From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 04:46:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 04:46:38 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Bill - Thanks for a great story. You need to write a second book, this one covering your personal experiences both in USAAF and the airlines. I suspect it would be as interesting as Arthur Whitlock's "Behind the Cockpit Door," which you own. By the way, sadly Arthur passed away this spring. We always shared a beer at the annual Guild of Aviation Artists annual show in London, and of course he did a painting for me. A good friend. He really had some stories. The early (post-WWII) airline growth had some interesting sagas. Brian McGuire >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:25:21 -0800 > >Bill Hoyt ... > >Your treatise is very touching and very well said. > >We, too, grew up in the great depression, and it WAS a great depression. >When >you see grown men, with families at home, searching garbage bins ... you >get a >sick feeling. > >In our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were >fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was >requested, >by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did not yet have >FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to feed FIVE families. >For >$5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which would take care of a >family of >four. Dad fed FIVE families. I sometimes went with Dad as he distributed >these >grocery orders. I went to school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES! > >My Dad demanded that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make a >difference in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say >nasty >things. > >When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for dinner last >night?" ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked Mom to serve such >things as >bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and other dishes which were well >known in >the depression era. > >We even had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era >... >but we saw it all around us. > >But, to add poignant stories, I have one ... to wit. > >After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in various places in the world >in >my post war career as an airline pilot ... at one time we lived in Rome, >Italy >for 6 years. Upon finally returning home to live in my old home town for a >spell, we had to buy a house. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and I >went to a relatively new Appliance Store and bought many things, including >a >Refrigerator. Washer and Dryer. Stove.Television, and other smaller >appliances. > >The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our new house. >Fine. > >We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one day I stopped by the >Appliance >Store and asked for the Owner or Manager. Upon introduction, I asked why I >never got my bill, there must be some mistake and I want to pay it. > >The Owner sat me down in his "office" and he said, "Bill, you do not know >me, >do you?" I told him I did not except that now I knew he owned this store. >Then >he said, "Bill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO >YEARS >during the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill and >WILL >GET NO BILL?" > >This reduced me to tears. > >And THAT is one of my memories of a great depression where American >families >deported themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW. > >Now, let's go get those terrorists! > >Cheers! > >WCH > >hoytwma2 wrote: > > > I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held >responsible to > > some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. > > I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went >thru. > > They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive >and > > my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, >she > > got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. > > This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you >guys > > went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, >but > > for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very > > grateful. > > These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools which > > help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all >of > > you. May God bless > > > > Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crew > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 05:38:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:38:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] teach our children Message-ID: <003301c17a2a$68fe5cc0$517ae03f@hoytwma2> Wonderful story Mr. Heller, thank you very much. Your Father sounds like he was the kind of man that, if we all tried just a little bit to be like him - then maybe we wouldn't be having the problems in our society like we are now. There must have been many Blessings received for the unselfishness of your Fathers heart, ones that will continue to touch peoples lives for a very long time. Thanks again Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 06:16:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:16:06 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <73.16f78857.2939cfa6@aol.com> Friend Gary, I suppose the First Pilot (or tail gunner) could recommend a copilot for first pilot but I don't think the was the procedure very often. I would believe it would be the Operations Officer and maybe the Commanding Officer. They could very well talk it over with each other and maybe talk to the First pilot and even some of the other crew members. The Operations Officer would give him a check ride and see how he did for sure. We had some copilots that were very good pilots and some First Pilots that in my opinion should have been washed out in preflight. I hope you get an answer to this one from Bill Heeler. He has had first hand experience with this but is not very opinionated so he might not say anything. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 18:12:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:12:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice bombs Message-ID: <000901c17a93$c1eb77a0$0bbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 2 From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:52:17 EST =20 I'm not sure if we ever dropped a live bomb in training for sure. I = seem to remember=20 we did though. Our practice bomb were little blue fellows filled with = 100=20 pounds of sand. I think some if not all of them had a little charge in = them=20 so we could see a bit of smoke when they landed.=20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= +++++ Don't see a response to this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth. JACK R.---You are right about the "little blue fellows". If memory = serves me correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 lb. black powder = charge in the fin {vane} end of the bomb. I took basic Victorville AAF = base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 PM Aug 6, '42] The latter part of my stay was = as a guard. I was never posted on lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys = bunking near me was.. I wa on the water system out post and later the = bomb sight vault. They had BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s [ basic = multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the glide angle of a brick].They = used AT-7s and AT-11 for navigator and bombadier training. They also had = a hanger with a map on the floor and a traveling platform with a Norden = bomb sight mounted on it.Never saw it - just heard abouit it.---Maurice = Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Message:=20 2
 From: Jprencher@aol.com
 Date: = Fri, 30 Nov=20 2001 01:52:17 EST
 
I'm not sure if we ever dropped a = live bomb in=20 training for sure.  I seem to remember 
we did though. Our = practice=20 bomb were little blue fellows filled with 100 
pounds of sand. I = think=20 some if not all of them had a little charge in them 
so we could = see a=20 bit of smoke when they landed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++++
Don't see a = response to=20 this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth.
 
JACK R.---You are right about the = "little blue=20 fellows". If memory serves me correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 = lb.=20 black powder charge in the fin {vane} end of the bomb. I took=20 basic Victorville AAF base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 PM Aug 6, = '42] =20 The latter part of my stay was as a = guard. I was=20 never posted on lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys bunking = near me=20 was.. I wa on the water system out post and later the bomb sight vault. = They had=20 BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s [ basic multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the = glide=20 angle of a brick].They used AT-7s and = AT-11 for=20 navigator and bombadier training. They also had a hanger with a map on = the floor=20 and a traveling platform with a Norden bomb sight mounted on it.Never = saw it -=20 just heard abouit it.---Maurice Paulk
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17A61.76879D20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 1 12:48:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Smith) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 12:48:23 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011201124329.009ec290@pop.freeserve.net> Dear Sirs, I am a Doctoral student at the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. As a part of my thesis I am looking into the writing of messages on bombs before they were dropped (so-called 'bomb art'). I was hoping to enlist the help of yourselves and your members in this project. The questions I specifically need to answer are as follows: 1. Was the writing of messages on bombs common? 2. What sort of messages were written? 3. Was the writing of messages carried out by aircrew ground crew or both? 4. What do you think was the purpose of the writing of messages when the enemy was unlikely to read them? I am sure you get a lot of requests of this nature but I would be most grateful if you could spare the time to consider this one. Any responses, suggestions or abuse would be welcome by email or any other form of communication. My contact details are listed below. Many thanks. Yours David Smith PhD Student Department of International Politics University of Wales Penglais, Aberystwyth Wales, SY23 3DA email: dss97@aber.ac.uk or davidsnsmith@hotmail.com Tel. +44 (0)1970 623111 ext. 4185 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:26:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans.reusink) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:26:00 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CHRISTMASTIME Message-ID: <001f01c17ac7$eda9e6e0$8c7e79c3@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DEAR WILLIAM.(HELLER) THANK YOU FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL CHRISTMAS STORY (THE BEST I EVER HEARD) iT GOT RIGHT TO MY ROTTEN HEART (BECAUSE I AM ON THE WAITINGLIST FOR MY = THIRD HEARTSURGERY. MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE STRESS YOU ARE UNDER YOU REACT = KIND OF=20 UNSTABLE. I REMEMBER THE WORLDWAR 2 (THE ONE WE WON) WANT TO TELL YOU WILLIAM, WHEN WE SAW THE VAPOURTRAILES OF THE B17 (OUR = LADY) I FELL IN LOVE AS A BOY OFTWELFE YEARS OLD. WHY I TELL YOU THAT, IS THE FACT, THAT I CAN PERSONALLY FEEL, HOW YOU = FELT BEING WITH YOUR DAD AND HOW YOU HAD TO BEHAVE AS A BOY WILLIAM, YOU = TOUCHED MY HEART=20 AND GAVE ME THE OLD CHRISTMAS FEELING. THANK YOU FOR THAT. MERRY CHRISMAS TO YOU ALL FROM HANS REUSINK. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
DEAR = WILLIAM.(HELLER)
THANK YOU FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL CHRISTMAS = STORY (THE=20 BEST I EVER HEARD)
iT GOT RIGHT TO MY ROTTEN HEART (BECAUSE = I AM ON=20 THE WAITINGLIST FOR MY THIRD HEARTSURGERY. MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE STRESS = YOU ARE=20 UNDER YOU REACT KIND OF
UNSTABLE.
I REMEMBER THE WORLDWAR 2 (THE ONE WE=20 WON)
WANT TO TELL YOU WILLIAM, WHEN WE SAW = THE=20 VAPOURTRAILES OF THE B17 (OUR LADY)
I FELL IN LOVE AS A BOY OFTWELFE YEARS=20 OLD.
WHY I TELL YOU THAT, IS THE FACT, THAT I = CAN=20 PERSONALLY FEEL, HOW YOU FELT BEING WITH YOUR DAD AND HOW YOU HAD TO = BEHAVE AS A=20 BOY WILLIAM, YOU TOUCHED MY HEART
AND GAVE ME THE OLD CHRISTMAS=20 FEELING.
THANK YOU FOR = THAT.
MERRY CHRISMAS TO YOU ALL FROM HANS=20 REUSINK.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17AD0.4CF07DA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:30:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:30:20 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: jack pilot named??? HEELER???? really. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 00:55:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:55:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CHRISTMASTIME Message-ID: <30.1ebd7b3d.293ad5ed@aol.com> bill heller. send me that christmas story that is being grandly appreciated. thanks. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 01:03:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 01:03:34 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice bombs Message-ID: <20011202010335.ULIX941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Maurice, you are correct. We did train in AT-11's. That traveling platform you referenced, was a great training tool. The target on the floor also moved. I was called the "bug". The challenge was to maneuver the moving platform over the moving target and hit the bills-eye at bombs away. A plunger would strike the target and leave a dot at the point of impact. The paper target on the bug was much like those we used to shoot at with BB guns as a kid. Bill Runnels, bombardier > Message: 2 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:52:17 EST > > I'm not sure if we ever dropped a live bomb in training for sure. I seem to > remember > we did though. Our practice bomb were little blue fellows filled with 100 > pounds of sand. I think some if not all of them had a little charge in them > so we could see a bit of smoke when they landed. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Don't see a response to this subject so will put in my 2 cents worth. > > JACK R.---You are right about the "little blue fellows". If memory serves me > correctly they had an inertia fuse in a 5 lb. black powder charge in the fin > {vane} end of the bomb. I took basic Victorville AAF base.[Apr.-25-'42 -- 6.30 > PM Aug 6, '42] The latter part of my stay was as a guard. I was never posted on > lkthe ammo dump but one of the guys bunking near me was.. I wa on the water > system out post and later the bomb sight vault. They had BT-13As - Curtis AT-9s > [ basic multi-eng.--many crashed as the had the glide angle of a brick].They > used AT-7s and AT-11 for navigator and bombadier training. They also had a > hanger with a map on the floor and a traveling platform with a Norden bomb sight > mounted on it.Never saw it - just heard abouit it.---Maurice Paulk > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 06:32:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:32:27 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <130.5945882.293b24fb@aol.com> David Smith. My observations only. !. Where I was writing on bombs was not common. We didn't have time 2. Wise cracks. Attempts at humor. Insults to the enemy maybe 3. Both maybe but mostly ground crews I'd believe. 4. A subconscious effort to strike back maybe. Pastime, waiting for the flying crews to get there. A hedge against boredom. Best Wishes, Jack Recher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 06:41:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:41:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <30.1eb9f97b.293b272f@aol.com> IBSPEC, Sorry about Getting Heller and Heeler mixed up. Must have been sleepy or awake. Hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. They were both quite the pilots, No doubt. Jaak From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 10:01:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:01:08 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice Bombs Message-ID: <002801c17b19$3129b3e0$14e8fc3e@o7b6a3> All this talk about practice bombs has reminded me of another yarn I heard from the late Dick (Pop) McGilvray. You will no doubt recall Dick was the author of the story about the dead cow that was allegedly dropped over Germany, from a B-17 of the 303rdBG! I know that particular story got you all in a lather, so I am sure taking a risk in relating this one. However, I do so just in case someone out there remembers the incident and can verify it! I would hate to think my very dear, and much-missed friend, Dick, told me all untruths. The story goes that there was a rather large manor house close by to Molesworth, at which the local gentry were holding a wartime, summer-afternoon garden party. It seems that the crew of one or other of the 303rd's aircraft decided it would be fun to 'buzz' the garden-gathering, with a low run over it, before peeling off to make their landing at the nearby airfield. Obviously, such antics caused much alarm and did not go down at all well with the lord of the manor, who protested to the Molesworth administration, in no uncertain manner, as only the English gentry can. Not at all pleased with the response to his protestations (although I am sure the American C.O. was totally polite in his response), the lord of the manor mentioned his annoyance to some high-ranking officer in the RAF and who obviously had enough clout to do something about it. A few days later, it is alleged, a low flying aircraft (of unknown type) from the RAF approached the largest hanger at Molesworth and proceeded to 'drop' a large sack of flour through the roof of said hanger! Now that's the story as it was told to me, by Dick McGilvray, during a BBC radio interview I had with him in the mid 1980's. So please enlighten me. Is there any element of truth in this story or was Dick letting his imagination run riot once again? Over to you guys who were there at the time. Ray Cossey Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 10:11:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 02:11:51 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C09FE67.2D038084@attglobal.net> IBSPEC ... I wish I could understand what you write ... Cheers! WCH IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > jack pilot named??? HEELER???? really. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 16:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (ray cossey) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: <30.1eb9f97b.293b272f@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c17b4e$18d592c0$58e8fc3e@o7b6a3> First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. Regards Ray Cossey From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 19:16:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:16:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: History Channel Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A6FE@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello All, It's amazing when the topic of "Today's Generation" and the History Channel are discussed here, "Your Generation" is very lucky to have such a permanent and detailed monument to all of your accomplishments and sacrifices. Luckily WW II (One of a few WE WON) had the timing in our long history to be documented on film in both print and video, sometimes in COLOR! As a kid I remember WW II as the "Same old" B&W images from Twelve O'clock High used by everyone, and the Victory at Sea series of TV shows. It wasn't till I built that Plastic Revel B-17 back in the early 70's that I started to hear a "personal" account of what war was all about. Now in the last decade an amazing array of WW II footage is being shown, I think the Color film and footage really makes the younger generation realize your War was really not that far in the past. Now think about the other Veterans... lets say of WW I (We won that one too) all they have is some grainy B&W silent film of troops running "way too fast" across a battlefield and a little flying footage, the rest is all Hollywood's spin on things, and that leads me to Vietnam... Hollywood and Press butchered that War... Nuff said! And the veterans of Korea (Not done there yet) almost NO coverage of that conflict even though it was our longest "war" Baby Boomer's all over my town and others nearby live on streets dedicated to them, and don't even have a clue! The Civil War (We tied) those veterans have some glass plate negatives, and The Revolution (We beat Mom and Dad) only has an "artists" rendering of what it was like. Visit the cemeteries today and you can't even read the headstones :( Sure there are some great documentaries covering all the conflicts I mentioned out there, but very little "Personal" experience like the WW II veterans have been able to give us. Think of the veterans out there today, they will pull out a videotape of CNN footage to show there kids what the "Gulf War" and Afghanistan was like, we tend to sterilize conflicts these days... but you guys really know what these guys are going through. My point is in History WW II will most likely be the best documented conflict in History, It will leave a lasting "Proper" record of "How it was". Look at how the Children keep your Aircraft in Factory Fresh condition, including tanks, jeeps, and hundreds of other artifacts to show the Children of the future. And they can pop in a CD and hop in a virtual P-51 or B-17 and fly a mission today! The Greatest Generation will no doubt have the Greatest Collection! I cherish the fact I have been able to walk among the Giants that you guys are and soak up all the history that flows when you gather, your ranks are thinner but there's a bunch of us out there who will make sure you sacrifices and accomplishments are never forgotten. *** Today's Generation *** Todd (303rd member A--637) ~~~ Stepping off the soapbox ~~~ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 2 18:39:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:39:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011201124329.009ec290@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: on 12/1/01 7:48 AM, David Smith at dss97@aber.ac.uk wrote: >As bombardier on Fink's Crew, I sometimes added a casual insult or unflattering cartoon to one of the bombs hanging in the bay. This was done while I was arming the little beauties as they hung in the bomb racks...at altitude approaching the enemy coast (about 12,000 ft). Arming the bombs was accomplished by screwing in the fuse and threading a safety wire in the shackle. Strictly a morale-booster, once the bombs left the aircraft only the devil himself could read them. Cheers, good luck on your research! Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 01:03:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:03:58 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Practice Bombs References: <002801c17b19$3129b3e0$14e8fc3e@o7b6a3> Message-ID: <3C0ACF7E.B14717A3@attglobal.net> Ray ... There's an old saying about Pop McGilvrary ... and it goes, with tongue in cheek .... "If Pop said it, it MUST be true!' PS: I will attempt IMMEDIATELY to retrieve that story and YES, you MAY use it once I get it to you. Cheers! WCH ray cossey wrote: > All this talk about practice bombs has reminded me of another yarn I heard > from the late Dick (Pop) McGilvray. You will no doubt recall Dick was the > author of the story about the dead cow that was allegedly dropped over > Germany, from a B-17 of the 303rdBG! I know that particular story got you > all in a lather, so I am sure taking a risk in relating this one. However, I > do so just in case someone out there remembers the incident and can verify > it! I would hate to think my very dear, and much-missed friend, Dick, told > me all untruths. > > The story goes that there was a rather large manor house close by to > Molesworth, at which the local gentry were holding a wartime, > summer-afternoon garden party. It seems that the crew of one or other of the > 303rd's aircraft decided it would be fun to 'buzz' the garden-gathering, > with a low run over it, before peeling off to make their landing at the > nearby airfield. > > Obviously, such antics caused much alarm and did not go down at all well > with the lord of the manor, who protested to the Molesworth administration, > in no uncertain manner, as only the English gentry can. Not at all pleased > with the response to his protestations (although I am sure the American C.O. > was totally polite in his response), the lord of the manor mentioned his > annoyance to some high-ranking officer in the RAF and who obviously had > enough clout to do something about it. > > A few days later, it is alleged, a low flying aircraft (of unknown type) > from the RAF approached the largest hanger at Molesworth and proceeded to > 'drop' a large sack of flour through the roof of said hanger! > > Now that's the story as it was told to me, by Dick McGilvray, during a BBC > radio interview I had with him in the mid 1980's. So please enlighten me. Is > there any element of truth in this story or was Dick letting his imagination > run riot once again? Over to you guys who were there at the time. > > Ray Cossey > Norwich, England From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 03:22:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 03:22:27 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this Recher. Cheers! Brian M >From: "ray cossey" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > >Regards > > >Ray Cossey > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 04:03:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:03:37 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <12c.8997d40.293c5399@aol.com> Deer Frnd Rae, Aye no hough two spill sum wurds end sume aye doent n sum tymes aye em gust sleepie. sorrie, Jaak From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 07:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C0B2C35.F69C4ADB@attglobal.net> Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be the FOURTH. Cheers! WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > Recher. > > Cheers! > > Brian M > > >From: "ray cossey" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task for > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. I > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you did. > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > >Regards > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 08:30:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:30:52 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Heller, i read your letter, and was touched by what you had to say ab= out that era. Though i am only thirty nine years old, my dad was born and grew up durin= g that time. There is nothing special about that, as many of you who contribute to thi= s forum also exerienced this moment in Americas history. The thing that i= saw in your letter, and those that came before, was the standerd of the = common individgual of that day. My dad was born in Pearson Georgia in 1932. Both of his parents had died = before he was 18 months old and he was the youngest of seven children. T= hough he had a brother, and at least two sisters who were grown and marri= ed, it was a hard time for anyone living in south Georgia in those days, = so he was shuffled from one reletive to another during most of his youth.= By the age of seven he was already doing the work of a grown man in exch= ange for the clothes that the other children of the house hold had out gr= own, his meals, and the once a week trip to town, when he would get .25 c= ents to spend. I remember as he told it, he would drink as much water as he could hold, = so that he could make a coke last a long time, and with the other .20 cen= ts he could watch a movie and get a bag of popcorn. My dad instilled in m= e, with these stories of his early life, A strong since of value, and res= pect. He died two years ago, And it is to the memory of the greatest man = that i have ever known that i share this, and to the greatest genaration = in our nations history, That i pay tribute. Never let your children, or y= our grand children forget. God Bless. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:37 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Bill Hoyt ... Your treatise is very touching and very well said. We, too, grew up in the great depression, and it WAS a great depression. = When you see grown men, with families at home, searching garbage bins ... you = get a sick feeling. In our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was reques= ted, by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did not yet ha= ve FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to feed FIVE familie= s. For $5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which would take care of a fam= ily of four. Dad fed FIVE families. I sometimes went with Dad as he distributed= these grocery orders. I went to school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES! My Dad demanded that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make= a difference in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say na= sty things. When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for dinner last night?" ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked Mom to serve such thi= ngs as bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and other dishes which were well kn= own in the depression era. We even had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era= ... but we saw it all around us. But, to add poignant stories, I have one ... to wit. After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in various places in the wor= ld in my post war career as an airline pilot ... at one time we lived in Rome, = Italy for 6 years. Upon finally returning home to live in my old home town for = a spell, we had to buy a house. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and= I went to a relatively new Appliance Store and bought many things, includin= g a Refrigerator. Washer and Dryer. Stove.Television, and other smaller appliances. The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our new house. F= ine. We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one day I stopped by the Appli= ance Store and asked for the Owner or Manager. Upon introduction, I asked why = I never got my bill, there must be some mistake and I want to pay it. The Owner sat me down in his "office" and he said, "Bill, you do not know= me, do you?" I told him I did not except that now I knew he owned this store= . Then he said, "Bill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO YE= ARS during the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill an= d WILL GET NO BILL?" This reduced me to tears. And THAT is one of my memories of a great depression where American famil= ies deported themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW. Now, let's go get those terrorists! Cheers! WCH hoytwma2 wrote: > I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all be held responsib= le to > some degree for what our kids have or havent learned. About anything. > I dont think my parents wanted me to know of the hardships they went th= ru. > They sheltered us. My Dad would never talk of the war when he was alive= and > my Mom today makes like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, s= he > got an orange in her stocking at Christmas. > This forum which serves to enlighten people like myself as to what you = guys > went thru has left me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, b= ut > for the Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very > grateful. > These things in turn help me in raising my children. And any tools whic= h > help me to raise my children are most valuable and for that I thank all= of > you. May God bless > > Bill Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt nav 360th Fredericks crewGet more fro= m the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Heller, i = read your letter, and was touched by what you had to say about that = era.
Though i am only thirty nine years old, my dad was born a= nd grew up during that time.
There is nothing special about th= at, as many of you who contribute to this forum also exerienced this= moment in Americas history. The thing that i saw in your letter, and tho= se that came before, was the standerd of the common individgual of that d= ay.
My dad was born in Pearson Georgia in 1932. Both of his pa= rents had died before he was 18 months old and  he was the youngest = of seven children. Though he had a brother, and at least two sisters who = were grown and married, it was a hard time for anyone living in south Geo= rgia in those days, so he was shuffled from one reletive to another durin= g most of his youth. By the age of seven he was already doing the work of= a grown man in exchange for the clothes that the other children of the h= ouse hold had out grown, his meals, and the once a week trip to town, whe= n he would get .25 cents to spend.
I remember as he told it, h= e would drink as much water as he could hold, so that he could make a cok= e last a long time, and with the other .20 cents he could watch a movie a= nd get a bag of popcorn. My dad instilled in me, with these stories of hi= s early life, A strong since of value, and respect. He died two year= s ago, And it is to the memory of the greatest man that i have ever known= that i share this, and to the greatest genaration in our nations history= , That i pay tribute. Never let your children, or your grand children for= get.  God Bless.
 
----- = Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:37 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (no subjec= t)
 
Bill Hoyt ...

Your treatise is very touc= hing and very well said.

We, too, grew up in the great depression,= and it WAS a great depression. When
you see grown men, with families = at home, searching garbage bins ... you get a
sick feeling.

In = our case, however, we were VERY fortunate. Our family businesses were
= fruitful and we, in our family, knew no wants. HOWEVER, my Dad was reques= ted,
by the American Legion, which worked on such things for we did no= t yet have
FDR's massive Welfare State upon which to depend ... to fee= d FIVE families. For
$5 per week, one could buy a grocery order which = would take care of a family of
four.  Dad fed FIVE families. I so= metimes went with Dad as he distributed these
grocery orders. I went t= o school with some of the kids OF THOSE FAMILIES!

My Dad demanded = that we wear old and or reused clothing so as not to make a
difference= in a school, where kids could be difficult at times and say nasty
thi= ngs.

When the topic of the day in school was "what did we have for= dinner last
night?"  ... again, Dad was truly amazing. He asked = Mom to serve such things as
bread with stewed tomatoes on top ... and = other dishes which were well known in
the depression era.

We ev= en had a live-in Maid! It is difficult to completely relive that era ...<= BR>but we saw it all around us.

But, to add poignant stories, I ha= ve one ... to wit.

After WW#2 (the one we won) I was positioned in= various places in the world in
my post war career as an airline pilot= ... at one time we lived in Rome, Italy
for 6 years. Upon finally ret= urning home to live in my old home town for a
spell, we had to buy a h= ouse. Once bought, we had to furnish it. Ruth and I
went to a relative= ly new Appliance Store and bought many things, including a
Refrigerato= r. Washer and Dryer.  Stove.Television, and other smaller
applian= ces.

The Applian store delived all these things in one day to our = new house. Fine.

We expected a Bill ... one never came. So, one da= y I stopped by the Appliance
Store and asked for the Owner or Manager.= Upon introduction, I asked why I
never got my bill, there must be som= e mistake and I want to pay it.

The Owner sat me down in his "offi= ce" and he said, "Bill, you do not know me,
do you?"  I told him = I did not except that now I knew he owned this store. Then
he said, "B= ill, I am Mr. So-and-so, and your Dad FED MY FAMILY for TWO YEARS
duri= ng the depression! NOW, do you understand WHY you received no bill and WI= LL
GET NO BILL?"

This reduced me to tears.

And THAT is o= ne of my memories of a great depression where American families
deport= ed themselves so well. I am proud of them all, THEN and NOW.

Now, = let's go get those terrorists!

Cheers!

WCH

hoytwma2 = wrote:

> I believe that we (parents grandparents etc) must all = be held responsible to
> some degree for what our kids have or have= nt learned. About anything.
> I dont think my parents wanted me to = know of the hardships they went thru.
> They sheltered us. My Dad w= ould never talk of the war when he was alive and
> my Mom today mak= es like the great depression wasnt to bad. After all, she
> got an = orange in her stocking at Christmas.
> This forum which serves to e= nlighten people like myself as to what you guys
> went thru has lef= t me with a newfound respect not only for my Father, but
> for the = Men that flew with him and alongside him and for that I am very
> g= rateful.
> These things in turn help me in raising my children. And= any tools which
> help me to raise my children are most valuable a= nd for that I thank all of
> you. May God bless
>
> Bil= l Hoyt son of Otis Allen Hoyt  nav 360th Fredericks crew


=

Get more from the Web. FR= EE MSN Explorer download : http://exp= lorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17BD4.D17C9310-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 11:41:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:41:42 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks Message-ID: <17b.19f80c.293cbef6@aol.com> --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_17b.19f80c.293cbef6_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 14:16:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: History Channel In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF805E6A6FE@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: on 12/2/01 2:16 PM, Hollritt, Todd at todd.hollritt@attws.com wrote: > Hello All, > It's amazing when the topic of "Today's Generation" and the History > Channel are discussed here, "Your Generation" is very lucky to have such a > permanent and detailed monument to all of your accomplishments and > sacrifices. Luckily WW II (One of a few WE WON) had the timing in our long > history to be documented on film in both print and video, sometimes in > COLOR! As a kid I remember WW II as the "Same old" B&W images from Twelve > O'clock High used by everyone, and the Victory at Sea series of TV shows. It > wasn't till I built that Plastic Revel B-17 back in the early 70's that I > started to hear a "personal" account of what war was all about. Now in the > last decade an amazing array of WW II footage is being shown, I think the > Color film and footage really makes the younger generation realize your War > was really not that far in the past. > Now think about the other Veterans... lets say of WW I (We won that one > too) all they have is some grainy B&W silent film of troops running "way too > fast" across a battlefield and a little flying footage, the rest is all > Hollywood's spin on things, and that leads me to Vietnam... Hollywood and > Press butchered that War... Nuff said! And the veterans of Korea (Not done > there yet) almost NO coverage of that conflict even though it was our > longest "war" Baby Boomer's all over my town and others nearby live on > streets dedicated to them, and don't even have a clue! The Civil War (We > tied) those veterans have some glass plate negatives, and The Revolution (We > beat Mom and Dad) only has an "artists" rendering of what it was like. Visit > the cemeteries today and you can't even read the headstones :( Sure there > are some great documentaries covering all the conflicts I mentioned out > there, but very little "Personal" experience like the WW II veterans have > been able to give us. Think of the veterans out there today, they will pull > out a videotape of CNN footage to show there kids what the "Gulf War" and > Afghanistan was like, we tend to sterilize conflicts these days... but you > guys really know what these guys are going through. > My point is in History WW II will most likely be the best documented > conflict in History, It will leave a lasting "Proper" record of "How it > was". Look at how the Children keep your Aircraft in Factory Fresh > condition, including tanks, jeeps, and hundreds of other artifacts to show > the Children of the future. And they can pop in a CD and hop in a virtual > P-51 or B-17 and fly a mission today! > The Greatest Generation will no doubt have the Greatest Collection! I > cherish the fact I have been able to walk among the Giants that you guys are > and soak up all the history that flows when you gather, your ranks are > thinner but there's a bunch of us out there who will make sure you > sacrifices and accomplishments are never forgotten. *** Today's Generation > *** > > Todd (303rd member A--637) > > ~~~ Stepping off the soapbox ~~~ > > > Thanks for those very kind words, Todd....and all manner of Holiday Greetings to you and yours. I stumbled across a statistic in reading "THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training...poor blokes who applied their all in an effort to fly and bought the farm instead. Think of it...according to Ambrose, there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 whose hopes were dashed the hard way. I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, but happy I made it as a bombardier. Take care....Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 15:33:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (meurs.john) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:33:35 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Two a/c lost on November 26, 1944. Message-ID: <01c17c0f$df7624a0$3e5c03d5@meurs> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Reader, When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in nazi-occupied Holland a = B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. That was = November 26, 1944. Two of the crew members were killed by German soldiers when they were = descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the crash, = the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street = as we did. A couple of months ago we were connected to internet and I started my = research concerning the background of "my" B-17. Since then I've come in = contact with two members of the crew and obtained from Maxwell AFB a = film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day. Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission of = November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission. 303rd Bg lost two a/c that day: =20 # 42-07691, Pilot Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW. =20 # 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, crashed at Kalldorf (Germany), 9 POW. I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew = members: >From the Healy Crew: Pilot: Richard F. Healy Co-Pilot: Wallace.W. Walstein Top-Turret: Joseph J. Robertson Radio/Gunner: Philip E. Smith >From the Jameson crew: =20 Navigator: Maurie S. McDade Bombardier: Ferdinand P. Heavers Top-Turret. Glenn W. Hall =20 I would highly appreciate receiving the whereabouts of these crew = members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact them = directly and to learn more about that particular day in their lives. =20 Target for that day had been the Altenbeken railroad viaduct. During the = whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this vital viaduct without = damaging it seriously. =20 Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission and could tell me his = impression? =20 I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my mother tongue. =20 I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation in this matter. =20 john Meurs Im Gubel 5=20 CH-8630 Rueti ZH=20 Switzerland. e-mail meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = Reader,

When I was a nine years old schoolboy living in = nazi-occupied=20 Holland a B-17 crashed behind our house in the village called Apeldoorn. = That=20 was November 26, 1944.

Two of the crew members were killed by German = soldiers when=20 they were descending under their white parachutes, the pilot died in the = crash,=20 the tail-gunner escaped from a German hospital with the help of the = Dutch=20 underground and was hidden by a family living in the same street as we = did.

A couple of months ago we were connected to internet = and I=20 started my research concerning the background of "my" B-17. = Since then=20 I've come in contact with two members of the crew and obtained from = Maxwell AFB=20 a film roll with the 8th AF Mission Report for that day.

Now I would like to extend my research to the complete 8th AF mission = of=20 November 26, 1944. My ultimate aim is to write a book and/or a series of = articles about this mission.

 303rd Bg=20 lost two a/c that day:
 
# 42-07691, Pilot=20 Healy, crash landed at Volkel advanced fighter base = near=20 Eindhoven (Netherlands). 5 RTD, 3 KIA, 2 POW.
 
# 42-97972, Pilot, Jameson, = crashed at=20 Kalldorf  (Germany), 9 POW.
 
I would very much like to get in contact with the following crew=20 members:
 
From the Healy Crew:
Pilot:          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;=20 Richard F. Healy
Co-Pilot:          = ;       =20 Wallace.W. Walstein
Top-Turret:         &nb= sp;  =20 Joseph J. Robertson
Radio/Gunner:        Philip E.=20 Smith
 
From the Jameson crew:   
Navigator:         &nbs= p;     =20 Maurie S. McDade
Bombardier:         &nb= sp;  =20 Ferdinand P. Heavers
Top-Turret.        &= nbsp;      =20 Glenn W. Hall
 
I would highly appreciate receiving the = whereabouts of=20 these crew members and/or family of these members, permitting to contact = them=20 directly and to learn more about that particular day in their=20 lives.
 
Target for that day had been the Altenbeken = railroad=20 viaduct. During the whole war over 8000 bombs had been dropped on this = vital=20 viaduct without damaging it seriously.
 
Anyone in the 303rd who remembers this mission = and could=20 tell me his impression?
 
I apologize for my poor English. Dutch is my = mother=20 tongue.
 
I thank you in advance for your kind cooperation = in this=20 matter.
 
john Meurs
Im Gubel 5 
CH-8630 Rueti ZH 
Switzerland.        =    =20 e-mail  meurs.john@bluewin.ch=20
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C17C18.413A8CA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 16:03:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:03:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: bill ,i saw a member saying he liked your story and that is what i am asking of you. did i mistake the content of that members remarks. anyhow, thanks for responding. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 21:31:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:31:28 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks References: <17b.19f80c.293cbef6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0BEF30.11620B8@attglobal.net> --------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! A great barracks mate. Cheers! WCH Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > To All, > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got > my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an > AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around > 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd > as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot > and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an > operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that > funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, > huh?. > cheers, > Bill Bergeron --------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron
--------------B3C0948220CDCFEFDD4D35BB-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 3 22:18:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:18:50 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ? and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill BergeronGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://= explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
would like to = hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?<= /DIV>
and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Hell= er
Sent: Monday, December 03= , 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-tal= k@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: = [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great= barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote= :

To All,
L= et me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my w= ings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead= stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and = was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A f= ew months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up w= ith 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That= 's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just = fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron

Get more from the Web. FREE M= SN Explorer download : http://explore= r.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17C48.7C3915D0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 04:37:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 04:37:21 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: Good grief! Mea culpa. What were the second and third? Did they cover your time with the 303rd? And, of course, where can one purchase them? Cheers. CU in Missouri. Brian >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 > >Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I >expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, >Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. > >Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I >should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be >the >FOURTH. > >Cheers! > >WCH > >Brian McGuire wrote: > > > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > > Recher. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Brian M > > > > >From: "ray cossey" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task >for > > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. >I > > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you >did. > > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > > > >Regards > > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 06:27:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:27:35 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0C6CD6.DE6E07E9@attglobal.net> --------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a D9 and a pony? WCH Jay Haskins wrote: > would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s > stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot > status-rermarks > And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! > A great barracks mate. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > > To All, > > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks > > before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one > > week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth > > Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was > > completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a > > copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first > > pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were > > combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I > > made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag > > just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. > > cheers, > > Bill Bergeron > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
--------------4A51D30664C287E37E101F6F-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 18:10:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:10:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" Message-ID: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the = number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in = primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the = results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that = it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the = crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to = the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds = Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob Hand = Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 = 09:16:16=20 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by = Stephen=20 Ambrose...had to do with the number of
 fatalities incurred in = pilot=20 training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 = in
 advanced for a total of 3502 ...  Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 = fatal crashes=20 on flat-beds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It = was=20 definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at=20 Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot = bar.
....I  had=20 a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the=20 infamous
Ishihara = Test,  .....    This=20 one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a = pilots=20 joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
 
The nosey one from Nebraska - = Maurice=20 Paulk.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C17CBC.A355F560-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 20:04:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:04:31 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot References: Message-ID: <3C0D2C50.26992F56@attglobal.net> BMcG ... One was "Mr. President" ... now out of print. It made "Book Of The Week" in new England in 1981. But, it was HORRIBLY written, though a very good plot. The other was a manuscriipt about the Holocaust and my memories of my time in WW#2 (the one we won) .. during my airline flying days ... and the memories through my flying days in post war Europe. Due to political nuances at the time, it was never published because I withdrew it on my own from the publisher. It would not have been PC, shall we say. Then there were several articles in various InFlight magazines and another treatise on the Jet Lag Myth. My AIRLINE SAFETY: A VIEW FROM THE COCKPIT ... it is still handled by Amazon.com ... (thought it, too, is out of print) ... in fact I have a small royalty check on my desk which might buy a deep dish martini or two ... so very few of those come in anymore. The biggest joy in writing a book, is getting YOUR thoughts down on paper with the knowledge that OTHERS may read them and even may be really interested in what you write. But, it IS a chore. Building the characters is the largest job. Cheers! Hope to see you an Branson in 2002 ... WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Good grief! Mea culpa. What were the second and third? Did they cover your > time with the 303rd? And, of course, where can one purchase them? > > Cheers. CU in Missouri. > > Brian > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 23:39:33 -0800 > > > >Yeah, Brian, Jack's a new guy! As you know he is our President ... and, I > >expect him to go down in history alongside such Presidents as Washington, > >Lincoln, Truman, Reagan .... and now, our present one, George The Second. > > > >Good to hear from you again, Brian. And, anent your remark of, perhaps I > >should write a second book ... be advised if I write another it will be > >the > >FOURTH. > > > >Cheers! > > > >WCH > > > >Brian McGuire wrote: > > > > > Also, I just got an e-mail from a Jack Recher. Must be a new guy, this > > > Recher. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Brian M > > > > > > >From: "ray cossey" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot > > > >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:23:05 -0000 > > > > > > > >First of all poor old Jack (Mr. President) Rencher gets taken to task > >for > > > >spelling Bill Heller's surname incorrectly. Now, alas, the poor old lad > > > >cannot spell his own first name correctly. It's Jack, Jack, not Jaak. > >I > > > >just could not resist pulling your leg over that one, Jack. Unless, of > > > >course, you did it deliberately. Come to think of it, I suspect you > >did. > > > >It's going to be a long year, Mr President, but real fun along the way. > > > > > > > >Regards > > > > > > > > > > > >Ray Cossey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 4 23:25:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:25:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] CoPilot to First Pilot Message-ID: <88.103de496.293eb578@aol.com> bill ,i have contemplated. each moment i then realize it has to be a full time thinking committment to get it done promptly and worthy. cheers. spec. oh! mine could not have the wwII (THE ONE WE WON) experiences you had. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 12:42:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:42:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City. Those ghastly figures on pilot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide. The Ishihara test consisted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted number or letter. For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connected to make it a number 8. If this sounds screwy it probably is. They still use it, I think, in flight physicals. Anyway, I tried it rested, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass. Maybe it saved me a fate worse than...who knows? Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunnery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and another 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents around the base. Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't feet first. Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote:

Bob Hand Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do= with the number of
fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in prim= ary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in
advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was thi= s nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-b= eds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a= pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of th= e Blue Spot bar.
....I  had a rough time in not qualifying fo= r pilot training, thanks to the infamous
Ishihara Test,  .....    This one has aroused my cur= iousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice = Paulk.


Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City.  Those ghastly figures on pi= lot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide.  The Ishihara test cons= isted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted numbe= r or letter.  For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connecte= d to make it a number 8.  If this sounds screwy it probably is.  T= hey still use it, I think, in flight physicals.  Anyway, I tried it res= ted, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass.  Maybe it saved me a fate= worse than...who knows?  Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunn= ery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and anothe= r 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents aroun= d the base.  Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't f= eet first.  Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090382961_4930211_MIME_Part-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 15:53:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:53:33 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. = And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they= liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mu= stang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit= had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range miss= ions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle What's a D9 and a pony? =20 WCH =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill Bergeron Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, When I = say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Musta= ng as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they liked th= e P47 better than the P51, though, I have  been told that the M= ustang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spi= t had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range mis= sions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:= William Heller
Sent: Tu= esday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 
Wha= t's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s = stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
=
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:= 41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBG= A.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Ta= lk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is= correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

C= heers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,=
Let me tell you how to = go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed= an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth A= irport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of = gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was = checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 we= re combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead p= ilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things= can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


= Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer = download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DA4.FE1656F0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 16:01:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:01:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" Message-ID: List, This conversation on training casualties has me thinking. I believe that we had somewhere between 400,000 and 500,000 casualties (killed) during WWII. Does anyone know if this number was only combat casualties or included training. And did it make a difference in the counting if the training fatality occurred in the US or overseas? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hand [SMTP:bhandsr@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:43 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. Yo, Maurice, greetings from Johnson City. Those ghastly figures on pilot training fatalities I HOPE were nationwide. The Ishihara test consisted of a cluster of colored dots in the middle of which was a dotted number or letter. For instance the number 3 in one color with dots connected to make it a number 8. If this sounds screwy it probably is. They still use it, I think, in flight physicals. Anyway, I tried it rested, drunk and sober and still couldn't pass. Maybe it saved me a fate worse than...who knows? Talk about fatalities...while at Kingman Gunnery School, we lost 26 cadets in a bus / train accident at night, and another 15 in an accident in Sacramento, plus four more in various accidents around the base. Nice place to get out of in a hurry, providing it wasn't feet first. Have a great December....Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 17:20:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:20:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: <001b01c17cee$ef262640$4abb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: Bob Hand Wrote Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500 ......"THE WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do with the number of fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in primary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was this nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-beds. Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of the Blue Spot bar. ....I had a rough time in not qualifying for pilot training, thanks to the infamous Ishihara Test, ..... This one has aroused my curiousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke?? .....Cheers, Bob Hand The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice Paulk. The AT-9 was sort of a weird looking bird...while I was at Ellington Preflight, they were doing Advanced with them there. Supposedly the "9" was a mean groundlooper. Also the figures given in Wild Blue are assumed to be Stateside casualties....they increase with the power and capabilities of the aircraft. "Keep 'em Flying!" Cheers, Bob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote:

Bob Hand Wrote
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:16:16 -0500
......"THE  WILD BLUE" a book by Stephen Ambrose...had to do= with the number of
fatalities incurred in pilot training... there were 439 fatalities in prim= ary, 1175 in basic and 1888 in
advanced for a total of 3502 ... Was thi= s nation wide??? - I saw the results of several AT-9 fatal crashes on flat-b= eds.  Rumor had it that it was not too unusual. It was definetely not a= pretty sight with the crew still on board. {at Victorville, CA - home of th= e Blue Spot bar.
....I  had a rough time in not qualifying fo= r pilot training, thanks to the infamous
Ishihara Test,  .....    This one has aroused my cur= iousity ------Sounds Japanese - or is this a pilots joke??
.....Cheers, Bob Hand
The nosey one from Nebraska - Maurice = Paulk.


The AT-9 was sort of a weird looking bird...while I was at Ellington Prefli= ght, they were doing Advanced with them there.  Supposedly the "9&= quot; was a mean groundlooper.  Also the figures given in Wild Blue are= assumed to be Stateside casualties....they increase with the power and capa= bilities of the aircraft.  "Keep 'em Flying!"  Cheers, B= ob Hand --MS_Mac_OE_3090399634_5933011_MIME_Part-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 20:11:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:11:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0E7F88.1A23A48@attglobal.net> --------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ... Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing. As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie., the battle of Britain. For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... Cheers! Jay Haskins wrote: > Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models > A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who > flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have > been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive > better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry > enough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information > that any of you might have. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > What's a D9 and a pony? > > WCH > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did > > six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, > > spit Vs pony. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot > > status-rermarks > > And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched > > him do it! > > A great barracks mate. > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > > > Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > > > > To All, > > > Let me tell you how to go from copilot to > > > pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed > > > landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an > > > AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down > > > from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was > > > completely out of gas. Then later went to the > > > 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was > > > checked out as a first pilot and finally wound > > > up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was > > > also an operations officer. That's how I made a > > > lead pilot after all that funny experience. No > > > brag just fact, funny how things can end up, > > > huh?. > > > cheers, > > > Bill Bergeron > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ...

Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing.

As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie., the battle of Britain.

For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters.  When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies"  ...

Cheers!
 

Jay Haskins wrote:

Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have  been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 What's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
--------------5E9DB376D3206B8561B9BFAC-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 21:26:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Shane .) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:26:08 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Hello Everyone: My name is Shane Underwood, I am the grandson of the late Clifford B. Underwood, 303rd, 427th. He was stationed at Molesworth(???), England; he was in the Army Air Corps from 1940 to 1945. He flew 29 missions with the Hells Angels, he was a tail gunner on a B-17. His commander/pilots name was Dean L. Barnes, I don't have a whole lot of other information but I would sincerely appreciate any information anyone may have that would help me get in touch with his crew members. please help me if you can this is very important to me. My grandfather helped my mother raise me, so he was like my father, but my grandfather died on February 8th, 2001. This has been very hard for me to deal with. So if you know anything about him, his commander, or his crew please let me know. Sincerely, Shane Underwood _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 22:06:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:06:49 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When thinking of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never crossed m= y mind. I know that the 262 came out to late to make much of a difference= as to the course of the war, But now that you mention it, would like to = know how much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I know that it coul= dn't turn fight the Mustang, but it could engage or disengage at will. On= another note, was it the fighters, or the ack that worried you most? =20 Everything that I know about these things came from books, And listening = to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every year. Two years ago I met a guy= named Hal Gunn who had spent two years as a guest of Stalag Luft III. It= was interesting that his son who had come along was wearing a jacket tha= t said "Son Of A Gunn" on the back. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Haskins ... =20 Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustan= g). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber= pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck= , strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly f= or him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, a= lso. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and com= e BACK and sit on our wing. =20 As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel,= for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID= interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much= anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most im= portant item, ie., the battle of Britain. =20 For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as= there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we = had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. Wh= en you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Ber= lin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... =20 Cheers! =20 =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. = And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they= liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mu= stang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit= had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range miss= ions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle What's a D9 and a pony? =20 WCH =20 Jay Haskins wrote: =20 would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand = to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I watched him do it! =20 A great barracks mate. =20 Cheers! =20 WCH =20 =20 Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: =20 To All, =20 Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my = wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dea= d stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and= was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A = few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up = with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. Tha= t's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just= fact, funny how things can end up, huh?. =20 cheers, =20 Bill Bergeron Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= om Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When thinking = of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never crossed my mind. I= know that the 262 came out to late to make much of a difference as to th= e course of the war, But now that you mention it, would like to know how = much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I know that it couldn't turn= fight the Mustang, but it could engage or disengage at will. On another = note, was it the fighters, or the ack that worried you most?
= Everything that I know about these things came from books, And listening = to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every year. Two years ago I met&= nbsp;a guy named Hal Gunn who had spent two years as a guest of= Stalag Luft III. It was interesting that his son who had come along= was wearing a jacket that said "Son Of A Gunn" on the back.  &= nbsp;
 
----- Original Message ----= -
Se= nt: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
&nb= sp;
Haskins ...

Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 = (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of n= o consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane= , would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission.= It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber colum= n. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to = fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing.

As for the Spitf= ire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and= cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcom= ing Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th A= F Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie= ., the battle of Britain.

For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luft= waffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours.= Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw= LOTS of our own fighters.  When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s tw= o weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery = of the skies"  ...

Cheers!
 

Jay Haskins wrote: Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 1= 90, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from = some who flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I hav= e  been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive= better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry en= ough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information that= any of you might have. 

----- Original Message ---= --
From: William Heller
S= ent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 What= 's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s s= tand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:= Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correc= t!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers! =

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
<= FONT face=3Darial,helvetica>Let me tell you how to go fro= m copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT= -10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport= down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. T= hen later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checke= d out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were com= bat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot a= fter all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can e= nd up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get m= ore from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


=

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explo= rer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DD9.236AC6A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 5 22:49:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:49:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 12/5/01 11:01 AM, Tooley, Dave at DTOOLEY@Allstate.COM wrote: > List, > This conversation on training casualties has me thinking. I believe that we > had somewhere between 400,000 and 500,000 casualties (killed) during WWII. > Does anyone know if this number was only combat casualties or included > training. And did it make a difference in the counting if the training > fatality occurred in the US or overseas? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hand [SMTP:bhandsr@earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:43 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] "THE WILD BLUE" > > on 12/4/01 1:10 PM, Maurice Paulk at mjpmtman@kdsi.net wrote: > > > > Hi Dave: Coincidentally, I got my issue of AIR AND SPACE this PM and there is a review of the book WILD BLUE on p.78.....not that complimentary, to be sure. To quote: " Many books contain minor errors, but the glitches in 'Wild Blue' are egregious and astonishing" .... how about that!!! The research on the book was conducted largely by the author's son. Ah, well. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 02:28:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:28:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: <81.143c7df0.294031b9@aol.com> Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but I have considerable time in all the standard fighters we had during the 1940s. For your information I am going to express my opinions to you and you can take them for what they are worth. I will admit I am somewhat opinionated. The P47 and P51 were very different airplanes and both had their advantages & disadvantages. There was no significant difference in their speeds. The P47 might have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a bit faster maybe at low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could shoot a 51 down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You could shoot two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above the 47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and guzzled great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the runway during a 3 point landing. I suspect the most pilots who knew both planes well would rather go to combat in a 47. and would chose a P38 over either of them. I think the big problem with the 38 after they got the aileron boost was keeping the gas supplies and the extra manpower for the maintenance of the two engines, Props and superchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire but they were no doubt very fine birds. There is little doubt that the best all around propeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 D or K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a joy to fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy birds. If you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M model to catch flying bombs but then some use mitts to catch baseballs. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 07:46:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:46:51 -0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Rencher, Thanks. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. Two years = ago, I met a guy at Duxford Imperial war museum, who said that he had spe= nt a little time in the P51 and the P47. Didn't have time to go into a lo= t of detail, But also said that the P47 could take a beating. My wife is = U.S. Army, And we are two years into a three year tour at =20 R.A.F. Molsworth. This is the reason for my interest in War Birds. Molsw= orth is now a joint analysis center, That collects intelligence from all = over Europe and Africa, And all four arms of our military are represented= here, As well as some Dutch, Spanish, And German Military. But there is = little left of the war era. So, I guess ill have to bug you guys when i h= ave questions. If I get on your nerve's let me know, And ill leave you al= one. But in the mean time,,,,,,,, Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but I have considerabl= e time in all the standard fighters we had during the 1940s. For your information I am going to express my opinions to you and you can take the= m for what they are worth. I will admit I am somewhat opinionated. The P47 and P51 were very different airplanes and both had their advantages & disadvantages. There was no significant difference in their speeds. The P47 might have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a b= it faster maybe at low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could shoot a 51 down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You cou= ld shoot two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above= the 47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and guz= zled great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the runway dur= ing a 3 point landing. I suspect the most pilots who knew both planes well w= ould rather go to combat in a 47. and would chose a P38 over either of them. = I think the big problem with the 38 after they got the aileron boost was keeping the gas supplies and the extra manpower for the maintenance of th= e two engines, Props and superchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire b= ut they were no doubt very fine birds. There is little doubt that the best = all around propeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 = D or K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a jo= y to fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy birds. = If you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M model to catch flying bo= mbs but then some use mitts to catch baseballs. Best wishes, Jack RencherGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : htt= p://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Rencher, T= hanks. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. Two years ago, I met a g= uy at Duxford Imperial war museum, who said that he had spent a little ti= me in the P51 and the P47. Didn't have time to go into a lot of detail, B= ut also said that the P47 could take a beating. My wife is U.S. Army, And= we are two years into a three year tour at
R.A.F.  Mols= worth. This is the reason for my interest in War Birds. Molsworth is now = a joint analysis center, That collects intelligence from all over Europe = and Africa, And all four arms of our military are represented here, As we= ll as some Dutch, Spanish, And German Military. But there is little left = of the war era. So, I guess ill have to bug you guys when i have question= s. If I get on your nerve's let me know, And ill leave you alone. But in = the mean time,,,,,,,,
      &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;    Thanks
----- Original Messa= ge -----
From: Jprencher@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:37 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
=
 
Jay, I did not fly anything in combat except B17s, but = I have considerable
time in all the standard fighters we had during th= e 1940s. For your
information I am going to express my opinions to you= and you can take them
for what they are worth. I will admit I am some= what opinionated.

     The P47 and P51 were ve= ry different airplanes and both had their
advantages & disadvantag= es. There was no significant difference in their
speeds. The P47 might= have been a bit faster at high altitude, The 51 a bit
faster maybe at= low altitude. The P51 had 6 guns, the 47 had 8. You could
shoot a 51 = down with a BB gun if you made a hole in the radiator. You could
shoot= two jugs off a 47 and it could still fly home. Because of the above the<= BR>47 was better for ground support. It was big and strong and heavy and = guzzled
great lots of gasoline. They were both blind as for seeing the= runway during
a 3 point landing.  I suspect the most pilots who = knew both planes well would
rather go to combat in a 47. and would cho= se a P38 over either of them.  I
think the big problem with the 3= 8 after they got the aileron boost was
keeping the gas supplies and th= e extra manpower for the maintenance of the
two engines, Props and sup= erchargers I never flew a FW190 or a spitfire but
they were no doubt v= ery fine birds.  There is little doubt that the best all
around p= ropeller driven single engine fighter plane ever built was a P51 D or
= K. The Bell P63 would be right in there if it had more range. It was a jo= y to
fly and a 20 or 37 MM gun could go in the nose. I never flew navy= birds.  If
you think a 47 was slow remember they used the M mode= l to catch flying bombs
but then some use mitts to catch baseballs.     Best wishes,
     Jack R= encher


Get more fro= m the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C17E2A.2AEAED50-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 09:14:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 01:14:25 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle References: Message-ID: <3C0F36F0.95533403@attglobal.net> --------------CCB316603C65B0E25E674992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ... To those of us who saw and made battle with the Me262s it DID have an affect on the war. Though Germany had them late they DID make a difference. You would see their bullets long before you would see them, which prevented YOUR gunners from doing anyting about it. As to which was worse, flak or fighters ... the worse was whichever you were encountering at the time. It must be remembered when we were in heavy flak the German fighters stayed away. When we had heavy fighter attacks, we usually did not get flak. Your question reminds me of a query by a newsman of one of my gunners, who asked, "Which German fighter did you fear the most?" And my gunner's answer was ... "The one coming right at you!" Cheers! WCH Jay Haskins wrote: > When thinking of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never > crossed my mind. I know that the 262 came out to late to make much of > a difference as to the course of the war, But now that you mention it, > would like to know how much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I > know that it couldn't turn fight the Mustang, but it could engage or > disengage at will. On another note, was it the fighters, or the ack > that worried you most?Everything that I know about these things came > from books, And listening to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every > year. Two years ago I met a guy named Hal Gunn who had spent two years > as a guest of Stalag Luft III. It was interesting that his son who had > come along was wearing a jacket that said "Son Of A Gunn" on the > back. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > Haskins ... > > Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and > the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was > of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on > a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come > home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for > him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed > 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to > fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing. > > As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to > mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed > at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe > planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF > Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most > important item, ie., the battle of Britain. > > For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter > cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. > Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a > misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters. When you get hit > by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over > Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies" ... > > Cheers! > > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, > > Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have > > learned from some who flew, that they liked the P47 better > > than the P51, though, I have been told that the Mustang > > was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that > > the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough > > fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any > > information that any of you might have. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle > > What's a D9 and a pony? > > > > WCH > > > > Jay Haskins wrote: > > > > > would like to hear anything about D9 versus > > > pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and > > > preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Heller > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 > > > PM > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 > > > #443 -pilot status-rermarks > > > And Bill Bergeron is correct! For I > > > watched him do it! > > > A great barracks mate. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > > > > Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > To All, > > > > Let me tell you how to go from > > > > copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I > > > > got my wings, I crashed landed an > > > > AT-10 and one week later I landed > > > > an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth > > > > Airport down from 10,000 feet > > > > around 2230 hours and was > > > > completely out of gas. Then later > > > > went to the 303rd as a copilot. A > > > > few months later I was checked out > > > > as a first pilot and finally wound > > > > up with 53 missions, 38 were > > > > combat, and was also an operations > > > > officer. That's how I made a lead > > > > pilot after all that funny > > > > experience. No brag just fact, > > > > funny how things can end up, huh?. > > > > cheers, > > > > Bill Bergeron > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer > > > download : http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------CCB316603C65B0E25E674992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haskins ...

To those of us who saw and made battle with the Me262s it DID have an affect on the war. Though Germany had them late they DID make a difference. You would see their bullets long before you would see them, which prevented YOUR gunners from doing anyting about it.

As to which was worse, flak or fighters ... the worse was whichever you were encountering at the time. It must be remembered when we were in heavy flak the German fighters stayed away. When we had heavy fighter attacks, we usually did not get flak.  Your question reminds me of a query by a newsman of one of my gunners, who asked, "Which German fighter did you fear the most?"   And my gunner's answer was ... "The one coming right at you!"

Cheers!

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

When thinking of the Focke Wolve and the mustang, The 262 never crossed my mind. I know that the 262 came out to late to make much of a difference as to the course of the war, But now that you mention it, would like to know how much of an effect it made on B17 formations. I know that it couldn't turn fight the Mustang, but it could engage or disengage at will. On another note, was it the fighters, or the ack that worried you most?Everything that I know about these things came from books, And listening to the Vet's that come to Molsworth every year. Two years ago I met a guy named Hal Gunn who had spent two years as a guest of Stalag Luft III. It was interesting that his son who had come along was wearing a jacket that said "Son Of A Gunn" on the back. 
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:29 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 Haskins ...

Thanks. I have several friends who flew the P47 (Jug) and the P51 (Mustang). Whether THEY liked one or the other was of no consequence to a Bomber pilot. The P47, if it dove on a Luftwaffe plane, would then hit the deck, strafe and come home ... that was his mission. It was too fuel costly for him to come back up and join the Bomber column. He weighed 7.5 tons, also. The P51 could sit on our wing, flit off to fight a Luftwaffe and come BACK and sit on our wing.

As for the Spitfire, we had those in the early days, only to mid-channel, for support and cover AND they usually stayed at lower altitudes and DID interdict upcoming Luftwaffe planes. Later, the Spitfire did not do much anent the 8th AF Bomber columns. But, it WAS a major unit in the most important item, ie., the battle of Britain.

For most of my tour (two) I had mostly Luftwaffe for fighter cover ... as there were usually more of them than ours. Later on, of course, when we had mastery of the skies (a misnomer) I saw LOTS of our own fighters.  When you get hit by a bunch of Me262s two weeks before war's end - over Berlin - it is difficult to say "mastery of the skies"  ...

Cheers!
 

Jay Haskins wrote:

Sorry, When I say D9, I refer to the Focke Wulf 190, Models A3,A4,A8,D9. And Mustang as pony. My Err. I have learned from some who flew, that they liked the P47 better than the P51, though, I have  been told that the Mustang was much faster, and could hold a dive better. I know that the spit had a better turn rate, but didn't carry enough fuel for long range missions. Was interested in any information that any of you might have.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:02 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Phinox Vs eagle
 What's a D9 and a pony?

WCH

Jay Haskins wrote:

would like to hear anything about D9 versus pony, how did six .50s stand to the 30mm ?and preferance of escorts, spit Vs pony.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Heller
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:41 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #443 -pilot status-rermarks
 And Bill Bergeron is correct!  For I watched him do it!
A great barracks mate.

Cheers!

WCH
 

Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote:

To All,
Let me tell you how to go from copilot to pilot. 2 weeks before I got my wings, I crashed landed an AT-10 and one week later I landed an AT-9, dead stick at Fort Worth Airport down from 10,000 feet around 2230 hours and was completely out of gas. Then later went to the 303rd as a copilot. A few months later I was checked out as a first pilot and finally wound up with 53 missions, 38 were combat, and was also an operations officer. That's how I made a lead pilot after all that funny experience. No brag just fact, funny how things can end up, huh?.
cheers,
Bill Bergeron


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


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--------------CCB316603C65B0E25E674992-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 16:23:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:23:17 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Address change, rejoin group Message-ID: Hello All, I am coming back to the 303rd talk ring, if Gary will be kind enough to put me back on. I have lost a lot of data and addresses, so I have to ask a bit of indulgence. I had a computer crash, and as a result of that and other issues, have changed internet providers. My new email address is below. Talk to ya all soon. gordy Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 20:32:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:32:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Address change, rejoin group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C0F7350.25018.20801E@localhost> > Hello All, > I am coming back to the 303rd talk ring, if Gary will be kind > enough to put me back on. Welcome home, Gordy. We missed you. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 6 23:39:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:39:09 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] I'm back! Message-ID: Hi guys: I have survived my move to Alaska and am back on-line. Although I have been checking e-mails infrequently, I am now back in force. A few weeks ago I promised some of you some information. I think I have sent most of it out, but if there is anyone that hasn't gotten something I promised, please let me know. It's good to be back with my friends, especially you, Gordy Alton, Spider, Bill Heller, well, hell, all of you guys! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 7 05:37:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:37:09 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I forgot to ask, Kevin. What in the world are you doing up in Alaska, and is this a permanent thing? Kind of a big change for St. Joseph, isn't it? Were you exiled.....lol? Gordy. ******************* -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:39 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] I'm back! Hi guys: I have survived my move to Alaska and am back on-line. Although I have been checking e-mails infrequently, I am now back in force. A few weeks ago I promised some of you some information. I think I have sent most of it out, but if there is anyone that hasn't gotten something I promised, please let me know. It's good to be back with my friends, especially you, Gordy Alton, Spider, Bill Heller, well, hell, all of you guys! Kevin From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 7 18:06:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:06:24 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] P-51 vs. P-47 Message-ID: <9F6B9C485E7E5A49B913F0F52DCFEE464840C6@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Does anyone have and information to support which of these aircraft had the highest air to air kill ratio in all of the theaters by the end of WWII? Thank you. Greg Pierce E-mail gregory.s.pierce@Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 8 01:57:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:57:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska Message-ID: I just hope you and the rest of the free world keeping thinking that about Alaska - that we are exiled up here. Actually, my very good friend, Alaska is the most beautiful state of them all. OK, ok, there is a downside and that is the cold, but where I live, it doesn't get that cold USUALLY - average daytime highs in the 20s lows in the single digits. Spring, summer and fall are magnificent, and I hope to never, ever touch another air conditioning thermostat. I am doing the same thing I was in St. Joseph, bringing in new companies to the area - been here a week and just love it. Here, ten below here doesn't feel like ten below anywhere else, to coin an Arizona analogy...... hahaha Good to here from you Gordy - keep the memories alive! Kevin >From: "Gordon Alton" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:37:09 -0800 > >I forgot to ask, Kevin. What in the world are you doing up in Alaska, and >is >this a permanent thing? Kind of a big change for St. Joseph, isn't it? Were >you exiled.....lol? >Gordy. >******************* > >-----Original Message----- >From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com >[mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson >Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:39 PM >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] I'm back! > > >Hi guys: I have survived my move to Alaska and am back on-line. Although >I >have been checking e-mails infrequently, I am now back in force. A few >weeks ago I promised some of you some information. I think I have sent >most >of it out, but if there is anyone that hasn't gotten something I promised, >please let me know. > >It's good to be back with my friends, especially you, Gordy Alton, Spider, >Bill Heller, well, hell, all of you guys! >Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 8 18:14:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Spektr Products) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 10:14:26 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Information Request, Thank you in advance. Message-ID: <3C125882.7030100@spektrproducts.com> Gentlemen. My Uncle flew with you. Thomas "RAYMOND" McClure. He was shot down and was interred in Switzerland. My mother would like to hear from you about her brother. She knows he escaped back to England but knows very little about him other than he was an instructor at Minter Field in California. She was a small girl when Ray went to war and your recollections of him would mean a lot to her. She doesn't have Email, but if you could send your stories to me, I would be my privelege to pass them on to my mother. My mother is Cathleen McClure/Correa Scott Correa Tool Engineer Boeing Aircraft. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 8 20:45:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:45:27 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, Kevin. I know EXACTLY what you are saying. Everyone, almost w/o exception, thinks we in Canada live in Igloos, make love to Grizzlies, and wrestle native ladies....just a sec, I think I was supposed to wrestle the grizzly....no wonder I got so many stitches..... All kidding aside, where I live in Canada, my climate is classed as a temperate rain forest. We only got down to 32F about six times all last winter. Now, like you say, there are cold parts of Canada, and there are cold parts in the 'States and Alaska, but not where most of the people live.....Duh. In fact, about 95% of Canada's population lives within 150 miles of the 49th parallel, our common border. I actually live BELOW the 49th, and I'm surrounded by ocean and the warm Japan current. Jeez, I think I just blew our secret....now I'll have to kill ya.... Have a good one, Gordy. NB: please note my new email address, everyone. Thnx. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to achieve the freedom we all enjoy this day." ********************** -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 5:57 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alaska I just hope you and the rest of the free world keeping thinking that about Alaska - that we are exiled up here. Actually, my very good friend, Alaska is the most beautiful state of them all. OK, ok, there is a downside and that is the cold, but where I live, it doesn't get that cold USUALLY - average daytime highs in the 20s lows in the single digits. Spring, summer and fall are magnificent, and I hope to never, ever touch another air conditioning thermostat. I am doing the same thing I was in St. Joseph, bringing in new companies to the area - been here a week and just love it. Here, ten below here doesn't feel like ten below anywhere else, to coin an Arizona analogy...... hahaha Good to here from you Gordy - keep the memories alive! Kevin >From: "Gordon Alton" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:37:09 -0800 > >I forgot to ask, Kevin. What in the world are you doing up in Alaska, and >is >this a permanent thing? Kind of a big change for St. Joseph, isn't it? Were >you exiled.....lol? >Gordy. >******************* > >-----Original Message----- >From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com >[mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pearson >Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:39 PM >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] I'm back! > > >Hi guys: I have survived my move to Alaska and am back on-line. Although >I >have been checking e-mails infrequently, I am now back in force. A few >weeks ago I promised some of you some information. I think I have sent >most >of it out, but if there is anyone that hasn't gotten something I promised, >please let me know. > >It's good to be back with my friends, especially you, Gordy Alton, Spider, >Bill Heller, well, hell, all of you guys! >Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 8 21:37:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:37:51 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska Message-ID: <16f.5503408.2943e22f@aol.com> kevin ,i assume you are employed byb alaska or such entity to economic development there. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 8 21:40:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:40:50 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island Message-ID: <17b.710607.2943e2e2@aol.com> are you in british columbia? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 00:20:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:20:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island In-Reply-To: <17b.710607.2943e2e2@aol.com> Message-ID: I am, Spec. Check it out, right here. http://gulfislands.com/ I live on the largest island, Salt Spring. We call them the Gulf Islands on this side of the border, and further south, my American cousins call them the San Juan Islands.....same chain of islands, in the Georgia Strait. I gotta quit spreading this site around. Everyone that looks at it wants to move here. There are TONS of Americans here now, because your dollar is worth so much, around $1.50. The store I work at, Mouat's Trading Company, is half on land, half on water, in the Ganges Harbor. Last year we averaged 150 boats per day visiting the harbor. A new guy from Vancouver has bought the marina, and is pumping about 2 million dollars into it. For instance, we get about 1 storm a year, that comes through and busts up the wood and chain breakwater that it put up. Not cheap. Every breakwater cost about $75,000. The new owner bought a 325' Venezuelan oil tanker, put it across the harbor near the marina, and tied it down with huge chains. He will be tying it down even more later. This thing has a huge flat deck on it, so instead of some ugly wood and rock breakwater the breaks, he has a huge platform that he is going to put a swimming pool, rest and change rooms, mini golf, and tennis court on. He figures he is going to increase the 150 boat/day last summer, up to roughly 250 boat/day rate this year. About half of those boats are American, from all along the west coast, but mainly the Seattle-Tacoma area. Just shows what a smart business head and a little know how and money can make a money loser into a money maker. It will help us too, at the store. I run the hardware dept. on the main floor, and some days last year I just couldn't keep up, with customers or stock. Gotta love it, because this year should be better. The saddest thing I saw in a long time, was on 9/11. All the American boats slowly made their way out of the harbor that day, and headed home, not knowing if the border was going to be closed or not. That is the memory I have most vividly of that other "day of infamy". I will never forget it. I cried as I watched those boats head south into who knew what, that day. Yesterdays ceremonies, in Hawaii, were very good this year, I am told, with the comparison being made of both attacks, of course. Anyhow, if any of you gets up this way, let me know you're coming, and I'll try and get you a good B&B or something, if you're not on a boat. Next year's 91st BG reunion is in Tacoma, so we should get a lot of bomber vets coming over then. I sure am spreading the word. I am going to take some time off and show everybody around our provincial capitol, lovely Victoria, for a couple of days, and then bring a few over to Salt Spring Island for a few days after that. A lot of the vets are coming to Tacoma from all over, so they are going to come up to Canada for a few days and make the trip worth while. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to achieve the freedom we all enjoy this day." -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of IBSPEC@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:41 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island are you in british columbia? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 03:49:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:49:00 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <000501c18064$71c1dd60$2ebb9ace@mjpmtman> BOB HAND----I think this will sound like of a brag letter but I do have a question for you. Brian McGuire bought me lunch this noon. In the course of the conversation before and after noon I told him of the rumor I had heard in '44[???}. The story goes that a bombadier came into the ordanace office to ask the ord. officer what the tags were on the bombs. The officer told him they were on the safety pin. "Why do you ask? What did you do with them?" "Nothing". How many mission have you flown?" "20[??]".----The rumor had it that the next day a directive came out for all bombadiers to bring there pins with tags to de-briefing. Both Brian and I questioned the truthfulness of the story. We both thought that phase of arming the bomb wouild have been covered in bombadier basic. He remarked of the number of duds that produced .I had the idea that there was a "back-up" system!! Was there a fuse in the rear of the bomb too.? I am now the proud owner of a print of the memorial at the front gate of Molesworth AND a print of the two Congressional Medal of Honor recipents - Volmer and Mathis - beautiful prints!!!!!!!.Wonderful couple!! MAURICE PAULK - The "Old Geezer" from Nebraska From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 06:00:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 01:00:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island Message-ID: <2b.1faabc98.2944580d@aol.com> gordy . you are superb emisary for the chamber of commerce in them thar places. really impressed. will view area on map to get familiarity. cheers and happy holidays. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 09:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:39:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES References: <000501c18064$71c1dd60$2ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3C133155.CFFE5BE1@attglobal.net> Paulk ... Well, if we DID drop a lot of duds, they sure as hell did the trick! Anyone who ever SAW Germany immediately after the war would know that it was the largest heap of rubble EVER existing. Cheers! WCH Maurice Paulk wrote: > BOB HAND----I think this will sound like of a brag letter but I do have > a question for you. Brian McGuire bought me lunch this noon. In the > course of the conversation before and after noon I told him of the rumor > I had heard in '44[???}. The story goes that a bombadier came into the > ordanace office to ask the ord. officer what the tags were on the bombs. > The officer told him they were on the safety pin. "Why do you ask? > What did you do with them?" "Nothing". How many mission have you > flown?" "20[??]".----The rumor had it that the next day a directive came > out for all bombadiers to bring there pins with tags to de-briefing. Both > Brian and I questioned the truthfulness of the story. We both thought that > phase of arming the bomb wouild have been covered in bombadier basic. > He remarked of the number of duds that produced .I had the idea that there > was a "back-up" system!! > Was there a fuse in the rear of the bomb too.? > > I am now the proud owner of a print of the memorial at the front gate of > Molesworth AND a print of the two Congressional Medal of Honor > recipents - Volmer and Mathis - beautiful prints!!!!!!!.Wonderful couple!! > MAURICE PAULK - The "Old Geezer" from Nebraska From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 15:34:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:34:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES In-Reply-To: <000501c18064$71c1dd60$2ebb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: Howdy Mr. M: Greetings from (the other) mountain country...a damp day in Johnson City after a succession of great mild sunny days, most appreciated after leaving the environs of Paradise, Boynton Beach, Florida. Regarding the "tags"...my brain matter is fast becoming addled or something, but all I recall regarding the subject is that some B. I knew saved a tag from each mission. I did hear of one guy who had a really nice polished up string of 50 cal. with mission data on each shell only to have it confiscated before return boat-time. To each his own, I guess. Same went for me with an Brit. 20 (?)lb. practice bomb that I painted up. Cheez. cam't do nothin'! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 23:35:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:35:36 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <20011209233536.ELWJ7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Maurice, I was there in 1945 and we were required to turn in each tag with the cotter key attached and they would count them. Both nose and tail were fused. We were told that ground troops were finding UN-exploded bombs and that the cotter keys were still in place. The bombs that were shackled below the cat walk were difficult to remove in the air. You had to straddle the bomb bay door to reach them. I assume these were the bombs that were dropped unarmed. Prior to take off, I would straighten all cotter keys so they would be easy to remove in the air. Rest assured that the arming of the bombs was covered in bombardier school....Bill Runnels, bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 9 23:44:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:44:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Trip to England In-Reply-To: <3C133155.CFFE5BE1@attglobal.net> Message-ID: Hello All, I forgot to tell you guys why I was gone from the list for so long. I was in England, for a visit, and a bit of business for my late father. Let me explain. I signed off of this list, and others, the day before my son James (16) and I went over. We left Oct. 1. I had made arrangements to hook up with Jay Haskins, who lives near Molesworth, when we got there on the 2nd. James and I got off the plane and took a train to Huntingdon, and then a taxi from there to Alconbury. Jay met us at Alconbury after a short delay (because the guard unit at the gate wasn't letting anyone or anything through that gate, after 9/11), Jay met us and got us signed in to the BOQ. It was only $24 for the night, and was the best place we stayed in for the whole two weeks we were there. Got a good night's sleep, and then Jay picked us up, and took us over to the old home of the 303rd, at Molesworth. On the way we stopped at a small church to see the graves of four Canadian airmen. Sad place to end up. The first thing that catches your eye when you go in, is the wonderful monument to the Hell's Angels. Without a doubt, that is the best designed, and made, monument to any of the bomb groups that I have seen, in person or in in print. Whoever is responsible for that monument should be awful proud. I am sure it was a group effort, and many people can take a collective bow. Once through the gate (luckily enough, the same crew from Alconbury the night before, got in immed.) we wound our way through cement barricades, and took a long ways around to get to where Jay wanted to show us a few things. Since the 9/11 disaster, all bases had been put on high alert, and no vehicles driving by could stop near buildings, nor pick up much speed with all the barricades. Jay's wife works in the USAF in reading satellite material. That's all I'll say on it, because I really don't want to disclose anything to put anyone in harm's way, so she was there, but we didn't get a chance to see her again (we had met the night before). There is just not much left of the old base that used to be above ground. 2 hangars is all, and they contain some off limits projects, so we couldn't get near them. Jay took us around quite a bit of the base, but there isn't even much left of the runway any more (more on this later). Fences everywhere, and little control buildings and fenced in enclosures disclose one use of the base after you vets left - Molesworth was a missile base for nuclear missiles. All gone now, but pretty impressive just the same. It was the first time I had seen any. So, Molesworth went through a few mutations after the war: airfield, missile base, and intelligence. Right now only the latter remains, and so driving through there, the place is deserted. We went up on one low rise, and could see some dilapidated sheds off in the distance, all that remained of some barracks, we thought. So back out the gates, after our 'tour', and then head back to Huntingdon to catch the train. Right near the first intersection we got to, Jay says," I got something to show ya", and hangs a quick right turn. He stops about 100 yards down the narrow road, and jumps out, saying," Want ta have a look?". "At what", I ask, and he says," You're standin' on it". I look down at about 100 sq.yd. of rotting pavement, and Jay volunteers that this is all that remains of the original runway. Farmer's field on one side, and then a couple of ditches and a dual carriageway motorway on the other. All that remains of the old runway in in a ditch, but we saw it, and stood on it. I told you there would be more on the runway later, didn't I? I'd like to say thanks again, to Jay Haskins again for helping us out on our first days in England. We met up with the rest of our group later that day, Oct. 3rd, in London. We spent the next ten days traveling East and West Anglia with the Veterans of the 91st BG. It was a wonderful trip, and my son and I had a great time, and saw lots of sights. So, it took me a while to get my computer stuff sorted out when I got back, but back I am. You're stuck with me again. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton Box 855 Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K2W3 250-537-5913 tailgunnerson@uniserve.com "Please remember those who gave so much to achieve the freedom we all enjoy this day." (Note my new mailing and email address. I haven't moved, just updated...lol) *************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 01:01:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (J. D. Parker) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:01:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] John W. Parker 1Lt. 359th Message-ID: <20011209.190119.-184153.2.j.d.parker@juno.com> My name is J.D. Parker. My father is John W. ( Jack ) Parker. I found this site and showed it to my Dad. He was really excited and has since had me look up old buddies. He doesn't have a computer ( yet ), so I have been doing all his communicating for him. He is in pretty good health for a man almost 80. If anyone needs anymore info. let me know. j.d.parker@juno.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 02:32:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:32:27 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <000501c18122$ea79b340$7abb9ace@mjpmtman> - W. HELLER - .BILL RUNNEL AND BOB HAND --Thank you for your answers W. Heller - I flew the Continental Express and got some pretty good pictures [Koln Cathedral and Essen ] at 1000 ft they were definitely piles of rubble. Although I believe Koln was the result of British saturation bombing at night. In the Esson Works photo there is a structure, tall and round[??] with a walled platform on top. Someone told me it was a flack [flak?] tower". Is that familiar to you? -------Bill Runnel -- Correct me if I am wrong. The nose fuse's propeller activated [primed?} the fuse. Was there a "prop" on the tail fuse or was it an inertia fuse.?? Bob Hand -Hang in there man!!! My "memory chip" is not to swift these days either. At age 81 [January] I'm in pretty good shape for the shape I'm in ! At times I feel so good it scares the hell out of me!!! And please honorable sirs--Don't do any thing in the day time that I wouldn't do at night. MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 02:48:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:48:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES In-Reply-To: <20011209233536.ELWJ7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > Rest assured that the arming of the bombs was > covered in bombardier school... I'm curious what kind of training the Togglers got, and where? Did they just take one of the crew and train them, or was there formal training? I notice that some of the togglers were had toggler as their job description, and other togglers had gunner as a job description, so I assume it was a bit of both. Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 03:04:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:04:18 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <15c.586c495.29458032@aol.com> As I remember there was a prop on the tail fuse, same as the nose. In fact some of the big bombs we dropped on the concrete gun inplacements had a sharp hardened steel point in the nose fuse hole so it would penetrate the concrete and have the only fuse in the tail with enough delay to let the bomb penetrate about 23 feet of concrete before it exploded. Best, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 03:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:20:17 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <20011210032017.JZVJ5540.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> There was a prop on the tail fuse as well.....Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 03:39:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:39:29 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <20011210033930.UYZX13869.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> More often than not one of the crew gunners assumed the duties of the togglier. I'm not sure what training was provide but it was offered at the base. It wouldn't take to long to master use of the control panel etc. Keep in mind that each crew member had a general knowledge of all positions on the aircraft so it wasn't as if they were starting from scratch. The bombs were fused and loaded in the aircraft by Armament.....Bill > > > Rest assured that the arming of the bombs was > > covered in bombardier school... > > I'm curious what kind of training the Togglers got, and where? Did > they just take one of the crew and train them, or was there formal > training? I notice that some of the togglers were had toggler as > their job description, and other togglers had gunner as a job > description, so I assume it was a bit of both. > > > > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 06:03:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:03:01 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island In-Reply-To: <2b.1faabc98.2944580d@aol.com> Message-ID: My pleasure, Spec. If you have any questions, just ask. Gordy. *************** -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of IBSPEC@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 10:01 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alaska and Salt Spring Island gordy . you are superb emisary for the chamber of commerce in them thar places. really impressed. will view area on map to get familiarity. cheers and happy holidays. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 06:32:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:32:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] John W. Parker 1Lt. 359th Message-ID: <36.2025fc86.2945b11a@aol.com> Hi, I'm Larry Farrell, and my dad, Lt. Larry, Sr. was in the 359th, in the Smith crew. Did your dad know him? Larry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 10 07:33:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:33:20 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES References: <000501c18122$ea79b340$7abb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3C146540.84B8E0DA@attglobal.net> Paulk ... There were many so-called flak towers and yes, they are (or were) familiar to me. I recall several times we were told NOT to bomb the I. G. Fahrbenindustrie Office Building in Central Frankfurt, for the US intended to use it as their occupation headquarters ... isn't that something to tell the enemy? So when I spoke with some of my Lufthansa friends, one told me that it seemed we TRIED not to hit that building, whereupon I told him that he was quite correct. We MISSED it on purpose. Later, I spent lots of good times in that Building in our US Officers Club, when I was with Lufthansa So if there WERE some misses, we sure showed them that we could MISS on purpose ... Cheers! Maurice Paulk wrote: > - W. HELLER - .BILL RUNNEL AND BOB HAND --Thank you for your answers > > W. Heller - I flew the Continental Express and got some pretty good pictures > [Koln Cathedral and Essen ] at 1000 ft they were definitely piles of rubble. > Although > I believe Koln was the result of British saturation bombing at night. In the > Esson > Works photo there is a structure, tall and round[??] with a walled platform > on top. > Someone told me it was a flack [flak?] tower". Is that familiar to you? > > -------Bill Runnel -- Correct me if I am wrong. The nose fuse's propeller > activated > [primed?} the fuse. Was there a "prop" on the tail fuse or was it an > inertia fuse.?? > > Bob Hand -Hang in there man!!! My "memory chip" is not to swift these days > either. > At age 81 [January] I'm in pretty good shape for the shape I'm in ! At > times I feel so > good it scares the hell out of me!!! And please honorable sirs--Don't do > any thing > in the day time that I wouldn't do at night. > > MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 12 01:10:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:10:48 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska Message-ID: Spec: I am employed by the Anchorage Economic Development Corp., a non profit 501 C 3 organization dedicated to growing the employment base of Anchorage. Now that the oil boom has come and almost gone for Alaska, an increased emphisis is taking place for creating new jobs, kinda my specialty. Howwever, drilling in ANWR and a nnew natural gas pipeline to the Lower 48 could bring a resurgence to Alaska. You guys have not idea how beautiful it is here now. Absolutely incredible for this flat land farm boy! Kevin >From: IBSPEC@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Alaska >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:37:51 EST > >kevin ,i assume you are employed byb alaska or such entity to economic >development there. spec > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 12 21:25:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:25:09 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: yup. those below walk way were at times tough ,what with porta oxygen,large fur clothes,parachute pack,cold air in your face and 30000 feet of open space showing below. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 13 02:18:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:18:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Alaska Message-ID: good to see you hassling those dollars and benefits. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 13 08:59:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:59:47 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES References: Message-ID: <3C186E03.6963000@attglobal.net> IBSPEC ... I sure wish I could understand what you write ... Cheers and Happy Holidaze ... IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > yup. those below walk way were at times tough ,what with porta oxygen,large > fur clothes,parachute pack,cold air in your face and 30000 feet of open space > showing below. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 14 00:07:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:07:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <12b.914c867.294a9cdf@aol.com> hello william heller. pleased to have opportunities of knowing of your grand experiences before i arrived at molesworth. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 14 09:26:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:26:28 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES References: <12b.914c867.294a9cdf@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C19C5C5.5A617C62@attglobal.net> IBSPEC ... My time at Molesworth ... all of it ... was made very special by the most marvellous men in Service that I have ever seen. They kept me alive and made me feel one of them at all times. No one can hold a candle to the character, integrity and morality of the men I knew during my tour(s) at Molesworth. Cheers! WCH IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > hello william heller. pleased to have opportunities of knowing of your grand > experiences before i arrived at molesworth. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 14 19:58:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:58:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Superb crewmen.... In-Reply-To: <3C19C5C5.5A617C62@attglobal.net> Message-ID: A well-said tribute to a fine bunch of men. One of these guys, Sgt. Dick Albright, lost his wife this past week. They were married fifty-two years. Dick was my ball-turret gunner and between him down there and me up front we caught a lot of scenery during the tour. Cheers to all...Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 14 21:35:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:35:11 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB FUSES Message-ID: <82.14c7d12e.294bca8f@aol.com> heller, hope you understand me herein. it was a great esprit de corps there in my short tour. . spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 15 17:54:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:54:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stickers Message-ID: <16f.5b158f3.294ce869@aol.com> Bumper stickers are a blessing. This week leaving my bank in Rochester, N.Y. I was approached by a man who had been at Molesworth last year. He saw my bumper sticker and asked if I was there during the war. We had a nice talk and when he left he blessed all of us for what we did. He had not met anyone who was with the 303rd during his stay in England. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. Bob Morris From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 15 19:21:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:21:00 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stickers In-Reply-To: <16f.5b158f3.294ce869@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011215092100.0087e480@ilhawaii.net> Where can I get a bumper sticker? Jim Walling jimwall@ilhawaii.net At 12:54 PM 12/15/01 EST, you wrote: >Bumper stickers are a blessing. This week leaving my bank in Rochester, N.Y. >I was approached by a man who had been at Molesworth last year. He saw my >bumper sticker and asked if I was there during the war. We had a nice talk >and when he left he blessed all of us for what we did. He had not met anyone >who was with the 303rd during his stay in England. Merry Christmas and a >Happy New Year to all. >Bob Morris > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 15 20:03:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:03:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stickers In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011215092100.0087e480@ilhawaii.net> References: <16f.5b158f3.294ce869@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C1B4A36.149.177FF5@localhost> > Where can I get a bumper sticker? > At our PX: http://www.303rdbga.com/px.html Merry Christmas! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 17 03:19:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:19:43 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: <001601c186a9$ae6f2880$ba6dded8@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1866F.00112520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack, I have some questions about B17 and the main cause of eng. failure that = was not due direct enemy action. Also when an engine failed what part of the prop feathering mechanism = malfunctioned? What was the most common cause of engine fires? How much damage (if any) would an unfeathered prop likely cause to the = AC? These are questions I have wanted answerer for a good many years.=20 Jack, try to respond to these questions before you fall asleep at night. Happy Holidays to ALL ! L. Coleman 427th T/G ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1866F.00112520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jack,
I have some questions about B17 and the = main cause=20 of eng. failure that was not due direct enemy action.
Also when an engine failed what part of = the prop=20 feathering mechanism malfunctioned?
What was the most common cause of = engine=20 fires?
How much damage (if any) would an = unfeathered prop=20 likely cause to the AC?
  These are questions I have = wanted answerer=20 for a good many years.
Jack, try to respond to these questions = before you=20 fall asleep at night.
   Happy Holidays to ALL=20 !       L.=20 Coleman
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =         =20 427th T/G
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1866F.00112520-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 17 12:31:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:31:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stickers In-Reply-To: <16f.5b158f3.294ce869@aol.com> Message-ID: Had a similar experience outside the W.Palm Beach P.O.....little old lady came up to me and asked "Did you kill many Germans?" when she saw the Molesworth sticker. I designed them for a reunion in Hampton,VA (?) some years ago...assume the PX has some left, but I don't know. They were made up as luggage tags or bumper stickers. Note by your address you're a bombardier (?) I graduated from Carlsbad as B. w/class 44-8 did 35 M with Fink's Crew, last raid on 3 Feb.'45, Berlin. Good Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand. PS: Bit of confusion, I also Email friend Bob Morris in Dryden, Mich. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 17 23:51:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:51:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth Message-ID: Maybe its in the Unit History, but anyone care to reminisce about Christmas at Moleworth? My heart has always lifted a notch or two when I hear what you guys did for the children. Have any of you ever made contact with any of those kids after the war? Any amusing stories. Any of you fly combat on Christmas Day? Any of you Kreigies want to talk about Christmases in the Stalags? It must have been very difficult for you. I have read that you Kreigies saved Red Cross Food Parcels for months so that you could celebtrate Christmas and Thanksgiving in style. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 17 23:44:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:44:38 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: Lloyd, I'm not a vet, haven't even flown a 17, but I've read a great deal about them. Main cause of feathering problems I think was loss of hydraulic fluid, sometimes from the enemy, sometimes from mechanical. The fluid would drain out and then the pilots couldn't feather. From what vets have told me, when a prop wouldn't feather, it would skake the plane violently, and many times the prop would windmill into the wind until is seared off, sometimes hitting the plane with devastating force. A good friend, Lou LaHood, 91st BG, 322nd BS, had a prop that wouldn't feather on an F model and not due to battle damage. He said he thought the plane would skake itself apart, and then the prop broke free and the ride smoothed out and they made it back to base. That duraluminum was no match for a spinning prop that would tear of the crankshaft! Ok you guys, correct me if I'm wrong. Kevin >From: "Loyd Coleman" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:19:43 -0700 > >Jack, >I have some questions about B17 and the main cause of eng. failure that was >not due direct enemy action. >Also when an engine failed what part of the prop feathering mechanism >malfunctioned? >What was the most common cause of engine fires? >How much damage (if any) would an unfeathered prop likely cause to the AC? > These are questions I have wanted answerer for a good many years. >Jack, try to respond to these questions before you fall asleep at night. > Happy Holidays to ALL ! L. Coleman > 427th T/G _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 00:00:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:00:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] list slow again..... Message-ID: <3C1F762F.28240.95D367@localhost> This is a test... the list is VERY sluggish today. There was some great posts and I'm trying my best to get them through. Please be patient. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 18 05:47:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:47:39 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: <68.1878c936.2950327b@aol.com> Dear Lloyd: The prop feathering mechanism had nothing to do with the engine, except it used engine oil to feather the engine. If the engine lost ALL of it's oil the prop would not feather. There was an electric pump that, when the feathering button was pushed in the pump would pump oil into the back of the prop dome, pushing the piston therein forward until it was all the way forward and the prop blades were feathered. The pressure would then build up to 400 pounds and the feathering button would pop out. To unfeather the engine you would hold the prop feathering button in and not let it pop out. When the pressure got up to 600 pounds a valve in the prop dome would shift and direct the oil pressure to the front of the prop dome pushing the piston therein back causing the blades to unfearher. The oil that feathered the prop passed through the prop governor but had nothing to do with the operation of the governor. In normal operation the governor moved the piston to change the angle of the prop blades to hold the engine speed as set by the pilots in the cockpit. There were flyweights in the governor where centrifugal force pushed against a spring. The tension on the spring was adjusted from the cock pit. If the pressure was increased the engine would speed up until the flyweights would balance the new spring load and the RPMs would remain constant at the new setting. The only things that would burn on the engine was the oil and fuel. Oil had to be very hot to burn so most but not all engine fires were gasoline fires which meant a leak or failure some where in the fuel system, fuel pump, carburetor or intake manifolds. If leaking engine oil got on a red hot part. it could make a very hot fire and would burn like the devil once it got started. Or it could be ignited by a gasoline fire. An unfeathered prop turning a dead engine at the very least would cause a very heavy drag that would make it difficult if not impossible to hold altitude even with 3 good engines. It could also damage the failed engine depending on why it failed. Vibration would likely become a serious problem too. Could even cause a structural failure if it lasted very long. If my answers are not clear let me know and I'll try to do better. I'm not to sleepy. I've had my nap this evening. Happy Holidays to you also. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 18 06:05:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:05:45 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth Message-ID: <11.1f964eb9.295036b9@aol.com> Kevin, I flew my 35th mission on Dec 24, 1944. It was during the Battle of the Bulge. The weather was so bad we didn't get back to Molesworth but landed at an RAF base and stayed all night with them. The next morning we were ready to go again on my 36th mission. That was December 25, 1944. We were siting on the end of the runway waiting for the take off flare, when they canceled the mission. So, no I never flew a combat mission on Christmas, but I nearly did. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 18 06:37:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:37:30 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure References: Message-ID: <3C1EE42A.3756AE2C@attglobal.net> Pearson ... It was not hydraulic fluid used to control and or feather props. It was engine oil. Cheers! Kevin Pearson wrote: > Lloyd, I'm not a vet, haven't even flown a 17, but I've read a great deal > about them. Main cause of feathering problems I think was loss of hydraulic > fluid, sometimes from the enemy, sometimes from mechanical. The fluid would > drain out and then the pilots couldn't feather. From what vets have told > me, when a prop wouldn't feather, it would skake the plane violently, and > many times the prop would windmill into the wind until is seared off, > sometimes hitting the plane with devastating force. A good friend, Lou > LaHood, 91st BG, 322nd BS, had a prop that wouldn't feather on an F model > and not due to battle damage. He said he thought the plane would skake > itself apart, and then the prop broke free and the ride smoothed out and > they made it back to base. That duraluminum was no match for a spinning > prop that would tear of the crankshaft! > > Ok you guys, correct me if I'm wrong. > Kevin > > >From: "Loyd Coleman" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure > >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:19:43 -0700 > > > >Jack, > >I have some questions about B17 and the main cause of eng. failure that was > >not due direct enemy action. > >Also when an engine failed what part of the prop feathering mechanism > >malfunctioned? > >What was the most common cause of engine fires? > >How much damage (if any) would an unfeathered prop likely cause to the AC? > > These are questions I have wanted answerer for a good many years. > >Jack, try to respond to these questions before you fall asleep at night. > > Happy Holidays to ALL ! L. Coleman > > 427th T/G > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 18 12:27:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:27:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dec.24th we raided Merzhausen, my 21st with Fink's Crew. On way back to Molesworth we were diverted to Snetterton-Heath because of fog, weather. I celebrated a bit too long and missed out on drawing blankets / bedding for the night. After everyone in hut was asleep, I lifted about six blankets and made me a bunk on the floor near the potbelly stove and drifted off. Sometime during the early hours of darkness I got kicked in the head by someone answering nature's call. Big egg over my eye. No missions (that I know of) next day due to a/c scattered around and continued bad weather. Have a Jolly Jolly Christmas...Good Wishes to all and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 18 17:34:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:34:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] prop failure Message-ID: <001e01c187ea$396fa680$f1bcf5cd@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C187B7.EE474E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kuykendall's crew was flying Tail End Charlie on 3rd mission . target = Merseburg. A direct hit to number 3 engine caused lossof fluid and a windmill = effect. As RO I had a good view of how those wings could flap. Kuykendall & CP Loy Norris stalled the plane dropping us away from = formation and down to about 10,000 feet before prop froze. We were about an hour late and had been reported as going down due to = smoke from engine. The crew was in bail-out position until called back = to our posts. Ground looped on landing due to flat tire.=20 Fory barton, RO ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C187B7.EE474E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kuykendall's crew was flying Tail End = Charlie on=20 3rd mission . target Merseburg.
A direct hit to number 3 engine caused = lossof=20 fluid and a windmill effect. As RO I had a good view of how those wings = could=20 flap.
Kuykendall & CP Loy Norris stalled = the plane=20 dropping us away from formation and down to about 10,000 feet before = prop=20 froze.
We were about an hour late and had = been reported=20 as going down due to smoke from engine. The crew was in bail-out = position until=20 called back to our posts.
Ground looped on landing due to flat = tire.=20
 
Fory barton, = RO
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C187B7.EE474E60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 00:59:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:59:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth Message-ID: Does anyone have the poem about the 24.12.44 mission? It was written by a guy from another Bomb Group, and I believe I posted that message here last year. It is a great poem and describes the terribly foggy weather that night, and at the very end it mentions silent night. I know this isn't much to go on, but if it rings a bell, I'd sure appreciate receiving a copy - lost mine in the move. I am finally beginning to appreciate what you guys went through, it was minus 22 degrees here Monday morning in Anchorage an no heated (albeit, no burns) flying suit! Kevin >From: Bob Hand >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:27:35 -0500 > >Dec.24th we raided Merzhausen, my 21st with Fink's Crew. On way back to >Molesworth we were diverted to Snetterton-Heath because of fog, weather. I >celebrated a bit too long and missed out on drawing blankets / bedding for >the night. After everyone in hut was asleep, I lifted about six blankets >and >made me a bunk on the floor near the potbelly stove and drifted off. >Sometime during the early hours of darkness I got kicked in the head by >someone answering nature's call. Big egg over my eye. No missions (that I >know of) next day due to a/c scattered around and continued bad weather. >Have a Jolly Jolly Christmas...Good Wishes to all and Cheers, Bob Hand > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 01:02:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:02:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: I read in the B-17 Pilot Manual you had to synchonize the props after take-off. The manual suggest you look at the tips of the propellors where they overlap. Can anyone explain to me what this means and why you would want to do this. Sorry guys, must seem like a stupid question. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 02:09:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:09:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar Bosch Message-ID: Prior to moving up here to Alaska, one or two of you indicated you would like for me to send information on Oskar Bosch, a Luftwaffe pilot who was flying with IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 on 16 Aug. 44. Here is that information. If you want pictures, please send me a e-mail address to which I can post pictures. Kevin Lassie Come Home Update By: Kevin M. Pearson - 1999 Many of you know of my interest in a 91st BG(H), 322nd BS, B-17G named Lassie Come Home, 42-31673. You also know I visited Germany last year and found her crash site near the Village of Deiderode and brought back several pieces from her that were given to me by the kind people living there. In doing even more research since returning to the States last May, I found one of the Luftwaffe pilots engaged in the air battle on that 16th day of August 1944 when Lassie and five other Fortresses from the 324th BS were blown out of the sky by the specially equipped IV.(Sturm)/JG 3. Lassie Come Home is listed by official records as having been shot down by enemy fighters at 1002 hours on 16 Aug. 1944, the exact same time Oskar Bösch is credited with a B-17 victory. The only complicating factor is another IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 pilot, Klaus Neumann, is also credited with a B-17 victory at 1002. There is a 50% chance Oskar shot down the plane I have so meticulously researched. I flew to Toronto, Canada, on 22 January 1999, to meet with Oskar. What follows are excerpts from my interview: He was born the 18th day of May 1924, in Hoechst, Austria. He had completed a full range of glider pilot training before being accepted into the Luftwaffe in August 1942. He went on active duty in April 1944, fighting against the 1000+ bomber streams over Germany. His airbase on 16 Aug. 44, was at Schongau, a small community about 80 to 100 km west of Munich on the rim of the Alps. They promised in writing (“declared,” he said) they would not return from a defense mission without a bomber "victory." He said they used the term “victory,” not kills. They were committed to “ram if necessary.” On Saturday, 22 April 1944, he had just arrived back to Germany after receiving fighter pilot training in France and was in Hamm when a 653 B-17 air raid ruined the city. The raid lasted about three hours, and he said being in the center of the bombing "almost made him crazy." After the raid, he went out to help find survivors, and it wasn't long before the RAF came and dropped even more bombs in the burning city. At that point, he swore he would do everything he could to down the Allied bombers. He volunteered for Staffel 1. He shot down 18 aircraft from 29 April 1944 to 24 April 1945 – a Spitfire; a Mustang;five B-17s and three B-24s in the last six weeks of the war defending Berlin. He also downed four Russian IL-2s, two Russian LAGG-5s, and two YAK-9s. As a result of defending his homeland, he lost eight FW-190s - four bailouts and four crash landings. When they attacked bombers, they would come in about 1,000 meters (3,000 feet) behind the bombers and about 1,000 feet above them, at this point drawing fire from the bomber gunners, using up ammo from the bomber crew. “If fighter escorts were present, they would interfere with our tactics to our disadvantage, causing losses. We were committed to the bombers as “flying tanks” and were often forced to make head on passes through the formations with little success,” he said. If they were flying up to meet the bomber formations, they would attack the low squadron if fighter escorts were in sight. “Normally, we would attack the highest, more spread out, high squadron and work our way down through the other, lower squadrons in the group. We always tried to “knock out” the tail gun first while closing in on the bombers. We would then come in somewhat higher than the bomber and at a slight angle to the tail and fuselage to maximize the "deflection angle,” so the gunner’s aim couldn’t shoot directly at us. But we had a bigger target at which to aim and would aim at a one-meter section of the bomber through our gun site. We would aim at the wing root, that is, where the wing joins at the fuselage – where the center fuel tank was located.” He saw no fighter escorts on 16 Aug. 44 when he attacked. He is positive that on 16 Aug. 44 his aircraft was shot up very badly. His Staffel was alerted before 10 a.m. and they were airborne before 10 a.m. He thought they had flown down the 91st BG(H) formation at an altitude higher than the high squadron, while making a sweeping turn from behind to close in on the high squadron. It is difficult for him to remember the exact details of the attack. He could see the flicker of the American .50s and knew at any second they would hit. Oskar’s FW-190 armament included two, .151 mm machine guns firing through the propeller, and two 30 mm cannons firing from the outer wings. He said after the attack and B-17 victory, his own aircraft was badly shot up and almost out of control. He had to maintain 220 km/h (140 mph) to keep his plane stable for a belly landing. Normal landing air speed was 180 km/h. He landed at the airport at Köthen near Leipzig, wheels up in the grass. He said at 220 km/h, the speed he had to maintain to keep his fighter stable, the plane would have skidded on a hard surfaced runway, the resulting friction would have caused his aircraft to catch fire and blow up. After he successfully belly landed in the grass and the dust had settled, the crew lifted up his plane. The landing gear and brakes in one wheel were shot up, and bullets had come through the ammunition depot of his MK108, 30 mm cannon. Oskar was again very lucky to be alive. After many fierce dogfights on his last mission northeast of Berlin, he collided with a Russian Yak-9 aircraft on 24 April 1945, was captured by the Russians, escaped three days later, and walked over 1,000 km home to Austria with severe injury to his knee. >From January 1944 to April 1945, his Sturmstaffel lost 76 pilots, a loss of 580%, including replacement pilots, to man twelve permanent pilot stations. He is now a real estate broker in Toronto, a grandfather of 6, and has flown over 500 air shows in the last 25 years in his sailplane called Wings of a Man. He still flies the air show circuit today. Robert Bailey, a well-known and respected aviation artist, has painted an exceptional picture of Oskar’s FW 190, titled War Wolf. War Wolf puts us a few hundred feet above the treetops of the German/Belgium border at 11:15 a.m. on 27 December 1944. Eleven FW 190s of IV. Gruppe, Jaggeschwader 3 “Udet,” led by Lt. Glaubig, were flying over the Eifel at low level to avoid radar. Patton’s Third Army had broken through The Bulge and Oskar’s Staffel was assigned to attack them. His Staffel was jumped by 50+ P-51s, probably from the 352nd FG. Six Luftwaffe pilots were shot down, while Oskar got away and was credited with one Mustang victory. With many bullet holes in his FW-190, he returned to base. Oskar gave me a remarked print of this painting for my growing gallery. Oskar and his FW-190 are depicted in this outstanding painting. Oskar did not know for sure if he shot down Lassie Come Home (he hopes he didn’t). “During the war, it was a total commitment to defend the homeland like the Spitfire pilots did during the Battle of Britain,” he said. He also said all of his fellow pilots never once thought of flying to neutral Switzerland or into Allied hands to escape the brutal punishment they were receiving in the finals days of the war. They fought valiantly until the bitter end. He said you can not know how it feels to loose a war and be at the complete mercy of the victor. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 02:27:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:27:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: <10f.94973a4.295154f7@aol.com> Kevin, Did you ever notice in a movie of a moving car where the wheels appeared to turn backwards of not at all sometimes? When you watch a movie the characters appear to move as do the machines, animals, football players and even the footballs. Actually what you are watching is a series of STILL pictures that flash by the lens several frames per second. Each frame shows arms, legs, footballs, etc., in just a slightly different position than the previous frame. Your eyes and your wonderful brain see this as motion If you fly up behind a single engine airplane so you are observing him through your spinning prop his prop appears to be turning very slowly or backwards or not at all. If his prop is turning a bit faster than yours it will appear to be turning a bit. If his prop is turning a bit slower than yours his prop will appear to be turning back wards a bit. If you set your rpm so his prop blades appear to not move your RPM are exactly synched with his. You can then look at you Tachometer and tell exactly the RPM he is using This is the same trick your eyes play on you when you see a moving picture in the movie which is really a series of still pictures. In a 4 engine plane if you can observe the outboard prop through the arc of the inboard prop you can set your rpm so the prop blades on the outboard prop appear to be fixed.(not moving) you have them perfectly synched on any multi engine plane when they are out of sync they set up an audible beat frequency. You can tune that away so it is gone and synchronize them that way even in a twin with engines on opposite sides Tachometers like speedometers are not accurate exactly. So there. Good night Kevin Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 02:38:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:38:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: Kevin, I forgot to answer the why. What is the difference between a good pilot and a damn good pilot? Do you think for a minute Bill Heller (Note the spelling) would fly with his turbines out of synch? Best Wishes, Jack. (Sorry Gary. I didn't know how else to put it) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 02:55:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:55:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C1F9F45.6566.651766@localhost> > pilot and a damn good pilot? Do you think for a minute Bill > Heller (Note the spelling) would fly with his turbines out of > Jack. (Sorry Gary. I didn't know how else to put it) Well said, Jack! :-) - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 03:11:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:11:19 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011218171119.008e2af0@ilhawaii.net> Our crew also spent that lonely Christmas Eve at Snetterton Heath. Sitting in the Sergeant's club lostening to White Christmas on the jukebox and thinking of my new bride that I had three days with before going overseas meant a lot of tears in the beer. Jim Walling At 07:27 AM 12/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Dec.24th we raided Merzhausen, my 21st with Fink's Crew. On way back to >Molesworth we were diverted to Snetterton-Heath because of fog, weather. I >celebrated a bit too long and missed out on drawing blankets / bedding for >the night. After everyone in hut was asleep, I lifted about six blankets and >made me a bunk on the floor near the potbelly stove and drifted off. >Sometime during the early hours of darkness I got kicked in the head by >someone answering nature's call. Big egg over my eye. No missions (that I >know of) next day due to a/c scattered around and continued bad weather. >Have a Jolly Jolly Christmas...Good Wishes to all and Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 11:40:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:40:25 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: <18d.b99962.2951d6a9@aol.com> Kevin, After thinking over what I told you yesterday I realized I did not make one thing clear. I will try now. When looking through a rapidly spinning prop you do not see the individual blades. You cannot tell if it has two blades or 3 or 4. When looking through 2 spinning props you cannot see through them both when the blades are lined up. SO If the blades are lined up in the same position every revolution there will appear to be a blade not turning at all in that position. If the two props were rotating at the same speed the prop would appear to hold still. If they were lining up say one inch later or earlier in the revolution the prop you see would appear to be moving slowly either forward or backward depending on weather the alignment was occurring earlier or later in the revolution SO all the pilot or copilot has to do is adjust the RPM on one engine so the blade he (or she) sees does not move at all and then the two engines are exactly synched. Now I better answer your next question so you won't have to ask me. If one engine was turning exactly twice as fast as the other they would line up every other revolution and the prop would still appear to hold still. Now lets get back to the wheels turning backwards on the movie car. The film is going through the projector at a set speed, let's say 8 frames per second. Now lets say the spokes in the wheel are turning much faster, so they line up with the film nearly every few revolutions. If they lined up not exactly but close to the same position they would appear to your eye and brain to be moving slowly but the direction could appear to be either forward or backward depending on where the lined up occurred i e a bit earlier or later than the previous alignment. Best Wishes again Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 17:46:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:46:49 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: Jack: Thank you very much for your detailed response to my question. I think I know what you mean about the props standing still when the props are in synch. Sitting in the cockpit, when you would look at the top or bottom of the propeller arch where the two props overlap, the area of overlap would appear to be black and solid when the props are in synch. Is that right, have I got that correct? In many of the B-17 movies I have watched, the propellers do not appear to be in synch where the two overlap, the blades appear to be moving in one direction or the other. (And I have always wondered why car tires in movies appear to be turning backwards - thanks for that, too!) Now you are going to think I am really stupid, but why do you do this? I have only flown single-engine planes. You mention a throbbing sound if the propellers are not in synch - is this "harmonic distortion?" I have heard this before, but only once on a MD 80 about a month ago and it was the most annoying noise I have ever heard. But it only occured on the ground at low RPM. When the pilot throttled up for takeoff, the throbbing stopped, but when we landed and taxied to the gate, that loud!! throbbing came back. Other than being annoying, there must be other aerodynamic reasons for aynchronizing the props. If the props aren't in synch, is there a noticable difference in handling characteristics of the a/c? Would you burn more fuel? OK, and here is another question. In some of the movies I have watched and even when I flew on a B-17, the prop pitch controls levers are not all in alignment, some are pushed a little farther forward than the others. To get the props in synch., does the pitch of the two props have to be equal? Jack, I really appreciate your teaching this "snot-nosed kid" the finer points of flying the Fortress!! Thanks again for help! Cheers friend! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 13:04:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:04:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Christmas for POWs and at Molesworth In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011218171119.008e2af0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: Hello James...greetings from Johnson City. I can readily understand the "tears in your beer" particularly at Christmastime. Probably the worst holiday I ever had was at Kingman Ariz. the year before (1943) when 26 of my cadet group were killed in a bus / train accident on the base. I guess there were plenty of tough times to go around. Have a great holiday... Cheers, Bob Hand >> >> > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 19:18:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Loyd Coleman) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:18:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: <000e01c188c2$0add6900$2ea50ed0@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C18887.47599420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jack; Your explanation of the prop feathering mechanism was great,but on = Mission 294 we had a dead Eng.. on fire and the prop wouldn't feather. = The plane was shaking violently, it was so bad that I thought it was = going come apart. the order to bail out was given,after some of the = crew(myself included) left the plane the pilot put the plan into a dive = , this I understood extinquist the fire and at the lower altitude the = prop feathered and plane flew back to base.=20 Did the engines have reserve for low eng oil conditions?=20 Thanks Jack keep up the good work! Loyd ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C18887.47599420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Jack;
     Your = explanation of the=20 prop feathering mechanism was great,but on Mission 294 we had a dead = Eng.. on=20 fire and the prop wouldn't feather. The plane was shaking violently, it = was so=20 bad that I thought it was going come apart. the order to bail out was=20 given,after some of the crew(myself included) left the plane the pilot = put the=20 plan into a dive , this I understood  extinquist the fire and at = the lower=20 altitude the prop feathered and plane flew back to base.
Did the engines have reserve for low = eng oil=20 conditions?
Thanks Jack keep up the good work!=20 Loyd
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C18887.47599420-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 20:47:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans reusink) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:47:46 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CHRISTMASTIME Message-ID: <001501c188ce$6a3233c0$947e79c3@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C188D6.CB91E680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TO ALL THE MEMBERS OF 303RD BOMBARDMENTGROUP (H) WISH YOU ALL MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR. AND KEEP YOUR HEADS UP. HANS REUSINK FROM THE NETHERLANDS. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C188D6.CB91E680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TO ALL THE MEMBERS OF 303RD=20 BOMBARDMENTGROUP (H)
WISH YOU ALL MERRY CHRISTMAS = AND A HAPPY=20 NEW YEAR.
 AND KEEP YOUR HEADS=20 UP.
 HANS REUSINK FROM THE=20 NETHERLANDS.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C188D6.CB91E680-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 19 21:14:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:14:40 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: <184.1061dd7.29525d40@aol.com> Dear Friend Kevin, You have asked several questions and I am just home for lunch and must get back to work so I will answer them tonight. One is very interesting and quite technical so it will take a bit to explain it. No, the PITCH of the two props would not necessarily be equal to be synched. In fact most of the time they would NOT be equal when exactly synched. If I am still alive I will explain this to you this evening. Most will disagree with me but they are wrong, WRONG W R O N G. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 00:50:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:50:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: Jack, so far your information is precise, to the point and appears accurate and credible. I look forward to your response. Cheers, Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:14:40 EST > >Dear Friend Kevin, You have asked several questions and I am just home for >lunch and must get back to work so I will answer them tonight. One is very >interesting and quite technical so it will take a bit to explain it. No, >the >PITCH of the two props would not necessarily be equal to be synched. In >fact >most of the time they would NOT be equal when exactly synched. If I am >still >alive I will explain this to you this evening. Most will disagree with me >but they are wrong, WRONG W R O N G. > Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 04:47:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:47:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: <3d.166d22bb.2952c77f@aol.com> Dear Friend Kevin: Four engines all the same make and model on any 4 engine propeller driven airplane would rarely if ever put out exactly the same amount of power. I will state a few reasons for this but there are many. The condition of the rings, pistons, valves, spark plugs, etc., would not be the same. One might have more wear than the other, have over heated once, have carbon build up in the combustion chambers, Intake or exhaust manifolds, slightly different mag settings, different carburetor calibrations, different loading from aux. pumps, generators, inverters, etc., worn but still within acceptable limits on the camshaft, cam followers, rocker arms, reduction gears, etc. and even the condition of the propeller blades. One engine might have 100 hours and its mate 1000. Now if you have accepted this so far lets pick out a random power setting for our 4 engine B17. 2500 and 46 inches for take off or 2400 and 42 inches or 2300 and 36 inches. Lets use the last one. We are now flying along in a gentle climb and our props and all 4 engines are turning at exactly the same RPM (2300) and our manifold pressure is exactly 32 inches on all 4 engines. Now lets say our good 100 hour engine because of what we have learned in the first paragraph is developing 20 more horsepower than our 1000 hour engine. The only way the governor on the 100 hour engine can hold the RPMs down to 2300 is to increase the pitch of the propeller blades so as to put a higher load on the engine to hold the RPMs at 2300. The weaker 1000 hour engine governor would have to reduce the pitch of the prop blades to take a bit of load off the weak engine so it could maintain 2300 RPMs. So the truth is on any 4 engine or any multi engine propeller driven airplane probably none of the props have exactly the same pitch angle (angle of attack) when they are synchronized. The prop pitch controls don't line up exactly because they may not be adjusted just the same but more than likely the springs in the governors that balance the flyweights have just a bit of different tension (strength) If the props were out of synch just a little it would have no noticeable effect on the handling characteristics of the bird. The sound yes. If they were close so you didn't have to hold rudder or use a lot of trim tab I don't think there would be much difference in fuel consumption. The noise you heard on the MD 80 being a Jet I suspect was an auxiliary engine for ground power and/or air conditioning. I do this because you asked. I think maybe if a plane was flown a lot over the years with the props out of synch the increased vibration might cause premature metal fatigue and cracks would appear in the structure. This is just an opinion I have no research to verify this. Good Night Kevin Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 04:58:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:58:44 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: <9e.1f617537.2952ca04@aol.com> Lloyd, As I remember each engine had about 45 or 50 gallons of oil. I don't remember any reserve. If the prop failed to feather at altitude and then did at lower altitude it could have been the cold congealed the engine oil in the prop dome and it turned back into a liquid when it warmed up at the lower altitude. I would tend to doubt this if you were flying formation but it could be if you were not using the throttles much which probably would mean quite loose formation which we didn't do in the 358th or 360th. I don't know about you 359th and 427th boys Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 21:51:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:51:04 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure References: <9e.1f617537.2952ca04@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C225D47.F5DA7ACD@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... In reply to your 292001 message, allow me to add that excerizing the throttles did little to move the prop dome oil back and forth ... to prevent congealing at those cold altitudes. My F/E often came down from the top turret and higher altitudes when attacks were not imminent and "excerized" our prop PITCH levers to keep this oil moving a little. At times, the copilot did this for us. It did not need to be done too much, even a little now and then helped. If the HamStandard people needed more engineering on anything it was THAT factor of the prop dome oil congealing. Cheers, Jack, and do have as marvellous Holidaze! Cheers! Your old pal, Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd, As I remember each engine had about 45 or 50 gallons of oil. I don't > remember any reserve. If the prop failed to feather at altitude and then did > at lower altitude it could have been the cold congealed the engine oil in the > prop dome and it turned back into a liquid when it warmed up at the lower > altitude. I would tend to doubt this if you were flying formation but it > could be if you were not using the throttles much which probably would mean > quite loose formation which we didn't do in the 358th or 360th. I don't know > about you 359th and 427th boys > Best Wishes, > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 22:27:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:27:59 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props Message-ID: Again Jack, thanks for the clear and precise explanation of propeller pitch and sychonization. Excellent description! And the noise I heard on the MD 80 was harmonic distortion from the turbines, at least that's what an American Airlines pilot who was flying back to his base told me. He was sitting behind me. In all my years of flying commercially, I've never heard anything like that. In fact, several of the passengers became a bit anxious by the throbbing and that's when the pilot by me stood up and said it was only harmonic distortion. I am quite sure if they had allowed people to get off that plane, most of us would have, including myself, at least taxing for takeoff before the thumping stopped. Your explantion could not have been more clear to me and I am quite sure I will never forget your explantion. Thanks my friend! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Synchonizing the Props >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:47:59 EST > >Dear Friend Kevin: > Four engines all the same make and model on any 4 engine propeller >driven airplane would rarely if ever put out exactly the same amount of >power. I will state a few reasons for this but there are many. The >condition >of the rings, pistons, valves, spark plugs, etc., would not be the same. >One >might have more wear than the other, have over heated once, have carbon >build >up in the combustion chambers, Intake or exhaust manifolds, slightly >different mag settings, different carburetor calibrations, different >loading >from aux. pumps, generators, inverters, etc., worn but still within >acceptable limits on the camshaft, cam followers, rocker arms, reduction >gears, etc. and even the condition of the propeller blades. One engine >might >have 100 hours and its mate 1000. > Now if you have accepted this so far lets pick out a random power >setting for our 4 engine B17. 2500 and 46 inches for take off or 2400 and >42 >inches or 2300 and 36 inches. Lets use the last one. We are now flying >along >in a gentle climb and our props and all 4 engines are turning at exactly >the >same RPM (2300) and our manifold pressure is exactly 32 inches on all 4 >engines. Now lets say our good 100 hour engine because of what we have >learned in the first paragraph is developing 20 more horsepower than our >1000 >hour engine. The only way the governor on the 100 hour engine can hold the >RPMs down to 2300 is to increase the pitch of the propeller blades so as to >put a higher load on the engine to hold the RPMs at 2300. The weaker 1000 >hour engine governor would have to reduce the pitch of the prop blades to >take a bit of load off the weak engine so it could maintain 2300 RPMs. So >the >truth is on any 4 engine or any multi engine propeller driven airplane >probably none of the props have exactly the same pitch angle (angle of >attack) when they are synchronized. > The prop pitch controls don't line up exactly because they may not be >adjusted just the same but more than likely the springs in the governors >that >balance the flyweights have just a bit of different tension (strength) If >the >props were out of synch just a little it would have no noticeable effect on >the handling characteristics of the bird. The sound yes. If they were close >so you didn't have to hold rudder or use a lot of trim tab I don't think >there would be much difference in fuel consumption. The noise you heard on >the MD 80 being a Jet I suspect was an auxiliary engine for ground power >and/or air conditioning. I do this because you asked. I think maybe if a >plane was flown a lot over the years with the props out of synch the >increased vibration might cause premature metal fatigue and cracks would >appear in the structure. This is just an opinion I have no research to >verify >this. > Good Night Kevin Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 20 22:31:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:31:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure Message-ID: Jack and Lloyd: Somewhere I read there was a new feature from the F model to the G model as it realted to propeller feathering. I can't remember now if it was a backup iol supply or an electrically operated device, but because so many Forts were having trouble with feathering after battle damage, those wonderful engineers at Boeing (or maybe it was at a BAD) came up with a better mousetrap. Couldn't tell you how it worked, but I do remember reading about it. Cheers! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 engine failure >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:58:44 EST > >Lloyd, As I remember each engine had about 45 or 50 gallons of oil. I don't >remember any reserve. If the prop failed to feather at altitude and then >did >at lower altitude it could have been the cold congealed the engine oil in >the >prop dome and it turned back into a liquid when it warmed up at the lower >altitude. I would tend to doubt this if you were flying formation but it >could be if you were not using the throttles much which probably would mean >quite loose formation which we didn't do in the 358th or 360th. I don't >know >about you 359th and 427th boys > Best Wishes, > Jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 21 07:03:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:03:52 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Syncopated? Props Message-ID: <001a01c189ee$e3aef3c0$b4cbe0cf@default> Let me throw two cents in. When tuning say a piano, there are several strings for each note. You strike a note and a hammer hits these strings and they vibrate (revolutions of a prop) at a certain frequency. When they are in tune (the strings) with each other, they are moving at the same speed or frequency. They are synchronized! (Am I doing ok so far Jack?) If one string is flat or sharp (vibrating slower or faster) than the other string, then you get a waver which is the "throbbing sound" you hear. By the way if someone says "Ill give you a penny for your thoughts and you give them your two cents worth, do they owe you a penny? May everybody have a wonderful Christmas season and thanks to everyone of you who made it possible for us to have the freedom that we enjoy, from those who made the planes to those who flew them and those who kept them flying, God Bless and Merry Christmas. PS my dad Otis Allen Hoyt Nav 360th Fredericks Crew, was born on Christmas. Bill Hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 21 20:17:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:17:18 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Going off the list for awhile Message-ID: Hi list, I will be taking a couple weeks of vacation so I am temporarily signing off the list. I would like to wish all of you and your families a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!! I have had a great time this year being a part of the 303rd family. Thanks to you all!!! And don't have any REALLY interesting conversations until I return :-). Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 21 21:49:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:49:12 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Syncopated? Props Message-ID: <136.6371b64.29550858@aol.com> nicely said hoyt From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 24 14:03:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:03:36 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas Message-ID: <34.200be78b.29588fb8@aol.com> Hi TO All: I want to wish all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS and a Great New Year. I hope you all get want you want. Thanks to all of you, for giving me so much. Take care and enjoy. Brooklyn Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 24 21:39:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:39:14 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Happy Hollidays Message-ID: Merry Christmas All. Best wishes, And God Bless America. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 24 20:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:43:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <34.200be78b.29588fb8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C273102.11627.759EC@localhost> Thanks Bill, Susan and I wish a very Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year to everyone. We hope to see you all in Branson in October. > Hi TO All: > I want to wish all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS and a Great New > Year. I hope > you all get want you want. Thanks to all of you, for giving me > so much. Take care and enjoy. > > Brooklyn Bill > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 02:31:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:31:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: To all of you, No one asked me anything today so all I've got to say to you all. I sincerely WISH YOU ALL A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY, HEALTHY AND PROSPEROUS NEW 2002 Thanks for enriching my life Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 02:45:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:45:32 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C2785DC.23909.152DADD@localhost> Dear Jack, Thank you for enriching OUR lives. Your responses to questions are wonderful and your comments are a joy to read. Merry Christmas dear friend. I hope you have many, many more! > To all of you, > No one asked me anything today so all I've got to say to > you all. I > sincerely WISH YOU ALL A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY, > HEALTHY AND PROSPEROUS NEW 2002 > Thanks for enriching my life Jack Rencher - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 13:56:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:56:20 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas Message-ID: <002101c18d4c$304bf600$6b68db40@billowen> Greetings to all of you. I want to wish all of you a merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year. I enjoy the questions and answers and have learned so much. Thank you. Best wishes, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 19:14:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (spider) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:14:33 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas References: <3C273102.11627.759EC@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c18d78$64c04a40$c493bbd0@cts> Spider And Betty Smith wish all of the 303rd People the Merriest Christmas and the Happiest New Year. We love you all. Speder and Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas > Thanks Bill, > Susan and I wish a very Merry Christmas and a wonderful New > Year to everyone. We hope to see you all in Branson in > October. > > > Hi TO All: > > I want to wish all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS and a Great New > > Year. I hope > > you all get want you want. Thanks to all of you, for giving me > > so much. Take care and enjoy. > > > > Brooklyn Bill > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 19:29:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes In-Reply-To: <3C2785DC.23909.152DADD@localhost> Message-ID: Those big ol' Wrights still echo a mighty roar...Good Wishes to all, and prosperity in the New Year...Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 19:23:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bob Hand) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:23:59 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <34.200be78b.29588fb8@aol.com> Message-ID: Those Greetings right back atcha from another basic Brooklynite...Howard Ave., in particular. Trust Santa will be good to you all! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Dec 25 23:10:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:10:24 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: <31.2006f603.295a6160@aol.com> --part1_31.2006f603.295a6160_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from here? The Rasin Man. --part1_31.2006f603.295a6160_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio.  On a clear morning we see t he contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from here?
                 The Rasin Man. --part1_31.2006f603.295a6160_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 00:49:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:49:34 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes References: <31.2006f603.295a6160@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C291E9D.23DC07A4@attglobal.net> --------------927413A20771C561AB3450F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RasinMan ... Contrails are a function of temperature and humidity of the ambient air as the jet engine exhaust affects same. ANY aircraft can produce such and ANY aircraft flying just two thousand feet above or below one producing such contrails may NOT produce contrails. Also, at times you will see the contrail stop only to APPEAR again in several miles of flight ... as the temperature and humidity of the air changes. Contrails SOMETIMES were at our altitudes when flying over occupied Europe and Germany in WW#2 (the one we won). Usually the Weather Officer at briefing could tell us if his forecast made it possible for contrails. If so, we hated them BUT we LOVED them when they affected Luftwaffe planes flying above us or in our vicinity. Also, when we used to go aloft over England for the purpose of tracking V2s, we would see spurts of contrails as the rocket ascended ... and at times the contrails would cease ... and then re-appear as they entered air which produced them. We did this only to WARN London that one was on its way. There was nothing anyone could do ... just warn the ambulances and hospitals, etc., to be ready. Also, if it were NOT for contrails we could NOT have tracked them. They were not visible to the naked eye except when they were in a short launch mode near the ground. This while their own rocket fuel was burning. When this burned out, it was contrails only which we saw. They were FAST. After all it was the same sort of rocket which von Braun used to give us the Jupiter C and for us to get into Space ... Modern day Hollywood hates contrails also because many times when filming Westerns they have to CUT and or RE-SHOOT a scene BECAUSE COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS OR OTHER MILITARY PLANES IN THE AREA MADE CONTRAILS! And such sights in the sky were NOT seen in the days of Westerns! I once flew the North Atlantic from Europe to the US when one of our OWN airline planes was alongside, only HE was 2000 feet below me. HE was making contrails and I was NOT. IT made a good scene about which to talk to the passengers. Contrails is a word used to describe CONDENSATION TRAILS. Cheers! WCH RasinMan65@aol.com wrote: > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at > Paris Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see > t he contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol > over the New York area every day - could that be his contrails I see > in the morning from here? > The Rasin Man. --------------927413A20771C561AB3450F9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RasinMan ...

Contrails are a function of temperature and humidity of the ambient air as the jet engine exhaust affects same. ANY aircraft can produce such and ANY aircraft flying just two thousand feet above or below one producing such contrails may NOT produce contrails. Also, at times you will see the contrail stop only to APPEAR again in several miles of flight ... as the temperature and humidity of the air changes.

Contrails SOMETIMES were at our altitudes when flying over occupied Europe and Germany in WW#2 (the one we won). Usually the Weather Officer at briefing could tell us if his forecast made it possible for contrails. If so, we hated them BUT we LOVED them when they affected Luftwaffe planes flying above us or in our vicinity.

Also, when we used to go aloft over England for the purpose of tracking V2s, we would see spurts of contrails as the rocket ascended ... and at times the contrails would cease ... and then re-appear as they entered air which produced them. We did this only to WARN London that one was on its way. There was nothing anyone could do ... just warn the ambulances and hospitals, etc., to be ready. Also, if it were NOT for contrails we could NOT have tracked them. They were not visible to the naked eye except when they were in a short launch mode near the ground. This while their own rocket fuel was burning. When this burned out, it was contrails only which we saw. They were FAST. After all it was the same sort of rocket which von Braun used to give us the Jupiter C and for us to get into Space ...

Modern day Hollywood hates contrails also because many times when filming Westerns they have to CUT and or RE-SHOOT a scene BECAUSE COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS OR OTHER MILITARY PLANES IN THE AREA MADE CONTRAILS! And such sights in the sky were NOT seen in the days of Westerns!

I once flew the North Atlantic from Europe to the US when one of our OWN airline planes was alongside, only HE was 2000 feet below me. HE was making contrails and I was NOT. IT made a good scene about which to talk to the passengers.

Contrails is a word used to describe CONDENSATION TRAILS.

Cheers!

WCH
 
 

RasinMan65@aol.com wrote:

I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio.  On a clear morning we see t he contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from here?
                 The Rasin Man.
--------------927413A20771C561AB3450F9-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 00:58:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:58:24 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: <20011226005824.XVDV941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Could be but I would think more likely than not, the contrails you see are from commercial jets....Bill > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris > Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he > contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New > York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from > here? > The Rasin Man. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 03:05:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:05:59 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes References: <20011226005824.XVDV941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3C293E97.CCB12835@attglobal.net> Runnels ... ALL jet aircraft, military, airline or private ... make contrails when the situation is right. Cheers! WCH b.runnels@att.net wrote: > Could be but I would think more likely than not, the > contrails you see are from commercial jets....Bill > > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris > > Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he > > contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New > > York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from > > here? > > The Rasin Man. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 03:34:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:34:58 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: <88.115e7570.295a9f62@aol.com> Dear Rasin Man, If I remember my geography It would be about 400 statue airline miles from Paris Ohio to New York City. Due to the curvature of the earth and the smoke, haze, fog and etc. I would doubt one would be able to see con trails from a position on the ground near Paris that were formed over NYC. If you were observing from 30 or 40 thousand feet on a very clear day and had very good vision like Bob Hoover Chuck Yeager Maybe?? Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 04:10:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 04:10:55 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: <20011226041055.PTPW15547.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Heller, how well I know. If nothing else, 32 years in commercial aviation taught me that. Thanks.....Bill > Runnels ... > > ALL jet aircraft, military, airline or private ... make contrails when the > situation is right. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > > Could be but I would think more likely than not, the > > contrails you see are from commercial jets....Bill > > > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris > > > Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he > > > contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New > > > York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from > > > here? > > > The Rasin Man. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 08:05:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:05:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes References: <20011226041055.PTPW15547.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3C2984E0.2D5A03BA@attglobal.net> Runnels ... That sort of makes me wonder then, why the question? However, non importante. Malish. Have a Merry and a Happy! Cheers! WCH b.runnels@att.net wrote: > Heller, how well I know. If nothing else, 32 years in > commercial aviation taught me that. Thanks.....Bill > > Runnels ... > > > > ALL jet aircraft, military, airline or private ... make contrails when the > > situation is right. > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > > > > Could be but I would think more likely than not, the > > > contrails you see are from commercial jets....Bill > > > > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris > > > > Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he > > > > contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the New > > > > York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning from > > > > here? > > > > The Rasin Man. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 13:46:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: <20011226134636.VRAD7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Heller, I didn't ask the question, only responded to it. Thanks.......Bill > Runnels ... > > That sort of makes me wonder then, why the question? However, non importante. > Malish. > > Have a Merry and a Happy! > > Cheers! > > WCH > > b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > > Heller, how well I know. If nothing else, 32 years in > > commercial aviation taught me that. Thanks.....Bill > > > Runnels ... > > > > > > ALL jet aircraft, military, airline or private ... make contrails when the > > > situation is right. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > WCH > > > > > > b.runnels@att.net wrote: > > > > > > > Could be but I would think more likely than not, the > > > > contrails you see are from commercial jets....Bill > > > > > I have a question for you at the close of this holiday - I live at Paris > > > > > Ohio, which is the east-central Ohio. On a clear morning we see t he > > > > > contrails in the eastern sky. I just read that who flies patrol over the > New > > > > > York area every day - could that be his contrails I see in the morning > from > > > > > here? > > > > > The Rasin Man. > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 15:22:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:22:49 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Wishes Message-ID: --part1_a0.1fadf07a.295b4549_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its not a question of who made them but what where they over when they made them. Contrails made it the worst flying on one of my raids - it was like a cloud after the lead planes - how many, I dont know, I could hardly the plane I was flying off of. Its not commerical jets as they are mostly northerly and southerly none west or east and there is more than one plane. --part1_a0.1fadf07a.295b4549_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its not a question of who made them but what where they over when they made them.   Contrails made it the worst flying on one of my raids - it was like a cloud after the lead planes  - how many, I dont know, I could hardly the plane I was flying off of.  Its not commerical jets as they are mostly northerly and southerly none west  or east  and there is more than one plane. --part1_a0.1fadf07a.295b4549_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 20:16:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:16:48 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Con Trails 101 Message-ID: <42.1fa34ac9.295b8a30@aol.com> As you well know Water (H2O) exists in 3 states Ice (Solid), water (liquid) and Gas (vapor or steam). Clouds, fog and vapor trails are water in liquid or solid form only it's in tiny droplets, flakes (snow) or particles (hail or rain) Clear air contains water in the gas (vapor) state. It is invisible as long as it remains a gas. When air has all the water it can hold in a vapor state we say it has nearly 100% humidity. This now is important to understand this course. (1) Dense air will hold more water vapor than less dense air. (2) Warm air will hold more water vapor than cooler air. (3) When the vapor content of clear air reaches near 100% and more water is added or the air becomes less dense or cools off the vapor condenses and forms clouds or vapor trails. Fog is a cloud below 50 feet above the ground. Now for the con trails. (1) Fuel (jet fuel, Gasoline & diesel are hydrocarbons (H?C?). When they burn they take the oxygen in the air (()2) and mix it with the Hydrogen and Carbon in the fuel and form Water (H20) and Carbon dioxide (CO2) and hopefully not (carbon Monoxide (C0) There are 3 causes of vapor trails. Any or all can combine to form vapor trails. (1) When and engine burns fuel each 10 gals used will manufacture some 6 gallons more of less of new water. This comes out of the exhaust in a very hot vapor and mixes with the air. It cools rapidly and if the humidity is high can raise the water content of the air to over 100% and hence it will immediately condense into a fairly permanent vapor trail. (2) The engine is cooled by the air flowing over it or through a radiator. This heats the air, causing it to become lighter and less dense so it will start raising into the less dense air above it. If the humidity is right a vapor trail will start forming in this raising air maybe some 200 feet to 1/2 mile behind the airplane. This type of trail alone may or may not last long. (3) When air flows over the wing (Most wings) a low pressure area is produced. This lowers the density of that air and if the humidity is right the air over the wing will exceed 100% and a vapor trail will form. This is the cause of the wing tip vapor trails that form under a high wing loading. This type of vapor trail will not last long unless combined with cause number 1 and/or 2 and then they can become quite permanent. as clouds go. Is this OK with you Dear Friend Bill Heller?. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 21:44:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:44:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks For a Special Year Message-ID: 2001 started for me with a "simple" desire to learn more about my uncle's, 2Lt RV Black, war history. He was a co-pilot killed in 1943 in a B-17 based in England. That's about all I knew, so I decided to see what else I could find. Wow! In the course of the year, I tracked down his unit (91BG 324Sq), his plane (42-5857, DF-J), the details of the very few missions he flew (4, including his final one on 21 May 43), two men he trained with, the only living survivor of the four men who made it out of the plane (and into POW camps), plus a staggering amount of information about him, the 91st, the 8th AF, the war, the enemy, the Brits, B-17s, B-24s, the Little Friends, and so much more. Even though his time was in the 91st, you fellas from his sister group, the 303rd, have given me so much information and support that I want you to know how much it has meant to me. The stories and background on your mail ring, especially from Bill Heller, Bob Hand, Bill Runnels, IBSpec, Maurice Paulk and the irrepressible Jack Rencher, plus the tireless efforts of Gary Moncur in maintaining the ring and the site, have provided me with a rich store of information, delight and, I hope, at least some understanding of what it was like to be on an air crew. I'm working on a story that I hope will honor both the memory of my uncle and the wonderful people he flew with in the 8th AF. You guys are among them, and it has been a pleasure and honor getting to know you, even if it has only been online. It's been a trying year, but, if we remember the examples set by you and your contemporaries, I think even our overindulged society will muddle through the challenges to come. Best wishes to you all for continued health and many wonderful times in the coming year. Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 22:13:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:13:39 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Con Trails 101 Message-ID: Jack: You are amazing! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com, Coxbije@aol.com, RGrish20@aol.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Con Trails 101 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:16:48 EST > >As you well know Water (H2O) exists in 3 states Ice (Solid), water (liquid) >and Gas (vapor or steam). Clouds, fog and vapor trails are water in liquid >or solid form only it's in tiny droplets, flakes (snow) or particles (hail >or rain) > > Clear air contains water in the gas (vapor) state. It is invisible as >long as it remains a gas. When air has all the water it can hold in a vapor >state we say it has nearly 100% humidity. > > This now is important to understand this course. (1) Dense air will >hold >more water vapor than less dense air. (2) Warm air will hold more water >vapor >than cooler air. (3) When the vapor content of clear air reaches near 100% >and more water is added or the air becomes less dense or cools off the >vapor >condenses and forms clouds or vapor trails. Fog is a cloud below 50 feet >above the ground. > > Now for the con trails. (1) Fuel (jet fuel, Gasoline & diesel are >hydrocarbons (H?C?). When they burn they take the oxygen in the air (()2) >and >mix it with the Hydrogen and Carbon in the fuel and form Water (H20) and >Carbon dioxide (CO2) and hopefully not (carbon Monoxide (C0) > > There are 3 causes of vapor trails. Any or all can combine to form >vapor >trails. >(1) When and engine burns fuel each 10 gals used will manufacture some 6 >gallons more of less of new water. This comes out of the exhaust in a very >hot vapor and mixes with the air. It cools rapidly and if the humidity is >high can raise the water content of the air to over 100% and hence it will >immediately condense into a fairly permanent vapor trail. (2) The engine >is >cooled by the air flowing over it or through a radiator. This heats the >air, >causing it to become lighter and less dense so it will start raising into >the >less dense air above it. If the humidity is right a vapor trail will start >forming in this raising air maybe some 200 feet to 1/2 mile behind the >airplane. >This type of trail alone may or may not last long. (3) When air flows over >the wing (Most wings) a low pressure area is produced. This lowers the >density of that air and if the humidity is right the air over the wing will >exceed 100% and a vapor trail will form. This is the cause of the wing tip >vapor trails that form under a high wing loading. This type of vapor trail >will not last long unless combined with cause number 1 and/or 2 and then >they >can become quite permanent. as clouds go. > > Is this OK with you Dear Friend Bill Heller?. > > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 22:48:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian Pearson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:48:37 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello To All! Message-ID: Hello to all the 303rd members. My name is Brian and I am 16 yrs old. I live in Peoria, IL and have recently joined the 303rd group, on the advice of my dad, Kevin Pearson. I just wanted to take this time to say hello and that I hopefully will get to know all of you. I am very interested in history, especially the second World War, so I am looking forward to corresponding with you guys. Even though I haven't even come close to tasting war (knock on wood), I still love to read and hear stories from the men who were there. I hope you all had a very Merry Christmas and I wish you the best of luck in the upcoming year. Your New Friend in the 303rd, Brian Pearson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 22:51:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:51:02 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Thanks For a Special Year Message-ID: <20011226225102.DXHZ5540.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Mike, thanks for the kind words and good luck on the story about your Uncle. Regards Bill Runnels > 2001 started for me with a "simple" desire to learn more about my uncle's, > 2Lt RV Black, war history. He was a co-pilot killed in 1943 in a B-17 based > in England. That's about all I knew, so I decided to see what else I could > find. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Dec 26 23:16:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:16:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? In-Reply-To: <20011226225102.DXHZ5540.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: It seems like by this time last year I got the request for yearly 303rdbga dues in the mail. Is it late this year or did mine get lost in the mail? I'd hate to miss an issue of the newsletter. Thanks Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 27 09:05:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 01:05:40 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Con Trails 101 References: <42.1fa34ac9.295b8a30@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C2AE463.4862361C@attglobal.net> Jack ... Your Seminar is 100% perfect! Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > As you well know Water (H2O) exists in 3 states Ice (Solid), water (liquid) > and Gas (vapor or steam). Clouds, fog and vapor trails are water in liquid > or solid form only it's in tiny droplets, flakes (snow) or particles (hail > or rain) > > Clear air contains water in the gas (vapor) state. It is invisible as > long as it remains a gas. When air has all the water it can hold in a vapor > state we say it has nearly 100% humidity. > > This now is important to understand this course. (1) Dense air will hold > more water vapor than less dense air. (2) Warm air will hold more water vapor > than cooler air. (3) When the vapor content of clear air reaches near 100% > and more water is added or the air becomes less dense or cools off the vapor > condenses and forms clouds or vapor trails. Fog is a cloud below 50 feet > above the ground. > > Now for the con trails. (1) Fuel (jet fuel, Gasoline & diesel are > hydrocarbons (H?C?). When they burn they take the oxygen in the air (()2) and > mix it with the Hydrogen and Carbon in the fuel and form Water (H20) and > Carbon dioxide (CO2) and hopefully not (carbon Monoxide (C0) > > There are 3 causes of vapor trails. Any or all can combine to form vapor > trails. > (1) When and engine burns fuel each 10 gals used will manufacture some 6 > gallons more of less of new water. This comes out of the exhaust in a very > hot vapor and mixes with the air. It cools rapidly and if the humidity is > high can raise the water content of the air to over 100% and hence it will > immediately condense into a fairly permanent vapor trail. (2) The engine is > cooled by the air flowing over it or through a radiator. This heats the air, > causing it to become lighter and less dense so it will start raising into the > less dense air above it. If the humidity is right a vapor trail will start > forming in this raising air maybe some 200 feet to 1/2 mile behind the > airplane. > This type of trail alone may or may not last long. (3) When air flows over > the wing (Most wings) a low pressure area is produced. This lowers the > density of that air and if the humidity is right the air over the wing will > exceed 100% and a vapor trail will form. This is the cause of the wing tip > vapor trails that form under a high wing loading. This type of vapor trail > will not last long unless combined with cause number 1 and/or 2 and then they > can become quite permanent. as clouds go. > > Is this OK with you Dear Friend Bill Heller?. > > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 27 17:38:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:38:04 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello To All! Message-ID: Brian: I got you intro and it was perfect. You should be getting some welcome messages today from some of the guys. Please post questions. These old farts love to chat and have plenty of time on their hands, and they especially like answering questions from people your age. So ask away. All is well in Anchorage. It was good talking to you and Doug on Christmas Day several times - sort of felt like I was there. Keep the messages coming, I love hearing from you! Kevin >From: "Brian Pearson" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello To All! >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:48:37 -0600 > >Hello to all the 303rd members. My name is Brian and I am 16 yrs old. I >live >in Peoria, IL and have recently joined the 303rd group, on the advice of my >dad, Kevin Pearson. I just wanted to take this time to say hello and that I >hopefully will get to know all of you. I am very interested in history, >especially the second World War, so I am looking forward to corresponding >with you guys. Even though I haven't even come close to tasting war (knock >on wood), I still love to read and hear stories from the men who were >there. >I hope you all had a very Merry Christmas and I wish you the best of luck >in >the upcoming year. > Your New Friend in the 303rd, > Brian Pearson > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Dec 27 21:47:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:47:59 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello To All! Message-ID: t6 all on our 303rd chat line.HAPPIEST AND MOST PROSPEROUS @))@. cheers spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 28 14:29:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:29:36 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? References: Message-ID: <000701c18fac$14851f20$6f68db40@billowen> I have the same question. Seems like a long time since I have paid my dues. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? > It seems like by this time last year I got the request for yearly > 303rdbga dues in the mail. Is it late this year or did mine get lost > in the mail? I'd hate to miss an issue of the newsletter. > Thanks > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 28 19:08:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:08:53 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? References: Message-ID: <3C2CC345.C5025A91@attglobal.net> If anyone is worried that they did not receive a dues notice ... there is a solution ... just send a check. It will be appreciated. Cheer$ ... WCH Bill Jones wrote: > It seems like by this time last year I got the request for yearly > 303rdbga dues in the mail. Is it late this year or did mine get lost > in the mail? I'd hate to miss an issue of the newsletter. > Thanks > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 28 21:34:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:34:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? References: <3C2CC345.C5025A91@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000b01c18fe7$805117a0$2af07ad1@markdonn> Can you remind me what the dues are? I should owe something at this point as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? > If anyone is worried that they did not receive a dues notice ... there > is a solution ... just send a check. It will be appreciated. > > Cheer$ ... > > WCH > > Bill Jones wrote: > > > It seems like by this time last year I got the request for yearly > > 303rdbga dues in the mail. Is it late this year or did mine get lost > > in the mail? I'd hate to miss an issue of the newsletter. > > Thanks > > > > Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine wejones@megalink.net > > Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones > > WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Dec 28 22:10:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:10:44 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] yearly dues? In-Reply-To: <000b01c18fe7$805117a0$2af07ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <3C2C8B74.14260.2E4C48@localhost> > Can you remind me what the dues are? I should owe something at > this point as well. Dues are $25.00/year until the age of 78. Info is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/membership.html I'm not sure how Membership Chairman Dennis Smith collects them. I sent this on to him for a response. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 29 02:17:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dennis Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:17:59 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Membership Dues Message-ID: <3C2D27D7.F863740@pacbell.net> Information about membership dues is as following; For veterans of Molesworth between 1942 and 1945, 1) If you are now a active member in the association, and still not yet 78 years old, then your dues are $25.00 ($30.00 if living outside the US) 2) If you are now a active member in the association, and are 78 years or older, your membership if free (you are called a life member). Please contact me if you are not sure about your status. 3) For any Molesworth veteran that is just now joining the association, we request of $25.00 fee for membership and the above two items apply. If any questions about membership dues are needed, please feel free to contact me at the website under (membership@303rdBGA) or at the following address. Dennis Smith 142 Viste Drive Sonoma, CA 95476 Home Phone: 707-938-0634 Office Phone: 707-265-9712 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Dec 29 21:51:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:51:52 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Membership Dues Message-ID: <20011229215152.ZHJU13117.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> What about paid Life Members under 78? Bill Runnels B.Runnels@att.net > Information about membership dues is as following; > > For veterans of Molesworth between 1942 and 1945, > > 1) If you are now a active member in the association, and still not yet > 78 years old, then your dues are $25.00 ($30.00 if living outside the > US) > 2) If you are now a active member in the association, and are 78 years > or older, your membership if free (you are called a life member). > Please contact me if you are not sure about your status. > > 3) For any Molesworth veteran that is just now joining the association, > we request of $25.00 fee for membership and the above two items apply. > > If any questions about membership dues are needed, please feel free to > contact me at the website under (membership@303rdBGA) or at the > following address. > > Dennis Smith > 142 Viste Drive > Sonoma, CA 95476 > > Home Phone: 707-938-0634 > Office Phone: 707-265-9712 > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Dec 30 19:46:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:46:19 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] HAPPY NEW YEAR Message-ID: <000501c1916a$a80d7660$3fbb9ace@mjpmtman> To all I thank you for putting up with me. I have however learned much. It is surprising how little I knew of what was really going on while I was at Moslesworth. TO ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE FORUM--- a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! And to our most honorable President Jack Rencher. His ability with words is truly a gift. His different explanations of a subject reminds me of an old friend of mine [Zenas Leonard 1809-1857 -fur trapper and fur brigade clerk ] who said that there was no reason why a word had to be spelled one way. Jack has proved it by his numerous ways of clearly explaining one question. In wishing you a Happy New Year I hope your new year is not like the ending of my old one. My comnputer was down for 2 weeks. I picked up a bug and still feel like I been hugged by a grizzlly bear.. Picked up the computer on wed - took it back on thurs and picked it up on friday. That's the day the phone went out, called service and I then found the 3rd phone hadn't been hung up - The coffee pot blew up -- the dispose-all stopped - pushed reset button. Ducks were flying high with the wind up their tail and Texas on their mind,- Knocked two out of the flock. They were so HIGH the first one was spoiled by the time it hit the ground. The second one was OK as the Nebraska weather changed and it was frozen solid when I picked it up.. Have solved the problem -- -- I now put salt in my shot shells for a preservative. It's a fact or I wouldn't say so -- I would tell you seven different ways before I'd lie to you wonderful people. May your GREAT SPIRIT -Wakon Tonka or Tirawahat - watch over you.! May your moccasins make tracks in many snows to come and the Rainbow touch your shoulder. May your piece [rifle] shoot plumb center & your pot be filled with fat cow!!! FROM THE DIGGIN'S OF THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. M. J. PAULK 205 W 12TH ST. WOOD RIVER, NE. 68883-9164 308-583-2583 ***************** EVERY ONE LIKES TO SEE ME! SOME ON MY ARRIVAL! MOST ON MY DEPARTURE!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 31 01:47:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:47:30 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] HAPPY NEW YEAR Message-ID: <185.185f8e8.29611db2@aol.com> very subletly placed. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Dec 31 06:10:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:10:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Membership Dues Message-ID:

Dennis -

I think Eddie Deerfield forwarded my e-mail some time ago, but thought I would ask you direct. The last Newsletter I received was May 01, and I moved back to the States in July. I send a change of address but you may not have received it. Is it possible to get copies of the Newsletters I missed?

My new address is:

Brian McGuire

8132 S. 93rd St

LaVista, NE 68128

Thanks!


Brian S. McGuire
>From: Dennis Smith
>Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] Membership Dues
>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:17:59 +0000
>
>Information about membership dues is as following;
>
>For veterans of Molesworth between 1942 and 1945,
>
>1) If you are now a active member in the association, and still not yet
>78 years old, then your dues are $25.00 ($30.00 if living outside the
>US)
>2) If you are now a active member in the association, and are 78 years
>or older, your membership if free (you are called a life member).
>Please contact me if you are not sure about your status.
>
>3) For any Molesworth veteran that is just now joining the association,
>we request of $25.00 fee for membership and the above two items apply.
>
>If any questions about membership dues are needed, please feel free to
>contact me at the website under (membership@303rdBGA) or at the
>following address.
>
>Dennis Smith
>142 Viste Drive
>Sonoma, CA 95476
>
>Home Phone: 707-938-0634
>Office Phone: 707-265-9712
>
>
>

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