From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 01:39:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:39:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks References: Message-ID: <001801c0a1f0$886642c0$0b874d0c@netzero> Jenne, I should know this stuff. We were stationed at an RAF base in Yorkshire. It was a long time ago. When I was a boy, we traveled across the United States with three RAF officers over here for training. Time has muddled my memory. Thanks to you and Uwe for sharing the information. I now have it filed. L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenne Collins" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks > Hi, > > I'm a Brit, but I can't promise to get this right! Assuming the RAF's > structure hasn't changed... > > 2nd Lt. - Pilot Officer (P/Off) > 1st Lt. - Flying Officer (F/Off) > Captain - Flight Lieutenant (pronounced "Leff-tenant" of course!) > Major - Squadron Leader > Lt. Col.- Wing Commander > Col. - Group Captain > The ranks above are (I may have left one out - I'm doing it from memory) > Air Commodore > Air Vice Marshal > Air Marshal > Marshal of the Royal Air Force > > I am not sure exactly how the NCO ranks worked in the USAAF, but if you send > me a list, I'll fit ours to yours! > > Hope that helps > > Jenne Collins > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 03:38:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:38:59 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check this out... Message-ID: <000b01c0a201$2ac08160$0b874d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A1D7.3E048CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://pages.infinit.net/ladydi/airborne_airplanes.html send an e-mail card to your wingman . Moving gifs & music to suit. = Worth the trip and its free. LG. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A1D7.3E048CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://p= ages.infinit.net/ladydi/airborne_airplanes.html

send an e-mail card to your wingman = . Moving=20 gifs & music to suit. Worth the trip and its = free.

LG.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A1D7.3E048CA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 05:41:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:41:31 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <001f01c09f7b$59fb2940$720110ac@Betac.com> <3686.983362119@www33.gmx.net> <001e01c0a1d2$4c193b60$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3A9DE10B.464E5DAF@newsfactory.net> oh yeah, driving down the Mosel from Koblenz all the way to Trier, stopping by at those beautiful castles, having some wine with friends - warm late summer evenings - watching the trawlers passing along on the river - listening to nightingales...... this part of Germany is really worth a trip! Brian, do you also recall those "Spätlese-headaches"? :) Best.... Uwe Brian McGuire schrieb: > I recall those places in the Mosel region. For many years I would drive to > the Mosel and fill my car with Mosel Spatleses, my favorite wine at the > time. Now prefer the Nahes (between BK and Bingen and Rockenhausen). Makes > me thirsty thinking about it. > > Cheers. > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bernd Schlüter > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:08 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello all > > > Off topic: > > I am just watching Duna televizio, that is the Hungarian TV over > satellite. > > I see you all sitting in your old planes. It is a most nice TV report of > the > > development of aircrafts and rebuilding of your military mashines into > civil > > crafts. Most nice landscapes you can see out of the cockpits of many of > your > > mashines. Beginning with Hugo Junkers running across the wings of his Ju, > a > > dictator passing by, you can watch the construction of your bigger > > transportation mashines, especially the DC4, if "haron", that is Hungarian > language, > > means "4". Many, many details of your military allday life are shown, > except of > > those famous cigarettes, you talked so much about. But I think, no one can > > estimate the real importance of the cigars to the pilots than You! > > You see your planes loosing their colour for being reformed into the > > "Electra" and Superconstallation. You see the "Comets" and "Boeings" > getting their > > engines and see the mashines passing all the capitals of the free world... > > Interisting for me, the Hungarian language is aquainted anyhow with > Turkish > > and Finnish, maybe Swedish, too. You know, in former times the real > "huns", > > these have been the Hungarians and not the Germans, committed their "air > > raides" on the back of their planes (=horses) all over the old world. > > The range of their "mashines" was much higher then that of your P51s! > > France, the Huns had arrived there, is more then 10,000 miles far from > > China. > > Interesting for me is the language, too and I am joinung the university of > > Duesseldorf today to learn some more languages...Until now there are eight > > languages, in which I got knowledges, most poor like my English. > > Well I see now, the film was an american, available in the States, too. > > > > In the next weeks I plan to visit our fighter friend, Werner, at the > Mosel > > river. > > For my mother he is only the husband of her girlfriend, but for me it is > > much more interesting to listen to his experiences in the wartime. > > Today he is constructing houses and plants for fabrication of Whine all > over > > Germany. He is residing in an Architects dream of a house at the most nice > > place (Marienburg) high above the river Mosel, maybe, someone knows > "Bullay", > > "Bitburg" and "Buechel", which is all nearby. Until a few years ago he was > > still active in flying his own motorized sailingplane. His interest in > veterans > > communities of fighters is not too high, as Uwe described, too, and he has > > to look into one of his many books, before he can answer my technical > > questions. But if he meets a pilot, anywhere in the world, he is in his > element...And > > he travels a lot today, no more lack of fuel and he speaks many languages, > > too. > > So, I have to start now to "Moenchengladbach" airport again to fix the > > electric starter and the GPS to the Trike now. My friend there had had a > very > > heavy accident while starting his "Hirth" motor in his hangar and does not > want > > to make such an experience a second time. > > Yesterday we made a trip around with a GPS "Magellan", I think, you all > will > > own one of these wonderful compainions developed in your country? I think, > > in former times you missed it a lot... > > > > -- > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 13:01:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jenne Collins) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:01:40 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Benjamin Spring Message-ID: Dear Jay, I'm afraid I haven't been following the replies to your posting, but here is the information I have been able to find for you - I hope at least some of it is useful! I started by looking up which Bomb Group your father served with - and found that the 360th Bomb Squadron was part of the 303rd Bomb Group, which was based at Molesworth, England. Then I looked in the 'Mighty Eighth Combat Chronology Supplement', compiled by Paul M Andrews and William H Adams. There, I found the following information listed (I've decoded it in my own words) The 303rd lost only one crew on the mission of 25th July 1943. This was 42-29606. The crew were as follows; Pilot Lt John A Van Wie (Killed in Action) Co-pilot 2ndLt James D Walsh (Prisoner of War) Bombardier 2ndLt Paul (NMI) Blank (PoW) Navigator Lt Robert L Taylor (PoW) Top Turret Technical Sgt Albert (NMI) Hlebasko (KIA) Radio Operator T/Sgt Robert W. Noll (PoW) Ball Turret Staff Sgt Benjamin F Spring (PoW, repatriated) Left Waist S/Sgt Eugene L Morton (KIA) Right Waist S/Sgt Theodore G Swanson (KIA) Tail Turret S/Sgt Robert C Bridges (PoW) Having established this, I then referred to Roger Freeman's book 'The B-17 Flying Fortress Story', where I found the following about 42-29606 (I have expanded the abbreviations, but otherwise, this is verbatim); 42-29606 Delivered to Cheyenne 18-1-43; to Salina 9-2-43; Morrison 10-3-43; assigned to the 360th Bomb Squadron/303rd Bomb Group [call-sign PU-W] at Molesworth on 6-4-43; MIA on the Hamburg mission of 25-7-43 with Van Wie as pilot. Shot down by flak, crashing Hamburg; 4KIA, 6 PoW. MACR 91. Aircraft was named Toots - Butch. The MACR (Missing Air Crew Report) would be a good place to start - it will give details of how the aircraft was shot down, and may also include eye-witness reports. If you visit www.heavybombers.com there is a section on how to request this document, and others. I looked up Toots-Butch in Wallace R Forman's book 'B-17 Nose Art Name Directory' and found two separate listings - one for Toots and one for Butch, both with the correct serial number. I suspect that this is the mistake, and that Roger Freeman' book is more accurate, as his data is taken straight from the original records. However, it's worth bearing in mind. I hope this lot is of some interest to you - if I haven't explained anything properly, or if you have any further questions, please feel free to email me, either on the webring or at b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com (that's a 'one' not an 'ell'!) Regards, Jenne Collins b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com PS All dates are in British DD-MM-YY format! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 13:35:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:35:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: <3A9E09B4.11205.721A40@localhost> I am curious as to what is the difference between an "abortive" and an "abortive sortie"? In the monthly aircraft inventories on the microfilm records, as data for the individual aircraft, they have a column labled abortive, and another column labled abortive sortie. Also, on the new CD, some crews were labled as abortive sorties for certain missions. The examples I found on the CD involved a mission where crews flew the whole mission, but brought their bombs back, so I am guessing that an "abortive" is where a plane had to turn back, due to mechanical problems, while an "abortive sortie" must refer to flying the mission, but not being able to drop bombs for one reason or another . Is this correct? Would a crew get credit for a mission that was designated as an abortive sortie? I have notes that suggest that credit was given on one of my father's missions that was an abortive sortie, but wasn't sure about what the term implied. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 13:38:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:38:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Airborne Greetings - Airplanes Message-ID: --part1_cc.1161aa8d.27cfaaf0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, my dad had a Piper Pacer and V-tail Bonanza almost the same color as in the greeting cards. Brings back a lot of memories. Terry Lucas --part1_cc.1161aa8d.27cfaaf0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, my dad had a Piper Pacer and V-tail Bonanza almost the same color as
in the greeting cards. Brings back a lot of memories.
Terry Lucas --part1_cc.1161aa8d.27cfaaf0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 17:11:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:11:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: <20010301.111138.-394311.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, I think you have it correct. An individual aircraft could abort due to mechanical reasons and generally would salvo the bombs if over enemy territory. The term "abortive Sortie"would apply to the group and they would return with their bombs unless they were acid fused . These would be dropped in the wash off the coast of England. The latter "abortive sortie" was generally weather related. In each case combat time credit was given.( I think) Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 1 23:52:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:52:26 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <001f01c09f7b$59fb2940$720110ac@Betac.com> <3686.983362119@www33.gmx.net> <001e01c0a1d2$4c193b60$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <3A9DE10B.464E5DAF@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <006401c0a2aa$ad01f2e0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Right on! Bernkastel is one of our favorite towns in Germany. It was nothing for us to go through a half dozen or a dozen bottles of Mosel on a weekend when we had friends over. Don't remember getting a headache. But then, you only remember the good things anyway! Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Uwe Wiedemann To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello all > oh yeah, > > driving down the Mosel from Koblenz all the way to Trier, stopping by at those > beautiful castles, having some wine with friends - warm late summer evenings - > watching the trawlers passing along on the river - listening to > nightingales...... > this part of Germany is really worth a trip! > Brian, do you also recall those "Spätlese-headaches"? :) > > Best.... Uwe > > Brian McGuire schrieb: > > > I recall those places in the Mosel region. For many years I would drive to > > the Mosel and fill my car with Mosel Spatleses, my favorite wine at the > > time. Now prefer the Nahes (between BK and Bingen and Rockenhausen). Makes > > me thirsty thinking about it. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Brian McGuire > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bernd Schlüter > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello all > > > > > Off topic: > > > I am just watching Duna televizio, that is the Hungarian TV over > > satellite. > > > I see you all sitting in your old planes. It is a most nice TV report of > > the > > > development of aircrafts and rebuilding of your military mashines into > > civil > > > crafts. Most nice landscapes you can see out of the cockpits of many of > > your > > > mashines. Beginning with Hugo Junkers running across the wings of his Ju, > > a > > > dictator passing by, you can watch the construction of your bigger > > > transportation mashines, especially the DC4, if "haron", that is Hungarian > > language, > > > means "4". Many, many details of your military allday life are shown, > > except of > > > those famous cigarettes, you talked so much about. But I think, no one can > > > estimate the real importance of the cigars to the pilots than You! > > > You see your planes loosing their colour for being reformed into the > > > "Electra" and Superconstallation. You see the "Comets" and "Boeings" > > getting their > > > engines and see the mashines passing all the capitals of the free world... > > > Interisting for me, the Hungarian language is aquainted anyhow with > > Turkish > > > and Finnish, maybe Swedish, too. You know, in former times the real > > "huns", > > > these have been the Hungarians and not the Germans, committed their "air > > > raides" on the back of their planes (=horses) all over the old world. > > > The range of their "mashines" was much higher then that of your P51s! > > > France, the Huns had arrived there, is more then 10,000 miles far from > > > China. > > > Interesting for me is the language, too and I am joinung the university of > > > Duesseldorf today to learn some more languages...Until now there are eight > > > languages, in which I got knowledges, most poor like my English. > > > Well I see now, the film was an american, available in the States, too. > > > > > > In the next weeks I plan to visit our fighter friend, Werner, at the > > Mosel > > > river. > > > For my mother he is only the husband of her girlfriend, but for me it is > > > much more interesting to listen to his experiences in the wartime. > > > Today he is constructing houses and plants for fabrication of Whine all > > over > > > Germany. He is residing in an Architects dream of a house at the most nice > > > place (Marienburg) high above the river Mosel, maybe, someone knows > > "Bullay", > > > "Bitburg" and "Buechel", which is all nearby. Until a few years ago he was > > > still active in flying his own motorized sailingplane. His interest in > > veterans > > > communities of fighters is not too high, as Uwe described, too, and he has > > > to look into one of his many books, before he can answer my technical > > > questions. But if he meets a pilot, anywhere in the world, he is in his > > element...And > > > he travels a lot today, no more lack of fuel and he speaks many languages, > > > too. > > > So, I have to start now to "Moenchengladbach" airport again to fix the > > > electric starter and the GPS to the Trike now. My friend there had had a > > very > > > heavy accident while starting his "Hirth" motor in his hangar and does not > > want > > > to make such an experience a second time. > > > Yesterday we made a trip around with a GPS "Magellan", I think, you all > > will > > > own one of these wonderful compainions developed in your country? I think, > > > in former times you missed it a lot... > > > > > > -- > > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 00:47:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:47:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all Message-ID: <8e.11cba87a.27d047bd@aol.com> I think the word is 'kopfschmerzen". nein??? Taken zie einer Bayer tabletten. Der zooner der bedder. Cheers, Bob and Nyela From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 00:49:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:49:21 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <001e01c0a1d2$4c193b60$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <26548.983494161@www35.gmx.net> Yes, until my friend Werner left his career as Fliegerass, he spent most time piloting the night fighters, Ju188 f.i., far above war, only sometimes disturbed by a very short nearly visit of a spitfire, and he looked around for all those beautiful places around the mediterranian region. And he visited all after the war but found his home at that beautiful place opposite of Bullay (one of you bombed the railway bridge). And he ownes all the better whines and knows their manufacturers personally...And told me about the green salvatours there, who preached to save the animals who like to taste that good whine, too. And they liked it a lot and the next year they had drunk all that whine and the whinefarmers became very angry on the green angels and sent them to hell and so it is until today. One half of the whinefarmers lost their jobs, but those, who produce the best whine, you find them there still today. -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 00:16:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:16:52 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany, William References: <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <7650.983492212@www35.gmx.net> Sorry, I had to leave and did not come to reading. Yes you get crazy with those greens. Here in Northrhine Westfalia you find a special mixture of them, many ones here come from the utmost left and there is much, which is against my nature, too. Most are teachers and the party is just as pupils think about teachers. In the south, in Baden Wuerthemberg, (black forest) I met a different kind of them, really engaged in preserving nature and for living in a sane way. Nourishment has become quite a problem for Europeans, I think, you have heard about our farmers waste industry against any holy commandments. Western Europe is too crowded today to give good food to all humans and the quality of food here is so bad, that all the Japanese and Chinese women here loose the beautiful glare of their hair after 2 years living in Europe and they die with the same much higher rate of cancer than in their homelands. But I think, all these problems are relatively easy to solve, by technics, not by ideologising. So I am planning machines, electronics and even - planes...The wind channel is soon ready for the development of the new generation of fighters armed with heavy guns, the barrels filled up with flowers, of cause. Bernd -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 05:34:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:34:04 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <8e.11cba87a.27d047bd@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A9F30CB.A5FA8EE7@newsfactory.net> You´re right with this word; and, of course, a "Survival kit" for this German region should always contain some Aspirin, made by Bayer. Cheers, Uwe Bhandsr@aol.com schrieb: > I think the word is 'kopfschmerzen". nein??? Taken zie einer Bayer > tabletten. Der zooner der bedder. Cheers, Bob and Nyela > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 14:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:56:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? In-Reply-To: <20010301.111138.-394311.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <3A9F6E3F.28531.9425D8@localhost> > The term "abortive Sortie"would apply to the group and they > would return with their bombs unless they were acid fused . These would > be dropped in the wash off the coast of England. I have a picture of bombs being dropped at sea, near a coastline with an interesting contour, and I'm curious whether this might possibly be the "Wash" , or if this was likely a target that was missed. I uploaded the file to: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/washdrop.html It looks to be too far out from shore to have been a miss, considering the clear weather, so I'm guessing it must be the Wash????? I guess it's asking a lot for anyone to remember if they recognize the shoreline there after all these years. Are these bombs exploding when they hit the water, or is it just splashes you see in the picture? I was just imagining how many un-exploded bombs might be in the water there. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 16:44:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:44:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: <20010302.104407.-644329.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Thanks for sharing the bomb drop photo. The white cliffs, low altitude drop would suggest that it could be the "wash" area. The number of bombs (over 50) indicates that more than one aircraft participated in the drop or it is an incendiary cluster. My guess would be that is the incendiary cluster. I can't tell if the bombs are in the air or just entering the water. My depth perception isn't what it used to be. If it is the cluster the puff of smoke would appear on impact. Sorry I can't be of more help but it has been a long time ago. I still have my Bombardiers' Information File (BIF) and refer to it for help in refreshing my mind etc. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 18:03:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:03:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <3A9F6E3F.28531.9425D8@localhost> Message-ID: <3A9FE07E.CD1CC6CF@attglobal.net> Northeast of Molesworth was the "Wash" with a distinctive shoreline, being almost like an inverted "peninsula" of water extending inland. It was used for dropping bombs which were returned and not dropped on the mission. The "Wash" was also used for the area in which we flew our target planes with B17 gunners practicing thereon. On a few occasions I recall Mel Schulstad flying the "Target" plane while we flew around getting practice for our gunners. I always felt how brave old "Toolshed" was when he flew that target plane with the banner behind it ... Many times during my airline career, we flew along the Wash enroute to North Atlantic Crossings making our landfall across the North Sea from the Amsterdam area, at a place called Ottringham. This also was a reminder of the time I had to bring the remnants of a Group to Elsham Wolds, an RAF Base right at Ottringham. We spent the night at Elsham Wolds not being able to get back to Molesworth. Recently, at Nellis AFB, I met some RAF pilots who told me the Elsham Wolds RAF Base was closed manyh years ago. Cheers! BILL HELLER Bill Jones wrote: > > > The term "abortive Sortie"would apply to the group and they > > would return with their bombs unless they were acid fused . These would > > be dropped in the wash off the coast of England. > > I have a picture of bombs being dropped at sea, near a coastline with an interesting > contour, and I'm curious whether this might possibly be the "Wash" , or if this was > likely a target that was missed. > > I uploaded the file to: > > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/washdrop.html > > It looks to be too far out from shore to have been a miss, considering the clear > weather, so I'm guessing it must be the Wash????? I guess it's asking a lot for > anyone to remember if they recognize the shoreline there after all these years. > > Are these bombs exploding when they hit the water, or is it just splashes you see in > the picture? I was just imagining how many un-exploded bombs might be in the water > there. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 18:26:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:26:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] William P. Maher Message-ID: <20010302182642.2158.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> Hello. My father was 2ndLt William P. Maher, navigator on the Monahan and Joy crews. I discovered this great site just a few days ago. I live in Dallas, TX with my wife and two daughters. My father passed away when I was 3, in the crash of a B36 in Newfoundland. Details are at this web site: http://www.ellsworth.af.mil/~history/basenm.htm (a site which I also just found). Because I never really "knew" him, many of the details of his time in the service were unknown to me. Mom did a great job, telling us (me and my two sisters) of his missions, being shot down over France, and because he knew the French Underground, being transferred back to the states... to Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, where he met her. He continued to serve until his death in 1953. The photos I found at the Monahan and Joy crew sites are wonderful! I have shared them with my sisters, wife, and daughters (and my father-in-law, an old SeaBee) and we love them. If anyone who reads this remembers my dad, please write. And thank you to all who keep this site going. William Patrick Maher III __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 18:31:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:31:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] William P. Maher In-Reply-To: <20010302182642.2158.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A9F8487.5579.1E39D8@localhost> William, I forwared your Guest Book message (and this one) on to Vicki Sykes. Her uncle was David Miller, of the Monahan Crew. She has talked with several relatives of Monahan Crew members and has lot of information about that crew. She's not on this talk list, but will get your message. I'm sure she will contact you. Glad you have you aboard! > Hello. > My father was 2ndLt William P. Maher, navigator on the > Monahan and Joy crews. > > I discovered this great site just a few days ago. I > live in Dallas, TX with my wife and two daughters. > > My father passed away when I was 3, in the crash of a > B36 in Newfoundland. Details are at this web site: > http://www.ellsworth.af.mil/~history/basenm.htm (a > site which I also just found). > > Because I never really "knew" him, many of the details > of his time in the service were unknown to me. Mom did > a great job, telling us (me and my two sisters) of his > missions, being shot down over France, and because he > knew the French Underground, being transferred back to > the states... to Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, > where he met her. He continued to serve until his > death in 1953. > > The photos I found at the Monahan and Joy crew sites > are wonderful! I have shared them with my sisters, > wife, and daughters (and my father-in-law, an old > SeaBee) and we love them. > > If anyone who reads this remembers my dad, please > write. And thank you to all who keep this site going. > > William Patrick Maher III > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 19:30:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:30:04 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until being assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was lost to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often flew as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you were reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I should bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " I know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what was the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for Eastern Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. Best regards, Billy L. Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 2 23:45:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:45:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <7650.983492212@www35.gmx.net> Message-ID: <797.983576751@www14.gmx.net> I started an inquiry for getting informations about the allied pilot, who attacked my pram in world war two: There was really no danger for me and my mother, for someone most fitted for watching from towers saved me and my mother: A neighbour made my mother and me run under the shelter of his factory during that attack near Muelheim-Ruhr in the Ruhrgebiet in february 1945. This Mr. Weissgerber was not only a witness of Jehova, but a witness, that it was a single one seat fighter of the Royal airforce and not an angel of the hell. So I am glad that there will remain no stain neither on the name of Jehova nor on his angles in the hell. It was quite normal in those days that British pilots took single persons, even women with children as welcomed living aims. And it is said, these were exclusivly Polish and Czech highly ambitious pilots serving in the British army. There never would have been the chance to clarify that incidant, for, as I told before, for a two month old boy the small humble bee on that sunny day was much more interesting then the noisy gifts of this eastern European turning go and fro in his hunting plane toward us. Here had come the chance and I state, it is good to have witnesses, maybe of important events and Jehova, too. I looked to the German fighters communities in the web, named by Uwe. I think, there had not been this accuracy of witnesses of airfights f.i. . some German pilots and even their leaders sometimes were said to have had the tendancy to ornate themselves with the glory of others. So there was a huge dicrepancy between the numbers of air battle victories and the downed adversarious planes. The "Reichjaegermeister" is said to have had the tendancy to improve these numbers a second time. So there was stated an "overkill", leading to the incredible use of fighters as bombers with its severe consequences. Hell, its late now, my aligator. -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 09:08:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:08:51 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <3AA0B4A3.31EBCD20@attglobal.net> Bill ... So nice to hear from you. I do recall that midair in early Aprilk of '45. We lost so many good men. It used to be sad to write those letters to the surviving families. But, we won a good war which HAD to be won. The more i review history the more I KNOW we did correctly. I certainly hope you make one of our reunions. They are great and all the fellows look so well kept and trim. Each one i attend, I am amazed. If you have not seen the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah, Ga., and take any trips about this great country ... do see it. It is worth the visit. It is right off I-95 at Savannah. Cheers, old buddy. WCH Bill L Runnels wrote: > Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your > squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a > deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until being > assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was lost > to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often flew > as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you were > reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your > navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and > obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I should > bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " I > know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still > remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the > 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what was > the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for Eastern > Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. > Best regards, > Billy L. Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 16:55:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:55:02 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: --part1_f6.7ce2d2c.27d27be6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All: Here in Brooklyn, NY we worked for CSSI, GSSI, Pinkerton, MVM and Akal. We have never seen anything as bad as Akal. They keep telling you they will do good by you. They lied and lied. They do things you can't believed. Even things that would be good for both the Company and the employees they go against. Good luck to all, let us know what happens. Bill Keane Local 119, VP --part1_f6.7ce2d2c.27d27be6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All:
   Here in Brooklyn, NY we worked for CSSI, GSSI, Pinkerton, MVM and Akal.
We have never seen anything as bad as Akal. They keep telling you they will
do good by you. They lied and lied. They do things you can't believed.
Even things that would be good for both the Company and the employees they go
against.
  Good luck to all, let us know what happens.

     Bill Keane

     Local 119, VP


--part1_f6.7ce2d2c.27d27be6_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 17:00:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:00:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: --part1_d1.321fcd9.27d27d16_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI To All: Sorry, Guys. I must have hit the wrong button. I was trying to sent this to a different list. I will be more careful in the future. Bill in Brooklyn --part1_d1.321fcd9.27d27d16_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI To All:
   Sorry, Guys. I must have hit the wrong button. I was trying to sent
this to a different list. I will be more careful in the future.

Bill in Brooklyn
--part1_d1.321fcd9.27d27d16_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 17:12:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:12:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] micofilm Message-ID: <22.12ac5e1a.27d27fe0@aol.com> --part1_22.12ac5e1a.27d27fe0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: I'm back with a question. If I order microfilm from the Gov. will it list the names of the crew members of each plane. What kind of equipment would I need. Thanks for your help in advance. Bill in Brooklyn --part1_22.12ac5e1a.27d27fe0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
   I'm back with a question. If I order microfilm from the Gov. will it
list the names of the crew members of each plane. What kind of equipment
would I need. Thanks for your help in advance.

Bill in Brooklyn --part1_22.12ac5e1a.27d27fe0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 17:36:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:36:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] micofilm In-Reply-To: <22.12ac5e1a.27d27fe0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AA0E563.5765.14E0F6D@localhost> > Hi To All: > I'm back with a question. If I order microfilm from the Gov. will it > list the names of the crew members of each plane. What kind of equipment > would I need. Thanks for your help in advance. Assuming you are referring to the microfilm sold by Maxwell AFB, see: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/maxwhlp.html They had reels of microfilm for both the 303rdBG, and for the individual squadrons. THe Squadron microfilm had the loading lists for each mission. However a lot of it is really hard to read, ie poor quality. If loading lists are all you want, and it is for 303rd crews, you are better off getting the CDROM, however there are other things on the microfilm, that make it worth having both. Most libraries have microfilm printers, or you can make your own, as I have described at the above URL. I also found a nice film scanner (Pacific Image 1800) that works fairly well on the microfilm, but it helps to have some way of viewing to find out which frames you want to scan. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 18:00:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:00:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] micofilm Message-ID: --part1_b1.7e025ed.27d28b2e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot. I will give it a try. Bill in Brooklyn --part1_b1.7e025ed.27d28b2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot. I will give it a try.
                               Bill in Brooklyn --part1_b1.7e025ed.27d28b2e_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 18:06:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:06:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] re:16 mm. microfilm. Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010303130434.00a939e0@home.1usa.com> Bill, The 16 mm film you talk about, can one view the film on a 16 mm. projector? Ed.Frank. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 20:56:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:56:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] re:16 mm. microfilm. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010303130434.00a939e0@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <3AA11421.26416.DC8C8@localhost> > Bill, The 16 mm film you talk about, can one view the film on a 16 mm. > projector? It might work. THe problem is that the microfilm doesn't have the sprocket holes, so you'd have to turn it manually to a place where the sprockets don't stick out so much, and pull it through by hand. Also, the frames are bigger than the typical 16mm movie film frames, so you wouldn't get the whole frame visible at the same time. Also, the frames are sideways compared to the movie frames, so you'd have to read sideways. Also, you'd need a projector that had a reduced power still setting, so you wouldn't burn up the film. Other than that though it should work, although I haven't tried it. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 3 21:32:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 16:32:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Subject: abortive sorties Message-ID: --part1_d2.328221b.27d2bd0a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This information could help maybe?, these were some of my lost missions that we were not given credit for. 1.) 24 Aug 43 mission #63, diversion 16000 feet-time 6 hr 45 min 2.) 30 Aug 43 mission # 65 recalled time 2hr 10 min, 1 aircraft lost#42-29635 (pilot Monohan) 3.) 2 Sept 43 #FO 90 recall-8th bomber command time 4 hr 4.) 21 Sept 43 #FO 200-203 recall time 2hr 40 min 5.) 26 Sept 43 #FO 207 recall time 4hr 6.) 13 Oct 43 #FO 0219 recall time 2hr 7.) 18 Oct 43 #FO 122 recall time 4hr 25 min 8.) 11 Nov 43 #FO 233 recall -practice mission, called "grapefruit mision", glide bombs time 4hr 30 min 9.) 13 Nov 43 #FO 235 recall time 3 hr 10 min 10.) 30 Nov 43 #FO 241 recall time 4hr 45min 11.) 1 Dec 43 mission # 85 recall time 3hr 55min, target Solingen Germeny, temperature at 26,700 feet was -40 degrees, bombs dropped off through the clouds, 1 aircraft was lost # 42-39781, pilot G.W. Luke Jr.. Luke was the first pilot to enter Stalag 1 12.) 24 Jan 44 mission #FO 229 Christmas party mission recall time 3hr 30 min 13.) 4 Feb 44 mission 104, my records show that target Frankfurt Germany, supercharger trouble- returned- time 1hr, called abortive mission, this was my 22nd combat missions but had 35 total missions Many people had many more missions but only got credit for missions completed Hope this information helps a little. Cheers Bill Bergeron 358th/360th --part1_d2.328221b.27d2bd0a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This information could help maybe?, these were some of my lost missions that
we were not given credit for.
1.)   24 Aug 43 mission #63, diversion 16000 feet-time 6 hr 45 min
2.)   30 Aug 43 mission # 65 recalled time 2hr 10 min, 1 aircraft
lost#42-29635 (pilot
        Monohan)
3.)   2 Sept 43 #FO 90 recall-8th bomber command time 4 hr
4.)   21 Sept 43 #FO 200-203 recall time 2hr 40 min
5.)   26 Sept 43 #FO 207 recall time 4hr
6.)   13 Oct 43 #FO 0219 recall time 2hr
7.)   18 Oct 43 #FO 122 recall time 4hr 25 min
8.)   11 Nov 43 #FO 233 recall -practice mission, called "grapefruit mision",
glide
        bombs time 4hr 30 min
9.)   13 Nov 43 #FO 235 recall time 3 hr 10 min
10.) 30 Nov 43 #FO 241 recall time 4hr 45min
11.)   1 Dec 43 mission # 85 recall time 3hr 55min, target Solingen Germeny,

       temperature at 26,700 feet was -40 degrees, bombs dropped off through
the
       clouds, 1 aircraft was lost # 42-39781, pilot G.W. Luke Jr.. Luke was
the first
       pilot to enter Stalag 1
12.)   24 Jan 44 mission #FO 229 Christmas party mission recall time 3hr 30
min
13.) 4 Feb 44 mission 104, my records show that target Frankfurt Germany,
      supercharger trouble- returned- time 1hr, called abortive mission,
this was my
      22nd combat missions but had 35 total missions
      Many people had many more missions but only got credit for missions
      completed Hope this information helps a little.
      Cheers
      Bill Bergeron 358th/360th
--part1_d2.328221b.27d2bd0a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 04:33:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:33:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] re:16 mm. microfilm. In-Reply-To: <3AA11421.26416.DC8C8@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010303130434.00a939e0@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010303233231.00a9e640@home.1usa.com> Bill, thanks for the reply. Ed. At 03:56 PM 3/3/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Bill, The 16 mm film you talk about, can one view the film on a 16 mm. > > projector? > >It might work. THe problem is that the microfilm doesn't have the >sprocket holes, so >you'd have to turn it manually to a place where the sprockets don't stick >out so much, >and pull it through by hand. > Also, the frames are bigger than the typical 16mm movie film frames, > so you >wouldn't get the whole frame visible at the same time. > > Also, the frames are sideways compared to the movie frames, so you'd > have to read >sideways. > > Also, you'd need a projector that had a reduced power still setting, > so you wouldn't >burn up the film. > >Other than that though it should work, although I haven't tried it. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 09:31:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 01:31:22 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Subject: abortive sorties References: Message-ID: <3AA20B6A.A8339A1B@attglobal.net> --------------045898A22951FA6FE6CE746C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bergie ... Not to worry. i believe there is a lot of the information missing anent a lot of missions. I am on the chart of the "35 Missions" of June of 1944. If I had 35 missions by June of 1944 and went on R&R and returned and stayed to the end of the war, do you think I only flew 2 missions from the time I got back until the war's end? But, to me it does not matter for I really do not know how many missions I flew anyway! Cheers! WCH Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > This information could help maybe?, these were some of my lost > missions that > we were not given credit for. > 1.) 24 Aug 43 mission #63, diversion 16000 feet-time 6 hr 45 min > 2.) 30 Aug 43 mission # 65 recalled time 2hr 10 min, 1 aircraft > lost#42-29635 (pilot > Monohan) > 3.) 2 Sept 43 #FO 90 recall-8th bomber command time 4 hr > 4.) 21 Sept 43 #FO 200-203 recall time 2hr 40 min > 5.) 26 Sept 43 #FO 207 recall time 4hr > 6.) 13 Oct 43 #FO 0219 recall time 2hr > 7.) 18 Oct 43 #FO 122 recall time 4hr 25 min > 8.) 11 Nov 43 #FO 233 recall -practice mission, called "grapefruit > mision", > glide > bombs time 4hr 30 min > 9.) 13 Nov 43 #FO 235 recall time 3 hr 10 min > 10.) 30 Nov 43 #FO 241 recall time 4hr 45min > 11.) 1 Dec 43 mission # 85 recall time 3hr 55min, target Solingen > Germeny, > > temperature at 26,700 feet was -40 degrees, bombs dropped off > through > the > clouds, 1 aircraft was lost # 42-39781, pilot G.W. Luke Jr.. > Luke was > the first > pilot to enter Stalag 1 > 12.) 24 Jan 44 mission #FO 229 Christmas party mission recall time > 3hr 30 > min > 13.) 4 Feb 44 mission 104, my records show that target Frankfurt > Germany, > supercharger trouble- returned- time 1hr, called abortive > mission, > this was my > 22nd combat missions but had 35 total missions > Many people had many more missions but only got credit for > missions > completed Hope this information helps a little. > Cheers > Bill Bergeron 358th/360th --------------045898A22951FA6FE6CE746C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bergie ...

Not to worry. i believe there is a lot of the information missing anent a lot of missions. I am on the chart of the "35 Missions" of June of 1944. If I had 35 missions by June of 1944 and went on R&R and returned and stayed to the end of the war, do you think I only flew 2 missions from the time I got back until the war's end? But, to me it does not matter for I really do not know how many missions I flew anyway!

Cheers!

WCH

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

This information could help maybe?, these were some of my lost missions that
we were not given credit for.
1.)   24 Aug 43 mission #63, diversion 16000 feet-time 6 hr 45 min
2.)   30 Aug 43 mission # 65 recalled time 2hr 10 min, 1 aircraft
lost#42-29635 (pilot
        Monohan)
3.)   2 Sept 43 #FO 90 recall-8th bomber command time 4 hr
4.)   21 Sept 43 #FO 200-203 recall time 2hr 40 min
5.)   26 Sept 43 #FO 207 recall time 4hr
6.)   13 Oct 43 #FO 0219 recall time 2hr
7.)   18 Oct 43 #FO 122 recall time 4hr 25 min
8.)   11 Nov 43 #FO 233 recall -practice mission, called "grapefruit mision",
glide
        bombs time 4hr 30 min
9.)   13 Nov 43 #FO 235 recall time 3 hr 10 min
10.) 30 Nov 43 #FO 241 recall time 4hr 45min
11.)   1 Dec 43 mission # 85 recall time 3hr 55min, target Solingen Germeny,
       temperature at 26,700 feet was -40 degrees, bombs dropped off through
the
       clouds, 1 aircraft was lost # 42-39781, pilot G.W. Luke Jr.. Luke was
the first
       pilot to enter Stalag 1
12.)   24 Jan 44 mission #FO 229 Christmas party mission recall time 3hr 30
min
13.) 4 Feb 44 mission 104, my records show that target Frankfurt Germany,
      supercharger trouble- returned- time 1hr, called abortive mission,
this was my
      22nd combat missions but had 35 total missions
      Many people had many more missions but only got credit for missions
      completed Hope this information helps a little.
      Cheers
      Bill Bergeron 358th/360th

--------------045898A22951FA6FE6CE746C-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 09:50:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 04:50:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> <3AA0B4A3.31EBCD20@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0a490$948899c0$9b194e0c@d2k> Bill, I am going to apologize for "crashing " your message in order to respond to several e-mails sent by Bernd. My computer went down in flames a couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two years. I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to make some people angry. This is the way I see it, and it is just my opinion. Bernd, explain to me why one of the greatest and most civilized nations on Earth could allow someone like Adolf Hitler and his cronies come to power. Explain to me how an entire Nation can "look the other way" when millions of people are slaughtered, starved to death, and used as experimental guinea-pigs. Explain to my mother about the V-2 missle that killed an entire block of her neighbors ( I will not include the really gruesome details). Explain to me why the SS and Gestapo shot whole towns full of people in reprisals. Explain why the English, the Polish, the Belgians, Norwegians, and Dutch did not practice the same methods. They might have had every right to, but they didn't. You make me very unhappy with your selfish comments, Bernd. Ask any soldier no matter what side he was on if he felt that he was doing his duty. But for what, Bernd? The grave yards are full. That is all I have to say, now, or ever again on the subject of your comments. I apologize to everyone who has taken offense at my comments. I especially regret the fact that Uwe will read this. You can tell me to go to hell, but that is how I feel about Bernds' comments. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > Bill ... > > So nice to hear from you. I do recall that midair in early Aprilk of '45. > We lost so many good men. It used to be sad to write those letters to the > surviving families. But, we won a good war which HAD to be won. The more i > review history the more I KNOW we did correctly. > > I certainly hope you make one of our reunions. They are great and all the > fellows look so well kept and trim. Each one i attend, I am amazed. > > If you have not seen the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah, Ga., and > take any trips about this great country ... do see it. It is worth the > visit. It is right off I-95 at Savannah. > > Cheers, old buddy. > > WCH > > > > > > Bill L Runnels wrote: > > > Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your > > squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a > > deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until being > > assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was lost > > to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often flew > > as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you were > > reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your > > navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and > > obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I should > > bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " I > > know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still > > remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the > > 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what was > > the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for Eastern > > Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. > > Best regards, > > Billy L. Runnels > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 13:40:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:40:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: <20010304.074043.-431469.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, I sure can't argue with your comments Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 15:42:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Amram) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:42:02 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID:

My father was a radar tech with the 303rd, 359th squadron at Molesworth. He is now enrolled with your organization and suggested that I would find this talk group very interesting. Thank you

Bob

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 16:04:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:04:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie?......>.. anger over evils of war... In-Reply-To: <000b01c0a490$948899c0$9b194e0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA2214E.14657.E85623@localhost> > ..... My computer went down in flames a > couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two years. > I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of > being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how > we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to > make some people angry. Although I think the original message was probably just trying to evoke an argument, and it is usually better not to respond, your response is probably something that needed to be said. Although it might make some angry, there are probably other people who were angered over the other message, but preferred not to discuss the topic. It will probably make them feel better to have another point of view expressed. I know that my father rarely talked about the war, so I don't know what his opinions were with respect to the enemy soldiers, but I know that the most angry that I ever saw him was when I told him about a conversation I had had with a co-worker who had been a teen-ager in a German factory town during the war, in which we discussed efforts made by the Germans to disguise their factory. My father was angry at me for talking to the "enemy", and said that he considered the civilian population to be as responsible for the war as Hitler was, because they let Hitler and his followers get as far as they did. I've also corresponded with other 8th AF airmen on the internet, who had great respect for the enemy pilots they faced, but had utter disdain for the SS and the Hitler Youth and the government that started and sustained the war. In reading the microfilm records, I've also read accounts of German fighter pilots gunning down US airmen who were floating down to the ground in parachutes, and I'm sure that these accounts made many people bitter against the military as well, and they have every right to be bitter. There are also undoubtedly German civilian and military alike, who experienced some similar evils of war, that they are still angry. Some others are angry at no-one, and would rather forget about the evils of war. But as they say, if you forget about history, you are likely to have to live it over again. But if both sides dwell on their anger over the past events, then things could turn into situations like in the middle east, where generation after generation of peoples are stuck in cycles of inevitable war. The only thing that can be said for sure, is that the war was a nasty thing. We should never forget what happened, and never forget what caused it, but we should remember it as a reminder of something that we should avoid in the future, not as something to keep hatred alive. We should remember and honor the sacrifices made by those of you who fought the war, and make sure that it never happens again. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 16:08:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:08:01 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> <3AA0B4A3.31EBCD20@attglobal.net> <000b01c0a490$948899c0$9b194e0c@d2k> Message-ID: <01be01c0a4c5$4b450160$6d0110ac@Betac.com> P.S. We didn't "let" the Communists take over Eastern Europe; they pushed back the Nazi invaders that slaughtered 30-50 million of their populace (as well as untold numbers in eastern Europe), while we were busy fighting on the western front. We shed our share of blood defeating the Nazis, which was our mission, and had little need to start a war with the Soviet Union. How were we to know what ensuing history would be? One nation was responsible for the Communist takeover in eastern Europe - Germany. As for bombing Germany, volumes have been written about that. It was done for one reason, the same one used for dropping the atomic bomb, to END the war. The reason Germany did not surrender when it was obvious the war was lost was that Hitler refused. He said he would rather see Germany destroyed rather than surrender, so as long as Germany fought the Allies fought back. If Hitler had been removed from power maybe Germany could have been saved, and some Germans - but not enough - realized that and tried to remove him. Blame Hitler for the destruction of the country that started the war, not the Allies. Had no intention to addressing this topic, not sure why I did. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > Bill, I am going to apologize for "crashing " your message in order to > respond to several e-mails sent by Bernd. My computer went down in flames a > couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two years. > I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of > being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how > we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to > make some people angry. This is the way I see it, and it is just my > opinion. > Bernd, explain to me why one of the greatest and most civilized nations on > Earth could allow someone like Adolf Hitler and his cronies come to power. > Explain to me how an entire Nation can "look the other way" when millions > of people are slaughtered, starved to death, and used as experimental > guinea-pigs. > Explain to my mother about the V-2 missle that killed an entire block of > her neighbors ( I will not include the really gruesome details). > Explain to me why the SS and Gestapo shot whole towns full of people in > reprisals. Explain why the English, the Polish, the Belgians, Norwegians, > and Dutch did not practice the same methods. They might have had every > right to, but they didn't. > You make me very unhappy with your selfish comments, Bernd. Ask any soldier > no matter what side he was on if he felt that he was doing his duty. But > for what, Bernd? > The grave yards are full. > That is all I have to say, now, or ever again on the subject of your > comments. I apologize to everyone who has taken offense at my comments. I > especially regret the fact that Uwe will read this. > You can tell me to go to hell, but that is how I feel about Bernds' > comments. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:08 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > > > > Bill ... > > > > So nice to hear from you. I do recall that midair in early Aprilk of '45. > > We lost so many good men. It used to be sad to write those letters to the > > surviving families. But, we won a good war which HAD to be won. The more i > > review history the more I KNOW we did correctly. > > > > I certainly hope you make one of our reunions. They are great and all the > > fellows look so well kept and trim. Each one i attend, I am amazed. > > > > If you have not seen the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah, Ga., > and > > take any trips about this great country ... do see it. It is worth the > > visit. It is right off I-95 at Savannah. > > > > Cheers, old buddy. > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill L Runnels wrote: > > > > > Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your > > > squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a > > > deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until being > > > assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was > lost > > > to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often > flew > > > as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you were > > > reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your > > > navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and > > > obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I > should > > > bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " I > > > know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still > > > remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the > > > 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what was > > > the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for Eastern > > > Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. > > > Best regards, > > > Billy L. Runnels > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 16:25:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:25:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> <3AA0B4A3.31EBCD20@attglobal.net> <000b01c0a490$948899c0$9b194e0c@d2k> Message-ID: <000b01c0a4c7$b8568920$4ef833cf@richards> Hooray Lloyd; You got it right! "Spider" Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > Bill, I am going to apologize for "crashing " your message in order to > respond to several e-mails sent by Bernd. My computer went down in flames a > couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two years. > I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of > being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how > we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to > make some people angry. This is the way I see it, and it is just my > opinion. > Bernd, explain to me why one of the greatest and most civilized nations on > Earth could allow someone like Adolf Hitler and his cronies come to power. > Explain to me how an entire Nation can "look the other way" when millions > of people are slaughtered, starved to death, and used as experimental > guinea-pigs. > Explain to my mother about the V-2 missle that killed an entire block of > her neighbors ( I will not include the really gruesome details). > Explain to me why the SS and Gestapo shot whole towns full of people in > reprisals. Explain why the English, the Polish, the Belgians, Norwegians, > and Dutch did not practice the same methods. They might have had every > right to, but they didn't. > You make me very unhappy with your selfish comments, Bernd. Ask any soldier > no matter what side he was on if he felt that he was doing his duty. But > for what, Bernd? > The grave yards are full. > That is all I have to say, now, or ever again on the subject of your > comments. I apologize to everyone who has taken offense at my comments. I > especially regret the fact that Uwe will read this. > You can tell me to go to hell, but that is how I feel about Bernds' > comments. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:08 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > > > > Bill ... > > > > So nice to hear from you. I do recall that midair in early Aprilk of '45. > > We lost so many good men. It used to be sad to write those letters to the > > surviving families. But, we won a good war which HAD to be won. The more i > > review history the more I KNOW we did correctly. > > > > I certainly hope you make one of our reunions. They are great and all the > > fellows look so well kept and trim. Each one i attend, I am amazed. > > > > If you have not seen the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah, Ga., > and > > take any trips about this great country ... do see it. It is worth the > > visit. It is right off I-95 at Savannah. > > > > Cheers, old buddy. > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill L Runnels wrote: > > > > > Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your > > > squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a > > > deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until being > > > assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was > lost > > > to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often > flew > > > as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you were > > > reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your > > > navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and > > > obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I > should > > > bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " I > > > know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still > > > remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the > > > 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what was > > > the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for Eastern > > > Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. > > > Best regards, > > > Billy L. Runnels > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 16:47:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:47:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? In-Reply-To: <01be01c0a4c5$4b450160$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AA22B67.11462.10FCABA@localhost> > P.S. We didn't "let" the Communists take over Eastern Europe; they pushed > back the Nazi invaders that slaughtered 30-50 million of their populace (as > well as untold numbers in eastern Europe), while we were busy fighting on > the western front. We shed our share of blood defeating the Nazis, which was > our mission, and had little need to start a war with the Soviet Union. How > were we to know what ensuing history would be? One nation was responsible > for the Communist takeover in eastern Europe - Germany. While I don't disagree with what you say, I think the situation in Europe was much more complicated than any of us can hope to understand. I have a very nice book, called "Atlas of the Second World War". One of the maps in this book is a map of Europe showing the movements of people in the periods after the first world war. It is amazing. Literally millions of refugees going in all directions. People migrating out of Russia into Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Bulgaria, Rumania, France, and Germany. Then at the same time, people migrating from Poland, Czechloslavokia, France, and even British territories to Germany, from Germany to Poland, from Rumania, Czechloslavokia, and Yugoslavia into Hungary, from Ukraine into Yugoslavia, from Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece into Turkey, and visa-versa...... on and on..... When you look at this map, and think about the unrest that would be caused by all these refugees flowing from one country to another, it is easy to see how unstable the whole area was, and why it was so easy for Hitler and Stalin to offer stability at the expense of other peoples freedom. Perhaps the one good thing about the Soviet takeover of Europe, is that it might have given all these people a common enemy so that they could forget the problems in the past. However, as we've seen recently, some of the past still hasn't been forgotten. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 17:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dyle Davidson) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Have a good day-- In-Reply-To: William Heller 's message of Sun, 04 Mar 2001 01:31:22 -0800 Message-ID: <28137-3AA27C20-3775@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-26678-2039 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Bill Heller, Just wanted to say "Hi Bill " Dyle Davidson--Richeson's Crew. --WebTV-Mail-26678-2039 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-26678-2039-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 18:08:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:08:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? Message-ID: --part1_a1.11f1bf70.27d3deb4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All: Brian, you are 250% right. Brooklyn Bill --part1_a1.11f1bf70.27d3deb4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All:
Brian, you are 250% right.
                                    Brooklyn Bill --part1_a1.11f1bf70.27d3deb4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 18:14:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:14:35 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <35.11851d33.27d3e00b@cs.com> --part1_35.11851d33.27d3e00b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi regime of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the Soviet Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies chose to impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively believed the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by the Red Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan was. A war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of Eastern Europe would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. Eventually, the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the Soviets would depart Eastern Europe. On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The Germans introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented scale. The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, Coventry, and Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected this technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was only with the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If Hitler had been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further destruction. Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more months the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany. World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened. John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_35.11851d33.27d3e00b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi regime
of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the Soviet
Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies chose to
impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively believed
the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by the Red
Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan was. A
war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of Eastern Europe
would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. Eventually,
the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the Soviets
would depart Eastern Europe.

On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The Germans
introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented scale.
The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, Coventry, and
Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected this
technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was only with
the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If Hitler had
been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further destruction.
Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more months
the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany.

World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened.


John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_35.11851d33.27d3e00b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 18:23:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:23:27 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie?......>.. anger over evils of war... References: <3AA2214E.14657.E85623@localhost> Message-ID: <3AA2881E.72D2CB22@attglobal.net> Bill Jones .... Don't worry about making anyone angry. WE WON and that is all that matters. If we attempt to balance the books on "destruction" let us begin with Coventry, London, Rotterdam, etc., etc. I believe it is time to bury this past and realize that today Germany is one of our staunchest Allies and let it go at that. It was an era, in part, sparked by one man and his "fooled" followers. Tales of "prams" and the like still abound, but in most part are from those who were not there, (or too young to know the truth of the era) as it were. Cheers! WCH Bill Jones wrote: > > > ..... My computer went down in flames a > > couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two years. > > I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of > > being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how > > we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to > > make some people angry. > > Although I think the original message was probably just trying to evoke an argument, > and it is usually better not to respond, your response is probably something that > needed to be said. Although it might make some angry, there are probably other > people who were angered over the other message, but preferred not to discuss the > topic. It will probably make them feel better to have another point of view expressed. > I know that my father rarely talked about the war, so I don't know what his opinions > were with respect to the enemy soldiers, but I know that the most angry that I ever > saw him was when I told him about a conversation I had had with a co-worker who had > been a teen-ager in a German factory town during the war, in which we discussed > efforts made by the Germans to disguise their factory. My father was angry at me for > talking to the "enemy", and said that he considered the civilian population to be as > responsible for the war as Hitler was, because they let Hitler and his followers get as > far as they did. > I've also corresponded with other 8th AF airmen on the internet, who had great > respect for the enemy pilots they faced, but had utter disdain for the SS and the Hitler > Youth and the government that started and sustained the war. In reading the microfilm > records, I've also read accounts of German fighter pilots gunning down US airmen who > were floating down to the ground in parachutes, and I'm sure that these accounts > made many people bitter against the military as well, and they have every right to be > bitter. There are also undoubtedly German civilian and military alike, who experienced > some similar evils of war, that they are still angry. > Some others are angry at no-one, and would rather forget about the evils of war. > But as they say, if you forget about history, you are likely to have to live it over again. > But if both sides dwell on their anger over the past events, then things could turn into > situations like in the middle east, where generation after generation of peoples are > stuck in cycles of inevitable war. > The only thing that can be said for sure, is that the war was a nasty thing. We > should never forget what happened, and never forget what caused it, but we should > remember it as a reminder of something that we should avoid in the future, not as > something to keep hatred alive. We should remember and honor the sacrifices made > by those of you who fought the war, and make sure that it never happens again. > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 18:27:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:27:55 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? References: <20010302.133006.-545769.0.billrunnels@juno.com> <3AA0B4A3.31EBCD20@attglobal.net> <000b01c0a490$948899c0$9b194e0c@d2k> <01be01c0a4c5$4b450160$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AA2892A.CB1D2133@attglobal.net> BRIAN McGIRE .... WELL SAID! Cheers! BILL HELLER Brian McGuire wrote: > P.S. We didn't "let" the Communists take over Eastern Europe; they pushed > back the Nazi invaders that slaughtered 30-50 million of their populace (as > well as untold numbers in eastern Europe), while we were busy fighting on > the western front. We shed our share of blood defeating the Nazis, which was > our mission, and had little need to start a war with the Soviet Union. How > were we to know what ensuing history would be? One nation was responsible > for the Communist takeover in eastern Europe - Germany. > > As for bombing Germany, volumes have been written about that. It was done > for one reason, the same one used for dropping the atomic bomb, to END the > war. The reason Germany did not surrender when it was obvious the war was > lost was that Hitler refused. He said he would rather see Germany destroyed > rather than surrender, so as long as Germany fought the Allies fought back. > If Hitler had been removed from power maybe Germany could have been saved, > and some Germans - but not enough - realized that and tried to remove him. > Blame Hitler for the destruction of the country that started the war, not > the Allies. > > Had no intention to addressing this topic, not sure why I did. > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lloyd J Grant > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:50 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > > > Bill, I am going to apologize for "crashing " your message in order to > > respond to several e-mails sent by Bernd. My computer went down in flames > a > > couple of days ago, and I lost everything I have been saving for two > years. > > I am going to respond to Bernds' messages inwhich he retells the story of > > being shot at in his pram, how we bombed hell out of his country, and how > > we let the Communists take over most of Europe... I am probably going to > > make some people angry. This is the way I see it, and it is just my > > opinion. > > Bernd, explain to me why one of the greatest and most civilized nations on > > Earth could allow someone like Adolf Hitler and his cronies come to power. > > Explain to me how an entire Nation can "look the other way" when millions > > of people are slaughtered, starved to death, and used as experimental > > guinea-pigs. > > Explain to my mother about the V-2 missle that killed an entire block of > > her neighbors ( I will not include the really gruesome details). > > Explain to me why the SS and Gestapo shot whole towns full of people in > > reprisals. Explain why the English, the Polish, the Belgians, Norwegians, > > and Dutch did not practice the same methods. They might have had every > > right to, but they didn't. > > You make me very unhappy with your selfish comments, Bernd. Ask any > soldier > > no matter what side he was on if he felt that he was doing his duty. But > > for what, Bernd? > > The grave yards are full. > > That is all I have to say, now, or ever again on the subject of your > > comments. I apologize to everyone who has taken offense at my comments. > I > > especially regret the fact that Uwe will read this. > > You can tell me to go to hell, but that is how I feel about Bernds' > > comments. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Heller" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] abortive vs abortive sortie? > > > > > > > Bill ... > > > > > > So nice to hear from you. I do recall that midair in early Aprilk of > '45. > > > We lost so many good men. It used to be sad to write those letters to > the > > > surviving families. But, we won a good war which HAD to be won. The more > i > > > review history the more I KNOW we did correctly. > > > > > > I certainly hope you make one of our reunions. They are great and all > the > > > fellows look so well kept and trim. Each one i attend, I am amazed. > > > > > > If you have not seen the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah, Ga., > > and > > > take any trips about this great country ... do see it. It is worth the > > > visit. It is right off I-95 at Savannah. > > > > > > Cheers, old buddy. > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill L Runnels wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Bill, it is good to see your name again. I was assigned to your > > > > squadron early in 1945 and completed 14 missions, the last three as a > > > > deputy lead bombardier. I was part of the Howard Lacker Crew until > being > > > > assigned to the lead status. As you may remember the Lacker Crew was > > lost > > > > to a midair collision on April 6, 1945. While on lead status I often > > flew > > > > as navigator when a minimum crew was required. On one such day you > were > > > > reviewing the squadron formation on a training flight. I was your > > > > navigator. The squadron wasn't even close to where they should be and > > > > obviously lost. I didn't say anything for some time then thought I > > should > > > > bring it to your attention. I did and your response was and I quote, " > I > > > > know and they have been lost for the past 30 minutes".HA I still > > > > remember you as a great Commander. Some day I hope to make one of the > > > > 360th Reunions. It would be good to see you again. By the way what > was > > > > the name of the Administrative Officer? He had been a pilot for > Eastern > > > > Airlines. I flew as his navigator several time.. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Billy L. Runnels > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 18:38:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:38:30 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <35.11851d33.27d3e00b@cs.com> Message-ID: <3AA28BA5.56A584C9@attglobal.net> --------------EFDBA570841D1E39DCDCB8C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ... Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. German soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler, served their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our finest allies. It is quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on the offspring ... it is sort of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery in the US! Both have been corrected and we should let it lie and move forward. If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do we blame that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX president blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years? I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I feel that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one Hitler. We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. Let us let it rest. And while I, for one, who will always remember the refrain of "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on. Cheers, Old buddy! BILL HELLER JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi > regime > of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the > Soviet > Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies > chose to > impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively > believed > the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by the > Red > Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan > was. A > war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of Eastern > Europe > would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. > Eventually, > the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the > Soviets > would depart Eastern Europe. > > On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The Germans > introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented > scale. > The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, > Coventry, and > Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected > this > technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was > only with > the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If > Hitler had > been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further > destruction. > Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more > months > the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany. > > World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened. > > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------EFDBA570841D1E39DCDCB8C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ...

Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. German soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler, served their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our finest allies. It is quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on the offspring ... it is sort of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery in the US! Both have been corrected and we should let it lie and move forward.

If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do we blame that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX president blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years?

I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I feel that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one Hitler. We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. Let us let it rest. And while I, for one, who will always remember the refrain of "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on.

Cheers, Old buddy!

BILL HELLER

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi regime
of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the Soviet
Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies chose to
impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively believed
the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by the Red
Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan was. A
war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of Eastern Europe
would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. Eventually,
the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the Soviets
would depart Eastern Europe.
On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The Germans
introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented scale.
The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, Coventry, and
Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected this
technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was only with
the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If Hitler had
been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further destruction.
Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more months
the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany.
World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened.

John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA 98052 USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------EFDBA570841D1E39DCDCB8C3-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 19:00:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:00:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time Message-ID: Hi You All, I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my last birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and Copilots, Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you met your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without an instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is satisfactory. Any other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be appreciated. Thank You. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 19:29:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:29:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <35.11851d33.27d3e00b@cs.com> <3AA28BA5.56A584C9@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0a4e1$6c36c720$19914d0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A4B7.829754A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right on , Bill Heller! I wholeheartedly agree. Enough said. Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Heller=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era John Jenkins ...=20 Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. = German soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of = Hitler, served their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our = finest allies. It is quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on = the offspring ... it is sort of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery = in the US! Both have been corrected and we should let it lie and move = forward.=20 If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do we = blame that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX = president blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years?=20 I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I = feel that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one = Hitler. We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. = Let us let it rest. And while I, for one, who will always remember the = refrain of "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on.=20 Cheers, Old buddy!=20 BILL HELLER=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:=20 I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi = regime=20 of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the = Soviet=20 Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies = chose to=20 impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively = believed=20 the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by = the Red=20 Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan = was. A=20 war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of = Eastern Europe=20 would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. = Eventually,=20 the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the = Soviets=20 would depart Eastern Europe.=20 On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The = Germans=20 introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented = scale.=20 The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, = Coventry, and=20 Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected = this=20 technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was = only with=20 the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If = Hitler had=20 been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further = destruction.=20 Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few = more months=20 the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany.=20 World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened.=20 =20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A4B7.829754A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Right on , Bill Heller! I = wholeheartedly=20 agree. Enough said. Lloyd.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Heller
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com =

Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 = 1:38=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, = Germany,=20 & the Postwar Era

John Jenkins ...=20
Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. = German=20 soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler, = served=20 their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our finest allies. It = is=20 quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on the offspring ... it = is sort=20 of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery in the US! Both have = been=20 corrected and we should let it lie and move forward.=20
If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do = we blame=20 that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX president = blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years?=20
I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I = feel=20 that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one = Hitler. =20 We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. Let us = let it=20 rest. And while I, for one, who will always remember the refrain = of=20 "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on.=20
Cheers, Old buddy!=20
BILL HELLER=20
JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:=20
I concur = with Brian=20 McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi = regime=20
of Hitler the US and Britain = temporarily=20 allied themselves with the Soviet
Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile = Soviet=20 allies chose to
impose=20 communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively=20 believed
the = Soviets would=20 respect the desires of the countries occupied by the = Red=20
Army. In short order it = became=20 fairly obvious what the Soviet plan was. A =
war with the Soviets at the close of = WWII to clear=20 them out of Eastern Europe
would have been extremely unpopular. People were = tired of=20 war. Eventually,
the=20 Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the=20 Soviets
would = depart=20 Eastern Europe.=20
On the issue of bombing, I = want to mention=20 a few points. The Germans
introduced this method of warfare to the world on an = unprecedented=20 scale.
The = places that=20 immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, Coventry, = and=20
Warsaw. As the war = progressed the=20 US and British merely perfected this
technique. The Germans could have = surrendered=20 at any time. It was only with
the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in = Europe. =20 If Hitler had
been=20 dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further=20 destruction.
Incidentally,=20 if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more = months=20
the first atomic bomb would = have=20 detonated in Germany.=20
World War II is over, but let = us not=20 forget what happened.
=20
John = A.=20 Jenkins=20
6910 Old Redmond=20 Road
Redmond, WA = 98052 =20 USA=20
Phone (425)=20 = 885-0595

= ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A4B7.829754A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 19:31:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:31:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: Message-ID: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT LAKE CITY TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED HOURS IN 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY AND PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS CORNER IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN IRISHMAN INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. KEEP EM FLYING SPIDER SMITH ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > Hi You All, > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my last > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and Copilots, > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you met > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without an > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is satisfactory. Any > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be > appreciated. Thank You. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 19:32:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:32:35 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253@cs.com> --part1_9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, The purpose of my email was to review some historical facts concerning WWII that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and immediately after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi regime. I do not have anything against the German people as individuals. I have been to Germany and did not encounter any problems while traveling about. However, it is still somewhat unnerving to view the iron cross being displayed on current Luftwaffe aircraft. As far as the previous presidential administration is concerned, all that I can say about that era is that some village in Arkansas was deprived of an idiot for eight years. I should not say any more than that as some people actually thought of Clinton as a great president. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller,
      The purpose of my email was to review some historical facts concerning
WWII that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the
suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and immediately
after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi regime. I do not
have anything against the German people as individuals. I have been to
Germany and did not encounter any problems while traveling about. However,
it is still somewhat unnerving to view the iron cross being displayed on
current Luftwaffe aircraft.

      As far as the previous presidential administration is concerned, all
that I can say about that era is that some village in Arkansas was deprived
of an idiot for eight years. I should not say any more than that as some
people actually thought of Clinton as a great president.

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 20:04:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:04:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <20010304.140439.-431597.0.billrunnels@juno.com> I happen to be one!---Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 20:42:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:42:28 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253@cs.com> Message-ID: <3AA2A8B3.66BE5BFC@attglobal.net> --------------86AA5FED4F3C4CFB608A7871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ... FYI the Iron Cross (of the Maltese variety) on German military aircraft has nothing to do with the Nazi era. Cheers! BILL HELLER JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller, > The purpose of my email was to review some historical facts > concerning > WWII that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the > > suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and > immediately > after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi regime. I > do not > have anything against the German people as individuals. I have been > to > Germany and did not encounter any problems while traveling about. > However, > it is still somewhat unnerving to view the iron cross being displayed > on > current Luftwaffe aircraft. > > As far as the previous presidential administration is concerned, > all > that I can say about that era is that some village in Arkansas was > deprived > of an idiot for eight years. I should not say any more than that as > some > people actually thought of Clinton as a great president. > > Regards, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------86AA5FED4F3C4CFB608A7871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ...

FYI the Iron Cross (of the Maltese variety) on German military aircraft has nothing to do with the Nazi era.

Cheers!

BILL HELLER

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller,
      The purpose of my email was to review some historical facts concerning
WWII that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the
suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and immediately
after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi regime. I do not
have anything against the German people as individuals. I have been to
Germany and did not encounter any problems while traveling about. However,
it is still somewhat unnerving to view the iron cross being displayed on
current Luftwaffe aircraft.
      As far as the previous presidential administration is concerned, all
that I can say about that era is that some village in Arkansas was deprived
of an idiot for eight years. I should not say any more than that as some
people actually thought of Clinton as a great president.
Regards,
John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------86AA5FED4F3C4CFB608A7871-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 20:50:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:50:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, the Postwar Era & Clinton Message-ID: <80.7a62d89.27d404a4@cs.com> --part1_80.7a62d89.27d404a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Runnells, That is the beauty of this country. Everyone is entitled to express their opinion. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.7a62d89.27d404a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Runnells,
That is the beauty of this country. Everyone is entitled to express
their opinion.

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA 98052 USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.7a62d89.27d404a4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 21:04:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:04:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, B-17 time Message-ID: I graduated from flight school August 30, 1943, and reported to Peyote, Texas, Rattlesnake Bomber Base about September 3 or 4, where I was assigned to a crew as Copilot with "0" time in a B-17. My pilot had been to B-17 transition and had about 150 or 200 hours in a B-17. After training at Peyote then Dalhart, Texas I logged at least 200 hours by the time our training was completed and we were on the way to the ETO in late December 1943. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 21:22:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:22:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3AA24FB0.32617.19A6632@localhost> > HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you met > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without an > instructor or check pilot aboard? Jack, According to my dad's log book and journal, he had 122 hours in a B-17 before he had his crew assigned. He had 3 months training at Hobbs, then has his crew assigned in Pyote. His checkout was with a Capt Steineman, three days before his first flight with his crew. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 23:45:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:45:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] CD Rom Message-ID: <20010304234513.75135.qmail@web9306.mail.yahoo.com> I just recived the 303rd CD Rom yesterday, sat down with Dad and spent a whole afternoon searching for his lost mission records. Here are a few observations. First let me say this was an incredible undertaking, the way the CD turned out is fantastic. Thanks to all involved!!! First disapointment, the realization that USAAF record keeping was a horror! NOW I know why Dad's mission record was so hard to track down... they have his last name as HOOLRITE instead of HOLLRITT for every mission he flew :o How did that happen? Did the person transferring the information do that? Or is that how it's typed on the original USAAF paperwork? I was able to trace about 23 missions that he flew on with the 427th Sq (22 more than I had information on prior woopee - years ago Maxwell AFB sent me D-Day mission reports with his crew photo and his name was spelled properly on their microfilm)He is totally missing from the Might In Flight book (Both spelling's) After reading his mission record I now know why I am sitting here sending this out to you guys today, He was LUCKY as HELL! His first raid was on 5/30/44 and he racked up a fast total of short hops to France and finished his tour somewhere around the end of 8/44. Some really rough deep penatration missions mixed in, but he lucked out with some Milk-Runs most of the time. When they flew with the PFF pool with the 305th is where gaps pop up. My search continues... Thanks to all for keeping the 303rd BG Hells Angels flying, has any other ETO Bomb Group come close to this level of historic detail? None that I know of. Second disapointment... What's up with the photo gallery. It's a strange collection of random images, With all the great 303rd wartime photos and recent paintings of the 303rd I was surprised at this format (WWII Posters and random pictures). Don't get me wrong! I love the rare new stuff I found mixed in there, but it's still a strange mixed bag of images. With the magnatute of this project I understand how difficult it was to compile all this information. Thanks to everyone involved for a job well done!!!!! Sorry I rambled, I step down from my soapbox :) Todd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 4 23:45:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:45:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany Message-ID: <69.11f48ecb.27d42d90@aol.com> On one of the many Informational Films that we were compelled to view as Air Force Combat people was a collection of films from gunsight aiming point cameras....movies taken which show the path of gunfire from the attacking plane. On one particular sequence, a fighter plane was shown to be attacking a woman running with a baby carriage. It was stated that the pilot in question was found guilty of "rules of war" and imprisoned in Leavenworth KS for life. For your information. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 00:10:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:10:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Hey Bill Keane....any relation to Vera Keane, one of five daughters? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 00:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:35:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CD Rom In-Reply-To: <20010304234513.75135.qmail@web9306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AA27CE5.31555.24B0155@localhost> > First disapointment, the realization that USAAF > record keeping was a horror! NOW I know why Dad's > mission record was so hard to track down... they have > his last name as HOOLRITE instead of HOLLRITT for Todd, I forwared your full message on the Ed and Linda, the CD team. I can vouch for the bad spelling and record keeping as I proofread several of the missions. Linda was working off records that were carboned and copied. I don't know how often they changed the carbon paper, but not often enough. One squadron (seems like the 427th) mostly used initials rather than first names for the crewmen, which caused a real problem. I think the 18-20 year old clerk typists had no idea of the historic records they were preserving. From what I understand, the 303rd records (bad as they may be) are by far the best of any bomb group. Just yesterday I added a crew photo to the web where the pilot's name was spelled wrong on his crew photo. I've seen that about 20 times on the crew photos I put on the web page. Ed and Linda are keeping track of all the errors noted and should have them corrected if there is a second edition. Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 02:04:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:04:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <20010304.200452.-447727.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill Heller, your benevolent attitude toward the former enemy is admirable but I can't say much for your assessment of our former President. You are out of line, sir. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 02:33:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:33:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics Message-ID: <3AA29881.32427.2B6E069@localhost> Current politics are off-topic and have no place here here on 303rd- Talk. Please keep discussions limited to WWII, B17, 303rd, etc topics. Thank you, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 02:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:41:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics References: <3AA29881.32427.2B6E069@localhost> Message-ID: <000801c0a51d$ccb62e60$51f833cf@richards> THANKS GARY! SPIDER SMITH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:33 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics > Current politics are off-topic and have no place here here on 303rd- > Talk. Please keep discussions limited to WWII, B17, 303rd, etc > topics. > > Thank you, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 02:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:54:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics Message-ID: <20010304.205411.-446463.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Gary, thanks for the reminder. It was needed. Regards, Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 06:27:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 01:27:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <42.11897d01.27d48be4@aol.com> Bill Heller, I completely agree with you on both counts. Thanks for putting it so well said. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 08:52:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:52:41 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <20010304.200452.-447727.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <3AA353D9.33B15FE0@attglobal.net> Bill Runnels ... My assessment of our former president is MY assessment of the most despicable person to ever occupy the White House. I am entitiled to this assessment. George Will said it best. He said, "Clinton was not the worst president ever to occupy the White House, he was just the WORST person to ever occupy the White House. Anyone who served in the military and has any respect for the EX president .... is, oh well .... Cheers! WCH Bill L Runnels wrote: > Bill Heller, your benevolent attitude toward the former enemy is > admirable but I can't say much for your assessment of our former > President. You are out of line, sir. > Bill Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 08:53:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:53:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <42.11897d01.27d48be4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AA3540C.9778F98@attglobal.net> Thanks, Jack. WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller, I completely agree with you on both counts. Thanks for putting > it so well said. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 08:59:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:59:14 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics References: <3AA29881.32427.2B6E069@localhost> Message-ID: <3AA35562.4D78B64C@attglobal.net> Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to speak one's mind on any subject. However, having been warned, such rule will be obeyed. Cheers! WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > Current politics are off-topic and have no place here here on 303rd- > Talk. Please keep discussions limited to WWII, B17, 303rd, etc > topics. > > Thank you, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 13:50:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:50:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Message-ID: <28.11fe9a6f.27d4f393@aol.com> --part1_28.11fe9a6f.27d4f393_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From mort Moon to the admirer of our past you know what. I am 80 yrs old and have a lot of repect for the president but the clinton and his drag are the worst example and would shoud not have these types in the whitehouse. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Mort Moon assist crew chief of the Knockout dropper --part1_28.11fe9a6f.27d4f393_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From mort Moon to the admirer of our past you know what. I am 80 yrs old and
have a lot of repect for the president but the clinton and his drag are the
worst example and would shoud not have these types in the whitehouse. So put
that in your pipe and smoke it. Mort Moon assist crew chief of the Knockout
dropper --part1_28.11fe9a6f.27d4f393_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 16:41:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:41:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill Clinton Message-ID: Bob: I'm only 44, but one of the first times I saw Clinton live and on TV was for the 50th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor. In his address at the Punch Bowl, he referred to the USS Missouri as an aircraft carrier. I knew at that precise moment he and his white house cronies couldn't give a shit about the past and he lived up to my expectations. Then the Enola Gay/Smithsonian controvery, then the Hisroshima Stamp. He forgot about our veterans to favor the Japs! I have been fortunate to travel all over the world and so many foriegners can not believe we would have allowed such an immoral SOB to occupy the most powerful seat in the world. I agree. What has happened to our country? We catch the Pres. with his pants down. That doesn't bother me so much as him appearing before the people of these United States and lying in our faces. If he had just told the truth, maybe I would have the least little shred of respect for him, but as it is, I think he should be jailed for the crimes he committed. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era >Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:52:41 -0800 > >Bill Runnels ... > >My assessment of our former president is MY assessment of the most >despicable person to ever occupy the White House. I am entitiled to >this assessment. George Will said it best. He said, "Clinton was not the >worst president ever to occupy the White House, he was just the WORST >person to ever occupy the White House. Anyone who served in the military >and has any respect for the EX president .... is, oh well .... > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Bill L Runnels wrote: > > > Bill Heller, your benevolent attitude toward the former enemy is > > admirable but I can't say much for your assessment of our former > > President. You are out of line, sir. > > Bill Runnels > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 18:46:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:46:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton In-Reply-To: <3AA35562.4D78B64C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3AA37C98.25298.10A96D@localhost> > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > speak one's mind on any subject. You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed up stated the rules. You can read them again here: http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership here is a privilege, not a right. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 18:04:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JOHN W. FORD) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:04:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <001801c0a59e$be3c1bc0$122b550c@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0A56C.6D71CF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GARY - PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE 303RD TALK AS I WILL BE DOING SOME = TRAVELING THIS SPRING AND SUMMER JOHN FORD ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0A56C.6D71CF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

GARY - PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE = 303RD TALK AS I=20 WILL BE DOING SOME TRAVELING THIS SPRING AND SUMMER

JOHN FORD

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0A56C.6D71CF00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 19:39:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:39:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <3AA37C98.25298.10A96D@localhost> Message-ID: <000501c0a5ac$10c863a0$91194e0c@d2k> A privelege, Gary , that I think all of us are greatly in your debt for providing. Your point is well made. I read the rules when I joined. If I get out of line with any comment I make , or question I ask, I hope someone will let me know (as politely, but as firmly as need be). Thanks for the work you have put into providing this forum, Gary. I don't think anyone here will ever intentionally abuse it. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton > > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > > speak one's mind on any subject. > > You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not > here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list > on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can > imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current > one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related > topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed > up stated the rules. You can read them again here: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a > friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. > > I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a > friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership > here is a privilege, not a right. > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 18:15:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:15:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Message-ID: <005b01c0a5a0$3ac4cba0$3b194e0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0A576.4DC73A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This question is designed with Garys' advice in mind, I hope it elicits = some response because I have a real curiousity. At one time my father had an entire box of photographs, some of targets = being bombed , some of aircraft in trouble, or going down, pictures of = crews and so on. ( It appears this box is irrevokably lost, tho a few = photos survived). Did you have to have a "need to know" , or some other = form of permission to obtain these photos? It seems like everyone I = talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would be permitted to = send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were the photos issued = for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were they souveniers = of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they may have been = somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I look forward = to hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0A576.4DC73A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This question is designed with Garys' = advice in=20 mind, I hope it elicits some response because I have a real=20 curiousity.

At one time my father had an entire box = of=20 photographs, some of targets being bombed , some of aircraft in trouble, = or=20 going down, pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is = irrevokably=20 lost, tho a few photos survived). Did you have to have a "need to = know" ,=20 or some other form of permission to obtain these photos? It seems = like=20 everyone I talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would be=20 permitted to send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were = the photos=20 issued for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were they = souveniers=20 of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they may have been = somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I look = forward to=20 hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. =20 Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0A576.4DC73A00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:09:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:09:26 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <3AA37C98.25298.10A96D@localhost> Message-ID: <3AA40087.7F3D1D9D@attglobal.net> GLM ... Understood. WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > > speak one's mind on any subject. > > You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not > here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list > on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can > imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current > one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related > topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed > up stated the rules. You can read them again here: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a > friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. > > I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a > friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership > here is a privilege, not a right. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:30:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:30:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Installation of new landing gear. Message-ID: <001f01c0a5bb$7eacdfe0$b21b4e0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C0A591.9159DB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone news on Hal Susskind. I would like to know how he's doing. = LG. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C0A591.9159DB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anyone news on Hal Susskind. = I would like=20 to know how he's doing. LG.

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C0A591.9159DB40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:31:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:31:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Installation of new landing gear. In-Reply-To: <001f01c0a5bb$7eacdfe0$b21b4e0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA3A348.17355.A7CE62@localhost> > > Has anyone news on Hal Susskind. I would like to know how he's doing. LG. > I believe he got out of the hospital last Wednesday. His wife Rae told us it would be a slow recovery and he would have some home care for a while. I'll let you know if we hear more. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:53:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:53:33 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> Message-ID: <00a101c0a5bf$7bf404a0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Spider - Who won?? Brian MCGUIRE (McGuire!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT LAKE CITY > TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED HOURS IN > 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY AND > PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS CORNER > IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN IRISHMAN > INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. > KEEP EM FLYING > SPIDER SMITH > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; > ; ; ; > ; > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > Hi You All, > > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my last > > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and Copilots, > > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you met > > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without an > > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is satisfactory. > Any > > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be > > appreciated. Thank You. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:56:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:56:11 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <9c.c2fa0bf.27d3f253@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a601c0a5bf$7d961be0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0A5BF.178B0FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wonder if y'all realize that Clinton may be rated higher as a president = than as I governor? I read somewhere that he was rated 49th (out of 50, = of course) as governor when he was governor of Arkansas. However, he can = be rated no lower than 43rd as a President!! Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era Bill Heller,=20 The purpose of my email was to review some historical facts = concerning=20 WWII that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the = suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and = immediately=20 after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi regime. I = do not=20 have anything against the German people as individuals. I have been = to=20 Germany and did not encounter any problems while traveling about. = However,=20 it is still somewhat unnerving to view the iron cross being displayed = on=20 current Luftwaffe aircraft.=20 As far as the previous presidential administration is concerned, = all=20 that I can say about that era is that some village in Arkansas was = deprived=20 of an idiot for eight years. I should not say any more than that as = some=20 people actually thought of Clinton as a great president.=20 Regards,=20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0A5BF.178B0FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wonder if y'all realize that Clinton may be = rated higher=20 as a president than as I governor? I read somewhere that he was rated = 49th (out=20 of 50, of course) as governor when he was governor of Arkansas. However, = he can=20 be rated no lower than 43rd as a President!!

Brian McGuire

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20

To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com

Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 = 7:32=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, = Germany,=20 & the Postwar Era

Bill Heller, =
      The=20 purpose of my email was to review some historical facts concerning =
WWII=20 that I believed were worth mentioning. Much of the blame for the =
suffering and destruction which occurred in Europe during and = immediately=20
after WWII can be placed at the feet of Hitler and his Nazi = regime.=20 I do not
have anything against the German people as = individuals.=20 I have been to
Germany and did not encounter any problems = while=20 traveling about. However,
it is still somewhat unnerving to = view the=20 iron cross being displayed on
current Luftwaffe aircraft.=20

      As far as the previous=20 presidential administration is concerned, all
that I can say about = that=20 era is that some village in Arkansas was deprived
of an idiot for = eight=20 years. I should not say any more than that as some
people = actually=20 thought of Clinton as a great president.

Regards, =

John A. = Jenkins=20

6910 Old=20 Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA =

Phone=20 (425) 885-0595 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0A5BF.178B0FE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 21:57:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:57:40 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, B-17 time References: Message-ID: <00a701c0a5bf$7fb6d900$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Bill - Good article on Rattlesnake air patch in current issue of Fly Past magazine. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:04 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, B-17 time > I graduated from flight school August 30, 1943, and reported to Peyote, > Texas, Rattlesnake Bomber Base about September 3 or 4, where I was assigned > to a crew as Copilot with "0" time in a B-17. My pilot had been to B-17 > transition and had about 150 or 200 hours in a B-17. After training at Peyote > then Dalhart, Texas I logged at least 200 hours by the time our training was > completed > and we were on the way to the ETO in late December 1943. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:06:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:06:57 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics References: <3AA29881.32427.2B6E069@localhost> Message-ID: <00df01c0a5c0$99f2bd60$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Good point well said, Gary. I wish to withdraw my last inappropriate e-mail. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 2:33 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics > Current politics are off-topic and have no place here here on 303rd- > Talk. Please keep discussions limited to WWII, B17, 303rd, etc > topics. > > Thank you, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:09:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton Message-ID: <49.83ed0d8.27d5688f@aol.com> glad this was said again. i was tempted to resond harshly, but held my tongue. glad bill and gary keep pulse on this privileged site for 303rd. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:09:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:09:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton Message-ID: <60.c29e035.27d568af@aol.com> word is respond. oops!spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 18:00:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website Message-ID: <005001c0a59e$3a2fc980$3b194e0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C0A574.50C43840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: pyker=20 To: Lloyd J Grant=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM Subject: RE: Your website Grant, Many thanks for the message. Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all = the enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in = France. Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force = which is quite gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way = of memorials etc. Please give my fondest regards to Spider. Peter *************************************** Peter Randall mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk Little Friends home page: http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall *************************************** -----Original Message----- From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 To: pyker@dircon.co.uk Subject: Your website Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk = forum. Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, = but I am very impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have = bookmarked the site and will return when I can devote my full attention. My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. =20 Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put = into this page. Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C0A574.50C43840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- Original Message -----=20

From: pyker =

To: Lloyd J Grant

Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM

Subject: RE: Your website

Grant,

Many thanks for=20 the message.

Sorry for the=20 delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all the enquiries = about the=20 finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in France. Pretty = certain now=20 that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is quite gratifying that = we can=20 do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials etc.

Please give my=20 fondest regards to Spider.

Peter

***************************************
Peter=20 Randall

mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk

L= ittle=20 Friends home page:
http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk=

Fighting=20 Scouts of the 8th Air Force:
http://homepages.tesco.net= /~j.randall

***************************************
=

-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd J Grant=20 [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: 17 February 2001=20 23:47
To: pyker@dircon.co.uk
Subject: Your=20 website

Was referred here by Dick "Spider" = Smith from the=20 303rd BGA talk forum. Not enough time on hand to give it = anything but a=20 quick look, but I am very impressed by what you have accomplished = here. =20 I have bookmarked the site and will return when I can devote my full=20 attention.

My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum = was from=20 Cambridge.

Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the = tribute and=20 the effort you put into this page.

Lloyd Grant. Lakeland,=20 Fl.

------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C0A574.50C43840-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:35:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:35:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics Message-ID: --part1_b7.bf9e972.27d56ecd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is Mort Moon apoligizing for my out burst. I normally do not discuss politics or someones faith. I will hold my fingers and prevent this in the future. Like we learned in my service days, no Excuse sir. --part1_b7.bf9e972.27d56ecd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is Mort Moon apoligizing for my out burst. I normally do not discuss
politics or someones faith. I will hold my fingers and prevent this in the
future. Like we learned in my service days, no Excuse sir. --part1_b7.bf9e972.27d56ecd_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:23:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:23:18 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <3AA37C98.25298.10A96D@localhost> Message-ID: <01a601c0a5c5$5d402880$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Gary - I agree with Bill's (and other's) feelings, but I agree totally with the rules of this chat net. Keeps it moe focused and professional, and will sure cut down on number of e-mails! Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton > > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > > speak one's mind on any subject. > > You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not > here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list > on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can > imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current > one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related > topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed > up stated the rules. You can read them again here: > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a > friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. > > I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a > friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership > here is a privilege, not a right. > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 22:35:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:35:50 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <005b01c0a5a0$3ac4cba0$3b194e0c@d2k> Message-ID: <01a901c0a5c5$61a33480$6d0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_018F_01C0A5C4.A1668F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If those photos are WWII vintage they would no longer be sensitive. But = they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that anyone having = a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so they would = be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a small stack of BDA = photos and I made a display of them showing how imagery intelligence was = done in the 8th. It is of interest to the people at Molesworth today and = still hangs in our main ops building (the Might in Flight Buidling). = Would gradly take any more that people want to contribute. We have = scores hanging up at Molesworth, many courtesy of Bill Carter (Ames, IA) = who let us make copies of many of his personal photos in 1992-3. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs This question is designed with Garys' advice in mind, I hope it = elicits some response because I have a real curiousity. =20 At one time my father had an entire box of photographs, some of = targets being bombed , some of aircraft in trouble, or going down, = pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is irrevokably lost, = tho a few photos survived). Did you have to have a "need to know" , or = some other form of permission to obtain these photos? It seems like = everyone I talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would be = permitted to send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were the = photos issued for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were = they souveniers of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they = may have been somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I = look forward to hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_018F_01C0A5C4.A1668F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If those photos are WWII vintage they would no = longer be=20 sensitive. But they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that = anyone=20 having a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so = they would=20 be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a small stack of BDA = photos=20 and I made a display of them showing how imagery intelligence was done = in the=20 8th. It is of interest to the people at Molesworth today and still hangs = in our=20 main ops building (the Might in Flight Buidling). Would gradly take any = more=20 that people want to contribute. We have scores hanging up at Molesworth, = many=20 courtesy of Bill Carter (Ames, IA) who let us make copies of many of his = personal photos in 1992-3.

Brian McGuire

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Lloyd=20 J Grant

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 6:15=20 PM

Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Photographs

This question is designed with Garys' = advice in=20 mind, I hope it elicits some response because I have a real=20 curiousity.

At one time my father had an entire = box of=20 photographs, some of targets being bombed , some of aircraft in = trouble, or=20 going down, pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is = irrevokably=20 lost, tho a few photos survived). Did you have to have a "need = to know"=20 , or some other form of permission to obtain these photos? It = seems like=20 everyone I talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would = be=20 permitted to send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were = the=20 photos issued for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were = they=20 souveniers of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they = may have=20 been somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I = look=20 forward to hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. =20 Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_018F_01C0A5C4.A1668F00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:02:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:02:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] E-Mail settings - and list rules response.... Message-ID: <3AA3B895.20994.FB073F@localhost> In order to help clean-up our digest version of 303rd-Talk, please set your email programs to send plain text, rather than html or fancy text. To do this in Outlook Express (probably AOL also), go to: TOOLS / OPTIONS / SEND and change the Mail Sending Format to plain text. Other email programs will have a similar setting. When html is sent, the digest version of 303rd-Talk is a mess to read. Each email is sent twice, in text and html. Also, thanks very much for the positive response to the list rules. I probably should post them occasionally. This is a great, informative forum that is being archived for posterity. Let's keep it up to a standard we can all be proud of. You are each personal friends of mine. Some I've met and some I haven't. Hopefully I'll meet you all in person sometime. Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:08:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:08:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Friends Message-ID: <001801c0a5c9$4093a000$a7904d0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0A59F.558470E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have made some of the best friends I have ever had the fine privelege = of knowing through my association with the 303rd BGA. I don't know for = certain how many of you all might include me in your personal list of = people you respect, and would trust with your e-mail address. After two = years, I had almost all of you saved to my e-mail addess book, and many = many many courteous and helpful answers to the myriad of questions I = have asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and the B-17 . Last week my = computer was shot down in flames while on what was supposed to be a milk = run to Windows 98. Fortunately, I didn't lose a single crewman, but all = your addresses and all your past responses went down with the "ship". I = am now faced with the rather daunting task of rebuilding my entire = archive. ( do I hear a collective moan in the briefing room? "Yes, men, = it's Schweinfurt again. And this time we'll get it right if we have to = go around 6 times ! " ). Actually, I'm just kidding about the lost = notes. They are lost. But you guys aren't. Those of you who don't = mind including their e-mail addresses can help me rebuild my HQ. And , = I promise, I will not pester anyone with questions we have already = discussed, and cussed. I love you guys, ( naturally in a purely = fraternal way, don't get the wrong idea, ok.) I am using my wifes computer, and that is pretty much like asking Rommel = is you can borrow a few hundred tanks for an offensive you are planning = against the Afrika Corps. Best and thanks to all. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0A59F.558470E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have made some of the best friends I = have ever=20 had the fine privelege of knowing through my association with the 303rd = BGA. I=20 don't know for certain how many of you all might include me in your = personal=20 list of people you respect, and would trust with your e-mail = address. =20 After two years, I had almost all of you saved to my e-mail addess book, = and=20 many many many courteous and helpful answers to the myriad of questions = I have=20 asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and the B-17 . Last week my = computer=20 was shot down in flames while on what was supposed to be a milk run = to=20 Windows 98. Fortunately, I didn't lose a single crewman, but all = your=20 addresses and all your past responses went down with the "ship". I = am now=20 faced with the rather daunting task of rebuilding my entire = archive. ( do=20 I hear a collective moan in the briefing room? "Yes, men, it's = Schweinfurt=20 again. And this time we'll get it right if we have to go around 6 = times !=20 " ). Actually, I'm just kidding about the lost notes. = They are=20 lost. But you guys aren't. Those of you who don't mind = including=20 their e-mail addresses can help me rebuild my HQ. And , I promise, = I will=20 not pester anyone with questions we have already discussed, and = cussed. I=20 love you guys, ( naturally in a purely fraternal way, don't get the = wrong idea,=20 ok.)

I am using my wifes computer, and that = is pretty=20 much like asking Rommel is you can borrow a few hundred tanks for an = offensive=20 you are planning against the Afrika Corps. Best and thanks to=20 all.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0A59F.558470E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:20:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:20:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <005b01c0a5a0$3ac4cba0$3b194e0c@d2k> <01a901c0a5c5$61a33480$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <002601c0a5ca$f064f960$a7904d0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0A5A1.053BD9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, I understant that the sensitivity issue is no longer germaine = today. It might have had some serious ramifictions if German = intelligence acquired information from them. I refer to the discussion = we had a week or so ago about what the Germans knew about POW airmen = during their interrogation. I will gladly scan anything and send it to you that I find in the photos = I have ( first I have to get my comuter fixed, then figure out how to = use the scanner properly) anything any legitimate museum needs that I = have I will gladly donate, but don't get too excited, most of it is = probably in some dump because someone felt it was just some old mans = junk. Sigh. Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs If those photos are WWII vintage they would no longer be sensitive. = But they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that anyone = having a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so = they would be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a small = stack of BDA photos and I made a display of them showing how imagery = intelligence was done in the 8th. It is of interest to the people at = Molesworth today and still hangs in our main ops building (the Might in = Flight Buidling). Would gradly take any more that people want to = contribute. We have scores hanging up at Molesworth, many courtesy of = Bill Carter (Ames, IA) who let us make copies of many of his personal = photos in 1992-3. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs This question is designed with Garys' advice in mind, I hope it = elicits some response because I have a real curiousity. At one time my father had an entire box of photographs, some of = targets being bombed , some of aircraft in trouble, or going down, = pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is irrevokably lost, = tho a few photos survived). Did you have to have a "need to know" , or = some other form of permission to obtain these photos? It seems like = everyone I talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would be = permitted to send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were the = photos issued for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were = they souveniers of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they = may have been somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I = look forward to hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0A5A1.053BD9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brian, I understant that the = sensitivity issue is=20 no longer germaine today. It might have had some serious = ramifictions if=20 German intelligence acquired information from them. I refer to the = discussion we had a week or so ago about what the Germans knew about POW = airmen=20 during their interrogation.

I will gladly scan anything and send it = to you that=20 I find in the photos I have ( first I have to get my comuter fixed, then = figure=20 out how to use the scanner properly) anything any legitimate = museum needs=20 that I have I will gladly donate, but don't get too excited, most of it = is=20 probably in some dump because someone felt it was just some old mans = junk.=20 Sigh.

Lloyd.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian McGuire
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com =

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 5:35=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Photographs

If those photos are WWII vintage they would no = longer be=20 sensitive. But they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope = that=20 anyone having a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah = museum so=20 they would be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a small = stack of=20 BDA photos and I made a display of them showing how imagery = intelligence was=20 done in the 8th. It is of interest to the people at Molesworth today = and still=20 hangs in our main ops building (the Might in Flight Buidling). Would = gradly=20 take any more that people want to contribute. We have scores hanging = up at=20 Molesworth, many courtesy of Bill Carter (Ames, IA) who let us make = copies of=20 many of his personal photos in 1992-3.

Brian McGuire

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd J Grant
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com =

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 6:15=20 PM

Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Photographs

This question is designed with = Garys' advice in=20 mind, I hope it elicits some response because I have a real=20 curiousity.

At one time my father had an entire = box of=20 photographs, some of targets being bombed , some of aircraft in = trouble, or=20 going down, pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is=20 irrevokably lost, tho a few photos survived). Did you have to = have a=20 "need to know" , or some other form of permission to obtain these=20 photos? It seems like everyone I talk to has a cache of = them. I=20 doubt that you would be permitted to send them home, or otherwise = show them=20 about. Were the photos issued for a specific reason to crews = Ie.=20 debriefings, or were they souveniers of reminiscence. Some of = the=20 photos look as tho they may have been somewhat "sensitive" from an=20 intelligence stand point. I look forward to hearing what you = fellows=20 have to say. Thanks. =20 Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0A5A1.053BD9A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:19:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:19:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton Message-ID: <41.843e386.27d5790c@aol.com> brian all should hold and count to ten before expressing an opinion of controversy. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:20:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:20:22 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: --part1_a6.10da3ba0.27d57936_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Bob: Don't thing I am, My family(father side) came from Carrigaholt, Ireland. Take care, Bill --part1_a6.10da3ba0.27d57936_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Bob:
Don't thing I am, My family(father side) came from Carrigaholt, Ireland.
Take care, Bill --part1_a6.10da3ba0.27d57936_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:56:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:56:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A NOBLE SPIRIT - Alvin L. Morton Message-ID: <001701c0a5cf$f59b8fc0$2bbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0A59D.AA71B100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have checked with Walden Book store in Grand Island NE. The name and = author came up on the computer but the store can not get it & no other = information listed. Amazon lists it at $43.75. Dorrance Publishing = Company's web site does not list it. Any idea where I can obtain a copy? = Date of publication???---- still in print??? THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0A59D.AA71B100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have checked with Walden Book store = in Grand=20 Island NE. The name and author came up on the computer but the = store can=20 not get it & no other information listed. Amazon lists = it at=20 $43.75. Dorrance Publishing Company's web site = does not=20 list it. Any idea where I can obtain = a copy? Date=20 of publication???---- still in print???

THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0A59D.AA71B100-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:37:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:37:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs In-Reply-To: <01a901c0a5c5$61a33480$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AA3DCED.27224.26176AF@localhost> > If those photos are WWII vintage they would no longer be sensitive. But > they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that anyone having a > stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so they would be > preserved. Re the photos, it was my understanding that the photos were discarded, ie put out on a table where anyone interested could pick them up. At least that is what my father told me many years ago. Most of the BDA photos that I have have a stamp on the back of them, saying something like "for personal use only", or something like that, so they were certainly cleared by censors before being discarded. What I don't know is whether they were discarded after VE day, or if this was an ongoing thing. Re preserving such valuable historical items, it was kind of interesting to visit the National Archives in Md. That place is really walking the fine line, trying to both preserve historical items but also trying to give people access to them, (which people often wouldn't have at a museum). I was overwhelmed to be able to hold in my hands the actual teletypes by which the missions were ordered, and other similar documents. However I was also really disturbed that the documents, old brittle yellowing paper, were literally falling apart in my hands, and apparently nothing can be done to preserve them (I'm sure it would be prohibitively expensive to even make copies of them, and the items are too irregular in shape to have some way of putting them in plastic or anything, so there really isn't much that can be done). NARA has the most stringent rules to prevent damage to the documents, such as not permitting use of scanners that touch them, etc, so it's not that the documents are being abused.... it's just that they are getting old, and are decaying naturally. After viewing a document, there would be a little pile of paper crumbs on the table, some with text on them. Anyway, I'm just glad that I got the chance to see some of these documents. Too bad that it doesn't look like they will be there indefinately. But it does bring up the question of whether it is better for individuals to be responsible for preserving such things, or whether we should expect the government or some museum to do it. It also brings up the question of whether individuals should have access to such items, when viewing the items might damage them. Personally, I think what is being done at NARA is the best compromise, mainly because it doesn't do any good to preserve historical items if interested people can never have access to them, but that approach means the documents will have a finite life, so we better view them while we can. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 5 23:52:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:52:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> <00a101c0a5bf$7bf404a0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001301c0a5cf$46dee540$48f833cf@richards> Nobody ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > Spider - > Who won?? > > Brian MCGUIRE (McGuire!!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dick Smith > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT LAKE > CITY > > TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED HOURS IN > > 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY AND > > PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS CORNER > > IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN IRISHMAN > > INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. > > KEEP EM FLYING > > SPIDER SMITH > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; > > ; ; ; > > ; > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > Hi You All, > > > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my > last > > > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and Copilots, > > > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you > met > > > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without > an > > > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is satisfactory. > > Any > > > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be > > > appreciated. Thank You. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 00:39:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:39:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton Message-ID: <58.810adc1.27d58bb9@aol.com> Thank you for this gentle reminder. This is a list for the 303rd and related subjects. Speaking of which, would anyone on the list have any info on the crash of "Idaho Potato Peeler", 1-24565, which crashed on return from its mission at the RAF base at Chipping Warden? Date of crash was October 30, 1943. Pilot's last name was 'Bales'. Thanks, Bill William L. Beigel Torrance, CA (310) 791-3949 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 04:06:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:06:16 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <3AA37C98.25298.10A96D@localhost> <01a601c0a5c5$5d402880$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AA46237.BE5A9F64@attglobal.net> Thanks, Brian! Cheers! BILL HELLER Brian McGuire wrote: > Gary - > I agree with Bill's (and other's) feelings, but I agree totally with the > rules of this chat net. Keeps it moe focused and professional, and will sure > cut down on number of e-mails! > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Moncur > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton > > > > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > > > speak one's mind on any subject. > > > > You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not > > here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list > > on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can > > imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current > > one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related > > topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed > > up stated the rules. You can read them again here: > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a > > friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. > > > > I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a > > friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership > > here is a privilege, not a right. > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 04:10:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:10:12 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Friends References: <001801c0a5c9$4093a000$a7904d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA46323.12E124A4@attglobal.net> --------------F9B33276C38A8D74F2DBCDFE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant ... My Email handle is CHeers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I have made some of the best friends I have ever had the fine > privelege of knowing through my association with the 303rd BGA. I > don't know for certain how many of you all might include me in your > personal list of people you respect, and would trust with your e-mail > address. After two years, I had almost all of you saved to my e-mail > addess book, and many many many courteous and helpful answers to the > myriad of questions I have asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and > the B-17 . Last week my computer was shot down in flames while on > what was supposed to be a milk run to Windows 98. Fortunately, I > didn't lose a single crewman, but all your addresses and all your past > responses went down with the "ship". I am now faced with the rather > daunting task of rebuilding my entire archive. ( do I hear a > collective moan in the briefing room? "Yes, men, it's Schweinfurt > again. And this time we'll get it right if we have to go around 6 > times ! " ). Actually, I'm just kidding about the lost notes. They > are lost. But you guys aren't. Those of you who don't mind including > their e-mail addresses can help me rebuild my HQ. And , I promise, I > will not pester anyone with questions we have already discussed, and > cussed. I love you guys, ( naturally in a purely fraternal way, don't > get the wrong idea, ok.)I am using my wifes computer, and that is > pretty much like asking Rommel is you can borrow a few hundred tanks > for an offensive you are planning against the Afrika Corps. Best and > thanks to all. --------------F9B33276C38A8D74F2DBCDFE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Grant ...

My Email handle is <wheller@attglobal.net>

CHeers!

WCH

Lloyd J Grant wrote:

I have made some of the best friends I have ever had the fine privelege of knowing through my association with the 303rd BGA. I don't know for certain how many of you all might include me in your personal list of people you respect, and would trust with your e-mail address. After two years, I had almost all of you saved to my e-mail addess book, and many many many courteous and helpful answers to the myriad of questions I have asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and the B-17 . Last week my computer was shot down in flames while on what was supposed to be a milk run to Windows 98. Fortunately, I didn't lose a single crewman, but all your addresses and all your past responses went down with the "ship". I am now faced with the rather daunting task of rebuilding my entire archive. ( do I hear a collective moan in the briefing room? "Yes, men, it's Schweinfurt again. And this time we'll get it right if we have to go around 6 times ! " ). Actually, I'm just kidding about the lost notes. They are lost. But you guys aren't. Those of you who don't mind including their e-mail addresses can help me rebuild my HQ. And , I promise, I will not pester anyone with questions we have already discussed, and cussed. I love you guys, ( naturally in a purely fraternal way, don't get the wrong idea, ok.)I am using my wifes computer, and that is pretty much like asking Rommel is you can borrow a few hundred tanks for an offensive you are planning against the Afrika Corps. Best and thanks to all.

--------------F9B33276C38A8D74F2DBCDFE-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 04:11:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:11:44 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> <00a101c0a5bf$7bf404a0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <001301c0a5cf$46dee540$48f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AA46380.9D72AB5D@attglobal.net> Spider, you are respectfully wrong. Somebody DID win! Cheers! Dick Smith wrote: > Nobody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian McGuire" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:53 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > Spider - > > Who won?? > > > > Brian MCGUIRE (McGuire!!) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dick Smith > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT LAKE > > CITY > > > TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED HOURS IN > > > 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY AND > > > PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS CORNER > > > IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN > IRISHMAN > > > INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. > > > KEEP EM FLYING > > > SPIDER SMITH > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > > > > Hi You All, > > > > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my > > last > > > > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and > Copilots, > > > > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you > > met > > > > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without > > an > > > > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is > satisfactory. > > > Any > > > > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be > > > > appreciated. Thank You. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 04:25:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:25:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA3DCED.27224.26176AF@localhost> Message-ID: <000b01c0a5f5$890bdb00$318f4d0c@d2k> Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of yellowed crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some irrevokable time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in a vacuum locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be photocopied thru the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. Zip the lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air as possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by mechanical vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > If those photos are WWII vintage they would no longer be sensitive. But > > they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that anyone having a > > stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so they would be > > preserved. > > Re the photos, it was my understanding that the photos were discarded, ie put out on > a table where anyone interested could pick them up. At least that is what my father > told me many years ago. Most of the BDA photos that I have have a stamp on the > back of them, saying something like "for personal use only", or something like that, so > they were certainly cleared by censors before being discarded. What I don't know is > whether they were discarded after VE day, or if this was an ongoing thing. > > Re preserving such valuable historical items, it was kind of interesting to visit the > National Archives in Md. That place is really walking the fine line, trying to both > preserve historical items but also trying to give people access to them, (which people > often wouldn't have at a museum). I was overwhelmed to be able to hold in my hands > the actual teletypes by which the missions were ordered, and other similar > documents. However I was also really disturbed that the documents, old brittle > yellowing paper, were literally falling apart in my hands, and apparently nothing can be > done to preserve them (I'm sure it would be prohibitively expensive to even make > copies of them, and the items are too irregular in shape to have some way of putting > them in plastic or anything, so there really isn't much that can be done). > NARA has the most stringent rules to prevent damage to the documents, such as > not permitting use of scanners that touch them, etc, so it's not that the documents are > being abused.... it's just that they are getting old, and are decaying naturally. After > viewing a document, there would be a little pile of paper crumbs on the table, some > with text on them. > Anyway, I'm just glad that I got the chance to see some of these documents. Too > bad that it doesn't look like they will be there indefinately. But it does bring up the > question of whether it is better for individuals to be responsible for preserving such > things, or whether we should expect the government or some museum to do it. It also > brings up the question of whether individuals should have access to such items, when > viewing the items might damage them. Personally, I think what is being done at > NARA is the best compromise, mainly because it doesn't do any good to preserve > historical items if interested people can never have access to them, but that approach > means the documents will have a finite life, so we better view them while we can. > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 04:58:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:58:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] E-mail settings Message-ID: <003601c0a5fa$1780d4e0$318f4d0c@d2k> Using Garys' simple instructions, I found out that I was in the html mode. I would never have known. I changed the settings , Gary. Sorry. (ignorance is bliss, until someone wises you up). Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 07:14:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:14:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <58.810adc1.27d58bb9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001c01c0a60d$27a6c380$4009f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi William, Seems that "Idaho Potato Peeler" also went by the name of ""The Ramblin' Wreck". It was assigned to the 359BS of the 303BG at Bangor, Maine, on the 9th of Oct., '42, and arrived at Molesworth on the 25th of that same month. When it crashed on a mission to Gelsenkirchen on the 5th of Nov., '43, it was probably sporting "The Ramblin' Wreck" on it's nose. A flak hit knocked it out of the air, and it went down near Rosenthal, Germ. There was 1 KIA, and 9 POWs. The MACR is 1157. This 303rd BG plane was one of 8 that went down this day, of the totals from the 1st and 3rd Bomb Divisions. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com 'Tailgunnerson' _________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton > Thank you for this gentle reminder. This is a list for the 303rd and related > subjects. Speaking of which, would anyone on the list have any info on the > crash of "Idaho Potato Peeler", 1-24565, which crashed on return from its > mission at the RAF base at Chipping Warden? Date of crash was October 30, > 1943. Pilot's last name was 'Bales'. Thanks, Bill > > William L. Beigel > Torrance, CA (310) 791-3949 > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 13:11:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 05:11:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CD Rom Message-ID: <20010306131127.51388.qmail@web9305.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Gary On that note I encourage everyone who ordered a copy of the 303rd CD Rom to proof read it for their personal records. And forward the corrections through the proper channels. This CD is a perfect companion to the Might in Flight book when you need the WHOLE story for a specific mission! Some other observations about Dads 1944 mission record, the aircraft they flew in combat were War weary! As with all new crews they arrived in England delivering a shinny new B-17G from the states, then they ended up with the all the following B-17's for one to three or more raids ... 42-97311 "Shoo Shoo Baby, 42-39885 Sweet Rosie O'Grady, 42-97096 (No Name), 42-31072 Betty Jane, 42-10680 (No-Name), 42-38051 My yorkshire Dream, 42-37875 Flying Bison, 42-97085 (No Name)one flight Aborted, 42-31055 Aloha, Then they entered the 305th PFF Pool and most likly ended up with B-17G "Mickey" fortress's for the last 7 or 8 raids, PFF ships sadly, are only listed by there last three tail numbers on the CD. I wonder what crew holds the record for most 303rd A/C flown in combat during their tour :) ??? Todd In NJ... with my head looking out at B-17 formations over Nazi Europe 60 years ago! > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:35:33 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CD Rom > Cc: edmiller@pldi.net, lgarris@sirinet.net > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > First disapointment, the realization that USAAF > > record keeping was a horror! NOW I know why Dad's > > mission record was so hard to track down... they > have > > his last name as HOOLRITE instead of HOLLRITT for > > Todd, > I forwared your full message on the Ed and Linda, > the CD team. I > can vouch for the bad spelling and record keeping as > I proofread > several of the missions. Linda was working off > records that were > carboned and copied. > > I don't know how often they changed the carbon > paper, but not often > enough. One squadron (seems like the 427th) mostly > used initials > rather than first names for the crewmen, which > caused a real > problem. I think the 18-20 year old clerk typists > had no idea of the > historic records they were preserving. From what I > understand, the > 303rd records (bad as they may be) are by far the > best of any > bomb group. > > Just yesterday I added a crew photo to the web where > the pilot's > name was spelled wrong on his crew photo. I've seen > that about 20 > times on the crew photos I put on the web page. > > Ed and Linda are keeping track of all the errors > noted and should > have them corrected if there is a second edition. > > Regards, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 12:06:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 07:06:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs In-Reply-To: <000b01c0a5f5$890bdb00$318f4d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of yellowed > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some irrevokable > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in a vacuum > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be photocopied thru > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. Zip the > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air as > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by mechanical > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I found in my father's things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a 3-ring binder. Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that the teletype sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to un-fold them, and they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could do about that. I was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get free copying if you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the contents of a box when you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the material. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 15:35:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:35:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> Message-ID: <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or College that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that these documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical objects like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be preserved over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to molder and disintegrate. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of yellowed > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some irrevokable > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in a vacuum > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be photocopied thru > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. Zip the > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air as > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by mechanical > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I found in my father's > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a 3-ring binder. > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that the teletype > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to un-fold them, and > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could do about that. I > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get free copying if > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the contents of a box when > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the material. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 17:25:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:25:41 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA51D95.F9BCA287@newsfactory.net> Lloyd, just know of the University of Keele at Keele, Kent, GB, who has got a very huge Air Photo Library concerning pics of Brit. & US targets between 1942 and 1945. Got me some copies of US photos of my hometown Augsburg there, dated Febr. & March 44 and some of 45. Sorry, don´t know of any similar US institutions. Kind regards, Uwe from Germany Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or College > that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that these > documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical objects > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be preserved > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to molder > and disintegrate. LG. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jones" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of > yellowed > > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some > irrevokable > > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in a > vacuum > > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be photocopied > thru > > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. Zip > the > > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air as > > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by mechanical > > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I > found in my father's > > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a > 3-ring binder. > > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that the > teletype > > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to > un-fold them, and > > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could do > about that. I > > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get free > copying if > > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the contents of > a box when > > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the > material. > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 16:22:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:22:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Friends References: <001801c0a5c9$4093a000$a7904d0c@d2k> <3AA46323.12E124A4@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002901c0a659$9c8a8dc0$07904d0c@d2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0A62F.B31D75E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wild Bill Heller, We met a year or so ago when you responded to my = questions on the GC section of the 303rd site. Thanks for the address. = Here is mine, palidin@worldnet.att.net . Hmm, I don't think that was = supposed to come thru in hypertext. Better go check my settings again. = Cheers, mate! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Heller=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Friends Lloyd Grant ...=20 My Email handle is =20 CHeers!=20 WCH=20 Lloyd J Grant wrote:=20 I have made some of the best friends I have ever had the fine = privelege of knowing through my association with the 303rd BGA. I don't = know for certain how many of you all might include me in your personal = list of people you respect, and would trust with your e-mail address. = After two years, I had almost all of you saved to my e-mail addess book, = and many many many courteous and helpful answers to the myriad of = questions I have asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and the B-17 . = Last week my computer was shot down in flames while on what was supposed = to be a milk run to Windows 98. Fortunately, I didn't lose a single = crewman, but all your addresses and all your past responses went down = with the "ship". I am now faced with the rather daunting task of = rebuilding my entire archive. ( do I hear a collective moan in the = briefing room? "Yes, men, it's Schweinfurt again. And this time we'll = get it right if we have to go around 6 times ! " ). Actually, I'm just = kidding about the lost notes. They are lost. But you guys aren't. = Those of you who don't mind including their e-mail addresses can help me = rebuild my HQ. And , I promise, I will not pester anyone with questions = we have already discussed, and cussed. I love you guys, ( naturally in = a purely fraternal way, don't get the wrong idea, ok.)I am using my = wifes computer, and that is pretty much like asking Rommel is you can = borrow a few hundred tanks for an offensive you are planning against the = Afrika Corps. Best and thanks to all. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0A62F.B31D75E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wild Bill Heller, We met a year = or so ago=20 when you responded to my questions on the GC section of the 303rd = site. =20 Thanks for the address. Here is mine, palidin@worldnet.att.net = . Hmm,=20 I don't think that was supposed to come thru in hypertext. Better = go check=20 my settings again. Cheers, mate!

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Heller
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com =

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 11:10=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = Friends

Lloyd Grant ...=20
My Email handle is <wheller@attglobal.net>=20
CHeers!=20
WCH=20
Lloyd J Grant wrote:=20
I have made some of the best = friends I have=20 ever had the fine privelege of knowing through my association with = the 303rd=20 BGA. I don't know for certain how many of you all might include me = in your=20 personal list of people you respect, and would trust with your = e-mail=20 address. After two years, I had almost all of you saved to my = e-mail=20 addess book, and many many many courteous and helpful answers to the = myriad=20 of questions I have asked about the 303rd, the men, WWII, and the = B-17=20 . Last week my computer was shot down in flames while on what = was=20 supposed to be a milk run to Windows 98. Fortunately, I didn't = lose a=20 single crewman, but all your addresses and all your past responses = went down=20 with the "ship". I am now faced with the rather daunting task = of =20 rebuilding my entire archive. ( do I hear a collective moan in the = briefing=20 room? "Yes, men, it's Schweinfurt again. And this time = we'll get=20 it right if we have to go around 6 times ! " ). Actually, I'm = just=20 kidding about the lost notes. They are lost. But = you guys=20 aren't. Those of you who don't mind including their e-mail = addresses=20 can help me rebuild my HQ. And , I promise, I will not pester = anyone=20 with questions we have already discussed, and cussed. I love = you guys,=20 ( naturally in a purely fraternal way, don't get the wrong idea,=20 ok.)I am using my = wifes=20 computer, and that is pretty much like asking Rommel is you can = borrow a few=20 hundred tanks for an offensive you are planning against the Afrika=20 Corps. Best and thanks to=20 all.

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0A62F.B31D75E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 18:20:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:20:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs In-Reply-To: <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA4E435.22556.17D2A98@localhost> > It is ironic that historical objects > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be preserved > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to molder > and disintegrate. LG. I didn't mean to infer that they were getting moldy or that they were not being kept in a good environment. I'm sure that they are kept in environmentally controlled conditions. It's just that some of the materials are on a type paper that just seems to naturally get brittle with age, regardless of how they are kept. I'm convinced that they are doing the best job that is possible. They could probably extend their life a bit by keeping them locked up, but then no-one could see them. It's kind of like the national parks. Ie to preserve them you have to keep the people out, but then no-one could get any benefit out of them. BTW, an example of what I was referring to is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaanara08.jpg Ie the documents are still in fairly good shape, but if you scroll down about half way, where it says intervalometer (I assume this is a bombardier setting?) , you can see how the documents are crumbling where they were folded. Ie perhaps not as bad as I had made it seem, but it was just a shame to see little sections of the documents fall onto the table. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 18:40:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:40:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: CD Rom References: <20010306131127.51388.qmail@web9305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AA52F02.D324F362@attglobal.net> Todd! Do not know which CREW, but Lew Lyle flew the most as an individual pilot. Such records can be checked. Cheers! BILL HELLER Todd Hollritt wrote: > Thanks Gary > On that note I encourage everyone who ordered a > copy of the 303rd CD Rom to proof read it for their > personal records. And forward the corrections through > the proper channels. This CD is a perfect companion to > the Might in Flight book when you need the WHOLE story > for a specific mission! > Some other observations about Dads 1944 mission > record, the aircraft they flew in combat were War > weary! As with all new crews they arrived in England > delivering a shinny new B-17G from the states, then > they ended up with the all the following B-17's for > one to three or more raids ... 42-97311 "Shoo Shoo > Baby, 42-39885 Sweet Rosie O'Grady, 42-97096 (No > Name), 42-31072 Betty Jane, 42-10680 (No-Name), > 42-38051 My yorkshire Dream, 42-37875 Flying Bison, > 42-97085 (No Name)one flight Aborted, 42-31055 Aloha, > Then they entered the 305th PFF Pool and most likly > ended up with B-17G "Mickey" fortress's for the last 7 > or 8 raids, PFF ships sadly, are only listed by there > last three tail numbers on the CD. I wonder what crew > holds the record for most 303rd A/C flown in combat > during their tour :) ??? > > Todd > > In NJ... with my head looking out at B-17 formations > over Nazi Europe 60 years ago! > > > From: "Gary Moncur" > > Organization: 303rd BGA > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:35:33 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CD Rom > > Cc: edmiller@pldi.net, lgarris@sirinet.net > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > First disapointment, the realization that USAAF > > > record keeping was a horror! NOW I know why Dad's > > > mission record was so hard to track down... they > > have > > > his last name as HOOLRITE instead of HOLLRITT for > > > > Todd, > > I forwared your full message on the Ed and Linda, > > the CD team. I > > can vouch for the bad spelling and record keeping as > > I proofread > > several of the missions. Linda was working off > > records that were > > carboned and copied. > > > > I don't know how often they changed the carbon > > paper, but not often > > enough. One squadron (seems like the 427th) mostly > > used initials > > rather than first names for the crewmen, which > > caused a real > > problem. I think the 18-20 year old clerk typists > > had no idea of the > > historic records they were preserving. From what I > > understand, the > > 303rd records (bad as they may be) are by far the > > best of any > > bomb group. > > > > Just yesterday I added a crew photo to the web where > > the pilot's > > name was spelled wrong on his crew photo. I've seen > > that about 20 > > times on the crew photos I put on the web page. > > > > Ed and Linda are keeping track of all the errors > > noted and should > > have them corrected if there is a second edition. > > > > Regards, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 19:17:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:17:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton Message-ID: Gary: Since I'm the one who was so vocal about my feeling for Clinton, and since your message followed that one, I must apologize. You are right, this is a friendly forum for the discussion of much better things. Won't happen again! Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:46:32 -0700 > > > Gee, I thought one of the many things we fought for was the right to > > speak one's mind on any subject. > >You can speak your mind on anything you want elsewhere, but not >here. This list has rules of its own as does almost every mailing list >on the internet. There are other mailing lists for any topic you can >imagine. If you want to bad mouth the past President or the current >one, there are lists for that, too. This list is for 303rd, WWII related >topics ONLY. The page introducing the list when all of you signed >up stated the rules. You can read them again here: >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk >Bad-mouthing ANYONE, will not be tolerated here. This is a >friendly group and will remain that way or it will be gone. > >I'm not picking on anyone or singling anyone out. Consider this a >friendly reminder to all about the 303rd-Talk list rules. Membership >here is a privilege, not a right. > > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 19:25:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:25:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website Message-ID: Hi Spider: I saw Tom Brokaw the first night they announced the finding of this downed American airman, William Patton, and I was very disappointed they did not list more of his history, like Group, date of crash. The next night they gave more of the details as they unfolded. I am very thankful we have not forgotten those who fell 50+ years ago. The second night you could see the respect and admiration in Brokaw's eyes. So any more news on William Patton? Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: pyker >To: Lloyd J Grant >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM >Subject: RE: Your website > > >Grant, > >Many thanks for the message. > >Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all the >enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in France. >Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is quite >gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials etc. > >Please give my fondest regards to Spider. > >Peter > >*************************************** >Peter Randall > >mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk > >Little Friends home page: >http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk > >Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: >http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall > >*************************************** > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 > To: pyker@dircon.co.uk > Subject: Your website > > > Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk forum. >Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, but I am very >impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have bookmarked the site >and will return when I can devote my full attention. > My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. > Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put into >this page. > Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 20:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:09:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> <3AA51D95.F9BCA287@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0a679$54f26800$368f4d0c@d2k> Hello Uwe, My original question was in regard to how individuals obtained photos of planes in formation, targets, and so forth. It occurred to me that these photos could have some intelligence value if they fell into the hands of German military intelligence ( the Abweir???). My father had quite a few of these photos showing planes in formation, crippled , or going down. I was wondering if they were given out for a specific reason, or perhaps just made available, or "souvenired" (unofficially obtained). I have not heard anyone specifically address this question, or have missed the reply. I may not have put the question very well. I will wait awhile before I ask it again. It is good to hear from you, Uwe. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > Lloyd, > > just know of the University of Keele at Keele, Kent, GB, who has got a very huge > Air Photo Library concerning pics of Brit. & US targets between 1942 and 1945. > Got me some copies of US photos of my hometown Augsburg there, dated Febr. & > March 44 and some of 45. > Sorry, don´t know of any similar US institutions. > > Kind regards, Uwe from Germany > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or College > > that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that these > > documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical objects > > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be preserved > > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to molder > > and disintegrate. LG. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Jones" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of > > yellowed > > > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some > > irrevokable > > > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in a > > vacuum > > > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be photocopied > > thru > > > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. Zip > > the > > > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air as > > > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by mechanical > > > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > > > > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I > > found in my father's > > > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a > > 3-ring binder. > > > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > > > > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that the > > teletype > > > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to > > un-fold them, and > > > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could do > > about that. I > > > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get free > > copying if > > > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the contents of > > a box when > > > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the > > material. > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 21:35:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:35:26 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website References: Message-ID: <000d01c0a685$5d151da0$48f833cf@richards> Kevin : I heard last night that Patton was a member of the third Scouting Force , that's the same outfit I was flying P51's in only the Third Division. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > Hi Spider: I saw Tom Brokaw the first night they announced the finding of > this downed American airman, William Patton, and I was very disappointed > they did not list more of his history, like Group, date of crash. The next > night they gave more of the details as they unfolded. I am very thankful we > have not forgotten those who fell 50+ years ago. The second night you could > see the respect and admiration in Brokaw's eyes. > > So any more news on William Patton? > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: pyker > >To: Lloyd J Grant > >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM > >Subject: RE: Your website > > > > > >Grant, > > > >Many thanks for the message. > > > >Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all the > >enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in France. > >Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is quite > >gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials etc. > > > >Please give my fondest regards to Spider. > > > >Peter > > > >*************************************** > >Peter Randall > > > >mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > >Little Friends home page: > >http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk > > > >Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: > >http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall > > > >*************************************** > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > > Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 > > To: pyker@dircon.co.uk > > Subject: Your website > > > > > > Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk forum. > >Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, but I am very > >impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have bookmarked the site > >and will return when I can devote my full attention. > > My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. > > Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put into > >this page. > > Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 21:33:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:33:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> <3AA51D95.F9BCA287@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a679$54f26800$368f4d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA5578B.C503D31D@newsfactory.net> Aha, Lloyd, now I got it.... Sorry, guess I´m not able to give any hint on this topic, but I´m sure the German "Abwehr" ( under its chief Adm. Canaris) certainly had been interested in any of these pics if found by bailed - out crewmembers or by agents who "worked" in England close to the airfields... Anyway, hope you´ll get an answer on this. Watched this discussion about "politics" etc.... It´s not on me to get into that - I preferred to keep out of this-, but just let me point out shortly that I agree with Gary believing that this board and its members should be proud of their heritage and in providing first hand history information........talking about some specific political affairs and their "producers" isn´t worth a dime nor getting into trouble with each other .......nevertheless, from time to time some views have to be pointed out. Best to you all, Uwe Wiedemann Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Hello Uwe, My original question was in regard to how individuals obtained > photos of planes in formation, targets, and so forth. It occurred to me > that these photos could have some intelligence value if they fell into the > hands of German military intelligence ( the Abweir???). My father had quite > a few of these photos showing planes in formation, crippled , or going down. > I was wondering if they were given out for a specific reason, or perhaps > just made available, or "souvenired" (unofficially obtained). I have not > heard anyone specifically address this question, or have missed the reply. > I may not have put the question very well. I will wait awhile before I ask > it again. It is good to hear from you, Uwe. LG. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > Lloyd, > > > > just know of the University of Keele at Keele, Kent, GB, who has got a > very huge > > Air Photo Library concerning pics of Brit. & US targets between 1942 and > 1945. > > Got me some copies of US photos of my hometown Augsburg there, dated Febr. > & > > March 44 and some of 45. > > Sorry, don´t know of any similar US institutions. > > > > Kind regards, Uwe from Germany > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or > College > > > that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that > these > > > documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical > objects > > > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be > preserved > > > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to > molder > > > and disintegrate. LG. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bill Jones" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > > > > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of > > > yellowed > > > > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some > > > irrevokable > > > > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in > a > > > vacuum > > > > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be > photocopied > > > thru > > > > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. > Zip > > > the > > > > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air > as > > > > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by > mechanical > > > > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > > > > > > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I > > > found in my father's > > > > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a > > > 3-ring binder. > > > > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > > > > > > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that > the > > > teletype > > > > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to > > > un-fold them, and > > > > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could > do > > > about that. I > > > > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get > free > > > copying if > > > > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the > contents of > > > a box when > > > > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the > > > material. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:38:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:38:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Message-ID: seems our pow all our info ,so photos would not be too great a thing. 's found that the nazi's knew From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:43:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:43:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> <3AA51D95.F9BCA287@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a679$54f26800$368f4d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <3AA567FA.7337F877@newsfactory.net> Aha, Lloyd, now I got it.... Sorry, guess I´m not able to give any hint on this topic, but I´m sure the German "Abwehr" ( under its chief Adm. Canaris) certainly had been interested in any of these pics if found by bailed - out crewmembers or by agents who "worked" in England close to the airfields... Anyway, hope you´ll get an answer on this. Watched this discussion about "politics" etc.... It´s not on me to get into that - I preferred to keep out of this-, but just let me point out shortly that I agree with Gary believing that this board and its members should be proud of their heritage and in providing first hand history information........talking about some specific political affairs and their "producers" isn´t worth a dime nor getting into trouble with each other .......nevertheless, from time to time some views have to be pointed out. Best to you all, Uwe Wiedemann Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Hello Uwe, My original question was in regard to how individuals obtained > photos of planes in formation, targets, and so forth. It occurred to me > that these photos could have some intelligence value if they fell into the > hands of German military intelligence ( the Abweir???). My father had quite > a few of these photos showing planes in formation, crippled , or going down. > I was wondering if they were given out for a specific reason, or perhaps > just made available, or "souvenired" (unofficially obtained). I have not > heard anyone specifically address this question, or have missed the reply. > I may not have put the question very well. I will wait awhile before I ask > it again. It is good to hear from you, Uwe. LG. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > Lloyd, > > > > just know of the University of Keele at Keele, Kent, GB, who has got a > very huge > > Air Photo Library concerning pics of Brit. & US targets between 1942 and > 1945. > > Got me some copies of US photos of my hometown Augsburg there, dated Febr. > & > > March 44 and some of 45. > > Sorry, don´t know of any similar US institutions. > > > > Kind regards, Uwe from Germany > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or > College > > > that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that > these > > > documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical > objects > > > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be > preserved > > > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to > molder > > > and disintegrate. LG. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bill Jones" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > > > > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of > > > yellowed > > > > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some > > > irrevokable > > > > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in > a > > > vacuum > > > > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be > photocopied > > > thru > > > > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. > Zip > > > the > > > > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air > as > > > > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by > mechanical > > > > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > > > > > > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I > > > found in my father's > > > > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a > > > 3-ring binder. > > > > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > > > > > > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that > the > > > teletype > > > > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to > > > un-fold them, and > > > > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could > do > > > about that. I > > > > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get > free > > > copying if > > > > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the > contents of > > > a box when > > > > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the > > > material. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:27:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:27:50 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <005b01c0a5a0$3ac4cba0$3b194e0c@d2k> <01a901c0a5c5$61a33480$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <002601c0a5ca$f064f960$a7904d0c@d2k> Message-ID: <017501c0a690$60a98e00$6c0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C0A68C.ADF94280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable there is far more material in personal collections than there is in = museums. The museum opening in Savannah in 1996 was a godsend, because = it gave veterans and families a place to send their stuff rather than = have to tossed out, and therefore it will be available to historians a = hundred years from now. I have worked about six year to build up = material here, and invested about $50,000, nearly all of that covered by = sales of lithographs of paintings I have commissioned. Frankly, there = isn't much room left here to display stuff. If Molesworth ever closes, I = am making provisions that all of it becomes property of the museum in = Savannah. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Brian, I understant that the sensitivity issue is no longer germaine = today. It might have had some serious ramifictions if German = intelligence acquired information from them. I refer to the discussion = we had a week or so ago about what the Germans knew about POW airmen = during their interrogation. I will gladly scan anything and send it to you that I find in the = photos I have ( first I have to get my comuter fixed, then figure out = how to use the scanner properly) anything any legitimate museum needs = that I have I will gladly donate, but don't get too excited, most of it = is probably in some dump because someone felt it was just some old mans = junk. Sigh. Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs If those photos are WWII vintage they would no longer be sensitive. = But they are extremely valuable to historians and I hope that anyone = having a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah museum so = they would be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a small = stack of BDA photos and I made a display of them showing how imagery = intelligence was done in the 8th. It is of interest to the people at = Molesworth today and still hangs in our main ops building (the Might in = Flight Buidling). Would gradly take any more that people want to = contribute. We have scores hanging up at Molesworth, many courtesy of = Bill Carter (Ames, IA) who let us make copies of many of his personal = photos in 1992-3. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs This question is designed with Garys' advice in mind, I hope it = elicits some response because I have a real curiousity. =20 At one time my father had an entire box of photographs, some of = targets being bombed , some of aircraft in trouble, or going down, = pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box is irrevokably lost, = tho a few photos survived). Did you have to have a "need to know" , or = some other form of permission to obtain these photos? It seems like = everyone I talk to has a cache of them. I doubt that you would be = permitted to send them home, or otherwise show them about. Were the = photos issued for a specific reason to crews Ie. debriefings, or were = they souveniers of reminiscence. Some of the photos look as tho they = may have been somewhat "sensitive" from an intelligence stand point. I = look forward to hearing what you fellows have to say. Thanks. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C0A68C.ADF94280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

there is far more material in personal = collections than=20 there is in museums. The museum opening in Savannah in 1996 was a = godsend,=20 because it gave veterans and families a place to send their stuff rather = than=20 have to tossed out, and therefore it will be available to historians a = hundred=20 years from now. I have worked about six year to build up material here, = and=20 invested about $50,000, nearly all of that covered by sales of = lithographs of=20 paintings I have commissioned. Frankly, there isn't much room left here = to=20 display stuff. If Molesworth ever closes, I am making provisions that = all of it=20 becomes property of the museum in Savannah.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd=20 J Grant
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 11:20=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Photographs

Brian, I understant that the = sensitivity issue is=20 no longer germaine today. It might have had some serious = ramifictions if=20 German intelligence acquired information from them. I refer to = the=20 discussion we had a week or so ago about what the Germans knew about = POW=20 airmen during their interrogation.

I will gladly scan anything and send = it to you=20 that I find in the photos I have ( first I have to get my comuter = fixed, then=20 figure out how to use the scanner properly) anything any = legitimate=20 museum needs that I have I will gladly donate, but don't get too = excited, most=20 of it is probably in some dump because someone felt it was just some = old mans=20 junk. Sigh.

Lloyd.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian McGuire
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 5:35=20 PM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Photographs

If those photos are WWII vintage they would = no longer=20 be sensitive. But they are extremely valuable to historians and I = hope that=20 anyone having a stash would consider sending them to the Savannah = museum so=20 they would be preserved. Some years ago Mike Hlastala gave me a = small stack=20 of BDA photos and I made a display of them showing how imagery = intelligence=20 was done in the 8th. It is of interest to the people at Molesworth = today and=20 still hangs in our main ops building (the Might in Flight Buidling). = Would=20 gradly take any more that people want to contribute. We have scores = hanging=20 up at Molesworth, many courtesy of Bill Carter (Ames, IA) who let us = make=20 copies of many of his personal photos in 1992-3.

Brian McGuire

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Lloyd J Grant
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2001 6:15=20 PM

Subject: [303rd-Talk]=20 Photographs

This question is designed with = Garys' advice=20 in mind, I hope it elicits some response because I have a real=20 curiousity.

At one time my father had an = entire box of=20 photographs, some of targets being bombed , some of aircraft in = trouble,=20 or going down, pictures of crews and so on. ( It appears this box = is=20 irrevokably lost, tho a few photos survived). Did you have = to have a=20 "need to know" , or some other form of permission to obtain these=20 photos? It seems like everyone I talk to has a cache of = them. =20 I doubt that you would be permitted to send them home, or = otherwise show=20 them about. Were the photos issued for a specific reason to = crews=20 Ie. debriefings, or were they souveniers of reminiscence. = Some of=20 the photos look as tho they may have been somewhat "sensitive" = from an=20 intelligence stand point. I look forward to hearing what you = fellows=20 have to say. Thanks. =20 Lloyd.

------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C0A68C.ADF94280-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:34:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:34:48 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A NOBLE SPIRIT - Alvin L. Morton References: <001701c0a5cf$f59b8fc0$2bbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <017801c0a690$730ff160$6c0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C0A68D.A6AF9BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Give Alvin Morton a call; he's in the directory. Or call Dorrance = Publishing at (412) 288-4543. Their address is 643 Smithfield St, = Pittsburgh, PA 15222. Brian M ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] A NOBLE SPIRIT - Alvin L. Morton I have checked with Walden Book store in Grand Island NE. The name = and author came up on the computer but the store can not get it & no = other information listed. Amazon lists it at $43.75. Dorrance = Publishing Company's web site does not list it. Any idea where I can = obtain a copy? Date of publication???---- still in print??? THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C0A68D.A6AF9BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Give Alvin Morton a call; he's in the directory. = Or call=20 Dorrance Publishing at (412) 288-4543. Their address is 643 Smithfield = St,=20 Pittsburgh, PA 15222.

Brian M

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 = 11:56=20 PM

Subject: [303rd-Talk] A NOBLE = SPIRIT -=20 Alvin L. Morton

I have checked with Walden Book store = in Grand=20 Island NE. The name and author came up on the computer but the = store can=20 not get it & no other information listed. Amazon lists = it at=20 $43.75. Dorrance Publishing Company's web site = does not=20 list it. Any idea where I can = obtain a copy?=20 Date of publication???---- still in print???

THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I = leave

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C0A68D.A6AF9BE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:28:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:28:50 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton References: <41.843e386.27d5790c@aol.com> Message-ID: <017601c0a690$6db12040$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Right on, Spec. Any higher, though, and I would have to take off my shoes. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Politics and Bill Clinton > brian all should hold and count to ten before expressing an opinion of > controversy. spec > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:39:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:39:13 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> <00a101c0a5bf$7bf404a0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <001301c0a5cf$46dee540$48f833cf@richards> <3AA46380.9D72AB5D@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <017901c0a690$754a9f20$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Bill - Spider was talking about the bar fight. If there was more than one Irishman, I wouldn't have asked the question because the answer would be obvious. Cheers, mates! Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > Spider, you are respectfully wrong. Somebody DID win! > > Cheers! > > Dick Smith wrote: > > > Nobody > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian McGuire" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > Spider - > > > Who won?? > > > > > > Brian MCGUIRE (McGuire!!) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Dick Smith > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:31 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > > > > SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT LAKE > > > CITY > > > > TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED HOURS IN > > > > 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY AND > > > > PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS CORNER > > > > IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN > > IRISHMAN > > > > INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. > > > > KEEP EM FLYING > > > > SPIDER SMITH > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM > > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi You All, > > > > > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before my > > > last > > > > > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and > > Copilots, > > > > > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when you > > > met > > > > > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 without > > > an > > > > > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is > > satisfactory. > > > > Any > > > > > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would be > > > > > appreciated. Thank You. > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 22:54:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:54:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA48C7A.20459.266C2B@localhost> <000501c0a653$117ee880$07904d0c@d2k> <3AA51D95.F9BCA287@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a679$54f26800$368f4d0c@d2k> <3AA567FA.7337F877@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <001301c0a690$77578620$5c904d0c@d2k> As far as Garys' reminder, Uwe, I think everyone here agreed. Although we all seem to have strong feelings on the subject, this is not a political forum, nor is it the place to voice derogatory and inflamatory rhetoric. It is a place for good friends to meet , reflect, share information and discuss a topic of mutual interest; to wit the 303rd BG, and related points of interest. I look forward to many enjoyable conversations and exchanges. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > Aha, Lloyd, now I got it.... > Sorry, guess I´m not able to give any hint on this topic, but I´m sure > the > German "Abwehr" ( under its chief Adm. Canaris) certainly had been > interested in > any of these pics if found by bailed - out crewmembers or by agents who > "worked" > in England close to the airfields... > Anyway, hope you´ll get an answer on this. > > Watched this discussion about "politics" etc.... It´s not on me to get > into that > - I preferred to keep out of this-, but just let me point out shortly > that I > agree with Gary believing that this board and its members should be > proud of > their heritage and in providing first hand history > information........talking > about some specific political affairs and their "producers" isn´t worth > a dime > nor getting into trouble with each other .......nevertheless, from time > to time > some views have to be pointed out. > > Best to you all, > > Uwe Wiedemann > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Hello Uwe, My original question was in regard to how individuals obtained > > photos of planes in formation, targets, and so forth. It occurred to me > > that these photos could have some intelligence value if they fell into the > > hands of German military intelligence ( the Abweir???). My father had quite > > a few of these photos showing planes in formation, crippled , or going down. > > I was wondering if they were given out for a specific reason, or perhaps > > just made available, or "souvenired" (unofficially obtained). I have not > > heard anyone specifically address this question, or have missed the reply. > > I may not have put the question very well. I will wait awhile before I ask > > it again. It is good to hear from you, Uwe. LG. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 12:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > > Lloyd, > > > > > > just know of the University of Keele at Keele, Kent, GB, who has got a > > very huge > > > Air Photo Library concerning pics of Brit. & US targets between 1942 and > > 1945. > > > Got me some copies of US photos of my hometown Augsburg there, dated Febr. > > & > > > March 44 and some of 45. > > > Sorry, don´t know of any similar US institutions. > > > > > > Kind regards, Uwe from Germany > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > > > Bill , perhaps someone on the ring has connections to a Unversity or > > College > > > > that might have expertise in this area. It seems a real shame that > > these > > > > documents cannot be better preserved. It is ironic that historical > > objects > > > > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be > > preserved > > > > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to > > molder > > > > and disintegrate. LG. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bill Jones" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:06 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > > > > > > > > Bill, My birth certificate from Clark Field is typed on a piece of > > > > yellowed > > > > > > crumbling foolscap. Fearing that I might slip back into some > > > > irrevokable > > > > > > time warp, I hit upon the idea of encasing the proof of my birth in > > a > > > > vacuum > > > > > > locked zip-lock bag. Weirdly enough, it works, and can be > > photocopied > > > > thru > > > > > > the plastic. This is also a good way to preserve old photographs. > > Zip > > > > the > > > > > > lock on the bag at least 3/4 of the way closed, push out as much air > > as > > > > > > possible by hand, or, if you have the apperatus available, by > > mechanical > > > > > > vacuum. It is cheap, and it works. Cheers. LG. > > > > > > > > > > I've done something similar with the old briefing sheets and things I > > > > found in my father's > > > > > things. I've put them in plastic sheet protectors, and put them in a > > > > 3-ring binder. > > > > > Works pretty well, and I can look at them without hurting them. > > > > > > > > > > Problem with much of the stuff up at the NARA Archives though is that > > the > > > > teletype > > > > > sheets are 3 feet long or longer, so to read them at all, you have to > > > > un-fold them, and > > > > > they seem to crumble most at the folds. I'm not sure what they could > > do > > > > about that. I > > > > > was thinking that they should strike some deal that people would get > > free > > > > copying if > > > > > you make them an archival copy, or if they would microfilm the > > contents of > > > > a box when > > > > > you request it, so that future people wouldn't have to handle the > > > > material. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 6 23:10:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:10:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: Message-ID: <001901c0a692$9e1842c0$5c904d0c@d2k> Thanks Spec. I didn't mean to imply any breech of security. I was mostly curious about how, what, where and why the photos were distributed. These boxes of photographs our dads, brothers, uncles and so forth brought home are part of the reason a lot of us younger guys are here trying to put together the missing pieces. Obviously, no one that had to fly into the flak and fighters was going do anything to assist the guys who were trying to shoot them down. If it is a "sensitive" subject I will gladly withdraw the question. I have noticed that when a question is generally ignored it is a clue to leave that subject area alone. cheers. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > seems our pow all our info ,so photos would not be too great a thing. 's > found that the nazi's knew > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 13:35:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:35:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Message-ID: <53.336c559.27d79316@aol.com> I have been interested in your discussion of photos and think I can tell a story from my own experience-in early Dec 1944 we got snowed in at Bangor MA for a week with a nnew G on our way to England and each crewman could buy one roll of film a day at the PX which we did and as I owned the only camera-I became our crew's photographer and we arrived at Molesworth later that month with about 20-30 rols of 120 film-8exp to a roll-I had aan Agfa camera that worked well at altitude and taught our WG-Ken Boone of Baltimore how to use it and we were in business; found a man at the base photo lab who said he would develop them on his own time-keep the negatives and give them to me when I finished, and if I didn't he would get them to my parents in IA after the war. I did , he did, prints were made after we got back to the states and copies sent to each of our crew. We were one of the last crews to finish and leave Molesworth and were at Stone England on our way home on VE-day. The commander of the photo lab knew of our interest and we often checke out cameras to put in the camera well for strike photos and I generally had a gun camera mounted in the BT. My wife and I were back at Moles worth in 1992 and I told this story and they asked if I would send them any negatives I had which I did and they reworked and restored all they could and returned them to me. As to the German intelligence-many times you could get a reasonably accurate report in the evening at the NAFFI as to what Groups had been up that day, damage, and even the correction neede on the clock on the Naffi wall. That' my phpto talw! Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 15:02:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:02:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <53.336c559.27d79316@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c0a717$92ef0c00$6c904d0c@d2k> Bill, I appreciate you taking the time to throw some light on the subject of the photo's, and your comment about the information available in the NAFFI makes sense. The German Abwehr was pretty efficient in many arenas of intelligence gathering, so I doubt that they relied heavily on these photographs to undermine our war effort. Most of the pictures I have look like they were official military photo's, but maybe a lot of guys were free lancing like you all. If you don't mind me tossing another question your way, you mentioned something that I had not previously thought about. You say you had a gun camera mounted in your ball turret; was this standard equipment on aircraft? And how did the camera work when you were firing your guns? Thanks again, Bill. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > I have been interested in your discussion of photos and think I can tell a > story from my own experience-in early Dec 1944 we got snowed in at Bangor MA > for a week with a nnew G on our way to England and each crewman could buy one > roll of film > a day at the PX which we did and as I owned the only camera-I became our > crew's photographer and we arrived at Molesworth later that month with about > 20-30 rols of 120 film-8exp to a roll-I had aan Agfa camera that worked well > at altitude and taught our WG-Ken Boone of Baltimore how to use it and we > were in business; found a man at the base photo lab who said he would develop > them on his own time-keep the negatives and give them to me when I finished, > and if I didn't he would get them to my parents in IA after the war. I did , > he did, prints were made after we got back to the states and copies sent to > each of our crew. We were one of the last crews to finish and leave > Molesworth and were at Stone England on our way home on VE-day. > The commander of the photo lab knew of our interest and we often checke out > cameras to put in the camera well for strike photos and I generally had a gun > camera mounted in the BT. My wife and I were back at Moles worth in 1992 and > I told this story and they asked if I would send them any negatives I had > which I did and they reworked and restored all they could and returned them > to me. As to the German intelligence-many times you could get a reasonably > accurate report in the evening at the NAFFI as to what Groups had been up > that day, damage, and even the correction neede on the clock on the Naffi > wall. That' my phpto talw! > Bill Carter > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 16:06:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:06:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website Message-ID: Dick: Have there been any books written about the Scouting Force that you know of. I know very little about this subject and would like to learn more. Thanks for all you help Dick! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:35:26 -0800 > >Kevin : > I heard last night that Patton was a member of the third Scouting Force , >that's the same outfit I was flying P51's in only the Third Division. > Spider >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:25 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > > > > Hi Spider: I saw Tom Brokaw the first night they announced the finding >of > > this downed American airman, William Patton, and I was very disappointed > > they did not list more of his history, like Group, date of crash. The >next > > night they gave more of the details as they unfolded. I am very >thankful >we > > have not forgotten those who fell 50+ years ago. The second night you >could > > see the respect and admiration in Brokaw's eyes. > > > > So any more news on William Patton? > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > > >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: pyker > > >To: Lloyd J Grant > > >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM > > >Subject: RE: Your website > > > > > > > > >Grant, > > > > > >Many thanks for the message. > > > > > >Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all >the > > >enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in >France. > > >Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is >quite > > >gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials >etc. > > > > > >Please give my fondest regards to Spider. > > > > > >Peter > > > > > >*************************************** > > >Peter Randall > > > > > >mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > > > >Little Friends home page: > > >http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk > > > > > >Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: > > >http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall > > > > > >*************************************** > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > > > Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 > > > To: pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > Subject: Your website > > > > > > > > > Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk >forum. > > >Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, but I am >very > > >impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have bookmarked the >site > > >and will return when I can devote my full attention. > > > My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. > > > Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put >into > > >this page. > > > Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 17:45:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:45:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website References: Message-ID: <002b01c0a72e$72691f40$6c904d0c@d2k> Kevin, I apparently missed the Patton commentary. I had my computer on html which may be the reason I am not getting some answers to questions I post. Gary says it screws up the system if you are not writing in plain text. I think I have now got my settings right, but like I said, I missed the Patton commentary and seeing your message to Spider has goaded my curiousity. What was the story? (if you don't mind my asking). Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > Hi Spider: I saw Tom Brokaw the first night they announced the finding of > this downed American airman, William Patton, and I was very disappointed > they did not list more of his history, like Group, date of crash. The next > night they gave more of the details as they unfolded. I am very thankful we > have not forgotten those who fell 50+ years ago. The second night you could > see the respect and admiration in Brokaw's eyes. > > So any more news on William Patton? > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: pyker > >To: Lloyd J Grant > >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM > >Subject: RE: Your website > > > > > >Grant, > > > >Many thanks for the message. > > > >Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all the > >enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in France. > >Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is quite > >gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials etc. > > > >Please give my fondest regards to Spider. > > > >Peter > > > >*************************************** > >Peter Randall > > > >mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > >Little Friends home page: > >http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk > > > >Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: > >http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall > > > >*************************************** > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > > Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 > > To: pyker@dircon.co.uk > > Subject: Your website > > > > > > Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk forum. > >Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, but I am very > >impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have bookmarked the site > >and will return when I can devote my full attention. > > My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. > > Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put into > >this page. > > Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 17:50:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:50:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <3AA4E435.22556.17D2A98@localhost> Message-ID: <003501c0a72f$2446dfe0$6c904d0c@d2k> Bill, Like the "Portrait of Dorien Grey" I hope my birth certificate does'nt crumble before I am "ready". (grin) Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > > > It is ironic that historical objects > > like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Shroud of Turin and so on can be preserved > > over hundreds of years, yet the records you mention are allowed to molder > > and disintegrate. LG. > > I didn't mean to infer that they were getting moldy or that they were not being kept in a > good environment. I'm sure that they are kept in environmentally controlled conditions. > It's just that some of the materials are on a type paper that just seems to naturally get > brittle with age, regardless of how they are kept. I'm convinced that they are doing the > best job that is possible. They could probably extend their life a bit by keeping them > locked up, but then no-one could see them. > It's kind of like the national parks. Ie to preserve them you have to keep the people > out, but then no-one could get any benefit out of them. > > BTW, an example of what I was referring to is at: > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/aaanara08.jpg > Ie the documents are still in fairly good shape, but if you scroll down about half way, > where it says intervalometer (I assume this is a bombardier setting?) , you can see > how the documents are crumbling where they were folded. Ie perhaps not as bad as I > had made it seem, but it was just a shame to see little sections of the documents fall > onto the table. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 22:24:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:24:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website Message-ID: Last week the French uncovered a P-51 and remains of her pilot, William Patton, and it was on World News Tonight three days running. Patton, Spider thought, was with the 1st Scouting Force and his group was doing some checking to see what they could find, but as it turned out, Patton was with the 3rd SF, and Spider actually flew a couple of missions with him! >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website >Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:45:48 -0500 > >Kevin, I apparently missed the Patton commentary. I had my computer on >html >which may be the reason I am not getting some answers to questions I post. >Gary says it screws up the system if you are not writing in plain text. I >think I have now got my settings right, but like I said, I missed the >Patton >commentary and seeing your message to Spider has goaded my curiousity. >What >was the story? (if you don't mind my asking). Lloyd. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:25 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > > > > Hi Spider: I saw Tom Brokaw the first night they announced the finding >of > > this downed American airman, William Patton, and I was very disappointed > > they did not list more of his history, like Group, date of crash. The >next > > night they gave more of the details as they unfolded. I am very >thankful >we > > have not forgotten those who fell 50+ years ago. The second night you >could > > see the respect and admiration in Brokaw's eyes. > > > > So any more news on William Patton? > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Your website > > >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:55 -0500 > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: pyker > > >To: Lloyd J Grant > > >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:11 PM > > >Subject: RE: Your website > > > > > > > > >Grant, > > > > > >Many thanks for the message. > > > > > >Sorry for the delay in getting back, been pretty busy dealing with all >the > > >enquiries about the finding of Lt. William patton and the P-51 in >France. > > >Pretty certain now that he is a member of 3rd Scouting Force which is >quite > > >gratifying that we can do the "proper thing" in the way of memorials >etc. > > > > > >Please give my fondest regards to Spider. > > > > > >Peter > > > > > >*************************************** > > >Peter Randall > > > > > >mailto:pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > > > >Little Friends home page: > > >http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk > > > > > >Fighting Scouts of the 8th Air Force: > > >http://homepages.tesco.net/~j.randall > > > > > >*************************************** > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lloyd J Grant [mailto:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > > > Sent: 17 February 2001 23:47 > > > To: pyker@dircon.co.uk > > > Subject: Your website > > > > > > > > > Was referred here by Dick "Spider" Smith from the 303rd BGA talk >forum. > > >Not enough time on hand to give it anything but a quick look, but I am >very > > >impressed by what you have accomplished here. I have bookmarked the >site > > >and will return when I can devote my full attention. > > > My dad was 427th, 303rd BG(H), my mum was from Cambridge. > > > Thank you Mr. Peter Randall for the tribute and the effort you put >into > > >this page. > > > Lloyd Grant. Lakeland, Fl. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 7 23:21:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:21:22 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Message-ID: <57.128660c9.27d81c72@aol.com> Loyd- As I remember, on a couple of occasions one was assigned to me and installed in the turret; and a couple of times I asked for one. Ibelieve there was an independent switch on the camera which let you operate the camera individually without firing the gunss-I also thik that it was so wired that if you depressed either or both firing buttons it started the camera. These points I am not sure of; it was 16mm movie film-also made good tracking shots of the bomb hits. On the two occasions where I fired at fighters, I did not have a camera. Time has a way of distorting some of these memories. It is refreshing to follow the discussions onthis site and gratifying to know that so many of the later generations have an interest in that piece of history. I do hope that Gary's comments will keep the politics out of any further messages. Bill Carter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 00:21:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:21:43 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time References: <000f01c0a4e1$c7d07c20$1df833cf@richards> <00a101c0a5bf$7bf404a0$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <001301c0a5cf$46dee540$48f833cf@richards> <3AA46380.9D72AB5D@attglobal.net> <017901c0a690$754a9f20$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <00d601c0a765$c1c19a40$6cf833cf@richards> SPOKEN AS A TRUE IRISHMAN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > Bill - > Spider was talking about the bar fight. If there was more than one Irishman, > I wouldn't have asked the question because the answer would be obvious. > > Cheers, mates! > > Brian McGuire > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > Spider, you are respectfully wrong. Somebody DID win! > > > > Cheers! > > > > Dick Smith wrote: > > > > > Nobody > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Brian McGuire" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:53 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > Spider - > > > > Who won?? > > > > > > > > Brian MCGUIRE (McGuire!!) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Dick Smith > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:31 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPIDER HAD 0 HOURS IN A B17 WHEN I MET MY CREW. WE WENT FROM SALT > LAKE > > > > CITY > > > > > TO ARDMORE OK AND BEGAN TRAINING ,MY PILOT HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED > HOURS IN > > > > > 17'S. WE GOT A LOT OF TIME REAL FAST AND WENT TO KEARNEY ,NB IN MAY > AND > > > > > PICKED UP A NEW B17 WHICH WE FLEW OVER TO ENGLAND BY WAY OF NUTS > CORNER > > > > > IRELAND . WE GOT IN A BAR FIGHT OUR FIRST NIGHT OVER SEAS WHEN AN > > > IRISHMAN > > > > > INSULTED MY BOMBARDIERS DAD. > > > > > KEEP EM FLYING > > > > > SPIDER SMITH > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Cc: ; <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com>; > > > > > ; ; ; > > > > > ; > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:00 AM > > > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 Time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi You All, > > > > > > I have been answering questions on this Internet since before > my > > > > last > > > > > > birthday. Now I want to ask one. You Pilots, First Pilots and > > > Copilots, > > > > > > Please indicate which. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU HAVE IN A. B17 when > you > > > > met > > > > > > your combat crew and made your first flight with them in a B17 > without > > > > an > > > > > > instructor or check pilot aboard? An approximate answer is > > > satisfactory. > > > > > Any > > > > > > other comments without profanity, dirty words, or criticism would > be > > > > > > appreciated. Thank You. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 00:49:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:49:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <57.128660c9.27d81c72@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c0a769$9b996560$8a194e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, I realize that " a lot of water has passed under the bridge". I was filling out a job application a couple of years ago, and I could not remember dates or names from only five years before. It amazes me that you guys can recall some of the stuff you do in such detail. Please remember this, Bill , the younger guys here ( hell, we are in our forties and fifties, but I guess we are a bit younger than you all) are dedicated to remembering what you did and accomplished, and it is damned important that we get it right. Everything you can remember and pass on is important beyond what you all may think. Every snippet, and every slight memory counts to the sum of knowledge; otherwise who will tell the story; Hollywood? I encourage you to participate in this forum, Bill, as often as possible. And, pull us youngsters up fast and tight if we get out of line. Bill, I think to a man, we all appreciate Gary pulling us up short about the political comments, and everyone has apologized. It won't happen again, so the whole thing is best forgotten. Thank you very much, believe it or not the information you sent is extremely helpful. CZ (cheers). Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > Loyd- > As I remember, on a couple of occasions one was assigned to me and installed > in the turret; and a couple of times I asked for one. Ibelieve there was an > independent switch on the camera which let you operate the camera > individually without firing the gunss-I also thik that it was so wired that > if you depressed either or both firing buttons it started the camera. These > points I am not sure of; it was 16mm movie film-also made good tracking shots > of the bomb hits. On the two occasions where I fired at fighters, I did not > have a camera. Time has a way of distorting some of these memories. It is > refreshing to follow the discussions onthis site and gratifying to know that > so many of the later generations have an interest in that piece of history. > I do hope that Gary's comments will keep the politics out of any further > messages. > Bill Carter > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 02:21:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:21:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A NOBLE SPIRIT Message-ID: <002901c0a776$710c87c0$59bb9ace@mjpmtman> BRIAN ---- THANK YOU FOR THE INFO.--I knew that all the time --- just couldn't THINK of it----even looked in Personnel to be sure he was with the 303rd D-A-A-A !! THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 20:54:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:54:29 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs References: <53.336c559.27d79316@aol.com> Message-ID: <017d01c0a817$dec46160$5a0110ac@Betac.com> Bill - I had not heard that story. People here at Molesworth will be interested to know the genesis of so many of the photos we have hanging up. Thanks. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Photographs > I have been interested in your discussion of photos and think I can tell a > story from my own experience-in early Dec 1944 we got snowed in at Bangor MA > for a week with a nnew G on our way to England and each crewman could buy one > roll of film > a day at the PX which we did and as I owned the only camera-I became our > crew's photographer and we arrived at Molesworth later that month with about > 20-30 rols of 120 film-8exp to a roll-I had aan Agfa camera that worked well > at altitude and taught our WG-Ken Boone of Baltimore how to use it and we > were in business; found a man at the base photo lab who said he would develop > them on his own time-keep the negatives and give them to me when I finished, > and if I didn't he would get them to my parents in IA after the war. I did , > he did, prints were made after we got back to the states and copies sent to > each of our crew. We were one of the last crews to finish and leave > Molesworth and were at Stone England on our way home on VE-day. > The commander of the photo lab knew of our interest and we often checke out > cameras to put in the camera well for strike photos and I generally had a gun > camera mounted in the BT. My wife and I were back at Moles worth in 1992 and > I told this story and they asked if I would send them any negatives I had > which I did and they reworked and restored all they could and returned them > to me. As to the German intelligence-many times you could get a reasonably > accurate report in the evening at the NAFFI as to what Groups had been up > that day, damage, and even the correction neede on the clock on the Naffi > wall. That' my phpto talw! > Bill Carter > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 19:40:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:40:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Test test test Message-ID: <003401c0a807$9f4f84c0$ec8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Just got old " Joe BTFSPLK III" out of the repair hanger. Checking my web ring connection with 303rd BGA-talk. Can you read me? Over. Lloyd Grant , palidin@worldnet.att.net. Thanks From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 14:50:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:50:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested Message-ID: I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I got interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across books about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war in Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, and others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember reading about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I started building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I could legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never talk to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. I started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I went to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! Flying on the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become a 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I have done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became secretary of the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day still publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy bomber and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites at Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th BS lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with two members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the next year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the Bulge. How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the 8th, but the internet changed that. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 8 15:41:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:41:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photographs Message-ID: <42.11b4b7aa.27d90239@aol.com> While at Molesworth, I processed my own B&W film by draping blankets over the lower bunk. Chemicals bought in London along with the Voightlander Bessa camera I got at Selfriges. Worked fine if you didn't mind a few streaks here and there. A forerunner of the 1-hour processing of today. Cheeers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 00:55:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 19:55:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <000b01c0a833$a85dec60$bd8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Dang, Kevin, not intended to be facetious, but does someone in your family own a travel agency, or do you just have a really good paying job with liberal time off. How do you manage all these trips? No wonder you are a prize for resource material. I grew up in the Air Force. I guarantee you I can recall the smell of the inside of a B47 to this day. My dad flew with the 303rd early on and was one of the original crews. Like you , I was reading way past my years and read through most of the volumes of Winston Churchills' history of the war. After my father died I started digging around through some old photographs and became interested in finding out more information. Voila! Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I got > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across books > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war in > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, and > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember reading > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I started > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I could > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never talk > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. I > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I went > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! Flying on > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become a > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I have > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became secretary of > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day still > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy bomber > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites at > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th BS > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with two > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the next > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > Bulge. > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > 8th, but the internet changed that. > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 19:39:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:39:40 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #191 - 5 msgs Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1DF1E@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > 8th, but the internet changed that. > Kevin > > Well that is a good question Kevin. I was born in 1959 my dad was a officer in the Army as a combat engineer. I grew up with him pining some old Lt. bars on my shoulders. We were the TV generation right? I bet you watched General Savage kick the 918th Bomb Group into high gear when "12 o'clock High" was on TV in the mid 1960's. I read every WWII book my library had.. 30 seconds over Tokyo, Black Friday, Guadalcanal Diary etc. My dentist and deacon of the church was a WWII pursuit pilot. Did I build model aircraft? By the dozens! The B-25 Mitchell was a favorite! Years rolled by, I took HISTORY in college. I met one of my best friends a number of years ago Warren Beecroft, Bombardier with the 447th BG. I will blame him for introducing me to the 8th Air Force Historical Society here in Washington State. I found some of the best and most honorable men here, men of backbone and integrity. They nominated me and I became chapter President...why? Because I owe them a BIG debt and THANK YOU. They preserved our freedoms, more so that our elected officials. It easy to get caught up in the "romance" of the WWII AAF, Leather jackets with cheesecake paintings, 50 mission crushers, P-51's chasing FW-190's, silver wings on a tunic. But there was a very painful price for that glitter, many woman became widows, many empty seats at the town meetings and Sunday morning services. Wheelchairs and canes are now used. My father put it best I think "History is a tool to learn from". I learned that there is such a thing called "A debt of Honor". To the WWII veterans who reads this Thank you for your service, well done! Greg Pierce From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 21:30:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:30:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] DEVELOPING PHOTOS Message-ID: <001001c0a8e0$2e8e6b00$a2bb9ace@mjpmtman> LeRoy Connelly [he was the instigator - I was the learner] and I rigged up a "dark room" in a wing panel box in the Reparable hanger. The little 620 Kodak I had turned out some pretty good pictures. I sent Bill Jones an 8 X 12 made from one of negatives. The resolution was good enough that you can read the serial number [#297546 ] in the enlargement. We "borrowed our cnemicals and paper from the photo section. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 21:47:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:47:00 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #191 - 5 msgs References: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1DF1E@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <3AA94F54.BB0F2ECF@attglobal.net> Thank YOU, Greg Pierce! Cheers! BILL HELLER "Pierce, Gregory S" wrote: > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > Kevin > > > > > Well that is a good question Kevin. I was born in 1959 my dad was > a officer in the Army as a combat engineer. I grew up with him pining > some old Lt. bars on my shoulders. We were the TV generation right? > I bet you watched General Savage kick the 918th Bomb Group into > high gear when "12 o'clock High" was on TV in the mid 1960's. I read every > WWII book my library had.. 30 seconds over Tokyo, Black Friday, > Guadalcanal Diary etc. My dentist and deacon of the church was a > WWII pursuit pilot. Did I build model aircraft? By the dozens! The B-25 > Mitchell was a favorite! Years rolled by, I took HISTORY in college. > I met one of my best friends a number of years ago Warren Beecroft, > Bombardier with the 447th BG. I will blame him for introducing me > to the 8th Air Force Historical Society here in Washington State. > I found some of the best and most honorable men here, men of > backbone and integrity. They nominated me and I became chapter > President...why? Because I owe them a BIG debt and THANK YOU. > They preserved our freedoms, more so that our elected officials. > It easy to get caught up in the "romance" of the WWII AAF, Leather > jackets with cheesecake paintings, 50 mission crushers, P-51's > chasing FW-190's, silver wings on a tunic. But there was a very > painful price for that glitter, many woman became widows, many > empty seats at the town meetings and Sunday morning services. > Wheelchairs and canes are now used. My father put it best I think > "History is a tool to learn from". I learned that there is such a thing > called "A debt of Honor". To the WWII veterans who reads this Thank you > for your service, well done! > > Greg Pierce > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 22:19:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:19:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] DEVELOPING PHOTOS In-Reply-To: <001001c0a8e0$2e8e6b00$a2bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > LeRoy Connelly [he was the instigator - I was the learner] and I rigged up a > "dark room" in a wing panel box in the Reparable hanger. The little 620 > Kodak I had turned out some pretty good pictures. I sent Bill Jones an 8 X > 12 made from one of negatives. The resolution was good enough that you can > read the serial number [#297546 ] in the enlargement. We "borrowed our > cnemicals and paper from the photo section. > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. > Maurice J. Paulk THe photo Maurice refers to above in on the "Misc pictures taken at Molesworth" section of my home page, ie: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/misc303.html His picture of Idaliza in front of the hangar (I forget what the name of the hangar was), was better than the scanned image, which I reduced in resolution to save space on the web page (I'm borrowing web space, so I'm trying to be frugal with space). The picture is down at the very bottom of the page (sorry it takes a long time for the other images to load). ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 23:14:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:14:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #191 - 5 msgs References: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1DF1E@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0a8ee$bc3ef7e0$8b8e4d0c@o3n4f8> High five Greg, and thumbs up with regard to your remarks. A lot of people associate the movie depictions with their realities, ie. 50 mission crush caps, bomber jackets and so on. I was one of them. Anyone who has ever experienced severe cold and wind chill on the ground would probably understand and appreciate the tremendously sub-arctic environment these men flew in. If people realized how cold it is at 20-25,000 ft. ( even in August) they may have a greater respect for the hardships involved in just being in an unpressurized aircraft at those altitudes, let alone all the other "bravo sierra" that they endured. Thanks for writing, "youngster". Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pierce, Gregory S To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #191 - 5 msgs > > > From: "Kevin Pearson" > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > Kevin > > > > > Well that is a good question Kevin. I was born in 1959 my dad was > a officer in the Army as a combat engineer. I grew up with him pining > some old Lt. bars on my shoulders. We were the TV generation right? > I bet you watched General Savage kick the 918th Bomb Group into > high gear when "12 o'clock High" was on TV in the mid 1960's. I read every > WWII book my library had.. 30 seconds over Tokyo, Black Friday, > Guadalcanal Diary etc. My dentist and deacon of the church was a > WWII pursuit pilot. Did I build model aircraft? By the dozens! The B-25 > Mitchell was a favorite! Years rolled by, I took HISTORY in college. > I met one of my best friends a number of years ago Warren Beecroft, > Bombardier with the 447th BG. I will blame him for introducing me > to the 8th Air Force Historical Society here in Washington State. > I found some of the best and most honorable men here, men of > backbone and integrity. They nominated me and I became chapter > President...why? Because I owe them a BIG debt and THANK YOU. > They preserved our freedoms, more so that our elected officials. > It easy to get caught up in the "romance" of the WWII AAF, Leather > jackets with cheesecake paintings, 50 mission crushers, P-51's > chasing FW-190's, silver wings on a tunic. But there was a very > painful price for that glitter, many woman became widows, many > empty seats at the town meetings and Sunday morning services. > Wheelchairs and canes are now used. My father put it best I think > "History is a tool to learn from". I learned that there is such a thing > called "A debt of Honor". To the WWII veterans who reads this Thank you > for your service, well done! > > Greg Pierce > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 9 23:59:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:59:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #191 - 5 msgs Message-ID: <7f.1144881d.27dac871@aol.com> --part1_7f.1144881d.27dac871_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to All: I was born in 1949. My father was in the Army Air Force along with his brother. His brother was with the 8th AF. He was a waist gunner and was killed on 1/11/44 on his 50th mission. He was with the 482BG, 812BS at that time. I grew up with him as my hero, my family would not talk about him at all (Old Irish Family). I read all I could about the 8th AF. The older I became the more I wanted to know. The Internet with this list along with the Heavy Bombers list has given me more information than I could ever find on my own. I have the most respect for these veterans and what they accomplish. Many times in my life when things were not going right I thought of my uncle and the 8th and said to myself, I can do this, Look at what they did. This has helped me many times. Anyway, Thanks guys for what you did. Bill Keane --part1_7f.1144881d.27dac871_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to All:
   I was born in 1949. My father was in the Army Air Force along with his
brother. His brother was with the 8th AF. He was a waist gunner and was
killed on 1/11/44 on his 50th mission. He was with the 482BG, 812BS at that
time. I grew up with him as my hero, my family would not talk about him at
all (Old Irish Family). I read all I could about the 8th AF. The older I
became the more I wanted to know. The Internet with this list along with the
Heavy Bombers list has given me more information than I could ever find on my
own. I have the most respect for these veterans and what they
accomplish. Many times in my life when things were not going right I thought
of my uncle and the 8th and said to myself, I can do this, Look at what they
did. This has helped me many times. Anyway, Thanks guys for what you did.

           Bill Keane --part1_7f.1144881d.27dac871_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 13:55:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:55:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Message-ID: <000f01c0a969$c78646a0$1b3f22d1@billowen> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0A937.7BC6DEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know whether there is anything to this or not, but thought it = was worth passing along. Bill Owen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ehearne=20 To: Bill Owen=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PM Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: marshallandmayramsey=20 To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;;=20 Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 PM Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WILLBARR@aol.com=20 To: undisclosed-recipients: ;=20 Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P proposes to charge=20 5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No more free E-mail! We knew=20 this was coming!!=20 Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge=20 on every delivered E-mail. Please read the following carefully if you=20 intend to stay online and continue using E-mail.=20 The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government=20 of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation=20 that will affect our use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation,=20 the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of=20 "alternative postage fees".=20 Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent=20 surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service=20 Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the=20 ISP.=20 Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent=20 this legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming=20 lost revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly=20 $230,000,000. in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent=20 ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." Since the average person = received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the=20 typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day - or over $180=20 per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that=20 this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a=20 service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is = dem=3D=20 ocracy and non-interference. You are already paying an exorbitant price = =3D=20 for snail mail because of bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently = tak=3D=20 es up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If = th=3D=20 e US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the = en=3D=20 d of the "free" Internet in the United States.=20 Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a=20 "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond=20 the government's proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major=20 newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the=20 Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful=20 concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do not sit=20 by and watch your freedom erode away!=20 Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends=20 and relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" = to=3D=20 Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and could very = w=3D=20 ell be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.=20 __________________________________________________ Find more posts and pictures in your Groups. __________________________________________________ Not an AOL member? Try AOL free!=20 Find out why 21 Million people have chosen AOL as=20 their ISP!=20 * Create your own Groups!=20 * Access mail from the Web=20 * See who's online with AOL Buddy List!=20 To try AOL free, please click here =20 __________________________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0A937.7BC6DEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't know whether there is anything = to this or=20 not, but thought it was worth passing along. Bill = Owen

----- Original Message -----=20

From: ehearne=20

To: Bill=20 Owen

Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PM

Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

----- Original Message -----=20

From: marshallandmayramsey

To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;; =

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 PM

Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

----- Original Message -----=20

From: WILLBARR@aol.com

To: undisclosed-recipients: ; =

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 PM

Subject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

Guess the warnings were true. Federal = Bill 602P=20 proposes to charge
5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No = more free=20 E-mail! We knew
this was coming!!

Bill 602P will = permit=20 the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge
on every delivered = E-mail.=20 Please read the following carefully if you
intend to stay = online and=20 continue using E-mail.

The last few months have revealed an = alarming=20 trend in the Government
of the United States attempting to quietly = push=20 through legislation
that will affect our use of the Internet. = Under=20 proposed legislation,
the US Postal Service will be attempting = to bill=20 E-mail users out of
"alternative postage fees".

Bill 602P = will=20 permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent
surcharge on = every=20 e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service
Providers at source. = The=20 consumer would then be billed in turn by the
ISP.

Washington = DC=20 lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent
this = legislation from=20 becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming
lost revenue, = due to=20 the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly
$230,000,000. in = revenue per=20 year. You may have noticed their recent
ad campaign: "There is = nothing=20 like a letter." Since the average person
received about 10 = pieces of=20 E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the
typical individual would be = an=20 additional 50 cents a day - or over $180
per year - above and = beyond=20 their regular Internet costs. Note that
this would be money = paid=20 directly to the US Postal Service for a
service they do not even = provide.=20 The whole point of the Internet is dem=3D
ocracy and = non-interference.=20 You are already paying an exorbitant price =3D
for snail mail = because of=20 bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently tak=3D
es up = to 6 days=20 for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If th=3D =
e US=20 Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the en=3D =
d of=20 the "free" Internet in the United States.

Congressional = representative,=20 Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
"$20-$40 per month surcharge = on all=20 Internet service" above and beyond
the government's proposed = E-mail=20 charges. Note that most of the major
newspapers have ignored = the story=20 the only exception being the
Washingtonian which called the idea of = E-mail=20 surcharge "a useful
concept who's time has come" (March 6th, = 1999=20 Editorial). Do not sit
by and watch your freedom erode away! =

Send=20 this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends
and=20 relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to=3D =
Bill=20 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and could very w=3D =
ell be=20 instrumental in killing a bill we do not want. =


_________________________________________________=
_



Find more posts and =
pictures in your Groups.


__________________________________________________=


Not an AOL member? Try AOL free!=20



Find out why 21 Million people have chosen AOL as=20

their ISP!=20

    * Create your own Groups!=20

    * Access mail from the Web=20

    * See who's online with AOL Buddy List!=20



To try AOL free, please click here  =


__________________________________________________

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0A937.7BC6DEA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 14:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <00d401c0a972$30627a60$f80110ac@Betac.com> Kevin, et al - I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have an interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian citizens, both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED experience in 1942-45. By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British airborn. Cheers from the Motherland. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I got > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across books > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war in > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, and > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember reading > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I started > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I could > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never talk > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. I > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I went > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! Flying on > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become a > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I have > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became secretary of > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day still > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy bomber > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites at > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th BS > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with two > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the next > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > Bulge. > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I used > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > 8th, but the internet changed that. > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 14:07:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:07:49 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Test test test References: <003401c0a807$9f4f84c0$ec8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00d301c0a972$2f1bf0a0$f80110ac@Betac.com> 5 by 5 Brian M ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Test test test > Just got old " Joe BTFSPLK III" out of the repair hanger. Checking my web > ring connection with 303rd BGA-talk. Can you read me? Over. > > Lloyd Grant , palidin@worldnet.att.net. Thanks > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 14:58:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:58:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! References: <000f01c0a969$c78646a0$1b3f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <00e301c0a972$869ee4e0$f80110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C0A972.84D9B540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill et al - This is totally false, and gets recirculated every so often. There is a = list somewhere on the net (don't know where right now) of scare stories = like this that will not die. Brian M ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Owen=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK OUT! I don't know whether there is anything to this or not, but thought it = was worth passing along. Bill Owen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ehearne=20 To: Bill Owen=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PM Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: marshallandmayramsey=20 To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;;=20 Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 PM Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WILLBARR@aol.com=20 To: undisclosed-recipients: ;=20 Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P proposes to charge=20 5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No more free E-mail! We knew=20 this was coming!!=20 Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent = charge=20 on every delivered E-mail. Please read the following carefully if you = intend to stay online and continue using E-mail.=20 The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government=20 of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation=20 that will affect our use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation, = the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of=20 "alternative postage fees".=20 Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent=20 surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service=20 Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the = ISP.=20 Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent=20 this legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming = lost revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly=20 $230,000,000. in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent=20 ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." Since the average = person=20 received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the=20 typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day - or over = $180=20 per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that=20 this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a=20 service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is = dem=3D=20 ocracy and non-interference. You are already paying an exorbitant = price =3D=20 for snail mail because of bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently = tak=3D=20 es up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If = th=3D=20 e US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the = en=3D=20 d of the "free" Internet in the United States.=20 Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a=20 "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond = the government's proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the = major=20 newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the=20 Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful=20 concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do not sit=20 by and watch your freedom erode away!=20 Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends=20 and relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" = to=3D=20 Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and could very = w=3D=20 ell be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.=20 __________________________________________________ Find more posts and pictures in your Groups. __________________________________________________ Not an AOL member? Try AOL free!=20 Find out why 21 Million people have chosen AOL as=20 their ISP!=20 * Create your own Groups!=20 * Access mail from the Web=20 * See who's online with AOL Buddy List!=20 To try AOL free, please click here =20 __________________________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C0A972.84D9B540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill et al -

This is totally false, and gets recirculated = every so=20 often. There is a list somewhere on the net (don't know where right now) = of=20 scare stories like this that will not die.

Brian M

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Bill = Owen=20

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 = 1:55=20 PM

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG = BROTHER IS=20 TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT!

I don't know whether there is = anything to this or=20 not, but thought it was worth passing along. Bill = Owen

----- Original Message -----=20

From: ehearne=20

To: Bill Owen

Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PM

Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

----- Original Message -----=20

From: marshallandmayramsey =

To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;;

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 PM

Subject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

----- Original Message -----=20

From: WILLBARR@aol.com

To: undisclosed-recipients: ; =

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 PM

Subject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK=20 OUT!

Guess the warnings were true. = Federal Bill 602P=20 proposes to charge
5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No = more free=20 E-mail! We knew
this was coming!!

Bill 602P will=20 permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge
on = every=20 delivered E-mail. Please read the following carefully if you =
intend=20 to stay online and continue using E-mail.

The last few months = have=20 revealed an alarming trend in the Government
of the United States=20 attempting to quietly push through legislation
that will affect = our use of=20 the Internet. Under proposed legislation,
the US = Postal=20 Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of =
"alternative=20 postage fees".

Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to = charge=20 a 5-cent
surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing = Internet=20 Service
Providers at source. The consumer would then be = billed in=20 turn by the
ISP.

Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is = working=20 without pay to prevent
this legislation from becoming law. = The US=20 Postal Service is claiming
lost revenue, due to the proliferation = of=20 E-mail, is costing nearly
$230,000,000. in revenue per year. = You may=20 have noticed their recent
ad campaign: "There is nothing like a = letter."=20 Since the average person
received about 10 pieces of E-mail = per day=20 in 1998, the cost of the
typical individual would be an additional = 50=20 cents a day - or over $180
per year - above and beyond their = regular=20 Internet costs. Note that
this would be money paid directly = to the=20 US Postal Service for a
service they do not even provide. = The whole=20 point of the Internet is dem=3D
ocracy and non-interference. = You are=20 already paying an exorbitant price =3D
for snail mail because of=20 bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently tak=3D
es up = to 6 days=20 for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If th=3D =
e US=20 Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the = en=3D
d of=20 the "free" Internet in the United States.

Congressional=20 representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
"$20-$40 per = month=20 surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond
the = government's=20 proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major=20
newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the=20
Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful=20
concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do = not sit=20
by and watch your freedom erode away!

Send this E-mail to = EVERYONE=20 on your list, and tell all your friends
and relatives to write = their=20 congressional representative and say "NO" to=3D
Bill 602P. It will = only take=20 a few moments of your time and could very w=3D
ell be instrumental = in=20 killing a bill we do not want. =


_________________________________________________=
_



Find more posts and =
pictures in your Groups.


__________________________________________________=


Not an AOL member? Try AOL free!=20



Find out why 21 Million people have chosen AOL as=20

their ISP!=20

    * Create your own Groups!=20

    * Access mail from the Web=20

    * See who's online with AOL Buddy List!=20



To try AOL free, please click here  =


__________________________________________________

------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C0A972.84D9B540-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 15:30:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:30:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! References: <000f01c0a969$c78646a0$1b3f22d1@billowen> <00e301c0a972$869ee4e0$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001301c0a977$1b9dc260$ed09f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0A933.F93E2680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://hoaxbusters.ciac.org/ is a page everyone should have a look at, at least once. Most of us have = no idea of the stuff that goes on, and how some will try to trick = surfers into something shady. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT = AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Bill et al - This is totally false, and gets recirculated every so often. There is = a list somewhere on the net (don't know where right now) of scare = stories like this that will not die. Brian M ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0A933.F93E2680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://hoaxbusters.ciac.org/

is a page everyone should have a look at, at least = once. Most=20 of us have no idea of the stuff that goes on, and how some will try to = trick=20 surfers into something shady.

Gordy.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian McGuire
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com =

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 = 6:58=20 AM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: = BIG BROTHER=20 IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT!

Bill et al -

This is totally false, and gets recirculated = every so=20 often. There is a list somewhere on the net (don't know where right = now) of=20 scare stories like this that will not die.

Brian M

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0A933.F93E2680-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 16:08:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:08:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF Message-ID: <000901c0a97c$4f785960$8eb34d0c@o3n4f8> This should be an easy one even for some of the youngsters. (understand, I am rebuilding my files and am not intentionally being redundant). I know the basics, I think. 4Sq. to a group, how many groups in a wing, how many wings in a division, and how many divisions in an Air Force? How were the associated HQ.s set up? What was the highest ranked officer permitted to fly operations routinely? Thanks. qoute for the day "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Werner Von Braun From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 16:39:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:39:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <00d401c0a972$30627a60$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <002b01c0a980$cce76a40$8eb34d0c@o3n4f8> Brian, We were stationed in England three times during my fathers career. My mother probably influenced these assignments as much as possible, she was from Cambridge). The first two assignments were in the early and mid fifties when my dad was a navigator/bombadier in the B47. Our last duty in England was at RAF Driffield in Yorkshire, a Thor missle base. One of my dads very good friends was killed in a B47 accident ( I think in fifty-three, maybe fifty-four). Two crew escaped, but the pilot stayed with the plane it order to avoid hitting a passenger train. Do you have any clue from your end how I could research this accident? I was knee high to a grasshopper at the time, but I remember how terribly this loss affected my parents and I. It is a bit off the subject of the web ring, so if you have anything that might point me in the right direction you can let me know outside the ring at: palidin@worldnet.att.net . I would like to add your e-mail address to my 303rd folder if I have your permission. Thankyou, and best. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McGuire To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Kevin, et al - > I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others > to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I > guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had > quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with > the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have an > interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I > took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back > with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of > only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop > an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world > I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of > WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember > the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight > for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were > out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the > treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They > belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian citizens, > both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > experience in 1942-45. > > By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book > on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making > the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, > was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > airborn. > > Cheers from the Motherland. > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I got > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > books > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war in > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, and > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember reading > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > started > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I could > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > talk > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. I > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > went > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! Flying > on > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become a > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > have > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became secretary > of > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day still > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > bomber > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites at > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th BS > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with > two > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the > next > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > Bulge. > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I > used > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 17:08:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:08:08 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested Message-ID: Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and what a sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day for the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to the north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, anticipating a one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was absolutely awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 Wright Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was used by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting feeling over the base that day. What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people speak with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and am amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I enlighten them! One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father of this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch Samarialaan 45 5625 RB Eindoven The Netherlands Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and his friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of the remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to you. Hennie and Henriette Boertien Jupiter 6 5527 CL Hapert The Netherlands Best of luck! Kevin >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > >Kevin, et al - >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have >an >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian >citizens, >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED >experience in 1942-45. > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British >airborn. > >Cheers from the Motherland. > >Brian >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kevin Pearson >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I >got > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across >books > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war >in > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, >and > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember >reading > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I >started > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I >could > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never >talk > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. >I > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I >went > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! >Flying >on > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become >a > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I >have > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became >secretary >of > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day >still > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy >bomber > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites >at > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th >BS > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with >two > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the >next > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > Bulge. > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I >used > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 17:15:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:15:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested Message-ID: One more thing. Alconbury has been deactivated or is already deactivated and is being turned in to an industrial estate and lorry park. Ian S. Hudson is the Project Director and her e-mail is ish@alconbury.co.uk. They are planning to preserve the tower, but will move it to a new location. It is a beautiful tower! Here is a list of questions I posed to Ian and her response if anyone is interested: Kevin My replies are in square brackets [] 28 January 2000 Ian S. Hudson, Project Director: I am writing a book about the former heavy bomber bases used by the Eighth Air Force during the Second World War. My book is a "field guide" for those wishing to visit the old stations. Recently you met a man named Ken Lux who was stationed at Alconbury during the war. He was accompanied by Peter Roberts from the East Anglian Aviation Society of which I am also a member. I am hoping you could answer a few questions for me: 1. What is the status of the airfield? I have heard a private concern is in the process of turning the old station into an industrial estate and lorry park. Is this true and is your company the one that has purchased the base? [Alconbury Developments Ltd (ADL) is in control of most of the base. We are in joint venture with the Mod and plan to turn the base into a multi-modal freight village. 7,000,000 sq.ft. of warehouses with a direct link to the East Coast Main Railway Line with the possibility of a freight only airfield. I am project Director of ADL] 2. Do you have an accurate base map, showing the location of the buildings? [Yes - what scale would you like it ?] 3. Would you have a current aerial photograph of the base? [Yes - plus 1945 & 1966 - but they are 3ft square, framed and on our reception wall.] 4. Would any of the old buildings be for sale? I have been working with a Dutch museum interested in recreating and WWII heavy bomber base and they are looking for a T-2 hangar, Nissen Huts, and Quonset Huts. [The is potential for sale - but not our WWII control tower. 5. Who is/are the present owner(s) of the base? [MoD] Any help you could provide me would be greatly appreciated. I am willing to pay for any expense you may incur in helping me. [Unless there is major expense involved, I do not want payment. I am much more interested in any help you are able to give me. ADL is very interested in commemorating the history of this base. We plan to move the WWII control tower and establish a heritage centre. Perhaps you could give some thought to potential in which we can help each other ?] Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Eighth Air Force Historical Society 2514 W. Woodland St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 001.816.232.4461 (Days) 001.816.364.5576 (Nights) Fax: 001.816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com splasher6@yahoo.com kevinmpearson@hotmail.com >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:39:49 -0500 > >Brian, We were stationed in England three times during my fathers career. > My mother probably influenced these assignments as much as possible, she >was from Cambridge). The first two assignments were in the early and mid >fifties when my dad was a navigator/bombadier in the B47. Our last duty in >England was at RAF Driffield in Yorkshire, a Thor missle base. >One of my dads very good friends was killed in a B47 accident ( I think in >fifty-three, maybe fifty-four). Two crew escaped, but the pilot stayed >with >the plane it order to avoid hitting a passenger train. Do you have any >clue >from your end how I could research this accident? I was knee high to a >grasshopper at the time, but I remember how terribly this loss affected my >parents and I. It is a bit off the subject of the web ring, so if you have >anything that might point me in the right direction you can let me know >outside the ring at: palidin@worldnet.att.net . I would like to add your >e-mail address to my 303rd folder if I have your permission. Thankyou, and >best. Lloyd >----- Original Message ----- >From: Brian McGuire >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:32 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > Kevin, et al - > > I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and >others > > to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as >well. >I > > guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I >had > > quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along >with > > the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now >have >an > > interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF >I > > took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came >back > > with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one >of > > only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > > other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to >develop > > an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the >world > > I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days >of > > WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly >remember > > the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > > cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to >dogfight > > for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > > from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they >were > > out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > > that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by >the > > treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. >They > > belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian >citizens, > > both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > > British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > experience in 1942-45. > > > > By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a >book > > on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but >making > > the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert >Postma, > > was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > airborn. > > > > Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > Brian > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kevin Pearson > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I >got > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > > books > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air >war >in > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, >and > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember >reading > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > started > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I >could > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would >never > > talk > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even >more. >I > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the >8th > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > > went > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! >Flying > > on > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man >become >a > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > > have > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became >secretary > > of > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day >still > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > bomber > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and >was > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball >bearing > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, >the > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites >at > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th >BS > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem >with > > two > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within >the > > next > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of >the > > > Bulge. > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? >I > > used > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in >the > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 17:17:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:17:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF In-Reply-To: <000901c0a97c$4f785960$8eb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > This should be an easy one even for some of the youngsters. (understand, I > am rebuilding my files and am not intentionally being redundant). > I know the basics, I think. 4Sq. to a group, how many groups in a wing, how > many wings in a division, and how many divisions in an Air Force? How were > the associated HQ.s set up? What was the highest ranked officer permitted > to fly operations routinely? Thanks. At least for the first parts of the question, one of the pages at my web site is: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bombgps.html This lists the various divisions/wings/groups/squadrons in the 8thAF at least at one point in time. This mainly came from information in the Freeman Mighty Eighth book, so I assume that it is fairly accurate. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 17:52:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:52:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF References: <000901c0a97c$4f785960$8eb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AAA69C0.587F4048@attglobal.net> LJG ... Believe it is THREE squadrons to an airborne Group and FOUR squadrons to a Group at a Base. THREE Groups to an airborne Wing (but do not know how many Groups to a Wing on the ground. An Airborner Division is made up of one or more airborne Wings. Do not know how many ground Wings make up a Division. Cheers! BILL HELLER Lloyd J Grant wrote: > This should be an easy one even for some of the youngsters. (understand, I > am rebuilding my files and am not intentionally being redundant). > I know the basics, I think. 4Sq. to a group, how many groups in a wing, how > many wings in a division, and how many divisions in an Air Force? How were > the associated HQ.s set up? What was the highest ranked officer permitted > to fly operations routinely? Thanks. > qoute for the day > "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am > doing." > > Werner Von Braun > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 17:56:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:56:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: For those who were at Molesworth when there was opposition from the German fighters, I was curious about whether the fighters made a point of getting up above the bombers altitude wise, prior to attacking? If so, since the B-17s flew higher than the B-24s and assuming that the fighters would try to get above both types of planes, would there be any tendency of the fighters to pick on the higher flying B-17s rather than going even lower to get down to where the B-24s were? Just collecting data to use in B-17 vs B-24 arguments, and am trying to explain some differences in the reported damage rates. (I don't expect any arguments in this group.) ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:02:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:02:02 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF Bolo Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I told her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and she asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is Jewish said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is WANTING in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should hang their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to your message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... and replies to your message. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and what a > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day for > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to the > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, anticipating a > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was absolutely > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 Wright > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was used > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > feeling over the base that day. > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people speak > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and am > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > enlighten them! > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father of > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > Samarialaan 45 > 5625 RB Eindoven > The Netherlands > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and his > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of the > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > you. > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > Jupiter 6 > 5527 CL Hapert > The Netherlands > > Best of luck! > Kevin > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > >Kevin, et al - > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have > >an > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > >citizens, > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > >experience in 1942-45. > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > >airborn. > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > >Brian > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Kevin Pearson > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I > >got > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > >books > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war > >in > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, > >and > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > >reading > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > >started > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > >could > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > >talk > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. > >I > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > >went > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > >Flying > >on > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become > >a > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > >have > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > >secretary > >of > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > >still > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > >bomber > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites > >at > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th > >BS > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with > >two > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the > >next > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > > Bulge. > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I > >used > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:05:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:05:29 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! References: <000f01c0a969$c78646a0$1b3f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <3AAA6CE8.E51B136B@attglobal.net> --------------74391699B113BEF999BE0C0C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have heard there is no such thing as a Bill 602P ... but am puzzled why we cannot prove or disprove this rumour. Cheers! BILL HELLER Bill Owen wrote: > I don't know whether there is anything to this or not, but thought it > was worth passing along. Bill Owen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ehearne > To: Bill OwenSent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PMSubject: Fw: BIG > BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: marshallandmayramsey > To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;;Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 > PMSubject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK > OUT! > ----- Original Message -----From: WILLBARR@aol.comTo: > undisclosed-recipients: ;Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 > PMSubject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK > OUT! Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P proposes to > charge > 5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No more free E-mail! We knew > this was coming!! > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent > charge > on every delivered E-mail. Please read the following carefully if you > > intend to stay online and continue using E-mail. > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government > of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation > that will affect our use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation, > > the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of > "alternative postage fees". > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent > surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service > Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the > > ISP. > > Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent > this legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming > > lost revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly > $230,000,000. in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent > ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." Since the average > person > received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the > typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day - or over > $180 > per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that > this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a > service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is > dem= > ocracy and non-interference. You are already paying an exorbitant > price = > for snail mail because of bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently > tak= > es up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If > th= > e US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the > en= > d of the "free" Internet in the United States. > > Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a > "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond > > the government's proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the > major > newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the > Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful > concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do not sit > by and watch your freedom erode away! > > Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends > and relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" > to= > Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and could very > w= > ell be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want. > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Find more posts and pictures in your Groups. > > > __________________________________________________ > > Not an AOL member? Try AOL free! > > > > Find out why 21 Million people have chosen AOL as > > their ISP! > > * Create your own Groups! > > * Access mail from the Web > > * See who's online with AOL Buddy List! > > > > To try AOL free, please click here > > __________________________________________________ > > > --------------74391699B113BEF999BE0C0C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have heard there is no such thing as a Bill 602P ... but am puzzled why we cannot prove or disprove this rumour.

Cheers!

BILL HELLER

Bill Owen wrote:

I don't know whether there is anything to this or not, but thought it was worth passing along. Bill Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: ehearne
To: Bill OwenSent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:20 PMSubject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT!

----- Original Message -----
From: marshallandmayramsey
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;;Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 3:44 PMSubject: Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT!
----- Original Message -----From: WILLBARR@aol.comTo: undisclosed-recipients: ;Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:47 PMSubject: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P proposes to charge
5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No more free E-mail! We knew
this was coming!!
Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge
on every delivered E-mail. Please read the following carefully if you
intend to stay online and continue using E-mail.
The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government
of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation
that will affect our use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation,
the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of
"alternative postage fees".
Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent
surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service
Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the
ISP.
Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent
this legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming
lost revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly
$230,000,000. in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent
ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." Since the average person
received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the
typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day - or over $180
per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that
this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a
service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is dem=
ocracy and non-interference. You are already paying an exorbitant price =
for snail mail because of bureaucratic ! inefficiency. It currently tak=
es up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If th=
e US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the en=
d of the "free" Internet in the United States.
Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
"$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond
the government's proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major
newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the
Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful
concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do not sit
by and watch your freedom erode away!
Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends
and relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to=
Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and could very w=
ell be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.
__________________________________________________



Find more posts and pictures in your Groups.
__________________________________________________

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    * Create your own Groups! 

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__________________________________________________

--------------74391699B113BEF999BE0C0C-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:27:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:27:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF References: Message-ID: <000b01c0a98f$d4b7b2c0$76914d0c@o3n4f8> I appreciate it Bill, thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF > > > > This should be an easy one even for some of the youngsters. (understand, I > > am rebuilding my files and am not intentionally being redundant). > > I know the basics, I think. 4Sq. to a group, how many groups in a wing, how > > many wings in a division, and how many divisions in an Air Force? How were > > the associated HQ.s set up? What was the highest ranked officer permitted > > to fly operations routinely? Thanks. > > At least for the first parts of the question, one of the pages at my > web site is: > > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bombgps.html > > This lists the various divisions/wings/groups/squadrons in the > 8thAF at least at one point in time. This mainly came from > information in the Freeman Mighty Eighth book, so I assume that it > is fairly accurate. > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:29:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:29:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF References: <000901c0a97c$4f785960$8eb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AAA69C0.587F4048@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001101c0a990$0509ffa0$76914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you too, Mr. Heller. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Organization of the USAAF > LJG ... > > Believe it is THREE squadrons to an airborne Group and FOUR squadrons to a > Group at a Base. THREE Groups to an airborne Wing (but do not know how many > Groups to a Wing on the ground. An Airborner Division is made up of one or > more airborne Wings. Do not know how many ground Wings make up a Division. > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > This should be an easy one even for some of the youngsters. (understand, I > > am rebuilding my files and am not intentionally being redundant). > > I know the basics, I think. 4Sq. to a group, how many groups in a wing, how > > many wings in a division, and how many divisions in an Air Force? How were > > the associated HQ.s set up? What was the highest ranked officer permitted > > to fly operations routinely? Thanks. > > qoute for the day > > "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am > > doing." > > > > Werner Von Braun > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:39:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:39:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001901c0a991$80b3e840$76914d0c@o3n4f8> The lack is appalling. A lot of younger people don't even know what Viet Nam was about. May be this is what you guys fought to acheive in a sense, but it is regrettable. Luckily, there are a few of us "younger guys" who will never forget and will do everything possible to keep the memories alive. Hats off to Kevin Pearson, Bill Jones, and Brian Mcquire,, and all the others. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Kevin Pearson ... > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF Bolo > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I told > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and she > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is Jewish > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is WANTING > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should hang > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to your > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... and > replies to your message. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and what a > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day for > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to the > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, anticipating a > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was absolutely > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 Wright > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was used > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people speak > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and am > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > > enlighten them! > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father of > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > Samarialaan 45 > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > The Netherlands > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and his > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of the > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > > you. > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > Jupiter 6 > > 5527 CL Hapert > > The Netherlands > > > > Best of luck! > > Kevin > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have > > >an > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > >citizens, > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > >airborn. > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > >Brian > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I > > >got > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > > >books > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war > > >in > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, > > >and > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > >reading > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > >started > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > > >could > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > > >talk > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. > > >I > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > > >went > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > >Flying > > >on > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become > > >a > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > > >have > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > >secretary > > >of > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > > >still > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > >bomber > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites > > >at > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th > > >BS > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with > > >two > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the > > >next > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I > > >used > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 18:59:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:59:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin suggestions.... Message-ID: <3AAA1735.6072.2EAC78@localhost> Hi Gang, In order to help shorten the digest-version of 303rd-Talk, please help me with this if you can: 1- send your messages in plain text, rather than html. In Outlook, change these settings: TOOLS / OPTIONS / SEND uncheck the 6th box down that says "Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent" and change the Mail Sending Format to "plain text" Some have already done this and I appreciate it. Mail programs other than Outlook will have similar settings. 2- when you reply to a message, please only quote the pertinent part, rather than the entire message. That will make it easier to read and a much shorter message. No need to reply to this or respond at all. It's just a friendly suggestion. Please help me out if you can. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 19:16:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:16:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <004501c0a996$b2016bc0$1ed04dd1@computer> I am Ed Lamme, bombardier 427Sq. I was at Molesworth from early March l943 to September 43. We had no escort past 75-90 miles into enemy territory mainly from Spits & P38's. Flak was not too large a problem escept around defended targets of which the Germans were very wll aware. Among my missions were 2 to Hamburg, Bermen, Huls, Wilhemshaven, Lorient and St. Nazaire, Schweinfurt. Until our squadron armament section came up with jerrybuilt twin 50s in the nose over the bombsight which was secured by a bungee cord to allow access to bombsight during bomb run most of the fighter attacks were from 1200 level. After insallation of some twin 50s the Luftwaffe tactics changed to attacks from l0-11 oclock or 1-2 oclock just above level in order to prevent top turret from firing at them. If a 17 was damaged, the fighters would concentrate on the damaged plane from all directions. We were never in the same target areas as the B-24 groups. If we were attacking a northern German target, they were usually attacking away from our flight path, in order to split the Luftwaffe forces as much as possible (wasn't much splitting, anyway). Our crew all finished their tour and we never saw a P5l while I was there. I believe they began arriving in greater numbers about Sept 43 although there were a few P47's around. Hope this helps your research. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > For those who were at Molesworth when there was opposition > from the German fighters, I was curious about whether the fighters > made a point of getting up above the bombers altitude wise, prior to > attacking? If so, since the B-17s flew higher than the B-24s and > assuming that the fighters would try to get above both types of > planes, would there be any tendency of the fighters to pick on the > higher flying B-17s rather than going even lower to get down to > where the B-24s were? > Just collecting data to use in B-17 vs B-24 arguments, and am > trying to explain some differences in the reported damage rates. (I > don't expect any arguments in this group.) > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 19:52:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:52:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <002e01c0a99b$a74adc20$26f833cf@richards> Bill: We used to pray for B24s to go to the same target we were going to. The B24 was an easy aircraft to shoot down ,because it couldn't stay in formation above 20,000 feet, it also had a fuel manifold in the wing which was not protected by self sealing or armor one hit and the wing burned off.. Enough said. Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > For those who were at Molesworth when there was opposition > from the German fighters, I was curious about whether the fighters > made a point of getting up above the bombers altitude wise, prior to > attacking? If so, since the B-17s flew higher than the B-24s and > assuming that the fighters would try to get above both types of > planes, would there be any tendency of the fighters to pick on the > higher flying B-17s rather than going even lower to get down to > where the B-24s were? > Just collecting data to use in B-17 vs B-24 arguments, and am > trying to explain some differences in the reported damage rates. (I > don't expect any arguments in this group.) > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 20:32:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:32:30 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AAA8F5E.C308D96E@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... There were very few missions on which there was no fighter opposition SOMEHWERE. Yes, the German fighters rallied above our formations, mostly at 11 or 1 o'clock until they made their decision to begin an attack. In my discussion with them, with whom I worked for ten years after the war, they mentioned that it was this way in which they decided WHICH Group or Wing to hit and if the Group or Wing was in tight formation, they eschewed THAT Group or Wing for one which was "straggling" as it were. Anent the B24s, most of us were happy when we learned B24s would be in or near OUR bomber positions for the German fighters DID pick on those first it seemed. This too was confirmed by my friends of the WW#2 luftwaffe ... of which I have many today. Several even mentioned that the B24 presented a much easier target for them. Cheers! BILL HELLER Bill Jones wrote: > For those who were at Molesworth when there was opposition > from the German fighters, I was curious about whether the fighters > made a point of getting up above the bombers altitude wise, prior to > attacking? If so, since the B-17s flew higher than the B-24s and > assuming that the fighters would try to get above both types of > planes, would there be any tendency of the fighters to pick on the > higher flying B-17s rather than going even lower to get down to > where the B-24s were? > Just collecting data to use in B-17 vs B-24 arguments, and am > trying to explain some differences in the reported damage rates. (I > don't expect any arguments in this group.) > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 21:08:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:08:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. In-Reply-To: <002e01c0a99b$a74adc20$26f833cf@richards> Message-ID: > Bill: > We used to pray for B24s to go to the same target we were going to. The B24 > was an easy aircraft to shoot down ,because it couldn't stay in formation > above 20,000 feet, it also had a fuel manifold in the wing which was not > protected by self sealing or armor one hit and the wing burned off.. > Enough said. Thanks, yes. I've read about several reasons why the B-24 was more vulnerable to damage, however I started collecting numbers when someone quoted some loss rate data which showed that the B-24 might have had a lower loss rate than the B-17, which seemed to be true if you consider all the planes that were dispatched to the targets. However, if you only counted missions where both planes went to the same target, and only counted planes that actually reached the target, the B-17 seems to have a better loss rate. I'm not sure what this implies, but either way, there wasn't very much difference in the "loss" rate. However the statistic that confused me was that no matter how you look at the data, a smaller percentage of B-24s seemed to be damaged than B-17s, by a considerable margin. Ie planes that made it back, but were reported as being damaged. I'm not sure if this was because of differences in how different groups reported planes damaged, or if there was a real reason why a higher percentage of B-17s would be damaged. You would think that being bigger, that the B-24 would offer a bigger cross section, and be more likely to be hit, by either fighters or flak. Only things I could think of was that perhaps the fighters were going after the B- 17s rather than the B-24s, but this didn't seem to make sense, for reasons like you say above. Or perhaps since there were more B- 17s, the AA batteries were setting the altitude for the flak at higher altitudes where it wasn't hitting the B-24s. Again, it's probably a waste of my time to try to compare damage rates for planes that weren't in the same environment even when they were flying to the same target, but it is interesting. Thanks for the comments. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 21:08:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:08:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. In-Reply-To: <004501c0a996$b2016bc0$1ed04dd1@computer> Message-ID: > I am Ed Lamme, bombardier 427Sq. I was at Molesworth from early March l943 > to September 43. ............ >....... > most of the fighter attacks were from 1200 level. After insallation of > some twin 50s the Luftwaffe tactics changed to attacks from l0-11 oclock or > 1-2 oclock just above level in order to prevent top turret from firing at > them. Thanks. That's interesting. I think I understand. Where would the fighters be before they actually attacked though? I was guessing that they would be way above you, waiting for you, trying to swoop in and catch you by surprise. > We were never in the same target areas as the > B-24 groups. If we were attacking a northern German target, they were > usually attacking away from our flight path, in order to split the Luftwaffe > forces as much as possible (wasn't much splitting, anyway). OK, re not flying with the B-24s. I've found several missions where both planes went to the same target, but I started looking at missions in early 1944,working backward, and haven't got back to the 1943 era yet. It's probably a waste of time though, because even though they went to the same target, the conditions are never the same for different groups, so it's probably not fair to compare data. > Hope this helps your research. Ed Yes, thanks. Any description of what it was like is appreciated. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 21:23:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:23:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. In-Reply-To: <3AAA8F5E.C308D96E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > ...... Yes, the German fighters rallied above our formations, mostly > at 11 or 1 o'clock until they made their decision to begin an attack. In > my discussion with them, with whom I worked for ten years after the war, > they mentioned that it was this way in which they decided WHICH Group or > Wing to hit ..... > .... > ...... Several even mentioned that > the B24 presented a much easier target for them. Thanks. This is what I had assumed would have been the case. I guess another case where statistics were overwhelmed by the "luck" of who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 22:03:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:03:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin suggestions.... References: <3AAA1735.6072.2EAC78@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c0a9ad$fdf1ea20$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, I know you said there is no necessity to reply, but I would appreciate your advice on the 2nd part of your message. ( I have double checked my settings and am pretty sure that I am in compliance with part 1). I am still recieving double and triple messages when I get a reply. Is it better to start a "new message" when replying, or to just use the "reply" button. The reason I ask is that when my computer crashed, I lost all my saved e-mails and e-mail addresses. You guys that are old hands with computer ops can be a big help to some of us green-peas. Your help and suggestions are always a welcome part of the learning curve. ( jeez, I hope I'm not the only green-pea aboard !!!) Best, Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:59 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin suggestions.... > Hi Gang, > In order to help shorten the digest-version of 303rd-Talk, please > help me with this if you can: > 1- send your messages in plain text, rather than html. In Outlook, > change these settings: TOOLS / OPTIONS / SEND uncheck the > 6th box down that says "Reply to messages using the format in > which they were sent" and change the Mail Sending Format to > "plain text" Some have already done this and I appreciate it. Mail > programs other than Outlook will have similar settings. > > 2- when you reply to a message, please only quote the pertinent > part, rather than the entire message. That will make it easier to > read and a much shorter message. > > No need to reply to this or respond at all. It's just a friendly > suggestion. Please help me out if you can. > > Thanks! > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 22:22:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:22:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions Message-ID: <001901c0a9b0$9ae96860$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> I thought I had a good handle on this, but I am now in doubt. Understanding that clock positions are related to to the dial of a clock, how are they determined in relation to direction of flight? Are they calculated on the vertical , or horizontal plane? Where , I guess I am asking, was the frame of reference determined from. I am embarrassed to ask, but what the heck. I'd rather confess to ignorance than remain ignorant. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 22:34:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:34:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin suggestions.... In-Reply-To: <000901c0a9ad$fdf1ea20$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AAA4985.25491.F33F5D@localhost> Lloyd, Use the "Reply" button to reply to the messages. When your edit window is open and you are typing your reply, you have the ability to delete unnecssary text before you hit the send button. (note what I quoted of your message below. I deleted all the rest.) In TOOLS / OPTIONS / SEND you could change the setting to not include the message you are replying to in your message, but it is better to include some of it so others know what you are talking about. If I read a message that said only, "I agree with every what you said." I probably wouldn't remember what the topic was. All your settings are correct. If you still have questions, lets move this to private email and not post it to the list. Thanks, > Gary, I know you said there is no necessity to reply, but I would appreciate > your advice on the 2nd part of your message. ( I have double checked my - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 10 22:48:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:48:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: BIG BROTHER IS TRYING TO GET IN THE ACT AGAIN---LOOK OUT! Message-ID: It's an old internet scam; ignore it. Larry Farrell From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 06:43:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:43:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions References: <001901c0a9b0$9ae96860$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AAB1E86.14A7E60E@attglobal.net> LJG ... Do not know where the frame of reference came from, but, it is considered a FLAT clock on the same plane as the aircraft. ie., TWELVE o'clock is straight ahead, ergo TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH is ahead of the aircraft but higher up. SIX o'clock is coming at the TAIL, which is in the six o'clock position. OR, to look at it another way, the right wing tip is at 3 o'clocok, the left wing tip is at 9 o'clock, the tail is at 6 o'clock, and, of course, the nose is 12 o'clock. In airline practice, and with Air Traffic Controllers we use the "clock" system always, ie., "ATC may say we have a target at 2 o'clcock range 3 miles altitude unknown ... " etc., etc. NOWTHEN, when hearing this from ATC, the pilot flying the airliner, IF he is alert will automatically consider his winds aloft and when ATC says target at 2 o'clock, and the pilot KNOWS he is correcting left INTO a strong, perhaps even a jet stream wind he must then ALLOW for the target MAYBE at 2 o'clcock could damn well be almost on his nose! It is like when flying an ILS with a crosswind and the runway becomes in sight and your copilot says runway "a little to the rigbht" ... if you were ON the Glide Path and Glide Slope at this point, DO NOT CHANGE A THING for the runway is STILL right ahead! But, none of this is germane to a fighter being at six, nine, or twelve o'clock, for THAT is where your gunner SEES him. Cheers! BILL HELLER Cheers! BILL HELLER Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I thought I had a good handle on this, but I am now in doubt. Understanding > that clock positions are related to to the dial of a clock, how are they > determined in relation to direction of flight? Are they calculated on the > vertical , or horizontal plane? Where , I guess I am asking, was the frame > of reference determined from. I am embarrassed to ask, but what the heck. > I'd rather confess to ignorance than remain ignorant. Lloyd. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 07:17:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:17:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: > We used to pray for B24s to go to the same target we were going to. The B24 >was an easy aircraft to shoot down ,because it couldn't stay in formation >above 20,000 feet, it also had a fuel manifold in the wing which was not >protected by self sealing or armor one hit and the wing burned off.. >Enough said. > Spider Smith A B24 driver friend tells me with laughter,they were a bit perturbed though envious that the B17s could fly higher than their 24s. And while in flight he says the B24 always reeked of fuel. Did the B17 have any similar fuel odor problems? (though I suppose one wouldn't notice any outside smells while on oxygen) regards, One of the "young guys" ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 07:45:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:45:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions References: <001901c0a9b0$9ae96860$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AAB1E86.14A7E60E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000e01c0a9ff$3c190080$6b184e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, I was correct in my perception of the O:Clock. Reading Bill Jones' question about the fighter attacks threw me ( not a difficult chore). " We have a bandit at 12:00 medium !" Thanks for straightening me out, Wild Bill. Bet you're glad I wasn't your gunner today. If its any consolation, I never interfere with the pilot on an ILS approach. I always keep my eyes tightly closed when I am praying. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions > LJG ... > > Do not know where the frame of reference came from, but, it is considered a > FLAT clock on the same plane as the aircraft. ie., TWELVE o'clock is straight > ahead, ergo TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH is ahead of the aircraft but higher up. SIX > o'clock is coming at the TAIL, which is in the six o'clock position. OR, to > look at it another way, the right wing tip is at 3 o'clocok, the left wing tip > is at 9 o'clock, the tail is at 6 o'clock, and, of course, the nose is 12 > o'clock. > > In airline practice, and with Air Traffic Controllers we use the "clock" system > always, ie., "ATC may say we have a target at 2 o'clcock range 3 miles > altitude unknown ... " etc., etc. NOWTHEN, when hearing this from ATC, the > pilot flying the airliner, IF he is alert will automatically consider his winds > aloft and when ATC says target at 2 o'clock, and the pilot KNOWS he is > correcting left INTO a strong, perhaps even a jet stream wind he must then > ALLOW for the target MAYBE at 2 o'clcock could damn well be almost on his > nose! It is like when flying an ILS with a crosswind and the runway becomes in > sight and your copilot says runway "a little to the rigbht" ... if you were > ON the Glide Path and Glide Slope at this point, DO NOT CHANGE A THING for the > runway is STILL right ahead! But, none of this is germane to a fighter being > at six, nine, or twelve o'clock, for THAT is where your gunner SEES him. > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I thought I had a good handle on this, but I am now in doubt. Understanding > > that clock positions are related to to the dial of a clock, how are they > > determined in relation to direction of flight? Are they calculated on the > > vertical , or horizontal plane? Where , I guess I am asking, was the frame > > of reference determined from. I am embarrassed to ask, but what the heck. > > I'd rather confess to ignorance than remain ignorant. Lloyd. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 08:27:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:27:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AAB36E3.52EF3B61@attglobal.net> Rich Young ... You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now and then just to SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it was always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s which were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of fuel fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of those unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The worst one I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful of flying through the debris. The B24, according to my friends who flew it, stated correctly that it ALWAYS smelled of fuel. On the ground OR in the the air while no masks were in place. We won, remember. Cheers! BILL HELLER Rich Young wrote: > > We used to pray for B24s to go to the same target we were going to. The B24 > >was an easy aircraft to shoot down ,because it couldn't stay in formation > >above 20,000 feet, it also had a fuel manifold in the wing which was not > >protected by self sealing or armor one hit and the wing burned off.. > >Enough said. > > Spider Smith > > A B24 driver friend tells me with laughter,they were a bit perturbed though > envious that the B17s could fly higher than their 24s. And while in flight > he says the B24 always reeked of fuel. Did the B17 have any similar fuel > odor problems? (though I suppose one wouldn't notice any outside smells > while on oxygen) > > regards, > One of the "young guys" > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 09:07:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:07:06 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <00c501c0aa14$a4f71d20$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Kevin - Thank you!! I will be using this info this summer. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and what a > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day for > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to the > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, anticipating a > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was absolutely > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 Wright > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was used > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > feeling over the base that day. > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people speak > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and am > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > enlighten them! > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father of > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > Samarialaan 45 > 5625 RB Eindoven > The Netherlands > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and his > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of the > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > you. > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > Jupiter 6 > 5527 CL Hapert > The Netherlands > > Best of luck! > Kevin > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > >Kevin, et al - > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have > >an > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > >citizens, > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > >experience in 1942-45. > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > >airborn. > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > >Brian > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Kevin Pearson > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I > >got > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > >books > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war > >in > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, > >and > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > >reading > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > >started > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > >could > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > >talk > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. > >I > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > >went > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > >Flying > >on > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become > >a > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > >have > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > >secretary > >of > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > >still > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > >bomber > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites > >at > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th > >BS > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with > >two > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the > >next > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > > Bulge. > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I > >used > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 09:50:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:50:38 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00c701c0aa14$b190d260$6d0110ac@Betac.com> A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran this story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one page on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a few generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that cost 50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining moments for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. Brian M ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Kevin Pearson ... > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF Bolo > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I told > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and she > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is Jewish > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is WANTING > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should hang > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to your > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... and > replies to your message. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and what a > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day for > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to the > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, anticipating a > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was absolutely > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 Wright > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was used > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people speak > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and am > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > > enlighten them! > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father of > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > Samarialaan 45 > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > The Netherlands > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and his > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of the > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > > you. > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > Jupiter 6 > > 5527 CL Hapert > > The Netherlands > > > > Best of luck! > > Kevin > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and others > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as well. I > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I had > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along with > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now have > > >an > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF I > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came back > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one of > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to develop > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the world > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days of > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly remember > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to dogfight > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they were > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by the > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. They > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > >citizens, > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a book > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but making > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert Postma, > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > >airborn. > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > >Brian > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I > > >got > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > > >books > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air war > > >in > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, > > >and > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > >reading > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > >started > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > > >could > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > > >talk > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even more. > > >I > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the 8th > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > > >went > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > >Flying > > >on > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man become > > >a > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > > >have > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > >secretary > > >of > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > > >still > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > >bomber > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and was > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball bearing > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites > > >at > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th > > >BS > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem with > > >two > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within the > > >next > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of the > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? I > > >used > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in the > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 09:35:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:35:56 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <00c601c0aa14$a927ce80$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Kevin - Alconbury flight ops ceased about 5 years ago, and the last op unit, the 352nd SOG (Special Ops Group) moved to Mildenhall. The AF population decreased from seveal thousand to a few hundred. The AF badly wanted to close the base in toto, but could not because they are responsible for supporting joint units in England and had to keep the admin part of the base open to support the JAC at Molesworth. There is not much at Molesworth, as you know. Alconbury provides the BX, commissary, club, family housing, theater/library/admin support, and school to support Molesworth operations. After flight ops ceased, the ops part of the base was separated from the admin side by a new fence, and ADL manages the old ops side of the base. Potential civilian use of the former flight area is a huge political controversy in England, with many activist groups trying to prevent reinstitution of flight ops. Huntingdon is a very congested area traffic-wise, and the additonal freight traffic could make it much worse. ADL is trying to come up with a plan to minimize the negative impact and still use the awesome facilities existing at Alconbury, and I hope (and believe they will) succeed. I met with Ian Hudson (he, not she) a few years ago, and he showed me the blueprints and went over his plans to establish a museum complex at Alconbury. He is truely committed to this, to the extent of spending megabucks to move the old WWII tower to the new complex, which will be awesom. He has a plan to finance it, and he has talked with all of the pertinent 8AF contacts in England for support. I helped by smoothing a lot of ruffled feathers caused when the previous tenants of Alconbury reneged on earlier agreements with the aforementioned contacts and did not return many borrowed items when they bugged out in 95. Many people over the years had contributed material to be displayed in the old control tower. I had contacted the Historian and others to ensure none of the material would be lost when the AF closed down flight ops and the ops units left, but we all got screwed. A lot of stuff disappeared both at Molesworth and Alconbury when the AF left, and many of us (especially me as the keeper of the flame) were VERY pissed off, as you can imagine. But Ian gives us reason to hope. As I mentioned, I will almost certainly be out of here within a year, and I may offer some items to Ian. Thank you for forwarding Ian's response to you. Hope I can help in some way. I am active in FOTE (Friends of the Eighth) in England (I am hosting the next quarterly meeting at Alconbury on 24 March) and can seek any additional contacts you may need over here for you during your research. Cheers, mate. Brian You can also contact me outside of 303rd chat (bmcguire@acsdefense.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > One more thing. Alconbury has been deactivated or is already deactivated > and is being turned in to an industrial estate and lorry park. Ian S. > Hudson is the Project Director and her e-mail is ish@alconbury.co.uk. They > are planning to preserve the tower, but will move it to a new location. It > is a beautiful tower! Here is a list of questions I posed to Ian and her > response if anyone is interested: > > Kevin > > My replies are in square brackets [] > > > 28 January 2000 > > Ian S. Hudson, Project Director: > > I am writing a book about the former heavy bomber bases used by the Eighth > Air Force during the Second World War. My book is a "field guide" for those > wishing to visit the old stations. Recently you met a man named Ken Lux who > was stationed at Alconbury during the war. He was accompanied by Peter > Roberts from the East Anglian Aviation Society of which I am also a member. > I am hoping you could answer a few questions for me: > > 1. What is the status of the airfield? I have heard a private concern > is in > the process of turning the old station into an industrial estate and lorry > park. Is this true and is your company the one that has purchased the base? > [Alconbury Developments Ltd (ADL) is in control of most of the base. We are > in joint venture with the Mod and plan to turn the base into a multi-modal > freight village. 7,000,000 sq.ft. of warehouses with a direct link to the > East Coast Main Railway Line with the possibility of a freight only > airfield. I am project Director of ADL] > > 2. Do you have an accurate base map, showing the location of the > buildings? > [Yes - what scale would you like it ?] > > 3. Would you have a current aerial photograph of the base? > [Yes - plus 1945 & 1966 - but they are 3ft square, framed and on our > reception wall.] > > 4. Would any of the old buildings be for sale? I have been working > with a > Dutch museum interested in recreating and WWII heavy bomber base and they > are looking for a T-2 hangar, Nissen Huts, and Quonset Huts. > [The is potential for sale - but not our WWII control tower. > > 5. Who is/are the present owner(s) of the base? > [MoD] > > Any help you could provide me would be greatly appreciated. I am willing to > pay for any expense you may incur in helping me. > [Unless there is major expense involved, I do not want payment. I am much > more interested in any help you are able to give me. ADL is very interested > in commemorating the history of this base. We plan to move the WWII control > tower and establish a heritage centre. Perhaps you could give some thought > to potential in which we can help each other ?] > > > > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > 2514 W. Woodland > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > Phone: 001.816.232.4461 (Days) > 001.816.364.5576 (Nights) > Fax: 001.816.364.4873 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > splasher6@yahoo.com > kevinmpearson@hotmail.com > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:39:49 -0500 > > > >Brian, We were stationed in England three times during my fathers career. > > My mother probably influenced these assignments as much as possible, she > >was from Cambridge). The first two assignments were in the early and mid > >fifties when my dad was a navigator/bombadier in the B47. Our last duty in > >England was at RAF Driffield in Yorkshire, a Thor missle base. > >One of my dads very good friends was killed in a B47 accident ( I think in > >fifty-three, maybe fifty-four). Two crew escaped, but the pilot stayed > >with > >the plane it order to avoid hitting a passenger train. Do you have any > >clue > >from your end how I could research this accident? I was knee high to a > >grasshopper at the time, but I remember how terribly this loss affected my > >parents and I. It is a bit off the subject of the web ring, so if you have > >anything that might point me in the right direction you can let me know > >outside the ring at: palidin@worldnet.att.net . I would like to add your > >e-mail address to my 303rd folder if I have your permission. Thankyou, and > >best. Lloyd > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Brian McGuire > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:32 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > Kevin, et al - > > > I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > >others > > > to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > >well. > >I > > > guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > > anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I > >had > > > quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > > dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along > >with > > > the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > >have > >an > > > interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the USAF > >I > > > took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came > >back > > > with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one > >of > > > only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is the > > > other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > >develop > > > an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the > >world > > > I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days > >of > > > WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > >remember > > > the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from a > > > cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > >dogfight > > > for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of chaps > > > from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they > >were > > > out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning veteran > > > that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by > >the > > > treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. > >They > > > belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > >citizens, > > > both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that the > > > British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > > experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > > during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a > >book > > > on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > >making > > > the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > >Postma, > > > was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > > airborn. > > > > > > Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > Brian > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kevin Pearson > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) being > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how I > >got > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran across > > > books > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air > >war > >in > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby Gabreskie, > >and > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > >reading > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > > started > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > >could > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > >never > > > talk > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > >more. > >I > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the > >8th > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and I > > > went > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > >Flying > > > on > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > >become > >a > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things I > > > have > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > >secretary > > > of > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > >still > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > > bomber > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and > >was > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > >bearing > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, > >the > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch sites > >at > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the 91st/324th > >BS > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > >with > > > two > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within > >the > > > next > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of > >the > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? > >I > > > used > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in > >the > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 10:16:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:16:03 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions References: <001901c0a9b0$9ae96860$8d8f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3AAB1E86.14A7E60E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00c901c0aa14$bac4c760$6d0110ac@Betac.com> A very common term nowadays is "check six." Now you know what it means. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] " O;Clock" positions > LJG ... > > Do not know where the frame of reference came from, but, it is considered a > FLAT clock on the same plane as the aircraft. ie., TWELVE o'clock is straight > ahead, ergo TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH is ahead of the aircraft but higher up. SIX > o'clock is coming at the TAIL, which is in the six o'clock position. OR, to > look at it another way, the right wing tip is at 3 o'clocok, the left wing tip > is at 9 o'clock, the tail is at 6 o'clock, and, of course, the nose is 12 > o'clock. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 17:15:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:15:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] OT Newspaper story about WWII spy Message-ID: Slightly off topic, but..... For those interested in such things, there is an article in today's Boston Globe about a German who spied for the US during WWII. Apparently the US didn't trust the info, at least at first. Story is at: http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/secret_history/ The story isn't 8thAF related, but could have influenced some of the targets. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 18:56:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:56:58 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy checking in !! Message-ID: <005e01c0aa5d$0d022a20$e9a201d5@n0i6c5> Just wanted to let you know I am still about, 'lurking' usually rather than posting. Each day I read all your messages and each day I find I am learning bit more, for which I thank you all. As a late comer in the interest of the US 8th AF (well into my 50's and a female at that !), my knowledge is oh so limited, when I sit and read all the topics you all discuss. Some of the topics discussed are well above my head (usually the technicality's of the workings of the engines ect), but quite alot does register as things I have read or heard about, and I really find so much so interesting. This week I enjoyed the conversations with regards to how all the young un's first got interested in the 'Mighty Eighth'. My interest began on reading an article in one of our local newspapers. It told the story of a 50th Memorial Service that had been held in a local Church, in remembrance of a young American Pilot, who lost his life while test piloting a P-47 on the 9th Jan.1944. While reading the article which told about Lt. Jay F. Simpson , it told of Jay's home town of Gillett, Wisc. and how he had been an only child of his parents. This suddenly hit home to me, the fact that how lucky I was as the mother of three grown sons, that I had not had to face which must have been every mothers worse nightmare, of her sons having to go to war, and as so very many, never to have them return home. I am ashamed to say, it took the story of Lt. Jay F. Simpson to being the realities of war home to me. So as you see, my interest began not really remembering the sounds of the aircraft taking off and returning from missions, or anything like that, it was from just trying to imagine the feeling of so many, many Mothers the world over, who's sons where called to serve their Countries to fight for our freedom. Which in turn, has allowed me to never had to face those heartaches of having my three sons go to war. To all veterans of the war, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I truly believe, that when God put your generation on this earth, he threw away the mode, knowing there will never ever be a generation like as yours. God Bless, Moofy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 19:31:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:31:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> <00c701c0aa14$b190d260$6d0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AABD27C.A66298E6@attglobal.net> Brian McGuire ... As YOU know, most people can get more WW#2 history from the Mighty 8th AF Heritage Museum in Savannah than from ANY OTHER organization now known .... Some organizations have had DECADES to assist in this, and did not. Cheers! BILL HELLER Brian McGuire wrote: > A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a > discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two > paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran this > story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on > Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one page > on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are > simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really > like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. > Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a few > generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that cost > 50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and > political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining moments > for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > > Brian M > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > Bolo > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I > told > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and > she > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > Jewish > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is > WANTING > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should > hang > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to > your > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... > and > > replies to your message. > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and > what a > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day > for > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to > the > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > anticipating a > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > absolutely > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > Wright > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was > used > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people > speak > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and > am > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father > of > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > The Netherlands > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and > his > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of > the > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > > > you. > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > Jupiter 6 > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > others > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > well. I > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I > had > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along > with > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > have > > > >an > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > USAF I > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came > back > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one > of > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is > the > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > develop > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the > world > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days > of > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > remember > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from > a > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > dogfight > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > chaps > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they > were > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > veteran > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by > the > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. > They > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > >citizens, > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that > the > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a > book > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > making > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > Postma, > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > >Brian > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > being > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how > I > > > >got > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > across > > > >books > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air > war > > > >in > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > Gabreskie, > > > >and > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > > >reading > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > > >started > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > > > >could > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > never > > > >talk > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > more. > > > >I > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the > 8th > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and > I > > > >went > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > > >Flying > > > >on > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > become > > > >a > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things > I > > > >have > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > >secretary > > > >of > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > > > >still > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > > >bomber > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and > was > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > bearing > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, > the > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > sites > > > >at > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > 91st/324th > > > >BS > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > with > > > >two > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within > the > > > >next > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of > the > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? > I > > > >used > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in > the > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > Kevin > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 23:23:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:23:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> <00c701c0aa14$b190d260$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <3AABD27C.A66298E6@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0aa82$3bf8b7c0$11914d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Heller, I too am glad that there are museums, but (and this is only one mans' opinion) I would rather get my information first hand from men like yourself. You are the flesh and blood, and brains. You were the ones that were REALLY there. It is the information, stories, recollections, and experiences of true veterans that put a human face and heart into what will be remembered, and how it will be remembered. It is hard to put a mans' face into that reality; to understand that average men from all walks of life were impelled by circumstance and History to become extraordinary. Some may feel that their contribution was so insignificant as to not warrant mention. Anyone that feels this way I hope will understand this: no "one" man won this war. It was all of you. So, my friends, don't hold back, and please don't let a crumbling piece of rag paper become all that is left to define what you did and accomplished. We love you. ( the youngsters). ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Brian McGuire ... > > As YOU know, most people can get more WW#2 history from the Mighty 8th AF > Heritage Museum in Savannah than from ANY OTHER organization now known .... > Some organizations have had DECADES to assist in this, and did not. > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and > > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > > Bolo > > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I > > told > > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and > > she > > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > > Jewish > > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the > > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is > > WANTING > > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should > > hang > > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to > > your > > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... > > and > > > replies to your message. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and > > what a > > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day > > for > > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to > > the > > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > > anticipating a > > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > > absolutely > > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > > Wright > > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was > > used > > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people > > speak > > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and > > am > > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father > > of > > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > > The Netherlands > > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and > > his > > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of > > the > > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > > > > you. > > > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > > Jupiter 6 > > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > > others > > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > > well. I > > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I > > had > > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along > > with > > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > > have > > > > >an > > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > > USAF I > > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came > > back > > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one > > of > > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is > > the > > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > > develop > > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the > > world > > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days > > of > > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > > remember > > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from > > a > > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > > dogfight > > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > > chaps > > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they > > were > > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > > veteran > > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by > > the > > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. > > They > > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > > >citizens, > > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that > > the > > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a > > book > > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > > making > > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > > Postma, > > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > > >Brian > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > > being > > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how > > I > > > > >got > > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > > across > > > > >books > > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air > > war > > > > >in > > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > > Gabreskie, > > > > >and > > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > > > >reading > > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > > > >started > > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > > > > >could > > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > > never > > > > >talk > > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > > more. > > > > >I > > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the > > 8th > > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and > > I > > > > >went > > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > > > >Flying > > > > >on > > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > > become > > > > >a > > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things > > I > > > > >have > > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > > >secretary > > > > >of > > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > > > > >still > > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > > > >bomber > > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and > > was > > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > > bearing > > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, > > the > > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > > sites > > > > >at > > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > > 91st/324th > > > > >BS > > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > > with > > > > >two > > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within > > the > > > > >next > > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of > > the > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? > > I > > > > >used > > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in > > the > > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 23:24:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:24:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy checking in !! References: <005e01c0aa5d$0d022a20$e9a201d5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001401c0aa82$c2d9d4e0$11914d0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Moofy To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy checking in !! > Just wanted to let you know I am still about, 'lurking' usually rather than > posting. > Each day I read all your messages and each day I find I am learning bit > more, for which I thank you all. > > 9th Jan.1944. > me to never had to face those heartaches of having my three sons go to war. > > To all veterans of the war, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I > truly believe, that when God put your generation on this earth, he threw > away the mode, knowing there will never ever be a generation like as yours. > God Bless, > Moofy. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 11 23:29:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:29:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy checking in !! References: <005e01c0aa5d$0d022a20$e9a201d5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <001501c0aa83$2856f8c0$11914d0c@o3n4f8> Dear Moofy. I am damned glad to know that I am not the only one who is not an "expert". Thank goodness for the other youngsters who take this seriously. Thank god for the resources they have, the efforts they have invested, and the sincere generosity with which they shared with us. Hats off , and thumbs up! You guys know who you are. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Moofy To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy checking in !! > Just wanted to let you know I am still about, 'lurking' usually rather than > posting. > Each day I read all your messages and each day I find I am learning bit > more, for which I thank you all. > > As a late comer in the interest of the US 8th AF (well into my 50's and a > female at that !), my knowledge is oh so limited, when I sit and read all > the topics you all discuss. Some of the topics discussed are well above my > head (usually the technicality's of the workings of the engines ect), but > quite alot does register as things I have read or heard about, and I really > find so much so interesting. > > This week I enjoyed the conversations with regards to how all the young un's > first got interested in the 'Mighty Eighth'. My interest began on reading > an article in one of our local newspapers. It told the story of a 50th > Memorial Service that had been held in a local Church, in remembrance of a > young American Pilot, who lost his life while test piloting a P-47 on the > 9th Jan.1944. > While reading the article which told about Lt. Jay F. Simpson , it told of > Jay's home town of Gillett, Wisc. and how he had been an only child of his > parents. This suddenly hit home to me, the fact that how lucky I was as the > mother of three grown sons, that I had not had to face which must have been > every mothers worse nightmare, of her sons having to go to war, and as so > very many, never to have them return home. > I am ashamed to say, it took the story of Lt. Jay F. Simpson to being the > realities of war home to me. > > So as you see, my interest began not really remembering the sounds of the > aircraft taking off and returning from missions, or anything like that, it > was from just trying to imagine the > feeling of so many, many Mothers the world over, who's sons where called to > serve their Countries to fight for our freedom. Which in turn, has allowed > me to never had to face those heartaches of having my three sons go to war. > > To all veterans of the war, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I > truly believe, that when God put your generation on this earth, he threw > away the mode, knowing there will never ever be a generation like as yours. > God Bless, > Moofy. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 02:05:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:05:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Robert C. Bridges Message-ID: <000f01c0aa98$f0887700$4a3fafd8@e4rb0> I am trying to locate S/Sgt Robert C. Bridges or his family. Does anyone have any information on where he may be reached? Thanks From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 02:10:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:10:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Robert L. Taylor Message-ID: <001a01c0aa99$91d44620$4a3fafd8@e4rb0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0AA56.822758E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone help me contact Lt. Taylor? Thanks ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0AA56.822758E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone help me contact Lt. = Taylor?

Thanks

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0AA56.822758E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 00:15:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:15:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Robert C. Bridges In-Reply-To: <000f01c0aa98$f0887700$4a3fafd8@e4rb0> Message-ID: <3AABB2B4.20539.9B4445@localhost> > I am trying to locate S/Sgt Robert C. Bridges or his family. Does anyone > have any information on where he may be reached? > His son-in-law has signed our guest book. He is Merrill Loyd. email address: MerrillSusanLoyd@aol.com Good luck! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 00:23:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Robert L. Taylor In-Reply-To: <001a01c0aa99$91d44620$4a3fafd8@e4rb0> Message-ID: <3AABB4A9.10347.A2EBB7@localhost> > > Can anyone help me contact Lt. Taylor? Robert L. Taylor is a life member of the Association. 2703 Spokane Road San Antonio, TX 78222 (210) 648-3372 - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 01:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:07:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: --part1_d8.3794752.27dd7b4d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: How is Hal Susskind doing. I hope all is well. If he (HAl) would not mind could someone send me his snail address. I would like to send him a Get Well Card. Thank for you time. Bill Keane at WDK19@aol.Com. --part1_d8.3794752.27dd7b4d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
    How is Hal Susskind doing. I hope all is well. If he (HAl) would not
mind could someone send me his snail address.   I would like to send him a
Get Well Card.
Thank for you time. Bill Keane at WDK19@aol.Com.
                   --part1_d8.3794752.27dd7b4d_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 01:25:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:25:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3AABC334.16041.DBBCFC@localhost> I haven't heard anything since I reported last time. A hip replacement is a slow recovery at his age. A card is a great idea! Hal and Rae Susskind 2602 Deerfoot Trail Austin, TX 78704 > Hi To All: > How is Hal Susskind doing. I hope all is well. If he (HAl) would not > mind could someone send me his snail address. I would like to send him a > Get Well Card. > Thank for you time. Bill Keane at WDK19@aol.Com. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 03:02:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dale Jensen) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:02:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft maintenance Message-ID: <000901c0aaa0$e42b34e0$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> I am an associate member of the 8th AFHS and recently signed on to receive 303rd-talk email. I'm also a soon-to-be-retired USAF and IL ANG aircraft sheetmetal man (30 years next year). I would like to correspond with any squadron or Sub depot sheetmetal men. Any leads or information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Dale Jensen b17fan@home.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 03:14:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Paul w Hershner) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:14:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <20010311.221442.-3743941.2.ph303358@juno.com> I live in Columbus Ohio but spend winters in Florida like any northerner that don't like cold winters. I have attended the last 2 reunions and plan on the next one in Baltimore. My wife and I have fairly good health with a family of 4 children. I would invite others to visit my web site for a chat. Paul Hershner ph303358@juno.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 07:11:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:11:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree Message-ID: <002601c0aac3$b9d40b40$dab34d0c@o3n4f8> If the horizontal identifier is a circle, 12 oc being the nose(or forward element), 3oc the rt. radius, 6oc the rearward plane, and 9oc the lft radius, could not a vertical arc measured in degrees from 0 (12oc identifier) to 90 mid-plane then from 0(6oc identifier)to 90 midplane give a more precise accounting of an incoming attack? For example: " Bandit at 12oclock and 30". Attacking aircraft is at the front (12oc) at 30 degrees, etc. Then to keep life simple, inversely from the 6oc. 90 degrees would be the vertical demarkation for each call. Hence, a bandit attacking from the 2oc high might be called out, "bandit, 2oc at 45".etc etc etc. A bandit coming in from the 6oc low might be called out " Bandit, 6low at 30". I might have made one hell of a staff officer up in Whitehall. (note to self: how about surrender leaflets packed into the parachutes. Mention to Col. Korn Monday). grins, Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 07:27:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:27:55 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: Bill Heller - Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you were concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these tanks I presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced missions requiring their use as well? As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine a very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the many you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air war in complete reverence. Many thanks and regards, >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now and >then just to >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it was >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s which >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of fuel >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of those >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The worst one >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful of flying >through the debris. >BILL HELLER ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 07:29:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:29:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree Message-ID: <6a.c0ad6d8.27ddd4cb@aol.com> Lloyd: My opinion only. We all had good eyes. 3 o=E7lock High, Low or Level= =20 was all we needed. They were not hard to see if they were close enough to=20 fire at us. If you couldn't find them with that maybe you should be=20 transferred to the mail room or K. P.=20 Good Night,=20 Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 07:54:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AAC8099.8D558523@attglobal.net> Rich Young ... In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks which usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay tanks had CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not done, an empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the war went along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and I guess such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes wonder just how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. Cheers! BILL HELLER Rich Young wrote: > Bill Heller - > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you were > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these tanks I > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced missions > requiring their use as well? > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine a > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the many > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air war > in complete reverence. > > Many thanks and regards, > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now and > >then just to > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it was > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s which > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of fuel > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of those > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The worst one > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful of flying > >through the debris. > > >BILL HELLER > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 13:35:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:35:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. In-Reply-To: <3AAC8099.8D558523@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks which > usually were jettisoned after use. ....... >................. As the war went > along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. Could you explain what a Tokyo tank was then? I have one of those maintenence manual sets for the B-17, and it only mentions the bomb bay tanks... no mention of Tokyo, so I guess I always incorrectly assumed that the Tokyo tank was the same thing as the bomb bay tank. The manual I have was probably written prior to them being used. Where were Tokyo tanks located? > Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and I guess > such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes wonder just > how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. I guess this is why so many of the veterans never wanted to talk about their experiences. I think we are lucky to have this forum with those who are willing to talk about what happened. I am one of the "young guys" as per the recent discussion of interest. I was born in 43 on an air base in Ga, where my father was a flight instructor, before he went overseas to Molesworth. I was 2 years old by the time VE day came around, and all I remember of the war period was the celebration when VE day was announced. From that time on, my father never talked much about what happened over there. I am really grateful to be able to read the stories of those who are comfortable discussing the topic. I am always a little hesitant trying to pry info out of people, and I know some times the questions sound dumb, but I figure that if it gets people to talk, then it is worth it. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 15:16:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:16:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested Message-ID: Brian, et. al. - I do a lot of speaking to kids at all levels, from Eagle Scouts to fourth and fifth graders. I do two talks, one a statistical summary of what the Eighth accomplished, (if any of you want this, let me know) and one about my search for the lost planes of the 91st on 16.8.44. I ALWAYS take at least two veterans with me, usually Jim Hower, a Command Co-Pilot (Group Formation Officer); and Joe Jameson, a waist gunner; both from the 447th BG(H) at Rattlesden. The kids yawn, moan, and generally dose through my talk, but when Jim and Joe get up and start talking about assembly accidents and shooting down German fighters, all eyes come alive. And you can guess who the kids ask the most questions from. The kids are pretty interested in me digging up the remains of planes shot down from the war, even the girls. Here I stress that evey person is drawn to some small slice of history and I encourage the kids to follow their dreams and learn as much about that time in history that most interests them. But for you vets that have never done the speaking circuit - GET OUT THERE, if you are able. The kids love hearing from you. Contact your local school superintendents and volunteer to speak to classes. You will not be sorry. And the letters of thanks that Jim and Joe have received would bring tears to your eyes. Both keep theirs in a scrapbook. Cheers! Kevin >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:50:38 -0000 > >A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a >discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two >paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran >this >story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on >Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one page >on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are >simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really >like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. >Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a few >generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that >cost >50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and >political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining >moments >for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > >Brian M >----- Original Message ----- >From: William Heller >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education >(and > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF >Bolo > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" >I >told > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and >she > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is >Jewish > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And >the > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is >WANTING > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should >hang > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane >to >your > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... >and > > replies to your message. > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and >what a > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all >day >for > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up >to >the > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, >anticipating a > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was >absolutely > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 >Wright > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was >used > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about >the > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people >speak > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the >younf > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war >and >am > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But >I > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father >of > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > The Netherlands > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and >his > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of >the > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's >Hennie's > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it >to > > > you. > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > Jupiter 6 > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and >others > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as >well. I > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day >and > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). >I >had > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest >went > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along >with > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now >have > > > >an > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the >USAF I > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest >came >back > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is >one >of > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is >the > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to >develop > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the >world > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the >days >of > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly >remember > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge >from >a > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to >dogfight > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of >chaps > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they >were > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning >veteran > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed >by >the > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. >They > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > >citizens, > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that >the > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a >SHARED > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted >you > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do >a >book > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but >making > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert >Postma, > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) >British > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > >Brian > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) >being > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and >how >I > > > >got > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran >across > > > >books > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the >air >war > > > >in > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby >Gabreskie, > > > >and > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > > >reading > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. >I > > > >started > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. >(I > > > >could > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would >never > > > >talk > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I >would > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even >more. > > > >I > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined >the >8th > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he >and >I > > > >went > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > > >Flying > > > >on > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man >become > > > >a > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable >things >I > > > >have > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > >secretary > > > >of > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this >day > > > >still > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF >heavy > > > >bomber > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt >and >was > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball >bearing > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at >Remagen, >the > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch >sites > > > >at > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the >91st/324th > > > >BS > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated >with > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem >with > > > >two > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. >Within >the > > > >next > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle >of >the > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get >interested? >I > > > >used > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest >in >the > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > Kevin > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:02:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:02:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi all! I mentioned the talk I give on the statistical summary of the Eighth. I've taken out all of the graphics (otherwise it would have been to large to send by e-mail). I will be out of the country for two weeks starting tomorrow and thought if anyone wants it, I should send it anyway. Although all formatting has been lost, if you would spend a few minutes reworking this, you would have what I consider a first-class presentation. And Moofy and Lloyd - you do not have to be an expert to talk to school children about the war (well, maybe you would Moofy, English kids know so much more than American kids). If you really want to help perpetuate the legacy of the Mighty Eighth, you can! This information is sure to spark many questions and when I return from Mexico and Belize in two weeks, I will answer them all. Instead of tying up the 303rd ring, please send your questions to splasher6@yahoo.com. FYI - splasher 6 was the Buncher beacon at the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, Diss, Norfolk. Kevin PS - All statistical info was obtained from Ed Kueppers, the then Information Manager for the 8th AFHS. Introduction A. Who we are B. Purpose C. What we plan to do My Credentials I could legally fly an airplane before I could legally drive a car. Life Member – 8th AFHS Secretary – Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Editor – The Rally Point Recent Holiday United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Duration: 459 Days First Mission: 17 August 1942 Last Bombing Mission: 25 April 1945 Last Mission: 8 May 1945 (VE Day) (Food) Personnel KIA: Apx. 26,000 Personnel MIA: 41,442 (Note: Many of the MIA classified at the end of the war were ultimately classified KIA) United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Fuel Consumption: 867,564,117 Imp. Gal. Battle Damaged A/C Repaired: 59,644 Peak Strength: 40.5 BG(H) 15 FG 2 PR Total Personnel: 350,000 Effective Sorties: 523,574 The United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Tons On Target: Bombs Dropped: 696,450 Leaflets: 6,031.9 Gasoline/Food 19,743.4 Ammunition Expended: 99,256,341 Enemy A/C Claims: Destroyed 15,731 Probable 2,208 Damaged 7,665 Operational Losses: A/C MIA 6,319 Salvage 2,401 Missing 337 Typical Eighth Air Force Mission Heavy Bombers: 1,400 Fighters: 800 Gasoline: 3.5 million gallons Ammunition: 250,000 German A/C Destroyed: 25 U.S. Fighter Losses: 4 U.S. Bomber Losses: 5 Bombing Accuracy: 40% - 1,000 yards of MPI 75% - 2,000 yards of MPI A group of 100 Fortresses could fire one ton of lead per minute from their .50 cal. machine guns. Commanding Officers Brig. Gen. (Then Col.) Asa M. Duncan 26 Jan. 42 – 4 May 42 Gen. (Then Maj. Gen) Carl A. “Tooey” Spaatz 5 May 42 – 30 Nov. 42 Lt. Gen. Ira C. Eaker 1 Dec. 42 – 30 Nov. 42 Lt. Gen. James H. Doolittle 6 Jan. 44 – 9 May 45 Maj. Gen. W. E. Kepner 10 May 45 – VE Day Eighth is still active. Defining Strategic vs. Tactical Bombing Strategic - the use of air power to strike at the very foundation of an enemy's war effort - the production of war material, the economy as a whole, or the morale of the civilian population - rather than as a direct attack on the enemy's army or navy. Tactical - While tactical air power uses aircraft to aid the advance of forces on the ground or on the surface of the ocean, usually in cooperation with those forces, strategic air power usually works in relative independence of armies and navies, although its effects may complement those of a naval blockade - the operation of war most comparable to strategic bombing in its attack on the sources of enemy power. World War II Air Doctrine A. Shaped by World War I experience 1. 1914 – Germany bombs England for the first time. 2. May 1915 – Germans bomb behind Russian Lines. 3. 1917 – A/C used tactically to support ground troops. 4. Anti-submarine attacks. 5. Zeppelin attacks on England. 6. 1917 – Twin-engine Gotha attacks. 7. Purpose of attacks: A. Not to damage war effort B. Ties up resources in defense C. Lower morale Between the Wars Aircraft Production Army Air Force Target Industries AWPD-42 1. Submarine Pens 2. Transportation 3. Hydroelectric Plants 4. Luftwaffe/Aircraft Production – Big Week 5. Ball Bearings 6. Oil 7. V-Weapon Sites Little Known Facts About the Airwar G.H. H2X “Mickey” Diversion Attacks Shuttle Missions Aircraft Markings Infamous Missions 17 August 1942 – Rouen-Sottsville Marshalling Yards. 27 January 1943 - First Attack On Germany 1 August 1943 – First Ploesti Low Level Mission 17 August 1944 – Schweinfurt/Regensburg 22 June 1944 – Berlin/2nd Shuttle/Poltavia 6 June 1944 24 December 1944 – Bastogne Boeing B-17G Flying Fortress Consolidated B-24 Liberator The Fighters Lockheed P-38 Lightning Republic P-47 Thunderbolt The North American P-51 Mustang Combined Air Operations Cost 1,335,000 men 128,000 aircraft 160,000 men KIA or WIA 40,000 aircraft destroyed or damaged RAF BC 55,000 KIA or MIA 9,838 POW 8,403 WIA Results of the Strategic Bombing Campaign 72% of bombs on Germany fell after D-Day The campaign tied down tremendous resources 1.5 million guns 4.5 million troops and civilians Targets 1. Submarine Pens 2. Transportation 3. Hydroelectric Plants 4. Luftwaffe/Aircraft Production – Big Week 5. Ball Bearings 8. Oil 9. V-Weapon Sites AAF Mistakes Failure to get long range fighter escorts sooner AAF disinterested in the P-51 Failure to modify the P-38 for high altitude Air Materials Command – Drop tanks Poor target selection Synthetic Rubber – 4 plants Explosives – 70% made in 7 plants Nitrogen plants – 2 biggest accounted for ½ prod. Aluminum – 14 plants Ethyl fluids – 3 plants Eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead Inland waterways Vital data wasn’t missing – wrong interpretation Largest failure: Dam attacks Nazi Mistakes Technical Developments Failed to improve on ME 109 and 4 engine bombers. High octane av gas Resources wasted on V-Weapons development Equal race for jet production. All out effort would not have helped. Single biggest cause for the defeat of the Luftwaffe: Deterioation of quality of pilots. Death of a Ball Turret Gunner By: Randell R. Jarrel >From my mother’s sleep, I fell into the State, And hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I awoke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died, they washed me out of the turret with a hose. Randell R. Jarrel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:02:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:02:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th AF Statistical Summary/Presentation Message-ID: Hi all! I mentioned the talk I give on the statistical summary of the Eighth. I've taken out all of the graphics (otherwise it would have been to large to send by e-mail). I will be out of the country for two weeks starting tomorrow and thought if anyone wants it, I should send it anyway. Although all formatting has been lost, if you would spend a few minutes reworking this, you would have what I consider a first-class presentation. And Moofy and Lloyd - you do not have to be an expert to talk to school children about the war (well, maybe you would Moofy, English kids know so much more than American kids). If you really want to help perpetuate the legacy of the Mighty Eighth, you can! This information is sure to spark many questions and when I return from Mexico and Belize in two weeks, I will answer them all. Instead of tying up the 303rd ring, please send your questions to splasher6@yahoo.com. FYI - splasher 6 was the Buncher beacon at the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, Diss, Norfolk. Kevin PS - All statistical info was obtained from Ed Kueppers, the then Information Manager for the 8th AFHS. Introduction A. Who we are B. Purpose C. What we plan to do My Credentials I could legally fly an airplane before I could legally drive a car. Life Member – 8th AFHS Secretary – Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Editor – The Rally Point Recent Holiday United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Duration: 459 Days First Mission: 17 August 1942 Last Bombing Mission: 25 April 1945 Last Mission: 8 May 1945 (VE Day) (Food) Personnel KIA: Apx. 26,000 Personnel MIA: 41,442 (Note: Many of the MIA classified at the end of the war were ultimately classified KIA) United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Fuel Consumption: 867,564,117 Imp. Gal. Battle Damaged A/C Repaired: 59,644 Peak Strength: 40.5 BG(H) 15 FG 2 PR Total Personnel: 350,000 Effective Sorties: 523,574 The United States Eighth Air Force Statistical Summary Tons On Target: Bombs Dropped: 696,450 Leaflets: 6,031.9 Gasoline/Food 19,743.4 Ammunition Expended: 99,256,341 Enemy A/C Claims: Destroyed 15,731 Probable 2,208 Damaged 7,665 Operational Losses: A/C MIA 6,319 Salvage 2,401 Missing 337 Typical Eighth Air Force Mission Heavy Bombers: 1,400 Fighters: 800 Gasoline: 3.5 million gallons Ammunition: 250,000 German A/C Destroyed: 25 U.S. Fighter Losses: 4 U.S. Bomber Losses: 5 Bombing Accuracy: 40% - 1,000 yards of MPI 75% - 2,000 yards of MPI A group of 100 Fortresses could fire one ton of lead per minute from their .50 cal. machine guns. Commanding Officers Brig. Gen. (Then Col.) Asa M. Duncan 26 Jan. 42 – 4 May 42 Gen. (Then Maj. Gen) Carl A. “Tooey” Spaatz 5 May 42 – 30 Nov. 42 Lt. Gen. Ira C. Eaker 1 Dec. 42 – 30 Nov. 42 Lt. Gen. James H. Doolittle 6 Jan. 44 – 9 May 45 Maj. Gen. W. E. Kepner 10 May 45 – VE Day Eighth is still active. Defining Strategic vs. Tactical Bombing Strategic - the use of air power to strike at the very foundation of an enemy's war effort - the production of war material, the economy as a whole, or the morale of the civilian population - rather than as a direct attack on the enemy's army or navy. Tactical - While tactical air power uses aircraft to aid the advance of forces on the ground or on the surface of the ocean, usually in cooperation with those forces, strategic air power usually works in relative independence of armies and navies, although its effects may complement those of a naval blockade - the operation of war most comparable to strategic bombing in its attack on the sources of enemy power. World War II Air Doctrine A. Shaped by World War I experience 1. 1914 – Germany bombs England for the first time. 2. May 1915 – Germans bomb behind Russian Lines. 3. 1917 – A/C used tactically to support ground troops. 4. Anti-submarine attacks. 5. Zeppelin attacks on England. 6. 1917 – Twin-engine Gotha attacks. 7. Purpose of attacks: A. Not to damage war effort B. Ties up resources in defense C. Lower morale Between the Wars Aircraft Production Army Air Force Target Industries AWPD-42 1. Submarine Pens 2. Transportation 3. Hydroelectric Plants 4. Luftwaffe/Aircraft Production – Big Week 5. Ball Bearings 6. Oil 7. V-Weapon Sites Little Known Facts About the Airwar G.H. H2X “Mickey” Diversion Attacks Shuttle Missions Aircraft Markings Infamous Missions 17 August 1942 – Rouen-Sottsville Marshalling Yards. 27 January 1943 - First Attack On Germany 1 August 1943 – First Ploesti Low Level Mission 17 August 1944 – Schweinfurt/Regensburg 22 June 1944 – Berlin/2nd Shuttle/Poltavia 6 June 1944 24 December 1944 – Bastogne Boeing B-17G Flying Fortress Consolidated B-24 Liberator The Fighters Lockheed P-38 Lightning Republic P-47 Thunderbolt The North American P-51 Mustang Combined Air Operations Cost 1,335,000 men 128,000 aircraft 160,000 men KIA or WIA 40,000 aircraft destroyed or damaged RAF BC 55,000 KIA or MIA 9,838 POW 8,403 WIA Results of the Strategic Bombing Campaign 72% of bombs on Germany fell after D-Day The campaign tied down tremendous resources 1.5 million guns 4.5 million troops and civilians Targets 1. Submarine Pens 2. Transportation 3. Hydroelectric Plants 4. Luftwaffe/Aircraft Production – Big Week 5. Ball Bearings 8. Oil 9. V-Weapon Sites AAF Mistakes Failure to get long range fighter escorts sooner AAF disinterested in the P-51 Failure to modify the P-38 for high altitude Air Materials Command – Drop tanks Poor target selection Synthetic Rubber – 4 plants Explosives – 70% made in 7 plants Nitrogen plants – 2 biggest accounted for ½ prod. Aluminum – 14 plants Ethyl fluids – 3 plants Eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead Inland waterways Vital data wasn’t missing – wrong interpretation Largest failure: Dam attacks Nazi Mistakes Technical Developments Failed to improve on ME 109 and 4 engine bombers. High octane av gas Resources wasted on V-Weapons development Equal race for jet production. All out effort would not have helped. Single biggest cause for the defeat of the Luftwaffe: Deterioation of quality of pilots. Death of a Ball Turret Gunner By: Randell R. Jarrel >From my mother’s sleep, I fell into the State, And hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I awoke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died, they washed me out of the turret with a hose. Randell R. Jarrel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:25:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:25:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: I wasn't there, but this is what I know. Tokyo tanks were the tanks placed in the wingtips of the B-17s, I think, starting with the G-models from a production standpoint. An item of interest. If the wing tanks were not set to the "open" position on the ground and at above freezing levels, the valves would malfunction and stay closed. A friend, Lou LaHood, 91st BG, was in transit to Prestwick and had to set down at Rejevick (sp), Iceland, due to weather. That night at briefing, the briefing officer told Lou's flight to open the Tokyo tanks prior to take off. One pilot had not been paying attention and 3/4 of the way to Prestick, the crew ran out of gas and had to ditch. The horror Lou's crew experienced listening to this plane go down is unimaginable. Flying combat would have been rough. But flying to Ireland at 23 years of age, when most people had never been more than a few hundred miles from their homes, is frightening to me even at 44! Keep in mind the airplane in 1943 was still a relatively new invention and flying transatlantic was an even newer phenomenon. Cheers! Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 >statistics. >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:35:25 -0500 > > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay >tanks which > > usually were jettisoned after use. ....... > >................. As the war went > > along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo >tanks. > >Could you explain what a Tokyo tank was then? I have one of >those maintenence manual sets for the B-17, and it only mentions >the bomb bay tanks... no mention of Tokyo, so I guess I always >incorrectly assumed that the Tokyo tank was the same thing as >the bomb bay tank. The manual I have was probably written prior >to them being used. Where were Tokyo tanks located? > > > Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war >and I guess > > such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes >wonder just > > how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > >I guess this is why so many of the veterans never wanted to talk >about their experiences. I think we are lucky to have this forum >with those who are willing to talk about what happened. > I am one of the "young guys" as per the recent discussion of >interest. I was born in 43 on an air base in Ga, where my father >was a flight instructor, before he went overseas to Molesworth. I >was 2 years old by the time VE day came around, and all I >remember of the war period was the celebration when VE day was >announced. > From that time on, my father never talked much about what >happened over there. I am really grateful to be able to read the >stories of those who are comfortable discussing the topic. I am >always a little hesitant trying to pry info out of people, and I know >some times the questions sound dumb, but I figure that if it gets >people to talk, then it is worth it. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:34:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:34:16 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: Bill: I question your statement about CO2 and that empty tanks were an explosion waiting to happen. 17s had collapsable rubber, self-sealing fuel tanks that worked in the same manner as baby formula in a baby bottle that has a plastic liner. As the fluid is sucked out, the "bladder" collapses and no fumes are allowed to form. If anyone disagrees, let me know. I've seen these tanks and they are a remarkable invention, not to mention the rubber deicer boots. The Japanese did not have self-sealing tanks and that is why you see so many Zeros, Kates, and Vals initially explode upon being hit by an incindiary round, then followed by a trail of fire. Unless a 17 tank received a direct hit by a 20 mm, 30 mm, or 88, the tanks would not USUALLY blow up. A standard armor piercing round would simply pass through the tank (no oxygen, no fire), and the rubber would then close around the hole, preventing great loss of fuel. I know these are very broad statements, so please give me a little latitude guys before sending me any nastygrams. Cheers! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 >statistics. >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 > >Rich Young ... > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks >which >usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay >tanks had >CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not done, >an >empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the war >went >along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. > >Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and >I guess >such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes >wonder just >how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > >Cheers! > >BILL HELLER > >Rich Young wrote: > > > Bill Heller - > > > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you >were > > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these >tanks I > > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular > > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced >missions > > requiring their use as well? > > > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine >a > > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam > > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through > > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the >many > > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air >war > > in complete reverence. > > > > Many thanks and regards, > > > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for > > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now >and > > >then just to > > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it >was > > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s >which > > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of >fuel > > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of >those > > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies > > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The >worst one > > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful >of flying > > >through the debris. > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:51:22 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree Message-ID: Jack: What most people forget about fighter attacks is that many times the fighters would be throwing contrails and were very easily spotted! Kevin (The skies were never still!) >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:29:15 EST > >Lloyd: My opinion only. We all had good eyes. 3 oçlock High, Low or Level >was all we needed. They were not hard to see if they were close enough to >fire at us. If you couldn't find them with that maybe you should be >transferred to the mail room or K. P. > Good Night, > Jack Rencher > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:57:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:57:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft maintenance Message-ID: Robert G. Keyes 1119 S Missouri Avenue Roswell, NM 88201 Dale: Bob was with the 83rd Supply Group at the 100th BG at Thorpe Abbotts. ob was also a sheet metal man and built the original B-17 weather vane that now flies over the station. I built one based on his plans. Cheers Kevin >From: "Dale Jensen" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft maintenance >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:02:34 -0600 > >I am an associate member of the 8th AFHS and recently signed on to receive >303rd-talk email. I'm also a soon-to-be-retired USAF and IL ANG aircraft >sheetmetal man (30 years next year). I would like to correspond with any >squadron or Sub depot sheetmetal men. Any leads or information would be >greatly appreciated. > >Thank you >Dale Jensen >b17fan@home.com > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:58:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:58:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree References: <6a.c0ad6d8.27ddd4cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c0ab15$aafdda40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, Your opinion is always a valued one. I will try to avoid making fatuous comments and remarks such as the one you refer to in the future. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree Lloyd: My opinion only. We all had good eyes. 3 oçlock High, Low or Level was all we needed. They were not hard to see if they were close enough to fire at us. If you couldn't find them with that maybe you should be transferred to the mail room or K. P. Good Night, Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 17:02:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:02:44 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury Message-ID: Brian: Sorry for the misinformation about Ian Hudson. I arranged for Peter Mathews to run Ken Lux up to Alconbury last Christmas. Ken told me Ian was a she and gave me the web address. (Ken installed the first H2S on a DeHavilland Mosquito during the war!) Kevin >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >CC: "Ian Hudson" >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:35:56 -0000 > >Kevin - >Alconbury flight ops ceased about 5 years ago, and the last op unit, the >352nd SOG (Special Ops Group) moved to Mildenhall. The AF population >decreased from seveal thousand to a few hundred. The AF badly wanted to >close the base in toto, but could not because they are responsible for >supporting joint units in England and had to keep the admin part of the >base >open to support the JAC at Molesworth. There is not much at Molesworth, as >you know. Alconbury provides the BX, commissary, club, family housing, >theater/library/admin support, and school to support Molesworth operations. >After flight ops ceased, the ops part of the base was separated from the >admin side by a new fence, and ADL manages the old ops side of the base. > >Potential civilian use of the former flight area is a huge political >controversy in England, with many activist groups trying to prevent >reinstitution of flight ops. Huntingdon is a very congested area >traffic-wise, and the additonal freight traffic could make it much worse. >ADL is trying to come up with a plan to minimize the negative impact and >still use the awesome facilities existing at Alconbury, and I hope (and >believe they will) succeed. > >I met with Ian Hudson (he, not she) a few years ago, and he showed me the >blueprints and went over his plans to establish a museum complex at >Alconbury. He is truely committed to this, to the extent of spending >megabucks to move the old WWII tower to the new complex, which will be >awesom. He has a plan to finance it, and he has talked with all of the >pertinent 8AF contacts in England for support. I helped by smoothing a lot >of ruffled feathers caused when the previous tenants of Alconbury reneged >on >earlier agreements with the aforementioned contacts and did not return many >borrowed items when they bugged out in 95. Many people over the years had >contributed material to be displayed in the old control tower. I had >contacted the Historian and others to ensure none of the material would be >lost when the AF closed down flight ops and the ops units left, but we all >got screwed. A lot of stuff disappeared both at Molesworth and Alconbury >when the AF left, and many of us (especially me as the keeper of the flame) >were VERY pissed off, as you can imagine. But Ian gives us reason to hope. >As I mentioned, I will almost certainly be out of here within a year, and I >may offer some items to Ian. > >Thank you for forwarding Ian's response to you. Hope I can help in some >way. >I am active in FOTE (Friends of the Eighth) in England (I am hosting the >next quarterly meeting at Alconbury on 24 March) and can seek any >additional >contacts you may need over here for you during your research. > >Cheers, mate. > >Brian > >You can also contact me outside of 303rd chat (bmcguire@acsdefense.com) >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kevin Pearson >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 5:15 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > One more thing. Alconbury has been deactivated or is already >deactivated > > and is being turned in to an industrial estate and lorry park. Ian S. > > Hudson is the Project Director and her e-mail is ish@alconbury.co.uk. >They > > are planning to preserve the tower, but will move it to a new location. >It > > is a beautiful tower! Here is a list of questions I posed to Ian and >her > > response if anyone is interested: > > > > Kevin > > > > My replies are in square brackets [] > > > > > > 28 January 2000 > > > > Ian S. Hudson, Project Director: > > > > I am writing a book about the former heavy bomber bases used by the >Eighth > > Air Force during the Second World War. My book is a "field guide" for >those > > wishing to visit the old stations. Recently you met a man named Ken Lux >who > > was stationed at Alconbury during the war. He was accompanied by Peter > > Roberts from the East Anglian Aviation Society of which I am also a >member. > > I am hoping you could answer a few questions for me: > > > > 1. What is the status of the airfield? I have heard a private concern > > is in > > the process of turning the old station into an industrial estate and >lorry > > park. Is this true and is your company the one that has purchased the >base? > > [Alconbury Developments Ltd (ADL) is in control of most of the base. We >are > > in joint venture with the Mod and plan to turn the base into a >multi-modal > > freight village. 7,000,000 sq.ft. of warehouses with a direct link to >the > > East Coast Main Railway Line with the possibility of a freight only > > airfield. I am project Director of ADL] > > > > 2. Do you have an accurate base map, showing the location of the > > buildings? > > [Yes - what scale would you like it ?] > > > > 3. Would you have a current aerial photograph of the base? > > [Yes - plus 1945 & 1966 - but they are 3ft square, framed and on our > > reception wall.] > > > > 4. Would any of the old buildings be for sale? I have been working > > with a > > Dutch museum interested in recreating and WWII heavy bomber base and >they > > are looking for a T-2 hangar, Nissen Huts, and Quonset Huts. > > [The is potential for sale - but not our WWII control tower. > > > > 5. Who is/are the present owner(s) of the base? > > [MoD] > > > > Any help you could provide me would be greatly appreciated. I am >willing >to > > pay for any expense you may incur in helping me. > > [Unless there is major expense involved, I do not want payment. I am >much > > more interested in any help you are able to give me. ADL is very >interested > > in commemorating the history of this base. We plan to move the WWII >control > > tower and establish a heritage centre. Perhaps you could give some >thought > > to potential in which we can help each other ?] > > > > > > > > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > > 2514 W. Woodland > > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > > Phone: 001.816.232.4461 (Days) > > 001.816.364.5576 (Nights) > > Fax: 001.816.364.4873 > > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > splasher6@yahoo.com > > kevinmpearson@hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:39:49 -0500 > > > > > >Brian, We were stationed in England three times during my fathers >career. > > > My mother probably influenced these assignments as much as possible, >she > > >was from Cambridge). The first two assignments were in the early and >mid > > >fifties when my dad was a navigator/bombadier in the B47. Our last >duty >in > > >England was at RAF Driffield in Yorkshire, a Thor missle base. > > >One of my dads very good friends was killed in a B47 accident ( I think >in > > >fifty-three, maybe fifty-four). Two crew escaped, but the pilot stayed > > >with > > >the plane it order to avoid hitting a passenger train. Do you have any > > >clue > > >from your end how I could research this accident? I was knee high to a > > >grasshopper at the time, but I remember how terribly this loss affected >my > > >parents and I. It is a bit off the subject of the web ring, so if you >have > > >anything that might point me in the right direction you can let me >know > > >outside the ring at: palidin@worldnet.att.net . I would like to add >your > > >e-mail address to my 303rd folder if I have your permission. Thankyou, >and > > >best. Lloyd > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Brian McGuire > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:32 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, et al - > > > > I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > > >others > > > > to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > > >well. > > >I > > > > guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day >and > > > > anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in >Europe). >I > > >had > > > > quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest >went > > > > dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school >(along > > >with > > > > the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > > >have > > >an > > > > interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the >USAF > > >I > > > > took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest >came > > >back > > > > with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. >American > > > > aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is >one > > >of > > > > only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is >the > > > > other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > > >develop > > > > an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in >the > > >world > > > > I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the >days > > >of > > > > WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > > >remember > > > > the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge >from >a > > > > cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > > >dogfight > > > > for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of >chaps > > > > from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until >they > > >were > > > > out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > > experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning >veteran > > > > that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed >by > > >the > > > > treatment they received from the British citizens when they >returned. > > >They > > > > belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > >citizens, > > > > both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that >the > > > > British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a >SHARED > > > > experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted >you > > > > during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do >a > > >book > > > > on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > > >making > > > > the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > > >Postma, > > > > was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) >British > > > > airborn. > > > > > > > > Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Kevin Pearson > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) >being > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and >how >I > > >got > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran >across > > > > books > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the >air > > >war > > >in > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby >Gabreskie, > > >and > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > >reading > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. >I > > > > started > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. >(I > > >could > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > > >never > > > > talk > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I >would > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > > >more. > > >I > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined >the > > >8th > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he >and >I > > > > went > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > >Flying > > > > on > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > > >become > > >a > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable >things >I > > > > have > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > >secretary > > > > of > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this >day > > >still > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF >heavy > > > > bomber > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt >and > > >was > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > > >bearing > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at >Remagen, > > >the > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch >sites > > >at > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the >91st/324th > > >BS > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated >with > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > > >with > > > > two > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. >Within > > >the > > > > next > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle >of > > >the > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get >interested? > > >I > > > > used > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest >in > > >the > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > Kevin > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 12:18:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:18 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Bridges Message-ID: <01K13XQ0WRWU94IXMX@SMTP00.InfoAve.Net> Dear Gary: Thanks for your help. I found the e-mail address for the Loyds on a previous search, regrettably my mail came back that the address is no longer valid (I believe Merril sent that in Feb of 2000) So the search continues for Sgt. Bridges. P.S. The current e-mail handler used by my ISP does not have options for sending plain text. I apologize for any trouble this causes. Jay ------------------- Email sent using AnyEmail (http://netbula.com/anyemail/) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 18:30:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:30:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? Message-ID: I was reading the narratives for one mission, and it mentioned that one plane had to turn back because the pilot (or co-pilot) was sick with "the bends" . Would this really have been the same kind of bends that scuba divers suffer from, ie nitrogen bubbling from the blood, or was this just a nick-name for gastro-intestinal gas causing a severe stomach ache or chest pains. I've heard from people on other lists that airmen had to be careful about what they ate. Anyway, were the bends suffered by this pilot really the bends, and if so, how common was that? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 19:19:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:19:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] DALE JENSEN-MAINTANENCE - SHEET METAL Message-ID: <001d01c0ab29$6b2e9e40$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> I was a Sgt - A/C Supply - 444th Sub-Depot /// Robert S. Petersen - RSVPeat@aol.com is an ex-sheet metal worker. ----- MOS 555 - S/Sgt] - 444th Sub-depot. He attended 444th renunions with me ink Grand Island, NE. Hope he doesn't send me a letter bomb for giving out his E-mail. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 19:35:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:35:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? Message-ID: Hi Bill: Being a certified scuba diver, I think I am qualified to talk about the bends. I would doubt the bends suffered by the pilot are the same as nitrogen narcosis suffered by scuba divers. Theoretically, it could happen if a person had an excess amount of nitrogen in their system, but because 17s were unpressurized, the likelyhood of nitrogen narcosis is very unlikely. But I will not say it could never happen - there is an exception to every rule. Any doctors out there that could tell us for sure? Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:30:58 -0500 > > > I was reading the narratives for one mission, and it mentioned >that one plane had to turn back because the pilot (or co-pilot) was >sick with "the bends" . Would this really have been the same >kind of bends that scuba divers suffer from, ie nitrogen bubbling >from the blood, or was this just a nick-name for gastro-intestinal >gas causing a severe stomach ache or chest pains. I've heard from >people on other lists that airmen had to be careful about what they >ate. > Anyway, were the bends suffered by this pilot really the bends, >and if so, how common was that? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 19:54:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:54:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS Message-ID: <002501c0ab2e$4333fde0$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> trivia-- In checking my 55+ year old notebook---Tank Self-sealing , oil #1 - #2 - #3 - #4---two pt.# for each === one with metal fittings and one for rubber fittings.==. Didn't find fuel tanks but if my memory[ ????] serves we correctly there were 10 tokyos[or was it 12??]-- Each wing had a main tank [parallel to fuselage and 2 feeders at right angles to the main tank. The tokyos were paralell to the fuselage and between the ribs of the wing extending outward toward the tips. Early in '45[?] a ship came back [no guns were fired] WG got sick changed places with TT.== 20mm thru the fuselage back of door angling forwar, killed TT-- blood covered BT window. 20mm through port wing. I stuck my head into the hole and the damage was terrific-- all tokyos + the main & 2 feeders had to be replaced. As for wing repair and damage Maybe Bob Petersen [MOS 555 - sheet metal] can finish the story. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 19:59:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:59:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree Message-ID: sometimes the me 262 flew nearly straight up to tear up formation. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 20:02:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:02:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury Message-ID: <21.8a30e8e.27de856c@aol.com> distance to alconbury from molesworth? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 20:57:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:24 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: <97.125f8266.27de9234@aol.com> Kevin: Here's a personal observation as related to me by our TT gunner.... on the ill-fated Madneburg Mission, we were flying a late model B-17G... after the first fighter pass we took some 20mm's in the left wing setting the inboard tank on fire... with flames streaming out of the trailing edge... realizing the problem. he got out of the turret, went into the cockpit, pulled the chutes from under the P and CP seats and handed the chutes to them ... he then climbed back into the TT... shortly thereafter the tank blew, shearing off the wing and throwing the plane into a tight spin head... heading straight down... the explosion blew the TT off and the gunner into the open air... where he was able to open his chute... I don't know if we had self sealing tanks... but it appears that flames exhausted the fuel, and the remaining fumes then exploded... taking the wing. Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 21:08:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:08:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury Message-ID: No more than ten kilometers. We took the back roads from Alconbury to Molesworth. Went due west then south. The Motorway system would have been faster and shorter. Brian M., what do you think? Kevin >From: IBSPEC@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:02:52 EST > >distance to alconbury from molesworth? > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 21:13:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:13:05 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tokyo Tanks Message-ID: OK, OK, OK, guys, I get your point. Please note in my message I said "USUALLY." Any ship that took a direct hit by cannon or flak, could have been doomed. And fuel leaking into a wing from a ruptured tank could make for a powerful boom. Please note my comments were general and broad. And I expected to get beat up a little on this, but, hey, I might learn something new, and isn't that really the point!? Kevin >From: WLee289272@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 >statistics. >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:24 EST > >Kevin: Here's a personal observation as related to me by our TT gunner.... >on >the >ill-fated Madneburg Mission, we were flying a late model B-17G... after the >first fighter pass we took some 20mm's in the left wing setting the inboard >tank >on fire... with flames streaming out of the trailing edge... realizing the >problem. >he got out of the turret, went into the cockpit, pulled the chutes from >under >the >P and CP seats and handed the chutes to them ... he then climbed back into >the TT... shortly thereafter the tank blew, shearing off the wing and >throwing >the plane into a tight spin head... heading straight down... the explosion >blew >the TT off and the gunner into the open air... where he was able to open >his >chute... I don't know if we had self sealing tanks... but it appears that >flames >exhausted the fuel, and the remaining fumes then exploded... taking the >wing. > >Will > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 21:16:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:16:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS In-Reply-To: <002501c0ab2e$4333fde0$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > trivia-- In checking my 55+ year old notebook---Tank Self-sealing , oil #1 - > #2 - #3 - #4---two pt.# for each === one with metal fittings and one for > rubber fittings.==. Didn't find fuel tanks but if my memory[ ????] serves we > correctly there were 10 tokyos[or was it 12??]-- Each wing had a main > tank [parallel to fuselage and 2 feeders at right angles to the main tank. > The tokyos were paralell to the fuselage and between the ribs of the wing > extending outward toward the tips. Thanks, I think I understand now. I just took a look at the diagram of the B-17F vs the B-17G , and I now see that The F only had a tank for each engine, and a feeder tank in each wing (ie a total of 3 tanks per wing), arranged just like you describe above. The G model has 9 extra smaller tanks per wing, that they label as outer and inner wing tanks. The diagram for the G model also indicates that the bomb-bay tanks can also be employed. So if I understand then, the Tokyo tanks are the 9 smaller tanks out on the wing tips? For anyone interested in the diagram, go to: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/b17fuel.jpg Also, in the B-17F manual, there was a picture of the bomb loading patterns when the bomb-bay fuel tank was used. From the looks of the diagrams, each tank would take up one side of the bomb bay, and no bombs would fit on that side. If both tanks were used, then only exterior bombs could be carried. Anyway, thanks for the clarification re the Tokyo tanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 21:23:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:23:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! Message-ID: Here is a pic of the 100th BG weather vane I mentioned in an earlier e-mail. Gary Moncur has graciously helped me post it to a web site so you can see it. The only thing that would make it better is if it carried the markings of the Big Triangle C. http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/weathervane.jpg Yes, I made this sucker all by myself and spent about 100 hours doing so. B-17 Ornament was cut out of 8 guage steel on a Liquid Plasma Torch, all the lettering was cut from 10 guage aluminium buy hand. Please note the white V for "Victory," and the 8th AF emblem. This bird now adorns my garage and I have had all sorts of people knock on my door wondering what it was, including a couple of vets who did know what it was! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 19:53:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:53:34 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> <00c701c0aa14$b190d260$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <3AABD27C.A66298E6@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00ef01c0ab3c$81275580$f80110ac@Betac.com> And might I add, for those of you that have not been there yet, the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum in Savannah (actually Pooler, right off I95) is close to being the best aviation museum in the world. Not many airplanes, but an emphasis on the people of the 8th. Well worth a special trip just to see the museum. Readers might be interested to know that when the museum was dedicated in May 96 (5th anniversary coming up) that when the Memorial Gardens was dedicated in a special ceremony, Gen Lew Lyle sprinkled soil into the gardens from a former 8AF airfield - MOLESWORTH! Cheers from the Motherland. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Brian McGuire ... > > As YOU know, most people can get more WW#2 history from the Mighty 8th AF > Heritage Museum in Savannah than from ANY OTHER organization now known .... > Some organizations have had DECADES to assist in this, and did not. > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > Brian McGuire wrote: > > > A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a > > discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two > > paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran this > > story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on > > Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one page > > on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are > > simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really > > like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. > > Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a few > > generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that cost > > 50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and > > political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining moments > > for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > > > > Brian M > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education (and > > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > > Bolo > > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" I > > told > > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and > > she > > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > > Jewish > > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And the > > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is > > WANTING > > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should > > hang > > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane to > > your > > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... > > and > > > replies to your message. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and > > what a > > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all day > > for > > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up to > > the > > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > > anticipating a > > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > > absolutely > > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > > Wright > > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was > > used > > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about the > > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people > > speak > > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the younf > > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war and > > am > > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But I > > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father > > of > > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > > The Netherlands > > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and > > his > > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of > > the > > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's Hennie's > > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it to > > > > you. > > > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > > Jupiter 6 > > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > > others > > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > > well. I > > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day and > > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). I > > had > > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest went > > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along > > with > > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > > have > > > > >an > > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > > USAF I > > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest came > > back > > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is one > > of > > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is > > the > > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > > develop > > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the > > world > > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the days > > of > > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > > remember > > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge from > > a > > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > > dogfight > > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > > chaps > > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they > > were > > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > > veteran > > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed by > > the > > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. > > They > > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > > >citizens, > > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that > > the > > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a SHARED > > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted you > > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do a > > book > > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > > making > > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > > Postma, > > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) British > > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > > >Brian > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > > being > > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and how > > I > > > > >got > > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > > across > > > > >books > > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the air > > war > > > > >in > > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > > Gabreskie, > > > > >and > > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > > > >reading > > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. I > > > > >started > > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. (I > > > > >could > > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > > never > > > > >talk > > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I would > > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > > more. > > > > >I > > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined the > > 8th > > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he and > > I > > > > >went > > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > > > >Flying > > > > >on > > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > > become > > > > >a > > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable things > > I > > > > >have > > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > > >secretary > > > > >of > > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this day > > > > >still > > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy > > > > >bomber > > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt and > > was > > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > > bearing > > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, > > the > > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > > sites > > > > >at > > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > > 91st/324th > > > > >BS > > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated with > > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > > with > > > > >two > > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. Within > > the > > > > >next > > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle of > > the > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get interested? > > I > > > > >used > > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest in > > the > > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 20:22:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:22:30 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: Message-ID: <00f001c0ab3c$8514e360$f80110ac@Betac.com> And it is not just the kids. At Molesworth there is a newcomer's orientation every two weeks, for all ranks and civilians, etc. They give me 30 minutes (which I always exceed) to cover 303rd history. It goes fast and the interest is unbelieveable. I start by asking how many of them heard of Molesworth before they got orders to come here? I have only had one group that approached 50 percent. Then I tell them that of all the stations in the world that they could be assigned to, Molesworth probably has the richest heritage. When I am done I think they agree. The Christmas card project every year demonstrates the interest here in this community, as school classes, Scout troops (one in Michigan also participates every year), spouses groups, work centers, military groups (i.e., Top Three, Company Grade Officers Club), and many others participate. Over 10,200 cards the past 5 years. Once I addressed a Scout troop, with a 45-minute max time limit, and I had to call a halt after nearly 2 hours! Once they are exposed to history, the interest grows. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > Brian, et. al. - I do a lot of speaking to kids at all levels, from Eagle > Scouts to fourth and fifth graders. I do two talks, one a statistical > summary of what the Eighth accomplished, (if any of you want this, let me > know) and one about my search for the lost planes of the 91st on 16.8.44. I > ALWAYS take at least two veterans with me, usually Jim Hower, a Command > Co-Pilot (Group Formation Officer); and Joe Jameson, a waist gunner; both > from the 447th BG(H) at Rattlesden. The kids yawn, moan, and generally dose > through my talk, but when Jim and Joe get up and start talking about > assembly accidents and shooting down German fighters, all eyes come alive. > And you can guess who the kids ask the most questions from. The kids are > pretty interested in me digging up the remains of planes shot down from the > war, even the girls. Here I stress that evey person is drawn to some small > slice of history and I encourage the kids to follow their dreams and learn > as much about that time in history that most interests them. > > But for you vets that have never done the speaking circuit - GET OUT THERE, > if you are able. The kids love hearing from you. Contact your local school > superintendents and volunteer to speak to classes. You will not be sorry. > And the letters of thanks that Jim and Joe have received would bring tears > to your eyes. Both keep theirs in a scrapbook. > Cheers! > Kevin > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:50:38 -0000 > > > >A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a > >discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two > >paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran > >this > >story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on > >Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one page > >on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are > >simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really > >like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. > >Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a few > >generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that > >cost > >50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and > >political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining > >moments > >for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > > > >Brian M > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: William Heller > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education > >(and > > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > >Bolo > > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that represent?" > >I > >told > > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO and > >she > > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > >Jewish > > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And > >the > > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education is > >WANTING > > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name should > >hang > > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is germane > >to > >your > > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 ... > >and > > > replies to your message. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now and > >what a > > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all > >day > >for > > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked and > > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed up > >to > >the > > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > >anticipating a > > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > >absolutely > > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the Rolls-Royce > > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > >Wright > > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford was > >used > > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain haunting > > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about > >the > > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young people > >speak > > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the > >younf > > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war > >and > >am > > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. But > >I > > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the father > >of > > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my library. > > > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > > The Netherlands > > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert and > >his > > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many of > >the > > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's > >Hennie's > > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give it > >to > > > > you. > > > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > > Jupiter 6 > > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans and > >others > > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > >well. I > > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day > >and > > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in Europe). > >I > >had > > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest > >went > > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school (along > >with > > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I now > >have > > > > >an > > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > >USAF I > > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest > >came > >back > > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. American > > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is > >one > >of > > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury is > >the > > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > >develop > > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in the > >world > > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the > >days > >of > > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > >remember > > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge > >from > >a > > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > >dogfight > > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > >chaps > > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until they > >were > > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you couldn't > > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > >veteran > > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed > >by > >the > > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they returned. > >They > > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > > >citizens, > > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is that > >the > > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a > >SHARED > > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted > >you > > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to do > >a > >book > > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > >making > > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > >Postma, > > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) > >British > > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > > >Brian > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > >being > > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and > >how > >I > > > > >got > > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > >across > > > > >books > > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the > >air > >war > > > > >in > > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > >Gabreskie, > > > > >and > > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly remember > > > > >reading > > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that age. > >I > > > > >started > > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. > >(I > > > > >could > > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he would > >never > > > > >talk > > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I > >would > > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity even > >more. > > > > >I > > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined > >the > >8th > > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he > >and > >I > > > > >went > > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply outstanding! > > > > >Flying > > > > >on > > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old man > >become > > > > >a > > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable > >things > >I > > > > >have > > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > > >secretary > > > > >of > > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this > >day > > > > >still > > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF > >heavy > > > > >bomber > > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour of > > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt > >and > >was > > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > >bearing > > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at > >Remagen, > >the > > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > >sites > > > > >at > > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > >91st/324th > > > > >BS > > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated > >with > > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to Arnhem > >with > > > > >two > > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. > >Within > >the > > > > >next > > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle > >of > >the > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get > >interested? > >I > > > > >used > > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen interest > >in > >the > > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 20:53:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:53:45 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree References: Message-ID: <00f301c0ab3c$904fa4e0$f80110ac@Betac.com> By the way, that is the titled of an outstanding book of poems about the Mighty Eighth (includes several by Roger Freeman - yes, he writes poems, too). I have saved poems on the 8th that I have come across and have probably the volume found in the book. Editors are Robert E. Doherty and James W. Hill. I have talked to many Brits about this, and it was LITERALLY true! RAF flying nights, 8AF/9AF days, and many training and test missions as well meant that there was a constant din throughout Britain. Many have told me that the total silence at the end of the war was absolutely eiry and very hard to get use to. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree > Jack: What most people forget about fighter attacks is that many times the > fighters would be throwing contrails and were very easily spotted! > Kevin > (The skies were never still!) > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:29:15 EST > > > >Lloyd: My opinion only. We all had good eyes. 3 oçlock High, Low or Level > >was all we needed. They were not hard to see if they were close enough to > >fire at us. If you couldn't find them with that maybe you should be > >transferred to the mail room or K. P. > > Good Night, > > Jack Rencher > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 20:49:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:49:31 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <00f201c0ab3c$8e507980$f80110ac@Betac.com> I have heard two stories (corroborated) about unexploded bullets being fished out of empty tanks upon landing (once at Molesworth), and upon inspection finding no gunpowder in them! On two occasions a bullet contained a note from a force laborer stating that that was all he could do to help the allies. A brave soul indeed because if caught it meant death. But I suspect many a crew was saved by these forced laborers. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > Bill: I question your statement about CO2 and that empty tanks were an > explosion waiting to happen. 17s had collapsable rubber, self-sealing fuel > tanks that worked in the same manner as baby formula in a baby bottle that > has a plastic liner. As the fluid is sucked out, the "bladder" collapses > and no fumes are allowed to form. If anyone disagrees, let me know. I've > seen these tanks and they are a remarkable invention, not to mention the > rubber deicer boots. The Japanese did not have self-sealing tanks and that > is why you see so many Zeros, Kates, and Vals initially explode upon being > hit by an incindiary round, then followed by a trail of fire. Unless a 17 > tank received a direct hit by a 20 mm, 30 mm, or 88, the tanks would not > USUALLY blow up. A standard armor piercing round would simply pass through > the tank (no oxygen, no fire), and the rubber would then close around the > hole, preventing great loss of fuel. > > I know these are very broad statements, so please give me a little latitude > guys before sending me any nastygrams. > Cheers! > Kevin > > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 > >statistics. > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 > > > >Rich Young ... > > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks > >which > >usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay > >tanks had > >CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not done, > >an > >empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the war > >went > >along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. > > > >Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and > >I guess > >such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes > >wonder just > >how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > > > >Cheers! > > > >BILL HELLER > > > >Rich Young wrote: > > > > > Bill Heller - > > > > > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you > >were > > > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these > >tanks I > > > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular > > > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced > >missions > > > requiring their use as well? > > > > > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine > >a > > > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > > > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam > > > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > > > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through > > > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the > >many > > > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air > >war > > > in complete reverence. > > > > > > Many thanks and regards, > > > > > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for > > > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now > >and > > > >then just to > > > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it > >was > > > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s > >which > > > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of > >fuel > > > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of > >those > > > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies > > > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The > >worst one > > > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful > >of flying > > > >through the debris. > > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 21:39:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:39:37 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury References: <21.8a30e8e.27de856c@aol.com> Message-ID: <010801c0ab3c$f10e2f40$f80110ac@Betac.com> About 10 miles. Good road all the way. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alconbury > distance to alconbury from molesworth? > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:01:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:01:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS References: <002501c0ab2e$4333fde0$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <002901c0ab40$0e79e4e0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS Now we know what they were for , does anyone know why they had such a peculiar name? > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! References: Message-ID: <002f01c0ab40$cab09280$17904d0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! > Very nice, Kevin. You are obviously a man for all seasons, and ever in view of your direction. Thanks for sharing. G. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:21:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:21:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude Message-ID: <000801c0ab42$c63aafe0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AB18.DB29FA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit High altitude sickness explained in laymans terms. It is no joke. G http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AB18.DB29FA20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="High Altitude.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="High Altitude.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html Modified=8083FC5442ABC00101 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AB18.DB29FA20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:37:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:37:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS In-Reply-To: <002901c0ab40$0e79e4e0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Now we know what they were for , does anyone know why they had such a > peculiar name? I was going to ask the same question, then it occurred to me that perhaps they were originally supposed to give the B-17 the range to reach Tokyo? Just a guess. I'm sure someone will know for sure. According to the manual I have, the wing tanks added over 1000 gal fuel capacity. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:37:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:37:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Welcome Back Hal Susskind !!! Message-ID: <3AACED39.10390.CC8506@localhost> Hal, We're delighted to have you back with us! We'd glad the surgery went well. The list has been very active since you've been gone. You might want to read over the archived messages. Glad you're back, Hal - we missed you! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:40:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:40:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? References: Message-ID: <001601c0ab45$6a2cfc00$34f833cf@richards> YES. SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? > > I was reading the narratives for one mission, and it mentioned > that one plane had to turn back because the pilot (or co-pilot) was > sick with "the bends" . Would this really have been the same > kind of bends that scuba divers suffer from, ie nitrogen bubbling > from the blood, or was this just a nick-name for gastro-intestinal > gas causing a severe stomach ache or chest pains. I've heard from > people on other lists that airmen had to be careful about what they > ate. > Anyway, were the bends suffered by this pilot really the bends, > and if so, how common was that? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:52:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:52:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! In-Reply-To: <002f01c0ab40$cab09280$17904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Very nice, Kevin. You are obviously a man for all seasons, and ever in > view of your direction. Thanks for sharing. G. That is nice. I may try making something like that myself, although for me it would have to be out of wood. A nice brass version would make a nice money making thing that could be sold in the 303rdbga PX . I just hope that if they do, they remember to put a triangle C on it. I bought several of those little B-17 refrigerator magnets that they sell there, and then found out that they are triangle G planes, 42-97674, WF-A, 305thBG. I was thinking about using an exacto knife to change the G to a C, but the WF would be harder. Anyway, I bet a lot of people would buy a nice weather vane like that. Next time I go past one of those shops that make the chicken and pig weather-vanes, I'll have to ask if they could make one with a B-17. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:54:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:54:44 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS References: <002501c0ab2e$4333fde0$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> <002901c0ab40$0e79e4e0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <003a01c0ab47$6f451540$34f833cf@richards> LLOYD: TOKYO SO IN THE PACIFIC THEATER THE B17 COULD REACH TOKYO . THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD IN JULY 1944 WHEN I WAS FLYING MY TOUR AT THE 303RD. SPIDER SMITH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Paulk > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:54 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > > > Now we know what they were for , does anyone know why they had such a > peculiar name? > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > > a. k. a. > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 22:59:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:59:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? References: Message-ID: <004701c0ab48$11004800$34f833cf@richards> KEVIN : BEING A PILOT OF BOTH BOMBERS AND FIGHTERS WE WERE TOLD IN OUR ALTITUDE CHAMBER TRAINING THAT WE COULD SUFFER THE BENDS ESPECIALLY IF WE ATE THE WRONG FOODS WHICH WOULD PRODUCE GAS WITH NITROGEN INCLUDED. SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? > Hi Bill: Being a certified scuba diver, I think I am qualified to talk > about the bends. I would doubt the bends suffered by the pilot are the same > as nitrogen narcosis suffered by scuba divers. Theoretically, it could > happen if a person had an excess amount of nitrogen in their system, but > because 17s were unpressurized, the likelyhood of nitrogen narcosis is very > unlikely. But I will not say it could never happen - there is an exception > to every rule. > > Any doctors out there that could tell us for sure? > Kevin > > > >From: "Bill Jones" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:30:58 -0500 > > > > > > I was reading the narratives for one mission, and it mentioned > >that one plane had to turn back because the pilot (or co-pilot) was > >sick with "the bends" . Would this really have been the same > >kind of bends that scuba divers suffer from, ie nitrogen bubbling > >from the blood, or was this just a nick-name for gastro-intestinal > >gas causing a severe stomach ache or chest pains. I've heard from > >people on other lists that airmen had to be careful about what they > >ate. > > Anyway, were the bends suffered by this pilot really the bends, > >and if so, how common was that? > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 23:15:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:15:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude In-Reply-To: <000801c0ab42$c63aafe0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > High altitude sickness explained in laymans terms. It is no joke. G > > http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html > They had a PBS NOVA show about that once, in re people getting sick climbing Mt Everest. It was very nasty. However that is something that takes a long time at the altitude to manifest itself. I don't think that would be what the pilot in this case had. In fact the co-pilot in question flew on the very next mission. If he had that high altitude sickness, or even the real bends, I don't think they would let him fly the next day. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 23:39:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:39:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <3b.11a4781d.27deb841@aol.com> --part1_3b.11a4781d.27deb841_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Thanks for the address. I get the card off tomorrow. Thanks again. Brooklyn Bill --part1_3b.11a4781d.27deb841_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi:
   Thanks for the address. I get the card off tomorrow. Thanks again.

Brooklyn Bill --part1_3b.11a4781d.27deb841_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 00:09:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:09:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS References: Message-ID: <000501c0ab51$d0c2c560$5a904d0c@o3n4f8> That was my guess too, Bill. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > > > Now we know what they were for , does anyone know why they had such a > > peculiar name? > > I was going to ask the same question, then it occurred to me that > perhaps they were originally supposed to give the B-17 the range to > reach Tokyo? Just a guess. I'm sure someone will know for sure. > According to the manual I have, the wing tanks added over 1000 > gal fuel capacity. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 00:10:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:10:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Welcome Back Hal Susskind !!! References: <3AACED39.10390.CC8506@localhost> Message-ID: <000d01c0ab52$053c9be0$5a904d0c@o3n4f8> Roger Garys' message, Hal. Hope you are well and good. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 5:37 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Welcome Back Hal Susskind !!! > Hal, > We're delighted to have you back with us! We'd glad the surgery > went well. The list has been very active since you've been gone. > You might want to read over the archived messages. > > Glad you're back, Hal - we missed you! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 00:13:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:13:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS References: <002501c0ab2e$4333fde0$98bb9ace@mjpmtman> <002901c0ab40$0e79e4e0$17904d0c@o3n4f8> <003a01c0ab47$6f451540$34f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <001701c0ab52$741e88c0$5a904d0c@o3n4f8> Roger that , Spider. That's what we thought. Thanks. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > LLOYD: > TOKYO SO IN THE PACIFIC THEATER THE B17 COULD REACH TOKYO . THAT'S WHAT WE > WERE TOLD IN JULY 1944 WHEN I WAS FLYING MY TOUR AT THE 303RD. > SPIDER SMITH > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maurice Paulk > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:54 PM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS > > > > > > Now we know what they were for , does anyone know why they had such a > > peculiar name? > > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > > > a. k. a. > > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 00:35:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:35:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Formation integrity Message-ID: <002b01c0ab55$93c05840$5a904d0c@o3n4f8> It was mentioned in earlier comments that Luftwaffe fighters would generally eschew attacking "tight" formations in favor of those.more loosely formed Comment , if you will, on the difficulty of maintaining close groupings, and the advantages (most are obvious) and disadvantages that might accrue (ie) defensive fire power enroute vs. the ability to dodge flak over the target. Regards and thanks. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 02:34:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:34:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 computer game - 303rd customised! References: <20010312075801.42DF15354A@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0ab66$107b3de0$ddd14e0c@jack> Some of you may know about a new computer game called B-17 Flying Fortress - The Mighty Eighth It is a wonderful simulation of mission originating from the English airfields to targets in Germany. The game was done using squadrons from the later half of the war with silver B-17G planes. Well.... I managed to get a program that allowed me to access the files the determine the appearance of the planes and did my own artwork. To make a long story short, all the planes in my game now look just like the older olive green variety, complete with Molesworth designations and 303rd lettering. It was quite an exciting thing to see the B-17's in the game looking like that! If anyone else out there has the game mentioned, let me know. Jack T From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:21:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:21:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AACF7A4.98BEEABC@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearons ... Bomb bay tanks were NOT collapsable - as you mention. I did not use CO2 but learned later that CO2 capsules WERE used to purge an empty tank. As to B17 fuel tanks causing an explosion, if hit by enemy fire, it was my observation (in combat) that when an enemy RAKED the wing of a B17 with his gunfire, the tank indeed, could and did explode and catch fire. On the other hand, as you correctly stated, a bullet - or flak - could penetrate a tank and NOT cause it to flame, burn or explode. MANY times I watched as flak shrapnel PEIRCED my wing from beneath and came out the top, going right through the self-sealing tank and causing no problem. It is a funny sight to see this occur. The top of your wing looks like a calm lake IMMEDIATELY after a heavy rain storm hits, and the marks on the tope of my wing looked just like those raindrops hitting the calm lake, as each bit of shrapnel ripped the top of the wing as it exited. Cheers! BILL HELLER Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill: I question your statement about CO2 and that empty tanks were an > explosion waiting to happen. 17s had collapsable rubber, self-sealing fuel > tanks that worked in the same manner as baby formula in a baby bottle that > has a plastic liner. As the fluid is sucked out, the "bladder" collapses > and no fumes are allowed to form. If anyone disagrees, let me know. I've > seen these tanks and they are a remarkable invention, not to mention the > rubber deicer boots. The Japanese did not have self-sealing tanks and that > is why you see so many Zeros, Kates, and Vals initially explode upon being > hit by an incindiary round, then followed by a trail of fire. Unless a 17 > tank received a direct hit by a 20 mm, 30 mm, or 88, the tanks would not > USUALLY blow up. A standard armor piercing round would simply pass through > the tank (no oxygen, no fire), and the rubber would then close around the > hole, preventing great loss of fuel. > > I know these are very broad statements, so please give me a little latitude > guys before sending me any nastygrams. > Cheers! > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 > >statistics. > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 > > > >Rich Young ... > > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks > >which > >usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay > >tanks had > >CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not done, > >an > >empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the war > >went > >along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. > > > >Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and > >I guess > >such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes > >wonder just > >how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > > > >Cheers! > > > >BILL HELLER > > > >Rich Young wrote: > > > > > Bill Heller - > > > > > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you > >were > > > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these > >tanks I > > > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular > > > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced > >missions > > > requiring their use as well? > > > > > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine > >a > > > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > > > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam > > > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > > > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through > > > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the > >many > > > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air > >war > > > in complete reverence. > > > > > > Many thanks and regards, > > > > > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for > > > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now > >and > > > >then just to > > > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it > >was > > > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s > >which > > > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of > >fuel > > > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of > >those > > > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies > > > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The > >worst one > > > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful > >of flying > > > >through the debris. > > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:28:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:28:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree References: Message-ID: <3AACF928.B3CD9A43@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Contrails were GREAT when they affected enemy fighters and HORRIBLE when we made them. Of course, one could never know when contrails would exist as it was the result of a combination of temperature, vapor and humidity at the time. How many times have you watched an American Western movie and seen contrails in the sky? I am told that THAT is what drives Movie Directors crazy even when their weather forecasters work very hard on it. As a retired airline captain, I KNEW when I was making contrails (due to the shadow when visible) and a fellow twelve miles to either side of me was not. Strange. Cheers! BILL HELLER Kevin Pearson wrote: > Jack: What most people forget about fighter attacks is that many times the > fighters would be throwing contrails and were very easily spotted! > Kevin > (The skies were never still!) > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] O:Clock / Degree > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:29:15 EST > > > >Lloyd: My opinion only. We all had good eyes. 3 oçlock High, Low or Level > >was all we needed. They were not hard to see if they were close enough to > >fire at us. If you couldn't find them with that maybe you should be > >transferred to the mail room or K. P. > > Good Night, > > Jack Rencher > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 04:06:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:06:02 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: <17.12d5d19e.27def6aa@aol.com> The Tokyo tanks were factory installed in the wing tips. They fed by gravity into the main tanks as I remember. Jack Reenter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 04:22:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:22:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: <49.89eaae0.27defa88@aol.com> Kevin, I don't think the tanks collapsed but they were very self sealing. We have had them shot full of holes regularly but rarely lost much fuel. The d ice boots we took of before we flew them. Ice was no problem. We went up and down through the icing levels to fast to accumulate much. When the dicer boots got hit and damaged they created a real problem flopping in the wind and affected the airflow over the wing and destroyed the lift. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:09:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:09:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <3AAA6C1A.9E7DE7FC@attglobal.net> <00c701c0aa14$b190d260$6d0110ac@Betac.com> <3AABD27C.A66298E6@attglobal.net> <00ef01c0ab3c$81275580$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AACF4AC.5827AF71@attglobal.net> I vass dere, Brian! Cheers! HELLER Brian McGuire wrote: > And might I add, for those of you that have not been there yet, the Mighty > Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum in Savannah (actually Pooler, right off > I95) is close to being the best aviation museum in the world. Not many > airplanes, but an emphasis on the people of the 8th. Well worth a special > trip just to see the museum. > > Readers might be interested to know that when the museum was dedicated in > May 96 (5th anniversary coming up) that when the Memorial Gardens was > dedicated in a special ceremony, Gen Lew Lyle sprinkled soil into the > gardens from a former 8AF airfield - MOLESWORTH! > > Cheers from the Motherland. > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > Brian McGuire ... > > > > As YOU know, most people can get more WW#2 history from the Mighty 8th AF > > Heritage Museum in Savannah than from ANY OTHER organization now known > ..... > > Some organizations have had DECADES to assist in this, and did not. > > > > Cheers! > > > > BILL HELLER > > > > Brian McGuire wrote: > > > > > A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a > > > discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two > > > paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran > this > > > story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages > on > > > Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one > page > > > on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are > > > simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really > > > like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. > > > Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a > few > > > generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that > cost > > > 50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and > > > political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining > moments > > > for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > > > > > > Brian M > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Heller > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education > (and > > > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > > > Bolo > > > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that > represent?" I > > > told > > > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO > and > > > she > > > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > > > Jewish > > > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And > the > > > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education > is > > > WANTING > > > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name > should > > > hang > > > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is > germane to > > > your > > > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 > .... > > > and > > > > replies to your message. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now > and > > > what a > > > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all > day > > > for > > > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked > and > > > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed > up to > > > the > > > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > > > anticipating a > > > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > > > absolutely > > > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the > Rolls-Royce > > > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > > > Wright > > > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford > was > > > used > > > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain > haunting > > > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about > the > > > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young > people > > > speak > > > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the > younf > > > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war > and > > > am > > > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. > But I > > > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the > father > > > of > > > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my > library. > > > > > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert > and > > > his > > > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many > of > > > the > > > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's > Hennie's > > > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give > it to > > > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > > > Jupiter 6 > > > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans > and > > > others > > > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > > > well. I > > > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day > and > > > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in > Europe). I > > > had > > > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest > went > > > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school > (along > > > with > > > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I > now > > > have > > > > > >an > > > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > > > USAF I > > > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest > came > > > back > > > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. > American > > > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is > one > > > of > > > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury > is > > > the > > > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > > > develop > > > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in > the > > > world > > > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the > days > > > of > > > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > > > remember > > > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge > from > > > a > > > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > > > dogfight > > > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > > > chaps > > > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until > they > > > were > > > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you > couldn't > > > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > > > veteran > > > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed > by > > > the > > > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they > returned. > > > They > > > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > > > >citizens, > > > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is > that > > > the > > > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a > SHARED > > > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted > you > > > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to > do a > > > book > > > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > > > making > > > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > > > Postma, > > > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) > British > > > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > > > > >Brian > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > > > being > > > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and > how > > > I > > > > > >got > > > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > > > across > > > > > >books > > > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the > air > > > war > > > > > >in > > > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > > > Gabreskie, > > > > > >and > > > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly > remember > > > > > >reading > > > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that > age. I > > > > > >started > > > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. > (I > > > > > >could > > > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he > would > > > never > > > > > >talk > > > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I > would > > > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity > even > > > more. > > > > > >I > > > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined > the > > > 8th > > > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he > and > > > I > > > > > >went > > > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply > outstanding! > > > > > >Flying > > > > > >on > > > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old > man > > > become > > > > > >a > > > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable > things > > > I > > > > > >have > > > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > > > >secretary > > > > > >of > > > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this > day > > > > > >still > > > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF > heavy > > > > > >bomber > > > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour > of > > > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt > and > > > was > > > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > > > bearing > > > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at > Remagen, > > > the > > > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > > > sites > > > > > >at > > > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > > > 91st/324th > > > > > >BS > > > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated > with > > > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to > Arnhem > > > with > > > > > >two > > > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. > Within > > > the > > > > > >next > > > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle > of > > > the > > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get > interested? > > > I > > > > > >used > > > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen > interest in > > > the > > > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:10:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:10:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested References: <00f001c0ab3c$8514e360$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3AACF4F9.EB83577@attglobal.net> Brian! SO glad to hear you are doing that. Cheers! HELLER Brian McGuire wrote: > And it is not just the kids. At Molesworth there is a newcomer's orientation > every two weeks, for all ranks and civilians, etc. They give me 30 minutes > (which I always exceed) to cover 303rd history. It goes fast and the > interest is unbelieveable. I start by asking how many of them heard of > Molesworth before they got orders to come here? I have only had one group > that approached 50 percent. Then I tell them that of all the stations in the > world that they could be assigned to, Molesworth probably has the richest > heritage. When I am done I think they agree. The Christmas card project > every year demonstrates the interest here in this community, as school > classes, Scout troops (one in Michigan also participates every year), > spouses groups, work centers, military groups (i.e., Top Three, Company > Grade Officers Club), and many others participate. Over 10,200 cards the > past 5 years. Once I addressed a Scout troop, with a 45-minute max time > limit, and I had to call a halt after nearly 2 hours! Once they are exposed > to history, the interest grows. > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > Brian, et. al. - I do a lot of speaking to kids at all levels, from Eagle > > Scouts to fourth and fifth graders. I do two talks, one a statistical > > summary of what the Eighth accomplished, (if any of you want this, let me > > know) and one about my search for the lost planes of the 91st on 16.8.44. > I > > ALWAYS take at least two veterans with me, usually Jim Hower, a Command > > Co-Pilot (Group Formation Officer); and Joe Jameson, a waist gunner; both > > from the 447th BG(H) at Rattlesden. The kids yawn, moan, and generally > dose > > through my talk, but when Jim and Joe get up and start talking about > > assembly accidents and shooting down German fighters, all eyes come alive. > > And you can guess who the kids ask the most questions from. The kids are > > pretty interested in me digging up the remains of planes shot down from > the > > war, even the girls. Here I stress that evey person is drawn to some > small > > slice of history and I encourage the kids to follow their dreams and learn > > as much about that time in history that most interests them. > > > > But for you vets that have never done the speaking circuit - GET OUT > THERE, > > if you are able. The kids love hearing from you. Contact your local > school > > superintendents and volunteer to speak to classes. You will not be sorry. > > And the letters of thanks that Jim and Joe have received would bring tears > > to your eyes. Both keep theirs in a scrapbook. > > Cheers! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:50:38 -0000 > > > > > >A few anecdotes from veterans visiting Molesworth: one told me during a > > >discussion that he checked his high school son's text, and found two > > >paragraphs (yes, PARAGRAPHS) covering WWII. When I told another veteran > > >this > > >story, he told me his high school daughter's history text had 16 pages on > > >Martin Luther King (I don't have any problem with that), but only one > page > > >on WWII (I have lots of problems with that). Many veteran's groups are > > >simply means for the veterans to get together, which is OK, but I really > > >like the stated goals of the 8AF Historical Society, which is EDUCATION. > > >Maybe just because it is so recent it doesn't get much coverage, but a > few > > >generations from now I think people will realize that the conflict that > > >cost > > >50-100 million lives and changed totally the social, ideological, and > > >political configuration of the world was perhaps one of the defining > > >moments > > >for civilization. Don't get me started, I could go on for hours. > > > > > >Brian M > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: William Heller > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 6:02 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > > > > Anent your message wherein you mentioned the dearth of WW#2 education > > >(and > > > > history) in American schools, image my chagrin, when wearing my 8th AF > > >Bolo > > > > Tie, the NURSE in my doctor's office asked, "What does that > represent?" > > >I > > >told > > > > her it represented the 8th AF which practically WON WW#2 in the ETO > and > > >she > > > > asked, "What was World War II?" At this juncture, my doctor, who is > > >Jewish > > > > said, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust." And > > >the > > > > nurse asked, "And what is the Holocaust?" I REST MY CASE! Education > is > > >WANTING > > > > in America and all the educated people with PhD behind their name > should > > >hang > > > > their head in shame! The Webmaster may not feel this remark is > germane > > >to > > >your > > > > message but it does indicate what is WANTING regarding our own WW#2 > .... > > >and > > > > replies to your message. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Brian: I've been to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford twice now > and > > >what a > > > > > sight it is to behold! The last time I was there, I had waited all > > >day > > >for > > > > > the culmination of the airshow, a flyby with 27 Spits. I checked > and > > > > > rechecked my camera several times as they took off and then formed > up > > >to > > >the > > > > > north of the field. Wiit camera tightly gripped in my hands, > > >anticipating a > > > > > one in a million shot, the Spits roared over Hangar 3 and I was > > >absolutely > > > > > awestruck. I could not move a muscle! The sound from the > Rolls-Royce > > > > > Merlins and Packard-built Griffons was almost as good as a R1820-97 > > >Wright > > > > > Cyclone. I could only think back to the days of 1940 when Duxford > was > > >used > > > > > by the RAF during the battle of Britain. There was a certain > haunting > > > > > feeling over the base that day. > > > > > > > > > > What impressed me the most were the children. They knew more about > > >the > > > > > Spits than us older guys. It was very refreshing to hear young > people > > >speak > > > > > with such reverence about the war. I've never heard that from the > > >younf > > > > > people here in America. I speak to many local classes about the war > > >and > > >am > > > > > amazed most don't even know when it was or where it was founght. > But > > >I > > > > > enlighten them! > > > > > > > > > > One of the Dutch Resistance members has died. The other is the > father > > >of > > > > > this man, but I can't remember his name and is at home in my > library. > > > > > > > > > > Lambert, Maria & Bertie Kliebisch > > > > > Samarialaan 45 > > > > > 5625 RB Eindoven > > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > Phone: 011.31.40.241.3110 > > > > > > > > > > It is Lambert's father who was with the Dutch Resistance. Lambert > and > > >his > > > > > friend Hennie Borentien are experts on Market Garden and know many > of > > >the > > > > > remaining Resistance fighters from Eindoven to Arnhem. Here's > > >Hennie's > > > > > address. Sorry I don't have his new phone, but Lambert could give > it > > >to > > > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > Hennie and Henriette Boertien > > > > > Jupiter 6 > > > > > 5527 CL Hapert > > > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > > > Best of luck! > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Brian McGuire" > > > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:32:16 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >Kevin, et al - > > > > > >I have had the privilege of hosting scores of visits by veterans > and > > >others > > > > > >to Molesworth the past 8+ years, and several scheduled this year as > > >well. I > > > > > >guess you could say I am a "young" 56 (but feeling older by the day > > >and > > > > > >anticipate moving Stateside next year after a dozen years in > Europe). > > >I > > >had > > > > > >quite an interest in WWII aviation when a kinder, but the interest > > >went > > > > > >dormant. I remember drawing B-17s in study hall in high school > (along > > >with > > > > > >the Spit the most beautiful maching ever to fly), probably why I > now > > >have > > > > > >an > > > > > >interest in aviation art. After retiring following 25 years in the > > >USAF I > > > > > >took a job as a contractor at Molesworth in 1992 and the interest > > >came > > >back > > > > > >with a fury when I found myself in the midst of 8AF country. > American > > > > > >aviation history was written here to a great extent. Molesworth is > > >one > > >of > > > > > >only two former 8AF bases with an American presence now(Alconbury > is > > >the > > > > > >other). There is so much history here that it is impossible NOT to > > >develop > > > > > >an interest. There is an ambiance here unmatched anywhere else in > the > > >world > > > > > >I have been, probably because the English cherish and remember the > > >days > > >of > > > > > >WWII which were simultaneously their darkest and best. I vividly > > >remember > > > > > >the day outside the Molesworth gym when I was jogging and heard the > > > > > >unmistakeable sound of a Spit, and, looking skyward saw it emerge > > >from > > >a > > > > > >cloud, followed a few second later by a Me-109. They proceeded to > > >dogfight > > > > > >for about 10 minutes over the airfield. Must have been a couple of > > >chaps > > > > > >from Duxford playing in the firmament, and I couldn't move until > they > > >were > > > > > >out of sight. A moment always to be remembered, and one you > couldn't > > > > > >experience in the U.S. (airshows can't compare). Every returning > > >veteran > > > > > >that I have talked to has told me they were both surprised and awed > > >by > > >the > > > > > >treatment they received from the British citizens when they > returned. > > >They > > > > > >belong the the British as much or more than they do to the Amerian > > > > > >citizens, > > > > > >both of whom owe more to them than can be repaid. Difference is > that > > >the > > > > > >British realize it more because it was both a common cause and a > > >SHARED > > > > > >experience in 1942-45. > > > > > > > > > > > >By the way, who were the two Dutch Resistance members that escorted > > >you > > > > > >during your Market Garden visit? I have been working a project to > do > > >a > > >book > > > > > >on the Helpers from Holland, Belgium and France (not writing it but > > >making > > > > > >the arrangements) and know quite a few of the Helpers; one, Albert > > >Postma, > > > > > >was evacuted out of Arnheim with the 2,000 surviving (of 6,000) > > >British > > > > > >airborn. > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers from the Motherland. > > > > > > > > > > > >Brian > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: Kevin Pearson > > > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:50 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I enjoyed your comments Lloyd about us young guys (40s and 50s) > > >being > > > > > > > interested in the war. For you vets, I'll tell you my story and > > >how > > >I > > > > > >got > > > > > > > interested since I am a "young" 44. In 5th or 6th grade I ran > > >across > > > > > >books > > > > > > > about the war and was immediately drawn to them, especially the > > >air > > >war > > > > > >in > > > > > > > Europe. Such names as Bud Peaslee, Robert Rosenthal, Gaby > > >Gabreskie, > > > > > >and > > > > > > > others I can recall even to this day. I also distinctly > remember > > > > > >reading > > > > > > > about a plane named Knock Out Dropper from the 303rd at that > age. > > >I > > > > > >started > > > > > > > building models of warbirds and at 14 started my flying lessons. > > >(I > > > > > >could > > > > > > > legally fly planes alone before driving a car alone.) One of my > > > > > > > instructors, Oren Lauer, was waist gunner on a Fort, but he > would > > >never > > > > > >talk > > > > > > > to me about the war, I was just a young snot nosed kid! But I > > >would > > > > > > > overhear him talking to others and that sparked my curiosity > even > > >more. > > > > > >I > > > > > > > started reading every book I could find on the Eighth and joined > > >the > > >8th > > > > > > > AFHS in 1982. In 1991 I met a guy who flew with the 91st and he > > >and > > >I > > > > > >went > > > > > > > to Midland, Texas, and flew on Texas Raiders (Simply > outstanding! > > > > > >Flying > > > > > >on > > > > > > > the Fort was a dream come true, but to watch this 72 year old > man > > >become > > > > > >a > > > > > > > 24 year old bomber pilot again was one of the most remarkable > > >things > > >I > > > > > >have > > > > > > > done in my life!) ) After that I was hooked. In 1991 I became > > > > > >secretary > > > > > >of > > > > > > > the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS and to this > > >day > > > > > >still > > > > > > > publish our chapter's quarterly newsletter - The Rally Point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last three years I have been to 36 of the former 8th AF > > >heavy > > > > > >bomber > > > > > > > and fighter stations in the UK(thanks again Brian for the tour > of > > > > > > > Molesworth!), have been to the Normandy beach head, Schweinfurt > > >and > > >was > > > > > > > given a personal tour of the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Scafer ball > > >bearing > > > > > > > works by its owner, the remains of the Ludendorf Bridge at > > >Remagen, > > >the > > > > > > > Cathedral at Cologne, the sub pens at Keil, the V1 and V2 launch > > >sites > > > > > >at > > > > > > > Calais, and even dug up the reamins of three Forts from the > > >91st/324th > > > > > >BS > > > > > > > lost 16.8.44. Last year I toured all of the bridges associated > > >with > > > > > > > Operation Market Garden. Went all the way from Eindoven to > Arnhem > > >with > > > > > >two > > > > > > > members who had been with the Dutch Resistance at the time. > > >Within > > >the > > > > > >next > > > > > > > year I am going to visit all of the battlefields from the Battle > > >of > > >the > > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the rest of you "young" guys? How did you get > > >interested? > > >I > > > > > >used > > > > > > > to think I was sort of strange because I had such a keen > interest > > >in > > >the > > > > > > > 8th, but the internet changed that. > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 04:32:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:32:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? Message-ID: <89.394fe5f.27defcc8@aol.com> Yes, the bends were the same as divers get. They were possible but not very common at the altitudes we flew. If we got much over 30,000 feet they would become quite common and could cause very serious problems. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 12 16:14:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:14:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AACF5E0.AB196D4C@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... As near as I can recll, the Tokyo tanks were located outboard of the outermost wing tank, between THAT tank and the wingtip. It either ADDED or made up the total load to 1700 gallons, am not certain. (It's been a long time). These "Tokyo" tanks only came with the later model airplanes we received. They were not in the early planes we used. CHeers! BILL HELLER Bill Jones wrote: > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks which > > usually were jettisoned after use. ....... > >................. As the war went > > along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. > > Could you explain what a Tokyo tank was then? I have one of > those maintenence manual sets for the B-17, and it only mentions > the bomb bay tanks... no mention of Tokyo, so I guess I always > incorrectly assumed that the Tokyo tank was the same thing as > the bomb bay tank. The manual I have was probably written prior > to them being used. Where were Tokyo tanks located? > > > Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and I guess > > such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes wonder just > > how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > > I guess this is why so many of the veterans never wanted to talk > about their experiences. I think we are lucky to have this forum > with those who are willing to talk about what happened. > I am one of the "young guys" as per the recent discussion of > interest. I was born in 43 on an air base in Ga, where my father > was a flight instructor, before he went overseas to Molesworth. I > was 2 years old by the time VE day came around, and all I > remember of the war period was the celebration when VE day was > announced. > From that time on, my father never talked much about what > happened over there. I am really grateful to be able to read the > stories of those who are comfortable discussing the topic. I am > always a little hesitant trying to pry info out of people, and I know > some times the questions sound dumb, but I figure that if it gets > people to talk, then it is worth it. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 04:47:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:47:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] TOKYO TANKS Message-ID: <9d.1274b918.27df006f@aol.com> I guess so the B17s could get to Tokyo if they hadn't invented the B29. I don't know how we would have got back though. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 06:06:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:06:14 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: <49.89eaae0.27defa88@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AADB8D6.C5891324@attglobal.net> Well said, Jack. Cheers! HELLER Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, I don't think the tanks collapsed but they were very self sealing. We > have had them shot full of holes regularly but rarely lost much fuel. The d > ice boots we took of before we flew them. Ice was no problem. We went up > and down through the icing levels to fast to accumulate much. When the dicer > boots got hit and damaged they created a real problem flopping in the wind > and affected the airflow over the wing and destroyed the lift. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 14:26:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:26:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude Message-ID: Lloyd: This link talks about high altitude sickness resulting from a lack of oxygen. The bends occur because of elevated levels of nitrogen in the blood stream. The two are unrelated (I think.) Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:21:21 -0500 > >High altitude sickness explained in laymans terms. It is no joke. G > > http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html ><< HighAltitude.url >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 14:33:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:33:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! Message-ID: Making and selling the weathervane did occur to me. And this would be no problem. The problem comes in the artwork for each bomb group and squadron. To do these right, I doubt if anyone would pay the money. I've got about $300 in my weathervane, and about 100 hours, so you can see what the real cost is. I'm sure you could make them in mass, but decorating them takes time. I put like 24 coats of black and gold paint on mine. It's been outside for seven years and it still looks like I just painted it! I used a drawing from the B-17 Pilot's manual, had it blown up on a copy machine to 36 inches, then the Liquid Plasma Torch followed the outline using CNC technology to make the ornament. The emblem, numbers, and letter were all designed by me and cut by me to the specs Robert Keys gave me. It was a fun project! Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Beautiful Weather Vane!! >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:52:09 -0500 > > > Very nice, Kevin. You are obviously a man for all seasons, and >ever in > > view of your direction. Thanks for sharing. G. > > >That is nice. I may try making something like that myself, >although for me it would have to be out of wood. > >A nice brass version would make a nice money making thing that >could be sold in the 303rdbga PX . I just hope that if they do, they >remember to put a triangle C on it. I bought several of those little >B-17 refrigerator magnets that they sell there, and then found out >that they are triangle G planes, 42-97674, WF-A, 305thBG. I was >thinking about using an exacto knife to change the G to a C, but >the WF would be harder. > Anyway, I bet a lot of people would buy a nice weather vane like >that. Next time I go past one of those shops that make the >chicken and pig weather-vanes, I'll have to ask if they could make >one with a B-17. > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 14:34:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:34:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? Message-ID: Spider: I learn something new every day from you guys. Thanks for setting the record straight! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:59:15 -0800 > >KEVIN : >BEING A PILOT OF BOTH BOMBERS AND FIGHTERS WE WERE TOLD IN OUR ALTITUDE >CHAMBER TRAINING THAT WE COULD SUFFER THE BENDS ESPECIALLY IF WE ATE THE >WRONG FOODS WHICH WOULD PRODUCE GAS WITH NITROGEN INCLUDED. > SPIDER >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? > > > > Hi Bill: Being a certified scuba diver, I think I am qualified to talk > > about the bends. I would doubt the bends suffered by the pilot are the >same > > as nitrogen narcosis suffered by scuba divers. Theoretically, it could > > happen if a person had an excess amount of nitrogen in their system, but > > because 17s were unpressurized, the likelyhood of nitrogen narcosis is >very > > unlikely. But I will not say it could never happen - there is an >exception > > to every rule. > > > > Any doctors out there that could tell us for sure? > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Bill Jones" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The bends??? > > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:30:58 -0500 > > > > > > > > > I was reading the narratives for one mission, and it mentioned > > >that one plane had to turn back because the pilot (or co-pilot) was > > >sick with "the bends" . Would this really have been the same > > >kind of bends that scuba divers suffer from, ie nitrogen bubbling > > >from the blood, or was this just a nick-name for gastro-intestinal > > >gas causing a severe stomach ache or chest pains. I've heard from > > >people on other lists that airmen had to be careful about what they > > >ate. > > > Anyway, were the bends suffered by this pilot really the bends, > > >and if so, how common was that? > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 14:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:43:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. In-Reply-To: <3AACF5E0.AB196D4C@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > As near as I can recll, the Tokyo tanks were located outboard of the outermost wing > tank, between THAT tank and the wingtip. Thanks. After others pointed this out to me, I went back and read my manual more carefully, and indeed it did call them Tokyo tanks. In the earlier parts of the manual it refers to them as "wing tanks", but in the section where it refers to installation, it refers to them as Tokyo, so I guess I should have read before asking questions. > It either ADDED or made up the total load to > 1700 gallons, am not certain. (It's been a long time). These "Tokyo" tanks only came > with the later model airplanes we received. They were not in the early planes we used. According to the manual, the B-17F would hold 1700 gal without bombay tanks, and 2110 or 2520 gal, with one or two bomb bay tanks. The manual says that the Tokyo tanks added another 1080 gal, bringing up the total to 2780 without bombay tanks, and 3190 or 3600 with one or two bombay tanks. Almost a 50% increase. The manual said that only the Tokyo tanks were collapsable. The interconnections between the tanks is quite interesting and complicated. I assume that it was the engineers job to figure out how to re-distribute fuel to the remaining engines, if an engine went out? The more I read about the B-17, the more complicated it sounds. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 16:13:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:13:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Silence? Message-ID: <000201c0abe0$d98e9cc0$48914d0c@o3n4f8> Just in case anyone wonders where I come up with these questions, I sit out at my desk in the garage (which, to my amazement is the area of our 10 room house that Mrs. G has absolutely no interest in). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 19:31:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:31:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: <3AACF7A4.98BEEABC@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0abf4$487a04e0$6d914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, I just reread your reply regarding self-sealing fuel tanks. Your description of flak piercing the top of your wing is, if you can forgive this term, poignant. Many times you guys perhaps don't realize how incredibly awesome your words and recollections are. Last night I read this and I had to go sit down alone somewhere. Thats all I will say. Thank you. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > Kevin Pearons ... > > Bomb bay tanks were NOT collapsable - as you mention. I did not use CO2 but > learned later that CO2 capsules WERE used to purge an empty tank. As to B17 > fuel tanks causing an explosion, if hit by enemy fire, it was my observation > (in combat) that when an enemy RAKED the wing of a B17 with his gunfire, the > tank indeed, could and did explode and catch fire. On the other hand, as you > correctly stated, a bullet - or flak - could penetrate a tank and NOT cause it > to flame, burn or explode. MANY times I watched as flak shrapnel PEIRCED my > wing from beneath and came out the top, going right through the self-sealing > tank and causing no problem. It is a funny sight to see this occur. The top of > your wing looks like a calm lake IMMEDIATELY after a heavy rain storm hits, and > the marks on the tope of my wing looked just like those raindrops hitting the > calm lake, as each bit of shrapnel ripped the top of the wing as it exited. > > Cheers! > > BILL HELLER > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Bill: I question your statement about CO2 and that empty tanks were an > > explosion waiting to happen. 17s had collapsable rubber, self-sealing fuel > > tanks that worked in the same manner as baby formula in a baby bottle that > > has a plastic liner. As the fluid is sucked out, the "bladder" collapses > > and no fumes are allowed to form. If anyone disagrees, let me know. I've > > seen these tanks and they are a remarkable invention, not to mention the > > rubber deicer boots. The Japanese did not have self-sealing tanks and that > > is why you see so many Zeros, Kates, and Vals initially explode upon being > > hit by an incindiary round, then followed by a trail of fire. Unless a 17 > > tank received a direct hit by a 20 mm, 30 mm, or 88, the tanks would not > > USUALLY blow up. A standard armor piercing round would simply pass through > > the tank (no oxygen, no fire), and the rubber would then close around the > > hole, preventing great loss of fuel. > > > > I know these are very broad statements, so please give me a little latitude > > guys before sending me any nastygrams. > > Cheers! > > Kevin > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 > > >statistics. > > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 > > > > > >Rich Young ... > > > > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay tanks > > >which > > >usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay > > >tanks had > > >CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not done, > > >an > > >empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the war > > >went > > >along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo tanks. > > > > > >Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war and > > >I guess > > >such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes > > >wonder just > > >how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > >Rich Young wrote: > > > > > > > Bill Heller - > > > > > > > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you > > >were > > > > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these > > >tanks I > > > > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these particular > > > > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced > > >missions > > > > requiring their use as well? > > > > > > > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only imagine > > >a > > > > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > > > > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at steam > > > > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > > > > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing through > > > > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the > > >many > > > > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this air > > >war > > > > in complete reverence. > > > > > > > > Many thanks and regards, > > > > > > > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, for > > > > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff now > > >and > > > > >then just to > > > > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks it > > >was > > > > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other B17s > > >which > > > > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe detection of > > >fuel > > > > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one of > > >those > > > > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my buddies > > > > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. The > > >worst one > > > > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was fearful > > >of flying > > > > >through the debris. > > > > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 17:21:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:21:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude References: Message-ID: <000801c0abe2$12fe7b00$48914d0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, you are corrrect. I copied the wrong URL. The correct one is posted in a recent (3/13/01) message. I notice that you also are a certified scuba diver as well as an accomplished pilot. There are 4 articles dealing with the condition known as DCS (decompression sickness). These deal with nitrogen embolism at altitude, rather than hypoxia. The information may be redundant to your particular needs , but is a good frame of reference for anyone not acquainted with the syndrome. Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude > Lloyd: This link talks about high altitude sickness resulting from a lack > of oxygen. The bends occur because of elevated levels of nitrogen in the > blood stream. The two are unrelated (I think.) > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Altitude > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:21:21 -0500 > > > >High altitude sickness explained in laymans terms. It is no joke. G > > > > http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/higha.html > ><< HighAltitude.url >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 19:47:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:47:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S for Sugar Message-ID: <001901c0abf6$6d5586c0$6d914d0c@o3n4f8> Someone on the ring who was with the 427th described the events following Don Stocktons' death. When my computer went down last month I lost everything I had saved and a lot of return e-mail addresses. I apologize for not remembering the name of the person who wrote to me about John Barker, but I would sure like to get in touch with you again. L. Grant (re: Stocktons' last mission, Kiel, S for Sugar, 1943.) Thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 17:53:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:53:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio silence ? (part two) Message-ID: <001801c0abe6$8c015820$48914d0c@o3n4f8> What operational strictures were placed upon aircraft to aircraft communications during a mission? As an example I will cite the disasterous 1st Ploesti raid. If I have it right, absolute adherence to radio silence between aircraft contributed a great deal to the confusion enroute to and over the target, and was for any practical , or security reasons, completely unnecessary since the opposition was on to the raid nearly from its' inception. It occurs to me ( as I ponder these subjects out in my private "sanctum sanctorum") that it would be extraordinarily difficult to maintain formation integrity and to coordinate bombing operations (et al) without being able to communicate with each other. I will bet even money that you guys will set me straight on this PDQ. I mention the Ploesti Raid only as an example. I realize , different aircraft , different Air Force, and absolutely different tactics involved. I am not an armchair quarterback, but I frequently wonder how generously information was shared between the forces, even when mistakes were made; and how timely, if so, this information was made available to those who could use it. ps the description of my "sanctum" was sent inadvertently incidently. I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. My co-pilot is a very intelligent German Shepherd who understands everything I say.) Cheers to all. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 15:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:41:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitude Decompression Sickness Message-ID: <000801c0abd4$194d80e0$a51b4e0c@o3n4f8> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0ABAA.2D428CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone interested in the subject of DCS ( high altidude nitrogen embolism) aka "the bends" here is a very informative and easy to read site that deals with the problem. I highly recommend taking a few minutes to read these short articles, particularly if you are a pilot that routinely flies above 10,000 ft., or are a pilot who also likes to scuba dive. I am glad this topic was brought up. I have learned something of value as a result. L G. http://www.2pi.com/les/flying/adcs.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0ABAA.2D428CA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Altitude Decompression Sickness.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Altitude Decompression Sickness.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.2pi.com/les/flying/adcs.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.2pi.com/les/flying/adcs.html Modified=2008E06BD2ABC001B1 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0ABAA.2D428CA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 15:57:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (david bacon) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:57:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello heros . . . post list Message-ID: Hello to all 303rd vets and members. My name is David Bacon. I live in Birmingham, Alabama. Some of you may know me already from the Molesworth reunion. My grandfather, Arthur J. Hybert was a pilot for the group, 359th squadron from December 1943 to March 1944. He completed 26 missions with no crew members lost. Most of the time his plane was the Lonesome Polcat, but he flew just about all of them at sometime including many of the oldies that went down on the Ocherscleben mission. His crew picture has been up for sometime now on the 303rd website. I've recently become a life member myself in order to help to remember him, you, and the history that took place with the 303rd in the correct and most accurate way as long as I live. Thanks for letting me be a part of this honorable and historic association. David Bacon _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 16:16:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:16:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: Bill: Thanks for the info. To this day and after studying the 8th AF for 30 years, I can not comprehend what it must have been like to be in an airplane and watch it get torn to shreds! Scares the hell out of me just thinking about it! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 >statistics. >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:21:57 -0800 > >Kevin Pearons ... > >Bomb bay tanks were NOT collapsable - as you mention. I did not use CO2 but >learned later that CO2 capsules WERE used to purge an empty tank. As to B17 >fuel tanks causing an explosion, if hit by enemy fire, it was my >observation >(in combat) that when an enemy RAKED the wing of a B17 with his gunfire, >the >tank indeed, could and did explode and catch fire. On the other hand, as >you >correctly stated, a bullet - or flak - could penetrate a tank and NOT cause >it >to flame, burn or explode. MANY times I watched as flak shrapnel PEIRCED my >wing from beneath and came out the top, going right through the >self-sealing >tank and causing no problem. It is a funny sight to see this occur. The top >of >your wing looks like a calm lake IMMEDIATELY after a heavy rain storm hits, >and >the marks on the tope of my wing looked just like those raindrops hitting >the >calm lake, as each bit of shrapnel ripped the top of the wing as it >exited. > >Cheers! > >BILL HELLER > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Bill: I question your statement about CO2 and that empty tanks were an > > explosion waiting to happen. 17s had collapsable rubber, self-sealing >fuel > > tanks that worked in the same manner as baby formula in a baby bottle >that > > has a plastic liner. As the fluid is sucked out, the "bladder" >collapses > > and no fumes are allowed to form. If anyone disagrees, let me know. >I've > > seen these tanks and they are a remarkable invention, not to mention the > > rubber deicer boots. The Japanese did not have self-sealing tanks and >that > > is why you see so many Zeros, Kates, and Vals initially explode upon >being > > hit by an incindiary round, then followed by a trail of fire. Unless a >17 > > tank received a direct hit by a 20 mm, 30 mm, or 88, the tanks would not > > USUALLY blow up. A standard armor piercing round would simply pass >through > > the tank (no oxygen, no fire), and the rubber would then close around >the > > hole, preventing great loss of fuel. > > > > I know these are very broad statements, so please give me a little >latitude > > guys before sending me any nastygrams. > > Cheers! > > Kevin > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 > > >statistics. > > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:54:01 -0800 > > > > > >Rich Young ... > > > > > > In the beginning we did not have Tokyo tanks, hence the bomb bay >tanks > > >which > > >usually were jettisoned after use. I did hear that later some bomb bay > > >tanks had > > >CO2 cannisters used to purge the tank of any fumes. When this was not >done, > > >an > > >empty tank is a bomb awaiting the first shell to blow it ... As the >war > > >went > > >along, bomb bay tanks were no longer used and we then had the Tokyo >tanks. > > > > > >Yes, some of the scenes were quite horrid, but, we knew we were in war >and > > >I guess > > >such is sort of acceptable in that vein ... Looking back, I sometimes > > >wonder just > > >how such was acceptable ... but ... it was. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > >Rich Young wrote: > > > > > > > Bill Heller - > > > > > > > > Thank you for your reply to my question of fuel odors. You state you > > >were > > > > concerned especially when carrying bomb bay tanks. When using these > > >tanks I > > > > presume your bomb load was reduced to some degree. Were these >particular > > > > aircraft without Tokyo tanks or were there some extreme distanced > > >missions > > > > requiring their use as well? > > > > > > > > As for seeing a B17 blow up in front of your aircraft I can only >imagine > > >a > > > > very small twinge of the reality of your experience. When viewing > > > > gun-camera films, especially those I've seen of fighters firing at >steam > > > > engines and such resulting in tremendous explosions, I shudder even > > > > watching these and wonder how anyone could have survived passing >through > > > > that field of debris. And of course this is but one hazard among the > > >many > > > > you had to chance, making me hold you and all who experienced this >air > > >war > > > > in complete reverence. > > > > > > > > Many thanks and regards, > > > > > > > > >You are quite correct anent not smelling fuel in the B17, however, >for > > > > >JUST THIS VERY REASON I used to pick my mask off and take a whiff >now > > >and > > > > >then just to > > > > >SEE if we may have a fuel situation. When we carried bomb bay tanks >it > > >was > > > > >always a concern also. However, from what I witnessed with other >B17s > > >which > > > > >were hit and exploded almost immediately, I do not believe >detection of > > >fuel > > > > >fumes would be a concern unless you were still flying and NOT one >of > > >those > > > > >unfortunate ones who got a direct hit. I am sure most all of my >buddies > > > > >witnessed more than ONE B17 blow up right in their line of sight. >The > > >worst one > > > > >I experienced was ahead of me in my very early days and I was >fearful > > >of flying > > > > >through the debris. > > > > > > > > >BILL HELLER > > > > > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 16:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:23:40 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. Message-ID: Jack: I have heard others say the deicer boots were taken off once in theater. I've been to England many times and at different times of the year, and it would seem to me that ice would have been a real problem. I guess the problems the boots caused when hit offset the danger of not having them, huh? I don't know, Jack, it just seems to me ice should have been a problem and I still don't understand why these were taken off. You say you climbed too quickly for ice to form. What about coming back from a mission late in the day as the temp. drops and you're flying through a freezing rain. What did you do, if anything? I'm not trying to be a smart alek, just have a real curiosity. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 >statistics. >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:22:32 EST > >Kevin, I don't think the tanks collapsed but they were very self sealing. >We >have had them shot full of holes regularly but rarely lost much fuel. The d >ice boots we took of before we flew them. Ice was no problem. We went up >and down through the icing levels to fast to accumulate much. When the >dicer >boots got hit and damaged they created a real problem flopping in the wind >and affected the airflow over the wing and destroyed the lift. >Jack Rencher > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 18:55:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:55:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin Note - Replies to email Message-ID: <3AAE0AB7.10136.39D9E7@localhost> I need some help from all of you. When you reply to a message, PLEASE do not quote the entire previous message. Only include what is needed so your reply makes sense. Before you hit the SEND button, look ever the message and look at what you are sending to 130 people. If some of the text looks like this: > > >of > > >the > > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE delete it before you send it. Our digest version is almost unreadable with all the quoted and requoted text. I'd be happy to send the latest digest to anyone who wants to see what I mean. Please do not reply to this message to the list. If you have question, contact me directly at glm@303rdbga.com Thanks for your cooperation. We really have a valuable resource here. Lets all help keep it as clean and concise as possible. Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 20:43:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:43:29 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Don't Believe Your E-Mail Message-ID: <010001c0abff$29ea3940$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Thought I should forward this to y'all just to set the record straight. Brian M. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tucker, Kenneth To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:36 PM Subject: Don't Believe Your E-Mail > St. Louis Post-Dispatch > March 10, 2001 > Don't Believe Your E-Mail > The Marines didn't show more respect to Bush than Clinton > By Harry Levins > * If the Marines disrespected Clinton, it would hurt their honor - not the > former president's. > In recent weeks, a pointed e-mail message has ricocheted around the > Internet. Perhaps a dozen readers sent copies to me. It says: > "CNN this morning showed George W. Bush leaving HM-1. The Marine at the > front step saluted. President Bush returned it, and, as he walked away, the > Marine executed a right face to stand facing GW's back - something that was > missing in eight years of the Clinton presidency. > "The traditional Marine Corps mark of respect was rendered to the new > president. That one goes back to the days in the rigging, when the Marine > orderly to the ship's captain always faced toward the captain, no matter his > direction of movement, to be ready to receive an order. > "Leave it to the Marines to speak so loudly without ever uttering a word." > Snappy little story. It has only two problems: > * "It's absolutely false," says Staff Sgt. Keith Milks of the public affairs > office at Marine Corps headquarters. > * If it was true, the Marines would see it as an insult to their own honor, > not to Bill Clinton. Milks said crew members of the presidential helicopter > "are chosen for their professionalism." > In a phone interview, Milks said crew members of HM-1 - Marine One, the > presidential helicopter - had followed the same protocol with Clinton that > they used for all presidents, to wit: > The Marine at the bottom of the steps salutes the debarking president. As > soon as the salute is returned, the Marine does a right face to face the > president's back. The Marine holds that position until the president "has > moved a comfortable distance away," Milks said. Which isn't to say that > military people by and large loved Clinton, or even liked him. > Early in Clinton's presidency, he visited the carrier Theodore Roosevelt. > There, within earshot of the press, sailors wisecracked about Clinton's > draft evasion and his support for gays in uniform. > The news reports vastly embarrassed the Navy. I suspect that as the stuff > ran downhill, life aboard the Roosevelt grew extremely unhappy. > A few months later, Air Force Maj. Gen. Harold Campbell called Clinton "a > gay-loving, draft-dodging, pot-smoking womanizer," or words to that effect. > Before long, Gen. Campbell was Mr. Campbell. He got a stiff letter of > reprimand that axed his career. > Campbell could have got worse. Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military > Justice says in part, "Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words > against the President ... shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." > Which makes sense. The Constitution says the president is the commander in > chief, and no military force can tolerate insubordination toward its chief. > The stakes - life and death - are just too high. Almost everybody who ever > served in uniform got at least one direct order from a certified jerk. And > guess what? They swallowed hard, snapped off a salute, said, "Yes, sir," and > carried out the order. Usually, they carried it out crisply and > professionally. Just as the Marine at the foot of the step invariably - and > crisply, and professionally - saluted Clinton, then executed a smartly done > right face. > The Marine wasn't honoring Bill Clinton, draft-dodging pot smoker. > The Marine was honoring the military way, and himself. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 21:36:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:36:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitude Decompression Sickness In-Reply-To: <000801c0abd4$194d80e0$a51b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > For anyone interested in the subject of DCS ( high altidude nitrogen > embolism) aka "the bends" here is a very informative and easy to read site > that deals with the problem. .... Very interesting. This confirms that the "bends" are indeed possible with high altitude flying, however, I still wonder just how common this was, and I also wonder if regular old gastrointestinal "gas", was also given the name "bends" back in WWII. The comments about being warned in training that eating gas producing foods would lead to the bends suggests this, since this would almost certainly not be the "real" bends, but was probably pain (likely extreme pain) caused by the expansion of gastrointestinal gas. Also, the fact that in the case I read about (which was the Oct 3 1944 mission BTW, when a 360thBS copilot suffered from the "bends"), that particular co- pilot flew the next 3 missions. I really can't imagine them letting him fly again so soon if he had the condition described in the article, although the flight surgeons possibly didn't know as much about the condition back then, or perhaps the symptoms went away when they decended. In any event, very interesting. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 22:21:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:21:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suppy and Requisition Message-ID: <002101c0ac0b$e4a96ba0$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> This question is for the Mt. Man. Sir, did each squadron have its' own supply depot, or was supply a function of the Group HQ.? Did you guys have a "secret" underground conduit for obtaining badly needed parts ( I was an enlisted man too)? How many men were typically assigned to a supply outfit? And , anything else you can think to add that I forgot to ask. Thumps-up. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 22:08:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:08:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <001701c0ac0a$148fe940$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> I asked a question like this last year. I was also curious why some of the exaust heat from four stout P&W's could not be ducted to provide either de-icing heat to the wings, or , some (however pathetic) warmth to the crew. Both J. Rencher and B. Heller addressed this, but I have lost all those responses (ibid). Obviously, de-icing boots were not an operational necessity, re: thousands of missions flown without them. If what I have read about meterological conditions conducive to icing is correct, it does seem rather odd that this was not considered a major impediment to flight given the load factors and the notorious English weather ( :-) ). On this subject, did Boeing AC do anything to alleviate the incredibly harsh temperatures that beset the aircrews, or was it all left up to the clothiers? Somebody will straighten me out on this too. Very best to all, and Welcome David. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > Jack: I have heard others say the deicer boots were taken off once in > theater. I've been to England many times and at different times of the > year, and it would seem to me that ice would have been a real problem. I > guess the problems the boots caused when hit offset the danger of not having > them, huh? > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 22:49:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:49:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin Note - Replies to email References: <3AAE0AB7.10136.39D9E7@localhost> Message-ID: <002d01c0ac0f$eefcb680$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> Do I hear pleading? I am a green pea computer whiz too, so it took me twice as long to figure out what Gary was talking about ( hopefully, not three times as long). I hope I don't screw things up worse, when you hit "reply" a separate little screen shows up with a blinking vertical line beginning the message you are typing, below this is the message (and perhaps many messages unrelated) that you are responding to. You can edit everything that is not germaine to your reply by going to the bottom of the little frame and by holding down the left key on your mouse and drawing a vertical line upward, all text not relevant to your reply will be highlighted in black. When you take your finger off the left button, everything you don't want in the message is highlighted. If you hit "delete" on your keyboard the extraneous text is erased from your out-going message, and only your timely comments appear on the ring. Now, for all this, you guys that are way ahead of the learning curve can be a very large help to some of us green-peas and save Gary a heck of a lot of grief by not assuming everyone that owns a computer knows what the hell he, or, she is doing. The ugly side of this is that it could all be me causing this. Then I have the unhappy prospect of confronting the fact that some of the best bomber pilots in history can find out where I live. Love you guys. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Admin Note - Replies to email > I need some help from all of you. > When you reply to a message, PLEASE do not quote the entire > previous message. Only include what is needed so your reply > makes sense. Before you hit the SEND button, look ever the > message and look at what you are sending to 130 people. If some > of the text looks like this: > > > >of > > > >the > > > > > > > > Bulge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE delete it before you send it. Our digest version is almost > unreadable with all the quoted and requoted text. I'd be happy to > send the latest digest to anyone who wants to see what I mean. > > Please do not reply to this message to the list. If you have question, > contact me directly at glm@303rdbga.com > > Thanks for your cooperation. We really have a valuable resource > here. Lets all help keep it as clean and concise as possible. > > Thanks, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 22:55:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:55:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Altitude Decompression Sickness References: Message-ID: <003501c0ac10$c2dea800$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> Questions like the one you posed, Mr. Jones, can actually cause people to want to learn something. High five & thumbs-up. Well done. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Altitude Decompression Sickness > > > > For anyone interested in the subject of DCS ( high altidude nitrogen > > embolism) aka "the bends" here is a very informative and easy to read site > > that deals with the problem. .... > > Very interesting. > This confirms that the "bends" are indeed possible with high > altitude flying, however, I still wonder just how common this was, > and I also wonder if regular old gastrointestinal "gas", was also > given the name "bends" back in WWII. The comments about being > warned in training that eating gas producing foods would lead to the > bends suggests this, since this would almost certainly not be the > "real" bends, but was probably pain (likely extreme pain) caused > by the expansion of gastrointestinal gas. Also, the fact that in the > case I read about (which was the Oct 3 1944 mission BTW, when > a 360thBS copilot suffered from the "bends"), that particular co- > pilot flew the next 3 missions. I really can't imagine them letting > him fly again so soon if he had the condition described in the > article, although the flight surgeons possibly didn't know as much > about the condition back then, or perhaps the symptoms went > away when they decended. > In any event, very interesting. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 23:38:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:38:47 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: Message-ID: <3AAEAF86.EDEB5985@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Of course, the deicing boots were needed for the trip(s) over to the UK, however, DUE TO MAINTENANCE they were removed in theatre. It would have been a horrendous problem to maintain the boots which would have come home with many holes in them after missions. It was better to 'gamble" on the effect, if any, of icing on the wings during a mission. After all, you could not fly in icing cloud very long and STILL have a bomber attack FORMATION! You had to see each other to fly in formation and THAT is the manner in which we attacked. Cheers! BILL HELLER Kevin Pearson wrote: > Jack: I have heard others say the deicer boots were taken off once in > theater. I've been to England many times and at different times of the > year, and it would seem to me that ice would have been a real problem. I > guess the problems the boots caused when hit offset the danger of not having > them, huh? > > I don't know, Jack, it just seems to me ice should have been a problem and I > still don't understand why these were taken off. You say you climbed too > quickly for ice to form. What about coming back from a mission late in the > day as the temp. drops and you're flying through a freezing rain. What did > you do, if anything? I'm not trying to be a smart alek, just have a real > curiosity. > Kevin > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 > >statistics. > >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:22:32 EST > > > >Kevin, I don't think the tanks collapsed but they were very self sealing. > >We > >have had them shot full of holes regularly but rarely lost much fuel. The d > >ice boots we took of before we flew them. Ice was no problem. We went up > >and down through the icing levels to fast to accumulate much. When the > >dicer > >boots got hit and damaged they created a real problem flopping in the wind > >and affected the airflow over the wing and destroyed the lift. > >Jack Rencher > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 23:40:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:40:38 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: <001701c0ac0a$148fe940$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AAEAFF6.2ED6167E@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... We had glycol heaters for the crew. Never worked well enough so we had electrically heated suits as well. When the electrical lines to these were shot out, THEY did not work either. CHeers! BILL HELLER Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I asked a question like this last year. I was also curious why some of the > exaust heat from four stout P&W's could not be ducted to provide either > de-icing heat to the wings, or , some (however pathetic) warmth to the crew. > Both J. Rencher and B. Heller addressed this, but I have lost all those > responses (ibid). > Obviously, de-icing boots were not an operational necessity, re: thousands > of missions flown without them. If what I have read about meterological > conditions conducive to icing is correct, it does seem rather odd that this > was not considered a major impediment to flight given the load factors and > the notorious English weather ( :-) ). On this subject, did Boeing AC do > anything to alleviate the incredibly harsh temperatures that beset the > aircrews, or was it all left up to the clothiers? Somebody will straighten > me out on this too. > Very best to all, and Welcome David. Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > > > Jack: I have heard others say the deicer boots were taken off once in > > theater. I've been to England many times and at different times of the > > year, and it would seem to me that ice would have been a real problem. I > > guess the problems the boots caused when hit offset the danger of not > having > > them, huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 13 23:54:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:54:57 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd in the garage !! Message-ID: <01d201c0ac19$027d4d60$5a1d7ad5@n0i6c5> <, I sit out at my desk in the garage > Well, tis better than sitting in the 'dog house' Lloyd. LOL Luv, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 00:34:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:34:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd in the garage !! References: <01d201c0ac19$027d4d60$5a1d7ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <002901c0ac1e$8625e280$6b904d0c@o3n4f8> Dear Moofy, it is the dog house. My C/P is Zooey, Left-tennant Zooey"Mad Dog" Grant. ( send you a picture when I get the scanner going again). Rescued from the Polk County Florida POW camp Aug. (98). Thoroughly checked out in the right seat of Nissan P/up, and #1 security in hostile airports. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Moofy To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd in the garage !! > <, I sit out > at my desk in the garage > > > Well, tis better than sitting in the 'dog house' Lloyd. LOL > Luv, > Moofy > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 01:55:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:55:27 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. References: <001701c0ac0a$148fe940$bb904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00c201c0ac29$d9ccfb20$3ef833cf@richards> Electric heated suits were used and caused serious burns because of poor design,Cockpit heaters were installed and removed because of fire danger from etelene glycol fluid used in heaters. The P51 which I flew on my second tour had an naturally warm cockpit.The P38 was very cold because they removed the cockpit heaters for the prestated reason. I have heard this from former P38 pilots at the 364th fighter group where I was assigned when I flew in the 1st Scouting force with Bud Peasley. They said that they got so cold that they had to be lifted from the cockpit when they returned from a mission . Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > I asked a question like this last year. I was also curious why some of the > exaust heat from four stout P&W's could not be ducted to provide either > de-icing heat to the wings, or , some (however pathetic) warmth to the crew. > Both J. Rencher and B. Heller addressed this, but I have lost all those > responses (ibid). > Obviously, de-icing boots were not an operational necessity, re: thousands > of missions flown without them. If what I have read about meterological > conditions conducive to icing is correct, it does seem rather odd that this > was not considered a major impediment to flight given the load factors and > the notorious English weather ( :-) ). On this subject, did Boeing AC do > anything to alleviate the incredibly harsh temperatures that beset the > aircrews, or was it all left up to the clothiers? Somebody will straighten > me out on this too. > Very best to all, and Welcome David. Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Enemy fighter tactics and B-17 vs B-24 statistics. > > > > Jack: I have heard others say the deicer boots were taken off once in > > theater. I've been to England many times and at different times of the > > year, and it would seem to me that ice would have been a real problem. I > > guess the problems the boots caused when hit offset the danger of not > having > > them, huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >303rd-Talk mailing list > > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 02:54:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:54:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs References: <20010313230617.C9F09536E5@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <002001c0ac32$0cb7faa0$73bb9ace@mjpmtman> Sorry this is so long winded. - hope I have answered some of your questions. > Message: 16 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suppy and Requisition > This question is for the Mt. Man... did each squadron have its' own > supply depot, .? Did you guys have > a "secret" underground conduit for obtaining badly needed How many men were typically assigned to a supply outfit? > Message: 17 [ sender as above] . On this subject, did Boeing AC do anything to alleviate the incredibly harsh temperatures that beset the > aircrews, or was it all left up to the clothiers? Somebody will straighten ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LLOYD--The A/C Supply of the 444th Sub-Depot furnished ALL supplies for the field.- Each squadron had its own clothing supply [ Aircrew got the flying gear from the A/ C Supply]. Each BS had Tech Supply and it was usually a Crew cheif that picked up the parts from A/C Supply for his plane. We always figured the the crew chief had the least to do so he acted as parts runner. [Probably get some reaction from that statement!!] Yes we had a problem with parts [a shortage that is] especially when we arrived in Oct. of '42. This was solved by 6-7 6X 6s [Studebaker gave the least trouble] going on a "Moonlight Requistion" tour. They went to every depot in England they could think of. M/Sgt Jake Ruefer [27 1/2 years of serviiced when he came overseas with us] was the one in charge. He was in one depot and ask for an outer wing panel. Being told they had none in stosk he ask permission to look around. He found 6 boxes [2 in a box??] "Load up 3 - they don't have any they won't miss three. After we got established the procedure was a little different. We went to T/Sgt Essock in [Reverse] Lend-Lease. when we couldn't get starters - the British sent us all we wanted -sealed cans with waxed-paper covered starter inside. British Spark Plugs were authorized for use in R-1820 -97 and -67 Engines.. The exact number of poersonell "authorized" I can't tell you. The early flight suits were heavy B-4 Jacket [Think the B-1 was the short collar mechanics jacket ] leather sheep skin with the high belted collar and "Blue Baby Buntings' underneath. Cotton I think and reminded one of long-handles.--They were wired. The later ones [according to my 55+ year old note book were Jacket Assy - Flying, E. H. Type F-2 --Jacket- outer type F-2 E.H. Flying suit. Listed also is an Insert -Trouser Waist -- Insert-E.H. Shoe for type F-2 --Interchangeable with Type F-3 Flying Suit.---Insert Jacket Jacket- Outer---Mask, Oxygen - type.All items in USAAF Supply Class 13.[[E.H. =elictrical heated]. The suits were Olive drab, insulated and the heating element was evidently in the "insert" or inner "layer. [an air crewman couild tell you better] As for the actual organization I have a history of the 444th prepared by Mel McCoy engineering officer. He was at a 444th reunion in Grand Island NE..[ I arranged the first one in 1990] and the 7 of us helped with his notes. [ I think Capt Joseph Freedman (Supply Officer) and I were the only A/C Supply there] It was sent to Harry Gobrecht for his book. Mel's paper lists all personell and the MOS number [Job]. The site's personnel roster list the MOS.-- Don't know if there is a list of the MOS #.- If you woiuld like the 444th history and/or the MOS Nos I'd be glad to mail them to you ---if I had your address.-------MAURICE From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 04:00:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:00:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs References: <20010313230617.C9F09536E5@pairlist.net> <002001c0ac32$0cb7faa0$73bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <001601c0ac3b$67a21fa0$8ab34d0c@o3n4f8> Well, Maurice Mountain Man Paulk, you probably didn't think this kind of information was important, did you? I sincerely appreciate all the things I have learned from the flight crews, but none of them have been able to fill in the little "unimportant" minutia. It wasn't their job to know. But it was YOUR job to know. It may not be important to you, Mr. Paulk, but the information you just passed on is invaluable to me. Thank you, and I sincerely mean it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs > Sorry this is so long winded. - hope I have answered some of your questions. > > Message: 16 > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suppy and Requisition > > This question is for the Mt. Man... did each squadron have its' own > > supply depot, .? Did you guys have > a "secret" underground conduit for > obtaining badly needed How many men were typically assigned to a supply > outfit? > > Message: 17 [ sender as above] > . On this subject, did Boeing AC do anything to alleviate the incredibly > harsh temperatures that beset the > aircrews, or was it all left up to the > clothiers? Somebody will straighten > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > LLOYD--The A/C Supply of the 444th Sub-Depot furnished ALL supplies for the > field.- Each squadron had its own clothing supply [ Aircrew got the flying > gear from the A/ C Supply]. Each BS had Tech Supply and it was usually a > Crew cheif that picked up the parts from A/C Supply for his plane. We always > figured the the crew chief had the least to do so he acted as parts runner. > [Probably get some reaction from that statement!!] > > Yes we had a problem with parts [a shortage that is] especially when we > arrived in Oct. of '42. This was solved by 6-7 6X 6s [Studebaker gave the > least trouble] going on a "Moonlight Requistion" tour. They went to every > depot in England they could think of. M/Sgt Jake Ruefer [27 1/2 years of > serviiced when he came overseas with us] was the one in charge. He was in > one depot and ask for an outer wing panel. Being told they had none in stosk > he ask permission to look around. He found 6 boxes [2 in a box??] "Load up > 3 - they don't have any they won't miss three. After we got established the > procedure was a little different. We went to T/Sgt Essock in [Reverse] > Lend-Lease. when we couldn't get starters - the British sent us all we > wanted -sealed cans with waxed-paper covered starter inside. British Spark > Plugs were authorized for use in R-1820 -97 and -67 Engines.. The exact > number of poersonell "authorized" I can't tell you. > > The early flight suits were heavy B-4 Jacket [Think the B-1 was the short > collar mechanics jacket ] leather sheep skin with the high belted collar and > "Blue Baby Buntings' underneath. Cotton I think and reminded one of > long-handles.--They were wired. The later ones [according to my 55+ year old > note book were Jacket Assy - Flying, E. H. Type F-2 --Jacket- outer type > F-2 E.H. Flying suit. Listed also is an Insert -Trouser Waist -- > Insert-E.H. Shoe for type F-2 --Interchangeable with Type F-3 Flying > Suit.---Insert Jacket Jacket- Outer---Mask, Oxygen - type.All items in USAAF > Supply Class 13.[[E.H. =elictrical heated]. The suits were Olive drab, > insulated and the heating element was evidently in the "insert" or inner > "layer. [an air crewman couild tell you better] > > As for the actual organization I have a history of the 444th prepared by Mel > McCoy engineering officer. He was at a 444th reunion in Grand Island E..[ I > arranged the first one in 1990] and the 7 of us helped with his notes. [ I > think Capt Joseph Freedman (Supply Officer) and I were the only A/C Supply > there] It was sent to Harry Gobrecht for his book. Mel's paper lists all > personell and the MOS number [Job]. The site's personnel roster list the > MOS.-- Don't know if there is a list of the MOS #.- If you woiuld like the > 444th history and/or the MOS Nos I'd be glad to mail them to you ---if I had > your address.-------MAURICE > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 04:33:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:33:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Who bends not his ear... Message-ID: <002001c0ac3f$fc37b400$8ab34d0c@o3n4f8> John Donne, "MeditationXVII" Who bends not his ear to any bell which on any occassion rings? But,who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world? No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manner of thy friends, or of thine own were. Any mans' death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and , therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Gentlemen, friends, and old soldiers; with this tribute I leave you. Your kindness, and understanding will not be forgotten, nor your unconquerable courage and message of hope, and remembrance. God Bless You All. Lloyd Grant, SOA 427th. March 14, 2001. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 12:14:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:14:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs In-Reply-To: <002001c0ac32$0cb7faa0$73bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > LLOYD--The A/C Supply of the 444th Sub-Depot furnished ALL supplies for the > field.- Each squadron had its own clothing supply [ Aircrew got the flying > gear from the A/ C Supply]. Each BS had Tech Supply and it was usually a > Crew cheif that picked up the parts from A/C Supply for his plane. We always > figured the the crew chief had the least to do so he acted as parts runner. > [Probably get some reaction from that statement!!] Where does the "Equipment Branch" fit into all this? My father saved a picture of the equipment branch, and I was curious what they did, and whether they were part of the squadron or group. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 13:53:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:53:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bicycles? Message-ID: In many of the pictures I've seen of Molesworth, there are usually a couple bicycles parked by the buildings. I had assumed that these must have just been privately owned bicycles. However, yesterday, when reading through the diary on my microfilm, the person who wrote the diary (this was at the very early stage, when the 303rd first got to Molesworth) said that bicycles were the only way to get around, and that the Squadron had been issued 62 bicycles, but only 40 of them worked properly. This suggests that the bicycles were military property. So the question is, who got the bicycles? Did rank rule, and the privates had to walk? Were the bicycles issued to specific people, or did each barracks have a few of them that were used by everyone? How did you avoid getting them stolen? I know this question is a little off the normal topics, but it might help us understand what life was like there. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 14:39:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:39:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <2f.12416f1d.27e0dcac@aol.com> maurice paulk. please send to me; donald o. "SPEC" campen,jr. 7603 hillside avenue , richmond,va. 23229-5923 thanks. spec a member From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 14:44:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:44:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bicycles? Message-ID: <5b.1324746c.27e0ddba@aol.com> when we left molesworth they loaded about 100 bikes in our bombbay to bring back to states. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 14:54:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:54:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th Air Force Invite - Seattle Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1DF3A@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> I wanted to extend an invitation to all 303rd BG members who are or will be in the Seattle area in the later part of this month. Col. Mel Schulstad (303rd BG) has been very active in our chapter. Look forward to seeing you. > Our next meeting will be held on Saturday, March 31st at 11:00 a.m. > The featured speaker will be former B-24 pilot Milford Kindley who among > other things flew over that troubled spot in Romanina called Ploesti. > > NEW "Permanent Meeting Place"; The Washington Air National Guard > has a great complex at the Northwest corner of Boeing field (please see map). > They have generously offered their classrooms to us. Its about three quarters > of a mile from our old meeting place at the Museum of Flight. > Address: 6736 Ellis Ave. South. Seattle Washington > > On the horizon (June)... I have spoken to the Paine field folks about doing a combination > tour of a B-52 & ME-262's located up in Everett. This seems like a great deal > for us to be hosted by them. It does depend on how many of you want to do this tour though. > I suggest we have a minimum number of chapter members (15+) and do a 8th AFHS > picnic after the tours of these two legendary aircraft concludes. Also we have been asked > to attend the McCord AFB & Olympic Flight Museum's Airshows the first two weekends > in June. I hope some of you will want to come and see the vintage and new military aircraft > and maybe talk to some young folks. Last year two of our members were treated to a "private" > tour of the B-1 bomber. > > > Contact me with any questions. God bless. > > Greg Pierce > > Tel: 206-662-7078, > E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 15:33:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:33:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs Message-ID: Up in the nose with the Norden between your knees it was always toasty warm....funny thing, though, it always got colder the closer you got to the I.P. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 16:06:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:06:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #202 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <20010314.100634.-426141.0.billrunnels@juno.com> I remember it just the other way. It was cold up to the I.P. then it got warm and you turned down the heat.. HA Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 17:01:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:01:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010314.110119.-409453.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill Jones, Do any of your father's records indicate the approximate distance from the I. P. to the target on an average run? Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:03:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:03:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello heros . . . post list In-Reply-To: "david bacon" 's message of Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:57:12 -0600 Message-ID: <12882-3AAFEAA4-1091@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> David Bacon Your grandfather was a fine officer and a great pilot. We were in the 359th at the same time. Although I was primarily a navigator with the Stoulil crew, I did fly one mission with Lt Hybert to Frankfurt, Germany. Deep in France on the way in we lost an engine.So we turned around and flew back alone. At the French coast we lost another engine so we dropped our bombs. I gave Lt. Hybert a course to the closest airfield in England which happened to be a grass field fighter base. With the crew in crash position in the radio room, he made a perfect landing. We were the first B-17 to land at that base since the war started. Three 303rd crews landed there that day. That night they sent a plane from Molesworth to pick us up. Unfortunately, I never saw your grandfather again. Soon after our crew was sent off to the 305th to train as a pff crew. We finished up on D- day. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:06:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:06:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: Bill L Runnels 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:01:15 -0600 Message-ID: <12889-3AAFEB6E-167@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Runnels The bomb run averaged about 40 miles give or take a few. If youhad a head wind it seemed about 100 miles. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:06:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:06:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: <20010314.110119.-409453.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: > Bill Jones, Do any of your father's records indicate the approximate > distance from the I. P. to the target on an average run? > Bill Runnels > I have maps for about a half dozen of the missions. They don't have distance on them, but they have time. I just checked three of them, one is 7 minutes, one is 15 minutes, and one is 16 minutes. I think the 15 minute run was more typical of the ones I looked at. I guess if you could guess at the speed they were going, you could figure out the distance. What would be a typical speed? Perhaps 185 MPH? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:18:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:18:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:06:44 -0500 Message-ID: <12884-3AAFEE52-804@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Jones Fifteen and 16 minute bomb runs were not conducive to a long life. That and 360s over the target. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:23:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:23:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:06:44 -0500 Message-ID: <12885-3AAFEF68-686@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Jones If you have a real map you can figure out the distance. There is a scale on the side of the map. It is in nautical miles. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:29:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:29:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested In-Reply-To: William Heller 's message of Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:09:17 -0800 Message-ID: <12884-3AAFF0CA-817@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Brian and Bill I'll give you something more tragic than not mentioing WW II in the history books. The present day Air Force knows little about the WW !! 8th Air Force. Except the people stationed at Molesworth, thanks to Brian. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:40:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:40:22 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010314.164023.-393451.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Thanks Bill and Hal. I just couldn't remember for sure but thought it was about l5 minutes or approximately 50 miles. The 7 minute run seems short to get everything done but the designated target and flak may have made it necessary. They kept the time/distance from the I.P. to the target as short as possible since we were the most vulnerable at that time. Thanks again. Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 14 22:45:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:45:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010314.164517.-393451.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, I think the average speed would be closer to 165 mph on the B-17. As Hal stated, the wind would have an effect. Some of our pilot friends would know better than I. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 00:17:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:17:52 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's C/P Message-ID: <003501c0ace5$60f60cc0$d2287ad5@n0i6c5> I will keep you to that Lloyd !! Looking forward to seeing your C/P Zooey as soon as you have your scanner up and running. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 00:43:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:43:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: <12885-3AAFEF68-686@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:06:44 -0500 Message-ID: > Bill Jones If you have > a real map you can figure out the distance. There is a scale on the side > of the map. It is in nautical miles. Hal Susskind I started to respond that the maps I have didn't have this distance scale, but I decided to look one more time, and this time I found it. I never noticed that before. One of the maps I looked at is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/M14mapgr.jpg which is the 3/14/44 Minden mission. You can see the scale you referred to to the left. Best I could measure, the distance between the IP and Tar was about 45 miles, which agrees with what you said pretty well. The IP time was 15:01 and the Tar time was 15:16 . 45 miles/15 min = 180mph , which seems to make sense. I found a few more of the maps that had times in the 12-15 min range. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 00:50:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:50:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's C/P References: <003501c0ace5$60f60cc0$d2287ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <002301c0ace9$e11b6400$beb34d0c@o3n4f8> Moofy, I will be taking a leave from the web ring on March 18th. I would like to stay in touch. Here is my e-mail address if you care to give me a jingle: palidin@worldnet.att.net. I will give your regards to my C/P when I go out to the garage/doghouse. Cheers. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Moofy To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's C/P > I will keep you to that Lloyd !! > Looking forward to seeing your C/P Zooey as soon as you have your scanner up > and running. > Cheers, > Moofy > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:26:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:26:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] EQUIPMENT BRANCH Message-ID: <001101c0acef$0843dbc0$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> That's a knew on on me. What "level" --Squadron, - command ? As for Equipment -- I'll quote from Mel McCoy's report - reverring to A/C Supply -- 'They accepted parts requisitioins from any base unit for any part listed in any of the twenty odd classes of Air Corps Material." Some of thes classes had sub-divisions for example -- 03-F - which included Valve Assy , CO2. - will substitue for A-12 & A-17 Extinguisher /// 03I-- Valve Assy, fuel////// 05-D - Adapter Assy - Supercharger Tach drive, typeVI, Spec.27431 Among the classes was a class for landing field equipment. Therefore I would say that A/C Supply filled the bill in its entirety.. More MOSs are listed on the Web --In the "search" box type ---MOS--- Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:32:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:32:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] OOPS - I FORGOT--- Message-ID: <001701c0acef$caa13e60$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> BILL JONES-- Is it possible that your father was refering to the Squadron's Tech Supply. They would be the ones that were responsible for seeing that parts were aquired foir each Crew chief. Maybe there is a chrew chief out there that can answere that question . . Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:17:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:17:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010314.191731.-137581.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, thanks for sharing the Minden Map. I havn't seen one of those in over fifty years. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:42:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:42:23 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bicycles Message-ID: <001d01c0acf1$2f049860$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> They may have been military but they were British. The first time I rode the Supply 's bike I had a problem--NO CAOSTER BRAKE and I hit the wrong lever and went head first over the handle bars.!!!! SPEC Campen --- Mel's report will be in the mail tomorrow --if I get up in time to take a nap!!!!! . Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:26:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:26:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: Bill, Our indicated airspeed was supposed to be 150 MPH. At 25,000feet in no wind conditions our ground speed then would be225 MPH or so. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 01:59:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:59:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20.1353be41.27e17c06@aol.com> --part1_20.1353be41.27e17c06_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: Hope you are feeling better. Glad to hear for you. Brooklyn Bill --part1_20.1353be41.27e17c06_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal:
  Hope you are feeling better. Glad to hear for you.
                                                                   Brooklyn
Bill --part1_20.1353be41.27e17c06_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 03:24:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:24:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: <20010314.191731.-137581.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: > Bill, thanks for sharing the Minden Map. I havn't seen one of those in > over fifty years. There are a few more on my web page. I had thought that these maps were the actual routes taken, but I found out that these were the proposed routes to the primary targets. I corresponded with someone on another list, who worked for a company that produced computerized mission maps for the air force, and he thought it would be interesting to plug some of the turning points into his program. I made the mistake of giving him the map for a mission (3/19/45) where the primary target had bad weather and they attacked another target, so when the fellow plugged in the check points, the route didn't go to the town that was bombed, but rather went to the primary target. Anyway, this had me confused, until I went to NARA last summer. They had maps there that showed both the proposed and the actual routes taken for each mission. It was interesting, because on the particular mission I was looking at, they had made the turn at the original IP, but made almost a 180 deg turn, almost parallel to their original course to get to the secondary target, then turned at the target to get to another one of the original turn points. I also found an account of the mission written by pilot who lead the division on the mission, who described how and when the decision was made to go to the alternate target, and how the 180 deg turn almost resulted in some mid air collissions. Anyway, it was very interesting to reconstruct the mission. I've put a lot of the info for that particular mission, including the maps and the narratives at : http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/mar19.html Interesting. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 03:47:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:47:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010314.214712.-337259.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Thanks for sharing the March 19 " Mission Loading List". I see that my original crew (Lacker) was flying with Pilot Juns. I flew with him later on and he was good. Another friend, Roy Statton was on that mission. Your Dad certainly did a commendable job of keeping records. I know how much you must treasure them. Thanks , Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 09:03:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:03:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: <20010314.164517.-393451.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <3AB0854D.C2E28532@attglobal.net> Bill Runnels ... I think Hal Susskind would be the best source for queries anent the bomb run. I can recall, in many leads, where I sat there doing my best to maintain exactly 150 mph IAS and a level - if possible - plane so the bombardier could score well. If one can imagine a broomstick shoved down through the bombsight, for 25000 feet ... then if you moved the nose of the airplane up or down SLIGHTLY it could be more than three or four miles on the ground. Thus the attempt to maintain a very level plane AND the IAS of 150 mph. Of course, at times, due to enemy action, such was quite difficult. Hal is still your best source for this info. Cheers! BILL HELLER Bill L Runnels wrote: > Bill, I think the average speed would be closer to 165 mph on the B-17. > As Hal stated, the wind would have an effect. Some of our pilot friends > would know better than I. > Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 13:12:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:12:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20.1359aca7.27e219d9@aol.com> Think about this....WORLD WAR II HAS NOT ENDED!!! There has never been a formal declaration of cessation of hostilies between Russia and Germany....this according to Isaac Azimov's Book of Facts. Are we all on leave or what? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 13:17:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:17:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <20010315.071731.-337365.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill Heller, Thanks for the response and suggestion. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 14:20:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:20:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilots Message-ID: <006b01c0ad5b$2a640100$46184e0c@o3n4f8> FYI http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/homestart02.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 17:08:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:08:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:26:37 EST Message-ID: <3380-3AB0F713-181@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill,Bill, Bill and Jack No wind conditions at 25,000 feet over Germany would have beeen a miracle. IAS plus altitude gave you True Air Speed; vector in the wind and you have ground speed. A 150 knot crosswind at bombing altitude could give you trouble because the bombsight could only crank in 26 degrees of drift. 150 knot winds at altitude over Germany were not uncommon. We had great pilots to keep the plane on course during the bomb run. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 17:21:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:21:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:43:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3381-3AB0FA06-130@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill The map you showed was handed out at the navigator briefings. The navigator plotted in the course on it with the times. When I got out to the plane I plotted all this on regular maps and did my navigating on those. The maps were very good. You could find your position by the shape of the woods on the ground. Plus my maps also had all the flak positions drawn in. I brought them home with me. They are framed on the wall of my son in law who is a WW II buff. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 17:43:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:43:12 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: <3381-3AB0FA06-130@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3AB0FF2F.69EA3921@attglobal.net> Hal ... Hello Rae .... Your Son-In-Law deserves credit for being a WW#2 (the one we won) buff. Wouldn't it be great if our education system would also be a buff, as it were. I find people of all ages under 50 who do not know what nor even WHERE WW#2 was ... ! It is to be appalled. Cheers! BILL HELLER Harold Susskind wrote: > Bill The map > you showed was handed out at the navigator briefings. The navigator > plotted in the course on it with the times. When I got out to the plane > I plotted all this on regular maps and did my navigating on those. The > maps were very good. You could find your position by the shape of the > woods on the ground. Plus my maps also had all the flak positions drawn > in. I brought them home with me. They are framed on the wall of my son > in law who is a WW II buff. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 18:39:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:39:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Remove from e-mail list Message-ID: <000701c0ad7f$3701f1a0$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Please, remove me from the 303rd e-mail list. I have learned a lot. But the bulk of mail that I receive daily is overwhelming. Thanx, Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 18:47:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:47:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14 Mar 01, at 20:26, Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill, Our indicated airspeed was supposed to be 150 MPH. At 25,000feet in no > wind conditions our ground speed then would be225 MPH or so. > Jack Rencher > It took me a whole day to digest this info. My measurements on the map indicated that they traveled 45 miles in 15 minutes, which was 180 MPH, and I added up all the distances flown at or near bombing altitude, and calculated that the average speed to and from the target was about 195 MPH. At first, I didn't understand how they could be going 225 MPH, but only cover 45 miles in 15 min, so I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I think I understand now. I found a altitude vs IAS graph, and found that for 150 mhp IAS, at 24000' gives 220 MPH. I also found on the map that there was apparently a 29 MPH headwind at the target area. Subtracting 29 mph headwind gives about 190 MPH, which is within my measuring accuracy, ie it might have really been 47.5 miles instead of 45 miles. Anyway, I was happy to finally figure out how to use the IAS vs altitude vs power vs true air speed chart. If I understand it right, it looks like the 150MPH IAS just happens to be approximately the highest RPM without using more than 28" mnifold pressure, which would seem to be the most economical place to fly (but I'm just guessing here). However that brings up another question. The manifold pressure part of the graph makes sense at low altitudes, since the 28" is atmospheric pressure, however I don't understand why there aren't any settings for manifold pressures under 28" when flying at altitude? Does this mean that at altitude, that you have to use the supercharger to bring the pressure up to what it would be on the ground, at a minimum? Ie is it not possible to fly the B-17 at altitude without the supercharger? I'm not sure that the above question made any sense, so to ask it another way, it's just that all the power curves show a whole bunch of settings with manifold pressures of 28" , and then higher pressures up to 46" when using the supercharger.... the fact that the minimum is 28" makes sense at ground level, but not at altitude. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 15 19:12:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:12:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested Message-ID: Hal Glad to have you back. We missed you! From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Why we young guys are interested >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:29:30 -0600 (CST) > >Brian and Bill I'll give you >something more tragic than not mentioing WW II in the history books. The >present day Air Force knows little about the WW !! 8th Air Force. >Except the people stationed at Molesworth, thanks to Brian. Hal >Susskind > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 00:15:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:15:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: <93.835fa4e.27e2b533@aol.com> Hal, You are absolutely right and I know the difference between true air speed and ground speed. I didn't realize any navigators would be reading this and I wanted to keep it simple so the pilots could grasp it. I know no wind conditions have never ever existed at 25,000 feet. But you see if you had an indicated air speed of 150 mph at 25000 ft and had a wind from the west of 250 MPH, if you were headed west your ground speed would be 0, but if you did a 180 and maintained your same air speed your ground speed would be 500 MPH. Now pilots would not understand this and I did not want to confuse them. Now that brings up a question. If the first instance above flying into the 250 mile wind at 150 indicated air speed and you flew thru a front and the head wind instantly quit. WOULD YOU STALL?? Keep the Faith, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 00:39:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:39:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] password forgotten Message-ID: <002401c0adb1$b103b240$ae2764d8@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0AD6E.8FFCEFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable address if junned@humboldt1.com, but I have forgotten password. Ed = Lamme =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0AD6E.8FFCEFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

address if junned@humboldt1.com, but I = have=20 forgotten password. Ed Lamme

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0AD6E.8FFCEFA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 07:39:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (sharon m jaehne) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:39:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hybert Message-ID: <20010315.233927.-188549.0.sabel96@juno.com> David Bacon Iwas on your grandfathers crew in the 359th. I flew every mission with him except when i got my feet burnt and had to go to the hospital. I went on to fly 30 missions . I was so surprised to see your letter. my e-mail is sabel96@juno.com It would be nice to hear from you Charles Jaehne PS i am in the picture of the crew that is on the 303rd bg sight From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 08:59:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:59:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: Message-ID: <3AB1D5F4.2C99FF26@attglobal.net> True Airspeed is a product of altitude and temperature among other things. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > On 14 Mar 01, at 20:26, Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Bill, Our indicated airspeed was supposed to be 150 MPH. At 25,000feet in no > > wind conditions our ground speed then would be225 MPH or so. > > Jack Rencher > > > It took me a whole day to digest this info. My measurements on > the map indicated that they traveled 45 miles in 15 minutes, which > was 180 MPH, and I added up all the distances flown at or near > bombing altitude, and calculated that the average speed to and > from the target was about 195 MPH. At first, I didn't understand > how they could be going 225 MPH, but only cover 45 miles in 15 > min, so I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I think I > understand now. > I found a altitude vs IAS graph, and found that for 150 mhp IAS, > at 24000' gives 220 MPH. I also found on the map that there was > apparently a 29 MPH headwind at the target area. Subtracting 29 > mph headwind gives about 190 MPH, which is within my measuring > accuracy, ie it might have really been 47.5 miles instead of 45 > miles. > Anyway, I was happy to finally figure out how to use the IAS vs > altitude vs power vs true air speed chart. If I understand it right, it > looks like the 150MPH IAS just happens to be approximately the > highest RPM without using more than 28" mnifold pressure, which > would seem to be the most economical place to fly (but I'm just > guessing here). > However that brings up another question. The manifold > pressure part of the graph makes sense at low altitudes, since the > 28" is atmospheric pressure, however I don't understand why there > aren't any settings for manifold pressures under 28" when flying at > altitude? Does this mean that at altitude, that you have to use the > supercharger to bring the pressure up to what it would be on the > ground, at a minimum? Ie is it not possible to fly the B-17 at > altitude without the supercharger? > I'm not sure that the above question made any sense, so to ask > it another way, it's just that all the power curves show a whole > bunch of settings with manifold pressures of 28" , and then higher > pressures up to 46" when using the supercharger.... the fact that > the minimum is 28" makes sense at ground level, but not at > altitude. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 09:03:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:03:16 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: <93.835fa4e.27e2b533@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AB1D6D4.50CA846A@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... I have flown into a 220 knot headwind at 35,000 feet, over Tokyo in a DC8 and also in a DC10. Of course, such a jet-stream wind never quits INSTANTLY, but if it did ... WOW! When it changes even a little 10 knots in speed it produces EXTREME turbulence (CAT). Jack, some pilots do understand what you have been writing ... Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Hal, You are absolutely right and I know the difference between true air > speed and ground speed. I didn't realize any navigators would be reading this > and I wanted to keep it simple so the pilots could grasp it. I know no wind > conditions have never ever existed at 25,000 feet. But you see if you had an > indicated air speed of 150 mph at 25000 ft and had a wind from the west of > 250 MPH, if you were headed west your ground speed would be 0, but if you did > a 180 and maintained your same air speed your ground speed would be 500 MPH. > Now pilots would not understand this and I did not want to confuse them. Now > that brings up a question. If the first instance above flying into the 250 > mile wind at 150 indicated air speed and you flew thru a front and the head > wind instantly quit. WOULD YOU STALL?? > Keep the Faith, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 14:06:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:06:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: <3AB1D6D4.50CA846A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > I have flown into a 220 knot headwind at 35,000 feet, over Tokyo in a DC8 and > also in a DC10. Of course, such a jet-stream wind never quits INSTANTLY, but if > it did ... WOW! When it changes even a little 10 knots in speed it produces > EXTREME turbulence (CAT). > I heard an account of an airline pilot who suddenly encountered a very strong tail wind, and apparently he did stall, and started dropping out of the sky. I think he gave it all the power he had to get up some air speed, and just when he had enough air speed to regain some lift , the tail wind ceased, and now he was going 50% faster than the plane was designed to fly, and heading down. Apparently this fellow invented a new procedure whereby he used the reverse thruster things on the jet engines (I don't really understand how they work) to slow the plane down so that he could regain control of the plane. I heard the pilot give this account on a radio program some 30 or 40 years ago, and didn't understand the implications at the time, but the more I learn about these planes from you guys, it sounded like a frightening situation. I live in Maine about 30 miles east of Mt Washington NH, and the weather reports up there on the 6288' mountain often have winds in excess of 150 MPH. My son is a private pilot, who only flies these little single engine planes that only go about 120 MPH. He keeps talking about flying up to visit me (instead of driving), but I always wonder what the implications would be of flying near mountains that have winds like that. He could be flying backward with winds like that. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 16:49:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:49:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Headwinds, Tokyo tanks, range & route taken accross atlantic ??? Message-ID: The recent discussion about flying into headwinds, airspeed, Tokyo tanks etc, made me wonder about something. In reading the diary about how the group got the original planes over there, I notice that they flew a direct route accross the atlantic (from Canada at least), ie they didn't stop at Greenland and Iceland. However those B-17s that returned from England after VE day went via Iceland and Greenland. I made an estimate of the distance (it might be WAY off due to the projection method of the map) looking at a weather map for the return trip, and it looks like the direct route must have been something like 2000 miles from Canada to Derry, give or take a few hundred. This would have required bomb bay tanks for the original F model planes, and still would have been marginal. However for the G models that came back, with Tokyo tanks and perhaps a bomb bay tank, there should have been no problem with that range. So the question is, why did they take the direct route with the B- 17F planes that had less range, but they made 2 stops with the B- 17G planes that had greater range???? Two possibilities came to mind, one that going over they were flying with the wind, but coming back they would be going against the wind (except that I wouldn't think they would be flying high enough to take advantage of jet streams on a ferry trip). The other possibility that I thought of was that the BW1 airfield was considered dangerous early in the war, but perhaps they might have installed more radio beacons to aid in navigation to the airfield by the time VE day came around??? So why did they fly into a potentially dangerous airfield (Greenland) on the way home, when they could have easily made it via a direct route with bomb bay tanks??? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 17:20:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:20:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:43:12 -0500 Message-ID: <1301-3AB24B50-1270@storefull-245.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Jones This is in reference to your message of March 14 which contained the map of the Minden raid.Firstof all the date you mentioned was a year off. GH bombing wasn't even discovered then. There is also a distance scale when you take into consideration the degrees of latitude. It is 60 miles between degrees. eyeballing it, it placed the I.P. at about 51 degrees 35 minutes north and the target at 52 degrees 15 minutes north, a distance of about 40 miles from I.P. to target. With times of 1501 and bombs away at 1516, we went 40 miles in 15 minutes which would make he GS on the bomb run 160. To which I say oy vey! If that had been March of "44, they would have gotten their ass shot off. Incidentally I was lead navigator on the following days mission to the headquarters of the German Army at Zossen, outside of Berlin. It was a milkrun. What a difference a year made. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 18:02:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:02:22 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Headwinds, Tokyo tanks, range & route taken accross atlantic ??? References: Message-ID: <3AB2552D.146A5EF5@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... While I do not know the correct answer to your query anent flying EASTBOUND directly and flying WESTBOUND by making stops ... I can assure you that in the Northern Hemisphere the normal winds are Westerly. Sometimes VERY strong. As an International Airline Captain for 35 years, I can also assure you that I made many nonstops from WEST to EAST in the North Atlantic that I could never have made EAST to WEST. The same holds true in the North Pac ... I used to make nonstops from Hong Kong to San Francisco, but NEVER the other way, ie., Westbound. Also, many contract carriers, TWA, AA, etc., were making all the stops EASTBOUND, such as Narsarsuak, etc., as well as Westbound. Some more earlier than we in the 8th were doing it. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > The recent discussion about flying into headwinds, airspeed, > Tokyo tanks etc, made me wonder about something. > In reading the diary about how the group got the original planes > over there, I notice that they flew a direct route accross the atlantic > (from Canada at least), ie they didn't stop at Greenland and > Iceland. However those B-17s that returned from England after VE > day went via Iceland and Greenland. I made an estimate of the > distance (it might be WAY off due to the projection method of the > map) looking at a weather map for the return trip, and it looks like > the direct route must have been something like 2000 miles from > Canada to Derry, give or take a few hundred. This would have > required bomb bay tanks for the original F model planes, and still > would have been marginal. However for the G models that came > back, with Tokyo tanks and perhaps a bomb bay tank, there > should have been no problem with that range. > So the question is, why did they take the direct route with the B- > 17F planes that had less range, but they made 2 stops with the B- > 17G planes that had greater range???? Two possibilities came to > mind, one that going over they were flying with the wind, but > coming back they would be going against the wind (except that I > wouldn't think they would be flying high enough to take advantage > of jet streams on a ferry trip). The other possibility that I thought > of was that the BW1 airfield was considered dangerous early in the > war, but perhaps they might have installed more radio beacons to > aid in navigation to the airfield by the time VE day came around??? > So why did they fly into a potentially dangerous airfield > (Greenland) on the way home, when they could have easily made it > via a direct route with bomb bay tanks??? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 18:07:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:07:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: <1301-3AB24B50-1270@storefull-245.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:43:12 -0500 Message-ID: > Bill Jones This is in > reference to your message of March 14 which contained the map of the > Minden raid.Firstof all the date you mentioned was a year off. Ouch! You are right, I meant to say 1945 not 1944. I had just been reading some fall 1944 narratives, and wasn't thinking straght. Thanks for the correction. > There is also a distance scale when > you take into consideration the degrees of latitude. It is 60 miles > between degrees. eyeballing it, it placed the I.P. at about 51 degrees > 35 minutes north and the target at 52 degrees 15 minutes north, a > distance of about 40 miles from I.P. to target. With times of 1501 and > bombs away at 1516, we went 40 miles in 15 minutes which would make he > GS on the bomb run 160. To which I say oy vey! If that had been March > of "44, they would have gotten their ass shot off. I assume you are saying that the low GS means you are a better target for flak. I'm curious, I know that the fighters were worse in 44, but I was under the impression that the flak wasn't much different, especially near the target (Ie what I had heard somewhere was that by 45, the Germans pulled their AA batteries back to the targets rather than having them spread out everywhere). Is this wrong? Thanks Incidentally I was > lead navigator on the following days mission to the headquarters of the > German Army at Zossen, outside of Berlin. It was a milkrun. What a > difference a year made. > > ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 18:13:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:13:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: Message-ID: <3AB257B9.1DCDDA0E@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Suddenly encountering a tailwind ... when a headwind or no wind was present ... is most dangerous when it occurs in the final stages of an approach to landing. During flight, the airplane is flying in a "block" of air, and the effect is not as serious. The use of reversers in the air is probhibited on some airliners and allowed on others, due to their design, etc. Reverse thrust on a jet is merely the driving back of "sleeves" on the sides of each rear portion of the engine cowling and within said are "clamshell" panels which are reversed to point the thrusted jet sending air FORWARD thus producing NO thrust. This decelerates the aircraft when it lands. In jets AND in prop planes, when the engines are "reversed THEY ARE NOT! Such loads would be estremely prohibitive and would ruin an engine. In jets, the "sleeves" are moved aft to allow the "clamshells" to deploy and turn forward thus directing any thrusted air in the opposite direction. In prop planes, the propellers are merely reversed in their collar (prop nose section) and the blades are still turning the same direction, BUT, thrusting forward air. Much like turning an elecric fan around and blowing the air in the opposite direction. For years many people have thought the engines themselves were really reversed. Not so. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > I have flown into a 220 knot headwind at 35,000 feet, over Tokyo in a DC8 and > > also in a DC10. Of course, such a jet-stream wind never quits INSTANTLY, but if > > it did ... WOW! When it changes even a little 10 knots in speed it produces > > EXTREME turbulence (CAT). > > > > I heard an account of an airline pilot who suddenly encountered a > very strong tail wind, and apparently he did stall, and started > dropping out of the sky. I think he gave it all the power he had to > get up some air speed, and just when he had enough air speed to > regain some lift , the tail wind ceased, and now he was going 50% > faster than the plane was designed to fly, and heading down. > Apparently this fellow invented a new procedure whereby he used > the reverse thruster things on the jet engines (I don't really > understand how they work) to slow the plane down so that he could > regain control of the plane. I heard the pilot give this account on a > radio program some 30 or 40 years ago, and didn't understand the > implications at the time, but the more I learn about these planes > from you guys, it sounded like a frightening situation. > I live in Maine about 30 miles east of Mt Washington NH, and the > weather reports up there on the 6288' mountain often have winds in > excess of 150 MPH. My son is a private pilot, who only flies > these little single engine planes that only go about 120 MPH. He > keeps talking about flying up to visit me (instead of driving), but I > always wonder what the implications would be of flying near > mountains that have winds like that. He could be flying backward > with winds like that. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 16 21:59:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:59:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:07:16 -0500 Message-ID: <20794-3AB28CD5-86@storefull-243.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Minden was never a priority target. If you flew straight and level at the same airspeed, same heading and same altitude over a target like Merseberg for 15 minutes you can rest assured that you would be spending that night as a guest of the German military. By the way I clicked in on one of your links. The 303rd flew 364 missions out of the UK, not 314. When I was stationed in Bermuda in 1951-54 I saw a C-124 come for a landing on the strip that stretched out into the water. The wind suddenly stopped and the plane landed about 100 feet short in the drink. Things like that could ruin your entire day. cheers! Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 01:49:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:49:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) Message-ID: Bill Heller & Bill Jones & others. I didn't mean to start something but I did so I'll do my best to finish it. One of you Billso knows more about this than I do but here goes. The indicated air speed is a pressure instrument that measures ram air pressure as the Pitot static tube moves through the air. The faster it moves the more pressure is armed into it. The more dense the air is the more pressure is rammed into it. so it is only giving you true air speed at sea level when the air pressure there is at standard temperature and 29.92 inches of mercury which is standard pressure but the air pressure varies constantly and when it is standard it doesn't stay that way so, as we go up the air gets less dense so there is an AVERAGE error in the indicated air speed of 2% per 1000 feet. If the temperature changes at an unstandard rate which is does a correction must be put in for that too. On the average at 25,000 feet we would have 50% error which means the true air speed would be 150 % of the indicated air speed. Now if you have any major variation of this it would be mostly a result of wind. so you could have a ground speed higher or lower than you true air speed depending mostly on head winds or tail winds. Now lets talk about manifold pressure. I will talk about B17F or G models with the R1830-97 engines only. We used the superchargers from ground up. Without superchargers the maximum manifold pressure on any engine at 18,000 feet would be a bit less than. 15 inches which would probably be above its absolute ceiling with a load. The maximum manifold pressure at sea level; would be less than 30 inches. I flew many different aircraft and they were all different and I am old and might have forgotten but as I remember we used 2500 Rpm and 46 inches for take off. With 2400 we could us 42 inches. These were for 5 minutes only. Highest continues power was 2300 and 36 inches. 2200 and 29 inches or maybe it was 28 and at any rpm 2100 or LESS we could still use 28 inches. Even at 1400 we could still use 28 inches as I remember. You were not going very fast but you could stay in the air until your next birthday. I hope this clears things up and I haven't made to many mistakes. I was only kidding about the pilots and navigators. I hope you can find it in your hearts to forgive me. Best Wishes Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 02:44:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:44:03 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MANIFOLD PRESSURE Message-ID: <000501c0ae8c$222b6e60$0dbb9ace@mjpmtman> Jack Rencher -- you jarred my memories. Can't remember the name of the ship - Lost an engine over the channel [blow a cowl] - over the target lost another one. Rumor had it that they were pulling 60 inches of mercury on the way home. After rolling to the end of the runway they lost the third. The fourth died after they rolled into their reventment. What memory I have left tells me the revetment was near the road ti site one. ???????????? I do know that 17 looked awesomely BARE without its engines. How wild was the rumor? Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 04:36:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:36:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] MANIFOLD PRESSURE Message-ID: Mauice, We pulled 61 inches and 3000 rpm on the P51Ds and K's and 91 inches & 3000 RPM's on the P51H, But if you pulled 60 inches at any available RPM on our B17's you would be very lucky to get it across the channel. It would ruin the engines in very short order. It would cause severe detonation which would burn holes in the pistons, bend the rods, blow the cylinder heads and make scrap out of the engines in just a few minutes. This is my opinion. Believe me I never actually tried it. Keep the Peace, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 05:49:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:49:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII & Germany Message-ID: --part1_e8.11f0ae2f.27e45505_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of you may want to disregard the topic I am temporarily resurrecting after its demise more than a week ago. If that is the case then I strongly recommend that you delete this email now. For the rest of you please read on. My delay in responding is due to the death of one of my wife's relatives. Both my wife and I made the trek east to Montana to pay our respects. This period of sadness has provided additional time for me to gather some pertinent thoughts. There are many reasons why someone would want to be associated with a web site such as this. Some want to reminisce about their war time experiences. Some want to learn more about what happened to relatives and others those many decades ago. Some want to honor those who perished in the name of freedom so that yet unborn generations would have an opportunity to have a meaningful life. I place myself primarily in the latter category. To forgive and forget our former German enemy is a noble, but somewhat elusive undertaking. I believe that forgiveness is the Christian thing to do. Due to the passage of time very few of the perpetrators of the innumerable and well documented crimes against humanity are still alive. However, to forget what happened does a great disservice to those on both sides who fought and died for what they believed. It does a greater disservice to future generations who may want to understand the events that occurred between 1933 and 1945 in Europe. To portray Hitler and his Nazi regime as nothing more than a bunch of nice guys in Berlin who were suddenly attacked by the US and British is the deliberate falsification of history. To believe that the peaceful and beautiful cities of the Third Reich were the object of unprovoked bombing by the US and British is to completely disregard the events of 1933 to 1942. During this nine year period Germany successfully occupied or conquered by blatant military force the Rhineland, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France. This list is by no means complete. Forgiveness is one thing. Amnesia is quite another. World War II is over, but let us not forget what truly happened. In Memory of 2LT Stonewall Jackson Raley and others of 1LT Cureton's Crew KIA 21NOV44. They will not be forgotten. John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_e8.11f0ae2f.27e45505_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Some of you may want to disregard the topic I am temporarily
resurrecting after its demise more than a week ago. If that is the case then
I strongly recommend that you delete this email now. For the rest of you
please read on.
      My delay in responding is due to the death of one of my wife's
relatives. Both my wife and I made the trek east to Montana to pay our
respects. This period of sadness has provided additional time for me to
gather some pertinent thoughts.
      There are many reasons why someone would want to be associated with a
web site such as this. Some want to reminisce about their war time
experiences. Some want to learn more about what happened to relatives and
others those many decades ago. Some want to honor those who perished in the
name of freedom so that yet unborn generations would have an opportunity to
have a meaningful life. I place myself primarily in the latter category.
      To forgive and forget our former German enemy is a noble, but somewhat
elusive undertaking. I believe that forgiveness is the Christian thing to
do. Due to the passage of time very few of the perpetrators of the
innumerable and well documented crimes against humanity are still alive.
However, to forget what happened does a great disservice to those on both
sides who fought and died for what they believed. It does a greater
disservice to future generations who may want to understand the events that
occurred between 1933 and 1945 in Europe.
      To portray Hitler and his Nazi regime as nothing more than a bunch of
nice guys in Berlin who were suddenly attacked by the US and British is the
deliberate falsification of history. To believe that the peaceful and
beautiful cities of the Third Reich were the object of unprovoked bombing by
the US and British is to completely disregard the events of 1933 to 1942.
During this nine year period Germany successfully occupied or conquered by
blatant military force the Rhineland, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia,
Austria, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France.
This list is by no means complete.
      Forgiveness is one thing. Amnesia is quite another. World War II is
over, but let us not forget what truly happened.

      In Memory of 2LT Stonewall Jackson Raley and others of 1LT Cureton's
Crew KIA 21NOV44. They will not be forgotten.

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_e8.11f0ae2f.27e45505_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 07:08:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 02:08:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #205 - 13 msgs Message-ID: I was a Toggleer with Julius C. Damien's crew in the 427th. does anybody here recall him or his co-pilot Earl Weatherby? My Navigator was Larry Tractman. Any info on any one will be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot Joe Ross From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 09:23:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:23:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) References: Message-ID: <3AB32D17.52B21AC8@attglobal.net> Hi, Jack (don 't ever say that in an airport) ... You're forgiven, old buddy. But I'd like to tell you about having an altimeter shot out. Guess what ... the Manifold Pressure gage of a dead engine is a very handy altimeter! Don't know all the answers, but my 33,000 command pilot hours have told me that you sound like a good pilot .... Don 't take that IAS stuff too seriously. IAS is what keeps you flying. All that other crap is for other people to worry about. All I know is they PLANNED our bomb runs to be INTO whatever wind they figured was up there at our bombing altitudes. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller & Bill Jones & others. > I didn't mean to start something but I did so I'll do my best to finish > it. One of you Billso knows more about this than I do but here goes. > The indicated air speed is a pressure instrument that measures ram air > pressure as the Pitot static tube moves through the air. The faster it moves > the more pressure is armed into it. The more dense the air is the more > pressure is rammed into it. so it is only giving you true air speed at sea > level when the air pressure there is at standard temperature and 29.92 inches > of mercury which is standard pressure but the air pressure varies constantly > and when it is standard it doesn't stay that way > so, as we go up the air gets less dense so there is an AVERAGE error in the > indicated air speed of 2% per 1000 feet. If the temperature changes at an > unstandard rate which is does a correction must be put in for that too. On > the average at 25,000 feet we would have 50% error which means the true air > speed would be 150 % of the indicated air speed. Now if you have any major > variation of this it would be mostly a result of wind. so you could have a > ground speed higher or lower than you true air speed depending mostly on head > winds or tail winds. Now lets talk about manifold pressure. I will talk > about B17F or G models with the R1830-97 engines only. > > We used the superchargers from ground up. Without superchargers the > maximum manifold pressure on any engine at 18,000 feet would be a bit less > than. > 15 inches which would probably be above its absolute ceiling with a load. The > maximum manifold pressure at sea level; would be less than 30 inches. I flew > many different aircraft and they were all different and I am old and might > have forgotten but as I remember we used 2500 Rpm and 46 inches for take > off. With 2400 we could us 42 inches. These were for 5 minutes only. > Highest continues power was 2300 and 36 inches. 2200 and 29 inches or maybe > it was 28 and at any rpm 2100 or LESS we could still use 28 inches. Even at > 1400 we could still use 28 inches as I remember. You were not going very > fast but you could stay in the air until your next birthday. I hope this > clears things up and I haven't made to many mistakes. I was only kidding > about the pilots and navigators. I hope you can find it in your hearts to > forgive me. > Best Wishes > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 13:35:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:35:57 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII & Germany References: Message-ID: <001b01c0aee7$8eedc740$6d0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0AEE7.32723DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John - I think you spoke very well for almost all of us on this site. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII & Germany Some of you may want to disregard the topic I am temporarily=20 resurrecting after its demise more than a week ago. If that is the = case then=20 I strongly recommend that you delete this email now. For the rest of = you=20 please read on.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0AEE7.32723DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John -

I think you spoke very well for almost all of us = on this=20 site.

Brian

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20

To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 = 5:49=20 AM

Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII = &=20 Germany

Some of you may=20 want to disregard the topic I am temporarily
resurrecting after = its demise=20 more than a week ago. If that is the case then
I strongly = recommend=20 that you delete this email now. For the rest of you
please = read on.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0AEE7.32723DC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 17 14:14:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:14:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Manifold pressure Message-ID: <000501c0aeec$99355ce0$14bb9ace@mjpmtman> THANK YOU Jack -----at least I know the demise of all four engines was not a rumor. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 18 22:22:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:22:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - please ignore Message-ID: <3AB4D2AB.3891.17D4CDA@localhost> test - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 18 20:10:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:10:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Effects of having to assemble much higher? Message-ID: I was reading the accounts of a mission where the plan was to assemble at around 11,000' , however due to clouds, the group had to go up to 22,000' before they found clear air for assembly. This made me wonder about all the implications of this. First of all, this would probably use up a lot of fuel, which makes me wonder how much extra fuel was typically carried? (This particular mission was a relatively short one, so they were given about 300 gal less than normal, but ended up running short of fuel.) However what really struck my interest is how this would change the timing of the mission, particularly if different groups in the stream of bombers were able to assemble at lower altitudes, and were able to be ready to leave sooner. Question is, did they allow extra time for such a contingency, and just have groups circling around for this extra time if assembly could be accomplished at lower altitudes? It just seems like it could really mess up timing of the mission if some groups had to assemble much higher than others. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 18 20:10:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:10:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] How close together were groups near the target? Message-ID: I was reading a document that I found at the Nat Archives, which was a order telling groups when they were supposed to pass the various buncher points shortly after assembly. What caught my eye was that the document was indicating that there was one minute time differences between groups (at least between groups in the 41st CBW). This spacing seemed rather short. So I was curious whether this spacing was maintained all the way to the target? If so, then I am confused as to what happens when you got to the IP? Ie I had seen a description in the documentary "Target for Today", that suggested that if the lead squadron turned for the target at the IP, that the remaining 2 squadrons in the group would continue along the their current course and turn 30 sec later, and 60 sec later respectively. (I can't remember if it said this turning proceedure was used back when 20 plane box formations were flown, or later when the 13 plane squadron formations were flown, or both.) It would seem then, that if the next group turned at the same IP, that the lead squadron of the next group would be reaching the target at about the same time as the trailing squadron of the preceeding group, which wouldn't be good. I must have part of the above wrong, but what? Thanks ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 18 21:48:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:48:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point)planned bomb run into the wind In-Reply-To: William Heller 's message of Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:23:35 -0800 Message-ID: <27970-3AB52D17-4689@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Sorry old buddy but not all bomb runs were planned into the wind. I remember bombing Hannover in MRCH OF "45 WHEN OUR GROUND SPEED ON THE BOMB RUN WAS 395 MPH. We bombed by radar and our mickey operator Larry Lifshus was calling out the distances to the target like an auctioneer. I even saw Dick Cole smile that day. The only other time he smiled was when he talked me into flying another tour. And I used the word "talked" very reverently. Cheers to you and Ruth. Rae and Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 07:53:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:53:12 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Effects of having to assemble much higher? References: Message-ID: <3AB5BAE8.84CC738@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... I noted in your letter that you mentioned "extra fuel" ..... I do not think you will find a crew which can relate to the phrase "extra fuel" ... what's that? Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > I was reading the accounts of a mission where the plan was to > assemble at around 11,000' , however due to clouds, the group had > to go up to 22,000' before they found clear air for assembly. > This made me wonder about all the implications of this. First of > all, this would probably use up a lot of fuel, which makes me > wonder how much extra fuel was typically carried? (This particular > mission was a relatively short one, so they were given about 300 > gal less than normal, but ended up running short of fuel.) > However what really struck my interest is how this would change > the timing of the mission, particularly if different groups in the > stream of bombers were able to assemble at lower altitudes, and > were able to be ready to leave sooner. Question is, did they allow > extra time for such a contingency, and just have groups circling > around for this extra time if assembly could be accomplished at > lower altitudes? > It just seems like it could really mess up timing of the mission if > some groups had to assemble much higher than others. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 07:56:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:56:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point)planned bomb run into thewind References: <27970-3AB52D17-4689@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3AB5BBA9.674933FA@attglobal.net> Hal and Rae Susskind .... I think I may have said "planned" to be into the wind. Once when I griped I was told, "That's to make it easier to hit the target because you go slower ....!" But then what ever occurs as it is "planned" ...? We send our love from our house to your house. We'll be on vacation to the islands the end of April and will spend a week at our old watering hole, the Royal in Honolulu. We'll hoist one for you two. Cheers! Bill heller Harold Susskind wrote: > Bill Sorry old > buddy but not all bomb runs were planned into the wind. I remember > bombing Hannover in MRCH OF "45 WHEN OUR GROUND SPEED ON THE BOMB RUN > WAS 395 MPH. We bombed by radar and our mickey operator Larry Lifshus > was calling out the distances to the target like an auctioneer. I even > saw Dick Cole smile that day. The only other time he smiled was when he > talked me into flying another tour. And I used the word "talked" very > reverently. Cheers to you and Ruth. Rae and Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 13:05:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:05:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Effects of having to assemble much higher? In-Reply-To: <3AB5BAE8.84CC738@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > I noted in your letter that you mentioned "extra fuel" ..... I do not > think you will find a crew which can relate to the phrase "extra fuel" > ... what's that? Sorry, the question didn't come out quite the way I planned, I didn't mean it to sound like you had fuel to spare. My question developed when I saw that on one particular mission, that the planes carried only 2400 gal rather than 2700 gal that they carried on longer missions, so I assumed that the planners must have calculated how much fuel would theoretically have be needed for the mission, and then added some "extra" as a safety margin. I was just curious how close they would cut this safety margin. Ie would it be close enough that having to assemble at 22000' instead of 12000' would have made it difficult to complete the mission? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 17:28:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:28:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Close formations Message-ID: <001101c0b09a$02668820$e1bcf5cd@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0B067.B6E11BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several times, in the Wabash Cannon Ball, we went to the front lines = while RANK directed traffic. One cold see B-17's from horizon to horizon. A beautifil sight Fory Barton ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0B067.B6E11BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Several times, in the Wabash Cannon = Ball, we=20 went to the front lines while RANK directed traffic.

One cold see B-17's from horizon to=20 horizon.

A beautifil sight

Fory Barton

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0B067.B6E11BE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 17:55:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:55:45 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Effects of having to assemble much higher? References: Message-ID: <3AB64821.ABC56C6F@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Solely my belief, but I think that fuel loads were also computed to arrive at allowable gross weight for takeoff, and that if the bomb load required a certain load, then the fuel was also considered in the overall weight. Remember how we "groaned" as we neared the end of the takeoff runway? Therefore, if fuel load was only 2400 when capacity was 2700 it may be that the extra weight for "extra fuel" (a phrase never heard) may have put us over allowable gross weight for takeoff. Just a thought ... Cheers! WCH Bill Jones wrote: > > > I noted in your letter that you mentioned "extra fuel" ..... I do not > > think you will find a crew which can relate to the phrase "extra fuel" > > ... what's that? > > Sorry, the question didn't come out quite the way I planned, I didn't > mean it to sound like you had fuel to spare. My question > developed when I saw that on one particular mission, that the > planes carried only 2400 gal rather than 2700 gal that they carried > on longer missions, so I assumed that the planners must have > calculated how much fuel would theoretically have be needed for > the mission, and then added some "extra" as a safety margin. I > was just curious how close they would cut this safety margin. Ie > would it be close enough that having to assemble at 22000' instead > of 12000' would have made it difficult to complete the mission? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 17:32:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (fox) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:32:30 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] T.Sgt. Conrad J KERSCH # 6558428 Message-ID: <200103191736.f2JHaR974762@m3.worldnet.net> I am working on a story about WW II in northern France and looking for information of T Sgt Conrad J Kersch who was part of the 427th Squadron 303nd bg, he took part in a raid over northern France to bomb the German V.2 rocket sites near St Omer the raid took place on 26th March 1944. German flak attacked the bomber and all crews bailed out, T.Sgt Kersch landed near a French village of Lederzeele in French Flanders region. He was looked after by local people and then introduced to the French Resistance movement the FFI. In that group was a boy by the name of Stephen GRADY (his father was English and his mother French) and they lived at Nieppe on the French Belgian border. Grady was about 16 when war broke out, he later joined the Resistance, Sgt Kersch was attached to his unit of the Resistance. I am in contact with Mr Grady who lives retired in Greece, he was one of the many pre war pupils like myself that attended the British Memorial School built in 1927 in Ypres, for the staff and dependants of the Imperial War Graves Commission that created and looked after the First World War cemeteries in the region. I have been told that Sgt Kersch had two sons who were also in the United States Air Force as officers, Kirsch came with his family to the area in France in 1950 and later to Nieppe where he was in the Resistance movement in 1980's, I am told that he died last year. It would help me to find his family, his friends, as I am looking for photos of him during his career, and also read that he had prepared to write his memoires. This May the London Sunday Times Magazine is publishing a major story I have helped to produce on the collective memory of these school children, it will have a photo of Sgt Kersch and Mr Grady to illustrate that aspect.I believe his family still live on their ranch in Nevada. please respond on my email ... fox@magnum.worldnet.fr or you can write to me at the following; Mr James A Fox 45 Rue de Lourmel, Paris 75015, France. tel/fax 00 33 1 4577 3422 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Mar 19 21:02:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:02:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Bill Jones' mes.# 3 inVol 1 #207 Message-ID: <62.cd5db52.27e7cdea@aol.com> --part1_62.cd5db52.27e7cdea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/19/01 11:10:37 AM CST Bill Jones writes: > What caught my eye was that the document was indicating that there was one > minute time differences between groups (at least between groups in the 41st > CBW). This spacing seemed rather short. So I was curious whether this > target? Bill, One minute was a long time, when I flew 53 such missions. During the Berlin Airlift, missions were scheduled every fifteen (15) seconds (a plane was landing). I only flew 198 missions in C-54 type aircraft. cheers...Bill Bergeron > --part1_62.cd5db52.27e7cdea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/19/01 11:10:37 AM CST Bill Jones writes:

What caught my eye was that the document was indicating that there was one
minute time differences between groups (at least between groups in the 41st
CBW). This spacing seemed rather short. So I was curious whether this

spacing was maintained all the way to the

target?

Bill,
One minute was a long time, when I flew 53 such missions. During the
Berlin Airlift, missions were scheduled every fifteen (15) seconds (a plane
was landing). I only flew 198 missions in C-54 type aircraft.
cheers...Bill Bergeron

--part1_62.cd5db52.27e7cdea_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 05:03:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:03:05 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This and that Message-ID: <000501c0b0fb$0dbddb40$91bb9ace@mjpmtman> Last night watched History Channel's Suicide Mission - Ball turret. It is amazing how many combat films feature our "Trangle C". FYI-- Ran across a site www.usaaf.com or WWW.USAAF.COM [ both work] - click on 8th AF then on bomb groups. It lists all the groups and gives a summary of each. This may not be news to some [all?]. Didn't find a link(s) to any group site without entering the group number. [not to many good sites] Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 12:31:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:31:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] This and that Message-ID: <89.3eddc78.27e8a7ab@aol.com> Please, someone, help me with the Andy Rooney story about the dangers of the ball. Reports here, and elsewhere, have indicated that the ball was a safe (relatively speaking) duty station, and that it was easy (relatively speaking) to depart from the ball. Rooney says otherwise. What is the real story? Thanks. Larry Farrell Son of Lt. Lawrence C. Farrell, Sr. CP, Smith Crew, 1942-1943, 359th BS From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 15:52:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:52:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <000501c0b155$c0f21140$45bb9ace@mjpmtman> History Channel's - Suicide missions - belly turret did not seem to promote the szfety feature of the ball turret.!!!! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 17:31:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:31:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This and that In-Reply-To: <000501c0b0fb$0dbddb40$91bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > Last night watched History Channel's Suicide Mission - Ball turret. It is > amazing how many combat films feature our "Trangle C". > I think the combat footage on the History Channel pgm is the same as that in "Target for Today" and "Combat America", nearly all of which seems to be 303rd. (The footage taken from the ground shows other groups, but all of the combat footage seems to be 303rd.) I had assumed that this means that they are all using the footage that Clarke Gable produced??? I looked in Might in Flight, and if I remember right, I think it said that Gable flew in May of 43. However some of the planes that can be identified in the 3 documentaries were not flying at that time. Was there another time that Clarke Gable flew with the 303rd, or were there other film crews that went up with the 303rd? But back to the original topic, yes, it seems that almost every film that shows real combat footage shows the 303rd, even an episode of that Pappy Boyington Black Sheep squadron show showed him flying triangle C B-17s out in the Pacific! There must not be much in the way of real B-17 combat footage besides that which Clarke Gable made. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 18:39:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:39:31 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This and that In-Reply-To: <89.3eddc78.27e8a7ab@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010320083931.00908d60@ilhawaii.net> As you indicate, Safety is a relative term. I felt safer in the ball than out of it. It was easy to get out of IF you were not too big, it was not jammed, you had power to rotate the guns horizontal to exit outside the aircraft or vertical to exit inside if that was where your parachute was. Jim Walling At 07:31 AM 3/20/01 EST, you wrote: >Please, someone, help me with the Andy Rooney story about the dangers of the >ball. > >Reports here, and elsewhere, have indicated that the ball was a safe >(relatively speaking) duty station, and that it was easy (relatively >speaking) to depart from the ball. > >Rooney says otherwise. > >What is the real story? > >Thanks. > >Larry Farrell >Son of Lt. Lawrence C. Farrell, Sr. >CP, Smith Crew, 1942-1943, 359th BS > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 20:26:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:26:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - please ignore In-Reply-To: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:22:19 -0700 Message-ID: <28269-3AB7BCDE-7624@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> You passed the test with 100 percent. You deserve an award for making so many people happy. I'm referring to the many letters like the one from Katie Homrighausen who saw the photo of Ken Stephan. Is that photo on Ed Miller's CD Rom? I haven't been able to review ED's handiwork as yet because I have a MAC computer. You are the 303rd's Man of the Year. And Susan is our woman of the year. It is almost a month since my operation and the new hip is working out OK. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 20:51:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:51:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: Gentlemen: My opinion only. The show on TV showing the B17 making a belly landing and stating the ball turret gunner was there in is absolutely false. It just didn't happen. The ball turret was the safest position on the B17 crew. We had less ball turret causalities in the Ball than any other position in the airplane. Mickey Rooney stated he saw this happen because the plane had a hydraulic failure and hence they could not get the gear down and the ball wouldn't work because of the hydraulic failure. The truth is both the gear and the turret are electric. The only hydraulic on a B17 are the brakes and cowl flaps. If there was an electric failure both the gear and the ball can be operated with a hand crank. The ball could be turned by hand so the gunner could get into the waist or rotated up so he could bail out of the ball without getting into the plane. If necessary the crew could have chopped the ball open with their hatchet in 5 minutes. This is just another bunch of Hollywood False History or to put it more honestly A. Damn Lie. Jack Rencher . . From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 21:01:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:01:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - revisited In-Reply-To: <28269-3AB7BCDE-7624@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:22:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3AB762B1.19637.935E1B@localhost> Hal, > You passed the test with 100 percent. You deserve an award for making so > many people happy. I'm referring to the many letters like the one from > Katie Homrighausen who saw the photo of Ken Stephan. Is that photo on Ed > Miller's CD Rom? That photo is on the web page. Stephan was on the 359th Lawrence C. Thompson Crew. I love those kind of comments from our visitors. >You are the 303rd's Man of the Year. And > Susan is our woman of the year. Susan has my vote for sure! Thanks. >It is almost a month since my operation and the new hip is working That is good news. There is a local ambulance chaser lawyer here doing TV ads looking for people who had your same surgery during the last 5 years. Want his phone number? :-) Thanks, Hal.... we appreciate it. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 21:05:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:05:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:51:52 EST Message-ID: <28268-3AB7C612-9676@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Why this sudden love affair with Andy Rooney? He hates to be told he was wrong. Write him a letter and tell him he goofed. Chances are he won't acknowledge your letter. After all, he is Andy Rooney. He only talks to himself and anyone who only talks to himself does not have all of his marbles Hal Susskind. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 21:12:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:12:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - revisited In-Reply-To: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:01:21 -0700 Message-ID: <28269-3AB7C7B4-7684@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I have a lawyer. So do 25 other people in Austin. Today Sulzer came out with a story today saying there was nothing wrong with the prosthesis. They now claim that allof the peple who used their prosthesis screwed up. They are now blaming the doctors also. Looks like a long fight. Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 22:52:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:52:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Safety features -Ball turret Message-ID: <001a01c0b190$72712ac0$10bb9ace@mjpmtman> It is now 4:35PM and I didn't see this message on the web SO I'll resend it and hope I am not duplicating & fowling up cyberspace. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: Safety features -Ball turret > > Message: 7 > > From: "Maurice Paulk" > > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:52:20 -0600 > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > > > > History Channel's - Suicide missions - belly turret did not seem to > promote > > the safety feature of the ball turret.!!!! > > Maurice J. Paulk > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Soirry about that Lloyd --I think my statement came out the wrong way. My > intention was to infer that the ball turret was a durn poor place to be. I > probably should have said they did not mention any safety features - if > there were any! > > My memory again. - One of the ball turret gunners forgot to fasten his > safety belt and fell out of the turret backwards when the door [lock > ? -hinges?] gave way. The only thing that saved him was one of his heavy > boots was caught in the range stirrup. {It wasn't told to me - I only > heard - rumor again] > He pulled jimself back in and got back into the ship - mission aborted..- > That's the way I heard it. This was prior to the F-1 and F-2 Flying Suits - > He was wearing the heavy brown sheep-skin jackets , pants and boots with the > blue "Baby Bunting ".heated "long handles"---MJP > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 23:19:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:19:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: Message-ID: <000c01c0b194$38915a60$28914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Jack. Finding out the truth is why I signed on. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > Gentlemen: My opinion only. The show on TV showing the B17 making a belly > landing and stating the ball turret gunner was there in is absolutely false. > It just didn't happen. The ball turret was the safest position on the B17 > crew. We had less ball turret causalities in the Ball than any other > position in the airplane. Mickey Rooney stated he saw this happen because the > plane had a hydraulic failure and hence they could not get the gear down and > the ball wouldn't work because of the hydraulic failure. The truth is both > the gear and the turret are electric. The only hydraulic on a B17 are the > brakes and cowl flaps. > > If there was an electric failure both the gear and the ball can be > operated with a hand crank. The ball could be turned by hand so the gunner > could get into the waist or rotated up so he could bail out of the ball > without getting into the plane. If necessary the crew could have chopped the > ball open with their hatchet in 5 minutes. > This is just another bunch of Hollywood False History or to put it more > honestly A. Damn Lie. > Jack Rencher > > > > . > . > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Mar 20 23:21:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:21:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <28268-3AB7C612-9676@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001a01c0b194$8beb3e60$28914d0c@o3n4f8> How many tours did Andy Rooney fly in the ball? ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Susskind To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > Why this sudden love affair with Andy Rooney? He hates to be told he was > wrong. Write him a letter and tell him he goofed. Chances are he won't > acknowledge your letter. After all, he is Andy Rooney. He only talks to > himself and anyone who only talks to himself does not have all of his > marbles Hal Susskind. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 02:18:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:18:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <81.86bbbd3.27e96976@aol.com> Put it to bed, men! Safety was relative! Having spent a lot of hours down there over the course of 35 missions, I don't think it was necessarily any worse or any better than any other position, it was cramped and your ability to get out was dependent on help from others as was the case in all the positions , depending on the particular situation at the time. We were all exposed to the same hazards and the hand of fate played a signifigant role in each person's experiences. Bill Carter-358th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 03:31:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:31:21 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <000501c0b1b7$66ae3bc0$64bb9ace@mjpmtman> BILL CARTER WROTE:---- Put it to bed, men! Safety was relative! Having spent a lot of hours down there over the course of 35 missions, I don't think it was necessarily any worse or any better than any other position, it was cramped and your ability to get out was dependent on help from others as was the case in all the positions , depending on the particular situation at the time. We were all exposed to the same hazards and the hand of fate played a signifigant role in each person's experiences. Bill Carter-358th ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ THAT IS WELL PUT BILL AND I apologize if you think my remarks were aimed at the ball turret gunners in general. NO WAY!!---What I say doesn't always come out the way intend it to.. My remarks were directed at the History Channel. The safety features such as the hand crank and the axe were never mentioned. They dwelled on the sensational rather than the actual.. I have the greatest respect for you air crewmen. I don't think I would have had the intestinal fortitude even in my younger years. [It's asleep] Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 03:49:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:49:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <81.86bbbd3.27e96976@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AB824BA.CC39191E@attglobal.net> W. Carter Well said, Mr. Carter, but lest you want to curtail the ability of everyone to speak about their "experiences" I would not caution them to "put it to bed" as it were. These are all heroes and served in their various positions. very well. At times some positions were worse than others, but all were dangerous. Fate played some good hands and also some bad hands. But let these heroes express their experiences with each other and I think you will feel better. Cheers, old buddy and comrade-in-arms. As for me, I was very glad to have that attentive fellow in the ball under my belly. Bill Heller WCarter516@aol.com wrote: > Put it to bed, men! Safety was relative! Having spent a lot of hours down > there over the course of 35 missions, I don't think it was necessarily any > worse or any better than any other position, it was cramped and your ability > to get out was dependent on help from others as was the case in all the > positions , depending on the particular situation at the time. We were all > exposed to the same hazards and the hand of fate played a signifigant role in > each person's experiences. > Bill Carter-358th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 13:31:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:31:07 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <8c.3fdaa42.27ea071b@aol.com> Re/Rooney: It took a couple of weeks, allowing for the guy's busy schedule, but I did get a decent reply from His-Andiness, and he was complimentary......"I didn't realize the guys on those bomber crews were such a literate bunch...." referring to the number of manuscripts he's received from guys like us and "....I feel badly about not following up for fear of curtailing my own writing...." or thereabouts. Comments made relative to my sending him my book "Last Raid". Cheers, Bob Hand, (B) Fink's Crew, 303/360 35M From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 15:06:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:06:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <8c.3fdaa42.27ea071b@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501c0b218$78a03b60$2c09f4cc@e0y0k4> Bob, what address did you use. I sent him a letter last year, through the network, and didn't get an answer. He was a correspondent on a couple of missions that my father was on, and I wanted to see if he had any notes from those days. Thnx. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > Re/Rooney: It took a couple of weeks, allowing for the guy's busy schedule, > but I did get a decent reply from His-Andiness, and he was > complimentary......"I didn't realize the guys on those bomber crews were such > a literate bunch...." referring to the number of manuscripts he's received > from guys like us and "....I feel badly about not following up for fear of > curtailing my own writing...." or thereabouts. Comments made relative to my > sending him my book "Last Raid". Cheers, Bob Hand, (B) Fink's Crew, > 303/360 35M From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 20:40:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:40:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET In-Reply-To: Bhandsr@aol.com's message of Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:31:07 EST Message-ID: <8173-3AB911C4-967@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> TO Bob Hand Re: andy rooney......strange as my message may have been, I have good relations with Mr. rooney. He answered my last and only letter in a week. i wrote about his search for a job in new york about 1948 and getting caught in a snowstorm. i was in new york at the time and remembered the storm quite well. i sent him a copy of our newletter which featured one of our people falling out of his b-17 at 25,000 feet w/o his chute and surviving. he didn't agree with the story. he later proved to be correct. he flew his missions with the 306th during the war. many years ago when there was a bombardiers association there was a feud between rooney and the associaton about something he wrote. normally he doesn't answer unsolicited mail. you must have caught him at a good time. his book about the war has some errors in it. i doubt he would answer me if i tried to correct him. he is good at what he does on cbs on sundays and he sure doesn't encourage anyone to communicate with him...and i take him at his word...hal susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Mar 21 20:45:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:45:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] I. P. (Initial Point) In-Reply-To: WDK19@aol.com's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:59:34 EST Message-ID: <8174-3AB912E5-851@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> to brooklyn bill thanks for your cards. my hip feels great. i hope to graduate from my walker to a cane soon. next time i go to new york i'll give you a call. my son lives in the chelsea section of manhattan. hal susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 00:07:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:07:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: amen. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 13:52:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:52:54 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <22.139a7a0f.27eb5db6@aol.com> Rooney: @CBS NEWS, 524 W.57th St., NY 10019...phone (212) 975-4321 Will try to get his home number for you. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 14:05:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:05:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <61.c6f4efe.27eb60b8@aol.com> How well I remember the blizzard of '48 and getting stuck in the city under two feet of snow with my venerable '36 Dodge. Hope you're feeling better and better...sounds like you've got the situation under control. Good wishes to you, and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 14:12:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:12:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET Message-ID: <45.3f3e36e.27eb6255@aol.com> His home address, given me confidentially (I'm a bad boy!) is 254 Rowayton Ave., Rowayton, CT 06853. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 14:16:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:16:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <45.3f3e36e.27eb6255@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c0b2da$b6d37560$7009f4cc@e0y0k4> Nice work, Bob. I'll write him a letter, and get it in the mail. Thnx. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 6:12 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > His home address, given me confidentially (I'm a bad boy!) is 254 Rowayton > Ave., Rowayton, CT 06853. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 19:14:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:14:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET In-Reply-To: Bhandsr@aol.com's message of Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:05:44 EST Message-ID: <12981-3ABA4F01-1032@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> bob hand that was some snowstorm in '48. i fell about 10 times on my way home from the subway. i got married in '48 and got recalled to active duty in 49. i got stationed in bermuda. no more snowstorms. thanks for the kind words. hal susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 19:58:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:58:22 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <12981-3ABA4F01-1032@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <002701c0b30a$73526b40$1ef833cf@richards> HI HAL: GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE DOING WELL .TALK ABOUT SNOW STORMS REMINDS ME OF HOME IN ROCHESTER NEW YORK AND BEING STATIONED IN ROME N.Y. IN THE LATE FORTIES AND EARLY FIFTIES .IT WAS HARD TO BELIEVE THE AMOUNT OF SNOW WE GOT . NOW I'M IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA AND ONLY SEE SNOW ON THE MOUNTAIN TOPS ,THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH FOR ME. SPIDER SMITH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > bob hand that was some > snowstorm in '48. i fell about 10 times on my way home from the subway. > i got married in '48 and got recalled to active duty in 49. i got > stationed in bermuda. no more snowstorms. thanks for the kind words. > hal susskind > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 20:57:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:57:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <12981-3ABA4F01-1032@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3ABA6745.457FB04F@attglobal.net> Hal Susskind and Rae ... Speaking of Bermuda, old friend ... do you recall "finding" that Isle for us when we went from Casablanca to Hamilton Field? Those were the days, my friend, I hope they never end ...... Cheers! WCH Harold Susskind wrote: > bob hand that was some > snowstorm in '48. i fell about 10 times on my way home from the subway. > i got married in '48 and got recalled to active duty in 49. i got > stationed in bermuda. no more snowstorms. thanks for the kind words. > hal susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 21:43:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:43:10 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET References: <12981-3ABA4F01-1032@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <002701c0b30a$73526b40$1ef833cf@richards> Message-ID: <007201c0b319$710e70e0$720110ac@Betac.com> Spider - I guess you missed the two big ones in Feb 57. I grew up in Albany, and remember delivering my newspapers (as long as I received them; don't know how they got them to me) in several feet of snow, even tho school was out for several days each time. Took me about 3 hours to do a 45 minute route. Not many places gets as much snow as upstate NY. Sorry for boring everybody. Cheers. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BALL TURRET > HI HAL: > GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE DOING WELL .TALK ABOUT SNOW STORMS REMINDS ME OF HOME > IN ROCHESTER NEW YORK AND BEING STATIONED IN ROME N.Y. IN THE LATE FORTIES > AND EARLY FIFTIES .IT WAS HARD TO BELIEVE THE AMOUNT OF SNOW WE GOT . NOW > I'M IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA AND ONLY SEE SNOW ON THE MOUNTAIN TOPS ,THAT'S > CLOSE ENOUGH FOR ME. > SPIDER SMITH From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Mar 22 21:49:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:49:17 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th returns to England! Message-ID: <007301c0b319$f4777e40$720110ac@Betac.com> Don't know if any of you were that the 8th Air Force is once again in England. Result of some AF reorganization actions. Brian Below is copy of press release: Jan. 31, 2001 RELEASE NO. 01-05-01 488th IS realignment heralds return of 8th Air Force RAF MILDENHALL, Suffolk - The 488th Intelligence Squadron officially became part of Air Combat Command under 8th Air Force in a formal command realignment ceremony at Duxford's Imperial War Museum outside of Cambridge Feb. 1, 2001. The realignment marks a return of 8th Air Force to the United Kingdom, which traces its lineage back to the U.S. Army Air Force, and the WWII era "Mighty Eighth" Air Corps when it was known as VIII Bomber Command. During WWII, the "Mighty Eighth," under the leadership of such names as Generals Ira Eaker and Jimmy Doolittle, boasted total peak strength of more than 200,000 people and 3,000 aircraft, which fought and flew for the allies in Europe against the Axis powers. Units from 8th Air Force wouldn't see combat in Europe again until Operation 'ALLIED FORCE' more than 50 years later, when B-52 Stratofortresses, B1-B Lancers and B-2 Stealth Bombers flew in support of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization against the federal Republic of Yugoslavia from RAF Fairford and Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri. This new command realignment marks the overall transition of the Air Intelligence Agency to Air Combat Command with it's subordinate wings, the 67th Intelligence Operations Wing and 70th Intelligence Wing, falling directly under Eighth Air Force. (The 488th Intelligence Squadron is part of the 67th IOW.) The move creates the only information operations and bomber numbered Air Force in the Air Force. (A numbered AF is an organization with more than one wing with a broad continuing mission, like 3rd Air Force headquartered at RAF Mildenhall.) The ceremony took place at 10 a.m. inside the American Museum. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Mar 23 18:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:23:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th returns to England! Message-ID: thanks for ifo. great to know it is still being recognized by young military minds. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Mar 24 03:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 22:35:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th returns to England! Message-ID: <76.8d1617c.27ed7005@cs.com> --part1_76.8d1617c.27ed7005_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, Thank you for the information. I cannot think of a more appropriate place for the 8th Air Force to be. John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_76.8d1617c.27ed7005_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian,
      Thank you for the information. I cannot think of a more appropriate
place for the 8th Air Force to be.

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_76.8d1617c.27ed7005_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 14:02:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:02:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? Message-ID: In this and other lists, I've read several posts from people who refer to things written in their log book, or their father's log book. I have found lots of interesting things among the items that my father saved from the war, but there was no log book among the items. However my father was the type of person, that if he had a log book, he certainly would have never thrown it away. So I am curious, were these log books something official that all pilots, bombardiers, and navigators kept (these seem to be the positions that I've seen people mention log books for), or were they just personal diaries that a few people kept on their own? If they were official, did some people just keep them after the war and others turn them in? My son, who is a pilot, has a log book showing when, where and how long he flew in different planes, so I was expecting to find something like that among my father's things, but never did. My father only maintained his private pilot's license for a couple years after the war, but I would have thought that he would have had some kind of records of air time, and if he had such a thing, I know he would have kept it. Anyway, if these log books were standard, how big of an item were they? Were they big hard covered books, or just loose pages. Ie what am I looking for, when I look through old boxes? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 14:15:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:15:05 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? Message-ID: <20010325.081506.-421921.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, I think they must have been personal diaries. Regards Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 14:27:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:27:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? Message-ID: <28.130326ed.27ef5a41@aol.com> Look for a little black book about 5"x7" that says "LOG BOOK" in gold letters...at least that's what mine looked like. In it, I kept 303rd mission number, personal mission number, A/C number, pilot, copilot, target for today, bomb load types, take off time, landing time, total air time and remarks. Good to have when comparing other log books. Mine was reproduced in the book "Last Raid". Cheers, Bob Hand (B) 303/360, Fink's Crew, 35M. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 15:10:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:10:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? Message-ID: Bill, As I remember when I was there the U.S. Army Air Corps Kept a log book on pilots anyway that had a monthly sheet with your flying time, type of Aircraft, Position on crew, Instrument or visual, and some other information. I think it was called a Form 5. I still have mine. I will dig it out and look at it and report back to you if I am wrong. Of course any one could keep their own and many did. I think we were required to in Cadets. It was blue and about 3 X 4 Inches and 3/4 or so inches thick. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 15:44:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:44:31 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 25 mission rule Message-ID: --part1_e.ab08a2c.27ef6c5f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI To All: I have another question. In Jan. 1944 was the 25 mission rule still in effect. Also when did it go to 30 mission and than 35. Thank again. Brooklyn Bill --part1_e.ab08a2c.27ef6c5f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI To All:
    I have another question. In Jan. 1944 was the 25 mission rule still in
effect.
Also when did it go to 30 mission and than 35. Thank again.

Brooklyn Bill --part1_e.ab08a2c.27ef6c5f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 17:19:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:19:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] crew positions KIA Message-ID: <001d01c0b54f$d0df1aa0$313f22d1@billowen> Seeing the comments and questions about relative safety of the different crew positions aroused my curiousity. So I went through the entire personnel list from A to Z and wrote down the date of each man Killed In Action. I was pretty surprised that the numbers are so close. Seems that the Pilot-Copilot positions were most vulnerable (no doubt due to the front end attacks by fighters). The waist gunners were the safest since most attacks were from the front or rear and they were not directly exposed to either. It might be interesting to break it down month by month but I didn't take time to do that. For statistical purposes I put the Togliers in with the Bombardiers. Bill Owen 303rd BG KIA 1942 1943 1944 1945 TOTALS % of Total KIA Pilots & Copilots 5 58 98 25 186 14.20 Bombardiers 2 25(*26) 39(*43) 4(*8) 70(*79) 12.06 Navigators 2 21 45 11 79 12.06 Engineers 2 22 44 13 81 12.37 Radio 2 25 47 11 85 12.97 Waist Gunners 6 57 64 7 134 10.23 Ball Turret Gunners 3 23 42 9 77 11.76 Tail Gunners 2 27 38 12 79 12.06 S/Jam ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 YRC ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 Photo 0 3 0 0 3 0.46 Toglier(add to Bombardier)0 (1) (4) (4) (9) see Bombardier 611 ? 0 0 3 0 3 0.46 612 ? 0 0 3 0 3 0.46 V/INTR ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 Stat/O ? 0 0 1 0 1 0.15 Observer 0 2 0 0 2 0.31 -------- ------- ------- ------- -------- --------- TOTALS: 24 264 428 99 815 100.0 (* Toglier added to Bombardier total - same position?) The Pilot-Copilot positions were combined for number of KIA's and half that number used to determine % KIA. Waist gunners were done the same way. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 17:32:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:32:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] crew positions KIA Message-ID: <003801c0b551$a246c7e0$313f22d1@billowen> I see my first try at copying and pasting didn't work out. I'm not real good with this computer so I'll have to try and figure out how to do it and try again later. I wrote the report on Microsoft Word and maybe it was too big (wide) to paste on the Email screen. One of you computer men tell me what to do and I'll try to get it right. Thanks, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 18:16:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:16:00 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 25 mission rule References: Message-ID: <3ABE35DF.69A59752@attglobal.net> --------------003D3D8B036BFCAAFC77CCCD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brooklyn Bill ... So far as I know, in January of 1944 the 25 missions rule was stil in effect. It changed to 30 and then 35 sometime after that .... I do know that in January of 1944 I was still "hoping" to get my 25 in. However, it was in June of 1944 that I was listed in the "35 Mission Club" ... (Might In Flight book by Gobrecht). Somewhere there should be a positive answer to your query. Cheers! Bill Heller WDK19@aol.com wrote: > HI To All: > I have another question. In Jan. 1944 was the 25 mission rule > still in > effect. > Also when did it go to 30 mission and than 35. Thank again. > > Brooklyn Bill --------------003D3D8B036BFCAAFC77CCCD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brooklyn Bill ...

So far as I know, in January of 1944 the 25 missions rule was stil in effect. It changed to 30 and then 35 sometime after that .... I do know that in January of 1944 I was still "hoping" to get my 25 in. However, it was in June of 1944 that I was listed in the "35 Mission Club" ... (Might In Flight book by Gobrecht). Somewhere there should be a positive answer to your query.

Cheers!

Bill Heller

WDK19@aol.com wrote:

HI To All:
I have another question. In Jan. 1944 was the 25 mission rule still in
effect.
Also when did it go to 30 mission and than 35. Thank again.
Brooklyn Bill

--------------003D3D8B036BFCAAFC77CCCD-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 18:20:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:20:38 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? References: Message-ID: <3ABE36F6.91ACDF51@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Don't kow about wartime "log books" but under FAR (formerly CAR) a pilot was REQUIRED to maintain a logbook. I kept one from when I soloed in 1936 and kept it also THROUGHOUT the war. In later life, under law, I also kept it as an airline pilot. It shows today 33,000 command pilot hours in it. (as required by FAR). Cheers! BILL HELLER Bill Jones wrote: > In this and other lists, I've read several posts from people who > refer to things written in their log book, or their father's log book. I > have found lots of interesting things among the items that my father > saved from the war, but there was no log book among the items. > However my father was the type of person, that if he had a log > book, he certainly would have never thrown it away. So I am > curious, were these log books something official that all pilots, > bombardiers, and navigators kept (these seem to be the positions > that I've seen people mention log books for), or were they just > personal diaries that a few people kept on their own? If they were > official, did some people just keep them after the war and others > turn them in? > My son, who is a pilot, has a log book showing when, where and > how long he flew in different planes, so I was expecting to find > something like that among my father's things, but never did. My > father only maintained his private pilot's license for a couple years > after the war, but I would have thought that he would have had > some kind of records of air time, and if he had such a thing, I know > he would have kept it. Anyway, if these log books were standard, > how big of an item were they? Were they big hard covered books, > or just loose pages. Ie what am I looking for, when I look through > old boxes? > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 19:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:20:17 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] crew positions KIA In-Reply-To: <003801c0b551$a246c7e0$313f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <3ABDE281.31038.D5836E@localhost> Bill, Attach a copy of your Word document in an email to me at glm@xmission.com I'll make it available to everyone. > I see my first try at copying and pasting didn't work out. I'm not real good > with this computer so I'll have to try and figure out how to do it and try > again later. I wrote the report on Microsoft Word and maybe it was too big > (wide) to paste on the Email screen. One of you computer men tell me what to > do and I'll try to get it right. > Thanks, Bill Owen > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 22:05:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:05:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:10:09 EST Message-ID: <4858-3ABE6B90-7004@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> jack as usual you are correct. i believe all rated personnel had form 5s. after each flight the pilot was required to list all the personnel that were on the flight. he turned that in or the crew chief may have turned it in to the operations section of each squadron they made the entries in your form five. there was a separate page for each month. i believe combat missons were marked with a C. unless you were lucky and held your own form five it is with your military records in st. louis. i wrote for mine a year ago and i'm still waiting for an answer. cheers. hal susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 22:32:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:32:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] 25 mission rule In-Reply-To: WDK19@aol.com's message of Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:44:31 EST Message-ID: <4862-3ABE720E-2221@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> bill re: 25 mission tour. supposedly jan 1,1944 was the start of the 30 mission tour but I don't think it was strictly enforced until a month or so later. D-Day June 6, 1944 was the effective date for the start of the 35 mission tour. I bow to Harrry Gobrecht on this one. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 22:32:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:32:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 25 mission rule Message-ID: --part1_dc.3c5d144.27efcc13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill: Thanks for the answer. Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_dc.3c5d144.27efcc13_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill:
Thanks for the answer. Take care.
Brooklyn Bill --part1_dc.3c5d144.27efcc13_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 22:36:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:36:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] log books? In-Reply-To: <4858-3ABE6B90-7004@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:10:09 EST Message-ID: > jack as usual you are correct. i believe all rated personnel > had form 5s. after each flight the pilot was required to list all the > personnel that were on the flight. he turned that in or the crew chief > may have turned it in to the operations section of each squadron they > made the entries in your form five. there was a separate page for each > month. i believe combat missons were marked with a C. unless you were > lucky and held your own form five it is with your military records in > st. louis. i wrote for mine a year ago and i'm still waiting for an > answer. cheers. hal susskind I thought that ALL these records were destroyed in the 1973 fire? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Mar 25 22:37:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:37:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 25 mission rule Message-ID: --part1_a.ab20464.27efcd46_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: Thank for the information. I'm am trying to get all my T's cross and i's dotted. Hope you are feeling OK. Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_a.ab20464.27efcd46_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit