From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:03:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam Message-ID: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at the subscriber list from the info page: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001501c0d1cf$4b7d1d20$21f833cf@richards> LLOYD: THE CONTROL CABLES WERE VULNERABLE TO BATTLE DAMAGE . AS A LAST RESORT YOU COULD FLY THE AIRPLANE ON AUTO PILOT AS THE SERVOS FOR EACH CONTROL WERE AT THE GIVEN CONTROL OR VERY CLOSE THEY RAN ON ELECTRIC CURRENT SUPPLIED FROM THE AUTO PILOT. I KNOW OF SEVERAL PILOTED WHO SUCCESSFULLY FLEW HOME ON AUTO PILOT AND EVEN LANDED THE PLANE. SPIDER P.S. I FLEW THE B17 AFTER THE WAR IN THE 3171ST ELECTRONIC RESEARCH SQUADRON AT ROME NY "GRIFFIS AFB." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AEDF8A5.26BA3A4F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Re control cables, etc. On a mission, the pilot turned on his AFCE and their servo motors were close to the point of actuation of various controls. If your cables were shot out you could use the AFCE. One time my brother landed his B17 at Molesworth with all the cables laying on the floor the length of the fuselage. He did it all with AFCE. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:43:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:15:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:15:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker Message-ID: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he had passed away. Don't know just when. Ed From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:15:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:15:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker References: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Message-ID: <000701c0d1dc$33c913c0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Ed. I am glad that J.C. Barker survived to live out his life. I don't know much about him, except that on that one day he and Roy Smith saved the life of my father and at least seven other men. The story my dad told me was not very "pretty". It haunts me in away. None-the-less... there are never enough words in the dictionary to properly define the admiration and gratitude, nor, the esteem we have for everyone of you. I hope you understand. Very best, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Lamme" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker > Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member > of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he > had passed away. Don't know just when. > > Ed > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:31:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c0d1de$f6139fc0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, sir. Desperate , or, brave, (likely both) your engineer is typical of many untold stories. I genuinely appreciate your comments on the subject. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit > with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down > withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back > and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main > cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he > always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:48:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:48:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam References: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> Message-ID: <003301c0d1e0$d7a702a0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, and all, "paranoia strikes deep..." as the song says. Why someone gets their "jollies" from trying to ruin a beautiful thing like the internet is a bit depressing. I guess there will always be something evil forever envious of what is good. Grant. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam > > I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk > list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. > Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some > automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at > the subscriber list from the info page: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:54:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing References: <54.13c0cf3c.281f43ba@aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c0d1e1$a6fcb540$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Don't believe a word of it , Bob. :---)0 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing More "how we got to England." Perusal of my records shows travel time from Kearny, Nebr. to Prestwick, Scotland: B-17G -Aircraft # 42-97238 (Wonder what it's ultimate fate was?) 3/11/44 - Depart Kearny, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 50 min. 3/21/44 - Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Presque Isle, ME AFB.........2 hrs, 20 min. 3/22/44 - Depart Presque Isle, Arrive Goose Bay, Lab…………….4 hrs, 35 min. 3/24/44 - Depart Goose Bay, Lab. Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 30 min. 3/26/44 - Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Prestwick, Scot........6 hrs, 35 min. Total flying time: 29:50 (Sure hated to give up that bird!) Note: Our stop in Presque Isle was a result of a "mysterious problem" with our radios. Fact was we just hated to leave the USA, so landed to have "problem" fixed, figuring if they probed enough they would find something. Sure enough, it worked, as they found a nonexistent fault; we RONd there and departed the next morning Regards, Bob Kerr From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 05:12:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:12:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. Thanks, Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to date > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's offer > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pfico" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > your > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > > viewers please? > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > Regards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 04:58:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:58:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Hi Lloyd, > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > Thanks, > Gordy. > > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to > date > > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's > offer > > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "pfico" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > > your > > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list > of > > > viewers please? > > > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 06:56:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:56:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000f01c0d203$6e030380$b909f4cc@e0y0k4> Double eh, eh? Nice of you to do this for all of us, Lloyd. Cheers to you, too, mate. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, > if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. > I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the > tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. > Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Hi Lloyd, > > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government > wouldn't > > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > > Thanks, > > Gordy. > > > > ************************************** > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 129 Mariko Place > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > > gordy@saltspring.com > > ************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 09:48:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 04:48:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 13:29:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:29:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob re 43-38737 Message-ID: Thank you, Moofy, for your info on #737....she did herself proud, I guess you'd say and the Kingman chopper-upper was more than she deserved. Hope you are well in health and spirit.....Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:34:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:34:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:49:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:49:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: China Rescue Mission Message-ID: <002001c0d256$4c578b40$5c3f22d1@billowen> ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: China Rescue Mission > I think the members will find this very interesting reading. I did. Bill Owen > > > AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE > > > CHINA RESCUE MISSION > > > April 12, 2001 > > > By Captain Guy Greider > > > Continental Airlines > > > Since the mid-air collision on April 1, 2001 > > > between a U.S. Navy EP-3 surveillance aircraft and a > > > Chinese jet fighter, I had watched the news with mild > > > interest. This was mostly due to the proximity of Guam to > > > China. I never dreamed that I would play a role in this > > > intensely watched international drama. > > > Somewhere in the negotiations between the United > > > States and the Chinese Governments, it was decided that a > > > civilian aircraft should be sent to retrieve the 24 > > > crewmembers being detained on Hainan Island, China. A > > > call was made to Continental Airlines headquarters in > > > Houston, Texas. Continental was chosen because of its > > > Guam base and its ability to launch this kind of > > > operation at a moment s notice. From there, the operation > > > took shape through the tireless efforts of many people > > > working behind the scenes in a coordinated effort between > > > the airline, the military, and the State Department. > > > On Saturday, April 7, 2001, I received a call at > > > home from Captain Ralph Freeman, Continental Micronesia > > > Director of Flight Operations. Ralph told me that the > > > military wanted to charter one of our jets to conduct a > > > rescue mission and asked if I would be one of the > > > crewmembers. I said yes without hesitation. > > > Later we were told that we would need to get passport > > > pictures taken in case the Chinese Government required > > > visas. We got the required photos and were under the > > > impression that we would leave immediately. However, the > > > negotiations slowed over the demand from the Chinese that > > > the U.S. issue an apology that the U.S. was unwilling to > > > give. Meanwhile, the Continental crew remained on call 24 > > > hours a day. Our Uniforms were laid out and our bags were > > > packed and waiting by the door. > > > On Wednesday evening April 11, 2001, at about 6:30 PM > > > Ralph called again to say that the two parties were very > > > close to an agreement to release the U.S. crew and to > > > come to the airport. Upon arrival, we were given a > > > briefing sheet listing the information that we would need > > > to conduct the flight. > > > We would carry a Repatriation Team consisting of Navy, > > > Marine Corps, and Air Force specialists, 14 people in > > > all. Doctors, Psychologists, and communications people > > > with lots of gear showed up on the ramp near the > > > airplane, ready to board. They were all dressed in casual > > > civilian clothes. > > > The 155-seat jet was fitted with 2 full stretcher kits > > > bolted in over rows of seats complete with Oxygen tanks > > > and I.V. bottles. They did not know the condition of the > > > 24 detained crewmembers and they were not going to take > > > any chances. They were prepared. > > > When our crew was fully assembled, it consisted of 11 > > > people. 2 pilots to fly the jet and an extra to provide > > > relief because of the extensive flight time involved. > > > They were Captain Tom Pinardo, Captain Pierre Frenay and > > > I. We also carried 5 very experienced Flight Attendants. > > > They were Debbie Percell, Susanne Hendricks, Jean Tang, > > > Cynthia Iverson, and Beverly Haines. Our 2 onboard > > > mechanics were Peter Lum and Julius Aguilo. Our load > > > planner was Mike Torres. > > > At about 9:30 PM we received a call asking that we arrive > > > in China no earlier than 6:00 AM, just about sunrise. It > > > was obvious that the entire exchange would be > > > photographed and they wanted daylight conditions. We > > > estimated that a 2:15 AM departure from Guam would put us > > > on the ground in Haikou precisely at 6:00 AM local China > > > time. (2 hours earlier than Guam) Some of us just stayed > > > on the plane, others accepted the company s invitation to > > > come to the Continental President s Club, a local VIP > > > lounge at the airport to try to get some rest. It was > > > difficult to get any rest with our much-anticipated > > > mission so near. > > > By 1:00 AM the pilots were back in the briefing room > > > going over the weather, flight plan, fuel requirements > > > and everything else that goes into a flight. Again, we > > > loaded up the airplane and finally departed Guam > > > International at precisely 2:15 AM. > > > The stretcher kits and medical gear were not the only > > > special additions to the airplane. The company had loaded > > > a special file into the navigation database of the flight > > > management computer (FMC). This allowed us to gain access > > > to navigation data needed to operate in this part of > > > China, which is not in our normal route structure. The > > > Repatriation Team carried sophisticated equipment to > > > communicate with the military and government officials > > > that would monitor our progress throughout the flight. > > > The route of flight took us straight west from Guam > > > toward the Philippines along the G467 airway. About half > > > way across we turned north directly toward Hong Kong. > > > This routing was designed to avoid flying through > > > Taiwanese airspace, something that the Chinese could > > > consider offensive. > > > Approaching the Chinese coastline, we contacted Hong Kong > > > radar control. After establishing radar contact with us, > > > the controller gave us a short cut to expedite his > > > traffic flow. This was bad because it cut off > > > considerable distance and would result in arriving too > > > early. We compensated by slowing our airspeed until the > > > computer again estimated a 6:00 AM arrival. The instant > > > we turned across the short cut, the interphone rang from > > > the back of the plane. They wanted to know why we had > > > deviated from the flight plan. We told them it was due to > > > Hong Kong traffic and that we had adjusted our airspeed. > > > We were still on schedule. > > > Now we were approaching our destination, Haikou airport > > > on Hainan Island. Captain Pierre Frenay was at the > > > controls. The weather was 2000-ft overcast with 5 miles > > > visibility and light winds out of the east. Pierre made > > > an ILS approach to and landed on runway 9. Haikou airport > > > is much the same as many other airports in the world that > > > serve jet transport aircraft. It has an 11,000-ft runway > > > with standard lighting and navigational facilities. We > > > touched down at 6:07 AM. The first early morning light > > > was beginning to illuminate the sky. > > > The local air traffic controller instructed us to follow > > > a vehicle that was beside us on an adjacent taxiway. He > > > led us to a remote part of the airport, away from the > > > main terminal buildings. Once we had parked and shut down > > > the engines, we saw many uniformed Chinese military > > > personnel and vehicles. They did not appear to have > > > weapons. Portable stairs were brought up to the airplane > > > and we opened the main cabin door. > > > The Repatriation Team that we carried had been briefed to > > > close down all of their communications equipment prior to > > > landing and put it away. They were also briefed to remain > > > in their seats in a non-threatening posture in case the > > > Chinese military came aboard. The first and only person > > > to come aboard was an Air China employee. He spoke > > > English and was to act as the translator between our > > > group and the Chinese military. He instructed us to have > > > everyone fill out both arrival and departure documents. > > > He collected all of our passports and left the aircraft. > > > Before he left, he said that only one person at a time > > > would be allowed to deplane. > > > Peter Lum, one of our mechanics went down to supervise > > > the re-fueling and servicing of the airplane. When that > > > was complete, I went down to do the walk-around > > > inspection. I did this rather slowly because I wanted to > > > have a chance to look around. While I was out on the > > > ramp, a skirmish developed between people who were trying > > > to climb a wall to photograph our aircraft and the > > > Chinese police. Somehow, CNN managed to carry our arrival > > > and departure live. > > > Once the airplane was serviced and ready to go, we looked > > > anxiously around for any sign of the buses that carried > > > our 24 detainees. Before that could happen however, we > > > had a problem to deal with. A U.S. military General who > > > was on the scene to assist in the transfer came storming > > > up the stairs and demanded to speak with the Captain. Tom > > > Pinardo responded. The General said that the entire > > > mission was now in jeopardy. A document called the > > > general declaration, which is standard on all > > > international flights had listed the destination as > > > Haikou, China R.O.C. The initials ROC stand for Republic > > > of China which is .. Taiwan! The Chinese were very upset > > > over this. Tom quickly crossed out ROC and replaced it > > > with P.R.O.C. the Peoples Republic of China. This seemed > > > to satisfy them. > > > With the airplane ready to go and the paperwork complete, > > > 2 buses pulled up and the 24 U.S. service men and women > > > saluted as they bolted up the stairs and settled into the > > > back of the plane. When the last one was aboard, our > > > passports were returned to us. The stairs were withdrawn, > > > the cabin door closed, and we started the engines and > > > departed. It was my turn at the controls. > > > Once airborne heading straight south we broke through the > > > clouds into the bright sunshine. Pierre made a PA > > > announcement that we were over international waters and > > > leaving Chinese airspace. A great cheer rose from the > > > back of the airplane. A short while later we received a > > > telephone patch over the HF radio from Mr. Joseph > > > Prueher, U.S Ambassador to China. He wanted to speak with > > > Lt. Shane Osborne the 26 year old EP-3 Aircraft > > > Commander. Lt. Osborne came to the cockpit and put on a > > > headset. The Ambassador told him that on behalf of the > > > President of the United States and the entire country he > > > wanted to say welcome home . He went on to say how proud > > > he was of everything the crew had done from their > > > airmanship in saving the lives of the crew and aircraft, > > > to their conduct on the ground once they had been > > > detained. They had truly done an excellent job. > > > After his conversation with the Ambassador, Lt. Osborne > > > stayed in the cockpit for quite a while and told us his > > > story pilot to pilot of what had happened during and > > > immediately after the mid-air collision with the F-8 > > > Chinese fighter. The fighter came up under their left > > > wing. This pilot made 2 very close passes previously that > > > day. He apparently misjudged the intercept and his > > > vertical stabilizer struck the outboard left propeller on > > > the EP-3. The U.S. plane was in straight and level flight > > > on autopilot at the time. > > > The fighter broke into two pieces and plunged into the > > > sea. The U.S. plane rolled to the left almost inverted, > > > the pilot lost control and they began to lose altitude. > > > The Chinese fighter had raked back across the fuselage > > > and knocked off the nose cone causing the aircraft to > > > buffet wildly. When the nose cone departed the aircraft > > > it collided with and damaged the number 4 propeller on > > > the right wing. The collision punctured the pressure > > > vessel and the EP-3 depressurized. The collision also > > > knocked off the pitot tubes eliminating airspeed and > > > altitude indications in the cockpit. It also knocked off > > > the forward bracket for the HF radio antenna. The antenna > > > then flew back and wrapped around the tail. > > > We were almost upside down and totally out of control > > > Osborne told us. The dive continued and some crew members > > > donned parachutes. At about 8,000 feet, Osborne regained > > > straight and level flight. They considered ditching the > > > aircraft in the South China Sea but dismissed that option > > > because it was certain to result in loss of life. They > > > headed for the nearest land, Hainan Island. The U.S. crew > > > now faced the most difficult landing of their lives. They > > > made numerous mayday, mayday, mayday radio calls on > > > internationally recognized emergency frequencies. The > > > Chinese did not respond. Somehow, they managed to get the > > > airplane on the ground. > > > Their next immediate task was to destroy the sensitive > > > electronic surveillance equipment aboard the EP-3. > > > Meanwhile the Chinese military had approached the > > > aircraft in vehicles and were yelling at them through > > > loudspeakers to deplane. The next 11 days would be a very > > > uncertain time for them. > > > When we met them, they told us that they had not been > > > abused or mistreated. Their food was adequate and > > > plentiful. Sort of like eating in a Chinese restaurant > > > every day one of them said. On the forth day, they got > > > some coffee. On the fifth day, some cokes were provided. > > > The crew did not know what kind of transport would be > > > provided for their return home. They were pleased and > > > surprised to see a chartered airliner from the United > > > States. > > > The rest of the flight from Haikou to Anderson AFB on > > > Guam was uneventful. During the 5 hour flight the crew > > > was treated to the movie Men of Honor and enjoyed a > > > first class meal. We did not know it at the time but our > > > landing at Anderson AFB was carried live on national > > > television. > > > We taxied to the parking ramp at Anderson where many > > > people had turned out to welcome all of us home. > > > Individuals and families with kids, both military and > > > civilian waved American flags and cheered, showing > > > support for the returning U.S. spy plane crew. > > > Once the 24 U.S. crewmembers and the military > > > Repatriation Team had deplaned at Anderson, they > > > immediately boarded waiting buses and were whisked away. > > > The Continental crew then became the object of intense > > > media attention. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, Reuters and > > > various print media interviewed us. A dizzying swirl of > > > attention after a very long day. > > > We were happy, tired, and pleased that the mission was so > > > successful as Tom flew the last segment, a 10-minute > > > flight back to Guam International Airport. This time our > > > passengers included Bill Meehan, President of Continental > > > Micronesia, Guam Governor Carl Gutierrez, Lieutenant > > > Governor Bordallo and others. > > > We thought the day was just about over but we had one > > > more surprise in store. After landing, we were given a > > > hero s welcome of our own. The airport fire department > > > was in place to give us the traditional water cannon > > > salute, a rainbow arch of water for us to taxi under. A > > > reception was held at the gate with food, balloons, > > > commemorative plaques, and more media interviews with the > > > local television station. This was very heady stuff. > > > As I look back on this one of a kind operation. It could > > > not have happened without the tremendous effort and > > > skills of many. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:24:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:24:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: Message-ID: <005601c0d25e$bbf79e60$4f09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Spec, No, I'm a long way from there. I live on an island off the Canadian west coast, between the BC mainland and Vancouver Island. Salt Spring Island is in the Strait of Georgia (Juan de Fuca). Lovely place, and has the best climate in Canada. Hardly any snow in the winter (very rarely). Our climate is classed as a temperate rain forest, but it rains only in the winter. The summers are warm and dry. If you want to have a real look, check out this link: http://www.gulfislands.com/ By the way, I am just starting to read "Three Engines, Half a Wing, and a Prayer", revised edition. It sure is a well written book, and hard to put down. It takes a while to read though, because I keep going back to read things as I go. I may have a question or two for you guys. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:12:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: Message-ID: <001c01c0d259$7fb40380$ecb34d0c@o3n4f8> Anne, did I forget to add "skillful" and "resourceful". From what I have read, many young ( and some not so young ) flight engineers proved their mettle. I am proud to share the last name. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and > possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, > broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. > His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a > strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he > couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. > On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the > Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. > 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to > touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 21:16:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Sontag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:16:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <200105012016.NAA26591@mail5.bigmailbox.com> My name is James Sontag and I'm 35 years old. I live in San Antonio Texas and collect books on Unit Histories and the air war from World War II. I have never been in the military but have great admiration for all who served our country and those that still do. I am happily married and my wife will object to me spending so much on books. As I always tell her, there are worse things to spend my money on and I also add that I'm doing this for her future, alot of the books are rare and will only go up in value. I'm excited about this group and can't wait to hear from all. Thanks! James Sontag ------------------------------------------------------------ The Official Iron Maiden Website: http://www.ironmaiden.com More Metal at: http://www.metal-is.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 23:57:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:57:46 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <20010501225747.KQMK6429.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Welcome Jim, a lot of us spent time in San Antonio during the war. I was there for Army Air Corps Classification in the spring of 1944. Then to Midland for Advanced Bombardier School. Hope you enjoy 303rd- Talk. Best regards, ...Bill Runnels, bombardier, 303rd BG, 360th Squadron. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:50:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:50:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for me... *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only knew what they were in for. *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st USAAF raids from the base. *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It was tough in the E.T.O.??? Thanks to all involved. Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:53:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:53:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <36.15299e74.281df472@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b501c0d2bc$9a100680$2309f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, My father went over and back by ship. When he went over, they were in = convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of three = weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was good. When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than 5 days on a Dutch = ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months in prison = camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG. One other thing. Dad told me on the way over, no one got sick, as = they were in good shape, and had just finished all their air training. = No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with mostly ex-kriegies, = and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. It got so = bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board = couldn't care less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American = soil. Dad said (and I have heard this from a number of vets) that the = sight of the Statue of Liberty was one of the finest sights in the = world. Many of the men cried when they saw it. They were home at last. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Hi to All:=20 Hope you all are well. How long would it take, on average, to = travel=20 from the States to England. I know some went in a B-17 and some went = by=20 ship. Did more crews fly or go by ship. Thank again. = =20 Brooklyn Bill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
My father went over and back by ship. When he went = over, they=20 were in convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of = three=20 weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was = good.
When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than = 5 days on=20 a Dutch ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months = in prison=20 camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying=20 career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG.
    One other thing. Dad told me on = the way=20 over, no one got sick, as they were in good shape, and had just finished = all=20 their air training. No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with = mostly=20 ex-kriegies, and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. = It got=20 so bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch=20 crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board couldn't = care=20 less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American soil. Dad said = (and I=20 have heard this from a number of vets) that the sight of the Statue of = Liberty=20 was one of the finest sights in the world. Many of the men cried when = they saw=20 it. They were home at last.
Gordy.
 
**************************************
"Our = freedom is not=20 free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L. = Alton
129=20 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1
cell 250-537-6706 = fax=20 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= ******************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 = 3:49=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no = subject)

Hi to All:=20
   Hope you all are well.  How long would it = take, on=20 average, to travel
from the States to England.  I know some = went in a=20 B-17 and some went by
ship.  Did more crews fly or go by = ship.=20  Thank again.=20 =             &= nbsp;          =20 =
           &nb= sp;         Brooklyn=20 Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:24:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:24:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <000901c0d2b7$63979320$541b4e0c@o3n4f8> Todd, it is gratifying to know that the effort was not in vain, and , that if nothing other has been accomplished, this tape has brought us all closer together. I will forward Harry Goebrechts remarks regarding the tape to the "Group" ( as opposed to "forum" , "ring", or any other term.). We are the 303rd BGA, and I feel like we are a Group. " All for one, and one for all". Thanks for letting me know, Todd. "Heads up, Mr. Jones". Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape > There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New > Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The > quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for > me... > > *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing > how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only > knew what they were in for. > *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. > *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and > muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st > USAAF raids from the base. > *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all > taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It > was tough in the E.T.O.??? > > Thanks to all involved. > > Todd- > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 15:35:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:35:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, 7POW, over Huls. Gordy ******************************* ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 14:18:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:18:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <010401c0d30a$5c42f6c0$a5194e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Gordy. I don't know what significance this photo might have had to my father. Maybe it was just a random photo. Whatever, before it was a ragged old picture of a B17. Now, there are human faces and names the photo has a new meaning. Odd , 'ey? Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little > confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of > the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, > 7POW, over Huls. > Gordy > ******************************* > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers > looks > > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white > square, > > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:34:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:34:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: James- Short note , I was a BTG in the 303rd, 358th- we flew our 35 and our nose gunner/toggelier was from San Antonio; his name was Francis X Quig, believe he is de ceased, but I think he still has relatives in the area. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:45:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:45:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 18:55:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 07:55:25 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010502075525.0096cbc0@ilhawaii.net> Bill, I wasn't on that trip, but we went over in Ile de France in september of 44. Did they still have the same lousy food. I survived on candy bars and cookies from the on board px? Jim Walling also a btg in the 358th At 12:45 PM 5/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home >on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the >first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the >Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them >jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a >wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in >knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? >Bill Carter > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:09:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: Message-ID: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first ship in after Germany surrendered Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:30:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:30:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: thanks gordy. will take a look. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:50:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:50:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Jim 14000 on board-2 meals a day, both bad! Send me your mail address, I think I might have an old photo of you taken outside a barracks-were you in the 358th? Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:51:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:51:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: reread your note and I see you were in the 358th Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 02:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:32:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000d01c0d370$e4dc13c0$e58e4d0c@o3n4f8> Spider, Please forward your tape to : Bob Rettinhouse, 760 W. Cambridge, Fresno, CA. 93705-5008. ( gunner 359th ). Thank you. I will let Bob know that the tape is on the way to him. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 06:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:56:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AF0F2FF.3170D358@attglobal.net> Yup, Spider, the Ile de France was a great ship. My Mom and Dad cruised on her many times in the post war (the one we won) period. Me, I flew home. Even piloted the plane. Have you tried the QB's in Hemet yet? CHeers! Bill Heller Dick Smith wrote: > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 08:43:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 03:43:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> After the surrender I was sent from the 303rd to the 351st at Polebrook to await transfer to the Pacific as a radar mechanic.The end of the war didn't impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned.I'm in Arizona and know a lot of combat planes were flown back to Kingman and Tucson and sold for scrap,but since the civilians had gone thru 3 1/2 years of gas rationing the government would hardly waste the fuel to bring back unneeded warplanes.Saw where a British farmer bought a surplus Westland Lysander for a few pounds just for the fuel it contained,left it sitting in his field and now it has a huge tree growing thru it.At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 13:50:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:50:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> Message-ID: > The end of the war didn't > impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) > had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned. My father flew back a brand new plane (43-39434) that had just been delivered to the 8th AF a month before the war ended. I don't think it saw any action, since it was never assigned to a bomb group. Even though brand new, they still chopped it up at Kingman. I think the Army still had plans to sell all the B-17s at that time. I think it was only after they weren't able to sell them whole that they decided to scrap them, but I may be wrong. > At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 > jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded > by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so > little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Among my father's things, I found 2 property turn in slips. One, filled out the day he left England, had things like sub-machine guns, pistols, trench knives, binoculars, etc. All but the Binoculars were listed as "EXS" , which supposedly meant "in excess of authorized allowances", but I think this inferred that they were being turned in as unnecessary (at least that is what it meant when I worked for the Army). The second turn in slip was filled out at Bradley Field, Conn, after he flew back. It had things like parachutes, life vests, etc, etc, that were used on the flight back. All these things were kept track of very carefully, then probably sold for next to nothing. Ie, it is not unlike the Army to be incredibly wasteful, but the Army generally thinks about it for a few years before being wasteful. When I worked for the Army, they even tried to sell the trash, but ended up throwing away millions of $ worth of good "excess" stuff. I know people who were on good terms with the people who threw things away, and arranged to follow them them to the dump. The "trash" was still government property until it was dumped. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:09:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE;-SURPLUS - BURNING -EXS Message-ID: <000e01c0d3f3$c98abbc0$2bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Didn't realize the "job" of burning was that wide spread. After V-E Day we had orders to recalll all clothing, parts etc for packing and shipping to SAD - reparable and serviceable parts etc including flight clothing. We had reached our deadline and all parts etc had been shipped out. The nex day or two here comes one or two of the squadrons with more flight suits and B-1 jackets. --- The pile was12-13 ft in diameter and about 5-6 foot high ----100 octane gas and a match took care of that. They even drove a Cletrac over new wing panels and put them in the scrap pile. Upsetting to say the least.. should have "liberated" a jacket! Carry on! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:26:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant
B-17F-95-BO,  42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned
410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943,
Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW,
Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 17:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:23:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c0d3ed$56d6c700$e31b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. It is curious how this photo got into the mix of the few things left from my fathers collection. His first tour was finished in mid March of '43 before the "Black Kitten" had even been delivered. I suppose there could be several valid explainations for this, however. In any case, I appreciate you and Bill Jones taking the time to look this up for me. Incidently, can anyone identify the crew members shown in "flight gear" under the photo of the Jerry Jinx ( 427th ) at the 303rd website? I have a fairly decent photo identical to the one shown. If my dad wasn't a crew member on that particular day ( very hard to tell with the heavy jackets and equipment) perhaps some one who was a member of the crew, or relative would like to have the photo. Very best to all. Lloyd. ( I will look up the 94th and stop by their site ). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 20:10:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Shane .) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:10:07 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: Hello everyone: My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much and I am very curious to learn more about his life. Shane Underwood >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > >Lloyd Grant >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, >Assigned >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 21:47:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:47:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: Message-ID: <000901c0d412$4da2f940$04914d0c@o3n4f8> Shane, welcome. My dad was in the 427th Sq. early on, but I can't help you with your question other than to suggest that you go here: http://www.303rdbga.com/ if you haven't already. There is a picture of your granddad taken in Jan. of 1944. Don't give up trying. If you have any pictures , or other memoribilia from your granddads service with the Hell Angels, they could be helpful. Good luck. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane ." To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Hello everyone: > My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of > the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, > he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a > "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other > members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 > LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John > K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active > from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I > think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town > or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because > my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If > anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much > and I am very curious to learn more about his life. > > Shane Underwood > > > >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > > > >Lloyd Grant > >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, > >Assigned > >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 00:56:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 01:16:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d42f$6d7c7bc0$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, "Flight of the Phoenix" is one of my all time favorite films. ( Gen. Stewart--Jimmy Stewart-- was one of a few Hollywood stars that actually got into the War for real. If my information is correct, he piloted a B17. I have no idea what Group he flew with). What occurred to cause the death of Mantz during the filming of this movie? I hope the question is not too far off track, for me to ask. If it is, ring me up at palidin@worldnet.att.net if you can "enlighten" me. Thanks. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ > AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough > aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They > got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz > died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the > Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa > Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. > This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 02:52:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:52:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c0d43c$d9285800$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, "Col Goebrecht". Got you mixed up with Bill Heller, for a moment. The information you forwarded is succinct, helpful, and definately appreciated. Regards. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 05:45:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:45:50 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video Message-ID: <000d01c0d455$19a00500$d7194e0c@o3n4f8> The following is reposted for those of you who are on the Molesworth Tape list. Grateful appreciation to Harry Goebrecht who took the time to research the scenes and discribe their significance. Tape #1 is on the way to Maine, Tape #2 in, or , on the way to Utah, and Tape #3 is in California. Let me know when you are ready to send it on. Lloyd Grant, palidin@worldnet.att.net. Best wishes to all. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video > The video sequence is as follows: > 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan > The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and > flew > to Kellogg, Field > 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS > 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. > It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained > their new > B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had > the nose > painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: > 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 > Oct. > They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick > Scotland > arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. > 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) > 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth > 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground > 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off > 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight > 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) > 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) > 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) > 29:12 End of tape > > B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) > At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI > Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew > Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew > Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew > Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew > Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew > Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew > Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew > The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew > One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew > The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes > Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. > Crew > Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- > (91st BG B-17) > Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew > Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew > The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew > (aka Yahoodi) > Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew > > Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron > except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet > been > named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. > 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video > ----------------------------------------------------------- > At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew > ----- 41-24535?? ? -R > Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 08:51:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I had about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he was knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our destination. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:33:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:33:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:47:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:36:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:36:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I think that was Jimmy Stewart's best role, even better than It's a Wonderful Life. Being a combat vet of the Eighth, he played the part of a veteran flier in the way only a veteran flier could. He was magnificent, especially the scene where he and the German are aguing over the use of the Kaufman starter. If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets a thumbs up from me. Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT > >After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman >(TALLMANTZ >AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough >aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. >They >got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz >died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the >Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in >Santa >Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. >This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:46:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:46:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: There is a memorial at Polebrook to Jimmy Stewart which was the 351st BG, but I don't think that was his outfit. I think his outfit went to another base before the 351st arrived. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT > >Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I >don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at >Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up >and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I >had >about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at >first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he >was >knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for >which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our >destination. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:54:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:54:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d499$51109560$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, if my information on Jim Stewart is lacking veracity, guess where it came from. Yup, the History Channel. Anyone here know a source where I can get my facts straight? I also heard that after the War ( The War we won, WHC) Col.James Stewart flew B47s in the New Blue Air Force. I need to do some reading up on Mantz too. Thanks for your reply, Mr. Rencher. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. and Paul Mantz picked me up > and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:58:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:58:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <000f01c0d499$ed6cf700$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks to you also, Bill. You can bet on this; by the end of the day I will know alot more about James Stewarts military service than I thought I did last night. Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:04:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:04:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0d49a$d0867a20$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Grief ! You mean that thing actually FLEW? One more question, and I'll let go. What kind of engine needed a cartridge to turn it over? Was it standard back up for dead batteries? Thanks for the reply , Bob Hand. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the > makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a > flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:11:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:11:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <001d01c0d49b$af154500$69184e0c@o3n4f8> I Know I'm walking on thim ice with this topic, but I am of the same opinion. ( now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....) > Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I the use of the Kaufman > starter. > > If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets > a thumbs up from me. > Kevin > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 16:54:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:54:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <3AF2D0BB.D984E42B@attglobal.net> Jimmy Stewart was a PILOT. Alos was a GROUP Commander. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:28:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:28:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <000f01c0d4a6$86c08f00$d9b34d0c@o3n4f8> I will pass this along for anyone ele who may be interested. http://www.jimmy.org/memories/content/demandingrole.html Best, Lloyd. ( and thanks to all who replied). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 17:57:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:57:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jimmy Stewart Message-ID: <6f.14bb8c67.28243976@aol.com> --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander. He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H) 23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer 453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd Combat Wing. He flew 20 B-24 combat missions. Prior to going overseas he completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a B/General. Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander.
He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H)
23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer
453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was
Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd
Combat Wing.  He flew 20 B-24 combat missions.  Prior to going overseas he  
completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew
B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a
B/General.
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 19:08:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:08:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] waste Message-ID: <22.1575f8dc.28244a0d@aol.com> Came home on the Queen Elizabeth in the middle of a HOT June.As enlisted men we carried our barracks bags which contained all our stuff plus a heavy winter overcoat,blanket and helmet liner.As we slowly pulled into New York harbor,lined with "Welcome Home!" and "Job well done!" signs and tugs and fireboats tooting and spraying water,as far astern as one could see was a floating olive drab trail of G.I. overcoats,blankets and helmet liners. Memories, Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:39:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:39:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7b.1433b26c.282497a5@aol.com> Gonna have to rent Phoenix again...too fuzzy on my recollection. Hope all is well....have a wunnerful weekend! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:47:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:47:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <6d.136fc0ed.28249975@aol.com> Got me on that cartridge back up question....sorry! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 02:29:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:29:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition came from? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:13:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:13:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. After the War, what did you do? (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are different .) This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c0d4f8$be4450e0$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> ... Or maybe, "Fire off the engine !" ? Cheers, Jack Rencher. := ) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first > line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other > services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had > no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and > pass the ammunition came from? > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:51:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:51:37 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years in community relations with a local bank. It has been a fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:29:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:29:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002101c0d50b$39750220$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years > with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the > next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing > and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years > in community relations with a local bank. It has been a > fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:41:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:41:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <49.aed16ff.2824de7c@aol.com> thanks. lloyd. very interesting. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:47:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:47:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 04:22:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:22:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c0d512$b061c920$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Spec, I didn't mean that Gary gave me the go ahead on this question. I just discussed asking it with him. I don't work for the CIA, and I am not writing a book. It is just a question. If it is offensive, PLEASE, ignore it. Hit the delete button. I thought the question was relevant, and I promise, I gave it serious thought before offering it. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual > lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:46:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:46:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was the only time I had to live. I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller and Grisham and Starr and Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't expect you to agree. I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate get a good one like Hal Suspend. Aren't you sorry you asked? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:15:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:15:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c0d522$5efe43a0$f1904d0c@o3n4f8> Not in the least bit, Mr. Rencher. Not in the least bit. I am glad that I asked, now. Your reply, and the one given by Mr. Runnels imply that there is hope beyond any other "mitigating" circumstances. I am thankful, as are many others. I hope that this makes some difference to you , and Harry Goebrecht, Bill Heller, Hal Susskind, Dick Smith, Ed Lamme, Ed Miller, Dick Johnson, and Gary Moncur, and all the rest of you "Toms, Dicks, and Harrys too numerous to name.... Thanks for the comments, Jack. Lloyd. Ps. my guess would be that you know of Robert Service, and Rudyard Kippling; a couple of other friends I am glad to know. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Friend Lloyd, > I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were > not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the > greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this > planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my > own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad > or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. > > I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change > it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try > to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. > Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and > uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I > had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the > future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was > the only time I had to live. > > I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over > 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I > went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller > and Grisham and Starr and > Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not > have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and > this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could > and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to > enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I > pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't > expect you to agree. > I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not > born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning > they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and > never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but > not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of > your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate > get a good one like Hal Suspend. > Aren't you sorry you asked? > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 09:21:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 01:21:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. Cheers! (now you know) Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > After the War, what did you do? > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > different .) > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 12:09:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:09:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> Regards, Bill. I am proud to know you. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd Grant ... > > After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated > five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new > Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, > Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA > pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the > ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became > fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. > It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, > I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with > them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to > retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good > ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I > also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. > > Cheers! (now you know) > > Bill Heller > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > > > After the War, what did you do? > > > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > > different .) > > > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > > the privilege). > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 14:16:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: <00f901c0d565$a4fe0d20$ca1b4e0c@o3n4f8> I apologize for having to ask this, but would those of you who have not seen the Molesworth tape, and anyone who might like to see it, please check in. My notes with everyones addresses and e-mails have been rendered nearly illegible. Thanks. Lloyd. ( palidin@worldnet.att.net ). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:33:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:33:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: Iloyd, I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - Clyde Hennong From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:40:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:40:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:48:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:48:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Hi all- A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy Stewart. Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff and promoted to full colonel. The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. For more info on the 453rd, go to: http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:58:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 08:58:54 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Grant, After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:54:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:54:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. 'Nuff said. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 23:40:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:40:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Lloyd Message-ID: <3c.b41aeb8.2825db6e@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I really enjoyed reading the answers to your question, What did I do after the War? Those great persons and their very interesting answers made it joy to read my e-mail. I hope many more answer your great question. Thank you for asking. P.S. I did not spell Hal Susskind's name wrong. My smart computer corrected it and I did not notice it until after it was sent. Sorry Hal. Best wishes Gang, Send Lloyd your answer and include us all. Thank you. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:40:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:40:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war References: Message-ID: <001f01c0d5a3$b3574380$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for the response, Bill. Congratulations on your up-coming great grandfatherhood. Best wishes to you and your family. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war > Hi Lloyd, > As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb > answers. > After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of > it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a > half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in > SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with > the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the > MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I > earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, > after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the > Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have > enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too > much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. > I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do > that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and > will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. > 'Nuff said. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:46:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:46:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Message-ID: <002701c0d5a4$74ba67a0$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for the lead , Mike. I will definately check it out. Walter Matthau ? I didn't know that. See what happens when you start asking questions :=) ). Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike McClanahan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart > Hi all- > > A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy > Stewart. > Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from > March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff > and promoted to full colonel. > The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. > S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. > For more info on the 453rd, go to: > http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html > > Mike McClanahan > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:50:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:50:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: Message-ID: <003501c0d5a4$f66f0e40$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Glad to oblige, Clyde. Please send your address and e-mail to me at : palidin@worldnet.att.net ( to assure your privacy). Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > Iloyd, > I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - > Clyde Hennong > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:57:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8><3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <004301c0d5a6$07d59860$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Jim, I is reassuring to see so much good come out in the aftermath of this horrendous War. My very best wishes to you and your bride. Thanks for your response. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Grant, > > After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. > > This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. > > After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. > > I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 22:17:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Texas Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <005a01c0d5a8$dad22100$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Maher, Jr. If you are monitoring the forum please get in touch. We seem to have a bit of trouble locating the Molesworth tape and I have lost your contact address. Would like to know if you still have the tape, or sent it on, and if so to whom. Thanks . Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:28:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Message-ID: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape and my address is; James L Phillips 1906 Dorchester ave' Kalamazoo; Michigan 49001-5217 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:36:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:36:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001801c0d5bc$322c35e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Got you, James. Thanks. ( one of my critters spilled a cup of coffee on my notes). Bill Jones is sending the tape to Edward Frank in Reading , PA. so it should be in your neighborhood ere long. I will let you know when Ed is ready to send it along. best regards, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES PHILLIPS" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape > and my address is; James L Phillips > 1906 Dorchester ave' > Kalamazoo; Michigan > 49001-5217 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:50:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:50:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c0d5be$366ba260$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved the tape. I remember our conversation about where to send the tape next. Can you help me out with some info? I remember that it took a long time for Bill Owen to get the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you folks having any trouble with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my notes rendering them almost illegible). ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Patrick Maher" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Please add me to the route! > William Patrick Maher Jr. > 1802 Tulane Drive > Richardson, TX 75081 > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > crew.) > > Regards. > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > this > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > and Donald Kehne > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > his sake , I am truly > > > happy to see the response. > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > quality, but the content. > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > lots of great shots > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > will go to Bill > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > pass it around and > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > again, Don, thanks > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 01:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:24:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians Message-ID: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours truly.) Cheers to all, and thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 04:56:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:56:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, or if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours > truly.) > Cheers to all, and thank you. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:19:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:19:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <