From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 00:02:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:02:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <56.5446379.2781209f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A4F6690.21068.1D21727@localhost> > Somewhere in my collection I have a > photo of the crash of 050 Old Thunderbird with four guys standing iin front > of the wing....hope to locate it and push it up on the computer and possibly > have you identify the men shown. That would be great, Bob. I haven't seen that one. Good luck with our search. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 17:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:07:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D Message-ID: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Gentlemen, I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, NM and began B-17 training. My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some of them have gone on to fighter training? Still cold and foggy here-- :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 17:55:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:55:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D In-Reply-To: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Message-ID: <3A507E4D.10761.64B4067@localhost> > Gentlemen, > I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos > of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in > the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- > 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of > Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. > After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, > NM and began B-17 training. > > My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire > class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some > of them have gone on to fighter training? While the veterans are answering this interesting question, I thought I'd add a related question. My father went through aviation cadet training about a year before this, ie class of 42-D. He went through the training at the "Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center", which was located in Texas (actually several different locations in the Texas/OK area were apparently involved in different phases). Anyway, I don't know if it is true, but I have been told, that in 1941, when my father started the training there (ie before we officially entered the war), that supposedly the Texas facility was the only place where this training was done, but that after the war started, that several other facilities were started. I was told that in 41, that the Texas school was something similar to one of the military academies, but for pilots. Does anyone know if this is true? Ie did anyone go through the training in 1941, at a location other than in Texas? I know that several of the pilots who graduated with my father went on to other training facilities, and became instructors. My father was an instructor both at one of the fields associated with Maxwell AFB, and later went to Bainbridge Ga. He was an instructor for 2 years before finally getting checked out in B-17s at Hendricks Field at Sebring Florida, and joining the 303rd. Relative to your question though, Gary, I have this one picture (see several pictures associated with the cadet training at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/training.html ), which was taken on Dec 8 1941 (ie the day after Pearl Harbor I think), and the people who signed the picture made comments like "watch out for the Japs", etc, seemingly indicating that they assumed that they would end up as fighter pilots in the Pacific. So I think that the Cadet training was just general one and two engine flying, and the 4- engine transition, B-17 training was separate.... at least in 1941. So I think that the graduates went all sorts of different directions. I have also heard that later in the war, ie in the 1944 time frame, that there were too many pilots, and many of the graduates were given alternative training as other crew positions, like Bombadier or Navigator, etc., and didn't even become pilots. Hopefully, some of the guys who went through it all will comment, but I was interested in whether the training situation was different in 41-42 than it was in 43-44. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 19:43:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:43:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D Message-ID: gary ,my class later , at santa anna had sever5al different directions of grads. spec. of course that was a later more time. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 18:44:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:44:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D References: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Message-ID: <002601c074ec$0fa131a0$4ff833cf@richards> Gary: The class of 43d would have been spread over many air bases each graduating over 200 students . Living in Hemet I know that Hemet Ryan field was a primary training base your Dad would have gone on to Basic training in BT13s probably and then on to advanced either in Twin Engine or single engine Training. Then on to Hobbs for B17 training usually after being assigned to a crew. I graduated from advanced Training at Blytheville Ark. in class 44b . most of us went to Salt Lake City after a short leave, and then were assigned to a crew and we went to Ardmore Oklahoma for B17 crew training. When we finished at Ardmore we went to Kearney Nebraska and picked up a B17 which we flew over the Atlantic to England where we were supposed to land at St Andrews Scotland but it was fogged in and we went back and landed in Nuts Corner Ireland .The next day we Flew our B17 to a depot in southern England where we sadly gave it up.Hope this helped you. " Spider"Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D > Gentlemen, > I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos > of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in > the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- > 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of > Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. > After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, > NM and began B-17 training. > > My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire > class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some > of them have gone on to fighter training? > > Still cold and foggy here-- :-) > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 19:24:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:24:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D In-Reply-To: <002601c074ec$0fa131a0$4ff833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3A51C87E.9356.19E6CA@localhost> > The class of 43d would have been spread over many air bases each graduating > over 200 students . Living in Hemet I know that Hemet Ryan field was a > primary training base your Dad would have gone on to Basic training in BT13s > probably and then on to advanced either in Twin Engine or single engine > Training. Then on to Hobbs for B17 training usually after being assigned to > a crew. Spider, Thanks..... I know there are hundreds of men in 43-D from many bases. Dad went to pre-flight in Santa Ana. I know that those in pre-flight went all over the place, some to fighter training and some to bomber training. From there, he went to Hemet. I assume those who were at Hemet together all went on the rest of the way together and ended up in B-17s. I put their "yearbook" up here: http://www.b17thunderbird.com/43d/ I believe they all went from Hemet to Minter to Roswell to Hobbs. Does that make sense? Thanks for the help! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 19:28:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kimotek, Frank (OTS-EDH)) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:28:56 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <113C22F0C0AFD1119BCC00805F9FB64206D777E4@mxibs1.ibs.uscs.com> Hello, My name is Frank Kimotek, actually junior. My dad was in the 358th. An old high school friend found the web site while looking me up. I never knew my dad. My mother and him divorced when I was about 1 year old, and never got in touch with him. We have been in touch with his sister, Louise for the past 5 years off and on. I live in Orangevale, Ca with my wife Sally, and two children Chris 16 and Devon 14. I have been in the Information Technology industry for 25 years. I would be interested in any more photos or stories about him from any surviving crew members Thanks Frank Kimotek From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 20:35:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:35:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:50:45 -0700 Message-ID: <12392-3A523BA4-25806@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> That is why my stay at Hill AFB lasted from Septmber of 1972 until April of 1973. I retired to get away from there. I was in snow from september until April. The day I drove out it was still snowing. At least you will get to enjoy the olympics. Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 22:36:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:36:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #115 - 3 msgs Message-ID: I can only speak for my class, Gary, 43-H. We split from multi engine to single engine when we left Basic Flight Training. I went to two engine Advanced Flight Training then to B-17 training after graduation. I hope this is of somehelp to you.but I kind of doubt that it will answer your question. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 22:43:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:43:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Garys Book& info Message-ID: --part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, Referencing your message of January 1st, 2001... I was a 43-D class from Blackland Army Flying School in Waco, Texas in April of 1943. We were delayed for about six months..congress passed a law making the 43-D class "Army United States" instead of reserve commission. I made cadet status in February of 43 and was called back from leave in August of 43 and sent to upper Kelly (Lackland Basic Training) class, then to Pinebluff Arkansas, Greenville Texas and then to Waco Texas. The 43-D class had over 10, 000 students. I had asked for B-17 combat training and was sent to Moses Lake Washington, then Edmond Oregon and then on to Grand Island Nebraska. I got on as copilot with Lt.L.E. Jokerst's crew and flew to England, arriving 27 June of 43. My first three missions were 15th, 16th and 17th of April. 17. April 17, being a Schweinfurt mission p.s. ..... we only had one day with ice on the trees last year(last month), after being born and raised in Michigan, I thankfully retired south of the snow line. Noone knows what snow looks like in San Antonio. My son has one of the few rare pictures of the Alamo with snow on it, taken back in 1985. cheers.. Bergie Lt.Col. Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron USAF (Ret.) --part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary,
Referencing your message of January 1st, 2001...
      I was a 43-D class from Blackland Army Flying School in Waco, Texas in
April of 1943. We were delayed for about six months..congress passed a law
making the 43-D class "Army United States" instead of reserve commission. I
made cadet status in February of 43 and was called back from leave in August
of 43 and sent to upper Kelly (Lackland Basic Training) class, then to
Pinebluff Arkansas, Greenville Texas and then to Waco Texas. The 43-D class
had over 10, 000 students.
      I had asked for B-17 combat training and was sent to Moses Lake
Washington, then Edmond Oregon and then on to Grand Island Nebraska. I got on
as copilot with Lt.L.E. Jokerst's crew and flew to England, arriving 27 June
of 43. My first three missions were 15th, 16th and 17th of April. 17.  April
17, being a Schweinfurt mission
p.s. ..... we only had one day with ice on the trees last year(last month),
after being born and raised in Michigan, I thankfully retired south of the
snow line. Noone knows what snow looks like in San Antonio. My son has one of
the few rare pictures of the Alamo with snow on it, taken back in 1985.
cheers.. Bergie
Lt.Col. Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron
USAF (Ret.)

--part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:07:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:07:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Announcement Message-ID: <75.e5de3f5.2783e37c@aol.com> --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the 303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information and pictures. Please check it out. The address is < http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Take care......................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the
303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new
web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information
and pictures. Please check it out. The address is <
http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl>   Take care......................Ford J.
Lauer III --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:44:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:44:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Announcement In-Reply-To: <75.e5de3f5.2783e37c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A522F8C.13046.1AC8515@localhost> Ford, Glad you put that online. I'll link to you from the 303rd page. Looks like you have some bad links for the Bio, photos, ect. It looks like you have them set up for your own system, but not relative to your ISP. Take a look at it online and you'll see. I may steal that photo of your grandfather for our web page, if you don't mind, > My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the > 303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new > web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information > and pictures. Please check it out. The address is < > http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Take care......................Ford J. > Lauer III > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:52:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:52:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. He was born in Empress, Alberta, Canada in 1917, to American immigrants. His father, Clarence Evan Alton, died from the Spanish Flu in 1919. He finished high school, and then rode in rodeos, worked with horses, while residing in California, and Alberta, throughout the Thirties. He volunteered first for the Canadian Army, in 1941, and subsequently volunteered and transferred to the American forces, where he was given his choice of service, and picked the USAAF. After training, he shipped overseas to the ETO in July of 1943, and was assigned to the 91st Bomb Group, 323rd Bomb Squadron. He flew missions throughout the month of Sept. '43, from Station 121, Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. He was shot down on a mission to Frankfurt, Germany, on Oct. 4, '43, and interned in Stalag XVIIB, Krems, Austria, until his release from a temporary camp near Braunau, Austria, after a forced march ahead of the Russians, on May 3rd, 1945. He was returned to the USA in June of '45, and volunteered to go overseas to the PTO. After a months leave, he was getting ready to ship out in Sept. '45, from San Francisco. The Japanese surrender brought about a change in his situation, and he asked for, and was given, his release from the American forces. He was given an honorable discharge in Oct. '45, and returned to Canada, where his mother (Florence Edna Alton, 1895-1983) still resided. He bought a horse on his return to Canada, and raises Pintos, and then Appaloosas, until 1998. He established a construction company, Alton Homes, in Red Deer, Alberta, in late 1945, which he ran until his retirement in 1980. He will be sadly missed by his family. Thank you to all of you who have helped in the search for his wartime activities over the last few years, with photos, maps, records, and eye-witness reports. He sure appreciated the help, in the twilight of his life, and loved you all for it. God bless you Dad, on this, your final flight, You have touched us all that knew you, With your smiles, your chuckles, and your good humor through it all. Your love and your guidance were, and will be, my succor. You led the exciting life that I will always envy, but mostly admire. When I hear the sound of an airplane engine flying high in the sky, Or the whinny of a horse, and the laugh of a little boy with his father, I will think of you, Dad, and smile, and remember those times we shared. You were, and always will be, my hero. I will miss you so very, very, much. Gordon Alton, Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 04:08:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:08:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight In-Reply-To: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A524336.9291.1F955A7@localhost> > > It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle > Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. Gordy, On behalf of the 303rd Bomb Group Association, please accept our deepest sympathies. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 04:44:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:44:50 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight References: <3A524336.9291.1F955A7@localhost> Message-ID: <011701c0753f$e8544480$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Thank you, Gary, and all who are writing tonight. It sure is appreciated. I will pass all of these kind notes on to my family. Gordy. ****************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "Gordon Alton" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight > > > > It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle > > Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. > > Gordy, > On behalf of the 303rd Bomb Group Association, please accept > our deepest sympathies. > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 06:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:07:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: Gordy: We are all sad with you. It grieves us all when one of us passes on and we become one fewer, Our deepest sympathy to you and your family. You can be very proud of him. He served us all extremely well. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 13:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:07:10 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight In-Reply-To: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: Gordy - I am but one of millions of Americans that owe their freedom to Donald Alton and the other airmen of the 8th that paid the price for that freedom. We all take a moment to mourn the passing of your father, and one last time say thank you. Brian McGuire RAF Molesworth -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:25 AM To: Whit Warhill; Walter Kast; Vince Hemmings AL; Verne E. Woods FM 324; Trixtex@aol.com; Tom Hovis AM; Steve Perri; Steve Pena; Sam Harris 401; Sam Halpert FM 324; Roy Fratz FM 401; Roger Armstrong 401; Robert H. Friedman LM 323; Robert Dickson 322; Robert Dandoy 401; Robert Cleveland FM 324; Robert Bercu 324; Ray R. Ward 322; Ray Darling FM 324; Ray Bowden PR; Phil Lunt 401; Paul Chryst; Paul Adams AL; Norman D. Stuckey LM 324; Nelson Hillock FM 322; Mike Banta; Mick Hanou AL; Marion Hoffman; Mal & Pauline Tuohy 322; Lowell Getz AM; Lon Gaston LM 401; Leonard Contreras AM; Leland Forsblad FM 323rd; John W. Howland LM 324; John O'Leary 401; Joe Vukovich 322; Joe Harlick LM 324; Joe Frankie LM 323; Jim Shepherd AM; Jim Sanders FM 401; Jim Hoffman FM 323; Jeff Martin AM; Jack Paget LM 401; Hubert Donohue FM 323; Harry "Doug" Tanner AM; Harold W. Lasch 322; Gordy Alton AM; Gerry and Meg Asher AM; George W. Shook LM 322; George Parrish 401st; George Jacobs LM 324; G. Paul Lynch 324; Fred Cravello 401; Frank Farr 322 323; Ferd A. Koch FM 323; Evan Zillmer 324; Eugene Earl "Lucky" Brown 324; Earl Pate FM 324; Donald Bird 401; Don Freer; David Lomasney AL; Darrell Gillett 1stCBW; DALEWWII@aol.com; Dale Jensen AM; Conrad Lohoefer 401; Cliff and Barb Schultz; Chuck Brewick 323rd; Chris Johnson; Charlie Hudson; Charlie Busa; Charles Harper AM; Charles F Sturgeon FM 322; Charles E. Walker; Carol Thomas; Bill Duffy LM 323; BevnBus@aol.com; Bert Humphries; Bernie E. Stanton FM 401; B17TAIL@aol.com; Asay B. Johnson LM 324; Armond Lehman FM 322; Armand and Peggy Battista 322; Andrew Caswell 324; Andrew "Andy" Anderson LM 322nd.; A. J. Sinibaldo; Paul Limm 401 Cc: HEAVY EXTRA; Heavy Bombers; Howard Dell; 303rd Bomb Group Talk List; Jake Howland; A. J. Sinibaldo; Ace Johnson; Allan K. Chapman; Allison Pena; Andy Hartles; Battleax3@aol.com; Bernie E. Stanton; 'Bud' Cloren Meade; Carol Thomas; Charles E. Walker; Chris Johnson; Cliff and Barb Schultz; Dale Darling; David Lomasney; Don Sheeler; Donald Wellings; Donna Craig; Edward Emerton; Eric Dominicus; Ferd Koch; George Jacobs; Gerry and Meg Asher; Gordy Alton; ILSLEYFIN@aol.com; Jack Bowen; Jim Hoffman; Jim Lahood; Jim Shepherd; Joe Harlick; Kevin Pearson; Lkpzee@aol.com; Loraine Darling; Lowell Getz; Malcolm Hale; Marion Hoffman; Marv; Maxine Provan; Nigel Viney; Paul Chryst; Peter Williams; Phil Starcer; Richard Galley; Sam Halpert; Samuel Harris; Seymour B. Gold; Stan Wray Jr.; Steve Pena; Stevemjs@aol.com; Verne Woods; wehmig@email.msn.com; Combatvets.net list; Charles D. Petrie; markus@ecofuel.com; Par in Sweden; Pierre in Belgium; Vinnie O'Mahoney; Tony Wood; Tomislav Haramincic; Simon Parry; Ruy Horta; Richard T. Eger; Rabe Anton; Philippe Willaume; Peter Evans; Pawel Burchard; Mitchell Williamson; Mike Wenger; Mikael Olrog; Kim Chetwyn; Kari Lumppio; John Beaman; Jim Spaw; Jim Perry; Jim Bowden; Jes Touvdal; Jason Long; Jan Bobek; Jamie Iverson; James D. Hatch; Jaap Woortman; Guy Finch; Greg Kopchuk; Gary Webster; Frank Olynyk; Dr. David Ransome; Denes Bernad; David D. Brown; Dan O'Connell; Carl-Fredrik Geust; Brett Green; Bob Rinder; Bertrand Hugot; Artie Bob; Arthur L. Bentley; Andreas Brekken; Alexander W. Hohl; Vincent Kermorgant; Cheryl E. Davis; Claudio Becker; Ed McKenzie; Rita Jackson; Colin and Lynda Sims; Colin & Wendy; Rick & Lynell; Kim Young; Don Cooper; Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel; Gardner's; Glenn and Judy Willett; Harold 'Bud' Schmidt; Harry Crosby; Jaap Woortman; Jan-Olov; Mario Isack; Markus Reisner; Marnée Beauvais; Mike Yamada; Niel Rissler; Paul Kusch; Penny Durant; Rene Lachartre; Rex Rees; Robert Converse; Roland Geiger; Ron Harlow; Ron Hexum; Roy Butler; Ben; Uwe Wiedemann; Zvi Avidror Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. He was born in Empress, Alberta, Canada in 1917, to American immigrants. His father, Clarence Evan Alton, died from the Spanish Flu in 1919. He finished high school, and then rode in rodeos, worked with horses, while residing in California, and Alberta, throughout the Thirties. He volunteered first for the Canadian Army, in 1941, and subsequently volunteered and transferred to the American forces, where he was given his choice of service, and picked the USAAF. After training, he shipped overseas to the ETO in July of 1943, and was assigned to the 91st Bomb Group, 323rd Bomb Squadron. He flew missions throughout the month of Sept. '43, from Station 121, Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. He was shot down on a mission to Frankfurt, Germany, on Oct. 4, '43, and interned in Stalag XVIIB, Krems, Austria, until his release from a temporary camp near Braunau, Austria, after a forced march ahead of the Russians, on May 3rd, 1945. He was returned to the USA in June of '45, and volunteered to go overseas to the PTO. After a months leave, he was getting ready to ship out in Sept. '45, from San Francisco. The Japanese surrender brought about a change in his situation, and he asked for, and was given, his release from the American forces. He was given an honorable discharge in Oct. '45, and returned to Canada, where his mother (Florence Edna Alton, 1895-1983) still resided. He bought a horse on his return to Canada, and raises Pintos, and then Appaloosas, until 1998. He established a construction company, Alton Homes, in Red Deer, Alberta, in late 1945, which he ran until his retirement in 1980. He will be sadly missed by his family. Thank you to all of you who have helped in the search for his wartime activities over the last few years, with photos, maps, records, and eye-witness reports. He sure appreciated the help, in the twilight of his life, and loved you all for it. God bless you Dad, on this, your final flight, You have touched us all that knew you, With your smiles, your chuckles, and your good humor through it all. Your love and your guidance were, and will be, my succor. You led the exciting life that I will always envy, but mostly admire. When I hear the sound of an airplane engine flying high in the sky, Or the whinny of a horse, and the laugh of a little boy with his father, I will think of you, Dad, and smile, and remember those times we shared. You were, and always will be, my hero. I will miss you so very, very, much. Gordon Alton, Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 15:06:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:06:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: <6c.684d431.27849a12@aol.com> Our sincere sympathies are with you in the passing of your Dad. Warm regards, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:00:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:00:31 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ford Lauer Announcement Message-ID: --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have the web site working now. Try it again. Please be patient, this web page creating is new to me. By all means, please use anything from the site you want to. Those pictures are history. I don't consider any of them to be my property. They belong to every American. Thanks...................Ford Lauer --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have the web site working now. Try it again. Please be patient,
this web page creating is new to me. By all means, please use anything from
the site you want to. Those pictures are history. I don't consider any of
them to be my property. They belong to every American.
Thanks...................Ford Lauer --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:12:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:12:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which Message-ID: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:28:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:28:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <3A530CE0.9387.2AC857@localhost> > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > Matt, Looks like that is the 390th BG. There is a great web page that will tell you everything like that here: http://www.heavybombers.com/tails.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:32:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:32:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #116 - 14 msgs Message-ID: Gordy, It was said many years before McArthur said it,"Old soldiers never die, they just fade away." Although we expect to lose our loved ones, we are never ready for it to happen. Please accept my condolences and heartfelt sympathy. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:45:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:45:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt: That would be the 452nd Bombardment Group (Heavy, 3rd Air Division, based at Deopham Green. Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:47:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Gary, the 390th Bombardment Group (Heavy) always carried the tail marking of Square J while in the ETO. Square L was the 452nd BG(H) at Deopham Green. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:46 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > Matt, Looks like that is the 390th BG. There is a great web page that will tell you everything like that here: http://www.heavybombers.com/tails.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:41:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A531DFF.1066.6DA9D2@localhost> > Hey Gary, the 390th Bombardment Group (Heavy) always carried the tail > marking of Square J while in the ETO. Square L was the 452nd BG(H) at > Deopham Green. Whoops! Guess I better take another look at the alphabet. :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 20:16:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:16:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Frank Kimotek Message-ID: --part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, My name is Vicki Sykes. My Great-Uncle David Miller, was the tailgunner on your father's crew. I have quite a bit of information about the crew and also some pictures. If you go to the 303rd web page and look up Monahan's crew you will see some crew pictures there. Also a photo of the memorial my husband and I had made to honor the crew. It is at the 8th Air force museum in Savannah. I will email you with some of the info I have. Vicki Sykes --part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank,

My name is Vicki Sykes. My Great-Uncle David Miller, was the tailgunner on
your father's crew. I have quite a bit of information about the crew and also
some pictures. If you go to the 303rd web page and look up Monahan's crew you
will see some crew pictures there. Also a photo of the memorial my husband
and I had made to honor the crew. It is at the 8th Air force museum in
Savannah. I will email you with some of the info I have.   

Vicki Sykes

--part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 20:19:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:19:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks Gary! Message-ID: <47.5a538a5.2784e337@aol.com> --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to post a public "Thanks again" to Gary Moncur for helping 303rd members and family members connect. This is the third time in the past 3 or 4 months the web page has helped me connect with family members of my Uncle's crew. Keep up the good work. Vicki Sykes --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to post a public "Thanks again"  to Gary Moncur for helping 303rd
members and family members connect. This is the third time in the past 3 or 4
months the web page has helped me connect with  family members of my Uncle's
crew. Keep up the good work. Vicki Sykes --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 22:36:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:36:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Message-ID: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their = screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to about = July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The primary = job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators and = multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most = of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large red = brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't know the connection BUT = Victorville had=20 BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable pitch props] when I was = there from=20 April to about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. = The=20 primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight = vault], Navigators and=20 multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of=20 the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large red=20 brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 23:24:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:24:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 References: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000c01c075dc$5d9d03c0$54f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maurice: I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in class 44B . We lost 20 class members = to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a brick. In our graduating = class of 320 pilots 20 went to Catalina training for Air Sea Rescue, = 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s all as = copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat losses = went . Happy New Year=20 Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember = their screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to = about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The = primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators = and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large = red brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maurice:
 I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in = class 44B .=20 We lost 20 class members to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a = brick.=20 In our graduating class of 320 pilots  20 went to Catalina training = for Air=20 Sea Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s = all as=20 copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat losses = went=20 .
 Happy New Year
      Spider=20 Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 2:36=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S = MESSAGE NO=20 !----1-3-2001

Don't know the connection BUT=20 Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable = pitch=20 props] when I was there from April to about July or August of '42 [to = lazy to=20 look up my intinerary]. The primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the = bomb=20 sight vault], Navigators and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - = Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most of the accidents were with the = AT-9s=20 ---Glide angle of a large red brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I = leave
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 23:07:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:07:52 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which References: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <008f01c075da$0263f740$720110ac@Betac.com> 452nd Bomb Group, 3rd Bomb Division/Air Division, Deopham Green Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Petersen To: 303rd <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > > Matt Petersen > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 00:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:12:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5b.100473ed.278519e0@aol.com> --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our sympathies to you and you family. We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers. Keane family --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our sympathies to you and you family.  
  We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers.
                                                      Keane family --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 01:15:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:15:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <5b.100473ed.278519e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c075eb$c74005c0$6e8af4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Our sympathies to you and you family. =20 We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers.=20 Keane family=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the kind words. They are = appreciated.
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 4:12=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no = subject)

Our = sympathies to you=20 and you family.  
  We will remember your dad and = your=20 family in our prayers.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =       Keane=20 family ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 02:14:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:14:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ford Lauer Announcement Message-ID: send your web site info again as i want to viewibsp[ec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 07:10:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:10:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <3A5421E4.68E4@oro.net> A question to Bombardiers - I am curious when and why toggliers were employed and if they ever used the bombsight or dropped on visual to the lead aircraft? My best regards to all you 303rd members. Richard Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 07:55:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 02:55:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 14:00:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:00:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010104.080028.-353895.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Rich, I was a bombardier with the 303rd Bomb Group (Hell's Angels) and flew fourteen missions late in the war-l945. The last three as a deputy lead. In the 360th squadron we always had a lead and two deputies. The first deputy was assigned to the high element and the second deputy to the low. On all of my missions we did salvo on the lead ship drop. In the B-17G we could space the bombs on the ground up to 750 feet. Our maximum load inside the Bombay was 12 - 500lb bombs, 16 - 250lb bombs and 24 - 100lb bombs or it could be a mixture of these. The three lead ships carried bomb sights. Formation bombing was more effective and did not require a bombardier in each plane. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 15:35:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:35:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which Message-ID: Gary, do your extensive records show a 303 Bombardier (Sq.???) named Anson Cherry, 2/Lt. as having been at Molesworth. Supposedly before I was able to search him out, he went down. He was a Carlsbad AAF grad, class 44-8, wings 6/10/44. Any help much appreciated. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 17:17:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:17:18 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - Interesting. Was it the Group (wing, squadron) lead/dep lead that carried the sights? Wasn't there any concern that if both aircraft were lost the formation had no one to drop on? Brian McGuire Molesworth -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:10 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 00:14:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:14:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in the high element. I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with them to share their firepower. When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where they were going to hit or what. Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 06:35:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:35:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Thanks to you Jack Rencher and Bill Runnels for your explanations to my queries on the role of toggliers and too the process of bomb spacing. I must guess this position came into being sometime in '44 as your book "Might in Flight" begins to use the term toggliers during this time period. So too, might I suppose this practice led you to have some reserve of bombardiers? ;-) Incidentally, my father-in-law John Hand did some instructing at Big Spring, Texas AAFBS in '43 & '44. Might anyone from 303rd have attended this school? Best regards and many thanks, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Richard Young A249 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 10:34:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:34:56 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - Thank you! I have learned an awful lot from the 303rd Talk, stuff I hadn't run across in books. Serendipitously this Gary Moncur intiative is capturing a lot of information that will be of value to future historians. Best wishes. Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:27 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in the high element. I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with them to share their firepower. When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where they were going to hit or what. Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 12:51:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:51:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 References: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> <000c01c075dc$5d9d03c0$54f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <006f01c07716$33adfc00$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My father trained multi-engine on B-24's and then ended up flying = B-17's in the 303rd. He told me that a B-24 required all four engines to = fly but a B-17 could make it on one, he told me if, it had to. ;-)=20 Matt Petersen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick Smith=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Maurice: I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in class 44B . We lost 20 class = members to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a brick. In our = graduating class of 320 pilots 20 went to Catalina training for Air Sea = Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s all = as copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat = losses went . Happy New Year=20 Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember = their screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to = about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The = primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators = and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large = red brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My father trained multi-engine on = B-24's=20 and then ended up flying B-17's in the 303rd. He told me that a B-24 = required=20 all four engines to fly but a B-17 could make it on one, he told me if, = it had=20 to. ;-)
 
Matt Petersen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dick = Smith
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 6:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = SPIDER'S=20 MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001

Maurice:
 I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark = in class 44B=20 . We lost 20 class members to that airplane ,you're right it glided = like a=20 brick. In our graduating class of 320 pilots  20 went to Catalina = training for Air Sea Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) = 150=20 went to B17s all as copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as = far as=20 combat losses went .
 Happy New Year
      Spider = Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice Paulk=20
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 2:36=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = SPIDER'S MESSAGE=20 NO !----1-3-2001

Don't know the connection BUT=20 Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable = pitch=20 props] when I was there from April to about July or August of '42 = [to lazy=20 to look up my intinerary]. The primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded = the=20 bomb sight vault], Navigators and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis = AT9s -=20 Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most of the accidents were with = the AT-9s=20 ---Glide angle of a large red brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I=20 leave
------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 13:05:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:05:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier References: Message-ID: <008b01c07718$33a2c680$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> That's interesting about toggliers. I had always thought that only one or two of the planes carried the Nordon bombsight and that the rest where equipped with a simple sight, a telescope with a protractor attached. This way in the event that both ships equipped with the Nordon bombsight where to be lost, the designated target could still be bombed, just not with a great deal of accuracy. Matt Petersen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 5:34 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] togglier > Jack - > Thank you! I have learned an awful lot from the 303rd Talk, stuff I hadn't > run across in books. Serendipitously this Gary Moncur intiative is capturing > a lot of information that will be of value to future historians. > > Best wishes. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:27 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > > > Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. > It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or > possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The > deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of > four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in > the high element. > > I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot > down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if > possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet > (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with > them to share their firepower. > > When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a > city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. > You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but > there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. > You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with > no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have > bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The > official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You > must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where > they were going to hit or what. > > Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 13:52:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:52:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A558B68.1330.51B99A@localhost> > Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. > It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or > possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The > deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of > four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in > the high element. Sorry to add to the above nice first hand description, but I wanted to comment on a couple things that had confused me, but I've figured out from the reading I have done. I think that the above description applies to later in the war, and although there were 4 squadrons in the 303rd, they usually only flew three of them any one day... although from the records I've seen, it looks like it was quite common for one of the three flying squadrons to be composed of planes from the squadron that wasn't flying that day. Apparently earlier in the war, the flying box was composed of planes from the 3 squadrons flying that day, typically 7 planes from each squadron. This was a bit confusing to me at first, and I'm still not positive that I have it right, but I think I'm close. The microfilm records that I have been reading show for the early months of the war (ie late 42-mid 43) an old journal style notebook, in which the notes for each mission were entered by hand. This notebook describes squadrons made up sometimes of only 8 crews, and on a typical mission 3 of the 4 squadrons would put up 6 or 7 planes to form one of the flights of the box, one or 2 crews being given a rest. Later in the war, the boxes went from 21 to 13, and were typically composed of planes from a single squadron, and the squadrons had enough crews so that they didn't have to every time the squadron flew, typically only every other or every third mission. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that early in the war, the independent unit that flew in formation was the group, composed of 3 flights, while later in the war, the independent unit that flew in formation was the squadron. > When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a > city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. > You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but In the squadron my father flew in, they had the PFF radar on the lead plane, and GH radio direction finding (similar to Loran) on the deputy plane. From what I've heard, the GH could be quite accurate if they had stations to triangulate off that weren't too far away. I have some bomb run plots from PFF runs, that show that the PFF had the capability of working pretty well when there were rivers and coastlines near the target, since they showed up better. However when the targets were assigned, they usually assigned a secondary and tertiary target, which were often the same location but using either PFF or GH. Ie the primary target might be as certain plant in a town using the optical bomb sight, while the secondary target might be an airport in the same town using GH, or a shipyard using PFF, or something like that. On at least one occasion, my father's squadron did not have working GH equipment, which was requirred for the secondary target, so he brought his squadron in behind the lead squadron, and bombed off them. On another mission, I read about, the lead squadron had an equipment failure, and was given directions on when to turn and bomb, etc from one of the trailing squadrons (I haven't a clue at how that could be done... Ie the low squadron took over the lead, and helped the lead squadron get to the target from behind...) > there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. > You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with > no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have > bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The > official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". Again, I think things changed with this respect at different times during the war. I saw some official directives from late in the war, that told crews to be absolutely positive about your target, or bring the bombs back, with threats of being courts martialed for failure to comply. I think later in the war, when the ground troops were advancing, they didn't want crews dropping bombs on our own troops. Whereas earlier in the war crews could be pretty sure that targets of opportunity were enemy. Again, sorry for adding second hand info to the above, but I thought it might be helpful. Hopefully, the people who served at different times during the war, can comment on how things were different early and late in the war. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 14:25:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:25:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack: This is an excellent reply to the original question and one which I have posed to several bombardiers over the years. I have been told that when the intervolometer was used to space out the bomb pattern, this was called "dropping in train," as opposed to the salvo method desribed in Jacks reply. In watching film footage from the war, is is very apparent that both methods were employed. What comes to mind is the film Memphis Belle when they are dropping over the target at Wilhelmshaven. You can visually see the 2,000 pounders dropping in train. Another question for you Jack. Marker flares were also used, were they not, by the lead ships over the target? As following squadrons and groups crossed the path of the marker flares, they too would then drop. Did you ever employ this methods of bombing? By the way, the Germans had a Norden bombsight in August of 1942 and didn't figure it out until the Spring of 1943. The gryro stabalizers threw them for a loop. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:12 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 14:40:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:40:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares Message-ID: <20010105.084015.-272425.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Kevin, The first two bombs out of the lead ship were markers. Just like the vapor trails to the target area, the markers helped following groups to locate the target. The markers were not to accurate as they would drift with the wind but they were of assistance in that they enabled you to fine tune your target search. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:13:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:13:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <3e.5ad04a1.27873e84@aol.com> Didn't know your father-in-law John Hand, but I graduated class 44-8, Carlsbad AAFB on June 10,'44. Cheers, Bob Hand, 303/360, Fink's Crew, 35 m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:27:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:27:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew how. After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there and you usually made just one landing per each approach, Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when I am wearing my padded jacket. Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:30:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:30:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <35.efd090f.27874287@aol.com> Tall Story No. 1128-B: Bombardier toggled load on PFF leader, bottom two 500 pounders hung up the rest of the load. Bombardier arranged with waist gunner to release load with screwdriver into shackle upon his signal. Bombardier then triangulated drop angle using knee over toe method, intercommed gunner to release load when he zeroed in on marshalling yard below. Gunner complied, triggering hung-up bomb which set whole bomb load screaming out of the bomb bay. Bombs hit RR depot below scoring creditable damage. Pilot wrote up scene, bombardier got another cluster on his Air Medal, waist gunner got DFC for "beyond line of duty" action....leaving one highly pissed-off bombardier. C'est la guerre. Cheers, Bob Hand (303/360, Fink's Crew, Bombardier, 35 m.) Incident reported to me first person by fellow graduate. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:59:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:59:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a question I have long wondered about, but have feared offending you. Flak over some of the cities in Occupied Europe I have been told was murderous. Are any of you aware of any crews who ever jettisoned their bombs so they would not have to fly through all the flak? I have also heard that some groups would fly over a target not once, but sometimes two or three times if the target was obscured. Did crews ever jettison to avoid going back over the target? And what were the penalties if a crew or Bombardier got caught doing this - court marshall? Not everyone who flew with the 8th was a brave sort. I have encountered many, many crew members who have said that, "we had this one guy who just couldn't take it and they moved him out." I've always wondered where they moved these men to? Were they reassigned within the group, moved to a headquarters unit, or were they humiliated and thrown out of the Air Corps? Kevin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 16:42:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:42:34 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - And the other is.........? Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 3:40 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew how. After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there and you usually made just one landing per each approach, Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when I am wearing my padded jacket. Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 19:35:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <20010105193517.29579.qmail@web9307.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, According to my father (Al Hollritt 303rd/427th) when they operated PFF B-17G's out of Chelveston with the 305th BG leading the 41st CBW, the aircraft they had Flare pistols mounted in the radio room that they would fire when "Bombs away" was announced. He remembers on one raid one discharged into the aircraft filling the B-17G with thick smoke nose to tail, He said the pilot had all he could do to keep the fortress in formation, Being a lead aircraft kept them away from the other B-17's who looked on in amusement at the bomber with what must have looked like it had a wood burning stove inside! > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin, > The first two bombs out of the lead ship were > markers. Just like the > vapor trails to the target area, the markers helped > following groups to > locate the target. The markers were not to accurate > as they would drift > with the wind but they were of assistance in that > they enabled you to > fine tune your target search. > Bill Runnels > > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two > best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 19:38:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot Message-ID: <20010105193857.79708.qmail@web9303.mail.yahoo.com> > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two > best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. Your Co-Pilot was the second best because he had to fit in the cockpit with that huge head in the way! Hee Hee :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 20:18:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:18:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010105.141842.-345457.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Rich, Your guess on when they started using toggliers is probably a good one. The policy was in effect when I got there in January 1945. However I doubt that there ever was a very large reserve of bombardiers. I graduated in class 44-13 and I don't think there was more that one or two classes at Midland Advanced Bombardier School after that. FYI the training period for a bombardier was 13 months. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 22:18:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:18:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot Message-ID: <5d.57111fc.2787a226@aol.com> Hay HEE HEE, I was the copilot. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 23:27:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:27:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <6e.69a6b9e.2787b259@aol.com> richard young. some of us as toggliers attended and were schooled in use of norden bomb sight ,just so we could activate bomb relaeases in event lead craft was unable. my training was at lowery air field two in denver,col. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 00:53:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:53:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <3b.eb65d0d.2787c67c@aol.com> Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 01:41:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:41:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty 8th! new computer game! Message-ID: <003d01c07781$bdceb120$afd14e0c@jack> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to all... If any of you guys are into computer gaming, Microprose just came out = with "B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty 8th! You need a pretty good system to run it, but its well worth it. I had my = Dad George (359th) playing it and he was moved by how realistic it was. It lets you choose from many historical missions. It lets you take on = any position in the plane, and I mean any! if you happen in the waist = gunner position and a bunch of FW-190's come screaming by with guns = blazing, well.... lets just say you'll get goosebumps. And you also = better drop those bombs at the right time! Its the closest this = generation will get to being there. If you were a pilot, you will not = believe the manual control settings, and it also lets you fly the = "little friends" or even take the controls of a FW-190 and see it from = there perspective as they headed into a formation.=20 Here's the web sight for more info and pictures... = http://www.b17flyingfortress.com/b17.html If anyone gets it or has it, let me know what you think.. Thanks... Jack Turkel {Family member) ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi to all...
 
 
If any of you guys are into computer = gaming,=20 Microprose just came out with "B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty=20 8th!
You need a pretty good system to run = it, but its=20 well worth it. I had my Dad George (359th) playing it and he was moved = by how=20 realistic it was.
It lets you choose from many historical = missions.=20 It lets you take on any position in the plane, and I mean any!  if = you=20 happen in the waist gunner position and a bunch of FW-190's come = screaming by=20 with guns blazing, well....  lets just say you'll get goosebumps. = And you=20 also better drop those bombs at the right time!  Its the closest = this=20 generation will get to being there.  If you were a pilot, you will = not=20 believe the manual control settings, and it also lets you fly the = "little=20 friends" or even take the controls of a FW-190 and see it from there = perspective=20 as they headed into a formation.
 
 
Here's the web sight for more info and=20 pictures...  http://www.b17flyingfo= rtress.com/b17.html
 
 
If anyone gets it or has it, let me = know what you=20 think..
 
Thanks...
 
Jack Turkel {Family=20 member)
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 09:54:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 04:54:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: <005d01c077c6$acfa7920$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Since, your on the subject of bombing targets, I have question. Did the Germans ever build a factory near a hospital, school, stalag, etc., in such close proximity that bombing the target would evoke the risk of hitting any of those places? It's not a favorable thing to kill civilians and bears out USAAF directives not to just release bombs when a target of opportunity wasn't available. I was once told about the use of timed bombs on railroad yards. The bomb was designed to penetrate into the ground, an acid vile would break that would eat away at a piece of lead triggering the bomb to explode. The bomb was stopped from use because it would go off and kill civilian workers, employed to repair the damaged railroad tracks. Yes, granted you couldn't keep a B-17 flying indefinitely on one engine but it would glide for some time. The B-24 on the hand would begin to drop at the lost of the first engine from what I understand. It was mainly due to the design of the planes. The B-24 had a wing with a high lift design, requiring a greater speed to maintain flight. The design gave the B-24 the ability to carry a greater bomb load but at the same time made it vulnerable to a higher stall speed. The B-17 wing design was capable of a lower stall speed allowing it to maintain flight at a lower speed. The down side of this is that the load that the B-17 was capable of carrying wasn't as great. The impression I received from my father was that he preferred the B-17 over the B-24 for the reasons given above and that the B-17 got him through his tour of duty. I know personally that I've gotten a great deal out this web site and 303rd talk site. Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 15:18:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:18:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: <20010106.091820.-354715.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Matt, Regarding time delayed bombs, arming vane tail fuses M123A1 used with 250lb general purpose bombs and M124A1 used with 500lb bombs provided a delay action of from 1 to 144 hours. Another feature of these fuses was that the slightest attempt to unscrew them would detonate the bomb. They were considered dangerous to carry by the crews. As a bombardier I was happy that we didn't have to use them on any of my missions in 1945. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 04:23:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:23:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: Hi Matt On the subject of delayed fuses on bombs, I know that if your plane had some delayed action fused bombs in the bomb bay, even though the mission was scrubbed, the crew had to fly to the wash off the east cost and drop them in the water, since they could not be removed by the ground crews. We had this experience several times when the mission was scrubbed due to bad weather on the continent or for some other reason.. Ray Calenberg 303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 04:50:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:50:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: <42.f07992b.27894fa2@aol.com> Ray: I wondered why you Guys bombed us all the time. A. Fish, and Wife, Formally of The Wash, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:00:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:00:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: Ever hear the rumor that Glen Miller was done in by Wash-aimed bombs that fell on the Norseman he was passenger in? Signed: Rumor Monger, Bob H. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:31:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:31:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: Hate to mention this, but war after all is war, and our bombs were dropped to inflict the most damage possible, regardless of people on ground. Hence the dropping of a mixture of instantaneous explosives, delayed action bombs, delayed incendiaries and frags. In no way did the flak batteries below seek to knock out the bombardier on each aircraft... that's for sure. One of the many propaganda films shown to us during our stay had to do with seeking nonmilitary objects in ground-strafing, and showed tracers from an attacking Mustang following a figure pushing a baby carriage up a street. The audio advised that such actions were intolerable and that the pilot in this case was now doing time in Leavenworth. But....and this is a qualified but....how do we know that this figure wasn't an SS officer in drag running a pram full of ammo. The Feb.3/45 raid to Berlin supposedly killed 25,000 refugees, which was a turning point in the war. I'm sure that civilians outnumbered the military in that regrettable, hideous bodycount. War is hell, but I wonder if we will ever learn our lesson. Bob Hand, Fink's Crew Bombardier, 303/360, 35m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:48:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:48:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Message-ID: : That's a great story and one that I have heard from several who flew combat actually happened. Fighters or flak knocked of the stowage hatch door for the raft and out she tumbled. One radio operator, Preston Peterson, 385th BG, said one wrapped around the horizontal stabalizer and he used a flare to BURN it off! Pretty unbelievable, but if they were out of ammo, well maybe. Preston I think embelished the truth on several occasions during my interviews!! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:07 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:47:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:47:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Bill L Runnels 's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:18:41 -0600 Message-ID: <12481-3A58D5CC-92@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bil Runnels I question your statement that the bombardier course was 14 months. I went thru pre-flight at Santa Ana in four months, Bombardier school at Deming in three months (43-4) Navigation School at San Marcos (43-10) all in 12 months including travel time. Was in England in 14 months frrom the time I originally left home to become an Aviation cadet. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:52:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:52:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Todd Hollritt 's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:35:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <12474-3A58D710-970@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I flew more than 20 missions in a PFF aircraft and don't ever remember firing flares at "Bombs Away. Nor do I ever remember looking on in amusement when another B-17 had a fire on board." Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 21:18:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:18:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Rich 's message of Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:10:42 -0800 Message-ID: <12471-3A58DD27-1983@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Can you imagine what would have happened if all the bombardiers in the formation were working on the bombsight on the bomb run at the same time? Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:04:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:04:28 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <001401c078f5$cf52bac0$2abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mention was made a while back of a lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a = precautionary measure to keep the sight from the Germans. Question - was = there a=20 self -destruct device in the Norden bomb sight just in case that = particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C supply sgt. = heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault guard = duty in Victorville, I never did see one of them . That doesn't mean = much either as issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = they looked like.[ Took better than year I think!]=20 THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mention was made a while back of a=20 lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a precautionary measure to = keep the=20 sight from the Germans. Question - was there a
self -destruct device in the Norden = bomb sight just=20 in case that particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C = supply=20 sgt. heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault = guard duty=20 in Victorville, I never did see  one of them . That doesn't = mean much=20 either as  issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = they looked=20 like.[ Took better than year I think!] 
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:00:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:00:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.160019.-449659.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hal, The referenced 13 month period was from the first day of Basic Training to Graduation from Advanced Bombardier School. As I recall the Navigator training was 15 months and the pilot was 18 months. Regards, Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:09:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:09:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.160907.-449659.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Hal, It might have improved the results. HA Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:19:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:19:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <20010107.161934.-449659.2.billrunnels@juno.com> Maurice, In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden sight were well known by the enemy. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:41:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Len Hjalmarson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:41:29 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT In-Reply-To: <20010107.161934.-449659.2.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000401c078fa$f9ff7740$65014118@klht1.bc.wave.home.com> > In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This > late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden > sight were well known by the enemy. The Germans had the Norden in hand in 1943. It may have been a bit earlier, but I'd have to check my sources. Anyone know the firm date? The British discovered this before the US knew about it, via their possession of the Enigma device, but they didn't share the information immediately with the US for fear of a breach of security. Len From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:41:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:41:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Bill & Hal, There are 52 weeks in a year. At least that's the way I remember. I was flying B17s just about 32 Weeks after I got to classification, as a civilian,in Santa Anna and I went through a P38 Advanced before I got demoted to B17s. We did train about 9 weeks as a B17 crew, but that wouldn't get us near the 18 months quoted. Just for your information, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:13:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:13:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares References: <3b.eb65d0d.2787c67c@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c078ff$8ddc6a00$83b34d0c@netzero> Dear Bob, there are many intricacies about the set-up of the B-17 that I wonder about. Having made a bloody nuisance of myself over the past couple of years, I have held back from asking questions. Bits and pieces come together for me when you guys volunteer the minutia. Thanks , and happy new year, sir. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: > Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an > inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly > rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to > steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said > rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably > altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the > presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully > shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an > untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob > Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:42:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:42:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions References: Message-ID: <001b01c07903$7da37120$83b34d0c@netzero> Kevin, (if you learn differently let me know)...The information that I have indicates that in the set up of the formations, every aircraft was committed to salvo from the leader. To jettison a bomb load as you have described would entail the endangerment to the force and independent maneuvering to avoid flak would entail greater risk than the benefit derived. I'll bet there were alot of "puckered arses" and many will admit to a very fine line between cowards and heros. If you didn't get the job done the first time, then you'd just have to go back and do the job again. Questions like yours should be asked, and answered honestly by the men that were there, but I doubt seriously that there is any justifiable validity for doubt with respect to the reality. As ever, Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions > Here is a question I have long wondered about, but have feared offending > you. Flak over some of the cities in Occupied Europe I have been told was > murderous. Are any of you aware of any crews who ever jettisoned their > bombs so they would not have to fly through all the flak? I have also heard > that some groups would fly over a target not once, but sometimes two or > three times if the target was obscured. Did crews ever jettison to avoid > going back over the target? And what were the penalties if a crew or > Bombardier got caught doing this - court marshall? > > Not everyone who flew with the 8th was a brave sort. I have encountered > many, many crew members who have said that, "we had this one guy who just > couldn't take it and they moved him out." I've always wondered where they > moved these men to? Were they reassigned within the group, moved to a > headquarters unit, or were they humiliated and thrown out of the Air Corps? > > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:47:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:47:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.175300.-367181.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, Thanks for the info. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 00:00:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:00:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier References: Message-ID: <002301c07906$08793620$83b34d0c@netzero> Jack, humility is not the forte of a damned good pilot. I recommend that you brag like a banshee, and keep sharing your experiences and expertise. In that way, idiots like me will not have to ask irreverant questions. You guys were there, alot of us weren't; and the History Channel , tho of great value in remembrance, gets alot of the real facts wrong. Happy New Year, my friend. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the > same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the > 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb > sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were > the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the > Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to > the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. > > Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high > priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. > Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was > going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, > Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take > off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added > the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long > runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve > enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it > wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both > outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew > how. > > After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit > they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the > engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster > below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there > and you usually made just one landing per each approach, > Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when > I am wearing my padded jacket. > > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 04:22:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Wanda Shepherd) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:22:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton Message-ID: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Hi, My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 09:41:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:41:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton In-Reply-To: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108043841.00a99100@home.1usa.com> Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.htm At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who >served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his >medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in >April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth >Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March >of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that >would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. >I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. >Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that >looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone >can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big >gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a >birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the >other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a >picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 09:50:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:50:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108043841.00a99100@home.1usa.com> References: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108044947.00a99730@home.1usa.com> At 04:41 AM 1/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. >http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.html >At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi, >> My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who >>served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his >>medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in >>April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth >>Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March >>of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that >>would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. >>I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. >>Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that >>looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone >>can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big >>gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a >>birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the >>other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a >>picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>303rd-Talk mailing list >>303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 15:10:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:10:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <80.53ab99c.278b3282@aol.com> Ask and thou shalt receive....glad to oblige. Happy New Year.....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 17:42:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:42:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My comments Message-ID: <003b01c0799a$63f1f660$f99a46c6@fory> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having read many msg's on many subjects, I would like to add my = recollections. As RO on Kuykendalls crew(360th), we did 30 missions. The last 20 were = in lead position. I was a "chaff" sgt on first 10. My job was to also watch that bomb bay was clear and was aware of the = smoke bombs on those last 20. I also recall only 3 sqdns ---a high, low = and lead formation comprised our mission. I never saw a red handle in any acft I flew in. I am so glad we never = ditched. I did shoot off a bunch of flares on our 30th. It sure spread = out our forrmation. We were on way home from that target. Do I qualify as togglier? I had to trigger two hung bombs one time. I = also had to run a K-28(?) camera from the camera well, send a bomb = strike report and check the bomb bay. Also had a Mickey Operator for = company many times. Only 3 of the 10 on our crew are left. Well, the second gunner was taken = from us upon arrival in 360th. Do not know what happened to him but he = is not in roster book. I enjoy the talk each day, Thanks Gary. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having read many msg's on many = subjects, I would=20 like to add my recollections.
As RO on Kuykendalls crew(360th), we = did 30=20 missions. The last 20 were in lead position. I was a "chaff" sgt on = first=20 10.
 
My job was to also watch that bomb bay = was clear=20 and was aware of the smoke bombs on those last 20. I also recall only 3 = sqdns=20 ---a high, low and lead formation comprised our mission.
I never saw a red handle in any acft I = flew in.=20 I am so glad we never ditched. I did shoot off a bunch of flares on our = 30th. It=20 sure spread out our forrmation. We were on way home from that=20 target.
Do I qualify as togglier? I had to = trigger two=20 hung bombs one time. I also had to run a K-28(?) camera from the camera = well,=20 send a bomb strike report and check the bomb bay.  Also had a = Mickey=20 Operator for company many times.
Only 3 of the 10 on our crew are left. = Well, the=20 second gunner was taken from us upon arrival in 360th. Do not know what = happened=20 to him but he is not in roster book.
I enjoy the talk each day, Thanks=20 Gary.
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 21:34:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:34:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" Message-ID: <002201c079ba$d3ced780$5abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had a new man come into the A/C Supply in middle or late 1944 that = sported a set of gunners wings on hus tunic. It was rumored he ask for = a transfer. I don't know if he came from a replacement pool or if he was = transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He never wore the = wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to question = him. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We had a new man come into the A/C = Supply in=20 middle  or late 1944 that sported a set of gunners wings on hus = tunic. It=20 was rumored he ask for a transfer. I don't know if he came from a = replacement=20 pool or if he was transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He = never=20 wore the wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to = question=20 him.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 21:36:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:36:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C07987.4B7B6DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maurice:  I've heard many crews say thay had "this one guy who just couldn't take it."  And they all seem embarrased by that fact and no one knows what happened to these guys.  More curiosity than anything.  Hope I'm not "stepping on any toes" by asking. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Maurice Paulk Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 3:34 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" We had a new man come into the A/C Supply in middle  or late 1944 that sported a set of gunners wings on hus tunic. It was rumored he ask for a transfer. I don't know if he came from a replacement pool or if he was transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He never wore the wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to question him.   THE MOUNTAIN MAN           a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C07987.4B7B6DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maurice:  I've heard many crews say thay = had "this=20 one guy who just couldn't take it."  And they all seem embarrased = by that=20 fact and no one knows what happened to these guys.  More curiosity = than=20 anything.  Hope I'm not "stepping on any toes" by=20 asking.
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Maurice Paulk
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 = 3:34=20 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: = [303rd-Talk] KEVIN=20 PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT"

We had a new man come into the A/C = Supply in=20 middle  or late 1944 that sported a set of gunners wings on hus = tunic. It=20 was rumored he ask for a transfer. I don't know if he came from a = replacement=20 pool or if he was transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. = He never=20 wore the wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to = question him.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I = leave
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C07987.4B7B6DE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 23:20:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:20:16 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot References: <5d.57111fc.2787a226@aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c079c9$90512bc0$46f833cf@richards> Jack: So was I and I was so good that I got to Fly a second tour in P51s HE_HE_HE_ HO_HO_HO Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot > Hay HEE HEE, > I was the copilot. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 23:31:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:31:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets References: <005d01c077c6$acfa7920$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <003c01c079cb$322ff6a0$46f833cf@richards> Matt : Another hellish thing about the B24 ( The Box the B17 came In) was the fuel manifold in the wing which all the tanks fed into and all the engines fed off of . It was a large diameter pipe that stretched over the whole center section of the wing from the No 1 to the No4 engine ,it was not self sealing like our tanks and was very susceptible to bursting into flame when hit. This we see all the time in combat movies of the BOX. Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Petersen" To: "303rd" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 1:54 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets > Since, your on the subject of bombing targets, I have question. Did the > Germans ever build a factory near a hospital, school, stalag, etc., in such > close proximity that bombing the target would evoke the risk of hitting any > of those places? It's not a favorable thing to kill civilians and bears out > USAAF directives not to just release bombs when a target of opportunity > wasn't available. I was once told about the use of timed bombs on railroad > yards. The bomb was designed to penetrate into the ground, an acid vile > would break that would eat away at a piece of lead triggering the bomb to > explode. The bomb was stopped from use because it would go off and kill > civilian workers, employed to repair the damaged railroad tracks. > > Yes, granted you couldn't keep a B-17 flying indefinitely on one engine > but it would glide for some time. The B-24 on the hand would begin to drop > at the lost of the first engine from what I understand. It was mainly due to > the design of the planes. The B-24 had a wing with a high lift design, > requiring a greater speed to maintain flight. The design gave the B-24 the > ability to carry a greater bomb load but at the same time made it vulnerable > to a higher stall speed. The B-17 wing design was capable of a lower stall > speed allowing it to maintain flight at a lower speed. The down side of this > is that the load that the B-17 was capable of carrying wasn't as great. The > impression I received from my father was that he preferred the B-17 over the > B-24 for the reasons given above and that the B-17 got him through his tour > of duty. I know personally that I've gotten a great deal out this web site > and 303rd talk site. > > Matt Petersen > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 9 02:01:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Wanda Shepherd) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:01:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #121 - 20 msgs References: <20010108170410.BE84653674@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3A5A710C.7A6BAAB2@zoomnet.net> Thank you very much. Did anyone out there ever serve with him? Or know him? Does anyone know if they were ever stationed at Patterson Air Force Base in 1943? It's now called Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio. Thank you, Wanda 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs (Bhandsr@aol.com) > 2. Re: Location of targets (Bhandsr@aol.com) > 3. RE: Re:Marker Flares (Kevin Pearson) > 4. Re: togglier (Harold Susskind) > 5. Re: Re:Marker Flares (Harold Susskind) > 6. Re: togglier (Harold Susskind) > 7. NORDEN BOMB SIGHT (Maurice Paulk) > 8. Re: togglier (Bill L Runnels) > 9. Re: togglier (Bill L Runnels) > 10. Re: NORDEN BOMB SIGHT (Bill L Runnels) > 11. RE: NORDEN BOMB SIGHT (Len Hjalmarson) > 12. Re: togglier (Jprencher@aol.com) > 13. Re: Re:Marker Flares (Lloyd J H Grant) > 14. Re: RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions (Lloyd J H Grant) > 15. Re: togglier (Bill L Runnels) > 16. Re: togglier (Lloyd J H Grant) > 17. Ed Helton (Wanda Shepherd) > 18. Re: Ed Helton (Edward L Frank) > 19. Re: Ed Helton (Edward L Frank) > 20. Re: Re:Marker Flares (Bhandsr@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:00:51 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ever hear the rumor that Glen Miller was done in by Wash-aimed bombs that > fell on the Norseman he was passenger in? Signed: Rumor Monger, Bob H. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:31:18 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hate to mention this, but war after all is war, and our bombs were dropped to > inflict the most damage possible, regardless of people on ground. Hence the > dropping of a mixture of instantaneous explosives, delayed action bombs, > delayed incendiaries and frags. In no way did the flak batteries below seek > to knock out the bombardier on each aircraft... that's for sure. One of the > many propaganda films shown to us during our stay had to do with seeking > nonmilitary objects in ground-strafing, and showed tracers from an attacking > Mustang following a figure pushing a baby carriage up a street. The audio > advised that such actions were intolerable and that the pilot in this case > was now doing time in Leavenworth. But....and this is a qualified but....how > do we know that this figure wasn't an SS officer in drag running a pram full > of ammo. The Feb.3/45 raid to Berlin supposedly killed 25,000 refugees, > which was a turning point in the war. I'm sure that civilians outnumbered > the military in that regrettable, hideous bodycount. War is hell, but I > wonder if we will ever learn our lesson. Bob Hand, Fink's Crew Bombardier, > 303/360, 35m. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:48:32 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > : That's a great story and one that I have heard from several who flew > combat actually happened. Fighters or flak knocked of the stowage hatch > door for the raft and out she tumbled. One radio operator, Preston > Peterson, 385th BG, said one wrapped around the horizontal stabalizer and he > used a flare to BURN it off! Pretty unbelievable, but if they were out of > ammo, well maybe. Preston I think embelished the truth on several occasions > during my interviews!! > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:07 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > > Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: > Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed > an > inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly > rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to > steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said > rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably > altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the > presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully > shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an > untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob > Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:47:08 -0600 (CST) > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bil Runnels I question your statement that the bombardier course was 14 > months. I went thru pre-flight at Santa Ana in four months, Bombardier > school at Deming in three months (43-4) Navigation School at San Marcos > (43-10) all in 12 months including travel time. Was in England in 14 > months frrom the time I originally left home to become an Aviation > cadet. Hal Susskind > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:52:32 -0600 (CST) > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I flew more than 20 missions in a PFF aircraft and don't ever remember > firing flares at "Bombs Away. Nor do I ever remember looking on in > amusement when another B-17 had a fire on board." Hal Susskind > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:18:31 -0600 (CST) > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Can you imagine what would have happened if all the bombardiers in the > formation were working on the bombsight on the bomb run at the same > time? Hal Susskind > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Maurice Paulk" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:04:28 -0600 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Mention was made a while back of a lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a = > precautionary measure to keep the sight from the Germans. Question - was = > there a=20 > self -destruct device in the Norden bomb sight just in case that = > particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C supply sgt. = > heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault guard = > duty in Victorville, I never did see one of them . That doesn't mean = > much either as issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = > they looked like.[ Took better than year I think!]=20 > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. > Maurice J. Paulk > 205 W 12th St > Wood River, NE -68883-9164 > 308-583-2583 > EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! > Some when I arrive - > MOST when I leave > > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Mention was made a while back of a=20 > lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a precautionary measure to = > keep the=20 > sight from the Germans. Question - was there a
>
self -destruct device in the Norden = > bomb sight just=20 > in case that particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C = > supply=20 > sgt. heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault = > guard duty=20 > in Victorville, I never did see  one of them . That doesn't = > mean much=20 > either as  issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = > they looked=20 > like.[ Took better than year I think!] 
>
 
>
THE MOUNTAIN=20 > MAN
          a. k.=20 > a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 > -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = > I=20 > arrive -
MOST when I leave
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:00:19 -0600 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hal, > The referenced 13 month period was from the first day of Basic Training > to Graduation from Advanced Bombardier School. As I recall the Navigator > training was 15 months and the pilot was 18 months. > Regards, > Bill > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:09:06 -0600 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hal, > It might have improved the results. HA > Bill Runnels > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:19:33 -0600 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Maurice, > In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This > late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden > sight were well known by the enemy. > Bill Runnels > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: "Len Hjalmarson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:41:29 -0800 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This > > late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden > > sight were well known by the enemy. > > The Germans had the Norden in hand in 1943. It may have been a bit > earlier, but I'd have to check my sources. Anyone know the firm date? The > British discovered this before the US knew about it, via their possession of > the Enigma device, but they didn't share the information immediately with > the US for fear of a breach of security. > > Len > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:41:28 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill & Hal, > There are 52 weeks in a year. At least that's the way I remember. I was > flying B17s just about 32 Weeks after I got to classification, as a > civilian,in Santa Anna and I went through a P38 Advanced before I got demoted > to B17s. We did train about 9 weeks as a B17 crew, but that wouldn't get us > near the 18 months quoted. > Just for your information, > Jack > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:13:49 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dear Bob, there are many intricacies about the set-up of the B-17 that I > wonder about. Having made a bloody nuisance of myself over the past couple > of years, I have held back from asking questions. Bits and pieces come > together for me when you guys volunteer the minutia. Thanks , and happy new > year, sir. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > > > Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: > > Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed > an > > inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly > > rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort > to > > steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said > > rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, > considerably > > altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the > > presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and > artfully > > shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an > > untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, > Bob > > Hand > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 14 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:42:24 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin, (if you learn differently let me know)...The information that I have > indicates that in the set up of the formations, every aircraft was committed > to salvo from the leader. To jettison a bomb load as you have described > would entail the endangerment to the force and independent maneuvering to > avoid flak would entail greater risk than the benefit derived. I'll bet > there were alot of "puckered arses" and many will admit to a very fine line > between cowards and heros. If you didn't get the job done the first time, > then you'd just have to go back and do the job again. Questions like yours > should be asked, and answered honestly by the men that were there, but I > doubt seriously that there is any justifiable validity for doubt with > respect to the reality. As ever, Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:59 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions > > > Here is a question I have long wondered about, but have feared offending > > you. Flak over some of the cities in Occupied Europe I have been told was > > murderous. Are any of you aware of any crews who ever jettisoned their > > bombs so they would not have to fly through all the flak? I have also > heard > > that some groups would fly over a target not once, but sometimes two or > > three times if the target was obscured. Did crews ever jettison to avoid > > going back over the target? And what were the penalties if a crew or > > Bombardier got caught doing this - court marshall? > > > > Not everyone who flew with the 8th was a brave sort. I have encountered > > many, many crew members who have said that, "we had this one guy who just > > couldn't take it and they moved him out." I've always wondered where they > > moved these men to? Were they reassigned within the group, moved to a > > headquarters unit, or were they humiliated and thrown out of the Air > Corps? > > > > Kevin > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 15 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:47:27 -0600 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Jack, > Thanks for the info. > Bill > > --__--__-- > > Message: 16 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:00:33 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Jack, humility is not the forte of a damned good pilot. I recommend that > you brag like a banshee, and keep sharing your experiences and expertise. > In that way, idiots like me will not have to ask irreverant questions. You > guys were there, alot of us weren't; and the History Channel , tho of great > value in remembrance, gets alot of the real facts wrong. Happy New Year, my > friend. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > > > I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in > the > > same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the > > 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate > bomb > > sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead > were > > the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion > the > > Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to > > the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. > > > > Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high > > priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. > > Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was > > going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill > Heller, > > Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to > take > > off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and > added > > the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very > long > > runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had > nerve > > enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if > it > > wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both > > outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew > > how. > > > > After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must > admit > > they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have > the > > engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit > faster > > below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back > there > > and you usually made just one landing per each approach, > > Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad > when > > I am wearing my padded jacket. > > > > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots > in > > the 8th Air Force. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:22:03 -0500 > From: Wanda Shepherd > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi, > My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who > served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his > medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in > April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth > Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March > of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that > would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. > I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. > Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that > looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone > can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big > gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a > birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the > other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a > picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd > > --__--__-- > > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:41:28 -0500 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > From: Edward L Frank > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. > http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.htm > > At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > > My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who > >served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his > >medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in > >April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth > >Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March > >of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that > >would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. > >I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. > >Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that > >looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone > >can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big > >gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a > >birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the > >other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a > >picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > --__--__-- > > Message: 19 > Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:50:50 -0500 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > From: Edward L Frank > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > At 04:41 AM 1/8/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. > >http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.html > >At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>Hi, > >> My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who > >>served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his > >>medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in > >>April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth > >>Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March > >>of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that > >>would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. > >>I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. > >>Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that > >>looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone > >>can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big > >>gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a > >>birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the > >>other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a > >>picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>303rd-Talk mailing list > >>303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > --__--__-- > > Message: 20 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:10:58 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ask and thou shalt receive....glad to oblige. Happy New Year.....Cheers, Bob > Hand > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 9 14:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:24:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Spider: I was not even a gleam in my father's eye when you guys were flying combat, and I am very curious if you flew first in bombers, then transitioned into fighters. If this is the case, Spider, could you please tell me/us about your experiences in transitioning into fighters? I know after a tour, pilots were given the opportunity to fly fighters. What was the Air Corp rational for allowing this, how long did it take to transition, were you assigned to the 8th or 9th AF, were you limited to bomber escort duty, and were you ex-bomber boys confined to one or more fighter groups? Did you transition during WWII in the ETO or PTO, or was it later in Korea? Little has been written on this subject that I have found. If you know of any good books you could recomend, I'd sincerely appreciate knowing about them. I know one man from Peoria, Illinois, named Tom Liston - former owner of the Bergners Department Store Chain, that flew both fighters (P-51s)and bombers, but he would rarely open up to me and tell me about his service when I was asking 20 years ago. You would be doing all of us a favor by documenting this piece of 8th AF history. Not looking for a long reply, just some of your thoughts. Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Eighth Air Force Historical Society 2514 W, Woodland St. Joseph, Missouri 64506 Toll Free: 800.748.7856 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com 8th AFHS Life Member #26361 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 9 21:24:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:24:51 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: References: Message-ID: <000801c07a82$9b75ce20$3af833cf@richards> Kevin: You may read Spiders Story at This Web sitewww.ivic.net~spider/ Spiders Story is under Maps and Pictures. This is the web site for the Hemet Model Masters where I fly Radio Controlled Models and write the newsletter for the club which has 170 members here in Hemet Ca. Enjoy The story and if you have more questions I will try and answer them . Happy New Year Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:24 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: > Hi Spider: I was not even a gleam in my father's eye when you guys were > flying combat, and I am very curious if you flew first in bombers, then > transitioned into fighters. If this is the case, Spider, could you please > tell me/us about your experiences in transitioning into fighters? I know > after a tour, pilots were given the opportunity to fly fighters. What was > the Air Corp rational for allowing this, how long did it take to transition, > were you assigned to the 8th or 9th AF, were you limited to bomber escort > duty, and were you ex-bomber boys confined to one or more fighter groups? > Did you transition during WWII in the ETO or PTO, or was it later in Korea? > > Little has been written on this subject that I have found. If you know of > any good books you could recomend, I'd sincerely appreciate knowing about > them. I know one man from Peoria, Illinois, named Tom Liston - former owner > of the Bergners Department Store Chain, that flew both fighters (P-51s)and > bombers, but he would rarely open up to me and tell me about his service > when I was asking 20 years ago. You would be doing all of us a favor by > documenting this piece of 8th AF history. Not looking for a long reply, > just some of your thoughts. > > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > 2514 W, Woodland > St. Joseph, Missouri 64506 > Toll Free: 800.748.7856 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > 8th AFHS Life Member #26361 > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 10 03:06:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (francisco quinones) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:06:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Francisco Quinones Message-ID: <20010110030634.11474.qmail@web3303.mail.yahoo.com> For many years I have been interested in the air war over Europe.When I was living in Las vegas around 1977-78 the 385B.G. had a reunion which our club of modellers were invited,we build models for every table plus got the chance to sit and talk to those brave men, that got me more interested but had my family to push ahead and my work took most of my time. I though when I retired this will keep me very busy,but in 1989 had a stroke that send me into very early retirement but doing what I always wanted research the air war over Europe.I have no plans of writing a book just love to share informatio. Francisco E. Quinones __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 10 03:20:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:20:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Francisco Quinones References: <20010110030634.11474.qmail@web3303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c07ab4$3ce02b80$908af4cc@e0y0k4> Welcome to the 303rd talk group, Francisco. I think I have seen your last name somewhere along the line. Was any of your family in the war? Gordy Alton ----- Original Message ----- From: "francisco quinones" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Francisco Quinones > For many years I have been interested in the air > war over Europe.When I was living in Las vegas around > 1977-78 the 385B.G. had a reunion which our club of > modellers were invited,we build models for every table > plus got the chance to sit and talk to those brave > men, > that got me more interested but had my family to push > ahead and my work took most of my time. > I though when I retired this will keep me very > busy,but in 1989 had a stroke that send me into very > early retirement but doing what I always wanted > research the air war over Europe.I have no plans of > writing a book just love to share informatio. > Francisco E. Quinones > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 10 08:18:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:18:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets References: Message-ID: <004101c07add$f2646240$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Very true war is war and if, you stand in harms way there's likely a price to pay. But, I was reminded of the event that took place during the Battle of Britain. When by mistake a German bomber dropped its' load on London. Hitler himself gave the direct order that there would be no terror bombing. Britain's response to this was a night raid over Berlin. Soon the retaliations escalated. I think that any directive given out by general staff to discourage unloading bombs anywhere on the country side was to avoid this type of reprisal escalation. I hope eventually we will learn our lesson. I know that keeping a memory alive about those who lived and died through it helps. Matt Petersen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets > Hate to mention this, but war after all is war, and our bombs were dropped to > inflict the most damage possible, regardless of people on ground. Hence the > dropping of a mixture of instantaneous explosives, delayed action bombs, > delayed incendiaries and frags. In no way did the flak batteries below seek > to knock out the bombardier on each aircraft... that's for sure. One of the > many propaganda films shown to us during our stay had to do with seeking > nonmilitary objects in ground-strafing, and showed tracers from an attacking > Mustang following a figure pushing a baby carriage up a street. The audio > advised that such actions were intolerable and that the pilot in this case > was now doing time in Leavenworth. But....and this is a qualified but....how > do we know that this figure wasn't an SS officer in drag running a pram full > of ammo. The Feb.3/45 raid to Berlin supposedly killed 25,000 refugees, > which was a turning point in the war. I'm sure that civilians outnumbered > the military in that regrettable, hideous bodycount. War is hell, but I > wonder if we will ever learn our lesson. Bob Hand, Fink's Crew Bombardier, > 303/360, 35m. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 02:13:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:13:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108043841.00a99100@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <007401c07b74$1ab3fd00$648af4cc@e0y0k4> Wanda, Can you write me off list, and give me any and all information you might have? This is something I have had some experience with, and I would be more than happy to help you in your search. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward L Frank" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton > Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. > http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.htm > > At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > > My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who > >served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his > >medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in > >April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth > >Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March > >of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that > >would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. > >I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. > >Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that > >looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone > >can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big > >gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a > >birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the > >other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a > >picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 03:16:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:16:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT References: <20010107.161934.-449659.2.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <00f101c07b7c$e6e36fc0$648af4cc@e0y0k4> I was told that the Germans knew of the Norden bombsight before the war. It is my belief that all the hoopla, ie. armed guards walking the bombsight back and forth between the equipment shack and the plane, blacked out parts of photos, etc., may have been for the purpose of morale and propaganda. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT > Maurice, > In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This > late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden > sight were well known by the enemy. > Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 04:02:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:02:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greenland Message-ID: <20010110.220221.-382463.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Does anyone remember the military names for the two bases in Greenland? We made an emergency landing there on the way over. As I recall it was something like "Blue west #1 and #2. I am sure the spelling is way off but it is the best I can do. HA HA Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 03:55:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:55:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <20010110.220221.-382463.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Gordy, You may be correct in stating that the Germans knew about the Norden Sight before the war. I really don't know. Their intelligence was good. I remember them naming the Bomb Groups/Squadrons on a given mission within 30 minutes of the bomb drop. I don't know how they did that but they did. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 04:28:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:28:22 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT References: <20010110.220221.-382463.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000301c07b87$53d5dd20$418af4cc@e0y0k4> The German Abwehr, run by Admiral Canaris, was very good. They had been in operation since long before the war started. When my Dad was shot down in Oct. of '43, he was interrogated near Frankfurt. The interrogator asked him how his mother, Florence, was doing, and didn't he prefer to be back in Red Deer, Alberta, with her? It took Dad's breath away. How they knew that within two days of his being shot down, he never found out. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT > Gordy, > You may be correct in stating that the Germans knew about the Norden > Sight before the war. I really don't know. Their intelligence was good. I > remember them naming the Bomb Groups/Squadrons on a given mission within > 30 minutes of the bomb drop. I don't know how they did that but they did. > Bill Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 14:19:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:19:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've also heard that Lord Haw Haw would broadcast the night before a mission and name the Groups participating the next day. Must have had a mole at HQ. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill L Runnels Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:16 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Gordy, You may be correct in stating that the Germans knew about the Norden Sight before the war. I really don't know. Their intelligence was good. I remember them naming the Bomb Groups/Squadrons on a given mission within 30 minutes of the bomb drop. I don't know how they did that but they did. Bill Runnels _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 14:30:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:30:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <15.e4fe393.278f1da1@aol.com> He also told us once the clock in the Molesworth officers club was 12 minutes slow. I got on my bicycle and rode over. It was. As for the Nordon Bomb sight. My opinion. The Germans could have built an equal one with no problem. Being coupled to the C-1 Auto Pilot is what made it so accurate. When you used it with the PDI (Pilot Direction Indicator) it was just a Bomb sight. I wonder if the B25s and B26s used it? If I ever knew I've forgotten. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 14:50:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:50:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <74.6c42495.278f2229@aol.com> I recall hearing a transmission from Lord Hawhaw (or whoever) calling a crewmember in flight by name and telling him he forgot the cord to his heated flying suit. If that had been me, I'd have ______my______. Is that intelligence or clarivoyant guesswork? Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 19:15:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:15:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <20010111.131601.-370639.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, The C-1 Auto Pilot certainly added to the accuracy of the sight. It was much better than using the PDI in that response to corrections by the Bombardier were much faster. Other factors that enhanced the accuracy were the calculations by the Bombardier, The Pilots ability to maintain air speed and altitude and the cloud coverage. If the cloud coverage was more that 50% it was harder to locate the target and you had much less time to focus the sight etc. Here is a little trivia on the Norden Bombsight, It had 2000 parts, cost $10,000 in 1940 dollars and 50,000 of these complex instruments were produced. It certainly was one of the top secrets of World War II . Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 19:51:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:51:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <20010111.135136.-264443.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, Regarding use of the Norden on B-25 and B-26 Aircraft, when we graduated from Advanced Bombardier School some were assigned to both aircraft so I assume they did use the Norden. The Norden is the only sight that we trained on. Bill. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 20:52:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:52:01 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] LORD HAW HAW Message-ID: <001201c07c10$5dcfe300$60bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07BDE.0E08FC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With a set of plans from communication next door to the A/C Supply and a = "liberated" set of head phones I made a crystal radio set. [Lay the head = phones on the table and 2-3 people could hear it.] One night Lord Haw = Haw told the people of Liecester [SP???] that their town clock was five = minutes off. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07BDE.0E08FC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With a set of plans from communication = next door to=20 the A/C Supply and a "liberated" set of head phones I made a crystal = radio set.=20 [Lay the head phones on the table and 2-3 people could hear it.] One = night Lord=20 Haw Haw told the people of Liecester [SP???] that their town clock was = five=20 minutes off.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07BDE.0E08FC80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 11 22:21:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:21:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: References: Message-ID: <002001c07c1c$e0bd3a40$23f833cf@richards> Hi Kevin: Wondered if you got my last message. Did you look at the web page .If you saw Spiders story and you still have questions I would be glad to answer them. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:24 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: > Hi Spider: I was not even a gleam in my father's eye when you guys were > flying combat, and I am very curious if you flew first in bombers, then > transitioned into fighters. If this is the case, Spider, could you please > tell me/us about your experiences in transitioning into fighters? I know > after a tour, pilots were given the opportunity to fly fighters. What was > the Air Corp rational for allowing this, how long did it take to transition, > were you assigned to the 8th or 9th AF, were you limited to bomber escort > duty, and were you ex-bomber boys confined to one or more fighter groups? > Did you transition during WWII in the ETO or PTO, or was it later in Korea? > > Little has been written on this subject that I have found. If you know of > any good books you could recomend, I'd sincerely appreciate knowing about > them. I know one man from Peoria, Illinois, named Tom Liston - former owner > of the Bergners Department Store Chain, that flew both fighters (P-51s)and > bombers, but he would rarely open up to me and tell me about his service > when I was asking 20 years ago. You would be doing all of us a favor by > documenting this piece of 8th AF history. Not looking for a long reply, > just some of your thoughts. > > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > 2514 W, Woodland > St. Joseph, Missouri 64506 > Toll Free: 800.748.7856 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > 8th AFHS Life Member #26361 > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 00:38:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:38:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <94.ea22eae.278fabf2@aol.com> --part1_94.ea22eae.278fabf2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: I have a question about the January 11, 1944, mission. After the recall was the City of Oschersleben the only target bombed, or did some of the planes continue to the other targets (Halberatadt, Brunswick). Thanks a lot. Bill from Brooklyn --part1_94.ea22eae.278fabf2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
    I have a question about the January 11, 1944, mission. After the recall
was the City of Oschersleben the only target bombed, or did some of the
planes continue
to the other targets (Halberatadt, Brunswick).  Thanks a lot.
                                                                         
Bill from Brooklyn


  --part1_94.ea22eae.278fabf2_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 06:23:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:23:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Spider Smith: Message-ID: Spider Smith - I also would like to learn more of your combat experiences but was unable to access the website. Will you repeat the URL please? ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 06:30:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:30:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden Message-ID: <009d01c07c61$1f629440$2f09f4cc@e0y0k4> I talked to a friend of mine tonight, and he is pretty sure he saw a program on History Channel, that stated the Germans had stolen the Norden bombsight, or plans of it, and used the same technology to bomb London in 1940. I'll let you know what I find out, unless someone else has History Channel tapes they'd like to take a quick look at. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 14:22:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:22:07 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Gordy: Just a word of caution, don't believe everything you hear on the History Channel. What really fries my hide is when you contact them and set the record straight, they do nothing about it. During the Blitz, the Germans were using radio beams similar to Gee for night bombings. Two station separated by miles would broadcast a unidirectional radio beams and the bombers would have a receiver that would pick up these beams. When the beams crossed, it was bombs away. Can anyone shed any more light onto Gee. I've heard the terms "cat" and "mouse" used with Gee. Are these terms making reference to the broadcast stations and receivers? Was Gee really effective? And did they use relay aircraft to pick up the signals and relay the beams onto the bombers? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 12:51 AM To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk List Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden I talked to a friend of mine tonight, and he is pretty sure he saw a program on History Channel, that stated the Germans had stolen the Norden bombsight, or plans of it, and used the same technology to bomb London in 1940. I'll let you know what I find out, unless someone else has History Channel tapes they'd like to take a quick look at. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 14:24:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:24:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Submarines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know this is a forum for the 303rd and matters related to aerial combat in the ETO. But have any of you been watching the History Channels programs on submaring warefae in the Pacific this week? Can't believe I'm seeing interviews with men from the Tang, Growler, and the Wahoo!! Facinating stuff for a guy like me who wasn't there! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 15:43:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:43:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden References: Message-ID: <002301c07cae$59e35bc0$848af4cc@e0y0k4> I know what you mean about the History Channel, Kevin. Remember the discussion we had a while back on the program about the Ball Turret Gunner program? I know you wrote them about the inaccuracies then, and got limited results. Those programs are only as good as the people who write them, and they are as prone to mistakes as the rest of us. Trouble is, people watch that stuff and take it for gospel. I know a couple people involved with Gee, and they have sent me a lot of info over the last few months. It was very accurate in certain situations, but was only as good as the person using it. When PFF crews that had been properly trained were using it, it was bang on the money, especially on targets just over the Channel, where the crossing beams from the broadcast stations were used very accurately. Gee was used by the PFF crews that led the bombing on D-Day, and most of the targets were bombed through 10/10 overcast. They were bang on the money, and the few missed targets that day were because of bad intelligence. I'll try to find out what the terms cat and mouse mean. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 6:22 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Norden > Hey Gordy: Just a word of caution, don't believe everything you hear on the > History Channel. What really fries my hide is when you contact them and set > the record straight, they do nothing about it. During the Blitz, the > Germans were using radio beams similar to Gee for night bombings. Two > station separated by miles would broadcast a unidirectional radio beams and > the bombers would have a receiver that would pick up these beams. When the > beams crossed, it was bombs away. > > Can anyone shed any more light onto Gee. I've heard the terms "cat" and > "mouse" used with Gee. Are these terms making reference to the broadcast > stations and receivers? Was Gee really effective? And did they use relay > aircraft to pick up the signals and relay the beams onto the bombers? > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 12:51 AM > To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk List > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden > > > I talked to a friend of mine tonight, and he is pretty sure he saw a program > on History Channel, that stated the Germans had stolen the Norden bombsight, > or plans of it, and used the same technology to bomb London in 1940. > I'll let you know what I find out, unless someone else has History Channel > tapes they'd like to take a quick look at. > Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 18:32:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:32:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Match box. Message-ID: <3A5F076B.14943.9E192@localhost> Just came back from Wall Mart, where we bought a couple boxes of Diamond kitchen matches. The boxes have a nice color photo of the Collins foundation reproduction of B-17, "Nine-O-Nine" in flight. It is some sort of collectables series of match boxes, which feature military aircraft. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 19:14:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:14:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A5F112F.19274.3008E7@localhost> > Hey Gordy: Just a word of caution, don't believe everything you hear on the > History Channel. What really fries my hide is when you contact them and set > the record straight, they do nothing about it. I agree that you can't beleive everything you see on the History Channel, but it is no different than books. Relative to them doing something about it, I would think that that would depend upon whether it was something they produced or whether the program was a documentary produced by others, as much of their content is. > During the Blitz, the > Germans were using radio beams similar to Gee for night bombings. Two > station separated by miles would broadcast a unidirectional radio beams and > the bombers would have a receiver that would pick up these beams. When the > beams crossed, it was bombs away. > > Can anyone shed any more light onto Gee. There is a nice web page from the 381stBGA, that deals with GEE and PFF topics. It is at: http://www.381st.org/stories_howland-pathfinders.html { Part 1 } and http://www.381st.org/stories_howland-mickey.html { Part 2 } > Was Gee really effective? I've heard that it could be quite accurate if the stations weren't too far away, and were in the right directions. I think it was basically the precursor to modern day Loran , which can be as accurate as GPS, depending on where the stations are located. > And did they use relay > aircraft to pick up the signals and relay the beams onto the bombers? I think that would have defeated the purpose, ie they needed signals from known locations rather than moving locations. I hope some of the navigators on the list will comment on this topic, as I too have been interested in the use of the GEE box and PFF on bomb runs. The web pages I referenced above suggest that the GEE stations had to be relatively near by, however I know that it was used deep into Germany late in the war. I've been curious whether this was because new beacon stations were put on the air after the ground forces advanced. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 19:07:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:07:54 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Match box. Message-ID: The most comprehensive source of info on the B-17 that I've found....models,types, huge pull-out magnificent drawings, specs, etc., etc., is in the book "The Great Book of World War II Airplanes" with incredible illustrations by Rikyu Watanabe. The book has 24 of these incredible pull-outs, suitable for framing. It's a heavy volume, probably 10 lbs., with 516 illustrations and articles by Ethell (God rest!) Freeman, Grinnell, Anderton. If you can lay your hands on this brute, it's worth the money. All manner of aircraft are represented, from the B-17 to the P-38, FW-190, Hellcat, Corsair, you name it. Worth the price...publ. by Bonanza Books, dist. by Crown Pub. Printed in Japan, my edition 1984. Cheers, Bob Hand 303/360 Fink's Crew, 35m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 19:51:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:51:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Gordy: Interesting. There is a guy here in St. Joseph, Ken Lux, who was stationed at Alconbury and installed the very first H2S set on a DeHavilland Mosquito. He passed along several books and technical manuals from the period and all were downright facinating. It never occured to me to ask Ken about Gee, something I will do this weekend. Frankly, I didn't know the Pathfinders were the only one to use Gee. Ken gave me a pic of a radar unit mounted on a B-24 at Alconbury, and there it is a long aerial mounted perpendiculary to the fusalage just behind and underneath the bombardiers position. He called it a "leaky wave radar antenea" and it was a 3 cm band radar, something unheard of even in 1945. I've got a great pic, but can't post it on the loop. If anyone wants a pic of this, send me your e-mail. Has anyone ever heard of a "Leaky wave radar set?" Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:58 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Norden I know what you mean about the History Channel, Kevin. Remember the discussion we had a while back on the program about the Ball Turret Gunner program? I know you wrote them about the inaccuracies then, and got limited results. Those programs are only as good as the people who write them, and they are as prone to mistakes as the rest of us. Trouble is, people watch that stuff and take it for gospel. I know a couple people involved with Gee, and they have sent me a lot of info over the last few months. It was very accurate in certain situations, but was only as good as the person using it. When PFF crews that had been properly trained were using it, it was bang on the money, especially on targets just over the Channel, where the crossing beams from the broadcast stations were used very accurately. Gee was used by the PFF crews that led the bombing on D-Day, and most of the targets were bombed through 10/10 overcast. They were bang on the money, and the few missed targets that day were because of bad intelligence. I'll try to find out what the terms cat and mouse mean. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 6:22 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Norden > Hey Gordy: Just a word of caution, don't believe everything you hear on the > History Channel. What really fries my hide is when you contact them and set > the record straight, they do nothing about it. During the Blitz, the > Germans were using radio beams similar to Gee for night bombings. Two > station separated by miles would broadcast a unidirectional radio beams and > the bombers would have a receiver that would pick up these beams. When the > beams crossed, it was bombs away. > > Can anyone shed any more light onto Gee. I've heard the terms "cat" and > "mouse" used with Gee. Are these terms making reference to the broadcast > stations and receivers? Was Gee really effective? And did they use relay > aircraft to pick up the signals and relay the beams onto the bombers? > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 12:51 AM > To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk List > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden > > > I talked to a friend of mine tonight, and he is pretty sure he saw a program > on History Channel, that stated the Germans had stolen the Norden bombsight, > or plans of it, and used the same technology to bomb London in 1940. > I'll let you know what I find out, unless someone else has History Channel > tapes they'd like to take a quick look at. > Gordy. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 19:53:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:53:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Match box. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill: I'm off to the store. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 12:46 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com; Heavy Bombers Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Match box. Just came back from Wall Mart, where we bought a couple boxes of Diamond kitchen matches. The boxes have a nice color photo of the Collins foundation reproduction of B-17, "Nine-O-Nine" in flight. It is some sort of collectables series of match boxes, which feature military aircraft. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 20:17:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:17:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A while back when we were talking about the CD Round Sounds, a CD with nothing but sounds of BIG radial engines, I said I had another CD that was similar that I purchased in Europe. At that time, I could not find this other CD - I had loaned it to my sister. Bob Hand I think wanted to get this. The name is Aero Sounds, The Oficial Edition, and I purchased it in Holland for about $10. Here's a list of the sound tracks: 1. P-51 Mustang, B-25, P-38 in flight (Awesome!) 2. Bristol F2B Fighter 3. Sopwith Camel (start up, taxi and fly by) 4. Bomb Run (LGV followed by Sopwith.) 5. Vickers FB27 Vimy 6. Hawker Hind 7. Messerschmidt Bf 109G (The inertial starter and start up are just magnificent! I heard the Daimler engine in the 109 was the very first fuel injected engine ever built. This track is worth the cost of the entire CD.) 8. B-17 engine start, then five B-17s taxi! (Nothing Better!) 9. B-17 Fly-by (Brings a tear to your eye!) 10. Hawker Hurricane and Spits Start and Taxi (Those Rolls Royce Merlins and Packard-built Griffons are simply magnificent.) 11. Spits Fly-by (Wow!) 12. Spitfire (Two Spits take off, followed by three more, then a fly by) 13. Curtiss P-40 (Allison engine start) 14. Warbird Formation (Too many planes to mentions. Just magnificent!) 14. Dewoitine 15. Mig 15 16. Hawker Hunter II 17. Avro Vulcan B-2 18. Panavia Tornado IDS 19. Sukhoi SU-27 Flanker 20. Tackitcal Attack 22. Mass Helicopter Approach 23. Helicopters taking off Contact: Aero World Publications P.O. Box 75483 1070 AL Amsterdam, Holland Fax: 011.(0)31.20.647.4739 (From US, do not dial the (0) I think the serial number of this CD is: 970121, at least that number appears on the back cover in the lower left hand corner and on one of the edges. I tried to order this CD from a local bookstore for a X-mas present for my sister and they could not find it or order it. I also purchased the CD Round Sounds I, and the above CD is far superior - more fly bys and takeoffs, and less time listening to a plane taxi, etc. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 20:41:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:41:46 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden Message-ID: <6c.6cae674.2790c60a@UNKNOWN> Certainly I'm no expert on the GEE Box but I'll make a few comments on what I think I know about it. When we first got to England before we went to the 303rd the pilots and Navigator went to a school very near London for about two weeks to study the GEE Box. It was on an airport but I don't remember the name of it anymore. The V-1's flew over us regularly. What we learned there was a life saver to us a few times. You were very right when you said it was extremely accurate. What I think I learned. The GEE box system consisted of 3 radio stations, A master station and 2 slave stations. They did not tell you the direction from the station like a radio compass, But they told you the distance from the station, on a scope, by measuring the TIME it took the signal to get from the station to your aircraft. From one station then you could be anywhere on the circumference of a circle a specific distance from the station. When you got the exact distanse from the 2nd slave station you had two circles that crossed in 2 seperate places but the 2 crosses were maybe 100 miles more or less apart depending on how far you were away from the stations so it was no problem to know which cross was your location. The master station broadcast a signal. the 2 slave stations picked up the signal and rebroadcast it to your aircraft. By measuring the different times it took the signal to get from the master station to the 2 slave stations (A known distance) and compare it to the time it took that signal to get to your scope gave you the exact (with in just a very few feet) distance you were from the stations. The stations were apparently very easy to move as they could keep them close to the front lines after D-day so we could use them to bomb in the fog. They seemed to be as accurate as a visual bomb run. It was a two man job to use them. You could shoot a fix and tell where you were or you could set the coordinents in your scope and home to it. I have used it to land at Molesworth in fog so thick then when you got on the ground you could open the window and stick your head out and could not see the ground with a flashlight. You could tell if you were lined up in the center or left or right of the runway center with it. The Germans could jam it if we got very far behind their lines with it. After you were on the ground you could not use it to taxi. We had no glide slope. You had to use your altimeter for altitude. The last 20 feet were quite nerve racking but we were expendable if you remember. The big amber antiaircraft lights shining up the final helped if you could see two of them at once. Now you know very thing I know and every thing you know so you are smarter than I am so don't ask me any questions about this. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 20:50:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:50:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #125 - 10 msgs Message-ID: <17.102c1aa5.2790c819@UNKNOWN> --part1_17.102c1aa5.2790c819_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message 7 Norden Bomb Sight & the Germans In late 1942 the Germans started talking bomber crews headed for UK and diverting them to their fields on the Brest Peninsular. Hence they got any number of the Norden Bomb Sights sometimes complete with tech manuals and balistic tables for our various bombs so they certainly did not have to steal it. We used to wonder why all the fuss with the siight security : background checks for the Bombardiers, carrying side arms when we lugged the sights.: you name it. In early 1943 I was a bombardier in the 427th Squadron and flew with Capt Billy Southworth as a lead crew when it was our squadron's turn to lead. Later at Aberdeen Proving Ground we dropped bombs for ballistic tables. As I recall, we thought Germans had the sight but chose not to use it. We also had the Sperry Bomb Sight but don't now a thing about it. --part1_17.102c1aa5.2790c819_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message 7 Norden Bomb Sight & the Germans

      In late 1942 the Germans started talking bomber crews headed for UK
and diverting  them to their fields on the Brest Peninsular.

      Hence they got any number of the Norden Bomb Sights sometimes complete
with tech manuals and balistic tables for our various bombs so they certainly
did
not have to steal it.

      We used to wonder why all the fuss with the  siight security :  
background checks for the Bombardiers, carrying side arms when we lugged the
sights.: you name it.

      In early 1943 I was a bombardier in the 427th Squadron and flew with
Capt Billy
Southworth as a lead crew when it was our squadron's turn to lead.

      Later at Aberdeen Proving Ground we dropped bombs for ballistic
tables.  As
I recall, we thought Germans had the sight but chose not to use it.

      We also had the Sperry Bomb Sight but don't now a thing about it. --part1_17.102c1aa5.2790c819_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 20:59:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:59:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] strange AOL problem Message-ID: <3A5F0DB8.11364.A6D912@localhost> For some reason (that has to be a problem at America Online) post from all of you who are on AOL are showing up as a pairlist.net email address. I assume AOL will fix this soon, but in the meantime, if you want to reply directly to someone who's email address shows as @pairlist.net - change it to @aol.com Hmmm.... never seen that one before. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 21:16:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:16:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] PDI and Autopilot Message-ID: <90.ec2972b.2790ce31@aol.com> --part1_90.ec2972b.2790ce31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Early in 1943 when our crew was going to lead a mission we would take the the manufacture's technicians and make a flight to be sure the auto pilot was working properly. On the mission The pilot would turn the autopilot over to the bomb sight . As lead bombardier I would star homing in on the target, and the bomb sight would make the course corrections during the run to the release point. . Abbott Smith 427th Squadron --part1_90.ec2972b.2790ce31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Early in 1943 when our crew was going to lead a mission we would take the the
manufacture's technicians and make a flight to be  sure the auto pilot was
working properly.

On the mission
The pilot would turn the autopilot over to the bomb sight . As lead  
bombardier
I would star homing in on the target, and the bomb sight would make the
course corrections during the run to the release point. .

Abbott Smith 427th Squadron

--part1_90.ec2972b.2790ce31_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 12 21:44:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:44:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack: Thanks for your great reply on Gee. I called my friend Ken Lux and he had also worked on Gee sets. He's bringing up some manuals nect week. Not sure if they will be technical, but if I learn anything more, I will post. Thanks again for your reply! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@pairlist.net Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 3:04 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Norden Certainly I'm no expert on the GEE Box but I'll make a few comments on what I think I know about it. When we first got to England before we went to the 303rd the pilots and Navigator went to a school very near London for about two weeks to study the GEE Box. It was on an airport but I don't remember the name of it anymore. The V-1's flew over us regularly. What we learned there was a life saver to us a few times. You were very right when you said it was extremely accurate. What I think I learned. The GEE box system consisted of 3 radio stations, A master station and 2 slave stations. They did not tell you the direction from the station like a radio compass, But they told you the distance from the station, on a scope, by measuring the TIME it took the signal to get from the station to your aircraft. From one station then you could be anywhere on the circumference of a circle a specific distance from the station. When you got the exact distanse from the 2nd slave station you had two circles that crossed in 2 seperate places but the 2 crosses were maybe 100 miles more or less apart depending on how far you were away from the stations so it was no problem to know which cross was your location. The master station broadcast a signal. the 2 slave stations picked up the signal and rebroadcast it to your aircraft. By measuring the different times it took the signal to get from the master station to the 2 slave stations (A known distance) and compare it to the time it took that signal to get to your scope gave you the exact (with in just a very few feet) distance you were from the stations. The stations were apparently very easy to move as they could keep them close to the front lines after D-day so we could use them to bomb in the fog. They seemed to be as accurate as a visual bomb run. It was a two man job to use them. You could shoot a fix and tell where you were or you could set the coordinents in your scope and home to it. I have used it to land at Molesworth in fog so thick then when you got on the ground you could open the window and stick your head out and could not see the ground with a flashlight. You could tell if you were lined up in the center or left or right of the runway center with it. The Germans could jam it if we got very far behind their lines with it. After you were on the ground you could not use it to taxi. We had no glide slope. You had to use your altimeter for altitude. The last 20 feet were quite nerve racking but we were expendable if you remember. The big amber antiaircraft lights shining up the final helped if you could see two of them at once. Now you know very thing I know and every thing you know so you are smarter than I am so don't ask me any questions about this. Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 01:13:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:13:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] PDI and Autopilot Message-ID: <34.f6e886b.279105c3@aol.com> true From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 01:31:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:31:23 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Match box. Message-ID: <9a.ea65938.279109eb@aol.com> walmart??? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 13:43:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:43:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cecil Millers Crew members Message-ID: <000701c07d66$d3e7e4a0$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Can someone help me out. I've been trying to find to James M. Pierce. He submitted a photo of Cecil Millers Crew ( Paper Dollie ) of which my father belonged to. He seems not to be listed within the website as a member. Thanks, Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 15:31:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (francisco quinones) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 07:31:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Feb.24, 1944 Message-ID: <20010113153118.28226.qmail@web3303.mail.yahoo.com> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 15:46:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (francisco quinones) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 07:46:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Feb.24, 1944 Message-ID: <20010113154642.3337.qmail@web3304.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, On Feb.24,1944 the 303B.G. "Big Week" lost (2) #42-31562 name? Sqn.? rank? John E.Henderson P. #42-31239 name? Sqn.? rank? Marshall L.Smith P. will like to know the missing information and complete crew. On Feb.28,1944 also the loss of B-17F #42-5306 no name 359 Sqn.Q lost to A.A. Crashed Dieppe,France rank? Noel E.Shoup need his crew rank and fate. Francisco Quinones __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 13 19:42:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:42:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Feb.24, 1944 In-Reply-To: <20010113154642.3337.qmail@web3304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A604D19.27794.435A1E@localhost> > Hi, > On Feb.24,1944 the 303B.G. "Big Week" lost (2) > #42-31562 name? Sqn.? > rank? John E.Henderson P. #42-31562 358th BS (VK-A) had no name 1Lt John F. Henderson See this page: http://www.303rdbga.com/358henderson.html > #42-31239 name? Sqn.? > rank? Marshall L.Smith P. > will like to know the missing information and complete > crew. The Marshall L. Smith Crew is listed here: http://www.303rdbga.com/p-rost-st.html#S > On Feb.28,1944 also the loss of B-17F #42-5306 no name 359 Sqn.Q > lost to A.A. Crashed Dieppe,France rank? Noel E.Shoup need his crew > rank and fate. Francisco Quinones Info is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/359shoup.html We just heard from Shoup's niece Sandra Hammons. Her email address is: sh-services@sedona.net Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 14 16:20:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:20:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Message-ID: <56.5d84fd1.27932bc9@aol.com> Many many thanks for the lead address for Aero Sounds. I have a cousin in Amsterdam and if I'm not able to locate a source here, I'll try this guy. Looking forward to a great CD. I also have Sounds of the High Iron (Diesel and steam) and some WWI engine sounds, Sopwith, Liberty engine run-up, etc. These are LPs. The railroad one is fun...like running it up in your garage with the doors open late in the night. Thanks again and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 14 19:46:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:46:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bob: Glad to help! I, too, have several steam engine CDs and tapes. And I have a MASSIVE stereo hooked up to my VCR, DVD, and TV. In the summer, I'll put on the steam engines, and I do get some pretty funny looks from neighbors walking by. The first thirty minutes of Saving Private Ryan are pretty special when you can feel as well hear the sounds of battle as they must have sounded. I also have some sound effects albums made on a carrier. Listening to Air Boss during multiple air launch ops is pretty special too. But nothing beats the BIG BANDS on my stereo. Oh how I wish I could have heard Glenn Miller when he was alive. I live just a few miles from Clarinda, Iowa, the home of Miller, and every year they have a big festival in his honor. People come from all over the world. But, I wish I could see Miller in action. What a treat that would be for this 44 year old! There is a museum at Hendon England that carries Aero Sounds. It was 9.99 Pounds. Go into Yahoo and search for "Aero Sounds," (make sure to include the " marks) and you will find several places that carry it. I only opened the one at Hendon but there were several others, might be one in the US. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 10:34 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Many many thanks for the lead address for Aero Sounds. I have a cousin in Amsterdam and if I'm not able to locate a source here, I'll try this guy. Looking forward to a great CD. I also have Sounds of the High Iron (Diesel and steam) and some WWI engine sounds, Sopwith, Liberty engine run-up, etc. These are LPs. The railroad one is fun...like running it up in your garage with the doors open late in the night. Thanks again and Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 14 22:43:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:43:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT In-Reply-To: Bill L Runnels 's message of Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:15:58 -0600 Message-ID: <18225-3A622BAB-9986@storefull-245.iap.bryant.webtv.net> The sight had 2300 parts, close to 60,000 were built,average wartime cost was $7,560 and German agents in the U.S. knew about it in 1938. That's the current story as reported by "Flight Journal." Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 14 22:54:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:54:36 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Message-ID: <93.5855948.2793882c@aol.com> Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you out of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one who appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the Overture by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number might conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some nether dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and his music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again for the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 13:18:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:18:55 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Flight Message-ID: <001201c07ef5$b8269f00$720110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07EF5.B6723840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got a request from Steve Carter for copy of High Flight ("reached out my = hand, and touched the face of God," etc). Both he and I are embarassed = to say can not find it in our extensive collections of aviation books. = Know I had it but just moved and now can't find it. Can anyone help us? = Might want to forward it on to him (Steve@sclb17.freeserve.co.uk) and = info me. Thanks, mates! Brian McGuire ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07EF5.B6723840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Got a request from Steve Carter for copy of High = Flight=20 ("reached out my hand, and touched the face of God," etc). Both he and I = are=20 embarassed to say can not find it in our extensive collections of = aviation=20 books. Know I had it but just moved and now can't find it. Can anyone = help us?=20 Might want to forward it on to him (Steve@sclb17.freeserve.co.uk= ) and=20 info me.
 
Thanks, mates!
 
Brian McGuire
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07EF5.B6723840-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 13:31:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:31:05 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Book! Message-ID: <002301c07ef7$728ae120$720110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C07EF7.69787DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure how many of you know about the new book by a 303rd alum, Alvin = L. Morton. Just got my copy last week. Entitled "A Noble Spirit," it is = a fascinating read. Not structured like a novel or chronological = autobiography, it is a salute to the 303rd and meanders through many = subjects related to his service at Molesworth. Lots of vignettes, crew = photos with personnel identified, pages from his diary, poems, and LOTS = more. Excellent book that belongs on the book shelf of those with 303rd = and 8AF interests. Published by Dorrance Publishing. Brian McGuire ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C07EF7.69787DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure how many of you know about the new book = by a=20 303rd alum, Alvin L. Morton. Just got my copy last week. Entitled "A = Noble=20 Spirit," it is a fascinating read. Not structured like a novel or = chronological=20 autobiography, it is a salute to the 303rd and meanders through many = subjects=20 related to his service at Molesworth. Lots of vignettes, crew photos = with=20 personnel identified, pages from his diary, poems, and LOTS more. = Excellent book=20 that belongs on the book shelf of those with 303rd and 8AF interests. = Published=20 by Dorrance Publishing.
 
Brian McGuire
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C07EF7.69787DE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 14:13:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:13:35 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got Dorsey's "Opus No. 1" and you are correct, it is outstanding. Never heard of the Overture by Kabelevsky - I'll haveto check it out. For the rest of the 303rdBGA, what was was favorite song from the war years? I'm partial to "They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and "When the Lights Go On Again." Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 5:10 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you out of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one who appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the Overture by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number might conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some nether dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and his music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again for the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 15:59:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:59:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Flight Message-ID: Greetings, Brian.... H I G H F L I G H T John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-splie clouds -- and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of -- wheeled and soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there, I've chased the shouting wind along and flung My eager craft thkroughfootless halls of air. Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I've toped the windswept heights with easy grace Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod The high, untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand and touched the face of God. Wonderful words, indeed. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 17:01:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:01:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Message-ID: >From the cadet days at Carlsbad...tunes like "Johnny Got a Zero" and "Silver Wings in the Moonlight" (sentimental gal singing about sharing her guy with the sky). Guess my favorite was That Old Black Magic...but so many of them were great. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 18:07:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:07:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That old Black Magic. Bob, the guy who got me interested in the Eighth flew a B-17 that was named Black Magic, but they renamed the ship Lassie Come Home because they felt the name Black Magic could bring them bad luck! It is a great song! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 11:18 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD >From the cadet days at Carlsbad...tunes like "Johnny Got a Zero" and "Silver Wings in the Moonlight" (sentimental gal singing about sharing her guy with the sky). Guess my favorite was That Old Black Magic...but so many of them were great. Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 18:20:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:20:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jan. 11, 1944 Message-ID: <50.100e10bb.27949960@aol.com> --part1_50.100e10bb.27949960_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi To All: =A0=A0=A0=A0I have a few questions about the January 11, 1944, mission. My u= ncle was=20 with the 482BG, 812 BS (Mickey). I believe his assignment was to bomb=20 Halberstat. After the recall it seems that he continued to Oschersleben. =20 According to the book "Half a Wing, Three Engines and a Prayer" by Brian D.=20 O'Neil, on page 315, my uncle's plane 42-3486 joins the 303BG over England.=20= =20 He states that it crashed in the Zuider Zee on the way into the target. In=20 his foot note he states that this may be incorrect (it is incorrect). On=20 page 317 he has the plane being shot down, leaving the formation and=20 exploding (his footnote states that this may not be correct). The plane did= =20 try to make it back to England, and was attacked again over Holland. It=20 crashed in the Zuider Zee. Three crew members survived. The rest died in th= e=20 Sea. My questions are, were any of the other two targets bombed or was the target= =20 of Oschersleben the only target bombed, or did some of the planes continue t= o=20 the other targets (Halberstat, Brunswick). Also, was it normal for a "Mickey= "=20 aircraft to continue with a different group if the group he was with was recalled? =20 Was it normal to have two "Mickey's" on the same mission? Any information will be appreciated. Thanks a lot. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Bill=20 from Brooklyn =A0 --part1_50.100e10bb.27949960_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi To All:
=A0=A0=A0=A0I have a few questions about the January 11, 1944, mission.=20= My uncle was=20
with the 482BG, 812 BS (Mickey).  I believe his assignment was to b= omb=20
Halberstat. After the recall it seems that he continued to Oschersleben.=  
According to the book "Half a Wing, Three Engines and a Prayer" by Brian= D.=20
O'Neil, on page 315, my uncle's plane 42-3486 joins the 303BG over Engla= nd.  
He states that it crashed in the Zuider Zee on the way into the target.=20=  In=20
his foot note he states that this may be incorrect (it is incorrect). &n= bsp;On=20
page 317 he has the plane being shot down, leaving the formation and=20
exploding (his footnote states that this may not be correct).  The=20= plane did=20
try to make it back to England, and was attacked again over Holland. It=20
crashed in the Zuider Zee. Three crew members survived.  The rest d= ied in the=20
Sea.

My questions are, were any of the other two targets bombed or was the ta= rget=20
of Oschersleben the only target bombed, or did some of the planes contin= ue to=20
the other targets (Halberstat, Brunswick). Also, was it normal for a "Mi= ckey"=20
aircraft
to continue with a different group if the group he was with was recalled= ?  
Was it normal to have two "Mickey's" on the same mission?
Any information will be appreciated. Thanks a lot.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0B= ill=20
from Brooklyn


=A0 --part1_50.100e10bb.27949960_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 19:08:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:08:14 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD References: Message-ID: <3A634A9E.DE77FC4C@newsfactory.net> Kevin, just a short note from the "German side": My Dad, former Luftwaffe-soldier, loved to listen to "In the Mood" ( Glenn Miller), "The white cliffs of Dover", " On the sunny side of the street" and "Rum & Coca-Cola" ( Andrew Sisters), and , of course, "Lili Marleen". Uwe Kevin Pearson schrieb: > I've got Dorsey's "Opus No. 1" and you are correct, it is outstanding. > Never heard of the Overture by Kabelevsky - I'll haveto check it out. > > For the rest of the 303rdBGA, what was was favorite song from the war years? > I'm partial to "They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and > "When the Lights Go On Again." > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 5:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD > > Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you out > of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one who > appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the Overture > by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number might > conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some > nether > dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and his > music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again > for > the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 19:10:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:10:32 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD References: Message-ID: <3A634B28.82EE6532@newsfactory.net> forgot: ....although it was forbidden, of course. But as Signal Corps men they somehow arranged that quite often. Best regards, Uwe Kevin Pearson schrieb: > I've got Dorsey's "Opus No. 1" and you are correct, it is outstanding. > Never heard of the Overture by Kabelevsky - I'll haveto check it out. > > For the rest of the 303rdBGA, what was was favorite song from the war years? > I'm partial to "They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and > "When the Lights Go On Again." > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 5:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD > > Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you out > of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one who > appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the Overture > by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number might > conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some > nether > dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and his > music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again > for > the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 19:53:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:53:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Uwe: My grandfather was with the 3rd Engineers during the First World War. I can still remember him talking about singing Lil Marleen while in France, and whistling this tune when I was a child! What a great song. I have the song on CD, but have no idea what she is singing about since it is all in German, and like most arrogant Americans, never learneda second language. Can you tell me in a few sentences what she is singing about? Some of my other favorites: Pistol Packin Mama The Last Timne I Saw Paris Tangerine Shoo Shoo Baby You'll Never Know -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Uwe Wiedemann Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 1:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD Kevin, just a short note from the "German side": My Dad, former Luftwaffe-soldier, loved to listen to "In the Mood" ( Glenn Miller), "The white cliffs of Dover", " On the sunny side of the street" and "Rum & Coca-Cola" ( Andrew Sisters), and , of course, "Lili Marleen". Uwe Kevin Pearson schrieb: > I've got Dorsey's "Opus No. 1" and you are correct, it is outstanding. > Never heard of the Overture by Kabelevsky - I'll haveto check it out. > > For the rest of the 303rdBGA, what was was favorite song from the war years? > I'm partial to "They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and > "When the Lights Go On Again." > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 5:10 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD > > Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you out > of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one who > appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the Overture > by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number might > conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some > nether > dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and his > music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again > for > the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 22:03:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:03:47 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD References: Message-ID: <3A6373C3.F0BBBB28@newsfactory.net> Kevin: Nice to hear that you know of "Lili Marleen". I´ve got the song on a original schellack, but also got the English version of it on LP, which was sung by Marlene Dietrich, when she was already over there in the US. The song is about a soldier, who used to meet his girl Lili Marleen under the lantern in front of the barrack´s gate. And , as he has to go in the field, promises that they will meet again under that lantern in front of the gate. But , at the same time, he´s thinking about who will stand at the lantern with her , if he won´t come back.- My father told me, when he served in North Africa, that at 10 o´clock p.m. the British tipped on the morsekey saying "LM", for Radio Belgrad then was playing L.Marleen for the German troops. Now my Dad´s unit took the radio close to the wireless radio of their ground station and "threw" the song over to the British, so they could hear that, too. Maybe because they where stationed somewhere where they couldn´t receive it by themselves. Well, anyway,... Thanks for hints on that roaring a/c-engines -CD. Try to get this one somewhere here. Some of my favorites - for I´m a trombone player: all about Glenn Miller. Best so far...., Uwe Kevin Pearson schrieb: > Uwe: My grandfather was with the 3rd Engineers during the First World War. > I can still remember him talking about singing Lil Marleen while in France, > and whistling this tune when I was a child! What a great song. I have the > song on CD, but have no idea what she is singing about since it is all in > German, and like most arrogant Americans, never learneda second language. > Can you tell me in a few sentences what she is singing about? > > Some of my other favorites: > > Pistol Packin Mama > The Last Timne I Saw Paris > Tangerine > Shoo Shoo Baby > You'll Never Know > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Uwe Wiedemann > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 1:41 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD > > Kevin, > > just a short note from the "German side": My Dad, former Luftwaffe-soldier, > loved to listen to "In the Mood" ( Glenn Miller), "The white cliffs of > Dover", " > On the sunny side of the street" and "Rum & Coca-Cola" ( Andrew Sisters), > and , > of course, "Lili Marleen". > Uwe > > Kevin Pearson schrieb: > > > I've got Dorsey's "Opus No. 1" and you are correct, it is outstanding. > > Never heard of the Overture by Kabelevsky - I'll haveto check it out. > > > > For the rest of the 303rdBGA, what was was favorite song from the war > years? > > I'm partial to "They'll be Blue Skies (Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and > > "When the Lights Go On Again." > > Kevin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 5:10 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Aero Sounds CD > > > > Thanks, Kevin for the quick reply. Dorsey's 'Opus No.1" would shake you > out > > of your shoes with the opening chord! Glad to see I'm not the only one > who > > appreciates pure sound. For an unusual experience, I recommend the > Overture > > by Kabelevsky....gawd what a score! I wonder what images this number > might > > conjure up in your mind....the minute I heard it, I freaked into some > > nether > > dimension and the images were really wild. Miller was surely great and > his > > music will endure far beyond the range of the current stuff. Thanks again > > for > > the addresses. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 22:27:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:27:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] any way to tell if picture is from mission? Message-ID: <3A6332E4.25824.21FEF26@localhost> I have 2 pictures of PU-I , ie 43-38672 taken some time in 1945. The first is at Molesworth taxiing to the runway for takeoff, and the second is in the air. The first picture has a note written on the back indicating that it was showing the planes lined up waiting for takeoff before a mission. However, from the other pictures that were on the same roll of film, I really suspect that the pictures were taken after VE day, on that "Continental Express" flight where the ground personnel were taken for a tour of the bombed areas. Anyway, I was wondering whether there was anyway to tell whether this plane was really on a combat mission from the pictures. In particular, I noticed that the the ball turret gun was facing straight back, as was the top turret gun, even when the plane was in the air, and I am used to seeing those guns at random positions in pictures from actual missions. Also, I was wondering how many planes participated in the "Continental Express" trip, as there seem to be quite a few planes lined up for takeoff in the picture, and the picture in the air shows the planes relatively close together as in formation (ie not sure if they were flying formation on the Continental Express). It's probably not possible for me to tell whether it was combat or not, but I just thought there might be some way to tell. Also, I thought people might be interested in seeing the picture of the planes taxiing for takeoff. Pictures are at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/pui-taxi.html ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 22:54:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:54:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] any way to tell if picture is from mission? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just an idea, but on the pic on the ground, can you see the undercarriage? Does she seem loaded for combat, i.e. - big fuel load and bombed up? Sometimes the Forts looked a bit hunkered down from all that weight, and does the undercarriage appears to be a bit slightly more flaired out than normal? Anyone else ever notice this? Are there ammo boxes by any of the guns, especially if the waist is visable? Can you see any of the crew? Are any wearing flak vests - ok, guys, pretty unlikely, but a thought. And if you can see the props, do they appear to be cutting a wider swath through the air, or is it a narrow prop silouette? Wider swather, either at high altitude or perhaps carrying a heavier load. The position of the ball and top turret would be standard position at take off and landing. Can you see the ground below? Is it near or far - higher altitude might suggest bombing altitude and not a Continental Express run - most of those were low level so the ground personnel could see the damage inflicted. Just a couple of ideas, guys. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 4:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] any way to tell if picture is from mission? I have 2 pictures of PU-I , ie 43-38672 taken some time in 1945. The first is at Molesworth taxiing to the runway for takeoff, and the second is in the air. The first picture has a note written on the back indicating that it was showing the planes lined up waiting for takeoff before a mission. However, from the other pictures that were on the same roll of film, I really suspect that the pictures were taken after VE day, on that "Continental Express" flight where the ground personnel were taken for a tour of the bombed areas. Anyway, I was wondering whether there was anyway to tell whether this plane was really on a combat mission from the pictures. In particular, I noticed that the the ball turret gun was facing straight back, as was the top turret gun, even when the plane was in the air, and I am used to seeing those guns at random positions in pictures from actual missions. Also, I was wondering how many planes participated in the "Continental Express" trip, as there seem to be quite a few planes lined up for takeoff in the picture, and the picture in the air shows the planes relatively close together as in formation (ie not sure if they were flying formation on the Continental Express). It's probably not possible for me to tell whether it was combat or not, but I just thought there might be some way to tell. Also, I thought people might be interested in seeing the picture of the planes taxiing for takeoff. Pictures are at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/pui-taxi.html ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 15 23:09:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:09:41 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] High Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob - Thanks much. Happy New Year to Nyela and you. Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 4:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] High Flight Greetings, Brian.... H I G H F L I G H T John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-splie clouds -- and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of -- wheeled and soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there, I've chased the shouting wind along and flung My eager craft thkroughfootless halls of air. Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I've toped the windswept heights with easy grace Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod The high, untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand and touched the face of God. Wonderful words, indeed. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 07:07:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 02:07:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] wartime songs Message-ID: <8e.fd4d781.27954d45@aol.com> I'll be seeing you,I'll be home for Christmas,When the lights go on again all over the world,A nightingale sang in Berkly square,Don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me, Frenesi,Stardust,Begin the beguine by Artie Shaw. I'll never smile again and Song of India by Tommy Dorsey .And on and on Jack Amram From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 17:08:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:08:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jan. 11, 1944 In-Reply-To: WDK19@aol.com's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:20:16 EST Message-ID: <5318-3A647FFC-8886@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> The book by O'Neill was a story about Hullar's crew. Since they did not fly on the mission on January 11th O'Neill added it to the original story. I flew on the mission and our spot was tailend Charlie in the High Squadron of the lead group. I believe at that time the PFF aircrft were stationed at Alconbury. The lead aircraft flown by Col. Calhoun was not a PFF aircraft so I have no idea of what position the PFF aircraft flew in. The 303rd's target was always Oschersleben. I'm sure Harry Gobrecht can answer most of your questions since he has a copy of the formation we flew. I know it was a helluva cold day and chances of survival if you bailed out over water was slim. I rem ember I promised you a copy of my version of the mission. I found an extra copy and I will try to put one in the mail soon. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 17:56:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:56:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] wartime songs Message-ID: The wildest of them all was Stan Kenton's "Peanut Vendor"....if you could sit still for that one, you daid, man. Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 19:40:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:40:21 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] wartime songs Message-ID: <20010116.134021.-136633.0.billrunnels@juno.com> How about "mairzy-doats" ? Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 20:07:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:07:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SONGS & CONTINENTAL EXPRESS Message-ID: <001b01c07ff7$ec764f00$54bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C07FC5.A113FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MEMORIES -Chattanooga Choo Choo - Tex Beneke on the vocal -Itsy Bitsy = Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini- & I Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle = Jingle.=20 Broderick Crawford & Johnny Desmond on Armed Forces Network. Broderick = had an "advertisent" for 'Oh my Aching Back Ack Ack Flak Sack' & "La = Trine A" perfume. Got a little off color once in a while and the British = complained. I flew Continental Express - no formation that I can remember seeing - I = fact I don't remember seeing that many 17's in the air with us. We flew = at a minimum of 1000 ft . The latest information from stool #1 in latrine A [That one was supposed = to be authentic] was that a 17 & a 24 had met head on while one was going up the Rhine = River Gorge and the other goin down stream the day before I flew. I was = asleep when we flew up the Rhine River Gorge - My buddy was sicker than = the poreverbial dog and the 2nd lt. that ranked me out of kthe = kbombadir\ers seat didn't wake me while he took his pictures. One of my = frieds had a close call kthe day before. They were making a wake on the = surface of the river and pulled out just in time. [[[shortened "sign off" --saves space]]] Maurice J. Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C07FC5.A113FB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MEMORIES -Chattanooga Choo Choo - Tex = Beneke on the=20 vocal -Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny = Yellow Polka=20 Dot Bikini- & I Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle. =
 
Broderick  Crawford & Johnny = Desmond on=20 Armed Forces Network. Broderick had an "advertisent" for  'Oh my = Aching=20 Back Ack Ack Flak Sack'  & "La Trine A" perfume. Got a little = off color=20 once in a while and the British complained.
 
I flew Continental Express - no = formation that I=20 can remember seeing - I fact I don't remember seeing that many 17's in = the air=20 with us. We flew at a minimum of 1000 = ft=20 .
The latest information from stool #1 in = latrine A=20 [That one was supposed to be authentic]
was that a 17 & a 24 had met = head on while=20 one was going up the Rhine River Gorge and the other goin down stream = the day=20 before I flew.  I was asleep when we flew up the Rhine River Gorge = - My=20 buddy was sicker than the poreverbial dog and the 2nd lt. that ranked me = out of=20 kthe kbombadir\ers seat didn't wake me while he took his pictures. One = of my=20 frieds had a close call kthe day before. They were making a wake on the = surface=20 of the river and pulled out just in time.
 
[[[shortened "sign off" --saves = space]]]
Maurice=20 J. Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C07FC5.A113FB20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 19:55:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (George Spoerl) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Message-ID: <20010116195512.52536.qmail@web11503.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm a nephew of Robert C Peter, who was a waist gunner in the 360th. I really like your site, and have received lots of help so far tracking down info on his service. Thanks!! George Spoerl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 20:09:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:09:59 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Kein Betreff) Message-ID: <3A64AA96.7AE2069@newsfactory.net> To Hal Susskind: Hello Hal, did Uwe Benkel ever send a message? Had talked to a friend of him online, who said he will put forward my phone number to U. Benkel so that he can give me a call. He hasn´t done so yet. I put forward your e-mail address to his friend having in mind U. B. would rather to contact you directly than through me. Rex Reichert: Tracked down a few lines but ended nowhere. Unfortunately. He seems not to be living at his old address anymore. Lat chance seems to be now: I´m gonna contact Oberst a.D. Goebel of the "Jägerblatt". He will publish my question and hopefully someone out there will know somehting of Rex. Hope to come up with something. Best wishes, Uwe From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 16 23:04:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:04:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SONGS & CONTINENTAL EXPRESS In-Reply-To: <001b01c07ff7$ec764f00$54bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3A648D16.26156.23D76F7@localhost> > I flew Continental Express - no formation that I can remember seeing - I fact I don't remember seeing > that many 17's in the air with us. Thanks. Perhaps the caption on the picture was correct then. It also just occurred to me, that although my father flew all his missions with the 360th, he was transferred to the 359th near the end of April, and the plane in the picture was a 360th aircraft, so it must have been prior to the transfer. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 00:07:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:07:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission Photo's? Message-ID: <20010117000729.98214.qmail@web9301.mail.yahoo.com> Great photo's! Your right about the top, ball and chin turret, Looks like they are stowed and nobody touched them. It would make sense for the 8th to make the trip as a group, imagine all those bomb groups and A/C sightseeing all over Europe! A loose formation would explain that in air photo of PU-I too. That picture of all those 303rd B-17G's taxing at Molesworth really shows what a mission takeoff must have looked like in 1945, sad to think in six months they might end up stored wing tip to wing tip somewhere in the US. And I still can't get over how un-even the terrain Molesworth looks today compared to the W.W.II images. The Tech site near the hangers seems flat and untouched, Hey Brian, do us a favor and borrow a metal detector from NATO and let us know what you find around there, try not to hassle all the rabbit's that live there today :) Todd > Message: 7 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:27:00 -0500 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] any way to tell if picture is > from mission? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > I have 2 pictures of PU-I , ie 43-38672 taken some > time in 1945. The first is at > Molesworth taxiing to the runway for takeoff, and > the second is in the air. > The first picture has a note written on the back > indicating that it was showing the > planes lined up waiting for takeoff before a > mission. However, from the other pictures > that were on the same roll of film, I really suspect > that the pictures were taken after VE > day, on that "Continental Express" flight where the > ground personnel were taken for a > tour of the bombed areas. > Anyway, I was wondering whether there was anyway > to tell whether this plane was > really on a combat mission from the pictures. In > particular, I noticed that the the ball > turret gun was facing straight back, as was the top > turret gun, even when the plane > was in the air, and I am used to seeing those guns > at random positions in pictures > from actual missions. Also, I was wondering how > many planes participated in the > "Continental Express" trip, as there seem to be > quite a few planes lined up for takeoff > in the picture, and the picture in the air shows the > planes relatively close together as in > formation (ie not sure if they were flying formation > on the Continental Express). > It's probably not possible for me to tell > whether it was combat or not, but I just > thought there might be some way to tell. Also, I > thought people might be interested in > seeing the picture of the planes taxiing for > takeoff. Pictures are at: > > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/pui-taxi.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 00:26:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:26:13 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jan. 11, 1944 Message-ID: --part1_aa.fcc89d6.279640a5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: How's it going. Hope all is well. I asked the question because my uncle's target was Halberstat. In O'Neil book he has him going down over Oschersleben. If the other two divisions were recalled and only Oschersleben was bombed, it would confuse it up a bit. I believe my uncle's plane did drop their bombs on Halberstat from paperwork from the Government. I guess I will have to dig a little deeper. Thanks for all your help. Don't worry about the newsletter you wrote, I receive it today from the 303BG Association. Thanks again. Bill --part1_aa.fcc89d6.279640a5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal:
   How's it going.  Hope all is well.
I asked the question because my uncle's target
was Halberstat.  In O'Neil book he has him going down over Oschersleben.  If
the other two divisions were recalled and only Oschersleben was bombed, it
would confuse it up a bit.  I believe my uncle's plane did drop their bombs
on Halberstat from paperwork from the Government.  I guess I will have to dig
a little deeper.
Thanks for all your help.  Don't worry about the newsletter you wrote, I
receive it today from the 303BG Association.  Thanks again.
                                                                             
      Bill

--part1_aa.fcc89d6.279640a5_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 08:48:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:48:43 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe Message-ID: <000f01c08062$4c13f2e0$738af4cc@e0y0k4> Hello all. At the end of my notes is a letter written to me by a friend in England, by the name of Howard Dell, an English fellow who has studied the war, especially navigation methods. He was not in the war. He is a friend of John Howland, who was a PFF navigator detached from the 381stBG, to the 324th BS of the 91stBG, to lead the 91st as a PFF navigator, but sometimes led other groups as well. Three groups made up the 1st Bomb Division: the 388th, the 381st, and the 91st. One of John's most notable missions was to lead the bombing of the of Gold Beach targets on D-Day, as a PFF navigator with the 381st bomb group. 18 PFF groups took part in the day's 'maximum' effort, and led all of the bomb groups in the bombing of the invasion targets. The 381st managed to get two groups of 18 planes each up in the air. One of these groups, led by John's navigation, bombed targets in the Gold Beach area, near Bayeaux, and the other group, led by Carl Clark, hit an airport near St. Lo'. The 381st only accounted for 2.2% of the total force comprised of 36 groups that day. The total effective bomber force amounted to 1622 bombers. A total of 4,852 tons of bombs were dropped in support of the D-Day landings, a lot of it through 10/10 cloud cover. Because of the accurate use of Gee by the PFF navigators, much of the German command and control structure was shattered by the destruction of lines of communication, and great confusion was sewn among the German troops, as well as accompanying collateral damage. John and Howard have been kind enough over the last few months to send me a lot of material on bomber navigation. I have to admit, though, that I am in no way an expert. In fact, it will take a lot of studying just to get a rudimentary understanding of the methods involved in bomber navigation. John had 10 weeks of study in the 'States before he went overseas, and many weeks of training, by elite instructors while in the ETO. I am just a baby when it comes to this subject, so I put the question of 'cat and mouse' to both men, and Howard answered with the very informative letter below. I haven't heard back yet from John, so I assume he is away for a few days. If he has anything to add later, I will forward it to the 303rd talk ring when I get it. Here is Howard's answer to my query: Greetings, Gordy, As far as I'm aware, "cat & mouse" was never applied to GEE, but it was to "Oboe". As you know, GEE was a highly accurate general purpose electronic navigation system introduced to replace the slow and error prone traditional dead reckoning and celestial navigational methods. GEE was first used on 8 March 1942 for a raid over the Ruhr. Prior to the introduction of GEE, the RAF's bombing performance was so lamentable that aircrew losses were higher than the number of people killed on the ground. However, GEE still required a degree of skill to use, and it was realised that bombing accuracy could be further improved by an "idiot proof" method to guide to the target (a term hardly used at the time!). The Germans had recognised this much earlier, and already by mid-1940 had an adjustable "radio beam" to lead their bombers to targets in England ("Knickebein"). TRE, the British radar research station at Malvern which came up with so many radar developments in the early 1940s, produced a system called Oboe which was brought into use in December 1942. Like GEE, it utilised ground based transmitters, but it had a single purpose - to direct aircraft to one target. Imagine one transmitter sending out a signal which the aircraft detects as a long arc centred on the transmitter, and sweeping across enemy territory through the target. The aircraft flies around the arc then, in the target area, it crosses another beam sent from a second transmitter. Where the beams crossed was the bomb release point. The crossing point was calculated from England to be the true release point, thus relieving the aircrew of any responsibility of real navigation and permitting blind bombing. I vaguely recall that the bomb release was automatic, but I'm not sure on that point. Initially, for reasons I don't understand, Oboe could control only one bomber so the RAF's Mosquito aircraft worked as pathfinders, dropping flares on the target. Subsequently, Oboe was used by the whole bombing force. The transmitter that generated the arc was known as the "cat" and the secondary transmitter was the "mouse". The name Oboe was derived from the fact that the pilot navigated around the arc by listening to a tone which varied as the plane deviated left and right off centre. It apparently sounded a bit like an oboe in quality, hence the name stuck. Like GEE, the technology of the period limited its range and guided raids deep into Germany had to wait until the Allies could erect cat and mouse transmitters on the mainland of Europe. Transportable transmitting masts followed the advancing ground troops. As far as I am aware, only RAF Bomber Command used Oboe: I don't think it was fitted to US aircraft but I'll try and check that. Perhaps Jake knows. Interestingly, Oboe was used at the end of the war (in May 1945) for "friendly" bombing - it was used to direct food drops to starving Dutch civilians. Regards, Howard. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 08:58:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:58:25 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission Photo's? In-Reply-To: <20010117000729.98214.qmail@web9301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Todd - I'm afraid that's been done so many time over the years that nothing would be left. The ground has been turned over many time on most of the base. There have been many rumors about stuff (like crated engines!) being buried on the base after the war but in tracking all of them down they have been discounted. Some years back Dave Manning and I tried to get folks so send us some more pictures to display here, and we have a couple showing B-17s taxiing from the 360th area by the T-2 hangars. By the way, no NATO presence here (except for a few liaison types). Strictly a US base. Primary tenant is the Joint Analysis Center, with all four US Services participating (along with DOD civilians and bunches of us contractor types), and a small Air Force unit here (423 Air Base Squadron) with the mission to provide us support. The JAC celebrates its 10th anniversary this year (I have been here all but the first 10 months). Cheers, mate. Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Todd Hollritt Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:07 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mission Photo's? Great photo's! Your right about the top, ball and chin turret, Looks like they are stowed and nobody touched them. It would make sense for the 8th to make the trip as a group, imagine all those bomb groups and A/C sightseeing all over Europe! A loose formation would explain that in air photo of PU-I too. That picture of all those 303rd B-17G's taxing at Molesworth really shows what a mission takeoff must have looked like in 1945, sad to think in six months they might end up stored wing tip to wing tip somewhere in the US. And I still can't get over how un-even the terrain Molesworth looks today compared to the W.W.II images. The Tech site near the hangers seems flat and untouched, Hey Brian, do us a favor and borrow a metal detector from NATO and let us know what you find around there, try not to hassle all the rabbit's that live there today :) Todd > Message: 7 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:27:00 -0500 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] any way to tell if picture is > from mission? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > I have 2 pictures of PU-I , ie 43-38672 taken some > time in 1945. The first is at > Molesworth taxiing to the runway for takeoff, and > the second is in the air. > The first picture has a note written on the back > indicating that it was showing the > planes lined up waiting for takeoff before a > mission. However, from the other pictures > that were on the same roll of film, I really suspect > that the pictures were taken after VE > day, on that "Continental Express" flight where the > ground personnel were taken for a > tour of the bombed areas. > Anyway, I was wondering whether there was anyway > to tell whether this plane was > really on a combat mission from the pictures. In > particular, I noticed that the the ball > turret gun was facing straight back, as was the top > turret gun, even when the plane > was in the air, and I am used to seeing those guns > at random positions in pictures > from actual missions. Also, I was wondering how > many planes participated in the > "Continental Express" trip, as there seem to be > quite a few planes lined up for takeoff > in the picture, and the picture in the air shows the > planes relatively close together as in > formation (ie not sure if they were flying formation > on the Continental Express). > It's probably not possible for me to tell > whether it was combat or not, but I just > thought there might be some way to tell. Also, I > thought people might be interested in > seeing the picture of the planes taxiing for > takeoff. Pictures are at: > > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/pui-taxi.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 14:02:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:02:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] wartime songs Message-ID: Whales eat eels and sharks eat eels and little squids eat oysters. Wow! B.H. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 14:06:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:06:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Message-ID: <2f.fb211bf.279700e4@aol.com> Welcome once more from the Bombardier on Fink's Crew, 303/360, in which Bob Peter Waist Gunner served. Good to hear from you and I hope Bob is doing well. Happy New Year to you and yours, and.....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 14:55:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (George Spoerl) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:55:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Message-ID: <20010117145524.16515.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm still trying to run down info on my Uncle Bob's service. I've gotten a pretty good amount so far, just looking to see how many missions he actually was on, and any other particulars. Waiting to see when the CD comes out, that may help alot. I still haven't heard from my Uncle in a long time, his alcoholism has taken a toll, it's entirely possible that he's passed away and we never were advised. Thanks for your reply. George Spoerl --- Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > Welcome once more from the Bombardier on Fink's > Crew, 303/360, in which Bob > Peter Waist Gunner served. Good to hear from you > and I hope Bob is doing > well. Happy New Year to you and yours, > and.....Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 20:12:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:12:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: "Gordon Alton" 's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:48:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20808-3A65FCC7-529@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Dear Gordy I just got through reading Your two pages of navigation instructions and I have to give you an A for effort. but you are singing to the choir. Most of us have been there. The first Air Division was made up of four combat wings. The 388, 381 and 91st were part of the !st Bomb Wing. The 303rd, 379th and 384th were part of the 41st combat wing. There were two other wings in the 1st Air Division. I recommed you try and get a copy of Harry Gobrecht's "Might and Flight." You will learn all about the air war. I know a litle about navigation. I graduated from Bombardier and Navigation schools. My crew was assigned to a PFF pool from April to June 6th of 1944. The second tour our group had their own radar equipped aircraft. I was recalled to active duty in August of 1949 and went through a six month refresher course in navigation before becoming an navigation instructor. I hold a master navigators rating. Tell your navigator friend that dead reckoing is the basis for all navigation. If you know the velocity of the wind and where it is blowing from you solved all your navigation problems. In polar navigation you have a few more problems. I also thinkyou are mixing up the GEE box with GH bombing which we started sometime in 1944. I don't wish to be critical for I salute you for wanting to know all you can about air navigation. Hal Susskid From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 20:31:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:31:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jan. 11, 1944 In-Reply-To: WDK19@aol.com's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:26:13 EST Message-ID: <20812-3A66011F-152@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill According to Roger Freeman's book, four groups bombed Halbertadt. They were:305th,306th,384th and 482nd. They lost 8 aircraft out of the 52 that bombed Halberstadt. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 20:47:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:47:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: <20808-3A65FCC7-529@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Gordon Alton" 's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:48:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3A65BE80.7275.31B619@localhost> > I also thinkyou are mixing up > the GEE box with GH bombing which we started sometime in 1944. Harold... I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate a bit more on the differences between navigating with the GEE box, and GH bombing. I understand what the GEE box was, but I also was under the false impression that GH bombing was just using the GEE box to guide the plane. What did GH refer to then??? Also, while you are at it, or if anyone else wants to comment, what if any differences are there between H2X and PFF targeting? I have a rudimentary understanding of what they are, but the terms seem to be used interchangeably. Was PFF just the more modern (in 1944) version of H2X??? Reason I ask, is that my father flew a PFF plane with the big radome in place of the ball turret, but in some of the notes I have, he refers to it as H2X equipment, and most of the mission narratives from the microfilm I have also refer to it as H2X. I assume they both refer to the same ground sensing radar imaging system, but perhaps H2X was the older name, or perhaps the British name for it. On several of the missions he flew, the lead plane carried the PFF equipment, but didn't have working GH equipment. The deputy lead plane carried GH equipment, but not PFF. Was it not possible or common to have both on board? Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 20:49:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:49:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Kein Betreff) In-Reply-To: Uwe Wiedemann 's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:09:59 +0100 Message-ID: <20813-3A660563-119@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Dear Uwe I haven't heard anything from Uwe Benkel. Maybe he is mad at me. He is on the mailing list to receive the quarterly newsletter. I have no idea if it is being delivered to him. Regarding Rex Reichert. Last I heard he wasn't feeling too well. Maybe he is hospitalized somewheres. His daughter lived in Esslingen also. Many thanks for your help. Best wishes Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 21:31:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:31:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:47:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20812-3A660F4C-182@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill Jones. The Gee Box was an aid to navigation. Like Loran it gave you a instant fix. Of course you had to have the charts to plot the fix on. Sometime after D-Day in 1944 they added someting to the box whereby you could bomb using it and ground transmitting stations. It was superior to the H2X especialy on small targets. We had some 303rd aircraft containing this equipeent and we used to loan out the aircraft and operator to other bomb groups. I usd to have to navigate the a/c to other groups at about 4 a.m. in the morning and I would come back by truck. PFF stood for pathfinder. I guess we adopted that name from the British who flew at night and used a pathfinder a/c to mark the target. I always referred to the radar as H2X. Of course there were other technical names lke APN something. After September 1944 you will see that on some lead planes they had a M-N for mickey navigator, GH-N for the GH-Navigator or bombardier and plain NAV for the Navigator. Very few of our lead planes had both. As PFF crews We did a lot of training between missions. I did more practice bombing runs on the Wash than I would care to mention I'm sure your dad did too. There was a lot of coordination between the mickey operator and the navigator.. If you had a good mickey operator you knew where you were at ll times. He could give you a bearing and distance from a town and all you would to do was plot it on your maps. Hope this answered your question. Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 17 22:55:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:55:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs Message-ID: <7a.f49ee2f.27977cf1@aol.com> About those old songs. I was a POW at Barth, Germany and we had a pretty good orchestra. Some of us "new guys" told the band about Mairzy Doats" and kind of hummed it. They wrote the music and played it one evening, with words. The Germans couldn't understand it so the banned it. The band wouldn't even think of using Spike Jones "In Der Fuerer's Face. Understandable. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 00:14:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:14:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jan. 11, 1944 Message-ID: --part1_d5.12063ae.27978f80_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: Thanks a lot for the information. That put me back on track. I was hoping that everything I had received so far was not wrong. It does not take much to get me confused. Take care. Thanks again. Bill in Brooklyn --part1_d5.12063ae.27978f80_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal:
   Thanks a lot for the information.  That put me back on track.  I was
hoping that everything I had received so far was not wrong.  It does not take
much to get me confused.  Take care.  Thanks again.
                                                                         
Bill in Brooklyn   --part1_d5.12063ae.27978f80_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 00:20:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:20:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Message-ID: <38.10c921bb.279790cb@aol.com> The 303rd CD is going to be one busy place when it arrives. Have no particulars on how many missions your uncle flew, but I'm sure you'll be able to get that info. Good Luck, and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 00:39:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:39:29 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs Message-ID: <26.fffb445.27979541@aol.com> Do you recall the after-War music of Katerina Valente singing songs like Malaguena in German? They used to call her the Hi-Fi Nightingale. What ever happened to her? Interesting that you had a band while POW...small wonder 'Der Fuehrer's Face" was banned! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 01:47:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:47:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe Message-ID: <3c.62f15ff.2797a527@aol.com> Hal Susskind--enjoyed reading your comments. I was one of the GH operators in the 303rd. I was loaned out to the 401st on 11/9/44 for the Metz area mission. Bombing results were excellent. Some where in my attic I have a strike photo of that mission and someday I'll find it. Regards Mike Zarelli From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 05:47:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 21:47:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe References: <3c.62f15ff.2797a527@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c08112$1f86db60$3e8af4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks for the comments and feedback on my original post. There is no substitute for being there, and it is nice for me to get that, and learn from it. That's what it all about. Thanks Hal, and others. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe > Hal Susskind--enjoyed reading your comments. I was one of the GH > operators in the 303rd. I was loaned out to the 401st on 11/9/44 for the Metz > area mission. Bombing results were excellent. Some where in my attic I have a > strike photo of that mission and someday I'll find it. > Regards > Mike Zarelli > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 07:12:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:12:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs References: <26.fffb445.27979541@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A669740.6215A0B8@newsfactory.net> Bob: As far as I know, Catherina Valente does live as a "retired" somewhere around Lake Lugano in the Italian spoken part of Switzerland. Cheers, Uwe Bhandsr@aol.com schrieb: > Do you recall the after-War music of Katerina Valente singing songs like > Malaguena in German? They used to call her the Hi-Fi Nightingale. What ever > happened to her? Interesting that you had a band while POW...small wonder > 'Der Fuehrer's Face" was banned! Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 22:55:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:55:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:info to pass on Message-ID: <5a.fef5aa2.2798ce57@aol.com> --part1_5a.fef5aa2.2798ce57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I flew one "Continental Express". I do not remember the minimum altitude, but I asked Peter Curry (now Judge Peter Michael Curry), who was sitting in the bombadiers seat, he wasn't sure but we had straw in the tail wheel and Curry replied that he thought he had just lost 10 pounds if you catch the jest of that comment. This happened one time when we landed at Molesworth. p.s.=> Gordon Alton- 1stBomb Division-388 was in 3rd AirDivision...do you mean the 398th or the 389th?. cheers W.H.(Bill) Bergeron --part1_5a.fef5aa2.2798ce57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      I flew one "Continental Express". I do not remember the minimum
altitude, but I asked Peter Curry (now Judge Peter Michael Curry), who was
sitting in the bombadiers seat, he wasn't sure but we had straw in the tail
wheel and Curry replied that he thought he had just lost 10 pounds if you
catch the jest of that comment. This happened one time when we landed at
Molesworth.
p.s.=> Gordon Alton-  1stBomb Division-388 was in 3rd AirDivision...do you
mean the 398th or the 389th?.
            cheers
W.H.(Bill) Bergeron --part1_5a.fef5aa2.2798ce57_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 18 20:21:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:21:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs References: <7a.f49ee2f.27977cf1@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c0818c$436e98e0$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Does anybody know all the words to "In Der Fuhrers Face" ? Matt Petersen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs > About those old songs. > I was a POW at Barth, Germany and we had a pretty good orchestra. Some of us > "new guys" told the band about Mairzy Doats" and kind of hummed it. They > wrote the music and played it one evening, with words. The Germans couldn't > understand it so the banned it. The band wouldn't even think of using Spike > Jones "In Der Fuerer's Face. Understandable. > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 19 01:41:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:41:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #130 - 14 msgs Message-ID: When Der Fuehrer says : They never bomb this place Ve Heil,Heil right in Der Fuehrer's face Not to love Der Fuehrer is a great disgrace So ve Heil, Heil right in Der Fuehrer's face Etc. etc. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 19 08:24:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:24:12 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:info to pass on References: <5a.fef5aa2.2798ce57@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c081f1$34358cc0$7f8af4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C081AE.25AD9780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Typos, I guess, were the order of the day on my first post.=20 The 1st Combat Wing was made up of the 91st, the 381st (assigned = June '43), and the 398th (assigned in the spring of '44) Bomb Groups. There were three other combat wings, the 40th, 41st, and the 94th, = which made up the 1st Air Division, and the 67th Fighter Wing was also = attached.=20 The 389th BG was in the 2nd CBW of the 2nd Air Division. The 388th = BG was in the 45th CBW of the 3rd Air Division. I was trying to get things on '303rd-talk' at about two in the morning, = after a long day, and then hit the hay. I'm usually not that careless. = Thanks for pointing out the mistakes, guys. Wrong info is worse than no = info. It is hard for us students of the war to follow sometimes, because = of the many changes that resulted as more men and planes joined the = battle. Groups were transferred to other theatres of war (such as the = 301st and 97th BGs). The full 36 ship CBW formations were a long time in = developing. Many missions were flown, and many men sacrificed, before = tactics and material were sufficient enough to push back the Luftwaffe = fighters and take the fight to the German heartland. I'm learning. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Shaddoe2@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Cc: Shaddoe2@aol.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 2:55 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:info to pass on To All,=20 I flew one "Continental Express". I do not remember the minimum=20 altitude, but I asked Peter Curry (now Judge Peter Michael Curry), who = was=20 sitting in the bombadiers seat, he wasn't sure but we had straw in the = tail=20 wheel and Curry replied that he thought he had just lost 10 pounds if = you=20 catch the jest of that comment. This happened one time when we landed = at=20 Molesworth.=20 p.s.=3D> Gordon Alton- 1stBomb Division-388 was in 3rd = AirDivision...do you=20 mean the 398th or the 389th?.=20 cheers=20 W.H.(Bill) Bergeron=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C081AE.25AD9780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Typos, I guess, were the order of the day on my = first post.=20
    The 1st Combat Wing was made up = of the=20 91st, the 381st (assigned June '43), and the 398th (assigned in the = spring=20 of '44) Bomb Groups.
    There were three other combat = wings, the=20 40th, 41st, and the 94th, which made up the 1st Air Division, and the = 67th=20 Fighter Wing was also attached.
    The 389th BG was in the 2nd CBW = of the 2nd=20 Air Division. The 388th BG was in the 45th CBW of the 3rd Air=20 Division.
I was trying to get things on '303rd-talk' at = about two=20 in the morning, after a long day, and then hit the hay. I'm usually not = that=20 careless. Thanks for pointing out the mistakes, guys. Wrong info is = worse than=20 no info.
    It is hard for us students = of the=20 war to follow sometimes, because of the many changes that resulted = as more=20 men and planes joined the battle. Groups were transferred to other = theatres of=20 war (such as the 301st and 97th BGs). The full 36 ship CBW formations = were a=20 long time in developing. Many missions were flown, and many men = sacrificed,=20 before tactics and material were sufficient enough to push back the = Luftwaffe=20 fighters and take the fight to the German heartland.
I'm learning.
 
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Shaddoe2@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 18, = 2001 2:55=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:info = to pass=20 on

To All,=20
      I flew one "Continental = Express". I do=20 not remember the minimum
altitude, but I asked Peter Curry (now = Judge=20 Peter Michael Curry), who was
sitting in the bombadiers seat, he = wasn't=20 sure but we had straw in the tail
wheel and Curry replied that he = thought=20 he had just lost 10 pounds if you
catch the jest of that comment. = This=20 happened one time when we landed at
Molesworth.
p.s.=3D> = Gordon=20 Alton-  1stBomb Division-388 was in 3rd AirDivision...do you =
mean the=20 398th or the 389th?.=20 =
           &nb= sp;cheers=20
W.H.(Bill) Bergeron ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C081AE.25AD9780-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 20 18:29:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:29:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Blockbuster movie..... Message-ID: <17.108201cd.279b3319@aol.com> Hello Uwe: Greetings from Florida....front just blew through with some much needed rain, but like Florida it's now sunny again. Don't know if you're into movies, but I stumbled on a nice one while my wife was scanning the "chick-flick" section. It stars Russell Crowe ( of Gladiator fame....much younger though) name of movie is "FOR THE MOMENT" about RCAF trainees and their romantic episodes, etc. Great air-to-air shots of Tiger Moth and other a/c....an accidental great find. Whatever turns you on! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 20 20:52:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:52:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] intro Message-ID: <001201c08322$fbe83600$f62664d8@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C082F0.9AD0A1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme. I was bombardier with Strickland crew in = 427th squadron. We were formed in Spokane in October l942. Flew to = England via southern route to Natal and Ascension Island thence up to = Marrakech and on to England. Finished tour September 43 and was posted = to 8th Bomber Command in Cuntoe, Ireland for 3 months to set up = reception center, returning to the States December 43. A 2 year stint = in B-24's at Smyrna AAB (later Sewart AFB) completed my active duty = although I stayed in Reserve and retired in l971 as LtCol. Will be glad = to hear from anyone interested. Ed =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C082F0.9AD0A1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme.  I was bombardier = with=20 Strickland crew in 427th squadron.  We were formed in Spokane in = October=20 l942.  Flew to England via southern route to Natal and Ascension = Island=20 thence up to Marrakech and on to England.  Finished tour  = September 43=20 and was posted to 8th Bomber Command  in Cuntoe, Ireland for 3 = months to=20 set up reception center, returning to the States December 43.  A 2 = year=20 stint in B-24's at Smyrna AAB (later Sewart AFB) completed  my = active duty=20 although I stayed in Reserve and retired in l971 as LtCol.  Will be = glad to=20 hear from anyone interested.   Ed
  
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C082F0.9AD0A1E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 02:52:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:52:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] intro Message-ID: Hi. My name is Larry Farrell. My Dad, Larry was in the 359th, co-pilot on the Smith crew during 1943. Did you know him? Thanks. Larry Farrell From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 03:50:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:50:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Larry Farrell Message-ID: <001501c0835d$6a7dcb40$bd2664d8@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0832B.0C57FFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Larry: I am sad to say I did not know your father. As our crew = arrived in Molesworth March l943, I abelieve the Smith crew had been = there ahead of us. It was strange, but two months made a lot of = difference in the crew relationships. After all, we were considered = rookies by the "veterans". Nice to hear from you and all the best. Ed = Lamme =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0832B.0C57FFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Larry:  I am sad to say I did not know your=20 father.  As our crew arrived in Molesworth March l943, I abelieve = the Smith=20 crew had been there ahead of us.  It was strange, but two months = made a lot=20 of difference in the crew relationships.  After all, we were = considered=20 rookies by the "veterans".  Nice to hear from you and all the=20 best.   Ed Lamme
  
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0832B.0C57FFE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 16:28:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:28:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Larry Farrell In-Reply-To: "Ed Lamme" 's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:50:47 -0600 Message-ID: <25334-3A6B0E2F-2953@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Our crew (Stoulil) arrived in the 359th in October of 1943. One mission could change the makeup of a squadron, like the Oschersleben mission on January 11, 1944. In those days You became veterans in a hurry. Hal Sussknd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 16:41:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:41:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Book! In-Reply-To: "Brian McGuire" 's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:31:05 -0000 Message-ID: <25328-3A6B112B-3398@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> It is a long story how that book evolved.It was not part of the original project. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 19:34:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:34:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] For all future e-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To Gary and the Rest of the 303rd Gang: For all future e-mail to me, please us: kevinmpearson@hotail.com Please eliminate my last e-mail - kpearson@saintjoseph.com - from your directories. Thanks! Kevin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 21 23:05:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:05:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:47:19 EST Message-ID: <25359-3A6B6B54-787@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mike Z Your name sounds quite familiar. I'm sure I talked to you when we were with the 303rd. There has been a lot of traffic on this site lately about the Gee box and GH bombing. Maybe you can take us through a GH bombing mission. When did you take over? At the I.P. ? I remember one mission in the Ruhr Valley when the GH operator turned to me and said the signals went out, we will have to go to the secondary. I was the navigator and I was real happy to be in a lead aircraft where we had radar aboard. We bombed using the Mickey operator. Best wishes. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 22 18:27:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:27:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #134 - 2 msgs Message-ID: --part1_bd.b0c3389.279dd5a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal This is your old friend Abbott Smith wiishing you well and wanting to reply to you message. As you know I was a lead crew Bombardier finishing up on 8/16/43. Later was stationed @ Aberdeen Proving ground testing bombs and fuses, and live bombs at times. You say, "what is your point". My point is that I haven't the slightest idea what you were talking about in your message. However I know the whole formation was most greatful for you being there. Our navigator was Capt Fred Illgen and in those earlier days he got us to the IP and back, one fantastic contribution.. Warm personal regards Abbott Smith --part1_bd.b0c3389.279dd5a0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal

      This is your old friend Abbott Smith wiishing you well and wanting to
reply
to you message.

      As you know I was a lead crew Bombardier finishing up on 8/16/43.  
Later
was stationed @ Aberdeen Proving ground testing bombs and fuses, and live
bombs at times.

      You say, "what is your point".  My point is that I haven't the
slightest idea
what you were talking about in your message.  However I know the whole
formation
was most greatful for you being there.  Our navigator was Capt Fred Illgen
and in
those earlier days he got us to the IP and back, one fantastic contribution..

      Warm personal regards
      Abbott Smith --part1_bd.b0c3389.279dd5a0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 22 18:47:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:47:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #134 - 2 msgs In-Reply-To: AMS303@aol.com's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:27:44 EST Message-ID: <3492-3A6C8024-1614@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I don't know which messge you are talking about. If it is the one about getting stuck in the Ruhr Valley after the signals on the GH go out then I'll tell you the "point of my story." As the lead navigator it was my job to get the GH operator to the I.P. or the point where he takes over to start his bomb run. Then he is the lead navigator and I follow. When the signals go out and we have to go to the secondary I sure as hell better know where I am so I can give the pilot the course to the secondary. The Ruhr valley with all its flak is no place to screw around. I don't think we did any GH bombing when you were with the 303rd. Best regards Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 23 00:38:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:38:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe Message-ID: <8.f3af7f0.279e2c78@aol.com> Hal Susskind---I'm sure our paths crossed more than once and I can document two occasions: On mission #267, 11/4/44, you were in Cole's lead crew & I was in Twomey's deputy lead crew. On mission #277 ,11/26/44, we were both in Kerwin,s lead crew. Re my GH experience- wish my memory were better & wish I had taken more notes, but it isn't and I didn,t ,so guess I'll have to wing it. Two ground stations sent up signals(lines of position) .The intersection of the two LOP's on the scope was the bomb release point. We would fly down the first LOP {identified by a coded blip on the scope} under the GH operator's direction { course adjustments given verbally to the pilot who maintained pre-determined air speed and altitude } until we hit the second LOP {identified by a differently coded blip on the scope}. At this the GH operator would tell the bombardier to release & the rest of the group aircraft would toggle their bomb loads. The "experts" told us that GH accuracy was within 200 ft. from an altitude of 10,000 ft. I seriuosly doubt this given all of the variables involved. But maybe it didn,t matter that much since the bomb pattern from a group of 36 or 39 B-17's dropping from 25000 ft. was approx. one square mile. Best regards Mike Zarelli From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 24 15:58:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:58:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #135 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <48.10884045.27a0558e@aol.com> --part1_48.10884045.27a0558e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Good to hear from you, yes I was talking about your Ruhr Valley Mission. Being a top flligh navigator you might appreciate this. At the end of WW2 my brother's destroyer the Kimberly came into Wilmington, Delaware where, incidentally I as living at the time. My father had a little reception and I was talking to one of the officers and asked him which clown missed the mouth of the Delaware. To my embarrassment he said he was. So much for Navy navagators Regards Abbott --part1_48.10884045.27a0558e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal
Good to hear from you, yes I was talking about your Ruhr Valley Mission.

Being a top flligh navigator you might appreciate this.

At the end of WW2 my brother's destroyer the Kimberly came into Wilmington,
Delaware where, incidentally I as living at the time.

My father had a little reception and I was talking to one of the officers  
and asked him
which clown missed the mouth of the Delaware. To my embarrassment he said
he was.  So much for Navy navagators

Regards
Abbott --part1_48.10884045.27a0558e_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 24 16:33:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:33:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] For all future e-mail References: Message-ID: <001701c08623$520c77a0$26f833cf@richards> Kevin : This is Spider Smith . You have never responded to me about Spiders Story. there is a link to it on The 303rd web page. Let me know what you think . Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] For all future e-mail > > To Gary and the Rest of the 303rd Gang: For all future e-mail to me, please > us: > > kevinmpearson@hotail.com > > Please eliminate my last e-mail - kpearson@saintjoseph.com - from your > directories. > > Thanks! > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 24 19:51:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:51:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #135 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: AMS303@aol.com's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:58:06 EST Message-ID: <364-3A6F3256-753@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Abbott can you top this about Navy navigators? In 1954 I was flying with the Air Rescue Service out of Bermuda. One day a Navy crew from Norfolk on a whiskey run took off from Bermuda with their whiskey bound for Norfolk. Several hours later knowing he was lost the pilot called for a fix. It showed him to be 100 mies south of Argentia, Newfoundland. He completely missed the United States. Instead of going ino Argentia he decided to come back to Bermuda. We had to send an SB-29 to lead him back. He was 675 miles off couse on a 500 mile flight. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 24 20:31:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:31:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: <20812-3A660F4C-182@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Jones" 's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:47:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3A6EF569.16271.1C5EB0C@localhost> Bringing back a post from several days ago; > .... The Gee Box was an aid to navigation. Like Loran it gave > you a instant fix. Of course you had to have the charts to plot the fix > on. Sometime after D-Day in 1944 they added someting to the box whereby > you could bomb using it and ground transmitting stations. I thought I understood things after reading this, however just yesterday, I received the new Feb newsletter, and there is an article in it by Ray Holland, which discusses these things. It didn't go into much detail, but it made the comment that : " A new version of GEE called G-H, emerged later in the war, designed for blind bombing.................... It contained its own transmitter and did not rely on ground stations for it's operation." I'm a bit confused by this statement, ie how it could have operated without ground stations. I'm not sure how a transmitter could be used, without having repeater stations on the ground. That statement made it sound more like the PFF radar than the GEE. Anyway, I'm confused again. Was the statement in the newsletter in error? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 24 21:59:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:59:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe Message-ID: <3A6EEDEC.6260.18BA707@localhost> I sent Bill's comments on to Newsletter Editor Eddie Deerfield, who is not on 303-Talk. Below is his reply. When you reply to this, please copy it to Eddie Deerfield at: ED303fsra@aol.com ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: ED303fsra@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:54:55 EST Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe To: glm@303rdbga.com Gary, Ray Holland described the G-H improvement as a blind bombing instrument which did not rely on ground stations. Bill Jones refers to "something" being added to the Gee Box "whereby you could bomb using it and ground transmitting stations." That, in itself, is confusing because the basic Gee did precisely that without the addition of "something." Is Jones referring to the G-H or to another "something?" Clearly, if they're both referring to the G-H, one is in error about operational reliance on ground stations. I'm no authority and would have to go back to Ray for clarification. Please message Jones with Ray's description of the G-H and ask him for comment. I never bug my writers after the fact unless I have good cause to do so. Eddie ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 25 17:30:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:30:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Navigation with Gee and Oboe In-Reply-To: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:59:56 -0700 Message-ID: <8157-3A7062CC-834@storefull-243.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Gary Why don't they read Mike Zarelli's message of January 22nd on GH bombing. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 26 01:49:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:49:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You Message-ID: <96.f361527.27a231bb@aol.com> --part1_96.f361527.27a231bb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for letting me subscribe to your mailing list. I have always been interested in WW2 bombers, because my dad was a flight engineer on a B-24, with the 459th Bomb Group. I have become aquainted with the 303rd bomb group through a gentleman who was in the 427th bomb squadron, 303rd bomb group. His name is Merlin Miller. He helped write the book "Three Engines, Half a Wing and a Prayer". He was a tail gunner on Capt. Hullar's crew in the "Old Squaw", and I believe the Vicious Virgin. I am excited about being on your list. Again, thank you. Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.com --part1_96.f361527.27a231bb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Thank you for letting me subscribe to your mailing list. I have
always been interested in WW2 bombers, because my dad was a flight engineer
on a B-24, with the 459th Bomb Group. I have become aquainted with the 303rd
bomb group through a gentleman who was in the 427th bomb squadron, 303rd bomb
group. His name is Merlin Miller. He helped write the book "Three Engines,
Half a Wing and a Prayer". He was a tail gunner on Capt. Hullar's crew in the
"Old Squaw", and I believe the Vicious Virgin. I am excited about being on
your list. Again, thank you.       
  Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.com --part1_96.f361527.27a231bb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 26 02:46:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:46:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank You In-Reply-To: <96.f361527.27a231bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A70827B.25901.1BAC6BD@localhost> Terry, Glad to have you here. There's some smart guys here and some like me that just read and learn, but don't say much. Thanks for joining. > Thank you for letting me subscribe to your mailing list. I have > always been interested in WW2 bombers, because my dad was a flight engineer > on a B-24, with the 459th Bomb Group. I have become aquainted with the 303rd > bomb group through a gentleman who was in the 427th bomb squadron, 303rd bomb > group. His name is Merlin Miller. He helped write the book "Three Engines, > Half a Wing and a Prayer". He was a tail gunner on Capt. Hullar's crew in the > "Old Squaw", and I believe the Vicious Virgin. I am excited about being on > your list. Again, thank you. > Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.com > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 27 17:42:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:42:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #137 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <95.61b19d6.27a46274@aol.com> --part1_95.61b19d6.27a46274_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal I can't top that whisky problem of the Navy. However, while I was at Bovington Combat Crew Replacement Center after completing my combat tour 8/16/43 General needed some Irish Linens so I flew as navigator in a B-17 to Belfast to get them. Well, I on the way back I miscalculated the winds in the Irish Sea and made UK landfall way off course. A couple of Spitfires came up on our wing and they all had a good laugh. Anyway, I got my flying time in. Best wishes Hall Abbott PS Later on a cruise ship in the Irish Sea I found out first had how rough the waves and wind could be.. --part1_95.61b19d6.27a46274_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal
      I can't top that whisky problem of the Navy.

      However, while I was at Bovington Combat Crew Replacement Center after
completing my combat tour 8/16/43 General needed some Irish Linens so I flew
as navigator in a B-17 to Belfast to get them.

      Well, I on the way back I miscalculated the winds in the Irish Sea and
made
UK landfall way off course.  A couple of Spitfires came up on our wing and
they
all had a good laugh.  Anyway, I got  my flying time in.

      Best wishes Hall

      Abbott

PS Later on a cruise ship in the Irish Sea I found out first had how rough
the waves
and wind could be.. --part1_95.61b19d6.27a46274_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 28 00:45:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:45:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <000c01c088c3$8d855660$e28e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08899.A2C88D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In regard to old songs mentioned by my friends in recent mail; may I = add one of my favorites that I feel may be appropriate. The song was = entitled, " We'll meet again " and I believe Vera Lynn made it = significantly poignant at the time, and now the song is like an embrace. My respects to everyone of you, and to the families of Roy Quinn ( an = unsung hero of S for Sugar), and Lloyd Shirley. I sincerely hope that there is, if not a place, at least an eternal = moment where the prophesy and the song, and the people come together. " We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when, but we'll meet = again...." Lloyd=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08899.A2C88D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In regard to old songs mentioned by my = friends in=20 recent mail;  may I add one of my favorites that I feel may be=20 appropriate.  The song was entitled, " We'll meet again " and I = believe=20 Vera Lynn made it significantly poignant at the time, and now the song = is like=20 an embrace.
My respects to everyone of you, and to = the families=20 of Roy Quinn ( an unsung hero of S for Sugar), and Lloyd = Shirley.
I sincerely hope that there is, if not = a place, at=20 least an eternal moment where the prophesy and the song, and the people = come=20 together.
" We'll meet again, don't know where, = don't know=20 when, but we'll  meet again...."  Lloyd
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08899.A2C88D00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 28 01:48:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:48:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <9b.1011f4f8.27a4d487@aol.com> Didn't the film "Stairway to Heaven" with David Niven have an "assembly" scene something like the meeting in eternity you describe. That would be really neat! Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 28 04:23:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:23:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] We'll meet again Message-ID: <001001c088e2$1856c4e0$f48f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C088B8.2D5FFFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope there will be some good back ground music, Bob, where ever it may = be. "wink". Meanwhile, lets soldier on... Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C088B8.2D5FFFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hope there will be some good back = ground music,=20 Bob, where ever it may be.  "wink".  Meanwhile, lets soldier = on...=20 Lloyd.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C088B8.2D5FFFC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 28 21:35:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:35:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Message-ID: --part1_ab.5e0d8da.27a5ea97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Loyd Shirley This message isn't quite on the subject but I was there in the 427th Squadron when Loyhd Shirley was there . We were good friends and it seems to me we met at a reunion, but am not sure. Abbott Smith --part1_ab.5e0d8da.27a5ea97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Loyd Shirley
      This message isn't quite on the subject but I was there in the 427th
Squadron
when Loyhd Shirley was there .  We were good friends and it seems to me we
met at a reunion, but am not sure.

      Abbott Smith --part1_ab.5e0d8da.27a5ea97_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 28 22:45:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:45:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: --part1_b8.111a9811.27a5fb23_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abbott, do you remember a SIG. by the name of Merlin Miller with the 427th? I have known him for about a year. He was a tail-gunner on the Vicious Virgin and Old Squaw and and other planes that I recall. He is still living here in Indiana. He was on Capt. Hullar's plane. He also helped write the book "Three Engines Half Wing and a Prayer." My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in the 15th AF in Italy. Thanks Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.om --part1_b8.111a9811.27a5fb23_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abbott, do you remember a SIG. by the name of Merlin Miller with the 427th?
I have known him for about a year. He was a tail-gunner on the Vicious Virgin
and Old Squaw and and other planes that I recall. He is still living here in
Indiana. He was on Capt. Hullar's plane. He also helped write the book "Three
Engines Half Wing and a Prayer." My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in
the 15th AF in Italy. Thanks Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.om
     --part1_b8.111a9811.27a5fb23_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 14:46:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:46:36 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] We'll meet again Message-ID: <40.6b35a49.27a6dc4c@aol.com> Virtually a surety! Elsewise, how do you account for 6 year old prodigies who play piano and violin with such mastery and emotion? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 16:40:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs References: Message-ID: <000d01c08a12$39509280$e5194e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C089E8.4CAE8E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your input regarding Lloyd Shirley. I am = researching the incident over Kiel sub pens in May of '43 on which Don = Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have been his 25th). The B-17 = was S-for-Sugar. If you knew Lloyd Shirley , perhaps you might also = have know something about what happened. I have a rather dry mission = report from the files at the 303rd. My father was navigatior on this = mission and it was the only mission he ever talked to me about before he = passed away in 1985. Anything you might have is valuable however = insignificant it may seem. Very best, and thank you again. Lloyd = Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AMS303@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Re Loyd Shirley=20 This message isn't quite on the subject but I was there in the = 427th=20 Squadron=20 when Loyhd Shirley was there . We were good friends and it seems to = me we=20 met at a reunion, but am not sure.=20 Abbott Smith=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C089E8.4CAE8E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your = input regarding=20 Lloyd Shirley. I am researching the incident over Kiel sub pens in May = of '43 on=20 which Don Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have been his = 25th).  The=20 B-17 was S-for-Sugar.  If you knew Lloyd Shirley , perhaps you = might also=20 have know something about what happened.  I have a rather dry = mission=20 report from the files at the 303rd.  My father was navigatior on = this=20 mission and it was the only mission he ever talked to me about before he = passed=20 away in 1985.  Anything you might have is valuable however = insignificant it=20 may seem.  Very best, and thank you again.  Lloyd = Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AMS303@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 = 4:35=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Re Loyd = Shirley=20
      This message isn't quite on = the=20 subject but I was there in the 427th
Squadron
when Loyhd = Shirley was=20 there .  We were good friends and it seems to me we
met at a = reunion,=20 but am not sure.

      Abbott=20 Smith ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C089E8.4CAE8E60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 16:42:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:42:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] We'll meet again References: <40.6b35a49.27a6dc4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c08a12$8a143b40$e5194e0c@netzero> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] We'll meet again > Virtually a surety! Elsewise, how do you account for 6 year old prodigies who > play piano and violin with such mastery and emotion? Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 18:47:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:47:23 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Robert A. Coltrane, bombadier Message-ID: <43.ff85c87.27a714bb@aol.com> I would like to introduce myself. My name is Karin Coltrane Burwinkel. My dad's only brother was Robert Coltrane. He was KIA on March 18, 1943. He was on the mission to bomb Vegesack. This past summer when I went to visit my father's grave I decided to take the extra time to find my uncle's grave site. I spent over 2 hours there but could not find it. I asked some of my family members but noone seemed to know. I am still going to find that out... Our family passed down memorabilia to the oldest sons. We have slave papers and deeds and all of my Uncle Bob's letters, clippings, etc. I asked my brother if I could look through those things and he welcomed me to take a look. WOW!!! I am immersed in it and I am just fascinated! I had to write and tell you about it. I know this posting is getting long but I must share a portion of one of his letters with you. It is titled: Air Cadet Jargon 1. Back in your hole: Return to your room. 2. Bird Dog: One who cuts in on another's girl. 3. Brace: An exaggerated position of attention. 4. Spoony: Neat, meticulous 5. Bunk Flying: Talking avaition in the barracks 6. Cadet Widow: A young lady who has been known by several classes of aviation cadets. 7. Dawn Patrolling: Arising before reveille (practiced by unpopular roommates) 8. Dodo: A name given to a lower classman which he retains until he is promoted to the upper class. 9. Get Eager: Strive to the utmost. 10. Get your head out of the cockpit: Pay attention to what is going on. 11. GI: Government Issue; also enlisted men. 12. Gig: A demerit; also verb denoting giving of a demerit. 13. Gross: In great need of correction and improvement. 14. Gunner: One who sits at the foot of the table at mess, and sees to it that all dishes are refilled. 15. Hit those doors: A command for the Dodos to get out of their rooms in a big hurry. 16. Hold it down: Suppress the noise. 17. H.P. or Hot Pilot: One who is exceptionally adept at flying, in his own opinion. 18. In a storm: Flustered, upset, excited. 19. Jeep: Link trainer 20. Mr. Dowilly: Dodo 21. Mr. Dumbjohn: Another dodo 22. Mr. Dumbsquat: A third dodo 23. Pea shooter: Pursuit plane 24. Pop to it: Expand one's chest to the limit. 25. Pinch my finger: To pinch an upperclassman's finger with your shoulder blades. 26. Pull Wings in: Tuck your elbows into your sides. 27. Rap it back: Pull chin in. This letter was written while he was in training at Maxwell Field in Alabama (Jan. 31, 1942). God Bless you all - Karin Karinrich@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 19:39:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:39:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Robert A. Coltrane, bombadier In-Reply-To: <43.ff85c87.27a714bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A75647D.3658.15FDDB@localhost> > > I would like to introduce myself. My name is Karin Coltrane Burwinkel. My > dad's only brother was Robert Coltrane. He was KIA on March 18, 1943. He Karin, That Aviation Cadet slang is great! Thanks for posting it. I may use it on one of my web pages. Your uncle was on the 358th Charles N. Austin Crew. That is one of the crew photos we are missing. Do you have a copy of that in the papers you have? We'd love to get a copy. Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 20:21:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:21:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #140 - 5 msgs Message-ID: --part1_b7.afbc508.27a72aac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loyd You picked the right one to ask about that mission on the 14th of May 1943 to the submarine pens at Kiel. I was there. It was the worst mission for me as well as for your father..As Tom Brokar would say in your own words: Our Co Pilot Woodley was hit by an exploding 20mm shell that went right over my head and hit him in the shoulder, the top turret gunner Sgt Gray was also hit and wounded. The pilot Lt Lipe (we called him Coach) called and got me up to help him and get Woody away from the controls.. There was blood all over the instrument panel. We banaged Woodley up. Lipe and I decided we go down on the deck and try to make it back alone. We did. Later I went in the ambulance to the Cambridge American Cemetary with the two bodies. Recently Eddie Deerfield sent me pictures of Woodley's grave. This was a very bad experience, the worst. Loyd, two days later I believe your Dad flew with Squadron CO Major Hagenbuch back to Kiel as the lead crew navigator of the composite Group . Dick Dubel CO Pilot often flew with us and the navigator was your Dad with Loyd Shirly the bombardier. It was your Dad's 25th mission. After those extremely trumatic days it is small wonder your Dad didn't talk much My son learned most of what I did through my lead crew pics on this WEB Site. ( Also mission data) Your father would have been very proud and comfoted by his son's interest in his combat career. Regads Abbott Smith --part1_b7.afbc508.27a72aac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loyd
      You picked the right one to ask about that mission on the 14th of May
1943 to the submarine pens at Kiel. I was there.

      It was the worst mission for me as well as for your father..As Tom
Brokar
would say in your own words:

      Our Co Pilot Woodley was hit by an exploding 20mm shell that went right
over my head and hit him in the shoulder, the top turret gunner Sgt Gray was
also hit and wounded.

      The pilot Lt Lipe (we called him Coach) called and got me up to help
him and
get Woody away from the controls.. There was blood  all over the instrument
panel.
We banaged Woodley up.  Lipe and I decided we go down on the deck and try to
make it back alone. We did.

      Later I went in the ambulance to the Cambridge American Cemetary with
the
two bodies.  Recently Eddie Deerfield sent me pictures of Woodley's grave.

      This was a very bad experience, the worst. Loyd, two days later I
believe
your Dad flew with Squadron CO Major Hagenbuch back to Kiel as the  lead crew
navigator of the composite Group .

      Dick Dubel CO Pilot often flew with us and the navigator was your Dad
with
Loyd Shirly the bombardier.  It was your Dad's 25th mission. After those
extremely
trumatic days it is small wonder your Dad didn't talk much  

      My son learned most of what I did  through my lead crew pics on this
WEB Site.  ( Also mission data)  

      Your father would have been very proud and comfoted by his son's
interest in
his combat career.
      Regads
      Abbott Smith

























       --part1_b7.afbc508.27a72aac_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 29 20:38:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:38:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs References: <000d01c08a12$39509280$e5194e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <000001c08a35$9ceab0a0$2f3f22d1@billowen> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C08A01.17DAF5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lloyd Grant, I have a little info on both Kiel raids in May of '43. If = you will send me your mailing address then I will be happy to send you = what I have.=20 Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your input regarding Lloyd Shirley. I am = researching the incident over Kiel sub pens in May of '43 on which Don = Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have been his 25th). The B-17 = was S-for-Sugar. If you knew Lloyd Shirley , perhaps you might also = have know something about what happened. I have a rather dry mission = report from the files at the 303rd. My father was navigatior on this = mission and it was the only mission he ever talked to me about before he = passed away in 1985. Anything you might have is valuable however = insignificant it may seem. Very best, and thank you again. Lloyd = Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AMS303@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Re Loyd Shirley=20 This message isn't quite on the subject but I was there in the = 427th=20 Squadron=20 when Loyhd Shirley was there . We were good friends and it seems to = me we=20 met at a reunion, but am not sure.=20 Abbott Smith=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C08A01.17DAF5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lloyd Grant, I have a little info on = both Kiel=20 raids in May of '43. If you will send me your mailing address then I = will be=20 happy to send you what I have.
Bill Owen     owen26@tucomm.net
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd=20 J H Grant
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 = 10:40=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your = input=20 regarding Lloyd Shirley. I am researching the incident over Kiel sub = pens in=20 May of '43 on which Don Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have = been his=20 25th).  The B-17 was S-for-Sugar.  If you knew Lloyd Shirley = ,=20 perhaps you might also have know something about what happened.  = I have a=20 rather dry mission report from the files at the 303rd.  My father = was=20 navigatior on this mission and it was the only mission he ever talked = to me=20 about before he passed away in 1985.  Anything you might have is = valuable=20 however insignificant it may seem.  Very best, and thank you = again. =20 Lloyd Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AMS303@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 28, = 2001 4:35=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Re Loyd = Shirley=20
      This message isn't quite on = the=20 subject but I was there in the 427th
Squadron
when Loyhd = Shirley was=20 there .  We were good friends and it seems to me we
met at = a=20 reunion, but am not sure. =

      Abbott=20 Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C08A01.17DAF5C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 01:38:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:38:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs References: <000d01c08a12$39509280$e5194e0c@netzero> <000001c08a35$9ceab0a0$2f3f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <000f01c08a5d$6c957660$ab904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C08A33.81AF7A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bill, thank you. My mailing address is: Lloyd J. Grant, PO Box = 5015, Lakeland, Fl. 33807. Here is some background. My father was Lt. LH (Larry) Grant. He was = navigator on Don Stocktons' original crew, as was Lloyd Shirley (B) and = Roy Q. Smith (tt-E). JC Barker was the co-pilot. The incident took = place on mission #35. Stocktons' original assigned plane was called Joe = BTSFPLK, but that day they were flying S-for-Sugar. Stockton was hit by = a 20mm round and fell over the controls causing the plane to go out of = control. Stockton was KIA on his 25th mission. To the best of my = knowledge there were no other casualties. Lt. Barker with the aid of = flight eng. Smith managed to get the plane back under control and = rejoined the formation. I am haunted in a way by this action as it was the only one my father = told me about. In my opinion, Roy Smith and JC Barker were instrumental = in saving the entire crew. Unfortunately, everyone in Dons' original = crew is now deceased. So , I rely on any information I can glean. = Thanks to you and others, it is not hopeless. Very best of the New Year = to you and your family, Bill. Respectfully, LLoyd Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Owen=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Lloyd Grant, I have a little info on both Kiel raids in May of '43. If = you will send me your mailing address then I will be happy to send you = what I have.=20 Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your input regarding Lloyd Shirley. I = am researching the incident over Kiel sub pens in May of '43 on which = Don Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have been his 25th). The = B-17 was S-for-Sugar. If you knew Lloyd Shirley , perhaps you might = also have know something about what happened. I have a rather dry = mission report from the files at the 303rd. My father was navigatior on = this mission and it was the only mission he ever talked to me about = before he passed away in 1985. Anything you might have is valuable = however insignificant it may seem. Very best, and thank you again. = Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AMS303@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs Re Loyd Shirley=20 This message isn't quite on the subject but I was there in = the 427th=20 Squadron=20 when Loyhd Shirley was there . We were good friends and it seems = to me we=20 met at a reunion, but am not sure.=20 Abbott Smith=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C08A33.81AF7A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Bill, thank you.  My mailing = address=20 is:  Lloyd J. Grant, PO Box 5015, Lakeland, Fl.  = 33807.
Here is some background.  My = father was Lt. LH=20 (Larry) Grant. He was navigator on Don Stocktons' original crew, as was = Lloyd=20 Shirley (B) and Roy Q. Smith (tt-E). JC Barker was the co-pilot.  = The=20 incident took place on mission #35.  Stocktons' original assigned = plane was=20 called Joe BTSFPLK, but that day they were flying S-for-Sugar.  = Stockton=20 was hit by a 20mm round and fell over the controls causing the plane to = go out=20 of control. Stockton was KIA on his 25th mission.  To the best of = my=20 knowledge there were no other casualties. Lt. Barker with the aid of = flight eng.=20 Smith managed to get the plane back under control and rejoined the=20 formation.
I am haunted in a way by this action as = it was the=20 only one my father told me about.  In my opinion, Roy Smith and JC = Barker=20 were instrumental in saving the entire crew.  Unfortunately, = everyone in=20 Dons' original crew is now deceased.  So , I rely on any = information I can=20 glean.  Thanks to you and others, it is not hopeless.  Very = best of=20 the New Year to you and your family, Bill.  Respectfully,  = LLoyd=20 Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill = Owen=20
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 = 3:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Lloyd Grant, I have a little info on = both Kiel=20 raids in May of '43. If you will send me your mailing address then I = will be=20 happy to send you what I have.
Bill Owen     owen26@tucomm.net
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd J H Grant
Sent: Monday, January 29, = 2001 10:40=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Dear Mr. Smith, Thank you for your = input=20 regarding Lloyd Shirley. I am researching the incident over Kiel sub = pens in=20 May of '43 on which Don Stockton was KIA ( I believe it was to have = been his=20 25th).  The B-17 was S-for-Sugar.  If you knew Lloyd = Shirley ,=20 perhaps you might also have know something about what = happened.  I have=20 a rather dry mission report from the files at the 303rd.  My = father was=20 navigatior on this mission and it was the only mission he ever = talked to me=20 about before he passed away in 1985.  Anything you might have = is=20 valuable however insignificant it may seem.  Very best, and = thank you=20 again.  Lloyd Grant.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 AMS303@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 28, = 2001 4:35=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #139 - 4 msgs

Re Loyd = Shirley=20
      This message isn't quite = on the=20 subject but I was there in the 427th
Squadron
when Loyhd = Shirley=20 was there .  We were good friends and it seems to me we =
met at a=20 reunion, but am not sure.=20

      Abbott Smith=20
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C08A33.81AF7A20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 01:50:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:50:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #140 - 5 msgs References: Message-ID: <001901c08a5e$f79a0900$ab904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08A35.0BE30120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mr. Smith, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your response = and help. It is a terrible thing to ask, but I hope that more of those = that were really there will find some way to tell it like it was. I = don't think most people really understand. I am glad for the History = Channel, but I would not want to rely on them for reality and accuracy. = "Entertainment" is not the legacy that you men deserve. Very best regards, sir, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AMS303@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #140 - 5 msgs Loyd=20 You picked the right one to ask about that mission on the 14th = of May=20 1943 to the submarine pens at Kiel. I was there.=20 It was the worst mission for me as well as for your father..As = Tom=20 Brokar=20 would say in your own words:=20 Our Co Pilot Woodley was hit by an exploding 20mm shell that = went right=20 over my head and hit him in the shoulder, the top turret gunner Sgt = Gray was=20 also hit and wounded.=20 The pilot Lt Lipe (we called him Coach) called and got me up to = help=20 him and=20 get Woody away from the controls.. There was blood all over the = instrument=20 panel.=20 We banaged Woodley up. Lipe and I decided we go down on the deck and = try to=20 make it back alone. We did.=20 Later I went in the ambulance to the Cambridge American Cemetary = with=20 the=20 two bodies. Recently Eddie Deerfield sent me pictures of Woodley's = grave.=20 This was a very bad experience, the worst. Loyd, two days later = I=20 believe=20 your Dad flew with Squadron CO Major Hagenbuch back to Kiel as the = lead crew=20 navigator of the composite Group .=20 Dick Dubel CO Pilot often flew with us and the navigator was = your Dad=20 with=20 Loyd Shirly the bombardier. It was your Dad's 25th mission. After = those=20 extremely=20 trumatic days it is small wonder your Dad didn't talk much =20 My son learned most of what I did through my lead crew pics on = this=20 WEB Site. ( Also mission data) =20 Your father would have been very proud and comfoted by his son's = interest in=20 his combat career.=20 Regads=20 Abbott Smith=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08A35.0BE30120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr. Smith,  I cannot tell you = how much I=20 appreciate your response and help.  It is a terrible thing to ask, = but I=20 hope that more of those that were really there will find some way to = tell it=20 like it was.  I don't think most people really understand.  I = am glad=20 for the History Channel, but I would not want to rely on them for = reality and=20 accuracy.  "Entertainment" is not the legacy that you men=20 deserve.
Very best regards, sir,   = Lloyd=20 Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AMS303@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 = 3:21=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #140 - 5 msgs

Loyd=20
      You picked the right one to = ask about=20 that mission on the 14th of May
1943 to the submarine pens at = Kiel. I was=20 there.

      It was the worst = mission=20 for me as well as for your father..As Tom
Brokar
would say = in=20 your own words: =

      Our Co=20 Pilot Woodley was hit by an exploding 20mm shell that went right =
over my=20 head and hit him in the shoulder, the top turret gunner Sgt Gray was =
also=20 hit and wounded.

      The pilot = Lt Lipe=20 (we called him Coach) called and got me up to help
him and
get = Woody=20 away from the controls.. There was blood  all over the instrument =
panel.
We banaged Woodley up.  Lipe and I decided we go = down on=20 the deck and try to
make it back alone. We did.=20

      Later I went in the = ambulance to=20 the Cambridge American Cemetary with
the
two bodies. =  Recently=20 Eddie Deerfield sent me pictures of Woodley's grave.=20

      This was a very bad = experience,=20 the worst. Loyd, two days later I
believe
your Dad flew with = Squadron=20 CO Major Hagenbuch back to Kiel as the  lead crew=20
navigator of the composite Group .=20

      Dick Dubel CO Pilot often = flew=20 with us and the navigator was your Dad
with
Loyd Shirly the=20 bombardier.  It was your Dad's 25th mission. After those =
extremely=20
trumatic days it is small wonder your Dad didn't talk much  =20

      My son learned most of = what I did=20  through my lead crew pics on this
WEB Site.  ( Also = mission=20 data)  

      Your father = would=20 have been very proud and comfoted by his son's
interest in
his = combat=20 career.
      Regads=20
      Abbott Smith=20 =

















<= BR>






      =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08A35.0BE30120-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 03:27:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:27:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) Message-ID: <000a01c08a6c$a5477a80$4e874d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C08A42.BA79E840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If a cadre of original members and family of the individual squadrons = were to concentrate their efforts to compile a history of each of the = four squadrons based upon first hand accounts, historical archives, and = memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort might contribute to the whole = understanding for future generations and help answer some questiions = that are specific to the service of all, and yet unique to each unit. My specific interest is the 427th Sq. as a unit of the 303rd. Would an idea like this (ie support groups , for lack of a better word ) = have any validity to the common cause? I would appreciate all input, = pro, or , con. Thanks. L. Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C08A42.BA79E840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If a cadre of original members and = family of the=20 individual squadrons were to concentrate their efforts to compile a = history of=20 each of the four squadrons based upon first hand accounts, historical = archives,=20 and memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort might contribute to the = whole=20 understanding for future generations and help answer some questiions = that are=20 specific to the service of all, and yet unique to each = unit.
My specific interest is the 427th Sq. = as a unit of=20 the 303rd.
Would an idea like this (ie support = groups , for=20 lack of a better word ) have any validity to the common cause?  I = would=20 appreciate all input, pro, or , con.  Thanks. L.=20 Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C08A42.BA79E840-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 12:57:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:57:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Robert A. Coltrane, bombadier Message-ID: <31.fce9821.27a81449@aol.com> Have a question what does "D" stand for in D-Day ??had only thought it was used for the European invasion until I was reading "Flags of our Fathers & D-Day is used in the Iwo Jima landing too From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 19:33:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:33:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <000a01c08a6c$a5477a80$4e874d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <002701c08af3$8dfe1960$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C08AC9.A46F6FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lloyd, It is without a doubt that such an effort would be helpful for = future generations. The 303rd Web site is an example of this. Obtaining = an exact account of experiences is a difficult task but a reasonable = perspective can be obtained. I know personally I would care to send a = number of photos and other information to the 303rd web site some day. Matt Petersen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd Talk=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) If a cadre of original members and family of the individual squadrons = were to concentrate their efforts to compile a history of each of the = four squadrons based upon first hand accounts, historical archives, and = memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort might contribute to the whole = understanding for future generations and help answer some questiions = that are specific to the service of all, and yet unique to each unit. My specific interest is the 427th Sq. as a unit of the 303rd. Would an idea like this (ie support groups , for lack of a better word = ) have any validity to the common cause? I would appreciate all input, = pro, or , con. Thanks. L. Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C08AC9.A46F6FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lloyd,
    It is without a doubt that such = an effort=20 would be helpful for future generations. The 303rd Web site is an = example of=20 this. Obtaining an exact account of experiences is a difficult task but = a=20 reasonable perspective can be obtained. I know personally I would care = to send a=20 number of photos and other information to the 303rd web site some=20 day.
 
Matt Petersen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd=20 J H Grant
To: 303rd=20 Talk
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 = 10:27=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] A = suggestion for=20 the history of the 303rd BG(H)

If a cadre of original members and = family of the=20 individual squadrons were to concentrate their efforts to compile a = history of=20 each of the four squadrons based upon first hand accounts, historical=20 archives, and memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort might = contribute to=20 the whole understanding for future generations and help answer some = questiions=20 that are specific to the service of all, and yet unique to each=20 unit.
My specific interest is the 427th Sq. = as a unit=20 of the 303rd.
Would an idea like this (ie support = groups , for=20 lack of a better word ) have any validity to the common cause?  I = would=20 appreciate all input, pro, or , con.  Thanks. L.=20 Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C08AC9.A46F6FC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 20:47:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:47:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report Message-ID: <001501c08afd$de4cada0$373f22d1@billowen> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C08ACB.92A5AFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In June, 2000, I wrote to the National Archives and Records = Administration in College Park, Maryland and requested the Missing Air = Crew Report for my brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial = number of their plane, the date of the crash, the location of the crash, = all the crew names and the fate of each crewman. I also included my = brother's serial number. Does any of you know how I can get these people = to respond to me? So far I have heard nothing. I would appreciate any = advice from anyone who has dealt with this agency. I would think that = they would inform me if the information is unavailable.=20 Thanks, Bill Owen ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C08ACB.92A5AFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In June, 2000, I wrote to the National = Archives and=20 Records Administration in College Park, Maryland and requested the = Missing Air=20 Crew Report for my brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial = number of=20 their plane, the date of the crash, the location of the crash, all the = crew=20 names and the fate of each crewman. I also included my brother's serial = number.=20 Does any of you know how I can get these people to respond to me? So far = I have=20 heard nothing. I would appreciate any advice from anyone who has = dealt with=20 this agency. I would think that they would inform me if the information = is=20 unavailable.
Thanks, Bill = Owen
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C08ACB.92A5AFA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 21:19:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:19:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <000a01c08a6c$a5477a80$4e874d0c@netzero> <002701c08af3$8dfe1960$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <001901c08b02$5c69b1c0$1b914d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08AD8.71947E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt, thanks for your input. My point is that each squadron would have = a cadre of volunteers who could address specific enquiries pertinent to = that particular squadron. ( deligation of duties). The focal point = would be the Association and its website. I was thinking it might take = some pressure off for Gary and the other Association Officers if people = could direct specific questions to one or another element of the whole. = It goes without saying that before this could be implemented it would = require the blessings of the Association. If there is positive response = to the idea, then it may be valid to propose in Baltimore this year. = Meanwhile, it is just an idea. Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Petersen=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd = BG(H) Lloyd, It is without a doubt that such an effort would be helpful for = future generations. The 303rd Web site is an example of this. Obtaining = an exact account of experiences is a difficult task but a reasonable = perspective can be obtained. I know personally I would care to send a = number of photos and other information to the 303rd web site some day. Matt Petersen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd Talk=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd = BG(H) If a cadre of original members and family of the individual = squadrons were to concentrate their efforts to compile a history of each = of the four squadrons based upon first hand accounts, historical = archives, and memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort might contribute = to the whole understanding for future generations and help answer some = questiions that are specific to the service of all, and yet unique to = each unit. My specific interest is the 427th Sq. as a unit of the 303rd. Would an idea like this (ie support groups , for lack of a better = word ) have any validity to the common cause? I would appreciate all = input, pro, or , con. Thanks. L. Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08AD8.71947E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt, thanks for your input.  My = point is that=20 each squadron would have a cadre of volunteers who could address = specific=20 enquiries pertinent to that particular squadron.  ( deligation of=20 duties).  The focal point would be the Association and its = website.  I=20 was thinking it might take some pressure off for Gary and the other = Association=20 Officers if people could direct specific questions to one or another = element of=20 the whole.  It goes without saying  that before this could be=20 implemented it would require the blessings of the Association.  If = there is=20 positive response to the idea, then it may be valid to propose in = Baltimore this=20 year.  Meanwhile, it is just an idea.  Best, = Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Matt = Petersen=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 = 2:33=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A = suggestion=20 for the history of the 303rd BG(H)

Lloyd,
    It is without a doubt that such = an effort=20 would be helpful for future generations. The 303rd Web site is an = example of=20 this. Obtaining an exact account of experiences is a difficult task = but a=20 reasonable perspective can be obtained. I know personally I would care = to send=20 a number of photos and other information to the 303rd web site some=20 day.
 
Matt Petersen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd J H Grant
Sent: Monday, January 29, = 2001 10:27=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] A = suggestion for=20 the history of the 303rd BG(H)

If a cadre of original members and = family of=20 the individual squadrons were to concentrate their efforts to = compile a=20 history of each of the four squadrons based upon first hand = accounts,=20 historical archives, and memorabilia perhaps the fractional effort = might=20 contribute to the whole understanding for future generations and = help answer=20 some questiions that are specific to the service of all, and yet = unique to=20 each unit.
My specific interest is the 427th = Sq. as a unit=20 of the 303rd.
Would an idea like this (ie support = groups ,=20 for lack of a better word ) have any validity to the common = cause?  I=20 would appreciate all input, pro, or , con.  Thanks. L.=20 Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08AD8.71947E60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 21:19:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:19:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report References: <001501c08afd$de4cada0$373f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <003701c08b02$5f5b7a80$6e8af4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C08ABF.50CBE420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill. Phone this lady: Doris Jackson, at the Nat'l Archives, and she'll help you out. 301-713-7250 She has helped me in the past, and is a real nice person to deal with. Good luck. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com __________________________________________ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Owen=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:47 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report In June, 2000, I wrote to the National Archives and Records = Administration in College Park, Maryland and requested the Missing Air = Crew Report for my brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial = number of their plane, the date of the crash, the location of the crash, = all the crew names and the fate of each crewman. I also included my = brother's serial number. Does any of you know how I can get these people = to respond to me? So far I have heard nothing. I would appreciate any = advice from anyone who has dealt with this agency. I would think that = they would inform me if the information is unavailable.=20 Thanks, Bill Owen ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C08ABF.50CBE420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill.
Phone this lady:
Doris Jackson, at the Nat'l Archives, and she'll = help you=20 out.
301-713-7250
She has helped me in the past, and is a real nice = person to=20 deal with.
Good luck.
Gordy.
 
"Our freedom is not free. Please
remember those = who fought=20 to keep it."
Gordon L. Alton
134 Woodland Drive
Salt Spring = Island, BC,=20 Can V8K 1K1
ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com
 
__________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill = Owen=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 = 12:47=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing = Air Crew=20 Report

In June, 2000, I wrote to the = National Archives=20 and Records Administration in College Park, Maryland and requested the = Missing=20 Air Crew Report for my brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial = number=20 of their plane, the date of the crash, the location of the crash, all = the crew=20 names and the fate of each crewman. I also included my brother's = serial=20 number. Does any of you know how I can get these people to respond to = me? So=20 far I have heard nothing. I would appreciate any advice from = anyone who=20 has dealt with this agency. I would think that they would inform me if = the=20 information is unavailable.
Thanks, Bill=20 Owen
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C08ABF.50CBE420-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 22:58:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:58:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report Message-ID: Hi Bill: I have a friend who is a retired professor from the University of Illinois who has a daughter living near College Park. If you ask nicely, maybe he would copy them for you. He is a military historian and knows the system. His name is Lowell Getz, email: l-getz@life.uiuc.edu. Write and ask. He has been a big help to me. Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com >From: "Bill Owen" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:47:30 -0600 > >In June, 2000, I wrote to the National Archives and Records Administration >in College Park, Maryland and requested the Missing Air Crew Report for my >brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial number of their plane, the >date of the crash, the location of the crash, all the crew names and the >fate of each crewman. I also included my brother's serial number. Does any >of you know how I can get these people to respond to me? So far I have >heard nothing. I would appreciate any advice from anyone who has dealt with >this agency. I would think that they would inform me if the information is >unavailable. >Thanks, Bill Owen _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 23:41:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:41:02 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MACR Message-ID: <001d01c08b16$1d20bcc0$163f22d1@billowen> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C08AE3.D0B97C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the advice, Gordy. I'll sure give Doris Jackson a call. Best = Regards, Bill Owen ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C08AE3.D0B97C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the advice, Gordy. I'll sure = give Doris=20 Jackson a call. Best Regards, Bill Owen
 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C08AE3.D0B97C00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 30 23:53:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:53:16 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report References: Message-ID: <003401c08b17$d1b0afa0$163f22d1@billowen> Thanks for the input, Kevin. I appreciate the help. Regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > Hi Bill: I have a friend who is a retired professor from the University of > Illinois who has a daughter living near College Park. If you ask nicely, > maybe he would copy them for you. He is a military historian and knows the > system. His name is Lowell Getz, email: l-getz@life.uiuc.edu. Write and > ask. He has been a big help to me. > > Kevin M. Pearson > Vice President, Business Development > St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce > 3003 Frederick Ave. > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > Phone: 816.232.4461 > 800.748.7856 > Fax: 816.364.4873 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > > > >From: "Bill Owen" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:47:30 -0600 > > > >In June, 2000, I wrote to the National Archives and Records Administration > >in College Park, Maryland and requested the Missing Air Crew Report for my > >brother's crew. I gave them the name and serial number of their plane, the > >date of the crash, the location of the crash, all the crew names and the > >fate of each crewman. I also included my brother's serial number. Does any > >of you know how I can get these people to respond to me? So far I have > >heard nothing. I would appreciate any advice from anyone who has dealt with > >this agency. I would think that they would inform me if the information is > >unavailable. > >Thanks, Bill Owen > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 02:51:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:51:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs Message-ID: <34.103dd643.27a8d7c4@aol.com> LLoyd My address is P.O. Box 370 Barboursville, WV 25504. Would enjoy reading what yousend and will return it Lloyd, there was a message somewhere from some one looking for their father's grave. The folks at Molesworth have a record of this sort. At the time we are talking about, it was the American Cemetary Abbott From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 03:21:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:21:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs Message-ID: <98.fe74fe0.27a8ded3@aol.com> Message 2 That particular mission to Vegasak was one of the memorable ones in the earlier days of the Air War. It was one of my earlier missions and the flack and fighters were tough. Seems to me we were flying as high group in the formation. The lead group's CO was the soon to become very famous then Colonel Lamay. Anyway, we couldn't catch up to his lead group and hence they took a real beating from the fighters. Colonel Lamay came over to our group and raised hell about not being there to provide the high cover. I believe it was Colonel Marion that explained that had his group, believe, it was the 305th, just made some shallow turns we could have caught up. This is being written at home without the benefit of the 303rd diary @ the office. Will send now and check the facts tomorrow. Abbott Smith Bombardier and later lead crew Bombardier 427th From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 04:06:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:06:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs References: <34.103dd643.27a8d7c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c08b3b$34d85ce0$588af4cc@e0y0k4> Here is a link to the American Battle Monuments Monuments Commission. You can find all you need to know about gravesites, and the honor role of all those killed in any American war. Go to the link : http://www.abmc.gov/ and then click on "About War Dead" then "WWII" then "New listing of WWII database", highlighted in blue. Simply type in the last name, and the first initial if you have it. The name and info will come up. Explore other parts of the ABMC site as well. There is a lot of info there. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 6:51 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs > Lloyd, there was a message somewhere from some one looking for their > father's grave. The folks at Molesworth have a record of this sort. At the > time we are talking about, it was the American Cemetary > Abbott From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 04:57:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:57:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report Message-ID: Bill, In mid July I requested the MACR# 11199 for the Cureton crew. Most of this crew was KIA on the 21Nov44 mission to Merseburg. There was only a single survivor. After several emails a microfiche and a hard copy materialized in September. I dealt with Regina Davis who may be reached at regina.davis@arch2.nara.gov. I hope this is of some assistance. Much of the information in the MACR is administrative in nature. If any German (KU) reports are available they will also be included. John A. Jenkins From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 14:11:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:11:25 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs Message-ID: If you haven't visited the Madingley website, you may wish to do so at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/4065/madingley.html Kevin >From: AMS303@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #141 - 8 msgs >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:51:48 EST > >LLoyd > My address is P.O. Box 370 Barboursville, WV 25504. Would enjoy >reading >what yousend and will return it > > Lloyd, there was a message somewhere from some one looking for their >father's grave. The folks at Molesworth have a record of this sort. At >the >time we are talking about, it was the American Cemetary >Abbott > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 21:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:56:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report References: Message-ID: <002301c08bd0$ae376be0$283f22d1@billowen> Thank you, John. I just finished sending her an Email with all the pertinent info. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > Bill, > In mid July I requested the MACR# 11199 for the Cureton crew. Most of > this crew was KIA on the 21Nov44 mission to Merseburg. There was only a > single survivor. After several emails a microfiche and a hard copy > materialized in September. I dealt with Regina Davis who may be reached at > regina.davis@arch2.nara.gov. I hope this is of some assistance. Much of the > information in the MACR is administrative in nature. If any German (KU) > reports are available they will also be included. > > John A. Jenkins > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 19:55:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kiel Message-ID: <001f01c08bbf$d2b58620$c22664d8@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Lloyd Grant: My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme. I was bombardier on A. C. = Strickland's crew . On that mission we were flying in the #3 spot and = after leaving the target area we were under almost constant attack from = FW l90's and ME 109's. They made a pass at our Group and right through = our squadron. We were flying in StricNine and sustained some damage, = but no one was hit. On a second pass through our squadron Stockton was = hit and from what were told his reflex action caused loss of control. = As he was flying in #1 spot, all of the squadron followed. Barker and = the flight engineer regained control and he led the squadron back to = Molesworth. =20 As our quarters were in the same complex as Stockton's, we knew = them quite well and that evening we were in John's room hoisting a few = when he was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went out of control. = Luckily one of the participants in the room was our Flight Surgeon, a = Capt. Lame, and he sedated John and we were told the next day that he = had been sent to a rest facility I know he returned and finished out = his tour. I agree that he and the flight engineer both deserved = commendation for not only saving his crew, but leading the squadron back = home. I cannot recall your father, although I must have known him. Hope the above helps you out. Ed Lamme junned@humboldt1.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Lloyd Grant:
     My name is Edwin (Ed) = Lamme.  I=20 was bombardier on A. C. Strickland's crew .  On that mission we = were flying=20 in the #3 spot and after leaving the target area we were under almost = constant=20 attack from FW l90's and ME 109's.  They made a pass at our Group = and right=20 through our squadron.  We were flying in StricNine and sustained = some=20 damage, but no one was hit.  On a second pass through our squadron = Stockton=20 was hit and from what were told his reflex action caused loss of = control. =20 As he was flying in #1 spot, all of the squadron followed.  Barker = and the=20 flight engineer regained control and he led the squadron back to=20 Molesworth. 
 
     As our quarters were in the same complex = as=20 Stockton's, we knew them quite well and that evening we were in John's = room=20 hoisting a few when he was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went = out of=20 control.  Luckily one of the participants in the room was our = Flight=20 Surgeon, a Capt. Lame, and he sedated John and we were told the next day = that he=20 had been sent to a rest facility  I know he returned and finished = out his=20 tour.  I agree that he and the flight engineer both deserved = commendation=20 for not only saving his crew, but leading the squadron back home.  = I cannot=20 recall your father, although I must have known him.
 
     Hope the above helps you out.
 
Ed Lamme
  
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 31 22:08:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:08:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:27:56 -0500 Message-ID: <17052-3A788CCA-139@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Lloyd Grant Re: your sugggestion for compiling a History of the 303rd BG. We tried to undertake this project about 8 years ago when Ed Miller was president of the Association. It came up during a Board meeting. Each of the Squadron reps were to be reponsible for their squadron inputs to include organizationa chars, etc., Only one squadron, the 359th, completed its task. Al Morton went above and beyond the original plans. He published his repot in book form which he published on his own. That is the book that Brian McGuire mentioned in his message a few weeks ago. If you printed out Gary Moncur's 303rd Web site you would have the finest history ever written. That married to Harry Gobrecht's Might in Fliight is all anyone would ever need. Hal Susskind