From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 00:02:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:02:08 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <56.5446379.2781209f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A4F6690.21068.1D21727@localhost> > Somewhere in my collection I have a > photo of the crash of 050 Old Thunderbird with four guys standing iin front > of the wing....hope to locate it and push it up on the computer and possibly > have you identify the men shown. That would be great, Bob. I haven't seen that one. Good luck with our search. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 17:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:07:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D Message-ID: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Gentlemen, I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, NM and began B-17 training. My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some of them have gone on to fighter training? Still cold and foggy here-- :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 17:55:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:55:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D In-Reply-To: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Message-ID: <3A507E4D.10761.64B4067@localhost> > Gentlemen, > I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos > of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in > the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- > 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of > Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. > After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, > NM and began B-17 training. > > My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire > class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some > of them have gone on to fighter training? While the veterans are answering this interesting question, I thought I'd add a related question. My father went through aviation cadet training about a year before this, ie class of 42-D. He went through the training at the "Gulf Coast Air Force Training Center", which was located in Texas (actually several different locations in the Texas/OK area were apparently involved in different phases). Anyway, I don't know if it is true, but I have been told, that in 1941, when my father started the training there (ie before we officially entered the war), that supposedly the Texas facility was the only place where this training was done, but that after the war started, that several other facilities were started. I was told that in 41, that the Texas school was something similar to one of the military academies, but for pilots. Does anyone know if this is true? Ie did anyone go through the training in 1941, at a location other than in Texas? I know that several of the pilots who graduated with my father went on to other training facilities, and became instructors. My father was an instructor both at one of the fields associated with Maxwell AFB, and later went to Bainbridge Ga. He was an instructor for 2 years before finally getting checked out in B-17s at Hendricks Field at Sebring Florida, and joining the 303rd. Relative to your question though, Gary, I have this one picture (see several pictures associated with the cadet training at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/training.html ), which was taken on Dec 8 1941 (ie the day after Pearl Harbor I think), and the people who signed the picture made comments like "watch out for the Japs", etc, seemingly indicating that they assumed that they would end up as fighter pilots in the Pacific. So I think that the Cadet training was just general one and two engine flying, and the 4- engine transition, B-17 training was separate.... at least in 1941. So I think that the graduates went all sorts of different directions. I have also heard that later in the war, ie in the 1944 time frame, that there were too many pilots, and many of the graduates were given alternative training as other crew positions, like Bombadier or Navigator, etc., and didn't even become pilots. Hopefully, some of the guys who went through it all will comment, but I was interested in whether the training situation was different in 41-42 than it was in 43-44. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 1 19:43:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:43:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D Message-ID: gary ,my class later , at santa anna had sever5al different directions of grads. spec. of course that was a later more time. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 18:44:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:44:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D References: <3A5056CE.4852.D70E2E@localhost> Message-ID: <002601c074ec$0fa131a0$4ff833cf@richards> Gary: The class of 43d would have been spread over many air bases each graduating over 200 students . Living in Hemet I know that Hemet Ryan field was a primary training base your Dad would have gone on to Basic training in BT13s probably and then on to advanced either in Twin Engine or single engine Training. Then on to Hobbs for B17 training usually after being assigned to a crew. I graduated from advanced Training at Blytheville Ark. in class 44b . most of us went to Salt Lake City after a short leave, and then were assigned to a crew and we went to Ardmore Oklahoma for B17 crew training. When we finished at Ardmore we went to Kearney Nebraska and picked up a B17 which we flew over the Atlantic to England where we were supposed to land at St Andrews Scotland but it was fogged in and we went back and landed in Nuts Corner Ireland .The next day we Flew our B17 to a depot in southern England where we sadly gave it up.Hope this helped you. " Spider"Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D > Gentlemen, > I'm in the process of putting my dad "yearbook" online with photos > of all the aviation cadets in the class of 43-D. Of the nearly 200 in > the class, I am familiar with just a few names, all of which flew B- > 17s. The book is called "Contact" and put out at Ryan School of > Aeronautics at Hemet, California. The date is December 3, 1942. > After graduation (Apr 43), Dad and some others went on to Hobbs, > NM and began B-17 training. > > My question for you former aviation cadets is this: Would the entire > class of 43-D have gone to Hobbs for B-17 training, or would some > of them have gone on to fighter training? > > Still cold and foggy here-- :-) > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 19:24:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:24:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Class 43-D In-Reply-To: <002601c074ec$0fa131a0$4ff833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3A51C87E.9356.19E6CA@localhost> > The class of 43d would have been spread over many air bases each graduating > over 200 students . Living in Hemet I know that Hemet Ryan field was a > primary training base your Dad would have gone on to Basic training in BT13s > probably and then on to advanced either in Twin Engine or single engine > Training. Then on to Hobbs for B17 training usually after being assigned to > a crew. Spider, Thanks..... I know there are hundreds of men in 43-D from many bases. Dad went to pre-flight in Santa Ana. I know that those in pre-flight went all over the place, some to fighter training and some to bomber training. From there, he went to Hemet. I assume those who were at Hemet together all went on the rest of the way together and ended up in B-17s. I put their "yearbook" up here: http://www.b17thunderbird.com/43d/ I believe they all went from Hemet to Minter to Roswell to Hobbs. Does that make sense? Thanks for the help! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 19:28:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kimotek, Frank (OTS-EDH)) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:28:56 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Message-ID: <113C22F0C0AFD1119BCC00805F9FB64206D777E4@mxibs1.ibs.uscs.com> Hello, My name is Frank Kimotek, actually junior. My dad was in the 358th. An old high school friend found the web site while looking me up. I never knew my dad. My mother and him divorced when I was about 1 year old, and never got in touch with him. We have been in touch with his sister, Louise for the past 5 years off and on. I live in Orangevale, Ca with my wife Sally, and two children Chris 16 and Devon 14. I have been in the Information Technology industry for 25 years. I would be interested in any more photos or stories about him from any surviving crew members Thanks Frank Kimotek From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 20:35:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:35:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: "Gary Moncur" 's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:50:45 -0700 Message-ID: <12392-3A523BA4-25806@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> That is why my stay at Hill AFB lasted from Septmber of 1972 until April of 1973. I retired to get away from there. I was in snow from september until April. The day I drove out it was still snowing. At least you will get to enjoy the olympics. Hal From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 22:36:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:36:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #115 - 3 msgs Message-ID: I can only speak for my class, Gary, 43-H. We split from multi engine to single engine when we left Basic Flight Training. I went to two engine Advanced Flight Training then to B-17 training after graduation. I hope this is of somehelp to you.but I kind of doubt that it will answer your question. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Jan 2 22:43:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:43:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Garys Book& info Message-ID: --part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, Referencing your message of January 1st, 2001... I was a 43-D class from Blackland Army Flying School in Waco, Texas in April of 1943. We were delayed for about six months..congress passed a law making the 43-D class "Army United States" instead of reserve commission. I made cadet status in February of 43 and was called back from leave in August of 43 and sent to upper Kelly (Lackland Basic Training) class, then to Pinebluff Arkansas, Greenville Texas and then to Waco Texas. The 43-D class had over 10, 000 students. I had asked for B-17 combat training and was sent to Moses Lake Washington, then Edmond Oregon and then on to Grand Island Nebraska. I got on as copilot with Lt.L.E. Jokerst's crew and flew to England, arriving 27 June of 43. My first three missions were 15th, 16th and 17th of April. 17. April 17, being a Schweinfurt mission p.s. ..... we only had one day with ice on the trees last year(last month), after being born and raised in Michigan, I thankfully retired south of the snow line. Noone knows what snow looks like in San Antonio. My son has one of the few rare pictures of the Alamo with snow on it, taken back in 1985. cheers.. Bergie Lt.Col. Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron USAF (Ret.) --part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary,
Referencing your message of January 1st, 2001...
      I was a 43-D class from Blackland Army Flying School in Waco, Texas in
April of 1943. We were delayed for about six months..congress passed a law
making the 43-D class "Army United States" instead of reserve commission. I
made cadet status in February of 43 and was called back from leave in August
of 43 and sent to upper Kelly (Lackland Basic Training) class, then to
Pinebluff Arkansas, Greenville Texas and then to Waco Texas. The 43-D class
had over 10, 000 students.
      I had asked for B-17 combat training and was sent to Moses Lake
Washington, then Edmond Oregon and then on to Grand Island Nebraska. I got on
as copilot with Lt.L.E. Jokerst's crew and flew to England, arriving 27 June
of 43. My first three missions were 15th, 16th and 17th of April. 17.  April
17, being a Schweinfurt mission
p.s. ..... we only had one day with ice on the trees last year(last month),
after being born and raised in Michigan, I thankfully retired south of the
snow line. Noone knows what snow looks like in San Antonio. My son has one of
the few rare pictures of the Alamo with snow on it, taken back in 1985.
cheers.. Bergie
Lt.Col. Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron
USAF (Ret.)

--part1_a6.e1d6a2c.2783b3ab_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:07:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:07:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Announcement Message-ID: <75.e5de3f5.2783e37c@aol.com> --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the 303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information and pictures. Please check it out. The address is < http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Take care......................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the
303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new
web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information
and pictures. Please check it out. The address is <
http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl>   Take care......................Ford J.
Lauer III --part1_75.e5de3f5.2783e37c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:44:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:44:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Announcement In-Reply-To: <75.e5de3f5.2783e37c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A522F8C.13046.1AC8515@localhost> Ford, Glad you put that online. I'll link to you from the 303rd page. Looks like you have some bad links for the Bio, photos, ect. It looks like you have them set up for your own system, but not relative to your ISP. Take a look at it online and you'll see. I may steal that photo of your grandfather for our web page, if you don't mind, > My name is Ford J. Lauer III. I am the grandson of Colonel Ford J. Lauer, the > 303rd's first commander. I just want to let you know that I have posted a new > web site that pays tribute to Colonel Lauer. It contains lots of information > and pictures. Please check it out. The address is < > http://www.emulationdesign.com/fjl> Take care......................Ford J. > Lauer III > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 02:52:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:52:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. He was born in Empress, Alberta, Canada in 1917, to American immigrants. His father, Clarence Evan Alton, died from the Spanish Flu in 1919. He finished high school, and then rode in rodeos, worked with horses, while residing in California, and Alberta, throughout the Thirties. He volunteered first for the Canadian Army, in 1941, and subsequently volunteered and transferred to the American forces, where he was given his choice of service, and picked the USAAF. After training, he shipped overseas to the ETO in July of 1943, and was assigned to the 91st Bomb Group, 323rd Bomb Squadron. He flew missions throughout the month of Sept. '43, from Station 121, Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. He was shot down on a mission to Frankfurt, Germany, on Oct. 4, '43, and interned in Stalag XVIIB, Krems, Austria, until his release from a temporary camp near Braunau, Austria, after a forced march ahead of the Russians, on May 3rd, 1945. He was returned to the USA in June of '45, and volunteered to go overseas to the PTO. After a months leave, he was getting ready to ship out in Sept. '45, from San Francisco. The Japanese surrender brought about a change in his situation, and he asked for, and was given, his release from the American forces. He was given an honorable discharge in Oct. '45, and returned to Canada, where his mother (Florence Edna Alton, 1895-1983) still resided. He bought a horse on his return to Canada, and raises Pintos, and then Appaloosas, until 1998. He established a construction company, Alton Homes, in Red Deer, Alberta, in late 1945, which he ran until his retirement in 1980. He will be sadly missed by his family. Thank you to all of you who have helped in the search for his wartime activities over the last few years, with photos, maps, records, and eye-witness reports. He sure appreciated the help, in the twilight of his life, and loved you all for it. God bless you Dad, on this, your final flight, You have touched us all that knew you, With your smiles, your chuckles, and your good humor through it all. Your love and your guidance were, and will be, my succor. You led the exciting life that I will always envy, but mostly admire. When I hear the sound of an airplane engine flying high in the sky, Or the whinny of a horse, and the laugh of a little boy with his father, I will think of you, Dad, and smile, and remember those times we shared. You were, and always will be, my hero. I will miss you so very, very, much. Gordon Alton, Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 04:08:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:08:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight In-Reply-To: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A524336.9291.1F955A7@localhost> > > It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle > Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. Gordy, On behalf of the 303rd Bomb Group Association, please accept our deepest sympathies. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 04:44:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:44:50 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight References: <3A524336.9291.1F955A7@localhost> Message-ID: <011701c0753f$e8544480$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Thank you, Gary, and all who are writing tonight. It sure is appreciated. I will pass all of these kind notes on to my family. Gordy. ****************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "Gordon Alton" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight > > > > It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle > > Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. > > Gordy, > On behalf of the 303rd Bomb Group Association, please accept > our deepest sympathies. > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 06:07:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:07:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: Gordy: We are all sad with you. It grieves us all when one of us passes on and we become one fewer, Our deepest sympathy to you and your family. You can be very proud of him. He served us all extremely well. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 13:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:07:10 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight In-Reply-To: <001701c07530$4711c200$6c8af4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: Gordy - I am but one of millions of Americans that owe their freedom to Donald Alton and the other airmen of the 8th that paid the price for that freedom. We all take a moment to mourn the passing of your father, and one last time say thank you. Brian McGuire RAF Molesworth -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:25 AM To: Whit Warhill; Walter Kast; Vince Hemmings AL; Verne E. Woods FM 324; Trixtex@aol.com; Tom Hovis AM; Steve Perri; Steve Pena; Sam Harris 401; Sam Halpert FM 324; Roy Fratz FM 401; Roger Armstrong 401; Robert H. Friedman LM 323; Robert Dickson 322; Robert Dandoy 401; Robert Cleveland FM 324; Robert Bercu 324; Ray R. Ward 322; Ray Darling FM 324; Ray Bowden PR; Phil Lunt 401; Paul Chryst; Paul Adams AL; Norman D. Stuckey LM 324; Nelson Hillock FM 322; Mike Banta; Mick Hanou AL; Marion Hoffman; Mal & Pauline Tuohy 322; Lowell Getz AM; Lon Gaston LM 401; Leonard Contreras AM; Leland Forsblad FM 323rd; John W. Howland LM 324; John O'Leary 401; Joe Vukovich 322; Joe Harlick LM 324; Joe Frankie LM 323; Jim Shepherd AM; Jim Sanders FM 401; Jim Hoffman FM 323; Jeff Martin AM; Jack Paget LM 401; Hubert Donohue FM 323; Harry "Doug" Tanner AM; Harold W. Lasch 322; Gordy Alton AM; Gerry and Meg Asher AM; George W. Shook LM 322; George Parrish 401st; George Jacobs LM 324; G. Paul Lynch 324; Fred Cravello 401; Frank Farr 322 323; Ferd A. Koch FM 323; Evan Zillmer 324; Eugene Earl "Lucky" Brown 324; Earl Pate FM 324; Donald Bird 401; Don Freer; David Lomasney AL; Darrell Gillett 1stCBW; DALEWWII@aol.com; Dale Jensen AM; Conrad Lohoefer 401; Cliff and Barb Schultz; Chuck Brewick 323rd; Chris Johnson; Charlie Hudson; Charlie Busa; Charles Harper AM; Charles F Sturgeon FM 322; Charles E. Walker; Carol Thomas; Bill Duffy LM 323; BevnBus@aol.com; Bert Humphries; Bernie E. Stanton FM 401; B17TAIL@aol.com; Asay B. Johnson LM 324; Armond Lehman FM 322; Armand and Peggy Battista 322; Andrew Caswell 324; Andrew "Andy" Anderson LM 322nd.; A. J. Sinibaldo; Paul Limm 401 Cc: HEAVY EXTRA; Heavy Bombers; Howard Dell; 303rd Bomb Group Talk List; Jake Howland; A. J. Sinibaldo; Ace Johnson; Allan K. Chapman; Allison Pena; Andy Hartles; Battleax3@aol.com; Bernie E. Stanton; 'Bud' Cloren Meade; Carol Thomas; Charles E. Walker; Chris Johnson; Cliff and Barb Schultz; Dale Darling; David Lomasney; Don Sheeler; Donald Wellings; Donna Craig; Edward Emerton; Eric Dominicus; Ferd Koch; George Jacobs; Gerry and Meg Asher; Gordy Alton; ILSLEYFIN@aol.com; Jack Bowen; Jim Hoffman; Jim Lahood; Jim Shepherd; Joe Harlick; Kevin Pearson; Lkpzee@aol.com; Loraine Darling; Lowell Getz; Malcolm Hale; Marion Hoffman; Marv; Maxine Provan; Nigel Viney; Paul Chryst; Peter Williams; Phil Starcer; Richard Galley; Sam Halpert; Samuel Harris; Seymour B. Gold; Stan Wray Jr.; Steve Pena; Stevemjs@aol.com; Verne Woods; wehmig@email.msn.com; Combatvets.net list; Charles D. Petrie; markus@ecofuel.com; Par in Sweden; Pierre in Belgium; Vinnie O'Mahoney; Tony Wood; Tomislav Haramincic; Simon Parry; Ruy Horta; Richard T. Eger; Rabe Anton; Philippe Willaume; Peter Evans; Pawel Burchard; Mitchell Williamson; Mike Wenger; Mikael Olrog; Kim Chetwyn; Kari Lumppio; John Beaman; Jim Spaw; Jim Perry; Jim Bowden; Jes Touvdal; Jason Long; Jan Bobek; Jamie Iverson; James D. Hatch; Jaap Woortman; Guy Finch; Greg Kopchuk; Gary Webster; Frank Olynyk; Dr. David Ransome; Denes Bernad; David D. Brown; Dan O'Connell; Carl-Fredrik Geust; Brett Green; Bob Rinder; Bertrand Hugot; Artie Bob; Arthur L. Bentley; Andreas Brekken; Alexander W. Hohl; Vincent Kermorgant; Cheryl E. Davis; Claudio Becker; Ed McKenzie; Rita Jackson; Colin and Lynda Sims; Colin & Wendy; Rick & Lynell; Kim Young; Don Cooper; Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel; Gardner's; Glenn and Judy Willett; Harold 'Bud' Schmidt; Harry Crosby; Jaap Woortman; Jan-Olov; Mario Isack; Markus Reisner; Marnée Beauvais; Mike Yamada; Niel Rissler; Paul Kusch; Penny Durant; Rene Lachartre; Rex Rees; Robert Converse; Roland Geiger; Ron Harlow; Ron Hexum; Roy Butler; Ben; Uwe Wiedemann; Zvi Avidror Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight It is my very sad duty to tell you all that my father, Donald Merle Alton, S/Sgt., 323rd BS, 91BG, passed away this morning, at the age of 83. He was born in Empress, Alberta, Canada in 1917, to American immigrants. His father, Clarence Evan Alton, died from the Spanish Flu in 1919. He finished high school, and then rode in rodeos, worked with horses, while residing in California, and Alberta, throughout the Thirties. He volunteered first for the Canadian Army, in 1941, and subsequently volunteered and transferred to the American forces, where he was given his choice of service, and picked the USAAF. After training, he shipped overseas to the ETO in July of 1943, and was assigned to the 91st Bomb Group, 323rd Bomb Squadron. He flew missions throughout the month of Sept. '43, from Station 121, Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. He was shot down on a mission to Frankfurt, Germany, on Oct. 4, '43, and interned in Stalag XVIIB, Krems, Austria, until his release from a temporary camp near Braunau, Austria, after a forced march ahead of the Russians, on May 3rd, 1945. He was returned to the USA in June of '45, and volunteered to go overseas to the PTO. After a months leave, he was getting ready to ship out in Sept. '45, from San Francisco. The Japanese surrender brought about a change in his situation, and he asked for, and was given, his release from the American forces. He was given an honorable discharge in Oct. '45, and returned to Canada, where his mother (Florence Edna Alton, 1895-1983) still resided. He bought a horse on his return to Canada, and raises Pintos, and then Appaloosas, until 1998. He established a construction company, Alton Homes, in Red Deer, Alberta, in late 1945, which he ran until his retirement in 1980. He will be sadly missed by his family. Thank you to all of you who have helped in the search for his wartime activities over the last few years, with photos, maps, records, and eye-witness reports. He sure appreciated the help, in the twilight of his life, and loved you all for it. God bless you Dad, on this, your final flight, You have touched us all that knew you, With your smiles, your chuckles, and your good humor through it all. Your love and your guidance were, and will be, my succor. You led the exciting life that I will always envy, but mostly admire. When I hear the sound of an airplane engine flying high in the sky, Or the whinny of a horse, and the laugh of a little boy with his father, I will think of you, Dad, and smile, and remember those times we shared. You were, and always will be, my hero. I will miss you so very, very, much. Gordon Alton, Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 15:06:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:06:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 91Ring, Final Flight Message-ID: <6c.684d431.27849a12@aol.com> Our sincere sympathies are with you in the passing of your Dad. Warm regards, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:00:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:00:31 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ford Lauer Announcement Message-ID: --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have the web site working now. Try it again. Please be patient, this web page creating is new to me. By all means, please use anything from the site you want to. Those pictures are history. I don't consider any of them to be my property. They belong to every American. Thanks...................Ford Lauer --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have the web site working now. Try it again. Please be patient,
this web page creating is new to me. By all means, please use anything from
the site you want to. Those pictures are history. I don't consider any of
them to be my property. They belong to every American.
Thanks...................Ford Lauer --part1_c7.541c085.2784c2bf_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:12:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:12:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which Message-ID: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:28:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:28:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <3A530CE0.9387.2AC857@localhost> > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > Matt, Looks like that is the 390th BG. There is a great web page that will tell you everything like that here: http://www.heavybombers.com/tails.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 18:32:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:32:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #116 - 14 msgs Message-ID: Gordy, It was said many years before McArthur said it,"Old soldiers never die, they just fade away." Although we expect to lose our loved ones, we are never ready for it to happen. Please accept my condolences and heartfelt sympathy. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:45:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:45:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt: That would be the 452nd Bombardment Group (Heavy, 3rd Air Division, based at Deopham Green. Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:47:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Gary, the 390th Bombardment Group (Heavy) always carried the tail marking of Square J while in the ETO. Square L was the 452nd BG(H) at Deopham Green. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:46 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > Matt, Looks like that is the 390th BG. There is a great web page that will tell you everything like that here: http://www.heavybombers.com/tails.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 19:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:41:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A531DFF.1066.6DA9D2@localhost> > Hey Gary, the 390th Bombardment Group (Heavy) always carried the tail > marking of Square J while in the ETO. Square L was the 452nd BG(H) at > Deopham Green. Whoops! Guess I better take another look at the alphabet. :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 20:16:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:16:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Frank Kimotek Message-ID: --part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, My name is Vicki Sykes. My Great-Uncle David Miller, was the tailgunner on your father's crew. I have quite a bit of information about the crew and also some pictures. If you go to the 303rd web page and look up Monahan's crew you will see some crew pictures there. Also a photo of the memorial my husband and I had made to honor the crew. It is at the 8th Air force museum in Savannah. I will email you with some of the info I have. Vicki Sykes --part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank,

My name is Vicki Sykes. My Great-Uncle David Miller, was the tailgunner on
your father's crew. I have quite a bit of information about the crew and also
some pictures. If you go to the 303rd web page and look up Monahan's crew you
will see some crew pictures there. Also a photo of the memorial my husband
and I had made to honor the crew. It is at the 8th Air force museum in
Savannah. I will email you with some of the info I have.   

Vicki Sykes

--part1_fd.7dc728.2784e285_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 20:19:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:19:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks Gary! Message-ID: <47.5a538a5.2784e337@aol.com> --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to post a public "Thanks again" to Gary Moncur for helping 303rd members and family members connect. This is the third time in the past 3 or 4 months the web page has helped me connect with family members of my Uncle's crew. Keep up the good work. Vicki Sykes --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to post a public "Thanks again"  to Gary Moncur for helping 303rd
members and family members connect. This is the third time in the past 3 or 4
months the web page has helped me connect with  family members of my Uncle's
crew. Keep up the good work. Vicki Sykes --part1_47.5a538a5.2784e337_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 22:36:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:36:10 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Message-ID: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their = screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to about = July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The primary = job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators and = multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most = of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large red = brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't know the connection BUT = Victorville had=20 BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable pitch props] when I was = there from=20 April to about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. = The=20 primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight = vault], Navigators and=20 multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of=20 the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large red=20 brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C075A3.47499EA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 23:24:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:24:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 References: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000c01c075dc$5d9d03c0$54f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maurice: I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in class 44B . We lost 20 class members = to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a brick. In our graduating = class of 320 pilots 20 went to Catalina training for Air Sea Rescue, = 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s all as = copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat losses = went . Happy New Year=20 Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember = their screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to = about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The = primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators = and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large = red brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maurice:
 I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in = class 44B .=20 We lost 20 class members to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a = brick.=20 In our graduating class of 320 pilots  20 went to Catalina training = for Air=20 Sea Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s = all as=20 copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat losses = went=20 .
 Happy New Year
      Spider=20 Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 2:36=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S = MESSAGE NO=20 !----1-3-2001

Don't know the connection BUT=20 Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable = pitch=20 props] when I was there from April to about July or August of '42 [to = lazy to=20 look up my intinerary]. The primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the = bomb=20 sight vault], Navigators and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - = Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most of the accidents were with the = AT-9s=20 ---Glide angle of a large red brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I = leave
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07599.4E2B98E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Jan 3 23:07:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:07:52 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which References: <000701c075b0$cbd37260$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Message-ID: <008f01c075da$0263f740$720110ac@Betac.com> 452nd Bomb Group, 3rd Bomb Division/Air Division, Deopham Green Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Petersen To: 303rd <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which > group had the marking of an square with an "L" in it? I saw a photo at a > Wal-Mart with a B-17 with that type of marking. > > Matt Petersen > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 00:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:12:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5b.100473ed.278519e0@aol.com> --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our sympathies to you and you family. We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers. Keane family --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our sympathies to you and you family.  
  We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers.
                                                      Keane family --part1_5b.100473ed.278519e0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 01:15:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:15:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <5b.100473ed.278519e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c075eb$c74005c0$6e8af4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Our sympathies to you and you family. =20 We will remember your dad and your family in our prayers.=20 Keane family=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the kind words. They are = appreciated.
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 4:12=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no = subject)

Our = sympathies to you=20 and you family.  
  We will remember your dad and = your=20 family in our prayers.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =       Keane=20 family ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C075A8.B8BFB1A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 02:14:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:14:43 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ford Lauer Announcement Message-ID: send your web site info again as i want to viewibsp[ec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 07:10:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:10:42 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <3A5421E4.68E4@oro.net> A question to Bombardiers - I am curious when and why toggliers were employed and if they ever used the bombsight or dropped on visual to the lead aircraft? My best regards to all you 303rd members. Richard Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 07:55:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 02:55:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 14:00:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:00:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010104.080028.-353895.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Rich, I was a bombardier with the 303rd Bomb Group (Hell's Angels) and flew fourteen missions late in the war-l945. The last three as a deputy lead. In the 360th squadron we always had a lead and two deputies. The first deputy was assigned to the high element and the second deputy to the low. On all of my missions we did salvo on the lead ship drop. In the B-17G we could space the bombs on the ground up to 750 feet. Our maximum load inside the Bombay was 12 - 500lb bombs, 16 - 250lb bombs and 24 - 100lb bombs or it could be a mixture of these. The three lead ships carried bomb sights. Formation bombing was more effective and did not require a bombardier in each plane. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 15:35:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:35:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Can someone tell which Message-ID: Gary, do your extensive records show a 303 Bombardier (Sq.???) named Anson Cherry, 2/Lt. as having been at Molesworth. Supposedly before I was able to search him out, he went down. He was a Carlsbad AAF grad, class 44-8, wings 6/10/44. Any help much appreciated. Thanks and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Jan 4 17:17:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:17:18 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - Interesting. Was it the Group (wing, squadron) lead/dep lead that carried the sights? Wasn't there any concern that if both aircraft were lost the formation had no one to drop on? Brian McGuire Molesworth -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:10 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 00:14:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:14:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in the high element. I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with them to share their firepower. When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where they were going to hit or what. Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 06:35:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:35:13 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Thanks to you Jack Rencher and Bill Runnels for your explanations to my queries on the role of toggliers and too the process of bomb spacing. I must guess this position came into being sometime in '44 as your book "Might in Flight" begins to use the term toggliers during this time period. So too, might I suppose this practice led you to have some reserve of bombardiers? ;-) Incidentally, my father-in-law John Hand did some instructing at Big Spring, Texas AAFBS in '43 & '44. Might anyone from 303rd have attended this school? Best regards and many thanks, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Richard Young A249 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 10:34:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:34:56 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - Thank you! I have learned an awful lot from the 303rd Talk, stuff I hadn't run across in books. Serendipitously this Gary Moncur intiative is capturing a lot of information that will be of value to future historians. Best wishes. Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:27 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in the high element. I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with them to share their firepower. When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where they were going to hit or what. Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 12:51:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:51:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 References: <002f01c075d5$9271f6c0$83bb9ace@mjpmtman> <000c01c075dc$5d9d03c0$54f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <006f01c07716$33adfc00$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My father trained multi-engine on B-24's and then ended up flying = B-17's in the 303rd. He told me that a B-24 required all four engines to = fly but a B-17 could make it on one, he told me if, it had to. ;-)=20 Matt Petersen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick Smith=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Maurice: I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark in class 44B . We lost 20 class = members to that airplane ,you're right it glided like a brick. In our = graduating class of 320 pilots 20 went to Catalina training for Air Sea = Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) 150 went to B17s all = as copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as far as combat = losses went . Happy New Year=20 Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:36 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] SPIDER'S MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001 Don't know the connection BUT Victorville had BT-13's { I remember = their screaming variable pitch props] when I was there from April to = about July or August of '42 [to lazy to look up my intinerary]. The = primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded the bomb sight vault], Navigators = and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis AT9s - Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 = --most of the accidents were with the AT-9s ---Glide angle of a large = red brick. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My father trained multi-engine on = B-24's=20 and then ended up flying B-17's in the 303rd. He told me that a B-24 = required=20 all four engines to fly but a B-17 could make it on one, he told me if, = it had=20 to. ;-)
 
Matt Petersen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dick = Smith
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 6:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = SPIDER'S=20 MESSAGE NO !----1-3-2001

Maurice:
 I flew AT9s at Blytheville Ark = in class 44B=20 . We lost 20 class members to that airplane ,you're right it glided = like a=20 brick. In our graduating class of 320 pilots  20 went to Catalina = training for Air Sea Rescue, 150 went to B24S(The box the B17 came in) = 150=20 went to B17s all as copilots We who went to B17 were the lucky ones as = far as=20 combat losses went .
 Happy New Year
      Spider = Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice Paulk=20
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 2:36=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = SPIDER'S MESSAGE=20 NO !----1-3-2001

Don't know the connection BUT=20 Victorville had BT-13's { I remember their screaming variable = pitch=20 props] when I was there from April to about July or August of '42 = [to lazy=20 to look up my intinerary]. The primary job was Bombadiers [I guarded = the=20 bomb sight vault], Navigators and multi engine pilots.-- Curtis = AT9s -=20 Beechcraft [??] AT-11 & AT-7 --most of the accidents were with = the AT-9s=20 ---Glide angle of a large red brick.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some = when I=20 arrive -
MOST when I=20 leave
------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C076EC.49DC2EE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 13:05:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:05:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier References: Message-ID: <008b01c07718$33a2c680$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> That's interesting about toggliers. I had always thought that only one or two of the planes carried the Nordon bombsight and that the rest where equipped with a simple sight, a telescope with a protractor attached. This way in the event that both ships equipped with the Nordon bombsight where to be lost, the designated target could still be bombed, just not with a great deal of accuracy. Matt Petersen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 5:34 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] togglier > Jack - > Thank you! I have learned an awful lot from the 303rd Talk, stuff I hadn't > run across in books. Serendipitously this Gary Moncur intiative is capturing > a lot of information that will be of value to future historians. > > Best wishes. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:27 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > > > Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. > It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or > possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The > deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of > four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in > the high element. > > I did wonder about a bomb sight if the lead and deputy both got shot > down before we dropped the bombs. I think the best thing to do would be if > possible get in the formation of another squadron who had not dropped yet > (preferably one from your own group) and drop with them. And go home with > them to share their firepower. > > When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a > city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. > You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but > there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. > You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with > no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have > bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The > official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". You > must remember the Germans bombed London with V1s & V2s and had no idea where > they were going to hit or what. > > Happy New Year Brian. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 13:52:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:52:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A558B68.1330.51B99A@localhost> > Greetings Brian. It's good to hear from you again. > It was the Squadron..Each Group usually put up four squadrons of 12 or > possibly 13 planes each. The lead and deputy had the bomb sights. The > deputy would fly on the leads wing. Each squadron formation was composed of > four 3 plane elements. If there was a 13th plane he would fly in the box in > the high element. Sorry to add to the above nice first hand description, but I wanted to comment on a couple things that had confused me, but I've figured out from the reading I have done. I think that the above description applies to later in the war, and although there were 4 squadrons in the 303rd, they usually only flew three of them any one day... although from the records I've seen, it looks like it was quite common for one of the three flying squadrons to be composed of planes from the squadron that wasn't flying that day. Apparently earlier in the war, the flying box was composed of planes from the 3 squadrons flying that day, typically 7 planes from each squadron. This was a bit confusing to me at first, and I'm still not positive that I have it right, but I think I'm close. The microfilm records that I have been reading show for the early months of the war (ie late 42-mid 43) an old journal style notebook, in which the notes for each mission were entered by hand. This notebook describes squadrons made up sometimes of only 8 crews, and on a typical mission 3 of the 4 squadrons would put up 6 or 7 planes to form one of the flights of the box, one or 2 crews being given a rest. Later in the war, the boxes went from 21 to 13, and were typically composed of planes from a single squadron, and the squadrons had enough crews so that they didn't have to every time the squadron flew, typically only every other or every third mission. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that early in the war, the independent unit that flew in formation was the group, composed of 3 flights, while later in the war, the independent unit that flew in formation was the squadron. > When we bombed with radar we had a 6 inch or so scope. When you put a > city the size of Berlin on a 6 inch scope, you did not do precision bombing. > You could maybe drop in the section of the city North East South or West but In the squadron my father flew in, they had the PFF radar on the lead plane, and GH radio direction finding (similar to Loran) on the deputy plane. From what I've heard, the GH could be quite accurate if they had stations to triangulate off that weren't too far away. I have some bomb run plots from PFF runs, that show that the PFF had the capability of working pretty well when there were rivers and coastlines near the target, since they showed up better. However when the targets were assigned, they usually assigned a secondary and tertiary target, which were often the same location but using either PFF or GH. Ie the primary target might be as certain plant in a town using the optical bomb sight, while the secondary target might be an airport in the same town using GH, or a shipyard using PFF, or something like that. On at least one occasion, my father's squadron did not have working GH equipment, which was requirred for the secondary target, so he brought his squadron in behind the lead squadron, and bombed off them. On another mission, I read about, the lead squadron had an equipment failure, and was given directions on when to turn and bomb, etc from one of the trailing squadrons (I haven't a clue at how that could be done... Ie the low squadron took over the lead, and helped the lead squadron get to the target from behind...) > there was a school, hospital, church and airplane factory in that section. > You had an equal chance to hit any one of the four. SO If I ware caught with > no bomb sight & could not get in with someone who did have I would have > bombed a target of opportunity without a bomb sight and headed home. The > official terminology was " Bombs away lets get the Hell out of here". Again, I think things changed with this respect at different times during the war. I saw some official directives from late in the war, that told crews to be absolutely positive about your target, or bring the bombs back, with threats of being courts martialed for failure to comply. I think later in the war, when the ground troops were advancing, they didn't want crews dropping bombs on our own troops. Whereas earlier in the war crews could be pretty sure that targets of opportunity were enemy. Again, sorry for adding second hand info to the above, but I thought it might be helpful. Hopefully, the people who served at different times during the war, can comment on how things were different early and late in the war. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 14:25:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:25:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack: This is an excellent reply to the original question and one which I have posed to several bombardiers over the years. I have been told that when the intervolometer was used to space out the bomb pattern, this was called "dropping in train," as opposed to the salvo method desribed in Jacks reply. In watching film footage from the war, is is very apparent that both methods were employed. What comes to mind is the film Memphis Belle when they are dropping over the target at Wilhelmshaven. You can visually see the 2,000 pounders dropping in train. Another question for you Jack. Marker flares were also used, were they not, by the lead ships over the target? As following squadrons and groups crossed the path of the marker flares, they too would then drop. Did you ever employ this methods of bombing? By the way, the Germans had a Norden bombsight in August of 1942 and didn't figure it out until the Spring of 1943. The gryro stabalizers threw them for a loop. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:12 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier Richard, During1944 when I served in the 303rd the only planes that carried a Bomb Sight on most missions would be the lead and deputy lead aircraft. We flew tight formation on the bomb run and every plane dropped on the lead aircraft. When the lead dropped his bombs each Bombardier or togglier In the formation "flipped his switch" instantly. This assured good bomb patterns on the ground and reduced the possibly of the Germans getting our Sperry or Nordon bomb sights. The Toggleriers did not know how to use a Bomb Sight and had no need for one. They did know how to arm the Bombs after take off and the other Bombardier duties.and were gunners on the nose guns and chin turrets on the G models. Be aware, we did not normally drop all the bombs at once like in "salvo." We used a timing device called an intervolometor that spaced the bombs so many feet apart on the ground. Every time it clicked it dropped the bottom bomb on the bomb rack. If we had say 18 bombs it would have to click 18 times before the last bomb was gone. It could be adjusted to have one hit say every 5 feet or every 100 feet or what ever distance apart the Bombardier or Toggleier set in it. The salvo switch was an emergency device that dropped all the bombs at once. The Bombardier had one as did the pilots in the cockpit. Usually the smaller the bombs we carried the more we carried and the closer together we had them hit on the ground. If we had 2000 pound bombs we would have just 4 of them and might want one to drop every 100 feet on the ground, If we had 500 pound bombs we might have as many as 20 of them and want one to hit every . 25 feet on the ground. I hope this answers your questions and I haven't spelled to many words wrong. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 14:40:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:40:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares Message-ID: <20010105.084015.-272425.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Kevin, The first two bombs out of the lead ship were markers. Just like the vapor trails to the target area, the markers helped following groups to locate the target. The markers were not to accurate as they would drift with the wind but they were of assistance in that they enabled you to fine tune your target search. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:13:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:13:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <3e.5ad04a1.27873e84@aol.com> Didn't know your father-in-law John Hand, but I graduated class 44-8, Carlsbad AAFB on June 10,'44. Cheers, Bob Hand, 303/360, Fink's Crew, 35 m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:27:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:27:08 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew how. After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there and you usually made just one landing per each approach, Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when I am wearing my padded jacket. Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:30:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:30:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <35.efd090f.27874287@aol.com> Tall Story No. 1128-B: Bombardier toggled load on PFF leader, bottom two 500 pounders hung up the rest of the load. Bombardier arranged with waist gunner to release load with screwdriver into shackle upon his signal. Bombardier then triangulated drop angle using knee over toe method, intercommed gunner to release load when he zeroed in on marshalling yard below. Gunner complied, triggering hung-up bomb which set whole bomb load screaming out of the bomb bay. Bombs hit RR depot below scoring creditable damage. Pilot wrote up scene, bombardier got another cluster on his Air Medal, waist gunner got DFC for "beyond line of duty" action....leaving one highly pissed-off bombardier. C'est la guerre. Cheers, Bob Hand (303/360, Fink's Crew, Bombardier, 35 m.) Incident reported to me first person by fellow graduate. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 15:59:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:59:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a question I have long wondered about, but have feared offending you. Flak over some of the cities in Occupied Europe I have been told was murderous. Are any of you aware of any crews who ever jettisoned their bombs so they would not have to fly through all the flak? I have also heard that some groups would fly over a target not once, but sometimes two or three times if the target was obscured. Did crews ever jettison to avoid going back over the target? And what were the penalties if a crew or Bombardier got caught doing this - court marshall? Not everyone who flew with the 8th was a brave sort. I have encountered many, many crew members who have said that, "we had this one guy who just couldn't take it and they moved him out." I've always wondered where they moved these men to? Were they reassigned within the group, moved to a headquarters unit, or were they humiliated and thrown out of the Air Corps? Kevin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 16:42:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:42:34 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack - And the other is.........? Brian -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 3:40 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew how. After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there and you usually made just one landing per each approach, Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when I am wearing my padded jacket. Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in the 8th Air Force. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 19:35:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <20010105193517.29579.qmail@web9307.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, According to my father (Al Hollritt 303rd/427th) when they operated PFF B-17G's out of Chelveston with the 305th BG leading the 41st CBW, the aircraft they had Flare pistols mounted in the radio room that they would fire when "Bombs away" was announced. He remembers on one raid one discharged into the aircraft filling the B-17G with thick smoke nose to tail, He said the pilot had all he could do to keep the fortress in formation, Being a lead aircraft kept them away from the other B-17's who looked on in amusement at the bomber with what must have looked like it had a wood burning stove inside! > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Marker Flares > From: Bill L Runnels > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin, > The first two bombs out of the lead ship were > markers. Just like the > vapor trails to the target area, the markers helped > following groups to > locate the target. The markers were not to accurate > as they would drift > with the wind but they were of assistance in that > they enabled you to > fine tune your target search. > Bill Runnels > > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two > best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 19:38:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot Message-ID: <20010105193857.79708.qmail@web9303.mail.yahoo.com> > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two > best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. Your Co-Pilot was the second best because he had to fit in the cockpit with that huge head in the way! Hee Hee :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 20:18:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:18:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010105.141842.-345457.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Rich, Your guess on when they started using toggliers is probably a good one. The policy was in effect when I got there in January 1945. However I doubt that there ever was a very large reserve of bombardiers. I graduated in class 44-13 and I don't think there was more that one or two classes at Midland Advanced Bombardier School after that. FYI the training period for a bombardier was 13 months. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 22:18:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:18:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Pilot Message-ID: <5d.57111fc.2787a226@aol.com> Hay HEE HEE, I was the copilot. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Jan 5 23:27:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:27:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <6e.69a6b9e.2787b259@aol.com> richard young. some of us as toggliers attended and were schooled in use of norden bomb sight ,just so we could activate bomb relaeases in event lead craft was unable. my training was at lowery air field two in denver,col. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 00:53:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:53:16 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <3b.eb65d0d.2787c67c@aol.com> Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 01:41:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:41:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty 8th! new computer game! Message-ID: <003d01c07781$bdceb120$afd14e0c@jack> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to all... If any of you guys are into computer gaming, Microprose just came out = with "B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty 8th! You need a pretty good system to run it, but its well worth it. I had my = Dad George (359th) playing it and he was moved by how realistic it was. It lets you choose from many historical missions. It lets you take on = any position in the plane, and I mean any! if you happen in the waist = gunner position and a bunch of FW-190's come screaming by with guns = blazing, well.... lets just say you'll get goosebumps. And you also = better drop those bombs at the right time! Its the closest this = generation will get to being there. If you were a pilot, you will not = believe the manual control settings, and it also lets you fly the = "little friends" or even take the controls of a FW-190 and see it from = there perspective as they headed into a formation.=20 Here's the web sight for more info and pictures... = http://www.b17flyingfortress.com/b17.html If anyone gets it or has it, let me know what you think.. Thanks... Jack Turkel {Family member) ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi to all...
 
 
If any of you guys are into computer = gaming,=20 Microprose just came out with "B-17 Flying Fortress" The Mighty=20 8th!
You need a pretty good system to run = it, but its=20 well worth it. I had my Dad George (359th) playing it and he was moved = by how=20 realistic it was.
It lets you choose from many historical = missions.=20 It lets you take on any position in the plane, and I mean any!  if = you=20 happen in the waist gunner position and a bunch of FW-190's come = screaming by=20 with guns blazing, well....  lets just say you'll get goosebumps. = And you=20 also better drop those bombs at the right time!  Its the closest = this=20 generation will get to being there.  If you were a pilot, you will = not=20 believe the manual control settings, and it also lets you fly the = "little=20 friends" or even take the controls of a FW-190 and see it from there = perspective=20 as they headed into a formation.
 
 
Here's the web sight for more info and=20 pictures...  http://www.b17flyingfo= rtress.com/b17.html
 
 
If anyone gets it or has it, let me = know what you=20 think..
 
Thanks...
 
Jack Turkel {Family=20 member)
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C07757.D450D060-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 09:54:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Matt Petersen) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 04:54:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: <005d01c077c6$acfa7920$5f7b3ec0@bb.unisys.com> Since, your on the subject of bombing targets, I have question. Did the Germans ever build a factory near a hospital, school, stalag, etc., in such close proximity that bombing the target would evoke the risk of hitting any of those places? It's not a favorable thing to kill civilians and bears out USAAF directives not to just release bombs when a target of opportunity wasn't available. I was once told about the use of timed bombs on railroad yards. The bomb was designed to penetrate into the ground, an acid vile would break that would eat away at a piece of lead triggering the bomb to explode. The bomb was stopped from use because it would go off and kill civilian workers, employed to repair the damaged railroad tracks. Yes, granted you couldn't keep a B-17 flying indefinitely on one engine but it would glide for some time. The B-24 on the hand would begin to drop at the lost of the first engine from what I understand. It was mainly due to the design of the planes. The B-24 had a wing with a high lift design, requiring a greater speed to maintain flight. The design gave the B-24 the ability to carry a greater bomb load but at the same time made it vulnerable to a higher stall speed. The B-17 wing design was capable of a lower stall speed allowing it to maintain flight at a lower speed. The down side of this is that the load that the B-17 was capable of carrying wasn't as great. The impression I received from my father was that he preferred the B-17 over the B-24 for the reasons given above and that the B-17 got him through his tour of duty. I know personally that I've gotten a great deal out this web site and 303rd talk site. Matt Petersen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Jan 6 15:18:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:18:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: <20010106.091820.-354715.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hi Matt, Regarding time delayed bombs, arming vane tail fuses M123A1 used with 250lb general purpose bombs and M124A1 used with 500lb bombs provided a delay action of from 1 to 144 hours. Another feature of these fuses was that the slightest attempt to unscrew them would detonate the bomb. They were considered dangerous to carry by the crews. As a bombardier I was happy that we didn't have to use them on any of my missions in 1945. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 04:23:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:23:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: Hi Matt On the subject of delayed fuses on bombs, I know that if your plane had some delayed action fused bombs in the bomb bay, even though the mission was scrubbed, the crew had to fly to the wash off the east cost and drop them in the water, since they could not be removed by the ground crews. We had this experience several times when the mission was scrubbed due to bad weather on the continent or for some other reason.. Ray Calenberg 303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 04:50:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:50:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: <42.f07992b.27894fa2@aol.com> Ray: I wondered why you Guys bombed us all the time. A. Fish, and Wife, Formally of The Wash, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:00:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:00:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #119 - 9 msgs Message-ID: Ever hear the rumor that Glen Miller was done in by Wash-aimed bombs that fell on the Norseman he was passenger in? Signed: Rumor Monger, Bob H. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:31:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:31:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Location of targets Message-ID: Hate to mention this, but war after all is war, and our bombs were dropped to inflict the most damage possible, regardless of people on ground. Hence the dropping of a mixture of instantaneous explosives, delayed action bombs, delayed incendiaries and frags. In no way did the flak batteries below seek to knock out the bombardier on each aircraft... that's for sure. One of the many propaganda films shown to us during our stay had to do with seeking nonmilitary objects in ground-strafing, and showed tracers from an attacking Mustang following a figure pushing a baby carriage up a street. The audio advised that such actions were intolerable and that the pilot in this case was now doing time in Leavenworth. But....and this is a qualified but....how do we know that this figure wasn't an SS officer in drag running a pram full of ammo. The Feb.3/45 raid to Berlin supposedly killed 25,000 refugees, which was a turning point in the war. I'm sure that civilians outnumbered the military in that regrettable, hideous bodycount. War is hell, but I wonder if we will ever learn our lesson. Bob Hand, Fink's Crew Bombardier, 303/360, 35m. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:48:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:48:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Message-ID: : That's a great story and one that I have heard from several who flew combat actually happened. Fighters or flak knocked of the stowage hatch door for the raft and out she tumbled. One radio operator, Preston Peterson, 385th BG, said one wrapped around the horizontal stabalizer and he used a flare to BURN it off! Pretty unbelievable, but if they were out of ammo, well maybe. Preston I think embelished the truth on several occasions during my interviews!! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:07 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:47:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:47:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Bill L Runnels 's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:18:41 -0600 Message-ID: <12481-3A58D5CC-92@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bil Runnels I question your statement that the bombardier course was 14 months. I went thru pre-flight at Santa Ana in four months, Bombardier school at Deming in three months (43-4) Navigation School at San Marcos (43-10) all in 12 months including travel time. Was in England in 14 months frrom the time I originally left home to become an Aviation cadet. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 20:52:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:52:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares In-Reply-To: Todd Hollritt 's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:35:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <12474-3A58D710-970@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I flew more than 20 missions in a PFF aircraft and don't ever remember firing flares at "Bombs Away. Nor do I ever remember looking on in amusement when another B-17 had a fire on board." Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 21:18:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:18:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier In-Reply-To: Rich 's message of Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:10:42 -0800 Message-ID: <12471-3A58DD27-1983@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Can you imagine what would have happened if all the bombardiers in the formation were working on the bombsight on the bomb run at the same time? Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:04:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:04:28 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <001401c078f5$cf52bac0$2abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mention was made a while back of a lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a = precautionary measure to keep the sight from the Germans. Question - was = there a=20 self -destruct device in the Norden bomb sight just in case that = particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C supply sgt. = heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault guard = duty in Victorville, I never did see one of them . That doesn't mean = much either as issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = they looked like.[ Took better than year I think!]=20 THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mention was made a while back of a=20 lead bombadier and 2 deputies - a precautionary measure to = keep the=20 sight from the Germans. Question - was there a
self -destruct device in the Norden = bomb sight just=20 in case that particular plane was shot down? Seems to me this dumb A/C = supply=20 sgt. heard rumors to that affect. Although I was on bomb sight vault = guard duty=20 in Victorville, I never did see  one of them . That doesn't = mean much=20 either as  issued a "bunch" ofl glycol pumps before I knew what = they looked=20 like.[ Took better than year I think!] 
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C078C3.8371C100-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:00:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:00:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.160019.-449659.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Hal, The referenced 13 month period was from the first day of Basic Training to Graduation from Advanced Bombardier School. As I recall the Navigator training was 15 months and the pilot was 18 months. Regards, Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:09:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:09:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.160907.-449659.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Hal, It might have improved the results. HA Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:19:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:19:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT Message-ID: <20010107.161934.-449659.2.billrunnels@juno.com> Maurice, In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden sight were well known by the enemy. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:41:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Len Hjalmarson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:41:29 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] NORDEN BOMB SIGHT In-Reply-To: <20010107.161934.-449659.2.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000401c078fa$f9ff7740$65014118@klht1.bc.wave.home.com> > In 1945 the only self-destruct device was the 45 in your holster. This > late in the war I think we can assume that the workings of the Norden > sight were well known by the enemy. The Germans had the Norden in hand in 1943. It may have been a bit earlier, but I'd have to check my sources. Anyone know the firm date? The British discovered this before the US knew about it, via their possession of the Enigma device, but they didn't share the information immediately with the US for fear of a breach of security. Len From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 22:41:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:41:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: Bill & Hal, There are 52 weeks in a year. At least that's the way I remember. I was flying B17s just about 32 Weeks after I got to classification, as a civilian,in Santa Anna and I went through a P38 Advanced before I got demoted to B17s. We did train about 9 weeks as a B17 crew, but that wouldn't get us near the 18 months quoted. Just for your information, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:13:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:13:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares References: <3b.eb65d0d.2787c67c@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c078ff$8ddc6a00$83b34d0c@netzero> Dear Bob, there are many intricacies about the set-up of the B-17 that I wonder about. Having made a bloody nuisance of myself over the past couple of years, I have held back from asking questions. Bits and pieces come together for me when you guys volunteer the minutia. Thanks , and happy new year, sir. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares > Wild stories abound! Try this one on for size: > Reachable from the B-17 radio room was a dangling red handle that deployed an > inflatable raft which exited through a roof hatch. On one particularly > rocky flight, a Kingman gunner student tugged at the handle in an effort to > steady himself, and in so doing, set the raft free (at 12,000 ft.) Said > rubber monstrosity wrapped itself around the right stabilizer, considerably > altering the stability of said aircraft. An astute instructor, with the > presence of mind of St. Pete, grabbed the starboard 50 caliber and artfully > shot the damned thing off the stabilizer, saving crew and machine from an > untimely demise. Th-th-that's all, folks! Next story please. Cheers, Bob > Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:42:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:42:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions References: Message-ID: <001b01c07903$7da37120$83b34d0c@netzero> Kevin, (if you learn differently let me know)...The information that I have indicates that in the set up of the formations, every aircraft was committed to salvo from the leader. To jettison a bomb load as you have described would entail the endangerment to the force and independent maneuvering to avoid flak would entail greater risk than the benefit derived. I'll bet there were alot of "puckered arses" and many will admit to a very fine line between cowards and heros. If you didn't get the job done the first time, then you'd just have to go back and do the job again. Questions like yours should be asked, and answered honestly by the men that were there, but I doubt seriously that there is any justifiable validity for doubt with respect to the reality. As ever, Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Two Questions > Here is a question I have long wondered about, but have feared offending > you. Flak over some of the cities in Occupied Europe I have been told was > murderous. Are any of you aware of any crews who ever jettisoned their > bombs so they would not have to fly through all the flak? I have also heard > that some groups would fly over a target not once, but sometimes two or > three times if the target was obscured. Did crews ever jettison to avoid > going back over the target? And what were the penalties if a crew or > Bombardier got caught doing this - court marshall? > > Not everyone who flew with the 8th was a brave sort. I have encountered > many, many crew members who have said that, "we had this one guy who just > couldn't take it and they moved him out." I've always wondered where they > moved these men to? Were they reassigned within the group, moved to a > headquarters unit, or were they humiliated and thrown out of the Air Corps? > > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Jan 7 23:47:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:47:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier Message-ID: <20010107.175300.-367181.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, Thanks for the info. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 00:00:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:00:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] togglier References: Message-ID: <002301c07906$08793620$83b34d0c@netzero> Jack, humility is not the forte of a damned good pilot. I recommend that you brag like a banshee, and keep sharing your experiences and expertise. In that way, idiots like me will not have to ask irreverant questions. You guys were there, alot of us weren't; and the History Channel , tho of great value in remembrance, gets alot of the real facts wrong. Happy New Year, my friend. Lloyd Grant (SOa427th). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] togglier > I suppose all Air Forces were a bit different as were different groups in the > same Air Force and Even different squadrons in the same group. BUT in the > 303rd when I was there in 1944 I have no recollection of any alternate bomb > sight of any nature being used or available. The lead and deputy lead were > the only ones who normally carried Nordon Bomb sights. As to my opinion the > Nordon Bomb sight as great as it was was only really great when coupled to > the really extra great C1 Auto Pilot. > > Now as long as I am making a fool of myself on this fancy and high > priced typewriter I am going to comment on the B17 flying on ONE engine. > Yes, it could for a while IF it was down hill all the way to where it was > going, not too far away, fairly unloaded and had Harry Gobrecht, Bill Heller, > Or Jack Rencher in the cockpit, sober and awake. I tried many times to take > off on two engines and never quite made it before I chickened out and added > the 3rd one, I think I could have made it a few times when I had a very long > runway at a low altitude and empty airplane but I just never quite had nerve > enough to really get it off. It would hold altitude on two engines OK if it > wasn't too heavy and you had one on each side. Especially if you had both > outboards. It would also hold altitude with 2 out on one side IF you knew > how. > > After I got back to the states I ferried quite a few B 24S.I must admit > they were a better bird than I thought they would be but They didn't have the > engine out performance in my opinion of a a B17. They were just a bit faster > below about 12,000 feet, Had a double bomb bay, 2 vertical tails back there > and you usually made just one landing per each approach, > Now you all can give me Hell men and boys. My shoulders are broad when > I am wearing my padded jacket. > > Modest Humble Jack Rencher, One of the two best damn 4 engine pilots in > the 8th Air Force. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 04:22:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Wanda Shepherd) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:22:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton Message-ID: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Hi, My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 09:41:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:41:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton In-Reply-To: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108043841.00a99100@home.1usa.com> Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.htm At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who >served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his >medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in >April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth >Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March >of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that >would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. >I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. >Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that >looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone >can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big >gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a >birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the >other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a >picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 09:50:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:50:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ed Helton In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108043841.00a99100@home.1usa.com> References: <3A59406B.964F0C28@zoomnet.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010108044947.00a99730@home.1usa.com> At 04:41 AM 1/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >Wanda, did you check out the picture of the Woods Crew. >http://www.303rdbga.com/427wood.html >At 11:22 PM 1/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi, >> My uncle was in WW2 and I want to say how proud I am of all who >>served. He is in his 70's and they just located and gave to him all his >>medals! Does anyone out there know anything about Ed Helton, Killed in >>April of 1944? I am searching for my birth father and have had 3 Birth >>Search Agencies tell me they think it might be him. I was born in March >>of 1944 and wondered why he didn't come back. If this is him, then that >>would explain it. Whether it's him or not, he seems to me to be a hero. >>I'd be proud to claim him for a father, but would like to know for sure. >>Need a picture, since I'm told I look a lot like him. Have a son that >>looks like me and there should be a resemblance. Please.....if anyone >>can help.....I've felt for years as if something were missing, some big >>gap in my life, even before I was old enough to realize I didn't have a >>birth father. I'm doing my family tree and would love to fill in the >>other side. Most of all, would love to know about my father, and have a >>picture of him. Wanda Brewer Shepherd >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>303rd-Talk mailing list >>303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 15:10:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:10:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Marker Flares Message-ID: <80.53ab99c.278b3282@aol.com> Ask and thou shalt receive....glad to oblige. Happy New Year.....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 17:42:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:42:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] My comments Message-ID: <003b01c0799a$63f1f660$f99a46c6@fory> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having read many msg's on many subjects, I would like to add my = recollections. As RO on Kuykendalls crew(360th), we did 30 missions. The last 20 were = in lead position. I was a "chaff" sgt on first 10. My job was to also watch that bomb bay was clear and was aware of the = smoke bombs on those last 20. I also recall only 3 sqdns ---a high, low = and lead formation comprised our mission. I never saw a red handle in any acft I flew in. I am so glad we never = ditched. I did shoot off a bunch of flares on our 30th. It sure spread = out our forrmation. We were on way home from that target. Do I qualify as togglier? I had to trigger two hung bombs one time. I = also had to run a K-28(?) camera from the camera well, send a bomb = strike report and check the bomb bay. Also had a Mickey Operator for = company many times. Only 3 of the 10 on our crew are left. Well, the second gunner was taken = from us upon arrival in 360th. Do not know what happened to him but he = is not in roster book. I enjoy the talk each day, Thanks Gary. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having read many msg's on many = subjects, I would=20 like to add my recollections.
As RO on Kuykendalls crew(360th), we = did 30=20 missions. The last 20 were in lead position. I was a "chaff" sgt on = first=20 10.
 
My job was to also watch that bomb bay = was clear=20 and was aware of the smoke bombs on those last 20. I also recall only 3 = sqdns=20 ---a high, low and lead formation comprised our mission.
I never saw a red handle in any acft I = flew in.=20 I am so glad we never ditched. I did shoot off a bunch of flares on our = 30th. It=20 sure spread out our forrmation. We were on way home from that=20 target.
Do I qualify as togglier? I had to = trigger two=20 hung bombs one time. I also had to run a K-28(?) camera from the camera = well,=20 send a bomb strike report and check the bomb bay.  Also had a = Mickey=20 Operator for company many times.
Only 3 of the 10 on our crew are left. = Well, the=20 second gunner was taken from us upon arrival in 360th. Do not know what = happened=20 to him but he is not in roster book.
I enjoy the talk each day, Thanks=20 Gary.
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C07968.18C07680-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 21:34:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:34:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" Message-ID: <002201c079ba$d3ced780$5abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had a new man come into the A/C Supply in middle or late 1944 that = sported a set of gunners wings on hus tunic. It was rumored he ask for = a transfer. I don't know if he came from a replacement pool or if he was = transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He never wore the = wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to question = him. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We had a new man come into the A/C = Supply in=20 middle  or late 1944 that sported a set of gunners wings on hus = tunic. It=20 was rumored he ask for a transfer. I don't know if he came from a = replacement=20 pool or if he was transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He = never=20 wore the wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to = question=20 him.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C07988.88635BE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Jan 8 21:36:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:36:45 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C07987.4B7B6DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maurice:  I've heard many crews say thay had "this one guy who just couldn't take it."  And they all seem embarrased by that fact and no one knows what happened to these guys.  More curiosity than anything.  Hope I'm not "stepping on any toes" by asking. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Maurice Paulk Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 3:34 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] KEVIN PEARSON -"COULDN'T TAKE IT --- MOVED HIM OUT" We had a new man come into the A/C Supply in middle  or late 1944 that sported a set of gunners wings on hus tunic. It was rumored he ask for a transfer. I don't know if he came from a replacement pool or if he was transfered from one of the 303rd's bomb squadrons. He never wore the wings very long. I didn't have intestinal fortitude enough to question him.   THE MOUNTAIN MAN           a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOS