From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 01:37:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:37:07 -0500 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Question on a plane # and name Message-ID: <000701c0ea32$fe1dbcc0$0f3f22d1@billowen> Hi Dave, My brother's crew flew probably the same route as your uncle. I think it was referred to as the southern route. They left from Florida on 3-6-43 and went via Puerto Rico, British Guiana, Brazil, Ascension Islands, Africa (Dakar), Morroco (Marakech) and finally landed at St. Eval near Newquay, England. And, yes, they lost the plane that they flew over in. They were disappointed that they had to give up their plane. I understand that it was pretty common for that to happen. As far as what happened to their original plane, I'm sure someone who has access to all the B-17 records will answer that for you. It probably ended up in a different bomb group. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tooley, Dave" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question on a plane # and name > Hi list, > I need your help. I have just received a copy of my uncle's crew photo from > the wife of one of his crew. I am hoping the list members can help me to > answer some questions. I have searched thru the web site with no luck, so I > am looking for some direction. > > 1) The picture was taken in Yun-dum, Morocco just south of Casablanca. > Was it common to go to England via Africa in early '43? Would there be > another crew photo taken in England? This photo only had 8 of 10 members. > 2) The plane # is 25407 (42-5407). According to the mission reports he > never flew in that plane. How can I find out what happened to that plane or > if it was his? > 3) According to a note in a photo the name of the plane flown by this > crew was "The Grapes of Wrath". However according to the mission reports, > this name is not mentioned. Nor is it mentioned on the site. Again the > question, how can I track this down? > > Was it common for a crew to bring a plane over from the states and then end > up flying something else? > > Thanks for your help!! > > Dave Tooley > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 01:58:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:58:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flight Engineer Message-ID: <81.b5cc900.284842cb@aol.com> --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, I read your description of a flight engineer, and I think you did a terrific job. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy, and he described the job exactly like you did. Terry Lucas --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, I read your description of a flight engineer, and I think you did a
terrific job. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy, and he
described the job exactly like you did.
Terry Lucas --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:23:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <41.c272d0d.284856ac@aol.com> --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well..now that I know what a Flight Engineer does, I'd like to get more information on exactly what the Navigator does. My father, Joseph McLane, was a Navigator for a crew in the 360BS. Specifically, what kind of training is given for this position? Do they ever pilot planes or fill in for other positions? Where exactly in the plane are they located? Who do they report to versus who reports to them? Although I certainly know my father, what in your opinions, are the personality characteristics of a truly great Navigator? What are their main strengths and skills? Just curious....Thanks to all in advance! Sharon McLane --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well..now that I know what a Flight Engineer does, I'd like to get more
information on exactly what the Navigator does.  My father, Joseph McLane,
was a Navigator for a crew in the 360BS.  Specifically, what kind of training
is given for this position?  Do they ever pilot planes or fill in for other
positions? Where exactly in the plane are they located?  Who do they report
to versus who reports to them?  Although I certainly know my father, what in
your opinions, are the personality characteristics of a truly great
Navigator? What are their main strengths and skills?

Just curious....Thanks to all in advance!

