From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 04:46:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 04:46:38 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Bill - Thanks for a great story. You need to write a second book, this one covering your personal experiences both in USAAF and the airlines. I suspect it would be as interesting as Arthur Whitlock's "Behind the Cockpit Door," which you own. By the way, sadly Arthur passed away this spring. We always shared a beer at the annual Guild of Aviation Artists annual show in London, and of course he did a painting for me. A good friend. He really had some stories. The early (post-WWII) airline growth had some interesting sagas. Brian McGuire >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:25:21 -0800 > >Bill Hoyt ... > >Your treatise is very touching and very well said. > >We, too, grew up in the great depression, and it WAS a great depression. >When >you see grown men, with families at home, searching garbage bins ... you >get a >sick feeling. > >In our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were >fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was >requested, >by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did not yet have >FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to feed FIVE families. >For >$5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which would take care of a >family of >four. Dad fed FIVE families. I sometimes went with Dad as he distributed >these >grocery orders. I went to school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES! > >My Dad demanded that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make a >difference in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say >nasty >things. > >When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for dinner last >night?" ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked Mom to serve such >things as >bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and other dishes which were well >known in >the depression era. > >We even had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era >... >but we saw it all around us. > >But, to add poignant stories, I have one ... to wit. > >After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in various places in the world >in >my post war career as an airline pilot ... at one time we lived in Rome, >Italy >for 6 years. Upon finally returning home to live in my old home town for a >spell, we had to buy a house. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and I >went to a relatively new Appliance Store and bought many things, including >a >Refrigerator. Washer and Dryer. Stove.Television, and other smaller >appliances. > >The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our new house. >Fine. > >We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one day I stopped by the >Appliance >Store and asked for the Owner or Manager. Upon introduction, I asked why I >never got my bill, there must be some mistake and I want to pay it. > >The Owner sat me down in his "office" and he said, "Bill, you do not know >me, >do you?" I told him I did not except that now I knew he owned this store. >Then >he said, "Bill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO >YEARS >during the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill and >WILL >GET NO BILL?" > >This reduced me to tears. > >And THAT is one of my memories of a great depression where American >families >deported themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW. > >Now, let's go get those terrorists! > >Cheers! > >WCH > >hoytwma2 wrote: > > > I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held >responsible to > > some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. > > I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went >thru. > > They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive >and > > my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, >she > > got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. > > This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you >guys > > went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, >but > > for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very > > grateful. > > These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools which > > help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all >of > > you. May God bless > > > > Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crew > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 05:38:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:38:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] teach our children Message-ID: <003301c17a2a$68fe5cc0$517ae03f@hoytwma2> Wonderful story Mr. Heller, thank you very much. Your Father sounds like he was the kind of man that, if we all tried just a little bit to be like him - then maybe we wouldn't be having the problems in our society like we are now. There must have been many Blessings received for the unselfishness of your Fathers heart, ones that will continue to touch peoples lives for a very long time. Thanks again Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 06:16:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:16:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <73.16f78857.2939cfa6@aol.com> Friend Gary, I suppose the First Pilot (or tail gunner) could recommend a copilot for first pilot but I don't think the was the procedure very often. I would believe it would be the Operations Officer and maybe the Commanding Officer. They could very well talk it over with each other and maybe talk to the First pilot and even some of the other crew members. The Operations Officer would give him a check ride and see how he did for sure. We had some copilots that were very good pilots and some First Pilots that in my opinion should have been washed out in preflight. I hope you get an answer to this one from Bill Heeler. He has had first hand experience with this but is not very opinionated so he might not say anything. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 18:12:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:12:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice bombs Message-ID: <000901c17a93$c1eb77a0$0bbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 2 From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:52:17 EST =20 I'm not sure if we ever dropped a live bomb in training for sure. I = seem to remember=20 we did though. Our practice bomb were little blue fellows filled with = 100=20 pounds of sand. I think some if not all of them had a little charge in = them=20 so we could see a bit of smoke when they landed.=20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= +++++ Don't see a response to this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth. JACK R.---You are right about the "little blue fellows". If memory = serves me correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 lb. black powder = charge in the fin {vane} end of the bomb. I took basic Victorville AAF = base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 PM Aug 6, '42] The latter part of my stay was = as a guard. I was never posted on lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys = bunking near me was.. I wa on the water system out post and later the = bomb sight vault. They had BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s [ basic = multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the glide angle of a brick].They = used AT-7s and AT-11 for navigator and bombadier training. They also had = a hanger with a map on the floor and a traveling platform with a Norden = bomb sight mounted on it.Never saw it - just heard abouit it.---Maurice = Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Message:=20 2
 From: Jprencher@aol.com
 Date: = Fri, 30 Nov=20 2001 01:52:17 EST
 
I'm not sure if we ever dropped a = live bomb in=20 training for sure.  I seem to remember 
we did though. Our = practice=20 bomb were little blue fellows filled with 100 
pounds of sand. I = think=20 some if not all of them had a little charge in them 
so we could = see a=20 bit of smoke when they landed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++++
Don't see a = response to=20 this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth.
 
JACK R.---You are right about the = "little blue=20 fellows". If memory serves me correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 = lb.=20 black powder charge in the fin {vane} end of the bomb. I took=20 basic Victorville AAF base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 PM Aug 6, = '42] =20 The latter part of my stay was as a = guard. I was=20 never posted on lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys bunking = near me=20 was.. I wa on the water system out post and later the bomb sight vault. = They had=20 BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s [ basic multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the = glide=20 angle of a brick].They used AT-7s and = AT-11 for=20 navigator and bombadier training. They also had a hanger with a map on = the floor=20 and a traveling platform with a Norden bomb sight mounted on it.Never = saw it -=20 just heard abouit it.---Maurice Paulk
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 12:48:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Smith) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 12:48:23 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011201124329.009ec290@pop.freeserve.net> Dear Sirs, I am a Doctoral student at the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. As a part of my thesis I am looking into the writing of messages on bombs before they were dropped (so-called 'bomb art'). I was hoping to enlist the help of yourselves and your members in this project. The questions I specifically need to answer are as follows: 1. Was the writing of messages on bombs common? 2. What sort of messages were written? 3. Was the writing of messages carried out by aircrew ground crew or both? 4. What do you think was the purpose of the writing of messages when the enemy was unlikely to read them? I am sure you get a lot of requests of this nature but I would be most grateful if you could spare the time to consider this one. Any responses, suggestions or abuse would be welcome by email or any other form of communication. My contact details are listed below. Many thanks. Yours David Smith PhD Student Department of International Politics University of Wales Penglais, Aberystwyth Wales, SY23 3DA email: dss97@aber.ac.uk or davidsnsmith@hotmail.com Tel. +44 (0)1970 623111 ext. 4185 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:26:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans.reusink) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:26:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CHRISTMASTIME Message-ID: <001f01c17ac7$eda9e6e0$8c7e79c3@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DEAR WILLIAM.(HELLER) THANK YOU FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL CHRISTMAS STORY (THE BEST I EVER HEARD) iT GOT RIGHT TO MY ROTTEN HEART (BECAUSE I AM ON THE WAITINGLIST FOR MY = THIRD HEARTSURGERY. MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE STRESS YOU ARE UNDER YOU REACT = KIND OF=20 UNSTABLE. I REMEMBER THE WORLDWAR 2 (THE ONE WE WON) WANT TO TELL YOU WILLIAM, WHEN WE SAW THE VAPOURTRAILES OF THE B17 (OUR = LADY) I FELL IN LOVE AS A BOY OFTWELFE YEARS OLD. WHY I TELL YOU THAT, IS THE FACT, THAT I CAN PERSONALLY FEEL, HOW YOU = FELT BEING WITH YOUR DAD AND HOW YOU HAD TO BEHAVE AS A BOY WILLIAM, YOU = TOUCHED MY HEART=20 AND GAVE ME THE OLD CHRISTMAS FEELING. THANK YOU FOR THAT. MERRY CHRISMAS TO YOU ALL FROM HANS REUSINK. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
DEAR = WILLIAM.(HELLER)
THANK YOU FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL CHRISTMAS = STORY (THE=20 BEST I EVER HEARD)
iT GOT RIGHT TO MY ROTTEN HEART (BECAUSE = I AM ON=20 THE WAITINGLIST FOR MY THIRD HEARTSURGERY. MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE STRESS = YOU ARE=20 UNDER YOU REACT KIND OF
UNSTABLE.
I REMEMBER THE WORLDWAR 2 (THE ONE WE=20 WON)
WANT TO TELL YOU WILLIAM, WHEN WE SAW = THE=20 VAPOURTRAILES OF THE B17 (OUR LADY)
I FELL IN LOVE AS A BOY OFTWELFE YEARS=20 OLD.
WHY I TELL YOU THAT, IS THE FACT, THAT I = CAN=20 PERSONALLY FEEL, HOW YOU FELT BEING WITH YOUR DAD AND HOW YOU HAD TO = BEHAVE AS A=20 BOY WILLIAM, YOU TOUCHED MY HEART
AND GAVE ME THE OLD CHRISTMAS=20 FEELING.
THANK YOU FOR = THAT.
MERRY CHRISMAS TO YOU ALL FROM HANS=20 REUSINK.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:30:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:30:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: jack pilot named??? HEELER???? really. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:55:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CHRISTMASTIME Message-ID: <30.1ebd7b3d.293ad5ed@aol.com> bill heller. send me that christmas story that is being grandly appreciated. thanks. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 01:03:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 01:03:34 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice bombs Message-ID: <20011202010335.ULIX941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Maurice, you are correct. We did train in AT-11's. That traveling platform you referenced, was a great training tool. The target on the floor also moved. I was called the "bug". The challenge was to maneuver the moving platform over the moving target and hit the bills-eye at bombs away. A plunger would strike the target and leave a dot at the point of impact. The paper target on the bug was much like those we used to shoot at with BB guns as a kid. Bill Runnels, bombardier > Message: 2 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:52:17 EST > > I'm not sure if we ever dropped a live bomb in training for sure. I seem to > remember > we did though. Our practice bomb were little blue fellows filled with 100 > pounds of sand. I think some if not all of them had a little charge in them > so we could see a bit of smoke when they landed. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Don't see a response to this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth. > > JACK R.---You are right about the "little blue fellows". If memory serves me > correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 lb. black powder charge in the fin > {vane} end of the bomb. I took basic Victorville AAF base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 > PM Aug 6, '42] The latter part of my stay was as a guard. I was never posted on > lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys bunking near me was.. I wa on the water > system out post and later the bomb sight vault. They had BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s > [ basic multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the glide angle of a brick].They > used AT-7s and AT-11 for navigator and bombadier training. They also had a > hanger with a map on the floor and a traveling platform with a Norden bomb sight > mounted on it.Never saw it - just heard abouit it.---Maurice Paulk > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 06:32:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:32:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <130.5945882.293b24fb@aol.com> David Smith. My observations only. !. Where I was writing on bombs was not common. We didn't have time 2. Wise cracks. Attempts at humor. Insults to the enemy maybe 3. Both maybe but mostly ground crews I'd believe. 4. A subconscious effort to strike back maybe. Pastime, waiting for the flying crews to get there. A hedge against boredom. Best Wishes, Jack Recher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 06:41:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:41:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <30.1eb9f97b.293b272f@aol.com> IBSPEC, Sorry about Getting Heller and Heeler mixed up. Must have been sleepy or awake. Hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. They were both quite the pilots, No doubt. Jaak From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 10:01:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:01:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice Bombs Message-ID: <002801c17b19$3129b3e0$14e8fc3e@o7b6a3> All this talk about practice bombs has reminded me of another yarn I heard from the late Dick (Pop) McGilvray. You will no doubt recall Dick was the author of the story about the dead cow that was allegedly dropped over Germany, from a B-17 of the 303rdBG! I know that particular story got you all in a lather, so I am sure taking a risk in relating this one. However, I do so just in case someone out there remembers the incident and can verify it! I would hate to think my very dear, and much-missed friend, Dick, told me all untruths. The story goes that there was a rather large manor house close by to Molesworth, at which the local gentry were holding a wartime, summer-afternoon garden party. It seems that the crew of one or other of the 303rd's aircraft decided it would be fun to 'buzz' the garden-gathering, with a low run over it, before peeling off to make their landing at the nearby airfield. Obviously, such antics caused much alarm and did not go down at all well with the lord of the manor, who protested to the Molesworth administration, in no uncertain manner, as only the English gentry can. Not at all pleased with the response to his protestations (although I am sure the American C.O. was totally polite in his response), the lord of the manor mentioned his annoyance to some high-ranking officer in the RAF and who obviously had enough clout to do something about it. A few days later, it is alleged, a low flying aircraft (of unknown type) from the RAF approached the largest hanger at Molesworth and proceeded to 'drop' a large sack of flour through the roof of said hanger! Now that's the story as it was told to me, by Dick McGilvray, during a BBC radio interview I had with him in the mid 1980's. So please enlighten me. Is there any element of truth in this story or was Dick letting his imagination run riot once again? Over to you guys who were there at the time. Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 10:11:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 02:11:51 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C09FE67.2D038084@attglobal.net> IBSPEC ... I wish I could understand what you write ... Cheers! WCH IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > jack pilot named??? HEELER???? really. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 16:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: <30.1eb9f97b.293b272f@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c17b4e$18d592c0$58e8fc3e@o7b6a3> First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. Regards Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 19:16:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:16:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: History Channel Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A6FE@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello All, It's amazing when the topic of "Today's Generation" and the History Channel are discussed here, "Your Generation" is very lucky to have such a permanent and detailed monument to all of your accomplishments and sacrifices. Luckily WW II (One of a few WE WON) had the timing in our long history to be documented on film in both print and video, sometimes in COLOR! As a kid I remember WW II as the "Same old" B&W images from Twelve O'clock High used by everyone, and the Victory at Sea series of TV shows. It wasn't till I built that Plastic Revel B-17 back in the early 70's that I started to hear a "personal" account of what war was all about. Now in the last decade an amazing array of WW II footage is being shown, I think the Color film and footage really makes the younger generation realize your War was really not that far in the past. Now think about the other Veterans... lets say of WW I (We won that one too) all they have is some grainy B&W silent film of troops running "way too fast" across a battlefield and a little flying footage, the rest is all Hollywood's spin on things, and that leads me to Vietnam... Hollywood and Press butchered that War... Nuff said! And the veterans of Korea (Not done there yet) almost NO coverage of that conflict even though it was our longest "war" Baby Boomer's all over my town and others nearby live on streets dedicated to them, and don't even have a clue! The Civil War (We tied) those veterans have some glass plate negatives, and The Revolution (We beat Mom and Dad) only has an "artists" rendering of what it was like. Visit the cemeteries today and you can't even read the headstones :( Sure there are some great documentaries covering all the conflicts I mentioned out there, but very little "Personal" experience like the WW II veterans have been able to give us. Think of the veterans out there today, they will pull out a videotape of CNN footage to show there kids what the "Gulf War" and Afghanistan was like, we tend to sterilize conflicts these days... but you guys really know what these guys are going through. My point is in History WW II will most likely be the best documented conflict in History, It will leave a lasting "Proper" record of "How it was". Look at how the Children keep your Aircraft in Factory Fresh condition, including tanks, jeeps, and hundreds of other artifacts to show the Children of the future. And they can pop in a CD and hop in a virtual P-51 or B-17 and fly a mission today! The Greatest Generation will no doubt have the Greatest Collection! I cherish the fact I have been able to walk among the Giants that you guys are and soak up all the history that flows when you gather, your ranks are thinner but there's a bunch of us out there who will make sure you sacrifices and accomplishments are never forgotten. *** Today's Generation *** Todd (303rd member A--637) ~~~ Stepping off the soapbox ~~~ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 18:39:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:39:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011201124329.009ec290@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: on 12/1/01 7:48 AM, David Smith at dss97@aber.ac.uk wrote: >As bombardier on Fink's Crew, I sometimes added a casual insult or unflattering cartoon to one of the bombs hanging in the bay. This was done while I was arming the little beauties as they hung in the bomb racks...at altitude approaching the enemy coast (about 12,000 ft). Arming the bombs was accomplished by screwing in the fuse and threading a safety wire in the shackle. Strictly a morale-booster, once the bombs left the aircraft only the devil himself could read them. Cheers, good luck on your research! Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 01:03:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:03:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice Bombs References: <002801c17b19$3129b3e0$14e8fc3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <3C0ACF7E.B14717A3@attglobal.net> Ray ... There's an old saying about Pop McGilvrary ... and it goes, with tongue in cheek .... "If Pop said it, it MUST be true!' PS: I will attempt IMMEDIATELY to retrieve that story and YES, you MAY use it once I get it to you. Cheers! WCH ray cossey wrote: > All this talk about practice bombs has reminded me of another yarn I heard > from the late Dick (Pop) McGilvray. You will no doubt recall Dick was the > author of the story about the dead cow that was allegedly dropped over > Germany, from a B-17 of the 303rdBG! I know that particular story got you > all in a lather, so I am sure taking a risk in relating this one. However, I > do so just in case someone out there remembers the incident and can verify > it! I would hate to think my very dear, and much-missed friend, Dick, told > me all untruths. > > The story goes that there was a rather large manor house close by to > Molesworth, at which the local gentry were holding a wartime, > summer-afternoon garden party. It seems that the crew of one or other of the > 303rd's aircraft decided it would be fun to 'buzz' the garden-gathering, > with a low run over it, before peeling off to make their landing at the > nearby airfield. > > Obviously, such antics caused much alarm and did not go down at all well > with the lord of the manor, who protested to the Molesworth administration, > in no uncertain manner, as only the English gentry can. Not at all pleased > with the response to his protestations (although I am sure the American C.O. > was totally polite in his response), the lord of the manor mentioned his > annoyance to some high-ranking officer in the RAF and who obviously had > enough clout to do something about it. > > A few days later, it is alleged, a low flying aircraft (of unknown type) > from the RAF approached the largest hanger at Molesworth and proceeded to > 'drop' a large sack of flour through the roof of said hanger! > > Now that's the story as it was told to me, by Dick McGilvray, during a BBC > radio interview I had with him in the mid 1980's. So please enlighten me. Is > there any element of truth in this story or was Dick letting his imagination > run riot once again? Over to you guys who were there at the time. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 03:22:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 03:22:27 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this Recher. Cheers! Brian M >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > >Regards > > >Ray Cossey > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 04:03:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:03:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <12c.8997d40.293c5399@aol.com> Deer Frnd Rae, Aye no hough two spill sum wurds end sume aye doent n sum tymes aye em gust sleepie. sorrie, Jaak From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 07:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C0B2C35.F69C4ADB@attglobal.net> Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be the FOURTH. Cheers! WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > Recher. > > Cheers! > > Brian M > > >From: "ray cossey" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > >Regards > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 08:30:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:30:52 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Heller, i read your letter, and was touched by what you had to say ab= out that era. Though i am only thirty nine years old, my dad was born and grew up durin= g that time. There is nothing special about that, as many of you who contribute to thi= s forum also exerienced this moment in Americas history. The thing that i= saw in your letter, and those that came before, was the standerd of the = common individgual of that day. My dad was born in Pearson Georgia in 1932. Both of his parents had died = before he was 18 months old and he was the youngest of seven children. T= hough he had a brother, and at least two sisters who were grown and marri= ed, it was a hard time for anyone living in south Georgia in those days, = so he was shuffled from one reletive to another during most of his youth.= By the age of seven he was already doing the work of a grown man in exch= ange for the clothes that the other children of the house hold had out gr= own, his meals, and the once a week trip to town, when he would get .25 c= ents to spend. I remember as he told it, he would drink as much water as he could hold, = so that he could make a coke last a long time, and with the other .20 cen= ts he could watch a movie and get a bag of popcorn. My dad instilled in m= e, with these stories of his early life, A strong since of value, and res= pect. He died two years ago, And it is to the memory of the greatest man = that i have ever known that i share this, and to the greatest genaration = in our nations history, That i pay tribute. Never let your children, or y= our grand children forget. God Bless. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:37 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Bill Hoyt ... Your treatise is very touching and very well said. We, too, grew up in the great depression, and it WAS a great depression. = When you see grown men, with families at home, searching garbage bins ... you = get a sick feeling. In our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was reques= ted, by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did not yet ha= ve FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to feed FIVE familie= s. For $5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which would take care of a fam= ily of four. Dad fed FIVE families. I sometimes went with Dad as he distributed= these grocery orders. I went to school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES! My Dad demanded that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make= a difference in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say na= sty things. When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for dinner last night?" ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked Mom to serve such thi= ngs as bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and other dishes which were well kn= own in the depression era. We even had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era= ... but we saw it all around us. But, to add poignant stories, I have one ... to wit. After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in various places in the wor= ld in my post war career as an airline pilot ... at one time we lived in Rome, = Italy for 6 years. Upon finally returning home to live in my old home town for = a spell, we had to buy a house. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and= I went to a relatively new Appliance Store and bought many things, includin= g a Refrigerator. Washer and Dryer. Stove.Television, and other smaller appliances. The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our new house. F= ine. We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one day I stopped by the Appli= ance Store and asked for the Owner or Manager. Upon introduction, I asked why = I never got my bill, there must be some mistake and I want to pay it. The Owner sat me down in his "office" and he said, "Bill, you do not know= me, do you?" I told him I did not except that now I knew he owned this store= . Then he said, "Bill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO YE= ARS during the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill an= d WILL GET NO BILL?" This reduced me to tears. And THAT is one of my memories of a great depression where American famil= ies deported themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW. Now, let's go get those terrorists! Cheers! WCH hoytwma2 wrote: > I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held responsib= le to > some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. > I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went th= ru. > They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive= and > my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, s= he > got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. > This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you = guys > went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, b= ut > for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very > grateful. > These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools whic= h > help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all= of > you. May God bless > > Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crewGet more fro= m the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Heller, i = read your letter, and was touched by what you had to say about that = era.
Though i am only thirty nine years old, my dad was born a= nd grew up during that time.
There is nothing special about th= at, as many of you who contribute to this forum also exerienced this= moment in Americas history. The thing that i saw in your letter, and tho= se that came before, was the standerd of the common individgual of that d= ay.
My dad was born in Pearson Georgia in 1932. Both of his pa= rents had died before he was 18 months old and  he was the youngest = of seven children. Though he had a brother, and at least two sisters who = were grown and married, it was a hard time for anyone living in south Geo= rgia in those days, so he was shuffled from one reletive to another durin= g most of his youth. By the age of seven he was already doing the work of= a grown man in exchange for the clothes that the other children of the h= ouse hold had out grown, his meals, and the once a week trip to town, whe= n he would get .25 cents to spend.
I remember as he told it, h= e would drink as much water as he could hold, so that he could make a cok= e last a long time, and with the other .20 cents he could watch a movie a= nd get a bag of popcorn. My dad instilled in me, with these stories of hi= s early life, A strong since of value, and respect. He died two year= s ago, And it is to the memory of the greatest man that i have ever known= that i share this, and to the greatest genaration in our nations history= , That i pay tribute. Never let your children, or your grand children for= get.  God Bless.
 
----- = Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:37 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subjec= t)
 
Bill Hoyt ...

Your treatise is very touc= hing and very well said.

We, too, grew up in the great depression,= and it WAS a great depression. When
you see grown men, with families = at home, searching garbage bins ... you get a
sick feeling.

In = our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were
= fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was reques= ted,
by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did no= t yet have
FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to fee= d FIVE families. For
$5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which = would take care of a family of
four.  Dad fed FIVE families. I so= metimes went with Dad as he distributed these
grocery orders. I went t= o school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES!

My Dad demanded = that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make a
difference= in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say nasty
thi= ngs.

When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for= dinner last
night?"  ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked = Mom to serve such things as
bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and = other dishes which were well known in
the depression era.

We ev= en had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era ...<= BR>but we saw it all around us.

But, to add poignant stories, I ha= ve one ... to wit.

After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in= various places in the world in
my post war career as an airline pilot= ... at one time we lived in Rome, Italy
for 6 years. Upon finally ret= urning home to live in my old home town for a
spell, we had to buy a h= ouse. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and I
went to a relative= ly new Appliance Store and bought many things, including a
Refrigerato= r. Washer and Dryer.  Stove.Television, and other smaller
applian= ces.

The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our = new house. Fine.

We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one da= y I stopped by the Appliance
Store and asked for the Owner or Manager.= Upon introduction, I asked why I
never got my bill, there must be som= e mistake and I want to pay it.

The Owner sat me down in his "offi= ce" and he said, "Bill, you do not know me,
do you?"  I told him = I did not except that now I knew he owned this store. Then
he said, "B= ill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO YEARS
duri= ng the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill and WI= LL
GET NO BILL?"

This reduced me to tears.

And THAT is o= ne of my memories of a great depression where American families
deport= ed themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW.

Now, = let's go get those terrorists!

Cheers!

WCH

hoytwma2 = wrote:

> I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all = be held responsible to
> some degree for what our kids have or have= nt learned. About anything.
> I dont think my parents wanted me to = know of the hardships they went thru.
> They sheltered us. My Dad w= ould never talk of the war when he was alive and
> my Mom today mak= es like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, she
> got an = orange in her stocking at Christmas.
> This forum which serves to e= nlighten people like myself as to what you guys
> went thru has lef= t me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, but
> for the = Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very
> g= rateful.
> These things in turn help me in raising my children. And= any tools which
> help me to raise my children are most valuable a= nd for that I thank all of
> you. May God bless
>
> Bil= l Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt  nav 360th Fredericks crew


=

Get more from the Web. FR= EE MSN Explorer download : http://exp= lorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 11:41:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:41:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks Message-ID: <17b.19f80c.293cbef6@aol.com> --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 14:16:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: History Channel In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A6FE@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: on 12/2/01 2:16 PM, Hollritt, Todd at todd.hollritt@attws.com wrote: > Hello All, > It's amazing when the topic of "Today's Generation" and the History > Channel are discussed here, "Your Generation" is very lucky to have such a > permanent and detailed monument to all of your accomplishments and > sacrifices. Luckily WW II (One of a few WE WON) had the timing in our long > history to be documented on film in both print and video, sometimes in > COLOR! As a kid I remember WW II as the "Same old" B&W images from Twelve > O'clock High used by everyone, and the Victory at Sea series of TV shows. It > wasn't till I built that Plastic Revel B-17 back in the early 70's that I > started to hear a "personal" account of what war was all about. Now in the > last decade an amazing array of WW II footage is being shown, I think the > Color film and footage really makes the younger generation realize your War > was really not that far in the past. > Now think about the other Veterans... lets say of WW I (We won that one > too) all they have is some grainy B&W silent film of troops running "way too > fast" across a battlefield and a little flying footage, the rest is all > Hollywood's spin on things, and that leads me to Vietnam... Hollywood and > Press butchered that War... Nuff said! And the veterans of Korea (Not done > there yet) almost NO coverage of that conflict even though it was our > longest "war" Baby Boomer's all over my town and others nearby live on > streets dedicated to them, and don't even have a clue! The Civil War (We > tied) those veterans have some glass plate negatives, and The Revolution (We > beat Mom and Dad) only has an "artists" rendering of what it was like. Visit > the cemeteries today and you can't even read the headstones :( Sure there > are some great documentaries covering all the conflicts I mentioned out > there, but very little "Personal" experience like the WW II veterans have > been able to give us. Think of the veterans out there today, they will pull > out a videotape of CNN footage to show there kids what the "Gulf War" and > Afghanistan was like, we tend to sterilize conflicts these days... but you > guys really know what these guys are going through. > My point is in History WW II will most likely be the best documented > conflict in History, It will leave a lasting "Proper" record of "How it > was". Look at how the Children keep your Aircraft in Factory Fresh > condition, including tanks, jeeps, and hundreds of other artifacts to show > the Children of the future. And they can pop in a CD and hop in a virtual > P-51 or B-17 and fly a mission today! > The Greatest Generation will no doubt have the Greatest Collection! I > cherish the fact I have been able to walk among the Giants that you guys are > and soak up all the history that flows when you gather, your ranks are > thinner but there's a bunch of us out there who will make sure you > sacrifices and accomplishments are never forgotten. *** Today's Generation > *** > > Todd (303rd member A--637) > > ~~~ Stepping off the soapbox ~~~ > > > Thanks for those very kind words, Todd....and all manner of Holiday Greetings to you and yours. I stumbled across a statistic in reading "THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training...poor blokes who applied their all in an effort to fly and bought the farm instead. Think of it...according to Ambrose, there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 whose hopes were dashed the hard way. I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, but happy I made it as a bombardier. Take care....Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 15:33:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (meurs.john) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:33:35 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two a/c lost on November 26, 1944. Message-ID: <01c17c0f$df7624a0$3e5c03d5@meurs> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Reader, When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in nazi-occupied Holland a = B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. That was = November 26, 1944. Two of the crew members were killed by German soldiers when they were = descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the crash, = the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street = as we did. A couple of months ago we were connected to internet and I started my = research concerning the background of "my" B-17. Since then I've come in = contact with two members of the crew and obtained from Maxwell AFB a = film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day. Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission of = November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission. 303rd Bg lost two a/c that day: =20 # 42-07691, Pilot Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW. =20 # 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, crashed at Kalldorf (Germany), 9 POW. I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew = members: >From the Healy Crew: Pilot: Richard F. Healy Co-Pilot: Wallace.W. Walstein Top-Turret: Joseph J. Robertson Radio/Gunner: Philip E. Smith >From the Jameson crew: =20 Navigator: Maurie S. McDade Bombardier: Ferdinand P. Heavers Top-Turret. Glenn W. Hall =20 I would highly appreciate receiving the whereabouts of these crew = members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact them = directly and to learn more about that particular day in their lives. =20 Target for that day had been the Altenbeken railroad viaduct. During the = whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this vital viaduct without = damaging it seriously. =20 Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission and could tell me his = impression? =20 I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my mother tongue. =20 I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation in this matter. =20 john Meurs Im Gubel 5=20 CH-8630 Rueti ZH=20 Switzerland. e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = Reader,

When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in = nazi-occupied=20 Holland a B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. = That=20 was November 26, 1944.

Two of the crew members were killed by German = soldiers when=20 they were descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the = crash,=20 the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch=20 underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street as we = did.

A couple of months ago we were connected to internet = and I=20 started my research concerning the background of "my" B-17. = Since then=20 I've come in contact with two members of the crew and obtained from = Maxwell AFB=20 a film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day.

Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission = of=20 November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission.

 303rd Bg=20 lost two a/c that day:
 
# 42-07691, Pilot=20 Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near=20 Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW.
 
# 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, = crashed at=20 Kalldorf  (Germany), 9 POW.
 
I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew=20 members:
 
From the Healy Crew:
Pilot:          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;=20 Richard F. Healy
Co-Pilot:          = ;       =20 Wallace.W. Walstein
Top-Turret:         &nb= sp;  =20 Joseph J. Robertson
Radio/Gunner:        Philip E.=20 Smith
 
From the Jameson crew:   
Navigator:         &nbs= p;     =20 Maurie S. McDade
Bombardier:         &nb= sp;  =20 Ferdinand P. Heavers
Top-Turret.        &= nbsp;      =20 Glenn W. Hall
 
I would highly appreciate receiving the = whereabouts of=20 these crew members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact = them=20 directly and to learn more about that particular day in their=20 lives.
 
Target for that day had been the Altenbeken = railroad=20 viaduct. During the whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this = vital=20 viaduct without damaging it seriously.
 
Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission = and could=20 tell me his impression?
 
I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my = mother=20 tongue.
 
I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation = in this=20 matter.
 
john Meurs
Im Gubel 5 
CH-8630 Rueti ZH 
Switzerland.        =    =20 e-mail  meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 16:03:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:03:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: bill ,i saw a member saying he liked your story and that is what i am asking of you. did i mistake the content of that members remarks. anyhow, thanks for responding. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 21:31:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:31:28 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks References: <17b.19f80c.293cbef6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0BEF30.11620B8@attglobal.net> --------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! A great barracks mate. Cheers! WCH Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > To All, > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got > my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an > AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around > 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd > as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot > and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an > operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that > funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, > huh?. > cheers, > Bill Bergeron --------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron
--------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 22:18:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:18:50 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ? and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill BergeronGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://= explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
would like to = hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?<= /DIV>
and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Hell= er
Sent: Monday, December 03= , 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-tal= k@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: = [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great= barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote= :

To All,
L= et me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my w= ings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead= stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and = was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A f= ew months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up w= ith 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That= 's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just = fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron

Get more from the Web. FREE M= SN Explorer download : http://explore= r.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 04:37:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 04:37:21 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: Good grief! Mea culpa. What were the second and third? Did they cover your time with the 303rd? And, of course, where can one purchase them? Cheers. CU in Missouri. Brian >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 > >Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I >expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, >Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. > >Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I >should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be >the >FOURTH. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Brian McGuire wrote: > > > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > > Recher. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Brian M > > > > >From: "ray cossey" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task >for > > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. >I > > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you >did. > > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > > > >Regards > > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 06:27:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:27:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0C6CD6.DE6E07E9@attglobal.net> --------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a D9 and a pony? WCH Jay Haskins wrote: > would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s > stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot > status-rermarks > And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! > A great barracks mate. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > > To All, > > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks > > before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one > > week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth > > Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was > > completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a > > copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first > > pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were > > combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I > > made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag > > just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. > > cheers, > > Bill Bergeron > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
--------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 18:10:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:10:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" Message-ID: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the = number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in = primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the = results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that = it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the = crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to = the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds = Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob Hand = Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 = 09:16:16=20 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by = Stephen=20 Ambrose...had to do with the number of
 fatalities incurred in = pilot=20 training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 = in
 advanced for a total of 3502 ...  Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 = fatal crashes=20 on flat-beds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It = was=20 definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at=20 Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot = bar.
....I  had=20 a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the=20 infamous
Ishihara = Test,  .....    This=20 one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a = pilots=20 joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
 
The nosey one from Nebraska - = Maurice=20 Paulk.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 20:04:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:04:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C0D2C50.26992F56@attglobal.net> BMcG ... One was "Mr. President" ... now out of print. It made "Book Of The Week" in new England in 1981. But, it was HORRIBLY written, though a very good plot. The other was a manuscriipt about the Holocaust and my memories of my time in WW#2 (the one we won) .. during my airline flying days ... and the memories through my flying days in post war Europe. Due to political nuances at the time, it was never published because I withdrew it on my own from the publisher. It would not have been PC, shall we say. Then there were several articles in various InFlight magazines and another treatise on the Jet Lag Myth. My AIRLINE SAFETY: A VIEW FROM THE COCKPIT ... it is still handled by Amazon.com ... (thought it, too, is out of print) ... in fact I have a small royalty check on my desk which might buy a deep dish martini or two ... so very few of those come in anymore. The biggest joy in writing a book, is getting YOUR thoughts down on paper with the knowledge that OTHERS may read them and even may be really interested in what you write. But, it IS a chore. Building the characters is the largest job. Cheers! Hope to see you an Branson in 2002 ... WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Good grief! Mea culpa. What were the second and third? Did they cover your > time with the 303rd? And, of course, where can one purchase them? > > Cheers. CU in Missouri. > > Brian > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 > > > >Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I > >expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, > >Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. > > > >Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I > >should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be > >the > >FOURTH. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Brian McGuire wrote: > > > > > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > > > Recher. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Brian M > > > > > > >From: "ray cossey" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > > > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > > > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task > >for > > > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > > > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. > >I > > > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > > > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you > >did. > > > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > > > > > >Regards > > > > > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 23:25:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:25:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <88.103de496.293eb578@aol.com> bill ,i have contemplated. each moment i then realize it has to be a full time thinking committment to get it done promptly and worthy. cheers. spec. oh! mine could not have the wwII (THE ONE WE WON) experiences you had. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 12:42:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:42:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City. Those ghastly figures on pilot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide. The Ishihara test consisted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted number or letter. For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connected to make it a number 8. If this sounds screwy it probably is. They still use it, I think, in flight physicals. Anyway, I tried it rested, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass. Maybe it saved me a fate worse than...who knows? Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunnery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and another 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents around the base. Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't feet first. Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote:

Bob Hand Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do= with the number of
fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in prim= ary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in
advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was thi= s nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-b= eds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a= pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of th= e Blue Spot bar.
....I  had a rough time in not qualifying fo= r pilot training, thanks to the infamous
Ishihara Test,  .....    This one has aroused my cur= iousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice = Paulk.


Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City.  Those ghastly figures on pi= lot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide.  The Ishihara test cons= isted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted numbe= r or letter.  For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connecte= d to make it a number 8.  If this sounds screwy it probably is.  T= hey still use it, I think, in flight physicals.  Anyway, I tried it res= ted, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass.  Maybe it saved me a fate= worse than...who knows?  Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunn= ery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and anothe= r 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents aroun= d the base.  Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't f= eet first.  Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 15:53:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:53:33 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. = And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they= liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mu= stang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit= had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range miss= ions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle What's a D9 and a pony? =20 WCH =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill Bergeron Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, When I = say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Musta= ng as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they liked th= e P47 better than the P51, though, I have  been told that the M= ustang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spi= t had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range mis= sions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:= William Heller
Sent: Tu= esday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 
Wha= t's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s = stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
=
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:= 41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBG= A.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Ta= lk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is= correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

C= heers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,=
Let me tell you how to = go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed= an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth A= irport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of = gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was = checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 we= re combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead p= ilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things= can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


= Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer = download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 16:01:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:01:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" Message-ID: List, This conversation on training casualties has me thinking. I believe that we had somewhere between 400,000 and 500,000 casualties (killed) during WWII. Does anyone know if this number was only combat casualties or included training. And did it make a difference in the counting if the training fatality occurred in the US or overseas? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hand [SMTP:bhandsr@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:43 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City. Those ghastly figures on pilot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide. The Ishihara test consisted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted number or letter. For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connected to make it a number 8. If this sounds screwy it probably is. They still use it, I think, in flight physicals. Anyway, I tried it rested, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass. Maybe it saved me a fate worse than...who knows? Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunnery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and another 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents around the base. Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't feet first. Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 17:20:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:20:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. The AT-9 was sort of a weird looking bird...while I was at Ellington Preflight, they were doing Advanced with them there. Supposedly the "9" was a mean groundlooper. Also the figures given in Wild Blue are assumed to be Stateside casualties....they increase with the power and capabilities of the aircraft. "Keep 'em Flying!" Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote:

Bob Hand Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do= with the number of
fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in prim= ary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in
advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was thi= s nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-b= eds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a= pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of th= e Blue Spot bar.
....I  had a rough time in not qualifying fo= r pilot training, thanks to the infamous
Ishihara Test,  .....    This one has aroused my cur= iousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice = Paulk.


The AT-9 was sort of a weird looking bird...while I was at Ellington Prefli= ght, they were doing Advanced with them there.  Supposedly the "9&= quot; was a mean groundlooper.  Also the figures given in Wild Blue are= assumed to be Stateside casualties....they increase with the power and capa= bilities of the aircraft.  "Keep 'em Flying!"  Cheers, B= ob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 20:11:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:11:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0E7F88.1A23A48@attglobal.net> --------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ... Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing. As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie., the battle of Britain. For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... Cheers! Jay Haskins wrote: > Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models > A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who > flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have > been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive > better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry > enough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information > that any of you might have. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > What's a D9 and a pony? > > WCH > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did > > six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, > > spit Vs pony. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot > > status-rermarks > > And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched > > him do it! > > A great barracks mate. > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > > > Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > > > > To All, > > > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to > > > pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed > > > landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an > > > AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down > > > from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was > > > completely out of gas. Then later went to the > > > 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was > > > checked out as a first pilot and finally wound > > > up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was > > > also an operations officer. That's how I made a > > > lead pilot after all that funny experience. No > > > brag just fact, funny how things can end up, > > > huh?. > > > cheers, > > > Bill Bergeron > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ...

Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing.

As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie., the battle of Britain.

For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters.  When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies"  ...

Cheers!
 

Jay Haskins wrote:

Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have  been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 What's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
--------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 21:26:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Shane .) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:26:08 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Hello Everyone: My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of the late Clifford B. Underwood, 303rd, 427th. He was stationed at Molesworth(???), England; he was in the Army Air Corps from 1940 to 1945. He flew 29 missions with the Hells Angels, he was a tail gunner on a B-17. His commander/pilots name was Dean L. Barnes, I don't have a whole lot of other information but I would sincerely appreciate any information anyone may have that would help me get in touch with his crew members. please help me if you can this is very important to me. My grandfather helped my mother raise me, so he was like my father, but my grandfather died on February 8th, 2001. This has been very hard for me to deal with. So if you know anything about him, his commander, or his crew please let me know. Sincerely, Shane Underwood _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 22:06:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:06:49 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When thinking of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never crossed m= y mind. I know that the 262 came out to late to make much of a difference= as to the course of the war, But now that you mention it, would like to = know how much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I know that it coul= dn't turn fight the Mustang, but it could engage or disengage at will. On= another note, was it the fighters, or the ack that worried you most? =20 Everything that I know about these things came from books, And listening = to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every year. Two years ago I met a guy= named Hal Gunn who had spent two years as a guest of Stalag Luft III. It= was interesting that his son who had come along was wearing a jacket tha= t said "Son Of A Gunn" on the back. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Haskins ... =20 Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustan= g). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber= pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck= , strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly f= or him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, a= lso. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and com= e BACK and sit on our wing. =20 As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel,= for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID= interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much= anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most im= portant item, ie., the battle of Britain. =20 For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as= there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we = had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. Wh= en you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Ber= lin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... =20 Cheers! =20 =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. = And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they= liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mu= stang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit= had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range miss= ions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle What's a D9 and a pony? =20 WCH =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill Bergeron Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= om Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When thinking = of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never crossed my mind. I= know that the 262 came out to late to make much of a difference as to th= e course of the war, But now that you mention it, would like to know how = much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I know that it couldn't turn= fight the Mustang, but it could engage or disengage at will. On another = note, was it the fighters, or the ack that worried you most?
= Everything that I know about these things came from books, And listening = to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every year. Two years ago I met&= nbsp;a guy named Hal Gunn who had spent two years as a guest of= Stalag Luft III. It was interesting that his son who had come along= was wearing a jacket that said "Son Of A Gunn" on the back.  &= nbsp;
 
----- Original Message ----= -
Se= nt: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
&nb= sp;
Haskins ...

Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 = (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of n= o consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane= , would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission.= It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber colum= n. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to = fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing.

As for the Spitf= ire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and= cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcom= ing Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th A= F Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie= ., the battle of Britain.

For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luft= waffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours.= Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw= LOTS of our own fighters.  When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s tw= o weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery = of the skies"  ...

Cheers!
 

Jay Haskins wrote: Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 1= 90, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from = some who flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I hav= e  been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive= better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry en= ough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information that= any of you might have. 

----- Original Message ---= --
From: William Heller
S= ent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 What= 's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s s= tand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:= Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correc= t!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers! =

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
<= FONT face=3Darial,helvetica>Let me tell you how to go fro= m copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT= -10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport= down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. T= hen later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checke= d out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were com= bat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot a= fter all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can e= nd up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get m= ore from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


=

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explo= rer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 22:49:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:49:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 12/5/01 11:01 AM, Tooley, Dave at DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM wrote: > List, > This conversation on training casualties has me thinking. I believe that we > had somewhere between 400,000 and 500,000 casualties (killed) during WWII. > Does anyone know if this number was only combat casualties or included > training. And did it make a difference in the counting if the training > fatality occurred in the US or overseas? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hand [SMTP:bhandsr@earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:43 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" > > on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: > > > > Hi Dave: Coincidentally, I got my issue of AIR AND SPACE this PM and there is a review of the book WILD BLUE on p.78.....not that complimentary, to be sure. To quote: " Many books contain minor errors, but the glitches in 'Wild Blue' are egregious and astonishing" .... how about that!!! The research on the book was conducted largely by the author's son. Ah, well. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 02:28:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:28:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: <81.143c7df0.294031b9@aol.com> Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but I have considerable time in all the standard fighters we had during the 1940s. For your information I am going to express my opinions to you and you can take them for what they are worth. I will admit I am somewhat opinionated. The P47 and P51 were very different airplanes and both had their advantages & disadvantages. There was no significant difference in their speeds. The P47 might have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a bit faster maybe at low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could shoot a 51 down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You could shoot two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above the 47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and guzzled great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the runway during a 3 point landing. I suspect the most pilots who knew both planes well would rather go to combat in a 47. and would chose a P38 over either of them. I think the big problem with the 38 after they got the aileron boost was keeping the gas supplies and the extra manpower for the maintenance of the two engines, Props and superchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire but they were no doubt very fine birds. There is little doubt that the best all around propeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 D or K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a joy to fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy birds. If you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M model to catch flying bombs but then some use mitts to catch baseballs. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 07:46:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:46:51 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Rencher, Thanks. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. Two years = ago, I met a guy at Duxford Imperial war museum, who said that he had spe= nt a little time in the P51 and the P47. Didn't have time to go into a lo= t of detail, But also said that the P47 could take a beating. My wife is = U.S. Army, And we are two years into a three year tour at =20 R.A.F. Molsworth. This is the reason for my interest in War Birds. Molsw= orth is now a joint analysis center, That collects intelligence from all = over Europe and Africa, And all four arms of our military are represented= here, As well as some Dutch, Spanish, And German Military. But there is = little left of the war era. So, I guess ill have to bug you guys when i h= ave questions. If I get on your nerve's let me know, And ill leave you al= one. But in the mean time,,,,,,,, Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but I have considerabl= e time in all the standard fighters we had during the 1940s. For your information I am going to express my opinions to you and you can take the= m for what they are worth. I will admit I am somewhat opinionated. The P47 and P51 were very different airplanes and both had their advantages & disadvantages. There was no significant difference in their speeds. The P47 might have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a b= it faster maybe at low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could shoot a 51 down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You cou= ld shoot two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above= the 47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and guz= zled great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the runway dur= ing a 3 point landing. I suspect the most pilots who knew both planes well w= ould rather go to combat in a 47. and would chose a P38 over either of them. = I think the big problem with the 38 after they got the aileron boost was keeping the gas supplies and the extra manpower for the maintenance of th= e two engines, Props and superchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire b= ut they were no doubt very fine birds. There is little doubt that the best = all around propeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 = D or K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a jo= y to fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy birds. = If you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M model to catch flying bo= mbs but then some use mitts to catch baseballs. Best wishes, Jack RencherGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : htt= p://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Rencher, T= hanks. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. Two years ago, I met a g= uy at Duxford Imperial war museum, who said that he had spent a little ti= me in the P51 and the P47. Didn't have time to go into a lot of detail, B= ut also said that the P47 could take a beating. My wife is U.S. Army, And= we are two years into a three year tour at
R.A.F.  Mols= worth. This is the reason for my interest in War Birds. Molsworth is now = a joint analysis center, That collects intelligence from all over Europe = and Africa, And all four arms of our military are represented here, As we= ll as some Dutch, Spanish, And German Military. But there is little left = of the war era. So, I guess ill have to bug you guys when i have question= s. If I get on your nerve's let me know, And ill leave you alone. But in = the mean time,,,,,,,,
      &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;    Thanks
----- Original Messa= ge -----
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:37 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
=
 
Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but = I have considerable
time in all the standard fighters we had during th= e 1940s. For your
information I am going to express my opinions to you= and you can take them
for what they are worth. I will admit I am some= what opinionated.

     The P47 and P51 were ve= ry different airplanes and both had their
advantages & disadvantag= es. There was no significant difference in their
speeds. The P47 might= have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a bit
faster maybe at= low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could
shoot a 51 = down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You could
shoot= two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above the<= BR>47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and = guzzled
great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the= runway during
a 3 point landing.  I suspect the most pilots who = knew both planes well would
rather go to combat in a 47. and would cho= se a P38 over either of them.  I
think the big problem with the 3= 8 after they got the aileron boost was
keeping the gas supplies and th= e extra manpower for the maintenance of the
two engines, Props and sup= erchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire but
they were no doubt v= ery fine birds.  There is little doubt that the best all
around p= ropeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 D or
= K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a jo= y to
fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy= birds.  If
you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M mode= l to catch flying bombs
but then some use mitts to catch baseballs.     Best wishes,
     Jack R= encher


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------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 09:14:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 01:14:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0F36F0.95533403@attglobal.net> --------------CCB316603C65B0E25E674992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ... To those of us who saw and made battle with the Me262s it DID have an affect on the war. Though Germany had them late they DID make a difference. You would see their bullets long before you would see them, which prevented YOUR gunners from doing anyting about it. As to which was worse, flak or fighters ... the worse was whichever you were encountering at the time. It must be remembered when we were in heavy flak the German fighters stayed away. When we had heavy fighter attacks, we usually did not get flak. Your question reminds me of a query by a newsman of one of my gunners, who asked, "Which German fighter did you fear the most?" And my gunner's answer was ... "The one coming right at you!" Cheers! WCH Jay Haskins wrote: > When thinking of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never > crossed my mind. I know that the 262 came out to late to make much of > a difference as to the course of the war, But now that you mention it, > would like to know how much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I > know that it couldn't turn fight the Mustang, but it could engage or > disengage at will. On another note, was it the fighters, or the ack > that worried you most?Everything that I know about these things came > from books, And listening to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every > year. Two years ago I met a guy named Hal Gunn who had spent two years > as a guest of Stalag Luft III. It was interesting that his son who had > come along was wearing a jacket that said "Son Of A Gunn" on the > back. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > Haskins ... > > Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and > the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was > of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on > a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come > home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for > him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed > 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to > fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing. > > As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to > mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed > at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe > planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF > Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most > important item, ie., the battle of Britain. > > For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter > cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. > Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a > misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. When you get hit > by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over > Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... > > Cheers! > > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, > > Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have > > learned from some who flew, that they liked the P47 better > > than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mustang > > was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that > > the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough > > fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any > > information that any of you might have. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > > What's a D9 and a pony? > > > > WCH > > > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > > > would like to hear anything about D9 versus > > > pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and > > > preferance of escorts, spit Vs