From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:03:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam Message-ID: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at the subscriber list from the info page: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001501c0d1cf$4b7d1d20$21f833cf@richards> LLOYD: THE CONTROL CABLES WERE VULNERABLE TO BATTLE DAMAGE . AS A LAST RESORT YOU COULD FLY THE AIRPLANE ON AUTO PILOT AS THE SERVOS FOR EACH CONTROL WERE AT THE GIVEN CONTROL OR VERY CLOSE THEY RAN ON ELECTRIC CURRENT SUPPLIED FROM THE AUTO PILOT. I KNOW OF SEVERAL PILOTED WHO SUCCESSFULLY FLEW HOME ON AUTO PILOT AND EVEN LANDED THE PLANE. SPIDER P.S. I FLEW THE B17 AFTER THE WAR IN THE 3171ST ELECTRONIC RESEARCH SQUADRON AT ROME NY "GRIFFIS AFB." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:43:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AEDF8A5.26BA3A4F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Re control cables, etc. On a mission, the pilot turned on his AFCE and their servo motors were close to the point of actuation of various controls. If your cables were shot out you could use the AFCE. One time my brother landed his B17 at Molesworth with all the cables laying on the floor the length of the fuselage. He did it all with AFCE. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at > approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I > will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage > of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail > sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and > equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in > flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the > incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots > and the quality of training all crew members recieved? > Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut > up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 00:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:43:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 01:15:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:15:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker Message-ID: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he had passed away. Don't know just when. Ed From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:15:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:15:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker References: <001301c0d1d3$d9b81b40$2e2764d8@computer> Message-ID: <000701c0d1dc$33c913c0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Ed. I am glad that J.C. Barker survived to live out his life. I don't know much about him, except that on that one day he and Roy Smith saved the life of my father and at least seven other men. The story my dad told me was not very "pretty". It haunts me in away. None-the-less... there are never enough words in the dictionary to properly define the admiration and gratitude, nor, the esteem we have for everyone of you. I hope you understand. Very best, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Lamme" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Barker > Lloyd - regarding John Barker. He survived the war and was an active member > of the 303rd Association until the early nineties at which time I read he > had passed away. Don't know just when. > > Ed > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:31:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: <15.13858ff5.281f529f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c0d1de$f6139fc0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, sir. Desperate , or, brave, (likely both) your engineer is typical of many untold stories. I genuinely appreciate your comments on the subject. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > Talking about the cables in the B-17 - Coming back from a raid we were hit > with something and froze the servo "box" ane I couldnt keep the nose down > withojt throtletiong back and losing the formation - the engineer went back > and found the trouble and cut - bent - broke the cable tiying it to the main > cable - with the only tool on board - a pair of pliers the only tool he > always caried with him - and let me pull back up in formation and on home! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:48:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:48:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam References: <3AED9AD9.21240.B00A32@localhost> Message-ID: <003301c0d1e0$d7a702a0$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, and all, "paranoia strikes deep..." as the song says. Why someone gets their "jollies" from trying to ruin a beautiful thing like the internet is a bit depressing. I guess there will always be something evil forever envious of what is good. Grant. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] More on Spam > > I have changed a setting in the mail program that handles our talk > list so that email addresses are not shown in the normal format. > Mine now shows as "glm at 303rdbga.com." It may help if some > automated program can get in and harvest them. Take a look at > the subscriber list from the info page: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 02:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:54:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing References: <54.13c0cf3c.281f43ba@aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c0d1e1$a6fcb540$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Don't believe a word of it , Bob. :---)0 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing More "how we got to England." Perusal of my records shows travel time from Kearny, Nebr. to Prestwick, Scotland: B-17G -Aircraft # 42-97238 (Wonder what it's ultimate fate was?) 3/11/44 - Depart Kearny, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 50 min. 3/21/44 - Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Presque Isle, ME AFB.........2 hrs, 20 min. 3/22/44 - Depart Presque Isle, Arrive Goose Bay, Lab…………….4 hrs, 35 min. 3/24/44 - Depart Goose Bay, Lab. Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 30 min. 3/26/44 - Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Prestwick, Scot........6 hrs, 35 min. Total flying time: 29:50 (Sure hated to give up that bird!) Note: Our stop in Presque Isle was a result of a "mysterious problem" with our radios. Fact was we just hated to leave the USA, so landed to have "problem" fixed, figuring if they probed enough they would find something. Sure enough, it worked, as they found a nonexistent fault; we RONd there and departed the next morning Regards, Bob Kerr From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 05:12:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:12:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. Thanks, Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to date > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's offer > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pfico" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > your > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > > viewers please? > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > Regards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 04:58:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:58:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Hi Lloyd, > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government wouldn't > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > Thanks, > Gordy. > > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first > > California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to > date > > including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's > offer > > into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "pfico" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > > your > > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list > of > > > viewers please? > > > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 06:56:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:56:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> <00d001c0d1f8$e4c84a80$4209f4cc@e0y0k4> <004301c0d1f3$0769b480$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000f01c0d203$6e030380$b909f4cc@e0y0k4> Double eh, eh? Nice of you to do this for all of us, Lloyd. Cheers to you, too, mate. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Gordy, the blessings of socialism in its most democratic venue. Down here, > if you don't have insurance, you have two options: Die; or, get better. > I understand what you are saying tho. As long as you still want to see the > tape, I personally guarantee that you will , ( Aiey?). Cheers, Gordy. > Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Hi Lloyd, > > I was hoping the list would slim down a bit, and then I'd get my name on > > when everyone was done. That may take a while, so you might as well put me > > down at the end. I have lots on the go right now, so just send it when > > everyone has had a chance. It may cost a little extra to send it to me in > > Canada, too, so I'll reimburse whoever sends it. > > One thing, when sending anything to me up here, is to not put any value on > > the package, ie. call it a gift, which it really is. Our government > wouldn't > > miss a chance to charge me tax or duty on something entering the country. > > Thanks, > > Gordy. > > > > ************************************** > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 129 Mariko Place > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > > gordy@saltspring.com > > ************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 09:48:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 04:48:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 13:29:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:29:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob re 43-38737 Message-ID: Thank you, Moofy, for your info on #737....she did herself proud, I guess you'd say and the Kingman chopper-upper was more than she deserved. Hope you are well in health and spirit.....Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:34:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:34:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 16:49:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:49:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: China Rescue Mission Message-ID: <002001c0d256$4c578b40$5c3f22d1@billowen> ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: China Rescue Mission > I think the members will find this very interesting reading. I did. Bill Owen > > > AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE > > > CHINA RESCUE MISSION > > > April 12, 2001 > > > By Captain Guy Greider > > > Continental Airlines > > > Since the mid-air collision on April 1, 2001 > > > between a U.S. Navy EP-3 surveillance aircraft and a > > > Chinese jet fighter, I had watched the news with mild > > > interest. This was mostly due to the proximity of Guam to > > > China. I never dreamed that I would play a role in this > > > intensely watched international drama. > > > Somewhere in the negotiations between the United > > > States and the Chinese Governments, it was decided that a > > > civilian aircraft should be sent to retrieve the 24 > > > crewmembers being detained on Hainan Island, China. A > > > call was made to Continental Airlines headquarters in > > > Houston, Texas. Continental was chosen because of its > > > Guam base and its ability to launch this kind of > > > operation at a moment s notice. From there, the operation > > > took shape through the tireless efforts of many people > > > working behind the scenes in a coordinated effort between > > > the airline, the military, and the State Department. > > > On Saturday, April 7, 2001, I received a call at > > > home from Captain Ralph Freeman, Continental Micronesia > > > Director of Flight Operations. Ralph told me that the > > > military wanted to charter one of our jets to conduct a > > > rescue mission and asked if I would be one of the > > > crewmembers. I said yes without hesitation. > > > Later we were told that we would need to get passport > > > pictures taken in case the Chinese Government required > > > visas. We got the required photos and were under the > > > impression that we would leave immediately. However, the > > > negotiations slowed over the demand from the Chinese that > > > the U.S. issue an apology that the U.S. was unwilling to > > > give. Meanwhile, the Continental crew remained on call 24 > > > hours a day. Our Uniforms were laid out and our bags were > > > packed and waiting by the door. > > > On Wednesday evening April 11, 2001, at about 6:30 PM > > > Ralph called again to say that the two parties were very > > > close to an agreement to release the U.S. crew and to > > > come to the airport. Upon arrival, we were given a > > > briefing sheet listing the information that we would need > > > to conduct the flight. > > > We would carry a Repatriation Team consisting of Navy, > > > Marine Corps, and Air Force specialists, 14 people in > > > all. Doctors, Psychologists, and communications people > > > with lots of gear showed up on the ramp near the > > > airplane, ready to board. They were all dressed in casual > > > civilian clothes. > > > The 155-seat jet was fitted with 2 full stretcher kits > > > bolted in over rows of seats complete with Oxygen tanks > > > and I.V. bottles. They did not know the condition of the > > > 24 detained crewmembers and they were not going to take > > > any chances. They were prepared. > > > When our crew was fully assembled, it consisted of 11 > > > people. 2 pilots to fly the jet and an extra to provide > > > relief because of the extensive flight time involved. > > > They were Captain Tom Pinardo, Captain Pierre Frenay and > > > I. We also carried 5 very experienced Flight Attendants. > > > They were Debbie Percell, Susanne Hendricks, Jean Tang, > > > Cynthia Iverson, and Beverly Haines. Our 2 onboard > > > mechanics were Peter Lum and Julius Aguilo. Our load > > > planner was Mike Torres. > > > At about 9:30 PM we received a call asking that we arrive > > > in China no earlier than 6:00 AM, just about sunrise. It > > > was obvious that the entire exchange would be > > > photographed and they wanted daylight conditions. We > > > estimated that a 2:15 AM departure from Guam would put us > > > on the ground in Haikou precisely at 6:00 AM local China > > > time. (2 hours earlier than Guam) Some of us just stayed > > > on the plane, others accepted the company s invitation to > > > come to the Continental President s Club, a local VIP > > > lounge at the airport to try to get some rest. It was > > > difficult to get any rest with our much-anticipated > > > mission so near. > > > By 1:00 AM the pilots were back in the briefing room > > > going over the weather, flight plan, fuel requirements > > > and everything else that goes into a flight. Again, we > > > loaded up the airplane and finally departed Guam > > > International at precisely 2:15 AM. > > > The stretcher kits and medical gear were not the only > > > special additions to the airplane. The company had loaded > > > a special file into the navigation database of the flight > > > management computer (FMC). This allowed us to gain access > > > to navigation data needed to operate in this part of > > > China, which is not in our normal route structure. The > > > Repatriation Team carried sophisticated equipment to > > > communicate with the military and government officials > > > that would monitor our progress throughout the flight. > > > The route of flight took us straight west from Guam > > > toward the Philippines along the G467 airway. About half > > > way across we turned north directly toward Hong Kong. > > > This routing was designed to avoid flying through > > > Taiwanese airspace, something that the Chinese could > > > consider offensive. > > > Approaching the Chinese coastline, we contacted Hong Kong > > > radar control. After establishing radar contact with us, > > > the controller gave us a short cut to expedite his > > > traffic flow. This was bad because it cut off > > > considerable distance and would result in arriving too > > > early. We compensated by slowing our airspeed until the > > > computer again estimated a 6:00 AM arrival. The instant > > > we turned across the short cut, the interphone rang from > > > the back of the plane. They wanted to know why we had > > > deviated from the flight plan. We told them it was due to > > > Hong Kong traffic and that we had adjusted our airspeed. > > > We were still on schedule. > > > Now we were approaching our destination, Haikou airport > > > on Hainan Island. Captain Pierre Frenay was at the > > > controls. The weather was 2000-ft overcast with 5 miles > > > visibility and light winds out of the east. Pierre made > > > an ILS approach to and landed on runway 9. Haikou airport > > > is much the same as many other airports in the world that > > > serve jet transport aircraft. It has an 11,000-ft runway > > > with standard lighting and navigational facilities. We > > > touched down at 6:07 AM. The first early morning light > > > was beginning to illuminate the sky. > > > The local air traffic controller instructed us to follow > > > a vehicle that was beside us on an adjacent taxiway. He > > > led us to a remote part of the airport, away from the > > > main terminal buildings. Once we had parked and shut down > > > the engines, we saw many uniformed Chinese military > > > personnel and vehicles. They did not appear to have > > > weapons. Portable stairs were brought up to the airplane > > > and we opened the main cabin door. > > > The Repatriation Team that we carried had been briefed to > > > close down all of their communications equipment prior to > > > landing and put it away. They were also briefed to remain > > > in their seats in a non-threatening posture in case the > > > Chinese military came aboard. The first and only person > > > to come aboard was an Air China employee. He spoke > > > English and was to act as the translator between our > > > group and the Chinese military. He instructed us to have > > > everyone fill out both arrival and departure documents. > > > He collected all of our passports and left the aircraft. > > > Before he left, he said that only one person at a time > > > would be allowed to deplane. > > > Peter Lum, one of our mechanics went down to supervise > > > the re-fueling and servicing of the airplane. When that > > > was complete, I went down to do the walk-around > > > inspection. I did this rather slowly because I wanted to > > > have a chance to look around. While I was out on the > > > ramp, a skirmish developed between people who were trying > > > to climb a wall to photograph our aircraft and the > > > Chinese police. Somehow, CNN managed to carry our arrival > > > and departure live. > > > Once the airplane was serviced and ready to go, we looked > > > anxiously around for any sign of the buses that carried > > > our 24 detainees. Before that could happen however, we > > > had a problem to deal with. A U.S. military General who > > > was on the scene to assist in the transfer came storming > > > up the stairs and demanded to speak with the Captain. Tom > > > Pinardo responded. The General said that the entire > > > mission was now in jeopardy. A document called the > > > general declaration, which is standard on all > > > international flights had listed the destination as > > > Haikou, China R.O.C. The initials ROC stand for Republic > > > of China which is .. Taiwan! The Chinese were very upset > > > over this. Tom quickly crossed out ROC and replaced it > > > with P.R.O.C. the Peoples Republic of China. This seemed > > > to satisfy them. > > > With the airplane ready to go and the paperwork complete, > > > 2 buses pulled up and the 24 U.S. service men and women > > > saluted as they bolted up the stairs and settled into the > > > back of the plane. When the last one was aboard, our > > > passports were returned to us. The stairs were withdrawn, > > > the cabin door closed, and we started the engines and > > > departed. It was my turn at the controls. > > > Once airborne heading straight south we broke through the > > > clouds into the bright sunshine. Pierre made a PA > > > announcement that we were over international waters and > > > leaving Chinese airspace. A great cheer rose from the > > > back of the airplane. A short while later we received a > > > telephone patch over the HF radio from Mr. Joseph > > > Prueher, U.S Ambassador to China. He wanted to speak with > > > Lt. Shane Osborne the 26 year old EP-3 Aircraft > > > Commander. Lt. Osborne came to the cockpit and put on a > > > headset. The Ambassador told him that on behalf of the > > > President of the United States and the entire country he > > > wanted to say welcome home . He went on to say how proud > > > he was of everything the crew had done from their > > > airmanship in saving the lives of the crew and aircraft, > > > to their conduct on the ground once they had been > > > detained. They had truly done an excellent job. > > > After his conversation with the Ambassador, Lt. Osborne > > > stayed in the cockpit for quite a while and told us his > > > story pilot to pilot of what had happened during and > > > immediately after the mid-air collision with the F-8 > > > Chinese fighter. The fighter came up under their left > > > wing. This pilot made 2 very close passes previously that > > > day. He apparently misjudged the intercept and his > > > vertical stabilizer struck the outboard left propeller on > > > the EP-3. The U.S. plane was in straight and level flight > > > on autopilot at the time. > > > The fighter broke into two pieces and plunged into the > > > sea. The U.S. plane rolled to the left almost inverted, > > > the pilot lost control and they began to lose altitude. > > > The Chinese fighter had raked back across the fuselage > > > and knocked off the nose cone causing the aircraft to > > > buffet wildly. When the nose cone departed the aircraft > > > it collided with and damaged the number 4 propeller on > > > the right wing. The collision punctured the pressure > > > vessel and the EP-3 depressurized. The collision also > > > knocked off the pitot tubes eliminating airspeed and > > > altitude indications in the cockpit. It also knocked off > > > the forward bracket for the HF radio antenna. The antenna > > > then flew back and wrapped around the tail. > > > We were almost upside down and totally out of control > > > Osborne told us. The dive continued and some crew members > > > donned parachutes. At about 8,000 feet, Osborne regained > > > straight and level flight. They considered ditching the > > > aircraft in the South China Sea but dismissed that option > > > because it was certain to result in loss of life. They > > > headed for the nearest land, Hainan Island. The U.S. crew > > > now faced the most difficult landing of their lives. They > > > made numerous mayday, mayday, mayday radio calls on > > > internationally recognized emergency frequencies. The > > > Chinese did not respond. Somehow, they managed to get the > > > airplane on the ground. > > > Their next immediate task was to destroy the sensitive > > > electronic surveillance equipment aboard the EP-3. > > > Meanwhile the Chinese military had approached the > > > aircraft in vehicles and were yelling at them through > > > loudspeakers to deplane. The next 11 days would be a very > > > uncertain time for them. > > > When we met them, they told us that they had not been > > > abused or mistreated. Their food was adequate and > > > plentiful. Sort of like eating in a Chinese restaurant > > > every day one of them said. On the forth day, they got > > > some coffee. On the fifth day, some cokes were provided. > > > The crew did not know what kind of transport would be > > > provided for their return home. They were pleased and > > > surprised to see a chartered airliner from the United > > > States. > > > The rest of the flight from Haikou to Anderson AFB on > > > Guam was uneventful. During the 5 hour flight the crew > > > was treated to the movie Men of Honor and enjoyed a > > > first class meal. We did not know it at the time but our > > > landing at Anderson AFB was carried live on national > > > television. > > > We taxied to the parking ramp at Anderson where many > > > people had turned out to welcome all of us home. > > > Individuals and families with kids, both military and > > > civilian waved American flags and cheered, showing > > > support for the returning U.S. spy plane crew. > > > Once the 24 U.S. crewmembers and the military > > > Repatriation Team had deplaned at Anderson, they > > > immediately boarded waiting buses and were whisked away. > > > The Continental crew then became the object of intense > > > media attention. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, Reuters and > > > various print media interviewed us. A dizzying swirl of > > > attention after a very long day. > > > We were happy, tired, and pleased that the mission was so > > > successful as Tom flew the last segment, a 10-minute > > > flight back to Guam International Airport. This time our > > > passengers included Bill Meehan, President of Continental > > > Micronesia, Guam Governor Carl Gutierrez, Lieutenant > > > Governor Bordallo and others. > > > We thought the day was just about over but we had one > > > more surprise in store. After landing, we were given a > > > hero s welcome of our own. The airport fire department > > > was in place to give us the traditional water cannon > > > salute, a rainbow arch of water for us to taxi under. A > > > reception was held at the gate with food, balloons, > > > commemorative plaques, and more media interviews with the > > > local television station. This was very heady stuff. > > > As I look back on this one of a kind operation. It could > > > not have happened without the tremendous effort and > > > skills of many. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:24:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:24:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: Message-ID: <005601c0d25e$bbf79e60$4f09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Spec, No, I'm a long way from there. I live on an island off the Canadian west coast, between the BC mainland and Vancouver Island. Salt Spring Island is in the Strait of Georgia (Juan de Fuca). Lovely place, and has the best climate in Canada. Hardly any snow in the winter (very rarely). Our climate is classed as a temperate rain forest, but it rains only in the winter. The summers are warm and dry. If you want to have a real look, check out this link: http://www.gulfislands.com/ By the way, I am just starting to read "Three Engines, Half a Wing, and a Prayer", revised edition. It sure is a well written book, and hard to put down. It takes a while to read though, because I keep going back to read things as I go. I may have a question or two for you guys. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > gordy ,are you in toronto metro area? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 17:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:12:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables References: Message-ID: <001c01c0d259$7fb40380$ecb34d0c@o3n4f8> Anne, did I forget to add "skillful" and "resourceful". From what I have read, many young ( and some not so young ) flight engineers proved their mettle. I am proud to share the last name. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Control cables > That young Flight Engineer of Rasinman's ( Gilbert Grant ), was brave and > possibly desperate, at the time of that particular flight, when he cut, bent, > broke and tied that cable with the only tool that he had, a pair of pliers. > His experience at Molesworth, as engineer on Pilot Henning's plane, had a > strong influence on the rest of his life ... there wasn't much that he > couldn't fix without a pair of pliers. > On the subject of transatlantic crossing, he returned to the U.S. aboard the > Queen Elizabeth (cabin B-125) out of Southampton, England to New York on Aug. > 25, 1945. I don't know how long the voyage took, but he was very glad to > touch firm ground when they arrived in New York. Anne Grant > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 21:16:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (James Sontag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:16:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <200105012016.NAA26591@mail5.bigmailbox.com> My name is James Sontag and I'm 35 years old. I live in San Antonio Texas and collect books on Unit Histories and the air war from World War II. I have never been in the military but have great admiration for all who served our country and those that still do. I am happily married and my wife will object to me spending so much on books. As I always tell her, there are worse things to spend my money on and I also add that I'm doing this for her future, alot of the books are rare and will only go up in value. I'm excited about this group and can't wait to hear from all. Thanks! James Sontag ------------------------------------------------------------ The Official Iron Maiden Website: http://www.ironmaiden.com More Metal at: http://www.metal-is.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 1 23:57:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:57:46 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: <20010501225747.KQMK6429.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Welcome Jim, a lot of us spent time in San Antonio during the war. I was there for Army Air Corps Classification in the spring of 1944. Then to Midland for Advanced Bombardier School. Hope you enjoy 303rd- Talk. Best regards, ...Bill Runnels, bombardier, 303rd BG, 360th Squadron. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:50:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:50:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for me... *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only knew what they were in for. *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st USAAF raids from the base. *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It was tough in the E.T.O.??? Thanks to all involved. Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:53:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:53:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <36.15299e74.281df472@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b501c0d2bc$9a100680$2309f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, My father went over and back by ship. When he went over, they were in = convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of three = weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was good. When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than 5 days on a Dutch = ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months in prison = camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG. One other thing. Dad told me on the way over, no one got sick, as = they were in good shape, and had just finished all their air training. = No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with mostly ex-kriegies, = and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. It got so = bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board = couldn't care less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American = soil. Dad said (and I have heard this from a number of vets) that the = sight of the Statue of Liberty was one of the finest sights in the = world. Many of the men cried when they saw it. They were home at last. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Hi to All:=20 Hope you all are well. How long would it take, on average, to = travel=20 from the States to England. I know some went in a B-17 and some went = by=20 ship. Did more crews fly or go by ship. Thank again. = =20 Brooklyn Bill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
My father went over and back by ship. When he went = over, they=20 were in convoy, and dodging subs, etc. That trip took the better part of = three=20 weeks, but everyone was in good spirits, and morale was = good.
When he came home, in June of '45, it took less than = 5 days on=20 a Dutch ship, from a northern France port. He had just spent 19 months = in prison=20 camp, after being shot down in Oct. of '43, only about a month into his = flying=20 career, as a tailgunner with the 91st BG.
    One other thing. Dad told me on = the way=20 over, no one got sick, as they were in good shape, and had just finished = all=20 their air training. No one was very queezy. On the way back, he was with = mostly=20 ex-kriegies, and ground crews, and everyone got sick and had the shits. = It got=20 so bad, that people were puking and pooping over the side. I guess the = Dutch=20 crew were none too pleased, but most of the US airmen on board couldn't = care=20 less. They just wanted to plant their feet on American soil. Dad said = (and I=20 have heard this from a number of vets) that the sight of the Statue of = Liberty=20 was one of the finest sights in the world. Many of the men cried when = they saw=20 it. They were home at last.
Gordy.
 
**************************************
"Our = freedom is not=20 free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L. = Alton
129=20 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1
cell 250-537-6706 = fax=20 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= ******************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 = 3:49=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no = subject)

Hi to All:=20
   Hope you all are well.  How long would it = take, on=20 average, to travel
from the States to England.  I know some = went in a=20 B-17 and some went by
ship.  Did more crews fly or go by = ship.=20  Thank again.=20 =             &= nbsp;          =20 =
           &nb= sp;         Brooklyn=20 Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C0D280.C0564520-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 04:24:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:24:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5BCF@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <000901c0d2b7$63979320$541b4e0c@o3n4f8> Todd, it is gratifying to know that the effort was not in vain, and , that if nothing other has been accomplished, this tape has brought us all closer together. I will forward Harry Goebrechts remarks regarding the tape to the "Group" ( as opposed to "forum" , "ring", or any other term.). We are the 303rd BGA, and I feel like we are a Group. " All for one, and one for all". Thanks for letting me know, Todd. "Heads up, Mr. Jones". Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape > There was a query where are the Molesworth tape's, one is departing New > Jersey tomorrow en-route to Maine (Re-tracing the ETO ferry route!). The > quality of the color images blew me away! The things that stood out for > me... > > *** The candid shot's of the factory fresh B-17F's at Kellogg Field, amazing > how much USAAF yellow paint was used to "Decorate" the A/C. If they only > knew what they were in for. > *** The air to air footage, tight formation's and contrails. > *** The footage around "Early" Molesworth (Man was that place barren and > muddy) with a leftover A-20 Havoc bomber that most likely flew in the 1st > USAAF raids from the base. > *** The shot's taken around the English countryside, Where were they all > taken? It's very hilly terrain. Hmmmm perfect weather, Girls, a pool ... It > was tough in the E.T.O.??? > > Thanks to all involved. > > Todd- > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 15:35:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:35:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, 7POW, over Huls. Gordy ******************************* ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 14:18:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:18:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <009f01c0d315$39889440$8509f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <010401c0d30a$5c42f6c0$a5194e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Gordy. I don't know what significance this photo might have had to my father. Maybe it was just a random photo. Whatever, before it was a ragged old picture of a B17. Now, there are human faces and names the photo has a new meaning. Odd , 'ey? Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > I'm not sure if you got a reply yet, Lloyd, as my email is a little > confused, but if those tables are correct, the plane is "Black Kitten", of > the 94th BG. It went down on the 22nd of June, '43, McFarland pilot, 3KIA, > 7POW, over Huls. > Gordy > ******************************* > ************************************** > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers > looks > > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white > square, > > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:34:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:34:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] About Me! Message-ID: James- Short note , I was a BTG in the 303rd, 358th- we flew our 35 and our nose gunner/toggelier was from San Antonio; his name was Francis X Quig, believe he is de ceased, but I think he still has relatives in the area. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 17:45:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:45:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 18:55:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 07:55:25 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010502075525.0096cbc0@ilhawaii.net> Bill, I wasn't on that trip, but we went over in Ile de France in september of 44. Did they still have the same lousy food. I survived on candy bars and cookies from the on board px? Jim Walling also a btg in the 358th At 12:45 PM 5/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home >on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the >first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the >Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them >jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a >wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in >knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? >Bill Carter > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:09:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: Message-ID: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first ship in after Germany surrendered Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came home > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of them > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was a > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested in > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 00:30:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:30:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: thanks gordy. will take a look. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:50:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:50:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: Jim 14000 on board-2 meals a day, both bad! Send me your mail address, I think I might have an old photo of you taken outside a barracks-were you in the 358th? Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 2 23:51:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:51:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: reread your note and I see you were in the 358th Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 02:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:32:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000d01c0d370$e4dc13c0$e58e4d0c@o3n4f8> Spider, Please forward your tape to : Bob Rettinhouse, 760 W. Cambridge, Fresno, CA. 93705-5008. ( gunner 359th ). Thank you. I will let Bob know that the tape is on the way to him. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 06:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:56:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: <001401c0d35c$ebf185a0$3cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AF0F2FF.3170D358@attglobal.net> Yup, Spider, the Ile de France was a great ship. My Mom and Dad cruised on her many times in the post war (the one we won) period. Me, I flew home. Even piloted the plane. Have you tried the QB's in Hemet yet? CHeers! Bill Heller Dick Smith wrote: > Spider Was on the Isle de France arrived in N.Y.. in Early May 1945 first > ship in after Germany surrendered > Spider Smith< spider@ivic.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > Just a little historical note--I and the bulk of our original crew came > home > > on the Ile de France( now on the botom from target practice), we were the > > first ship in NY after VE Day; and the bulk of our passengers were the > > Canadian First Army who had been overseas for over 5years and many of > them > > jumped ship at NY rather than take the slow boat to Halifax-the Statue was > a > > wonderful sight to a 19 year old IA small town boy. Would be interested > in > > knowing if any of the rest of you were on the same trip? > > Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 08:43:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 03:43:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> After the surrender I was sent from the 303rd to the 351st at Polebrook to await transfer to the Pacific as a radar mechanic.The end of the war didn't impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned.I'm in Arizona and know a lot of combat planes were flown back to Kingman and Tucson and sold for scrap,but since the civilians had gone thru 3 1/2 years of gas rationing the government would hardly waste the fuel to bring back unneeded warplanes.Saw where a British farmer bought a surplus Westland Lysander for a few pounds just for the fuel it contained,left it sitting in his field and now it has a huge tree growing thru it.At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 13:50:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:50:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <7f.13b16e4f.28226623@aol.com> Message-ID: > The end of the war didn't > impress procurement and they kept sending over brand new B17's.Rumor(M.P.'s) > had it they were simply towed to a secluded spot and burned. My father flew back a brand new plane (43-39434) that had just been delivered to the 8th AF a month before the war ended. I don't think it saw any action, since it was never assigned to a bomb group. Even though brand new, they still chopped it up at Kingman. I think the Army still had plans to sell all the B-17s at that time. I think it was only after they weren't able to sell them whole that they decided to scrap them, but I may be wrong. > At Polebrook I saw 10 ft.piles of B-4 > jackets,cases of "K"rations,new fatigues,office furniture,etc.burned,guarded > by M.P.'s with carbines while townspeople watched.The English had so > little,they sure could have used the food and clothing. Among my father's things, I found 2 property turn in slips. One, filled out the day he left England, had things like sub-machine guns, pistols, trench knives, binoculars, etc. All but the Binoculars were listed as "EXS" , which supposedly meant "in excess of authorized allowances", but I think this inferred that they were being turned in as unnecessary (at least that is what it meant when I worked for the Army). The second turn in slip was filled out at Bradley Field, Conn, after he flew back. It had things like parachutes, life vests, etc, etc, that were used on the flight back. All these things were kept track of very carefully, then probably sold for next to nothing. Ie, it is not unlike the Army to be incredibly wasteful, but the Army generally thinks about it for a few years before being wasteful. When I worked for the Army, they even tried to sell the trash, but ended up throwing away millions of $ worth of good "excess" stuff. I know people who were on good terms with the people who threw things away, and arranged to follow them them to the dump. The "trash" was still government property until it was dumped. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:09:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE;-SURPLUS - BURNING -EXS Message-ID: <000e01c0d3f3$c98abbc0$2bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Didn't realize the "job" of burning was that wide spread. After V-E Day we had orders to recalll all clothing, parts etc for packing and shipping to SAD - reparable and serviceable parts etc including flight clothing. We had reached our deadline and all parts etc had been shipped out. The nex day or two here comes one or two of the squadrons with more flight suits and B-1 jackets. --- The pile was12-13 ft in diameter and about 5-6 foot high ----100 octane gas and a match took care of that. They even drove a Cletrac over new wing panels and put them in the scrap pile. Upsetting to say the least.. should have "liberated" a jacket! Carry on! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 18:26:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant
B-17F-95-BO,  42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned
410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943,
Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW,
Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland --part1_9e.13c79682.2822eec1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 17:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:23:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c0d3ed$56d6c700$e31b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. It is curious how this photo got into the mix of the few things left from my fathers collection. His first tour was finished in mid March of '43 before the "Black Kitten" had even been delivered. I suppose there could be several valid explainations for this, however. In any case, I appreciate you and Bill Jones taking the time to look this up for me. Incidently, can anyone identify the crew members shown in "flight gear" under the photo of the Jerry Jinx ( 427th ) at the 303rd website? I have a fairly decent photo identical to the one shown. If my dad wasn't a crew member on that particular day ( very hard to tell with the heavy jackets and equipment) perhaps some one who was a member of the crew, or relative would like to have the photo. Very best to all. Lloyd. ( I will look up the 94th and stop by their site ). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 20:10:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Shane .) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:10:07 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 Message-ID: Hello everyone: My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much and I am very curious to learn more about his life. Shane Underwood >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > >Lloyd Grant >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, >Assigned >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 3 21:47:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:47:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: Message-ID: <000901c0d412$4da2f940$04914d0c@o3n4f8> Shane, welcome. My dad was in the 427th Sq. early on, but I can't help you with your question other than to suggest that you go here: http://www.303rdbga.com/ if you haven't already. There is a picture of your granddad taken in Jan. of 1944. Don't give up trying. If you have any pictures , or other memoribilia from your granddads service with the Hell Angels, they could be helpful. Good luck. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane ." To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Hello everyone: > My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of SS Clifford B. Underwood of > the 303rd Bomb Group, 427 Division. He flew 29 missions throughout Euope, > he was stationed in england, he was a tailgunner and as you may know a > "Hells Angle". His commanding officer was 1 LT. Dean L. Barnes, the other > members of his crew are: 2 LT. William A. Roode, 2 LT. Everett Z. Randall, 2 > LT. Albert G. Raistrick, SS. John R. Chandler, TS. Edward J. Doyle, SS. John > K Price, SS. Craig W. Winters, and TS. Willie T. Sparks. Cliff was active > from 1942 through 1945 although he had completed 29 missions before 1945, I > think. His hometown was in Missouri, I believe it was either Fredrick Town > or Raleigh. The reason I am writing all of this to the 303 rd, is because > my grandfather, Clifford B. Underwood passed away on Febuary 8th, 2001. If > anyone knows who my grandfather is please contact me, I miss him very much > and I am very curious to learn more about his life. > > Shane Underwood > > > >From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:26:25 EDT > > > >Lloyd Grant > >B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, > >Assigned > >410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > >Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > >Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 00:56:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 01:16:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <68.e825e8a.28234a2e@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d42f$6d7c7bc0$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, "Flight of the Phoenix" is one of my all time favorite films. ( Gen. Stewart--Jimmy Stewart-- was one of a few Hollywood stars that actually got into the War for real. If my information is correct, he piloted a B17. I have no idea what Group he flew with). What occurred to cause the death of Mantz during the filming of this movie? I hope the question is not too far off track, for me to ask. If it is, ring me up at palidin@worldnet.att.net if you can "enlighten" me. Thanks. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman (TALLMANTZ > AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough > aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. They > got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz > died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the > Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in Santa > Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. > This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 02:52:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:52:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 References: <9e.13c79682.2822eec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c0d43c$d9285800$3b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, "Col Goebrecht". Got you mixed up with Bill Heller, for a moment. The information you forwarded is succinct, helpful, and definately appreciated. Regards. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE" B-17 42-30240 > Lloyd Grant > B-17F-95-BO, 42-30240 "Black Kitten" Delivered to USAAF 1 May 1943, Assigned > 410th BS/94th BG(H) Earls Clone & Bury St. Edmunds, England 07 June 1943, > Shot down by German Fighters, Huls, Germany 22 June 1943, 3 KIA & 7 POW, > Pilot 2Lt Jack R. McFarland > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 05:45:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:45:50 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video Message-ID: <000d01c0d455$19a00500$d7194e0c@o3n4f8> The following is reposted for those of you who are on the Molesworth Tape list. Grateful appreciation to Harry Goebrecht who took the time to research the scenes and discribe their significance. Tape #1 is on the way to Maine, Tape #2 in, or , on the way to Utah, and Tape #3 is in California. Let me know when you are ready to send it on. Lloyd Grant, palidin@worldnet.att.net. Best wishes to all. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video > The video sequence is as follows: > 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan > The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and > flew > to Kellogg, Field > 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS > 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. > It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained > their new > B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had > the nose > painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: > 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 > Oct. > They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick > Scotland > arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. > 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) > 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth > 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground > 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off > 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight > 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) > 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) > 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) > 29:12 End of tape > > B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) > At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI > Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew > Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew > Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew > Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew > Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew > Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew > Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew > The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew > One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew > The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes > Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. > Crew > Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- > (91st BG B-17) > Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew > Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew > The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew > (aka Yahoodi) > Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew > > Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron > except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet > been > named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. > 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video > ----------------------------------------------------------- > At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew > ----- 41-24535?? ? -R > Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 08:51:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I had about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he was knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our destination. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:33:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:33:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's In-Reply-To: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:47:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:36:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:36:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I think that was Jimmy Stewart's best role, even better than It's a Wonderful Life. Being a combat vet of the Eighth, he played the part of a veteran flier in the way only a veteran flier could. He was magnificent, especially the scene where he and the German are aguing over the use of the Kaufman starter. If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets a thumbs up from me. Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:56:30 EDT > >After the war, movie-stunt-aviators Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman >(TALLMANTZ >AVIATION) supposedly picked over the stock at Kingman and bought enough >aircraft for them to have the seventh largest airforce in the world. >They >got their investment back by siphoning off all the aviation fuel. Mantz >died in 1956 at age 61 while stunt flying in the filming of "Flight of the >Phoenix". Tallman....cheeze. I forget, but I did visit his museum in >Santa >Ana two weeks after he died. Jammed door to door with movie memorabilia. >This is your Hollywood reporter....Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:46:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:46:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: There is a memorial at Polebrook to Jimmy Stewart which was the 351st BG, but I don't think that was his outfit. I think his outfit went to another base before the 351st arrived. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's >Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:51:21 EDT > >Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I >don't know which one. One time when I had just started Primary Training at >Rankin Academy I was hitch hiking one Saturday and Paul Mantz picked me up >and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a very interesting trip. I >had >about 10 hours then in a Stearman PT17. He didn't tell me who he was at >first but asked me many questions about flying. His questions told my he >was >knowledgeable about flying so I wised up and didn't brag to him at all. for >which I was very glad when he introduced himself to me near our >destination. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:54:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:54:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <24.12f1811d.2823b979@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d499$51109560$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, if my information on Jim Stewart is lacking veracity, guess where it came from. Yup, the History Channel. Anyone here know a source where I can get my facts straight? I also heard that after the War ( The War we won, WHC) Col.James Stewart flew B47s in the New Blue Air Force. I need to do some reading up on Mantz too. Thanks for your reply, Mr. Rencher. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > don't know which one. and Paul Mantz picked me up > and gave me a ride to San Francisco. It was a > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 13:58:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:58:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <000f01c0d499$ed6cf700$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks to you also, Bill. You can bet on this; by the end of the day I will know alot more about James Stewarts military service than I thought I did last night. Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:04:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:04:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <12.c54e3d9.2823fec9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0d49a$d0867a20$69184e0c@o3n4f8> Grief ! You mean that thing actually FLEW? One more question, and I'll let go. What kind of engine needed a cartridge to turn it over? Was it standard back up for dead batteries? Thanks for the reply , Bob Hand. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Mantz, a sticker for perfection, wanted to do "just one more take" in the > makeshift plane used in the movie. It crashed on that final run. He was a > flier with a very colorful past, a one-time advisor of Amelia Earhart. > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 14:11:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:11:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <001d01c0d49b$af154500$69184e0c@o3n4f8> I Know I'm walking on thim ice with this topic, but I am of the same opinion. ( now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....) > Hey Bob: Flight of the Phoenix is one of my all time favorite movies. I the use of the Kaufman > starter. > > If any of you, especially you younger guys have not seen this movie, it gets > a thumbs up from me. > Kevin > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 16:54:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:54:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: Message-ID: <3AF2D0BB.D984E42B@attglobal.net> Jimmy Stewart was a PILOT. Alos was a GROUP Commander. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Friend Lloyd, I am quite sure Jimmy Stewart was C. O. of a B24 Group but I > > don't know which one. > > It is my understanding that Jimmy Stewart was a Squadron > commander with the 703rdBS/445thBG . Supposedly he flew over > 20 missions as a B-24 pilot or co-pilot. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 15:28:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:28:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <000f01c0d4a6$86c08f00$d9b34d0c@o3n4f8> I will pass this along for anyone ele who may be interested. http://www.jimmy.org/memories/content/demandingrole.html Best, Lloyd. ( and thanks to all who replied). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 17:57:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:57:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jimmy Stewart Message-ID: <6f.14bb8c67.28243976@aol.com> --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander. He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H) 23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer 453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd Combat Wing. He flew 20 B-24 combat missions. Prior to going overseas he completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a B/General. Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmy Stewart was not a Group Commander.
He was Operations Officer and Commander Officer of the 703rd BS/445th BG(H)
23 Nov 43 to 30 Mar 44 at Tibenham, England. Became Group Operations Officer
453rd BG(H) 30 Mar 44 to June 44 at Old Buckenham, (Colonel Ramsey Potts was
Commanding Officer) Operations Officers 2nd Combat Wing, Chief of Staff 2nd
Combat Wing.  He flew 20 B-24 combat missions.  Prior to going overseas he  
completeed the B-17 transition school at Hobbs, NM and became a combat crew
B-17 Flight Instructor at Gowen Field, Boise, Idaho. He retired in 1968 as a
B/General.
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_6f.14bb8c67.28243976_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 4 19:08:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:08:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] waste Message-ID: <22.1575f8dc.28244a0d@aol.com> Came home on the Queen Elizabeth in the middle of a HOT June.As enlisted men we carried our barracks bags which contained all our stuff plus a heavy winter overcoat,blanket and helmet liner.As we slowly pulled into New York harbor,lined with "Welcome Home!" and "Job well done!" signs and tugs and fireboats tooting and spraying water,as far astern as one could see was a floating olive drab trail of G.I. overcoats,blankets and helmet liners. Memories, Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:39:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:39:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <7b.1433b26c.282497a5@aol.com> Gonna have to rent Phoenix again...too fuzzy on my recollection. Hope all is well....have a wunnerful weekend! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 00:47:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:47:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <6d.136fc0ed.28249975@aol.com> Got me on that cartridge back up question....sorry! Cheers, Bob From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 02:29:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:29:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's Message-ID: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition came from? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:13:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:13:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. After the War, what did you do? (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are different .) This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 01:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's References: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c0d4f8$be4450e0$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> ... Or maybe, "Fire off the engine !" ? Cheers, Jack Rencher. := ) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fate of the 17's > Friend Lloyd, No the cartridge was not a back up. It was the standard first > line starter on some birds. I suspect more in the navy than in other > services. It looked much like a 10gauge shot gun shell but of course it had > no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord and > pass the ammunition came from? > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:51:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:51:37 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years in community relations with a local bank. It has been a fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 03:29:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:29:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <20010505025137.DLCD3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002101c0d50b$39750220$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd, following my discharge in 1945, I spent two years > with the B&O Railroad as a telegraph operator then the > next thirty two years in commercial aviation marketing > and sales. After retirement in 1981 a spent a few years > in community relations with a local bank. It has been a > fun trip. Regards, Bill Runnels > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:41:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:41:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reference Message-ID: <49.aed16ff.2824de7c@aol.com> thanks. lloyd. very interesting. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 05:47:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:47:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 04:22:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:22:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <8a.62f4c45.2824dfca@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c0d512$b061c920$0b194e0c@o3n4f8> Spec, I didn't mean that Gary gave me the go ahead on this question. I just discussed asking it with him. I don't work for the CIA, and I am not writing a book. It is just a question. If it is offensive, PLEASE, ignore it. Hit the delete button. I thought the question was relevant, and I promise, I gave it serious thought before offering it. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > it seems our editor requested each to complete some form re: our individual > lives since wwll. am i not correct gary. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:46:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:46:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was the only time I had to live. I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller and Grisham and Starr and Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't expect you to agree. I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate get a good one like Hal Suspend. Aren't you sorry you asked? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 06:15:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:15:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c0d522$5efe43a0$f1904d0c@o3n4f8> Not in the least bit, Mr. Rencher. Not in the least bit. I am glad that I asked, now. Your reply, and the one given by Mr. Runnels imply that there is hope beyond any other "mitigating" circumstances. I am thankful, as are many others. I hope that this makes some difference to you , and Harry Goebrecht, Bill Heller, Hal Susskind, Dick Smith, Ed Lamme, Ed Miller, Dick Johnson, and Gary Moncur, and all the rest of you "Toms, Dicks, and Harrys too numerous to name.... Thanks for the comments, Jack. Lloyd. Ps. my guess would be that you know of Robert Service, and Rudyard Kippling; a couple of other friends I am glad to know. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Friend Lloyd, > I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many were > not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the > greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this > planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my > own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or sad > or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. > > I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or change > it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or try > to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. > Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and > uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. I > had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As the > future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past was > the only time I had to live. > > I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for over > 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I > went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and Miller > and Grisham and Starr and > Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do not > have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and > this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could > and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones to > enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can I > pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I don't > expect you to agree. > I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are not > born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this morning > they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been and > never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair but > not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain of > your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't navigate > get a good one like Hal Suspend. > Aren't you sorry you asked? > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 09:21:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 01:21:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. Cheers! (now you know) Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > After the War, what did you do? > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > different .) > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > the privilege). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 12:09:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:09:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> Regards, Bill. I am proud to know you. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd Grant ... > > After the war I went with TWA's foreign department. They owned and or operated > five foreign airlines at the time. I went first to Manila for the new > Philippine Airlines of which TWA owned about 40%. They then sent me to Rome, > Italy as Chief Pilot of the European Division. After about ten years when TWA > pulled out of PAL they got the contract to get the postwar Lufthansa off the > ground and I went with them for 10 years. I worked with, flew with, and became > fast and close friends with many of the Luftwaffe pilots who flew against us. > It was a marvellous experience. When TWA pulled out of the Lufthansa contract, > I went with Transamerica Airlines - world-wide jet service and retired with > them at age 60 when the US takes your airline license. From soloing in 1936 to > retirement in 1980 I amassed 33,000 hours as pilot in command. It was a good > ride and well worth it ... 35 years as an airline captain. During this time I > also flew with the USAF Reserves and the Air National Guard. > > Cheers! (now you know) > > Bill Heller > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > > > After the War, what did you do? > > > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > > different .) > > > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > > the privilege). > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 14:16:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: <00f901c0d565$a4fe0d20$ca1b4e0c@o3n4f8> I apologize for having to ask this, but would those of you who have not seen the Molesworth tape, and anyone who might like to see it, please check in. My notes with everyones addresses and e-mails have been rendered nearly illegible. Thanks. Lloyd. ( palidin@worldnet.att.net ). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:33:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:33:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: Iloyd, I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - Clyde Hennong From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 17:40:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:40:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 Message-ID: From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:48:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:48:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Hi all- A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy Stewart. Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff and promoted to full colonel. The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. For more info on the 453rd, go to: http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 19:58:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 08:58:54 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <001501c0d553$e9221260$6e904d0c@o3n4f8> References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Grant, After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:54:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:54:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. 'Nuff said. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 23:40:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:40:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Lloyd Message-ID: <3c.b41aeb8.2825db6e@aol.com> Friend Lloyd, I really enjoyed reading the answers to your question, What did I do after the War? Those great persons and their very interesting answers made it joy to read my e-mail. I hope many more answer your great question. Thank you for asking. P.S. I did not spell Hal Susskind's name wrong. My smart computer corrected it and I did not notice it until after it was sent. Sorry Hal. Best wishes Gang, Send Lloyd your answer and include us all. Thank you. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:40:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:40:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war References: Message-ID: <001f01c0d5a3$b3574380$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for the response, Bill. Congratulations on your up-coming great grandfatherhood. Best wishes to you and your family. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #261 -After the war > Hi Lloyd, > As is often said, and it's true, there are no dumb questions, only dumb > answers. > After the war, 1945, I remained in the service and enjoyed every minute of > it. I was on flight status all of the time except for about a year and a > half. I flew B-25s, C-47s, C-54 (very short time) and SA-16s. I served in > SAC, Training Command and Air Rescue Service. I was stationed in Alaska with > the Air Rescue and instructed in the SA-16 for about four years. I was the > MATS Liasion Officer in Tiawan for two years. While at West Palm Beach AFB I > earned a BS in Business. After I retired from the AF in 1960 as a Major, > after 22 years I earned a BS in Civil Enginering. I then worked for the > Federal Highway Administration for 20 years. I enjoyed that work also. I have > enjoyed just about everything that I have done in my 78 years. I smoked too > much and now am handicapped with emphysema but still get around pretty well. > I have been married for over 50 years but it's taken two women for me to do > that. I am now about to become a great grandfather for the first time and > will see my great granddaughter when we have our reunion in Baltimore. > 'Nuff said. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:46:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:46:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart References: <20010504160424.356DD53722@pairlist.net> <3AF44B0E.67920A2B@uswest.net> Message-ID: <002701c0d5a4$74ba67a0$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for the lead , Mike. I will definately check it out. Walter Matthau ? I didn't know that. See what happens when you start asking questions :=) ). Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike McClanahan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Jimmy Stewart > Hi all- > > A friend of mine here in Denver was a pilot in the same Group as Jimmy > Stewart. > Lt. Col. Stewart was Operations Officer of the 453rd Bomb Group (H) from > March - June of 1944 when he was reassigned as 2nd Wing Chief of Staff > and promoted to full colonel. > The 453rd was a B-24 Group based at Old Buckenham. > S/Sgt. Walter Matthau was also in the Group as a radio cryptographer. > For more info on the 453rd, go to: > http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/aprilskies/264/oldbuck.html > > Mike McClanahan > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:50:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:50:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: Message-ID: <003501c0d5a4$f66f0e40$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Glad to oblige, Clyde. Please send your address and e-mail to me at : palidin@worldnet.att.net ( to assure your privacy). Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > Iloyd, > I have not seen the tape - and would like to see it when it comes around - > Clyde Hennong > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 21:57:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8><3AF3B81B.56C6E09E@attglobal.net> <3.0.5.32.20010505085854.00978ea0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <004301c0d5a6$07d59860$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Jim, I is reassuring to see so much good come out in the aftermath of this horrendous War. My very best wishes to you and your bride. Thanks for your response. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Grant, > > After the war I went back to my bride with whom I had spent a three day honeymoon just before leaving for overseas. This year we will be celebrating our 57th. I know wartime marriages never last, but we are still trying. After working about six months with my old company and with a baby on the way we decided I should go back to Oklahoma A&M and complete the work for my engineering degree. > > This was possible because of the GI Bill, which I am sure was the greatest benefit ever given by a grateful country to it's veterans. It made it possible for me to complete my education and to buy our first and succeeding houses. I worked at Stanford with a physicist, Martin Perl, who also said the GI Bill enabled him to return to college. He won a Nobel prize for discovery of one of the quarks, and has been invited to give a lecture as part of the 100th anniversary of the Nobel prize. > > After graduation I went back to The Refinery Engineering Company which had moved to Tulsa, then to Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco. From there I moved to Stanford university (SLAC), next to The University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy, then back to construction with the Dillingham Corporation. I went back to Stamford in the early 1980s to help build their latest electron-positron collider, then back to Hawaii to retirement and part time consulting. > > I have had a happy and rewarding life, and consider myself a very lucky person > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 5 22:17:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Texas Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <005a01c0d5a8$dad22100$72904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Maher, Jr. If you are monitoring the forum please get in touch. We seem to have a bit of trouble locating the Molesworth tape and I have lost your contact address. Would like to know if you still have the tape, or sent it on, and if so to whom. Thanks . Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:28:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 09:16:48 -0400 Message-ID: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape and my address is; James L Phillips 1906 Dorchester ave' Kalamazoo; Michigan 49001-5217 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:36:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:36:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 References: <17537-3AF4A8BB-755@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001801c0d5bc$322c35e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Got you, James. Thanks. ( one of my critters spilled a cup of coffee on my notes). Bill Jones is sending the tape to Edward Frank in Reading , PA. so it should be in your neighborhood ere long. I will let you know when Ed is ready to send it along. best regards, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES PHILLIPS" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape re: 5/5/01 > THANK YOU LLOYD, i haven't seen the tape > and my address is; James L Phillips > 1906 Dorchester ave' > Kalamazoo; Michigan > 49001-5217 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 00:50:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:50:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c0d5be$366ba260$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved the tape. I remember our conversation about where to send the tape next. Can you help me out with some info? I remember that it took a long time for Bill Owen to get the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you folks having any trouble with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my notes rendering them almost illegible). ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Patrick Maher" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Please add me to the route! > William Patrick Maher Jr. > 1802 Tulane Drive > Richardson, TX 75081 > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > crew.) > > Regards. > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > this > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > and Donald Kehne > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > his sake , I am truly > > > happy to see the response. > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > quality, but the content. > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > lots of great shots > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > will go to Bill > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > pass it around and > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > again, Don, thanks > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 01:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:24:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians Message-ID: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours truly.) Cheers to all, and thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 04:56:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:56:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Lloyd, I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, or if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. ( My > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! Yours > truly.) > Cheers to all, and thank you. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 02:19:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:19:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <003201c0d5ca$a60aa740$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Yup, Margaret Eileen Lamport. Cambridge, Eng. After the War my dad sent for her. He was stationed in the Phillipines (1946). I was hatched in November of the following year. Take a rough cut East Texan from Corpus Christi, combine with a refined young English woman; bake for approximately nine months and what do you get? One very confused Phillipino with blond hair and blue eyes. (and an "attitude"). Cheers, Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Hi Lloyd, > I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, or > if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? > Gordy. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. My > > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! > Yours > > truly.) > > Cheers to all, and thank you. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 05:55:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:55:19 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet In-Reply-To: <001901c0d4f8$be4450e0$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> References: <33.148d5f21.2824b160@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010505185519.0092f780@ilhawaii.net> Jack Rencher, Do you remember my pilot, C. J. Goodberlet? We were flying In the 358th bs from November 26, 1944 to March 20, 1945. He was a fine pilot and a fine man, and was in the same barracks as Harry Gobrecht? Jim Walling >had >> no pellets therein. Do you suppose that's where the song Praise the Lord >and >> pass the ammunition came from? >> Jack Rencher >> >> > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 08:51:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:51:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the war Message-ID: <43.14af300b.28265c68@aol.com> I entered service with 2 years of undergraduate credits.After discharge,thanks to S.1767,the G.I. bill, I finished my last 2 years and entered dental school,graduating in 1951.I enjoyed 35 wonderful years of practice.Nearly 8 million vets took advantage of the G.I. bill.We were in colleges and vocational training most of us could have only dreamed of during the depression.Ten times more non-vets flunked out than did veterans and our Federal income taxes repaid the initial expenditure many times over. Memories,Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 14:07:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:07:01 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians Message-ID: <20010506130702.EIMH4752.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, your invitation for comments about the things we remember about Molesworth when not flying stimulated my thought process. I remember the so called fresh eggs ( the yolk was white also from storage ) on mission days, slipping into the shower building on other than scheduled days, raiding the mess hall to have food in the barracks for snacks, softball games, shooting skeet ( I was on the skeet range with a former national champion when informed of the loss of my original crew in a mid-air collision ), playing in the base marching band and barracks senority. In three months I moved from the bottom to the top claiming the bed near the stove, under the light bulb and no longer having to censor mail. What a deal. ha I also remember going to the flight line to count the number of returning aircraft and watch them land. These are but a few of my memories. Thanks for asking.....Bill Runnels, bombardier, 360th sqd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 15:29:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 07:29:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <005e01c0d5c2$e3afe0e0$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> <001a01c0d5e0$ff9f6280$6d09f4cc@e0y0k4> <003201c0d5ca$a60aa740$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <004601c0d638$ff4b2000$2809f4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks, Lloyd. Real interesting upbringing, I bet. When did you come back to the States, or did you stay overseas for a while? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Yup, Margaret Eileen Lamport. Cambridge, Eng. After the War my dad sent > for her. He was stationed in the Phillipines (1946). I was hatched in > November of the following year. Take a rough cut East Texan from Corpus > Christi, combine with a refined young English woman; bake for approximately > nine months and what do you get? One very confused Phillipino with blond > hair and blue eyes. (and an "attitude"). Cheers, Gordy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:56 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > Hi Lloyd, > > I don't think you've ever told us that your mom was an English war bride, > or > > if you did, I wasn't paying attention. This is what you're saying, right? > > Gordy. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:24 PM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > > > > > > > If anyone would like to toss in a few comments about life at Molesworth > > > when you all weren't flying), it would also be great to read your > > > recollections about the base, and the surrounding area, what diversions > > > were available, and friendships you might have had with the Locals. > My > > > dad had a pretty nice relationship with one of the Locals, et Voila! > > Yours > > > truly.) > > > Cheers to all, and thank you. > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 13:32:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 08:32:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians References: <20010506130702.EIMH4752.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <006801c0d628$985de4a0$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Mr. Runnells. Your comments are well recieved and welcomed. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Moleworthians > Lloyd, your invitation for comments about the things we > remember about Molesworth when not flying stimulated my > thought process. I remember the so called fresh eggs ( > the yolk was white also from storage ) on mission days, > slipping into the shower building on other than > scheduled days, raiding the mess hall to have food in > the barracks for snacks, softball games, shooting skeet > ( I was on the skeet range with a former national > champion when informed of the loss of my original crew > in a mid-air collision ), playing in the base marching > band and barracks senority. In three months I moved from > the bottom to the top claiming the bed near the stove, > under the light bulb and no longer having to censor > mail. What a deal. ha I also remember going to the > flight line to count the number of returning aircraft > and watch them land. These are but a few of my memories. > > Thanks for asking.....Bill Runnels, bombardier, 360th > sqd. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 15:08:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:08:52 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <00ae01c0d636$15c0aa60$de1b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: "Bill Jones" Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Mr. Jones, my question and comments were specifically aimed toward the > Veterans in this group, however , I should add that I am also exeptionally > grateful for the numerous times that some of my contemporaries have been of > great value and assistance. I am also indebted to some guys named Bill > Jones, Donald Kehne, Kevin Pearson, and Bill Owen ; and some gals too, like > Moofy, and Anne Grant ( to name just a few). The word "Thanks" gets bandied > around a lot; it goes deeper than that, none-the-less, thank you all. It > is my privilege to be a member of this outstanding group. ( and Bill, as > you say, who cares what it is called, what it is makes the difference) . > Regards, > Lloyd. I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think that is the "accepted " term ) > > Ok, now I feel bad. It doesn't matter what you call the group. In > > fact, Gary calls it a "Forum" , so as you say, that's probably best. ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 22:18:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <000001c0d672$0a0cca00$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> To all you dear men, Ed Miller was kind enough to email me recently, curious about my relationship to the 303rd web site. He posted my answer on the comments page, but I am forwarding an emended version to you fellows in the chat group as another side to the "after the war" picture. My big brother, 2nd Lt. Howard George Weinberg, a bombardier, was lost on his first mission, to Leipzig on April 6, 1945. There was a horrific mid-air collision on the way to the target, and both B-17s went down, both crews were killed. Howie was 23 years old. In one month the war in Europe would be over. I was nearly 11 at the time of his death, the baby of the family. My next brother was 7 years older than I, my sister 10 years older, and Howie 12. Of all of them, it was Howie I adored. And no wonder. Howie was sweet, funny, handsome, slender, 6'5-1/2" tall, athletic, popular, sentimental, a charmer with the girls, the ideal son, the perfect brother. When he was home, our house was barely big enough to hold him. There was always noise, the radio turned up loud, music playing, his big friends dropping by. When I had to be dragged off to bed at night, the house would still be ringing with jollity, my lullaby. We were blessed with parents who not only loved each other and were each other's best friends, but who loved us and were our best friends as well. They were happy, we were happy. It was truly a magical household. I thought all families were like that. Before we were prepared for it, war came to our house. Howie left Columbia University to join up. He wrote, "Dad, I enlisted today. I want to finish the job you started in 1917." Imagine. My sister accelerated at college, even spending her summers there, to finish in three years; my other brother was sent to a naval prep school (Dad arranged that, hoping he would go from there to Annapolis, which would draw out the time before he might have to serve overseas). I was alone. No more lullabies. For the next couple of years, we lived in a sort of limbo, waiting for the war to come to its climax. As young as I was, I knew as well as anybody what might happen to Howie. And then the telegram arrived bringing the terrible news. Our family never recovered from losing Howie. I can't imagine how my parents dealt with it; they never talked about Howie's death in my presence. My sister escaped her grief by getting married and moving as far away as she could from home. My remaining brother completely dissociated himself from the family; I don't even know where he lives today. Mother remarked to me once that he was as much a victim of the war as Howie. I imagine now she meant he was struggling with a penetrating guilt that Howie was the one taken, not he. A few years ago, after my own children were educated and out of the house, my husband and I bought my family's old summer property. In restoring it, I began remembering things that I had not thought about in years, events that bound me emotionally to the place. I wrote down these remembrances, and I published them in a national magazine. Strangely, there was a huge hole in the text, the part about having had two brothers and a sister. I began to realize that Howie's death actually had shattered our family. I decided that would be my next big writing project, but having been so much the youngest, and not having been allowed in on anyone's grief, I simply did not understand enough. Both Mom and Dad had died. My remaining brother had disappeared. And my sister had nailed shut the door to her past. So I turned to Howie. I got ahold of his old letters, and in transcribing them into my computer I was able to witness his transformation from a carefree young collegian into a serious soldier. With the help of my U.S. Senator, I collected packets of material from various military archival sources. I learned exactly how Howie died, that he was buried and dug up twice near where the two B-17s went down, and that he was interred with honor in Liege, Belgium at the military cemetery there. [My young husband and I visited Liege in 1955. When we were conducted to Howie's grave and left alone there to ponder, I cried -- not only for missing Howie, but because no one in our family had witnessed the ceremony that had laid him to rest.] Down deep inside me, Howie is still living. I carry a vision of a party somewhere, and Howie holding me high up in his arms and dancing around the room. And one of his tossing pebbles at my window one dark night; he was on surprise leave, and I was to tiptoe down and let him in. And another when he apologized to me, the only one in my family, except my father, to ever do so. Was it all a dream? I have two sons who are intensely interested in my quest for Howie. One of them discovered the 303rd web site. I believe the day will come when someone will post a picture of Howie's fated crew. I wonder, will Howie appear serious, or will he be giving that sly smile of his that always meant he was up to something I hope someone in the 427th remembers Howie, though he was in England only a few days before his fated mission. Howie was sweet, funny, handsome, slender, 6'5-1/2" tall, athletic, popular, sentimental, a charmer with the girls, the ideal son, the perfect brother. And he was only 23 years old when he died. I sign this, Howie's little sister, Lois Brown From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 22:58:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 16:58:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. Message-ID: <000f01c0d677$d143aee0$31bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people Year at Hastings college - 40-41--- Omaha Welding School - December 1941 - Mar. 42---April 17 at age 21 enlisted.- Sept 27, 1945 discharged - worked in my dad's garage and filling station.---Married June 16, '46 ---Sept '46 entered University of Nebr. Entered Spanish II class room . The first thing the instructor said was " You Ex- GIs have no place in an intitution of higher learning.." -- after 6 weeks in Spanish III informed I had flunked Spanish II - ask the Spanish III instructor what my average was --85----Disturbing information.. Dropped out in March of 1949 Found out my advisor put me in the wrong college[ should have been in Ag. college.] for a career as a Conservation officer. Returned home to work On The Job Training in the garage and Standard Oil filling station [complete overhaul, reboring and small engine repair & a lot of irrigation engines] Dad's mechanic [my uncle] and I took over the business [He started in 1915 - my uncle started in 1919] in Sept. 1951 -- Nov. 1970 Partner wanted to retire. Not liking the offer he made I said I am done too. Had $285 on the books we couldn't collect.---April , 1971 - went to work hopping diesel pumps at I-80 truck stop. June, '71 Parts man in Chrysler-Plymouth agency. in Grand Island .- June 73 Parts manager - June 74 let go for financial reasons. Released on Mon--- . 1 PM tues afternoon started to work for Chevrolet -Cadillac agency as parts clerk. Retired from this in Jan 1986. ---June '86 - 90 worked full time in the summer for the Stuhr Museum of the prairie Pioneer in Grand Island as interpreter on the Pawnee earth Lodge on the museum grounds. I was Costumed as a Sioux Warrior or a Mt Man. 1989 and 1990 my wife and I held a mountain man class for 5 & 6th graders on the museum grouinds. She had retired in 1989 after 33 years of teaching. 24 as 6th grade teacher in Grand Island system the rest in rural schools.---1999 back to work at the I-8o truck stop [exit 307] this time carving meat on Sundays for the buffet. --Didn't gain much on that.--Still there. Time to wake you all. - exit stage left. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St. Wood River, NE -68883-9164 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 23:45:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:45:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <004d01c0d67e$4d14b540$1ef833cf@richards> Hi Lloyd: After returning in May 1945 with 60 combat missions 35 B17, 25 P51. I asked my father if I could go and ask my Future wife for her Hand . Dad said no that I was not 21 yet and He would not give his permission he Said " Listen son marriage is something that you will only regret once and that's the rest of your life. So I waited till June 3 when I turned 21 and went and asked Betty to marry me She said yes and we were married on June !6 1945. We stayed in the Air force for 10 years I went back to Regular Master Sergeant in 47 and was recalled as a pilot in 48 for the Berlin Airlift , I ran the Engine change hangar at Fossberg Germany . When one of our two sons passed away in 1948 I returned to the States and was reassigned to Griffis AFB in Rome N.Y. I stayed at Griffis for 5 years and was grounded in 1949 so they could save my flying pay When Korea war started I went to Inspector Generals School at Maxwell Field. I was ordered to Luke Field for P51 training in early 1952 when they came out with a letter stating that if I went to Korea I could not be promoted as I was serving in a grade lower than my Reserve grade of Captain. The excuse they gave was that they had recalled to many Reserve and National Guard officers in their full grade and they were overstocked . I asked for discharge under this letter as I was completely dissatisfied with the way they were running the service. I returned to Eastman Kodak where I had worked before joining up in 1942. I went to Engineering school at Rochester Institute of Technology and got my degree. I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer at Kodak un- till 1982 when I retired to accept a position With Fender Guitars in California , when CBS sold Fender I went to work for Northrop Aircraft on the B2 Bomber. I had 9 patents at Kodak one at Fender and two at Northrop. My wife and I raised 6 sons and two have passes away but the others are all successful .One is Vice President of Fender Guitars . One teaches School in Prescott As. one is Executive VP of an Engineering Co in Mass. and the other tends Bar in Rochester NO.N.Y.. the best job of all. WE are retired in Hemet Ca. where I build and fly Radio Control airplanes and am Secretary and Newsletter Editor of The Hemet Model Masters web page < www.ivic.net?~spider> Enough said Dick "Spider " Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War > I have known a lot of the veterans that contribute to this "list" ( I think > that is the accepted term) for a couple of years now. Although the list > forum has not been available over the span, many of you have gone out of > the way to answer questions that I have asked either through this venue, the > 303rd BGA "comments" section, or via personal e-mails; and in a few cases > actual old fashioned letters. Over that time, I have asked some stupid > questions, some tiresomely redundant questions, made some silly remarks, > and on occassion have asked some valid questions that inspired you to take > me seriously ( for a while ). There is an unhappy naivety that the > uninitiated possess when posing questions to men who have "gone to the > edge" so to speak. If I have learned anything, it is because men like you > have had the patience and understanding to share some bittersweet memories. > For your patience and consideration, I am eternally grateful, and , I > sincerely hope, a better and wiser person than I was a couple of years ago. > > A couple of weeks ago I discussed a question with Gary Moncur that I have > wanted to ask you all for several months. Gary did not at the time think > the question would be out of line. So, tonight, I will ask it. > > After the War, what did you do? > > (My father stayed in the Air Force and retired after 20 years as a Lt. Col. > He was with you guys as a Navigator with the 427th from the early days. > Later with SAC in B-47s, and retired from the Missle Command. He tried > several things, but never really adapted to Civilian life. The rules are > different .) > > This may seem to be an impertinent question, but , if you will think about > it for a moment; it is not For those that care to respond, I am again > grateful. For those who choose not to; I am respectful. Whatever the > case. Thank you. Lloyd Grant , 303rd BGA member. ( and dam_ proud for > the privilege). > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 6 20:27:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:27:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. References: <000f01c0d677$d143aee0$31bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000001c0d68a$d15ae5c0$b58f4d0c@o3n4f8> Well, Mtn Man, we can't all be rich and famous, but you are brothers from the bond of shared experience, and what you did after the war is more meaningful to the picture than you might believe. Thank you, Maurice. notice, I didn't post my story. But, then , I wasn't on the set until Nov. of '47. I was fired the first day for being late for "cast call". Cheers, friend. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 01:41:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 20:41:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <001101c0d4f8$45f47340$f1b34d0c@o3n4f8> <004d01c0d67e$4d14b540$1ef833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002001c0d68e$86edb7c0$b58f4d0c@o3n4f8> Enough can never be said Spider. I will bet you were not the only one to get "spiraled" out of grade by the "New Blue". As it seems, everything works out for the best. Should I tell the guys what you are flying these days, " Ameliclan pryrot" ? ( I checked out your sight and was amazed. When I signed out it was with a lot of respect. Thank you for contributing, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Hi Lloyd: > After returning in May 1945 with 60 combat missions 35 B17, 25 P51. I asked > my father if I could go and ask my Future wife for her Hand . Dad said no > > WE are retired in Hemet Ca. where I build and fly Radio Control airplanes > and am Secretary and Newsletter Editor of The Hemet Model Masters web page < > www.ivic.net?~spider> > Enough said > Dick "Spider " Smith > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 04:59:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:59:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: <69.14dcbfc7.282777a1@aol.com> Jim, yes I remember him in name only. Like Harry Gobrecht who has become a very dear friend after the war I knew him only by the way he held his position in formation during the war. We did not visit each other huts very much so we only really knew the people in our crew, in our hut. or were in training with us. Maybe some of those who went to the club a lot had other friends, but I was a loner. I'm sorry Jim I flew as check pilot with lots of new crews on their first mission and I don't remember any of them except one who was such a bad formation pilot I couldn't believe it and I flew the whole mission. I won't mention any name. I flew my last mission with the 303rd on 24 Dec. 1944 so I was there about a month while Gooberlet was there. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 07:49:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:49:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <94.13c702a5.2824edc0@aol.com> <001001c0d522$5efe43a0$f1904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00c701c0d6c1$de14a120$c209f4cc@e0y0k4> I agree with Lloyd, and us forty or fifty year old "young farts" find all of this very pertinent. You guys might think we aren't interested in the rest of your life, but I sure am. We get to know each other here, and it makes thing a little more personal, and more familiar, the better we do know each other. Thanks for taking the time to write, Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Not in the least bit, Mr. Rencher. Not in the least bit. I am glad that I > asked, now. Your reply, and the one given by Mr. Runnels imply that there > is hope beyond any other "mitigating" circumstances. I am thankful, as are > many others. I hope that this makes some difference to you , and Harry > Goebrecht, Bill Heller, Hal Susskind, Dick Smith, Ed Lamme, Ed Miller, > Dick Johnson, and Gary Moncur, and all the rest of you "Toms, Dicks, and > Harrys too numerous to name.... Thanks for the comments, Jack. > Lloyd. > > Ps. my guess would be that you know of Robert Service, and Rudyard > Kippling; a couple of other friends I am glad to know. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:46 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > > Friend Lloyd, > > I Thanked God I was still alive and wondered why I was and so many > were > > not. I could see and I could walk and I could think and I lived in the > > greatest country and greatest time that ever existed on the face of this > > planet and for those I gave thanks daily. I decided I was the master of my > > own fate and the Captain of my own ship and no one could make me mad or > sad > > or unhappy unless I let them. I haven't been mad in over 40 years. > > > > I decided that yesterday was gone. I could not bring it back or > change > > it or live in it. I could lie about it or learn from it. Remember it or > try > > to forget it. Cherish it or regret it but it was gone and unchangeable. > > Tomorrow was not here yet and would never be. It was an unknown and > > uncertain. I might not even be there.when it came. That left only today. > I > > had to live my whole life today and not only this day but this moment. As > the > > future passed over the thin knife blade edge of the present into the past > was > > the only time I had to live. > > > > I met and married and a wonderful lady and shared life with her for > over > > 51 years. We raised 3 fine sons. I continued to fly for over 50 years I > > went to reunions and met Men with names like Gobrecht and Heller and > Miller > > and Grisham and Starr and > > Tom and Dick and Harry and Bill and hundreds of others whose names I do > not > > have room for. I basked in the luxury and plenty and safety this time and > > this great country made available for me. I grew old as slowly as I could > > and tried to make it a better place than I found it for you younger ones > to > > enjoy as I have. AS the time approaches for us to leave it to you what can > I > > pass on to you to save you from some of our bad times? I'll try but I > don't > > expect you to agree. > > I don't know when men are created but it is self evident. They are > not > > born equal and will never be. If you could find two equal men this > morning > > they would not be equal tonight. The world is not fair. It never has been > and > > never will be. We should not expect it to be. We can make ourselves fair > but > > not the world. The decisions you make make your luck, You are the Captain > of > > your own ship. Don't turn it over to a bad navigator. If you can't > navigate > > get a good one like Hal Suspend. > > Aren't you sorry you asked? > > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 08:48:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 03:48:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 13:02:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:02:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? Although I suspect the above interesting questions were retorical, the next time you see a fly on the ceiling, put a little dish washing soap in a glass and pour in HOT water so it foams up. Then take that glass and slowly raise it underneath the fly. About 90% of the time the fly will try to take off, but instead do a dive straight down into the soap. I'm not sure if he does the half roll or not, but it is very fast, and I'm guessing that it starts out flying upside down (rather than just dropping like a parachute until his feet are down), and gets dis-oriented by the white foam, and thinks he is going up when he is really going down. Ie it is not that they drop into the glass, but they accelerate into it. Really neat to see, but it is way to fast to see what kind of manuever he is doing. Anyway, even flies have a hard time flying in pea soup. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 13:37:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:37:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: Delayed returning to art school in favor of working with an incredible duo of artists. In so doing, established myself in art community and had only two jobs in 40 or so years. Got to do some good stuff (Black Velvet Campaign) and never regretted a day. Semi - retired in Fla., still working at design and illustration. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:12:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 03:12:09 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet In-Reply-To: <69.14dcbfc7.282777a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010507031209.009838b0@ilhawaii.net> To Jack Rencher, I am intrigued but not surprised by your answer about Clarence Goodberlet. With one exception, we did everything as a crew, even our trips to London, Nottingham and Ediinburgh, and had little association with other crews. The one exception was our copilot, who I learned 50 years later was courting a pretty young English girl that he married in June of 1945. I remember almost no one else except as a name or a job, like the friendly corporal(?) who woke us up for missions and drove the jeep that carried us and our guns to the plane. I don't even remember the crew or crews that shared our hut. I, too, was a loner. If there was an enlisted men's club I don't remember it. I would like desperately to remember the name of the crew chief of Bouncing Betty III and the other ground crewmen, who took such good care of us and were so understanding. He didn't even complain when I brought the ball turret back from our first mission smelling of piss, because it didn't have a relief tube and couldn't leave the turret with enemy aircraft around. He just explained that I should carry a fuse can, which I did on future missions. For some reason I could remember Harry Gobrecht, but I can't remember his crew. Not even Tom Mays, who came from my part of the country. I seem to remember Lt. Goering, who seemed to be such a spit and polish officer that we would not dare pass him without saluting. I do remember my cousin, Glen Walling, who was waiting in my barracks when I returned from the mission on February 21, 1944. He was from California, and I had not seen him since he was about 12 yeas old. I learned he was in our group and seen my name at the Red Cross club. I have regretted many times that I did not get over to see him before I finished my missions a month later. As some of you know, he was KIA on the last mission of the war. Thank you for your reply about Lt. Goodberlet. Jim Walling At 11:59 PM 5/6/01 EDT, you wrote: >Jim, yes I remember him in name only. Like Harry Gobrecht who has become a >very dear friend after the war I knew him only by the way he held his >position in formation during the war. We did not visit each other huts very >much so we only really knew the people in our crew, in our hut. or were in >training with us. Maybe some of those who went to the club a lot had other >friends, but I was a loner. I'm sorry Jim I flew as check pilot with lots of >new crews on their first mission and I don't remember any of them except one >who was such a bad formation pilot I couldn't believe it and I flew the whole >mission. I won't mention any name. I flew my last mission with the 303rd on >24 Dec. 1944 so I was there about a month while Gooberlet was there. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:37:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape In-Reply-To: <002901c0d5be$366ba260$b2904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <20010507133756.81436.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Due to delays on THIS end, I just mailed the tape on Saturday. Sorry! (Delays: making copies of the tape, etc). --- Lloyd J Grant wrote: > William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved > the tape. I remember > our conversation about where to send the tape next. > Can you help me out > with some info? I remember that it took a long time > for Bill Owen to get > the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you > folks having any trouble > with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd > ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my > notes rendering them > almost illegible). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Patrick Maher" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > Please add me to the route! > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If > the > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete > Clark's > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the > Monahan > > crew.) > > > > Regards. > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not > intend > > > this > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth > sharing, > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. > For > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not > the > > > quality, but the content. > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > lots of great shots > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. > Mine > > > will go to Bill > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it > goes..... > > > pass it around and > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > again, Don, thanks > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 14:38:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, "PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In looking through the records it seems to have been used as a "scouter" plane in early 1945. Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying bombs. Is this correct? Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to stay out at the target for a long time? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 15:31:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:31:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E09C@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> May 7th marks the day that Nazi Germany capitulated. You men of the 303rd Bomb Group were instrumental in bringing the war in the ETO to a end. I know that you know this all ready but we the younger generation of Americans want to tell you again.. "Thank you, Job well done"! No doubt it was a team effort by all branches of the US Military. In 1942 it was very questionable what the outcome of the war in Europe was going to be. Because of your devotion and sacrifice I can write these words today. Take a moment to remember those who paid the ultimate price on May 28th. God Bless you all. Greg Pierce, President, 8th AFHS - WA From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 16:26:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:26:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <65.13f4cedc.282818c0@aol.com> My idea of the stripped down plane was to bo in ahead of the main formation to drop chaff to mess up the ground gunners aim at us - anybody else have any input on that????? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 19:40:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:40:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have guys like you who did what had to be done. >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying >bombs. Is this correct? > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 19:48:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:48:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AF6EDF9.E36D825E@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Your query anent whether a fly (or a Dove) which goes "aloft" during flight has no effect on the aircraft's gross weight at the time ... reminds me of a story. It was told by Ernie Gann many years ago. He said, "We were flying a load of caged birds out of Agra in India and when we lost an engine on takeofdf, I suddenly realized we could not clear the Taj Mahal. At this moment my loadmaster fired a blank pistol making all the birds instantly give wing ... and I believe it was this loss of weight which allowed us to clear the Taj Mahal!" I once took Ernie on a flight from Wake Island to Manila when he was going over their to research one of his books. He looked me in the eye and said, "That's a true story, Bill., I swear!" And then he winked. By the way, I never flew a DC9 and if I did, I would not fly it over the Pacific. I flew DC8s, DC10s and 747s ... And in the very old days did fly DC4s and DC6s over the Pacific. Pursuant to the ab ove I often wondered if you were sitting on a train going fifty miles and hour, and your suit case immnediately over you in the baggage rack, fell down, would it, due to the speed, actually6 fall a wee bit down the aisle, thus sparing you a bump on the head ... ? It is to ponder, eh? Keep up the good work, Jack. I find your comments very enlightening. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 21:43:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:43:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America References: Message-ID: <3AF7090C.2E466FA7@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Yes, and when we came back to a 20-man barracks with 16 empty beds, we were given a shot of whisky and told to get some rest because "we may go out again tomorrow" ... NO counselors or people to hold our hands as happens today when two or more get killed and the entire city ties yellow ribbons on the trees and have public pray-ins. It is to ponder. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a > Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally > distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost > of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think > of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have > guys like you who did what had to be done. > > >From: "Bill Jones" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, > >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped > >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In > >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a > >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped > >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been > >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just > >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression > >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I > >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to > >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying > >bombs. Is this correct? > > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that > >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the > >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes > >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he > >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, > >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or > >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had > >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to > >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 22:51:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:51:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: <57.15a8d301.282872fc@aol.com> absolutely correct. how come now? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 22:56:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:56:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Message-ID: <34.14954570.282873f7@aol.com> thanks, greg From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 23:39:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:39:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <50.15655703.28287e2b@aol.com> bravo!! i knew you were of the "RIGHT STUFF" cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:11:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:11:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: In reading through mission information, I ran into a few missions that confused me, which isn't hard. It was situations such as where the primary target might be a certain target using GH equipment, and the secondary target might be a nearby target using PFF equipment, and the lead plane had only GH equipment and the deputy lead plane had only PFF equipment (or visa versa). The question is, if the conditions required use of the equipment which was on the deputy lead aircraft, would the lead and deputy lead planes exchange positions in the formation? If so, how was this done, ie would the lead radio back and tell the other planes to back off while the exchange was in progress? If not, I don't understand how the wing plane can lead the squadron on the bombing run. If the exchange IS made, I am still confused as to how the other planes are notified, because I have one data sheet indicating that the deputy lead planes were monitoring a different frequency than the lead plane and the other planes in the squadron. I assume this means that the lead plane would have to switch channels to talk to the deputy, then switch back to tell the other planes to back off, then switch back to talk to the deputy again???? Or was this process simpler than I am imagining, ie flares or something??? Or did this situation just never happen, and they only bombed off the deputy when the lead plane was damaged and dropped out of formation? Ie I didn't actually find examples of when they bombed by the equipment on the deputy plane, but did find examples where it would have been a possibility, so I assume that it must have happened. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:45:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:45:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <001301c0d74f$ec55ad40$2a8ee0d8@h4k3401> Greetings to all who may be interested, - - - - Reading the latest round of post-war experiences has inspired me to tell my own. Having been born in 1937, I was a child when the war was being fought and I can remember wondering why we were mad at the Germans. Maybe they had green blood or something. The Japanese, on the other hand, were obviously different but I really didn't care much because the war wasn't much of a concern for a five year old. Skipping ahead to about 1983, my wife Tawny, my brother Richard, his wife Holley, and I, were talking about Tawny's father who had been shot down and killed while on a bombing mission during the war. Her mother flat refused to tell her anything at all about her father except that his name was Ralph Quint and he was in the 303rd. Bomb Group flying B-17s and that his plane went down on June 29, 1944. About that time I had seen a book on the paintings of Keith Ferris and how he had researched the circumstances of each of his paintings, including the mural in the Smithsonian. It seemed possible that perhaps he had run across something that would help us in finding out what we wanted to know about Tawny's father so I wrote a letter to Mr. Ferris. He put us in touch with the 303rd. B.G.A. and we were then able to to get in touch with Leslie Black who was the ball gunner and the sole survivor. Numerous telephone conversations and letters followed and we were able to put together quite a lot of information. The best came in 1985 when we attended the group reunion in Seattle. We met many fine folks, including Dick Johnson and his lovely wife Marjorie. He had kept a mission diary (written on bomb-tags) wherein he described the shooting down of "My Yorkshire Dream". This letter is getting too long so I'll close by saying that our experience in Seattle in 1985 was one of the most magical things that ever happened to us. My very best regards to all of you, sincerely, David Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:01:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:01:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember it was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would send a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment I think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did have planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was called a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were ex bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one of them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that dropped it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:11:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:11:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: Friend and roll model Bill The suitcase in the over head would have a forward component of 50 mph the same as the train. Hence as it fell down it would still be moving forward at 50 mph the same as your head would be and therefore you would get conked on the head just the same as you would it the train was sitting on a siding when the suitcase fell off. Best Wishes Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:24:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:24:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: To drop chaff!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:26:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:26:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America Message-ID: <97.14f38ecc.28289727@aol.com> Didnt they use the scouter plans to drop chaff? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:41:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 00:41:45 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: <20010508004145.XSIS3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> In 1945 each aircraft in the formation dropped chaff on the bomb run. It was dispensed by the radio operator. I don't recall of other aircraft being assigned to this duty.....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:44:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:44:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 Message-ID: chaff was pushed out an opening on all my flights by the radio operator from his position. they were in rectangle blocks longer than wide or deep. it would show a silver panel behind our craft's path and others with the assignment. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:51:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:51:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: <62.e7fc6a8.28289cf7@aol.com> Bill Jones, It would be no problem at all for the lead to pull out of formation and get back in a wing position if he wanted too. All he would have to do is notify the squadron on the radio of his intention and tell them the deputy lead (his right wing man) would take over. Then the deputy lead could move under the lead and as the lead pulled up the deputy lead could move up 10 feet and his squadron would have a new lead. Other than the leads left wing man no one else would need to do anything except stay in formation with a new leader. Then the ex-lead could become the right wing man, or what he wanted too. It was no trouble at all to change positions in formation. We did it all the time. If someone went down with a better position than you had you could move into his position in 5 to 10 seconds. Or fall in with another Squadron Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:54:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:54:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War Message-ID: <3d.b51f03d.28289dd5@aol.com> dick ,what did you do with the other hours of each day? cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:57:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:57:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two B-17s on a western tour Message-ID: <3AF6F01F.20558.E665B7@localhost> The B-17s "Nine O Nine" and "Aluminum Overcast" are both on western tours and are offering flights. My brother flew on Nine O Nine yesterday from Orange County, CA. Some pics of his flight are here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/maise/b17.html They went over Long Beach and you can see the Queen Mary in one of the shots. I am going to go on Aluminum Overcast when she comes to SLC on June 23rd. The tour info is here: Nine O Nine: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ Aluminum Overcast: http://www.b17.org/ Jack Rencher - Aluminum Overcast will be in Boise on June 15-18, or come to SLC and go with me. Susan and I will pick you up and give you the royal treatment for the day. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:00:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:00:44 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? Message-ID: <20010508010045.DSEP3626.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Would it be necessary for the lead aircraft to make the change with the deputy? As I recall the squadron was to be notified to drop on the 1st deputy should the lead aircraft be disabled for any reason. There was no change in position required. bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:01:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:01:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: Jim Walling, Was your Copilot Malcolm Magid? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 02:03:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:03:57 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Malcolm Magid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010507150357.00980730@ilhawaii.net> Jack Rencher, Yes, Malcolm was our co-pilot. He and I are the only known survivors of our crew. As you probably know, Malcolm and Iris live in Atlanta, Georgia. I met them at the reunions in Colorado Springs and late at the one in san Francisco. At 09:01 PM 5/7/01 EDT, you wrote: >Jim Walling, > Was your Copilot Malcolm Magid? > Jack Rencher > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 7 23:39:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:39:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <001301c0d74f$ec55ad40$2a8ee0d8@h4k3401> Message-ID: <000701c0d746$943110e0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> And may I add this; that is what we are all about. Thank you, David. LGrant. ( stay aboard.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Y" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 7:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > Greetings to all who may be interested, - - - - Reading the latest > round of > post-war experiences has inspired me to tell my own. Having been born in > 1937, I was a child when the war was being fought and I can remember > wondering why we were mad at the Germans. Maybe they had green blood or > something. The Japanese, on the other hand, were obviously different but I > really didn't care much because the war wasn't much of a concern for a > five year old. Skipping ahead to about 1983, my wife Tawny, my brother > Richard, his wife Holley, and I, were talking about Tawny's father who had > been shot down and killed while on a bombing mission during the war. Her > mother flat refused to tell her anything at all about her father except that > his name was Ralph Quint and he was in the 303rd. Bomb Group flying B-17s > and that his plane went down on June 29, 1944. > About that time I had seen a book on the paintings of Keith Ferris and > how he had researched the circumstances of each of his paintings, including > the mural in the Smithsonian. It seemed possible that perhaps he had run > across something that would help us in finding out what we wanted to know > about Tawny's father so I wrote a letter to Mr. Ferris. He put us in touch > with the 303rd. B.G.A. and we were then able to to get in touch with Leslie > Black who was the ball gunner and the sole survivor. Numerous telephone > conversations and letters followed and we were able to put together quite a > lot of information. > The best came in 1985 when we attended the group reunion in Seattle. We > met many fine folks, including Dick Johnson and his lovely wife Marjorie. > He had kept a mission diary (written on bomb-tags) wherein he described the > shooting down of > "My Yorkshire Dream". > This letter is getting too long so I'll close by saying that our > experience in Seattle in 1985 was one of the most magical things that ever > happened to us. > My very best regards to all of you, sincerely, David Young > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:00:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:00:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America References: <3AF7090C.2E466FA7@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002f01c0d749$83098ec0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, my father told me about a similar experience, re: coming back to an empty hut that had been filled with friends a few hours before. And for a moment; just for a moment, he talked to me about it. I now realize what he was trying to tell me. I should have held his hand, or something. I didn't and I regret it to this day. Thanks for saying that. I hope I wasn't the only one listening. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Good Morning America > Kevin Pearson ... > > Yes, and when we came back to a 20-man barracks with 16 empty beds, we were > given a shot of whisky and told to get some rest because "we may go out again > tomorrow" ... NO counselors or people to hold our hands as happens today when > two or more get killed and the entire city ties yellow ribbons on the trees > and have public pray-ins. It is to ponder. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Did any of you watch GMA today and see the three people who were on a > > Continental flight where a passenger had died. They were so emotionally > > distaught, they thought Continental Airlines should reimburse them the cost > > of their vacation because it had been ruined. I couldn't help but to think > > of you vets, coming back with wounded and dead on board. Thank God we have > > guys like you who did what had to be done. > > > > >From: "Bill Jones" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > > >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:38:56 -0400 > > > > > > On the 16mm movie I have, there is a short view of 41-31055, > > >"PU-J", ie "Aloha" . In the picture I have, it seems to be stripped > > >down. Ie it doesn't seem to have a ball turret or even a top turret. In > > >looking through the records it seems to have been used as a > > >"scouter" plane in early 1945. > > > Does anyone have any knowldege of the use of this stripped > > >down plane? Ie am I correct that the armament had been > > >removed? And why, ie to give it more speed and range? And just > > >how did these "scouter" planes function? Ie I get the impression > > >that these planes had a high ranking commander of some level (ie I > > >think they were CBW level commanders) that would fly ahead to > > >the target to check on the weather. I assume they weren't carrying > > >bombs. Is this correct? > > > Another interesting thing about these "Scouter" flights, is that > > >they don't seem to show up on the CDROM as missions for the > > >people who flew them, even though I'm pretty sure that the planes > > >flew to the target, as one of my father's notes indicated that he > > >radioed the scouter aircraft for advice on one mission > > > If these scouter flights were just to observe weather at the target, > > >and/or to suggest secondary targets, etc, then wouldn't a fighter or > > >some other quicker plane be a better choice than a plane that had > > >no defenses if attacked? Or did they need a plane with the range to > > >stay out at the target for a long time? > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:03:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:03:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010507133756.81436.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c0d749$f5afd6a0$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Stuff happens, everyone understands. No sweat. Thanks for checking in on it. I will let Bill Dallas know. Best, pard. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Patrick Maher" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Due to delays on THIS end, I just mailed the tape on > Saturday. Sorry! > (Delays: making copies of the tape, etc). > > --- Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > William, Bill Dallas says that he has not recieved > > the tape. I remember > > our conversation about where to send the tape next. > > Can you help me out > > with some info? I remember that it took a long time > > for Bill Owen to get > > the one I sent from Florida to Tyler, Tx. ( you > > folks having any trouble > > with Commanches lately?). Thanks. Lloyd > > ( one of the critters dumped a cup of coffee on my > > notes rendering them > > almost illegible). > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Patrick Maher" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > > > > Please add me to the route! > > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If > > the > > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete > > Clark's > > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the > > Monahan > > > crew.) > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not > > intend > > > > this > > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth > > sharing, > > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. > > For > > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not > > the > > > > quality, but the content. > > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > > lots of great shots > > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. > > Mine > > > > will go to Bill > > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it > > goes..... > > > > pass it around and > > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > > again, Don, thanks > > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 00:14:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, References: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E09C@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <004101c0d74b$81a88d40$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> I appreciate you posting this, because I didn't know that either. I spent all day asking young people if they knew what "Today" was. To a person they all knew the date, none of them expressed any interest in the significance. I guess it is like the Civil War, WWI, Korea , and Viet Nam, unreal in every respect, but for the Reality. " Thanks" somehow doesn't really seem to encompass it all. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pierce, Gregory S" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, > > > > May 7th marks the day that Nazi Germany capitulated. > You men of the 303rd Bomb Group were instrumental > in bringing the war in the ETO to a end. I know that you > know this all ready but we the younger generation > of Americans want to tell you again.. > > "Thank you, Job well done"! > > No doubt it was a team effort by all branches of the US Military. > In 1942 it was very questionable what the outcome of the war in > Europe was going to be. > > Because of your devotion and sacrifice I can write these words today. > > Take a moment to remember those who paid the ultimate price on May 28th. > > God Bless you all. > > Greg Pierce, > President, 8th AFHS - WA > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 04:01:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:01:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 References: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0d76b$4f889ec0$36f833cf@richards> When I was in the 1st Scouting Force Col Bud Peasley decided that we in our P51s Could carry one drop tank Full of Window or Chaf as you are calling it . They took an paper Drop tank and band sawed it in half lengthwise,then they filled it with chaff and banded it back together with metal straping that was held together by the bomb shackles.We flew out ahead of the lead group which was the most unprotected from Radar. When we got in position we dropped our tanks and the chaff would spread out from the wind. As this dropped in large clouds they figured that it was not effective. Then Col Peasley got a Mosquito bomber and we built a dispenser in the Bomb Bay which dropped the chaff in small bundles just like the radio operator did. We escorted the Col as he flew the Mosquito out ahead of the lead Group This worked great the only problem was keeping up with the Mosquito. Enough Said Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember it > was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would send > a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment I > think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did have > planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and > reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was called > a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were ex > bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one of > them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that dropped > it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. > They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there > would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 01:07:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:07:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> Message-ID: <006801c0d752$dcb03740$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> May be, one day the web meister will grant us a holiday ( perhaps one day a week) where "Hanger Talk' and jokes and other Bravo Sierra, and comradrie would be permitted for a while before we got back to the serious business of remembering the War ( the one we didn't lose, Bill). Jack, with out a doubt, Bill Heller will have a precise answer to the question you have posed. If, however, our friend is out to lunch, or , on vacation, please check out this book from your local library, " Crisis at 37'000 ft ; A Dove In Tourist Class" written by Hans Hassledorf ( Lufthansa pilot on flight 999, Boeing 747 non-stop from Rhein-Main to La Guardia, 1970.) It is a gripping tale from beginning to end , replete with acts of valor and courage unparalled in the annuls of aviation history. Available from the Two-Egg Florida Freepress, pub. Oct. 1971. ( I hope Bill Heller has read it.) Cheers. Lloyd. ;---) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific would > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on the > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back of > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed one > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be thinking > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 05:42:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. Message-ID: >This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people >THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. >Maurice J. Paulk Maurice - Being an auto parts guy may not appear exciting and some won't appreciate what you have done to help them on their way through their day, but apparently you have contributed much to the running of aircraft, autos, trucks, agriculture and who knows what else. You and those like you are the unseen & unsung sometimes, but you could never count all those unknown folks you have helped to keep going both in the war & peacetime, and for that I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" Best regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 05:48:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 00:48:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Message-ID: --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids." Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended, Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site < www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email to ..................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that
post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete
training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to
leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a
rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to
establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of
building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders
to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked
tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to
train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the
dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all
happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of
1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of
1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on
December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the
99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the
welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would
argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the
"cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids."
Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for
transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He
was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended,
Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he
commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning
to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he
retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he
was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing
more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site <
www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email
to <ford lauer@aol.com>..................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.9733182.2828d4aa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:09:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:09:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War. References: Message-ID: <000901c0d763$e14985c0$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Well said, Rich ! Not only that, but try out one of his recipes. I am hooked. I have awesome admiration for every man that responded to this question, but the award for heroism goes to Maurice Paulk, and the men like him who don't think what they did was important. It was. I leave it up to the guys they took care of to comment further. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:42 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > >This is not an exciting resume - hope I don't bore too many people > > >THE MOUNTAIN MAN > > a. k. a. > >Maurice J. Paulk > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy may not appear exciting and some won't > appreciate what you have done to help them on their way through their day, > but apparently you have contributed much to the running of aircraft, autos, > trucks, agriculture and who knows what else. You and those like you are the > unseen & unsung sometimes, but you could never count all those unknown > folks you have helped to keep going both in the war & peacetime, and for > that I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" > > Best regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:12:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:12:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 References: <5b.157dded2.28289149@aol.com> <001501c0d76b$4f889ec0$36f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000f01c0d764$60bbdd80$35914d0c@o3n4f8> One hell of an airplane, the Mosquito, from what I have heard. ( You should build one, Spider) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > When I was in the 1st Scouting Force Col Bud Peasley decided that we in our > P51s Could carry one drop tank Full of Window or Chaf as you are calling it > . They took an paper Drop tank and band sawed it in half lengthwise,then > they filled it with chaff > and banded it back together with metal straping that was held together by > the bomb shackles.We flew out ahead of the lead group which was the most > unprotected from Radar. When we got in position we dropped our tanks and the > chaff would spread out from the wind. As this dropped in large clouds they > figured that it was not effective. Then Col Peasley got a Mosquito bomber > and we built a dispenser in the Bomb Bay which dropped the chaff in small > bundles just like the radio operator did. We escorted the Col as he flew the > Mosquito out ahead of the lead Group This worked great the only problem was > keeping up with the Mosquito. > Enough Said > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:01 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aloha in 45 > > > > When I was there in 1944 we did drop chaff, but as far as I can remember > it > > was dropped by a regular fully armed plane. I cannot believe they would > send > > a crew over in an unarmed plane. If they had given me such an assignment > I > > think they would have had a full fledged mutiny on their hands They did > have > > planes that got over the target 20 minutes ahead of the first bombers and > > reported back to the bombardier with advice on the conditions. It was > called > > a Buckeye Scouting Force. They flew P51s. Most if not all of them were > ex > > bomber pilots. You might ask Spider Smith about this. I think he was one > of > > them. The chaff worked very well most of the time. The planes that > dropped > > it flew across our flight path and maybe 10 minutes or so in front of us. > > They could have been something like a B25 or B26 or maybe a B-17 but there > > would be no need to remove the turrets. The chaff was not that heavy > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 06:26:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:26:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war References: Message-ID: <003e01c0d77f$7eb23300$a709f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ford, I just want to say thanks for printing such an excellent piece on = your predecessor. He really does deserve the respect of all. I am just = reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a Prayer", and it was = noted very well, that the men who helped to establish the 303rd were all = taken away to form other groups, almost without exception. It was one of = the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they arrived = overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned = elsewhere. The only continuity that the 303rd retained was in the ground crews = and support groups. Their experience helped the group get through those = first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was learning how to fight = a war, in the air, like it had never been fought before. On this solemn day, when hostilities in the ETO ended so many years = ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for our freedom, especially = those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice.=20 Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fordlauer@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served = that=20 post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to = complete=20 training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted = having to=20 leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, = was a=20 rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move = on to=20 establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- = that of=20 building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these = commanders=20 to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They = worked=20 tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, = to=20 train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the = dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made = it all=20 happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in = March of=20 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In = February of=20 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on = December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of = the=20 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply = for the=20 welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some = would=20 argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one = of the=20 "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids."=20 Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late = for=20 transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the = '29s. He=20 was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war = ended,=20 Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where = he=20 commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After = returning=20 to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases = until he=20 retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the = 303rd, he=20 was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in = knowing=20 more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web = site <=20 www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send = email=20 to ..................Ford J. Lauer III=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ford,
    I just want to say thanks for = printing such=20 an excellent piece on your predecessor. He really does deserve the = respect of=20 all. I am just reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a = Prayer", and it was noted very well, that the men who helped to = establish the=20 303rd were all taken away to form other groups, almost without = exception. It was=20 one of the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they = arrived=20 overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned=20 elsewhere.
    The only continuity that the = 303rd retained=20 was in the ground crews and support groups. Their experience helped the = group=20 get through those first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was = learning=20 how to fight a war, in the air, like it had never been fought=20 before.
    On this solemn day, when = hostilities in the=20 ETO ended so many years ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for = our=20 freedom, especially those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice. =
Gordy.
 
**************************************
"Our = freedom is not=20 free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L. = Alton
129=20 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1
cell 250-537-6706 = fax=20 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= ******************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fordlauer@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 = PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After = the=20 war

Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group = commander. He served that
post from January to June of 1942. He = did not=20 have the chance to complete
training of the group, or take it = overseas. I=20 am sure he regretted having to
leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, = being one=20 of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a
rare and valued resource early = in the=20 war, and therefore had to move on to
establish other groups. He = and his=20 peers performed a remarkable task- that of
building an air force = from=20 scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders
to get units = ready for=20 combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked
tirelessly = with few=20 planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to
train pilots = and=20 crews with little flight time behind them. It was the
dedication = of the=20 commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all
happen. = Some=20 would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of =
1943. He=20 was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of =
1944,=20 he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on =
December=20 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the =
99th. He=20 never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the=20
welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose = some=20 would
argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer = was not=20 one of the
"cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men = as his=20 "kids."
Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer = was too=20 late for
transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not = needed for=20 the '29s. He
was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 = project. After=20 the war ended,
Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the = occupation=20 forces, where he
commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson = Air=20 Base. After returning
to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer = commanded=20 various air bases until he
retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer = didn't=20 fly combat with the 303rd, he
was there to plant the seeds in the=20 beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing
more about Colonel Lauer = or the=20 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site <=20
www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me = may send=20 email
to <ford lauer@aol.com>..................Ford J. Lauer = III ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0D744.C1CA9140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 03:59:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:59:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: Message-ID: <001901c0d76a$df031400$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, you have really opened a jar of marmalade with this question. Luckily, I have done Extensive Research on this very subject. The answer to your question is manifold, and very complex involving an understanding of numerous manufacturers, design features, and some seriously complicated mathmatics. C.M. Swatters has probably written the "bible" on VTOL pests. Please ask your librarian to get you a copy of : " One Hundred and Ten Before Noon". As you probably already know, Swatters holds the World Record for the number of flies downed in one afternoon. It is the poignant story of one lone mans' confrontation with destiny, and how he became an Ace. To answer your question, tho; It is my understanding that " Maggots" that is , newly trained flies) were taught to release their gear from the ceiling and free-fall for one nanosecond before engaging power. naturally, I could be wrong, but I have to trust my sources , hey?) At this point the cadet flies were taught to "split Ess" and dive toward the mayonaise jar..... Anyway, knowing your penchant for details, maybe you should get the book. :----)). Damn, this is fun!. cheers, pard.(s) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow roll. A > > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When he > > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > > Although I suspect the above interesting questions were retorical, > the next time you see a fly on the ceiling, put a little dish washing > soap in a glass and pour in HOT water so it foams up. Then take > that glass and slowly raise it underneath the fly. About 90% of the > time the fly will try to take off, but instead do a dive straight down > into the soap. I'm not sure if he does the half roll or not, but it is > very fast, and I'm guessing that it starts out flying upside down > (rather than just dropping like a parachute until his feet are down), > and gets dis-oriented by the white foam, and thinks he is going up > when he is really going down. Ie it is not that they drop into the > glass, but they accelerate into it. Really neat to see, but it is way > to fast to see what kind of manuever he is doing. Anyway, even > flies have a hard time flying in pea soup. > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 07:18:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:18:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War References: <92.142b27c8.2827ad53@aol.com> <006801c0d752$dcb03740$978f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF78FC7.A379A5BD@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... Please tell me more about the Lufthansa 747 that went from Rhein-Main to LaGUARDIA! Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > May be, one day the web meister will grant us a holiday ( perhaps one day > a week) where "Hanger Talk' and jokes and other Bravo Sierra, and comradrie > would be permitted for a while before we got back to the serious business of > remembering the War ( the one we didn't lose, Bill). > Jack, with out a doubt, Bill Heller will have a precise answer to the > question you have posed. If, however, our friend is out to lunch, or , on > vacation, please check out this book from your local library, " Crisis at > 37'000 ft ; A Dove In Tourist Class" written by Hans Hassledorf ( Lufthansa > pilot on flight 999, Boeing 747 non-stop from Rhein-Main to La Guardia, > 1970.) It is a gripping tale from beginning to end , replete with acts of > valor and courage unparalled in the annuls of aviation history. > Available from the Two-Egg Florida Freepress, pub. Oct. 1971. ( I hope Bill > Heller has read it.) Cheers. Lloyd. ;---) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:48 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War > > > Lloyd Grant and others if you wish, > > When a fly lands on the ceiling, does he (or she) do a half slow > roll. A > > half barrel roll or a half loop? Which brings up another question. When > he > > leaves the ceiling does he do a split S or half roll? > > Which brings up a question for you Bill Heller. If a dove was flying > > around in the cabin of your DC9 while you were flying over the Pacific > would > > the weight of the dove add to your wingloading? If the dove was siting on > the > > back of the copilots seat and flew to back of a 747 and landed on the back > of > > the very back seat would it change your Wingload ? If I had gone to bed > one > > half hour ago and not checked my e-mail tonight, what would you be > thinking > > about right now? Did you think that was coffee I was just drinking? > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 04:17:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 23:17:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war References: <003e01c0d77f$7eb23300$a709f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <002c01c0d76d$6ea09a40$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Alton, and Mr. Lauer, history often forgets the Privates, and blames the Generals. Some fathers lived for this day 1/2 a century ago. Some were the fathers of our fathers, but we must ever be the sons and daughters of these men: "send not to know for whom the bell tolls..." Well, there I go again. Somebody Stop me. Best. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Hello Ford, I just want to say thanks for printing such an excellent piece on your predecessor. He really does deserve the respect of all. I am just reading the book, "Half a Wing, Three Engines, and a Prayer", and it was noted very well, that the men who helped to establish the 303rd were all taken away to form other groups, almost without exception. It was one of the things that made it hard for the men of the 303rd, when they arrived overseas. All the good men, like Col. Lauer, had been reassigned elsewhere. The only continuity that the 303rd retained was in the ground crews and support groups. Their experience helped the group get through those first few months, when the whole of the Eighth was learning how to fight a war, in the air, like it had never been fought before. On this solemn day, when hostilities in the ETO ended so many years ago, I give my thanks to those who fought for our freedom, especially those who paid with the ultimate sacrifice. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Fordlauer@aol.com To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: After the war Colonel Ford J. Lauer was the 303rd's first group commander. He served that post from January to June of 1942. He did not have the chance to complete training of the group, or take it overseas. I am sure he regretted having to leave the 303rd. Colonel Lauer, being one of the pioneer B-17 pilots, was a rare and valued resource early in the war, and therefore had to move on to establish other groups. He and his peers performed a remarkable task- that of building an air force from scratch. The pressure was on for these commanders to get units ready for combat and get them overseas in a hurry. They worked tirelessly with few planes, little equipment, and crude new air bases, to train pilots and crews with little flight time behind them. It was the dedication of the commanders and the young pilots and crews that made it all happen. Some would call it a miracle. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of 1943. He was attached to headquarters of the 15th Air Force. In February of 1944, he assumed command of the 99th Bomb Group, finishing his tour on December 29th of 1944. Colonel Lauer was well respected by the men of the 99th. He never dodged a mission no matter the target. He cared deeply for the welfare of his men and was quite attached to them all. I suppose some would argue that he shouldn't have done that. But Colonel Lauer was not one of the "cold steel" commanders. He always referred to the men as his "kids." Returning to the States in January of 1945, Colonel Lauer was too late for transition training in B-29s. More Colonels were not needed for the '29s. He was placed in command of the Consolidated B-32 project. After the war ended, Colonel Lauer was stationed in Japan with the occupation forces, where he commanded both the 35th fighter group and Johnson Air Base. After returning to the states from Japan, Colonel Lauer commanded various air bases until he retired in 1949. Though Colonel Lauer didn't fly combat with the 303rd, he was there to plant the seeds in the beginning. Anyone interrested in knowing more about Colonel Lauer or the 99th Bomb Group, can go to the web site < www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Any person wishing to contact me may send email to ..................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 07:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:23:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? References: Message-ID: <3AF790EC.58E6EFC3@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Don't recall the frequency notes - which were on the chart given us and called something like a "flimsy" or some such funny name - But, if someone HAD to take over due to various reasons, he fired a double-yellow flare which advised all in the formation that THAT plame was taking over lead. Did it on a few occasions and it worked. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > In reading through mission information, I ran into a few missions > that confused me, which isn't hard. It was situations such as > where the primary target might be a certain target using GH > equipment, and the secondary target might be a nearby target > using PFF equipment, and the lead plane had only GH equipment > and the deputy lead plane had only PFF equipment (or visa versa). > The question is, if the conditions required use of the equipment > which was on the deputy lead aircraft, would the lead and deputy > lead planes exchange positions in the formation? If so, how was > this done, ie would the lead radio back and tell the other planes to > back off while the exchange was in progress? If not, I don't > understand how the wing plane can lead the squadron on the > bombing run. > If the exchange IS made, I am still confused as to how the other > planes are notified, because I have one data sheet indicating that > the deputy lead planes were monitoring a different frequency than > the lead plane and the other planes in the squadron. I assume this > means that the lead plane would have to switch channels to talk to > the deputy, then switch back to tell the other planes to back off, > then switch back to talk to the deputy again???? Or was this > process simpler than I am imagining, ie flares or something??? > Or did this situation just never happen, and they only bombed off > the deputy when the lead plane was damaged and dropped out of > formation? Ie I didn't actually find examples of when they bombed > by the equipment on the deputy plane, but did find examples where > it would have been a possibility, so I assume that it must have > happened. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 13:32:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:32:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Does formation change if bombing off deputy lead ? In-Reply-To: <3AF790EC.58E6EFC3@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Don't recall the frequency notes - which were on the chart given us and > called something like a "flimsy" or some such funny name - Right. The frequency note I found, was a half page sheet that was attached to the "flimsy" for one of the missions. It said that most aircraft were to monitor channel "A", but there were also channels "B","C", and "D", that other aircraft were to monitor. I have an image of this sheet at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/fr314.jpg ( I also show an example of a flimsy at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/fl314.jpg ) Basically it has freq assignments for the deputy lead planes that is different from the rest of the planes. I'd be interested in a explanation of the logic behind the chart. This also brings up the question that has been asked a couple times about to what extent did planes talk to each other on the radio, and to what extent was there radio silence. > But, if > someone HAD to take over due to various reasons, he fired a > double-yellow flare which advised all in the formation that THAT plame > was taking over lead. Did it on a few occasions and it worked. Thanks. (And to the others that responded). I guess it was not as complicated as it seemed to me. I just figured that with everyone in a tight formation, that you better make sure everyone knew that a change was being made, or someone would be following the wrong plane. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 13:32:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:32:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the War In-Reply-To: <001901c0d76a$df031400$35914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > C.M. Swatters has probably written the "bible" on VTOL pests. Please ask > your librarian to get you a copy of : " One Hundred and Ten Before Noon". > As you probably already know, Swatters holds the World Record for the number > of flies downed in one afternoon. I probably could have challenged that record, whatever it was. Several years ago, we lived next to a farm, and put on an addition at a time when the farmer put a pile of manure right next to our yard. By the time they closed up the addition, we had thousands of flies in the house. I used my soap in the glass technique. I caught so many that the top of the foam was black instead of white, but I soon learned that if I stirred it with a fork, that the flies would sink into the water below, but pretty soon I was running out of space in the glass, so I had to dump out the mixture and start from scratch a couple times. I didn't count, but I'm sure I caught several hundred. Where I live now, we have a really bad fly problem, but we have ceilings that are about 25' tall, so it is more of a challenge to get the soapy water to the flies, so I use a vacuum cleaner with about 5 extension tubes. I think someone is really sorry that he brought up the topic of flies. I promise not to say any more..... sorry. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 16:00:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? Message-ID: In the 16mm movie I have, it shows the the wing plane to the right of the plane taking the movie moving VERY close to the one taking the picture. I wondered just HOW close, so I captured an image, and noticed that the #1 prop was noticably bigger in the picture than #2, and figured out a way to calculate how far away that plane was from the size ratio (ie far away, the two props would look the same size, but close, the near one looks bigger). What I calculated was something like 47 feet, cockpit to cockpit !!!! This meant that the wing of the right wing plane extended over the fuselage of the lead plane, and that the fuselages were less than a wing's length apart!!! (This was substantiated by the fact that you couldn't see the tip of the wing in the picture.) This seemed un-necessarily close, so last year I asked a question on the "other" bomber group (heavy_bombers), and I got the response from a couple of the pilots saying that some hot shot pilots would play a game of tag, and actually bump the top of the nearby plane with it's wing! I would assume that this was just some tall tail telling to impress those of us who weren't there, but I'm curious what the pilots in this group would say. Just how close together did you get? And is it at all conceivable that a B-17 pilot would intentionally bump the next plane in the formation?!? (I hope not.) BTW, the plane that got close in my movie, was the "Queen of Hearts" http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaaqueen.JPG This isn't the image that I did the calculation from (I had another image with a better view of the engines), but you can see that it is so close that you can see the nose art, and you can see the size difference of the two engines. In the movie, this plane eased in real close, then backed off, almost like the pilot was getting close because he knew he was having his picture taken. I'm not sure what mission this was taken on, but it was after Queen of Hearts was re-named from being the "BN-Q" plane to being the "BN-X" plane, so I'm guessing early 1945, possibly Feb 14 1945 (based on the other planes identified in the movie). ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 16:36:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:36:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Clarence Goodberlet Message-ID: <37.14a5f96c.28296c65@aol.com> Jim- Sorry, just got back, screwed up my old mail and lost your PO address=please send and I will get the pix off. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 18:04:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs References: <20010508045201.F14EF536A1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000c01c0d7e0$fd8d0ea0$3dbb9ace@mjpmtman> > Message: 27 > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for being there!" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought of it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just tolerates his job he is going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call me --just don't ignore me!" Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express in the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? CARRY ON!------------MAURICE PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! THAT was a fur piece ago!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 22:15:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:15:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? Message-ID: Bill Jones, From my observations as I remember them there was a considerable difference in the formations between Bomb Groups. Although I am probably prejudiced I think the 303rd probably flew the closest of most all of the Bomb Groups. I think Bill Heller's 360th Sqdn. and the 358 th Sqdn flew the closest in our 303rd Group. We spread out a bit going in and coming out, but when there was enemy fighters around and on the Bomb Run we regularly flew with our wings overlapping or underlapping and just low or high enough to stay out of the wing wash of our lead plane. I remember no case where one plane deliberately touched another one. but I would say it was not unusual to fly within 5 feet of some part of another plane. One time we were flying home from a mission. The air was smooth and there was no enemy planes in the area. We were flying lead to the low 6 planes The tail gunner in the leads left wing man was either asleep or unconscious. We pulled up under him and Bill Sachau our Bombardier opened the astro dome and reached up and grabbed the muzzles of his two guns and shook them The tail gunner woke up fast. with a very surprised look on his face. I'm glad he didn't pull the trigger. I was somewhat concerned our vertical tail would get in the wash but it didn't. I've seen the Spitfires topple the gyros on the V1s by putting their wing tip under the V1 wing tip and flipping it. I heard the P51 pilots would knock off their buddies drop tanks when they hung up and wouldn't drop. I don't remember of ever observing this but believe it would be easy for an experienced formation pilot. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 22:17:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:17:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again Message-ID: Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you over Piccadily when the lights came on? I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > Message: 27 > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for >being there!" >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought >of >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just >tolerates his job he is >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call >me --just don't ignore me!" > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express >in >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 8 21:42:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:42:35 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <3AF85A3B.D6E43BDA@newsfactory.net> Kevin, just a short point from the "other field post number": My Dad, a German Air Force soldier, once told me his thoughts on this date, when he was finally "sacked in" by US Infantry in Northern Italy, on May 10th(!) 45: "Finally over! A 6 years odysee is over. No more threat of live. Little bit of hope to join the family once again back home one day.... Hope....Hope.. for a better future and no more wasted years....a little bit more of time and somehow I´ll get home again.... will they all be alright back home...." Kind regards to you all from Germany, Uwe Wiedemann Kevin Pearson schrieb: > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 00:30:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:30:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <008001c0d816$ef3ce740$56f833cf@richards> On May 8th 1945 I was at a base in southern England waiting to board the Isle De France for the trip back to the states. I remember the huge bonfire where they burned Hitler in Effigy. Also remember the guys with British Girls Panties displayed around their necks .Now where do you think they got those? We sure partied all night and the next morning we boarded ship. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 02:33:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 01:33:40 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again Message-ID: <20010509013341.KEIW3305.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Kevin, it was party time on VE Day. I don't think many knew or cared if the lights were on. HA The party lasted about two days then the CO took charge and we found ourselves in close order drill etc. It was a great time for all. ... bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 02:50:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:50:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-80 Shooting Star Message-ID: <4b.b43b461.2829fc5c@aol.com> --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read about 6 years ago that the USAAF had a squadron of P-80(F-80) Shooting Stars, jet fighters at a base in England in 1944. Have any of you ever heard or read about this? I wonder if they encountered any Me 262s? If they did, the Germans would have a big surprise!!! Terry Lucas --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read about 6 years ago that the USAAF had a squadron of P-80(F-80) Shooting
Stars, jet fighters at a base in England in 1944. Have any of you ever heard
or read about this? I wonder if they encountered any Me 262s? If they did,
the Germans would have a big surprise!!!
Terry Lucas --part1_4b.b43b461.2829fc5c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 05:18:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:18:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: Message-ID: <3AF8C4FD.29C41B43@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... I was not in London on 8 May of 1945 but I attended many of Sid Field's musicals and comedy Stage Shows and heard Zoe Gale sing her "I'm gonna get lit up when they light up Piccadilly." dozens of times. (I was dating George Black's daughter at the time - he the owner of the Sid Field Shows and other Theatre Units) ... I was hoping to get down to London to see this spectacle, but did not. However, I was told later that there were 10 year-old English children who NEVER knew what it was to see a street light. This must have been wonderful for them. Shortly aftgert VE Day the 303rd "cadre" (me among them ... I flew one of the B17s to Casablanca) went to North Africa on a ruse ... and later home to the ZI. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what it > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > Kevin > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > Message: 27 > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > >being there!" > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > >of > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow just > >tolerates his job he is > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > >in > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought they > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a BLAST! > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 05:21:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:21:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again References: <008001c0d816$ef3ce740$56f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AF8C5C3.CDB20506@attglobal.net> Spider ... So you came home on the Ile de France, eh? Great ship. Food not so good they tell me. Those Brits got those panties from the GIs ... Cheers! WCH Dick Smith wrote: > On May 8th 1945 I was at a base in southern England waiting to board the > Isle De France for the trip back to the states. I remember the huge bonfire > where they burned Hitler in Effigy. Also remember the guys with British > Girls Panties displayed around their necks .Now where do you think they got > those? We sure partied all night and the next morning we boarded ship. > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:17 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 8 May 1945 - When the Lights Came On Again > > > Since today is May 8th and the 56th Anniversary of VE Day, I was just > > curious how you vets felt 56 years ago today? What were you doing, what > > were your thoughts? And how did you feel "when the lights came on again?" > > Were any of you flying over England 56 years ago tonight? Were any of you > > over Piccadily when the lights came on? > > > > I can not even begin to imagine an enire continent blacked out for the > > duration and what hardships this must have caused. When I think of what > it > > must have been like to see lights after so many years, I'll bet you guys > > were one happy lot even with the Pacific Theater looming over you. > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Maurice Paulk" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #264 - 28 msgs > > >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:04:47 -0500 > > > > > > > Message: 27 > > > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:42:00 -0700 > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich Young) > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the War. > > > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > > Maurice - Being an auto parts guy > >>>I and many can say "Thanks for > > >being there!" > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >To You and Lloyd Grant a sincere thank you.. Looking back I never thought > > >of > > >it as a war effort-- Just a job. I liked what I was doing. If a fellow > just > > >tolerates his job he is > > >going to be a very unhappy indidividual [even in civilian life.] > > > > > >Like I tell my friends at the coffee shop --"Don't care what you call > > >me --just don't ignore me!" > > > > > >Checked out the Nine-0-Nine site. The bomb sight and above the bomb sight > > >the chin turret sight shows very plainly. When I flew Continectal Express > > >in > > >the nose - the bomb sight was not there {naturally]. The chin turret > > >controls were there but I don't remember seeing the sights. I thought > they > > >were attached to the control column. Were they easily removed ? > > > > > >CARRY ON!------------MAURICE > > >PS- I was on pass in Dudley Worcestershire on VE Day - '45---What a > BLAST! > > > THAT was a fur piece ago!!! > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 13:04:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:04:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation flying...how close did you get? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One time we were flying home from a mission. The air was smooth and > there was no enemy planes in the area. We were flying lead to the low 6 > planes The tail gunner in the leads left wing man was either asleep or > unconscious. We pulled up under him and Bill Sachau our Bombardier opened > the astro dome and reached up and grabbed the muzzles of his two guns and > shook them Great story. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 18:11:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:11:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY Message-ID: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> WISH I HAD TOTAL RECALL !! I mentioned being in Dudley on VE Day -- which got me to thinking. VE DAY was on a tues in 1945 as the clendars are identical.to 2001. Normally I went on pass on a friday night. I seem to remember I was told to stay on base for a class A dress. celebration - formation and that I could leave the base immediately afterwards. I seem to remmber an inspection and trenchs in the ground forming a V & an E!! Gasoline or napalm [ was that available then?] was lit. My question is this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. I was late getting into Dudley and the next morning we [ my British "brother" & I] joined a snake dance [curb to curb and I know a good mile or more long.] the morning of the 8th. [AND MOST OF THE AFTERNOON] Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 18:43:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:43:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY In-Reply-To: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > My question is > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies tend to blend in with reality. It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's good exercise. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 19:10:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:10:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY In-Reply-To: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: V.E. day is one of the few things I can remember from the WWII era, mainly because I was only 2 years old at the time. I just remember that they had a radio broadcast or something announcing the surrender, and my mother, and the others in the house were jumping for joy that the war was over! I remember asking if that meant that my father would be coming home, and being very confused, because of course the answer was that she didn't know whether he would be sent to the Pacific theater. So it confused me that the war was over, but the war wasn't over. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:22:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:22:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: <001901c0d8ab$211056a0$1cbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000d01c0d8bd$5a77e7c0$31914d0c@o3n4f8> The war in Europe was won long before the shooting stopped. "Elements" of the German High Command made secret overtures to the Allies seeking terms for capitulation. The unified Allied response was "Unconditional Surrender". Consequently, more for Political reasons than Stategic ones the Germans fought on. I have personal reservations regarding the actual influence Hitler wielded in the waning days of the War. Needless to say, a lot of men on both sides died whose lives might otherwise have been spared. Winston Churchill wrote a lengthy chronicle about the war and it is an excellent source , among others. I leave it to wiser men to explain. I am just very glad for the friends I have made here,, the younger; who to still care, and the Veterans; who have survived to pass along this history. I have enjoyed reading the replies everyone has made to Kevin Pearsons question. VE Day; now, there was a memory worth savoring. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY My question is > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > I was late getting into Dudley and the next morning we [ my British > "brother" & I] joined a snake dance [curb to curb and I know a good mile > or more long.] the morning of the 8th. [AND MOST OF THE AFTERNOON] > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:56:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I read it twice there, and again when I got home.) Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I know I have at least two. I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd Grant. PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 20:59:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:59:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #266 -May 8, 1945 Message-ID: <53.5dcf8a3.282afb97@aol.com> I can't remember the exact date that I left Stalag Luft 1 at Barth, Germany but I was walking through Germany through the Russian occupied area during that time period. I later got back to Molesworth and we had one heck of a party at the 358/427 th Officers Club. My Navigator had given me a pewter mug which I left at the bar, it was still there in 1945. All booze was free and someone brought in a bunch of English girls. I don't remember much of the evening and the next morning a Major, don't know his name, asked me why we through the girl in the fire pool. It was just outside the front door. I told him he must be mistaken but he said that I was the only 2nd. Lt. on the base so it must have been me. I still don't remember but I must have had a good time from the hangover I had. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 21:09:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:09:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #266/comments of Jprencher Message-ID: --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Jack said it perfect..I know because I flew in both squadrons, 360th and 358th. John Casello always said if we fly a good formation, you will always come home. Bill Bergeron --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      Jack said it perfect..I know because I flew in both squadrons, 360th
and 358th. John Casello always said if we fly a good formation, you will
always come home.
Bill Bergeron --part1_dd.14397d4c.282afdfc_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 21:34:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:34:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model Message-ID: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with innovating a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed on the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was lost over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements ( often very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but limited to space available in the new letter. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 00:18:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:18:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AF96DB8.5546.233FF06@localhost> > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail > box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who > edits this always welcome and informative volume, Lloyd, I agree that the HA Newsletter is outstanding. I forwarded your note on to Eddie Deerfield, who is not a member of 303rd-Talk. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 9 22:41:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:41:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <3AF96DB8.5546.233FF06@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c0d8d0$e64d59c0$ea184e0c@o3n4f8> I appreciate that, Gary. Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail > > box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who > > edits this always welcome and informative volume, > > Lloyd, > I agree that the HA Newsletter is outstanding. I forwarded your note > on to Eddie Deerfield, who is not a member of 303rd-Talk. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 04:03:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:03:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model References: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001001c0d8fd$c01faa00$72184e0c@o3n4f8> Correction. Don was KIA (rtb) on 14/5/43, the same day William Bales was downed in the English Channel (not the North Sea) with no survivors. Joe BTSFPLK II went down over St. Nazaire, France thirteen days earlier !/5/43. If anyone ever wonders about the mind boggling task ( and labor of love) it must have been to compile, edit, up date, and research this kind of information; you need to go see the chaplin in hopes that HE can give you some religion. I am on my way there now. Hopefully, I will meet some of you in the line, and we can B/S while we wait our turn. Anyone that wants to see the roster, should "Buy The Book", as the saying goes. The war is over, and we are going home. WELCOME HOME ! And, Thank you, you crazy brave foolish b.....ds. grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. > "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with innovating > a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from > attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from > spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts > article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed on > the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on > #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was lost > over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all > crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews > and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements ( often > very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the > opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? > > How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other > 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a > frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). > > All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. > > ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but > limited to space available in the new letter. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:36:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:36:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft >names in the entire 8th AAF This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what is the rest of the story Lloyd? ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:59:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:59:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <000a01c0d90e$10dc0c80$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Rich Young, you are wise beyond your years. I wish I had the guts, courage, intelligence, and integrity to have been there, but I was not. My father, and these other brave men were there in my place, and yours. What else can I say? ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question, but you got it right, pardner.) ( :=+0 ). Very best, Rich. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > >names in the entire 8th AAF > > This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have > come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. > Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his > head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what > is the rest of the story Lloyd? > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 05:54:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:54:00 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: Message-ID: <3AFA1EE8.43B7789A@newsfactory.net> Another fact that was verified by Field Marshal Rommel´s son , his wife and his closest Staff officers is, that he, Rommel, had already made plans - around July/August 44, after operation"Overlord" had succeded- to give orders to his German troops in the West to retreat and let the Allied Forces pass through to Germany! Just to hold the lines in the East as much as possible against the Russians and keep the Russians out of Germany. At the end of June he already stated in his staff that it´s a fact the war now is lost - just a matter of time- and that it´s better to concentrate all troops at the Eastern front. After the events of July 21st, 44, Rommel was also considered to have taken part in the conspiracy against Hitler and was forced to suicide in Oct. 44. Uwe Bill Jones schrieb: > > > My question is > > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something > about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a > complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the > Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, > and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US > rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about > there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier > than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > > > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I > know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not > sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies > tend to blend in with reality. > > It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other > bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a > message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly > about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I > think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went > on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an > intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about > how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the > base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only > problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in > question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he > had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had > been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. > I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my > own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said > even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying > anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that > do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. > Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's > good exercise. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 06:06:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:06:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model References: <002501c0d8c7$6fad6520$33914d0c@o3n4f8> <001001c0d8fd$c01faa00$72184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001401c0d90f$03610280$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Correction: " People". No B......ds in the 303rd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > Correction. Don was KIA (rtb) on 14/5/43, the same day William Bales was > downed in the English Channel (not the North Sea) with no survivors. Joe > BTSFPLK II went down over St. Nazaire, France thirteen days earlier !/5/43. > > If anyone ever wonders about the mind boggling task ( and labor of love) it > must have been to compile, edit, up date, and research this kind of > information; you need to go see the chaplin in hopes that HE can give you > some religion. I am on my way there now. Hopefully, I will meet some of > you in the line, and we can B/S while we wait our turn. > Anyone that wants to see the roster, should "Buy The Book", as the saying > goes. > > The war is over, and we are going home. > > WELCOME HOME ! And, Thank you, you crazy brave foolish b.....ds. > > grant. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:34 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose guns prior ot the "G" model > > > > Harry Goebrecht , in a recent article, cites Cpt. Ross C. Bales , plt. > > "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" SSgts Ed Russell and Anthony Sequin with > innovating > > a design for a nose mounted 50 cal. to counter frontal assaults from > > attacking Luftwaffe fighters. This innovation was cobbled together from > > spare parts and ingenuity ( and necessity). According to Mr. Goebrechts > > article ( H. A. news ltr 5/01) this defensive invention was not installed > on > > the plane it was originally intended for, but was instead installed on > > #41-24610 ( "Joe BTFSPLK II). According to the article J-B, etc. was > lost > > over St. Nazaire on 5/1/43. The "Idaho Potatoe Peeler" was lost with all > > crew on 5/14/43 over the North Sea. I am aware of the necessity for crews > > and planes to be shifted around according to mission requirements often > > very confusing to follow ), but why would not Cpt. Bales have had the > > opportunity to use his invention before another crew did? > > > > How long did it take for this adaptation to be retro-fitted to other > > 7s?( My fathers pilot, Don Stockton was KIA from 20mm round during a > > frontal attack on " S for Sugar" in March of 43). > > > > All replies gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. > > > > ps. this was a very thought provoking article by Col. Goebrecht, but > > limited to space available in the new letter. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 06:24:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:24:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY References: <3AFA1EE8.43B7789A@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <003901c0d911$76c70600$8b184e0c@o3n4f8> Uwe, it is unenviable to be a wise man in the service of tyrants, or worse; fools. ( I am glad that your dad got home to his family; just as I am glad that you are his son.) LLoyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] V.E. DAY > Another fact that was verified by Field Marshal Rommel´s son , his wife and his > closest Staff officers is, that he, Rommel, had already made plans - around > July/August 44, after operation"Overlord" had succeded- to give orders to his > German troops in the West to retreat and let the Allied Forces pass through to > Germany! Just to hold the lines in the East as much as possible against the > Russians and keep the Russians out of Germany. At the end of June he already > stated in his staff that it´s a fact the war now is lost - just a matter of > time- and that it´s better to concentrate all troops at the Eastern front. > After the events of July 21st, 44, Rommel was also considered to have taken > part in the conspiracy against Hitler and was forced to suicide in Oct. 44. > Uwe > > Bill Jones schrieb: > > > > > > My question is > > > this - Is it possible that it was known in advance that Germany would > > > surrender on the 7th? Now that puzzles me - never thought about it till > > > now.. I hope there are some better memories out there than I have. > > > > I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I think I saw something > > about the surrender on the History channel once. I think it was a > > complicated thing, with the race between the US/British and the > > Russians to get as much territory as possible before the surrender, > > and the fact that the Germans preferred to surrender to the US > > rather than the Russians, etc. I think I heard something about > > there having been on surrender (perhaps to the British??) earlier > > than the 7th/8th, but that it wasn't accepted for some reason. > > > > > > > Thinking is hard on my memory chip----------CARRY ON! > > > > I'm amazed that you veterans can remember as much as you do. I > > know that even at my age, even the things I do remember, I'm not > > sure of. - i.e., dreams, stories that others told me, and even movies > > tend to blend in with reality. > > > > It made me feel a little better to read a story posted on the other > > bomber mailing list some time last year. This gentleman posted a > > message about how one of the things he remembered most vividly > > about the war years was when he was flying between two bases (I > > think it was in north Africa, but that isn't important). The story went > > on about running into a bit of weather, and stopping at an > > intermediate base to refuel. The story went into great detail about > > how he remembered even the smell of the fuel and the layout of the > > base. He said he remembered it like it was yesterday. The only > > problem was, he said, that he had never stopped at the base in > > question! He had checked pack in his logs, and in actuality, he > > had completely bypassed that base, and all his memories had > > been somehow fabricated in his mind over the years. > > I really related to that story. It made me feel better about my > > own lack of memory. It also made me trust the things he said > > even more, because I'm sure he checked his records before saying > > anything after that. It also points out that it is critical for those that > > do remember to share their stories now, before the memories fade. > > Anyway, don't feel bad about working your memory too hard, it's > > good exercise. > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 16:45:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:45:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <006101c0d968$383382e0$941b4e0c@o3n4f8> Rich, here is an anecdotal note regarding Joe BTFSPLK II. In the crew photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and Larry" are painted. Apparently , my father married "Dottie" before he shipped over to the ETO. My Aunt informs me that this marriage didn't last long when it was discovered that "Dottie" was more interested in the allotment check and was really looking forward to a financial windfall from the GI Insurance. ( Some gal, hey?). One of Dotties boyfriiends spilled the beans to Larrys family. That is not a letter I'd have wanted to write. The picture at the 303rd BGA was taken before they flew overseas. I reckon "Dottie" didn't stay aboard old Joe B for very long. My dad made his 25 physically in one piece, and supposedly went back for another tour although there is no record of this at the 303rd. Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Young" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > >name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > >names in the entire 8th AAF > > This is probably one of the best of aircraft names and one I might have > come up with had I been old enough to be there in England at the time. > Knowing Joe B. is the guy Al Capp "discovered" with the cloud over his > head, and which may have been appropriate for you guys who WERE there, what > is the rest of the story Lloyd? > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 19:50:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <006101c0d968$383382e0$941b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > In the crew > photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and > Larry" are painted. This brings up an interesting (to me anyway) topic. I had been interested in the fact that I've corresponded with several people who insist that their relatives flew in planes with names that differed from the "official" names that these planes had (by official I mean those listed on the aircraft inventories). One person I corresponded with insisted that her relative flew all 35 missions in a particular named plane that didn't exist in the records at that time he flew. I had come to the conclusion that there must have been "unofficial" names for these planes, or different names given by the different crew members, but I had no evidence of this until I looked at the video that has been making the rounds. It really struck me as to how many different names were painted on those early planes. Ie each crew position seemed to have a different name painted on it. Even the engines were named! Now I can understand why there might have been some ambiguity about the names of these planes, ie if the planes could have a half dozen different names painted on them. I was wondering whether this same sort of thing occurred later in the war? Ie did crew members still put the names of their choice around their crew positions even though they flew different planes each mission? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 20:33:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:33:55 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: Message-ID: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... It must be realized that there were only so many airplanes and so many crews and crew positions. When the mission demanded it a person flew WHICHEVER plane was available. Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. During the time I was CO of a Squadron I arranged for some fellows to have "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s, and take a picture so they could send it home to the loved one(s). In many cases, the paint was washed off within the hour. Also, when censoring letters I noted lots of fellows who dreamed up names for the purpose of telling their loved one(s) at home they named the plane for them, ... but they were names of planes which did not exist. That was the way I got my idea of having names "painted" on a B17 .. for the purpose of sending them home. Many times crews would be called out for a mission and "their" plane was not available, so they flew anoher one. In the end, we flew the planes we HAD with the crews we HAD at the time. Except for Mon cur, I do not recall any crew which flew so many mssions in "their own" plane. And for those who did a lot of leading, we flew whichever plane was set up for THAT particular mission. This included certain additional radio gear, etc. The plane under which my crew was photographed when we got there to Molesworth, we flew on ONE mission! I believe we could have helped a lot of moral if we did those "hourly" paint jobs that I did with certain fellows who wanted same. In the end, the MISSION is what counted. We flew the PLANES we had with the CREWS we had at the time. Some crews were even augmented now and then with DIFFERENT crew positions filled by MEN from other crews. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > In the crew > > photo of the plane just below the Navigators window the names "Dottie and > > Larry" are painted. > > This brings up an interesting (to me anyway) topic. I had been > interested in the fact that I've corresponded with several people who > insist that their relatives flew in planes with names that differed > from the "official" names that these planes had (by official I mean > those listed on the aircraft inventories). One person I corresponded > with insisted that her relative flew all 35 missions in a particular > named plane that didn't exist in the records at that time he flew. I > had come to the conclusion that there must have been "unofficial" > names for these planes, or different names given by the different > crew members, but I had no evidence of this until I looked at the > video that has been making the rounds. > It really struck me as to how many different names were painted > on those early planes. Ie each crew position seemed to have a > different name painted on it. Even the engines were named! Now I > can understand why there might have been some ambiguity about > the names of these planes, ie if the planes could have a half dozen > different names painted on them. > I was wondering whether this same sort of thing occurred later in > the war? Ie did crew members still put the names of their choice > around their crew positions even though they flew different planes > each mission? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 10 23:26:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:26:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> > Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern > Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many > missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 00:07:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bruce Brown) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:07:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 In-Reply-To: <001801c0d8c2$1b79dc40$31914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <008601c0d9a5$f247d900$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Al Capp, right? Lois Brown -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J Grant Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:56 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I read it twice there, and again when I got home.) Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I know I have at least two. I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd Grant. PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 01:11:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:11:05 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" In-Reply-To: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> References: <3AFAED22.C95E141E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010510141105.007b6650@ilhawaii.net> Gary, The Goodberlet crew flew 17 of their 36 missions in Bouncing Betty III. I'm sure we would have flown more if she had not been out action for a month after the 13January mission to Mannheim. After we got her back we flew 11 of our rmaining 16 missions in her. We thought of her as "our" aircraft. Jim Walling At 03:26 PM 5/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >> Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern >> Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many >> missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. > >Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of >her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new >aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." >The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she >was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to >have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to >complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of >the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew >photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. > >Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 00:57:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:57:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <008601c0d9a5$f247d900$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c0d9ac$fd4da3a0$3d904d0c@o3n4f8> Al Capp, had some strange folks in his fertile cartoonist brain. Joe BTFSPLK was one of them. A little guy in a slouch hat and a black cloud following him where ever he went. (nice going , Lois, you pegged it.) Does anyone remember the "Schmoo's" ? Good friends to have when the mess hall is closed. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Brown" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > Al Capp, right? Lois Brown > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J Grant > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:56 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 > > > It is always a thrill for me when the News letter arrives in the mail box. > I would like to take a moment to compliment Eddie Dearfield who edits this > always welcome and informative volume, and to thank the men and women who > contributed their stories and recollections. ( the security guard at the > post office was getting nervous about my being parked in the same place for > so long. When I showed him the News letter I was reading, he understood. I > read it twice there, and again when I got home.) > Imagine my surprise when on page twelve Harry Goebrecht had written a story > featuring old " Joe BTFSPLK II " Don Stocktons' original plane and the one > my father was the navigator on. That was a good story , Harry, thank you. > It will provoke some relevant questions about firepower in the nose end. I > know I have at least two. > I will leave the editorials to Eddie, but some of you who aren't subscribed > to this News Letter are missing out on some great information. > Well, enough wind from yours truly. Thank everyone concerned for a very > well done newsletter, for the photos and memories, and the stories. Lloyd > Grant. > > PS. anyone of the younger crowd who is curious about why some one would > name their B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " ( perhaps one of the oddest aircraft > names in the entire 8th AAF ----'challenge???'--- Dick Johnson, and Ed > Lamme " 'splained it to me , and I will be glad to pass that along to any > interested parties. Cheers, gentlemen ( and ladies). G. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 03:43:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:43:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010510141105.007b6650@ilhawaii.net> References: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> Message-ID: <3AFAEF46.5116.143FCD5@localhost> > > The Goodberlet crew flew 17 of their 36 missions in Bouncing Betty > III. I'm sure we would have flown more if she had not been out action > for a month after the 13January mission to Mannheim. After we got her > back we flew 11 of our rmaining 16 missions in her. We thought of her > as "our" aircraft. Jim, 17 out of 36 is quite a bit. I don't know, but I'd bet there weren't many that flew half their missions in the same B-17. From what I've heard talking with lots of 303rders, most had a favorite B-17 they called their own. I know Thunderbird was claimed by at least two other crews later on. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 03:57:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 02:57:53 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "own plane" Message-ID: <20010511025753.FTPY8055.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Gary, you are correct. I completed 14 missions prior to VE DAY in 10 different aircraft. ...Bill Runnels > > > > > > > Jim, > 17 out of 36 is quite a bit. I don't know, but I'd bet there weren't > many that flew half their missions in the same B-17. . > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 04:20:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:20:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <9d.15218953.282cb472@aol.com> I flew my missions during 1944. What happened before or after that I do not know from first hand experience. We paid no attention what so ever to names painted on the planes. Each plane had a squadron identification which consisted of two letters of the alphabet painted on the side The 358th was VK some other squadron had BN. Then each bird had a letter printed on the vertical tail like A able B baker C Charlie D dog. etc. We were assigned a bird VK I . The radio call sign would be vipped Kreem I Item. It had no name while I was there. If the plane was flyable and we were flying we usually flew it. If it was available and we were not flying some other crew probably flew it. If we were flying and VK I Item was not available we flew another bird. The name did not matter. The Squadrons 2 letters and the planes letter was our radio call sign and what we called the plane. When we had our crew picture taken it was in front of a plane I never remember flying. and they had one crew after another line up in front of the same bird to take their picture. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 06:45:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:45:24 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea which I'm sure satisfied many back home to endure the clouds of wartime. When my brother Dave & his wife Tawny were originally searching for her father, her mom said "his" aircraft was named "Ginger" though I believe no record of it exists in the 303rd and is probably another of those stories sent home. The new B17G Lt. Roy and crew flew over to England named "Old Daddy Rabbit" apparently in some reference to his active living. This one was taken away on arrival & prior to their assignment to the 427th. And to Mr. Bob Hand, with your artistic abilities, did you do any "decoration" of aircraft while at Molesworth? Best regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 08:29:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:29:37 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: Message-ID: <3AFB94E0.EFF5A2F@attglobal.net> Rich Young ... The "name" painting was a great morale booster at the time. Cheers! Bill Heller Rich Young wrote: > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea which I'm sure satisfied > many back home to endure the clouds of wartime. When my brother Dave & his > wife Tawny were originally searching for her father, her mom said "his" > aircraft was named "Ginger" though I believe no record of it exists in the > 303rd and is probably another of those stories sent home. The new B17G Lt. > Roy and crew flew over to England named "Old Daddy Rabbit" apparently in > some reference to his active living. This one was taken away on arrival & > prior to their assignment to the 427th. > > And to Mr. Bob Hand, with your artistic abilities, did you do any > "decoration" of aircraft while at Molesworth? > > Best regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 08:21:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:21:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 References: <3AFAB329.30979.59200C@localhost> Message-ID: <3AFB92E1.4C7F5D95@attglobal.net> Thanks Gary. Hello and love to the family. Cheers ... Ruth and Bill Gary Moncur wrote: > > Very few flew their "own plane" on all missions. I believe Vern > > Moncur may have been the only one with his crew who flew so many > > missions in the plane they called their own, as it were. Thunderbird. > > Dad and his crew were fortunate to do so. They flew her on 20 of > her first 24 missions. She was assigned to them as a brand new > aircraft for their 7th mission and they named her "Thunderbird." > The only time they didn't fly Thunderbird after that was when she > was being repaired. It is interesting to note that Thunderbird had to > have a wing replaced after her very first mission, yet went on to > complete 112. It is also interesting that there is no crew photo of > the Moncur Crew with Thunderbird. The official Molesworth crew > photo is with 8-Ball Mk II (41-24635), which they *never* flew. > > Bill, your "paint the names on with watercolors" was a great idea! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:47:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:47:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter 5/01 Message-ID: <7a.149ed2ba.282d3948@aol.com> We flew 26 out of 35 missions in F-PU 46517 with Fink's Crew....great mother plane to us all....first mission was in "Aloha" with Beazly as pilot and Fink as copilot. Bombed the Kalk-Nord RR yards Oct. 17 '44 Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:50:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:50:02 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: Story about Al Capp who only had one leg and while staying in hotels used to terrify room service jocks by leaving his prosthesis poking out from under the bed. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 13:18:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:18:04 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: Message-ID: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had Carl Maulden. > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! You > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 15:11:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bruce Brown) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:11:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] About VE day... Message-ID: <004401c0da24$38fa9d00$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> ...since we had only just learned my brother Howie was "missing in action," I think my folks were too miserable to celebrate VE Day. I have no memory of it, anyway. But I have a distinct memory of VJ day the following August. We had (still have) a country place in the Berkshires of Western Massachusetts. The moment school let out in June, Mom would whisk us into the car, towels, quilts, bathing suits, sweaters, and Dad either would drive us up from Mount Vernon (just north of NYC) or we would take the train. In those days, we spent the entire summer at our house on Lake Buel, while Dad came up on weekends. In 1945 I was the only one left at home to whisk. It was a sober summer. Though quite young, I did a lot of thinking, a lot of growing up. Early in August I heard on our radio that the Japanese had surrendered. Stunning news in that beautiful place. I clearly remember I stood by myself on our screened porch that overlooked the lake. The surface of the water was as still as glass, so that the opposite shore was mirrored in its reflection. Now and then fish rose after a fly, leaving a concentric circle which widened to overlap another, and another, and another. Everything seemed same as it always had been, yet somewhere, far, far away, World War II was over and nothing would be the same again. Hugs to everyone, Lois From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 15:14:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:14:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Whoops... Message-ID: <004501c0da24$a3365a60$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> ...sometimes I use our generic Road Runner address by mistake. "itslois@rochester.rr.com" is my very own. Itslois From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 20:08:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:08:25 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: <3f.14f753b9.282d92a9@aol.com> Steve Canyon and bro. were the work of Milton Canniff....ah yes, his Dragon Lady. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 20:17:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AFC3AAD.1661A95F@attglobal.net> Grant ... BILL Malden .... Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything > possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up > for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely > delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been > awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a > person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. > Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On > this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had > Carl Maulden. > > > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! > You > > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... > anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 22:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:12:16 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <001101c0da14$70909ae0$278f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFC3AAD.1661A95F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001801c0da5f$114d49c0$9f8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Roger that. What the heck was I thinking. More than just a cartoonist, BILL MALDEN, was quite a human being. Cheers and thanks for the correction. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Grant ... > > BILL Malden .... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Rich, Schmoos were very agreeable little critters that would do anything > > possible to make a person happy even to the point of "cooking" themselves up > > for you if you were hungry. Schmoos were reported to be absolutely > > delicious. They were roundish globular looking creatures. ( it has been > > awhile back for me too.) The term, "Schmoo" is generally attributed to a > > person who goes out of his way to ingratiate himself with everyone. > > Remember Steve Canyon, or Terry and the Pirates (Dragon Lady et al) ? On > > this subject, I wonder if the Air Force had a Cartoonist . The Infantry had > > Carl Maulden. > > > > > > ( I was hoping to make some money on that "Joe BTSFPLK II" question,) > > > > > > Sorry Lloyd, you might try it on some of the younger young kids though! > > You > > > could get me on the shmoos maybe as I don't remember what they did. > > > > > > ( "names" water painted on the nose(s) of B17s ) > > > > > > Mr. Heller, your waterpaint names is a great idea ... > > anent this; the mark of a good LEADER. Lloyd > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 22:22:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:22:49 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <3f.14f753b9.282d92a9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001e01c0da60$89239520$9f8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Bob, I had forgotten who drew that strip. I was pretty much of a "shaver" in those days. Can you believe , I got Carl Mauldens' name twisted up with Bill Malden. Cheese ! Bill Heller put me back on the right track on that one. Very best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Steve Canyon and bro. were the work of Milton Canniff....ah yes, his Dragon > Lady. Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 23:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:35:33 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " Message-ID: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while reading it !!LOL Cheers, Moofy (Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:09:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:09:14 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter Message-ID: <8f.ab93189.282dcb1a@aol.com> --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd--- 1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin. 2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again. Mike Zarelli --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---
            1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin.
            2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again.
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_8f.ab93189.282dcb1a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:34:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:34:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " Message-ID: Hello Moofy! Another demon of our American funny-papers was a character who said "Nov schmoz kapop!" Don't think anyone ever found out what that meant, either. Hope you're enjoying some decent weather...had an ideal sunny breezy day in the high 70's. No doubt somebody'll be on line with the exact dude who uttered that bit of nonsense. Have a most happy "MUM'S' day!! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 11 23:40:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:40:02 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter References: <8f.ab93189.282dcb1a@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0da6b$53a5bb20$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> I have been brought to task several times for that gaff, Mike, but thanks. Hope you enjoy the tape. Let me know when you get it. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Hells Angels Newsletter > Lloyd--- > 1-The infantry cartoonist was Bill Mauldin. > 2-I'll be on the lookout for the tape. Thanx again. > > Mike Zarelli > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:14:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:14:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " References: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001201c0da70$1a1749a0$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Moofy, this explaination of Joe BTFSPLK may be a bit repetitive for some and I hope they will indulge this reiteration. Al Capp (a very well known cartoonist of the era) did a daily strip in the funny paper section called "L'il Abner" there were a host of characters based on an Arkansas Hillbilly community. Joe BTFSPLK was one of these characters. He was the epitome of "Catch 22"; nothing ever went right for him. He was depicted as a little guy wearing a black slouch hat. Every where he went a dark cloud hovered over him. It could be a bright sun shiney day all around him , but he was always getting rained on. Needless to say, he didn't have a very good attitude about things. The strip was intended to parody the mores and customs of the times, and was very popular ( much like "Giles", and I am sure you remember, Giles making fun of EVERYBODY). There were alot of other characters equally as interesting, for instance "Fearless Fosdick", "Daisey Mae" "L'il Abner" and a host of others. Sadly, there is not much on the internet that I have found that has much information about the strip. Why Don Stockton, (and/or) his crew mates decided to christen 42-24610 with this name is anyones guess. It was rather unique tho. F/O Zooey sends her regards in addition to mine. Very Best to you, and the Newly Weds. Lloyd. (ps. if the letters actually were an anagram for something, very likely, only Al Capp knew.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > > Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me > 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you > put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I > promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while > reading it !!LOL > Cheers, > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 00:20:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:20:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " References: Message-ID: <001801c0da70$ee226e00$e68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, Nov schmoz kapop! Now, there is a bit of nonsense I haven't used. Thanks for the tip. :=)) LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > Hello Moofy! Another demon of our American funny-papers was a character > who said "Nov schmoz kapop!" Don't think anyone ever found out what that > meant, either. Hope you're enjoying some decent weather...had an ideal sunny > breezy day in the high 70's. No doubt somebody'll be on line with the exact > dude who uttered that bit of nonsense. > Have a most happy "MUM'S' day!! Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 02:22:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:22:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May newsletter). Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on this. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 03:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:55:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England References: <003a01c0da6a$b14ee4a0$76007ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <007201c0da8e$f54f4cc0$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Moofy, Where in the UK are you? I am going over there the first 2 weeks in Oct., with a bunch of 91st vets, for "one last time". Maybe we can shake hands, if it works out. Gordy ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd - re " Joe BTFSPLK II " > > Lloyd, I have to admit that the name of B17 " Joe BTFSPLK II " has had me > 'wondering' as to what it stood for. So, as I am a 'lady' please could you > put me out of my misery by explaining the meaning behind this name. I > promise if there are any 'rude' words in it, I will close my eye's while > reading it !!LOL > Cheers, > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:01:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:01:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] About VE day... Message-ID: <7a.14a73b53.282e01a0@aol.com> lois. what a nice enjoyable picture you have painted. cheers for being so very fortunate. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:44:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:44:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: <30.14995767.282e0ba5@aol.com> Mr. Lloyd J. Grant, I flew both F and G models and some earlier ones. If you read the specs in the books there might have been a 2 or 3 mile per hour difference in the speeds between the two. The chin turret undoubtedly added a bit of drag and weight BUT no one flying the two birds could detect any difference. If a bird had repairs, a wing change, an engine change, the controls reriged, a paint job, a sick engine, turbo. or prop, a forward center of gravity or lots of hours it could have changes in performance that would make the chin turret change insignificant. The F had guns in the nose but they were flexible guns like the waist guns and you only fired one a time. The chin turret had a much better optical sight and you fired two guns at once so it tossed twice as much lead per minute. It was a very effective modification after we learned how to use them and made no noticeable difference in the flight characteristics of the B17G and the Fs that had them. My research indicates that flies do a half roll when they land on the ceiling and a split S when they leave. Except horse flies who's tails got in the way and I. could not observe them. I also found that flies are more attracted to peach jam than honey. PS Does anyone know how to get sweet stains off ones kitchen ceiling? Best Wishes, See you in Baltimore come September Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:53:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:53:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power Message-ID: call in the MERRY MAIDS> spec jack ,did i read on this line recently a request that users set out their life's trails since wwLL? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:35:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:35:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <30.14995767.282e0ba5@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0da94$a11692c0$24904d0c@o3n4f8> As ever, thank you, Mr. Rencher ( Jack). I have heard and read various opinions on this subject. The concensus seems to be in agreement with your remarks, ie. the added firepower where it was needed far outweighed any liabilities from weight and drag. Another part of the question related to ( for lack of a better word) retrofitting a nose gun into the front of the plane that the bombadier/ or, navigator could fire straight ahead. For what seems to me, apparent reasons, the top turrett could not deflect enough to engage a straight on , or a low frontal attack. Neither could the original "F" model chin guns. The origin of my curiosity is Mr. Goebrechts article in the recent news letter. Who only knows how many times this guestion has been asked of you guys. I just wanted to give it one more good lashing, I suppose. Il fait pas de quois, mon ami. Since some other fool initiated that question about the flies I have gone to great pains to observe the cited flight maneuvers of these insidious air pirates and I have to agree with your findings, Mr R. Definately a half roll landing, and almost invariably a split S on departure ( provided the aerosol didn't get them). In Idaho perhaps Peach jam does it for them, down here it is without fail , Strawberry jam. Swat one for me. Thanks again, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Mr. Lloyd J. Grant, I flew both F and G models and some earlier ones. If you > read the specs in the books there might have been a 2 or 3 mile per hour > difference in the speeds between the two. The chin turret undoubtedly added > a bit of drag and weight BUT no one flying the two birds could detect any > difference. If a bird had repairs, a wing change, an engine change, the > controls reriged, a paint job, a sick engine, turbo. or prop, a forward > center of gravity or lots of hours it could have changes in performance that > would make the chin turret change insignificant. > > The F had guns in the nose but they were flexible guns like the waist > guns and you only fired one a time. The chin turret had a much better > optical sight and you fired two guns at once so it tossed twice as much lead > per minute. It was a very effective modification after we learned how to use > them and made no noticeable difference in the flight characteristics of the > B17G and the Fs that had them. > > My research indicates that flies do a half roll when they land on the > ceiling and a split S when they leave. Except horse flies who's tails got in > the way and I. could not observe them. I also found that flies are more > attracted to peach jam than honey. > PS Does anyone know how to get sweet stains off ones kitchen ceiling? > Best Wishes, See you in Baltimore come September > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 04:49:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:49:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: Message-ID: <001201c0da96$9a8f3540$24904d0c@o3n4f8> Yes, sir. If I read you correctly here. I believe it was me that made a comment about the war being over, or words to that effect a few days ago. In retrospect, that comment was probably as ill founded as some others I have made. Mr. Rencher has the right idea when it comes to taking offense. Why bother? In any case, no offense is ever intended, the choice of words is occassoionally regretable. ( I hope this was aimed at me. I sure hate to waste a good apology. I am running low.) Cheers, Spec. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > call in the MERRY MAIDS> spec jack ,did i read on this line recently a > request that users set out their life's trails since wwLL? spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 08:13:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 00:13:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Grant ... The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > newsletter). > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > this. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 14:54:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:54:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000d01c0daeb$0eb3ad80$66874d0c@o3n4f8> Yes, sir. Thank you. As Mr. Rencher commented, the comfort of the added firepower where it was needed would certainly overcome the modest liabilities of the added drag on the planes equipped with the chin turret. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Grant ... > > The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with > certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > > newsletter). > > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > > this. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 15:47:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:47:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power References: <000701c0da82$07c79d60$e38f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AFCE2A6.33E4E65C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <005601c0daf3$621f4b20$bc09f4cc@e0y0k4> I believe that the 'G' model had enough engine, prop, and turbocharger improvements that the total loss in IAS was less than 10 knots. Bomb load was supposed to be higher, in theory, at least. I'd love to hear from some of the pilots if the theory matched with the facts. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: forward fire power > Grant ... > > The chin turret just added a little more drag. Though drag may be popular with > certain types of fellows it is anathema to an airplane. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > With regard to "necessity being the mother of invention" (303rd BGA, May > > newsletter). > > Before the "G" model B17 was available with a forward firing chin turret, > > innovations were made to install a 50 cal. in the nose of at least one 303rd > > bomber. It has been stated that this was an effective counter-measure to > > frontal attacks by Luftwaffe fighters. Was this innovation widely adopted > > throughout the groups' other squadrons, or was it limited by the scarcity of > > adaptable parts? Was the information about this adaptation shared with > > other groups? For those with experience in both the "F" and "G" models, > > how did the addition of the chin turret on the "G" model affect the flight > > characteristics of the plane ( pre and post IP) ? > > Was the addition of the Chin Turret an effective deterrent in lieu of the > > added weight and drag created? Thank you all for any light you can shed on > > this. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 18:57:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:57:47 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Bob. Message-ID: <001b01c0db0d$0e3fe4a0$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Bob, Would you believe Mr. Sun has found his way to our little island at long last, and we are really enjoying it. This morning I went into Chester and stood next to a 'lady' in one of the shops who was complaining that 'it is too hot' !! (Typical English !!)LOL Thank you for the 'MUM'S' day good wishes, Mother's day here was the 26th March, but I am not complaining with sharing another 'MUM'S day is just great. Thank you again kind sir. Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 18:56:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:56:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this question. To me, although I understand that on a B-17 they have different duties, both a pilot and co-pilot would seem to both have to be "pilots" , ie both are capable of flying a plane. However I have noticed in messages from several people, quite a bit of territorialism with respect to these positions. The question I have deals with the "loading lists" that I find on the microfilm records. These loading lists give the crew assignments for each plane on each mission. The information given in the loading list includes (1) the position flown on that particular day, (2) the person's name, (3) rank, (4) what I think must be the job description of the individual, ie MOS or whatever they call it. Usually, the lists look like: P Name rank P CP Name rank CP N Name rank N B Name rank B etc, etc However often you see something like; P Name rank CP CP Name rank P etc, etc I "think" this would typically be when an experienced pilot was checking out a new pilot who had previously flown as a co-pilot, on his first mission as a pilot, because usually a mission or 2 after that, the pilot's rating would be changed to P . However I am VERY confused with respect to the ratings that accompanied my father's name on the loading lists. He didn't come to Molesworth as part of a crew, so for the first 3 months, he only flew a few missions, a couple as co-pilot, and one as pilot, but the job description column was listed as "P" . Then, he started flying with a crew that was a group of people who had all previously flown on other crews, and he flew as co-pilot, with a pilot who was previously a co-pilot. He flew 7 missions with this crew, and on each mission, even though he was flying as co-pilot, his job description was still listed as "P" . After that, he started flying as a pilot, however on his first several missions as a pilot, his job description was changed to "CP", and it wasn't until he started flying as a squadron lead pilot that it was changed back to "P" . Can someone explain the switch from "P" to "CP" and back to "P" ? Was this some kind of demotion of status, or was it likely just some book-keeping irregularity? In looking through lots of these loading lists, I haven't run across something like this with anyone else, however my father's situation was different from most other pilots there because he served nearly 3 years as a flying instructor before coming to Molesworth, so he was an experienced pilot, but he had very little time in B-17s when he got there, having only gone through about 6 weeks of 4-eng transition before going overseas. Anyway, I've been confused as to why he flew co-pilot with a pilot's rating, then flew as pilot with a co-pilots rating.... just seemed strange. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 19:20:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:20:18 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. Message-ID: <002301c0db10$3392eb00$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Well what a great little character Joe BTFSPLK appears to have been. By the sound of him, I think he moved in round the corner from our house !! LOL You have solved a few 'mystery's' for me, as now I know where the nose art names of "L'il Abner, Fearless Fosdick, and Daisey Mae all came from. Well the 'big day' is getting closer, in fact four weeks today, and we should just have finished the 'Wedding Breakfast (who else but the English would sit down to breakfast at 5pm in the evening !!)LOL Four weeks tomorrow, Pete will know if it was all worth the big 'hole' in his bank account it has cost him !!LOL Please give F/O Zooey a big hug from me. (and tell her to give you a big lick from me !!) Luvs and Hugs Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 19:30:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:30:55 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England Message-ID: <002b01c0db11$aec75580$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Gordy, We live in the North West of England, about 7 miles from the Roman City of Chester, and just over the Mersey from Liverpool. Would you believe it, we are going down to spend a week in East Anglia, staying at Peterborough from 1st July so I can visit some of the 8thAF bases. Doubt we will be able to get down there again in October, as it is Pete's busy time at work. Still, perhaps when you know where you are staying, you could send me your hotel phone number, and I can ring you and say 'Hi' (let me know what you think Gordy ).. It is when all the vets are coming over for visits, that I wish we lived down in the East Anglia region !!LOL Hope you are having a good day, Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:34:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:34:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp Message-ID: <65.143c30e7.282ef866@aol.com> I saw Al Capp on TV once and he explained why he was not on the Congressional Investigation List. He said that when he was in college there was a Communist Group that had Free Beer periodically. The catch was that it cost a quarter, I think monthly, to belong. He said that he never had a quarter so he never became a member so no Free beer. Cheers, Bill D From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:11:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:11:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. References: <002301c0db10$3392eb00$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001201c0db1f$af4cf7e0$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Moofey, may the Schmoos attend to you all. (if you all are done with all that rain, us Crackers would be glad to put it to good use). Regards from Coyote Airlines, and F/O. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'Joe BTFSPLK ' Thanks Lloyd. > Well what a great little character Joe BTFSPLK appears to have been. By the > sound of him, I think he moved in round the corner from our house !! LOL > You have solved a few 'mystery's' for me, as now I know where the nose art > names of "L'il Abner, Fearless Fosdick, and Daisey Mae all came from. > > Well the 'big day' is getting closer, in fact four weeks today, and we > should just have finished the 'Wedding Breakfast (who else but the English > would sit down to breakfast at 5pm in the evening !!)LOL Four weeks > tomorrow, Pete will know if it was all worth the big 'hole' in his bank > account it has cost him !!LOL > Please give F/O Zooey a big hug from me. (and tell her to give you a big > lick from me !!) > Luvs and Hugs > Moofy > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:13:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:13:02 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp References: <65.143c30e7.282ef866@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c0db1f$f3b0e720$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, any word from the pony express?? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #269 - Al Capp > I saw Al Capp on TV once and he explained why he was not on the Congressional > Investigation List. He said that when he was in college there was a Communist > Group that had Free Beer periodically. The catch was that it cost a quarter, > I think monthly, to belong. He said that he never had a quarter so he never > became a member so no Free beer. > Cheers, > Bill D > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 21:58:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:58:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <002a01c0db26$43171400$121b4e0c@o3n4f8> Em dokeymints cum in on the express, pard. Har! e aint no green stick, ats fur shor. 'am right nough obleeged fer the fat taller, an the jaw-bone. Thankee, companero. What a treat that was , Mtn. Man. Don't ever cut yourself short, sir. I thoroughly enjoyed reading all of it. Your memories of Molesworth and the trip across the "pond" are what I have asked for many times at the 303rd forum. With your permission, I will share these recollections with some other guys who would be equally glad to read them like Bill Owens, Donald Kehne, Gordy Alton and a few others. It is sad that alot of the guys that probably monitor our chin-chins on the forum wont kick in their two cents worth also. Perhaps they feel like their contributions were not important because they weren't risking their lives flying missions. Well, the fact is there wouldn't have been any missions if it hadn't been for the combined efforts and sacrifice of everyone. I don't think I am alone in this thinking at all, and, certainly not by the men who did fly them. Very best to you, Mr. Paulk, and please tell your bride Happy Moms' Day from all of us at "Coyote Airlines" ( the only Airline without a plane ; a very "sensible" omission) . Cheers. Lloyd Grant. HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL THE COURAGEOUS GALS WHO KEEP THESE FELLOWS IN LINE. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 12 23:48:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:48:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: <65.144215c3.282f17c5@aol.com> Bill Jones, All copilots are pilots. A pilot is a rating. It has nothing to do with rank. A pilot could be a General or a Sergeant. A copilot is a position on the crew A pilot could fly as tail gunner. and some of them did in the lead airplane to judge the formation. It was not unusual for two rated first pilots to fly on one crew. One could log all the first pilot time or they could split it. Some squadrons did it one way. Some another. Usually when a Group flew as lead Group on a mission, there might be a General Senior Pilot flying as Pilot or copilot. Usually the other pilot was a very experienced First pilot and maybe a Captain or Major. But he might be listed as and flying as copilot. One had to be checked out in each type of plane to fly as first pilot. He might not be checked out in B17s as first pilot and have 20,000 hours as first pilot in B24s. It was not at all unusual for a first pilot to fly as copilot. I personally had several hundred hours in B17s as first pilot in a gunnery school and went overseas as a copilot. I had several hundred hours more first pilot hours in B17s than did my first pilot. I flew about half my missions as first pilot and half as copilot. On new crews They often left the copilot home or on another crew and I flew with the new pilot to check him and his crew out on their first combat mission. On such assignments I considered myself as the absolute boss and Instructor pilot but I was listed on the loading lists as copilot. This was so the regular pilot would get the time as first pilot. Other Squadrons might have done it differently. It sounds to me like your Father had a similar job to what I did. Don't ask me why I went over as a copilot. It is a Military Secret. I am so stupid I can bounce a B17 equally well from either seat. I often got 4 to 6 bounces from each landing. Or you might say 4 to 6 landings from each approach. It didn't matter if the Throttles were in my left hand or my right. I should have left the gear up. They don't bounce to well on their belly. If someone else answers you, believe them not me. It won't hurt my feelings. I was a first pilot in B24s too.(Not in the War) They are harder to bounce Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:19:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:19:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England References: <002b01c0db11$aec75580$a7407ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001b01c0db4a$ca1dfe40$8709f4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks, Moofy. I'll let you know when I get our itinerary, and we'll touch base again. We can swap numbers then. Best to you and Pete. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Speaking of England > Hi Gordy, > We live in the North West of England, about 7 miles from the Roman City of > Chester, and just over the Mersey from Liverpool. Would you believe it, we > are going down to spend a week in East Anglia, staying at Peterborough from > 1st July so I can visit some of the 8thAF bases. Doubt we will be able to > get down there again in October, as it is Pete's busy time at work. Still, > perhaps when you know where you are staying, you could send me your hotel > phone number, and I can ring you and say 'Hi' (let me know what you think > Gordy ).. It is when all the vets are coming over for visits, that I wish > we lived down in the East Anglia region !!LOL > Hope you are having a good day, > Luvs and Hugs, > Moofy > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:55:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:55:37 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, if you are still interested in trips across the pond I will be glad to share mine as it was exciting to say the least.I did not keep a log so I can;t give you the exact dates, only the general time frame. We picked up a new B-17G at Hunter Field, Ga. and headed for Bangor, Me. We were contacted en-route and ordered to land in Trenton, N.J. as there was an ice storm over the Atlantic. I remember we spent both Christmas and New Years Eve there. New Years Eve at Times Square was a blast. Then on to Bangor. I landed the aircraft and didn't do to bad for a bombardier. After a few days on to Goose Bay, Lab. Here again we spent a few days getting ready for the big one. They dispatched our group of 20 B-17's at night. Navigation was impossible as we couldn't see the stars or the ocean. The metro data they provided turned out to be bad. We reached the point where we should be able to pick up the radio signal on the southern tip of Greenland, but we couldn't. A short time later we did and discovered that we were far north of course. We turned due south and homed in on the radio signal. A new course was plotted and we had just cleared the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn that the field was closed due high surface winds. Consideration was given to bailing out over the ice caps but this thought process didn't prevail on a crew vote. The only other choice was to attempt a landing at Buie- west #1. They advised they didn't have electric runway lights and the winds were to strong for the pots. Jeeps with lights on were parked at each end of the runway. We let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. When I dropped out of the nose hatch the wind blew me several hundred feet from the plane. They picked us up with a truck. Five of the twenty B-17's landed in Greenland. We were informed that two sent in S.O.S. signals. One of the two made it and one was lost. The balance of the group made Iceland as scheduled. While in Greenland someone stole my two boxes of candy bars. HA Two days later we departed for Iceland. We encountered thunder heads en-route, lost our main oxygen supply and dropped down to 18,000 feet. Our bail out bottles provided oxygen for the pilot. co-pilot and navigator. Our navigator would look at me on the floor and say Bill you are turning blue again and hand me his mask for a minute or two. We made Iceland okay then on to Valley , Wales the next day. The aircraft was left at Valley and we were trucked to Molesworth arriving on February 1, 1945. What a trip!....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 02:11:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:11:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints References: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <000901c0db49$b7dec760$26914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Sir. You guys should have been credited with a couple of combat missions after that trip. Good story ! Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints > Lloyd, if you are still interested in trips across the > pond I will be glad to share mine as it was exciting to > say the least.I did not keep a log so I can;t give you > the exact dates, only the general time frame. We picked > up a new B-17G at Hunter Field, Ga. and headed for > Bangor, Me. We were contacted en-route and ordered to > land in Trenton, N.J. as there was an ice storm over the > Atlantic. I remember we spent both Christmas and New > Years Eve there. New Years Eve at Times Square was a > blast. Then on to Bangor. I landed the aircraft and > didn't do to bad for a bombardier. After a few days on > to Goose Bay, Lab. Here again we spent a few days > getting ready for the big one. They dispatched our group > of 20 B-17's at night. Navigation was impossible as we > couldn't see the stars or the ocean. The metro data they > provided turned out to be bad. We reached the point > where we should be able to pick up the radio signal on > the southern tip of Greenland, but we couldn't. A short > time later we did and discovered that we were far north > of course. We turned due south and homed in on the radio > signal. A new course was plotted and we had just cleared > the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil > announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make > Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio > contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn > that the field was closed due high surface winds. > Consideration was given to bailing out over the ice caps > but this thought process didn't prevail on a crew vote. > The only other choice was to attempt a landing at Buie- > west #1. They advised they didn't have electric runway > lights and the winds were to strong for the pots. Jeeps > with lights on were parked at each end of the runway. We > let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the > base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of > the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. When > I dropped out of the nose hatch the wind blew me several > hundred feet from the plane. They picked us up with a > truck. Five of the twenty B-17's landed in Greenland. We > were informed that two sent in S.O.S. signals. One of > the two made it and one was lost. The balance of the > group made Iceland as scheduled. While in Greenland > someone stole my two boxes of candy bars. HA Two days > later we departed for Iceland. We encountered thunder > heads en-route, lost our main oxygen supply and dropped > down to 18,000 feet. Our bail out bottles provided > oxygen for the pilot. co-pilot and navigator. Our > navigator would look at me on the floor and say Bill you > are turning blue again and hand me his mask for a minute > or two. We made Iceland okay then on to Valley , Wales > the next day. The aircraft was left at Valley and we > were trucked to Molesworth arriving on February 1, 1945. > What a trip!....Bill Runnels > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 04:14:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:14:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new Message-ID: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> I've been watching this talk board for about 5 months without actually posting myself. It has been very interesting. In fact one can learn more listening than talking. However now there is something that I would like to say. The pilot of out 427th, Miss. Lace, crew was Fred Mitchell, a great guy. We flew on 31 missions from 4/30/44 to 7/29/44 on which I served as right waist gunner. Shortly after starting, we were assigned three missions to Berlin. This brings up an odd thing,especially near Berlin and on a few other missions we observed a BLACK B-17 way off in the distance at our altitude flying by itself. No doubt it was a plane the Germans captured and was flown to get our altitude. However I have never heard any reference about this since. Also on the afternoon of DDay I viewed a sight that is glued to my memory, the sight of hundreds of ships going into the coast of France in three lines about 15 miles apart. I thanked God that we were up there instead of down there. Also have any of you been to the new DDay museum in New Orleans? We qwent though it last December and it is GREAT. If you haven't been there, make it a must. WR Byers From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 07:16:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 02:16:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <4e.15d4432b.282f80b0@aol.com> bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 13:24:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:24:47 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints Message-ID: <20010513122448.VMYX12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Good morning Spec, Valley, Wales does not appear on todays maps. I assume it was some sort of military base. We landed there both going and returning. Hopefully someone out there can help us with this one. Regards, Bill Runnels > bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 13:56:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:56:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BW1-Greenland In-Reply-To: <20010513015537.UEVL2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > A new course was plotted and we had just cleared > the ice caps of Greenland when our navigator, Jim O'neil > announced that we didn't have enough fuel to make > Iceland. We turned back over the ice caps and made radio > contact with the Buie-west #1 Air Base only to learn > that the field was closed due high surface winds. > ........... We > let down over the Atlantic and flew up the fjord to the > base. It was so rough and I recall that all members of > the crew were sick. A successful landing was made. ......... >....... > What a trip!....Bill Runnels > THanks for the story. Sounds like it WAS quite a trip. One of the few things my father told me about his experiences was about having to land at BW1 Greenland on the way back to the States. He told me about flying up the fiord you mentioned, and added that the decision to land had to be made in just a few seconds after making a turn near the end of the fiord, because there was a huge glacier or something at the end of the runway, and if you couldn't land, you couldn't climb over it, and couldn't turn to get out of the fiord. I mentioned BW1 on the other mailing list last year, and a couple of the pilots mentioned that they were told to avoid trying to land at BW-1, and to use that base as a last resort. Also, someone recommended that I read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann. I bought the book, which turned out to be the accounts of a pilot who flew a cargo plane that flew all sorts of things to military bases during the war. I didn't read the whole book, but I did read the 3 chapters that dealt with the trip from Bangor, thru Canada to Greenland and Iceland. It is really worth reading just for those chapters. I think I already referred you to the following, but others might be interested: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bw1-br.html and http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bw1-brR.html Which is a weather map for the trip from BW1 to the US. And also, http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/atlcert.html which was a semi-serious certificate awarded to pilots who made the trip. THanks for the story. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 14:15:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:15:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new In-Reply-To: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> Message-ID: > This brings up an odd thing,especially near Berlin and on a few other > missions we observed a BLACK B-17 way off in the distance at our altitude > flying by itself. No doubt it was a plane the Germans captured and was flown > to get our altitude. However I have never heard any reference about this > since. There was quite a bit of discussion about the black B-17s on another mailing list about a year ago, however I don't think there was any consensus as to what they were used for. I think the suspicion was that they were USAAF planes used for secret missions, as a couple people reported seeing them at their air bases. At the same time, there was a discussion of "carpetbagger" missions, and I am not sure if the two discussions were related. Ie is it possible that these planes were being used to drop supplies to underground or something? Although I guess that type of thing would not have been done in the daytime? It will be interesting to see if anyone in this group has any knowledge of them. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 14:26:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:26:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dokeymints In-Reply-To: <20010513122448.VMYX12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > Good morning Spec, Valley, Wales does not appear on > todays maps. I assume it was some sort of military base. > We landed there both going and returning. Hopefully > someone out there can help us with this one. > Regards, Bill Runnels > > bill i can not find valley wales on maps i see. can you find it? spec > > Valley is on the weather map that I just gave the URL of. Actually the second of the 3 URLs. It doesn't show it in much detail though, since the map shows everything from the French coast to lake Erie. It looks like about 53.1 deg lat, 4.0 deg W long. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 15:16:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:16:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new References: <22.15ea7ac0.282f55f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c0dbb7$588ce260$28184e0c@o3n4f8> Unasked questions go unanswered. Comments and recollections withheld are like a message sealed in a bottle and tossed into the sea. Thank you for sharing your recollections, sir. Every fragment has a place in the puzzle. LGrant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brand new > I've been watching this talk board for about 5 months without actually > posting myself. It has been very interesting. In fact one can learn more > listening than talking. However now there is something that I would like to > say. . > WR Byers From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 16:19:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:19:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Russian Fighters Message-ID: <16.cb9a97e.28300003@aol.com> --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to tell you gentlemen, I really enjoy reading your accounts during the war. I have read about two accounts of American bombers flying missions over Eastern Europe and being attacked by Russian fighters. I don't remember, but I think some of the Russian fighters were shot down by our gunners. Did any of you encounter any Russian fighters or hear of any encounters? Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to tell you gentlemen, I really enjoy reading your accounts during
the war. I have read about two accounts of American bombers flying missions
over Eastern Europe and being attacked by Russian fighters. I don't remember,
but I think some of the Russian fighters were shot down by our gunners. Did
any of you encounter any Russian fighters or hear of  any encounters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_16.cb9a97e.28300003_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 17:43:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:43:32 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BW1-Greenland Message-ID: <20010513164333.WYRQ12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, regarding Buie West #1, it was easier on the way back during the daylight hours. On the way over it was night time and very difficult especially with the surface winds gusting to 80 mph. Flying up the fjord was an experience and your father was correct in stating you had to turn the corner to the right. This field was for sea planes. The runway came out of the water and ran uphill into the mountain (ice caps). There was no going around. Taking off was an experience also because you ran downhill and made a sharp bank around the corner to the left. Thanks for sharing the other items again. Best regards ..Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 17:55:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:55:55 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <006701c0dbcd$93f41740$d3937ad5@n0i6c5> If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 18:25:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings References: <65.144215c3.282f17c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AFEC38D.C32E656@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Jack Rencher's reply to you was about as articulate as you will find from anyone. He tells it perfectly anent this pilot- copilot thing. As a lead pilot I flew many missions with a Colonel or a General in the right seat who was listed as the copilot, BUT, he was the Air Commander of that particular mission and the airborne unit which he led. For example a Squadron might lead the Group and THAT Group might lead the Wing and THAT Wing might lead the Division and THAT Division might lead the entire strike force. The fellow in THAT lead plane was then the Air Commander of the entire bomber strike force. Taking a page from Lew Lyle's book ... which I did ... I flew all my leads except one in the left seat. Different times I was the Air Commander of the particular unit that I was leading be it a Group, Wing or a Division. My greatest thrill was one mission where OUR lead led the entire strike force. Lew would fly all his missions in the left seat and did the flying as well as doing the duties of Air Commander. As to "logging" pilot time, the FAA (former CAA) rules that a first pilot may log all his time at full rate, ie., hour for hour. A copilot flying in that position may log his time as HALF ... so if he flys two hours he may log ONE as pilot. When in the military a Command Pilot is aboard, HE is the command of that airplane no matter who is flying, but seldom have I ever seen a Command rated pilot USURP the "command" of the pilot in the left seat doing the flying. BUT a Command Pilot may log ALL of his time on ANY airplane on which he is flying. I once flew a B17 from Miami back to Lockbourne AFB (now Rickenbacker) and he flew in the radio compartment the entire trip, but in the log book HIS name was listed. Also he did not usurp ANY duties and I never heard him utter one word the entire flight except when we landed, he thanked us all. I earned my Command pilot wings in the ANG after the war. One requirement for such is that you have 15 years as a rated pilot. The hour requirement is, however (to my way of thinkng) TOO low. 3000 hours to sit for the check ride. TOO Low! For the record I have 33,000 pilot hours all in command, but then I was an airline captain for 35 years! And, I soloed in 1936 in January. I add this little bit to the excellent letter of Jack Rencher. Jack is a fellow I wish I had known more about when we were in the 303rd. He;\'s sort of "my kind of guy" as it were. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, All copilots are pilots. A pilot is a rating. It has nothing to > do with rank. A pilot could be a General or a Sergeant. A copilot is a > position on the crew A pilot could fly as tail gunner. and some of them did > in the lead airplane to judge the formation. It was not unusual for two > rated first pilots to fly on one crew. One could log all the first pilot > time or they could split it. Some squadrons did it one way. Some another. > Usually when a Group flew as lead Group on a mission, there might be a > General Senior Pilot flying as Pilot or copilot. Usually the other pilot was > a very experienced First pilot and maybe a Captain or Major. But he might be > listed as and flying as copilot. One had to be checked out in each type of > plane to fly as first pilot. He might not be checked out in B17s as first > pilot and have 20,000 hours as first pilot in B24s. It was not at all > unusual for a first pilot to fly as copilot. > > I personally had several hundred hours in B17s as first pilot in a > gunnery school and went overseas as a copilot. I had several hundred hours > more first pilot hours in B17s than did my first pilot. I flew about half my > missions as first pilot and half as copilot. On new crews They often left the > copilot home or on another crew and I flew with the new pilot to check him > and his crew out on their first combat mission. On such assignments I > considered myself as the absolute boss and Instructor pilot but I was listed > on the loading lists as copilot. This was so the regular pilot would get the > time as first pilot. Other Squadrons might have done it differently. > > It sounds to me like your Father had a similar job to what I did. Don't > ask me why I went over as a copilot. It is a Military Secret. I am so stupid > I can bounce a B17 equally well from either seat. I often got 4 to 6 bounces > from each landing. Or you might say 4 to 6 landings from each approach. It > didn't matter if the Throttles were in my left hand or my right. I should > have left the gear up. They don't bounce to well on their belly. If someone > else answers you, believe them not me. It won't hurt my feelings. I was a > first pilot in B24s too.(Not in the War) They are harder to bounce > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 19:13:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:13:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Contact Message-ID: <001201c0dbd8$62dacfe0$c99a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone been contacted by Yves Vercoutter of Ligny, France? I know not how he got my address but he sent a nice letter thanking us = for what we did. He has asked me to send him other names so he can tell them how happy he = is,etc. BUT, I am reticent to do this. Any comments?? Kuykendalls RO, Fory ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone been contacted by Yves = Vercoutter of=20 Ligny, France?
I know not how he got my address but = he sent a=20 nice letter thanking us for what we did.
He has asked me to send him other = names so he=20 can tell them how happy he is,etc.
BUT, I am reticent to do this. Any=20 comments??
 
Kuykendalls RO, = Fory
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0DBAE.78F839E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 13 23:10:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:10:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings In-Reply-To: <3AFEC38D.C32E656@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Jack Rencher's reply to you was about as articulate as you will find from > anyone. He tells it perfectly anent this pilot- copilot thing. As a lead pilot > I flew many missions with a Colonel or a General in the right seat who was > listed as the copilot, ........ Thanks (and to J.Rencher) for the reply. I'm still a bit confused by the last column in the loading lists, but your reply helped explain a lot. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 03:25:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:25:18 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Moofy, thanks for your help in locating Valley, Wales. The RAF Airfield must be the spot we are looking for. I remember the base was close to the ocean as I picked up a small rock on the beach following our landing. I still have it. Regards, ... Bill Runnels > If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on > the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is > still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. > I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. > Cheers, > Moofy > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 06:04:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:04:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002401c0dc33$4da25160$ef09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Moofy, About six months ago, someone forwarded a map website, English, that had very detailed maps of England. I looked a couple of sites, such as Bassingbourn, Thorpe-Abbots, lots of London, etc., and they were fantastic. I can't find the site under my 'favorites' folder anymore. Do you have any idea what it might be, if you've seen it before? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Moofy, thanks for your help in locating Valley, Wales. > The RAF Airfield must be the spot we are looking for. I > remember the base was close to the ocean as I picked up > a small rock on the beach following our landing. I still > have it. > Regards, ... Bill Runnels > > If it is of any help, I believe you will find 'Valley' Wales, actually on > > the island of Anglesey, Wales. just off mainland Wales. In fact, there is > > still an operational RAF Airfield there, called RAF Valley. > > I will try and do a scan of Anglesey and send it to you. > > Cheers, > > Moofy > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 15:53:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:53:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514022518.BXRO29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> <002401c0dc33$4da25160$ef09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <001601c0dc85$94ab76c0$dab34d0c@o3n4f8> I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that may be helpful to all: http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Hi Moofy, > About six months ago, someone forwarded a map website, English, that had > very detailed maps of England. I looked a couple of sites, such as > Bassingbourn, Thorpe-Abbots, lots of London, etc., and they were fantastic. > I can't find the site under my 'favorites' folder anymore. Do you have any > idea what it might be, if you've seen it before? > Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 19:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:17:15 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <20010514181715.FOTA2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, you are always welcome. Thanks for the info on Valley, Wales. With this data we can pinpoint the spot. I knew it had to be somewhere. HA Thanks again, .... Bill runnels > I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that > may be helpful to all: > http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an > outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he > is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. > > > > > > > . > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 18:53:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales References: <20010514181715.FOTA2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002301c0dc9e$d1df7500$e08e4d0c@o3n4f8> Cheers, Bill. I hope Tom can help. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales > Lloyd, you are always welcome. Thanks for the info on > Valley, Wales. With this data we can pinpoint the spot. > I knew it had to be somewhere. HA > Thanks again, .... Bill runnels > > I wasn't invited, but I'll butt in as usual. The following is a site that > > may be helpful to all: > > http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm. Tom Feise is an > > outstanding gentleman and will do almost anything possible to help, and he > > is a very knowlegable researcher. Hope this helps a bit, Gordy. Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 21:32:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:32:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: thanks moofy. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 22:12:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:12:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley Message-ID: <005d01c0dcba$ad3a97e0$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> You are very welcome Bill. Your memory serves you well, RAF Valley is very near the sea, and there are some beautiful beaches on Anglesey. I think they do alot of Air, Sea Rescue from RAF Valley. Many years ago, our eldest son was 'aircraft mad', and as a special treat we took all the children to an Air Show at RAF Valley. In those days, there was just one main road that ran right through Anglesey to Holyhead, and it was chocka block with cars going to the Air Show. With five children in the back of a car all hyped up, going at a 'snails pace' on a hot Summers day, I was regretting making the journey. Of course eventually we got to the airfield. It turned out to be one of the most exciting days I had ever spent. Apart from when a Harrier Jump Jet took off, then hovered very near to where we were standing. I nearly had heart failure at the noise it made ! but I could not take my eye's off it, as it was a fascinating sight. Somewhere in the house, we have photo's of each of the children sat in the cockpit of a single engine plane wearing a helmet. How we laughed when we saw the photo of our youngest child Lynn, all we could see was the helmet !!LOL All these years later, it is 'Mum' who is mad on WW2 aircraft, and is feeling very excited that Pete and I will be going to East Anglia, and will visit Duxford Air Museum in a little over 6 weeks. Luvs and Hugs, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 22:14:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:14:43 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy Message-ID: <005e01c0dcba$e5e6a660$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> I see Lloyd has found the map website you were referring to Gordy, I agree with you, it is a very good website to visit. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 21:42:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:42:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy References: <005e01c0dcba$e5e6a660$84c47ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <002a01c0dcb6$70ccc340$97194e0c@o3n4f8> I hope this was the website referred to. Even if it is not, I reiterate; I can say nothing other than praise for Tom Feise. He is the son of a German soldier ,and was only a little boy during the war. Tom is absolutely genuine, and now lives in England, his adopted Country. If you visit the website, I encourage you to read "his story". And , no, this reference is not a plug . Ask Tom for some help , and you'll find out why I am bragging on him. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gordy > I see Lloyd has found the map website you were referring to Gordy, I agree > with you, > it is a very good website to visit. > Cheers, > Moofy > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 23:35:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:35:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley, Anglesey, Wales Message-ID: <70.aa87515.2831b7ad@aol.com> thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 14 23:41:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:41:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot and co-pilot ratings Message-ID: bill well placed comments. grats on your experiences that to be sure many passengers have been thankful. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 15 01:20:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:20:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #271 - msg.# 3/W.Heller -flyer ratings Message-ID: <13.15a5e8c6.2831d061@aol.com> --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Of my 53 missions, the one that stands out in my mind the most was the mission of 14 October, 1943. My former Ist pilot, Ist Lt. Jokerst was leading the the 360th high squadron. The 303rd bomb group was the high group. I was flying the # 2 position while Heller had the # 3 position. Ist Lt. Jokerst let me land the B-17 many times from the right seat, he was always # 1 in my book and every Thursday I wear my hat with the Black Thursday logo on it. Most see it and look at me wondering what it means as I have been asked many times. I had joined Jokerst crew as a co-pilot in Walla Walla. Bill Bergeron --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      Of my 53 missions, the one that stands out in my mind the most was the
mission of 14 October, 1943. My former Ist pilot, Ist Lt. Jokerst was leading
the the 360th high squadron. The 303rd bomb group was the high group. I was
flying the # 2 position while Heller had the # 3 position. Ist Lt. Jokerst
let me land the B-17 many times from the right seat, he was always # 1 in my
book and every Thursday I wear my hat with the Black Thursday logo on it.
Most see it and look at me wondering what it means as I have been asked many
times. I had joined Jokerst crew as a co-pilot in Walla Walla.
Bill Bergeron --part1_13.15a5e8c6.2831d061_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 15 03:25:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:25:39 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Valley Message-ID: <20010515022540.LLLG8745.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Moofy, your air show experience with family at RAF Valley sounds like a fun day. I do remember the beautiful beaches. It was this small town boy's first view of that part of the world. We had a rough crossing but the day we landed at Valley was sunny and bright. It was late January, 1945. We also landed there on the way back in June. We really appreciate your interest in aviation. Hope you and Pete have a terrific time at Duxford in June. Best regards, Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 00:13:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:13:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings Message-ID: Among my father's things were several RAF wings, some of which were pins and some patches (for example see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/rafpatch.jpg ) . I assume that he probably just collected these as mementos, and I'm not even sure that they are old. I was just looking at one of them today, a small pin similar to the pin in the image above, and I noticed that under the "RAF", it said "B W R S" , and I was just curious what that could signify. I'm sure they were probably just collector's items, with no personal significance, but I was curious about their meaning. I talked to one person who found a similar wing with a NZ (I think) which was a New Zealand, but I couldn't think of a British colony that B W R S would stand for. Any ideas? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 00:39:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:39:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson Message-ID: I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody familiar with this? I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. Thanks for you help. Jay Primavera And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. Go figure. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 01:41:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:41:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B016A44.2705.C366A5@localhost> > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently > unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. > Go figure. Thanks, Jay. We try to stay "on topic" here. If one would read the archived messages, they could write a book. Let me add my thanks to everyone for making this such a valuable and interesting forum. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:31:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:31:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: <3B016A44.2705.C366A5@localhost> Message-ID: <004501c0dda7$f535e200$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, thanks. "We" stray occassionally, but not for long. Your generosity and tolerance is appreciated and respected in those rare instances. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > > > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently > > unsubscribed to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. > > Go figure. > > Thanks, Jay. We try to stay "on topic" here. If one would read the > archived messages, they could write a book. Let me add my > thanks to everyone for making this such a valuable and interesting > forum. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:44:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:44:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: Message-ID: <006701c0dda9$c8d83d00$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> We owe a great deal to Gary for providing the venue, as much to the veterans who unselfishly contribute their memories and recollections, and a great deal to the sons and daughters, brothers and sisters and all who are dedicated to the preservation of those memories, and the protection of this magnificent History. ( There I go again. You get tthe drift tho...) Thanks. L.G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former > agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody > familiar with this? > > I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. > > Thanks for you help. > > Jay Primavera > > And thank you Gary for running a great talk forum. I recently unsubscribed > to a similar forum - not one message concerned the war. Go figure. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 02:52:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:52:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings References: Message-ID: <006f01c0ddaa$e47c3ce0$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, Those are in unbelievably good condition. They ( the ones in the photo) look like normal pilot wings, but I am scrounging a lot of memory. We were stationed at an RAF base in Northern England in the late 50's. Hope someone has a proper answer; you have my curiousity up as well. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings > > Among my father's things were several RAF wings, some of > which were pins and some patches (for example see > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/rafpatch.jpg ) . > I assume that he probably just collected these as mementos, > and I'm not even sure that they are old. > I was just looking at one of them today, a small pin similar to the > pin in the image above, and I noticed that under the "RAF", it said > "B W R S" , and I was just curious what that could signify. > I'm sure they were probably just collector's items, with no personal > significance, but I was curious about their meaning. I talked to one > person who found a similar wing with a NZ (I think) which was a > New Zealand, but I couldn't think of a British colony that B W R S > would stand for. > Any ideas? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 07:45:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:45:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson References: Message-ID: <00c101c0ddd3$c511f420$5c09f4cc@e0y0k4> If you haven't already, try contacting Helga Radau at : archiv@stadt-barth.de or helga.radau@web.de She is one of the best sources on the camps you will find. I know the camps fairly well, and have a few good sources, but I think you might want to double check the spelling of that river. If not, maybe Helga will be able to sort it out through name of the town. You can use my name if you like. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Major Henderson > I'm trying to locate a POW hospital that was located in a former > agricultural college in Obermasfeld, along the Sweera (sp?) river. Anybody > familiar with this? > > I'm also trying to locate the family of British Major, Dr W.R. Henderson. > > Thanks for you help. > > Jay Primavera From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 14:54:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:54:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo Message-ID: Hi list, I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no names with the photo. Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 15:33:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF wings In-Reply-To: <006f01c0ddaa$e47c3ce0$928f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Bill, Those are in unbelievably good condition. As I said, I'm not sure if they were obtained while at Molesworth, or if he picked them up years later, but they were in with his old medals and captains bars, etc, etc. > They ( the ones in the > photo) look like normal pilot wings, but I am scrounging a lot of memory. > We were stationed at an RAF base in Northern England in the late 50's. > Hope someone has a proper answer; you have my curiousity up as well. Just for reference, I scanned the wings in question. The image is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/rafwing3.jpg Looks big in picture, but it is only about 3/4" long. BTW, I have a link to some other patches and medals and things that were in with my father's things at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/patches2.html If I have mis-identified anything in these images, please let me know. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 15:51:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:51:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hi list, > I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, > NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell > from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no > names with the photo. Can you scan it into a JPG? If so, maybe Gary can put it on his temporary page. If not, I can put it up on my page, at least temporarily (I'm a bit careful of the disk space since I'm borrowing it). Since this subject (ie training classes) came up, I was also wondering whether anyone in this group went through Class 42-D ("D" is for April) at the Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center at Lubbock Texas (and several nearby bases in Texas and Oklahoma were apparently used). I have several pictures taken at this school, many of which have names on the back. One of the pictures, which is on my web page shows some people near a training plane, and it was dated Dec 8, 1941. Ie the day after Pearl Harbor, and has notes on it about getting those Japs, etc. I have some other pictures taken between 1942 and 1944 at Gunter Field, Ala, and Bainbridge Field in Georgia, in case anyone went to those fields for training. My father also was at Hendricks field in Sebring, Florida, but I don't think I have any pictures of that. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 16:04:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:04:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo Message-ID: Bill, That is a good idea and I can certainly give it a try. Gary, Should I sent it to this email address or a separate one? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bill Jones [SMTP:wejones@megalink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 9:52 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Class photo > Hi list, > I have a graduation photo of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, > NM. They were commissioned on Sept, 26, 1942 and called themselves, "Hell > from Heaven Men". If anyone would like a copy, let me know. There are no > names with the photo. Can you scan it into a JPG? If so, maybe Gary can put it on his temporary page. If not, I can put it up on my page, at least temporarily (I'm a bit careful of the disk space since I'm borrowing it). Since this subject (ie training classes) came up, I was also wondering whether anyone in this group went through Class 42-D ("D" is for April) at the Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center at Lubbock Texas (and several nearby bases in Texas and Oklahoma were apparently used). I have several pictures taken at this school, many of which have names on the back. One of the pictures, which is on my web page shows some people near a training plane, and it was dated Dec 8, 1941. Ie the day after Pearl Harbor, and has notes on it about getting those Japs, etc. I have some other pictures taken between 1942 and 1944 at Gunter Field, Ala, and Bainbridge Field in Georgia, in case anyone went to those fields for training. My father also was at Hendricks field in Sebring, Florida, but I don't think I have any pictures of that. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 17:35:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:35:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Class photo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0249EC.25314.982209@localhost> > Gary, > Should I sent it to this email address or a separate one? > send it to glm@xmission.com - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 19:34:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Royal family visit photo Message-ID: I just uploaded a photo of the Royal family visit to Molesworth. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/royvis.html It shows several 303rd personnel as well as the Royal family. Not sure if anyone is recognizable. Unfortunately, the airmen in the flying suits have their backs to the camera. However there are some ranking officers shown who should be recognizable to someone. I think this must be the same July 44 visit as shown in the picture on the 303rdbga site, ie http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-royalty.html since the clothing worn by the Queen and Queen to be is the same. Can anyone identify anyone? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 21:18:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:18:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures Message-ID: I previously posted the URLs of some pictures taken on the Continental Express flights. I've added a few new ones that I just uploaded, and combined them onto a single page. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp.html If anyone recognizes any of the target areas, let me know and I'll label them. I think there are still a couple other's that I've already uploaded, but I haven't gotten them onto the new page yet. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 21:26:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:26:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Royal family visit photo References: Message-ID: <3B02E262.E65CAA2B@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Col. Kermit "Bow-Ur-Neck" Stevens, the Group Commander, is the escort. Still alive at 92, Col. Stevens spent my 79th birthday with me on a two-day house-guest visit two years ago. He's doing well in Medford, OR. I speak with him occasionally on the horn. Cheers! WCH Bill Jones wrote: > I just uploaded a photo of the Royal family visit to Molesworth. > http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/royvis.html > It shows several 303rd personnel as well as the Royal family. Not > sure if anyone is recognizable. Unfortunately, the airmen in the > flying suits have their backs to the camera. However there are > some ranking officers shown who should be recognizable to > someone. > I think this must be the same July 44 visit as shown in the picture > on the 303rdbga site, ie http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-royalty.html > since the clothing worn by the Queen and Queen to be is the > same. > Can anyone identify anyone? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 22:07:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lois Brown) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:07:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c0de4c$3858d340$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> Bill, I'll bet your roll of film is entirely of Paris. If you have the pictures in order of when taken, then you have Montmartre in the second one and the Eiffel Tower in the last...and the Seine running through the entire sequence. Lois -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 4:19 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures I previously posted the URLs of some pictures taken on the Continental Express flights. I've added a few new ones that I just uploaded, and combined them onto a single page. http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp.html If anyone recognizes any of the target areas, let me know and I'll label them. I think there are still a couple other's that I've already uploaded, but I haven't gotten them onto the new page yet. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 16 22:38:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:38:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Continental Express pictures In-Reply-To: <000201c0de4c$3858d340$70cc5f18@oemcomputer.rochester.rr.com> References: Message-ID: > Bill, I'll bet your roll of film is entirely of Paris. If you have the > pictures in order of when taken, then you have Montmartre in the second one > and the Eiffel Tower in the last...and the Seine running through the entire > sequence. Thanks! I'll have to check the order on the negative spool. I didn't put them on the web page in any order unfortunately. BTW, is http://wejones.ftdata.com/cont-exp/cont-exp5.jpg in Paris too? That building looks familiar. Not a very good picture though. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 03:40:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:40:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] continental Express Message-ID: <000501c0de7a$b3a0a540$4bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Bill Jones----If I can get this!@#$%^&*()___)(*&^%$#@ scanner to work for me I'll see if I can get 3-4 to you. I took these myself with a Kodak 620. Had them enlarged to 5 X 7 and put them in my scrap book. German POWs near Bonn---Hesseldorf bridge near Koln--- Koln Cathederal --- Essen Works with a flak tower in the foreground & the Arc de Triumphe from alongside the bombadiers seat. [shows chin turret controls.7 & the round "clean off window"] Don't hold your breath. I have saved a bunch of pictures but have lost that knowledge ---- I'M THINKIN'!!!. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 03:17:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:17:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Feather Merchant Message-ID: <001f01c0de77$901f0380$67914d0c@o3n4f8> What does this term imply, "Feather Merchant" ? I remember my father using it and he always seemed to use the term derisively. I ran across the term again this evening on a WW II web site. Was a feather merchant someone who did not serve in the military during the war? Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 04:40:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:40:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton Message-ID: Gordy; Thanks for sending me to Helga. I've sent her letters and I am eagerly awaiting her reply. Hopefully she will be able to help me find Obermasfeld. I've found the town and maybe the river but nothing else. Best to all Jay From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 05:17:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:17:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton References: Message-ID: <000f01c0de88$3c4a6180$1d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Anytime, Jay. My pleasure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:40 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfeld & Gordy Alton > Gordy; > > Thanks for sending me to Helga. I've sent her letters and I am eagerly > awaiting her reply. Hopefully she will be able to help me find Obermasfeld. > I've found the town and maybe the river but nothing else. > > Best to all > > Jay > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 04:22:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 05:22:04 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please remove.... Message-ID: <3B0343DB.D90F4FC3@newsfactory.net> Gary, please remove me from the list for I´ll be out of country for a while due to business. Thank you, Uwe From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 06:36:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:36:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: fwd tape References: <9e.147cfd05.2834c022@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b101c0de93$47014c00$67914d0c@o3n4f8> Best regards, and thanks, Will. ( the tape he was to have gotten from W. Maher, jr. never showed up. He has been waiting for a long time. The other two tapes have each been to six different addresses in the same span of time. Lloyd. (perhaps it got lost in the mail. Been known to happen). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:48 AM Subject: Re: fwd tape > Message received O.K.... will forward tape tomorrow to Bill Dallas in Austin. > > Will > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 16:19:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:19:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brian McQuire re. MW tape Message-ID: <004a01c0dee4$b9f62540$04914d0c@o3n4f8> Brian, I tried to e-mail you , but I guess I didn't put the right postage on the envelope and it was returned. You expressed an interest in seeing the Molesworth Tape. If you have not been able to get it, please contact me: palidin@worldnet.att.net. Regards, Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 18:34:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:34:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RAF Pin (Bill) Message-ID: <000d01c0def7$9f7e0b20$c38d7ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Bill, I sent a copy of the RAF pin you were enquiring about to a contact gentleman who has a wonderful RAF Web Site, and this was his answer.... Cheers, Moofy The item is a sweetheart pin. Back in the 1930's the officers had these made for their mess dress kits and they became a gift of affection to special girlfriends. As WWII progressed all ranks had them made as gifts. They were usually produced by the Instrument Section which commonly had conscripted watchmakers working as "Instrument Tiffies". I'm not sure of the significance of BWRS on the particular item but it was common to find either Station Names or the initials of both parties in the enamel. Regards Ross From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 20:38:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:38:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FEATHER MERCHANT. Message-ID: <000501c0df08$f0f515a0$52bb9ace@mjpmtman> LLOYD-- A "feather merchant" is a hard working person who works no harder than lifting a feather.! Normally you would be refering to a civilian that worked on some job on base. I was stationed at Pendeleton Oregon from Aug 9 to September 4 (I think) and it was there that I first heard the expression. There was an engine overhaul "plant" [Allisons I think} with EMs working alongside "feather merchants" with the EMs drawing much less pay. One of the Sgts had a civilian as a foreman. Yes it was meant to be derogatory. MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 17 22:23:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:23:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: First off, I want to say that I think the CDROM is great. Hardly a day goes by that I haven't used it. But I just happened to notice that the artwork on the cover seems to have an error. The plane shown, ie 44-6517 PU-F should have a "3" above the "triangle C" instead of the "2" shown on the cover (ie 2 would signify 359th while 3 signifies 360th). Better than the 303rd refrigerator magnets though, which are from another bomb group. :-) Again, I really love the CDROM. It's just that I've been staring at the cover, and something just didn't look right, and I finally figured out what it was. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 02:50:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John Culpin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:50:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please remove me from your mailing list Message-ID: <002801c0df3c$dd2fc0e0$54249718@oemcomputer.cpe.charter-ne.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please remove me from your mailing list. John Culpin ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please remove me from your mailing=20 list.
 
John = Culpin
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0DF1B.555DDE20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 13:07:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:07:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: My tattered, stiffened A=2 which hangs in my office closet is reference for the "2" atop the triangle C. The jacket was one o f many I painted in the Molesworth barracks. No way to go back and check, but painted it as I saw it and umpteen years later did the CD illustration to match. Sorry about that. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 14:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:21:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My tattered, stiffened A=2 which hangs in my office closet is reference for > the "2" atop the triangle C. The jacket was one o f many I painted in the > Molesworth barracks. No way to go back and check, but painted it as I saw it > and umpteen years later did the CD illustration to match. Sorry about that. > Cheers, Bob Hand Sorry! Maybe it wasn't a mistake then, ie the mistake was mine. I didn't realize that you did the artwork, I just assumed that the CD duplication company had done it, and misread the number. I should have guessed, since I knew you flew that plane. Now I'm confused. All the pictures of 303rd planes I've seen, which were taken in the last 9 months of the war, had a "2" for the 359th, a "3" for the 360th, and a "4" for the 427th. I'm not sure about the 358th planes. I think they didn't have any number, but I'm not sure. Perhaps this wasn't always the case though. I know 6517 was your plane, so if you painted that from the original, perhaps that number had a meaning different than I had assumed. I don't have a good picture of 6517 where I can see the number clearly, so I was just assuming that it would be like the others I've seen. You would certainly know better than me. Sorry. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 18 19:21:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:21:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Error on CDROM cover :-) Message-ID: <16.d0a1026.2836c217@aol.com> My curiosity has now taken flight....somewhere in the groaning table of photos, mementos and books I have the only photo taken of 517, shot by Lt.Orenstein, taken from the rear of the aircraft of the looming rudder. Now I've GOT to locate that pic! My jacket has had new cuffs and waistband, but the lining is disintegrating and the leather really tough. It still has the large triangle "C" on the back but the white triangle center has worn away...the "C" is barely visible against the leather. But lo and behold, the "2" is still prominent, as is the 46517 and "HELL'S ANGELS". I just returned from Borders, where I picked up the May issue of FLYPAST, and it has a giant pullout of UK wartime air fields and it does show Valley, Wales (Anglesey)....even though you'll have to hunt for it. Also featured is AT-6 in flight spread and the UK warbird survey.....quite an interesting issue. ($7.95) Have a good weekend. Cheers, Bob Hand (This should end the mystery of where the heck Valley Wales is.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 03:26:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:26:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off Message-ID: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? AND, at what point, prior to reaching "hostile" air space was this unity among the various Groups achieved ? Who was responsible for formation integrity? ( ie. keeping it closed up and tight)? Was this responsibility delegated to Sq. commanders , or....? Every bit of it sounds as dangerous as H**L given the weather , visibility, and proximity of the various bases launching aircraft at the same time. The fact that there were not many more accidents during initiation is either a tribute to the training Pilots recieved, or the exceptional skill and intelligence of the Pilots involved. Perhaps, a combination of both. Thanks to anyone that cares to reply to this. GNT. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 05:12:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:12:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off Message-ID: <4b.bcf6c36.28374ca9@aol.com> some times it was really close and scattering as units tried to get to their flare signal in forming. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 04:26:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:26:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <4b.bcf6c36.28374ca9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001101c0e013$83a4f400$2d914d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks , Spec. That is part of what I am trying to grasp. If forgot to ask about flare signals. Like everything else, this topic has probably been chewed to death also. I appreciate your answer. GNT. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off > some times it was really close and scattering as units tried to get to their > flare signal in forming. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 05:45:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:45:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton Message-ID: Gordy: Thanks so much for sending me to Helga Radau! She wasn't able to help, but she forwarded my letter to Roland Geiger who was able to help me find obermasfeld and even sent some rough photos! Can't thank you enough for helping me find the pow camp my father was in. All my best. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 06:03:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:03:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question Message-ID: With Memorial Day coming up soon, I have a question. Not only did Dad fly = his 35 missions with the 303rd but he was at Hickam Field on December 7, = 1941. Are there any statistics only how many 303rd members are also Pearl = Harbor Survivors? Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 07:12:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:12:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton References: Message-ID: <005401c0e02a$9f864900$7309f4cc@e0y0k4> My pleasure. Roland has been helpful to me in the past, as well. I am glad he was able to assist you. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay and Robin Primavera" To: "303rd-talk@303rdBGA. com" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Obermasfel & Gordy Alton > Gordy: > > Thanks so much for sending me to Helga Radau! She wasn't able to help, but > she forwarded my letter to Roland Geiger who was able to help me find > obermasfeld and even sent some rough photos! Can't thank you enough for > helping me find the pow camp my father was in. > > All my best. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 09:30:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:30:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> Grant ... Though you may get varied ideas to your quest, here is one: Each plane took off in the order depicted in the briefeing. They assembled as a Squadron over a certain beacon. At a stipulated time, when all three Squadrons were assembled, into a Group, they left this beacon at a stipulated time and joined two other Groups at a stipulated time and place. This now was a Wing. This Wing thus assembled, proceeded to a point which was stipulated and a time which was stipulated, and thus joined one or more Wings to make up a Division. There was one or more Divisions in the strike force which made up the bomber column. Each Division took its splace in this column at a stiputaed time and place. As to keeping good formation, that was the job of each unit leader and also with some Squadrons it was constantly drummed into each pilot during skull sessions and practice formation flying. Good formation was the difference between a rough mission and a reasonbly safe and normal mission ... the word "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > AND, at what point, prior to reaching "hostile" air space was this unity > among the various Groups achieved ? > Who was responsible for formation integrity? ( ie. keeping it closed up and > tight)? Was this responsibility delegated to Sq. commanders , or....? > Every bit of it sounds as dangerous as H**L given the weather , visibility, > and proximity of the various bases launching aircraft at the same time. The > fact that there were not many more accidents during initiation is either a > tribute to the training Pilots recieved, or the exceptional skill and > intelligence of the Pilots involved. Perhaps, a combination of both. > Thanks to anyone that cares to reply to this. GNT. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 13:56:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where is this? Message-ID: In among the pictures I have of the Continental Express, there is a picture of an unknown location. It is a picture of what looks like an Army troop convoy, all happy, perhaps after VE-day. It looks more like what I would expect for somewhere on the continent, but I thought that perhaps it might have been somehow related to the shutdown of Molesworth? As usual, I have no idea of where or when the picture was taken. I haven't checked to see if this is on the same negative roll as the C.E. pictures. Anyway, the picture is really poor quality, somewhat out of focus and scratched, but I thought it would be of interest if it was of the Molesworth area, so I was curious whether anyone recognized the scene or area? The picture is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/convoy.jpg ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 14:11:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:11:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher In your reply you stated that the formation depicted in that picture looked pretty loose. I contacted Mr. Mort Robinson at the 94thBGA Associates and he stated that the Group shown in that photo might have been in the process of forming up over the English coastline which would explain the loose formation. It occurred to me that this whole affair must have been a planning and logistics nightmare. You answer is a big help for me in acheiving some insight in respect to how these massive deployments were coordinated to work. Best regards,sir, Lloyd Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:30 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off.. the word > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 17:11:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off In-Reply-To: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? Since you already got a couple good responses, I thought I'd drift a little away from the topic of your question. You talk above, about them sending more than one group. This is something that really impressed me in my reading through the old records, ie how very different it must have been early in the war vs later in the war with respect to the sheer numbers of planes involved. I know we have a couple people in the group here who flew in both phases, so they would be best to describe this, but I was reading about a couple of the very early missions, ie spring 43, and it seemed like back then, they might only send 3 bomb groups to a target, and maybe another group or two as a diversion. Ie if I am calculating right, 3 bomb groups might only be something like 60 planes going to the target. I am somewhat unclear about what constituted the 8th AF back in the early part of the war, but it is my impression that the "divisions" were roughly equivalent to the "wings" later in the war, and that the transition between the two organizations involved something called "provisional combat wings". Later in the war, as the groups grew in size and in numbers, even the combat wings put up more planes than the entire early divisions. When I was at NARA last year, I copied the list of groups that the 1st Division sent out on one typical mission late in the war, ie: 1A 381 1B 91 41A 303 41B 379 41C 384 41D 379,384,398 Composite 94A 457 94B 401 94C 351 40A 305 40B 306 40C 92 The time spacing between groups was 1 minute, and the odd numbered groups went to an altitude of 24,500' and the even numbered groups went to 26,000'. Ie the above represents 12 groups, each of which had 3 squadron formations of approximately 13 planes, ie 12x39= 468 planes, all going to the same target. Ie almost an order of magnitude greater in numbers than in the early phases of the war. And that was just 1 division. I think that I read a passage in Mr Gobrechts book about them sending out over 2000 planes once in Dec 44. Back to the original question though, it would seem to me that it would be much more complicated co-ordinating a stream of 500 planes than a cluster of 60 planes, so I would think that there would be different answers for early in the war vs late in the war. Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied fighters? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 17:21:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:21:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: Message-ID: <003301c0e07f$c57f5a20$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Jones. Thanks for adding another dimension to my question. The points that you bring up are similar in scope to what I have been pondering. No doubt there are some exellent books on the subject, yet it is always of great interest to read the personal perspectives of the men here who flew the actual missions. Another thought that has occurred to me is the effectiveness of a tight formation vs. the liabilities (ie. mid-air collisions). I have read several accounts of bombers that were badly hit colliding with other planes in the formation, thus causing multiple downings, or, planes in a lower echelon being hit , or near-missed from bombs released by planes at a higher altiude in the formation. I would think that pilots were pretty well "wrung out" after six to nine hours of this type of flying, then add to that the responsibilties that were adjunct to flying the aircraft. I wonder where these questions will lead us. Regards, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-offhow did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > >... Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes > that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that > would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also > what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would > defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think > that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but > when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would > seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to > pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have > time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what > extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak > defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers > involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied > fighters? > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 20:25:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:25:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B06C8A6.BA6EF3B8@attglobal.net> Grant ... Anent your reply on the formation shown in the picture .... if THAT formation was "forming" up over the Channel, then THAT formation was not very well led, nor, instructed. You were in good formation from the time you left your first assembly point If, that is, you were a good outfit. My reply to you had nothing to do with that picture you mentioned. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this > question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher > In your reply you stated that the formation depicted in that picture looked > pretty loose. I contacted Mr. Mort Robinson at the 94thBGA Associates and > he stated that the Group shown in that photo might have been in the process > of forming up over the English coastline which would explain the loose > formation. It occurred to me that this whole affair must have been a > planning and logistics nightmare. You answer is a big help for me in > acheiving some insight in respect to how these massive deployments were > coordinated to work. Best regards,sir, Lloyd Grant > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:30 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off.. the word > > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > > > Cheers! > > > > Bill Heller > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 20:29:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:29:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: Message-ID: <3B06C9AE.43699F6B@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... During the war the title of Wing vs. Division may have changed from time to time. However, THREE Squadrons made up an airborne Group and THREE Groups made up an airborne Wing, and ONE or more Wings made up a Division. This remained up to the end of the war when we finally defeated Germany. I can only speak for a period from mid 1943 until the END of the war, for that was when I was there. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > IF I understand this correctly, on a mission each group would commit three > > squadrons, and the fourth sq. would "stand down". > > So, once airborne and at the assigned altitude what was the procedure that > > enabled the "Group" to form up prior to departure for the target? If more > > than one Group was involved in the mission ( which seems often to have been > > the case), how did the participating groups coordinate their formations? > > Since you already got a couple good responses, I thought I'd drift > a little away from the topic of your question. You talk above, about > them sending more than one group. This is something that really > impressed me in my reading through the old records, ie how very > different it must have been early in the war vs later in the war with > respect to the sheer numbers of planes involved. I know we have a > couple people in the group here who flew in both phases, so they > would be best to describe this, but I was reading about a couple of > the very early missions, ie spring 43, and it seemed like back then, > they might only send 3 bomb groups to a target, and maybe > another group or two as a diversion. Ie if I am calculating right, 3 > bomb groups might only be something like 60 planes going to the > target. > I am somewhat unclear about what constituted the 8th AF back > in the early part of the war, but it is my impression that the > "divisions" were roughly equivalent to the "wings" later in the war, > and that the transition between the two organizations involved > something called "provisional combat wings". > Later in the war, as the groups grew in size and in numbers, > even the combat wings put up more planes than the entire early > divisions. When I was at NARA last year, I copied the list of > groups that the 1st Division sent out on one typical mission late in > the war, ie: > > 1A 381 > 1B 91 > 41A 303 > 41B 379 > 41C 384 > 41D 379,384,398 Composite > 94A 457 > 94B 401 > 94C 351 > 40A 305 > 40B 306 > 40C 92 > > The time spacing between groups was 1 minute, and the odd > numbered groups went to an altitude of 24,500' and the even > numbered groups went to 26,000'. > Ie the above represents 12 groups, each of which had 3 squadron > formations of approximately 13 planes, ie 12x39= 468 planes, all > going to the same target. Ie almost an order of magnitude greater > in numbers than in the early phases of the war. And that was just > 1 division. I think that I read a passage in Mr Gobrechts book > about them sending out over 2000 planes once in Dec 44. > > Back to the original question though, it would seem to me that it > would be much more complicated co-ordinating a stream of 500 > planes than a cluster of 60 planes, so I would think that there > would be different answers for early in the war vs late in the war. > > Anyway, I was pretty impressed with the sheer number of planes > that were sent out late in the war, and the difficulties that that > would have presented with respect to timing the mission, and also > what that would have meant with respect to how the enemy would > defend against the attack. Ie for a 60 plane mission, I would think > that fighters would be a more effective defense than AA flak, but > when there are 500+ planes coming at a target, AA flak would > seem to be more effective, since the fighters would only be able to > pick selected squadrons to attack, and the AA gunners would have > time to get very accurate with the flak. Ie, I wonder about to what > extent the German's switching emphasis from fighters to flak > defenses might have had to do with the sheer numbers of bombers > involved, in addition to the presence of the long range allied > fighters? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 22:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:54:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off In-Reply-To: <3B06C9AE.43699F6B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > During the war the title of Wing vs. Division may have changed from time to > time. However, THREE Squadrons made up an airborne Group and THREE Groups made > up an airborne Wing, and ONE or more Wings made up a Division. This remained up > to the end of the war when we finally defeated Germany. I can only speak for a > period from mid 1943 until the END of the war, for that was when I was there. Thanks. I was wrong in my comment about early divisions and wings. I think what I was referring to was from reading in Mr Gobrechts book, it looked like back in Dec 42, the 303rd apparently was one of 4 BGs in the 1st Bomb Wing, and it looks like there were only 2 or 3 bomb wings in the 8th BC at that time, and it didn't seem like there were divisions then, ie if I understand what I was reading,: 8th Bomb Command ^ 1st BW 2nd BW ? ^ ^ 91st 306th 303rd 305th ? Then it looks like in the spring of 43, the same groups slightly re- organized into provisional combat wings, ie 8th Bomb Command ^ 1st BW 2nd BW ^ 101stPBW 102nd PBW ^ ^ 91st 306th 303rd 305th Then, later, it seems like each provisional combat wings must have split up into 2 CBWs, so that it eventually looked something like: 8th Air Force ^ 1st B.Division 2nd B.Division 3rd B.Division ^ 1st CBW 40th CBW 41st CBW 94th CBW ^ ^ ^ ^ 91, 381,398 305,306,92 303rd, 379th, 384th 351,401,457 (I'm sure I have clobbered the names of these various organizations, please correct me.) Ie, the organization kept growing and growing, but it looked to me like the original 1st BW must have evolved into the 1st Bomb Division, and the provisional bomb wings must have evolved into the 4 CBWs? Or, perhaps they sort of inserted a couple levels of organization in there, but originally, the organization that reported to the 8th BC was the wing, but later, it was the division, and the CBWs that reported to the divisions were bigger than the original wings that reported to the 8th BC. If the above looks confused, it is because I am confused. It just looked to me like the provisional combat wings were a temporary way of transitioning between the old organization and the new organization, but I have no idea of whether this was actually the case, and have no idea of whether the new organizations were made out of the old organizations, and grew from the bottom, or if new management was inserted between the old organizations and grew from the middle so to speak. But the main thing I was commenting on was the difference in size between the 8thAF at the end of 1942 vs spring of 1945. It just kept growing and growing. Anyway, this is all very interesting, and I'm learning more each day. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 19 23:15:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:15:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day Message-ID: I've had a good day. I just received a very nice letter from William Crawford, the pilot with whom my father flew on his first checkout mission. He sent me a copy of an account he had written up about the mission. It was very interesting to me because I had known that my father had been hit by a piece of flak, but knew nothing about the circumstances. The account I received today told the whole story about how he was hit, and how the engineer patched him up with the first aid kit, etc. Apparently it was only a minor injury, but it was really quite special to read about it. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 01:11:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:11:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After take-off References: <000901c0e00b$2c335e80$c98e4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B062F28.1170C0C@attglobal.net> <000701c0e065$499fc4e0$231b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B06C8A6.BA6EF3B8@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701c0e0c1$73177140$d5b34d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. First, I suspected that the formation in the picture was not "forming up" ( if so why would they have been flying inland?). Second, I know your reply had nothing to do with the picture. The information in your reply to my original question, was ( as usual) direct, incisive, informative, and helpful to my understanding. I think Mr. Jones , and others will agree. Thank you, Bill Heller. You are always there when we need to understand ; and whenever you comment, we are never left wanting. Regards, sir. Lloyd Grant. Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After take-off > Grant ... > > Anent your reply on the formation shown in the picture .... if THAT formation > was "forming" up over the Channel, then THAT formation was not very well led, > nor, instructed. You were in good formation from the time you left your first > assembly point If, that is, you were a good outfit. > > My reply to you had nothing to do with that picture you mentioned. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Thank you for your response, Mr. Heller. Part of the inspiration for this > > question is related to the photo I sent you and Jack Rencher > > > "safe" may be a bit strong for in war, there is nothing "safe' ... > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 04:12:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:12:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp Message-ID: <3B06D39A.4794.1AE773F@localhost> { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}Part of our planned POW page will be the Wartime Log= of Lt. Harold W. "Hal" Gunn. I just finished transcribing Hal's play-by-play of the POWs liberation from Moosburg. I thought you would find it interesting - you can almost feel it.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------- Account of the Liberation of the POW Camp at Moosburg, Germany by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, POW #1613. Transcribed from his Wartime Log by Gary L. Moncur: --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------- Sunday - April 29, 1945 10:04 The time we have been waiting so long for has finally come. I am trying to record the events while sitting in rather cramped quarters in our barracks kitchen, the only place with brick walls. Bullets are flying, the chatter of machine gun fire and spasmodic rifle reports, punctuated by the heavy explosions of large guns makes a fitting background for our long anticipated liberation. The =93Goons=94 are making a last stand at our gates. Rumors are flying as thick as the bullets. Two men have been victims of stray bullets. The whole camp has been taken in by the rumors. Inadequate causes and long stored up feelings makes the moment a dramatic one. Low flying Mustangs and Thunderbolts have been doing their bit to make it a =93good show.=94 Tanks have been sighted on the hill close by and are believed to be ours. Many =93Kriegies=94 are eating what we hope to be our last =93Kriegie=94 meal behind barbed wires. A heavy explosion just brought down a spray of plaster from the ceiling and walls. Air Force officers are receiving a lasting impression of a ground battle and feeling very much out of place. I am now crouched in the abort where many Kriegies have taken shelter. The steady hum of excited conversation reflects the pitch of the moment. We are all nervous, but our morale is very high. There is no sign of panic. Smiles are worn by all, and in spite of the apparent danger, we all agree that it is a =93good show.=94 A direct hit in Moosburg, the nearest town, sent up a cloud of smoke. The heavy traffic from barracks to abort shows that nature will have her way, even under these conditions. Even Kriegie burners are going full blast. Food is still an important item. We are all determined to eat. A Kriegie has tasted hunger and does not find it to his liking. I am now standing in the sunshine at the corner of our block. Many are now outside watching the show. Our camp guards have made us go to the shit trenches . Too many have been injured. Those in the tents are very vulnerable to flying bullets. The =93Goons=94 are firing from a visible church steeple in Moosburg, a good reason for damaged cathedrals that we read so much about in German propaganda. We Kriegies have been under the German heel too long to be fooled by their propaganda and feel much sympathy for them at this time. Most of the fire has been moved south into the town, but this shit trench is still a comfortable place to be. We jump up occasionally for a quick look, then back into the trench when close fire increases. Until additional excitement arises, I will close this erratic account and enjoy the show. Capt. Daniels was hit in the stomach by a 30 caliber bullet. His injury was slight thanks to an iron bar on the dispensary window. The American flag went up over Moosburg at 12:15 and our camp hoisted the same at 13:05 =96 a truly wonderful sight !! At 1:45 2 jeeps and a tank rolled into camp, barely recognizable because of the men clustered upon them. They received a deafening ovation. This account was begun by P.O.W. 1613, but is being finished by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, U.S.A.A.F - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 03:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:56:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp References: <3B06D39A.4794.1AE773F@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c0e0d8$6cdc2b60$b1904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for sharing that, Gary. Jeeez !.... Jeeez! GNT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: ; "ed miller" ; Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:12 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Liberation of Moosburg POW camp { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}Part of our planned POW page will be the Wartime Log of Lt. Harold W. "Hal" Gunn. I just finished transcribing Hal's play-by-play of the POWs liberation from Moosburg. I thought you would find it interesting - you can almost feel it.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- Account of the Liberation of the POW Camp at Moosburg, Germany by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, POW #1613. Transcribed from his Wartime Log by Gary L. Moncur: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Sunday - April 29, 1945 10:04 The time we have been waiting so long for has finally come. I am trying to record the events while sitting in rather cramped quarters in our barracks kitchen, the only place with brick walls. Bullets are flying, the chatter of machine gun fire and spasmodic rifle reports, punctuated by the heavy explosions of large guns makes a fitting background for our long anticipated liberation. The "Goons" are making a last stand at our gates. Rumors are flying as thick as the bullets. Two men have been victims of stray bullets. The whole camp has been taken in by the rumors. Inadequate causes and long stored up feelings makes the moment a dramatic one. Low flying Mustangs and Thunderbolts have been doing their bit to make it a "good show." Tanks have been sighted on the hill close by and are believed to be ours. Many "Kriegies" are eating what we hope to be our last "Kriegie" meal behind barbed wires. A heavy explosion just brought down a spray of plaster from the ceiling and walls. Air Force officers are receiving a lasting impression of a ground battle and feeling very much out of place. I am now crouched in the abort where many Kriegies have taken shelter. The steady hum of excited conversation reflects the pitch of the moment. We are all nervous, but our morale is very high. There is no sign of panic. Smiles are worn by all, and in spite of the apparent danger, we all agree that it is a "good show." A direct hit in Moosburg, the nearest town, sent up a cloud of smoke. The heavy traffic from barracks to abort shows that nature will have her way, even under these conditions. Even Kriegie burners are going full blast. Food is still an important item. We are all determined to eat. A Kriegie has tasted hunger and does not find it to his liking. I am now standing in the sunshine at the corner of our block. Many are now outside watching the show. Our camp guards have made us go to the shit trenches . Too many have been injured. Those in the tents are very vulnerable to flying bullets. The "Goons" are firing from a visible church steeple in Moosburg, a good reason for damaged cathedrals that we read so much about in German propaganda. We Kriegies have been under the German heel too long to be fooled by their propaganda and feel much sympathy for them at this time. Most of the fire has been moved south into the town, but this shit trench is still a comfortable place to be. We jump up occasionally for a quick look, then back into the trench when close fire increases. Until additional excitement arises, I will close this erratic account and enjoy the show. Capt. Daniels was hit in the stomach by a 30 caliber bullet. His injury was slight thanks to an iron bar on the dispensary window. The American flag went up over Moosburg at 12:15 and our camp hoisted the same at 13:05 - a truly wonderful sight !! At 1:45 2 jeeps and a tank rolled into camp, barely recognizable because of the men clustered upon them. They received a deafening ovation. This account was begun by P.O.W. 1613, but is being finished by Lt. Harold W. Gunn, U.S.A.A.F - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 04:50:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:50:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day References: Message-ID: <000401c0e0ed$1421bc00$2409f4cc@e0y0k4> Doesn't get much better than that, does it Bill? I remember some of the times I made a big leap in info in my father's searches. Congrats to you. Also, nice post on the group and division formations, as they progressed. We had that discussion a while ago, if you remember. Nice to see you're still hard at it, and it looks like you're nailing it down pretty good. Best to you. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day > I've had a good day. I just received a very nice letter from > William Crawford, the pilot with whom my father flew on his first > checkout mission. He sent me a copy of an account he had > written up about the mission. > It was very interesting to me because I had known that my father > had been hit by a piece of flak, but knew nothing about the > circumstances. The account I received today told the whole story > about how he was hit, and how the engineer patched him up with > the first aid kit, etc. Apparently it was only a minor injury, but it > was really quite special to read about it. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 13:46:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Good day In-Reply-To: <000401c0e0ed$1421bc00$2409f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: > Doesn't get much better than that, does it Bill? > I remember some of the times I made a big leap in info in my father's > searches. Congrats to you. Thanks. Yes, just when you think you aren't going to find anything new, something else pops up. It's happened a few times, a couple times thanks to people in this list. > Also, nice post on the group and division formations, as they > progressed. We had that discussion a while ago, if you remember. Nice to see > you're still hard at it, and it looks like you're nailing it down pretty > good. I remember the discussion, but I think much of it went over my head at that time. The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know. I just went back to re-read the messages, and I see now that there was information there that helps explain the current topic better. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 20 16:15:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 00:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:07:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B084E2E.6B92A784@attglobal.net> Grant ... Once back over friendly territory you asked if the formation was "relaxed" in the interest of "safety" .... This query infers that close formation was dangerous. Not so! Flying close formation took good pilot control and reflex but it did not compromise safety. When in combat, close formation greatly diminished the chance of the Luftwaffe attackng your particular formation. With my ten years as Captain in the post-war Lufthansa Airlines, I worked with and became very close friends with many of those fellows who flew against us. Every one to whom I mentioned close formation retorted that they frequently flew along our bomber column and WAITED for a straggling or loose formation. ALSO, many times they would view a close formation and just fly right past. I had a personal experience in this when leading a Wing once. Ahead of us was a Wing getting the bloody daylights beat out of it ... and all I could think of, was, "Gee we'll soon be up there and that's what we'll get!" (that was a dumb thought for we were all flying in a block of air and there was no such thing as 'soon we'll be up there' so to speak). And such was true, for the Luftwaffe bunch that was working over the Wing ahead of us, never even bothered to come near us! Having said all of the above, I believe there is among some of you of a later generation that somehow flying close formation was 'dangerous" ... not so. Do not forget, once you were posted to B17s, MOST of your training was flying formation ... and most of our fellows were very good at it. When we got over friendly territory ???? as you asked .... naturally we eased up a bit while ... at the same time ... reveling in the fact that we GOT ANOTHER MISSION UNDER OUR BELT! But, do not forget. We had to arrive back at our Base close enough not to bother the formation which was also coming back to their Base which may be only 3 or 4 miles from ours. And the Group landing was done out of a group formation to avail us of the speed necessary to get all on the ground SOONEST due to no one having much FUEL! We did this coming over the field in full formation with the lead element positioning in echelon which then landed in tight circling approaches. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would > formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 00:49:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:49:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] France awards American WW ll vets Message-ID: <4b.be7430c.2839b1ed@gateway.net> FYI ... from a small town newspaper ... Venice, FL This article appeared in the "Venice Gondolier Sun" on Sat. May 19th. For anyone that may be interested, this is a condensed version: Fifty-seven years after American troops landed on the shores of Normandy during World War II, the French government is expressing their gratitude to all who served in French territory, waters and air space between June 6, 1944 and May 8, 1945. In 1995, France awarded medals to those who participated in the D-Day invasion at Omaha Beach near Normandy. For eligible veterans, an application for this award may be obtained by visiting: www.info-france-usa.org/fhot2.htm I just thought that I would pass the info. along in case someone would be interested and want to follow up on it. Have a good day, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 01:33:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:33:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <005101c0e13f$c589b720$bdb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3B084E2E.6B92A784@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002901c0e18d$b96f6ea0$a4b34d0c@o3n4f8> As usual, Bill Heller. If this doesn't explain it, nothing will. A very big help, sir. Thank you kindly. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > Grant ... > > Once back over friendly territory you asked if the formation was > "relaxed" in the interest of "safety" .... This query infers that close > formation was dangerous. Not so! Flying close formation took good pilot > control and reflex but it did not compromise safety. When in combat, > close formation greatly diminished the chance of the Luftwaffe attackng > your particular formation. With my ten years as Captain in the post-war > Lufthansa Airlines, I worked with and became very close friends with > many of those fellows who flew against us. Every one to whom I mentioned > close formation retorted that they frequently flew along our bomber > column and WAITED for a straggling or loose formation. ALSO, many times > they would view a close formation and just fly right past. > I had a personal experience in this when leading a Wing once. Ahead of > us was a Wing getting the bloody daylights beat out of it ... and all I > could think of, was, "Gee we'll soon be up there and that's what we'll > get!" (that was a dumb thought for we were all flying in a block of air > and there was no such thing as 'soon we'll be up there' so to speak). > And such was true, for the Luftwaffe bunch that was working over the > Wing ahead of us, never even bothered to come near us! > > Having said all of the above, I believe there is among some of you of a > later generation that somehow flying close formation was 'dangerous" > ... not so. Do not forget, once you were posted to B17s, MOST of your > training was flying formation ... and most of our fellows were very good > at it. > > When we got over friendly territory ???? as you asked .... naturally we > eased up a bit while ... at the same time ... reveling in the fact that > we GOT ANOTHER MISSION UNDER OUR BELT! But, do not forget. We had to > arrive back at our Base close enough not to bother the formation which > was also coming back to their Base which may be only 3 or 4 miles from > ours. And the Group landing was done out of a group formation to avail > us of the speed necessary to get all on the ground SOONEST due to no one > having much FUEL! > We did this coming over the field in full formation with the lead > element positioning in echelon which then landed in tight circling > approaches. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Once back in the vicinity, or , over friendly territory could/ would > > formation discipline be relaxed in the interests of safety? > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 06:06:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:06:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or lazy but not the 303rd. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 07:34:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:34:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B08B6DD.A3842535@attglobal.net> Well said, Jack! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into > each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 06:20:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:20:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0e1b5$d3da4080$c8194e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, I appreciate your comments. You and Bill Heller have answered my question pretty throughly. I am not as ignorant as I was a few days ago. Bill Jones discussed this privately , and some of the photos and records his father had also helped put the picture in perspective. From what I have read, some outfits didn't maintain the same discipline as the 303rd, and paid the price. Thanks to everyone that replied to this question. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > Lloyd, Flying good close formation is not dangerous. We did not fly into > each other flying formation very often. Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 13:44:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base In-Reply-To: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: > Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. Sorry, forgot to ask one thing. What about if one plane got hit by flak and turned sharply due to loss of a control surface or engine? Ie it seems like in that situation flying tight formation would make it harder for the other planes to get out of the way. I read on account of a 303rd squadron having just formed up, and getting ready to head out on a mission only to have another group from another CBW come right toward them in the wrong direction around the buncher (I guess they were going around another buncher, but got too far out or something). The account said that the squadron had to scatter to avoid a collission. In a situation like that, is there any prescribed way to get out of the formation fast, or was it just every man for himself? I was going to say that being loose might make it easier to avoid collission in a situation like this, but on thinking, perhaps staying tight would present a smaller target to avoid? Actually, the account of the above example didn't use the word scattered as I did, the account said that the squadron was "cut from the formation", so maybe it didn't have to scatter? Anyway, the responses have discussed how flying formation is safer if everything goes right, but I'm just curious about how you get out of a tight formation quickly when things go wrong. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 13:44:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base In-Reply-To: <8d.6c91a54.2839fc38@aol.com> Message-ID: > Most mid air collisions are between > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. We did not > spread out for safety's sake. Some Squadrons might have from being tired or > lazy but not the 303rd. > Jack >From looking at the pictures of both 303rd formations and other formation, I'm having a hard time understanding what constitutes a close formation. Ie it seems like in the later squadron formations, that the individual "flights", ie groups of 3 planes would be tight, but the spacing between each flight would look "loose" to me. But I don't really know what I'm looking for. Was it more important to keep the groups of 3 tight rather than the whole squadron? Somewhere, perhaps it was on the movie "Target for Today", I think I saw some explanation of just how the planes in the older "box" formation were supposed to line up, ie something like the pilot of plane x would move up even with the tail of plane y, or something like that, but I've never seen it written down, and I have never seen any description of it at all for the later squadron formation. There is a chapter on "formation flying" in one of the B-17 pilot training manuals that I have, but it looks like something unlike either of the two formations used in the war, so I think it must have been written by Boeing rather than the 8thAF. Can someone describe what mental processes flight leaders used to line up on the squadron lead flight, and what the wing planes did to line up on the flight leaders? If possible, for both the older "Box" and the later "Squadron" formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 18:23:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:23:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: Message-ID: <3B094F0E.766F75EF@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Close formation was much more safe than the few incidents caused by errant flying although what you say does have its down side. The attitude that perhaps "strung out" formations are more safe as to anyone hitting someone else ... on the other hand, as I know from both experience and having been told ny Luftwaffe pilot friends of mine, CLOSE formation was a HUGE DETERRENT to attack. Yes, we did have collisions, but mostly NOT due to any close formation. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Most mid air collisions are between > > airplanes not flying formation with each other and usually caused by two > > pilots with their heads up their bottom end or two planes milling around in > > very bad visibility and just not seeing each other. in time. > > Sorry, forgot to ask one thing. What about if one plane got hit by > flak and turned sharply due to loss of a control surface or engine? > Ie it seems like in that situation flying tight formation would make it > harder for the other planes to get out of the way. > I read on account of a 303rd squadron having just formed up, > and getting ready to head out on a mission only to have another > group from another CBW come right toward them in the wrong > direction around the buncher (I guess they were going around > another buncher, but got too far out or something). The account > said that the squadron had to scatter to avoid a collission. In a > situation like that, is there any prescribed way to get out of the > formation fast, or was it just every man for himself? I was going to > say that being loose might make it easier to avoid collission in a > situation like this, but on thinking, perhaps staying tight would > present a smaller target to avoid? Actually, the account of the > above example didn't use the word scattered as I did, the account > said that the squadron was "cut from the formation", so maybe it > didn't have to scatter? > Anyway, the responses have discussed how flying formation is > safer if everything goes right, but I'm just curious about how you get > out of a tight formation quickly when things go wrong. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 18:16:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:16:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: <001301c0e219$b9521d00$db8f4d0c@o3n4f8> So, essentially; the advantages of keeping a tight formation over enemy territory far out weighed the the potential for mid-air accidents ( given the training and skill level of the pilots in any particular group was kept at its peak). The massed firepower of a closed up formation was a strong deterent to attacking fighters. On returning to base, a relatively tight formation abettted the landing sequence ( which was closely spaced due to fuel depletion). I hope I have gotten this correctly, because I have another, hopefully relevant, question to ask. ( and I am sincerely grateful for everyones indulgence and patience with this subject). Question: Was any preferance given, or , possible, during the landing sequence to badly damaged aircraft, or aircraft with casualties aboard? If so, in what order? ( I am considering that a damaged plane that crashed on landing could tie up the runway and create a major problem for other planes in the pattern.) Question: How much time was generally allotted to recovering aircraft ie. landing the Group? ***The explinations you guys are giving is far superior to anything I have been able to find in a book. *** and very much appreciated. Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 19:55:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:55:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: Hi Lloyd: Aircraft with wounded aboard or an a/c having mechanical difficulties would fire off flares while in the landing pattern that gave them priority landing above all others. Red flares marked ships with wounded on board. Planes that were damaged were diverted to secondary runways or to the grass depending on their degree of damage. FYI: 100 B-17s in formation could fire one ton of lead per minutes from their .50s! Imagine attacking knowing that information! Oskar Bosch, IV.(Sturm)/JG 3, said attacking a group of tightly packed B-17s was like trying to make love to a porcupine on fire! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:16:05 -0400 > >So, essentially; > the advantages of >keeping a tight formation over enemy territory far out weighed the the >potential for mid-air accidents ( given the training and skill level of the >pilots in any particular group was kept at its peak). The massed firepower >of a closed up formation was a strong deterent to attacking fighters. >On returning to base, a relatively tight formation abettted the landing >sequence ( which was closely spaced due to fuel depletion). >I hope I have gotten this correctly, because I have another, hopefully >relevant, question to ask. ( and I am sincerely grateful for everyones >indulgence and patience with this subject). >Question: Was any preferance given, or , possible, during the landing >sequence to badly damaged aircraft, or aircraft with casualties aboard? If >so, in what order? >( I am considering that a damaged plane that crashed on landing could tie >up >the runway and create a major problem for other planes in the pattern.) >Question: How much time was generally allotted to recovering aircraft ie. >landing the Group? > >***The explinations you guys are giving is far superior to anything I have >been able to find in a book. *** and very much appreciated. > Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 21:51:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:51:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bombardier class 42-13 picture and names Message-ID: List, Last week I informed you that I had a picture of bombardier class 42-13 taken in Albuquerque, NM, but that I had no names. I have now found the names and they are below in alphabetical order. Unfortunately, the listing does not correspond to the faces. Gary Moncur, web master, has posted the photo at this location: http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/bombardier42-13.jpg It is admittedly a bad version that I sent him as my scanner is acting up. I will rescan and provide a better version as soon I am able. If you or someone you know is on the picture can you please inform me. Crazy as it sounds I'd like to track all of them down. Any assistance you can provide will be gratefully appreciated. BTW, my uncle is in the back row, 9th from the right, with the telephone pole behind him. Dave Tooley Here is the list of names: Joseph Bernard Adams David Robert Akers John Andruszkiewiez Edward Rodney Armstrong William West Barney Charles Marvin Box Ernest Iseral Brewster John Allen Brown, Jr. John Roland Brown Edwin Moscoe Bruton John Bugra John Howard Burns Norris Kenneth Calkins Robert Carl Axel Carlson Thomas Edward Casey Herbert Harvey Chalsky Francis Carrolton Chaney, II Joseph Ralph Chaswick Dean Palmer Chisnell Nelson Edward Church Edmond Joseph Clemenzi Frank Cecil Coon William Louis Corson Don William Cox Edward Jackson Cunningham George Chancellor Cunningham Howard Joseph Dean Robert Eugene Dibble Raymond Evertson Diltz John Richard Duggins James Eldon Dunaway Salvatore Ernest Echo Paul Robert Englert Leo Kenneth English Norman Richard Esh George Francis Faour Robert Louis Faulhaber Michael Francis Feeney, Jr. Wayne Robert - Fitzgerald Sanford Lester Forde Robert Frederick Francis George John Friesner Andy Keet Garrett Robert Garson George Ghetia James Gibbons, Jr. Raymond Wilson Grace Cecil Hillard Hall Kimball Dee Hall Albert Herman Halpern Lloyd Scott Hansen Jack Beaumont Hanson Leland Thomas Harrington Hugh Rndolph Harrison Joseph Anthony Harroun Albert Nolan Hasson Leslie Armin Heidelberger Joseph Alden Helbert Frederick Eugene Helmick Raymond DeWitt Hill, Jr. Paul Herman Horovitz Charley Frank Hughes Robert Orlan Jarrett Walter Perry Johnson William Herbert Jones Ernest Emanuel Kafer George Henry Kahmann.. Rudolph William Kazich Anthony Joseph Kochznowski Stanley Lieberman Ralph Kennith Liebl, Paul Warner Lingrel Donald Bruce MacAllister Rodney Allen Manning Joseph Rudolph Marek Edward Frederick Mason, Jr. Augustus March Carl Theodore Miller, John Edward Miller Vernon Louis Miller Joe Argailus Mims Edward Murzyn John Alfred Ogden Douglas Cameron Orr Charles Henry Partlow Gordon Bruce Perkins James Henry Peterson Raymond George Petrich. Walter Charles Piasecki John William Pierik Ernest Leroy Pollard, Jr, Gene Little Powers William John Reich Henry William Schoedel John Regis Shaughnessy, Jr. Fred Charles Sickles, Jr. Kent George Smith Martin Van Stanford Michael Peters Stefanko Andreas Charles Stolen Edward Anthony Supinski John Gregory Swan Elmer Backburn Taylor Norman Joe Taylor Jay D. Titus Thomas George Trainor Frank Timothy Urban Virgil Francis Vink Nicholas Paul Wagner Jack Edmund Walker Chaplin J. Watkins Paul Eugene Webber Donald Rolland West Joseph Ward Westbrook, Jr. Parks Hubbard Williams John Stanley Woravka Lansing Jackson Yates From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:20:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:20:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #278 Formation Flying Message-ID: As Bill Heller put it, close formation was not too difficult. When you are in formation your relative speed with the plane you are flying formation with is zero or very little. As I recall we only used the outboard engines to maintain formation. It took only a very small increase in power to move up into a close position or to maintain your position. If you moved too far out of the desired formation it took more power and more fuel to reform. Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:22:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:22:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: The questions on tight formation have been answered very well so I will not add much to their answers. They were well said and accurate. I do want to add a bit, however. There were two pilots on each airplane. One was flying formation and he did not take his eyes off his lead plane If the lead moved one inch he should move one inch in exactly the same direction as his lead. If he did this how could they hit each other? The other resting pilot was an observer. He watched the flak, the instruments The sky, The other airplanes, If another airplane suddenly was going to hit us for any reason He could say I've got it and fly formation with the errant plane until it was past a point it could hit us, over, under, beside, what ever was necessary. If he missed us 5 or 6 feet that was enough. We didn't have to tear the formation up at all. Just move up or down or sideways a few feet until he was gone and then get back on our lead plane. It usually didn't take over 5 seconds or so and we didn't have to go into the next county. A few feet was enough. The one problem with close formation was if your neighbor got a direct hit and exploded the blast might get you too.. This risk was well worth taking as the German fighters would fly past us and look for a loose formation as others have told you and we got better bomb patterns on the ground and maybe didn't have to go back to that target again. Especially Merseburg. The 303rd had a lot of pride. We were known as the 303rd we won't turn for any one Bomb group by some. Once were on our Bomb Run. another Squadron were on their bomb run and it soon became obvious we were converging. But we were the 303rd and we would not turn for anyone. The other squadron was on our right and their aiming point was to the left of ours. As we got closer we saw the big Red triangles with the C therein. We knew then they were one of the other squadrons from the 303rd we won't turn for anyone Group. Our two formations flew through each other on about a 30 degree angle and both squadrons emerged with their formation intact and there was not one collision. There was a lot of dodging up and down for about 15 second. I would not believe it if I hadn't seen it. Maybe someone else was in one of these squadrons and on that mission and remembers it. The 358th was one of the Squadrons. I don't know who the other one was, but it was one of the 303rds. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 21 23:27:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:27:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: very well related bill. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 13:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:21:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base Message-ID: <68.efb0d40.283bb3e1@aol.com> If I remember correctly, close formation on return was the order of the day, with continual criticism from the buzzing A-31 Vultee Vengeance to "Keep it tight or you'll be up there until you do", amidst checking to see that the bolts hadn't been removed from the guns until after landing. Right? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 13:28:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:28:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tight formations Message-ID: <99.1528a3fb.283bb567@aol.com> Love that porcupine metaphor...all of which makes me all the more proud of our 360th pilot Marvin "Mike" Fink who got us through thick and thin with nary a tense moment....at least we didn't know about it! Cheers, Mike and all........Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 16:45:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:45:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #278 Formation Flying Message-ID: <3b.14f13191.283be3a3@aol.com> all. i see on my tv schedule for history channel for tonight at 10;p.m. is program titled WAR PLANES OF WORLD WAR II. THOUGHT SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE SAME IN YOUR AREA. SPEC From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 16:58:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:58:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to base References: <68.efb0d40.283bb3e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003401c0e2d7$ff648e40$a18f4d0c@o3n4f8> So, Bob, there was a "mother-hen" airborne to monitor the returning planes. I am thankful that you included that bit of information. Now, I have to go find a picture of an A-31 Vultee Vengence. Ps. One more stop in Arizona and the Molesworth tape is headed back to Florida. One tape got "lost in the Mail" so that has slowed the progression a bit. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Return to base > If I remember correctly, close formation on return was the order of the day, > with continual criticism from the buzzing A-31 Vultee Vengeance to "Keep it > tight or you'll be up there until you do", amidst checking to see that the > bolts hadn't been removed from the guns until after landing. Right? > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:14:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:14:51 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 19:57:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:57:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude References: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Message-ID: <000501c0e2f1$1f6544a0$bd184e0c@o3n4f8> Gary, in laymans terms, density altitude refers to the density of air molecules at a given elevation above sea level at a given temperature. The higher up, the thinner the molecules of air. Also, the higher the temperature of the air at a given altitude the less lift is afforded to the wings' airfoil. Thus, in the afternoon it takes more runway to get off the ground. Better explainations will follow, I am certain. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 20:01:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:01:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude References: <3B0A664B.9633.133FCB@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c0e2f1$ad8a6da0$bd184e0c@o3n4f8> Ps. I never got enough scratch to go for a ride in her, but a few years ago I was allowed an unrestricted tour of the plane. You are in for a real treat. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:07:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:07:24 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <20010522200725.GCQJ8745.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:24:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:24:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: You lucky Duck! I am very jealous, but at least I got a ride in Texas Raiders about ten years ago. Now about your question. In its simplest form, density altitude is: The higher the airport in MSL, the thinner the air, making the wings of airplanes less efficeint, requiring a longer takeoff roll. If your runway is not long enough, you may not have enough takeoff role to become airborne. But this is way to simplistic. Density altitude has to do with the density of air at given altitudes. Several factors go into determining density altitude, primarily the elevation of the airport above msl (mean sea level), partial vapor pressures and the adiabetic lapse rate, which is how much vapor pressure there is at various altitudes. Given all these factors, coupled with the length of the runway at the airport from which you will be flying and the performance charactieristics of your aircraft, all of these factors may prevent your trip. Every aircraft has performance charts showing the amount of runway needed at a certain brake horsepower at a certain density altitude. If your airport has a short runway, coupled with the elevation of the airport (and 4200 ft. msl is a pretty high airport), and the density altitude is relatively low, the B-17 may not have enough runway and horsepower to get you airborne. Hope this helps! Kevin Private Pilot, Airplane, Single-Engine, Land - 1975. >From: b.runnels@att.net >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude >Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:07:24 +0000 > > > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > > > Thanks, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 22:46:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:46:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0A7BC8.15828.67367A@localhost> > You lucky Duck! I am very jealous, but at least I got a ride in Texas > Raiders about ten years ago. Now about your question. I'm even luckier than you think.... my sister bought me the ticket! SLC Airport #2 is officially: Field elevation: 4608 MSL. Runway: 16-34, 5862=92 x 100=92. It's a short runway, about half of SLC international. I've seen several B-17s come in there. My brother is going with me and we're both very excited. He wants to take bombs and a parachute. I'll just take a camera. Thanks for the info - it is making sense now. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 22:02:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:02:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today images Message-ID: I had nothing better to do today, so I took the video Target for Today, and tried to capture a few 303rd related images from it. They are at http://wejones.ftdata.com/tft.html I'm sure there will be some recognizable people and planes. A lot of the combat sequences are faked, but are still using real people. I'm curious whether the formation images in group 3 are the fake formation pictures that Bill Heller told us about a couple months ago. In the video, they are sandwiched in between real combat scenes, and just look to good to have been taken in the heat of combat. I may do some more tomorrow. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 23:21:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:21:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0A83F0.27266.87101D@localhost> > > I had nothing better to do today, so I took the video Target for > Today, and tried to capture a few 303rd related images from it. Bill, That's great! I don't have the capibility to capture from the video, but I do have the video. In group 1 http://wejones.ftdata.com/tftg1.html My dad is in the bottom photo. You can see most of the side of his face, right behind the guy with the cigar. He's on the row behind the guy with the cigar, the 2nd one in. If you watch the video thru that point, you get a very clear view of him. I about had a stroke when I watched it for the first time. Maybe you can capture that spot about a second later. What is a real eye-opener for me is that my youngest son is older than dad was at that time. Dad's bombardier, David Chang, is in the 3rd photo down on the same page. He is the oriential guy in the center of the photo. David told me he remembers the filming and thay they were instructed to act excited when the target was announced. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 21:27:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:27:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today images References: Message-ID: <002301c0e2fd$a81f4a00$3a194e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Bill. The formation pictures sure bring what Mr. Heller, and Mr. Rencher were saying into sharp focus. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:02 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today images > I had nothing better to do today, so I took the video Target for > Today, and tried to capture a few 303rd related images from it. > They are at http://wejones.ftdata.com/tft.html > I'm sure there will be some recognizable people and planes. > A lot of the combat sequences are faked, but are still using real > people. I'm curious whether the formation images in group 3 are > the fake formation pictures that Bill Heller told us about a couple > months ago. In the video, they are sandwiched in between real > combat scenes, and just look to good to have been taken in the > heat of combat. > > I may do some more tomorrow. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 22:28:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:28:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010522172657.00a98aa0@home.1usa.com> As a ATP,CFII SEMEL, sounds good to me. Ed. At 03:24 PM 5/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >You lucky Duck! I am very jealous, but at least I got a ride in Texas >Raiders about ten years ago. Now about your question. > >In its simplest form, density altitude is: The higher the airport in MSL, >the thinner the air, making the wings of airplanes less efficeint, >requiring a longer takeoff roll. If your runway is not long enough, you >may not have enough takeoff role to become airborne. But this is way to >simplistic. > >Density altitude has to do with the density of air at given altitudes. >Several factors go into determining density altitude, primarily the >elevation of the airport above msl (mean sea level), partial vapor >pressures and the adiabetic lapse rate, which is how much vapor pressure >there is at various altitudes. Given all these factors, coupled with the >length of the runway at the airport from which you will be flying and the >performance charactieristics of your aircraft, all of these factors may >prevent your trip. > >Every aircraft has performance charts showing the amount of runway needed >at a certain brake horsepower at a certain density altitude. If your >airport has a short runway, coupled with the elevation of the airport (and >4200 ft. msl is a pretty high airport), and the density altitude is >relatively low, the B-17 may not have enough runway and horsepower to get >you airborne. > >Hope this helps! >Kevin >Private Pilot, Airplane, Single-Engine, Land - 1975. > > >From: b.runnels@att.net >>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >>Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude >>Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:07:24 +0000 >> >> > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- >> > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was >> > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA >> > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of >> > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can >> > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association >> > http://www.303rdBGA.com >> > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com >> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 22:37:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:37:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <7c.162137f1.283c3632@aol.com> Friend Gary, Re: Density Altitude. Air has weight. A column of Air one foot square at the bottom and extending up to 18000 feet. (just a bit over 3 miles) Would weigh over 1000 pounds. This weight consists of about 4/5 nitrogen and 1/5th Oxygen. One cubic foot of air at 18000 ft will weigh about 1/2 as much as one cubic foot of air at sea level. Hence it would have 1/2 as many molecules of Nitrogen and Oxygen. or put another way would be about 1/2 as dense. Air also becomes less dense (thinner) as it gets warmer. The density of the air is the major factor in the lift of the wings, The thrust of the propellers and in an unsuperchaarged engine the power output of the engine. Oxygen is an essential component of the combustion process in the engine. so the thinner the air is the less oxygen there is in the combustion chamber to burn with the gasoline so the less energy it produces. Average (standard) air gets thinner as it goes up so the fly boys have a certain density for (standard) air at any given altitude. If the temperature of the air is hotter than standard, it will be thinner (less dense) then the cooler (standard) air would be at that altitude.SO if we measure the density of air that is hotter than standard at any given altitude, say 10,000 feet it might be as thin (Dense) as standard air would be at say 14,000 feet. The fly boys would say the density altitude would be 14,000 ft. Now lets look at the SLC Airport. Lets say the elevation is 4200 feet MSL. Lets say the temperature is over 100 degrees. In view of the above the Density altitude could be closer to 10,000 feet. This means the unsuperchargedd airplane with a 10,000 ft ceiling could not get off the ground until the temperature cooled off early in the morning. Because a B17 is supercharged & lightly loaded I doubt it would have any trouble. BUT maybe the superchargers are not working Or maybe they just want to be extra careful with the rare OLD bird. Best Wishes lucky, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 22 23:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:55:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude In-Reply-To: <7c.162137f1.283c3632@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B0A8BDD.23383.A60A72@localhost> > Air has weight. A column of Air one foot square at the bottom > and > extending up to 18000 feet. (just a bit over 3 miles) Would weigh over > 1000 pounds. This weight consists of about 4/5 nitrogen and 1/5th > Oxygen. One Jack, Thanks very much. It may be 100 degrees on June 23rd. I imagine they're being extra careful. Come on out and go with us! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 02:47:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:47:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <12.d357d74.283c70b7@cs.com> --part1_12.d357d74.283c70b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, It looks as though Density Altitude has been fairly well explained. In essence, as the ambient temperature increases so does Density Altitude. Unfortunately, the performance of the aircraft deteriorates as Density Altitude increases. What can be done at 70 degrees is considerably different from what can be done at 100 degrees. B17s were able to diminish the effect of higher altitude through the use of superchargers. I flew on the Collings Foundation B17 several years ago. It was pretty expensive, but well worth the price. There are only a handful of flyable B17s now. Some in the FAA want to discontinue flying B17s altogether. Have a great time. I wish that I was going with you. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_12.d357d74.283c70b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary,
      It looks as though Density Altitude has been fairly well explained.  
In essence, as the ambient temperature increases so does Density Altitude.  
Unfortunately, the performance of the aircraft deteriorates as Density
Altitude increases.  What can be done at 70 degrees is considerably different
from what can be done at 100 degrees.  B17s were able to diminish the effect
of higher altitude through the use of superchargers.
      I flew on the Collings Foundation B17 several years ago.  It was
pretty expensive, but well worth the price.  There are only a handful of
flyable B17s now.  Some in the FAA want to discontinue flying B17s
altogether.  Have a great time.  I wish that I was going with you.

Regards,     

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_12.d357d74.283c70b7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 06:28:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:28:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude References: <20010522200725.GCQJ8745.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3B0B4A6B.DD79DF0A@attglobal.net> ALso find the temperature ... Cheers! Bill Heller b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > Here's a question for you B-17 experts. I am scheduled to fly on B- > > 17 Aluminum Overcast on June 23rd. My flight in SLC was > > scheduled for 11:00 am. I just got a phone call from the EAA > > wanting to reschedule us to 7:45 am because of the concerns of > > "density altitude" later in the day. SLC is at about 4200 feet. Can > > anyone explain (in simple, bonehead terms) what that is all about? > > > > Thanks, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 13:36:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:36:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <94.1482c678.283d08d9@aol.com> Rode in "909" a few months ago and it was a thrill I won't forget, sitting up there in the nose with a million recollections flooding in and out. Question, Gary....I have an 8x10 of five guys standing in front of 050 Old Thunderbird when she bellied in at Molesworth. Took the shot and processed the film myself so it's not first rate, but worth sending to you if you'd like...just send mailing address. Other photo of 050 appears on p.80 of my book "LAST RAID" (plug) Cheers....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 14:50:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 06:50:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude In-Reply-To: <94.1482c678.283d08d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B0B5DBE.3955.208889@localhost> > Rode in "909" a few months ago and it was a thrill I won't forget, > sitting up there in the nose with a million recollections flooding in > and out. Question, Gary....I have an 8x10 of five guys standing in > front of 050 Old Thunderbird when she bellied in at Molesworth. Took > the shot and processed the film myself so it's not first rate, but > worth sending to you if you'd like...just send mailing address. Other > photo of 050 appears on p.80 of my book "LAST RAID" (plug) > Cheers....Bob Hand > Bob, I'd love a copy of that photo. (Gary Moncur, 4483 Palmer Drive, West Valley City, UT 84120). Where can I find a copy of you book? (plug bait). I know the answer, but send us the URL again. :-) Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 14:06:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:06:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: Gary: Tell your brother to skip the bombs, the world has already seen enough of those. Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude >Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:46:32 -0700 > > > You lucky Duck! I am very jealous, but at least I got a ride in Texas > > Raiders about ten years ago. Now about your question. > >I'm even luckier than you think.... my sister bought me the ticket! > >SLC Airport #2 is officially: >Field elevation: 4608 MSL. >Runway: 16-34, 5862’ x 100’. > >It's a short runway, about half of SLC international. I've seen several >B-17s come in there. My brother is going with me and we're both >very excited. He wants to take bombs and a parachute. I'll just >take a camera. Thanks for the info - it is making sense now. > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 17:22:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:22:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops References: <20010516160412.094455372C@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B0BE3C6.F20F8AB2@uswest.net> I have a few questions for you Navigators and Radio Operators out there. It's unclear to me how the radio navigation was handled. Did the Navigator have his own console for ADF, Gee, etc., or was the reception handled by the RO? How many frequencies was the RO monitoring at a given time? I believe that there were several in use. If I understand correctly, there was the interphone within the plane, the plane-to-plane communications, the plane-to-base, plus the navigation frequencies. Were several channels open at once? Seems like that could be kind of busy, but then there was a lot going on, too. Did the pilots and/or ROs have to switch back and forth from interphone to plane-to-plane? I remember in the movies (12 O'Clock High, Memphis Belle, War Lover) one crew monitoring what seemed to be the intercom on another plane that was going down. That strikes me as a "Hollywood" thing that probably wasn't true unless the other a/c was on plane-to-plane. Comments? Didn't Gee require monitoring 2-3 frequencies at once for triangulation? Did the navigator do this or did the RO feed the vectors to the navigator? My recollection is that Gee was fairly weak, with a range of only 200-300 miles. When you were targeting Kiel, Lorient, etc. in the Spring of 1943, were you able to use Gee, or did you use ADF or some combination of heading and speed to locate targets? If using ADF, did you home in on a commercial signal such as Amsterdam or Paris, or what? Did only the lead plane's navigator have to do the plotting, or was every navigator involved, at least at some level? On the 21 May 43 raid on Wilhelmshaven, the formation was supposed to come in low to avoid radar before climbing to altitude. But the forecast was wrong and there were low clouds over the North Sea and the planes had to climb over and (I believe) through it. In a poor-visibility situation like that, how did you keep the plane on course and avoid collisions? Would radio silence be broken for instructions? Finally, in forming up, did each group have a separate "buncher"? I.e., did the 303rd have its own, different from, say, the 91st and the 381st? Was there much radio communication during forming up, or did you try to maintain silence immediately upon takeoff? And what, by the way, is the difference, if any, between a "buncher" and a "splasher" beacon? Lotsa questions. I'm particularly interested in the procedures used in the Spring of '43, before the CBO. I look forward to your responses. Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 17:26:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:26:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable Message-ID: <003a01c0e3a5$32d36e40$378f4d0c@o3n4f8> A friend has asked to know if their are any crew members still surviving that had Clark Gable as a crew member during his stay at the 303rd. I remember seeing his picture on the 303rd W/S, and remember vaguely some comments made here in earlier discussion. If you have a comment on Capt. Gables brief tenure with the 303rd regarding this question, please post here, or, send to : Lloyd Sunderland, lloydsunderland@att.net. Many thanks, I suspect the question is redundant, and appreciate your indulgence. Mr. Sunderland is a Veteran B-17 pilot from another group who believed in "tight formations". Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 18:24:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:24:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Msg error. Message-ID: <005f01c0e3ad$33284b60$378f4d0c@o3n4f8> Please disregard the Clark Gable msg. I posted earlier. Sorry. Misunderstanding. re: Bill Jones reply to same. cheers. Lg. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 21:07:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:07:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Density altitude Message-ID: <62.ee671e8.283d7280@aol.com> Gary, photo is on its way. The book "Last Raid" sells for $23.45 ppd via Priority Mail and is shipped same day...crammed with photos, diagrams, cartoons, drawings, etc. The mag Aviation History gave it a flattering report last March. Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, (Capt.USAF/Ret.) 'LAST RAID" HAND ENTERPRISES P. O. Box 740812 Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 20:34:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:34:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> Message-ID: <00c901c0e3bf$542d7da0$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> Richard, my notes were damaged. Fortunately, I kept a back up on disc. Did you recieve the Molesworth tape? If not , would you still like to see it? If the tape missed you for some reason, and you still would like to view it, please let me know. ( to add to the confusion, one of the tapes went missing in Texas early on and that fouled up the works a bit also ). If you were missed, I apologize and will see that one gets routed to you ASAP. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "pfico" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while your > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > viewers please? > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > Regards > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 21:26:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:26:37 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth In-Reply-To: <00c901c0e3bf$542d7da0$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010523102637.009bfaa0@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd, Am I still on the list for the tape? Any idea on when my name may come UP? Just asking. Jim Walling P.O. box 2922 Kailua-Kona, Hawaii At 03:34 PM 5/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >Richard, my notes were damaged. Fortunately, I kept a back up on disc. Did >you recieve the Molesworth tape? If not , would you still like to see it? >If the tape missed you for some reason, and you still would like to view it, >please let me know. ( to add to the confusion, one of the tapes went >missing in Texas early on and that fouled up the works a bit also ). >If you were missed, I apologize and will see that one gets routed to you >ASAP. Lloyd Grant. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "pfico" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > >> Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while >your >> tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of >> viewers please? >> >> Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> >> Regards >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Lloyd J Grant >> >> >> > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: >> >> >> >> > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 21:45:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:45:44 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <00c901c0e3bf$542d7da0$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000701c0e3c9$57ef3500$1df833cf@richards> Hi Lloyd: If I'm the Richard you are talking to ,yes I received the tape ,copied it and Forwarded it the next day. If you call me Spider I'll know who you mean, Richard "Spider"Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Richard, my notes were damaged. Fortunately, I kept a back up on disc. Did > you recieve the Molesworth tape? If not , would you still like to see it? > If the tape missed you for some reason, and you still would like to view it, > please let me know. ( to add to the confusion, one of the tapes went > missing in Texas early on and that fouled up the works a bit also ). > If you were missed, I apologize and will see that one gets routed to you > ASAP. Lloyd Grant. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pfico" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while > your > > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > > viewers please? > > > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > > > Regards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 23 21:05:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:05:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8><00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8><001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <3.0.5.32.20010523102637.009bfaa0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <01b901c0e3c3$bfa40820$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Walling, ..."a promise made, is a debt unpaid..." ( Robert Service). I guarntee that you are on the list, and I apologize to everyone for the wait. The tape that Gary sent to Texas got lost in the mail inbetween Dallas and Austin, so that set the schedule back a little bit. On the average, it seems to be taking about a week to nine days ( in the extreme) to get from one point to the other. I want to thank everyone involved for the help and cooperation given in getting this tape around. There are about eight or nine folks left on the list and you and Gordy are included. Thanks for your patience, Jim, and thanks for keeping in touch. Lloyd Grant ( I have just been going through my back-up disk to make sure that everyone is current on the list. I am glad I did.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 00:10:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (pfico) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:10:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <00c901c0e3bf$542d7da0$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000f01c0e3dd$af7609c0$ac604dd1@net> > Richard, my notes were damaged. Fortunately, I kept a back up on disc. Did > you recieve the Molesworth tape? > Lloyd - No I have not received anything yet and will like to view it if it comes my way. Thanks for keeping me on the list. I will contact you when it arrives.\ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 00:44:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:44:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 flight Message-ID: You guys are killing me with your talk about flying in a B-17!! I'm very envious. Do you know where I can find a list of places that offer flights? How about a list of static displays? We live in Central Illinois, but I haven't been able to find anything near here. Thanks Jay From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 02:01:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:01:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0BFAEA.17784.28690D9@localhost> > Do you know where I can find a list of places that offer flights? How > about a list of static displays? We live in Central Illinois, but I > haven't been able to find anything near here. Jay, our links page has much of what you're after - near the bottom of the page. http://www.303rdbga.com/links.html and check out Nine-O-Nine and Aluminum Overcast at: http://www.collingsfoundation.org http://www.b17.org/ - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 01:32:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:32:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Russian Fighters Message-ID: <105.3cc83b0.283db0b5@aol.com> --part1_105.3cc83b0.283db0b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really enjoy reading your experiences during the war gentlemen. I miss talking to my dad about them. Did any of you encounter Russian fighters while on missions over Eastern Europe? I have read two accounts of Russian fighters attacking our bombers while over in Eastern Europe. I believe some of the Russian fighters were shot down, by the way. Terry Lucas --part1_105.3cc83b0.283db0b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really enjoy reading your experiences during the war gentlemen. I miss
talking to my dad about them. Did any of you encounter Russian fighters while
on missions over Eastern Europe? I have read two accounts of Russian fighters
attacking our bombers while over in Eastern Europe. I believe some of the
Russian fighters were shot down, by the way.
Terry Lucas --part1_105.3cc83b0.283db0b5_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 02:29:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:29:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> <00c901c0e3bf$542d7da0$c0b34d0c@o3n4f8> <000f01c0e3dd$af7609c0$ac604dd1@net> Message-ID: <001701c0e3f0$f9d02d80$77914d0c@o3n4f8> SNAFU, Mr. Young. My fault. I will see that you get the tape, and will let you know in advance when it is sent. Thanks for your reply. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "pfico" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape > > > > Richard, my notes were damaged. Fortunately, I kept a back up on disc. > Did > > you recieve the Molesworth tape? > > > Lloyd - No I have not received anything yet and will like to view it if it > comes my way. Thanks for keeping me on the list. I will contact you when it > arrives.\ > > Rich Young > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 03:57:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JJENKINSR@cs.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:57:24 +0000 ("GMT") Subject: [303rd-Talk] [www.washtimes.com] WWII Memorial Message-ID: <200105232257151.SM00168@ignatius> JJENKINSR@cs.com has sent you an article from The Washington Times. I hope that a recent Editorial from the Washington Times concerning the long overdue WWII Memorial in Washington, DC accompanies this message. This topic may be of interest to some of you. If you want to voice any concerns over the numerous delays that have been encountered in the construction of the national WWII Memorial please email the National Capital Planning Commission Commission at info@ncpc.gov. It is ironic that the 20th Century conflict with the most casualties for this country has no national Memorial - John A. Jenkins ----------------------------------------------------------- A MONUMENTAL BATTLE House Editorial ----------------------------------------------------------- In the next year, around 400,000 of the 16 million Americans who served in World War II will likely die. These war heroes, whose acts of courage protected innocent lives in America and across the world, may not even have the ability to see the cornerstone placed on a memorial on the National Mall that would commemorate their sacrifices. This, after 22 public hearings and over eight years of debate. Sen. Tim Hutchinson led an attempt yesterday to stop the bureaucratic haranguing and let the American Battle Monuments Commission get on with it. He, and Rep. Bob Stump, the Republican from Arizona who pushed a similar version of the bill through the House last week, are to be commended. The bill would pave the way for the swift construction of the war memorial at the current location of the Rainbow Pool, between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial. It would also void a lawsuit that is now being processed in federal court to prevent the construction. It would stop a continual cycle of revisiting the debate, especially by the National Capitol Planning Commission, which has had to approve and reapprove the project with every new debate during the past eight years since Congress first passed a bill allowing the land to be used for the memorial. Critics complain that politicians are trying to ram the legislation through, and that the construction is too obtrusive or not heroic enough. These doomsayers have either been asleep for the last eight-plus years of debate, or they have never seen a model of the memorial, which has gone through many transformations in the last years. The final version, designed by Friedrich St. Florian, is a celebratory combination of water and light, with 56 granite pillars, two 41-foot arches and a sunken plaza with miniature fountains and waterfalls. The design frames, rather than obstructs, the view of the Washington Monument and U.S. Capitol. As for the complaint that the monument is not suited to the veterans´ bravery, the Field of Gold Stars and a 47-foot high Memorial Arch appropriately celebrate the lives of the Americans who served their country. If the bill passes in the Senate, and President Bush signs it next week, the construction would likely start before the end of the year, according to Mr. Hutchinson´s office. Construction would take approximately two years. As this page goes to print, the bill has not passed in the Senate and the doomsayers are still working hard to throw up roadblocks. It is a commemoration of heroes they are fighting against. This Memorial Day, the critics could not have picked a worse way to say thank you to the thousands of veterans who risked their lives. Let´s hope those who recognize the honor due the U.S. servicemen prevail, and soon. ----------------------------------------------------------- This article was mailed from The Washington Times (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010522-23404680.htm) For more great articles, visit us at http://www.washtimes.com Copyright (c) 2001 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 03:18:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:18:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Russian Fighters References: <105.3cc83b0.283db0b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <004501c0e3f7$dcdd6ce0$77914d0c@o3n4f8> Terry, I will venture a guess on this. I believe the incident(s) that you are speaking of did occur, but more likely in the Far Eastern regions of Russia (USSR) near the border with China. Beyond that my memory fails me in fact, it may already have done so.) Wiser men than I, come here. With luck, they will speak, and both of us will learn something we didn't know yet... Cheers, Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:32 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Russian Fighters > I really enjoy reading your experiences during the war gentlemen. I miss > talking to my dad about them. Did any of you encounter Russian fighters while > on missions over Eastern Europe? I have read two accounts of Russian fighters > attacking our bombers while over in Eastern Europe. I believe some of the > Russian fighters were shot down, by the way. > Terry Lucas > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 06:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:07:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <000701c0e40f$6de15460$d01b4e0c@o3n4f8> I wonder why this Country should apologize to the Veterans of WW II. To paraphase a remark often stated by a friend of mine, " We won that War." A grateful Nation, for once, recognized the service of the men who fought in that Conflict, and the gratitude for their service and sacrifice has never gone wanting, nor , unforgotten. The memory persists even into the 21st Century. If you want to see a legacy, take a look around while you are driving down the highway in your air conditioned car. Take a look at the road signs announcing your entry into another State. See any border guards asking for your "papers" ? Notice the buildings, and the homes. This Country thanked the Veterans of World War Two with the GI Bill, Small business loans, and the ability to own a home, and even a car; and a job to come home to. In my opinion the Veterans of World War Two deserve something better than a "Memorial". A Memorial is an apology cast in marble honoring men who risked and sacrificed their lives for a Country that put them in harms way with very little chance of success. Korean War Veterans deserve a Memorial. Vietnam Veterans deserve a Memorial. They deserve an apology. The Veterans of World War Two deserve a tribute, if enough have not yet been made, then I will support your efforts wholeheartedly. With all due respect, Lloyd Grant. ( my arse is grass for this, I reckon. That's how I feel about the subject). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 07:47:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:47:47 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew member duties In-Reply-To: <000701c0e40f$6de15460$d01b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010523204747.009bd100@ilhawaii.net> I wonder if the other members saw the duties of the various crew members as I did: The pilot was captain of the ship. With the help of the navigator and the co-pilot, he was to get the plane to the target and back home, hopefully intact. The bombardier was to see that the bombs went where they were supposed to. The gunners were to protect the plane from enemy aircraft, and observe the condition of the engines and fuselage. The radioman was to thaw out the sandwiches for the crew's lunch. Jim Walling ball turret gunner From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 09:00:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:00:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: I didn't see any answers to your questions on the radios so I'll try. As I remember the pilots had 4 VHF frequencies. they could monitor. Usually one pilot listened to two and the one flying listened to the other 2. Every one listened to the intercom. At altitude on our crew we had an oxygen check every 30 seconds.Usualy the Bombardier or ever who wanted to said "check" Then starting at the rear of the plane every one repeated his position ie tail, waist, ball, radio, engineer. The two pilots could see each other as could the navigator and Bombardier so they did not check in. Only the Navigator used the Gee. but it came in on a scope on one frequency. The pilots and navigator could used the ADF, But it was for navigation only. We didn't bomb with it and a lot of pilots and navigators didn't know how to use it. I think the Radio Operator could monitor about 7 frequencies. One was Morris code only and he could listen to the 4 VHF's the pilots monitored. The radio compass (ADF) could tune in about any station. Commercial Broadcasts or whatever. We didn't use it much on missions except maybe the lead crew or if you were coming home alone. The buncher the 303rd assembled on was19 and one half miles west of our airport. The 379th and 384th used it also but we assembled and flew at different altitudes. We didn't have radio silence. We didn't use it just to visit We didn't us it any more than we needed to. With a 1000 planes and 7 frequencies it could get cluttered so we tried to stay off and just listen. Some of the messages were in code that were changed every 2 or 3 hours or so as I remember. The only way we could avoid collisions was to stay in formation and keep your eyes open. If the visibility was so bad you couldn't stay in formation you'd just as well pray and head for home. We couldn't bomb anyway you didn't have a bomb sight. At the altitudes we flew and with our close formation I personally never saw visibility that bad.on a mission It would have to get below 100 feet or so. At our altitudes that would usually only be caused by vapor trails and we could usually go up or down a bit and get out of them. I don know the difference between a buncher and a splasher. In fact I don't know what a splasher is unless it's a baby playing in the bath tub. You were right on about the range of the Gee and the Germans could jam it if we tried to use it deep in Germany. Lots of questions. I hop I got them all. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 13:30:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:30:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <97.15d64a96.283e58e3@aol.com> I attended the groundbreaking ceremony for the WWII Memorial thanks to my son Pete who generously picked up the tab and the scene there was of heartfelt enthusiasm. It was, as he said, one small way to pay back the life he enjoys. I hope the whole idea doesn't get bogged down one way or another, as it's long overdue. Pete, thanks again, you're something else! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 13:42:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:42:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: <16.d3e89b8.283e5bcd@aol.com> Jack do you recall the "pundit" which used to emit the morse code for MX....dash dash, dash-dot-dot-dash, identifying Molesworth. Really scraping for memories. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 14:04:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:04:46 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew member duties Message-ID: <20010524130447.RPYI29100.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Only one difference, on our crew the bombardier was charged with the responsibility of warmig the sandwiches for the crews lunch. HA .....Bill > I wonder if the other members saw the duties of the various crew members as I > did: > > The pilot was captain of the ship. With the help of the navigator and the > co-pilot, he was to get the plane to the target and back > Jim Walling ball turret gunner > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 15:48:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:48:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The buncher the 303rd assembled > on was19 and one half miles west of our airport. ..... > ...... > ......... I don know the > difference between a buncher and a splasher. I have one report written by by father, that JIm Walling sent me. It describes landing through clouds doing " a splasher let-down on splasher 16" , so I have been assuming that they must have assembled on the buncher 19 you mentioned, and landed with the splasher 16 that must have been closer to the end of the runway. Someone once gave me a description of the process of using the splasher, but I've forgotten. I'm sure I still have the message somewhere. Just a guess. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 16:28:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:28:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A tribute Message-ID: <002701c0e466$26b272c0$fa1b4e0c@o3n4f8> For the record. I have written to all the Representives and Senators in my State in support of the WW II Memorial. I did so when Gary posted his message to the forum. Such a Tribute is indeed, long overdue. I know that some of you served not only in WW II, but also in Korea AND Vietnam. The difference between Memorial, and , Tribute is symantic. The men and women of the United States Armed Forces have always been there when the Country has called on them. Those who served in Korea and Viet Nam merit an apology in my opinion. The Veterans of WW II deserve a lot more than just a long overdue Memorial in the Nations Capital. Please just disregard the message with your "delete" button. The message was inappropriate for posting here. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 19:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:24:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 May 01, at 10:48, Bill Jones wrote: > > > The buncher the 303rd assembled > > on was19 and one half miles west of our airport. ..... > > ...... > > ......... I don know the > > difference between a buncher and a splasher. > >....... so I have been assuming that they must have > assembled on the buncher 19 you mentioned, and landed with the > splasher 16 that must have been closer to the end of the runway. > Someone once gave me a description of the process of using the > splasher, but I've forgotten. I'm sure I still have the message > somewhere. I found a couple old messages that people sent me describing bunchers/splashers. One of the messages said that the procedure was to tune the radio compass (the antenna for which I think is the torpedo shaped thing under the navigators station) into the appropriate frequency. He said that his group (381st) would take off and fly toward a buncher beacon 1/2 miles off the runnway, then, when the needle on the compass swung around, they would do a 180deg turn, come back for a few miles, then do another 180, flying back towards the buncher again, repeating this procedure until they would break through the clouds and be able to assemble. Gary's 303rdbga web page has a page http://www.303rdbga.com/aircraft-assembly.html describing use of the Harrington buncher , which was 19mi away, but doesn't give any details of whether it was a similar procedure, or if they flew back and forth between Harrington and Molesworth. Perhaps someone can elaborate on how the 303rd did it. He said that the beacon could be used for let-down also, and I'm pretty sure someone else once sent me a description of how that worked, but I couldn't find it. It is not nearly as clear to me how you can assure lining up with the runway using one of these "splasher" beacons. If I had to guess, I'd guess that you came in at right angles to the runway, until the beacon swung to 90deg, then turn and follow the beacon, but that is just a guess on my part. Can anyone confirm? I have read comments from several pilots suggesting that landing or taking off in the pea soup was a very stressful situation even with these beacons. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 19:18:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:18:33 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Msg error. In-Reply-To: <005f01c0e3ad$33284b60$378f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010524081833.009c8ce0@ilhawaii.net> My friend and classmate, Guy H. McClung, died in Corpus Christi, Texas, on May 21. He was a pilot serving in the 359th squadron of the 303rd from February 22, 1943 until he completed his 25 missions on August 15, 1943. He then signed up for another tour. He was a true gentleman, and I will miss him. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 20:14:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:14:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Callsign usage Message-ID: I understand that the radio callsigns for the 1st division combat wings were: 1 CBW Swordfish 40 CBW Foxhole 41 CBW Cowboy 94 CBW Woodcraft and that the bomb groups within the wings were usually called Able, Baker , and Charlie , (ie Cowboy-Baker, etc) I assume that these callsigns would be used to address the lead planes of the group and wing. However I'm not sure how individual planes, or even squadron lead planes would identify themselves. I understand that each squadron had a callsign, for example, 358 BS: Whipcream 359 BS: Eavesdrop 360 BS: Toydoll 427 BS: Newrow But I also know that each squadron had a Plane ID, for example; 358 BS: VK 359 BS: BN 360 BS: PU 427 BS: GN each plane having the squadron code and a 1 letter "callsign". Question is, would a plane identify itself on the radio as something like "Toydoll - X " or would he use the aircraft call, ie "PU-X" , or would he use the 3 number designation, like 552 with one of the squadron identifiers??? looking at the notes my father wrote on his maps, he would sometimes refer to a plane by the pilot's name, and other times would refer to it by number. I know several of us are intrigued by what the radio traffic really sounded like, compared to what we hear in the movies, and integral to that understanding is knowing how each plane identified itself. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 20:28:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:28:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew member duties Message-ID: <2d.c3b3b57.283ebad2@aol.com> As bombardier I passed around the empty fuse cans to be used as micro-latrines. This was done with ample warning about the razor sharp edge on the can....don't, for Pete's sake, attempt to use the thing in rough air. And always ALWAYS clear the air behind the aircraft with the ball turret when disposing of same. (Last Raid, Ch.4,p 29) Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 21:54:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:54:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew member duties Message-ID: <12.d4b11ff.283ecf18@aol.com> bombardier did oxygen checks also. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 21:56:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:56:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <4f.c2fbefa.283ecf93@aol.com> all who read this contact their l congresspersons and the wwii memorial commission. get going. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 22:13:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:13:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] [www.washtimes.com] WWII Memorial Message-ID: <24.140d069c.283ed35e@aol.com> john jenkins, thanks for item. i promptly wrote to capitol persons. pray all and familiesxand friends w2ill comply promptly. spec is there an email address available? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 24 22:16:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:16:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: Lloyd: I think a WWII Memorial is not an apology but a fine tribute to all those who fought and died to keep this country free. What I do not understand are the WWII veterans who are opposed to the Memorial on that grassy patch of land between the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument. I think it should be built on the most prominent property this country owns. As much as I respect the Iwo Jima Memorial, it is time this country wakes up and remembers what the "Greatest Generation" as a whole did for this country. I'd also like to see some kind of memorial for all those on the homefront who outproduced the Axis nations. As an aside, I am very pleased there has been such a media stir by the Pearl Harbor Movie. Yes, yes, there have been many movies about the event. I lost an uncle on the Arizona (Robert Pearson, Fireman Third Class), but I do not hear the media now saying it was a "suprise," or an "unprovoked" or "dastardly" attack, and that just irritates the hell out of me! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology >Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:07:25 -0400 > >I wonder why this Country should apologize to the Veterans of WW II. To >paraphase a remark often stated by a friend of mine, " We won that War." >A grateful Nation, for once, recognized the service of the men who fought >in >that Conflict, and the gratitude for their service and sacrifice has never >gone wanting, nor , unforgotten. The memory persists even into the 21st >Century. If you want to see a legacy, take a look around while you are >driving down the highway in your air conditioned car. Take a look at the >road signs announcing your entry into another State. See any border guards >asking for your "papers" ? Notice the buildings, and the homes. This >Country thanked the Veterans of World War Two with the GI Bill, Small >business loans, and the ability to own a home, and even a car; and a job >to >come home to. > >In my opinion the Veterans of World War Two deserve something better than a >"Memorial". A Memorial is an apology cast in marble honoring men who >risked >and sacrificed their lives for a Country that put them in harms way with >very little chance of success. Korean War Veterans deserve a Memorial. >Vietnam Veterans deserve a Memorial. They deserve an apology. >The Veterans of World War Two deserve a tribute, if enough have not yet >been >made, then I will support your efforts wholeheartedly. With all due >respect, >Lloyd Grant. ( my arse is grass for this, I reckon. That's how I feel >about the subject). > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 02:28:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:28:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: <102.3b41143.283f0f4c@aol.com> Bob Hand, Sorry I don't remember Pundit. I guess to many trees in the forest of tomorrows have moved into the forest of yesterdays. Sorry Bob Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 03:20:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:20:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: Bill Jones, As I remember in the 303rd when we took off on instruments we headed west 19 &1/2 miles in a straight line using ADF and tried to be close to our assemble altitude when we got there. We would have the tail gunner flash a Morris Code letter identifying our Squadron out the rear so if you were following another plane you would know if he was from our squadron this helped keep each squadron in a line so when we got to the buncher we would hopefully all be together. We circled the buncher to the left until our squadron was all assembled and it was time to leave on course. We would continue to climb on course until we reached our assigned altitude. By the time we got to the English coast out we should have our group together and be within 15 seconds of our schedule so we would have all the groups in a line that was not stretched out to long, hence making it easier for our fighter escort to patrol. LANDING on Instruments, We had spotlights every 50 feet or so in a big circle around our airport. They were shinning straight up. They were quite bright and even in fairly heavy fog you could see them from about a 100 feet. We would break our formation over the buncher beacon and one about every 15 seconds would start a let down on DR (dead Reckoning) with a decent fast enough we would hope to pick up the circle of lights when we got contact. This circle of lights was about 15 miles in diameter so we didn't have to be too sharp. When we picked up the lights we would just follow them around to the left and they could be turned on and off by the tower so as to lead us into the active runway. They had colored lights on the final so we would know when and where to get the gear and flaps down. If you missed the lights when you let down you could get "Darkie" on your radio and they would give you a course and distance to Molesworth. If this seems a bit hairy, it was, but you must remember. We were expendable. (All except Bill Heller, Harry Gobrecht and Jack Rencher PS. I don't know how the other groups let down. Being in a different location they would have a different procedure. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 02:31:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:31:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Msg error. References: <3.0.5.32.20010524081833.009c8ce0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <001701c0e4ba$61cf4f00$2d184e0c@o3n4f8> Jim, my father was from Corpus Christi, Texas also. He left in 1985. Per his request his family scattered his ashes off the Crash Boat dock at McDill AFB ( a few blocks up the street from where we lived in 1952.) The same duplex is still there. I regret the loss of your friend, Jim. But, I am glad that YOU are still with us. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Msg error. > My friend and classmate, Guy H. McClung, died in Corpus Christi, Texas, on May 21. He was a pilot serving in the 359th squadron of the 303rd from February 22, 1943 until he completed his 25 missions on August 15, 1943. He then signed up for another tour. He was a true gentleman, and I will miss him. > > Jim Walling > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 03:40:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:40:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] [www.washtimes.com] WWII Memorial Message-ID: <93.b2c4261.283f2032@cs.com> --part1_93.b2c4261.283f2032_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, The email address for the National Capital Planning Commission is info@ncpc.gov. The current Chairman is Mr. Richard L. Friedman. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_93.b2c4261.283f2032_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,
      The email address for the National Capital Planning Commission is
info@ncpc.gov.  The current Chairman is Mr. Richard L. Friedman.

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_93.b2c4261.283f2032_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 03:31:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:31:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tape up-date Message-ID: <002101c0e4c2$de154c60$2d184e0c@o3n4f8> There were originally three tapes sent out. The first was the one I sent to Bill Owens, the second was the one Gary Moncur sent to Bill Bergerson, and the third was sent by Don Kehne to Maurice Paulk. In my log I have them labeled as: ( A ) , (B) , and ( C ). The ( A ) tape: Fm LG to Bill Owens, fm B.O. to "Spec", Fm IB to Louis Grandwilliams, Fm LG to Todd Hollritt, fm TH to Bill Jones, fm BJ to Edward Frank, fm EF to Michael Zarelli, Fm MF to Clyde Henning ( Clyde wants his daughters to see the tape before he sends it on ( Monday) The ( B ) tape: Fm GM to Bill Bergerson, Fm BB to William Maher, Jr.---- M.I.A. from that point. ( the Commanches got the pony express rider? ) The ( C ) tape: Fm DK to Maurice Paulk, Fm MP to Tom Mays, Fm TM to "Spider", fm DS to Bob Rettinhouse, Fm BR to Charles Jaehne, Fm CJ to Humphrey O' Leary, Fm HL to William Lee, fm WL to Bill Dallas ( diverted back to Texas after Commanche attack ). fm BD to Doug Hayworth.... Those still on the list: Robert Kerr, Tempe, AR., Richard Young, Grass Valley, CA, Bob Hand, Boynton Bch., FL., Fred Reichmann, Pensacola, FL., Anne E. Grant (no relation), Venice, FL., Jay Primavera, Sullivan, IL., Jack Rencher, Boise, ID., James Phillips, Kalamazoo, MI., Jim Walling, Kailua Kona, HA., Gordy Alton, Salt Spg. Is., BC. So far, this has been a labor of love. What ever the "touch" this tape has had; remains an individual thing. It has brought us all together in a way that I will not attempt to define. The list is open to anyone who still wants to see the tape. For those of you have been patiently waiting; thanks. Robert Service quote: " A promise made, is a debt unpaid.." You have my promise. On the occassion of Memorial Day, 2001: Just this; thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 04:16:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:16:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: [HeavyBombers] Clark Gable Missions Message-ID: <007d01c0e4c9$0e0d83a0$2d184e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd Sunderland" To: "HeavyBombers.com" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [HeavyBombers] Clark Gable Missions > [Web Page] http://www.heavybombers.com > / > > > Please visit the 303rd BGA website > > for stories and photos. There is a direct link: http://www.303rdBGA.com > . > > Aside. Lloyd, may I say that I genuinely enjoy your thoughtful and > > informative responses to some of the questions posed here. I have many > > saved to file as reference. And, beside that, I really like your first > name > > ; makes me proud, sir. Regards, LLoyd Grant. ( 303rd, 427th son.) > ************************** > Lloyd, > > Thanks for the nice words. At least I can depend on you to spell my name > correctly. It is amazing how many ways people find to mix those letters. > > I always remember the 303rd BG with the triangle-C on the tail. One morning > I had a runaway prop on takeoff and had to circle the field until the entire > group of 54 planes took off before I could land. They had a spare plane > waiting for me to take on the mission, and we got airborne as soon as > possible. By the time I got to altitude at the rendezvous point the 381st > BG was no where to be seen, but the group with the big C on the tails was > passing by. I was really wary about tagging along with them because we had > been warned about German phonies doing that with restored B-17s. I flew > along side of the formation for a while and gradually slid into the tail end > Charlie position for the entire trip. It would be interesting to know if > that ever showed on their post mission debriefings. I don't recall the > exact date or the target, but it must have been in July, 1944. > > Lloyd Sunderland > S Daytona, FL ==^================================================================ > ==^================================================================ > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 05:49:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:49:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <43.15b06b2e.283f3e59@cs.com> --part1_43.15b06b2e.283f3e59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not know if it is possible to apologize appropriately to those who served or to those who lost loved ones in any conflict. All that we can do is remember the young people who served and may have perished in the name of freedom. If you look hard you will find a small Memorial to those who served during the First World War near the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC. We have erected much more grandiose Memorials to those who served in Korea and Vietnam. Certainly, if we have made the effort to construct Memorials to those who served in relatively less costly conflicts, then we must expend the effort to build a Memorial to those who served during a conflict which determined how we and others in the world live today. Concerning the recently released movie 'Pearl Harbor' I have not seen this film, but I understand that it is 'politically correct'. This means that there is very little, if anything, in the film that would offend the Japanese. If you are looking for an accurate portrayal of the true nature of the surprise attack by Imperial Japan on US military installations in Oahu you may be disappointed. While I was in the Navy there was a Chief who worked for me who had a Pay Entry Base Date (PEBD) of December 8, 1941. As he did not have a break in service this means that he enlisted on the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. I will remember that always. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_43.15b06b2e.283f3e59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      I do not know if it is possible to apologize appropriately to those
who served or to those who lost loved ones in any conflict.  All that we can
do is remember the young people who served and may have perished in the name
of freedom.  If you look hard you will find a small Memorial to those who
served during the First World War near the Lincoln Memorial in Washington,
DC.  We have erected much more grandiose Memorials to those who served in
Korea and Vietnam.  Certainly, if we have made the effort to construct
Memorials to those who served in relatively less costly conflicts, then we
must expend the effort to build a Memorial to those who served during a
conflict which determined how we and others in the world live today.
      Concerning the recently released movie 'Pearl Harbor' I have not seen
this film, but I understand that it is 'politically correct'.  This means
that there is very little, if anything, in the film that would offend the
Japanese.  If you are looking for an accurate portrayal of the true nature of
the surprise attack by Imperial Japan on US military installations in Oahu
you may be disappointed.
       While I was in the Navy there was a Chief who worked for me who had a
Pay Entry Base Date (PEBD) of December 8, 1941.  As he did not have a break
in service this means that he enlisted on the day after the attack on Pearl
Harbor.  I will remember that always.

Regards,           

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_43.15b06b2e.283f3e59_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 05:44:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:44:19 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Col. Guy McClung In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010524081833.009c8ce0@ilhawaii.net> References: <005f01c0e3ad$33284b60$378f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010524184419.009c7cc0@ilhawaii.net> I should have added that Guy retired as a Lt. Col. I am not sure when he retired. At 08:18 AM 5/24/01 -1000, you wrote: >My friend and classmate, Guy H. McClung, died in Corpus Christi, Texas, on May 21. He was a pilot serving in the 359th squadron of the 303rd from February 22, 1943 until he completed his 25 missions on August 15, 1943. He then signed up for another tour. He was a true gentleman, and I will miss him. > >Jim Walling > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 06:16:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:16:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology References: <43.15b06b2e.283f3e59@cs.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0e4d9$cec929e0$038f4d0c@o3n4f8> John, You have reiterated the point that I had hoped I was making. I wish I had not said anything, but I still believe the point of view was valid, ie. no one was standing in line at the recruitment statiions during the Korean Police Action), nor during the Viet Nam , Cambodia, Laos ( Domino Game ). The men and women that served in those "Conflicts" deserve an apology. They were no less courageous than the men and women who won WW II. Here is , I hope, my point. WW II veterans were welcomed home, celebrated, and appreciated for what they did. Korean War( sorry, Police action) veterans were largely forgotten. But, at least they won a stalemate. Almost as many men were killed in Korea in 3 years as were those killed in Viet Nam over the course of 10 years. When they came home there were no parades, no thanks, no love, and no jobs. Yet, sir, they were all every bit as brave, and loyal, and sacrificing as their fathers and Uncles had taught them to be. If I use the term "Tribute" in favor of "Memorial", with respect to WW II vets , it is as I may have said earlier, only a problem of symantics . I understand what I am trying to say; unfortunately, no one else does. C'est la vie. Thank you for caring enough to respond, John. with appreciation and respect, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > I do not know if it is possible to apologize appropriately to those > who served or to those who lost loved ones in any conflict. All that we can > do is remember the young people who served and may have perished in the name > of freedom. If you look hard you will find a small Memorial to those who > served during the First World War near the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, > DC. We have erected much more grandiose Memorials to those who served in > Korea and Vietnam. Certainly, if we have made the effort to construct > Memorials to those who served in relatively less costly conflicts, then we > must expend the effort to build a Memorial to those who served during a > conflict which determined how we and others in the world live today. > Concerning the recently released movie 'Pearl Harbor' I have not seen > this film, but I understand that it is 'politically correct'. This means > that there is very little, if anything, in the film that would offend the > Japanese. If you are looking for an accurate portrayal of the true nature of > the surprise attack by Imperial Japan on US military installations in Oahu > you may be disappointed. > While I was in the Navy there was a Chief who worked for me who had a > Pay Entry Base Date (PEBD) of December 8, 1941. As he did not have a break > in service this means that he enlisted on the day after the attack on Pearl > Harbor. I will remember that always. > > Regards, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 08:07:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:07:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology References: Message-ID: <3B0E04B5.D7C7B626@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... The equine proctodiae of today will continue to re-write history as they WISH it had been. As a WW#2 (the one we won) combatant I often get sick and tired of what Hollywood and their queers shove down our throats when they change history .... Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Lloyd: I think a WWII Memorial is not an apology but a fine tribute to all > those who fought and died to keep this country free. What I do not > understand are the WWII veterans who are opposed to the Memorial on that > grassy patch of land between the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington > Monument. I think it should be built on the most prominent property this > country owns. As much as I respect the Iwo Jima Memorial, it is time this > country wakes up and remembers what the "Greatest Generation" as a whole did > for this country. I'd also like to see some kind of memorial for all those > on the homefront who outproduced the Axis nations. > > As an aside, I am very pleased there has been such a media stir by the Pearl > Harbor Movie. Yes, yes, there have been many movies about the event. I > lost an uncle on the Arizona (Robert Pearson, Fireman Third Class), but I do > not hear the media now saying it was a "suprise," or an "unprovoked" or > "dastardly" attack, and that just irritates the hell out of me! > Kevin > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > >Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:07:25 -0400 > > > >I wonder why this Country should apologize to the Veterans of WW II. To > >paraphase a remark often stated by a friend of mine, " We won that War." > >A grateful Nation, for once, recognized the service of the men who fought > >in > >that Conflict, and the gratitude for their service and sacrifice has never > >gone wanting, nor , unforgotten. The memory persists even into the 21st > >Century. If you want to see a legacy, take a look around while you are > >driving down the highway in your air conditioned car. Take a look at the > >road signs announcing your entry into another State. See any border guards > >asking for your "papers" ? Notice the buildings, and the homes. This > >Country thanked the Veterans of World War Two with the GI Bill, Small > >business loans, and the ability to own a home, and even a car; and a job > >to > >come home to. > > > >In my opinion the Veterans of World War Two deserve something better than a > >"Memorial". A Memorial is an apology cast in marble honoring men who > >risked > >and sacrificed their lives for a Country that put them in harms way with > >very little chance of success. Korean War Veterans deserve a Memorial. > >Vietnam Veterans deserve a Memorial. They deserve an apology. > >The Veterans of World War Two deserve a tribute, if enough have not yet > >been > >made, then I will support your efforts wholeheartedly. With all due > >respect, > >Lloyd Grant. ( my arse is grass for this, I reckon. That's how I feel > >about the subject). > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 08:11:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:11:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops References: Message-ID: <3B0E05B9.7160B964@attglobal.net> Jack ... I'd check that "15 miles in diameter" for if so, it would also cover MANY other B17 Bases in the area. (Could you mean 1.5 miles?) ... Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, As I remember in the 303rd when we took off on instruments we > headed west 19 &1/2 miles in a straight line using ADF and tried to be close > to our assemble altitude when we got there. We would have the tail gunner > flash a Morris Code letter identifying our Squadron out the rear so if you > were following another plane you would know if he was from our squadron this > helped keep each squadron in a line so when we got to the buncher we would > hopefully all be together. We circled the buncher to the left until our > squadron was all assembled and it was time to leave on course. We would > continue to climb on course until we reached our assigned altitude. By the > time we got to the English coast out we should have our group together and be > within 15 seconds of our schedule so we would have all the groups in a line > that was not stretched out to long, hence making it easier for our fighter > escort to patrol. > > LANDING on Instruments, > We had spotlights every 50 feet or so in a big circle around our > airport. They were shinning straight up. They were quite bright and even in > fairly heavy fog you could see them from about a 100 feet. We would break > our formation over the buncher beacon and one about every 15 seconds would > start a let down on DR (dead Reckoning) with a decent fast enough we would > hope to pick up the circle of lights when we got contact. This circle of > lights was about 15 miles in diameter so we didn't have to be too sharp. > When we picked up the lights we would just follow them around to the left and > they could be turned on and off by the tower so as to lead us into the active > runway. They had colored lights on the final so we would know when and where > to get the gear and flaps down. If you missed the lights when you let down > you could get "Darkie" on your radio and they would give you a course and > distance to Molesworth. If this seems a bit hairy, it was, but you must > remember. We were expendable. (All except Bill Heller, Harry Gobrecht and > Jack Rencher > PS. I don't know how the other groups let down. Being in a different > location they would have a different procedure. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 13:13:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:13:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tape up-date Message-ID: <72.ada8dab.283fa672@aol.com> Where do I send the tape to - you or where??? Clyde. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 14:12:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:12:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Pearl Harbor" Message-ID: <42.1547aa8b.283fb431@aol.com> --part1_42.1547aa8b.283fb431_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I agree with you 100%!!!! Disney is so worried about making money in Japan with this movie, which opens in theaters over there in July, that they are going to be "too politically correct"!!!!! They cut out one our commanders quotes about Japan in the movie because they were afraid it would offend the Japanese. The Japanese-Americans are afraid the rest of the American population will turn on them because fo the movie, I heard on TV this week. This poor movie doesn't have a chance historically. Terry Lucas --part1_42.1547aa8b.283fb431_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I agree with you 100%!!!! Disney is so worried about making money in
Japan with this movie, which opens in theaters over there in July, that they
are going to be "too politically correct"!!!!! They cut out one our
commanders quotes about Japan in the movie because they were afraid it would
offend the Japanese. The Japanese-Americans are afraid the rest of the
American population will turn on them because fo the movie, I heard on TV
this week. This poor movie doesn't have a chance historically.
Terry Lucas --part1_42.1547aa8b.283fb431_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 15:09:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:09:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew member duties Message-ID: <17.164ebc2d.283fc1ac@aol.com> Bombardier's duty was to fuse and arm the bomb load while traversing the Channel to never-never land. On our crew we were responsible for our own chutes, parked under the aircraft wing and covered with a heavy tarp. Also, it was wise to tuck an apple and a peanut butter sandwich in your shirt for safekeeping and a homebound snack. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 15:13:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:13:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: No need to ever be sorry....I enjoy all your informative messages to the hilt....Good wishes always, Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 15:19:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:19:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: <37.15968d54.283fc3f5@aol.com> Bill Heller, You are absolutely right. I intended to write 2 miles. The only thing I can figure is I was sleepy. it was after midnight and I am over 80 years old. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. No wonder the Guys at Grafton-Underwood and Kimbolton were always in our traffic pattern Keep an eye on me. The sherriff does. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 15:32:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:32:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: Bill Heller,After I I sent this last message I thought" What was I thinking about? I was thinking 15 Miles in circumference and said diameter. No wonder Hitler thought he could win the war we me in it. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 17:30:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:30:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tape up-date Message-ID: <10e.395c57.283fe29e@aol.com> What address do I use to send the tapes???? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 17:36:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:36:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Tape up-date Message-ID: <76.ac8a040.283fe407@aol.com> Lloyd, Just a p.s. - I got the address , Thanks. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 17:12:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:12:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology References: <3B0E04B5.D7C7B626@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <014901c0e536$7abd60c0$1a914d0c@o3n4f8> Well said. I would'nt go to see this movie if they sent a limo to pick me up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > Kevin Pearson ... > > The equine proctodiae of today will continue to re-write history as they WISH > it had been. As a WW#2 (the one we won) combatant I often get sick and tired of > what Hollywood and their queers shove down our throats when they change history > .... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Lloyd: I think a WWII Memorial is not an apology but a fine tribute to all > > those who fought and died to keep this country free. What I do not > > understand are the WWII veterans who are opposed to the Memorial on that > > grassy patch of land between the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington > > Monument. I think it should be built on the most prominent property this > > country owns. As much as I respect the Iwo Jima Memorial, it is time this > > country wakes up and remembers what the "Greatest Generation" as a whole did > > for this country. I'd also like to see some kind of memorial for all those > > on the homefront who outproduced the Axis nations. > > > > As an aside, I am very pleased there has been such a media stir by the Pearl > > Harbor Movie. Yes, yes, there have been many movies about the event. I > > lost an uncle on the Arizona (Robert Pearson, Fireman Third Class), but I do > > not hear the media now saying it was a "suprise," or an "unprovoked" or > > "dastardly" attack, and that just irritates the hell out of me! > > Kevin > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > > >Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:07:25 -0400 > > > > > >I wonder why this Country should apologize to the Veterans of WW II. To > > >paraphase a remark often stated by a friend of mine, " We won that War." > > >A grateful Nation, for once, recognized the service of the men who fought > > >in > > >that Conflict, and the gratitude for their service and sacrifice has never > > >gone wanting, nor , unforgotten. The memory persists even into the 21st > > >Century. If you want to see a legacy, take a look around while you are > > >driving down the highway in your air conditioned car. Take a look at the > > >road signs announcing your entry into another State. See any border guards > > >asking for your "papers" ? Notice the buildings, and the homes. This > > >Country thanked the Veterans of World War Two with the GI Bill, Small > > >business loans, and the ability to own a home, and even a car; and a job > > >to > > >come home to. > > > > > >In my opinion the Veterans of World War Two deserve something better than a > > >"Memorial". A Memorial is an apology cast in marble honoring men who > > >risked > > >and sacrificed their lives for a Country that put them in harms way with > > >very little chance of success. Korean War Veterans deserve a Memorial. > > >Vietnam Veterans deserve a Memorial. They deserve an apology. > > >The Veterans of World War Two deserve a tribute, if enough have not yet > > >been > > >made, then I will support your efforts wholeheartedly. With all due > > >respect, > > >Lloyd Grant. ( my arse is grass for this, I reckon. That's how I feel > > >about the subject). > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 18:26:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:26:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops References: <37.15968d54.283fc3f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B0E95AD.263294D1@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Grafton Underwood would be in our traffic patterns no matter what! They were quite a disorganized lot and it got worse when they were assigned a Group Commander WHO HAD YET TO FLY COMBAT! Okay, Jack, I'm over 80 also and we do forget or mis-state things now and then, BUT, they cannot take away from us THAT WE WERE THERE .... Cheers ole Buddy... Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller, You are absolutely right. I intended to write 2 miles. The only > thing I can figure is I was sleepy. it was after midnight and I am over 80 > years old. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. No wonder the > Guys at Grafton-Underwood and Kimbolton were always in our traffic pattern > Keep an eye on me. The sherriff does. > Best Wishes, > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 21:52:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:52:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle crew on C-SPAN News Message-ID: <3B0E63AD.29552.1E9F09@localhost> The message below was sent to me from Walt Brown, editor of the 8th AF News. It looks like an interesting program: ----------- snip snip ------ { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}From CJ Roberts at the Heritage museum comes word that C- Span news will feature the hour-long presentation of the seminar recently held at the museum in Savannah at our 5th anniversary. It features the crew of the Memphis Belle with the story of its combat missions and its followup War Bond tour in the States. Also with a Q & A at the end. Bob Morgan, Belle pilot, was really surprisingly good at this conference - about 300 people attended. He was sharp, very direct and humorous to boot. Times scheduled for the showing on C-Span are: May 28, 3:15 pm Eastern time and 9:15pm EST. Also May 29 2:00 am EST and on C-SPAN II May 28 at 8:00 am EST. ---- snip snip -------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 21:26:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:26:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A valiant pony express rider Message-ID: <00ac01c0e558$fc3fdb60$048f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Maher, Jr. I hope you are monitoring the forum. Bill Dallas has just informed me that the tape you forwarded a few weeks ago has finally arrived. It is battered and has the riders blood stains all over it, but he got it through. Bill says that his last words, before he succumbed to his wounds, were: " Package for Bill Dallas, from Bill Maher, Jr., please sign here..." I think you are due an apology, Mr. Maher, I hope you will accept it. Lloyd Grant, ATC Molesworth Tape. ( a moment of silence, please, for a valiant Pony Express Rider)... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 23:53:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:53:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: [HeavyBombers] Clark Gable Missions Message-ID: <4f.c495294.28403c82@aol.com> Lloyd; I had an experince with the fog on day - I ran into rough air shortly after take off and lost about 1000 feet altitude and was lost as noone else was in sight. After checking all three points and finding no one I didnt know what to do next. About that time a plane was sighted going our way so I thought we would go and attach ourselves to it and check it out later but on checking that was our squadron and that was my position - so I pulled in and no one new the difference!!!! Clyde Henning. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri May 25 23:31:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:31:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: [HeavyBombers] Clark Gable Missions References: <4f.c495294.28403c82@aol.com> Message-ID: <003a01c0e56a$81781ac0$61184e0c@o3n4f8> Fait Accompli, mon amis ! God looks out for his errant children sometimes. I wonder how many others have similar stories hidden in their "medicine bags". thank you , Clyde. Lg.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: [HeavyBombers] Clark Gable Missions > Lloyd; > I had an experince with the fog on day - I ran into rough air shortly > after take off and lost about 1000 feet altitude and was lost as noone else > was in sight. After checking all three points and finding no one I didnt know > what to do next. About that time a plane was sighted going our way so I > thought we would go and attach ourselves to it and check it out later but on > checking that was our squadron and that was my position - so I pulled in > and no one new the difference!!!! > Clyde Henning. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 02:44:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:44:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: yup! so true. and this memorial day ,it should not be known by youth as the day the swimming pool opens. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 03:00:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A valiant pony express rider In-Reply-To: <00ac01c0e558$fc3fdb60$048f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <20010526020034.73626.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com> The U.S. Mail sometimes is an adventure in Texas. I'm glad it (FINALLY) made it through. "Cheers you all" --- Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Bill Maher, Jr. I hope you are monitoring the > forum. Bill Dallas has just > informed me that the tape you forwarded a few weeks > ago has finally arrived. > It is battered and has the riders blood stains all > over it, but he got it > through. Bill says that his last words, before he > succumbed to his wounds, > were: " Package for Bill Dallas, from Bill Maher, > Jr., please sign here..." > I think you are due an apology, Mr. Maher, I hope > you will accept it. > Lloyd Grant, ATC Molesworth Tape. ( a moment of > silence, please, for a > valiant Pony Express Rider)... > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 03:04:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:04:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] [www.washtimes.com] WWII Memorial Message-ID: <26.15eee343.28406911@aol.com> thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 03:07:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:07:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators and Radio Ops Message-ID: thankfully my pilot lonski always got us back safely From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 04:12:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:12:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute Message-ID: <002001c0e591$c187e060$728f4d0c@o3n4f8> As usual, I have yanked my jaws, postulated my unwelcome opinion, and tested the resolve of many who I consider , quite frankly, the best friends I have ever met in my life. Now, what can I do to repay this unselfish friendship you have given to a person you have never laid eyes on? What kind of Memorial is to be built anywhere that can explain what you all did, and accomplished? What Tribute is adequate? How can I thank every person that served? Please tell me how your Memorial should be designed, and what is a fitting material for the construction? How long, after 57 years will it take to build? And , if we get it built, do you promise on your word that you will stay here a while longer to visit it, and know how very much we remember what you did to deserve such an "expensive" TRIBUTE? If so, let's get off our younger derierres, sons and daughters. We need a leader, any volunteers? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 15:06:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:06:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! Message-ID: I was looking through my microfilm records today, looking for something else, and I came accross something of interest. It is a textual narrative of the Molesworth Video that has been passed around here. It seems to go around scene by scene in the video, and gives a description of the content. For one thing, it identifies some of the things that I was curious about, such as the air base flown over on the way from Battle Creek to Molesworth. It also identifies people seen in the video, at least early on in the video, as I haven't read very far into the thing. Anyway, I intend to try to type up the thing and post it here, but that may take a couple days, unless it is shorter than I thought (I've just looked at 2 frames on the microfilm, so I'm not sure how far it goes). I just wanted to report on what I found. More to come. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 16:06:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:06:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <84.167660cb.2841206a@cs.com> --part1_84.167660cb.2841206a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was considerable fanfare associated with the design and construction of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC. My recollection of the events leading to the building of the Vietnam Memorial was that this Memorial was meant not so much to honor the veterans of that conflict as to soothe the conscience of a nation that treated those returning from service in Southeast Asia with such disdain. This is merely my opinion. The Korean Memorial surfaced with much less ado. Once again, I encourage those wishing to send comments to the National Capital Planning Commission concerning the long overdue WWII Memorial to info@ncpc.gov. Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I will be thinking of all veterans this weekend, but most especially those of WWII. I put my flag in front of the house last night. It is the only one that I can see in this neighborhood. Best wishes to all, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_84.167660cb.2841206a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      There was considerable fanfare associated with the design and
construction of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC.  My recollection of
the events leading to the building of the Vietnam Memorial was that this
Memorial was meant not so much to honor the veterans of that conflict as to
soothe the conscience of a nation that treated those returning from service
in Southeast Asia with such disdain.  This is merely my opinion.  The Korean
Memorial surfaced with much less ado.
      Once again, I encourage those wishing to send comments to the National
Capital Planning Commission concerning the long overdue WWII Memorial to
info@ncpc.gov.
      Have a great Memorial Day weekend.  I will be thinking of all veterans
this weekend, but most especially those of WWII.  I put my flag in front of
the house last night.  It is the only one that I can see in this neighborhood.

Best wishes to all,       

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_84.167660cb.2841206a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 16:43:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:43:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I captured images from the microfilm, and started looking at the narrative I mentioned in the previous message, and now I'm a bit confused. The name of the narrative matches the title of the film in the video perfectly, and it seems to correspond pretty well to what I remember being on the first half of the video, but it doesn't have anything that would correspond to the R&R home shown on the second half, so that part is still not identified. Also, it seems to mention a few scenes that I don't remember being on the video. Anyway, rather than me trying to type it out, I uploaded the raw JPG files to the web. You can view them at http://wejones.ftdata.com/molesvid.html Even though it's not quite as detailed as I first thought, and doesn't seem to correspond exactly, as I had suggested, it is still a nice companion to the video, as it does identify many things seen on the video. Hope it is of interest. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 16:00:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:00:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology References: <84.167660cb.2841206a@cs.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0e5f4$8f402320$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Jenkins, I am serious. Bob Hand wrote me to say that he had been to ground breaking ceremonies for this Memorial to the veterans of WWII. Does this mean that the Memorial has already been planned and designed? Is construction underway? Obviously, I need to get updated and educated. What can my generation do to help expedite the completion of this very long overdue Tribute. I have already written to my State Reps and Senators and they seem to be in agreement that this Memorial is long past due. What is the next step? Is there a problem getting the funding? Is the Memorial to be publicly funded, or , are private funds needed? Your advice is very welcome, as are your comments. I am ready and willing to get off my duff and do what ever possible to get the job done. Thank you for the reminder about the flag. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > There was considerable fanfare associated with the design and > construction of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC. My recollection of > the events leading to the building of the Vietnam Memorial was that this > Memorial was meant not so much to honor the veterans of that conflict as to > soothe the conscience of a nation that treated those returning from service > in Southeast Asia with such disdain. This is merely my opinion. The Korean > Memorial surfaced with much less ado. > Once again, I encourage those wishing to send comments to the National > Capital Planning Commission concerning the long overdue WWII Memorial to > info@ncpc.gov. > Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I will be thinking of all veterans > this weekend, but most especially those of WWII. I put my flag in front of > the house last night. It is the only one that I can see in this neighborhood. > > Best wishes to all, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 16:45:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:45:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! References: Message-ID: <002601c0e5fa$e55c73c0$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, how did you manage to find this? You are absolutely right, it does make a good adjunct to the tape. Go have a look, folks. Nice work, Mr. Jones. Grant. (That rest home, or what ever, stumped Harry Goebrecht too. Anybody else recognize it?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! > > > I captured images from the microfilm, and started looking at the > narrative I mentioned in the previous message, and now I'm a bit > confused. The name of the narrative matches the title of the film in > the video perfectly, and it seems to correspond pretty well to what I > remember being on the first half of the video, but it doesn't have > anything that would correspond to the R&R home shown on the > second half, so that part is still not identified. Also, it seems to > mention a few scenes that I don't remember being on the video. > Anyway, rather than me trying to type it out, I uploaded the raw > JPG files to the web. You can view them at > http://wejones.ftdata.com/molesvid.html > > Even though it's not quite as detailed as I first thought, and doesn't > seem to correspond exactly, as I had suggested, it is still a nice > companion to the video, as it does identify many things seen on > the video. > > Hope it is of interest. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 18:41:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:41:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial Message-ID: --part1_ea.15fc407a.284144e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Let me describe what I have done and why concerning the WWII Memorial in Washington, DC. You can then determine what you want to do. I have contributed nominal amounts to the construction of the National WWII Memorial since the concept of a Memorial was advanced several years ago. I do this primarily because of the significance of the conflict and the fact that both my Dad and Uncle served during WWII. Of course, Dad served with the 303rd. My uncle was a gunner on B24s in Italy and was credited with shooting down a Bf109. Unfortunately, my Uncle passed away several years ago. Also, I have attended a number of funerals of WWII veterans on my wife's side of the family. Ironically, one of the deceased who served in the Pacific died on August 6, 1999 (Hiroshima Anniversary). It is as though these veterans are passing before our very eyes on a final 'Pass in Review'. Time is now of the essence. The design of the Memorial has been finalized for quite some time and a groundbreaking ceremony was held on November 11, 2000. Due to a technicality the design approval has been questioned and construction of the Memorial has been delayed. This technicality is that one of the Chairman of the National Capital Planning Commission continued to serve on the commission after the expiration of his term. In the past this was not a problem, but for some reason it is now an issue. You now know as much as I do. It is difficult for me to keep track of events 3000 miles away in the other Washington and I do not pretend to understand all that happens inside the Beltway. I would recommend that you email any concerns that you have about the delays in constructing the WWII Memorial to the National Capital Planning Commission at info@ncpc.gov. The time for debating is over. It is time to start building. If you want, you may join the effort to build the Memorial by contacting the National World War II Memorial American Battle Monuments Commission P. O. Box 96766 Washington, DC 20090-6766 I am certain that with the delays construction costs are increasing and lawyers must be paid. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_ea.15fc407a.284144e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,
      Let me describe what I have done and why concerning the WWII Memorial
in Washington, DC.  You can then determine what you want to do.  I have
contributed nominal amounts to the construction of the National WWII Memorial
since the concept of a Memorial was advanced several years ago.  I do this
primarily because of the significance of the conflict and the fact that both
my Dad and Uncle served during WWII.  Of course, Dad served with the 303rd.  
My uncle was a gunner on B24s in Italy and was credited with shooting down a
Bf109.  Unfortunately, my Uncle passed away several years ago.  Also, I have
attended a number of funerals of WWII veterans on my wife's side of the
family.  Ironically, one of the deceased who served in the Pacific died on
August 6, 1999 (Hiroshima Anniversary).  It is as though these veterans are
passing before our very eyes on a final 'Pass in Review'.  Time is now of the
essence.
      The design of the Memorial has been finalized for quite some time and
a groundbreaking ceremony was held on November 11, 2000.  Due to a
technicality the design approval has been questioned and construction of the
Memorial has been delayed.  This technicality is that one of the Chairman of
the National Capital Planning Commission continued to serve on the commission
after the expiration of his term.  In the past this was not a problem, but
for some reason it is now an issue.  You now know as much as I do.  It is
difficult for me to keep track of events 3000 miles away in the other
Washington and I do not pretend to understand all that happens inside the
Beltway.
      I would recommend that you email any concerns that you have about the
delays in constructing the WWII Memorial to the National Capital Planning
Commission at info@ncpc.gov.  The time for debating is over.  It is time to
start building.  If you want, you may join the effort to build the Memorial
by contacting the

            National World War II Memorial
            American Battle Monuments Commission
            P. O. Box 96766
            Washington, DC   20090-6766

I am certain that with the delays construction costs are increasing and
lawyers must be paid.


Regards,
    

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_ea.15fc407a.284144e3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 18:01:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:01:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute Message-ID: <00ab01c0e605$8001cb00$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Jenkins, and fellow members of this forum, I am getting my education on the Memorial. I am bitterly disappointed in myself for not getting involved sooner. I hope that "late" is better than "never". The Memorial is funded strictly by means of private contributions. $170 million has been raised for the construction, but donations are still needed to finance the long term maintenance and upkeep. I am donating the money I had earmarked to purchase the CD rom from the 303rd BGA. ( I hope some are left when I send my check later on). Here is a link for anyone else of my generation who would like to contribute. I hope this is not in violation of Garys rules. http://www.wwiimemorial.com/donorprograms/ Go to : info@ncpc.gov to get educated friends. My personal thanks to Mr. Jenkins Sr. for getting me off my backside, and to all the Veterans here who have put up with my inane rhetoric on this subject. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 18:06:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:06:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial References: Message-ID: <00b401c0e606$288a04e0$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> John, I am with you all the way. We need to get the ball rolling. As you said, time is now of the essence. I am sorry I am late getting on the bus, thanks for waiting for me. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial > Lloyd, > Let me describe what I have done and why concerning the WWII Memorial > in Washington, DC. You can then determine what you want to do. I have > contributed nominal amounts to the construction of the National WWII Memorial > since the concept of a Memorial was advanced several years ago. I do this > primarily because of the significance of the conflict and the fact that both > my Dad and Uncle served during WWII. Of course, Dad served with the 303rd. > My uncle was a gunner on B24s in Italy and was credited with shooting down a > Bf109. Unfortunately, my Uncle passed away several years ago. Also, I have > attended a number of funerals of WWII veterans on my wife's side of the > family. Ironically, one of the deceased who served in the Pacific died on > August 6, 1999 (Hiroshima Anniversary). It is as though these veterans are > passing before our very eyes on a final 'Pass in Review'. Time is now of the > essence. > The design of the Memorial has been finalized for quite some time and > a groundbreaking ceremony was held on November 11, 2000. Due to a > technicality the design approval has been questioned and construction of the > Memorial has been delayed. This technicality is that one of the Chairman of > the National Capital Planning Commission continued to serve on the commission > after the expiration of his term. In the past this was not a problem, but > for some reason it is now an issue. You now know as much as I do. It is > difficult for me to keep track of events 3000 miles away in the other > Washington and I do not pretend to understand all that happens inside the > Beltway. > I would recommend that you email any concerns that you have about the > delays in constructing the WWII Memorial to the National Capital Planning > Commission at info@ncpc.gov. The time for debating is over. It is time to > start building. If you want, you may join the effort to build the Memorial > by contacting the > > National World War II Memorial > American Battle Monuments Commission > P. O. Box 96766 > Washington, DC 20090-6766 > > I am certain that with the delays construction costs are increasing and > lawyers must be paid. > > > Regards, > > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 19:03:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:03:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial Message-ID: <000e01c0e60e$37688060$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> A promise made, is a debt unpaid. Cheers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Customer Service at WWII Memorial" To: Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: Your Donation for WWII Memorial > New Page 1Thank you for your contribution! > > Please find below your donation information as it appears in our records. If you need to get in touch with us about your donation, send an e-mail to custsvc@wwiimemorial.com(or just reply to this message)or call 1-800-639-4WW2. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > E-mail address: palidin@worldnet.att.net > > Ship to: Lloyd J H Grant, From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 20:04:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:04:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just played back the video, while reading the narrative. No doubt that this was intended to be a sound track or something for the movie. It was following it pretty well, right up to the end of page 5, where they start talking about the start of a mission. At this point, the video we have goes off into something else, ie tents, and the rest home, etc, and there is no correspondence to the narrative anymore. Made me wonder if somehow they switched reels up at the Nat Archives or something, and the wrong reel got copied, so I looked up the description of the film at the NAIL web page. I've copied their description below, but the short of it is that their description agrees with the video that we have, so apparently the second half of the movie got lost before it got to the archives, which means that it is probably lost forever. I wonder if Clarke Gable is responsible for canibolizing it? (Only joking.) Anyway, the material that should have been at the end sounded very interesting. Too bad. NAIL Description of the video: Control Number NWDNM(m)-342-USAF-49647 Media Motion picture films Descr. Level Item Record Group 342 Series USAF Item 49647 Title THE 303RD BOMBARDMENT GROUP, ENGLAND Coverage Dates 1942-1943 Format silent, unedited, color. Creating Org. United States Air Force. Shot List Covers B-17 footage including aerial views of formation and facilities used by the 3O3rd Bomb Group. Reel 1: 1' Title: THE 303RD BOMBARDMENT GROUP-THE MEN AND THEIR BIRD OF WAR, OUTSTANDING IN THE FIELD OF BATTLE 6' Pan shots of B-l7Fs parked as seen from control tower and from behind aircraft. 40' Names and artwork on B-17s, names include HUNGA-DUNGA, GARBAGE, ZOMBIE, JERRY JINX, SKY WOLF, THUMPER, IDAHO POTATOE PEELER, HELL CAT, THE 8 BALL, THE DUCHESS, ONE O'CLOCK JUMP, THE DEVIL HIMSELF, BAD CHECK, DELTA REBEL NO 2, KNOCKOUT DROPPER, LADY FAIRWEATHER, THE GREEN HORNET, YAHOODI, and LEAPIN LIZ intercut with shots of unidentified crews and ground crews. 126' Three B-l7Fs taking off to left. 151' AMCUs and AMSs B-l7Fs in flight, names of aircraft include GARBAGE 172' AVs of English Channel, coast and over land as seen from B-17. 218' Avs of unidentified air base. 238' Pan shots of hangars and other buildings. 252' Three British soldiers beside machine gun on tripod--one soldier pointing upward. 257' Quonset huts. 274' Airman working on B-l7F engine. 286' MS B-l7F taxiing to right. 289' HA shots of B-l7Fs including THE 8 BALL and KNOCKOUT DROPPER taxiing to left. 308' HA shot of A-20C taxiing to left. 314' LS B-l7s parked near runway. 320' FVs B-l7s taking off. 345' A-20C taking off to right. 351' AVs rural England. 358' Fifteen B-l7s in formation. 368' AVs B-l7s in formation, includes contrails of formation. 451' B-l7F HUNGA-DUNGA with right lending gear collapsed. 468' Tent city, buildings, castle, English manor house, and other structures, also shows recreational activities such as swimming and croquet in progress. 821' Total footage in reel. Record Type/Genre motion pictures General Note Quality: Good, Basic: Color Print ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 23:19:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:19:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] why are we here? Message-ID: <3B0FC97E.12789.87CAA9@localhost> Jack Rencher asked me to forward the following to the list: --------------- Why are we here? A lot of good luck? A lot of skill? Being assigned to a crew with a good Pilot? good Navigator? Good gunners? or even a good copilot? What about those skilled and dedicated mechanics who worked all night in the rain and fog and cold on a ladder with a flashlight in their month to have the birds airworthy in the morning? Some lone and unknown fighter pilot who came alone out of the sun and attacked 4 FW 109s that were about to attack us? The Guy who packed our chute so it opened when we pulled the rip cord? Being in the right place at the right time or better put maybe not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you remember what is was like to comeback from a 48 hour pass and dread to open the door to your hut and see which Buddies cloths are missing? Do you remember what it was like to get up from your sleep to watch the formations come back to see if your bird was in the formation? If you read this, fate was good to you. You are one of the lucky ones but we have more duty to perform. Sometime during this Memorial Holiday but preferably at 3:00 p.m. (1500 hrs) Memorial Day stop what you are doing and bow your head and give Thanks in your own private way for your life, this great country and those who gave their very lives to keep it that way. You might also send a note, give a call or go see some old buddy that is not so spry any more or to his widow or orphan. Glad to have been there. Glad to still be here. Glad to have you for a friend. Glad to be able to write and send this to you. Jack Rencher ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 00:03:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:03:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial Message-ID: <74.ade5fbf.28419041@cs.com> --part1_74.ade5fbf.28419041_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Welcome aboard. It is better late than never. I cannot promise that the ride will be smooth. By the way, I am the younger of the two John Jenkins. Dad does not participate in '303rd Talk', but has been a member of the 303rdBGA for many decades. He is pictured in the George C. Newton Crew Photo (427 BS) in the 303rd web site. I always include my middle initial in this forum to avoid any confusion. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_74.ade5fbf.28419041_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,
      Welcome aboard.  It is better late than never.  I cannot promise that
the ride will be smooth.  By the way, I am the younger of the two John
Jenkins.  Dad does not participate in '303rd Talk', but has been a member of
the 303rdBGA for many decades.  He is pictured in the George C. Newton Crew
Photo (427 BS) in the 303rd web site.  I always include my middle initial in
this forum to avoid any confusion.

Regards,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_74.ade5fbf.28419041_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 00:20:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:20:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pearl Harbor Message-ID: The new Pearl Harbor movie, which has been getting so much criticism, has at least given one benificial result. Tonight the history channel has 3 hours of Pearl Harbor documentaries, and tomorrow night a 1 hour History channel show and a 2 hour NBC show, all on Pearl Harbor. Funniest thing was I think the New York times, which gave a raving review for this great movie about a love story set in the environment of the Pearl Harbor attack. It went on for several lines, and then said the name is From Here to Eternity. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat May 26 23:42:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:42:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial References: <74.ade5fbf.28419041@cs.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0e635$2b1dc3c0$0d874d0c@o3n4f8> John, I have been known to play the role of Devils Advocate at times in order to provoke a response. Quite a few other times, I have just been an ignorant jerk. In tribute to my friends here, I know I offended many with my comments about the Memorial, but not a one of them condemned me for making them; tho I am sure more than a few would like to have Kicked my backside counter-clockwise. Whether, in this instance, I was trying to play the Devils Advocate, or just being a stupid jerk doesn't really matter. Your patience and persistance, and courtesy got me off my complaisant hindquarters. We have work to do, sir. What is next? Let's get the ball rolling. With gratitude and respect, sir. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial > Lloyd, > Welcome aboard. It is better late than never. I cannot promise that > the ride will be smooth. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 01:46:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:46:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! Message-ID: <8b.7324796.2841a873@aol.com> bill jones, thanks for the flight data via maxwell. spec. generous effort for us. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 01:51:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:51:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: jenkins advise him promptly. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 01:57:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:57:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial Message-ID: <9b.159eaf37.2841aaf8@aol.com> thanks jenkins and i sincerely urge all that monitor this site to follow jenkins info to the letter. i understand a bill was introduced in congress to eliminate all these delaqys. passed house. last i heard ,but get at this fully and wholeheartedly. i as many others of you have contributed as has many generous corporate gifts. got to get it done ,because over 1000 of us wwii then you youth are dying daily. gracious thanks if all would do this promptly and urge families ,friends, work/retiree associates church memmbers to join effort. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 02:00:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:00:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute Message-ID: <76.ad50ef8.2841ab94@aol.com> lloyd ,get a cup for donations ,but do order the cd rom. you will benefit. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 02:18:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:18:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video...narrative! Message-ID: <60.ed8375d.2841afd7@aol.com> thanks again bill jones From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 02:21:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:21:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] why are we here? Message-ID: <8b.732479a.2841b0b1@aol.com> jack ,so very succintly said and gary ,usal steady info. lets all of us hear say a prayer for each and others at 3 p.m. cheers to all. thanks good lord for my being . spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 02:34:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:34:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute References: <76.ad50ef8.2841ab94@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0e64d$25f298e0$5b904d0c@o3n4f8> Spec, that was for "effect". I did spend the money for the donation, but I fully intend to get a copy of that CD. Times are tight for me just now, but "Zooie" is the only Wolf at the door. ( she is my co-pilot. A finer German Shepard does not exist !). Cheers. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute > lloyd ,get a cup for donations ,but do order the cd rom. you will benefit. > spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 02:36:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:36:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial References: <9b.159eaf37.2841aaf8@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0e64d$7a1460c0$5b904d0c@o3n4f8> Like a dog shaking a rag, Spec. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] National WWII Memorial > thanks jenkins and i sincerely urge all that monitor this site to follow > jenkins info to the letter. i understand a bill was introduced in congress to > eliminate all these delaqys. passed house. last i heard ,but get at this > fully and wholeheartedly. i as many others of you have contributed as has > many generous corporate gifts. got to get it done ,because over 1000 of us > wwii then you youth are dying daily. gracious thanks if all would do this > promptly and urge families ,friends, work/retiree associates church memmbers > to join effort. spec > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 03:06:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:06:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] While we are remembering... Message-ID: <003101c0e651$a7dd1fc0$5b904d0c@o3n4f8> Monday is Memorial Day, 2001. I am aboard with both feet, and my considerable posterior in the effort to get the WWII Memorial built. Don't doubt it. While we are hanging out our Flags, and remembering please reserve a moment in your silent prayers for some of these American men and women also: Native Americans, Black Americans, and Japanese Americans, and other AMERICANS as you may see fit to remember. I will leave it to your private thoughts as to how you deal with that tiny reminder. After this, I am retiring from the "proselytizing" business. ( hold the applause, please.) Fellows, I reckon " Thank you" is getting to be a bit over used as a sentiment of appreciation, so let me just say this: THANK YOU, and thank you, and, uh let me rephrase this, Thank You. HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY FRIENDS. GOD BLESS YOU ALL. LLOYD GRANT. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 04:19:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:19:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: <38.16c9634d.2841cc5f@cs.com> --part1_38.16c9634d.2841cc5f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, I have a special place in my heart for you. I believe that all of Lloyd's concerns and questions about the WWII Memorial have been put to rest. Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I will be thinking of you all. Best wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_38.16c9634d.2841cc5f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,
      I have a special place in my heart for you.  I believe that all of
Lloyd's concerns and questions about the WWII Memorial have been put to rest.
 Have a great Memorial Day weekend.  I will be thinking of you all.

Best wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_38.16c9634d.2841cc5f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 06:06:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:06:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology Message-ID: thanks, hope others who return to net after holiday will pick up on it and act promptly. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 06:07:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:07:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] While we are remembering... Message-ID: <7c.1665fa38.2841e5ac@aol.com> and at 3p.m. pause whereever to pray or moment of praise on memorial day. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 06:09:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:09:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute Message-ID: <99.156ba674.2841e5f0@aol.com> understand. praise you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 05:17:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:17:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology References: <38.16c9634d.2841cc5f@cs.com> Message-ID: <004601c0e663$f5057420$50874d0c@o3n4f8> Never were any, John. My dad was in the 427th early on also. Viet Nam really screwed up a lot of good people. Different message, different times. Hard to understand, perhaps. As I said, I am done proselytizing. Lets get on with the job at hand. Best wishes to you and yours, John. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A Tribute, or, an Apology > Spec, > I have a special place in my heart for you. I believe that all of > Lloyd's concerns and questions about the WWII Memorial have been put to rest. > Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I will be thinking of you all. > > Best wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 16:34:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:34:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <31.1566bc5d.28427873@aol.com> --part1_31.1566bc5d.28427873_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: I hope you all have a great Memorial Day weekend. This weekend is for you veterans and those that gave their life so we can live as good as we do. Thank you all. I know my family know what you all did. We do remember. Thanks again. I keep trying to get my flag up for you guys, every time I have it up, its starts raining again and I have to take it down. Anyway, I hope you all enjoy the weekend. Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_31.1566bc5d.28427873_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
   I hope you all have a great Memorial Day weekend.  This weekend is for
you veterans and those that gave their life
so we can live as good as we do.  Thank you all.  I know my family know what
you all did.  We do remember. Thanks again.  I keep trying to get my flag up
for you guys, every time I have it up, its starts raining again and I have to
take it down.  Anyway, I hope you all enjoy the weekend. Take care.
                                                                             
                                    Brooklyn Bill --part1_31.1566bc5d.28427873_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 22:06:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:06:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: why are we here? Message-ID: <67.149f9e91.2842c65a@aol.com> --part1_67.149f9e91.2842c65a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_67.149f9e91.2842c65a_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (rly-ye04.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.201]) by air-ye02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.37) with ESMTP; Sun, 27 May 2001 15:16:24 -0400 Received: from mail.cabonet.net.mx (tntmex1-1-161.uninet.net.mx [200.38.128.161]) by rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Sun, 27 May 2001 15:16:00 -0400 Received: from www ([192.168.6.13]) by mail.cabonet.net.mx (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4RK5wW19333 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 14:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <003a01c0e6e1$fc0fd520$0d06a8c0@www.cromwell.com.mx.bajasuft.net> From: "George and Edme'e Emerson" To: Subject: Re: why are we here? Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:19:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Nice message Jack. I have forwarded it on to many of my friends, and know that they will enjoy. I will be in Boise last part of July, and the Disabled Veterans there are in charge of me receiving the purple heart, after 56 years. The date is July 30th. Don't know whether the 303rd should know, you might check. George Emerson -----Original Message----- From: George Emerson To: jorgeyee@cabonet.net.mx Date: Sunday, May 27, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Fwd: why are we here? > > > >>From: Jprencher@aol.com >>To: Fortdriver@aol.com, Coxbije@aol.com, ED303fsra@aol.com, >>DICKBOWLER@aol.com, ald@derbytech.com, Dustylaine@aol.com, >>edmiller@pldi.net, jorgeyee@hotmail.com, >>warrenburke@worldnet.att.net, EWG303NAV@aol.com, Pilot8thAF@aol.com, >>RGrish20@aol.com, wheller@ibm.net, kdmcalister@msn.com, >>glm@303rdbga.com, glm@xmission.com, p51@1usa.com >>Subject: why are we here? >>Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:09:23 EDT >> >>Why are we here? A lot of good luck? A lot of skill? Being assigned to a >>crew with a good Pilot? good Navigator? Good gunners? or even a good >>copilot? >>What about those skilled and dedicated mechanics who worked all night in >>the >>rain and fog and cold on a ladder with a flashlight in their month to have >>the birds airworthy in the morning? Some lone and unknown fighter pilot who >>came alone out of the sun and attacked 4 FW 109s that were about to attack >>us? The Guy who packed our chute so it opened when we pulled the rip cord? >>Being in the right place at the right time or better put maybe not being in >>the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you remember what is was like to >>comeback from a 48 hour pass and dread to open the door to your hut and see >>which Buddies cloths are missing? Do you remember what it was like to get >>up >>from your sleep to watch the formations come back to see if your bird was >>in >>the formation? >> >> If you read this, fate was good to you. You are one of the lucky ones >>but we have more duty to perform. Sometime during this Memorial Holiday but >>preferably at 3:00 p.m. (1500 hrs) Memorial Day stop what you are doing and >>bow your head and give Thanks in your own private way for your life, this >>great country and those who gave their very lives to keep it that way. You >>might also send a note, give a call or go see some old buddy that is not so >>spry any more or to his widow or orphan. >>Glad to have been there. Glad to still be here. Glad to have you for a >>friend. Glad to be able to write and send this to you. >> Jack Rencher > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > --part1_67.149f9e91.2842c65a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 22:21:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:21:08 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] George Emerson Message-ID: <10d.874c9f.2842c9c4@aol.com> George is a member of the 303rd Bomb Group Assn. As I best remember he was a tail gunner. His plane was shot in two or exploded and the tail section was falling separate from the rest of the plane. As it fell, either because of or in spite of centrifugal force he was able to bail out of the tail section. I think he was the only member of his crew who survived I know him well. He is a fine young man. He appears to be about 25 years old. I hope some of you find my forwarded E-mail about him of interest. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 22:29:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:29:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: why are we here? Message-ID: Thanks George and Congratulations. I will try to be there. Its nice to hear from you. I have Notified appropriate people from the 303rd. I'm sure your experience would be very interesting to many. See you in Boise. Can you make it to the Reunion this September? Best Wishes George Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun May 27 23:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:20:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day Message-ID: <003201c0e6fb$3605bf60$7ad50b3f@default> I had a speaking assignment in Church today, and the choir led off with 'America the Beautiful'. Somewhere someone picking the music was aware of what day it is. I got up and thanked the choir not only on their singing but on their choice of songs and the fact that Memorial Day is here to celebrate the fact that we are still here to celebrate. And I mean celebrate, thru tears and/or laughter (mostly both), all who returned and all who didn't, most importantly, anyone and everyone who laid their life on the line for God and Country. And then I quoted SPEC "and this is Memorial Day ,it should not be known by youth as the day the swimming pool opens." (Got a pretty good laugh) My Memorial to my fathers before me and to all of you is the standards in which I raise my children. To have faith in God and love for their Country, and respect for their fellow men. I salute all of you and wish you all the Best. Bill Hoyt son of Otis A Hoyt/nav 360th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 01:42:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memorial Day Message-ID: hoyt. thanks for the notiriety. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 07:53:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:53:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] George Emerson References: <10d.874c9f.2842c9c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B11F5D7.23104919@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... I second your wonderful words about George Emerson .... quite a fine "young" man. The type you would like to take home for your daughter ... in the old days. Happy Memorial Day old buddy! Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > George is a member of the 303rd Bomb Group Assn. As I best remember he was a > tail gunner. His plane was shot in two or exploded and the tail section was > falling separate from the rest of the plane. As it fell, either because of > or in spite of centrifugal force he was able to bail out of the tail section. > I think he was the only member of his crew who survived > I know him well. He is a fine young man. He appears to be about 25 > years old. I hope some of you find my forwarded E-mail about him of interest. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 08:23:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:23:44 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] search for Memphis Tot Message-ID: <009101c0e747$216d9d60$7309f4cc@e0y0k4> Hello all, I recently received this posting on the 91st BG Ring. If anyone recognizes any names or info, please contact me. Thanks. Gordy. ************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 cell 250-537-6706 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************** In a message dated 5/19/2001 2:32:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HKious1922 writes: << Subj: (no subject) Date: 5/19/2001 2:32:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: HKious1922 To: B17banta Dear Mike: I am searching for six survivors of a crash on February 4, 1943. They were assigned to the 303rd BG, 427th squadron. The pilot was Captain Lloyd R. Cole and he died of wounds. The plane was named Memphis Tot. Their plane crashed in the Zuider Zee, Holland. The survivors were rescued by Dutch fishermen. The Dutch people in the area are searching for them and they have asked me for help. The names of the surviving crewmen are Captain Edward Bryant, bombardier; 1st Lt. Robert Driggs, Navigator; T/Sgt. David Purington, Engineer; T/Sgt. G. D. Miller, Radio (now deceased); S/Sgt. A. Witte, Ball Turret. I have contacted the historian of the 303rd and he has no information as to their current addresses. Do you know if their is a web page for the POW camps such as Stalag Luft III, Stalag Luft 1, or any other POW camp where I might inquire for information about these crewmen. Any clue that you can provide may be helpful. Thanks for any help you can provide. Harold Kious >> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 15:00:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:00:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] search for Memphis Tot Message-ID: There is an enormous volume on Stalag Luft III compiled by Arnold A.Wright that might supply the information you're looking for. His last location was in Benton, AR, but I haven't contacted him for about 5 years (a lot can happen in that time!!) It contains an incredible amount of info on hundreds of POWs. The info is not in alphabetical order or I'd be able to find your missing party....but I'll take a long look when I'm not hounded by making a living...one of those things. Hope you locate your missing person. Cheers, Bob Hand, 303/360. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 18:20:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:20:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: --part1_f9.a8e25f3.2843e2ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: Wishing all of you a great holiday. Thanks to our veterans for all they have done for us and this great country. I have just finish the book "Wing Ding" by Gene Carson. I did enjoy reading it. I think everyone will. It should be added to your must reading list. Brooklyn Bill --part1_f9.a8e25f3.2843e2ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:

    Wishing all of you a great holiday.  Thanks to our veterans for all they
have done for us and this great country.

    I have just finish the book "Wing Ding" by Gene Carson. I did enjoy
reading it.
I think everyone will.  It should be added to your must reading list.
                                                                             
    Brooklyn Bill
--part1_f9.a8e25f3.2843e2ef_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 20:59:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:59:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] letters from POWs Message-ID: I was looking through my microfilm again (sorry). This time I found several post cards apparently written by POWs. These were apparently letters that never got delivered for one reason or another, and ended up at the 303rd. They are very difficult to read due to the poor quality of the microfilm, but I pulled a couple names off a couple of them, including 2Lt Merlin Cornish, Lt Ed Bryant, Paul Blank. All of these matched names on the 303rd roster. There was another one that I think I identified, but the name had a "B/O" indicator on the roster instead of POW, and I wasn't sure what that referred to. Anyway, it seemed sad if these letters never got delivered. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 18:07:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:07:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial References: <74.ade5fbf.28419041@cs.com> Message-ID: <001801c0e798$a5cd14e0$78184e0c@o3n4f8> John, I see in todays news that the President has just "signed into Law" a bill allowing the Memorial to be built. Now I am confused ( pretty easy for me). I thought that this had already been passed into Law. What am I missing? From what I have read about the plans this project is going to take a lot of time to build. Is it being built for the Veterans of WW II to see, or for their sons and daughters and grandchildren to admire? What do we need to do NOW to get this moving? ( Sorry, John, but you are stuck with me now, pard. I am in the circuit, but not yet on the "ball".) Will appreciate your advice soonest possible. Thank you, sir. Grant. on board for the duration, what ever the ride brings). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial > Lloyd, > Welcome aboard. It is better late than .never I cannot promise that > the ride will be smooth From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 18:29:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:29:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <002101c0e79b$b4351a20$78184e0c@o3n4f8> I will add this to Bills' comment, Gene Carson is another one of the finest men I have had the privilege to meet on the internet. top drawer individual, and a compelling and gifted writer. ( and, no, Bill and I don't get a commission for promoting the book.) But, no more books in my library until the Memorial is built and my buddies tell me they have touched it. every spare dime, and there aint many, is going toward the effort to get this Memorial built.). Lloyd Grant. " a promise made, is a debt unpaid..." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > Hi To All: > > Wishing all of you a great holiday. Thanks to our veterans for all they > have done for us and this great country. > > I have just finish the book "Wing Ding" by Gene Carson. I did enjoy > reading it. > I think everyone will. It should be added to your must reading list. > > Brooklyn Bill > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 00:45:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:45:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Yo, Brooklyn Bill.....thanks for your kind words and we wish the same for you. Born way back in '24 in Brooklyn on Howard Ave., opp Bushwick Hospital, where my mother was a nurse. Unfortunately she died of pneumonia in '33 and kid brother and I spent our growing up years in Bklyn's biggest orphanage...how's that for a dynamic start? Good wishes and cheers....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 01:07:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:07:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <002201c0e7d3$549d8920$4c09f4cc@e0y0k4> You did pretty damn good, I'd say. >From what I've learned of you on the net, and in many posts back and forth, you turned into a dynamic individual. Salute' Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > Yo, Brooklyn Bill.....thanks for your kind words and we wish the same for > you. Born way back in '24 in Brooklyn on Howard Ave., opp Bushwick Hospital, > where my mother was a nurse. Unfortunately she died of pneumonia in '33 and > kid brother and I spent our growing up years in Bklyn's biggest > orphanage...how's that for a dynamic start? Good wishes and cheers....Bob > Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon May 28 23:00:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:00:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <002201c0e7d3$549d8920$4c09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <002e01c0e7c1$a2f76300$4a1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Second what Gordy said, Mr. Hand. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > You did pretty damn good, I'd say. > From what I've learned of you on the net, and in many posts back and forth, > you turned into a dynamic individual. > Salute' > Gordy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) > > > > Yo, Brooklyn Bill.....thanks for your kind words and we wish the same for > > you. Born way back in '24 in Brooklyn on Howard Ave., opp Bushwick > Hospital, > > where my mother was a nurse. Unfortunately she died of pneumonia in '33 > and > > kid brother and I spent our growing up years in Bklyn's biggest > > orphanage...how's that for a dynamic start? Good wishes and cheers....Bob > > Hand > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 06:00:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:00:39 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators & Radio Ops References: <20010525160622.865EA53794@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B132CF6.D0BD8EF5@uswest.net> Jack Rencher - Many thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions about Navs & ROs. Your information cleared up several things for me. It also raised a couple more questions. You say that ADF wasn't used much. What, then, was the principal navigation aid used? I presume that primary navigation was done by the lead ship, but did the other navs keep track of their course, too? If not, were they principally gunners, like the bombardiers in the trailing ships? You mention 1,000-plane formations, so I presume you're talking about later in the war. In Spring, '43, the 8th AF was doing well to put 100 Fortresses up at a time. I wonder if the navigation and radio procedures were much different then. Bill Jones - Thanks for the comments on Bunchers and Splashers. Were they different beacons, one used for assembly and one for returning? That's my guess. Jim Walling - Too bad one of those ROs who was keeping the sandwiches warm didn't put two and two together and figure out that the radio waves warmed food. He would have been a millionaire! To Everyone - You're all in my thoughts today, WWII through Desert Storm. The country owes you so very much. Best to all, Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 07:00:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 02:00:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators & Radio Ops Message-ID: Mike, Let my clarify the use of the ADF. We did use it a bit to home to a station. and we could use it to fly away from a station. We used it every morning to home to our buncher beacon which was 19 &1/2 miles away from Molesworth.ItI seemed to me most pilots did not use it to shoot a fix by tuning in to two or three stations and getting a location (Fix) Where the lines crossed. With 3 stations you got a triangle, hopefully quite small. Then do it again in an hour and you had your course. You then could compare that with your DR location and get your wind. This is the procedure we didn't use much. I suppose it would be more useful over oceans. The lead Navigator did the navigating for the squadron. The navigators in the rest of the planes were supposed to watch the headings, altitudes, air speeds and figure the ground speed and winds aloft and keep track of were we were. This was one hard job as we changed course quite often. It was very important to always know our location so if we got shot up and had to fly home alone we could. It was no problem to fly straight home but there were areas of heavy flak we didn't want to fly over. We knew where most of them were if we knew exactly where we were we could go around them. If we couldn't see the ground the lead plane could use DR (Dead Reckoning) Gee Box, ADF.Radar would pick up towns and water, lakes, rivers, coast lines,etc. If we could see the ground,Pillotage was our best navigation system. The forests over there were distinct shapes and to me our most reliable land marks other than maybe coast lines, rivers and cities. After you had about 35 missions behind you you knew the area pretty well if you could see it I don't know much about 1943. I was in Cadets then and Cadets didn't know anything and we didn't even know that for sure. Hopefully this will answer your questions and someone else might not agree with me and give you some different answers. How about it Hal? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 07:20:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 02:20:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators & Radio Ops Message-ID: wel done rencher. where were you in cadet training? i was in greensboro,n.c. , st. vincents college in latrobe,pa then santa ana ,calif. kingman,az. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 07:31:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 02:31:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial Message-ID: the law signed disposes of all legal and municipal. commissions and boards hearings and or delays of project. some talk of taking to that presidential deciding court. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 01:45:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:45:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial References: Message-ID: <001a01c0e7d8$9f1ffdc0$041b4e0c@o3n4f8> Spec, What a " cock-up" as my English cousins would say. Thirty months to build it, and the "Scenic ether" of the Capital is threatened. May be these " sweetie-pants" should envision a Swastika over the dome of the White House etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum... Grant. ( keep the pressure on.) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial > the law signed disposes of all legal and municipal. commissions and boards > hearings and or delays of project. some talk of taking to that presidential > deciding court. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 12:51:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 07:51:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial Message-ID: <37.15c3fa3f.2844e734@cs.com> --part1_37.15c3fa3f.2844e734_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, As a result of Congressional action the planned hearing by the National Capital Planning Commission in June has been cancelled. This hearing was to intended to reconsider the previous WWII Memorial design and site approvals. It appears at this time that everything is back on track with construction scheduled to begin July. This information is available at www.wwiimemorial.com. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_37.15c3fa3f.2844e734_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,
      As a result of Congressional action the planned hearing by the
National Capital Planning Commission in June has been cancelled.  This
hearing was to intended to reconsider the previous WWII Memorial design and
site approvals.  It appears at this time that everything is back on track
with construction scheduled to begin July.  This information is available at
www.wwiimemorial.com.

Regards,     

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_37.15c3fa3f.2844e734_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 14:00:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 09:00:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators & Radio Ops Message-ID: <104.40db897.2844f776@aol.com> Mr. IBSPEC The undersigned went through Preflight in Santa Ana Calif., Primary at Rankin Aero Academy Tularie Calif. PT17,s Minter Field Bakersfield, Calif. BT13's and Advanced at Williams Field Near Mesa Arizona AT 6, AT9's P322'S (Unspupercharged P38's with no counterrotating props} and learned to fly B17's at Yuma Arizona Flying student Gunners 8 hours per day 6 days per week and 4 hrs per day of this was Air to ground gunnery at 150 ft where we learned to make steep turns every 20 miles without loosing any altitude. more than once. The cactus stuck up 30 feet and the right wing stuck down 52 feet and we had 22 student gunner aboard with no seatbelts and no seats either for that matter. & you think the War was scary? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 08:56:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:56:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial References: <37.15c3fa3f.2844e734@cs.com> Message-ID: <001601c0e814$efadab20$78194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for your reply , sir. I have the site bookmarked for quick reference. Estimates for construction time assume 30 months ( you can very likely rely on delays and cost overruns to advance that time frame). It is about as frustrating as waiting for an ambulance during rush hour. Do you suppose the wrangling is over now that Bush has signed the necessary Law? No need to reply, John I will just watch for updates from you and others, and try to keep abreast of the latest news. Thanks again. L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your Donation for WWII Memorial > Lloyd, > As a result of Congressional action the planned hearing by the > National Capital Planning Commission in June has been cancelled. This > hearing was to intended to reconsider the previous WWII Memorial design and > site approvals. It appears at this time that everything is back on track > with construction scheduled to begin July. This information is available at > www.wwiimemorial.com. > > Regards, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 16:18:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:18:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Memorial controversy Message-ID: I know this won't be a popular statement, but I must admit that I am confused by the controversy involved here, but tend to agree with the people trying to change the location of the memorial. I don't know much about it, but listening to both sides of the argument, it sure seems like there should have been a middle ground somewhere between the two positions. Ie I have heard the proponents of the current location say that they had something like 8 "acceptable" locations, and apparently 7 of these are acceptable to the opponents of the current location. It seems to me that it would make the eventual memorial more meaningful if you could find a site acceptable to all WWII veterans rather than one which offends many of them. I know next to nothing about the history of the argument involved here, so please set me straight if I am mis-understanding what I hear on the news. It's just that listening to both sides, there seems to be some obvious compromises that "could" have made everyone happy without adding any significant delay, although I understand that a change now would have to introduce some delay. There is no doubt that the memorial is long overdue, and should be built as soon as possible. I just think it is unfortunate that they have chosen a site that offends some veterans, when there were sites that apparently would have been acceptable to all. Again, I don't know much about the arguments. Please set me straight. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 16:37:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 08:37:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Memorial controversy References: Message-ID: <3B13C252.D3FC3B1B@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Have read and digested your various comments anent the WW#2 (the one we won) Memorial. I do not think site is as important as the Memorial, as you so aptly mention. However, the site now proposed, and agreed upon, seems to me to be a PERFECT site, for it mirrors the area between the Capitol and the other end. Where else would be fitting for a group of War Veterans (and the dead) whose efforts most assuredly prevented a Swastika from flying over the Capitol and perhaps everyone having to make the Hitler salute and then, bow, when they meet ... WW#2 (the one we won) most assuredly was tenuous many times as to final victory ... but victory was ours ... and since the Memorial cannot be put IN the Capitol, the present location is fine with me. An ever-protecting "sentinel" as it were. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > I know this won't be a popular statement, but I must admit that I > am confused by the controversy involved here, but tend to agree > with the people trying to change the location of the memorial. I > don't know much about it, but listening to both sides of the > argument, it sure seems like there should have been a middle > ground somewhere between the two positions. Ie I have heard the > proponents of the current location say that they had something like > 8 "acceptable" locations, and apparently 7 of these are acceptable > to the opponents of the current location. It seems to me that it > would make the eventual memorial more meaningful if you could > find a site acceptable to all WWII veterans rather than one which > offends many of them. > I know next to nothing about the history of the argument involved > here, so please set me straight if I am mis-understanding what I > hear on the news. It's just that listening to both sides, there > seems to be some obvious compromises that "could" have made > everyone happy without adding any significant delay, although I > understand that a change now would have to introduce some delay. > There is no doubt that the memorial is long overdue, and should > be built as soon as possible. I just think it is unfortunate that they > have chosen a site that offends some veterans, when there were > sites that apparently would have been acceptable to all. > Again, I don't know much about the arguments. Please set me > straight. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 17:26:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:26:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Memorial controversy In-Reply-To: <3B13C252.D3FC3B1B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Have read and digested your various comments anent the WW#2 (the one we > won) Memorial. I do not think site is as important as the Memorial, as you > so aptly mention. However, the site now proposed, and agreed upon, seems to > me to be a PERFECT site I hope you are right. Where-ever the memorial is put will be perfect. Something like Lincoln's 5 minute speech at Gettysburg compared to the 2 hour speech that preceeded it. Ie it's not the magnitude that's important, but the content. I just hope it's location doesn't detract from the message. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue May 29 18:49:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:49:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Memorial controversy References: Message-ID: <3B13E13E.3C302BA1@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Roger and out. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Have read and digested your various comments anent the WW#2 (the one we > > won) Memorial. I do not think site is as important as the Memorial, as you > > so aptly mention. However, the site now proposed, and agreed upon, seems to > > me to be a PERFECT site > > I hope you are right. Where-ever the memorial is put will be > perfect. Something like Lincoln's 5 minute speech at Gettysburg > compared to the 2 hour speech that preceeded it. Ie it's not the > magnitude that's important, but the content. I just hope it's > location doesn't detract from the message. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 02:58:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:58:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Navigators & Radio Ops Message-ID: thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 04:12:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:12:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators Message-ID: The facetious statement that radio operators kept the sandwiches warm was about the ultimate in lack of knowledge or understanding of the radio operator's duties. I have never kept sandwiches warm nor distributed them to the crew in the 35 missions I flew. I did however, continue to monitor our home base station at 7MT in the event a message was sent to the group on the mission. I have also done several radio triangulations to find our location to verify our navigator's findings in the event he became incapacitated. During the bomb run the radio operator discharged chaff, or window as the English called it, to divert the German antiaircraft guns from the formation. He also was required to check the camera in the camera well to be sure it was functioning during the bomb run. After bombs away, he checked the bomb bay to be sure all bombs had dropped, but on one mission I sat on the cat walk at 28,000 feet to knock out a 500 LB bomb which was hung up on one end of the shackle. When the German fighters came up, the "sandwich warmer" took the other waist gun since we were then flying a nine man crew. If Jim W. wanted to be cute, he failed! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 06:36:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:36:34 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010529193634.00845820@ilhawaii.net> Whoever, You are right, the comment was facetious, and designed to draw a response like that below. I am glad someone came forward to explain some of the duties of the radioman. I really did not know or remember what they were, although i knew they kept busy during our missions. Our radioman did find time to shoot at P-47 escort on our first mission. I blame it on the experienced co-pilot who was flying with us. He was justifiably nervous, and kept saying, "Watch that guy! They have P-47s too. Don't let him point his nose at us. The P-47 was flying parallel to us and Steve gave him three rads lead and did not hit him, but the P-47 took off in a hurry." I am truly sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, and you can feel free to criticize ball turret gunners. Jim Walling At 11:12 PM 5/29/01 EDT, you wrote: >The facetious statement that radio operators kept the sandwiches warm was >about the ultimate in lack of knowledge or understanding of the radio >operator's duties. I have never kept sandwiches warm nor distributed them to >the crew in the 35 missions I flew. I did however, continue to monitor our >home base station at 7MT in the event a message was sent to the group on the >mission. I have also done several radio triangulations to find our location >to verify our navigator's findings in the event he became incapacitated. >During the bomb run the radio operator discharged chaff, or window as the >English called it, to divert the German antiaircraft guns from the formation. > He also was required to check the camera in the camera well to be sure it >was functioning during the bomb run. After bombs away, he checked the bomb >bay to be sure all bombs had dropped, but on one mission I sat on the cat >walk at 28,000 feet to knock out a 500 LB bomb which was hung up on one end >of the shackle. When the German fighters came up, the "sandwich warmer" took >the other waist gun since we were then flying a nine man crew. If Jim W. >wanted to be cute, he failed! > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 06:21:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:21:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators Message-ID: Sparks, That radio operator that distributed the hot sandwiches really upset me too. I'm from Mesa so I have no sense of Yuma. We never got anything from our RO except static and he didn't even bring that he just sent it through the ear phones If he was going to shoot a fix he would have needed a shotgun and be up close. He was a loosey shot. He couldn't hit a base drum in the '"Battle Hymn of the Republic" Ima Lieur From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 07:06:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:06:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators References: Message-ID: <3B148DDB.BF66368E@attglobal.net> B17GSparks ... I do not believe Jim W, whoever he is, meant to be either facetious or rude. Most of these fellows merely want some feedback from the fellows who were thre. Like you. As to warming sandwiches, on our crew it was done by whomever had charge of the Aldis lamp for the mission. But, warm or not, those sandwiches were LIKE SAWDUST BETWEEN TWO SLABS OF CARDBOARD! Warm or not! Cheers, ol' Buddy! Bill Heller B17GSparks@aol.com wrote: > The facetious statement that radio operators kept the sandwiches warm was > about the ultimate in lack of knowledge or understanding of the radio > operator's duties. I have never kept sandwiches warm nor distributed them to > the crew in the 35 missions I flew. I did however, continue to monitor our > home base station at 7MT in the event a message was sent to the group on the > mission. I have also done several radio triangulations to find our location > to verify our navigator's findings in the event he became incapacitated. > During the bomb run the radio operator discharged chaff, or window as the > English called it, to divert the German antiaircraft guns from the formation. > He also was required to check the camera in the camera well to be sure it > was functioning during the bomb run. After bombs away, he checked the bomb > bay to be sure all bombs had dropped, but on one mission I sat on the cat > walk at 28,000 feet to knock out a 500 LB bomb which was hung up on one end > of the shackle. When the German fighters came up, the "sandwich warmer" took > the other waist gun since we were then flying a nine man crew. If Jim W. > wanted to be cute, he failed! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 08:00:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:00:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Memorial controversy Message-ID: <8c.755d1ec.2845f472@cs.com> --part1_8c.755d1ec.2845f472_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not know what the areas of disagreement were concerning the location of the WWII Memorial. You would think that after almost a decade of debate some sort of consensus would have been established. The Mall has traditionally been the site of Memorials to specific conflicts - WWI, Korea, and Vietnam. The Arlington National Cemetery across the Potomac River has Memorials to specific military services. Included are the Iwo Jima Memorial for the Marine Corps and the proposed Air Force Memorial. I am pleased that progress has been made in the eventual construction of the long overdue WWII Memorial. Such a pivotal conflict should not be neglected. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_8c.755d1ec.2845f472_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      I do not know what the areas of disagreement were concerning the
location of the WWII Memorial.  You would think that after almost a decade of
debate some sort of consensus would have been established.  The Mall has
traditionally been the site of Memorials to specific conflicts - WWI, Korea,
and Vietnam.  The Arlington National Cemetery across the Potomac River has
Memorials to specific military services.  Included are the Iwo Jima Memorial
for the Marine Corps and the proposed Air Force Memorial.
      I am pleased that progress has been made in the eventual construction
of the long overdue WWII Memorial.  Such a pivotal conflict should not be
neglected.

Best Wishes,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_8c.755d1ec.2845f472_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 13:31:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:31:45 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators Message-ID: <20010530123145.POOA2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> I don't think the comment about keeping the sandwiches warm was negative in any way. On our crew that was my responsibility. The fact that I did this did not take away from my duties as a bombardier. We were lucky to have sandwiches on our return trip. Not all groups provided this fine service. HA Bill Runnels > Whoever, > > You are right, the comment was facetious, and designed to draw a response like > that below. I am glad someone came forward to explain some of the duties of the > radioman. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 09:15:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:15:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Msg for Robert Kerr Message-ID: <004701c0e8e0$b86f63c0$83904d0c@o3n4f8> Robert Kerr, sir, if you are monitoring the forum please contact : palidin@worldnet.att.net . Doug Hayworth is ready to forward the tape to you. I may have your e-mail address written down incorrectly. My confirmation to you was returned " undeliverable". Would like to make sure I didn't get your street address wrong also. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 17:54:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:54:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators References: <3.0.5.32.20010529193634.00845820@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3B1525BB.68974AB@attglobal.net> Jim Walling ... Nothing in my remarks were meant to cast aspersion on ANYONE, however, I have been getting the feeling that some folks actually do not konw where certain crew members served not what their duties were. In my crew ... and many with whom I flew when I was leading ... to a man, most ALL of them knew the other's duties except for perhaps the pilot and copilot ... though I did teach my F/E to land the B17 in the event the two pilots might have been incapacitated or worse - so as to get the crew home. Again anent the R/O, in many ways he was a busy man.And, not too often on his guns, but then look where his gun was! Most R/Os were taught to "clear" the bomb bay after bomb release and MANY of them go the nasty order to "GET THAT BOMB OUT OF THERE IF YOU HAVE TO GO WITH IT!" (in fact, my R/O did just that when an incendiary hung up and was on fire for some reason ) ... he is alive because the Right Waits Gunner heard all this and ran forward with a walk-around and grabbed his legfs just as he WOULD have been going out. The bomb was released and the R/O got a medal for his actions. In conclusion, I firmly believe that EVERY member of EVERY crew was an expert at his duties and was an integral part of a winning team ... the B17 flight crew. And when we went to "toggeleers" they became an integral part of the crew, manned guns much of the time, and were also the general "handy man" of some crews getting all the mundane duties which had to be performed during a flight or a mission. Cheers, ol' Buddy. Glad to have you aboard. Bill Heller Jim Walling wrote: > Whoever, > > You are right, the comment was facetious, and designed to draw a response like that below. I am glad someone came forward to explain some of the duties of the radioman. I really did not know or remember what they were, although i knew they kept busy during our missions. Our radioman did find time to shoot at P-47 escort on our first mission. I blame it on the experienced co-pilot who was flying with us. He was justifiably nervous, and kept saying, "Watch that guy! They have P-47s too. Don't let him point his nose at us. The P-47 was flying parallel to us and Steve gave him three rads lead and did not hit him, but the P-47 took off in a hurry." > > I am truly sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, and you can feel free to criticize ball turret gunners. > > Jim Walling > > At 11:12 PM 5/29/01 EDT, you wrote: > >The facetious statement that radio operators kept the sandwiches warm was > >about the ultimate in lack of knowledge or understanding of the radio > >operator's duties. I have never kept sandwiches warm nor distributed them to > >the crew in the 35 missions I flew. I did however, continue to monitor our > >home base station at 7MT in the event a message was sent to the group on the > >mission. I have also done several radio triangulations to find our location > >to verify our navigator's findings in the event he became incapacitated. > >During the bomb run the radio operator discharged chaff, or window as the > >English called it, to divert the German antiaircraft guns from the formation. > > He also was required to check the camera in the camera well to be sure it > >was functioning during the bomb run. After bombs away, he checked the bomb > >bay to be sure all bombs had dropped, but on one mission I sat on the cat > >walk at 28,000 feet to knock out a 500 LB bomb which was hung up on one end > >of the shackle. When the German fighters came up, the "sandwich warmer" took > >the other waist gun since we were then flying a nine man crew. If Jim W. > >wanted to be cute, he failed! > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 19:21:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:21:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Msg for Robert Kerr Message-ID: <7e.15b19352.28469412@aol.com> Lloyd, I got the tape today. I am not sure Brian McGuire still wants it. If not, who do you want me to send it to next? Mailing address Please. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 19:28:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:28:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: <6c.af39bf6.284695c8@aol.com> --part1_6c.af39bf6.284695c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Radio Operator on my Crew, T/Sgt Edgar H. Quick was a great, useful and essential crewmen - as were the other members of my crew. He was a few years older than the rest of the crewmen and we often called him "Pops". He was an expert on the functions of a radio operator and was the father figure to the rest of my crew. He, like of other Gunners on my crew,knew how to use his guns. We spent a lot of hours on the Molesworth Gunnery range to make sure. He was our offical crew first aid man and took on this job seriously. If oxygen checks were made at too lengthy an interval he took the initiative to make a check. During our combat crew training in the USA he was the best instructor that the enlisted crewmen had. On several occasions when we became seperated from the Squadron formation his radio fix's helped our Navigator to pin point our location. On several occasions he "instructed" one of the other crewman to check on a crewman in the back of our B-17 to make sure that he was alright. I can't ever remember having hot sandwiches on our combat missions but they certainly wouldn't have been handled by our Radio Operator. Please don't belittle the Radio Operator or any other combat crewmen. While a few might have given a sub-par performance on rare occasions most were great at their jobs and all will always have my greatest admiration and respect. Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot --part1_6c.af39bf6.284695c8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Radio Operator on my Crew, T/Sgt Edgar H. Quick was a great, useful and
essential crewmen - as were the other members of my crew.  He was a few years
older than the rest of the crewmen and we often called him "Pops".  He was an
expert on the functions of a radio operator and was the father figure to the
rest of my crew.  He, like of other Gunners on my crew,knew how to use his
guns.  We spent a lot of hours on the Molesworth Gunnery range to make sure.  
He was our offical crew first aid man and took on this job seriously.  If
oxygen checks were made at too lengthy an  interval he took the initiative to
make a check.  During our combat crew training in the USA he was the best
instructor that the enlisted crewmen had. On several occasions when we became
seperated from the Squadron formation his radio fix's helped our Navigator to
pin point our location.  On several occasions he "instructed" one of the
other crewman to check on a crewman in the back of our
B-17 to make sure that he was alright.
I can't ever remember having hot sandwiches on our combat missions but they
certainly wouldn't have been handled by our Radio Operator.
Please don't belittle the Radio Operator or any other combat crewmen.  While
a few might have given a sub-par performance on rare occasions most were
great at their jobs and all will always have my greatest admiration and
respect.
Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot --part1_6c.af39bf6.284695c8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 20:18:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:18:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Islap House? Message-ID: At one time, there was a member of this list who lived near Kettering in England I think, but I don't remember who it was. If she is still here, I was curious whether there was something called "Islap House" in Kettering? One of the letters from POWs that I found on the microfilm, was addressed to a couple named Cooper at Islap House. The text of the letter sounded a bit strange, and I was wondering if it might have been some kind of code or something, and whether Islap House was just a mailing address to get letters back to Molesworth or something? And to everyone, were there any instructions given to flight crews with respect to how to get messages back to Molesworth past the German censors if they became POWs?? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 04:10:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:10:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: <30.159c559e.28471025@aol.com> --part1_30.159c559e.28471025_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thanks B17 G Sparks. Your description of the role of the radio > operators duties matches what my Dad has told me. Dad is Gene Girman > of the 359th and Jack Hillary's crew. His "duties" even carried over > to his life after the war. As a little girl I would sit on his lap and > he would speak Morris code to me. The sound of "dot ditty dot," etc., > was music to my young ears. Heidi Girman --part1_30.159c559e.28471025_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thanks B17 G Sparks. Your description of the role of the radio
> operators duties matches what my Dad has told me. Dad is Gene Girman
> of the 359th and Jack Hillary's crew. His "duties" even carried over
> to his life after the war. As a little girl I would sit on his lap and
> he would speak Morris code to me. The sound of "dot ditty dot," etc.,
> was music to my young ears.

Heidi Girman --part1_30.159c559e.28471025_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 14:48:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:48:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position than I would ever have expected. It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them will defend you to the end from outside attack. Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks ( not a title I am necessarily proud of...). As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 04:06:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:06:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: <002f01c0e97e$a7cc2960$409a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C0E954.BDD8CA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I , too was a sandwich warmer in addition to my other duties.=20 Sat on freq meter and tossed chaff out the chute for ten missions. = Besides maintaining radio watch, checking bomb bay for the bombardier = and keeping the log book. After Kuykendall had us check out for lead crew, I flew 20 more missions = sending position reports and bomb strike report to 7MT. Also had K28 = camera in well to care for. I couldn't man a gun because General Doolittle ordered gun out of radio = room and told us to not abandon position unless order to abandon ship = was given. I also triggered (screw drivered) 2 hung bombs on one mission. and got = shot at also. I have two pieces of flak that were aimed at me ---but = missed me, thank the Lord. So, hurrah for the sandwich warmers. Fory Barton (Kuyks crew) ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C0E954.BDD8CA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I , too was a sandwich warmer in = addition to my=20 other duties.
Sat on freq meter and tossed chaff out = the chute=20 for ten missions. Besides maintaining radio watch, checking bomb bay for = the=20 bombardier and keeping the log book.
After Kuykendall had us check out for = lead crew,=20 I flew 20 more missions sending position reports and bomb strike report = to 7MT.=20 Also had K28 camera in well to care for.
I couldn't man a gun because General = Doolittle=20 ordered gun out of radio room and told us to not abandon position unless = order=20 to abandon ship was given.
I also triggered (screw drivered) 2 = hung bombs=20 on one mission. and got shot at also. I have two pieces of flak that = were aimed=20 at me ---but missed me, thank the Lord.
So, hurrah for the sandwich=20 warmers.
 
Fory Barton (Kuyks=20 crew)
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C0E954.BDD8CA80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 21:16:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:16:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... Message-ID: To anyone out there ... In following discussions about various duties of the crew members aboard a B-17, I have seen only one that mentions the duties of the Flight Engineer. Did all of the planes have one or were they often flown without one? What was their official duty when flying a mission? It was 10 years after the war before I met my husband, who flew 28 missions as a F/E out of Molesworth but, because he never liked to talk about it, to this day ... I'm at a loss as to just what a Flight Engineer's duties consisted of. I have a lot of snapshots of the crew, but no mention as to what his duties actually were. Had it not been for the "Captain of the Ship," Clyde Henning, I would never have known how many missions he flew. Could someone enlighten me, please, and fill in the missing parts. Thank you, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 21:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:51:22 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners In-Reply-To: <6c.af39bf6.284695c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010530105122.00846d50@ilhawaii.net> Harry It is interesting to see who took my posting as belittling radio operators and who took it in the spirit it was intended. I'm surprised you never had sandwiches on your longer missions. We always did, and I don't know who arranged it. They were much appreciated and for us we considered it service beyond the call of duty. I am sure our radioman was as good as any in the group. He took a bit of good natured kidding about the escort incident, but it never affected our relations or the solidarity of the crew. I am as serious as anyone about this group, but sometimes I think it wouldn't hurt them to lighten up a bit. Jim Walling At 02:28 PM 5/30/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialThe Radio Operator on my Crew, T/Sgt Edgar H. Quick was a great, useful and essential crewmen - as were the other members of my crew. He was a few years older than the rest of the crewmen and we often called him "Pops". He was an expert on the functions of a radio operator and was the father figure to the rest of my crew. He, like of other Gunners on my crew,knew how to use his guns. We spent a lot of hours on the Molesworth Gunnery range to make sure. He was our offical crew first aid man and took on this job seriously. If oxygen checks were made at too lengthy an interval he took the initiative to make a check. During our combat crew training in the USA he was the best instructor that the enlisted crewmen had. On several occasions when we became seperated from the Squadron formation his radio fix's helped our Navigator to pin point our location. On several occasions he "instructed" one of the other crewman to check on a crewman in the back of our B-17 to make sure that he was alright. I can't ever remember having hot sandwiches on our combat missions but they certainly wouldn't have been handled by our Radio Operator. Please don't belittle the Radio Operator or any other combat crewmen. While a few might have given a sub-par performance on rare occasions most were great at their jobs and all will always have my greatest admiration and respect. Harry D. Gobrecht - 358th BS Pilot arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 22:15:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:15:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators Message-ID: <24.14565e83.2846bce5@aol.com> amen, that was our radio man newby's duty. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 22:22:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:22:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Navigators & Radio Operators Message-ID: <3e.c67c49d.2846bea7@aol.com> our steward restricted our crew to 1 bag og ga. peanuts and 1 drink of army ,get it ,army air corps canteen water per directions of flight. no hot sandwishes. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed May 30 23:54:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:54:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Islap House? Message-ID: bill jones. go to 303rdbga website. there is a former red cross nurse just entered her remarks and states about being at kettering. inquire of her. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 06:41:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:41:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators References: <30.159c559e.28471025@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B15D98C.7374B589@attglobal.net> --------------D5B2D821A13747641C6B88A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi ... Tell your Dad, Gene Girman and HUGE hello from me, Bill Heller. Cheers! And I hope you learned the Morse code well. Bill Heller Hydeho13@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks B17 G Sparks. Your description of the role of the radio > > operators duties matches what my Dad has told me. Dad is Gene Girman > > > of the 359th and Jack Hillary's crew. His "duties" even carried over > > > to his life after the war. As a little girl I would sit on his lap > and > > he would speak Morris code to me. The sound of "dot ditty dot," > etc., > > was music to my young ears. > > Heidi Girman --------------D5B2D821A13747641C6B88A3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi ...

Tell your Dad, Gene Girman and HUGE hello from me, Bill Heller.

Cheers!

And I hope you learned the Morse code well.

Bill Heller
 

Hydeho13@aol.com wrote:

> Thanks B17 G Sparks. Your description of the role of the radio
> operators duties matches what my Dad has told me. Dad is Gene Girman
> of the 359th and Jack Hillary's crew. His "duties" even carried over
> to his life after the war. As a little girl I would sit on his lap and
> he would speak Morris code to me. The sound of "dot ditty dot," etc.,
> was music to my young ears.

Heidi Girman

--------------D5B2D821A13747641C6B88A3-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 06:47:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:47:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... References: Message-ID: <3B15DB01.9A1166D6@attglobal.net> Anne Grant ... Am not cedrtain WHAT duties were handed out on other crews for the F/E ... but he USUALLY was the Top Turret Gunner; the direct assistant to the two pilots at the console (on very high and cold missions he often excerized our props for us so as not to let the prop balance lines congeal and therefore cause non-control of the props); he generally was the Chief of the Enolisted Crew and thusly worked directly under the pilot..as to communications with the crew on various matters. On my crew I taught him to land the B17 for obvious purposes. Many others may inundate you with information anent F/E .. but that is the way it was on our crew. Cheers! Bill Heller AnnebessG@gateway.net wrote: > To anyone out there ... > In following discussions about various duties of the crew members aboard a > B-17, I have seen only one that mentions the duties of the Flight Engineer. > Did all of the planes have one or were they often flown without one? What was > their official duty when flying a mission? > It was 10 years after the war before I met my husband, who flew 28 > missions as a F/E out of Molesworth but, because he never liked to talk about > it, to this day ... I'm at a loss as to just what a Flight Engineer's duties > consisted of. > I have a lot of snapshots of the crew, but no mention as to what his > duties actually were. Had it not been for the "Captain of the Ship," Clyde > Henning, I would never have known how many missions he flew. Could someone > enlighten me, please, and fill in the missing parts. Thank you, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 06:51:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:51:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators References: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B15DBEC.7DCDF6F0@attglobal.net> Grant ... I do not believe Jim Walling's remarks were facetious as some seem to think .. but after all it was Jim himself who mentioned them as being facetious. Not so. He was merely looking for info. We all have our various ways of doing that. Mine are sometimes considered caustic, but believe me there are NO BETTER crews ANYWHERE than those of the 303rd. If they varied in their duties and "uses" of various crew members it was to better their idea of a combat team. And ... we won. And ... we flew the MOST missions of any Group in the 8th. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " > facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position > than I would ever have expected. > It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an > injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" > when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them > will defend you to the end from outside attack. > Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks ( not a > title I am necessarily proud of...). > As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the > many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 07:38:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:38:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... Message-ID: Anne, It is midnight but I don't feel like going to bed so I'll be any one and answer your letter about Flight Engineers. There were 3 or 4 Officers and 5 or 6 enlisted men on most B17 crews. Every man on the crew was important. It would be difficult to say one was more important than another. What is the most important thing on an automobile? The engine? The wheels? The Radiator? or the fuel tank? It won't run without any of them. A combat flight crew on a Bomber is somewhat similar. They are all necessary to make it function The FE is certainly one very important position. He was usually the supervisor and chief of the enlisted crew and ran the top turrett.He was the chief of the mechanical function of the plane when it was away from home base or in the air. He was trained and knowledgeable about the mechanics and operation of most all the systems on the aircraft. He checked the gear to be sure it was down properly before we landed. He transferred fuel from one tank to another He supervised the fueling, oiling,tiedown, and security of the plane when we were away from the regular ground crew He could and did assist the pilots if needed with landing gear up & down, Flaps, Cowl flaps. Generators, inverters, engine speed and manifold pressure and the oxygen system. Some pilots taught their Engineers to fly. I did and also had him stand behind me on instrument approaches and read the airspeed to me until we were on the ground. If there were mechanical problems while we were on a mission or in the air that could be fixed or patched until we got back it was the engineers baby. When I used to ferry B17s and other four engine planes after I got back to the states we often flew with a two man crew One pilot and one engineer who did all the copilots functions except piloting the bird. I hope you hear for some Engineers. I probably left somethings out. Good night Dear Girl. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 07:38:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:38:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... Message-ID: Anne, It is midnight but I don't feel like going to bed so I'll be any one and answer your letter about Flight Engineers. There were 3 or 4 Officers and 5 or 6 enlisted men on most B17 crews. Every man on the crew was important. It would be difficult to say one was more important than another. What is the most important thing on an automobile? The engine? The wheels? The Radiator? or the fuel tank? It won't run without any of them. A combat flight crew on a Bomber is somewhat similar. They are all necessary to make it function The FE is certainly one very important position. He was usually the supervisor and chief of the enlisted crew and ran the top turrett.He was the chief of the mechanical function of the plane when it was away from home base or in the air. He was trained and knowledgeable about the mechanics and operation of most all the systems on the aircraft. He checked the gear to be sure it was down properly before we landed. He transferred fuel from one tank to another He supervised the fueling, oiling,tiedown, and security of the plane when we were away from the regular ground crew He could and did assist the pilots if needed with landing gear up & down, Flaps, Cowl flaps. Generators, inverters, engine speed and manifold pressure and the oxygen system. Some pilots taught their Engineers to fly. I did and also had him stand behind me on instrument approaches and read the airspeed to me until we were on the ground. If there were mechanical problems while we were on a mission or in the air that could be fixed or patched until we got back it was the engineers baby. When I used to ferry B17s and other four engine planes after I got back to the states we often flew with a two man crew One pilot and one engineer who did all the copilots functions except piloting the bird. I hope you hear for some Engineers. I probably left somethings out. Good night Dear Girl. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 14:28:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:28:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: Smile-Jim-I am with you now and then; we too had an excellent RO, Charley Ennis from Boston and regular Army, dating back to the early 30's. He was also in charge of our sandwiches which I can taste to this day roast beef, lots of butter, and kept toasty warm in an electric hand warming muff, we also had a good friend at the mess hall that looked after us, wish I could remember his name. Ennis also took pictures and did a host of other duties well for 35 missions-he was also an excellent drinker and could put most anyone under the table and still walk away with a steady gait. Humor is needed! Bill Carter, 358th BTG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 08:48:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:48:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators References: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B15DBEC.7DCDF6F0@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0e9a6$20e81ee0$43914d0c@o3n4f8> Amen, Bill. Nor did I. Facetious remarks are my baliwick. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators > Grant ... > > I do not believe Jim Walling's remarks were facetious as some seem to think .. > but after all it was Jim himself who mentioned them as being facetious. Not so. > He was merely looking for info. We all have our various ways of doing that. > Mine are sometimes considered caustic, but believe me there are NO BETTER crews > ANYWHERE than those of the 303rd. If they varied in their duties and "uses" of > various crew members it was to better their idea of a combat team. And ... we > won. And ... we flew the MOST missions of any Group in the 8th. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " > > facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position > > than I would ever have expected. > > It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an > > injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" > > when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them > > will defend you to the end from outside attack. > > Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks not a > > title I am necessarily proud of...). > > As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the > > many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 16:15:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Louis Grandwilliams) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: makestuff.com - How to Preserve Old and Brittle Newspaper Clippings Message-ID: <20071-3B165FFC-432@storefull-138.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-31032-221 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hope this is not to late. --WebTV-Mail-31032-221 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.103) by storefull-138.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id 00CC91D; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: oldblackmagic@mailsorter-bryant.bryant.webtv.net Received: from storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net (iapisp-ipmux-5-a2-pip.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.5]) by mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id D52176E for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA21313; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQPcWqRv/Dz2cMiaTu4346ujyqPNgIUR78HyLUb75cFobNTsH28/WcpnpI= From: RORY50@webtv.net (B 17 PILOT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:25:42 -0400 (EDT) To: OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: makestuff.com - How to Preserve Old and Brittle Newspaper Clippings Message-ID: <12463-3B151F06-110@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-17996-50 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=#FFFFFF; TextColor=#336600 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) --WebTV-Mail-17996-50 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.makestuff.com/newsclip.html --WebTV-Mail-17996-50 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


~ Stop And Smell The Roses~
--WebTV-Mail-17996-50 X-URL-Title: makestuff.com - How to Preserve Old and Brittle Newspaper Clippings Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.makestuff.com/newsclip.html --WebTV-Mail-17996-50-- --WebTV-Mail-31032-221-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 16:52:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:52:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question on a plane # and name Message-ID: Hi list, I need your help. I have just received a copy of my uncle's crew photo from the wife of one of his crew. I am hoping the list members can help me to answer some questions. I have searched thru the web site with no luck, so I am looking for some direction. 1) The picture was taken in Yun-dum, Morocco just south of Casablanca. Was it common to go to England via Africa in early '43? Would there be another crew photo taken in England? This photo only had 8 of 10 members. 2) The plane # is 25407 (42-5407). According to the mission reports he never flew in that plane. How can I find out what happened to that plane or if it was his? 3) According to a note in a photo the name of the plane flown by this crew was "The Grapes of Wrath". However according to the mission reports, this name is not mentioned. Nor is it mentioned on the site. Again the question, how can I track this down? Was it common for a crew to bring a plane over from the states and then end up flying something else? Thanks for your help!! Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 18:34:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:34:14 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators In-Reply-To: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010531073414.008a18e0@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd, Yes, I guess it was an apology, but only for the fact that I knew so little about what the radio operators duties were and about he and the navigator and bombardier carried out their duties. I am glad that we are learning more about those. I still think the warming of the sandwiches was important. Jim Walling At 09:48 AM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " >facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position >than I would ever have expected. >It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an >injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" >when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them >will defend you to the end from outside attack. >Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks ( not a >title I am necessarily proud of...). >As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the >many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 18:47:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:47:57 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew duties In-Reply-To: <3B15DBEC.7DCDF6F0@attglobal.net> References: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010531074757.008a93e0@ilhawaii.net> Bill Heller, Thank you for explaining the intent of my remarks about radio operators better than I could have done. I sometimes think my duties as observor were more important than the gunnery. We flew into all that flak for 34 missions before I saw or fired at an enemy fighter on our 35th. I know the reasons for that was because the gunners were there and our pilots flew such good tight formations. There were often fighters reported in the area, but they did not attack us. I wonder how many gunners flew all their missions without ever seeing a german fighter. Jim Walling At 10:51 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote: >Grant ... > >I do not believe Jim Walling's remarks were facetious as some seem to think .. >but after all it was Jim himself who mentioned them as being facetious. Not so. >He was merely looking for info. We all have our various ways of doing that. >Mine are sometimes considered caustic, but believe me there are NO BETTER crews >ANYWHERE than those of the 303rd. If they varied in their duties and "uses" of >various crew members it was to better their idea of a combat team. And ... we >won. And ... we flew the MOST missions of any Group in the 8th. > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >Lloyd J Grant wrote: > >> Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " >> facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position >> than I would ever have expected. >> It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an >> injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" >> when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them >> will defend you to the end from outside attack. >> Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks ( not a >> title I am necessarily proud of...). >> As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the >> many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 20:15:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:15:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: --part1_cc.15c1a447.2847f241_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will do. Heidi Girman --part1_cc.15c1a447.2847f241_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will do.   Heidi Girman --part1_cc.15c1a447.2847f241_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 20:17:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:17:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: <81.b53efc9.2847f2c1@aol.com> --part1_81.b53efc9.2847f2c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually as a kid I did know some of the code but have forgotten it. Dad still remembers it though. Heidi Girman --part1_81.b53efc9.2847f2c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually as a kid I did know some of the code but have forgotten it. Dad
still remembers it though.  Heidi Girman --part1_81.b53efc9.2847f2c1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 21:44:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:44:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew duties References: <002f01c0e90f$3bf3f980$ce8f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3.0.5.32.20010531074757.008a93e0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3B16AD37.A303F394@attglobal.net> Jim Walling ... Do not know exactly about any gunners completeing a tour sans fighter attacks, but I am sure many saw many flighters milling around. We were there abit earlier and we did get a few fighters. I had one gunner who got two prior to his 18th birthday and often wondered how he got in the Army. A fine lad, he was. As for seeing so many, I recall on practicllay every missions there were gaggles of the Luftwaffe up at 1100 or 1300 and I wondered a lot why they did not attack ... and then after the war when I became close friends and worked with many of the Luftwaffe who were in WW#2 ... they all told me they would look the formations over and TRY to only attack those that were loose or had stragglers. This is a fact of life and I am very proud that our organization had tight formation as its main aim. One Luftwaffe told me that every once in a while they had a gung ho flight leader and HE would MAKE them attack regardless of how well a formation was being flown. I guess it takes all kinds, eh? Nice to know yu and meet you on the Web, Jim. Stay well. Cheers! Bill Heller Jim Walling wrote: > Bill Heller, > > Thank you for explaining the intent of my remarks about radio operators better than I could have done. I sometimes think my duties as observor were more important than the gunnery. We flew into all that flak for 34 missions before I saw or fired at an enemy fighter on our 35th. I know the reasons for that was because the gunners were there and our pilots flew such good tight formations. There were often fighters reported in the area, but they did not attack us. I wonder how many gunners flew all their missions without ever seeing a german fighter. > > Jim Walling > > At 10:51 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Grant ... > > > >I do not believe Jim Walling's remarks were facetious as some seem to think .. > >but after all it was Jim himself who mentioned them as being facetious. Not so. > >He was merely looking for info. We all have our various ways of doing that. > >Mine are sometimes considered caustic, but believe me there are NO BETTER crews > >ANYWHERE than those of the 303rd. If they varied in their duties and "uses" of > >various crew members it was to better their idea of a combat team. And ... we > >won. And ... we flew the MOST missions of any Group in the 8th. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > >> Jim Walling, welcome to the "high fidelity" Club. Thank you for your " > >> facetious" remarks. As a result, I have learned more about the R/O position > >> than I would ever have expected. > >> It has been my observation that no man here faults you personally for an > >> injudicious remark, but they will set you straight in a "New York Minute" > >> when they feel you have strayed. It works both ways, tho; everyone of them > >> will defend you to the end from outside attack. > >> Keep trying, pard. I still hold the record for injudicious remarks ( not a > >> title I am necessarily proud of...). > >> As far as I am concerned, your apology was enough said, tho I welcome the > >> many responses your comment provoked. gator grin: {: =}). Lloyd Grant. > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 21:45:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:45:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators References: <81.b53efc9.2847f2c1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B16AD84.466267DD@attglobal.net> --------------33591B73EFF5ADC486800E51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi ... I KNOW your Dad still knows the code. Great guy! Cheers! Bill Heller Hydeho13@aol.com wrote: > Actually as a kid I did know some of the code but have forgotten it. > Dad > still remembers it though. Heidi Girman --------------33591B73EFF5ADC486800E51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi ...

I KNOW your Dad still knows the code. Great guy!

Cheers!

Bill Heller

Hydeho13@aol.com wrote:

Actually as a kid I did know some of the code but have forgotten it. Dad
still remembers it though.  Heidi Girman
--------------33591B73EFF5ADC486800E51-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu May 31 22:35:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:35:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information on SSgt Paul D. Ferguson Message-ID: <77.157f0659.28481332@aol.com> Subj: Information on SSgt Paul D. Ferguson Date: 05/30/2001 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I am seeking information on my uncle, SSgt Paul D. Ferguson who was a member of the 427th Bomb Squadron. He was a Tail Gunner on a B-17F. The Aircraft number was 41-24620. The name of the plane was "Snap!, Crackle !, Pop!" The Pilot was 1lt Donald E. Stockton. My uncle Paul was killed in action on January 13, 1943, over Lille, France. His body was returned to Molesworth, England. I am hoping to find someone who knew my uncle, or may have even been on the mission where he was killed. I never knew my uncle Paul. I was not born until two decades after he died. I think of him often and wonder what he might have been like, had he lived. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for all you sacrificed for our freedom. God Bless you all. Sincerely, Christina Ramirez Chrys24243@aol.com