From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:03:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam Message-ID: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at the subscriber list from the info page: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001501c0d1cf$4b7d1d20$21f833cf@richards> LLOYD: THE CONTROL CABLES WERE VULNERABLE TO BATTLE DAMAGE . AS A LAST RESORT YOU COULD FLY THE AIRPLANE ON AUTO PILOT AS THE SERVOS FOR EACH CONTROL WERE AT THE GIVEN CONTROL OR VERY CLOSE THEY RAN ON ELECTRIC CURRENT SUPPLIED FROM THE AUTO PILOT. I KNOW OF SEVERAL PILOTED WHO SUCCESSFULLY FLEW HOME ON AUTO PILOT AND EVEN LANDED THE PLANE. SPIDER P.S. I FLEW THE B17 AFTER THE WAR IN THE 3171ST ELECTRONIC RESEARCH SQUADRON AT ROME NY "GRIFFIS AFB." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AEDF8A5.26BA3A4F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Re control cables, etc. On a mission, the pilot turned on his AFCE and their servo motors were close to the point of actuation of various controls. If your cables were shot out you could use the AFCE. One time my brother landed his B17 at Molesworth with all the cables laying on the floor the length of the fuselage. He did it all with AFCE. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:43:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:15:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:15:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker Message-ID: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he had passed away. Don't know just when. Ed From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:15:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:15:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker References: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Message-ID: <000701c0d1dc$33c913c0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Ed. I am glad that J.C. Barker survived to live out his life. I don't know much about him, except that on that one day he and Roy Smith saved the life of my father and at least seven other men. The story my dad told me was not very "pretty". It haunts me in away. None-the-less... there are never enough words in the dictionary to properly define the admiration and gratitude, nor, the esteem we have for everyone of you. I hope you understand. Very best, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Lamme" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker > Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member > of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he > had passed away. Don't know just when. > > Ed > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:31:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c0d1de$f6139fc0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, sir. Desperate , or, brave, (likely both) your engineer is typical of many untold stories. I genuinely appreciate your comments on the subject. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit > with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down > withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back > and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main > cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he > always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:48:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:48:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam References: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> Message-ID: <003301c0d1e0$d7a702a0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, and all, "paranoia strikes deep..." as the song says. Why someone gets their "jollies" from trying to ruin a beautiful thing like the internet is a bit depressing. I guess there will always be something evil forever envious of what is good. Grant. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam > > I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk > list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. > Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some > automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at > the subscriber list from the info page: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:54:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing References: <54.13c0cf3c.281f43ba@aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c0d1e1$a6fcb540$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Don't believe a word of it , Bob. :---)0 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing More "how we got to England." Perusal of my records shows travel time from Kearny, Nebr. to Prestwick, Scotland: B-17G -Aircraft # 42-97238 (Wonder what it's ultimate fate was?) 3/11/44 - Depart Kearny, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 50 min. 3/21/44 - Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Presque Isle, ME AFB.........2 hrs, 20 min. 3/22/44 - Depart Presque Isle, Arrive Goose Bay, Lab…………….4 hrs, 35 min. 3/24/44 - Depart Goose Bay, Lab. Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 30 min. 3/26/44 - Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Prestwick, Scot........6 hrs, 35 min. Total flying time: 29:50 (Sure hated to give up that bird!) Note: Our stop in Presque Isle was a result of a "mysterious problem" with our radios. Fact was we just hated to leave the USA, so landed to have "problem" fixed, figuring if they probed enough they would find something. Sure enough, it worked, as they found a nonexistent fault; we RONd there and departed the next morning Regards, Bob Kerr From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 05:12:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:12:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. Thanks, Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to date > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's offer > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pfico" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > your > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > > viewers please? > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > Regards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 04:58:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:58:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Hi Lloyd, > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > Thanks, > Gordy. > > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to > date > > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's > offer > > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "pfico" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > > your > > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list > of > > > viewers please? > > > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 06:56:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:56:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000f01c0d203$6e030380$b909f4cc@e0y0k4> Double eh, eh? Nice of you to do this for all of us, Lloyd. Cheers to you, too, mate. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, > if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. > I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the > tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. > Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Hi Lloyd, > > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government > wouldn't > > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > > Thanks, > > Gordy. > > > > ************************************** > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 129 Mariko Place > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > > gordy@saltspring.com > > ************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 09:48:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 04:48:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 13:29:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:29:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob re 43-38737 Message-ID: Thank you, Moofy, for your info on #737....she did herself proud, I guess you'd say and the Kingman chopper-upper was more than she deserved. Hope you are well in health and spirit.....Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:34:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:34:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:49:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:49:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: China Rescue Mission Message-ID: <002001c0d256$4c578b40$5c3f22d1@billowen> ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: China Rescue Mission > I think the members will find this very interesting reading. I did. Bill Owen > > > AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE > > > CHINA RESCUE MISSION > > > April 12, 2001 > > > By Captain Guy Greider > > > Continental Airlines > > > Since the mid-air collision on April 1, 2001 > > > between a U.S. Navy EP-3 surveillance aircraft and a > > > Chinese jet fighter, I had watched the news with mild > > > interest. This was mostly due to the proximity of Guam to > > > China. I never dreamed that I would play a role in this > > > intensely watched international drama. > > > Somewhere in the negotiations between the United > > > States and the Chinese Governments, it was decided that a > > > civilian aircraft should be sent to retrieve the 24 > > > crewmembers being detained on Hainan Island, China. A > > > call was made to Continental Airlines headquarters in > > > Houston, Texas. Continental was chosen because of its > > > Guam base and its ability to launch this kind of > > > operation at a moment s notice. From there, the operation > > > took shape through the tireless efforts of many people > > > working behind the scenes in a coordinated effort between > > > the airline, the military, and the State Department. > > > On Saturday, April 7, 2001, I received a call at > > > home from Captain Ralph Freeman, Continental Micronesia > > > Director of Flight Operations. Ralph told me that the > > > military wanted to charter one of our jets to conduct a > > > rescue mission and asked if I would be one of the > > > crewmembers. I said yes without hesitation. > > > Later we were told that we would need to get passport > > > pictures taken in case the Chinese Government required > > > visas. We got the required photos and were under the > > > impression that we would leave immediately. However, the > > > negotiations slowed over the demand from the Chinese that > > > the U.S. issue an apology that the U.S. was unwilling to > > > give. Meanwhile, the Continental crew remained on call 24 > > > hours a day. Our Uniforms were laid out and our bags were > > > packed and waiting by the door. > > > On Wednesday evening April 11, 2001, at about 6:30 PM > > > Ralph called again to say that the two parties were very > > > close to an agreement to release the U.S. crew and to > > > come to the airport. Upon arrival, we were given a > > > briefing sheet listing the information that we would need > > > to conduct the flight. > > > We would carry a Repatriation Team consisting of Navy, > > > Marine Corps, and Air Force specialists, 14 people in > > > all. Doctors, Psychologists, and communications people > > > with lots of gear showed up on the ramp near the > > > airplane, ready to board. They were all dressed in casual > > > civilian clothes. > > > The 155-seat jet was fitted with 2 full stretcher kits > > > bolted in over rows of seats complete with Oxygen tanks > > > and I.V. bottles. They did not know the condition of the > > > 24 detained crewmembers and they were not going to take > > > any chances. They were prepared. > > > When our crew was fully assembled, it consisted of 11 > > > people. 2 pilots to fly the jet and an extra to provide > > > relief because of the extensive flight time involved. > > > They were Captain Tom Pinardo, Captain Pierre Frenay and > > > I. We also carried 5 very experienced Flight Attendants. > > > They were Debbie Percell, Susanne Hendricks, Jean Tang, > > > Cynthia Iverson, and Beverly Haines. Our 2 onboard > > > mechanics were Peter Lum and Julius Aguilo. Our load > > > planner was Mike Torres. > > > At about 9:30 PM we received a call asking that we arrive > > > in China no earlier than 6:00 AM, just about sunrise. It > > > was obvious that the entire exchange would be > > > photographed and they wanted daylight conditions. We > > > estimated that a 2:15 AM departure from Guam would put us > > > on the ground in Haikou precisely at 6:00 AM local China > > > time. (2 hours earlier than Guam) Some of us just stayed > > > on the plane, others accepted the company s invitation to > > > come to the Continental President s Club, a local VIP > > > lounge at the airport to try to get some rest. It was > > > difficult to get any rest with our much-anticipated > > > mission so near. > > > By 1:00 AM the pilots were back in the briefing room > > > going over the weather, flight plan, fuel requirements > > > and everything else that goes into a flight. Again, we > > > loaded up the airplane and finally departed Guam > > > International at precisely 2:15 AM. > > > The stretcher kits and medical gear were not the only > > > special additions to the airplane. The company had loaded > > > a special file into the navigation database of the flight > > > management computer (FMC). This allowed us to gain access > > > to navigation data needed to operate in this part of > > > China, which is not in our normal route structure. The > > > Repatriation Team carried sophisticated equipment to > > > communicate with the military and government officials > > > that would monitor our progress throughout the flight. > > > The route of flight took us straight west from Guam > > > toward the Philippines along the G467 airway. About half > > > way across we turned north directly toward Hong Kong. > > > This routing was designed to avoid flying through > > > Taiwanese airspace, something that the Chinese could > > > consider offensive. > > > Approaching the Chinese coastline, we contacted Hong Kong > > > radar control. After establishing radar contact with us, > > > the controller gave us a short cut to expedite his > > > traffic flow. This was bad because it cut off > > > considerable distance and would result in arriving too > > > early. We compensated by slowing our airspeed until the > > > computer again estimated a 6:00 AM arrival. The instant > > > we turned across the short cut, the interphone rang from > > > the back of the plane. They wanted to know why we had > > > deviated from the flight plan. We told them it was due to > > > Hong Kong traffic and that we had adjusted our airspeed. > > > We were still on schedule. > > > Now we were approaching our destination, Haikou airport > > > on Hainan Island. Captain Pierre Frenay was at the > > > controls. The weather was 2000-ft overcast with 5 miles > > > visibility and light winds out of the east. Pierre made > > > an ILS approach to and landed on runway 9. Haikou airport > > > is much the same as many other airports in the world that > > > serve jet transport aircraft. It has an 11,000-ft runway > > > with standard lighting and navigational facilities. We > > > touched down at 6:07 AM. The first early morning light > > > was beginning to illuminate the sky. > > > The local air traffic controller instructed us to follow > > > a vehicle that was beside us on an adjacent taxiway. He > > > led us to a remote part of the airport, away from the > > > main terminal buildings. Once we had parked and shut down > > > the engines, we saw many uniformed Chinese military > > > personnel and vehicles. They did not appear to have > > > weapons. Portable stairs were brought up to the airplane > > > and we opened the main cabin door. > > > The Repatriation Team that we carried had been briefed to > > > close down all of their communications equipment prior to > > > landing and put it away. They were also briefed to remain > > > in their seats in a non-threatening posture in case the > > > Chinese military came aboard. The first and only person > > > to come aboard was an Air China employee. He spoke > > > English and was to act as the translator between our > > > group and the Chinese military. He instructed us to have > > > everyone fill out both arrival and departure documents. > > > He collected all of our passports and left the aircraft. > > > Before he left, he said that only one person at a time > > > would be allowed to deplane. > > > Peter Lum, one of our mechanics went down to supervise > > > the re-fueling and servicing of the airplane. When that > > > was complete, I went down to do the walk-around > > > inspection. I did this rather slowly because I wanted to > > > have a chance to look around. While I was out on the > > > ramp, a skirmish developed between people who were trying > > > to climb a wall to photograph our aircraft and the > > > Chinese police. Somehow, CNN managed to carry our arrival > > > and departure live. > > > Once the airplane was serviced and ready to go, we looked > > > anxiously around for any sign of the buses that carried > > > our 24 detainees. Before that could happen however, we > > > had a problem to deal with. A U.S. military General who > > > was on the scene to assist in the transfer came storming > > > up the stairs and demanded to speak with the Captain. Tom > > > Pinardo responded. The General said that the entire > > > mission was now in jeopardy. A document called the > > > general declaration, which is standard on all > > > international flights had listed the destination as > > > Haikou, China R.O.C. The initials ROC stand for Republic > > > of China which is .. Taiwan! The Chinese were very upset > > > over this. Tom quickly crossed out ROC and replaced it > > > with P.R.O.C. the Peoples Republic of China. This seemed > > > to satisfy them. > > > With the airplane ready to go and the paperwork complete, > > > 2 buses pulled up and the 24 U.S. service men and women > > > saluted as they bolted up the stairs and settled into the > > > back of the plane. When the last one was aboard, our > > > passports were returned to us. The stairs were withdrawn, > > > the cabin door closed, and we started the engines and > > > departed. It was my turn at the controls. > > > Once airborne heading straight south we broke through the > > > clouds into the bright sunshine. Pierre made a PA > > > announcement that we were over international waters and > > > leaving Chinese airspace. A great cheer rose from the > > > back of the airplane. A short while later we received a > > > telephone patch over the HF radio from Mr. Joseph > > > Prueher, U.S Ambassador to China. He wanted to speak with > > > Lt. Shane Osborne the 26 year old EP-3 Aircraft > > > Commander. Lt. Osborne came to the cockpit and put on a > > > headset. The Ambassador told him that on behalf of the > > > President of the United States and the entire country he > > > wanted to say welcome home . He went on to say how proud > > > he was of everything the crew had done from their > > > airmanship in saving the lives of the crew and aircraft, > > > to their conduct on the ground once they had been > > > detained. They had truly done an excellent job. > > > After his conversation with the Ambassador, Lt. Osborne > > > stayed in the cockpit for quite a while and told us his > > > story pilot to pilot of what had happened during and > > > immediately after the mid-air collision with the F-8 > > > Chinese fighter. The fighter came up under their left > > > wing. This pilot made 2 very close passes previously that > > > day. He apparently misjudged the intercept and his > > > vertical stabilizer struck the outboard left propeller on > > > the EP-3. The U.S. plane was in straight and level flight > > > on autopilot at the time. > > > The fighter broke into two pieces and plunged into the > > > sea. The U.S. plane rolled to the left almost inverted, > > > the pilot lost control and they began to lose altitude. > > > The Chinese fighter had raked back across the fuselage > > > and knocked off the nose cone causing the aircraft to > > > buffet wildly. When the nose cone departed the aircraft > > > it collided with and damaged the number 4 propeller on > > > the right wing. The collision punctured the pressure > > > vessel and the EP-3 depressurized. The collision also > > > knocked off the pitot tubes eliminating airspeed and > > > altitude indications in the cockpit. It also knocked off > > > the forward bracket for the HF radio antenna. The antenna > > > then flew back and wrapped around the tail. > > > We were almost upside down and totally out of control > > > Osborne told us. The dive continued and some crew members > > > donned parachutes. At about 8,000 feet, Osborne regained > > > straight and level flight. They considered ditching the > > > aircraft in the South China Sea but dismissed that option > > > because it was certain to result in loss of life. They > > > headed for the nearest land, Hainan Island. The U.S. crew > > > now faced the most difficult landing of their lives. They > > > made numerous mayday, mayday, mayday radio calls on > > > internationally recognized emergency frequencies. The > > > Chinese did not respond. Somehow, they managed to get the > > > airplane on the ground. > > > Their next immediate task was to destroy the sensitive > > > electronic surveillance equipment aboard the EP-3. > > > Meanwhile the Chinese military had approached the > > > aircraft in vehicles and were yelling at them through > > > loudspeakers to deplane. The next 11 days would be a very > > > uncertain time for them. > > > When we met them, they told us that they had not been > > > abused or mistreated. Their food was adequate and > > > plentiful. Sort of like eating in a Chinese restaurant > > > every day one of them said. On the forth day, they got > > > some coffee. On the fifth day, some cokes were provided. > > > The crew did not know what kind of transport would be > > > provided for their return home. They were pleased and > > > surprised to see a chartered airliner from the United > > > States. > > > The rest of the flight from Haikou to Anderson AFB on > > > Guam was uneventful. During the 5 hour flight the crew > > > was treated to the movie Men of Honor and enjoyed a > > > first class meal. We did not know it at the time but our > > > landing at Anderson AFB was carried live on national > > > television. > > > We taxied to the parking ramp at Anderson where many > > > people had turned out to welcome all of us home. > > > Individuals and families with kids, both military and > > > civilian waved American flags and cheered, showing > > > support for the returning U.S. spy plane crew. > > > Once the 24 U.S. crewmembers and the military > > > Repatriation Team had deplaned at Anderson, they > > > immediately boarded waiting buses and were whisked away. > > > The Continental crew then became the object of intense > > > media attention. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, Reuters and > > > various print media interviewed us. A dizzying swirl of > > > attention after a very long day. > > > We were happy, tired, and pleased that the mission was so > > > successful as Tom flew the last segment, a 10-minute > > > flight back to Guam International Airport. This time our > > > passengers included Bill Meehan, President of Continental > > > Micronesia, Guam Governor Carl Gutierrez, Lieutenant > > > Governor Bordallo and others. > > > We thought the day was just about over but we had one > > > more surprise in store. After landing, we were given a > > > hero s welcome of our own. The airport fire department > > > was in place to give us the traditional water cannon > > > salute, a rainbow arch of water for us to taxi under. A > > > reception was held at the gate with food, balloons, > > > commemorative plaques, and more media interviews with the > > > local television station. This was very heady stuff. > > > As I look back on this one of a kind operation. It could > > > not have happened without the tremendous effort and > > > skills of many. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:24:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:24:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: Message-ID: <005601c0d25e$bbf79e60$4f09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Spec, No, I'm a long way from there. I live on an island off the Canadian west coast, between the BC mainland and Vancouver Island. Salt Spring Island is in the Strait of Georgia (Juan de Fuca). Lovely place, and has the best climate in Canada. Hardly any snow in the winter (very rarely). Our climate is classed as a temperate rain forest, but it rains only in the winter. The summers are warm and dry. If you want to have a real look, check out this link: http://www.gulfislands.com/ By the way, I am just starting to read "Three Engines, Half a Wing, and a Prayer", revised edition. It sure is a well written book, and hard to put down. It takes a while to read though, because I keep going back to read things as I go. I may have a question or two for you guys. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:12:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: Message-ID: <001c01c0d259$7fb40380$ecb34d0c@o3n4f8> Anne, did I forget to add "skillful" and "resourceful". From what I have read, many young ( and some not so young ) flight engineers proved their mettle. I am proud to share the last name. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and > possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, > broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. > His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a > strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he > couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. > On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the > Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. > 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to > touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 21:16:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Sontag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:16:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <200105012016.NAA26591@mail5.bigmailbox.com> My name is James Sontag and I'm 35 years old. I live in San Antonio Texas and collect books on Unit Histories and the air war from World War II. I have never been in the military but have great admiration for all who served our country and those that still do. I am happily married and my wife will object to me spending so much on books. As I always tell her, there are worse things to spend my money on and I also add that I'm doing this for her future, alot of the books are rare and will only go up in value. I'm excited about this group and can't wait to hear from all. Thanks! James Sontag ------------------------------------------------------------ The Official Iron Maiden Website: http://www.ironmaiden.com More Metal at: http://www.metal-is.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 23:57:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:57:46 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <20010501225747.KQMK6429.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Welcome Jim, a lot of us spent time in San Antonio during the war. I was there for Army Air Corps Classification in the spring of 1944. Then to Midland for Advanced Bombardier School. Hope you enjoy 303rd- Talk. Best regards, ...Bill Runnels, bombardier, 303rd BG, 360th Squadron. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:50:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:50:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for me... *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only knew what they were in for. *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st USAAF raids from the base. *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It was tough in the E.T.O.??? Thanks to all involved. Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:53:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:53:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <36.15299e74.281df472@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b501c0d2bc$9a100680$2309f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, My father went over and back by ship. When he went over, they were in = convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of three = weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was good. When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than 5 days on a Dutch = ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months in prison = camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG. One other thing. Dad told me on the way over, no one got sick, as = they were in good shape, and had just finished all their air training. = No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with mostly ex-kriegies, = and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. It got so = bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board = couldn't care less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American = soil. Dad said (and I have heard this from a number of vets) that the = sight of the Statue of Liberty was one of the finest sights in the = world. Many of the men cried when they saw it. They were home at last. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Hi to All:=20 Hope you all are well. How long would it take, on average, to = travel=20 from the States to England. I know some went in a B-17 and some went = by=20 ship. Did more crews fly or go by ship. Thank again. = =20 Brooklyn Bill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
My father went over and back by ship. When he went = over, they=20 were in convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of = three=20 weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was = good.
When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than = 5 days on=20 a Dutch ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months = in prison=20 camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying=20 career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG.
    One other thing. Dad told me on = the way=20 over, no one got sick, as they were in good shape, and had just finished = all=20 their air training. No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with = mostly=20 ex-kriegies, and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. = It got=20 so bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch=20 crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board couldn't = care=20 less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American soil. Dad said = (and I=20 have heard this from a number of vets) that the sight of the Statue of = Liberty=20 was one of the finest sights in the world. Many of the men cried when = they saw=20 it. They were home at last.
Gordy.
 
**************************************
"Our = freedom is not=20 free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L. = Alton
129=20 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1
cell 250-537-6706 = fax=20 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= ******************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 = 3:49=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no = subject)

Hi to All:=20
   Hope you all are well.  How long would it = take, on=20 average, to travel
from the States to England.  I know some = went in a=20 B-17 and some went by
ship.  Did more crews fly or go by = ship.=20  Thank again.=20 =             &= nbsp;          =20 =
           &nb= sp;         Brooklyn=20 Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:24:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:24:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <000901c0d2b7$63979320$541b4e0c@o3n4f8> Todd, it is gratifying to know that the effort was not in vain, and , that if nothing other has been accomplished, this tape has brought us all closer together. I will forward Harry Goebrechts remarks regarding the tape to the "Group" ( as opposed to "forum" , "ring", or any other term.). We are the 303rd BGA, and I feel like we are a Group. " All for one, and one for all". Thanks for letting me know, Todd. "Heads up, Mr. Jones". Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape > There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New > Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The > quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for > me... > > *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing > how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only > knew what they were in for. > *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. > *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and > muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st > USAAF raids from the base. > *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all > taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It > was tough in the E.T.O.??? > > Thanks to all involved. > > Todd- > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 15:35:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:35:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, 7POW, over Huls. Gordy ******************************* ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 14:18:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:18:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <010401c0d30a$5c42f6c0$a5194e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Gordy. I don't know what significance this photo might have had to my father. Maybe it was just a random photo. Whatever, before it was a ragged old picture of a B17. Now, there are human faces and names the photo has a new meaning. Odd , 'ey? Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little > confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of > the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, > 7POW, over Huls. > Gordy > ******************************* > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers > looks > > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white > square, > > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:34:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:34:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: James- Short note , I was a BTG in the 303rd, 358th- we flew our 35 and our nose gunner/toggelier was from San Antonio; his name was Francis X Quig, believe he is de ceased, but I think he still has relatives in the area. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:45:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:45:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 18:55:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 07:55:25 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010502075525.0096cbc0@ilhawaii.net> Bill, I wasn't on that trip, but we went over in Ile de France in september of 44. Did they still have the same lousy food. I survived on candy bars and cookies from the on board px? Jim Walling also a btg in the 358th At 12:45 PM 5/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home >on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the >first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the >Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them >jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a >wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in >knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? >Bill Carter > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:09:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: Message-ID: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first ship in after Germany surrendered Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:30:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:30:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: thanks gordy. will take a look. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:50:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:50:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Jim 14000 on board-2 meals a day, both bad! Send me your mail address, I think I might have an old photo of you taken outside a barracks-were you in the 358th? Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:51:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:51:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: reread your note and I see you were in the 358th Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 02:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:32:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000d01c0d370$e4dc13c0$e58e4d0c@o3n4f8> Spider, Please forward your tape to : Bob Rettinhouse, 760 W. Cambridge, Fresno, CA. 93705-5008. ( gunner 359th ). Thank you. I will let Bob know that the tape is on the way to him. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 06:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:56:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AF0F2FF.3170D358@attglobal.net> Yup, Spider, the Ile de France was a great ship. My Mom and Dad cruised on her many times in the post war (the one we won) period. Me, I flew home. Even piloted the plane. Have you tried the QB's in Hemet yet? CHeers! Bill Heller Dick Smith wrote: > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 08:43:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 03:43:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> After the surrender I was sent from the 303rd to the 351st at Polebrook to await transfer to the Pacific as a radar mechanic.The end of the war didn't impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned.I'm in Arizona and know a lot of combat planes were flown back to Kingman and Tucson and sold for scrap,but since the civilians had gone thru 3 1/2 years of gas rationing the government would hardly waste the fuel to bring back unneeded warplanes.Saw where a British farmer bought a surplus Westland Lysander for a few pounds just for the fuel it contained,left it sitting in his field and now it has a huge tree growing thru it.At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 13:50:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:50:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> Message-ID: > The end of the war didn't > impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) > had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned. My father flew back a brand new plane (43-39434) that had just been delivered to the 8th AF a month before the war ended. I don't think it saw any action, since it was never assigned to a bomb group. Even though brand new, they still chopped it up at Kingman. I think the Army still had plans to sell all the B-17s at that time. I think it was only after they weren't able to sell them whole that they decided to scrap them, but I may be wrong. > At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 > jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded > by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so > little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Among my father's things, I found 2 property turn in slips. One, filled out the day he left England, had things like sub-machine guns, pistols, trench knives, binoculars, etc. All but the Binoculars were listed as "EXS" , which supposedly meant "in excess of authorized allowances", but I think this inferred that they were being turned in as unnecessary (at least that is what it meant when I worked for the Army). The second turn in slip was filled out at Bradley Field, Conn, after he flew back. It had things like parachutes, life vests, etc, etc, that were used on the flight back. All these things were kept track of very carefully, then probably sold for next to nothing. Ie, it is not unlike the Army to be incredibly wasteful, but the Army generally thinks about it for a few years before being wasteful. When I worked for the Army, they even tried to sell the trash, but ended up throwing away millions of $ worth of good "excess" stuff. I know people who were on good terms with the people who threw things away, and arranged to follow them them to the dump. The "trash" was still government property until it was dumped. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:09:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE;-SURPLUS - BURNING -EXS Message-ID: <000e01c0d3f3$c98abbc0$2bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Didn't realize the "job" of burning was that wide spread. After V-E Day we had orders to recalll all clothing, parts etc for packing and shipping to SAD - reparable and serviceable parts etc including flight clothing. We had reached our deadline and all parts etc had been shipped out. The nex day or two here comes one or two of the squadrons with more flight suits and B-1 jackets. --- The pile was12-13 ft in diameter and about 5-6 foot high ----100 octane gas and a match took care of that. They even drove a Cletrac over new wing panels and put them in the scrap pile. Upsetting to say the least.. should have "liberated" a jacket! Carry on! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:26:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant
B-17F-95-BO,  42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned
410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943,
Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW,
Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 17:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:23:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c0d3ed$56d6c700$e31b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. It is curious how this photo got into the mix of the few things left from my fathers collection. His first tour was finished in mid March of '43 before the "Black Kitten" had even been delivered. I suppose there could be several valid explainations for this, however. In any case, I appreciate you and Bill Jones taking the time to look this up for me. Incidently, can anyone identify the crew members shown in "flight gear" under the photo of the Jerry Jinx ( 427th ) at the 303rd website? I have a fairly decent photo identical to the one shown. If my dad wasn't a crew member on that particular day ( very hard to tell with the heavy jackets and equipment) perhaps some one who was a member of the crew, or relative would like to have the photo. Very best to all. Lloyd. ( I will look up the 94th and stop by their site ). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 20:10:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Shane .) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:10:07 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: Hello everyone: My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much and I am very curious to learn more about his life. Shane Underwood >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > >Lloyd Grant >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, >Assigned >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 21:47:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:47:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: Message-ID: <000901c0d412$4da2f940$04914d0c@o3n4f8> Shane, welcome. My dad was in the 427th Sq. early on, but I can't help you with your question other than to suggest that you go here: http://www.303rdbga.com/ if you haven't already. There is a picture of your granddad taken in Jan. of 1944. Don't give up trying. If you have any pictures , or other memoribilia from your granddads service with the Hell Angels, they could be helpful. Good luck. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane ." To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Hello everyone: > My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of > the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, > he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a > "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other > members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 > LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John > K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active > from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I > think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town > or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because > my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If > anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much > and I am very curious to learn more about his life. > > Shane Underwood > > > >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > > > >Lloyd Grant > >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, > >Assigned > >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 00:56:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 01:16:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d42f$6d7c7bc0$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, "Flight of the Phoenix" is one of my all time favorite films. ( Gen. Stewart--Jimmy Stewart-- was one of a few Hollywood stars that actually got into the War for real. If my information is correct, he piloted a B17. I have no idea what Group he flew with). What occurred to cause the death of Mantz during the filming of this movie? I hope the question is not too far off track, for me to ask. If it is, ring me up at palidin@worldnet.att.net if you can "enlighten" me. Thanks. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ > AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough > aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They > got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz > died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the > Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa > Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. > This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 02:52:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:52:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c0d43c$d9285800$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, "Col Goebrecht". Got you mixed up with Bill Heller, for a moment. The information you forwarded is succinct, helpful, and definately appreciated. Regards. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 05:45:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:45:50 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video Message-ID: <000d01c0d455$19a00500$d7194e0c@o3n4f8> The following is reposted for those of you who are on the Molesworth Tape list. Grateful appreciation to Harry Goebrecht who took the time to research the scenes and discribe their significance. Tape #1 is on the way to Maine, Tape #2 in, or , on the way to Utah, and Tape #3 is in California. Let me know when you are ready to send it on. Lloyd Grant, palidin@worldnet.att.net. Best wishes to all. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video > The video sequence is as follows: > 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan > The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and > flew > to Kellogg, Field > 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS > 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. > It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained > their new > B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had > the nose > painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: > 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 > Oct. > They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick > Scotland > arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. > 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) > 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth > 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground > 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off > 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight > 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) > 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) > 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) > 29:12 End of tape > > B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) > At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI > Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew > Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew > Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew > Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew > Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew > Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew > Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew > The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew > One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew > The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes > Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. > Crew > Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- > (91st BG B-17) > Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew > Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew > The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew > (aka Yahoodi) > Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew > > Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron > except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet > been > named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. > 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video > ----------------------------------------------------------- > At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew > ----- 41-24535?? ? -R > Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 08:51:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I had about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he was knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our destination. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:33:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:33:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:47:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:36:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:36:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I think that was Jimmy Stewart's best role, even better than It's a Wonderful Life. Being a combat vet of the Eighth, he played the part of a veteran flier in the way only a veteran flier could. He was magnificent, especially the scene where he and the German are aguing over the use of the Kaufman starter. If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets a thumbs up from me. Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT > >After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman >(TALLMANTZ >AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough >aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. >They >got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz >died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the >Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in >Santa >Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. >This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:46:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:46:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: There is a memorial at Polebrook to Jimmy Stewart which was the 351st BG, but I don't think that was his outfit. I think his outfit went to another base before the 351st arrived. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT > >Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I >don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at >Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up >and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I >had >about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at >first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he >was >knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for >which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our >destination. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:54:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:54:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d499$51109560$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, if my information on Jim Stewart is lacking veracity, guess where it came from. Yup, the History Channel. Anyone here know a source where I can get my facts straight? I also heard that after the War ( The War we won, WHC) Col.James Stewart flew B47s in the New Blue Air Force. I need to do some reading up on Mantz too. Thanks for your reply, Mr. Rencher. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. and Paul Mantz picked me up > and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:58:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:58:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <000f01c0d499$ed6cf700$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks to you also, Bill. You can bet on this; by the end of the day I will know alot more about James Stewarts military service than I thought I did last night. Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:04:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:04:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0d49a$d0867a20$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Grief ! You mean that thing actually FLEW? One more question, and I'll let go. What kind of engine needed a cartridge to turn it over? Was it standard back up for dead batteries? Thanks for the reply , Bob Hand. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the > makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a > flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:11:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:11:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <001d01c0d49b$af154500$69184e0c@o3n4f8> I Know I'm walking on thim ice with this topic, but I am of the same opinion. ( now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....) > Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I the use of the Kaufman > starter. > > If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets > a thumbs up from me. > Kevin > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 16:54:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:54:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <3AF2D0BB.D984E42B@attglobal.net> Jimmy Stewart was a PILOT. Alos was a GROUP Commander. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:28:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:28:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <000f01c0d4a6$86c08f00$d9b34d0c@o3n4f8> I will pass this along for anyone ele who may be interested. http://www.jimmy.org/memories/content/demandingrole.html Best, Lloyd. ( and thanks to all who replied). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 17:57:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:57:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jimmy Stewart Message-ID: <6f.14bb8c67.28243976@aol.com> --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander. He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H) 23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer 453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd Combat Wing. He flew 20 B-24 combat missions. Prior to going overseas he completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a B/General. Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander.
