From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 01:37:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:37:07 -0500 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Question on a plane # and name Message-ID: <000701c0ea32$fe1dbcc0$0f3f22d1@billowen> Hi Dave, My brother's crew flew probably the same route as your uncle. I think it was referred to as the southern route. They left from Florida on 3-6-43 and went via Puerto Rico, British Guiana, Brazil, Ascension Islands, Africa (Dakar), Morroco (Marakech) and finally landed at St. Eval near Newquay, England. And, yes, they lost the plane that they flew over in. They were disappointed that they had to give up their plane. I understand that it was pretty common for that to happen. As far as what happened to their original plane, I'm sure someone who has access to all the B-17 records will answer that for you. It probably ended up in a different bomb group. Best wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tooley, Dave" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question on a plane # and name > Hi list, > I need your help. I have just received a copy of my uncle's crew photo from > the wife of one of his crew. I am hoping the list members can help me to > answer some questions. I have searched thru the web site with no luck, so I > am looking for some direction. > > 1) The picture was taken in Yun-dum, Morocco just south of Casablanca. > Was it common to go to England via Africa in early '43? Would there be > another crew photo taken in England? This photo only had 8 of 10 members. > 2) The plane # is 25407 (42-5407). According to the mission reports he > never flew in that plane. How can I find out what happened to that plane or > if it was his? > 3) According to a note in a photo the name of the plane flown by this > crew was "The Grapes of Wrath". However according to the mission reports, > this name is not mentioned. Nor is it mentioned on the site. Again the > question, how can I track this down? > > Was it common for a crew to bring a plane over from the states and then end > up flying something else? > > Thanks for your help!! > > Dave Tooley > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 01:58:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:58:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flight Engineer Message-ID: <81.b5cc900.284842cb@aol.com> --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, I read your description of a flight engineer, and I think you did a terrific job. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy, and he described the job exactly like you did. Terry Lucas --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, I read your description of a flight engineer, and I think you did a
terrific job. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy, and he
described the job exactly like you did.
Terry Lucas --part1_81.b5cc900.284842cb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:23:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <41.c272d0d.284856ac@aol.com> --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well..now that I know what a Flight Engineer does, I'd like to get more information on exactly what the Navigator does. My father, Joseph McLane, was a Navigator for a crew in the 360BS. Specifically, what kind of training is given for this position? Do they ever pilot planes or fill in for other positions? Where exactly in the plane are they located? Who do they report to versus who reports to them? Although I certainly know my father, what in your opinions, are the personality characteristics of a truly great Navigator? What are their main strengths and skills? Just curious....Thanks to all in advance! Sharon McLane --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well..now that I know what a Flight Engineer does, I'd like to get more
information on exactly what the Navigator does.  My father, Joseph McLane,
was a Navigator for a crew in the 360BS.  Specifically, what kind of training
is given for this position?  Do they ever pilot planes or fill in for other
positions? Where exactly in the plane are they located?  Who do they report
to versus who reports to them?  Although I certainly know my father, what in
your opinions, are the personality characteristics of a truly great
Navigator? What are their main strengths and skills?

Just curious....Thanks to all in advance!

Sharon McLane --part1_41.c272d0d.284856ac_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:39:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:39:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <8a.772219c.28485a52@aol.com> Dear Sharon, I had a friend who was a flight Navigator. He told me that the Navigator is the one who yells to the pilot "pull up, Quick!!" :) I know it's not much help, but, I thought it was funny. Good Luck, Christina Ramirez From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 03:55:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:55:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: crew duties .... Message-ID: <67.14d6b314.28485e36@gateway.net> Hello Jack Rencher, Thank you so much for adding the list of duties of the Flight Engineers. My husband was 21 years old when he was at Molesworth and it amazes me that men that young and even younger could handle the duties that all of the crew members carried out. With that kind of dedication, it's no wonder that you fine young men won that war for all of us. The 303rd BGA and the "Talk Site" are my favorite sites and I'm very proud to be a small part of them. Please know how very much you are all appreciated. God has blessed our America. Best regards and thank you again, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 10:33:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:33:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flight Engineer Message-ID: <95.b7c0dbb.2848bb7d@aol.com> Terry, Thank you for your kind words. The engineer on a B24 was a very important job. You can be proud of your Dad. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 12:14:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:14:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <13.1668da3e.2848d321@aol.com> Dear Sharon: A map is flat, usually a flat piece of paper. The world we travel on is a ball so the surface is not flat. The Navigators job is to know where we are and were we want to go on that ball, transfer it to that piece of paper and figure out the best way to get there. He reports to the pilot. In a combat formation he would also file a report with the Squadron or Group after each mission. There are several methods of navigation that he can use and on most flights of any distance he would possibly use several of them. I don't spell well so I hope my computer can help me. They are Celestial, Radio, Dead Roconing and pilotage. In England we had a Gee Box which is a form of radio. We also had a radio compass also called an ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) and in the old days a low frequency (A and N) range which have been replaced thank heavens A good navigator should be knowledgeable about all these and know how to use them and also be knowledgeable about meteorology (Weather) Wind clouds and various types of precipitation. He should also know about fuel consumption of his plane and the skill and experience of his pilot Dead Reckoning (DR) is using your compass, flying a certain distance at certain time at a certain speed, compensating for the wind and you should be there. Celestial is shooting a fix from the stars to see where you are. It is most useful at night as the stars are out and mostly used over ocean flights. Pilotage is just looking at the flat map and following along your route on the round dirt under you so the Navigator needs a place on the plane where he can see up and down. SO. In a B17 he was stationed up in the nose with the bombardier so he could look out the big Plexiglas (Lucite) nose cone. Then he has a little Plexiglas dome above his head so he can take his sextant and shoot a fix if his pilot can hold the plane steady enough long enough Most pilots have to be somewhat navigators (except celestial) But navigators do not have to be pilots. There is no reason they couldn't be. I tried to teach our navigator to fly but he did not want to. In formation The navigators job is not to plot the course.(other than the Lead plane) but by using the above methods keep track of where we are at all times so if we have to fly home alone we know exactly where we are so he can guide us around the heavy flak areas and get us back to Molesworth in one piece. Navigators should be smart, Patient, Pray a lot, be good at math and an E6B computer. and know how to read a map (Lamberts, polar steriographics,Macators and road maps) It also helps if they have a Damn good pilot and copilot and very damn good gunners. Every body reports to the Navigator when they get lost especially of when he has the sandwiches in his hand warmer. Sharon I hope I have answered all your questions. You can be very proud of your father. The 360thBS was one GOOD outfit. Good night dear Girl. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 13:39:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:39:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator In-Reply-To: <13.1668da3e.2848d321@aol.com> Message-ID: > A map is flat, usually a flat piece of paper. The world we travel on is > a ball so the surface is not flat. The Navigators job is to know where we > are and were we want to go on that ball, transfer it to that piece of paper > and figure out the best way to get there. ...... > ........ > There are several methods of navigation that he can use and on most > flights of any distance he would possibly use several of them. I don't spell > well so I hope my computer can help me. They are Celestial, Radio, Dead > Roconing and pilotage. In England we had a Gee Box which is a form of radio. > We also had a radio compass also called an ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) > and in the old days a low frequency (A and N) range which have been replaced > thank heavens A good navigator should be knowledgeable about all these I'm curious about what happened when there were both a regular navigator and a GH navigator and/or perhaps a MN on a mission (I guess these would only be on a lead or dep-ld ship). Ie did these different types of navigators work together, or did they do their own job and only communicate when one had a problem? I assume these other navigators must have been located in the radio room for space reasons, (or were they located up front too?), so I'm confused as to how they could have co-operated. > ..... Navigators should be smart, Patient, Pray a lot, be good at math and > an E6B computer. Is the E6B something like http://wejones.ftdata.com/Fl-comp1.jpg , or did navigators use something different? This thing was a circular slide rule flight computer of some kind, apparently used by pilots. I gave it to my son, who is a pilot, after scanning a picture of it. I think I figured out many of it's functions, but not all. BTW, the other side of it is a time/speed/distance computer. I get the impression that this side is used to convert between ground speed and indicated air speed, and do density altitude, pressure altitude, calculations, etc? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 10:47:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:47:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: radio ops Message-ID: <005401c0ea7f$df5c7ae0$c41b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Re: radio ops > Jim, I agree with your earlier statement.The converstion sure got spicy over some warmed up sandwiches. On the bright side, you got some interesting replies from some folks that don't usually > contribute, and as a result we learned alot about what the radio operators > responsiblities were. ( and that the inflight meals were not assigned to any > particular "stewardess" {grin}) > The Molesworth tape deal is wrapping up the last rounds. The next to the > last "out West" address is Richard Young. When he gets the tape I will put > you two guys in touch to work out a fair and equitable arrrangement for > getting the tape to Hawaii. Meanwhile, very best regards. Lloyd. I am sending this via the 303rd as my server claims he cannot fwd e-mail to Hawaii. Katmandu, no sweat; Hawaii, no can do. Time to go shopping I guess. LG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 17:10:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:10:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: Right you are, James....anyone without a trace of humor in his body had an unbelievably difficult time of the mission routine. The guys in our NIssen received an incredible amount of packages of food from home, including fruitcakes (with the hole in the middle for spritzing with scotch), and I'm sure some of the stuff made its way aboard for the homebound snack. I always tucked a peanutbutter sandwich and an apple inside my shirt. To each his own. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 18:18:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:18:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <18.d6ded75.28492868@aol.com> Sharon - on a flight one day I had the ball gunner call me with -"pull up quick" so its just not the navigator! Clyde Henning - pilot From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 18:45:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:45:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <21.c7b5b17.28492eaa@aol.com> --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I think all crew members are very important, however what about the Ops officer?. On my second tour, I was an Ops officer. Later on my tour of 13 additional missions, when you are a lead pilot, you are lucky to fly maybe one or two missions a month. So the Ops officer sets the mission, wakes up the crew and does a lot of training. Another thing is that pilots like John Casello and Bob Lynch gave me excellent advice. That's why I am here, 83 plus years later, living today after all that I went through (always fly good formations). cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
I think all crew members are very important, however what about the Ops
officer?. On my second tour, I was an Ops officer. Later on my tour of 13
additional missions, when you are a lead pilot, you are lucky to fly maybe
one or two missions a month. So the Ops officer sets the mission, wakes up
the crew and does a lot of training. Another thing is that pilots like John
Casello and Bob Lynch gave me excellent advice. That's why I am here, 83 plus
years later, living today after all that I went through (always fly good
formations).
cheers
Bill Bergeron --part1_21.c7b5b17.28492eaa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:25:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:25:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <79.15968f67.2849382a@aol.com> Bill Jones, On a B17 I would think if there were 2 navigators they would both be in the nose. They would need an altimeter, Airspeed indicator Magnetic & gyro compass & ADF. I doubt if these were in installed in most B17 Radio. rooms and they couldn't' look out at the ground very well or shoot a Celestial fix. I'm sorry, I don't know what an MN is. The GN would probably do most of his work on the bomb run or on an instrument landing so he might work more closely with the bombardier and the pilot than with the other navigator. They could use the Gee in route if the target was not to deep in enemy territory. There was room in the nose for three people. There is no reason they couldn't cooperate, Work together or help each other unless they just didn't like each other or one was conservative and the dumb one a liberal. The boss would probably be the one with the most rank, but there could be an exception here. They would communicate through the intercom. Even the tail gunner would know what was going on up in the nose if he wasn't to busy shooting. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:39:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:39:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator In-Reply-To: <79.15968f67.2849382a@aol.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 01, at 14:25, Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, On a B17 I would think if there were 2 navigators they would both > be in the nose. They would need an altimeter, Airspeed indicator Magnetic & > gyro compass & ADF. I doubt if these were in installed in most B17 Radio. > rooms and they couldn't' look out at the ground very well or shoot a > Celestial fix. I'm sorry, I don't know what an MN is. The GN would probably > do most of his work on the bomb run or on an instrument landing so he might > work more closely with the bombardier and the pilot than with the other > navigator. They could use the Gee in route if the target was not to deep in > enemy territory. There was room in the nose for three people. There is no > reason they couldn't cooperate, OK, thanks. When I walked through the touring B-17s, it didn't look like there was enough room up in the nose for another person, so I just assumed that the Gee equipment would be back in the radio room. I assumed that the Gee box was fairly big, as I thought it was similar to an old oscilloscope, which used to be big pieces of equipment. Part of my problem is that I am about 250lbs, and the thing that impresses me most about B-17s was how little space there was in there, however, for young guys who were in shape, it probably seemed a lot more roomy. The MN was the term I got off the loading lists for the Mickey Navigators, ie the PFF operators. I guess they were used more on the bomb runs, but I've heard comments to the effect that they were of help for navigating as well. I guess it would make sense that they would be up near the bombardier as well, but I really can't imagine having 4 people and equipment up there. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 19:50:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:50:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: I know I am starting a Dresden firestorm with this question, but here goes. Over the years I have heard 8th AF veterans blast Kathryn Wylder's remake of her father's orginal Memphis Belle. I would like to know specifically what was technically wrong with the movie. I have heard everything from dress to intercom procedures, but what else specifically. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 20:03:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:03:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Micky Operators Message-ID: Do we have any Micky operators on this chat ring? When you looked at the CRT in the airplane, what did the CRT show? Did it show a wave like a heart monitor, or what? I know H2X worked better over coastal targets and targets with inland waterways because of the land/water contrast, but I've always been curious as to what actually appeared on the Micky Operator's screen, and then how this data translated into bomb release. I saw a show in the History Channel a long time ago that showed the secret war of radar, and they showed a couple of CRT that had what appeared to be a mass of clutter, sort of like a television screen when it goes off the air at night. I've never figured out how you could bomb a target based on that kind of information. (And no, I don't believe everything I see and hear on the History Channel either. Some of their stuff should not even be public it is so bad and off base.) Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 21:47:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:47:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Op. Message-ID: <001301c0eadc$1655cb80$39a50ed0@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is lots of bull being said about the radio operators. The RO on = our crew did the duties he was trained for as did the rest of the crew = members.If the RO warmed and passed out the sandwitches none of them = came back to the TG in the 30 mission tour that I completed. LC ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is lots of bull being said about = the radio=20 operators. The RO on our crew did the duties he was trained for as did = the rest=20 of the crew members.If the  RO warmed and passed out the = sandwitches none=20 of them came back to the TG in the 30 mission tour that I completed.=20 LC
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0EAA9.CA966380-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 22:11:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:11:56 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010601111156.0089e4b0@ilhawaii.net> Bob Hand, Thanksfor your always interesting comments and I wanted to let you know that my wife just ordered a copy of your book for my 80th birthday. I wil be watching the post office. Jim Walling At 12:10 PM 6/1/01 EDT, you wrote: >Right you are, James....anyone without a trace of humor in his body had an >unbelievably difficult time of the mission routine. The guys in our NIssen >received an incredible amount of packages of food from home, including >fruitcakes (with the hole in the middle for spritzing with scotch), and I'm >sure some of the stuff made its way aboard for the homebound snack. I always >tucked a peanutbutter sandwich and an apple inside my shirt. To each his >own. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:17:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:17:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <6b.15379707.28497c91@aol.com> I WAS ABOUT 6 Feet and weighed about 185. Some were a bit taller than me but I doubt if very many were much heavier. I am about 5ft 9 inches and weigh about 170 now. I think most of it has come from my brain. It has sure gone to pot, but my mussels are much weaker now too so it might have come for my seafood Best Wishes' Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:28:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:28:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. Yuck, Yuck Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:40:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:40:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <20.1750a514.284981e6@aol.com> Bill B. If you knew Robert J. Lynch you are an automatic friend of mine. He is a sharp fine man. Was a Superb operation officer and a true Gentleman without an act of Congress? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 02:07:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JamesWalsh) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:07:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] James D. Walsh Message-ID: <003001c0eb01$a02d6c80$bfdee341@jamela5> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings: I was the Co-pilot on 1st Lt. John Van Wie's aircraft when we = were 'Shot Down" over Hamburg Germany on 25 July 1943. I stayed in the = Air Force and retired 31 Oct 1968. Elaine and I lived in Mitchell SD for = 12 years, Bella Vista AR for 15 years and are presently living in = Butterfield Trail Village a Life Care Retirement Facility in = Fayetteville AR. All for now. Glad to be aboard. Jim and Elaine ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings: I was the Co-pilot on 1st Lt. John Van = Wie's=20 aircraft when we were 'Shot Down" over Hamburg Germany on 25 July=20 1943.  I stayed in the Air Force and retired 31 Oct 1968. = Elaine and I=20 lived in Mitchell SD for 12 years, Bella Vista AR for 15 years and are = presently=20 living in Butterfield Trail Village a Life Care Retirement Facility in=20 Fayetteville AR. All for now. Glad to be aboard.
        Jim and=20 Elaine
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0EAD6.70074740-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 03:06:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:06:47 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again In-Reply-To: <6b.15379707.28497c91@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010601160647.008c6d00@ilhawaii.net> I am a little more confused ,if possible, than I was when I started all this. It seems that some planes, even in our own squadron carried them and some didn't. Who made the decision? Who made the sandwiches? Who picked them up and carried them to the plane? The only other surviving member of our crew is Malcolm Magid, the co-pilot, and he does not have e-mail. I am going to write to him and see if he can answer these questions. In the meantime, if anyone can enlighten me, I will appreciate it. I just received Bob Hand's and Gene Carson's books for my birthday, and they are great! I recommend them to all on this list. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 04:22:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:22:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again Message-ID: <42.159f967a.2849b5ec@aol.com> Jim- As I indicated, we always had sandwiches, and ate them after we came off oxygen on the way home. I flew a couple of makeup missions with other squadrons and did not have them. Bill Carter, 358th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 22:54:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:54:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again References: <3.0.5.32.20010601160647.008c6d00@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <005001c0eae5$6fa26d20$421b4e0c@o3n4f8> Read Gene Carsons description of a " hero", and pass it along, Jim. He is a great guy in my opinion, and he "kindly" minces no words. Lg Bob is going to send me an autographed copy of his book ( as soon as my check clears :-)). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again > I am a little more confused ,if possible, than I was when I started all this. It seems that some planes, even in our own squadron carried them and some didn't. Who made the decision? Who made the sandwiches? Who picked them up and carried them to the plane? The only other surviving member of our crew is Malcolm Magid, the co-pilot, and he does not have e-mail. I am going to write to him and see if he can answer these questions. In the meantime, if anyone can enlighten me, I will appreciate it. > > I just received Bob Hand's and Gene Carson's books for my birthday, and they are great! I recommend them to all on this list. > > Jim Walling > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 05:38:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:38:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] frozen sandwiches Message-ID: <000701c0eb1d$d496b780$57d50b3f@default> But whose job was it to make the sandwiches? And if a frozen peanut butter sandwich was thrown from an aircraft and it hit another aircraft square on the Plexiglas nose, and broke out a piece of afore mentioned p/glass narrowly missing the bombardier, would it be possible for the afore mentioned bombardier to hang on to the afore mentioned peanut butter sandwich all the way back to base for proof at debriefing without eating it (of course only after the R/O defrosted it) ? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 05:51:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:51:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, My Dad was a Navigator in the 427 BS so I have some knowledge of the requirements for the job. During WWII a good Navigator would have considerably above average skills in working with aeronautical charts and performing calculations. The 'office' of both the Navigator and Bombardier in a B17 was in the nose of the aircraft. The Co-Pilot, Navigator, and Bombardier all reported directly to the Pilot. In a visual environment Pilotage and Dead Reckoning are used to determine location of the aircraft. Pilotage is the use of terrain features. Dead Reckoning is the use of time and aircraft speed with some compensation for wind and the earth's magnetic field. Unfortunately, in northern Europe visual flying was and is extremely limited due to the weather. At the time there were available early forms of airborne radar and LORAN to determine the location of the target. Night flying could involve the use of Celestial Navigation. In the 1940s this was a very cumbersome process. During the transatlantic flight of Dad's crew from Canada to the British Isles, the Pilot (George Newton) preferred the use of the Belleek radio beacon in Northern Ireland to the use Celestial Navigation. The technique of Celestial Navigation improved over the years, but has probably become a lost art with the use of satellites and computers. This is by no means all inclusive, but it may stir further memories of any WWII Navigators in this forum. I am certain that any grievous errors that I have made will be noted. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon,
      My Dad was a Navigator in the 427 BS so I have some knowledge of the
requirements for the job.  During WWII a good Navigator would have
considerably above average skills in working with aeronautical charts and
performing calculations.  The 'office' of both the Navigator and Bombardier
in a B17 was in the nose of the aircraft.  The Co-Pilot, Navigator, and
Bombardier all reported directly to the Pilot.
      In a visual environment Pilotage and Dead Reckoning are used to
determine location of the aircraft.  Pilotage is the use of terrain features.
 Dead Reckoning is the use of time and aircraft speed with some compensation
for wind and the earth's magnetic field.  Unfortunately, in northern Europe
visual flying was and is extremely limited due to the weather.  At the time
there were available early forms of airborne radar and LORAN to determine the
location of the target.
      Night flying could involve the use of Celestial Navigation.  In the
1940s this was a very cumbersome process.  During the transatlantic flight of
Dad's crew from Canada to the British Isles, the Pilot (George Newton)
preferred the use of the Belleek radio beacon in Northern Ireland to the use
Celestial Navigation.  The technique of Celestial Navigation improved over
the years, but has probably become a lost art with the use of satellites and
computers.
      This is by no means all inclusive, but it may stir further memories of
any WWII Navigators in this forum.  I am certain that any grievous errors
that I have made will be noted.

Best Wishes,        

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_f3.b00de16.2849cad7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 1 23:08:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:08:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <005801c0eae7$545b7a00$421b4e0c@o3n4f8> What apperatus on the harness enabled the parachute to deploy properly above the shoulders of the wearer inducing a vertical, rather than horizontal configuration. Ie. chutes were clipped on the chest , or back, but not a permanent fixture of the harness itself. Sorry, a dumb question perhaps, but then...consider the source. I just can't picture it, even tho I realize it worked. Needless to say, thanks. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 00:44:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:44:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie References: Message-ID: <001701c0eaf4$df8db5e0$968f4d0c@o3n4f8> Truth be damned, if it sells to the scammed. As long as they will pay, we will have it our way. anon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie > Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. > I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded > up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. > Yuck, Yuck > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 07:11:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:11:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2001 1:00:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JJENKINSR@cs.com writes: << john, my navigator erred reraching area of england and we were on coast of france nearly before triangulation got us back to valley wales with fumes of fuel. spec >> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 07:11:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:11:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again Message-ID: book about sandwiches on missions? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 08:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:56:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie References: Message-ID: <3B189C16.6559B625@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Reur Memphis Belle experience. I walked out in ten minutes and I believe Lyle beat that record and may have exited sooner ... And now Hollywood is doing the same thing with Pearl Harbor. Our kids will NEVER know history. I recently had a visit to my Docotor's office and was wearing my 8th AF Bolo Tie. His Nurse asked what that was and I told her it was the famous 8th AF that helped to win WW#2 .... she asked, "What was WW#?" .. aghast, my doctor of the Jewish faith said to her, "That was the war which freed my people from the Holocaust!" And then the Nurse asked, "And what was the Holocaust?" Totally disgusting, but that is what WHEE, THE People are putting out oday. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, Besides the dress and intercom. they were a bunch of immature cowards. > I would not have any one of them on our crew. This movie was so Hollywooded > up it made me Disgusted and Nauseated well passed my next two birthdays. > Yuck, Yuck > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 08:57:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:57:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) References: <20.1750a514.284981e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B189C71.5E66854F@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Well said, Jack, about Bob Lynch. I was his barrack mate when he first arrived in the 303rd and was assigned to the 360th. He was very HIGH on all our lists. Fine man. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill B. If you knew Robert J. Lynch you are an automatic friend of mine. He > is a sharp fine man. Was a Superb operation officer and a true Gentleman > without an act of Congress? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 09:27:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:27:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <3d.c7f6af4.2849fd8e@aol.com> Lloyd, The Air Corps had seat packs, Back packs and clip on chest packs. On B17's we used clip on chest packs. most if not all positions wore their harness and kept their chute near by. I've seen people bail out with their chute in their hand and hook it on as they fell. Once a fellow, I suppose a top turret gunner fell past us and his chute was on the end of about 10 feet of cord and the other end was tied to his harness. As he fell past us he was pulling it in hand over hand. I sure he got it hooked up OK but he was behind us very soon so I couldn't see that. We were high enough he had over 2 minutes of free fall time before he needed it. Regardless of the type of pack you had the harness was so constructed that when the chute was deployed you hung from your shoulders. I keep my (2 chutes) under my seat. The ball turrets could ware their chute in the ball with one snap hocked if they were not to big. You could bail out of the ball without getting back in the plane. I Don't remember how the sandwiches were delivered but I'm quite sure the mess hall made them. I don't remember eating them, but maybe I did once in a while. We warmed (Thawed) them in an electric hand warmer. If you pulled your heavy gloves off and were down to your silk gloves to unjam your guns or do other repairs you would freeze your hands in about two minutes. so the hand warmers. They were just a thick glove like tube about 18 inches long open at both ends so you could stick both hands in them. I laughed right out loud at your reply to my misspelled muscles. Thank you. There isn't much to laugh at when you are between 80 and 90. I didn't drink my brandy either but it didn't get dumped out on the ground (We didn't want to contaminate the English soil).so one of the others volunteered to drink it for me. Good night Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 13:06:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:06:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <3B189C71.5E66854F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: With this discussion about specific operations officers, I'm still a bit unclear about just what they did. I notice that they signed the loading lists that I find on the microwave, so I assume that they had something to do with the decision of which crews would fly on a mission, and I also notice that they fly occasional missions. During at least part of the time that my father was over there, I see that Harold Stouse signed as 360thBS operations officer. I think he was one of the original pilots who seemed to have returned for a second tour. When I looked in the records to see when he came back, I noticed that he came from the 487th BG, which was a relatively new group at the time, and he brought an entire crew with him, that eventually became a lead crew that flew with several pilots, including my father. However, going to a 487th web page, it doesn't look like Capt Stouse or any of this crew actually flew with the 487th, so I'm guessing that he must have gone back to the states, then came back for a second tour with this crew, and was assigned to the 487th, but somehow managed to get transferred back to his old group? ( I'm just guessing here, anyone know the real story?) Anyway, this brings up the question with respect to what happened to people who finished their first tour. When they came back for a second tour, did they generally have control over what group they came back to? I notice several of you came back to the 303rd, but some seemed to go to other organizations. One of the above mentioned crew members that came back with Capt Stouse (R/O Joseph Lillis) actually flew his first tour of 76 missions in the pacific, and ended up with approximately 105 missions. So it seems that for some people the second tour was random, but for others, it seems like you had a choice? I saw one post that suggested that if you "re-up'ed" after the first tour, that you had a choice, but I don't really understand the implications of this, because I thought that everyone was in for "4 years or the duration" so to speak. So the thing that I am confused about, is what happened if you didn't "re-up"? Were you then just given a longer state-side leave, but then likely to be re-assigned to some random combat assignment, whereas if you "re-up'ed" you got a choice of where you went????? Is this anywhere close? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 14:14:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:14:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sign Off Message-ID: <000c01c0eb65$f1ef7400$37f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign me off till June !0th as we will not = be home. Dick "Spider" Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign me = off till=20 June !0th as we will not be home.
 
          Dick = "Spider"=20 Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0EB2B.44D7FA60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Frank Marshall) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:20:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <001001c0eb6f$2693ede0$9d560e3f@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone: My name is Frank Marshall, son of Alexander F. (Red) Marshall, WWII member of the 303rd. I really enjoy the site ank hope I can provide some materials from my fathers memorabilia to add = to the site. =20 I am retired from the US ARMY and my brother Jim is retired from the = USAF. My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on active duty with the USAF = at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!). Frank Marshall LTC, USA Ret. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone:
 
My name is Frank Marshall, son of = Alexander F.=20 (Red)
Marshall, WWII member of the = 303rd.  I really=20 enjoy the site
ank hope I can provide some materials = from my=20 fathers memorabilia to add to the site. 
 
I am retired from the US ARMY and my = brother Jim is=20 retired from the USAF.  My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on = active duty=20 with the USAF at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!).
 
Frank Marshall
LTC, USA = Ret.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0EB3C.DB06E080-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 09:33:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:33:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction References: <001001c0eb6f$2693ede0$9d560e3f@hppav> Message-ID: <001c01c0eb3e$be9c7c00$9a8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Welcome to the forum Frank Marshall. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Marshall" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Hello Everyone: My name is Frank Marshall, son of Alexander F. (Red) Marshall, WWII member of the 303rd. I really enjoy the site ank hope I can provide some materials from my fathers memorabilia to add to the site. I am retired from the US ARMY and my brother Jim is retired from the USAF. My daughter, 2LT Nicole Marshall is on active duty with the USAF at Randolph AFB, TX. (3rd generation USAF!!). Frank Marshall LTC, USA Ret. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:51:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE. flight crew responsibilities - The Navigator Message-ID: <50.1697ed18.284a576a@cs.com> --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, That is quite a bit off course. Better brush up on your Celestial Navigation. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,
      That is quite a bit off course.  Better brush up on your Celestial
Navigation.

Regards,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_50.1697ed18.284a576a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:58:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:58:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Bill Jones, I Hesitate to answer any more letters as I talk to much but I'm going to this one. The Sqdn.CO was the Commanding Officer. The Engineering Officer was in charge of the Airplanes and Ground crews. In the night he decided which birds would fly in the morning when he found out where we were going and how many planes they wanted him to put up. The Operations Officer was in charge of the flight crews and he decided in the night which crews would fly tomorrow and the position they would fly in the formation. He also gave check flights to the pilots and copilots. and he often assigned me to fly copilot with a new crew flying their first mission tomorrow. The CO and the OO were both OLD (maybe 23 or so) Pilots who probably had finished one tour (or maybe West Pointers) and they still flew once in a while as Sqdn or Group lead. The Engineering Officers were probably not pilots and did not (Usually) (Legally) fly missions. Usually when a pilot finished his first tour and was moved up he was transferred to another outfit. I suppose so he would not become the boss of his old drinking? buddies. RRR meant Rest, Rehabilitation, and Reassignment. We were in for at least for the duration plus 6 months. When you volunteered for a second tour you might very well stay in the same outfit but maybe put on a lead crew. BUT you were in the Army now Mr. and they could send you where they damn well wanted too or needed you and after RRR or before you could be in B29s in the pacific. One did NOT get out of the Army just because one had finished a tour in the Mighty 8th AF. I hope this has answered all your questions and I'm not telling you wrong. If you get an answer from Bill Heller or Bill Bergeson listen to the Bills. They were one and damn good ones (Two) The undersigned was just a lowly copilot who had to read the check list to figure out how and when to get the gear up, and I never ever figured out where in the devil it went, but up somewhere, the switch said so. A point of interest. You could NOT pull the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:43:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: <7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0@aol.com> --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I have to say that I've been enjoying all of the messages posted here. As a new member, I can't wait to sign on everyday! I do have a question. Can anyone comment on the relationship between Hell's Angels personnel and our British colleagues? Were there joint flight missions? Was there a lot of social interaction as well? Has anyone remained friends with any of these soldiers? I'm just trying to get a feel for the comraderie that may or may not have existed with our hosts in England. Thanks, Sharon McLane --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone,

I have to say that I've been enjoying all of the messages posted here.  As a
new member, I can't wait to sign on everyday!  

I do have a question.  Can anyone comment on the relationship between Hell's
Angels personnel and our British colleagues?  Were there joint flight
missions?  Was there a lot of social interaction as well?  Has anyone
remained friends with any of these soldiers?  I'm just trying to get a feel
for the comraderie that may or may not have existed with our hosts in England.

Thanks,

Sharon McLane --part1_7f.1542f3a1.284a63a0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the OO and 2nd tour info. > A point of interest. You could NOT pull > the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let > the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. I presume you determined this by experimentation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:41:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:41:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Bill Jones, Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. I did try loops spins and barrel rolls. NO never a slow roll, snap roll or inverted flight. Once you got your speeds right it was just as easy as in an AT6. They are really quite an acrobatic bird. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:50:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:50:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: <80.b6e57b2.284a734b@cs.com> --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, I do not know of any joint missions with the British. Perhaps some in this forum are aware of such activity. The British bombed at night and the Americans bombed during the day. Dad has mentioned that as the American formations were flying into the European continent in the morning, British bombers returning from their nighttime missions were sometimes encountered. This was sort of disconcerting if you happened to be at a similar altitude. The British bombers usually returned singly. During WWII Dad had an uncle who lived west of London. When not on duty Dad would visit the uncle and his family. A son of this uncle was killed during an RAF training flight shortly after the cessation of hostilities in Europe. I still maintain contact with a different generation of these relatives. They are very appreciative of American efforts and very aware of American sacrifices during WWII. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon,
      I do not know of any joint missions with the British.  Perhaps some in
this forum are aware of such activity.  The British bombed at night and the
Americans bombed during the day.  Dad has mentioned that as the American
formations were flying into the European continent in the morning, British
bombers returning from their nighttime missions were sometimes encountered.  
This was sort of disconcerting if you happened to be at a similar altitude.  
The British bombers usually returned singly.
      During WWII Dad had an uncle who lived west of London.  When not on
duty Dad would visit the uncle and his family.  A son of this uncle was
killed during an RAF training flight shortly after the cessation of
hostilities in Europe.  I still maintain contact with a different generation
of these relatives.  They are very appreciative of American efforts and very
aware of American sacrifices during WWII.

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_80.b6e57b2.284a734b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 17:50:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:50:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: our British allies Message-ID: New Sharon, No we didn't even know the Hells Angles people in the next hut very well until we started this computer group and/or went to the reunions. We did land at an RAF base once in a while because of weather or mechanical problems and they were always very very nice to us. I"M speaking for me only. Most others are lots more cordial than the under signed. Welcome aboard, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:38:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B192497.8B002AFF@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... I am certain you will receive several answers to your letter anent "what was an Operations Officer. However, having been one, I shall try my answers for you. First of all, the Operations Officer was second-in-command of the Squadron, sharing these duties with a Ground Executive Officer. However, the GEO could not Command a Squadron unless he was rated. Ie., rated as a pilot. So in effect, the Ops Officer WAS the second-in-command. As such, he signed the battle orders and also certain Form 5 Sheets of the crew under his command. The Ops Officer also conducted all training with assistance of others on his staff. Many evenings when a Field Order would come in, the Ops Officers were notified, and went to Group Ops to assist in setting up the Mission and in deciding how many crews and planes his squadron could put up and also WHO. Anent Stouse, he was in the 360th Squadron until chosen to take a B17 to the US for a Bonds Tour and related "hype" for the USAAC. He had 16 missions at that time. He later came back to the 303rd, was assigned to the 360th and for a short time, signed as Ops Officer. Later he either went to another Squadron or went home. I do not know of his final disposition nor whether he is still alive. There was a sense at one time that he should have been held in the 303rd and givenother duties, but he had, after all, at 16 missions, been given a fine assignment many pilots and crews would have liked. About second tours. MOST of the second tours resulted from crews who were offered an R&R in the US if they flew an additional five missions and were retured to the US for the R&R and who had to come back for the second tour. I was one of these. Some second tours were not all that "self arranged" .. for example, Bill Bergeron, noted lead pilot from the 360th, went home after 25 (I was at the Tower when he BUZZED us LOWER than I had ever seen a mission-ending buzz job). Incidently, he had Col. Bill Travis on board, the elder brother of General Travis whose Wing HQ was at Molesworth. However, since Bill came over as a copilot, not trained in the B17, when he got home to the US he was AGAIN trained in the B17 and when told he would go overseas, he opted (naturally) for the 303rd, and became an Ops Officer, and, at one time, the Acting Commanding Officer of the 358th (I believe it was the 358th). Other second tours were not of the self-arranged type. Many fellows who did go home early, were, in fact, reassigned to the ETO (or the Pacific) and back they came. To where? Who knows? My Left Waist Gunner, for example, flew about 30 or so with us in the 360th, went home and was reassigned to another outfit and came back and did ANOTHER tour as Gunner at some other Base. So did my Bombardier. He losty an eye on his second tour at some other base. As to what you signed up for ... not so. When you were sent to the 8th AF, when we were, the missions were 25 and go home. When we were shown into our barrack, the Officer from the Staff who showed us to our barracks, said, "Welome to Molesworth where 25 missions are required to go home, but right now only 19% are completing same." (when I became CO of that Squadron much later, I required my Staff to NEVER make such a remark to a new crew) ... We all learned soon enough of our expected survival rate! Once completing 25, in that era, you had "relief from combat orders" which if you handed them to the Transportation Corps within 30 days, they had to ship you home. But, this hardely EVER occurred because your own Group saw to it that you went home. For those of us who stayed for a second tour or more missions, such was not the case. For example when my Brother got to the 303rd as a B17 pilot, he and I made a pact to stay until the end or until one of us was sho down ... had one of us been shot down, it was PRACTICE to then send the other brother or family member home. He was later KIA in Nam after fighting in two more "actions" ...Korea and Nam. I may not have answered all your queries, Bill, but at least some of them and I am sure you will get many more answers. But, I put this forth dur to my close association with the 360th and having known Stouse. I was also Operations Officer of the 359th Squadron prior to assuming Command of the 360th from whence I had originally come. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > With this discussion about specific operations officers, I'm still a bit > unclear about just what they did. I notice that they signed the > loading lists that I find on the microwave, so I assume that they > had something to do with the decision of which crews would fly on > a mission, and I also notice that they fly occasional missions. > During at least part of the time that my father was over there, I > see that Harold Stouse signed as 360thBS operations officer. I > think he was one of the original pilots who seemed to have returned > for a second tour. When I looked in the records to see when he > came back, I noticed that he came from the 487th BG, which was > a relatively new group at the time, and he brought an entire crew > with him, that eventually became a lead crew that flew with several > pilots, including my father. However, going to a 487th web page, it > doesn't look like Capt Stouse or any of this crew actually flew with > the 487th, so I'm guessing that he must have gone back to the > states, then came back for a second tour with this crew, and was > assigned to the 487th, but somehow managed to get transferred > back to his old group? ( I'm just guessing here, anyone know the > real story?) > Anyway, this brings up the question with respect to what > happened to people who finished their first tour. When they came > back for a second tour, did they generally have control over what > group they came back to? I notice several of you came back to > the 303rd, but some seemed to go to other organizations. One of > the above mentioned crew members that came back with Capt > Stouse (R/O Joseph Lillis) actually flew his first tour of 76 missions > in the pacific, and ended up with approximately 105 missions. > So it seems that for some people the second tour was random, > but for others, it seems like you had a choice? I saw one post > that suggested that if you "re-up'ed" after the first tour, that you had > a choice, but I don't really understand the implications of this, > because I thought that everyone was in for "4 years or the duration" > so to speak. So the thing that I am confused about, is what > happened if you didn't "re-up"? Were you then just given a longer > state-side leave, but then likely to be re-assigned to some random > combat assignment, whereas if you "re-up'ed" you got a choice of > where you went????? Is this anywhere close? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:38:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:38:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. Oh. I thought I sensed a story coming on about a mis-print on a checklist leading to a B-17 sitting on it's belly. I've never been a fan of check-lists, (although I understand their value in flying.) and was hoping for an example of how they can go wrong. I used to work in an Army nerve gas laboratory, and we had check lists for everything, even to tell us to fill out other check lists. Of course, the people who actually used them were the ones we worried about. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 18:42:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:42:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: <25.162bc93c.284a5908@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B192587.96CA0D07@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Say, Jack! We NEVER had any "lowly copilots" as you put it, or lowly ANYTHING. We were the best and YOU know it for you were also one of those such dedicated people. I like a lot of your explanations ... they get to the meat quite quickly. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, I Hesitate to answer any more letters as I talk to much but I'm > going to this one. The Sqdn.CO was the Commanding Officer. The Engineering > Officer was in charge of the Airplanes and Ground crews. In the night he > decided which birds would fly in the morning when he found out where we were > going and how many planes they wanted him to put up. The Operations Officer > was in charge of the flight crews and he decided in the night which crews > would fly tomorrow and the position they would fly in the formation. He also > gave check flights to the pilots and copilots. and he often assigned me to > fly copilot with a new crew flying their first mission tomorrow. The CO and > the OO were both OLD (maybe 23 or so) Pilots who probably had finished one > tour (or maybe West Pointers) and they still flew once in a while as Sqdn or > Group lead. The Engineering Officers were probably not pilots and did not > (Usually) (Legally) fly missions. Usually when a pilot finished his first > tour and was moved up he was transferred to another outfit. I suppose so he > would not become the boss of his old drinking? buddies. RRR meant Rest, > Rehabilitation, and Reassignment. We were in for at least for the duration > plus 6 months. When you volunteered for a second tour you might very well > stay in the same outfit but maybe put on a lead crew. BUT you were in the > Army now Mr. and they could send you where they damn well wanted too or > needed you and after RRR or before you could be in B29s in the pacific. One > did NOT get out of the Army just because one had finished a tour in the > Mighty 8th AF. > > I hope this has answered all your questions and I'm not telling you > wrong. If you get an answer from Bill Heller or Bill Bergeson listen to the > Bills. They were one and damn good ones (Two) The undersigned was just a > lowly copilot who had to read the check list to figure out how and when to > get the gear up, and I never ever figured out where in the devil it went, but > up somewhere, the switch said so. A point of interest. You could NOT pull > the gear up an any plane with it sitting on the ramp. You could however let > the plane DOWN a few feet sometimes with the gear up switch. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 19:03:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:03:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours In-Reply-To: <3B192497.8B002AFF@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > I am certain you will receive several answers to your letter anent "what > was an Operations Officer. However, having been one, I shall try my answers > for you. > Thanks. A couple more questions answered. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 19:55:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 08:55:04 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010602085504.008e1ad0@ilhawaii.net> I'm not writing a book, but I wpuld if I could write like Bill Heller, Bob Hand or Jack Rencher or draw like Bob Hand. I promise no more questions about sandwiches. Jim Walling At 02:11 AM 6/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >book about sandwiches on missions? > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 14:10:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:10:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II Message-ID: --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943. We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on 1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943.

We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the
aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the
navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on
1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. --part1_d.15980390.284a3fbd_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:23:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:23:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox Message-ID: --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary" --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Moncur--hope you get this. I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again. My password is " Gee-H". Thanks again Mike Zarelli --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Moncur--hope you get this.
I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again.
                  My password is " Gee-H".
                                                                        
Thanks again
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_alt_boundary-- --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com Full-name: Mlzsilverfox Message-ID: <18.d79448d.28497feb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:31:55 EDT Subject: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox To: 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA-com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary----Please temporarily unsubscribe me for one week starting on Sunday, June 3rd. Thank you and best wishes. Mike Zarelli --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Gary----Please temporarily unsubscribe me for one week starting
on Sunday, June 3rd.  Thank you and best wishes.
                                                                             
 Mike Zarelli --part2_de.157db13d.28497feb_boundary-- --part1_de.157db13d.284a9736_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:34:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:34:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3@aol.com> --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guess I'm your friend. I flew several missions with him and his room was next to mine when he was 358th Ops. officer and I was one of the Sqd, Gee H operators. I very much agree with your comments about him altho you probably knew him far better than I. Very best regards Mike Zarelli --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Guess I'm your friend.
            I flew several missions with him and his room was next to mine
when he was 358th Ops. officer and I was one of the Sqd, Gee H operators.
            I very much agree with your comments about him altho you
probably knew him far better than I.
                                                                        Very
best regards
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_5b.16d4af3f.284a99b3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 20:45:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:45:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers (digest, Vol 1 #288) Message-ID: <50.1697ed40.284a9c74@aol.com> --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher--=Further to my earlier e-mail---We're both talking about Bob Lynch, altho my note omitted his name. Also, I forgot to mention that I flew a couple of missions with Bill Bergeron and he was a fine pilot and officer. We were a lucky bunch. Mike Zarelli --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Jack Rencher--=Further to my earlier e-mail---We're both talking about
Bob Lynch, altho my note omitted his name.
      Also, I forgot to mention that I flew a couple of missions with Bill
Bergeron and he was a fine pilot and officer.
            We were a lucky bunch.
                                                                        Mike
Zarelli --part1_50.1697ed40.284a9c74_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:11:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:11:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Radio Operator Gunners Message-ID: Jim, you should be reading the book by now and I thank your wife for her wisdom in sending it. Always a pleasure to read your welcome remarks from faraway Hawaii .Best Wishes and Cheers to you both.....Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:26:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <60.f2d02fc.284aa5e2@aol.com> WOW....a most happy welcome to the 303rd site! Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand 303/360 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 21:30:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:30:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Story went around that a hotshot pilot looped a B-17 and returned to base with an extra couple of feet dihedral, spent duration of his tour in Leavenworth paying for the airplane. Heard this one? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:37:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:37:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox References: Message-ID: <000d01c0eb71$9fe9b7e0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> God speed, Silverfox. You will be missed, but never forgotten. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 3:23 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Unsubscribe Mlzsilverfox > Gary Moncur--hope you get this. > I sent this yesterday but it came back undeliverable, so I'm trying again. > My password is " Gee-H". > > Thanks again > > Mike Zarelli > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 15:59:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:59:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: Message-ID: <001d01c0eb74$9c7ac880$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> What are the odds of this happening? Peter, my dad was the original navigator on Joe BTFSPLK II, Don Stocktons' crew. 24610 was lost on a mission to St. Nazaire after my father had finished his first tour of 25 missions. "Joe" was assigned to the 427th Sq. The name is a reference to a character in the L'il Abner cartoon strip written and drawn by Al Capp. Joe BTFSPLK was a sad chap in a black slouch hat, and everywhere he went a dark cloud followed him. The " dark cloud " in this instance was intended for Mr. Hitler, and his cronies I am pretty sure, not some fatalistic premonition of the crew. I don't have access yet to the full History . You will find some guys here who do, and they will help you every which way , but down. Lloyd Grant, ( 427th son ). palidin@worldnet.att.net. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > My son & I are researching B-17F #41-24610 (GN-T) and the crew on 1 May 1943. > > We'd like to hear from anyone who can assist with the meaning behind the > aircraft's name (Joe Btfsplk II) or who has any further information on the > navigator 2nd Lt Edward A Zieminski (serial Number 0790319) who was KIA on > 1st May in a raid on St Nazaire, France. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:04:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:04:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II Message-ID: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and
Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible
family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments --part1_67.14e8844e.284aaed4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:03:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:03:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B195489.B0D9EECE@attglobal.net> Jones ... If you want to be a sduccessful pilot you WILL use a checklist all the time. I can tell you that after amassing 33,000 hours of pilot in command. Checklist ALL THE TIME. I knew many pilots who scoffed at them, andI went to their funerals. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > >... Absolutely not by experiment but by observation. > > Oh. I thought I sensed a story coming on about a mis-print on a > checklist leading to a B-17 sitting on it's belly. I've never been a fan > of check-lists, (although I understand their value in flying.) and was > hoping for an example of how they can go wrong. I used to work in > an Army nerve gas laboratory, and we had check lists for > everything, even to tell us to fill out other check lists. Of course, > the people who actually used them were the ones we worried about. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:05:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:05:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sandwiches again References: <3.0.5.32.20010602085504.008e1ad0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3B1954FD.446C274A@attglobal.net> Walling ... FYI I have three books published. Made a bundle on one and only meagre on the other two. Thanks for the thought. Cheers! Bill Heller Jim Walling wrote: > I'm not writing a book, but I wpuld if I could write like Bill Heller, Bob Hand or Jack Rencher or draw like Bob Hand. I promise no more questions about sandwiches. > > Jim Walling > > At 02:11 AM 6/2/01 EDT, you wrote: > >book about sandwiches on missions? > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 22:08:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:08:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <3B1955CA.1F65CD0@attglobal.net> Hand ... Do not know about the Leavenworth story, but two feet more of dyhedral would ruin ANY aircraft. I doubt the story, BUT, MANY of our pilots, as well as I, DID loop a B17 and most won't tell about it. Another story, not myth was of the fellow who looped one in the States BEFORE the de-icer boots were removed and the boots wrapped back over the wing and were ruptered. The B17 was built like the proverbial shit house and took a lot of beating. Cheers! Bill Heller Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > Story went around that a hotshot pilot looped a B-17 and returned to base > with an extra couple of feet dihedral, spent duration of his tour in > Leavenworth paying for the airplane. Heard this one? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:50:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:50:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Memphis Belle Movie Message-ID: like kids recognizing memorial day as the day their swimming pools open for summer. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:54:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:54:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: as nose position ,i wore back pack shute and had chest pack snapped to my lft side, so it to be out of my way into bombsight and in firing my two guns and to easily reachy right side control panel. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:12:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:12:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <68.f8ee065.284accc4@aol.com> --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher I'm no authority on the B17 landing gear and whether you can pull them up on the hardstand, but I was in a B17 when the co-pilot did pull up the gear instead of the flaps while we were taxiing during a pilot checkout. Both the Navigator and I, the Bombardier exited thru the navigator dome because the escape hatch was on the ground and couldn't be opened. There are those who dispute that our navigator could get thru that dome. Bob Finley Bombardier, 360th sqdrn --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rencher
I'm no authority on the B17 landing gear and whether you can pull them up on
the hardstand, but I was in a B17 when the co-pilot did pull up the gear
instead of the flaps while we were taxiing during a pilot checkout.
Both the Navigator and I, the Bombardier exited thru the navigator dome
because the escape hatch was on the ground and couldn't be opened.
There are those who dispute that our navigator could get thru that dome.   
                                                      Bob Finley
                                                      Bombardier, 360th
sqdrn                                               --part1_68.f8ee065.284accc4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 01:28:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:28:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: well said bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 02:10:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:10:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: Bob Finley' I am very modest and Humble But I was raised a democrat. I got over the democrat years ago but I still lie a lot. I am an expert on B17 landing gears and it is night but I am not sleepy yet SO The gear on the B17 is raised and lowered by a worm gear that is driven by a . 24 Volt D.C.Electric motor. The gear can be cranked up and down with a hand crank in the event of an electric failure Said motor is activated by a switch in the cockpit. The main 2 main gears are on a single strut oleo that acts as a spring and/or shock absorber. Said oleo is held in alignment by a scissors device which is compressed when the weight of the airplane is supported by the landing gear. There is an electric switch in the scissors that is wired in series with the up circuit in the gear up cockpit switch. When the weight of the plane is on the compressed oleo the switch there in is open and the power cannot go to the gear up circuit even if the cockpit switch is placed in the gear up position. HOWEVER If one is taxing on a rough field and the cockpit switch is in the up position and one hits a bump that momentarily bounces the bird enough to let the oleo extend and close the safety switch the gear can and will start to retract. BUT That does not raise the gear. It just lowers the B17 down on its belly. The wheels are still on the ground.(so is the Ball turret) Yes the Navigator & Bombardier could go out the open astro dome IF they weighed less than 174&1/2 pounds, were over 5 feet 8 inches tall, didn't have to many cloths on, were scared enough and put their hand and arms out first. Best Wishes, Modest & Humble Jack Rencher, one of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 02:23:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:23:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <9f.16476be8.284aeba0@aol.com> Hand, Don't you believe the Dihedral story. We never come close to the red line of 305 MPH and we didn't pull over 1 &1/2 G's at anytime. As we started down in the loop we pulled the power off And probably had less weight on the wings than flying in rough air with a full load. I don't believe the deicer story either. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 03:18:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:18:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: I started flying at Molesworth in February 1945 and I seem to remember that we were told not to raise the landing gear all the way up with the electric motor. We were to stop the motor and raise the gear with the hand crank the last part of the travel. Anybody else remember that? Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 03:38:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dale Jensen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:38:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie Message-ID: <001c01c0ebd6$5001d540$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to write in defense of the "Memphis Belle" movie. I would = encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read the Guest Book = entries, especially those of several years ago. Young boys and girls = have visited this site by the dozens if not hundreds. I feel this is = the direct result of watching the movie. Yes, the movie had flaws but = most things do. It did however start many young minds on a journey to = learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth. The same applies = to "Pearl Harbor". Yes some will walk away believing they saw a factual = account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the truth. = What would have sparked these interests if these movies hadn't been = released? If one child seeks to learn more about his or her = grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service during = W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II historian = relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis = Belle" movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth. Good = endings CAN come from bad beginnings. Respectfully Dale Jensen ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I want to write in defense of the = "Memphis=20 Belle" movie.  I would encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read = the Guest=20 Book entries, especially those of several years ago.  Young boys = and=20 girls have visited this site by the dozens if not = hundreds.   I=20 feel this is the direct result of watching the movie.  Yes, the = movie had=20 flaws but most things do.  It did however start many young minds on = a=20 journey to learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth.  = The same=20 applies to "Pearl Harbor".  Yes some will walk away believing they = saw a=20 factual account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the=20 truth.  What would have sparked these interests if these movies = hadn't been=20 released?   If one child seeks to learn more about his or her=20 grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service = during=20 W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II  historian = relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis = Belle"=20 movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth.  Good = endings CAN=20 come from bad beginnings.
 
Respectfully
Dale Jensen
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0EBAC.6694BD60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:34:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:34:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> Message-ID: <005f01c0ebb4$484fbdc0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With utmost regards, Peter. Please do, and thanks. The history of this plane is evolving. See Christina Ramirez remarks, re: Paul Ferguson. Please stay in touch. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and > Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible > family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:35:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:35:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II References: <67.14e8844e.284aaed4@aol.com> Message-ID: <006401c0ebb4$50002000$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> With utmost regards, Peter. Please do, and thanks. The history of this plane is evolving. See Christina Ramirez remarks, re: Paul Ferguson. Please stay in touch. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Joe Btfsplk II > Thanks for your speedy reply - I've heard of the character Little Abner - and > Howard & I are busy researching the details of the mission and possible > family connections - thank you again - we'll keep you posted of developments > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 05:37:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:37:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: Bill D. I don't remember any such instruction and I think it was bad useless advice. If the shut offs were adjusted correctly I can see absolutely no benefit in this procedure and lots of wasted time and potential problems. If they had mechanics that did not know how to adjust the shut of on the switches or If they had no jacks so they could run the gear up and down on the ground and had to guess at it, maybe. The switches were supposed to be adjusted so they shut off (2 or 3) I don't remember exactly, revolutions before they hit the stops so they coasted into the stops. This could have taken a few test flights if they didn't have jacks. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 2 23:54:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:54:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie References: <001c01c0ebd6$5001d540$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> Message-ID: <007101c0ebb7$0f620b00$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Dale Jensen, I think you have made a good point, and I appreciate what you have said. What new generation would sit thru the Classic film " 12 O:Clock High", or sit for the time required to watch an episode of " Victory at Sea"? The answer would make me want to weep, except, there are those young people that come here to ask. I suppose, you have to remember what it is like to be young and to enjoy the insoucience that other young kids have afforded all of us by sacrificing their lives in the furtherance of an IDEAL. Sorry, my medication is wearing off. Cheers, L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Jensen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie I want to write in defense of the "Memphis Belle" movie. I would encourage you to go to www.memphisbelle.com and read the Guest Book entries, especially those of several years ago. Young boys and girls have visited this site by the dozens if not hundreds. I feel this is the direct result of watching the movie. Yes, the movie had flaws but most things do. It did however start many young minds on a journey to learn more and in so doing they will learn the truth. The same applies to "Pearl Harbor". Yes some will walk away believing they saw a factual account but others will seek more knowledge and again learn the truth. What would have sparked these interests if these movies hadn't been released? If one child seeks to learn more about his or her grandfather's service in the 8th AF, or any branch of the service during W.W. II for that matter, or grows up to become a W.W. II historian relating the stories of 100 years ago because he watched the "Memphis Belle" movie back in the 20th century then the movie has worth. Good endings CAN come from bad beginnings. Respectfully Dale Jensen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:07:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: Message-ID: <007d01c0ebb8$d17fd720$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Spec, thanks. But, read my question. They worked, but how did they work? Ie. if your chute was quick-clipped to the harness somewhere in the chest area, what mechanism designed into the chute/ harness apperatus enabled the chute to open, and then suspend the parachutist in a vertical, and not, a horizontal attitude of descent? Ps. I really love some of the stuff you send in your attachments..Please don't stop. Thank you, IBSPEC, ( if that is your real name :- ). Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > as nose position ,i wore back pack shute and had chest pack snapped to my lft > side, so it to be out of my way into bombsight and in firing my two guns and > to easily reachy right side control panel. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 00:19:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:19:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours References: Message-ID: <008f01c0ebba$70f199a0$f38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, your reply to this message gave me a wonderful belly-laugh. I know the subject was serious. I hope all concerned have learned something. Your sense of humour, and timing is a delight for me. Thank you, sir. Grants' son. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours > Bob Finley' > I am very modest and Humble But I was raised a democrat. I got over the > democrat years ago but I still lie a lot. I am an expert on B17 landing gears > and it is night but I am not sleepy yet SO > The gear on the B17 is raised and lowered by a worm gear that is driven > by a . 24 Volt D.C.Electric motor. The gear can be cranked up and down with a > hand crank in the event of an electric failure Said motor is activated by a > switch in the cockpit. > The main 2 main gears are on a single strut oleo that acts as a spring > and/or shock absorber. Said oleo is held in alignment by a scissors device > which is compressed when the weight of the airplane is supported by the > landing gear. There is an electric switch in the scissors that is wired in > series with the up circuit in the gear up cockpit switch. When the weight of > the plane is on the compressed oleo the switch there in is open and the power > cannot go to the gear up circuit even if the cockpit switch is placed in the > gear up position. HOWEVER > If one is taxing on a rough field and the cockpit switch is in the up > position and one hits a bump that momentarily bounces the bird enough to let > the oleo extend and close the safety switch the gear can and will start to > retract. BUT > That does not raise the gear. It just lowers the B17 down on its belly. > The wheels are still on the ground.(so is the Ball turret) > Yes the Navigator & Bombardier could go out the open astro dome IF they > weighed less than 174&1/2 pounds, were over 5 feet 8 inches tall, didn't have > to many cloths on, were scared enough and put their hand and arms out first. > Best Wishes, > Modest & Humble Jack Rencher, one of the two best damn 4 engine > pilots in the 8th Air Force > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:46:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:46:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: <74.b359921.284b293c@aol.com> tell 'em jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:48:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:48:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] In defense of a movie Message-ID: <6b.1543d421.284b29be@aol.com> said well From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 06:52:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:52:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <84.16d865a1.284b2a85@aol.com> i f needed to use chest chute i simply swung it in front of me and clamped it to right side of my chute harness. easy to do. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 13:23:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:23:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <005901c0ec28$05e95a80$1f3f22d1@billowen> Hello Group, I just read in the paper that the B-17 "Texas Raider" will be here in Tyler, Texas next Saturday, June 9. Does anyone out there know anything about the history of this plane? I will go out to see it and may even take a ride if it's not too expensive. I've only been inside one B-17 and that was a few years ago. I know that I will enjoy this one much more since I have learned so much more about them through this forum. There will also be an A-26 and B-25 bombers, a P-51 and numerous new jets. I suppose this B-17 belongs to the Confederate Air Force but the article did not say who it belongs to. Just curious to know a little history about this B-17. Regards, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 16:22:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:22:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: "Texas Raider" Message-ID: --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I found a list of B-17s on the web. Texas Raider is from the CAF in Houston from what I can gather. I sent a list of B-17s and where they are based. The list is at the bottom of the page. Terry Lucas --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I found a list of B-17s on the web. Texas Raider is from the CAF in
Houston from what I can gather. I sent a list of B-17s and where they are
based. The list is at the bottom of the page.
Terry Lucas --part1_ca.16016b33.284bb027_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 16:43:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <002301c0ec43$fe131000$223f22d1@billowen> Thanks, Bill Jones and Terry Lucas for your info on Texas Raider. Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 17:28:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:28:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, B-17 Landing Gear Message-ID: Jack, I agree that it was probably unnecessary to hand crank the gear up the later par of its travel, but our flight engineer and worked together on getting the maximum travel with the motor before he hand cranked it the rest of the way. I seem to remember that some aircraft had trouble lowering the gear electrically, therefore the procedure I said was to be used. I do know that we never had any problem with the landing gear extension or retraction before that procedure or after we started using it. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 11:40:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 06:40:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <84.16d865a1.284b2a85@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0ec19$a4c22ba0$05874d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Spec. I have a feeling that I have not worded this question very well. It is essentially a "center of gravity" musing. It seems that there must have been some device on the chute harness that enabled the canopy and shrouds to deploy overhead, as opposed to "over buttocks", or, "over chest". I suppose the important thing is that the ruddy chute worked. I was just curious as to how. No worries, I will sort it out. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > i f needed to use chest chute i simply swung it in front of me and clamped it > to right side of my chute harness. easy to do. spec > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 18:16:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:16:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Operations Officers .... and second tours Message-ID: --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Humble Jack, I got your message and understand. That's what probably happened. A humbled Bombardier Bob Finley --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Humble Jack, I got your message and understand. That's what probably
happened.                                             A humbled Bombardier
                                                           Bob Finley --part1_a.db7a946.284bcad7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 20:07:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Message-ID: <001701c0ec60$79780c20$26ed7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) who died last year = of cancer. I am writing a family history and I want to find out more = about life in the 303rd while Jim was there. I am particularly = interested in finding out more about the missions Jim flew, particularly = Oscherlebein mission which was Jim's worst. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) = who died=20 last year of cancer.  I am writing a family history and I want to = find out=20 more about life in the 303rd while Jim was there.  I am = particularly=20 interested in finding out more about the missions Jim flew, particularly = Oscherlebein mission which was Jim's worst. =20
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0EC3E.F1C7BB20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 22:44:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:44:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: Lloyd The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the rip cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy somewhat toward the airplane. Whether it went over your head ,Butt front or back shoulders or big toes would depend on where it came from, Back pack or chest pack, and what part of your shapely body was falling first. The chute does not leave you. YOU leave the chute. If your feet are leading your fall it will deploy over your head. If your head is leading your fall it will deploy over your feet. If you grabbed your lunch pail when you bailed out instead of your chute, you'd better eat fast because you are very soon going to hit the ground at 120 MPH, Unless of course you bailed out over the water. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 3 23:13:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:13:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <15.1542bf7b.284c109d@aol.com> Please unsubscribe me from this mailing list. Thank you, Chuck From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 14:24:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:24:31 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: Hi Bill: I flew on Texas Raiders in 1991 with a former pilot from the 91st BG(H)! Raiders is a Douglas-built B-17 and never saw any action during the war except on the homefront. She is decked out in the markings of the 381st BG from Ridgewell, England, and you will note the BIG Triangle L on her tail. She is a fine bird, well restored, with many wartime features. If you get to fly on her, be sure to go up into the top turret during flight and get a 360 of her fuselage and wings, the view is spectacular. No one is allowed in the ball and tail during flight, however, if you are feeling adventurous, you might talk the ground crew into opening the ball and might be able to squeeze ino the tail. In the radio room, there are pictures of her restoration, be sure to see these. And if Patt is the pilot, tell him I said hi (he doesn't like his last name used public.) Raiders was features in a television commercial back in the 80's called "Don't Mess With Texas," a campaign designed to eliminate litter on Texas roadways - maybe you remember it. In the ad, you see an old pickemup truck cresting a hill and out of the passenger window you see a fast food bag being let loose. The next sequence you see the Fortress coming over the hill at about 15 feet and you hear, "Bombarier to pilot, BOMBS AWAY!" Then the campaign slogan, "DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!" It was a great commercial and won several national awards. Kevin >From: "Bill Owen" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:23:38 -0500 > >Hello Group, >I just read in the paper that the B-17 "Texas Raider" will be here in >Tyler, Texas next Saturday, June 9. Does anyone out there know anything >about the history of this plane? I will go out to see it and may even take >a >ride if it's not too expensive. I've only been inside one B-17 and that was >a few years ago. I know that I will enjoy this one much more since I have >learned so much more about them through this forum. There will also be an >A-26 and B-25 bombers, a P-51 and numerous new jets. I suppose this B-17 >belongs to the Confederate Air Force but the article did not say who it >belongs to. >Just curious to know a little history about this B-17. >Regards, Bill Owen > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 10:20:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 05:20:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: Message-ID: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> To Jack and All: This question was not intended to create offense, nor to dredge up bad memories for anyone. If it has done so, I hope an apology for posing it in the first place will be accepted. In future, may I suggest that a question that is unsuitable, or offensive be brought to the attention of the offender post haste. Ie. " Sorry, but this question is inappropriate and out of line." , or words to that effect. Thank you , Jack. Your reply did the trick. I understand. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > Lloyd > The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were > falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the rip > cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy > somewhat toward the airplane. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 17:37:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:37:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B1BB95A.CDE5288A@attglobal.net> lloyd Grant ... Lighten up on the constant apologies. We are all brittle in one way or another and very few of us mean anything demeanable in our writings. When we do, pray let us do it in private. Your views are as important as anyone's whether or not they have little "inconsistencies" or other items for which you seem to believe you must apologize. Not so. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > To Jack and All: This question was not intended to create offense, nor to > dredge up bad memories for anyone. If it has done so, I hope an apology for > posing it in the first place will be accepted. In future, may I suggest > that a question that is unsuitable, or offensive > be brought to the attention of the offender post haste. Ie. " Sorry, but > this question is inappropriate and out of line." , or words to that effect. > Thank you , Jack. Your reply did the trick. I understand. lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:44 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > > > Lloyd > > The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were > > falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the > rip > > cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy > > somewhat toward the airplane. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:24:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:24:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider Message-ID: <000901c0ed23$a23fc3a0$333f22d1@billowen> Kevin Pearson and Todd Hollritt, thank you very much for all the info on the Texas Raider. Having all this background on the plane will make me enjoy it even more. That's great. Yes, I surely do remember that DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS ad. It was a really good one. I hope there will be a few vets out to the show this weekend. The last one I went to several years ago had maybe 6 or 8 that had flown on the 17's that I got to visit with. It's sad to think that there are fewer of them every day for us to visit with and learn from. Thanks again, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:26:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:26:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort Message-ID: <10e.b12f7a.284d2ce6@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd: I don't know what question you are talking about that I might have taken as Unsuitable of Offensive. Now this is the absolute truth. Believe me. You and all the others who have asked questions on this forum have never ever asked a question that I felt was inappropriate, unsuitable or offensive. You can ask me anything you want to. I may not know the answer. I may not chose to answer, but there is no way I can even come close to being offended unless you use inappropriate language that I wouldn't want my Mother or Daughter to see. I do poke a little attempt at humor in the answers once in a while. Please do not take this as poking fun at you or anyone else. I do it just to lighten life up a bit and maybe get a smile once in a while. YOU DO NOT NEED TO APOLOGIZE. I do not think any of us who were over there and answer your questions are very thin skinned..As for me I have not been mad or upset in over 45 years, and there has been some real experts try. You are welcome to try if you want too but you won't succeed. I'll admit there are a couple of e-mails I get I don't open. I have a delete button, but they don't ask questions I'd want my Mother or Daughter to see. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 13:45:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:45:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] last resort References: <003901c0ecd7$99617a40$218f4d0c@o3n4f8> <3B1BB95A.CDE5288A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000901c0ecf4$49b13720$fc8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, Thanks for your input, sir. In my opinion frequent apologies indicate how "SORRY" ( not regretfull) the apologizer is. I hate to apologize when it is unwarranted, but I hope I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, and to learn from mistakes. Sometimes it is easy to offend in this venue of communication when no offense was ever intended. You can't hear the inflection of a voice, nor see a facial expression as a clue. I have learned from past gaffs to reread what I have written, reconsider the choice of words, and when in doubt save a message to drafts for futher reconsideration prior to posting. Many of the questions asked here are difficult in that they do conjure up old memories; some not so very happy images. I will speak for myself, but I feel that many others of my generation will agree, if we are to further the real History and memory of what your generation did in this War, we must have accurate knowlege of the realities, or be condemned to the versions of it that pander to its " dollar value" and "viewer ratings". I commend everyone of you for the dedication and perseverance you put into fielding these questions, and for your considerate and thoughtful replies; even when such are not merited by a particular question. From the parts, thus evolve the whole. Thank you. Grant. ( if I require censure, my e-mail address will always be available to anyone wishing to communicate a private dissatisfaction, and I will always be open to hearing same.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > lloyd Grant ... > > Lighten up on the constant apologies. We are all brittle in one way or another > and very few of us mean anything demeanable in our writings. When we do, pray > let us do it in private. Your views are as important as anyone's whether or not > they have little "inconsistencies" or other items for which you seem to believe > you must apologize. Not so. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > To Jack and All: This question was not intended to create offense, nor to > > dredge up bad memories for anyone. If it has done so, I hope an apology for > > posing it in the first place will be accepted. In future, may I suggest > > that a question that is unsuitable, or offensive > > be brought to the attention of the offender post haste. Ie. " Sorry, but > > this question is inappropriate and out of line." , or words to that effect. > > Thank you , Jack. Your reply did the trick. I understand. lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:44 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] last resort > > > > > Lloyd > > > The chute deployed exactly AWAY from the relative wind. If you were > > > falling straight down the chute deployed straight up. If you pulled the > > rip > > > cord while you still had a lot of forward motion the chute would deploy > > > somewhat toward the airplane. > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 22:12:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:12:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Texas Raiders...and thoughts Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5C43@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> > In reference to your request about B-17G 44-8372 "Texas Raiders", here is > a little background information... > > Built by Douglas Aircraft in Long Beach California and accepted by the > USAAF on July 12,1945. It was then one of twenty seven B-17G's transferred > to the USN for conversion to a PB-1W "Patrol Bomber" and flown across the > country to Johnsville NAS Pennsylvania beginning its Navy career as > follows > 16 July 45 NAS Johnsville NAMU > May 47 NAS Quonset Pt. VX-4 > 18 April 1950 NAS Norfolk O&R BUAER M&S > 22 Nov 1950 NAS Patuxent River FASRON103 > 28 March 1951 NAS Patuxent River VX-4 > 18 June 1952 " " VW-2 > 03 June 1953 NAS Norfolk O&R BAUER M&S > 18 January 1954 NAS San Diego O&R BAUER M&S > 04 February 1954 Atsugi Japan VW-1 > 15 January 1955 Litchfield Park Arizona NASC 3,257 miles in it's logbook > (Storage) > 25 August 1955 Retired > 10 July 1956 Stricken > > It was then sold by the USN to Aero Service Corp. of Philadelphia Pa. for > $17.510 a high price as most B-17's sold in 1957 were going for between > $7.000 and $10.000 Dollars (You can't even buy a car for that today!) It > began a career as an aerial survey platform. An interesting note is that > 44-83872 was sent to Andrews AFB and painted up in an 8th Air Force paint > scheme for the retirement ceremony for Gen. Curtis LeMay on February > 1,1965! > > It wasn't until September 22,1967 that 44-83872 (N7227C) was purchased by > the Confederate Air Force for a rumored price of $50.000 Dollars!!! The > CAF operated a rag-tag group of WW II relics and this B-17G operated in > it's civil paint scheme for many years, in 1970 it received a horrible > 305th BG camouflage paint scheme and a B-17F S/N 41-24592 and the name > "Texas Raiders". It flew this way with no gun turrets and a huge cargo > door in the fuselage. By 1980 the Fortress was starting to look like a > proper B-17 when it was grounded for a complete restoration in 1983. In > 1986 it was rolled out in a new accurate USAAF 381st BG 533rd Sq. paint > scheme and Pin-up nose art to go with the Texas Raiders name. It underwent > another repaint in the mid 90's and is now one of the most accurate > longest running B-17G's operating today. In 1995 my Dad, Brother and I > took an incredible ride in her from Teterboro Airport here in NJ down the > Hudson River along the NYC skyline and a low pass around the Statue of > Liberty. Dad never imagined his two sons would ever fly with him in his > aircraft, it was a special day! > > So when you see this Fortress next time imagine if you were to tally > it's record in bomb symbols just how many would adorn it's nose, and how > many 8th AF veterans have been part of it's crew! > > On a sad note I took Dad back to Teterboro this weekend to see B-17G > "Yankee Lady" operated by the Yankee Airforce (Exactly one year since we > saw Sally-B fly over Molesworth last year! - HAPPY BIRTHDAY 303rd Memorial > !!!!), as we walked amongst the crowd of spectators on Sunday a strange > realization struck me.... where are all the former USAAF veterans? We > always bumped into a bunch of gray haired men scurrying around "Their" > aircraft reminiscing about missions and incidents from the past, it always > made the Fortress come alive, there were none in attendance accept Dad. He > struck up conversation with a few people who were amazed that anyone who > flew on the "Thing" were in attendance. Almost all related the History > Channel "Suicide Mission" show when he mentioned he was a Ball Turret > Gunner. It was so different just a few years ago :( We will be in > Reading Pa. this weekend for the WW II air show / reenactment, Dad will be > there in his original 303rd uniform! A few year's ago he found 26 Ball > Turret gunners out there, I wonder how many will drift through the hanger > this year? > > It's refreshing to see so many of you guys on-line, a belated Memorial > Day wish to you all, and on behalf of all the brit's we met in England, > young and old alike "Thanks! For saving our Country" > > Todd (303rd BGA Member A-637) > > Hey Brian! How was the Hanger Dance last night???? > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 23:06:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:06:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS Message-ID: <000501c0ed42$8d5a3e60$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> JACK R.-- You are so right. I think military life will enure you from a lot of "ego bruisers". I soon learned that you don't volunteer and you learn to roll with the flow. WE all have to "sell ourselves" to people the we meet. Like the sales man when ask how he like his job and the people he had to deal with. " I get a long fine. I have been spit on, cussed, discussed, called names, ejected from offices and thrown down stairs but I have never been insulted.". As for me I really don't care what you call me --- just don't ignore me! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 23:35:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:35:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS Message-ID: To M.J.Paulk.....got the Molesworth Tape today and will view it tonight. Will make a copy to hang on to for emergencies or whatever and send the "original" tomorrow. Question: Who's the lucky recipient? Can't find a next addressee anywhere...I apologize if it's staring me right in the face. Please advise. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:41:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:41:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member References: <001701c0ec60$79780c20$26ed7ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <001401c0ed25$ed087060$78874d0c@o3n4f8> You have come to the right place. Be patient, listen, and one, if, not all of the people here will help you. Count on it. I wish you the very best. Welcome to the 303rd BGA, the real History Channel. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) who died last year of cancer. I am writing a family history and I want to find out more about life in the 303rd while Jim was there. I am particularly interested in finding out more about the missions Jim flew, particularly Oscherlebein mission which was Jim's worst. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:49:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:49:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider References: <000901c0ed23$a23fc3a0$333f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <002601c0ed27$1d244e80$78874d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Owen, it costs about $450.00 for a half hour flight the last time I asked. It might be more now, because the cost of gas and maintenance has gone way up. If you can swing it, DO IT. It will be an unforgettable experience; I am reasonably certain I can promise you that. Hope you make the trip, and will tell me about it. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Owen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Texas Raider > Kevin Pearson and Todd Hollritt, thank you very much for all the info on the > Texas Raider. Having all this background on the plane will make me enjoy it > even more. That's great. Yes, I surely do remember that DON'T MESS WITH > TEXAS ad. It was a really good one. > > I hope there will be a few vets out to the show this weekend. The last one I > went to several years ago had maybe 6 or 8 that had flown on the 17's that I > got to visit with. It's sad to think that there are fewer of them every day > for us to visit with and learn from. > > Thanks again, Bill Owen > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 19:53:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:53:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS References: <000501c0ed42$8d5a3e60$16bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <002a01c0ed27$b19ae600$78874d0c@o3n4f8> My buddy, the Mountain Man. Good medicine, brother! Thank you. HC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS > JACK R.-- You are so right. I think military life will enure you from a lot > of "ego bruisers". I soon learned that you don't volunteer and you learn > to roll with the flow. WE all have to "sell ourselves" to people the we > meet. Like the sales man when ask how he like his job and the people he had > to deal with. " I get a long fine. I have been spit on, cussed, discussed, > called names, ejected from offices and thrown down stairs but I have never > been insulted.". As for me I really don't care what you call me --- just > don't ignore me! > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 20:04:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:04:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS References: Message-ID: <003301c0ed29$338e9c00$78874d0c@o3n4f8> Your call, Maurice, but since it is in Florida may I suggest: Anne E. Grant, 449 Baynard Dr., Venice, Fl. 34285. AnnebessF@gateway.net , or, Fred P. Reichmann, 3640 Monteigne Dr., Pensacola, Fl. 32504-4537. FredP.2000@msn.com . Just a suggestion, but that would clear the Florida log. Regards, Lloyd . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS > To M.J.Paulk.....got the Molesworth Tape today and will view it tonight. > Will make a copy to hang on to for emergencies or whatever and send the > "original" tomorrow. Question: Who's the lucky recipient? Can't find a > next addressee anywhere...I apologize if it's staring me right in the face. > Please advise. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 04:15:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:15:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOLESWRTH TAPE-- Lloyd G. & Bob H. Message-ID: <000501c0ed6d$b7bfea80$2abb9ace@mjpmtman> LLOYD GRANT--YOUR CALLING THE SHOTS--- JUST TOSSED THE TAPE IN TO GET THINGS GOING. BOB HAND---- If your waiting for me to speak --take the first name and that one can send it to the next one -------------O. K. ????????? Maurice From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 4 22:38:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:38:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS References: Message-ID: <007001c0ed3e$a748df60$f98e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, send the tape to Anne E. Grant, 449 Baynard Dr., Venice, Fl. 34285. Let me know when you have sent it , and I will give Anne the "heads up". Thank you. Lloyd Grant. ( you too Mtn. Man). palidin@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS > To M.J.Paulk.....got the Molesworth Tape today and will view it tonight. > Will make a copy to hang on to for emergencies or whatever and send the > "original" tomorrow. Question: Who's the lucky recipient? Can't find a > next addressee anywhere...I apologize if it's staring me right in the face. > Please advise. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 13:34:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:34:22 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS Message-ID: <20010605123422.YKJC2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> How does one get on the Molesworth Tape list? Bill Runnels, 4419 West 82nd Street, Bloomington, Mn 55437 Thanks, Bill > Bob, send the tape to Anne E. Grant, 449 Baynard Dr., Venice, Fl. 34285. > Let me know when you have sent it , and I will give Anne the "heads up". > Thank you. Lloyd Grant. ( you too Mtn. Man). > palidin@worldnet.att.net > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 08:31:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 03:31:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS References: <20010605123422.YKJC2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0ed91$9be52360$958f4d0c@o3n4f8> Just like that, Mr. Runnels. James Phillips should be recieving the tape shortly. He is in Michigan. I'll have him pass it on to you, Ok. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS > How does one get on the Molesworth Tape list? Bill > Runnels, 4419 West 82nd Street, Bloomington, Mn 55437 > Thanks, Bill > > Bob, send the tape to Anne E. Grant, 449 Baynard Dr., Venice, Fl. 34285. > > Let me know when you have sent it , and I will give Anne the "heads up". > > Thank you. Lloyd Grant. ( you too Mtn. Man). > > palidin@worldnet.att.net > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 20:13:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:13:32 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS Message-ID: <20010605191332.PEOY6716.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Thanks Lloyd. I look forward to viewing the tape...Bill > Just like that, Mr. Runnels. James Phillips should be recieving the tape > shortly. He is in Michigan. I'll have him pass it on to you, Ok. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS > > > > How does one get on the Molesworth Tape list? Bill > > Runnels, 4419 West 82nd Street, Bloomington, Mn 55437 > > Thanks, Bill > > > Bob, send the tape to Anne E. Grant, 449 Baynard Dr., Venice, Fl. > 34285. > > > Let me know when you have sent it , and I will give Anne the "heads up". > > > Thank you. Lloyd Grant. ( you too Mtn. Man). > > > palidin@worldnet.att.net > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 22:44:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:44:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] TIN SKIN & STOMPED ON FEELINGS Message-ID: <26.166337fb.284eaca5@aol.com> Side note: In the June 2001 issue of National Geographic ("Asia's Last Lions"), there is a long article on WALES (p.62) and on the map page there stands Valley (alias Anglesey) right at the top. For your info. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 5 17:16:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <000001c0ee58$6593ed60$371b4e0c@o3n4f8> Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this situation: SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. Fergusons' death in this manner? If it was accidental (not related to a combat incident) would there have been an inquirey into the circumstances? Is it possible for an individual to recognize the onset of anoxia and take rational steps to prevent loss of consciousness? I know the subject has been touched on before, but help in solving this mystery will bring some closure for some of Paul Fergusons' family members. Thanks for any and all comments on this subject. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 15:54:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:54:28 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <20010606145429.MKJR2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Frostbite and loss of oxygen (anoxia) were two major concerns at altitude. I don't think the one in trouble with anoxia can do anything about it. You just go to sleep. As bombardier, I had the responsibility for oxygen checks on our crew. The command was, "bombardier to crew, oxygen check tail to nose". If a crew member did not respond we sent someone to check on him. I don't remember the frequency of the checks but it was a matter of minutes. A disconnect of the oxygen hose was often the problem. Bill > Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > situation: > > SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 16:09:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:09:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen In-Reply-To: <000001c0ee58$6593ed60$371b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: On 5 Jun 01, at 12:16, Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > situation: > > SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. Fergusons' death in > this manner? ...... Probably completely unrelated, and I know it is the wrong squadron, but the weekly report from the 360thBS for Jan 16 1943 had a note at the bottom stating that ~ combat crews were inadequately trained back in the states for high altitude formation flying ~ , and made the recommendation that more training in simulated combat situations at high altitude be given. Ie, the point of my comment is that Jan 3 1943, was only their 9th mission, so I would have to assume that they were still in the learning phases, and perhaps hadn't yet instituted the check routines or other procedures? It was interesting that this same weekly report commented on the fact that the B-17F had a blind spot (with respect to guns ) to the front, and recommended installation of a nose turrett. Since G models were presumably under construction at this time, I assume this suggestion was made with the knowledge that the G model was coming out with these turrets, or is it possible that the nose turret was added to the G model after the orders for the planes had been placed? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 09:28:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 04:28:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: <20010606145429.MKJR2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <000701c0ee62$a8a70e20$8d8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Runnels, Thank you for your reply. You confirm what I have passed along to Paul Fergusons' niece anent the frequency of the oxygen checks. Is it possible that in the heat of repelling an attack , the oxygen check might have been curtailed for the duration of time it would take for an individual to succumb to the effects of anoxia? This sounds like a more plausible explaination, than inattention. I do not have the mission report available for reference. Again, thank you, sir. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > Frostbite and loss of oxygen (anoxia) were two major > concerns at altitude. I don't think the one in trouble > with anoxia can do anything about it. You just go to > sleep. As bombardier, I had the responsibility for > oxygen checks on our crew. The command was, "bombardier > to crew, oxygen check tail to nose". If a crew member > did not respond we sent someone to check on him. I don't > remember the frequency of the checks but it was a matter > of minutes. A disconnect of the oxygen hose was often > the problem. Bill > > Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > > situation: > > > > SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > > 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > > deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > > crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 10:16:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:16:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: Message-ID: <007501c0ee69$4f8ea8a0$8d8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Bill. Every piece of information helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > > > On 5 Jun 01, at 12:16, Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > > situation: > > > > SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > > 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > > deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > > crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. Fergusons' death in > > this manner? ...... > > Probably completely unrelated, and I know it is the wrong > squadron, but the weekly report from the 360thBS for Jan 16 1943 > had a note at the bottom stating that ~ combat crews were > inadequately trained back in the states for high altitude formation > flying ~ , and made the recommendation that more training in > simulated combat situations at high altitude be given. > Ie, the point of my comment is that Jan 3 1943, was only their > 9th mission, so I would have to assume that they were still in the > learning phases, and perhaps hadn't yet instituted the check > routines or other procedures? > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 17:59:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:59:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] suscribe Message-ID: <000901c0eeaa$0fdd8280$382664d8@computer> Please reinstate me to talk. Ed Lamme junned@humboldt1.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 18:11:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:11:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: <000001c0ee58$6593ed60$371b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B1E6439.7A9A7C9E@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant ... There is NO way to note the onset of Anoxia, or deprivation of oxygen. All air crew memebers were put through oxygen training and spent time in an altitude chamber where oxygen was deprived and the results noted. Attendants beside you took pains to see no permanent damage was done. In fact, one can die HAPPY with anoxia and that is why I tell the bleeding hearts who think capital punishment is so severe, that they could use an oxygen tank. You die HAPPY. As to WHY a crewmember may have died from lack of oxygen, it could be many things, but usually his oxygen lines were cut or damaged by enemy fire from bullets or flak. In this case, even an oxygen check, which we performed VERY often, may not learn of the problem in time. As to "investigation" of certain things which occur in combat, be advised that many things were EXPECTED and known that they COULD happen in combat situations. There was no time to conduct extensive investigations, but ALL occurrences which hurt our endeavor, WERE investigated in a manner so as to reduce any further occurrences, if possible. Remember, Lloyd, we were AT WAR. Things are different. For example we did not have "counselors" or "friends" to hold our hands after a disastrous mission. Today, such is legion, but we did not have the time nor personnel for such. You will probably received more input from others. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > situation: > > SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. Fergusons' death in > this manner? If it was accidental (not related to a combat incident) would > there have been an inquirey into the circumstances? Is it possible for an > individual to recognize the onset of anoxia and take rational steps to > prevent loss of consciousness? > I know the subject has been touched on before, but help in solving this > mystery will bring some closure for some of Paul Fergusons' family members. > Thanks for any and all comments on this subject. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 11:13:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 06:13:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] suscribe References: <000901c0eeaa$0fdd8280$382664d8@computer> Message-ID: <009701c0ee71$4f541700$8d8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Welcome home, Ed Lamme. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Lamme" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:59 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] suscribe > Please reinstate me to talk. Ed Lamme junned@humboldt1.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 11:30:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 06:30:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: <000001c0ee58$6593ed60$371b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B1E6439.7A9A7C9E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00b701c0ee73$c33739c0$8d8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. Thank you for a well written and definitive response to this question. I will pass it along, and I sincerely hope there will be some closure in this for SSgt. Fergusons' family members. ( ps. I would not wish a Happy death for some on death row.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > Lloyd Grant ... > > There is NO way to note the onset of Anoxia> Things are different. For example we did not have "counselors" or "friends" to > hold our hands after a disastrous mission. Today, such is legion, but we did > not have the time nor personnel for such. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 19:48:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:48:58 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen In-Reply-To: <20010606145429.MKJR2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail .worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010606084858.008a85b0@ilhawaii.net> I can tell you that a person would probably not notice the onset of anoxia. On one of my missions I could not get the ball turret to work. One of the hydraulic motors seemed to be frozen and the turret would not rotate. I would get in and out of the turret trying different things and each time I would have to disconnect and reconnect my oxygen. We were over the Zuider Zee and the next thing I knew I felt the waist gunner tap me on the shoulder and tell the pilot said for me to get out and use one of the waist guns. To my amazement the bomb bay doors were open and we were on the bomb run. I looked out the window and there was a lot of flak and I saw a B-17 going down. It was the most terrifying of all my missions. I had failed to answer the oxygen check and the waist gunner found me unconscious. He reconnected my oxygen hose and brought too with pure oxygen.I was lucky that our crew was on the ball. I never again failed to check the safety connection on my hose. Jim Walling At 02:54 PM 6/6/01 +0000, you wrote: >Frostbite and loss of oxygen (anoxia) were two major >concerns at altitude. I don't think the one in trouble >with anoxia can do anything about it. You just go to >sleep. As bombardier, I had the responsibility for >oxygen checks on our crew. The command was, "bombardier >to crew, oxygen check tail to nose". If a crew member >did not respond we sent someone to check on him. I don't >remember the frequency of the checks but it was a matter >of minutes. A disconnect of the oxygen hose was often >the problem. Bill >> Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this >> situation: >> >> SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. >> 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen >> deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the >> crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 13:24:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:24:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: <3.0.5.32.20010606084858.008a85b0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <017e01c0ee83$addde1e0$64914d0c@o3n4f8> Sharing that annectdote, supports what the others have contributed on the subject, Jim. Many thanks. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > I can tell you that a person would probably not notice the onset of anoxia. On one of my missions I could not get the ball turret to work. One of the hydraulic motors seemed to be frozen and the turret would not rotate. I would get in and out of the turret trying different things and each time I would have to disconnect and reconnect my oxygen. We were over the Zuider Zee and the next thing I knew I felt the waist gunner tap me on the shoulder and tell the pilot said for me to get out and use one of the waist guns. To my amazement the bomb bay doors were open and we were on the bomb run. I looked out the window and there was a lot of flak and I saw a B-17 going down. It was the most terrifying of all my missions. I had failed to answer the oxygen check and the waist gunner found me unconscious. He reconnected my oxygen hose and brought too with pure oxygen.I was lucky that our crew was on the ball. I never again failed to check the safety connection on my hose. > > Jim Walling > > > > > At 02:54 PM 6/6/01 +0000, you wrote: > >Frostbite and loss of oxygen (anoxia) were two major > >concerns at altitude. I don't think the one in trouble > >with anoxia can do anything about it. You just go to > >sleep. As bombardier, I had the responsibility for > >oxygen checks on our crew. The command was, "bombardier > >to crew, oxygen check tail to nose". If a crew member > >did not respond we sent someone to check on him. I don't > >remember the frequency of the checks but it was a matter > >of minutes. A disconnect of the oxygen hose was often > >the problem. Bill > >> Perhaps someone can help me understand what might have gone wrong in this > >> situation: > >> > >> SSgt Paul Ferguson, TG 427th Sq. listed on mission report as KIA ( rtb) Jan. > >> 3, 1943. The cause of death was attributed to Anoxia , or, oxygen > >> deprivation. In lieu of the requirement for frequent check-ins amongst the > >> crew members, what factors may have contributed to Sgt. > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 13:29:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:29:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check in re: MW tape... Message-ID: <018401c0ee84$6870f1a0$64914d0c@o3n4f8> Can I call for a check in on the Molesworth Tape, please? Who has it, who has passed it on, and who is now ready to pass it on? Merci beaucoup, mes amis. ( thankee, y'all ). Lloyd. palidin@worldnet.att.net. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 20:46:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:46:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: That softball-sized "walk-around" oxygen bottle was no bargain....supposed to give you about four minutes supply, it often gave out on a nose to waist journey. What about using a chute...the nearest we ever got in training was that 30-ft. tower routine, far from the experience of jumping with high altitude clothing into a minus-fifty degree atmosphere. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 20:59:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:59:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check in re: MW tape... Message-ID: <99.15f28992.284fe5a8@aol.com> Lloyd, I received. viewed and remailed the tape this morning to Anne Grant per your suggestion. Very nostalgic tape and the historic background along with it is invaluable. Just a suggestion...there being no soundtrack behind it, try viewing it while listening to "Victory At Sea".....a different venue, but some of the eye-ear coincidences are surprising. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 14:33:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:33:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: Message-ID: <018a01c0ee8d$3d573a20$64914d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks, Bob. I wonder if there are any KIA statistics for this particular casualty occurance. ( I believe we, the "youngsters" are learning something new and important to our understanding from the veterans responses to this question. So, on behalf of the "baton" bearers, Thank you all, again, for your excellent recollections and replies.) Lloyd Grant. ps. Bob, Jack Rencher finally figured out what I was trying to ask about the parachute and harness connection, and explained it in less than 30 words. Ie. at the connection points a strap with tear away threading brought the canopy and shrouds up and over the shoulders of the chutist. This "riser" strap was more firmly attached at the shoulder of the harness, and to the parachute. Unfortunately, I did not ask the question very well, so there was alot of " what the H... , is this guy asking us". On this question also, thanks to all who tried; Jack gets the prize, tho. ( a special gift subscription to , " Grants' Chaotic Questions" e-mailed hourly.) Jack, smile, I am just kidding, put the pistol down... ( grins ). Seriously, thanks to you all. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > That softball-sized "walk-around" oxygen bottle was no bargain....supposed to > give you about four minutes supply, it often gave out on a nose to waist > journey. What about using a chute...the nearest we ever got in training was > that 30-ft. tower routine, far from the experience of jumping with high > altitude clothing into a minus-fifty degree atmosphere. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 14:45:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check in re: MW tape... References: <99.15f28992.284fe5a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <019d01c0ee8f$0067a3a0$64914d0c@o3n4f8> I agree, Bob. I would have a medley of background music added to the tape, ie. "Don't Stand Under The Apple Tree", " We'll Meet Again", and " Bless 'em All". When I get my copy back, I might try doing something like that. Thanks for your comments, and for checking in. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Check in re: MW tape... > Lloyd, I received. viewed and remailed the tape this morning to Anne Grant > per your suggestion. Very nostalgic tape and the historic background along > with it is invaluable. Just a suggestion...there being no soundtrack behind > it, try viewing it while listening to "Victory At Sea".....a different venue, > but some of the eye-ear coincidences are surprising. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 23:37:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:37:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <94.15182c73.28500a8f@aol.com> War is Hell but Sherman didn't let us know just how Hellish war really is. There is a monument at Gowen Field in Boise Idaho where the 303rd was organized that has written thereon" If free men are to exist on this earth they must be prepared to fight and even die to maintain that freedom" This is just as true as Sherman's famous three words. The Blacks in Africa were not prepared to fight and they lost their freedom. The Jews in Germany were not prepared to fight and they lost their lives. The French, Danish Dutch, Belgians, Poles and others were not prepared to fight and they lost their lives and their freedom. The American Colonies were not prepared to fight but we were Americans and had a big ocean that gave us time to get prepared and are still somewhat free but our fight is not over yet but that is another story. If it had not been for the many Men like Sgt. Paul Ferguson we very well could be living under a Nazi Dictator along with the rest of the World to this day. The story I"m gong to tell you is mostly true. I'm going to change it just a little to show you one of the probable ways it could have happened to Paul I was not on Paul's crew but I was on one like it and fighting the same War. AT altitude we mix pure Oxygen with the thin air up there. The higher we go the more pure Oxygen we mix with the thin air, Above about 20,000 feet we are breathing pure Oxygen to get enough. Every 30 seconds or so we would have an Oxygen check. The Bombardier or someone he would designate would say one word. "Check" on the intercom, Not on the radio. Then starting at the tail every one would state his position. Tail, Waist, Ball, Radio, Engineer. Then 30 seconds later and every 30 seconds thereafter if possible, until we let down to a low altitude Check, Tail. Waist, Ball, Radio Engineer. The two pilots were sitting side by side and could see each other as were the Navigator and Bombardier in the nose. If someone didn't check in we could and did immediately check on him. We were all trained for high altitude. When you lost your Oxygen you just went to sleep. No pain No warning you just passed out.. If you didn't get Oxygen in two or three minutes you were dead. Here is a word for word story that about 90% what happened on one of my missions. I will cut it short but the attack lasted about 15 or 20 minutes. I think you will get the picture.. I have changed about 10% of this story to show you what could have happened to Paul. The truth would probably be different but who knows. It is probably very similar. We were about 30 minutes from the IP. Top turrett"There's 8 109s passing us at 3 o'clock about 1500 yards at 3 o'clock Copilot watch them 4 of them are turning into us. Tail there are 4 at 6 O'clock high firing at us. I got on of them he is going down smoking. What the hell is that vibration? No 3 engine has no manifold pressure and is shaking like the devil. Feather it quick before it shakes our wing off. The turbo has come apart and a lot of it has come through the radio room and the waist.. Did it hit you? No. Waist are you OK? yes Here they come again12 o'clock high and low. Get them ball and Gus.. I can't keep up give me 2500 & 46 inches and get that damn engine feathered. It wont feather. Use the idle cut off and hold the button in Butler is on fire and going down. Do you see any chutes? yes two now three. Where is McNeel? Look out your right window. Number 3 is feathered. The propeller blades are broken. No wonder it was shaking. Here comes 4 more 1 O'clock a bit high. Those are P51s. Thank God. Check. Check Tail can you hear me? Waist can you hear me? yes Get back there and check on Paul' Ball can you hear me Yes Radio, Engineer, Gus you do the checks I'm going back to the tail. Paul is not breathing I think he is dead. Is he wounded or bleeding? No, his oxygen tube is shot in two. the tail is full of holes. Jack, It looks like we are in real trouble. Do you think we are going to make it? You damn right. You Guys just keep those guns working and we'll fly this bird home. They did and We did. Those of us who are left still morn men like Paul. He is truly a hero. He could very well have saved the whole crew. We can all be very proud of him and the sacrifice he and so many others made to keep us free. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 23:52:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:52:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <61.ec2a574.28500e1a@aol.com> Lloyd, It is possible one might notice he was not functioning properly if he was lacking enough Oxygen but highly unlikely 49 out of 50 people would not realize anything was wrong with them and just pass out. Especially under the stress of a combat situation. This would have nothing to do with radio silence. Oxygen checks were done on the intercom. We only had one Doctor on the field and we had dead and wounded regularly. If someone lost their Oxygen above 20,000 feet or so we didn't need a rocket scientist to investigate. This was a bloody war and we were expendable. There was lots of causalities because of human error no doubt. There are today too. I mailed my tape today to ever who I was supposed to Best Wishes, Jack Rancher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 17:36:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:36:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: <61.ec2a574.28500e1a@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c0eea6$ded114c0$ceb34d0c@o3n4f8> Get the picture, Christina? Never stop remembering your Uncle, or the men that he flew with. They were brothers in a deeper sense, than most of us will ever fathom. Let your Uncle rest in peace, ok? He was doing his duty, and it wasn't to God and Country, it was to his crew mates. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen > Lloyd, It is possible one might notice he was not functioning properly if he > was lacking enough Oxygen but highly unlikely 49 out of 50 people would not > realize anything was wrong with them and just pass out. Especially under the > stress of a combat situation. This would have nothing to do with radio > silence. Oxygen checks were done on the intercom. We only had one Doctor on > the field and we had dead and wounded regularly. If someone lost their > Oxygen above 20,000 feet or so we didn't need a rocket scientist to > investigate. This was a bloody war and we were expendable. There was lots of > causalities because of human error no doubt. There are today too. > I mailed my tape today to ever who I was supposed to > Best Wishes, > Jack Rancher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 6 17:57:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:57:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smoke 'em if you got 'em Message-ID: <007001c0eea9$bc9c0880$ceb34d0c@o3n4f8> Gary, remove me from the list until 11/10/ 01. Thank you. Very best to all, keep your heads up. Molesworth tape enquiries: note this e-mail address: palidin@worldnet.att.net. I love you guys. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 02:39:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:39:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: Thank you for your story and your kind words. It's comforting to know my Uncle Paul did not die in vain. God Bless You, Christina Ramirez From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 02:47:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:47:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: Yes, I get the picture. Thank you for all of your help. I have found out more than I ever thought I would know about what happened to my Uncle Paul. This experience has introduced me to many wonderful people....like yourself :). I am going to stay in the group. Who knows what else I might learn. Take care and God Bless. Please keep in touch (((((((HUGS4U))))))) Christina From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 15:21:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:21:58 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The GI Bill In-Reply-To: <007001c0eea9$bc9c0880$ceb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010607042158.008af100@ilhawaii.net> My highly intelligent wife not only gave me the Hand and Carson books for my birthday, she also gave me the PBS Video, "The GI Bill". The narrator describes this bill as "probably the most successful federal program of all time". I am not a member of the American Legion, but I will always be grateful to them for pushing this bill through Congress. The video is available through pbs.org for $19.95 plus shipping, and i highly recommend it to anyone with an interest in World War II. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 16:07:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:07:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: We lost a champion golfer and his entourage recently when the jet they were flying had an oxygen failure....they flew until the aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed. Of course, the golfer's name escapes me....you know who I mean. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 17:11:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:11:43 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <20010607161144.QCWL8055.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Payne Stewart > We lost a champion golfer and his entourage recently when the jet they were > flying had an oxygen failure....they flew until the aircraft ran out of fuel > and crashed. Of course, the golfer's name escapes me....you know who I mean. > Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 17:20:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:20:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Schulstad Flies Again Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E1AB@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Some of you might remember Major (Col ret.) Mel Schulstad. Mel was a member of the 303rd BG and use to draw back the curtain in the Briefing room. When the war ended he had 44 combat missions. Yesterday June 6th at the age of 84 Mel flew in a B-17 again. Here is the story that local KOMO TV broadcasted: By John Sharify REDMOND - It's all he ever wanted to be. "Always wanted to be a pilot. Always wanted to be a pilot," says 83-year-old Mel Schulstad, whose wish came true in World War II. Schulstad piloted the tough and beloved B-17, a Boeing plane known as the "Flying Fortress" because it could take just about anything. "You could shoot the tail off. You could land it with the wheels up. You could land it with two engines out. It still survived," says Schulstad from his Redmond home. You know he loved the plane, flying 44 bombing missions over Europe. The intended target? German factories, railroads, submarine bases. "Those kinds of things that would cripple the German army and German air force," says Schulstad. Figuring The Odds He knew every time he'd go on a mission, he might not return. "If you put up 20 airplanes every mission, and you lose four every time, that's 20 percent. So you do 20 missions, and you're all gone", says Schulstad, who was called the "Old Man" because he was in his mid-20s when he piloted the bomber. Schulstad will never forget Jan. 23rd 1943. It was the day he became so ill he had to be hospitalized. "I wasn't dying sick, it was that (the doctor) wanted to stop this infection. So I was ordered into the hospital," says Schulstad, who wanted to be with his crew on another mission. "You cannot not go. This is why I'm so painfully remembering the fact that the day my airplane crew was shot down I was in a hospital bed and I would have given my life to get out of that hospital bed to be with those guys when they were shot down," says Schulstad. Seven Dead, Three Survivors Seven of his crew members were killed. Three survived, bailing out, before the bomber crashed. "That airplane from the day it came off the line to the day it was shot down lived 111 days. That was the total lifespan," says Schulstad. That B-17 bomber survived longer than many veterans. Schulstad knows he's one of the lucky ones. And on Wednesday for the first time since August 1945, this retired colonel went for a ride in a B-17 that's making a stop at Boeing Field at the Museum of Flight. "It's given me another memory to hang onto for another 55 years," says Schulstad. Good memories. Painful ones, too. Greg Pierce President, 8th AFHS - WA State From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 17:24:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:24:52 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen References: Message-ID: <3B1FAAD4.129A9E41@attglobal.net> Hand ... The golfer was Payne Stewart ... and the plane did not run out of oxygen. They only carry oxygen for first aid. The plane had a pressurization failure. Very dangerous in "small cabin" planes ... for even a small leak can be disastrous. In very large cabins, ie., DC10 or 747, etc., even an explosive decompression is not too dangerous and a rapid descent can be made. BUT, HERE is an excellent example of "not being able to know when anoxia onsets" ... you just go to sleep. Period. Cheers! Bill Heller Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > We lost a champion golfer and his entourage recently when the jet they were > flying had an oxygen failure....they flew until the aircraft ran out of fuel > and crashed. Of course, the golfer's name escapes me....you know who I mean. > Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 17:29:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:29:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Dance Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E1AD@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Did anyone attend the June 2nd Hanger Dance at Molesworth? If so can you provide me info of where to stay for future events, was unable to find accommodations this time around. Regards Greg Pierce E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 19:40:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:40:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Dance Message-ID: <65.158170ac.285124ad@aol.com> Gregery, May I suggest you try the hotels in Cambridge, about 40 miles Maybe 38 or 39. I also suggest you might consider hiring a college Student as a driver. Those Blimey Englishmen (and Women) drive on the wrong side of the road, Not the right side. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 21:17:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:17:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Schulstad Flies Again Message-ID: Greg, Great story! Thanks for passing it along! Kevin >From: "Pierce, Gregory S" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Schulstad Flies Again >Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:20:03 -0700 > > >Some of you might remember Major (Col ret.) Mel Schulstad. >Mel was a member of the 303rd BG and use to draw back the curtain >in the Briefing room. When the war ended he had 44 combat >missions. Yesterday June 6th at the age of 84 Mel flew >in a B-17 again. Here is the story that local KOMO TV broadcasted: > >By John Sharify > >REDMOND - It's all he ever wanted to be. > >"Always wanted to be a pilot. Always >wanted to be a pilot," says 83-year-old Mel >Schulstad, whose wish came true in World War II. > >Schulstad piloted the tough and beloved >B-17, a Boeing plane known as the "Flying >Fortress" because it could take just about >anything. > >"You could shoot the tail off. You could land it with the wheels up. You >could land it with two engines out. It still survived," says Schulstad from >his Redmond home. > >You know he loved the plane, flying 44 bombing missions over Europe. The >intended target? German factories, railroads, submarine bases. > >"Those kinds of things that would cripple the German army and German air >force," says Schulstad. > >Figuring The Odds He knew every time he'd go on a mission, he might not >return. "If you put up 20 airplanes every mission, and you lose four every >time, that's 20 percent. So you do 20 missions, and you're all gone", says >Schulstad, who was called the "Old Man" because he was in his mid-20s when >he piloted the bomber. > >Schulstad will never forget Jan. 23rd 1943. It was the day he became so ill >he had to be hospitalized. > >"I wasn't dying sick, it was that (the doctor) wanted to stop this >infection. So I was ordered into the hospital," says Schulstad, who wanted >to be with his crew on another mission. > >"You cannot not go. This is why I'm so painfully remembering the fact that >the day my airplane crew was shot down I was in a hospital bed and I would >have given my life to get out of that hospital bed to be with those guys >when they were shot down," says Schulstad. > >Seven Dead, Three Survivors > >Seven of his crew members were killed. Three survived, bailing out, before >the bomber crashed. > > "That airplane from the day it came off the line to the day it was shot >down lived 111 days. That was the total lifespan," says Schulstad. > >That B-17 bomber survived longer than many veterans. Schulstad knows he's >one of the lucky ones. > >And on Wednesday for the first time since August 1945, this retired colonel >went for a ride in a B-17 that's making a stop at Boeing Field at the >Museum of Flight. > >"It's given me another memory to hang onto for another 55 years," says >Schulstad. Good memories. Painful ones, too. > > >Greg Pierce >President, 8th AFHS - WA State > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 7 21:30:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:30:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Dance Message-ID: Greg: I always stay at the Gonville Place - a Best Western Hotel: Gonville Place Hotel (A Best Western Hotel) Gonville Place Cambridge CB1 1LY Phone: 011.44.1223.366611 Fax: 011.44.1223.315470 But there are many, many others in Cambridge and you can find them just about on any travel site. I have also been in the Arundel House, it is nice, but too simnple for my tastes. And Jack is right! Never would I attempt to navigate English roads while sitting on the wrong side of the car and driving in the wrong lane. England would have a few less of her own had the Crown allowed me to drive there! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Dance >Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:40:45 EDT > >Gregery, May I suggest you try the hotels in Cambridge, about 40 miles >Maybe >38 or 39. I also suggest you might consider hiring a college Student as a >driver. Those Blimey Englishmen (and Women) drive on the wrong side of the >road, Not the right side. > Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 01:09:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:09:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <18.da0d3e9.285171c8@aol.com> one item of flight crew training was in a pressure training cell that rose to the high altitude flying heights. we were instructed on problems and how to care for each oyjer. each were instructed to remove their oxygen mask and start witing our name on paper, i made it to dona of my name donald. that is fast loss of reasoning ability. cheers. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 01:13:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:13:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The GI Bill Message-ID: <78.15f50017.285172aa@aol.com> that bill was a dedicated effort by wwii veterans to not let us have soup lines like their dads after wwi and to learn to provide for humankind and preserve their hard fought for freedom we have today. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 02:54:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:54:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loss of oxygen Message-ID: <114.6bda.28518a6d@aol.com> Christina, Thank you for your kind words. Welcome to the 303rd I think Uncle Paul would be pleased to have you join us. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 13:57:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:57:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: digest-Vol 1 #297-oxygen Message-ID: --part1_fd.77a4e7a.2852259f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I was stationed at Plattsburg A.F.B. and went ice fishing one day. I had a small stove and used charcoal to heat it that day to stay warm.I remember the air thinning like high altitude flying. The next thing I remember is waking up about four hours later. I had fallen out the door of the little cabin realized that my camera had been stolen and I was soaking wet. I crawled to my car and after a little while drove home, only to have my wife tell me I looked like "death warmed over". Moral of this story is: No Oxygen, Is Not a Good Thing, Under Any Circumstance Cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_fd.77a4e7a.2852259f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
I was stationed at Plattsburg A.F.B. and went ice fishing one day. I had a
small stove and used charcoal to heat it that day to stay warm.I remember the
air thinning like high altitude flying. The next thing I remember is waking
up about four hours later. I had fallen out the door of the little cabin
realized that my camera had been stolen and I was soaking wet. I crawled to
my car and after a little while drove home, only to have my wife tell me I
looked like "death warmed over". Moral of this story is:
No Oxygen, Is Not a Good Thing, Under Any Circumstance
Cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_fd.77a4e7a.2852259f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 15:41:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:41:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting comments in early weekly reports. Message-ID: Several days ago, in response to the oxygen topic, I mentioned that on the 360thBS microfilm I have, there are some weekly reports for the first 6 months of the war, some of which have comments and recommendations at the bottom. I thought these might be of interest, so I've transcribed those that I could read, and put them in this message below. Several problems seemed to surface in these "comments". First, that apparently the training back in the States didn't do enough to prepare the crews for long missions at high altitude, and that they were not able to provide this training at Molesworth because the planes were always loaded with bombs waiting for a mission. Secondly the nose gun situation, where they first recommended installing a nose turret, then, apparently a nose gun must have been tried which must have interfered with the bombardiers function. Two of the comments caught my eye. One related to pilots not being trained how to fly at high altitude in a way to protect the engine rather than save gas. I'm not sure I completely understand this. Not sure if the pilots were running too lean or at too high an RPM or what, but apparently they were flying in a way that the engines were not holding up. The other comment that caught my eye, was the one which related to new crews coming to Molesworth having been told by instructors that the odds were that they would not make it through a tour, and the recommendation was that Instructors should not intimidate new crew members with fear. This comment is related to a post from Bill Heller several weeks ago, in which he commented on the same thing, although this particular comment referred to specific instructors at something called the "CARC#11", and I don't know what that is, although I may have spelled it wrong. I'm not sure if CARC#11 was back in the states, or if it was a depot for replacement crews in England. In any event, the comments and recommendations are shown below. There aren't many of them, but they are interesting to read. Most of them were submitted by Capt/Major Lyle. #################################################### Jan 9-16 1943 Combat crews inadequately trained in states for high altitude formation bombing ---- Recommendations: Training of combat crews in states for types of missions to be flown in comnbat by simulated actual missions above 20000' Blind spot in nose of B-17F ---- Recommendations: To install nose turret and more armor plate in nose. Feb 6-13 1943 Nose gun installations very poor for accurate firing. ---- Recommendations: Redesign nose without distortion similar to JU-88 Transportation setup causes delays of from 1 hr to 1 1/2 hr in preparing for flights. ---- Recommendations: Turn transport over to squadrons. Feb 13-20 1943 Impossible to train new crews with ships always loaded with bombs pending probable mission. ---- Recommendations: Need more formation flying to acquaint incoming crews with combat technique and problems. Need more aerial gunnery for new crews. Feb 20-27 1943 Pilots and crews not trained for hi altitude work Heating equipment not sufficient for gunners Transportation for crews inadequate ---- Recommendations: Train pilots to save equipment and engines on hi altitude instead of gas. Need heated suit that is more sturdy than one used. Squadron transportation. Feb 27-Mar 6 1943 Heated shoes and gloves too frail for continous use ---- Recommendations: Heavier wire and sturdier shoe Mar 13-20 1943 Cal of guns too small. ---- Recommendations: Need 20&37mm guns throughout ship crews not trained for hi altitude work ---- Recommendations: pilots don't know use of throttle-turbo rpm& mixture control. crews not used to staying in position long hours. Mar 20-27 1943 Excess of pilot replacements ---- Recommendations: need more full crews and airplanes and reassign pilot surplus Apr 3 -10 1943 new crews arriving inproperly trained: gunners not qualified on .50 cal. radio operators not up to standard on code or procedure. Pilots have no training in hi alt formation hi alt bombing (hi alt= > 25,000') hi alt gunnery crews unacquainted with use of oxygen or parachutes ---- Recommendations: produce competent replacement crews instead of training charts. Use experienced combat crew personnel as instructors. Enemy attacks made head on ---- Recommendations: install nose guns while still permitting use of bomb sight. Apr 17 - 24 1943 cal of guns too small ---- Recommendations: need 20mm&37mm guns May 1 - 8 1943 Bomb trailers not suitable for quick loading of bombs ---- Recommendations: US adopt bomb trailers similar to RAF Tactics & experience learned by units in combat not relayed back to training centers sooner. ---- Recommendations: Send men & information from combat zones to US quicker. May 15-22 1943 need for larger calibre guns to combat new enemy tactics. ---- Recommendations: about 20mm May 22-29 1943 Need much heavier cal guns in all positions ---- Recommendations: 20 & 37mm minimum mission altitude should be increased to 28,29,30,000 ---- Recommendations: all pilots should be taught to fly formation at 30,000' and not hurt engines. May 30-June 5 1943 Crews completing combat tour should be back in states as otu instructors within 10 days after completion of tour ---- Recommendations: plan to get crews back to states immediately June 20-26 Replacement crews from CARC#11 are reporting for duty with fears of being unable to finish a combat tour, because of wild statements made by instructors. ---- Recommendations: Instructors should not intimidate new crew members with fear of operational duty. ########################################## ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 16:14:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:14:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The GI Bill Message-ID: <11a.27150.285245f2@aol.com> For additional info on Social Security benefits, check on: www.benefitscheckup.org Heard this on Today Show this AM. Haven't researched it myself, but I will. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 16:25:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:25:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: digest-Vol 1 #297-oxygen Message-ID: You're lucky, Bill! Charcoal broiling in any enclosure like your garage or tent or a bloomin' igloo is bad medicine. I once researched the problem and came up with a figure like broiling one steak indoors was equivalent to inhaling 200 cigarettes. The dangers of using briquettes is shown on every bag of the stuff, such as the release of at least two dozen poisons aside from carbon monoxide. Bon appetit! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 18:48:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:48:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: digest-Vol 1 #297-oxygen References: Message-ID: <3B210FD2.94FE1BC1@attglobal.net> --------------5E181D07020D876335B01FA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bergie ... Had nothing to do with air thinning or higher altitude. Your STOVE FUMES! Happens lots of times with ice fishers in Wisconsin on the many lakes near Madison, especially. Cheers old Buddy! Bill Heller Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > To All, > I was stationed at Plattsburg A.F.B. and went ice fishing one day. I > had a > small stove and used charcoal to heat it that day to stay warm.I > remember the > air thinning like high altitude flying. The next thing I remember is > waking > up about four hours later. I had fallen out the door of the little > cabin > realized that my camera had been stolen and I was soaking wet. I > crawled to > my car and after a little while drove home, only to have my wife tell > me I > looked like "death warmed over". Moral of this story is: > No Oxygen, Is Not a Good Thing, Under Any Circumstance > Cheers, > Bill Bergeron --------------5E181D07020D876335B01FA1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bergie ...

Had nothing to do with air thinning or higher altitude.  Your STOVE FUMES! Happens lots of times with ice fishers in Wisconsin on the many lakes near Madison, especially.

Cheers old Buddy!

Bill Heller

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
I was stationed at Plattsburg A.F.B. and went ice fishing one day. I had a
small stove and used charcoal to heat it that day to stay warm.I remember the
air thinning like high altitude flying. The next thing I remember is waking
up about four hours later. I had fallen out the door of the little cabin
realized that my camera had been stolen and I was soaking wet. I crawled to
my car and after a little while drove home, only to have my wife tell me I
looked like "death warmed over". Moral of this story is:
No Oxygen, Is Not a Good Thing, Under Any Circumstance
Cheers,
Bill Bergeron
--------------5E181D07020D876335B01FA1-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 18:57:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:57:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting comments in early weekly reports. References: Message-ID: <3B211215.B693C19E@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... You may get several comments anent yhour last message ... however, it MUST be realized that in the theatre (combat, that is) we ALWAYS had complaints against training practices in the States. four and five B17s on final approach for example, when in the theatre, you NEVER had that luxury. You were making fighrter approaches with three B17s ON HE RUNWAY at the same time. BUT, in the trainin g command they were worried about SAFETY which reflected ujpon the commander thereof. YES, we HAD to retrain crews in all phases of formatyion AND combat flying when they arrived. As to comments on saving engines, I know of only one item which mattered. STAY IN FORMATION and this at times required horrible use of the throttles, which the constant revving and rerevving of the engines was not good for them, but WHAT THE HELL, we were trying to survive. Except for using a little more RPM than recommended and LESS Manifold Pressure, I can not think of any way a pilot could otherwise save his engines and fly combat formation. You will probably get a lot of comments ... many of the items you mentioned were the result of debriefing of crews. NATURALLY we wanted HIGHER calibre guns, etc. Hell, the Luftwaffe was hurling rockets AND 20 mm CANNON at us! But, WE WON! Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > Several days ago, in response to the oxygen topic, I mentioned > that on the 360thBS microfilm I have, there are some weekly > reports for the first 6 months of the war, some of which have > comments and recommendations at the bottom. I thought these > might be of interest, so I've transcribed those that I could read, and > put them in this message below. > Several problems seemed to surface in these "comments". > First, that apparently the training back in the States didn't do > enough to prepare the crews for long missions at high altitude, and > that they were not able to provide this training at Molesworth > because the planes were always loaded with bombs waiting for a > mission. Secondly the nose gun situation, where they first > recommended installing a nose turret, then, apparently a nose gun > must have been tried which must have interfered with the > bombardiers function. > Two of the comments caught my eye. One related to pilots not > being trained how to fly at high altitude in a way to protect the > engine rather than save gas. I'm not sure I completely understand > this. Not sure if the pilots were running too lean or at too high an > RPM or what, but apparently they were flying in a way that the > engines were not holding up. > The other comment that caught my eye, was the one which > related to new crews coming to Molesworth having been told by > instructors that the odds were that they would not make it through > a tour, and the recommendation was that Instructors should not > intimidate new crew members with fear. This comment is related > to a post from Bill Heller several weeks ago, in which he > commented on the same thing, although this particular comment > referred to specific instructors at something called the "CARC#11", > and I don't know what that is, although I may have spelled it wrong. > I'm not sure if CARC#11 was back in the states, or if it was a depot > for replacement crews in England. > In any event, the comments and recommendations are shown > below. There aren't many of them, but they are interesting to read. > Most of them were submitted by Capt/Major Lyle. > > #################################################### > > Jan 9-16 1943 > > Combat crews inadequately trained > in states for high altitude > formation bombing > ---- Recommendations: > Training of combat crews in states for types > of missions to be flown in comnbat by > simulated actual missions above 20000' > > Blind spot in nose of B-17F > ---- Recommendations: > To install nose turret and more armor plate in nose. > > Feb 6-13 1943 > > Nose gun installations very poor > for accurate firing. > ---- Recommendations: > Redesign nose without distortion similar to JU-88 > > Transportation setup causes delays of from > 1 hr to 1 1/2 hr in preparing > for flights. > ---- Recommendations: > Turn transport over to squadrons. > > Feb 13-20 1943 > > Impossible to train new crews > with ships always loaded with > bombs pending probable mission. > ---- Recommendations: > Need more formation flying to acquaint incoming > crews with combat technique and problems. > Need more aerial gunnery for new crews. > > Feb 20-27 1943 > > Pilots and crews not trained for hi altitude work > Heating equipment not sufficient for gunners > Transportation for crews inadequate > ---- Recommendations: > Train pilots to save equipment and engines on > hi altitude instead of gas. > Need heated suit that is more sturdy than one used. > Squadron transportation. > > Feb 27-Mar 6 1943 > > Heated shoes and gloves too frail for continous use > ---- Recommendations: > Heavier wire and sturdier shoe > > Mar 13-20 1943 > > Cal of guns too small. > ---- Recommendations: > Need 20&37mm guns throughout ship > > crews not trained for hi altitude work > ---- Recommendations: > pilots don't know use of > throttle-turbo rpm& mixture control. > crews not used to staying in position long hours. > > Mar 20-27 1943 > Excess of pilot replacements > ---- Recommendations: > need more full crews and airplanes > and reassign pilot surplus > > Apr 3 -10 1943 > new crews arriving inproperly trained: > gunners not qualified on .50 cal. > radio operators not up to standard on code or procedure. > Pilots have no training in > hi alt formation > hi alt bombing (hi alt= > 25,000') > hi alt gunnery > crews unacquainted with use of oxygen or parachutes > > ---- Recommendations: > produce competent replacement crews > instead of training charts. > Use experienced combat crew > personnel as instructors. > > Enemy attacks made head on > ---- Recommendations: > install nose guns while still permitting use > of bomb sight. > > Apr 17 - 24 1943 > > cal of guns too small > ---- Recommendations: > need 20mm&37mm guns > > May 1 - 8 1943 > > Bomb trailers not suitable for quick loading of bombs > ---- Recommendations: > US adopt bomb trailers similar to RAF > > Tactics & experience learned by units in combat > not relayed back to > training centers sooner. > ---- Recommendations: > Send men & information from combat zones to US quicker. > > May 15-22 1943 > > need for larger calibre guns > to combat new enemy tactics. > ---- Recommendations: > about 20mm > > May 22-29 1943 > Need much heavier cal > guns in all positions > ---- Recommendations: > 20 & 37mm minimum > > mission altitude should be increased to 28,29,30,000 > ---- Recommendations: > all pilots should be taught > to fly formation at > 30,000' and not hurt engines. > > May 30-June 5 1943 > Crews completing combat tour should be back in states as otu > instructors > within 10 days after completion > of tour > ---- Recommendations: > plan to get crews back to states > immediately > > June 20-26 > Replacement crews from CARC#11 are > reporting for duty with fears of being > unable to finish a combat tour, because of wild statements made > by instructors. > ---- Recommendations: > Instructors should not intimidate new crew > members with fear of operational duty. > > ########################################## > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 21:20:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:20:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting comments in early weekly reports. Message-ID: Taking a guess here that CARC#11 is most likely CCRC#11, or Combat Crew Replacement Center, an area where crews arriving in theater were processed then sent to particular Bomb Groups. There might be a CARC, but I would have no idea what it is/was. Kevin "The only thing can't did was never try." PS - Thanks for the effort in posting the notes. They are facinating to read. Imagine what people 100 years from now will think? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 21:30:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aviation 101 Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5C65@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Have a great weekend everyone, here's a little aviation wisdom heard around hanger near you! Todd - (303rd BG member A637) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Aviation 101 > > Takeoff's are optional. Landings are mandatory. > > If God meant man to fly, He'd have given him more money. > > If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger, if you > pull the stick back they get smaller. (Unless you keep pulling > the stick back -then they get bigger again) > > Flying is not dangerous; crashing is dangerous. > > It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up > there wishing you were down here. > > The propeller is just a big fan in the front of the plane to keep > the pilot cool. Want proof? Make it stop; then watch the pilot > break out into a sweat. > > Speed is life, altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided > with the sky. > > It's best to keep the pointed end going forward as much as possible. > > The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire. > > Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man.... Landing is > the first! > > Every one already knows the definition of a 'good' landing is one from > which you can walk away. But very few know the definition of a 'great > landing.' It's one after which you can use the airplane another time. > > The probability of survival is equal to the angle of arrival. > > Always remember you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands. > Never let an airplane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to > five minutes earlier. > > You know you've landed with the wheels up when it takes full power > to taxi. > > Those who hoot with the owls by night, should not fly with the > eagles by day. > > A helicopter is a collection of rotating parts going round and round > and reciprocating parts going up and down - all of them trying to > become random in motion. Helicopters can't really fly - they're > just so ugly that the earth immediately repels them. > > Young man, was that a landing or were we shot down? > > Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to > make all of them yourself. > > Trust your captain .... but keep your seat belt securely fastened. > > Any pilot who relies on a terminal forecast can be sold the Brooklyn > Bridge. If he relies on winds-aloft reports he can be sold Niagara > Falls. > > Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad > judgment. > > Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease. > > There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing: > Unfortunately, no one knows what they are. > > The only thing worse than a captain who never flew as copilot is a > copilot who once was a captain. > > Be nice to your first officer, he may be your captain at your > next airline. > > Any attempt to stretch fuel is guaranteed to increase headwind. > > A thunderstorm is never as bad on the inside as it appears on the > outside. It's worse. > > Son, I was flying airplanes for a living when you were still in > liquid form. > > It's easy to make a small fortune in aviation. You start with a > large fortune. > > A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's > flying, and about flying when he's with a woman. > > A fool and his money are soon flying more airplane than he can handle. > > Remember, you're always a student in an airplane. > > Keep looking around; there's always something you've missed. > > Try to keep the number of your landings equal to the number of your > takeoffs. > > You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back. > > There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no > old, bold, pilots! > > Things which do you no good in aviation: Altitude above you. Runway > behind you. Fuel in the truck. Half a second ago. Approach plates > in the car. The airspeed you don't have. > > Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy, > but not for one who still is. > > Asking what a pilot thinks about the FAA is like asking a fireplug > what it thinks about dogs. > > Being an airline pilot would be great if you didn't have to go on all > those trips. > > Gravity never loses! The best you can hope for is a draw! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 8 23:32:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:32:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check in re: MW tape... Message-ID: <63.17361caa.2852ac84@gateway.net> Bob, Thank you very much ... the MW tape arrived today, via priority mail. I will enjoy it this weekend and send it out, by priority mail, as soon as I find out from the list, where to send it next. Best regards, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 9 16:37:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:37:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aviation 101 Message-ID: Yo, Todd, good stuff...thanks for sending it along. Weekend Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 10 01:17:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:17:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Dance Message-ID: <45.789994d.285416aa@aol.com> --part1_45.789994d.285416aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Pierce, We all stayed at a hotel in Cambridge, but I forget the name of the hotel. Bob Finley --part1_45.789994d.285416aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Pierce,      We all stayed at a hotel in Cambridge, but I forget the
name of the hotel.                                                            
       Bob Finley --part1_45.789994d.285416aa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 10 19:07:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:07:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting comments in early weekly reports. Message-ID: Bill Jones, I was not going to answer many more letters, but I am this one. Allow me to make five statements (1) In the states Safety was the first consideration. In the 8th A.F. it was a consideration but way down on the list. That is decision that had to be made if we were to win the war. We couldn't fly 3 airplane out and 3 airplanes back at 15,000 feet and call it high altitude formation and win the war. You see there were no FW190s and ME109s in the US. (2) On long missions we had to be fuel conscious or not get back to Molesworth,especially if we lost an engine. There was no other satisfactory alternate. (3) It was FAR better to replace an engine than to replace a whole crew AND a plane. There was a sign on our instrument panel that said Quote. Use of 2500 and 46 inches and 2400 and 42 inches limited to 5 minutes only On one of my missions we lost two engines on the bomb run. We stayed in formation and dropped our bombs with the formation. The formation made a sharp left turn and increased their speed to 170 MPH indicated. There was no way we could stay in formation with them and there were German fighters all over the place. To have tried to fly home alone that day would have been sure suicide. We got under the formation 50 or 60 feet and flew to the channel there with them. We did it by using the above power settings on our two engines about two hours. I'm sure they changed two engines that night but wasn't that better than getting another B17 and a replacement crew. Especially if that replacement crew was to replace good old me? (4) When I was there the planes were not loaded with bombs waiting for a mission. We didn't know what the bomb load and fuel load would be until in the night just before the mission. (5) The suggestions made were opinions. Most of them were good and made with good intentions and many of them were adapted where feasible. Many had a poor cost/benefit ratio. Lets take the 20 & 37 MM guns for example. Yes, they would have been great, but they were quite heavier so the gun mounts would have to be stronger and bigger as would the frame where they were attached to the plane. All this would add weight and drag. which would cut the bomb load and/or fuel load, hence we would need bigger engines to maintain the performance which would increase fuel consumption, which would require bigger fuel tanks which would require bigger wings to lift them and hold them which would mean a whole new plane which would have taken two years to develope,test and get into production which means we would have lost the war which means we would now be living under a Nazi dictator which means, OH what the Hell. Good bye. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 10 20:21:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:21:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting comments in early weekly reports. Message-ID: <125.1d1138.285522aa@aol.com> bravo!!! jack. the good sensible common sense experience played a great part in the victory. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 11 21:55:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:55:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sign Off References: <000c01c0eb65$f1ef7400$37f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002001c0f2b8$cc88de40$62f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0F27E.1CA8CEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is "Spider" Back home in sunny California,please return me to the = talk room. Dick "Spider" Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick Smith=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:14 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sign Off Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign me off till June !0th as we will = not be home. Dick "Spider" Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0F27E.1CA8CEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is "Spider" Back home in sunny=20 California,please return me to the talk room.
       = Dick "Spider"=20 Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dick = Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 = 6:14=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sign = Off

Hi This is Spider Smith Please sign = me off till=20 June !0th as we will not be home.
 
          Dick = "Spider"=20 Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0F27E.1CA8CEC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 11 23:59:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:59:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited Message-ID: <3B24EAD8.1530.62B5EB@localhost> I just got another letter from the EAA about my upcoming flight in Aluminum Overcast. Now they have moved the location from SLC #2 Airport to the Ogden airport again due to "air density issues." SLC #2 - elevation 4603 - runway 5800 ft Ogden - elevation 4470 - runway 8100 ft The flights are all scheduled in the morning, with the last one at 10am. It's been unusually warm this year, but couldn't be over 70 degrees by 10am. I wonder what the concern is? Any guesses? Ogden does have a better runway, besides being longer. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 11 23:35:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Frank Marshall) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:35:08 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Unsubscribe Message-ID: <007501c0f2c6$c5d215e0$1f510e3f@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F294.7A1A4F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please unsubscribe me. Thank You, Frank Marshall ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F294.7A1A4F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please unsubscribe me.
 
Thank You,
 
Frank = Marshall
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F294.7A1A4F00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 00:42:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited Message-ID: Friend Gary, Knowing me as I do I would guess at anything, I guess. Guess (1) They do not want to use full power for take off to prolong the life of the very rare engines and superchargers. Guess (2) The longer smoother runway would add a very significant safety factor. Guess (3) the emergency and repair facilities are much better at Ogden if needed. Guess (4) Fuel may be available at a better price. Guess (5) It is an unreplaceable practically priceless bird and they will do anything they can to protect it. The choose of the longer lower smoother runway shows good judgment for those responsible. If I was in charge it is the same decision I would make, IF I had to take it out of the hanger and fly it in that area. Guess (6) I guess I am out of guesses. Maybe the pilot has a girl friend at Ogden. Guess Night Gary Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 02:12:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:12:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B2509F2.23999.DC37F2@localhost> Friend Jack, You are the cleverest man I've ever met! All your guess are probably right. She's going from Seattle to Spokane today, then on to Boise. Take care of here so she'll be in top shape when she gets here. > Friend Gary, Knowing me as I do I would guess at anything, I guess. > Guess (1) They do not want to use full power for take off to > prolong the > life of the very rare engines and superchargers. > Guess (2) The longer smoother runway would add a very significant > safety - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 01:45:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:45:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited References: <3B24EAD8.1530.62B5EB@localhost> Message-ID: <3B256611.F91243AB@attglobal.net> GLM ... You may be being fed a lot of gibberish. B17s were ... and many still are ... used in many South American Countries after the war (the one we won) ... I have been to many Andes airports ... they're HIGH! Cheers! WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > I just got another letter from the EAA about my upcoming flight in > Aluminum Overcast. Now they have moved the location from SLC > #2 Airport to the Ogden airport again due to "air density issues." > SLC #2 - elevation 4603 - runway 5800 ft > Ogden - elevation 4470 - runway 8100 ft > > The flights are all scheduled in the morning, with the last one at > 10am. It's been unusually warm this year, but couldn't be over 70 > degrees by 10am. I wonder what the concern is? Any guesses? > Ogden does have a better runway, besides being longer. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 01:51:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:51:36 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited Message-ID: <20010612005137.NIZQ2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Gary. I think Jack missed the most valid reason, ride sales are better in the Ogden area. These promoters work hard for sales and exposure.....Bill Runnels > Friend Jack, > You are the cleverest man I've ever met! All your guess are > probably right. She's going from Seattle to Spokane today, then on > to Boise. Take care of here so she'll be in top shape when she > gets here. > > > Friend Gary, Knowing me as I do I would guess at anything, I guess. > > Guess (1) They do not want to use full power for take off to > > prolong the > > life of the very rare engines and superchargers. > > Guess (2) The longer smoother runway would add a very significant > > safety > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 02:23:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:23:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited Message-ID: <57.1768272b.2856c900@aol.com> Friend Bill Runnels, You are absolutely right. I don't know how I missed that one. I must be getting old. Thanks for helping me out. Excuse number (1) I don't know where Salt Lake Airport # 2 is in relation to Salt Lake City. I know where #1 is but it is one busy Airport so I know why they didn't want to use it. They would have used umpteen thousand more or less gals of fuel while holding. Thanks, keep an eye on me. I need all the help I can get. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 03:32:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:32:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited In-Reply-To: <57.1768272b.2856c900@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B251CB6.21653.125880D@localhost> > Excuse number (1) I don't know where Salt Lake Airport # 2 is in > relation to Salt Lake City. I know where #1 is but it is one busy FYI, SLC Airport #2 is about 7500 South and 4000 West, or about 15 miles due south of #1. It's on the final approach to runway 34. Landing on 34, you almost fly over airport #2, then my house, then you land, hopefully in that order. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 02:54:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:54:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Guess (1) They do not want to use full power for take off to prolong the > life of the very rare engines and superchargers. > Guess (2) The longer smoother runway would add a very significant safety > factor. >..... > Guess (6) I guess I am out of guesses. Maybe the pilot has a girl friend > at Ogden. When I was young, my best friend had a horse. He let me take it for a ride one day. I found out that the horse had a girl friend about a mile away. I never saw a horse more determined to go somewhere, and ignore everything I tried to do to stear him. Never did get him to go home. Just left him tied to a tree near his girl friend, and walked home. Of course this has nothing to do with density altitude, but although guess #1 and #2 make most sense to me, you can never rule out #6. BTW, the previous discussion of density altitude was very interesting to me. I learned a lot. I do a lot of listening to local airports on my scanner, and had never noticed before that one of the items in their weather conditions was density altitude. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 04:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:55:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5C74@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello all, Just wanted to let you know that the WW II Weekend at Reading's (Gen. Carl Spatz Field) was another resounding success. I don't know of another show like this anywhere else. Acres and acres of WW II military hardware, plus this year they even recreated a Pacific Theater island base to highlight the Navy aircraft which included a Corsair plus a TBM and a Dauntless, also parked nearby were the Japanese Imperial Navy "Kate" and "Val" bombers. The 8th airforce was there in abundance with three Flying Fortress's a B-25, C-47 three P-51's and a genuine USAAF Red Cross club mobile parked by a P-47 plus numerous other AT-6, BT-13 and Stearman trainer aircraft. All of the aircraft were in the air all day, the B-17's were constantly up flying as two of them were offering rides at $400.00 a piece, Yankee Lady was trying to offset the cost of two engines that had to be replaced. Rumored at $35.000 each! I never saw so many GI's and Jeeps in my life, the reenactors actually live out there all weekend. A few of the vehicles were painted up for 8th USAAF Bomb Groups too. In one scenario played out was a bomber crew in "Full" WW II flight gear arriving at their hardstand. (Ok, that was were I took my crew photo) It was amazing to see them pile out of the Jeeps with "All" that equipment right down to the navigators briefcase and pilots flimsy for radio codes for the day, a timeless scene in front of the silver B-17G. To much to list here, but some of the other highlights were being caught in a French village in a skirmish that was exactly like the final scene in Saving Private Ryan, the German troops were very intimidating, right down to the use of fluent German language spoken by some of them. My Dad was in the hanger next to a cutaway model of a 303rd B-17G and a full array of USAAF flight gear and operational Norden bomb site, he was decked out in his WW II uniform telling everyone about his days with the "Hells Angels", he was also one of the few veterans giving impromptu talks out by the B-17's. As I was leaving I sat on a grassy hill and watched an F4U Corsair in a very realistic high speed dog fight with the two Japanese A/C, they were really mixing it up swirling over my head for almost a half hour as the sun set. The pilots would even kick on the smoke system if they knew they were hit. An incredible sight and sound to behold! Todd- (303rd BG A637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 07:05:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:05:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5C74@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <3B25B138.A998892B@attglobal.net> Hollritt ... This is all VERY interesting to a fellow who grew up in the Spring City area, had a forced landing on Spaatz' old farm n Boyertown, and landed at Reading Airport many times. Soloed in 1936 out of Paoli and Perkiomen .. Cheers! Bill Heller "Hollritt, Todd" wrote: > Hello all, > Just wanted to let you know that the WW II Weekend at Reading's (Gen. > Carl Spatz Field) was another resounding success. I don't know of another > show like this anywhere else. Acres and acres of WW II military hardware, > plus this year they even recreated a Pacific Theater island base to > highlight the Navy aircraft which included a Corsair plus a TBM and a > Dauntless, also parked nearby were the Japanese Imperial Navy "Kate" and > "Val" bombers. The 8th airforce was there in abundance with three Flying > Fortress's a B-25, C-47 three P-51's and a genuine USAAF Red Cross club > mobile parked by a P-47 plus numerous other AT-6, BT-13 and Stearman trainer > aircraft. All of the aircraft were in the air all day, the B-17's were > constantly up flying as two of them were offering rides at $400.00 a piece, > Yankee Lady was trying to offset the cost of two engines that had to be > replaced. Rumored at $35.000 each! > I never saw so many GI's and Jeeps in my life, the reenactors actually > live out there all weekend. A few of the vehicles were painted up for 8th > USAAF Bomb Groups too. In one scenario played out was a bomber crew in > "Full" WW II flight gear arriving at their hardstand. (Ok, that was were I > took my crew photo) It was amazing to see them pile out of the Jeeps with > "All" that equipment right down to the navigators briefcase and pilots > flimsy for radio codes for the day, a timeless scene in front of the silver > B-17G. > To much to list here, but some of the other highlights were being caught > in a French village in a skirmish that was exactly like the final scene in > Saving Private Ryan, the German troops were very intimidating, right down to > the use of fluent German language spoken by some of them. > My Dad was in the hanger next to a cutaway model of a 303rd B-17G and a > full array of USAAF flight gear and operational Norden bomb site, he was > decked out in his WW II uniform telling everyone about his days with the > "Hells Angels", he was also one of the few veterans giving impromptu talks > out by the B-17's. As I was leaving I sat on a grassy hill and watched an > F4U Corsair in a very realistic high speed dog fight with the two Japanese > A/C, they were really mixing it up swirling over my head for almost a half > hour as the sun set. The pilots would even kick on the smoke system if they > knew they were hit. An incredible sight and sound to behold! > > Todd- (303rd BG A637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 14:26:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:26:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited Message-ID: <9a.158faf93.28577288@aol.com> Side question for Gary....did you ever get the print of 050 and the five unidentified guys standing in front o f the aircraft? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 12 22:30:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:30:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: <001001c0f386$ee76bc60$95df7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0F365.66CE0C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently joined this group. I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob = Sheet's crew) who died last August. He flew between the fall of 1943 = and the fall of 1944. He was in one of the planes that buzzed Yankee = Stadium. I am trying to write a history of Jim's time in the 8th Air = Force. I want to find out more about the missions he was on. I would = also like to read a good book on the 8th Air Force in general and = Molesworth in particular. There are some books on the web site, but = most appear to be out of print. I interviewed him and have talked to = several of the buddies. I have the 303rd CD ROM and have looked at the = Thunderbird web site; Jim flew on several of the missions described = there. I also have a copy of have a copy of Half A Wing Three Engines = and Prayer. Is there anything else I should be looking at? Needless to say, if = anyone remembers him I would like to talk to you. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0F365.66CE0C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I recently joined this group.  I am the nephew = of James=20 Donnelly (Bob Sheet's crew) who died last August.  He flew between = the fall=20 of 1943 and the fall of 1944.  He was in one of the = planes that=20 buzzed Yankee Stadium.  I am trying to write a history of Jim's = time in the=20 8th Air Force.  I want to find out more about the missions he was = on. I=20 would also like to read a good book on the 8th Air Force in = general=20 and Molesworth in particular.  There are some books = on the web=20 site, but most appear to be out of print.  I interviewed him and = have=20 talked to several of the buddies.  I have the 303rd CD ROM and have = looked=20 at the Thunderbird web site; Jim flew on several of the missions = described=20 there.  I also have a copy of have a copy = of  Half=20 A Wing Three Engines and  Prayer.
 
Is there anything else I should be looking at?  = Needless=20 to say, if anyone remembers him I would like to talk to=20 you.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0F365.66CE0C80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 00:58:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:58:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend Message-ID: <109.128e0fa.285806c0@aol.com> todd a grand experience4. some persons put in lots of time and energy getting such opened. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 04:58:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:58:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited References: <20010612231432.A52C35362F@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <005f01c0f3bd$1a086460$9218183f@default> Was always hearing about air density when flying out of the old Denver Stapleton airport. Was always afraid they would start unloading my gear if it was too hot. Seems like it was always on the smaller jets like the 737 or DC 9's. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 04:58:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:58:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 flight and air density - revisited References: <20010612231432.A52C35362F@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <006701c0f3bd$37772ea0$9218183f@default> Was always hearing about air density when flying out of the old Denver Stapleton airport. Was always afraid they would start unloading my gear if it was too hot. Seems like it was always on the smaller jets like the 737 or DC 9's. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 07:38:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:38:01 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F Armament References: <20010612231432.696975362E@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B270A48.4DBA1F89@uswest.net> Hi 303rd- I just received a great firepower diagram that the Germans had on the B-17F on the 91st BG mail ring and it raised some questions I've had for a while. I asked them over there and know there are plenty of guys here at the 303rd who can shed light on the subject for me, too. Here's what I posted at the 91st. I'd appreciate your input, as well. ******* This raises some questions I've had for some time that I'll toss out to the Ring for answers. Namely, when did cheek guns become common (if ever) in Fs, and when were the .30s in the noses replaced by .50s? According to my information, a .50 was field-installed in the nose of Delta Rebel 2 (91st BG) as early as Dec., 1942 at Birdsong's insistence, but the factory-installed .50s on the Fs didn't start showing up in England until May of 43 on the models with "Tokyo Tanks." Had most of the 91st planes been modified with .50s by then, or just a few? Was it a "finagle" to get the .50s, or were they readily available? When the .50s were installed in the front, did the .30 stay onboard for the side windows, or were they fitted with .50s, too? I suppose this may have varied from plane to plane, huh? ********* Comments? Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 16:38:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:38:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: One of the best all around books on the Eighth Air Force is The Mighty Eighth by Roger Freeman. The 8th AFHS now sells the reprint to this excellent book. If you need an address, let me know. What type of information do you want to learn? What it was like to live and fly during that time, historical facts? Kevin >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force >Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:30:40 -0400 > >I recently joined this group. I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob >Sheet's crew) who died last August. He flew between the fall of 1943 and >the fall of 1944. He was in one of the planes that buzzed Yankee Stadium. >I am trying to write a history of Jim's time in the 8th Air Force. I want >to find out more about the missions he was on. I would also like to read a >good book on the 8th Air Force in general and Molesworth in particular. >There are some books on the web site, but most appear to be out of print. >I interviewed him and have talked to several of the buddies. I have the >303rd CD ROM and have looked at the Thunderbird web site; Jim flew on >several of the missions described there. I also have a copy of have a copy >of Half A Wing Three Engines and Prayer. > >Is there anything else I should be looking at? Needless to say, if anyone >remembers him I would like to talk to you. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 17:25:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:25:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew Message-ID: List, Several questions for the ground crew: 1. From what I understand you guys worked all night, were available for take offs and landings. So when did you sleep? Not many missions were 8 to 10 hrs. long. 2. During the early part of the war and maybe all of it, there was a blackout at nite, how did you work at nite w/o lighting up the area? 3. Can you explain how you patched up a hole in the plane? How large a hole could a plane have and still be allowed to fly? 4. Assuming a plane returned from a mission with no damage or other mechanical problems, how long did it take you to get the plane ready for the next mission (not including bombs)? Was there a standard maintenance checklist? If yes, could a copy be made available? 5. Did you have just one plane to maintain or several? Thanks!! Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 18:42:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:42:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew References: Message-ID: <3B27A5FB.B8508087@attglobal.net> "Tooley" ... One query of yours I shall answer .... a hole in the aircraft at any spot required it to be inspected in the event the shell from Flak or the bullet or cannon fire DAMAGED someting beneath the surface which could not be seen from the outside. I can recall returnng from a mission and just as my engines were shut down, a mechanic was on the wing probing and looking at all the "holes" ... especially if the metal was torn back as that indicated a shell from beneath which most likely went through a lot of important things. Do not forget, anything which went out to the engines, such as piping, controls and electircal, HAD to go through the wings, thereofre the close inspection. As to working in the blackout, it wad done with little light, except that INSIDE the mechanic tents when working on small items. When working on the aircraft they had small tiny torches. In general, working in the blackout became sort of easy ... you got to KNOW how to work in it. Hell, even in London, you could "inspect" those commandos who accosted you from time to time .... Also jeeps and other vehicles had low shining VERY THIN slits in their headlights. The other fellows wil probably tell you a lot about your queries. Cheers! Bill Heller "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > List, > Several questions for the ground crew: > > 1. From what I understand you guys worked all night, were available for > take offs and landings. So when did you sleep? Not many missions were 8 to > 10 hrs. long. > 2. During the early part of the war and maybe all of it, there was a > blackout at nite, how did you work at nite w/o lighting up the area? > 3. Can you explain how you patched up a hole in the plane? How large a > hole could a plane have and still be allowed to fly? > 4. Assuming a plane returned from a mission with no damage or other > mechanical problems, how long did it take you to get the plane ready for the > next mission (not including bombs)? Was there a standard maintenance > checklist? If yes, could a copy be made available? > 5. Did you have just one plane to maintain or several? > > Thanks!! > Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 19:40:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:40:09 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <001c01c0f438$468c0020$bfe47ad1@markdonn> Thanks. This was one of the books I wondered about. It sounded good and you have confirmed that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > One of the best all around books on the Eighth Air Force is The Mighty > Eighth by Roger Freeman. The 8th AFHS now sells the reprint to this > excellent book. If you need an address, let me know. > > What type of information do you want to learn? What it was like to live and > fly during that time, historical facts? > Kevin > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > >Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:30:40 -0400 > > > >I recently joined this group. I am the nephew of James Donnelly (Bob > >Sheet's crew) who died last August. He flew between the fall of 1943 and > >the fall of 1944. He was in one of the planes that buzzed Yankee Stadium. > >I am trying to write a history of Jim's time in the 8th Air Force. I want > >to find out more about the missions he was on. I would also like to read a > >good book on the 8th Air Force in general and Molesworth in particular. > >There are some books on the web site, but most appear to be out of print. > >I interviewed him and have talked to several of the buddies. I have the > >303rd CD ROM and have looked at the Thunderbird web site; Jim flew on > >several of the missions described there. I also have a copy of have a copy > >of Half A Wing Three Engines and Prayer. > > > >Is there anything else I should be looking at? Needless to say, if anyone > >remembers him I would like to talk to you. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 20:00:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:00:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew Message-ID: Bill Heller and the rest: I know small people, midgets, were used in the construction of aircraft wings in the States. Do any of you recall the use of midgets on base? Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew >Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:42:20 -0700 > >"Tooley" ... > >One query of yours I shall answer .... a hole in the aircraft at any spot >required it to be inspected in the event the shell from Flak or the bullet >or >cannon fire DAMAGED someting beneath the surface which could not be seen >from >the outside. I can recall returnng from a mission and just as my engines >were >shut down, a mechanic was on the wing probing and looking at all the >"holes" >... especially if the metal was torn back as that indicated a shell from >beneath which most likely went through a lot of important things. Do not >forget, anything which went out to the engines, such as piping, controls >and >electircal, HAD to go through the wings, thereofre the close inspection. > >As to working in the blackout, it wad done with little light, except that >INSIDE the mechanic tents when working on small items. When working on the >aircraft they had small tiny torches. In general, working in the blackout >became sort of easy ... you got to KNOW how to work in it. Hell, even in >London, you could "inspect" those commandos who accosted you from time to >time >.... Also jeeps and other vehicles had low shining VERY THIN slits in >their >headlights. > >The other fellows wil probably tell you a lot about your queries. > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >"Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > List, > > Several questions for the ground crew: > > > > 1. From what I understand you guys worked all night, were available >for > > take offs and landings. So when did you sleep? Not many missions were >8 to > > 10 hrs. long. > > 2. During the early part of the war and maybe all of it, there was >a > > blackout at nite, how did you work at nite w/o lighting up the area? > > 3. Can you explain how you patched up a hole in the plane? How >large a > > hole could a plane have and still be allowed to fly? > > 4. Assuming a plane returned from a mission with no damage or other > > mechanical problems, how long did it take you to get the plane ready for >the > > next mission (not including bombs)? Was there a standard maintenance > > checklist? If yes, could a copy be made available? > > 5. Did you have just one plane to maintain or several? > > > > Thanks!! > > Dave > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 20:42:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:42:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Important... Message-ID: --part1_a2.156a119d.28591c42_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please remove me from the mailing group for the months of June, July and August. I would appreciate it. Mokelou --part1_a2.156a119d.28591c42_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please remove me from the mailing group for the months of June, July and
August.  I would appreciate it.
      Mokelou --part1_a2.156a119d.28591c42_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 21:11:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:11:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Requested Message-ID: --part1_f6.b52c288.2859230f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm Bob Morris, I was with the John Scott crew as a (Tog.) flew 18 missions (360th Sqd.). I was also a 1ST Lt after the war with the 445th Fighter Bomber Wing in Niagra Falls N.Y. Thanks for my chance to join the talk group. Sincerely, Bob --part1_f6.b52c288.2859230f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm Bob Morris, I was with the John Scott crew as a (Tog.) flew 18 missions
(360th Sqd.). I was also a 1ST Lt after the war with the 445th Fighter Bomber
Wing in Niagra Falls N.Y. Thanks for my chance to join the talk group.
Sincerely,
Bob --part1_f6.b52c288.2859230f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 13 21:17:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:17:54 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew References: Message-ID: <3B27CA72.249EDB83@attglobal.net> Pearson ... No midgets were used as far as I know ... besides, we HAD no midgets, in MIND or BODY! However, you are correct, UAL in the US uses them to this day and, I would suppose, do other airlines as well . Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill Heller and the rest: I know small people, midgets, were used in the > construction of aircraft wings in the States. Do any of you recall the use > of midgets on base? > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew > >Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:42:20 -0700 > > > >"Tooley" ... > > > >One query of yours I shall answer .... a hole in the aircraft at any spot > >required it to be inspected in the event the shell from Flak or the bullet > >or > >cannon fire DAMAGED someting beneath the surface which could not be seen > >from > >the outside. I can recall returnng from a mission and just as my engines > >were > >shut down, a mechanic was on the wing probing and looking at all the > >"holes" > >... especially if the metal was torn back as that indicated a shell from > >beneath which most likely went through a lot of important things. Do not > >forget, anything which went out to the engines, such as piping, controls > >and > >electircal, HAD to go through the wings, thereofre the close inspection. > > > >As to working in the blackout, it wad done with little light, except that > >INSIDE the mechanic tents when working on small items. When working on the > >aircraft they had small tiny torches. In general, working in the blackout > >became sort of easy ... you got to KNOW how to work in it. Hell, even in > >London, you could "inspect" those commandos who accosted you from time to > >time > >.... Also jeeps and other vehicles had low shining VERY THIN slits in > >their > >headlights. > > > >The other fellows wil probably tell you a lot about your queries. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >"Tooley, Dave" wrote: > > > > > List, > > > Several questions for the ground crew: > > > > > > 1. From what I understand you guys worked all night, were available > >for > > > take offs and landings. So when did you sleep? Not many missions were > >8 to > > > 10 hrs. long. > > > 2. During the early part of the war and maybe all of it, there was > >a > > > blackout at nite, how did you work at nite w/o lighting up the area? > > > 3. Can you explain how you patched up a hole in the plane? How > >large a > > > hole could a plane have and still be allowed to fly? > > > 4. Assuming a plane returned from a mission with no damage or other > > > mechanical problems, how long did it take you to get the plane ready for > >the > > > next mission (not including bombs)? Was there a standard maintenance > > > checklist? If yes, could a copy be made available? > > > 5. Did you have just one plane to maintain or several? > > > > > > Thanks!! > > > Dave > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 00:35:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:35:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions for the ground crew Message-ID: Kevin, I know of No midgets. Maybe over in engineering where they rebuilt wrecks. If so they would be English civilians I suppose. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 03:20:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:20:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B27BD18.14600.2F82BBF@localhost> > I'm Bob Morris, I was with the John Scott crew as a (Tog.) flew 18 > missions (360th Sqd.). I was also a 1ST Lt after the war with the > 445th Fighter Bomber Wing in Niagra Falls N.Y. Thanks for my chance to > join the talk group. Sincerely, Bob Welcome, Bob. It's been sorta quiet around here today. There are some great people here. We're glad you joined us. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 04:30:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:30:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: --part1_cc.165f755b.285989d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air Force bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and how they appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are Battle of Britain Prints International Ltd. There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last year. The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 Reunion at RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, but it does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with appropriate photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus series and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The author is John N. Smith and the email address is GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_cc.165f755b.285989d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark,
      If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend
Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now.  This book portrays all 8th Air Force
bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and how they
appear today.  The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are Battle
of Britain Prints International Ltd.
      There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last year.  
The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 Reunion at
RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British
airfields.  I have only seen this publication available in England, but it
does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with appropriate
photographs and maps.  Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus series
and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England.  The author is
John N. Smith and the email address is GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com.

Best Wishes,        

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_cc.165f755b.285989d8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 04:52:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:52:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <000b01c0f485$62c3ca00$e309f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F44A.B5A328A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, I just found GMS on the net, and here is their site address : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GMSAVIATIONBOOKS/Booklist.html If you folks want to find a lot of this info right on the net, try out = this site : http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm Gordy. ****************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ****************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Mark,=20 If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would = recommend=20 Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air = Force=20 bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and = how they=20 appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are = Battle=20 of Britain Prints International Ltd.=20 There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last = year. =20 The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 = Reunion at=20 RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British=20 airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, = but it=20 does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with = appropriate=20 photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus = series=20 and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The = author is=20 John N. Smith and the email address is = GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com.=20 Best Wishes, =20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F44A.B5A328A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,
I just found GMS on the net, and here is their = site=20 address :
 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GMSAVIATIONBOOKS/Booklis= t.html
 
If you folks want to find a lot of this info right = on the net,=20 try out this site :
 
http://www= .455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/bases.htm
 
Gordy.
******************************************
"Our = freedom is=20 not free. Please
remember those who fought to keep it."
Gordon L.=20 Alton
129 Mariko Place
Salt Spring Island, BC, Can  = V8K1E1
ph=20 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981
gordy@saltspring.com
********= **********************************
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 = 8:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books = on the=20 8th Air Force

Mark,
      If = you are=20 interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend =
Airfields=20 of the Eighth Then and Now.  This book portrays all = 8th Air=20 Force
bases in England as they were during WWII (including = Molesworth) and=20 how they
appear today.  The author is Roger A. Freeman and = the=20 publishers are Battle
of Britain Prints International Ltd.=20
      There is a small pamphlet on=20 Molesworth that I picked up last year.  
The Molesworth = pamphlet was=20 released immediately prior to the 2000 Reunion at
RAF Molesworth = and is=20 part of a series on WWII American and British
airfields.  I = have only=20 seen this publication available in England, but it
does provide an = extensive history of each airfield together with appropriate =
photographs=20 and maps.  Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus = series=20
and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. =  The=20 author is
John N. Smith and the email address is=20 GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com.

Best Wishes,=20        

John A. Jenkins =

6910 Old Redmond = Road
Redmond,=20 WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) = 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F44A.B5A328A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 11:43:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 06:43:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: --part1_d9.15e65ee0.2859ef63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordy, My friend to the North thank you for the additional information. The Internet is an amazing thing. John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_d9.15e65ee0.2859ef63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordy,
      My friend to the North thank you for the additional information.  The
Internet is an amazing thing.

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_d9.15e65ee0.2859ef63_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 12:02:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <001801c0f4c1$979713e0$5ce17ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F4A0.05AF67A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on = Molesworth. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Mark,=20 If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would = recommend=20 Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air = Force=20 bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and = how they=20 appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are = Battle=20 of Britain Prints International Ltd.=20 There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last = year. =20 The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 = Reunion at=20 RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British=20 airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, = but it=20 does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with = appropriate=20 photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus = series=20 and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The = author is=20 John N. Smith and the email address is = GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com.=20 Best Wishes, =20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F4A0.05AF67A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding = something on=20 Molesworth. 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 = 11:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books = on the=20 8th Air Force

Mark,
      If = you are=20 interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend =
Airfields=20 of the Eighth Then and Now.  This book portrays all = 8th Air=20 Force
bases in England as they were during WWII (including = Molesworth) and=20 how they
appear today.  The author is Roger A. Freeman and = the=20 publishers are Battle
of Britain Prints International Ltd.=20
      There is a small pamphlet on=20 Molesworth that I picked up last year.  
The Molesworth = pamphlet was=20 released immediately prior to the 2000 Reunion at
RAF Molesworth = and is=20 part of a series on WWII American and British
airfields.  I = have only=20 seen this publication available in England, but it
does provide an = extensive history of each airfield together with appropriate =
photographs=20 and maps.  Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus = series=20
and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. =  The=20 author is
John N. Smith and the email address is=20 GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com.

Best Wishes,=20        

John A. Jenkins =

6910 Old Redmond = Road
Redmond,=20 WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) = 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F4A0.05AF67A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 14:34:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:34:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfields of the 8th - Then and Now Message-ID: Airfields of the Eighth - Then and Now, does not accurately portray how the airfields appear TODAY. The book was first released in 1979 and is woefully out of date in terms of what is left at the old stations. I know, in the last three years I've been to 42 of the old heavy bomber and fighter stations of the 8th AF from the 20th FG at King's Cliffe, to the 398th BG(H) at Nuthamstead to the 100th BG(H) and 390th BGs at Thorpe Abbotts and Parnham (Framlingham). The book is an EXCELLENT resource for the history of each base, though. If you want to visit any of the old bases, let me know and I will tell you who to contact (who can get you onto the base), what's left, and even send a few scanned pics. If you do visit the old bases, please, please, please get permission from the land owner before stomping through his "patch," as they say. The English frown on people who trespass moreso than us Americans. Many of the bases today either have a restored control tower or the towers are undergoing reconstruction. And there are more remains of the bases than what the book points out, from communal sites to technical sites to peri tracks and hardstand. You just have to know where to look. Kevin >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 > >Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on Molesworth. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > Mark, > If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend > Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air >Force > bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and how >they > appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are >Battle > of Britain Prints International Ltd. > There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last >year. > The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 >Reunion at > RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British > airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, but >it > does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with >appropriate > photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus >series > and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The author >is > John N. Smith and the email address is GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 15:13:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:13:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <007501c0f4dc$36106340$9609f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F4A1.893C0D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anytime, neighbor. There is more stuff on here than we could ever = imagine. I have a question for all : I received a question for help, and part of it involved some writing on = the back of a photo. Can anyone give some meaning to the following : . . . . . on one of the photos I have is G916-153N- B&G SQDN . . . . . . = The search involves a crewmember on a B24. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 3:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Gordy,=20 My friend to the North thank you for the additional information. = The=20 Internet is an amazing thing.=20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F4A1.893C0D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anytime, neighbor. There is more stuff on here than = we could=20 ever imagine.
 
I have a question for all :
I received a question = for help,=20 and part of it involved some writing on the back of a photo. Can anyone = give=20 some meaning to the following :
 
. . . . . on one of the photos I have is G916-153N- B&G SQDN . = . . . .=20 .
 
The search involves a crewmember on a = B24.
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 = 3:43=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books = on the=20 8th Air Force

Gordy,
      My = friend to=20 the North thank you for the additional information.  The =
Internet is=20 an amazing thing.

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052 =   USA=20

Phone (425) 885-0595 ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0F4A1.893C0D20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 16:35:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:35:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: Abigail: There are a couple of books I highly recommend about the 8th. And probably the best I have ever read is Bert Stile's "Serenade to the Big Bird." Stiles was a copilot with the 91st BG(H) at Bassingbourn, wrote this book during the war, and is probably the best writer I have ever read. You feel as if you are in the cockpit with him. He completed his tour with the 91st and transitioned into fighters and was shot down and killed during the war. It is a very moving book and I it is still available from the 8th AFHS PX. It is a timeless classic. Item B27 for $19.95 Mark Copeland 8th AFHS PX P.O. Box 240837 Apple Valley, MN 55124 Harry Crosby's "Wing and a Prayer" is excellent if you what to know how the 8th AF got all those planes in the air and heading in the right direction. Crosby was a navigator with the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, near Diss, in Norfolk. He has a unique writing style and was with the 100th almost from start to finish of the war. Any book by Roger Freeman is exceptional. I have them all. One of his books that was never very popular is Experiences of War: The American Airman in Europe. I got a good price on mine from the 8th AFHS PX and one Saturday morning I picked it up. It was magnificent! It is about life for the crews in England during the war and how the "friendly invasion" affected the English people. Freeman's Airfield of the Eighth - Then and Now is also for sale by the 8th AFHS PX for $49.95. I item B3. Under the Bombs by Earl R. Beck is an exceptional account of what life was like in Germany as a result of the bombing campaign. Beck did extensive research in Germany pouring through archives to complete this book. It is truly one of the great books written on this topic. Flying Forts by Martin Caiden is also a great book and was one of the first in my collect in 1968. It's out of print, but you might find one on e-bay. And I encourage you to buy at least one Bomb Group Unit History like Harry Goebreht's on the 303rd. You get to know the men who were there and start to fully appreciate the losses suffered. The Ragged Irregulars of Bassingbourn by Marion C. Havelaar is also a good unit history and is readily avaiable. Hope this helps, Kevin >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 > >Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on Molesworth. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > Mark, > If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend > Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air >Force > bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and how >they > appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are >Battle > of Britain Prints International Ltd. > There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last >year. > The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 >Reunion at > RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British > airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, but >it > does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with >appropriate > photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus >series > and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The author >is > John N. Smith and the email address is GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 20:05:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: A friend of mine sent this to me and I wanted to share it with my friends = of the 303rd Forum in case you haven't seen it: This being Flag Day makes = it fitting: What is a Veteran? > > > > > > Some veterans bear visible signs of their service: a missing limb, a > > > jagged scar, a certain look in the eye. Others may carry the = evidence > > > inside them: a pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel in = the > > > leg - or perhaps another sort of inner steel: > > > the soul's ally forged in the refinery of adversity. Except in=20 >parades, > > > however, the men and women who have kept America safe wear no badge = or > > > emblem. You can't tell a vet just by looking. > > > What is a vet? > > > He is the cop on the beat who spent six months in Saudi Arabia=20 >sweating > > > two gallons a day making sure the armored personnel carriers = didn't=20 >run > > > out of fuel. > > > He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose > > > overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the=20 >cosmic > > > scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel. > > > She - or he - is the nurse who fought against futility and went = to=20 >sleep > > > sobbing every night for two solid years in Da Nang. > > > > > > He is the POW who went away one person and came back another - or=20 >didn't > > > come back AT ALL. > > > He is the Quantico drill instructor who has never seen combat - = but=20 >has > > > saved countless lives by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and = gang > > > members into Marines, and teaching them to watch each other's backs. > > > He is the parade - riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons and=20 >medals > > > with a prosthetic hand. > > > He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and medals = pass=20 >him > > > by. > > > He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The Unknowns, whose > > > presence at the Arlington National Cemetery must forever preserve = the > > > memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor dies unrecognized = with=20 >them > > > on the battlefield or in the ocean's sunless deep. > > > He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket - palsied = now=20 >and > > > aggravatingly slow - who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who > > > wishes all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him = when=20 >the > > > nightmares come. > > > > > > He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being - a person = who > > > offered some of his life's most vital years in the service of his > > > country, and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would not have = to > > > sacrifice theirs. > > > > > > He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and = he=20 >is > > > nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the=20 >finest, > > > greatest nation ever known. > > > So remember, each time you see someone who has served our country,=20= >just > > > lean over and say Thank You. That's all most people need, and in = most > > > cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been = awarded=20 >or > > > were awarded. Two little words that mean a lot, "THANK YOU". > > > "It is the soldier, not the reporter, > > > Who has given us freedom of the press. > > > It is the soldier, not the poet, > > > Who has given us freedom of speech. > > > It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, > > > Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. > > > It is the soldier, > > > Who salutes the flag, > > > Who serves beneath the flag, > > > And whose coffin is draped by the flag, > > > Who allows the protester to burn the flag." > > > > > > Father Denis Edward O'Brien, USMC Thank you, Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 17:55:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Georgia McSorley) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:55:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Medals Message-ID: Arni has lost his two Distinguished Flying Cross medals. We live out of the country, but I am going up to Omaha, Nebraska next week on a visit, and wonder if anyone knows if there is anyway I can replace these. Thanks in advance, Georgia. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 14 21:34:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:34:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: Message-ID: <3B291FE2.7F4A27A2@attglobal.net> Duke ... My Flag is hung today. And, I salute it when I hang it and again when I take it down. If the neighbors see that and somehow do not like it, so what! Cheers! Bill Heller Duke Drewry wrote: > A friend of mine sent this to me and I wanted to share it with my friends of the 303rd Forum in case you haven't seen it: This being Flag Day makes it fitting: > > What is a Veteran? > > > > > > > > Some veterans bear visible signs of their service: a missing limb, a > > > > jagged scar, a certain look in the eye. Others may carry the evidence > > > > inside them: a pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel in the > > > > leg - or perhaps another sort of inner steel: > > > > the soul's ally forged in the refinery of adversity. Except in > >parades, > > > > however, the men and women who have kept America safe wear no badge or > > > > emblem. You can't tell a vet just by looking. > > > > What is a vet? > > > > He is the cop on the beat who spent six months in Saudi Arabia > >sweating > > > > two gallons a day making sure the armored personnel carriers didn't > >run > > > > out of fuel. > > > > He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose > > > > overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the > >cosmic > > > > scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel. > > > > She - or he - is the nurse who fought against futility and went to > >sleep > > > > sobbing every night for two solid years in Da Nang. > > > > > > > > He is the POW who went away one person and came back another - or > >didn't > > > > come back AT ALL. > > > > He is the Quantico drill instructor who has never seen combat - but > >has > > > > saved countless lives by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang > > > > members into Marines, and teaching them to watch each other's backs. > > > > He is the parade - riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons and > >medals > > > > with a prosthetic hand. > > > > He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and medals pass > >him > > > > by. > > > > He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The Unknowns, whose > > > > presence at the Arlington National Cemetery must forever preserve the > > > > memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor dies unrecognized with > >them > > > > on the battlefield or in the ocean's sunless deep. > > > > He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket - palsied now > >and > > > > aggravatingly slow - who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who > > > > wishes all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him when > >the > > > > nightmares come. > > > > > > > > He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being - a person who > > > > offered some of his life's most vital years in the service of his > > > > country, and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would not have to > > > > sacrifice theirs. > > > > > > > > He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and he > >is > > > > nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the > >finest, > > > > greatest nation ever known. > > > > So remember, each time you see someone who has served our country, > >just > > > > lean over and say Thank You. That's all most people need, and in most > > > > cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded > >or > > > > were awarded. Two little words that mean a lot, "THANK YOU". > > > > "It is the soldier, not the reporter, > > > > Who has given us freedom of the press. > > > > It is the soldier, not the poet, > > > > Who has given us freedom of speech. > > > > It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, > > > > Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. > > > > It is the soldier, > > > > Who salutes the flag, > > > > Who serves beneath the flag, > > > > And whose coffin is draped by the flag, > > > > Who allows the protester to burn the flag." > > > > > > > > Father Denis Edward O'Brien, USMC > > Thank you, > Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 00:10:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:10:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <002901c0f527$3ddd0b00$aadf7ad1@markdonn> Kevin, Actually, I am the Mark of Abigail and Mark. Thank you for that very detailed reply. I think I will be spending the rest of the summer reading and trying to understand what Uncle Jim's life in the 303rd was like. He was very soft spoken and humble about his career. Unfortunately I did not start interviewing him until the last year of his life and there were things he had forgotten. However, he was in touch with some of his fellow gunners who have been quite helpful in filling things in. The best story has been the buzzing of Yankee stadium. He remembered looking out and seeing the pitcher standing there with both hands on his hips looking up at them. The tail gunner remembered looking up at the flag on the flagpole as it went by. For those familiar with the story, they know that Mayor LaGuardia went ballistic over the event. However, the pilots got a slap on the wrist and proceeded to Europe. The most dramatic event has been the description of the Oscherlebein raid and the return to Molesworth. His was the only plan in his squadron to survive. The plan was badly shot up and was losing altitude and they had to throw everything possible overboard to make it back. His flight suit was totally shredded I assume by by pieces of flak and possibly by fire from the fighters that had come into the plan. In the end he completed his 30 missions without ever being injured. Again, thank you and all the others who responded to my request. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > Abigail: There are a couple of books I highly recommend about the 8th. And > probably the best I have ever read is Bert Stile's "Serenade to the Big > Bird." Stiles was a copilot with the 91st BG(H) at Bassingbourn, wrote this > book during the war, and is probably the best writer I have ever read. You > feel as if you are in the cockpit with him. He completed his tour with the > 91st and transitioned into fighters and was shot down and killed during the > war. It is a very moving book and I it is still available from the 8th AFHS > PX. It is a timeless classic. Item B27 for $19.95 > Mark Copeland > 8th AFHS PX > P.O. Box 240837 > Apple Valley, MN 55124 > > Harry Crosby's "Wing and a Prayer" is excellent if you what to know how the > 8th AF got all those planes in the air and heading in the right direction. > Crosby was a navigator with the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, near Diss, in > Norfolk. He has a unique writing style and was with the 100th almost from > start to finish of the war. > > Any book by Roger Freeman is exceptional. I have them all. One of his > books that was never very popular is Experiences of War: The American Airman > in Europe. I got a good price on mine from the 8th AFHS PX and one Saturday > morning I picked it up. It was magnificent! It is about life for the crews > in England during the war and how the "friendly invasion" affected the > English people. > > Freeman's Airfield of the Eighth - Then and Now is also for sale by the 8th > AFHS PX for $49.95. I item B3. > > Under the Bombs by Earl R. Beck is an exceptional account of what life was > like in Germany as a result of the bombing campaign. Beck did extensive > research in Germany pouring through archives to complete this book. It is > truly one of the great books written on this topic. > > Flying Forts by Martin Caiden is also a great book and was one of the first > in my collect in 1968. It's out of print, but you might find one on e-bay. > > And I encourage you to buy at least one Bomb Group Unit History like Harry > Goebreht's on the 303rd. You get to know the men who were there and start > to fully appreciate the losses suffered. The Ragged Irregulars of > Bassingbourn by Marion C. Havelaar is also a good unit history and is > readily avaiable. > > Hope this helps, > Kevin > > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 > > > >Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on Molesworth. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > > > > Mark, > > If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would recommend > > Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th Air > >Force > > bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and how > >they > > appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are > >Battle > > of Britain Prints International Ltd. > > There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last > >year. > > The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 > >Reunion at > > RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British > > airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, but > >it > > does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with > >appropriate > > photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus > >series > > and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The author > >is > > John N. Smith and the email address is GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 01:01:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:01:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: <90.15d1b60f.285aaa52@aol.com> I dont know who I am talking to - Kevin, Abigail, Mark, or Jenkins, - anyway the story of buzzing Yankee Stadium reminds me of after the war when we were taking a plane load of the ground men over Germany to show them what they had been supporting - we were to be at 500feet but we seldom got up that high - the fellow below me had his prop wash stirring the water - we went over Paris at 200 feet right by the base of the Effile tower - I dont remember seeing any people but I expect they was us!!! Clyde Henning. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 01:40:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:40:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Medals References: Message-ID: <000701c0f533$c0b68c20$543f22d1@billowen> Georgia, try writing the National Archives and Records Administration. Address the letter to: National Personnel Records Center Air Force Reference Branch (NRPMF) 9700 Page Avenue St. Louis, MO. 63132-5100 The web site is: www.nara.gov/regional/mprawr.html Good luck, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Georgia McSorley" To: "303rd" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:55 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Medals > Arni has lost his two Distinguished Flying Cross medals. We live out of the > country, but I am going up to Omaha, Nebraska next week on a visit, and > wonder if anyone knows if there is anyway I can replace these. Thanks in > advance, Georgia. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 04:00:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:00:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth tape ... last call. Message-ID: <12.e31c3ab.285ad440@gateway.net> Since Lloyd Grant is "temporarily on leave" from the 303rd Talk Site, until further notice, he has asked me to pass on the following message: Anyone who has not seen the Molesworth tape, who is not on the active list, please let Lloyd know. It is on the final rounds now. Last call for the Molesworth tape list. If you haven't seen it and are interested, please E-mail him at: palidin@worldnet.att.net Thank you, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 04:53:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:53:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Medals References: Message-ID: <000201c0f554$85c03c80$5909f4cc@e0y0k4> This website will help you replace medals : http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprawr.html This part of the defenselink with help you chase down the records you may need to prove you are eligible for the medals : http://www.defenselink.mil/faq/pis/PC03MLTR.html This site is where you can apply to get your records, in order to establish if medals have been given, or should have been : http://www.nara.gov/regional/stlouis.html Between the three sites, you should be able to get all the help and info you might need. For instance, if you already have the records, and the certificates establishing eligibility, you may have to go to only the first site. If you need more, you may need to use the first AND second site, etc. Gordy. ****************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Georgia McSorley" To: "303rd" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Service Medals > Arni has lost his two Distinguished Flying Cross medals. We live out of the > country, but I am going up to Omaha, Nebraska next week on a visit, and > wonder if anyone knows if there is anyway I can replace these. Thanks in > advance, Georgia. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 05:38:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:38:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airfields of the 8th - Then and Now Message-ID: --part1_e1.161cd0c2.285aeb3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Kevin Pearson has said concerning the book, Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now, is technically correct. The 'now' photographs date from the late 1970s. Of course, how much significant change could occur in rural landscape in 20 or 30 years? I can personally attest that the conditions portrayed in Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now of the old USAAF bases at Molesworth, Kimbolton, Steeple Morden, and Bassingbourn are essentially the same that I observed in the spring of 2000. I cannot vouch for the remaining airfields. Unless you are planning a trip to England in the near future this book may have to do. To view all of the old air bases would be quite an undertaking. Also, I am in no way associated with the author, publisher, or printer of Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_e1.161cd0c2.285aeb3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      What Kevin Pearson has said concerning the book, Airfields of the
Eighth Then and Now, is technically correct.  The 'now' photographs date from
the late 1970s.  Of course, how much significant change could occur in rural
landscape in 20 or 30 years?  I can personally attest that the conditions
portrayed in Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now of the old USAAF bases at
Molesworth, Kimbolton, Steeple Morden, and Bassingbourn are essentially the
same that I observed in the spring of 2000.  I cannot vouch for the remaining
airfields.  Unless you are planning a trip to England in the near future this
book may have to do. To view all of the old air bases would be quite an
undertaking.
      Also, I am in no way associated with the author, publisher, or printer
of Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now.

Best Wishes,    

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_e1.161cd0c2.285aeb3b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 06:35:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:35:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: <95.c067b47.285af8b6@cs.com> --part1_95.c067b47.285af8b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you are wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I believe this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have seen in many photographs and movies. I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it meant was an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the thumb of the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the veterans of that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you accomplished. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_95.c067b47.285af8b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,
      Good for you!  Just be certain that when you salute the flag you are
wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'.  I believe
this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have seen in
many photographs and movies.
      I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it meant was
an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the thumb of
the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII.  You and the veterans of
that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you accomplished.

Best Wishes,   

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_95.c067b47.285af8b6_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 08:52:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:52:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <95.c067b47.285af8b6@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B29BED1.CF750928@attglobal.net> --------------B27D49131BBC9C1185C7648A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ... 20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! It is depressing. But, thanks. Cheers! Bill Heller JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill, > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you > are > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I > believe > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have > seen in > many photographs and movies. > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > meant was > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > thumb of > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > veterans of > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > accomplished. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------B27D49131BBC9C1185C7648A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ...

20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de Julio  .... It is an  omen of things to come. Southern  California will go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! It is depressing.

But, thanks.

Cheers!

Bill Heller

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill,
      Good for you!  Just be certain that when you salute the flag you are
wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'.  I believe
this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have seen in
many photographs and movies.
      I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it meant was
an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the thumb of
the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII.  You and the veterans of
that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you accomplished.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------B27D49131BBC9C1185C7648A-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 14:20:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:20:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <95.c067b47.285af8b6@cs.com> <3B29BED1.CF750928@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002201c0f59d$e7680b40$213f22d1@billowen> Amen to that, Bill Heller. Texas fought and won it's independence from Mexico at The Alamo and San Jacinto. Now we are giving it back to them day by day, a little bit at a time. The politicos apparently see nothing wrong with it and do everything possible to help it along. I know it's not politically correct to say such things, but that's the way it is. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > John Jenkins ... > > 20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in > half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the > Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de > Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will > go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! > It is depressing. > > But, thanks. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > Bill, > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you > > are > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I > > believe > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have > > seen in > > many photographs and movies. > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > meant was > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > thumb of > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > veterans of > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > accomplished. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 16:12:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:12:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth tape ... last call. Message-ID: --part1_bc.15fbaca9.285b7fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please add my name to the circulation list. Robert A. Finley 9123 Bassett Lane New Port Richey, FL 34655-1835 yelnifar@aol.com --part1_bc.15fbaca9.285b7fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please add my name to the circulation list.
                                         Robert A. Finley
                                         9123 Bassett Lane
                                         New Port Richey, FL 34655-1835
                                         yelnifar@aol.com --part1_bc.15fbaca9.285b7fd1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 17:25:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:25:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <95.c067b47.285af8b6@cs.com> <3B29BED1.CF750928@attglobal.net> <002201c0f59d$e7680b40$213f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <3B2A3703.3536353B@attglobal.net> Bill Owen ... Forget political correctness, Bill. PC compromises candor. It is anathema to our way of life ... but, we have it because we have so man y losers in our midst. I am tired to tears at times when we talk down the patriotism with which we ought to live in these United States. For me I will never stop fighting this penchant to "give oor contry away" and if we soon do not do something, none of our politicians will have to go to the Mid East to bolster a fragile peace ... for they can stay right here and see our once great nation crumble and die, MERELY BECAUSE WE WILL NOT SECURE OUR BORDERS! Thnks. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Owen wrote: > Amen to that, Bill Heller. Texas fought and won it's independence from > Mexico at The Alamo and San Jacinto. Now we are giving it back to them day > by day, a little bit at a time. The politicos apparently see nothing wrong > with it and do everything possible to help it along. I know it's not > politically correct to say such things, but that's the way it is. Bill Owen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:52 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > > > John Jenkins ... > > > > 20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in > > half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the > > Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de > > Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will > > go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! > > It is depressing. > > > > But, thanks. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Bill Heller > > > > JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > > > Bill, > > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you > > > are > > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I > > > believe > > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have > > > seen in > > > many photographs and movies. > > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > > meant was > > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > > thumb of > > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > > veterans of > > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > > accomplished. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 19:41:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:41:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force Message-ID: Mark, sorry for the name mix up! I researched one mission of the 91st BG(H) - the 16 Aug. 44 mission to Halle, Germany, to bomb the Seibel Aircraft Works. I even went to Germany twice to recover the remains of the six B-17s from the 324th BS that were lost to fighters of IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 and 301 JG 3. I even interviewed all those 91ster flying that day and even found three of the Luftwaffe pilots that flew against the 324th on that mission. If I can help you at all in your research, please don't hesitate to ask. I have fought most of the battles finding info on planes, missions and men. Kevin >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:10:44 -0400 > >Kevin, > >Actually, I am the Mark of Abigail and Mark. > >Thank you for that very detailed reply. I think I will be spending the >rest >of the summer reading and trying to understand what Uncle Jim's life in >the >303rd was like. He was very soft spoken and humble about his career. >Unfortunately I did not start interviewing him until the last year of his >life and there were things he had forgotten. However, he was in touch >with >some of his fellow gunners who have been quite helpful in filling things >in. >The best story has been the buzzing of Yankee stadium. He remembered >looking out and seeing the pitcher standing there with both hands on his >hips looking up at them. The tail gunner remembered looking up at the flag >on the flagpole as it went by. For those familiar with the story, they >know >that Mayor LaGuardia went ballistic over the event. However, the pilots >got >a slap on the wrist and proceeded to Europe. The most dramatic event has >been the description of the Oscherlebein raid and the return to Molesworth. >His was the only plan in his squadron to survive. The plan was badly shot >up and was losing altitude and they had to throw everything possible >overboard to make it back. His flight suit was totally shredded I assume >by >by pieces of flak and possibly by fire from the fighters that had come into >the plan. In the end he completed his 30 missions without ever being >injured. > >Again, thank you and all the others who responded to my request. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:35 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > > Abigail: There are a couple of books I highly recommend about the 8th. >And > > probably the best I have ever read is Bert Stile's "Serenade to the Big > > Bird." Stiles was a copilot with the 91st BG(H) at Bassingbourn, wrote >this > > book during the war, and is probably the best writer I have ever read. >You > > feel as if you are in the cockpit with him. He completed his tour with >the > > 91st and transitioned into fighters and was shot down and killed during >the > > war. It is a very moving book and I it is still available from the 8th >AFHS > > PX. It is a timeless classic. Item B27 for $19.95 > > Mark Copeland > > 8th AFHS PX > > P.O. Box 240837 > > Apple Valley, MN 55124 > > > > Harry Crosby's "Wing and a Prayer" is excellent if you what to know how >the > > 8th AF got all those planes in the air and heading in the right >direction. > > Crosby was a navigator with the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, near >Diss, >in > > Norfolk. He has a unique writing style and was with the 100th almost >from > > start to finish of the war. > > > > Any book by Roger Freeman is exceptional. I have them all. One of his > > books that was never very popular is Experiences of War: The American >Airman > > in Europe. I got a good price on mine from the 8th AFHS PX and one >Saturday > > morning I picked it up. It was magnificent! It is about life for the >crews > > in England during the war and how the "friendly invasion" affected the > > English people. > > > > Freeman's Airfield of the Eighth - Then and Now is also for sale by the >8th > > AFHS PX for $49.95. I item B3. > > > > Under the Bombs by Earl R. Beck is an exceptional account of what life >was > > like in Germany as a result of the bombing campaign. Beck did extensive > > research in Germany pouring through archives to complete this book. It >is > > truly one of the great books written on this topic. > > > > Flying Forts by Martin Caiden is also a great book and was one of the >first > > in my collect in 1968. It's out of print, but you might find one on >e-bay. > > > > And I encourage you to buy at least one Bomb Group Unit History like >Harry > > Goebreht's on the 303rd. You get to know the men who were there and >start > > to fully appreciate the losses suffered. The Ragged Irregulars of > > Bassingbourn by Marion C. Havelaar is also a good unit history and is > > readily avaiable. > > > > Hope this helps, > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 > > > > > >Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on >Molesworth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would >recommend > > > Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th >Air > > >Force > > > bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and >how > > >they > > > appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are > > >Battle > > > of Britain Prints International Ltd. > > > There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last > > >year. > > > The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 > > >Reunion at > > > RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British > > > airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, >but > > >it > > > does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with > > >appropriate > > > photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus > > >series > > > and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The >author > > >is > > > John N. Smith and the email address is >GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 19:50:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:50:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: John, I am offended by your comments about the Mexican people, but not pissed off. The Mexicans are great people. In the last year I have been in Mexico 12 times. I know there are some bad apples in the lot that give them all a bad names, but we have our own too - just look at our jails. The Mexicans are a warm and wonderful people. Most Americans fear them because they don't understand the language or their culture. You talk about Californina, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. falling first. WE FRIGGIN STOLE THAT TERRITORY FROM THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. School teachers call that "Spanish Exploration." But we stole it from them the same way we stole land from the indians. And let me tell you, buster, there were many men flying and fighting in Europe that had mejican decendants. And if you look at the unemployment in the US, who else can we get to do most jobs most Americans won't do, like flipping burgers and maids in motels. I'm not advocating be keep them repressed, only that they will take jobs most of us don't want. By the way, where did your ancestors come from, bub? Y tambien, estoy aprendiendo esta idioma porque quiero apprendar por mis juntos y empressa en mejico. Adios y cuidate mucho! Kevin M. Pearson (An Irishman through and through) I don't know why we can't find a way to work with Mexico on the border problem. >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:52:50 -0700 > >John Jenkins ... > >20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in >half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the >Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de >Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will >go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! >It is depressing. > >But, thanks. > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > Bill, > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you > > are > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I > > believe > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have > > seen in > > many photographs and movies. > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > meant was > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > thumb of > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > veterans of > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > accomplished. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 19:55:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:55:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: People in our local paper are calling in an saying you vets have had it so easy because of the GI Bill, etc. Here is a letter I wrote to our editor using something sent to me on the internet, but it makes my point. Yes, we have a lot of boneheads here too, and they aren't even Mexican! I saw in It’s Your Call today that people are bemoaning how easy Gis have had it. I knew eventually someone would ferret out the dirty secret of the World War II GI’s: they’ve lived the "lifestyles of the rich and famous" all their lives. Now, I know I must bare the truth about that generation and let the country condemn them for their selfishness. During the Depression they had a hilarious time dancing to the tune of "Brother Can You Spare A Dime?" They could choose to dine at any of the country's fabulous soup kitchens, often joined by their parents and siblings...those were the heady days of carefree self-indulgence. Then, with World War II, the cup filled to overflowing. They had the chance to bask on the exotic beaches of Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima and Okinawa; to see the capitols of Europe and travel to such scenic spots as Bastogne, Malmedy, Arnhem, Remagen and Monte Cassino. Of course, one of the most exhilarating adventures was the peaceful stroll from Bataan to the local Japanese hotels, laughingly known as death camps. But the good times really rolled for those lucky enough to be on the beaches of Normandy for the swimming and boating events that pleasant 6th day of June in '44. Unforgettable! Even luckier were those that drew the prized holiday tickets for cruises on sleek, gray ships to fun-filled spots like Midway, Truk, The Solomons and Murmansk. Instead of asking, "what can we do for our country," an indulgent government let them fritter away their youth wandering idly through the lush and lovely jungles of Burma, Pelelui and New Guinea. Yes, it's all true, Dear Complainers, they were pampered, they were spoiled rotten, they never did realize what sacrifice meant. I envy you, Dear Complainers, the harsh lessons you learned smoking dope in the 60’s, listening to hard rock in the 70’s, and becoming the “me generation” in the 80s. That generation is old now, Dear Complainers...and guilty; but they are repentant. Punish them for their failings, Dear Complainers, that they may learn the true meaning of Duty, Honor, and Country. Kevin M. Pearson (and mad as hell!) 2514 W. Woodland St. Joseph, M) 64506 Phone: 816.364.5576 (Residence) 816.232.4461 (Office) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 20:51:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:51:28 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Post War Buzz Message-ID: <122.57d4e2.285bc140@aol.com> --part1_122.57d4e2.285bc140_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to the story by Clyde Hemming on the post war tour. I was on that flight and would like to tell "the rest of the story". Yes the whole Bomb Group did go together on the tour except for one plane "ours" we were late taking off ! Each plane carried men of the ground support activities including executive officer personnel to show them where we had been and some of what we did. We did get in the air but decided not to go with the group. We went in the opposite direction north into Germany and down along the Rhine river "right on the deck". I was the toggelier on this crew, so I had the best view of anyone and it was beautiful. However there were some exciting events. As we were approaching the Remogin bridge head we were so low that I told the navigator I was going to stick my feet out the front escape hatch. "They got wet from prop spray." Needless to say I called the pilot and told him. No answer but he did pull up a tiny bit. Next was the bridge head and two G.I's. were standing with their backs to us. When they heard us they both jumped into the river. The tail gunner said they were shaking fists at us. I'm sure I would have done the same. It is outstanding when flying low to look out the side windows from the Bombadiers seat and see the tops of the poplar trees above us. "Thats low." Ity wasn't too soon after this that we were approaching Stutgart where the river takes a sharp turn to the right. We were up maybe 600 feet at this time and banking to the right. Here was this big (Ach-Ach) mountian on the left side of the plane and we were sliding very close to it. I told the pilot to goose her and dive away, which he had already started to do when I reported. We escaped by the the skin of our noses. That was only the begining, dead ahead, were two tall trees on each side of the river and behind them were a smoke stacks. Again we were down on the river. I called the pilot and told him what was there. Boy did he pull the plane up then. Now we were on our way to Paris. When we got there we took a very wonderful cruise around the Effle Tower several times as well as the Arc de Triumph. I have pictures showing how close we were and low enought to see a chubby sargent at the tower chewing a cigar and smiling. If I remember I will bring the pictures to Baltimore. We were just turning to leave Paris when I looked out my side window and saw a P51 cuddling up to us inside our wing and tail, really tucked in. He held up a pad for us to see, and wrote down our plane number, smiled and peeled off. Needless to say the officers lost some of their pay that month. If you think about this, it was worth more than a months pay to have taken that trip and I'm sure some people would have paid thousands for the same ride. I was really touched when on the Rhine we went past the prisoner of war camps we could see their faces and none were smiling. Some of the prisoners were trying to move away from the river. I'm sure the gaurds weren't too happy with us. Forgive us guys. Bob Morris 360th Sqd. --part1_122.57d4e2.285bc140_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to the story by Clyde Hemming on the post war tour.
I was on that flight and would like to tell "the rest of the story".

Yes the whole Bomb Group did go together on the tour except for one plane
"ours" we were late taking off ! Each plane carried men of the ground support
activities including executive officer personnel to show them where we had
been and some of what we did.
We did get in the air but decided not to go with the group. We went in the
opposite direction north into Germany and down along the Rhine river "right
on the deck". I was the toggelier on this crew, so I had the best view of
anyone and it was beautiful. However there were some exciting events. As we
were approaching the Remogin bridge head we were so low that I told the
navigator I was going to stick my feet out the front escape hatch. "They got
wet from prop spray."  Needless to say I called the pilot and told him. No
answer but he did pull up a tiny bit. Next was the bridge head and two G.I's.
were standing with their backs to us. When they heard us they both jumped
into the river. The tail gunner said they were shaking fists at us. I'm sure
I would have done the same. It is outstanding when flying low to look out the
side windows from the Bombadiers seat and see the tops of the poplar trees
above us.   "Thats low."

Ity wasn't too soon after this that we were approaching Stutgart where the
river takes a sharp turn to the right. We were up maybe 600 feet at this time
and banking to the right. Here was this big  (Ach-Ach) mountian on the left
side of the plane and we were sliding very close to it. I told the pilot to
goose her and dive away, which he had already started to do when I reported.
We escaped by the the skin of our noses. That was only the begining, dead
ahead, were two tall trees on each side of the river and behind them were a
smoke stacks. Again we were down on the river. I called the pilot and told
him what was there. Boy did he pull the plane up then.

Now we were on our way to Paris. When we got there we took a very wonderful
cruise around the Effle Tower several times as well as the Arc de Triumph. I
have pictures showing how close we were and low enought to see a chubby
sargent at the tower chewing a cigar and smiling.  If I remember I will bring
the pictures to Baltimore. We were just turning to leave Paris when I looked
out my side window and saw a P51 cuddling up to us inside our wing and tail,
really tucked in. He held up a pad for us to see, and wrote down our plane
number, smiled and peeled off.
Needless to say the officers lost some of their pay that month.

If you think about this, it was worth more than a months pay to have taken
that trip and I'm sure some people would have paid thousands for the same
ride. I was really touched when on the Rhine we went past the prisoner of war
camps we could see their faces and none were smiling. Some of the prisoners
were trying to move away from the river. I'm sure the gaurds weren't too
happy with us. Forgive us guys.
Bob Morris 360th Sqd. --part1_122.57d4e2.285bc140_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 20:54:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] DFC Medals Message-ID: <20010615195410.11617.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Georgia, I think I can get these on base and will look as soon as I can. If you give me your mailing address I'll be honored to send them to you. Chuck Golden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 21:50:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:50:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: Message-ID: <3B2A7520.4C9264ED@attglobal.net> Kevin ... I have no objection to ANYONE who comes here LEGALLY. As to whether or not we stole anything from anybody ... we stole it fair and square ... And, it is not a "problem" we shoud work with to solve our seive-like borders. It is our own government. A nation which cannot secure its borders is not long for the community of nations. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > John, I am offended by your comments about the Mexican people, but not > pissed off. The Mexicans are great people. In the last year I have been in > Mexico 12 times. I know there are some bad apples in the lot that give them > all a bad names, but we have our own too - just look at our jails. The > Mexicans are a warm and wonderful people. Most Americans fear them because > they don't understand the language or their culture. > > You talk about Californina, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. falling first. WE > FRIGGIN STOLE THAT TERRITORY FROM THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. School teachers > call that "Spanish Exploration." But we stole it from them the same way we > stole land from the indians. > > And let me tell you, buster, there were many men flying and fighting in > Europe that had mejican decendants. > > And if you look at the unemployment in the US, who else can we get to do > most jobs most Americans won't do, like flipping burgers and maids in > motels. I'm not advocating be keep them repressed, only that they will take > jobs most of us don't want. By the way, where did your ancestors come from, > bub? > > Y tambien, estoy aprendiendo esta idioma porque quiero apprendar por mis > juntos y empressa en mejico. > > Adios y cuidate mucho! > Kevin M. Pearson > (An Irishman through and through) > > I don't know why we can't find a way to work with Mexico on the border > problem. > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:52:50 -0700 > > > >John Jenkins ... > > > >20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in > >half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the > >Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de > >Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will > >go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake up! > >It is depressing. > > > >But, thanks. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > > > Bill, > > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag you > > > are > > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. I > > > believe > > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we have > > > seen in > > > many photographs and movies. > > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > > meant was > > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > > thumb of > > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > > veterans of > > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > > accomplished. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 15 23:49:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:49:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force References: Message-ID: <002b01c0f5ed$62728320$35e17ad1@markdonn> Kevin, Thanks for the offer. My ultimate goal is to leave a family record of Uncle Jim's time in the 303rd and the missions he flew on. I have some narrative from interviewing him before he died. He would insist that he just did his job as a waist gunner. He received only the medals awarded for completing his missions. However, I also noticed that he always wore a small pin indicating he had received the DFC. I have no doubt that his experiences in the 8th Air force were of great importance to him. At this point I want to intellectually understand what those missions were all about and place some context around his experiences. I am thinking that I might focus on the Jan 11 '44 mission to Oschersleben to try to bring to life what he experienced. I'm planning on buying the books that have been recommended to me. However, I have no doubt that I will be asking questions of you and anyone else that wants to answer me. Let's stay in touch. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > Mark, sorry for the name mix up! I researched one mission of the 91st BG(H) > - the 16 Aug. 44 mission to Halle, Germany, to bomb the Seibel Aircraft > Works. I even went to Germany twice to recover the remains of the six B-17s > from the 324th BS that were lost to fighters of IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 and 301 JG > 3. I even interviewed all those 91ster flying that day and even found three > of the Luftwaffe pilots that flew against the 324th on that mission. If I > can help you at all in your research, please don't hesitate to ask. I have > fought most of the battles finding info on planes, missions and men. > Kevin > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:10:44 -0400 > > > >Kevin, > > > >Actually, I am the Mark of Abigail and Mark. > > > >Thank you for that very detailed reply. I think I will be spending the > >rest > >of the summer reading and trying to understand what Uncle Jim's life in > >the > >303rd was like. He was very soft spoken and humble about his career. > >Unfortunately I did not start interviewing him until the last year of his > >life and there were things he had forgotten. However, he was in touch > >with > >some of his fellow gunners who have been quite helpful in filling things > >in. > >The best story has been the buzzing of Yankee stadium. He remembered > >looking out and seeing the pitcher standing there with both hands on his > >hips looking up at them. The tail gunner remembered looking up at the flag > >on the flagpole as it went by. For those familiar with the story, they > >know > >that Mayor LaGuardia went ballistic over the event. However, the pilots > >got > >a slap on the wrist and proceeded to Europe. The most dramatic event has > >been the description of the Oscherlebein raid and the return to Molesworth. > >His was the only plan in his squadron to survive. The plan was badly shot > >up and was losing altitude and they had to throw everything possible > >overboard to make it back. His flight suit was totally shredded I assume > >by > >by pieces of flak and possibly by fire from the fighters that had come into > >the plan. In the end he completed his 30 missions without ever being > >injured. > > > >Again, thank you and all the others who responded to my request. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:35 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > > > > > Abigail: There are a couple of books I highly recommend about the 8th. > >And > > > probably the best I have ever read is Bert Stile's "Serenade to the Big > > > Bird." Stiles was a copilot with the 91st BG(H) at Bassingbourn, wrote > >this > > > book during the war, and is probably the best writer I have ever read. > >You > > > feel as if you are in the cockpit with him. He completed his tour with > >the > > > 91st and transitioned into fighters and was shot down and killed during > >the > > > war. It is a very moving book and I it is still available from the 8th > >AFHS > > > PX. It is a timeless classic. Item B27 for $19.95 > > > Mark Copeland > > > 8th AFHS PX > > > P.O. Box 240837 > > > Apple Valley, MN 55124 > > > > > > Harry Crosby's "Wing and a Prayer" is excellent if you what to know how > >the > > > 8th AF got all those planes in the air and heading in the right > >direction. > > > Crosby was a navigator with the 100th BG(H) at Thorpe Abbotts, near > >Diss, > >in > > > Norfolk. He has a unique writing style and was with the 100th almost > >from > > > start to finish of the war. > > > > > > Any book by Roger Freeman is exceptional. I have them all. One of his > > > books that was never very popular is Experiences of War: The American > >Airman > > > in Europe. I got a good price on mine from the 8th AFHS PX and one > >Saturday > > > morning I picked it up. It was magnificent! It is about life for the > >crews > > > in England during the war and how the "friendly invasion" affected the > > > English people. > > > > > > Freeman's Airfield of the Eighth - Then and Now is also for sale by the > >8th > > > AFHS PX for $49.95. I item B3. > > > > > > Under the Bombs by Earl R. Beck is an exceptional account of what life > >was > > > like in Germany as a result of the bombing campaign. Beck did extensive > > > research in Germany pouring through archives to complete this book. It > >is > > > truly one of the great books written on this topic. > > > > > > Flying Forts by Martin Caiden is also a great book and was one of the > >first > > > in my collect in 1968. It's out of print, but you might find one on > >e-bay. > > > > > > And I encourage you to buy at least one Bomb Group Unit History like > >Harry > > > Goebreht's on the 303rd. You get to know the men who were there and > >start > > > to fully appreciate the losses suffered. The Ragged Irregulars of > > > Bassingbourn by Marion C. Havelaar is also a good unit history and is > > > readily avaiable. > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400 > > > > > > > >Thanks very much. I've been interested in finding something on > >Molesworth. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:30 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Books on the 8th Air Force > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > If you are interested in 8th Air Force airfields I would > >recommend > > > > Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. This book portrays all 8th > >Air > > > >Force > > > > bases in England as they were during WWII (including Molesworth) and > >how > > > >they > > > > appear today. The author is Roger A. Freeman and the publishers are > > > >Battle > > > > of Britain Prints International Ltd. > > > > There is a small pamphlet on Molesworth that I picked up last > > > >year. > > > > The Molesworth pamphlet was released immediately prior to the 2000 > > > >Reunion at > > > > RAF Molesworth and is part of a series on WWII American and British > > > > airfields. I have only seen this publication available in England, > >but > > > >it > > > > does provide an extensive history of each airfield together with > > > >appropriate > > > > photographs and maps. Molesworth is number 40 in the Airfield Focus > > > >series > > > > and is published by GMS Publications, Peterborough, England. The > >author > > > >is > > > > John N. Smith and the email address is > >GMSAVIATIONBOOKS@compuserve.com. > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 04:26:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:26:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: <16.dfae078.285c2bfe@cs.com> --part1_16.dfae078.285c2bfe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller and all, Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US flags displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing. Also, I share your concerns about the Southwestern US. Dad lives in southern New Mexico and I understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the predominant language. When I left that region almost three decades ago such was not the case. It has been shown that children initially educated in Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of English speaking America. Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not work. The beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or from Florida to Washington and speak the same language. This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The region that is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force from its native inhabitants by Spain. Mexico merely inherited this vast area once the Spanish returned to Europe. Whether the native inhabitants of Mexico could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open to question. Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the Mexicans to vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries. The leaders of Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary compensation for the land. I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the South in his Memoirs to Mexico. "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this region it would have done so." There must be something good about capitalism. Everyone seems to want to get to the capitalistic US for a better life. Mexico must dump its socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of people to the US. We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII. If this were a bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass or two at the target. Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a B17. Best Wishes to all, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_16.dfae078.285c2bfe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller and all,

      Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US flags
displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing.  Also, I share your
concerns about the Southwestern US.  Dad lives in southern New Mexico and I
understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the
predominant language.  When I left that region almost three decades ago such
was not the case.  It has been shown that children initially educated in
Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of English
speaking America.  Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not work.  The
beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or from
Florida to Washington and speak the same language.

      This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation.  The region that
is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New Mexico,
Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force from
its native inhabitants by Spain.  Mexico merely inherited this vast area once
the Spanish returned to Europe.  Whether the native inhabitants of Mexico
could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open to
question.  Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the Mexicans to
vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries.  The leaders of
Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary
compensation for the land.  I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the South in
his Memoirs to Mexico.  "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this region
it would have done so."

      There must be something good about capitalism.  Everyone seems to want
to get to the capitalistic US for a better life.  Mexico must dump its
socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of people to
the US.

      We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII.  If this were a
bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass or two
at the target.  Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a B17.       
      

Best Wishes to all,
   
John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_16.dfae078.285c2bfe_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 08:04:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:04:26 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <16.dfae078.285c2bfe@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B2B04FA.D7EF22F5@attglobal.net> --------------DC957B1C3CB1F7F333283042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ... Appreciated your missive and many ideas. Whenever anyone tells me about this or that country used to own part of this or that area of the US I wonder if they would like us to give it all back to the United Kingdom ... Germany is a case in point of a political entity being COMPLETELY defeated, and now have joined the community of international nations (the Greens notwithstanding). It is sort of like when someone mentioned we do not truly own the Panama Canal (way back when we did) there was one president, forget who .... who said, "We stole it fair and square! It 's ours!" Anent the feeling that we have strayed from tallking about "things" about WW#2 (the one we won) I am reminded of the fact that we could not even be doing this "straying" if we had not won! Cheers! WCH JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller and all, > > Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US > flags > displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing. Also, I share > your > concerns about the Southwestern US. Dad lives in southern New Mexico > and I > understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the > predominant language. When I left that region almost three decades > ago such > was not the case. It has been shown that children initially educated > in > Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of > English > speaking America. Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not > work. The > beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or > from > Florida to Washington and speak the same language. > > This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The > region that > is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New > Mexico, > Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force > from > its native inhabitants by Spain. Mexico merely inherited this vast > area once > the Spanish returned to Europe. Whether the native inhabitants of > Mexico > could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open > to > question. Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the > Mexicans to > vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries. The > leaders of > Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary > compensation for the land. I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the > South in > his Memoirs to Mexico. "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this > region > it would have done so." > > There must be something good about capitalism. Everyone seems > to want > to get to the capitalistic US for a better life. Mexico must dump its > > socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of > people to > the US. > > We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII. If this were > a > bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass > or two > at the target. Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a > B17. > > > Best Wishes to all, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------DC957B1C3CB1F7F333283042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ...

Appreciated your missive and many ideas.  Whenever anyone tells me about this or that country used to own part of this or that area of the US I wonder if they would like us to give it all back to the United Kingdom ...


Germany is a case in point of a political entity being COMPLETELY defeated, and now have joined the community of international nations (the Greens  notwithstanding). It is sort of like when someone mentioned we do not truly own the Panama Canal (way back when we did) there was one president, forget who .... who said, "We stole it fair and square! It 's ours!"

Anent the feeling that we have strayed from tallking about "things" about WW#2 (the one we won) I am reminded of the fact that we could not even be doing this "straying" if we had not won!

Cheers!

WCH

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller and all,

      Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US flags
displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing.  Also, I share your
concerns about the Southwestern US.  Dad lives in southern New Mexico and I
understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the
predominant language.  When I left that region almost three decades ago such
was not the case.  It has been shown that children initially educated in
Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of English
speaking America.  Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not work.  The
beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or from
Florida to Washington and speak the same language.

      This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation.  The region that
is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New Mexico,
Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force from
its native inhabitants by Spain.  Mexico merely inherited this vast area once
the Spanish returned to Europe.  Whether the native inhabitants of Mexico
could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open to
question.  Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the Mexicans to
vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries.  The leaders of
Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary
compensation for the land.  I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the South in
his Memoirs to Mexico.  "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this region
it would have done so."

      There must be something good about capitalism.  Everyone seems to want
to get to the capitalistic US for a better life.  Mexico must dump its
socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of people to
the US.

      We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII.  If this were a
bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass or two
at the target.  Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a B17.
 

Best Wishes to all,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------DC957B1C3CB1F7F333283042-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 19:02:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:02:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: WCH: All you have to do is look at what Europe did with Czechoslavacia at the end of WWII to see what the US SHOULD do with Mexico. Believe it or not gang, we need Mexico and her people if we are going to compete with the EU in the long-term. I would have hoped that the very men who fought for freedom and prosperity of the world would have wished it for all people, just not themselves. I am very saddened by your comments, not for me, but for you. Bill if your family was starving, had no place to live, and was threatened by a corrupt government, that is up until Fox was elected last July, you would try to find something better at any cost and don't tell me you wouldn't. Gary, I'm sorry this has strayed for our original intent, but there are lessons to be learned here, ones I had hoped had been learned in the 1940s. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:50:41 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >I have no objection to ANYONE who comes here LEGALLY. As to whether or not >we >stole anything from anybody ... we stole it fair and square ... And, it is >not >a "problem" we shoud work with to solve our seive-like borders. It is our >own >government. A nation which cannot secure its borders is not long for the >community of nations. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > John, I am offended by your comments about the Mexican people, but not > > pissed off. The Mexicans are great people. In the last year I have >been in > > Mexico 12 times. I know there are some bad apples in the lot that give >them > > all a bad names, but we have our own too - just look at our jails. The > > Mexicans are a warm and wonderful people. Most Americans fear them >because > > they don't understand the language or their culture. > > > > You talk about Californina, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. falling first. WE > > FRIGGIN STOLE THAT TERRITORY FROM THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. School >teachers > > call that "Spanish Exploration." But we stole it from them the same way >we > > stole land from the indians. > > > > And let me tell you, buster, there were many men flying and fighting in > > Europe that had mejican decendants. > > > > And if you look at the unemployment in the US, who else can we get to do > > most jobs most Americans won't do, like flipping burgers and maids in > > motels. I'm not advocating be keep them repressed, only that they will >take > > jobs most of us don't want. By the way, where did your ancestors come >from, > > bub? > > > > Y tambien, estoy aprendiendo esta idioma porque quiero apprendar por mis > > juntos y empressa en mejico. > > > > Adios y cuidate mucho! > > Kevin M. Pearson > > (An Irishman through and through) > > > > I don't know why we can't find a way to work with Mexico on the border > > problem. > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > > >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:52:50 -0700 > > > > > >John Jenkins ... > > > > > >20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in > > >half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the > > >Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de > > >Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will > > >go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake >up! > > >It is depressing. > > > > > >But, thanks. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >Bill Heller > > > > > >JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag >you > > > > are > > > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. >I > > > > believe > > > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we >have > > > > seen in > > > > many photographs and movies. > > > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > > > meant was > > > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > > > thumb of > > > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > > > veterans of > > > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > > > accomplished. > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 19:12:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:12:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: Absolutely amazing. How many of our ancestors originated from non English speaking countries, then blended into the fabric of America and make this nation great. I just wonder if the American Indians said the exact same thing in the mid to late 1800s. This is all I'm going to say on the subject, because it is obvious to me you haven't a clue what you are speaking about. If ignorance was a virtue, you would be wise beyond your years. Gary, please delete me from this ring. I will not condone bigotrey in any form. Good bye fellas! You have shattered every belief I have ever held about you. Kevin >From: JJENKINSR@cs.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:26:54 EDT > >Bill Heller and all, > > Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US >flags >displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing. Also, I share your >concerns about the Southwestern US. Dad lives in southern New Mexico and I >understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the >predominant language. When I left that region almost three decades ago >such >was not the case. It has been shown that children initially educated in >Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of English >speaking America. Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not work. The >beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or from >Florida to Washington and speak the same language. > > This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The region >that >is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New Mexico, >Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force from >its native inhabitants by Spain. Mexico merely inherited this vast area >once >the Spanish returned to Europe. Whether the native inhabitants of Mexico >could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open to >question. Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the Mexicans to >vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries. The leaders >of >Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary >compensation for the land. I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the South >in >his Memoirs to Mexico. "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this >region >it would have done so." > > There must be something good about capitalism. Everyone seems to >want >to get to the capitalistic US for a better life. Mexico must dump its >socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of people >to >the US. > > We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII. If this were a >bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass or >two >at the target. Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a B17. > > >Best Wishes to all, > >John A. Jenkins > >6910 Old Redmond Road >Redmond, WA 98052 USA > >Phone (425) 885-0595 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 19:35:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:35:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: Message-ID: <3B2BA6F6.5DEC2330@attglobal.net> Kevin ... I am very sorry for your "sorrow" for me. Thank you. My concern is not one of the usual social concerns. My concern is purely sound as we view history. A nation which cannot secure its borders soon ceases to be a viable political entity. Make of it what you will. And, thank you again for your comments. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > WCH: All you have to do is look at what Europe did with Czechoslavacia at > the end of WWII to see what the US SHOULD do with Mexico. Believe it or not > gang, we need Mexico and her people if we are going to compete with the EU > in the long-term. I would have hoped that the very men who fought for > freedom and prosperity of the world would have wished it for all people, > just not themselves. I am very saddened by your comments, not for me, but > for you. > > Bill if your family was starving, had no place to live, and was threatened > by a corrupt government, that is up until Fox was elected last July, you > would try to find something better at any cost and don't tell me you > wouldn't. > > Gary, I'm sorry this has strayed for our original intent, but there are > lessons to be learned here, ones I had hoped had been learned in the 1940s. > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:50:41 -0700 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >I have no objection to ANYONE who comes here LEGALLY. As to whether or not > >we > >stole anything from anybody ... we stole it fair and square ... And, it is > >not > >a "problem" we shoud work with to solve our seive-like borders. It is our > >own > >government. A nation which cannot secure its borders is not long for the > >community of nations. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > John, I am offended by your comments about the Mexican people, but not > > > pissed off. The Mexicans are great people. In the last year I have > >been in > > > Mexico 12 times. I know there are some bad apples in the lot that give > >them > > > all a bad names, but we have our own too - just look at our jails. The > > > Mexicans are a warm and wonderful people. Most Americans fear them > >because > > > they don't understand the language or their culture. > > > > > > You talk about Californina, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. falling first. WE > > > FRIGGIN STOLE THAT TERRITORY FROM THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. School > >teachers > > > call that "Spanish Exploration." But we stole it from them the same way > >we > > > stole land from the indians. > > > > > > And let me tell you, buster, there were many men flying and fighting in > > > Europe that had mejican decendants. > > > > > > And if you look at the unemployment in the US, who else can we get to do > > > most jobs most Americans won't do, like flipping burgers and maids in > > > motels. I'm not advocating be keep them repressed, only that they will > >take > > > jobs most of us don't want. By the way, where did your ancestors come > >from, > > > bub? > > > > > > Y tambien, estoy aprendiendo esta idioma porque quiero apprendar por mis > > > juntos y empressa en mejico. > > > > > > Adios y cuidate mucho! > > > Kevin M. Pearson > > > (An Irishman through and through) > > > > > > I don't know why we can't find a way to work with Mexico on the border > > > problem. > > > > > > >From: William Heller > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > > > >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:52:50 -0700 > > > > > > > >John Jenkins ... > > > > > > > >20% of my street had Flags out today. I am deeply hurt. When I lived in > > > >half Moon Bay, California, there were MORE Messican flags flown on the > > > >Stinko de Mayo than there were American Flags flown on the Quatro de > > > >Julio .... It is an omen of things to come. Southern California will > > > >go first, then Nevada, then Arizona and then MAYBE someone will wake > >up! > > > >It is depressing. > > > > > > > >But, thanks. > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > >Bill Heller > > > > > > > >JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > Good for you! Just be certain that when you salute the flag > >you > > > > > are > > > > > wearing the appropriate uniform and your '50 mission crush cover'. > >I > > > > > believe > > > > > this is the proper expression for the WWII pilot 'cover' that we > >have > > > > > seen in > > > > > many photographs and movies. > > > > > I know that the appearance of the American flag and what it > > > > > meant was > > > > > an extremely welcome sight to those who had been living under the > > > > > thumb of > > > > > the tyrannical regimes which existed during WWII. You and the > > > > > veterans of > > > > > that era can certainly feel justifiably proud of what you > > > > > accomplished. > > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > > > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > > > > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 19:37:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:37:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: Message-ID: <3B2BA764.F04B37AC@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Once again ... thank you. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Absolutely amazing. How many of our ancestors originated from non English > speaking countries, then blended into the fabric of America and make this > nation great. > > I just wonder if the American Indians said the exact same thing in the mid > to late 1800s. > > This is all I'm going to say on the subject, because it is obvious to me you > haven't a clue what you are speaking about. If ignorance was a virtue, you > would be wise beyond your years. > > Gary, please delete me from this ring. I will not condone bigotrey in any > form. Good bye fellas! You have shattered every belief I have ever held > about you. > Kevin > > >From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:26:54 EDT > > > >Bill Heller and all, > > > > Only two houses of the twenty that are in my neighborhood had US > >flags > >displayed yesterday. This is somewhat disappointing. Also, I share your > >concerns about the Southwestern US. Dad lives in southern New Mexico and I > >understand that in certain areas of the state Spanish has become the > >predominant language. When I left that region almost three decades ago > >such > >was not the case. It has been shown that children initially educated in > >Spanish will not do well when forced to deal with the real world of English > >speaking America. Multi-lingualism is a nice idea, but does not work. The > >beauty of the US is that you can drive from Maine to California or from > >Florida to Washington and speak the same language. > > > > This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The region > >that > >is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New Mexico, > >Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by military force from > >its native inhabitants by Spain. Mexico merely inherited this vast area > >once > >the Spanish returned to Europe. Whether the native inhabitants of Mexico > >could have ever conquered and administered such a large area is open to > >question. Superior technology and ideas ultimately forced the Mexicans to > >vacate areas the Spanish had conquered in earlier centuries. The leaders > >of > >Mexico at that time accepted the terms of the treaties and monetary > >compensation for the land. I will adapt what Gen Grant said of the South > >in > >his Memoirs to Mexico. "If the South (Mexico) was meant to hold this > >region > >it would have done so." > > > > There must be something good about capitalism. Everyone seems to > >want > >to get to the capitalistic US for a better life. Mexico must dump its > >socialist government/economy to succeed and halt the hemorrhage of people > >to > >the US. > > > > We have somehow veered way off the topic of WWII. If this were a > >bombing mission I would think that we would have to make another pass or > >two > >at the target. Gary must have fallen asleep or is out flying in a B17. > > > > > >Best Wishes to all, > > > >John A. Jenkins > > > >6910 Old Redmond Road > >Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > >Phone (425) 885-0595 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 20:39:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:39:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day - ENOUGH OF THIS!!! In-Reply-To: <16.dfae078.285c2bfe@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B2B5399.26294.703C9@localhost> > This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The > region that > is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New > Mexico, Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by > military force from Everyone, please - GET BACK ON TOPIC!!!!! We are a 303rd, WWII group.... not anything else! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 20:47:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:47:28 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B2B5560.16382.DF53B@localhost> > > Gary, please delete me from this ring. I will not condone bigotrey in > any form. Good bye fellas! You have shattered every belief I have > ever held about you. Kevin, I want you here. You can delete yourself, or ask me to do it again and I will. We appreciate your input in the group. Please hang in here.... - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 16 19:30:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:30:23 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day - ENOUGH OF THIS!!! In-Reply-To: <3B2B5399.26294.703C9@localhost> References: <16.dfae078.285c2bfe@cs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010616083023.00899c20@ilhawaii.net> Thank you, Gary. ENOUGH ALREADY!!! Jim Walling At 12:39 PM 6/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >> This 'stealing' of land is subject to interpretation. The >> region that >> is now known as the country of Mexico and the states of Texas, New >> Mexico, Arizona, and most of California was originally taken by >> military force from > >Everyone, please - GET BACK ON TOPIC!!!!! >We are a 303rd, WWII group.... not anything else! > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 17 20:45:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:45:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day Message-ID: <63.178ffcc2.285e62d9@aol.com> I have a question for someone - At Reading Pa last weekend the quwstion came up. Where did we get our flight jackets - were they issued or made to order when we graduated from cadets? I dont remember a thing about it but a fellow who was examining it said it was not GI, Any comments???? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 17 21:31:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:31:02 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radium for blocked sinuses Message-ID: In looking through my father's old papers, and I noticed that he was given 3 treatments of Radium for blocked sinuses during the time he was flying missions. As this sounds like something that must have been rather experimental at the time, and something that could have had potential long term health effects, I was curious whether anyone was aware of any correlation between these radium treatments and health problems decades later? I'm curious how many of you airmen were given these treatments, and what your opinion of them might be? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 17 21:58:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:58:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kevin Pearson..... Message-ID: <50.17438632.285e73f0@aol.com> Kevin, Some where out in space there is an asteroid the size of Arizona more or less that is going to strike the earth. It could happen in a year or two or it could be several thousand years from now. If is not the question. The question is when. It could destroy most if not all life on earth. It will surely destroy all mammals and us Homo SAP e ons are one of them. We will probably know it is going to hit us a month or maybe a year before it does. It is going to be very difficult to maintain a conversation about who stole what from whom during that period. Kevin I have grown to be very fond of you (and Bill Heller) and several others since Gary started this group. Please don't take your ball and go home. One of the great things about America is our ability to have great differences in opinions but when the asteroid is going to strike we can and do unify and figure out a way to change its course or blow it up. I would like to know more about you. How old you are, where you live, your family, hobbies occupation, education, interests, etc. We don't all think alike and it is a very very good thing we don't. If we did we would only have one auto manufacturer and they would all be one color. Also brunets and blondes wouldn't have husbands. PLEASE KEVIN? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 17 22:31:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:31:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day - ENOUGH OF THIS!!! Message-ID: <6b.15e9cdbf.285e7bc0@aol.com> Bill, Kevin, Gary and all the rest of us, The undersigned has written new words to an old western song. Listen carefully to the new words. OH give me a home where the buffalo roamed, where the deer and the antelope played. It's all houses now. There's not room for a cow and the skies are all smoggy all day. Now my solution to our border problem. Invite Mexico to join and become part of the United States of America. They could form several states and elect members to represent them in our congress. They and we could come and go then just as we come and go between Arizona and Utah or any other two states. They need us and our economy. We need them and their agricultural land and labor force. Most all our produce comes from south of our borders now and as we continue to build subdivisions, freeways golf courses and shopping centers in our farm and ranch land it is rapidly going to get worse. It might take 10 or 20 years to smooth this out but I suspect it would go better and faster than we might think. The 303rd forum is no place to present this. I wouldn't send it if I hadn't taken so much time to type it. You can get mad at me if you want to. My shoulders are broad when I am wearing my padded jacket. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher PS. Think this out before you jump all over me. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 02:00:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:00:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] City or Spirit of Wanette Message-ID: <000c01c0f792$144620c0$2ae27ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0F770.8C9D70E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the 303rd Bomb Group CD the plane my uncle flew in on the = Oschersleben mission is called the Spirit of Wanette. In his book, Half = a Wing, Three Engines And A Prayer, Brian O'Neill calls the plane the = City of Wanette. Does any one in the group recall which one of these = names is correct? ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0F770.8C9D70E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On the 303rd Bomb Group CD the plane my uncle flew = in on the=20 Oschersleben mission is called the Spirit of Wanette.  In his book, = Half a Wing, Three Engines And A Prayer, Brian O'Neill calls = the plane=20 the City of Wanette.  Does any one in the group recall which one of = these=20 names is correct?
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0F770.8C9D70E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 03:10:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:10:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] City or Spirit of Wanette In-Reply-To: <000c01c0f792$144620c0$2ae27ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <3B2D0094.527.29FBABB@localhost> > On the 303rd Bomb Group CD the plane my uncle flew in on the > Oschersleben mission is called the Spirit of Wanette. In his book, > Half a Wing, Three Engines And A Prayer, Brian O'Neill calls the plane > the City of Wanette. Does any one in the group recall which one of > these names is correct? > That is a good question, as both names are correct. On the web page, we must have an error. We show the names as being interchangable, but we have two numbers for them. We have #42- 31241 and #42-31616, each with both names. I'll copy this to Harry Gobrecht and let him sort it out for us. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 17 22:05:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:05:01 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bom's and nav's Message-ID: <004b01c0f771$2e358b40$f4d60b3f@default> I read somewhere the bombardier and navigator werent in the nose during takeoff but behind the pilot and copilot's seat. Was this standard procedure for takeoff or was that just something that particular crew did? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 03:18:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:18:58 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bom's and nav's Message-ID: <20010618021900.UBTR12661.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, I think the individual crews had their own policy on where the navigator and bombardier were positioned at take-off. On our crew we were in the nose on take-off but in the radio shack on landing. I have watched the end of the runway disappear under the nose and the wheels were still on the ground With maximum loads we used every inch of the runway. bill runnels--bombardier > I read somewhere the bombardier and navigator werent in the nose during > takeoff but behind the pilot and copilot's seat. Was this standard procedure > for takeoff or was that just something that particular crew did? > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 04:35:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:35:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bom's and nav's Message-ID: <26.16f84bd0.285ed10e@aol.com> On our crew they were in the nose. Probably if we were going to belly it in or had a brake failure, etc., we would have put them in the waist, for landing but I don't remember of ever doing it. We never landed or took off with any one in the ball except once when they wanted to take movies of the landing gear coming down and touching down. This was not returning from a mission. Some crews or Squadrons could have had them standing behind the pilots but on our crew the engineer was there. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 06:21:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:21:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <63.178ffcc2.285e62d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c0f7b6$81704120$b32564d8@computer> If you are referring to brown flight jacket, they were designated as A-2 and were issued to our crew at Homestead AAB prior to our departure for Blimey in February 1943. Don't know what pooicy was later. Ed Lamme, Bombardier ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > I have a question for someone - At Reading Pa last weekend the quwstion came > up. Where did we get our flight jackets - were they issued or made to order > when we graduated from cadets? I dont remember a thing about it but a fellow > who was examining it said it was not GI, Any comments???? > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 15:13:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:13:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bom's and nav's Message-ID: <12b.2e396d.285f66a1@aol.com> Takeoff or landing, I wouldn't for the world have missed the greatest view in the plane... the Bombardier's perch. Cheers, Bob Hand, (B) Fink's Crew, 303/360 35m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 18 21:29:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:29:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] `Buz Job Message-ID: <12e.36a5d8.285fbeae@aol.com> During the fall of 1944 a 303rd pilot, when he returned from his last mission, buzzed the length of the airport about 20 feet off the ground from east to west, north of our main runway with all 4 engines feathered. I would estimate his speed at about 300 MPH. When he reached the West boundary of the airport he unfeathered the outboards at the same time and then the two inboards. He then made a normal downwind north of the airport and landed. I told a shirttail relative who is a pilot and worked for Boeing about this and he swears this would be impossible. I knew who did it at the time but I have forgotten his name now and even if I hadn't forgotten I would say I did. Did any of you see this or was I dreaming? Please help if you can Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 00:39:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (george frecther) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:39:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 427th sqd Message-ID: <003801c0f84f$f31f6640$0489a818@nj.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0F82E.6B7E5780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Flew with thew 303rd group from Jan 44 to May 44 on James Melton crew. I was the Navigator and several times flew in another aircraft to be = lead squadron navigator. Found this site only by luck when my son punched in our last name to see = what he could find. Since l946, I has not heard or seen any of my crew or other airforce = people. Have joined earlier when I had a different e-mail address so this is = just catching up. At the airbase I was known as Harry Frechter but since has been using = the name of George Frechter.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0F82E.6B7E5780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Flew with thew 303rd group from Jan 44 to May 44 on = James=20 Melton crew.
I was the Navigator and several times flew in = another aircraft=20 to be lead squadron navigator.
Found this site only by luck when my son punched in = our last=20 name to see what he could find.
Since l946, I has not heard or seen any of my crew = or other=20 airforce people.
Have joined earlier when I had a different = e-mail address=20 so this is just catching up.
At the airbase I was known as Harry Frechter but = since has=20 been using the name of George Frechter. 
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0F82E.6B7E5780-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 00:41:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (george frecther) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:41:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day References: <63.178ffcc2.285e62d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <003e01c0f850$42d68100$0489a818@nj.rr.com> Flight jackets were GI issue but were quickly of stock. I got mine when a crew member "liberated one" George Frechter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] June 14--Flag Day > I have a question for someone - At Reading Pa last weekend the quwstion came > up. Where did we get our flight jackets - were they issued or made to order > when we graduated from cadets? I dont remember a thing about it but a fellow > who was examining it said it was not GI, Any comments???? > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 02:39:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:39:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 427th Message-ID: <12.e58b41a.2860074c@aol.com> --part1_12.e58b41a.2860074c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, did you know Merlin Miller of the 427th? He was a tail gunner in Hullar's plane. He lives in Dugger, Indiana. I see hiim about twice a week. He helped write Three Engines, Half a Wing and a Prayer. Terry Lucas --part1_12.e58b41a.2860074c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, did you know Merlin Miller of the 427th? He was a tail gunner in
Hullar's plane. He lives in Dugger, Indiana. I see hiim about twice a week.
He helped write Three Engines, Half a Wing and a Prayer.
Terry Lucas --part1_12.e58b41a.2860074c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 20:24:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:24:46 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please can anyone help ? Message-ID: <009601c0f8f5$807e2300$198b7ad5@n0i6c5> I have just received this e-mail (below), from a friend, and I hope you guy's will not mind my asking if anyone has recorded this program from the History Channel. Thanks, Moofy (Yvonne)UK Hi Friends, please is there anybody who taped the film from USA-History Channel called 'Suicide Missions' about the 'Ball Turret Gunners'. USA- VCR-standard! Because of a journey it could not be taped (recorded) but this film would be of great interest for a former B24- gunner. Would you allow a copy for him? Thanks At first please contact: a.domanig@tirol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 21:22:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:22:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F Nose Armament Message-ID: <3B2FB499.80F19468@uswest.net> Hi 303rd- I just received a great firepower diagram that the Germans had on the B-17F and it raised some questions I've had for a while. Namely, when did cheek guns become common (if ever) in Fs, and when were the .30s in the noses replaced by .50s? According to my information, a .50 was field-installed in the nose of Delta Rebel 2 (91st BG) as early as Dec., 1942 at the pilot's insistence, but the factory-installed .50s on the Fs didn't start showing up in England until May of 43 on the models with "Tokyo Tanks." Had most of the planes been field-modified with .50s by then, or just a few? Was it a "finagle" to get the .50s, or were they readily available? When the .50s were installed in the front, did the .30(s) stay onboard for the side windows, or were they fitted with .50s, too? I suppose this may have varied from plane to plane, huh? Comments? Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 22:05:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:05:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please can anyone help ? Message-ID: Moofy, A copy of this episode can be purchased from the History Channel website. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Moofy [SMTP:moofy@talk21.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:25 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please can anyone help ? I have just received this e-mail (below), from a friend, and I hope you guy's will not mind my asking if anyone has recorded this program from the History Channel. Thanks, Moofy (Yvonne)UK Hi Friends, please is there anybody who taped the film from USA-History Channel called 'Suicide Missions' about the 'Ball Turret Gunners'. USA- VCR-standard! Because of a journey it could not be taped (recorded) but this film would be of great interest for a former B24- gunner. Would you allow a copy for him? Thanks At first please contact: a.domanig@tirol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 22:20:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:20:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F Nose Armament References: <3B2FB499.80F19468@uswest.net> Message-ID: <000901c0f905$b61424a0$17d04dd1@computer> Mike: We arrived Molesworth mid March 43 and practiced for a couple of weeks before our first mission on April 4. At that time twin 50's had been installed in the nose and both right and left guns were also converted to 50's. As I recall our ground crew chief told us guns had been recently installed in 392 (later Stric Nine), but I don't know when installation took place. Ed Lamme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike McClanahan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F Nose Armament > Hi 303rd- > > I just received a great firepower diagram that the Germans had on the > B-17F and it raised some questions I've had for a while. Namely, when > did cheek guns become common (if > ever) in Fs, and when were the .30s in the noses replaced by .50s? > > According to my information, a .50 was field-installed in the nose of > Delta Rebel 2 (91st BG) as early as Dec., 1942 at the pilot's > insistence, but the factory-installed .50s on the Fs didn't start > showing up in England until May of 43 on the models with "Tokyo Tanks." > Had most of the planes been field-modified with .50s by then, or just a > few? Was it a "finagle" to get the .50s, or were they readily > available? When the .50s were installed in the front, did the .30(s) > stay onboard for the side windows, or were they fitted with .50s, too? > I suppose this may have varied from plane to plane, huh? > > Comments? > > Mike McClanahan > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 19 22:44:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:44:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Please can anyone help ? Message-ID: <2f.16aeee7a.286121a3@aol.com> Moofy, I did not record Suicide Missions but I saw the show twice. I am quite sure it did not happen. The B17 did land on it's belly, but there was no gunner in the ball turret. The gear and ball turret on a B17 were both electric. The only hydraulic systems on a B17 are the brakes and cowl flaps so a hydraulic failure as stated would not affect the gear or the turret. The turret can be hand cranked as can the gear. The ball operator can bail out of the ball or get back into the waist. If all else failed one of the crew members could chop him out in 5 minutes. I think if you investigate the Ball was the safest position on the crew. I am quite sure we had fewer casualties in the ball than any other position on the crew. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 20 14:18:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:18:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: FW: Great Letter Message-ID: <7a.16941ab9.2861fcaf@aol.com> --part1_7a.16941ab9.2861fcaf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_7a.16941ab9.2861fcaf_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: BOMDRPR303@aol.com Full-name: BOMDRPR303 Message-ID: <65.15b42b8e.2857669e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:35:42 EDT Subject: Fwd: FW: Great Letter To: ald@derbytech.com, Fortdriver@aol.com, edmiller@pldi.net, glm@303rdbga.com, MDebbie33@aol.com, Jerryr@cros.net, Dennis@303rdbga.com, Susskin@webtv.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_7a.16941ab9.2857669e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 --part2_7a.16941ab9.2857669e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part2_7a.16941ab9.2857669e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.37]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:27:17 2000 Received: from usgate02.e-mail.com (usgate02.e-mail.com [204.146.55.142]) by rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:27:10 -0400 X-igwMailID: f5CBNSh48014.U02 Received: Received: by usgate.e-mail.com with ESMTP id f5CBNSh48014 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:23:28 GMT Received: by rpc3-cocexnt.rpc.rich.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:18:48 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Bowers, Pamela" To: "'BOMDRPR303@aol.com'" Subject: FW: Great Letter Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:18:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Defending the Military On 12 Jan, Ms Cindy Williams (from Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Times denouncing the pay raise(s) coming service members' way this year-citing that the stated 13% wage gap was bogus. A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below. He ought to get a bonus for this! Ms. Williams :I just had the pleasure of reading your column of 12 Jan 00, "Our GIs earn enough," and I am a bit confused. Frankly, I'm wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting Service) and my bank account. Checking my latest leave and earnings statement (LES), see that I make $1,117.80, before taxes. After taxes, I take home $ 874.20. When I run that through Windows' Calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40 after. I work in the Air Force Network Control Center (AFNCC), where I am part of he team responsible for the administration of a 25,000-host computer network. I am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment. A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, D.C. area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job. Amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year, nor does it pay less than this. No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum. I'm sure you can draw the obvious conclusions. Also, you tout increases to Basic Allowance for Housing and Basic Allowance for subsistence (housing and food allowances, respectively) as being a further boon to an already overcompensated force. Again, I'm curious as to where this money has gone, as BAH and BAS were both slashed 15% in the Hill AFB area effective in January 00. Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you have NEVER had the pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces. Before you take it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and DOD leadership for attempting to get the families in the military's lowest pay brackets off AFDC, WIC, and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for Saudi- I leave the choice of service branch up to you. Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month rotation: it will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience." As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones. Also take care to note that several families are still unsure of how they'll be able to make ends meet while the primary breadwinner is gone-obviously they've been squandering the vast piles of cash the DOD has been giving them. Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and Thanksgiving are perennial favorites. And when you're actually over there, sitting in a DFP (Defensive Fire Position, the modern-day foxhole), shivering against the cold desert night, and the flight sergeant tells you that there aren't enough people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember this: trade whatever MRE you manage to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything. Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted; it won't nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for it. You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree with most of the points you present in your op-ed piece. But, tomorrow from Sarajevo, I will defend to the death your right to say it. You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of your First Amendment rights and every other right you cherish. On a daily basis, my brother and sister soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you can thumb your collective noses at us, all on a salary that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions that would make most people cringe. We hemorrhage our best and brightest into the private sector because we can't offer the stability and pay of civilian companies. And you, Ms. Williams, have the gall to say that we make more than we deserve? Rubbish! A1C Michael Bragg Hill AFB AFNCC IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE PASS THIS ALONG TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AND SHOW OUR SUPPORT OF THE AMERICAN FIGHTING MEN & WOMEN. THANK YOU. THIS LETTER SHOULD BE APPLAUDED BY ANYONE WHO'S EVER SERVED OR HAD A FAMILY MEMBER SERVE IN THE ARMED FORCES. --part2_7a.16941ab9.2857669e_boundary-- --part1_7a.16941ab9.2861fcaf_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 20 17:45:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:45:48 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dave Tooley Message-ID: <001b01c0f9a8$7639df20$233a7ad5@n0i6c5> Thanks Dave, I have heard from Roland in Austria, saying Kevin has been in touch with him, and is able to oblige. Cheers, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 20 20:09:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:09:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] an obit Message-ID: <000e01c0f9bc$99887a40$ddbcf5cd@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0F992.AFC77600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do not know just who should get this info but I wish to report the = death of William D. Foster, L1521.He is listed as being in the 358th sq. I do not know rank nor crew position. Death occurred 14th June 2001. He lived in Abingdon, IL and the obit was in a Peoria, IL newspaper. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0F992.AFC77600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do not know just who should get this = info but=20 I wish to report the death of William D. Foster, L1521.He is listed as = being in=20 the 358th sq.
I do not know rank nor crew position. = Death=20 occurred 14th June 2001.
 
He lived in Abingdon, IL and the obit = was in a=20 Peoria, IL newspaper.
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0F992.AFC77600-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 20 21:15:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:15:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] an obit In-Reply-To: <000e01c0f9bc$99887a40$ddbcf5cd@computer> Message-ID: <3B30A1FB.7940.1819F0F@localhost> Thanks, Fory. I'll get it to the right people. > I do not know just who should get this info but I wish to report the > death of William D. Foster, L1521.He is listed as being in the 358th > sq. I do not know rank nor crew position. Death occurred 14th June > 2001. > > He lived in Abingdon, IL and the obit was in a Peoria, IL newspaper. > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 21 06:41:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:41:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: B-17 Nose Armament References: <20010620160419.7474853558@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B31891C.4178C63A@uswest.net> Ed Lamme- Thanks for your reply. I take it that the .50s in your plane were a field mod. Were most of the other aircraft also fitted with them by the March-April period of '43? Was it policy to get the guns fitted ASAP? I wasn't there, but I don't think I'd have been inclined to dawdle in replacing the .30s if they were as weak as I've heard they were. Especially when the Germans figured out the best place to attack was from the front because of the lack of firepower, if my understanding is correct. With the increased muzzle velocity and range, did the bombardier and navigator get any special instruction on the new .50s, or was it a fairly simple adjustment? Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 21 18:26:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:26:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] nose armament Message-ID: <000d01c0fa77$45e28820$7a2764d8@computer> Mike McClanahan It is difficult to recall after so many years. Don't know if 50's were field mod, but believe they were. It was policy to install nose guns on receipt of planein order to familiarize on training flights to "the Wash". During combat crew training at Casper Wy Nov and Dec 42 bombardier and navigators used the waist guns for practice and also familiarized with the turrets. We did not have any guns in the nose, but early models had ports through which you were supposed to fire, then remove and use another port. As I recall there were four ports in the nose. Later F models did not have these ports, and of course the G model came along about July 43 with chin turrets. Bad part about the twin 50's was the fact that they were secured with a bungee cord which had to be secured during bomb run in order to allow bombardier to use the sight. I always wore helmet to keep from getting hit on the head by the guns, while bent over the sight. An interesting sidelight. In August 42 I flew in B17 A model out of Sebring, FL on sub=patrol missions. At that time U-boats were active in Caribbean and Atlantic. The A model had 30cal in nose, a top turret, no ball turret but a tunnel gun (entered through the radio room floor) waist guns and a single 50 in tail. A few had turbo superchargers but most did not, at least at that location as our search altitude was about 1000 ft. Norden sight not available, but we did have a D-8 model sight for low level bombing and carried 4 standard depth charges, but I don't remember the weight. Hope this answers your question, but as I said 59 years is a long time. Ed Lamme From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 01:01:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:01:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5CB0@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello all, Anyone know what the cost would be just to attend the Friday night dinner and presentation this September? I already reserved Dad and I a room for Friday night, and we will attend the ceremony in Arlington on Saturday. Looking forward to seeing all of you soon! Todd (303rd BGA A637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 02:09:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:09:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5CB0@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <3B32384B.7741.126B23E@localhost> > Anyone know what the cost would be just to attend the Friday night > dinner and presentation this September? I already reserved Dad and I > a room for Friday night, and we will attend the ceremony in Arlington > on Saturday. > Looking forward to seeing all of you soon! > Todd (303rd BGA A637) > Todd, Call Reunion Director Walt Ferrari and see what he says. His phone number is (803) 648-5598 We look forward to meeting you there, too. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 01:35:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:35:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery Message-ID: <21.d5dcdfa.2863ece0@aol.com> --part1_21.d5dcdfa.2863ece0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: My daughter went to the Ardennes American Cemetery, Neupre, Belgium on Tuesday, June 19, 2001. She is the first family member to visit my uncle S/Sgt. Joseph Keane. He was shot down on Jan 11, 1944 with the Eight Air Force. The Curator of the Cemetery came out to her and did everything he could for her. He left telling her I will be right back. When he returned he had an America Flag and a Belgium Flag that he place at the grave. He also had a camera and took pictures of her and the grave. She told me that she was so impress with him and the Cemetery. She left with a loverly feeling knowing that all the men there were being taken care of so well. She also said she had the feeling of being in the States while there. She also left information about my uncle's last flight, Which he accepted with thanks. Just though you guys would like to know. Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_21.d5dcdfa.2863ece0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
    My daughter went to the Ardennes American Cemetery, Neupre, Belgium on
Tuesday, June 19, 2001.  She is the first family member to visit my uncle
S/Sgt. Joseph Keane. He was shot down on Jan 11, 1944 with the Eight Air
Force.  The Curator of the Cemetery came out to her and did everything he
could for her.  He left telling her I will be right back.  When he returned
he had an America Flag and a Belgium Flag that he place at the grave.  He
also had a camera and took pictures of her and the grave. She told me that
she was so impress with him and the Cemetery.  She left with a loverly
feeling knowing that all the men there were being taken care of so well. She
also said she had the feeling of being in the States while there.
She also left information about my uncle's last flight, Which he accepted
with thanks.

Just though you guys would like to know.  Take care.
                                                                      
Brooklyn Bill
--part1_21.d5dcdfa.2863ece0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 02:39:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:39:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5CB0@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: > Hello all, > Anyone know what the cost would be just to attend the Friday night > dinner and presentation this September? Perhaps I read the brochure wrong, but it looked like to me that it said that if you didn't attend the whole week, that you wouldn't qualify for the discount in room rates at the hotel, and also, that it seemed like the fee for the reunion was $100 regardless of how many days you attended? Ie it seemed to be too costly to attend for 1 or 2 days. I hope I read it wrong. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 04:11:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:11:27 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: when our goverment, the same people that you fought for, lost friends for,gave arms and legs for, says that they cant afford to,,,,,, im pissed off, im 38 years old, my wife is an E-6 in the army. she works at R.A.F. molsworth. i am told that we are here because the brits say we can be here. im not military. never have been.i work at the store on molsworth. i was told that if you guys came over this year that i couldnt let you buy any thing from the place where i work, affes said that i couldnt sell you even a candy bar. i work on molsworth, i drive through the gate every day. i see the monument that they put there for those who lived, and died. all of you who lost your youth here. and they tell me that i cant serve you if you dont have a ration card, or a gas card.i work for a retired airforce guy, he retired as an E-8 . he told a guy that i was waiting on that we couldnt help him. this guy was a ball turret gunner, and we couldnt help him. as he left the store, he asked if any one cared anymore. what the hell. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 04:21:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:21:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery Message-ID: <107.19871c6.286413ad@cs.com> --part1_107.19871c6.286413ad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, That is quite a touching story. It is good to know that the cemeteries of our fallen are maintained with such great care. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_107.19871c6.286413ad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,
      That is quite a touching story.  It is good to know that the
cemeteries of our fallen are maintained with such great care.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_107.19871c6.286413ad_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 05:03:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:03:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Magazine Article on Molesworth Message-ID: <51.d43dff1.28641d8f@cs.com> --part1_51.d43dff1.28641d8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I came across an article today concerning RAF Molesworth in the publication Aviation Week & Space Technology of 6/18/01 that some may find of interest. This is quite unique as not much is generally known of Molesworth. The article on page 172 gives a brief description of the base and the mission of the Joint Analysis Center (JAC). Curiously, there is an aerial photograph and map of the main area of Molesworth accompanying the article. In the upper center of the photograph may be seen the remaining WWII hangars. Obviously, this information has been cleared as the magazine arrived at Boeing where I work via US Mail. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_51.d43dff1.28641d8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      I came across an article today concerning RAF Molesworth in the
publication Aviation Week & Space Technology of 6/18/01 that some may find of
interest.  This is quite unique as not much is generally known of Molesworth.
 The article on page 172 gives a brief description of the base and the
mission of the Joint Analysis Center (JAC).  Curiously, there is an aerial
photograph and map of the main area of Molesworth accompanying the article.  
In the upper center of the photograph may be seen the remaining WWII hangars.
 Obviously, this information has been cleared as the magazine arrived at
Boeing where I work via US Mail.

Best Wishes,     

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_51.d43dff1.28641d8f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 06:16:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:16:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moleswprth tape Message-ID: Brian McGuire or Harry or Gary if you know where I can reach him. I have a Molesworth tape for you if you still want it. I'm not sure where to send it. It's one you can keep. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 17:11:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:11:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery References: <21.d5dcdfa.2863ece0@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c0fb36$20cbb240$063f22d1@billowen> Brooklyn Bill, you may already know this...but in case that you don't. If you will go to the American Battle Monuments Commission website at www.usabmc.com you can order color photos of the cemetery and of Joseph Keane's burial site. They are free. Click on Services Available, then click on Photo of Grave or Marker Request and you will find a form to fill out and mail. Takes a while to get it but it is well worth having. I ordered some of my brother's grave in the Margraten, Netherlands cemetery. They sent beautiful pictures of the cemetery with an inset of my brother's marker. The picture is about 19"x15". I have mine framed and on my office wall. P.S. When I went into the Army during the Korean War (and, yes, it was war-not a police action), I wound up in the 187th Field Artillery Observation Batallion. It was a National Guard unit from Brooklyn that had been mobilized. They were understaffed and they put a lot of us ole southern boys in to bring them up to full strength. We had a hell of a time at first but we soon got them straghtened out. Ha! Best Wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery > Hi To All: > My daughter went to the Ardennes American Cemetery, Neupre, Belgium on > Tuesday, June 19, 2001. She is the first family member to visit my uncle > S/Sgt. Joseph Keane. He was shot down on Jan 11, 1944 with the Eight Air > Force. The Curator of the Cemetery came out to her and did everything he > could for her. He left telling her I will be right back. When he returned > he had an America Flag and a Belgium Flag that he place at the grave. He > also had a camera and took pictures of her and the grave. She told me that > she was so impress with him and the Cemetery. She left with a loverly > feeling knowing that all the men there were being taken care of so well. She > also said she had the feeling of being in the States while there. > She also left information about my uncle's last flight, Which he accepted > with thanks. > > Just though you guys would like to know. Take care. > > Brooklyn Bill > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 19:17:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:17:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk Contact Bryan McQuire Message-ID: <12d.6aca1c.2864e5a3@aol.com> Yvonne, Moofy, is trying to contact Bryan McQuire at bmcquire@acsdefense-dc.com, the last address she has. Moofy's address is moofy@talk21.com. Does anyone have a different address for Bryan? Please advise Moofy of the correct address for Bryan. B Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 19:26:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:26:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Bryan McGuire Message-ID: <10f.187f19e.2864e7c5@aol.com> I made the mistake of copying the note from Moofy about Bryan McGuire. I typed a "Q" instead of a "G". That would make his address:bmguire@acsdefense-dc.com. Is this his correct address? B Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 21:35:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:35:14 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Bryan McGuire In-Reply-To: <10f.187f19e.2864e7c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B334992.28062.522475@localhost> > I made the mistake of copying the note from Moofy about Bryan McGuire. > I typed a "Q" instead of a "G". That would make his > address:bmguire@acsdefense-dc.com. Is this his correct address? B > Dallas > Brian's email is: bmcguire@acsdefense.com He is leaving Molesworth for good in a week. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 22:51:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:51:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery Message-ID: <88.84787a8.286517df@aol.com> --part1_88.84787a8.286517df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill: I am awaiting the pictures at this time from the Commission. My daughter also shot a roll and a half of film. I don't understand one thing. As far as I know, you can't straighten out a guy from Brooklyn. Thanks and Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_88.84787a8.286517df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill:
  I am awaiting the pictures at this time from the Commission.  My daughter
also shot a roll and a half of film.  I don't understand one thing.  As far
as I know, you can't straighten out a guy from Brooklyn.  Thanks and Take
care.
                                                                      
Brooklyn Bill
                             --part1_88.84787a8.286517df_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 22 22:55:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:55:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ardennes Cemetery Message-ID: <39.168f037f.286518d9@aol.com> --part1_39.168f037f.286518d9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John: I agree. Someday I will get there. (When all these kids move out) Take care. Brooklyn Bill --part1_39.168f037f.286518d9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John:
 I agree.  Someday I will get there. (When all these kids move out)
Take care.
                                             Brooklyn Bill
                                 --part1_39.168f037f.286518d9_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 23 16:39:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hans Reusink) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:39:58 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ADOPTION Message-ID: <01c0fbfa$c26ea200$LocalHost@default> Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0FC0B.85F77200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WOULD LOVE TO GET INFO ON FICKEN, LEWIS P T/SGT NORTH CAROLINA 359 BOMB SQ 303RD BOMBGP/H DIED OVER COLOGNE GERMANY DIED NOV. 1ST 1944 GRAAF PLOT J ROW 7 GRAVE 4 HOME ADRESS UNKNOWN IF YOU HAVE ANY DETAILS, I WOULD VERY MUCH APRECIATE TAKING CARE OF HIS = GRAVE SINCERELY HANS REUSINK ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0FC0B.85F77200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WOULD LOVE TO GET INFO   = ON
FICKEN, LEWIS P T/SGT NORTH = CAROLINA
359 BOMB SQ 303RD BOMBGP/H
DIED OVER COLOGNE GERMANY
DIED NOV. 1ST 1944
GRAAF PLOT J ROW 7 GRAVE 4
HOME ADRESS UNKNOWN
IF YOU HAVE ANY DETAILS, I WOULD VERY = MUCH=20 APRECIATE  TAKING CARE OF HIS GRAVE
SINCERELY HANS REUSINK=20 <hans.reusink@planet.nl>
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0FC0B.85F77200-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 23 20:06:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:06:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <3B348634.30276.17B94E3@localhost> WOW! What a ride! About the supposed air density concerns: an EAA guy told me the *real* reason they move from SLC to Ogden was they didn't want to mess with the Class B airspace around SLC International. This has been one of the greatest days of my life. Some pics are here: http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 23 19:58:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:58:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] LT Ron Jackman Message-ID: <001a01c0fc16$8891a3e0$01ed7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0FBF5.00C76240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Below is an exchange of messages between Donna Rose and myself. She is = trying to find any information she can on here brother, Lt. Ron Jackman, = who was killed in action on Dec 20, 1943. Does anyone out there = remember him or remember anything about that mission?=20 Since our exchange of messages, I realize that I can probably get some = information on the mission from the the 303rd's CD. I will take a look = at that this weekend.=20 Original message I am the sister of 2Lt Lon E. Jackman who was the copilot of the "Whisky = Sheets" and was killed in action on Dec. 20, 1943 on a mission over = Germany.=20 I see by the picture that James F. Donnelly was wing gunner and = survived. =20 I am in the process of helping the State of South Dakota in honoring the = service men killed in WW II. If you have any information about the = mission=20 and or crew please contact me. Donna (Jackman) Rose, 2038 Ave C. Billings, Mt. 59102 406-259-0516) Thank you for your help. My Response Apparently Lon Jackman was a co-pilot with Bob Sheets, but my Uncle did = not fly on the mission where your brother was killed. My uncle never = mentioned Lon Jackman so, unfortunately, I cannot help you. Your brother must = have gone on that mission with another crew. The 303rd Bomb Group Association has a list serve where some members = stay in contact with one another. If you belong to that group you can ask = anybody if they remember Lt Jackman. If you don't belong I will be glad to ask = for you. Her Response Thank you for your quick response. Yes I would like your help. His=20 aircraft was downed on Dec. 20, 1943 at Buxhoeveda, Germany. His body = was=20 recoved on Dec. 24, 1943, and he is interred at Margraten, Holland near=20 Aachen, Germany. We would be interested in anyone who might have flown with him on that=20 flight. It is our understanding that the others survived. Thanks again. Donna (Jackman) Rose ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0FBF5.00C76240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Below is an exchange of messages between Donna Rose = and=20 myself.  She is trying to find any information she can on here = brother, Lt.=20 Ron Jackman, who was killed in action on Dec 20, 1943.  Does anyone = out=20 there remember him or remember anything about that = mission? 
 
Since our exchange of messages, I realize that I can probably get = some=20 information on the mission from the the 303rd's CD.  I = will take=20 a look at that this weekend. 
 
Original message
 
I am the sister of 2Lt Lon E. Jackman = who was the=20 copilot of the "Whisky
Sheets" and was killed in action on Dec. 20, = 1943 on=20 a mission over Germany.
  I see by the picture that James F. = Donnelly=20 was wing gunner and survived. 
I am in the process of helping = the State=20 of South Dakota in honoring the
service men killed in WW II.  = If you=20 have any information about the mission
and or crew please contact=20 me.

Donna (Jackman) Rose, 2038 Ave C.  Billings, Mt. 59102=20 406-259-0516)

Thank you for your help.
My Response
 
Apparently Lon Jackman was a co-pilot = with Bob=20 Sheets, but my Uncle did not
fly on the mission where your brother = was=20 killed.  My uncle never mentioned
Lon Jackman so, unfortunately, = I=20 cannot help you.  Your brother must have
gone on that mission = with=20 another crew.

The 303rd Bomb Group Association has a list serve = where=20 some members stay in
contact with one another.  If you belong to = that=20 group you can ask anybody
if they remember Lt Jackman.  If you = don't=20 belong I will be glad to ask=20 for
you.
 
Her Response
 
Thank you for your = quick=20 response.  Yes I would like your help.  His
aircraft was = downed on=20 Dec. 20, 1943 at Buxhoeveda, Germany.  His body was
recoved on = Dec. 24,=20 1943, and he is interred at Margraten, Holland near
Aachen,=20 Germany.

We would be interested in anyone who might have flown = with him=20 on that
flight.  It is our understanding that the others=20 survived.

Thanks again.  Donna (Jackman)=20 Rose
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0FBF5.00C76240-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 23 20:59:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:59:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: Gary, Thanks for the note. I couldn't find the pictures. I'm just not smart enough on this computers yet if ever Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 02:29:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:29:17 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <20010624012917.XMMH3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Gary, the pictures are great! Sounds like you had an enjoyable day. Thanks for sharing the photos with us. Regards,......Billunnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 02:57:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:57:55 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight References: <3B348634.30276.17B94E3@localhost> Message-ID: <006501c0fc51$1648e380$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> NICE photos, Gary. I'm happy for you. I am guessing, but are you the handsome guy in the coveralls with the shit-eatin' grin about a mile wide? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight > WOW! What a ride! > About the supposed air density concerns: an EAA guy told me the > *real* reason they move from SLC to Ogden was they didn't want to > mess with the Class B airspace around SLC International. This has > been one of the greatest days of my life. > Some pics are here: > http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 03:07:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:07:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <18.e585b30.2866a558@aol.com> Bill and/or Gary, Dumb Question. What do I do with my computer to get to see Gary's pictures? I've got windows 98 and am on AOL. I've got Quick Books Pro and a sore back too, but I don't believe they will help me. I did fly B24s some (Not in combat) and kinda liked them. Do you suppose I'm being punished? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 04:09:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:09:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight In-Reply-To: <006501c0fc51$1648e380$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3B34F769.6285.47C2B8@localhost> > NICE photos, Gary. I'm happy for you. I am guessing, but are you the > handsome guy in the coveralls with the shit-eatin' grin about a mile > wide? Gordy. Nah... I'm the guy in the 303rd hat in photo 14. The guy in the coveralls had that grin the entire time. He was an aircraft mechanic in the AF in the 50s and worked on similar planes. He spent the entire 30 miuntes doing the "thumbs up" sign. http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html At one time, we flew through a canyon somewhere near Ogden and the hills on each side were higher than the plane. I thought we were going to crash for a minute as I was bouncing off the walls. The pilot was doing some wild flying for a while. I understand he flies 747s and flies the B-17 for fun. We had a Cessna 182 at 2 o'clock, but he wasn't shooting at us. As we were taking off, I looked out the window at the #4 four engine and wondered what it would be like to have it on fire, as I've heard so many times. I'd go again in a minute. It was quite a day! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 04:13:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:13:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight In-Reply-To: <18.e585b30.2866a558@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B34F864.32051.4B979A@localhost> > What do I do with my computer to get to see > Gary's pictures? I've got windows 98 and am on AOL. Can someone on AOL explain to Jack Rencher how to open up a webpage from a URL in a message like this one. Thanks! http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html Jack, I'd guess you could put your mouse curser on it and quickly double-click the left button, but I may be wrong. I don't know about AOL. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 03:17:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:17:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Search for murdered crewman Message-ID: <007901c0fc53$dc8a2520$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Hello All, Below is a conversation between myself, Ray Bowden, and Mike Banta (ringmaster 91stBGRing). We are involved in a search for information on the exact identity of a murdered crewman, in order to help Inge Grondin ( SENNERIN@aol.com ) find information for a ceremony to be conducted for the airman, in a town near to where he was murdered. Please send any info to Inge, and myself gordy@saltspring.com so that I can help coordinate the search. I know you'll all do your best. I will be sure to post the results on Heavy Bombers, and keep others involved in the know. Thanks, Gordy. ****************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ****************************************** Hi Inge, I received this information on the 91st BG email ring today, from our good friend and author, Ray Bowden, in England. We may be getting a little closer, now that we have this info. I am going to put out some feelers to some other folks, now that Ray has been good enough to provide this, and get us a little bit closer. More later, I am sure. Gordy. ***************************************** Hi Inge and 91sters. Ray Bowden sent the following reply to Inge's question, "Who was the American airman killed by the Germans, 20th July 44?" As Ray says, "Perhaps this info is enough to get others digging to come up with the answer." Mike Banta, 91st Ring In a message dated 6/22/2001 6:54:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjbowden@usaaf-noseart.co.uk writes: << Subj: Re:20th July 44 Date: 6/22/2001 6:54:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: rjbowden@usaaf-noseart.co.uk (Ray Bowden) To: B17banta@aol.com (Mike Banta) Mike: I am literally about to leave the house for a week or so in France and don't have enough time to check the details but I believe that the airman who was killed (lynched) by German civilians on 20th July 44 was from Albert DESHAW's crew flying 42-31982 (Superstitious Aloysius). The navigator Lt Hanke was killed due to no chute but two other EMs were also killed. There were S/Sgt Arthur S WILBORN (TT) and Sgt Gene H WALKER (BT). Deshaw reported that he was almosr lynched himself by the crowd but was saved by German troops. I can't tell from my notes which of the other two was killed by the civilians and don't have any time to search for more info now. Perhaps this info is enough to get others digging to come up with the answer. (Steve or Lowell??) If not I will see if i can clarify when I return. RAY PS I have not sent this message to anyone other than you at this time >> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 03:23:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:23:14 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight References: <3B34F769.6285.47C2B8@localhost> Message-ID: <009501c0fc54$9fba1a00$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Still a pretty good grin. Nice to put a face to the name, finally. I am getting a bit more stuff ready for the POW page. ('nother week or so, I hope). Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight > > NICE photos, Gary. I'm happy for you. I am guessing, but are you the > > handsome guy in the coveralls with the shit-eatin' grin about a mile > > wide? Gordy. > > Nah... I'm the guy in the 303rd hat in photo 14. The guy in the > coveralls had that grin the entire time. He was an aircraft mechanic > in the AF in the 50s and worked on similar planes. He spent the > entire 30 miuntes doing the "thumbs up" sign. > > http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 04:39:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:39:44 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight In-Reply-To: <009501c0fc54$9fba1a00$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3B34FE90.28201.63B554@localhost> > Still a pretty good grin. > Nice to put a face to the name, finally. > I am getting a bit more stuff ready for the POW page. ('nother week or > so, I hope). Gordy. Thanks, My brother in CA saw the photos and immediately noticed the label in the corner of this photo. He worked for Swedlow Aeroplastics and now works for the company that bought them out. http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Image27.jpg - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 03:53:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:53:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <89.8759b05.2866b032@gateway.net> To Jack rencher ... Try to double click on Gary's link, below: http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html If that doesn't work... Try to run your mouse over Gary's URL ... while holding the left clicker down. The URL should turn black and if it does, hold the right clicker down and choose "copy" from the box that appears. Then go to your browser box that has a "GO" button beside it and right click in that browser... from the box that pops up, choose "paste" then click on the "GO" button. If all goes well, you should be in Gary's Aluminum Link. Good luck, Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 05:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:43:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack got the Pictures Message-ID: <11a.ba1f1a.2866c9ef@aol.com> Thank you all, I got the pictures. They are great Gary. When I printed them they had a green tint. Maybe I was air sick but I think I need a new ink cartridge which I shall get Monday Hal, Next time you are writing e-mail and have time would you tell us about PFF and how it worked and what PFF stands for. Thank you. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 06:14:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Clark Hyman) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:14:43 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight In-Reply-To: <3B34F864.32051.4B979A@localhost> Message-ID: Gary: Why am I receiving all these emails? Eight in one evening? Clark Hyman -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 8:13 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight > What do I do with my computer to get to see > Gary's pictures? I've got windows 98 and am on AOL. Can someone on AOL explain to Jack Rencher how to open up a webpage from a URL in a message like this one. Thanks! http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html Jack, I'd guess you could put your mouse curser on it and quickly double-click the left button, but I may be wrong. I don't know about AOL. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 18:25:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:25:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bom's and nav's Message-ID: <30.16b4c9c6.28677c82@aol.com> no not ever in my flights. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 18:38:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:38:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Magazine Article on Molesworth Message-ID: <1e.1799d4c6.28677fa6@aol.com> john can you put it for us through your computer as i do not have access to report. thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 18:57:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:57:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <84.17c75152.286783f7@aol.com> thaqnks an grant. gary ,handsome gent. great good shots. best i have seen of nose interior of g. glad you had the flight experience. have visited in tour stops here ,but not taken flight. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 20:43:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:43:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Magazine Article on Molesworth Message-ID: <123.bc4a4d.28679cec@cs.com> --part1_123.bc4a4d.28679cec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, I found an online version of Aviation Week & Space Technology after I sent my initial email. You can view the article and photo by going to www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010618/aw172.htm. The WWII hangars appear in the upper center of the aerial picture. The JAC building is the large structure in the right center of this picture. Not shown in the photo is the main gate where the 303rd Memorial is located. If the gate and Memorial were in this picture they would be somewhere in the distance to the lower right. Keep in mind that the photo is very small. The aerial photo is somewhat clearer in the magazine. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_123.bc4a4d.28679cec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,

      I found an online version of Aviation Week & Space Technology after I
sent my initial email.  You can view the article and photo by going to

            www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010618/aw172.htm.

      The WWII hangars appear in the upper center of the aerial picture.  
The JAC building is the large structure in the right center of this picture.  
Not shown in the photo is the main gate where the 303rd Memorial is located.  
If the gate and Memorial were in this picture they would be somewhere in the
distance to the lower right.  Keep in mind that the photo is very small.  The
aerial photo is somewhat clearer in the magazine.

Best Wishes,   

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_123.bc4a4d.28679cec_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 21:33:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:33:14 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk Contact Bryan McQuire Message-ID: would it be SFC Brian McQuire? we have one of those here at molesworth. if its the same one, i can get that addres for you. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 21:45:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:45:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Aluminium Overcast Message-ID: Hi Gary, Beautiful pictures, I'm saving them on my hard drive. Glad you enjoyed the ride. Did you get at the controls? Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jun 24 22:51:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:51:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Magazine Article on Molesworth Message-ID: <113.ba4df1.2867bad6@aol.com> gracious appreciation. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 00:06:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:06:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest,Aluminium Overcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B361011.31074.21D9B60@localhost> > Beautiful pictures, I'm saving them on my hard drive. Glad you enjoyed > the ride. Did you get at the controls? I just tried the guns and bombsight, but couldn't get either to work. Probably a good thing for that Cessna. :-) It did seem strange to see the new, digital navigation screens on the old dashboard. My brother went on 909 a couple of months ago and we've been comparing notes. We're both ready to go again! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 01:38:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:38:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight References: <18.e585b30.2866a558@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c0fd0f$3295f8c0$68f833cf@richards> Jack ; You are right you are being punished for flying and liking"THE BOX THE B17 CAME IN". Jack just click on the blue print under Gary's message some pictures are here. Dick "Spider" Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight > Bill and/or Gary, Dumb Question. What do I do with my computer to get to see > Gary's pictures? I've got windows 98 and am on AOL. I've got Quick Books Pro > and a sore back too, but I don't believe they will help me. I did fly B24s > some (Not in combat) and kinda liked them. Do you suppose I'm being > punished? > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 03:06:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:06:21 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gary's Grin Message-ID: <002801c0fd1b$6e7ffdc0$dcd50b3f@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0FCE9.235F46C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was there on the ground and saw Mr. Moncur's smile. It was even bigger than the guys smile in the photo. In fact, they had to open the bombbay doors to get Gary out of the plane because that smile wouldnt fit thru the hatch. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0FCE9.235F46C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was there on the ground and = saw Mr.=20 Moncur's smile. It was even bigger than the guys smile in the photo. In = fact,=20 they had to open the bombbay doors to get Gary out of the plane because = that=20 smile wouldnt fit thru the hatch.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0FCE9.235F46C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 03:37:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:37:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] lost airman search Message-ID: <00dc01c0fd1f$c4f555c0$a309f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C0FCE5.1817D7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all that helped in this search, I extend the thanks of Inge Grondin, and myself. A lot of people went out of their way to help, and our fine friend and researcher, Lowell Getz, seems to have found the information we needed. Thanks Lowell, from everyone concerned. I will post more information about the upcoming ceremony to honor these fallen heroes, as soon as I can, when I am sure of the times and dates. I will put it on to the Heavy Bomber list, and a few other prominent places. Thanks again, everyone. Gordy. ****************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ****************************************** ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C0FCE5.1817D7E0 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="20 July 44.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="20 July 44.eml" Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd05.mail.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:13:57 -0400 Received: from dagny.life.uiuc.edu (dagny.life.uiuc.edu [130.126.49.71]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v79.20) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYD32-0624161342; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:13:42 -0400 Received: from [130.126.51.239] (remote09.life.uiuc.edu [130.126.51.239]) by dagny.life.uiuc.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5OKDfG00769; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:13:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:15:10 -0600 To: SENNERIN@aol.com From: Lowell Getz Subject: 20 July 44 Cc: B17banta@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Hi Inge. Success!!!! The plane that went down at Wohlsborn on 20 July 1944 was a B-17 from the 401st Bomb Group, 613rd Squadron. The aircraft number was 42-31037 ("Pistol Packin Mama"). I have talked to the pilot and he confirmed the incident. Three of the nine crewmen were killed by civilians after they landed on the ground (all parachuted to the ground). The specifics of how they were killed is not known. The three crewmen killed were: Navigator: 2Lt Owen H. Jorgensen Radio operator: T/Sgt John S. Spirodex Tail gunner: S/Sgt Donald H. Schmidli (there is a question regarding the spelling of his name--will try to clear it up) The rest of the crew was: Pilot: 2Lt Kenneth R. Murgatroyd Copilot: 2Lt James E. Pennoyer, Jr. Bombardier: 2Lt James K. Elderkin, Jr. Engineer: T/Sgt Stanley Lesser Ball turret: S/Sgt Jerome P. Robertson Waist gunner: S/Sgt Howard N. Magnuson If you wish, I can attempt to locate other crewmen and perhaps the families of those killed. The pilot had not been in touch with any of these families since 1945. Glad we got this settled. Will be in touch. Lowell ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01C0FCE5.1817D7E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 06:06:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:06:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gary's Grin Message-ID: We've heard of lots of things, people,stuff,bombs, liquids,& solids and even a cow which I strongly do not believe going out the Bomb Bay. This is the first time I've heard of something that couldn't make it. A SMILE of all things. It sure didn't happen on our crew. Anyone who would smile at our landings wasn't fit to fly in B17's Maybe B24's. They did have a spare bombay U No. Yee Gads, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 15:06:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:06:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: Really are great pics Gary. I have a question for those of you who have = taken rides such as Gary. During the ride do you get to go to each = station on the aircraft? Obviously probably not the left seat unless your = REALLY know someone or have been there before; what about the Tail Gunner = and Ball Turret positions? I noticed Gary didn't seem to have pics from = there. Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 17:02:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:02:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <14.16101c54.2868baae@aol.com> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 16:57:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:57:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <120.c90783.2868b97c@aol.com> Duke, When I got a ride in the B-17 we could gho to any place where we could get in - after 50 some years - the ball was too small, the passage way to the tail was out of the question, the left seat was handled by an expert - but being an ex-pilot I was allowed to stand right back of him and observe the whole operation. I went down in the nose for a little and cheched out the radio room on the way out. And he made a real smooth landing!! Clyde. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 19:22:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:22:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #313 - 13 msgs Message-ID: <7b.16a0fb7b.2868db4f@aol.com> Jack, I just downloaded the pictures from the web site: http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 19:27:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:27:38 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1, Gary's flight Message-ID: Jack, I may have sent you the wrong address, here is the correct one: http://www.xmission.com/~glm/Page.html I just checked it out. Bill D From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 21:46:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:46:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Gary's Grin In-Reply-To: <002801c0fd1b$6e7ffdc0$dcd50b3f@default> Message-ID: <3B3740B9.25662.1C1589@localhost> > I was there on the ground and saw Mr. Moncur's smile. It was even > bigger than the guys smile in the photo. In fact, they had to open the > bombbay doors to get Gary out of the plane because that smile wouldnt > fit thru the hatch. > Bill Hoyt, I was delighted to see you on the ground when I got off. The grin is starting to subside, but I've been talking about it all day at work, so it will last a while longer. Next time a B-17 comes, you're going up with me! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 21:46:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:46:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B3740B9.10746.1C154E@localhost> > Really are great pics Gary. I have a question for those of you who > have taken rides such as Gary. During the ride do you get to go to > each station on the aircraft? Obviously probably not the left seat > unless your REALLY know someone or have been there before; what about > the Tail Gunner and Ball Turret positions? I noticed Gary didn't seem > to have pics from there. Duke > Thanks, Duke.. The pics were taken with a Canon S100 Digital ELPH. It's a digital camera about the size of a pack of cigarettes. On Aluminum Overcast, we could not go in the tail or the ball-turrett. The ball was sealed and I believe it is only for show. We could stand behind the pilots, but not sit in the seat. We went back and forth from the navigators seat to the waist gunners positions. My brother recently flew on 909. I'll ask him if they were able to get in the tail. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jun 25 20:48:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:48:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk Contact Bryan McQuire Message-ID: Thank you all. I made contact With Brian Mcguire Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 26 02:47:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JamesWalsh) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walsh Message-ID: <002001c0fde1$f6b1f2e0$22dce341@jamela5> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0FDB8.0AE0FA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jay and Robin: Good to talk to you again today. If I get too pushy = let me know. Glad your trip to Chicago worked out so well. I can imagine = the hectic atmosphere of the place. It was bad enough 33 or more years = ago. Elaine came from a farming community town, Platte SD, population = barely 1,000. Even though I came from Mpls MN I was primarily an = outdoor kid. I got my first shotgun when I was 8 years old and my first = of several hunting dogs when I was 11. I spent most of my recreation = time either hunting or fishing until I got into the Army. After Elaine = and I were married in1945, I hunted in SD every year until I put my last = dog to sleep in1980. From 1968 when I retired to 1980, Ducy and I were = inseparable. We were in the field hunting or exercising her 365 days of = the year. I checked the phone book for sure and there is a Holiday = Express Inn in Fayetteville. It is just off the I-540 bypass on = the West side of Fayetteville. It's about 4 miles from BTV, but somewhat = complicated to get here. The place closest to us is a Sleep Inn. The = "Inn at the Mill" is a rather unusual but pretty expensive place. It is = about two blocks off I-540 on Johnson off ramp( the first off ramp after = you leave Springdale coming south) and it is very easy to get to Joyce = Blvd from there. Let me know if I can do anything for you. All for now. Jim and Elaine ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0FDB8.0AE0FA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Jay and Robin:  Good to talk to you again = today. If=20 I get too pushy let me know. Glad your trip to Chicago worked out so = well. I can=20 imagine the hectic atmosphere of the place. It was bad enough 33 or=20 more years ago. Elaine came from a farming community town, Platte = SD,=20 population barely 1,000. Even though I came from  Mpls MN I = was=20 primarily an outdoor kid. I got my first shotgun when I was 8 years = old and=20 my first of several hunting dogs when I was 11. I spent most of my=20 recreation time either hunting or fishing until I got into the = Army. After=20 Elaine and I were married in1945, I hunted in SD every year until I put = my last=20 dog to sleep in1980. From 1968 when I retired to 1980, Ducy and I were=20 inseparable. We were in the field hunting or exercising her 365 days of = the=20 year.
        =     I=20 checked the phone book for sure and there is a Holiday Express Inn in=20 Fayetteville. It is just = off the      =20  I-540 bypass on the West side of Fayetteville. It's about 4 miles = from=20 BTV, but somewhat complicated to get here. The place closest = to=20 us is a Sleep Inn. The "Inn at the Mill" is a rather = unusual but=20 pretty expensive place. It is about two blocks off I-540 = on=20 Johnson off ramp( the first off ramp after you leave Springdale coming=20 south) and it is very easy to get to Joyce Blvd  from there. = Let me=20 know if I can do anything for you.
        All for = now.  Jim=20 and Elaine
 
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0FDB8.0AE0FA60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jun 26 16:20:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:20:09 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <12b.928bbe.286a0229@aol.com> I spent a lot of time in the nose, my old station, feeling the old Norden and thinking back, but one of the things I didn't want to miss is the view from the top turret...I recall at 20,000 plus how I watched the contrails disappear behind the rudder...and, of course, how that rudder used to vibrate....whoa! Such a great aircraft! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 27 07:42:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:42:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <10c.1de2168.286ada72@cs.com> --part1_10c.1de2168.286ada72_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duke, When I flew in the Collings Foundation B17 several years ago all areas of the aircraft were accessible with the exception of the tail gunner, ball turret, copilot, and pilot positions. In my opinion the bombardier had the best view. Bombardiers who flew in combat may disagree with me. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_10c.1de2168.286ada72_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duke,
      When I flew in the Collings Foundation B17 several years ago all areas
of the aircraft were accessible with the exception of the tail gunner, ball
turret, copilot, and pilot positions.  In my opinion the bombardier had the
best view.  Bombardiers who flew in combat may disagree with me.    

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_10c.1de2168.286ada72_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 27 13:33:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:33:36 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <20010627123337.MCEH3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> John, you are correct. Bombardiers did have the best view and often it took every inch to locate the target. Regards,....Bill - Bombardier > Duke, > When I flew in the Collings Foundation B17 several years ago all areas > of the aircraft were accessible with the exception of the tail gunner, ball > turret, copilot, and pilot positions. In my opinion the bombardier had the > best view. Bombardiers who flew in combat may disagree with me. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jun 27 17:54:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:54:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #315 - 3 msgs Message-ID: --part1_b0.16848bbc.286b69c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes the bombardier position gave a good view of everything coming at you. Sometimes it was more than wished for. I was a toggelier and the worst part of a mission was getting into formation and pulling the bomb pins. You didn't know what was going on out side from the bomb bay. I often wondered how the pilot knew just when and how to get into formation. Planes were over us , next to us and under us. God bless those pilots. I can vividly remember seeing the flak ahead and knowing you were next. Also with the nose guns you had to be very careful when and where you fired because of our own planes. The window of opportunity was very limited. But at times it was a real view like you were looking down from on high. Good talk guys. Bob Morris --part1_b0.16848bbc.286b69c8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes the bombardier position gave a good view of everything coming at you.
Sometimes it was more than wished for. I was a toggelier and the worst part
of a mission was getting into formation and pulling the bomb pins. You didn't
know what was going on out side from the bomb bay.  I often wondered how the
pilot knew just when and how to get into formation. Planes were over us ,
next to us and under us. God bless those pilots.
I can vividly remember seeing the flak ahead and knowing you were next. Also
with the nose guns you had to be very careful when and where you fired
because of our own planes. The window of opportunity was very limited.  But
at times it was a real view like you were looking down from on high. Good
talk guys.
Bob Morris --part1_b0.16848bbc.286b69c8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 28 04:33:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:33:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Grins Message-ID: <002a01c0ff83$1d183be0$3bd50b3f@default> What kind of view do you have from the navigators desk and did the navigator spend a lot of time looking around the bombardier for landmarks? I couldnt fly when the Aluminum Overcast came to Salt Lake. I wanted more than anything to sit between those four engines and hear them sing and hear something close to what my dad and you guys heard. I thought at least I would do the climb thru tour, then I could sit at the nav desk, but I got there early morning and they werent gonna let us thru until late afternoon and if Id hung around any longer watching that plane take off and land without me I was gonna cry. I tried to imagine what it must have been like with 20 or 30 planes starting up and taxiing around and taking off. ( Do you think a plane full of s**t eatin grins weighs the same as a full bomb load? ) Thanks Bill Hoyt . From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 28 07:05:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 02:05:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #315 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <42.16c43cd0.286c2335@cs.com> --part1_42.16c43cd0.286c2335_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill and Bob, I am certain that the post war view I experienced in the bombardier's position was considerably different from what you experienced during WWII. My view was similar, but my risk was several notches lower. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_42.16c43cd0.286c2335_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill and Bob,

      I am certain that the post war view I experienced in the bombardier's
position was considerably different from what you experienced during WWII.  
My view was similar, but my risk was several notches lower.

Best Wishes,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_42.16c43cd0.286c2335_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 28 13:03:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:03:18 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Grins Message-ID: <20010628120318.QZQI13460.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, the navigator did spend time looking around the bombardier because of his limited visibility. However, on our crew I ( as a bombardier ) did VFR navigation to and from the target and called out the check points to our navigator. Both the navigator and I looked for the target once we turned on the IP. We worked as a team all the way. Our navigator would also call for the oxygen checks while I was busy on the bomb run.....Bill Runnels > What kind of view do you have from the navigators desk and > did the navigator spend a lot of time looking around the bombardier for > landmarks? > > > . > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 28 13:11:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:11:14 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #315 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <20010628121114.BEQJ3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> John, the risk factor was different but the view the same. We had plenty of time en-route to the target and return to marvel at the view of the formation, clouds and ground when clear weather prevailed......Bill > Bill and Bob, > > I am certain that the post war view I experienced in the bombardier's > position was considerably different from what you experienced during WWII. > My view was similar, but my risk was several notches lower. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jun 28 15:43:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:43:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Grins Message-ID: <60.1049c47f.286c9c93@aol.com> It always was a spectacular view, even back in Bombardier School flying AT-11s. They had a strict rule in those small aircraft...no settin' up there on take off and landings. The B-17 was different...plenty of room up there (not now, of course!) and the view was magnificent...you could hear that melodic throb of the engines and keep an eye on them, also. A bit hairy in bomb-run close formation, especially when you could see the tail gunner in the plane in front of you crossing himself. Twice were hit in the nose, once disabling our navigator and the second time shattering the chin turret sight. That'll keep you on the edge of your seat! Cheers, Bob Hand, (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 29 06:12:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Hoyt) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:12:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins Message-ID: <008d01c1005a$1c662f40$0fd90b3f@default> Bill Runnels, in your reply you mentioned 'teamwork'. "We worked as a team all the way". What a great thing that is to share-being a paart of a team. Knowing that you can count on someone and trying your best to be someone who can be counted on. Thank you Gentlemen Bill Hoyt (Otis A Hoyt 360nav) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 29 20:23:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Guy) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:23:36 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello All Message-ID: Hello All I have been stationed at RAF Molesworth for the last 2 1/2 years, and have been past the church in Old Weston - must be a couple hundred times. Well, in the winter - before all the brush grows up over it, from the B660 you can see an old building and a few old quansit(?) huts. Last weekend I went back their (despite the signs to stay out) to take a few pics because it looked as if this was where the barracks and chow hall must have been (got some great snaps if anyones intrested). Anyway, I was convinced that this was the place of the domestic quarters - till I came across an areial photo with a super-imposed map showing the domestic area towards the village of Molesworth - the complete opposite direction. Can anyone shed any light on this? Cheers Guy >From: "Bill Hoyt" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:12:33 -0600 > >Bill Runnels, in your reply you mentioned 'teamwork'. "We worked as a team >all the way". What a great thing that is >to share-being a paart of a team. Knowing that you can count on someone and >trying your best to be someone who can be counted on. > >Thank you Gentlemen > Bill Hoyt (Otis A Hoyt 360nav) > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jun 29 22:52:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:52:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello All In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B3C962F.6941.94182A@localhost> > from the B660 you can see an old building and a few old quansit(?) > huts. Last weekend I went back their (despite the signs to stay out) > to take a few pics because it looked as if this was where the barracks > and chow hall must have been (got some great snaps if anyones > intrested). Anyway, I was convinced that this was the place of the > domestic quarters - till I came across an areial photo with a > super-imposed map showing the domestic area towards the village of > Molesworth - the complete opposite direction. > Can anyone shed any light on this? > William, If you're talking about the picture you sent me last week, Robin Beeby says, "I have had a look at these photos, and can confirm that they are of the buildings occupying the 444th sub depot and medical staff area on the RAF map at site seven at Molesworth. This is on the outskirts of Old Weston, just outside the new main gates." I plan to add them to the web page. For now the photos are here: http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/m1.jpg http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/m2.jpg http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/m3.jpg - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 02:14:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:14:08 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins Message-ID: <20010630011408.BUVU1777.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill, " teamwork " was key to the success of a B-17 crew.We all had important jobs to do and we did them. If a crew had a member that didn't fit the mold,you got rid of them. We functioned as a unit in all that we did. I can tell you that it was comforting to know that you had nine other dependable guys on-board with you on a given mission.....Bill Runnels > Bill Runnels, in your reply you mentioned 'teamwork'. "We worked as a team > all the way". What a great thing that is > to share-being a paart of a team. Knowing that you can count on someone and > trying your best to be someone who can be counted on. > > Thank you Gentlemen > Bill Hoyt (Otis A Hoyt 360nav) > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 06:28:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:28:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins Message-ID: <77.16dfb392.286ebd74@aol.com> bill we were trained as team players as we followed the disney donald duck characters in many screened ,during training and getting in lines for supplies etc. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 06:58:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:58:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins Message-ID: <94.162b8897.286ec48b@cs.com> --part1_94.162b8897.286ec48b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, Sometimes I am not too certain where you are going with your comments. You may have concerns about the training you received those many decades ago. However, you must keep in mind that your generation soundly defeated regimes that were quite willing to plunge the world into a new Dark Age. Of this you can be proud. Those of us who follow will always keep this in mind. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_94.162b8897.286ec48b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,

      Sometimes I am not too certain where you are going with your comments.
 You may have concerns about the training you received those many decades
ago.  However, you must keep in mind that your generation soundly defeated
regimes that were quite willing to plunge the world into a new Dark Age.  Of
this you can be proud.  Those of us who follow will always keep this in mind.

Best Wishes,
  
John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_94.162b8897.286ec48b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 12:38:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:38:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out ARC-5 Radio Equipment from B-17 Bomber by Al Klase, N3FRQ Message-ID: <38.18490e48.286f1441@aol.com> --part1_38.18490e48.286f1441_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: ARC-5 Radio Equipment from B-17 Bomber by Al Klase, N3FRQ --part1_38.18490e48.286f1441_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: ARC-5 Radio Equipment from B-17 Bomber by Al Klase, N3FRQ --part1_38.18490e48.286f1441_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 12:51:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:51:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Vignettes of a B-17 Combat Crew Message-ID: <110.1b4e1ad.286f173d@aol.com> --part1_110.1b4e1ad.286f173d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Vignettes of a B-17 Combat Crew --part1_110.1b4e1ad.286f173d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Vignettes of a B-17 Combat Crew --part1_110.1b4e1ad.286f173d_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 13:06:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:06:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out HeavyBombers: Eighth Air Force - England Message-ID: <44.f9c2397.286f1aaa@aol.com> --part1_44.f9c2397.286f1aaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: HeavyBombers: Eighth Air Force - England --part1_44.f9c2397.286f1aaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: HeavyBombers: Eighth Air Force - England --part1_44.f9c2397.286f1aaa_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 13:10:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:10:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Heavy Bombers: 303rd Bomb Group Message-ID: <119.1073a9b.286f1bc1@aol.com> --part1_119.1073a9b.286f1bc1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Heavy Bombers: 303rd Bomb Group --part1_119.1073a9b.286f1bc1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Heavy Bombers: 303rd Bomb Group --part1_119.1073a9b.286f1bc1_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 13:22:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:22:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Heavy Bombers: Flying Fortresses Restored to Flying status Message-ID: <18.ea70b40.286f1e81@aol.com> --part1_18.ea70b40.286f1e81_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Heavy Bombers: Flying Fortresses Restored to Flying status --part1_18.ea70b40.286f1e81_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Heavy Bombers: Flying Fortresses Restored to Flying status --part1_18.ea70b40.286f1e81_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 18:38:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:38:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos Message-ID: <002101c1018b$81ffee40$56bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C10161.9824F960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 2 From: "Gary Moncur" =20 William.....Robin Beeby says...... the buildings occupying the 444th sub = depot=20 and medical staff area on the RAF map at site seven at=20 Molesworth. This is on the outskirts of Old Weston, just=20 outside the new main gates." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'm confused. What part of 444th Sub-depot was on site seven. Most of = the personell working in A/C supply were in my barracks on site #1. The = road to Old Weston ran east and west past our site .[ The directions I = think are right --to me the sun came up in the north at site one.] West = down the road was the hospital?? on on the left side and the mess hall = farther on on the right side [west]. FROM THE DIGGIN'S OF THE=20 MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. M. J. PAULK 205 W 12TH ST. WOOD RIVER, NE. 68883-9164 308-583-2583 ***************** EVERY ONE LIKES TO SEE ME! SOME ON MY ARRIVAL! MOST ON MY DEPARTURE!! ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C10161.9824F960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Message: 2
 From: "Gary = Moncur"=20 <glm@303rdBGA.com>
 
Wi= lliam.....Robin=20 Beeby says...... the buildings occupying the 444th sub = depot 
and=20 medical staff area on the RAF map at site seven = at 
Molesworth. =20 This is on the outskirts of Old Weston, just 
outside the new = main=20 gates."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= +++++++++
I'm confused. What part of 444th Sub-depot was on site seven. = Most of=20 the personell working in A/C supply were in my barracks on = site #1.=20 The road to Old Weston ran east and west past our site .[ The directions = I think=20 are right --to me the sun came up in the north at site one.] West down = the road=20 was the hospital?? on on the left side and the mess hall farther on on = the right=20 side [west].
 
FROM THE DIGGIN'S OF THE=20
          MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
        a. k. a. M. J.=20 PAULK
           = 205 W 12TH=20 ST.
WOOD RIVER, NE.=20 68883-9164
          = ;  =20 308-583-2583
         &nb= sp;  =20 *****************
EVERY ONE LIKES TO SEE ME!
SOME ON MY = ARRIVAL!
MOST=20 ON MY DEPARTURE!!
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C10161.9824F960-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 18:28:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:28:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #318 - 10 msgs Message-ID: <87.c6ecf87.286f6651@aol.com> --part1_87.c6ecf87.286f6651_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply to William Guy The area you took the photos from were always outside the main base perimeter - but they housed the 444th Sub Depot (the engineers) and the 3rd station complement. This was designated site 1 on the original US base map, and site 7 on the 1945 RAF maps. If you are still based in England and are interested, I could show you more of the original sites that still exist. I live in Kettering. You can contact me via email at RJBeeby@AOL.com. regards Robin Beeby (UK contact for 303rd BGA) --part1_87.c6ecf87.286f6651_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply to William Guy

The area you took the photos from were always outside the main base perimeter
- but they housed the 444th Sub Depot  (the engineers) and the 3rd station
complement.  This was designated site 1 on the original US base map, and site
7 on the 1945 RAF maps.    

If you are still based in England and are interested, I could show you more
of the original sites that still exist.   I live in Kettering.  You can
contact me via email at RJBeeby@AOL.com.

regards

Robin Beeby (UK contact for 303rd BGA)


--part1_87.c6ecf87.286f6651_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 18:34:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:34:57 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Red Cross Club, NAAFI< etc. In-Reply-To: <77.16dfb392.286ebd74@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010630073457.008beb20@ilhawaii.net> Among things I remember doing at Molesworth were going to the movies, going to the Red Cross Club and visiting the NAAFI canteen. Does anyone remember where these facilities were located on the base, or have a map showing where they were? The 358th was located on the opposite side of the field from the other squadrons, and I don't remember how much of a walk it was to get to things. I particularly remember the NAAFI canteen because most of our crew were having coffee there when the CQ came through looking for crews to fly a mission. This was unusual because they usually woke us up at three or four o'clock in the morning for missions. We had 34 in and this sounded like a quick one so we jumped at the chance. It turned out to be the mission to Kiel/Hamburg where we got hit by heavy flak and ME-262 jets. Our co-pilot was off courting his English girl friend, so Major Shumake flew in his seat. It was an exciting finish to our tour. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jun 30 21:44:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:44:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] grins Message-ID: <66.10f14fe5.286f944a@aol.com> thanks. spec