Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings

I can't help you with the sequence question but at th= e
303rd B.G, 360th Sqd, the tracers were removed from the
belts ear= ly in 1945. Reason, their trajectory was not
true and to many were sig= hting with tracers and not
sights......Bill Runnels
> I understa= nd that ammo belts were arranged in a certain sequence. Such as,> the 5th round was a tracer. Based on the different bullet typ= es below, what
> was the normal sequence of rounds? Did it di= ffer by theater? That is, in
> the PTO the Japanese plane arm= or was possibly different than the German.
> Was there a difference= in how far each type could travel?
>
> Dave
>
><= BR>> -----Original Message-----
> From: VONDRA BURRELL [SMTP:lvb= url6@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 6:58 PM
> T= o: Bomb Group
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings
>=
> Ray, yes silver is armour piercing incendiary or API. = ; Black is AP,
> Blue is straight incendiary, red is tracer. There = is now a sliver and red
> which is APIT, I don't think it was aroun= d in WWII.   Lance
>
>
> ----- Original Messa= ge -----
> From: ray cossey
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 20= 01 4:04 PM
> To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
> Subject: Re: [303r= d-Talk] 0.5 ammo markings
>
> Vondra Burrell
>
> = The color of the tip of the 0.5 has long disappeared as a
> result = of over zealous cleaning by our lady cleaner. I seem to recall that
&g= t; it was perhaps silver? Was there such a tip coloring?
>> Regards
>
> Ray Cossey
>
>

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1631D.21F832C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 03:12:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:12:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: --part1_a4.1b95f89c.29136915_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry guys, I forgot to give you Merlin Miller's email address. It's merlinmiller@yahoo.com. Terry Lucas --part1_a4.1b95f89c.29136915_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Sorry guys, I forgot to give you Merlin Miller's email address. It's merlinmiller@yahoo.com.
Terry Lucas --part1_a4.1b95f89c.29136915_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 14:24:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:24:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: B-17 Web Site... Message-ID: <000901c163aa$1f515aa0$5568db40@billowen> Subject: B-17 Web Site > http://www.ratol.fi/~tmannine/b-17/ > > > Saw this site of B-17 info and thought I would pass it on to you.... Best wishes, Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 16:14:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:14:48 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang Message-ID: Just found this tucked away on in my computer. I'd forgotten all about it.SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft Bale out To take to one's parachute Bind, A People who obstruct one Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair Bogus Sham, spurious Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" Brolly Parachute Browned off, To be "Fed up" Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings Bus driver A bomber pilot Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" Completely Cheesed No hope at all Cope To accomplish, to deal with Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft Dog fight Aerial scrap Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything Drink, In the To come down into the sea Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly Duff gen Dud information Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft Erk, An A beginner in any job Fan The propeller Flak Anti-aircraft fire Flap A disturbance, general excitement Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever George The automatic pilot Get Cracking Get going Gong, To collect a To get a medal Greenhouse Cockpit cover Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to hop over the hedges Hurryback A Hurricane fighter Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of aircraft Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy fishing fleets in the North and Irish Seas Kite An aeroplane Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, inflated if wearer falls into sea Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing Office Cockpit of aircraft Organize To "win" a wanted article Pack up Cease to function Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy Play pussy Hide in the clouds Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target Pukka gen Accurate information Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire Quickie Short for above Rang the bell Got good results Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey Landing", "A ropey type", "A ropey evening", etc Screamed downhill Executed a power dive Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's own prowess Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand Snake about Operational aerobatics Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft spinning out of control into the ground Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons Flying slowly over an area Patrolling Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to ground training Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or rear aircraft of a formation Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready Touch bottom Crash Toys A great deal of training equipment is termed toys Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into battle Type Classification - usually referring to people Good, Bad, Ropey, Poor type View RAF personnel always take a "view" of things Good view, Poor view, Dim view, Long distance view, Lean view, Outside view, "Ropey" view Wizard Really first class, superlative, attractive, ingenious _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 17:51:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:51:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: <3BE2DD29.86DE7F1@qwest.net> Hi all- Re the current discussions on cold weather flying, I have a question or two. As usual, I'm particularly interested in the conditions in the 8AF B-17s in early '43, but all input is helpful and welcome. I know the waist gunners were decked out in as much protective gear as possible (B-10 suits, gloves or mittens, winter boots, B-2 caps, electric suits, etc.). How much of this gear was worn by other crewmembers? I suspect the tail gunner was pretty well decked out, but how about the BTG and RO? Was there enough heat in the radio room to offer any help? Would all that gear fit into the ball turret? Was there any heat in the BT? On the flight deck and in the nose compartment, similar question. Were those areas well enough heated to allow lighter clothing? It seems to me that in most photos, the five guys in front are less heavily dressed than their comrades from the rear of the plane. Were the A-2 and B-3 jackets with unheated long johns and flight boots sufficient in the forward areas? Did the front-end guys ever wear the electric F-1 "bunny suits" or shearling trousers? Thanks for your input. Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 19:52:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:52:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang References: Message-ID: <3BE2F995.C403F413@attglobal.net> KP ... Do not forget the phrase ... "Bob's your Uncle." Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Just found this tucked away on in my computer. I'd forgotten all about > it.SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG > > Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft > Bale out To take to one's parachute > Bind, A People who obstruct one > Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" > Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft > Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair > Bogus Sham, spurious > Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids > Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" > Brolly Parachute > Browned off, To be "Fed up" > Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings > Bus driver A bomber pilot > Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" > Completely Cheesed No hope at all > Cope To accomplish, to deal with > Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water > Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft > Dog fight Aerial scrap > Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything > Drink, In the To come down into the sea > Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly > Duff gen Dud information > Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft > Erk, An A beginner in any job > Fan The propeller > Flak Anti-aircraft fire > Flap A disturbance, general excitement > Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning > Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever > George The automatic pilot > Get Cracking Get going > Gong, To collect a To get a medal > Greenhouse Cockpit cover > Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to > hop over the hedges > Hurryback A Hurricane fighter > Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of > aircraft > Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy > fishing fleets in the North and Irish Seas > Kite An aeroplane > Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies > Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, inflated if > wearer falls into sea > Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism > Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing > Office Cockpit of aircraft > Organize To "win" a wanted article > Pack up Cease to function > Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy > Play pussy Hide in the clouds > Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon > Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target > Pukka gen Accurate information > Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft > Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire > Quickie Short for above > Rang the bell Got good results > Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs > Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey > Landing", "A ropey type", "A ropey > evening", etc > Screamed downhill Executed a power dive > Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's > own prowess > Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand > Snake about Operational aerobatics > Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft > spinning out of control into the ground > Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station > Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant > Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons Flying > slowly over an area Patrolling > Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to ground > training > Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or > rear aircraft of a formation > Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg > Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready > Touch bottom Crash > Toys A great deal of training equipment is > termed toys > Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into battle > Type Classification - usually referring to > people Good, Bad, Ropey, Poor type > View RAF personnel always take a "view" of > things Good view, Poor view, Dim view, Long > distance view, Lean view, Outside > view, "Ropey" view > Wizard Really first class, superlative, attractive, > ingenious > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 20:19:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:19:35 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: <20011102201936.ONMU11294.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Mike, for all practical purposes there was no heat in the B-17. I seem to recall that the flight deck received a little from the #3 engine. We all wore the electrical heated suites, gloves etc. The nose thermometer would register as low as -65 C. Frost bite and loss of oxygen were top concerns on a mission. At altitude we completed an oxygen check every few minutes.with each crew member. Bill Runnels, bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 2 22:22:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:22:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: <32.1d439eb1.2914768e@aol.com> yup!!! bill you are a survivor of those checks. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 3 20:25:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:25:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: <0.10005332.645034485-738719082-1004726358@topica.com> <000e01c163f0$9501ab60$bb790918@phnx3.az.home.com> Message-ID: <3BE452D5.A1BE72EC@qwest.net> Hi Jim and Bills- Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are very helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I took this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb bay doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes and experience how cold it could get for themselves. I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while all the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as they could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the tradeoff between warmth and mobility. Thanks again for your help, Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 3 21:06:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: <0.10005332.645034485-738719082-1004726358@topica.com> <000e01c163f0$9501ab60$bb790918@phnx3.az.home.com> <3BE452D5.A1BE72EC@qwest.net> Message-ID: <3BE45C6B.5636AB94@attglobal.net> Mike ... et al ... The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various "non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist windows where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the radio room from whence the radio gunner operated. The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of production was quite of the essence. Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for the position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. We were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of the concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly understood what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... we have not won one since! This should tell us something. Cheers! WCH Mike McClanahan wrote: > Hi Jim and Bills- > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are very > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I took > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb bay > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes and > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while all > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as they > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > Thanks again for your help, > > Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 3 21:37:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:37:53 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang Message-ID: BH: What does "Bob's your uncle" mean? Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang >Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:52:53 -0800 > >KP ... > >Do not forget the phrase ... "Bob's your Uncle." > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Just found this tucked away on in my computer. I'd forgotten all about > > it.SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG > > > > Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft > > Bale out To take to one's parachute > > Bind, A People who obstruct one > > Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" > > Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft > > Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair > > Bogus Sham, spurious > > Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids > > Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" > > Brolly Parachute > > Browned off, To be "Fed up" > > Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings > > Bus driver A bomber pilot > > Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" > > Completely Cheesed No hope at all > > Cope To accomplish, to deal with > > Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water > > Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft > > Dog fight Aerial scrap > > Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything > > Drink, In the To come down into the sea > > Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly > > Duff gen Dud information > > Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft > > Erk, An A beginner in any job > > Fan The propeller > > Flak Anti-aircraft fire > > Flap A disturbance, general excitement > > Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning > > Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever > > George The automatic pilot > > Get Cracking Get going > > Gong, To collect a To get a medal > > Greenhouse Cockpit cover > > Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to > > hop over the hedges > > Hurryback A Hurricane fighter > > Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of > > aircraft > > Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy > > fishing fleets in the >North and Irish Seas > > Kite An aeroplane > > Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies > > Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, >inflated if > > wearer falls into sea > > Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism > > Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing > > Office Cockpit of aircraft > > Organize To "win" a wanted article > > Pack up Cease to function > > Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy > > Play pussy Hide in the clouds > > Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon > > Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target > > Pukka gen Accurate information > > Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft > > Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire > > Quickie Short for above > > Rang the bell Got good results > > Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs > > Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey > > Landing", "A ropey >type", "A ropey > > evening", etc > > Screamed downhill Executed a power dive > > Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's > > own prowess > > Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand > > Snake about Operational aerobatics > > Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft > > spinning out of control >into the ground > > Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station > > Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant > > Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons >Flying > > slowly over an area >Patrolling > > Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to >ground > > training > > Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or > > rear aircraft of a >formation > > Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg > > Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready > > Touch bottom Crash > > Toys A great deal of training equipment is > > termed toys > > Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into >battle > > Type Classification - usually referring to > > people Good, Bad, Ropey, >Poor type > > View RAF personnel always take a "view" of > > things Good view, Poor >view, Dim view, Long > > distance view, Lean >view, Outside > > view, "Ropey" view > > Wizard Really first class, superlative, >attractive, > > ingenious > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 3 21:45:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:45:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his B-17G, s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and several other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. He was in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds were, I don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at altitude. But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster and kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other thing I can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and copilot are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in flight, even if it's in a bad movie.) Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > >Mike ... et al ... > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist windows >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the radio >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of production >was quite of the essence. > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for the >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. We >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of the >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly understood >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... we >have not won one since! > >This should tell us something. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are very > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I took > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb bay > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes and > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while all > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as they > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > Mike McClanahan > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 3 23:54:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <000501c164c2$dc248b20$3af833cf@richards> Hi Kevin: You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my Kids in Prescott Az. . The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because the heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the heat to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire danger from the Ethylene Glycol. As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. I was in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had enough. There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting forces at Try it out. Good Luck Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his B-17G, > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and several > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. He was > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds were, I > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at altitude. > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster and > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other thing I > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and copilot > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in flight, even > if it's in a bad movie.) > Kevin > > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist windows > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the radio > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of production > >was quite of the essence. > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for the > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. We > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of the > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly understood > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... we > >have not won one since! > > > >This should tell us something. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are very > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I took > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb bay > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes and > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while all > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as they > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 4 00:13:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:13:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: <78.1d263c34.2915e210@aol.com> --part1_78.1d263c34.2915e210_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to your question about heat in the B17 I was a pilot in the 358 and flew 28 missions and I dont remember any heat in the cockpit but we did have heated suits. And I wore my "crush" all the time to let the earphones do their work. My co-pilot put his suit on and got in the plane to await start time and turned the suit up to 10 and took a "short "nap and came up clawing for dear life - he never wore the electric suit again - only sheepskin! I still get a laugh out of that! Clyde Henning Pilot. --part1_78.1d263c34.2915e210_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to your question about heat in the B17 I was a pilot in the 358 and flew 28 missions and I dont remember any heat in the cockpit but we did have heated suits. And I wore my "crush" all the time to let the earphones do their work. My co-pilot put his suit on and got in the plane to await start time and turned the suit up to 10 and took a "short "nap and came up clawing for dear life - he never wore the electric suit again - only sheepskin! I still get a laugh out of that!
                   Clyde Henning   Pilot. --part1_78.1d263c34.2915e210_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 4 09:21:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 01:21:51 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang References: Message-ID: <3BE508AF.414316C@attglobal.net> Kevin ... It is a phrase much like "And everything's okay" .... For example a Brit might say, "When you go into the breakfast room you'll see your table laid on immediately to your right. Sit down and wait for your waiter and Bob's your Uncle. When he says "Bob's your Uncle" he means "and then everything's okay" or a thought to that effect. It's a funny phrase, but I learned to UNDERSTAND it AND use it. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > BH: What does "Bob's your uncle" mean? Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang > >Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:52:53 -0800 > > > >KP ... > > > >Do not forget the phrase ... "Bob's your Uncle." > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Just found this tucked away on in my computer. I'd forgotten all about > > > it.SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG > > > > > > Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft > > > Bale out To take to one's parachute > > > Bind, A People who obstruct one > > > Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" > > > Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft > > > Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair > > > Bogus Sham, spurious > > > Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids > > > Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" > > > Brolly Parachute > > > Browned off, To be "Fed up" > > > Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings > > > Bus driver A bomber pilot > > > Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" > > > Completely Cheesed No hope at all > > > Cope To accomplish, to deal with > > > Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water > > > Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft > > > Dog fight Aerial scrap > > > Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything > > > Drink, In the To come down into the sea > > > Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly > > > Duff gen Dud information > > > Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft > > > Erk, An A beginner in any job > > > Fan The propeller > > > Flak Anti-aircraft fire > > > Flap A disturbance, general excitement > > > Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning > > > Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever > > > George The automatic pilot > > > Get Cracking Get going > > > Gong, To collect a To get a medal > > > Greenhouse Cockpit cover > > > Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to > > > hop over the hedges > > > Hurryback A Hurricane fighter > > > Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of > > > aircraft > > > Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy > > > fishing fleets in the > >North and Irish Seas > > > Kite An aeroplane > > > Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies > > > Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, > >inflated if > > > wearer falls into sea > > > Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism > > > Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing > > > Office Cockpit of aircraft > > > Organize To "win" a wanted article > > > Pack up Cease to function > > > Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy > > > Play pussy Hide in the clouds > > > Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon > > > Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target > > > Pukka gen Accurate information > > > Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft > > > Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire > > > Quickie Short for above > > > Rang the bell Got good results > > > Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs > > > Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey > > > Landing", "A ropey > >type", "A ropey > > > evening", etc > > > Screamed downhill Executed a power dive > > > Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's > > > own prowess > > > Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand > > > Snake about Operational aerobatics > > > Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft > > > spinning out of control > >into the ground > > > Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station > > > Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant > > > Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons > >Flying > > > slowly over an area > >Patrolling > > > Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to > >ground > > > training > > > Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or > > > rear aircraft of a > >formation > > > Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg > > > Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready > > > Touch bottom Crash > > > Toys A great deal of training equipment is > > > termed toys > > > Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into > >battle > > > Type Classification - usually referring to > > > people Good, Bad, Ropey, > >Poor type > > > View RAF personnel always take a "view" of > > > things Good view, Poor > >view, Dim view, Long > > > distance view, Lean > >view, Outside > > > view, "Ropey" view > > > Wizard Really first class, superlative, > >attractive, > > > ingenious > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 5 14:23:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:23:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped all over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very detailed response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was so high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. What are the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed with water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would doubt it, but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > >Hi Kevin: > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my Kids in >Prescott Az. . > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because the >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the heat >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire danger >from the Ethylene Glycol. > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. I >was >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had enough. >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting forces >at Try it out. > Good Luck Spider Smith >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his >B-17G, > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and several > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. He >was > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds were, >I > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at >altitude. > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster >and > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other >thing >I > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and >copilot > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in flight, >even > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist >windows > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the >radio > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of >production > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for >the > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. >We > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of >the > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly >understood > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... >we > > >have not won one since! > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >WCH > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are >very > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I >took > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb >bay > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes >and > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while >all > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as >they > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 5 16:26:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:26:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Staying in touch with the rest of the world Message-ID: Hi list! After yesterdays stunning wins by the BEARS and the D-backs, I got to wondering. How did you stay in touch with what was going on in the rest of the world? How did you get home front news or know what was happening in the other theaters of op? I know that there were the two military publications, Yank and Stars and Stripes. But did everyone get them? How old was the news by the time you heard about it? Thanks! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 5 22:08:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:08:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >...... Question: I got jumped all > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very detailed > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was so > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. What are > the thoughts of this group? I think that this topic came up once before, and I think that one aspect was that there are at least 2 different types of hydraulic fluid used in aircraft, which have greatly different properties. However as part of my job, I used to perform field tests of items exposed to a variety of "typical" smokes that might be encountered in military situations, and one of the smokes was burning hydraulic fluid. To generate the smoke, we would pour out a pint or so of army issue hydraulic fluid into a big metal pan, similar to the lid of a trash can. We would then try to ignite it with a propane torch. It would burn, but it would generally require heating the edge of the puddle, where the metal meets the liquid, for often up to 5 minutes before it would catch fire, and then, it was about as vigorous as a candle. At 40 below temperatures, I don't think it would be very hazardous, but then they may have used a different formulation back then. And since ethylene glycol must be mixed with > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would doubt it, > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > Kevin > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > >Hi Kevin: > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my Kids in > >Prescott Az. . > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because the > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the heat > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire danger > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. I > >was > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had enough. > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting forces > >at Try it out. > > Good Luck Spider Smith > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > >B-17G, > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and several > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. He > >was > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds were, > >I > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > >altitude. > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster > >and > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other > >thing > >I > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > >copilot > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in flight, > >even > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist > >windows > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the > >radio > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > >production > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for > >the > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. > >We > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of > >the > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > >understood > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... > >we > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are > >very > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I > >took > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb > >bay > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes > >and > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while > >all > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as > >they > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 5 22:13:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:13:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <000801c16647$25cd3080$4df833cf@richards> Kevin: I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for disabling the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were told. As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot spots because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire trap anyway . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the same target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters because they would go after the boxes. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped all > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very detailed > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was so > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. What are > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed with > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would doubt it, > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > Kevin > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > >Hi Kevin: > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my Kids in > >Prescott Az. . > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because the > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the heat > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire danger > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. I > >was > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had enough. > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting forces > >at Try it out. > > Good Luck Spider Smith > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > >B-17G, > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and several > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. He > >was > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds were, > >I > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > >altitude. > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster > >and > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other > >thing > >I > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > >copilot > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in flight, > >even > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other various > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist > >windows > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the > >radio > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > >production > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for > >the > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a concern. > >We > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of > >the > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > >understood > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... > >we > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are > >very > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight I > >took > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb > >bay > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done to > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the planes > >and > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while > >all > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, the > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of variability. > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while others, > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as > >they > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for the > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 00:53:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: <000801c16647$25cd3080$4df833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3BE73474.E0AA72BD@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and other problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the B24, the box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard they would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, of which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years and worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew ... to a man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack AND down. Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... this was war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even from the fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We were NOT ON A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you fellows have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war since ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our B17s, WHY would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as pertains to any comfort? We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and mourned our losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of the concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... Cheers! WCH Dick Smith wrote: > Kevin: > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for disabling > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were told. > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot spots > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire trap anyway > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the same > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters because > they would go after the boxes. > > Spider > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped all > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very detailed > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was so > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. What > are > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed with > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would doubt > it, > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my Kids > in > > >Prescott Az. . > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because the > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the > heat > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire > danger > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. I > > >was > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had > enough. > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting > forces > > >at Try it out. > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > > >B-17G, > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and > several > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. > He > > >was > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds > were, > > >I > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > > >altitude. > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little faster > > >and > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other > > >thing > > >I > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > > >copilot > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in > flight, > > >even > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other > various > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist > > >windows > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the > > >radio > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > > >production > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed for > > >the > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a > concern. > > >We > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some of > > >the > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > > >understood > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! .... > > >we > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments are > > >very > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 flight > I > > >took > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the bomb > > >bay > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done > to > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the > planes > > >and > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that while > > >all > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, > the > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > variability. > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while > others, > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much as > > >they > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for > the > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 05:21:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:21:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Very well said Bill Heller and you too Spider, except I wore and used my electric heated suit, shoes and gloves. If they shorted out which they did once or twice I shut them off QUICK. Even damn quick. I didn't know the bomb bay doors didn't fit well. Didn't spend much time back there. I wore enough cloths, I didn't freeze without the heated blanket suit. Our missions were rarely over 10 or 12 hours and I could be a bit cold for that long. As I think about it. If the bomb bay door didn't fit tight when closed the air would not come in, It would go out. I think some Frenchman or Italian named Bearnewly or Vernturi invented this, but he probably didn't get a patient on it in time to keep us poor sissy air crews warm. Damn, double damn. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 14:32:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 08:32:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Dick: Perhaps this topic did come up before and I didn't see it. Could you please tell me more about your testing. Why were you doing these smoke drills? Where you testing gas masks? Where did you perform these tests, US or ETO? I am overwhelmed when I think of all the science created during the war, from microwave ovens and radar, to synthetics like plastics and rubber. What a remarkable time in history! Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:08:46 -0500 > > > >...... Question: I got jumped all > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very detailed > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was >so > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. What >are > > the thoughts of this group? > >I think that this topic came up once before, and I think that one >aspect was that there are at least 2 different types of hydraulic fluid >used in aircraft, which have greatly different properties. However as >part of my job, I used to perform field tests of items exposed to a >variety of "typical" smokes that might be encountered in military >situations, and one of the smokes was burning hydraulic fluid. To >generate the smoke, we would pour out a pint or so of army issue >hydraulic fluid into a big metal pan, similar to the lid of a trash can. >We would then try to ignite it with a propane torch. It would burn, >but it would generally require heating the edge of the puddle, where >the metal meets the liquid, for often up to 5 minutes before it would >catch fire, and then, it was about as vigorous as a candle. At 40 >below temperatures, I don't think it would be very hazardous, but >then they may have used a different formulation back then. > > > >And since ethylene glycol must be mixed with > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would doubt >it, > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my >Kids in > > >Prescott Az. . > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because >the > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the >heat > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire >danger > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on Missions. >I > > >was > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had >enough. > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting >forces > > >at Try it out. > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > > >B-17G, > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and >several > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his A-2. > He > > >was > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds >were, > > >I > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > > >altitude. > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little >faster > > >and > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The other > > >thing > > >I > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > > >copilot > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. Incredible! > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in >flight, > > >even > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other >various > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the waist > > >windows > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of the > > >radio > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > > >production > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed >for > > >the > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a >concern. > > >We > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some >of > > >the > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > > >understood > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! >.... > > >we > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments >are > > >very > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 >flight I > > >took > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the >bomb > > >bay > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't done >to > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the >planes > > >and > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that >while > > >all > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they could, >the > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of >variability. > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while >others, > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much >as > > >they > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance for >the > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 14:49:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 08:49:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never thought your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an instrument of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the bulkhead. And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was not to be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s flew faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because they could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked about the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and B-24s? I know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded of your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible to describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the 17, must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the tail had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys for helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are walking treasure chests of information. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > >Kevin ... > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and other >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the B24, >the >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard >they >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, of >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years and >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew ... to >a >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack AND >down. > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... this >was >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even from >the >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We were >NOT ON >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you >fellows >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war >since >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our B17s, >WHY >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as pertains to >any >comfort? > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and mourned >our >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of the >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > Kevin: > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for >disabling > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were >told. > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot >spots > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire trap >anyway > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the >same > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters >because > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > Spider > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped >all > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very >detailed > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was >so > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. >What > > are > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed >with > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would >doubt > > it, > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my >Kids > > in > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because >the > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the > > heat > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire > > danger > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on >Missions. I > > > >was > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had > > enough. > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting > > forces > > > >at Try it out. > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > > > >B-17G, > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and > > several > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his >A-2. > > He > > > >was > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds > > were, > > > >I > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > > > >altitude. > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little >faster > > > >and > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The >other > > > >thing > > > >I > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > > > >copilot > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. >Incredible! > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in > > flight, > > > >even > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other > > various > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the >waist > > > >windows > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of >the > > > >radio > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > > > >production > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed >for > > > >the > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a > > concern. > > > >We > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some >of > > > >the > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > > > >understood > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! >.... > > > >we > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments >are > > > >very > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 >flight > > I > > > >took > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the >bomb > > > >bay > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't >done > > to > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the > > planes > > > >and > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that >while > > > >all > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they >could, > > the > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > variability. > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while > > others, > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much >as > > > >they > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance >for > > the > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 19:22:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:22:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: Here is a question I have been thinking about for the last couple of weeks. How does a pilot take into account the rotation of the Earth into time, speed and distance equations. On a 12 hour flight from Tokyo heading East at 500 mph, certainly the rotation of the Earth would have an impact on ETA. I am a pilot and took several classes on navigation, but for a puddle jumper pilot, this never came up. Bill Heller, can you help me with this. Maybe the Earth is turning so slowly that it makes no difference, but I'd like to know from a pro. Thanks, guys! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 20:12:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:12:05 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <3BE84414.8283B9F8@attglobal.net> Kevin ... The B24 could not fly as fast as it was able because it was part of a strike force ... and therefore had to stay at the speed of all attacking force. The B24 was a far more HUGE target and thus the Luftwaffe liked that. The B24 was weaker in the wing root area ... or so it certainly appeared when I saw it being attacked at that spot. The wing would merely fold right up, and down would go the B24! My Luftwaffe friends admitted to me that they attacked the B24 in THIS area due to its known weakness. Once, after I had been shot out of a formation over Norway ... and I was making my way for the North Sea and to get down on the deck and go home ... I watched, over Stavanger, a B24 being ferociously attacked by a Ju88 (twin). The bullets were streaming from the Ju88 RIGHT INTO THE WING ROOT AREA and all of a sudden the B24 wing folded up and DOWN he went. In pieces. No one got out. And then, the Ju88 completely ignored me and went away. I made it to the North Sea and went down on the deck and a lone FW190 saw me and attacked. However, we were then at 1000 feet and when the FW190 made his famous head-on attack and split essed, HE SPLIT ESSED RIGHT DOWN INTO THE SEA! Kerplunk! That was the famous "rote" problem we were told the enemy had ....., he was trained to do a split ess after a headon attack ..... uh huh! ... Duh! HE WAS AT 1000 feet! I have long felt that the B24 was in the ETO due to "politics" .... The B17, known as the Flying Fortress was getting so much publicity that I am almost sure "someone" in Washington said, "We'd better get some B24s over there or Consolidated will get angry.... " That is only an idea of mine, but as I know the government, it sounds logical. The B17 was a sleek ariplane and built like a brick shit house. It made less than HALF the target a B24 made ....the B24 was a fine airplane for the Pacific and long distance flying, especially with that Davis wing, but it could not fly as high as could we in the 17 nor as close formation due to its very bulk. In sports as in war, people become very attached to this or that ... it was the same with the B24 fellows. They had every right to love their airplane, but it was NOT the plane for the job that the B17 was. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never thought > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an instrument > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the bulkhead. > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was not to > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s flew > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because they > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked about > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and B-24s? I > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded of > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible to > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the 17, > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the tail > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys for > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > walking treasure chests of information. > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and other > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the B24, > >the > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > >they > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, of > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years and > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew ... to > >a > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack AND > >down. > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... this > >was > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even from > >the > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We were > >NOT ON > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > >fellows > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > >since > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our B17s, > >WHY > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as pertains to > >any > >comfort? > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and mourned > >our > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of the > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > Kevin: > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > >disabling > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > >told. > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > >spots > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire trap > >anyway > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > >same > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > >because > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped > >all > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > >detailed > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was > >so > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > >What > > > are > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed > >with > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > >doubt > > > it, > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my > >Kids > > > in > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because > >the > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the > > > heat > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire > > > danger > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > >Missions. I > > > > >was > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had > > > enough. > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting > > > forces > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and > > > several > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his > >A-2. > > > He > > > > >was > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds > > > were, > > > > >I > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > >faster > > > > >and > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > >other > > > > >thing > > > > >I > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > > > > >copilot > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > >Incredible! > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in > > > flight, > > > > >even > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other > > > various > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > >waist > > > > >windows > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of > >the > > > > >radio > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > > > > >production > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed > >for > > > > >the > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a > > > concern. > > > > >We > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some > >of > > > > >the > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > > > > >understood > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! > >.... > > > > >we > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments > >are > > > > >very > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > >flight > > > I > > > > >took > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the > >bomb > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't > >done > > > to > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the > > > planes > > > > >and > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that > >while > > > > >all > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > >could, > > > the > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > variability. > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while > > > others, > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much > >as > > > > >they > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance > >for > > > the > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 20:19:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:19:32 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question References: Message-ID: <3BE845D4.2686DFD6@attglobal.net> Kevin ... If what you say about the rotation of the earth is true, then we would have different ETA's when going the OTHER direction. We are flying through the AIR. We fly through that air at a certain speed, no matter which direction we are going. Even North and South. Think of it this way, Kevin ... if you were riding in a train and your suitcase was in the overhead rack above your seat ... then WHY, if it became dislodged, did it not fall on the seat BEHIND you, since the train is going so fast? Reminds me of the airline pilot, taking off from a spot in India near the Taj Mahl, who lost an engine on takeoff and thought he might crash into the Taj Mahal. Realizing he had a cargo of birds in cages, he shot off his pistol toward the cabin, thus scaring the birds so they ALL TOOK WING. This, then, made his load that much lighter while they took wing, and voila, he missed the Taj .... I believe it will take a Space Scientist who handled the Moon shots and other shots ... to answer your query why an airplane might fly quicker going against the earth rotation than if he were flying WITH the direction of rotation. I cannot. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Here is a question I have been thinking about for the last couple of weeks. > How does a pilot take into account the rotation of the Earth into time, > speed and distance equations. On a 12 hour flight from Tokyo heading East > at 500 mph, certainly the rotation of the Earth would have an impact on ETA. > > I am a pilot and took several classes on navigation, but for a puddle jumper > pilot, this never came up. Bill Heller, can you help me with this. Maybe > the Earth is turning so slowly that it makes no difference, but I'd like to > know from a pro. > > Thanks, guys! > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 20:27:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:27:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A656@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Kevin, By George... I think I've got it! Alo, Mates! So there I was in the Office of my Hurryback, I had just finished some Bumps and Circuits over the field and thought I'd Get Cracking to see if I could Collect A Gong today! So I cranked up the Fan in my Kite and headed for the coast... Sure enough as I was Crabbing along I spotting a Jerry 109 Stooging About above me, I didn't want to make A Black of this and let the bugger Jink Away so I climbed up and played Pussy With Him. But as I was Screaming Downhill into the Dog Fight, his wingman, who I missed in the glare off my Greenhouse was suddenly on my tail feathers.... This chap was no Erk, or Bus Driver! Now I am not Shooting A Line here....As I started to Plug Away at the first Jerry I heard a loud Pleep and smoke began to pour into the Pulpit, I knew my engine would Pack Up soon!!! I figured just one more Squirt before I had to peel off.... But it was too late, I was heading for the drink! I checked my Mae West and Bailed out, sitting under my Brolly all I could think about was the Blond Job I had a Pint with last night, she thought I was a real Wizard! But my luck, I was Shot Down In Flames at the Pub too!! looks like my Stationmaster will have my rings!! It's the Dustbin in a Lank for me :( P.O. T. Hollritt 102 (much) SQ. RAF SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft Bale out To take to one's parachute Bind, A People who obstruct one Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" Blitz, A solid lump of Large formation of enemy aircraft Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair Bogus Sham, spurious Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet raids Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" Brolly Parachute Browned off, To be "Fed up" Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings Bus driver A bomber pilot Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" Completely Cheesed No hope at all Cope To accomplish, to deal with Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft Dog fight Aerial scrap Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything Drink, In the To come down into the sea Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly Duff gen Dud information Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in aircraft Erk, An A beginner in any job Fan The propeller Flak Anti-aircraft fire Flap A disturbance, general excitement Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever George The automatic pilot Get Cracking Get going Gong, To collect a To get a medal Greenhouse Cockpit cover Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to hop over the hedges Hurryback A Hurricane fighter Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of aircraft Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy fishing fleets in the North and Irish Seas Kite An aeroplane Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, inflated if wearer falls into sea Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing Office Cockpit of aircraft Organize To "win" a wanted article Pack up Cease to function Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy Play pussy Hide in the clouds Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note klaxon Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target Pukka gen Accurate information Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire Quickie Short for above Rang the bell Got good results Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey Landing", "A ropey type", "A ropey evening", etc Screamed downhill Executed a power dive Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's own prowess Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand Snake about Operational aerobatics Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft spinning out of control into the ground Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons Flying slowly over an area Patrolling Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to ground training Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or rear aircraft of a formation Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready Touch bottom Crash Toys A great deal of training equipment is termed toys Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron into battle Type Classification - usually referring to people Good, Bad, Ropey, Poor type View RAF personnel always take a "view" of things Good view, Poor view, Dim view, Long distance view, Lean view, Outside view, "Ropey" view Wizard Really first class, superlative, attractive, ingenious From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 22:38:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:38:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <000f01c16713$cfedeb00$69f833cf@richards> Hi Jack I never wore an electric suit but a crewchief gave me a bombsight electric heater bag which fit my feet just great. As the B17 was an aileron airplane I never used the rudders except on the ground. Kept my feet warm. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > Very well said Bill Heller and you too Spider, except I wore and used my > electric heated suit, shoes and gloves. If they shorted out which they did > once or twice I shut them off QUICK. Even damn quick. I didn't know the bomb > bay doors didn't fit well. Didn't spend much time back there. I wore enough > cloths, I didn't freeze without the heated blanket suit. Our missions were > rarely over 10 or 12 hours and I could be a bit cold for that long. As I > think about it. If the bomb bay door didn't fit tight when closed the air > would not come in, It would go out. I think some Frenchman or Italian named > Bearnewly or Vernturi invented this, but he probably didn't get a patient on > it in time to keep us poor sissy air crews warm. Damn, double damn. > Best Wishes, > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 22:48:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:48:28 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <001701c16715$2b58d260$69f833cf@richards> Kevin: I'm not Bill but after the war I became an Engineering Officer. The B24 had a fuel manifold in the wing which was a large pipe about 12 inches all the tanks emptied into this manifold and all the engines were fed from it, IT WAS NOT SELF SEALED and was the cause of many of the burning wing photos we see in combat pictures. Why did the get rid of all the B24s if they were any good. Spider- ---- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:49 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never thought > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an instrument > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the bulkhead. > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was not to > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s flew > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because they > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked about > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and B-24s? I > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded of > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible to > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the 17, > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the tail > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys for > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > walking treasure chests of information. > Kevin > > > > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and other > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the B24, > >the > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > >they > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, of > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years and > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew ... to > >a > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack AND > >down. > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... this > >was > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even from > >the > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We were > >NOT ON > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > >fellows > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > >since > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our B17s, > >WHY > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as pertains to > >any > >comfort? > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and mourned > >our > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of the > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > Kevin: > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > >disabling > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > >told. > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > >spots > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire trap > >anyway > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > >same > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > >because > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got jumped > >all > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone to > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many flight > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > >detailed > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid was > >so > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > >What > > > are > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be mixed > >with > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > >doubt > > > it, > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing my > >Kids > > > in > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit because > >the > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer the > > > heat > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the fire > > > danger > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > >Missions. I > > > > >was > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we had > > > enough. > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the scouting > > > forces > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in his > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, and > > > several > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only his > >A-2. > > > He > > > > >was > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old birds > > > were, > > > > >I > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially at > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > >faster > > > > >and > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > >other > > > > >thing > > > > >I > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot and > > > > >copilot > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > >Incredible! > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses in > > > flight, > > > > >even > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and other > > > various > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > >waist > > > > >windows > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof of > >the > > > > >radio > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed of > > > > >production > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you dressed > >for > > > > >the > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not a > > > concern. > > > > >We > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. Some > >of > > > > >the > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people truly > > > > >understood > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON ! > >.... > > > > >we > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your comments > >are > > > > >very > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > >flight > > > I > > > > >took > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around the > >bomb > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something wasn't > >done > > > to > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in the > > > planes > > > > >and > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems that > >while > > > > >all > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > >could, > > > the > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > variability. > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough while > > > others, > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as much > >as > > > > >they > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of tolerance > >for > > > the > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 6 23:41:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:41:46 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Jack & Dave Message-ID: <000501c1671c$99d4f460$59bb9ace@mjpmtman> J. Prencher wrote-------------I wore and used my > electric heated suit, shoes and gloves. If they shorted out which they did > once or twice I shut them off QUICK. Even damn quick. ....... I wore enough > cloths, I didn't freeze without the heated blanket suit. Which one of the suits gave you the most trouble. The "blue bunny underwear" with the high collar B-2 sheep-skin jacket and pants or the later F-2 & the interchangeable F-3 suit.. If memory serves me correctly the latter appeared to be filled and quilted dark green color. Presumably they had rectified some of the faults of the B-2s. You people might not have used the electric heat BUT I issued a lot of the F-2s & F-3s. After V-E day all supplies including flight clothing [Class 13 - that is}were ordered turned in to A/C Supply to be returned to the main depot as reparable. Some of the squadrons missed the deadline and we were forced to burn a pile [10-15 ft in dia. and at leat 5 ft high] of flight clothing because we could not return any more. --- 100 octane gasoline was helpful with that job. There was a jacket insert too but since I very seldom really knew what I was issueing, I don't know if the heating element was in the jacket or insert. FOUND a note -- Insert, EH jacket waist size -- forF2 EH fly. suit. spec. 3181---Insert- EH trouser size # forType 2 EH fly. suit spec, 3182 [ pt # for each size followed.] I have a pair of silk glove inserts but think they went with the B-2 outfits. ========================= DAVE TOOLEY WROTE-- ? I know that there were the two military > publications, Yank and Stars and Stripes. But did everyone get them? How > old was the news by the time you heard about it? If memory serves me correctly both publication were available ot all of us. I Have 30-40 Stars and stripe in my locker - a quick glance tells me it was a daily publication as there is a Saturday March 6, 1943 and a Friday July 30, 1943. the bottom on is Saturday July 29, 1944........Printed in London and marked 1d. DON'T FORGET the Armed Forces jRadio!!! I seem to remember listening to a world series game MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 04:41:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:41:41 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: <7d.1d856a13.291a1585@aol.com> Kevin think of the atmosphere and earth all turning as a unit , so in effect the aircraft is moving thru this mass that is revolving at the same speed as the eatth, except for the air disturbances within the total mass. of the atmosphere. Roy 303rd navigator From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 06:39:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:39:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: <12a.6ec253f.291a3105@aol.com> Kevin, Airplanes are not space ships. They are airships. Airplanes fly through the air. The air turns with the earth. The airplanes Then turn with the earth also. This of course is in a no wind condition which is not common. The wind (air) blows north east south and west and since the airplane flies through the air they get blown north east south and west too. That's why we need navigators to guide us dumb pilots. The earth rotates. It also circles around the sun which also rotates around in the rotating milky way which also rotates. No wonder the navigators are always lost.too. Do you think the earth comes back to the same place every spring? It is probably millions of miles away from where it was last year because of the above. B24s are faster than B17s only below about 12,000 feet. As you get increasingly higher than that they become increasingly slower than B17s. This means that when B24 crews got high they slowed down. B17 crews didn't slow down until they got old. They did get cold because the bomb bay doors didn't close tight. I used to know a girl that must have been on a B17 crew. She must have spent a lot of time in the bomb bay, probably on a Vega model, surely not a Boeing or a Douglas. Hi Bill Heller, Stay warm Dear Friend. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 14:29:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:29:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: Thanks, Jack, for your excellent reply! I laughed for several minutes. (And I too have known a few women who obviously spent time in the bomb bay of a Vega B-17!) Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:39:01 EST > >Kevin, Airplanes are not space ships. They are airships. Airplanes fly >through the air. The air turns with the earth. The airplanes Then turn with >the earth also. This of course is in a no wind condition which is not >common. The wind (air) blows north east south and west and since the >airplane flies through the air they get blown north east south and west >too. >That's why we need navigators to guide us dumb pilots. > The earth rotates. It also circles around the sun which also rotates >around in the rotating milky way which also rotates. No wonder the >navigators >are always lost.too. > Do you think the earth comes back to the same place every spring? It >is >probably millions of miles away from where it was last year because of the >above. > B24s are faster than B17s only below about 12,000 feet. As you get >increasingly higher than that they become increasingly slower than B17s. >This means that when B24 crews got high they slowed down. B17 crews didn't >slow down until they got old. They did get cold because the bomb bay doors >didn't close tight. I used to know a girl that must have been on a B17 >crew. >She must have spent a lot of time in the bomb bay, probably on a Vega >model, >surely not a Boeing or a Douglas. > Hi Bill Heller, Stay warm Dear Friend. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 14:59:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:59:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Bill: Thanks very much for your reply and what a terrible sight that must have been watching that JU88 attacking Stavanger. When you went to Norway, what was your target - Trondheim? The few Luftwaffe pilots I know said that they almost always aimed at the wing root of both B-17 and B-24 because the primary fuel tanks are there and if they caught fire there was a chance they could melt the main spar if it hadn't been hit by the cannon and machine gun fire. But what I have surmised with the research I have done, you could riddle the 17 with hundreds and sometimes thousands of bullets, shoot off engines, catch the entire plane on fire, but the wings of the 17 rarely came off or snapped like the 24. I've interviewed many Germans who were kids during the war who saw Forts come down and almost all of them have said the 17s would be totally engulfed in flames, in a flat spin, and would spiral down into the ground. Sometimes they would explode and then parts came down over a very wide area. The plane I research, 2LT Leonard F. Figie's Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 91st BG, 322nd BS, blew up about 9,000 meters and the wreckage was scattered over 10 square miles. The bigger stuff came down closer together, but the small stuff was widely scattered. What is even more unusual, and please forgive me for stating this, but the four men inside Lassie that were killed in the fighter attack, all came to Earth within 200 yards of each other. The people of Deiderode buried the four in one grave in town cemetary, and even had a service for them. I think the one most important thing that set us apart from the Germans was the individual initiative of the American serviceman, whether he was a ground pounder, in the Air Corps, or Navy. Germans were brought up to follow orders to the detail, and like you describe with the FW 190 pilot who split essed into the sea, our men were taught to think for themselves. Maybe it is our culture, heck, we are all decendents of those thown out of other countries for one reason or another. Thanks again, Bill, for your informative response! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:12:05 -0800 > >Kevin ... > >The B24 could not fly as fast as it was able because it was part of a >strike >force ... and therefore had to stay at the speed of all attacking force. > >The B24 was a far more HUGE target and thus the Luftwaffe liked that. > >The B24 was weaker in the wing root area ... or so it certainly appeared >when I >saw it being attacked at that spot. The wing would merely fold right up, >and >down would go the B24! My Luftwaffe friends admitted to me that they >attacked >the B24 in THIS area due to its known weakness. > >Once, after I had been shot out of a formation over Norway ... and I was >making >my way for the North Sea and to get down on the deck and go home ... I >watched, >over Stavanger, a B24 being ferociously attacked by a Ju88 (twin). The >bullets >were streaming from the Ju88 RIGHT INTO THE WING ROOT AREA and all of a >sudden >the B24 wing folded up and DOWN he went. In pieces. No one got out. And >then, >the Ju88 completely ignored me and went away. I made it to the North Sea >and >went down on the deck and a lone FW190 saw me and attacked. However, we >were >then at 1000 feet and when the FW190 made his famous head-on attack and >split >essed, HE SPLIT ESSED RIGHT DOWN INTO THE SEA! Kerplunk! That was the >famous >"rote" problem we were told the enemy had ....., he was trained to do a >split >ess after a headon attack ..... uh huh! ... Duh! HE WAS AT 1000 feet! > >I have long felt that the B24 was in the ETO due to "politics" .... The >B17, >known as the Flying Fortress was getting so much publicity that I am almost >sure "someone" in Washington said, "We'd better get some B24s over there or >Consolidated will get angry.... " > >That is only an idea of mine, but as I know the government, it sounds >logical. >The B17 was a sleek ariplane and built like a brick shit house. It made >less >than HALF the target a B24 made ....the B24 was a fine airplane for the >Pacific >and long distance flying, especially with that Davis wing, but it could not >fly >as high as could we in the 17 nor as close formation due to its very bulk. > >In sports as in war, people become very attached to this or that ... it was >the >same with the B24 fellows. They had every right to love their airplane, but >it >was NOT the plane for the job that the B17 was. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never >thought > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an >instrument > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the >bulkhead. > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was >not to > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s >flew > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because >they > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked >about > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and >B-24s? I > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded >of > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible >to > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the >17, > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the >tail > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys >for > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > > walking treasure chests of information. > > Kevin > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and >other > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the >B24, > > >the > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > > >they > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, >of > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years >and > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew >... to > > >a > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack >AND > > >down. > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... >this > > >was > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even >from > > >the > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We >were > > >NOT ON > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > > >fellows > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > > >since > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our >B17s, > > >WHY > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as >pertains to > > >any > > >comfort? > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and >mourned > > >our > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of >the > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >WCH > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > > >disabling > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > > >told. > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > > >spots > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire >trap > > >anyway > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > > >same > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > > >because > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got >jumped > > >all > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone >to > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many >flight > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > > >detailed > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid >was > > >so > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > > >What > > > > are > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be >mixed > > >with > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > > >doubt > > > > it, > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing >my > > >Kids > > > > in > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit >because > > >the > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer >the > > > > heat > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the >fire > > > > danger > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > >Missions. I > > > > > >was > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we >had > > > > enough. > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the >scouting > > > > forces > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in >his > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, >and > > > > several > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only >his > > >A-2. > > > > He > > > > > >was > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old >birds > > > > were, > > > > > >I > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially >at > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > > >faster > > > > > >and > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > > >other > > > > > >thing > > > > > >I > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot >and > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses >in > > > > flight, > > > > > >even > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather >flying > > >gear > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and >other > > > > various > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > > >waist > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof >of > > >the > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed >of > > > > > >production > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you >dressed > > >for > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not >a > > > > concern. > > > > > >We > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. >Some > > >of > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people >truly > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON >! > > >.... > > > > > >we > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your >comments > > >are > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > > >flight > > > > I > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around >the > > >bomb > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something >wasn't > > >done > > > > to > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in >the > > > > planes > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems >that > > >while > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > > >could, > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough >while > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as >much > > >as > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of >tolerance > > >for > > > > the > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 15:29:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:29:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two day Pass to London Message-ID: <9F6B9C485E7E5A49B913F0F52DCFEE46483EB6@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Can some of you Gentleman describe to us younger kids some of the "average" things a member of the 8th AF would have done, saw, experienced while on a two day pass too London during the war? No doubt some of you went too the "Rainbow Club" maybe went too a Pub or two after a dance. There are some who might have meet some nice woman or maybe the "Lilly's" at Piccadilly square. What did you pack in your overnight bag. What did you eat / drink / smells? What where some of the sought after shows? Thanks for the memories and preserving our freedoms. Regards, Greg Pierce President, 8th AFHS - WA State E-mail gregory.s.pierce@Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 7 18:29:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:29:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <3BE97D73.3C94B881@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Anent the Stavanger Ju88/B24 incident, we had been to Knaben in Norway looking for a Molybdenum mine. WE did not find it but we learned that OTHERS did. As an aside, since we did not get home to Base that day, we landed at an RAF Base in Northern England and the Base CO was a Norwegian in the RAF. He told us that day that he grew up in Knaben and could have directed us right to it ... the mine. So much for Allied consulting in such things, eh? Yes, I saw many B17s in flat spins going down after heavy fighter attack. I never saw a B17 wing fold up as I did so many B24s. As to Luftgwaffe pilot special aiming points, I wish ALL of them had eschewed head-on attacks! Being 100% German and having two cousins in the Luftwaffe, one of whom flew with me in my little plane in the States in the pre-war period ... I can attest to the "rote" system of Germans. How I recall my Dad often shouting .... "Zuh best Goddam Chermans are in AMERIKA!" There were various stories of 8th crews going down in Germany with some being buried by the locals and others being pitch-forked to death by the locals. That was war. But, we won it. The last one we won. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill: Thanks very much for your reply and what a terrible sight that must > have been watching that JU88 attacking Stavanger. When you went to Norway, > what was your target - Trondheim? > > The few Luftwaffe pilots I know said that they almost always aimed at the > wing root of both B-17 and B-24 because the primary fuel tanks are there and > if they caught fire there was a chance they could melt the main spar if it > hadn't been hit by the cannon and machine gun fire. But what I have > surmised with the research I have done, you could riddle the 17 with > hundreds and sometimes thousands of bullets, shoot off engines, catch the > entire plane on fire, but the wings of the 17 rarely came off or snapped > like the 24. I've interviewed many Germans who were kids during the war who > saw Forts come down and almost all of them have said the 17s would be > totally engulfed in flames, in a flat spin, and would spiral down into the > ground. Sometimes they would explode and then parts came down over a very > wide area. The plane I research, 2LT Leonard F. Figie's Lassie Come Home, > 42-31673, 91st BG, 322nd BS, blew up about 9,000 meters and the wreckage was > scattered over 10 square miles. The bigger stuff came down closer together, > but the small stuff was widely scattered. What is even more unusual, and > please forgive me for stating this, but the four men inside Lassie that were > killed in the fighter attack, all came to Earth within 200 yards of each > other. The people of Deiderode buried the four in one grave in town > cemetary, and even had a service for them. > > I think the one most important thing that set us apart from the Germans was > the individual initiative of the American serviceman, whether he was a > ground pounder, in the Air Corps, or Navy. Germans were brought up to > follow orders to the detail, and like you describe with the FW 190 pilot who > split essed into the sea, our men were taught to think for themselves. > Maybe it is our culture, heck, we are all decendents of those thown out of > other countries for one reason or another. > > Thanks again, Bill, for your informative response! > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:12:05 -0800 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >The B24 could not fly as fast as it was able because it was part of a > >strike > >force ... and therefore had to stay at the speed of all attacking force. > > > >The B24 was a far more HUGE target and thus the Luftwaffe liked that. > > > >The B24 was weaker in the wing root area ... or so it certainly appeared > >when I > >saw it being attacked at that spot. The wing would merely fold right up, > >and > >down would go the B24! My Luftwaffe friends admitted to me that they > >attacked > >the B24 in THIS area due to its known weakness. > > > >Once, after I had been shot out of a formation over Norway ... and I was > >making > >my way for the North Sea and to get down on the deck and go home ... I > >watched, > >over Stavanger, a B24 being ferociously attacked by a Ju88 (twin). The > >bullets > >were streaming from the Ju88 RIGHT INTO THE WING ROOT AREA and all of a > >sudden > >the B24 wing folded up and DOWN he went. In pieces. No one got out. And > >then, > >the Ju88 completely ignored me and went away. I made it to the North Sea > >and > >went down on the deck and a lone FW190 saw me and attacked. However, we > >were > >then at 1000 feet and when the FW190 made his famous head-on attack and > >split > >essed, HE SPLIT ESSED RIGHT DOWN INTO THE SEA! Kerplunk! That was the > >famous > >"rote" problem we were told the enemy had ....., he was trained to do a > >split > >ess after a headon attack ..... uh huh! ... Duh! HE WAS AT 1000 feet! > > > >I have long felt that the B24 was in the ETO due to "politics" .... The > >B17, > >known as the Flying Fortress was getting so much publicity that I am almost > >sure "someone" in Washington said, "We'd better get some B24s over there or > >Consolidated will get angry.... " > > > >That is only an idea of mine, but as I know the government, it sounds > >logical. > >The B17 was a sleek ariplane and built like a brick shit house. It made > >less > >than HALF the target a B24 made ....the B24 was a fine airplane for the > >Pacific > >and long distance flying, especially with that Davis wing, but it could not > >fly > >as high as could we in the 17 nor as close formation due to its very bulk. > > > >In sports as in war, people become very attached to this or that ... it was > >the > >same with the B24 fellows. They had every right to love their airplane, but > >it > >was NOT the plane for the job that the B17 was. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never > >thought > > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an > >instrument > > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the > >bulkhead. > > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was > >not to > > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s > >flew > > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because > >they > > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked > >about > > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and > >B-24s? I > > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded > >of > > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible > >to > > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the > >17, > > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the > >tail > > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys > >for > > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > > > walking treasure chests of information. > > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and > >other > > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the > >B24, > > > >the > > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > > > >they > > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, > >of > > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years > >and > > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew > >... to > > > >a > > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack > >AND > > > >down. > > > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... > >this > > > >was > > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even > >from > > > >the > > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We > >were > > > >NOT ON > > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > > > >fellows > > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > > > >since > > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our > >B17s, > > > >WHY > > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as > >pertains to > > > >any > > > >comfort? > > > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and > >mourned > > > >our > > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of > >the > > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > > > >disabling > > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > > > >told. > > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > > > >spots > > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire > >trap > > > >anyway > > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > > > >same > > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > > > >because > > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got > >jumped > > > >all > > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone > >to > > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many > >flight > > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > > > >detailed > > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid > >was > > > >so > > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > > > >What > > > > > are > > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be > >mixed > > > >with > > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > > > >doubt > > > > > it, > > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing > >my > > > >Kids > > > > > in > > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit > >because > > > >the > > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer > >the > > > > > heat > > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the > >fire > > > > > danger > > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > > >Missions. I > > > > > > >was > > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we > >had > > > > > enough. > > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the > >scouting > > > > > forces > > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in > >his > > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, > >and > > > > > several > > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only > >his > > > >A-2. > > > > > He > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old > >birds > > > > > were, > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially > >at > > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > > > >faster > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > > > >other > > > > > > >thing > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot > >and > > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses > >in > > > > > flight, > > > > > > >even > > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > >flying > > > >gear > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and > >other > > > > > various > > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > > > >waist > > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof > >of > > > >the > > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed > >of > > > > > > >production > > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you > >dressed > > > >for > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not > >a > > > > > concern. > > > > > > >We > > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. > >Some > > > >of > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people > >truly > > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON > >! > > > >.... > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your > >comments > > > >are > > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > > > >flight > > > > > I > > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around > >the > > > >bomb > > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something > >wasn't > > > >done > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in > >the > > > > > planes > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems > >that > > > >while > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > > > >could, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough > >while > > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as > >much > > > >as > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of > >tolerance > > > >for > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 06:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 01:35:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two day Pass to London Message-ID: Dear Greg, I was not going to answer your letter as I am not typical but I see no one else has so I will. I am speaking only for me. Like all others we were all different. I do not and did not smoke nor drink nor pick up Picadilly commandos so I was not a good nor regular Pub customer. Some probably were but not as you might think We flew hard and often. We were tired and rested when we had a chance. We got a 48 hour pass once in a while and many went to London. I went once but the V-1 and V-2s were active then and one trip was enough for me. When we ate in a pub about the only thing to order was fish & chips. The English had very strict rationing and there wasn't any excessive food available. We had Clubs on the field and I think you could get half & half (pronounced Arf & Arf) It was half beer and half ale. I suppose you could get either one separately too. It was not cold. They drank it warm. I suppose there was hard stuff available too. Probably brandy and etc. As for me when I had time or a 48 hour pass I rode my bicycle to the nearby towns. Visited the English people I had got aquatinted with. and went to an English cinema once in a while. I played poker in the clubs, half soled shoes, cut hair, sewed, worked on the hut, cleaned and oiled my 45's, censored mail, wrote a few letters and if I knew I was not going to fly tomorrow went over to the flight lines and worked with the ground crews on the birds (B17s) That was usually in the night. I also test flew and slow timed engines a lot. Flew a lot with new crews practicing formation. I spent a lot of time studying the German fighter pilots training manuals. Over night bag was packed with just what you would expect. I suppose clean shirt and underwear sox and maybe a class A uniform if I thought it would be needed. and a very complete first aid kit. Keep in mind I'm a kook and still do that. I've dropped the 45's and carry 38 specials. They are lighter and don't hang up if they get wet. I drink mostly water and I smelled mostly gasoline hot oil and gun powder most of the time but did not realize it until you made me think about it by your questions. I didn't go to many shows but the only thoughts after them that I remember was, Boy these English are sure Good Actors and Actresses. I did meet three very nice Girls while there. Two sisters Mollie and Sheila and a school teacher in Molesworth. I very well might have married Mollie if I hadn't got sent back to the states on such short notice but that's another story. Hope I have answered all your questions Greg. Is your father named Ivan? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 10:46:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kit Harvey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:46:45 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket dedication from the UK Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C16842.A94053A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys and Gals I'm stuck here and I need you're advice, ever since I was a kid I've heard stories from my Grandfather about what he and my Uncle did during WW2, my uncle did 2 tours in Lancs over Germany and my Grandfather was RAF ground crew and a drummer in the station band, he loves Glenn Miller, he probably re-fuelled some of you guys coming in to the UK, I know he was based near Shrewsbury for a time, anyway in my spare time I try and visit what's left of some of the old airfields near me, Bovingdon, Steeple Morden, Bassingbourn Debden etc. for me its always a moving experience, standing on the old runways wondering what thoughts and feelings were going on in the same spot 60 years ago, feeling so moved by the stories I hear about what those young men did for the us then, I sometimes realise being 29 that I would have been thought an old boy by now if Id been around then. But I've got a modern A2 flight jacket and I'd like to dedicate it to the 303rd BG, a crew and a 17, its a hard job for me as Id like one for each crew, BG and FG there was, but who do I dedicate mine to Guys? if possible Id like to be able to trace the whole history of the crew, get some first hand accounts, find out who the crew were, how many missions, maybe get some pictures of an original Jacket, the plane, and even some old base pictures, so I can go back to the station and try and place the photo's, of course Ill send you copies, of the base, the local pub that you used to drink in, with some luck the 17 is still around, in some display somewhere but if anyone is reading this who was part of a crew and maybe has some time to help me out with this I would be very grateful, I guess its my way of saying thank you to all the Airmen, but it would be an interesting little project and trade of information and pictures, Thunder Bird maybe? the site has masses of information. 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And what you wrote reminds me of a conversation I had with an Englishman in a freehouse near Martlesham Heath. We (Ray Ward and I from the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn) had been touring old airfields all day and I had my hand painted A-2 jacket on when we walked into the pub. This elderly man came up to me and he was more than a little drunk. He said he liked my A-2 and we got to talking. He had been a Hurricane pilot during the war and had fought through the Battle of Britain. Describing one of his victories, his conversation went something like what you wrote. I had to keep stopping him to describe the slang he was using. Being a bit buzzed and rattling on at a hundred miles an hour, it was tough understanding the ol' chap. Thanks for that great memory - I'd almost forgotten that man. And I never wrote the guy's name down I was so awe struck by his stories and language. Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>, >"'daves@viconet.com'" , "'scott.hasko@ipaper.com'" >, "'firemanjp@aol.com'" >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Slang >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:27:27 -0500 > >Kevin, > > By George... I think I've got it! > > > Alo, Mates! So there I was in the Office of my Hurryback, I had just >finished some Bumps and Circuits over the field and thought I'd Get >Cracking >to see if I could Collect A Gong today! So I cranked up the Fan in my Kite >and headed for the coast... > Sure enough as I was Crabbing along I spotting a Jerry 109 Stooging >About >above me, I didn't want to make A Black of this and let the bugger Jink >Away >so I climbed up and played Pussy With Him. But as I was Screaming Downhill >into the Dog Fight, his wingman, who I missed in the glare off my >Greenhouse >was suddenly on my tail feathers.... This chap was no Erk, or Bus Driver! > Now I am not Shooting A Line here....As I started to Plug Away at the >first Jerry I heard a loud Pleep and smoke began to pour into the Pulpit, I >knew my engine would Pack Up soon!!! I figured just one more Squirt before >I >had to peel off.... But it was too late, I was heading for the drink! I >checked my Mae West and Bailed out, sitting under my Brolly all I could >think about was the Blond Job I had a Pint with last night, she thought I >was a real Wizard! But my luck, I was Shot Down In Flames at the Pub too!! >looks like my Stationmaster will have my rings!! It's the Dustbin in a Lank >for me :( > >P.O. T. Hollritt >102 (much) SQ. RAF > > > >SHORT GLOSSARY OF RAF SLANG > > > > Balbo, A A large formation of aircraft > Bale out To take to one's parachute > Bind, A People who obstruct one > Black, A Something badly done, a "bad show" > Blitz, A solid lump of Large >formation of enemy aircraft > Blonde job, A Young woman with fair hair > Bogus Sham, spurious > Bomphleteers Airmen engaged on the early pamphlet > raids > Brassed off Diminutive of "browned off" > Brolly Parachute > Browned off, To be "Fed up" > Bumps and Circuits Circuits and landings > Bus driver A bomber pilot > Buttoned up A job properly completed, "mastered" > Completely Cheesed No hope at all > Cope To accomplish, to deal with > Crabbing along Flying near the ground or water > Deck, Crack down on To "pancake" an aircraft > Dog fight Aerial scrap > Drill, The right Correct method of doing anything > Drink, In the To come down into the sea > Dud Applied to weather when unfit to fly > Duff gen Dud information > Dust bin Rear gunner's lower position in > aircraft > Erk, An A beginner in any job > Fan The propeller > Flak Anti-aircraft fire > Flap A disturbance, general excitement > Fox, To To do something clever or rather cunning > Gen (pron jen) General information of any kind whatever > George The automatic pilot > Get Cracking Get going > Gong, To collect a To get a medal > Greenhouse Cockpit cover >Hedge-hopping Flying so low that the aircraft appears to hop over >the hedges > Hurryback A Hurricane fighter > Jink away Sharp manoeuvre Sudden evasive action of >aircraft > Kipper Kite Coastal Command Aircraft which convoy >fishing fleets in > the North and Irish Seas > Kite An aeroplane > Laid on, To have To produce anything, such as supplies > Mae West Life-saving stole, or waistcoat, inflated if > wearer falls into sea > Mickey Mouse Bomb-dropping mechanism > Muscle in To take advantage of a good thing > Office Cockpit of aircraft > Organize To "win" a wanted article > Pack up Cease to function > Peel off, To Break formation to engage enemy > Play pussy Hide in the clouds > Pleep A squeak, rather like a high note >klaxon > Plug away Continue to fire Keep after target > Pukka gen Accurate information > Pulpit Cockpit of aircraft > Quick squirt Short sharp burst of machine-gun fire > Quickie Short for above > Rang the bell Got good results > Rings Rank designation on officer's cuffs > Ropey Uncomplimentary adjective "A ropey > Landing", "A ropey type", "A >ropey > evening", etc > Screamed downhill Executed a power dive > Shooting a line Exaggerated talk, generally about one's > own prowess > Shot Down in Flames Crossed in love Severe reprimand > Snake about Operational aerobatics > Spun in A bad mistake Analogy from an aircraft > spinning out of control >into >the ground > Stationmaster Commanding Officer of Station > Stooge Deputy, ie second pilot or any assistant > Stooging about Delayed landing for various reasons Flying > slowly over an area >Patrolling > Synthetic Not the real thing Also applied to ground > training > Tail End Charlie Rear gunner in large bombing aircraft or > rear aircraft of a formation > Tear off a strip To reprimand, take down a peg > Tee up To prepare a job, to get ready > Touch bottom Crash > Toys A great deal of training equipment is > termed toys > Train, Driving the Leading more than one squadron > into battle > Type Classification - usually referring to > people Good, Bad, > Ropey, Poor type > View RAF personnel always take a "view" of > things Good view, Poor view, Dim >view, Long distance view, Lean > view, Outside view, >"Ropey" >view > Wizard Really first class, superlative, > attractive, ingenious > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 15:05:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:05:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Spider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the rows and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. By the way, there is a fully restored B-17G for sale in Florida for, get this, $3 million! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:48:28 -0800 > >Kevin: > I'm not Bill but after the war I became an Engineering Officer. The B24 >had >a fuel manifold in the wing which was a large pipe about 12 inches all the >tanks emptied into this manifold and all the engines were fed from it, IT >WAS NOT SELF SEALED and was the cause of many of the burning wing photos we >see in combat pictures. Why did the get rid of all the B24s if they were >any >good. > > Spider- >---- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:49 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never >thought > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an >instrument > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the >bulkhead. > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was >not >to > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s >flew > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because >they > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked >about > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and >B-24s? >I > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded >of > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible >to > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the >17, > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the >tail > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys >for > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > > walking treasure chests of information. > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and >other > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the >B24, > > >the > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > > >they > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, >of > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years >and > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew >... >to > > >a > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack >AND > > >down. > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... >this > > >was > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even >from > > >the > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We >were > > >NOT ON > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > > >fellows > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > > >since > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our >B17s, > > >WHY > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as >pertains >to > > >any > > >comfort? > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and >mourned > > >our > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of >the > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >WCH > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > > >disabling > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > > >told. > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > > >spots > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire >trap > > >anyway > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > > >same > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > > >because > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got >jumped > > >all > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone >to > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many >flight > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > > >detailed > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid >was > > >so > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > > >What > > > > are > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be >mixed > > >with > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > > >doubt > > > > it, > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing >my > > >Kids > > > > in > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit >because > > >the > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer >the > > > > heat > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the >fire > > > > danger > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > >Missions. I > > > > > >was > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we >had > > > > enough. > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the >scouting > > > > forces > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in >his > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, >and > > > > several > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only >his > > >A-2. > > > > He > > > > > >was > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old >birds > > > > were, > > > > > >I > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially >at > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > > >faster > > > > > >and > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > > >other > > > > > >thing > > > > > >I > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot >and > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses >in > > > > flight, > > > > > >even > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather >flying > > >gear > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and >other > > > > various > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > > >waist > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof >of > > >the > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed >of > > > > > >production > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you >dressed > > >for > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not >a > > > > concern. > > > > > >We > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. >Some > > >of > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people >truly > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON >! > > >.... > > > > > >we > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your >comments > > >are > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > > >flight > > > > I > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around >the > > >bomb > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something >wasn't > > >done > > > > to > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in >the > > > > planes > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems >that > > >while > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > > >could, > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough >while > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as >much > > >as > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of >tolerance > > >for > > > > the > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 20:28:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:28:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two day Pass to London Message-ID: greg that was a good response. i wa allowed to take canned fruit and/or canned vegatables with me on pass ,if i was to stay within communities. also i rode the trains to various places/towns/cities. liked nottingham best. terrific resteraunt,same name, canoeing on river there, sherwood forest castle woods and etc. nearby thatched roof pubs ,by bycycle, visited the boots chemical shops. agreed ,very good acting at strand thetre/savoy hotel. the us had shipped over many many frigidaire refrigerators for that hotel's bar lounge to provide cold mixed drinks for gis. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 22:34:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:34:32 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Heavy Bombers Message-ID: <002b01c168a5$8a6434c0$229be0d8@h4k3401> BlankSpider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the rows and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Kevin - - -I recently bought a book called "Military Aircraft Boneyards" which explains why all of the thousands of surplus airplanes were destroyed. It seems that the government felt that the presence of a huge number of aircraft would stifle the existing aircraft industry and prevent further research and development for a long time. I remember, when I was about ten years old and living in Southern California, seeing large fields covered with all kinds of airplanes and I thought perhaps this book would show pictures of what I saw. It sure enough did show the same places that I saw then in Chino and Ontario. Anyway, the book is interesting and will answer your question. It's easily available from Motorbooks. I recommend it. Cheers, David Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 22:44:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:44:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Cold Weather Flight Gear Message-ID: <92.1cd4297c.291c64e8@aol.com> --part1_92.1cd4297c.291c64e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I usually wore my "Bunny Suit" and the only time I had trouble with the heating was once when I did not have my gloves plugged into the circuit. The result was that I had some hot spots and some cold spots, but as soon as I plugged my gloves in I became very overheated until I turned down the voltage. When I got to POW camp I learned that the radio used to pick up the BBC was a crystal set and some of the wiring came from the "Bunny Suits," so they served well and often. Bill D. --part1_92.1cd4297c.291c64e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I usually wore my "Bunny Suit" and the only time I had trouble with the heating was once when I did not have my gloves plugged into the circuit. The result was that I had some hot spots and some cold spots, but as soon as I plugged my gloves in I became very overheated until I turned down the voltage.
When I got to POW camp I learned that the radio used to pick up the BBC was a crystal set and some of the wiring came from the "Bunny Suits," so they served well and often.
Bill D. --part1_92.1cd4297c.291c64e8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 22:58:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:58:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket dedication from the UK Message-ID: Kit: That's exactly what I did when I create my A-2. The very first 8th AFer I ever met was a radio operator on a B-17 with the 381st BG, 532nd BS. I researched and research and finally found "The Miss Behavin'" Send me your e-mail address and I will send you some pics of mine and give you some pointers on the actual creation. And only you can decide what you want on your coat and you will have to do some work if you want it to be historically accurate. I've had mine for ten years! And whenever I wear it, no matter where I am, it draws a small crowd. Some like it, some don't - it has a naked, but not pornographic lady, kneeling on a cloud, with a halo over her hear, and a machine gun thrown over her back. I was arrested in Hamburg, Germany, two years back at the train station because on the back of the coat there are four Nazi Swastikas. Didn't know they had been banned in Germany since the end of the war, and they don't much believe in the right of free artistic expression there! Kevin >From: "Kit Harvey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket dedication from the UK >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:46:45 -0000 > >Guys and Gals > >I'm stuck here and I need you're advice, ever since I was a kid I've heard >stories from my Grandfather about what he and my Uncle did during WW2, my >uncle did 2 tours in Lancs over Germany and my Grandfather was RAF ground >crew and a drummer in the station band, he loves Glenn Miller, he probably >re-fuelled some of you guys coming in to the UK, I know he was based near >Shrewsbury for a time, anyway in my spare time I try and visit what's left >of some of the old airfields near me, Bovingdon, Steeple Morden, >Bassingbourn Debden etc. for me its always a moving experience, standing on >the old runways wondering what thoughts and feelings were going on in the >same spot 60 years ago, feeling so moved by the stories I hear about what >those young men did for the us then, I sometimes realise being 29 that I >would have been thought an old boy by now if Id been around then. > >But I've got a modern A2 flight jacket and I'd like to dedicate it to the >303rd BG, a crew and a 17, its a hard job for me as Id like one for each >crew, BG and FG there was, but who do I dedicate mine to Guys? if possible >Id like to be able to trace the whole history of the crew, get some first >hand accounts, find out who the crew were, how many missions, maybe get >some pictures of an original Jacket, the plane, and even some old base >pictures, so I can go back to the station and try and place the photo's, of >course Ill send you copies, of the base, the local pub that you used to >drink in, with some luck the 17 is still around, in some display somewhere >but if anyone is reading this who was part of a crew and maybe has some >time >to help me out with this I would be very grateful, I guess its my way of >saying thank you to all the Airmen, but it would be an interesting little >project and trade of information and pictures, Thunder Bird maybe? the >site >has masses of information. > >Kit Harvey, London UK ><< winmail.dat >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 8 23:55:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 18:55:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Cold Weather Flight Gear In-Reply-To: <92.1cd4297c.291c64e8@aol.com> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 01, at 17:44, Wmjdallas@aol.com wrote: > When I got to POW camp I learned that the radio used to pick up the BBC was a > crystal set and some of the wiring came from the "Bunny Suits," so they > served well and often. About 30 years I visited the museum at Wright Patterson AFB, and they had a nice display of all sorts of things that were made by the AF POWs. It was really amazing what you guys made out of nothing. I've always wanted to visit there again, although I don't know if that display is still there. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 03:09:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:09:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: Message-ID: <000d01c168cb$ff25c640$8bf833cf@richards> KEVIN: THERE'RE A LOT MORE B17'S LEFT THAN THERE ARE B24'S. SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > Spider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the rows > and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. By the way, > there is a fully restored B-17G for sale in Florida for, get this, $3 > million! > Kevin > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:48:28 -0800 > > > >Kevin: > > I'm not Bill but after the war I became an Engineering Officer. The B24 > >had > >a fuel manifold in the wing which was a large pipe about 12 inches all the > >tanks emptied into this manifold and all the engines were fed from it, IT > >WAS NOT SELF SEALED and was the cause of many of the burning wing photos we > >see in combat pictures. Why did the get rid of all the B24s if they were > >any > >good. > > > > Spider- > >---- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:49 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never > >thought > > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 (without > > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on that > > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an > >instrument > > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as I > > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the > >bulkhead. > > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was > >not > >to > > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s > >flew > > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it because > >they > > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked > >about > > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more Luftwaffe > > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and > >B-24s? > >I > > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am reminded > >of > > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly impossible > >to > > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the > >17, > > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in the > >tail > > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you guys > >for > > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You are > > > walking treasure chests of information. > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and > >other > > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the > >B24, > > > >the > > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we heard > > > >they > > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe friends, > >of > > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten years > >and > > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew > >... > >to > > > >a > > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to attack > >AND > > > >down. > > > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... > >this > > > >was > > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even > >from > > > >the > > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We > >were > > > >NOT ON > > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > > > >fellows > > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a war > > > >since > > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our > >B17s, > > > >WHY > > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as > >pertains > >to > > > >any > > > >comfort? > > > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and > >mourned > > > >our > > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of > >the > > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > > > >disabling > > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we were > > > >told. > > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get hot > > > >spots > > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire > >trap > > > >anyway > > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to the > > > >same > > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German fighters > > > >because > > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got > >jumped > > > >all > > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were prone > >to > > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many > >flight > > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > > > >detailed > > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic fluid > >was > > > >so > > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch fire. > > > >What > > > > > are > > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be > >mixed > > > >with > > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I would > > > >doubt > > > > > it, > > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from seeing > >my > > > >Kids > > > > > in > > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit > >because > > > >the > > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to transfer > >the > > > > > heat > > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the > >fire > > > > > danger > > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > > >Missions. I > > > > > > >was > > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we > >had > > > > > enough. > > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the > >scouting > > > > > forces > > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat in > >his > > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, > >and > > > > > several > > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only > >his > > > >A-2. > > > > > He > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old > >birds > > > > > were, > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially > >at > > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a little > > > >faster > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. The > > > >other > > > > > > >thing > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the pilot > >and > > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses > >in > > > > > flight, > > > > > > >even > > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > >flying > > > >gear > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and > >other > > > > > various > > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that the > > > >waist > > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the roof > >of > > > >the > > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and speed > >of > > > > > > >production > > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you > >dressed > > > >for > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was not > >a > > > > > concern. > > > > > > >We > > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the time. > >Some > > > >of > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people > >truly > > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we WON > >! > > > >.... > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your > >comments > > > >are > > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the B-17 > > > >flight > > > > > I > > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps around > >the > > > >bomb > > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something > >wasn't > > > >done > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in > >the > > > > > planes > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems > >that > > > >while > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > > > >could, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough > >while > > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on as > >much > > > >as > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of > >tolerance > > > >for > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 03:34:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:34:16 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 48 Hr. Pass--Greg Pierce Message-ID: <000801c168cf$859d92e0$25bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1689D.1E349040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AN A/C SUPPLY SGTS THOUGHTS--Don't know as I was average --I was = probably odd. Didn't like beer, still don't & had my first taste of = beer [3.2] at age 21 and "hard likker" at age 22.. VD scared the hell = out of me. Spent one pass in London - hated it. Stayed at the Columbia = and had an air raid - with Hyde Park and its AA batteries with in A = BLOCK and I never heard a blamed thing!!!. Most of my 48s fell on a sat and sun [ every fortn't that is] and I = left on friday night for Dudley, Worcestshire. Spent one night in a = hotel and was treated like dirt. First month or two spent friday night = in the local constabulary [ valuable friends too]. Later I stayed at the = home of my "Limey brother". Harold and I double dated with different = friends of his. [Met him in a milk bar.].I took ration stamps, scrounged = 10 lbs sugar a couple time and took it. Canned corn was treated as a = "sweet" [["Mom" Parks put sugar on it]].and a rare fruit cocktail,-- = seem to remember that canned fruit was rare. The favorite was Vienna = Sausages. [got couple of them several times.] and a can or two of = something else. Being from the "elite" [ SUPPLY that is --HA!] I used a = small green [I think} soft zippered navigators bag to carry my things. = It was usually pretty well laden. I assume I took a change of at least = shorts but durned if I can remember. Razor, blades, and tooth brush & = paste were the main things . We went to shows, picnics with several = other couples [RAF included.] and the ever present "Fish & Chips". = Stratford on Avon and rowed on the river. Visited & talked to the kids = since one of my dates was a school teacher. She taught in an area where = the kids were a "bit scruffy". Went with Harold's sister to a girls = school to talk. That was the first and only time she said "I'll knock = you about 7.". Went to High church on Easter and created a stir. At that = time I was the only GI in town.=20 As for the Parks family ---They were was my second home-- they treated = me as family and guest at the same time. Many is the time I have eaten = the only egg, glass of milk or piece of meat. All of my pleading and = explaining the way we were fed on base was to no avail. One Christmas = Mom Parks apologized constantly because they had no brandy to flame the = pudding. The door was always unlocked or I knew where the key was. In = the winter there was a "china" hot water bottle or a hot brick at the = foot of my feather tick bed. I was always served [last - I got the tea = pot] breakfast in bead on Sunday mornig. A family ritual carried out by = "Mom" Parks.=20 AFTER THOUGHT--- Never minded the food EXCEPT the first 6 months while = we were on British rations--The mutton stew WAS a "bit much!" Better cease & desist ---- fond memories make me "talkitive".---Maurice = Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1689D.1E349040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

AN A/C SUPPLY SGTS THOUGHTS--Don't = know as=20 I was average --I was probably odd. Didn't like beer, still don't = & had=20 my first taste of beer [3.2] at age 21 and "hard likker" at age = 22.. VD=20 scared the hell out of me. Spent one pass in London - hated it. Stayed = at the=20 Columbia and had an air raid - with Hyde Park and its AA batteries with = in A=20 BLOCK and I never heard a blamed thing!!!.

Most of my 48s fell on a sat and = sun [ every=20 fortn't that is] and I left on friday night for Dudley,=20 Worcestshire. Spent one night in a hotel and was treated = like dirt.=20 First month or two spent friday night in the local constabulary [ = valuable=20 friends too]. Later I stayed at the home of my "Limey=20 brother". Harold and I double dated with different friends = of his.=20 [Met him in a milk bar.].I took ration stamps, scrounged 10 lbs sugar a = couple=20 time and took it. Canned corn was treated as a "sweet" [["Mom" = Parks put=20 sugar on it]].and a rare fruit cocktail,-- seem to remember that = canned=20 fruit was rare. The favorite was Vienna Sausages. [got couple of them = several=20 times.] and a can or two of something else. Being from the "elite" [ = SUPPLY that=20 is --HA!] I used a small green [I think} soft zippered navigators bag to = carry=20 my things. It was usually pretty well laden. I assume I took a = change of=20 at least shorts but durned if I can remember. Razor, blades, and tooth = brush=20 & paste were the main things . We = went to=20 shows, picnics with several other couples [RAF included.] and the = ever=20 present "Fish & Chips". Stratford on Avon and rowed on the river. = Visited=20 & talked to the kids since one of my dates was a school teacher. She = taught=20 in an area where the kids were a "bit scruffy". Went with Harold's = sister=20 to a girls school to talk. That was the first and only time she = said "I'll=20 knock you about 7.". Went to High church on Easter and created a = stir. At=20 that time I was the only GI in town.

As for the Parks family ---They were = was my second=20 home-- they treated me as family and guest at the same time. Many is the = time I=20 have eaten the only egg, glass of milk or piece of meat. All of my = pleading and=20 explaining the way we were fed on base was to no avail. One Christmas = Mom Parks=20 apologized constantly because they had no brandy to flame the pudding. = The door=20 was always unlocked or I knew where the key was. In the winter there was = a=20 "china" hot water bottle or a hot brick at the foot of my feather=20 tick bed. I was always served [last - I got the tea pot] breakfast = in bead=20 on Sunday mornig. A family ritual carried out by "Mom" Parks. =

AFTER THOUGHT--- Never minded the food = EXCEPT the=20 first 6 months while we were on British rations--The mutton stew WAS a = "bit=20 much!"

Better cease & desist ---- fond = memories make=20 me "talkitive".---Maurice Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1689D.1E349040-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 06:37:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:37:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation question Message-ID: <00b001c168e8$f3cd3d60$f4cde0cf@hoytwma2> Can you say "Coriolis Effect"? Sure you can. The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of an object moving longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves along a north-south path, or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent deflection to the right in the Northern Hemisphere and to the left in the Southern Hemisphere. There are two reasons for this phenomenon: first, the Earth rotates eastward; and second, the tangential velocity of a point on the Earth is a function of latitude (the velocity is essentially zero at the poles and it attains a maximum value at the Equator). Thus, if a cannon were fired northward from a point on the Equator, the projectile would land to the east of its due north path. This variation would occur because the projectile was moving eastward faster at the Equator than was its target farther north. Similarly, if the weapon were fired toward the Equator from the North Pole, the projectile would again land to the right of its true path. In this case, the target area would have moved eastward before the shell reached it because of its greater eastward velocity. An exactly similar displacement occurs if the projectile is fired in any direction. I cant remember where I stole that from. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 14:18:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:18:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Heavy Bombers Message-ID: David: My question was in response to another e-mail where the person said the B-24s were junk and that's why they got rid of them. But thanks for your reply, I will definitely keep my eye out for this book. They did end up selling a number of surplus aircraft and only after they started the process did the aircraft manufacturers complain and lobbied Congress to scrap them. I recall one photo that showed a mountain of R1820-97s. Many of these were sold, and one of the more interesting facts I have read is that Allison liquid cooled engines were prized for use in boat racing. You can still buy a new Allison in the box! Kevin >From: "David Y" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Heavy Bombers >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:34:32 -0800 > >BlankSpider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the >rows >and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. >Kevin >_________________________________________________________________ > >Kevin - - -I recently bought a book called "Military Aircraft Boneyards" >which >explains why all of the thousands of surplus airplanes were destroyed. It >seems >that the government felt that the presence of a huge number of aircraft >would >stifle the existing aircraft industry and prevent further research and >development for a long time. I remember, when I was about ten years old and >living in Southern California, seeing large fields covered with all kinds >of >airplanes and I thought perhaps this book would show pictures of what I >saw. It >sure enough did show the same places that I saw then in Chino and Ontario. >Anyway, the book is interesting and will answer your question. It's easily >available from Motorbooks. I recommend it. >Cheers, David Young > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 14:42:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:42:02 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Jones Message-ID: If you want to know more about the displays at Wright Patterson AFB, contact this man. He is one of the many volunteers, a super guy, flew combat with the 8th (91st BG) and was a Kreigie: Marion C. (Carl) Hoffman 365 Sycamore Glen Drive Miamisburg, Ohio 45342-3667 Phone: 937.866.3549 You may also wish to visit the museum on line. This link will take you to the High Altitude Clothing section of the museum. http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/uniforms/fc1.htm Carl also wrote the following: WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A PRISONER OF WAR To be a prisoner of war is to know hunger. We don't speak about hunger you feel when you miss a meal or cannot stand your diet. We talk about hunger from lack of solid food for weeks and months. Hunger, that gnaws at your vital organs and strips the flesh from your bones, hunger that forces you to eat anything and everything available. Black stale bread made from sawdust, watery soup infested with worms and made from garbage, rotten potatoes and turnips dug from muddy fields, and if you are lucky, hot water to wash it all down. To be a prisoner of war is to experience cold. Not a cold blustery Indiana Winter when you wish you had worn your gloves. We talk about standing for hours in soup lines in freezing weather pelted by sleet, feet numb and fingers nearly frozen. Your body is racked by uncontrollable shivering you are sick, your mind is a mask of pain. Adding to the misery, dysentery knots your stomach. It never comes it merely teases you, you began to wonder, could death be far away? To be a prisoner of war is to experience fear. The promise of food if you help remove enemy civilians bodies from homes that were bombed at Christmas time. The homes were setting along side of targeted railroad tracks. The promise of food if you help repair the bomb demolished railroad system. Nameless terror as you are packed into railroad box cars, doors locked and barred, while attacking Allied aircraft bomb and strafe and not knowing that you are there and if you will be blown to bits the next second. The terrible fear of catching a horrible disease that runs rampant throughout the Stalags, no strength or medicine to fight back. The fear that you might never again be free. To be a prisoner of war is to experience anger and deep depression. Anger knowing that your enemy counterparts, imprisoned in the United States, are well fed and clothed. Thoughts of your family and home lock your mind in bottomless depression and the cruelest torture. Anger at your captors and wishing for their death. Knowing that you are with your knowledge, training and experience in war are no longer of any use in war, Knowing that you have been sacrificed by your government like those who gave the Supreme Sacrifice. In a suddenly alien world is to suffer the agony of rehabilitation as a prisoner of war. There is frustration in trying to cope and fit into a society that seems foreign and unable to relate to your experiences. It is the resentment you immediately feel for those who have never felt what you have, seen what you have, and whose personal problems pale by comparison. The recurring nightmares that plaque you for the rest of your days. The nagging question, "Was it worth it?" "What was it all for?" "What good did it do?" "Who cares?" Nobody listened, nobody believed. Therefore, we who were Prisoner's Of War were sacrificed like those who gave the Supreme Sacrifice we did not speak. We became victims of our own silence. Perhaps there was a purpose. Perhaps the Former Prisoner Of War has a clearer perspective of what is real and who is genuine. Perhaps he understands what is really important in life... Marion C. Hoffman, February 16, 1999. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 16:35:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:35:01 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail Message-ID: Hi all, What was the process for censuring mail? Who did it? What happened if you found something that should not be sent? What information was censured? If you did the censuring, was it difficult to read others mail? Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 19:27:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:27:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Coriolis Effect Message-ID: Thanks for explaining that phenomenan better than me! Been a long time since my college weather classes! Kevin >From: "hoytwma2" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation question >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:37:05 -0700 > >Can you say "Coriolis Effect"? Sure you can. > >The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of an object moving >longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves along a north-south path, >or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent deflection to the right in the >Northern Hemisphere and to the left in the Southern Hemisphere. There are >two reasons for this phenomenon: first, the Earth rotates eastward; and >second, the tangential velocity of a point on the Earth is a function of >latitude (the velocity is essentially zero at the poles and it attains a >maximum value at the Equator). Thus, if a cannon were fired northward from >a >point on the Equator, the projectile would land to the east of its due >north >path. This variation would occur because the projectile was moving eastward >faster at the Equator than was its target farther north. Similarly, if the >weapon were fired toward the Equator from the North Pole, the projectile >would again land to the right of its true path. In this case, the target >area would have moved eastward before the shell reached it because of its >greater eastward velocity. An exactly similar displacement occurs if the >projectile is fired in any direction. > >I cant remember where I stole that from. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 19:29:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:29:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail Message-ID: Dave: Another great question and I will look forward to hearing (seeing) the responses. Kevin >From: "Tooley, Dave" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Email List (E-mail)" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>, "Heavy Bombers >Email (E-mail)" >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:35:01 -0600 > >Hi all, >What was the process for censuring mail? Who did it? What happened if you >found something that should not be sent? What information was censured? >If >you did the censuring, was it difficult to read others mail? > >Dave > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 19:44:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:44:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 48 Hr. Pass--Greg Pierce Message-ID: Maurice: You said you were in Dudley, Worcestshire, is this the Dudley next to Birmingham? I have been then. Did you ever go to the castle? Great story, Maurice! Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 48 Hr. Pass--Greg Pierce >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:34:16 -0600 > >AN A/C SUPPLY SGTS THOUGHTS--Don't know as I was average --I was probably >odd. Didn't like beer, still don't & had my first taste of beer [3.2] at >age 21 and "hard likker" at age 22.. VD scared the hell out of me. Spent >one pass in London - hated it. Stayed at the Columbia and had an air raid - >with Hyde Park and its AA batteries with in A BLOCK and I never heard a >blamed thing!!!. > > Most of my 48s fell on a sat and sun [ every fortn't that is] and I left >on friday night for Dudley, Worcestshire. Spent one night in a hotel and >was treated like dirt. First month or two spent friday night in the local >constabulary [ valuable friends too]. Later I stayed at the home of my >"Limey brother". Harold and I double dated with different friends of his. >[Met him in a milk bar.].I took ration stamps, scrounged 10 lbs sugar a >couple time and took it. Canned corn was treated as a "sweet" [["Mom" >Parks put sugar on it]].and a rare fruit cocktail,-- seem to remember that >canned fruit was rare. The favorite was Vienna Sausages. [got couple of >them several times.] and a can or two of something else. Being from the >"elite" [ SUPPLY that is --HA!] I used a small green [I think} soft >zippered navigators bag to carry my things. It was usually pretty well >laden. I assume I took a change of at least shorts but durned if I can >remember. Razor, blades, and tooth brush & paste were the main things . We >went to shows, picnics with several other couples [RAF included.] and the >ever present "Fish & Chips". Stratford on Avon and rowed on the river. >Visited & talked to the kids since one of my dates was a school teacher. >She taught in an area where the kids were a "bit scruffy". Went with >Harold's sister to a girls school to talk. That was the first and only time >she said "I'll knock you about 7.". Went to High church on Easter and >created a stir. At that time I was the only GI in town. > >As for the Parks family ---They were was my second home-- they treated me >as family and guest at the same time. Many is the time I have eaten the >only egg, glass of milk or piece of meat. All of my pleading and explaining >the way we were fed on base was to no avail. One Christmas Mom Parks >apologized constantly because they had no brandy to flame the pudding. The >door was always unlocked or I knew where the key was. In the winter there >was a "china" hot water bottle or a hot brick at the foot of my feather >tick bed. I was always served [last - I got the tea pot] breakfast in bead >on Sunday mornig. A family ritual carried out by "Mom" Parks. > >AFTER THOUGHT--- Never minded the food EXCEPT the first 6 months while we >were on British rations--The mutton stew WAS a "bit much!" > >Better cease & desist ---- fond memories make me "talkitive".---Maurice >Paulk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 19:51:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:51:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear Message-ID: Spider: You are absolutely correct! I believe there are now something like 16 airworthy B-17s and only three B-24s, out of 12,700+ B-17s and 18,000+ B-24s (includes Navy variants), and there are now less than 50 of both airworthy and static. And we all know the B-17 is the most beautiful plane ever built! First time I ever saw one, I was drawn to it like a magnet. When Lou LaHood (91st BG) and I went to CAF headquarters in Midland, Texas, to fly on Texas Raiders, we were interviewed by the local newspaper. The reporter asked Lou, "What do you think of the B-17 now?" I'll never forget Lou's response, he said, "I like it a lot better now than I did then!" Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:09:09 -0800 > >KEVIN: > THERE'RE A LOT MORE B17'S LEFT THAN THERE ARE B24'S. > > SPIDER >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:05 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > Spider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the >rows > > and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. By the >way, > > there is a fully restored B-17G for sale in Florida for, get this, $3 > > million! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:48:28 -0800 > > > > > >Kevin: > > > I'm not Bill but after the war I became an Engineering Officer. The >B24 > > >had > > >a fuel manifold in the wing which was a large pipe about 12 inches all >the > > >tanks emptied into this manifold and all the engines were fed from it, >IT > > >WAS NOT SELF SEALED and was the cause of many of the burning wing >photos >we > > >see in combat pictures. Why did the get rid of all the B24s if they >were > > >any > > >good. > > > > > > Spider- > > >---- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:49 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never > > >thought > > > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 >(without > > > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on >that > > > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an > > >instrument > > > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, >as >I > > > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the > > >bulkhead. > > > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines >was > > >not > > >to > > > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The >24s > > >flew > > > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it >because > > >they > > > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked > > >about > > > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more >Luftwaffe > > > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and > > >B-24s? > > >I > > > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am >reminded > > >of > > > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly >impossible > > >to > > > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like >the > > >17, > > > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in >the > > >tail > > > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you >guys > > >for > > > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You >are > > > > walking treasure chests of information. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying >gear > > > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks >and > > >other > > > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the > > >B24, > > > > >the > > > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we >heard > > > > >they > > > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe >friends, > > >of > > > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten >years > > >and > > > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we >flew > > >... > > >to > > > > >a > > > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to >attack > > >AND > > > > >down. > > > > > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT >.... > > >this > > > > >was > > > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this >even > > >from > > > > >the > > > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We > > >were > > > > >NOT ON > > > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns >you > > > > >fellows > > > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a >war > > > > >since > > > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on >our > > >B17s, > > > > >WHY > > > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as > > >pertains > > >to > > > > >any > > > > >comfort? > > > > > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and > > >mourned > > > > >our > > > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many >of > > >the > > > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason >for > > > > >disabling > > > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we >were > > > > >told. > > > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get >hot > > > > >spots > > > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire > > >trap > > > > >anyway > > > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to >the > > > > >same > > > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German >fighters > > > > >because > > > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I >got > > >jumped > > > > >all > > > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were >prone > > >to > > > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control >many > > >flight > > > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a >very > > > > >detailed > > > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic >fluid > > >was > > > > >so > > > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch >fire. > > > > >What > > > > > > are > > > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be > > >mixed > > > > >with > > > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I >would > > > > >doubt > > > > > > it, > > > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather >flying > > >gear > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from >seeing > > >my > > > > >Kids > > > > > > in > > > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit > > >because > > > > >the > > > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to >transfer > > >the > > > > > > heat > > > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of >the > > >fire > > > > > > danger > > > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > > > >Missions. I > > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought >we > > >had > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the > > >scouting > > > > > > forces > > > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather >flying > > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had >heat >in > > >his > > > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long >johns, > > >and > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, >only > > >his > > > > >A-2. > > > > > > He > > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those >old > > >birds > > > > > > were, > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, >especially > > >at > > > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a >little > > > > >faster > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. >The > > > > >other > > > > > > > >thing > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the >pilot > > >and > > > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see >Fortresses > > >in > > > > > > flight, > > > > > > > >even > > > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > > >flying > > > > >gear > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and > > >other > > > > > > various > > > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that >the > > > > >waist > > > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the >roof > > >of > > > > >the > > > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and >speed > > >of > > > > > > > >production > > > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you > > >dressed > > > > >for > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was >not > > >a > > > > > > concern. > > > > > > > >We > > > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the >time. > > >Some > > > > >of > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people > > >truly > > > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we >WON > > >! > > > > >.... > > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your > > >comments > > > > >are > > > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the >B-17 > > > > >flight > > > > > > I > > > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps >around > > >the > > > > >bomb > > > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something > > >wasn't > > > > >done > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly >in > > >the > > > > > > planes > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it >seems > > >that > > > > >while > > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as >they > > > > >could, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough > > >while > > > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on >as > > >much > > > > >as > > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of > > >tolerance > > > > >for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 9 20:18:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:18:47 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear References: <000d01c168cb$ff25c640$8bf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3BEC3A26.B3BE613C@attglobal.net> Spider ... You're correct. Who the hell wants a B24? Bill Odum flew one once for that famous fellow who invented some pen which could write under water ... that is before he pranged Jackie's racer at the Cleveland Air Races circa 1949 +/- .... I saw him on Wake Island with it once and asked him who the hell wants to write under water ... Cheers! WCH Dick Smith wrote: > KEVIN: > THERE'RE A LOT MORE B17'S LEFT THAN THERE ARE B24'S. > > SPIDER > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:05 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > Spider: Why did they get rid of all the B-17s? Jeez, I look at the rows > > and rows of 17s at Kingman and would give anything to have one. By the > way, > > there is a fully restored B-17G for sale in Florida for, get this, $3 > > million! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:48:28 -0800 > > > > > >Kevin: > > > I'm not Bill but after the war I became an Engineering Officer. The B24 > > >had > > >a fuel manifold in the wing which was a large pipe about 12 inches all > the > > >tanks emptied into this manifold and all the engines were fed from it, IT > > >WAS NOT SELF SEALED and was the cause of many of the burning wing photos > we > > >see in combat pictures. Why did the get rid of all the B24s if they were > > >any > > >good. > > > > > > Spider- > > >---- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:49 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill: Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I've never > > >thought > > > > your a/c were made for comfort. The first time I got in a B-17 > (without > > > > permission, mind you, but I just had to get inside), I sat down on > that > > > > cold, bare metal pilot seat and immediately knew the Fort was an > > >instrument > > > > of war, not a cozy airliner. On my way out of the plane that day, as > I > > > > exited the bombay into the radio room, I banged my forehead on the > > >bulkhead. > > > > And the first time I flew in a Fort, the noise from the engines was > > >not > > >to > > > > be believed. No wonder some of you guys are hard of hearing. > > > > > > > > What was it about the B-24s that the Luftwaffe like so much. The 24s > > >flew > > > > faster than a 17, and appears to be equally well armed. Was it > because > > >they > > > > could not sustain the battle damage that a Fort could. We've talked > > >about > > > > the Davis Wing and how it had a tendancy to buckle under stress. > > > > > > > > And another question for you since you have met far many more > Luftwaffe > > > > pilots than me. Were the tactics the same for attacking B-17s and > > >B-24s? > > >I > > > > know you might have a bit of disdain for this question as I am > reminded > > >of > > > > your comments on an earlier post that you said it was nearly > impossible > > >to > > > > describe tactics because they changed so often. But the 24, like the > > >17, > > > > must have had some weak spot(s). The 24's twin .50 power turret in > the > > >tail > > > > had to be more of a deterrant than the manual .50s in the 17. > > > > > > > > Bill, you are a real asset to this forum and I want to thank you for > > > > answering my many questions. For that matter, thanks to all of you > guys > > >for > > > > helping this 44 year old learn more about that time in history. You > are > > > > walking treasure chests of information. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying gear > > > > >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:53:08 -0800 > > > > > > > > > >Kevin ... > > > > > > > > > >Spider is correct. The glycol heaters were disabled due to leaks and > > >other > > > > >problems with them and they were a drug on maintenance. As for the > > >B24, > > > > >the > > > > >box OUR airplane came in, he IS correct again. We CHEERED when we > heard > > > > >they > > > > >would be in the bomber column that mission. Also, my Luftwaffe > friends, > > >of > > > > >which I have many, having flown as Captain with Lufthansa for ten > years > > >and > > > > >worked with and became great friends with those against whom we flew > > >... > > >to > > > > >a > > > > >man, they tell me they WANTED the B24s for they were so easy to > attack > > >AND > > > > >down. > > > > > > > > > >Methinks there is a great amount of questions about our COMFORT .... > > >this > > > > >was > > > > >war, AND, we WON it. Comfort was not the concern. I gleaned this even > > >from > > > > >the > > > > >fellow who wondered about the "loose fit" of the bomb bay doors. We > > >were > > > > >NOT ON > > > > >A PLEASURE FLIGHT! We were in war. Some of the "comfort" concerns you > > > > >fellows > > > > >have lead me to understand why, for some reason, we have not won a > war > > > > >since > > > > >ours! And, with all the open windows and hatches which we had on our > > >B17s, > > > > >WHY > > > > >would we concern ourselves with loose-fitting bomb bay doors as > > >pertains > > >to > > > > >any > > > > >comfort? > > > > > > > > > >We were a great bunch of comrades AND we appreciated each other and > > >mourned > > > > >our > > > > >losses, but we fought on each day .... We never thought of many of > > >the > > > > >concerns you fellows seem to think we had time for ... > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > >Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > > > I don't know the flash point of the heater fluid . The reason for > > > > >disabling > > > > > > the heaters was probably someone's stupidity but that's what we > were > > > > >told. > > > > > > As for electric suits we didn't wear them because they could get > hot > > > > >spots > > > > > > because of the wire used and they would give you bad burns. > > > > > > As for crew so of the Box The B17 Came In(B24) they were a fire > > >trap > > > > >anyway > > > > > > . We used to cheer when it was announced that they were going to > the > > > > >same > > > > > > target as we were ,because then we wouldn't see any German > fighters > > > > >because > > > > > > they would go after the boxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Spider > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:23 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather flying > > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spider, you're back! Great to have you back. Question: I got > > >jumped > > > > >all > > > > > > > over by a B-24 chat group when I made a remark that 24s were > prone > > >to > > > > > > > burning because of all the hydraulic fluid used to control many > > >flight > > > > > > > functions. One seemlingly very informed person wrote me a very > > > > >detailed > > > > > > > response which basically said the "flash point" of hydraulic > fluid > > >was > > > > >so > > > > > > > high it was theoretically impossible for the stuff to catch > fire. > > > > >What > > > > > > are > > > > > > > the thoughts of this group? And since ethylene glycol must be > > >mixed > > > > >with > > > > > > > water to work properly, is there really a danger of fire? I > would > > > > >doubt > > > > > > it, > > > > > > > but as we have all seen, it wouldn't be the first time! > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dick Smith" > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > flying > > >gear > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:16 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Kevin: > > > > > > > > You were wondering where Spider was ,well I'm back from > seeing > > >my > > > > >Kids > > > > > > in > > > > > > > >Prescott Az. . > > > > > > > > The heaters on our B17 G's was disconnected in the cockpit > > >because > > > > >the > > > > > > > >heaters used Ethylene Glycol the same as Auto heaters to > transfer > > >the > > > > > > heat > > > > > > > >to the cockpit . We were told they removed them because of the > > >fire > > > > > > danger > > > > > > > >from the Ethylene Glycol. > > > > > > > > As for fighter tours they were based on hours flown ,not on > > > > >Missions. I > > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > >in the First Scouting Force where we flew until they thought we > > >had > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > >There is a great web site on all the fighter groups and the > > >scouting > > > > > > forces > > > > > > > >at Try it out. > > > > > > > > Good Luck Spider Smith > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:45 PM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > flying > > >gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My good friend Lou LaHood from the 91st BG said he had heat > in > > >his > > > > > > > >B-17G, > > > > > > > > > s/n 42-31673, in the cockpit. And that he wore long johns, > > >and > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > other layers of cloths, but did not wear a heavy coat, only > > >his > > > > >A-2. > > > > > > He > > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > in the ETO from Jan. to May 44. Given how drafty those old > > >birds > > > > > > were, > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > don't see how the heat could have done much good, especially > > >at > > > > > > > >altitude. > > > > > > > > > But given the level of combat, maybe the heart pumped a > little > > > > >faster > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > kept a guy a bit warmer than if he was not flying combat. > The > > > > >other > > > > > > > >thing > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > can't stand about the remake of Memphis Belle is how the > pilot > > >and > > > > > > > >copilot > > > > > > > > > are wearing their 50 mission crush caps on the mission. > > > > >Incredible! > > > > > > > > > Hollywood did it again. (But I still love to see Fortresses > > >in > > > > > > flight, > > > > > > > >even > > > > > > > > > if it's in a bad movie.) > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: [HeavyBombers] Cold weather > > >flying > > > > >gear > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:06:52 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike ... et al ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The gaps where the bomb bay doors fit to the fuselage and > > >other > > > > > > various > > > > > > > > > >"non fits" are of no consequence when one considers that > the > > > > >waist > > > > > > > >windows > > > > > > > > > >where the waist gunners operated, were open, as was the > roof > > >of > > > > >the > > > > > > > >radio > > > > > > > > > >room from whence the radio gunner operated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The B17s were not built as airliners but for combat and > speed > > >of > > > > > > > >production > > > > > > > > > >was quite of the essence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any "comfort" desired was done by the manner in which you > > >dressed > > > > >for > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >position in which you were flying. In fact, comfort was > not > > >a > > > > > > concern. > > > > > > > >We > > > > > > > > > >were in war and had the best equipment possible at the > time. > > >Some > > > > >of > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >concerns I hear are what make me wonder if today's people > > >truly > > > > > > > >understood > > > > > > > > > >what the hell was going on ... WE WERE AT WAR... AND, we > WON > > >! > > > > >.... > > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > > >have not won one since! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This should tell us something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim and Bills- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your > > >comments > > > > >are > > > > > > > >very > > > > > > > > > > > helpful and confirm my personal observations from the > B-17 > > > > >flight > > > > > > I > > > > > > > >took > > > > > > > > > > > this summer. I was struck by the size of the gaps > around > > >the > > > > >bomb > > > > > > > >bay > > > > > > > > > > > doors and the ball turret and wondered why something > > >wasn't > > > > >done > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > address them. I guess the designers never had to fly in > > >the > > > > > > planes > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > experience how cold it could get for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had several good responses to my post and it seems > > >that > > > > >while > > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > > > the gunners dressed in as much cold weather gear as they > > > > >could, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > pilots and navigator and bombardier had quite a bit of > > > > > > variability. > > > > > > > > > > > Some have told me that long johns and A-2s were enough > > >while > > > > > > others, > > > > > > > > > > > especially navs and bombardiers, have said they put on > as > > >much > > > > >as > > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > > > could. I suppose each person had his own level of > > >tolerance > > > > >for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > tradeoff between warmth and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 01:29:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:29:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN--DUDLEY CASTLE Message-ID: <002001c16987$1b5a78e0$1ebb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16954.CFBCA2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many a pleasant hour I have spent with [Harold and our companions] = wandering the grounds of the castle and its keep. and its gate with the = lead still imbedded in the stone floor where it was poured on the enemy. = Probably William the conquerer in 1066.The abbey below it and the legend = of the tunnel between the castle and the abbey.[found and lost 2-3 = times. ] Somewhere in my foot locker {sent home from Victorville, CA] I = have some negatives [620] and positves of the castle and its grouinds = This was the infromation imparted to me by Harold my "brother". During = peace time the elephants in the surroiunding zoo were cared for by = Sabu., the "Elephant Boy".. There was a hill that Harold said William = set up his cannons.[High Street Hill???????] Harold and family lived = in a semi-detached on #2 Blowers Green Crescent. "semi-detached" ---That's a word I hadn't thought of for ages [and = ages]. For the uninitiated that is the same as a "duplex" apartment.=20 The castle was finally destroyed by fire in the 1800s [I think} by some = conterfieters [spelling???] making silver coins. Rumor had it that the a = batch of molten siver was tipped over.-----------Pleasant times and = wonderful people. Maurice-------- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16954.CFBCA2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Many a pleasant hour I have spent with = [Harold and=20 our companions] wandering the grounds of the castle and its keep. and = its gate=20 with the lead still imbedded in the stone floor where it was poured on = the=20 enemy. Probably William the conquerer in 1066.The abbey below it and the = legend=20 of the tunnel between the castle and the abbey.[found and lost 2-3 = times. ]=20 Somewhere in my foot locker {sent home from Victorville, CA] I have some = negatives [620] and positves of the castle and its grouinds This was the = infromation imparted to me by Harold my "brother". During peace time the = elephants in the surroiunding zoo were cared for by Sabu., the "Elephant = Boy"..=20 There was a hill that Harold said William set up his cannons.[High = Street=20 Hill???????] Harold and = family lived=20 in a semi-detached on #2 Blowers Green Crescent.

"semi-detached" ---That's = a word I=20 hadn't thought of for ages [and ages]. For the uninitiated that is the = same as a=20 "duplex" apartment.

The castle was finally destroyed by = fire in the=20 1800s [I think} by some conterfieters [spelling???] making silver coins. = Rumor=20 had it that the a batch of molten siver was tipped = over.-----------Pleasant times and wonderful people.

Maurice--------

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C16954.CFBCA2A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 01:33:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:33:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kevin - after thoiught Message-ID: <002601c16987$c33338e0$1ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Yes---- Coventery bus out of Northhampton to Biirmingham & take # 25 Tipton] double decker to Duidley. This ktime I remembered "plain Text.------- MJP From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 04:54:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 04:54:02 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail Message-ID: <20011110045402.FDDF19017.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Censuring mail was not a choice duty. Barracks seniority determined who would censure. The newest officers had the duty. I checked into the barracks on February 1. 1945 and censured for about six to eight weeks. By early April I no longer had the duty. Barracks seniority also determined how close your bunk was to the stove and light bulb. By early April I had moved from the dark, cold end of the barracks to the bunk by the stove and directly under the light. I was top seniority man. There were guidelines for the censuring. I don't remember what they were but they had to do with information regarding mission data etc. We read the letters and marked through that part that we felt was off base. This was done before the letter was transfered to the V-mail format. There was always one or two men that had several gals on the string and their letters were fun to read....Bill Runnels > Hi all, > What was the process for censuring mail? Who did it? What happened if you > found something that should not be sent? What information was censured? If > you did the censuring, was it difficult to read others mail? > > Dave > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 07:04:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:04:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation question Message-ID: Are you sure this is correct if the cannon is fired directly east or west? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 07:20:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:20:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail Message-ID: <159.3d2690d.291e2f4f@aol.com> Dave, In our outfit the pilot or copilot did it. We cut it out with a razor of knife or I usually gave it back to the writer and told him. He knew what we couldn't put in a letter just as well as I did and shame on him for trying to slip something by. now write this letter over. I don't want your folks, girl friend, etc getting a letter all cut up. Anything that intelligence thought would be helpful information for the enemy in any way for their fight or propaganda. like Altitudes, bomb loads, problems we had, number of missions flown, etc. Yes it was very difficult for me. It was my most hated job. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 15:11:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:11:44 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2nd Air Division - UK reunion Message-ID: <000701c169fa$3a6dcf20$0424fd3e@o7b6a3> What, I can hear you all saying, has the 2nd Air Division got to do with the 303rd? Please bear with me and I'll explain. During the past week, the people of both the city of Norwich, and the county of Norfolk, England have been 'invaded' by veterans of the various bomb groups that made up the 2nd Air Division, of the wartime Eighth Air Force. They were over here for what was billed as 'the final mission' and to attend the inauguration of the 2nd Air Division's Memorial Library in Norwich. It replaces the one that was burned down in 1994. It's a most impressive memorial and if you happen to be in Norwich, is well worth a visit. Give me a call on 44-1603 720980 and I'll be pleased to show you around. What will perhaps amuse you 1st Air Division guys, is that BBC television, which gave considerable coverage to the reunion, used footage of B-17's rather than the B-24 which, as you know only too well, made up the bulk of the 2nd Air Division's aircraft. Indeed, one prominent shot showed a B-17, sporting a familiar red triangle 'C' on its tail! Perhaps they didn't have too much footage of the 'box-car' to show the viewers. In any event I guess not too many of today's young English viewers appreciated the glaring error? I got talking with a few of the returning veterans and told them of my allegiance to the 1st Air Division in general, and the 303rd BG in particular. "Is that so?", exclaimed one ex-B24 pilot, "So you've made friends of the old enemy, have you?" I'm sure he was kidding, but I thought I detected a certain amount of truthfulness in his voice. It got me to wonder if there really was any sort of fierce rivalry between the two air divisions? Whilst you were all part of the Mighty Eighth was there any real animosity? If so, anyone got any tales of 'putting it over the opposition', as it were? Ray Cossey Honorary Member Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 20:35:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:35:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN--DUDLEY CASTLE Message-ID: Maurice: Nice memories! The very first time I went to Europe was in 1997 and I went to Dudley to call on a company called Scot Young Research, a maker of high tech mops and buckets (yep, there really is such a thing). We were greeted at Heathrowe by a Rolls Royce Bentley (hope I got that right), and then given the Royal treatment by the local politicians. Ian Brough is my counterpart in Dudley. We toured four of SYR's plants, the castle, and had dinner in the town hall. Unfortunately, Dudley had very high unemployment when we were they and they were cleaning up a large steel mill. Dudley and Birmingham was where iron was first forged. Maurice, did you also go to the other large Royal estate west of Dudley? I can't remember the name, but it was a huge and beautiful estate. The owners even had the peasants dig a huge lake there, about 25 acres, because they wanted a better view. Amazing! I had the weekend free after our many meetings and I could have gone anywhere - London, Paris, but I went to Station 121, Bassingbourn, home of the 91st BG out of respect for my good friend Lou LaHood who flew from there during the war. That visit sparked two more visits to all of the heavy bomber stations in East Anglia. After walking around Bassingbourn, I knew I would have to visit more of the bases. Thanks for your comments, Maurice! Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN--DUDLEY CASTLE >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:29:12 -0600 > >Many a pleasant hour I have spent with [Harold and our companions] >wandering the grounds of the castle and its keep. and its gate with the >lead still imbedded in the stone floor where it was poured on the enemy. >Probably William the conquerer in 1066.The abbey below it and the legend of >the tunnel between the castle and the abbey.[found and lost 2-3 times. ] >Somewhere in my foot locker {sent home from Victorville, CA] I have some >negatives [620] and positves of the castle and its grouinds This was the >infromation imparted to me by Harold my "brother". During peace time the >elephants in the surroiunding zoo were cared for by Sabu., the "Elephant >Boy".. There was a hill that Harold said William set up his cannons.[High >Street Hill???????] Harold and family lived in a semi-detached on #2 >Blowers Green Crescent. > "semi-detached" ---That's a word I hadn't thought of for ages [and ages]. >For the uninitiated that is the same as a "duplex" apartment. > >The castle was finally destroyed by fire in the 1800s [I think} by some >conterfieters [spelling???] making silver coins. Rumor had it that the a >batch of molten siver was tipped over.-----------Pleasant times and >wonderful people. >Maurice-------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 20:54:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:54:48 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Ray Cossey Message-ID: Ray: That is an excellent question! I visited Rackheath in 98 I think and was unhappy to see the condition of the tower. Although the owner allowed me on the grounds to take photographs of the tower and Nissen he owned, he wouldn't let me in the tower as it appeared unsafe. I did hear about a year ago that a group from Norwich was trying to buy the tower and turn it into a museum. Do you know the status of this project? The industrial estate at Rackheath is very well maintained with several memorials there to the wartime service of the men who flew and worked from there. I even heard there was a wartime building with many hand painted pictures from the war. We looked for about a half day trying to determine where this building was but we were not successful. Know anything about this? I was in contact with Phylis (can't remember her last name) who was the former director of the 2nd Air Division Memorial Library. She was most helpful in telling me what to see at the 2nd AD bases I visited. I still like Mendlesham, Martlesham Heath (even got inside the main gate at the now British Telecom research facility because it was a Sunday), and Hardwick. And I wish they would find a better use for those old runways than a place where hog manure is allowed to dry! Wheeeeew! Kevin >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Talk Forum" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2nd Air Division - UK reunion >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:11:44 -0000 > >What, I can hear you all saying, has the 2nd Air Division got to do with >the >303rd? Please bear with me and I'll explain. > >During the past week, the people of both the city of Norwich, and the >county >of Norfolk, England have been 'invaded' by veterans of the various bomb >groups that made up the 2nd Air Division, of the wartime Eighth Air Force. >They were over here for what was billed as 'the final mission' and to >attend >the inauguration of the 2nd Air Division's Memorial Library in Norwich. It >replaces the one that was burned down in 1994. It's a most impressive >memorial and if you happen to be in Norwich, is well worth a visit. Give me >a call on 44-1603 720980 and I'll be pleased to show you around. > >What will perhaps amuse you 1st Air Division guys, is that BBC television, >which gave considerable coverage to the reunion, used footage of B-17's >rather than the B-24 which, as you know only too well, made up the bulk of >the 2nd Air Division's aircraft. Indeed, one prominent shot showed a B-17, >sporting a familiar red triangle 'C' on its tail! Perhaps they didn't have >too much footage of the 'box-car' to show the viewers. In any event I guess >not too many of today's young English viewers appreciated the glaring >error? > >I got talking with a few of the returning veterans and told them of my >allegiance to the 1st Air Division in general, and the 303rd BG in >particular. "Is that so?", exclaimed one ex-B24 pilot, "So you've made >friends of the old enemy, have you?" I'm sure he was kidding, but I >thought >I detected a certain amount of truthfulness in his voice. It got me to >wonder if there really was any sort of fierce rivalry between the two air >divisions? Whilst you were all part of the Mighty Eighth was there any real >animosity? If so, anyone got any tales of 'putting it over the >opposition', >as it were? > >Ray Cossey >Honorary Member >Norwich, England > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 21:11:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:11:45 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censuring mail References: <159.3d2690d.291e2f4f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BED9812.EA47430A@attglobal.net> Once again our President, Jack Rencher is correct In his handling of censoring. I personally felt that it was (1) a terrible interference in a person's private life to read his mail. However, this was war, which we realized then (no ACLU or some such) and we HAD to censor. I did the same as Jack ... I gave the letter back to my crew and told them to rewrite it so that there were NO cutouts here and there. However, they still had to give us the letter to AGAIN censor before we put our signature and rank on the front so it could be posted. We seldom censored OTHER EM's mail. Usually our own crew. I imagine the Staff Officers of the Squadron censored THEIR own EM's as well. When I became Squadron Commander, I censored no mail. It was always left to the Staff Officers and the Flight Crew Officers. Reviewing today's military, I find there are many aspects of OUR war which could be used today. I find far too much "sanitizing" of the war. I see a helluva lot of ragheads shooting off guns but I never see any BODIES! And all this "counselling" of those who have seen battle. Hell, I can recall coming home to a 20-man barracks after a mission and seeing SIXTEEN EMPTY BEDS! And this was ONE barracks in ONE Squadron, in ONE Group, in ONE Wing, in ONE Division, After ONE Strike Force Mission! And all I got was a shot of booze and told to get some rest for we are alerted for the morrow ... Did you ever realize that we have more generals today than we had in the war we won? Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Dave, > In our outfit the pilot or copilot did it. We cut it out with a razor > of knife or I usually gave it back to the writer and told him. He knew what > we couldn't put in a letter just as well as I did and shame on him for trying > to slip something by. now write this letter over. I don't want your folks, > girl friend, etc getting a letter all cut up. Anything that intelligence > thought would be helpful information for the enemy in any way for their fight > or propaganda. like Altitudes, bomb loads, problems we had, number of > missions flown, etc. Yes it was very difficult for me. It was my most hated > job. > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 21:23:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:23:55 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2nd Air Division - UK reunion References: <000701c169fa$3a6dcf20$0424fd3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <3BED9AEB.9E91FDC4@attglobal.net> Ray Cossey ... Anent your reference to "enemy" v.v. B17 crews and B24 crews .... it was always thus that ANY organization was fiercely partisan to its "machine" whether it was an airplane or a weapons carrier. I knew some friends in the Tank Corps who were brutal enemies when it came to the values of THEIR tank over the OTHER guy's tank. NONE OF THIS WAS OF THE NATURAL ENMITY FEATURE. During it all they were all patriots. I can recall a friend telling me about in training in one Tank Corps where the fellows had "races" between THEIR tanks and the OTHER ones. Such is like the "enmity" between towns with their High School Football teams. When I played for the Spring City Pirates ... my High School football team, we had one of our star Ends who was dating a girl from across the river in another High School which was our annual Thanksgiving Day rival. Can you believe we did not even TALK to him? But when game day came, he was one of the team. When you come down to it ... it was almost the same as the "Yank" and the "Limey" ... how many times would we Yanks laugh at the "tea wagon" and say to each other ... "I wonder if they take Tea Time in the trenches, too!" But NO WHERE did we DOWNGRADE our great friends and allies. This was all in fun. In conclusion, even today when you view the old wartime B17, you MUST agree that its build was of a steamline of which NO B24 can boast. Even when matched against some jets of today - forget the sweepback of the wing - it STILL looks VERY SLEEK! Ruth and I wish you and yours a wonderful Holiday Season. Stay well. Cheers! WCH ray cossey wrote: > What, I can hear you all saying, has the 2nd Air Division got to do with the > 303rd? Please bear with me and I'll explain. > > During the past week, the people of both the city of Norwich, and the county > of Norfolk, England have been 'invaded' by veterans of the various bomb > groups that made up the 2nd Air Division, of the wartime Eighth Air Force. > They were over here for what was billed as 'the final mission' and to attend > the inauguration of the 2nd Air Division's Memorial Library in Norwich. It > replaces the one that was burned down in 1994. It's a most impressive > memorial and if you happen to be in Norwich, is well worth a visit. Give me > a call on 44-1603 720980 and I'll be pleased to show you around. > > What will perhaps amuse you 1st Air Division guys, is that BBC television, > which gave considerable coverage to the reunion, used footage of B-17's > rather than the B-24 which, as you know only too well, made up the bulk of > the 2nd Air Division's aircraft. Indeed, one prominent shot showed a B-17, > sporting a familiar red triangle 'C' on its tail! Perhaps they didn't have > too much footage of the 'box-car' to show the viewers. In any event I guess > not too many of today's young English viewers appreciated the glaring error? > > I got talking with a few of the returning veterans and told them of my > allegiance to the 1st Air Division in general, and the 303rd BG in > particular. "Is that so?", exclaimed one ex-B24 pilot, "So you've made > friends of the old enemy, have you?" I'm sure he was kidding, but I thought > I detected a certain amount of truthfulness in his voice. It got me to > wonder if there really was any sort of fierce rivalry between the two air > divisions? Whilst you were all part of the Mighty Eighth was there any real > animosity? If so, anyone got any tales of 'putting it over the opposition', > as it were? > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 10 22:32:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:32:23 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Heller & Kevin Pearson References: Message-ID: <001901c16a37$a8da2a20$0ce9fc3e@o7b6a3> Firstly, for Bill. You are so right, Bill, to say that such competition between fellow combatants was healthy, but that you never forgot that we were all on the same side. Your kind words about my fellow countrymen, are always appreciated as I know they come from the heart. Of course, there's no greater Anglophile than your goodself. Now in response to Kevin. Sorry, Kevin, but I do not have any info concerning the intention of a group to attempt a purchase of the old control tower at Rackheath. I understand there is a still some 'wall art' to be seen, but I've never seen it myself. Even though Rackheath is only a couple of miles from where I now sit, it holds no special interest for me, as I am an out and out 303rder, albeit an honorary one. I think the American lady who was the superintendant of the original 2nd Air Division Memorial Library, in Norwich, was called DuBois, or something like that. She was, as you rightly said, very helpful to all who visited. The new library is a credit to the 2ndAir Division and if the 1st Air Division could ever establish a similar memorial, somewhere in their operations area, it would be a wonderful thing. I guess that it's now a bit too late for this to be a real proposition. Thanks guys, for replying Ray From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 11 00:16:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Heidi Girman) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:16:54 PST Subject: [303rd-Talk] With Gratitude - from Heidi Girman Message-ID: <20011111001710.D446753833@pairlist.net> Hello! Heidi Girman has just sent you a greeting card from Bluemountain.com. You can pick up your personal message here: http://www6.bluemountain.com/cards/boxf227376d1/vd74axntp35iig.html Your card will be available for the next 90 days. This service is 100% FREE! :) Have a good day and have fun! ________________________________________________________________________ Accessing your card indicates agreement with Blue Mountain's Website Rules: http://www.bluemountain.com/home/WebsiteRules.html Send FREE Blue Mountain cards to friends and family (and attach gifts too!) http://www.bluemountain.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 11 01:54:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:54:22 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] With Gratitude - from Heidi Girman In-Reply-To: <20011111001710.D446753833@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011110155422.009063b0@ilhawaii.net> Heidi Girman, Aloha and thank you for your very thoughtful card' Best Wishes, Jim Walling At 04:16 PM 11/10/01 PST, you wrote: >Hello! Heidi Girman has just sent you a greeting card from Bluemountain.com. > >You can pick up your personal message here: > >http://www6.bluemountain.com/cards/boxf227376d1/vd74axntp35iig.html > >Your card will be available for the next 90 days. > >This service is 100% FREE! :) Have a good day and have fun! > >________________________________________________________________________ >Accessing your card indicates agreement with Blue Mountain's Website Rules: >http://www.bluemountain.com/home/WebsiteRules.html > >Send FREE Blue Mountain cards to friends and family (and attach gifts too!) >http://www.bluemountain.com > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 11 08:43:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 03:43:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2nd Air Division - UK reunion Message-ID: Dear Friend Ray from the Mother Country, The B24 and B17 people really love each other as the Comrades we are and were. We are brother airman and we won the war along with our English Brothers. Our kidding each other is completely all in fun. We didn't chose B17s or B24s We were assigned where we were assigned and flew what and where we were ordered to go We would have flown the barn door if the horses wouldn't have escaped. Best wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 11 13:25:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 08:25:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] News Story Message-ID: <200111111325.fABDPYJ04980@mail.poweradz.com> Article from Tyler, Tx paper on 11-11-01. http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2625705&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6 +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + As featured in the on-line version of Tyler Morning Telegraph. + Web Address: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?brd=1994 +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 11 20:37:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:37:04 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2nd Air Division - UK reunion References: Message-ID: <3BEEE170.A6B6ADAF@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Ray, Jack is correct, many of us went where we were sent ... however, in this particular subject, I'd like to tell one and all that I perservered like hell to GET INTO B17s! I recall when we were SENT to Smyrna Tennessee, which at first was a B24 AND a B17 training base, I went straight to the CO's office and "griped" that I did not want to be in B24s .... whereupon he looked at some papers stacked on his desk and asked, "Let's see, what is your name again...Ah, yes, Heller ... well Lieutenant, I see here that you are assigned to B17s and it clearly states that your CO at Columbus SAID that is what you DESIRED ... so, I guess you are a B17 trainee!" (at the time I did not know how dumb I was ... for I went to the BASE Commander's office and asked to see him ... little did I know at the time that his name was Umstead .. the cigar chomper ... and he was the test pilot on the early B19 which was to be America's bomber ... and you may recall, when they first rolled it out of the hangar, it sunk through the tarmac because it only had two small wheels as landing gear ... ) It was shortly after this that the B17s were taken away from Smyrna and we all flew our planes to Lockbourne Air Field in Columbus, Ohio. That Base today is known as Rickebacker AFB. Wow, were we EVER happy to get away from those box cars! But, Jack is correct ... in the end we'd have flown ANYTHING just to be in the fray. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Dear Friend Ray from the Mother Country, > The B24 and B17 people really love each other as the Comrades we are and > were. We are brother airman and we won the war along with our English > Brothers. Our kidding each other is completely all in fun. We didn't chose > B17s or B24s We were assigned where we were assigned and flew what and where > we were ordered to go We would have flown the barn door if the horses > wouldn't have escaped. > Best wishes. > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 01:48:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: <019001c16b1c$29060040$9c573841@hoytwma2> Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired east or west. I did too. The article stated "An exactly similar displacement occurs if the projectile is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / west fired round would over shoot or undershoot the intended target wouldnt it? The only reason I know anything about this at all is on account of helping my teenage daughter with some homework in which the question was asked "Why does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York than from New York back". I really like learning things from my kids or because of them. >From Nov 8th Nav Question "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of an object moving longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves along a north-south path, or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent deflection to the right From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 02:32:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:32:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Veterans Day Message-ID: <019b01c16b22$3d86f780$9c573841@hoytwma2> Am watching a Veterans Day program that was taped live Friday at the John Huntsman Center at the University of Utah so it could be shown today Nov 11th, Veterans Day. I was in Canada last month and got a red poppy from a Vet. I asked if 'Rememberance Day' as they call it, wasnt on the 11th and he said yes but they want to get a good start. All donations for poppies go to aid various Veterans programs. Everyone I saw from Vancouver to Halifax was wearing a flower. The only poppy Ive seen in the week since I have been back is the one on my hat ( I have to look in the mirror to do that, pretty scary). Once in Zurich, years ago, I was wakened very early to what sounded like a small parade down in the street below my hotel. I asked what was going on and was told that it was Eleven-Eleven. A big day for celebration. It went on all day and through the nite. with bands of people walking around town in the streets and thru the pubs playing all sorts of instruments and general noise makers. It made quite an impression on me and Ive never forgotten what a day for celebration. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 03:08:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:08:00 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question References: <019001c16b1c$29060040$9c573841@hoytwma2> Message-ID: <3BEF3D11.BA099785@attglobal.net> Hoytwma2 ... or whoever ... It takes longer or shorter to fly from MIA to NYC or NYC to MIA depending on the winds on any given day you are flying. Period. Cheers! hoytwma2 wrote: > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired east or west. I did too. > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement occurs if the projectile > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / west fired round would > over shoot or undershoot the intended target wouldnt it? > The only reason I know anything about this at all is on account of helping > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the question was asked "Why > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York than from New York back". > I really like learning things from my kids or because of them. > > >From Nov 8th Nav Question > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of an object moving > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves along a north-south path, > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent deflection to the right From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 07:35:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 02:35:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: <154.3e45662.2920d5c6@aol.com> It is late at night and I am tired. I am gong to think about this until I fall asleep but I want to convey to you my thinking right now. I may be wrong. Lets leave the winds out of this. In a no wind condition. I think to fly between NY and Miami would take exactly the same time, provided the airspeed, altitude, etc., remained the same, regardless of which way you were going. For the sake of this explanation, let us assume that because of the rotation of the earth that Miami is moving from west to east at 1000 miles per hour and lets say that NYis exactly due north of Miami and is moving from west to east at 500 miles per hour. This of course is because the distance around the world is less as we get away from the equator so NY doesn't have to move as fast to make a complete circle every 24 hours as the runway closer to the equator does. Now lets assume our airplane travels at 200 mph and it is 1000 miles between NY and Miami. We have assumed a no wind condition which means the air we fly through at our 100 foot, or any other, altitude is traveling Through space west to east at the SAME speed as the ground directly under it. So as we are on the runway in our 200mph bird at Miami we have a west to east speed through space of 1000 mph, the same as the runway. We take off pull up the gear and head directly NORTH for a 5 hour flight.BUT as soon as we leave the runway we are in the air not on the ground so as we continue north our west to east speed through space, west to east, will. be exactly the same as the air we are passing through. When we get to NY the air we are in and the runway at NY and us will be moving west to east at 500 mph BUT we will have traveled through the air 1000 miles and Miami will be 1000 miles directly South of us. BUT we will have traveled through SPACE a curved course, a distance of 3000 miles or so. If we turn around and go back it would be within a second or so of the same time and distance. If there was no air on earth it would not of course work this way but then neither would us or the airplane. If we flew east to west or west to east our take off location and destination would be the same distance from the equator and hence there would be no deflection in my humble opinion. I think the girls test writer didn't know what he was talking about Am I wrong Bill Heller?. Good night. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 07:47:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 02:47:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: <78.1d8fce99.2920d87c@aol.com> The projectile from a gun because of its small size and high speed , even when fired through the air has some characteristics of ignoring the air and being in space so I'll talk about it when it is not so late. Sleepy Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 08:21:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:21:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question Message-ID: I just go out of bed. I haven't gone to sleep yet When flying from Miami to New York one would slow down a bit in route. When flying from New York to Miami one would speed up a bit. Hence, because of inertia the trip from New York to Miami would take a few seconds longer. Never mind Bill Heller. I was wrong. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 14:29:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:29:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Heller & Kevin Pearson Message-ID: Yes, Ray, I thought of Phylis's name last night and it was/is Dubois. She sent me a 1992 map of all of the 8th AF airfields, especially created for the 50th anniversary of the second "freindly invasion." You should see that map now, slightly torn, folded and refolded a thousand times, things people have drawn/written on it. It has become one of my most valued treasures. >From Norwich to Molesworth it takes, what, about two hours by car? Glad to have a good English "chap" as a member of this forum. I deeply value the good friends I have made in the UK who share my fondness (passion) for the 8th AF. Even the younger children in the UK seem to care more aout that which happened almost 60 years ago. Kevin >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Heller & Kevin Pearson >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:32:23 -0000 > >Firstly, for Bill. You are so right, Bill, to say that such competition >between fellow combatants was healthy, but that you never forgot that we >were all on the same side. Your kind words about my fellow countrymen, are >always appreciated as I know they come from the heart. Of course, there's >no >greater Anglophile than your goodself. > >Now in response to Kevin. Sorry, Kevin, but I do not have any info >concerning the intention of a group to attempt a purchase of the old >control >tower at Rackheath. I understand there is a still some 'wall art' to be >seen, but I've never seen it myself. Even though Rackheath is only a couple >of miles from where I now sit, it holds no special interest for me, as I am >an out and out 303rder, albeit an honorary one. > >I think the American lady who was the superintendant of the original 2nd >Air >Division Memorial Library, in Norwich, was called DuBois, or something >like >that. She was, as you rightly said, very helpful to all who visited. The >new >library is a credit to the 2ndAir Division and if the 1st Air Division >could >ever establish a similar memorial, somewhere in their operations area, it >would be a wonderful thing. I guess that it's now a bit too late for this >to >be a real proposition. > >Thanks guys, for replying > >Ray > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 15:19:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:19:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Veterans Day References: <019b01c16b22$3d86f780$9c573841@hoytwma2> Message-ID: <000001c16b90$67092600$a3e9fc3e@o7b6a3> Reference the corespondent (hoytwma2) who told of his experience in Canada and the wearing of red poppies, prior to Remembrance Day, or what you Americans call Veterans' Day (11 November). Throughout the UK we have been able to purchase, and wear, such poppies since the 1920's, to mark Remembrance Day. These go on sale to the public from perhaps the end of October until the actual day. The donation you hand to the collector/seller, either on your doorstep, or on the street corner, is entirely at your discretion. All the proceeds from the sale of these poppies goes to the British Legion, an organisation set up to assist war veterans who need financial help and/or are living in veterans' homes/hospitals and the like. Each year some many millions of pounds is raised, for this purpose, from the sale of these poppies. No self-respecting politician dares be seen without his/her poppy on television, or at a public appearance. Having said that, would you believe that this year the BBC has banned the wearing of these poppies by newscasters, on their television World Service! The reason, (would you believe it) is so as not to offend the peoples of foreign nations who we have been, or are, at war with! I, and most of my fellow countrymen, are appalled at such a restriction and our seeming cowardice at succumbing to the sensitivities of such nations. I cannot imagine such a thing would ever be tolerated (or imposed) in the United States of America. Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 18:05:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:05:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-24s References: <20011112173937.DCCBD53607@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3BF00F61.47979764@qwest.net> When Bill Spofford, eventually the Flight Engineer on the B-17 on which my uncle was co-pilot, was on leave in Kansas prior to movement overseas, his group was sent off without him. In a letter to me explaining how he became part of my uncle's crew he wrote: "I had been on leave from Topeka Army Air Base. On return my squadron had been shipped out. A B-24 group had moved in. I wanted nothing to do with them and requested a transfer. Was sent to Smoky Hill Air Base at Salina, Kansas. There I was assigned to Lt. Miller�s crew as a waist gunner." This was in March of '43, so I guess the "boxcars" had bad reputations even early in the war. Seems that, at least every now and then, you could "fight City Hall." Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 19:07:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:07:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest,Vol 1 #426 /msg #12-Rencher Message-ID: <23.14445cd6.292177d7@aol.com> --part1_23.14445cd6.292177d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit replying about message number 12 -comments from Rencher: When I graduated in April of 43, I asked for B-17 and combat. In about two months, I was on a B-17 flying as a copilot in combat. I did have a censure stamp and that's why I have alot of 303rd bg pictures, I censured my own pictures. Capt. Higgenbottom was in charge of the photo lab,. Everytime i went to get the crew pictures, he watched me all the time, but I made sure my Sgt. was getting pictures. I also packed up crews' belongings, who didn't return from a mission. I even forwarded a picture of a pretty girl to Gary Moncur ( for his .eyes only-heh). When I returned to the states after my first tour, some Cpl. must have seen my previous request because I went right into B-17 school and back over to the 303rd for combat duty after already having 25 missions under my belt. Funny how backwards the government could be...then and now!!! cheers... Bill Bergeron --part1_23.14445cd6.292177d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit replying about message number 12 -comments from Rencher:
When I graduated in April of 43, I asked for B-17 and combat. In about two months, I was on a B-17 flying as a copilot in combat. I did have a censure stamp and that's why I have alot of 303rd bg pictures, I censured my own pictures. Capt. Higgenbottom was in charge of the photo lab,. Everytime i went to get the crew pictures, he watched me all the time, but I made sure my Sgt. was getting pictures. I also packed up crews' belongings, who didn't return from a mission. I even forwarded a picture of a pretty girl to Gary Moncur ( for his .eyes only-heh). When I returned to the states after my first tour, some Cpl. must have seen my previous request because I went right into B-17 school and back over to the 303rd for combat duty after already having 25 missions under my belt. Funny how backwards the government could be...then and now!!!
cheers...
Bill Bergeron
--part1_23.14445cd6.292177d7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 22:46:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:46:05 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question References: <154.3e45662.2920d5c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BF0512D.C5C44AFE@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... You are not wrong, Jack ... but ... we live in a situation where we do not care one whit about Corialis force or any other quirk of nature. We go from MIA to NYC (or any other place) within reference to the manner in which we live. Nowthen, NORMALLY, when I sell a ticket to someone going from NYC to MIA and then tell them the times, they invariably ask ... "Why does it take me longer to fly TO Miami that back FROM it to NYC?" The answer is simple ... In the Northern Hemisphere, the prevailing winds are usually West to East. But, on the other hand, things do change and once in a while you have TAIL winds going TO Miami from NYC, which is far from the norm. It is sort of like in Europe when a Siberian High is over the Continent, it is not unusual to see a front actually move EAST to WEST instead of the USUAL way it does, ie., West to East. In the end, however, we live and exist in the here and now and all times are relative ... and relatives are the cause of all the trouble .... ahem. It is sort of like if you drop a marble from the edge of the table at the SAME time you FLIT a marble off into space. BOTH marbles will hit the floor (or the earth) at the SAME time ... now figure THAT one out! Me, I'd rather have a Beefeater on the rocks! Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > It is late at night and I am tired. I am gong to think about this until I > fall asleep but I want to convey to you my thinking right now. I may be > wrong. Lets leave the winds out of this. In a no wind condition. I think to > fly between NY and Miami would take exactly the same time, provided the > airspeed, altitude, etc., remained the same, regardless of which way you were > going. For the sake of this explanation, let us assume that because of the > rotation of the earth that Miami is moving from > west to east at 1000 miles per hour and lets say that NYis exactly due north > of Miami and is moving from west to east at 500 miles per hour. This of > course is because the distance around the world is less as we get away from > the equator so NY doesn't have to move as fast to make a complete circle > every 24 hours as the runway closer to the equator does. Now lets assume our > airplane travels at 200 mph and it is 1000 miles between NY and Miami. We > have assumed a no wind condition which means the air we fly through at our > 100 foot, or any other, altitude is traveling Through space west to east at > the SAME speed as the ground directly under it. So as we are on the runway in > our 200mph bird at Miami we have a west to east speed through space of 1000 > mph, the same as the runway. We take off pull up the gear and head directly > NORTH for a 5 hour flight.BUT as soon as we leave the runway we are in the > air not on the ground so as we continue north our west to east speed through > space, west to east, will. be exactly the same as the air we are passing > through. When we get to NY the air we are in and the runway at NY and us will > be moving west to east at 500 mph BUT we will have traveled through the air > 1000 miles and Miami will be 1000 miles directly South of us. BUT we will > have traveled through SPACE a curved course, a distance of 3000 miles or so. > If we turn around and go back it would be within a second or so of the same > time and distance. If there was no air on earth it would not of course work > this way but then neither would us or the airplane. > > If we flew east to west or west to east our take off location and > destination would be the same distance from the equator and hence there would > be no deflection in my humble opinion. I think the girls test writer didn't > know what he was talking about Am I wrong Bill Heller?. > Good night. Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 12 23:21:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:21:54 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest,Vol 1 #426 /msg #12-Rencher References: <23.14445cd6.292177d7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BF05992.7C670D5F@attglobal.net> --------------693D8BFE5E3B614195A086DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bergeron ... Anent your remarks about getting into B17s ... my reply some days ago mentioned how I worked my ass off to get to B17 training .... and .... the CO of my Advanced Flight School ESPECIALLY helped me to do it. He alone was responsible for me being to sent to "Specialized Four Engine School, Category B17" Imagine my surprise one day when this SAME former CO of my Flight School arrived at Molesworth and at one time, I was his CO! His name is CHUCK KERWIN ... a fellow I shall ALWAYS remember, for he was the backing I needed to get me into B17s! He is a member of the 303rd BGA and we correspond now and then. By the way, Hi, Bergeron. Remember all those great days we spent in the same barracks? Cheers! WCH Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > replying about message number 12 -comments from Rencher: > When I graduated in April of 43, I asked for B-17 and combat. In about > two months, I was on a B-17 flying as a copilot in combat. I did have > a censure stamp and that's why I have alot of 303rd bg pictures, I > censured my own pictures. Capt. Higgenbottom was in charge of the > photo lab,. Everytime i went to get the crew pictures, he watched me > all the time, but I made sure my Sgt. was getting pictures. I also > packed up crews' belongings, who didn't return from a mission. I even > forwarded a picture of a pretty girl to Gary Moncur ( for his .eyes > only-heh). When I returned to the states after my first tour, some > Cpl. must have seen my previous request because I went right into B-17 > school and back over to the 303rd for combat duty after already having > 25 missions under my belt. Funny how backwards the government could > be...then and now!!! > cheers... > Bill Bergeron --------------693D8BFE5E3B614195A086DE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bergeron ...

Anent your remarks about getting into B17s ... my reply some days ago mentioned how I worked my ass off to get to B17 training .... and .... the CO of my Advanced Flight School ESPECIALLY helped me to do it. He alone was responsible for me being to sent to "Specialized Four Engine School, Category B17"

Imagine my surprise one day when this SAME former CO of my Flight School arrived at Molesworth and at one time, I was his CO! His name is CHUCK KERWIN ... a fellow I shall ALWAYS remember, for he was the backing I needed to get me into B17s! He is a member of the 303rd BGA and we correspond now and then.

By the way, Hi, Bergeron. Remember all those great days we spent in the same barracks?

Cheers!

WCH

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

replying about message number 12 -comments from Rencher:
When I graduated in April of 43, I asked for B-17 and combat. In about two months, I was on a B-17 flying as a copilot in combat. I did have a censure stamp and that's why I have alot of 303rd bg pictures, I censured my own pictures. Capt. Higgenbottom was in charge of the photo lab,. Everytime i went to get the crew pictures, he watched me all the time, but I made sure my Sgt. was getting pictures. I also packed up crews' belongings, who didn't return from a mission. I even forwarded a picture of a pretty girl to Gary Moncur ( for his .eyes only-heh). When I returned to the states after my first tour, some Cpl. must have seen my previous request because I went right into B-17 school and back over to the 303rd for combat duty after already having 25 missions under my belt. Funny how backwards the government could be...then and now!!!
cheers...
Bill Bergeron

--------------693D8BFE5E3B614195A086DE-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 07:53:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:53:42 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Kevin Pearson References: Message-ID: <001201c16c18$f9ac0620$3d24fd3e@o7b6a3> You're right , Kevin, a keeping-within-the-speed-limits drive, from Norwich to Molesworth, is somewhere between 1 hour 45 mins and two hours. I think the reason people of my generation, just kids when you were over here, care about what happened 60 odd years ago, is because the war happened on our doorstep. We have now passed on our experiences to our children and grand children and this helps to keep the memory alive. I, in fact, give talks to 9-12 year olds on the wartime blitz (bombing raids on Norwich) Sadly, the experiences you all had over there, on 11 September, will serve to show the present younger generation that war is not always some detached experience, but is something that can, as it were, walk up your garden path and and blast in your front door. I believe that they will emerage all the stronger and wiser for the experience, although it is one I wish they did not have to experience. Kind regards Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 15:30:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question In-Reply-To: <20011112173938.06F41535CC@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20011113153051.63277.qmail@web10802.mail.yahoo.com> Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia flush backwards? Just wondering... Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent air crashes over here on the east coast creating such a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night an aircraft would "come down" without warning somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash seems to be a mechanical problem" :o Todd (303rd A637) > Message: 2 > From: "hoytwma2" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > east or west. I did too. > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > occurs if the projectile > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > west fired round would > over shoot or undershoot the intended target wouldn't > it? > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > on account of helping > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > question was asked "Why > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > than from New York back". > I really like learning things from my kids or > because of them. > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > an object moving > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > along a north-south path, > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > deflection to the right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 18:51:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:51:10 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question References: <20011113153051.63277.qmail@web10802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF16B9D.B8FFCDE2@attglobal.net> Holrit ... Reur concern over why toilets flush the wrong way down under .... recall that in the Northern Hemisphere the Low centers have the winds circle COUNTER clockwise while the High centers have the winds circle CLOCKWISE .... in the Southern Hemisphere it is OPPOSITE. In the Northern Hemisphere winds generally flow from West to East ... at times I can recall flying into HEADWINDS of 200 kph in the Northern Pacific while approaching Japan. And once, over Mt. Fujiama, I clocked a headwind of 220 knots. Of course this was in the jet stream ... but seldom have people even realized that the winds can get so strong. I once flew a flight from Tokyo to San Francisco, when, while I was IN the jet stream, I enjoyed tail winds of 210 knots! Cheers! WCH Todd Hollritt wrote: > Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia > flush backwards? Just wondering... > > Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent > air crashes over here on the east coast creating such > a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have > been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and > "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night > an aircraft would "come down" without warning > somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and > ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and > instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the > BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the > "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to > hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash > seems to be a mechanical problem" :o > > Todd (303rd A637) > > > Message: 2 > > From: "hoytwma2" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > > east or west. I did too. > > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > > occurs if the projectile > > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > > west fired round would > > over shoot or undershoot the intended target > wouldn't > > it? > > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > > on account of helping > > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > > question was asked "Why > > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > > than from New York back". > > I really like learning things from my kids or > > because of them. > > > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > > an object moving > > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > > along a north-south path, > > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > > deflection to the right > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 18:45:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:45:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question References: <20011113153051.63277.qmail@web10802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF16A61.146783C6@attglobal.net> Holrit ... Your sense of history v.v. the trials and tribulations the UK suffered in and PRIOR to OUR getting into WW#2 ( the one we won) ... is a bit off. England suffered heavily in 1940 and all through the rest of those "war years" with the blitz ... the little blitz was in '44 and '45 with the V1s and V2s. But the Battle of Britain, circa 1940, in which the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe and succeeded in making Goering think twice about the possible invasion of the British Isles ... is what turned the tide. How furtunate, though totally diminished in size and scope ... it was that the Germans did not know that the RAF was then on its last legs. I had American pilot friends of mine in the RAF at that time. We called it the Eagle Squadron. England was fighting that war quite a time prior to our entry. They were suffering the blitz long before we were even attacked at Pearl ... I believe we should never forget this ... ie., the stalwart courage of the British people when invasion AND defeat seemed very very possible. This delaying action ... if you can call it that ... is what allowed us to be finally victorious in WW#2 (the one we won). Cheers! WCH Todd Hollritt wrote: > Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia > flush backwards? Just wondering... > > Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent > air crashes over here on the east coast creating such > a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have > been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and > "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night > an aircraft would "come down" without warning > somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and > ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and > instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the > BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the > "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to > hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash > seems to be a mechanical problem" :o > > Todd (303rd A637) > > > Message: 2 > > From: "hoytwma2" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > > east or west. I did too. > > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > > occurs if the projectile > > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > > west fired round would > > over shoot or undershoot the intended target > wouldn't > > it? > > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > > on account of helping > > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > > question was asked "Why > > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > > than from New York back". > > I really like learning things from my kids or > > because of them. > > > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > > an object moving > > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > > along a north-south path, > > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > > deflection to the right > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > http://personals.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 20:10:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question In-Reply-To: <3BF16B9D.B8FFCDE2@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > In the Northern Hemisphere winds generally flow from West to East .. Just a slight addition to this. In the temperate zones of both Northern and Southern Hemisphere, the winds generally flow west to east, however in the tropical and polar areas of both hemispheres, the airflow is generally east to west. Jet streams, which are generally in the temperate zones move west to east, and are caused by the coriolis effect. (BTW, I don't understand the coriolis effect, I'm just repeating what I read.) Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 13 21:24:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:24:03 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The U.K. in wartime References: <20011113153051.63277.qmail@web10802.mail.yahoo.com> <3BF16A61.146783C6@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001001c16c89$9ab72de0$4124fd3e@o7b6a3> Todd Holritt posed the question about planes crashing during the war years and how did us Brits cope with these disasters? In truth there were numerous such incidents, involving both USAAF and RAF planes. In fact we civilians would get to know little of these losses as there was such a thing as news censorship. One of the worst incidents happened right here, over Norwich, when the 467th BG lost some seven B24's. (If my son-in-law had not 'borrowed' my book of words I could tell you the precise date). The details were that the group were returning to Rackheath, Norfolk after a daylight raid over Germany, but having been hung-up over the target and encountering heavy flak, they were late getting back to their base and it was dark by the time they arrived on final approach to Rackheath. The crews were somewhat relaxed, having survived another mission, and being just about stood-down, were taken by surprise by a German fighter which had tagged along behind them and set about them as they approached Rackheath. In the resulting confusion he managed to inflict considerable casualties, helped by some frantic fire from the B24's, resulting in one or two aircraft falling to 'friendly fire' from other of the group's aircraft. (I've never quite understood how it gets to be called 'friendly fire', I'd say it was decidedly unfriendly!) The resultant carnage left seven aircraft crashing in and around Norwich. To add to the confusion the control tower turned the landing lights off, which meant planes had to scatter to whichever field they could get to. As there was an American airfield about every 7-10 miles throughout East Anglia, there were plenty to choose from. As I say many allied aircraft were lost over the UK but it never made the papers and was only passed on, mouth to mouth by civilians who might have witnessed it. Bill Heller has, once again, said complimentary things about the Brits and how we had endured bombings ever since 1940, with 42 & 43 being the heaviest. I was born just before the war, but as a very small boy of five years old, I can recall a little of the air raids. In fact we lost our house in one such raid in April '43. I lost an uncle, an aunt and two cousins in one such air-raid. It was simply a way of life to me, although I know my parents were greatly concerned by it all, with four kids to look after. My dad lost an eye, his sense of smell and sustained injuries which resulted in him being declared 80% disabled, as a result of one raid. He was a fireman during the blitz and sustained his injuries when his fire engine crashed into a bomb crater, seconds after the bomb that caused it, had dropped. They were hard times, but we came through it all, with a sense of humour. Thanks for all your kind words, Bill, they are appreciated. Regards Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 00:26:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:26:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question Message-ID: <105.c453092.29231445@aol.com> Bill Jones, The undersigned will explain the Coriolis effect to you, but he can't do it now as he has a meeting in one hour and is all dirty right now. If the meeting is not to long and he is not to sleepy he will do it tonight.If otherwise tomorrow. SO stand by. Jack Rencher, The Undersigned From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 02:58:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:58:23 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <000901c16cb8$3a689800$02000003@r1m1z6> I am John D. Alger. I live (for now) in Sequim (pronounced skwim) Washington. I am married to Linda Kay Alger. We have no children, though we do have several pets. Linda is partners in a 2-location Christian bookstore business and I am training to be a 911 Dispatch Officer for Jefferson County Washington. I retired from the Air Force in 1995 having served 11 years enlisted and 11 years as an officer. My tours included Monterey California, RAF Chicksands England, RAF Digby England, Misawa Japan, Kunia Hawaii, Berlin Germany, and Soto Cano AB, Honduras. Linda graduated from the USAF Academy and served in Hellenikon Greece, Misawa Japan, Hickam Hawaii, and RAF Chicksands England. She resigned her commission in 1995. I bid you all a happy Veterans' Day 2001!!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 03:01:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:01:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request Message-ID: <001601c16cb8$ab63a0e0$02000003@r1m1z6> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C16C75.9CA95100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am doing research on Lt. Albert A. Albino who was a P-38 pilot with = the 38th Fighter Squadron in Nuthampstead. Lieutenant Albino was KIA on = 29 Nov '43. =20 The VFW Post 224 in Aberdeen Washington is being renamed "The Albert A. = Albino Memorial Post". I am doing this research on behalf of Post 224 = members and my father, Bill Alger who is past Post 224 and District 5 = Commander and Post 224 and District 5 Chaplain. Here is the information I have on Lt. Albino Date of Birth 7 April 1919 Hometown Aberdeen, Washington Nickname Porky Serial Number O-743300 Unit of Assignment 38th fighter squadron, 55th fighter group, 66th air = division, 8th air force Pilot Rating C/G - 12 April 1943 Air Frame P-38H5LO Last Mission 29 Nov 1943 - Bomber escort=20 Mission Result Shot down over Hoogeween, Netherlands A/C Tail Number 42-67051 Award Purple Heart Missing Air Crew Report Number 01428 Remains Identified 19 Sep 79 (ident'ed fm remains of unknown X9444 = recovered Mar 1978)=20 Final Resting Place Mount Calvary Cemetery, Portland, Oregon. Additional information - The Dept of the Army Report of 19Sept 1979 = states about Lt. Albino's final act,=20 An eyewitness who was on duty at the time remembered that during World = War II, an aircraft had crashed at the railway station about 10-15 yards = in front of him, going almost straight down through rails and sleepers. = The Germans had ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to repair = one of the main railway lines. This eyewitness report is part of "The Report of Recovery" prepared by = the Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air = Force. The entire report is part of the Dept of the Army Report dated = 19 Sep 79 that identified the remains of unknown X9444 to those of Lt. = Albino. **It is my belief that Lt. Albino sacrificed himself by deliberately = crashing into the Nazi rail station/marshalling yard. It would be in = keeping with his character (I've read several newspaper articles about = Porky), to sacrifice himself in support of his comrades and brothers. = Since rail was the Nazi's primary means of moving troops and supplies = and "(T)he Germans.ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to = repair one of the main railway lines." Lt Albino's must have = single-handedly had a major effect on the Nazi war effort. For this reason, I would like to submit Lt. Albino for additional = recognition. In order to do so, I need incontestable proof of his act = of gallantry. I need The Report of Recovery" prepared by the = Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air Force = which contains the eyewitness report. Can any of you help?? ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C16C75.9CA95100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am doing research on Lt. Albert A. Albino who was = a P-38=20 pilot with the 38th Fighter Squadron in Nuthampstead. Lieutenant = Albino=20 was KIA on 29 Nov '43.

The VFW Post 224 in Aberdeen Washington is being = renamed "The=20 Albert A. Albino Memorial Post". I am doing this research on = behalf of=20 Post 224 members and my father, Bill Alger who is past Post 224 and = District 5=20 Commander and Post 224 and District 5 Chaplain.

Here is the information I have on Lt. = Albino

Date of Birth   7 April=20 1919
Hometown   Aberdeen,=20 Washington
Nickname   Porky
Serial Number=20    O-743300
Unit of Assignment  38th fighter = squadron, 55th fighter group, 66th air division, 8th air force
Pilot=20 Rating   C/G - 12 April 1943
Air=20 Frame   P-38H5LO
Last Mission   29 Nov = 1943 -=20 Bomber escort
Mission Result   Shot down over = Hoogeween,=20 Netherlands
A/C Tail=20 Number   42-67051
Award    Purple=20 Heart
Missing Air Crew Report Number 01428
Remains=20 Identified  19 Sep 79 (ident'ed fm remains of unknown X9444 = recovered=20 Mar 1978)
Final Resting Place  Mount Calvary Cemetery, = Portland,=20 Oregon.

Additional information - The Dept of the Army Report = of 19Sept=20 1979 states about Lt. Albino's final act,
An eyewitness who was on = duty at=20 the time remembered that during World War II, an aircraft had crashed at = the=20 railway station about 10-15 yards in front of him, going almost straight = down=20 through rails and sleepers. The Germans had ordered the hole = filled up as=20 soon as possible to repair one of the main railway lines.

This eyewitness report is part of "The Report = of=20 Recovery" prepared by the Identification and Recovery Officer of the = Royal=20 Netherlands Air Force. The entire report is part of the Dept = of the=20 Army Report dated 19 Sep 79 that identified the remains of unknown X9444 = to=20 those of Lt. Albino.

**It is my belief that Lt. Albino sacrificed himself = by=20 deliberately crashing into the Nazi rail station/marshalling yard. = It=20 would be in keeping with his character (I've read several newspaper = articles=20 about Porky), to sacrifice himself in support of his comrades and=20 brothers. Since rail was the Nazi's primary means of moving troops = and=20 supplies and "(T)he Germans=85ordered the hole filled up as soon as = possible to=20 repair one of the main railway lines." Lt Albino's must have = single-handedly had=20 a major effect on the Nazi war effort.

For this reason, I would like to submit Lt. Albino = for=20 additional recognition. In order to do so, I need incontestable = proof of=20 his act of gallantry. I need The Report of = Recovery"=20 prepared by the Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal = Netherlands Air=20 Force which contains the eyewitness report.

Can any of you help??

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C16C75.9CA95100-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 03:08:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:08:53 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings Message-ID: Quick note to let y'all know that I am back. I have relocated from Molesworth to Omaha, and am still working for ACS Defense, but now at HQ US Strategic Command. Looking forward to seeing many of the veterans at next year's reunion in Missouri. Brian McGuire _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 03:14:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:14:25 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket dedication from the UK Message-ID: Kit - If you get up to Molesworth, stop in at the Fox Pub, on the A14 at the Molesworth turnoff. It was a favorite watering hole for the 303rd guys. Also the Swan in Old Weston right by the main entrance to Molesworth. And be sure to stop by the entrance to the base to see the memorial to the 303rd. There is public access (be sure to sign the guest book). And while you are in the area you might look up Robin Beeby in nearby Kettering; he is the expert in the UK on the 303rd and could give you any crew info you want. Cheers, mate. Brian McGuire >From: "Kit Harvey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket dedication from the UK >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:46:45 -0000 > >Guys and Gals > >I'm stuck here and I need you're advice, ever since I was a kid I've heard >stories from my Grandfather about what he and my Uncle did during WW2, my >uncle did 2 tours in Lancs over Germany and my Grandfather was RAF ground >crew and a drummer in the station band, he loves Glenn Miller, he probably >re-fuelled some of you guys coming in to the UK, I know he was based near >Shrewsbury for a time, anyway in my spare time I try and visit what's left >of some of the old airfields near me, Bovingdon, Steeple Morden, >Bassingbourn Debden etc. for me its always a moving experience, standing on >the old runways wondering what thoughts and feelings were going on in the >same spot 60 years ago, feeling so moved by the stories I hear about what >those young men did for the us then, I sometimes realise being 29 that I >would have been thought an old boy by now if Id been around then. > >But I've got a modern A2 flight jacket and I'd like to dedicate it to the >303rd BG, a crew and a 17, its a hard job for me as Id like one for each >crew, BG and FG there was, but who do I dedicate mine to Guys? if possible >Id like to be able to trace the whole history of the crew, get some first >hand accounts, find out who the crew were, how many missions, maybe get >some pictures of an original Jacket, the plane, and even some old base >pictures, so I can go back to the station and try and place the photo's, of >course Ill send you copies, of the base, the local pub that you used to >drink in, with some luck the 17 is still around, in some display somewhere >but if anyone is reading this who was part of a crew and maybe has some >time >to help me out with this I would be very grateful, I guess its my way of >saying thank you to all the Airmen, but it would be an interesting little >project and trade of information and pictures, Thunder Bird maybe? the >site >has masses of information. > >Kit Harvey, London UK ><< winmail.dat >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 04:01:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 04:01:33 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Cold Weather Flight Gear Message-ID: By the way, the POW display at the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum in Savannah is alone worth the trip. If you want to read a really excellent book on POWs I recommend one written by a friend of mine here in Omaha - "Stalag Luft III," by Art Durand, with lots of coverage of the Great Escape. Brian McGuire >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Cold Weather Flight Gear >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 18:55:52 -0500 > > > >On 8 Nov 01, at 17:44, Wmjdallas@aol.com wrote: > > > When I got to POW camp I learned that the radio used to pick up the BBC >was a > > crystal set and some of the wiring came from the "Bunny Suits," so they > > served well and often. > >About 30 years I visited the museum at Wright Patterson AFB, and >they had a nice display of all sorts of things that were made by the >AF POWs. It was really amazing what you guys made out of >nothing. I've always wanted to visit there again, although I don't >know if that display is still there. > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 05:48:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:48:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Coriolis what? Message-ID: <007801c16ccf$f12a5d00$6c7ae03f@hoytwma2> Gentlemen, I am enjoying your responses to the Coriolis question very much tho not quite as much as my daughter Taylor (14). She especially loved it when Jack said that her "test writer didnt know what he was talking about". You guys are great, thanks Bill Hoyt This entry contributed by Leonardo Motta The Coriolis force is a fictitious force exerted on a body when it moves in a rotating reference frame. It is called a fictitious force because it is a by-product of measuring coordinates with respect to a rotating coordinate system as opposed to an actual "push or pull." http://www.treasure-troves.com/physics/CoriolisForce.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 06:53:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:53:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question Message-ID: Greetings Bill Jones et all, First a few facts.(1) An object that is not moving will continue not moving until some force moves it.(2) a moving object will continue to move in a straight line at a constant speed unless some force causes it to stop, turn, slow down, speed up, or turn. (3) Warm air is lighter than cold air, (hence will rise like a hot air baloon.) The area around the equator is generally the hottest area on earth The world is about 25,000 mile around near the equater and makes one revolution every 24 hours, so any spot near the equater is moving a bit over 1000 miles per hour. The air near the equator gets warmed by the hot ground, becomes lighter and starts rising. More air comes in under it and is also warmed and starts rising. All this air is moving west to east at about 1000 miles as is the ground under it. It is constantly being pushed up by the warm air under it. When it gets up to some 25000 to 40000 feet it begins to drift north and south. There is no room for it to go east and west as more air is coming up there as the equator goes all the way around the earth & air is coming up all the way around and spreading out north and south at altitude but heading east at about 1000 miles as is the ground under it. When this air gets about half way to the North or south poles it cools off a bit and begins to come down a bit. It is still traveling east at about 1000 miles per hour as it never ran into any thing to slow it down.BUT The distance around the earth is less up there in the northern or southern hemisphere so any spot on the surface of the earth is traveling only 750 or so miles per hour. So the air is moving west to east about 250 MPH faster than the ground under it. The distance around the world up here is only about15000 miles and we have 25000 miles of air from the equator so it has to whip around a bit to fit in. The air already up here and mountains and trees and etc. slow it down a bit but now you know Where the jet stream comes from and what causes the so called Corollas effect. When you pull the plug out of the sink the water in the north of the bowl heads for the drain. The drain being closer to the equator is traveling east faster than the water from the North so the water falls behind (turns west) The water in the South end of the basin heads north towards the drain. It is moving east faster than the drain so it turns east and now you have the whirlpool. If you are still reading, Good night Bill Jones. What do you think Dear Friend WCH? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 13:41:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:41:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request References: <001601c16cb8$ab63a0e0$02000003@r1m1z6> Message-ID: <000c01c16d12$163e38e0$7c68db40@billowen> John, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you. I know a war historian in the Netherlands. I will write to him and see if he can help. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "john and linda alger" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request I am doing research on Lt. Albert A. Albino who was a P-38 pilot with the 38th Fighter Squadron in Nuthampstead. Lieutenant Albino was KIA on 29 Nov '43. The VFW Post 224 in Aberdeen Washington is being renamed "The Albert A. Albino Memorial Post". I am doing this research on behalf of Post 224 members and my father, Bill Alger who is past Post 224 and District 5 Commander and Post 224 and District 5 Chaplain. Here is the information I have on Lt. Albino Date of Birth 7 April 1919 Hometown Aberdeen, Washington Nickname Porky Serial Number O-743300 Unit of Assignment 38th fighter squadron, 55th fighter group, 66th air division, 8th air force Pilot Rating C/G - 12 April 1943 Air Frame P-38H5LO Last Mission 29 Nov 1943 - Bomber escort Mission Result Shot down over Hoogeween, Netherlands A/C Tail Number 42-67051 Award Purple Heart Missing Air Crew Report Number 01428 Remains Identified 19 Sep 79 (ident'ed fm remains of unknown X9444 recovered Mar 1978) Final Resting Place Mount Calvary Cemetery, Portland, Oregon. Additional information - The Dept of the Army Report of 19Sept 1979 states about Lt. Albino's final act, An eyewitness who was on duty at the time remembered that during World War II, an aircraft had crashed at the railway station about 10-15 yards in front of him, going almost straight down through rails and sleepers. The Germans had ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to repair one of the main railway lines. This eyewitness report is part of "The Report of Recovery" prepared by the Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air Force. The entire report is part of the Dept of the Army Report dated 19 Sep 79 that identified the remains of unknown X9444 to those of Lt. Albino. **It is my belief that Lt. Albino sacrificed himself by deliberately crashing into the Nazi rail station/marshalling yard. It would be in keeping with his character (I've read several newspaper articles about Porky), to sacrifice himself in support of his comrades and brothers. Since rail was the Nazi's primary means of moving troops and supplies and "(T)he Germans.ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to repair one of the main railway lines." Lt Albino's must have single-handedly had a major effect on the Nazi war effort. For this reason, I would like to submit Lt. Albino for additional recognition. In order to do so, I need incontestable proof of his act of gallantry. I need The Report of Recovery" prepared by the Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air Force which contains the eyewitness report. Can any of you help?? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 14:10:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:10:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14 Nov 01, at 1:53, Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > First a few facts.(1) ....... Thanks for the lession. That explained the Jet streams pretty good. I'm still a bit confused about why the surface winds in the tropical and polar zones go west, but that's another thing, perhaps. The part about the air rising at the equator and drifting to the north (and south) at high altitude has always interested me. They had a PBS show a while back on the Catabatic (?sp?) winds in Antartica, which was interesting. Bottom line was that all the air that rose at the equator and moved to the poles, then comes down at the poles. At the south pole, the air coming down at the poles has to go north, and since this air came from high in the atmosphere, it is very cold, and very dry. Apparently they never have any storms or weather systems at the poles for this reason, and despite the apparent abundance of snow, the south pole is basically a desert with respect to precipitation. Anyway, if you ever get a chance to see that PBS show, definatiely do. But I found it interesting also with respect to the current discussion in that when that air initially heads north, some force eventually starts it curving to the west. Same at the north pole. Perhaps it is simply that the angular velocity reduced to zero at the poles, and when it moved north (or south at the north pole), that the earth is just moving underneith it. Ie the air is still, but the earth is moving. I guess that would explain the poles, but the "westerly trade winds" in the tropics is still a mystery to me, unless it is just turbulence caused by the jet stream. Anyway sorry this discussion got off topic. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 14:37:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:37:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Ray Cossey Message-ID: Ray: I'm not a veteran of WWII, I'm only 44 years young (got to say that now). And I too give talks to school children about the war. I have two that I give and the most popular is the one where I went to Germany and found a couple of 91st BG Forts lost 16.8.44. I have some of what I found (most was returned to Bassingbourn), and a ton of photos that I que up in PowerPoint. My other is a summary of the Eighth Air Force. If you want this last one, let me know and I will send it your way. Cheers (What I wouldn't give for a pint of your good beer!) Kevin >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To: Kevin Pearson >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:53:42 -0000 > >You're right , Kevin, a keeping-within-the-speed-limits drive, from Norwich >to Molesworth, is somewhere between 1 hour 45 mins and two hours. > >I think the reason people of my generation, just kids when you were over >here, care about what happened 60 odd years ago, is because the war >happened >on our doorstep. We have now passed on our experiences to our children and >grand children and this helps to keep the memory alive. I, in fact, give >talks to 9-12 year olds on the wartime blitz (bombing raids on Norwich) > >Sadly, the experiences you all had over there, on 11 September, will serve >to show the present younger generation that war is not always some detached >experience, but is something that can, as it were, walk up your garden path >and and blast in your front door. >I believe that they will emerage all the stronger and wiser for the >experience, although it is one I wish they did not have to experience. > >Kind regards > >Ray Cossey > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 14:54:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:54:08 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Heller and Holrit Message-ID: Bill and Todd: Ponder this. What if Hitler had allowed his generals to wipe out the Allied Forces at Dunkirk and immediately launched an invasion of Britain. Talk about a cold sweat! Do you think we would have first gone after Japan, then into Europe, or do you think the would have mobilized and launched the invasion from Italy through North Africa? Britain stood alone in 1940, and Bill you are absolutely correct, we should never forget what the English suffered before we entered the war. And they rationed things into the 1950s - the 1950s! The British stand tall in my book! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:45:53 -0800 > >Holrit ... > >Your sense of history v.v. the trials and tribulations the UK suffered >in and PRIOR to OUR getting into WW#2 ( the one we won) ... is a bit >off. England suffered heavily in 1940 and all through the rest of those >"war years" with the blitz ... the little blitz was in '44 and '45 with >the V1s and V2s. But the Battle of Britain, circa 1940, in which the RAF >defeated the Luftwaffe and succeeded in making Goering think twice about >the possible invasion of the British Isles ... is what turned the tide. >How furtunate, though totally diminished in size and scope ... it was >that the Germans did not know that the RAF was then on its last legs. I >had American pilot friends of mine in the RAF at that time. We called it >the Eagle Squadron. > >England was fighting that war quite a time prior to our entry. They were >suffering the blitz long before we were even attacked at Pearl ... > >I believe we should never forget this ... ie., the stalwart courage of >the British people when invasion AND defeat seemed very very possible. >This delaying action ... if you can call it that ... is what allowed us >to be finally victorious in WW#2 (the one we won). > >Cheers! > >WCH > > > >Todd Hollritt wrote: > > > Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia > > flush backwards? Just wondering... > > > > Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent > > air crashes over here on the east coast creating such > > a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have > > been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and > > "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night > > an aircraft would "come down" without warning > > somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and > > ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and > > instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the > > BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the > > "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to > > hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash > > seems to be a mechanical problem" :o > > > > Todd (303rd A637) > > > > > Message: 2 > > > From: "hoytwma2" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > > > east or west. I did too. > > > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > > > occurs if the projectile > > > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > > > west fired round would > > > over shoot or undershoot the intended target > > wouldn't > > > it? > > > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > > > on account of helping > > > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > > > question was asked "Why > > > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > > > than from New York back". > > > I really like learning things from my kids or > > > because of them. > > > > > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > > > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > > > an object moving > > > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > > > along a north-south path, > > > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > > > deflection to the right > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 18:34:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:34:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings Message-ID: thanks for your assists to 303rd, in england. pleased you are state side. happy thanksgiving in usa spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 18:45:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:45:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Ray Cossey Message-ID: <2f.1dacc265.292415b2@aol.com> kevin, please send it to me also. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 19:42:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:42:54 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Heller and Holrit References: Message-ID: <3BF2C93F.41709119@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... FYI, it was not the Allies on the beaches at Dunquirque (sic) .... it was the British. We had not yet entered the fray. As to the "what if" I can only say thank God that (a) Hitler did not decide to cross the Channel and (b) that the USA came into the fray when they did. And, I say this latter regardless of those arm-chair generals who like to say that FDR "arranged" to "allow" the Japanese to attack Pearl. The ONLY thing I have against our high command anent Pearl Harbor, is, that despite what they were told, NO commander marshalls all his forces in one spot as did those in command at Pearl when it was attacked. For those who "think" FDR "arranged" to "allow" the Japanese to attack Pearl ... yes, the threat of Japan was there .... but then I give you. today, the constant threats of the PRC telling us how they have missiles aimed at our cities. Ponder that. Should we perhaps "allow" some type of attack so we can then fight them ... as we WILL one day if they do not clean up their act? Though the Nips DID pose a threat in 1940 and 1941, I do NOT buy that time-worn phrase that FDR somehow "allowed" it. In conclusion, though we Yanks came in when definitely needed, we must thank the Brits for the fine show they put on until we did come in ... While you are pondering ... ponder this: The THREE enemies which America has beaten on the field of battle are today our finest Allies and friends. The BRITS ... THE GERMANS ... THE NIPS .... (I have a wee bit of concern anent the latter). I firmly believe that when you respect your enemy, though fighting him fiercely, he is a worthy opponent. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill and Todd: Ponder this. What if Hitler had allowed his generals to > wipe out the Allied Forces at Dunkirk and immediately launched an invasion > of Britain. Talk about a cold sweat! Do you think we would have first gone > after Japan, then into Europe, or do you think the would have mobilized and > launched the invasion from Italy through North Africa? > > Britain stood alone in 1940, and Bill you are absolutely correct, we should > never forget what the English suffered before we entered the war. And they > rationed things into the 1950s - the 1950s! The British stand tall in my > book! > > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question > >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:45:53 -0800 > > > >Holrit ... > > > >Your sense of history v.v. the trials and tribulations the UK suffered > >in and PRIOR to OUR getting into WW#2 ( the one we won) ... is a bit > >off. England suffered heavily in 1940 and all through the rest of those > >"war years" with the blitz ... the little blitz was in '44 and '45 with > >the V1s and V2s. But the Battle of Britain, circa 1940, in which the RAF > >defeated the Luftwaffe and succeeded in making Goering think twice about > >the possible invasion of the British Isles ... is what turned the tide. > >How furtunate, though totally diminished in size and scope ... it was > >that the Germans did not know that the RAF was then on its last legs. I > >had American pilot friends of mine in the RAF at that time. We called it > >the Eagle Squadron. > > > >England was fighting that war quite a time prior to our entry. They were > >suffering the blitz long before we were even attacked at Pearl ... > > > >I believe we should never forget this ... ie., the stalwart courage of > >the British people when invasion AND defeat seemed very very possible. > >This delaying action ... if you can call it that ... is what allowed us > >to be finally victorious in WW#2 (the one we won). > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > > > > > >Todd Hollritt wrote: > > > > > Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia > > > flush backwards? Just wondering... > > > > > > Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent > > > air crashes over here on the east coast creating such > > > a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have > > > been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and > > > "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night > > > an aircraft would "come down" without warning > > > somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and > > > ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and > > > instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the > > > BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the > > > "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to > > > hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash > > > seems to be a mechanical problem" :o > > > > > > Todd (303rd A637) > > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > > From: "hoytwma2" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > > > > east or west. I did too. > > > > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > > > > occurs if the projectile > > > > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > > > > west fired round would > > > > over shoot or undershoot the intended target > > > wouldn't > > > > it? > > > > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > > > > on account of helping > > > > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > > > > question was asked "Why > > > > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > > > > than from New York back". > > > > I really like learning things from my kids or > > > > because of them. > > > > > > > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > > > > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > > > > an object moving > > > > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > > > > along a north-south path, > > > > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > > > > deflection to the right > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 19:31:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:31:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question References: Message-ID: <3BF2C693.B3675D9E@attglobal.net> Fine, Jack Rencher .... Where do you get all your research material? Or is it your inherent knowledge with which you are endowed? Cheers, chum .... WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Greetings Bill Jones et all, > First a few facts.(1) An object that is not moving will continue not > moving until some force moves it.(2) a moving object will continue to move in > a straight line at a constant speed unless some force causes it to stop, > turn, slow down, speed up, or turn. (3) Warm air is lighter than cold air, > (hence will rise like a hot air baloon.) The area around the equator is > generally the hottest area on earth > > The world is about 25,000 mile around near the equater and makes one > revolution every 24 hours, so any spot near the equater is moving a bit > over 1000 miles per hour. The air near the equator gets warmed by the hot > ground, becomes lighter and starts rising. More air comes in under it and is > also warmed and starts rising. All this air is moving west to east at about > 1000 miles as is the ground under it. It is constantly being pushed up by the > warm air under it. When it gets up to some 25000 to 40000 feet it begins to > drift north and south. There is no room for it to go east and west as more > air is coming up there as the equator goes all the way around the earth & air > is coming up all the way around and spreading out north and south at altitude > but heading east at about 1000 miles as is the ground under it. When this air > gets about half way to the North or south poles it cools off a bit and begins > to come down a bit. It is still traveling east at about 1000 miles per hour > as it never ran into any thing to slow it down.BUT The distance around the > earth is less up there in the northern or southern hemisphere so any spot on > the surface of the earth is traveling only 750 or so miles per hour. So the > air is moving west to east about 250 MPH faster than the ground under it. The > distance around the world up here is only about15000 miles and we have 25000 > miles of air from the equator so it has to whip around a bit to fit in. The > air already up here and mountains and trees and etc. slow it down a bit but > now you know Where the jet stream comes from and what causes the so called > Corollas effect. > When you pull the plug out of the sink the water in the north of the > bowl heads for the drain. The drain being closer to the equator is traveling > east faster than the water from the North so the water falls behind (turns > west) The water in the South end of the basin heads north towards the drain. > It is moving east faster than the drain so it turns east and now you have the > whirlpool. > > If you are still reading, Good night Bill Jones. What do you think Dear > Friend WCH? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 20:48:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Peter G. Park) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:48:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket Manufacturers Message-ID: <20011114204834.93924.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --0-478487422-1005770914=:92289 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Looking at all the crew photos here at RAF Molesworth today it is obvious that the A2 jackets shown are from several of the many manufacturers that made them in the period ending in 1943. If any of you have your original (not copies) jackets could you tell me what the label inside the color says (e.g. Manufacturer's Name, Contract Number, etc.) I am tyring to determine which manufacturers jackets were actually used by the 303rd. It is beginning to get quite cold here in England, and it reminds me of the stories of how coal was a hot commodity for heating the non-insulated Nissen huts. Many thanks Peter --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. --0-478487422-1005770914=:92289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Looking at all the crew photos here at RAF Molesworth today it is obvious that the A2 jackets shown are from several of the many manufacturers that made them in the period ending in 1943.

If any of you have your original (not copies) jackets could you tell me what the label inside the color says (e.g. Manufacturer's Name, Contract Number, etc.) I am tyring to determine which manufacturers jackets were actually used by the 303rd.

It is beginning to get quite cold here in England, and it reminds me of the stories of how coal was a hot commodity for heating the non-insulated Nissen huts.

Many thanks

Peter

Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. --0-478487422-1005770914=:92289-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 21:26:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:26:41 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket Manufacturers References: <20011114204834.93924.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF2E191.D9681BF0@attglobal.net> --------------092AD96E38FFB9505D471593 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Stark ... I have my original A2 jacket in which I flew all my combat missions. It hangs in my Den. I looked at the label in the collar ... it is unreadable EXCEPT the bottom line which reads: BEACON NY .... and the size, 38! Cheers! Bill Heller "Peter G. Park" wrote: > Looking at all the crew photos here at RAF Molesworth today it is > obvious that the A2 jackets shown are from several of the many > manufacturers that made them in the period ending in 1943. > > If any of you have your original (not copies) jackets could you tell > me what the label inside the color says (e.g. Manufacturer's Name, > Contract Number, etc.) I am tyring to determine which manufacturers > jackets were actually used by the 303rd. > > It is beginning to get quite cold here in England, and it reminds me > of the stories of how coal was a hot commodity for heating the > non-insulated Nissen huts. > > Many thanks > > Peter > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. --------------092AD96E38FFB9505D471593 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Stark ...

I have my original A2 jacket in which I flew all my combat missions. It hangs in my Den. I looked at the label in the collar ... it is unreadable EXCEPT the bottom line which reads: BEACON NY .... and the size, 38!

Cheers!

Bill Heller

"Peter G. Park" wrote:

Looking at all the crew photos here at RAF Molesworth today it is obvious that the A2 jackets shown are from several of the many manufacturers that made them in the period ending in 1943.
If any of you have your original (not copies) jackets could you tell me what the label inside the color says (e.g. Manufacturer's Name, Contract Number, etc.) I am tyring to determine which manufacturers jackets were actually used by the 303rd.
It is beginning to get quite cold here in England, and it reminds me of the stories of how coal was a hot commodity for heating the non-insulated Nissen huts.
Many thanks
Peter

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Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals.

--------------092AD96E38FFB9505D471593-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 22:12:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:12:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question Message-ID: <24.1c50da0e.2924463f@aol.com> Dear WGH, I tried and tried to get the answers from someone else's research. All I could find was some vague answer like ," It's the corollas effect" I asked what is the corollas effect. They said It caused by the rotation of the earth. I asked "how does that cause it? The answer was something like "Well ere, You know, I mean, You know. SO as I flew about the world I observed and thought. What I have told you so far is just the tip of a Hugh iceberg. It would take me months to put it all on the Internet, but a few clues. Sun spots are Hugh storms on the sun that affect the magnetic fields that surround the earth. There is enough iron dissolved in sea water to make it slightly magnetic and the change our magnetic fields which could cause the currents in the ocean to change their course from normal and greatly change our weather patterns (like El Nino). The ocean are also greatly affected by corollas forces. Some two-thirds of our planet is covered by water, so we can assume that some 2/3 rds of our volcanos are under water and we never know where or when. They would release enormous amounts of energy in the water in the form of heat which would raise the temperature of the water in the currants which would greatly increase the evaporation rate of the water, change the humidity in the atmosphere and precipitin over much or all of our land masses. The forgoing would change wind patterns, fronts, storms, and temperatures. Are you beginning to see why long range forecasts of weather are just a guess. This is long enough and I haven't even mentioned our earths procession as it rotates on its axis which causes our ice ages and more. Bill I don't know where to find this in a book. I haven't had time to write one yet. Best wishes Dear Friend, Jack Rencher, The Happy Copilot From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 22:24:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:24:35 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Coriolis what? Message-ID: <122.7664cbe.29244923@aol.com> Bill Hoyt. Thanks for your kind words. I'm so mean I don't get very many of them. You might find the letter I sent to Bill Heller today and show it to Taylor. She might get a laugh out of it, especially if she shows it to her physics teacher. Best Wishes, to you too Taylor. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 22:49:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:49:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Ray Cossey Message-ID: Hi Kevin: I would love to read it. WDK19@aol.com. Take care. Bill Keane From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 14 23:21:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (john and linda alger) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:21:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request References: <001601c16cb8$ab63a0e0$02000003@r1m1z6> <000c01c16d12$163e38e0$7c68db40@billowen> Message-ID: <003d01c16d63$082ad820$02000003@r1m1z6> Thanks Bill!! Robb Hoover told me there's a web site in Dutch that contains data on Lt. Albino. It's http://members.tripod.lycos.nl/veldeling/lightnin.htm In fact he pasted a bit of the web site content to me in case I could get it translated. It has Albino's name in it several times. Maybe your war historian friend could have a look. God Bless You, John Alger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Owen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Information Request > John, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you. I know a war historian in the > Netherlands. I will write to him and see if he can help. > Best wishes, Bill Owen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john and linda alger" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:01 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request > > > I am doing research on Lt. Albert A. Albino who was a P-38 pilot with the > 38th Fighter Squadron in Nuthampstead. Lieutenant Albino was KIA on 29 Nov > '43. > > The VFW Post 224 in Aberdeen Washington is being renamed "The Albert A. > Albino Memorial Post". I am doing this research on behalf of Post 224 > members and my father, Bill Alger who is past Post 224 and District 5 > Commander and Post 224 and District 5 Chaplain. > > Here is the information I have on Lt. Albino > > Date of Birth 7 April 1919 > Hometown Aberdeen, Washington > Nickname Porky > Serial Number O-743300 > Unit of Assignment 38th fighter squadron, 55th fighter group, 66th air > division, 8th air force > Pilot Rating C/G - 12 April 1943 > Air Frame P-38H5LO > Last Mission 29 Nov 1943 - Bomber escort > Mission Result Shot down over Hoogeween, Netherlands > A/C Tail Number 42-67051 > Award Purple Heart > Missing Air Crew Report Number 01428 > Remains Identified 19 Sep 79 (ident'ed fm remains of unknown X9444 > recovered Mar 1978) > Final Resting Place Mount Calvary Cemetery, Portland, Oregon. > > Additional information - The Dept of the Army Report of 19Sept 1979 states > about Lt. Albino's final act, > An eyewitness who was on duty at the time remembered that during World War > II, an aircraft had crashed at the railway station about 10-15 yards in > front of him, going almost straight down through rails and sleepers. The > Germans had ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to repair one of > the main railway lines. > > This eyewitness report is part of "The Report of Recovery" prepared by the > Identification and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air Force. > The entire report is part of the Dept of the Army Report dated 19 Sep 79 > that identified the remains of unknown X9444 to those of Lt. Albino. > > **It is my belief that Lt. Albino sacrificed himself by deliberately > crashing into the Nazi rail station/marshalling yard. It would be in > keeping with his character (I've read several newspaper articles about > Porky), to sacrifice himself in support of his comrades and brothers. Since > rail was the Nazi's primary means of moving troops and supplies and "(T)he > Germans.ordered the hole filled up as soon as possible to repair one of the > main railway lines." Lt Albino's must have single-handedly had a major > effect on the Nazi war effort. > > For this reason, I would like to submit Lt. Albino for additional > recognition. In order to do so, I need incontestable proof of his act of > gallantry. I need The Report of Recovery" prepared by the Identification > and Recovery Officer of the Royal Netherlands Air Force which contains the > eyewitness report. > > Can any of you help?? > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 15 22:52:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Peter G. Park) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:52:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A2 Jacket Manufacturers Message-ID: <20011115225221.1335.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --0-338011368-1005864741=:97617 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-344012828-1005864741=:97617" --0-344012828-1005864741=:97617 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill: Your A2 Jacket was most probably made by AERO LEATHER CLOTHING of Beacon New York. Among their contracts was one 18775-P that was most distinctive in that the knit around the waist and on the sleeves was a particularly red-rust color (most were a darker brown). Also in this one of their contracts the lining was a unique mustard yellow color. Yours may or may not have these unique feathers. Also the pocket flaps were very scalloped. Attached is a photo of an original AERO LEATHER CLOTHING jacket taken from a catalog of a compay here in England that makes reproductions. The one in the photo is an original. Peter US Address: PSC 46 BOX 318, APO AE 09469-0318 UK Address: 36 Huntingdon Rd, Brampton, Huntingdon, Cambs, PE28 4PA, UK UK Phone Outside UK: 44-1480-454571 Inside UK: 01480-454571 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. --0-344012828-1005864741=:97617 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Bill:

Your A2 Jacket was most probably made by AERO LEATHER CLOTHING of Beacon New York. Among their contracts was one 18775-P that was most distinctive in that the knit around the waist and on the sleeves was a particularly red-rust color (most were a darker brown). Also in this one of their contracts the lining was a unique mustard yellow color. Yours may or may not have these unique feathers. Also the pocket flaps were very scalloped.

Attached is a photo of an original AERO LEATHER CLOTHING jacket taken from a catalog of a compay here in England that makes reproductions. The one in the photo is an original.

Peter

US Address: PSC 46 BOX 318, APO AE 09469-0318

UK Address: 36 Huntingdon Rd, Brampton, Huntingdon, Cambs, PE28 4PA, UK

UK Phone Outside UK: 44-1480-454571 Inside UK: 01480-454571

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Message-ID: Something that never occurred to me before, but after reading stories of B-17s occasionally getting lost, at least temporarily, even when they had a navigator, I became curious how the fighter pilots managed to navigate to and from their assigned areas, since they had to be their own navigator? Did they just follow a direct vector until they encountered the bomber stream, then follow it, and then just follow a beacon back home? It wouldn't seem like they would have time to draw lines on a map and compute time/distance and things like that. I'm typing this while listening on my scanner to a couple F-16s practicing chasing each other with night goggles, radar, GPS, flight computers, etc, etc to tell them where they are, and I wondered how the fighters in WWII figured out where they were. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 00:24:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:24:44 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings Message-ID: Hi Brian: Great to see your name again,looking forward to seeuing you at the reunion. Dick " Spider" Smith >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:08:53 +0000 > >Quick note to let y'all know that I am back. I have relocated from >Molesworth to Omaha, and am still working for ACS Defense, but now at HQ US >Strategic Command. > >Looking forward to seeing many of the veterans at next year's reunion in >Missouri. > >Brian McGuire > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 00:41:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:41:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] missing posts Message-ID: <3BF3FE53.14017.1068F7C@localhost> List Friends, Several posts from some of you that should have come through have not for some unknown reason. If you posted something since yesterday evening that has not showed up, please repost it. For some reason, the list has been VERY slow and sluggish today, but seems to be working better now. Sorry for the problems. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 02:06:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 02:06:11 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] How did the fighters navigate? Message-ID: <20011116020611.DMPI4964.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Hi Bill. While I was there in 1945, we picked up the fighter escort over France. We had a 15 minute window of opportunity to hook up. If we were late, they went home. The lead P-51 would come in real close to be identified and flew the bomber stream to the target area. They broke off at the IP or target flak area and picked us up on the other side. When we got close to their base of operation on the way back the lead P-51 would again come in real close and say "big brother from little brother give us a course home". On receipt of the requested info they flapped their wings a time or two and headed home. Bill Runnels > Something that never occurred to me before, but after reading > stories of B-17s occasionally getting lost, at least temporarily, even > when they had a navigator, I became curious how the fighter pilots > managed to navigate to and from their assigned areas, since they > had to be their own navigator? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 02:27:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 02:27:23 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] With Gratitude - from Heidi Girman Message-ID: To Heidi - Many thanks, for your thanks. God speed. Brian McGuire >From: Hydeho13@aol.com (Heidi Girman) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com (All Vets) >Subject: [303rd-Talk] With Gratitude - from Heidi Girman >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:16:54 PST > >Hello! Heidi Girman has just sent you a greeting card from >Bluemountain.com. > >You can pick up your personal message here: > >http://www6.bluemountain.com/cards/boxf227376d1/vd74axntp35iig.html > >Your card will be available for the next 90 days. > >This service is 100% FREE! :) Have a good day and have fun! > >________________________________________________________________________ >Accessing your card indicates agreement with Blue Mountain's Website Rules: >http://www.bluemountain.com/home/WebsiteRules.html > >Send FREE Blue Mountain cards to friends and family (and attach gifts too!) >http://www.bluemountain.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 03:13:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 03:13:50 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Veterans Day Message-ID: Ray - Au contraire. Would you believe that Tom Brokaw, of all people, would not wear an American flag lapel pin on air because he believed it would indicate approval for the current Administration!! One would think he should know it represents our country, NOT a political party. Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic, let me assure you that neither side has a corner on polical stupidity. Brian McGuire >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Veterans Day >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:19:08 -0000 > >Reference the corespondent (hoytwma2) who told of his experience in Canada >and the wearing of red poppies, prior to Remembrance Day, or what you >Americans call Veterans' Day (11 November). > >Throughout the UK we have been able to purchase, and wear, such poppies >since the 1920's, to mark Remembrance Day. These go on sale to the public >from perhaps the end of October until the actual day. The donation you hand >to the collector/seller, either on your doorstep, or on the street corner, >is entirely at your discretion. All the proceeds from the sale of these >poppies goes to the British Legion, an organisation set up to assist war >veterans who need financial help and/or are living in veterans' >homes/hospitals and the like. Each year some many millions of pounds is >raised, for this purpose, from the sale of these poppies. > >No self-respecting politician dares be seen without his/her poppy on >television, or at a public appearance. Having said that, would you believe >that this year the BBC has banned the wearing of these poppies by >newscasters, on their television World Service! The reason, (would you >believe it) is so as not to offend the peoples of foreign nations who we >have been, or are, at war with! I, and most of my fellow countrymen, are >appalled at such a restriction and our seeming cowardice at succumbing to >the sensitivities of such nations. > >I cannot imagine such a thing would ever be tolerated (or imposed) in the >United States of America. > >Ray Cossey >Norwich, England > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 04:00:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 04:00:48 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question Message-ID: Many people don't realize that the Battle of Britain saved not only the UK but the US. If Britain had fallen, we couldn't have used it for two years to build up the infrastructure needed to take the Continent back. Then you guys would have been flying the B-29 for its originally intended mission - bombing the enemy from North American airfields, in what, alas, would have probably been a futile effort to win the war. The United States owes it existence to that brave cadre of British airmen in 1940 every bit as much as England owes its existence to the combined efforts of the USAAF and RAF. Brian M >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:45:53 -0800 > >Holrit ... > >Your sense of history v.v. the trials and tribulations the UK suffered >in and PRIOR to OUR getting into WW#2 ( the one we won) ... is a bit >off. England suffered heavily in 1940 and all through the rest of those >"war years" with the blitz ... the little blitz was in '44 and '45 with >the V1s and V2s. But the Battle of Britain, circa 1940, in which the RAF >defeated the Luftwaffe and succeeded in making Goering think twice about >the possible invasion of the British Isles ... is what turned the tide. >How furtunate, though totally diminished in size and scope ... it was >that the Germans did not know that the RAF was then on its last legs. I >had American pilot friends of mine in the RAF at that time. We called it >the Eagle Squadron. > >England was fighting that war quite a time prior to our entry. They were >suffering the blitz long before we were even attacked at Pearl ... > >I believe we should never forget this ... ie., the stalwart courage of >the British people when invasion AND defeat seemed very very possible. >This delaying action ... if you can call it that ... is what allowed us >to be finally victorious in WW#2 (the one we won). > >Cheers! > >WCH > > > >Todd Hollritt wrote: > > > Is the "Coriolis effect" why toilets in Australia > > flush backwards? Just wondering... > > > > Also unrelated to this subject, but with the recent > > air crashes over here on the east coast creating such > > a stir. All I can imagine is what England must have > > been like during 1944 and 1945, it was quiet and > > "Somewhat" safe there, yet almost everyday and night > > an aircraft would "come down" without warning > > somewhere in East Anglia, with bombs exploding and > > ammunition cooking off no less! Imagine if CNN and > > instant video feeds existed 60 years ago! How did the > > BBC cover all these air disasters? I guess after the > > "Blitz" this was a fact of life... it was weird to > > hear the news reports yesterday "It's ok, this crash > > seems to be a mechanical problem" :o > > > > Todd (303rd A637) > > > > > Message: 2 > > > From: "hoytwma2" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:48:42 -0700 > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation Question > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Jack, you wondered what if the cannon were fired > > > east or west. I did too. > > > The article stated "An exactly similar displacement > > > occurs if the projectile > > > is fired in any direction etc etc etc". The east / > > > west fired round would > > > over shoot or undershoot the intended target > > wouldn't > > > it? > > > The only reason I know anything about this at all is > > > on account of helping > > > my teenage daughter with some homework in which the > > > question was asked "Why > > > does it take longer to fly from Miami to New York > > > than from New York back". > > > I really like learning things from my kids or > > > because of them. > > > > > > From Nov 8th Nav Question > > > "The Coriolis effect is most apparent in the path of > > > an object moving > > > longitudinally. On the Earth an object that moves > > > along a north-south path, > > > or longitudinal line, will undergo apparent > > > deflection to the right > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 04:13:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 04:13:12 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: John - I have heard that Sequim is Shangra-la. Due to its position in the valley, it enjoys very moderate weather, much nicer than the rest of the NW. Sounds like a great place to retire! Brian McGuire USAF 1967-1992 >From: "john and linda alger" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:58:23 -0800 > >I am John D. Alger. I live (for now) in Sequim (pronounced skwim) >Washington. I am married to Linda Kay Alger. We have no children, though >we do have several pets. Linda is partners in a 2-location Christian >bookstore business and I am training to be a 911 Dispatch Officer for >Jefferson County Washington. > >I retired from the Air Force in 1995 having served 11 years enlisted and 11 >years as an officer. My tours included Monterey California, RAF Chicksands >England, RAF Digby England, Misawa Japan, Kunia Hawaii, Berlin Germany, and >Soto Cano AB, Honduras. > >Linda graduated from the USAF Academy and served in Hellenikon Greece, >Misawa Japan, Hickam Hawaii, and RAF Chicksands England. She resigned her >commission in 1995. > >I bid you all a happy Veterans' Day 2001!!!! > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 17:14:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:14:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 11/13/01 10:08 PM, Brian McGuire at brianmac2@hotmail.com wrote: > Quick note to let y'all know that I am back. I have relocated from > Molesworth to Omaha, and am still working for ACS Defense, but now at HQ US > Strategic Command. > > Looking forward to seeing many of the veterans at next year's reunion in > Missouri. > > Brian McGuire > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > Good luck in your new venture, Brian.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 16 22:22:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:22:46 Subject: [303rd-Talk] How did the fighters navigate? Message-ID: Hi Bill: This is Spider Smith I flew my second tour in P51s in The First Scouting Fource see them on the web at look under Scouting Fources. We had a navigator at our home base he would make us up a map with all the check points, it was folded up like an acordian and we would memorize it before the mission . Then we would check it as needed . Most of our flights were dead reconing. I alwaws got back.Except for my last mission when my 51 caught fire and I bailed out over Belgium. Dick " Spider" Smith >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] How did the fighters navigate? >Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:28:45 -0500 > > Something that never occurred to me before, but after reading >stories of B-17s occasionally getting lost, at least temporarily, even >when they had a navigator, I became curious how the fighter pilots >managed to navigate to and from their assigned areas, since they >had to be their own navigator? Did they just follow a direct vector >until they encountered the bomber stream, then follow it, and then >just follow a beacon back home? It wouldn't seem like they would >have time to draw lines on a map and compute time/distance and >things like that. I'm typing this while listening on my scanner to a >couple F-16s practicing chasing each other with night goggles, >radar, GPS, flight computers, etc, etc to tell them where they are, >and I wondered how the fighters in WWII figured out where they >were. > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 18 00:48:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:48:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigation Question Message-ID: Brian, It is very nice to have you back on the Internet. I always looked forward to your knowledge and wisdom. Now I can be happy again. Very Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 20 13:01:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Steve Hollifield) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 05:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censorship in the "Press" Message-ID: <20011120130117.47340.qmail@web20606.mail.yahoo.com> I'm a few days behind in my reading of the forum, but Ray Cossey from "over there" mensioned press censorship in England during the war. My thoughts on that is that our "1st ammendment" rights can definitly be abused by the press at times. I believe that some of our countries major battles and wars of the past century have indeed been won or lost, not on the battlefield or in the hearts of our military personnel, but in the "press". No, I'm not talking about he printing press, where people actually have to read and and form their opinions. I'm talking about the TV where we can be mesmerized by continuous coverage, breaking news, sound-bites, selective photography, etc. etc. I remember many times in the 70's when I'd here my dad say, they should put that kind of stuff on TV (speaking of news stories that made it hard on Vietnam troups). I think he saw it as "turning the country against its own". Of course, we American's view the 1st ammendment as something not to be tampered with either in fear of or regardless of the consequences. I see TV as one of those variables that separates how we fight today compared to how we fought in WWII("the one we won, as is said"). What do you guys think? Has TV made things better for soldiers in the field? Has the "press" really changed wars, policy, elections, etc. Or, is it just a box that you can "turn off if you don't want to watch it---Jerry Clower". I see arguments on both sides, but I certainly see "the news" used for "other than good". If that is true, how should it be changed or improved, if at all? And, to Mr. Cossey, do you think censorship in England during WWII was a "good thing"???? Steve Hollifield __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 20 19:23:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:23:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Escape from internment Message-ID: <3BFA4B2A.30117.9E770@localhost> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: mpsy@webtv.net (Marvin Shaw) Date sent: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:18:11 -0500 (EST) To: 303rd.talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Escape from internment I have been asked by someto list my account of my escape from internment in Switzerland. Charles Cassidy, our bombadier, has already presented his account which overlaps much of my experience (http://www.west.net/~macpuzl/internee.html). My account will concern primarily to trip from Davos to Englan, although I will note a few intances where my memory is different from Cassidy's. I do not mean to imply in any way that he was wrong. In some instnces our different roes may account for the differences: a navigator had to pay attention to things that a bombadier could ignore and vice versa. I suppose we both suffer some meory loss. Here are a few differences: l. He did not remember much about takeoff and assembly, whereas I remember it well. We were late in getting off and our group was well on the way , so it fell to me to find them. We had been taught how to compute interceptions, but I realized that would take too long so I used my own technique and intercepted them OK. 2. He thought we were "tail end Charlie", but we actually deputy lead, which placed us right behind the lead plane. 3. He noted the P-51s at Munich and incorrectly assumed that that was when ong decided to go to Switzerland. Actually, Long had already asked me for a heading to Switzerland and I had given it to him before the P-5ls appeared. Cassidy had no way of knowing this.) After arriving at Davos it was pleasant to relax, drinking coffee, eating Swiss pastery, climbing mountains, But we eventually tired of this, so when the U.S. Military Attache told us that if we escaped our government would not object, Hal Carlman and I decided to leave. After returning to England, I wrote down some of the details of our journey. Here is what I wrote: "October l6, l944. Lt. Harold L. Carlman and I decided to escape that night from Swiss internment at Davos Platz, Switzerland. We secured civilian clothes from a good friend of ours, Hans Rohner. Then we went to the Swiezerhof Hotel to the room of Capt. Gregovitch of Marshal Tito's partisans. There he arranged plans for us with another friend of our, also a Yugo, Lt. Michaelvitch. There we changed from our uniforms to civvies. Leaving the hotel at 0615 pm, we walked boldly out of town. We met many guards but were not recognized or questioned. Once we passed Hal's girl friend who did not recognize us until we spoke. That night we, with two other mer. who joined us, the Yugo, and an Austrian, walked twenty kilometers (about l5 miles) in two hours and fifteen minutes, arriving at a small town called Kloisters. We went to an old hospital, being used at that time as an internment camp for olish rfugees. We were smuggled in for the night. My foot was bleedingfrom the mad flight. It was treated by a Polish doctor. We dined that night on sardines and brown bread. For the first time in my life, sardine tasted good. The next moring we were up at 0400 am. The same fare was served at breakfast. We walked two or three more kilometers and boarded a train at Serenoise. Our greatest obstacle, so we thought, was at Lanquart. We changed trains there without incidence. At Zurich we changed trains again with a two hour delay. We walked about town fro awhile, stopping for a sandwich and coffee. Entering the train again, we started on our way to Biel. Many soldiers were on the train but we were not suspected. Once there was no one on the train except our party and Swiss soldiers. But we pretended to e asleep. At Biel we missed our train, which was not good, as we wanted to beat Neuchatel or Lausanne by nightfall. For three hours we walked and dined. Always we were careful eat as the swiss and to act, as near as possible, like them. Eventually we left Biel and just as eventually arrived at Neuchatel. Whn we were met by a friend of Michaelvitch, she was unable to help us find a guide across the frontier so we decided to go to Lausanne. On the way there, I was forced to sit alne in a double seat. T every stop, I had new companion and each one wated to talk. I didn't trust my French that far so I just read my newspaper, which I had already read a dozen times. One fellow spoke to me in French, German, and Italian. He must have thought me an awful bore since I didn't answer or maybe he thought I was deaf. T lastwe arrived atLausanneabout 0815 pm Oct. 17, l944. e spent hours walking the streets, waiting for an opportunity to go to the American Club at the Palace Hotel. There we met one Mrs. Spirieli who took us to the home of Madame Gonet, a Dutch woman engaged in aiding Americans to escape to fight again. At about 1200 o'clock that night we sat before the mst welcome sight I can think of - a well filled table. For seven days we rested here a English scholars while Brown and Francois Gonet, son of Madame Gonet, arranged for us to get across the border. During that timeour number had increased to ten- eight Americans and two Englishmen. Of the eight Americans, there was Hal, copilot of our crew, myself,navigator, next came assidy, bombadier, and lastly Long, pilot. Thus the crew's officers went out together. After staying at Mdm.Gonet's for seven days, we started for the frontierat Geneva. we walked from the house in pairs, about twenty yards apart. We left about seven o'clock pm. It was pouring rain. We walked about a mile through town to an old forest park where we were picked up by a fellow in a truck. Of course the back was covered with canvas. Here Brown left us, but Francois went on. After driving for about two hours, we came to the ede of Geneva about two miles from the frontier. Here we left the truck and started for the frontier on foot. It was still raining and the fields we crossed were muddy and filled with holes of water. Soon we were soaked from the rain and our shoes were filled with water and mud. After walking about a mile we came to a river and followed it to a bridge on a main highway. This bridge was guarded but our spies had previously determined the time the guard would be absent from the end. Waiting until the guard left for his rounds, we sneaked across the bridge, climbed a fence, passed through an old cement factory and came to what we thought was the frontier fence. It was on the other side of a small streamused for powering the mill. To ge across, we walked across the top of the sluice-gate. T the far side we encountered a stone wall about eight feet high. Climbing the wall, we found three strands of barbed wire. Eventually however all were safely across into what we thought was France. Then to our dismay we found that we were two short. Hal and another fellow were not among us So our guide went back & found them where we had left the truck. Due to language, they has misunderstood the guides instructions. So after and hour or so they too were over the fence. Then we went across a turnip field, smoking, laughing - a happy bunch. Then Fracois began to wonder if we really were in France. Leaving us again in hiding he went up to a house and made inquires - finding we were still in Switzerland. Fortunately the man Francois spoke to was an Englishman so he showed Francois where the border was. We hurried to it to find two fences of interlaced barb wire about eight feet high. We climbed over and troug as best we could and many pieces of clothing were left flapping in the breeze. Also many hands were torn and cut by the barbs, mine no exception. But we got across and hid in an old barnwhile Francois went to find some friendly French - preferably the Marquis. We had been inside about five minutes when the Swiss Border Patrol came by passing within a few feet of our hiding place. One funny incident occurred to relieve the monotony and dreariness of our wait. We were smoking and standing or walking around and trying to keep warm without making too much noise when suddenly there was a crash and a stifled cry. One fellow had fallen through the floor. He caught himself on the edges of the hole with his arms and with help was able to climb up. By the aid of matches & cig. lighters we could see a hole some twenty to thirty feet deep with mud and water in the bottom. That was about 0100 am on the morning of 26 Oct. l944. At about 0200 am we heard voces and steps. Looking out into the night we were able to distinguish aout twenty men with rifles and machine guns. They rapidly srrounded the building and trained their guns on every door and window. We did not know if they were friend or foe but soon they sent three men in with Francois. I surely was releived when the leader said, "Vous sont Amercain, n'est ce que?" We all said "Oui" with our best French accent.. Then they told us they were the Marquis and extended their hands in welcme. Then we started on the last leg of our journey for that night. We walked across fields, hills & streams, through rain, mud and slosh for I suppose about two or three miles though it seemed like ten. Finally we came to a small French village where the Marquis had their camp. It was a massivestone building with a single in one room and bunks with nothng but thin mattresses and one or no blanket. That nigt we dined on cheese and brown bread with much wine. In the morning only wine was left but we were given freely of all they had. I slept in my wet clothes, but it was warmer thet way. Next day we were up at dawn and to my surprise we were withina dozen yards of the Swiss border. The Marqui cief called the Ameicans at Annecy and a car was sent for us. At Annecy Francois left us. For three days we had fresh eggs, milk,butter, white bread, real coffee, in fact things we had not had for so long. We were waited on by German prisoners. It was the life of Rilley, but then Rilly came home. Or rather orders came for us to move on to Lyons. After almost a day, we were picked up by a -47 and carried to England. Back once again to the American army. We arrived there the 27th of Oct., l944, just eleven days after we left Davos and three months two weeks after we had taken off to bomb Nazi Munich. Finis." ------- End of forwarded message -------- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 21 00:47:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (george frecther) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:47:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] How did the fighters navigate? References: <20011116020611.DMPI4964.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <001c01c17226$182535a0$b095a818@nj.rr.com> I completed a tour with the 427th sq. in May 1944, with the James Melton crew. I was the navigator. I then was sent to a training school for P-51's and P-47's for pilots from the states coming over. I taught them the navigation points available to them for emergences, which ones now fail me. Also, with another instructor, they were taught to spot rivers running mostly north and south thru France and Germany. At high altitudes these were easily seen. These courses lasted two weeks given when they were not flying. As a follow up, I visited some operational bases and spoke to some of the students we taught and learned what we needed to sharpen up our teachings. (Harry) George Frechter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] How did the fighters navigate? > Hi Bill. While I was there in 1945, we picked up the > fighter escort over France. We had a 15 minute window of > opportunity to hook up. If we were late, they went home. > The lead P-51 would come in real close to be identified > and flew the bomber stream to the target area. They > broke off at the IP or target flak area and picked us up > on the other side. When we got close to their base of > operation on the way back the lead P-51 would again come > in real close and say > "big brother from little brother give us a course home". > On receipt of the requested info they flapped their > wings a time or two and headed home. Bill Runnels > > Something that never occurred to me before, but after reading > > stories of B-17s occasionally getting lost, at least temporarily, even > > when they had a navigator, I became curious how the fighter pilots > > managed to navigate to and from their assigned areas, since they > > had to be their own navigator? > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 00:40:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:40:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! Message-ID: <3BFBE71D.10818.10CC6B9@localhost> Friends, Susan and I would like to wish a very Happy Thanksgiving to all our 303rd friends. We hope you all have a safe, enjoyable day with family and friends. Best wishes to all! Gary and Susan Moncur - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 00:46:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:46:12 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! References: <3BFBE71D.10818.10CC6B9@localhost> Message-ID: <001701c172ef$19917d80$5df833cf@richards> Hi Gary: Spider wishes you and yours the Happiest. Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:40 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! > Friends, > Susan and I would like to wish a very Happy Thanksgiving to all > our 303rd friends. We hope you all have a safe, enjoyable day > with family and friends. > > Best wishes to all! > Gary and Susan Moncur > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 01:16:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:16:23 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! Message-ID: <90.1d490e24.292dabe7@aol.com> susan ,you are greatly free with that dear hubby's onvolvement with we old friends. gary, you gotta be truly proud of that dear susan. i am proud that your qualities of life sustain so very ably this assn's web and communication facets. cheers and best wishes for ya'll's happiest thansgiving from this southern boy graciously appreciative for your services. spec campen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 18:04:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:04:55 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] History re-written Message-ID: <003d01c17383$534008a0$e3e8fc3e@o7b6a3> I sometimes despair of the way in which modern-day commentators sometimes rewrite history, without carefully checking the facts. This afternoon I watched a programme on our History Channel in which it was stated that only the American 9th Air Force's medium bombers saw action on D-Day (6/6/44). According to my copy of 'Might in Flight' the 303rd were involved that day, in missions 172 & 173 (both over Caen, France), and mission 174 over Vire, France). Regular 303rd Talk Forum contributors Hal Susskind and Bill Eisenhart were, I believe, involved with one or other of these missions. Did not Hal take part in the first (morning) and third missions of the day? So what the commentator said is all bunkum.........is it not? The programme went on to tell of the tragedies of the 24 and 25 July '44, over St. Lo (operation "Cobra") when 'short bombing' resulted in the deaths of many hundred US ground troops, including 3-star General Leslie J. McNair. These were the 303rd's 211th and 212th missions. I believe the unfortunate bombing of the US troops was from bombs released from B-24's. but I am wondering if any of you have recollections of these sad events and have opinions as to what went wrong on those two days? Please correct me if I am mistaken, but were not General Ira Eaker and Air Chief Marshall 'Bomber' Harris unhappy about the use of heavy bombers on, and post, D-Day but were overruled by Gen. Eisenhower? Did they not feel that high-flying heavy bombers, perhaps in bad weather, could not meet the accuracy of bombing required so close to our ground force's front lines? Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 18:23:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:23:09 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Wartime censorship i Message-ID: <004001c17383$57478720$e3e8fc3e@o7b6a3> Steve Hollifield posed of me the question, 'did I think censorship in England during World War II was a good thing?'. You know Steve, I am generally against censorship, when it deprives the individual of information, that ought to best be in the public domain. Having said that, there are occasions (and war is one such instance) when censorship is a necessity, if the divulging of information assists the enemy. Now the instance of the shooting down of those B-24's, as a result of 'friendly fire', over Norwich, England, is such an example. Let's suppose the local papers, at the time, had been allowed to run the story. This would, inevitably, have been picked-up by the national press, radio etc. Soon it would have been in the public domain generally, as opposed to just being known by the local few who might have witnessed the event. It would then have been available to the German propaganda machine and you can well imagine what a meal they would have made of it? Don't kid yourself, we had enemy spies in our midst during the war, posing as everyday citizens. They would have transmitted the press reports straight to Herr Geobbels' minions, who would have had Lord Haw Haw* on the radio, gloating over what had occurred! Do you think it would have been a desirable thing for all the world to have known that the allies were preparing for D-Day, in June '44, or that General Patton's 'ghost army' was just that, a decoy? Of course not. In wartime somethings are best kept under wraps and the press, and other media, be deprived of any right to reveal such information. So, Steve, during wartime censorship is, in my humble opinion, a necessary evil and one that has got to be imposed. Others may think differently. (* Lord Haw Haw, for those of you who don't know it, was a pseudonym for a man called William Joyce. He was an Englishman (although at the Nuremberg trials he tried to claim not to be an English citizen), who was a traitor, broadcasting radio propaganda, for the Germans. He was hanged for his troubles after the war. His opening phrase was always, "Gaarmany (sic) calling", in a very exaggerated, plumby, English accent. A right nutter, if ever there was. Regards all Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 19:30:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:30:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: <2d.1485c483.292eac54@aol.com> Hi To All: I hope all will have a great Thanksgiving. The best to all of you and your family's. Thanks for everything you guys did for us. Brooklyn Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 22:11:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:11:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <2f.1e24c508.292ed229@aol.com> Ray Coosey You are correct. The History Channel TV program commentator said was bunkum (American translation Bull S---) when he asserted that the ninth Air Force twin engine bombers were alone in making bombing raids on D-Day June 6th 1944 8th Air Force bombers conducted missions against airfields and gun emplacements prior to D-Day On June 6th the First and Second morning missions dispatched 1802 bombers. The afternoon, 3rd mission. dispatched 782 Bombers. 1719 fighters were also dispatched plus another 466 fighter-bombing missions. This was a massive display of 8th Air Force aircraft. Many of your 303rd Friends were on these missions, viz: BrigGen Bob Travis, (41st CBW) with Hal Susskind as Navigator, Col Stevens, LtCol Lyle, LtCol Shayler. Major Mackin, LtCol Snyder, Ed Miller, Bob Sheets, Bill Eisenhart, Richard Johnson. etc. Don't forget that there were very few Luftwaffe fighters to harass our D-Day troops - This was no accident. Eight Air Force & RAF Bombers and Fighters helped make this happen by their bombiong of airports throuighout the first six months of 1944. The Ninth Air Force twin engine bomberb and fighter groups also played an important part from their bases in England in the spring months of 1944 and on D-Day but their display of air power certainly wasn't alone. Harry D. Gobrecht From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 22 23:44:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:44:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] History re-written References: <003d01c17383$534008a0$e3e8fc3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <001d01c173af$a83681a0$56e27ad1@markdonn> If the History Channel was right, my Uncle lived with the delusion all his life that he had flown on D-Day. The target was Caen and they did not drop their bombs because of cloud cover. They should also tell Walter Cronkite as he flew in my Uncle's plane and I have heard him talk on TV about being in a B-17 that day. Until that time I thought my Uncle might be making up the story about Cronkite being in his plane. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray cossey" To: "303rd Talk Forum" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] History re-written > I sometimes despair of the way in which modern-day commentators sometimes > rewrite history, without carefully checking the facts. > > This afternoon I watched a programme on our History Channel in which it was > stated that only the American 9th Air Force's medium bombers saw action on > D-Day (6/6/44). According to my copy of 'Might in Flight' the 303rd were > involved that day, in missions 172 & 173 (both over Caen, France), and > mission 174 over Vire, France). Regular 303rd Talk Forum contributors Hal > Susskind and Bill Eisenhart were, I believe, involved with one or other of > these missions. Did not Hal take part in the first (morning) and third > missions of the day? > > So what the commentator said is all bunkum.........is it not? > > The programme went on to tell of the tragedies of the 24 and 25 July '44, > over St. Lo (operation "Cobra") when 'short bombing' resulted in the deaths > of many hundred US ground troops, including 3-star General Leslie J. > McNair. These were the 303rd's 211th and 212th missions. I believe the > unfortunate bombing of the US troops was from bombs released from B-24's. > but I am wondering if any of you have recollections of these sad events and > have opinions as to what went wrong on those two days? > > Please correct me if I am mistaken, but were not General Ira Eaker and Air > Chief Marshall 'Bomber' Harris unhappy about the use of heavy bombers on, > and post, D-Day but were overruled by Gen. Eisenhower? Did they not feel > that high-flying heavy bombers, perhaps in bad weather, could not meet the > accuracy of bombing required so close to our ground force's front lines? > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 23 13:38:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:38:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! In-Reply-To: <3BFBE71D.10818.10CC6B9@localhost> Message-ID: on 11/21/01 7:40 PM, Gary Moncur at glm@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Friends, > Susan and I would like to wish a very Happy Thanksgiving to all > our 303rd friends. We hope you all have a safe, enjoyable day > with family and friends. > > Best wishes to all! > Gary and Susan Moncur > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > May we add Good Wishes to All from mountain country....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 24 04:06:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 04:06:30 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! Message-ID: don't remember any mountains in Boynton Beach . . . . .must be up north. Brian M >From: Bob Hand >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Happy Thanksgiving ! >Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:38:56 -0500 > >on 11/21/01 7:40 PM, Gary Moncur at glm@303rdBGA.com wrote: > > > Friends, > > Susan and I would like to wish a very Happy Thanksgiving to all > > our 303rd friends. We hope you all have a safe, enjoyable day > > with family and friends. > > > > Best wishes to all! > > Gary and Susan Moncur > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > >May we add Good Wishes to All from mountain country....Cheers, Bob and >Nyela >Hand > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Nov 24 20:54:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:54:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Wartime censorship i References: <004001c17383$57478720$e3e8fc3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <3C0008F4.18FE55@attglobal.net> Ray Cossey ... Anent the flap over censorship or no censorship we are receiving from later generations ... one must realize that the later generations have NEVER experienced a true war, NOR have they been taught of ours (the one we won), for their tenured leftist professors and teachers have nothing but disdain for the very country and Constitution which gives them the freedom they so horriblly exploit. If this were true wartime now, there are many tenured leftist professors and teachers in America who would qualify for the treason walk. Censroship was NECESSARY in our war (the one we won) ... and those of us in the field, as it were, KNEW it was necessary. We did not crow about our motley freedoms being given away. By the way, I used to enjoy the silly programs of Lord Haw Haw and I was THRILLED when he was hanged! I used to also listen to some German broadcasts and was able to glean how they were, indeed, fooling not only US, but their own people as well. Though the German of my youth was not up to the later vocabulary and usage which was broadcast from Germany, I was able to get a lot of it. Some barracks mates used to ask for translation, which was difficult, given the switness of the broadcasters. I believe this quest for information from the later generations ... v.v. our war (the one we won) ... is very healthy though it does portray in some cases, a tremendous lack of understanding of just what it was that we were doing. I do believe the sixties, with its hippie society and lack of real education ... ruined a lot of our coming generations in their ability to really understand what was truly going on. There's an old saying that if one forgets history one is likely to repeat it .... I am afraid, however, that too many of those who followed us were never taught history. They were, instead, taught what these tenured leftist educators WANTED to teach as what THEY wished it would be ... Cheers from the Colonies .... Ruth along with myself, send our love from our house to yours ... WCH ray cossey wrote: > Steve Hollifield posed of me the question, 'did I think censorship in > England during World War II was a good thing?'. You know Steve, I am > generally against censorship, when it deprives the individual of > information, that ought to best be in the public domain. Having said that, > there are occasions (and war is one such instance) when censorship is a > necessity, if the divulging of information assists the enemy. > > Now the instance of the shooting down of those B-24's, as a result of > 'friendly fire', over Norwich, England, is such an example. Let's suppose > the local papers, at the time, had been allowed to run the story. This > would, inevitably, have been picked-up by the national press, radio etc. > Soon it would have been in the public domain generally, as opposed to just > being known by the local few who might have witnessed the event. It would > then have been available to the German propaganda machine and you can well > imagine what a meal they would have made of it? > > Don't kid yourself, we had enemy spies in our midst during the war, posing > as everyday citizens. They would have transmitted the press reports straight > to Herr Geobbels' minions, who would have had Lord Haw Haw* on the radio, > gloating over what had occurred! > > Do you think it would have been a desirable thing for all the world to have > known that the allies were preparing for D-Day, in June '44, or that General > Patton's 'ghost army' was just that, a decoy? Of course not. In wartime > somethings are best kept under wraps and the press, and other media, be > deprived of any right to reveal such information. > > So, Steve, during wartime censorship is, in my humble opinion, a necessary > evil and one that has got to be imposed. Others may think differently. > > (* Lord Haw Haw, for those of you who don't know it, was a pseudonym for a > man called William Joyce. He was an Englishman (although at the Nuremberg > trials he tried to claim not to be an English citizen), who was a traitor, > broadcasting radio propaganda, for the Germans. He was hanged for his > troubles after the war. His opening phrase was always, "Gaarmany (sic) > calling", in a very exaggerated, plumby, English accent. A right nutter, if > ever there was. > > Regards all > > Ray Cossey > England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 25 11:15:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:15:22 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Wartime censorship References: <004001c17383$57478720$e3e8fc3e@o7b6a3> <3C0008F4.18FE55@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001401c175a2$b4411380$a024fd3e@o7b6a3> Bill Heller's response to my earlier reply, to Steve Hollifield's question about wartime censorship, struck a chord with me. Bill mentions the lack of appreciation, by today's generation, as to what really happened those 60 odd years ago? He touched on the role of today's 'educationalists' (in quotations because I'm not sure this is a sometimes proper description) and how they sometimes misrepresent what went on during those wartime years. This was brought into stark reality, a few months back, when Theresa and I were looking over Eden Camp, a well-worth visiting museum, devoted to World War II and housed in a series of wartime nissen huts. We caught up with a group of school children who were standing in the mock-up of a civilian anderson shelter (an air-raid shelter housed in the garden). "In this type of shelter, during the war, a family would spent several months, to protect themselves from German bombing", said the maybe 25 year old teacher. "Cor", I overheard one small child exclaim, "fancy being in this tin shed for months on end!". "Yes", replied the teacher, "it must have been difficult". I couldn't contain myself any longer. "It wasn't that difficult", I said..."we came out and went back into the house, once each air-raid was over". The teacher looked somewhat surprised as I added, "and sometimes we went weeks, even months on end, without a further air-raid. Sure the air-raids went on over many months, even years, but we were not in the shelters for months on end". I have no doubt the teacher thought she had grasped the facts, but her knowledge of my generation's war experience was woefully inadequate and certainly not up to passing it on to the next generation. I don't really blame the teacher, just the system, which gives sometimes scant regard to that period of history that was really only yesterday, preferring to concentrate more on what happened hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. To be fair we are now told that the two World wars are to be given greater prominence in the history-teaching curriculum in British schools in future. Finally, Bill, Theresa and I reciprocate yours and Ruth's best wishes and look forward to seeing you both over here some day........in the not too distant future. Ray From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 25 16:29:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (meurs.john) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:29:21 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Search for crew members and/or family. Message-ID: <01c175ce$563c7500$e75703d5@meurs> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C175D6.B800DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Reader, When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in nazi-occupied Holland a = B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. That was = November 26, 1944. Two of the crew members were killed by German soldiers when they were = descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the crash, = the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street = as we did. A couple of months ago we were connected to internet and I started my = research concerning the background of "my" B-17. Since then I've come in = contact with two members of the crew and obtained from Maxwell AFB a = film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day. Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission of = November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission. 303rd Bg lost two a/c that day: # 42-07691, Pilot Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW. # 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, crashed at Kalldorf (Germany), 9 POW. I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew = members: >From the Healy Crew: Pilot: Richard F. Healy Co-Pilot: Wallace.W. Walstein Top-Turret: Joseph J. Robertson Radio/Gunner: Philip E. Smith >From the Jameson crew: =20 Navigator: Maurie S. McDade Bombardier: Ferdinand P. Heavers Top-Turret. Glenn W. Hall I would highly appreciate receiving the whereabouts of these crew = members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact them = directly and to learn more about that particular day in their lives. Target for that day had been the Altenbeken railroad viaduct. During the = whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this vital viaduct without = damaging it seriously. Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission and could tell me his = impression? I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my mother tongue. I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation in this matter. john Meurs Im Gubel 5 CH-8630 Rueti ZH Switzerland. e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C175D6.B800DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear = Reader,

When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in = nazi-occupied=20 Holland a B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. = That=20 was November 26, 1944.

Two of the crew members were killed by German = soldiers when=20 they were descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the = crash,=20 the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch=20 underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street as we = did.

A couple of months ago we were connected to internet = and I=20 started my research concerning the background of "my" B-17. = Since then=20 I've come in contact with two members of the crew and obtained from = Maxwell AFB=20 a film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day.

Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission = of=20 November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission.

303rd Bg=20 lost two a/c that day:

# 42-07691, Pilot=20 Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near=20 Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW.

# 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, = crashed at=20 Kalldorf (Germany), 9 POW.

I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew=20 members:

From the Healy Crew:

Pilot: &n= bsp; &nb= sp;=20 Richard F. Healy

Co-Pilot: = ; =20 Wallace.W. Walstein

Top-Turret: &nb= sp; =20 Joseph J. Robertson

Radio/Gunner: Philip E.=20 Smith

From the Jameson crew:

Navigator: &nbs= p; =20 Maurie S. McDade

Bombardier: &nb= sp; =20 Ferdinand P. Heavers

Top-Turret. &= nbsp; =20 Glenn W. Hall

I would highly appreciate receiving the = whereabouts of=20 these crew members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact = them=20 directly and to learn more about that particular day in their=20 lives.

Target for that day had been the Altenbeken = railroad=20 viaduct. During the whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this = vital=20 viaduct without damaging it seriously.

Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission = and could=20 tell me his impression?

I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my = mother=20 tongue.

I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation = in this=20 matter.

john Meurs

Im Gubel 5

CH-8630 Rueti ZH

Switzerland. = =20 e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C175D6.B800DD00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Nov 25 19:37:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:37:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censorship Message-ID: <000c01c175e8$a50adea0$e0bcf5cd@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C175B6.590FF440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If memory serves me correctly, I recall that co-pilot Loy Norris sent a = letter home with a circular logo of an aircraft and neatly lettered = around the logo was printed "Molesworth Air Field". For what it is worth, there was a story that one censored letter was so = cut out that on a player piano it played, "When The Roll is Called Up = Yonder". =20 Kuykendal's RO Fory=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C175B6.590FF440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If memory serves me correctly, I = recall that=20 co-pilot Loy Norris sent a letter home with a circular logo of an = aircraft and=20 neatly lettered around the logo was printed "Molesworth Air = Field".

For what it is worth, there was a = story that one=20 censored letter was so cut out that on a player piano it played, "When = The Roll=20 is Called Up Yonder".

Kuykendal's RO

Fory

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C175B6.590FF440-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 26 03:30:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:30:32 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censorship References: <000c01c175e8$a50adea0$e0bcf5cd@computer> Message-ID: <3C01B757.27A292D3@attglobal.net> --------------A7648B4946F01578C781C1E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fory ... I never cut out any of my men's letters. I returned them to them with a warning to re-write with less observance of their whereabouts and doings ... I did not then, nor believe now ... that our men would write anything wrong any more than would the officers. But, orders were orders. What bothers me is that todays "youth" does not even understand the need for censoring and other curtailment of the Press ... But then, today's youth does not understand many things .... only 33% of them KNOW that General Washington commanded the troops at the battle of Yorktowne ... AND many do not even know WHO we were fighting in WW#2 (the one we won). Cheers! WCH Fory Barton wrote: > If memory serves me correctly, I recall that co-pilot Loy Norris sent > a letter home with a circular logo of an aircraft and neatly lettered > around the logo was printed "Molesworth Air Field". For what it is > worth, there was a story that one censored letter was so cut out that > on a player piano it played, "When The Roll is Called Up > Yonder". Kuykendal's ROFory --------------A7648B4946F01578C781C1E4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fory ...

I never cut out any of my men's letters. I returned them to them with a warning to re-write with less observance of their whereabouts and doings ... I did not then, nor believe now ... that our men would write anything wrong any more than would the officers. But, orders were orders.

What bothers me is that todays "youth" does not even understand the need for censoring and other curtailment of the Press ... But then, today's youth does not understand many things .... only 33% of them KNOW that General Washington commanded the troops at the battle of Yorktowne ... AND many do not even know WHO we were fighting in WW#2 (the one we won).

Cheers!

WCH

Fory Barton wrote:

If memory serves me correctly, I recall that co-pilot Loy Norris sent a letter home with a circular logo of an aircraft and neatly lettered around the logo was printed "Molesworth Air Field". For what it is worth, there was a story that one censored letter was so cut out that on a player piano it played, "When The Roll is Called Up Yonder". Kuykendal's ROFory

--------------A7648B4946F01578C781C1E4-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Nov 26 21:28:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:28:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censorship Message-ID: Okay, I have never taken part in any of the conversations that discuss politics, the media, etc. Mainly because someone usually says what I would say before I can get to it. But this time I am going to jump in. It has been said by some on this list that our youth today would not understand the need for censorship during a war. I respectfully disagree. I have three sons, 15, 18 and 21. My 18 year old and his friends have informed me that if this country were faced with a major conflict that they would willingly join up. When asked why, they said simply that it is their duty. Yes, duty. Not a word you hear to often anymore. I was never more proud of my son and his friends. I will agree that kids today don't know who fought at Yorktown or what happened in WWII. But I don't completely blame the kids. Every year that my sons have had US history they spend a month or two on Chris Columbus and his fellow explorers. By the time they work there way up to the 20th century, it's May and they blow through the 1900's in a week or so. More time is spent on what happened between the wars, mainly focusing on multi-cultural and women's issues. Now before I get flamed for that comment. Those are appropriate topics. But it is the concentration of time spent on them which is out of proportion that bothers me. The youth of today do have it easier than the early generations, but isn't that true for the last 150 years? To say that they are soft and could understand or handle a wartime situation is unfair in my mind. I base this on the reaction of the youth in my own community, one of the most affluent communities in my state. They were charged up by 9/11 and have remained so to this day. Maybe they will need to have someone explain why we have to do something, but once they understand, they move on appropriately and with fervor. Let's not base our concepts of this generation of teens based on Friends or Dawson's Creek. Or on trash movies like American Beauty. There are good kids and bad kids in every generation, even the greatest generation. Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 27 03:52:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:52:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Censorship Message-ID: <16d.499d700.293467f3@aol.com> Dave, You are right. We must not forget that we were a selected group and we were not selected from the group that went to Canada. Our grandchildren that are over there now are not doing such a bad job either but they are not the run of the mill gang either. The world has been in a constant state of change ever since we came down out of the trees and lost our tails and no doubt will continue to do so weather Darwin was right or wrong. Nuff said. Maybe too much. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 27 03:52:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:52:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs Message-ID: <125.8096538.2934681a@aol.com> Dear John: I flew on that mission on November 26, 1944, and in my diary I mentioned that there were many dog fights with our P-51's, P-47's and the Luftwaffe visible in the distance. Our group bombed the marshaling yards at Osnabruck. A little after bombs away, a B-17 came up on our right with the right wing burning. It was a 358th Squadron plane, N-Nan #42-97972 (303rd Bomb Group) and a man from our barracks was flying as a waist gunner on that crew. His name was Gasper Pizzaloto with Lt. Jameson as pilot. We learned later that the entire crew survived and became POW's. If you have access to the history of the 303rd Bomb Group compiled by Lt. Col. Harry Gobrecht, you will find a great deal of information regarding this mission. The title of the book is Might in Flight, pages 587 to 589. Good Luck in your research. God Bless America! Ray (Sparks) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 01:07:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:07:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs Message-ID: <48.26a25d4.293592b5@aol.com> --part1_48.26a25d4.293592b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You lost me some where along the way when you were on the "CORIOLIS EFFECT". Could you run that again to refresh my memory and educate me on that sbuject - I dsont recall any thing on that subject in cadet training Thank You, clyde henning. --part1_48.26a25d4.293592b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You lost me some where along the way when you were on the "CORIOLIS EFFECT". Could you run that again to refresh my memory and educate me on that sbuject - I dsont recall any thing on that subject in cadet training
             Thank You, clyde henning. --part1_48.26a25d4.293592b5_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Nov 27 20:22:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mary Jo Hangartner) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:22:16 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Paper Dollie Message-ID: Hello. Some of you may have seen the message that I sent last week concerning the Paper Dollie. I have been collecting information for my dad, James M. Pierce, who contributed the crew picture that is posted. When I shared with Dad what I had printed from the 303rd Bomb Group CD which he purchased and from this website, he believes that there were actually two planes, the Paper Doll and the Paper Dollie. Dad insists that his plane was brand new, that his crew flew it from Kearny, Nebraska, themselves. On the CD, the Paper Dollie was listed as flying several missions prior to Dad's arrival in 1944. Does anyone know anything about this? I did see in one place that both Paper Doll and Paper Dollie were listed, but there was nothing after Paper Doll. Thank you for whatever clarification you may be able to provide. Mary Jo Hangartner Daughter of James M. Pierce From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 04:14:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:14:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #438 - 2 msgs References: <20011126173351.6F9B35359A@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000601c177c3$2be76e80$a96cded8@default> John; My name is Loyd Coleman, tail gunner on the WH Petersen crew. 11/26/44 = was my 5th mission about all i can remember was witnessing one plane = going down with the nose section blownoff and some parachutes opened and = streaming out of the nose section. I am 84 yrs old and have forgotten = agood many things. I bailed out with three other crew members on12/31/44 in your = country. It was in the area west and north of Antwerp. After the country = folks identified me as USAF they went all out to help me. My leg was = badley injured in the ground contact that I couldn't walk . they removed = a door from a near by shed and made a stretcher and carried me their = house, the only thing in the house to lie on was this large feather = mattress. as got comfortable here comes a big glass of cognac (sp.). = after drinking the contents down a little they would fill it up again, = this went on for quite some time,I was feeling no pain by now. The military came a took me to a British hospital at the edge of = Antwerp, was there about a week and then I was sent to an American Field = hospital where I spent about 10 days. Finally I made it into Brussels to be evacuated back to my base in = Eng., but due to the Germans and bad weather i was bedded down in an old = livery stable. On 3/15/45 was the last mission of my tour. I have often thought of people that gave help and wish I could have = remembered the names. Loyd Coleman 427sq.303 bg Have a happyXmas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 04:46:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:46:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs Message-ID: <39.1e5bad5e.2935c62f@aol.com> Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me to type. I'd be all night. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 13:03:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:03:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs In-Reply-To: <39.1e5bad5e.2935c62f@aol.com> Message-ID: on 11/27/01 11:46 PM, Jprencher@aol.com at Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because > they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your > phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me to > type. I'd be all night. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com > CORIOLIS FORCE as once explained to me is that which causes water in the john to exit counterclockwise...at least in northern hemispheres. Is this any help? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 14:01:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Larry Smith) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:01:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs References: <39.1e5bad5e.2935c62f@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c17815$3210e960$688c3418@knbunk.adelphia.net> address--Larry Smith---PO Box 1136, Kennebunk, Me. 04043 (303 member) not sure about subject, but always eager to talk with WW II cadets--Regards, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs > Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because > they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your > phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me to > type. I'd be all night. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 15:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:09:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs Message-ID: --part1_bc.1d985947.2936581f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jack I'll give you my snail mail address but dont use the phone - my hearing is such that I cant understand on the phone - I have tried several different phones but they still dont clear it up so I can understand it. My wife can understand on the phone but cant hear it ring if she has the tele on. Anyway here is my snail address: Clyde Henning 13280 Warren Road, Paris, Ohio 44669-9718. aND - I THANK YOU. The Rasin Man. --part1_bc.1d985947.2936581f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jack
  I'll give you my snail mail address but dont use the phone - my hearing is such that I cant understand on the phone - I have tried several different phones but they still dont clear it up so I can understand it. My wife can understand on the phone but cant hear it ring if she has the tele on.
   Anyway here is my snail address: Clyde Henning 13280 Warren Road, Paris,
  Ohio 44669-9718.   aND - I THANK YOU.
                  The Rasin Man. --part1_bc.1d985947.2936581f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 15:53:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:53:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] In-Reply-To: <39.1e5bad5e.2935c62f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128103331.009f32c0@home.1usa.com> Jack, I am a Commercial Pilot, ATP, and Flight Instructor. The only thing I remember about the Corollas Effect when I studied for my CFI II SEME, was the effect the friction of earth on surface wind, would have on the change in direction of the wind at altitude, as much as 90 degs. up at higher altitude. So when flying cross country using Politage, and Dead Reckoning, we would have to interpolate the wind at diffrent altitudes. ie, 3000 ft .6000 ft. 9000 ft and so on. I would like a copy of your info. also. My E-Mail is: p51@1usa.com Ed Frank. 11:46 PM 11/27/01, you wrote: >Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because >they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your >phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 17:07:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:07:55 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs References: <39.1e5bad5e.2935c62f@aol.com> <001001c17815$3210e960$688c3418@knbunk.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3C0519EA.509CCD54@attglobal.net> Smith ... What's this 'cadet' stuff? WCH Larry Smith wrote: > address--Larry Smith---PO Box 1136, Kennebunk, Me. 04043 (303 member) > not sure about subject, but always eager to talk with WW II cadets--Regards, > Larry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs > > > Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets > because > > they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and > your > > phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me > to > > type. I'd be all night. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 17:10:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:10:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128103331.009f32c0@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <3C051A79.390312C9@attglobal.net> Frank ... Won't SOMEONE spell Coriolis Force correctly? Cheers! WCH Edward L Frank wrote: > Jack, I am a Commercial Pilot, ATP, and Flight Instructor. The only thing I > remember about the Corollas Effect when I studied for my CFI II SEME, was > the effect the friction of earth on surface wind, would have on the change > in direction of the wind at altitude, as much as 90 degs. up at higher > altitude. So when flying cross country using Politage, and Dead Reckoning, > we would have to interpolate the wind at diffrent altitudes. ie, 3000 ft > .6000 ft. 9000 ft and so on. I would like a copy of your info. also. > My E-Mail is: p51@1usa.com > Ed Frank. > > 11:46 PM 11/27/01, you wrote: > >Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because > >they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your > >phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. > > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 17:11:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:11:26 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs References: Message-ID: <3C051ABE.B0DE5062@attglobal.net> Hand ... FINALLY it is spelled CORRECTLY ... Thanks. Cheers! WCH Bob Hand wrote: > on 11/27/01 11:46 PM, Jprencher@aol.com at Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because > > they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your > > phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me to > > type. I'd be all night. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com > > > CORIOLIS FORCE as once explained to me is that which causes water in the > john to exit counterclockwise...at least in northern hemispheres. Is this > any help? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 18:24:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:24:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] In-Reply-To: <3C051A79.390312C9@attglobal.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128103331.009f32c0@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128132021.009ecec0@home.1usa.com> Thanks for the spelling lesson, that was you how Jack spelled it, and I just spelled it like he did. I know I should have looked it up, but like I said I never learned much about Coriolis Effect, not even how to spell the word. Cheers, Ed. >Won't SOMEONE spell Coriolis Force correctly? > >Cheers! > >WCH > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 19:25:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:25:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #439 - 12 msgs Message-ID: <141.5614551.29369418@aol.com> History,like good food and love,are wasted on the young.Because it's poorly taught it's boring and therefore rejected.We old fogies have probably learned more about world war 2 from the "History channel" than we ever knew before. And we were there!Today's kids don't know history because their teachers don't know history. Jack Amram 359th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 20:58:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:58:44 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:search for crew members-John Meurs Message-ID: <20011128205844.QLNH15547.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Go to the search mode of your computer and type in "coriolis force" . You will find a number of articles in this subject.....BR > on 11/27/01 11:46 PM, Jprencher@aol.com at Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Clyde, They didn't teach us much about the Corollas effect in Cadets because > > they didn't know really what it is. Send me your snail mail address and your > > phone number and I'll send it to you or phone you. It is too long for me to > > type. I'd be all night. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher (Jprencher@aol.com > > > CORIOLIS FORCE as once explained to me is that which causes water in the > john to exit counterclockwise...at least in northern hemispheres. Is this > any help? Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Nov 28 23:40:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:40:50 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #439 - 12 msgs Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C17833.D23D9140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is so very true. Everything I've learned about WWII I have read or = found out on my own. I'm 38 y/o and I was taught very little in school ab= out it. =20 Lance Burrell ----- Original Message ----- From: AmramSr@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:46 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #439 - 12 msgs History,like good food and love,are wasted on the young.Because it's poor= ly taught it's boring and therefore rejected.We old fogies have probably lea= rned more about world war 2 from the "History channel" than we ever knew befor= e. And we were there!Today's kids don't know history because their teachers don't know history. Jack Amram 359th ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C17833.D23D9140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is so ver= y true. Everything I've learned about WWII I have read or found out= on my own. I'm 38 y/o and I was taught very little in school about it.&n= bsp;

Lance Burrell

----- Original Message -----

From: AmramSr@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:46 = PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.c= om

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:= 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #439 - 12 msgs

History,l= ike good food and love,are wasted on the young.Because it's poorly
tau= ght it's boring and therefore rejected.We old fogies have probably learne= d
more about world war 2 from the "History channel" than we ever knew = before.
And we were there!Today's kids don't know history because thei= r teachers
don't know history.
= &= nbsp; &n= bsp; &nb= sp; Jack Amram 359th

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C17833.D23D9140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 01:46:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:46:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] Message-ID: <45.fb049c4.2936ed8d@aol.com> WCH, I thought I spelled Corolis correctly but my computer didn't like it that way so I changed it. I thought it was smarter than I am. I was wrong again. I pushed skip this time. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 06:57:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:57:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <00dc01c178a3$23559c20$e27ae03f@hoytwma2> I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held responsible to some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went thru. They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive and my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, she got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you guys went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, but for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very grateful. These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools which help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all of you. May God bless Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crew From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 09:20:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:20:49 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] History learning References: <141.5614551.29369418@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c178fd$5695c740$b024fd3e@o7b6a3> Jack Amram says that he, as one who fought in the war, has learned more about that war from the History Channel, than he ever knew from fighting in it. Of course, he is right. No individual (unless he's perhaps he was an FDR, Winston Churchill or Ike) can be privilege to the overall view of things, at the time they happen. The likes of the History Channel does then afford us the opportunity to learn about the 'grand plan' as it were. Having said that, let's not forget that this whole correspondence started with my mentioning the 'untruth' given out by this illustrious TV channel which incorrectly stated that only the light bombers of the 9th USAAF saw action on D-Day (6/6/44), when anyone involved with the 303rd knows that, amongst others, it had a number of missions over France that day. So, Jack, whilst I agree that on the whole the likes of the History Channel can be a vehicle for learning, don't believe everything you see and hear on it because some of it just is not factual. They often, unwittingly I'm sure, sometimes offer a more fictional, than factual, history lesson. Ray Cossey England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 20:09:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:09:00 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] References: <45.fb049c4.2936ed8d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0695DC.311C7DD6@attglobal.net> Jack ... NO computer is smarter than either YOU or ME! instead, they have an innards which will do amazing things PROVIDING YOU AND I ENTER THE PROPER INFORMATION ... Let us not give away our control to some mass of wires and chips! We've already given away our lives to the 535 Solons with room temperature IQs who reside on either side of that huge dome in Washington ... Coriolis or no ... WHY do we even give a damn about it? It is THERE, so we LIVE with it. And for all those pseudo pilots who would imagine our speeds varying because of all these things ... it really does not matter. We are flying in a mass of air over a mass of land ... even our indicated airspeed is of no value for we have another airspeed called TRUE airspeed affected by a lot of variables .... In a train going 80 mph, the bag over my head, in the rack over the seat in which I am sitting .... FALLS OFF THE RACK .... and it does NOT fall a few feet farther back than where I sit just because the train is moving .... so, let's try to figure THAT one out instead of all these ephemeral things, eh? Ruth joins me, Jack, in wishing you a very Happy Holiday Season. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > WCH, I thought I spelled Corolis correctly but my computer didn't like it > that way so I changed it. I thought it was smarter than I am. I was wrong > again. I pushed skip this time. > Best Wishes, > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 20:25:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:25:21 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <00dc01c178a3$23559c20$e27ae03f@hoytwma2> Message-ID: <3C0699B0.FB9A70FC@attglobal.net> Bill Hoyt ... Your treatise is very touching and very well said. We, too, grew up in the great depression, and it WAS a great depression. When you see grown men, with families at home, searching garbage bins ... you get a sick feeling. In our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was requested, by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did not yet have FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to feed FIVE families. For $5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which would take care of a family of four. Dad fed FIVE families. I sometimes went with Dad as he distributed these grocery orders. I went to school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES! My Dad demanded that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make a difference in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say nasty things. When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for dinner last night?" ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked Mom to serve such things as bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and other dishes which were well known in the depression era. We even had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era ... but we saw it all around us. But, to add poignant stories, I have one ... to wit. After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in various places in the world in my post war career as an airline pilot ... at one time we lived in Rome, Italy for 6 years. Upon finally returning home to live in my old home town for a spell, we had to buy a house. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and I went to a relatively new Appliance Store and bought many things, including a Refrigerator. Washer and Dryer. Stove.Television, and other smaller appliances. The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our new house. Fine. We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one day I stopped by the Appliance Store and asked for the Owner or Manager. Upon introduction, I asked why I never got my bill, there must be some mistake and I want to pay it. The Owner sat me down in his "office" and he said, "Bill, you do not know me, do you?" I told him I did not except that now I knew he owned this store. Then he said, "Bill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO YEARS during the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill and WILL GET NO BILL?" This reduced me to tears. And THAT is one of my memories of a great depression where American families deported themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW. Now, let's go get those terrorists! Cheers! WCH hoytwma2 wrote: > I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held responsible to > some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. > I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went thru. > They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive and > my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, she > got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. > This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you guys > went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, but > for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very > grateful. > These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools which > help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all of > you. May God bless > > Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crew From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 20:35:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:35:44 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb approach school Message-ID: Hi list, I just received a letter from a former WWII bombardier. In early 1942 he was assigned to Jimmy Stewart's plane while Stewart went through Bomb Approach School. Was this a normal part of pilot training? In the schedule of training where did this occur? What did you do in this school? I am guessing that y'all took a plane, flew to a target, dropped a bomb (dummy or real) and flew back. Also, when did you drop your first live bomb? While in training or on the enemy? Thanks!! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 22:35:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:35:41 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb approach school Message-ID: <20011129223542.SWDZ5540.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> We dropped our first live bomb on the enemy. Bill runnels, bombardier > Hi list, > I just received a letter from a former WWII bombardier. In early 1942 he > was assigned to Jimmy Stewart's plane while Stewart went through Bomb > Approach School. Was this a normal part of pilot training? In the schedule > of training where did this occur? What did you do in this school? I am > guessing that y'all took a plane, flew to a target, dropped a bomb (dummy or > real) and flew back. > > Also, when did you drop your first live bomb? While in training or on the > enemy? > > Thanks!! > Dave > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Nov 29 17:18:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mary Jo Hangartner) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:18:39 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduce myself! Message-ID: Hello, everyone. My name is Mary Jo and my dad, James M. Pierce, was a member of the 303rd Bomb Group. He served as the ball turret gunner in a B17, Paper Doll or Dollie, in June and July of 1944. I am interested in learning more about this time of his life and to collect information for him in his retirement. As we have watched movies and I have collected information for him, there are some missing pieces, and we both enjoy seeing if others remember them as Dad does. He never really talked about his WWII experiences until the movie MEMPHIS BELLE came out in 1992(?). Dad does not own a computer and has probably never looked at the Internet, so I am the messenger. I will be reading with interest. Mary Jo From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 30 03:46:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:46:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Coriolis Effect Message-ID: <006a01c17951$9286bc60$b578e03f@hoytwma2> My daughter thinks you guys are the greatest for continuing to discuss 'her' school assignment. Bill Hoyt Coriolis Effect: Coriolis effect is an inertial force described by the 19th-century French engineer-mathematician Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis in 1835. Coriolis showed that, if the ordinary Newtonian laws of motion of bodies are to be used in a rotating frame of reference, an inertial force--acting to the right of the direction of body motion for counterclockwise rotation of the reference frame or to the left for clockwise rotation--must be included in the equations of motion. The effect of the Coriolis force is an apparent deflection of the path of an object that moves within a rotating coordinate system. The object does not actually deviate from its path, but it appears to do so because of the motion of the coordinate system. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 30 06:52:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:52:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bomb approach school Message-ID: <109.97bd0db.293886a1@aol.com> Hi Dave, There was a dial on our instrument panel call a PDI (Pilot Direction Indicator). I suppose training procedures differed at different times and different training bases. As I best remember the first experience I had with training the Bombardier was in RTU (Replacement Training Units) In bombing manually the pilots job is to maintain constant air speed, altitude, and keep the PDI needle centered. When the bombardier adjusted his bombsight to kill his drift the PDI would go off center. The pilots then turned the plane to center the needle and keep it centered until Bombs away. As we approached the drop point the corrections should get smaller and smaller until at the drop point the drift was completely killed and the drift line in the bombsight was steady on the target. When the C-1 autopilot was used we did not use the PDI. When the Bombardier adjusted his drift knob the bombsight sent it to the auto pilot and the autopilot turned the plane accordingly. All the pilots had to do was hold altitude and air speed. We did this training after the crew was put together in RTU. I'm not sure if we ever dropped a live bomb in training for sure. I seem to remember we did though. Our practice bomb were little blue fellows filled with 100 pounds of sand. I think some if not all of them had a little charge in them so we could see a bit of smoke when they landed. I was a copilot in RTU and had learned to fly B17s in a gunnery training school. I had about 1000 hours or so 1st pilot time at the school but probably did not have the same training as the combat First pilots got. I hope you hear from one of them. They might have used the PDI there. Most of them had 100 or so hours training as B17 first pilots when they got to RTU. Most of the Copilots had never been in a B17 before RTU and probably were fresh out of cadets. On our bombardier training missions in RTU when we got to the target we would drop one bomb at a time and make runs over and over until all our bombs were gone before we returned to base. Hope I have answered all your questions. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Nov 30 23:42:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:42:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <3C07B70D.12538.285897@localhost> What was the procedure for promoting a copilot to First Pilot? Was it as simple as passing a check-ride or did the first original first pilot have to recommend his copilot for promotion? Did the copilot initiate the move to first pilot? I know some of you made that move. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com