From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 14:19:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:19:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kiel Message-ID: Two years ago I visited the sub pens at Keil and it was something else. The pens are now owned by a private shipping company. But the harbor master gave me a guided tour. There is still a sub in the pens! According to the local maritime museum, the pens were never damaged by the Eighth. In January of 45, the RAF dropped Tall Boys, 12,000 pound HEs, and did major damage. When the pens were over run by the Allies, the British finished the job and blew them up with the sub inside. The director of the maritime museum also did some research on the flak batteries around Keil during the war and he gave me a complete copy! Man, no wonder you guys had a rough go of it over the target! It lists the number, size, and location of all the flak batteries, something over 200. If anyone is interested in a copy of this material, send me your address. I've got some great pics of the pens as they are today and as they were then, but I can't post them here. If anyone has an interest in visiting Keil, here are a few contacts: Seehafen Kiel (this is the harbour authority of the City of Kiel) Bollhoernkai 1 D-24103 Kiel Managing Director: Mr. Joerg Ruedel Phone: 011.49.431.9822100 Fax: 011.49.431.9822105 Stadtarchiv und Untere Denkmalschutzbehoerde, Stadt- und Schiffahrtsmuseum (The authority in charge with the archives of the City of Kiel, protection of historical monuments, City Museum, Shipping Museum) City Hall D-24103 Kiel Head of department: Dr. Juergen Jensen Phone: 011.49.431.9013420 Fax : 011.49.431.9013484 >From: "Ed Lamme" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kiel >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:54 -0600 > >To Lloyd Grant: > My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme. I was bombardier on A. C. Strickland's >crew . On that mission we were flying in the #3 spot and after leaving the >target area we were under almost constant attack from FW l90's and ME >109's. They made a pass at our Group and right through our squadron. We >were flying in StricNine and sustained some damage, but no one was hit. On >a second pass through our squadron Stockton was hit and from what were told >his reflex action caused loss of control. As he was flying in #1 spot, all >of the squadron followed. Barker and the flight engineer regained control >and he led the squadron back to Molesworth. > > As our quarters were in the same complex as Stockton's, we knew them >quite well and that evening we were in John's room hoisting a few when he >was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went out of control. Luckily one >of the participants in the room was our Flight Surgeon, a Capt. Lame, and >he sedated John and we were told the next day that he had been sent to a >rest facility I know he returned and finished out his tour. I agree that >he and the flight engineer both deserved commendation for not only saving >his crew, but leading the squadron back home. I cannot recall your father, >although I must have known him. > > Hope the above helps you out. > >Ed Lamme >junned@humboldt1.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 15:33:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:33:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report In-Reply-To: "Kevin Pearson" 's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:58:29 -0600 Message-ID: <13146-3A7981CF-1085@storefull-243.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Kevin: How big is the St. Joseph Chamber of Commerce? When I retired from the Air Force in 1973 I went to work for the Austin, Texas Chamber of Commerce as the Director of Communications; as such I put out all the Chamber publications including a monthly magazine and monthly tabloid size newspaper. I did it for 13 years. Wheni retired I put out the Hell's Angels Newsletter for 13 years. I went through the Kiel Canal several year ago when i visited Rostock, Berlin, Helsinki, Oslo, etc. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 17:26:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <17052-3A788CCA-139@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000901c08c74$1abd9160$37904d0c@netzero> Hal, I had a feeling that this was not an "original" thought when I suggested it. Perhaps if scaled down to those that really have an interest the idea may have still a germ of feasibility. Don Kennan and I share an interest probably because his Uncle and my dad were original crew on Stocktons plane. I will take your advice. Thanks for your reply and best wishes. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "303rd Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > Lloyd Grant Re: your > sugggestion for compiling a History of the 303rd BG. We tried to > undertake this project about 8 years ago when Ed Miller was president of > the Association. It came up during a Board meeting. Each of the Squadron > reps were to be reponsible for their squadron inputs to include > organizationa chars, etc., Only one squadron, the 359th, completed its > task. Al Morton went above and beyond the original plans. He published > his repot in book form which he published on his own. That is the book > that Brian McGuire mentioned in his message a few weeks ago. If you > printed out Gary Moncur's 303rd Web site you would have the finest > history ever written. That married to Harry Gobrecht's Might in Fliight > is all anyone would ever need. Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 16:03:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:03:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report In-Reply-To: "Bill Owen" 's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:47:30 -0600 Message-ID: <23975-3A7988E0-672@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> The last estimate I saw for the amount of time it takes to get any reply from any of the records organizations is TWO YEARS. That is what time it took for Charlie Schmeltzer to get an answer for his request for medal replacements--and they sent him the wrong medals. My suggestion to anyone requesting an answer from any of these organizations is to go through your congressman. That should speed it up by a year. I think it is easier to get elected president than to get any kind of an answer from records organizations. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 19:17:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:17:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report In-Reply-To: <23975-3A7988E0-672@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Owen" 's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:47:30 -0600 Message-ID: <3A79700A.2044.174F3F7@localhost> > The last estimate I saw for the amount of time it takes to get any reply > from any of the records organizations is TWO YEARS. One exception to the above is the AFHRA at Maxwell AFB. I made an E-mail request for info on the 303rd BG and the 360thBS, and they responded with a list of applicable microfilm reels within a couple days. After I ordered the reels, it took less than a month to get them. Unfortunately, I don't think they have MACR reports at Maxwell, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Re to getting the MACRs from NARA, it might be best to just make a trip up to College Park. If you visit them, they assign a researcher to show you how to find things, and if you know specifically what you want, they can usually go right to it, and you'll have it within an hour or two. It might help also, to search the NAIL search engine on the web, but it is not easy. I did run across a listing for a microfilm reel containing MACR reports one time I was searching that site, but I couldn't find it the next time I looked, and it doesn't let you save the location of a sucessful search. Since the NARA archive is close to Baltimore, it might make an interesting side trip for those going to Baltimore in Sept. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 1 19:38:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:38:39 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report Message-ID: Hi Hal: Good to hear from a fellow Chamber Exec! And Eighth Air Force friend! The St. Joseph MSA is about 160,000, but we are only 50 miles from downtown Kansas City and are very active there. My job is business attraction and I have done quite well with it here. Our budget is about $1 million a year. Newsletters! For the past seven years I have publish The Rally Point, a quarterly newsletter of the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the 8th AFHS. My desktop publishing skills are getting pretty good. You should have gone to Barth while you went to Rostock. Stalag Luft 1 was at Barth and some foundations are left and a beautiful memorial. Kinda hard to get to Barth though. I've enjoyed your comments over the last few months. All I can say is I'm glad I wasn't with you in England during the war! I have read and written about the Eighth for the last 32 years, and the one thing I've learned is there was no glory in flying combat. I'm sure the "pucker factor" was exponential with each fighter and burst of flak. I did not do Kiel Canal, but I'll bet it was beautiful. Did you go up the east side of Kiel Harbor to the U-Boat that is on display. It puts the U-505 to shame. It looks brand new and maybe was - it's the U-493. Thanks for the comments! >From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:33:35 -0600 (CST) > >Kevin: How big is the St. Joseph Chamber of Commerce? When I retired >from the Air Force in 1973 I went to work for the Austin, Texas Chamber >of Commerce as the Director of Communications; as such I put out all the >Chamber publications including a monthly magazine and monthly tabloid >size newspaper. I did it for 13 years. Wheni retired I put out the >Hell's Angels Newsletter for 13 years. I went through the Kiel Canal >several year ago when i visited Rostock, Berlin, Helsinki, Oslo, etc. >Hal Susskind > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 14:26:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:26:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: <3A7A7D44.463.62A5E1@localhost> On one of my father's briefing sheets, there is a note saying that he was supposed to follow a certain plane to the takeoff, which I took to suggest that there was a specific order in which planes taxied prior to takeoff. This made me wonder just what this order might be, because I assume that it would be preferable for the 3 squadrons to assemble at about the same time rather than having one squadron assemble first (and this question is specific to the later periods when 3 13 plane squadrons flew on a mission). It seems logical that they would first send up the group assembly plane, then squadron lead planes, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th flight lead planes from each squadron, and then the rest of the planes in some random order. Was something like this done, or did the squadrons take off as a unit, or was there some other order, or was it just random except for the lead planes? What was the order, and why? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 19:47:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:47:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #144 - 4 msgs References: <20010202170614.47FD3537C3@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <002001c08d51$0244bae0$4ebb9ace@mjpmtman> > Message: 1 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:03:44 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > > The last estimate I saw for the amount of time it takes to get any reply > from any of the records organizations is TWO YEARS. > Hal Susskind I don't know if this information is worth anything or not. BUT --I applied for all my awards last August through the Hall County VA Service officer. They told me it wouild take a year at least. I know of another applicant that took a year [almost to the day ] to get his medals, awards, ribbons etc. I received all my military records in about a week from St. Louis by going through the county office. I still have 7 months to go before I find out if I am "lucky." From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 19:38:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:38:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 Message-ID: <2234-3A7B0CBE-3474@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Lloyd Grant Somwheres in my research files I have a copy of the early history of the 427th sqdn. I'll look for it when I get back from the hospital. I'm due for a hip replacement of my hip replacement on February 22nd. The hip they put in was recalled because of a defect. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 20:38:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:38:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: Here is my guess Bill and please note I do say guess. The guys who were there will know for sure and I am sure the practice varied from Group to Group. I'm sure at breifing all pilots were told the order of takeoff. The military is pretty exact when it comes to procedures. And I am also guessing colored flares were used to signal each squadron. I know flares were fired to signal start engines, taxi, and to signal each aircraft its turn to take off. Keep in mind those runways were over a mile in length and on a foggy morning, pilots could not see if an a/c had cleared the runway or not. There were mobile control towers that sat at the end of runways on takeoff and return and were charged with firing flares to signal each plane it's turn in landing and taking off. I think you are right about squadrons and flights within each squadron in terms of order. But we need to hear the truth from a vet. Come on, Hal, how about it? Sorry to hear about your hip replacement, I know that can be tough! But remember this, you have lived through worse! Best of luck my friend! Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:26:28 -0500 > > On one of my father's briefing sheets, there is a note saying that he >was supposed >to follow a certain plane to the takeoff, which I took to suggest that >there was a >specific order in which planes taxied prior to takeoff. This made me >wonder just what >this order might be, because I assume that it would be preferable for the 3 >squadrons >to assemble at about the same time rather than having one squadron assemble >first >(and this question is specific to the later periods when 3 13 plane >squadrons flew on >a mission). > It seems logical that they would first send up the group assembly >plane, then >squadron lead planes, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th flight lead planes from >each squadron, >and then the rest of the planes in some random order. Was something like >this >done, or did the squadrons take off as a unit, or was there some other >order, or was it >just random except for the lead planes? What was the order, and why? > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 20:58:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:58:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) In-Reply-To: <2234-3A7B0CBE-3474@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 Message-ID: <3A7AD910.19706.1C946FA@localhost> > Lloyd Grant Somwheres in > my research files I have a copy of the early history of the 427th sqdn. Re squadron histories, I had remembered seeing a "history of the 360th squadron" on the microfilm I have, (and I think I remember seeing something similar for the 359th also), so I went back and looked at it yesterday, after this topic came up. Unfortunately, the "history" there was the "very early" history, ie from the inception of the squadron through the early months of deployment, but had little or nothing for the periods after early 1943. The microfilm also showed the pages of a very detailed journal diary for the squadron, which ended I think in May of 1943. I think that there was another historical passage on the microfilm after the Jan 10th 300th mission, but overall, most of the what they have there is for the early part of the squadron's existance, but not much for the later periods. Despite this, the information on the microfilm might make the beginnings of a squadron history. There would have to be considerable input from people with stories about the periods after early 1943 though. The microfilm for the later periods of the war has mission by mission information regarding what planes and crews flew to each target, and day by day administrative records of transfers in and out of the squadron, promotions, etc, and very brief narratives of each mission, but is lacking any personal accounts of what was going on. It would be possible to put together an impersonal squadron history from the microfilm, but it would be a lot of work. Might be worth trying though. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 21:42:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:42:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? In-Reply-To: "Kevin Pearson" 's message of Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:38:47 -0600 Message-ID: <27025-3A7B29AB-4331@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Kevin I'll let one of the pilots answer what they did from start engines to takeoff, climb out and forming up and the use of flares, etc. My work started when we departed base to arrival back at base. Otherwise the pilot's union will put me in the doghouse. This is my second hip operation. The first hip was recalled like the Firetone tires. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 22:47:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:47:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <2234-3A7B0CBE-3474@storefull-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001a01c08d6a$20fa53a0$10904d0c@netzero> Dear Hal, Many thanks , but no rush. I have been at this for this for almost 3 years now (slow learner) and if not for the people like yourself , and the others I have had the good fortune to have met via the 303rd web site, I would have just given up. Thanks to you , and everyone for your help, understanding , and most of all ; patience. I think that I speak for everyone in saying that I hope your "new landing gear" will serve you well. Best wishes and a speedy recovery, Hal. Your friend, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > Lloyd Grant Somwheres in > my research files I have a copy of the early history of the 427th sqdn. > I'll look for it when I get back from the hospital. I'm due for a hip > replacement of my hip replacement on February 22nd. The hip they put in > was recalled because of a defect. Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 23:19:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:19:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 <3A7AD910.19706.1C946FA@localhost> Message-ID: <002401c08d6e$91496840$10904d0c@netzero> Bill, I appreciate your comments and insights. I think you have caught the gist of what I had in mind; to wit, I would like to focus my attention on the 427th. If I can learn enough about the squadron that my dad flew with then perhaps I can help others whose fathers and relatives also were in the 427th. The history and experiences of each unit make up the whole of the total. The sum of which is , of course, the 303rd BG(H). Trying to eat the whole pie at one sitting is a daunting task I am at the point now where I recognize aircraft , names, and faces. Once again, thank you. Very best, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > > Lloyd Grant Somwheres in > > my research files I have a copy of the early history of the 427th sqdn. > > Re squadron histories, I had remembered seeing a "history of the 360th squadron" on > the microfilm I have, (and I think I remember seeing something similar for the 359th > also), so I went back and looked at it yesterday, after this topic came up. > Unfortunately, the "history" there was the "very early" history, ie from the inception of > the squadron through the early months of deployment, but had little or nothing for the > periods after early 1943. The microfilm also showed the pages of a very detailed journal > diary for the squadron, which ended I think in May of 1943. I think that there was > another historical passage on the microfilm after the Jan 10th 300th mission, but > overall, most of the what they have there is for the early part of the squadron's > existance, but not much for the later periods. > Despite this, the information on the microfilm might make the beginnings of a > squadron history. There would have to be considerable input from people with stories > about the periods after early 1943 though. > The microfilm for the later periods of the war has mission by mission information > regarding what planes and crews flew to each target, and day by day administrative > records of transfers in and out of the squadron, promotions, etc, and very brief > narratives of each mission, but is lacking any personal accounts of what was going on. > It would be possible to put together an impersonal squadron history from the microfilm, > but it would be a lot of work. Might be worth trying though. > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 01:32:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Wanda Shepherd) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:32:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #143 - 6 msgs References: <20010201182854.0EE99536C6@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3A7B5FB7.2421175F@zoomnet.net> UNSUBSCRIBE 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Missing Air Crew Report (Bill Owen) > 2. Kiel (Ed Lamme) > 3. Re: A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) (Harold Susskind) > 4. Re: Kiel (Kevin Pearson) > 5. Re: Missing Air Crew Report (Harold Susskind) > 6. Re: A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) (Lloyd J H Grant) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Bill Owen" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:56:15 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Thank you, John. I just finished sending her an Email with all the pertinent > info. Bill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 10:57 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > > > Bill, > > In mid July I requested the MACR# 11199 for the Cureton crew. Most of > > this crew was KIA on the 21Nov44 mission to Merseburg. There was only a > > single survivor. After several emails a microfiche and a hard copy > > materialized in September. I dealt with Regina Davis who may be reached > at > > regina.davis@arch2.nara.gov. I hope this is of some assistance. Much of > the > > information in the MACR is administrative in nature. If any German (KU) > > reports are available they will also be included. > > > > John A. Jenkins > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Ed Lamme" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:54 -0600 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kiel > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > To Lloyd Grant: > My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme. I was bombardier on A. C. = > Strickland's crew . On that mission we were flying in the #3 spot and = > after leaving the target area we were under almost constant attack from = > FW l90's and ME 109's. They made a pass at our Group and right through = > our squadron. We were flying in StricNine and sustained some damage, = > but no one was hit. On a second pass through our squadron Stockton was = > hit and from what were told his reflex action caused loss of control. = > As he was flying in #1 spot, all of the squadron followed. Barker and = > the flight engineer regained control and he led the squadron back to = > Molesworth. =20 > > As our quarters were in the same complex as Stockton's, we knew = > them quite well and that evening we were in John's room hoisting a few = > when he was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went out of control. = > Luckily one of the participants in the room was our Flight Surgeon, a = > Capt. Lame, and he sedated John and we were told the next day that he = > had been sent to a rest facility I know he returned and finished out = > his tour. I agree that he and the flight engineer both deserved = > commendation for not only saving his crew, but leading the squadron back = > home. I cannot recall your father, although I must have known him. > > Hope the above helps you out. > > Ed Lamme > junned@humboldt1.com > =20 > > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
To Lloyd Grant:
>
     My name is Edwin (Ed) = > Lamme.  I=20 > was bombardier on A. C. Strickland's crew .  On that mission we = > were flying=20 > in the #3 spot and after leaving the target area we were under almost = > constant=20 > attack from FW l90's and ME 109's.  They made a pass at our Group = > and right=20 > through our squadron.  We were flying in StricNine and sustained = > some=20 > damage, but no one was hit.  On a second pass through our squadron = > Stockton=20 > was hit and from what were told his reflex action caused loss of = > control. =20 > As he was flying in #1 spot, all of the squadron followed.  Barker = > and the=20 > flight engineer regained control and he led the squadron back to=20 > Molesworth. 
>
 
>
     As our quarters were in the same complex = > as=20 > Stockton's, we knew them quite well and that evening we were in John's = > room=20 > hoisting a few when he was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went = > out of=20 > control.  Luckily one of the participants in the room was our = > Flight=20 > Surgeon, a Capt. Lame, and he sedated John and we were told the next day = > that he=20 > had been sent to a rest facility  I know he returned and finished = > out his=20 > tour.  I agree that he and the flight engineer both deserved = > commendation=20 > for not only saving his crew, but leading the squadron back home.  = > I cannot=20 > recall your father, although I must have known him.
>
 
>
     Hope the above helps you out.
>
 
>
Ed Lamme
> >
  id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__> 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C08B8D.877ADE80-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:08:10 -0600 (CST) > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd Talk) > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Lloyd Grant Re: your > sugggestion for compiling a History of the 303rd BG. We tried to > undertake this project about 8 years ago when Ed Miller was president of > the Association. It came up during a Board meeting. Each of the Squadron > reps were to be reponsible for their squadron inputs to include > organizationa chars, etc., Only one squadron, the 359th, completed its > task. Al Morton went above and beyond the original plans. He published > his repot in book form which he published on his own. That is the book > that Brian McGuire mentioned in his message a few weeks ago. If you > printed out Gary Moncur's 303rd Web site you would have the finest > history ever written. That married to Harry Gobrecht's Might in Fliight > is all anyone would ever need. Hal Susskind > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Kiel > Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:19:51 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Two years ago I visited the sub pens at Keil and it was something else. The > pens are now owned by a private shipping company. But the harbor master > gave me a guided tour. There is still a sub in the pens! According to the > local maritime museum, the pens were never damaged by the Eighth. In > January of 45, the RAF dropped Tall Boys, 12,000 pound HEs, and did major > damage. When the pens were over run by the Allies, the British finished the > job and blew them up with the sub inside. The director of the maritime > museum also did some research on the flak batteries around Keil during the > war and he gave me a complete copy! Man, no wonder you guys had a rough go > of it over the target! It lists the number, size, and location of all the > flak batteries, something over 200. If anyone is interested in a copy of > this material, send me your address. I've got some great pics of the pens > as they are today and as they were then, but I can't post them here. If > anyone has an interest in visiting Keil, here are a few contacts: > > Seehafen Kiel (this is the harbour authority of the City of Kiel) > Bollhoernkai 1 > D-24103 Kiel > Managing Director: Mr. Joerg Ruedel > Phone: 011.49.431.9822100 > Fax: 011.49.431.9822105 > > Stadtarchiv und Untere Denkmalschutzbehoerde, Stadt- und Schiffahrtsmuseum > (The authority in charge with the archives of the City of Kiel, protection > of historical monuments, City Museum, Shipping Museum) > City Hall > D-24103 Kiel > Head of department: Dr. Juergen Jensen > Phone: 011.49.431.9013420 > Fax : 011.49.431.9013484 > > >From: "Ed Lamme" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Kiel > >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:54 -0600 > > > >To Lloyd Grant: > > My name is Edwin (Ed) Lamme. I was bombardier on A. C. Strickland's > >crew . On that mission we were flying in the #3 spot and after leaving the > >target area we were under almost constant attack from FW l90's and ME > >109's. They made a pass at our Group and right through our squadron. We > >were flying in StricNine and sustained some damage, but no one was hit. On > >a second pass through our squadron Stockton was hit and from what were told > >his reflex action caused loss of control. As he was flying in #1 spot, all > >of the squadron followed. Barker and the flight engineer regained control > >and he led the squadron back to Molesworth. > > > > As our quarters were in the same complex as Stockton's, we knew them > >quite well and that evening we were in John's room hoisting a few when he > >was re-living the ordeal when he suddenly went out of control. Luckily one > >of the participants in the room was our Flight Surgeon, a Capt. Lame, and > >he sedated John and we were told the next day that he had been sent to a > >rest facility I know he returned and finished out his tour. I agree that > >he and the flight engineer both deserved commendation for not only saving > >his crew, but leading the squadron back home. I cannot recall your father, > >although I must have known him. > > > > Hope the above helps you out. > > > >Ed Lamme > >junned@humboldt1.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:33:35 -0600 (CST) > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Missing Air Crew Report > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Kevin: How big is the St. Joseph Chamber of Commerce? When I retired > from the Air Force in 1973 I went to work for the Austin, Texas Chamber > of Commerce as the Director of Communications; as such I put out all the > Chamber publications including a monthly magazine and monthly tabloid > size newspaper. I did it for 13 years. Wheni retired I put out the > Hell's Angels Newsletter for 13 years. I went through the Kiel Canal > several year ago when i visited Rostock, Berlin, Helsinki, Oslo, etc. > Hal Susskind > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: "Lloyd J H Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hal, I had a feeling that this was not an "original" thought when I > suggested it. Perhaps if scaled down to those that really have an interest > the idea may have still a germ of feasibility. Don Kennan and I share an > interest probably because his Uncle and my dad were original crew on > Stocktons plane. I will take your advice. Thanks for your reply and best > wishes. Lloyd Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harold Susskind" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Cc: "303rd Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > > > Lloyd Grant Re: your > > sugggestion for compiling a History of the 303rd BG. We tried to > > undertake this project about 8 years ago when Ed Miller was president of > > the Association. It came up during a Board meeting. Each of the Squadron > > reps were to be reponsible for their squadron inputs to include > > organizationa chars, etc., Only one squadron, the 359th, completed its > > task. Al Morton went above and beyond the original plans. He published > > his repot in book form which he published on his own. That is the book > > that Brian McGuire mentioned in his message a few weeks ago. If you > > printed out Gary Moncur's 303rd Web site you would have the finest > > history ever written. That married to Harry Gobrecht's Might in Fliight > > is all anyone would ever need. Hal Susskind > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 04:01:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:01:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: <70.7842386.27acdc95@aol.com> I'll Tell you what I think I remember. Harry will probably answer this too as will President Dick. We assembled on a radio beacon that was 19 and one half miles west of our field. The four 303rd squadrons took off and climbed to our assigned altitude and circled the beacon in a counter clockwise direction until our 12 or 13 planes were in there assigned positions. The Groups from Grafton Underwood and Kimbolton used this beacon also. So each squadron was assigned a different altitude to assemble. and each group was assigned a time to leave the beacon so we would arrive at the English coast out in a line one close behind the one another. It is only logical that the first to leave the beacon would be the first to take off and assemble at the higher altitudes. It is also logical that the lead planes in each squadron would be the first to take off so the following planes would have something to get into formation on. Be aware the Army was not always logical. When we climbed up thru clouds, Fog Low visibility, etc., we would have the tail gunner flash a Morris code signal out the tail. Each squadron was assigned a different letter. Then if you saw a plane ahead of you that was flashing your squadrons letter you could just follow him and if every one did this we would all be in a line to the assembly point. As we had 3 groups taking off very close to each other and heading for the same radio station this helped avoid mid air collisions in the fog and speeded up the time it took us all to get into our formations. For a while we had a few planes that had lot of flashing lights for us to assemble on but as I remember this did not work too well and was discarded. Once you got to the station at your squadrons altitude and saw a partial formation making a big left turn around the station it was easy to cut inside of them in a smaller circle, catch them without even speeding up and getting into your position in the formation. Once they left the station and were going in a straight line it was hard to catch them and used a lot of fuel that you might need just before you landed when and if you got back. If this doesn't answer your questions I hope Harry or Dick will do better. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 04:29:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:29:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: <4b.6f7faac.27ace31d@cs.com> The assembly point after takeoff was known as the 'Harrington Buncher'. Dad has referred to this location many times in conversation. You may view a depiction of Molesworth and the 'Buncher' at www.303rdbga.com/aircraft-assembly.html. Additionally, from what I can tell from my visit to Molesworth this past June, the 303rd BG Memorial is positioned somewhere near the east end of the main east-west runway. John A. Jenkins From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 04:57:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:57:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour Message-ID: <002601c08d9d$d1357fa0$0e8f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C08D73.E43F8F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many of you flew more than one tour of duty. Considering the heavy = losses early in the air war what motivated you to take such a risk = again? =20 If you re-upped for a second tour how much time did you get for R&R = before you returned to combat status? Would you be assigned to the same Group, or , assigned where needed? = (Did you have a choice?) How did Casablanca fit in to the scheme of things? ( It seems an odd = place to decommission an air force group.) Many of you were career Air Force members who served 20 or more years. = What happened after the war in Europe was won? Where were you assigned? = ( beside the obvious). How many of you transitioned to SAC? Well, there's a plate full, hey. Looking forward to all responses with = thanks in advance. Sincere regards, Lloyd Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C08D73.E43F8F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many of you flew more than one tour of = duty. =20 Considering the heavy losses early in the air war what motivated you to = take=20 such a risk again? 
If you re-upped for a second tour how = much time did=20 you get for R&R before you returned to combat status?
Would you be assigned to the same = Group, or ,=20 assigned where needed?  (Did you have a choice?)
How did Casablanca fit in to the = scheme of=20 things? ( It seems an odd place to decommission an air force=20 group.)
Many of you were career Air Force = members who=20 served 20 or more years.  What happened after the war in Europe was = won?=20 Where were you assigned? ( beside the obvious).
How many of you transitioned to = SAC?
Well, there's a plate full, hey.  = Looking=20 forward to all responses with thanks in advance.
Sincere regards, Lloyd=20 Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C08D73.E43F8F20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 05:16:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:16:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? References: <70.7842386.27acdc95@aol.com> Message-ID: <002c01c08da0$6d7f0aa0$0e8f4d0c@netzero> Jack, your response to this helps to explain alot about the take-off and assembly procedure. It occurs to me that the first aircraft up would certainly have a higher rate of fuel consumption as they circled awaiting the others to join up. Was fuel allotted to allow for this? If so how might it have affected take-off weight? If extra fuel was not allotted, were there any other compensatory measures calculated in? Thanks. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? > I'll Tell you what I think I remember. Harry will probably answer this too > as will President Dick. > > We assembled on a radio beacon that was 19 and one half miles west of our > field. The four 303rd squadrons took off and climbed to our assigned > altitude and circled the beacon in a counter clockwise direction until our 12 > or 13 planes were in there assigned positions. The Groups from Grafton > Underwood and Kimbolton used this beacon also. So each squadron was assigned > a different altitude to assemble. and each group was assigned a time to leave > the beacon so we would arrive at the English coast out in a line one close > behind the one another. It is only logical that the first to leave the > beacon would be the first to take off and assemble at the higher altitudes. > It is also logical that the lead planes in each squadron would be the first > to take off so the following planes would have something to get into > formation on. Be aware the Army was not always logical. When we climbed up > thru clouds, Fog Low visibility, etc., we would have the tail gunner flash a > Morris code signal out the tail. Each squadron was assigned a different > letter. Then if you saw a plane ahead of you that was flashing your > squadrons letter you could just follow him and if every one did this we would > all be in a line to the assembly point. As we had 3 groups taking off very > close to each other and heading for the same radio station this helped avoid > mid air collisions in the fog and speeded up the time it took us all to get > into our formations. > > For a while we had a few planes that had lot of flashing lights for us to > assemble on but as I remember this did not work too well and was discarded. > Once you got to the station at your squadrons altitude and saw a partial > formation making a big left turn around the station it was easy to cut inside > of them in a smaller circle, catch > them without even speeding up and getting into your position in the > formation. Once they left the station and were going in a straight line it > was hard to catch them and used a lot of fuel that you might need just before > you landed when and if you got back. > If this doesn't answer your questions I hope Harry or Dick will do better. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 07:07:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:07:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: Lloyd, We all carried the same fuel load. The first off were the first to land. As a general rule the first off were in the front of the line of Bombers. The further back from the lead you were flying the more difficult it was to hold your position in the formation and the more fuel you had to use. The easiest position in the formation to fly was the lead plane. After he got to altitude he could put the plane on auto pilot and never touch his throttles again until after we dropped the Bombs and started to let down. The tail end charlies were changing power settings constantly hence using more fuel. The closer you were to the lead the easier it was to hold formation and the less fuel you used. The lead rarely ran out of fuel. Once in a while they ran out of brains except when Hal was lead Navigator. The late models carried 1732 gallons as I remember and on the long missions we all took off with them full and got back with not much or less if you came back on 3 engines From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 07:51:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:51:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Message-ID: Lloyd, I just read the last reply I sent you. I hit the wrong key. It was 2732 gallons. It must be late. Shame on me. Goodnight Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 13:49:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:49:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? In-Reply-To: <70.7842386.27acdc95@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A7BC621.7434.49F931@localhost> > I'll Tell you what I think I remember. Harry will probably answer this too > as will President Dick. > > We assembled on a radio beacon that was 19 and one half miles west of our > field. The four 303rd squadrons took off and climbed to our assigned > altitude and circled the beacon in a counter clockwise direction until our 12 > or 13 planes were in there assigned positions. The Groups from Grafton > Underwood and Kimbolton used this beacon also. Thanks for the nice description of T.O. and assembly. One of the missions I have been researching, had comments about running short of fuel because it took them longer to assemble because a squadron from another bomb group ("C" group from the 40th CBW) flew through their assembly circle going the wrong direction, causing the whole squadron to scatter and take longer to re-assemble. I assume this meant that the circle from a neighboring combat wing got a bit too wide and intercected with the 303rdBG (41st CBW) circle? In any event, the assembly operation sounds like it must have been a complicated thing to accomplish. Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 13:49:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:49:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A7BC621.10607.49F8C5@localhost> > Lloyd, I just read the last reply I sent you. I hit the wrong key. It was > 2732 gallons. > It must be late. Shame on me. Goodnight Jack I was just about to ask about this, because I have a bunch of these little note sheets (see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/apr5nt.jpg for an example) which down at the bottom said 2700 gas on most of them. A couple of them said 2500, but they were for shorter missions. Thanks for clairifying that all planes carried the same fuel. I was wondering about that too. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 20:51:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:51:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? References: Message-ID: <001701c08e23$0eebae20$e68e4d0c@netzero> Thanks for shedding light on this topic, Jack. Best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? > Lloyd, I just read the last reply I sent you. I hit the wrong key. It was > 2732 gallons. > It must be late. Shame on me. Goodnight Jack > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 22:08:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Georgia McSorley) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:08:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Keil Raid Message-ID: Arni Sumarlidason wonders if there is anyone who remembers the Keil Raid on June 13,1943? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 3 21:38:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:38:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour Message-ID: <6a.b046784.27add446@aol.com> Well, I'll tell ya, pardner, one tour was enough for this person, and my hat's off forever to the man who tackled a second. That strange rumbling I felt in my gut around noon today (while in the midst of a garage sale, of all things!)....was my innards recalling that it was 56 years to the day since my Last Raid....Berlin....along with Fink's crew as bombardier....with over a thousand other aircraft in the skies. Amazing to still be alive and functioning after that and all that's happened since....thanks to all who covered my rear. Best wishes and cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 00:11:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:11:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] digest form.. References: <20010201182854.0EE99536C6@pairlist.net> <3A7B5FB7.2421175F@zoomnet.net> Message-ID: <00fd01c08e3f$14c4cea0$cdd14e0c@jack> Please unsuscribe.... Send only in digest form.. Thank you... Jack Turkel From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 03:32:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Victor Howard) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:32:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <004401c08e5b$0c80a720$2691623f@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C08E17.FC876EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone know of George Underwood's plane and crew, ditched in Channel on = Feb 22, 1944. All crew lost. My uncle was Charles Phipps, R.O. 360th = sqd. vhoward@technonet.com=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C08E17.FC876EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone know of George Underwood's plane = and crew,=20 ditched in Channel on Feb 22, 1944. All crew lost. My uncle was Charles = Phipps,=20 R.O. 360th sqd.
vhoward@technonet.com =
  
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C08E17.FC876EA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 04:09:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:09:23 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: <50.10f246e8.27ae2ff3@aol.com> --part1_50.10f246e8.27ae2ff3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone remember S/SGT. I have known Merlin Miller for about a year. He was with Hullar's crew. Miller was a tailgunner on the Vicous Virgin, OLD Squaw, and Lucious Lady I believe. Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.com --part1_50.10f246e8.27ae2ff3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone remember S/SGT.  I have known Merlin Miller for about a year. He
was with Hullar's crew. Miller was a  tailgunner on the Vicous Virgin, OLD
Squaw, and Lucious Lady I believe.
Terry Lucas Thor542086@aol.com --part1_50.10f246e8.27ae2ff3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 18:18:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:18:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dick Cheney Message-ID: <009401c08ed6$d4e81920$f80110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C08ED6.D3247020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know how many of you missed this, but it is well worth reading. The reason for military Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:13:15 -0500 >From the voice of Vice President-Elect Dick Cheney... On my way to work last week, I stopped behind a purple Geo Metro with my least favorite bumper sticker ever plastered across the back. It read: "It'll be a great day when schools have all the money they need and the Air Force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber." At that moment, I realized who the most undervalued and under = appreciated segment of society is. And it ain't teachers. Teachers, I believe, rank second on that list. Heading the list are the men and women of the forces, who, throughout history, have protected our country from the Hitler's and Stalin's - = they who would have had our white children marching to the school bus in jackboots and our minority children locked up in laboratories and labor camps. The US military -- the most powerful and influential group of people in the world, hands-down -- gets an awfully bad rap these days. Many = Americans seem to think that simply because the communist Soviet Union no longer exists, the world is as safe as Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood. This, of course, ignores three facts: (1) Dozens of countries have nuclear weapons that could kill millions of people with the turn of a key. (2) Leaders of several countries (e.g. North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Lebanon and perhaps China and Russia) would love to see the US = and its people blown to pieces and, most importantly (3) The US has the greatest collection of human, economic, natural and technological resources anywhere on Earth, making it the greatest natural target for military aggression. Though some would like to fashion the US of the 21st Century as a = flowery feel-good fantasy where war and violence are mere after thoughts of a time gone by, that can never be the case. As bad as our crime and drug problems are, we're still considered the jewel of the planet by the half = of the world that has yet to make its first phone call. In ancient Greece, the people of Athens were unparalleled world leaders in art, philosophy and technology. Their rivals in Sparta were not; = instead, the Spartans built massive, well-trained armies. When the two countries fought, who won? Sparta. And guess who lost their entire civilization because they didn't think it was important to build an appropriate army? Athens! Right now, the US has the best of Athens and Sparta: we are the most cultured and most well-defended country in the world. As we continue to lower our defenses by devaluing the military, we open ourselves wider = and wider to a takeover. A takeover of the US? Ridiculous, one might say. But why does it seem so unlikely? Because the power and protection of the US military has been so overwhelming in the last century that Americans have been free to enjoy a comfort level = unlike any in the world. We all take it for granted that we will never be invaded = by another country, but few other countries can afford to be so sure of themselves. It's not only Americans who can go to bed feeling safe. Children everywhere from Israel to England, from Brazil to Japan - know that, if their country is attacked, the US will be there to help. On TV, the military is often represented by stiff, buttoned-down generals or = the occasional drill sergeant who is accused of feeling up a female recruit. In reality, things are much different. The men and women of the armed = forces are, in most ways, just like everyone else: they are mechanics, pilots, cooks, photographers, engineers, secretaries and X-ray technicians. They work from 8 to 5 and then come home to their families. The one difference comes when the US or any of its allies is threatened by a foreign power. In that case, military people pack up and ship out, = off to fight -- and many times die -- so the rest of the country, including teachers, can continue their lives without interruption. Teachers mold young minds into intelligent, independent people, and they should be admired for the job they do; however, I don't know any = teachers who are required to catch bullets and swallow shrapnel if so ordered by the principal. So, old-fashioned as it may seem, I'm happy to give my taxes to the military and tell the tots and teachers to fire up the oven if they want = extra dough. Make muffins, cookies and candy and be happy you're allowed to = Because, as the old saying goes, if it wasn't for the US military, we'd all be speaking German now." "It is easy to take liberty for granted, when you have never had it = taken from you." Dick Cheney ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C08ED6.D3247020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Don't know how many of you = missed this,=20 but it is well worth reading.

 

The reason for military

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:13:15 -0500

From the voice of Vice President-Elect Dick Cheney...

On my way to work last week, I stopped behind a purple Geo Metro with = my

least favorite bumper sticker ever plastered across the back. It = read:

"It'll be a great day when schools have all the money they need and = the

Air Force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber."

At that moment, I realized who the most undervalued and under = appreciated

segment of society is. And it ain't teachers. Teachers, I believe, = rank

second on that list.

Heading the list are the men and women of the forces, who, = throughout

history, have protected our country from the Hitler's and Stalin's - = they

who would have had our white children marching to the school bus = in

jackboots and our minority children locked up in laboratories and = labor

camps.

The US military -- the most powerful and influential group of people = in

the world, hands-down -- gets an awfully bad rap these days. Many=20 Americans

seem to think that simply because the communist Soviet Union no = longer

exists, the world is as safe as Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood.

This, of course, ignores three facts:

(1) Dozens of countries have nuclear weapons that could kill millions = of

people with the turn of a key.

(2) Leaders of several countries (e.g. North Korea, Iraq, Iran,

Libya, Lebanon and perhaps China and Russia) would love to see the US = and

its people blown to pieces and, most importantly

(3) The US has the greatest collection of human, economic, = natural

and technological resources anywhere on Earth, making it the = greatest

natural target for military aggression.

Though some would like to fashion the US of the 21st Century as a = flowery

feel-good fantasy where war and violence are mere after thoughts of = a

time gone by, that can never be the case. As bad as our crime and = drug

problems are, we're still considered the jewel of the planet by the = half of=20 the

world that has yet to make its first phone call.

In ancient Greece, the people of Athens were unparalleled world = leaders

in art, philosophy and technology. Their rivals in Sparta were not;=20 instead,

the Spartans built massive, well-trained armies. When the two = countries

fought, who won? Sparta. And guess who lost their entire = civilization

because they didn't think it was important to build an appropriate = army?

Athens!

Right now, the US has the best of Athens and Sparta: we are the = most

cultured and most well-defended country in the world. As we continue = to

lower our defenses by devaluing the military, we open ourselves wider = and

wider to a takeover. A takeover of the US?

Ridiculous, one might say. But why does it seem so unlikely? Because = the

power and protection of the US military has been so overwhelming in = the

last century that Americans have been free to enjoy a comfort level = unlike=20 any

in the world. We all take it for granted that we will never be = invaded by

another country, but few other countries can afford to be so sure = of

themselves. It's not only Americans who can go to bed feeling = safe.

Children everywhere from Israel to England, from Brazil to Japan - = know

that, if their country is attacked, the US will be there to help. On = TV,

the military is often represented by stiff, buttoned-down generals or = the

occasional drill sergeant who is accused of feeling up a female = recruit.

In reality, things are much different. The men and women of the armed = forces

are, in most ways, just like everyone else: they are mechanics, = pilots,

cooks, photographers, engineers, secretaries and X-ray technicians. = They

work from 8 to 5 and then come home to their families.

The one difference comes when the US or any of its allies is = threatened

by a foreign power. In that case, military people pack up and ship = out, off=20 to

fight -- and many times die -- so the rest of the country, = including

teachers, can continue their lives without interruption.

Teachers mold young minds into intelligent, independent people, and = they

should be admired for the job they do; however, I don't know any = teachers

who are required to catch bullets and swallow shrapnel if so ordered = by

the principal.

So, old-fashioned as it may seem, I'm happy to give my taxes to = the

military and tell the tots and teachers to fire up the oven if they = want=20 extra

dough. Make muffins, cookies and candy and be happy you're allowed to = Because,

as the old saying goes, if it wasn't for the US military, we'd all = be

speaking German now."

"It is easy to take liberty for granted, when you have never had it = taken

from you."

Dick Cheney

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C08ED6.D3247020-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 21:10:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:10:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dick Cheney In-Reply-To: "Brian McGuire" 's message of Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:18:08 -0000 Message-ID: <5265-3A7DC563-3075@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> What was Dick Cheney saying in the 1960s when he was going through all his deferments? In July of 1963 when i reported in to the 2nd Air Division in Vietnam as the Public Affairs officer for the Air Force, one of the first persons I met was a young 2nd Lt. who had just lost his wife in childbirth and who had to leave his baby with relatives so that he could fulfill his military obligation. That was patriotism with a capital P. It is very easy to "talk the talk" but it takes guts to "walk the walk." Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 21:14:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:14:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Dick Cheney References: <5265-3A7DC563-3075@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <002301c08eef$7781d820$cb09f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Hal, Care to elaborate a little more on his deferments? This is the first I have heard of them. Seems like there is always a skeleton in the closet, doesn't it? gordy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Dick Cheney > What was Dick Cheney saying in the 1960s when he was going through all > his deferments? In July of 1963 when i reported in to the 2nd Air > Division in Vietnam as the Public Affairs officer for the Air Force, one > of the first persons I met was a young 2nd Lt. who had just lost his > wife in childbirth and who had to leave his baby with relatives so > that he could fulfill his military obligation. That was patriotism with > a capital P. It is very easy to "talk the talk" but it takes guts to > "walk the walk." Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 21:26:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:26:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour In-Reply-To: Bhandsr@aol.com's message of Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:38:14 EST Message-ID: <5267-3A7DC901-2013@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I was one of those fellows that went back for a second tour. There was a night and day difference between the two tours. The first tour it was the fighters that gave you the puckers and the second tour it was the flak. It was black and plentiful. I went to Berlin eight times and none of them could compare with Oschersleben, Merseburg or Oberpfaffenhofen. Would I volunteer again today...not only no but hell no. You do strange things when you are young. Always enjoy reading your messages. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 21:53:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:53:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Order of takeoff? Gas load? In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:49:37 -0500 Message-ID: <5264-3A7DCF5A-3772@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> What's your gas load was the question we got asked when we landed at another base in the wee hours of the morning. We were the PFF crew that came over to lead the mission. WE used to tell them "2800 gallons" and they knew we were going on a long mission deep in to Germany. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 22:01:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:01:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:57:25 -0500 Message-ID: <5265-3A7DD154-3133@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Lloyd Grant I fit all your categories, second tour, recalled to active duty in 1949, served in Vietnam in 1963 and retired in 1973. Why do you want that information? Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 23:04:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:04:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #147 - 6 msgs Message-ID: --part1_c4.f62d6c8.27af3a0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message #2 A lot of people remember the Kiel mission of June 14th, 1943 it was extremely rough, I now, I was there Abbott Smith 427th --part1_c4.f62d6c8.27af3a0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message #2

A lot of people remember the Kiel mission of June 14th, 1943 it was extremely
rough, I now, I was there

Abbott Smith
427th --part1_c4.f62d6c8.27af3a0f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 4 23:23:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:23:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #147 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <33.103fd390.27af3e60@aol.com> I didn't think our Group went to Berlin on February 3, 1944. The first time we bombed Berlin was March 6, 1944. We aborted the mission on March 3 that was to bomb Berlin. Am I wrong in thinking this? Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 5 08:17:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:17:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour References: <5265-3A7DD154-3133@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000901c08f4c$087d74e0$e8b34d0c@netzero> Hal, My father was a career officer in the Air Force. I know he served with the 303rd, but he told me he did two tours of combat. If so , the second must not have been with the same group as there is no record. After the war in Europe was over he was transferred to the Phillipines ( that's were I came on board) Later he was in the 303rd, but this time in B-47's. I have no records to go by so I am fishing for information. Incidently, it took one hell of alot of guts to get thru one tour, let alone re-up for another. I salute you. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour > Lloyd Grant I fit all > your categories, second tour, recalled to active duty in 1949, served > in Vietnam in 1963 and retired in 1973. Why do you want that > information? Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 6 17:46:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:46:15 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour Message-ID: Here's an interesting twist to this discussion and I heard this first hand from Joe Jameson, a waist Gunner with the 447th at Rattlesden. Joe's tour ended in Sptember of 1944. The Air Corps stated you could go home for 30 days if you reupped for another tour. So Joe and a buddy went back to the States thinking the war would be over by the end of the year and that most of the fighting was over. The Buldge changed all that and he ended up doing another tour in late 44, early 45. There was a bit of psychology associated with that and thought you might be interested. Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour >Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:38:14 EST > >Well, I'll tell ya, pardner, one tour was enough for this person, and my >hat's off forever to the man who tackled a second. That strange rumbling I >felt in my gut around noon today (while in the midst of a garage sale, of >all things!)....was my innards recalling that it was 56 years to the day >since my Last Raid....Berlin....along with Fink's crew as >bombardier....with >over a thousand other aircraft in the skies. Amazing to still be alive and >functioning after that and all that's happened since....thanks to all who >covered my rear. Best wishes and cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 7 14:57:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:57:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour Message-ID: Talk about a dealer's advantage! 35 missions for 30 days leave....really staggering, but as they say, all's fair in love and war (or whatever!) Rumor had it back then that your second tour would be in another theater. Maybe there was some "safety" in returning to familiar ground. Thanks for the story....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 7 17:29:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:29:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two Missions Message-ID: <004201c0912b$81fdf7a0$469a46c6@fory> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C090F9.3596B6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kuykendall talked his crew into checking out for lead position to only = do 30 instead of 35 missions. We readily agreed and were lucky enough to = complete the 30. I was supposed to go to Guam on B-29's but Truman put a stop to that. My son, who is also a retired Major, showed more guts . He did two tours = in Vietnam flying the "Puff the Magic Dragon" ship. "Buzz" Barton ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C090F9.3596B6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kuykendall talked his crew into = checking out for=20 lead position to only do 30 instead of 35 missions. We readily agreed = and were=20 lucky enough to complete the 30.
I was supposed to go to Guam on B-29's = but=20 Truman put a stop to that.
My son, who is also a retired Major, = showed more=20 guts . He did two tours in Vietnam flying the "Puff the Magic Dragon"=20 ship.      "Buzz" = Barton
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C090F9.3596B6E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 7 18:35:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:35:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New landing gear Message-ID: <001601c09134$bf71b140$50914d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0910A.D49C7DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone heard from Hal Susskind? How's he doing? ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0910A.D49C7DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone heard from Hal = Susskind?  How's he=20 doing?
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0910A.D49C7DE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 7 21:07:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:07:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] New landing gear plus a new hip. In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:35:26 -0500 Message-ID: <581-3A81B929-167@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Lloyd Thank you very much for inquiring about me. I've been remiss in answering a lot of questons but i hope to catch up on all my mail in the near future. I had a new hip put in on March 2, 2000. Unfortunately it proved to be defective but I only found out about it In December of 2000 when the manufacturer issued a recall for the prosthesis. Now I'm scheduled for another hip replacement on February 21st. It has been a painful year. Thanks for all your well wishes. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 7 21:27:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:27:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] After the first tour and how they twisted our arms to In-Reply-To: Bhandsr@aol.com's message of Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:57:11 EST Message-ID: <21604-3A81BDA6-906@storefull-245.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I joined the 303rd inNovember of '43 when the tour was 25. In March of '44 our crew was assigned to the PFF pool with the 305th at Chelveston. We had about 18 missions then. Soon our tour was upped to 30 but we received credit for one mission and the tour was 29 for me. I finished my 29 on the morning of D-Day. I flew an extra mission in the afternoon we landed back at Chelveston and I packed my clothes and trucked over to Molesworth to get my orders to go home whereupon Col. Cole said to me you have to fly 35 missions. To get orders to go home I had to volunteer to come back for another tour. Which I did. I returned in September of "44 to start my second tour. I stayed until the end of the war in May of "45. And accompanied what was left of the 303rd to Casabranca. I was stationed in Dakar, Africa. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 01:46:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:46:16 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK Message-ID: <001201c09170$ed88bce0$c05b073e@n0i6c5> My name is Yvonne Barnett from the UK. (Better known to my friends as Moofy). I have been married to my husband Pete for 26 yrs, and we have four grown up children, and one 7 yr old granddaughter. Having taken an interest in the members of 'The Mighty Eighth' in 1994, I have made many wonderful friends of both Bomber and Fighter veterans. In fact it was some of these friends who started me off with a collection of books related to 'The Mighty Eighth'. My library is growing nicely, and when ever I can, I try to help relatives of members of the 8th AF based over here in WW2, to find where their late fathers, grandfathers, uncles, were based, and the aircraft they flew with, names of crew members they flew with etc. A part from doing look up's in my books, I also search the Bomber and Fighter Group websites, so I can point them in the right direction. Hence my frequent visits to the Heavy Bombers Website, and all the different Group websites I can reach from there. I love to read through the message boards, and take an interest in what people post. (and of course help out if I can). Well I think I have chatted on enough, and just want to say 'Hi' to you all. Moofy (Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 06:13:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:13:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK References: <001201c09170$ed88bce0$c05b073e@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <000701c09196$4c547820$e71b4e0c@netzero> Moofy, by birth I am one half Texan and the other half English. I have considerable respect for the men in the RAF who often seem not to get the respect to which they are due. These men had no limit to the number of missions they had to fly. They held the line with tremendous sacrifice and dedication before and after the "Yanks" got there. My dad came early in the war when casualties were at there highest for the American bomber crews, but there was an end for him, if he managed to get through 25 missions, he could go home. The gallant men who crewed the RAF planes were "home". I think we also owe them a debt of gratitude. Thank you for your kind remarks, but please never forget to thank the men and women of the RAF for their sacrifice and courage.Regards, L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:46 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK > My name is Yvonne Barnett from the UK. (Better known to my friends as > Moofy). I have been married to my husband Pete for 26 yrs, and we have four > grown up children, and one 7 yr old granddaughter. > Having taken an interest in the members of 'The Mighty Eighth' in 1994, I > have made many wonderful friends of both Bomber and Fighter veterans. In > fact it was some of these friends who started me off with a collection of > books related to 'The Mighty Eighth'. My library is growing nicely, and > when ever I can, I try to help relatives of members of the 8th AF based over > here in WW2, to find where their late fathers, grandfathers, uncles, were > based, and the aircraft they flew with, names of crew members they flew with > etc. > A part from doing look up's in my books, I also search the Bomber and > Fighter Group websites, so I can point them in the right direction. Hence > my frequent visits to the Heavy Bombers Website, and all the different Group > websites I can reach from there. I love to read through the message boards, > and take an interest in what people post. (and of course help out if I > can). > Well I think I have chatted on enough, and just want to say 'Hi' to you all. > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 11:49:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:49:01 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Lloyd Message-ID: <000901c091c5$2218a840$1eac7ad5@n0i6c5> Thank you Lloyd, for your words of thought on our RAF. I always think that the famous words spoken by Churchill ''Never in the field of Human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few !" says it all, and I am truly aware of the debt of gratitude we owe to all our Servicemen and Women, who gave their sacrifice and courage they showed in those dark years, for us to live in Freedom, also to our Allies who fought at our sides, to rid the world of those who would destroy the freedom we now have. My dad served with the RAF from 1937 until 1946, he was stationed with the 15 SQDN at Cosford, I believe as an Aircraft Mechanic. Dad never spoke much (or I never heard him speak much), of his RAF years. I do know that he was in France for the Dunkirk Landings. Having sent for his Service Records, I was quite disappointed, as they do not give much information. Dad was a member of our British Legion, and when he died his funeral was attended by many of his friends who were veterans of WW2. Lloyd, do you know where your 'English' part of your family originated from over here ? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 14:12:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:12:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? Message-ID: <3A826303.29093.6AB1C6@localhost> Just out of curiosity, when does the 303rdBGA membership directory come out? I thought that it would come about the same time as the Feb newsletter, but that came over a week ago, so I was wondering whether anyone has received it yet. I joined about a year ago, so I haven't quite learned the schedule yet, but wanted to make sure I didn't miss the directory. Thanks. Can't wait for the CDROM also. I guess it's not supposed to be shipped for another week or so (according to the announcement on the Guest Comments page), but I'm still watching my mailbox every day, in case it comes out early. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 15:01:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:01:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two Missions Message-ID: <9.10bd996f.27b40ecd@aol.com> Nice to see Roger Kuykendall's name mentioned....barracksmate and every bit a gentleman with a keen sense of humor. (Are you listening from up there, Roger?) Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 17:31:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:31:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Lloyd References: <000901c091c5$2218a840$1eac7ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <000901c091f4$f8514fa0$57184e0c@netzero> My mother was from Cambridge at the time she met my father, Moofy. Both my parents are deceased, but my mothers' sister still lives in Cambridge. I live in Lakeland, Fl. about 60 miles West of Disney World. My father never spoke much about his war years either. Unfortunately, that leaves alot of blank spots. I am very grateful to the men who put this web site together and to the many members who have been helping to put a picture around a scant few dots. Thank you for your reply. Cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 6:49 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Lloyd > Thank you Lloyd, for your words of thought on our RAF. I always think > that the famous words spoken by Churchill ''Never in the field of Human > conflict was so much owed by so many to so few !" says it all, and I am > truly aware of the debt of gratitude we owe to all our Servicemen and > Women, who gave their sacrifice and courage they showed in those dark years, > for us to live in Freedom, also to our Allies who fought at our sides, to > rid the world of those who would destroy the freedom we now have. > > My dad served with the RAF from 1937 until 1946, he was stationed with the > 15 SQDN at Cosford, I believe as an Aircraft Mechanic. Dad never spoke much > (or I never heard him speak much), of his RAF years. I do know that he was > in France for the Dunkirk Landings. > > Having sent for his Service Records, I was quite disappointed, as they do > not give much information. Dad was a member of our British Legion, and when > he died his funeral was attended by many of his friends who were veterans of > WW2. > > Lloyd, do you know where your 'English' part of your family originated from > over here ? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 20:53:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:53:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK Message-ID: <6f.10e64aac.27b46156@aol.com> I agree with you L. Grant. Winston Churchill said it best when he said," Never in the course of human events has so many owed so much to so few as the people of England owe to the Royal Air Force. Perhaps he should have included the people of the world. Best Wishes, Jack Reenter From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 20:55:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:55:21 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thank you Lloyd Message-ID: <25.110c776d.27b461b9@aol.com> bravo to the brits. amen to llod's comments. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 21:34:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:34:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK Message-ID: good to have interested persons as you who can instill in others an interest in keeping this most worthy assn's. mission actively respected and continuing as relates to our world liberties. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 21:34:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:34:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy (Yvonne)UK Message-ID: <7e.109b9276.27b46aea@aol.com> amen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 22:29:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:29:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? In-Reply-To: "Bill Jones" 's message of Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:12:35 -0500 Message-ID: <16333-3A831DD0-2565@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I have put out every directory since 1985. The last one I put out was in 1999. Normally we put one out evry two years.. I don't know of any plans to put out an 2001 issue. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 22:36:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:36:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? In-Reply-To: <16333-3A831DD0-2565@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Jones" 's message of Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:12:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3A82BD19.30845.CA57A2@localhost> > > I have put out every directory since 1985. The last one I put out was in > 1999. Normally we put one out evry two years.. I don't know of any > plans to put out an 2001 issue. Hal Susskind I have referred that question to Ed Miller and Dennis Smith. Neither are on this list. I'll relay their response when I get it. The CD will start shipping about the 15th. It need to be shipped from NY to OK via FedEX, which should happen within a few days. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 23:02:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:02:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? In-Reply-To: <16333-3A831DD0-2565@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: "Bill Jones" 's message of Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:12:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3A82DF38.5891.24FF678@localhost> > I have put out every directory since 1985. The last one I put out was in > 1999. Normally we put one out evry two years.. I don't know of any > plans to put out an 2001 issue. Hal Susskind I guess I'm confused then. When the letter came last fall asking for membership dues, there was a box to check to pay a bit more to receive the directory, which I did. I thought it said it came out in Feb, but I may have mis-read it. Perhaps not enough people checked the box to make it worthwhile to print one, or perhaps I didn't understand what I was checking, which is likely. At least I know my copy didn't get lost in the mail. Thanks ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 23:07:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:07:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? In-Reply-To: <3A82DF38.5891.24FF678@localhost> References: <16333-3A831DD0-2565@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3A82C456.6670.E6A1E6@localhost> Bill, We'll get this figured out for you. I'll send this on to Ed and Dennis also. > > I have put out every directory since 1985. The last one I put out was in > > 1999. Normally we put one out evry two years.. I don't know of any > > plans to put out an 2001 issue. Hal Susskind > > I guess I'm confused then. When the letter came last fall asking for membership dues, > there was a box to check to pay a bit more to receive the directory, which I did. I > thought it said it came out in Feb, but I may have mis-read it. Perhaps not enough > people checked the box to make it worthwhile to print one, or perhaps I didn't > understand what I was checking, which is likely. At least I know my copy didn't get > lost in the mail. > Thanks > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 8 23:20:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:20:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? Message-ID: I thought the same thing as Bill; seems like it was an extra $10 to go = towards the Directory fund. Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 00:19:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:19:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Questions Message-ID: <001e01c0922e$055b6300$6d8f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C09204.18224F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the passage of time and the toll it exacts, I want to commend the = intelligence and commitment of the veterans who respond with acuity, = understanding, and generosity to the questions and inquiries often posed = by younger members of this forum. I will speak for myself for the = understanding of all , and that is that I have difficulty remembering = where I was , what I did, why I did it, and when exactly certain events = took place over the course of my life. (Grin if you want to). The point is , THANK YOU!, gentlemen. Thank you. Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C09204.18224F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given the passage of time and the toll = it exacts, I=20 want to commend the intelligence and commitment of the veterans who = respond with=20 acuity, understanding, and generosity to the questions and inquiries = often posed=20 by younger members of this forum.  I will speak for myself for the=20 understanding of all , and that is that I have difficulty remembering = where I=20 was , what I did, why I did it, and when exactly certain events took = place over=20 the course of my life. (Grin if you want to).
The point is , THANK YOU!, = gentlemen.  Thank=20 you.  Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C09204.18224F00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 02:13:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dyle Davidson) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:13:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] A True Story---I like it Message-ID: <1783-3A835247-893@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-22660-482 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a PanAm 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747 (call sign "Speedbird 206") after landing: Speedbird 206: "Top of the morning Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the active runway." Ground: "Guten morgen! You will taxi to your gate!" The big British Airways 747 pulled onto the main taxi way and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." Ground: "Speedbird 206, have you never flown to Frankfurt before?!?" Speedbird 206 (cooly): "Yes, I have, in 1944. In another type of Boeing, but I didn't stop." As told by Capt. Biggles----------DD --WebTV-Mail-22660-482 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-22660-482-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 03:42:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:42:24 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:msg # 6 from LLoyd Grant Feb.8th 303rd talk Message-ID: --part1_da.217f0c8.27b4c120_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note..I had done 38 combat missions from July of 43 to March of 44, before they credited me with the 25 combat missions before you would be sent home. I went home and then got sent back to the 303rd BG. I guess they wanted some of us to go back and do it right the second time?, who knows. A frequent problem I had was that on the 25 club page and other documents they were always listing my name as William?. It's Willard... too bad they didn't have spell check back in those days, though you always had some that just didn't pay attention. Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron Lt.Col. USAF Ret. --part1_da.217f0c8.27b4c120_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note..I had done 38 combat missions from July of 43 to March of 44,
before they credited me with the 25 combat missions before you would be sent
home. I went home and then got sent back to the 303rd BG. I guess they wanted
some of us to go back and do it right the second time?, who knows. A frequent
problem I had was that on the 25 club page and other documents they were
always listing my name as William?. It's Willard... too bad they didn't have
spell check back in those days, though you always had some that just didn't
pay attention.
Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron
Lt.Col. USAF Ret. --part1_da.217f0c8.27b4c120_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 04:51:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:51:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:msg # 6 from LLoyd Grant Feb.8th 303rd talk References: Message-ID: <000901c09253$fc1131a0$fa8f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0922A.1155EEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Col. Bergeron, Thank you for your reply. It is quite obvious that = men with combat experience could help save lives and at the same time = bring about more effective results. My question with regard to 2nd = tours is at first a tribute to the courage and dedication of men such as = yourself, and second to try to retrace the career of my father who I = believe also flew a 2nd tour and ultimately made a career of the Air = Force. My dad finished his first tour of 25 missions in May of 1943. = In 1951 he was flying in B-47s again with the 303rd BG. The years in = between are the ones I am trying to fill in. The part about Casablanca = is just pure curiosity. It seems like a long way out of the way to = decommission a group, especially given the prevailing sentiment with = respect to our Russian allies at the time. No one has replied to this = aspect of my question. Perhaps it is out of bounds( inwhich case I will = not pursue it), or , it is just unworthy of comment. I sincerely = appreciate your reply and hope you will accept my best wishes. LLoyd = Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Shaddoe2@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:42 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:msg # 6 from LLoyd Grant Feb.8th 303rd talk Just a note..I had done 38 combat missions from July of 43 to March of = 44,=20 before they credited me with the 25 combat missions before you would = be sent=20 home. I went home and then got sent back to the 303rd BG. I guess they = wanted=20 some of us to go back and do it right the second time?, who knows. A = frequent=20 problem I had was that on the 25 club page and other documents they = were=20 always listing my name as William?. It's Willard... too bad they = didn't have=20 spell check back in those days, though you always had some that just = didn't=20 pay attention.=20 Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron=20 Lt.Col. USAF Ret.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0922A.1155EEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Col. Bergeron, Thank you for your = reply. =20 It is quite obvious that men with combat experience could help save = lives and at=20 the same time bring about more effective results.  My = question  with=20 regard to 2nd tours is at first a tribute to the courage and dedication = of men=20 such as yourself,  and second to try to retrace the career of my = father who=20 I believe also flew a 2nd tour and ultimately made a career of the Air=20 Force.  My dad finished his first tour of 25 missions in May of = 1943. =20 In 1951 he was flying in B-47s again with the 303rd BG. The years in = between are=20 the ones I am trying to fill in.  The part about Casablanca is just = pure=20 curiosity.  It seems like a long way out of the way to decommission = a=20 group, especially given the prevailing sentiment with respect to our = Russian=20 allies at the time.  No one has replied to this aspect of my=20 question.  Perhaps it is out of bounds( inwhich case I will not = pursue it),=20 or , it is just unworthy of comment.  I sincerely appreciate your = reply and=20 hope you will accept my best wishes.  LLoyd Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Shaddoe2@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, February 08, = 2001 10:42=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:msg # = 6 from=20 LLoyd Grant Feb.8th 303rd talk

Just a = note..I had done=20 38 combat missions from July of 43 to March of 44,
before they = credited me=20 with the 25 combat missions before you would be sent
home. I went = home and=20 then got sent back to the 303rd BG. I guess they wanted
some of us = to go=20 back and do it right the second time?, who knows. A frequent =
problem I had=20 was that on the 25 club page and other documents they were
always = listing=20 my name as William?. It's Willard... too bad they didn't have =
spell check=20 back in those days, though you always had some that just didn't =
pay=20 attention.
Willard (Bill) H. Bergeron
Lt.Col. USAF Ret. = ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0922A.1155EEE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 04:53:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:53:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A True Story---I like it References: <1783-3A835247-893@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001601c09254$4712daa0$fa8f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0922A.5B41E220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thumbs up, Dyle, and Roger that. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dyle Davidson=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] A True Story---I like it The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a PanAm 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747 (call sign "Speedbird 206") after landing: Speedbird 206: "Top of the morning Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of = the active runway." Ground: "Guten morgen! You will taxi to your gate!" The big British Airways 747 pulled onto the main taxi way and slowed = to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." Ground: "Speedbird 206, have you never flown to Frankfurt before?!?" Speedbird 206 (cooly): "Yes, I have, in 1944. In another type of = Boeing, but I didn't stop." As told by Capt. Biggles----------DD -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- GOD BLESS AMERICA !=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0922A.5B41E220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thumbs up, Dyle, and Roger = that.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dyle = Davidson=20
Sent: Thursday, February 08, = 2001 9:13=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] A True = Story---I=20 like it


The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are = a=20 short-tempered
lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate = parking=20 location but
how to get there without any assistance from them. So = it was=20 with some
amusement that we (a PanAm 747) listened to the following = exchange
between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747 = (call=20 sign
"Speedbird 206") after landing:
Speedbird 206: "Top of the = morning=20 Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the
active runway."
Ground: = "Guten=20 morgen! You will taxi to your gate!"
The big British Airways 747 = pulled=20 onto the main taxi way and slowed to
a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, = do you=20 not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment = ground,=20 I'm looking up our gate
location now."
Ground: "Speedbird 206, = have you=20 never flown to Frankfurt before?!?"
Speedbird 206 (cooly): "Yes, I = have, in=20 1944. In another type of Boeing,
but I didn't stop."

As told = by=20 Capt. Biggles----------DD

GOD BLESS AMERICA ! ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0922A.5B41E220-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 14:50:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:50:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Fox Message-ID: Do any of you veterans have any stories about you visits to The Fox pub just south of Molesworth? I was there a couple of years ago and it was like stepping back in time. The tough urinals looked like they had been left over from the war, and the lemonade shanties and steak and kidney pie wasn't too bad either. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 17:15:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:15:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE Message-ID: <002a01c092bb$f8a55ba0$25bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C09289.ACC461E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a long-winded one --thought some of you guys might get a charge = out of Moofy's answer.-- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Moofy=20 To: Maurice Paulk=20 Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 4:51 PM Subject: Re: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE Dear Maurice, Thank you so much for sharing with me some of your memories of your = friend's in Dudley. Sounds like they looked after you 'good and = proper' !! Must say it was with a sigh of relief when you mentioned = Harold's sisters 'feather bed, that you went on to assure me 'Harold's = sister was not in it' !! . Funny thing is Maurice, although I was born in 1941, as a child I still = remember my mum, warming my bed with a heated brick when I was small. = (takes along time for things to change in dear ol England !). Also, I = seem to remember green & black tea. =20 They obviously enjoyed your friendship too, and probably appreciated how = far you would travel to spend time with them. Wonder how many folk can boast of living in a 'cop shop', and being = free to come and go of their own free will !! and be given rides in a = Black Mariah.......Still, I am sure they all appreciated that you were = far from your home Maurice, and you were over here with your fellow = countrymen, to help rid the world of that tyrant, who had been = threatening the lives and freedom of the English and many other = countries for far too long. =20 Funny, but in 1955/56 my mum and dad befriended a young GI, who was = based at Burtonwood. His name was Don Lee Carroll and he came from = Liberal, Kansas. Like you, Don would visit our family every few weeks. = Sometimes Don would fetch his buddy a young GI named John. My mum would = always make them 'Chip Butties', and both Don and John became 'addicted = to them'.=20 =20 Don used to fetch cigarettes for my mum and dad, I think they were = called 'Lucky Strike' ? Another thing we were never to forget Don = for, was the Christmas Eve, he called in to wish my family a 'Happy = Christmas'. My dad was working nights at the time, and Don gave my mum = a bottle of 'Sloanes Gin'. After Don left to 'hit the town', my mum and our elderly neighbour Mrs. = Birch, sat and drank this bottle of 'Sloanes Gin' between them. At the = best of time, my mum and Mrs. Birch never drank much alcohol, so you = can imagine the 'hang over' they both had the following morning !! LOL =20 I well remember the next time Don appeared, and heard how my mum and our = neighbour had got 'stoned' on the Sloanes Gin, Don laughed so much, that = my mum chased him round the house with a broomstick !! When the time = came for Don to return home to the States, our family were devastated, = as it was like losing one of our family. =20 To be honest Maurice, I think on the whole, the American and English = people, especially during the war years, made some lasting friendships, = and I really do enjoy hearing about them. =20 Once again, thank you for sharing. Warmest Regards to you, Moofy (Yvonne)UK =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: moofy@talk21.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:02 PM Subject: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE The English people were very good to this Yank while spending 33 = months on your island home. While on a pass in Dudley, Worcestershire, a = friend and I were in a coffee shop [Hot milk and chicory--it was good] = not as good as "Ma" Cissy Parkes [2 Blowers Green Crescent] tea blend. = -- 1 lb green to 2 lb black. She made here tea strong and I still have a = mug almost every night -- I use Darjeeling or Earl Grey. At the coffee = shop I meet Harold her son.[along with about 5 girls] I slept in = Harold's sister's feather bed, [[BY THE WAY -she wasn't in it!!!] had = breakfast in bed every Sunday and during the winter a hot brick or a = crockery foot warmer at the foot of the bed when I came in about 11pm = --The door was always unlocked for me. I tried to explain that I was fed = good on base - but I know that I have eaten the last egg, the last glass = of milk or piece of "very dear" meat. Although I was no "kid" [few = months over 21 when I enlisted in April of '42. --NOW you know my age.] = That was my home away from home every two weeks [a fortnight that is] . I was a Sgt with the 444th Sub-Depot in the A/C Supply with the 303rd = at Molesworth. I took a bus from Northampton through Coventry to = Birmingham - the Tipton Bus #25 to Dudley or sometimes a train from = Northhampton. This explains my Friday night 11-12 PM arrival. For the = first 2 months or so I spent my nights sleeping in the womens section = [They said it was cleaner and I wouldn't be disturbed] of the local = Constubulary. [ cop shop] Many is the night that one of the Bobbies = shared his lunch with me They always brought an extra mattress for me = and one night I took a ride in the Black Mariah [ma-rye-a- I called it = by the American name of 'Paddy wagon'] The chief ask me if I had sent = any pictures home - my answere being no ,he immediately called his = photographer [midnight by goodness!!!] and took some pictures. When they = were developed in 2 weeks I sent them home with a request to send a = carton of KOOL cigarettes - that is all he would take for pay. This is a long winded epistle and once again I have run off at the = finger tips. The moral of this letter is-- you folks will always be remembered by = me. [[[hope there are not too many mistakes - This "infernal machine" = doesn't spell worth a hoot.]]] My town is 15 miles west of Grand Island and 127 miles east of North = Platte in the lowest bend of the Platte River - born and raised here. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 -----a "city" of about 1200=20 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C09289.ACC461E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a long-winded one --thought = some of you=20 guys might get a charge out of Moofy's answer.--
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Moofy =
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE

Dear Maurice,
Thank you so much for sharing with me = some of your=20 memories of your friend's  in Dudley.    Sounds like = they=20 looked after you 'good and proper' !!   Must say it was with a = sigh of=20 relief when you mentioned Harold's sisters 'feather bed, that you went = on to=20 assure me 'Harold's sister was not in it' !!  <big grin=20 !>.
Funny thing is Maurice, although I was = born in=20 1941, as a child I still remember my mum, warming my bed with a heated = brick=20 when I was small.  (takes along time for things to change in dear = ol=20 England !).  Also, I seem to remember green & black = tea.
 
They obviously enjoyed your friendship = too, and=20 probably appreciated how far you would travel to spend time with=20 them.
Wonder how many folk  can boast of = living in a=20 'cop shop', and being free to come and go of their own free = will !! =20 and be given rides in a Black Mariah.......Still, I am sure they all = appreciated=20 that you were far from your home Maurice, and you were over  here = with your=20 fellow countrymen,  to help rid  the world of that = tyrant, who=20 had been threatening the lives and freedom of the English and many = other=20 countries for far too long.
 
Funny, but in 1955/56 my mum and dad = befriended a=20 young GI, who was based at Burtonwood.  His name was Don Lee = Carroll and he=20 came from Liberal, Kansas.  Like you, Don would visit our family = every few=20 weeks.  Sometimes Don would fetch his buddy a young GI named = John.  My=20 mum would always  make them 'Chip Butties', and both Don and John = became=20 'addicted to them'. 
 
Don used to fetch cigarettes for my mum = and dad, I=20 think they were called 'Lucky Strike' ?   Another thing we = were never=20 to forget  Don for, was the Christmas Eve, he called in to wish my = family a=20 'Happy Christmas'.  My dad was working nights at the time, and Don = gave my=20 mum a bottle of 'Sloanes Gin'.
After Don left to 'hit the town', my = mum and our=20 elderly neighbour Mrs. Birch, sat and drank this bottle of 'Sloanes Gin' = between=20 them.  At the best of time, my mum and Mrs. Birch  never drank = much=20 alcohol,  so you can imagine the 'hang over' they both had the = following=20 morning !! LOL
 
I well remember the next time Don = appeared, and=20 heard how my mum and our neighbour had got 'stoned' on the Sloanes Gin, = Don=20 laughed so much, that my mum chased him round the house with a = broomstick=20 !!  When the time came for Don to return home to the States, our = family=20 were devastated, as it was like losing one of our family.
 
To be honest Maurice, I think on the = whole, the=20 American and English people, especially during the war years, made some = lasting=20 friendships, and I really do enjoy hearing about them.
 
Once again, thank you for = sharing.
Warmest Regards to you,
Moofy (Yvonne)UK
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Thursday, February 08, = 2001 9:02=20 PM
Subject: THE ENGLISH = PEOPLE

The English people were very = good  to this=20 Yank while spending 33 months on your island home. While on a pass in = Dudley,=20 Worcestershire, a friend and I were in a coffee shop [Hot milk = and=20 chicory--it was good] not as good as "Ma" Cissy Parkes [2 Blowers = Green=20 Crescent] tea blend. -- 1 lb green to 2 lb black. She made here tea = strong and=20 I still have a mug almost every night -- I use Darjeeling or Earl = Grey. At the=20 coffee shop I meet  Harold her son.[along with about 5 = girls] I=20 slept in Harold's sister's  feather bed, [[BY THE WAY -she wasn't = in=20 it!!!] had breakfast in bed every Sunday and  during the = winter a=20 hot brick or a crockery foot warmer at the foot  of the bed when = I came=20 in about 11pm --The door was always unlocked for me. I tried to = explain=20 that I was fed good on base - but I know that I have eaten the last = egg, the=20 last glass of milk or piece of "very dear" meat. Although I was no = "kid" [few=20 months over 21 when I enlisted in April of '42. --NOW you know my = age.]=20 That was my home away from home = every two weeks=20 [a fortnight that is] .
 
I was a Sgt with the 444th Sub-Depot = in the A/C=20 Supply with the 303rd at Molesworth. I took a bus from Northampton = through=20 Coventry to Birmingham - the Tipton Bus #25 to Dudley or sometimes a = train=20 from Northhampton. This explains my Friday night 11-12 PM arrival. For = the=20 first 2 months or so I spent my nights sleeping in the womens section = [They=20 said it was cleaner and I wouldn't be disturbed] of the local = Constubulary. [=20 cop shop] Many is the night that one of the Bobbies shared his lunch = with=20 me  They always brought an extra mattress for me and one night I = took a=20 ride in the Black Mariah [ma-rye-a- I called it by the American name = of 'Paddy=20 wagon'] The chief ask me if I had sent any pictures home - my answere = being no=20 ,he immediately called his photographer [midnight by goodness!!!] and = took=20 some pictures. When they were developed in 2 weeks I sent them home = with a=20 request to send a carton of KOOL cigarettes - that is all he would = take for=20 pay.
 
This is a long winded epistle and = once again I=20 have run off at the finger tips.
The moral of this letter is-- = you=20 folks will always be remembered by me.
 
[[[hope there are not too many = mistakes - This=20 "infernal machine" doesn't spell worth  a hoot.]]]
 
 My town is 15 miles west of = Grand Island=20 and 127 miles east of North Platte in the lowest bend of the Platte = River -=20 born and raised here.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE = -68883-9164 =20 -----a "city" of about 1200 =
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY=20 LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when I arrive -
MOST when I=20 leave
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C09289.ACC461E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 13:29:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ed miller) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:29:07 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? References: <16333-3A831DD0-2565@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <3A82C456.6670.E6A1E6@localhost> Message-ID: <001d01c0929c$47d70040$d62c473f@e9t2l3> The plans are to print a directory in the Spring--We still have a few of the 1999 directories available but they are going fast--right Dennis. We are still receiving Benefactor Donations -- some of which included a mark indicating they wanted a new directory and sent in their $10.00. As soon as we get the CD/ROM disk distributed, we will turn our attention to printing up a new directory. Hal--I suspect that you are not too interested in tackling another one at this stage of your "bad hip." We will be talking with you. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "ed miller" ; Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] When does membership directory come out? > Bill, > We'll get this figured out for you. I'll send this on to Ed and Dennis > also. > > > > I have put out every directory since 1985. The last one I put out was in > > > 1999. Normally we put one out evry two years.. I don't know of any > > > plans to put out an 2001 issue. Hal Susskind > > > > I guess I'm confused then. When the letter came last fall asking for membership dues, > > there was a box to check to pay a bit more to receive the directory, which I did. I > > thought it said it came out in Feb, but I may have mis-read it. Perhaps not enough > > people checked the box to make it worthwhile to print one, or perhaps I didn't > > understand what I was checking, which is likely. At least I know my copy didn't get > > lost in the mail. > > Thanks > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 9 19:56:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 13:56:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE Message-ID: I have several friends in the UK made afer the war Moofy - at places like Bassingbourn, Molesworth, Chevelston, Grafton Underwood (Quentin Bland - a hell of a guy), Martlesham Heath, Bodney, Sudbury, Duxford, Rattlesden, and Rackheath! I don't care if you served in WWII or just have an interest in it, people who share the same interest will go out of their way to help you, either here or in the US. And Maurice - I too have several friends in Dudley - the former Mayor, Ian Brough, the economic development director. Did you visit the castle during your visit. Another freind owns the Rolls Royce dealership and picked us up in a Bentley. He said most English cars won't even get close to it because they are afraid of hitting it and being liable! Ha! Did you visit the Stafordshire crystal facility. That damn lead crystal set off every airport security device coming back to the States! Anyway, Moofy, The men who served with the Eighth and RAF, and all those who revere what they did are the best lot of people with which I have ever been associated! Kevin M. Pearson >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:15:57 -0600 > >This is a long-winded one --thought some of you guys might get a charge out >of Moofy's answer.-- >----- Original Message ----- >From: Moofy >To: Maurice Paulk >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 4:51 PM >Subject: Re: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE > > >Dear Maurice, >Thank you so much for sharing with me some of your memories of your >friend's in Dudley. Sounds like they looked after you 'good and proper' >!! Must say it was with a sigh of relief when you mentioned Harold's >sisters 'feather bed, that you went on to assure me 'Harold's sister was >not in it' !! . >Funny thing is Maurice, although I was born in 1941, as a child I still >remember my mum, warming my bed with a heated brick when I was small. >(takes along time for things to change in dear ol England !). Also, I seem >to remember green & black tea. > >They obviously enjoyed your friendship too, and probably appreciated how >far you would travel to spend time with them. >Wonder how many folk can boast of living in a 'cop shop', and being free >to come and go of their own free will !! and be given rides in a Black >Mariah.......Still, I am sure they all appreciated that you were far from >your home Maurice, and you were over here with your fellow countrymen, to >help rid the world of that tyrant, who had been threatening the lives and >freedom of the English and many other countries for far too long. > >Funny, but in 1955/56 my mum and dad befriended a young GI, who was based >at Burtonwood. His name was Don Lee Carroll and he came from Liberal, >Kansas. Like you, Don would visit our family every few weeks. Sometimes >Don would fetch his buddy a young GI named John. My mum would always make >them 'Chip Butties', and both Don and John became 'addicted to them'. > >Don used to fetch cigarettes for my mum and dad, I think they were called >'Lucky Strike' ? Another thing we were never to forget Don for, was the >Christmas Eve, he called in to wish my family a 'Happy Christmas'. My dad >was working nights at the time, and Don gave my mum a bottle of 'Sloanes >Gin'. >After Don left to 'hit the town', my mum and our elderly neighbour Mrs. >Birch, sat and drank this bottle of 'Sloanes Gin' between them. At the >best of time, my mum and Mrs. Birch never drank much alcohol, so you can >imagine the 'hang over' they both had the following morning !! LOL > >I well remember the next time Don appeared, and heard how my mum and our >neighbour had got 'stoned' on the Sloanes Gin, Don laughed so much, that my >mum chased him round the house with a broomstick !! When the time came for >Don to return home to the States, our family were devastated, as it was >like losing one of our family. > >To be honest Maurice, I think on the whole, the American and English >people, especially during the war years, made some lasting friendships, and >I really do enjoy hearing about them. > >Once again, thank you for sharing. >Warmest Regards to you, >Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Paulk > To: moofy@talk21.com > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:02 PM > Subject: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE > > > The English people were very good to this Yank while spending 33 months >on your island home. While on a pass in Dudley, Worcestershire, a friend >and I were in a coffee shop [Hot milk and chicory--it was good] not as good >as "Ma" Cissy Parkes [2 Blowers Green Crescent] tea blend. -- 1 lb green to >2 lb black. She made here tea strong and I still have a mug almost every >night -- I use Darjeeling or Earl Grey. At the coffee shop I meet Harold >her son.[along with about 5 girls] I slept in Harold's sister's feather >bed, [[BY THE WAY -she wasn't in it!!!] had breakfast in bed every Sunday >and during the winter a hot brick or a crockery foot warmer at the foot >of the bed when I came in about 11pm --The door was always unlocked for me. >I tried to explain that I was fed good on base - but I know that I have >eaten the last egg, the last glass of milk or piece of "very dear" meat. >Although I was no "kid" [few months over 21 when I enlisted in April of >'42. --NOW you know my age.] That was my home away from home every two >weeks [a fortnight that is] . > > I was a Sgt with the 444th Sub-Depot in the A/C Supply with the 303rd at >Molesworth. I took a bus from Northampton through Coventry to Birmingham - >the Tipton Bus #25 to Dudley or sometimes a train from Northhampton. This >explains my Friday night 11-12 PM arrival. For the first 2 months or so I >spent my nights sleeping in the womens section [They said it was cleaner >and I wouldn't be disturbed] of the local Constubulary. [ cop shop] Many is >the night that one of the Bobbies shared his lunch with me They always >brought an extra mattress for me and one night I took a ride in the Black >Mariah [ma-rye-a- I called it by the American name of 'Paddy wagon'] The >chief ask me if I had sent any pictures home - my answere being no ,he >immediately called his photographer [midnight by goodness!!!] and took some >pictures. When they were developed in 2 weeks I sent them home with a >request to send a carton of KOOL cigarettes - that is all he would take for >pay. > > This is a long winded epistle and once again I have run off at the >finger tips. > The moral of this letter is-- you folks will always be remembered by me. > > [[[hope there are not too many mistakes - This "infernal machine" >doesn't spell worth a hoot.]]] > > My town is 15 miles west of Grand Island and 127 miles east of North >Platte in the lowest bend of the Platte River - born and raised here. > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN > a. k. a. > Maurice J. Paulk > 205 W 12th St > Wood River, NE -68883-9164 -----a "city" of about 1200 > 308-583-2583 > EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! > Some when I arrive - > MOST when I leave > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 17:53:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:53:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #152 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <000e01c0938a$5f0050c0$2ebb9ace@mjpmtman> > Message: 2 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: THE ENGLISH PEOPLE > Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 13:56:06 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > And Maurice - . Did you visit the castle during your visit. Did you visit the Stafordshire crystal facility. > Kevin M. Pearson > KEVIN-----A lowly Sgt is lucky to get to see the chief of the Dudley Constubulary and share George Mcbride's [ a bobby] midnight lunch. AND not have the cell door locked when I slept in the cells. George was the smallest man on the force and I [6' 1" then] didn't have to look down on him. [ the chief was 6' 5"] My time was spent touring the country with Harold Parkes that I met at the coffee shop. Stratford-on-Avon etc [ with female companions] YES I did visit Dudley Castle . Think there was a zoo there too. In fact I have quite a few pictures of the castle from almost every possible angle I could "shoot". It was a fascinating structure which I visited several times. I have one taken from " ? ? Hill"....... Legend ? history? rumor? has it that William the Conquerer set his cannon on this hill to fire on the castle.. When he went in nobody was there. When they left and were back on the hill the castle was occupied again. Harold told me that a tunnel was found in the 1800s but lost it. Think it went to the rectory {park] below the castle. You probably know this anyway.. Never knew of the crystal factory. MAURICE From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 19:00:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:00:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: <004001c09393$ccd59980$04184e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C09369.E10DC8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone had any experience with the B-29? (dumb question). = Apparently this airplane was unsuitable for operations over Europe and = was employed only in the Pacific area . My source says that there were = problems with the engines and that there is a good possiblity that more = aircraft of this design were lost to mechanical failure than to enemy = action. Any, and all, comments will be appreciated in the furtherance = of valid understanding. Grant.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C09369.E10DC8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone had any experience with the = B-29? (dumb=20 question).  Apparently this airplane was unsuitable for operations = over=20 Europe and was employed only in the Pacific area .  My source says = that=20 there were problems with the engines and that there is a good possiblity = that=20 more aircraft of this design were lost to mechanical failure than to = enemy=20 action.  Any, and all, comments will be appreciated in the = furtherance of=20 valid understanding.  Grant. 
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C09369.E10DC8C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 19:53:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:53:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: <2f.10cef6b6.27b6f64b@aol.com> Grant. I didn't have any experience with B29's in combat so I don't know about the loses, accidents vrs enemy action. Compared to a B17 they were a complicated bird. They had four four row compound engines. Each engine had at least 56 spark plugs. They were pressurized. There was lots to go wrong with them. They were designed for the long range flights needed in the Pacific My personal opinion is the cost benefit ratio of using them in Europe would not be as good as the cost benefit ratio of our B17. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 21:07:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:07:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: <20010210.150739.-456911.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, I agree with your comments about the B-29's. However the pressurization, larger bomb load and added range could have been a plus near the end of the war in Europe. Regards, Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 21:15:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:15:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <2f.10cef6b6.27b6f64b@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c093a6$9f230320$bb904d0c@netzero> Hello Jack, thanks for replying to my message. The source of my information is a book titled, "Big Bombers of WWII" published by Lowe and Hould. The book seems to be well documented and features the B-17, B-24, and B-29. I would recommend it as a good resource for anyone (like me) who would like to get a good overview of the history and service records of these aircraft, and of the men who flew in them. I had wondered why the B-29 Superfortress was never sent to the ETO. This book explains quite a bit. If nothing else, at least two of them made a notable impact. I asked the forum simply because it often seems there are ten different variations of everything one reads. A consensus of opinion generally creates a base in fact from which one can proceed toward a reasonable conclusion. Kindest regards to you and your family. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > Grant. I didn't have any experience with B29's in combat so I don't know > about the loses, accidents vrs enemy action. Compared to a B17 they were a > complicated bird. They had four four row compound engines. Each engine had > at least 56 spark plugs. They were pressurized. There was lots to go wrong > with them. They were designed for the long range flights needed in the > Pacific My personal opinion is the cost benefit ratio of using them in Europe > would not be as good as the cost benefit ratio of our B17. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 21:31:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:31:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <20010210.150739.-456911.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000b01c093a8$e6676b20$bb904d0c@netzero> Bill, thanks for your reply. My source (see my reply to Jack Rencher) indicates that there was a major flaw in the oil distribution system that caused numerous engine failures. The problem was never adequately corrected, thus, due to the temperatures and operational conditions in the ETO, the B-29 was considered unviable over Europe. As ever, I entrust my opinion to the first hand experiences of the men who flew the aircraft. I posed the question only in the event that some of you may have had experience in the plane after the War ended in Europe. Very best regards, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > Jack, I agree with your comments about the B-29's. However the > pressurization, larger bomb load and added range could have been a plus > near the end of the war in Europe. > Regards, > Bill runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 23:13:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:13:33 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Poem Message-ID: <004001c093b7$1825c2c0$f80110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C093B7.169C1580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you will enjoy this. MILLENNIUM MESSAGE=20 FROM A GRATEFUL ENGLISHMAN To All World War II Veterans Who Served in England They came across vast oceans wide=20 to end the tyrant's rule. They fought against the crooked cross,=20 courage their greatest tool. In their thousands to strange foreign lands=20 the youth of America came. They gave their lives without a thought=20 of how to dodge the game. They gave their lives so readily=20 as graveyard headstones show. Against the odds they won each day=20 keeping freedoms flame aglow. How can we thank them for giving a life=20 our democracy to save? By walking through their cemeteries=20 and thanking each single grave. by Benjamin Howell (WWII RAF crewmember) ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C093B7.169C1580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C093B7.169C1580-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 23:16:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:16:04 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <2f.10cef6b6.27b6f64b@aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c093b7$724fbb20$f80110ac@Betac.com> They were originally conceived as a weapon system to be used to hit European targets from CONUS should England fail to stand alone. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > Grant. I didn't have any experience with B29's in combat so I don't know > about the loses, accidents vrs enemy action. Compared to a B17 they were a > complicated bird. They had four four row compound engines. Each engine had > at least 56 spark plugs. They were pressurized. There was lots to go wrong > with them. They were designed for the long range flights needed in the > Pacific My personal opinion is the cost benefit ratio of using them in Europe > would not be as good as the cost benefit ratio of our B17. > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 23:40:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:40:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Poem References: <004001c093b7$1825c2c0$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001801c093ba$e4b15180$e58e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C09390.FA626520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, thanks, and Roger that. The RAF has a few graves to visit also. = It was their War for awhile before it was "our" war. God bless every = mothers' son who fought against the Axis. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 6:13 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Poem I think you will enjoy this. MILLENNIUM MESSAGE=20 FROM A GRATEFUL ENGLISHMAN To All World War II Veterans Who Served in England They came across vast oceans wide=20 to end the tyrant's rule. They fought against the crooked cross,=20 courage their greatest tool. In their thousands to strange foreign lands=20 the youth of America came. They gave their lives without a thought=20 of how to dodge the game. They gave their lives so readily=20 as graveyard headstones show. Against the odds they won each day=20 keeping freedoms flame aglow. How can we thank them for giving a life=20 our democracy to save? By walking through their cemeteries=20 and thanking each single grave. by Benjamin Howell (WWII RAF crewmember) ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C09390.FA626520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian, thanks, and Roger that.  = The RAF has a=20 few graves to visit also.  It was their War for awhile before it = was "our"=20 war.  God bless every mothers' son who fought against the=20 Axis.

I think you will enjoy = this.

 

MILLENNIUM MESSAGE

FROM A GRATEFUL = ENGLISHMAN

To

All World War II Veterans Who Served in=20 England

 

They came across vast oceans wide

        to end the = tyrant’s=20 rule.

They fought against the crooked cross,

        courage their greatest=20 tool.

In their thousands to strange foreign lands

        the youth of America=20 came.

They gave their lives without a thought

        of how to dodge the=20 game.

They gave their lives so readily

        as graveyard headstones = show.

Against the odds they won each day

        keeping freedoms flame=20 aglow.

How can we thank them for giving a life

        our democracy to=20 save?

By walking through their cemeteries

        and thanking each = single=20 grave.

 

by Benjamin Howell (WWII RAF=20 crewmember)

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian McGuire
Sent: Saturday, February 10, = 2001 6:13=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Poem

I think you will enjoy = this.

 

MILLENNIUM MESSAGE

FROM A GRATEFUL = ENGLISHMAN

To

All World War II Veterans Who Served in=20 England

 

They came across vast oceans wide

        to end the = tyrant’s=20 rule.

They fought against the crooked cross,

        courage their = greatest=20 tool.

In their thousands to strange foreign lands

        the youth of America=20 came.

They gave their lives without a thought

        of how to dodge the=20 game.

They gave their lives so readily

        as graveyard = headstones=20 show.

Against the odds they won each day

        keeping freedoms = flame=20 aglow.

How can we thank them for giving a life

        our democracy to=20 save?

By walking through their cemeteries

        and thanking each = single=20 grave.

 

by Benjamin Howell (WWII RAF=20 crewmember)

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C09390.FA626520-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 10 23:43:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:43:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <2f.10cef6b6.27b6f64b@aol.com> <004d01c093b7$724fbb20$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001e01c093bb$575f3a80$e58e4d0c@netzero> In omnia est cogni.Thanks, Brian.(forgive my latin) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > They were originally conceived as a weapon system to be used to hit European > targets from CONUS should England fail to stand alone. > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > > > > Grant. I didn't have any experience with B29's in combat so I don't know > > about the loses, accidents vrs enemy action. Compared to a B17 they were > a > > complicated bird. They had four four row compound engines. Each engine > had > > at least 56 spark plugs. They were pressurized. There was lots to go wrong > > with them. They were designed for the long range flights needed in the > > Pacific My personal opinion is the cost benefit ratio of using them in > Europe > > would not be as good as the cost benefit ratio of our B17. > > Jack Rencher > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 11 19:57:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:57:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Poem Message-ID: Touching words...many thanks for sending them on. Hope all is well with you and yours. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 11 20:05:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:05:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Poem Message-ID: <5a.10fc4427.27b84a7b@aol.com> In the movie "For the Moment" about RCAF pilots training for bomber duty, the star Russell Crowe (of Gladiator fame) recites "High Flight" and his gal of the moment recognizes it as Gillespie's writing. A decent flick if you can find it. Nice air-to=air with a Gypsy Moth and others. I may even rent it again. Probably seen "Hell's Angels" and "Dawn Patrol" 30 times apiece. Ah, well. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 11 22:10:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:10:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 In-Reply-To: "Brian McGuire" 's message of Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:16:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19155-3A870DD2-1033@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bombing European targets from CONUS would have been one long haul. I once flew one thousand miles from Bermuda in a B 29 East towards the Azores to drop blood plasma on a freighter to save a seamans life and return to Bermuda. And that was a long haul. You would have had to carry double crews. But if we had to do it I'm sure we would have succeeded. It would have been a very interesting flight since you would have had to climb to 30,000 when you were about 100 miles from the enemy coast. You couldn't bomb Germany at 12,00 feet. We were trained to go in B-29s by going through both Bombing and Navigation schools. But the B-29s weren't ready when we were. I do have 1,ooo flying hours in an SB-29 flying with the Air Rescue Service. The aircraft was not as forgiving as a B-17. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 00:15:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:15:27 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People Message-ID: <000b01c09488$e7cb5720$ba447ad5@n0i6c5> Kevin I am so glad to say I have already made many friends among the 8th AF veterans. From Bomb Groups, Fighter Groups, ground crews, BAD 1 & 2. Yes, they are always so very helpful in telling me stories, answering my unlimited questions. When God made their generation, he threw away the mode. Later on this year, I hope to visit some of the places you mention, to visit the bases. Must say I am impressed at your calibre of friends in Dudley . LOL. At least when you went through customs setting off all the security alarms, you knew you had the 'Genuine' Staffordshire Crystal ! It really is beautiful crystal. Luv, Moofy (Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 01:30:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:30:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: <66.c12fa9e.27b896c9@aol.com> --part1_66.c12fa9e.27b896c9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd appreciate your input on the following: In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control Instructor's course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on Tinian or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption on those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later and a few weeks later I was separated from service. Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control theory and practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor? Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be replaced. Best regards Mike Zarelli --part1_66.c12fa9e.27b896c9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit            Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd appreciate
your input on the following:
            In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control Instructor's
course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on Tinian
or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption on
those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later and a few
weeks later I was separated from service.
            Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control theory and
practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor?
            Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be replaced.
                                                                             
       Best regards
                                                                             
             Mike Zarelli --part1_66.c12fa9e.27b896c9_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 05:05:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:05:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People References: <000b01c09488$e7cb5720$ba447ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <002501c094b1$7db04480$22f833cf@richards> Hi Moofy: My name is Dick "Spider" Smith The name Spider I got when I was flying my Second tour out of Honnington in The First Scouting Force under Col Bud Peasley. On our trip to England last June for the Monument dedication at Molesworth ,we met with Peter Randal at Duxford. Peter publishes the web site Little Friends on the web.Our Scouting Force has a web page on Little Friends you might find it interesting. Good Luck P.S. We really appreciate the English Peoples respect for we combat veterans. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People > Kevin I am so glad to say I have already made many friends among the 8th AF > veterans. From Bomb Groups, Fighter Groups, ground crews, BAD 1 & 2. Yes, > they are always so very helpful in telling me stories, answering my > unlimited questions. When God made their generation, he threw away the > mode. > > Later on this year, I hope to visit some of the places you mention, to visit > the bases. > Must say I am impressed at your calibre of friends in Dudley . LOL. > > At least when you went through customs setting off all the security alarms, > you knew you had the 'Genuine' Staffordshire Crystal ! It really is > beautiful crystal. > Luv, > Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 15:24:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:24:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People Message-ID: Moofy: Thanks for your kind message and you are quite correct about the generation that fought WWII. They are a very special breed, a breed in which this world will be forever grateful for what they did. So you want to visit some of the bases, ehh? I've been to 36 of the former 8th AF heavy bomber and fighter bases. I've made some great friends and would be willing to pass my experiences on to you - especially contact information, where to go, what to see, etc. With the kind and generaous assistance of the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn, I did not have to drive in your country. I am quite sure I would have killed some of your countrymen had I been negotiating the roads and roundabouts in East Anglia in a rented car!! ha ha! Where do you live and how much time do you have to see some of the old stations. You absolutely must go to the 100th Bomb Group Museum at Thorpe Abbotts, Diss, Norfolk (eat at the Three Horses pub!) and the 390th Bomb Group Museum at Parnham (Framlingham). Another must is the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn. If you give me your e-mail address, I will send you my itineraries which are extremely detailed. I also suggest you purchase Ordinance Survey maps 1:50,000 for Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Sussex, and a few others. These maps can be purchased at any book store in the UK but are pricy at 7 Pounds each. But they show what is left of each old station - buildings, runways, peri tracks, etc. Send me your e-mail and I will forward some things that will help you in your visits to the old stations. Are you planning to go to the Spitfire Airshow at Duxford in May. If not, you should. It is fabulous! Write soon! Kevin >From: "Moofy" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:15:27 -0000 > >Kevin I am so glad to say I have already made many friends among the 8th >AF >veterans. From Bomb Groups, Fighter Groups, ground crews, BAD 1 & 2. >Yes, >they are always so very helpful in telling me stories, answering my >unlimited questions. When God made their generation, he threw away the >mode. > >Later on this year, I hope to visit some of the places you mention, to >visit >the bases. >Must say I am impressed at your calibre of friends in Dudley . LOL. > >At least when you went through customs setting off all the security alarms, >you knew you had the 'Genuine' Staffordshire Crystal ! It really is >beautiful crystal. >Luv, >Moofy (Yvonne)UK > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 18:03:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:03:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <66.c12fa9e.27b896c9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c0951e$1506d260$3d8f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C094F4.29FF4460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the forum and wonder if you could shed = some light on the strengths and weaknesses of the B-29. I understand = that the engines were a continuing problem. It sounds as though you = have some first hand knowlege. I have wondered for some time why the = B-29 was not employed in Europe. I will look forward to your expert = comments. Thanks. L. Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd = appreciate=20 your input on the following:=20 In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control = Instructor's=20 course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on = Tinian=20 or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption = on=20 those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later and = a few=20 weeks later I was separated from service.=20 Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control = theory and=20 practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be = replaced.=20 = =20 Best regards=20 = =20 Mike Zarelli=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C094F4.29FF4460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the = forum and=20 wonder if you could shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of = the=20 B-29.  I understand that the engines were a continuing = problem.  It=20 sounds as though you have some first hand knowlege.  I have = wondered for=20 some time why the B-29 was not employed in Europe.  I will look = forward to=20 your expert comments.  Thanks.  L. Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mlzsilverfox@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 = 8:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

          &nbs= p;Hal=20 Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd appreciate
your = input on=20 the following:=20 =
           &nb= sp;In=20 August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control Instructor's
course = at=20 Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on Tinian =
or=20 Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption on=20
those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later = and a=20 few
weeks later I was separated from service.=20 =
           &nb= sp;Question=20 :Did you have any exposure to cruise control theory and
practice = and and=20 do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 =
           &nb= sp;Hope=20 the new hip is working and doesn't have to be replaced.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20
       Best regards=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 =
           &nb= sp; Mike=20 Zarelli ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C094F4.29FF4460-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 18:17:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:17:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <19155-3A870DD2-1033@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <002401c09520$13166220$3d8f4d0c@netzero> Hal, your plasma mission is described in the book "Big Bombers Of WWII". published by Lowe and B. Hould first edition in 1993. This book initiated my original curiosity and question about the B-29. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > Bombing European targets from CONUS would have been one long haul. I > once flew one thousand miles from Bermuda in a B 29 East towards the > Azores to drop blood plasma on a freighter to save a seamans life and > return to Bermuda. And that was a long haul. You would have had to carry > double crews. But if we had to do it I'm sure we would have succeeded. > It would have been a very interesting flight since you would have had to > climb to 30,000 when you were about 100 miles from the enemy coast. You > couldn't bomb Germany at 12,00 feet. We were trained to go in B-29s by > going through both Bombing and Navigation schools. But the B-29s weren't > ready when we were. I do have 1,ooo flying hours in an SB-29 flying with > the Air Rescue Service. The aircraft was not as forgiving as a B-17. > Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 21:48:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:48:52 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: --part1_fd.23a406a.27b9b444_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---I'm embarrased--sorry that I gave you or anyone else the idea that I might contribute some expertise on the B-29. Truth to tell I never even saw the inside of one !!! My experience was 30 missions as a B-17 navigator/GH operator. Best regards Mike Zarelli --part1_fd.23a406a.27b9b444_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---I'm embarrased--sorry that I gave you or anyone else the idea that I
might contribute some expertise on the B-29. Truth to tell I never even saw
the inside of one !!!  My experience was 30 missions as a B-17 navigator/GH
operator.
                                                                             
 Best regards
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_fd.23a406a.27b9b444_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 21:58:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:58:21 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People Message-ID: <005e01c0953e$ecaf5b40$31cd7ad5@n0i6c5> Hi Dick, What a small world, as only yesterday I have contact with Peter Randal, I had been visiting the 'Little Friends' Website, and asked him for a copy of the files on the serial numbers of the Fighter Groups. Which he very kindly sent me. Dick as a member of The First Scouting Force, would you have flown P-38's and P-51's ? I have a soft spot for the P-38, as my dear friend Jack Ilfrey was with the 20th FG at Kings Cliffe and I have a number of pictures hung up on our wall of his P-38 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy'. Then again I have soft spots for 'P-47's, P-51's, B-17's, B-24's' !!LOL Lovely to be able to say hi , Kind Regards, Moofy(Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 22:41:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:41:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: Message-ID: <000901c09544$e362ed80$d1904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0951A.F8849260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, no worries. Incidently, I have a book that mentions Hal Susskinds = mission to deliver plasma. (small world sometimes; dang! That was = Hal!) My dad was a Navigator also. He flew with the 427th. After the = war he graduated to B-47s and flew out of McDill and later Pease. Best, = Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Lloyd---I'm embarrased--sorry that I gave you or anyone else the idea = that I=20 might contribute some expertise on the B-29. Truth to tell I never = even saw=20 the inside of one !!! My experience was 30 missions as a B-17 = navigator/GH=20 operator.=20 = =20 Best regards=20 = =20 Mike Zarelli=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0951A.F8849260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike, no worries.  Incidently, I = have a book=20 that mentions Hal Susskinds mission to deliver plasma.  (small = world=20 sometimes;  dang! That was Hal!) My dad was a Navigator also.  = He flew=20 with the 427th.  After the war he graduated to B-47s and flew out = of McDill=20 and later Pease.  Best, Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mlzsilverfox@aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 = 4:48=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

Lloyd---I'm = embarrased--sorry that I gave you or anyone else the idea that I =
might=20 contribute some expertise on the B-29. Truth to tell I never even saw =
the=20 inside of one !!!  My experience was 30 missions as a B-17 = navigator/GH=20
operator.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20
 Best regards=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20
       Mike Zarelli=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0951A.F8849260-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 22:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:55:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <66.c12fa9e.27b896c9@aol.com> <001601c0951e$1506d260$3d8f4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <001301c09546$da3db3a0$61f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09503.CB6AF9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi lloyd: This is Spider Smith ,I had some experience with the B29 after the war . = On reason for the engine problems was that Wright Engine Designers = increased power by in creasing compression Ratio and Prat nod Whitney = did it by increasing displacement. Thus the 3350 was always in trouble = blowing heads and so forth. Hope I helped Spider ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the forum and wonder if you could shed = some light on the strengths and weaknesses of the B-29. I understand = that the engines were a continuing problem. It sounds as though you = have some first hand knowlege. I have wondered for some time why the = B-29 was not employed in Europe. I will look forward to your expert = comments. Thanks. L. Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd = appreciate=20 your input on the following:=20 In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control = Instructor's=20 course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group = on Tinian=20 or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel = consumption on=20 those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later = and a few=20 weeks later I was separated from service.=20 Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control = theory and=20 practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be = replaced.=20 = =20 Best regards=20 = =20 Mike Zarelli=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09503.CB6AF9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi lloyd:
This is Spider Smith ,I had some = experience with=20 the B29 after the war . On reason for the engine problems was that = Wright Engine=20 Designers increased power by in creasing compression Ratio and Prat nod = Whitney=20 did it by increasing displacement. Thus the 3350 was always in trouble = blowing=20 heads and so forth.
 Hope I helped
      =20 Spider
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd=20 J H Grant
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 = 10:03=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the = forum and=20 wonder if you could shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of = the=20 B-29.  I understand that the engines were a continuing = problem.  It=20 sounds as though you have some first hand knowlege.  I have = wondered for=20 some time why the B-29 was not employed in Europe.  I will look = forward=20 to your expert comments.  Thanks.  L. Grant.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mlzsilverfox@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, = 2001 8:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

          &nbs= p;Hal=20 Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd appreciate
your = input on=20 the following:=20 =
           &nb= sp;In=20 August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control Instructor's =
course at=20 Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on Tinian =
or=20 Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption = on=20
those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days = later and a=20 few
weeks later I was separated from service.=20 =
           &nb= sp;Question=20 :Did you have any exposure to cruise control theory and
practice = and and=20 do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 =
           &nb= sp;Hope=20 the new hip is working and doesn't have to be replaced.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20
       Best regards=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 =
           &nb= sp; Mike=20 Zarelli
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09503.CB6AF9C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 23:39:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:39:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <66.c12fa9e.27b896c9@aol.com> <001601c0951e$1506d260$3d8f4d0c@netzero> <001301c09546$da3db3a0$61f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000901c0954d$051a3d40$36914d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C09523.1A5EFA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dick, that jibes with the info I have. I believe that Pratt&Whitney = knew of the potential for problems and advised the Air Force, however = the urgency to get the plane operational took precedence. Apparently = efforts to correct the problem did not bear fruit and many losses = resulted from noncombat related damage to the engines. I wonder how = depressurization from combat damage affected survivability. I know this = is kind of off the subject of this forum, but at least you and Hal had = experience with this plane first hand, and your responses help to = explain partly why the B-29 was not employed in Europe. I appreciate = your help and would like to hear anything else you guys might think is = germaine to the subject. ( I am not the only one interested). Thanks, = Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick Smith=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Hi lloyd: This is Spider Smith ,I had some experience with the B29 after the war = . On reason for the engine problems was that Wright Engine Designers = increased power by in creasing compression Ratio and Prat nod Whitney = did it by increasing displacement. Thus the 3350 was always in trouble = blowing heads and so forth. Hope I helped Spider ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J H Grant=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the forum and wonder if you could = shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of the B-29. I = understand that the engines were a continuing problem. It sounds as = though you have some first hand knowlege. I have wondered for some time = why the B-29 was not employed in Europe. I will look forward to your = expert comments. Thanks. L. Grant. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd = appreciate=20 your input on the following:=20 In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control = Instructor's=20 course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group = on Tinian=20 or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel = consumption on=20 those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later = and a few=20 weeks later I was separated from service.=20 Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control = theory and=20 practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be = replaced.=20 = =20 Best regards=20 = =20 Mike Zarelli=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C09523.1A5EFA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dick, that jibes with the info I = have.  I=20 believe that Pratt&Whitney knew of the potential for problems and = advised=20 the Air Force, however the urgency to get the plane operational took=20 precedence.  Apparently efforts to correct the problem did not bear = fruit=20 and many losses resulted from noncombat related damage to the = engines.  I=20 wonder how depressurization from combat damage affected = survivability.  I=20 know this is kind of off the subject of this forum, but at least you and = Hal had=20 experience with this plane first hand, and your responses help to = explain partly=20 why the B-29 was not employed in Europe.  I appreciate your help = and would=20 like to hear anything else you guys might think is germaine to the = subject. ( I=20 am not the only one interested).  Thanks,  Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dick = Smith
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 = 5:55=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

Hi lloyd:
This is Spider Smith ,I had some = experience with=20 the B29 after the war . On reason for the engine problems was that = Wright=20 Engine Designers increased power by in creasing compression Ratio and = Prat nod=20 Whitney did it by increasing displacement. Thus the 3350 was always in = trouble=20 blowing heads and so forth.
 Hope I helped
      =20 Spider
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd J H Grant
Sent: Monday, February 12, = 2001 10:03=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the = forum and=20 wonder if you could shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses = of the=20 B-29.  I understand that the engines were a continuing = problem. =20 It sounds as though you have some first hand knowlege.  I have = wondered=20 for some time why the B-29 was not employed in Europe.  I will = look=20 forward to your expert comments.  Thanks.  L. = Grant.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mlzsilverfox@aol.com =
Sent: Sunday, February 11, = 2001 8:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = B-29

          &nbs= p;Hal=20 Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd appreciate =
your input=20 on the following:=20 =
           &nb= sp;In=20 August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control Instructor's =
course at=20 Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on Tinian =
or=20 Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption = on=20
those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days = later and=20 a few
weeks later I was separated from service.=20 =
           &nb= sp;Question=20 :Did you have any exposure to cruise control theory and =
practice and=20 and do you think it was a useful endeavor?=20 =
           &nb= sp;Hope=20 the new hip is working and doesn't have to be replaced.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20
       Best regards=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 =
           &nb= sp; Mike=20 Zarelli =
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C09523.1A5EFA80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 01:37:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:37:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: <000c01c0955d$9a083460$41914d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09533.AF5C33E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since 1942. What do think = about the enemy airmen who attacked you, the Ack-Ack gunners, and the = treatment of downed aircrew? The reason for this question is in part for perspective, and in part a = desire to resolve the term "duty". The question is relevant to all = theatres. ( I will probably catch hell for asking, but I would not ask = at all had I not given the the matter serious thought in advance). It = has been said, "What we don't learn from History, we are doomed to = repeat." Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09533.AF5C33E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A lot of water has flowed under the = bridge since=20 1942.  What do think about the enemy airmen who attacked you, the = Ack-Ack=20 gunners, and the treatment of downed aircrew?
The reason for this question is = in  part for=20 perspective, and in part a desire to resolve the term "duty".  The = question=20 is relevant to all theatres. ( I will probably catch hell for asking, = but I=20 would not ask at all had I not given the the matter serious thought in=20 advance).  It has been said, "What we don't learn from History, we = are=20 doomed to repeat." Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09533.AF5C33E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 03:10:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:10:11 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: <20010212.211014.-201275.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, the question you ask is a very personal one and I doubt that to many will respond. The atrocities of war can not and should not be forgotten. However, I feel the healing process over the past fifty plus years has been well served. I have talked to a number of the people you refer to (enemy) and found that they have set aside any vengeance and regret the circumstances that led to battle. If you do receive a number of answers I am certain of one thing, the opinions will differ greatly. Regards, Bill Runnels - bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 12 22:50:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:50:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People References: <005e01c0953e$ecaf5b40$31cd7ad5@n0i6c5> Message-ID: <000801c09546$31819880$61f833cf@richards> Hi Moofy: No I only flew P51's as the p38's were already gone to the 9th Air Force to be used in ground support. The 364th fighter group where we of the scouting force were attatched ,had originally been a P38 group but they switched to P51s befor I got there in November of 1944. My P51 was named Easy Does It there is a picture of it on Little friends under 1st Scoiuting Force enjoy Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moofy" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People > Hi Dick, > What a small world, as only yesterday I have contact with Peter Randal, I > had been visiting the 'Little Friends' Website, and asked him for a copy of > the files on the serial numbers of the Fighter Groups. Which he very kindly > sent me. > Dick as a member of The First Scouting Force, would you have flown P-38's > and P-51's ? I have a soft spot for the P-38, as my dear friend Jack Ilfrey > was with the 20th FG at Kings Cliffe and I have a number of pictures hung up > on our wall of his P-38 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy'. > Then again I have soft spots for 'P-47's, P-51's, B-17's, B-24's' !!LOL > Lovely to be able to say hi , > Kind Regards, > Moofy(Yvonne)UK > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 04:08:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:08:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" References: <20010212.211014.-201275.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000501c09572$989e5ea0$0d904d0c@netzero> Bill, I had reservations about asking the question and on the basis of your reply, sincerely wish I had refrained. I hope that other members will excuse me for posting it and dispose of it in a suitable manner. If I knew how to erase the question , I most certainly would. To all who see it , please accept my apologies Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" > Lloyd, the question you ask is a very personal one and I doubt that to > many will respond. The atrocities of war can not and should not be > forgotten. However, I feel the healing process over the past fifty plus > years has been well served. I have talked to a number of the people you > refer to (enemy) and found that they have set aside any vengeance and > regret the circumstances that led to battle. If you do receive a number > of answers I am certain of one thing, the opinions will differ greatly. > Regards, > Bill Runnels - bombardier > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 04:46:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:46:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: <20010212.224613.-346763.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, don't feel bad about asking the question. It is a natural one and others may want to respond. We all have our feelings for one reason or another. Mine may not reflect the norm. In any event keep involved in searching out the truth in these matters. Your question was not offensive in any way. Personal regards, Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 14:28:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:28:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:26:22 -0500 <3A7AD910.19706.1C946FA@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c095c9$4ee26980$1c8f4d0c@netzero> Bill, My sister informed me that she has located a box of records and "stuff". I will pick it up this weekend (2/17/01) and will let you and Donald Kehne know if there is anything of significant interest. Lloyd. Ps I am gradually getting my office in order and would like to stay in touch regarding our original subject. Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > > Lloyd Grant Somwheres in > > my research files I have a copy of the early history of the 427th sqdn. > > Re squadron histories, I had remembered seeing a "history of the 360th squadron" on > the microfilm I have, (and I think I remember seeing something similar for the 359th > also), so I went back and looked at it yesterday, after this topic came up. > Unfortunately, the "history" there was the "very early" history, ie from the inception of > the squadron through the early months of deployment, but had little or nothing for the > periods after early 1943. The microfilm also showed the pages of a very detailed journal > diary for the squadron, which ended I think in May of 1943. I think that there was > another historical passage on the microfilm after the Jan 10th 300th mission, but > overall, most of the what they have there is for the early part of the squadron's > existance, but not much for the later periods. > Despite this, the information on the microfilm might make the beginnings of a > squadron history. There would have to be considerable input from people with stories > about the periods after early 1943 though. > The microfilm for the later periods of the war has mission by mission information > regarding what planes and crews flew to each target, and day by day administrative > records of transfers in and out of the squadron, promotions, etc, and very brief > narratives of each mission, but is lacking any personal accounts of what was going on. > It would be possible to put together an impersonal squadron history from the microfilm, > but it would be a lot of work. Might be worth trying though. > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 17:44:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:44:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: February 8th - AIR TRAFFIC CON TROLL Message-ID: <11.fbc9abf.27bacc63@aol.com> --part1_11.fbc9abf.27bacc63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/2001 10:27:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time, rtn-1-1-791704-c9UoqJFtDX5Uem4s-601@mta03.optamail.com writes: << AIR TRAFFIC CON TROLL -Submitted by Mr. Biggles --true story ____________________________________________ The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a PanAm 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747 (call sign "Speedbird 206") after landing: Speedbird 206: "Top of the morning Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the active runway." Ground: "Guten morgen! You will taxi to your gate!" The big British Airways 747 pulled onto the main taxi way and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." Ground: "Speedbird 206, have you never flown to Frankfurt before?!?" Speedbird 206 (cooly): "Yes, I have, in 1944. In another type of Boeing, but I didn't stop." >> --part1_11.fbc9abf.27bacc63_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:27:28 -0500 Received: from mta03.optamail.com (mta03.optamail.com [204.168.70.196]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:27:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: <1_1_791704_601@mta03.optamail.com> To: amramsr@aol.com From: "Joke-Of-The-Day.com" Subject: February 8th - AIR TRAFFIC CON TROLL X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ======================================================== J O K E - O F - T H E - D A Y . c o m ======================================================== "The World's Largest Daily Joke List" *100% FREE* TO JOIN 1. Click Here: http://www.joke-of-the-day.com OR 2. 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And don't forget to check out our new Valentine's Day Jokes site at: http://www.valentinesdayjokes.com Joke for Thursday, February 8th AIR TRAFFIC CON TROLL -Submitted by Mr. Biggles ____________________________________________ The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a PanAm 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747 (call sign "Speedbird 206") after landing: Speedbird 206: "Top of the morning Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the active runway." Ground: "Guten morgen! You will taxi to your gate!" The big British Airways 747 pulled onto the main taxi way and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." 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If you have received this and have not subscribed, then someone had either forwarded you the message or has subscribed you. Copyright 1997-2001 JOKE-OF-THE-DAY.com / The Humor Network LLC All Rights reserved. Permission is granted for noncommercial distribution of Joke-of-the-Day.com's Jokes as long as this full copyright notice is included, including the subscription information below. TO GET A JOKE EVERYDAY, Go here http://www.Joke-Of-The-Day.com or E-mail: mailto:JOIN@Joke-Of-The-Day.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You received this e-mail because when you signed up you agreed to receive Joke-Of-The-Day from the Humor Network. If you don't want to get these letters anymore please visit: http://home.optamail.com/unsub.php?a=1&b=791704&c=c9UoqJFtDX5Uem4s&d=601&e=1 or send an email to the following address: mailto:unsub-1-1-791704-c9UoqJFtDX5Uem4s-601@mta03.optamail.com --part1_11.fbc9abf.27bacc63_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 18:47:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:47:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) FW: Metko, Earl D. Message-ID: <3A891EC4.8297.14742D@localhost> Can anyone help John Sakis with his VA Hospital question? Please send any reply to the list and to John at: JSackis@cooperlighting.com Thanks! ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "Sackis, John" To: "'glm@303rdBGA.com'" Subject: FW: Metko, Earl D. Date sent: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:22:43 -0600 I got permission from Earl's wife, Betty, to give you more information on him. Earl suffered several heart attacks in addition to his stroke. He is doing better but still cannot be released. He has some limited awareness but also has a trache tube in his throat. He is a Medicare (only) patient and is in a limited care hospital in Chicago. He will have to leave there soon and be placed in an extended care facility. His family has been told that Hines VA Hospital cannot take him! They claim that they cannot take a trache patient. It seems to me that the VA should be able to do something for him. He has been on a partial disability pension due to wounds received over Europe. He was decorated and has at least one Purple Heart. Would anyone in your organization have any idea how to improve his chances to get better care through the VA. Earl is not a member of any veteran's organization (that I know of). I will contact the VFW for hints from them (I am a member as a result of my tour as a door gunner in Vietnam) but they may not be able or willing to help. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! John G. Sackis - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 19:30:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:30:31 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: Hey Spider: I heard the problem with the 3750s was when they would go from low blower to high blower. Could be the same problem you reference with incresed cylinder head pressure. But the damn things caught fire. Same thing happened with the engines on the initial Lockheed Constellations, which is I am correct, is the same engine! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:55:09 -0800 > >Hi lloyd: >This is Spider Smith ,I had some experience with the B29 after the war . On >reason for the engine problems was that Wright Engine Designers increased >power by in creasing compression Ratio and Prat nod Whitney did it by >increasing displacement. Thus the 3350 was always in trouble blowing heads >and so forth. > Hope I helped > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lloyd J H Grant > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > > > Mike, I saw your note to Hal on the forum and wonder if you could shed >some light on the strengths and weaknesses of the B-29. I understand that >the engines were a continuing problem. It sounds as though you have some >first hand knowlege. I have wondered for some time why the B-29 was not >employed in Europe. I will look forward to your expert comments. Thanks. >L. Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:30 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > > > Hal Susskind--In light of your B-29 experience, I'd >appreciate > your input on the following: > In August,1945, I completed a B-29 Cruise Control >Instructor's > course at Hondo AFB and was waiting to be assigned to a B-29 Group on >Tinian > or Saipan to instruct flight engineers on optimizing fuel consumption >on > those long missions to Japan. V-J Day came along a few days later and >a few > weeks later I was separated from service. > Question :Did you have any exposure to cruise control >theory and > practice and and do you think it was a useful endeavor? > Hope the new hip is working and doesn't have to be >replaced. > > Best regards > > Mike Zarelli _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 19:52:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:52:59 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: Lloyd: I can not answer the question you pose, but can answer the question of how the German people now feel about you fliers. In 1998 and 1998, I went to Germany in search of the crash site of 1Lt Leonard F. Figie's, Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 91st BG(H), 324th BS, that was lost to fighters from IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 enroute to the Seibel Aircraft Works at Halle, Germany, on the 16th of August 1944. With the help of a local newspaperman with the Gottingen Tageblatt, I was able to meet about thirty Germans who had witnessed the downing of the six a/c lost from the 324th BS that day. These people had always wondered why none of the aircrews had returned looking for thier plane or lost comrades. They rolled out the red carpet for me and the first time I went over, I was as nervous as a fox in the chicken coupe! I found about 200 pounds of debris from Lassie, and from 2Lt John V. Dunlap's, Boston Bombshell, 42-39996, 91st BG(H), 324th BS. The Germans could not have treated me better. What I learned on that first trip, and this may sound trite, but I learned the war was really over, that there were no bad feelings left over from the war. As the Germans said, had it not been for the Marshall Plan, thousands if not millions would have perished to weather and starvation in the winter of 45. And I met Oskar Boesch, a FW 190 pilot who flew against the 324th BS that day and is credited with a B-17 victory at 1002, the exact same time Lassie is listed as having gone down. Oskar holds no ill will against the men in the bombers, not now. He did during the war and specifically requested assignment to a Sturmgruppen. But now, he realizes, like I think many of the vets, that each side was doing their duty for their country. Oskar was shot down four times, crashed four times, and collided with other a/c four times. He had 18 vicories - mostly Russian. But he is still very sensitive to giving out his address or phone number for fear of repraisals. I have notes taken from two interviews with Oskar if anyone would like for me to post them. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 22:05:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:05:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 In-Reply-To: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com's message of Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:30:49 EST Message-ID: <2790-3A89AFAF-3923@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I had no exposure to the B-29 cruise control theory. In 1953 while flying with the Air Resue service we swapped our four B-17s for four B-29s and our troubles began. It was not made for a navigators comfort so we took out the turrets. Which gave the navigator a lot more room. We pulled shifts. We were on from 8 A.M. in the morning until 8 the next morning but became the backup rescue crew un til 5 p.m. on the next day. When we ran up the B-29 in the morning we took over it hardly ever checked out. When we inspected the aircraft before we took off we used to find rags in the scoops and sometime extra tools. If we flew a few hours and landed it was out of commission, consequently when we took off we had to stay up for eight hours circling the island of Bermuda and staying within 100 miles of the island in case we got a rescue call. Our area of responsibility was the Atlantic ocean as far east as the Azores. Anything boat or aircraft that declared an emegency in that area we had to go out and interept it. The so called Bermuda Triangle was in our area. During the time I was there we were the second busiest Rescue flight in the world. Korea was the busiest. We once took of in the B-29 in four minutes after we got a rescue call. It was verified by the Commander of MATS who happened to be in Bermuda at the time. We carried a lifeboat underneath. It was quite a thrill to drop one of those> Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 22:32:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:32:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:17:32 -0500 Message-ID: <16014-3A89B5ED-6148@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Lloyd Thank you very much for letting me know that my plasma drop incident was in a book called " Big Bombers of WW II" I'll try and get a copy after I get my hip replaced. It was quite a mission. The controls for the radar set was in the rear of the aircraft and I spent a good part of the mission crawling through the tunnel to tune it up and get back up front to the navigator's position. Of course I had to be in the nose for the drop. The pilot and I were put in for awards but we never got them. The paperwork was lost. I had a great pilot who got out of the service. If I get a copy of the story, I'll see if I can locate him and sent it to him. I know he became a judge in Cincinnati. What navigation school did your dad go through? Thanks again. Hal Sussskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 22:42:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:42:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People In-Reply-To: "Moofy" 's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:58:21 -0000 Message-ID: <16013-3A89B84A-7441@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Wasn't Alison Brooks with that outfit? Also Jack Ilfrey, the last I heard, lives about 30 miles down the road from Austin, Texas. Wasn't he one of the early flying sergeants? Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 23:08:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:08:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:37:58 -0500 Message-ID: <16017-3A89BE63-3205@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> When I was still the editor of the Hells's Angels newsletter I visited Germany and was the houseguest of a former JU-188 pilot. He was a good friend of "The Golden Knight" one of Germany's top aces. They had a lot of respect for the American flyers. They were amazed that we never broke formation when they attacked us. They had a job to do but unlike us they had to keep fighting, there were no 30 missiond tours. If one of our downed airmen had the misfortune to land in the midst of German civilians or the Gestapo, they were treated very badly and in some cases murdered. I'm sure that a number of German military became American civilians after the war. I know of one. I visited Germany many times after 1985 and was always treated very cordially and I never hid the fact that I was an ex-WW II American flyer. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 23:15:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:15:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #147 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: Wmjdallas@aol.com's message of Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:23:12 EST Message-ID: <16023-3A89C012-262@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Bill You are correct in your dates. I was also on the March 3, flight. Boy that was lousy weather. When the planes started collidng I knew it was time to go home. It was one of those hurry up missions. I believe they sold us the bill of goods that there was a ground fog all over Germany and that the Luftwaffe would be unable to take off. I flew with the Goolsby crew that day. He lead the 359th squadron. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 23:02:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:02:37 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" References: Message-ID: <001501c09611$228f4900$b309f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Kevin, Nice post, and it demonstrates again the dedication you have to the war in the ETO, and the heavies, in particular. I remember reading your notes about Oscar last year, on the EAAS's 'TM Loop', and they were very good. I can think of no reason not to post them again. Some of the vets here may find them uncomfortable, as they did at that former time. Maybe that is a good reason not to post them here, but rather to send them out individually. I for one would like to see them posted again, as they surely did bring out a good discussion. At that time, I remember that some of the criticism about Oscar was directed to you, as if criticizing the messenger would ease some old fears and hate. It wasn't fair criticism at the time, and wouldn't be fair now. It is my belief that all sides have a story, and Oscar's was certainly one of the most intelligent and truthful so far published, as a view from the other side, the enemy at the time. Some of the facts he related were as he experienced, and not as we have read and been told by the history as written by the victors - us. As you know, I write, and am writing, some of the history of that era. Some people are loathe to give me any info, because I like to write things as they happened, not as some say we should. I have been criticized by a couple of vets of trying to rewrite history, as a revisionist would. Not true. However, there are two sides to every story, and if we are to prevent another war of this magnitude from happening again, we need to know the truth. Knowing how the enemy acted and thought, and why, and being able to counteract that thinking with knowledge gleaned from the past, is a good thing. Not a bad thing. I didn't agree with everything Oscar said, but I sure wanted to hear him say it. In the same way that we can combat prejudice, misunderstanding, and fear-mongering by those who would do so today, from the likes of Jesse Jackson to Jesse Helms, throw the interviews out there and let's talk about them. So, if it is OK with Gary, and some of the senior members of this talk ring, I say put it on the 303rd Talk Ring for all of us. Then we can discuss it in a straightforward and forthright manner, and maybe all of us can learn a little more about ourselves. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com _________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" > Lloyd: I can not answer the question you pose, but can answer the question > of how the German people now feel about you fliers. In 1998 and 1998, I > went to Germany in search of the crash site of 1Lt Leonard F. Figie's, > Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 91st BG(H), 324th BS, that was lost to fighters > from IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 enroute to the Seibel Aircraft Works at Halle, Germany, > on the 16th of August 1944. With the help of a local newspaperman with the > Gottingen Tageblatt, I was able to meet about thirty Germans who had > witnessed the downing of the six a/c lost from the 324th BS that day. > > These people had always wondered why none of the aircrews had returned > looking for thier plane or lost comrades. They rolled out the red carpet > for me and the first time I went over, I was as nervous as a fox in the > chicken coupe! I found about 200 pounds of debris from Lassie, and from 2Lt > John V. Dunlap's, Boston Bombshell, 42-39996, 91st BG(H), 324th BS. The > Germans could not have treated me better. What I learned on that first > trip, and this may sound trite, but I learned the war was really over, that > there were no bad feelings left over from the war. As the Germans said, had > it not been for the Marshall Plan, thousands if not millions would have > perished to weather and starvation in the winter of 45. > > And I met Oskar Boesch, a FW 190 pilot who flew against the 324th BS that > day and is credited with a B-17 victory at 1002, the exact same time Lassie > is listed as having gone down. Oskar holds no ill will against the men in > the bombers, not now. He did during the war and specifically requested > assignment to a Sturmgruppen. But now, he realizes, like I think many of > the vets, that each side was doing their duty for their country. Oskar was > shot down four times, crashed four times, and collided with other a/c four > times. He had 18 vicories - mostly Russian. But he is still very sensitive > to giving out his address or phone number for fear of repraisals. > > I have notes taken from two interviews with Oskar if anyone would like for > me to post them. > Kevin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 00:18:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:18:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" In-Reply-To: <001501c09611$228f4900$b309f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A896C6F.501.143E3F9@localhost> > So, if it is OK with Gary, and some of the senior members of this talk > ring, I say put it on the 303rd Talk Ring for all of us. Then we can discuss > it in a straightforward and forthright manner, and maybe all of us can learn > a little more about ourselves. I have no objection. This is an open forum. As long as it's WWII related and you don't swear and call each other names, anything goes. :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 00:20:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:20:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: <6b.fd169ba.27bb2967@aol.com> put it all out here for those who missed to read spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 01:37:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:37:43 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <2790-3A89AFAF-3923@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001e01c09626$ba4b6200$7409f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Hal, I am sure finding this discussion on the B29 informative. I never realized how unpredictable it was. I've read quite a bit about the bombing of Japan, and the Enola Gay, etc., but I don't recall any of this coming up. I do remember that there were 'emergency' airfields scattered around the area, and that when Iwo Jima was captured, at great sacrifice, it was a real coup, because of the closeness to Japan. I also recall that it was mentioned that it was a necessary emergency airfield for the bombers returning to Tinian, and other fields. I wonder how dependable the only flying B29 in the world today, "FiFi", is. It is still airworthy, and maybe they have fixed some of the old bugs that used to plague the ones you and your peers flew in? Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > I had no exposure to the B-29 cruise control theory. In 1953 while > flying with the Air Resue service we swapped our four B-17s for four > B-29s and our troubles began. It was not made for a navigators comfort > so we took out the turrets. Which gave the navigator a lot more room. We > pulled shifts. We were on from 8 A.M. in the morning until 8 the next > morning but became the backup rescue crew un til 5 p.m. on the next day. > When we ran up the B-29 in the morning we took over it hardly ever > checked out. When we inspected the aircraft before we took off we used > to find rags in the scoops and sometime extra tools. If we flew a few > hours and landed it was out of commission, consequently when we took off > we had to stay up for eight hours circling the island of Bermuda and > staying within 100 miles of the island in case we got a rescue call. Our > area of responsibility was the Atlantic ocean as far east as the Azores. > Anything boat or aircraft that declared an emegency in that area we had > to go out and interept it. The so called Bermuda Triangle was in our > area. During the time I was there we were the second busiest Rescue > flight in the world. Korea was the busiest. We once took of in the B-29 > in four minutes after we got a rescue call. It was verified by the > Commander of MATS who happened to be in Bermuda at the time. We carried > a lifeboat underneath. It was quite a thrill to drop one of those> Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 02:19:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:19:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 References: <16014-3A89B5ED-6148@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001501c0962c$9a50fc20$b48f4d0c@netzero> Hal, you do not have to purchase a copy of the Big Bombers book ( it is probably out of publication anyway). I will look up the passage and gladly see that you get some copies. I may have to write it out and cite the author as a credit. Part of the reason I am asking alot of redundant questions of you guys is that my dads' records have been lost , or seriously misplaced. I have found a pile of old photos and some may be worth forwarding. I plan to turn off the phone and spend the weekend going thru them. Incidently, the "After Mission" photo was of the Jersey Jinx and presumably her crew, although there are some remarkable resemblances in the picture to other men. Please never forget how much I sincerely appreciate what you and the other guys have done to help me learn. I hope that one day the knowledge I acquire will have a fruitful outcome. Thank you, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-29 > Lloyd Thank you > very much for letting me know that my plasma drop incident was in a book > called " Big Bombers of WW II" I'll try and get a copy after I get my > hip replaced. It was quite a mission. The controls for the radar set was > in the rear of the aircraft and I spent a good part of the mission > crawling through the tunnel to tune it up and get back up front to the > navigator's position. Of course I had to be in the nose for the drop. > The pilot and I were put in for awards but we never got them. The > paperwork was lost. I had a great pilot who got out of the service. If > I get a copy of the story, I'll see if I can locate him and sent it to > him. I know he became a judge in Cincinnati. What navigation school did > your dad go through? Thanks again. Hal Sussskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 02:43:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:43:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) FW: Metko, Earl D. References: <3A891EC4.8297.14742D@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c0962f$e0061c20$b48f4d0c@netzero> My father suffered a stroke at McDill. The medical people, Doctors and orderlies said he was fine and that he had just had a couple too many beers down at the fish camp. By the time I got him home and ultimately to a real hospital, I found out that he had probably had a series of strokes during the whole 50 mile trip back to Lakeland. That was the beginning of the end for dad. I went through the same VA hassle . My advice, start calling your Senator, various House members , the Governor, and the President if need be. Don"t give up. State your case plainly and document every letter and phone conversation. Some of these guys we elected actually do work for a living, or, failing that; if you raise a big enough stink and do it loudly you may find that "exception #22" his mysteriously appeared. Good luck! I know what you are going through. Lloyd Grant--- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) FW: Metko, Earl D. > > Can anyone help John Sakis with his VA Hospital question? > Please send any reply to the list and to John at: > JSackis@cooperlighting.com > > Thanks! > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: "Sackis, John" > To: "'glm@303rdBGA.com'" > Subject: FW: Metko, Earl D. > Date sent: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:22:43 -0600 > > I got permission from Earl's wife, Betty, to give you > more information on him. Earl suffered several heart attacks in addition to > his stroke. He is doing better but still cannot be released. He has some > limited awareness but also has a trache tube in his throat. He is a Medicare > (only) patient and is in a limited care hospital in Chicago. He will have to > leave there soon and be placed in an extended care facility. His family has > been told that Hines VA Hospital cannot take him! They claim that they > cannot take a trache patient. It seems to me that the VA should be able to > do something for him. He has been on a partial disability pension due to > wounds received over Europe. He was decorated and has at least one Purple > Heart. Would anyone in your organization have any idea how to improve his > chances to get better care through the VA. Earl is not a member of any > veteran's organization (that I know of). I will contact the VFW for hints > from them (I am a member as a result of my tour as a door gunner in Vietnam) > but they may not be able or willing to help. > > Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! > > John G. Sackis > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 02:51:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:51:41 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People References: <16013-3A89B84A-7441@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000e01c09631$107c0120$3af833cf@richards> Hi Hal; This is Spider good to hear you mention Alison Brooks ,he was the second Commander of the First Scouting Force where I flew the P51 on my second tour. I have seen him at several Scout Reunions, he lives up in Washington State. Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The English People > Wasn't Alison Brooks with that outfit? Also Jack Ilfrey, the last I > heard, lives about 30 miles down the road from Austin, Texas. Wasn't he > one of the early flying sergeants? Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 02:57:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:57:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <003401c09631$e698a060$b48f4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C09607.F8855900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Take cover, here he goes again." Were flight crews issued side arms for self defense if they had to bail = out over hostile territory. A friend told me that his father and crew = had to bail out during a mission to Germany and that side arms were = stored in a box on the plane to be issued if the eventuality arose. ( = sounds a bit far fetched ). My dad used to carry an enormous Bowie = knife. He continued to carry it with him on the B-47 missions after the = Russians stopped being our allies. Lloyd. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C09607.F8855900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Take cover, here he goes = again."
 
Were flight crews issued side arms for = self defense=20 if they had to bail out over hostile territory.  A friend told me = that his=20 father and crew had to bail out during a mission to Germany and that = side arms=20 were stored in a box on the plane to be issued if the eventuality arose. = (=20 sounds a bit far fetched ). My dad used to carry an enormous Bowie = knife. =20 He continued to carry it with him on the B-47 missions after the = Russians=20 stopped being our allies.  Lloyd.
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C09607.F8855900-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 03:24:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:24:04 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <20010213.212405.-212031.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, we carried the 45 in a shoulder holster. At that time (1945) we needed ;protection against the civilian population In the brief period that I was there they must have issued the side arms two or three times. Then they would pick them up claiming that they were causing more problems that they were worth. However we carried them most of the time. I also carried a large knife that my father made for me out of a saw blade. I still have it. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 03:32:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:32:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #156 - 16 msgs Gereman Feelings Message-ID: <51.76c421e.27bb564b@aol.com> I had a rather amusing experience with a former German soldier just after I graduated from college in 1964. I was assigned to the Bureau of Public Roads in Arlington, Va. The day after I reported for duty another new engineer reported. From his guttural accent I immediately identified his nationality. He asked me,"Vat ver you doing during the var?" (I know the words are spelled with a 'W' but he use a 'V') I told him that I was trying to bomb him and asked what he was doing. He said "I vas trying to shoot you down." We became very good friends and downed a few 'cold ones' during the two years I spent in that office. If he bore any animosity toward me, it never showed. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 06:34:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:34:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <20010213.212405.-212031.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <001d01c09650$396f00e0$7b184e0c@netzero> Bill, What kind of problems? If you don't mind elaborating a little on this. I have fired a .45 and unless you are well trained in its use, or at pretty close range, you might as well hope the noise scares the enemy to death because he has a pretty fair chance of not getting hit. I would prefer a .44 revolver in dire circumstances; but first I would rather avoid "dire" circumstances. :-) Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > Lloyd, we carried the 45 in a shoulder holster. At that time (1945) we > needed ;protection against the civilian population In the brief period > that I was there they must have issued the side arms two or three times. > Then they would pick them up claiming that they were causing more > problems that they were worth. However we carried them most of the time. > I also carried a large knife that my father made for me out of a saw > blade. I still have it. > Regards, > Bill Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 13:01:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:01:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: I personalliy wore my .45 in front as extra flak protection....one couldn't be too safe up there. I recall that we had to surrender our weapons per executive order after a Christmastime suicide in the barracks. Didn't make sense then or now. Cheers, Bob Hand. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 21:00:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:00:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" Message-ID: A fair question, but as you say, difficult to answer. On my first couple of raids, I thought about my counterpart in the air or on the ground...wondering if in the next wave of fighters or wall of flak we 'd cancel each other out. I think I stopped when one of the crew was hit and reality woke me up. I always dreaded the thought of becoming a POW as there were no returnees at that time. And as far as hand-to-hand combat was concerned, I don't know where the ground troops got the nuts and bolts bravery to deal with it. Bombing from five miles away bears no resemblance, fighters and flak notwithstanding. It used to grit me off seeing German POWs wandering around the base earning money while some poor GI who went AWOL a couple of hours was being led around in chains by a rifle toting MP. War is war, I guess, and whether we learned anything from #2, who knows. One thing for sure, the next one will be decidedly different. Peace (please!) and....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 13 21:06:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:06:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-29 Message-ID: A 29 came into the base at Ardmore while I was there doing RTU. Up to that time none of us had ever seen one that close. I happened to see the pilot walking around and asked what it was like flying a giant aircraft like that, and he said, "Waaalll, it's somethin' like settin' on the front porch, flying a house." Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 14:11:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:11:28 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Air Traffic Con Troll. Message-ID: <000701c09694$0b9f7660$10c17ad5@n0i6c5> Thank you for brightening my day with this one, I thought is so funny !! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 14:23:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:23:27 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English people......re Jack Ilfrey Message-ID: <000801c09694$0f29d5a0$10c17ad5@n0i6c5> Hal, Jack Ilfrey is a lovely friend of mine. Jack now lives in San Antonio he is 82 years young this July , and is still editing the 20th FG quarterly Newsletter called 'Kings Cliffe'. I usually ring him up every few months for a chat. He has such a wonderful sense of humour, and I always am sure of coming off the phone having spoken to him feeling how lucky I am to know Jack. Luv, Moofy From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 16:35:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:35:34 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <31.10757751.27bc0dd6@aol.com> mine was issued before it flight and turned in after return from mission. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 16:35:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:35:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: Message-ID: <000f01c096a4$2e167300$dc1b4e0c@netzero> Bob, Somehow I anticipated what you said in your reply as one of the "problems" Bill Runnels hinted at. I can envision other problems. When you guys went a mission your flight gear was issued out (ie. parachutes, maps, etc.) and checked back in when you got back. I wonder why side arms were not treated equally. I also wonder if the Reg.s permitted you to carry your own personal defense weapons (ie. Bowie knives, personal hand guns et al). Needless to say, the military operates in sometimes very mysterious ways and regulations are often concieved of by people who earned their Purple Hearts from getting paper cuts and carpel tunnel syndrome. If you , or anyone else might care to elaborate further on this topic, I would appreciate it because I want this aspect of my research to be as clear as possible. Here's my personal annecdote of military genius: I took basic training at Ft. Campbell, Ky. It was Summertime and the days were sweltering. During a forced march training session an overweight trainee had a heart attack and died. The conclusion was that this poor guy died as a result of exhaustion, overweight, and dehydration. The genius solution to this problem was to up the dosage of salt tablets and add salt to the water in the lister bags put in the training areas. The direct result of this was a huge breakdown of morale amongst us "trainees", a lucrative black market in spare canteens, and some very effective combat training over who got a piece of the ice that our leaders so thoughtfully included in each lister bag of sea water. :- ) Lloyd. (draftee, Vietnam era). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > I personalliy wore my .45 in front as extra flak protection....one couldn't > be too safe up there. I recall that we had to surrender our weapons per > executive order after a Christmastime suicide in the barracks. Didn't make > sense then or now. Cheers, Bob Hand. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 17:18:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:18:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" References: Message-ID: <002201c096aa$1cf997e0$dc1b4e0c@netzero> Bob, part of the reason for me asking this question, perhaps a significant part, is philosophic and hinges on the moral concept of the term "duty". In WWII there were concrete moral precepts that defined duty on all sides. Although I despise the underlying reasons of our enemy in this war, it is clear to me that morally, every man was doing his duty. It is the word "duty" that the issue becomes cloudy. (ie. following orders). You could write a book on the subject. In Vietnam the issue was'nt cloudy, it went from murky to abysmal. We were doing our "duty". American soldiers were percieved in the same context as German and Japanese soldiers were in WWII. ( I did not serve in Vietnam, I was sent to Germany). I studied International Affairs at Florida State University and I was a firm believer in the Marshall Plan ( a man of great insight was General Marshall--- and, McArthur). I hope that future wars will be fought and won by Pepsi, McDonalds, and Microsoft etc.etc.etc. before they ever have a chance to devolve into carnage. Sorry to be so long winded, but I hope this helps to explain the purpose of my question. L.G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The "Enemy" > A fair question, but as you say, difficult to answer. On my first couple of > raids, I thought about my counterpart in the air or on the ground...wondering > if in the next wave of fighters or wall of flak we 'd cancel each other out. > I think I stopped when one of the crew was hit and reality woke me up. I > always dreaded the thought of becoming a POW as there were no returnees at > that time. And as far as hand-to-hand combat was concerned, I don't know > where the ground troops got the nuts and bolts bravery to deal with it. > Bombing from five miles away bears no resemblance, fighters and flak > notwithstanding. It used to grit me off seeing German POWs wandering > around the base earning money while some poor GI who went AWOL a couple of > hours was being led around in chains by a rifle toting MP. War is war, I > guess, and whether we learned anything from #2, who knows. One thing for > sure, the next one will be decidedly different. Peace (please!) > and....Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 17:26:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:26:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <31.10757751.27bc0dd6@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c096ab$35ffbb60$dc1b4e0c@netzero> That makes sense, Spec. Do you think you might have used it if the situation demanded? ( don't answer if you would rather not). My father probably would have, but he was a product of a rural Texas up-bringing. This is not to imply that he had no morality. Whose to say, but those who actually confronted such a situation. My dad never had to. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > mine was issued before it flight and turned in after return from mission. > spec > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 17:37:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:37:04 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <20010214.113705.-443165.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, incoming reports indicated that airmen were being killed by farmers with pitchforks etc. You have fired the 45 ( HA)..... In my case I would have to depend on the noise because I sure could not hit anything with it. At one time I understand they gave a choice, the 45 or a carbine. I could have done much better with the carbine. We cleaned a lot of cosmoline from 45's. At times I think they would reissue the gun just to have us remove the cosmoline before they shipped them elsewhere (HA). Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 17:42:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:42:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) In-Reply-To: <002101c095c9$4ee26980$1c8f4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A8A7D4E.13637.11ABD75@localhost> Since a few weeks ago, it was suggested that there be some effort to create Squadron histories, I looked at the microfilm that I have for the 360th BS. The microfilm has the beginnings of such a history for that Squadron (and thus similar things might be found on the respective microfilm for the other Squadrons), covering the time periods when the Squadron was formed in the US, and the first year at Molesworth. Anyway, as a start, I made a paper copy of the info on the microfilm, and started trying to type it into the computer (the copies are too poor to use an OCR). I am VERY slow at typing, so this effort could take me a long time, but I have a beginning, which I found interesting. THe first section that I copied was an introduction written by a Master Sgt McCabe. It tells of the experiences of the ground echelons during this early period. I found this interesting because most of what you read about the war is usually from the perspective of the air crews, and this is a different view. Anyway, for anyone who is interested, you can read it at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/360-hist.html I don't have this linked to my main web page yet, but it will be soon. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 18:23:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:23:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <3A8A7D4E.13637.11ABD75@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c096b3$4de5ebc0$e8194e0c@netzero> Bill, bless your heart, old man. Ask Gary, it starts with one man and expands. I will contact my friend in Balitimore, Donald Kehne and anyone else associated with the 427th who would like to participate. Perhaps through mutual cooperation we can take an active role in helping to preserve the history of the 303rd BG.( and with luck and perseverance add to it). Now I am off to read your material. Thank you. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > > Since a few weeks ago, it was suggested that there be some effort to create Squadron > histories, I looked at the microfilm that I have for the 360th BS. The microfilm has the > beginnings of such a history for that Squadron (and thus similar things might be found > on the respective microfilm for the other Squadrons), covering the time periods when > the Squadron was formed in the US, and the first year at Molesworth. > Anyway, as a start, I made a paper copy of the info on the microfilm, and started > trying to type it into the computer (the copies are too poor to use an OCR). I am > VERY slow at typing, so this effort could take me a long time, but I have a beginning, > which I found interesting. > THe first section that I copied was an introduction written by a Master Sgt McCabe. > It tells of the experiences of the ground echelons during this early period. I found this > interesting because most of what you read about the war is usually from the > perspective of the air crews, and this is a different view. > Anyway, for anyone who is interested, you can read it at: > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/360-hist.html > > I don't have this linked to my main web page yet, but it will be soon. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 18:58:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:58:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <20010214.113705.-443165.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000d01c096b8$19486e60$e8194e0c@netzero> Bill, when I got back to the States and on my way home I was followed at 3AM out of the Trailways bus station in Atlanta by six or seven not too patriotic looking guys, it was dark and deserted, I was dead tired and anxious to get lodging (although I had the money I was turned away by two hotels close to the bus station). These guys offered to help "carry" my duffle bag. Under some clothes at the top of my duffle bag I had smuggled a practice grenade to give to my kid brother as a souvenier. The damned thing was painted in some silly light blue color, but when I brought it out and showed it to my compassionate entourage they suddenly found obligations elsewhere. A few minutes later a taxi pulled up beside me (where are they when you need one?) the driver was a black guy named George, a real veteran of Vietnam. He gave me a ride to his brothers house and a clean bed and a good nights sleep and breakfast. They would not accept any payment. I will never forget that, and I wish that I knew where they were today to thank them. A grenade might have been a viable "side arm" and you would likely never have had to use it. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > Lloyd, incoming reports indicated that airmen were being killed by > farmers with pitchforks etc. You have fired the 45 ( HA)..... In my case > I would have to depend on the noise because I sure could not hit anything > with it. At one time I understand they gave a choice, the 45 or a > carbine. I could have done much better with the carbine. We cleaned a lot > of cosmoline from 45's. At times I think they would reissue the gun just > to have us remove the cosmoline before they shipped them elsewhere (HA). > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 19:15:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:15:57 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, .45s Message-ID: <46.109e8b43.27bc336d@aol.com> I carried my . 45 on each mission and had it when I was shot down over France. I may still be buried in the field that I came down in near St. Omer. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 19:39:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:39:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, .45s References: <46.109e8b43.27bc336d@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c096bd$cc861ae0$e8194e0c@netzero> Bill Dallas, your message came across as "I" was still buried... I sincerely am grateful that "you" were not. Was there a reason that you saw a necessity to get rid of the weapon? Apparently, the basic question has been answered, you were issued side arms to carry into combat for personal defense in the event that you had to bail out. (My dad was issued a .38 revolver on his B-47 missions which he carried in a shoulder holster.) Note: (please never address a question I ask, if the question is offensive to you in anyway. Ignored questions generally get the message across). Thanks , Bill, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, .45s > I carried my . 45 on each mission and had it when I was shot down over > France. I may still be buried in the field that I came down in near St. Omer. > Bill Dallas > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 19:49:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:49:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J H Grant" 's message of Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:26:03 -0500 Message-ID: <7278-3A8AE148-464@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> LLoyd I was in an unusual situaton on a rough mission and I didn't have a sidarm with me. Whether I would have used it or not I've often wondered. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 20:43:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:43:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <7278-3A8AE148-464@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000501c096c6$d8841640$778f4d0c@netzero> Hal, I think from the overall response to this question it is generally accepted that at certain times side arms were issued. Whether they could have, or would have been used to any effective purpose remains mostly unanswered. In my opinion, displaying a weapon such as a .45 automatic in many circumstances would have only led to a less than desired result from the overwhelming firepower of the opposition. Bill Dallas' reply that he buried his .45 in some field in France implied that discretion may have been the better part of valor. I stand by what I said as regards angry civilians , pitchforks, and lynch mobs. Self preservation would take precedence for me when ever possible, but no one has offered a scenario from first hand regarding confrontations of the nature we have discussed. ( believe it or not there is a reason that I am asking these questions now. Later generations may have to relie on the Official Version ala venues like the History Channel). The questions may seem trivial, but I am saving every comment you fellows make. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > LLoyd I was in > an unusual situaton on a rough mission and I didn't have a sidarm with > me. Whether I would have used it or not I've often wondered. Hal > Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 21:40:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:40:41 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <20010214.154042.-264353.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, the grenade would have been better for me. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 21:59:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:59:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <20010214.154042.-264353.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000601c096d1$651e7500$fc8e4d0c@netzero> Cheers, Bill. Darn glad you never need the like. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > Lloyd, the grenade would have been better for me. > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 22:45:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:45:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) References: <3A8A7D4E.13637.11ABD75@localhost> Message-ID: <001501c096d7$d855a380$fc8e4d0c@netzero> Bill, how were you able to come by this narrative? I am glad to have had the opportunity to read it. Not many ground personel visit the discussion forum, and in my opinion that is a shame as they have a wealth of information to contribute. Not everyone that fought in this war was engaged in combat, but without the support of these very dedicated men we could not have won it. ( my opinion is very likely is shared). Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A suggestion for the history of the 303rd BG(H) > > Since a few weeks ago, it was suggested that there be some effort to create Squadron > histories, I looked at the microfilm that I have for the 360th BS. The microfilm has the > beginnings of such a history for that Squadron (and thus similar things might be found > on the respective microfilm for the other Squadrons), covering the time periods when > the Squadron was formed in the US, and the first year at Molesworth. > Anyway, as a start, I made a paper copy of the info on the microfilm, and started > trying to type it into the computer (the copies are too poor to use an OCR). I am > VERY slow at typing, so this effort could take me a long time, but I have a beginning, > which I found interesting. > THe first section that I copied was an introduction written by a Master Sgt McCabe. > It tells of the experiences of the ground echelons during this early period. I found this > interesting because most of what you read about the war is usually from the > perspective of the air crews, and this is a different view. > Anyway, for anyone who is interested, you can read it at: > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/360-hist.html > > I don't have this linked to my main web page yet, but it will be soon. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 2 07:46:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:46:55 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] jamieq@etbyte.net Message-ID: <003001c08cec$61a5cc00$af8e9840@dlinks.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C08CCA.C9638980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For some years I have been interested in the air war over Europe mostly the 8th A.F.back in1076-79 I had a friends membership,moved to N.J.and working hard to raise my children did not have time BUT now two in = college and the others working & me retired due to a stroke can do what I always wanted Francisco E.Quinones ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C08CCA.C9638980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For  some years I have been interested in the = air war=20 over Europe mostly
the 8th A.F.back in1076-79 I had a friends = membership,moved to=20 N.J.and
working hard to raise my children did not have time = BUT now=20 two in college
and the others working & me retired due to a = stroke can do=20 what I always
wanted        = Francisco=20 E.Quinones
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C08CCA.C9638980-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 14 23:58:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:58:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] jamieq@etbyte.net References: <003001c08cec$61a5cc00$af8e9840@dlinks.com> Message-ID: <000f01c096e1$fad45000$fc8e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C096B8.10962C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome, Francisco! You will find some good friends here. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: FRANCISCO QUI=D1ONES=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:46 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] jamieq@etbyte.net For some years I have been interested in the air war over Europe = mostly the 8th A.F.back in1076-79 I had a friends membership,moved to N.J.and working hard to raise my children did not have time BUT now two in = college and the others working & me retired due to a stroke can do what I = always wanted Francisco E.Quinones ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C096B8.10962C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome, Francisco!  You will find = some good=20 friends here.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 FRANCISCO=20 QUI=D1ONES
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 = 2:46=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] jamieq@etbyte.net

For  some years I have been interested in the = air war=20 over Europe mostly
the 8th A.F.back in1076-79 I had a friends = membership,moved=20 to N.J.and
working hard to raise my children did not have = time BUT now=20 two in college
and the others working & me retired due to a = stroke can=20 do what I always
wanted        = Francisco=20 E.Quinones
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C096B8.10962C80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 01:45:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:45:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere Message-ID: --part1_a8.1126e818.27bc8ec8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere --part1_a8.1126e818.27bc8ec8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere --part1_a8.1126e818.27bc8ec8_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 04:16:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J H Grant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere References: Message-ID: <000901c09706$06673940$86904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C096DC.1B68D300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Al. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thor542086@aol.com=20 To: Susskind@webtv.net=20 Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere Click here: We Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C096DC.1B68D300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Al.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thor542086@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, = 2001 8:45=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out = We=20 Remember Bonn by Al Dussliere

Click here: We = Remember=20 Bonn by Al Dussliere ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C096DC.1B68D300-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 18:29:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:29:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew in put Message-ID: <002e01c0977d$397a5ac0$58bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0974A.EE274920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I"m one of your ground crew {A/C Supply]. I don't do much "talking" but = I do a lot of "listening". When I do talk I usually talk to much. The = side arms issue is very interesting we got in some survival " 'chute = packs".=20 Looked like the were worn on the back. Heavy black felt with cut outs = for a machete [which I had in my desk drawer until I was shipped out in = June '45], British tin ration can, [which I still have.] little tin box = with line hooks flys and small sinkers] The .45 was missing along with = the two clips [ rumor had it that one clip had solids and the other = shot.--did the .45 have a clip in it too?????] We were very thnkful when a replacement aircraft came in - we got the = blue barracks bag of "K" rations that came with the crew. Almost ever = man had 3-4 bsxs in his desk drawer or on the back corner. Many the time = I have gone to the office to type a letter at home and had a snack if = bacon and cheese along with a hot drink.. Never could stand those = dad-burned Chelsea cigarrettes that came in some. Since I know you don't want to hear that British spark plugs [RS19R - = Lodge & RC19R -K.L.G.] were authorized to be used in R-1820-97 & 65 = engines OR Tube Assy - Glycol System 0108-65-6691-19 was local Mfg. So I will now say "ta-ta chappie". THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk Wood River, NE -68883-9164 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0974A.EE274920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I"m one of your ground crew {A/C = Supply]. I don't=20 do much "talking" but I do a lot of "listening". When I do talk I = usually talk=20 to much.  The side arms issue is very interesting we got in some = survival "=20 'chute packs".
Looked like the were worn on the back. = Heavy black=20 felt with cut outs for a machete [which I had in my desk drawer until I = was=20 shipped out in June '45], British tin ration can, [which I still have.] = little=20 tin box with line hooks flys and small sinkers] The .45 was missing = along with=20 the two clips [ rumor had it that one clip had solids and the other = shot.--did=20 the .45 have a clip in it too?????]
 
We were very thnkful when a=20 replacement aircraft came in - we got the blue barracks bag of "K" = rations=20 that came with the crew. Almost ever man had 3-4 bsxs in his desk drawer = or on=20 the back corner. Many the time I have gone to the office to type a = letter at=20 home and had a snack if bacon and cheese along with a hot drink..  = Never=20 could stand those dad-burned Chelsea cigarrettes that came in = some.
 
Since I know you don't want to hear = that British=20 spark plugs [RS19R - Lodge & RC19R -K.L.G.] were authorized to be = used in=20 R-1820-97 & 65 engines OR Tube Assy - Glycol System = 0108-65-6691-19 was=20 local Mfg.
 
So I will now say "ta-ta = chappie".
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0974A.EE274920-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 19:04:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:04:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew in put References: <002e01c0977d$397a5ac0$58bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000b01c09782$208c9280$db8e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09758.342DB1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Paulk, you might be surrprised to know that there are a number of us = "new guys" that are very interested in having you and other ground crew = types share your annecdotes and experiences. I for one hope you will = continue to pipe in more often. Thanks. Lloyd Grant ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground crew in put I"m one of your ground crew {A/C Supply]. I don't do much "talking" = but I do a lot of "listening". When I do talk I usually talk to much. = The side arms issue is very interesting we got in some survival " 'chute = packs".=20 Looked like the were worn on the back. Heavy black felt with cut outs = for a machete [which I had in my desk drawer until I was shipped out in = June '45], British tin ration can, [which I still have.] little tin box = with line hooks flys and small sinkers] The .45 was missing along with = the two clips [ rumor had it that one clip had solids and the other = shot.--did the .45 have a clip in it too?????] We were very thnkful when a replacement aircraft came in - we got the = blue barracks bag of "K" rations that came with the crew. Almost ever = man had 3-4 bsxs in his desk drawer or on the back corner. Many the time = I have gone to the office to type a letter at home and had a snack if = bacon and cheese along with a hot drink.. Never could stand those = dad-burned Chelsea cigarrettes that came in some. Since I know you don't want to hear that British spark plugs [RS19R - = Lodge & RC19R -K.L.G.] were authorized to be used in R-1820-97 & 65 = engines OR Tube Assy - Glycol System 0108-65-6691-19 was local Mfg. So I will now say "ta-ta chappie". THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk Wood River, NE -68883-9164 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09758.342DB1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Paulk, you might be surrprised to = know that=20 there are a number of us "new guys" that are very interested in having = you and=20 other ground crew types share your annecdotes and experiences.  I = for one=20 hope you will continue to pipe in more often.  Thanks.  Lloyd=20 Grant
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Thursday, February 15, = 2001 1:29=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ground = crew in=20 put

I"m one of your ground crew {A/C = Supply]. I don't=20 do much "talking" but I do a lot of "listening". When I do talk I = usually talk=20 to much.  The side arms issue is very interesting we got in some = survival=20 " 'chute packs".
Looked like the were worn on the = back. Heavy=20 black felt with cut outs for a machete [which I had in my desk drawer = until I=20 was shipped out in June '45], British tin ration can, [which I still = have.]=20 little tin box with line hooks flys and small sinkers] The .45 was = missing=20 along with the two clips [ rumor had it that one clip had solids and = the other=20 shot.--did the .45 have a clip in it too?????]
 
We were very thnkful when a=20 replacement aircraft came in - we got the blue barracks bag of = "K"=20 rations that came with the crew. Almost ever man had 3-4 bsxs in his = desk=20 drawer or on the back corner. Many the time I have gone to the office = to type=20 a letter at home and had a snack if bacon and cheese along with a hot=20 drink..  Never could stand those dad-burned Chelsea cigarrettes = that came=20 in some.
 
Since I know you don't want to hear = that British=20 spark plugs [RS19R - Lodge & RC19R -K.L.G.] were authorized to be = used in=20 R-1820-97 & 65 engines OR Tube Assy - Glycol System = 0108-65-6691-19=20 was local Mfg.
 
So I will now say "ta-ta = chappie".
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09758.342DB1E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 04:09:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ben Biddington) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:09:10 +1300 Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish club Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C09772.0434A9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am desperately trying to find the website for the Goldfish Club? Is there such a thing? If so could you please mail me at: jettb@voyager.co.nz I would like to become a member, since I recently ditched! Thanks, Jeff. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C09772.0434A9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = all, I=20 am desperately trying to find the website for the = Goldfish=20 Club? Is there such a thing? If so could you please mail me = at:
 
       &nbs= p; =20 jettb@voyager.co.nz=
 
I = would like to=20 become a member, since I recently ditched!
Thanks,=20 Jeff.
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C09772.0434A9C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 20:37:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:37:47 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish club Message-ID: You aren't going to get off that easy Jeff! What happened to force you down? Details please! Kevin >From: "Ben Biddington" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish club >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:09:10 +1300 > >Hi all, I am desperately trying to find the website for the Goldfish Club? >Is there such a thing? If so could you please mail me at: > > jettb@voyager.co.nz > >I would like to become a member, since I recently ditched! >Thanks, Jeff. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 20:45:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:45:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish club References: Message-ID: <000b01c09790$311f6600$db8e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09766.4370D3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might run across a few veteran members of the Goldfish Club here, = but I doubt you will find a website. Maybe you should start one :- ) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben Biddington=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:09 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish club Hi all, I am desperately trying to find the website for the Goldfish = Club? Is there such a thing? If so could you please mail me at: jettb@voyager.co.nz I would like to become a member, since I recently ditched! Thanks, Jeff. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09766.4370D3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You might run across a few veteran = members of the=20 Goldfish Club here, but I doubt you will find a website.  Maybe you = should=20 start one :- )
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ben Biddington
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, = 2001 11:09=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] gold fish = club

Hi = all, I=20 am desperately trying to find the website for the = Goldfish=20 Club? Is there such a thing? If so could you please mail = me=20 at:
 
       &nbs= p; =20 jettb@voyager.co.nz=
 
I = would like to=20 become a member, since I recently ditched!
Thanks,=20 Jeff.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C09766.4370D3E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 21:09:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:09:29 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <39.10b179ae.27bd9f89@aol.com> Lloyd, I carried 2 or 3 45s all the time and I knew how to use them. One in a shoulder holster and two in my coverall pockets. The best one I had was made by Singer sewing machine. I kept the Colts and turned the Singer in. That was one of my many mistakes. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 22:17:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:17:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. References: <39.10b179ae.27bd9f89@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c0979d$0dcbe5e0$db8e4d0c@netzero> I guess there were no enforcable rules as regards the weapons you could carry for personal defense. And, I guess a hand grenade would be inpractical. cheers, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>; Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > Lloyd, I carried 2 or 3 45s all the time and I knew how to use them. One in a > shoulder holster and two in my coverall pockets. The best one I had was made > by Singer sewing machine. I kept the Colts and turned the Singer in. That > was one of my many mistakes. > Jack > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 15 23:46:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:46:35 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <3d.7855c09.27bdc45b@aol.com> as was expectedyup. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 00:06:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:06:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab Message-ID: <002201c097ac$41b4a220$db8e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C09782.57335B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When did the Air Force stop painting the planes olive drab? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C09782.57335B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When did the Air Force stop painting = the planes=20 olive drab?  Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C09782.57335B20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 01:53:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:53:29 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab References: <002201c097ac$41b4a220$db8e4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <001701c097bb$43f3bee0$56f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09778.34686360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lloyd: In mid 1944 they removed all paint to reduce weight and carry more = bombs. also the paint was drag on the skin. Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab When did the Air Force stop painting the planes olive drab? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09778.34686360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lloyd:
 In mid 1944 they removed all = paint to reduce=20 weight and carry more  bombs. also the paint was  drag on the=20 skin.
 
        Spider=20 Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd=20 J Grant
Sent: Thursday, February 15, = 2001 4:06=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or = Olive=20 drab

When did the Air Force stop painting = the planes=20 olive drab?  Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09778.34686360-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 04:00:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:00:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab References: <002201c097ac$41b4a220$db8e4d0c@netzero> <001701c097bb$43f3bee0$56f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000901c097cc$fdf3a6a0$b0904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C097A3.13586F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Dick. Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick Smith=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab Lloyd: In mid 1944 they removed all paint to reduce weight and carry more = bombs. also the paint was drag on the skin. Spider Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lloyd J Grant=20 To: 303rd Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver or Olive drab When did the Air Force stop painting the planes olive drab? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C097A3.13586F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Dick. Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dick = Smith
Sent: Thursday, February 15, = 2001 8:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = Silver or Olive=20 drab

Lloyd:
 In mid 1944 they removed all = paint to=20 reduce weight and carry more  bombs. also the paint was  = drag on the=20 skin.
 
        Spider=20 Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lloyd J Grant
Sent: Thursday, February 15, = 2001 4:06=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Silver = or Olive=20 drab

When did the Air Force stop = painting the planes=20 olive drab?  = Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C097A3.13586F00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 04:26:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:26:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <001401c097d0$a337aaa0$b0904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C097A6.B8CECDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, fellows, here I go again. Having a side arm was one thing, but = I'll bet having a reliable parachute might have taken priority. I don't = see much said about "parachutes", but for some of you they were the most = valuable equipment you were issued. I would like to know how they were worn, where they were stowed in = relation to each crew member ( particularly the ball turret gunners and = tail gunners---awkward places to egress from in dire straights), was it = common practice to have the chute attached, or stowed close by? What = was the relationship of the flight crew to the parachute riggers, did = everyone have the same chute for each mission, or were they randomly = issued? What kind of training was given in the use of one? Did you have = to jump in training? In your opinion(s) were they considered reliable = (ie more opened than did not)? I hope some riggers will jump in with = some remarks too. As ever, your comments, suggestions, input, and = opinions regarding this subject are greatly valued. I hope the = questions are valid enough to elicit response. Thank you all. Lloyd = Grant. ( ps. were they made of nylon, or some other fabric?) ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C097A6.B8CECDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, fellows, here I go again.  = Having a side=20 arm was one thing, but I'll bet having a reliable parachute might have = taken=20 priority.  I don't see much said about "parachutes", but for some = of you=20 they were the most valuable equipment you were issued.
I would like to know how they were = worn, where they=20 were stowed in relation to each crew member ( particularly the ball = turret=20 gunners and tail gunners---awkward places to egress from in dire = straights), was=20 it common practice to have the chute attached, or stowed close by?  = What=20 was the relationship of the flight crew to the parachute riggers, did = everyone=20 have the same chute for each mission, or were they randomly issued? What = kind of=20 training was given in the use of one?  Did you have to jump in=20 training?  In your opinion(s) were they considered reliable (ie = more opened=20 than did not)?  I hope some riggers will jump in with some remarks=20 too.  As ever, your comments, suggestions, input, and opinions = regarding=20 this subject are  greatly valued.  I hope the questions are = valid=20 enough to elicit response.  Thank you all.  Lloyd Grant. ( = ps. =20 were they made of nylon, or some other = fabric?)
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C097A6.B8CECDA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 05:49:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:49:41 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes In-Reply-To: <001401c097d0$a337aaa0$b0904d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010215194941.0092c8b0@ilhawaii.net> After having a side window of my tuttet shot out by flak I kept my chute in the ball turret with one snap connected. I decided I had plenty of room. Jim Walling At 11:26 PM 2/15/01 -0500, you wrote: >>>> ArialWell, fellows, here I go again. Having a side arm was one thing, but I'll bet having a reliable parachute might have taken priority. I don't see much said about "parachutes", but for some of you they were the most valuable equipment you were issued. I would like to know how they were worn, where they were stowed in relation to each crew member ( particularly the ball turret gunners and tail gunners---awkward places to egress from in dire straights), was it common practice to have the chute attached, or stowed close by? What was the relationship of the flight crew to the parachute riggers, did everyone have the same chute for each mission, or were they randomly issued? What kind of training was given in the use of one? Did you have to jump in training? In your opinion(s) were they considered reliable (ie more opened than did not)? I hope some riggers will jump in with some remarks too. As ever, your comments, suggestions, input, and opinions regarding this subject are greatly valued. I hope the questions are valid enough to elicit response. Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. ( ps. were they made of nylon, or some other fabric?) <<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 06:18:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:18:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <3.0.5.32.20010215194941.0092c8b0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <000f01c097e0$3e9cb620$b0904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C097B6.541B6F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, thanks. I can't imagine what it must have been like in a ball = turret. What an act of faith and guts it must have been to get into = that place. I have looked at one close up when the Aluminum Overcast = came to town. Whew! Could you get out of there without assistance? = Don't answer if you would rather not. Very best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jim Walling=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes After having a side window of my tuttet shot out by flak I kept my = chute in the ball turret with one snap connected. I decided I had plenty = of room. Jim Walling At 11:26 PM 2/15/01 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Well, fellows, here I go again. Having a side arm was one thing, but = I'll bet having a reliable parachute might have taken priority. I don't = see much said about "parachutes", but for some of you they were the most = valuable equipment you were issued. I would like to know how they were worn, where they were stowed in = relation to each crew member ( particularly the ball turret gunners and = tail gunners---awkward places to egress from in dire straights), was it = common practice to have the chute attached, or stowed close by? What was = the relationship of the flight crew to the parachute riggers, did = everyone have the same chute for each mission, or were they randomly = issued? What kind of training was given in the use of one? Did you have = to jump in training? In your opinion(s) were they considered reliable = (ie more opened than did not)? I hope some riggers will jump in with = some remarks too. As ever, your comments, suggestions, input, and = opinions regarding this subject are greatly valued. I hope the questions = are valid enough to elicit response. Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. ( ps. = were they made of nylon, or some other fabric?) <<<< _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing = list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com = http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C097B6.541B6F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim, thanks.  I can't imagine what = it must=20 have been like in a ball turret.  What an act of faith and guts it = must=20 have been to get into that place.  I have looked at one close up = when the=20 Aluminum Overcast came to town.  Whew!  Could you get out of = there=20 without assistance?  Don't answer if you would rather not.  = Very best,=20 Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jim=20 Walling
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 12:49=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Parachutes

After having a side window of my tuttet shot out by = flak I kept=20 my chute in the ball turret with one snap connected. I decided I had = plenty of=20 room.
Jim Walling

At 11:26 PM 2/15/01 -0500, you wrote:=20
>>>>
Well, fellows, here I = go=20 again. Having a side arm was one thing, but I'll bet having a = reliable=20 parachute might have taken priority. I don't see much said about=20 "parachutes", but for some of you they were the most valuable = equipment you=20 were issued.
I would like to know how they were worn, where they = were=20 stowed in relation to each crew member ( particularly the ball = turret=20 gunners and tail gunners---awkward places to egress from in dire = straights),=20 was it common practice to have the chute attached, or stowed close = by? What=20 was the relationship of the flight crew to the parachute riggers, = did=20 everyone have the same chute for each mission, or were they randomly = issued?=20 What kind of training was given in the use of one? Did you have to = jump in=20 training? In your opinion(s) were they considered reliable (ie more = opened=20 than did not)? I hope some riggers will jump in with some remarks = too. As=20 ever, your comments, suggestions, input, and opinions regarding this = subject=20 are greatly valued. I hope the questions are valid enough to elicit=20 response. Thank you all. Lloyd Grant. ( ps. were they made of nylon, = or some=20 other=20 = fabric?)

<<<<


_______________________________________________=20 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C097B6.541B6F20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 06:44:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:44:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: <5b.11f39162.27be2665@cs.com> --part1_5b.11f39162.27be2665_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that the use of side arms would be almost totally useless against well trained military units deep in enemy territory. Eventually your ammunition will expire. With the range of B17s you were almost certain to be many miles inside enemy territory if your aircraft was downed. However, side arms may be of some use against undisciplined and random civilian attacks. John A. Jenkins --part1_5b.11f39162.27be2665_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      I believe that the use of side arms would be almost totally useless
against well trained military units deep in enemy territory.  Eventually your
ammunition will expire.  With the range of B17s you were almost certain to be
many miles inside enemy territory if your aircraft was downed.  However, side
arms may be of some use against undisciplined and random civilian attacks.

      John A. Jenkins   --part1_5b.11f39162.27be2665_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 13:55:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:55:58 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <20010216.075559.-344775.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, I placed my flak suit on the floor under my seat. The chute was positioned on the suit and never more than an arms length away. We were issued a different chute for each mission..I didn't have to use it but I don't remember questioning the reliability. Bill - bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 15:37:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:37:28 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <20010216.093731.-454335.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, a PS to my previous note, our training included classroom, exposure to rigging and a jump from a four foot high platform to learn to tumble on impact. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 15:49:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:49:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 15:50:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:50:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <68.c1f0c02.27bea657@aol.com> So did I, Jim--made a good arm rest. also carried the 45 on 35 missions and would have used it if needed. Bill Cartert From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 16:12:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:12:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] side arms. Message-ID: A barracksmate of mine, Cliff Muth, had a beautiful pistol he carried, a gift of his dad whom I recall was a police officer. Whether or not he carried this weapon on missions I don't know. Cheers, Happy Holiday......Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 16:34:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:34:02 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in "909" and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the bombardier's chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 16:53:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:53:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes Message-ID: So what kind of cigareetes did you smoke in the UK, if you smoked at all? Seems Chesterfields and Lucky Strikes were quite popular. How many packs could you get at a time? Did you buy them or were they supplierd by Uncle Sam? Did you ever smoke in your a/c after going going off oxygen? And if you quit smoking, when did you? >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. >Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:12:58 EST > >A barracksmate of mine, Cliff Muth, had a beautiful pistol he carried, a >gift >of his dad whom I recall was a police officer. Whether or not he carried >this weapon on missions I don't know. Cheers, Happy Holiday......Bob Hand > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 17:08:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:08:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <80.6f1defe.27beb89d@aol.com> Miserably poor training for the hazards of an actual jump. After the war I took a course with Jacques Istel the daddy of modern jumping and got a bang out of it....hell, it was from 4000 ft. and the air was nice and warm and below lay an area of soft sand and sawdust. It stopped when my jumping buddy broke his leg and his wife called my wife about "those damned fools we married!!!" Ah, well.....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 17:14:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:14:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <67.fce0a7f.27beb9f2@aol.com> The names SWITLIK, IRVIN & PIONEER come to mind as principal parachute makers. And somebody was always wanting you to send them an "old" parachute for the "silk". Our crew chief always had our chutes laid out under the wing covered by a tarp. It was up to each individual to see that he brought his own chute aboard. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 17:32:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:32:19 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #160 Smoking Message-ID: I smoked Lucky Strikes mostly and had no problem getting them but I paid for them myself. I did smoke while flying. I pulled my oxygen mask to one side, took a draw from my cigarette than went back on with the mask. I didn't quit smoking until 37 or so years later. Now I have empasema.Should have quit earlier. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 18:31:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:31:11 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes In-Reply-To: <000f01c097e0$3e9cb620$b0904d0c@netzero> References: <3.0.5.32.20010215194941.0092c8b0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010216083111.00924e70@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd, Actually, at 128 pounds I fit very well in a ball turret. To me it was the safest position on the plane. I was sitting on a piece of armor plate and surrounded by two 50 cal machine guns, a large computing sight and the turret mechanism. The one time my turret was frozen up and I was told to fly in the waist I was terrified. I looked out the big window at the flak bursting all around and the first thing I saw was a B-17 propeller flying toward the ground. I just read a posting from a pilot who seemed to have the same kind of experience: >>>> My worst mission was one in which I was bumped from my copilot's seat by a big shot from Group HQ and had to ride in the waist instead. I was disoriented by lack of forward vision, frustrated with inactivity and just plain scared. Joe Shuster 456th BG, 15th AF <<<<<<<< I would have had no trouble getting out of my turret if it was not jammed. all I would have had to do was bring the guns to a horizontal position so the turret door was outside the plane, open the door, release the safety belt and roll out. Once during phase training in Texas the door was apparently not latched properly and it blew off in flight. The only thing between me and the ground was a few thousand feet of air and the safety belt across the door. It did teach me to check the door latch when I entered the turret. Jim Walling At 01:18 AM 2/16/01 -0500, you wrote: >>>> ArialJim, thanks. I can't imagine what it must have been like in a ball turret. What an act of faith and guts it must have been to get into that place. I have looked at one close up when the Aluminum Overcast came to town. Whew! Could you get out of there without assistance? Don't answer if you would rather not. Very best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 19:30:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:30:46 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CIGARETTES Message-ID: <002201c0984e$f7045060$10bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0981C.AB55B140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable KEVIN - Probably like many a GI I never smoked till went into the = service. I tried a Chesterfield when working in a drug store in High = school --sicker than a dog. I started on Camel's and stuck with them = till I went Africa and then quit [ started up many times after = that--permanently in '81]. Wills Gold Flakes [English] was the closest = in flavor but not in strength. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0981C.AB55B140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
KEVIN - Probably like many a GI I never = smoked till=20 went into the service. I tried a Chesterfield when working in a drug = store in=20 High school --sicker than a dog. I started on Camel's and stuck with = them till I=20 went  Africa and then quit [ started up many times after = that--permanently=20 in '81]. Wills Gold Flakes [English] was the closest in flavor but not = in=20 strength.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0981C.AB55B140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 16 19:45:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:45:30 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PARACHUTE RIGGERS Message-ID: <002b01c09851$05612780$10bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0981E.BA0674C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it is worth - In the my list [ not complete] of 444th member I = found 6 MOS 620 =3D Parachute, rig & repair.=3D=3D2 deceased - 2 not = members of 303---2 members -Wesley R. Featherstone - 1704 Canary Dr. - = Edmond, OK --73034-----Tel 405-341-8185-----------------Vincent J. = Spring - 4229 NE 103rd PL - Seattle WA --98125 Tel ---206-525-8404 =20 THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0981E.BA0674C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For what it is worth - = In the my=20 list [ not complete] of 444th member I found 6 MOS 620 =3D Parachute, = rig &=20 repair.=3D=3D2 deceased - 2 not = members of 303---2=20 members -Wesley R. Featherstone - 1704 Canary Dr. - Edmond, OK = --73034-----Tel  = 405-341-8185-----------------Vincent J.=20 Spring - 4229 NE 103rd PL  - Seattle WA --98125  Tel ---206-525-8404  
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0981E.BA0674C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 00:24:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:24:12 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: Message-ID: <00b101c09877$f55cbe40$f80110ac@Betac.com> Bob- I recently got a Palm Beach newspaper that had a large front page article about your B-17 ride. AFter 56 years, it is hard to imagine what your emotions must have been. Well done, mate. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in "909" > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the bombardier's > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:15:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:15:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <20010216.093731.-454335.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <002e01c0988f$dc4db7c0$d4b34d0c@netzero> Mr. Runnels, I am (for once) speechless. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Lloyd, a PS to my previous note, our training included classroom, > exposure to rigging and a jump from a > four foot high platform to learn to tumble on impact. > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:39:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:39:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: Message-ID: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a parachute harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the general area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to support you in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what other devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I understand the principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am too. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in "909" > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the bombardier's > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:41:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:41:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes References: Message-ID: <000f01c09893$8c2dcc40$f1184e0c@netzero> Who remembers when you bought a pack of Luckies out of a vending machine getting three pennies change inside the cellophane? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes > So what kind of cigareetes did you smoke in the UK, if you smoked at all? > Seems Chesterfields and Lucky Strikes were quite popular. How many packs > could you get at a time? Did you buy them or were they supplierd by Uncle > Sam? Did you ever smoke in your a/c after going going off oxygen? And if > you quit smoking, when did you? > > > >From: Bhandsr@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] side arms. > >Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:12:58 EST > > > >A barracksmate of mine, Cliff Muth, had a beautiful pistol he carried, a > >gift > >of his dad whom I recall was a police officer. Whether or not he carried > >this weapon on missions I don't know. Cheers, Happy Holiday......Bob Hand > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:45:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:45:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <80.6f1defe.27beb89d@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c09894$0bcadd80$f1184e0c@netzero> There's only one reason to get out of an otherwise perfectly good airplane. I salute the Airborne Infantry, but they had reason to be crazy. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Miserably poor training for the hazards of an actual jump. After the war I > took a course with Jacques Istel the daddy of modern jumping and got a bang > out of it....hell, it was from 4000 ft. and the air was nice and warm and > below lay an area of soft sand and sawdust. It stopped when my jumping buddy > broke his leg and his wife called my wife about "those damned fools we > married!!!" Ah, well.....Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:56:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:56:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <3.0.5.32.20010215194941.0092c8b0@ilhawaii.net> <3.0.5.32.20010216083111.00924e70@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <002501c09895$a2229ba0$f1184e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0986B.B4D8BEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, your reply was a very large help. I had been told by my father = that the belly turret gunner could bail out from the turret, but later = information seemed to contradict that (ie. you had to be cranked up by = other crew members and exit through the rear door). I know you guys = were "tight", but with seconds to spare; well...? I appreciate you = taking the time to explain. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jim Walling=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Lloyd, Actually, at 128 pounds I fit very well in a ball turret. To me it was = the safest position on the plane. I was sitting on a piece of armor = plate and surrounded by two 50 cal machine guns, a large computing sight = and the turret mechanism. The one time my turret was frozen up and I was = told to fly in the waist I was terrified. I looked out the big window at = the flak bursting all around and the first thing I saw was a B-17 = propeller flying toward the ground. I just read a posting from a pilot who seemed to have the same kind of = experience: >>>> My worst mission was one in which I was bumped from my copilot's seat by a big shot from Group HQ and had to ride in the waist = instead. I was disoriented by lack of forward vision, frustrated with = inactivity and just plain scared. Joe Shuster 456th BG, 15th AF <<<< I would have had no trouble getting out of my turret if it was not = jammed. all I would have had to do was bring the guns to a horizontal = position so the turret door was outside the plane, open the door, = release the safety belt and roll out. Once during phase training in = Texas the door was apparently not latched properly and it blew off in = flight. The only thing between me and the ground was a few thousand feet = of air and the safety belt across the door. It did teach me to check the = door latch when I entered the turret. Jim Walling At 01:18 AM 2/16/01 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Jim, thanks. I can't imagine what it must have been like in a ball = turret. What an act of faith and guts it must have been to get into that = place. I have looked at one close up when the Aluminum Overcast came to = town. Whew! Could you get out of there without assistance? Don't answer = if you would rather not. Very best, Lloyd. ----- Original Message -----=20 _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing = list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com = http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0986B.B4D8BEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim, your reply was a very large = help.  I had=20 been told by my father that the belly turret gunner could bail out from = the=20 turret, but later information seemed to contradict that (ie.  you = had to be=20 cranked up by other crew members and exit through the rear door).  = I know=20 you guys were "tight", but with seconds to spare;  well...?  I = appreciate you taking the time to explain.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jim=20 Walling
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 1:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Parachutes

Lloyd,
Actually, at 128 pounds I fit very well in a = ball=20 turret. To me it was the safest position on the plane. I was sitting = on a=20 piece of armor plate and surrounded by two 50 cal machine guns, a = large=20 computing sight and the turret mechanism. The one time my turret was = frozen up=20 and I was told to fly in the waist I was terrified. I looked out the = big=20 window at the flak bursting all around and the first thing I saw was a = B-17=20 propeller flying toward the ground.
I just read a posting from a = pilot who=20 seemed to have the same kind of experience:
>>>>
My worst mission was one in which I was bumped from my=20 copilot's
seat by a big shot from Group HQ and had to ride in the = waist=20 instead. I
was disoriented by lack of forward vision, frustrated = with=20 inactivity and
just plain scared.

Joe Shuster
456th BG, = 15th=20 AF

<<<<
I would have had no = trouble getting=20 out of my turret if it was not jammed. all I would have had to do was = bring=20 the guns to a horizontal position so the turret door was outside the = plane,=20 open the door, release the safety belt and roll out. Once during phase = training in Texas the door was apparently not latched properly and it = blew off=20 in flight. The only thing between me and the ground was a few thousand = feet of=20 air and the safety belt across the door. It did teach me to check the = door=20 latch when I entered the turret.

Jim Walling



At = 01:18 AM=20 2/16/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>
Jim, thanks. I can't=20 imagine what it must have been like in a ball turret. What an act of = faith=20 and guts it must have been to get into that place. I have looked at = one=20 close up when the Aluminum Overcast came to town. Whew! Could you = get out of=20 there without assistance? Don't answer if you would rather not. Very = best,=20 Lloyd.
----- Original Message -----=20 =



_______________________________= ________________=20 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 = http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0986B.B4D8BEC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 03:59:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:59:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PARACHUTE RIGGERS References: <002b01c09851$05612780$10bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <003301c09896$0ba73e00$f1184e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0986C.2170BBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Paulk, I for one, am always glad to see you coming. Thanks. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] PARACHUTE RIGGERS For what it is worth - In the my list [ not complete] of 444th member = I found 6 MOS 620 =3D Parachute, rig & repair.=3D=3D2 deceased - 2 not = members of 303---2 members -Wesley R. Featherstone - 1704 Canary Dr. - = Edmond, OK --73034-----Tel 405-341-8185-----------------Vincent J. = Spring - 4229 NE 103rd PL - Seattle WA --98125 Tel ---206-525-8404 =20 THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0986C.2170BBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Paulk,  I for one, am always = glad to see=20 you coming.  Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 2:45=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] PARACHUTE = RIGGERS

For what it is worth = - In the my=20 list [ not complete] of 444th member I found 6 MOS 620 =3D Parachute, = rig &=20 repair.=3D=3D2 deceased - 2 not = members of 303---2=20 members -Wesley R. Featherstone - 1704 Canary Dr. - Edmond, OK = --73034-----Tel  = 405-341-8185-----------------Vincent=20 J. Spring - 4229 NE 103rd PL  - Seattle WA --98125  = Tel ---206-525-8404  
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0986C.2170BBA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 04:14:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (tmays) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:14:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <009c01c09898$16f24140$020c0ed8@tmays> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C09865.CB1A6F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with me, but = it was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was = never needed. Tom Mays ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C09865.CB1A6F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with me, = but it=20 was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was never=20 needed.
Tom Mays
------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C09865.CB1A6F40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 04:33:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:33:11 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> LLOYD: HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL OUT OVER BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I BAILED OUT MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN I FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE GROUND FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. SPPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a parachute > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the general > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to support you > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what other > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I understand the > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am too. > Thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in "909" > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > bombardier's > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 04:51:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:51:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes References: <009c01c09898$16f24140$020c0ed8@tmays> Message-ID: <000f01c0989d$55ca90c0$f1184e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C09873.6B1E9040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The next time I get the opportunity to look through a B-17 close up, I = will have a lot of information available to assist with my perspective. = Anyone who has never been aboard a B-17 , can have very little idea how = cramped and close the interior is. You have but to walk from the waist = through the bomb bay catwalk (in a light jacket) forward to the cockpit = to appreciate a H of alot of things. Oh, and while you are up front, = contemplate climbing thru that little "doggie door" that leads to the = nose. Sit down for a minute and try to figure out how you would bail = out if you were only wearing your skivies. It is a very sobering = thought, trust me. My last ramble was through the Aluminum Overcast when it visited the Sun = and Fun Fly-in a couple of years ago Thanks, Tom. L. Grant. --- Original Message -----=20 From: tmays=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with me, = but it was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was = never needed. Tom Mays ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C09873.6B1E9040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The next time I get the opportunity to = look through=20 a B-17 close up, I will have a lot of information available to assist = with my=20 perspective.  Anyone who has never been aboard a B-17 , can have = very=20 little idea how cramped and close the interior is.  You have but to = walk=20 from the waist through the bomb bay catwalk (in a light jacket) forward = to the=20 cockpit to appreciate a H of alot of things.  Oh, and while you are = up=20 front, contemplate climbing thru that little "doggie door" that leads to = the=20 nose.  Sit down for a minute and try to figure out how you would = bail out=20 if you were only wearing your skivies.  It is a very sobering = thought,=20 trust me.
My last ramble was through the Aluminum = Overcast=20 when it visited the Sun and Fun Fly-in a couple of years = ago
Thanks, Tom.  L. = Grant.
--- Original Message -----
From:=20 tmays
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 11:14=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re;=20 Parachutes

 
Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with = me, but=20 it was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was = never=20 needed.
Tom Mays
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C09873.6B1E9040-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:04:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:04:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <001501c0989f$15f25940$f1184e0c@netzero> Spider, it is ever a pleasure to hear from you. Can you give me some leads to P-51 sights (pun intended)? If you have a website I would really like to pay it a visit. A year ago one of my questions was why, when the P-51 was being sold to the Brits, as was (I think) the F4U Corsair, we could not have adapted it sooner as a long range escort. If you have any comments to add, I, and probably some others, would like to hear them. Some guys I met who fought the Sherman Tank wish we had bought our tanks from the Russians. Thanks for contributing, Spider. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > LLOYD: > HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL OUT OVER > BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I BAILED OUT > MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN I > FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE GROUND > FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. > SPPIDER > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a parachute > > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the general > > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to support > you > > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what other > > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I understand > the > > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. > > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am too. > > Thanks. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in > "909" > > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > > bombardier's > > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:05:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:05:55 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes Message-ID: <79.105b9efb.27bf60b3@aol.com> i had a bottle of whiting bleach to me. i would use ration and it would be lined out for what i purchased. then on a mirror or glass surface i would bleach out ink, then use again for my needs and those of my buddies who smoked. ingenuity by southern boy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:09:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:09:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: practice! pratice! practice! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:12:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:12:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: i had back and seat pack and front shute. practiced both.spec flew with front hooked to left chest and 45 on rt. ,in order to use bomb sight. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:17:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:17:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: you should experience hung up bombs in open bomb bay at 29000 ft over germany and flack and fighters and spread eagle across open cavity with only open space beneath you with the three sets of gloves, furry flight jacket and pants double pairs of fur boots and moisture on aluminum edges ,narrowly providing foot rest to straddle opening and force bombs loose withour falling with them spec also portable oxygen bottle hung on your back that kept wrapping onto your arms as you worked. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 05:30:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:30:04 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes References: <009c01c09898$16f24140$020c0ed8@tmays> Message-ID: <007001c098a2$afa7af60$7c8de0d8@h4k3401> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C0985F.A06EB9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was told by Leslie Black, ball turret gunner and sole survivor of = "My Yorkshire Dream" (6-29-44) told=20 me that when the plane was hit by flak he had the guns pointing straight = down (there were no enemy fighters) and he climbed out of the turret to = find his parachute about ready to slide out of the tailless fuselage. He = grabbed it and barely got it snapped on and jumped out. He was a small = man but he apparently stowed his 'chute outside the turret on the floor = like you did, Tom. David Young ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tmays=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 8:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with me, = but it was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was = never needed. Tom Mays ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C0985F.A06EB9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     I was told by = Leslie=20 Black, ball turret gunner and sole survivor of "My Yorkshire Dream" = (6-29-44)=20 told
me that when the plane was hit by = flak he had=20 the guns pointing straight down (there were no enemy fighters) and he = climbed=20 out of the turret to find his parachute about ready to slide out of the = tailless=20 fuselage. He grabbed it and barely got it snapped on and jumped out. He = was a=20 small man but he apparently stowed his 'chute outside the turret on the = floor=20 like you did, Tom.
     David = Young
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tmays
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 8:14=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re;=20 Parachutes

 
Because of my size, I could not take a chute into the ball with = me, but=20 it was always close to my exit on the waist floor. Thankfully it was = never=20 needed.
Tom Mays
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C0985F.A06EB9A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 14:38:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:38:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Planes used by original crews to train Message-ID: <3A8E4693.5087.62FFAC@localhost> I was looking through my microfilm records yesterday, and ran across the listings for the original 303rdBG/360thBS crews that trained in the US. One thing caught my eye, and that was the crew positions listed. Ie rather than the regular crew positions that I'm used to seeing (ie P,CP,N,B,E,R,BT,TG,G) they had P,CP,N, B,E,R,G, but then had "assistant navigator" and "assistant radio operator", and didn't have ball turret gunner or tail gunner. However off to the right, apparently put in after the fact, they had positions like "UT", "RW","RG","BT","LW", and "TG". (I assume that these refer to upper turret, right waist, radio gun, ball turret, left waist, and tail gun????). Anyway, this made me think that the planes used for training were not the B-17-F planes that they flew over to Molesworth (ie and didn't have ball turret and perhaps some of the other guns found on the "F" model planes). I did a little checking and found out that they were assigned about 6 B-17-E planes per squadron when they were at Boise, but that these planes were taken away and sent overseas. When they got to Alamogordo, they only had about 3 B-17-E planes per squadron, ie planes that were apparently resident at that base, but from reading the diary, these planes were broken a good bit of the time, so all 8 air crews apparently had to share 1 or 2 planes for training purposes! And the training was done on "E" planes that were different from that which they would be flying to Molesworth. From the microfilm, I identified 5 of the planes used at Alamogordo, (these planes were listed in Freeman as being issued to the 34thBG, which I think is the group from which the 303rd was formed). These 5 planes, (41-9161, 41-9179, 41-2542, 41-2592, and 41-2551) do not seem to be listed on the database at the 303rdbga web page, neither are the 2 dozen or so planes issued to the 303rd at Boise (I've identified most of these by going through the Freeman book plane by plane). I know that these planes weren't flown in combat by the 303rd, but perhaps they deserve to be added to the database since they are part of the history of the group. In any event, I found it interesting that the group apparently trained on B-17 E planes, and didn't get their "new" "F" models till they got to Kellogg field before going overseas to Molesworth. So I assume that a good deal of on the job "re-training" was necessary prior to flying combat missions. BTW, I have made some additions to my 360thBS history file, ie: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/360-hist.html ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 14:38:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:38:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes In-Reply-To: <000f01c0989d$55ca90c0$f1184e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A8E4692.16293.62FF4C@localhost> > The next time I get the opportunity to look through a B-17 close up, I > will have a lot of information available to assist with my perspective. > Anyone who has never been aboard a B-17 , can have very little idea how > cramped and close the interior is. You have but to walk from the waist > through the bomb bay catwalk (in a light jacket) forward to the cockpit to > appreciate a H of alot of things. ......... >...... We were lucky enough to have both Aluminum Overcast and 9-0-9 come through Portland this year, and I was also able to "see" the CAF plane too. And since I weigh about 250, that is the first thing that occurred to me, ie even if you could squeeze into those small spaces, how could you ever move around if you had to fix something or if you had to bail out. Gave me claustrophobia just thinking of it. One thing that I "think" I noticed, but I'm not sure, was that when I walked through nine-0-nine, was that the bomb-bay cat walk had the support spars in a slight "V", so I didn't have any trouble fitting through, however when I walked through the Collins B-24 (I forget it's name), they were vertical, and I had to jump down to the ground to fit through. When the Aluminum Overcast came through later, I expected it to be like nine-0-nine, but the supports seemed to be nearly vertical in that plane as well, and although I made it through, it was a tight squeeze. I think both overcast and 9-0-9 were "G" planes, but they clearly seemed to be of different construction. Was there a change made in the bomb-bay catwalks in different versions of B-17s, or did I just gain weight between going through the 2 planes and imagine the difference? The other question I have, is:.... when I walked through these two planes, they wouldn't let you up into the bombardier / navigator section for some reason, (perhaps because it was a dead end), and although I took plenty of pictures from the exit door area, I couldn't figure out how the chin turret gun was operated, and by whom. I assume that the bombardier would man that gun when he wasn't busy, but where would he sit to man that gun? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 15:53:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:53:53 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] type of 'chute Message-ID: <001001c098f9$d4520e80$60bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098C7.88FEFCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the ball turret gunners mentioned he kept one side hooked.---I = think it was a Q,A.C. - In supply language Parachute, Quick Attachable = Chest. When I flew on the Continental Express thil is the type I was = issued. [Makes a good pillow.] A person wore the harness. The = instructions I got were--Hook it on to the snaps on your chest. If you = have to bail out over water just before you hit, scooch back in the = harness to form a seat and slap the big round harness release on your = chest. Your were then sitting in a "cradle", drop out and inflate your = mae west.. I used mine as pillow while napping --didn't see the Rhine = River gorge.. Come to think of it--I believe that chute was a British = job.. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098C7.88FEFCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the ball turret gunners = mentioned he kept=20 one side hooked.---I think it was a Q,A.C. -  In supply language = Parachute,=20 Quick Attachable Chest. When I flew on the Continental Express thil is = the type=20 I was issued. [Makes a good pillow.] A person wore the harness. The = instructions=20 I got were--Hook it on to the snaps on your chest. If you have to bail = out over=20 water just before you hit, scooch back in the harness to form a seat and = slap=20 the big round harness release on your chest. Your were then sitting in a = "cradle", drop out and inflate your mae west.. I used mine as pillow = while=20 napping --didn't see the Rhine River gorge.. Come to think of it--I = believe that=20 chute was a British job..
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098C7.88FEFCE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 15:39:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:39:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] who is little guy riding bomb on 360th BS emblem? Message-ID: <3A8E54EC.1210.9B0DF8@localhost> I know this is a dumb question, but I had always assumed that the 360thBS emblem, which is similar to the nose art on "snap, crackle and pop" must just be one of the 3 rice crispy guys, ie either snap crackle or pop. However this morning, I happened to have a box of rice crispies in my hand, and I noticed that none of the 3 characters was the same as the guy on the 360thBS emblem. So the question is, then, who is it riding the bomb? The little guy looks very familiar, like some old cartoon character or something, but I don't know who it might be, and haven't a clue at why it was adopted by the 360th? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 16:05:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:05:00 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 'chute addendum Message-ID: <001901c098fb$6240c8c0$60bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C098C9.16FE8000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sure the waist gunners wore QACs--The story came back about one = fellow that put his chute on and couldn't get out the main door because = a gunner was sitting on the floor not wanting to go. He turned back to = his kguns . Whe he looked again the door was clear. He turned from his = guns and caught the ripcord spilling his chute on the floor - sat down = pulled it all into his arms and chest and bailed out. There was one left = in the ship -- he said the guy was on his back and it opened perfectly.- = The last man was back on base in 4 days!!! the other two were captured. = It wasn't told to me I only heard. It's amazing the memories that pop up with a little prodding. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C098C9.16FE8000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am sure the waist gunners wore = QACs--The story=20 came back about one fellow that put his chute on and couldn't get out = the main=20 door because a gunner was sitting on the floor not wanting to go.  = He=20 turned back to his kguns . Whe he looked again the door was clear. He = turned=20 from his guns and caught the ripcord  spilling his chute on the = floor - sat=20 down pulled it all into his arms and chest and bailed out. There was one = left in=20 the ship -- he said the guy was on his back and it opened perfectly.- = The last=20 man was back on base in 4 days!!! the other two were captured. = It wasn't=20 told to me I only heard.
 
It's amazing the memories that pop up = with a little=20 prodding.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C098C9.16FE8000-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 16:24:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:24:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English people......re Jack Ilfrey In-Reply-To: "Moofy" 's message of Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:23:27 -0000 Message-ID: <29845-3A8EA5C8-4899@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Moofy When I was the editor of the Hell's Angels Newsletter I used to trade newsletters with Jack. I never met Jack but I had friends that knew him and thought the world of him like you do. Was nice chatting with you. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 16:29:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:29:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The English People In-Reply-To: "Dick Smith" 's message of Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:51:41 -0800 Message-ID: <29847-3A8EA702-3619@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Spider Alison Brooks was the Exec. Officer of the 2nd Air Division in Vietnam when I was stationed there. He was a fine guy to work for. He later became the Commander of the Air Rescue Service where he got his star. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 17:55:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:55:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <20010217.115557.-349525.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, they probably wouldn't let you in the nose because it is a dead end . To do so would back up those on tour Regarding the chin turret, the bombardier handled those guns. The controls were stowed near the ceiling. They would drop down over the bombsight so the bombardier remained in his seat. The gun sight is directly over the bombsight at eye level. The next time you go through a B-17 you can see how all of this works. Bill - bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 17:55:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:55:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes Message-ID: To this day, haven't had a first cigarette. Never did anything my kid brother did, and he smoked like crazy. (He died 16 years ago from emphysema, cirrhosis, etc.) In our gift packs I gave my ball turret gunner Dick Albright, the Roi Tan cigars. Don't know if anyone ever smoked aboard, but I doubt it. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:06:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:06:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes Message-ID: <36.122929fc.27c017a6@aol.com> Brian, I don't have to tell you how my mind went slightly berserk with =20 memories up in the nose. Wish I could have spent more time aboard...the=20 flight was only 35 min., and I tried the top turret (where I used to watch=20 contrails from) and of course the Norden bombsight . Slight problem=20 squiggling through the bomb bays from take off spot in the radio=20 room....bumped my noggin four times. We got a nice call from your mother =20 and talked quite a while...she was very interesting....will speak to her=20 again sometime. I owe you a letter hopefully tomorrow. Hope you are all=20 well. Sunny day in Florida, 84=B0!! Take good care...Best Wishes and Cheer= s,=20 Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:11:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:11:50 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <3a.10f232fc.27c018e6@aol.com> On my ride in "909" last week, I had to have help getting out of the bombardier's chair....how bloody embarrassing! Blame my big feet and the shoes, but the crew chief was good anough to twist the seat around and I made it. Never had any kind of problem negotiating in combat with my adrenalin going full blast. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:15:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:15:46 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: Sounds like DFC material...providing you weren't the bombardier, in which case it was "Line of Duty". Heard of some such experience. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:26:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:26:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <001001c0990f$1d15c8e0$d3184e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098E5.32622740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have heard that each gunner was resposible for the care and = maintenance of the guns in his assigned postion. Is this true? I can = see a bit of logic to the concept, but after a particularly harrowing = mission, followed by debriefing, and post mission stress was this a good = idea? What about the guns operated by the navigator and bombadier? If = not true, who cleaned and maintained and installed the weapons prior to = each mission? Thanks for the many responses to my previous questions. = LG. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098E5.32622740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have heard that each gunner was = resposible for=20 the care and maintenance of the guns in his assigned postion.  Is = this=20 true?  I can see a bit of logic to the concept, but after a = particularly=20 harrowing mission, followed by debriefing, and post mission stress was = this a=20 good idea?  What about the guns operated by the navigator and = bombadier? If=20 not true, who cleaned and maintained and installed the weapons prior to = each=20 mission?  Thanks for the many responses to my previous = questions. =20 LG.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C098E5.32622740-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:32:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:32:53 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <17.11ba17fe.27c01dd5@aol.com> The bombardier manned the chin turret guns via a set of pistol-grips stowable to the right of the bombsight. When the sight was out of use, you grabbed these grips and swung the stand down in front of you. Aiming the guns was through a stationery sight just over the bombsight...a bit awkward in the sweat of attack, but usable. On my last mission (Berlin,Feb.3''45) a fingersized piece of flak came through the plexiglas and then through the sight itself, mangling the thing. Would have taken my head off if it wasn't there, miracle of miracles. Left a fist-sized hole in the nose. Recently rode in "909" and sat there wondering. Cheers, Bob Hand (Fink's Crew, 303/360) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 18:58:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:58:56 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <20010217.125857.-329675.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, I think the policy on cleaning guns varied with each squadron. I was a bombardier with the 360th Squadron and I cleaned my guns after each mission. I also had to install the gun barrels prior to takeoff and remove them following the mission. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 19:24:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:24:43 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] chin turret Message-ID: <001601c09917$488a61e0$44bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C098E4.FD268760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Jones--- My 2 cents worth--remember I'm Supply so don't really = know for sure.--I rode nose when on the Continental Express. Although a = LT. ranked me out of the bombadier's seat I still had a pretty good = view. The controls for the turret were off to the right side of the = seat. It looked as if the glass (?) sight would be in front of the = bombadiers eyes when pulled into position. I have a picture taken = alongside the officer in the seat but it doesn't show all the controls. = It shows the clean off window and the Right corner of the platform and a = "tube" with wires. [Arc de Triumph in the picture]. As I remember {I'm = not too bright ya know] The grips were on a "V" with the grips at the = wide end and pointing toward the flkoor.. Man !! that was 56 snows past. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C098E4.FD268760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Bill Jones--- My 2 cents = worth--remember I'm=20 Supply so don't really know for sure.--I rode nose when on the = Continental=20 Express.  Although a LT. ranked me out of the bombadier's seat I = still had=20 a pretty good view. The controls for the turret were off to the right = side of=20 the seat. It looked as if the  glass (?) sight would be in front of = the=20 bombadiers eyes when pulled into position. I have a picture taken = alongside the=20 officer in the seat but it doesn't show all the controls. It shows the = clean off=20 window and the Right corner of the platform and a "tube" with = wires. [Arc=20 de Triumph in the picture]. As I remember {I'm not too bright ya know] = The grips=20 were on a "V" with the grips at the wide end and pointing toward = the=20 flkoor.. Man !! that was 56 snows past.
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C098E4.FD268760-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 19:54:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:54:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] chin turret In-Reply-To: <001601c09917$488a61e0$44bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3A8E908D.15352.184033F@localhost> > ......... The controls for the turret were off to the right side of the > seat. It looked as if the glass (?) sight would be in front of the > bombadiers eyes when pulled into position. ....... >....................... As I remember {I'm > not too bright ya know] The grips were on a "V" with the grips at the > wide end and pointing toward the flkoor........ Thanks (and also to the other responders). I guess for some reason, I was assuming that the gunner would have to be down closer to the turret itself, or "IN" it, like the ball turret, rather than sitting comfortably above it. I was imagining the gunner lying on his stomach underneith the bombardier, or sitting on the floor with his feet through a trap door down to the turret or something...... sounds dumb now that I think of it. I have a picture I took in nine-0-nine last year, and I think I see the controls off to the upper right.... I didn't know what that was. Picture is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bomb909.jpg There is something else in the picture, that is right in the middle above the bombardier (although it might be an optical illusion, and be further back toward the navigator). I don't know what this thing is, but a similar picture taken in the Aluminum overcast doesn't show this thing. Or perhaps that is the turret control, and it is swung out of the way on the other picture? Anyway, thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 20:09:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:09:03 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] chin turret Message-ID: <20010217.140904.-343083.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Bill, the object in the center is the gun sight. It is on a permanent mount. This is a great picture. Do you mind if I keep a copy in my computer? Bill - bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 20:45:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:45:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> <001501c0989f$15f25940$f1184e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <003001c09922$8c65e640$38f833cf@richards> LLOYD: THE BEST LEAD FOR AII FIGHTER INFORMATION IS THE SITE LITTLE FRIENDS http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/ YOU WILL FIND THE SCOUTING FORCES WHERE I FLEW MY SECOND TOUR ALSO PICTURES OF MY P51 AND LOTS OF STORIES, . ENJOY. SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Spider, it is ever a pleasure to hear from you. Can you give me some leads > to P-51 sights (pun intended)? If you have a website I would really like to > pay it a visit. > A year ago one of my questions was why, when the P-51 was being sold to the > Brits, as was (I think) the F4U Corsair, we could not have adapted it sooner > as a long range escort. If you have any comments to add, I, and probably > some others, would like to hear them. > Some guys I met who fought the Sherman Tank wish we had bought our tanks > from the Russians. Thanks for contributing, Spider. Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Smith" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > LLOYD: > > HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL OUT > OVER > > BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I BAILED OUT > > MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN I > > FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE > GROUND > > FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. > > SPPIDER > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > > > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a parachute > > > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the general > > > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to support > > you > > > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what other > > > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I understand > > the > > > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. > > > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am too. > > > Thanks. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in > > "909" > > > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > > > bombardier's > > > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 23:04:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:04:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> <001501c0989f$15f25940$f1184e0c@netzero> <003001c09922$8c65e640$38f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002001c09935$f5a01780$07914d0c@netzero> Spider, I spent some time this afternoon looking at a few sites dealing with the P-51 flight characteristics. Would like to hear some comments from you in this regard ie. maneuverability, BD capabilities, and general opiinions about flying the plane. I am sure the others wouldn't mind learning some insider facts about "Little Friends" either. Thanks for the link , I will definately check it out. LG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > LLOYD: > THE BEST LEAD FOR AII FIGHTER INFORMATION IS THE SITE LITTLE FRIENDS > http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/ YOU WILL FIND THE SCOUTING FORCES WHERE I > FLEW MY SECOND TOUR ALSO PICTURES OF MY P51 AND LOTS OF STORIES, > . ENJOY. > SPIDER > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:04 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > Spider, it is ever a pleasure to hear from you. Can you give me some > leads > > to P-51 sights (pun intended)? If you have a website I would really like > to > > pay it a visit. > > A year ago one of my questions was why, when the P-51 was being sold to > the > > Brits, as was (I think) the F4U Corsair, we could not have adapted it > sooner > > as a long range escort. If you have any comments to add, I, and probably > > some others, would like to hear them. > > Some guys I met who fought the Sherman Tank wish we had bought our tanks > > from the Russians. Thanks for contributing, Spider. Lloyd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dick Smith" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > LLOYD: > > > HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL OUT > > OVER > > > BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I BAILED > OUT > > > MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN I > > > FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE > > GROUND > > > FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. > > > SPPIDER > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > > > > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a parachute > > > > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the > general > > > > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to > support > > > you > > > > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what other > > > > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I > understand > > > the > > > > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. > > > > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > > > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode in > > > "909" > > > > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > > > > bombardier's > > > > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 23:16:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's References: <20010217.125857.-329675.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <002c01c09937$b0352da0$07914d0c@netzero> Thanks, Bill, as I said, in the broad view it makes good sense. I wouldn't have wanted to put my arse on the line with a gun I wasn't sure of. On top of your other duties, obviously officers were not "too fine" to perform this duty also. How much training did you get in aerial gunnery , and maintenence? This is very interesting for me , and one of the things often overlooked from mention, but important to understand and pass on accurately. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's > Lloyd, I think the policy on cleaning guns varied with each squadron. I > was a bombardier with the 360th Squadron and I cleaned my guns after > each mission. I also had to install the gun barrels prior to takeoff and > remove them following the mission. > Bill Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 17 23:25:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:25:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes References: <17.11ba17fe.27c01dd5@aol.com> Message-ID: <003201c09938$e0371b20$07914d0c@netzero> Bob, which would you have preferred if you'd had the choice; a manual single as in the "F" model, or the dual , but remotely operated chin turret of the "G"? I have heard some comments about the added drag the chin turrets created. There is something you pilots might address too. As ever, thanks. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes > The bombardier manned the chin turret guns via a set of pistol-grips stowable > to the right of the bombsight. When the sight was out of use, you grabbed > these grips and swung the stand down in front of you. Aiming the guns was > through a stationery sight just over the bombsight...a bit awkward in the > sweat of attack, but usable. On my last mission (Berlin,Feb.3''45) a > fingersized piece of flak came through the plexiglas and then through the > sight itself, mangling the thing. Would have taken my head off if it wasn't > there, miracle of miracles. Left a fist-sized hole in the nose. Recently > rode in "909" and sat there wondering. Cheers, Bob Hand (Fink's Crew, > 303/360) > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 00:26:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:26:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <20010217.182619.-333565.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, you will find this hard to believe but the story is true. Somehow, they failed to send me to gunnery school. I think that was a six or seven week training period . I had fired the 50's on range and had used the waist gun mounted with a camera in the air. Navy cadets from Pensacola provided the targets in buzzing our aircraft. Now for the interesting part. Our crew arrived at the airplane for our first mission. The Gunnery Sergeant had placed the barrels in a row on the ground and was about to leave. I called to him and ask if he didn't put the barrels in the guns? His response was no, that is your job Lieutenant. I said then we have a problem as I don't know how. He said didn't you go to gunnery school? My answer was no was I supposed to? He helped me install the barrels and they fired okay over the channel. The same Sergeant was on duty the next morning and asked if I thought I could handle the job? I did but when it came time to test fire they wouldn't shoot. I discovered that I failed to install one of the bolt studs. On the third mission all went well. You might say that I learned on the job ha I never did have to use them and that was a good thing because it is hard to tell what I might have hit. Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 01:22:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:22:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <99.10cee6e0.27c07de7@aol.com> true practice procedure. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 01:34:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:34:07 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <39.10cade00.27c0808f@aol.com> there was a machine gun for thee navigator to use also. protruded off left front nose. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 01:50:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:50:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: L. G. As far as I am concerned the chin turret was a real life saver. It was a much more efficient gun than the singles once the Bombardiers got used to them. The added drag we never noticed. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 02:28:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:28:14 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cigarettes Message-ID: <40.7964e56.27c08d3e@aol.com> --part1_40.7964e56.27c08d3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was there anything more satisfying than that cigarette you lit up at 12000 ft. or so after 6 or 8 hours on oxygen? I can still taste it even tho I quit years ago. Mike Zarelli --part1_40.7964e56.27c08d3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Was there anything more satisfying than that cigarette you lit up at
12000 ft. or so after 6 or 8 hours on oxygen? I can still taste it even tho I
quit years ago.
                                                                             
       Mike Zarelli --part1_40.7964e56.27c08d3e_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 04:42:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:42:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's References: <20010217.182619.-333565.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000d01c09965$3b78e820$4b914d0c@netzero> How many people would ever know this , Bill, if you had never said a thing about it? In case anyone wonders why I ask these questions, Bills' answer here might give you an idea. What you may consider minutia, could make the difference between truth and fiction when the real story gets passed along. I commend you all for the honest and factual information you have shared with those of us who really care. rom: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's > Lloyd, you will find this hard to believe but the story is true. Somehow, > they failed to send me to gunnery school. I think that was a six or seven > week training period . I had fired the 50's on range and had used the > waist gun mounted with a camera in the air. Navy cadets from Pensacola > provided the targets in buzzing our aircraft. Now for the interesting > part. Our crew arrived at the airplane for our first mission. The Gunnery > Sergeant had placed the barrels in a row on the ground and was about to > leave. I called to him and ask if he didn't put the barrels in the guns? > His response was no, that is your job Lieutenant. I said then we have a > problem as I don't know how. He said didn't you go to gunnery school? My > answer was no was I supposed to? He helped me install the barrels and > they fired okay over the channel. The same Sergeant was on duty the next > morning and asked if I thought I could handle the job? I did but when it > came time to test fire they wouldn't shoot. I discovered that I failed to > install one of the bolt studs. On the third mission all went well. > You might say that I learned on the job ha I never did have to use them > and that was a good thing because it is hard to tell what I might have > hit. > Bill runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 17:48:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:48:42 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: <001601c099d3$0d31f1a0$d6b34d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C099A9.1FB5BA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was studying the formation configurations on the 303rd site to get a = clearer mental picture of formation set-up. There are three , three = plane flights (lead, high, and low) and "the dreaded 'Tailend Charlie' = position. Why this poosition was termed "dreaded" is obviously not referring to = attacking EA pilots state of mind. Why did this position even exist in = the formation? It doesnt seem to have any particular strategic, or = defensive value in the formation. I am probably missing something. = Please comment. Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C099A9.1FB5BA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was studying the formation = configurations on the=20 303rd site to get a clearer mental picture of formation set-up.  = There are=20 three , three plane flights (lead, high, and low) and "the dreaded = 'Tailend=20 Charlie' position.
Why this poosition was termed "dreaded" = is=20 obviously not referring to attacking EA pilots state of mind.  Why = did this=20 position even exist in the formation?  It doesnt seem to have any=20 particular strategic, or defensive value in the formation. I am probably = missing=20 something. Please comment.  Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C099A9.1FB5BA20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 19:25:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:25:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: <47.799e39e.27c17ba7@aol.com> Lloyd. Id, WE flew 4 three elements in our later formations. There was a lead, High on their right and a low on their left. Then we had a low right behind and under the low. I never heard this regarded as "dreaded"'If the first plane got one inch behind then every plane behind him was behind so if you were back 3 or 4 planes from the lead and every plane was an inch or two out of formation. it made a bad formation. Hence we didn't want anyone who flew bad formation up front. The further back you were the bigger corrections you had to make so it was more work to fly back there. A lot of our new crews were assigned to the right wing of the high..This was an easy place in the formation to fly and if you goofed it didn't bother anyone behind you. I suppose the Germans always aimed at the lead plane and if they didn't lead it enough they would hit the tail end charlie,,but other than being a bit more physical work it was no different from anyplace else. If you were there it was probably because you hadn't learned to fly good formation yet. My opinion only, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 21:28:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:28:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie References: <47.799e39e.27c17ba7@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c099f1$b1417900$4f8f4d0c@netzero> Thanks for your reply ( and patience) Jack. What I am referring to is the section marked "Bomber Formations" at the 303rd BGA website listed in the "History of the 303rd" button. The tail end Charlie depicted in the bottom diagram is #7 of the 2nd (high eschelon) . The script reads: "B-17 no. 7 was the dreaded "Tail-end-Charlie" With what you have said regarding keeping up with the formation and even the slight nuances involved in maintaining a tight defensive formation ( ie airspeed etc...) no. 7 looks like "fighter bait". Something that might help with understanding the vulnerability of the formation as a whole would be an understanding of the attack strategy employed by the Luftwaffe fighters. I understand that their strategy evolved to favor a front on attack with attacking fighters in tandum. Most of the film depictions people see are from the rear showing strikes on the wing and engine areas. This mindset is no doubt misleading and should be cleared up. You guys were there, those of us seeing these film clips on TV have only that information to go on. And, that aint how it should be, if you get my drift. I realize too that sixty years have washed under the bridge and it is hard enough to remember things that you spent all that time hoping to forget. Ignore any question I ask, Jack, that gets too close to what might better be forgotten. My respects and thanks. LG ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > Lloyd. Id, > WE flew 4 three elements in our later formations. There was a lead, > High on their right and a low on their left. Then we had a low right behind > and under the low. I never heard this regarded as "dreaded"'If the first > plane got one inch behind then every plane behind him was behind so if you > were back 3 or 4 planes from the lead and every plane was an inch or two out > of formation. it made a bad formation. Hence we didn't want anyone who flew > bad formation up front. The further back you were the bigger corrections you > had to make so it was more work to fly back there. A lot of our new crews > were assigned to the right wing of the high..This was an easy place in the > formation to fly and if you goofed it didn't bother anyone behind you. I > suppose the Germans always aimed at the lead plane and if they didn't lead it > enough they would hit the tail end charlie,,but other than being a bit more > physical work it was no different from anyplace else. If you were there it > was probably because you hadn't learned to fly good formation yet. > My opinion only, > Jack Rencher > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:29:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:29:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie References: <47.799e39e.27c17ba7@aol.com> <000501c099f1$b1417900$4f8f4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <000501c09a02$b441d800$3b3f22d1@billowen> Lloyd, from what I've read and looking at the diagrams that you mention, it looks like that #7 is sitting up there with not much firepower protection from the other planes in the group. Early in the war, before they were fortunate enough to have long range fighter protection, these guys had a lot of enemy fighter opposition. As I understand it at that time the fighters would mostly attack from the rear and that "tail end Charlie" was a pretty easy looking target. I know from reading a diary kept by one of my brother's crew that they certainly didn't like flying that position. Just look at that Right Side view in the upper diagram (August 1943) and just imagine what it was like to have fighters diving down at you from the rear. Really exposed and not much the others could do to help you. I wasn't there and am certainly no expert on the subject but I can see why I wouldn't want to fly that position.... Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > Thanks for your reply ( and patience) Jack. What I am referring to is the > section marked "Bomber Formations" at the 303rd BGA website listed in the > "History of the 303rd" button. The tail end Charlie depicted in the bottom > diagram is #7 of the 2nd (high eschelon) . The script reads: "B-17 no. 7 > was the dreaded "Tail-end-Charlie" > With what you have said regarding keeping up with the formation and even > the slight nuances involved in maintaining a tight defensive formation ( ie > airspeed etc...) > no. 7 looks like "fighter bait". Something that might help with > understanding the vulnerability of the formation as a whole would be an > understanding of the attack strategy employed by the Luftwaffe fighters. I > understand that their strategy evolved to favor a front on attack with > attacking fighters in tandum. Most of the film depictions people see are > from the rear showing strikes on the wing and engine areas. This mindset > is no doubt misleading and > should be cleared up. You guys were there, those of us seeing these film > clips on TV have only that information to go on. And, that aint how it > should be, if you get my drift. > I realize too that sixty years have washed under the bridge and it is hard > enough to remember things that you spent all that time hoping to forget. > Ignore any question I ask, Jack, that gets too close to what might better be > forgotten. > My respects and thanks. LG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > > > > Lloyd. Id, > > WE flew 4 three elements in our later formations. There was a lead, > > High on their right and a low on their left. Then we had a low right > behind > > and under the low. I never heard this regarded as "dreaded"'If the first > > plane got one inch behind then every plane behind him was behind so if you > > were back 3 or 4 planes from the lead and every plane was an inch or two > out > > of formation. it made a bad formation. Hence we didn't want anyone who > flew > > bad formation up front. The further back you were the bigger corrections > you > > had to make so it was more work to fly back there. A lot of our new crews > > were assigned to the right wing of the high..This was an easy place in the > > formation to fly and if you goofed it didn't bother anyone behind you. I > > suppose the Germans always aimed at the lead plane and if they didn't lead > it > > enough they would hit the tail end charlie,,but other than being a bit > more > > physical work it was no different from anyplace else. If you were there > it > > was probably because you hadn't learned to fly good formation yet. > > My opinion only, > > Jack Rencher > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:29:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:29:54 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie References: <47.799e39e.27c17ba7@aol.com> <000501c099f1$b1417900$4f8f4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <000501c09a02$b441d800$3b3f22d1@billowen> Lloyd, from what I've read and looking at the diagrams that you mention, it looks like that #7 is sitting up there with not much firepower protection from the other planes in the group. Early in the war, before they were fortunate enough to have long range fighter protection, these guys had a lot of enemy fighter opposition. As I understand it at that time the fighters would mostly attack from the rear and that "tail end Charlie" was a pretty easy looking target. I know from reading a diary kept by one of my brother's crew that they certainly didn't like flying that position. Just look at that Right Side view in the upper diagram (August 1943) and just imagine what it was like to have fighters diving down at you from the rear. Really exposed and not much the others could do to help you. I wasn't there and am certainly no expert on the subject but I can see why I wouldn't want to fly that position.... Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > Thanks for your reply ( and patience) Jack. What I am referring to is the > section marked "Bomber Formations" at the 303rd BGA website listed in the > "History of the 303rd" button. The tail end Charlie depicted in the bottom > diagram is #7 of the 2nd (high eschelon) . The script reads: "B-17 no. 7 > was the dreaded "Tail-end-Charlie" > With what you have said regarding keeping up with the formation and even > the slight nuances involved in maintaining a tight defensive formation ( ie > airspeed etc...) > no. 7 looks like "fighter bait". Something that might help with > understanding the vulnerability of the formation as a whole would be an > understanding of the attack strategy employed by the Luftwaffe fighters. I > understand that their strategy evolved to favor a front on attack with > attacking fighters in tandum. Most of the film depictions people see are > from the rear showing strikes on the wing and engine areas. This mindset > is no doubt misleading and > should be cleared up. You guys were there, those of us seeing these film > clips on TV have only that information to go on. And, that aint how it > should be, if you get my drift. > I realize too that sixty years have washed under the bridge and it is hard > enough to remember things that you spent all that time hoping to forget. > Ignore any question I ask, Jack, that gets too close to what might better be > forgotten. > My respects and thanks. LG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > > > > Lloyd. Id, > > WE flew 4 three elements in our later formations. There was a lead, > > High on their right and a low on their left. Then we had a low right > behind > > and under the low. I never heard this regarded as "dreaded"'If the first > > plane got one inch behind then every plane behind him was behind so if you > > were back 3 or 4 planes from the lead and every plane was an inch or two > out > > of formation. it made a bad formation. Hence we didn't want anyone who > flew > > bad formation up front. The further back you were the bigger corrections > you > > had to make so it was more work to fly back there. A lot of our new crews > > were assigned to the right wing of the high..This was an easy place in the > > formation to fly and if you goofed it didn't bother anyone behind you. I > > suppose the Germans always aimed at the lead plane and if they didn't lead > it > > enough they would hit the tail end charlie,,but other than being a bit > more > > physical work it was no different from anyplace else. If you were there > it > > was probably because you hadn't learned to fly good formation yet. > > My opinion only, > > Jack Rencher > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:33:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:33:33 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; Parachutes Message-ID: <40.79a6465.27c1b5cd@aol.com> Far less physical stress in using the dual chin turret....greater firepower, also, considering a lot of attacks from enemy aircraft were from 12 o'clock high. The pistol grip trigger was simple to use and in a bouncing posture far easier to direct fire than the single mount gun. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:39:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:39:52 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: <20010218.173953.-289073.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, I think the tailend charlie spot was often filled by an aircraft from another squadron or possibly another bomb group who couldn't find their own formation in the darkness of the early morning hour. Our instructions were to do that if we couldn't hook up by the time to bomber stream headed out over the channel. It certainly was not a choice spot to be in. Bill runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:41:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:41:38 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <9f.115d7665.27c1b7b2@aol.com> I had the "normal" gunnery school training at Kingman AAF base. One night after nighttime gunnery practice, a bus carrying 26 cadets was broadsided at a railroad crossing by a highballing freight and all were killed or died soon after. Then 15 more went down with a B-17 and one died in a gunnery accident, yet another drowned in the pool there. And we hadn't even been to bombardier school yet, much less actual combat. Strange that this base should be the graveyard for all those wonderful war-weary B-17s. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 18 23:47:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:47:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: We did "tail-end Charlie" a couple of times and were carrying leaflets. These cartons contained an aneroid fuse that opened them at around 10 thousand feet altitude, scattering the contents over a wide area. Used to call them "komiks for der kiddies". No need to tuck it in tight in the formation, thusly. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 02:22:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:22:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: Bill & Lloyd, I don't know where # 7 position is but I assume it is just under and behind the lead plane in the high element. This put 4 planes in the High element. In the 303rd when I was there it was no way a tail end Charlie. It was actually further forward than any of the low low element. Our formations were very short from front to back. From the front the back would be maybe 4 airplane lengths. We were wide but not long. This was on the bomb run or when German fighters were close. We would be spread out some just going in or coming out when no enemy fighter were in the area. This hard to show on a piece of paper because it is only 2 dimensions but in the air there are 3. We were stacked up and down. Not wing tip to wing tip. Our wings overlapped with one a few feet higher or lower than his lead but very little behind it. If you were flying behind someone your nose should not be behind his tail much if any but just behind the rear of his bomb bay and just far enough below that your vertical tail was not in his wash. Maybe 8 to 10 feet. Now I am talking about the 303rd. Not the other bomb groups. Our formations were why often times the enemy flew past us and attacked some other group. Personally I would just as soon fly in the box in the high element as any other position. You don't see many movies of 12 o'clock attacks because the rate of closure was so fast there was little time to take a picture. But it was their favorite way before we got the chin turrets. My opinions only, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 02:48:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:48:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> <001501c0989f$15f25940$f1184e0c@netzero> <003001c09922$8c65e640$38f833cf@richards> <002001c09935$f5a01780$07914d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <004f01c09a1e$824db140$2bf833cf@richards> Lloyd: I have a web site for my Radio Control airplane club. www.ivic.net/~spider/ Spiders Story is on the site under Maps And Pictures. As you will read The P51 was a great airplane which I learned to fly with minimum training, Fin For a 20 year old kid. Enjoy Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Spider, I spent some time this afternoon looking at a few sites dealing with > the P-51 flight characteristics. Would like to hear some comments from you > in this regard ie. maneuverability, BD capabilities, and general opiinions > about flying the plane. I am sure the others wouldn't mind learning some > insider facts about "Little Friends" either. Thanks for the link , I will > definately check it out. LG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Smith" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > LLOYD: > > THE BEST LEAD FOR AII FIGHTER INFORMATION IS THE SITE LITTLE FRIENDS > > http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/ YOU WILL FIND THE SCOUTING FORCES WHERE I > > FLEW MY SECOND TOUR ALSO PICTURES OF MY P51 AND LOTS OF STORIES, > > . ENJOY. > > SPIDER > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > Spider, it is ever a pleasure to hear from you. Can you give me some > > leads > > > to P-51 sights (pun intended)? If you have a website I would really > like > > to > > > pay it a visit. > > > A year ago one of my questions was why, when the P-51 was being sold to > > the > > > Brits, as was (I think) the F4U Corsair, we could not have adapted it > > sooner > > > as a long range escort. If you have any comments to add, I, and > probably > > > some others, would like to hear them. > > > Some guys I met who fought the Sherman Tank wish we had bought our tanks > > > from the Russians. Thanks for contributing, Spider. Lloyd. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dick Smith" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:33 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > LLOYD: > > > > HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL OUT > > > OVER > > > > BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I BAILED > > OUT > > > > MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN I > > > > FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE > > > GROUND > > > > FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. > > > > SPPIDER > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > > > > > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a > parachute > > > > > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the > > general > > > > > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to > > support > > > > you > > > > > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what > other > > > > > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I > > understand > > > > the > > > > > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some extent. > > > > > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am > too. > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > > > > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently rode > in > > > > "909" > > > > > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > > > > > bombardier's > > > > > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 02:54:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:54:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: <20010218.205417.-191313.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jack, I don't know why but the low aircraft in the box formation had a stigma associated with it. On February 26th,1945 we were assigned to the "coffin corner" spot on a mission to Berlin. We were under the tail of the lead ship. We were so close that I could count the rivets on the belly of the lead ship. To make it worse, we carried propaganda. I can't remember the pilot's name but he was one of the best formation pilots that I flew with. He flew his last mission the next day and came back with a main gear flat tire, a ball turret that could not be returned to the landing position after the gunner exited and over 200 holes in the aircraft. His landing was on the grass and all got out. The following day the took pictures of him standing on a step ladder with his body through one of the wing holes. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 03:26:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:26:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <2d.7a0b047.27c1ec79@aol.com> bob i went thru kingman also ,before sight school at lowery in denver. while at kingman we were told an order had come from washington to have each of us to fire another 1000 machine gun rounds before we left. while my flight was complying, we were told to load gun and simply hold trigger as each load was firec ,then reload and repeat. during such , a gun stud mount for gun shattered, the gun kept firing and the projectiles mowed down 6 and injured 8 of our flight. had a hearing of event. . spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 03:28:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:28:26 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: yiou may recall news story and congressional hearing and court indictment and conviction of munitions merchants that lived in w.va. name escapes me just now. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 03:30:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:30:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <3b.109d8031.27c1ed41@aol.com> also ,how about those sand storms. i slept in my mattress cover to keep sand out of my mouth during nights. also, how about the fans blowing over wetted greenery as air conditioning in base theatre. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 03:34:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:34:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie References: Message-ID: <002501c09a24$ec50eac0$a51b4e0c@netzero> Jack, I believe what you tell me. I heard this term "tail-end-Charlie" used numerous times and I even think there is a reference to it in "Three Engines a Wing and a Prayer". So , I thought it was a common place term. You are right about it being difficult to envision the make up of the box formation from drawings, but I can understand the idea behind the defensive strategy. It is no wonder that some truly great pilots evolved out of the war. Keeping a tight formation with all the prop wash, contrails , and other distractions must have required nerves of titanium, not steel. Thank everyone for helping me get a handle on this one. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie > Bill & Lloyd, > I don't know where # 7 position is but I assume it is just under and > behind the lead plane in the high element. This put 4 planes in the High > element. In the 303rd when I was there it was no way a tail end Charlie. It > was actually further forward than any of the low low element. Our formations > were very short from front to back. From the front the back would be maybe 4 > airplane lengths. We were wide but not long. This was on the bomb run or > when German fighters were close. We would be spread out some just going in or > coming out when no enemy fighter were in the area. This hard to show on a > piece of paper because it is only 2 dimensions but in the air there are 3. We > were stacked up and down. Not wing tip to wing tip. Our wings overlapped with > one a few feet higher or lower than his lead but very little behind it. If > you were flying behind someone your nose should not be behind his tail much > if any but just behind the rear of his bomb bay and just far enough below > that your vertical tail was not in his wash. Maybe 8 to 10 feet. Now I am > talking about the 303rd. Not the other bomb groups. Our formations were why > often times the enemy flew past us and attacked some other group. Personally > I would just as soon fly in the box in the high element as any other > position. You don't see many movies of 12 o'clock attacks because the rate > of closure was so fast there was little time to take a picture. But it was > their favorite way before we got the chin turrets. > > My opinions only, > Jack Rencher > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 03:54:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:54:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes References: <000901c09893$2f552ea0$f1184e0c@netzero> <001b01c0989a$bd994d20$51f833cf@richards> <001501c0989f$15f25940$f1184e0c@netzero> <003001c09922$8c65e640$38f833cf@richards> <002001c09935$f5a01780$07914d0c@netzero> <004f01c09a1e$824db140$2bf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002d01c09a27$a5690860$a51b4e0c@netzero> Spider, I read your story. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > Lloyd: > I have a web site for my Radio Control airplane club. www.ivic.net/~spider/ > Spiders Story is on the site under Maps And Pictures. As you will read The > P51 was a great airplane which I learned to fly with minimum training, Fin > For a 20 year old kid. > Enjoy > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > Spider, I spent some time this afternoon looking at a few sites dealing > with > > the P-51 flight characteristics. Would like to hear some comments from > you > > in this regard ie. maneuverability, BD capabilities, and general opiinions > > about flying the plane. I am sure the others wouldn't mind learning some > > insider facts about "Little Friends" either. Thanks for the link , I will > > definately check it out. LG > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dick Smith" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > LLOYD: > > > THE BEST LEAD FOR AII FIGHTER INFORMATION IS THE SITE LITTLE FRIENDS > > > http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/ YOU WILL FIND THE SCOUTING FORCES WHERE I > > > FLEW MY SECOND TOUR ALSO PICTURES OF MY P51 AND LOTS OF STORIES, > > > . ENJOY. > > > SPIDER > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:04 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > Spider, it is ever a pleasure to hear from you. Can you give me some > > > leads > > > > to P-51 sights (pun intended)? If you have a website I would really > > like > > > to > > > > pay it a visit. > > > > A year ago one of my questions was why, when the P-51 was being sold > to > > > the > > > > Brits, as was (I think) the F4U Corsair, we could not have adapted it > > > sooner > > > > as a long range escort. If you have any comments to add, I, and > > probably > > > > some others, would like to hear them. > > > > Some guys I met who fought the Sherman Tank wish we had bought our > tanks > > > > from the Russians. Thanks for contributing, Spider. Lloyd. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dick Smith" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:33 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > LLOYD: > > > > > HI THIS IS SPIDER ! ON MY SECOND TOUR IN P51S I WAS FORCED TO BAIL > OUT > > > > OVER > > > > > BELGIUM . THE AIRPLANE WAS BURNING AND I STRUCK THE TAIL WHEN I > BAILED > > > OUT > > > > > MY RIGHT ARM WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TROUBLE PULLING THE RIPCORD. WHEN > I > > > > > FINALLY GOT IT DONE THE CHUTE OPENED AND I SWUNG UP ONCE AND HIT THE > > > > GROUND > > > > > FACE DOWN. NEVER SAW THE GROUND COMING. LUCKY GUY. > > > > > SPPIDER > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:39 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, I am glad that this question elicited such a good response. > > > > > > Essentially, this is what I was hoping to learn: You had a > > parachute > > > > > > harness, the parachute was attached by some sort of clips in the > > > general > > > > > > area of the lower back , or buttocks to the harness. In order to > > > support > > > > > you > > > > > > in an upright attitude, rather than a "bent over" position, what > > other > > > > > > devices were employed? I have never parachuted myself, but I > > > understand > > > > > the > > > > > > principles of the deployment and shroud manipulation to some > extent. > > > > > > Please, don't anyone laugh, somebody else is as ignorant as I am > > too. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:34 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Parachutes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Better safe than sorry....no time to scramble for a chute in an > > > > > > > emergency....always wore mine buckled on one side. Recently > rode > > in > > > > > "909" > > > > > > > and wondered how I ever jockeyed through the bomb bay up to the > > > > > > bombardier's > > > > > > > chair and I'm only 15 lbs heavier. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 05:30:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:30:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Parachutes Message-ID: <20010219053015.4146.qmail@web9307.mail.yahoo.com> Hello All, All this talk about parachutes reminded me of a story my Dad related to me after finding a small triangle of silk in his 303rd BG items. It was on one of his first missions during the Summer 0f 1944, as they were bouncing through some pretty accurate flak he heard his waist gunners talking about un-tangling themselves. He decided to check out what all the commotion was about so he exited his Ball turret to check it out, to his shock he discovered his parachute that was stowed in the waist was his by a chunk of flak and popped open filling the waist section, luckily he didn't have to bail out that day! He related this to some British fighter pilots he met a few weeks later and they smuggled him a thin seat pack that fit perfectly in the Ball Turret. They said it was much larger than the bomber chutes due to the low altitudes they flew so if he had to use it, wait a little longer before you pull the cord! He said it was more of a safety blanket knowing you had a chute under you. That little piece of silk was signed by his whole crew after that mission, neat keepsake from Molesworth. On a sad note, my Dad Alfred Hollritt BTG 303rd/427th (Who turns 78 March 9) just found out a few days ago he has a tumor / cyst on his bladder and must undergo surgery to remove it on March 21st, my brother Barry and I hope it's not serious. Some of you may remember Dad my brother and I at the Hanger Dance, Al was the one wearing his original 8th AF uniform! Check the 303rd web site for our photos too. This mission coming up may be a tuff one for him... we hope its just a Milk Run! Todd I will keep you posted, I am off to New Orleans this week for the D-Day Museum, Oh... and it's Mardi Gra! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 09:32:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:32:01 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie Message-ID: <45.28945e5.27c24211@aol.com> Lloyd, Don't get me wrong. I know what "Tail End Charlie" is, but it is a term that fits an echelon formation like the fighters used with 3 or 4 planes than our formations. If we had a tail end charlie there would be two of them. The wing men in the low low element, not the 4th man in the high element. The 4th man in the high element if there was one would be the same distance behind , but higher, from the Squadron lead as the lead man in the low 6 planes if this makes sense. If you were behind our formation it would slope down from your right too your left. If you were above it looking straight down it should be about 3 times as wide, left to right, as it was long, front to back. Also, We didn't fly in prop wash (Much.) Contrails some times yes Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 14:19:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Georgia McSorley) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:19:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] messages Message-ID: Please delete our address from the talk circle. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 15:42:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:42:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Temporary vacation Message-ID: <8251-3A913EF8-3029@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Please delete my address from the mailing list as of February 20th. I'll be back when I get out of the hospital. Thanks. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 15:46:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:46:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail end Charlie In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:32:01 EST Message-ID: <8250-3A913FEF-3719@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> We flew "Tail End Charlie" in the high sqdn. of the lead group at Oschersleben. I saw a helluva lot of German fighters. Missions flown in 1943 were a lot different than the ones flown in 1945. Especially the fighter opposition. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 15:47:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:47:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <13.11a4bc83.27c299f9@aol.com> Hooboy, Kingman had to be the stateside hard luck depot. The thing that kept me from that gunnery practice that night was an eye infection I woke up with that morning.... conjunctivitis....a blessing in disguise. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 15:52:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:52:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Parachutes Message-ID: <80.70e0ab9.27c29b5a@aol.com> The best of luck to your dad, Todd...hope things go easily and the results are positive. Take good care.....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 16:05:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Sinopoli, Cindy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:05:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] messages Message-ID: Please delete my address from the talk circle as I will no longer have this e-mail address. Thank you. Cindy Sinopoli csinopoli@broadband.att.com 303.858.3716 -----Original Message----- From: Georgia McSorley [mailto:westwind@candw.ky] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 7:19 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] messages Please delete our address from the talk circle. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 17:48:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:48:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's References: <20010217.125857.-329675.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <007201c09a9c$2065ebe0$7d904d0c@netzero> Clear this up for me if you can please, Bill. You mention the "gun barrels" that you were responsible for cleaning and installing. How about the rest of the gun mechanisms, ammo feed etc? All these guns were the reason the plane was called the "Flying Fortress", but curiously, there is very little data or literature about the guns' operation and maintenance. I've heard a couple of stories about a certain type of gun oil freezing up at high altitude rendering the guns inoperable ( I would think that a problem like this could cause some serious consernation during a fighter attack). I have yet to find a definitive book that addresses the technical aspects of the operating systems. Anybody have a spare "owners manual"? '. - D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill L Runnels" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's > Lloyd, I think the policy on cleaning guns varied with each squadron. I > was a bombardier with the 360th Squadron and I cleaned my guns after > each mission. I also had to install the gun barrels prior to takeoff and > remove them following the mission. > Bill Runnels > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 18:56:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:56:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) Message-ID: <3A9109F6.26967.D40D1@localhost> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: WLee289272@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:54:24 EST Subject: (no subject) To: 303-talk@303rdbga.com Hello to All.... Initial post... Wilbur Lee, Bombardier... 360th BS... Ed Shields Crew... At Molesworth from 7/16/44 to 9/28/44 (Magdeburg Raid) ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 20:14:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:14:33 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: <20010219.141434.-431087.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Lloyd, I am a poor one to ask about the 50's as my exposure was very limited. I assume the gunnery staff handled the general maintenance of the guns. All the crew did was load the guns and clean the barrels following conclusion of the flight. The cleaning was necessary due to the test firing even if they were not used for defense purposes. I don't recall hearing about freeze-up at altitude but I suppose that could happen because it was COLD. Hopefully someone with knowledge on the subject will pick up on your question. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 20:45:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:45:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) In-Reply-To: <3A9109F6.26967.D40D1@localhost> Message-ID: <3A913FA7.29569.48F0A3@localhost> > Hello to All.... Initial post... Wilbur Lee, Bombardier... 360th BS... Ed > Shields Crew... > At Molesworth from 7/16/44 to 9/28/44 (Magdeburg Raid) Welcome. I'd sure like to hear about Magdeburg! I've read about it in the microfilm records, and in Mr Gobrechts book, but it would be nice to hear about it from someone who was there. That must have been some mission. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 21:16:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:16:05 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) Message-ID: <83.713facc.27c2e715@aol.com> Greetings, Wilbur Lee, you'll like it here...such a bunch of stuff going on all the time. Regards from Fink's Crew Bombardier, 10/17/44 - 2/3/45. Missed Magdeburg T.G. Bob Hand, 360th Sq. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 19 21:36:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:36:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) References: <3A9109F6.26967.D40D1@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c09abc$10a5bbc0$f68e4d0c@netzero> Super! Someone else I can drive crazy. Welcome, Mr. Lee! Lloyd Grant, son of a 427th Nav. and resident gadfly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: WLee289272@aol.com > Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:54:24 EST > Subject: (no subject) > To: 303-talk@303rdbga.com > > > Hello to All.... Initial post... Wilbur Lee, Bombardier... 360th BS... Ed > Shields Crew... > At Molesworth from 7/16/44 to 9/28/44 (Magdeburg Raid) > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 00:18:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:18:00 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Bill: As you may have heard, for a few days in late September, the Lufwaffe adopted a desperate strategy... muster as many fighters as possible in a single group, dive through the cloud cover, shoot the hell out of the closest group, and then dive for the ground to minimize their losses... on the Magneburg Raid, the 303rd happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time..... we were jumped by up to 200 fighters, coming from 6:00, and the fight lasted less than 15 minutes... we lost 10 out of 12 B-17's during this brief fight... as we were flying low lead, and as we lost our intercom in the first pass, I only saw one FW-190.... he slid into OUR formation, flaps down.... 90 degrees from our position, pumping 20MM's into the lead squadron.... talk about guts! ... I managed to get off a short burst, but he immediately dove for the deck ... there is a brief recount of my report in the book, and under Ed Shields Crew in the 360th photo section.... although I was not aware of it at the time... our left wing was on fire, and when the gas had been consumed, the remaining fumes exploded, taking off the wing and throwing the ship into a tight spin, heading straight down.... only two of us survived... I was pinned to the top of the compartment... and realizing that plexiglass nose had been blown off, I grabbed the broken edge, jackknifed my body over the edge and the slip stream flipped me out... the engineer was blown clear by the explosion, and popped his chute.... so, a brief but fierce fight... and probably the greatest loss suffered by the 303rd. Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 01:49:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (pfico) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:49:21 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Temporary vacation References: <8251-3A913EF8-3029@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <005f01c09adf$6a31b180$cf604dd1@net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Susskind > Please delete my address from the mailing list as of February 20th. > I'll be back when I get out of the hospital. Thanks. Hal Susskind Hal - Best success and health to you while the ground crew works on your landing gear. We'll all look forward to your safe return. Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 05:09:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:09:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) References: Message-ID: <000b01c09afb$5fff2780$ab194e0c@netzero> I visited your crew photo and read the story there. Not a happy memory, but thanks for sharing it. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) (no subject) > Hi Bill: As you may have heard, for a few days in late September, the > Lufwaffe > adopted a desperate strategy... muster as many fighters as possible in a > single > group, dive through the cloud cover, shoot the hell out of the closest group, > and > then dive for the ground to minimize their losses... on the Magneburg Raid, > the > 303rd happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time..... we were jumped > by up to 200 fighters, coming from 6:00, and the fight lasted less than 15 > minutes... > we lost 10 out of 12 B-17's during this brief fight... as we were flying low > lead, > and as we lost our intercom in the first pass, I only saw one FW-190.... > he slid > into OUR formation, flaps down.... 90 degrees from our position, pumping > 20MM's > into the lead squadron.... talk about guts! ... I managed to get off a short > burst, but > he immediately dove for the deck ... there is a brief recount of my report in > the > book, and under Ed Shields Crew in the 360th photo section.... although I was > not aware of it at the time... our left wing was on fire, and when the gas > had been > consumed, the remaining fumes exploded, taking off the wing and throwing the > ship into a tight spin, heading straight down.... only two of us survived... > I was > pinned to the top of the compartment... and realizing that plexiglass nose had > been blown off, I grabbed the broken edge, jackknifed my body over the edge > and the slip stream flipped me out... the engineer was blown clear by the > explosion, and popped his chute.... so, a brief but fierce fight... and > probably > the greatest loss suffered by the 303rd. > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 17:11:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:11:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW Message-ID: <003101c09b60$23d1eda0$c38e4d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09B36.39830140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Being taken POW was no happy situation to be in (although it probably = was happier than some alternative fate). I have read stories, British = and American, that when the Germans interrogated you they had = information about you that in some cases even your friends and loved = ones didn't know. If true, this must have had shocking psycological = effect over and above the trauma of a bailout. If there are any former = POWs on the ring who would like to comment, your input(s) would be = enlightening. How did our intelligence resources measure up? What instructions did = you have if captured beyond Name , Rank, and Serial #? Who had the = responsibility for interrogating captured Luftwaffe air crew? Thanks. = Lg. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09B36.39830140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Being taken POW was no happy situation = to be in=20 (although it probably was happier than some alternative fate).  I = have read=20 stories, British and American,  that when the Germans interrogated = you they=20 had information about you that in some cases even your friends and loved = ones=20 didn't know.  If true, this must have had shocking psycological = effect over=20 and above the trauma of a bailout.  If there are any former POWs on = the=20 ring who would like to comment, your input(s) would be=20 enlightening.
How did our intelligence resources = measure=20 up?  What instructions did you have if captured beyond Name , Rank, = and=20 Serial #?  Who had the responsibility for interrogating captured = Luftwaffe=20 air crew?  Thanks.  Lg.
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09B36.39830140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 17:38:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Harold Susskind) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:38:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3443-3A92AB88-9582@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> LLoyd Grant What do you mean by "pass on accurately?" Ar you gathering all this information to write a book? Was just curious. I'll be off line for a week or so. Hal Susskind From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 17:55:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:55:24 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #166 -The 50s Message-ID: <26.11775053.27c4098c@aol.com> On the March 3, 1944, Mission to Berlin (Aborted due to weather),all of our guns froze. We were told to remove all oil or grease from the action. I experienced a similar result in Alaska at subzero weather while trying to fire a . 22 cal semi-automacic pistol. I later boiled the entire weapon in water to remove all traces of lubrication. It fired after that. I believe that there is a dry (powder) lubrication on the market. Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 18:36:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:36:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's References: <3443-3A92AB88-9582@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000701c09b6c$15c243c0$c38e4d0c@netzero> I am asking these questions #1. To dispel personal misconceptions I have had about flight operations etc. in the B-17 (they were many) #2. To try to develop an accurate mental picture of the realities surrounding these operations ( this aspect is still challenging, but coming into focus) #3. Yes, perhaps, one day to write, or at least contribute to , an accurate history (and as long as I am dreaming a screen-play)-(something like 12 OClock High, with some Saving Private Ryan realities) #4. To let men like yourself, Hal, know that what you guys did is not to be taken lightly by my generation, nor future generations. You all have saved me years research and faulty understandings. I have an abiding respect for everyone of you, and I earnestly hope that it never comes into doubt. Initially, it was idle curiousity about some photos, a Sq. patch, and a war story my father related before he died. It has grown into something a lot more intense. I have saved every relevant comment from day one. I have made friends with people I would otherwise never have known. And, Hal, I am truly grateful in ways that some of you may hard to believe. ( I hope this covers the gist of it). :-D. It is probably time for me to take a sabatical and try to digest what I have learned. I don't speak just for myself , Hal, when I wish you godspeed and fast recovery. Thumbs-up, my friend. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's > LLoyd Grant What do you > mean by "pass on accurately?" Ar you gathering all this information to > write a book? Was just curious. I'll be off line for a week or so. > Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 18:43:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:43:04 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW Message-ID: Hi Lloyd: You are correct... when questioned at Obrerusel , trhe first thing the officier brought out was a copy of the secret order transfering our crew to the 303rd!... he then went through my complete file... every AF school or training center that I attended.... didn't miss a one.... due to the heavy 8th AF losses at that time, Oberusel was jammed with POW's, so my "interragation" lasted less than an hour... I was on my way to Dulag Luft the same afternoon. Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 19:15:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:15:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW References: Message-ID: <000501c09b71$84d5fcc0$99184e0c@netzero> Will, thanks. I am glad to have your comments, insights, and recollections. I hope you won't mind a follow up question. How long was it from the time you were captured to the time you underwent interrogation? Did you ever discover how the Germans obtained the information they confronted you with? ( I think I understand that the idea was to awe you with the information they had gathered in hopes that they might trick the unwary into divulging additional information. Is this your reading of it?, Or, was the interrogator, in your opinion, "unconcerned"?). Please remember this, I ask a lot of questions here. If I ever ask you anything that evokes memories that you would rather not resurrect, or that are offensive in anyway, I rely on you to tell me to back off. Deal? Best, Lloyd Grant. From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] POW > Hi Lloyd: > You are correct... when questioned at Obrerusel , trhe first thing the > officier brought > out was a copy of the secret order transfering our crew to the 303rd!... he > then went > through my complete file... every AF school or training center that I > attended.... > didn't miss a one.... due to the heavy 8th AF losses at that time, Oberusel > was > jammed with POW's, so my "interragation" lasted less than an hour... I was > on my way to Dulag Luft the same afternoon. > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:04:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:04:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- Message-ID: <001b01c09b78$4f701460$39bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C09B46.0376B0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He joined = the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an = electrician an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. >From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - or = would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . Maurice=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C09B46.0376B0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A good friend of mine flew the hump = during his tour=20 of duty. He joined the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think.=20 He became an electrician an never flew again- nor did he express = any=20 desire.
 
From what I can "over hear" on the = forum this would=20 seem unusual - or would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of = question.??  =20 .
Maurice 
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C09B46.0376B0A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:30:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dan Traub) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:30:11 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] hello Message-ID: <000c01c09b7b$eea446c0$8db44fd1@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09B38.DE359020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi , I'm Dan Traub, Forty -year old interrested citizen in southern California. (Newbury = Park). I have a friend, Buckey Rouse (F.L. Rouse), who I believe was in = the 303rd, Fontana's crew, 360th squadron. Buckey is missing from the = restaurant where i saw him for years and I'm trying to find out what = happened to him. I love my country and I respect what folks like you and Buckey did, and = I am very grateful, I try to teach my children this. Thankyou, Dan Traub, Waiter/Actor=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09B38.DE359020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi ,
 I'm Dan Traub,
Forty -year old interrested citizen in = southern=20 California. (Newbury Park). I have a friend, Buckey Rouse (F.L. Rouse), = who I=20 believe was in  the 303rd, Fontana's crew, 360th squadron. Buckey = is=20 missing from the restaurant where i saw him for years and I'm trying to = find out=20 what happened to him.

I love my country and I respect what folks like you and Buckey did, = and I am=20 very grateful, I try to teach my children this.
Thankyou,
Dan=20 Traub,
Waiter/Actor=20

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C09B38.DE359020-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:37:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:37:08 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- Message-ID: Hi Maurice! I've known many pilots who flew combat during the war in all Theaters. Many have told me after they rotated out of the service, they tried to fly for a living, but the maintenance practices of the smaller operations scared them more than flak or fighters! Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:04:17 -0600 > >A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He joined the >reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an electrician an >never flew again- nor did he express any desire. > >From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - or would >this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . >Maurice > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:40:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:40:06 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine Message-ID: Looking for an an address and phone for Clem J. Pine from Klammouth Falls, Oregon. Clem did 25 with the 303rd, came back to the States for a month, and reupped. He joined the 91st BG(H) and was shot down 16.8.44 enroute to Halle, Germany on Lt. Marpil's crew from the 324th BS. Is he a member of the 303rd Association? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:41:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dan Traub) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:41:15 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse Message-ID: <001701c09b7d$7908a1c0$8db44fd1@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09B3A.69E1FB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello ..=20 F.L. "Buckey" Rouse was a B17tailgunner over Germany in WW2, Atlantic = theatre, based out of England). (I think he was USAF

Hello ..

F.L. “Buckey” Rouse was a B17tailgunner over Germany in = WW2, Atlantic=20 theatre, based out of England). (I think he was USAF<Eighth Air = Force, 1st=20 Air Division, 303rd Bomb Group, Fontana‘s Crew, 12-31-44).

He used to come to the restaurant (COCO's Bakery and Restaurant in = Thousand=20 Oaks, Ca) every day with his wife, Mildred. I know them pretty well, = although=20 not outside of work. Anyway, they disappeared (stopped coming) around = New Year's=20 Day 2001. Do you know him? If so, can I find out if they are OK? (He is = /was=20 involved in B17 veteran groups) I love my country and I respect what = folks like=20 you and Buckey did, and I am very grateful, I try to teach my children=20 this.
Thank-you,
Dan Traub,
Waiter/Actor=20

"mail to: email gardenseed25@prodigy.net"

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09B3A.69E1FB80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:46:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:46:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- References: <001b01c09b78$4f701460$39bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <000d01c09b7e$39ab8320$a4904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C09B54.4ED4C920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was selling used cars for the local = Chevy dealership. One of the salesmen was a fellow from Plant City, Fl. = named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black Sheep Sq.. I asked = him once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me that once you had = seen Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except home. = Hank was quite a character and I always thought he was just full of = Bravo Sierra ( a good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess). = Later on I saw his character portrayed on the TV series. I wish I had = listened better to some of the stories he told. I like to fly, but I never got a pilots license. It is very expensive = and today the airways are so complex and rule bound it is not really as = much fun as it used to be. Maybe your friend felt the same. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Maurice Paulk=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He joined = the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an = electrician an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - or = would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . Maurice=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C09B54.4ED4C920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was = selling used=20 cars for the local Chevy dealership.  One of the salesmen was a = fellow from=20 Plant City, Fl. named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black = Sheep=20 Sq..  I asked him once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me = that once=20 you had seen Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except=20 home.  Hank was quite a character and I always thought he was just = full of=20 Bravo Sierra ( a good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess).  = Later=20 on I saw his character portrayed on the TV series.  I wish I had = listened=20 better to some of the stories he told.
I like to fly, but I never got a pilots = license.  It is very expensive and today the airways are so complex = and=20 rule bound it is not really as much fun as it used to be.  Maybe = your=20 friend felt the same. 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Maurice = Paulk=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, = 2001 3:04=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle = curiousity=20 --

A good friend of mine flew the hump = during his=20 tour of duty. He joined the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I = think.=20 He became an electrician an never flew again- nor did he express = any=20 desire.
 
From what I can "over hear" on the = forum this=20 would seem unusual - or would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of=20 question.??   .
Maurice 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C09B54.4ED4C920-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 20:58:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:58:56 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW Message-ID: LLoyd: After our capture we were taken to an air base near Hanover... spent the night... next morning left for Oberusel under the guard of a pilot who was going on leave... although the total distance was only 200 miles, it took almost one week by train.... re the Lufwaffe files, we had been brief to expect it... every home time paper reported on the progress of "their boys" ... all the Germans had to do was to subscribe to every paper and build a file for every prospective POW... ... Lloyd , I'll pass on any future questions. Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 21:12:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:12:13 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The 50's Message-ID: Lloyd: There are no stupid or off limits questions in my book. They only way for you and me to understand what those guys did during the war is by asking the questions and getting the answers. Yes, I have pissed a few vets off with what have appeared to be stupid or insensitve questions, but how else can we learn. When I started learning about the Eighth when I was 12 (now 44), I set out to know as much as humanly possible about that time in history, not just the air battles, but everything from orders from HQ to the Home Front to the music of the era. And I must say I too have made more friends with 8th AF vets than I have from my own age group. There is a very special bond between us die hard historians and they guys who lived it. So ask any and all questions. Someone out there will respond, trust me because I think I have asked more stupid or offensive questions in the last 32 years than anyone. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:36:43 -0500 > >I am asking these questions #1. To dispel personal misconceptions I have >had >about flight operations etc. in the B-17 (they were many) #2. To try to >develop an accurate mental picture of the realities surrounding these >operations ( this aspect is still challenging, but coming into focus) #3. >Yes, perhaps, one day to write, or at least contribute to , an accurate >history (and as long as I am dreaming a screen-play)-(something like 12 >OClock High, with some Saving Private Ryan realities) #4. To let men like >yourself, Hal, know that what you guys did is not to be taken lightly by my >generation, nor future generations. >You all have saved me years research and faulty understandings. I have an >abiding respect for everyone of you, and I earnestly hope that it never >comes into doubt. >Initially, it was idle curiousity about some photos, a Sq. patch, and a war >story my father related before he died. It has grown into something a lot >more intense. I have saved every relevant comment from day one. I have >made friends with people I would otherwise never have known. And, Hal, I am >truly grateful in ways that some of you may hard to believe. ( I hope this >covers the gist of it). :-D. >It is probably time for me to take a sabatical and try to digest what I >have >learned. >I don't speak just for myself , Hal, when I wish you godspeed and fast >recovery. Thumbs-up, my friend. Lloyd. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Harold Susskind" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:38 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The 50's > > > > LLoyd Grant What do you > > mean by "pass on accurately?" Ar you gathering all this information to > > write a book? Was just curious. I'll be off line for a week or so. > > Hal Susskind > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 21:18:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:18:55 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Code Talkers Message-ID: Were any of you guys trained as "Code Talkers." MIS-X, a division of the SAS, trained air crews on how to write letters, using a matrix of the first letter of words in a sentence, say the first, third, fifth, etc. When compiled in the matrix, the true message was revealed. MIS-X trained some airmen at Bodney and Boxted. They also smuggled pieces of radios into the camps in baseballs, money and documents in games, etc. I even heard they included hand guns in some Red Cross Parcels. Can any of you shed any more light on this subject? All records of MIS-X were destroyed at the end of the war from what I have been told. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Talk" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] POW >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:11:16 -0500 > >Being taken POW was no happy situation to be in (although it probably was >happier than some alternative fate). I have read stories, British and >American, that when the Germans interrogated you they had information >about you that in some cases even your friends and loved ones didn't know. >If true, this must have had shocking psycological effect over and above the >trauma of a bailout. If there are any former POWs on the ring who would >like to comment, your input(s) would be enlightening. >How did our intelligence resources measure up? What instructions did you >have if captured beyond Name , Rank, and Serial #? Who had the >responsibility for interrogating captured Luftwaffe air crew? Thanks. Lg. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 21:29:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:29:01 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- Message-ID: Lloyd, my friend, you are dead wrong about flying! It's not that expensive, and the rules exist for your protection. I could legally fly airplanes alone before I could drive a car alone. I've been flying so long that when I started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe! You would never regret learning to fly and getting your ticket. One of my flying instructors had been a waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never speak to me about it. "Why does a young, snot-nosed kid what to know about that awful time in history?" he would tell me. In 1973, most of the vets had full time jobs, had children to raise and bills to pay. I never did get Oren Lauer's full story and it always seemed ashame. He got cancer and decided to end it all one day and on final nosed it over into the ground! >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:46:36 -0500 > >Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was selling used cars for the local >Chevy dealership. One of the salesmen was a fellow from Plant City, Fl. >named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black Sheep Sq.. I asked him >once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me that once you had seen >Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except home. Hank was >quite a character and I always thought he was just full of Bravo Sierra ( a >good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess). Later on I saw his >character portrayed on the TV series. I wish I had listened better to some >of the stories he told. >I like to fly, but I never got a pilots license. It is very expensive and >today the airways are so complex and rule bound it is not really as much >fun as it used to be. Maybe your friend felt the same. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Paulk > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He joined >the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an electrician >an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. > > From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - or >would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . > Maurice > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 21:54:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:54:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse In-Reply-To: <001701c09b7d$7908a1c0$8db44fd1@computer> Message-ID: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> > > F.L. "Buckey" Rouse was a B17tailgunner over Germany in WW2, Atlantic theatre, > based out of England). (I think he was USAF 303rd Bomb Group, Fontana's Crew, 12-31-44). He's not a member of the 303rd BG Association. Our new CD index doesn't show him as flying any missions. He is listed as a 2Lt tail gunner, so I suspect he may have flown as a tailgunner/observer, or been scheduled to fly as one. He would not have really been a tail gunner. I suggest you search the white pages online at places such as www.switchboard.com and see if you can find him. When our historian reads this, he may have more info. Good luck, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 21:54:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:54:59 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine References: Message-ID: <008e01c09b8a$b287a4c0$f80110ac@Betac.com> Kevin- He isn't listed in the 1999 303rd directory, nor is his widow or any family members listed as members of the Association. Might try the 91st guys. I have included Steve Pena from the East Anglia Aviation Society as a cc (they operate the Bassingbourn Tower Museum). Good luck. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine > Looking for an an address and phone for Clem J. Pine from Klammouth Falls, > Oregon. Clem did 25 with the 303rd, came back to the States for a month, > and reupped. He joined the 91st BG(H) and was shot down 16.8.44 enroute to > Halle, Germany on Lt. Marpil's crew from the 324th BS. Is he a member of > the 303rd Association? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 22:20:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:20:40 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine Message-ID: Hi Brian: Yes, I know steve quite well and his wife alison - great folks! When I was there in 1999, Steve gave me a ride around Bassingbourn in his 1944 JEEP "Numbnuts!" What a thrill that was! Kevin >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >CC: >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:54:59 -0000 > >Kevin- >He isn't listed in the 1999 303rd directory, nor is his widow or any family >members listed as members of the Association. Might try the 91st guys. I >have included Steve Pena from the East Anglia Aviation Society as a cc >(they >operate the Bassingbourn Tower Museum). Good luck. > >Brian >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kevin Pearson >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:40 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine > > > > Looking for an an address and phone for Clem J. Pine from Klammouth >Falls, > > Oregon. Clem did 25 with the 303rd, came back to the States for a >month, > > and reupped. He joined the 91st BG(H) and was shot down 16.8.44 enroute >to > > Halle, Germany on Lt. Marpil's crew from the 324th BS. Is he a member >of > > the 303rd Association? > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 22:25:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:25:49 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine References: <008e01c09b8a$b287a4c0$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001301c09b8c$144a1520$4809f4cc@e0y0k4> Kevin, I have a 91BGMA directory from about 1980, and the two latest ones. Don't see him in any of them. He is listed in the 91st BG "roll of honor", as being shot down on the Halle mission. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian McGuire" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine > Kevin- > He isn't listed in the 1999 303rd directory, nor is his widow or any family > members listed as members of the Association. Might try the 91st guys. I > have included Steve Pena from the East Anglia Aviation Society as a cc (they > operate the Bassingbourn Tower Museum). Good luck. > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:40 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Clem J. Pine > > > > Looking for an an address and phone for Clem J. Pine from Klammouth Falls, > > Oregon. Clem did 25 with the 303rd, came back to the States for a month, > > and reupped. He joined the 91st BG(H) and was shot down 16.8.44 enroute > to > > Halle, Germany on Lt. Marpil's crew from the 324th BS. Is he a member of > > the 303rd Association? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 22:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:41:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- References: Message-ID: <001001c09b8e$49ce6be0$568f4d0c@netzero> Kev, Like I said, I love to fly. I had my first lesson in 1967 when I worked for Mary Gaffney at the Tamiami Airport (Kendall Flying School). She was a hot shot. Ever heard of her? As far as the expense, well, that's relative; usually when you gots de moola you don't gots de time and visa-versa. About the complexity of airspace these days, well, I'm glad I live in the area I do. It isn't quite so bad as Tampa/St. Pete. I love to talk about flying, so watch out! You see here what I can do with question marks. Cheers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > Lloyd, my friend, you are dead wrong about flying! It's not that expensive, > and the rules exist for your protection. I could legally fly airplanes > alone before I could drive a car alone. I've been flying so long that when > I started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe! You > would never regret learning to fly and getting your ticket. One of my > flying instructors had been a waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > speak to me about it. "Why does a young, snot-nosed kid what to know about > that awful time in history?" he would tell me. In 1973, most of the vets > had full time jobs, had children to raise and bills to pay. I never did get > Oren Lauer's full story and it always seemed ashame. He got cancer and > decided to end it all one day and on final nosed it over into the ground! > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:46:36 -0500 > > > >Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was selling used cars for the local > >Chevy dealership. One of the salesmen was a fellow from Plant City, Fl. > >named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black Sheep Sq.. I asked him > >once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me that once you had seen > >Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except home. Hank was > >quite a character and I always thought he was just full of Bravo Sierra ( a > >good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess). Later on I saw his > >character portrayed on the TV series. I wish I had listened better to some > >of the stories he told. > >I like to fly, but I never got a pilots license. It is very expensive and > >today the airways are so complex and rule bound it is not really as much > >fun as it used to be. Maybe your friend felt the same. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maurice Paulk > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > > > > A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He joined > >the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an electrician > >an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. > > > > From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - or > >would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . > > Maurice > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 22:50:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:50:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #167 - 19 msgs Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, I had the same experience as many others had about the interrogations. I was told to give only name, rank and serial number but when I was told all the information about myself that the Germans had, I was startled, to say the least. I didn't confirm any of the information orally but I'm sure the surprised look on my face gave me away. Later I was approached by a "Red Cross Official" with a card that I could write to my parents. At first I declined but later I did use the card to write home and say that I was a POW. We were given writing privileges in our POW camp so I don't guess I gave them any information that they didn't have. I was shot down on March 26 and got to the interrogation center about three days later. I spent the first night in an underground cell, the second night in a jail in Brussels then to the center. About questions, they do not bother me, if they do I just wont answer them. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 22:58:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:58:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse In-Reply-To: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> References: <001701c09b7d$7908a1c0$8db44fd1@computer> Message-ID: <3A92B051.25647.234F9F0@localhost> > > > > F.L. "Buckey" Rouse was a B17tailgunner over Germany in WW2, Atlantic theatre, > > based out of England). (I think he was USAF > 303rd Bomb Group, Fontana's Crew, 12-31-44). > > He's not a member of the 303rd BG Association. Our new CD > index doesn't show him as flying any missions. Gary.... I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My microfilm shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like Rouse, since it is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the 360th on Dec 31, however the microfilm doesn't show anyone of that name joining anytime in December, so I'm guessing that "House" was mis-read as "Rouse", and since Dec 31 was the only time that name showed up, thats the date that was used. Just a guess. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 23:13:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:13:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse In-Reply-To: <3A92B051.25647.234F9F0@localhost> References: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> Message-ID: <3A9297C1.10220.10BF94D@localhost> Frederick L. House was on Mission #294 and so was Fontana. I assume they were on the same crew that day (no official CD to check on for a few days). He flew 30 missions (#215 - #304). You're probably right about the typo. Frederick L. House is one of our Missing Comrades. Dan - are you looking for FL Rouse or FL House? > I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. > > Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My microfilm > shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like Rouse, > since it > is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the 360th on > Dec 31, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 20 23:41:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:41:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #167 - 19 msgs References: Message-ID: <000501c09b96$a1f101e0$7e194e0c@netzero> Bill, youre a champ. Thanks. The reason I was curious about how long in took to get to an interrogation center is more in tryiing to figure out how the Jerries got one individuals file to the interrogating officer as quickly as they seem to have been able to. Considering the diversity of unit assignments of the POWs the Luftwaffe ( I assume it was the Luftwaffe and not the Gestapo) must have been very efficient. Maybe someone with a Luftwaffe veteran contact could shed some light. [ When I was in the Army I was told that the Russians didn't really need to spy on us, all they had to do was subscribe to some news papers and magazines]. Wink. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #167 - 19 msgs > Hi Lloyd, > I had the same experience as many others had about the interrogations. I was > told to give only name, rank and serial number but when I was told all the > information about myself that the Germans had, I was startled, to say the > least. I didn't confirm any of the information orally but I'm sure the > surprised look on my face gave me away. Later I was approached by a "Red > Cross Official" with a card that I could write to my parents. At first I > declined but later I did use the card to write home and say that I was a POW. > We were given writing privileges in our POW camp so I don't guess I gave them > any information that they didn't have. I was shot down on March 26 and got to > the interrogation center about three days later. I spent the first night in > an underground cell, the second night in a jail in Brussels then to the > center. > About questions, they do not bother me, if they do I just wont answer them. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 00:03:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:03:57 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse References: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> <3A9297C1.10220.10BF94D@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c09b99$c9a7e8e0$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Gary, I guess I need to get one of the CDs of the 303rd. Who do I need to get in touch with and send the funds to? Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse > Frederick L. House was on Mission #294 and so was Fontana. I > assume they were on the same crew that day (no official CD to > check on for a few days). He flew 30 missions (#215 - #304). > You're probably right about the typo. Frederick L. House is one of > our Missing Comrades. > > Dan - are you looking for FL Rouse or FL House? > > > I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. > > > > Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My microfilm > > shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like Rouse, > > since it > > is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the 360th on > > Dec 31, > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 00:09:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:09:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CD Order Form In-Reply-To: <000901c09b99$c9a7e8e0$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A92A4E1.28096.13F41F9@localhost> The order form is here: Print it out and send it to Ed Miller. http://www.303rdbga.com/cd-order-form.html > Hi Gary, > I guess I need to get one of the CDs of the 303rd. Who do I need to get in > touch with and send the funds to? > Gordy. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 00:15:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:15:19 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CD Order Form References: <3A92A4E1.28096.13F41F9@localhost> Message-ID: <002301c09b9b$601997a0$e909f4cc@e0y0k4> Will do. Thanks. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:09 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] CD Order Form > > The order form is here: Print it out and send it to Ed Miller. > http://www.303rdbga.com/cd-order-form.html > > > Hi Gary, > > I guess I need to get one of the CDs of the 303rd. Who do I need to get in > > touch with and send the funds to? > > Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 01:59:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dan Traub) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:59:44 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse References: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> <3A9297C1.10220.10BF94D@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c09ba9$f82c3940$04b44fd1@computer> "Rouse", definately, understand tthis is just a regular customer at my restaurant who stopped coming in suddenly, all i know is that he always wore a "B17" hat, said he was on several bombing runs over Germany, and was fairly invoved in reunions. Dan Traub PS I am going to continue looking in the 8th Airforce. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse > Frederick L. House was on Mission #294 and so was Fontana. I > assume they were on the same crew that day (no official CD to > check on for a few days). He flew 30 missions (#215 - #304). > You're probably right about the typo. Frederick L. House is one of > our Missing Comrades. > > Dan - are you looking for FL Rouse or FL House? > > > I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. > > > > Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My microfilm > > shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like Rouse, > > since it > > is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the 360th on > > Dec 31, > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 02:16:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dan Traub) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:16:14 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse References: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> <3A9297C1.10220.10BF94D@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c09bac$453bc8c0$04b44fd1@computer> Rouse", definately, understand tthis is just a regular customer at my restaurant who stopped coming in suddenly, all i know is that he always wore a "B17" hat, said he was on several bombing runs over Germany, and was fairly invoved in reunions. Dan Traub PS I am going to continue looking in the 8th Airforce. ----- Original Message ----- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse > Frederick L. House was on Mission #294 and so was Fontana. I > assume they were on the same crew that day (no official CD to > check on for a few days). He flew 30 missions (#215 - #304). > You're probably right about the typo. Frederick L. House is one of > our Missing Comrades. > > Dan - are you looking for FL Rouse or FL House? > > > I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. > > > > Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My microfilm > > shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like Rouse, > > since it > > is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the 360th on > > Dec 31, > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 04:23:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:23:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse References: <3A928520.29447.C33051@localhost> <3A9297C1.10220.10BF94D@localhost> <000901c09bac$453bc8c0$04b44fd1@computer> Message-ID: <001b01c09bbe$039594c0$d28f4d0c@netzero> Well, Dan, at least you got an idea of the kind of help you can expect to get here. Good luck with your quest, we hope it is successful. Stay in touch. LG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Traub" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse > Rouse", definately, understand tthis is just a regular customer at my > restaurant who stopped coming in suddenly, all i know is that he always wore > a "B17" hat, said he was on several bombing runs over Germany, and was > fairly invoved in reunions. > Dan Traub > PS I am going to continue looking in the 8th Airforce. > ----- Original Message ----- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Moncur" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Buckey Rouse > > > > Frederick L. House was on Mission #294 and so was Fontana. I > > assume they were on the same crew that day (no official CD to > > check on for a few days). He flew 30 missions (#215 - #304). > > You're probably right about the typo. Frederick L. House is one of > > our Missing Comrades. > > > > Dan - are you looking for FL Rouse or FL House? > > > > > I think the F.L.Rouse in the personnel list is a typo. > > > > > > Since you seem to have the new CD, check the Dec 31 1944 mission. My > microfilm > > > shows a Frederick L House flying with Fontanna (although it looks like > Rouse, > > > since it > > > is blurry). The listing in the Personnel list shows Rouse joining the > 360th on > > > Dec 31, > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 14:19:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:19:12 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- Message-ID: Lloyd: You flew with Mary Gaffney!? Wow! What a thrill that must have been! And since you live in Florida, watch out for those thunder heads - they are murder! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:41:35 -0500 > >Kev, Like I said, I love to fly. I had my first lesson in 1967 when I >worked for Mary Gaffney at the Tamiami Airport (Kendall Flying School). >She >was a hot shot. Ever heard of her? As far as the expense, well, that's >relative; usually when you gots de moola you don't gots de time and >visa-versa. About the complexity of airspace these days, well, I'm glad I >live in the area I do. It isn't quite so bad as Tampa/St. Pete. I love to >talk about flying, so watch out! You see here what I can do with question >marks. Cheers. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Pearson" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:29 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > > Lloyd, my friend, you are dead wrong about flying! It's not that >expensive, > > and the rules exist for your protection. I could legally fly airplanes > > alone before I could drive a car alone. I've been flying so long that >when > > I started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe! >You > > would never regret learning to fly and getting your ticket. One of my > > flying instructors had been a waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > > speak to me about it. "Why does a young, snot-nosed kid what to know >about > > that awful time in history?" he would tell me. In 1973, most of the >vets > > had full time jobs, had children to raise and bills to pay. I never did >get > > Oren Lauer's full story and it always seemed ashame. He got cancer and > > decided to end it all one day and on final nosed it over into the >ground! > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:46:36 -0500 > > > > > >Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was selling used cars for the local > > >Chevy dealership. One of the salesmen was a fellow from Plant City, >Fl. > > >named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black Sheep Sq.. I asked >him > > >once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me that once you had seen > > >Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except home. Hank >was > > >quite a character and I always thought he was just full of Bravo Sierra >( a > > >good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess). Later on I saw his > > >character portrayed on the TV series. I wish I had listened better to >some > > >of the stories he told. > > >I like to fly, but I never got a pilots license. It is very expensive >and > > >today the airways are so complex and rule bound it is not really as >much > > >fun as it used to be. Maybe your friend felt the same. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Maurice Paulk > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > > > > > > > A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He >joined > > >the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an >electrician > > >an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. > > > > > > From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - >or > > >would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . > > > Maurice > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 16:08:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:08:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: Message-ID: <10052.982771720@www37.gmx.net> Hi, I am Bernd Schlueter (difficult to spell, especially if I write it in German: "Schlüter"). And it is rather difficult to notice me among you, for you seem to be thousends in my small swiss mailbox. I am riding here on such a small flak-shell, which my father let produce in billions, when he worked as an technical officer in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. I can tell you, he was not rather pleased with the circumstances in the government office, but the German pilots were ok. He died inmidst of 16 year old boys, at the hottest place near Arromanches/Normandy. He was angry with some of his higher officers and though he knew, he would never come back, he went to be buried soon on a very nice English pilots' churchyard there. Sorry, that you did much in favour of Mr. Stalin, but that war was necessary and one Third of Germany was freed by You of the dictator and the conditions made by the Allieds after the first world war. Some people from the United States saved me and my girlfriend later in Nepal, when we had become victims of murderers and of the incredible behaviour of German officers of the ambassy. So, I think, we need a world police like you and your sons. The gunshots from your fighters to my beloved baby carriage and my mother on the field are forgiven! And I know some German airforce veterans here... Bernd -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 17:38:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:38:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- References: Message-ID: <000701c09c2d$0b128b80$60904d0c@netzero> Kevin, Actually I only flew with Mary one time. I begged and nagged and finally got to go for a ride in her Stearman. We flew out over the swamps to "practice". I got a first hand experience of what immanent death in a crashing plane might look like. It took me two hours to clean my puke out of the front cockpit.(she docked me 2 hrs pay too--min. wage back then was about 1.25). Mary was a hell of a pilot and she taught it all including helo. She was also an FAA examiner. My guess is that if you checked out with Mary Gaffney you were on your way to becoming one hell of a good pilot too. I think Mary had one of the first Pitts Specials. It looked like a toy .It was so small you could park in a shed. Quite a novelty in those days. I found out I had an eye injury that precluded my chances of ever being a military pilot so I lost interest in flying lessons. If I ever do get a ticket all I'd ever want is VFR in puddle jumper as close to the deck as possible. Grant. (Ps. Mary Gaffney is alive and well. I got an e-mail last year from a gal that was sweating out a check ride with her). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > Lloyd: You flew with Mary Gaffney!? Wow! What a thrill that must have > been! And since you live in Florida, watch out for those thunder heads - > they are murder! > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:41:35 -0500 > > > >Kev, Like I said, I love to fly. I had my first lesson in 1967 when I > >worked for Mary Gaffney at the Tamiami Airport (Kendall Flying School). > >She > >was a hot shot. Ever heard of her? As far as the expense, well, that's > >relative; usually when you gots de moola you don't gots de time and > >visa-versa. About the complexity of airspace these days, well, I'm glad I > >live in the area I do. It isn't quite so bad as Tampa/St. Pete. I love to > >talk about flying, so watch out! You see here what I can do with question > >marks. Cheers. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kevin Pearson" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:29 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > > > > > Lloyd, my friend, you are dead wrong about flying! It's not that > >expensive, > > > and the rules exist for your protection. I could legally fly airplanes > > > alone before I could drive a car alone. I've been flying so long that > >when > > > I started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe! > >You > > > would never regret learning to fly and getting your ticket. One of my > > > flying instructors had been a waist gunner on a Fort, but he would never > > > speak to me about it. "Why does a young, snot-nosed kid what to know > >about > > > that awful time in history?" he would tell me. In 1973, most of the > >vets > > > had full time jobs, had children to raise and bills to pay. I never did > >get > > > Oren Lauer's full story and it always seemed ashame. He got cancer and > > > decided to end it all one day and on final nosed it over into the > >ground! > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:46:36 -0500 > > > > > > > >Years ago, 1979 or there abouts, I was selling used cars for the local > > > >Chevy dealership. One of the salesmen was a fellow from Plant City, > >Fl. > > > >named Hank Michowski who used to fly with the Black Sheep Sq.. I asked > >him > > > >once if he still flew, or missed it. He told me that once you had seen > > > >Rabaul there was no place left to want to fly to, except home. Hank > >was > > > >quite a character and I always thought he was just full of Bravo Sierra > >( a > > > >good trait, they say, for a salesman to possess). Later on I saw his > > > >character portrayed on the TV series. I wish I had listened better to > >some > > > >of the stories he told. > > > >I like to fly, but I never got a pilots license. It is very expensive > >and > > > >today the airways are so complex and rule bound it is not really as > >much > > > >fun as it used to be. Maybe your friend felt the same. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Maurice Paulk > > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM > > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- > > > > > > > > > > > > A good friend of mine flew the hump during his tour of duty. He > >joined > > > >the reserves and retired as a Lt. Col.--I think. He became an > >electrician > > > >an never flew again- nor did he express any desire. > > > > > > > > From what I can "over hear" on the forum this would seem unusual - > >or > > > >would this be another M.Y.O.B. type of question.?? . > > > > Maurice > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >303rd-Talk mailing list > >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 17:55:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:55:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <10052.982771720@www37.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001101c09c2f$7fdf23e0$60904d0c@netzero> Wie gehts, Bernd, Was your father a flak battery officer, or a pilot? I did not quite understand. Are you telling us that it was your mother pushing a pram that the P-51 pilot fired on? (he was sent to prison for that, I think). I don't know the whole story, but a lot of bad things happen in war; on Both sides. As for Mr. Stalin, only one good thing can be said about him; he is dead. L. Grant. cc: KP (???) :-O ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Schlüter" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Hi, I am Bernd Schlueter (difficult to spell, especially if I write it in > German: "Schlüter"). And it is rather difficult to notice me among you, for you > seem to be thousends in my small swiss mailbox. I am riding here on such a > small flak-shell, which my father let produce in billions, when he worked as > an technical officer in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. > I can tell you, he was not rather pleased with the circumstances in the > government office, but the German pilots were ok. > He died inmidst of 16 year old boys, at the hottest place near > Arromanches/Normandy. He was angry with some of his higher officers and though he knew, > he would never come back, he went to be buried soon on a very nice English > pilots' churchyard there. > Sorry, that you did much in favour of Mr. Stalin, but that war was necessary > and one Third of Germany was freed by You of the dictator and the conditions > made by the Allieds after the first world war. > Some people from the United States saved me and my girlfriend later in > Nepal, when we had become victims of murderers and of the incredible behaviour of > German officers of the ambassy. > So, I think, we need a world police like you and your sons. The gunshots > from your fighters to my beloved baby carriage and my mother on the field are > forgiven! > And I know some German airforce veterans here... > Bernd > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 18:14:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:14:29 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Idle curiousity -- Message-ID: Maurice, Some never flew again. One is our favorite General. Others became Airline Pilots and flew as long as the FAA would let them. Some stayed in general aviation, Like our 303rd President and even builds or rebuilds real airplanes. Others like your treasurer still flys but most of it is in the back of a 737 the past 5 years. He can't hear women anymore without snuggling up to them and lots of our controllers now are women. Besides in the 737s they bring you peanuts if you fly Southwest. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 19:20:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Sam Tabeling) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:20:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Delete from talk list Message-ID: Please delete my e-mail from the talk list. Thank You Mary Lee Tabeling tabeling@mindspring.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 19:33:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:33:05 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany Message-ID: Bernd: In what town do you live, and can you name the names of the Luftwaffe pilots you know and what staffel they were with? Unfortuantely, the civilians bore a great deal of the budon during the war, with bombings and strafing. Let us thank God that time in history is behind us! Kevin >From: Bernd Schlüter >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:08:40 +0100 (MET) > >Hi, I am Bernd Schlueter (difficult to spell, especially if I write it in >German: "Schlüter"). And it is rather difficult to notice me among you, for >you >seem to be thousends in my small swiss mailbox. I am riding here on such a >small flak-shell, which my father let produce in billions, when he worked >as >an technical officer in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. >I can tell you, he was not rather pleased with the circumstances in the >government office, but the German pilots were ok. >He died inmidst of 16 year old boys, at the hottest place near >Arromanches/Normandy. He was angry with some of his higher officers and >though he knew, >he would never come back, he went to be buried soon on a very nice English >pilots' churchyard there. >Sorry, that you did much in favour of Mr. Stalin, but that war was >necessary >and one Third of Germany was freed by You of the dictator and the >conditions >made by the Allieds after the first world war. >Some people from the United States saved me and my girlfriend later in >Nepal, when we had become victims of murderers and of the incredible >behaviour of >German officers of the ambassy. >So, I think, we need a world police like you and your sons. The gunshots >from your fighters to my beloved baby carriage and my mother on the field >are >forgiven! >And I know some German airforce veterans here... >Bernd > >-- >Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 02:22:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:22:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Rest and Recuperation Message-ID: <001701c09c76$51fec920$a3904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09C4C.646A27A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How many missions were you required to fly before being eligible for = leave? On average how much time was allotted? Beside London, what were some of the desirable destinations, and how = difficult was it to get transportation to and from? Flight crew got extra pay, did it vary ? ( ie. Pilot vs Nav., Eng. vs. = WG ). The Brits thought the Americans were over paid. The truth = probably is that they were under paid. How much were you guys paid? (I = don't mean that to be a rude question). If you were stood down due to bad weather, were you at liberty to leave = your base? As ever, thank you for your comments, remembrances, and annecdotes. = Lloyd Grant. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09C4C.646A27A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How many missions were you required to = fly before=20 being eligible for leave?
On average how much time was = allotted?
Beside London, what were some of the = desirable=20 destinations, and how difficult was it to get transportation to and=20 from?
Flight crew got extra pay, did it vary = ? ( ie.=20 Pilot vs Nav., Eng. vs. WG ).  The Brits thought the Americans were = over=20 paid.  The truth probably is that they were under paid.  How = much were=20 you guys paid? (I don't mean that to be a rude question).
If you were stood down due to bad = weather, were you=20 at liberty to leave your base?
As ever, thank you for your comments, = remembrances,=20 and annecdotes.    Lloyd = Grant.
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C09C4C.646A27A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 21 22:45:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:45:32 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th BG Message-ID: Does anyone know of a web site for the 305th BG? I have a friend who is = looking for anything about her Dad, Clarence H. Davis. Was with the 305 = BG, 365th Squadron. Evidently he worked on bomb sites. Saw some = references on "our" site, looks like they provided the pathfinders for = deep penetrations into Germany. Also does anyone know whereabouts of John O. Burcham--358th, McCutcheon's = crew and if he has a new email address. I tried to email him using = address in 1999 Membership Directory but it came back undeliverable. Thanks, as always, Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 05:32:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:32:10 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th BG Message-ID: <73.b38c753.27c5fe5a@aol.com> Duke, You might try asking Pilot George E. McCutcheon 1427 Brink Rd. Gaylord MI 49735. 517-732-9066. Or get one of Ed Millers CD ROMs. I'll bet you can get a lead there if he is still with us. Copilot Pappy has gone west. Navigator Ben Starr in our directory might know. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 06:23:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:23:47 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th BG Message-ID: <3f.10feb2f4.27c60a73@aol.com> My uncle LT. Frederick B. (Barney) Farrell was in the 303rd for a short time, and then in the 305th. He flew the the high squadron lead on the disastrous Schweinfurt message led (mis?) BY MAJ. Norman. Did anyone run into him while in England, or later in 29s, 50s, or 47s? Thanks! Larry Farrell (son of Lawrence C. Farrell, Sr., CP, Smith Crew, 359th BS From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 14:33:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:33:39 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001101c09c2f$7fdf23e0$60904d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <10277.982852419@www37.gmx.net> Hello Kevin, hello Lloyd! You have luck, I in my pram was much more iengaged in watching a humble bee, which attacked me at that time . If I would have looked twice, you would have got big problems with me! But as I inquire my mother, she saw perhaps two pilots and there may have been a second tail. Thunder and lightning, may have been a lonely P 38 of the Royal Airforce? It is said, there would have been some furious pilots from Poland...But I do not know, if the British owned this type... Well, I am living in Duesseldorf, in former times the cradle of guns and flak (f.i. Rheinmetall). It must not have been easy to cross this town and you must have had a lot to do... But your big friends aimed at the objects very well. All the inner town was completely destroyed. Exactly the famous houses of the architect Behrends at the Rhine front were spared, which are the nicest houses still today. And you spared all the amunition factories, too. I do not understand this until today! First the socialists succeded in banning all war factories from Duesseldorf. Duesseldorf is near the Ruhrgebiet in Nordrhein Westfalia, the most populated region in Germany, many inhabitants of Polish and Italian origin. I am a physicist with a favour for sail planes and parachute gliders, but I am not active now. Our government makes too much trouble for hobby pilots. Most of the German war pilots I met where in very different departments of the airforce exept of the first two years of the war. Most of them have not become famous, for there were not many chances because of skilled enemies and the lack of fuel. But a friend of the family flew nearly all types. I am sorry, he has no internet. Still today, it is too expensive in Germany. Governments TV and some stations of two monopolists, that is nearly all. The medieval communication monopole is surviving in Germany far on. But if you have questions, I will ask him. Maybe I could persuade Mr. Hutter to join the net community? In Germany there are not many pilots left. In Cologne I knew some veterans of the LuftgeschwaderI, and in the Aero club here some were engaged, too. They do not have the numbers like you and there are only some private meetings. The enthusiasm for military flying was bigger in the part of Germany, which was conquered for the communists, I think. Shure, you had to do a much harder job than your German colleges. They had to spend much of the time with strange things like digging and waiting for fuel which had to be produced by hydration of carbon. You did not spare these factories like Rheinmetall in Duesseldorf! Here you hit especially the civil buildings. No, my father was a civil engineer in the central office of the airforce and had to control the quality of the flak equipment and -production in the middle of Germany. And, I may give away, he was not satisfied with the quality of ammunition, but in a different sense than you, I guess. I do not know much of war and I did not join the military service. My job is more electronics. Bernd Hello Kevin, hello > Wie gehts, Bernd, Was your father a flak battery officer, or a pilot? I > did not quite understand. Are you telling us that it was your mother > pushing a pram that the P-51 pilot fired on? (he was sent to prison for > that, I think). I don't know the whole story, but a lot of bad things > happen in war; on Both sides. As for Mr. Stalin, only one good thing can > be said about him; he is dead. L. Grant. > cc: KP (???) :-O ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bernd Schlüter" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > Hi, I am Bernd Schlueter (difficult to spell, especially if I write it > in > > German: "Schlüter"). And it is rather difficult to notice me among you, > for you > > seem to be thousends in my small swiss mailbox. I am riding here on such > a > > small flak-shell, which my father let produce in billions, when he > worked > as > > an technical officer in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. > > I can tell you, he was not rather pleased with the circumstances in the > > government office, but the German pilots were ok. > > He died inmidst of 16 year old boys, at the hottest place near > > Arromanches/Normandy. He was angry with some of his higher officers and > though he knew, > > he would never come back, he went to be buried soon on a very nice > English > > pilots' churchyard there. > > Sorry, that you did much in favour of Mr. Stalin, but that war was > necessary > > and one Third of Germany was freed by You of the dictator and the > conditions > > made by the Allieds after the first world war. > > Some people from the United States saved me and my girlfriend later in > > Nepal, when we had become victims of murderers and of the incredible > behaviour of > > German officers of the ambassy. > > So, I think, we need a world police like you and your sons. The gunshots > > from your fighters to my beloved baby carriage and my mother on the > field > are > > forgiven! > > And I know some German airforce veterans here... > > Bernd > > > > -- > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 18:01:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:01:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001101c09c2f$7fdf23e0$60904d0c@netzero> <10277.982852419@www37.gmx.net> Message-ID: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> Danke, Bernd, and welcome to our web ring. My father was in the 303rd and I became a member to learn more about the air war and the men who fought in it. As far of the accuracy of bombing is concerned, I will leave those comments to better qualified people than I. As regards the fighter(s) attacking you and your mother, this is an area that Kevin has more knowledge about than I. I would be interested in learning from your pilot friends which of the planes they flew were considered the safest and most reliable in combat. I am also curious about the techniques used to manufacture synthetic fuels. Politically, I am saddened that despotic forms of goverment are able to exist. Inevitably they wreck distruction and misery on the people of the world; and ultimately on their own people as they are always doomed to fail. It is very sad that catastrophe and carnage are the end result of their lust for Power. It is also very sad that the men and women who are called upon to fight in wars might have, in different circumstances, become the finest of friends. I am glad that our Leaders had the foresight to institute a program like the Marshall Plan in Europe after the war. A strong ally is ever better than a desperate enemy. When I did my military service I was stationed in Hiedelberg. It is a beautiful city and was never bombed during the war. Auf Wiedersein. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Schlüter" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Hello Kevin, hello Lloyd! > You have luck, I in my pram was much more iengaged in watching a humble bee, > which attacked me at that time . If I would have looked twice, you would > have got big problems with me! But as I inquire my mother, she saw perhaps two > pilots and there may have been a second tail. Thunder and lightning, may have > been a lonely P 38 of the Royal Airforce? It is said, there would have been > some furious pilots from Poland...But I do not know, if the British owned this > type... > Well, I am living in Duesseldorf, in former times the cradle of guns and > flak (f.i. Rheinmetall). It must not have been easy to cross this town and you > must have had a lot to do... > But your big friends aimed at the objects very well. All the inner town was > completely destroyed. Exactly the famous houses of the architect Behrends at > the Rhine front were spared, which are the nicest houses still today. And you > spared all the amunition factories, too. I do not understand this until > today! > First the socialists succeded in banning all war factories from Duesseldorf. > > Duesseldorf is near the Ruhrgebiet in Nordrhein Westfalia, the most > populated region in Germany, many inhabitants of Polish and Italian origin. > > I am a physicist with a favour for sail planes and parachute gliders, but I > am not active now. Our government makes too much trouble for hobby pilots. > Most of the German war pilots I met where in very different departments of > the airforce exept of the first two years of the war. Most of them have not > become famous, for there were not many chances because of skilled enemies and > the lack of fuel. But a friend of the family flew nearly all types. > I am sorry, he has no internet. Still today, it is too expensive in Germany. > Governments TV and some stations of two monopolists, that is nearly all. The > medieval communication monopole is surviving in Germany far on. But if you > have questions, I will ask him. Maybe I could persuade Mr. Hutter to join the > net community? In Germany there are not many pilots left. In Cologne I knew > some veterans of the LuftgeschwaderI, and in the Aero club here some were > engaged, too. They do not have the numbers like you and there are only some > private meetings. The enthusiasm for military flying was bigger in the part of > Germany, which was conquered for the communists, I think. > > Shure, you had to do a much harder job than your German colleges. They had > to spend much of the time with strange things like digging and waiting for > fuel which had to be produced by hydration of carbon. You did not spare these > factories like Rheinmetall in Duesseldorf! Here you hit especially the civil > buildings. > No, my father was a civil engineer in the central office of the airforce and > had to control the quality of the flak equipment and -production in the > middle of Germany. And, I may give away, he was not satisfied with the quality of > ammunition, but in a different sense than you, I guess. > > I do not know much of war and I did not join the military service. My job is > more electronics. > Bernd > > > > > > > > Hello Kevin, hello > Wie gehts, Bernd, Was your father a flak battery > officer, or a pilot? I > > did not quite understand. Are you telling us that it was your mother > > pushing a pram that the P-51 pilot fired on? (he was sent to prison for > > that, I think). I don't know the whole story, but a lot of bad things > > happen in war; on Both sides. As for Mr. Stalin, only one good thing can > > be said about him; he is dead. L. Grant. > > cc: KP (???) :-O ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bernd Schlüter" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Hi, I am Bernd Schlueter (difficult to spell, especially if I write it > > in > > > German: "Schlüter"). And it is rather difficult to notice me among you, > > for you > > > seem to be thousends in my small swiss mailbox. I am riding here on such > > a > > > small flak-shell, which my father let produce in billions, when he > > worked > > as > > > an technical officer in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. > > > I can tell you, he was not rather pleased with the circumstances in the > > > government office, but the German pilots were ok. > > > He died inmidst of 16 year old boys, at the hottest place near > > > Arromanches/Normandy. He was angry with some of his higher officers and > > though he knew, > > > he would never come back, he went to be buried soon on a very nice > > English > > > pilots' churchyard there. > > > Sorry, that you did much in favour of Mr. Stalin, but that war was > > necessary > > > and one Third of Germany was freed by You of the dictator and the > > conditions > > > made by the Allieds after the first world war. > > > Some people from the United States saved me and my girlfriend later in > > > Nepal, when we had become victims of murderers and of the incredible > > behaviour of > > > German officers of the ambassy. > > > So, I think, we need a world police like you and your sons. The gunshots > > > from your fighters to my beloved baby carriage and my mother on the > > field > > are > > > forgiven! > > > And I know some German airforce veterans here... > > > Bernd > > > > > > -- > > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 18:58:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:58:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th BG References: <3f.10feb2f4.27c60a73@aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c09d01$6d2d7e40$d78f4d0c@netzero> Dear Larry, Your Uncles career seems to have some parallels to my fathers'. My dad flew with the 427th in the 303rd, later with various Sq.s in the B-29, (other and various aircraft) and finally in the B-47. This site is the best you will find for information on the B-17. Everyone goes out of their way to be helpful. I am glad to see you have joined. I am a little short on information about the B-29 phase, but I have a very good source on the B-47 if you want to follow up on it here is the URL: http://nerd.dartmouth.edu/-man Mark Natola is the webmaster there and a couple of years ago he sent me a members directory which I will be glad to put at your disposal. Welcome, and good luck. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 305th BG > My uncle LT. Frederick B. (Barney) Farrell was in the 303rd for a short time, > and then in the 305th. He flew the the high squadron lead on the disastrous > Schweinfurt message led (mis?) BY MAJ. Norman. > > Did anyone run into him while in England, or later in 29s, 50s, or 47s? > > Thanks! > > Larry Farrell > (son of Lawrence C. Farrell, Sr., CP, Smith Crew, 359th BS > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 20:28:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:28:28 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> --part1_3a.113d03a8.27c821ec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Talking about best of friends. My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans. Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two wives have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns etc. A Smith --part1_3a.113d03a8.27c821ec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Talking about best of friends.

My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.

Needless to say we think they are both a great.  Naturally the two wives

have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns
etc.

A Smith --part1_3a.113d03a8.27c821ec_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 20:29:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:29:34 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 Message-ID: <001601c09dd7$58ac7300$d49a46c6@fory> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C09DA5.0AFEA880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Conversation with Bernd brought to mind an incident(?) wherein a German, = colonel equivalent, visited the Aviation Cadet Program at Lackland circa 1954. We had just = accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense Assistance Program. I cannot remember the Colonels name but he was in command of a 262 sqdn = (jets). He crashed at some time and was horribly disfigured from burns. Anyway he told us that Hitler demanded they fly front line bombing = rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the war may have lasted a = bit longer. I believe he even published a book.=20 I recall a mission when our top tuuret man called out a propless plane = flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and we then got heavy flak = bursts. Does anyone know his name or remember when a ME 262 got our air speed = and alt.? Buzz Barton ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C09DA5.0AFEA880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Conversation with Bernd brought to = mind an=20 incident(?) wherein a German, colonel equivalent,
visited the Aviation Cadet Program at = Lackland=20 circa 1954. We had just accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense=20 Assistance Program.
I cannot remember the Colonels name = but he was=20 in command of a 262 sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was = horribly=20 disfigured from burns.
Anyway he told us that Hitler demanded = they fly=20 front line bombing rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the war = may have=20 lasted a bit longer.
I believe he even published a book.=20
I recall a mission when our top tuuret = man=20 called out a propless plane flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and = we then=20 got heavy flak bursts.
Does anyone know his name or = remember  when=20 a ME 262 got our air speed and alt.?
Buzz Barton
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C09DA5.0AFEA880-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 21:22:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:22:07 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 References: <001601c09dd7$58ac7300$d49a46c6@fory> Message-ID: <3A96D47F.CDEF2F8A@newsfactory.net> --------------CF02588446812C779A97E7A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fory: His name probably was Johannes Steinhoff, later General of the Federal German AF; crashed in his Me 262 in ´45, burned his face etc. Flew with JV 44 of General Galland. Kind regards from Germany, Uwe Fory Barton schrieb: > Conversation with Bernd brought to mind an incident(?) wherein a > German, colonel equivalent,visited the Aviation Cadet Program at > Lackland circa 1954. We had just accepted German cadets into the > Mutual Defense Assistance Program.I cannot remember the Colonels name > but he was in command of a 262 sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time > and was horribly disfigured from burns.Anyway he told us that Hitler > demanded they fly front line bombing rather than attacking our planes. > Otherwise the war may have lasted a bit longer.I believe he even > published a book.I recall a mission when our top tuuret man called out > a propless plane flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and we then > got heavy flak bursts.Does anyone know his name or remember when a ME > 262 got our air speed and alt.?Buzz Barton --------------CF02588446812C779A97E7A8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fory:
His name probably was Johannes Steinhoff, later General of the Federal German AF; crashed in his Me 262 in ´45, burned his face etc. Flew with JV 44 of General Galland.
Kind regards from Germany,

Uwe

Fory Barton schrieb:

Conversation with Bernd brought to mind an incident(?) wherein a German, colonel equivalent,visited the Aviation Cadet Program at Lackland circa 1954. We had just accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense Assistance Program.I cannot remember the Colonels name but he was in command of a 262 sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was horribly disfigured from burns.Anyway he told us that Hitler demanded they fly front line bombing rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the war may have lasted a bit longer.I believe he even published a book.I recall a mission when our top tuuret man called out a propless plane flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and we then got heavy flak bursts.Does anyone know his name or remember  when a ME 262 got our air speed and alt.?Buzz Barton
--------------CF02588446812C779A97E7A8-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 21:33:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:33:39 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> --------------4E780553C3322B308F4EFB96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the beginning of our own United States. In WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the US with his American bride. My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA. In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all the fellows who flew against us. They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours. That their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a personal basis. Today they are one our greatest Allies. I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same. And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party! I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we should have been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, is true. But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit. Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on. Cheers, AMS .... WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot) AMS303@aol.com wrote: > Talking about best of friends. > > My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans. > > Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two > wives > > have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and > the lawns > etc. > > A Smith --------------4E780553C3322B308F4EFB96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the beginning of our own United States.  In WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the  US with his American bride.  My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all the fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same.  And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we should have been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, is true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.

Cheers, AMS  ....

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 

AMS303@aol.com wrote:

Talking about best of friends.

My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.

Needless to say we think they are both a great.  Naturally the two wives

have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns
etc.

A Smith

--------------4E780553C3322B308F4EFB96-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 21:39:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:39:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Welcome Bill Heller In-Reply-To: <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3A96762D.27386.CA4C11@localhost> Bill, I was delighted to see your name as a new list subscriber. Hope you enjoy this forum. Those of us who weren't there are learning tons from those who were. Welcome! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 21:48:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:48:17 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Welcome Bill Heller Message-ID: <91.74b5a35.27c834a1@aol.com> yup! good bill ,nice to greet you. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 21:48:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:48:08 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3A96DA97.DE70FE0D@newsfactory.net> --------------104DD7C449B2F588675CEF26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story and the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true. My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, aren´t we?! Best wishes from Germany, Uwe Wiedemann William Heller schrieb: > In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the > beginning of our own United States. In WW#2, I had two cousins in the > Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in > the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a > honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He > had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in > his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the > Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his > relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the > US with his American bride. My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 > and FW190 were KIA. > > In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German > Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends > with all the fellows who flew against us. They were fine lads doing > their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours. That > their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be > held against them on a personal basis. Today they are one our > greatest Allies. > > I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the > entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same. And > this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued > political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party! > > I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we should have > been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for > them, is true. But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for > allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit. > > Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And let us > welcome Germany as our Allies from now on. > > Cheers, AMS .... > > WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot) > > > AMS303@aol.com wrote: > >> Talking about best of friends. >> >> My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans. >> >> Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two >> wives >> >> have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and >> the lawns >> etc. >> >> A Smith > --------------104DD7C449B2F588675CEF26 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story and the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true.
My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, aren´t we?!
Best wishes from Germany,

Uwe Wiedemann
 
 

William Heller schrieb:

In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the beginning of our own United States.  In WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the  US with his American bride.  My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all the fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same.  And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we should have been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, is true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.

Cheers, AMS  ....

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 

AMS303@aol.com wrote:

Talking about best of friends.

My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.

Needless to say we think they are both a great.  Naturally the two wives

have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns
etc.

A Smith

--------------104DD7C449B2F588675CEF26-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 22:50:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:50:56 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002501c09deb$17137380$d5b34d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C09DC1.2CAA9680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome, Bill Heller. Roger your comments. It is far better to have a = strong ally, than a desperate foe. We must also never forget the = mistakes of the past, but should temper our remembrance with hope for = the future. Perhaps we should also remember that there were many loyal = German patriots that opposed the Nazi regime, quite a few of whom paid = for their opposition with their lives. Thumbs up. LG ---- Original Message -----=20 From: William Heller=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the = beginning of our own United States. In WW#2, I had two cousins in the = Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the = Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, = circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a = Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" = to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His = American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end = of the war he was immediately sent home to the US with his American = bride. My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.=20 In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German = Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends = with all the fellows who flew against us. They were fine lads doing = their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours. That their = leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held = against them on a personal basis. Today they are one our greatest = Allies.=20 I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the = entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same. And = this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political = action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!=20 I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we should have = been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, = is true. But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing = us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.=20 Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And let us = welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.=20 Cheers, AMS ....=20 WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)=20 =20 AMS303@aol.com wrote:=20 Talking about best of friends.=20 My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.=20 Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two = wives=20 have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and = the lawns=20 etc.=20 A Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C09DC1.2CAA9680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome, Bill Heller.  Roger your=20 comments.  It is far better to have a strong ally, than a desperate = foe.  We must also never forget the mistakes of the past, but = should temper=20 our remembrance with hope for the future.  Perhaps we should also = remember=20 that there were many loyal German patriots that opposed the Nazi regime, = quite a=20 few of whom paid for their opposition with their lives.  Thumbs = up. =20 LG
---- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Heller
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 4:33=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs

In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German = heritage=20 in the beginning of our own United States.  In WW#2, I had two = cousins in=20 the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one = in the=20 Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, = circa=20 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a = Heidleberg=20 graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become = an=20 American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American = wife sat=20 out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was = immediately sent home to the  US with his American bride.  = My two=20 cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.=20

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German = Lufthansa=20 for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all = the=20 fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their = duty as we,=20 in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their leader put = party=20 above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a = personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.=20

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden = the=20 entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same.  = And this=20 same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political = action in=20 this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!=20

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we = should have=20 been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for = them, is=20 true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for = allowing us to=20 feel "safe" after his famous visit.=20

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And let = us=20 welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.=20

Cheers, AMS  ....=20

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 =20

AMS303@aol.com wrote:=20

Talking=20 about best of friends.=20

My wife's father and = my best=20 friend's wife were both Germans.=20

Needless to say we = think they=20 are both a great.  Naturally the two wives=20

have a lot in common = and both=20 demand perfection in their houses and the lawns =
etc.=20

A=20 Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C09DC1.2CAA9680-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 23:06:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (tony flashman) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:06:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all Message-ID: <002e01c09ded$35d90940$9dab403e@kctbkuqk> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09DED.34F734C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you guys. I was first introduced to = the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced landed in the sea at Pegwell = Bay England, not far from where I live. The plane had laid in thick = sand and just a few feet of water since the war. We were able to = recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller items. One of = the smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock was the = navigators flight computer. The navigator was George Arvanites and his = flight computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year = during the 303rd reunion in the UK. Best wishes to all Tony ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09DED.34F734C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
 
I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you = guys.  I=20 was first introduced to the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced landed = in the=20 sea at Pegwell Bay England, not far from where I live.  The plane = had laid=20 in thick sand and just a few feet of water since the war.  We were = able to=20 recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller items.  One = of the=20 smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock was the = navigators=20 flight computer.  The navigator was George Arvanites and his flight = computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year during the = 303rd=20 reunion in the UK.
 
Best wishes to all
 
Tony
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09DED.34F734C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Feb 23 23:52:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:52:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <002e01c09ded$35d90940$9dab403e@kctbkuqk> Message-ID: <001501c09df3$a83c1ee0$d5b34d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09DC9.BDFDFB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jolly glad to have you with us Tony. LG (1/2 Brit., the other 1/2 baked = :--)) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tony flashman=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 6:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all Hi I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you guys. I was first introduced to = the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced landed in the sea at Pegwell = Bay England, not far from where I live. The plane had laid in thick = sand and just a few feet of water since the war. We were able to = recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller items. One of = the smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock was the = navigators flight computer. The navigator was George Arvanites and his = flight computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year = during the 303rd reunion in the UK. Best wishes to all Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09DC9.BDFDFB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jolly glad to have you with us = Tony.  LG (1/2=20 Brit., the other 1/2 baked :--))
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tony flashman =
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 6:06=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello = all

Hi
 
I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you = guys. =20 I was first introduced to the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced = landed in=20 the sea at Pegwell Bay England, not far from where I live.  The = plane had=20 laid in thick sand and just a few feet of water since the war.  = We were=20 able to recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller = items. =20 One of the smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock = was the=20 navigators flight computer.  The navigator was George Arvanites = and his=20 flight computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year = during the=20 303rd reunion in the UK.
 
Best wishes to all
 
Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09DC9.BDFDFB60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 04:33:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:33:31 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <26389.982989211@www11.gmx.net> Sorry, there was an internet breakdown in the net of the still existing monopole of the German Telekom just like in wartime. Lloyd, I have know the old hydration factories near Cologne and the famous "Leuna", which was sold by our Chancelour Helmut Kohl by a foolish transaction, which led to his resignation. You found these factories all over all germany, by cathalysis of carbon with water you get "reformed" hydrogenium, which will be syntesized with the carbon fragments to bigger hydrocarbon chains, resulting in a poor fuel of 70 ROZ or so. The compression ratio of the engines was very low because of that, 7:1 or so, and the German planes had to be most carefully optimized to get near to the velocity of your mashines. There had been a birthday present of the superior of my father, Herrmann Goering, to Mr. Hitler, which cost fuel supplies from Russia. This unnecessary present was Stalingrad, later Wolgograd. The Reichsluftfahrtminister, I know the nicknames of him too, made many mistakes, though he was a very good air fighter in world war one and a famous and good movieactor. He liked birthday parties too much and shortened the war by his alcoholic escapades a lot. One fault was the production of planes by too many of his friends, another was to obbey the silly order of Hitler, flying into passion, to reconstruct the most expensive fighters, included, the Me262 into bombers(!). "Herrmann" did, though all thought , he was crazy. It is true, what Fory Barton reports. And Mr. Steinhoff has confirmed just the same as my friend, who could stop his fighter career at that time and had only transportion orders further on and survived like you. I should bring him a modem for his PC, he would have a lot to tell. My father suffered a lot by bad decisions of the destructive despots, but though the inventors of that war were the evils, they shortened it quite a lot. The higher German officers would have made the job better, if the nazi leaders would not have had the possibility to interfeare. So, luck in bad luck, the war ended sooner. Bad luck for the German people, the Allied had decided in Yalta to bring two thirds of Germany under the control of the communists. And do not forget the Polands, the Baltics, Romanians, Bulgarians...half of Europeans had to become communists by allied decisions. There is still the conflict in Yugoslavia, which started the first world war in Germany. Good luck, today I am rather satisfied with the polticians here and in the States, but we should watch them! Then it is easier to make the job well, even bombing. Bernd -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 08:47:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:47:03 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> <3A96DA97.DE70FE0D@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <3A977507.338D4ADB@attglobal.net> --------------201FB5341B6033F3A990C0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Uwe ... Glad to make your aquaintance. Cheers! WCH Uwe Wiedemann wrote: > Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story and the > one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true. > My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during > BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a > Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we > are, aren´t we?! > Best wishes from Germany, > > Uwe Wiedemann > > > > William Heller schrieb: > >> In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in >> the beginning of our own United States. In WW#2, I had two cousins >> in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The >> one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for >> a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. >> He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national >> putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an >> Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in >> Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately >> sent home to the US with his American bride. My two cousins in the >> Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA. >> >> In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German >> Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close >> friends with all the fellows who flew against us. They were fine >> lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing >> ours. That their leader put party above country and led them astray >> should not be held against them on a personal basis. Today they are >> one our greatest Allies. >> >> I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden >> the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same. >> And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued >> political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the >> party! >> >> I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we should have >> been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for >> them, is true. But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for >> allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit. >> >> Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And let us >> welcome Germany as our Allies from now on. >> >> Cheers, AMS .... >> >> WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot) >> >> >> AMS303@aol.com wrote: >> >> > Talking about best of friends. >> > >> > My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans. >> > >> > Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two >> > wives >> > >> > have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and >> > the lawns >> > etc. >> > >> > A Smith >> --------------201FB5341B6033F3A990C0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uwe ...

Glad to make your aquaintance.

Cheers!

WCH

Uwe Wiedemann wrote:

Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story and the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true.
My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, aren´t we?!
Best wishes from Germany,

Uwe Wiedemann
 
 

William Heller schrieb:

In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the beginning of our own United States.  In WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the  US with his American bride.  My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all the fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same.  And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we should have been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, is true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.

Cheers, AMS  ....

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 

AMS303@aol.com wrote:

Talking about best of friends.

My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.

Needless to say we think they are both a great.  Naturally the two wives

have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns
etc.

A Smith

--------------201FB5341B6033F3A990C0C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 16:34:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:34:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> <26389.982989211@www11.gmx.net> Message-ID: <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> Bernd, Thanks for the lead and information on the engineering of synthetic fuels. I will do some further research in order to try to understand the process better. There is sad irony in Wars. Politicians start them and the people they supposedly are there to serve are ultimately compelled to fight them. I think that my Country had to relearn this bitter lesson in Viet Nam. War is best conducted by men trained in the prosecution of war. If everyone was compelled on a regular basis to view the mangled bodies and gruesome destruction that are the results of war, and the bitter sorrow left in its' wake, perhaps people would grow finally to realize the utter futility of armed conflict. In our times, the world is held hostage by the unimaginable horror of atomic weapons, thus it is even more imperative to be vigilant and aware. When our politians fail Peace fails. This is a beautiful planet that God has given us the stewardship of. I hope we will continue to evolve to accept this trust. I believe that this website is in, great part, dedicated to the effort of reminding us all. I am personally glad to see you and Uwe here to share your thoughts and opinions. I too am glad to be a part of it. Aufwiedersein. LG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Schlüter" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Sorry, there was an internet breakdown in the net of the still existing > monopole of the German Telekom just like in wartime. > Lloyd, I have know the old hydration factories near Cologne and the famous > "Leuna", which was sold by our Chancelour Helmut Kohl by a foolish > transaction, which led to his resignation. > You found these factories all over all germany, by cathalysis of carbon with > water you get "reformed" hydrogenium, which will be syntesized with the > carbon fragments to bigger hydrocarbon chains, resulting in a poor fuel of 70 ROZ > or so. The compression ratio of the engines was very low because of that, > 7:1 or so, and the German planes had to be most carefully optimized to get near > to the velocity of your mashines. > There had been a birthday present of the superior of my father, Herrmann > Goering, to Mr. Hitler, which cost fuel supplies from Russia. This unnecessary > present was Stalingrad, later Wolgograd. > The Reichsluftfahrtminister, I know the nicknames of him too, made many > mistakes, though he was a very good air fighter in world war one and a famous and > good movieactor. > He liked birthday parties too much and shortened the war by his alcoholic > escapades a lot. One fault was the production of planes by too many of his > friends, another was to obbey the silly order of Hitler, flying into passion, to > reconstruct the most expensive fighters, included, the Me262 into > bombers(!). "Herrmann" did, though all thought , he was crazy. It is true, what Fory > Barton reports. And Mr. Steinhoff has confirmed just the same as my friend, who > could stop his fighter career at that time and had only transportion orders > further on and survived like you. > I should bring him a modem for his PC, he would have a lot to tell. > > My father suffered a lot by bad decisions of the destructive despots, but > though the inventors of that war were the evils, they shortened it quite a lot. > The higher German officers would have made the job better, if the nazi > leaders would not have had the possibility to interfeare. > > So, luck in bad luck, the war ended sooner. > Bad luck for the German people, the Allied had decided in Yalta to bring two > thirds of Germany under the control of the communists. And do not forget the > Polands, the Baltics, Romanians, Bulgarians...half of Europeans had to > become communists by allied decisions. There is still the conflict in Yugoslavia, > which started the first world war in Germany. > Good luck, today I am rather satisfied with the polticians here and in the > States, but we should watch them! Then it is easier to make the job well, even > bombing. > Bernd > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 18:04:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:04:36 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Staff Sergeant Benjamin F. Spring Message-ID: <001101c09e8c$4130c860$24f833cf@richards> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C09E49.31AE94A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jay and Robin Primavera=20 To: spider@ivic.net=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:32 PM Subject: Staff Sergeant Benjamin F. Spring Dear Mr. Smith: I was just made aware of your fabulous and most remarkable web-site in = the last hour and a half. You folks have really created a temendous and = valuable tool! I don't know if you are who I should write to. If not would you please = direct me to the proper person. My late father, S/Sgt Benjamin F. Spring was assigned to the 360th and = is listed as missing on your search page. My father passed away from = lung cancer in September of 1983. =20 On the web-site at 303rdbga.com/360vanwie.html on the 4th line it states = that my father was a repatrioted POW who died as a result of his = injuries. This is in error. Additionally when scrolling to the bottom = of the page the airman in the lover right corner identified as Eugene L. = Morton is in actuality my father Benjamin F. Spring. I am tremendously excited at having found your web site and I hope to = discover more of our history and in celebration of those lives so = generously given that future generations like mine would know freedom. = For that I thank you! With Gratitude Jay Primavera (Italian for Spring, my father changed it back to the = original in the mid-70's) 21 Country Club Drive Sullivan, IL 61951 217.728.8790 jtprlp@one-eleven.net ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C09E49.31AE94A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jay = and Robin=20 Primavera
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:32 PM
Subject: Staff Sergeant Benjamin F. Spring

Dear Mr. Smith:
 
I was just made aware of your fabulous = and most=20 remarkable web-site in the last hour and a half.  You folks have = really=20 created a temendous and valuable tool!
 
I don't know if you are who I should = write=20 to.  If not would you please direct me to the proper = person.
 
My late father, S/Sgt Benjamin F. = Spring was=20 assigned to the 360th and is listed as missing on your search = page.  My=20 father passed away from lung cancer in September of 1983.  =
 
On the web-site at = 303rdbga.com/360vanwie.html on=20 the 4th line it states that my father was a repatrioted POW who died as = a result=20 of his injuries.  This is in error.  Additionally when = scrolling to=20 the bottom of the page the airman in the lover right corner identified = as Eugene=20 L. Morton is in actuality my father Benjamin F. Spring.
 
I am tremendously excited at having = found your web=20 site and I hope to discover more of our history and in celebration of = those=20 lives so generously given that future generations like mine would know=20 freedom.  For that I thank you!
 
With Gratitude
 
 
Jay Primavera (Italian for Spring, my = father=20 changed it back to the original in the mid-70's)
21 Country Club Drive
Sullivan, IL 61951
217.728.8790
jtprlp@one-eleven.net
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C09E49.31AE94A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 14:11:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:11:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 References: <001601c09dd7$58ac7300$d49a46c6@fory> Message-ID: <011d01c09cda$2fe4c7e0$3e8e9840@dlinks.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C09CB7.C5104560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This German pilot was Macky Steinhoff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fory Barton=20 To: 303rd - BGA=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:29 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 Conversation with Bernd brought to mind an incident(?) wherein a = German, colonel equivalent, visited the Aviation Cadet Program at Lackland circa 1954. We had just = accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense Assistance Program. I cannot remember the Colonels name but he was in command of a 262 = sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was horribly disfigured from = burns. Anyway he told us that Hitler demanded they fly front line bombing = rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the war may have lasted a = bit longer. I believe he even published a book.=20 I recall a mission when our top tuuret man called out a propless plane = flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and we then got heavy flak = bursts. Does anyone know his name or remember when a ME 262 got our air speed = and alt.? Buzz Barton ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C09CB7.C5104560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This German pilot was Macky Steinhoff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fory = Barton=20
To: 303rd -=20 BGA
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 4:29=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] German=20 Pilot--ME-262

Conversation with Bernd brought to = mind an=20 incident(?) wherein a German, colonel equivalent,
visited the Aviation Cadet Program = at Lackland=20 circa 1954. We had just accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense = Assistance Program.
I cannot remember the Colonels name = but he was=20 in command of a 262 sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was = horribly=20 disfigured from burns.
Anyway he told us that Hitler = demanded they=20 fly front line bombing rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the = war may=20 have lasted a bit longer.
I believe he even published a book.=20
I recall a mission when our top = tuuret man=20 called out a propless plane flying alongside us. I disappeared fast = and we=20 then got heavy flak bursts.
Does anyone know his name or = remember =20 when a ME 262 got our air speed and alt.?
Buzz=20 Barton
------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C09CB7.C5104560-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Feb 22 14:26:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:26:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> <3A96DA97.DE70FE0D@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <012901c09cdb$6a1c8a00$3e8e9840@dlinks.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0126_01C09CB9.E2631140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do research on the air war over Europe can you tell me your cousins names gerschwader unit,if any victories dates if were shot down etc,etc. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Uwe Wiedemann=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs Thank you for your words, William. I=B4ve heard of your story and the = one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true.=20 My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during = BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a = Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, = aren=B4t we?!=20 Best wishes from Germany,=20 Uwe Wiedemann=20 =20 =20 William Heller schrieb:=20 In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in = the beginning of our own United States. In WW#2, I had two cousins in = the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in = the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a = honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had = been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his = "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the = Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his = relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the US = with his American bride. My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and = FW190 were KIA.=20 In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German = Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends = with all the fellows who flew against us. They were fine lads doing = their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours. That their = leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held = against them on a personal basis. Today they are one our greatest = Allies.=20 I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden = the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same. And = this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political = action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!=20 I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we should have = been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, = is true. But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing = us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.=20 Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And let us = welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.=20 Cheers, AMS ....=20 WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)=20 =20 AMS303@aol.com wrote:=20 Talking about best of friends.=20 My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.=20 Needless to say we think they are both a great. Naturally the two = wives=20 have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses = and the lawns=20 etc.=20 A Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0126_01C09CB9.E2631140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do research on the air war over = Europe
can you tell me your cousins names gerschwader = unit,if any=20 victories
dates if were shot down etc,etc.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Uwe Wiedemann
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 5:48=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: = 303rd-Talk=20 digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs

Thank you for your words, William. I=B4ve heard of your = story and=20 the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but = true.=20
My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 = during BoB=20 and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a = Florida=20 resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, = aren=B4t we?!=20
Best wishes from Germany,=20

Uwe Wiedemann
 
 =20

William Heller schrieb:=20

In spite of the Holocaust we must remember = the=20 German heritage in the beginning of our own United States.  In = WW#2, I=20 had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in = the=20 Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride = to=20 Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in = the=20 military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German = national=20 putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an = Officer in=20 the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his=20 relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to = the =20 US with his American bride.  My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, = Me109 and=20 FW190 were KIA.=20

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German = Lufthansa=20 for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with = all the=20 fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their = duty as=20 we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their = leader put=20 party above country and led them astray should not be held against = them on a=20 personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.=20

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden = the=20 entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for = same.  And=20 this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued = political=20 action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!=20

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we = should have=20 been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for = them, is=20 true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for = allowing us=20 to feel "safe" after his famous visit.=20

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And = let us=20 welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.=20

Cheers, AMS  ....=20

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 =20

AMS303@aol.com wrote:=20

Talking=20 about best of friends.=20

My wife's father = and my best=20 friend's wife were both Germans.=20

Needless to say we = think they=20 are both a great.  Naturally the two wives=20

have a lot in = common and both=20 demand perfection in their houses and the lawns =
etc.=20

A=20 = Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0126_01C09CB9.E2631140-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 21:23:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:23:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> <26389.982989211@www11.gmx.net> <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A982639.9CD0692C@newsfactory.net> Lloyd, there´s nothing to add to your words. That´s it. Hope, Bernd and I can give some hints or other points of view to you all from time to time. Anyway, this is a very interesting board thanks to you, Gentlemen. Best wishes from Bavaria/Southern Germany, Uwe Wiedemann Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Bernd, Thanks for the lead and information on the engineering of synthetic > fuels. I will do some further research in order to try to understand the > process better. > There is sad irony in Wars. Politicians start them and the people they > supposedly are there to serve are ultimately compelled to fight them. I > think that my Country had to relearn this bitter lesson in Viet Nam. War is > best conducted by men trained in the prosecution of war. If everyone was > compelled on a regular basis to view the mangled bodies and gruesome > destruction that are the results of war, and the bitter sorrow left in its' > wake, perhaps people would grow finally to realize the utter futility of > armed conflict. In our times, the world is held hostage by the unimaginable > horror of atomic weapons, thus it is even more imperative to be vigilant > and aware. When our politians fail Peace fails. This is a beautiful planet > that God has given us the stewardship of. I hope we will continue to evolve > to accept this trust. > I believe that this website is in, great part, dedicated to the effort of > reminding us all. I am personally glad to see you and Uwe here to share > your thoughts and opinions. I too am glad to be a part of it. > Aufwiedersein. LG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bernd Schlüter" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Sorry, there was an internet breakdown in the net of the still existing > > monopole of the German Telekom just like in wartime. > > Lloyd, I have know the old hydration factories near Cologne and the famous > > "Leuna", which was sold by our Chancelour Helmut Kohl by a foolish > > transaction, which led to his resignation. > > You found these factories all over all germany, by cathalysis of carbon > with > > water you get "reformed" hydrogenium, which will be syntesized with the > > carbon fragments to bigger hydrocarbon chains, resulting in a poor fuel of > 70 ROZ > > or so. The compression ratio of the engines was very low because of that, > > 7:1 or so, and the German planes had to be most carefully optimized to get > near > > to the velocity of your mashines. > > There had been a birthday present of the superior of my father, Herrmann > > Goering, to Mr. Hitler, which cost fuel supplies from Russia. This > unnecessary > > present was Stalingrad, later Wolgograd. > > The Reichsluftfahrtminister, I know the nicknames of him too, made many > > mistakes, though he was a very good air fighter in world war one and a > famous and > > good movieactor. > > He liked birthday parties too much and shortened the war by his alcoholic > > escapades a lot. One fault was the production of planes by too many of his > > friends, another was to obbey the silly order of Hitler, flying into > passion, to > > reconstruct the most expensive fighters, included, the Me262 into > > bombers(!). "Herrmann" did, though all thought , he was crazy. It is true, > what Fory > > Barton reports. And Mr. Steinhoff has confirmed just the same as my > friend, who > > could stop his fighter career at that time and had only transportion > orders > > further on and survived like you. > > I should bring him a modem for his PC, he would have a lot to tell. > > > > My father suffered a lot by bad decisions of the destructive despots, but > > though the inventors of that war were the evils, they shortened it quite a > lot. > > The higher German officers would have made the job better, if the nazi > > leaders would not have had the possibility to interfeare. > > > > So, luck in bad luck, the war ended sooner. > > Bad luck for the German people, the Allied had decided in Yalta to bring > two > > thirds of Germany under the control of the communists. And do not forget > the > > Polands, the Baltics, Romanians, Bulgarians...half of Europeans had to > > become communists by allied decisions. There is still the conflict in > Yugoslavia, > > which started the first world war in Germany. > > Good luck, today I am rather satisfied with the polticians here and in the > > States, but we should watch them! Then it is easier to make the job well, > even > > bombing. > > Bernd > > > > -- > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 22:24:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:24:12 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 References: <001601c09dd7$58ac7300$d49a46c6@fory> Message-ID: <00be01c09eb1$976ee0c0$5a0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C09EB0.83B53EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The gentleman you refer to was probably Johannes Steinhoff, badly = disfigured when his Me262 crashed on takeoff. He rejoined the West = German Air Force in 1952 and rose to the rank of General and in the = 1970s was Chairman of the Military Committee of NATO. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fory Barton=20 To: 303rd - BGA=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] German Pilot--ME-262 Conversation with Bernd brought to mind an incident(?) wherein a = German, colonel equivalent, visited the Aviation Cadet Program at Lackland circa 1954. We had just = accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense Assistance Program. I cannot remember the Colonels name but he was in command of a 262 = sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was horribly disfigured from = burns. Anyway he told us that Hitler demanded they fly front line bombing = rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the war may have lasted a = bit longer. I believe he even published a book.=20 I recall a mission when our top tuuret man called out a propless plane = flying alongside us. I disappeared fast and we then got heavy flak = bursts. Does anyone know his name or remember when a ME 262 got our air speed = and alt.? Buzz Barton ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C09EB0.83B53EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The gentleman you refer to was probably Johannes = Steinhoff, badly disfigured when his Me262 crashed on takeoff. He = rejoined the=20 West German Air Force in 1952 and rose to the rank of General and in the = 1970s=20 was Chairman of the Military Committee of NATO.
 
Brian McGuire
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fory = Barton=20
To: 303rd -=20 BGA
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 8:29=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] German=20 Pilot--ME-262

Conversation with Bernd brought to = mind an=20 incident(?) wherein a German, colonel equivalent,
visited the Aviation Cadet Program = at Lackland=20 circa 1954. We had just accepted German cadets into the Mutual Defense = Assistance Program.
I cannot remember the Colonels name = but he was=20 in command of a 262 sqdn (jets). He crashed at some time and was = horribly=20 disfigured from burns.
Anyway he told us that Hitler = demanded they=20 fly front line bombing rather than attacking our planes. Otherwise the = war may=20 have lasted a bit longer.
I believe he even published a book.=20
I recall a mission when our top = tuuret man=20 called out a propless plane flying alongside us. I disappeared fast = and we=20 then got heavy flak bursts.
Does anyone know his name or = remember =20 when a ME 262 got our air speed and alt.?
Buzz=20 Barton
------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C09EB0.83B53EE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 22:34:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:34:30 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <002e01c09ded$35d90940$9dab403e@kctbkuqk> Message-ID: <00ca01c09eb1$f5af99e0$5a0110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C09EB1.F3C8D880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony - If you make it to the hangar dance this year, Saturday 2 June, please = look me up. I'll be at the microphone during the festivities. Hope to C = U there. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tony flashman=20 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:06 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all Hi I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you guys. I was first introduced to = the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced landed in the sea at Pegwell = Bay England, not far from where I live. The plane had laid in thick = sand and just a few feet of water since the war. We were able to = recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller items. One of = the smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock was the = navigators flight computer. The navigator was George Arvanites and his = flight computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year = during the 303rd reunion in the UK. Best wishes to all Tony ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C09EB1.F3C8D880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony -
If you make it to the hangar dance this year, = Saturday 2=20 June, please look me up. I'll be at the microphone during the = festivities. Hope=20 to C U there.
 
Brian McGuire
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tony flashman
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 = 11:06=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello = all

Hi
 
I'm very honoured to be "amongst" you = guys. =20 I was first introduced to the 303rd via a 427th B17 that had forced = landed in=20 the sea at Pegwell Bay England, not far from where I live.  The = plane had=20 laid in thick sand and just a few feet of water since the war.  = We were=20 able to recover a couple of engines, guns and numerous smaller = items. =20 One of the smaller items recovered by the dig leader, Elliott Smock = was the=20 navigators flight computer.  The navigator was George Arvanites = and his=20 flight computer was duly handed back to him, by Elliott, last year = during the=20 303rd reunion in the UK.
 
Best wishes to all
 
Tony
------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C09EB1.F3C8D880-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 22:39:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:39:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> <26389.982989211@www11.gmx.net> <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> <3A982639.9CD0692C@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <000701c09eb2$b1da1280$7a1b4e0c@netzero> Thumbs up, Uwe. Thank you. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Lloyd, > > there´s nothing to add to your words. That´s it. > Hope, Bernd and I can give some hints or other points of view to you all from > time to time. Anyway, this is a very interesting board thanks to you, Gentlemen. > > Best wishes from Bavaria/Southern Germany, > > Uwe Wiedemann > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Bernd, Thanks for the lead and information on the engineering of synthetic > > fuels. I will do some further research in order to try to understand the > > process better. > > There is sad irony in Wars. Politicians start them and the people they > > supposedly are there to serve are ultimately compelled to fight them. I > > think that my Country had to relearn this bitter lesson in Viet Nam. War is > > best conducted by men trained in the prosecution of war. If everyone was > > compelled on a regular basis to view the mangled bodies and gruesome > > destruction that are the results of war, and the bitter sorrow left in its' > > wake, perhaps people would grow finally to realize the utter futility of > > armed conflict. In our times, the world is held hostage by the unimaginable > > horror of atomic weapons, thus it is even more imperative to be vigilant > > and aware. When our politians fail Peace fails. This is a beautiful planet > > that God has given us the stewardship of. I hope we will continue to evolve > > to accept this trust. > > I believe that this website is in, great part, dedicated to the effort of > > reminding us all. I am personally glad to see you and Uwe here to share > > your thoughts and opinions. I too am glad to be a part of it. > > Aufwiedersein. LG > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bernd Schlüter" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Sorry, there was an internet breakdown in the net of the still existing > > > monopole of the German Telekom just like in wartime. > > > Lloyd, I have know the old hydration factories near Cologne and the famous > > > "Leuna", which was sold by our Chancelour Helmut Kohl by a foolish > > > transaction, which led to his resignation. > > > You found these factories all over all germany, by cathalysis of carbon > > with > > > water you get "reformed" hydrogenium, which will be syntesized with the > > > carbon fragments to bigger hydrocarbon chains, resulting in a poor fuel of > > 70 ROZ > > > or so. The compression ratio of the engines was very low because of that, > > > 7:1 or so, and the German planes had to be most carefully optimized to get > > near > > > to the velocity of your mashines. > > > There had been a birthday present of the superior of my father, Herrmann > > > Goering, to Mr. Hitler, which cost fuel supplies from Russia. This > > unnecessary > > > present was Stalingrad, later Wolgograd. > > > The Reichsluftfahrtminister, I know the nicknames of him too, made many > > > mistakes, though he was a very good air fighter in world war one and a > > famous and > > > good movieactor. > > > He liked birthday parties too much and shortened the war by his alcoholic > > > escapades a lot. One fault was the production of planes by too many of his > > > friends, another was to obbey the silly order of Hitler, flying into > > passion, to > > > reconstruct the most expensive fighters, included, the Me262 into > > > bombers(!). "Herrmann" did, though all thought , he was crazy. It is true, > > what Fory > > > Barton reports. And Mr. Steinhoff has confirmed just the same as my > > friend, who > > > could stop his fighter career at that time and had only transportion > > orders > > > further on and survived like you. > > > I should bring him a modem for his PC, he would have a lot to tell. > > > > > > My father suffered a lot by bad decisions of the destructive despots, but > > > though the inventors of that war were the evils, they shortened it quite a > > lot. > > > The higher German officers would have made the job better, if the nazi > > > leaders would not have had the possibility to interfeare. > > > > > > So, luck in bad luck, the war ended sooner. > > > Bad luck for the German people, the Allied had decided in Yalta to bring > > two > > > thirds of Germany under the control of the communists. And do not forget > > the > > > Polands, the Baltics, Romanians, Bulgarians...half of Europeans had to > > > become communists by allied decisions. There is still the conflict in > > Yugoslavia, > > > which started the first world war in Germany. > > > Good luck, today I am rather satisfied with the polticians here and in the > > > States, but we should watch them! Then it is easier to make the job well, > > even > > > bombing. > > > Bernd > > > > > > -- > > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 22:42:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:42:04 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000501c09cf9$7d93c580$d78f4d0c@netzero> <26389.982989211@www11.gmx.net> <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <00d901c09eb3$058af020$5a0110ac@Betac.com> And the Leuna Works continues to function! Visited the site west of Leipzig a few years ago when I took Gene Girman there, where he was shot down on 24 Sep 44 (he landed in site of the bridge at Torgau where US and Soviet soldiers were to link up the following spring) and all the other POW camps and hospitals where he was held (ending up at Mooseberg). Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Bernd, Thanks for the lead and information on the engineering of synthetic > fuels. I will do some further research in order to try to understand the > process better. > There is sad irony in Wars. Politicians start them and the people they > supposedly are there to serve are ultimately compelled to fight them. I > think that my Country had to relearn this bitter lesson in Viet Nam. War is > best conducted by men trained in the prosecution of war. If everyone was > compelled on a regular basis to view the mangled bodies and gruesome > destruction that are the results of war, and the bitter sorrow left in its' > wake, perhaps people would grow finally to realize the utter futility of > armed conflict. In our times, the world is held hostage by the unimaginable > horror of atomic weapons, thus it is even more imperative to be vigilant > and aware. When our politians fail Peace fails. This is a beautiful planet > that God has given us the stewardship of. I hope we will continue to evolve > to accept this trust. > I believe that this website is in, great part, dedicated to the effort of > reminding us all. I am personally glad to see you and Uwe here to share > your thoughts and opinions. I too am glad to be a part of it. > Aufwiedersein. LG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bernd Schlüter" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > Sorry, there was an internet breakdown in the net of the still existing > > monopole of the German Telekom just like in wartime. > > Lloyd, I have know the old hydration factories near Cologne and the famous > > "Leuna", which was sold by our Chancelour Helmut Kohl by a foolish > > transaction, which led to his resignation. > > You found these factories all over all germany, by cathalysis of carbon > with > > water you get "reformed" hydrogenium, which will be syntesized with the > > carbon fragments to bigger hydrocarbon chains, resulting in a poor fuel of > 70 ROZ > > or so. The compression ratio of the engines was very low because of that, > > 7:1 or so, and the German planes had to be most carefully optimized to get > near > > to the velocity of your mashines. > > There had been a birthday present of the superior of my father, Herrmann > > Goering, to Mr. Hitler, which cost fuel supplies from Russia. This > unnecessary > > present was Stalingrad, later Wolgograd. > > The Reichsluftfahrtminister, I know the nicknames of him too, made many > > mistakes, though he was a very good air fighter in world war one and a > famous and > > good movieactor. > > He liked birthday parties too much and shortened the war by his alcoholic > > escapades a lot. One fault was the production of planes by too many of his > > friends, another was to obbey the silly order of Hitler, flying into > passion, to > > reconstruct the most expensive fighters, included, the Me262 into > > bombers(!). "Herrmann" did, though all thought , he was crazy. It is true, > what Fory > > Barton reports. And Mr. Steinhoff has confirmed just the same as my > friend, who > > could stop his fighter career at that time and had only transportion > orders > > further on and survived like you. > > I should bring him a modem for his PC, he would have a lot to tell. > > > > My father suffered a lot by bad decisions of the destructive despots, but > > though the inventors of that war were the evils, they shortened it quite a > lot. > > The higher German officers would have made the job better, if the nazi > > leaders would not have had the possibility to interfeare. > > > > So, luck in bad luck, the war ended sooner. > > Bad luck for the German people, the Allied had decided in Yalta to bring > two > > thirds of Germany under the control of the communists. And do not forget > the > > Polands, the Baltics, Romanians, Bulgarians...half of Europeans had to > > become communists by allied decisions. There is still the conflict in > Yugoslavia, > > which started the first world war in Germany. > > Good luck, today I am rather satisfied with the polticians here and in the > > States, but we should watch them! Then it is easier to make the job well, > even > > bombing. > > Bernd > > > > -- > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 23:26:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (tony flashman) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:26:42 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance Message-ID: <002101c09eb9$3fd2eca0$82b9403e@kctbkuqk> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C09EB9.3EC65EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the invite Brian, I would love to meet you guys. Please pass = on the details and I'll see you there! Best Regards from the UK Tony Flashman ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C09EB9.3EC65EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the invite Brian, I would = love to meet=20 you guys.  Please pass on the details and I'll see you = there!
 
Best Regards from the UK
 
Tony = Flashman
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C09EB9.3EC65EA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 00:02:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:02:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all Message-ID: <39.11156640.27c9a58a@aol.com> Aw shucks Brian...looks like I'm gonna miss the Hangar Dance, darn it....along with your crooning. Any songs picked out? Cheers, Bob and Nyela From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 00:30:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:30:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <4757.983061034@www11.gmx.net> Hi, Loyd, chemical processing of coal to fuel (Fischer and Tropsch) was made in two steps. First there was to be produced the so called reformed gas, by adding coal (coke), oxygenium and watersteam and a rather active catalyst to produce hydrogenium and as much as possible of CO. This gas was then sent into very, very huge towers with huge surfaces of a mild catalyst, iron. The temperature and pressure had to be controlled in very small limits, on the other way you got nothing new or mere hydrogenium, CO2 and soot. These towers, you found them at many places allover germany were a favoured aim for your bombers, with much effect. The fuel was good for a diesel engine and the engineers had a lot to do to adapt the motors to it. These had a optimized full power durability of 25 hours only in spite of yours. During the battle these were doped and cooled by supplementary methanol and water. A friend of me has "inherited" such a factory and has produced mere soot for color and for tyres for the Shell company. I could get all details. Today the process is dicussed again to get fuel from waste. You know, since the Allieds gave away half of Europe to the communists, we produce even food of waste, we feed our cattle by it and even Mac Donalds and Burger King use carcass for human meals here. Instead of importing food from the States the loss of the fertile land in the east has been compensated by breeding illnesses by poisened food. - The favoured plane for me is an UL. Today I maintained the Ultralight of a friend in Moenchengladbach. I inherited some books for pilots, there. The favoured fighter for most German pilots was an Ultralight, too, the Me109, originally produced by the Bayerische Flugzeugfabriken, therefore called Bf109, too. Normally it was superior to all single fighters. But at the end of the war there was a lack of exercized pilots, they had only experience with gliders, and so at least the P51 had become superiour. This was by the greater part the consequence of lack of fuel. There was really no exercize and in the small and light Me109 there was no place for two pilots (3400 kg). - Terrible things happen not only in the time of war, but during those of freedom, too. We all have to work hard to get a better world. Until today you always find people, who make their own benefits by injuring others. Incredible, but it is true. I am standing under the threat of death, for the case I would go into the public too much with the story which happened to us in Nepal 1985. Good luck, for we have got witnessers of that what German and Nepalese offices did to us, the most important witnessers are people of your country and they helped voluntarily and effectively. For we have a new government, I think, the time has come to speak. So let us improve our democracies and become an effective part of it. Politicians are not adapted for that job. Bernd -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 01:42:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:42:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <000701c09e7f$aa411100$6d914d0c@netzero> <4757.983061034@www11.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> Bernd, I appreciate the additional information. I can't help but notice you have a real hard on for the Communists. Do by any chance live in what was formerly known as East Germany? I think that Communism in its' idealized concept wouldnt be so bad, but as a practical form of goverment , if it were not so tragic; it would be hilarious. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Schlüter" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Hi, Loyd, > chemical processing of coal to fuel (Fischer and Tropsch) was made in two > steps. First there was to be produced the so called reformed gas, by adding > coal (coke), oxygenium and watersteam and a rather active catalyst to produce > hydrogenium and as much as possible of CO. This gas was then sent into very, > very huge towers with huge surfaces of a mild catalyst, iron. > The temperature and pressure had to be controlled in very small limits, on > the other way you got nothing new or mere hydrogenium, CO2 and soot. > These towers, you found them at many places allover germany were a favoured > aim for your bombers, with much effect. The fuel was good for a diesel engine > and the engineers had a lot to do to adapt the motors to it. These had a > optimized full power durability of 25 hours only in spite of yours. > During the battle these were doped and cooled by supplementary methanol and > water. > A friend of me has "inherited" such a factory and has produced mere soot for > color and for tyres for the Shell company. > I could get all details. Today the process is dicussed again to get fuel > from waste. You know, since the Allieds gave away half of Europe to the > communists, we produce even food of waste, we feed our cattle by it and even Mac > Donalds and Burger King use carcass for human meals here. > Instead of importing food from the States the loss of the fertile land in > the east has been compensated by breeding illnesses by poisened food. > - > The favoured plane for me is an UL. Today I maintained the Ultralight of a > friend in Moenchengladbach. I inherited some books for pilots, there. > The favoured fighter for most German pilots was an Ultralight, too, the > Me109, originally produced by the Bayerische Flugzeugfabriken, therefore called > Bf109, too. Normally it was superior to all single fighters. But at the end of > the war there was a lack of exercized pilots, they had only experience with > gliders, and so at least the P51 had become superiour. This was by the > greater part the consequence of lack of fuel. There was really no exercize and in > the small and light Me109 there was no place for two pilots (3400 kg). > - > Terrible things happen not only in the time of war, but during those of > freedom, too. We all have to work hard to get a better world. Until today you > always find people, who make their own benefits by injuring others. Incredible, > but it is true. I am standing under the threat of death, for the case I > would go into the public too much with the story which happened to us in Nepal > 1985. Good luck, for we have got witnessers of that what German and Nepalese > offices did to us, the most important witnessers are people of your country and > they helped voluntarily and effectively. For we have a new government, I > think, the time has come to speak. So let us improve our democracies and become > an effective part of it. > Politicians are not adapted for that job. > Bernd > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 03:46:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:46:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Staff Sergeant Benjamin F. Spring Message-ID: <75.10bad1b7.27c9da2b@aol.com> jay ,thanks. we need more who have such good info to provide as it is a means to assuredly complete this most worthy project ,so effectively led . spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 09:06:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:06:05 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs References: <3a.113d03a8.27c821ec@aol.com> <3A96D732.CBAF535A@attglobal.net> <3A96DA97.DE70FE0D@newsfactory.net> <012901c09cdb$6a1c8a00$3e8e9840@dlinks.com> Message-ID: <3A98CAFC.58400147@attglobal.net> --------------F2A22F2BD045B75244BA03BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have no record of any unit or units with which my cousins were connected. One was Richard Heller, pronounced REE-SCHARD and the other was Robert Heller, pronounced ROW-BEAR .... A friend of mine in the Lufthansa, the late Hans Mueller-Nalbach knew both of them as he grew up in the same town with them near Limbach a little place called Breunsdorf in Saxony. That's all I know. Cheers and Tschuess! HELLER FRANCISCO QUIÑONES wrote: > I do research on the air war over Europecan you tell me your cousins > names gerschwader unit,if any victoriesdates if were shot down > etc,etc. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Uwe Wiedemann > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 > - 2 msgs > Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story > and the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill > Eisenhart. Sad but true. > My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG > 26 during BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa > campaign. My uncle, a Florida resident, was with some Bomb > group in the PTO. How close we are, aren´t we?! > Best wishes from Germany, > > Uwe Wiedemann > > > > William Heller schrieb: > > > In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German > > heritage in the beginning of our own United States. In > > WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against > > us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht > > had taken his new American bride to Germany for a > > honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the > > military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a > > German national putting in his "years" to become an > > American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. > > His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his > > relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent > > home to the US with his American bride. My two cousins > > in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA. > > > > In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the > > German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became > > very close friends with all the fellows who flew against > > us. They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US > > Army Air Corps, were doing ours. That their leader put > > party above country and led them astray should not be held > > against them on a personal basis. Today they are one our > > greatest Allies. > > > > I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not > > burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with > > guilt for same. And this same belief is what should > > nurture our hope for continued political action in this > > country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party! > > > > I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits. That we > > should have been more vigilant when they went down the > > path Htiler charted for them, is true. But let us not > > forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel > > "safe" after his famous visit. > > > > Methinks we will not make such errors in the future. And > > let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on. > > > > Cheers, AMS .... > > > > WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot) > > > > > > AMS303@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Talking about best of friends. > > > > > > My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both > > > Germans. > > > > > > Needless to say we think they are both a great. > > > Naturally the two wives > > > > > > have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their > > > houses and the lawns > > > etc. > > > > > > A Smith > > --------------F2A22F2BD045B75244BA03BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have no record of any unit or units with which my cousins were connected. One was Richard Heller, pronounced REE-SCHARD and the other was Robert Heller, pronounced ROW-BEAR  .... A friend of mine in the Lufthansa, the late Hans Mueller-Nalbach knew both of them as he grew up in the same town with them near Limbach a little place called Breunsdorf in Saxony.  That's all I know.

Cheers  and Tschuess!

HELLER

FRANCISCO QUIÑONES wrote:

I do research on the air war over Europecan you tell me your cousins names gerschwader unit,if any victoriesdates if were shot down etc,etc.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #170 - 2 msgs
 Thank you for your words, William. I´ve heard of your story and the one of your 2 cousins at first from Mr. Bill Eisenhart. Sad but true.
My father was a radio operator with the signal troops of ZG 26 during BoB and some Stuka-units during the North Africa campaign. My uncle, a Florida resident, was with some Bomb group in the PTO. How close we are, aren´t we?!
Best wishes from Germany,

Uwe Wiedemann
 
 

William Heller schrieb:

In spite of the Holocaust we must remember the German heritage in the beginning of our own United States.  In WW#2, I had two cousins in the Luftwaffe flying against us. One cousin in the Wehmacht. The one in the Wehrmacht had taken his new American bride to Germany for a honeymoon, circa 1938 and he was immediately put in the military. He had been a Heidleberg graduate and still a German national putting in his "years" to become an American. As such was made an Officer in the Wehrmacht. His American wife sat out the war in Munich with his relatives. At the end of the war he was immediately sent home to the  US with his American bride.  My two cousins in the Luftwaffe, Me109 and FW190 were KIA.

In the post war period I was an airline Captain for the German Lufthansa for ten years, and worked with and became very close friends with all the fellows who flew against us.  They were fine lads doing their duty as we, in the US Army Air Corps, were doing ours.  That their leader put party above country and led them astray should not be held against them on a personal basis.  Today they are one our greatest Allies.

I believe we should not forget the Holocast but should not burden the entire German populace nor their offspring with guilt for same.  And this same belief is what should nurture our hope for continued political action in this country FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT for the party!

I spent a lot of my youth in Germany on visits.  That we should have been more vigilant when they went down the path Htiler charted for them, is true.  But let us not forget a certain Mr. Chamberlain for allowing us to feel "safe" after his famous visit.

Methinks we will not make such errors in the future.  And let us welcome Germany as our Allies from now on.

Cheers, AMS  ....

WCH (former 359th and 360th pilot)
 

AMS303@aol.com wrote:

Talking about best of friends.

My wife's father and my best friend's wife were both Germans.

Needless to say we think they are both a great.  Naturally the two wives

have a lot in common and both demand perfection in their houses and the lawns
etc.

A Smith

--------------F2A22F2BD045B75244BA03BA-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 22:34:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:34:46 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance References: <002101c09eb9$3fd2eca0$82b9403e@kctbkuqk> Message-ID: <001301c09f7b$29c8e780$720110ac@Betac.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09F7B.2826D040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you send me your address I will have the unit here put you on their = mailing list. Cheers. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tony flashman=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 11:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance Thanks for the invite Brian, I would love to meet you guys. Please = pass on the details and I'll see you there! Best Regards from the UK Tony Flashman ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09F7B.2826D040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you send me your address I will have the unit = here put=20 you on their mailing list.
 
Cheers.
 
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tony flashman
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, = 2001 11:26=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger = dance

Thanks for the invite Brian, I would = love to meet=20 you guys.  Please pass on the details and I'll see you=20 there!
 
Best Regards from the UK
 
Tony=20 Flashman
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C09F7B.2826D040-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 22:36:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:36:07 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <39.11156640.27c9a58a@aol.com> Message-ID: <001f01c09f7b$59fb2940$720110ac@Betac.com> Hey, I don't sing! (We will have a professional band with singer[s]). Don't speak very well either, but somebody's got to do it. Cheers. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello all > Aw shucks Brian...looks like I'm gonna miss the Hangar Dance, darn > it....along with your crooning. Any songs picked out? Cheers, Bob and > Nyela > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Feb 25 23:00:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (tony flashman) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:00:45 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance References: <002101c09eb9$3fd2eca0$82b9403e@kctbkuqk> <001301c09f7b$29c8e780$720110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <001701c09f7e$cc0a59e0$4eb1403e@kctbkuqk> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09F7E.C96C7D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian Heres my address=20 TONY FLASHMAN 20 KINGS CLOSE KINGSDOWN DEAL KENT CT14 8BA ENGLAND Many thanks Tony ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian McGuire=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance If you send me your address I will have the unit here put you on their = mailing list. Cheers. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tony flashman=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 11:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger dance Thanks for the invite Brian, I would love to meet you guys. Please = pass on the details and I'll see you there! Best Regards from the UK Tony Flashman ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09F7E.C96C7D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian
 
Heres my address
 
TONY FLASHMAN
20 KINGS CLOSE
KINGSDOWN
DEAL
KENT CT14 8BA
ENGLAND
 
Many thanks
 
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brian McGuire
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 = 10:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = Hanger=20 dance

If you send me your address I will have the = unit here=20 put you on their mailing list.
 
Cheers.
 
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tony flashman
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, = 2001 11:26=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hanger=20 dance

Thanks for the invite Brian, I = would love to=20 meet you guys.  Please pass on the details and I'll see you=20 there!
 
Best Regards from the = UK
 
Tony=20 Flashman
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C09F7E.C96C7D80-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 16:36:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:36:01 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very strongly during my many visits to the east, was, communism at all was very unpopular there and I report only, what was astonishing for me, and perhaps it is for you, too. Most people in the east of Europe felt it as a punishment to have been freed by the Russians and not by Americans , for instance the Polish people, and the, I did not believe what I heard, Vietnamese. Soon the divided Europe will be united. I think, thisa is most important for our nourishment and the wars here will find an end at least. Because of the division of Europe by the Allieds there is still a big lack of land, which lies in the east still today and had nourished all Europe very well. Today, you hear it in the press, Europe must be nourished by waste, leading to heavy illnesses, BSE is only one of them. I am a little bit in the direction of the green party, you must know. But I have another question: Where do I find good adresses for Ultralights on the web, without armament, of cause. Especially a forum for constructors would be interesting for me. And there is another field of my interest, electronics of navigation and clear up in the military sense. My friend, who landed a F104 (blown out) without the pilot in the desert of Arizona, told me a lot and I do not find much literature here. These terrible Greens ban it from the libraries... Tomorrow I will be screwing at the Ultralight again, though there is still carneval in the Rheinland here! Bernd -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 17:01:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Louis Grandwilliams) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:01:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: HAWAII"Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned s Message-ID: <14040-3A9A8BF4-441@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-3716-209 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-3716-209 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit 22015.jpg --WebTV-Mail-3716-209 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-103-1.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.104) by storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailsorter-103-1.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id 60FC82D; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:14:15 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: oldblackmagic@mailsorter-bryant.bryant.webtv.net Received: from storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net (iapisp-ipmux-5-a2-pip.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.5]) by mailsorter-103-1.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 5553028 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id GAA19021; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRu8JTY8vYH+CdAqfeFF4zCk2ylBAIULA+RIu/SwhDwBHxlHLlJr6vkisU= From: RORY50@webtv.net (B 17 PILOT) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:14:13 -0500 (EST) To: OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: HAWAII"Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned s Message-ID: <11796-3A9A64B5-201@storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-30989-103 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=white; TextColor=darkgreen MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) --WebTV-Mail-30989-103 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable "Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned soldiers are listed below. NAME =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AGE =A0 =A0 =A0 DUTY POSITION George Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 41 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW4/Pilot Greg I. Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW2/Co-Pilot Thomas E. Barber 27 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Crew Member =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Champlin, MN Bob D. McDonald =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SPC/Crew Member Rafael Olvera Rodriguez =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Artillery Crewman Robert L. Olson =A0 =A0 35 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 MAJ Battalion Operations =A0 =A0 Big Falls, MN Regards, Ron --Original Message----- Subject: NASCAR and Perspective 19 February 2001 On 18 February 2001, while racing for fame and fortune, Dale Earnhardt died in the last lap of the Daytona 500. It was surely a tragedy for his family, friends and fans. He was 49 years old with grown children, one, which was in the race. I am new to the NASCAR culture so much of what I know has come from the newspaper and TV. He was a winner and earned everything he had. This included more than "$41 million in winnings and ten times that from endorsements and souvenir sales". He had a beautiful home and a private jet. He drove the most sophisticated cars allowed and every part was inspected and replaced as soon as there was any evidence of wear. This is normally fully funded by the car and team sponsors. Today, there is no TV station that does not constantly remind us of his tragic end and the radio already has a song of tribute to this winning driver. Nothing should be taken away from this man, he was a professional and the best in his profession. He was in a very dangerous business but the rewards were great. Two weeks ago six U.S. Army soldiers died in a training accident when two UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters collided during night maneuvers in Hawaii. The soldiers were all in their twenties, pilots, crewchiefs and infantrymen. Most of them lived in sub-standard housing. If you add their actual duty hours (in the field, deployed) they probably earn something close to minimum wage. The aircraft they were in were between 15 and 20 years old. Many times parts were not available to keep them in good shape due to funding. They were involved in the extremely dangerous business of flying in the Kuhuku mountains at night. It only gets worse when the weather moves in as it did that night. Most times no one is there with a yellow or red flag to slow things down when it gets critical. Their children were mostly toddlers who will lose all memory of who "Daddy" was as they grow up. They died training to defend our freedom. I take nothing away from Dale Earnhardt but ask you to perform this simple test. Ask any of your friends if they know who was the NASCAR driver killed on 18 February 2001. Then ask them if they can name one of the seven soldiers who died in Hawaii two weeks ago. 18 February 2001, Dale Earnhardt died driving for fame and glory at the Daytona 500. The nation mourns. Seven soldiers died training to protect our freedom. No one can remember their names. James V. Torney CW4, US Army, Retired "Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned soldiers are listed below. NAME =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AGE =A0 =A0 =A0 DUTY POSITION George Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 41 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW4/Pilot Greg I. Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW2/Co-Pilot Thomas E. Barber 27 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Crew Member =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Champlin, MN Bob D. McDonald =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SPC/Crew Member Rafael Olvera Rodriguez =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Artillery Crewman Robert L. Olson =A0 =A0 35 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 MAJ Battalion Operations =A0 =A0 Big Falls, MN Regards, Ron --Original Message----- Subject: NASCAR and Perspective 19 February 2001 On 18 February 2001, while racing for fame and fortune, Dale Earnhardt died in the last lap of the Daytona 500. It was surely a tragedy for his family, friends and fans. He was 49 years old with grown children, one, which was in the race. I am new to the NASCAR culture so much of what I know has come from the newspaper and TV. He was a winner and earned everything he had. This included more than "$41 million in winnings and ten times that from endorsements and souvenir sales". He had a beautiful home and a private jet. He drove the most sophisticated cars allowed and every part was inspected and replaced as soon as there was any evidence of wear. This is normally fully funded by the car and team sponsors. Today, there is no TV station that does not constantly remind us of his tragic end and the radio already has a song of tribute to this winning driver. Nothing should be taken away from this man, he was a professional and the best in his profession. He was in a very dangerous business but the rewards were great. Two weeks ago six U.S. Army soldiers died in a training accident when two UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters collided during night maneuvers in Hawaii. The soldiers were all in their twenties, pilots, crewchiefs and infantrymen. Most of them lived in sub-standard housing. If you add their actual duty hours (in the field, deployed) they probably earn something close to minimum wage. The aircraft they were in were between 15 and 20 years old. Many times parts were not available to keep them in good shape due to funding. They were involved in the extremely dangerous business of flying in the Kuhuku mountains at night. It only gets worse when the weather moves in as it did that night. Most times no one is there with a yellow or red flag to slow things down when it gets critical. Their children were mostly toddlers who will lose all memory of who "Daddy" was as they grow up. They died training to defend our freedom. I take nothing away from Dale Earnhardt but ask you to perform this simple test. Ask any of your friends if they know who was the NASCAR driver killed on 18 February 2001. Then ask them if they can name one of the seven soldiers who died in Hawaii two weeks ago. 18 February 2001, Dale Earnhardt died driving for fame and glory at the Daytona 500. The nation mourns. Seven soldiers died training to protect our freedom. No one can remember their names. James V. Torney CW4, US Army, Retired "Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned soldiers are listed below. NAME =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AGE =A0 =A0 =A0 DUTY POSITION George Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 41 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW4/Pilot Greg I. Perry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CW2/Co-Pilot Thomas E. Barber 27 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Crew Member =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Champlin, MN Bob D. McDonald =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SPC/Crew Member Rafael Olvera Rodriguez =A0 =A0 =A0 SGT/Artillery Crewman Robert L. Olson =A0 =A0 35 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 MAJ Battalion Operations =A0 =A0 Big Falls, MN Regards, Ron --Original Message----- Subject: NASCAR and Perspective 19 February 2001 On 18 February 2001, while racing for fame and fortune, Dale Earnhardt died in the last lap of the Daytona 500. It was surely a tragedy for his family, friends and fans. He was 49 years old with grown children, one, which was in the race. I am new to the NASCAR culture so much of what I know has come from the newspaper and TV. He was a winner and earned everything he had. This included more than "$41 million in winnings and ten times that from endorsements and souvenir sales". He had a beautiful home and a private jet. He drove the most sophisticated cars allowed and every part was inspected and replaced as soon as there was any evidence of wear. This is normally fully funded by the car and team sponsors. Today, there is no TV station that does not constantly remind us of his tragic end and the radio already has a song of tribute to this winning driver. Nothing should be taken away from this man, he was a professional and the best in his profession. He was in a very dangerous business but the rewards were great. Two weeks ago six U.S. Army soldiers died in a training accident when two UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters collided during night maneuvers in Hawaii. The soldiers were all in their twenties, pilots, crewchiefs and infantrymen. Most of them lived in sub-standard housing. If you add their actual duty hours (in the field, deployed) they probably earn something close to minimum wage. The aircraft they were in were between 15 and 20 years old. Many times parts were not available to keep them in good shape due to funding. They were involved in the extremely dangerous business of flying in the Kuhuku mountains at night. It only gets worse when the weather moves in as it did that night. Most times no one is there with a yellow or red flag to slow things down when it gets critical. Their children were mostly toddlers who will lose all memory of who "Daddy" was as they grow up. They died training to defend our freedom. I take nothing away from Dale Earnhardt but ask you to perform this simple test. Ask any of your friends if they know who was the NASCAR driver killed on 18 February 2001. Then ask them if they can name one of the seven soldiers who died in Hawaii two weeks ago. 18 February 2001, Dale Earnhardt died driving for fame and glory at the Daytona 500. The nation mourns. Seven soldiers died training to protect our freedom. No one can remember their names. James V. Torney CW4, US Army, Retired --WebTV-Mail-30989-103 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit < html> ! ! --WebTV-Mail-30989-103-- --WebTV-Mail-3716-209-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 17:13:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:13:26 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> Message-ID: <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> Berndt ... You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green Party AND Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply with the rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go against Mother Nature. ... Tschuess! WCH Bernd Schlüter wrote: > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very strongly > during my many visits to the east, was, communism at all was very unpopular > there and I report only, what was astonishing for me, and perhaps it is for > you, too. Most people in the east of Europe felt it as a punishment to have > been freed by the Russians and not by Americans , for instance the Polish > people, and the, I did not believe what I heard, Vietnamese. Soon the divided > Europe will be united. I think, thisa is most important for our nourishment and > the wars here will find an end at least. Because of the division of Europe by > the Allieds there is still a big lack of land, which lies in the east still > today and had nourished all Europe very well. Today, you hear it in the press, > Europe must be nourished by waste, leading to heavy illnesses, BSE is only > one of them. > I am a little bit in the direction of the green party, you must know. > But I have another question: Where do I find good adresses for Ultralights > on the web, without armament, of cause. Especially a forum for constructors > would be interesting for me. And there is another field of my interest, > electronics of navigation and clear up in the military sense. My friend, who > landed a F104 (blown out) without the pilot in the desert of Arizona, told > me a lot and I do not find much literature here. These terrible Greens ban it > from the libraries... > Tomorrow I will be screwing at the Ultralight again, though there is still > carneval in the Rheinland here! > Bernd > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 20:34:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:34:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: HAWAII"Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned s References: <14040-3A9A8BF4-441@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001901c0a033$7a068dc0$05904d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0A009.8F5A8D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Louis, thank you for sending that. It is a sobering reminder. I will = forward it to some friends "FYI". I hope that every member here will = consider sending a condolence when ever possible. Ronald CW3s' letter = deserves National attention. LG. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Louis Grandwilliams=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: HAWAII"Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The = names of the below mentioned s -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- 22015.jpg=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0A009.8F5A8D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Louis, thank you for sending = that.  It is a=20 sobering reminder.  I will forward it to some friends "FYI".  = I =20 hope that every member here will consider sending a condolence when ever = possible.  Ronald CW3s' letter deserves National attention.=20 LG.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Louis=20 Grandwilliams
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 = 12:01=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd:=20 HAWAII"Britton, Ronald CW3" wrote: The names of the below mentioned = s

22015.jpg ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0A009.8F5A8D40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 21:05:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:05:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> Message-ID: <002e01c0a037$d8e97d80$05904d0c@netzero> " Out , out! Brief candle! Life is but a shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage; and is then , seen no more. T'is a tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, yet, signifying nothing." Bill Shakespeare "... therefore; send not to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee." Johnny Dunne "... If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds' worth of distance run Yours is the Earth and everything that is in it... " Rudyard Kipling. " Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth, and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings..." Keep looking up, Bernd. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Schlüter" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very strongly > during my many visits to the east, was, communism at all was very unpopular > there and I report only, what was astonishing for me, and perhaps it is for > you, too. Most people in the east of Europe felt it as a punishment to have > been freed by the Russians and not by Americans , for instance the Polish > people, and the, I did not believe what I heard, Vietnamese. Soon the divided > Europe will be united. I think, thisa is most important for our nourishment and > the wars here will find an end at least. Because of the division of Europe by > the Allieds there is still a big lack of land, which lies in the east still > today and had nourished all Europe very well. Today, you hear it in the press, > Europe must be nourished by waste, leading to heavy illnesses, BSE is only > one of them. > I am a little bit in the direction of the green party, you must know. > But I have another question: Where do I find good adresses for Ultralights > on the web, without armament, of cause. Especially a forum for constructors > would be interesting for me. And there is another field of my interest, > electronics of navigation and clear up in the military sense. My friend, who > landed a F104 (blown out) without the pilot in the desert of Arizona, told > me a lot and I do not find much literature here. These terrible Greens ban it > from the libraries... > Tomorrow I will be screwing at the Ultralight again, though there is still > carneval in the Rheinland here! > Bernd > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 21:17:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:17:52 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Berndt and Uwe, I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. Thank you. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com _________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Berndt ... > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green Party AND > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply with the > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go against > Mother Nature. ... > > Tschuess! > > WCH > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very strongly > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 22:20:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:20:02 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <006601c0a042$45371f60$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Gordan - Ron Mackay, Chairman of FOTE, is a good friend of mine and recently published an excellent book entitled Messerschmitt Bf110. Unfortunately Evers is not in the index, but I will pass your e-mail on to Ron at our next meeting in March. He has scads of contacts and maybe he can track down some information. I had a few contacts with the Luftwaffe groups but they are too dated. Will let you know. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Alton To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Berndt and Uwe, > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > Thank you. > Gordy. > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 134 Woodland Drive > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > _________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > Berndt ... > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > Party AND > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > with the > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > against > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > Tschuess! > > > > WCH > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > strongly > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 22:15:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:15:02 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> Gordon: Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe Forum, where some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed on a site called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already listed ). Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the news mag of the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the "Luftwaffen-Revue". As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( Sorry, Hal, no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet unfortunately isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to be in the States and elsewhere. Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. Cheers from Bavaria and Auf Wiedersehen, will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... Uwe Gordon Alton schrieb: > Berndt and Uwe, > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > Thank you. > Gordy. > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 134 Woodland Drive > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > _________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Berndt ... > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > Party AND > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > with the > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > against > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > Tschuess! > > > > WCH > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > strongly > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 22:25:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:25:30 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> Gordon: Once again me with a short note to you and anybody searching for some "counterpart": The adress of the research bureau of the "Jägerblatt" (Jaegerblatt) is Oberst a.D. Willi Goebel GdJ - Suchdienstzentrale Krahwinkeler Strasse 34 A D- 53797 Lohmar Germany Please feel free to write to Mr. Goebel in search for any veterans, crashlanding-sites (US etc.) and all other Air War over Europe related questions on specific happenings or persons. Your inquiry will be published in the bimonthly newsmag "Jägerblatt", which is read by really many Luftwaffe veterans, whether they served as Flak men, fighter pilots or radio operators. Good luck and thanks for some patience ( Mr. Goebel gets a lot of mail, but he goes after every single inquiry), Servus, Uwe Gordon Alton schrieb: > Berndt and Uwe, > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > Thank you. > Gordy. > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 134 Woodland Drive > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > _________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Berndt ... > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > Party AND > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > with the > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > against > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > Tschuess! > > > > WCH > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > strongly > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 22:28:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:28:40 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <006601c0a042$45371f60$6c0110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3A9AD898.CFD1B800@newsfactory.net> Brian: Could you please let me know more of the "Messerschmitt Bf 110" book of Ron ( Published by...)? My father was with the ZG 2 and ZG 26 during BoB in 1940 as a radio op. Thanks and kind regards, Uwe Brian McGuire schrieb: > Gordan - > Ron Mackay, Chairman of FOTE, is a good friend of mine and recently > published an excellent book entitled Messerschmitt Bf110. Unfortunately > Evers is not in the index, but I will pass your e-mail on to Ron at our next > meeting in March. He has scads of contacts and maybe he can track down some > information. I had a few contacts with the Luftwaffe groups but they are too > dated. Will let you know. > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gordon Alton > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:17 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > and > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in > an > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot > of > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > Thank you. > > Gordy. > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 134 Woodland Drive > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Heller" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > > Party AND > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > with the > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > > against > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > strongly > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Feb 26 23:14:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:14:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die bahnhoff" I learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Gordon: > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe Forum, where > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed on a site > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already listed ). > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the news mag of > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the "Luftwaffen-Revue". > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( Sorry, Hal, > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet unfortunately > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to be in the > States and elsewhere. > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > Cheers from Bavaria and > Auf Wiedersehen, > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > Uwe > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > Thank you. > > Gordy. > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 134 Woodland Drive > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Heller" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > > Party AND > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > with the > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > > against > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > strongly > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 00:25:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:25:32 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany Message-ID: <20.128244c5.27cc4dfc@aol.com> I got an exciting piece of mail today, a folder entitled, "ONLY the fumes are missing" from Air Craft Records, which is a list of 8 CDs provinding the thrilling sounds of different aircraft engines, flybys, etc. I had been looking for their CD "Round Sounds Volume 2, which among other things features a run-up of a B-17 which should really be something. Cuss my withering memory, I discussed this on line with someone in the 303rd setup some time ago, but can't recall whom it was. (Help!!!) Anyway, the company is located at P.O.1232, Sonoma, CAA 95476 or call toll free at 1-800-982-7767. Can't wait until I get mine....Vol. 1 is a blast. The price is $18.98 plus $3 postage. Cheers, happy noise......Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 09:09:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:09:25 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> Lloyd, no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way you wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you didn´t get me wrong. Best...., Uwe Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die bahnhoff" I > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Gordon: > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe Forum, > where > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed on a > site > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already listed ). > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the news > mag of > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > Sorry, Hal, > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > unfortunately > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to be > in the > > States and elsewhere. > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > Uwe > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > plane, > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > and > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > Shaper. > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved > in an > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a > lot of > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > Thank you. > > > Gordy. > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "William Heller" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > Green > > > Party AND > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > > with the > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to > go > > > against > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > > strongly > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 09:22:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 01:22:56 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <00ed01c0a09e$deee25c0$e609f4cc@e0y0k4> Hello, Uwe. Thanks for taking the time to help. Does Herr Goebel speak English, because miene Deutsch spreche ist nicht gut, that is for sure. If not, could I prevail upon you to do a letter for me, in German? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Gordon: > Once again me with a short note to you and anybody searching for some > "counterpart": > The adress of the research bureau of the "Jägerblatt" (Jaegerblatt) is > > Oberst a.D. Willi Goebel > GdJ - Suchdienstzentrale > Krahwinkeler Strasse 34 A > D- 53797 Lohmar > Germany > > Please feel free to write to Mr. Goebel in search for any veterans, > crashlanding-sites (US etc.) and all other Air War over Europe related questions > on specific happenings or persons. Your inquiry will be published in the > bimonthly newsmag "Jägerblatt", which is read by really many Luftwaffe veterans, > whether they served as Flak men, fighter pilots or radio operators. > Good luck and thanks for some patience ( Mr. Goebel gets a lot of mail, but he > goes after every single inquiry), > > Servus, Uwe > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, and > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in an > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot of > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > Thank you. > > Gordy. > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > Gordon L. Alton > > 134 Woodland Drive > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 16:58:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:58:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0a0de$80270a80$d5904d0c@netzero> Uwe, correct spelling is important to me. Incidently, do you remember John F. Kennedys' Berlin speech, " Ich bin eine Berliner" ? Did he really say, " I am a sausage" ? If so, I am sure that the German speaking people understood the "intent" of the expression, but how they could keep from laughing is a tribute to their courtesy. If I can learn something new every day, the day has been successful. So, my friend, Auf Wiedersehen.und danke. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Lloyd, > no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way you > wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it > correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you didn´t get > me wrong. > Best...., Uwe > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die bahnhoff" I > > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Gordon: > > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe Forum, > > where > > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed on a > > site > > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already listed ). > > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the news > > mag of > > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > > Sorry, Hal, > > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > > unfortunately > > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to be > > in the > > > States and elsewhere. > > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > > > Uwe > > > > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > > plane, > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > > and > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > > Shaper. > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved > > in an > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a > > lot of > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > > Green > > > > Party AND > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > > > with the > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to > > go > > > > against > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > > > strongly > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 17:48:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:48:06 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> <00ed01c0a09e$deee25c0$e609f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A9BE855.D626BAF0@newsfactory.net> Gordon: Hello, yes, Mr. Goebel does speak English. Anyway, I´d be glad to translate a letter for you or put it forward after printed out to Mr. Goebel. Please let me know, if you´d prefer to write him yourself or want me to write him so he won´t get it twice. Glad to hear from you again, Uwe Gordon Alton schrieb: > Hello, Uwe. > Thanks for taking the time to help. Does Herr Goebel speak English, because > miene Deutsch spreche ist nicht gut, that is for sure. If not, could I > prevail upon you to do a letter for me, in German? > Gordy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Gordon: > > Once again me with a short note to you and anybody searching for some > > "counterpart": > > The adress of the research bureau of the "Jägerblatt" (Jaegerblatt) is > > > > Oberst a.D. Willi Goebel > > GdJ - Suchdienstzentrale > > Krahwinkeler Strasse 34 A > > D- 53797 Lohmar > > Germany > > > > Please feel free to write to Mr. Goebel in search for any veterans, > > crashlanding-sites (US etc.) and all other Air War over Europe related > questions > > on specific happenings or persons. Your inquiry will be published in the > > bimonthly newsmag "Jägerblatt", which is read by really many Luftwaffe > veterans, > > whether they served as Flak men, fighter pilots or radio operators. > > Good luck and thanks for some patience ( Mr. Goebel gets a lot of mail, > but he > > goes after every single inquiry), > > > > Servus, Uwe > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > plane, > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > and > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > Shaper. > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved > in an > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a > lot of > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > Thank you. > > > Gordy. > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 18:03:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:03:32 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a0de$80270a80$d5904d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A9BEBF3.2C6A0C68@newsfactory.net> Lloyd, at the time J.F. Kennedy spoke his famous words, everybody here knew what he meant - and certainly nobody thought of the sausage called "Berliner". If you watch the movie document which shows Kennedy speaking in Berlin and look at the Berliners faces, they knew what he expressed with these words. He actually did say it in correct German: "Ich bin ein Berliner" not "eine".He even spoke the "ch" in "Ich" correctly. To me this seems to be a "after-joke" of somebody thinking of sausages named after the towns they once originated , like "Nürnberger" for a famous German sausage ( or "Thüringer"). I don´t know who brought up this not very kind joke with the "Berliner" words of JFK. The words of Kennedy brought hope and confidence to the Berliners, when they needed it most. No time for kidding at all. Hope this info helps, Lloyd. Have a nice day over there and alles Gute aus Deutschland, bis bald! Uwe Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Uwe, correct spelling is important to me. Incidently, do you remember John > F. Kennedys' Berlin speech, " Ich bin eine Berliner" ? Did he really say, " > I am a sausage" ? If so, I am sure that the German speaking people > understood the "intent" of the expression, but how they could keep from > laughing is a tribute to their courtesy. > If I can learn something new every day, the day has been successful. > So, my friend, > Auf Wiedersehen.und danke. Lloyd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:09 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Lloyd, > > no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way > you > > wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it > > correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you > didn´t get > > me wrong. > > Best...., Uwe > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die > bahnhoff" I > > > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Gordon: > > > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe > Forum, > > > where > > > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed > on a > > > site > > > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already > listed ). > > > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the > news > > > mag of > > > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the > "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > > > Sorry, Hal, > > > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > > > unfortunately > > > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to > be > > > in the > > > > States and elsewhere. > > > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > > > > > Uwe > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > > > plane, > > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was > 42-3274, > > > and > > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > > > Shaper. > > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was > involved > > > in an > > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have > a > > > lot of > > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. > Evers. > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > > > Green > > > > > Party AND > > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to > comply > > > > > with the > > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have > to > > > go > > > > > against > > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed > very > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 18:21:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:21:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a0de$80270a80$d5904d0c@netzero> <3A9BEBF3.2C6A0C68@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <01a201c0a0ea$2b2dff00$d5904d0c@netzero> Thanks for helping to relegate that misconception to the correct recepticle (file #13 = the waste-bin). Lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Lloyd, > at the time J.F. Kennedy spoke his famous words, everybody here knew what he > meant - and certainly nobody thought of the sausage called "Berliner". If you > watch the movie document which shows Kennedy speaking in Berlin and look at the > Berliners faces, they knew what he expressed with these words. He actually did > say it in correct German: "Ich bin ein Berliner" not "eine".He even spoke the > "ch" in "Ich" correctly. > To me this seems to be a "after-joke" of somebody thinking of sausages named > after the towns they once originated , like "Nürnberger" for a famous German > sausage ( or "Thüringer"). I don´t know who brought up this not very kind joke > with the "Berliner" words of JFK. The words of Kennedy brought hope and > confidence to the Berliners, when they needed it most. No time for kidding at > all. > Hope this info helps, Lloyd. > Have a nice day over there and > alles Gute aus Deutschland, bis bald! > Uwe > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Uwe, correct spelling is important to me. Incidently, do you remember John > > F. Kennedys' Berlin speech, " Ich bin eine Berliner" ? Did he really say, " > > I am a sausage" ? If so, I am sure that the German speaking people > > understood the "intent" of the expression, but how they could keep from > > laughing is a tribute to their courtesy. > > If I can learn something new every day, the day has been successful. > > So, my friend, > > Auf Wiedersehen.und danke. Lloyd > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Lloyd, > > > no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way > > you > > > wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it > > > correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you > > didn´t get > > > me wrong. > > > Best...., Uwe > > > > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > > > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die > > bahnhoff" I > > > > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > Gordon: > > > > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe > > Forum, > > > > where > > > > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed > > on a > > > > site > > > > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already > > listed ). > > > > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the > > news > > > > mag of > > > > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the > > "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > > > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > > > > Sorry, Hal, > > > > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > > > > unfortunately > > > > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to > > be > > > > in the > > > > > States and elsewhere. > > > > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > > > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > > > > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > > > > > > > Uwe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > > > > plane, > > > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was > > 42-3274, > > > > and > > > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > > > > Shaper. > > > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was > > involved > > > > in an > > > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have > > a > > > > lot of > > > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. > > Evers. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > > > > Green > > > > > > Party AND > > > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to > > comply > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have > > to > > > > go > > > > > > against > > > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed > > very > > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 21:31:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:31:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a0de$80270a80$d5904d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A9C1CB2.6024816E@attglobal.net> LG ... "Ich bin ein Berliner" means, in the day language, "I am a dougnut!" Or, if you wish. "I am a Fasnacht!" Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Uwe, correct spelling is important to me. Incidently, do you remember John > F. Kennedys' Berlin speech, " Ich bin eine Berliner" ? Did he really say, " > I am a sausage" ? If so, I am sure that the German speaking people > understood the "intent" of the expression, but how they could keep from > laughing is a tribute to their courtesy. > If I can learn something new every day, the day has been successful. > So, my friend, > Auf Wiedersehen.und danke. Lloyd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:09 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Lloyd, > > no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way > you > > wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it > > correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you > didn´t get > > me wrong. > > Best...., Uwe > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die > bahnhoff" I > > > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Gordon: > > > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe > Forum, > > > where > > > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed > on a > > > site > > > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already > listed ). > > > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the > news > > > mag of > > > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the > "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > > > Sorry, Hal, > > > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > > > unfortunately > > > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to > be > > > in the > > > > States and elsewhere. > > > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > > > > > Uwe > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > > > plane, > > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was > 42-3274, > > > and > > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > > > Shaper. > > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was > involved > > > in an > > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have > a > > > lot of > > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. > Evers. > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > > > Green > > > > > Party AND > > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to > comply > > > > > with the > > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have > to > > > go > > > > > against > > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed > very > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 21:52:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:52:48 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD565.F1BFD1C3@newsfactory.net> <000b01c0a049$d3043920$a9904d0c@netzero> <3A9B6EC4.6E3590FB@newsfactory.net> <000f01c0a0de$80270a80$d5904d0c@netzero> <3A9C1CB2.6024816E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3A9C21AF.D55ECB0D@newsfactory.net> Haha, William, you´re quite right!! Another meaning of a "Berliner"! Here we call it "Krapfen" also. Had quite a few this afternoon, taste very good! At 12.00 pm it´s all over here concerning the Fasnacht... gonna get me another zip... cheers, Uwe William Heller schrieb: > LG ... "Ich bin ein Berliner" means, in the day language, "I am a > dougnut!" Or, if you wish. "I am a Fasnacht!" > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Uwe, correct spelling is important to me. Incidently, do you remember John > > F. Kennedys' Berlin speech, " Ich bin eine Berliner" ? Did he really say, " > > I am a sausage" ? If so, I am sure that the German speaking people > > understood the "intent" of the expression, but how they could keep from > > laughing is a tribute to their courtesy. > > If I can learn something new every day, the day has been successful. > > So, my friend, > > Auf Wiedersehen.und danke. Lloyd > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Lloyd, > > > no problem about any spelling or so at all. It sounds correctly the way > > you > > > wrote it if spoken. Never mind. Didn´t want to teach you how to write it > > > correctly, but if I write it, I have to write it correctly. Hope, you > > didn´t get > > > me wrong. > > > Best...., Uwe > > > > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > > > > > Uwe, I knew I spelled auf weidersein incorrectly. " Wo ist die > > bahnhoff" I > > > > learned how to say, no one ever asked me to spell it. Lg. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:15 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > Gordon: > > > > > Will put your inquiry on Hauptmann Evers forward to the Luftwaffe > > Forum, > > > > where > > > > > some real specialists are involved. I myself couldn´t find him listed > > on a > > > > site > > > > > called "Piloten-Bunker" ( with about over 1000 LW-pilots already > > listed ). > > > > > Finally we could give a try to publish it in the "Jägerblatt", the > > news > > > > mag of > > > > > the former LW-Fighter-Pilots-Association and in the > > "Luftwaffen-Revue". > > > > > As far as I can tell from experience this way will take its time!! ( > > > > Sorry, Hal, > > > > > no news yet on M. Reichert.....). Here in Germany the internet > > > > unfortunately > > > > > isn´t that common among veteran´s organisations as it seems already to > > be > > > > in the > > > > > States and elsewhere. > > > > > Hope to find out something for you. I´ll keep stuck on it, Gordon. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers from Bavaria and > > > > > Auf Wiedersehen, > > > > > > > > > > will let you know as soon as some news show up in this case... > > > > > > > > > > Uwe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > > > > plane, > > > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was > > 42-3274, > > > > and > > > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > > > > Shaper. > > > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was > > involved > > > > in an > > > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have > > a > > > > lot of > > > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. > > Evers. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > > > > Green > > > > > > Party AND > > > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to > > comply > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have > > to > > > > go > > > > > > against > > > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed > > very > > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 22:23:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:23:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> <00ed01c0a09e$deee25c0$e609f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9BE855.D626BAF0@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <00c301c0a10b$e76768c0$7209f4cc@e0y0k4> If you don't mind, Uwe, I would love for you to write up a note and get it off for me. The main benefit I can see in this, is reaching a wider audience, with less trouble involved for those who may have to post it, and respond to it, most of whom will be German. Have I given you enough facts? I can supply almost any background info you may need, including MACR, and other pertinent documents. I sure appreciate your help with this. I may finally find out more about the man. I wish I could have found out before Dad passed away last month, but it will still be important for me and my children to have all of the facts. Cheers, Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Gordon: > Hello, yes, Mr. Goebel does speak English. Anyway, I´d be glad to translate a > letter for you or put it forward after printed out to Mr. Goebel. Please let me > know, if you´d prefer to write him yourself or want me to write him so he won´t > get it twice. > Glad to hear from you again, > > Uwe > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > Hello, Uwe. > > Thanks for taking the time to help. Does Herr Goebel speak English, because > > miene Deutsch spreche ist nicht gut, that is for sure. If not, could I > > prevail upon you to do a letter for me, in German? > > Gordy. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Gordon: > > > Once again me with a short note to you and anybody searching for some > > > "counterpart": > > > The adress of the research bureau of the "Jägerblatt" (Jaegerblatt) is > > > > > > Oberst a.D. Willi Goebel > > > GdJ - Suchdienstzentrale > > > Krahwinkeler Strasse 34 A > > > D- 53797 Lohmar > > > Germany > > > > > > Please feel free to write to Mr. Goebel in search for any veterans,. . . . . . . . . . . . From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 22:38:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:38:20 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <006601c0a042$45371f60$6c0110ac@Betac.com> <3A9AD898.CFD1B800@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <008b01c0a10d$fe8d6520$720110ac@Betac.com> The book is part of the Crowwood Aviation Series, published by the Crowood Press, 2000. Cost is $45, or 25 pounds. I have seen it in many bookstores. If you wish I could have Ron sign a copy and send it to you. It is a superb book, profusely illustrated. Also, you could write to the publishers: The Crowood Press Ramsbury Marlborough Wiltshire SN8 2HR cheers, Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Uwe Wiedemann To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Brian: > Could you please let me know more of the "Messerschmitt Bf 110" book of Ron ( > Published by...)? > My father was with the ZG 2 and ZG 26 during BoB in 1940 as a radio op. > > Thanks and kind regards, > > Uwe > > Brian McGuire schrieb: > > > Gordan - > > Ron Mackay, Chairman of FOTE, is a good friend of mine and recently > > published an excellent book entitled Messerschmitt Bf110. Unfortunately > > Evers is not in the index, but I will pass your e-mail on to Ron at our next > > meeting in March. He has scads of contacts and maybe he can track down some > > information. I had a few contacts with the Luftwaffe groups but they are too > > dated. Will let you know. > > > > Brian McGuire > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gordon Alton > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > > and > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in > > an > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot > > of > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > Thank you. > > > Gordy. > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "William Heller" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > > > Party AND > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > > with the > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > > > against > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > > strongly > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 22:43:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:43:51 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <006601c0a042$45371f60$6c0110ac@Betac.com> <3A9AD898.CFD1B800@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <009001c0a10e$c37961e0$720110ac@Betac.com> Sorry, forgot to mention: ZG 2 and ZG 26 are covered extensively. ----- Original Message ----- From: Uwe Wiedemann To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Brian: > Could you please let me know more of the "Messerschmitt Bf 110" book of Ron ( > Published by...)? > My father was with the ZG 2 and ZG 26 during BoB in 1940 as a radio op. > > Thanks and kind regards, > > Uwe > > Brian McGuire schrieb: > > > Gordan - > > Ron Mackay, Chairman of FOTE, is a good friend of mine and recently > > published an excellent book entitled Messerschmitt Bf110. Unfortunately > > Evers is not in the index, but I will pass your e-mail on to Ron at our next > > meeting in March. He has scads of contacts and maybe he can track down some > > information. I had a few contacts with the Luftwaffe groups but they are too > > dated. Will let you know. > > > > Brian McGuire > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gordon Alton > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's plane, > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was 42-3274, > > and > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd Shaper. > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved in > > an > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a lot > > of > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > Thank you. > > > Gordy. > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "William Heller" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the Green > > > Party AND > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to comply > > > with the > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have to go > > > against > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed very > > > strongly > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 23:01:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:01:48 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> <00ed01c0a09e$deee25c0$e609f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9BE855.D626BAF0@newsfactory.net> <00c301c0a10b$e76768c0$7209f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3A9C31DB.FF86CE0E@newsfactory.net> Gordy, I´ve got all the infos I need for a first inquiry writing to Oberst Goebel. I´m sorry to hear your father just passed away a month ago. It seems to me it´s really time for us, the sons & daughters , to keep up the impressions and facts of our Dads of these years in trouble and sorrow for we may not forget what they all went through, whether on the one or the other side. I hope I´m able to come up with sonme news for you in the near future. Please don´t be dissappointed if it doesn´t work on out the first try. I´m gonna get on it! Best from Germany, Uwe Gordon Alton schrieb: > If you don't mind, Uwe, I would love for you to write up a note and get it > off for me. The main benefit I can see in this, is reaching a wider > audience, with less trouble involved for those who may have to post it, and > respond to it, most of whom will be German. > Have I given you enough facts? I can supply almost any background info you > may need, including MACR, and other pertinent documents. > I sure appreciate your help with this. I may finally find out more about the > man. I wish I could have found out before Dad passed away last month, but it > will still be important for me and my children to have all of the facts. > Cheers, > Gordy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:48 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Gordon: > > Hello, yes, Mr. Goebel does speak English. Anyway, I´d be glad to > translate a > > letter for you or put it forward after printed out to Mr. Goebel. Please > let me > > know, if you´d prefer to write him yourself or want me to write him so he > won´t > > get it twice. > > Glad to hear from you again, > > > > Uwe > > > > > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > > > Hello, Uwe. > > > Thanks for taking the time to help. Does Herr Goebel speak English, > because > > > miene Deutsch spreche ist nicht gut, that is for sure. If not, could I > > > prevail upon you to do a letter for me, in German? > > > Gordy. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Uwe Wiedemann" > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Gordon: > > > > Once again me with a short note to you and anybody searching for some > > > > "counterpart": > > > > The adress of the research bureau of the "Jägerblatt" (Jaegerblatt) is > > > > > > > > Oberst a.D. Willi Goebel > > > > GdJ - Suchdienstzentrale > > > > Krahwinkeler Strasse 34 A > > > > D- 53797 Lohmar > > > > Germany > > > > > > > > Please feel free to write to Mr. Goebel in search for any veterans,. . > . . . . . . . . . . > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 23:10:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:10:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9AD7DA.73628CAF@newsfactory.net> <00ed01c0a09e$deee25c0$e609f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9BE855.D626BAF0@newsfactory.net> <00c301c0a10b$e76768c0$7209f4cc@e0y0k4> <3A9C31DB.FF86CE0E@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <00f401c0a112$739064e0$7209f4cc@e0y0k4> You are a gentleman and a scholar, my friend. I really appreciate it. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com ___________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uwe Wiedemann" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > Gordy, > I´ve got all the infos I need for a first inquiry writing to Oberst Goebel. I´m > sorry to hear your father just passed away a month ago. It seems to me it´s > really time for us, the sons & daughters , to keep up the impressions and facts > of our Dads of these years in trouble and sorrow for we may not forget what they > all went through, whether on the one or the other side. > I hope I´m able to come up with sonme news for you in the near future. Please > don´t be dissappointed if it doesn´t work on out the first try. > I´m gonna get on it! > Best from Germany, Uwe > > Gordon Alton schrieb: > > > If you don't mind, Uwe, I would love for you to write up a note and get it > > off for me. The main benefit I can see in this, is reaching a wider > > audience, with less trouble involved for those who may have to post it, and > > respond to it, most of whom will be German. > > Have I given you enough facts? I can supply almost any background info you > > may need, including MACR, and other pertinent documents. > > I sure appreciate your help with this. I may finally find out more about the > > man. I wish I could have found out before Dad passed away last month, but it > > will still be important for me and my children to have all of the facts. > > Cheers, > > Gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 23:07:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:07:48 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany References: <001501c09ecc$3f29e0c0$7a1b4e0c@netzero> <29676.983205361@www22.gmx.net> <3A9A8EB6.900180BF@attglobal.net> <004801c0a039$94f15d80$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> <006601c0a042$45371f60$6c0110ac@Betac.com> <3A9AD898.CFD1B800@newsfactory.net> <008b01c0a10d$fe8d6520$720110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3A9C3343.9F3B9140@newsfactory.net> Brian, thanks for your efforts! That´d be a great deal, if I could get a signed copy which would be a great gift to my Dad´s 81st in May. How could we manage this? I could send you the required amount of money included postage fees for Air Mail delivery first and then you might send the book after getting the money?! Anyway, here´s my mail address , just in case: Uwe Wiedemann Dietpaldweg 14 B D-86830 Schwabmuenchen Bavaria/Germany Just contact me off-board. Glad to hear from you again. Best...Uwe Brian McGuire schrieb: > The book is part of the Crowwood Aviation Series, published by the Crowood > Press, 2000. Cost is $45, or 25 pounds. I have seen it in many bookstores. > If you wish I could have Ron sign a copy and send it to you. It is a superb > book, profusely illustrated. > > Also, you could write to the publishers: > The Crowood Press > Ramsbury > Marlborough > Wiltshire SN8 2HR > > cheers, > > Brian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Uwe Wiedemann > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:28 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > Brian: > > Could you please let me know more of the "Messerschmitt Bf 110" book of > Ron ( > > Published by...)? > > My father was with the ZG 2 and ZG 26 during BoB in 1940 as a radio > op. > > > > Thanks and kind regards, > > > > Uwe > > > > Brian McGuire schrieb: > > > > > Gordan - > > > Ron Mackay, Chairman of FOTE, is a good friend of mine and recently > > > published an excellent book entitled Messerschmitt Bf110. Unfortunately > > > Evers is not in the index, but I will pass your e-mail on to Ron at our > next > > > meeting in March. He has scads of contacts and maybe he can track down > some > > > information. I had a few contacts with the Luftwaffe groups but they are > too > > > dated. Will let you know. > > > > > > Brian McGuire > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Gordon Alton > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > Berndt and Uwe, > > > > I wonder if I could prevail upon you two to look around for a former > > > > Luftwaffe pilot for me. He is the fellow that shot down my father's > plane, > > > > on a mission to Frankfurt on Oct. 4, 1943. His plane number was > 42-3274, > > > and > > > > there were 9 POW and 1 KIA (Monson). The pilot was a 1stLt. Lloyd > Shaper. > > > > The German pilots name was/is Hauptman Evers. That day he was involved > in > > > an > > > > all out effort by the Luftwaffe, as this was one of the first deep > > > > unescorted missions deep into Germany, on Frankfurt. > > > > He was in a twin engine 110, and was with a training group II/101. > > > > Any info you could provide on him would be most appreciated. I have a > lot > > > of > > > > records already, but I would like to find out more about Hptm. Evers. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Gordy. > > > > > > > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > > > > remember those who fought to keep it." > > > > Gordon L. Alton > > > > 134 Woodland Drive > > > > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1K1 > > > > ph. 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "William Heller" > > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:13 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello from Germany > > > > > > > > > > > > > Berndt ... > > > > > > > > > > You have an anomalous situation if you are interested in BOTH the > Green > > > > Party AND > > > > > Ultralights. With the operation of Ultralights you will have to > comply > > > > with the > > > > > rules of Mother Nature, whereas with the Green Party you will have > to go > > > > against > > > > > Mother Nature. ... > > > > > > > > > > Tschuess! > > > > > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > > Bernd Schlüter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, no I have not been an anticommunist. But what I noticed > very > > > > strongly > > > > > > during my many visits to the east, was, . . . . . . . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Feb 27 23:55:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:55:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ich bin ein Berliner Message-ID: <001001c0a118$d0f24800$07194e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0A0EE.E6464780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to clear the air with respect to Kennedys' address in West Berlin. = The literal translation is correctly implied, " I am a Berliner". The = intent was to voice American solidarity with the people of West Berlin = who , at that time were an enclave of democracy surrounded by the forces = of Communism. The implication that Kennedy had made a ridiculous gaffe = was fomented by sources unknown, but was largely acceptted as fact by = many people. My thanks to Uwe, for promulgating the truth about this = speech, and its' importance to the German people. ( with that said, I feel like a Frankfurter : >Q ) Lg. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0A0EE.E6464780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to clear the air with respect to = Kennedys'=20 address in West Berlin. The literal translation is correctly = implied, " I=20 am a Berliner".  The intent was to voice American solidarity with = the=20 people of West Berlin who , at that time were an enclave of democracy = surrounded=20 by the forces of Communism.  The implication that Kennedy had made = a=20 ridiculous gaffe was fomented by sources unknown, but was largely = acceptted as=20 fact by many people.  My thanks to Uwe, for promulgating the truth = about=20 this speech, and its' importance to the German people.
(  with that said, I feel like a=20 Frankfurter  : >Q )    = Lg.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0A0EE.E6464780-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 00:26:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:26:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks Message-ID: <001b01c0a11d$1c5aa540$07194e0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A0F3.3214E0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can help me = understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what corresponding German = title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the equivalent American rank: 2nd Lt., 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col. Etc.etc. etc.,=20 and NCO on down. This info would be helpful and save me a bit of = research if you have it to share. If there are any Brits who see this = and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly = appreciated. Thanks to all who can respond. LG. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A0F3.3214E0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perhaps one of our German members, or, = one of you=20 Vets can help me understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what=20 corresponding German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the = equivalent=20 American rank:
2nd Lt.,  1st Lt., Captain, Major, = Lt. Col.,=20 Col.  Etc.etc. etc.,
and NCO on down.  This info would = be helpful=20 and save me a bit of research if you have it to share.  If there = are any=20 Brits who see this and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, that too = would be=20 greatly appreciated.  Thanks to all who can respond. =20 LG.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A0F3.3214E0A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 04:25:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:25:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Benjamin Spring Message-ID: <002401c0a13e$8aa223e0$973fafd8@e4rb0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0A0FB.7B79F700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am searching for information on my father, S/Sgt Benjamin Spring. He = was assigned to the 360th squadron and was shot down over Hamburg on = 7.25.43 in the Butch/Toots, mission 53. He was repatriated in October = of '43 due to severe injuries in a POW exchange with the British. It is = believed, but not certain, that he would have been interred in the POW = hospital in Lubeck Germany. I would love to hear from anyone who may = have known my father or had any information on him. =20 Thanks for your help Jay Primavera (Spring) ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0A0FB.7B79F700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am searching for information on my = father, S/Sgt=20 Benjamin Spring.  He was assigned to the 360th squadron and was = shot down=20 over Hamburg on 7.25.43 in the Butch/Toots, mission 53.  He was = repatriated=20 in October of '43 due to severe injuries in a POW exchange with the = British.  It is believed, but not certain, that he would have been = interred=20 in the POW hospital in Lubeck Germany.  I would love to hear from = anyone=20 who may have known my father or had any information on him.  =
Thanks for your help
Jay Primavera (Spring)
 
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0A0FB.7B79F700-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 08:11:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:11:10 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks References: <001b01c0a11d$1c5aa540$07194e0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A9CB29E.AA05AE3@newsfactory.net> --------------F8D5FB7A8E28AAD78FB72636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring / Shores: Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. Listing as follows: 1. RAF & RAAF 2.USAAF & SAAF 3. German Luftwaffe Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) = Colonel (Col.)= Oberst (Obst.) Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) = Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)= Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.) Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) = Major ( Maj.) = Major ( Maj.) Flight Lieutenant (FL) = Captain (Capt.) = Hauptmann ( Hptm.) Flying Officer ( FO) = Lieutenant (Lt.) = Oberleutnant ( Oblt.) Pilot Officer (PO) = 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) = Leutnant ( Lt.) NCOs: Warrant Officer (WO) = none equivalent Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) = ? = Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.) Sergeant ( Sgt.) = ? = Feldwebel (Fw.) ---- Corporal = ? = Unteroffizier ( Uffz.) In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter pilot when holding the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd class). Thanks for any additional info on this. Best.... Uwe Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can help me > understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what corresponding > German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the equivalent American > rank:2nd Lt., 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col. Etc.etc. > etc.,and NCO on down. This info would be helpful and save me a bit of > research if you have it to share. If there are any Brits who see this > and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks to all who can respond. LG. --------------F8D5FB7A8E28AAD78FB72636 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,

here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring / Shores: Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. Listing as follows:
1. RAF & RAAF  2.USAAF & SAAF   3. German Luftwaffe

Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) = Colonel (Col.)= Oberst (Obst.)

Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) = Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)= Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.)

Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) = Major ( Maj.) = Major ( Maj.)

Flight Lieutenant (FL) = Captain (Capt.) = Hauptmann ( Hptm.)

Flying Officer ( FO) = Lieutenant (Lt.)  = Oberleutnant ( Oblt.)

Pilot Officer (PO) = 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) = Leutnant ( Lt.)

NCOs:
Warrant Officer (WO) = none equivalent

Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) =  ?  = Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.)

Sergeant ( Sgt.) = ? = Feldwebel (Fw.)

----
Corporal = ? = Unteroffizier ( Uffz.)

In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter pilot when holding the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd class).

Thanks for any additional info on this.

Best.... Uwe

Lloyd J Grant schrieb:

Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can help me understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what corresponding German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the equivalent American rank:2nd Lt.,  1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col.  Etc.etc. etc.,and NCO on down.  This info would be helpful and save me a bit of research if you have it to share.  If there are any Brits who see this and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks to all who can respond.  LG.
--------------F8D5FB7A8E28AAD78FB72636-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 12:08:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bernd =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:08:39 +0100 (MET) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <001f01c09f7b$59fb2940$720110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3686.983362119@www33.gmx.net> Off topic: I am just watching Duna televizio, that is the Hungarian TV over satellite. I see you all sitting in your old planes. It is a most nice TV report of the development of aircrafts and rebuilding of your military mashines into civil crafts. Most nice landscapes you can see out of the cockpits of many of your mashines. Beginning with Hugo Junkers running across the wings of his Ju, a dictator passing by, you can watch the construction of your bigger transportation mashines, especially the DC4, if "haron", that is Hungarian language, means "4". Many, many details of your military allday life are shown, except of those famous cigarettes, you talked so much about. But I think, no one can estimate the real importance of the cigars to the pilots than You! You see your planes loosing their colour for being reformed into the "Electra" and Superconstallation. You see the "Comets" and "Boeings" getting their engines and see the mashines passing all the capitals of the free world... Interisting for me, the Hungarian language is aquainted anyhow with Turkish and Finnish, maybe Swedish, too. You know, in former times the real "huns", these have been the Hungarians and not the Germans, committed their "air raides" on the back of their planes (=horses) all over the old world. The range of their "mashines" was much higher then that of your P51s! France, the Huns had arrived there, is more then 10,000 miles far from China. Interesting for me is the language, too and I am joinung the university of Duesseldorf today to learn some more languages...Until now there are eight languages, in which I got knowledges, most poor like my English. Well I see now, the film was an american, available in the States, too. In the next weeks I plan to visit our fighter friend, Werner, at the Mosel river. For my mother he is only the husband of her girlfriend, but for me it is much more interesting to listen to his experiences in the wartime. Today he is constructing houses and plants for fabrication of Whine all over Germany. He is residing in an Architects dream of a house at the most nice place (Marienburg) high above the river Mosel, maybe, someone knows "Bullay", "Bitburg" and "Buechel", which is all nearby. Until a few years ago he was still active in flying his own motorized sailingplane. His interest in veterans communities of fighters is not too high, as Uwe described, too, and he has to look into one of his many books, before he can answer my technical questions. But if he meets a pilot, anywhere in the world, he is in his element...And he travels a lot today, no more lack of fuel and he speaks many languages, too. So, I have to start now to "Moenchengladbach" airport again to fix the electric starter and the GPS to the Trike now. My friend there had had a very heavy accident while starting his "Hirth" motor in his hangar and does not want to make such an experience a second time. Yesterday we made a trip around with a GPS "Magellan", I think, you all will own one of these wonderful compainions developed in your country? I think, in former times you missed it a lot... -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 16:23:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks References: <001b01c0a11d$1c5aa540$07194e0c@netzero> <3A9CB29E.AA05AE3@newsfactory.net> Message-ID: <001b01c0a1a2$b93c8920$47874d0c@netzero> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A178.CEF53DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Uwe, Thank you for the source and the information. What can I do for = you? LG.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Uwe Wiedemann=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:11 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks Lloyd,=20 here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring / Shores: = Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. Listing as follows:=20 1. RAF & RAAF 2.USAAF & SAAF 3. German Luftwaffe=20 Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) =3D Colonel (Col.)=3D Oberst (Obst.)=20 Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) =3D Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)=3D = Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.)=20 Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) =3D Major ( Maj.) =3D Major ( Maj.)=20 Flight Lieutenant (FL) =3D Captain (Capt.) =3D Hauptmann ( Hptm.)=20 Flying Officer ( FO) =3D Lieutenant (Lt.) =3D Oberleutnant ( Oblt.)=20 Pilot Officer (PO) =3D 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) =3D Leutnant ( Lt.)=20 NCOs:=20 Warrant Officer (WO) =3D none equivalent=20 Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) =3D ? =3D Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.)=20 Sergeant ( Sgt.) =3D ? =3D Feldwebel (Fw.)=20 ----=20 Corporal =3D ? =3D Unteroffizier ( Uffz.)=20 In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter pilot when = holding the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd class).=20 Thanks for any additional info on this.=20 Best.... Uwe=20 Lloyd J Grant schrieb:=20 Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can help me = understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what corresponding German = title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the equivalent American rank:2nd = Lt., 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col. Etc.etc. etc.,and NCO on = down. This info would be helpful and save me a bit of research if you = have it to share. If there are any Brits who see this and can add to it = from the RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly appreciated. Thanks = to all who can respond. LG. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A178.CEF53DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Uwe,  Thank you for the source and = the=20 information.  What can I do for you? LG. 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Uwe Wiedemann =
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, = 2001 3:11=20 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] = Corresponding=20 ranks

Lloyd,=20

here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring / = Shores:=20 Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. Listing as follows: =
1. RAF=20 & RAAF  2.USAAF & SAAF   3. German Luftwaffe=20

Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) =3D Colonel (Col.)=3D Oberst (Obst.)=20

Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) =3D Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)=3D=20 Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.)=20

Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) =3D Major ( Maj.) =3D Major ( Maj.)=20

Flight Lieutenant (FL) =3D Captain (Capt.) =3D Hauptmann ( Hptm.)=20

Flying Officer ( FO) =3D Lieutenant (Lt.)  =3D Oberleutnant ( = Oblt.)=20

Pilot Officer (PO) =3D 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) =3D Leutnant ( Lt.)=20

NCOs:
Warrant Officer (WO) =3D none equivalent=20

Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) =3D  ?  =3D Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.) =

Sergeant ( Sgt.) =3D ? =3D Feldwebel (Fw.)=20

----
Corporal =3D ? =3D Unteroffizier ( Uffz.)=20

In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter pilot when = holding=20 the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd class).=20

Thanks for any additional info on this.=20

Best.... Uwe=20

Lloyd J Grant schrieb:=20

Perhaps one of our German = members, or, one of=20 you Vets can help me understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) = what=20 corresponding German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the = equivalent=20 American rank:2nd = Lt., =20 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col.  Etc.etc.=20 etc.,and NCO on = down. =20 This info would be helpful and save me a bit of research if you have = it to=20 share.  If there are any Brits who see this and can add to it = from the=20 RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks = to all=20 who can respond.  = LG.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0A178.CEF53DE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 16:42:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:42:21 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks References: <001b01c0a11d$1c5aa540$07194e0c@netzero> <3A9CB29E.AA05AE3@newsfactory.net> <001b01c0a1a2$b93c8920$47874d0c@netzero> Message-ID: <3A9D2A6C.20C6D80D@newsfactory.net> --------------48149FDE85B5CFD6A550C750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd, you´re welcome! Best... Uwe Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > Uwe, Thank you for the source and the information. What can I do > for you? LG.----- Original Message ----- > > From: Uwe Wiedemann > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:11 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks > Lloyd, > > here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring > / Shores: Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. > Listing as follows: > 1. RAF & RAAF 2.USAAF & SAAF 3. German Luftwaffe > > Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) = Colonel (Col.)= Oberst (Obst.) > > Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) = Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)= > Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.) > > Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) = Major ( Maj.) = Major ( Maj.) > > Flight Lieutenant (FL) = Captain (Capt.) = Hauptmann ( > Hptm.) > > Flying Officer ( FO) = Lieutenant (Lt.) = Oberleutnant ( > Oblt.) > > Pilot Officer (PO) = 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) = Leutnant ( > Lt.) > > NCOs: > Warrant Officer (WO) = none equivalent > > Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) = ? = Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.) > > Sergeant ( Sgt.) = ? = Feldwebel (Fw.) > > ---- > Corporal = ? = Unteroffizier ( Uffz.) > > In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter > pilot when holding the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd > class). > > Thanks for any additional info on this. > > Best.... Uwe > > Lloyd J Grant schrieb: > > > Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can > > help me understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what > > corresponding German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have > > to the equivalent American rank:2nd Lt., 1st Lt., > > Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col. Etc.etc. etc.,and NCO on > > down. This info would be helpful and save me a bit of > > research if you have it to share. If there are any Brits > > who see this and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, > > that too would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who > > can respond. LG. > --------------48149FDE85B5CFD6A550C750 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, you´re welcome!
Best... Uwe

Lloyd J Grant schrieb:

 Uwe,  Thank you for the source and the information.  What can I do for you? LG.----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks
 Lloyd,

here are the corresponding ranks of WW II. Taken from "Ring / Shores: Fighters over the desert", a reliable source. Listing as follows:
1. RAF & RAAF  2.USAAF & SAAF   3. German Luftwaffe

Group Captain ( Gp.Capt.) = Colonel (Col.)= Oberst (Obst.)

Wing Commander (Wg.Cdr.) = Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col.)= Oberstleutnant(Obstlt.)

Squadron Leader (Sqn.Ldr.) = Major ( Maj.) = Major ( Maj.)

Flight Lieutenant (FL) = Captain (Capt.) = Hauptmann ( Hptm.)

Flying Officer ( FO) = Lieutenant (Lt.)  = Oberleutnant ( Oblt.)

Pilot Officer (PO) = 2nd Lieutenant ( 2.Lt.) = Leutnant ( Lt.)

NCOs:
Warrant Officer (WO) = none equivalent

Flight Sergeant (FSgt.) =  ?  = Oberfeldwebel ( Ofw.)

Sergeant ( Sgt.) = ? = Feldwebel (Fw.)

----
Corporal = ? = Unteroffizier ( Uffz.)

In the German Luftwaffe one could also fly as a fighter pilot when holding the rank of a Gefreiter ( Private 2nd class).

Thanks for any additional info on this.

Best.... Uwe

Lloyd J Grant schrieb:

Perhaps one of our German members, or, one of you Vets can help me understand ( from the USAAF to the Luftwaffe) what corresponding German title of rank did the Luftwaffe have to the equivalent American rank:2nd Lt.,  1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Col.  Etc.etc. etc.,and NCO on down.  This info would be helpful and save me a bit of research if you have it to share.  If there are any Brits who see this and can add to it from the RAF hierarchy, that too would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks to all who can respond.  LG.
--------------48149FDE85B5CFD6A550C750-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 17:15:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:15:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Double "V" formation, Apr 45, why and how? Message-ID: <3A9CEBF8.15065.10F9D8C@localhost> I started to ask about this once before in another context, but I have been curious as to the (what I call a) double "V" formation that was used in Apr 1945. Perhaps this would be a good question for Bill Heller, since he flew it. What I am curious about was just basically why the switch, particularly when the end was so near? Was this done for improved bombing efficiency, or for safety, or some other reason? I've discussed this formation with some B-17 pilots from another bomb group, on another mailing list, and their opinion was that it was quite difficult for the wing planes to make the turns in this formation. I am interested in how the turns were made, not only within a squadron, but also, from a picture I have, it looks like the trailing squadrons were directly behind the lead squadron, and I was curious whether all three squadrons of the group would turn at the same IP for the bomb run, or if the high and low squadrons would turn after the IP? For those not familiar with the formation I'm talking about... if you have the new CD (Great job by Mr Miller by the way), look at the formation for any of the missions in April 1945 and compare this to the regular squadron formation used in March 1945. If you don't have the CD, look at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/apr16form.jpg and compare this to http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/tpplaubrf.jpg . This double V formation consisted of 2 six plane Vs followed by a single plane. As I said, it just seems strange to switch to a new formation, that the crews might not be familiar with, when the end of the war was so near, or was this considered safer to fly? Was there any training of the crews prior to using this in combat? Thanks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 20:38:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jenne Collins) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:38:31 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Corresponding ranks Message-ID: Hi, I'm a Brit, but I can't promise to get this right! Assuming the RAF's structure hasn't changed... 2nd Lt. - Pilot Officer (P/Off) 1st Lt. - Flying Officer (F/Off) Captain - Flight Lieutenant (pronounced "Leff-tenant" of course!) Major - Squadron Leader Lt. Col.- Wing Commander Col. - Group Captain The ranks above are (I may have left one out - I'm doing it from memory) Air Commodore Air Vice Marshal Air Marshal Marshal of the Royal Air Force I am not sure exactly how the NCO ranks worked in the USAAF, but if you send me a list, I'll fit ours to yours! Hope that helps Jenne Collins _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 20:39:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jenne Collins) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:39:31 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Benjamin Spring Message-ID: Hi, I'll see what I can find for you, Regards Jenne Collins >From: Jay and Robin Primavera >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] S/Sgt Benjamin Spring >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:25:53 -0800 > >I am searching for information on my father, S/Sgt Benjamin Spring. He was >assigned to the 360th squadron and was shot down over Hamburg on 7.25.43 in >the Butch/Toots, mission 53. He was repatriated in October of '43 due to >severe injuries in a POW exchange with the British. It is believed, but >not certain, that he would have been interred in the POW hospital in Lubeck >Germany. I would love to hear from anyone who may have known my father or >had any information on him. >Thanks for your help >Jay Primavera (Spring) > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Feb 28 22:03:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:03:32 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello all References: <001f01c09f7b$59fb2940$720110ac@Betac.com> <3686.983362119@www33.gmx.net> Message-ID: <001e01c0a1d2$4c193b60$6d0110ac@Betac.com> I recall those places in the Mosel region. For many years I would drive to the Mosel and fill my car with Mosel Spatleses, my favorite wine at the time. Now prefer the Nahes (between BK and Bingen and Rockenhausen). Makes me thirsty thinking about it. Cheers. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Bernd Schlüter To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hello all > Off topic: > I am just watching Duna televizio, that is the Hungarian TV over satellite. > I see you all sitting in your old planes. It is a most nice TV report of the > development of aircrafts and rebuilding of your military mashines into civil > crafts. Most nice landscapes you can see out of the cockpits of many of your > mashines. Beginning with Hugo Junkers running across the wings of his Ju, a > dictator passing by, you can watch the construction of your bigger > transportation mashines, especially the DC4, if "haron", that is Hungarian language, > means "4". Many, many details of your military allday life are shown, except of > those famous cigarettes, you talked so much about. But I think, no one can > estimate the real importance of the cigars to the pilots than You! > You see your planes loosing their colour for being reformed into the > "Electra" and Superconstallation. You see the "Comets" and "Boeings" getting their > engines and see the mashines passing all the capitals of the free world... > Interisting for me, the Hungarian language is aquainted anyhow with Turkish > and Finnish, maybe Swedish, too. You know, in former times the real "huns", > these have been the Hungarians and not the Germans, committed their "air > raides" on the back of their planes (=horses) all over the old world. > The range of their "mashines" was much higher then that of your P51s! > France, the Huns had arrived there, is more then 10,000 miles far from > China. > Interesting for me is the language, too and I am joinung the university of > Duesseldorf today to learn some more languages...Until now there are eight > languages, in which I got knowledges, most poor like my English. > Well I see now, the film was an american, available in the States, too. > > In the next weeks I plan to visit our fighter friend, Werner, at the Mosel > river. > For my mother he is only the husband of her girlfriend, but for me it is > much more interesting to listen to his experiences in the wartime. > Today he is constructing houses and plants for fabrication of Whine all over > Germany. He is residing in an Architects dream of a house at the most nice > place (Marienburg) high above the river Mosel, maybe, someone knows "Bullay", > "Bitburg" and "Buechel", which is all nearby. Until a few years ago he was > still active in flying his own motorized sailingplane. His interest in veterans > communities of fighters is not too high, as Uwe described, too, and he has > to look into one of his many books, before he can answer my technical > questions. But if he meets a pilot, anywhere in the world, he is in his element...And > he travels a lot today, no more lack of fuel and he speaks many languages, > too. > So, I have to start now to "Moenchengladbach" airport again to fix the > electric starter and the GPS to the Trike now. My friend there had had a very > heavy accident while starting his "Hirth" motor in his hangar and does not want > to make such an experience a second time. > Yesterday we made a trip around with a GPS "Magellan", I think, you all will > own one of these wonderful compainions developed in your country? I think, > in former times you missed it a lot... > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Feb 24 08:26:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?FRANCISCO_QUI=D1ONES?=) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 04:26:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era References: <35.11851d33.27d3e00b@cs.com> <3AA28BA5.56A584C9@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <007101c09e3b$8d508f60$9a8e9840@dlinks.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C09E1A.04A47940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Heller well said ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Heller=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, Germany, & the Postwar Era John Jenkins ...=20 Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. = German soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of = Hitler, served their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our = finest allies. It is quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on = the offspring ... it is sort of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery = in the US! Both have been corrected and we should let it lie and move = forward.=20 If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do we = blame that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX = president blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years?=20 I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I = feel that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one = Hitler. We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. = Let us let it rest. And while I, for one, who will always remember the = refrain of "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on.=20 Cheers, Old buddy!=20 BILL HELLER=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:=20 I concur with Brian McGuire's comments. In order to defeat the Nazi = regime=20 of Hitler the US and Britain temporarily allied themselves with the = Soviet=20 Union. It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile Soviet allies = chose to=20 impose communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII. We naively = believed=20 the Soviets would respect the desires of the countries occupied by = the Red=20 Army. In short order it became fairly obvious what the Soviet plan = was. A=20 war with the Soviets at the close of WWII to clear them out of = Eastern Europe=20 would have been extremely unpopular. People were tired of war. = Eventually,=20 the Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the = Soviets=20 would depart Eastern Europe.=20 On the issue of bombing, I want to mention a few points. The = Germans=20 introduced this method of warfare to the world on an unprecedented = scale.=20 The places that immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, = Coventry, and=20 Warsaw. As the war progressed the US and British merely perfected = this=20 technique. The Germans could have surrendered at any time. It was = only with=20 the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in Europe. If = Hitler had=20 been dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further = destruction.=20 Incidentally, if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few = more months=20 the first atomic bomb would have detonated in Germany.=20 World War II is over, but let us not forget what happened.=20 =20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595 ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C09E1A.04A47940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill Heller
well said
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Heller
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 = 2:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] WWII, = Germany,=20 & the Postwar Era

John Jenkins  ...=20

Well said, however I feel it is time to let the bygones be bygones. = German=20 soldiers, on the most, who had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler, = served=20 their country as did we. Honorably. They are now our finest allies. It = is=20 quite wrong to blame the sins of the Fdathers on the offspring ... it = is sort=20 of like blaming ALL OF US NOW for slavery in the US!  Both have = been=20 corrected and we should let it lie and move forward.=20

If we wish to blame the German people for their past, then WHO do = we blame=20 that we, in the US, allowed a total disastrous miscreant, EX president = blowjob, to occupy our White House for eight years?=20

I had noting to do with the fact we had slavery at one time, and I = feel=20 that the German of today had nothing to do with the rise of one = Hitler. =20 We hung their perpetrators of what has been a horrid history. Let us = let it=20 rest.  And while I, for one, who will always remember the refrain = of=20 "Never Again" ... I will also ask that we move on.=20

Cheers, Old buddy!=20

BILL HELLER=20

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:=20

I concur = with Brian=20 McGuire's comments.  In order to defeat the Nazi = regime=20
of Hitler the US and Britain = temporarily=20 allied themselves with the Soviet
Union.  It is indeed unfortunate that our erstwhile = Soviet=20 allies chose to
impose=20 communism in Eastern Europe at the close of WWII.  We naively=20 believed
the = Soviets would=20 respect the desires of the countries occupied by the = Red=20
Army.  In short order it = became=20 fairly obvious what the Soviet plan was.  A =
war with the Soviets at the close of = WWII to clear=20 them out of Eastern Europe
would have been extremely unpopular.  People were = tired of=20 war.  Eventually,
the=20 Russian version of communism would die by its own hand and the=20 Soviets
would = depart=20 Eastern Europe.=20

On the issue of bombing, I = want to mention=20 a few points.  The Germans
introduced this method of warfare to the world on an = unprecedented=20 scale.
The = places that=20 immediately come to mind are Guernica, London, Coventry, = and=20
Warsaw.  As the war = progressed the=20 US and British merely perfected this
technique.  The Germans could have = surrendered=20 at any time.  It was only with
the death of Hitler that peace suddenly broke out in = Europe. =20 If Hitler had
been=20 dispatched earlier Germany might have been spared further=20 destruction.
Incidentally,=20 if the Germans had been able to hold out for a few more = months=20
the first atomic bomb would = have=20 detonated in Germany.=20

World War II is over, but let = us not=20 forget what happened.
 =20

John = A.=20 Jenkins=20

6910 Old Redmond=20 Road
Redmond, WA   = 98052  =20 USA=20

Phone (425)=20 = 885-0595

= ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C09E1A.04A47940--