Sharon McLane --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:39:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:39:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <8a.772219c.28485a52@aol.com> Dear Sharon, I had a friend who was a flight Navigator. He told me that the Navigator is the one who yells to the pilot "pull up, Quick!!" :) I know it's not much help, but, I thought it was funny. Good Luck, Christina Ramirez From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:55:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:55:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... Message-ID: <67.14d6b314.28485e36@gateway.net> Hello Jack Rencher, Thank you so much for adding the list of duties of the Flight Engineers. My husband was 21 years old when he was at Molesworth and it amazes me that men that young and even younger could handle the duties that all of the crew members carried out. With that kind of dedication, it's no wonder that you fine young men won that war for all of us. The 303rd BGA and the "Talk Site" are my favorite sites and I'm very proud to be a small part of them. Please know how very much you are all appreciated. God has blessed our America. Best regards and thank you again, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 10:33:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:33:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flight Engineer Message-ID: <95.b7c0dbb.2848bb7d@aol.com> Terry, Thank you for your kind words. The engineer on a B24 was a very important job. You can be proud of your Dad. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 12:14:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:14:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <13.1668da3e.2848d321@aol.com> Dear Sharon: A map is flat, usually a flat piece of paper. The world we travel on is a ball so the surface is not flat. The Navigators job is to know where we are and were we want to go on that ball, transfer it to that piece of paper and figure out the best way to get there. He reports to the pilot. In a combat formation he would also file a report with the Squadron or Group after each mission. There are several methods of navigation that he can use and on most flights of any distance he would possibly use several of them. I don't spell well so I hope my computer can help me. They are Celestial, Radio, Dead Roconing and pilotage. In England we had a Gee Box which is a form of radio. We also had a radio compass also called an ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) and in the old days a low frequency (A and N) range which have been replaced thank heavens A good navigator should be knowledgeable about all these and know how to use them and also be knowledgeable about meteorology (Weather) Wind clouds and various types of precipitation. He should also know about fuel consumption of his plane and the skill and experience of his pilot Dead Reckoning (DR) is using your compass, flying a certain distance at certain time at a certain speed, compensating for the wind and you should be there. Celestial is shooting a fix from the stars to see where you are. It is most useful at night as the stars are out and mostly used over ocean flights. Pilotage is just looking at the flat map and following along your route on the round dirt under you so the Navigator needs a place on the plane where he can see up and down. SO. In a B17 he was stationed up in the nose with the bombardier so he could look out the big Plexiglas (Lucite) nose cone. Then he has a little Plexiglas dome above his head so he can take his sextant and shoot a fix if his pilot can hold the plane steady enough long enough Most pilots have to be somewhat navigators (except celestial) But navigators do not have to be pilots. There is no reason they couldn't be. I tried to teach our navigator to fly but he did not want to. In formation The navigators job is not to plot the course.(other than the Lead plane) but by using the above methods keep track of where we are at all times so if we have to fly home alone we know exactly where we are so he can guide us around the heavy flak areas and get us back to Molesworth in one piece. Navigators should be smart, Patient, Pray a lot, be good at math and an E6B computer. and know how to read a map (Lamberts, polar steriographics,Macators and road maps) It also helps if they have a Damn good pilot and copilot and very damn good gunners. Every body reports to the Navigator when they get lost especially of when he has the sandwiches in his hand warmer. Sharon I hope I have answered all your questions. You can be very proud of your father. The 360thBS was one GOOD outfit. Good night dear Girl. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 13:39:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:39:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator In-Reply-To: <13.1668da3e.2848d321@aol.com> Message-ID: > A map is flat, usually a flat piece of paper. The world we travel on is > a ball so the surface is not flat. The Navigators job is to know where we > are and were we want to go on that ball, transfer it to that piece of paper > and figure out the best way to get there. ...... > ........ > There are several methods of navigation that he can use and on most > flights of any distance he would possibly use several of them. I don't spell > well so I hope my computer can help me. They are Celestial, Radio, Dead > Roconing and pilotage. In England we had a Gee Box which is a form of radio. > We also had a radio compass also called an ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) > and in the old days a low frequency (A and N) range which have been replaced > thank heavens A good navigator should be knowledgeable about all these I'm curious about what happened when there were both a regular navigator and a GH navigator and/or perhaps a MN on a mission (I guess these would only be on a lead or dep-ld ship). Ie did these different types of navigators work together, or did they do their own job and only communicate when one had a problem? I assume these other navigators must have been located in the radio room for space reasons, (or were they located up front too?), so I'm confused as to how they could have co-operated. > ..... Navigators should be smart, Patient, Pray a lot, be good at math and > an E6B computer. Is the E6B something like http://wejones.ftdata.com/Fl-comp1.jpg , or did navigators use something different? This thing was a circular slide rule flight computer of some kind, apparently used by pilots. I gave it to my son, who is a pilot, after scanning a picture of it. I think I figured out many of it's functions, but not all. BTW, the other side of it is a time/speed/distance computer. I get the impression that this side is used to convert between ground speed and indicated air speed, and do density altitude, pressure altitude, calculations, etc? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 10:47:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:47:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: radio ops Message-ID: <005401c0ea7f$df5c7ae0$c41b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Re: radio ops > Jim, I agree with your earlier statement.The converstion sure got spicy over some warmed up sandwiches. On the bright side, you got some interesting replies from some folks that don't usually > contribute, and as a result we learned alot about what the radio operators > responsiblities were. ( and that the inflight meals were not assigned to any > particular "stewardess" {grin}) > The Molesworth tape deal is wrapping up the last rounds. The next to the > last "out West" address is Richard Young. When he gets the tape I will put > you two guys in touch to work out a fair and equitable arrrangement for > getting the tape to Hawaii. Meanwhile, very best regards. Lloyd. I am sending this via the 303rd as my server claims he cannot fwd e-mail to Hawaii. Katmandu, no sweat; Hawaii, no can do. Time to go shopping I guess. LG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 17:10:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:10:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: Right you are, James....anyone without a trace of humor in his body had an unbelievably difficult time of the mission routine. The guys in our NIssen received an incredible amount of packages of food from home, including fruitcakes (with the hole in the middle for spritzing with scotch), and I'm sure some of the stuff made its way aboard for the homebound snack. I always tucked a peanutbutter sandwich and an apple inside my shirt. To each his own. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 18:18:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:18:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <18.d6ded75.28492868@aol.com> Sharon - on a flight one day I had the ball gunner call me with -"pull up quick" so its just not the navigator! Clyde Henning - pilot From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 18:45:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:45:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <21.c7b5b17.28492eaa@aol.com> --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I think all crew members are very important, however what about the Ops officer?. On my second tour, I was an Ops officer. Later on my tour of 13 additional missions, when you are a lead pilot, you are lucky to fly maybe one or two missions a month. So the Ops officer sets the mission, wakes up the crew and does a lot of training. Another thing is that pilots like John Casello and Bob Lynch gave me excellent advice. That's why I am here, 83 plus years later, living today after all that I went through (always fly good formations). cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
I think all crew members are very important, however what about the Ops
officer?. On my second tour, I was an Ops officer. Later on my tour of 13
additional missions, when you are a lead pilot, you are lucky to fly maybe
one or two missions a month. So the Ops officer sets the mission, wakes up
the crew and does a lot of training. Another thing is that pilots like John
Casello and Bob Lynch gave me excellent advice. That's why I am here, 83 plus
years later, living today after all that I went through (always fly good
formations).
cheers
Bill Bergeron --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:25:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:25:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <79.15968f67.2849382a@aol.com> Bill Jones, On a B17 I would think if there were 2 navigators they would both be in the nose. They would need an altimeter, Airspeed indicator Magnetic & gyro compass & ADF. I doubt if these were in installed in most B17 Radio. rooms and they couldn't' look out at the ground very well or shoot a Celestial fix. I'm sorry, I don't know what an MN is. The GN would probably do most of his work on the bomb run or on an instrument landing so he might work more closely with the bombardier and the pilot than with the other navigator. They could use the Gee in route if the target was not to deep in enemy territory. There was room in the nose for three people. There is no reason they couldn't cooperate, Work together or help each other unless they just didn't like each other or one was conservative and the dumb one a liberal. The boss would probably be the one with the most rank, but there could be an exception here. They would communicate through the intercom. Even the tail gunner would know what was going on up in the nose if he wasn't to busy shooting. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:39:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:39:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator In-Reply-To: <79.15968f67.2849382a@aol.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 01, at 14:25, Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, On a B17 I would think if there were 2 navigators they would both > be in the nose. They would need an altimeter, Airspeed indicator Magnetic & > gyro compass & ADF. I doubt if these were in installed in most B17 Radio. > rooms and they couldn't' look out at the ground very well or shoot a > Celestial fix. I'm sorry, I don't know what an MN is. The GN would probably > do most of his work on the bomb run or on an instrument landing so he might > work more closely with the bombardier and the pilot than with the other > navigator. They could use the Gee in route if the target was not to deep in > enemy territory. There was room in the nose for three people. There is no > reason they couldn't cooperate, OK, thanks. When I walked through the touring B-17s, it didn't look like there was enough room up in the nose for another person, so I just assumed that the Gee equipment would be back in the radio room. I assumed that the Gee box was fairly big, as I thought it was similar to an old oscilloscope, which used to be big pieces of equipment. Part of my problem is that I am about 250lbs, and the thing that impresses me most about B-17s was how little space there was in there, however, for young guys who were in shape, it probably seemed a lot more roomy. The MN was the term I got off the loading lists for the Mickey Navigators, ie the PFF operators. I guess they were used more on the bomb runs, but I've heard comments to the effect that they were of help for navigating as well. I guess it would make sense that they would be up near the bombardier as well, but I really can't imagine having 4 people and equipment up there. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:50:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:50:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: I know I am starting a Dresden firestorm with this question, but here goes. Over the years I have heard 8th AF veterans blast Kathryn Wylder's remake of her father's orginal Memphis Belle. I would like to know specifically what was technically wrong with the movie. I have heard everything from dress to intercom procedures, but what else specifically. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 20:03:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:03:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Micky Operators Message-ID: Do we have any Micky operators on this chat ring? When you looked at the CRT in the airplane, what did the CRT show? Did it show a wave like a heart monitor, or what? I know H2X worked better over coastal targets and targets with inland waterways because of the land/water contrast, but I've always been curious as to what actually appeared on the Micky Operator's screen, and then how this data translated into bomb release. I saw a show in the History Channel a long time ago that showed the secret war of radar, and they showed a couple of CRT that had what appeared to be a mass of clutter, sort of like a television screen when it goes off the air at night. I've never figured out how you could bomb a target based on that kind of information. (And no, I don't believe everything I see and hear on the History Channel either. Some of their stuff should not even be public it is so bad and off base.) Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 21:47:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:47:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Op. Message-ID: <001301c0eadc$1655cb80$39a50ed0@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is lots of bull being said about the radio operators. The RO on = our crew did the duties he was trained for as did the rest of the crew = members.If the RO warmed and passed out the sandwitches none of them = came back to the TG in the 30 mission tour that I completed. LC ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is lots of bull being said about = the radio=20 operators. The RO on our crew did the duties he was trained for as did = the rest=20 of the crew members.If the  RO warmed and passed out the = sandwitches none=20 of them came back to the TG in the 30 mission tour that I completed.=20 LC
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 22:11:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:11:56 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010601111156.0089e4b0@ilhawaii.net> Bob Hand, Thanksfor your always interesting comments and I wanted to let you know that my wife just ordered a copy of your book for my 80th birthday. I wil be watching the post office. Jim Walling At 12:10 PM 6/1/01 EDT, you wrote: >Right you are, James....anyone without a trace of humor in his body had an >unbelievably difficult time of the mission routine. The guys in our NIssen >received an incredible amount of packages of food from home, including >fruitcakes (with the hole in the middle for spritzing with scotch), and I'm >sure some of the stuff made its way aboard for the homebound snack. I always >tucked a peanutbutter sandwich and an apple inside my shirt. To each his >own. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:17:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:17:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <6b.15379707.28497c91@aol.com> I WAS ABOUT 6 Feet and weighed about 185. Some were a bit taller than me but I doubt if very many were much heavier. I am about 5ft 9 inches and weigh about 170 now. I think most of it has come from my brain. It has sure gone to pot, but my mussels are much weaker now too so it might have come for my seafood Best Wishes' Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:28:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:28:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. Yuck, Yuck Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:40:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:40:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <20.1750a514.284981e6@aol.com> Bill B. If you knew Robert J. Lynch you are an automatic friend of mine. He is a sharp fine man. Was a Superb operation officer and a true Gentleman without an act of Congress? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 02:07:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JamesWalsh) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:07:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] James D. Walsh Message-ID: <003001c0eb01$a02d6c80$bfdee341@jamela5> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings: I was the Co-pilot on 1st Lt. John Van Wie's aircraft when we = were 'Shot Down" over Hamburg Germany on 25 July 1943. I stayed in the = Air Force and retired 31 Oct 1968. Elaine and I lived in Mitchell SD for = 12 years, Bella Vista AR for 15 years and are presently living in = Butterfield Trail Village a Life Care Retirement Facility in = Fayetteville AR. All for now. Glad to be aboard. Jim and Elaine ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings: I was the Co-pilot on 1st Lt. John Van = Wie's=20 aircraft when we were 'Shot Down" over Hamburg Germany on 25 July=20 1943.  I stayed in the Air Force and retired 31 Oct 1968. = Elaine and I=20 lived in Mitchell SD for 12 years, Bella Vista AR for 15 years and are = presently=20 living in Butterfield Trail Village a Life Care Retirement Facility in=20 Fayetteville AR. All for now. Glad to be aboard.
        Jim and=20 Elaine
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 03:06:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:06:47 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again In-Reply-To: <6b.15379707.28497c91@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010601160647.008c6d00@ilhawaii.net> I am a little more confused ,if possible, than I was when I started all this. It seems that some planes, even in our own squadron carried them and some didn't. Who made the decision? Who made the sandwiches? Who picked them up and carried them to the plane? The only other surviving member of our crew is Malcolm Magid, the co-pilot, and he does not have e-mail. I am going to write to him and see if he can answer these questions. In the meantime, if anyone can enlighten me, I will appreciate it. I just received Bob Hand's and Gene Carson's books for my birthday, and they are great! I recommend them to all on this list. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 04:22:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:22:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again Message-ID: <42.159f967a.2849b5ec@aol.com> Jim- As I indicated, we always had sandwiches, and ate them after we came off oxygen on the way home. I flew a couple of makeup missions with other squadrons and did not have them. Bill Carter, 358th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 22:54:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:54:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again References: <3.0.5.32.20010601160647.008c6d00@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <005001c0eae5$6fa26d20$421b4e0c@o3n4f8> Read Gene Carsons description of a " hero", and pass it along, Jim. He is a great guy in my opinion, and he "kindly" minces no words. Lg Bob is going to send me an autographed copy of his book ( as soon as my check clears :-)). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again > I am a little more confused ,if possible, than I was when I started all this. It seems that some planes, even in our own squadron carried them and some didn't. Who made the decision? Who made the sandwiches? Who picked them up and carried them to the plane? The only other surviving member of our crew is Malcolm Magid, the co-pilot, and he does not have e-mail. I am going to write to him and see if he can answer these questions. In the meantime, if anyone can enlighten me, I will appreciate it. > > I just received Bob Hand's and Gene Carson's books for my birthday, and they are great! I recommend them to all on this list. > > Jim Walling > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 05:38:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:38:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] frozen sandwiches Message-ID: <000701c0eb1d$d496b780$57d50b3f@default> But whose job was it to make the sandwiches? And if a frozen peanut butter sandwich was thrown from an aircraft and it hit another aircraft square on the Plexiglas nose, and broke out a piece of afore mentioned p/glass narrowly missing the bombardier, would it be possible for the afore mentioned bombardier to hang on to the afore mentioned peanut butter sandwich all the way back to base for proof at debriefing without eating it (of course only after the R/O defrosted it) ? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 05:51:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:51:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, My Dad was a Navigator in the 427 BS so I have some knowledge of the requirements for the job. During WWII a good Navigator would have considerably above average skills in working with aeronautical charts and performing calculations. The 'office' of both the Navigator and Bombardier in a B17 was in the nose of the aircraft. The Co-Pilot, Navigator, and Bombardier all reported directly to the Pilot. In a visual environment Pilotage and Dead Reckoning are used to determine location of the aircraft. Pilotage is the use of terrain features. Dead Reckoning is the use of time and aircraft speed with some compensation for wind and the earth's magnetic field. Unfortunately, in northern Europe visual flying was and is extremely limited due to the weather. At the time there were available early forms of airborne radar and LORAN to determine the location of the target. Night flying could involve the use of Celestial Navigation. In the 1940s this was a very cumbersome process. During the transatlantic flight of Dad's crew from Canada to the British Isles, the Pilot (George Newton) preferred the use of the Belleek radio beacon in Northern Ireland to the use Celestial Navigation. The technique of Celestial Navigation improved over the years, but has probably become a lost art with the use of satellites and computers. This is by no means all inclusive, but it may stir further memories of any WWII Navigators in this forum. I am certain that any grievous errors that I have made will be noted. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon,
      My Dad was a Navigator in the 427 BS so I have some knowledge of the
requirements for the job.  During WWII a good Navigator would have
considerably above average skills in working with aeronautical charts and
performing calculations.  The 'office' of both the Navigator and Bombardier
in a B17 was in the nose of the aircraft.  The Co-Pilot, Navigator, and
Bombardier all reported directly to the Pilot.
      In a visual environment Pilotage and Dead Reckoning are used to
determine location of the aircraft.  Pilotage is the use of terrain features.
 Dead Reckoning is the use of time and aircraft speed with some compensation
for wind and the earth's magnetic field.  Unfortunately, in northern Europe
visual flying was and is extremely limited due to the weather.  At the time
there were available early forms of airborne radar and LORAN to determine the
location of the target.
      Night flying could involve the use of Celestial Navigation.  In the
1940s this was a very cumbersome process.  During the transatlantic flight of
Dad's crew from Canada to the British Isles, the Pilot (George Newton)
preferred the use of the Belleek radio beacon in Northern Ireland to the use
Celestial Navigation.  The technique of Celestial Navigation improved over
the years, but has probably become a lost art with the use of satellites and
computers.
      This is by no means all inclusive, but it may stir further memories of
any WWII Navigators in this forum.  I am certain that any grievous errors
that I have made will be noted.

Best Wishes,        

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 23:08:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:08:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <005801c0eae7$545b7a00$421b4e0c@o3n4f8> What apperatus on the harness enabled the parachute to deploy properly above the shoulders of the wearer inducing a vertical, rather than horizontal configuration. Ie. chutes were clipped on the chest , or back, but not a permanent fixture of the harness itself. Sorry, a dumb question perhaps, but then...consider the source. I just can't picture it, even tho I realize it worked. Needless to say, thanks. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:44:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:44:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie References: Message-ID: <001701c0eaf4$df8db5e0$968f4d0c@o3n4f8> Truth be damned, if it sells to the scammed. As long as they will pay, we will have it our way. anon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie > Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. > I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded > up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. > Yuck, Yuck > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 07:11:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:11:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2001 1:00:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JJENKINSR@cs.com writes: << john, my navigator erred reraching area of england and we were on coast of france nearly before triangulation got us back to valley wales with fumes of fuel. spec >> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 07:11:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:11:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again Message-ID: book about sandwiches on missions? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 08:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:56:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie References: Message-ID: <3B189C16.6559B625@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Reur Memphis Belle experience. I walked out in ten minutes and I believe Lyle beat that record and may have exited sooner ... And now Hollywood is doing the same thing with Pearl Harbor. Our kids will NEVER know history. I recently had a visit to my Docotor's office and was wearing my 8th AF Bolo Tie. His Nurse asked what that was and I told her it was the famous 8th AF that helped to win WW#2 .... she asked, "What was WW#?" .. aghast, my doctor of the Jewish faith said to her, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust!" And then the Nurse asked, "And what was the Holocaust?" Totally disgusting, but that is what WHEE, THE People are putting out oday. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. > I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded > up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. > Yuck, Yuck > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 08:57:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:57:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) References: <20.1750a514.284981e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B189C71.5E66854F@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Well said, Jack, about Bob Lynch. I was his barrack mate when he first arrived in the 303rd and was assigned to the 360th. He was very HIGH on all our lists. Fine man. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill B. If you knew Robert J. Lynch you are an automatic friend of mine. He > is a sharp fine man. Was a Superb operation officer and a true Gentleman > without an act of Congress? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 09:27:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:27:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <3d.c7f6af4.2849fd8e@aol.com> Lloyd, The Air Corps had seat packs, Back packs and clip on chest packs. On B17's we used clip on chest packs. most if not all positions wore their harness and kept their chute near by. I've seen people bail out with their chute in their hand and hook it on as they fell. Once a fellow, I suppose a top turret gunner fell past us and his chute was on the end of about 10 feet of cord and the other end was tied to his harness. As he fell past us he was pulling it in hand over hand. I sure he got it hooked up OK but he was behind us very soon so I couldn't see that. We were high enough he had over 2 minutes of free fall time before he needed it. Regardless of the type of pack you had the harness was so constructed that when the chute was deployed you hung from your shoulders. I keep my (2 chutes) under my seat. The ball turrets could ware their chute in the ball with one snap hocked if they were not to big. You could bail out of the ball without getting back in the plane. I Don't remember how the sandwiches were delivered but I'm quite sure the mess hall made them. I don't remember eating them, but maybe I did once in a while. We warmed (Thawed) them in an electric hand warmer. If you pulled your heavy gloves off and were down to your silk gloves to unjam your guns or do other repairs you would freeze your hands in about two minutes. so the hand warmers. They were just a thick glove like tube about 18 inches long open at both ends so you could stick both hands in them. I laughed right out loud at your reply to my misspelled muscles. Thank you. There isn't much to laugh at when you are between 80 and 90. I didn't drink my brandy either but it didn't get dumped out on the ground (We didn't want to contaminate the English soil).so one of the others volunteered to drink it for me. Good night Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 13:06:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:06:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <3B189C71.5E66854F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: With this discussion about specific operations officers, I'm still a bit unclear about just what they did. I notice that they signed the loading lists that I find on the microwave, so I assume that they had something to do with the decision of which crews would fly on a mission, and I also notice that they fly occasional missions. During at least part of the time that my father was over there, I see that Harold Stouse signed as 360thBS operations officer. I think he was one of the original pilots who seemed to have returned for a second tour. When I looked in the records to see when he came back, I noticed that he came from the 487th BG, which was a relatively new group at the time, and he brought an entire crew with him, that eventually became a lead crew that flew with several pilots, including my father. However, going to a 487th web page, it doesn't look like Capt Stouse or any of this crew actually flew with the 487th, so I'm guessing that he must have gone back to the states, then came back for a second tour with this crew, and was assigned to the 487th, but somehow managed to get transferred back to his old group? ( I'm just guessing here, anyone know the real story?) Anyway, this brings up the question with respect to what happened to people who finished their first tour. When they came back for a second tour, did they generally have control over what group they came back to? I notice several of you came back to the 303rd, but some seemed to go to other organizations. One of the above mentioned crew members that came back with Capt Stouse (R/O Joseph Lillis) actually flew his first tour of 76 missions in the pacific, and ended up with approximately 105 missions. So it seems that for some people the second tour was random, but for others, it seems like you had a choice? I saw one post that suggested that if you "re-up'ed" after the first tour, that you had a choice, but I don't really understand the implications of this, because I thought that everyone was in for "4 years or the duration" so to speak. So the thing that I am confused about, is what happened if you didn't "re-up"? Were you then just given a longer state-side leave, but then likely to be re-assigned to some random combat assignment, whereas if you "re-up'ed" you got a choice of where you went????? Is this anywhere close? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 14:14:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:14:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sign Off Message-ID: <000c01c0eb65$f1ef7400$37f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign me off till June !0th as we will not = be home. Dick "Spider" Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign me = off till=20 June !0th as we will not be home.
 
          Dick = "Spider"=20 Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Frank Marshall) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:20:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <001001c0eb6f$2693ede0$9d560e3f@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone: My name is Frank Marshall, son of Alexander F. (Red) Marshall, WWII member of the 303rd. I really enjoy the site ank hope I can provide some materials from my fathers memorabilia to add = to the site. =20 I am retired from the US ARMY and my brother Jim is retired from the = USAF. My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on active duty with the USAF = at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!). Frank Marshall LTC, USA Ret. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone:
 
My name is Frank Marshall, son of = Alexander F.=20 (Red)
Marshall, WWII member of the = 303rd.  I really=20 enjoy the site
ank hope I can provide some materials = from my=20 fathers memorabilia to add to the site. 
 
I am retired from the US ARMY and my = brother Jim is=20 retired from the USAF.  My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on = active duty=20 with the USAF at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!).
 
Frank Marshall
LTC, USA = Ret.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 09:33:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:33:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction References: <001001c0eb6f$2693ede0$9d560e3f@hppav> Message-ID: <001c01c0eb3e$be9c7c00$9a8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Welcome to the forum Frank Marshall. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Marshall" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Hello Everyone: My name is Frank Marshall, son of Alexander F. (Red) Marshall, WWII member of the 303rd. I really enjoy the site ank hope I can provide some materials from my fathers memorabilia to add to the site. I am retired from the US ARMY and my brother Jim is retired from the USAF. My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on active duty with the USAF at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!). Frank Marshall LTC, USA Ret. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:51:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <50.1697ed18.284a576a@cs.com> --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, That is quite a bit off course. Better brush up on your Celestial Navigation. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,
      That is quite a bit off course.  Better brush up on your Celestial
Navigation.

Regards,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:58:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:58:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Bill Jones, I Hesitate to answer any more letters as I talk to much but I'm going to this one. The Sqdn.CO was the Commanding Officer. The Engineering Officer was in charge of the Airplanes and Ground crews. In the night he decided which birds would fly in the morning when he found out where we were going and how many planes they wanted him to put up. The Operations Officer was in charge of the flight crews and he decided in the night which crews would fly tomorrow and the position they would fly in the formation. He also gave check flights to the pilots and copilots. and he often assigned me to fly copilot with a new crew flying their first mission tomorrow. The CO and the OO were both OLD (maybe 23 or so) Pilots who probably had finished one tour (or maybe West Pointers) and they still flew once in a while as Sqdn or Group lead. The Engineering Officers were probably not pilots and did not (Usually) (Legally) fly missions. Usually when a pilot finished his first tour and was moved up he was transferred to another outfit. I suppose so he would not become the boss of his old drinking? buddies. RRR meant Rest, Rehabilitation, and Reassignment. We were in for at least for the duration plus 6 months. When you volunteered for a second tour you might very well stay in the same outfit but maybe put on a lead crew. BUT you were in the Army now Mr. and they could send you where they damn well wanted too or needed you and after RRR or before you could be in B29s in the pacific. One did NOT get out of the Army just because one had finished a tour in the Mighty 8th AF. I hope this has answered all your questions and I'm not telling you wrong. If you get an answer from Bill Heller or Bill Bergeson listen to the Bills. They were one and damn good ones (Two) The undersigned was just a lowly copilot who had to read the check list to figure out how and when to get the gear up, and I never ever figured out where in the devil it went, but up somewhere, the switch said so. A point of interest. You could NOT pull the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:43:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: <7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0@aol.com> --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I have to say that I've been enjoying all of the messages posted here. As a new member, I can't wait to sign on everyday! I do have a question. Can anyone comment on the relationship between Hell's Angels personnel and our British colleagues? Were there joint flight missions? Was there a lot of social interaction as well? Has anyone remained friends with any of these soldiers? I'm just trying to get a feel for the comraderie that may or may not have existed with our hosts in England. Thanks, Sharon McLane --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone,

I have to say that I've been enjoying all of the messages posted here.  As a
new member, I can't wait to sign on everyday!  

I do have a question.  Can anyone comment on the relationship between Hell's
Angels personnel and our British colleagues?  Were there joint flight
missions?  Was there a lot of social interaction as well?  Has anyone
remained friends with any of these soldiers?  I'm just trying to get a feel
for the comraderie that may or may not have existed with our hosts in England.

Thanks,

Sharon McLane --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the OO and 2nd tour info. > A point of interest. You could NOT pull > the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let > the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. I presume you determined this by experimentation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:41:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:41:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Bill Jones, Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. I did try loops spins and barrel rolls. NO never a slow roll, snap roll or inverted flight. Once you got your speeds right it was just as easy as in an AT6. They are really quite an acrobatic bird. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:50:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:50:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: <80.b6e57b2.284a734b@cs.com> --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, I do not know of any joint missions with the British. Perhaps some in this forum are aware of such activity. The British bombed at night and the Americans bombed during the day. Dad has mentioned that as the American formations were flying into the European continent in the morning, British bombers returning from their nighttime missions were sometimes encountered. This was sort of disconcerting if you happened to be at a similar altitude. The British bombers usually returned singly. During WWII Dad had an uncle who lived west of London. When not on duty Dad would visit the uncle and his family. A son of this uncle was killed during an RAF training flight shortly after the cessation of hostilities in Europe. I still maintain contact with a different generation of these relatives. They are very appreciative of American efforts and very aware of American sacrifices during WWII. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon,
      I do not know of any joint missions with the British.  Perhaps some in
this forum are aware of such activity.  The British bombed at night and the
Americans bombed during the day.  Dad has mentioned that as the American
formations were flying into the European continent in the morning, British
bombers returning from their nighttime missions were sometimes encountered.  
This was sort of disconcerting if you happened to be at a similar altitude.  
The British bombers usually returned singly.
      During WWII Dad had an uncle who lived west of London.  When not on
duty Dad would visit the uncle and his family.  A son of this uncle was
killed during an RAF training flight shortly after the cessation of
hostilities in Europe.  I still maintain contact with a different generation
of these relatives.  They are very appreciative of American efforts and very
aware of American sacrifices during WWII.

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:50:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:50:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: New Sharon, No we didn't even know the Hells Angles people in the next hut very well until we started this computer group and/or went to the reunions. We did land at an RAF base once in a while because of weather or mechanical problems and they were always very very nice to us. I"M speaking for me only. Most others are lots more cordial than the under signed. Welcome aboard, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:38:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B192497.8B002AFF@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... I am certain you will receive several answers to your letter anent "what was an Operations Officer. However, having been one, I shall try my answers for you. First of all, the Operations Officer was second-in-command of the Squadron, sharing these duties with a Ground Executive Officer. However, the GEO could not Command a Squadron unless he was rated. Ie., rated as a pilot. So in effect, the Ops Officer WAS the second-in-command. As such, he signed the battle orders and also certain Form 5 Sheets of the crew under his command. The Ops Officer also conducted all training with assistance of others on his staff. Many evenings when a Field Order would come in, the Ops Officers were notified, and went to Group Ops to assist in setting up the Mission and in deciding how many crews and planes his squadron could put up and also WHO. Anent Stouse, he was in the 360th Squadron until chosen to take a B17 to the US for a Bonds Tour and related "hype" for the USAAC. He had 16 missions at that time. He later came back to the 303rd, was assigned to the 360th and for a short time, signed as Ops Officer. Later he either went to another Squadron or went home. I do not know of his final disposition nor whether he is still alive. There was a sense at one time that he should have been held in the 303rd and givenother duties, but he had, after all, at 16 missions, been given a fine assignment many pilots and crews would have liked. About second tours. MOST of the second tours resulted from crews who were offered an R&R in the US if they flew an additional five missions and were retured to the US for the R&R and who had to come back for the second tour. I was one of these. Some second tours were not all that "self arranged" .. for example, Bill Bergeron, noted lead pilot from the 360th, went home after 25 (I was at the Tower when he BUZZED us LOWER than I had ever seen a mission-ending buzz job). Incidently, he had Col. Bill Travis on board, the elder brother of General Travis whose Wing HQ was at Molesworth. However, since Bill came over as a copilot, not trained in the B17, when he got home to the US he was AGAIN trained in the B17 and when told he would go overseas, he opted (naturally) for the 303rd, and became an Ops Officer, and, at one time, the Acting Commanding Officer of the 358th (I believe it was the 358th). Other second tours were not of the self-arranged type. Many fellows who did go home early, were, in fact, reassigned to the ETO (or the Pacific) and back they came. To where? Who knows? My Left Waist Gunner, for example, flew about 30 or so with us in the 360th, went home and was reassigned to another outfit and came back and did ANOTHER tour as Gunner at some other Base. So did my Bombardier. He losty an eye on his second tour at some other base. As to what you signed up for ... not so. When you were sent to the 8th AF, when we were, the missions were 25 and go home. When we were shown into our barrack, the Officer from the Staff who showed us to our barracks, said, "Welome to Molesworth where 25 missions are required to go home, but right now only 19% are completing same." (when I became CO of that Squadron much later, I required my Staff to NEVER make such a remark to a new crew) ... We all learned soon enough of our expected survival rate! Once completing 25, in that era, you had "relief from combat orders" which if you handed them to the Transportation Corps within 30 days, they had to ship you home. But, this hardely EVER occurred because your own Group saw to it that you went home. For those of us who stayed for a second tour or more missions, such was not the case. For example when my Brother got to the 303rd as a B17 pilot, he and I made a pact to stay until the end or until one of us was sho down ... had one of us been shot down, it was PRACTICE to then send the other brother or family member home. He was later KIA in Nam after fighting in two more "actions" ...Korea and Nam. I may not have answered all your queries, Bill, but at least some of them and I am sure you will get many more answers. But, I put this forth dur to my close association with the 360th and having known Stouse. I was also Operations Officer of the 359th Squadron prior to assuming Command of the 360th from whence I had originally come. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > With this discussion about specific operations officers, I'm still a bit > unclear about just what they did. I notice that they signed the > loading lists that I find on the microwave, so I assume that they > had something to do with the decision of which crews would fly on > a mission, and I also notice that they fly occasional missions. > During at least part of the time that my father was over there, I > see that Harold Stouse signed as 360thBS operations officer. I > think he was one of the original pilots who seemed to have returned > for a second tour. When I looked in the records to see when he > came back, I noticed that he came from the 487th BG, which was > a relatively new group at the time, and he brought an entire crew > with him, that eventually became a lead crew that flew with several > pilots, including my father. However, going to a 487th web page, it > doesn't look like Capt Stouse or any of this crew actually flew with > the 487th, so I'm guessing that he must have gone back to the > states, then came back for a second tour with this crew, and was > assigned to the 487th, but somehow managed to get transferred > back to his old group? ( I'm just guessing here, anyone know the > real story?) > Anyway, this brings up the question with respect to what > happened to people who finished their first tour. When they came > back for a second tour, did they generally have control over what > group they came back to? I notice several of you came back to > the 303rd, but some seemed to go to other organizations. One of > the above mentioned crew members that came back with Capt > Stouse (R/O Joseph Lillis) actually flew his first tour of 76 missions > in the pacific, and ended up with approximately 105 missions. > So it seems that for some people the second tour was random, > but for others, it seems like you had a choice? I saw one post > that suggested that if you "re-up'ed" after the first tour, that you had > a choice, but I don't really understand the implications of this, > because I thought that everyone was in for "4 years or the duration" > so to speak. So the thing that I am confused about, is what > happened if you didn't "re-up"? Were you then just given a longer > state-side leave, but then likely to be re-assigned to some random > combat assignment, whereas if you "re-up'ed" you got a choice of > where you went????? Is this anywhere close? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:38:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:38:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. Oh. I thought I sensed a story coming on about a mis-print on a checklist leading to a B-17 sitting on it's belly. I've never been a fan of check-lists, (although I understand their value in flying.) and was hoping for an example of how they can go wrong. I used to work in an Army nerve gas laboratory, and we had check lists for everything, even to tell us to fill out other check lists. Of course, the people who actually used them were the ones we worried about. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:42:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:42:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B192587.96CA0D07@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Say, Jack! We NEVER had any "lowly copilots" as you put it, or lowly ANYTHING. We were the best and YOU know it for you were also one of those such dedicated people. I like a lot of your explanations ... they get to the meat quite quickly. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, I Hesitate to answer any more letters as I talk to much but I'm > going to this one. The Sqdn.CO was the Commanding Officer. The Engineering > Officer was in charge of the Airplanes and Ground crews. In the night he > decided which birds would fly in the morning when he found out where we were > going and how many planes they wanted him to put up. The Operations Officer > was in charge of the flight crews and he decided in the night which crews > would fly tomorrow and the position they would fly in the formation. He also > gave check flights to the pilots and copilots. and he often assigned me to > fly copilot with a new crew flying their first mission tomorrow. The CO and > the OO were both OLD (maybe 23 or so) Pilots who probably had finished one > tour (or maybe West Pointers) and they still flew once in a while as Sqdn or > Group lead. The Engineering Officers were probably not pilots and did not > (Usually) (Legally) fly missions. Usually when a pilot finished his first > tour and was moved up he was transferred to another outfit. I suppose so he > would not become the boss of his old drinking? buddies. RRR meant Rest, > Rehabilitation, and Reassignment. We were in for at least for the duration > plus 6 months. When you volunteered for a second tour you might very well > stay in the same outfit but maybe put on a lead crew. BUT you were in the > Army now Mr. and they could send you where they damn well wanted too or > needed you and after RRR or before you could be in B29s in the pacific. One > did NOT get out of the Army just because one had finished a tour in the > Mighty 8th AF. > > I hope this has answered all your questions and I'm not telling you > wrong. If you get an answer from Bill Heller or Bill Bergeson listen to the > Bills. They were one and damn good ones (Two) The undersigned was just a > lowly copilot who had to read the check list to figure out how and when to > get the gear up, and I never ever figured out where in the devil it went, but > up somewhere, the switch said so. A point of interest. You could NOT pull > the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let > the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 19:03:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:03:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <3B192497.8B002AFF@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > I am certain you will receive several answers to your letter anent "what > was an Operations Officer. However, having been one, I shall try my answers > for you. > Thanks. A couple more questions answered. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 19:55:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 08:55:04 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010602085504.008e1ad0@ilhawaii.net> I'm not writing a book, but I wpuld if I could write like Bill Heller, Bob Hand or Jack Rencher or draw like Bob Hand. I promise no more questions about sandwiches. Jim Walling At 02:11 AM 6/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >book about sandwiches on missions? > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 14:10:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:10:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II Message-ID: --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943. We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on 1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943.

We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the
aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the
navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on
1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:23:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:23:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox Message-ID: --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary" --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Moncur--hope you get this. I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again. My password is " Gee-H". Thanks again Mike Zarelli --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Moncur--hope you get this.
I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again.
                  My password is " Gee-H".
                                                                        
Thanks again
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary-- --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com Full-name: Mlzsilverfox Message-ID: <18.d79448d.28497feb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:31:55 EDT Subject: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox To: 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA-com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary----Please temporarily unsubscribe me for one week starting on Sunday, June 3rd. Thank you and best wishes. Mike Zarelli --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Gary----Please temporarily unsubscribe me for one week starting
on Sunday, June 3rd.  Thank you and best wishes.
                                                                             
 Mike Zarelli --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary-- --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:34:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:34:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3@aol.com> --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guess I'm your friend. I flew several missions with him and his room was next to mine when he was 358th Ops. officer and I was one of the Sqd, Gee H operators. I very much agree with your comments about him altho you probably knew him far better than I. Very best regards Mike Zarelli --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Guess I'm your friend.
            I flew several missions with him and his room was next to mine
when he was 358th Ops. officer and I was one of the Sqd, Gee H operators.
            I very much agree with your comments about him altho you
probably knew him far better than I.
                                                                        Very
best regards
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:45:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:45:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <50.1697ed40.284a9c74@aol.com> --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher--=Further to my earlier e-mail---We're both talking about Bob Lynch, altho my note omitted his name. Also, I forgot to mention that I flew a couple of missions with Bill Bergeron and he was a fine pilot and officer. We were a lucky bunch. Mike Zarelli --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Jack Rencher--=Further to my earlier e-mail---We're both talking about
Bob Lynch, altho my note omitted his name.
      Also, I forgot to mention that I flew a couple of missions with Bill
Bergeron and he was a fine pilot and officer.
            We were a lucky bunch.
                                                                        Mike
Zarelli --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:11:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:11:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: Jim, you should be reading the book by now and I thank your wife for her wisdom in sending it. Always a pleasure to read your welcome remarks from faraway Hawaii .Best Wishes and Cheers to you both.....Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:26:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <60.f2d02fc.284aa5e2@aol.com> WOW....a most happy welcome to the 303rd site! Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand 303/360 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:30:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:30:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Story went around that a hotshot pilot looped a B-17 and returned to base with an extra couple of feet dihedral, spent duration of his tour in Leavenworth paying for the airplane. Heard this one? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:37:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:37:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox References: Message-ID: <000d01c0eb71$9fe9b7e0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> God speed, Silverfox. You will be missed, but never forgotten. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 3:23 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox > Gary Moncur--hope you get this. > I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again. > My password is " Gee-H". > > Thanks again > > Mike Zarelli > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:59:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:59:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: Message-ID: <001d01c0eb74$9c7ac880$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> What are the odds of this happening? Peter, my dad was the original navigator on Joe BTFSPLK II, Don Stocktons' crew. 24610 was lost on a mission to St. Nazaire after my father had finished his first tour of 25 missions. "Joe" was assigned to the 427th Sq. The name is a reference to a character in the L'il Abner cartoon strip written and drawn by Al Capp. Joe BTFSPLK was a sad chap in a black slouch hat, and everywhere he went a dark cloud followed him. The " dark cloud " in this instance was intended for Mr. Hitler, and his cronies I am pretty sure, not some fatalistic premonition of the crew. I don't have access yet to the full History . You will find some guys here who do, and they will help you every which way , but down. Lloyd Grant, ( 427th son ). palidin@worldnet.att.net. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943. > > We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the > aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the > navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on > 1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:04:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:04:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II Message-ID: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and
Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible
family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:03:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:03:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B195489.B0D9EECE@attglobal.net> Jones ... If you want to be a sduccessful pilot you WILL use a checklist all the time. I can tell you that after amassing 33,000 hours of pilot in command. Checklist ALL THE TIME. I knew many pilots who scoffed at them, andI went to their funerals. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > >... Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. > > Oh. I thought I sensed a story coming on about a mis-print on a > checklist leading to a B-17 sitting on it's belly. I've never been a fan > of check-lists, (although I understand their value in flying.) and was > hoping for an example of how they can go wrong. I used to work in > an Army nerve gas laboratory, and we had check lists for > everything, even to tell us to fill out other check lists. Of course, > the people who actually used them were the ones we worried about. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:05:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:05:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again References: <3.0.5.32.20010602085504.008e1ad0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3B1954FD.446C274A@attglobal.net> Walling ... FYI I have three books published. Made a bundle on one and only meagre on the other two. Thanks for the thought. Cheers! Bill Heller Jim Walling wrote: > I'm not writing a book, but I wpuld if I could write like Bill Heller, Bob Hand or Jack Rencher or draw like Bob Hand. I promise no more questions about sandwiches. > > Jim Walling > > At 02:11 AM 6/2/01 EDT, you wrote: > >book about sandwiches on missions? > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:08:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:08:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B1955CA.1F65CD0@attglobal.net> Hand ... Do not know about the Leavenworth story, but two feet more of dyhedral would ruin ANY aircraft. I doubt the story, BUT, MANY of our pilots, as well as I, DID loop a B17 and most won't tell about it. Another story, not myth was of the fellow who looped one in the States BEFORE the de-icer boots were removed and the boots wrapped back over the wing and were ruptered. The B17 was built like the proverbial shit house and took a lot of beating. Cheers! Bill Heller Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > Story went around that a hotshot pilot looped a B-17 and returned to base > with an extra couple of feet dihedral, spent duration of his tour in > Leavenworth paying for the airplane. Heard this one? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:50:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:50:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: like kids recognizing memorial day as the day their swimming pools open for summer. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:54:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:54:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: as nose position ,i wore back pack shute and had chest pack snapped to my lft side, so it to be out of my way into bombsight and in firing my two guns and to easily reachy right side control panel. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:12:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:12:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <68.f8ee065.284accc4@aol.com> --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher I'm no authority on the B17 landing gear and whether you can pull them up on the hardstand, but I was in a B17 when the co-pilot did pull up the gear instead of the flaps while we were taxiing during a pilot checkout. Both the Navigator and I, the Bombardier exited thru the navigator dome because the escape hatch was on the ground and couldn't be opened. There are those who dispute that our navigator could get thru that dome. Bob Finley Bombardier, 360th sqdrn --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher
I'm no authority on the B17 landing gear and whether you can pull them up on
the hardstand, but I was in a B17 when the co-pilot did pull up the gear
instead of the flaps while we were taxiing during a pilot checkout.
Both the Navigator and I, the Bombardier exited thru the navigator dome
because the escape hatch was on the ground and couldn't be opened.
There are those who dispute that our navigator could get thru that dome.   
                                                      Bob Finley
                                                      Bombardier, 360th
sqdrn                                               --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 01:28:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:28:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: well said bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 02:10:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:10:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Bob Finley' I am very modest and Humble But I was raised a democrat. I got over the democrat years ago but I still lie a lot. I am an expert on B17 landing gears and it is night but I am not sleepy yet SO The gear on the B17 is raised and lowered by a worm gear that is driven by a . 24 Volt D.C.Electric motor. The gear can be cranked up and down with a hand crank in the event of an electric failure Said motor is activated by a switch in the cockpit. The main 2 main gears are on a single strut oleo that acts as a spring and/or shock absorber. Said oleo is held in alignment by a scissors device which is compressed when the weight of the airplane is supported by the landing gear. There is an electric switch in the scissors that is wired in series with the up circuit in the gear up cockpit switch. When the weight of the plane is on the compressed oleo the switch there in is open and the power cannot go to the gear up circuit even if the cockpit switch is placed in the gear up position. HOWEVER If one is taxing on a rough field and the cockpit switch is in the up position and one hits a bump that momentarily bounces the bird enough to let the oleo extend and close the safety switch the gear can and will start to retract. BUT That does not raise the gear. It just lowers the B17 down on its belly. The wheels are still on the ground.(so is the Ball turret) Yes the Navigator & Bombardier could go out the open astro dome IF they weighed less than 174&1/2 pounds, were over 5 feet 8 inches tall, didn't have to many cloths on, were scared enough and put their hand and arms out first. Best Wishes, Modest & Humble Jack Rencher, one of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 02:23:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:23:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <9f.16476be8.284aeba0@aol.com> Hand, Don't you believe the Dihedral story. We never come close to the red line of 305 MPH and we didn't pull over 1 &1/2 G's at anytime. As we started down in the loop we pulled the power off And probably had less weight on the wings than flying in rough air with a full load. I don't believe the deicer story either. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 03:18:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:18:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: I started flying at Molesworth in February 1945 and I seem to remember that we were told not to raise the landing gear all the way up with the electric motor. We were to stop the motor and raise the gear with the hand crank the last part of the travel. Anybody else remember that? Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 03:38:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dale Jensen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:38:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie Message-ID: <001c01c0ebd6$5001d540$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to write in defense of the "Memphis Belle" movie. I would = encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read the Guest Book = entries, especially those of several years ago. Young boys and girls = have visited this site by the dozens if not hundreds. I feel this is = the direct result of watching the movie. Yes, the movie had flaws but = most things do. It did however start many young minds on a journey to = learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth. The same applies = to "Pearl Harbor". Yes some will walk away believing they saw a factual = account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the truth. = What would have sparked these interests if these movies hadn't been = released? If one child seeks to learn more about his or her = grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service during = W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II historian = relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis = Belle" movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth. Good = endings CAN come from bad beginnings. Respectfully Dale Jensen ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I want to write in defense of the = "Memphis=20 Belle" movie.  I would encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read = the Guest=20 Book entries, especially those of several years ago.  Young boys = and=20 girls have visited this site by the dozens if not = hundreds.   I=20 feel this is the direct result of watching the movie.  Yes, the = movie had=20 flaws but most things do.  It did however start many young minds on = a=20 journey to learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth.  = The same=20 applies to "Pearl Harbor".  Yes some will walk away believing they = saw a=20 factual account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the=20 truth.  What would have sparked these interests if these movies = hadn't been=20 released?   If one child seeks to learn more about his or her=20 grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service = during=20 W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II  historian = relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis = Belle"=20 movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth.  Good = endings CAN=20 come from bad beginnings.
 
Respectfully
Dale Jensen
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:34:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:34:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> Message-ID: <005f01c0ebb4$484fbdc0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With utmost regards, Peter. Please do, and thanks. The history of this plane is evolving. See Christina Ramirez remarks, re: Paul Ferguson. Please stay in touch. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and > Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible > family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:35:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:35:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> Message-ID: <006401c0ebb4$50002000$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With utmost regards, Peter. Please do, and thanks. The history of this plane is evolving. See Christina Ramirez remarks, re: Paul Ferguson. Please stay in touch. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and > Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible > family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 05:37:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:37:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: Bill D. I don't remember any such instruction and I think it was bad useless advice. If the shut offs were adjusted correctly I can see absolutely no benefit in this procedure and lots of wasted time and potential problems. If they had mechanics that did not know how to adjust the shut of on the switches or If they had no jacks so they could run the gear up and down on the ground and had to guess at it, maybe. The switches were supposed to be adjusted so they shut off (2 or 3) I don't remember exactly, revolutions before they hit the stops so they coasted into the stops. This could have taken a few test flights if they didn't have jacks. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:54:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:54:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie References: <001c01c0ebd6$5001d540$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> Message-ID: <007101c0ebb7$0f620b00$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Dale Jensen, I think you have made a good point, and I appreciate what you have said. What new generation would sit thru the Classic film " 12 O:Clock High", or sit for the time required to watch an episode of " Victory at Sea"? The answer would make me want to weep, except, there are those young people that come here to ask. I suppose, you have to remember what it is like to be young and to enjoy the insoucience that other young kids have afforded all of us by sacrificing their lives in the furtherance of an IDEAL. Sorry, my medication is wearing off. Cheers, L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Jensen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie I want to write in defense of the "Memphis Belle" movie. I would encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read the Guest Book entries, especially those of several years ago. Young boys and girls have visited this site by the dozens if not hundreds. I feel this is the direct result of watching the movie. Yes, the movie had flaws but most things do. It did however start many young minds on a journey to learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth. The same applies to "Pearl Harbor". Yes some will walk away believing they saw a factual account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the truth. What would have sparked these interests if these movies hadn't been released? If one child seeks to learn more about his or her grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service during W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II historian relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis Belle" movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth. Good endings CAN come from bad beginnings. Respectfully Dale Jensen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:07:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: Message-ID: <007d01c0ebb8$d17fd720$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Spec, thanks. But, read my question. They worked, but how did they work? Ie. if your chute was quick-clipped to the harness somewhere in the chest area, what mechanism designed into the chute/ harness apperatus enabled the chute to open, and then suspend the parachutist in a vertical, and not, a horizontal attitude of descent? Ps. I really love some of the stuff you send in your attachments..Please don't stop. Thank you, IBSPEC, ( if that is your real name :- ). Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > as nose position ,i wore back pack shute and had chest pack snapped to my lft > side, so it to be out of my way into bombsight and in firing my two guns and > to easily reachy right side control panel. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:19:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:19:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <008f01c0ebba$70f199a0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, your reply to this message gave me a wonderful belly-laugh. I know the subject was serious. I hope all concerned have learned something. Your sense of humour, and timing is a delight for me. Thank you, sir. Grants' son. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours > Bob Finley' > I am very modest and Humble But I was raised a democrat. I got over the > democrat years ago but I still lie a lot. I am an expert on B17 landing gears > and it is night but I am not sleepy yet SO > The gear on the B17 is raised and lowered by a worm gear that is driven > by a . 24 Volt D.C.Electric motor. The gear can be cranked up and down with a > hand crank in the event of an electric failure Said motor is activated by a > switch in the cockpit. > The main 2 main gears are on a single strut oleo that acts as a spring > and/or shock absorber. Said oleo is held in alignment by a scissors device > which is compressed when the weight of the airplane is supported by the > landing gear. There is an electric switch in the scissors that is wired in > series with the up circuit in the gear up cockpit switch. When the weight of > the plane is on the compressed oleo the switch there in is open and the power > cannot go to the gear up circuit even if the cockpit switch is placed in the > gear up position. HOWEVER > If one is taxing on a rough field and the cockpit switch is in the up > position and one hits a bump that momentarily bounces the bird enough to let > the oleo extend and close the safety switch the gear can and will start to > retract. BUT > That does not raise the gear. It just lowers the B17 down on its belly. > The wheels are still on the ground.(so is the Ball turret) > Yes the Navigator & Bombardier could go out the open astro dome IF they > weighed less than 174&1/2 pounds, were over 5 feet 8 inches tall, didn't have > to many cloths on, were scared enough and put their hand and arms out first. > Best Wishes, > Modest & Humble Jack Rencher, one of the two best damn 4 engine > pilots in the 8th Air Force > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:46:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:46:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <74.b359921.284b293c@aol.com> tell 'em jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:48:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:48:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie Message-ID: <6b.1543d421.284b29be@aol.com> said well From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:52:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:52:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <84.16d865a1.284b2a85@aol.com> i f needed to use chest chute i simply swung it in front of me and clamped it to right side of my chute harness. easy to do. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 13:23:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:23:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <005901c0ec28$05e95a80$1f3f22d1@billowen> Hello Group, I just read in the paper that the B-17 "Texas Raider" will be here in Tyler, Texas next Saturday, June 9. Does anyone out there know anything about the history of this plane? I will go out to see it and may even take a ride if it's not too expensive. I've only been inside one B-17 and that was a few years ago. I know that I will enjoy this one much more since I have learned so much more about them through this forum. There will also be an A-26 and B-25 bombers, a P-51 and numerous new jets. I suppose this B-17 belongs to the Confederate Air Force but the article did not say who it belongs to. Just curious to know a little history about this B-17. Regards, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 16:22:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:22:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: "Texas Raider" Message-ID: --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I found a list of B-17s on the web. Texas Raider is from the CAF in Houston from what I can gather. I sent a list of B-17s and where they are based. The list is at the bottom of the page. Terry Lucas --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I found a list of B-17s on the web. Texas Raider is from the CAF in
Houston from what I can gather. I sent a list of B-17s and where they are
based. The list is at the bottom of the page.
Terry Lucas --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 16:43:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <002301c0ec43$fe131000$223f22d1@billowen> Thanks, Bill Jones and Terry Lucas for your info on Texas Raider. Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 17:28:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:28:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: Jack, I agree that it was probably unnecessary to hand crank the gear up the later par of its travel, but our flight engineer and worked together on getting the maximum travel with the motor before he hand cranked it the rest of the way. I seem to remember that some aircraft had trouble lowering the gear electrically, therefore the procedure I said was to be used. I do know that we never had any problem with the landing gear extension or retraction before that procedure or after we started using it. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 11:40:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 06:40:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <84.16d865a1.284b2a85@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0ec19$a4c22ba0$05874d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Spec. I have a feeling that I have not worded this question very well. It is essentially a "center of gravity" musing. It seems that there must have been some device on the chute harness that enabled the canopy and shrouds to deploy overhead, as opposed to "over buttocks", or, "over chest". I suppose the important thing is that the ruddy chute worked. I was just curious as to how. No worries, I will sort it out. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > i f needed to use chest chute i simply swung it in front of me and clamped it > to right side of my chute harness. easy to do. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 18:16:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:16:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Humble Jack, I got your message and understand. That's what probably happened. A humbled Bombardier Bob Finley --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Humble Jack, I got your message and understand. That's what probably
happened.                                             A humbled Bombardier
                                                           Bob Finley --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 20:07:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Message-ID: <001701c0ec60$79780c20$26ed7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) who died last year = of cancer. I am writing a family history and I want to find out more = about life in the 303rd while Jim was there. I am particularly = interested in finding out more about the missions Jim flew, particularly = Oscherlebein mission which was Jim's worst. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) = who died=20 last year of cancer.  I am writing a family history and I want to = find out=20 more about life in the 303rd while Jim was there.  I am = particularly=20 interested in finding out more about the missions Jim flew, particularly = Oscherlebein mission which was Jim's worst. =20
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 22:44:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:44:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: Lloyd The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the rip cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy somewhat toward the airplane. Whether it went over your head ,Butt front or back shoulders or big toes would depend on where it came from, Back pack or chest pack, and what part of your shapely body was falling first. The chute does not leave you. YOU leave the chute. If your feet are leading your fall it will deploy over your head. If your head is leading your fall it will deploy over your feet. If you grabbed your lunch pail when you bailed out instead of your chute, you'd better eat fast because you are very soon going to hit the ground at 120 MPH, Unless of course you bailed out over the water. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 23:13:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:13:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <15.1542bf7b.284c109d@aol.com> Please unsubscribe me from this mailing list. Thank you, Chuck From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 14:24:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:24:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: Hi Bill: I flew on Texas Raiders in 1991 with a former pilot from the 91st BG(H)! Raiders is a Douglas-built B-17 and never saw any action during the war except on the homefront. She is decked out in the markings of the 381st BG from Ridgewell, England, and you will note the BIG Triangle L on her tail. She is a fine bird, well restored, with many wartime features. If you get to fly on her, be sure to go up into the top turret during flight and get a 360 of her fuselage and wings, the view is spectacular. No one is allowed in the ball and tail during flight, however, if you are feeling adventurous, you might talk the ground crew into opening the ball and might be able to squeeze ino the tail. In the radio room, there are pictures of her restoration, be sure to see these. And if Patt is the pilot, tell him I said hi (he doesn't like his last name used public.) Raiders was features in a television commercial back in the 80's called "Don't Mess With Texas," a campaign designed to eliminate litter on Texas roadways - maybe you remember it. In the ad, you see an old pickemup truck cresting a hill and out of the passenger window you see a fast food bag being let loose. The next sequence you see the Fortress coming over the hill at about 15 feet and you hear, "Bombarier to pilot, BOMBS AWAY!" Then the campaign slogan, "DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!" It was a great commercial and won several national awards. Kevin >From: "Bill Owen" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:23:38 -0500 > >Hello Group, >I just read in the paper that the B-17 "Texas Raider" will be here in >Tyler, Texas next Saturday, June 9. Does anyone out there know anything >about the history of this plane? I will go out to see it and may even take >a >ride if it's not too expensive. I've only been inside one B-17 and that was >a few years ago. I know that I will enjoy this one much more since I have >learned so much more about them through this forum. There will also be an >A-26 and B-25 bombers, a P-51 and numerous new jets. I suppose this B-17 >belongs to the Confederate Air Force but the article did not say who it >belongs to. >Just curious to know a little history about this B-17. >Regards, Bill Owen > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 10:20:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 05:20:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: Message-ID: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> To Jack and All: This question was not intended to create offense, nor to dredge up bad memories for anyone. If it has done so, I hope an apology for posing it in the first place will be accepted. In future, may I suggest that a question that is unsuitable, or offensive be brought to the attention of the offender post haste. Ie. " Sorry, but this question is inappropriate and out of line." , or words to that effect. Thank you , Jack. Your reply did the trick. I understand. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > Lloyd > The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were > falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the rip > cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy > somewhat toward the airplane. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 17:37:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:37:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B1BB95A.CDE5288A@attglobal.net> lloyd Grant ... Lighten up on the constant apologies. We are all brittle in one way or another and very few of us mean anything demeanable in our writings. When we do, pray let us do it in private. Your views are as important as anyone's whether or not they have little "inconsistencies" or other items for which you seem to believe you must apologize. Not so. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > To Jack and All: This question was not intended to create offense, nor to > dredge up bad memories for anyone. If it has done so, I hope an apology for > posing it in the first place will be accepted. In future, may I suggest > that a question that is unsuitable, or offensive > be brought to the attention of the offender post haste. Ie. " Sorry, but > this question is inappropriate and out of line." , or words to that effect. > Thank you , Jack. Your reply did the trick. I understand. lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:44 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > > > Lloyd > > The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were > > falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the > rip > > cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy > > somewhat toward the airplane. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:24:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:24:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <000901c0ed23$a23fc3a0$333f22d1@billowen> Kevin Pearson and Todd Hollritt, thank you very much for all the info on the Texas Raider. Having all this background on the plane will make me enjoy it even more. That's great. Yes, I surely do remember that DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS ad. It was a really good one. I hope there will be a few vets out to the show this weekend. The last one I went to several years ago had maybe 6 or 8 that had flown on the 17's that I got to visit with. It's sad to think that there are fewer of them every day for us to visit with and learn from. Thanks again, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:26:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:26:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <10e.b12f7a.284d2ce6@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd: I don't know what question you are talking about that I might have taken as Unsuitable of Offensive. Now this is the absolute truth. Believe me. You and all the others who have asked questions on this forum have never ever asked a question that I felt was inappropriate, unsuitable or offensive. You can ask me anything you want to. I may not know the answer. I may not chose to answer, but there is no way I can even come close to being offended unless you use inappropriate language that I wouldn't want my Mother or Daughter to see. I do poke a little attempt at humor in the answers once in a while. Please do not take this as poking fun at you or anyone else. I do it just to lighten life up a bit and maybe get a smile once in a while. YOU DO NOT NEED TO APOLOGIZE. I do not think any of us who were over there and answer your questions are very thin skinned..As for me I have not been mad or upset in over 45 years, and there has been some real experts try. You are welcome to try if you want too but you won't succeed. I'll admit there are a couple of e-mails I get I don't open. I have a delete button, but they don't ask questions I'd want my Mother or Daughter to see. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 13:45:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:45:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B1BB95A.CDE5288A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000901c0ecf4$49b13720$fc8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, Thanks for your input, sir. In my opinion frequent apologies indicate how "SORRY" ( not regretfull) the apologizer is. I hate to apologize when it is unwarranted, but I hope I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, and to learn from mistakes. Sometimes it is easy to offend in this venue of communication when no offense was ever intended. You can't hear the inflection of a voice, nor see a facial expression as a clue. I have learned from past gaffs to reread what I have written, reconsider the choice of words, and when in doubt save a message to drafts for futher reconsideration prior to posting. Many of the questions asked here are difficult in that they do conjure up old memories; some not so very happy images. I will speak for myself, but I feel that many others of my generation will agree, if we are to further the real History and memory of what your generation did in this War, we must have accurate knowlege of the realities, or be condemned to the versions of it that pander to its " dollar value" and "viewer ratings". I commend everyone of you for the dedication and perseverance you put into fielding these questions, and for your considerate and thoughtful replies; even when such are not merited by a particular question. From the parts, thus evolve the whole. Thank you. Grant. ( if I require censure, my e-mail address will always be available to anyone wishing to communicate a private dissatisfaction, and I will always be open to hearing same.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > lloyd Grant ... > > Lighten up on the constant apologies. We are all brittle in one way or another > and very few of us mean anything demeanable in our writings. When we do, pray >