He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H)
23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer
453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was
Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd
Combat Wing.  He flew 20 B-24 combat missions.  Prior to going overseas he  
completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew
B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a
B/General.
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 19:08:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:08:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] waste Message-ID: <22.1575f8dc.28244a0d@aol.com> Came home on the Queen Elizabeth in the middle of a HOT June.As enlisted men we carried our barracks bags which contained all our stuff plus a heavy winter overcoat,blanket and helmet liner.As we slowly pulled into New York harbor,lined with "Welcome Home!" and "Job well done!" signs and tugs and fireboats tooting and spraying water,as far astern as one could see was a floating olive drab trail of G.I. overcoats,blankets and helmet liners. Memories, Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:39:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:39:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7b.1433b26c.282497a5@aol.com> Gonna have to rent Phoenix again...too fuzzy on my recollection. Hope all is well....have a wunnerful weekend! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:47:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:47:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <6d.136fc0ed.28249975@aol.com> Got me on that cartridge back up question....sorry! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 02:29:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:29:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition came from? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:13:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:13:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. After the War, what did you do? (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are different .) This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c0d4f8$be4450e0$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> ... Or maybe, "Fire off the engine !" ? Cheers, Jack Rencher. := ) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first > line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other > services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had > no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and > pass the ammunition came from? > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:51:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:51:37 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years in community relations with a local bank. It has been a fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:29:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:29:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002101c0d50b$39750220$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years > with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the > next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing > and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years > in community relations with a local bank. It has been a > fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:41:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:41:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <49.aed16ff.2824de7c@aol.com> thanks. lloyd. very interesting. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:47:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:47:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 04:22:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:22:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c0d512$b061c920$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Spec, I didn't mean that Gary gave me the go ahead on this question. I just discussed asking it with him. I don't work for the CIA, and I am not writing a book. It is just a question. If it is offensive, PLEASE, ignore it. Hit the delete button. I thought the question was relevant, and I promise, I gave it serious thought before offering it. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual > lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:46:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:46:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was the only time I had to live. I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller and Grisham and Starr and Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't expect you to agree. I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate get a good one like Hal Suspend. Aren't you sorry you asked? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:15:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:15:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c0d522$5efe43a0$f1904d0c@o3n4f8> Not in the least bit, Mr. Rencher. Not in the least bit. I am glad that I asked, now. Your reply, and the one given by Mr. Runnels imply that there is hope beyond any other "mitigating" circumstances. I am thankful, as are many others. I hope that this makes some difference to you , and Harry Goebrecht, Bill Heller, Hal Susskind, Dick Smith, Ed Lamme, Ed Miller, Dick Johnson, and Gary Moncur, and all the rest of you "Toms, Dicks, and Harrys too numerous to name.... Thanks for the comments, Jack. Lloyd. Ps. my guess would be that you know of Robert Service, and Rudyard Kippling; a couple of other friends I am glad to know. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Friend Lloyd, > I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were > not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the > greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this > planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my > own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad > or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. > > I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change > it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try > to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. > Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and > uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I > had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the > future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was > the only time I had to live. > > I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over > 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I > went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller > and Grisham and Starr and > Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not > have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and > this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could > and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to > enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I > pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't > expect you to agree. > I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not > born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning > they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and > never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but > not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of > your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate > get a good one like Hal Suspend. > Aren't you sorry you asked? > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 09:21:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 01:21:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. Cheers! (now you know) Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > After the War, what did you do? > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > different .) > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 12:09:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:09:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> Regards, Bill. I am proud to know you. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd Grant ... > > After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated > five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new > Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, > Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA > pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the > ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became > fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. > It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, > I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with > them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to > retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good > ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I > also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. > > Cheers! (now you know) > > Bill Heller > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > > > After the War, what did you do? > > > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > > different .) > > > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > > the privilege). > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 14:16:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: <00f901c0d565$a4fe0d20$ca1b4e0c@o3n4f8> I apologize for having to ask this, but would those of you who have not seen the Molesworth tape, and anyone who might like to see it, please check in. My notes with everyones addresses and e-mails have been rendered nearly illegible. Thanks. Lloyd. ( palidin@worldnet.att.net ). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:33:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:33:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: Iloyd, I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - Clyde Hennong From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:40:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:40:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:48:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:48:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Hi all- A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy Stewart. Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff and promoted to full colonel. The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. For more info on the 453rd, go to: http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:58:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 08:58:54 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Grant, After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:54:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:54:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. 'Nuff said. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 23:40:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:40:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Lloyd Message-ID: <3c.b41aeb8.2825db6e@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I really enjoyed reading the answers to your question, What did I do after the War? Those great persons and their very interesting answers made it joy to read my e-mail. I hope many more answer your great question. Thank you for asking. P.S. I did not spell Hal Susskind's name wrong. My smart computer corrected it and I did not notice it until after it was sent. Sorry Hal. Best wishes Gang, Send Lloyd your answer and include us all. Thank you. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:40:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:40:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war References: Message-ID: <001f01c0d5a3$b3574380$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for the response, Bill. Congratulations on your up-coming great grandfatherhood. Best wishes to you and your family. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war > Hi Lloyd, > As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb > answers. > After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of > it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a > half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in > SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with > the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the > MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I > earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, > after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the > Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have > enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too > much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. > I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do > that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and > will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. > 'Nuff said. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:46:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:46:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Message-ID: <002701c0d5a4$74ba67a0$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for the lead , Mike. I will definately check it out. Walter Matthau ? I didn't know that. See what happens when you start asking questions :=) ). Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike McClanahan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart > Hi all- > > A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy > Stewart. > Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from > March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff > and promoted to full colonel. > The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. > S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. > For more info on the 453rd, go to: > http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html > > Mike McClanahan > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:50:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:50:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: Message-ID: <003501c0d5a4$f66f0e40$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Glad to oblige, Clyde. Please send your address and e-mail to me at : palidin@worldnet.att.net ( to assure your privacy). Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > Iloyd, > I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - > Clyde Hennong > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:57:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8><3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <004301c0d5a6$07d59860$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Jim, I is reassuring to see so much good come out in the aftermath of this horrendous War. My very best wishes to you and your bride. Thanks for your response. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Grant, > > After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. > > This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. > > After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. > > I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 22:17:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Texas Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <005a01c0d5a8$dad22100$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Maher, Jr. If you are monitoring the forum please get in touch. We seem to have a bit of trouble locating the Molesworth tape and I have lost your contact address. Would like to know if you still have the tape, or sent it on, and if so to whom. Thanks . Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:28:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Message-ID: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape and my address is; James L Phillips 1906 Dorchester ave' Kalamazoo; Michigan 49001-5217 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:36:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:36:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001801c0d5bc$322c35e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Got you, James. Thanks. ( one of my critters spilled a cup of coffee on my notes). Bill Jones is sending the tape to Edward Frank in Reading , PA. so it should be in your neighborhood ere long. I will let you know when Ed is ready to send it along. best regards, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES PHILLIPS" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape > and my address is; James L Phillips > 1906 Dorchester ave' > Kalamazoo; Michigan > 49001-5217 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:50:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:50:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c0d5be$366ba260$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved the tape. I remember our conversation about where to send the tape next. Can you help me out with some info? I remember that it took a long time for Bill Owen to get the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you folks having any trouble with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my notes rendering them almost illegible). ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Patrick Maher" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Please add me to the route! > William Patrick Maher Jr. > 1802 Tulane Drive > Richardson, TX 75081 > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > crew.) > > Regards. > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > this > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > and Donald Kehne > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > his sake , I am truly > > > happy to see the response. > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > quality, but the content. > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > lots of great shots > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > will go to Bill > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > pass it around and > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > again, Don, thanks > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 01:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:24:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians Message-ID: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours truly.) Cheers to all, and thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 04:56:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:56:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, or if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours > truly.) > Cheers to all, and thank you. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:19:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:19:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <003201c0d5ca$a60aa740$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Yup, Margaret Eileen Lamport. Cambridge, Eng. After the War my dad sent for her. He was stationed in the Phillipines (1946). I was hatched in November of the following year. Take a rough cut East Texan from Corpus Christi, combine with a refined young English woman; bake for approximately nine months and what do you get? One very confused Phillipino with blond hair and blue eyes. (and an "attitude"). Cheers, Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Hi Lloyd, > I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, or > if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? > Gordy. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. My > > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! > Yours > > truly.) > > Cheers to all, and thank you. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 05:55:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:55:19 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet In-Reply-To: <001901c0d4f8$be4450e0$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> References: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010505185519.0092f780@ilhawaii.net> Jack Rencher, Do you remember my pilot, C. J. Goodberlet? We were flying In the 358th bs from November 26, 1944 to March 20, 1945. He was a fine pilot and a fine man, and was in the same barracks as Harry Gobrecht? Jim Walling >had >> no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord >and >> pass the ammunition came from? >> Jack Rencher >> >> > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 08:51:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:51:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the war Message-ID: <43.14af300b.28265c68@aol.com> I entered service with 2 years of undergraduate credits.After discharge,thanks to S.1767,the G.I. bill, I finished my last 2 years and entered dental school,graduating in 1951.I enjoyed 35 wonderful years of practice.Nearly 8 million vets took advantage of the G.I. bill.We were in colleges and vocational training most of us could have only dreamed of during the depression.Ten times more non-vets flunked out than did veterans and our Federal income taxes repaid the initial expenditure many times over. Memories,Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 14:07:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:07:01 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians Message-ID: <20010506130702.EIMH4752.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, your invitation for comments about the things we remember about Molesworth when not flying stimulated my thought process. I remember the so called fresh eggs ( the yolk was white also from storage ) on mission days, slipping into the shower building on other than scheduled days, raiding the mess hall to have food in the barracks for snacks, softball games, shooting skeet ( I was on the skeet range with a former national champion when informed of the loss of my original crew in a mid-air collision ), playing in the base marching band and barracks senority. In three months I moved from the bottom to the top claiming the bed near the stove, under the light bulb and no longer having to censor mail. What a deal. ha I also remember going to the flight line to count the number of returning aircraft and watch them land. These are but a few of my memories. Thanks for asking.....Bill Runnels, bombardier, 360th sqd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 15:29:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 07:29:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> <003201c0d5ca$a60aa740$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <004601c0d638$ff4b2000$2809f4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks, Lloyd. Real interesting upbringing, I bet. When did you come back to the States, or did you stay overseas for a while? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Yup, Margaret Eileen Lamport. Cambridge, Eng. After the War my dad sent > for her. He was stationed in the Phillipines (1946). I was hatched in > November of the following year. Take a rough cut East Texan from Corpus > Christi, combine with a refined young English woman; bake for approximately > nine months and what do you get? One very confused Phillipino with blond > hair and blue eyes. (and an "attitude"). Cheers, Gordy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:56 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > Hi Lloyd, > > I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, > or > > if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? > > Gordy. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > > > > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > > > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > > > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > > > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. > My > > > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! > > Yours > > > truly.) > > > Cheers to all, and thank you. > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 13:32:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 08:32:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <20010506130702.EIMH4752.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <006801c0d628$985de4a0$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Mr. Runnells. Your comments are well recieved and welcomed. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Lloyd, your invitation for comments about the things we > remember about Molesworth when not flying stimulated my > thought process. I remember the so called fresh eggs ( > the yolk was white also from storage ) on mission days, > slipping into the shower building on other than > scheduled days, raiding the mess hall to have food in > the barracks for snacks, softball games, shooting skeet > ( I was on the skeet range with a former national > champion when informed of the loss of my original crew > in a mid-air collision ), playing in the base marching > band and barracks senority. In three months I moved from > the bottom to the top claiming the bed near the stove, > under the light bulb and no longer having to censor > mail. What a deal. ha I also remember going to the > flight line to count the number of returning aircraft > and watch them land. These are but a few of my memories. > > Thanks for asking.....Bill Runnels, bombardier, 360th > sqd. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 15:08:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:08:52 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <00ae01c0d636$15c0aa60$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: "Bill Jones" Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Mr. Jones, my question and comments were specifically aimed toward the > Veterans in this group, however , I should add that I am also exeptionally > grateful for the numerous times that some of my contemporaries have been of > great value and assistance. I am also indebted to some guys named Bill > Jones, Donald Kehne, Kevin Pearson, and Bill Owen ; and some gals too, like > Moofy, and Anne Grant ( to name just a few). The word "Thanks" gets bandied > around a lot; it goes deeper than that, none-the-less, thank you all. It > is my privilege to be a member of this outstanding group. ( and Bill, as > you say, who cares what it is called, what it is makes the difference) . > Regards, > Lloyd. I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think that is the "accepted " term ) > > Ok, now I feel bad. It doesn't matter what you call the group. In > > fact, Gary calls it a "Forum" , so as you say, that's probably best. ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 22:18:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <000001c0d672$0a0cca00$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> To all you dear men, Ed Miller was kind enough to email me recently, curious about my relationship to the 303rd web site. He posted my answer on the comments page, but I am forwarding an emended version to you fellows in the chat group as another side to the "after the war" picture. My big brother, 2nd Lt. Howard George Weinberg, a bombardier, was lost on his first mission, to Leipzig on April 6, 1945. There was a horrific mid-air collision on the way to the target, and both B-17s went down, both crews were killed. Howie was 23 years old. In one month the war in Europe would be over. I was nearly 11 at the time of his death, the baby of the family. My next brother was 7 years older than I, my sister 10 years older, and Howie 12. Of all of them, it was Howie I adored. And no wonder. Howie was sweet, funny, handsome, slender, 6'5-1/2" tall, athletic, popular, sentimental, a charmer with the girls, the ideal son, the perfect brother. When he was home, our house was barely big enough to hold him. There was always noise, the radio turned up loud, music playing, his big friends dropping by. When I had to be dragged off to bed at night, the house would still be ringing with jollity, my lullaby. We were blessed with parents who not only loved each other and were each other's best friends, but who loved us and were our best friends as well. They were happy, we were happy. It was truly a magical household. I thought all families were like that. Before we were prepared for it, war came to our house. Howie left Columbia University to join up. He wrote, "Dad, I enlisted today. I want to finish the job you started in 1917." Imagine. My sister accelerated at college, even spending her summers there, to finish in three years; my other brother was sent to a naval prep school (Dad arranged that, hoping he would go from there to Annapolis, which would draw out the time before he might have to serve overseas). I was alone. No more lullabies. For the next couple of years, we lived in a sort of limbo, waiting for the war to come to its climax. As young as I was, I knew as well as anybody what might happen to Howie. And then the telegram arrived bringing the terrible news. Our family never recovered from losing Howie. I can't imagine how my parents dealt with it; they never talked about Howie's death in my presence. My sister escaped her grief by getting married and moving as far away as she could from home. My remaining brother completely dissociated himself from the family; I don't even know where he lives today. Mother remarked to me once that he was as much a victim of the war as Howie. I imagine now she meant he was struggling with a penetrating guilt that Howie was the one taken, not he. A few years ago, after my own children were educated and out of the house, my husband and I bought my family's old summer property. In restoring it, I began remembering things that I had not thought about in years, events that bound me emotionally to the place. I wrote down these remembrances, and I published them in a national magazine. Strangely, there was a huge hole in the text, the part about having had two brothers and a sister. I began to realize that Howie's death actually had shattered our family. I decided that would be my next big writing project, but having been so much the youngest, and not having been allowed in on anyone's grief, I simply did not understand enough. Both Mom and Dad had died. My remaining brother had disappeared. And my sister had nailed shut the door to her past. So I turned to Howie. I got ahold of his old letters, and in transcribing them into my computer I was able to witness his transformation from a carefree young collegian into a serious soldier. With the help of my U.S. Senator, I collected packets of material from various military archival sources. I learned exactly how Howie died, that he was buried and dug up twice near where the two B-17s went down, and that he was interred with honor in Liege, Belgium at the military cemetery there. [My young husband and I visited Liege in 1955. When we were conducted to Howie's grave and left alone there to ponder, I cried -- not only for missing Howie, but because no one in our family had witnessed the ceremony that had laid him to rest.] Down deep inside me, Howie is still living. I carry a vision of a party somewhere, and Howie holding me high up in his arms and dancing around the room. And one of his tossing pebbles at my window one dark night; he was on surprise leave, and I was to tiptoe down and let him in. And another when he apologized to me, the only one in my family, except my father, to ever do so. Was it all a dream? I have two sons who are intensely interested in my quest for Howie. One of them discovered the 303rd web site. I believe the day will come when someone will post a picture of Howie's fated crew. I wonder, will Howie appear serious, or will he be giving that sly smile of his that always meant he was up to something I hope someone in the 427th remembers Howie, though he was in England only a few days before his fated mission. Howie was sweet, funny, handsome, slender, 6'5-1/2" tall, athletic, popular, sentimental, a charmer with the girls, the ideal son, the perfect brother. And he was only 23 years old when he died. I sign this, Howie's little sister, Lois Brown From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 22:58:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 16:58:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. Message-ID: <000f01c0d677$d143aee0$31bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people Year at Hastings college - 40-41--- Omaha Welding School - December 1941 - Mar. 42---April 17 at age 21 enlisted.- Sept 27, 1945 discharged - worked in my dad's garage and filling station.---Married June 16, '46 ---Sept '46 entered University of Nebr. Entered Spanish II class room . The first thing the instructor said was " You Ex- GIs have no place in an intitution of higher learning.." -- after 6 weeks in Spanish III informed I had flunked Spanish II - ask the Spanish III instructor what my average was --85----Disturbing information.. Dropped out in March of 1949 Found out my advisor put me in the wrong college[ should have been in Ag. college.] for a career as a Conservation officer. Returned home to work On The Job Training in the garage and Standard Oil filling station [complete overhaul, reboring and small engine repair & a lot of irrigation engines] Dad's mechanic [my uncle] and I took over the business [He started in 1915 - my uncle started in 1919] in Sept. 1951 -- Nov. 1970 Partner wanted to retire. Not liking the offer he made I said I am done too. Had $285 on the books we couldn't collect.---April , 1971 - went to work hopping diesel pumps at I-80 truck stop. June, '71 Parts man in Chrysler-Plymouth agency. in Grand Island .- June 73 Parts manager - June 74 let go for financial reasons. Released on Mon--- . 1 PM tues afternoon started to work for Chevrolet -Cadillac agency as parts clerk. Retired from this in Jan 1986. ---June '86 - 90 worked full time in the summer for the Stuhr Museum of the prairie Pioneer in Grand Island as interpreter on the Pawnee earth Lodge on the museum grounds. I was Costumed as a Sioux Warrior or a Mt Man. 1989 and 1990 my wife and I held a mountain man class for 5 & 6th graders on the museum grouinds. She had retired in 1989 after 33 years of teaching. 24 as 6th grade teacher in Grand Island system the rest in rural schools.---1999 back to work at the I-8o truck stop [exit 307] this time carving meat on Sundays for the buffet. --Didn't gain much on that.--Still there. Time to wake you all. - exit stage left. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St. Wood River, NE -68883-9164 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 23:45:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:45:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <004d01c0d67e$4d14b540$1ef833cf@richards> Hi Lloyd: After returning in May 1945 with 60 combat missions 35 B17, 25 P51. I asked my father if I could go and ask my Future wife for her Hand . Dad said no that I was not 21 yet and He would not give his permission he Said " Listen son marriage is something that you will only regret once and that's the rest of your life. So I waited till June 3 when I turned 21 and went and asked Betty to marry me She said yes and we were married on June !6 1945. We stayed in the Air force for 10 years I went back to Regular Master Sergeant in 47 and was recalled as a pilot in 48 for the Berlin Airlift , I ran the Engine change hangar at Fossberg Germany . When one of our two sons passed away in 1948 I returned to the States and was reassigned to Griffis AFB in Rome N.Y. I stayed at Griffis for 5 years and was grounded in 1949 so they could save my flying pay When Korea war started I went to Inspector Generals School at Maxwell Field. I was ordered to Luke Field for P51 training in early 1952 when they came out with a letter stating that if I went to Korea I could not be promoted as I was serving in a grade lower than my Reserve grade of Captain. The excuse they gave was that they had recalled to many Reserve and National Guard officers in their full grade and they were overstocked . I asked for discharge under this letter as I was completely dissatisfied with the way they were running the service. I returned to Eastman Kodak where I had worked before joining up in 1942. I went to Engineering school at Rochester Institute of Technology and got my degree. I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer at Kodak un- till 1982 when I retired to accept a position With Fender Guitars in California , when CBS sold Fender I went to work for Northrop Aircraft on the B2 Bomber. I had 9 patents at Kodak one at Fender and two at Northrop. My wife and I raised 6 sons and two have passes away but the others are all successful .One is Vice President of Fender Guitars . One teaches School in Prescott As. one is Executive VP of an Engineering Co in Mass. and the other tends Bar in Rochester NO.N.Y.. the best job of all. WE are retired in Hemet Ca. where I build and fly Radio Control airplanes and am Secretary and Newsletter Editor of The Hemet Model Masters web page < www.ivic.net?~spider> Enough said Dick "Spider " Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > After the War, what did you do? > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > different .) > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > the privilege). > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 20:27:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:27:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. References: <000f01c0d677$d143aee0$31bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000001c0d68a$d15ae5c0$b58f4d0c@o3n4f8> Well, Mtn Man, we can't all be rich and famous, but you are brothers from the bond of shared experience, and what you did after the war is more meaningful to the picture than you might believe. Thank you, Maurice. notice, I didn't post my story. But, then , I wasn't on the set until Nov. of '47. I was fired the first day for being late for "cast call". Cheers, friend. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 01:41:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 20:41:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <004d01c0d67e$4d14b540$1ef833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002001c0d68e$86edb7c0$b58f4d0c@o3n4f8> Enough can never be said Spider. I will bet you were not the only one to get "spiraled" out of grade by the "New Blue". As it seems, everything works out for the best. Should I tell the guys what you are flying these days, " Ameliclan pryrot" ? ( I checked out your sight and was amazed. When I signed out it was with a lot of respect. Thank you for contributing, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Hi Lloyd: > After returning in May 1945 with 60 combat missions 35 B17, 25 P51. I asked > my father if I could go and ask my Future wife for her Hand . Dad said no > > WE are retired in Hemet Ca. where I build and fly Radio Control airplanes > and am Secretary and Newsletter Editor of The Hemet Model Masters web page < > www.ivic.net?~spider> > Enough said > Dick "Spider " Smith > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 04:59:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:59:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: <69.14dcbfc7.282777a1@aol.com> Jim, yes I remember him in name only. Like Harry Gobrecht who has become a very dear friend after the war I knew him only by the way he held his position in formation during the war. We did not visit each other huts very much so we only really knew the people in our crew, in our hut. or were in training with us. Maybe some of those who went to the club a lot had other friends, but I was a loner. I'm sorry Jim I flew as check pilot with lots of new crews on their first mission and I don't remember any of them except one who was such a bad formation pilot I couldn't believe it and I flew the whole mission. I won't mention any name. I flew my last mission with the 303rd on 24 Dec. 1944 so I was there about a month while Gooberlet was there. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 07:49:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:49:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> <001001c0d522$5efe43a0$f1904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00c701c0d6c1$de14a120$c209f4cc@e0y0k4> I agree with Lloyd, and us forty or fifty year old "young farts" find all of this very pertinent. You guys might think we aren't interested in the rest of your life, but I sure am. We get to know each other here, and it makes thing a little more personal, and more familiar, the better we do know each other. Thanks for taking the time to write, Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Not in the least bit, Mr. Rencher. Not in the least bit. I am glad that I > asked, now. Your reply, and the one given by Mr. Runnels imply that there > is hope beyond any other "mitigating" circumstances. I am thankful, as are > many others. I hope that this makes some difference to you , and Harry > Goebrecht, Bill Heller, Hal Susskind, Dick Smith, Ed Lamme, Ed Miller, > Dick Johnson, and Gary Moncur, and all the rest of you "Toms, Dicks, and > Harrys too numerous to name.... Thanks for the comments, Jack. > Lloyd. > > Ps. my guess would be that you know of Robert Service, and Rudyard > Kippling; a couple of other friends I am glad to know. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:46 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > > Friend Lloyd, > > I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many > were > > not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the > > greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this > > planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my > > own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or > sad > > or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. > > > > I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or > change > > it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or > try > > to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. > > Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and > > uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. > I > > had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As > the > > future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past > was > > the only time I had to live. > > > > I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for > over > > 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I > > went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and > Miller > > and Grisham and Starr and > > Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do > not > > have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and > > this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could > > and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones > to > > enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can > I > > pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I > don't > > expect you to agree. > > I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are > not > > born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this > morning > > they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been > and > > never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair > but > > not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain > of > > your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't > navigate > > get a good one like Hal Suspend. > > Aren't you sorry you asked? > > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 08:48:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 03:48:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 13:02:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:02:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? Although I suspect the above interesting questions were retorical, the next time you see a fly on the ceiling, put a little dish washing soap in a glass and pour in HOT water so it foams up. Then take that glass and slowly raise it underneath the fly. About 90% of the time the fly will try to take off, but instead do a dive straight down into the soap. I'm not sure if he does the half roll or not, but it is very fast, and I'm guessing that it starts out flying upside down (rather than just dropping like a parachute until his feet are down), and gets dis-oriented by the white foam, and thinks he is going up when he is really going down. Ie it is not that they drop into the glass, but they accelerate into it. Really neat to see, but it is way to fast to see what kind of manuever he is doing. Anyway, even flies have a hard time flying in pea soup. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 13:37:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:37:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: Delayed returning to art school in favor of working with an incredible duo of artists. In so doing, established myself in art community and had only two jobs in 40 or so years. Got to do some good stuff (Black Velvet Campaign) and never regretted a day. Semi - retired in Fla., still working at design and illustration. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:12:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 03:12:09 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet In-Reply-To: <69.14dcbfc7.282777a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010507031209.009838b0@ilhawaii.net> To Jack Rencher, I am intrigued but not surprised by your answer about Clarence Goodberlet. With one exception, we did everything as a crew, even our trips to London, Nottingham and Ediinburgh, and had little association with other crews. The one exception was our copilot, who I learned 50 years later was courting a pretty young English girl that he married in June of 1945. I remember almost no one else except as a name or a job, like the friendly corporal(?) who woke us up for missions and drove the jeep that carried us and our guns to the plane. I don't even remember the crew or crews that shared our hut. I, too, was a loner. If there was an enlisted men's club I don't remember it. I would like desperately to remember the name of the crew chief of Bouncing Betty III and the other ground crewmen, who took such good care of us and were so understanding. He didn't even complain when I brought the ball turret back from our first mission smelling of piss, because it didn't have a relief tube and couldn't leave the turret with enemy aircraft around. He just explained that I should carry a fuse can, which I did on future missions. For some reason I could remember Harry Gobrecht, but I can't remember his crew. Not even Tom Mays, who came from my part of the country. I seem to remember Lt. Goering, who seemed to be such a spit and polish officer that we would not dare pass him without saluting. I do remember my cousin, Glen Walling, who was waiting in my barracks when I returned from the mission on February 21, 1944. He was from California, and I had not seen him since he was about 12 yeas old. I learned he was in our group and seen my name at the Red Cross club. I have regretted many times that I did not get over to see him before I finished my missions a month later. As some of you know, he was KIA on the last mission of the war. Thank you for your reply about Lt. Goodberlet. Jim Walling At 11:59 PM 5/6/01 EDT, you wrote: >Jim, yes I remember him in name only. Like Harry Gobrecht who has become a >very dear friend after the war I knew him only by the way he held his >position in formation during the war. We did not visit each other huts very >much so we only really knew the people in our crew, in our hut. or were in >training with us. Maybe some of those who went to the club a lot had other >friends, but I was a loner. I'm sorry Jim I flew as check pilot with lots of >new crews on their first mission and I don't remember any of them except one >who was such a bad formation pilot I couldn't believe it and I flew the whole >mission. I won't mention any name. I flew my last mission with the 303rd on >24 Dec. 1944 so I was there about a month while Gooberlet was there. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:37:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape In-Reply-To: <002901c0d5be$366ba260$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <20010507133756.81436.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Due to delays on THIS end, I just mailed the tape on Saturday. Sorry! (Delays: making copies of the tape, etc). --- Lloyd J Grant wrote: > William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved > the tape. I remember > our conversation about where to send the tape next. > Can you help me out > with some info? I remember that it took a long time > for Bill Owen to get > the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you > folks having any trouble > with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd > ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my > notes rendering them > almost illegible). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Patrick Maher" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > Please add me to the route! > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If > the > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete > Clark's > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the > Monahan > > crew.) > > > > Regards. > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not > intend > > > this > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth > sharing, > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. > For > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not > the > > > quality, but the content. > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > lots of great shots > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. > Mine > > > will go to Bill > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it > goes..... > > > pass it around and > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > again, Don, thanks > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:38:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, "PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In looking through the records it seems to have been used as a "scouter" plane in early 1945. Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying bombs. Is this correct? Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to stay out at the target for a long time? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 15:31:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:31:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E09C@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> May 7th marks the day that Nazi Germany capitulated. You men of the 303rd Bomb Group were instrumental in bringing the war in the ETO to a end. I know that you know this all ready but we the younger generation of Americans want to tell you again.. "Thank you, Job well done"! No doubt it was a team effort by all branches of the US Military. In 1942 it was very questionable what the outcome of the war in Europe was going to be. Because of your devotion and sacrifice I can write these words today. Take a moment to remember those who paid the ultimate price on May 28th. God Bless you all. Greg Pierce, President, 8th AFHS - WA From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 16:26:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:26:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <65.13f4cedc.282818c0@aol.com> My idea of the stripped down plane was to bo in ahead of the main formation to drop chaff to mess up the ground gunners aim at us - anybody else have any input on that????? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 19:40:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:40:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have guys like you who did what had to be done. >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying >bombs. Is this correct? > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 19:48:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:48:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AF6EDF9.E36D825E@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Your query anent whether a fly (or a Dove) which goes "aloft" during flight has no effect on the aircraft's gross weight at the time ... reminds me of a story. It was told by Ernie Gann many years ago. He said, "We were flying a load of caged birds out of Agra in India and when we lost an engine on takeofdf, I suddenly realized we could not clear the Taj Mahal. At this moment my loadmaster fired a blank pistol making all the birds instantly give wing ... and I believe it was this loss of weight which allowed us to clear the Taj Mahal!" I once took Ernie on a flight from Wake Island to Manila when he was going over their to research one of his books. He looked me in the eye and said, "That's a true story, Bill., I swear!" And then he winked. By the way, I never flew a DC9 and if I did, I would not fly it over the Pacific. I flew DC8s, DC10s and 747s ... And in the very old days did fly DC4s and DC6s over the Pacific. Pursuant to the ab ove I often wondered if you were sitting on a train going fifty miles and hour, and your suit case immnediately over you in the baggage rack, fell down, would it, due to the speed, actually6 fall a wee bit down the aisle, thus sparing you a bump on the head ... ? It is to ponder, eh? Keep up the good work, Jack. I find your comments very enlightening. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 21:43:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:43:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America References: Message-ID: <3AF7090C.2E466FA7@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Yes, and when we came back to a 20-man barracks with 16 empty beds, we were given a shot of whisky and told to get some rest because "we may go out again tomorrow" ... NO counselors or people to hold our hands as happens today when two or more get killed and the entire city ties yellow ribbons on the trees and have public pray-ins. It is to ponder. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a > Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally > distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost > of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think > of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have > guys like you who did what had to be done. > > >From: "Bill Jones" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, > >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped > >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In > >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a > >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped > >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been > >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just > >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression > >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I > >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to > >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying > >bombs. Is this correct? > > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that > >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the > >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes > >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he > >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, > >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or > >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had > >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to > >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 22:51:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:51:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: <57.15a8d301.282872fc@aol.com> absolutely correct. how come now? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 22:56:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:56:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Message-ID: <34.14954570.282873f7@aol.com> thanks, greg From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 23:39:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:39:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <50.15655703.28287e2b@aol.com> bravo!! i knew you were of the "RIGHT STUFF" cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:11:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:11:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: In reading through mission information, I ran into a few missions that confused me, which isn't hard. It was situations such as where the primary target might be a certain target using GH equipment, and the secondary target might be a nearby target using PFF equipment, and the lead plane had only GH equipment and the deputy lead plane had only PFF equipment (or visa versa). The question is, if the conditions required use of the equipment which was on the deputy lead aircraft, would the lead and deputy lead planes exchange positions in the formation? If so, how was this done, ie would the lead radio back and tell the other planes to back off while the exchange was in progress? If not, I don't understand how the wing plane can lead the squadron on the bombing run. If the exchange IS made, I am still confused as to how the other planes are notified, because I have one data sheet indicating that the deputy lead planes were monitoring a different frequency than the lead plane and the other planes in the squadron. I assume this means that the lead plane would have to switch channels to talk to the deputy, then switch back to tell the other planes to back off, then switch back to talk to the deputy again???? Or was this process simpler than I am imagining, ie flares or something??? Or did this situation just never happen, and they only bombed off the deputy when the lead plane was damaged and dropped out of formation? Ie I didn't actually find examples of when they bombed by the equipment on the deputy plane, but did find examples where it would have been a possibility, so I assume that it must have happened. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:45:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:45:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <001301c0d74f$ec55ad40$2a8ee0d8@h4k3401> Greetings to all who may be interested, - - - - Reading the latest round of post-war experiences has inspired me to tell my own. Having been born in 1937, I was a child when the war was being fought and I can remember wondering why we were mad at the Germans. Maybe they had green blood or something. The Japanese, on the other hand, were obviously different but I really didn't care much because the war wasn't much of a concern for a five year old. Skipping ahead to about 1983, my wife Tawny, my brother Richard, his wife Holley, and I, were talking about Tawny's father who had been shot down and killed while on a bombing mission during the war. Her mother flat refused to tell her anything at all about her father except that his name was Ralph Quint and he was in the 303rd. Bomb Group flying B-17s and that his plane went down on June 29, 1944. About that time I had seen a book on the paintings of Keith Ferris and how he had researched the circumstances of each of his paintings, including the mural in the Smithsonian. It seemed possible that perhaps he had run across something that would help us in finding out what we wanted to know about Tawny's father so I wrote a letter to Mr. Ferris. He put us in touch with the 303rd. B.G.A. and we were then able to to get in touch with Leslie Black who was the ball gunner and the sole survivor. Numerous telephone conversations and letters followed and we were able to put together quite a lot of information. The best came in 1985 when we attended the group reunion in Seattle. We met many fine folks, including Dick Johnson and his lovely wife Marjorie. He had kept a mission diary (written on bomb-tags) wherein he described the shooting down of "My Yorkshire Dream". This letter is getting too long so I'll close by saying that our experience in Seattle in 1985 was one of the most magical things that ever happened to us. My very best regards to all of you, sincerely, David Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:01:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:01:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember it was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would send a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment I think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did have planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was called a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were ex bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one of them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that dropped it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:11:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:11:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: Friend and roll model Bill The suitcase in the over head would have a forward component of 50 mph the same as the train. Hence as it fell down it would still be moving forward at 50 mph the same as your head would be and therefore you would get conked on the head just the same as you would it the train was sitting on a siding when the suitcase fell off. Best Wishes Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:24:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:24:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: To drop chaff!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:26:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:26:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: <97.14f38ecc.28289727@aol.com> Didnt they use the scouter plans to drop chaff? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:41:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 00:41:45 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <20010508004145.XSIS3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> In 1945 each aircraft in the formation dropped chaff on the bomb run. It was dispensed by the radio operator. I don't recall of other aircraft being assigned to this duty.....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:44:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:44:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: chaff was pushed out an opening on all my flights by the radio operator from his position. they were in rectangle blocks longer than wide or deep. it would show a silver panel behind our craft's path and others with the assignment. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:51:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:51:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: <62.e7fc6a8.28289cf7@aol.com> Bill Jones, It would be no problem at all for the lead to pull out of formation and get back in a wing position if he wanted too. All he would have to do is notify the squadron on the radio of his intention and tell them the deputy lead (his right wing man) would take over. Then the deputy lead could move under the lead and as the lead pulled up the deputy lead could move up 10 feet and his squadron would have a new lead. Other than the leads left wing man no one else would need to do anything except stay in formation with a new leader. Then the ex-lead could become the right wing man, or what he wanted too. It was no trouble at all to change positions in formation. We did it all the time. If someone went down with a better position than you had you could move into his position in 5 to 10 seconds. Or fall in with another Squadron Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:54:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:54:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <3d.b51f03d.28289dd5@aol.com> dick ,what did you do with the other hours of each day? cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:57:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:57:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two B-17s on a western tour Message-ID: <3AF6F01F.20558.E665B7@localhost> The B-17s "Nine O Nine" and "Aluminum Overcast" are both on western tours and are offering flights. My brother flew on Nine O Nine yesterday from Orange County, CA. Some pics of his flight are here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/maise/b17.html They went over Long Beach and you can see the Queen Mary in one of the shots. I am going to go on Aluminum Overcast when she comes to SLC on June 23rd. The tour info is here: Nine O Nine: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ Aluminum Overcast: http://www.b17.org/ Jack Rencher - Aluminum Overcast will be in Boise on June 15-18, or come to SLC and go with me. Susan and I will pick you up and give you the royal treatment for the day. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:00:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:00:44 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: <20010508010045.DSEP3626.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Would it be necessary for the lead aircraft to make the change with the deputy? As I recall the squadron was to be notified to drop on the 1st deputy should the lead aircraft be disabled for any reason. There was no change in position required. bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:01:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:01:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: Jim Walling, Was your Copilot Malcolm Magid? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:03:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:03:57 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Malcolm Magid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010507150357.00980730@ilhawaii.net> Jack Rencher, Yes, Malcolm was our co-pilot. He and I are the only known survivors of our crew. As you probably know, Malcolm and Iris live in Atlanta, Georgia. I met them at the reunions in Colorado Springs and late at the one in san Francisco. At 09:01 PM 5/7/01 EDT, you wrote: >Jim Walling, > Was your Copilot Malcolm Magid? > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 23:39:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:39:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <001301c0d74f$ec55ad40$2a8ee0d8@h4k3401> Message-ID: <000701c0d746$943110e0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> And may I add this; that is what we are all about. Thank you, David. LGrant. ( stay aboard.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Y" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 7:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > Greetings to all who may be interested, - - - - Reading the latest > round of > post-war experiences has inspired me to tell my own. Having been born in > 1937, I was a child when the war was being fought and I can remember > wondering why we were mad at the Germans. Maybe they had green blood or > something. The Japanese, on the other hand, were obviously different but I > really didn't care much because the war wasn't much of a concern for a > five year old. Skipping ahead to about 1983, my wife Tawny, my brother > Richard, his wife Holley, and I, were talking about Tawny's father who had > been shot down and killed while on a bombing mission during the war. Her > mother flat refused to tell her anything at all about her father except that > his name was Ralph Quint and he was in the 303rd. Bomb Group flying B-17s > and that his plane went down on June 29, 1944. > About that time I had seen a book on the paintings of Keith Ferris and > how he had researched the circumstances of each of his paintings, including > the mural in the Smithsonian. It seemed possible that perhaps he had run > across something that would help us in finding out what we wanted to know > about Tawny's father so I wrote a letter to Mr. Ferris. He put us in touch > with the 303rd. B.G.A. and we were then able to to get in touch with Leslie > Black who was the ball gunner and the sole survivor. Numerous telephone > conversations and letters followed and we were able to put together quite a > lot of information. > The best came in 1985 when we attended the group reunion in Seattle. We > met many fine folks, including Dick Johnson and his lovely wife Marjorie. > He had kept a mission diary (written on bomb-tags) wherein he described the > shooting down of > "My Yorkshire Dream". > This letter is getting too long so I'll close by saying that our > experience in Seattle in 1985 was one of the most magical things that ever > happened to us. > My very best regards to all of you, sincerely, David Young > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:00:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:00:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America References: <3AF7090C.2E466FA7@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002f01c0d749$83098ec0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, my father told me about a similar experience, re: coming back to an empty hut that had been filled with friends a few hours before. And for a moment; just for a moment, he talked to me about it. I now realize what he was trying to tell me. I should have held his hand, or something. I didn't and I regret it to this day. Thanks for saying that. I hope I wasn't the only one listening. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America > Kevin Pearson ... > > Yes, and when we came back to a 20-man barracks with 16 empty beds, we were > given a shot of whisky and told to get some rest because "we may go out again > tomorrow" ... NO counselors or people to hold our hands as happens today when > two or more get killed and the entire city ties yellow ribbons on the trees > and have public pray-ins. It is to ponder. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a > > Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally > > distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost > > of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think > > of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have > > guys like you who did what had to be done. > > > > >From: "Bill Jones" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > > >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > > > > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, > > >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped > > >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In > > >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a > > >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > > > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped > > >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been > > >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just > > >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression > > >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I > > >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to > > >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying > > >bombs. Is this correct? > > > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that > > >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the > > >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes > > >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he > > >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > > > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, > > >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or > > >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had > > >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to > > >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:03:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:03:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010507133756.81436.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c0d749$f5afd6a0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Stuff happens, everyone understands. No sweat. Thanks for checking in on it. I will let Bill Dallas know. Best, pard. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Patrick Maher" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Due to delays on THIS end, I just mailed the tape on > Saturday. Sorry! > (Delays: making copies of the tape, etc). > > --- Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved > > the tape. I remember > > our conversation about where to send the tape next. > > Can you help me out > > with some info? I remember that it took a long time > > for Bill Owen to get > > the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you > > folks having any trouble > > with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd > > ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my > > notes rendering them > > almost illegible). > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Patrick Maher" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > > > > Please add me to the route! > > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If > > the > > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete > > Clark's > > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the > > Monahan > > > crew.) > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not > > intend > > > > this > > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth > > sharing, > > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. > > For > > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not > > the > > > > quality, but the content. > > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > > lots of great shots > > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. > > Mine > > > > will go to Bill > > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it > > goes..... > > > > pass it around and > > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > > again, Don, thanks > > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:14:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, References: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E09C@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <004101c0d74b$81a88d40$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> I appreciate you posting this, because I didn't know that either. I spent all day asking young people if they knew what "Today" was. To a person they all knew the date, none of them expressed any interest in the significance. I guess it is like the Civil War, WWI, Korea , and Viet Nam, unreal in every respect, but for the Reality. " Thanks" somehow doesn't really seem to encompass it all. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pierce, Gregory S" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, > > > > May 7th marks the day that Nazi Germany capitulated. > You men of the 303rd Bomb Group were instrumental > in bringing the war in the ETO to a end. I know that you > know this all ready but we the younger generation > of Americans want to tell you again.. > > "Thank you, Job well done"! > > No doubt it was a team effort by all branches of the US Military. > In 1942 it was very questionable what the outcome of the war in > Europe was going to be. > > Because of your devotion and sacrifice I can write these words today. > > Take a moment to remember those who paid the ultimate price on May 28th. > > God Bless you all. > > Greg Pierce, > President, 8th AFHS - WA > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 04:01:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:01:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 References: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0d76b$4f889ec0$36f833cf@richards> When I was in the 1st Scouting Force Col Bud Peasley decided that we in our P51s Could carry one drop tank Full of Window or Chaf as you are calling it . They took an paper Drop tank and band sawed it in half lengthwise,then they filled it with chaff and banded it back together with metal straping that was held together by the bomb shackles.We flew out ahead of the lead group which was the most unprotected from Radar. When we got in position we dropped our tanks and the chaff would spread out from the wind. As this dropped in large clouds they figured that it was not effective. Then Col Peasley got a Mosquito bomber and we built a dispenser in the Bomb Bay which dropped the chaff in small bundles just like the radio operator did. We escorted the Col as he flew the Mosquito out ahead of the lead Group This worked great the only problem was keeping up with the Mosquito. Enough Said Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember it > was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would send > a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment I > think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did have > planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and > reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was called > a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were ex > bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one of > them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that dropped > it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. > They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there > would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:07:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:07:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: <006801c0d752$dcb03740$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> May be, one day the web meister will grant us a holiday ( perhaps one day a week) where "Hanger Talk' and jokes and other Bravo Sierra, and comradrie would be permitted for a while before we got back to the serious business of remembering the War ( the one we didn't lose, Bill). Jack, with out a doubt, Bill Heller will have a precise answer to the question you have posed. If, however, our friend is out to lunch, or , on vacation, please check out this book from your local library, " Crisis at 37'000 ft ; A Dove In Tourist Class" written by Hans Hassledorf ( Lufthansa pilot on flight 999, Boeing 747 non-stop from Rhein-Main to La Guardia, 1970.) It is a gripping tale from beginning to end , replete with acts of valor and courage unparalled in the annuls of aviation history. Available from the Two-Egg Florida Freepress, pub. Oct. 1971. ( I hope Bill Heller has read it.) Cheers. Lloyd. ;---) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 05:42:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. Message-ID: >This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people >THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. >Maurice J. Paulk Maurice - Being an auto parts guy may not appear exciting and some won't appreciate what you have done to help them on their way through their day, but apparently you have contributed much to the running of aircraft, autos, trucks, agriculture and who knows what else. You and those like you are the unseen & unsung sometimes, but you could never count all those unknown folks you have helped to keep going both in the war & peacetime, and for that I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" Best regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 05:48:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 00:48:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Message-ID: --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids." Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended, Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site < www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email to ..................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that
post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete
training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to
leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a
rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to
establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of
building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders
to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked
tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to
train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the
dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all
happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of
1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of
1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on
December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the
99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the
welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would
argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the
"cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids."
Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for
transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He
was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended,
Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he
commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning
to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he
retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he
was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing
more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site <
www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email
to <ford lauer@aol.com>..................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:09:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:09:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. References: Message-ID: <000901c0d763$e14985c0$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Well said, Rich ! Not only that, but try out one of his recipes. I am hooked. I have awesome admiration for every man that responded to this question, but the award for heroism goes to Maurice Paulk, and the men like him who don't think what they did was important. It was. I leave it up to the guys they took care of to comment further. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:42 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > >This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people > > >THE MOUNTAIN MAN > > a. k. a. > >Maurice J. Paulk > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy may not appear exciting and some won't > appreciate what you have done to help them on their way through their day, > but apparently you have contributed much to the running of aircraft, autos, > trucks, agriculture and who knows what else. You and those like you are the > unseen & unsung sometimes, but you could never count all those unknown > folks you have helped to keep going both in the war & peacetime, and for > that I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" > > Best regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:12:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:12:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 References: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> <001501c0d76b$4f889ec0$36f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000f01c0d764$60bbdd80$35914d0c@o3n4f8> One hell of an airplane, the Mosquito, from what I have heard. ( You should build one, Spider) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > When I was in the 1st Scouting Force Col Bud Peasley decided that we in our > P51s Could carry one drop tank Full of Window or Chaf as you are calling it > . They took an paper Drop tank and band sawed it in half lengthwise,then > they filled it with chaff > and banded it back together with metal straping that was held together by > the bomb shackles.We flew out ahead of the lead group which was the most > unprotected from Radar. When we got in position we dropped our tanks and the > chaff would spread out from the wind. As this dropped in large clouds they > figured that it was not effective. Then Col Peasley got a Mosquito bomber > and we built a dispenser in the Bomb Bay which dropped the chaff in small > bundles just like the radio operator did. We escorted the Col as he flew the > Mosquito out ahead of the lead Group This worked great the only problem was > keeping up with the Mosquito. > Enough Said > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:01 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > > > > When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember > it > > was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would > send > > a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment > I > > think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did > have > > planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and > > reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was > called > > a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were > ex > > bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one > of > > them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that > dropped > > it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. > > They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there > > would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 06:26:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:26:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war References: Message-ID: <003e01c0d77f$7eb23300$a709f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ford, I just want to say thanks for printing such an excellent piece on = your predecessor. He really does deserve the respect of all. I am just = reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a Prayer", and it was = noted very well, that the men who helped to establish the 303rd were all = taken away to form other groups, almost without exception. It was one of = the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they arrived = overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned = elsewhere. The only continuity that the 303rd retained was in the ground crews = and support groups. Their experience helped the group get through those = first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was learning how to fight = a war, in the air, like it had never been fought before. On this solemn day, when hostilities in the ETO ended so many years = ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for our freedom, especially = those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice.=20 Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fordlauer@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served = that=20 post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to = complete=20 training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted = having to=20 leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, = was a=20 rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move = on to=20 establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- = that of=20 building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these = commanders=20 to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They = worked=20 tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, = to=20 train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the = dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made = it all=20 happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in = March of=20 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In = February of=20 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on = December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of = the=20 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply = for the=20 welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some = would=20 argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one = of the=20 "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids."=20 Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late = for=20 transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the = '29s. He=20 was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war = ended,=20 Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where = he=20 commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After = returning=20 to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases = until he=20 retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the = 303rd, he=20 was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in = knowing=20 more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web = site <=20 www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send = email=20 to ..................Ford J. Lauer III=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ford,
    I just want to say thanks for = printing such=20 an excellent piece on your predecessor. He really does deserve the = respect of=20 all. I am just reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a = Prayer", and it was noted very well, that the men who helped to = establish the=20 303rd were all taken away to form other groups, almost without = exception. It was=20 one of the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they = arrived=20 overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned=20 elsewhere.
    The only continuity that the = 303rd retained=20 was in the ground crews and support groups. Their experience helped the = group=20 get through those first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was = learning=20 how to fight a war, in the air, like it had never been fought=20 before.
    On this solemn day, when = hostilities in the=20 ETO ended so many years ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for = our=20 freedom, especially those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice. =
Gordy.
 
**************************************
"Our = freedom is not=20 free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L. = Alton
129=20 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1
cell 250-537-6706 = fax=20 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= ******************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fordlauer@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 = PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After = the=20 war

Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group = commander. He served that
post from January to June of 1942. He = did not=20 have the chance to complete
training of the group, or take it = overseas. I=20 am sure he regretted having to
leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, = being one=20 of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a
rare and valued resource early = in the=20 war, and therefore had to move on to
establish other groups. He = and his=20 peers performed a remarkable task- that of
building an air force = from=20 scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders
to get units = ready for=20 combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked
tirelessly = with few=20 planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to
train pilots = and=20 crews with little flight time behind them. It was the
dedication = of the=20 commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all
happen. = Some=20 would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of =
1943. He=20 was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of =
1944,=20 he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on =
December=20 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the =
99th. He=20 never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the=20
welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose = some=20 would
argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer = was not=20 one of the
"cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men = as his=20 "kids."
Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer = was too=20 late for
transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not = needed for=20 the '29s. He
was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 = project. After=20 the war ended,
Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the = occupation=20 forces, where he
commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson = Air=20 Base. After returning
to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer = commanded=20 various air bases until he
retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer = didn't=20 fly combat with the 303rd, he
was there to plant the seeds in the=20 beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing
more about Colonel Lauer = or the=20 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site <=20
www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me = may send=20 email
to <ford lauer@aol.com>..................Ford J. Lauer = III ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:59:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:59:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: Message-ID: <001901c0d76a$df031400$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, you have really opened a jar of marmalade with this question. Luckily, I have done Extensive Research on this very subject. The answer to your question is manifold, and very complex involving an understanding of numerous manufacturers, design features, and some seriously complicated mathmatics. C.M. Swatters has probably written the "bible" on VTOL pests. Please ask your librarian to get you a copy of : " One Hundred and Ten Before Noon". As you probably already know, Swatters holds the World Record for the number of flies downed in one afternoon. It is the poignant story of one lone mans' confrontation with destiny, and how he became an Ace. To answer your question, tho; It is my understanding that " Maggots" that is , newly trained flies) were taught to release their gear from the ceiling and free-fall for one nanosecond before engaging power. naturally, I could be wrong, but I have to trust my sources , hey?) At this point the cadet flies were taught to "split Ess" and dive toward the mayonaise jar..... Anyway, knowing your penchant for details, maybe you should get the book. :----)). Damn, this is fun!. cheers, pard.(s) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > > Although I suspect the above interesting questions were retorical, > the next time you see a fly on the ceiling, put a little dish washing > soap in a glass and pour in HOT water so it foams up. Then take > that glass and slowly raise it underneath the fly. About 90% of the > time the fly will try to take off, but instead do a dive straight down > into the soap. I'm not sure if he does the half roll or not, but it is > very fast, and I'm guessing that it starts out flying upside down > (rather than just dropping like a parachute until his feet are down), > and gets dis-oriented by the white foam, and thinks he is going up > when he is really going down. Ie it is not that they drop into the > glass, but they accelerate into it. Really neat to see, but it is way > to fast to see what kind of manuever he is doing. Anyway, even > flies have a hard time flying in pea soup. > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 07:18:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:18:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> <006801c0d752$dcb03740$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF78FC7.A379A5BD@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... Please tell me more about the Lufthansa 747 that went from Rhein-Main to LaGUARDIA! Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > May be, one day the web meister will grant us a holiday ( perhaps one day > a week) where "Hanger Talk' and jokes and other Bravo Sierra, and comradrie > would be permitted for a while before we got back to the serious business of > remembering the War ( the one we didn't lose, Bill). > Jack, with out a doubt, Bill Heller will have a precise answer to the > question you have posed. If, however, our friend is out to lunch, or , on > vacation, please check out this book from your local library, " Crisis at > 37'000 ft ; A Dove In Tourist Class" written by Hans Hassledorf ( Lufthansa > pilot on flight 999, Boeing 747 non-stop from Rhein-Main to La Guardia, > 1970.) It is a gripping tale from beginning to end , replete with acts of > valor and courage unparalled in the annuls of aviation history. > Available from the Two-Egg Florida Freepress, pub. Oct. 1971. ( I hope Bill > Heller has read it.) Cheers. Lloyd. ;---) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:48 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow > roll. A > > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When > he > > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific > would > > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on > the > > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back > of > > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed > one > > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be > thinking > > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 04:17:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 23:17:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war References: <003e01c0d77f$7eb23300$a709f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <002c01c0d76d$6ea09a40$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Alton, and Mr. Lauer, history often forgets the Privates, and blames the Generals. Some fathers lived for this day 1/2 a century ago. Some were the fathers of our fathers, but we must ever be the sons and daughters of these men: "send not to know for whom the bell tolls..." Well, there I go again. Somebody Stop me. Best. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Hello Ford, I just want to say thanks for printing such an excellent piece on your predecessor. He really does deserve the respect of all. I am just reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a Prayer", and it was noted very well, that the men who helped to establish the 303rd were all taken away to form other groups, almost without exception. It was one of the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they arrived overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned elsewhere. The only continuity that the 303rd retained was in the ground crews and support groups. Their experience helped the group get through those first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was learning how to fight a war, in the air, like it had never been fought before. On this solemn day, when hostilities in the ETO ended so many years ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for our freedom, especially those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Fordlauer@aol.com To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids." Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended, Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site < www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email to ..................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 07:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:23:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? References: Message-ID: <3AF790EC.58E6EFC3@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Don't recall the frequency notes - which were on the chart given us and called something like a "flimsy" or some such funny name - But, if someone HAD to take over due to various reasons, he fired a double-yellow flare which advised all in the formation that THAT plame was taking over lead. Did it on a few occasions and it worked. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > In reading through mission information, I ran into a few missions > that confused me, which isn't hard. It was situations such as > where the primary target might be a certain target using GH > equipment, and the secondary target might be a nearby target > using PFF equipment, and the lead plane had only GH equipment > and the deputy lead plane had only PFF equipment (or visa versa). > The question is, if the conditions required use of the equipment > which was on the deputy lead aircraft, would the lead and deputy > lead planes exchange positions in the formation? If so, how was > this done, ie would the lead radio back and tell the other planes to > back off while the exchange was in progress? If not, I don't > understand how the wing plane can lead the squadron on the > bombing run. > If the exchange IS made, I am still confused as to how the other > planes are notified, because I have one data sheet indicating that > the deputy lead planes were monitoring a different frequency than > the lead plane and the other planes in the squadron. I assume this > means that the lead plane would have to switch channels to talk to > the deputy, then switch back to tell the other planes to back off, > then switch back to talk to the deputy again???? Or was this > process simpler than I am imagining, ie flares or something??? > Or did this situation just never happen, and they only bombed off > the deputy when the lead plane was damaged and dropped out of > formation? Ie I didn't actually find examples of when they bombed > by the equipment on the deputy plane, but did find examples where > it would have been a possibility, so I assume that it must have > happened. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 13:32:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:32:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? In-Reply-To: <3AF790EC.58E6EFC3@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Don't recall the frequency notes - which were on the chart given us and > called something like a "flimsy" or some such funny name - Right. The frequency note I found, was a half page sheet that was attached to the "flimsy" for one of the missions. It said that most aircraft were to monitor channel "A", but there were also channels "B","C", and "D", that other aircraft were to monitor. I have an image of this sheet at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/fr314.jpg ( I also show an example of a flimsy at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/fl314.jpg ) Basically it has freq assignments for the deputy lead planes that is different from the rest of the planes. I'd be interested in a explanation of the logic behind the chart. This also brings up the question that has been asked a couple times about to what extent did planes talk to each other on the radio, and to what extent was there radio silence. > But, if > someone HAD to take over due to various reasons, he fired a > double-yellow flare which advised all in the formation that THAT plame > was taking over lead. Did it on a few occasions and it worked. Thanks. (And to the others that responded). I guess it was not as complicated as it seemed to me. I just figured that with everyone in a tight formation, that you better make sure everyone knew that a change was being made, or someone would be following the wrong plane. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 13:32:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:32:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <001901c0d76a$df031400$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > C.M. Swatters has probably written the "bible" on VTOL pests. Please ask > your librarian to get you a copy of : " One Hundred and Ten Before Noon". > As you probably already know, Swatters holds the World Record for the number > of flies downed in one afternoon. I probably could have challenged that record, whatever it was. Several years ago, we lived next to a farm, and put on an addition at a time when the farmer put a pile of manure right next to our yard. By the time they closed up the addition, we had thousands of flies in the house. I used my soap in the glass technique. I caught so many that the top of the foam was black instead of white, but I soon learned that if I stirred it with a fork, that the flies would sink into the water below, but pretty soon I was running out of space in the glass, so I had to dump out the mixture and start from scratch a couple times. I didn't count, but I'm sure I caught several hundred. Where I live now, we have a really bad fly problem, but we have ceilings that are about 25' tall, so it is more of a challenge to get the soapy water to the flies, so I use a vacuum cleaner with about 5 extension tubes. I think someone is really sorry that he brought up the topic of flies. I promise not to say any more..... sorry. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 16:00:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? Message-ID: In the 16mm movie I have, it shows the the wing plane to the right of the plane taking the movie moving VERY close to the one taking the picture. I wondered just HOW close, so I captured an image, and noticed that the #1 prop was noticably bigger in the picture than #2, and figured out a way to calculate how far away that plane was from the size ratio (ie far away, the two props would look the same size, but close, the near one looks bigger). What I calculated was something like 47 feet, cockpit to cockpit !!!! This meant that the wing of the right wing plane extended over the fuselage of the lead plane, and that the fuselages were less than a wing's length apart!!! (This was substantiated by the fact that you couldn't see the tip of the wing in the picture.) This seemed un-necessarily close, so last year I asked a question on the "other" bomber group (heavy_bombers), and I got the response from a couple of the pilots saying that some hot shot pilots would play a game of tag, and actually bump the top of the nearby plane with it's wing! I would assume that this was just some tall tail telling to impress those of us who weren't there, but I'm curious what the pilots in this group would say. Just how close together did you get? And is it at all conceivable that a B-17 pilot would intentionally bump the next plane in the formation?!? (I hope not.) BTW, the plane that got close in my movie, was the "Queen of Hearts" http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaaqueen.JPG This isn't the image that I did the calculation from (I had another image with a better view of the engines), but you can see that it is so close that you can see the nose art, and you can see the size difference of the two engines. In the movie, this plane eased in real close, then backed off, almost like the pilot was getting close because he knew he was having his picture taken. I'm not sure what mission this was taken on, but it was after Queen of Hearts was re-named from being the "BN-Q" plane to being the "BN-X" plane, so I'm guessing early 1945, possibly Feb 14 1945 (based on the other planes identified in the movie). ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 16:36:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:36:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: <37.14a5f96c.28296c65@aol.com> Jim- Sorry, just got back, screwed up my old mail and lost your PO address=please send and I will get the pix off. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 18:04:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs References: <20010508045201.F14EF536A1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000c01c0d7e0$fd8d0ea0$3dbb9ace@mjpmtman> > Message: 27 > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought of it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just tolerates his job he is going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call me --just don't ignore me!" Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express in the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? CARRY ON!------------MAURICE PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! THAT was a fur piece ago!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 22:15:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:15:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? Message-ID: Bill Jones, From my observations as I remember them there was a considerable difference in the formations between Bomb Groups. Although I am probably prejudiced I think the 303rd probably flew the closest of most all of the Bomb Groups. I think Bill Heller's 360th Sqdn. and the 358 th Sqdn flew the closest in our 303rd Group. We spread out a bit going in and coming out, but when there was enemy fighters around and on the Bomb Run we regularly flew with our wings overlapping or underlapping and just low or high enough to stay out of the wing wash of our lead plane. I remember no case where one plane deliberately touched another one. but I would say it was not unusual to fly within 5 feet of some part of another plane. One time we were flying home from a mission. The air was smooth and there was no enemy planes in the area. We were flying lead to the low 6 planes The tail gunner in the leads left wing man was either asleep or unconscious. We pulled up under him and Bill Sachau our Bombardier opened the astro dome and reached up and grabbed the muzzles of his two guns and shook them The tail gunner woke up fast. with a very surprised look on his face. I'm glad he didn't pull the trigger. I was somewhat concerned our vertical tail would get in the wash but it didn't. I've seen the Spitfires topple the gyros on the V1s by putting their wing tip under the V1 wing tip and flipping it. I heard the P51 pilots would knock off their buddies drop tanks when they hung up and wouldn't drop. I don't remember of ever observing this but believe it would be easy for an experienced formation pilot. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 22:17:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:17:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again Message-ID: Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you over Piccadily when the lights came on? I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > Message: 27 > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for >being there!" >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought >of >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just >tolerates his job he is >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call >me --just don't ignore me!" > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express >in >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 21:42:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:42:35 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <3AF85A3B.D6E43BDA@newsfactory.net> Kevin, just a short point from the "other field post number": My Dad, a German Air Force soldier, once told me his thoughts on this date, when he was finally "sacked in" by US Infantry in Northern Italy, on May 10th(!) 45: "Finally over! A 6 years odysee is over. No more threat of live. Little bit of hope to join the family once again back home one day.... Hope....Hope.. for a better future and no more wasted years....a little bit more of time and somehow I´ll get home again.... will they all be alright back home...." Kind regards to you all from Germany, Uwe Wiedemann Kevin Pearson schrieb: > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 00:30:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:30:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <008001c0d816$ef3ce740$56f833cf@richards> On May 8th 1945 I was at a base in southern England waiting to board the Isle De France for the trip back to the states. I remember the huge bonfire where they burned Hitler in Effigy. Also remember the guys with British Girls Panties displayed around their necks .Now where do you think they got those? We sure partied all night and the next morning we boarded ship. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 02:33:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 01:33:40 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again Message-ID: <20010509013341.KEIW3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Kevin, it was party time on VE Day. I don't think many knew or cared if the lights were on. HA The party lasted about two days then the CO took charge and we found ourselves in close order drill etc. It was a great time for all. ... bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 02:50:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:50:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-80 Shooting Star Message-ID: <4b.b43b461.2829fc5c@aol.com> --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read about 6 years ago that the USAAF had a squadron of P-80(F-80) Shooting Stars, jet fighters at a base in England in 1944. Have any of you ever heard or read about this? I wonder if they encountered any Me 262s? If they did, the Germans would have a big surprise!!! Terry Lucas --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read about 6 years ago that the USAAF had a squadron of P-80(F-80) Shooting
Stars, jet fighters at a base in England in 1944. Have any of you ever heard
or read about this? I wonder if they encountered any Me 262s? If they did,
the Germans would have a big surprise!!!
Terry Lucas --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 05:18:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:18:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <3AF8C4FD.29C41B43@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... I was not in London on 8 May of 1945 but I attended many of Sid Field's musicals and comedy Stage Shows and heard Zoe Gale sing her "I'm gonna get lit up when they light up Piccadilly." dozens of times. (I was dating George Black's daughter at the time - he the owner of the Sid Field Shows and other Theatre Units) ... I was hoping to get down to London to see this spectacle, but did not. However, I was told later that there were 10 year-old English children who NEVER knew what it was to see a street light. This must have been wonderful for them. Shortly aftgert VE Day the 303rd "cadre" (me among them ... I flew one of the B17s to Casablanca) went to North Africa on a ruse ... and later home to the ZI. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 05:21:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:21:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: <008001c0d816$ef3ce740$56f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AF8C5C3.CDB20506@attglobal.net> Spider ... So you came home on the Ile de France, eh? Great ship. Food not so good they tell me. Those Brits got those panties from the GIs ... Cheers! WCH Dick Smith wrote: > On May 8th 1945 I was at a base in southern England waiting to board the > Isle De France for the trip back to the states. I remember the huge bonfire > where they burned Hitler in Effigy. Also remember the guys with British > Girls Panties displayed around their necks .Now where do you think they got > those? We sure partied all night and the next morning we boarded ship. > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:17 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again > > > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what > it > > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > > > Message: 27 > > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > > >being there!" > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > > >of > > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow > just > > >tolerates his job he is > > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > > >in > > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought > they > > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a > BLAST! > > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 13:04:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:04:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One time we were flying home from a mission. The air was smooth and > there was no enemy planes in the area. We were flying lead to the low 6 > planes The tail gunner in the leads left wing man was either asleep or > unconscious. We pulled up under him and Bill Sachau our Bombardier opened > the astro dome and reached up and grabbed the muzzles of his two guns and > shook them Great story. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 18:11:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:11:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY Message-ID: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> WISH I HAD TOTAL RECALL !! I mentioned being in Dudley on VE Day -- which got me to thinking. VE DAY was on a tues in 1945 as the clendars are identical.to 2001. Normally I went on pass on a friday night. I seem to remember I was told to stay on base for a class A dress. celebration - formation and that I could leave the base immediately afterwards. I seem to remmber an inspection and trenchs in the ground forming a V & an E!! Gasoline or napalm [ was that available then?] was lit. My question is this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. I was late getting into Dudley and the next morning we [ my British "brother" & I] joined a snake dance [curb to curb and I know a good mile or more long.] the morning of the 8th. [AND MOST OF THE AFTERNOON] Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 18:43:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:43:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY In-Reply-To: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > My question is > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies tend to blend in with reality. It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's good exercise. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 19:10:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:10:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY In-Reply-To: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: V.E. day is one of the few things I can remember from the WWII era, mainly because I was only 2 years old at the time. I just remember that they had a radio broadcast or something announcing the surrender, and my mother, and the others in the house were jumping for joy that the war was over! I remember asking if that meant that my father would be coming home, and being very confused, because of course the answer was that she didn't know whether he would be sent to the Pacific theater. So it confused me that the war was over, but the war wasn't over. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:22:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:22:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000d01c0d8bd$5a77e7c0$31914d0c@o3n4f8> The war in Europe was won long before the shooting stopped. "Elements" of the German High Command made secret overtures to the Allies seeking terms for capitulation. The unified Allied response was "Unconditional Surrender". Consequently, more for Political reasons than Stategic ones the Germans fought on. I have personal reservations regarding the actual influence Hitler wielded in the waning days of the War. Needless to say, a lot of men on both sides died whose lives might otherwise have been spared. Winston Churchill wrote a lengthy chronicle about the war and it is an excellent source , among others. I leave it to wiser men to explain. I am just very glad for the friends I have made here,, the younger; who to still care, and the Veterans; who have survived to pass along this history. I have enjoyed reading the replies everyone has made to Kevin Pearsons question. VE Day; now, there was a memory worth savoring. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY My question is > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > I was late getting into Dudley and the next morning we [ my British > "brother" & I] joined a snake dance [curb to curb and I know a good mile > or more long.] the morning of the 8th. [AND MOST OF THE AFTERNOON] > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:56:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I read it twice there, and again when I got home.) Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I know I have at least two. I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd Grant. PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:59:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:59:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #266 -May 8, 1945 Message-ID: <53.5dcf8a3.282afb97@aol.com> I can't remember the exact date that I left Stalag Luft 1 at Barth, Germany but I was walking through Germany through the Russian occupied area during that time period. I later got back to Molesworth and we had one heck of a party at the 358/427 th Officers Club. My Navigator had given me a pewter mug which I left at the bar, it was still there in 1945. All booze was free and someone brought in a bunch of English girls. I don't remember much of the evening and the next morning a Major, don't know his name, asked me why we through the girl in the fire pool. It was just outside the front door. I told him he must be mistaken but he said that I was the only 2nd. Lt. on the base so it must have been me. I still don't remember but I must have had a good time from the hangover I had. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 21:09:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:09:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #266/comments of Jprencher Message-ID: --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Jack said it perfect..I know because I flew in both squadrons, 360th and 358th. John Casello always said if we fly a good formation, you will always come home. Bill Bergeron --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      Jack said it perfect..I know because I flew in both squadrons, 360th
and 358th. John Casello always said if we fly a good formation, you will
always come home.
Bill Bergeron --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 21:34:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:34:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model Message-ID: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with innovating a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed on the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was lost over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements ( often very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but limited to space available in the new letter. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 00:18:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:18:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF96DB8.5546.233FF06@localhost> > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail > box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who > edits this always welcome and informative volume, Lloyd, I agree that the HA Newsletter is outstanding. I forwarded your note on to Eddie Deerfield, who is not a member of 303rd-Talk. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 22:41:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:41:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <3AF96DB8.5546.233FF06@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c0d8d0$e64d59c0$ea184e0c@o3n4f8> I appreciate that, Gary. Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail > > box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who > > edits this always welcome and informative volume, > > Lloyd, > I agree that the HA Newsletter is outstanding. I forwarded your note > on to Eddie Deerfield, who is not a member of 303rd-Talk. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 04:03:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:03:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model References: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001001c0d8fd$c01faa00$72184e0c@o3n4f8> Correction. Don was KIA (rtb) on 14/5/43, the same day William Bales was downed in the English Channel (not the North Sea) with no survivors. Joe BTSFPLK II went down over St. Nazaire, France thirteen days earlier !/5/43. If anyone ever wonders about the mind boggling task ( and labor of love) it must have been to compile, edit, up date, and research this kind of information; you need to go see the chaplin in hopes that HE can give you some religion. I am on my way there now. Hopefully, I will meet some of you in the line, and we can B/S while we wait our turn. Anyone that wants to see the roster, should "Buy The Book", as the saying goes. The war is over, and we are going home. WELCOME HOME ! And, Thank you, you crazy brave foolish b.....ds. grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. > "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with innovating > a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from > attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from > spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts > article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed on > the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on > #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was lost > over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all > crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews > and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements ( often > very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the > opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? > > How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other > 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a > frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). > > All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. > > ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but > limited to space available in the new letter. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:36:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:36:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft >names in the entire 8th AAF This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what is the rest of the story Lloyd? ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:59:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:59:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <000a01c0d90e$10dc0c80$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Rich Young, you are wise beyond your years. I wish I had the guts, courage, intelligence, and integrity to have been there, but I was not. My father, and these other brave men were there in my place, and yours. What else can I say? ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question, but you got it right, pardner.) ( :=+0 ). Very best, Rich. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > >names in the entire 8th AAF > > This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have > come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. > Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his > head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what > is the rest of the story Lloyd? > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:54:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:54:00 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: Message-ID: <3AFA1EE8.43B7789A@newsfactory.net> Another fact that was verified by Field Marshal Rommel´s son , his wife and his closest Staff officers is, that he, Rommel, had already made plans - around July/August 44, after operation"Overlord" had succeded- to give orders to his German troops in the West to retreat and let the Allied Forces pass through to Germany! Just to hold the lines in the East as much as possible against the Russians and keep the Russians out of Germany. At the end of June he already stated in his staff that it´s a fact the war now is lost - just a matter of time- and that it´s better to concentrate all troops at the Eastern front. After the events of July 21st, 44, Rommel was also considered to have taken part in the conspiracy against Hitler and was forced to suicide in Oct. 44. Uwe Bill Jones schrieb: > > > My question is > > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something > about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a > complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the > Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, > and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US > rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about > there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier > than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > > > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I > know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not > sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies > tend to blend in with reality. > > It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other > bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a > message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly > about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I > think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went > on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an > intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about > how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the > base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only > problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in > question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he > had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had > been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. > I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my > own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said > even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying > anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that > do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. > Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's > good exercise. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 06:06:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:06:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model References: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> <001001c0d8fd$c01faa00$72184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001401c0d90f$03610280$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Correction: " People". No B......ds in the 303rd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > Correction. Don was KIA (rtb) on 14/5/43, the same day William Bales was > downed in the English Channel (not the North Sea) with no survivors. Joe > BTSFPLK II went down over St. Nazaire, France thirteen days earlier !/5/43. > > If anyone ever wonders about the mind boggling task ( and labor of love) it > must have been to compile, edit, up date, and research this kind of > information; you need to go see the chaplin in hopes that HE can give you > some religion. I am on my way there now. Hopefully, I will meet some of > you in the line, and we can B/S while we wait our turn. > Anyone that wants to see the roster, should "Buy The Book", as the saying > goes. > > The war is over, and we are going home. > > WELCOME HOME ! And, Thank you, you crazy brave foolish b.....ds. > > grant. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:34 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > > > > Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. > > "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with > innovating > > a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from > > attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from > > spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts > > article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed > on > > the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on > > #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was > lost > > over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all > > crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews > > and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements often > > very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the > > opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? > > > > How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other > > 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a > > frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). > > > > All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. > > > > ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but > > limited to space available in the new letter. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 06:24:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:24:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: <3AFA1EE8.43B7789A@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <003901c0d911$76c70600$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Uwe, it is unenviable to be a wise man in the service of tyrants, or worse; fools. ( I am glad that your dad got home to his family; just as I am glad that you are his son.) LLoyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY > Another fact that was verified by Field Marshal Rommel´s son , his wife and his > closest Staff officers is, that he, Rommel, had already made plans - around > July/August 44, after operation"Overlord" had succeded- to give orders to his > German troops in the West to retreat and let the Allied Forces pass through to > Germany! Just to hold the lines in the East as much as possible against the > Russians and keep the Russians out of Germany. At the end of June he already > stated in his staff that it´s a fact the war now is lost - just a matter of > time- and that it´s better to concentrate all troops at the Eastern front. > After the events of July 21st, 44, Rommel was also considered to have taken > part in the conspiracy against Hitler and was forced to suicide in Oct. 44. > Uwe > > Bill Jones schrieb: > > > > > > My question is > > > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > > > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > > > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > > > I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something > > about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a > > complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the > > Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, > > and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US > > rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about > > there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier > > than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > > > > > > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > > > I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I > > know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not > > sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies > > tend to blend in with reality. > > > > It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other > > bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a > > message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly > > about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I > > think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went > > on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an > > intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about > > how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the > > base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only > > problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in > > question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he > > had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had > > been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. > > I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my > > own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said > > even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying > > anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that > > do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. > > Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's > > good exercise. > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 16:45:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:45:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <006101c0d968$383382e0$941b4e0c@o3n4f8> Rich, here is an anecdotal note regarding Joe BTFSPLK II. In the crew photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and Larry" are painted. Apparently , my father married "Dottie" before he shipped over to the ETO. My Aunt informs me that this marriage didn't last long when it was discovered that "Dottie" was more interested in the allotment check and was really looking forward to a financial windfall from the GI Insurance. ( Some gal, hey?). One of Dotties boyfriiends spilled the beans to Larrys family. That is not a letter I'd have wanted to write. The picture at the 303rd BGA was taken before they flew overseas. I reckon "Dottie" didn't stay aboard old Joe B for very long. My dad made his 25 physically in one piece, and supposedly went back for another tour although there is no record of this at the 303rd. Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > >names in the entire 8th AAF > > This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have > come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. > Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his > head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what > is the rest of the story Lloyd? > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 19:50:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <006101c0d968$383382e0$941b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > In the crew > photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and > Larry" are painted. This brings up an interesting (to me anyway) topic. I had been interested in the fact that I've corresponded with several people who insist that their relatives flew in planes with names that differed from the "official" names that these planes had (by official I mean those listed on the aircraft inventories). One person I corresponded with insisted that her relative flew all 35 missions in a particular named plane that didn't exist in the records at that time he flew. I had come to the conclusion that there must have been "unofficial" names for these planes, or different names given by the different crew members, but I had no evidence of this until I looked at the video that has been making the rounds. It really struck me as to how many different names were painted on those early planes. Ie each crew position seemed to have a different name painted on it. Even the engines were named! Now I can understand why there might have been some ambiguity about the names of these planes, ie if the planes could have a half dozen different names painted on them. I was wondering whether this same sort of thing occurred later in the war? Ie did crew members still put the names of their choice around their crew positions even though they flew different planes each mission? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 20:33:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:33:55 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... It must be realized that there were only so many airplanes and so many crews and crew positions. When the mission demanded it a person flew WHICHEVER plane was available. Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. During the time I was CO of a Squadron I arranged for some fellows to have "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s, and take a picture so they could send it home to the loved one(s). In many cases, the paint was washed off within the hour. Also, when censoring letters I noted lots of fellows who dreamed up names for the purpose of telling their loved one(s) at home they named the plane for them, ... but they were names of planes which did not exist. That was the way I got my idea of having names "painted" on a B17 .. for the purpose of sending them home. Many times crews would be called out for a mission and "their" plane was not available, so they flew anoher one. In the end, we flew the planes we HAD with the crews we HAD at the time. Except for Mon cur, I do not recall any crew which flew so many mssions in "their own" plane. And for those who did a lot of leading, we flew whichever plane was set up for THAT particular mission. This included certain additional radio gear, etc. The plane under which my crew was photographed when we got there to Molesworth, we flew on ONE mission! I believe we could have helped a lot of moral if we did those "hourly" paint jobs that I did with certain fellows who wanted same. In the end, the MISSION is what counted. We flew the PLANES we had with the CREWS we had at the time. Some crews were even augmented now and then with DIFFERENT crew positions filled by MEN from other crews. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > In the crew > > photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and > > Larry" are painted. > > This brings up an interesting (to me anyway) topic. I had been > interested in the fact that I've corresponded with several people who > insist that their relatives flew in planes with names that differed > from the "official" names that these planes had (by official I mean > those listed on the aircraft inventories). One person I corresponded > with insisted that her relative flew all 35 missions in a particular > named plane that didn't exist in the records at that time he flew. I > had come to the conclusion that there must have been "unofficial" > names for these planes, or different names given by the different > crew members, but I had no evidence of this until I looked at the > video that has been making the rounds. > It really struck me as to how many different names were painted > on those early planes. Ie each crew position seemed to have a > different name painted on it. Even the engines were named! Now I > can understand why there might have been some ambiguity about > the names of these planes, ie if the planes could have a half dozen > different names painted on them. > I was wondering whether this same sort of thing occurred later in > the war? Ie did crew members still put the names of their choice > around their crew positions even though they flew different planes > each mission? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 23:26:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:26:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> > Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern > Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many > missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 00:07:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bruce Brown) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:07:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <008601c0d9a5$f247d900$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Al Capp, right? Lois Brown -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J Grant Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:56 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I read it twice there, and again when I got home.) Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I know I have at least two. I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd Grant. PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 01:11:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:11:05 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" In-Reply-To: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> References: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010510141105.007b6650@ilhawaii.net> Gary, The Goodberlet crew flew 17 of their 36 missions in Bouncing Betty III. I'm sure we would have flown more if she had not been out action for a month after the 13January mission to Mannheim. After we got her back we flew 11 of our rmaining 16 missions in her. We thought of her as "our" aircraft. Jim Walling At 03:26 PM 5/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >> Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern >> Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many >> missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. > >Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of >her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new >aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." >The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she >was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to >have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to >complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of >the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew >photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. > >Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 00:57:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:57:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <008601c0d9a5$f247d900$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c0d9ac$fd4da3a0$3d904d0c@o3n4f8> Al Capp, had some strange folks in his fertile cartoonist brain. Joe BTFSPLK was one of them. A little guy in a slouch hat and a black cloud following him where ever he went. (nice going , Lois, you pegged it.) Does anyone remember the "Schmoo's" ? Good friends to have when the mess hall is closed. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Brown" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > Al Capp, right? Lois Brown > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J Grant > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:56 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > > > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. > I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this > always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who > contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the > post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for > so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I > read it twice there, and again when I got home.) > Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story > featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one > my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. > It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I > know I have at least two. > I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed > to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. > Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very > well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd > Grant. > > PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would > name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed > Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any > interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 03:43:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:43:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010510141105.007b6650@ilhawaii.net> References: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> Message-ID: <3AFAEF46.5116.143FCD5@localhost> > > The Goodberlet crew flew 17 of their 36 missions in Bouncing Betty > III. I'm sure we would have flown more if she had not been out action > for a month after the 13January mission to Mannheim. After we got her > back we flew 11 of our rmaining 16 missions in her. We thought of her > as "our" aircraft. Jim, 17 out of 36 is quite a bit. I don't know, but I'd bet there weren't many that flew half their missions in the same B-17. From what I've heard talking with lots of 303rders, most had a favorite B-17 they called their own. I know Thunderbird was claimed by at least two other crews later on. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 03:57:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 02:57:53 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" Message-ID: <20010511025753.FTPY8055.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Gary, you are correct. I completed 14 missions prior to VE DAY in 10 different aircraft. ...Bill Runnels > > > > > > > Jim, > 17 out of 36 is quite a bit. I don't know, but I'd bet there weren't > many that flew half their missions in the same B-17. . > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 04:20:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:20:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <9d.15218953.282cb472@aol.com> I flew my missions during 1944. What happened before or after that I do not know from first hand experience. We paid no attention what so ever to names painted on the planes. Each plane had a squadron identification which consisted of two letters of the alphabet painted on the side The 358th was VK some other squadron had BN. Then each bird had a letter printed on the vertical tail like A able B baker C Charlie D dog. etc. We were assigned a bird VK I . The radio call sign would be vipped Kreem I Item. It had no name while I was there. If the plane was flyable and we were flying we usually flew it. If it was available and we were not flying some other crew probably flew it. If we were flying and VK I Item was not available we flew another bird. The name did not matter. The Squadrons 2 letters and the planes letter was our radio call sign and what we called the plane. When we had our crew picture taken it was in front of a plane I never remember flying. and they had one crew after another line up in front of the same bird to take their picture. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 06:45:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:45:24 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea which I'm sure satisfied many back home to endure the clouds of wartime. When my brother Dave & his wife Tawny were originally searching for her father, her mom said "his" aircraft was named "Ginger" though I believe no record of it exists in the 303rd and is probably another of those stories sent home. The new B17G Lt. Roy and crew flew over to England named "Old Daddy Rabbit" apparently in some reference to his active living. This one was taken away on arrival & prior to their assignment to the 427th. And to Mr. Bob Hand, with your artistic abilities, did you do any "decoration" of aircraft while at Molesworth? Best regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 08:29:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:29:37 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: Message-ID: <3AFB94E0.EFF5A2F@attglobal.net> Rich Young ... The "name" painting was a great morale booster at the time. Cheers! Bill Heller Rich Young wrote: > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea which I'm sure satisfied > many back home to endure the clouds of wartime. When my brother Dave & his > wife Tawny were originally searching for her father, her mom said "his" > aircraft was named "Ginger" though I believe no record of it exists in the > 303rd and is probably another of those stories sent home. The new B17G Lt. > Roy and crew flew over to England named "Old Daddy Rabbit" apparently in > some reference to his active living. This one was taken away on arrival & > prior to their assignment to the 427th. > > And to Mr. Bob Hand, with your artistic abilities, did you do any > "decoration" of aircraft while at Molesworth? > > Best regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 08:21:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:21:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> Message-ID: <3AFB92E1.4C7F5D95@attglobal.net> Thanks Gary. Hello and love to the family. Cheers ... Ruth and Bill Gary Moncur wrote: > > Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern > > Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many > > missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. > > Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of > her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new > aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." > The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she > was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to > have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to > complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of > the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew > photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. > > Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:47:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:47:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <7a.149ed2ba.282d3948@aol.com> We flew 26 out of 35 missions in F-PU 46517 with Fink's Crew....great mother plane to us all....first mission was in "Aloha" with Beazly as pilot and Fink as copilot. Bombed the Kalk-Nord RR yards Oct. 17 '44 Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:50:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:50:02 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: Story about Al Capp who only had one leg and while staying in hotels used to terrify room service jocks by leaving his prosthesis poking out from under the bed. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:18:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:18:04 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: Message-ID: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had Carl Maulden. > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 15:11:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bruce Brown) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:11:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About VE day... Message-ID: <004401c0da24$38fa9d00$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> ...since we had only just learned my brother Howie was "missing in action," I think my folks were too miserable to celebrate VE Day. I have no memory of it, anyway. But I have a distinct memory of VJ day the following August. We had (still have) a country place in the Berkshires of Western Massachusetts. The moment school let out in June, Mom would whisk us into the car, towels, quilts, bathing suits, sweaters, and Dad either would drive us up from Mount Vernon (just north of NYC) or we would take the train. In those days, we spent the entire summer at our house on Lake Buel, while Dad came up on weekends. In 1945 I was the only one left at home to whisk. It was a sober summer. Though quite young, I did a lot of thinking, a lot of growing up. Early in August I heard on our radio that the Japanese had surrendered. Stunning news in that beautiful place. I clearly remember I stood by myself on our screened porch that overlooked the lake. The surface of the water was as still as glass, so that the opposite shore was mirrored in its reflection. Now and then fish rose after a fly, leaving a concentric circle which widened to overlap another, and another, and another. Everything seemed same as it always had been, yet somewhere, far, far away, World War II was over and nothing would be the same again. Hugs to everyone, Lois From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 15:14:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:14:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Whoops... Message-ID: <004501c0da24$a3365a60$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> ...sometimes I use our generic Road Runner address by mistake. "itslois@rochester.rr.com" is my very own. Itslois From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 20:08:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:08:25 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: <3f.14f753b9.282d92a9@aol.com> Steve Canyon and bro. were the work of Milton Canniff....ah yes, his Dragon Lady. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 20:17:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AFC3AAD.1661A95F@attglobal.net> Grant ... BILL Malden .... Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything > possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up > for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely > delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been > awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a > person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. > Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On > this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had > Carl Maulden. > > > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! > You > > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... > anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 22:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:12:16 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFC3AAD.1661A95F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001801c0da5f$114d49c0$9f8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Roger that. What the heck was I thinking. More than just a cartoonist, BILL MALDEN, was quite a human being. Cheers and thanks for the correction. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Grant ... > > BILL Malden .... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything > > possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up > > for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely > > delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been > > awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a > > person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. > > Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On > > this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had > > Carl Maulden. > > > > > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > > > > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! > > You > > > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > > > > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > > > > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... > > anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 22:22:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:22:49 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <3f.14f753b9.282d92a9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001e01c0da60$89239520$9f8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Bob, I had forgotten who drew that strip. I was pretty much of a "shaver" in those days. Can you believe , I got Carl Mauldens' name twisted up with Bill Malden. Cheese ! Bill Heller put me back on the right track on that one. Very best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Steve Canyon and bro. were the work of Milton Canniff....ah yes, his Dragon > Lady. Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 23:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:35:33 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " Message-ID: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while reading it !!LOL Cheers, Moofy (Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:09:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:09:14 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: <8f.ab93189.282dcb1a@aol.com> --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd--- 1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin. 2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again. Mike Zarelli --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---
            1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin.
            2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again.
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:34:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:34:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " Message-ID: Hello Moofy! Another demon of our American funny-papers was a character who said "Nov schmoz kapop!" Don't think anyone ever found out what that meant, either. Hope you're enjoying some decent weather...had an ideal sunny breezy day in the high 70's. No doubt somebody'll be on line with the exact dude who uttered that bit of nonsense. Have a most happy "MUM'S' day!! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 23:40:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:40:02 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <8f.ab93189.282dcb1a@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0da6b$53a5bb20$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> I have been brought to task several times for that gaff, Mike, but thanks. Hope you enjoy the tape. Let me know when you get it. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Lloyd--- > 1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin. > 2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again. > > Mike Zarelli > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:14:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:14:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " References: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001201c0da70$1a1749a0$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Moofy, this explaination of Joe BTFSPLK may be a bit repetitive for some and I hope they will indulge this reiteration. Al Capp (a very well known cartoonist of the era) did a daily strip in the funny paper section called "L'il Abner" there were a host of characters based on an Arkansas Hillbilly community. Joe BTFSPLK was one of these characters. He was the epitome of "Catch 22"; nothing ever went right for him. He was depicted as a little guy wearing a black slouch hat. Every where he went a dark cloud hovered over him. It could be a bright sun shiney day all around him , but he was always getting rained on. Needless to say, he didn't have a very good attitude about things. The strip was intended to parody the mores and customs of the times, and was very popular ( much like "Giles", and I am sure you remember, Giles making fun of EVERYBODY). There were alot of other characters equally as interesting, for instance "Fearless Fosdick", "Daisey Mae" "L'il Abner" and a host of others. Sadly, there is not much on the internet that I have found that has much information about the strip. Why Don Stockton, (and/or) his crew mates decided to christen 42-24610 with this name is anyones guess. It was rather unique tho. F/O Zooey sends her regards in addition to mine. Very Best to you, and the Newly Weds. Lloyd. (ps. if the letters actually were an anagram for something, very likely, only Al Capp knew.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > > Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me > 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you > put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I > promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while > reading it !!LOL > Cheers, > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:20:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:20:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " References: Message-ID: <001801c0da70$ee226e00$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, Nov schmoz kapop! Now, there is a bit of nonsense I haven't used. Thanks for the tip. :=)) LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > Hello Moofy! Another demon of our American funny-papers was a character > who said "Nov schmoz kapop!" Don't think anyone ever found out what that > meant, either. Hope you're enjoying some decent weather...had an ideal sunny > breezy day in the high 70's. No doubt somebody'll be on line with the exact > dude who uttered that bit of nonsense. > Have a most happy "MUM'S' day!! Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 02:22:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:22:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May newsletter). Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on this. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 03:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:55:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England References: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <007201c0da8e$f54f4cc0$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Moofy, Where in the UK are you? I am going over there the first 2 weeks in Oct., with a bunch of 91st vets, for "one last time". Maybe we can shake hands, if it works out. Gordy ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > > Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me > 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you > put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I > promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while > reading it !!LOL > Cheers, > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:01:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:01:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] About VE day... Message-ID: <7a.14a73b53.282e01a0@aol.com> lois. what a nice enjoyable picture you have painted. cheers for being so very fortunate. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:44:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:44:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: <30.14995767.282e0ba5@aol.com> Mr. Lloyd J. Grant, I flew both F and G models and some earlier ones. If you read the specs in the books there might have been a 2 or 3 mile per hour difference in the speeds between the two. The chin turret undoubtedly added a bit of drag and weight BUT no one flying the two birds could detect any difference. If a bird had repairs, a wing change, an engine change, the controls reriged, a paint job, a sick engine, turbo. or prop, a forward center of gravity or lots of hours it could have changes in performance that would make the chin turret change insignificant. The F had guns in the nose but they were flexible guns like the waist guns and you only fired one a time. The chin turret had a much better optical sight and you fired two guns at once so it tossed twice as much lead per minute. It was a very effective modification after we learned how to use them and made no noticeable difference in the flight characteristics of the B17G and the Fs that had them. My research indicates that flies do a half roll when they land on the ceiling and a split S when they leave. Except horse flies who's tails got in the way and I. could not observe them. I also found that flies are more attracted to peach jam than honey. PS Does anyone know how to get sweet stains off ones kitchen ceiling? Best Wishes, See you in Baltimore come September Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:53:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:53:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: call in the MERRY MAIDS> spec jack ,did i read on this line recently a request that users set out their life's trails since wwLL? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:35:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:35:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <30.14995767.282e0ba5@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0da94$a11692c0$24904d0c@o3n4f8> As ever, thank you, Mr. Rencher ( Jack). I have heard and read various opinions on this subject. The concensus seems to be in agreement with your remarks, ie. the added firepower where it was needed far outweighed any liabilities from weight and drag. Another part of the question related to ( for lack of a better word) retrofitting a nose gun into the front of the plane that the bombadier/ or, navigator could fire straight ahead. For what seems to me, apparent reasons, the top turrett could not deflect enough to engage a straight on , or a low frontal attack. Neither could the original "F" model chin guns. The origin of my curiosity is Mr. Goebrechts article in the recent news letter. Who only knows how many times this guestion has been asked of you guys. I just wanted to give it one more good lashing, I suppose. Il fait pas de quois, mon ami. Since some other fool initiated that question about the flies I have gone to great pains to observe the cited flight maneuvers of these insidious air pirates and I have to agree with your findings, Mr R. Definately a half roll landing, and almost invariably a split S on departure ( provided the aerosol didn't get them). In Idaho perhaps Peach jam does it for them, down here it is without fail , Strawberry jam. Swat one for me. Thanks again, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Mr. Lloyd J. Grant, I flew both F and G models and some earlier ones. If you > read the specs in the books there might have been a 2 or 3 mile per hour > difference in the speeds between the two. The chin turret undoubtedly added > a bit of drag and weight BUT no one flying the two birds could detect any > difference. If a bird had repairs, a wing change, an engine change, the > controls reriged, a paint job, a sick engine, turbo. or prop, a forward > center of gravity or lots of hours it could have changes in performance that > would make the chin turret change insignificant. > > The F had guns in the nose but they were flexible guns like the waist > guns and you only fired one a time. The chin turret had a much better > optical sight and you fired two guns at once so it tossed twice as much lead > per minute. It was a very effective modification after we learned how to use > them and made no noticeable difference in the flight characteristics of the > B17G and the Fs that had them. > > My research indicates that flies do a half roll when they land on the > ceiling and a split S when they leave. Except horse flies who's tails got in > the way and I. could not observe them. I also found that flies are more > attracted to peach jam than honey. > PS Does anyone know how to get sweet stains off ones kitchen ceiling? > Best Wishes, See you in Baltimore come September > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:49:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:49:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: Message-ID: <001201c0da96$9a8f3540$24904d0c@o3n4f8> Yes, sir. If I read you correctly here. I believe it was me that made a comment about the war being over, or words to that effect a few days ago. In retrospect, that comment was probably as ill founded as some others I have made. Mr. Rencher has the right idea when it comes to taking offense. Why bother? In any case, no offense is ever intended, the choice of words is occassoionally regretable. ( I hope this was aimed at me. I sure hate to waste a good apology. I am running low.) Cheers, Spec. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > call in the MERRY MAIDS> spec jack ,did i read on this line recently a > request that users set out their life's trails since wwLL? spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 08:13:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 00:13:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Grant ... The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > newsletter). > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > this. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 14:54:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:54:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000d01c0daeb$0eb3ad80$66874d0c@o3n4f8> Yes, sir. Thank you. As Mr. Rencher commented, the comfort of the added firepower where it was needed would certainly overcome the modest liabilities of the added drag on the planes equipped with the chin turret. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Grant ... > > The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with > certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > > newsletter). > > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > > this. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 15:47:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:47:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <005601c0daf3$621f4b20$bc09f4cc@e0y0k4> I believe that the 'G' model had enough engine, prop, and turbocharger improvements that the total loss in IAS was less than 10 knots. Bomb load was supposed to be higher, in theory, at least. I'd love to hear from some of the pilots if the theory matched with the facts. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Grant ... > > The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with > certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > > newsletter). > > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > > this. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 18:57:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:57:47 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Bob. Message-ID: <001b01c0db0d$0e3fe4a0$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Bob, Would you believe Mr. Sun has found his way to our little island at long last, and we are really enjoying it. This morning I went into Chester and stood next to a 'lady' in one of the shops who was complaining that 'it is too hot' !! (Typical English !!)LOL Thank you for the 'MUM'S' day good wishes, Mother's day here was the 26th March, but I am not complaining with sharing another 'MUM'S day is just great. Thank you again kind sir. Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 18:56:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:56:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this question. To me, although I understand that on a B-17 they have different duties, both a pilot and co-pilot would seem to both have to be "pilots" , ie both are capable of flying a plane. However I have noticed in messages from several people, quite a bit of territorialism with respect to these positions. The question I have deals with the "loading lists" that I find on the microfilm records. These loading lists give the crew assignments for each plane on each mission. The information given in the loading list includes (1) the position flown on that particular day, (2) the person's name, (3) rank, (4) what I think must be the job description of the individual, ie MOS or whatever they call it. Usually, the lists look like: P Name rank P CP Name rank CP N Name rank N B Name rank B etc, etc However often you see something like; P Name rank CP CP Name rank P etc, etc I "think" this would typically be when an experienced pilot was checking out a new pilot who had previously flown as a co-pilot, on his first mission as a pilot, because usually a mission or 2 after that, the pilot's rating would be changed to P . However I am VERY confused with respect to the ratings that accompanied my father's name on the loading lists. He didn't come to Molesworth as part of a crew, so for the first 3 months, he only flew a few missions, a couple as co-pilot, and one as pilot, but the job description column was listed as "P" . Then, he started flying with a crew that was a group of people who had all previously flown on other crews, and he flew as co-pilot, with a pilot who was previously a co-pilot. He flew 7 missions with this crew, and on each mission, even though he was flying as co-pilot, his job description was still listed as "P" . After that, he started flying as a pilot, however on his first several missions as a pilot, his job description was changed to "CP", and it wasn't until he started flying as a squadron lead pilot that it was changed back to "P" . Can someone explain the switch from "P" to "CP" and back to "P" ? Was this some kind of demotion of status, or was it likely just some book-keeping irregularity? In looking through lots of these loading lists, I haven't run across something like this with anyone else, however my father's situation was different from most other pilots there because he served nearly 3 years as a flying instructor before coming to Molesworth, so he was an experienced pilot, but he had very little time in B-17s when he got there, having only gone through about 6 weeks of 4-eng transition before going overseas. Anyway, I've been confused as to why he flew co-pilot with a pilot's rating, then flew as pilot with a co-pilots rating.... just seemed strange. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 19:20:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:20:18 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. Message-ID: <002301c0db10$3392eb00$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Well what a great little character Joe BTFSPLK appears to have been. By the sound of him, I think he moved in round the corner from our house !! LOL You have solved a few 'mystery's' for me, as now I know where the nose art names of "L'il Abner, Fearless Fosdick, and Daisey Mae all came from. Well the 'big day' is getting closer, in fact four weeks today, and we should just have finished the 'Wedding Breakfast (who else but the English would sit down to breakfast at 5pm in the evening !!)LOL Four weeks tomorrow, Pete will know if it was all worth the big 'hole' in his bank account it has cost him !!LOL Please give F/O Zooey a big hug from me. (and tell her to give you a big lick from me !!) Luvs and Hugs Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 19:30:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:30:55 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England Message-ID: <002b01c0db11$aec75580$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Gordy, We live in the North West of England, about 7 miles from the Roman City of Chester, and just over the Mersey from Liverpool. Would you believe it, we are going down to spend a week in East Anglia, staying at Peterborough from 1st July so I can visit some of the 8thAF bases. Doubt we will be able to get down there again in October, as it is Pete's busy time at work. Still, perhaps when you know where you are staying, you could send me your hotel phone number, and I can ring you and say 'Hi' (let me know what you think Gordy ).. It is when all the vets are coming over for visits, that I wish we lived down in the East Anglia region !!LOL Hope you are having a good day, Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:34:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:34:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp Message-ID: <65.143c30e7.282ef866@aol.com> I saw Al Capp on TV once and he explained why he was not on the Congressional Investigation List. He said that when he was in college there was a Communist Group that had Free Beer periodically. The catch was that it cost a quarter, I think monthly, to belong. He said that he never had a quarter so he never became a member so no Free beer. Cheers, Bill D From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:11:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:11:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. References: <002301c0db10$3392eb00$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001201c0db1f$af4cf7e0$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Moofey, may the Schmoos attend to you all. (if you all are done with all that rain, us Crackers would be glad to put it to good use). Regards from Coyote Airlines, and F/O. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. > Well what a great little character Joe BTFSPLK appears to have been. By the > sound of him, I think he moved in round the corner from our house !! LOL > You have solved a few 'mystery's' for me, as now I know where the nose art > names of "L'il Abner, Fearless Fosdick, and Daisey Mae all came from. > > Well the 'big day' is getting closer, in fact four weeks today, and we > should just have finished the 'Wedding Breakfast (who else but the English > would sit down to breakfast at 5pm in the evening !!)LOL Four weeks > tomorrow, Pete will know if it was all worth the big 'hole' in his bank > account it has cost him !!LOL > Please give F/O Zooey a big hug from me. (and tell her to give you a big > lick from me !!) > Luvs and Hugs > Moofy > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:13:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:13:02 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp References: <65.143c30e7.282ef866@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c0db1f$f3b0e720$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, any word from the pony express?? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp > I saw Al Capp on TV once and he explained why he was not on the Congressional > Investigation List. He said that when he was in college there was a Communist > Group that had Free Beer periodically. The catch was that it cost a quarter, > I think monthly, to belong. He said that he never had a quarter so he never > became a member so no Free beer. > Cheers, > Bill D > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:58:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:58:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <002a01c0db26$43171400$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Em dokeymints cum in on the express, pard. Har! e aint no green stick, ats fur shor. 'am right nough obleeged fer the fat taller, an the jaw-bone. Thankee, companero. What a treat that was , Mtn. Man. Don't ever cut yourself short, sir. I thoroughly enjoyed reading all of it. Your memories of Molesworth and the trip across the "pond" are what I have asked for many times at the 303rd forum. With your permission, I will share these recollections with some other guys who would be equally glad to read them like Bill Owens, Donald Kehne, Gordy Alton and a few others. It is sad that alot of the guys that probably monitor our chin-chins on the forum wont kick in their two cents worth also. Perhaps they feel like their contributions were not important because they weren't risking their lives flying missions. Well, the fact is there wouldn't have been any missions if it hadn't been for the combined efforts and sacrifice of everyone. I don't think I am alone in this thinking at all, and, certainly not by the men who did fly them. Very best to you, Mr. Paulk, and please tell your bride Happy Moms' Day from all of us at "Coyote Airlines" ( the only Airline without a plane ; a very "sensible" omission) . Cheers. Lloyd Grant. HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL THE COURAGEOUS GALS WHO KEEP THESE FELLOWS IN LINE. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 23:48:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:48:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: <65.144215c3.282f17c5@aol.com> Bill Jones, All copilots are pilots. A pilot is a rating. It has nothing to do with rank. A pilot could be a General or a Sergeant. A copilot is a position on the crew A pilot could fly as tail gunner. and some of them did in the lead airplane to judge the formation. It was not unusual for two rated first pilots to fly on one crew. One could log all the first pilot time or they could split it. Some squadrons did it one way. Some another. Usually when a Group flew as lead Group on a mission, there might be a General Senior Pilot flying as Pilot or copilot. Usually the other pilot was a very experienced First pilot and maybe a Captain or Major. But he might be listed as and flying as copilot. One had to be checked out in each type of plane to fly as first pilot. He might not be checked out in B17s as first pilot and have 20,000 hours as first pilot in B24s. It was not at all unusual for a first pilot to fly as copilot. I personally had several hundred hours in B17s as first pilot in a gunnery school and went overseas as a copilot. I had several hundred hours more first pilot hours in B17s than did my first pilot. I flew about half my missions as first pilot and half as copilot. On new crews They often left the copilot home or on another crew and I flew with the new pilot to check him and his crew out on their first combat mission. On such assignments I considered myself as the absolute boss and Instructor pilot but I was listed on the loading lists as copilot. This was so the regular pilot would get the time as first pilot. Other Squadrons might have done it differently. It sounds to me like your Father had a similar job to what I did. Don't ask me why I went over as a copilot. It is a Military Secret. I am so stupid I can bounce a B17 equally well from either seat. I often got 4 to 6 bounces from each landing. Or you might say 4 to 6 landings from each approach. It didn't matter if the Throttles were in my left hand or my right. I should have left the gear up. They don't bounce to well on their belly. If someone else answers you, believe them not me. It won't hurt my feelings. I was a first pilot in B24s too.(Not in the War) They are harder to bounce Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:19:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:19:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England References: <002b01c0db11$aec75580$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001b01c0db4a$ca1dfe40$8709f4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks, Moofy. I'll let you know when I get our itinerary, and we'll touch base again. We can swap numbers then. Best to you and Pete. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England > Hi Gordy, > We live in the North West of England, about 7 miles from the Roman City of > Chester, and just over the Mersey from Liverpool. Would you believe it, we > are going down to spend a week in East Anglia, staying at Peterborough from > 1st July so I can visit some of the 8thAF bases. Doubt we will be able to > get down there again in October, as it is Pete's busy time at work. Still, > perhaps when you know where you are staying, you could send me your hotel > phone number, and I can ring you and say 'Hi' (let me know what you think > Gordy ).. It is when all the vets are coming over for visits, that I wish > we lived down in the East Anglia region !!LOL > Hope you are having a good day, > Luvs and Hugs, > Moofy > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:55:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:55:37 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, if you are still interested in trips across the pond I will be glad to share mine as it was exciting to say the least.I did not keep a log so I can;t give you the exact dates, only the general time frame. We picked up a new B-17G at Hunter Field, Ga. and headed for Bangor, Me. We were contacted en-route and ordered to land in Trenton, N.J. as there was an ice storm over the Atlantic. I remember we spent both Christmas and New Years Eve there. New Years Eve at Times Square was a blast. Then on to Bangor. I landed the aircraft and didn't do to bad for a bombardier. After a few days on to Goose Bay, Lab. Here again we spent a few days getting ready for the big one. They dispatched our group of 20 B-17's at night. Navigation was impossible as we couldn't see the stars or the ocean. The metro data they provided turned out to be bad. We reached the point where we should be able to pick up the radio signal on the southern tip of Greenland, but we couldn't. A short time later we did and discovered that we were far north of course. We turned due south and homed in on the radio signal. A new course was plotted and we had just cleared the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn that the field was closed due high surface winds. Consideration was given to bailing out over the ice caps but this thought process didn't prevail on a crew vote. The only other choice was to attempt a landing at Buie- west #1. They advised they didn't have electric runway lights and the winds were to strong for the pots. Jeeps with lights on were parked at each end of the runway. We let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. When I dropped out of the nose hatch the wind blew me several hundred feet from the plane. They picked us up with a truck. Five of the twenty B-17's landed in Greenland. We were informed that two sent in S.O.S. signals. One of the two made it and one was lost. The balance of the group made Iceland as scheduled. While in Greenland someone stole my two boxes of candy bars. HA Two days later we departed for Iceland. We encountered thunder heads en-route, lost our main oxygen supply and dropped down to 18,000 feet. Our bail out bottles provided oxygen for the pilot. co-pilot and navigator. Our navigator would look at me on the floor and say Bill you are turning blue again and hand me his mask for a minute or two. We made Iceland okay then on to Valley , Wales the next day. The aircraft was left at Valley and we were trucked to Molesworth arriving on February 1, 1945. What a trip!....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:11:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:11:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints References: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <000901c0db49$b7dec760$26914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Sir. You guys should have been credited with a couple of combat missions after that trip. Good story ! Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints > Lloyd, if you are still interested in trips across the > pond I will be glad to share mine as it was exciting to > say the least.I did not keep a log so I can;t give you > the exact dates, only the general time frame. We picked > up a new B-17G at Hunter Field, Ga. and headed for > Bangor, Me. We were contacted en-route and ordered to > land in Trenton, N.J. as there was an ice storm over the > Atlantic. I remember we spent both Christmas and New > Years Eve there. New Years Eve at Times Square was a > blast. Then on to Bangor. I landed the aircraft and > didn't do to bad for a bombardier. After a few days on > to Goose Bay, Lab. Here again we spent a few days > getting ready for the big one. They dispatched our group > of 20 B-17's at night. Navigation was impossible as we > couldn't see the stars or the ocean. The metro data they > provided turned out to be bad. We reached the point > where we should be able to pick up the radio signal on > the southern tip of Greenland, but we couldn't. A short > time later we did and discovered that we were far north > of course. We turned due south and homed in on the radio > signal. A new course was plotted and we had just cleared > the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil > announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make > Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio > contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn > that the field was closed due high surface winds. > Consideration was given to bailing out over the ice caps > but this thought process didn't prevail on a crew vote. > The only other choice was to attempt a landing at Buie- > west #1. They advised they didn't have electric runway > lights and the winds were to strong for the pots. Jeeps > with lights on were parked at each end of the runway. We > let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the > base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of > the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. When > I dropped out of the nose hatch the wind blew me several > hundred feet from the plane. They picked us up with a > truck. Five of the twenty B-17's landed in Greenland. We > were informed that two sent in S.O.S. signals. One of > the two made it and one was lost. The balance of the > group made Iceland as scheduled. While in Greenland > someone stole my two boxes of candy bars. HA Two days > later we departed for Iceland. We encountered thunder > heads en-route, lost our main oxygen supply and dropped > down to 18,000 feet. Our bail out bottles provided > oxygen for the pilot. co-pilot and navigator. Our > navigator would look at me on the floor and say Bill you > are turning blue again and hand me his mask for a minute > or two. We made Iceland okay then on to Valley , Wales > the next day. The aircraft was left at Valley and we > were trucked to Molesworth arriving on February 1, 1945. > What a trip!....Bill Runnels > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 04:14:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:14:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new Message-ID: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> I've been watching this talk board for about 5 months without actually posting myself. It has been very interesting. In fact one can learn more listening than talking. However now there is something that I would like to say. The pilot of out 427th, Miss. Lace, crew was Fred Mitchell, a great guy. We flew on 31 missions from 4/30/44 to 7/29/44 on which I served as right waist gunner. Shortly after starting, we were assigned three missions to Berlin. This brings up an odd thing,especially near Berlin and on a few other missions we observed a BLACK B-17 way off in the distance at our altitude flying by itself. No doubt it was a plane the Germans captured and was flown to get our altitude. However I have never heard any reference about this since. Also on the afternoon of DDay I viewed a sight that is glued to my memory, the sight of hundreds of ships going into the coast of France in three lines about 15 miles apart. I thanked God that we were up there instead of down there. Also have any of you been to the new DDay museum in New Orleans? We qwent though it last December and it is GREAT. If you haven't been there, make it a must. WR Byers From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 07:16:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 02:16:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <4e.15d4432b.282f80b0@aol.com> bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 13:24:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:24:47 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <20010513122448.VMYX12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Good morning Spec, Valley, Wales does not appear on todays maps. I assume it was some sort of military base. We landed there both going and returning. Hopefully someone out there can help us with this one. Regards, Bill Runnels > bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 13:56:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:56:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BW1-Greenland In-Reply-To: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > A new course was plotted and we had just cleared > the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil > announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make > Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio > contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn > that the field was closed due high surface winds. > ........... We > let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the > base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of > the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. ......... >....... > What a trip!....Bill Runnels > THanks for the story. Sounds like it WAS quite a trip. One of the few things my father told me about his experiences was about having to land at BW1 Greenland on the way back to the States. He told me about flying up the fiord you mentioned, and added that the decision to land had to be made in just a few seconds after making a turn near the end of the fiord, because there was a huge glacier or something at the end of the runway, and if you couldn't land, you couldn't climb over it, and couldn't turn to get out of the fiord. I mentioned BW1 on the other mailing list last year, and a couple of the pilots mentioned that they were told to avoid trying to land at BW-1, and to use that base as a last resort. Also, someone recommended that I read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann. I bought the book, which turned out to be the accounts of a pilot who flew a cargo plane that flew all sorts of things to military bases during the war. I didn't read the whole book, but I did read the 3 chapters that dealt with the trip from Bangor, thru Canada to Greenland and Iceland. It is really worth reading just for those chapters. I think I already referred you to the following, but others might be interested: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bw1-br.html and http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bw1-brR.html Which is a weather map for the trip from BW1 to the US. And also, http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/atlcert.html which was a semi-serious certificate awarded to pilots who made the trip. THanks for the story. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 14:15:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:15:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new In-Reply-To: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> Message-ID: > This brings up an odd thing,especially near Berlin and on a few other > missions we observed a BLACK B-17 way off in the distance at our altitude > flying by itself. No doubt it was a plane the Germans captured and was flown > to get our altitude. However I have never heard any reference about this > since. There was quite a bit of discussion about the black B-17s on another mailing list about a year ago, however I don't think there was any consensus as to what they were used for. I think the suspicion was that they were USAAF planes used for secret missions, as a couple people reported seeing them at their air bases. At the same time, there was a discussion of "carpetbagger" missions, and I am not sure if the two discussions were related. Ie is it possible that these planes were being used to drop supplies to underground or something? Although I guess that type of thing would not have been done in the daytime? It will be interesting to see if anyone in this group has any knowledge of them. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 14:26:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:26:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints In-Reply-To: <20010513122448.VMYX12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > Good morning Spec, Valley, Wales does not appear on > todays maps. I assume it was some sort of military base. > We landed there both going and returning. Hopefully > someone out there can help us with this one. > Regards, Bill Runnels > > bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec > > Valley is on the weather map that I just gave the URL of. Actually the second of the 3 URLs. It doesn't show it in much detail though, since the map shows everything from the French coast to lake Erie. It looks like about 53.1 deg lat, 4.0 deg W long. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 15:16:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:16:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new References: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c0dbb7$588ce260$28184e0c@o3n4f8> Unasked questions go unanswered. Comments and recollections withheld are like a message sealed in a bottle and tossed into the sea. Thank you for sharing your recollections, sir. Every fragment has a place in the puzzle. LGrant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new > I've been watching this talk board for about 5 months without actually > posting myself. It has been very interesting. In fact one can learn more > listening than talking. However now there is something that I would like to > say. . > WR Byers From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 16:19:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:19:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Russian Fighters Message-ID: <16.cb9a97e.28300003@aol.com> --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to tell you gentlemen, I really enjoy reading your accounts during the war. I have read about two accounts of American bombers flying missions over Eastern Europe and being attacked by Russian fighters. I don't remember, but I think some of the Russian fighters were shot down by our gunners. Did any of you encounter any Russian fighters or hear of any encounters? Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to tell you gentlemen, I really enjoy reading your accounts during
the war. I have read about two accounts of American bombers flying missions
over Eastern Europe and being attacked by Russian fighters. I don't remember,
but I think some of the Russian fighters were shot down by our gunners. Did
any of you encounter any Russian fighters or hear of  any encounters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 17:43:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:43:32 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BW1-Greenland Message-ID: <20010513164333.WYRQ12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, regarding Buie West #1, it was easier on the way back during the daylight hours. On the way over it was night time and very difficult especially with the surface winds gusting to 80 mph. Flying up the fjord was an experience and your father was correct in stating you had to turn the corner to the right. This field was for sea planes. The runway came out of the water and ran uphill into the mountain (ice caps). There was no going around. Taking off was an experience also because you ran downhill and made a sharp bank around the corner to the left. Thanks for sharing the other items again. Best regards ..Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 17:55:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:55:55 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <006701c0dbcd$93f41740$d3937ad5@n0i6c5> If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 18:25:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings References: <65.144215c3.282f17c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AFEC38D.C32E656@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Jack Rencher's reply to you was about as articulate as you will find from anyone. He tells it perfectly anent this pilot- copilot thing. As a lead pilot I flew many missions with a Colonel or a General in the right seat who was listed as the copilot, BUT, he was the Air Commander of that particular mission and the airborne unit which he led. For example a Squadron might lead the Group and THAT Group might lead the Wing and THAT Wing might lead the Division and THAT Division might lead the entire strike force. The fellow in THAT lead plane was then the Air Commander of the entire bomber strike force. Taking a page from Lew Lyle's book ... which I did ... I flew all my leads except one in the left seat. Different times I was the Air Commander of the particular unit that I was leading be it a Group, Wing or a Division. My greatest thrill was one mission where OUR lead led the entire strike force. Lew would fly all his missions in the left seat and did the flying as well as doing the duties of Air Commander. As to "logging" pilot time, the FAA (former CAA) rules that a first pilot may log all his time at full rate, ie., hour for hour. A copilot flying in that position may log his time as HALF ... so if he flys two hours he may log ONE as pilot. When in the military a Command Pilot is aboard, HE is the command of that airplane no matter who is flying, but seldom have I ever seen a Command rated pilot USURP the "command" of the pilot in the left seat doing the flying. BUT a Command Pilot may log ALL of his time on ANY airplane on which he is flying. I once flew a B17 from Miami back to Lockbourne AFB (now Rickenbacker) and he flew in the radio compartment the entire trip, but in the log book HIS name was listed. Also he did not usurp ANY duties and I never heard him utter one word the entire flight except when we landed, he thanked us all. I earned my Command pilot wings in the ANG after the war. One requirement for such is that you have 15 years as a rated pilot. The hour requirement is, however (to my way of thinkng) TOO low. 3000 hours to sit for the check ride. TOO Low! For the record I have 33,000 pilot hours all in command, but then I was an airline captain for 35 years! And, I soloed in 1936 in January. I add this little bit to the excellent letter of Jack Rencher. Jack is a fellow I wish I had known more about when we were in the 303rd. He;\'s sort of "my kind of guy" as it were. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, All copilots are pilots. A pilot is a rating. It has nothing to > do with rank. A pilot could be a General or a Sergeant. A copilot is a > position on the crew A pilot could fly as tail gunner. and some of them did > in the lead airplane to judge the formation. It was not unusual for two > rated first pilots to fly on one crew. One could log all the first pilot > time or they could split it. Some squadrons did it one way. Some another. > Usually when a Group flew as lead Group on a mission, there might be a > General Senior Pilot flying as Pilot or copilot. Usually the other pilot was > a very experienced First pilot and maybe a Captain or Major. But he might be > listed as and flying as copilot. One had to be checked out in each type of > plane to fly as first pilot. He might not be checked out in B17s as first > pilot and have 20,000 hours as first pilot in B24s. It was not at all > unusual for a first pilot to fly as copilot. > > I personally had several hundred hours in B17s as first pilot in a > gunnery school and went overseas as a copilot. I had several hundred hours > more first pilot hours in B17s than did my first pilot. I flew about half my > missions as first pilot and half as copilot. On new crews They often left the > copilot home or on another crew and I flew with the new pilot to check him > and his crew out on their first combat mission. On such assignments I > considered myself as the absolute boss and Instructor pilot but I was listed > on the loading lists as copilot. This was so the regular pilot would get the > time as first pilot. Other Squadrons might have done it differently. > > It sounds to me like your Father had a similar job to what I did. Don't > ask me why I went over as a copilot. It is a Military Secret. I am so stupid > I can bounce a B17 equally well from either seat. I often got 4 to 6 bounces > from each landing. Or you might say 4 to 6 landings from each approach. It > didn't matter if the Throttles were in my left hand or my right. I should > have left the gear up. They don't bounce to well on their belly. If someone > else answers you, believe them not me. It won't hurt my feelings. I was a > first pilot in B24s too.(Not in the War) They are harder to bounce > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 19:13:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:13:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Contact Message-ID: <001201c0dbd8$62dacfe0$c99a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone been contacted by Yves Vercoutter of Ligny, France? I know not how he got my address but he sent a nice letter thanking us = for what we did. He has asked me to send him other names so he can tell them how happy he = is,etc. BUT, I am reticent to do this. Any comments?? Kuykendalls RO, Fory ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone been contacted by Yves = Vercoutter of=20 Ligny, France?
I know not how he got my address but = he sent a=20 nice letter thanking us for what we did.
He has asked me to send him other = names so he=20 can tell them how happy he is,etc.
BUT, I am reticent to do this. Any=20 comments??
 
Kuykendalls RO, = Fory
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 23:10:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:10:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings In-Reply-To: <3AFEC38D.C32E656@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Jack Rencher's reply to you was about as articulate as you will find from > anyone. He tells it perfectly anent this pilot- copilot thing. As a lead pilot > I flew many missions with a Colonel or a General in the right seat who was > listed as the copilot, ........ Thanks (and to J.Rencher) for the reply. I'm still a bit confused by the last column in the loading lists, but your reply helped explain a lot. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 03:25:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:25:18 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Moofy, thanks for your help in locating Valley, Wales. The RAF Airfield must be the spot we are looking for. I remember the base was close to the ocean as I picked up a small rock on the beach following our landing. I still have it. Regards, ... Bill Runnels > If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on > the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is > still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. > I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. > Cheers, > Moofy > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 06:04:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:04:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002401c0dc33$4da25160$ef09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Moofy, About six months ago, someone forwarded a map website, English, that had very detailed maps of England. I looked a couple of sites, such as Bassingbourn, Thorpe-Abbots, lots of London, etc., and they were fantastic. I can't find the site under my 'favorites' folder anymore. Do you have any idea what it might be, if you've seen it before? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Moofy, thanks for your help in locating Valley, Wales. > The RAF Airfield must be the spot we are looking for. I > remember the base was close to the ocean as I picked up > a small rock on the beach following our landing. I still > have it. > Regards, ... Bill Runnels > > If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on > > the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is > > still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. > > I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. > > Cheers, > > Moofy > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 15:53:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:53:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> <002401c0dc33$4da25160$ef09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <001601c0dc85$94ab76c0$dab34d0c@o3n4f8> I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that may be helpful to all: http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Hi Moofy, > About six months ago, someone forwarded a map website, English, that had > very detailed maps of England. I looked a couple of sites, such as > Bassingbourn, Thorpe-Abbots, lots of London, etc., and they were fantastic. > I can't find the site under my 'favorites' folder anymore. Do you have any > idea what it might be, if you've seen it before? > Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 19:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:17:15 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <20010514181715.FOTA2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, you are always welcome. Thanks for the info on Valley, Wales. With this data we can pinpoint the spot. I knew it had to be somewhere. HA Thanks again, .... Bill runnels > I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that > may be helpful to all: > http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an > outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he > is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. > > > > > > > . > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 18:53:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514181715.FOTA2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002301c0dc9e$d1df7500$e08e4d0c@o3n4f8> Cheers, Bill. I hope Tom can help. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Lloyd, you are always welcome. Thanks for the info on > Valley, Wales. With this data we can pinpoint the spot. > I knew it had to be somewhere. HA > Thanks again, .... Bill runnels > > I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that > > may be helpful to all: > > http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an > > outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he > > is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 21:32:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:32:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: thanks moofy. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 22:12:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:12:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley Message-ID: <005d01c0dcba$ad3a97e0$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> You are very welcome Bill. Your memory serves you well, RAF Valley is very near the sea, and there are some beautiful beaches on Anglesey. I think they do alot of Air, Sea Rescue from RAF Valley. Many years ago, our eldest son was 'aircraft mad', and as a special treat we took all the children to an Air Show at RAF Valley. In those days, there was just one main road that ran right through Anglesey to Holyhead, and it was chocka block with cars going to the Air Show. With five children in the back of a car all hyped up, going at a 'snails pace' on a hot Summers day, I was regretting making the journey. Of course eventually we got to the airfield. It turned out to be one of the most exciting days I had ever spent. Apart from when a Harrier Jump Jet took off, then hovered very near to where we were standing. I nearly had heart failure at the noise it made ! but I could not take my eye's off it, as it was a fascinating sight. Somewhere in the house, we have photo's of each of the children sat in the cockpit of a single engine plane wearing a helmet. How we laughed when we saw the photo of our youngest child Lynn, all we could see was the helmet !!LOL All these years later, it is 'Mum' who is mad on WW2 aircraft, and is feeling very excited that Pete and I will be going to East Anglia, and will visit Duxford Air Museum in a little over 6 weeks. Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 22:14:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:14:43 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy Message-ID: <005e01c0dcba$e5e6a660$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> I see Lloyd has found the map website you were referring to Gordy, I agree with you, it is a very good website to visit. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 21:42:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:42:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy References: <005e01c0dcba$e5e6a660$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <002a01c0dcb6$70ccc340$97194e0c@o3n4f8> I hope this was the website referred to. Even if it is not, I reiterate; I can say nothing other than praise for Tom Feise. He is the son of a German soldier ,and was only a little boy during the war. Tom is absolutely genuine, and now lives in England, his adopted Country. If you visit the website, I encourage you to read "his story". And , no, this reference is not a plug . Ask Tom for some help , and you'll find out why I am bragging on him. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy > I see Lloyd has found the map website you were referring to Gordy, I agree > with you, > it is a very good website to visit. > Cheers, > Moofy > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 23:35:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:35:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <70.aa87515.2831b7ad@aol.com> thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 23:41:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:41:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: bill well placed comments. grats on your experiences that to be sure many passengers have been thankful. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 15 01:20:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:20:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #271 - msg.# 3/W.Heller -flyer ratings Message-ID: <13.15a5e8c6.2831d061@aol.com> --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Of my 53 missions, the one that stands out in my mind the most was the mission of 14 October, 1943. My former Ist pilot, Ist Lt. Jokerst was leading the the 360th high squadron. The 303rd bomb group was the high group. I was flying the # 2 position while Heller had the # 3 position. Ist Lt. Jokerst let me land the B-17 many times from the right seat, he was always # 1 in my book and every Thursday I wear my hat with the Black Thursday logo on it. Most see it and look at me wondering what it means as I have been asked many times. I had joined Jokerst crew as a co-pilot in Walla Walla. Bill Bergeron --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      Of my 53 missions, the one that stands out in my mind the most was the
mission of 14 October, 1943. My former Ist pilot, Ist Lt. Jokerst was leading
the the 360th high squadron. The 303rd bomb group was the high group. I was
flying the # 2 position while Heller had the # 3 position. Ist Lt. Jokerst
let me land the B-17 many times from the right seat, he was always # 1 in my
book and every Thursday I wear my hat with the Black Thursday logo on it.
Most see it and look at me wondering what it means as I have been asked many
times. I had joined Jokerst crew as a co-pilot in Walla Walla.
Bill Bergeron --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 15 03:25:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:25:39 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley Message-ID: <20010515022540.LLLG8745.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Moofy, your air show experience with family at RAF Valley sounds like a fun day. I do remember the beautiful beaches. It was this small town boy's first view of that part of the world. We had a rough crossing but the day we landed at Valley was sunny and bright. It was late January, 1945. We also landed there on the way back in June. We really appreciate your interest in aviation. Hope you and Pete have a terrific time at Duxford in June. Best regards, Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 00:13:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:13:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings Message-ID: Among my father's things were several RAF wings, some of which were pins and some patches (for example see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/rafpatch.jpg ) . I assume that he probably just collected these as mementos, and I'm not even sure that they are old. I was just looking at one of them today, a small pin similar to the pin in the image above, and I noticed that under the "RAF", it said "B W R S" , and I was just curious what that could signify. I'm sure they were probably just collector's items, with no personal significance, but I was curious about their meaning. I talked to one person who found a similar wing with a NZ (I think) which was a New Zealand, but I couldn't think of a British colony that B W R S would stand for. Any ideas? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 00:39:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:39:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson Message-ID: I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody familiar with this? I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. Thanks for you help. Jay Primavera And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. Go figure. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 01:41:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:41:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B016A44.2705.C366A5@localhost> > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently > unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. > Go figure. Thanks, Jay. We try to stay "on topic" here. If one would read the archived messages, they could write a book. Let me add my thanks to everyone for making this such a valuable and interesting forum. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:31:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:31:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: <3B016A44.2705.C366A5@localhost> Message-ID: <004501c0dda7$f535e200$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, thanks. "We" stray occassionally, but not for long. Your generosity and tolerance is appreciated and respected in those rare instances. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > > > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently > > unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. > > Go figure. > > Thanks, Jay. We try to stay "on topic" here. If one would read the > archived messages, they could write a book. Let me add my > thanks to everyone for making this such a valuable and interesting > forum. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:44:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:44:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: Message-ID: <006701c0dda9$c8d83d00$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> We owe a great deal to Gary for providing the venue, as much to the veterans who unselfishly contribute their memories and recollections, and a great deal to the sons and daughters, brothers and sisters and all who are dedicated to the preservation of those memories, and the protection of this magnificent History. ( There I go again. You get tthe drift tho...) Thanks. L.G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former > agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody > familiar with this? > > I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. > > Thanks for you help. > > Jay Primavera > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently unsubscribed > to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. Go figure. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:52:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:52:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings References: Message-ID: <006f01c0ddaa$e47c3ce0$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, Those are in unbelievably good condition. They ( the ones in the photo) look like normal pilot wings, but I am scrounging a lot of memory. We were stationed at an RAF base in Northern England in the late 50's. Hope someone has a proper answer; you have my curiousity up as well. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings > > Among my father's things were several RAF wings, some of > which were pins and some patches (for example see > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/rafpatch.jpg ) . > I assume that he probably just collected these as mementos, > and I'm not even sure that they are old. > I was just looking at one of them today, a small pin similar to the > pin in the image above, and I noticed that under the "RAF", it said > "B W R S" , and I was just curious what that could signify. > I'm sure they were probably just collector's items, with no personal > significance, but I was curious about their meaning. I talked to one > person who found a similar wing with a NZ (I think) which was a > New Zealand, but I couldn't think of a British colony that B W R S > would stand for. > Any ideas? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 07:45:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:45:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: Message-ID: <00c101c0ddd3$c511f420$5c09f4cc@e0y0k4> If you haven't already, try contacting Helga Radau at : archiv@stadt-barth.de or helga.radau@web.de She is one of the best sources on the camps you will find. I know the camps fairly well, and have a few good sources, but I think you might want to double check the spelling of that river. If not, maybe Helga will be able to sort it out through name of the town. You can use my name if you like. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former > agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody > familiar with this? > > I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. > > Thanks for you help. > > Jay Primavera From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 14:54:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:54:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo Message-ID: Hi list, I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no names with the photo. Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 15:33:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings In-Reply-To: <006f01c0ddaa$e47c3ce0$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Bill, Those are in unbelievably good condition. As I said, I'm not sure if they were obtained while at Molesworth, or if he picked them up years later, but they were in with his old medals and captains bars, etc, etc. > They ( the ones in the > photo) look like normal pilot wings, but I am scrounging a lot of memory. > We were stationed at an RAF base in Northern England in the late 50's. > Hope someone has a proper answer; you have my curiousity up as well. Just for reference, I scanned the wings in question. The image is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/rafwing3.jpg Looks big in picture, but it is only about 3/4" long. BTW, I have a link to some other patches and medals and things that were in with my father's things at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/patches2.html If I have mis-identified anything in these images, please let me know. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 15:51:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:51:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hi list, > I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, > NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell > from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no > names with the photo. Can you scan it into a JPG? If so, maybe Gary can put it on his temporary page. If not, I can put it up on my page, at least temporarily (I'm a bit careful of the disk space since I'm borrowing it). Since this subject (ie training classes) came up, I was also wondering whether anyone in this group went through Class 42-D ("D" is for April) at the Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center at Lubbock Texas (and several nearby bases in Texas and Oklahoma were apparently used). I have several pictures taken at this school, many of which have names on the back. One of the pictures, which is on my web page shows some people near a training plane, and it was dated Dec 8, 1941. Ie the day after Pearl Harbor, and has notes on it about getting those Japs, etc. I have some other pictures taken between 1942 and 1944 at Gunter Field, Ala, and Bainbridge Field in Georgia, in case anyone went to those fields for training. My father also was at Hendricks field in Sebring, Florida, but I don't think I have any pictures of that. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 16:04:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:04:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo Message-ID: Bill, That is a good idea and I can certainly give it a try. Gary, Should I sent it to this email address or a separate one? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bill Jones [SMTP:wejones@megalink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 9:52 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Class photo > Hi list, > I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, > NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell > from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no > names with the photo. Can you scan it into a JPG? If so, maybe Gary can put it on his temporary page. If not, I can put it up on my page, at least temporarily (I'm a bit careful of the disk space since I'm borrowing it). Since this subject (ie training classes) came up, I was also wondering whether anyone in this group went through Class 42-D ("D" is for April) at the Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center at Lubbock Texas (and several nearby bases in Texas and Oklahoma were apparently used). I have several pictures taken at this school, many of which have names on the back. One of the pictures, which is on my web page shows some people near a training plane, and it was dated Dec 8, 1941. Ie the day after Pearl Harbor, and has notes on it about getting those Japs, etc. I have some other pictures taken between 1942 and 1944 at Gunter Field, Ala, and Bainbridge Field in Georgia, in case anyone went to those fields for training. My father also was at Hendricks field in Sebring, Florida, but I don't think I have any pictures of that. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 17:35:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:35:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0249EC.25314.982209@localhost> > Gary, > Should I sent it to this email address or a separate one? > send it to glm@xmission.com - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 19:34:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Royal family visit photo Message-ID: I just uploaded a photo of the Royal family visit to Molesworth. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/royvis.html It shows several 303rd personnel as well as the Royal family. Not sure if anyone is recognizable. Unfortunately, the airmen in the flying suits have their backs to the camera. However there are some ranking officers shown who should be recognizable to someone. I think this must be the same July 44 visit as shown in the picture on the 303rdbga site, ie http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-royalty.html since the clothing worn by the Queen and Queen to be is the same. Can anyone identify anyone? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 21:18:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:18:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures Message-ID: I previously posted the URLs of some pictures taken on the Continental Express flights. I've added a few new ones that I just uploaded, and combined them onto a single page. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp.html If anyone recognizes any of the target areas, let me know and I'll label them. I think there are still a couple other's that I've already uploaded, but I haven't gotten them onto the new page yet. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 21:26:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:26:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Royal family visit photo References: Message-ID: <3B02E262.E65CAA2B@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Col. Kermit "Bow-Ur-Neck" Stevens, the Group Commander, is the escort. Still alive at 92, Col. Stevens spent my 79th birthday with me on a two-day house-guest visit two years ago. He's doing well in Medford, OR. I speak with him occasionally on the horn. Cheers! WCH Bill Jones wrote: > I just uploaded a photo of the Royal family visit to Molesworth. > http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/royvis.html > It shows several 303rd personnel as well as the Royal family. Not > sure if anyone is recognizable. Unfortunately, the airmen in the > flying suits have their backs to the camera. However there are > some ranking officers shown who should be recognizable to > someone. > I think this must be the same July 44 visit as shown in the picture > on the 303rdbga site, ie http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-royalty.html > since the clothing worn by the Queen and Queen to be is the > same. > Can anyone identify anyone? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 22:07:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:07:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c0de4c$3858d340$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Bill, I'll bet your roll of film is entirely of Paris. If you have the pictures in order of when taken, then you have Montmartre in the second one and the Eiffel Tower in the last...and the Seine running through the entire sequence. Lois -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 4:19 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures I previously posted the URLs of some pictures taken on the Continental Express flights. I've added a few new ones that I just uploaded, and combined them onto a single page. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp.html If anyone recognizes any of the target areas, let me know and I'll label them. I think there are still a couple other's that I've already uploaded, but I haven't gotten them onto the new page yet. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 22:38:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:38:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures In-Reply-To: <000201c0de4c$3858d340$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> References: Message-ID: > Bill, I'll bet your roll of film is entirely of Paris. If you have the > pictures in order of when taken, then you have Montmartre in the second one > and the Eiffel Tower in the last...and the Seine running through the entire > sequence. Thanks! I'll have to check the order on the negative spool. I didn't put them on the web page in any order unfortunately. BTW, is http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/cont-exp5.jpg in Paris too? That building looks familiar. Not a very good picture though. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 03:40:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:40:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] continental Express Message-ID: <000501c0de7a$b3a0a540$4bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Bill Jones----If I can get this!@#$%^&*()___)(*&^%$#@ scanner to work for me I'll see if I can get 3-4 to you. I took these myself with a Kodak 620. Had them enlarged to 5 X 7 and put them in my scrap book. German POWs near Bonn---Hesseldorf bridge near Koln--- Koln Cathederal --- Essen Works with a flak tower in the foreground & the Arc de Triumphe from alongside the bombadiers seat. [shows chin turret controls.7 & the round "clean off window"] Don't hold your breath. I have saved a bunch of pictures but have lost that knowledge ---- I'M THINKIN'!!!. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 03:17:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:17:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Feather Merchant Message-ID: <001f01c0de77$901f0380$67914d0c@o3n4f8> What does this term imply, "Feather Merchant" ? I remember my father using it and he always seemed to use the term derisively. I ran across the term again this evening on a WW II web site. Was a feather merchant someone who did not serve in the military during the war? Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 04:40:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:40:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton Message-ID: Gordy; Thanks for sending me to Helga. I've sent her letters and I am eagerly awaiting her reply. Hopefully she will be able to help me find Obermasfeld. I've found the town and maybe the river but nothing else. Best to all Jay From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 05:17:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:17:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton References: Message-ID: <000f01c0de88$3c4a6180$1d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Anytime, Jay. My pleasure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:40 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton > Gordy; > > Thanks for sending me to Helga. I've sent her letters and I am eagerly > awaiting her reply. Hopefully she will be able to help me find Obermasfeld. > I've found the town and maybe the river but nothing else. > > Best to all > > Jay > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 04:22:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 05:22:04 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please remove.... Message-ID: <3B0343DB.D90F4FC3@newsfactory.net> Gary, please remove me from the list for I´ll be out of country for a while due to business. Thank you, Uwe From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 06:36:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:36:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: fwd tape References: <9e.147cfd05.2834c022@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b101c0de93$47014c00$67914d0c@o3n4f8> Best regards, and thanks, Will. ( the tape he was to have gotten from W. Maher, jr. never showed up. He has been waiting for a long time. The other two tapes have each been to six different addresses in the same span of time. Lloyd. (perhaps it got lost in the mail. Been known to happen). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:48 AM Subject: Re: fwd tape > Message received O.K.... will forward tape tomorrow to Bill Dallas in Austin. > > Will > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 16:19:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:19:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brian McQuire re. MW tape Message-ID: <004a01c0dee4$b9f62540$04914d0c@o3n4f8> Brian, I tried to e-mail you , but I guess I didn't put the right postage on the envelope and it was returned. You expressed an interest in seeing the Molesworth Tape. If you have not been able to get it, please contact me: palidin@worldnet.att.net. Regards, Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 18:34:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:34:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Pin (Bill) Message-ID: <000d01c0def7$9f7e0b20$c38d7ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Bill, I sent a copy of the RAF pin you were enquiring about to a contact gentleman who has a wonderful RAF Web Site, and this was his answer.... Cheers, Moofy The item is a sweetheart pin. Back in the 1930's the officers had these made for their mess dress kits and they became a gift of affection to special girlfriends. As WWII progressed all ranks had them made as gifts. They were usually produced by the Instrument Section which commonly had conscripted watchmakers working as "Instrument Tiffies". I'm not sure of the significance of BWRS on the particular item but it was common to find either Station Names or the initials of both parties in the enamel. Regards Ross From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 20:38:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:38:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FEATHER MERCHANT. Message-ID: <000501c0df08$f0f515a0$52bb9ace@mjpmtman> LLOYD-- A "feather merchant" is a hard working person who works no harder than lifting a feather.! Normally you would be refering to a civilian that worked on some job on base. I was stationed at Pendeleton Oregon from Aug 9 to September 4 (I think) and it was there that I first heard the expression. There was an engine overhaul "plant" [Allisons I think} with EMs working alongside "feather merchants" with the EMs drawing much less pay. One of the Sgts had a civilian as a foreman. Yes it was meant to be derogatory. MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 22:23:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:23:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: First off, I want to say that I think the CDROM is great. Hardly a day goes by that I haven't used it. But I just happened to notice that the artwork on the cover seems to have an error. The plane shown, ie 44-6517 PU-F should have a "3" above the "triangle C" instead of the "2" shown on the cover (ie 2 would signify 359th while 3 signifies 360th). Better than the 303rd refrigerator magnets though, which are from another bomb group. :-) Again, I really love the CDROM. It's just that I've been staring at the cover, and something just didn't look right, and I finally figured out what it was. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 02:50:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John Culpin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:50:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please remove me from your mailing list Message-ID: <002801c0df3c$dd2fc0e0$54249718@oemcomputer.cpe.charter-ne.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please remove me from your mailing list. John Culpin ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please remove me from your mailing=20 list.
 
John = Culpin
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 13:07:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:07:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: My tattered, stiffened A=2 which hangs in my office closet is reference for the "2" atop the triangle C. The jacket was one o f many I painted in the Molesworth barracks. No way to go back and check, but painted it as I saw it and umpteen years later did the CD illustration to match. Sorry about that. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 14:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:21:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My tattered, stiffened A=2 which hangs in my office closet is reference for > the "2" atop the triangle C. The jacket was one o f many I painted in the > Molesworth barracks. No way to go back and check, but painted it as I saw it > and umpteen years later did the CD illustration to match. Sorry about that. > Cheers, Bob Hand Sorry! Maybe it wasn't a mistake then, ie the mistake was mine. I didn't realize that you did the artwork, I just assumed that the CD duplication company had done it, and misread the number. I should have guessed, since I knew you flew that plane. Now I'm confused. All the pictures of 303rd planes I've seen, which were taken in the last 9 months of the war, had a "2" for the 359th, a "3" for the 360th, and a "4" for the 427th. I'm not sure about the 358th planes. I think they didn't have any number, but I'm not sure. Perhaps this wasn't always the case though. I know 6517 was your plane, so if you painted that from the original, perhaps that number had a meaning different than I had assumed. I don't have a good picture of 6517 where I can see the number clearly, so I was just assuming that it would be like the others I've seen. You would certainly know better than me. Sorry. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 19:21:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:21:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: <16.d0a1026.2836c217@aol.com> My curiosity has now taken flight....somewhere in the groaning table of photos, mementos and books I have the only photo taken of 517, shot by Lt.Orenstein, taken from the rear of the aircraft of the looming rudder. Now I've GOT to locate that pic! My jacket has had new cuffs and waistband, but the lining is disintegrating and the leather really tough. It still has the large triangle "C" on the back but the white triangle center has worn away...the "C" is barely visible against the leather. But lo and behold, the "2" is still prominent, as is the 46517 and "HELL'S ANGELS". I just returned from Borders, where I picked up the May issue of FLYPAST, and it has a giant pullout of UK wartime air fields and it does show Valley, Wales (Anglesey)....even though you'll have to hunt for it. Also featured is AT-6 in flight spread and the UK warbird survey.....quite an interesting issue. ($7.95) Have a good weekend. Cheers, Bob Hand (This should end the mystery of where the heck Valley Wales is.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 03:26:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:26:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off Message-ID: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? AND, at what point, prior to reaching "hostile" air space was this unity among the various Groups achieved ? Who was responsible for formation integrity? ( ie. keeping it closed up and tight)? Was this responsibility delegated to Sq. commanders , or....? Every bit of it sounds as dangerous as H**L given the weather , visibility, and proximity of the various bases launching aircraft at the same time. The fact that there were not many more accidents during initiation is either a tribute to the training Pilots recieved, or the exceptional skill and intelligence of the Pilots involved. Perhaps, a combination of both. Thanks to anyone that cares to reply to this. GNT. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 05:12:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:12:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off Message-ID: <4b.bcf6c36.28374ca9@aol.com> some times it was really close and scattering as units tried to get to their flare signal in forming. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 04:26:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:26:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <4b.bcf6c36.28374ca9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001101c0e013$83a4f400$2d914d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks , Spec. That is part of what I am trying to grasp. If forgot to ask about flare signals. Like everything else, this topic has probably been chewed to death also. I appreciate your answer. GNT. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off > some times it was really close and scattering as units tried to get to their > flare signal in forming. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 05:45:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:45:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton Message-ID: Gordy: Thanks so much for sending me to Helga Radau! She wasn't able to help, but she forwarded my letter to Roland Geiger who was able to help me find obermasfeld and even sent some rough photos! Can't thank you enough for helping me find the pow camp my father was in. All my best. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 06:03:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:03:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question Message-ID: With Memorial Day coming up soon, I have a question. Not only did Dad fly = his 35 missions with the 303rd but he was at Hickam Field on December 7, = 1941. Are there any statistics only how many 303rd members are also Pearl = Harbor Survivors? Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 07:12:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:12:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton References: Message-ID: <005401c0e02a$9f864900$7309f4cc@e0y0k4> My pleasure. Roland has been helpful to me in the past, as well. I am glad he was able to assist you. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton > Gordy: > > Thanks so much for sending me to Helga Radau! She wasn't able to help, but > she forwarded my letter to Roland Geiger who was able to help me find > obermasfeld and even sent some rough photos! Can't thank you enough for > helping me find the pow camp my father was in. > > All my best. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 09:30:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:30:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> Grant ... Though you may get varied ideas to your quest, here is one: Each plane took off in the order depicted in the briefeing. They assembled as a Squadron over a certain beacon. At a stipulated time, when all three Squadrons were assembled, into a Group, they left this beacon at a stipulated time and joined two other Groups at a stipulated time and place. This now was a Wing. This Wing thus assembled, proceeded to a point which was stipulated and a time which was stipulated, and thus joined one or more Wings to make up a Division. There was one or more Divisions in the strike force which made up the bomber column. Each Division took its splace in this column at a stiputaed time and place. As to keeping good formation, that was the job of each unit leader and also with some Squadrons it was constantly drummed into each pilot during skull sessions and practice formation flying. Good formation was the difference between a rough mission and a reasonbly safe and normal mission ... the word "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > AND, at what point, prior to reaching "hostile" air space was this unity > among the various Groups achieved ? > Who was responsible for formation integrity? ( ie. keeping it closed up and > tight)? Was this responsibility delegated to Sq. commanders , or....? > Every bit of it sounds as dangerous as H**L given the weather , visibility, > and proximity of the various bases launching aircraft at the same time. The > fact that there were not many more accidents during initiation is either a > tribute to the training Pilots recieved, or the exceptional skill and > intelligence of the Pilots involved. Perhaps, a combination of both. > Thanks to anyone that cares to reply to this. GNT. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 13:56:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where is this? Message-ID: In among the pictures I have of the Continental Express, there is a picture of an unknown location. It is a picture of what looks like an Army troop convoy, all happy, perhaps after VE-day. It looks more like what I would expect for somewhere on the continent, but I thought that perhaps it might have been somehow related to the shutdown of Molesworth? As usual, I have no idea of where or when the picture was taken. I haven't checked to see if this is on the same negative roll as the C.E. pictures. Anyway, the picture is really poor quality, somewhat out of focus and scratched, but I thought it would be of interest if it was of the Molesworth area, so I was curious whether anyone recognized the scene or area? The picture is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/convoy.jpg ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 14:11:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:11:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher In your reply you stated that the formation depicted in that picture looked pretty loose. I contacted Mr. Mort Robinson at the 94thBGA Associates and he stated that the Group shown in that photo might have been in the process of forming up over the English coastline which would explain the loose formation. It occurred to me that this whole affair must have been a planning and logistics nightmare. You answer is a big help for me in acheiving some insight in respect to how these massive deployments were coordinated to work. Best regards,sir, Lloyd Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:30 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off.. the word > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 17:11:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off In-Reply-To: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? Since you already got a couple good responses, I thought I'd drift a little away from the topic of your question. You talk above, about them sending more than one group. This is something that really impressed me in my reading through the old records, ie how very different it must have been early in the war vs later in the war with respect to the sheer numbers of planes involved. I know we have a couple people in the group here who flew in both phases, so they would be best to describe this, but I was reading about a couple of the very early missions, ie spring 43, and it seemed like back then, they might only send 3 bomb groups to a target, and maybe another group or two as a diversion. Ie if I am calculating right, 3 bomb groups might only be something like 60 planes going to the target. I am somewhat unclear about what constituted the 8th AF back in the early part of the war, but it is my impression that the "divisions" were roughly equivalent to the "wings" later in the war, and that the transition between the two organizations involved something called "provisional combat wings". Later in the war, as the groups grew in size and in numbers, even the combat wings put up more planes than the entire early divisions. When I was at NARA last year, I copied the list of groups that the 1st Division sent out on one typical mission late in the war, ie: 1A 381 1B 91 41A 303 41B 379 41C 384 41D 379,384,398 Composite 94A 457 94B 401 94C 351 40A 305 40B 306 40C 92 The time spacing between groups was 1 minute, and the odd numbered groups went to an altitude of 24,500' and the even numbered groups went to 26,000'. Ie the above represents 12 groups, each of which had 3 squadron formations of approximately 13 planes, ie 12x39= 468 planes, all going to the same target. Ie almost an order of magnitude greater in numbers than in the early phases of the war. And that was just 1 division. I think that I read a passage in Mr Gobrechts book about them sending out over 2000 planes once in Dec 44. Back to the original question though, it would seem to me that it would be much more complicated co-ordinating a stream of 500 planes than a cluster of 60 planes, so I would think that there would be different answers for early in the war vs late in the war. Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied fighters? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 17:21:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:21:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: Message-ID: <003301c0e07f$c57f5a20$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Jones. Thanks for adding another dimension to my question. The points that you bring up are similar in scope to what I have been pondering. No doubt there are some exellent books on the subject, yet it is always of great interest to read the personal perspectives of the men here who flew the actual missions. Another thought that has occurred to me is the effectiveness of a tight formation vs. the liabilities (ie. mid-air collisions). I have read several accounts of bombers that were badly hit colliding with other planes in the formation, thus causing multiple downings, or, planes in a lower echelon being hit , or near-missed from bombs released by planes at a higher altiude in the formation. I would think that pilots were pretty well "wrung out" after six to nine hours of this type of flying, then add to that the responsibilties that were adjunct to flying the aircraft. I wonder where these questions will lead us. Regards, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-offhow did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > >... Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes > that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that > would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also > what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would > defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think > that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but > when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would > seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to > pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have > time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what > extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak > defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers > involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied > fighters? > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 20:25:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:25:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B06C8A6.BA6EF3B8@attglobal.net> Grant ... Anent your reply on the formation shown in the picture .... if THAT formation was "forming" up over the Channel, then THAT formation was not very well led, nor, instructed. You were in good formation from the time you left your first assembly point If, that is, you were a good outfit. My reply to you had nothing to do with that picture you mentioned. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this > question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher > In your reply you stated that the formation depicted in that picture looked > pretty loose. I contacted Mr. Mort Robinson at the 94thBGA Associates and > he stated that the Group shown in that photo might have been in the process > of forming up over the English coastline which would explain the loose > formation. It occurred to me that this whole affair must have been a > planning and logistics nightmare. You answer is a big help for me in > acheiving some insight in respect to how these massive deployments were > coordinated to work. Best regards,sir, Lloyd Grant > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:30 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off.. the word > > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > > > Cheers! > > > > Bill Heller > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 20:29:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:29:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: Message-ID: <3B06C9AE.43699F6B@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... During the war the title of Wing vs. Division may have changed from time to time. However, THREE Squadrons made up an airborne Group and THREE Groups made up an airborne Wing, and ONE or more Wings made up a Division. This remained up to the end of the war when we finally defeated Germany. I can only speak for a period from mid 1943 until the END of the war, for that was when I was there. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > > Since you already got a couple good responses, I thought I'd drift > a little away from the topic of your question. You talk above, about > them sending more than one group. This is something that really > impressed me in my reading through the old records, ie how very > different it must have been early in the war vs later in the war with > respect to the sheer numbers of planes involved. I know we have a > couple people in the group here who flew in both phases, so they > would be best to describe this, but I was reading about a couple of > the very early missions, ie spring 43, and it seemed like back then, > they might only send 3 bomb groups to a target, and maybe > another group or two as a diversion. Ie if I am calculating right, 3 > bomb groups might only be something like 60 planes going to the > target. > I am somewhat unclear about what constituted the 8th AF back > in the early part of the war, but it is my impression that the > "divisions" were roughly equivalent to the "wings" later in the war, > and that the transition between the two organizations involved > something called "provisional combat wings". > Later in the war, as the groups grew in size and in numbers, > even the combat wings put up more planes than the entire early > divisions. When I was at NARA last year, I copied the list of > groups that the 1st Division sent out on one typical mission late in > the war, ie: > > 1A 381 > 1B 91 > 41A 303 > 41B 379 > 41C 384 > 41D 379,384,398 Composite > 94A 457 > 94B 401 > 94C 351 > 40A 305 > 40B 306 > 40C 92 > > The time spacing between groups was 1 minute, and the odd > numbered groups went to an altitude of 24,500' and the even > numbered groups went to 26,000'. > Ie the above represents 12 groups, each of which had 3 squadron > formations of approximately 13 planes, ie 12x39= 468 planes, all > going to the same target. Ie almost an order of magnitude greater > in numbers than in the early phases of the war. And that was just > 1 division. I think that I read a passage in Mr Gobrechts book > about them sending out over 2000 planes once in Dec 44. > > Back to the original question though, it would seem to me that it > would be much more complicated co-ordinating a stream of 500 > planes than a cluster of 60 planes, so I would think that there > would be different answers for early in the war vs late in the war. > > Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes > that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that > would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also > what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would > defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think > that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but > when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would > seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to > pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have > time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what > extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak > defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers > involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied > fighters? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 22:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:54:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off In-Reply-To: <3B06C9AE.43699F6B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > During the war the title of Wing vs. Division may have changed from time to > time. However, THREE Squadrons made up an airborne Group and THREE Groups made > up an airborne Wing, and ONE or more Wings made up a Division. This remained up > to the end of the war when we finally defeated Germany. I can only speak for a > period from mid 1943 until the END of the war, for that was when I was there. Thanks. I was wrong in my comment about early divisions and wings. I think what I was referring to was from reading in Mr Gobrechts book, it looked like back in Dec 42, the 303rd apparently was one of 4 BGs in the 1st Bomb Wing, and it looks like there were only 2 or 3 bomb wings in the 8th BC at that time, and it didn't seem like there were divisions then, ie if I understand what I was reading,: 8th Bomb Command ^ 1st BW 2nd BW ? ^ ^ 91st 306th 303rd 305th ? Then it looks like in the spring of 43, the same groups slightly re- organized into provisional combat wings, ie 8th Bomb Command ^ 1st BW 2nd BW ^ 101stPBW 102nd PBW ^ ^ 91st 306th 303rd 305th Then, later, it seems like each provisional combat wings must have split up into 2 CBWs, so that it eventually looked something like: 8th Air Force ^ 1st B.Division 2nd B.Division 3rd B.Division ^ 1st CBW 40th CBW 41st CBW 94th CBW ^ ^ ^ ^ 91, 381,398 305,306,92 303rd, 379th, 384th 351,401,457 (I'm sure I have clobbered the names of these various organizations, please correct me.) Ie, the organization kept growing and growing, but it looked to me like the original 1st BW must have evolved into the 1st Bomb Division, and the provisional bomb wings must have evolved into the 4 CBWs? Or, perhaps they sort of inserted a couple levels of organization in there, but originally, the organization that reported to the 8th BC was the wing, but later, it was the division, and the CBWs that reported to the divisions were bigger than the original wings that reported to the 8th BC. If the above looks confused, it is because I am confused. It just looked to me like the provisional combat wings were a temporary way of transitioning between the old organization and the new organization, but I have no idea of whether this was actually the case, and have no idea of whether the new organizations were made out of the old organizations, and grew from the bottom, or if new management was inserted between the old organizations and grew from the middle so to speak. But the main thing I was commenting on was the difference in size between the 8thAF at the end of 1942 vs spring of 1945. It just kept growing and growing. Anyway, this is all very interesting, and I'm learning more each day. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 23:15:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:15:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day Message-ID: I've had a good day. I just received a very nice letter from William Crawford, the pilot with whom my father flew on his first checkout mission. He sent me a copy of an account he had written up about the mission. It was very interesting to me because I had known that my father had been hit by a piece of flak, but knew nothing about the circumstances. The account I received today told the whole story about how he was hit, and how the engineer patched him up with the first aid kit, etc. Apparently it was only a minor injury, but it was really quite special to read about it. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 01:11:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:11:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B06C8A6.BA6EF3B8@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701c0e0c1$73177140$d5b34d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. First, I suspected that the formation in the picture was not "forming up" ( if so why would they have been flying inland?). Second, I know your reply had nothing to do with the picture. The information in your reply to my original question, was ( as usual) direct, incisive, informative, and helpful to my understanding. I think Mr. Jones , and others will agree. Thank you, Bill Heller. You are always there when we need to understand ; and whenever you comment, we are never left wanting. Regards, sir. Lloyd Grant. Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off > Grant ... > > Anent your reply on the formation shown in the picture .... if THAT formation > was "forming" up over the Channel, then THAT formation was not very well led, > nor, instructed. You were in good formation from the time you left your first > assembly point If, that is, you were a good outfit. > > My reply to you had nothing to do with that picture you mentioned. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this > > question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher > > > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 04:12:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:12:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp Message-ID: <3B06D39A.4794.1AE773F@localhost> { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}Part of our planned POW page will be the Wartime Log= of Lt. Harold W. "Hal" Gunn. I just finished transcribing Hal's play-by-play of the POWs liberation from Moosburg. I thought you would find it interesting - you can almost feel it.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------- Account of the Liberation of the POW Camp at Moosburg, Germany by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, POW #1613. Transcribed from his Wartime Log by Gary L. Moncur: --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------- Sunday - April 29, 1945 10:04 The time we have been waiting so long for has finally come. I am trying to record the events while sitting in rather cramped quarters in our barracks kitchen, the only place with brick walls. Bullets are flying, the chatter of machine gun fire and spasmodic rifle reports, punctuated by the heavy explosions of large guns makes a fitting background for our long anticipated liberation. The =93Goons=94 are making a last stand at our gates. Rumors are flying as thick as the bullets. Two men have been victims of stray bullets. The whole camp has been taken in by the rumors. Inadequate causes and long stored up feelings makes the moment a dramatic one. Low flying Mustangs and Thunderbolts have been doing their bit to make it a =93good show.=94 Tanks have been sighted on the hill close by and are believed to be ours. Many =93Kriegies=94 are eating what we hope to be our last =93Kriegie=94 meal behind barbed wires. A heavy explosion just brought down a spray of plaster from the ceiling and walls. Air Force officers are receiving a lasting impression of a ground battle and feeling very much out of place. I am now crouched in the abort where many Kriegies have taken shelter. The steady hum of excited conversation reflects the pitch of the moment. We are all nervous, but our morale is very high. There is no sign of panic. Smiles are worn by all, and in spite of the apparent danger, we all agree that it is a =93good show.=94 A direct hit in Moosburg, the nearest town, sent up a cloud of smoke. The heavy traffic from barracks to abort shows that nature will have her way, even under these conditions. Even Kriegie burners are going full blast. Food is still an important item. We are all determined to eat. A Kriegie has tasted hunger and does not find it to his liking. I am now standing in the sunshine at the corner of our block. Many are now outside watching the show. Our camp guards have made us go to the shit trenches . Too many have been injured. Those in the tents are very vulnerable to flying bullets. The =93Goons=94 are firing from a visible church steeple in Moosburg, a good reason for damaged cathedrals that we read so much about in German propaganda. We Kriegies have been under the German heel too long to be fooled by their propaganda and feel much sympathy for them at this time. Most of the fire has been moved south into the town, but this shit trench is still a comfortable place to be. We jump up occasionally for a quick look, then back into the trench when close fire increases. Until additional excitement arises, I will close this erratic account and enjoy the show. Capt. Daniels was hit in the stomach by a 30 caliber bullet. His injury was slight thanks to an iron bar on the dispensary window. The American flag went up over Moosburg at 12:15 and our camp hoisted the same at 13:05 =96 a truly wonderful sight !! At 1:45 2 jeeps and a tank rolled into camp, barely recognizable because of the men clustered upon them. They received a deafening ovation. This account was begun by P.O.W. 1613, but is being finished by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, U.S.A.A.F - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 03:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:56:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp References: <3B06D39A.4794.1AE773F@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c0e0d8$6cdc2b60$b1904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for sharing that, Gary. Jeeez !.... Jeeez! GNT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: ; "ed miller" ; Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:12 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}Part of our planned POW page will be the Wartime Log of Lt. Harold W. "Hal" Gunn. I just finished transcribing Hal's play-by-play of the POWs liberation from Moosburg. I thought you would find it interesting - you can almost feel it.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- Account of the Liberation of the POW Camp at Moosburg, Germany by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, POW #1613. Transcribed from his Wartime Log by Gary L. Moncur: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Sunday - April 29, 1945 10:04 The time we have been waiting so long for has finally come. I am trying to record the events while sitting in rather cramped quarters in our barracks kitchen, the only place with brick walls. Bullets are flying, the chatter of machine gun fire and spasmodic rifle reports, punctuated by the heavy explosions of large guns makes a fitting background for our long anticipated liberation. The "Goons" are making a last stand at our gates. Rumors are flying as thick as the bullets. Two men have been victims of stray bullets. The whole camp has been taken in by the rumors. Inadequate causes and long stored up feelings makes the moment a dramatic one. Low flying Mustangs and Thunderbolts have been doing their bit to make it a "good show." Tanks have been sighted on the hill close by and are believed to be ours. Many "Kriegies" are eating what we hope to be our last "Kriegie" meal behind barbed wires. A heavy explosion just brought down a spray of plaster from the ceiling and walls. Air Force officers are receiving a lasting impression of a ground battle and feeling very much out of place. I am now crouched in the abort where many Kriegies have taken shelter. The steady hum of excited conversation reflects the pitch of the moment. We are all nervous, but our morale is very high. There is no sign of panic. Smiles are worn by all, and in spite of the apparent danger, we all agree that it is a "good show." A direct hit in Moosburg, the nearest town, sent up a cloud of smoke. The heavy traffic from barracks to abort shows that nature will have her way, even under these conditions. Even Kriegie burners are going full blast. Food is still an important item. We are all determined to eat. A Kriegie has tasted hunger and does not find it to his liking. I am now standing in the sunshine at the corner of our block. Many are now outside watching the show. Our camp guards have made us go to the shit trenches . Too many have been injured. Those in the tents are very vulnerable to flying bullets. The "Goons" are firing from a visible church steeple in Moosburg, a good reason for damaged cathedrals that we read so much about in German propaganda. We Kriegies have been under the German heel too long to be fooled by their propaganda and feel much sympathy for them at this time. Most of the fire has been moved south into the town, but this shit trench is still a comfortable place to be. We jump up occasionally for a quick look, then back into the trench when close fire increases. Until additional excitement arises, I will close this erratic account and enjoy the show. Capt. Daniels was hit in the stomach by a 30 caliber bullet. His injury was slight thanks to an iron bar on the dispensary window. The American flag went up over Moosburg at 12:15 and our camp hoisted the same at 13:05 - a truly wonderful sight !! At 1:45 2 jeeps and a tank rolled into camp, barely recognizable because of the men clustered upon them. They received a deafening ovation. This account was begun by P.O.W. 1613, but is being finished by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, U.S.A.A.F - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 04:50:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:50:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day References: Message-ID: <000401c0e0ed$1421bc00$2409f4cc@e0y0k4> Doesn't get much better than that, does it Bill? I remember some of the times I made a big leap in info in my father's searches. Congrats to you. Also, nice post on the group and division formations, as they progressed. We had that discussion a while ago, if you remember. Nice to see you're still hard at it, and it looks like you're nailing it down pretty good. Best to you. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day > I've had a good day. I just received a very nice letter from > William Crawford, the pilot with whom my father flew on his first > checkout mission. He sent me a copy of an account he had > written up about the mission. > It was very interesting to me because I had known that my father > had been hit by a piece of flak, but knew nothing about the > circumstances. The account I received today told the whole story > about how he was hit, and how the engineer patched him up with > the first aid kit, etc. Apparently it was only a minor injury, but it > was really quite special to read about it. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 13:46:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day In-Reply-To: <000401c0e0ed$1421bc00$2409f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: > Doesn't get much better than that, does it Bill? > I remember some of the times I made a big leap in info in my father's > searches. Congrats to you. Thanks. Yes, just when you think you aren't going to find anything new, something else pops up. It's happened a few times, a couple times thanks to people in this list. > Also, nice post on the group and division formations, as they > progressed. We had that discussion a while ago, if you remember. Nice to see > you're still hard at it, and it looks like you're nailing it down pretty > good. I remember the discussion, but I think much of it went over my head at that time. The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know. I just went back to re-read the messages, and I see now that there was information there that helps explain the current topic better. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 16:15:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 00:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:07:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B084E2E.6B92A784@attglobal.net> Grant ... Once back over friendly territory you asked if the formation was "relaxed" in the interest of "safety" .... This query infers that close formation was dangerous. Not so! Flying close formation took good pilot control and reflex but it did not compromise safety. When in combat, close formation greatly diminished the chance of the Luftwaffe attackng your particular formation. With my ten years as Captain in the post-war Lufthansa Airlines, I worked with and became very close friends with many of those fellows who flew against us. Every one to whom I mentioned close formation retorted that they frequently flew along our bomber column and WAITED for a straggling or loose formation. ALSO, many times they would view a close formation and just fly right past. I had a personal experience in this when leading a Wing once. Ahead of us was a Wing getting the bloody daylights beat out of it ... and all I could think of, was, "Gee we'll soon be up there and that's what we'll get!" (that was a dumb thought for we were all flying in a block of air and there was no such thing as 'soon we'll be up there' so to speak). And such was true, for the Luftwaffe bunch that was working over the Wing ahead of us, never even bothered to come near us! Having said all of the above, I believe there is among some of you of a later generation that somehow flying close formation was 'dangerous" ... not so. Do not forget, once you were posted to B17s, MOST of your training was flying formation ... and most of our fellows were very good at it. When we got over friendly territory ???? as you asked .... naturally we eased up a bit while ... at the same time ... reveling in the fact that we GOT ANOTHER MISSION UNDER OUR BELT! But, do not forget. We had to arrive back at our Base close enough not to bother the formation which was also coming back to their Base which may be only 3 or 4 miles from ours. And the Group landing was done out of a group formation to avail us of the speed necessary to get all on the ground SOONEST due to no one having much FUEL! We did this coming over the field in full formation with the lead element positioning in echelon which then landed in tight circling approaches. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would > formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 00:49:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:49:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] France awards American WW ll vets Message-ID: <4b.be7430c.2839b1ed@gateway.net> FYI ... from a small town newspaper ... Venice, FL This article appeared in the "Venice Gondolier Sun" on Sat. May 19th. For anyone that may be interested, this is a condensed version: Fifty-seven years after American troops landed on the shores of Normandy during World War II, the French government is expressing their gratitude to all who served in French territory, waters and air space between June 6, 1944 and May 8, 1945. In 1995, France awarded medals to those who participated in the D-Day invasion at Omaha Beach near Normandy. For eligible veterans, an application for this award may be obtained by visiting: www.info-france-usa.org/fhot2.htm I just thought that I would pass the info. along in case someone would be interested and want to follow up on it. Have a good day, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 01:33:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:33:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3B084E2E.6B92A784@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002901c0e18d$b96f6ea0$a4b34d0c@o3n4f8> As usual, Bill Heller. If this doesn't explain it, nothing will. A very big help, sir. Thank you kindly. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > Grant ... > > Once back over friendly territory you asked if the formation was > "relaxed" in the interest of "safety" .... This query infers that close > formation was dangerous. Not so! Flying close formation took good pilot > control and reflex but it did not compromise safety. When in combat, > close formation greatly diminished the chance of the Luftwaffe attackng > your particular formation. With my ten years as Captain in the post-war > Lufthansa Airlines, I worked with and became very close friends with > many of those fellows who flew against us. Every one to whom I mentioned > close formation retorted that they frequently flew along our bomber > column and WAITED for a straggling or loose formation. ALSO, many times > they would view a close formation and just fly right past. > I had a personal experience in this when leading a Wing once. Ahead of > us was a Wing getting the bloody daylights beat out of it ... and all I > could think of, was, "Gee we'll soon be up there and that's what we'll > get!" (that was a dumb thought for we were all flying in a block of air > and there was no such thing as 'soon we'll be up there' so to speak). > And such was true, for the Luftwaffe bunch that was working over the > Wing ahead of us, never even bothered to come near us! > > Having said all of the above, I believe there is among some of you of a > later generation that somehow flying close formation was 'dangerous" > ... not so. Do not forget, once you were posted to B17s, MOST of your > training was flying formation ... and most of our fellows were very good > at it. > > When we got over friendly territory ???? as you asked .... naturally we > eased up a bit while ... at the same time ... reveling in the fact that > we GOT ANOTHER MISSION UNDER OUR BELT! But, do not forget. We had to > arrive back at our Base close enough not to bother the formation which > was also coming back to their Base which may be only 3 or 4 miles from > ours. And the Group landing was done out of a group formation to avail > us of the speed necessary to get all on the ground SOONEST due to no one > having much FUEL! > We did this coming over the field in full formation with the lead > element positioning in echelon which then landed in tight circling > approaches. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would > > formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 06:06:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:06:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or lazy but not the 303rd. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 07:34:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:34:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B08B6DD.A3842535@attglobal.net> Well said, Jack! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into > each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 06:20:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:20:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0e1b5$d3da4080$c8194e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, I appreciate your comments. You and Bill Heller have answered my question pretty throughly. I am not as ignorant as I was a few days ago. Bill Jones discussed this privately , and some of the photos and records his father had also helped put the picture in perspective. From what I have read, some outfits didn't maintain the same discipline as the 303rd, and paid the price. Thanks to everyone that replied to this question. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into > each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 13:44:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base In-Reply-To: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: > Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. Sorry, forgot to ask one thing. What about if one plane got hit by flak and turned sharply due to loss of a control surface or engine? Ie it seems like in that situation flying tight formation would make it harder for the other planes to get out of the way. I read on account of a 303rd squadron having just formed up, and getting ready to head out on a mission only to have another group from another CBW come right toward them in the wrong direction around the buncher (I guess they were going around another buncher, but got too far out or something). The account said that the squadron had to scatter to avoid a collission. In a situation like that, is there any prescribed way to get out of the formation fast, or was it just every man for himself? I was going to say that being loose might make it easier to avoid collission in a situation like this, but on thinking, perhaps staying tight would present a smaller target to avoid? Actually, the account of the above example didn't use the word scattered as I did, the account said that the squadron was "cut from the formation", so maybe it didn't have to scatter? Anyway, the responses have discussed how flying formation is safer if everything goes right, but I'm just curious about how you get out of a tight formation quickly when things go wrong. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 13:44:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base In-Reply-To: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: > Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack >From looking at the pictures of both 303rd formations and other formation, I'm having a hard time understanding what constitutes a close formation. Ie it seems like in the later squadron formations, that the individual "flights", ie groups of 3 planes would be tight, but the spacing between each flight would look "loose" to me. But I don't really know what I'm looking for. Was it more important to keep the groups of 3 tight rather than the whole squadron? Somewhere, perhaps it was on the movie "Target for Today", I think I saw some explanation of just how the planes in the older "box" formation were supposed to line up, ie something like the pilot of plane x would move up even with the tail of plane y, or something like that, but I've never seen it written down, and I have never seen any description of it at all for the later squadron formation. There is a chapter on "formation flying" in one of the B-17 pilot training manuals that I have, but it looks like something unlike either of the two formations used in the war, so I think it must have been written by Boeing rather than the 8thAF. Can someone describe what mental processes flight leaders used to line up on the squadron lead flight, and what the wing planes did to line up on the flight leaders? If possible, for both the older "Box" and the later "Squadron" formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 18:23:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:23:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: Message-ID: <3B094F0E.766F75EF@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Close formation was much more safe than the few incidents caused by errant flying although what you say does have its down side. The attitude that perhaps "strung out" formations are more safe as to anyone hitting someone else ... on the other hand, as I know from both experience and having been told ny Luftwaffe pilot friends of mine, CLOSE formation was a HUGE DETERRENT to attack. Yes, we did have collisions, but mostly NOT due to any close formation. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Most mid air collisions are between > > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. > > Sorry, forgot to ask one thing. What about if one plane got hit by > flak and turned sharply due to loss of a control surface or engine? > Ie it seems like in that situation flying tight formation would make it > harder for the other planes to get out of the way. > I read on account of a 303rd squadron having just formed up, > and getting ready to head out on a mission only to have another > group from another CBW come right toward them in the wrong > direction around the buncher (I guess they were going around > another buncher, but got too far out or something). The account > said that the squadron had to scatter to avoid a collission. In a > situation like that, is there any prescribed way to get out of the > formation fast, or was it just every man for himself? I was going to > say that being loose might make it easier to avoid collission in a > situation like this, but on thinking, perhaps staying tight would > present a smaller target to avoid? Actually, the account of the > above example didn't use the word scattered as I did, the account > said that the squadron was "cut from the formation", so maybe it > didn't have to scatter? > Anyway, the responses have discussed how flying formation is > safer if everything goes right, but I'm just curious about how you get > out of a tight formation quickly when things go wrong. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 18:16:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:16:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: <001301c0e219$b9521d00$db8f4d0c@o3n4f8> So, essentially; the advantages of keeping a tight formation over enemy territory far out weighed the the potential for mid-air accidents ( given the training and skill level of the pilots in any particular group was kept at its peak). The massed firepower of a closed up formation was a strong deterent to attacking fighters. On returning to base, a relatively tight formation abettted the landing sequence ( which was closely spaced due to fuel depletion). I hope I have gotten this correctly, because I have another, hopefully relevant, question to ask. ( and I am sincerely grateful for everyones indulgence and patience with this subject). Question: Was any preferance given, or , possible, during the landing sequence to badly damaged aircraft, or aircraft with casualties aboard? If so, in what order? ( I am considering that a damaged plane that crashed on landing could tie up the runway and create a major problem for other planes in the pattern.) Question: How much time was generally allotted to recovering aircraft ie. landing the Group? ***The explinations you guys are giving is far superior to anything I have been able to find in a book. *** and very much appreciated. Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 19:55:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:55:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: Hi Lloyd: Aircraft with wounded aboard or an a/c having mechanical difficulties would fire off flares while in the landing pattern that gave them priority landing above all others. Red flares marked ships with wounded on board. Planes that were damaged were diverted to secondary runways or to the grass depending on their degree of damage. FYI: 100 B-17s in formation could fire one ton of lead per minutes from their .50s! Imagine attacking knowing that information! Oskar Bosch, IV.(Sturm)/JG 3, said attacking a group of tightly packed B-17s was like trying to make love to a porcupine on fire! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:16:05 -0400 > >So, essentially; > the advantages of >keeping a tight formation over enemy territory far out weighed the the >potential for mid-air accidents ( given the training and skill level of the >pilots in any particular group was kept at its peak). The massed firepower >of a closed up formation was a strong deterent to attacking fighters. >On returning to base, a relatively tight formation abettted the landing >sequence ( which was closely spaced due to fuel depletion). >I hope I have gotten this correctly, because I have another, hopefully >relevant, question to ask. ( and I am sincerely grateful for everyones >indulgence and patience with this subject). >Question: Was any preferance given, or , possible, during the landing >sequence to badly damaged aircraft, or aircraft with casualties aboard? If >so, in what order? >( I am considering that a damaged plane that crashed on landing could tie >up >the runway and create a major problem for other planes in the pattern.) >Question: How much time was generally allotted to recovering aircraft ie. >landing the Group? > >***The explinations you guys are giving is far superior to anything I have >been able to find in a book. *** and very much appreciated. > Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 21:51:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:51:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bombardier class 42-13 picture and names Message-ID: List, Last week I informed you that I had a picture of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, NM, but that I had no names. I have now found the names and they are below in alphabetical order. Unfortunately, the listing does not correspond to the faces. Gary Moncur, web master, has posted the photo at this location: http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/bombardier42-13.jpg It is admittedly a bad version that I sent him as my scanner is acting up. I will rescan and provide a better version as soon I am able. If you or someone you know is on the picture can you please inform me. Crazy as it sounds I'd like to track all of them down. Any assistance you can provide will be gratefully appreciated. BTW, my uncle is in the back row, 9th from the right, with the telephone pole behind him. Dave Tooley Here is the list of names: Joseph Bernard Adams David Robert Akers John Andruszkiewiez Edward Rodney Armstrong William West Barney Charles Marvin Box Ernest Iseral Brewster John Allen Brown, Jr. John Roland Brown Edwin Moscoe Bruton John Bugra John Howard Burns Norris Kenneth Calkins Robert Carl Axel Carlson Thomas Edward Casey Herbert Harvey Chalsky Francis Carrolton Chaney, II Joseph Ralph Chaswick Dean Palmer Chisnell Nelson Edward Church Edmond Joseph Clemenzi Frank Cecil Coon William Louis Corson Don William Cox Edward Jackson Cunningham George Chancellor Cunningham Howard Joseph Dean Robert Eugene Dibble Raymond Evertson Diltz John Richard Duggins James Eldon Dunaway Salvatore Ernest Echo Paul Robert Englert Leo Kenneth English Norman Richard Esh George Francis Faour Robert Louis Faulhaber Michael Francis Feeney, Jr. Wayne Robert - Fitzgerald Sanford Lester Forde Robert Frederick Francis George John Friesner Andy Keet Garrett Robert Garson George Ghetia James Gibbons, Jr. Raymond Wilson Grace Cecil Hillard Hall Kimball Dee Hall Albert Herman Halpern Lloyd Scott Hansen Jack Beaumont Hanson Leland Thomas Harrington Hugh Rndolph Harrison Joseph Anthony Harroun Albert Nolan Hasson Leslie Armin Heidelberger Joseph Alden Helbert Frederick Eugene Helmick Raymond DeWitt Hill, Jr. Paul Herman Horovitz Charley Frank Hughes Robert Orlan Jarrett Walter Perry Johnson William Herbert Jones Ernest Emanuel Kafer George Henry Kahmann.. Rudolph William Kazich Anthony Joseph Kochznowski Stanley Lieberman Ralph Kennith Liebl, Paul Warner Lingrel Donald Bruce MacAllister Rodney Allen Manning Joseph Rudolph Marek Edward Frederick Mason, Jr. Augustus March Carl Theodore Miller, John Edward Miller Vernon Louis Miller Joe Argailus Mims Edward Murzyn John Alfred Ogden Douglas Cameron Orr Charles Henry Partlow Gordon Bruce Perkins James Henry Peterson Raymond George Petrich. Walter Charles Piasecki John William Pierik Ernest Leroy Pollard, Jr, Gene Little Powers William John Reich Henry William Schoedel John Regis Shaughnessy, Jr. Fred Charles Sickles, Jr. Kent George Smith Martin Van Stanford Michael Peters Stefanko Andreas Charles Stolen Edward Anthony Supinski John Gregory Swan Elmer Backburn Taylor Norman Joe Taylor Jay D. Titus Thomas George Trainor Frank Timothy Urban Virgil Francis Vink Nicholas Paul Wagner Jack Edmund Walker Chaplin J. Watkins Paul Eugene Webber Donald Rolland West Joseph Ward Westbrook, Jr. Parks Hubbard Williams John Stanley Woravka Lansing Jackson Yates From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:20:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:20:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #278 Formation Flying Message-ID: As Bill Heller put it, close formation was not too difficult. When you are in formation your relative speed with the plane you are flying formation with is zero or very little. As I recall we only used the outboard engines to maintain formation. It took only a very small increase in power to move up into a close position or to maintain your position. If you moved too far out of the desired formation it took more power and more fuel to reform. Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:22:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:22:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: The questions on tight formation have been answered very well so I will not add much to their answers. They were well said and accurate. I do want to add a bit, however. There were two pilots on each airplane. One was flying formation and he did not take his eyes off his lead plane If the lead moved one inch he should move one inch in exactly the same direction as his lead. If he did this how could they hit each other? The other resting pilot was an observer. He watched the flak, the instruments The sky, The other airplanes, If another airplane suddenly was going to hit us for any reason He could say I've got it and fly formation with the errant plane until it was past a point it could hit us, over, under, beside, what ever was necessary. If he missed us 5 or 6 feet that was enough. We didn't have to tear the formation up at all. Just move up or down or sideways a few feet until he was gone and then get back on our lead plane. It usually didn't take over 5 seconds or so and we didn't have to go into the next county. A few feet was enough. The one problem with close formation was if your neighbor got a direct hit and exploded the blast might get you too.. This risk was well worth taking as the German fighters would fly past us and look for a loose formation as others have told you and we got better bomb patterns on the ground and maybe didn't have to go back to that target again. Especially Merseburg. The 303rd had a lot of pride. We were known as the 303rd we won't turn for any one Bomb group by some. Once were on our Bomb Run. another Squadron were on their bomb run and it soon became obvious we were converging. But we were the 303rd and we would not turn for anyone. The other squadron was on our right and their aiming point was to the left of ours. As we got closer we saw the big Red triangles with the C therein. We knew then they were one of the other squadrons from the 303rd we won't turn for anyone Group. Our two formations flew through each other on about a 30 degree angle and both squadrons emerged with their formation intact and there was not one collision. There was a lot of dodging up and down for about 15 second. I would not believe it if I hadn't seen it. Maybe someone else was in one of these squadrons and on that mission and remembers it. The 358th was one of the Squadrons. I don't know who the other one was, but it was one of the 303rds. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:27:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:27:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: very well related bill. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 13:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:21:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <68.efb0d40.283bb3e1@aol.com> If I remember correctly, close formation on return was the order of the day, with continual criticism from the buzzing A-31 Vultee Vengeance to "Keep it tight or you'll be up there until you do", amidst checking to see that the bolts hadn't been removed from the guns until after landing. Right? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 13:28:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:28:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: <99.1528a3fb.283bb567@aol.com> Love that porcupine metaphor...all of which makes me all the more proud of our 360th pilot Marvin "Mike" Fink who got us through thick and thin with nary a tense moment....at least we didn't know about it! Cheers, Mike and all........Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 16:45:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:45:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #278 Formation Flying Message-ID: <3b.14f13191.283be3a3@aol.com> all. i see on my tv schedule for history channel for tonight at 10;p.m. is program titled WAR PLANES OF WORLD WAR II. THOUGHT SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE SAME IN YOUR AREA. SPEC From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 16:58:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:58:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <68.efb0d40.283bb3e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003401c0e2d7$ff648e40$a18f4d0c@o3n4f8> So, Bob, there was a "mother-hen" airborne to monitor the returning planes. I am thankful that you included that bit of information. Now, I have to go find a picture of an A-31 Vultee Vengence. Ps. One more stop in Arizona and the Molesworth tape is headed back to Florida. One tape got "lost in the Mail" so that has slowed the progression a bit. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > If I remember correctly, close formation on return was the order of the day, > with continual criticism from the buzzing A-31 Vultee Vengeance to "Keep it > tight or you'll be up there until you do", amidst checking to see that the > bolts hadn't been removed from the guns until after landing. Right? > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:14:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:14:51 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 19:57:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:57:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude References: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Message-ID: <000501c0e2f1$1f6544a0$bd184e0c@o3n4f8> Gary, in laymans terms, density altitude refers to the density of air molecules at a given elevation above sea level at a given temperature. The higher up, the thinner the molecules of air. Also, the higher the temperature of the air at a given altitude the less lift is afforded to the wings' airfoil. Thus, in the afternoon it takes more runway to get off the ground. Better explainations will follow, I am certain. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 20:01:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:01:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude References: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c0e2f1$ad8a6da0$bd184e0c@o3n4f8> Ps. I never got enough scratch to go for a ride in her, but a few years ago I was allowed an unrestricted tour of the plane. You are in for a real treat. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:07:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:07:24 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <20010522200725.GCQJ8745.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http