWI, GGGF >in the Civil War, and my fathers of the Revolution. > >Having said that, my point is, my father and his >fellow WWII vets are but men. It is dangerous for us >as society to elevate our praise beyond reality. No >one "decides" to go become a hero (well may some dream >it, but they usually get themselves killed). Heros >are born of chance and opportunity where good ordinary >people are thrust into extrodinary circumstances then >perform unexplainable acts of selflessness. I do not >believe that I am comparing "apples to oranges" for >people are basically the same today as they were in >the times of my father, GF, GGGF, and the founders of >this country and before. > >I hope I haven't said too much. I love my dad, I am >so thankful to have been raised by someone with his >experiences. I have the greatest gratitude for he and >all the vets who have served this country in any war. >I temper that gratitude with the humility that I see >in many of those that have been a part of combat and >destruction. But please, don't read humility as >weakness or unwillingness to engage in the necessary >defense of the country. I would do as he did. I >would do what is needed, or necessary, or what has to >be done. And, I have to believe that the youth today >have it within them to do the same. Maybe I'm wrong, >if I am, I fear that the USA will pass on not long >after my father's generation fades. No, I can't >believe that, it has to be Apples and Apples forever. > >Thanks Jack, >Steve > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 14:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:21:53 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings References: Message-ID: <000201c1624e$5b44ef20$2524fd3e@o7b6a3> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C16217.638F7380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vondra Burrell The color of the tip of the 0.5 has long disappeared as a result of over = zealous cleaning by our lady cleaner. I seem to recall that it was = perhaps silver? Was there such a tip coloring? Regards Ray Cossey ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C16217.638F7380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vondra Burrell

The color of the tip of the 0.5 has long disappeared = as a=20 result of over zealous cleaning by our lady cleaner. I seem to recall = that it=20 was perhaps silver? Was there such a tip coloring?

Regards

Ray Cossey

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C16217.638F7380-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 21:02:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:02:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CLEANING RASS Message-ID: <000501c1624f$5e850980$3ebb9ace@mjpmtman> KEVIN---If the motor oil doesn't work try kerosene. [Don't ask for "paraffin" -- kersone is hard enough to find now days] I use baking soda for a polishing agent.. "Brasso" and most brass cleaners are quite abrasive. For more delicate brass and copper objects try Worcestershre sauce. [ I say ol' chap -- I am not "crackers" ]----MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Oct 31 23:56:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:56:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More Explanation Message-ID: <200110311956.AA211681394@etbyte.net> VERY WELL SAID!!! ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pearson" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:21:45 -0600 >Steve and all: Your comments about "heros" made me think of this poem, not >sure where I got it, maybe here, but it is worth repeating. > >Don't envy a man his medals >All those ribbons on his chest >He did not try to get them >They're not there at his request >They were earned in stinking hell holes >Where no man would like to go >Or in cold and wintry places >Where there's only ice and snow >He did not know he earned them >Till they were awarded at parade >And they were bright when he first got them >But in time the colors fade >He was told he had to wear them >And to wear them all with pride >But when the memories come to haunt him >Those same medals make him hide >Cause those medals will not bring back >All those guys he left behind >And he would trade them all forever >For a little peace of mind >So don't envy a man his medals >You don't want to take his place >Thinking back to long gone battles >And meeting dead friends face to face > >Kevin > > > > > > > > >>From: Steve Hollifield >>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >>Subject: [303rd-Talk] More Explanation >>Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:45:51 -0800 (PST) >> >>Hello Jack, >>Thank you for your comments. However, please allow me >>to expand on what I mean by my earlier comments. It >>is in no way my intention or desire to "sell short" >>what my father or any of the vets of any service in >>WWII did. What I mean is that, we as humans are >>destined to be a part of the times in which we live. >>I believe that the situation during that time was >>grave and full of the despair of a world that was >>quickly being overrun by an oppresive dictator. And, >>while many Americans did volunteer, more were drafted >>or called to duty. They, however, met this duty with >>all the commitment that could ever be "expected or >>hoped for". I(we) are eternally greatful for all >>those who served, died, and provided our world today. >>That, for me, extends to my Grandfather in WWI, GGGF >>in the Civil War, and my fathers of the Revolution. >> >>Having said that, my point is, my father and his >>fellow WWII vets are but men. It is dangerous for us >>as society to elevate our praise beyond reality. No >>one "decides" to go become a hero (well may some dream >>it, but they usually get themselves killed). Heros >>are born of chance and opportunity where good ordinary >>people are thrust into extrodinary circumstances then >>perform unexplainable acts of selflessness. I do not >>believe that I am comparing "apples to oranges" for >>people are basically the same today as they were in >>the times of my father, GF, GGGF, and the founders of >>this country and before. >> >>I hope I haven't said too much. I love my dad, I am >>so thankful to have been raised by someone with his >>experiences. I have the greatest gratitude for he and >>all the vets who have served this country in any war. >>I temper that gratitude with the humility that I see >>in many of those that have been a part of combat and >>destruction. But please, don't read humility as >>weakness or unwillingness to engage in the necessary >>defense of the country. I would do as he did. I >>would do what is needed, or necessary, or what has to >>be done. And, I have to believe that the youth today >>have it within them to do the same. Maybe I'm wrong, >>if I am, I fear that the USA will pass on not long >>after my father's generation fades. No, I can't >>believe that, it has to be Apples and Apples forever. >> >>Thanks Jack, >>Steve >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >>http://personals.yahoo.com >> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > >