From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 1 20:55:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:55:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: <75.16f7c07e.2870da25@aol.com> --part1_75.16f7c07e.2870da25_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To John Jenkins, As a former bombardier with the 360th squadron, I agree that the bombardier had the best view and I enjoyed that part, however, if you check statistics, you will find, I believe, that casualities were highest among bombardiers and tail gunners. Bob Finley --part1_75.16f7c07e.2870da25_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To John Jenkins,  As a former bombardier with the 360th squadron, I agree
that the bombardier had the best view and I enjoyed that part, however, if
you check statistics,  you will find, I believe, that casualities were
highest among bombardiers and tail gunners.
                                                                             
Bob Finley    --part1_75.16f7c07e.2870da25_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 1 22:05:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:05:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Site 1 Site 7 Message-ID: <001301c10271$9e871f20$55bb9ace@mjpmtman> Thank you Mr. Beebe--I thought maybe I had lost my marbles . M. J. PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jul 1 23:45:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 18:45:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Flight Message-ID: --part1_b9.1019e794.28710211_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Finley, My perspective of the bombardier's view was limited to what I saw many decades after WWII was over. I am certain that in combat the view, and the risk associated with it, was not pleasant. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_b9.1019e794.28710211_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Finley,

      My perspective of the bombardier's view was limited to what I saw many
decades after WWII was over.  I am certain that in combat the view, and the
risk associated with it, was not pleasant.

Best Wishes,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_b9.1019e794.28710211_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 2 14:14:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:14:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <001b01c102f8$e8b36360$4d3f22d1@billowen> Bob Finley, I posted this previously. You may have missed it so here it is again. Regards, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Owen" To: Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: 303rd BG-KIA Untitled Seeing the comments and questions about relative safety of the different crew positions aroused my curiousity. So I went through the entire personnel list from A to Z and wrote down the date of each man Killed In Action. I was pretty surprised that the numbers are so close. Seems that the Pilot-Copilot positions were most vulnerable (no doubt due to the front end attacks by fighters). The waist gunners were the safest since most attacks were from the front or rear and they were not directly exposed to either. It might be interesting to break it down month by month but I didn't take time to do that. For statistical purposes I put the Togliers in with the Bombardiers. 303rd BG-KIA KIA %of 1942 1943 1944 1945 Totals Total Pilot-Copilot 5 58 98 25 186 14.20 Bombardier 2 25(*26) 39(*43) 4(*8) 70(*79) 12.06 Navigator 2 21 45 11 79 12.06 Engineer 2 22 44 13 81 12.37 Radio 2 25 47 11 85 12.97 Waist Gun 6 57 64 7 134 10.23 Ball Turret 3 23 42 9 77 11.76 Tail Gunner 2 27 38 12 79 12.06 S/Jam ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 YRC ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 Photo 0 3 0 0 3 0.46 Toglier 0 (1) (4) (4) (9) 611 ? 0 0 3 0 3 0.46 612 ? 0 0 3 0 3 0.46 V/INTR ? 0 0 0 1 1 0.15 Stat/O ? 0 0 1 0 1 0.15 Observer 0 2 0 0 2 0.31 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----- -- TOTALS: 24 264 428 99 815 100.00 (* Toglier added to Bombardier total - same position?) The Pilot-Copilot positions were combined for number of KIA's and half that number used to determine % KIA. Waist gunners were done the same way. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 2 17:46:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:46:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] KIA Message-ID: <9d.17a90025.2871ff6d@aol.com> --part1_9d.17a90025.2871ff6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good coments on caualties for bombardiers/tail gunners. I to was hit in the chest by a 20mm projectile being a toggelier. Thank GOD the thing didn't explode. To this day I'm very thankful that purhaps saw dust was in the projectile and not powder. (I still thank the sabatours if they were responsible for my not being killed). I was however knocked off the bombardiers seat and slammed against the side of the plane, knocked out and brusied. Quick thinking by my Nav. saved my life. He put my oxygen mask back on and when I came too I tried to get back to my guns. He then restrained me until I came back to reality. The projectile came from a 262 jet. I still have the projectile and it reminds me how lucky I was, --part1_9d.17a90025.2871ff6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good coments on caualties for bombardiers/tail gunners. I to was hit in the
chest by a 20mm projectile being a toggelier. Thank GOD the thing didn't
explode. To this day I'm very thankful that purhaps saw dust was in the
projectile and not powder. (I still thank the sabatours if they were
responsible for my not being killed). I was however knocked off the
bombardiers seat and slammed against the side of the plane, knocked out and
brusied. Quick thinking by my Nav. saved my life. He put my oxygen mask back
on and when I came too I tried to get back to my guns. He then restrained me
until I came back to reality. The projectile came from a 262 jet. I still
have the projectile and it reminds me how lucky I was, --part1_9d.17a90025.2871ff6d_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jul 2 19:53:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:53:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <2d.de16c43.28721d2c@aol.com> Bill Owen & Bob Finley, I want to thank you fellows for running the report on the number and percentages of the positions on the crews that were KIA. I have alway maintained the Ball turret was probably the safest position on the crew but never did any extensive research like you did. I would like you to be aware of a couple of things and give me your opinion on what you think about my thoughts. (1) There always was two pilots so I find no argument with your methods. But they would always (nearly) be the last ones to bail out or maybe try to land the crippled bird after bailing the crew out. hence exposed to a bit more danger and/or exposed longer. (2) In mid 1944 one waist gunner was removed so we only had one waist gunner during the last half, more or less, of 1944. Would this make your percentage two low when you assumed 2 waist gunners for the entire period? Thanks Men Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 01:38:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 18:38:53 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Denver visit References: <20010702160437.247E153586@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B41141C.46AA87E5@uswest.net> I just got back from seeing Aluminum Overcast at a suburban Denver airport (Jefferson County), an experience I thoroughly enjoyed in spite of not being able to either fly or take the ground tour. Spent an awful lot of time walking around, poking my head into whatever holes they would let me, and talking with some fascinating people. A few observations and questions, if I may: 1. I don't know if it's common, but the flights were booked up in advance here and are already sold out at its next stop in Colorado Springs (I might have gone if I could have flown). So Observation #1 is, if you want to fly, plan ahead and shop early! 2. The local press botched the story, so I showed up today for a ground tour only to find out that they ended yesterday. I was able to walk around as much as I wanted, though. Hence, Observation #2 - don't trust your news sources. Find out schedules for yourself! 3. Observation 3 - I was struck by how quiet the engines were. 150 feet behind the plane it was easy to converse in normal tones. I even asked the ground crew chief if they were muffled for civilian use and he said they weren't. They were definitely powerful, though, because Observation 4 is the amount of prop wash I felt. Since I couldn't fly, I didn't get Gary's Grin, but driving home, I noticed in the rear-view mirror that my hair was standing up. So I had a little grin of my own, knowing that it was courtesy four Cyclones of the Wright variety, rather than the everyday type I grew up with in Kansas. Now for some questions. A. Was the Cheyenne turret in the tail of Gs powered similarly to the ball? In other words, did the gunner operate it with levers instead of swinging flexible guns like they had on the F models. If that's the case, was the gunner inside the turret and moving with it, or was it turning independently of him? B. This plane, a G-model, had what seemed to be a fairly decent window around the waist guns. When I spoke with one of the crew, he told me that the Fs were wide-open to the elements with no protection for the gunners other than a deflector slightly ahead of the window to direct the blast of air away from the opening? I can't say that I remember seeing any of these deflectors on photos of Fs, although I wasn't looking for them, either. Anybody have any info? When the Overcast took off (after an hour's weather delay - crosswinds), the pilot circled the field and made a pass down the runway. As he flew by, he tipped the right wing in a salute to the crowd. I was struck with how much more sleek and graceful the plane was in flight than what I had imagined. It was quite a sight. A big tip of my wing to Boeing and to all you who flew, maintained and supplied the Fortresses and the wonderful job you did. Mike McClanahan PS Gary, I think the altitude and temperature concerns expressed at SLC were bogus. Jeffco is 5670' and it was 95 today and they had no problems. I think they just wanted to avoid the SLC traffic (and maybe the fees). They also have a 9000' runway at Jeffo, but didn't seem to need all of it. The 17 lifted off about the same spot as the bizjets. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 02:35:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:35:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aluminum Overcast Denver visit Message-ID: <119.112c346.28727b45@aol.com> Mike, The tail guns on the F & G models were not in a turret. They were flexible guns and the tail gunner had the but ends in his hands. The two guns were fastened together and fired together. If the gunner raised the but up the muzzles moved down just like the waist guns did. There was only one waist gun on each side. I do not remember any different windows on the waist guns between the F and the Gs. There was some difference in some of the older models and some models had the waist guns staggered as I remember but I don't remember which ones had that and which ones didn't. I hope you get a better answer from some of the gunners. Sorry you didn't get a ride on it. I used to work on the one the Confederate Air Force has in Mesa Arizona every Saturday. They took it up for a test flight there once and offered me a ride to go with them. I turned them down. I used to think I would probably die in one and I didn't. I didn't want to give fate another chance I might have gone if they would have said, You can do the flying, but they didn't. So I didn't. I still wouldn't. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 06:20:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (robert w. hanson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 23:20:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Loose Ends-I Message-ID: <000c01c1037f$e6375380$5e8e0b3f@9exzq> Bill Heller: I was digging around in my WWII files and I came across some forms signed off by you showing my combat flight time from March through November 1944 and I was reminded that I had seen a message from you on the forum indicating you had worked for TWA and Lufthansa years ago. That message had raised my curiosity but I never followed up. I worked for Hughes Aircraft Co. for many years in LA and Tucson. While in LA I learned that Hughes had the reputation as the most progressive aerospace company in LA. I've often wondered if TWA was similarly managed. Your Lufthansa connection made me wonder if you were checked out on 707's in Tucson. When Lufthansa bought their first 707's their pilots were trained here in Tucson. and got a lot publicity. There was a restaurant called Lil Abner's Steak House northwest of Tucson where the student-pilots and their instructors spent a lot of time on weekends. The Germans seemed to like the steaks, the cowboy atmosphere and the country music. The only option you had there when you ordered dinner was, "How do you want your steak?" Were you a part of that? There are still hundreds of German names carved in the tablels and written on the walls. This might not be the place for this type of message but I don't have an email address for you and lately there has been a lot of room on the forum, so I thought I'd take a chance. Cheers Yank, Bob Hanson From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 14:05:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:05:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA References: <2d.de16c43.28721d2c@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c103c0$d8d49860$1d3f22d1@billowen> Jack, you brought up a couple of good points. I'm sure you are probably right on both. I'm sure that some pilots-copilots probably were lost by staying with the plane too long out of necessity. The waist gunners percentage should be somewhat higher also. When I made this study I wasn't aware that the crews had cut back to one waist gunner late into the war. That seems like an odd thing to do...I mean if you needed a waist gunner at all seems to me you would need both of them. Best Wishes, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > Bill Owen & Bob Finley, > I want to thank you fellows for running the report on the number and > percentages of the positions on the crews that were KIA. I have alway > maintained the Ball turret was probably the safest position on the crew but > never did any extensive research like you did. > > I would like you to be aware of a couple of things and give me your > opinion on what you think about my thoughts. (1) There always was two pilots > so I find no argument with your methods. But they would always (nearly) be > the last ones to bail out or maybe try to land the crippled bird after > bailing the crew out. hence exposed to a bit more danger and/or exposed > longer. (2) In mid 1944 one waist gunner was removed so we only had one > waist gunner during the last half, more or less, of 1944. Would this make > your percentage two low when you assumed 2 waist gunners for the entire > period? Thanks Men > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 14:50:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:50:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, the nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd because they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they had a tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 miles or so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock where the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half way between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything with a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. Even when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the same time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a pilot who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down by anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my first mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes to anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the area. There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions who's gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy losses from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped one waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just removed him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 15:42:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:42:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA References: Message-ID: <003a01c103ce$75346980$2d09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Jack, Heck of a nice reply to this question. I have read little snippets of why the second gunner was dropped, but you combined everything in a nutshell. I know what you mean about shooting at 90 degrees. Every tried shooting a gopher from a moving truck, heading down the road at even 30 miles an hour? It's impossible. I can imagine it at five times that speed. Some of the gunners must have got the knack of it though, didn't they? My Dad was a tailgunner, and he told me a bit about leading the fighters. Lots of times they would come from very high, or from below, to avoid the tail guns. That's when the ball turret really came into play. When the two gunners could work together, on an experienced crew, they could assist each other by telling the other guy exactly what the fighter was doing, and where he was heading, so the other guys guns would be ready in the brief one or two seconds he had to fire. Dad said he would be able to lead the fighter before he even saw it, if someone else knew what they were doing, and worked as a team. For instance, if the fighter was coming from 7 o'clock low, and unseen from the tail, the BTG would call him out, and the tail would have his guns pointed and ready. As soon as the guns in the ball stopped, Dad would fire, and the German would fly right through a hail of bullets, as he swooped up and away to avoid the ball and tail guns. As often as not, though, the bullets would bounce off the armor on the bottom of the fighter. If the fighter was close enough, would the bullets penetrate the armor? Anyone have experience in that regard? Teamwork. Gordy. ****************************************** "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 gordy@saltspring.com ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, the > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd because > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they had a > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 miles or > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock where > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half way > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything with > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. Even > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the same > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a pilot > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down by > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my first > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes to > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the area. > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions who's > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy losses > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped one > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just removed > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 18:41:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:41:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA References: Message-ID: <3B4203C1.79297A75@attglobal.net> A waist gunner was removed so they could send him to the infantry where he was needed once the Battle of the Bulge cost so much. Anonymous Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, the > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd because > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they had a > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 miles or > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock where > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half way > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything with > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. Even > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the same > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a pilot > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down by > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my first > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes to > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the area. > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions who's > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy losses > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped one > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just removed > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 16:29:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:29:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy 4th of July Message-ID: <11f.1243045.28733ebc@aol.com> --part1_11f.1243045.28733ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy 4th of July to all and a big THANK YOU to all the vets. Heidi Girman --part1_11f.1243045.28733ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy 4th of July to all and a big THANK YOU to all the vets.

Heidi Girman --part1_11f.1243045.28733ebc_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 17:06:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:06:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA References: Message-ID: <001101c103da$14e21800$333f22d1@billowen> Jack, thanks for the great reply. You have enlightened me considerably about the different gun positions. That is good info to know. Best, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, the > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd because > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they had a > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 miles or > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock where > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half way > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything with > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. Even > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the same > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a pilot > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down by > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my first > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes to > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the area. > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions who's > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy losses > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped one > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just removed > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 19:43:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:43:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Gordy: I've got to reply to your question about armor on Luftwaffe fighters. As I've mentioned before to you, I know a pilot, Oskar Bosch, who was with VI.(Sturm)/JG 3, who flew both ME 109s and FW 190s, but at different times during the war. Oskar said that .50s would not penetrate the armor underneath his seat on his FW 190 unless he was very close to the origin of the shot and that the shot hit the armor at a perpendicular angle. If these two conditions were not met, then the shot would graze of the armor plate, but, as he put it, "leave your ass really sore." What Oskar loved most about his FW 190s was, in his own words, "that big life-saving radial engine." His Sturmstaffel almost always attacked from the rear. He said they would try to knock out the tail gunner first, then the ball gunner, with the 20 and 30 mm cannons while sitting out of range of our .50s. After those positions were neutralized (he was always very careful not to say "killed"), then they would close at an angle to the rear of the plane and slightly above the plane to avoid the waist guns. As they closed in on the Forts, he said they would hunker down in the cockpit and try to make themselves as small as possible. If the tail or waist was still operational, that big radial would take the shots. He said those radials saved his life on several occasions. Then they would aim at where the fuselage met the wing where the main fuel cells were located. He also said on one sweep, his radial was hit and blew a cylinder head completely off, but the engine kept turning and he made it back to Käten. Oskar was with a Sturmstaffel, a specially equipped "hunter/killer" unit that went after the bombers. Their tactics differed from those used by other units and their tactics differed greatly from the beginning of the war to the end. When he was flying 109s early in 1943, he said they attacked head on because our Forts didn't have the Bendix chin turrets as the later G models had. He also said they were quite "sensitive" to the firepower of a B-17 and wanted to minimize the amount of time exposed to our guns. This was when Oskar was flying for 301/JG 3 "Udet." Later in the war with 190s and in the Sturmstaffel, their tactics changed because of experience and their mission of knocking down bombers. With a head on attack, closure rates were in excess of 500 mph, making only short bursts possible which were not effective in downing the sturdy 17s. Oskar's Sturmstaffel experiences were in mid 44 to early 45, before being transfered to defense missions around Berlin. Hope this answered your question. Kevin >From: "Gordon Alton" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:42:30 -0700 > >Hi Jack, > Heck of a nice reply to this question. I have read little snippets of >why the second gunner was dropped, but you combined everything in a >nutshell. I know what you mean about shooting at 90 degrees. Every tried >shooting a gopher from a moving truck, heading down the road at even 30 >miles an hour? It's impossible. I can imagine it at five times that speed. >Some of the gunners must have got the knack of it though, didn't they? > My Dad was a tailgunner, and he told me a bit about leading the >fighters. Lots of times they would come from very high, or from below, to >avoid the tail guns. That's when the ball turret really came into play. >When >the two gunners could work together, on an experienced crew, they could >assist each other by telling the other guy exactly what the fighter was >doing, and where he was heading, so the other guys guns would be ready in >the brief one or two seconds he had to fire. Dad said he would be able to >lead the fighter before he even saw it, if someone else knew what they were >doing, and worked as a team. For instance, if the fighter was coming from 7 >o'clock low, and unseen from the tail, the BTG would call him out, and the >tail would have his guns pointed and ready. As soon as the guns in the ball >stopped, Dad would fire, and the German would fly right through a hail of >bullets, as he swooped up and away to avoid the ball and tail guns. > As often as not, though, the bullets would bounce off the armor on the >bottom of the fighter. If the fighter was close enough, would the bullets >penetrate the armor? Anyone have experience in that regard? >Teamwork. >Gordy. > >****************************************** >"Our freedom is not free. Please >remember those who fought to keep it." >Gordon L. Alton >129 Mariko Place >Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 >ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 >gordy@saltspring.com >****************************************** > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:50 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > > > > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, >the > > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd >because > > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they >had a > > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 >miles >or > > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock >where > > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half >way > > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything >with > > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so > > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. >Even > > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the >same > > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a >pilot > > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down >by > > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my >first > > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes >to > > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the >area. > > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions >who's > > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy >losses > > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped >one > > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just >removed > > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > > Best Wishes, > > Jack Rencher > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 19:51:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:51:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Message-ID: They also did away with radio operators in some ships in some groups in mid and late 44. Here are the MACR for six Forts from the 91st BG(H), 324th BS, lost 16.8.44, enroute to the Seibel Aircraft works at Halle. Note, no Radio Operators were on board. MISSING AIR CREW REPORT 16 AUGUST 1944 (1) B-17 43-3800 91STBG 322NDBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED NEAR LEHNA MACR 8181 (P) 2ND LT. RESSE W. LINDSEY KIA ROCKY RIVER, OH (CP) 2ND LT. ALBERT J PERRY KIA LaGRANGE, GA (N) 2ND LT. CLAYTON B. BAUGH KIA GROVE HILL, AL (B) 2ND LT. LEE G. BRATCHER KIA HILLSBORO, TX (TT) SGT. JOHN C. CRABB KIA OKLHMA CITY, OK (R) (BT) SGT. JOHN V. BUXTON KIA MIAMI, FL (RW) SGT. ROBERT L. SCHRECENGOST KIA BEAVER FLLS, PA (LW) SGT. CLEO H. GATES KIA TYLER, TX (TG) SGT. LEWIS C. MORGAN POW ELKHART, KS (2) B-17 44-6126 91STBG 322NDBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED AT CHARTES MACR 8185 (P) 1ST LT. JOHN L. LESLIE KIA NORBERTT, PA (CP) 2ND LT. JOHN E. SAVAGE KIA TURLOCK, CA (N) 2ND LT. STANLEY KOSS KIA BROOKLYN, NY (B) F/O EARL W. DONLEY KIA ELIZABETHTN, PA (TT) T/SGT. JOSEPH H. GODFREY POW LONGVIEW, TX (R) (BT) S/SGT. IVAN F. DOYLE POW CURTIS, NE (RW) T/SGT. JAMES I. MIDDLETON POW HENDERSON, KY (LW) S/SGT. DOUGLAS BUNTIN KIA LONGBEACH, CA (TG) S/SGT. LOUIS KOS KIA ERIE, PA (3) B-17 TXS CHBBY-THE J’VLL JKR 42-31634 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED AT KITCHENBERG MACR 8184 (P) 1ST LT. HALSTEAD SHERRIL KIA FLUSHING, NY (CP) 2ND LT. FRANK J. GILLIGAN KIA KENMORE, (N) 2ND LT. WILLIAM M. PORTER POW SAN ANTONIO, TX (B) 2ND LT. NICHOLAS J. WEBER POW ALLISON, PA (TT) SGT. VERNON E. BAUERLING KIA LITTLETOWN, PA (R) (BT) S/SGT. ENRIQUE T. PEREZ KIA BLOWETT, TX (RW) S/SGT. JOSEPH R. MORRISON KIA FORT WAYNE, IN (LW) RICHARD J. MUNKWITZ POW DETROIT, MI (TG) SGT. CHESTER W. MIS POW LA SOLLO, IL (4) B-17 43-38012 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED AT WITZENHAUSEN MACR 8180 (P) 2ND LT. VINCENT A. FONKE POW BREESE, IL (CP) 2ND LT. FRED W. VAN SLANT POW OAKLAND, CA (N) 2ND LT. ROBERT W. SIMCOCK, JR. POW BURLINGAME, CA (B) 2ND LT. HERBERT CARLSON POW BROOKLYN, NY (TT) S/SGT. RAYMOND V. PRANGE POW PORTLAND, OR (R) (BT) SGT. CHARLES S. BRUDO POW SEATTLE, WA (RW) S/SGT. WENDELL O. MEENACH POW INDIANPOLS, IN (LW) SGT. WILLIAM J. WEAVER POW CONNERSVILLE, IN (TG) SGT. WILLARD M. HOLDEN KIA SABIN, MN (5) B-17 LASSIE COMING HOME 42-31673 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED AT DEIDERODE MACR 8183 (P) 2ND LT. LEONARD F. FIGIE POW (CP) 2ND LT. DALE W. WHITSON KIA (N) 2ND LT. FREDERICK SEIBEL KIA (B) (TT) T/SGT. WALTER L. CARPENTER POW (R) (BT) SGT. FREDERICK D. BALDWIN KIA (RW) SGT. EDMUND J. MIKOLAITUS KIA (LW) S/SGT. WALTER SALO POW (TG) SGT. JOHN F. WALLASZEK POW (NG) S/SGT. HARLON B. WILLIAMS POW (6) B-17 BOSTON BOMBSHELL 42-39996 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) CRASHED AT MARSHAUSEN MACR 8179 (P) 2ND LT. JOHN V. DUNLAP POW ATLANTA, GA (CP) F/O JOSEPH J. CATER KIA YONKERS, NY (N) 2ND LT. HUBERT B. CARPENTER POW PITSBURG, TX (B) (TT) SGT. VINCENT M. BEACH KIA REDONDO BEACH, CA (R) (BT) SGT. ARTHUR B. MANCINO KIA YOUNGSTOWN, OH (RW) SGT. JOHN W. BARCLAY KIA HOUSTON, TX (LW) SGT. FRANK J. SIMONE KIA EDGEWOOD, PA (TG) SGT. ROBERT M. PASTER KIA MAPLE HGTS, OH (NG) SGT. LESLIE D. ALGEE KIA PRESCOTT, AL _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 20:08:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:08:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: I honestly tried to stay away from this forum for the last two weeks, but found myself drawn to it everyday. You guys are addictive, you know it? And for Bill Heller, I've got to apologize for going ballistic over the Mexican comments - sorry. Enough said. I guess the one thing I absolutely hated about the History Channel's "Suicide Missions - The Ball Turret Gunner" was the program made the ball sound like the most dangerous of all positions, which we all know is nonsense. And the stats presented yesterday on how many of each crew position were lost by month is statistically flawed - something called "systematically biased." If a Fort was mortally wounded and she was going down, everyone still alive would try to get out, right? So when a ship went down, the entire crew went with it - whether trapped inside, killed, or parachuting to safety, or in some cases, death at the hands of the German civilians. So to judge one position over another as being more dangerous is a bit flawed when you consider crew losses by the number of a/c lost. But I do appreciate the effort. It is very humbling for this non veteran to see such losses, especially a couple of days before the 4th. A better way to calculate the most dangerous crew position, and probably not even possible, would be to measure those men killed or wounded whose ships actually returned to England. Anyone care to take a stab at this one? In one of Freeman's books he gives it a go, but with several caveots - can't remember which one now. And it seems I remember the waist gunners had the most dangerous job on the Forts. Don't care if they could only fire at a 90 degree angle to the path of the plane, 20 and 30 mm fired in front of the plane or behind it had a tendency to rip through the guts of the plane and go off just about anywhere, since many of the 20s and 30s exploded based on time delayed fusing, however, the Naxis did use contact fuses as well. Just thought I'd add my two cents. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 20:08:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:08:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: I honestly tried to stay away from this forum for the last two weeks, but found myself drawn to it everyday. You guys are addictive, you know it? And for Bill Heller, I've got to apologize for going ballistic over the Mexican comments - sorry. Enough said. I guess the one thing I absolutely hated about the History Channel's "Suicide Missions - The Ball Turret Gunner" was the program made the ball sound like the most dangerous of all positions, which we all know is nonsense. And the stats presented yesterday on how many of each crew position were lost by month is statistically flawed - something called "systematically biased." If a Fort was mortally wounded and she was going down, everyone still alive would try to get out, right? So when a ship went down, the entire crew went with it - whether trapped inside, killed, or parachuting to safety, or in some cases, death at the hands of the German civilians. So to judge one position over another as being more dangerous is a bit flawed when you consider crew losses by the number of a/c lost. But I do appreciate the effort. It is very humbling for this non veteran to see such losses, especially a couple of days before the 4th. A better way to calculate the most dangerous crew position, and probably not even possible, would be to measure those men killed or wounded whose ships actually returned to England. Anyone care to take a stab at this one? In one of Freeman's books he gives it a go, but with several caveots - can't remember which one now. And it seems I remember the waist gunners had the most dangerous job on the Forts. Don't care if they could only fire at a 90 degree angle to the path of the plane, 20 and 30 mm fired in front of the plane or behind it had a tendency to rip through the guts of the plane and go off just about anywhere, since many of the 20s and 30s exploded based on time delayed fusing, however, the Naxis did use contact fuses as well. Just thought I'd add my two cents. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 21:36:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:36:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] KIA Message-ID: <8.16ac2f84.287386cd@aol.com> i too have the piece of their flak about one half inch in diameter and 3 inches long, that was stopped by the aluminum tourniqet twister on my back pack shoot harness. was knocked up and bak. shorted my heated suit connection ,but as buddy navigator helped immeasurably. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 21:46:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:46:58 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners In-Reply-To: <8.16ac2f84.287386cd@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010703104658.00873350@ilhawaii.net> We flew our first mission on 26Nov44 and our 35th on 20Mar45. We flew with one waist gunner until 22Feb45 and with no waist gunner for the last twelve missions. None of our gunners fired at an enemy aircraft untll we were hit by ME-262 jets on our last mission. The only person injured on our crew was the Waist gunner, who was hit by flak on 10Jan45. He was hospitalized and flew no more missions. Jim Walling > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jul 3 23:47:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:47:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <128.ec2756.2873a56e@aol.com> Gordy, I never flew the German fighters so I can only offer an opinion. If the range was close and the 50 caliber bullets hit direct (straight) in at a 90 degree angle I would suspect the bullets would penetrate the armor. If they hit at an angle like 45 degrees I would suspect the would rickashay off, maybe more so on the 190 than the 109s. Like our P47s that big radial engine up front in the 190 was the best armor they had. They could shoot a P51 down with a 22 short if it made a hole in the radiator. I don't recall the 303rd flying any missions without a radio operator and at least one waist gunner when I was there. I flew my 35th mission Christmas Eve 1944. I don't know what happened after that. I was in the US bragging and chasing women like the Bombardiers taught me. They did well. I caught one. I miss her. We were together for 51 years. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 00:10:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:10:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <10.f05d8df.2873aae5@aol.com> Kevin, No criticism but think a bit. There was probably not one plane that ever flew home with 2 dead pilots, Dead headed? yes sometimes. Dead Drunk? once in a while. Dead on their feet? Often. Dead wrong? Over half the time. Dead headed? All of us or we would have washed ourselves out while in Cadets. But just dead? no Kevin, Like the ball turret gunner in the ball when it made a belly landing. because of a hydraulic failure. It just didn't happen. Never ever not even once. Welcome back, Happy 4th You All. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 02:34:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:34:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows Message-ID: <001e01c10429$85645580$21bb9ace@mjpmtman> Jim Walling--you seem to be the logical man to answer that question. It seems to me that I remember seeing a window that swung in and swung or rolled back [towards the tail]. I flew to Casablanca in a "G" but can't remember anything about the windows --to busy looking at the scenery when we flew over Spain at 10,000 ft-----. M. J. PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 03:02:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:02:45 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows In-Reply-To: <001e01c10429$85645580$21bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010703160245.00874780@ilhawaii.net> M. J. Faulk, I guess I'm not the one either, as I don't remember. I was a ball turret gunner and the only time I flew at a waist gun I had just gotten out of my turret where I had passed out from lack of oxygen, so thing were not too clear. I don't believe there were windows at the waist openings. Jim Walling M 7/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Jim Walling--you seem to be the logical man to answer that question. It >seems to me that I remember seeing a window that swung in and swung or >rolled back [towards the tail]. I flew to Casablanca in a "G" but can't >remember anything about the windows --to busy looking at the scenery when we >flew over Spain at 10,000 ft-----. M. J. PAULK > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 05:09:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 04:09:34 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows Message-ID: <20010704040934.MYBY3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> The G model B-17 aircraft that I flew in had permanently enclosed windows in the waist area. I also flew on one F model and it was the same. The time frame was early 1945. Bill Runnels, bombardier > M. J. Faulk, > > I guess I'm not the one either, as I don't remember. I was a ball turret gunner > and the only time I flew at a waist gun I had just gotten out of my turret where > I had passed out from lack of oxygen, so thing were not too clear. I don't > believe there were windows at the waist openings. > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 16:46:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:46:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <120.133719c.28749443@aol.com> --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, The statistics that I quoted about bombardiers and tail gunners having the highest casualty rates didn't indicate whether or not they KIA and I don't remember the source. Sorry, Bob Finley --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack,  The statistics that I quoted about bombardiers and tail gunners having
the highest casualty rates didn't indicate whether or not they KIA and I
don't remember the source.                                                   
Sorry, Bob Finley --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:01:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:01:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WAIST GUN WINDOWS Message-ID: <000801c104ab$00355b20$0ebb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C10481.15928260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BILL RUNNELS & JIM WALLING----Thank you fellows! You might be = interested in perusing=20 a book I found hidden on my book shelf---FLYING FORTRESS - The Boeing = B-17 --by Ernest R. McDowell - squadron/signal publications. On page 79 HALL OF FAME = --Hell's Angels and Knockout Dropper are listed. PAGE 3 - illustrations - B-17 B - C- & D show tear-drop "blisters on the = waist. B-17E -----F-1---F-15-DL & F-55-BO & F-75-DL show what appears to be a 3 = section windo with deflector on the leading edge of the window. B-17G-1 shows open windo with deflector and a protuding waist gun. B-17G-80-BO & G-55-VE & G-25-DL shoiw a plain window - no deflector = with a sqluare at the=20 bottom center of the window. I bought this book in July of '92 when a = B-17G and aB- 24 were in Grand Island. Think it was from the Confederate air force = B-17--white triangle A - 231909 - R on the vertical stab.[found a photo.]---There are some real good = photos showing the development of the 17 from the XB models on up Wish I could give you publishers address -can't find it anywhere. In '92 = I paid $7.95 for the 8 1/2" X 11" paper bound book.=20 MAURICE PAULK =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C10481.15928260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BILL RUNNELS & JIM WALLING----Thank = you=20 fellows!  You might be interested in perusing
a book I found hidden on my book = shelf---FLYING=20 FORTRESS - The Boeing B-17 --by Ernest
 R. McDowell - squadron/signal = publications.=20 On page 79 HALL OF FAME --Hell's Angels
 and Knockout Dropper are = listed.
PAGE 3 - illustrations - B-17 B - = C- & D=20 show tear-drop "blisters on the waist.
B-17E -----F-1---F-15-DL & F-55-BO = &=20 F-75-DL show what appears to be a 3 section windo
 with deflector on the leading = edge of the=20 window.
B-17G-1 shows open windo with deflector = and a=20 protuding waist gun.
B-17G-80-BO & G-55-VE & G-25-DL = shoiw a=20 plain window - no deflector  with a sqluare at the
bottom center of the window. I bought = this book in=20 July of '92 when a B-17G and aB- 24 were
 in Grand Island. Think it was = from the=20 Confederate air force B-17--white triangle A - 231909 - R
 on the vertical  stab.[found = a=20 photo.]---There are some real good = photos showing=20 the development
of the 17 from the XB models on=20 up
 
Wish I could give you publishers = address -can't=20 find it anywhere. In '92 I paid $7.95 for the 8 1/2" X 11" = paper
bound book. 
 
MAURICE=20 PAULK
          =20
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C10481.15928260-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 17:47:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:47:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position Message-ID: <1e.1813790d.2874a2a3@aol.com> --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_alt_boundary" --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the thirty-one 303rd BG(H) crewmen who were killed in action and bodies returned to Molesworth see: http://www.303rdbga.com/kia-rtb.html Nose area Navigator (6) Bombardier (3) Cockpit Area Pilot (1) CoPilot (6) Engineer (1) Aft of Bomb Bay Radio (2) Ball Turret (1) Left Waist (2) Right Waist (2) Waist (2) Tail Gunner (5) Draw your own conclusions as to the safest position Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the thirty-one 303rd BG(H) crewmen who were killed in action and bodies
returned to Molesworth see: http://www.303rdbga.com/kia-rtb.html
Nose area
Navigator (6)
Bombardier (3)
Cockpit Area
Pilot      (1)
CoPilot  (6)
Engineer (1)
Aft of Bomb Bay
Radio (2)
Ball Turret (1)
Left Waist (2)
Right Waist (2)
Waist (2)
Tail Gunner (5)
Draw your own conclusions as to the safest position

Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_alt_boundary-- --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com> Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.1]) by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:13:59 -0400 Received: from pairlist.net (pairlist.net [216.92.1.92]) by rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (v79.20) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYG18-0704121258; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:12:58 -0400 Received: from pairlist.net (localhost.pair.com [127.0.0.1]) by pairlist.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FDD536F9; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #322 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Errors-To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com X-BeenThere: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com X-Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: 303rd Bomb Group Forum <303rd-talk.303rdBGA.com> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Message-Id: <20010704160447.B2FDD536F9@pairlist.net> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com You can reach the person managing the list at 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: 303rd BG-KIA (Jprencher@aol.com) 2. Re: Fw: 303rd BG-KIA (Jprencher@aol.com) 3. Waist gun windows (Maurice Paulk) 4. Re: Waist gun windows (Jim Walling) 5. Re: Waist gun windows (b.runnels@att.net) 6. Re: Fw: 303rd BG-KIA (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) 7. Re: Radio Operators (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) 8. Re: Fw: 303rd BG-KIA (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) 9. Re: Fw: 303rd BG-KIA (yelnifar@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:47:10 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Gordy, I never flew the German fighters so I can only offer an opinion. If the range was close and the 50 caliber bullets hit direct (straight) in at a 90 degree angle I would suspect the bullets would penetrate the armor. If they hit at an angle like 45 degrees I would suspect the would rickashay off, maybe more so on the 190 than the 109s. Like our P47s that big radial engine up front in the 190 was the best armor they had. They could shoot a P51 down with a 22 short if it made a hole in the radiator. I don't recall the 303rd flying any missions without a radio operator and at least one waist gunner when I was there. I flew my 35th mission Christmas Eve 1944. I don't know what happened after that. I was in the US bragging and chasing women like the Bombardiers taught me. They did well. I caught one. I miss her. We were together for 51 years. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:10:29 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Kevin, No criticism but think a bit. There was probably not one plane that ever flew home with 2 dead pilots, Dead headed? yes sometimes. Dead Drunk? once in a while. Dead on their feet? Often. Dead wrong? Over half the time. Dead headed? All of us or we would have washed ourselves out while in Cadets. But just dead? no Kevin, Like the ball turret gunner in the ball when it made a belly landing. because of a hydraulic failure. It just didn't happen. Never ever not even once. Welcome back, Happy 4th You All. Jack Rencher --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:34:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Jim Walling--you seem to be the logical man to answer that question. It seems to me that I remember seeing a window that swung in and swung or rolled back [towards the tail]. I flew to Casablanca in a "G" but can't remember anything about the windows --to busy looking at the scenery when we flew over Spain at 10,000 ft-----. M. J. PAULK --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:02:45 -1000 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com From: Jim Walling Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com M. J. Faulk, I guess I'm not the one either, as I don't remember. I was a ball turret gunner and the only time I flew at a waist gun I had just gotten out of my turret where I had passed out from lack of oxygen, so thing were not too clear. I don't believe there were windows at the waist openings. Jim Walling M 7/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Jim Walling--you seem to be the logical man to answer that question. It >seems to me that I remember seeing a window that swung in and swung or >rolled back [towards the tail]. I flew to Casablanca in a "G" but can't >remember anything about the windows --to busy looking at the scenery when we >flew over Spain at 10,000 ft-----. M. J. PAULK > > > > > --__--__-- Message: 5 From: b.runnels@att.net To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Waist gun windows Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 04:09:34 +0000 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com The G model B-17 aircraft that I flew in had permanently enclosed windows in the waist area. I also flew on one F model and it was the same. The time frame was early 1945. Bill Runnels, bombardier > M. J. Faulk, > > I guess I'm not the one either, as I don't remember. I was a ball turret gunner > and the only time I flew at a waist gun I had just gotten out of my turret where > I had passed out from lack of oxygen, so thing were not too clear. I don't > believe there were windows at the waist openings. > > > > > > > --__--__-- Message: 6 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?= To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Very interesting remarks by Oskar Bosch do you happen to know his victory claims over our bombers and units he he was in any information appreciated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > Gordy: I've got to reply to your question about armor on Luftwaffe > fighters. As I've mentioned before to you, I know a pilot, Oskar Bosch, who > was with VI.(Sturm)/JG 3, who flew both ME 109s and FW 190s, but at > different times during the war. Oskar said that .50s would not penetrate > the armor underneath his seat on his FW 190 unless he was very close to the > origin of the shot and that the shot hit the armor at a perpendicular angle. > If these two conditions were not met, then the shot would graze of the > armor plate, but, as he put it, "leave your ass really sore." > > What Oskar loved most about his FW 190s was, in his own words, "that big > life-saving radial engine." His Sturmstaffel almost always attacked from > the rear. He said they would try to knock out the tail gunner first, then > the ball gunner, with the 20 and 30 mm cannons while sitting out of range of > our .50s. After those positions were neutralized (he was always very > careful not to say "killed"), then they would close at an angle to the rear > of the plane and slightly above the plane to avoid the waist guns. As they > closed in on the Forts, he said they would hunker down in the cockpit and > try to make themselves as small as possible. If the tail or waist was still > operational, that big radial would take the shots. He said those radials > saved his life on several occasions. Then they would aim at where the > fuselage met the wing where the main fuel cells were located. He also said > on one sweep, his radial was hit and blew a cylinder head completely off, > but the engine kept turning and he made it back to Käten. > > Oskar was with a Sturmstaffel, a specially equipped "hunter/killer" unit > that went after the bombers. Their tactics differed from those used by > other units and their tactics differed greatly from the beginning of the war > to the end. When he was flying 109s early in 1943, he said they attacked > head on because our Forts didn't have the Bendix chin turrets as the later G > models had. He also said they were quite "sensitive" to the firepower of a > B-17 and wanted to minimize the amount of time exposed to our guns. This > was when Oskar was flying for 301/JG 3 "Udet." Later in the war with 190s > and in the Sturmstaffel, their tactics changed because of experience and > their mission of knocking down bombers. With a head on attack, closure > rates were in excess of 500 mph, making only short bursts possible which > were not effective in downing the sturdy 17s. Oskar's Sturmstaffel > experiences were in mid 44 to early 45, before being transfered to defense > missions around Berlin. > > Hope this answered your question. > Kevin > > > > >From: "Gordon Alton" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:42:30 -0700 > > > >Hi Jack, > > Heck of a nice reply to this question. I have read little snippets of > >why the second gunner was dropped, but you combined everything in a > >nutshell. I know what you mean about shooting at 90 degrees. Every tried > >shooting a gopher from a moving truck, heading down the road at even 30 > >miles an hour? It's impossible. I can imagine it at five times that speed. > >Some of the gunners must have got the knack of it though, didn't they? > > My Dad was a tailgunner, and he told me a bit about leading the > >fighters. Lots of times they would come from very high, or from below, to > >avoid the tail guns. That's when the ball turret really came into play. > >When > >the two gunners could work together, on an experienced crew, they could > >assist each other by telling the other guy exactly what the fighter was > >doing, and where he was heading, so the other guys guns would be ready in > >the brief one or two seconds he had to fire. Dad said he would be able to > >lead the fighter before he even saw it, if someone else knew what they were > >doing, and worked as a team. For instance, if the fighter was coming from 7 > >o'clock low, and unseen from the tail, the BTG would call him out, and the > >tail would have his guns pointed and ready. As soon as the guns in the ball > >stopped, Dad would fire, and the German would fly right through a hail of > >bullets, as he swooped up and away to avoid the ball and tail guns. > > As often as not, though, the bullets would bounce off the armor on the > >bottom of the fighter. If the fighter was close enough, would the bullets > >penetrate the armor? Anyone have experience in that regard? > >Teamwork. > >Gordy. > > > >****************************************** > >"Our freedom is not free. Please > >remember those who fought to keep it." > >Gordon L. Alton > >129 Mariko Place > >Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 > >ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 > >gordy@saltspring.com > >****************************************** > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:50 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > > > > > > > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the turrets, > >the > > > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd > >because > > > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight they > >had a > > > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 > >miles > >or > > > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock > >where > > > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about half > >way > > > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit anything > >with > > > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at once so > > > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. > >Even > > > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the > >same > > > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had a > >pilot > > > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot down > >by > > > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On my > >first > > > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 planes > >to > > > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in the > >area. > > > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions > >who's > > > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy > >losses > > > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they dropped > >one > > > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just > >removed > > > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --__--__-- Message: 7 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?= To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:04:33 -0400 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Great information, how many B-17 were sent on this mission? THANKS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Radio Operators > They also did away with radio operators in some ships in some groups in mid > and late 44. Here are the MACR for six Forts from the 91st BG(H), 324th BS, > lost 16.8.44, enroute to the Seibel Aircraft works at Halle. Note, no Radio > Operators were on board. > > MISSING AIR CREW REPORT > 16 AUGUST 1944 > > (1) B-17 43-3800 91STBG 322NDBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED NEAR LEHNA MACR 8181 > (P) 2ND LT. RESSE W. LINDSEY KIA ROCKY RIVER, OH > (CP) 2ND LT. ALBERT J PERRY KIA LaGRANGE, GA > (N) 2ND LT. CLAYTON B. BAUGH KIA GROVE HILL, AL > (B) 2ND LT. LEE G. BRATCHER KIA HILLSBORO, TX > (TT) SGT. JOHN C. CRABB KIA OKLHMA CITY, OK > (R) > (BT) SGT. JOHN V. BUXTON KIA MIAMI, FL > (RW) SGT. ROBERT L. SCHRECENGOST KIA BEAVER FLLS, PA > (LW) SGT. CLEO H. GATES KIA TYLER, TX > (TG) SGT. LEWIS C. MORGAN POW ELKHART, KS > > (2) B-17 44-6126 91STBG 322NDBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED AT CHARTES MACR 8185 > (P) 1ST LT. JOHN L. LESLIE KIA NORBERTT, PA > (CP) 2ND LT. JOHN E. SAVAGE KIA TURLOCK, CA > (N) 2ND LT. STANLEY KOSS KIA BROOKLYN, NY > (B) F/O EARL W. DONLEY KIA ELIZABETHTN, PA > (TT) T/SGT. JOSEPH H. GODFREY POW LONGVIEW, TX > (R) > (BT) S/SGT. IVAN F. DOYLE POW CURTIS, NE > (RW) T/SGT. JAMES I. MIDDLETON POW HENDERSON, KY > (LW) S/SGT. DOUGLAS BUNTIN KIA LONGBEACH, CA > (TG) S/SGT. LOUIS KOS KIA ERIE, PA > > (3) B-17 TXS CHBBY-THE J'VLL JKR 42-31634 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED AT KITCHENBERG MACR 8184 > (P) 1ST LT. HALSTEAD SHERRIL KIA FLUSHING, NY > (CP) 2ND LT. FRANK J. GILLIGAN KIA KENMORE, > (N) 2ND LT. WILLIAM M. PORTER POW SAN ANTONIO, TX > (B) 2ND LT. NICHOLAS J. WEBER POW ALLISON, PA > (TT) SGT. VERNON E. BAUERLING KIA LITTLETOWN, PA > (R) > (BT) S/SGT. ENRIQUE T. PEREZ KIA BLOWETT, TX > (RW) S/SGT. JOSEPH R. MORRISON KIA FORT WAYNE, IN > (LW) RICHARD J. MUNKWITZ POW DETROIT, MI > (TG) SGT. CHESTER W. MIS POW LA SOLLO, IL > > (4) B-17 43-38012 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED AT WITZENHAUSEN MACR 8180 > (P) 2ND LT. VINCENT A. FONKE POW BREESE, IL > (CP) 2ND LT. FRED W. VAN SLANT POW OAKLAND, CA > (N) 2ND LT. ROBERT W. SIMCOCK, JR. POW BURLINGAME, CA > (B) 2ND LT. HERBERT CARLSON POW BROOKLYN, NY > (TT) S/SGT. RAYMOND V. PRANGE POW PORTLAND, OR > (R) > (BT) SGT. CHARLES S. BRUDO POW SEATTLE, WA > (RW) S/SGT. WENDELL O. MEENACH POW INDIANPOLS, IN > (LW) SGT. WILLIAM J. WEAVER POW CONNERSVILLE, IN > (TG) SGT. WILLARD M. HOLDEN KIA SABIN, MN > > (5) B-17 LASSIE COMING HOME 42-31673 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED AT DEIDERODE MACR 8183 > (P) 2ND LT. LEONARD F. FIGIE POW > (CP) 2ND LT. DALE W. WHITSON KIA > (N) 2ND LT. FREDERICK SEIBEL KIA > (B) > (TT) T/SGT. WALTER L. CARPENTER POW > (R) > (BT) SGT. FREDERICK D. BALDWIN KIA > (RW) SGT. EDMUND J. MIKOLAITUS KIA > (LW) S/SGT. WALTER SALO POW > > (TG) SGT. JOHN F. WALLASZEK POW > (NG) S/SGT. HARLON B. WILLIAMS POW > > (6) B-17 BOSTON BOMBSHELL 42-39996 91STBG 324THBS (FIGHTERS) > CRASHED AT MARSHAUSEN MACR 8179 > (P) 2ND LT. JOHN V. DUNLAP POW ATLANTA, GA > (CP) F/O JOSEPH J. CATER KIA YONKERS, NY > (N) 2ND LT. HUBERT B. CARPENTER POW PITSBURG, TX > (B) > (TT) SGT. VINCENT M. BEACH KIA REDONDO BEACH, CA > (R) > (BT) SGT. ARTHUR B. MANCINO KIA YOUNGSTOWN, OH > (RW) SGT. JOHN W. BARCLAY KIA HOUSTON, TX > (LW) SGT. FRANK J. SIMONE KIA EDGEWOOD, PA > (TG) SGT. ROBERT M. PASTER KIA MAPLE HGTS, OH > (NG) SGT. LESLIE D. ALGEE KIA PRESCOTT, AL > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --__--__-- Message: 8 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?= To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:10:46 -0400 Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I have that video on Suiside Missions, The ball turret gunner and have your remarks open my eyes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > I honestly tried to stay away from this forum for the last two weeks, but > found myself drawn to it everyday. You guys are addictive, you know it? > And for Bill Heller, I've got to apologize for going ballistic over the > Mexican comments - sorry. Enough said. > > I guess the one thing I absolutely hated about the History Channel's > "Suicide Missions - The Ball Turret Gunner" was the program made the ball > sound like the most dangerous of all positions, which we all know is > nonsense. And the stats presented yesterday on how many of each crew > position were lost by month is statistically flawed - something called > "systematically biased." If a Fort was mortally wounded and she was going > down, everyone still alive would try to get out, right? So when a ship went > down, the entire crew went with it - whether trapped inside, killed, or > parachuting to safety, or in some cases, death at the hands of the German > civilians. So to judge one position over another as being more dangerous is > a bit flawed when you consider crew losses by the number of a/c lost. But I > do appreciate the effort. It is very humbling for this non veteran to see > such losses, especially a couple of days before the 4th. > > A better way to calculate the most dangerous crew position, and probably not > even possible, would be to measure those men killed or wounded whose ships > actually returned to England. Anyone care to take a stab at this one? In > one of Freeman's books he gives it a go, but with several caveots - can't > remember which one now. And it seems I remember the waist gunners had the > most dangerous job on the Forts. Don't care if they could only fire at a 90 > degree angle to the path of the plane, 20 and 30 mm fired in front of the > plane or behind it had a tendency to rip through the guts of the plane and > go off just about anywhere, since many of the 20s and 30s exploded based on > time delayed fusing, however, the Naxis did use contact fuses as well. > > Just thought I'd add my two cents. > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --__--__-- Message: 9 From: yelnifar@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:46:11 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, The statistics that I quoted about bombardiers and tail gunners having the highest casualty rates didn't indicate whether or not they KIA and I don't remember the source. Sorry, Bob Finley --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, The statistics that I quoted about bombardiers and tail gunners having
the highest casualty rates didn't indicate whether or not they KIA and I
don't remember the source.
Sorry, Bob Finley --part1_120.133719c.28749443_boundary-- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk End of 303rd-Talk Digest --part1_1e.1813790d.2874a2a3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 17:54:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:54:08 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Waist Gunners Message-ID: --part1_a2.16587e48.2874a430_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 303rd BG(H) crews were reduced from 10 to 9 men shortly after D-Day by eliminating one of the two Waist Gunner positions. In 1945 most crews were reduced from 9 men to 8 men by eliminating the remaining Waist Gunner position The 303rd BG(H) always flew with Radio Operators. After D-Day Radio Operators sometimes manned one of the waist guns if fighter attacks made this necessary. Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_a2.16587e48.2874a430_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 303rd BG(H) crews were reduced from 10 to 9 men shortly after D-Day by
eliminating one of the two Waist Gunner positions.
In 1945 most crews  were reduced from 9 men to 8 men by eliminating the
remaining Waist Gunner position
The 303rd BG(H) always flew with Radio Operators.
After D-Day Radio Operators sometimes manned one of the waist guns if fighter
attacks made this necessary.
Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_a2.16587e48.2874a430_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:10:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:10:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Actually, Jack, there were several Fortresses and Libs that made it back with two dead (and/or wounded) pilots. I'm at my office now, or I'd get you the plane names and groups. One of the 8th AF Medal of Honor winners was a TT/FE who flew his plane back with both pilots either dead or severely wounded. After the remaining crew bailed out over England, the TT/FE and the other crew member who stayed to assist, crashed the a/c after two or three aborted landing attempts, killing them both. So you see, SOME crew did make it back with two dead or incapacitated pilots. I think the guys name was Trumpeter. He's been written up in several books. One of the waist gunners who lived through that experience lives in my home town of Peoria, Illinois. Many crewmen from the tailgunners to flight engineers would go up when the mechanics were slow timing the engines so they could get some flying experience for just such an event. Of course, this was not sanctioned by the higher ups, but it did happen. If you want a few more examples, just say the word. I've got at least a dozen more examples at home. Trumpeter is the only one I know moff hand. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:10:29 EDT > >Kevin, No criticism but think a bit. There was probably not one plane that >ever flew home with 2 dead pilots, Dead headed? yes sometimes. Dead Drunk? >once in a while. Dead on their feet? Often. Dead wrong? Over half the time. >Dead headed? All of us or we would have washed ourselves out while in >Cadets. >But just dead? no Kevin, Like the ball turret gunner in the ball when it >made >a belly landing. because of a hydraulic failure. It just didn't happen. >Never >ever not even once. > Welcome back, Happy 4th You All. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:29:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:29:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Francisco: I have reams of information on Oskar Bosch. Tell me what it is you are looking for and I will copy and send to you. I even have two audio tapes (about 4 hours) of my two interviews with him. To answer your question, Oskar had 18 victories (they never used the word "kills"). Most were Russian, but there were a couple of Forts and Libs. I'm at my office now and can provide you the exact victories he had if you wish - let me know. Oskar had to declare in writing before each mission he would not return unless he had downed at least one bomber. That was part of being in the Sturmstaffel. They were instructed to ram if necessary. This he did four times. He also crash landed four times. On May 6, 1945, Oskar was flying a defence mission of Berlin and expended all of his ammo. He collided with a YAK-9, managed to bail out, but banged up his knee very severely. He was taken prisoner by the Russians (only because he was a pilot), escaped three days later, and walked 1,000 km back to his home town in Austria. Quite a remarkable guy. He still flys gliders on the airshow circuit. The show is called "Wings of a Man." The show has even been produced into a IMAX production. If you ever hear Oskar is coming to an airfield near you, go see him. What he does with a glider is not to be believed. Kevin >From: FRANCISCO QUIÑONES >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA >Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:57:24 -0400 > >Very interesting remarks by Oskar Bosch do you happen to know his victory >claims over our bombers and units he he was in any information appreciated. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:43 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > > > > Gordy: I've got to reply to your question about armor on Luftwaffe > > fighters. As I've mentioned before to you, I know a pilot, Oskar Bosch, >who > > was with VI.(Sturm)/JG 3, who flew both ME 109s and FW 190s, but at > > different times during the war. Oskar said that .50s would not >penetrate > > the armor underneath his seat on his FW 190 unless he was very close to >the > > origin of the shot and that the shot hit the armor at a perpendicular >angle. > > If these two conditions were not met, then the shot would graze of the > > armor plate, but, as he put it, "leave your ass really sore." > > > > What Oskar loved most about his FW 190s was, in his own words, "that big > > life-saving radial engine." His Sturmstaffel almost always attacked >from > > the rear. He said they would try to knock out the tail gunner first, >then > > the ball gunner, with the 20 and 30 mm cannons while sitting out of >range >of > > our .50s. After those positions were neutralized (he was always very > > careful not to say "killed"), then they would close at an angle to the >rear > > of the plane and slightly above the plane to avoid the waist guns. As >they > > closed in on the Forts, he said they would hunker down in the cockpit >and > > try to make themselves as small as possible. If the tail or waist was >still > > operational, that big radial would take the shots. He said those >radials > > saved his life on several occasions. Then they would aim at where the > > fuselage met the wing where the main fuel cells were located. He also >said > > on one sweep, his radial was hit and blew a cylinder head completely >off, > > but the engine kept turning and he made it back to Käten. > > > > Oskar was with a Sturmstaffel, a specially equipped "hunter/killer" unit > > that went after the bombers. Their tactics differed from those used by > > other units and their tactics differed greatly from the beginning of the >war > > to the end. When he was flying 109s early in 1943, he said they >attacked > > head on because our Forts didn't have the Bendix chin turrets as the >later >G > > models had. He also said they were quite "sensitive" to the firepower >of >a > > B-17 and wanted to minimize the amount of time exposed to our guns. >This > > was when Oskar was flying for 301/JG 3 "Udet." Later in the war with >190s > > and in the Sturmstaffel, their tactics changed because of experience and > > their mission of knocking down bombers. With a head on attack, closure > > rates were in excess of 500 mph, making only short bursts possible which > > were not effective in downing the sturdy 17s. Oskar's Sturmstaffel > > experiences were in mid 44 to early 45, before being transfered to >defense > > missions around Berlin. > > > > Hope this answered your question. > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: "Gordon Alton" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > > >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:42:30 -0700 > > > > > >Hi Jack, > > > Heck of a nice reply to this question. I have read little snippets >of > > >why the second gunner was dropped, but you combined everything in a > > >nutshell. I know what you mean about shooting at 90 degrees. Every >tried > > >shooting a gopher from a moving truck, heading down the road at even 30 > > >miles an hour? It's impossible. I can imagine it at five times that >speed. > > >Some of the gunners must have got the knack of it though, didn't they? > > > My Dad was a tailgunner, and he told me a bit about leading the > > >fighters. Lots of times they would come from very high, or from below, >to > > >avoid the tail guns. That's when the ball turret really came into play. > > >When > > >the two gunners could work together, on an experienced crew, they could > > >assist each other by telling the other guy exactly what the fighter was > > >doing, and where he was heading, so the other guys guns would be ready >in > > >the brief one or two seconds he had to fire. Dad said he would be able >to > > >lead the fighter before he even saw it, if someone else knew what they >were > > >doing, and worked as a team. For instance, if the fighter was coming >from >7 > > >o'clock low, and unseen from the tail, the BTG would call him out, and >the > > >tail would have his guns pointed and ready. As soon as the guns in the >ball > > >stopped, Dad would fire, and the German would fly right through a hail >of > > >bullets, as he swooped up and away to avoid the ball and tail guns. > > > As often as not, though, the bullets would bounce off the armor on >the > > >bottom of the fighter. If the fighter was close enough, would the >bullets > > >penetrate the armor? Anyone have experience in that regard? > > >Teamwork. > > >Gordy. > > > > > >****************************************** > > >"Our freedom is not free. Please > > >remember those who fought to keep it." > > >Gordon L. Alton > > >129 Mariko Place > > >Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K1E1 > > >ph 250-537-5913 fax 250-537-5981 > > >gordy@saltspring.com > > >****************************************** > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:50 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA > > > > > > > > > > Bill Owen, The waist guns were very inefficient compared to the >turrets, > > >the > > > > nose and the tail. First there was only one gun out each side. 2nd > > >because > > > > they were firing basically 90 degrees from the direction of flight >they > > >had a > > > > tremendous lead in order to hit anything. We were traveling about 3 > > >miles > > >or > > > > so per minute. If we were being attacked from 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock > > >where > > > > the waist guns would be used, the gunner would have to aim about >half > > >way > > > > between the target and our tail. This made it very hard to hit >anything > > >with > > > > a waist gun. 3rd We didn't often get attacked from both sides at >once >so > > > > usually one gunner could turn from one gun to the other very easily. > > >Even > > > > when we had 2 waist gunners rarely were they ever both firing at the > > >same > > > > time. 4th. Between 1942 and 1945 the air war changed. In 1942 I had >a > > >pilot > > > > who finished his 25 missions tell me he had never seen a plane shot >down > > >by > > > > anti aircraft fire. All we had to worry about were the fighters. On >my > > >first > > > > mission in 1944 I saw the squadron 15 seconds ahead of us lose 7 >planes > > >to > > > > anti aircraft fire on their bomb run. There was not one fighter in >the > > >area. > > > > There were many crews in late 44 and 1945 who flew their 35 missions > > >who's > > > > gunners never fired a shot at enemy fighters, but we had very heavy > > >losses > > > > from 88 MM and 105 MM anti aircraft guns. Now you know why they >dropped > > >one > > > > waist gunner. Come to think of it. They didn't drop him. They just > > >removed > > > > him from the crew. Saved parachutes that way. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:51:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:51:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position Message-ID: Harry, Thank you for your report on the KIA that returned to Molesworth. I would think the Navigator and The Bombardier in the nose would be about equal but the 3 and 6 could be just a coincidence with such small numbers. What struck me as revealing was the 6 and 1 ratio of pilots and copilots. I can think of no reason why their risk of being killed would not be equal After thinking about this I reach a probable reason that is not to flattering to us copilots. If any crew member is killed or wounded there must be some damage, major or minor, to the aircraft. If one of the pilots is killed it falls on the other pilot to get the damaged bird home. It appears from your study that that us copilots were not very successful in this calling. I suppose it is not surprising when we realize that most copilots had no, zero, not any 4 engine time when they were assigned to a crew. Some I'm sure had no multiengine time at all. A majority of the crews that were lost went down on their first 12 missions. This tells us something but 56 (59) years too late. Thanks again Harry (One of us two) Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:51:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:51:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position Message-ID: Harry, Thank you for your report on the KIA that returned to Molesworth. I would think the Navigator and The Bombardier in the nose would be about equal but the 3 and 6 could be just a coincidence with such small numbers. What struck me as revealing was the 6 and 1 ratio of pilots and copilots. I can think of no reason why their risk of being killed would not be equal After thinking about this I reach a probable reason that is not to flattering to us copilots. If any crew member is killed or wounded there must be some damage, major or minor, to the aircraft. If one of the pilots is killed it falls on the other pilot to get the damaged bird home. It appears from your study that that us copilots were not very successful in this calling. I suppose it is not surprising when we realize that most copilots had no, zero, not any 4 engine time when they were assigned to a crew. Some I'm sure had no multiengine time at all. A majority of the crews that were lost went down on their first 12 missions. This tells us something but 56 (59) years too late. Thanks again Harry (One of us two) Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 18:51:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:51:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <24.15d096a8.2874b1ae@aol.com> simply ,regardless of numbers all suffered and war is hell to each individual From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 21:55:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:55:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > .... What > struck me as revealing was the 6 and 1 ratio of pilots and copilots. I can > think of no reason why their risk of being killed would not be equal After > thinking about this I reach a probable reason that is not to flattering to us > copilots. If any crew member is killed or wounded there must be some damage, > major or minor, to the aircraft. If one of the pilots is killed it falls on > the other pilot to get the damaged bird home. It appears from your study that > that us copilots were not very successful in this calling. This statistic struck my curiosity as well, and as you mentioned, it is probably just that these are way to few observations to draw any conclusions. However I did think of two possibilitys for an explanation, although I have no idea of whether it makes any sense. The thing I was thinking was perhaps it had something to do with the right to left high to low arrangement of planes in the formation. Ie I was wondering whether perhaps with the formation flying at an angle, that EA fighters might prefer to come in from the high right front rather than the left, since they'd have fewer planes that could shoot at them from that angle? Another possibility might relate to who was flying the plane at the time of the injury. Ie if the pilot were flying, and was hit, wouldn't the plane be more likely to go out of control for a while, so that the co-pilot would have to recover from a dive or something rather than just flying the plane. Whereas if the co-pilot was hit, and the pilot was flying, the pilot would just continue to fly, and wouldn't have to recover from an emergency situation. This came to mind, because I have a narrative from the pilot who flew with my father on his first mission. The narrative said that they came into some flak, and he heard my father report on the intercom that he had been hit (apparently a minor injury), and by the time he had a chance to look over, the engineer had already started down to give first aid. Ie the pilot was so intent on flying that if it wasn't for the intercom, he wouldn't have noticed, and would have just flown on. However, if the pilot had been hit, it seems much more likely that the plane would get out of control. Just a couple ideas. However I'm sure that the real reason is that there were just too few observations to get any significant statistics. Another comment though. The suggestion that you can't conclude anything from the planes that went down (since the whole crew went down) isn't quite right either. I think that a large factor relating to the relative safety or danger of the various positions has to be how easy it is to bail out, not just how likely one is to get hit. I would think that some of the stations might be harder to get out of in a hurry or in a spin. Because of this, I think the overall KIA statistics including planes that went down are quite realistic with respect to the danger associated with each crew position. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 22:05:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 16:05:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Kevin, Mr. Bosch indeed sounds like quite the man and surely an interesting = person to talk to.. I hope he has written a book of his exploits. Just = the part about hiking 1000 km (I think that's over 600 miles isn't it) = only 3 days after severly banging up a knee is remarkable. I've never = been there but it doesn't seem like Austria would have very friendly = hiking terrain even for a healthy person. Then again, it seems that all = our ancestors accomplished feats we would never think of attempting. If = there is such a book could you let us know?=20 Thanks, Duke=20 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 23:34:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:34:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <80.c96c65b.2874f3df@aol.com> Kevin, Thanks for setting me straight on the other flying crew members. From the time we started training I tried to teach other crew member to fly at least well enough to land the Bird if Goering and I were both out. I thought the Bombardier would be the best prospect, but it didn't work out with him.(He has a son and grandson who are now airline pilots) The Navigator wouldn't even try. The Engineer did pretty well. He never quite landed it without me helping him a bit but he got close. The Ball turret was a washed out cadet and I found why very soon. The tail gunner took to flying like a duck. He was a farmer and understood machinery. I think he and the engineer could have got it down if they could have found the airport Needless to say I am very happy we never found out. We got it home as scrap metal a few times but we always all walked or ran away from it before they pushed it off the runway with a bull dozer. I lie a lot. I never stayed around long enough. to see how they got it off the runway but it was always gone the next morning. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jul 4 23:40:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:40:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: <89.8eaf759.2874f57b@aol.com> Kevin, I should have said,:It never happened in the 303 to the best of my knowledge. I don't pretend to know about the other bomb groups or B 24s. Bless you my boy, if it's not illegal now, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 00:33:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:33:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: WAIST GUN WINDOWS Message-ID: <000801c104e1$b5e1a060$64bb9ace@mjpmtman> That first one was a bleedin' mess--forgot to kill the HTML ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: WAIST GUN WINDOWS BILL RUNNELS & JIM WALLING----Thank you fellows! You might be interested in perusing a book I found hidden on my book shelf---FLYING FORTRESS - The Boeing B-17 --by Ernest R. McDowell - squadron/signal publications. On page 79 HALL OF FAME --Hell's Angels and Knockout Dropper are listed. PAGE 3 - illustrations - B-17 B - C- & D show tear-drop "blisters on the waist. B-17E -----F-1---F-15-DL & F-55-BO & F-75-DL show what appears to be a 3 section windo with deflector on the leading edge of the window. B-17G-1 shows open windo with deflector and a protuding waist gun. B-17G-80-BO & G-55-VE & G-25-DL shoiw a plain window - no deflector with a sqluare at the bottom center of the window. I bought this book in July of '92 when a B-17G and aB- 24 were in Grand Island. Think it was from the Confederate air force B-17--white triangle A - 231909 - R on the vertical stab.[found a photo.]---There are some real good photos showing the development of the 17 from the XB models on up Wish I could give you publishers address -can't find it anywhere. In '92 I paid $7.95 for the 8 1/2" X 11" paper bound book. MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 07:36:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:36:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position Message-ID: <17.18149ea1.287564ee@aol.com> Bill Jones, I read your thoughts and considered them carefully. The waist was probably the easiest to bail out from but really I see very little difference. The pilots was no doubt the most difficult, but maybe the tail would be in a spin. I've never been in the tail during a spin. Probably in a spin any position would be somewhat difficult to bail out from unless you were physically quite strong. Most all the pilots were in pretty good physical condition. This is an awful thing to say but I sincerely believe that a significant percentage of the planes that went down could have been flown home or to friendly territory with a different crew in it. No doubt the tail was a dangerous position especially during the 42 43 time frame when most of our losses were caused by fighters. When flak took over in 44 & 45 the tail was just as safe as any other if you didn't lose your oxygen. Thanks for your interesting observations. One more. comment I want to throw at you A few copilots were damn good pilots probably better pilots than their first pilots but with very few exceptions they had no training and/or experience in multi engine aircraft. I've had some of them tell me they flew their 35 missions and never shot a landing or made a take off. And few first pilots ever practiced unusual positions, flying with 2 engines on one side, 3 engine take offs, stalls, spins of even a loop or barrel roll. Enough said. maybe too much. Best Wishes, Jack R. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 08:19:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 00:19:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position References: <17.18149ea1.287564ee@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B44151C.91EBC1FA@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... Enjoy your comments. Pilots who graduated from what was known as Specialized Four Engine Training in the B17, and who were slated to become First Pilots ... or, as the USAF now calls them, Aircraft Commanders ... DID practice many of the things about which you had your doubts. The Lockbourne Air Field, in Columbus, Ohio ... now known as Rickenbacker AFB, was a specialized B17 Four Engine school. I graduated from it. The first class to do so. We DID do two and three engine work. We DID do unusual positions. We DID do stalls. We DID do steep turns of the 75 degree variety associated with some of the unusual position training. We DID do Chandelles. AND, certain of us, when doing "solo" work, ie., with no Instructor on Board, DID spin ... AND loop ... the B17! Anent the discussion as to which crew position was more dangerous than any other, I am firmly convinced it was the luck of the draw. A Tail Gunner whose oxygen line was severed by whatever means, was merely a statistical casualty and a victim of COMBAT. Perhaps if he were in a waist position, a colleague could have noticed his actions, or lack thereof, and been of some help due to position in the aircraft at the time of the line going out due to damage. Yes, Fighters were tougher in the early times, but Flak always gained superiority when it was of the barrage variety and nothing could be done about it. We did, notice, however, with barrage Flak, the Fighters stayed away, as if on signal .... And, after one or two crew positions - I recall a copilot who was thusly killed - were actually wounded and or killed by Flak coming from below, MANY of the pilots SAT on their Flak vests! I sat on mine. Cheers, old Buddy! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Jones, I read your thoughts and considered them carefully. The waist was > probably the easiest to bail out from but really I see very little > difference. The pilots was no doubt the most difficult, but maybe the tail > would be in a spin. I've never been in the tail during a spin. Probably in a > spin any position would be somewhat difficult to bail out from unless you > were physically quite strong. Most all the pilots were in pretty good > physical condition. This is an awful thing to say but I sincerely believe > that a significant percentage of the planes that went down could have been > flown home or to friendly territory with a different crew in it. No doubt the > tail was a dangerous position especially during the 42 43 time frame when > most of our losses were caused by fighters. When flak took over in 44 & 45 > the tail was just as safe as any other if you didn't lose your oxygen. Thanks > for your interesting observations. One more. comment I want to throw at you A > few copilots were damn good pilots probably better pilots than their first > pilots but with very few exceptions they had no training and/or experience in > multi engine aircraft. I've had some of them tell me they flew their 35 > missions and never shot a landing or made a take off. And few first pilots > ever practiced unusual positions, flying with 2 engines on one side, 3 engine > take offs, stalls, spins of even a loop or barrel roll. Enough said. maybe > too much. > Best Wishes, > Jack R. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 13:33:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:33:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oscar Bocsch (Was 303rd-KIA) Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5CEC@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Kevin and all, I also have had the honor of seeing Oscar Bocsch perform for us here in NJ at the Sussex Airshow many times. It is truly amazing what he does with glider in a small section of airspace using loops dives and turns in silent flight. The Sussex Airshow takes place the last weekend in August every year, although many acts have disappeared over the years it's still the greatest "Little" airshow around. Also if you can still find a copy of "Warbirds Illustrated No. 31" titled "Air War over GERMANY" By the late Jeffery L. Ethell, you will find a few of Mr. Bocesch's personal photos taken of and by him during WW II. Page 11 has him sitting on the wing of his FW-190 in Leipzig in October 1944, you can really see the size of that radial engine Kevin spoke of! Another one on page 14 shows him stepping into his FW-190 - Black 14. And there is a group photo of him and his fellow pilots from 14 Staffel JG3 based in Gutersloh in December 1944. Just seeing the look of these guys on the ground is enough to say to yourself "glad I didn't tangle with these guys at 20.00 feet!". Todd (303rd A-637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 14:09:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:09:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Suit Message-ID: <76.c9b70d8.2875c124@aol.com> To Bill Heller, Thanks Dear Friend for the information about command pilot training. If I was aware of this I had forgotten it. All I ever got was flying student gunners 8 hours per day 6 days per week. Half of it was at 150 feet so I learned to make steep turns without losing any altitude. When I started to answer your letter my computer went off and I lost it. I wanted to tell you I sat on my flak suit too, BUT I carried a spare one and wore it sometime too. like on the bomb run or when we went to Merseburg. All the aerobatic experience I got in B17s was when I was test flying or slow timing new engines and I thought I was violating all the rules in the book. I did a lot of this duty in the Yuma AZ gunnery school and quite a lot after I got in the 303rd. I also horsed around quite a lot when I took War weary B17s to the scrap pile at Kingman AZ after the CONFLICT was over and you were boring holes in the atmosphere with new airliners. We flew to Kingman with 2 man crews. One old copilot and one young engineer. Some of the birds were quite new like less than 50 hours. It made you sad. I took several old B17s there that were from our 303rd One was VK I Item in which I had flown 10 or 12 missions. That was real sad like putting your old dog to sleep. Best Wishes Bill, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 14:25:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:25:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oscar Bocsch (Was 303rd-KIA) Message-ID: Todd: Thanks for the comments on Bosch! The last time I interviewed Oskar, he was 82. And he still had "Horrido," that fighting spirit. You can just see that spirit in his eyes, and hear it in his voice. Like the American crews that flew again Bosch, he is a living legend. Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oscar Bocsch (Was 303rd-KIA) >Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:33:14 -0400 > >Kevin and all, > I also have had the honor of seeing Oscar Bocsch perform for us here >in >NJ at the Sussex Airshow many times. It is truly amazing what he does with >glider in a small section of airspace using loops dives and turns in silent >flight. The Sussex Airshow takes place the last weekend in August every >year, although many acts have disappeared over the years it's still the >greatest "Little" airshow around. > Also if you can still find a copy of "Warbirds Illustrated No. 31" >titled "Air War over GERMANY" By the late Jeffery L. Ethell, you will find >a >few of Mr. Bocesch's personal photos taken of and by him during WW II. Page >11 has him sitting on the wing of his FW-190 in Leipzig in October 1944, >you >can really see the size of that radial engine Kevin spoke of! Another one >on >page 14 shows him stepping into his FW-190 - Black 14. And there is a group >photo of him and his fellow pilots from 14 Staffel JG3 based in Gutersloh >in >December 1944. Just seeing the look of these guys on the ground is enough >to >say to yourself "glad I didn't tangle with these guys at 20.00 feet!". >Todd (303rd A-637) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 14:32:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:32:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position Message-ID: Jack and Harry: Just a guess here about the 6:1 ratio of copilots to pilots killed. It's probably just the luck of the draw, but didn't the copilots move about the plane more than any other crew member - to help wounded, take walk around oxygen bottles where needed, replenish ammunition? Maybe because the copilot was moving about, he was more suceptible to being hit. Just a guess guys. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Most Dangerous position >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:51:18 EDT > >Harry, Thank you for your report on the KIA that returned to Molesworth. I >would think the Navigator and The Bombardier in the nose would be about >equal >but the 3 and 6 could be just a coincidence with such small numbers. What >struck me as revealing was the 6 and 1 ratio of pilots and copilots. I can >think of no reason why their risk of being killed would not be equal After >thinking about this I reach a probable reason that is not to flattering to >us >copilots. If any crew member is killed or wounded there must be some >damage, >major or minor, to the aircraft. If one of the pilots is killed it falls on >the other pilot to get the damaged bird home. It appears from your study >that >that us copilots were not very successful in this calling. I suppose it is >not surprising when we realize that most copilots had no, zero, not any 4 >engine time when they were assigned to a crew. Some I'm sure had no >multiengine time at all. A majority of the crews that were lost went down >on >their first 12 missions. This tells us something but 56 (59) years too >late. >Thanks again Harry (One of us two) > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 14:45:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:45:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: Duke: Oskar was able to pilfer a bicycle immediately after escaping from the Russians. He rode it for less than one day when one of the tires blew. So, he took off both tires and rode it on the rims!!! He was about half way through Germany when a group of Russians took the bike from him, of course, he had already changed out of his Luftwaffe uniform, but was "very concerned" he would be detained, so he just gave them the bike. Then he hiked the rest of the way home on foot. I asked Oscar why did he fought to the very end, why didn't he just give up to the Americans like so many other Germans did? He said he was a patriot and it was HIS country the Allies had invaded and he would fight and die if necessary. He said the thought never occured to him or any of his other fellow pilots to just walk away at the 11th hour. As he said to me, "Kevin, what if it had been America? Would you have fought to the very end?" Another interesting point about Bosch from his interview is that had he not collided with the YAK-9 on 6May45, he and his girlfriend (now his wife) were going to fly to Austria in his FW 190. He knew the war was over at that point, but he was never willing to conceed defeat until the bitter and bloody end. What, you say, he and his soon to be wife in a 190? Yes, there was a radio compartment on the left side of the aircraft immediately behind the cockpit and they planned to remove the radios and put her in there for the trip. Kevin >From: "Duke Drewry" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA >Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 16:05:14 -0500 > >Kevin, >Mr. Bosch indeed sounds like quite the man and surely an interesting >person to talk to.. I hope he has written a book of his exploits. Just >the part about hiking 1000 km (I think that's over 600 miles isn't it) only >3 days after severly banging up a knee is remarkable. I've never been >there but it doesn't seem like Austria would have very friendly hiking >terrain even for a healthy person. Then again, it seems that all our >ancestors accomplished feats we would never think of attempting. If there >is such a book could you let us know? >Thanks, >Duke > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 14:53:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:53:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA Message-ID: No problem, Jack, I just hope I did not sound condecending in my reply. There is a 447th BG(H) waist gunner, Joseph M. Jameson, that lives a few miles north of St. Joseph who spent every minute he could trying to learn how to fly. First, he just wanted to learn to fly, and second, he had crawled into the cockpit of a B-17 at Rattlesden where both pilots had been killed by an exploding 20 or 30 mm. He said after he saw that, and thinking about what he would do if that happened to his pilot or copilot, the only choice was to learn to fly, because he sure as hell wasn't going to bail out over Germany if all four engines were still turning. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd BG-KIA >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:40:59 EDT > >Kevin, I should have said,:It never happened in the 303 to the best of my >knowledge. I don't pretend to know about the other bomb groups or B 24s. > Bless you my boy, if it's not illegal now, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 18:52:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:52:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar and ramming a plane Message-ID: List, In one of the earlier emails it said that Oskar Bosch rammed or collided with enemy a/c. How does one ram/collide and survive? Not just once, but four times? Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 19:14:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:14:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar and ramming a plane Message-ID: The first time he rammed a B-24 with his wingtip and took off one of the horizontal stabilizers on the 24. He chopped off the tail of a B-26 with his prop and the other two times I do not know. Kevin >From: "Tooley, Dave" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar and ramming a plane >Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:52:51 -0500 > >List, >In one of the earlier emails it said that Oskar Bosch rammed or collided >with enemy a/c. How does one ram/collide and survive? Not just once, but >four times? > >Dave Tooley > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jul 5 20:28:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:28:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #324 - 9 msgs Message-ID: <110.1e800d3.287619ef@aol.com> --part1_110.1e800d3.287619ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Guys, Some of the talks have been about flying skills and the training of other crew members to take over if necessary. This reminded me of a night flight Scotts crew made for training, I don't remember the details of why, but They put me in the tail to watch for other planes. I got very sleepy and called the pilot after awhile and asked him when we were going to land. He said look out side, we were going down the runway. I never felt the plane touch down. I asked Scott who was flying and he said our new pilot. "Irish" our flight engineer. Best landing I ever experienced in a fort. I had a good feeling that others could handle the plane as well. --part1_110.1e800d3.287619ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Guys,
Some of the talks have been about flying skills and the training of other
crew members to take over if necessary.  This reminded me of a night flight
Scotts crew made for training, I don't remember the details of why, but They
put me in the tail to watch for other planes. I got very sleepy and called
the pilot after awhile and asked him when we were going to land. He said look
out side, we were going down the runway. I never felt the plane touch down. I
asked Scott who was flying and he said our new pilot. "Irish" our flight
engineer. Best landing I ever experienced in a fort. I had a good feeling
that others could handle the plane as well. --part1_110.1e800d3.287619ef_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 01:01:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:01:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F vs B-17G Message-ID: <3B449D51.13155.D3D73A@localhost> A former curator of the Hill AFB Air Museum (now retired) once told me that flying a B-17G was totally different than flying a B-17F. He said they were "like two entirely different planes." I know how they differ in looks, but from a pilot's point of view, was there really much difference in flying them? Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 00:18:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:18:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar and ramming a plane Message-ID: Sturm Staffeln flew especially modified and strengthened aircraft for this specific purpose of ramming. Larry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 01:33:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:33:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #324 mes.#2 Message-ID: <12c.10047b4.28766141@aol.com> --part1_12c.10047b4.28766141_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I went through B-17 school at Lockbourne in Columbus Ohio after I had already finished 38 missions (25 combat). I had a 2nd Lt. as my instructor. I had the same experience with C-54 type aircraft...after 280+ Berlin Airlift missions, I was sent to C-54 school at Great Falls. Seems the Air Force did everything backwards...I already had heavy experience before I was sent to the schools to train on such aircraft. Cheers..Bill Bergeron --part1_12c.10047b4.28766141_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
  I went through B-17 school at Lockbourne in Columbus Ohio after I had
already finished 38 missions (25 combat). I had a 2nd Lt. as my instructor. I
had the same experience with C-54 type aircraft...after 280+ Berlin Airlift
missions, I was sent to C-54 school at Great Falls. Seems the Air Force did
everything backwards...I already had heavy experience before I was sent to
the schools to train on such aircraft.
Cheers..Bill Bergeron --part1_12c.10047b4.28766141_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 02:35:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:35:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F vs B-17G Message-ID: <103.5aaf2a0.28766ff1@aol.com> Gary, From my point of view as pilot there was very little difference in flying a B17F and a B17G. I would say there was more but very little differences between high time and low time planes, & engines, who made it, Boeing, Douglas or Vega. The kind of instruments in it. Sperry or Jack & Heinz and how much major repairs had been done like wing changes etc. I vote the Curator was wrong. Probably some others will disagree with me. I hope Bill Heller and Harry Gobrecht do not. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 03:33:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:33:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17F vs B-17G References: <103.5aaf2a0.28766ff1@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c105c4$03f373e0$70f833cf@richards> Jack: I agree I flew 35 missions in 1944 June - Oct. Flew both Fand G models . Then after the war I flew B17 in the 3171st Electronics Research Sqdrn out of Griffis Afb in Rome N.Y. Flew on Cloud seeding and Atomic Bomb Research and many Electronics missions Every B17 I ever flew was a great Aircraft. "Spider" Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17F vs B-17G > Gary, From my point of view as pilot there was very little difference in > flying a B17F and a B17G. I would say there was more but very little > differences between high time and low time planes, & engines, who made it, > Boeing, Douglas or Vega. The kind of instruments in it. Sperry or Jack & > Heinz and how much major repairs had been done like wing changes etc. I vote > the Curator was wrong. Probably some others will disagree with me. I hope > Bill Heller and Harry Gobrecht do not. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 08:24:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:24:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar and ramming a plane References: Message-ID: <3B4567B1.21260B25@attglobal.net> The so-called ramming by the Luftwaffe was not like the kamikaze ... they did have a system and used old airplanes with which to do it. The ramming was done in such a manner that the pilot arranged to depart his aircraft just at the point of contact or a little before. It was very risky, but they did NOT do suicide ramming as a practice. Only if some pilot was nuts enough. It was NOT a planned system of defense. During ten years with Lufhansa and meeting and becoming close friends with a lot of the German aces against whom we flew ... I was able to glean a lot of info. Especially anent the ramming since it was a rumour that such was done. NOT SO. Only in the manner which I mentioned. WCH "Tooley, Dave" wrote: > List, > In one of the earlier emails it said that Oskar Bosch rammed or collided > with enemy a/c. How does one ram/collide and survive? Not just once, but > four times? > > Dave Tooley > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jul 6 08:30:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:30:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #324 mes.#2 References: <12c.10047b4.28766141@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B45690C.7BAA00E8@attglobal.net> --------------4AD7C536DDCFAC2AAD5CF039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Bergie! What do you expect from a government run by a bunch of characters with room temperature IQs ... ? WCH Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > To All, > I went through B-17 school at Lockbourne in Columbus Ohio after I > had > already finished 38 missions (25 combat). I had a 2nd Lt. as my > instructor. I > had the same experience with C-54 type aircraft...after 280+ Berlin > Airlift > missions, I was sent to C-54 school at Great Falls. Seems the Air > Force did > everything backwards...I already had heavy experience before I was > sent to > the schools to train on such aircraft. > Cheers..Bill Bergeron --------------4AD7C536DDCFAC2AAD5CF039 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Bergie! What do you expect from a government run by a bunch of characters with room temperature IQs ... ?

WCH

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
  I went through B-17 school at Lockbourne in Columbus Ohio after I had
already finished 38 missions (25 combat). I had a 2nd Lt. as my instructor. I
had the same experience with C-54 type aircraft...after 280+ Berlin Airlift
missions, I was sent to C-54 school at Great Falls. Seems the Air Force did
everythi