Party pooper.<= /DIV>

Lance Burrell

----- Or= iginal Message -----

From: Mike McClanahan

Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:12 PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs
=

Hi-

I doubt the cow story for the following reas= on. When I had the thrill of flying in
Sentimental Journey last = weekend, the loadmaster gave us plenty of instructions
before we board= ed. Among them was the admonition to not attempt to retrieve
cam= eras, jewelry, or other jetsam that might fall into the bomb bay. T= he reason he
gave was a good one. He said that the bay doors wer= e set to open any time 85 or
more pounds of pressure were applied to t= hem, and since we weren't issued 'chutes,
he advised against standing = on the doors! (I presume the trip levers were set this
way in ca= se an absent-minded bomb-dropper forgot to open the doors before "bombsaway.") So unless they figured out a way to hook the cow to the b= omb racks, I'm
afraid they'd have to stow the beast elsewhere in the p= lane before dropping it. I
doubt they'd want that kind of obstac= le in their way, not to mention the extra
weight that might be the dif= ference between clearing the runway or not.

Cute story, though.
Mike McClanahan

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C12907.E3AA8E40-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 01:42:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:42:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs References: <20010818004257.2FC4053709@pairlist.net> <3B7FFE57.E7A8C213@qwest.net> Message-ID: <006a01c12911$0c8c7900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> I think it behooves us all to never publicly ( anyway) question the veracity or quality of the Bull offered here as historical fact. I know that I would be Cowed by the mere thought. anonymous. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike McClanahan" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs > Hi- > > I doubt the cow story for the following reason. When I had the thrill of flying in > Sentimental Journey last weekend, the loadmaster gave us plenty of instructions > before we boarded. Among them was the admonition to not attempt to retrieve > cameras, jewelry, or other jetsam that might fall into the bomb bay. The reason he > gave was a good one. He said that the bay doors were set to open any time 85 or > more pounds of pressure were applied to them, and since we weren't issued 'chutes, > he advised against standing on the doors! (I presume the trip levers were set this > way in case an absent-minded bomb-dropper forgot to open the doors before "bombs > away.") So unless they figured out a way to hook the cow to the bomb racks, I'm > afraid they'd have to stow the beast elsewhere in the plane before dropping it. I > doubt they'd want that kind of obstacle in their way, not to mention the extra > weight that might be the difference between clearing the runway or not. > > Cute story, though. > > Mike McClanahan > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 07:32:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:32:19 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL References: <000501c12908$905a51c0$34bb9ace@mjpmtman> <005c01c1290d$ab601900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B80AEF4.4654AD27@attglobal.net> LG ... Most professors are STILL pompous jerks .... WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Some honest and intelligent guidance might have been helpful, but I don't > blame anyone , but myself. I agree, in some respects, Maurice. Quite a few > of the professors I had were a bunch of pompous jerks. There were others > who tried sincerely to help. I did find out that it is a very good idea to > have a plan involved in continuing your education. In my case, it was > International Affairs, but this wasn't a plan it was just a not well thought > out idea. I should have studied foriegn languages like my next door > neighbor. He got a good job with the " Goverment". > > Like I said, no going back now. I do like to hear how others overcame the > adversities, however. No man that I have spoken with here strikes me as a > failure in life. And that is encouraging. > > AT EASE ! > > Lloyd.// > > From: "Maurice Paulk" > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL > > > Howdy Lloyd : My experience was some what the same as yours.... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 07:34:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:34:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak jackets References: <3B80795C.812F87C2@sanuk.net> Message-ID: <3B80AF64.1E8500F8@attglobal.net> Sean Coppom ... I SAT on mine and your Grandpa used to chuckle over that, claiming I was trying to protect the family jewels ... Cheers! WCH Sean Coppom wrote: > Hi there everyone! > > I just started wondering after seeing Bill Jones picture of the flak > jacket what they are made of and what they would actually stop. I know > of my grandpa getting hit with a small piece of flak and being OK, but > how often did the pilots where them since I imagine they could be > uncomfortable. Thank you. > > Sean Coppom From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 07:36:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:36:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs References: Message-ID: <3B80AFE9.B1ED38EA@attglobal.net> --------------2BA5EF169D0CC7336194D867 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit McClanahan ... If POP McGilvray said it occurred, it occurred. It is no moo -t point. CHeers! VONDRA BURRELL wrote: > Party pooper.Lance Burrell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike McClanahan > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:12 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs > Hi- > > I doubt the cow story for the following reason. When I had > the thrill of flying in > Sentimental Journey last weekend, the loadmaster gave us > plenty of instructions > before we boarded. Among them was the admonition to not > attempt to retrieve > cameras, jewelry, or other jetsam that might fall into the > bomb bay. The reason he > gave was a good one. He said that the bay doors were set to > open any time 85 or > more pounds of pressure were applied to them, and since we > weren't issued 'chutes, > he advised against standing on the doors! (I presume the > trip levers were set this > way in case an absent-minded bomb-dropper forgot to open the > doors before "bombs > away.") So unless they figured out a way to hook the cow to > the bomb racks, I'm > afraid they'd have to stow the beast elsewhere in the plane > before dropping it. I > doubt they'd want that kind of obstacle in their way, not to > mention the extra > weight that might be the difference between clearing the > runway or not. > > Cute story, though. > > Mike McClanahan > > > --------------2BA5EF169D0CC7336194D867 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit McClanahan ...

If POP McGilvray said it occurred, it occurred. It is no moo -t point.

CHeers!

VONDRA BURRELL wrote:

Party pooper.Lance Burrell

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike McClanahan

Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:12 PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com

Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cow Bombs
Hi-
I doubt the cow story for the following reason. When I had the thrill of flying in
Sentimental Journey last weekend, the loadmaster gave us plenty of instructions
before we boarded. Among them was the admonition to not attempt to retrieve
cameras, jewelry, or other jetsam that might fall into the bomb bay. The reason he
gave was a good one. He said that the bay doors were set to open any time 85 or
more pounds of pressure were applied to them, and since we weren't issued 'chutes,
he advised against standing on the doors! (I presume the trip levers were set this
way in case an absent-minded bomb-dropper forgot to open the doors before "bombs
away.") So unless they figured out a way to hook the cow to the bomb racks, I'm
afraid they'd have to stow the beast elsewhere in the plane before dropping it. I
doubt they'd want that kind of obstacle in their way, not to mention the extra
weight that might be the difference between clearing the runway or not.
Cute story, though.
Mike McClanahan

--------------2BA5EF169D0CC7336194D867-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 11:00:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:00:08 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL References: <000501c12908$905a51c0$34bb9ace@mjpmtman> <005c01c1290d$ab601900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B80AEF4.4654AD27@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <003201c1295e$e5fe56c0$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> (aside) A few months ago I signed in on a discussion forum that supposedly was dedicated to Samuel Langhorn Clemens ( AKA Mark Twain). My first question to that forum was to ask if anyone might suggest a definitive biography for Mark Twain. You would have laughed to see the scholastic bombast that ensued as all vied for podium. One pedantic with ( obviously his own self-centered agenda ) suggested his book inwhich he suggested that Sam Clemens had a Gay love affair while out in California. Yes, Mr. Heller, Pomposity lives and thrives in the ivied halls of wisdom and knowlege. Then there was the professor at Emory University , Harry Rusche, who generously supplied me with the source of a long remembered poem, the verse of which I had forgotten along with the author. I posted this poem by Thomas Hardy here a few days ago. You can always find one decent dog in any litter of curs. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL > LG ... > > Most professors are STILL pompous jerks .... > > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Some honest and intelligent guidance might have been helpful, but I don't > > blame anyone , but myself. I agree, in some respects, Maurice. Quite a few > > of the professors I had were a bunch of pompous jerks. There were others > > who tried sincerely to help. I did find out that it is a very good idea to > > have a plan involved in continuing your education. In my case, it was > > International Affairs, but this wasn't a plan it was just a not well thought > > out idea. I should have studied foriegn languages like my next door > > neighbor. He got a good job with the " Goverment". > > > > Like I said, no going back now. I do like to hear how others overcame the > > adversities, however. No man that I have spoken with here strikes me as a > > failure in life. And that is encouraging. > > > > AT EASE ! > > > > Lloyd.// > > > > From: "Maurice Paulk" > > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL > > > > > Howdy Lloyd : My experience was some what the same as yours.... > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 15:24:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:24:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] BOMB SHELTERS Message-ID: <144.2400e8.28b27786@aol.com> Forgot to mention that aside from their "stoicism" there was that wonderful sense of humor in the face of udden death. What a great story. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 15:50:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:50:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ham Sandwich 12 'o'clock High! Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E43F@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Gentleman, Thank you for your reply's and clarification on the "Bovine Bombing". I hope that some of you readers got a grin from the "Cow Drop" story. Now Lloyd Grant did you think WE were going to let you slip away and not tell us "the rest of the story" pertaining to the Ham Sandwich?? Regards, Gregory Pierce 8th AFHS WA State E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 15:53:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:53:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak jackets Message-ID: <71.117c306e.28b27e79@aol.com> On the bomb run, I wore the front flak jacket and my navigator wore the back as he knelt behind me. And of course we had a few jackets possitioned on the floor. And to make "protection" complete, I slung my .45 in front...one couldn't be too careful. Unfortunately, my nav. caught a finger-sized piece that came through the nose and lost an eye (Leipzig mission Nov.30'44) All the protection in the world couldn't help if you were unlucky that day. Best Wishes, Cheers, Bob Hand (B/Fink's crew, 303/360 35m.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 15:35:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:35:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION Message-ID: <35.19920794.28b27a42@aol.com> Mornin' Lloyd...and many thanks for them fine words. I have to admit I got quite a kick seeing copy #1 come off the Docutech...breathed a sigh of relief, "At Long Last!!!" Coming up soon with a new web site with closer aims. Still a few copies left. Getting used to the bustling downtown of Johnson City...improvements everywhere, malls all over the place. Best Wishes to you, have a wonderful week! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 12:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:43:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ham Sandwich 12 'o'clock High! References: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC02D1E43F@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <005001c1296d$568deb40$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Greg, I think in actual fact it might have been a peanut butter sandwich. I don't think ham sandwiches were on the menu unless it was Christmas , or maybe, Thanksgiving. I heard the frozen sandwich story here , about a year ago. Perhaps a few of our veterans will not mind resurrecting the tale for our new members. As with the Cow Bomb story, you can bank on the veracity of any narrative you read, hear? Imagine what happens to a peanut butter sandwich when exposed to temperatuures at 40 -50 dgrees below zero. And then try to imagine what consequences might ensue if that sandwich inadvertantly was to slip from the numbed fingers of say , a waist gunner. Now imagine a really neat and tight formation of B-17s such as Mr. Heller describes as the norm in the 303rd. Greg, therein lies the makings of a pretty good story; but I will defer further comment to my faithful mentors and friends who know of these things from first hand perspectives. Lloyd. > Now Lloyd Grant did you think WE were going to let you slip away and not > tell us "the rest of the story" pertaining to the Ham Sandwich?? > > Regards, > > Gregory Pierce > 8th AFHS WA State > E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 15:46:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:46:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL Message-ID: Wasn't out of the service a week when an opportunity for an art job with two talented, nay, gifted illustrators came up and I grabbed it. Rather than return to Pratt Institute, I was put to work doing actual drawings, etc., a priceless education in itself. AS for the Bill..I "squandered" it on Flying Lessons that the Air Force wouldn't give me, alas, flying Aeroncas, Stinsons, Ercoupes until my time ran out. Never regretted a moment of the whole thing. Best wishes and Cheers! Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 17:29:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:29:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds Message-ID: Bill and all: Two Germans described the rounds bursting about the 324th BS planes on the 16.8.44 mission as the size of "wash tubs." To me, this would mean a bit bigger than silver dollars. Maybe the Luftwaffe was using .30s or something else that day. I've heard many American air crews say the .20s were the size of "golf balls." Not sure if this referred to tracer rounds or the ensuing explosions. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:26:59 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >When the Luftwaffe 20 mm burst around or near my plane, they looked like >someone sprinkling silver dollars about. Indeed, some of us even called >such >bursts "silver dollar clusters" ... > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Colin: Actually, the Germans used .20 mm and .30 mm rounds, in > > conjuntion with smaller caliber machine guns. Both came in a variety of > > uses, such as armor piercing, tracer, and fused. A good deal of the >.20s > > and .30 used in air combat had timed fuses in them, meaning when they >were > > fired, a fuse started to burn and the round exploded at a predetermined > > range set by the fuse. The fighters would close to the range set by >their > > rounds, and let them rip. I have heard Germans describe white and >greenish > > puffs of smoke as these shells exploded around our planes, but have >never > > figured out if there was a difference between the rounds having white >and > > green smoke. Anyone care to hazard a guess? > > Kevin > > > > >From: "colin.pearce@onmail.co.uk" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds > > >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:33:37 +0100 > > > > > >Whenever I read about B-17's/B-24's getting hit by 20mm rounds they >always > > >say the shell exploded. > > >Does that mean they shattered when they hit the ship? > > >Were some/all 20mm rounds designed to explode? > > >Or did the calibre come in AP,Ball, Tracer etc. in sequence as in other > > >guns e.g. the 0.50" > > >I suspect its a shatter effect but please put me right somebody. > > >watch you 6 > > >Colin > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 17:35:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:35:59 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds Message-ID: No i don't. The Luftwaffe was a master at air to air tactics, especially earlier in the war. They would sit out of the range of our .50s and lob those .20s and .30 into our ships. Then they would close, and using machine guns, rack the ships with the smaller calibre weapons. Making blanket statements would be stupid, but I'd say for the most part the Luftwaffe knew how to use it ammunition and tactics to its fullest advantage. Kevin >From: "colin.pearce@onmail.co.uk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 00:02:11 +0100 > >Kevin.Thanks. >Q. If the rounds were time fused, it would indicate that if an attack was >pressed too closely, which many were that, the attack lost some of its >'punch'. Do you think that was true? >Colin > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 17:46:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:46:26 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. Message-ID: Lloyd and all: I just finished another book, "We Band of Angels," about the nurses captured by the Japanese when the Phillipines fell. They describe the hardship and hunger they experienced. Unlike the women of Nanking, these women were not "violated." I completed that book a week ago, but eat everything in sight now after hearing how for months these ladies lived on 500 calories of rice per day. As an aside, my Dad grew up in the Depression. We were never allowed to leave the table unless our plate was clean. That's why I ended up being 60 pounds overweight until I learned I could throw food away. It was the most difficult habit I ever tried to break! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:29:50 -0400 > >Michael, > >As a young boy I was in England during the early 1950s. My father was a >career Air Force Officer, my mother was English. She was not a War Bride, >but rather, a post War Bride. > >As young as I was, I still remember the devastion in London and the >horrendous rationing. For Americans, I believe the best term to describe >their perceptions of the conditions that existed, might be " unfathomable". >Even tho, as Americans, we were well provided for, I can remember with >shame refusing to eat some food that my English great-uncle and aunt had >provided with "uncomfortable generosity" to their means. I was only about >six years old, and pretty well spoiled rotten. > >Your mums tale, is gifted with its simplicity, and comes very close to home >for me. >To this day I cannot abide to see food wasted. And will always have the >shame of my childish insoucience to remind me what it is like for brave >people to go hungry while the spoiled pick and chose according to whim and >appetite. > >Thank you for sending this. I hope many of my friends here will take a >moment to read your mums' little tale. My friend, Maurice Paulk, will >understand what I have said. > >kindest regards, sir. > >Lloyd Grant >Lakeland, Fl. >s.o.a., 427th.nav. > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Baldock" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 2:57 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. > > >Even "pinched" is an understatement regarding rationing in Great Britain in >the war years. Our economy was totally geared to the pursuit of and winning >the war with the Axis; work, food, entertainment, love - all were >completely >dominated by the war effort. A fact not much known is that rationing of >some >items in Britain went on until 1954. > >There was one other event that had a devastating effect upon the British >population - evacuation! Literally hundreds of thousands of families were >split up at the start of the war when children were compulsorily relocated >to locations hundreds of miles from their homes. Some found this a great >adventure, others were mentally scarred for life by it. > >My Mum was one of these people and she has written a short web site about >it, I hope you will forgive me advertising it here: > >http://www.jayemcee.demon.co.uk/james.htm > >The images take a while to load so please be patient. She wrote it for a >young boy named James who lives in New York because he could not understand >what things were like during that conflict. She lived in Norfolk and can >remember the armada of American aircraft flying out to Germany on a daily >basis and the airmen who touched their lives. > >I am not sure that I can understand either having had a comfortable life >and >attained the age of 43 without having had to stand in harm's way. My >grandfather fought in the trenches in France from 1915 to 1918 and he >*never* spoke of his experiences, he took them to his grave. Having read >some of the postings here I can totally understand if many of the senior >generation are inclined to do the same. > >Michael Baldock >Guildford, England > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Paulk > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 7:26 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. > > > MISTER LAUER-- iN MY ESTIMATION the British people suffered from >rationing >more the the American in the states. Mister --they were pinched.The only >meat not rationed was the organs of the animal a dn as my Btiish "mother" >said they were "quite dear" I ,. over my protests have eaten the last >poeice of meat in the house, drank the last glass of milk and eaten the >last >egg. Mom Parks made a plum pudding for Xmas one year and apologized most of >the day because she had no brandy to flame it. > > Maurice Paulk > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 17:45:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:45:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, GI Bill Message-ID: <84.19fc54d2.28b2989a@aol.com> I have nothing but good words about the GI Bill, it saved my life, so to speak. I dropped out of high school after my freshman year because I made more money working in the oil patch than most high school graduates made after high school. I didn't have much foresight but I do have 20/20 hindsight like most people. I earned a BS in business while on active duty and after I retired in 1960 I decided that I didn't want to work in that field. I went to Texas A & M to find out about the chances of my going there. I was greeted with almost loving care. I couldn't have asked for better treatment both before I registered and during my studies there. I changed major my second year with no problem and the professors couldn't have been nicer. Maybe it was because of my age, 38, but I didn't hear any complaints from the younger students. I had retired as a Major with my retired pay of about $400/month and the GI Bill provided about the same amount. All of that was not sufficient to maintain a satisfactory life style. The last year there my wife had to find employment because all of our savings were gone. I had to work and study much harder than most to maintain my grades but with the help of a lot of people, including profs, I made the Dean's list twice. As I said the GI Bill saved my life. Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 13:50:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:50:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION References: <35.19920794.28b27a42@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f901c12976$b9024ce0$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, my thoughts and hopes are with you and Nyela. One of my dearest friends is living about 35 miles outside of Nashville up in the mountains. Many moons ago when I had returned home to Floorida (sp. intentional) from a sojourn up in Colorado, I was in desperate need of work. He had just formed a construction company and was looking for skilled carpenters. I told this man the biggest pack of lies a creative writer couldn't match, and he hired me on the spot. The next day I stopped at a hardware store and bought a $3.00 hammer and picked up a complimentary cloth nail apron. We were buliding a huge two story house in some bug infested Jungle about twenty miles South of Tallahassee. After the first week he started handing out the pay checks by name to the crew. He would hand a guy a check and say, don't come back Monday. He fired half the crew that day. When he called my name I knew I was history. He said, "Grant you are a lying MF ! You don't know the first thing about carpentry. But, you are the hardest working SOB I have ever seen." He gave me a .25cent raise. Over the next two years he taught me how to build houses-- the right way. We have been friends now since 1976 and he was the best man at my wedding when I was finally taken POW after 45 years of successful escape and evasion. I am glad that I can now claim two good friends that I know in Tennessee. Very best wishes, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION > Mornin' Lloyd...and many thanks for them fine words. I have to admit I got quite a kick seeing copy #1 come off the Docutech...breathed a sigh of relief, "At Long Last!!!" Coming up soon with a new web site with closer aims. Still a few copies left. Getting used to the bustling downtown of Johnson City...improvements everywhere, malls all over the place. Best Wishes to you, have a wonderful week! Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 13:55:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:55:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds References: Message-ID: <010101c12977$6b1b8fe0$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Does anyone know where there is a picture of a 20mm round in the casing? I have a fair idea of the size, but I often get my ammunition mixed up. ( no pun intended). I would like to put the round into perspective mentally. Thanks. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds > Bill and all: Two Germans described the rounds bursting about the 324th BS > planes on the 16.8.44 mission as the size of "wash tubs." To me, this would > mean a bit bigger than silver dollars. Maybe the Luftwaffe was using .30s > or something else that day. I've heard many American air crews say the .20s > were the size of "golf balls." Not sure if this referred to tracer rounds > or the ensuing explosions. > Kevin > > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds > >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:26:59 -0700 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >When the Luftwaffe 20 mm burst around or near my plane, they looked like > >someone sprinkling silver dollars about. Indeed, some of us even called > >such > >bursts "silver dollar clusters" ... > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi Colin: Actually, the Germans used .20 mm and .30 mm rounds, in > > > conjuntion with smaller caliber machine guns. Both came in a variety of > > > uses, such as armor piercing, tracer, and fused. A good deal of the > >.20s > > > and .30 used in air combat had timed fuses in them, meaning when they > >were > > > fired, a fuse started to burn and the round exploded at a predetermined > > > range set by the fuse. The fighters would close to the range set by > >their > > > rounds, and let them rip. I have heard Germans describe white and > >greenish > > > puffs of smoke as these shells exploded around our planes, but have > >never > > > figured out if there was a difference between the rounds having white > >and > > > green smoke. Anyone care to hazard a guess? > > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "colin.pearce@onmail.co.uk" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds > > > >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:33:37 +0100 > > > > > > > >Whenever I read about B-17's/B-24's getting hit by 20mm rounds they > >always > > > >say the shell exploded. > > > >Does that mean they shattered when they hit the ship? > > > >Were some/all 20mm rounds designed to explode? > > > >Or did the calibre come in AP,Ball, Tracer etc. in sequence as in other > > > >guns e.g. the 0.50" > > > >I suspect its a shatter effect but please put me right somebody. > > > >watch you 6 > > > >Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 18:06:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:06:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: <38.1aafa3ea.28b29d89@aol.com> --part1_38.1aafa3ea.28b29d89_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike McClanhan RE: Rigid Cow story. The cow couldn't have been loaded on the bomb bay doors. The doors fold open and could not have been closed with the weight of a young heifer attached to them. Your forget the ingenuity of the WWI American airmen. It would have been an easy task to attach a heifer to the bomb bay shackles Pop McGilvary was a big and strong man and with the help of a few of his crewmen could have lifted the heifer to the desired level in the bomb bay. If Pop was still alive he would have embellished his story, with great delight, to include just how his crew managed to load the dead cow into the bomb bay and release it over Germany with or without the bombs. You might also be suprised at how many crews took delight in dropping bags or containers of frozen excrement over Germany on one or more occasion on a planned or necsssity basis. Pop's story is, as you relate, a good story. Like many good war stories I find it more pleasurable to believe than in disbelieving or being doubtful. Harry D. Gobrecht Harry D. Gobrecht. --part1_38.1aafa3ea.28b29d89_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike McClanhan
RE: Rigid Cow story.
The cow couldn't have been loaded on the bomb bay doors.
The doors fold open and could not have been closed with the weight of a young
heifer attached to them.
Your forget the ingenuity of the WWI American airmen.
It would have been an easy task to attach a heifer to the bomb bay shackles
Pop McGilvary was a big and strong man and with the help of a few of his
crewmen could have lifted the heifer to the desired level in the bomb bay.
If Pop was still alive he would have embellished his story, with great
delight, to include just how his crew managed to load the dead cow into the
bomb bay and
release it over Germany with or without the bombs.
You might also be suprised at how many crews took delight in dropping bags or
containers of frozen excrement over Germany on one or more occasion on a
planned or necsssity basis.
Pop's story is, as you relate, a good story. Like many good war stories I
find it more pleasurable to believe than in disbelieving or being doubtful.

Harry D. Gobrecht

Harry D. Gobrecht. --part1_38.1aafa3ea.28b29d89_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 14:15:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:15:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. References: Message-ID: <010b01c1297a$28f24700$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> In response to your comment, Kevin. I am reminded of the sign at the Smorgasboard, " Please take all you can eat, but Please, eat all that you take." My first GI Bill check was about three months late arriving when I returned to college. Those were some lean times and as I mentioned earlier , jobs were scarce in a College town, but you could always find the odd job here and there if you were hungry enough. One afternoon while out on a foraging trip, I found this little puppy. It was a stray, nothing but rib-bones poking thru its little hide. I took this dog back to my apartment and shared what little grub I had with it. One morning a gal that worked as a waitress at the local steak house stopped by with a huge sack of steak scraps which she proceeded to feed to this puppy while I watched. I will never forget that. She later adopted the puppy when I got chucked out for being behind on the rent. That dog had a charmed life.---- just an anecdote about food and being hungry. thanks for obliging me. Cheers. G. Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. > Lloyd and all: I just finished another book, "We Band of Angels," about the > nurses captured by the Japanese when the Phillipines fell. They describe > the hardship and hunger they experienced. Unlike the women of Nanking, > these women were not "violated." I completed that book a week ago, but eat > everything in sight now after hearing how for months these ladies lived on > 500 calories of rice per day. > > As an aside, my Dad grew up in the Depression. We were never allowed to > leave the table unless our plate was clean. That's why I ended up being 60 > pounds overweight until I learned I could throw food away. It was the most > difficult habit I ever tried to break! > Kevin > > >To this day I cannot abide to see food wasted. And will always have the > >shame of my childish insoucience to remind me what it is like for brave > >people to go hungry while the spoiled pick and chose according to whim and > >appetite. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 18:33:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:33:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs References: <38.1aafa3ea.28b29d89@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B8149F9.ECE0C788@attglobal.net> --------------34E8DCB189E3A8E7CC8EE21C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry G ... I once dropped a brick over Berlin which had been sent me by John B. Kelly (Grace's Father) for whom I worked prior to the war. He was in the Brickwork Business, and built such edicfices as the Pittsburgh Gulf Building, the Hangars at LaGuardia and many others to include some buildings at Rockefeller Center in NYC ... His brick was "signed" by many of his Superintendents. When I came home from the War (the one we won) ... John B gave me a check for $500 on which he had inscribed, "For advertising Kelly For Brickwork over Berlin Germany" ... It was a gesture appreciated. Kelly and his family were great people. I used to visit them often. If Pop McGilvray said it, it HAPPENED! Cheers! WCH Pilot8thAF@aol.com wrote: > Mike McClanhan > RE: Rigid Cow story. > The cow couldn't have been loaded on the bomb bay doors. > The doors fold open and could not have been closed with the weight of > a young > heifer attached to them. > Your forget the ingenuity of the WWI American airmen. > It would have been an easy task to attach a heifer to the bomb bay > shackles > Pop McGilvary was a big and strong man and with the help of a few of > his > crewmen could have lifted the heifer to the desired level in the bomb > bay. > If Pop was still alive he would have embellished his story, with great > > delight, to include just how his crew managed to load the dead cow > into the > bomb bay and > release it over Germany with or without the bombs. > You might also be suprised at how many crews took delight in dropping > bags or > containers of frozen excrement over Germany on one or more occasion on > a > planned or necsssity basis. > Pop's story is, as you relate, a good story. Like many good war > stories I > find it more pleasurable to believe than in disbelieving or being > doubtful. > > Harry D. Gobrecht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harry D. Gobrecht. --------------34E8DCB189E3A8E7CC8EE21C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry G ...

I once dropped a brick over Berlin which had been sent me by John B. Kelly (Grace's Father) for whom I worked prior to the war. He was in the Brickwork Business, and built such edicfices as the Pittsburgh Gulf Building, the Hangars at LaGuardia and many others to include some buildings at Rockefeller Center in NYC ... His brick was "signed" by many of his Superintendents. When I came home from the War (the one we won)
... John B gave me a check for $500 on which he had inscribed, "For advertising Kelly For Brickwork over Berlin Germany" ... It was a gesture appreciated. Kelly and his family were great people. I used to visit them often.

If Pop McGilvray said it, it HAPPENED!

Cheers!

WCH

Pilot8thAF@aol.com wrote:

Mike McClanhan
RE: Rigid Cow story.
The cow couldn't have been loaded on the bomb bay doors.
The doors fold open and could not have been closed with the weight of a young
heifer attached to them.
Your forget the ingenuity of the WWI American airmen.
It would have been an easy task to attach a heifer to the bomb bay shackles
Pop McGilvary was a big and strong man and with the help of a few of his
crewmen could have lifted the heifer to the desired level in the bomb bay.
If Pop was still alive he would have embellished his story, with great
delight, to include just how his crew managed to load the dead cow into the
bomb bay and
release it over Germany with or without the bombs.
You might also be suprised at how many crews took delight in dropping bags or
containers of frozen excrement over Germany on one or more occasion on a
planned or necsssity basis.
Pop's story is, as you relate, a good story. Like many good war stories I
find it more pleasurable to believe than in disbelieving or being doubtful.
Harry D. Gobrecht

Harry D. Gobrecht.

--------------34E8DCB189E3A8E7CC8EE21C-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 14:23:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:23:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION References: <35.19920794.28b27a42@aol.com> <00f901c12976$b9024ce0$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <011101c1297b$54898760$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Sorry for the abbreviations. This message was supposed to have been sent direct to Mr. Hand, not posted. My apologies. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: "Art Miller" Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION > Bob, my thoughts and hopes are with you and Nyela. One of my dearest > friends is living about 35 miles outside of Nashville up in the mountains. > Many moons ago when I had returned home to Floorida (sp. intentional) from > a sojourn up in Colorado, I was in desperate need of work. He had just > formed a construction company and was looking for skilled carpenters. I > told this man the biggest pack of lies a creative writer couldn't match, and > he hired me on the spot. The next day I stopped at a hardware store and > bought a $3.00 hammer and picked up a complimentary cloth nail apron. We > were buliding a huge two story house in some bug infested Jungle about > twenty miles South of Tallahassee. After the first week he started handing > out the pay checks by name to the crew. He would hand a guy a check and > say, don't come back Monday. He fired half the crew that day. When he > called my name I knew I was history. He said, "Grant you are a lying MF ! > You don't know the first thing about carpentry. But, you are the hardest > working SOB I have ever seen." He gave me a .25cent raise. > Over the next two years he taught me how to build houses-- the right way. > We have been friends now since 1976 and he was the best man at my wedding > when I was finally taken POW after 45 years of successful escape and > evasion. > > I am glad that I can now claim two good friends that I know in Tennessee. > > Very best wishes, sir. > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION > > > > Mornin' Lloyd...and many thanks for them fine words. I have to admit I > got quite a kick seeing copy #1 come off the Docutech...breathed a sigh of > relief, "At Long Last!!!" Coming up soon with a new web site with closer > aims. Still a few copies left. Getting used to the bustling downtown of > Johnson City...improvements everywhere, malls all over the place. Best > Wishes to you, have a wonderful week! Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 14:29:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:29:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, GI Bill References: <84.19fc54d2.28b2989a@aol.com> Message-ID: <011d01c1297c$27807ca0$d1904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks , Mr. Dallas. Perserverance pays off when you have the right support. Congratulations, sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, GI Bill > I have nothing but good words about the GI Bill, it saved my life, so to > speak. > I dropped out of high school after my freshman year because I made more money > working in the oil patch than most high school graduates made after high > school. I didn't have much foresight but I do have 20/20 hindsight like most > people. > I earned a BS in business while on active duty and after I retired in 1960 I > decided that I didn't want to work in that field. I went to Texas A & M to > find out about the chances of my going there. I was greeted with almost > loving care. I couldn't have asked for better treatment both before I > registered and during my studies there. I changed major my second year with > no problem and the professors couldn't have been nicer. Maybe it was because > of my age, 38, but I didn't hear any complaints from the younger students. I > had retired as a Major with my retired pay of about $400/month and the GI > Bill provided about the same amount. All of that was not sufficient to > maintain a satisfactory life style. The last year there my wife had to find > employment because all of our savings were gone. I had to work and study much > harder than most to maintain my grades but with the help of a lot of people, > including profs, I made the Dean's list twice. As I said the GI Bill saved my > life. > Bill D. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 19:11:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:11:34 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The GI Bill In-Reply-To: <005201c1290a$f542ebe0$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> References: <45.af70ee2.28b16350@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010820081134.0092abb0@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd Grant, Thank you for your overstated but appreciated comments about me and the GI Bill. You know that I feel very strongly that the GI Bill was one of the finest and most effecive piece of legislation ever passed. The PBS Home Video of their program about it is well worth the $19.95 they charge for it. I hope they rerun the program sometime. Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 19:15:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:15:26 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL In-Reply-To: <3B80AEF4.4654AD27@attglobal.net> References: <000501c12908$905a51c0$34bb9ace@mjpmtman> <005c01c1290d$ab601900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010820081526.0092b940@ilhawaii.net> At 11:32 PM 8/19/01 -0700, you wrote: >LG ... > >Most professors are STILL pompous jerks .... > >WCH As are some ex-pilots... JW From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 19:47:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:47:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: <72.eb15f6d.28b2b545@aol.com> bill he built high rise apartment building in richmond,va., "THE 5100". some years later the exterior bricks started falling off the walls. then discovered that the keys to masonry had been left out causing bricks to ease away from structure as it expanded with heat and cold oppostes. all exterior brick had to be removede and entirely rebricked. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 21:28:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:28:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. Message-ID: Lloyd: My Dad use to also tell me if I didn't eat this or that on my plate, some little Chinaman would starve to death. So I did. When my son was six years old, I told that same story to him. One day he looked up at me with the most sincere look and said, "Yeah, Dad, name me one!" My dear ol' Dad grew up during the depression and lived on a farm. They had it better than most city dwellers, living in some of the richest farm ground in Central Illinois. But my Pappy told me stories of all they had for a day was bread with sugar and milk. You never left my Father's table until EVERYTHING was consumed that you took. He didn't care if you ate for twelve hours or didn't eat a thing, but if you left anything on your plate, ANYTHING, there was hell to pay. One day when I was 11, I took a chicken back from the platter of chicken. Unbenounced to me, that was my father's favorite piece of the bird. I ate what I could, finished everything else, then left the table. My father called me back in the kitchen to ask why I had left so much meat on the bones of that back. For the next 30 minutes I had to pick that back apart and scrape every atom off the bones of that bird. Today, some lawyer would call that mental cruelty. But let me tell you, I can never eat a piece of chicken until it is perfectly clean. Fortunately, I had a Father that knew the meaning of value. And he knew how to drive home a point so you NEVER forgot. My Pappa was a drill instructor in the Marine Corps. Life was tough with this guy, but I learned more from him in 18 years (mostly while hating his guts) than I have since leaving his home 26 years ago! K >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:15:17 -0400 > >In response to your comment, Kevin. I am reminded of the sign at the >Smorgasboard, " Please take all you can eat, but Please, eat all that >you >take." > >My first GI Bill check was about three months late arriving when I returned >to college. Those were some lean times and as I mentioned earlier , jobs >were scarce in a College town, but you could always find the odd job here >and there if you were hungry enough. One afternoon while out on a foraging >trip, I found this little puppy. It was a stray, nothing but rib-bones >poking thru its little hide. I took this dog back to my apartment and >shared what little grub I had with it. One morning a gal that worked as a >waitress at the local steak house stopped by with a huge sack of steak >scraps which she proceeded to feed to this puppy while I watched. I will >never forget that. She later adopted the puppy when I got chucked out for >being behind on the rent. That dog had a charmed life.---- just an >anecdote >about food and being hungry. > >thanks for obliging me. >Cheers. G. > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. > > > > Lloyd and all: I just finished another book, "We Band of Angels," about >the > > nurses captured by the Japanese when the Phillipines fell. They >describe > > the hardship and hunger they experienced. Unlike the women of Nanking, > > these women were not "violated." I completed that book a week ago, but >eat > > everything in sight now after hearing how for months these ladies lived >on > > 500 calories of rice per day. > > > > As an aside, my Dad grew up in the Depression. We were never allowed to > > leave the table unless our plate was clean. That's why I ended up being >60 > > pounds overweight until I learned I could throw food away. It was the >most > > difficult habit I ever tried to break! > > Kevin > > > > > >To this day I cannot abide to see food wasted. And will always have >the > > >shame of my childish insoucience to remind me what it is like for brave > > >people to go hungry while the spoiled pick and chose according to whim >and > > >appetite. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 21:41:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:41:58 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL References: <000501c12908$905a51c0$34bb9ace@mjpmtman> <005c01c1290d$ab601900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3.0.5.32.20010820081526.0092b940@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <3B817616.97688F94@attglobal.net> Jim Walling .... Isn't it nice to have the last word .... Cheers! Jim Walling wrote: > At 11:32 PM 8/19/01 -0700, you wrote: > >LG ... > > > >Most professors are STILL pompous jerks .... > > > >WCH > > As are some ex-pilots... > > JW From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 21:46:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:46:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ham Sandwich 12 'o'clock High! Message-ID: Lloyd: Most of the guys I know carried their food inside of their electrically heated suits to keep them from freezing. Many carried the PB&Js under their armpit (wrapped, of course)! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ham Sandwich 12 'o'clock High! >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:43:30 -0400 > >Greg, I think in actual fact it might have been a peanut butter sandwich. >I don't think ham sandwiches were on the menu unless it was Christmas , or >maybe, Thanksgiving. I heard the frozen sandwich story here , about a year >ago. Perhaps a few of our veterans will not mind resurrecting the tale for >our new members. As with the Cow Bomb story, you can bank on the veracity >of any narrative you read, hear? > >Imagine what happens to a peanut butter sandwich when exposed to >temperatuures at 40 -50 dgrees below zero. And then try to imagine what >consequences might ensue if that sandwich inadvertantly was to slip from >the >numbed fingers of say , a waist gunner. Now imagine a really neat and >tight >formation of B-17s such as Mr. Heller describes as the norm in the 303rd. >Greg, therein lies the makings of a pretty good story; but I will defer >further comment to my faithful mentors and friends who know of these things >from first hand perspectives. > >Lloyd. > > > Now Lloyd Grant did you think WE were going to let you slip away and not > > tell us "the rest of the story" pertaining to the Ham Sandwich?? > > > > Regards, > > > > Gregory Pierce > > 8th AFHS WA State > > E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 01:25:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:25:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] Mr Prencher URGENT (2nd send) Message-ID: <10.11363464.28b30461@aol.com> Colin, I am just reading some of my e-mail from two days ago. I'm sorry but I am getting around 40 each day and I am just behind. I work full time and keep 4 sets of books one of which is the 303rd Bomb Group. Believe me I am not the least bit offended by anything you have said or asked. I think I know everything about B17s but know I am wrong about that. I am 80 but blessed with a perfect memory. I can't remember anything I have ever forgotten. I would love to talk to you in person and if you are coming to the Washington reunion lets try to get together and chew the lean. I have to watch my weight so I can't chew the fat. As long as you keep it fairly clean you can ask me anything you want to. I have over 20,000 hours, a lot of which is in B17s. I am a licensed A & P aircraft mechanic, a journeyman Machinist and a certified welder. I flew 35 Missions with the 303rd during 1944 as a Pilot and copilot. During my 6 yrs in Army Air Corps I flew all the single engine fighters we had at that time (No jets) and was checked out in most all the 4 engines we had. I am single. My wife of 51 years died 2 and a half years ago so I cook and keep house but not very well. I was trained in advanced to fly P38s and the reason I was put in B17s is a military secret, But I learned to love them. Now you know me. Ask away Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 01:44:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:44:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk] Mr Prencher URGENT (2nd send) Message-ID: <9f.1a1d2a67.28b308d5@aol.com> that's our jack. just a super 303rder. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 22:21:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:21:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The GI Bill References: <45.af70ee2.28b16350@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.20010820081134.0092abb0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <002201c129be$0a498540$ec8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jim Walling. As you may suspect, my respect for you, knows no bounds. And the same is true with regards to every veteran here. When I was down you did not desert me. When I was wrong, you set me straight, When I complained you said, good luck, and get a life, and suggested ways to do it. When I asked for information you went out of your way to provide it. I sincerely hope that ALL of you know how much I appreciate your friendship and comradery. Just knowing you is an inspiration to defy the odds and succeed. You don't get a medal for this, nor a plaque, nor a certificate. But, if undying friendship and loyalty still count for anything; I have that to give. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" > Lloyd Grant, > > Thank you for your overstated but appreciated comments about me and the GI Bill. You know that I feel very strongly that the GI Bill was one of the finest and most effecive piece of legislation ever passed. The PBS Home > Video of their program about it is well worth the $19.95 they charge for it. I hope they rerun the program sometime. > > Jim Walling From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 22:51:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:51:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. References: Message-ID: <003201c129c2$37af15a0$ec8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Kevin. Funny how you begin to learn more about your friends and their personalities by making a simple remark, and then Listening. I have a great deal of respect for your contributions and questions on this forum. I have also learned that you are sincere in preserving the History. We have not always agreed on some points, but , I think that is a healthy and productive aspect of our commitment to learn the truth as best it can be told. Alas, people still go hungry every day, even in this Land of Plenty. I am resolved to appreciate the life I have . Best regards, sir. Lloyd. ps. I sent that same China Man a box of asparagus and Brussel Sprouts, and some Cracker Jacks to help choke "em down . To this day he has never written to say thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. > Lloyd: My Dad use to also tell me if I didn't eat this or that on my plate, > some little Chinaman would starve to death. So I did. When my son was six > years old, I told that same story to him. One day he looked up at me with > the most sincere look and said, "Yeah, Dad, name me one!" > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 20 23:12:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:12:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL References: <000501c12908$905a51c0$34bb9ace@mjpmtman> <005c01c1290d$ab601900$861b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3.0.5.32.20010820081526.0092b940@ilhawaii.net> <3B817616.97688F94@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <005101c129c5$31779060$ec8f4d0c@o3n4f8> To have the 'Last" word is a trifling event; to resolve the ' first ' word is an undertaking of genuine diplomacy. ( Coyote Manifesto ). With respect to each of my friends; pomposity is a human foible. At one time , or , another we are all charged with it. In many cases deservedly so. Every man can reform himself with the help of a mirror if he is not afflicted with 'blindness'. Peace, brothers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] G. I. BILL > Jim Walling .... > > Isn't it nice to have the last word .... > > Cheers! > > Jim Walling wrote: > > > At 11:32 PM 8/19/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >LG ... > > > > > >Most professors are STILL pompous jerks .... > > > > > >WCH > > > > As are some ex-pilots... > > > > JW > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 04:05:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:05:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: --part1_cc.19b2196d.28b32a0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, You may find this of interest. My first duty station was the former site of Jack Kelly's Brickyard in northeast Philadelphia. The Admiral's Quarters was a rather imposing two story building located in the southeast corner of the old Brickyard. At one time this structure was the office of the Kelly Brickyard. If you have ever seen the innumerable rowhouses in northeast Philadelphia, you may have noticed how similar the brickwork appeared. This is how Grace Kelly's father made his money. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_cc.19b2196d.28b32a0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller,

      You may find this of interest. My first duty station was the former
site of Jack Kelly's Brickyard in northeast Philadelphia. The Admiral's
Quarters was a rather imposing two story building located in the southeast
corner of the old Brickyard. At one time this structure was the office of
the Kelly Brickyard. If you have ever seen the innumerable rowhouses in
northeast Philadelphia, you may have noticed how similar the brickwork
appeared. This is how Grace Kelly's father made his money.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_cc.19b2196d.28b32a0f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 04:40:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:40:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Search on for Glenn Miller's Airplane Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DA3@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> > I thought you'd be interested in this article from today's NY Post. I had > heard this story about the fisherman locating a wreck that could have been > the Miller Norseman a while ago, but it seemed not to go anywhere after > that. Now the BBC is involved. It would be amazing if they did find it > after all this time, although in a very large way I would not want any > human remains to be there. > SEA HUNT FOR GLENN MILLER PLANE IS SET > > By BILL HOFFMANN > > New York Post, Monday August 13, 2001 > > > August 13, 2001 -- Divers are planning an ambitious deep-sea expedition to > locate the remains of jazz legend Glenn Miller, whose plane crashed over > the English Channel in 1944. > The famed bandleader was declared lost at sea when his flight from England > to France vanished without a trace 57 years ago. > Mike Rossiter, a BBC producer, decided to recruit a team of expert divers > to search for the wreckage after a fisherman contacted him, claiming to > know the exact location of the crash. > "It appears that this fisherman has trawled up a part of Miller's plane > and knows where it is within a pretty small area," a member of the project > team said. > "[Rossiter] is very keen on finding Miller's plane and, hopefully, Miller > himself." > If the wreck is found, it could provide clues as to whether the plane was > shot down by enemy pilots or crashed because of mechanical error - > something that has never been known. > Miller's sister-in-law Ann Miller said she doubts the wreck will ever be > located. > "Nobody has ever found him and each time they try it is mentally upsetting > for us," she said. > Miller - whose big band cranked out such standards as "In the Mood," > "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" and "Pennsylvania 6-5000" - gave up his showbiz > career to enter the Army Air Corps, precursor of the Air Force, in World > War II. > In December 1944, Miller - who had set up an Air Corps band for the > military - was set to transfer to Paris. > His band arrived for a Christmas broadcast, but Miller himself was lost in > a small plane over the Channel on Dec. 15. > Miller's life was made into a hit movie, "The Glenn Miller Story," > starring James Stewart, in 1954. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 04:44:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:44:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Glenn Miller (More information) Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DA4@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Hello again, This is a really good personal comment from Len on the Miller mystery, and also a great personal anecdote from his wife. The question is whether the bombs hit the Norseman or whether the explosions in the water destabilized the plane and caused it to crash . There has always been a lot of speculation regarding the disappearance. The most interesting I found was in a 1988 book, The Bedford Triangle by Martin Bowman, which documents espionage operations from England in WWII , including the Carpetbaggers. There is a whole chapter (Ch. 16) on the Miller disappearance with all the theories, including the bomb salvo one, and here is where I first saw the account of how Miller and Baesell made it to Paris and were murdered in a black market-related dispute (some evidence suggests that Baesell, a Service Command colonel, was heavily involved in it.) The chapter also has some of the "wilder" stuff such as that Miller's overseas broadcasts were used by the Psychological Warfare Division for experimentation with subliminal messages (not the overt "signals" by phrases and choices of songs), that Miller got crossed up with the OSS and was murdered, and there may even be two Norsemans! In any case, we'll see!! Here's a note from a friend about the fateful night of Glenn Miller's death... I admire you for the work and interest you have shown in so many things related to events in WWII. I am very interested in any news relating to Glenn Miller and the attempt to recover the plane Glenn Miller flew in when it crashed in the Channel. I recall his plane missing on about December 16, 1944. I was stationed in England at that time waitin to fly my first bombing mssion. The weather was brutal. Most Allied bombers were grounded and the battle of the Bulge had started. There were few planes in the air, especially American planes. I was flying bombing missions shortly after his plane was missing. I was in a B-17 and our planes bombed in daylight at that time. We always flew in formation when flying towards Germany as well as returning. The British flew at night and when they returned from a bombing mission there was NO formation and they looked like a flock of birds flying in no particular formation. Many times both American and British planes had to drop bombs in the channel when they couldn't drop the bombs over the target. This particular day, one of the British planes had to do just that, salvo the bombs in the channel. As a Bombardier, I did this once and had to salvo the bombs before we reached England. We could not land in England with a load of armed bombs. That was the custom. This day when one British plane salvoed their bombs, Miller's plane was in the vicinity flying at a much lower altitude than the bombers. The British crewman who dropped the bombs, years later, announced that he saw his bombs hit a small plane but never reported it. Ever since this news came out, there has been speculation as to whether it was Miller's plane. Personally, I would say there was an excellent chance that it was because not only was Miller's small plane flying in that vicinity, but it had to be early in the dawn with no other planes like that flying, especially over the channel with the weather as bad as it was. Unless there is an attempt to retrieve the plane, this guessing game can go on into infinity. If the British are willing to do this search, I say let them before anymore time elapses. The waters are cold in that area and there is a reasonable chance that the plane has been preserved. The currents probably shifted the wreckage and I think it would be unlikely if all of Miller's plane could be salvaged. I would like to think it could against all odds just to bring this mystery to a close. The following is just an interesting bit of trivia. My wife Mary worked for the U.S Air Force in Atlantic City where Glenn Miller was stationed briefly. She was assigned and had the privilege of typing his orders to be sent overseas. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 00:54:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:54:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: <000901c129d3$71cd4200$e78f4d0c@o3n4f8> How did you feel about debriefings ( what a silly term for post mission analysis, in modern parlance, PMA). I will presume that in most cases you were at the least, pretty tired out. In some exuberant. Then in others perhaps " heart-sick". After "debriefing where did you go? Who analyzed the debriefings? Did the information you passed on have any effect on the planning of the next mission? Lloyd. Brief, but not De Briefest. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 06:08:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:08:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] powdered eggs and spam Message-ID: Maurice - Powdered eggs & spam is a wonderful sounding bit of fare for those looking forward to an early morning combat mission. (This could also make a good title for a Dr Seuss book.) More seriously - did those scheduled for missions receive a more palatable menu and if so what may it have been? Regards, Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 06:29:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:29:48 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Looking for Angelo L. Longo References: Message-ID: <000501c12a02$4e0a8ce0$ef2664d8@computer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tooley, Dave" To: "303rd Email List (E-mail)" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Looking for Angelo L. Longo > List, > I sent this request to the 303rd guest book earlier. My uncle served with > an Angelo L. Longo in the 427th in early '43. He is only one of two > survivors of that crew. I am trying to get in touch with him or a family > member to exchange info and photos. Angelo flew a second tour of 35 > missions later in the war, but I don't know with what group. > > If anyone can be of help, I would greatly appreciate it. > Thanks!!!! > Dave > > Dave: I am Ed Lamme, bombardier with Strickland crew in the 427th. I knew Longo and even met with him at the Norfolk reunion, I forget the year. Our Radio Operator, Al Martel was a very close friend of Longo's and I am quite sure was acquainted with his family so if there is any info, he would be the most likely person to have it. I believe that Longo passed away, but am not sure. Sorry to have taken this long to answer but have been slightly incapacitated. Martel's address is gayleh@telplus.net and mail address is at 26 Clark St., Lincoln, ME 04457. If you have any other questions, I will be happy to try and answer. My Email is junned@humboldt1.com in Eureka CA. Good luck. Ed> > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 07:50:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:50:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs References: Message-ID: <3B8204AC.B6E352F1@attglobal.net> --------------FF687199A23B74B93D0A3E08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JJenkins ... Thanks the information. I worked for Kelly for three years, right out of High School and until I went into the US Army Air Corps. I used to drive Grace to dancing school and was a dinner guest and house guest at their home in East Falls many many times. He sent me to evening school At Drexel ... and except for the war, expected me to stay with him. The fellow who took my job when I went away to war, remained with Kelly (since I did not come back there, having opted for the airlines instead) .. He retired as Senior Executive Vice President at a ripe old age. They were a fine family. Kelly even financed my first airplane which I owned prior to my 20th birthday. Cheers! WCH JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller, > > You may find this of interest. My first duty station was the > former > site of Jack Kelly's Brickyard in northeast Philadelphia. The > Admiral's > Quarters was a rather imposing two story building located in the > southeast > corner of the old Brickyard. At one time this structure was the > office of > the Kelly Brickyard. If you have ever seen the innumerable rowhouses > in > northeast Philadelphia, you may have noticed how similar the brickwork > > appeared. This is how Grace Kelly's father made his money. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------FF687199A23B74B93D0A3E08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JJenkins ...

Thanks the information. I worked for Kelly for three years, right out of High School and until I went into the US Army Air Corps. I used to drive Grace to dancing school and was a dinner guest and house guest at their home in East Falls many many times. He sent me to evening school At Drexel ... and except for the war, expected me to stay with him. The fellow who took my job when I went away to war, remained with Kelly (since I did not come back there, having opted for the airlines instead) .. He retired as Senior Executive Vice President at a ripe old age. They were a fine family. Kelly even financed my first airplane which I owned prior to my 20th birthday.

Cheers!

WCH

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller,
You may find this of interest. My first duty station was the former
site of Jack Kelly's Brickyard in northeast Philadelphia. The Admiral's
Quarters was a rather imposing two story building located in the southeast
corner of the old Brickyard. At one time this structure was the office of
the Kelly Brickyard. If you have ever seen the innumerable rowhouses in
northeast Philadelphia, you may have noticed how similar the brickwork
appeared. This is how Grace Kelly's father made his money.
Best Wishes,
John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA 98052 USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------FF687199A23B74B93D0A3E08-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 08:54:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:54:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: <88.b289dea.28b36da7@aol.com> Lloyd, I don't remember any particular feelings about debriefings. It was just part of the job and I feel a very very important one. It conveyed what we learned, observed, experienced and did and what went on during the mission. Intelligence and Command learned about our enemy, our weaknesses in tactics, equipment, formations, success and failures and why. They made possible, planning that improved methods, equipment and whether we had to go back and bomb that target again tomorrow. Without them how would we have learned from our fellow crews mistakes? What we learned in a briefing before a mission was often something very important, someone else passed on at yesterdays debriefing. I think it was an OK name. It didn't matter what we called it. Its what we learned from each other. Good Night Lloyd, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 09:29:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:29:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: Lloyd, After my last two letters to you I see I didn't answer your questions. I will now. I suppose most of us went to the latrine and then hit the sack. Maybe the mess hall, the club or even the poker game. We were all different. Lots of people studied the defriefing reports. It depended on what was on them. Intelligence, engineering, command, and probably the Germans. I would like to have studied theirs. I've forgotten your last question but I hope you get the picture. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 09:37:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:37:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: <90.1910fdef.28b377df@aol.com> Lloyd, Answer to your last question. Yes,. Maybe. Maybe the next several missions. It depending on what was said on yours and the others debriefing report and how important it was and what we could do about it & what the brass thought was the cost/benifit ratio etc. etc. and etc. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 09:13:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:13:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: <97.1a20b86b.28b37212@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd: I like you. I don't mean this in any way as a slam. It just occurred to me why sometimes my answers seem to make you young fellows feel we are offended. We aren't so please don't feel I am by this. When you ask us questions you sometimes follow them by several possible "multiple choice" answers. These answers are often so far off base from the way we feel or think we get a big kick out of them to say the least and hence make some smart wise crack instead of giving you a straight answer. Keep the peace old buddy, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 13:33:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:33:39 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission Message-ID: <20010821123340.IDPE26461.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> De-briefings were part of the mission routine. It was a time to reflect on the days activity, a time for a cup of coffee and a time to be thankful for a safe return. Following debriefing we stored equipment, changed clothes and headed for the Mess Haul for a late dinner. Following dinner we cleaned our gun barrels ( 360th Squadron ) then on to the barracks, read our mail and hit the sack to rest for the next day......Bill > How did you feel about debriefings ( what a silly term for post mission > analysis, in modern parlance, PMA). I will presume that in most cases you > were at the least, pretty tired out. In some exuberant. Then in others > perhaps " heart-sick". After "debriefing where did you go? Who analyzed > the debriefings? > Did the information you passed on have any effect on the planning of the > next mission? > > Lloyd. > Brief, but not De Briefest. > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 11:21:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:21:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission References: <88.b289dea.28b36da7@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c12a2b$0e3fb120$b38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, Thank you for your reply x 4. I think what a lot of us try to do in posing these questions is to attempt to get a mental image of a particular scene. Of course it is impossible to get a clear idea because you can't mix all the shades, smells, and background noises into a typewritten message. I for one, having learned over time, try to think thru my questions as carefully as possible before asking them. I try to ensure that if I ask a question of you guys that there is some reasonable purpose behind it. I notice than one thing I need to work on is "editorializing" the questions I ask, ie. referring to the debriefing as " post mission analysis". Sometimes I have to laugh at myself. In a message I wrote to the group yesterday I referred to you older fellows as mentors ( trusted guides and counselors ) . The implication being that us younger types rely on you not just for information, but also for some leadership and guidance. I am always glad to hear what ever any of you have to say, and heed your advice. So , I will just reiterate, Thank you. Well, I am late for my post mission analysis, Jack, so I will be on my way. See you again soon. Cheers, Lloyd. ---- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission > Lloyd, I don't remember any particular feelings about debriefings. It was > just part of the job and I feel a very very important one. It conveyed what > we learned, observed, experienced and did and what went on during the > mission. Intelligence and Command learned about our enemy, our weaknesses in > tactics, equipment, formations, success and failures and why. They made > possible, planning that improved methods, equipment and whether we had to go > back and bomb that target again tomorrow. Without them how would we have > learned from our fellow crews mistakes? What we learned in a briefing before > a mission was often something very important, someone else passed on at > yesterdays debriefing. I think it was an OK name. It didn't matter what we > called it. Its what we learned from each other. Good Night Lloyd, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 11:28:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:28:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission References: <20010821123340.IDPE26461.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <002901c12a2c$08e46d00$b38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Runnnels, Thank you , sir. I was just doing some "post message analysis" on my question and feel that it could have been better phrased. I appreciate your reply as it helps to put a little color into the black and white image that I have. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission > De-briefings were part of the mission routine. It was a > time to reflect on the days activity, a time for a cup > of coffee and a time to be thankful for a safe return. > Following debriefing we stored equipment, changed > clothes and headed for the Mess Haul for a late dinner. > Following dinner we cleaned our gun barrels ( 360th > Squadron ) then on to the barracks, read our mail and > hit the sack to rest for the next day......Bill > > How did you feel about debriefings ( what a silly term for post mission > > analysis, in modern parlance, PMA). I will presume that in most cases you > > were at the least, pretty tired out. In some exuberant. Then in others > > perhaps " heart-sick". After "debriefing where did you go? Who analyzed > > the debriefings? > > Did the information you passed on have any effect on the planning of the > > next mission? > > > > Lloyd. > > Brief, but not De Briefest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 16:15:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:15:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the airwar as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they way it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. Twelve O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis Belle was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial to the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie was very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire thing. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 12:50:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 07:50:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers Message-ID: <000f01c12a37$71775b60$e3904d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Pearsons' question has provoked me to ask this one: Were there full time combat photographers assigned to the group? I mean men whose sole purpose was to get combat footage /flight footage on film. I am aware that the ground forces had men in this role, but I have not heard much said about combat photographers in the Air Force, with the exception of Clark Gables early efforts. If anyone has information on this topic, I would be very interested to hear your responses. Thank you. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 17:25:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:25:37 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers Message-ID: Hi Lloyd: Can't speak for other Bomb Groups, but the 91st did have a full time photo intellegence officer. This man developed and interpreted stike photos, as well has had cameras on many of the ships. He has a collection of well over 1500 pics taken from the war, and some movie footage. e also shot many pics using his own camera of the base, planes, crews, etc. I'm sure you know about Andy Rooney, Walter Cronkite and the rest of the journalists that covered the air war. Rooney I think was with Star and Stripes. He and the rest of the journalists flew a few combat missions until, again I think, one or two of them got killed in combat, then the brass put a stop to that. Rooney spells it all out in his book. I'm sure there were many amateur cameras on board many of the planes from almost all of the groups, even though this was strictly against orders. Not sure if I helped much, but I gave it a shot. Sorry for not having the exact details. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 07:50:13 -0400 > >Mr. Pearsons' question has provoked me to ask this one: > >Were there full time combat photographers assigned to the group? I mean >men >whose sole purpose was to get combat footage /flight footage on film. I am >aware that the ground forces had men in this role, but I have not heard >much said about combat photographers in the Air Force, with the exception >of >Clark Gables early efforts. If anyone has information on this topic, I >would be very interested to hear your responses. >Thank you. > >Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 17:32:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:32:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Debriefing after mission References: <88.b289dea.28b36da7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B828D10.31800AE7@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... A somewhat silly question answered very very eloquently by you. Good on you. Cheers! WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Lloyd, I don't remember any particular feelings about debriefings. It was > just part of the job and I feel a very very important one. It conveyed what > we learned, observed, experienced and did and what went on during the > mission. Intelligence and Command learned about our enemy, our weaknesses in > tactics, equipment, formations, success and failures and why. They made > possible, planning that improved methods, equipment and whether we had to go > back and bomb that target again tomorrow. Without them how would we have > learned from our fellow crews mistakes? What we learned in a briefing before > a mission was often something very important, someone else passed on at > yesterdays debriefing. I think it was an OK name. It didn't matter what we > called it. Its what we learned from each other. Good Night Lloyd, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 17:40:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie References: Message-ID: <3B828F09.54C65459@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson ... Command Decision. Cheers! Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the airwar > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they way > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. Twelve > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis Belle > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial to > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie was > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire thing. > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 18:21:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:21:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RICH YOUNG--POWDERED EGGS Message-ID: <000801c12a65$bcbf4640$32bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12A3B.D257EFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RICH---Being a non combatant [Sgt -. Air Corps Supply] the only answer I = can give you on your query of flight crew's breakfast would be from the = rumor mill. It wasn't told to me -- I only heard!!! the flight crew had = REAL eegs on the morning of a mission. MAURICE PAULK ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12A3B.D257EFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

RICH---Being a non combatant [Sgt -. = Air Corps=20 Supply] the only answer I can give you on your query of flight crew's=20 breakfast would be from the rumor mill. It wasn't told to me -- I = only=20 heard!!! the flight crew had REAL eegs on the morning of a = mission.

MAURICE = PAULK

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12A3B.D257EFE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 18:13:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:13:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers In-Reply-To: <000f01c12a37$71775b60$e3904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <200108211720.f7LHKtL11499@ns1.megalink.net> > Were there full time combat photographers assigned to the group? I mean men > whose sole purpose was to get combat footage /flight footage on film. I am > aware that the ground forces had men in this role, but I have not heard > much said about combat photographers in the Air Force, with the exception of > Clark Gables early efforts. If anyone has information on this topic, I > would be very interested to hear your responses. I'd be interested in hearing about this too, although I think the answer is undoubtedly yes, there were photographers. If you go through the personnel lists, and mission loading lists, you see a bunch of photographers listed. So many that it is really strange that there isn't much more film footage available today than there is. For example, I was trying to figure out just when the combat footage in the Gable movie was taken, since it is apparent that most of it was not taken the day he flew with the 303rd. So I made a list of the planes that could be identified on the film, and went to the 303rd CDROM, and found the dates that those planes flew together, and came up with Aug 15 1943. So I checked the crew lists for that mission, and sure enough, there were something like 5 photographers and 7 observers flying on that mission. So obviously photographers did fly on missions, although I don't know how common it was. Also I think every mission had cameras on board that were triggered by the crew during the bomb runs, and I've heard stories of regular crew members being handed a camera and told to take pictures. Also, at least later in the war, nearly every squadron apparently had about 3 planes that carried K-21 and K-22 cameras, which I beleive are basically the same basic large format camera body with different focal length lenses. Apparently the camers with the shorter focal length were hand held, but I think this same camera body could be used for the bomb damage cameras with a real long lens. For a few pictures of cameras and photographers, go to : http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/cameras.html Plus there were photographers from the news media, Life Magazine, National Geographic, etc, etc, that flew on missions, including women photographers. I hope others with information will add to this. Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 18:18:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:18:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers Message-ID: Speaking of photos; in the Mission Report for Mission #301 it states that = the waist gunner of #42-97944 took a picture of what is believed to be = #42-107099 (Old 99) exploding in air. If that picture still exits does = anyone know if it is posted and where it might be? Thanks, Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 20:06:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:06:24 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Hi Bill: This is a new one on me. I thought I'd seen every air war movie made at least 100 times! Can you give me the plot in a nutshell? I can't say I've ever seen this movie for sale in the specialty magazines. I'll look for it. One movie I neglected to mention in my first post is Target for Today. That was on an equal plane with Wylder's Memphis Belle! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 > >Kevin Pearson ... > >Command Decision. > >Cheers! > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the >airwar > > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they >way > > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. >Twelve > > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis >Belle > > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial >to > > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. > > > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. > > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie >was > > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire >thing. > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 20:12:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:12:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Is that the one with Clark Gable? If so that was on last night. And there is some beautiful footage of 17s carrying the BIG Triangle C! Yes, that was a really good movie, if that is Command Decision. But, and please correct me if I am wrong, one person did not have the ultimate responsibility for target selection, did they? From what I've read, Eaker, Doolittle, Spatz or whoever was in charge would get his top advisors together to decide where to go. Everything was considered in order to minimize losses, or at least that is what I have read. In the movie with Gable, it sounded like he looked at Air War Plans Directives and arbitrarily picked his targets base on AWPD. Wasn't there much more thought and consideration that went into target selection? Baffled? Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 > >Kevin Pearson ... > >Command Decision. > >Cheers! > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the >airwar > > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they >way > > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. >Twelve > > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis >Belle > > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial >to > > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. > > > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. > > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie >was > > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire >thing. > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 20:18:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:18:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Kevin, You did see the right movie (Command Decision) the other night. You can buy it on VHS at Amazon.com for $18.00. Takes a week or two to get. That is terrific movie! I especially like the interaction between Gable and Van Johnson's characters. Dave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 21:39:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:39:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Van Johnson is timeless. I especially liked him in Battleground, him and the Sarge. Another good air war pic is Battle of Britain. I'm also a huge fan of submarine movies! Kevin >From: "Tooley, Dave" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:18:52 -0500 > >Kevin, >You did see the right movie (Command Decision) the other night. You can >buy >it on VHS at Amazon.com for $18.00. Takes a week or two to get. That is >terrific movie! I especially like the interaction between Gable and Van >Johnson's characters. > >Dave > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 22:04:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:04:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie References: Message-ID: <3B82CCCA.D9282D98@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Yes, I believe Gable was in Command Decision. As to whether or not ONE person made the top decision as to which target, etc., you must realize that in the military ONE man ALWAYS makes the final decision, but only after conferring with Staff and other Officers. I give you Ike on D-Day. "Committees" are a thing of today and NOT when things were done properly. No committee ever invented anything. A good commander makes the FINAL decision. after, as I said, conferring with his Staff. Cheers! WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Is that the one with Clark Gable? If so that was on last night. And there > is some beautiful footage of 17s carrying the BIG Triangle C! Yes, that was > a really good movie, if that is Command Decision. > > But, and please correct me if I am wrong, one person did not have the > ultimate responsibility for target selection, did they? From what I've > read, Eaker, Doolittle, Spatz or whoever was in charge would get his top > advisors together to decide where to go. Everything was considered in order > to minimize losses, or at least that is what I have read. In the movie with > Gable, it sounded like he looked at Air War Plans Directives and arbitrarily > picked his targets base on AWPD. Wasn't there much more thought and > consideration that went into target selection? > Baffled? > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie > >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 > > > >Kevin Pearson ... > > > >Command Decision. > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the > >airwar > > > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they > >way > > > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. > >Twelve > > > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis > >Belle > > > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial > >to > > > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. > > > > > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. > > > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie > >was > > > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire > >thing. > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 21 22:00:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:00:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie References: Message-ID: <3B82CBE6.A5153D89@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Can't recall much of it. Title: Command Decision. Brian Donlevy was in it and a few other heavies. Cannot even recall the decade in which it was shown. I am certain if you search, you will find it. I found it the best air war movie, and it WAS about the 8th AF. And, many of the scenes were done by Bergeron and I in certain formation flying and Group landings. We had a Motion Picture Unit at our Base. I think they were the ones who gave us the Base Theatre in appreciation for the work many of us did. This Motion Picture Unit was acrting in the guise of making "training films" (which they did) but they were actually building a morgue to use in post war movies. Cheers! Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hi Bill: This is a new one on me. I thought I'd seen every air war movie > made at least 100 times! Can you give me the plot in a nutshell? I can't > say I've ever seen this movie for sale in the specialty magazines. I'll > look for it. > > One movie I neglected to mention in my first post is Target for Today. That > was on an equal plane with Wylder's Memphis Belle! > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie > >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 > > > >Kevin Pearson ... > > > >Command Decision. > > > >Cheers! > > > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about the > >airwar > > > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected they > >way > > > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. > >Twelve > > > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis > >Belle > > > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been partial > >to > > > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines through. > > > > > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great Escape. > > > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that movie > >was > > > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the entire > >thing. > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 00:57:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:57:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] powdered eggs and spam Message-ID: <15.196314d4.28b44f67@aol.com> WHEN we were schudled for a mission we got fresh eggs while the ground crew got "dried" eggs. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 01:11:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (george frecther) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:11:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers References: Message-ID: <005001c12a9e$f6ecd4c0$f88ba818@nj.rr.com> To answer the question of breakfast for crews on mission days, Yes , we were given fresh eggs and some sort of meat. If you wern't flying it was powered eggs. As to combat photography, several times I was give a camera to take pictures of what I thought would be of interest. For example of a fort going down, a fighter plane coming in, planes flying along side and if possible the bomb area after we turned and left. I was a navigator in the 427th on James Melton's crew George (Harry) Frechter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duke Drewry" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Combat photographers Speaking of photos; in the Mission Report for Mission #301 it states that the waist gunner of #42-97944 took a picture of what is believed to be #42-107099 (Old 99) exploding in air. If that picture still exits does anyone know if it is posted and where it might be? Thanks, Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 03:25:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:25:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D. TOOLEY ----- MOVIE Message-ID: <001201c12ab1$a7fae420$41bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C12A87.BDF6BC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DAVE T.--- You mentioned the Battle of Bbritain -- I saw a show by that = name on the History channel which was very good. The name jarred my = memory chip___ Saw a show in England with Leslie Howard playing the part = of the designer of the Supermarine sea plane which later developed into = the Spitfire.. Runs in my mind the name of it was "First Of The Few". I = have a tape of that same movie but the Americn version is "Spitfire" I = still like to get it out and watch my own rerun!!!! Most of the movies = I saw in England I never new what was going on . The two exceptions were = "First Of The Few" and Leslie Howard's "The Scarlet Pimpernel". MAURICE PAULK ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C12A87.BDF6BC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

DAVE T.--- You mentioned the = Battle of=20 Bbritain -- I saw a show by that name on the History = channel=20 which was very good. The name = jarred my=20 memory chip___ Saw a show in England with Leslie Howard playing the part = of the=20 designer of the Supermarine sea plane which later developed into the = Spitfire..=20 Runs in my mind the name of it was "First Of The Few". I have a tape of = that=20 same movie but the Americn version is "Spitfire" I still like to = get it out=20 and watch my own rerun!!!! Most of the movies I saw in = England I=20 never new what was going on . The two exceptions were "First Of The Few" = and=20 Leslie Howard's "The Scarlet Pimpernel".

MAURICE = PAULK

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C12A87.BDF6BC60-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 05:05:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Laura Cunningham) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] talk list In-Reply-To: <002901c12a2c$08e46d00$b38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: Please remove me from your e-mail list. Thank you. Laura Cunningham From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 07:30:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:30:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: <22.1aaa6608.28b4aba3@cs.com> --part1_22.1aaa6608.28b4aba3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, It must have been tough duty driving Grace Kelly around. The limited information I have discovered concerning the older and younger Jack Kellys indicate that both were involved in rowing. From what I can recall the Schuylkill River was the regional center of rowing activities. By the time I arrived at the former Kelly Brickyard, the Navy had changed the name of the place to the Naval Aviation Supply Office. There were some turf battles between the two star Navy admiral at the Aviation Supply Office and the one star Air Force general at one of the tenant commands. During WWII the Aviation Supply Office was known as the Naval Supply Depot. Many Philadelphia natives still referred to the Aviation Supply Office as 'the Depot' more than three decades later. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_22.1aaa6608.28b4aba3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller,
      It must have been tough duty driving Grace Kelly around. The limited
information I have discovered concerning the older and younger Jack Kellys
indicate that both were involved in rowing. From what I can recall the
Schuylkill River was the regional center of rowing activities.
      By the time I arrived at the former Kelly Brickyard, the Navy had
changed the name of the place to the Naval Aviation Supply Office. There
were some turf battles between the two star Navy admiral at the Aviation
Supply Office and the one star Air Force general at one of the tenant
commands. During WWII the Aviation Supply Office was known as the Naval
Supply Depot. Many Philadelphia natives still referred to the Aviation
Supply Office as 'the Depot' more than three decades later.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_22.1aaa6608.28b4aba3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 14:24:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:24:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION Message-ID: <65.196fef74.28b50c81@aol.com> Lloyd, thanks for that great letter...just the inspirational thing for early in the AM. Would write more, but we're off to a 10AM funeral. Then it's back home to find out why the ceiling's leaking in that spot, cuss it all. Have a wonderful day...will stay in touch. Cheers,Bob and Nyela (pronounced ny-ee-lah...a name her mother gave her, relates to opera or something.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 14:28:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:28:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ham Sandwich 12 'o'clock High! Message-ID: <95.f299541.28b50d74@aol.com> Even more deadly than the frozen peanutbutter sandwich in flight was the fuse-can "mini-in-flight-toilet" brim full and safely cast into the slipstream....ooohh, that must have hurt. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 14:31:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:31:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] 20mm rounds Message-ID: <2d.1063eba2.28b50e39@aol.com> Lloyd, probably in "The Great Book of World War II Airplanes, by Bonanza, superb illustrations by R. Watanabe. This is a ten-pounder worth every cent. Best to you and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 12:24:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:24:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC Message-ID: <000701c12afd$09a9cce0$3a914d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks to all for your input on "Post Mission Analysis", and "Real Time Aerial Warfare Cinematography" ( aka debriefing and combat photography). With the talent available here, I wonder if we could produce a decent documentary about the original Four Horsemen Groups and their WWII history (FHGWH). If this might be considered feasible, I would like to be appointed executive director of abbreviations and anagrams ( EDAA ). LDL (let's do lunch) and discuss the project (DP) BR, ( best regards) LG ( make up your own) Cheers. ps anyone remember the WWI film " Hells' Angels", I thought that movie was pretty good too if you don't mind reading the subtitles and listening piano music in the background. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 15:54:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:54:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers Message-ID: <001101c12b1a$5c7fada0$373f22d1@billowen> Subject: Photographers Lloyd Grant, in reference to photographers...yes, they did have men who were assigned as photographers. Don't know what kind of cameras were used or where they sat or stood on the plane. James Stringer was a photographer with the Palmer crew, which made it an eleven man crew, when shot down on 6-25-43. I looked up his missions quite some time ago and sent them to him. He was one of the fortunate four who made it out of the plane. He was listed as a photographer on all but two of his missions and he flew with all four Squadrons. Here is his record that I mailed to James. He was 19 years old at the time. > Regards, Bill Owen DATE TARGET PILOT (PLANE) SQUADRON 1-13-43 Lille, France Billy Southworth (Bad Check) 427th...Gunner 1-23 Lorient & Brest, France Lewis Lyle (Ooold Soljer) 360th...Photo 2-2 Hamm, Germany Carl Morales (Sky Wolf) 358th...Photo ( entire mission aborted- solid overcast, poor visability and extreme cold) 2-16 St. Nazaire, France Harold Stouse (The Duchess) 359th...Radio 2-26 Wilhelmshaven, Germany Donald Stockton (Bad Check) 427th... Photo ( plane aborted mission- #1 > engine running rough) 2-27 Brest, France John Farrar (Yardbird ll) 360th...Photo 3-8 Rennes, France George Oxrider (Yankee Doodle Dandy) 358th...Photo 3-28 Rouen, France Irl Baldwin (Hell's Angels) 358th...Photo 3-31 Rotterdam, Holland Robert Nolan (Jersey Bounce, Jr.) 358th...Photo 4-16 Lorient, France ( listed as being on this mission but I couldn't find Stringer listed on any of the crews.) 6-22 Huls, Germany Armand Burch (Winning Run) 427th...Photo 6-23 Villocoublay, France Joseph Palmer (The Avenger) 360th...Photo. (mission was recalled after reaching target area. Solid overcast.Couldn't locate target. Some planes were attacked by fighters and flak) 6-25 Hamburg, Germany Joseph Palmer (The Avenger) 360th...Photo. Bombed target. Shot down by FW 190 over Netherlands. James, the plane "Hell's Angels", which you flew on 3-28-43 became the most famous of all the 303rd aircraft. It was the first B-17 in the 8th Air Force to complete 25 missions. The "Memphis Belle" was given credit for that honor but "Hell's Angels" beat them by about a week. The 303rd later took the nickname "Hell's Angels" in honor of that plane. It went on to fly over 40 missions without ever getting any damage or getting any crewman injured. Best wishes, Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 17:26:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:26:21 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie Message-ID: Hi Bill: Thanks on the info on the movie. I will look for it. I went into Yahoo and did a search on "War Movies," selected WWII, and there were almost 200 of them. I used to think the 91st had the most media and movie footage shot at their base and of their planes, but now that I have been watching for the BIG Triangle C, it seems more was shot at and of Molesworth, her men and planes. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:00:23 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >Can't recall much of it. Title: Command Decision. Brian Donlevy was in it >and a >few other heavies. Cannot even recall the decade in which it was shown. I >am >certain if you search, you will find it. I found it the best air war movie, >and >it WAS about the 8th AF. And, many of the scenes were done by Bergeron and >I in >certain formation flying and Group landings. We had a Motion Picture Unit >at >our Base. I think they were the ones who gave us the Base Theatre in >appreciation for the work many of us did. This Motion Picture Unit was >acrting >in the guise of making "training films" (which they did) but they were >actually >building a morgue to use in post war movies. > >Cheers! > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Hi Bill: This is a new one on me. I thought I'd seen every air war >movie > > made at least 100 times! Can you give me the plot in a nutshell? I >can't > > say I've ever seen this movie for sale in the specialty magazines. I'll > > look for it. > > > > One movie I neglected to mention in my first post is Target for Today. >That > > was on an equal plane with Wylder's Memphis Belle! > > Kevin > > > > >From: William Heller > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Best Air War Movie > > >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:40:42 -0700 > > > > > >Kevin Pearson ... > > > > > >Command Decision. > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > > > Hi guys: In your opinion, what is the best movie ever made about >the > > >airwar > > > > as you knew it? By this I mean what movie most accuratly reflected >they > > >way > > > > it was. We all know how inaccurate the remake of Memphis Belle was. > > >Twelve > > > > O'clock High was a bit on the dramiatic side. The Original Memphis > > >Belle > > > > was very good, but in some cases inaccurate. I've always been >partial > > >to > > > > the War Lover with Steve McQueen, but again Hollywood shines >through. > > > > > > > > I think my all time favorite movie about the airwar is The Great >Escape. > > > > Although Hollywood took some liberties with history, much of that >movie > > >was > > > > very accurate. Every time that movie is on, I sit through the >entire > > >thing. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 13:16:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:16:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <001101c12b1a$5c7fada0$373f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <000201c12b0a$24d523e0$ad8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Owen. Bill thank you. I suspected that this was the case, but you seldom find any mention of Air Force combat photographers in the History books. Like Bill Jones, I am wondering why more of the footage has not survived, or if it has, where it is stored. The Molesworth tape made quite a lot of stops, but it left much to be desired. I wonder how a full length video of the 303rd that was more in depth, and maybe had some sound would be recieved. Well, hats off to the combat photographers in all branches who went into combat armed with only a movie camera. But for them, we might not have had any visual resources to reference. I bet they filled in when necessity required it of them also. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Owen" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:54 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > > > Subject: Photographers > > > Lloyd Grant, in reference to photographers...yes, they did have men who > were assigned as photographers. Don't know what kind of cameras were used or > where they sat or stood on the plane. James Stringer was a photographer with > the Palmer crew, which made it an eleven man crew, when shot down on > 6-25-43. I looked up his missions quite some time ago and sent them to him. > He was one of the fortunate four who made it out of the plane. He was listed > as a photographer on all but two of his missions and he flew with all four > Squadrons. Here is his record that I mailed to James. He was 19 years old at > the time. > > Regards, Bill Owen > > DATE TARGET PILOT (PLANE) SQUADRON > > 1-13-43 Lille, France Billy Southworth (Bad > Check) > 427th...Gunner > > 1-23 Lorient & Brest, France Lewis Lyle (Ooold Soljer) > 360th...Photo > > 2-2 Hamm, Germany Carl Morales (Sky Wolf) > 358th...Photo ( entire mission aborted- solid overcast, poor visability > and extreme cold) > > 2-16 St. Nazaire, France Harold Stouse (The Duchess) > 359th...Radio > > 2-26 Wilhelmshaven, Germany Donald Stockton (Bad Check) 427th... > Photo ( plane aborted mission- #1 > engine running rough) > > 2-27 Brest, France John Farrar (Yardbird ll) > 360th...Photo > > 3-8 Rennes, France George Oxrider (Yankee Doodle > Dandy) 358th...Photo > > 3-28 Rouen, France Irl Baldwin (Hell's Angels) > 358th...Photo > > 3-31 Rotterdam, Holland Robert Nolan (Jersey Bounce, Jr.) > 358th...Photo > > 4-16 Lorient, France ( listed as being on this mission but I > couldn't find Stringer listed on any of the crews.) > > 6-22 Huls, Germany Armand Burch (Winning Run) > 427th...Photo > > 6-23 Villocoublay, France Joseph Palmer (The Avenger) > 360th...Photo. (mission was recalled after reaching target area. > Solid overcast.Couldn't locate target. Some planes were attacked by > fighters and flak) > > 6-25 Hamburg, Germany Joseph Palmer (The Avenger) > 360th...Photo. Bombed target. Shot down by FW 190 over > Netherlands. > > James, the plane "Hell's Angels", which you flew on 3-28-43 became the most > famous of all the 303rd aircraft. It was the first B-17 in the 8th Air Force > to complete 25 missions. The "Memphis Belle" was given credit for that > honor but "Hell's Angels" beat them by about a week. The 303rd later took > the nickname "Hell's Angels" in honor of that plane. It went on to fly over > 40 missions without ever getting any damage or getting any crewman injured. > > Best wishes, Bill Owen > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 18:34:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:34:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs References: <22.1aaa6608.28b4aba3@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B83ED13.2C93E62D@attglobal.net> --------------8C23423D1630D803EBDC9C83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ... Grace was quite young at that time. In fact, at one evening at the Kelly home, we were playing in the game room and doing that old saw of "Musical Chairs" and having missed a chair several times, I picked her up and then danced AND we made a chair! Both Kellys, John B. (the senior) and young Kell (the junior) DID row. When John B. won the Henley Regatta (or whatever it was named, in Britain, many decades ago) he was denied the prize for he had worked with his hands ... as a bricklayer. He then vowed to send a son back there one day to WIN the Regatta and wear an Irish Green Cap while doing so. Young Kell DID, and you may recall when at the end, one of the competitors, a Czech, I believe, collapsed and young Kell dove in and brought him out. Philadelphia's East River Drive is now named Kelly Drive, which I always thought it should have many years ago. They are almost all gone. Peggy is still around, I believe, as is LizAnne, the youngest. When I lived in Rome, Italy several years after the war (the one we won), Grace came through Rome enroute to or from Africa from making the film "Mogambo" with Gable. She stayed at the Excelsior Hotel on the via Veneto, and we visited briefly. My experiences with that family are very fine. It was enjoyable working for them and knowing them. John B., was Commodore of the Schuylkill Navy along Boathouse Row on East River Drive. He used to row there a few miles every other day or so long after he retired. He had won the Diamond Skulls at the Olympics in the 20s. Many fond memories. Do not we all have them? Cheers! Bill Heller JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller, > It must have been tough duty driving Grace Kelly around. The > limited > information I have discovered concerning the older and younger Jack > Kellys > indicate that both were involved in rowing. From what I can recall > the > Schuylkill River was the regional center of rowing activities. > By the time I arrived at the former Kelly Brickyard, the Navy > had > changed the name of the place to the Naval Aviation Supply Office. > There > were some turf battles between the two star Navy admiral at the > Aviation > Supply Office and the one star Air Force general at one of the tenant > commands. During WWII the Aviation Supply Office was known as the > Naval > Supply Depot. Many Philadelphia natives still referred to the > Aviation > Supply Office as 'the Depot' more than three decades later. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------8C23423D1630D803EBDC9C83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ...

Grace was quite young at that time. In fact, at one evening at the Kelly home, we were playing in the game room and doing that old saw of "Musical Chairs" and having missed a chair several times, I picked her up and then danced AND we made a chair!

Both Kellys, John B. (the senior) and young Kell (the junior) DID row. When John B. won the Henley Regatta (or whatever it was named, in Britain, many decades ago) he was denied the prize for he had worked with his hands ... as a bricklayer. He then vowed to send a son back there one day to WIN the Regatta and wear an Irish Green Cap while doing so. Young Kell DID, and you may recall when at the end, one of the competitors, a Czech, I believe, collapsed and young Kell dove in and brought him out.

Philadelphia's East River Drive is now named Kelly Drive, which I always thought it should have many years ago. They are almost all gone. Peggy is still around, I believe, as is LizAnne, the youngest.

When I lived in Rome, Italy several years after the war (the one we won), Grace came through Rome enroute to or from Africa from making the film "Mogambo" with Gable. She stayed at the Excelsior Hotel on the via Veneto, and we visited briefly.

My experiences with that family are very fine. It was enjoyable working for them and knowing them.

John B., was Commodore of the Schuylkill Navy along Boathouse Row on East River Drive. He used to row there a few miles every other day or so long after he retired. He had won the Diamond Skulls at the Olympics in the 20s.

Many fond memories. Do not we all have them?

Cheers!

Bill Heller

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller,
      It must have been tough duty driving Grace Kelly around. The limited
information I have discovered concerning the older and younger Jack Kellys
indicate that both were involved in rowing. From what I can recall the
Schuylkill River was the regional center of rowing activities.
      By the time I arrived at the former Kelly Brickyard, the Navy had
changed the name of the place to the Naval Aviation Supply Office. There
were some turf battles between the two star Navy admiral at the Aviation
Supply Office and the one star Air Force general at one of the tenant
commands. During WWII the Aviation Supply Office was known as the Naval
Supply Depot. Many Philadelphia natives still referred to the Aviation
Supply Office as 'the Depot' more than three decades later.
Best Wishes,
John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------8C23423D1630D803EBDC9C83-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 19:27:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:27:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:- RATIONING. Message-ID: <109.47ad4cd.28b55394@aol.com> Kevin: For cuisine beyond description, try l'Orphanage 1936-1941. Indescribable! Bread and mollasses, crusted cornmeal cereal, watery scrambled eggs. Only the POWs ate worse. But we survived and learned to appreciate the good stuff. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 19:39:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:39:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC References: <000701c12afd$09a9cce0$3a914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <007401c12b39$c085a9c0$22f833cf@richards> Lloyd: How did you get to see the first version of Hells Angles ? The final version in which the Producer Howard Hughes discovered the blond bombshell Jean Harlow was done as one of the first sound movies.Harry Gorbrecht has a copy. Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 4:24 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > Thanks to all for your input on "Post Mission Analysis", and "Real Time > Aerial Warfare Cinematography" ( aka debriefing and combat photography). > > With the talent available here, I wonder if we could produce a decent > documentary about the original Four Horsemen Groups and their WWII history > (FHGWH). If this might be considered feasible, I would like to be > appointed executive director of abbreviations and anagrams ( EDAA ). > > LDL (let's do lunch) and discuss the project (DP) > > BR, ( best regards) > LG ( make up your own) Cheers. > > ps anyone remember the WWI film " Hells' Angels", I thought that movie was > pretty good too if you don't mind reading the subtitles and listening piano > music in the background. > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 20:14:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:14:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" Message-ID: <000901c12b3e$9e286a20$0dbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C12B14.B4AA8960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is stretching my memory a bit!!!!-------1927 [I was 6] Paramount = released "Wings" - silent adventure. [typed in "wings movie" on Google = to find a VHS tape for $12.95] The stars were Clara Bow [the IT girl] , = Gary Cooper, Richard Arlen, and Charles "Buddy" Rogers. [[This = information from the web]] If memory serves me correctly Richard Arlen = played Jack the lead and his best friend was David who died in the show. = And that is the rest of the story!!! oThink I saw poart of it on TV a = year or so ago. Maybe history channel???? Also was impressed with "Lafayette Escadrille" in the 40s or 50s. Maurioce Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C12B14.B4AA8960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is stretching my memory a = bit!!!!-------1927=20 [I was 6] Paramount released "Wings" - silent adventure. [typed in = "wings movie"=20 on Google to find a VHS tape for $12.95] The stars = were Clara=20 Bow [the IT girl] , Gary Cooper, Richard Arlen, and Charles "Buddy" = Rogers.=20 [[This information from the web]] If memory serves me correctly Richard = Arlen=20 played Jack the lead and his best friend was David who died in the show. = And=20 that is the rest of the story!!! oThink I saw poart of it on TV a year = or so=20 ago. Maybe history channel????

Also was impressed with "Lafayette = Escadrille" in=20 the 40s or 50s.

Maurioce = Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C12B14.B4AA8960-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 20:45:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:45:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers Message-ID: <90.192d1493.28b565c0@aol.com> --part1_90.192d1493.28b565c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know about photographers assigned to fly with aircrews on combat missions, but I remember being given a hand camera to take pictures while on missions and, I know that there were always cameras mounted in a well behind the bomb bays and we were instructed to have the radio operator turn it on at the IP. I was told that if I asked for them when I was leaving the group I could have copies of photographs to take with me. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to go for them because I was told to pack my belongings with minutes notice to catch a B17 for transport to the staging area in late May, 1944. Bombardier, Bob Finley --part1_90.192d1493.28b565c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know about photographers assigned to fly with aircrews on combat
missions, but I remember being given a hand camera to take pictures while on
missions and, I know that there were always cameras mounted in a well behind
the bomb bays and we were instructed to have the radio operator turn it on at
the IP. I was told that if I asked for them when I was leaving the group I
could have copies of photographs to take with me. Unfortunately, I didn't
have time to go for them because I was told to pack my belongings with
minutes notice to catch a B17 for transport to the staging area in late May,
1944.                                        Bombardier, Bob Finley         --part1_90.192d1493.28b565c0_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 22:40:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:40:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] scouter plane on March 15 1945 Message-ID: <200108222149.f7MLnXL22644@ns1.megalink.net> I'm still interested in learning just what the 303rd's scouter B-17s did. However in scanning through the CDROM, I ran across the March 15 1945 mission. On this mission, the scouter aircraft is listed as having a crew of only 3 people, the Pilot, a radio operator, and a tailgunner! I assume that this must be a mistake on the CDROM, because Might in Flight says that Col Sipes flew on the scouter plane that day, and he wasn't listed. But I'm interested in 2 things, first, what was the correct crew that day, and secondly, what was the minimum crew that could fly on a mission, assuming that no bombs are carried, which I assume to be the case with such a scouter plane. Most of the other scouter crews included a Pilot, Co-pilot, engineer, gunner and a navigator or two, and sometimes a radio operator or gunner, ie usually 6 people, sometimes 5. I assume that to fly the plane, you'd need a pilot and co-pilot, and I think that for an 8 hour mission that a navigator and engineer would be essential. Could you fly to and from a target with only 4 people, ie such as the 3 listed above plus Col Sipes? Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 19:18:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:18:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC References: <000701c12afd$09a9cce0$3a914d0c@o3n4f8> <007401c12b39$c085a9c0$22f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000e01c12b36$e85382e0$7b1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Dick Smith. Hello, Dick. Thank you for writing. Yes, I believe I saw that Movie, but not more than once. You are right, it was a very good movie and some of the best WWI pilots participated in the aerial scenes. I think, but I could easily be wrong, that there was also a silent movie made entitled "Hells Angels". I am glad you jogged my memory. I am going to make it a point to rent the Howard Hughes version and watch it again. If I remember correctly , both films were chiefly focused on fighter pilots. I know you were both a B-17 pilot and later a P-51 pilot. This year I worked as a volunteer at the EAA Museum here in Lakeland during the Sun & Fun Fly-In. ( I met some outstanding people, incidently. And thoroughly enjoyed the experience). The Museum has an entire section devoted to Howard Hughes. He was a weird Son of a Gun, but definately worthy of respect when it came to aviation. I never personally met Mr. Hughes , unfortunately, as it seems our mutual schedules never seemed to coincide. I regret that to some extent. Oh, well. Anything new to see on your website, Dick? I have misplaced the URL. My respects, sir, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Smith" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > Lloyd: > How did you get to see the first version of Hells Angles ? The final version > in which the Producer Howard Hughes discovered the blond bombshell Jean > Harlow was done as one of the first sound movies.Harry Gorbrecht has a > copy. > Spider Smith > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 4:24 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > > > > Thanks to all for your input on "Post Mission Analysis", and "Real Time > > Aerial Warfare Cinematography" ( aka debriefing and combat photography). > > > > With the talent available here, I wonder if we could produce a decent > > documentary about the original Four Horsemen Groups and their WWII > history > > (FHGWH). If this might be considered feasible, I would like to be > > appointed executive director of abbreviations and anagrams ( EDAA ). > > > > LDL (let's do lunch) and discuss the project (DP) > > > > BR, ( best regards) > > LG ( make up your own) Cheers. > > > > ps anyone remember the WWI film " Hells' Angels", I thought that movie was > > pretty good too if you don't mind reading the subtitles and listening > piano > > music in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 19:34:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:34:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" References: <000901c12b3e$9e286a20$0dbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <001b01c12b39$1bb8a320$7b1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Maurice has set me straight. The silent film I was referring to as "Hells Angels" was in fact "Wings". Even in our present jaded age of Mega-movies, this film stands out as a classic. There was a WWI fighter outfit called the "Hells Angels" perhaps. Thanks Mountain Man. I will make a point of trying to see the "Lafayette Escadrille", I can't remember seeing that film, but I probably have. Some of the old silents are extremely well done. An actor in those days had to be pretty gifted in his art to get the message across with body language and facial expressions. Never met any of the Silent Stars. It seems we traveled in different circles. I did once walk on the same sidewalk that Charlie Chaplin had, however. You get a three day pass for straightening me out. See the Corporal in charge. Dismissed , sir, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" This is stretching my memory a bit!!!!-------1927 [I was 6] Paramount released "Wings" - silent adventure. [typed in "wings movie" on Google to find a VHS tape for $12.95] The stars were Clara Bow [the IT girl] , Gary Cooper, Richard Arlen, and Charles "Buddy" Rogers. [[This information from the web]] If memory serves me correctly Richard Arlen played Jack the lead and his best friend was David who died in the show. And that is the rest of the story!!! oThink I saw poart of it on TV a year or so ago. Maybe history channel???? Also was impressed with "Lafayette Escadrille" in the 40s or 50s. Maurioce Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 19:47:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:47:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <90.192d1493.28b565c0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c12b3a$e2f21ce0$7b1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bob Finley. I appreciate your contribution, Bob. Thank you. My dad had two very large boxes of pictures and film that we carried around for years and never gave much more than passing attention to. When he died in 1985 these boxes mysteriously disappeared and all that is left are fragments of the original. It is heart breaking in a sense. Not until about six months before he had a stroke did we begin to talk as father and son about his experiences in WWII. So , all I have to go on is fragments and old memories, and some good and patient friends here. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > I don't know about photographers assigned to fly with aircrews on combat > missions, but I remember being given a hand camera to take pictures while on > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 22 20:00:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:00:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: <002e01c12b3c$c8c6fa00$7b1b4e0c@o3n4f8> I am going to try to rephrase the "debriefing" question I asked earlier. I will begin by asking what the function of the S-2 officer was in the overall scheme of operations. I hope I have this designation correctly as someone involved in collating intelligence information. ( Yes some of the functions are obvious, others may not be quite so obvious ). Are there any S-2 types aboard that will venture a comment on this? If this works , I have other , hopefully relevant, questions to ask with regard to "debriefings", ( or for the new-age characters, Post Mission Analysises ) . Har ! Please try to take the question seriously, or advise me how it could be better stated. Thanks to all. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 01:26:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:26:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC References: <000701c12afd$09a9cce0$3a914d0c@o3n4f8> <007401c12b39$c085a9c0$22f833cf@richards> <000e01c12b36$e85382e0$7b1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000501c12b6a$35a94ce0$30f833cf@richards> Hi Lloyd: The web site is www.ivic.net/~spider/ enjoy. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > Dick Smith. > > Hello, Dick. Thank you for writing. Yes, I believe I saw that Movie, but > not more than once. You are right, it was a very good movie and some of the > best WWI pilots participated in the aerial scenes. I think, but I could > easily be wrong, that there was also a silent movie made entitled "Hells > Angels". I am glad you jogged my memory. I am going to make it a point to > rent the Howard Hughes version and watch it again. If I remember correctly > , both films were chiefly focused on fighter pilots. I know you were both a > B-17 pilot and later a P-51 pilot. > > This year I worked as a volunteer at the EAA Museum here in Lakeland during > the Sun & Fun Fly-In. ( I met some outstanding people, incidently. And > thoroughly enjoyed the experience). The Museum has an entire section > devoted to Howard Hughes. He was a weird Son of a Gun, but definately > worthy of respect when it came to aviation. > > I never personally met Mr. Hughes , unfortunately, as it seems our mutual > schedules never seemed to coincide. I regret that to some extent. Oh, > well. > > Anything new to see on your website, Dick? I have misplaced the URL. > > My respects, sir, > > Lloyd Grant. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Smith" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:39 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > > > > Lloyd: > > How did you get to see the first version of Hells Angles ? The final > version > > in which the Producer Howard Hughes discovered the blond bombshell Jean > > Harlow was done as one of the first sound movies.Harry Gorbrecht has a > > copy. > > Spider Smith > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 4:24 AM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] PMA & RTAWC > > > > > > > Thanks to all for your input on "Post Mission Analysis", and "Real Time > > > Aerial Warfare Cinematography" ( aka debriefing and combat photography). > > > > > > With the talent available here, I wonder if we could produce a decent > > > documentary about the original Four Horsemen Groups and their WWII > > history > > > (FHGWH). If this might be considered feasible, I would like to be > > > appointed executive director of abbreviations and anagrams ( EDAA ). > > > > > > LDL (let's do lunch) and discuss the project (DP) > > > > > > BR, ( best regards) > > > LG ( make up your own) Cheers. > > > > > > ps anyone remember the WWI film " Hells' Angels", I thought that movie > was > > > pretty good too if you don't mind reading the subtitles and listening > > piano > > > music in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 01:42:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:42:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" Message-ID: <82.f195596.28b5ab93@aol.com> Lloyd, I don't go to movies much so I can't help you but General Claire Chenault had 3 squadrons of volunteers that flew for the Chinese Nationalists before our big war got going well. They flew Curtis P40s. One of their squadrons was called "Hells Angles" I'm not sure Clark Gable wasn't in one of the movies they made about Hells Angeles. Best Wishes, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 02:42:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:42:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: <108.464c022.28b5b96a@aol.com> Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might give you some insight about Debriefings. Our group had just crossed the enemy coast in on a mission, We were close to 30,000 feet. It was just breaking day. The sun was not up yet. It was not my turn to fly so I was navigating (Pilotage) and could see the ground well and knew exactly and precisely where we were. I saw the first V-2 rocket the Germans fired, I think, leave the ground in a wooded area. We had been alerted to watch for them for some time by our intelligence people so know what it was. In the twilight it left a florescence trail so I could see it's course. As it left the ground I noted the time in seconds. As it descended I took control of the plane and turned out of formation a bit so I could look back into England and see it hit. I noted the elapsed time. We were well over a 100 miles from where it hit in England. While we were on the mission and it was not my turn to fly I got out my E6B computer and estimated its speed. A lot of people saw it but I was the only one who noted The time and landing spot and etc. O f course I reported my finding at the debriefing that evening. I Told the Lt. who was questioning me exactly where it left the ground. I told him I estimated it topped Out at 60 to 66 miles. I estimated its speed ad 3000 MPH. I told him where I thought it hit in England. He would not believe the 66 miles. He wrote 66,000 feet. I told him No I would not sign it I said 66 miles..He wrote 66miles and put a big ? make by it. Then he argued about the 3000MPH. He said that was impossible It was faster than the speed of sound. I told him I couldn't help it that is how fast it went and bullets went that fast. About 2 days later I was called back over to Headquarters. There was about 6 of them there including a full col. or two. They questioned me for several hours. The had maps that had similar terrane and said I was mistaken about where it left the ground and wanted me to study the other locations. and how did I come up with the 66 miles. It couldn't be. I told them we were nearly 6 mines above the ground and it went 10 time higher than we were above the ground. They said they had made many aerial photo of the area where I said it left the ground and there was no sign of a ramp there so I had to be mistaken. I insisted I was not I knew exactly were it left the ground. I saw it as it left the trees and I had followed out course from the coast and Knew were we were. After about 4 hours of this. I asked why do you keep questioning me if you think I am wrong. The Col. Said because you called where it hit within 10 miles and you were 180 miles away. After the war ended they learned they didn't use a ramp they just stood them on their tail and fired them and they did go 66 mile high. They never ever looked me up and said I'm sorry Jack. As a matter of interest. The first sputnik that the US put in orbit after the USSR put one up was lifted up there on a captured German V2 rocket. Keep the Peace, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 03:13:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:13:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: <200108222213.AA104464670@etbyte.net> Very interesting chat,it has happen MANY times in history how the conservatives are not willing to change reminds me of Billy Mitchel on his idea of bombing ships. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Jprencher@aol.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:42:02 EDT >Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might give >you some insight about Debriefings. > Our group had just crossed the enemy coast in on a mission, We were >close to 30,000 feet. It was just breaking day. The sun was not up yet. It >was not my turn to fly so I was navigating (Pilotage) and could see the >ground well and knew exactly and precisely where we were. I saw the first V-2 >rocket the Germans fired, I think, leave the ground in a wooded area. We had >been alerted to watch for them for some time by our intelligence people so >know what it was. In the twilight it left a florescence trail so I could see >it's course. As it left the ground I noted the time in seconds. As it >descended I took control of the plane and turned out of formation a bit so I >could look back into England and see it hit. I noted the elapsed time. We >were well over a 100 miles from where it hit in England. While we were on >the mission and it was not my turn to fly I got out my E6B computer and >estimated its speed. A lot of people saw it but I was the only one who noted >The time and landing spot and etc. > O f course I reported my finding at the debriefing that evening. I Told the >Lt. who was questioning me exactly where it left the ground. I told him I >estimated it topped Out at 60 to 66 miles. I estimated its speed ad 3000 MPH. >I told him where I thought it hit in England. He would not believe the 66 >miles. He wrote 66,000 feet. I told him No I would not sign it I said 66 >miles..He wrote 66miles and put a big ? make by it. Then he argued about the >3000MPH. He said that was impossible It was faster than the speed of sound. I >told him I couldn't help it that is how fast it went and bullets went that >fast. About 2 days later I was called back over to Headquarters. There was >about 6 of them there including a full col. or two. They questioned me for >several hours. The had maps that had similar terrane and said I was mistaken >about where it left the ground and wanted me to study the other locations. >and how did I come up with the 66 miles. It couldn't be. I told them we were >nearly 6 mines above the ground and it went 10 time higher than we were above >the ground. They said they had made many aerial photo of the area where I >said it left the ground and there was no sign of a ramp there so I had to be >mistaken. I insisted I was not I knew exactly were it left the ground. I saw >it as it left the trees and I had followed out course from the coast and Knew >were we were. After about 4 hours of this. I asked why do you keep >questioning me if you think I am wrong. The Col. Said because you called >where it hit within 10 miles and you were 180 miles away. After the war ended >they learned they didn't use a ramp they just stood them on their tail and >fired them and they did go 66 mile high. They never ever looked me up and >said I'm sorry Jack. > As a matter of interest. The first sputnik that the US put in orbit >after the USSR put one up was lifted up there on a captured German V2 rocket. > Keep the Peace, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 00:09:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:09:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 References: <200108222213.AA104464670@etbyte.net> Message-ID: <001201c12b5f$7ce5b180$d6904d0c@o3n4f8> Jack Rencher. Jack, perhaps now I have more than the jist of your last comments on this subject, and a better appreciation of how you viewed the debriefing process as " just another part of the Job". It is an old time worn joke that Military Intelligence is only another Oxymoron in the lexicon of the English language. I have secretly suspected for many years now that the military could not function, but for the dedication of many truck drivers, and the insoucient bravado of very young men willing to put their lives on the line for an ideal. Now , I understand your "wry smile". Thank you, Jack. Your answer is what I expected. I hope others will comment as well, for the sake of parity; if nothing else. Your friend, Lloyd. ps. It is a simple thing to keep the peace when you are not afraid, it only becomes difficult when you are scared. BR. LG. ( grins, sir.) --- Original Message ----- From: "Francisco Quinonez Lopez" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Very interesting chat,it has happen MANY times in history how the conservatives are not willing to change reminds me of > Billy Mitchel on his idea of bombing ships. > > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might give > >you some insight about Debriefings. > > Our group had just crossed the enemy coast in on a mission, We were > >close to 30,000 feet. It was just breaking day. The sun was not up yet. It > >was not my turn to fly so I was navigating (Pilotage) and could see the > >ground well and knew exactly and precisely where we were. I saw the first V-2 > >rocket the Germans fired, I think, leave the ground in a wooded area. We had > >been alerted to watch for them for some time by our intelligence people so > >know what it was. In the twilight it left a florescence trail so I could see > >it's course. As it left the ground I noted the time in seconds. As it > >descended I took control of the plane and turned out of formation a bit so I > >could look back into England and see it hit. I noted the elapsed time. We > >were well over a 100 miles from where it hit in England. While we were on > >the mission and it was not my turn to fly I got out my E6B computer and > >estimated its speed. A lot of people saw it but I was the only one who noted > >The time and landing spot and etc. > > O f course I reported my finding at the debriefing that evening. I Told the > >Lt. who was questioning me exactly where it left the ground. I told him I > >estimated it topped Out at 60 to 66 miles. I estimated its speed ad 3000 MPH. > >I told him where I thought it hit in England. He would not believe the 66 > >miles. He wrote 66,000 feet. I told him No I would not sign it I said 66 > >miles..He wrote 66miles and put a big ? make by it. Then he argued about the > >3000MPH. He said that was impossible It was faster than the speed of sound. I > >told him I couldn't help it that is how fast it went and bullets went that > >fast. About 2 days later I was called back over to Headquarters. There was > >about 6 of them there including a full col. or two. They questioned me for > >several hours. The had maps that had similar terrane and said I was mistaken > >about where it left the ground and wanted me to study the other locations. > >and how did I come up with the 66 miles. It couldn't be. I told them we were > >nearly 6 mines above the ground and it went 10 time higher than we were above > >the ground. They said they had made many aerial photo of the area where I > >said it left the ground and there was no sign of a ramp there so I had to be > >mistaken. I insisted I was not I knew exactly were it left the ground. I saw > >it as it left the trees and I had followed out course from the coast and Knew > >were we were. After about 4 hours of this. I asked why do you keep > >questioning me if you think I am wrong. The Col. Said because you called > >where it hit within 10 miles and you were 180 miles away. After the war ended > >they learned they didn't use a ramp they just stood them on their tail and > >fired them and they did go 66 mile high. They never ever looked me up and > >said I'm sorry Jack. > > As a matter of interest. The first sputnik that the US put in orbit > >after the USSR put one up was lifted up there on a captured German V2 rocket. > > Keep the Peace, > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 00:15:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:15:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" References: <82.f195596.28b5ab93@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c12b60$49bd92e0$d6904d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, Like you, neither do I. I get cluster-phobic in crowds. You guys are the only Hells Angels I give a damn about. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" > Lloyd, I don't go to movies much so I can't help you but General Claire > Chenault had 3 squadrons of volunteers that flew for the Chinese Nationalists > before our big war got going well. They flew Curtis P40s. One of their > squadrons was called "Hells Angles" I'm not sure Clark Gable wasn't in one of > the movies they made about Hells Angeles. > Best Wishes, > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 00:37:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:37:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 References: <108.464c022.28b5b96a@aol.com> Message-ID: <002601c12b63$59109460$d6904d0c@o3n4f8> Jack Rencher. Darned if I know what an S-2 officer is either. I read it somewhere that they were in charge of debriefings, and acted as temporary bartenders after a mission, and grilled everyone about the mission. I am beginning to believe that clerk-typists and supply Sergeants on both sides could have settled the War amicably and profitably, and in the best interests of all concerned if given the opportunity and license ( and some motivated truck drivers ) ; but where would that have left the Generals? Just a sad joke, sir. Lloyd. *** Catch 22 *** --- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might give > you some insight about Debriefings. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 05:41:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:41:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers Message-ID: --part1_da.b1ac844.28b5e388_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my conversations with Dad I understand that there were individuals from S2 (Intelligence) who would offer still cameras with film to crews about to depart on a mission. The purpose here was to obtain additional photographic data from the mission. Whether motion picture cameras and film were provided I do not know. One of Dad's regrets is that he did not participate in this program as all unclassified photographs were returned to the person who took them. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_da.b1ac844.28b5e388_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      In my conversations with Dad I understand that there were individuals
from S2 (Intelligence) who would offer still cameras with film to crews about
to depart on a mission. The purpose here was to obtain additional
photographic data from the mission. Whether motion picture cameras and film
were provided I do not know. One of Dad's regrets is that he did not
participate in this program as all unclassified photographs were returned to
the person who took them.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_da.b1ac844.28b5e388_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 06:16:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:16:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: --part1_fc.b18b6cd.28b5ebc9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, Your association with the Kellys is much more intimate than mine. I was merely stationed at the former site of the Kelly Brickyard. Whenever I think of the Aviation Supply Office (aka Naval Supply Depot during WWII) I am reminded of the distinctive deep burgundy color of the bricks used to construct 'the Depot' and many of the rowhouses in northeast Philadelphia. Both Jack Kellys were extremely accomplished rowers. I was in Monaco only briefly in the 1970s, but I never saw Grace Kelly. I met someone recently who was stationed with the US military in Europe many years ago and claimed to have met Grace in Monaco. This person also claims that Grace gave them a tour of the Palace in Monaco. My two favorite movies with Grace Kelly are 'Rear Window' and 'High Noon' (the one with Gary Cooper). Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_fc.b18b6cd.28b5ebc9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller,

      Your association with the Kellys is much more intimate than mine. I
was merely stationed at the former site of the Kelly Brickyard. Whenever I
think of the Aviation Supply Office (aka Naval Supply Depot during WWII) I am
reminded of the distinctive deep burgundy color of the bricks used to
construct 'the Depot' and many of the rowhouses in northeast Philadelphia.

      Both Jack Kellys were extremely accomplished rowers. I was in Monaco
only briefly in the 1970s, but I never saw Grace Kelly. I met someone
recently who was stationed with the US military in Europe many years ago and
claimed to have met Grace in Monaco. This person also claims that Grace gave
them a tour of the Palace in Monaco.

      My two favorite movies with Grace Kelly are 'Rear Window' and 'High
Noon' (the one with Gary Cooper).

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_fc.b18b6cd.28b5ebc9_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 07:47:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:47:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs References: Message-ID: <3B84A6EE.8BD968A6@attglobal.net> --------------9B6003CDCD8F2130E173C0BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ... The Naval Supply Depot about which you speak as being next to or in the Kelly Brickyard ... reminds me of the Marine Depot built right beside Kelly's office and Supply Yard at 770 Schylkill Avenue in Philadelphia. I heard it later bvecame a Naval Operation, but did not follow much after that. As for beauty, I believe Grace's patrician beauty and Catherine Deneuve's (sic) absolute beauty put them apart from any other females of the celebrity world. As a youngster, Grace did not exhibit much of the beauty she was later "graced" with. But, she was always the very well behaved and polite youngster. I had nothing but love and admiration for the entire family. Cheers! Bill Heller JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller, > > Your association with the Kellys is much more intimate than > mine. I > was merely stationed at the former site of the Kelly Brickyard. > Whenever I > think of the Aviation Supply Office (aka Naval Supply Depot during > WWII) I am > reminded of the distinctive deep burgundy color of the bricks used to > construct 'the Depot' and many of the rowhouses in northeast > Philadelphia. > > Both Jack Kellys were extremely accomplished rowers. I was in > Monaco > only briefly in the 1970s, but I never saw Grace Kelly. I met someone > > recently who was stationed with the US military in Europe many years > ago and > claimed to have met Grace in Monaco. This person also claims that > Grace gave > them a tour of the Palace in Monaco. > > My two favorite movies with Grace Kelly are 'Rear Window' and > 'High > Noon' (the one with Gary Cooper). > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------9B6003CDCD8F2130E173C0BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jenkins ...

The Naval Supply Depot about which you speak as being next to or in the Kelly Brickyard ... reminds me of the Marine Depot built right beside Kelly's office and Supply Yard at 770 Schylkill Avenue in Philadelphia. I heard it later bvecame a Naval Operation, but did not follow much after that.

As for beauty, I believe Grace's patrician beauty and Catherine Deneuve's (sic) absolute beauty put them apart from any other females of the celebrity world. As a youngster, Grace did not exhibit much of the beauty she was later "graced" with. But, she was always the very well behaved and polite youngster. I had nothing but love and admiration for the entire family.

Cheers!

Bill Heller

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller,
      Your association with the Kellys is much more intimate than mine. I
was merely stationed at the former site of the Kelly Brickyard. Whenever I
think of the Aviation Supply Office (aka Naval Supply Depot during WWII) I am
reminded of the distinctive deep burgundy color of the bricks used to
construct 'the Depot' and many of the rowhouses in northeast Philadelphia.
      Both Jack Kellys were extremely accomplished rowers. I was in Monaco
only briefly in the 1970s, but I never saw Grace Kelly. I met someone
recently who was stationed with the US military in Europe many years ago and
claimed to have met Grace in Monaco. This person also claims that Grace gave
them a tour of the Palace in Monaco.
      My two favorite movies with Grace Kelly are 'Rear Window' and 'High
Noon' (the one with Gary Cooper).
Best Wishes,
John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------9B6003CDCD8F2130E173C0BA-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 19:16:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:16:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: What a facinating story and how awful it must have been to be interrogated by our own! I've seen several pictures of thick, white smoke streaking straight up into the heavens taken by you boys. At first I thought they were smoke markers of the remains of a bomber going down, but the smoke was too straight and condensed for it to be anything other than a V-2. Were you close to Peenemunde, Calais, or IJmueden? Or do you think it was a mobile launcer. I heard the mobile set ups didn't work very well. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:42:02 EDT > >Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might >give >you some insight about Debriefings. > Our group had just crossed the enemy coast in on a mission, We were >close to 30,000 feet. It was just breaking day. The sun was not up yet. It >was not my turn to fly so I was navigating (Pilotage) and could see the >ground well and knew exactly and precisely where we were. I saw the first >V-2 >rocket the Germans fired, I think, leave the ground in a wooded area. We >had >been alerted to watch for them for some time by our intelligence people so >know what it was. In the twilight it left a florescence trail so I could >see >it's course. As it left the ground I noted the time in seconds. As it >descended I took control of the plane and turned out of formation a bit so >I >could look back into England and see it hit. I noted the elapsed time. We >were well over a 100 miles from where it hit in England. While we were on >the mission and it was not my turn to fly I got out my E6B computer and >estimated its speed. A lot of people saw it but I was the only one who >noted >The time and landing spot and etc. > O f course I reported my finding at the debriefing that evening. I Told >the >Lt. who was questioning me exactly where it left the ground. I told him I >estimated it topped Out at 60 to 66 miles. I estimated its speed ad 3000 >MPH. >I told him where I thought it hit in England. He would not believe the 66 >miles. He wrote 66,000 feet. I told him No I would not sign it I said 66 >miles..He wrote 66miles and put a big ? make by it. Then he argued about >the >3000MPH. He said that was impossible It was faster than the speed of sound. >I >told him I couldn't help it that is how fast it went and bullets went that >fast. About 2 days later I was called back over to Headquarters. There was >about 6 of them there including a full col. or two. They questioned me for >several hours. The had maps that had similar terrane and said I was >mistaken >about where it left the ground and wanted me to study the other locations. >and how did I come up with the 66 miles. It couldn't be. I told them we >were >nearly 6 mines above the ground and it went 10 time higher than we were >above >the ground. They said they had made many aerial photo of the area where I >said it left the ground and there was no sign of a ramp there so I had to >be >mistaken. I insisted I was not I knew exactly were it left the ground. I >saw >it as it left the trees and I had followed out course from the coast and >Knew >were we were. After about 4 hours of this. I asked why do you keep >questioning me if you think I am wrong. The Col. Said because you called >where it hit within 10 miles and you were 180 miles away. After the war >ended >they learned they didn't use a ramp they just stood them on their tail and >fired them and they did go 66 mile high. They never ever looked me up and >said I'm sorry Jack. > As a matter of interest. The first sputnik that the US put in orbit >after the USSR put one up was lifted up there on a captured German V2 >rocket. > Keep the Peace, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 19:18:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:18:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: Billy Mitchell was so far ahead of his time it isn't even funny, sort of like Albert Einstein. Mitchell predicted in the 30s we would land a man on the moon by the end of the 20th Century. Too bad he had a habit of pissing off Congress! (Glad someone did!) Kevin >From: "Francisco Quinonez Lopez" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:13:13 -0400 > >Very interesting chat,it has happen MANY times in history how the >conservatives are not willing to change reminds me of >Billy Mitchel on his idea of bombing ships. > > > > >---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:42:02 EDT > > >Lloyd, I don't know what an S2 officer is but this very true story might >give > >you some insight about Debriefings. > > Our group had just crossed the enemy coast in on a mission, We were > >close to 30,000 feet. It was just breaking day. The sun was not up yet. >It > >was not my turn to fly so I was navigating (Pilotage) and could see the > >ground well and knew exactly and precisely where we were. I saw the first >V-2 > >rocket the Germans fired, I think, leave the ground in a wooded area. We >had > >been alerted to watch for them for some time by our intelligence people >so > >know what it was. In the twilight it left a florescence trail so I could >see > >it's course. As it left the ground I noted the time in seconds. As it > >descended I took control of the plane and turned out of formation a bit >so I > >could look back into England and see it hit. I noted the elapsed time. We > >were well over a 100 miles from where it hit in England. While we were >on > >the mission and it was not my turn to fly I got out my E6B computer and > >estimated its speed. A lot of people saw it but I was the only one who >noted > >The time and landing spot and etc. > > O f course I reported my finding at the debriefing that evening. I Told >the > >Lt. who was questioning me exactly where it left the ground. I told him I > >estimated it topped Out at 60 to 66 miles. I estimated its speed ad 3000 >MPH. > >I told him where I thought it hit in England. He would not believe the >66 > >miles. He wrote 66,000 feet. I told him No I would not sign it I said 66 > >miles..He wrote 66miles and put a big ? make by it. Then he argued about >the > >3000MPH. He said that was impossible It was faster than the speed of >sound. I > >told him I couldn't help it that is how fast it went and bullets went >that > >fast. About 2 days later I was called back over to Headquarters. There >was > >about 6 of them there including a full col. or two. They questioned me >for > >several hours. The had maps that had similar terrane and said I was >mistaken > >about where it left the ground and wanted me to study the other >locations. > >and how did I come up with the 66 miles. It couldn't be. I told them we >were > >nearly 6 mines above the ground and it went 10 time higher than we were >above > >the ground. They said they had made many aerial photo of the area where I > >said it left the ground and there was no sign of a ramp there so I had to >be > >mistaken. I insisted I was not I knew exactly were it left the ground. I >saw > >it as it left the trees and I had followed out course from the coast and >Knew > >were we were. After about 4 hours of this. I asked why do you keep > >questioning me if you think I am wrong. The Col. Said because you called > >where it hit within 10 miles and you were 180 miles away. After the war >ended > >they learned they didn't use a ramp they just stood them on their tail >and > >fired them and they did go 66 mile high. They never ever looked me up and > >said I'm sorry Jack. > > As a matter of interest. The first sputnik that the US put in orbit > >after the USSR put one up was lifted up there on a captured German V2 >rocket. > > Keep the Peace, > > Jack Rencher > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 15:51:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:51:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: Message-ID: <002501c12be3$22fc1180$89904d0c@o3n4f8> John Jenkins. Thanks for your input on this subject , John. If all debriefings were conducted in the way Jack has described his when he reported sighting the V-2 being launched, it is small wonder that a lot of men might have developed a trace of cynicism over the efficacy of the after mission interview, and the sincerity of the debriefers. I hope more responses to this question will come along from others. regards, John. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > In my conversations with Dad I understand that there were individuals > from S2 (Intelligence) who would offer still cameras with film to crews about ... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 15:03:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:03:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak batteries as targets Message-ID: <003801c12bdc$76695aa0$89904d0c@o3n4f8> It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile artillery weapon the Germans employed. Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on the target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that these installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in relatively fixed locations as well). Thanks for your responses. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 20:54:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:54:40 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak batteries as targets Message-ID: <20010823195441.YVBK28026.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, we did not bomb anti-aircraft batteries while I was there in 1945. We tried to avoid them when possible and did so with a degree of success. The exceptions were the primary targets like Berlin etc. These we could not avoid. Possibly the medium bombers or ground support P- 47s did. > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on the > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that these > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > relatively fixed locations as well). > > Thanks for your responses. > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 20:53:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:53:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <002501c12be3$22fc1180$89904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B855F2D.285B54FC@attglobal.net> J. Jenkins ... Anent debriefing. It was conducted by S2 which is the Intelligence Section of a military operation. I can recall a certain debriefing after my crew had seen its FIRST Me262 and mentioned the German Jet in debriefing. The debriefing Officer pooh poohed the idea. I then reached across the table, grabbed him by the shirt (thank God I outranked him) and said very loudly, "Sir! My crew SAW a German Jet! It sunfished right in front of us after its pass which we did NOT see coming!" He whispered to me, "Sir, we are NOT to see German Jets until the Allies have one in operation!" Just another of the many slips of the lips, as they say. I recall in a Bar in Casablanca one night after the 303rd Cadre had gone down there after the war. Noticing me as an American and a military man with wings, the "fellow" at the Bar asked, "Are you fellows from the 8th really going to get B29s and train here in Africa preparatory to going to China to bomb Japan?" All that glitters is not gold and all that matters is not told .... I had NEVER heard that story, even when ordered to GO to Africa! Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > John Jenkins. > > Thanks for your input on this subject , John. If all debriefings were > conducted in the way Jack has described his when he reported sighting the > V-2 being launched, it is small wonder that a lot of men might have > developed a trace of cynicism over the efficacy of the after mission > interview, and the sincerity of the debriefers. I hope more responses to > this question will come along from others. > > regards, John. > > Lloyd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > > > In my conversations with Dad I understand that there were > individuals > > from S2 (Intelligence) who would offer still cameras with film to crews > about ... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 20:58:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:58:18 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOVIES & "OLD GEEZERS" Message-ID: <82.f236ccf.28b6ba5a@aol.com> Another goodie was "The Eagle and the Hawk", which had youngsters Fredrick March and Cary Grant. Also "Air Mail" (1932) Great old timers with no process stuff, but the fantastic flying of guys like Frank Clarke, Paul Mantz, Frank Tallman and others. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 20:59:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:59:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <003801c12bdc$76695aa0$89904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B856093.1C6E350B@attglobal.net> Lloyd G ... We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and others, in tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such installations. Not certain. As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting story about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose of tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent after the famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on the ground, ostensibly to some "command" area. I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump into the air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the blast for there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City block was about its destruction area. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on the > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that these > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > relatively fixed locations as well). > > Thanks for your responses. > > Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 21:13:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:13:17 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers Message-ID: <20010823201319.QJL8481.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Lloyd, I also reported a V-2 launching during debriefing. We had aborted mission #318 on February 20th to Nurnberg due to the loss of engine #2. We were on our way back when the V-2 came up through the clouds about one mile off our right wing tip. It was a sight to see! Those holding our debriefing were interested in the location of the launch as best we could estimate it. They accepted the information without the third degree. In my opinion those conducting the debriefing had a job to do and as far as I know they did it well. The information they gained was as good as it was accurate so they had to question etc....Bill Runnels > John Jenkins. > > Thanks for your input on this subject , John. If all debriefings were > conducted in the way Jack has described his when he reported sighting the > V-2 being launched, it is small wonder that a lot of men might have > developed a trace of cynicism over the efficacy of the after mission > interview, and the sincerity of the debriefers. I hope more responses to > this question will come along from others. > > regards, John. > > Lloyd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > > > > In my conversations with Dad I understand that there were > individuals > > from S2 (Intelligence) who would offer still cameras with film to crews > about ... > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 16:19:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:19:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <002501c12be3$22fc1180$89904d0c@o3n4f8> <3B855F2D.285B54FC@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00d901c12be7$0f311840$89904d0c@o3n4f8> I would presume a certain amount of healthy skepticism was inherent to the S-2 officers job in order to separate the "wheat from the chaff". And it is likely true that many of the debriefing officers were junior in rank and responsible to the agenda handed down by a " higher" authority. I hate to think that information would purposely be with-held that might encumber, or endanger combat crews. but, who is to say. Paranoia strikes deep in any intelligence community. I really appreciate the responses on this subject. Thanks again. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > J. Jenkins ... > > Anent debriefing. It was conducted by S2 which is the Intelligence Section of > a military operation. > > I can recall a certain debriefing after my crew had seen its FIRST Me262.... He whispered to me, "Sir, we are NOT to see German Jets until the Allies have one in operation!" From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 16:28:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:28:53 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak batteries as targets References: <20010823195441.YVBK28026.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <00df01c12be8$52381a20$89904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Runnels. Thanks, Bill. It would seem to me that attacking the flak batteries, if only by some means secondary to the main force of the strike, would have had a beneficial effect; one, in eliminating the batteries capability, and two, in helping to demoralize the gunners that manned them. As usual , there are a lot of arm-chair generals now, and perhaps then, who are capable of clairvoyance when they are not the ones being shot at. Grins, sir. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Flak batteries as targets > Lloyd, we did not bomb anti-aircraft batteries while I > was there in 1945. We tried to avoid them when possible > and did so with a degree of success. The exceptions were > the primary targets like Berlin etc. These we could not > avoid. Possibly the medium bombers or ground support P- > 47s did. > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on the > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that these > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 23 16:46:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:46:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <003801c12bdc$76695aa0$89904d0c@o3n4f8> <3B856093.1C6E350B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <00ef01c12bea$c1212100$89904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 attacks were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the street from her. I guess people could become complaiscent about taking to the shelters every time an alert sounded. She said there was not a mark on anyone of them except for a trickle of blood coming from the ears and noses. I guess there wasn't much that could be done to counter the V2 attacks except warn the people in an area where a strike appeared to be imminent. Thanks for chipping in on this topic. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > Lloyd G ... > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and others, in > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > installations. Not certain. > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting story > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose of > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent after the > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on the ground, > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump into the > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the blast for > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City block was > about its destruction area. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on the > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that these > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > Lloyd. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 01:14:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:14:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request Message-ID: <000c01c12c31$c4d1fbc0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C12C10.3D294BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am back from vacation and want to be activated again. I also have what might appear to be a strange request. If any of you = bought the "Might in Flight" book when it was available, I would like to = know how much paid for it? My younger brother is trying to settle my = Uncle Jim's estate and I was left his war memorabilia. The Probate = Court wants to have a determination of the value of the memorabilia and = have insisted on having a price for this book. It is not available = anywhere so I cannot find a price. If a few of you respond to this and = indicate what you paid for it, it might be enough for the court. I guess you should not answer until I have been activated on the list = again. Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C12C10.3D294BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am back from vacation and want to be activated=20 again.

I also have what might appear to be a strange = request. =20 If any of you bought the "Might in Flight" book when it was available, I = would=20 like to know how much paid for it? My younger brother is = trying=20 to settle my Uncle Jim's estate and I was left his war = memorabilia. The=20 Probate Court wants to have a determination of the value of the = memorabilia and=20 have insisted on having a price for this book. It is not available = anywhere so I cannot find a price. If a few of you respond to=20 this and indicate what you paid for it, it might be enough for = the=20 court.

I guess you should not answer until I have been = activated on=20 the list again.

Thanks.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C12C10.3D294BE0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 02:25:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:25:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request In-Reply-To: <000c01c12c31$c4d1fbc0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <3B854A89.7544.19B36F7@localhost> > I also have what might appear to be a strange request. If any of you > bought the "Might in Flight" book when it was available, I would like > to know how much paid for it? Mark, you're back on...... The 2nd Edition of MIF sold for $75. I don't now about the 1st Edition, but the author himself is on this list as are many who have the 1st Edition. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 02:31:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:31:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request In-Reply-To: <3B854A89.7544.19B36F7@localhost> References: <000c01c12c31$c4d1fbc0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <3B854C0D.895.1A120B7@localhost> > The 2nd Edition of MIF sold for $75. I > don't now about the 1st Edition, but the author himself is on this > list as are many who have the 1st Edition. Mark, I should add that it is worth MUCH more than that. It's an invaluable resource. I treasure my copy - and it's getting worn! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 01:53:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:53:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request References: <000c01c12c31$c4d1fbc0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> <3B854C0D.895.1A120B7@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c12c37$304a8ca0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> Thanks. We just called a friend of Jim's. He said the 1st edition cost $60, but pointed out it apparently had a lot of mistakes. Thus, the 2nd edition. I have the CD which I assume has accurate information. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request > > The 2nd Edition of MIF sold for $75. I > > don't now about the 1st Edition, but the author himself is on this > > list as are many who have the 1st Edition. > > Mark, I should add that it is worth MUCH more than that. It's an > invaluable resource. I treasure my copy - and it's getting worn! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 02:34:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:34:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MIGHT IN FLIGHT Message-ID: <000801c12c3c$f15abc80$38bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12C13.061191A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HARRY GOBRECHT-- "Might In Flight"--- I thought I had one that was given = to me. WRONG.[not at $75!!] I looked in my foot locker and I had "The = first 300" Which was handed out at the time in England. Also found = "Target Germany - cost $2. Printed I think in 1943. MY QUESTION is this = did I buy that some where or was it "issued " in 1943. It mentions paper = shortage, narrow margins, thinner paper and more words per page and a = thinner book.OR am I loosing my mrarbles.?????????????? To tell the = truth this is the first time I really looked at it. Very good photos , = explanations and charts.--ON SECOND THOUGHT MAYBE I AM LOOSING = SOMETHING. To quick old and too late smart!!!!!!!!!!!! MAURICE PAULK ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12C13.061191A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HARRY GOBRECHT-- "Might In Flight"--- I = thought I=20 had one that was given to me. WRONG.[not at $75!!] I looked in my foot = locker=20 and I had "The first 300" Which was handed out at the time in England. = Also=20 found "Target Germany - cost $2. Printed I think in 1943. MY QUESTION is = this=20 did I buy that some where or was it "issued " in 1943. It mentions paper = shortage, narrow margins, thinner paper and more words per page and a = thinner=20 book.OR am I loosing my mrarbles.?????????????? To tell the truth this = is the=20 first time I really looked at it. Very good photos , explanations and=20 charts.--ON SECOND THOUGHT MAYBE I AM LOOSING = SOMETHING.

To quick old and too late = smart!!!!!!!!!!!!=20 MAURICE PAULK

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12C13.061191A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 03:17:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:17:17 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Movie "Wings" Message-ID: <130.640dcf.28b7132d@aol.com> Mr. Maurioce Paulk, It is interesting that you mention the 1927 movie "Wings." It was filmed in late 1926. My grandfather, the late Col. Ford J. Lauer (the 303rd BG's first commander), was going through Air Corps advanced flying school at Kelly Field, San Antonio at that time. The scenes in the movie with the French village were filmed at Army Camp Stanley just north of San Antonio. My grandfather, among other pilots, flew one of the planes used in the filming. The plane was an Air Corps plane, all painted up like a German plane. I have photos. My grandfather dressed up like a German pilot. I have seen the movie, and there are no close-ups of my grandfather. More interesting, my other grandfather was a carpenter hired to help build the French village and some camera towers. Of course neither of my parents were born yet. My parents met after my grandfather retired, when he chose to live in Boerne, Texas. By the way, "Wings" won "Best Picture" in 1927. The movie "Best Years of Our Lives" won in 1949. Maybe I am getting old, but it is beyond me how a movie like "American Beauty" would win the same honor 70 odd years later. Just a little trivia.......................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 03:27:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:27:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request Message-ID: <62.13056358.28b7159b@aol.com> On your Might I Flight Book value. If it is the first edition I would say $50. If it is the revised addition I would say $75 Harry Gobrecht the author and our great Historian would be the one to ask. If he wants to sell it I will pay him the above prices and get it for a friend that wants one. Jprencher@AOL.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 03:29:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:29:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Billy Mitchell Message-ID: <30.1999b942.28b715f9@aol.com> Mr. Francisco Quinonez Lopez , I don't think that General Mitchell made congress mad. It was all the old army cavalry generals who had it in for him. They refused to see the airplane as an independent offensive weapon. They believed the airplane should exist solely to support battle field commanders and be under their control. This attitude and friction of army control didn't end until 1947, when the air force became its own branch of the military. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 05:38:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:38:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs Message-ID: --part1_dd.1978e691.28b7345b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, The address you provide on Schuylkill Avenue is in a completely different region of Philadelphia and is located across the Schuylkill River from the University of Pennsylvania, the train station, and the Schuylkill Expressway. The Schuylkill Expressway was also known as the 'Surekill' Expressway in some circles. There was some rationale behind this reference. The street address for the site of a former Kelly Brickyard in northeast Philadelphia is either 700 Robbins Avenue or 5801 Tabor. I have no reason to doubt that this location was at one time a Kelly Brickyard as Philadelphia natives volunteered this information. If you look either address up at www.yahoo.com (under Maps) you will note that the adjacent Naval installation is still identified as the 'US Naval Aviation Supply Depot'. The WWII era reference to the 'Supply Depot' is recognized only in Philadelphia. The Navy has moved on to different terminology. Traditions die hard in Philadelphia. Immediately to the south of the 'Depot' was a Sears Store on Roosevelt Boulevard which was a local landmark. Unfortunately, this structure was recently demolished by implosion. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_dd.1978e691.28b7345b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller,

      The address you provide on Schuylkill Avenue is in a completely
different region of Philadelphia and is located across the Schuylkill River
from the University of Pennsylvania, the train station, and the Schuylkill
Expressway. The Schuylkill Expressway was also known as the 'Surekill'
Expressway in some circles. There was some rationale behind this reference.

      The street address for the site of a former Kelly Brickyard in
northeast Philadelphia is either 700 Robbins Avenue or 5801 Tabor. I have no
reason to doubt that this location was at one time a Kelly Brickyard as
Philadelphia natives volunteered this information. If you look either
address up at www.yahoo.com (under Maps) you will note that the adjacent
Naval installation is still identified as the 'US Naval Aviation Supply
Depot'. The WWII era reference to the 'Supply Depot' is recognized only in
Philadelphia. The Navy has moved on to different terminology. Traditions
die hard in Philadelphia.

      Immediately to the south of the 'Depot' was a Sears Store on Roosevelt
Boulevard which was a local landmark. Unfortunately, this structure was
recently demolished by implosion.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_dd.1978e691.28b7345b_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 06:59:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:59:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: Kevin, It wasn't a bit awful to be interrogated by our own. They were very friendly and did not torture me. They were just doing their job and trying to get information. The truth is the V2s were so much advanced they just had no idea what they were looking for. They did not use a launcher or ramp. They had vanes in the rocket blast that would guide the rocket and balance it and stand the heat until the speed was great enough the outer fins not in the jet exhaust could take over. They could just stand it on its tail and fire it from any flat place. I'm falling asleep. Good night Kevin. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 07:26:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:26:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] "Target Germany" Message-ID: Also found "Target Germany - cost $2. > To quick old and too late smart!!!!!!!!!!!! MAURICE PAULK Maurice - thanks for the reminder of "Target Germany", an issue I inherited from my dad-in-law navigator. It has been stored away forgotten so thanks to you for jogging my memory. (This one is the budget paper cover copy at $1 differing from your Deluxe cloth bound edition!) No marbles lost, it is just as you describe with nice photos and overview of the VIII Bomber Command's first year in Europe. As far as being "issued" I don't know but I suppose it may have been to some degree "restricted". When you were a "kid" in '43 you were to be young forever and certainly already smart! The real truth just comes to you later on! Best regards, Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 08:25:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:25:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] WINGS Message-ID: <000501c12c6d$f8bd56a0$48bb9ace@mjpmtman> MR. LAUER "Wings" for some reason has stayed in my memory. I was 6 years old when it was released in 1927. The out standing thing of it was that the uncle of a friend of mine ["Cap" A. H. Hardy ] was behind the machine gun that punched holes in the airplane's fabric. He also fired for the lead man in "Annie Get your Gun". His daughter fired for Annie Oakley. He used to put on exhibitions here in wood River. [He married a local girl] He shot the glass heads off hat pins stuck in his wife's hat which was on her head. He worked for Winchester . His trade mark was drawing an indian head with full headress on a sheet of metal. They call him Cap after he settled down and was police chief of Los Angeles [I think}. Cap's nephew gave me a stamped holster for my Dad's Colt Woodsman that he bought in '27.--I still have the holster stamped 'A. H. Hardy - Maker - Beverly Hills Cal." Like you I was there "in spirit" !!!!! MEMORIES ARE PRECIOUS POSSESSIONS---MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 07:57:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:57:51 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #360 - 23 msgs References: Message-ID: <3B85FAEF.D9CED9B0@attglobal.net> --------------C23D7C475F91FEAC16D808CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ... Correct. I know where 770 Schuykill Avenue is, having worked there for four years. And I also know the "Surekill Crawlway" having been brought up in the Valley Forge area. I recall when there WAS no Surekill Crawlway and one had to use Montgomery Avenue onto City Line Avenue and then into the Fairmont Park area. I think the Northeast "brickyard" Area IS on Tabor. I seem to recall it. Lots of good memories. We get back there so seldom. Cheers! WCH JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote: > Bill Heller, > > The address you provide on Schuylkill Avenue is in a completely > different region of Philadelphia and is located across the Schuylkill > River > from the University of Pennsylvania, the train station, and the > Schuylkill > Expressway. The Schuylkill Expressway was also known as the > 'Surekill' > Expressway in some circles. There was some rationale behind this > reference. > > The street address for the site of a former Kelly Brickyard in > northeast Philadelphia is either 700 Robbins Avenue or 5801 Tabor. I > have no > reason to doubt that this location was at one time a Kelly Brickyard > as > Philadelphia natives volunteered this information. If you look either > > address up at www.yahoo.com (under Maps) you will note that the > adjacent > Naval installation is still identified as the 'US Naval Aviation > Supply > Depot'. The WWII era reference to the 'Supply Depot' is recognized > only in > Philadelphia. The Navy has moved on to different terminology. > Traditions > die hard in Philadelphia. > > Immediately to the south of the 'Depot' was a Sears Store on > Roosevelt > Boulevard which was a local landmark. Unfortunately, this structure > was > recently demolished by implosion. > > Best Wishes, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 --------------C23D7C475F91FEAC16D808CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Jenkins ...

Correct. I know where 770 Schuykill Avenue is, having worked there for four years. And I also know the "Surekill Crawlway" having been brought up in the Valley Forge area. I recall when there WAS no Surekill Crawlway and one had to use Montgomery Avenue onto City Line Avenue and then into the Fairmont Park area. I think the Northeast "brickyard" Area IS on Tabor. I seem to recall it.

Lots of good memories. We get back there so seldom.

Cheers!

WCH

JJENKINSR@cs.com wrote:

Bill Heller,
      The address you provide on Schuylkill Avenue is in a completely
different region of Philadelphia and is located across the Schuylkill River
from the University of Pennsylvania, the train station, and the Schuylkill
Expressway. The Schuylkill Expressway was also known as the 'Surekill'
Expressway in some circles. There was some rationale behind this reference.
      The street address for the site of a former Kelly Brickyard in
northeast Philadelphia is either 700 Robbins Avenue or 5801 Tabor. I have no
reason to doubt that this location was at one time a Kelly Brickyard as
Philadelphia natives volunteered this information. If you look either
address up at www.yahoo.com (under Maps) you will note that the adjacent
Naval installation is still identified as the 'US Naval Aviation Supply
Depot'. The WWII era reference to the 'Supply Depot' is recognized only in
Philadelphia. The Navy has moved on to different terminology. Traditions
die hard in Philadelphia.
      Immediately to the south of the 'Depot' was a Sears Store on Roosevelt
Boulevard which was a local landmark. Unfortunately, this structure was
recently demolished by implosion.
Best Wishes,
John A. Jenkins
6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA
Phone (425) 885-0595

--------------C23D7C475F91FEAC16D808CD-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 08:05:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:05:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <002501c12be3$22fc1180$89904d0c@o3n4f8> <3B855F2D.285B54FC@attglobal.net> <00d901c12be7$0f311840$89904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B85FCC9.76A49741@attglobal.net> Lloyd Grant and others ... There is a subject conspicuous by its absence in all the talk about debriefing. Debriefing was a very necessary part of our overall work. However, there was also the word CRITIQUE. We had many Group critiques where we would all talk over recent missions and different strategies. But the BEST critique of all, was, after any certain "tough" mission - or - a mission on which there may have been some foul-ups ... the leaders of all the Groups, Wings and Divisions, would congregate at Hq and be in on a HUGE critique by radio between all the various leaders. These critiques were VERY interesting and gave a lot of good information for correcting various problems. Each leader would introduce himself and give his lead call-sign and then discuss the various problems. Very very productive. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I would presume a certain amount of healthy skepticism was inherent to the > S-2 officers job in order to separate the "wheat from the chaff". And it is > likely true that many of the debriefing officers were junior in rank and > responsible to the agenda handed down by a " higher" authority. I hate to > think that information would purposely be with-held that might encumber, or > endanger combat crews. but, who is to say. Paranoia strikes deep in any > intelligence community. > > I really appreciate the responses on this subject. Thanks again. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Heller" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:53 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > > > J. Jenkins ... > > > > Anent debriefing. It was conducted by S2 which is the Intelligence Section > of > > a military operation. > > > > I can recall a certain debriefing after my crew had seen its FIRST > Me262.... He whispered to me, "Sir, we are NOT to see German Jets until > the Allies have > one in operation!" From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 08:23:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 03:23:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request References: <000c01c12c31$c4d1fbc0$e6e17ad1@markdonn> <3B854C0D.895.1A120B7@localhost> Message-ID: <001501c12c6d$b45dfb40$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> It has been several months since I checked, but the last time I found a used copy available thru Amazon books the owner of the book wanted more than it sold for new. I suspect that it would not be to your advantage to put an inflated value on the book for the purpose of probate. However, I will agree with Gary; as a reference, the book is a priceless resource. L. Grant. -- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Back on List and a Request The 2nd Edition of MIF sold for $75. I Mark, I should add that it is worth MUCH more than that. It's an invaluable resource. I treasure my copy - and it's getting worn! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 08:38:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 03:38:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers References: <002501c12be3$22fc1180$89904d0c@o3n4f8> <3B855F2D.285B54FC@attglobal.net> <00d901c12be7$0f311840$89904d0c@o3n4f8> <3B85FCC9.76A49741@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002d01c12c6f$bee73520$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. Sir, this is the sort of information that I was hoping would evolve from the "debriefing" discussions. Thank you for this contribution to our overall understanding. Lloyd. ---- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > Lloyd Grant and others ... > > There is a subject conspicuous by its absence in all the talk about debriefing. > Debriefing was a very necessary part of our overall work. > > However, there was also the word CRITIQUE. We had many Group critiques where we > would all talk over recent missions and different strategies. But the BEST > critique of all, was, after any certain "tough" mission - or - a mission on > which there may have been some foul-ups ... the leaders of all the Groups, > Wings and Divisions, would congregate at Hq and be in on a HUGE critique by > radio between all the various leaders. These critiques were VERY interesting > and gave a lot of good information for correcting various problems. Each > leader would introduce himself and give his lead call-sign and then discuss the > various problems. Very very productive. > > Cheers! > > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I would presume a certain amount of healthy skepticism was inherent to the > > S-2 officers job in order to separate the "wheat from the chaff". And it is > > likely true that many of the debriefing officers were junior in rank and > > responsible to the agenda handed down by a " higher" authority. I hate to > > think that information would purposely be with-held that might encumber, or > > endanger combat crews. but, who is to say. Paranoia strikes deep in any > > intelligence community. > > > > I really appreciate the responses on this subject. Thanks again. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Heller" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Photographers > > > > > J. Jenkins ... > > > > > > Anent debriefing. It was conducted by S2 which is the Intelligence Section > > of > > > a military operation. > > > > > > I can recall a certain debriefing after my crew had seen its FIRST > > Me262.... He whispered to me, "Sir, we are NOT to see German Jets until > > the Allies have > > one in operation!" > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:24:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:24:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RICH YOUNG Message-ID: <000501c12ca8$8816ad80$2fbb9ace@mjpmtman> RE:- "A KID IN '43"--- I was 21 and thought myself quite worldly, even though my esteemed mother came unglued when I told her - after going to welding school - that I was enlisting. From April 15, 1942 to Sept 28, 1945- It is surprising how much my father had LEARNED in those ensuing years.--The Nebraska Mt. Man aka Maurice Paulk Sorry I digress !!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:05:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:05:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: A very good friend of mine, Peter Robert, chairman of the East Anglian Aviation Society and keeper of the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn, had an interesting and sad story about the V-1s. As a child of about 10, he and his friends would play out in front of this ladies house in Cambridge. This lady had a piano and they would sit under her window and listen to her play. One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 and the piano was scattered about the street. Peter sent me an painting of this street and her house and it hangs on my wall in my office. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:46:11 -0400 > >Bill Heller. > >My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 attacks >were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of >these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the >street from her. I guess people could become complaiscent about taking to >the shelters every time an alert sounded. She said there was not a mark on >anyone of them except for a trickle of blood coming from the ears and >noses. > >I guess there wasn't much that could be done to counter the V2 attacks >except warn the people in an area where a strike appeared to be imminent. > >Thanks for chipping in on this topic. > >Lloyd. > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William Heller" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:59 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and >others, >in > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > installations. Not certain. > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting >story > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose of > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent after >the > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on the >ground, > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump >into >the > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the blast >for > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City >block >was > > about its destruction area. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on >the > > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that >these > > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:09:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:09:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target Germany Message-ID: Hey Mountain Man! I also have Target Germany. A friend and I flew on a B-17 a while back and got printed up in our local newspaper. For a week following that article, people kept dropping things off at my house. One was Target Germany. The other was an original edition of the May 8, 1945 Stars and Stripes proclaiming "GERMANY QUITS." Not sure where Target Germany was released. I never did find out who dropped all that stuff off. Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] MIGHT IN FLIGHT >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:34:35 -0500 > >HARRY GOBRECHT-- "Might In Flight"--- I thought I had one that was given to >me. WRONG.[not at $75!!] I looked in my foot locker and I had "The first >300" Which was handed out at the time in England. Also found "Target >Germany - cost $2. Printed I think in 1943. MY QUESTION is this did I buy >that some where or was it "issued " in 1943. It mentions paper shortage, >narrow margins, thinner paper and more words per page and a thinner book.OR >am I loosing my mrarbles.?????????????? To tell the truth this is the first >time I really looked at it. Very good photos , explanations and charts.--ON >SECOND THOUGHT MAYBE I AM LOOSING SOMETHING. > To quick old and too late smart!!!!!!!!!!!! MAURICE PAULK _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:30:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 Message-ID: Hi Jack: Those fins you mention were controlled by gyros all the way to the target and were considered far ahead of their time. Of course we had gyros and used them in bombsites, etc., but those on the V-2s were a newer kind and spun at a tremendous rate. And in several books I've read on the subject, the mobile V-2s had serious problems in the field because of fueling. Two reason for this. First, the fuel was highly volitile and the two fuels use could never come in contact with each other or they exploded. Several mobile V-2s blew up on the ground when the fuelers inadvertently put the wrong fuel in the wrong tank. Secondly because Allied aircraft at the end of the war attacked anything that moved. I've seen some pretty choice gun camera footage of truck blowing up that look like V-2 tenders. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:59:20 EDT > >Kevin, It wasn't a bit awful to be interrogated by our own. They were very >friendly and did not torture me. They were just doing their job and trying >to >get information. The truth is the V2s were so much advanced they just had >no >idea what they were looking for. They did not use a launcher or ramp. >They >had vanes in the rocket blast that would guide the rocket and balance it >and >stand the heat until the speed was great enough the outer fins not in the >jet >exhaust could take over. They could just stand it on its tail and fire it >from any flat place. I'm falling asleep. Good night Kevin. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:52:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:52:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak batteries as targets Message-ID: Yes, our fighters would attack flak batteries as a target of opportunity when they went down on the deck seeking out targets. In fact, all over Germany the Flak Towers are still there, albeit without the 88s and 105s. And on many of these Towers you can still see where the 50s pock marked them. Many of the Flak Towers became water towers after the war. Riding through Germany by train, you can still see the remains of the war on the older buildings close to the stations. Almost like stepping back in time. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:55:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:55:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly Message-ID: Getting 2,000 heavy bombers in the air and all headed in the right direction in right place in the bomber stream had to have been one of the bigger challenges of each mission. Did any of you ever have any close calls when forming up? And at what altitude would contrails begin forming. I know it would depend on the time of year and other atmospheric conditions, but any rules of thumb? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 11:05:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 06:05:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 References: Message-ID: <006901c12c84$440889c0$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> Kevin Pearson. This was the same fuel used to power the little "bumble-bee" rocket fighters. One part of the fuel was a concentrated form of Hydrogen Peroxide. I forget the other ingredient. The History Channel has a pretty good program that aired recently on the subject of this fuel and its use in both. It was highly corrosive and extremely volitle stuff. The program did not say where the components were manufactured, but I am sure it can be safely assumed that the facilities were separate. I wonder if allied Intelligence sources were ever able to identify and target the facilities that produced it. The German pilots that flew those "Bumble-Bee" rocket planes ( I use Mr. Hellers' descriptive analogy here) must have been dedicated fatalists who possessed nerves of tungsten. I think many of them were killed by the aircraft itself rather than by other means. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > Hi Jack: Those fins you mention were controlled by gyros all the way to the > target and were considered far ahead of their time. Of course we had gyros > and used them in bombsites, etc., but those on the V-2s were a newer kind > and spun at a tremendous rate. > > And in several books I've read on the subject, the mobile V-2s had serious > problems in the field because of fueling. Two reason for this. First, the > fuel was highly volitile and the two fuels use could never come in contact > with each other or they exploded. Several mobile V-2s blew up on the ground > when the fuelers inadvertently put the wrong fuel in the wrong tank. > Secondly because Allied aircraft at the end of the war attacked anything > that moved. I've seen some pretty choice gun camera footage of truck > blowing up that look like V-2 tenders. > Kevin > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:59:20 EDT > > > >Kevin, It wasn't a bit awful to be interrogated by our own. They were very > >friendly and did not torture me. They were just doing their job and trying > >to > >get information. The truth is the V2s were so much advanced they just had > >no > >idea what they were looking for. They did not use a launcher or ramp. > >They > >had vanes in the rocket blast that would guide the rocket and balance it > >and > >stand the heat until the speed was great enough the outer fins not in the > >jet > >exhaust could take over. They could just stand it on its tail and fire it > >from any flat place. I'm falling asleep. Good night Kevin. > > Jack Rencher > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 12:37:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:37:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 References: <006901c12c84$440889c0$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <008901c12c91$22358f20$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> I have my facts wrong here , I believe. Apparently the fuel for the V2 was a combination of alcohol and liquid oxygen. The missle would attain a height of 35 miles above the earth before descending onto the target area. Two sonic booms would herald its impending impact. On impact, the resulting explosion would devastate an area within approximately a 64m radius. The V2 was a mobile weapon which made it very difficult , if not virtually impossible, to attack. Set up time for 3 missles was about 2 hours and they could be launched from almost any small cleared area . There was no defense against these missles once they were launched and enroute to the target. It is providential that the Germans did not develop a nuclear warhead to attach to this missle. As a trained chemist, I wonder if Bill Jones might be able to comment on the combination of the fuel mixture that powered these rockets, and how they combined to create the required thrust. --- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > Kevin Pearson. > > This was the same fuel used to power the little "bumble-bee" rocket > fighters. One part of the fuel was a concentrated form of Hydrogen > Peroxide. I forget the other ingredient. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 18:35:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:35:14 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs References: <20010824070400.B959753536@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B869052.A1E9FF7D@qwest.net> Some other good books not mentioned so far are:
A Real Good War by Sam Halpert
Castles in the Air by Martin W. Bowman

"Castles" has been reissued with new photos and should be available at larger bookstores or online.
If you want to support a fellow Historical Association, you can get A Real Good War, The Ragged Irregulars, and Serenade to the Big Bird from the 91st BGMA at www.91stbombgroup.com.
Mary Ruth-Memories of Mobile by 91st historian Lowell Getz is available through the 8AF bookstore, and, of course, Bob Morgan, pilot of the Memphis Belle, has just released his autobiography.
There's another book called something like Assault on Fortress Europe, out of print, but available at most larger libraries. It's a good history and I think it's the one that has one of my favorite quotes: "When Hitler built Fortress Europe, he forgot to put a roof on it," referring to the success of the bombing efforts.

I second the favorable comments re Stiles' Serenade to the Big Bird. It does a great job of conveying in an irreverent way the sense of what it was like to be there (from what I've been told...I was but a future event at the time). It's somewhere between blind duty and Catch-22. Well-written and a quick read.

Lloyd...
Joe Harlick was a photographer for the 324th Sq/91BG and has a lot of good info re photo units. I can get you his address if you're still interested.

Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 18:59:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hans.reusink) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:59:41 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V1 AND V2. Message-ID: <003b01c12cc6$8cc5bb00$9f7e79c3@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C12CD7.4FFA9EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Kevin. I understand, you are very much interested in V1 and V2. I happen to live in the Netherlands at that time and saw many launches. You can see with you own eyes what a V1 and a V2 look like in Hutchinson = Kansas. They have a beautiful museum with all the details, you are looking for . The manager is a very good friend of mine, her Email is: = glenn@southwind.net sheryl Glenn is her name and she is willing to = answer all your questions. About the V1,I could give you much more info but we leave that for the = time being. Hope, I have given you sufficient info and if not please do call again = via the forum I am an associate member of the 303rd Bombgroup (H) for = many years. Enjoy your weekend, Hans Reusink. hans.reusink@planet.nl ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C12CD7.4FFA9EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Kevin.

I understand, you are very much = interested in V1=20 and V2.

I happen to live in the Netherlands at = that time=20 and saw many launches.

You can see with you own eyes what a V1 = and a V2=20 look like in Hutchinson Kansas.

They have a beautiful museum with all = the details,=20 you are looking for .

The manager is a very good friend of = mine, her=20 Email is: glenn@southwind.net = sheryl Glenn is her name and she is willing to answer all your=20 questions.

About the V1,I could give you much more info but we leave that for = the time=20 being.

Hope, I have given you sufficient info and if not please do call = again via=20 the forum I am an associate member of the 303rd Bombgroup (H) for many=20 years.

Enjoy your weekend, Hans Reusink. hans.reusink@planet.nl

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C12CD7.4FFA9EA0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 18:27:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:27:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly References: Message-ID: <3B868E69.49D9444B@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction WAS a tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that one plane was briefed to do at briefing. The leader took off; the next plane followed him; the next and the next. When they got to the Buncher Beacon around which the lead plane was circling, each plane took its place in the formation. First an element (three) and then the squadron (six or seven depending if a tailend charley was assigned). Then after the lead squadron of the group was formed, the next squadron lead took his place in the Group formation, (three squadrons). When this was done, THAT Group headed for a rendezvous point where the WING (three Groups) was formed. Then THAT Wing went to a predetermined place where it joined (or became) the Division force. Then THAT Division went to a predetermined point to take its place in the bomber column. THIS column then proceeded to the target areas assigned. Once near the target area, each Group left the Wing formation to bomb as a Group and then reformed into a Wing after the bombs were released. A GOOD Group leader would immediately slow down after bomb release so that stragglers and damaged planes may catch up, as it were. Frequently those planes on the inside of such a slowed down turn would be screaming because they were "stalling out" in their words. Once bombs left the plane, that same power which was used to carry the plane AND that bomb load, allowed the plane to accelerate. Consequently a slight retardation of the lead plane throttles was necessary IF you were to keep Group and Wing integrity of a decent formation. The Luftwaffe did not only attack on the WAY IN ... it attacked on the way out as well. As a leader of Squadrons, Groups, Wings and Division, to include overal strike force lead ... these attentions were very important. Also, when forming, you look at your papers and learn that the Wing joining at a certain spot was carrying incendiaries and was not in the proper place ... the Wing carrying demos should have been there. This posed a problem at times when Wings were doglegged to allow the proper Wings in the proper place in a bomber column. (After all, you want the DEMOS in FRONT of the incendiaries, or how can you burn what has not yet been totally destroyed)? And remember, you cannot CIRCLE a Wing in order to get him in the right place .... you dogleg! This happened very seldom, but it did happen now and then. Timing being of the essence, it was sometimes compromised. Maybe other former lead pilots can add to this. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Getting 2,000 heavy bombers in the air and all headed in the right direction > in right place in the bomber stream had to have been one of the bigger > challenges of each mission. Did any of you ever have any close calls when > forming up? And at what altitude would contrails begin forming. I know it > would depend on the time of year and other atmospheric conditions, but any > rules of thumb? > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 18:59:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:59:37 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 In-Reply-To: <008901c12c91$22358f20$e7904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <200108241807.f7OI7FL11938@ns1.megalink.net> On 24 Aug 01, at 7:37, Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I have my facts wrong here , I believe. > Apparently the fuel for the V2 was a combination of alcohol and liquid > oxygen. >...... > As a trained chemist, I wonder if Bill Jones might be able to comment on the > combination of the fuel mixture that powered these rockets, and how they > combined to create the required thrust. Although I once worked for a company that made rocket engines and propellants, I was in another section, and don't have much knowledge about rocket fuel, and have zero knowledge of what was used in the V2. Liquid oxygen does make more sense effeciency wise than hydrogen peroxide, as the oxidizer. Just about anything burns with liquid oxygen, and there wouldn't be wasted weight (about half the weight of the peroxide is wasted). I didn't realize that they had the technology to use LOX back then. On a related subject, people were discussing old movies and books, and someone mentioned the "Battle of Britain". I think that this was one of the first books I read on the subject many many years ago (I don't read much, so the fact that I made it through the book says something). It has been many years, but I think it is the book that had some chilling accounts of being on the ground and feeling safe when you could hear the sound of the "buzz bombs", which I think were the V1s, and the terror of when the sound ended, meaning that it was going to hit nearby. I remember reading something about being the target of the V2s, later in the war also, but I think that was in a different book. Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 19:43:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:43:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly Message-ID: Bill: Thanks for your great reply to my question! I have a few comments and questions to follow up. Seems like an answe always triggers several more questions. 1. I've been to all of the heavy bomber bases used by the 8th AF in East Anglia. And let me tell you, I doubt if more than 50 air miles separated the farthest two bases, with many in between. Putting up that many airplanes in such a confined air space, I am always amazed more ships weren't lost in assembly accidents. I once read in a book that one of six aircraft lost in the ETO was due to assembly accidents. Not sure how accurate that statement was, but when you visit all of the Tower museums, they are filled with parts of B-17s and B-24s dug up from the surrounding countryside. 2. I also heard that the route into the target was usually the same same route out to the IP with maybe a mile between incoming vs. outgoing planes. The reason is if a ship got hit by flak and couldn't keep up going into the target, the ship could do a 180 and form up with other groups coming off target. Did you ever experience this and was it a common practice? This never made sense to me because if the flak gunners knew your route in and altitude, those ships coming off target would be much easier targets. 3. I have read many accounts of bombing missions from start to finish. And every now and then you I read about a Group or Wing having to go around for another bombing run due to weather, navigational errors, etc. Did you ever have to fly more than one approach to the target? Ever fly more than three approaches to target? Bill, your memory of the air war is exceptional and I sincerely value all of your comments! You have helped fill the in the gaps in my undersatanding of what you men really did and how you did it - not the Hollywood version. Thanks a bunch! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Assembly >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:27:05 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction >WAS a >tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that >one >plane was briefed to do at briefing. The leader took off; the next plane >followed him; the next and the next. When they got to the Buncher Beacon >around which the lead plane was circling, each plane took its place in the >formation. First an element (three) and then the squadron (six or seven >depending if a tailend charley was assigned). Then after the lead squadron >of >the group was formed, the next squadron lead took his place in the Group >formation, (three squadrons). When this was done, THAT Group headed for a >rendezvous point where the WING (three Groups) was formed. Then THAT Wing >went >to a predetermined place where it joined (or became) the Division force. >Then >THAT Division went to a predetermined point to take its place in the bomber >column. THIS column then proceeded to the target areas assigned. Once near >the >target area, each Group left the Wing formation to bomb as a Group and then >reformed into a Wing after the bombs were released. > >A GOOD Group leader would immediately slow down after bomb release so that >stragglers and damaged planes may catch up, as it were. Frequently those >planes >on the inside of such a slowed down turn would be screaming because they >were >"stalling out" in their words. Once bombs left the plane, that same power >which was used to carry the plane AND that bomb load, allowed the plane to >accelerate. Consequently a slight retardation of the lead plane throttles >was >necessary IF you were to keep Group and Wing integrity of a decent >formation. >The Luftwaffe did not only attack on the WAY IN ... it attacked on the way >out >as well. As a leader of Squadrons, Groups, Wings and Division, to include >overal strike force lead ... these attentions were very important. Also, >when >forming, you look at your papers and learn that the Wing joining at a >certain >spot was carrying incendiaries and was not in the proper place ... the Wing >carrying demos should have been there. This posed a problem at times when >Wings >were doglegged to allow the proper Wings in the proper place in a bomber >column. (After all, you want the DEMOS in FRONT of the incendiaries, or how >can >you burn what has not yet been totally destroyed)? And remember, you >cannot >CIRCLE a Wing in order to get him in the right place .... you dogleg! This >happened very seldom, but it did happen now and then. Timing being of the >essence, it was sometimes compromised. > >Maybe other former lead pilots can add to this. > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Getting 2,000 heavy bombers in the air and all headed in the right >direction > > in right place in the bomber stream had to have been one of the bigger > > challenges of each mission. Did any of you ever have any close calls >when > > forming up? And at what altitude would contrails begin forming. I know >it > > would depend on the time of year and other atmospheric conditions, but >any > > rules of thumb? > > Kevin > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:13:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:13:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] S-2 References: <200108241807.f7OI7FL11938@ns1.megalink.net> Message-ID: <000f01c12ca6$f03234e0$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Jones. Hey, Bill, sorry to put you on the spot like that; none-the-less, thanks for your comments on the subject. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > On 24 Aug 01, at 7:37, Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I have my facts wrong here , I believe. > > Apparently the fuel for the V2 was a combination of alcohol and liquid > > oxygen. > >...... > > As a trained chemist, I wonder if Bill Jones might be able to comment on the > > combination of the fuel mixture that powered these rockets, and how they > > combined to create the required thrust. > > Although I once worked for a company that made rocket engines and > propellants, I was in another section, and don't have much knowledge > about rocket fuel, and have zero knowledge of what was used in the V2. > Liquid oxygen does make more sense effeciency wise than hydrogen > peroxide, as the oxidizer. Just about anything burns with liquid oxygen, > and there wouldn't be wasted weight (about half the weight of the > peroxide is wasted). I didn't realize that they had the technology to use > LOX back then. > > On a related subject, people were discussing old movies and books, > and someone mentioned the "Battle of Britain". I think that this was one > of the first books I read on the subject many many years ago (I don't read > much, so the fact that I made it through the book says something). It has > been many years, but I think it is the book that had some chilling > accounts of being on the ground and feeling safe when you could hear > the sound of the "buzz bombs", which I think were the V1s, and the > terror of when the sound ended, meaning that it was going to hit nearby. > I remember reading something about being the target of the V2s, later in > the war also, but I think that was in a different book. > > > > Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:16:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:16:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V1 AND V2. References: <003b01c12cc6$8cc5bb00$9f7e79c3@default> Message-ID: <001801c12ca7$5ec03560$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Hans Reusink. Thank you for the reference source, Hans. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hans.reusink" To: "KEVIN PEARSON" Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.COM> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:59 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] V1 AND V2. Dear Kevin. I understand, you are very much interested in V1 and V2. I happen to live in the Netherlands at that time and saw many launches. You can see with you own eyes what a V1 and a V2 look like in Hutchinson Kansas. They have a beautiful museum with all the details, you are looking for . The manager is a very good friend of mine, her Email is: glenn@southwind.net sheryl Glenn is her name and she is willing to answer all your questions. About the V1,I could give you much more info but we leave that for the time being. Hope, I have given you sufficient info and if not please do call again via the forum I am an associate member of the 303rd Bombgroup (H) for many years. Enjoy your weekend, Hans Reusink. hans.reusink@planet.nl From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 20:29:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:29:15 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_d34_1422_3e04 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mike: Thanks for jogging my brain with the name of Joe Harlick. Joe has just been an invaluable resource to my research on Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 322nd BS, 91st BG(H). He may be reached at owljojen@techline.com. Kevin >From: "Mike McClanahan" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:35:14 -0600 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------=_NextPart_000_d34_1422_3e04 Content-Type: message/rfc822 >From 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:49:52 -0700 Received: from [216.92.1.92] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD4FDE6F003340043148D85C015C07150; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:48:32 -0700 Received: from pairlist.net (localhost.pair.com [127.0.0.1]) by pairlist.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6346A536E7; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: 303rd-talk@pairlist.net Received: from arda.pair.com (arda.pair.com [209.68.1.133]) by pairlist.net (Postfix) with SMTP id DBA98536FD for <303rd-talk@lists.303rdbga.com>; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 74040 invoked by uid 62225); 24 Aug 2001 17:42:50 -0000 Delivered-To: glm-303rdbga:com-303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Received: (qmail 74036 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2001 17:42:50 -0000 Received: from dnvrpop3.dnvr.uswest.net (206.196.128.5) by arda.pair.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 2001 17:42:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 10988 invoked by uid 0); 24 Aug 2001 17:36:08 -0000 Received: from dnvr-dsl-gw20-poolc19.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO qwest.net) (65.100.146.20) by dnvrpop3.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Aug 2001 17:36:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3B869052.A1E9FF7D@qwest.net> From: "Mike McClanahan" To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20010824070400.B959753536@pairlist.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Errors-To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com X-BeenThere: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: 303rd Bomb Group Forum <303rd-talk.303rdBGA.com> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:35:14 -0600 Some other good books not mentioned so far are:
A Real Good War by Sam Halpert
Castles in the Air by Martin W. Bowman

Lloyd...
Joe Harlick was a photographer for the 324th Sq/91BG and has a lot of good info re photo units. I can get you his address if you're still interested.

Mike McClanahan ------=_NextPart_000_d34_1422_3e04-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 20:33:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Michael Baldock) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:33:08 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: Message-ID: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> The terrifying thing about the V-1 was that you could hear it approaching and you would pray that it would keep going and land somewhere else. They came down pretty quickly too once the pulse jet cut out. I met my uncle a couple of weeks ago, have not seen him for a few years and like my Mum he was evacuated at the start of the war. They used to live in Great Yarmouth in Norfolk in a terraced house not that far from the docks and he told me that the Germans used to fly close by the docks and drop parachute mines which in the right wind conditions would drift in over the town and explode in the streets. One such mine struck the road where they had lived and totally destroyed several houses killing several people. His view was that this was just a deliberate attempt to wreak more destruction and terrify the local populace. Landmines were pretty destructive - but at least the air raid sirens had sounded and given some warning although being on the North Sea the amount of warning was quite short. Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's generation are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by the Germans. Michael Baldock Guildford, England ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > A very good friend of mine, Peter Robert, chairman of the East Anglian > Aviation Society and keeper of the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn, had an > interesting and sad story about the V-1s. As a child of about 10, he and > his friends would play out in front of this ladies house in Cambridge. This > lady had a piano and they would sit under her window and listen to her play. > One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 and > the piano was scattered about the street. Peter sent me an painting of this > street and her house and it hangs on my wall in my office. > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:46:11 -0400 > > > >Bill Heller. > > > >My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 attacks > >were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of > >these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the > >street from her. I guess people could become complaiscent about taking to > >the shelters every time an alert sounded. She said there was not a mark on > >anyone of them except for a trickle of blood coming from the ears and > >noses. > > > >I guess there wasn't much that could be done to counter the V2 attacks > >except warn the people in an area where a strike appeared to be imminent. > > > >Thanks for chipping in on this topic. > > > >Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "William Heller" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:59 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and > >others, > >in > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting > >story > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose of > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent after > >the > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on the > >ground, > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump > >into > >the > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the blast > >for > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City > >block > >was > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > > > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based on > >the > > > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware that > >these > > > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > > > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > > > > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 20:34:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:34:12 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Whoops! V-2s Message-ID: Lloyd and all: Man, I must really be off my nut today! I could have sworn I read the the two fuels for the V-2 were an explosive combination, and that the V-2s weren't very mobile because of our air superiority. It's back to school for me, guys, and I hope others out there can teach this misguided soul the facts. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:37:17 -0400 > >I have my facts wrong here , I believe. >Apparently the fuel for the V2 was a combination of alcohol and liquid >oxygen. The missle would attain a height of 35 miles above the earth >before >descending onto the target area. Two sonic booms would herald its >impending >impact. On impact, the resulting explosion would devastate an area within >approximately a 64m radius. The V2 was a mobile weapon which made it very >difficult , if not virtually impossible, to attack. Set up time for 3 >missles was about 2 hours and they could be launched from almost any small >cleared area . There was no defense against these missles once they were >launched and enroute to the target. >It is providential that the Germans did not develop a nuclear warhead to >attach to this missle. > >As a trained chemist, I wonder if Bill Jones might be able to comment on >the >combination of the fuel mixture that powered these rockets, and how they >combined to create the required thrust. > >--- Original Message ----- >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:05 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] S-2 > > > > Kevin Pearson. > > > > This was the same fuel used to power the little "bumble-bee" rocket > > fighters. One part of the fuel was a concentrated form of Hydrogen > > Peroxide. I forget the other ingredient. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 20:47:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:47:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly In-Reply-To: <3B868E69.49D9444B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <200108241949.f7OJn9L14749@ns1.megalink.net> On 24 Aug 01, at 10:27, William Heller wrote: > Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction WAS a > tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that one > plane was briefed to do at briefing. The leader took off; the next plane > followed him; the next and the next. When they got to the Buncher Beacon > around which the lead plane was circling, each plane took its place in the > formation. First an element (three) and then the squadron (six or seven > depending if a tailend charley was assigned). Then after the lead squadron of > the group was formed, the next squadron lead took his place in the Group > formation, (three squadrons). I may be mistaken, but the formation you describe above sounds like the earlier "box" formation, ie prior to D-day. I assume the assembly of the later 13 plane squadron formations would be similar, however I am curious about whether the behavior during the bomb run was also similar? Ie you said: >..... Once near the > target area, each Group left the Wing formation to bomb as a Group and then > reformed into a Wing after the bombs were released. You say you bombed as a group. I assume this was referring to the early box formation. Target for Today (which I assume you were in) shows how the wing split up into groups by turning at the IP at 20 sec intervals. Am I assuming right that later with the 13 plane squadron formation, that what constituted the wing in your description, really described the group? Ie I assume that with the squadron formations that the group broke up into 3 separate squadrons at the IP. Did they still use the 20 second interval technique of the lead squadron turning at the IP, but the high and low turning 20 and 40 seconds after the IP? Or did all three squadrons turn at the IP? (I think I asked this once before, but I was still confused after the answers. I'm a slow learner, so I have to ask a question multiple times, sorry. ) > And remember, you cannot > CIRCLE a Wing in order to get him in the right place .... you dogleg! This > happened very seldom, but it did happen now and then. Timing being of the > essence, it was sometimes compromised. I am amazed that timing was accomplished given all the variables. One mission I have been reading about was intended to have assembly occur at 12,000' , but due to clouds, the 303rd had to go up to 22,000'. It seems like this would have to take at least another 20-30 minutes or more to get up to the higher altitude (actually, in reading the B-17 manual, I'm not sure I understand that it was possible to get a fully loaded plane up that high until it lost some weight? The charts don't show a fully loaded plane going that high, but obviously it must be possible.). Anyway, assuming that some other groups were able to assemble at the planned altitude, how was it possible to keep all the different groups on the original schedule??? Really sounds hard to me. Actually, on a clear day it sounds hard, but on a cloudy day, it sounds impossible. Also, re the dog-legging, I read some notes about zig-zagging and something called an SOP-8. Is that related to the dog-legging? I've also read notes about cutting corners of the planned route to catch up to the formation. That might be what you meant too? Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 15:51:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:51:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs References: <20010824070400.B959753536@pairlist.net> <3B869052.A1E9FF7D@qwest.net> Message-ID: <002001c12cac$41061800$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Mike McClanahan. In the Molesworth tape that we have been circulating there is mention of a 91st BG plane called the Delta Rebel, piloted by (at the time) Lt. George Birdsong. On the way over, Delta Rebel tagged on to some 303rd planes leaving Gander enroute to the ETO ( late '42). Birdsong was later to become my Dads' CO in the B-47 Group stationed at McDill, AFB in the early '50's. Our friend, and fellow contributor, Gordy Alton, is also associated with the 91st. With regard to the question I posted re. Combat Photographers, yes, I am very interested in any information available on that subject. I realize that in practice procedures may have varied somewhat from Group to Group, but the job description was about the same no matter. We all learn from asking questions; the more we learn, the better able we are to intelligently phrase future questions. I think the goal here, and in associated Groups, is to add to the common pool of accurate information with the long term goal being to preserve the memory , and memories, of the men who served. The best resource for those of us dedicated to this end is mutual cooperation and the willingness to share information. I would indeed like to know how to get in touch with Mr. Harlick. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion, Mr. McClanahan. Lloyd. It's somewhere between blind duty and Catch-22.... Lloyd... > Joe Harlick was a photographer for the 324th Sq/91BG and has a lot of good info re photo units. I can get you his address if you're still interested. > > Mike McClanahan > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 20:55:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:55:24 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Book List References: <20010824070400.B959753536@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B86B12C.14C65416@qwest.net> Apologies to Gary and the rest of you for the bugger-uppery of my earlier post re books. I sent it in HTML instead of plain text. Maybe this will be more readable--- ************* Some other good books not mentioned so far are: A Real Good War by Sam Halpert Castles in the Air by Martin W. Bowman "Castles" has been reissued with new photos and should be available at larger bookstores or online. If you want to support a fellow Historical Association, you can get A Real Good War, The Ragged Irregulars, and Serenade to the Big Bird from the 91st BGMA at www.91stbombgroup.com. Mary Ruth-Memories of Mobile by 91st historian Lowell Getz is available through the 8AF bookstore, and, of course, Bob Morgan, pilot of the Memphis Belle, has just released his autobiography. There's another book called something like Assault on Fortress Europe, out of print, but available at most larger libraries. It's a good history and I think it's the one that has one of my favorite quotes: "When Hitler built Fortress Europe, he forgot to put a roof on it," referring to the success of the bombing efforts. I second the favorable comments re Stiles' Serenade to the Big Bird. It does a great job of conveying in an irreverent way the sense of what it was like to be there (from what I've been told...I was but a future event at the time). It's somewhere between blind duty and Catch-22. Well-written and a quick read. Lloyd... Joe Harlick was a photographer for the 324th Sq/91BG and has a lot of good info re photo units. I can get you his address if you're still interested. Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 21:14:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:14:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly References: Message-ID: <3B86B58C.5E5E4CB3@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Yes, there WAS congestion. Some Bases as close as three air miles. However, expert command sorted all this out and YES there WERE collisions. But NOT as many as you suggest. Also the routes in and out were NOT the same. many times the route out was a hundred or more miles different than the route in. The strategy of this was to fly over as many German cities as possible, because THAT city did NOT know whether or not you had dropped your bombs and THEY went into all those lost man ours starting ambulances and people going into shelters, hospitals getting ready, etc. Because they did not know. At times, this was disconcertion to crews for they wanted to get home QUICKLY. But this was war. You claim my recall is quite good. Well, fellow, those two years in the ETO were the most VIVID of my life. They remain so, today. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill: Thanks for your great reply to my question! I have a few comments > and questions to follow up. Seems like an answe always triggers several > more questions. > > 1. I've been to all of the heavy bomber bases used by the 8th AF in East > Anglia. And let me tell you, I doubt if more than 50 air miles separated > the farthest two bases, with many in between. Putting up that many > airplanes in such a confined air space, I am always amazed more ships > weren't lost in assembly accidents. I once read in a book that one of six > aircraft lost in the ETO was due to assembly accidents. Not sure how > accurate that statement was, but when you visit all of the Tower museums, > they are filled with parts of B-17s and B-24s dug up from the surrounding > countryside. > 2. I also heard that the route into the target was usually the same same > route out to the IP with maybe a mile between incoming vs. outgoing planes. > The reason is if a ship got hit by flak and couldn't keep up going into the > target, the ship could do a 180 and form up with other groups coming off > target. Did you ever experience this and was it a common practice? This > never made sense to me because if the flak gunners knew your route in and > altitude, those ships coming off target would be much easier targets. > 3. I have read many accounts of bombing missions from start to finish. And > every now and then you I read about a Group or Wing having to go around for > another bombing run due to weather, navigational errors, etc. Did you ever > have to fly more than one approach to the target? Ever fly more than three > approaches to target? > > Bill, your memory of the air war is exceptional and I sincerely value all of > your comments! You have helped fill the in the gaps in my undersatanding of > what you men really did and how you did it - not the Hollywood version. > Thanks a bunch! > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Assembly > >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:27:05 -0700 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction > >WAS a > >tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that > >one > >plane was briefed to do at briefing. The leader took off; the next plane > >followed him; the next and the next. When they got to the Buncher Beacon > >around which the lead plane was circling, each plane took its place in the > >formation. First an element (three) and then the squadron (six or seven > >depending if a tailend charley was assigned). Then after the lead squadron > >of > >the group was formed, the next squadron lead took his place in the Group > >formation, (three squadrons). When this was done, THAT Group headed for a > >rendezvous point where the WING (three Groups) was formed. Then THAT Wing > >went > >to a predetermined place where it joined (or became) the Division force. > >Then > >THAT Division went to a predetermined point to take its place in the bomber > >column. THIS column then proceeded to the target areas assigned. Once near > >the > >target area, each Group left the Wing formation to bomb as a Group and then > >reformed into a Wing after the bombs were released. > > > >A GOOD Group leader would immediately slow down after bomb release so that > >stragglers and damaged planes may catch up, as it were. Frequently those > >planes > >on the inside of such a slowed down turn would be screaming because they > >were > >"stalling out" in their words. Once bombs left the plane, that same power > >which was used to carry the plane AND that bomb load, allowed the plane to > >accelerate. Consequently a slight retardation of the lead plane throttles > >was > >necessary IF you were to keep Group and Wing integrity of a decent > >formation. > >The Luftwaffe did not only attack on the WAY IN ... it attacked on the way > >out > >as well. As a leader of Squadrons, Groups, Wings and Division, to include > >overal strike force lead ... these attentions were very important. Also, > >when > >forming, you look at your papers and learn that the Wing joining at a > >certain > >spot was carrying incendiaries and was not in the proper place ... the Wing > >carrying demos should have been there. This posed a problem at times when > >Wings > >were doglegged to allow the proper Wings in the proper place in a bomber > >column. (After all, you want the DEMOS in FRONT of the incendiaries, or how > >can > >you burn what has not yet been totally destroyed)? And remember, you > >cannot > >CIRCLE a Wing in order to get him in the right place .... you dogleg! This > >happened very seldom, but it did happen now and then. Timing being of the > >essence, it was sometimes compromised. > > > >Maybe other former lead pilots can add to this. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Getting 2,000 heavy bombers in the air and all headed in the right > >direction > > > in right place in the bomber stream had to have been one of the bigger > > > challenges of each mission. Did any of you ever have any close calls > >when > > > forming up? And at what altitude would contrails begin forming. I know > >it > > > would depend on the time of year and other atmospheric conditions, but > >any > > > rules of thumb? > > > Kevin > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 16:21:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:21:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly References: <3B868E69.49D9444B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002601c12cb0$715bea80$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. I have read some outstanding replies to the questions we ask here. This one gets an A+ rating in my book. ( no flattery intended). Very well explained and easily understandable. The mental image is enhanced greatly by your explaination of how the planes assembled and formed. The question has been asked before, and answered. This is the first time I have derived such a vivid mental picture of the event, and a comparable understanding. Well done, sir. Thank you. ( perhaps in the long run, some redundancy will lead to much better understanding . On behalf of the befuddled few; cheers!) Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Assembly > Kevin ... > > Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction WAS a > tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that one > plane was briefed to do at briefing.... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 21:17:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:17:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly References: <200108241949.f7OJn9L14749@ns1.megalink.net> Message-ID: <3B86B655.6E27DEE1@attglobal.net> Jones ... That later 13 plane formation about which you speak was, in some cases, merely an experiement. I led some of them. They were, in a sense, also a "box" formation but merely strung out more because we "thought" we had air supremacy. I had one such Group over Berlin late in the war and we got our ass shot off! Also a lot of Me262s did the work. The box formation about which you speak was our mainstay. Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > On 24 Aug 01, at 10:27, William Heller wrote: > > > Getting 1000 or 2000 bombers in the air and headed in the right direction WAS a > > tremendous feat. However, it was done one plane at a time, doing what that one > > plane was briefed to do at briefing. The leader took off; the next plane > > followed him; the next and the next. When they got to the Buncher Beacon > > around which the lead plane was circling, each plane took its place in the > > formation. First an element (three) and then the squadron (six or seven > > depending if a tailend charley was assigned). Then after the lead squadron of > > the group was formed, the next squadron lead took his place in the Group > > formation, (three squadrons). > > I may be mistaken, but the formation you describe above sounds like the > earlier "box" formation, ie prior to D-day. I assume the assembly of the > later 13 plane squadron formations would be similar, however I am > curious about whether the behavior during the bomb run was also > similar? Ie you said: > > >..... Once near the > > target area, each Group left the Wing formation to bomb as a Group and then > > reformed into a Wing after the bombs were released. > > You say you bombed as a group. I assume this was referring to the early > box formation. Target for Today (which I assume you were in) shows > how the wing split up into groups by turning at the IP at 20 sec intervals. > Am I assuming right that later with the 13 plane squadron formation, that > what constituted the wing in your description, really described the group? > Ie I assume that with the squadron formations that the group broke up > into 3 separate squadrons at the IP. Did they still use the 20 second > interval technique of the lead squadron turning at the IP, but the high and > low turning 20 and 40 seconds after the IP? Or did all three squadrons > turn at the IP? (I think I asked this once before, but I was still confused > after the answers. I'm a slow learner, so I have to ask a question multiple > times, sorry. ) > > > And remember, you cannot > > CIRCLE a Wing in order to get him in the right place .... you dogleg! This > > happened very seldom, but it did happen now and then. Timing being of the > > essence, it was sometimes compromised. > > I am amazed that timing was accomplished given all the variables. One > mission I have been reading about was intended to have assembly occur > at 12,000' , but due to clouds, the 303rd had to go up to 22,000'. It > seems like this would have to take at least another 20-30 minutes or > more to get up to the higher altitude (actually, in reading the B-17 > manual, I'm not sure I understand that it was possible to get a fully > loaded plane up that high until it lost some weight? The charts don't > show a fully loaded plane going that high, but obviously it must be > possible.). Anyway, assuming that some other groups were able to > assemble at the planned altitude, how was it possible to keep all the > different groups on the original schedule??? Really sounds hard to me. > Actually, on a clear day it sounds hard, but on a cloudy day, it sounds > impossible. > Also, re the dog-legging, I read some notes about zig-zagging and > something called an SOP-8. Is that related to the dog-legging? I've also > read notes about cutting corners of the planned route to catch up to the > formation. That might be what you meant too? > > Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 16:28:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:28:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <002e01c12cb1$71132c40$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Twice, the English and fellow Brits have paid the price for that lesson. Let's hope that the concept of a United Planet will some day find fruition in fact, more than in Polyanna. Don't hold your breath too long tho. LG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Baldock" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > The terrifying thing about the V-1 was that you could hear it approaching > and you would pray that it would keep going and land somewhere else. They > came down pretty quickly too once the pulse jet cut out. > > I met my uncle a couple of weeks ago, have not seen him for a few years and > like my Mum he was evacuated at the start of the war. They used to live in > Great Yarmouth in Norfolk in a terraced house not that far from the docks > and he told me that the Germans used to fly close by the docks and drop > parachute mines which in the right wind conditions would drift in over the > town and explode in the streets. One such mine struck the road where they > had lived and totally destroyed several houses killing several people. His > view was that this was just a deliberate attempt to wreak more destruction > and terrify the local populace. Landmines were pretty destructive - but at > least the air raid sirens had sounded and given some warning although being > on the North Sea the amount of warning was quite short. > > Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's generation > are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by the > Germans. > > Michael Baldock > Guildford, England > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > A very good friend of mine, Peter Robert, chairman of the East Anglian > > Aviation Society and keeper of the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn, had an > > interesting and sad story about the V-1s. As a child of about 10, he and > > his friends would play out in front of this ladies house in Cambridge. > This > > lady had a piano and they would sit under her window and listen to her > play. > > One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 > and > > the piano was scattered about the street. Peter sent me an painting of > this > > street and her house and it hangs on my wall in my office. > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:46:11 -0400 > > > > > >Bill Heller. > > > > > >My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 attacks > > >were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one > of > > >these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the > > >street from her. I guess people could become complaiscent about taking > to > > >the shelters every time an alert sounded. She said there was not a mark > on > > >anyone of them except for a trickle of blood coming from the ears and > > >noses. > > > > > >I guess there wasn't much that could be done to counter the V2 attacks > > >except warn the people in an area where a strike appeared to be imminent. > > > > > >Thanks for chipping in on this topic. > > > > > >Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "William Heller" > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:59 PM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and > > >others, > > >in > > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting > > >story > > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose > of > > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent > after > > >the > > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on the > > >ground, > > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump > > >into > > >the > > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the > blast > > >for > > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City > > >block > > >was > > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > > > > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and versitile > > > > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > > > > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries based > on > > >the > > > > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware > that > > >these > > > > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed in > > > > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 21:47:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:47:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly In-Reply-To: <3B86B655.6E27DEE1@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <200108242048.f7OKmuL16411@ns1.megalink.net> On 24 Aug 01, at 13:17, William Heller wrote: > Jones ... > > That later 13 plane formation about which you speak was, in some cases, merely an > experiement. I led some of them. They were, in a sense, also a "box" formation but > merely strung out more because we "thought" we had air supremacy. I had one such > Group over Berlin late in the war and we got our ass shot off! Also a lot of Me262s > did the work. > > The box formation about which you speak was our mainstay. > I don't think I explained myself properly. I know what you mean about the spread out "V" formation used in Apr 1945, but that's not what I meant. I was referring to the later version of the BOX, that some people refer to as a squadron formation, ie : Early in the war, the "BOX" was an 18-20 plane formation composed as you described, of 3 squadrons of 6 or 7 planes. Approximately around D-day, apparently they switched to a 13 plane box that was referred to as a squadron formation, composed of 4 flights (3 of 3 planes and one of 4 planes), usually all from one squadron. From looking through the CDROM and microfilm records, this was used from May 1944 through March 1945, which is about half of the 303rds missions. What I'm still a bit confused about is that I've been assuming that the descriptions I've read about how the early wings split up into groups at the IP (like you described) was probably the same later, just that the Group split up into Squadrons, that bombed independently. Ie apparently : Early in the war: Division--> Wing---> Group (ie the group bombed as a unit) was pretty much equivalent to: later in the war: Wing----> Group ---->Squadron (ie Squadron bombed as a unit) You flew in both types, so I'm curious whether the behavior of the squadrons at the IP later in the war was the same as the behavior of the Group at the IP earlier in the war, with respect to how they separated (?20 sec intervals?), and rejoined afterwards? Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 16:59:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:59:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Whoops! V-2s References: Message-ID: <003901c12cb5$c8bb37e0$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Well, Kevin, from what I have read ( after making my history channel related gaffe) the fuel WAS bloody unstable and dangerous to handle, and most anyone in the vicinity of it who knew what might happen if the two came into inadvertant contact was as close to a nervous wreck as a sane man could be. If I am to believe my sources ( not necessarily the history channel in this event) the V2 was also mobile. Whether or not it was "highly" mobile, well, I am not so sure. I suppose if someone in the fueling party screwed up and mixed the two propellant agents together, it could very likely have been a "Highly Mobile Missle". ( show a grin, pard). Once back in the early sixties I invited Mr. Von Braun over for afternoon tea and a discussion of rocket related subjects. He begged off, and that is probably a good thing as my Mother was not keen on the idea. Lloyd ( ps did the web page I sent make it?) Anyone ever heard of a "Wasserfall" AA missle? Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Whoops! V-2s > Lloyd and all: Man, I must really be off my nut today! I could have sworn > I read the the two fuels for the V-2 were an explosive combination, and that > the V-2s weren't very mobile because of our air superiority. > > >Apparently the fuel for the V2 was a combination of alcohol and liquid > >oxygen... > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 22:38:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Pierce, Gregory S) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:38:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Captain (Clark) Gable Message-ID: <11A611A7F867C24EB1968E0D60B6E7BC07E3F4FB@XCH-NW-04.nw.nos.boeing.com> A few of the boys here in the State chapter recall Captain (Clark) Gable as a "regular" guy who was good at drinking and playing poker. I know that Capt. Gable did a number of AAF films including "Combat America." I believe he spent sometime up with the 303rd in 1943.... yes? Any other memories of his time at Molesworth? Kind Regards to the preservers of Liberty. Gregory Pierce 8th AFHS - WA E-mail Gregory.Pierce@PSS.Boeing.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 24 23:20:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:20:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bombsights Message-ID: <000601c12ceb$2c954000$0d94e0d8@h4k3401> To All, - - - - In my reading of different books on the subject of the 8th. A.A.F. bomb groups I have noticed that while the B-17s were equipped with the famous Norden sight it seems that the B-24s were equipped with the Sperry sight. If the Norden was the superior instrument then why wasn't the Liberator also given the Norden? I've never really understood exactly how either one worked but if the Norden was more accurate at the higher altitudes that the Fortresses flew, then maybe that, coupled with limited production factors, would explain why the B-24s were issued the inferior device. Maybe it wasn't inferior at all, just a little different. The Norden certainly got all the publicity, much like the B-17 got all the publicity. Was the Sperry bombsight considered top secret, to never be left anattended like the Norden, which was removed from the plane when not on a mission? Please don't get me wrong! I'm not suggesting that the Norden, or the B-17, didn't deserve the fame, I'm just trying to get a better understanding. This is something I've wondered about for many years. Did any of the bombardiers in the group have experience with both types? Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and my best regards to every one. - - - - Dave Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 03:40:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:40:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs In-Reply-To: <002001c12cac$41061800$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: Howdy. Joe lives just south of me in WA. I have seen his collection, and it is huge. He has almost 14,000 photos. Joe and his wife Jenny are a couple of the nicest people you could meet. They are going to England with me and my son in Oct., along with 30 others, for the 91stBG "One Last Time" tour. Joe posted some of his story on the 91st Bomb Group website, if you want to read it. There are some awful good things there, if you haven't been yet...Jim and Suzi Sheperd do a great job of keeping the site one of the best... http://www.91stbombgroup.com/ Check it out. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 phone 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com "tailgunnerson" **************************************** -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J Grant Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:51 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #366 - 22 msgs Mike McClanahan. In the Molesworth tape that we have been circulating there is mention of a 91st BG plane called the Delta Rebel, piloted by (at the time) Lt. George Birdsong. On the way over, Delta Rebel tagged on to some 303rd planes leaving Gander enroute to the ETO ( late '42). Birdsong was later to become my Dads' CO in the B-47 Group stationed at McDill, AFB in the early '50's. Our friend, and fellow contributor, Gordy Alton, is also associated with the 91st. With regard to the question I posted re. Combat Photographers, yes, I am very interested in any information available on that subject. I realize that in practice procedures may have varied somewhat from Group to Group, but the job description was about the same no matter. We all learn from asking questions; the more we learn, the better able we are to intelligently phrase future questions. I think the goal here, and in associated Groups, is to add to the common pool of accurate information with the long term goal being to preserve the memory , and memories, of the men who served. The best resource for those of us dedicated to this end is mutual cooperation and the willingness to share information. I would indeed like to know how to get in touch with Mr. Harlick. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion, Mr. McClanahan. Lloyd. It's somewhere between blind duty and Catch-22.... Lloyd... > Joe Harlick was a photographer for the 324th Sq/91BG and has a lot of good info re photo units. I can get you his address if you're still interested. > > Mike McClanahan > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 06:32:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:32:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] sperry sight Message-ID: <001a01c12d27$4632e6c0$62d04dd1@computer> Dave Young: I am Ed Lamme, bombardier 427thsqdn. I had some close friends and classmates with the 44thBG, a B-24 group. I am sure they used the Norden sight. I had some experience in bombardier school at Kirtland AB with the Sperry sight in early 1942. I liked it. It did not have the problem with maintaining the level bubbles in the bombsight gyro that was a problem with the Norden until late 44 or 45 when a device came out that automatically would level the bubbles. I never used that so don't know anything about it. Also, to my recollection, the horizontal gyro that was part of the C=1 autopilot system wasnot an integral part of the Sperry. The 44th BG was part of the first raid on Ploesti, which was low level (tree top). My friends who managed to survive told me they used the D-8 sight for that mission as a Norden would have been useless. Never heard of a Sperry sight being used in combat, but with mental frailties due to age, I could be wrong. Hope this helps. A D-8 sight was a simple device somewhat akin to the RAF sight and quite effective on low level or area bombing raids from slightly higher altitudes. I also am reminded of an English film which featured Wellington bombers called Bombers Moon which I saw in England. It was quite authentic and had some glorious background music. My tour was finished Sept 7, 43 so am unfamiliar with tactics and equipment which came later . all the best From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 07:38:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:38:59 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> <002e01c12cb1$71132c40$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B874803.66435414@attglobal.net> L. Grant ... When there is a united planet, there will be no more US of A to bail out all these losers when they get in trouble militarily or economically ... If you want global communism, go for it ... Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Twice, the English and fellow Brits have paid the price for that lesson. > Let's hope that the concept of a United Planet will some day find fruition > in fact, more than in Polyanna. Don't hold your breath too long tho. > LG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Baldock" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > The terrifying thing about the V-1 was that you could hear it approaching > > and you would pray that it would keep going and land somewhere else. They > > came down pretty quickly too once the pulse jet cut out. > > > > I met my uncle a couple of weeks ago, have not seen him for a few years > and > > like my Mum he was evacuated at the start of the war. They used to live in > > Great Yarmouth in Norfolk in a terraced house not that far from the docks > > and he told me that the Germans used to fly close by the docks and drop > > parachute mines which in the right wind conditions would drift in over the > > town and explode in the streets. One such mine struck the road where they > > had lived and totally destroyed several houses killing several people. His > > view was that this was just a deliberate attempt to wreak more destruction > > and terrify the local populace. Landmines were pretty destructive - but at > > least the air raid sirens had sounded and given some warning although > being > > on the North Sea the amount of warning was quite short. > > > > Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's generation > > are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by the > > Germans. > > > > Michael Baldock > > Guildford, England > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kevin Pearson > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:05 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > A very good friend of mine, Peter Robert, chairman of the East Anglian > > > Aviation Society and keeper of the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn, had an > > > interesting and sad story about the V-1s. As a child of about 10, he > and > > > his friends would play out in front of this ladies house in Cambridge. > > This > > > lady had a piano and they would sit under her window and listen to her > > play. > > > One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 > > and > > > the piano was scattered about the street. Peter sent me an painting of > > this > > > street and her house and it hangs on my wall in my office. > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:46:11 -0400 > > > > > > > >Bill Heller. > > > > > > > >My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 > attacks > > > >were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of > one > > of > > > >these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of > the > > > >street from her. I guess people could become complaiscent about taking > > to > > > >the shelters every time an alert sounded. She said there was not a > mark > > on > > > >anyone of them except for a trickle of blood coming from the ears and > > > >noses. > > > > > > > >I guess there wasn't much that could be done to counter the V2 attacks > > > >except warn the people in an area where a strike appeared to be > imminent. > > > > > > > >Thanks for chipping in on this topic. > > > > > > > >Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "William Heller" > > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:59 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and > > > >others, > > > >in > > > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting > > > >story > > > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose > > of > > > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent > > after > > > >the > > > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on > the > > > >ground, > > > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump > > > >into > > > >the > > > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the > > blast > > > >for > > > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City > > > >block > > > >was > > > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > Bill Heller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It seems that the .88 was probably the most effective and > versitile > > > > > > artillery weapon the Germans employed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Was any special effort made to attack anti-aircraft batteries > based > > on > > > >the > > > > > > target information accumulated during debriefings? ( I am aware > > that > > > >these > > > > > > installations were very mobile, but that they were also installed > in > > > > > > relatively fixed locations as well). > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your responses. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 07:42:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:42:29 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Assembly References: <200108242048.f7OKmuL16411@ns1.megalink.net> Message-ID: <3B8748D5.26E8BFAC@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... I must have been in dreamworld, for I never saw all those 13 ship boxes about which you speak. Most of our formations were of the 18-21 plane configuration and all the missions sheerts in most of Gobrecht's book AND the CD, shows this. But, then again, at times I DID wonder where I was .... Bill Jones wrote: > On 24 Aug 01, at 13:17, William Heller wrote: > > > Jones ... > > > > That later 13 plane formation about which you speak was, in some cases, merely an > > experiement. I led some of them. They were, in a sense, also a "box" formation but > > merely strung out more because we "thought" we had air supremacy. I had one such > > Group over Berlin late in the war and we got our ass shot off! Also a lot of Me262s > > did the work. > > > > The box formation about which you speak was our mainstay. > > > > I don't think I explained myself properly. I know what you mean about the spread > out "V" formation used in Apr 1945, but that's not what I meant. I was referring to > the later version of the BOX, that some people refer to as a squadron formation, ie : > Early in the war, the "BOX" was an 18-20 plane formation composed as you > described, of 3 squadrons of 6 or 7 planes. Approximately around D-day, > apparently they switched to a 13 plane box that was referred to as a squadron > formation, composed of 4 flights (3 of 3 planes and one of 4 planes), usually all > from one squadron. From looking through the CDROM and microfilm records, this > was used from May 1944 through March 1945, which is about half of the 303rds > missions. > What I'm still a bit confused about is that I've been assuming that the > descriptions I've read about how the early wings split up into groups at the IP (like > you described) was probably the same later, just that the Group split up into > Squadrons, that bombed independently. > Ie apparently : > Early in the war: Division--> Wing---> Group (ie the group bombed as a unit) > was pretty much equivalent to: > later in the war: Wing----> Group ---->Squadron (ie Squadron bombed as a unit) > > You flew in both types, so I'm curious whether the behavior of the squadrons at > the IP later in the war was the same as the behavior of the Group at the IP earlier > in the war, with respect to how they separated (?20 sec intervals?), and rejoined > afterwards? > > Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 09:52:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:52:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> <002e01c12cb1$71132c40$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B874803.66435414@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000f01c12d43$526516e0$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. Cheers back to you, sir. I am reminded of George Orwells little treatise in disguise he titled "Animal Farm". There will always be that irrevokable law that dictates that "some people are more equal than others". Back when I was still about shin-kicker size the Kingston trio had a song that went something like this ( can't remember the title ) ' the French hate the Germans, South Africans hate Yugoslavs, the Germans hate the Dutch; and I don't like anybody very much...' Economic trading blocks in Europe and Asia are one thing. A common currency will probably do more good than harm for the EEC over the long haul ( if they make the long haul). What if all the States in the US were separate entities with their own laws, tariffs, and currency? What if the folks up North had to have a passport and travel visa to visit Disney World? I shudder at the very thought. I don't figure we have to lose to much sleep over the UCP(united countries of the planet)ANY TIME SOON. As respects communism; it might have been a good thing for some emerging nations, but in the long run it tries to deny human nature. I used to be a virulent anti-communist, now I just view it as a very black comedy. It will be interesting to see how long the Communist Chinese can hold out against Human Nature, ( the most powerful force on the planet). Best regards. LG. > > When there is a united planet, there will be no more US of A to bail out all > these losers when they get in trouble militarily or economically ... If you > want global communism, go for it ... > WCH > > Lloyd J Grant wrote Let's hope that the concept of a United Planet will some day find fruition > > in fact, more than in Polyanna. Don't hold your breath too long tho. > > LG > > > Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's generation > > > are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by the > > > Germans. > > > > > > Michael Baldock > > > Guildford, England > . One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > > > > > > > >Bill Heller. > > > > > My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 attacks were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the street from her... > > > > >From: "William Heller" > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF and > > > > >others, > > > > >in > > > > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very interesting > > > > >story > > > > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the purpose > > > of > > > > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the Continent > > > after > > > > >the > > > > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace on > > the > > > > >ground, > > > > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus jump > > > > >into > > > > >the > > > > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER the > > > blast > > > > >for > > > > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A City > > > > >block > > > > >was > > > > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Heller _________________________________________________________________ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 10:02:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:02:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: debriefings Message-ID: <001e01c12d44$ae34b380$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: "hoytwma2" Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 3:58 AM Subject: Re: debriefings > Bill Hoyt. > > Bill I will do my best to get hold of a copy of the book you have mentioned. > This is a subject would like to pursue a bit further. There seems to be a > dichotomy of opinion about effacasy of the debriefing sessions and what was > done with the information gathered in them. I welcome any suggestions for > reading material . > > Thank you for tossing this into the pot, Bill. > Best regards, sir, > > Lloyd Grant. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hoytwma2" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 11:19 PM > Subject: debriefings > > > > LG -- Are you familier with the book "Those Who Fall" ?(John Muirhead ) a > > few pages of an encounter with a debriefing officer. PG 119 I believe. > > He also talks about flying decoy missions (301st BG Italy) but said they > > never worked. > > > > Bill Hoyt > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 10:37:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:37:37 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Message-ID: <005e01c12d49$94ccd940$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> Here is an exerpt from an article I found while looking for information on the V2 rocket. More proof that Hitler was perhaps our best ally at times: "Albert Speer considered his support of the V2 program to be one of the biggest mistakes he made during his tenure as Minister of Armaments. The alternative program that Speer, in hindsight, would have backed fully was project ' Wasserfall' (waterfall). This was a 25ft. long antiaircraft missle whose development, in 1942, had paralleled that of the V-2. The Wasserfall rocket could be guided to its' aerial target by a directional beam that was not affected by weather or darkness. The rocket could carry 660 pounds of explosives up to altitudes of 50,000 ft. and was extremely accurate. Speer reasoned (after the fact) that producing several thaousand a month of these smaller , less expensive rockets in 1944, instead of hundreds of V-2 rockets, might have prevented the devastating Allied air strikes on German industry. " German Weapons in WWII.htm I get a cold shudder just thinking about what might have happened if such a weapon had been deployed and used against our bomber formations. Anyone else care to comment on this? Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 16:17:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:17:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Movie "Wings" Message-ID: The movie "Darling Lili" with Julie Andrews had some neat aerial sequences but I don't think you can rent it. One chase scene had the two adversaries flying under a tiny bridge....lotsa good ones still around. Cheers, All....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 16:34:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:34:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Captain (Clark) Gable Message-ID: It's been said that Capt. Gable donated the "plush" seating in the Post Theater at Molesworth. Far better that those hard benches! Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 17:14:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:14:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Billy Mitchell Message-ID: <200108251214.AA210370890@etbyte.net> THANKS,MUCHAS GRACIAS, Good to know. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Fordlauer@aol.com Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:29:13 EDT >Mr. Francisco Quinonez Lopez >, > >I don't think that General Mitchell made congress mad. It was all the old >army cavalry generals who had it in for him. They refused to see the airplane >as an independent offensive weapon. They believed the airplane should exist >solely to support battle field commanders and be under their control. This >attitude and friction of army control didn't end until 1947, when the air >force became its own branch of the military. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 12:19:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:19:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Captain (Clark) Gable References: Message-ID: <00b701c12d57$d3ecca00$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bob Hand. >From the sound of things, inspite of his movie fame, Mr. Gable seems to be the sort of guy that also put his pants on one leg at a time. I have found that to be equally true with Mr. Cronkite. Cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Captain (Clark) Gable > It's been said that Capt. Gable donated the "plush" seating in the Post Theater at Molesworth. Far better that those hard benches! Cheers, Bob Hand > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 17:42:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 09:42:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program References: <005e01c12d49$94ccd940$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001301c12d84$e4752520$348fe0d8@h4k3401> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 2:37 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program > Here is an exerpt from an article I found while looking for information on > the V2 rocket. More proof that Hitler was perhaps our best ally at times: _______________________________________________________________ There are numerous times when Nazi Germany came within a hair's breadth of tipping the scale the other way. - - - - Like the original deployment of the ME-262 as a bomber, another case where Hitler insisted on the wrong course. Dave Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 17:56:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:56:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Message-ID: <200108251256.AA176161036@etbyte.net> Good to know that some one shares what I have also said that hitler at times acted as our allied for stupid desitions he made !!! ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "David Y" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 09:42:11 -0700 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 2:37 AM >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program > > >> Here is an exerpt from an article I found while looking for information on >> the V2 rocket. More proof that Hitler was perhaps our best ally at times: >_______________________________________________________________ > >There are numerous times when Nazi Germany came within a hair's breadth of >tipping the scale the other way. - - - - Like the original deployment of the >ME-262 as a bomber, another case where Hitler insisted on the wrong course. >Dave Young > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 18:25:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:25:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> <002e01c12cb1$71132c40$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B874803.66435414@attglobal.net> <000f01c12d43$526516e0$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3B87DF91.F1714EB1@attglobal.net> L. Grant ... I am reminded that two of America's most violent (and hated) enemies were the UK and Germany. Today we are staunch allies. I am NOT a one-worlder. That is merely a disguise for eventual world communism, and THEN where will the downtrodden and unfortunate turn? Today, still, such can turn to us! But, if these one-worlders have their way there will BE no us! I have lived, as a citizen in many parts of the world. And have been a permanent resident in some of them. They include living in Italy, Germany, The UK, Manila, Philippines. Hong Kong. And, working in many for lengthy periods of time. I firmly believe the US should remain isolationist. We did pretty darn good for the world in being so in the past. We can still enjoy trade and social functions SANS being one without sovereignty. That last is what the world would have us lose; our sovereignty., The UN is the worst culprit. It has already far too much to say over what we, as Americans, do. A bunch of two-bit dictators and potentates from backward nations having too much to say about what WE do. Get the UN out of America and America OUT of the UN! Imagine, a 225 year old nation aiding and helping a bunch of nations of the world who have had thousands of years to grow and nurture, but who ALWAYS have to come to us to bail them out of their military and economic failures. Label me an AMERICAN! Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Bill Heller. > > Cheers back to you, sir. I am reminded of George Orwells little treatise in > disguise he titled "Animal Farm". There will always be that irrevokable law > that dictates that "some people are more equal than others". Back when I > was still about shin-kicker size the Kingston trio had a song that went > something like this ( can't remember the title ) ' the French hate the > Germans, South Africans hate Yugoslavs, the Germans hate the Dutch; and I > don't like anybody very much...' > > Economic trading blocks in Europe and Asia are one thing. A common currency > will probably do more good than harm for the EEC over the long haul ( if > they make the long haul). What if all the States in the US were separate > entities with their own laws, tariffs, and currency? What if the folks up > North had to have a passport and travel visa to visit Disney World? I > shudder at the very thought. I don't figure we have to lose to much sleep > over the UCP(united countries of the planet)ANY TIME SOON. As respects > communism; it might have been a good thing for some emerging nations, but > in the long run it tries to deny human nature. I used to be a virulent > anti-communist, now I just view it as a very black comedy. It will be > interesting to see how long the Communist Chinese can hold out against Human > Nature, ( the most powerful force on the planet). > > Best regards. > LG. > > > > > When there is a united planet, there will be no more US of A to bail out > all > > these losers when they get in trouble militarily or economically ... If > you > > want global communism, go for it ... > > WCH > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote > Let's hope that the concept of a United Planet will some day find fruition > > > in fact, more than in Polyanna. Don't hold your breath too long tho. > > > LG > > > > > Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's > generation > > > > are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by > the > > > > Germans. > > > > > > > > Michael Baldock > > > > Guildford, England > > > . > One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > > > > > > > > > >Bill Heller. > > > > > > > My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 > attacks > were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of > these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the > street from her... > > > > > > >From: "William Heller" > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF > and > > > > > >others, > > > > > >in > > > > > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > > > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very > interesting > > > > > >story > > > > > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the > purpose > > > > of > > > > > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the > Continent > > > > after > > > > > >the > > > > > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace > on > > > the > > > > > >ground, > > > > > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus > jump > > > > > >into > > > > > >the > > > > > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER > the > > > > blast > > > > > >for > > > > > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A > City > > > > > >block > > > > > >was > > > > > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Heller > _________________________________________________________________ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 19:44:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:44:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: <45.b5208a4.28b94c19@aol.com> cheers,bravo,BILL. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 20:02:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:02:28 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: <20010825190229.NCWW18450.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Bill Heller, I can agree with much of what you say about the US. We have been and continue to be a great nation and have proven this fact time and again. However, I question that we can maintain our status as an Island. Until now our shores have been far removed from the devastation of world wars. This luxury no longer exists. The new vehicles of destruction can and most likely will sight us in at some point in time if we choose to go it alone. It may not be of our choosing but today we are influenced by a world economy. Consequently, I think that it is in our best interest to continue as an active player in the game of chess. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 20:16:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:16:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets In-Reply-To: <20010825190229.NCWW18450.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Gentlemen, much as I like to see this discussed, this may not be the place for it. I remember about a month ago this happened, and some people almost dropped off the list. Feelings were stepped on, things said that shouldn't have been... Take it for what it's worth, but I'm sure Gary will agree - if it doesn't have to do with the 303rd or HBombers, it may be better discussed elsewhere. And just to show you the truth of what I speak, how many of you are reaching for your keyboards right now to give me a rebuke......think about it folks. If we go through too many more episodes of this, there won't be a 303rd talk ring. Gordy "tailgunnerson" -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of b.runnels@att.net Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:02 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets Bill Heller, I can agree with much of what you say about the US. We have been and continue to be a great nation and have proven this fact time and again. However, I question that we can maintain our status as an Island. Until now our shores have been far removed from the devastation of world wars. This luxury no longer exists. The new vehicles of destruction can and most likely will sight us in at some point in time if we choose to go it alone. It may not be of our choosing but today we are influenced by a world economy. Consequently, I think that it is in our best interest to continue as an active player in the game of chess. Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 20:50:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:50:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Our Veterans and Your comments... Message-ID: Hi Ford, I really appreciated your comments on our boomer generation's way of looking at the war, learning about it, and how are we going to do it. They were right on the money, and well thought out. It is a bit of an art asking things about death and destruction, from the very people who were there, without glorifying, belittling, or otherwise not making serious enough the words we use. I have had it happen to me, as has Lloyd, and now Colin. We're learning, all of us, and that is why we're here. If we are not sometimes the best students, then that is human frailty and makes us human. If the vets boo-boo in an answer or two, that is also understandable. I don't think too many of them have a teaching certificate, either. We are all learning together, fellas. A good rule told me the other day by a pilot for USAir, over lunch was "Just don't take it personally". Never truer. With respect to all from both generations, teaching and learning alike, Thanks. Gordy. Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 phone 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com "tailgunnerson" From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 21:12:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:12:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <20010825190229.NCWW18450.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3B8806C1.5D9FD627@attglobal.net> Runnels ... Agree! As an active player as a SOVEREIGN Nation NOT diluted by the questionable cultures, mores and idiocies of many third world and backward nations of the world, ALL of whom have at some time or another, had to come to us for aid and assistance. We ARE the world. WCH b.runnels@att.net wrote: > Bill Heller, I can agree with much of what you say about > the US. We have been and continue to be a great nation > and have proven this fact time and again. However, I > question that we can maintain our status as an Island. > Until now our shores have been far removed from the > devastation of world wars. This luxury no longer exists. > The new vehicles of destruction can and most likely > will sight us in at some point in time if we choose to > go it alone. It may not be of our choosing but today we > are influenced by a world economy. Consequently, I think > that it is in our best interest to continue as an active > player in the game of chess. > Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 21:16:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:16:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: Message-ID: <3B88078F.7FBEBC59@attglobal.net> G. Alton ... This is either a forum where we can discuss what we wish, OR, let's have done with it and publish a list of topics or subjects about which we may voice our opinions and concerns. This almost turned me off once before .... This is ALMOST an OpEd page, in effect. People who disagree wityh OpEds in all p;ublications either voice their rebuttals OR, just ignore what has been written or said. I would rather have someone who disagrees with me to discuss it instead of merely saying THAT IS NOT WHAT WE SPEAK ABOUT HERE ... Cheers! Also, Malish. WCH "Gordon L. Alton" wrote: > Gentlemen, much as I like to see this discussed, this may not be the > place for it. I remember about a month ago this happened, and some people > almost dropped off the list. Feelings were stepped on, things said that > shouldn't have been... > Take it for what it's worth, but I'm sure Gary will agree - if it doesn't > have to do with the 303rd or HBombers, it may be better discussed > elsewhere. And just to show you the truth of what I speak, how many of > you are reaching for your keyboards right now to give me a > rebuke......think about it folks. If we go through too many more episodes > of this, there won't be a 303rd talk ring. > Gordy > "tailgunnerson" > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of b.runnels@att.net > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:02 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > Bill Heller, I can agree with much of what you say about > the US. We have been and continue to be a great nation > and have proven this fact time and again. However, I > question that we can maintain our status as an Island. > Until now our shores have been far removed from the > devastation of world wars. This luxury no longer exists. > The new vehicles of destruction can and most likely > will sight us in at some point in time if we choose to > go it alone. It may not be of our choosing but today we > are influenced by a world economy. Consequently, I think > that it is in our best interest to continue as an active > player in the game of chess. > Regards, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 21:18:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:18:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Our Veterans and Your comments... References: Message-ID: <3B88081A.3DCC19E5@attglobal.net> Alton .... Teaching certificates do not necessarily make a good teacher ... I know a lot of lettered people who do not even know where the "Isthmus" is ... AND they're PhDs ... Cheers! WCH "Gordon L. Alton" wrote: > Hi Ford, > I really appreciated your comments on our boomer generation's way of > looking at the war, learning about it, and how are we going to do it. > They were right on the money, and well thought out. It is a bit of an art > asking things about death and destruction, from the very people who were > there, without glorifying, belittling, or otherwise not making serious > enough the words we use. I have had it happen to me, as has Lloyd, and > now Colin. > We're learning, all of us, and that is why we're here. If we are not > sometimes the best students, then that is human frailty and makes us > human. If the vets boo-boo in an answer or two, that is also > understandable. I don't think too many of them have a teaching > certificate, either. We are all learning together, fellas. A good rule > told me the other day by a pilot for USAir, over lunch was "Just don't > take it personally". > Never truer. > With respect to all from both generations, teaching and learning alike, > Thanks. > Gordy. > > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 > phone 250-537-5913 > gordy@saltspring.com > "tailgunnerson" From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 22:49:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:49:23 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS In-Reply-To: <3B88078F.7FBEBC59@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3B87BAF3.11594.B22B2CC@localhost> > This is either a forum where we can discuss what we wish, OR, let's > have done with it and publish a list of topics or subjects about which > we may voice our opinions and concerns. This almost turned me off > once before .... This is ALMOST an OpEd page, in effect. People who > disagree wityh OpEds in all p;ublications either voice their rebuttals > OR, just ignore what has been written or said. Before this gets out of hand again, let me try to make my point once more. If you agree or disagree with me and want to discuss it, please contact me privately at glm@303rdbga.com. PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO ME HERE. 303rd-Talk is indeed a forum, but not an open forum. Like virtually all forums (usually called mailing lists) it has a topic that it must stick to. Otherwise it is of no use to most of the subscribers. Those who join 303rd-Talk want to learn and talk about the 303rd and WWII. That is the *only* reason they joined. They don't give a hoot about my opinion or anyone else's of something unrelated to the topic. Every message sent to the list goes to 160 people. Maybe two or three are interested in something unrelated, but most are not. Every time a topic comes up that is of little interest to most people, I start seeing people leave the list. They don't make a big deal about it, they simply unsubscribe and I see an admin message after they're gone. When you reply to any message here, REMEMBER WHERE IT IS GOING. It's not going only to one person, its going to 160 people. I totally agree about the First Amendment and the right of free speech, but this is not an open forum. If you have something you want to discuss that is unlikely to be of interest to all 160 subscribers, please send your message directly to the person you want to talk with and keep it via private email. The internet is full of mailing lists to join. There are thousands of them about any topic you can imagine - but most of them have a topic and subscribers are supposed to stick pretty close to it. Take a look at this page of lists: http://www.lsoft.com/catalist.html There are thousands of others besides those you see there. As an FYI to you all, Colin unsubscribed himself from the list today. Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 22:16:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:16:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #369 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <41.103520bd.28b96fbb@aol.com> --part1_41.103520bd.28b96fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re 303rd BG(H) formations Prior to May 1944 the standard 303rd BG(H) formation was the 20 or 21 B-17 Box formation. Starting in May 1944 and standard on most flights after D-Day the standard 303rd ( and 1st AD) formation became the 13 B-17 Squadron formation with the Group usually dispatching three squadrons formations as the Group effort for a total of 36-39 aircraft instead of the old 20-21 aircraft using the box formation. The Squadron formation consisted of four three aircraft flights (Lead, High, low and low-low flights) plus a fourth B-17 in the high flight for the "Tail-end Charlie" position. See: http://www.303rdbga.com/formation./html. On maxium efforts the 303rd could dispatch an additional Squadron formation of 12-13 B-17's (For a total of 52 303rd B-17's) as part of a composite group with the 379th & 384th BG's. During the post D-Day period the 303rd had 15-16 assigned B-17 in each of it's four Squadrons Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_41.103520bd.28b96fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re 303rd BG(H) formations
Prior to May 1944 the standard 303rd BG(H) formation was the 20 or 21 B-17
Box formation. Starting in May 1944 and standard on most flights after D-Day
the standard 303rd ( and 1st AD) formation became the 13 B-17 Squadron
formation
with the Group usually dispatching three squadrons formations as the Group
effort for a total of 36-39 aircraft instead of the old 20-21 aircraft using
the box formation.
The Squadron formation consisted of four three aircraft flights (Lead, High,
low and low-low flights) plus a fourth B-17 in the high flight for the
"Tail-end Charlie" position.
See: http://www.303rdbga.com/formation./html. On maxium efforts the 303rd
could dispatch an additional Squadron formation of 12-13 B-17's (For a total
of 52 303rd B-17's) as part of a composite group with the 379th & 384th BG's.
During the post D-Day period the 303rd had 15-16 assigned B-17 in each of
it's four Squadrons
Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_41.103520bd.28b96fbb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 22:16:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:16:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: <6a.129e2223.28b96fbc@aol.com> amen! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 17:38:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:38:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets References: <00ab01c12cd3$acc381a0$28a4fc3e@oemcomputer> <002e01c12cb1$71132c40$2c1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B874803.66435414@attglobal.net> <000f01c12d43$526516e0$761b4e0c@o3n4f8> <3B87DF91.F1714EB1@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002d01c12d84$74d16ee0$a2184e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller. First , I am very glad that Gary will occassionally abide a weekend side trip from the official agenda of our forum, ie. the 303rd BG and War related topics. There are some very intelligent and dedicated people that attend these discussions. What they have to say is important. What you have said here is not some "on the spot" programmed dialectic mouthed by an ill educated synchophant ( ala Rush Limbaugh et al ), but a well thought out and intelligent opinion based your perception of certain realities that have affected your life. We may agree to disagree, but like you would mine, I will defend your right to say what you believe to be the truth to the extent of whatever extreme is called for to do so ( in other words, to the death, if it was called for ). So, in that sense , I could not be an isolationist. I give creedance to some of the points that you make, and am glad of the pause it gives me to think and reevaluate my own opinions and stance, and to consider the courage of my own convictions. I think in a democracy such as ours; as diverse both ethnically and politically as it is, a healthy skepticism is behooving. Mr. Runnels makes a good point in his message related to this topic. As the World becomes ever smaller, there are fewer and fewer fences to sit upon. Where does that leave us and our Country? Well, perhaps god alone knows. And, just maybe, alone cares. I ask the indulgence of Rush Limbaugh fans for references made. I am no ones' "ditto- head", nor ever will be. The greatness of this Country has always been in its' spirit of individualism, the promise of its' ability to adapt, and the personal courage of its' citizens when the chips are down. Gordy Alton has also made a good point, lest we wander from the purpose of our discussions here. I have noticed that comments are generally slow on the weekends. Perhaps Mr. Moncur would allow some digressions such as this if they are confined to weekend talk and kept within acceptable bounds. I would certainly not like to see anyone sign off the forum because the discussion strayed from its original purpose. Presumably, in a democracy there is some latitude given to freedom of speech ( so long as it does not get out of control). A joke. Try to Smile. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Heller" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > L. Grant ... > > I am reminded that two of America's most violent (and hated) enemies were the > UK and Germany. Today we are staunch allies. I am NOT a one-worlder. That is > merely a disguise for eventual world communism, and THEN where will the > downtrodden and unfortunate turn? Today, still, such can turn to us! But, if > these one-worlders have their way there will BE no us! I have lived, as a > citizen in many parts of the world. And have been a permanent resident in some > of them. They include living in Italy, Germany, The UK, Manila, Philippines. > Hong Kong. And, working in many for lengthy periods of time. I firmly believe > the US should remain isolationist. We did pretty darn good for the world in > being so in the past. We can still enjoy trade and social functions SANS being > one without sovereignty. That last is what the world would have us lose; our > sovereignty., The UN is the worst culprit. It has already far too much to say > over what we, as Americans, do. A bunch of two-bit dictators and potentates > from backward nations having too much to say about what WE do. Get the UN out > of America and America OUT of the UN! Imagine, a 225 year old nation aiding and > helping a bunch of nations of the world who have had thousands of years to grow > and nurture, but who ALWAYS have to come to us to bail them out of their > military and economic failures. Label me an AMERICAN! > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > Bill Heller. > > > > Cheers back to you, sir. I am reminded of George Orwells little treatise in > > disguise he titled "Animal Farm". There will always be that irrevokable law > > that dictates that "some people are more equal than others". Back when I > > was still about shin-kicker size the Kingston trio had a song that went > > something like this ( can't remember the title ) ' the French hate the > > Germans, South Africans hate Yugoslavs, the Germans hate the Dutch; and I > > don't like anybody very much...' > > > > Economic trading blocks in Europe and Asia are one thing. A common currency > > will probably do more good than harm for the EEC over the long haul if > > they make the long haul). What if all the States in the US were separate > > entities with their own laws, tariffs, and currency? What if the folks up > > North had to have a passport and travel visa to visit Disney World? I > > shudder at the very thought. I don't figure we have to lose to much sleep > > over the UCP(united countries of the planet)ANY TIME SOON. As respects > > communism; it might have been a good thing for some emerging nations, but > > in the long run it tries to deny human nature. I used to be a virulent > > anti-communist, now I just view it as a very black comedy. It will be > > interesting to see how long the Communist Chinese can hold out against Human > > Nature, ( the most powerful force on the planet). > > > > Best regards. > > LG. > > > > > > > > When there is a united planet, there will be no more US of A to bail out > > all > > > these losers when they get in trouble militarily or economically ... If > > you > > > want global communism, go for it ... > > > WCH > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote > > Let's hope that the concept of a United Planet will some day find fruition > > > > in fact, more than in Polyanna. Don't hold your breath too long tho. > > > > LG > > > > > > > Probably comes as no surprise to note that many of my parent's > > generation > > > > > are not exactly thrilled about a united Europe heavily influenced by > > the > > > > > Germans. > > > > > > > > > > Michael Baldock > > > > > Guildford, England > > > > > . > > One morning they went to her house and it had been destroyed by a V-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bill Heller. > > > > > > > > > My mother was about 16 when the V1 and later more destructive V2 > > attacks > > were going on. She told me that the concussion from the exposion of one of > > these rockets killed an entire family that lived on the other side of the > > street from her... > > > > > > > > >From: "William Heller" > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd G ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We were the Strategic Bomber Command .... I believe the 9th AF > > and > > > > > > >others, > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > tactical work, DID attack certain Flak batteries and other such > > > > > > > > installations. Not certain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as the V2 is concerned .. and Jack Rencher's very > > interesting > > > > > > >story > > > > > > > > about same ... we used to be sent aloft over England for the > > purpose > > > > > of > > > > > > > > tracking and timing ANY contrails we saw rising from the > > Continent > > > > > after > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > famous V2 attacks. We then radioed this info back to someplace > > on > > > > the > > > > > > >ground, > > > > > > > > ostensibly to some "command" area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was once in London when a V2 hit and saw a double decker bus > > jump > > > > > > >into > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > air and come down on its top! I had hit the gutter only AFTER > > the > > > > > blast > > > > > > >for > > > > > > > > there was NO WARNING of such. It just HIT and that was that. A > > City > > > > > > >block > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > about its destruction area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Heller > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 18:00:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:00:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS References: <3B87BAF3.11594.B22B2CC@localhost> Message-ID: <003101c12d87$65890d00$a2184e0c@o3n4f8> Gary worked hard to build the 303rd website, and likely harder to put this together. I count about 25 fairly regular respondants to the forum, and about 10-12 dedicated respondents to the forum. In a recent question I asked if there were any members with experience in S-2 operations. And , I think the question was fairly germaine, if tho , initially not well posed. A few of the dedicated respondents addressed the question courteously and as informatively as possible. Some of the 25 fairly regular respondants also chipped in. At the risk of getting my "walking papers" on this forum, where the heck are the remaining 135 or so subscribers who gladly get angry enough to drop out, but who have never contributed to any topic we have discussed? Aside. I have been chewed out by some dedicated proffessionals, but I sure don't ever remember my face getting quite as red as it did when I read Garys' message. PS. Sorry Colin. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS > > This is either a forum where we can discuss what we wish, OR, let's > > have done with it and publish a list of topics or subjects about which > > we may voice our opinions and concerns. This almost turned me off > > once before .... This is ALMOST an OpEd page, in effect. People who > > disagree wityh OpEds in all p;ublications either voice their rebuttals > > OR, just ignore what has been written or said. > > Before this gets out of hand again, let me try to make my point once > more. If you agree or disagree with me and want to discuss it, > please contact me privately at glm@303rdbga.com. PLEASE DO > NOT REPLY TO ME HERE. > > 303rd-Talk is indeed a forum, but not an open forum. Like virtually > all forums (usually called mailing lists) it has a topic that it must stick > to. Otherwise it is of no use to most of the subscribers. Those who > join 303rd-Talk want to learn and talk about the 303rd and WWII. > That is the *only* reason they joined. They don't give a hoot about > my opinion or anyone else's of something unrelated to the topic. > > Every message sent to the list goes to 160 people. Maybe two or > three are interested in something unrelated, but most are not. > Every time a topic comes up that is of little interest to most people, I > start seeing people leave the list. They don't make a big deal about > it, they simply unsubscribe and I see an admin message after > they're gone. When you reply to any message here, REMEMBER > WHERE IT IS GOING. It's not going only to one person, its going to > 160 people. > > I totally agree about the First Amendment and the right of > free speech, but this is not an open forum. If you have something > you want to discuss that is unlikely to be of interest to all 160 > subscribers, please send your message directly to the person you > want to talk with and keep it via private email. The internet is full of > mailing lists to join. There are thousands of them about any topic > you can imagine - but most of them have a topic and subscribers > are supposed to stick pretty close to it. Take a look at this page of > lists: http://www.lsoft.com/catalist.html There are thousands of > others besides those you see there. > > As an FYI to you all, Colin unsubscribed himself from the list today. > > Thanks, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 18:23:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:23:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #369 - 19 msgs References: <41.103520bd.28b96fbb@aol.com> Message-ID: <005901c12d8a$98df6ac0$a2184e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , sir. L. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #369 - 19 msgs > Re 303rd BG(H) formations > Prior to May 1944 the standard 303rd BG(H) formation was the 20 or 21 B-17 > Box formation. Starting in May 1944 and standard on most flights after D-Day > the standard 303rd ( and 1st AD) formation became the 13 B-17 Squadron > formation > with the Group usually dispatching three squadrons formations as the Group > effort for a total of 36-39 aircraft instead of the old 20-21 aircraft using > the box formation. > The Squadron formation consisted of four three aircraft flights (Lead, High, > low and low-low flights) plus a fourth B-17 in the high flight for the > "Tail-end Charlie" position. > See: http://www.303rdbga.com/formation./html. On maxium efforts the 303rd > could dispatch an additional Squadron formation of 12-13 B-17's (For a total > of 52 303rd B-17's) as part of a composite group with the 379th & 384th BG's. > During the post D-Day period the 303rd had 15-16 assigned B-17 in each of > it's four Squadrons > Harry D. Gobrecht > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 00:05:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:05:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Officers Message-ID: Hello all! I was reading another book last night and in it, the question about Officer competency in the Air Corps came up. The author interviewed a number of veterans and said that without exception, every veteran said EVERY Officer in the AAC was very competent. The author goes on to elaborate that if a bad egg turned up, they were quickly moved out. What was your experience with Officers, ground and air eschelon alike? Did you ever have incompetent Officers and if so, were they quickly moved out? I have learned more from this forum in a year than in the last five. Thanks all who respond to my questions! It is sincerely appreciated! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 00:25:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:25:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel Message-ID: <001401c12dbd$31f20ce0$cded7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C12D9B.A91CC3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the conversations on this list I gather the History Channel has a = bit of a credibility problem. Nevertheless, on Sunday night there is = one hour on the bombing campaign in Europe. Later in the evening there = is something on the Luftwaffe and, judging from the preview I saw, on = their jet technology. I would be interested in any reactions from you = "vets" about either hour. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C12D9B.A91CC3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From the conversations on this list I gather the = History=20 Channel has a bit of a credibility problem. Nevertheless, on = Sunday night=20 there is one hour on the bombing campaign in Europe. Later in the=20 evening there is something on the Luftwaffe and, judging from the = preview=20 I saw, on their jet technology. I would be interested in any = reactions=20 from you "vets" about either hour.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C12D9B.A91CC3E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 00:35:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:35:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS Message-ID: Ain't even goona go there guys! *grin* No sirree! Been there, done that! Cheers! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS >Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:00:06 -0400 > >Gary worked hard to build the 303rd website, and likely harder to put this >together. I count about 25 fairly regular respondants to the forum, and >about 10-12 dedicated respondents to the forum. In a recent question I >asked if there were any members with experience in S-2 operations. And , I >think the question was fairly germaine, if tho , initially not well posed. >A few of the dedicated respondents addressed the question courteously and >as >informatively as possible. Some of the 25 fairly regular respondants also >chipped in. > >At the risk of getting my "walking papers" on this forum, where the heck >are the remaining 135 or so subscribers who gladly get angry enough to drop >out, but who have never contributed to any topic we have discussed? > >Aside. I have been chewed out by some dedicated proffessionals, but I sure >don't ever remember my face getting quite as red as it did when I read >Garys' message. PS. Sorry Colin. > Grant. > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary Moncur" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 5:49 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS > > > > > This is either a forum where we can discuss what we wish, OR, let's > > > have done with it and publish a list of topics or subjects about which > > > we may voice our opinions and concerns. This almost turned me off > > > once before .... This is ALMOST an OpEd page, in effect. People who > > > disagree wityh OpEds in all p;ublications either voice their rebuttals > > > OR, just ignore what has been written or said. > > > > Before this gets out of hand again, let me try to make my point once > > more. If you agree or disagree with me and want to discuss it, > > please contact me privately at glm@303rdbga.com. PLEASE DO > > NOT REPLY TO ME HERE. > > > > 303rd-Talk is indeed a forum, but not an open forum. Like virtually > > all forums (usually called mailing lists) it has a topic that it must >stick > > to. Otherwise it is of no use to most of the subscribers. Those who > > join 303rd-Talk want to learn and talk about the 303rd and WWII. > > That is the *only* reason they joined. They don't give a hoot about > > my opinion or anyone else's of something unrelated to the topic. > > > > Every message sent to the list goes to 160 people. Maybe two or > > three are interested in something unrelated, but most are not. > > Every time a topic comes up that is of little interest to most people, I > > start seeing people leave the list. They don't make a big deal about > > it, they simply unsubscribe and I see an admin message after > > they're gone. When you reply to any message here, REMEMBER > > WHERE IT IS GOING. It's not going only to one person, its going to > > 160 people. > > > > I totally agree about the First Amendment and the right of > > free speech, but this is not an open forum. If you have something > > you want to discuss that is unlikely to be of interest to all 160 > > subscribers, please send your message directly to the person you > > want to talk with and keep it via private email. The internet is full >of > > mailing lists to join. There are thousands of them about any topic > > you can imagine - but most of them have a topic and subscribers > > are supposed to stick pretty close to it. Take a look at this page of > > lists: http://www.lsoft.com/catalist.html There are thousands of > > others besides those you see there. > > > > As an FYI to you all, Colin unsubscribed himself from the list today. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 00:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:39:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel Message-ID: I'm not a vet, but I can tell you the quality of programs on the History Channel is only as good as the producers that make them. And some of the documentaries have made my blood boil, like Suicide Missions - The Ball Turret Gunner. But then they have programs like Battle Line - The P-51, which is probably the best documentary I have seen on the 51. I would encourage you to not believe everything you see on the History Channel and continue to question conclusions drawn by their programs. Then make up your own mind. Kevin >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel >Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:25:12 -0400 > >From the conversations on this list I gather the History Channel has a bit >of a credibility problem. Nevertheless, on Sunday night there is one hour >on the bombing campaign in Europe. Later in the evening there is >something on the Luftwaffe and, judging from the preview I saw, on their >jet technology. I would be interested in any reactions from you "vets" >about either hour. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 02:12:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:12:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel References: Message-ID: <000c01c12dcc$3a37d380$d5e37ad1@markdonn> Even before I saw the exchanges on this group I thought the Suicide Missions -- The Ball Turret Gunner was not very convincing. It was never clear why that position was any more dangerous than any other one in the plane. I also knew about the proclivity of the German fighters to attack from the front or rear so I was even more puzzled. My Uncle was in the ball turret on several missions and never said a thing about it being more dangerous. I did enjoy the P-51 program. I wonder if anyone say the movie Empire of the Sun. Its about a British boy who is held in a Japanese POW camp next to an airfield. He has a fascination with fighter aircraft. Near the end the air field is raided by some P-51s. As the boy watches one go by he screams in joy "P-51 Cadillac of the skies." He got the term from an ad in Life Magazine. Quite a stunning scence and classic Steven Spielberg. He understands children better than anyone making movies today. Mark Donnelly markdonn@rcn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel > I'm not a vet, but I can tell you the quality of programs on the History > Channel is only as good as the producers that make them. And some of the > documentaries have made my blood boil, like Suicide Missions - The Ball > Turret Gunner. But then they have programs like Battle Line - The P-51, > which is probably the best documentary I have seen on the 51. I would > encourage you to not believe everything you see on the History Channel and > continue to question conclusions drawn by their programs. Then make up your > own mind. > Kevin > > > >From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel > >Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:25:12 -0400 > > > >From the conversations on this list I gather the History Channel has a bit > >of a credibility problem. Nevertheless, on Sunday night there is one hour > >on the bombing campaign in Europe. Later in the evening there is > >something on the Luftwaffe and, judging from the preview I saw, on their > >jet technology. I would be interested in any reactions from you "vets" > >about either hour. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 02:15:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:15:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: <54.19d02537.28b9a797@aol.com> --part1_54.19d02537.28b9a797_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, You said a mouthful there. I have always that Slick Willie would like be the supreme ruler of the world. Bob Finley --part1_54.19d02537.28b9a797_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller, You said a mouthful there. I have always that Slick Willie
would like be the supreme ruler of the world.
Bob Finley --part1_54.19d02537.28b9a797_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 02:25:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:25:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Comments Message-ID: Someone said that a lot of members, 135 or so, did not comment. Is making a comment a prerequisite of membership? I think not. Bill D. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 21:23:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:23:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel References: <001401c12dbd$31f20ce0$cded7ad1@markdonn> Message-ID: <000001c12da4$9d8af2a0$5a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Abigail, The History Channel does indeed have some faults regarding accuracy in some respects. Never-the-less, it is a valuable adjunct to the preservation of all this information we want to remember, cherish , and carry forth. Forums like this one exist to help set the record straight when the history on the shelf differs from the reality of what actually happened. Watching the History Channel programs has inspired me many times to ask a question here. We are very lucky to have some men here who were actually THERE to help keep the real history from becoming too fictionalized. Those of us from a later generation should always remember that many of the veterans here are in their late seventies and early eighties. They have spent half their lives, or more, trying to forget what they went through during that War. It is by the grace of their personal courage and caring that those of them that are still able contribute (as best they can) their personal recollections of that era in history, AND are willing to do so. We should be more than grateful to them; we should be considerate of their feelings. They are not an archive, nor a dictionary, and least of all an encyclopedia; they are human beings. We owe them alot that we can never repay. I for one, hope that you will ask more questions, and participate here often. Remember, the only foolish question is one that you don't ask, and there is no question that does not have an answer if you are willing to search for it. WELCOME aboard, Abigail. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] The History Channel >From the conversations on this list I gather the History Channel has a bit of a credibility problem. Nevertheless, on Sunday night there is one hour on the bombing campaign in Europe. Later in the evening there is something on the Luftwaffe and, judging from the preview I saw, on their jet technology. I would be interested in any reactions from you "vets" about either hour. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 25 21:34:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:34:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bail out bell. Message-ID: <001001c12da5$60888ce0$5a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> One Hundred and Fifty-Seven good people can't be wrong. Cheers. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 03:40:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:40:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Message-ID: --part1_d8.b104f0d.28b9bb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, The V1 was not very accurate. The V2 weapon may have been somewhat more accurate. Weapons such as these have little or no military value as there is no real assurance where they will ultimately land. If the Germans had been able to maintain their manned bombing offensive it probably would have been more beneficial to their war effort. Unfortunately for the Germans, they were never able to gain control of the skies over England and the decision was made to attack the Soviet Union. This is what happens when the sole military experience of a commander-in-chief is serving as a corporal several decades in the past. The Allies were very fortunate that more cunning and determined leadership did not emerge in Nazi Germany. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_d8.b104f0d.28b9bb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,
      The V1 was not very accurate. The V2 weapon may have been somewhat
more accurate. Weapons such as these have little or no military value as
there is no real assurance where they will ultimately land. If the Germans
had been able to maintain their manned bombing offensive it probably would
have been more beneficial to their war effort. Unfortunately for the
Germans, they were never able to gain control of the skies over England and
the decision was made to attack the Soviet Union.
      This is what happens when the sole military experience of a
commander-in-chief is serving as a corporal several decades in the past. The
Allies were very fortunate that more cunning and determined leadership did
not emerge in Nazi Germany.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_d8.b104f0d.28b9bb9a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 06:00:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:00:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Sperry Bombsight Message-ID: <000c01c12dec$04db57a0$1ba0e0d8@h4k3401> Thanks, Ed Lamme, for answering my question about the Sperry Precision Bombsight. I guess I just assumed that the Sperry sight was standard equipment on B-24s based on one particular book called "Target Ploesti" (sub titled "View >From A Bombsight"). The author, Leroy W. Newby, was a bombardier in a 15th AAF B-24 and in the book he gives a good description of the operation of the sight. You would probably enjoy it, it being sort of "down your alley". Anyway, since his plane was equipped with the Sperry, I assumed that they all were. I guess I needn't repeat the old saying about THAT error. After I posted the question I looked on the Internet and found that the Sperry wasn't even manufactured after 1943. Look at this site for a picture of it: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/s1.htm Thanks again - - - Dave Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 06:36:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:36:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #369 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <111.4733c0b.28b9e4fb@aol.com> If you are mixed up about formations. Save Harry's letter. It is right on exactly Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 07:13:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:13:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] V-2 fuel Message-ID: Hello to all - My apology if the V2 fuel question has been covered, but if it has here is a re-cap. The V2 used liquid oxygen and ethyl alcohol burned in a combustion chamber as propellant fuels. The fuels were delivered by turbine-driven pumps using pressurized hydrogen peroxide and sodium permanganate from separate tanks. The fuel would last approximately 70 seconds in which time the rocket could reach over 60 miles high and speeds up to 3000 mph. It was the ME163 Komet rocket interceptor in which the volatile fuels were used - a minute droplet of each when combined would cause a violent explosion. These fuels were a solution primarily of hydrogen peroxide, known as T-stoff, and hydrazine hydrate in methanol (C-stoff) as catalyst. I understand this aircraft had nice flying characteristics though was a real handful to take off and land. So far as re-fueling, crews had to be VERY careful to keep the fuels separated. Did the 303rd ever encounter any of these "bumblebees"? Best regards, Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 07:15:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:15:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: I have not got into this as I am not smart enough but I am going to tell you what I think. Laws are made to protect us from each other. Most every law takes away some freedom from someone. The more people we have the more laws we need. We cannot continue to double our population every 42+ years and keep much freedom. Before you chew me out Think. What can you legally do right now without getting a license, approval, or permission from some non elected Governmental board, bureaucrat or commission? Get married? Start a business? Remodel your house? Drive a car? Drive without a seat belt? spank Your child? Put up a fence? smoke? There are a few things left if you search a bit but now we are beginning to protect us from our selves. There is some good in all these laws but Where are we going to be in 82 more years When our grandchildren are old like we are now/? Gary, Don't get after me A. B17 had 4 engines and was a tail dragger. Keep the peace. Keep the faith, Keep the forum. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 07:49:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:49:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Officers Message-ID: <66.1383d594.28b9f60e@aol.com> Kevin, My opinion. Most of the officers I knew were competent, but like all of us some were better than others. I can site a few bad apples. I will tell you about one General. I have chosen to forget his name. He was leading the mission. Instead of letting his copilot make the flying decision like most of the smart generals in his position did he took over. Our position in the formation was lead of the high 3 plane element so we were just a few feet from him. We were supposed to indicate 150 MPH. He was indicating 170. About half way to the IP Someone in the rear part of the line of bombers came on the radio and said in the clear. General we are having a hard time keeping up back here. Can you do anything about it?.(You can't tell a General, Slow down you dumb SOB.) The general replied "Hell yes I could do lots about it" BUT he continued on at 170 indicated. Our string of bombers instead of being about 60 or 70 miles long as normal stretched out to be well over 100 miles long. This thinned out our fighter protection patrolling such a long line of bombers, We had very heavy losses from German fighters on that mission. He probably received a DFC for leading the mission. I think he should have been court marshaled and shot. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 09:30:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:30:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Officers References: <66.1383d594.28b9f60e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B88B392.FF7A75E8@attglobal.net> Jack ... Well said! Over and OUT! Cheers! Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, My opinion. Most of the officers I knew were competent, but like all > of us some were better than others. I can site a few bad apples. I will tell > you about one General. I have chosen to forget his name. He was leading the > mission. Instead of letting his copilot make the flying decision like most of > the smart generals in his position did he took over. Our position in the > formation was lead of the high 3 plane element so we were just a few feet > from him. We were supposed to indicate 150 MPH. He was indicating 170. About > half way to the IP Someone in the rear part of the line of bombers came on > the radio and said in the clear. General we are having a hard time keeping up > back here. Can you do anything about it?.(You can't tell a General, Slow down > you dumb SOB.) The general replied "Hell yes I could do lots about it" BUT he > continued on at 170 indicated. Our string of bombers instead of being about > 60 or 70 miles long as normal stretched out to be well over 100 miles long. > This thinned out our fighter protection patrolling such a long line of > bombers, We had very heavy losses from German fighters on that mission. He > probably received a DFC for leading the mission. I think he should have been > court marshaled and shot. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 14:18:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:18:08 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] V-2 fuel Message-ID: Thanks Rich . I thought the V2 I saw went to 60 Miles & 3000 MPH. Bless you. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 15:05:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Michael Baldock) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:05:18 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wartime Attitudes In England (Was Rations) Message-ID: <00aa01c12e38$40809760$10a5fc3e@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C12E40.84BDCB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A member of this talk-group recently got in touch to ask the following = question: "I enjoyed your mother's narrative of being an evacuee. She didn't = speak much of the family she was "assigned" to or what happened to her = family and if they got back together after the war. Do you know what = was the attitude of the families they were assigned to---were they glad = to be of help or feel like it was an invasion on their lives?" My mother's reply is as follows: __________________________ The attitude of the ' families ' was as various as there are people . The ' older couples ' whose own children had volunteered ,and left home = ,to go into the Services made their evacuees welcome and part of the = family . Many of these remained in touch and exchanged visits for many = years after the end of the war . =20 Other people wanted to help and did all they could to to minimize the = stress . In some circumstances the younger women where given a choice of doing = some sort of ' war work ' or having an evacuee . Some saw their evacuee as a source of extra income .They were paid by = the ' Government ' and in most cases this was augmented by the parents . Others simply wanted a ' girl ' to do the housework . Then there were those who took the view that " One should be grateful to = be given a Home " Whatever the attitude they all did their best according to their own = standards . The individual children were - of course - the other half of the = equation . It was impossible to match ' child to family ' so there was = many a miss - match . The High School started with over 200 pupils but = by the end of the first year had less than 100 . Many parents making = their own arrangements as soon as they were able . Those of us left ' = coped ' in our own individual way . Personally , when things got too much , I would climb through a broken = window of a derelict house in the town - hide in the corner - and have a = ' good cry ' As an adult , although I have great sympathy for that child -- who was = me -- in comparison with the lives of those who lost parents and = relatives and those from other countries with different relgious beliefs = , I had little cause for complaint . But ---- this was not known by the = ' child ' All the family survived the war but we did not get back together in the = accepted sense . My brother did his ' National Sercice ' in the Royal = Signals and on ' demob ' joined the P.O Telecommunications branch , = eventually going to their training division in Staffordshire as an = Instructor . I rarely see him and find we have little in common . I started my Nursing training in Norwich and at that time we had to ' = live-in ' the nurses home and the sparse off-duty times did not allow = for many visits home . On my visits I was not the ' child ' my parents = remembered , having formed differing views and outlook . I felt like a = visitor with little point of contact . One last point ---- the ' Americans ' over here were not much liked by = various sections of the public . Understandable to a point --comparing = the life - style of the 'American G.I ' to that of our own boys . Not to = mention ---- money in pockets and a plentiful supply of chocolate and = Nylons ---- much liked by the young ladies ! So if your Dad was aware of this ' insular English attitude -- my = apologies to him , if that is no longer possible , maybe you will accept = them on his behalf . Sincerely Jean.M.Baldock ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C12E40.84BDCB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A member of this talk-group recently = got in touch=20 to ask the following question:

"I enjoyed your mother's narrative of being an evacuee. She = didn't=20 speak much of the family she was "assigned" to or what happened to = her=20 family and if they got back together after the war. Do you know = what was=20 the attitude of the families they were assigned to---were they glad to = be of=20 help or feel like it was an invasion on their lives?"

My mother's reply is as follows:

__________________________

The attitude of the ' families ' was as = various as=20 there are people .

The ' older couples ' whose own = children had=20 volunteered ,and left home ,to go into the Services made their evacuees = welcome=20 and part of the family . Many of these remained in touch and exchanged = visits=20 for many years after the end of the war .

Other people wanted to help and did all = they could=20 to to minimize the stress .

In some circumstances the younger women = where given=20 a choice of doing some sort of ' war work ' or having an evacuee = .

Some saw their evacuee as a source of = extra income=20 .They were paid by the ' Government ' and in most cases this was = augmented by=20 the parents .

Others simply wanted a ' girl ' to do = the housework=20 .

Then there were those who took the view = that " One=20 should be grateful to be given a Home "

Whatever the attitude they all did = their best=20 according to their own standards .

The individual children were - of = course - the=20 other half of the equation . It was impossible to match ' child to = family ' so=20 there was many a miss - match . The High School started with over 200 = pupils but=20 by the end of the first year had less than 100 . Many parents making = their own=20 arrangements as soon as they were able . Those of us left ' coped = ' in our=20 own individual way .

Personally , when things got too much , = I would=20 climb through a broken window of a derelict house in the town - hide in = the=20 corner - and have a ' good cry '

As an adult , although I have = great sympathy=20 for that child -- who was me -- in comparison with the lives of those = who lost=20 parents and relatives and those from other countries with different = relgious=20 beliefs , I had little cause for complaint . But ---- this was not known = by the=20 ' child '

All the family survived the war but we = did not get=20 back together in the accepted sense . My brother did his ' National = Sercice ' in=20 the Royal Signals and on ' demob ' joined the P.O Telecommunications = branch ,=20 eventually going to their training division in Staffordshire as an = Instructor .=20 I rarely see him and find we have little in common .

I started my Nursing training in = Norwich and at=20 that time we had to ' live-in ' the nurses home and the sparse off-duty = times=20 did not allow for many visits home . On my visits I was not the ' child = ' my=20 parents remembered , having formed differing views and outlook . I felt = like a=20 visitor with little point of contact .

One last point ---- the ' Americans ' = over here=20 were not much liked by various sections of the public . Understandable = to a=20 point --comparing the life - style of the 'American G.I ' to that of our = own=20 boys . Not to mention ---- money in pockets and a plentiful supply of = chocolate=20 and Nylons ---- much liked by the young ladies !

So if your Dad was aware of this ' = insular English=20 attitude -- my apologies to him , if that is no longer possible , maybe = you will=20 accept them on his behalf .

Sincerely

Jean.M.Baldock

------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C12E40.84BDCB20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 16:27:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:27:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Captain (Clark) Gable Message-ID: <12.117b789f.28ba6f5b@aol.com> Rainy morning here in Johnson City. Son Dave passed through on the way from Memphis with galfriend to Conn. They come, they go. Hope this is a good week for you. Best and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand rain From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 17:58:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:58:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ball Turret Gunners Message-ID: <149.81b023.28ba849f@aol.com> I'm toying with possibilities here... First off, there will always be book writers and media producers who "rewrite" facts in order to support their own agendas and views, or those of a popular movement. At the risk of reigniting the Civil War, the decedents of the "Southern Cause" feel that this very thing has been done to that history. Same goes with the American Indians. Those subjects have no place being discussed on the 303rd BG forum, I am merely using them as an example. As for the Ball Turret Gunners documentary, I do not believe that there were any evil intentions with that one. I think that anyone looking at a parked B-17 (other than AAF veterans) would assume that the ball was the most dangerous place. It is all visual- cramped with no freedom of movement, in a frail glass ball. Our subconscious tells us that clear glass is weaker than .040 aluminum. Also, once the producers chose to do a show on the ball turret, they then had to "build the subject up" as much as possible. That goes with any show or subject and is not necessarily wrong. I think that had the show been about any of the other positions the same "building up" would have occurred. Suffice it to say that we all here know that no position was safe from bullets. Just thinking.......................................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 18:15:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:15:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Subject Matter Message-ID: I offer this: I would hate to see any subject off limits for discussion. The present day world and all of its people were affected by WW 2 in one way or another. We are products of that war. Therefore, everything is at least somewhat related to the war. That said, I think we are all capable of using discretion in our writing. Information and opinions are valuable. Friendly debate is healthy. Insults, slander, etc., have no place. Yes we should focus on the 303rd BG, AAF, and the war. I personally also enjoy the "remotely related" topics. How unfortunate it would be if lets say the subject of sex were not allowed to be discussed on the 303rd BG forum. And one day a 303rd BG veteran decides that he wants to let us know about the "fine time" he had with all three of the Andrew Sisters in the back of a B-17 one night. Because of a rule, we would never learn of a historical event. Just a stab at a humorous example. Take care all................................Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 19:34:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:34:42 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos References: <20010825190605.4AF575362E@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3B894142.9342CAA2@qwest.net> Hi Lloyd and all- Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a handful of men and planes in England. Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel II. Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is off the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a ground crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been very generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs on the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. Hope this helps, Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 19:27:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:27:34 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Subject Matter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010826082734.008ec440@ilhawaii.net> Ford. Everything may be somewhat related to the war, but not necessarily to the 303rd Bomb Group. I would not like to see limits on subjects either, but something like present day politics is wandering pretty far afield, and unnecessarily offends a lot of people, especially when the stated subject of the posting has nothing to do with the content. I make heavy use of my delete key, but I hate having to read through a lot of crap before I know it needs deleting, especially when I know the author has had a lot of eperiences I would like to hear about. Jim Walling At 01:15 PM 8/26/01 EDT, you wrote: >I offer this: I would hate to see any subject off limits for discussion. >The present day world and all of its people were affected by WW 2 in one way >or another. We are products of that war. Therefore, everything is at least >somewhat related to the war. That said, I think we are all capable of using >discretion in our writing. Information and opinions are valuable. Friendly >debate is healthy. Insults, slander, etc., have no place. Yes we should focus >on the 303rd BG, AAF, and the war. I personally also enjoy the "remotely >related" topics. How unfortunate it would be if lets say the subject of sex >were not allowed to be discussed on the 303rd BG forum. And one day a 303rd >BG veteran decides that he wants to let us know about the "fine time" he had >with all three of the Andrew Sisters in the back of a B-17 one night. Because >of a rule, we would never learn of a historical event. Just a stab at a >humorous example. Take care all................................Ford J. Lauer >III > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 26 20:28:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:28:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle In-Reply-To: <3B894142.9342CAA2@qwest.net> Message-ID: Hi Mike and all, You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways of telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't mention the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th AF could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. I really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing short of extraordinary. One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because of the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had the best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other fellows shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of mumbled a "thank you". The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a spic and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan at that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds tours. George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you want to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have something easy to send you over the net. Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. Gordy. "tailgunnerson" gordy@saltspring.com -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos Hi Lloyd and all- Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a handful of men and planes in England. Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel II. Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is off the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a ground crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been very generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs on the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. Hope this helps, Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 08:53:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:53:40 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clarke Gable s baseball bat Message-ID: Not sure if this would be of any interest.My wife is an US Army intelligence annalist stationed at RAF Molsworth, And we often visit several of the local pubs in the area. Many of them have old photos and other interesting memorabilia. One of these "The Snooty Fox" has a glass framed display case with Clark Gables baseball bat hanging on the wall near the bar with a picture of him, and a short summary of his service with the 303rd. If any one is interested i will try to get photos of this and anything else that might be of interest. I may also be able to post arial photos of the bases as they were during the war, and as they are now. I enjoy reading the letters that you guys post, and talking to the local britts who remember what you guys did here. Some of them have some have fond memories of (Those Bloody Yanks) also, if any one has any information, a Canadian aircraft crashed near an old church just out side of old weston. Three of the crew are buried in the church cemetery. I was told that they went down shortly after take off from molsworth. The date on their tomb stone's is 26 March 1942. did the brits and canadians share molsworth with the 303rd or did they land to refuel? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 09:08:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:08:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clarke Gable s baseball bat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jay, If your date is correct, I would think that Molesworth at the time of this accident was not being shared with any Americans. The 303rd was not there yet, that early in '42. I would be interested in more info on the crash, especially as I am Canadian. My father was American and was with the 91st BG, at Bassingbourn. They went there in late '42. Dad arrived in the summer of '43. I don't have access right now to the 303rd info, but I think they arrived in England somewhere near the same time period. Where are you in England? I am coming over there in October and might be interested in visiting the site. We could do this off list, if you think the details may not be pertinent for the talk ring. Thanks, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 phone 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com "tailgunnerson" -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jay Haskins Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:54 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clarke Gable s baseball bat Not sure if this would be of any interest.My wife is an US Army intelligence annalist stationed at RAF Molsworth, And we often visit several of the local pubs in the area. Many of them have old photos and other interesting memorabilia. One of these "The Snooty Fox" has a glass framed display case with Clark Gables baseball bat hanging on the wall near the bar with a picture of him, and a short summary of his service with the 303rd. If any one is interested i will try to get photos of this and anything else that might be of interest. I may also be able to post arial photos of the bases as they were during the war, and as they are now. I enjoy reading the letters that you guys post, and talking to the local britts who remember what you guys did here. Some of them have some have fond memories of (Those Bloody Yanks) also, if any one has any information, a Canadian aircraft crashed near an old church just out side of old weston. Three of the crew are buried in the church cemetery. I was told that they went down shortly after take off from molsworth. The date on their tomb stone's is 26 March 1942. did the brits and canadians share molsworth with the 303rd or did they land to refuel? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 10:21:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:21:38 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Canadian Air Force Message-ID: hi As i say, my wife is US Army stationed at RAF Molsworth. we live about a mile from the base, and the church is about another two miles down the road. there are two accounts about the crash, one has it that the plane struck the church steaple, and the other is that the plane went down in a field near the church shortly after take off. From what i was told all six crew were killed in the crash. three were buried at the church, and the other three were sent back to Canada. The three that were buried here are, well ill type it as the head stone reads, R.92079 SERGEANT R.69761 FLIGHT SERGEANT R.C.DOBIE D.C.LINDSEY PILOT WIRELESS OPERATOR/AIR GUNNER ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE 26TH MARCH 1942 AGE 23 26TH MARCH 1942 AGE 20 R.67561 SERGEANT N.G.W.BOYCE AIR OBSERVER ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE 26TH MARCH 1942 I would be glad to hear from you when you come over. if you like you can call me when you get here, 01832-710-180 . would be happy to show you the church and grave site. i also have pictures of the graves and will try to post them if you like _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 10:43:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay Haskins) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:43:48 +0000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Canadian Air Force Message-ID: Gordy, i was digging through my mountain of photo's and ran across a fourth member of that crew buried here. R.54187 FLIGHT SERGEANT R.J.O'LEARY WIRELESS OPERATOR/AIR GUNNER ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE 26TH MARCH 1942 AGE 20 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 15:22:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:22:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Message-ID: Lloyd noted below that the Wasserfall contained 660 lbs. Of explosives. In a normal tight flying formation is it conceivable that one of these could knock down or damage several planes? If the answer is yes, then formation flying would not be a good thing. I wonder what tactical changes this would have brought about for us? Any thoughts? Dave Tooley -----Original Message----- From: Lloyd J Grant [SMTP:palidin@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 4:38 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Here is an exerpt from an article I found while looking for information on the V2 rocket. More proof that Hitler was perhaps our best ally at times: "Albert Speer considered his support of the V2 program to be one of the biggest mistakes he made during his tenure as Minister of Armaments. The alternative program that Speer, in hindsight, would have backed fully was project ' Wasserfall' (waterfall). This was a 25ft. long antiaircraft missle whose development, in 1942, had paralleled that of the V-2. The Wasserfall rocket could be guided to its' aerial target by a directional beam that was not affected by weather or darkness. The rocket could carry 660 pounds of explosives up to altitudes of 50,000 ft. and was extremely accurate. Speer reasoned (after the fact) that producing several thaousand a month of these smaller , less expensive rockets in 1944, instead of hundreds of V-2 rockets, might have prevented the devastating Allied air strikes on German industry. " German Weapons in WWII.htm I get a cold shudder just thinking about what might have happened if such a weapon had been deployed and used against our bomber formations. Anyone else care to comment on this? Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 15:57:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:57:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ball Turret Gunners Message-ID: Ford: I am going to disagree with your comments about producers "building up" their shows and it being OK. I about came out of my chair when the producers of Suicide Missions The BTG said that if the turret got jammed, there was no other way out, just had to take it and be crushed on landing. Boloney! I am sick and tired of shows on the History Channel rewriting history to make money. The History of that era is more facinating, more real and does not need the embellishment of modern day producers that want to sell their videos. I am a great fan of the History Channel, in fact, that's about all I watch. But "glory shows" like Suicide Missions give the average Joe the totally wrong idea about what the air war was like. Sort of like the remake of The Memphis Belle. Sorry Ford to disagree, but it is a friendly disagreement. * smile * Kevin >From: Fordlauer@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ball Turret Gunners >Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:58:07 EDT > >I'm toying with possibilities here... First off, there will always be >book writers and media producers who "rewrite" facts in order to support >their own agendas and views, or those of a popular movement. At the risk of >reigniting the Civil War, the decedents of the "Southern Cause" feel that >this very thing has been done to that history. Same goes with the American >Indians. Those subjects have no place being discussed on the 303rd BG >forum, >I am merely using them as an example. As for the Ball Turret Gunners >documentary, I do not believe that there were any evil intentions with that >one. I think that anyone looking at a parked B-17 (other than AAF veterans) >would assume that the ball was the most dangerous place. It is all visual- >cramped with no freedom of movement, in a frail glass ball. Our >subconscious >tells us that clear glass is weaker than .040 aluminum. Also, once the >producers chose to do a show on the ball turret, they then had to "build >the >subject up" as much as possible. That goes with any show or subject and is >not necessarily wrong. I think that had the show been about any of the >other >positions the same "building up" would have occurred. Suffice it to say >that >we all here know that no position was safe from bullets. Just >thinking.......................................Ford J. Lauer III > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 15:40:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:40:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS Message-ID: Lloyd, As one of the "Silent Majority" that you mentioned below, maybe I can answer your question about what are we doing. Well for the most part we are learning. I certainly do not have the knowledge that some of you possess. That's why I am here, to learn from you. I ask an occasional question when I have one, but I rarely answer to the list because I don't have the knowledge. As time goes by and I learn more and feel comfortable doing so, I will take a more active part. Also, for me personally, I am work and I feel an obligation to be working. I enjoy this list a great deal and the folks involved. But I think that you will find with any list there are more folks who listen in than take part. That just seems to be the nature of the beast. Take care, Dave Tooley -----Original Message----- From: Lloyd J Grant [SMTP:palidin@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS Gary worked hard to build the 303rd website, and likely harder to put this together. I count about 25 fairly regular respondants to the forum, and about 10-12 dedicated respondents to the forum. In a recent question I asked if there were any members with experience in S-2 operations. And , I think the question was fairly germaine, if tho , initially not well posed. A few of the dedicated respondents addressed the question courteously and as informatively as possible. Some of the 25 fairly regular respondants also chipped in. At the risk of getting my "walking papers" on this forum, where the heck are the remaining 135 or so subscribers who gladly get angry enough to drop out, but who have never contributed to any topic we have discussed? Aside. I have been chewed out by some dedicated proffessionals, but I sure don't ever remember my face getting quite as red as it did when I read Garys' message. PS. Sorry Colin. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS > > This is either a forum where we can discuss what we wish, OR, let's > > have done with it and publish a list of topics or subjects about which > > we may voice our opinions and concerns. This almost turned me off > > once before .... This is ALMOST an OpEd page, in effect. People who > > disagree wityh OpEds in all p;ublications either voice their rebuttals > > OR, just ignore what has been written or said. > > Before this gets out of hand again, let me try to make my point once > more. If you agree or disagree with me and want to discuss it, > please contact me privately at glm@303rdbga.com. PLEASE DO > NOT REPLY TO ME HERE. > > 303rd-Talk is indeed a forum, but not an open forum. Like virtually > all forums (usually called mailing lists) it has a topic that it must stick > to. Otherwise it is of no use to most of the subscribers. Those who > join 303rd-Talk want to learn and talk about the 303rd and WWII. > That is the *only* reason they joined. They don't give a hoot about > my opinion or anyone else's of something unrelated to the topic. > > Every message sent to the list goes to 160 people. Maybe two or > three are interested in something unrelated, but most are not. > Every time a topic comes up that is of little interest to most people, I > start seeing people leave the list. They don't make a big deal about > it, they simply unsubscribe and I see an admin message after > they're gone. When you reply to any message here, REMEMBER > WHERE IT IS GOING. It's not going only to one person, its going to > 160 people. > > I totally agree about the First Amendment and the right of > free speech, but this is not an open forum. If you have something > you want to discuss that is unlikely to be of interest to all 160 > subscribers, please send your message directly to the person you > want to talk with and keep it via private email. The internet is full of > mailing lists to join. There are thousands of them about any topic > you can imagine - but most of them have a topic and subscribers > are supposed to stick pretty close to it. Take a look at this page of > lists: http://www.lsoft.com/catalist.html There are thousands of > others besides those you see there. > > As an FYI to you all, Colin unsubscribed himself from the list today. > > Thanks, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 18:05:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:05:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle References: Message-ID: <000501c12f1a$75a83e60$20f833cf@richards> Hi Gordon and all: This is Spider Smith I did my Bomber tour at Moulsworth and completed the last 10 missions of my P51 tour at Bassingbourn . My wife and I visited there in 1995 and I got the chance to see the Tower Museum where I explained some pictures they had of our unit The 1st Scouting Force . We lived in buildings outside the base kind of apartment buildings. We also had a Martin B26 which we used for Target towing and a Mosquito we used to drop window (Chaff) ahead of the lead Bomb group so they would be covered. See the Scouting force Web Page at www.pyker.dircon.co.uk enjoy Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > Hi Mike and all, > You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. > Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable > trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways of > telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't mention > the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the > 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th AF > could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. I > really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of > info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of > the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the > closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, > and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent > veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing short > of extraordinary. > > One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because of > the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had the > best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was > completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, > parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country > Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken > with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, > Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King > and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of > the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 > photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the > ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an > article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other fellows > shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so > tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of > mumbled a "thank you". > The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a spic > and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort > overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) > helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan at > that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds > tours. > George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you want > to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I > can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and > talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has > been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have > something easy to send you over the net. > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. > Gordy. > "tailgunnerson" > gordy@saltspring.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos > > > Hi Lloyd and all- > > Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's > remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's > because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a > handful of men and planes in England. > > Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis > Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd > was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). > And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I > recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he > intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong > first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It > seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal > attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he > saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to > replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something > to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you > guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an > observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel > II. > > Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his > experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and > is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. > I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe > he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely > reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel > was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew > over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is off > the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a ground > crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) > > I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, > it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge > collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been very > generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a > bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs on > the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. > > Hope this helps, > > Mike McClanahan > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 19:31:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:31:04 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle In-Reply-To: <000501c12f1a$75a83e60$20f833cf@richards> Message-ID: Interesting stuff, Spider. I've seen those pictures at Bassingbourn, when I visited there in '99. Joe Harlick also showed me some. I remember in some of them the planes were covered in snow, during the cold winter of '44-45. Were you there then? I'd sure like to hear more about this, if you'd care to share. I'll check out the site. Thanks, Gordy. "tailgunnerson" ____________________________ -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Dick Smith Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:05 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle Hi Gordon and all: This is Spider Smith I did my Bomber tour at Moulsworth and completed the last 10 missions of my P51 tour at Bassingbourn . My wife and I visited there in 1995 and I got the chance to see the Tower Museum where I explained some pictures they had of our unit The 1st Scouting Force . We lived in buildings outside the base kind of apartment buildings. We also had a Martin B26 which we used for Target towing and a Mosquito we used to drop window (Chaff) ahead of the lead Bomb group so they would be covered. See the Scouting force Web Page at www.pyker.dircon.co.uk enjoy Spider Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > Hi Mike and all, > You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. > Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable > trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways of > telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't mention > the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the > 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th AF > could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. I > really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of > info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of > the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the > closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, > and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent > veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing short > of extraordinary. > > One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because of > the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had the > best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was > completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, > parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country > Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken > with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, > Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King > and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of > the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 > photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the > ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an > article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other fellows > shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so > tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of > mumbled a "thank you". > The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a spic > and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort > overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) > helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan at > that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds > tours. > George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you want > to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I > can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and > talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has > been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have > something easy to send you over the net. > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. > Gordy. > "tailgunnerson" > gordy@saltspring.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos > > > Hi Lloyd and all- > > Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's > remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's > because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a > handful of men and planes in England. > > Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis > Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd > was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). > And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I > recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he > intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong > first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It > seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal > attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he > saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to > replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something > to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you > guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an > observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel > II. > > Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his > experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and > is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. > I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe > he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely > reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel > was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew > over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is off > the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a ground > crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) > > I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, > it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge > collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been very > generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a > bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs on > the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. > > Hope this helps, > > Mike McClanahan > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 20:35:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:35:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle Message-ID: I've been to Bassingbourn three times now and am desperately trying to go with the 91st in October. Last time I had the pure pleasure of touring Bassingbourn in Steve Penas 1943 Willys JEEP. I had goose bumps on goose bumps! Kevin >From: "Dick Smith" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:05:21 -0700 > >Hi Gordon and all: > This is Spider Smith I did my Bomber tour at Moulsworth and completed the >last 10 missions of my P51 tour at Bassingbourn . My wife and I visited >there in 1995 and I got the chance to see the Tower Museum where I >explained >some pictures they had of our unit The 1st Scouting Force . We lived in >buildings outside the base kind of apartment buildings. >We also had a Martin B26 which we used for Target towing and a Mosquito we >used to drop window (Chaff) ahead of the lead Bomb group so they would be >covered. > See the Scouting force Web Page at >www.pyker.dircon.co.uk enjoy > Spider Smith >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon L. Alton" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:28 PM >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > > > > Hi Mike and all, > > You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. > > Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable > > trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways >of > > telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't >mention > > the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the > > 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th AF > > could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. >I > > really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of > > info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of > > the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the > > closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, > > and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent > > veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing >short > > of extraordinary. > > > > One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because of > > the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had >the > > best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was > > completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, > > parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country > > Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken > > with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, > > Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King > > and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of > > the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 > > photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the > > ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an > > article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other >fellows > > shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so > > tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of > > mumbled a "thank you". > > The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a spic > > and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort > > overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) > > helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan at > > that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds > > tours. > > George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you want > > to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I > > can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and > > talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has > > been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have > > something easy to send you over the net. > > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. > > Gordy. > > "tailgunnerson" > > gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan > > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos > > > > > > Hi Lloyd and all- > > > > Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's > > remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's > > because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a > > handful of men and planes in England. > > > > Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis > > Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd > > was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). > > And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I > > recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he > > intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong > > first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It > > seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal > > attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he > > saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to > > replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something > > to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you > > guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an > > observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel > > II. > > > > Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his > > experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and > > is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. > > I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe > > he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely > > reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel > > was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew > > over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is off > > the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a ground > > crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) > > > > I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, > > it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge > > collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been very > > generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a > > bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs on > > the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 20:44:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:44:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Spider Smith Message-ID: Hi Spider! I see there is a plaque at Bassingbourn in memory of the Scouting Force. And here I thought I knew just about everything still left at Bassingbourn. Where is the plaque? I didn't see it in the Tower Museum or at the memorial at the entrance to the main gate? Kevin >From: "Gordon L. Alton" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:31:04 -0700 > >Interesting stuff, Spider. I've seen those pictures at Bassingbourn, when >I visited there in '99. Joe Harlick also showed me some. I remember in >some of them the planes were covered in snow, during the cold winter of >'44-45. Were you there then? I'd sure like to hear more about this, if >you'd care to share. >I'll check out the site. >Thanks, > >Gordy. >"tailgunnerson" >____________________________ > >-----Original Message----- >From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com >[mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Dick Smith >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:05 AM >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > > >Hi Gordon and all: > This is Spider Smith I did my Bomber tour at Moulsworth and completed >the >last 10 missions of my P51 tour at Bassingbourn . My wife and I visited >there in 1995 and I got the chance to see the Tower Museum where I >explained >some pictures they had of our unit The 1st Scouting Force . We lived in >buildings outside the base kind of apartment buildings. >We also had a Martin B26 which we used for Target towing and a Mosquito >we >used to drop window (Chaff) ahead of the lead Bomb group so they would be >covered. > See the Scouting force Web Page at >www.pyker.dircon.co.uk enjoy > Spider Smith >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon L. Alton" >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:28 PM >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > > > > Hi Mike and all, > > You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. > > Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable > > trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways >of > > telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't >mention > > the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the > > 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th >AF > > could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. >I > > really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of > > info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of > > the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the > > closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, > > and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent > > veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing >short > > of extraordinary. > > > > One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because >of > > the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had >the > > best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was > > completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, > > parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country > > Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken > > with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, > > Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King > > and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of > > the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 > > photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the > > ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an > > article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other >fellows > > shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so > > tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of > > mumbled a "thank you". > > The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a >spic > > and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort > > overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) > > helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan >at > > that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds > > tours. > > George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you >want > > to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I > > can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and > > talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has > > been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have > > something easy to send you over the net. > > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. > > Gordy. > > "tailgunnerson" > > gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan > > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos > > > > > > Hi Lloyd and all- > > > > Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's > > remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's > > because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a > > handful of men and planes in England. > > > > Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis > > Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd > > was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). > > And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I > > recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he > > intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong > > first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It > > seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal > > attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he > > saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to > > replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something > > to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you > > guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an > > observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel > > II. > > > > Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his > > experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and > > is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. > > I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe > > he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely > > reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel > > was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew > > over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is >off > > the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a >ground > > crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) > > > > I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, > > it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge > > collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been >very > > generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a > > bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs >on > > the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Aug 27 22:28:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:28:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets and 303rd-Talk TOPICS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B8A5904.9655.AC7C0@localhost> > As one of the "Silent Majority" that you mentioned below, maybe I can > answer your question about what are we doing. Well for the most part > we are Lloyd Grant has chosen to leave the fourm. He will not be back. He asked to be removed. He was not booted off, but would have been if I had read the words he used to describe the "silent majority" in a private email prior to when he left. Don't ask me to repeat it. I don't talk like that. The matter is closed and I won't comment on it further. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 00:01:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:01:37 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Spider Smith References: Message-ID: <001201c12f4c$3aeb3e80$3ff833cf@richards> Kevin: The plaque was placed in 99 Dick Atkins at dick8af@flash.net should be able to give you a location ,he is the Scouting Forces Historian. Good luck! Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] To: Spider Smith > Hi Spider! I see there is a plaque at Bassingbourn in memory of the > Scouting Force. And here I thought I knew just about everything still left > at Bassingbourn. Where is the plaque? I didn't see it in the Tower Museum > or at the memorial at the entrance to the main gate? > Kevin > > > >From: "Gordon L. Alton" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:31:04 -0700 > > > >Interesting stuff, Spider. I've seen those pictures at Bassingbourn, when > >I visited there in '99. Joe Harlick also showed me some. I remember in > >some of them the planes were covered in snow, during the cold winter of > >'44-45. Were you there then? I'd sure like to hear more about this, if > >you'd care to share. > >I'll check out the site. > >Thanks, > > > >Gordy. > >"tailgunnerson" > >____________________________ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > >[mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Dick Smith > >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:05 AM > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > > > > > >Hi Gordon and all: > > This is Spider Smith I did my Bomber tour at Moulsworth and completed > >the > >last 10 missions of my P51 tour at Bassingbourn . My wife and I visited > >there in 1995 and I got the chance to see the Tower Museum where I > >explained > >some pictures they had of our unit The 1st Scouting Force . We lived in > >buildings outside the base kind of apartment buildings. > >We also had a Martin B26 which we used for Target towing and a Mosquito > >we > >used to drop window (Chaff) ahead of the lead Bomb group so they would be > >covered. > > See the Scouting force Web Page at > >www.pyker.dircon.co.uk enjoy > > Spider Smith > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gordon L. Alton" > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:28 PM > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Station 121 Bassingbourn and the Belle > > > > > > > Hi Mike and all, > > > You are bang on the mark with the info about Birdsong, and Gable. > > > Everything you say is correct to my knowledge. The story about Gable > > > trying to tell the crew about HeavyMG defense has a few different ways > >of > > > telling, but your version is essentially the correct one. I won't > >mention > > > the other 4 or 5 I've heard. The 303rd was in the 1st Division with the > > > 91st, and earlier on, when combat wings were about as much as the 8th > >AF > > > could field, many missions were flown alongside of or near to the 91st. > >I > > > really noticed that when I was reading Bob Hand's book. I got a lot of > > > info on my Dad's 1943 missions with the 91st BG, from it. It is one of > > > the reasons I take part here, and on the 381st BG ring, because of the > > > closeness of all 40thCBW, 1stCBW, and 1st Division USAAF groups. That, > > > and the fact this ring has some of the most verbose, and intelligent > > > veterans around. Your guy's memories of long ago events are nothing > >short > > > of extraordinary. > > > > > > One of the reasons things got so much publicity at the 91 was because > >of > > > the good proximity to London, good roads there and back, and they had > >the > > > best accommodations of any bomb group in the ETA. Station 121 was > > > completed in 1938, complete with brick barracks, Sgt. and Off. Mess, > > > parade ground that wasn't mud....etc. It became known as the "Country > > > Club" of the 8th AF, so naturally, when someone wanted pictures taken > > > with movie stars, generals, even the King and Queen of England, > > > Bassingbourn was the first choice. I have seen the pictures of the King > > > and Queen (the now Queen mother, 101yr old), giving congratulations of > > > the highest kind to the crew of the Memphis Belle. Joe has about 25 > > > photos of the Belle, and about half are of that day. Also, one of the > > > ground crew of the 441st Sub Depot, Charlie Busa, sent me a copy of an > > > article that appeared in his hometown paper, of him and two other > >fellows > > > shaking the hand of the Queen (mom). He said all three of them were so > > > tongue tied that none of them could say a word, and all just sort of > > > mumbled a "thank you". > > > The fact of photo opportunity to send home to the States, showing a > >spic > > > and span airbase, meant to be representative of the American effort > > > overseas, and a real gung ho publicity major (his name escapes me now) > > > helped the "Memphis Belle", and it's crew, captained by Robert Morgan > >at > > > that time and flight, get all the glory, and head home for the Bonds > > > tours. > > > George Birdsong is alive and well, and living in California. If you > >want > > > to contact me off list, I think I might be able to put you in touch. I > > > can give you Joe's phone number then, as well, and you could phone and > > > talk to him, or send him an email at the address Mike gave you. He has > > > been transferring a lot of his photos over to CDs, and might even have > > > something easy to send you over the net. > > > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I will try to assist. > > > Gordy. > > > "tailgunnerson" > > > gordy@saltspring.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Mike McClanahan > > > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:35 AM > > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Delta Rebel II, Clarke Gable & Photos > > > > > > > > > Hi Lloyd and all- > > > > > > Most of my research has been on my uncle's group (the 91st), but it's > > > remarkable the ways the 303rd and 91st intersect. I suppose it's > > > because they both are pioneer groups of the 8AF when there were but a > > > handful of men and planes in England. > > > > > > Of course we all know the rivalry between Hell's Angels and the Memphis > > > Belle (in case any new members don't know, Hell's Angels of the 303rd > > > was first to 25 missions, but the 91st's Belle got all the publicity). > > > And Clarke Gable spent more time at the 303rd than at the 91st, as I > > > recall. But interestingly enough, when Gable was at the 91st, he > > > intersected with Delta Rebel II and George Birdsong, meeting Birdsong > > > first when Gable came to Bassingbourn to give gunnery instruction. It > > > seems that Gable's mission was to help crews counteract the frontal > > > attacks and was there to explain tactics and countermeasures. When he > > > saw Delta Rebel II, the first 91st plane to have .50s installed to > > > replace the .30s in its nose, he looked at Birdsong and said something > > > to the effect that "I guess I don't have anything new to tell you > > > guys." He went on to fly some missions with the 91st as an > > > observer/trainer/photographer, including with Birdsong in Delta Rebel > > > II. > > > > > > Lloyd, I know you're trying to learn more about your dad and his > > > experiences, so you might like to know that Birdsong is still alive and > > > is a member of the 91st BGMA. I don't know if he's on the e-mail ring. > > > I looked at the addresses and couldn't determine for sure, but believe > > > he may be. Gordy Alton can tell you for sure, I suspect. The likely > > > reason DRII flew over with the 303rd is that the original Delta Rebel > > > was wrecked stateside (en route to England, I think), and the crew flew > > > over in a replacement aircraft that became Delta Rebel II. (This is > >off > > > the top of my head, but I think it's right. I think someone on a > >ground > > > crew wrecked the plane taxiing it.) > > > > > > I guess you already got Joe Harlick's e-mail, but in case you didn't, > > > it's owljojen@techline.com. As Gordy mentioned, he has a huge > > > collection of photos, mostly from the 91st, of course, and has been > >very > > > generous in sharing whatever information he has. He has posted quite a > > > bit of info regarding the duties of the photo unit and combat photogs > >on > > > the 91st mail ring. He even has some pix of Gable with Delta Rebel II. > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > > > Mike McClanahan > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 00:36:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:36:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] DATE 26 MARCH 1942 - JAY GORDON Message-ID: <000801c12f51$1bd22d60$44bb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12F27.309844C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YOU ARE RIGHT THE 303RD WAS NOT THERE. Mel McCoy wrote the history of the 444th Sub-depot [formerly the 328th = Service Sqadron.].in 1996. I and several others from A/C Supply helped = with the names and MOS Numbers. for the Supply. The history was written = for Harry Gobrecht In the webs History of the 303rd it states the group arrived iat = Mosleswort on 9 Sept 1942 -- The 444th arrived on 8 Oct 1942 = ------------The rest is history-------Maurice Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12F27.309844C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

YOU ARE RIGHT THE 303RD WAS NOT = THERE.

Mel McCoy wrote the history of the = 444th Sub-depot=20 [formerly the 328th Service Sqadron.].in 1996. I and several = others from=20 A/C Supply helped with the names and MOS Numbers. for the Supply. = The=20 history was written for Harry Gobrecht

In the webs History of the 303rd = it states=20 the group arrived iat Mosleswort on 9 Sept 1942 -- The 444th = arrived on 8=20 Oct 1942 ------------The rest is history-------Maurice = Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C12F27.309844C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 00:06:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:06:50 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest, Vol 1 #371-commentary Message-ID: <109.4adaf1c.28bc2c8a@aol.com> --part1_109.4adaf1c.28bc2c8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Back to basic information... I flew a few lead missions and I never went 170 mph, but maybe that's why some formations were so strung out. I landed at Bassingbourn one time and I thought it was like being at Ike's headquarters..about Clark Gable, he had a motorcycle and a suit at Mount Roll hotel in London....one time I was all revved up and ready to taxi out when a staff car pulled up and a one star got out carrying Gables' bags and put them on the B-17..I don't remember if it was my plane or the one behind me but I remember General Travis' brother (Col. Travis) was with me (my 25th combat mission), and away we went. About Bill Heller...our crews were in the same hut and we were at S.F. together. The next time I saw Bill Heller, I was duty officer at Hickum Field and a VIP airplane landed from the Philippines and who was the pilot?, Bill Heller. Bill and I know what Isthmus is but what is a 13 ship box formation???, Heller has traveled the world and gives good advice...... A note to Sean Loppom...your grandfather and I went through B-17 Instructor school at Columbus in Ohio in July of 1944 and your grandmother "Peggy" came down to Columbus Ohio and took Jack Loppom back to Boulder Colorado to marry him..till next time.. cheers.... Bill Bergeron --part1_109.4adaf1c.28bc2c8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
Back to basic information...
      I flew a few lead missions and I never went 170 mph, but maybe that's
why some formations were so strung out. I landed at Bassingbourn one time and
I thought it was like being at Ike's headquarters..about Clark Gable, he had
a motorcycle and a suit at Mount Roll hotel in London....one time I was all
revved up and ready to taxi out when a staff car pulled up and a one star got
out carrying Gables' bags and put them on the B-17..I don't remember if it
was my plane or the one behind me but I remember General Travis' brother
(Col. Travis) was with me (my 25th combat mission), and away we went.
      About Bill Heller...our crews were in the same hut and we were at S.F.
together. The next time I saw Bill Heller, I was duty officer at Hickum Field
and a VIP airplane landed from the Philippines and who was the pilot?, Bill
Heller. Bill and I know what Isthmus is but what is a 13 ship box
formation???, Heller has traveled the world and gives good advice......
      A note to Sean Loppom...your grandfather and I went through B-17
Instructor school at Columbus in Ohio in July of 1944 and your grandmother
"Peggy" came down to Columbus Ohio and took Jack Loppom back to Boulder
Colorado to marry him..till next time..
cheers....
Bill Bergeron --part1_109.4adaf1c.28bc2c8a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 00:09:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:09:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin Pearson, Ball Turret Gunners Message-ID: Kevin, Your point is well taken. I saw BTG over a year ago. I don't remember hearing any blatant falsehoods. Guess they slipped by me. If such things were said in the show, then I agree with you wholeheartedly. My previous statements about shows "building up" pertain to the practice of making something seem more sensational. I'm with you though- I don't like bald face lies, just to make a buck. Take care............Ford J. Lauer III From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 03:42:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:42:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C WALL PAPER Message-ID: <001301c12f6b$152a89c0$2dbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C12F41.2B837620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IT IS BEE-OO-T-FULL---- A B-17 G with 303rd markings [ which I can not = decipher] faint triangle C on the tail and a triangle C in color on the right wing as a desk-top = wallpaper. You'll find it=20 on http://www.wallpaperdeluxe.com---under planes and rockets. I have it = and you'll love it. The best I've found so far.----Maurice Paulk ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C12F41.2B837620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IT IS BEE-OO-T-FULL---- A B-17 G = with 303rd=20 markings [ which I can not decipher] faint triangle C

on the tail and a triangle C in = color on the=20 right wing as a desk-top wallpaper. You'll find it

on http://www.wallpaperdeluxe.com---under planes and rockets. I have it and you'll = love=20 it.

The best I've found so = far.----Maurice=20 Paulk

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C12F41.2B837620-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 08:48:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Francisco Quinonez Lopez) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:48:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program Message-ID: <200108280348.AA246219016@etbyte.net> Yuo mention what I say many times that hitler many times acted as our allied by the mitakes he made.good thing ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Tooley, Dave" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:22:19 -0500 >Lloyd noted below that the Wasserfall contained 660 lbs. Of explosives. In >a normal tight flying formation is it conceivable that one of these could >knock down or damage several planes? If the answer is yes, then formation >flying would not be a good thing. I wonder what tactical changes this would >have brought about for us? Any thoughts? > >Dave Tooley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lloyd J Grant [SMTP:palidin@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 4:38 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Die Wasserfall program > > Here is an exerpt from an article I found while looking for >information on > the V2 rocket. More proof that Hitler was perhaps our best ally at >times: > > "Albert Speer considered his support of the V2 program to be one of >the > biggest mistakes he made during his tenure as Minister of Armaments. >The > alternative program that Speer, in hindsight, would have backed >fully was > project ' Wasserfall' (waterfall). This was a 25ft. long >antiaircraft > missle whose development, in 1942, had paralleled that of the V-2. >The > Wasserfall rocket could be guided to its' aerial target by a >directional > beam that was not affected by weather or darkness. The rocket could >carry > 660 pounds of explosives up to altitudes of 50,000 ft. and was >extremely > accurate. Speer reasoned (after the fact) that producing several >thaousand > a month of these smaller , less expensive rockets in 1944, instead >of > hundreds of V-2 rockets, might have prevented the devastating Allied >air > strikes on German industry. " German Weapons in WWII.htm > > I get a cold shudder just thinking about what might have happened if >such a > weapon had been deployed and used against our bomber formations. > > Anyone else care to comment on this? > > Lloyd. > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 15:36:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:36:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin Pearson, Ball Turret Gunners Message-ID: I'm glad you weren't offended by my comments! Suicide Missions BTG is the classic example of glorifying war. In addition, it made the BTG sound like he had the most hazardous position in the plane, and that he was the most important crew member. And as we all know, it took the entire crew, working as a team, to get back to base. I used to like these kind of shows until the veterans told mne what it was REALLY all about. Cheers Kevin >From: Fordlauer@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Kevin Pearson, Ball Turret Gunners >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:09:40 EDT > >Kevin, > >Your point is well taken. I saw BTG over a year ago. I don't remember >hearing >any blatant falsehoods. Guess they slipped by me. If such things were said >in >the show, then I agree with you wholeheartedly. My previous statements >about >shows "building up" pertain to the practice of making something seem more >sensational. I'm with you though- I don't like bald face lies, just to make >a >buck. > >Take care............Ford J. Lauer III > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 15:54:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:54:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Heller and Bill Bergeron Message-ID: OK, guys, I give up. Just what is an Isthmus? Having lived in Madison, Wisconsin, and having an isthmus there, we always described it as a strip of land between two lakes, in fact, that's the way the dictionary defines it. Is there some aeronautical term associated with this word? Kevin >From: Shaddoe2@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest, Vol 1 #371-commentary >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:06:50 EDT > >To All, >Back to basic information... > I flew a few lead missions and I never went 170 mph, but maybe >that's >why some formations were so strung out. I landed at Bassingbourn one time >and >I thought it was like being at Ike's headquarters..about Clark Gable, he >had >a motorcycle and a suit at Mount Roll hotel in London....one time I was all >revved up and ready to taxi out when a staff car pulled up and a one star >got >out carrying Gables' bags and put them on the B-17..I don't remember if it >was my plane or the one behind me but I remember General Travis' brother >(Col. Travis) was with me (my 25th combat mission), and away we went. > About Bill Heller...our crews were in the same hut and we were at >S.F. >together. The next time I saw Bill Heller, I was duty officer at Hickum >Field >and a VIP airplane landed from the Philippines and who was the pilot?, Bill >Heller. Bill and I know what Isthmus is but what is a 13 ship box >formation???, Heller has traveled the world and gives good advice...... > A note to Sean Loppom...your grandfather and I went through B-17 >Instructor school at Columbus in Ohio in July of 1944 and your grandmother >"Peggy" came down to Columbus Ohio and took Jack Loppom back to Boulder >Colorado to marry him..till next time.. >cheers.... >Bill Bergeron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 15:57:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:57:05 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bill Heller and Bill Bergeron Message-ID: OK, guys, I give up. Just what is an Isthmus? Having lived in Madison, Wisconsin, and having an isthmus there, we always described it as a strip of land between two lakes, in fact, that's the way the dictionary defines it. Is there some aeronautical term associated with this word? Kevin >From: Shaddoe2@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest, Vol 1 #371-commentary >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:06:50 EDT > >To All, >Back to basic information... > I flew a few lead missions and I never went 170 mph, but maybe >that's >why some formations were so strung out. I landed at Bassingbourn one time >and >I thought it was like being at Ike's headquarters..about Clark Gable, he >had >a motorcycle and a suit at Mount Roll hotel in London....one time I was all >revved up and ready to taxi out when a staff car pulled up and a one star >got >out carrying Gables' bags and put them on the B-17..I don't remember if it >was my plane or the one behind me but I remember General Travis' brother >(Col. Travis) was with me (my 25th combat mission), and away we went. > About Bill Heller...our crews were in the same hut and we were at >S.F. >together. The next time I saw Bill Heller, I was duty officer at Hickum >Field >and a VIP airplane landed from the Philippines and who was the pilot?, Bill >Heller. Bill and I know what Isthmus is but what is a 13 ship box >formation???, Heller has traveled the world and gives good advice...... > A note to Sean Loppom...your grandfather and I went through B-17 >Instructor school at Columbus in Ohio in July of 1944 and your grandmother >"Peggy" came down to Columbus Ohio and took Jack Loppom back to Boulder >Colorado to marry him..till next time.. >cheers.... >Bill Bergeron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 20:53:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:53:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: <3B8B943E.29697.1DAD51@localhost> I'm curious how many here are going to be in Baltimore next week? My wife Susan and I will be there late Tuesday the 4th and fly home the next Monday. I hope a few of you are going. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 20:53:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:53:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: <145.a816fe.28bd50b0@aol.com> gary i plan to be there over wednesday evening and meeting in morning. hope we meet. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 20:52:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:52:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER Message-ID: <001001c12ffb$03f3f160$0fbb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C12FD1.1A5C2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THIS IS THE REPLY I REC'D FROM BILL JONES.---- THOUGHT YOU PEOPLE MIGHT = BE INTERESTED. I THOUGHT THE PHOTO HAD BEEN RETOUCHED---NEVER REMEMBER OF A TRIANGLE C = ON THE WING!!!!!! MAURICE PAULK ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ That looks like the "reproduction" of Thunderbird, ie 42-38050, however=20 I'm pretty sure it is not the real thunderbird, but rather is 44-85718,=20 owned by the lone star flight museum. I say this because I'm pretty = sure=20 that the markings on the tail are not authentic. Ie the white triangle=20 inside the red triangle is too small, and the #2 above the triangle is = too=20 big, and the "BN" on the fuselate is also too small. Also, that B-17=20 seems to have the later type of tail rather than the canvas covered = tail,=20 which I think would be more likely to have been on the real thunderbird. = =20 I'm sure Gary Moncur would know if it were the real thunderbird, but I=20 don't think so. In any event, it is a nice picture. Thanks. =20 =20 Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX > htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C12FD1.1A5C2000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

THIS IS THE REPLY I REC'D = FROM BILL=20 JONES.---- THOUGHT YOU PEOPLE MIGHT BE INTERESTED.

I THOUGHT THE PHOTO HAD BEEN = RETOUCHED---NEVER=20 REMEMBER OF A TRIANGLE C ON THE WING!!!!!!

MAURICE PAULK

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That looks like the "reproduction" of = Thunderbird,=20 ie 42-38050, however
I'm pretty sure it is not the real = thunderbird,=20 but rather is 44-85718,
owned by the lone star flight = museum. I=20 say this because I'm pretty sure
that the markings on the tail = are not=20 authentic. Ie the white triangle
inside the red triangle = is too=20 small, and the #2 above the triangle is too
big, and the "BN" = on the=20 fuselate is also too small. Also, that B-17
seems to have the = later=20 type of tail rather than the canvas covered tail,
which I think = would=20 be more likely to have been on the real thunderbird.
I'm = sure=20 Gary Moncur would know if it were the real thunderbird, but = I
don't=20 think so.
   In any event, it is a nice picture. =20 Thanks.

Bill Jones Sweden = Maine  =20 N3JLQ    wejones@megalink.net
>=20 htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones   TVRO,Space,Ham = radio,WX
>=20 htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html  =20 B-17/wwii/303rdBG

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C12FD1.1A5C2000-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 22:20:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:20:11 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER In-Reply-To: <001001c12ffb$03f3f160$0fbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3B8BA89B.20560.6D3E52@localhost> The B-17 here: http://www.wallpaperdeluxe.com/a003.html is definately the restored Thunderbird, owned by the Lone Star Flight Museum. It looks to me like a retouched version of a print I have hangngin on my wall right next to me. It is almost an identical view. It is a nice pic. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 21:38:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:38:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT References: <3B8BA89B.20560.6D3E52@localhost> Message-ID: <3B8C014C.A9D38751@attglobal.net> There seems to be some unrest in the 303rd website �Forum� presentation. So much so that some have opted out and others just don�t participate. Much of the reason for this is due to the fact that we are, more or less, warned as to what our subject of discussion may be. While this flys in the face of the First Amendment .. it nevertheless points up an important fact very much disregarded in today�s society ... and that is ... �He who pays the Fiddler calls the tune!� And, if he makes the rules, so be it. As a foray into being warned to stay off politics, that last is what is mainly wrong with our society today ... WE ARE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THINGS WE ACTUALLY DO NOT WANT AND GIVING TOO MUCH OF OUR TREASURE ABOUT THE WORLD TO PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENTS WHO HAVE HAD FAR LONGER THAN OUR MERE 225 YEARS TO NURTURE AND GROW! And, no one seems to give a darn. They go on and on paying their taxes which are taken at gunpoint to be poured down rat holes in many parts of the third world, and also, in some parts of the First World! But let�s get back to the �forum� ... shall we? If things like this are NOT a subject for conversation within the confines of �what we did� in the war ... then there is something wrong. We, of the Greatest Generation, are constantly being asked questions about our war (the one we won). The problem with this is that those �questions� by second, third and fourth generations from ours .. are tempered with the mores and beliefs of today. This prevents those questions from being basic and desirous of a proper answer. Today�s generation is brought up on the belief that no one is responsible for his or her actions. They are nurtured in a society which at the least bit of problems for them ... they are in need of �counseling� or, to put it bluntly ... someone to hold their hand! We never had that. Upon return from a mission, those pictures of smiling crew members WAS DUE TO THE FACT THEY HAD JUST COMPLETED ANOTHER MISSION AND MAY FINISH THEIR TOUR OF 25! Many questions about those �smiles� seem to deem that they have some underlying meaning. THOSE GUYS ARE JUST HAPPY THEY WERE NOT SHOT DOWN! When we went to debriefing, a routine necessity regardless of the inane thoughts about it which were put forth by our questioners .... when we went there we were given a shot of whisky by a Red Cross Girl .. directed to an open table for our turn ... and then it was get something to eat, go to bed and hope to hell you would NOT be called out again in the next early morning for another mnission! WE HAD NO ONE TO HOLD OUR HANDS AND �EASE� US INTO HOW TO FEEL ABOUT OUR BUDDIES WHO WERE JUST BLASTED OFF OUR WING A FEW HOURS PRIOR! Today, when one or two citizens meet a horrible fate in a neighborhood there are silly yellow ribbons tied to trees, there are phony PhDs arriving in droves to �counsel� the people on their loss and how to deal with it! Yechh! The people asking us questions do not know how to deal with our answers ... Why? Because in their world there are no actual absolutes! There is an excuse for everything one does no matter how gross or immoral! If you do not believe this, look at our body politic for the past 9 years! And, you can even go back as far as 1969 to a little bridge near an Island in a Massachusetts Bay! We have no basic morals anymore. And until we return to that attitude, our answers will still be tempered with �how they thought it should have been done� .... ! I was the Guest Speaker at Travis AFB to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the USAF, in 1997. The Base Commander treated my wife and me very wonderfully. We were billeted in the Arnold House, fully staffed and stocked with food and booze. A nice two days. When the General who picked us up for the evening activities asked me how I would begin my speech I had to tell him I did not know ....BUT, his very asking me GAVE me my opening. A few hours later it was speech time .... After thanking everyone present, and telling them my speech would be about �our war� ... I began by saying ... LADIES & GENTLEMEN, I fought combat in WW#2 with the famed US 8th AF in the ETO .... WE DID NOT HAVE SMART BOMBS! WE HAD SMART BOMBARDIERS! ..... It brought the house down. 750 of them! In a huge brand new KC10 Hangar! And, that one statement did the trick. Our war was different. But, WE WON IT! So when you ask the questions about what, how, and when we did what we did ... please remember that THAT WAS THE WAY IT WAS DONE BACK THEN WHEN WINNING WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT IF WE WERE TO SURVIVE AS A NATION! There is no way you can compare OUR war to the thinking of today! And we did it with men raised in America�s worst depression; honed on the results of a stock market crash; schooled among our peers, many of whom did not get a fine meal except once a week; boys and girls who wore big brother�s and sister�s hand-me-downs to school; whose greatest topic for conversation was what they had for dinner the night before ... and those less fortunate who were cared for by the more fortunate neighbors rather than a fraud-bound federal program dealt out by Solons living the life of luxury the likes of which many Royalties do not even know. We are proud to be called the Greatest Generation, for we ARE! And if we insist on saying and writing things as we see fit ... that is a very vital part of our Constitution ... a sacred document which is given short shrift by our parasitical Solons today. Thank you. I will write and say what I please. Cheers! Bill Heller Gary Moncur wrote: > The B-17 here: > http://www.wallpaperdeluxe.com/a003.html > is definately the restored Thunderbird, owned by the Lone Star Flight Museum. > It looks to me like a retouched version of a print I have hangngin on my wall right > next to me. It is almost an identical view. It is a nice pic. Thanks! > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 22:11:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:11:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: <92.19cd05ca.28bd6308@aol.com> I most sincerely regret not being able to attend the Reunion in Baltimore. Our recent relocation and some heavy problems have made it impossible. I will miss all you fine folks that I see on Email, that's for sure. Those that attend, have a wonderful reunion!!! Best Wishes and Cheers to all. Bob and Nyela Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 22:47:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:47:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Message-ID: bill i liked your thoughts. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 00:22:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:22:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion Message-ID: <132.c86ca4.28bd81cc@aol.com> Gary, I plan on arriving the evening of the 3rd and leaving the 10th. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 22:41:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Humphrey O'Leary) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:41:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion Message-ID: <003501c1300a$393a1ac0$d1b2b2d1@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My wife, Lavonne, and I are going to Baltimore and are looking forward to seeing you and Susan. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My wife, Lavonne, and I are going to = Baltimore and=20 are looking forward

to seeing you and = Susan.

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 00:15:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:15:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Message-ID: <120.3ba5777.28bd802d@aol.com> Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express my thoughts as well as you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing you say except the shape of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not sure about that last one. I look forward to talking to you in DC Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 00:25:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER Message-ID: <87.f3fdbc7.28bd8266@aol.com> Maurice, The red triangle C was on the wings when I was there in 44. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Aug 28 23:38:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:38:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 1ST AMENDMENT Message-ID: <000501c13012$3840cd00$12bb9ace@mjpmtman> Bill Heller--Praise the Lord - and pass the ammunition---- --You have called a spade a spade. I don't believe even the younger generation of modern warriors really have an inkling of how you combat personnel could cope. My son a 'Nam vet told me "You make peace with God and try to stay alive." He died of Lung Cancer at the age of 50 on August 26 this year.----- This may be digressin but I had to say what I thought.-- MAURICE PAULK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 02:30:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Sean Coppom) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:30:26 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT References: <3B8BA89B.20560.6D3E52@localhost> <3B8C014C.A9D38751@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3B8C45B2.E95B154@sanuk.net> Dear Bill- I have to say that I am disappointed in the opinion you hold of my generation. Of course our views our tempered with the "mores and beliefs of today." We were born when we were born and are shaped by what the world is today. However, to say that we can't understand the answers to our questions when they are given by the Greatest Generation is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I am trying hard to understand what went on and what it felt like to grow up in your generation, for no other reason then to know what my grandpa and all you guys went through. The very fact that I am here trying to learn despite some of the negativity I see in answers is proof of my dedication. I wish I could have known my grandpa and asked him some of the things that come to mind and gotten the answer tempered in a manner that, even if asked in a bad way, showed that he knew all I was trying to do was understand. I have corresponded with you off of the board and I have great respect for you as does my family. It seems you don't think much of my generation, but I can tell you that if I were called to serve my country today I would gladly pick up the torch and carry it on. Not with the false bravado of movie made heroes, but because I know the history of this country and men like yourselves. I'm not here to offend anyone and there will never be any cynicism in my questions, I'm only here to learn...and I think most others are too. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 03:19:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] targets Message-ID: <3a.19ed9682.28bdab33@aol.com> AMEN!!!! From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 03:45:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (VONDRA BURRELL) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:45:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1300A.D2EC6B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First off I agree with Bill Heller. Good Show. Secondly, I'm 38, and wh= ile I agree that much of my own generation has forgotten or never learned= , Those that are 20 today are clueless. I must say that the fact that yo= u are on this forum puts you a cut above the avg of what ever generation = you are speaking of. =20 Lance Burrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Coppom Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:55 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Dear Bill- I have to say that I am disappointed in the opinion you hold of my generation. Of course our views our tempered with the "mores and beliefs of today." We were born when we were born and are shaped by what the world is today. However, to say that we can't understand the answers to our questions when they are given by the Greatest Generation is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I am trying hard to understand what went on and what it felt like to grow up in your generation, for no other reason then to know what my grandpa and all you guys went through. The very fact that I am here trying to learn despite some of the negativity I see in answers is proof of my dedication. I wish I could have known my grandpa and asked him some of the things that come to mind and gotten the answer tempered in a manner that, even if asked in a bad way, showed that he knew all I was trying to do was understand. I have corresponded with you off of the board and I have great respect for you as does my family. It seems you don't think much of my generation, but I can tell you that if I were called to serve my country today I would gladly pick up the torch and carry it on. Not with the false bravado of movie made heroes, but because I know the history of this country and men like yourselves. I'm not here to offend anyone and there will never be any cynicism in my questions, I'm only here to learn...and I think most others are too. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1300A.D2EC6B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First off I ag= ree with Bill Heller. Good Show. Secondly, I'm 38, and while = I agree that much of my own generation has forgotten or never learned, Th= ose that are 20 today are clueless. I must say that the fact that y= ou are on this forum puts you a cut above the avg of what ever generation= you are speaking of.

Lance Burrell

<= BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MAR= GIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">

----- Original Message -----

From: Sean Coppom

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8= :55 PM

To: 303rd-talk@303rdB= GA.com

Subject: Re: [303rd-T= alk] FIRST AMENDMENT

Dear Bill-

  = ; I have to say that I am disappointed in the opinion you hold of m= y
generation. Of course our views our tempered with the "mores a= nd
beliefs of today." We were born when we were born and are sha= ped by
what the world is today. However, to say that we can't un= derstand the
answers to our questions when they are given by the Great= est Generation
is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I= am trying hard to
understand what went on and what it felt like to gr= ow up in your
generation, for no other reason then to know what my gra= ndpa and all you
guys went through. The very fact that I am here= trying to learn despite
some of the negativity I see in answers is pr= oof of my dedication. I
wish I could have known my grandpa and a= sked him some of the things that
come to mind and gotten the answer te= mpered in a manner that, even if
asked in a bad way, showed that he kn= ew all I was trying to do was
understand. I have corresponded wi= th you off of the board and I have
great respect for you as does my fa= mily. It seems you don't think much
of my generation, but I can = tell you that if I were called to serve my
country today I would gladl= y pick up the torch and carry it on. Not
with the false bravado = of movie made heroes, but because I know the
history of this country a= nd men like yourselves. I'm not here to offend
anyone and there = will never be any cynicism in my questions, I'm only
here to learn...a= nd I think most others are too.

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1300A.D2EC6B00-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 06:09:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon L. Alton) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:09:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Missing evadees 1943 Message-ID: Hello to all. I want to reproduce an email placed on the HeavyBombers.com list tonight, concerning a search for some downed airman who evaded capture in 1943. One of the reasons I thought it pertinent for this list, is that at least 2 and maybe more of the airmen involved were from the 303rd. If anyone can help out, please email the individual at the bottom, Ian le Sueur, Jersey Islands. If I hear any more, I'll be sure to let you all know. Thanks, Gordy. Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Is.,BC,Can. V8K1E1 phone 250-537-5913 gordy@saltspring.com "tailgunnerson" __________________________________ The message follows: -----Original Message----- From: Ian Le Sueur (EN830 Research) [mailto:en830@jerseymail.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Help with search for US Air Force Evaders Hello to you all I hope that you may be able to help me. Listed below are the names of several US Airmen who were shot down over France and who evaded capture in 1943. They were all assisted by the same French family in Brest Brittany. Later this year a UK based television company in association with US and French channels intend to make a documentary on this family and their war time experiences. The TV company would like to contact these airmen with a view to gaining some sort of input from them. Could you please take a moment to cast an eye over the list to see if any of the names mean anything to you. If they do would you be able to give me any information you can. I would especially like to know if these airmen are still alive and from where did they part of the States did they originate from? I have added what information that I have on a number of them. Frank Kimotek (Possible lives in California), shot down in B17 42-29635 of 303 Rd BG on 31 August 1943 returned to UK 25/10/43 MACR 470 Jack A Ryan Demetrius Kamezis (Contacted now lives in California) Edwin R Myers Wayne Rader Richard 'Dick' Cunningham Lt H Cabot Rowland Duane Lawhead Allen J Piebe James G Wilson Harold E Thomson (Contacted now lives in Washington) William B Dunning Jr. Merle E Martin (Contacted now lives in California) Walter Hargrove shot down in B17 42-29635 of 303rd BG 31 August 1943 returned to UK 27/12/43 William Rice Sgt Floyd M Carl Russell M Brook Raymond Bye Vernon E Drew Jr. Lionel E Clark Charles B Bronner Sgt M C Ramirez Sgt Donald D McLeod Sgt Marion Hall Lt Ernest Hugonnet John Paul Semach James N Quinn Harry L Minor James A Schneider Evered F Palmer Attilio Robert Gassidi Warren Graff (Shot down 30 July 1943 in P47C 41-6391 of 82nd FS 78th FG MACR 135) Sorry that I don't have ranks units etc.... All that I know is that they were all shot down during 1943 and returned to the UK by 01/01/44. Thank you for all your help in advance, I also apologise if I sent this e-mail to you more than once. Kind regards from a hot and humid Jersey Channel Islands UK. Ian Le Sueur en830@jerseymail.co.uk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 07:18:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:18:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Greatest Generation Message-ID: --part1_a.11cabc60.28bde351_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Heller's remarks deserve further exploration. This is merely my opinion, but the generation that grew up during the Great Depression, served during WWII, served during Korea, served during Vietnam, and defended the peace during the Cold War has probably done more for the preservation of civilization as we know it than any other generation. Some of this particular generation participated in all of these events. As a young person I can recall the light casualties which were reported during the Vietnam conflict. I am only one generation removed from WWII, but it is difficult for me to imagine the horrific casualties which were endured by the United States. It is mind boggling to comprehend the losses of all WWII participants. Somehow the veterans who survived WWII came home and continued with their lives. They returned to the work force, went to school, and raised families without much fanfare. The significance of WWII and WWII veterans has only been recently recognized. At the time, service in WWII was just another job. I find this to be quite remarkable. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_a.11cabc60.28bde351_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Bill Heller's remarks deserve further exploration. This is merely my
opinion, but the generation that grew up during the Great Depression, served
during WWII, served during Korea, served during Vietnam, and defended the
peace during the Cold War has probably done more for the preservation of
civilization as we know it than any other generation. Some of this
particular generation participated in all of these events.

      As a young person I can recall the light casualties which were
reported during the Vietnam conflict. I am only one generation removed from
WWII, but it is difficult for me to imagine the horrific casualties which
were endured by the United States. It is mind boggling to comprehend the
losses of all WWII participants.

      Somehow the veterans who survived WWII came home and continued with
their lives. They returned to the work force, went to school, and raised
families without much fanfare. The significance of WWII and WWII veterans
has only been recently recognized. At the time, service in WWII was just
another job. I find this to be quite remarkable.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_a.11cabc60.28bde351_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 11:52:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:52:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Talk digest,Vol 1 # 371, Message-ID: <6a.12cb66bb.28be236a@aol.com> --part1_6a.12cb66bb.28be236a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Bill Jones (and the rest of the digest group), Yes, you know I was kidding, mostly kidding Bill Heller, about Bill's (hellers) comments..I arrived in England in June of 43 as a copilot and the squadron had maybe 6 aircraft when I left in March of 44, to go back to the US. The 303rd was getting bigger and having more aircraft per squadron when I return to the bomb group in August of 44 and I was a lead pilot on my 2nd tour of 13 missions..i don't remember exactly how many aircraft were behind me. The missions had more aircraft per squadron so the squadrons could have as many as 30 plus aircraft each. It got to the pioint where there were so many lead pilots I rarly flew any more missions after that. ps: yes Bill (me) is listed as "Willard" in the book "Might In Flight" and on the cd-rom cheers, Bill Bergeron --part1_6a.12cb66bb.28be236a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Bill Jones (and the rest of the digest group),
      Yes, you know I was kidding, mostly kidding Bill Heller, about Bill's
(hellers) comments..I arrived in England in June of 43 as a copilot and the
squadron had maybe 6 aircraft when I left in March of 44, to go back to the
US. The 303rd was getting bigger and having more aircraft per squadron when
I return to the bomb group in August of 44 and I was a lead pilot on my 2nd
tour of 13 missions..i don't remember exactly how many aircraft were behind
me. The missions had more aircraft per squadron so the squadrons could have
as many as 30 plus aircraft each. It got to the pioint where there were so
many lead pilots I rarly flew any more missions after that.
ps: yes Bill (me) is listed as "Willard" in the book "Might In Flight" and on
the cd-rom
cheers,
Bill Bergeron --part1_6a.12cb66bb.28be236a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 05:59:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:59:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT References: <120.3ba5777.28bd802d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B8C7696.521984E6@attglobal.net> Thanks, Jack, you old and great comrade ... WCH Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express my thoughts as well as > you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing you say except the shape > of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not sure about that last one. > I look forward to talking to you in DC > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 06:04:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:04:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT References: <3B8BA89B.20560.6D3E52@localhost> <3B8C014C.A9D38751@attglobal.net> <3B8C45B2.E95B154@sanuk.net> Message-ID: <3B8C77D2.BE0FA378@attglobal.net> Sean ... Your grandad was not only a great and good soldier, he was a man among men. I have so many little stories to tell about him, that it is difficult to know where to begin. You have every right to be proud of him. As for what I think of your generation is also homned by the era in which you live and the mores and morals you were dealt. I have no doubt you are a patriot and have a mind of your own. If my generation even IMAGINED to like what they see of today's society they would be HORRIBLY WRONG. But that does not say there are not exceptions .... WCH Sean Coppom wrote: > Dear Bill- > > I have to say that I am disappointed in the opinion you hold of my > generation. Of course our views our tempered with the "mores and > beliefs of today." We were born when we were born and are shaped by > what the world is today. However, to say that we can't understand the > answers to our questions when they are given by the Greatest Generation > is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I am trying hard to > understand what went on and what it felt like to grow up in your > generation, for no other reason then to know what my grandpa and all you > guys went through. The very fact that I am here trying to learn despite > some of the negativity I see in answers is proof of my dedication. I > wish I could have known my grandpa and asked him some of the things that > come to mind and gotten the answer tempered in a manner that, even if > asked in a bad way, showed that he knew all I was trying to do was > understand. I have corresponded with you off of the board and I have > great respect for you as does my family. It seems you don't think much > of my generation, but I can tell you that if I were called to serve my > country today I would gladly pick up the torch and carry it on. Not > with the false bravado of movie made heroes, but because I know the > history of this country and men like yourselves. I'm not here to offend > anyone and there will never be any cynicism in my questions, I'm only > here to learn...and I think most others are too. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 16:43:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:43:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Message-ID: Bill Heller: I'm going to weigh in on this issue since you and I got into it over Mexico a while back. I was even going to leave this list because of some of the comments I received then, but I am very glad I did not, because you and the rest on this forum have taught me many new things I otherwise never would have known. First of all, I agree with you 100% about being able to say what ever you want on this forum. If anyone has earned that right, you and all the rest of the veterans here have. I also think the focus of this forum should be on the 303rd, but I also believe any subject should be fair game. You are also 100% correct when you talk about "my" generation. I am ashamed of them. Somewhere along the way, my generation got lost in acquiring material wealth and being �happy.� Life has become a competition to see who dies with the most toys. The real things that are important mean nothing anymore, from hard work to family. Everything is disposable. It makes me sick, too. And I agree with you on your perception of our government and its decline. Bill, I've been all over the world too, but I can tell you this is still the best country in which to live, and I am still convinced our government is the best in the world despite all of its shortfalls. I have spent the last 30 years of my life, 30 years, Bill, trying to understand what you guys in the 8th went through. I don't know why I am so fascinated with this time in history, I just am. Whether it occurred on the home front, the movies, the music, or on the bases flying combat, I have been on a quest to learn what it was really like. And I honestly think I am beginning to understand. Maybe not KNOW, but at least UNDERSTAND. There is a big difference. I will never know how you felt as you were about to enter a flak corridor, but at least I understand what it must have been like and how I would feel. I'm 44 years of age. I did not have it easy growing up like most of my generation. My father entered the Navy in 1944 and served on an LST in the Philippines and South China Sea. When he was called up for Korea, he went into the Marines and was a Drill Instructor for three year. He lived through the Depression on a farm in Central, Illinois, and like many of you here, had a tough time. And he never, not for one minute, ever forgot who he was or where he came from. And he tried his very best to instill all of the values he learned in the Service and on the farm into us kids. I thought he was about as big a son of a bitch as I ever met until I got to be about 25, then realized how grateful I was in the way he raised me. His attitudes never changed, not one bit, and he was as tough as nails until the day he died. And I guess I look at my generation in part through the eyes of my father. And he would say the same thing about my generation and our society as you have. But please don't judge all of us in the same way. There are a few of us out there that don't fit the mold you describe, some of us who are trying to make a difference and make changes the peaceful way. I can't honestly believe you would wish for my generation to have to fight a war like you did to have the wisdom you do. But I think I know what you mean. When I was reading through your message, Bill, it was as if my father had written it. It is exactly what he would have said. And I understand how you feel. And I don't care if you disagree with me on this or any other comment made in this forum. Last time I looked, that was one of the basic freedoms of this country. (It sure beats saying, "Heil Hitler� or bowing to the Emperor!) I've learned a lot from you and the others in this forum, Bill, and for that, I thank you all. Cheers, Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 17:13:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:13:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:The Greatest Generation, memory and the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <200108291613.f7TGDYv14765@ns1.megalink.net> I am really sorry for getting into this discussion, because it is generally best to just let arguments in mailing lists fade out on their own accord. However I really have the fear that the particular topics involved here have the potential to interfere with what SHOULD be our main concern here, ie getting the story of the Greatest Generation passed down to the younger generation. I think it is really counter-productive to show contempt for the very generations who have your story in their hands. The younger generation in this list are generally just trying to do their best to document what you did. When you show contempt for the younger generation, or contempt for segments of that generation, like the "pompous jerk" professors, or the "phony" PhDs, you only make it less likely for the story to be recorded, and make it seem like the Greatest Generation didn't have the future of their country at heart after all. My biggest fear however, is that by introducing political discussions into this forum, you are increasing the liklihood of making it less likely for a segment of the veterans in the group to tell their story, and make it more likely that some segment of the next generation listening will stop listening. I know that the politics of the 40s were important to why we were there, and the current politics are important with respect to whether we are wasting the sacrifices made during the war, and whether we'll have to repeat the history, however I think that it is extremely important to get as many of the surviving veterans to tell their story, and introduction of these topics by the more vocal among us can have the affect of intimidating those who are on the edge with respect to telling their part of the story. Part of the problem in getting these stories told, is that there are some vets who are unsure of their memories, and seem to tend to rely on others to remember things for them, while others, seem confident of their memories but when held up against the records, these memories are often slightly in error. I think that we need to hear ALL the stories, to get the most complete picture of what happened. Last year, someone posted a short passage from a book in another bomber related mailing list, and I found it to be very revealing. The book, which I have not read, was "Old man in a baseball cap" - a memoir of WW2 written by Fred Rochlin, who was apparently a B-24 navigator in the African campaign. The passage from the book went: " About Accurate Recall by Fred Rochlin "I remember flying from Dakar in the Senegal across the Sahara Dessert through the Zagora Pass into Marrakech, Morocco. We were low on fuel. We landed at this dusty town, Timbuktu, mud huts, everyone speaking French. American Air Force fuel depot. Thousands of barrels of fifty gallon, one hundred octane aviation fuel. We had cold beers. Refueled, took off, flew through the Zagora Pass, through the Atlas Mountains and into Marrakech. I remember all this with pristine clarity. "It never happened. I checked my old navigator logs. We didn't land to refuel. We flew right through the Zagora Pass. And we wouldn't have refueled at Timbuktu anyway. Too far away from the course of our flight. So, where did that memory of that dusty French African town come from? "My memory, it's accurate and false at the same time. It's complex and simple. It changes constantly, often just to fit the circumstance. And yet, all this time I know I'm telling the truth because I'm relying on my memory. "I think one of the most generous things a person can do is share themselves wholeheartedly with another person. How do you do that? You take off your mask and the mask that's under the mask. You reveal yourself. You reveal yourself in the stories you choose to tell. We become redundant. We tell the same story over and over again. "The memory of our memories; the story of our stories. Complex and simple. Sometimes interesting, sometimes boring, sometimes true, sometimes not true. Always revealing. " Back to me. The reason I posted the above, is that I think there are some of the veterans on this list and elsewhere, who are afraid to tell their stories, because their memories are suspect. I can understand this well, because I often have doubts about my own memory. I am convinced that this happens to everyone, and I would think that it would be particularly likely for people who went through something as traumatic as WWII. I know that some of the members of this group have jokingly referred to their suspect memory before making a post. I trust these accounts more than any, because I feel that they are being most careful with the facts. But I'm sure that there are others vets out there, who are in a listening mode in this group. I'm sure that there are many reasons for this, all valid, but I just hope that being unsure of your memory or being overwhelmed by those more vocal vets arguing about politics isn't stopping you from joining in. With respect to the topic of the Greatest Generation, that label, while well deserved, can only be applied by later generations, not by the generation involved. And it can only be applied if the story is told. And because everyone has memory that is faulty, the story can only be accurately documented if everyone is encouraged to tell their own part of the story, regardless of the accuracy, and regardless of their political leanings. The final story will be the combination of all the little parts. If we only rely on the few to remember the whole story, we are likely to miss the most important aspects of the story. There was a comment yesterday about the younger generation not knowing how to deal with the answers to the questions that they ask. I don't see this as being a problem at all. The problem is that most of the questions posed to this group are not answered at all, or the answers are replaced by political discussion. I know that many of the questions must seem dumb, but that only shows that there is more need to get the facts out. If you don't respect and trust the younger generation to be the keepers of your story, that story will be in the hands of Hollywood and the History channel. Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 18:49:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:49:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RED TRIANGLE ON THE WING. Message-ID: <000801c130b3$0248f6e0$2abb9ace@mjpmtman> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C13089.15FADF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JACK - MY SECOND AND LAST FLIGHT WAS IN A 17 WAS IN A "G" FROM = MOLESWORTH TO CASA BLANCA. IN ' 6-11-'45. The problem was probably because I was standing up talking instead of = setting own listening - and looking. MAURICE PAULK ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C13089.15FADF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

JACK - MY SECOND AND LAST FLIGHT WAS IN = A 17 WAS IN=20 A "G" FROM MOLESWORTH TO CASA BLANCA. IN ' 6-11-'45.

The problem was probably because I was = standing up=20 talking instead of setting own listening - and looking.

MAURICE = PAULK

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C13089.15FADF20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 18:17:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:17:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT References: Message-ID: <3B8D23AA.6B85F377@attglobal.net> K. Pearson ... Thank you, Kevin. WCH Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill Heller: I'm going to weigh in on this issue since you and I got into > it over Mexico a while back. I was even going to leave this list because of > some of the comments I received then, but I am very glad I did not, because > you and the rest on this forum have taught me many new things I otherwise > never would have known. > > First of all, I agree with you 100% about being able to say what ever you > want on this forum. If anyone has earned that right, you and all the rest > of the veterans here have. I also think the focus of this forum should be > on the 303rd, but I also believe any subject should be fair game. > > You are also 100% correct when you talk about "my" generation. I am ashamed > of them. Somewhere along the way, my generation got lost in acquiring > material wealth and being �happy.� Life has become a competition to see who > dies with the most toys. The real things that are important mean nothing > anymore, from hard work to family. Everything is disposable. It makes me > sick, too. And I agree with you on your perception of our government and > its decline. Bill, I've been all over the world too, but I can tell you > this is still the best country in which to live, and I am still convinced > our government is the best in the world despite all of its shortfalls. > > I have spent the last 30 years of my life, 30 years, Bill, trying to > understand what you guys in the 8th went through. I don't know why I am so > fascinated with this time in history, I just am. Whether it occurred on the > home front, the movies, the music, or on the bases flying combat, I have > been on a quest to learn what it was really like. And I honestly think I am > beginning to understand. Maybe not KNOW, but at least UNDERSTAND. There is > a big difference. I will never know how you felt as you were about to enter > a flak corridor, but at least I understand what it must have been like and > how I would feel. > > I'm 44 years of age. I did not have it easy growing up like most of my > generation. My father entered the Navy in 1944 and served on an LST in the > Philippines and South China Sea. When he was called up for Korea, he went > into the Marines and was a Drill Instructor for three year. He lived > through the Depression on a farm in Central, Illinois, and like many of you > here, had a tough time. And he never, not for one minute, ever forgot who > he was or where he came from. And he tried his very best to instill all of > the values he learned in the Service and on the farm into us kids. I > thought he was about as big a son of a bitch as I ever met until I got to be > about 25, then realized how grateful I was in the way he raised me. His > attitudes never changed, not one bit, and he was as tough as nails until the > day he died. > > And I guess I look at my generation in part through the eyes of my father. > And he would say the same thing about my generation and our society as you > have. But please don't judge all of us in the same way. There are a few of > us out there that don't fit the mold you describe, some of us who are trying > to make a difference and make changes the peaceful way. > > I can't honestly believe you would wish for my generation to have to fight a > war like you did to have the wisdom you do. But I think I know what you > mean. > > When I was reading through your message, Bill, it was as if my father had > written it. It is exactly what he would have said. And I understand how > you feel. > > And I don't care if you disagree with me on this or any other comment made > in this forum. Last time I looked, that was one of the basic freedoms of > this country. (It sure beats saying, "Heil Hitler� or bowing to the > Emperor!) > > I've learned a lot from you and the others in this forum, Bill, and for > that, I thank you all. > Cheers, > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 18:55:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:55:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lone Star's B-17G Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DC1@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> That screensaver link that was posted is the Lone Star Flight Museum B-17G painted as the 303rd BG "Thunderbird", every time I see that fortress I can't help but notice that the aircraft has the horrible out of proportion Triangle C's painted on it. They look so tiny! It's half the size it should be!! Oh, well, Within the next few years that aircraft may need a new paint job, I hope it retains it's 303rd paint job. With a correct paint scheme of course :) Also does anyone know if Barksdale AFB still has a B-17G displayed in a semi 303rd paint scheme? I remember a video called "A Queen Dies Hard" about the Flying Fortress that has some footage of this A/C on outside display, although it had the wrong letter codes on the fuselage it had the proper late 44/45 style red border Triangle C on the tail. The silver 303rd B-17G looked sharp though! Looking forward to seeing all of you in Baltimore, Dad (303rd 427th BTG) and I will be there for the dinner and meeting on Friday the 8th and then we will drive down to DC for the day on Saturday for the Arlington ceremony and the Air & Space Museum. On a sad note Dad is just recovering from his second surgery in six months for a tumor on his bladder, as I write this I am waiting for a call from the doctor as to "Where we go from here". It's not a happy situation, but the visiting nurse just removed his catheter this morning (Dad called it his walk around bottle as only an 8th AF veteran can relate!) and now he's running around like a teenager again. This will be his first reunion besides the trip to Molesworth last year. I will have the photo albums from or trips so those interested can see Molesworth, the Hanger Dance and England again. Todd (A-637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 19:34:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Tooley, Dave) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:34:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Request for the former bombardiers Message-ID: Former bombardiers, My uncle served as a bombardier and I have good information about him as far as dates and places. But his real life experiences are a mystery. I was wondering if any you would be willing to field some occasional questions for me about life as a bombardier via off-forum emails. Things such as training, how/why you became a bombardier, day to day life at Molesworth, mission day responsibilities, etc. I would like to get an idea of what my uncle may have experienced in the last year of his life. I promise not to drive you crazy with emails. But when a question comes up I'd like to go directly to someone with a similar background. My email address is: dtooley@allstate.com . Thanks!! Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 21:33:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:33:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lone Star's B-17G References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DC1@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Message-ID: <002501c130c9$d1a07c40$2b3f22d1@billowen> Todd, I was at Barksdale a couple of years ago and the B-17 was there then. Can't tell you about the paint scheme though. At that time I did not know anything about the 303rd so I did not pay any attention to what may have been painted on it. Not much help but that's all I can tell you. I'm sure it is still there. Regards, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:55 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lone Star's B-17G > That screensaver link that was posted is the Lone Star Flight Museum > B-17G painted as the 303rd BG "Thunderbird", every time I see that fortress > I can't help but notice that the aircraft has the horrible out of proportion > Triangle C's painted on it. They look so tiny! It's half the size it should > be!! Oh, well, Within the next few years that aircraft may need a new paint > job, I hope it retains it's 303rd paint job. With a correct paint scheme of > course :) > Also does anyone know if Barksdale AFB still has a B-17G displayed in a > semi 303rd paint scheme? I remember a video called "A Queen Dies Hard" about > the Flying Fortress that has some footage of this A/C on outside display, > although it had the wrong letter codes on the fuselage it had the proper > late 44/45 style red border Triangle C on the tail. The silver 303rd B-17G > looked sharp though! > > Looking forward to seeing all of you in Baltimore, Dad (303rd 427th BTG) > and I will be there for the dinner and meeting on Friday the 8th and then we > will drive down to DC for the day on Saturday for the Arlington ceremony and > the Air & Space Museum. On a sad note Dad is just recovering from his second > surgery in six months for a tumor on his bladder, as I write this I am > waiting for a call from the doctor as to "Where we go from here". It's not a > happy situation, but the visiting nurse just removed his catheter this > morning (Dad called it his walk around bottle as only an 8th AF veteran can > relate!) and now he's running around like a teenager again. This will be his > first reunion besides the trip to Molesworth last year. I will have the > photo albums from or trips so those interested can see Molesworth, the > Hanger Dance and England again. > > Todd (A-637) > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 20:13:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #374 - 19 msgs In-Reply-To: <20010829174049.0B44B535C0@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <20010829191352.59064.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings to all and of all ages. I'm 41, soon to be a full Commander (O-5) in the Navy Reserve, and have to weigh in on the discussion vis my own generation. You folks who flew and fought in the War have said some rather disparaging things about my generation, and I have only this to say in response - You're pickle-barrel on target. I am constantly chagrined and humiliated when I see how that my generation as frittered away the heritage you fellows (and ladies) fought for. Moreover, I am doubly so when I consider how many of your comrads, all of them far too young, died in your struggles. My generation has proven itself to be a race of spoiled brats overall and miserable and unworthy recipients of your legacy. I can only say to you all how sorry I am that we've done such a shameful job of carrying on. We're not ALL that bad, granted, but the great majority are. Like all of you, I have lost friends in the nation's service. It's a terrible thing to stand at the grave of a friend in his mid-twenties and see his body lowered into the ground. I have lost five in my lifetime and this for me is hell. I cannot fathom losing that many in one day, much less a dozen. You are indeed the Greatest Generation, perhaps the greatest to live in the course of our past and future... Respectully, Chuck Golden --- 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 2. Re: Baltimore Reunion (Jprencher@aol.com) > 3. Reunion (Humphrey O'Leary) > 4. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Jprencher@aol.com) > 5. Re: TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER (Jprencher@aol.com) > 6. 1ST AMENDMENT (Maurice Paulk) > 7. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Sean Coppom) > 8. Re: targets (WCarter516@aol.com) > 9. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (VONDRA BURRELL) > 10. Missing evadees 1943 (Gordon L. Alton) > 11. The Greatest Generation (JJENKINSR@cs.com) > 12. Tunes (hoytwma2) > 13. Re:Talk digest,Vol 1 # 371, (Shaddoe2@aol.com) > 14. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > 15. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > 16. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Kevin Pearson) > 17. Re:The Greatest Generation, memory and the 1st > Amendment (Bill Jones) > 18. RED TRIANGLE ON THE WING. (Maurice Paulk) > 19. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:47:42 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > bill i liked your thoughts. spec > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:22:52 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Gary, I plan on arriving the evening of the 3rd and > leaving the 10th. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Humphrey O'Leary" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:41:38 -0700 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > My wife, Lavonne, and I are going to Baltimore and > are looking forward > to seeing you and Susan. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Transitional//EN"> > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > name=3DGENERATOR> > > > >

My wife, Lavonne, > and I are going to = > Baltimore and=20 > are looking forward

to seeing you and = > Susan.

> > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:15:57 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express > my thoughts as well as > you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing > you say except the shape > of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not > sure about that last one. > I look forward to talking to you in DC > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:26 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Maurice, The red triangle C was on the wings when I > was there in 44. > Jack > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: "Maurice Paulk" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:38:51 -0500 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] 1ST AMENDMENT > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill Heller--Praise the Lord - and pass the > ammunition---- --You have called > a spade a spade. > I don't believe even the younger generation of > modern warriors really have > an inkling of how you combat personnel > could cope. My son a 'Nam vet told me "You make > peace with God and try to > stay alive." He died of Lung Cancer at the age of 50 > on August 26 this > year.----- This may be digressin but I had to say > what I thought.-- > MAURICE PAULK > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:30:26 -0600 > From: Sean Coppom > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dear Bill- > > I have to say that I am disappointed in the > opinion you hold of my > generation. Of course our views our tempered with > the "mores and > beliefs of today." We were born when we were born > and are shaped by > what the world is today. However, to say that we > can't understand the > answers to our questions when they are given by the > Greatest Generation > is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I > am trying hard to > understand what went on and what it felt like to > grow up in your > generation, for no other reason then to know what my > grandpa and all you > guys went through. The very fact that I am here > trying === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 22:40:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:40:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] In Response Message-ID: <004e01c130d3$335c3c40$4b9a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C130A9.498A6F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As ROMG on Kuykendalls crew, I often tuned to WWV in DC to get a time = check for the Navigator while on a mission. I cannot remember getting = any music stations, at least in ETO. Too busy handing out sandwiches after getting in safe territory. BTW, A good source for publications is George A Peterson, Nat'l = Capital,Historical Sales, Inc., Springfiels, VA. 22150. Tel. = 703-569-6663. I have a reprint of Pilot Training Manualfor the Flying Fortress. It = will tell you all you want to know about the B-17. Fory ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C130A9.498A6F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As ROMG on Kuykendalls crew, I often = tuned to=20 WWV in DC to get a time check for the Navigator while on a mission. I = cannot=20 remember getting any music stations, at least in ETO.

Too busy handing out sandwiches after = getting in=20 safe territory.

BTW, A good source for publications is = George A=20 Peterson, Nat'l Capital,Historical Sales, Inc., Springfiels, VA. = 22150. =20 Tel. 703-569-6663.

I have a reprint of Pilot Training = Manualfor the=20 Flying Fortress. It will tell you all you want to know about the=20 B-17.

Fory

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C130A9.498A6F20-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 22:37:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:37:30 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT Message-ID: <8b.bb2cf98.28beba9a@aol.com> kevin ,well said. cheers. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 22:46:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:46:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:The Greatest Generation, memory and the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <146.b766fb.28bebca5@aol.com> bill jones, i landed at dow field ,bangor ,me. on flight to england and snow storm delayed our departure. a dept. store owner there had all of us 10 to his home for dinner. i ,as you just cited, do not remember that person or store's name today. read your re4marks with interest and know all will take to heart and lets get our postings active across our veterans'' memories spectrum real soon. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 23:35:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:35:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Generations Message-ID: <001e01c130da$d8145720$56df7ad1@markdonn> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C130B9.5040EDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some perspective. In the early 1970s I saw a black man interviewed on TV. He was well = over 100. He was one of the last black=20 people alive who was born into slavery. He was asked what he thought of = the younger generation. He said that they were going to Hell in a handbasket and had been for = the last hundred years.=20 Mark Donnelly Vietnam Veteran 60 years old ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C130B9.5040EDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some perspective.

In the early 1970s I saw a black man interviewed on = TV. =20 He was well over 100. He was one of the last black =

people alive who was born into slavery. He was = asked=20 what he thought of the younger generation.

He said that they were going to Hell in a = handbasket and=20 had been for the last hundred years.

Mark Donnelly

Vietnam Veteran

60 years old

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C130B9.5040EDC0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 19:32:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:32:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D-Day Message-ID: Hello all! How many of you guys were flying that day and what target(s) did you hit? How many missions did you fly on D-Day. Did you see any German fighters going or returning? Thanks! Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:59:01 -0700 > >Thanks, Jack, you old and great comrade ... > >WCH > >Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express my thoughts as well >as > > you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing you say except the >shape > > of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not sure about that last >one. > > I look forward to talking to you in DC > > Best Wishes. > > Jack Rencher > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 20:04:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:04:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Request for the former bombardiers Message-ID: Hi Dave! I know I would be interested in all of the questions you pose to the bombardiers, and I am sure I am not alone. Could you please post these questions to this forum? Thanks! Kevin >From: "Tooley, Dave" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "303rd Email List (E-mail)" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Request for the former bombardiers >Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:34:25 -0500 > >Former bombardiers, >My uncle served as a bombardier and I have good information about him as >far >as dates and places. But his real life experiences are a mystery. I was >wondering if any you would be willing to field some occasional questions >for >me about life as a bombardier via off-forum emails. Things such as >training, how/why you became a bombardier, day to day life at Molesworth, >mission day responsibilities, etc. I would like to get an idea of what my >uncle may have experienced in the last year of his life. > >I promise not to drive you crazy with emails. But when a question comes up >I'd like to go directly to someone with a similar background. My email >address is: dtooley@allstate.com . > >Thanks!! > >Dave Tooley > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 23:10:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:10:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #374 - 19 msgs Message-ID: Amen, Chuck! Kevin >From: Chuck Golden >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #374 - 19 msgs >Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) > >Greetings to all and of all ages. I'm 41, soon to be >a full Commander (O-5) in the Navy Reserve, and have >to weigh in on the discussion vis my own generation. >You folks who flew and fought in the War have said >some rather disparaging things about my generation, >and I have only this to say in response - You're >pickle-barrel on target. I am constantly chagrined >and humiliated when I see how that my generation as >frittered away the heritage you fellows (and ladies) >fought for. Moreover, I am doubly so when I consider >how many of your comrads, all of them far too young, >died in your struggles. My generation has proven >itself to be a race of spoiled brats overall and >miserable and unworthy recipients of your legacy. I >can only say to you all how sorry I am that we've done >such a shameful job of carrying on. We're not ALL >that bad, granted, but the great majority are. Like >all of you, I have lost friends in the nation's >service. It's a terrible thing to stand at the grave >of a friend in his mid-twenties and see his body >lowered into the ground. I have lost five in my >lifetime and this for me is hell. I cannot fathom >losing that many in one day, much less a dozen. You >are indeed the Greatest Generation, perhaps the >greatest to live in the course of our past and >future... > >Respectully, >Chuck Golden > > > > >--- 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > visit > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > 'help' to > > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > > is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (IBSPEC@aol.com) > > 2. Re: Baltimore Reunion (Jprencher@aol.com) > > 3. Reunion (Humphrey O'Leary) > > 4. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Jprencher@aol.com) > > 5. Re: TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER (Jprencher@aol.com) > > 6. 1ST AMENDMENT (Maurice Paulk) > > 7. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Sean Coppom) > > 8. Re: targets (WCarter516@aol.com) > > 9. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (VONDRA BURRELL) > > 10. Missing evadees 1943 (Gordon L. Alton) > > 11. The Greatest Generation (JJENKINSR@cs.com) > > 12. Tunes (hoytwma2) > > 13. Re:Talk digest,Vol 1 # 371, (Shaddoe2@aol.com) > > 14. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > > 15. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > > 16. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (Kevin Pearson) > > 17. Re:The Greatest Generation, memory and the 1st > > Amendment (Bill Jones) > > 18. RED TRIANGLE ON THE WING. (Maurice Paulk) > > 19. Re: FIRST AMENDMENT (William Heller) > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 1 > > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:47:42 EDT > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > bill i liked your thoughts. spec > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 2 > > From: Jprencher@aol.com > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:22:52 EDT > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Baltimore Reunion > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > Gary, I plan on arriving the evening of the 3rd and > > leaving the 10th. > > Jack > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 3 > > From: "Humphrey O'Leary" > > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:41:38 -0700 > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reunion > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > My wife, Lavonne, and I are going to Baltimore and > > are looking forward > > to seeing you and Susan. > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20 > > Content-Type: text/html; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > Transitional//EN"> > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > name=3DGENERATOR> > > > > > > > >

My wife, Lavonne, > > and I are going to = > > Baltimore and=20 > > are looking forward

> >

to seeing you and = > > Susan.

> > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C12FCF.8B9C5A20-- > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 4 > > From: Jprencher@aol.com > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:15:57 EDT > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express > > my thoughts as well as > > you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing > > you say except the shape > > of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not > > sure about that last one. > > I look forward to talking to you in DC > > Best Wishes. > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 5 > > From: Jprencher@aol.com > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:26 EDT > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] TRIANGLE C-- WALLPAER > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Maurice, The red triangle C was on the wings when I > > was there in 44. > > Jack > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 6 > > From: "Maurice Paulk" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:38:51 -0500 > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] 1ST AMENDMENT > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Bill Heller--Praise the Lord - and pass the > > ammunition---- --You have called > > a spade a spade. > > I don't believe even the younger generation of > > modern warriors really have > > an inkling of how you combat personnel > > could cope. My son a 'Nam vet told me "You make > > peace with God and try to > > stay alive." He died of Lung Cancer at the age of 50 > > on August 26 this > > year.----- This may be digressin but I had to say > > what I thought.-- > > MAURICE PAULK > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:30:26 -0600 > > From: Sean Coppom > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Dear Bill- > > > > I have to say that I am disappointed in the > > opinion you hold of my > > generation. Of course our views our tempered with > > the "mores and > > beliefs of today." We were born when we were born > > and are shaped by > > what the world is today. However, to say that we > > can't understand the > > answers to our questions when they are given by the > > Greatest Generation > > is the fundamental problem I see in this forum. I > > am trying hard to > > understand what went on and what it felt like to > > grow up in your > > generation, for no other reason then to know what my > > grandpa and all you > > guys went through. The very fact that I am here > > trying >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger >http://im.yahoo.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Aug 29 23:49:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:49:28 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Request for the former bombardiers References: Message-ID: <000d01c130dc$dd67f2c0$4339a2d1@h4k3401> All of us who were not there ( and those that were, also) would like to see the questions and answers. That's why we're in this talk group. Dave Young -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ----- Original Message ----- > Former bombardiers, > My uncle served as a bombardier and I have good information about him as far > as dates and places. But his real life experiences are a mystery. I was > wondering if any you would be willing to field some occasional questions for > me about life as a bombardier via off-forum emails. Things such as > training, how/why you became a bombardier, day to day life at Molesworth, > mission day responsibilities, etc. I would like to get an idea of what my > uncle may have experienced in the last year of his life. > > I promise not to drive you crazy with emails. But when a question comes up > I'd like to go directly to someone with a similar background. . > Thanks!! > Dave Tooley From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 00:29:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Abigail Hourwich & Mark Donnelly) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:29:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D-Day References: Message-ID: <000c01c130e2$80679a20$7ce17ad1@markdonn> My Uncle Jim flew on D-Day. He was a waist gunner. Walter Cronkite was on the plane. The target was Caen. However, as it was clouded over they did not drop. He told me that broke down crying from stress that day during the mission. Did not know why except it was near the end of his tour. He didn't think that anybody could tell. Mark Donnelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] D-Day > Hello all! How many of you guys were flying that day and what target(s) did > you hit? How many missions did you fly on D-Day. Did you see any German > fighters going or returning? > Thanks! > Kevin > > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] FIRST AMENDMENT > >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:59:01 -0700 > > > >Thanks, Jack, you old and great comrade ... > > > >WCH > > > >Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Bill Heller, Bless you. I just wish I could express my thoughts as well > >as > > > you express my thoughts. I agree with every thing you say except the > >shape > > > of B17 wings and getting "on the step" and I'm not sure about that last > >one. > > > I look forward to talking to you in DC > > > Best Wishes. > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 02:57:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jack) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where to stay near Molesworth References: <20010829174048.D6B86535BC@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000e01c130f7$10036d80$79b74e0c@jack> Hello all.. I may be going to Londen at Christmas time and may also try and stay a few days in the Molesworth area. Does anyone have any sugestions as to a nice place to stay in the Molesworth area? Thanks Jack T. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 03:36:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:36:19 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tunes Message-ID: <15.19d6fa2e.28bf00a3@aol.com> As far as I know we always used the radios when flying combat for business. We monitored about 7 frequencies as I remember for messages and orders and so we knew what was going on. The pilots had 2 each and the radio operator had 3 more. The radio operator had all 7 available. One was Morris code. The pilots had 4 VHF channels they could listen to. We had a radio compass that would pick up most all stations including commercial broadcast. We only used it for navigation but one could listen to a radio station it if you want too, but no one should ever do that on a mission I hope. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 03:37:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:37:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aerial Photographs of Molesworth and Other Areas in England Message-ID: <71.11eef66c.28bf0103@cs.com> --part1_71.11eef66c.28bf0103_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some may find this of interest. Quite by accident I have discovered a web site which has online aerial views of Cambridgeshire and many of the metropolitan areas of Great Britain. These aerial photographs may be seen at www.multimap.com/photoinfo.html. To locate the former airfield at Molesworth you must first go to the previously mentioned web site and input the 'post code' for Molesworth in the appropriate place. The 'post code' for Molesworth is PE28 0QF. Once the 'post code' has been entered you should see a low level aerial view of downtown Molesworth. To view the former airfield I recommend 'zooming out' and moving north (up). You should be able to roam where you please. Keep in mind that the aerial photos currently available are limited to Cambridgeshire. You cannot venture too far north or west of Molesworth. I have been on a virtual tour of the many of the former 8AF Airfields. The fields I have viewed include Molesworth, Alconbury, Kimbolton, Bassingbourn, Glatton, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, Duxford, and Bottisham. All of these airfields are located in Cambridgeshire. Other 'post codes' that have proven useful are CB2 3AR for the town center of Cambridge and SG8 6LZ for Bassingbourn. The American Cemetery at Madingley is easily found by locating the town center of Cambridge and moving to the west along the road which leads to St Neots. The Madingley Cemetery stands out quite visibly from the surrounding terrain. It does help to have a detailed map of the region handy. Perhaps some of our English friends can assist with a more complete listing of 'post codes'. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_71.11eef66c.28bf0103_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Some may find this of interest. Quite by accident I have discovered a
web site which has online aerial views of Cambridgeshire and many of the
metropolitan areas of Great Britain. These aerial photographs may be seen at
www.multimap.com/photoinfo.html. To locate the former airfield at Molesworth
you must first go to the previously mentioned web site and input the 'post
code' for Molesworth in the appropriate place. The 'post code' for
Molesworth is PE28 0QF. Once the 'post code' has been entered you should see
a low level aerial view of downtown Molesworth. To view the former airfield
I recommend 'zooming out' and moving north (up). You should be able to roam
where you please. Keep in mind that the aerial photos currently available
are limited to Cambridgeshire. You cannot venture too far north or west of
Molesworth.
      I have been on a virtual tour of the many of the former 8AF Airfields.
The fields I have viewed include Molesworth, Alconbury, Kimbolton,
Bassingbourn, Glatton, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, Duxford, and Bottisham. All
of these airfields are located in Cambridgeshire.
      Other 'post codes' that have proven useful are CB2 3AR for the town
center of Cambridge and SG8 6LZ for Bassingbourn. The American Cemetery at
Madingley is easily found by locating the town center of Cambridge and moving
to the west along the road which leads to St Neots. The Madingley Cemetery
stands out quite visibly from the surrounding terrain. It does help to have
a detailed map of the region handy.
      Perhaps some of our English friends can assist with a more complete
listing of 'post codes'.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_71.11eef66c.28bf0103_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 03:50:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:50:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:The Greatest Generation, memory and the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <12c.3d797a4.28bf03f9@aol.com> Bill Jones, You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I liked what you had to say. It was interesting and enlightening. As for me you can ask me anything you want too and I will try to answer it as best II can. It amuses me when someone asks me questions and then suggests several possible answers. Most of those answers are completely off base. I have a perfect memory. I can't remember anything I have ever forgotten Ask Away, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 10:50:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:50:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: TUNES Message-ID: Yes, I hadn't thought about it but we must have had a radio in most of the huts. We heard lots of popular music, like blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover and I'll get by. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. There were two or three very popular girls that sang some very popular songs. I am a poor one to answer this question as I don't listen to music much. There were some propaganda programs I like to listen to too. We had all kinds of people there so I sure some of them were musicians and I'm sure we had music in the clubs. When I had spare time I fixed things, studied, wrote a few letters or went over and worked on the airplanes. We walked every where we went on our own. If there was two or more we talked I supposed. If I was alone I'm sure I whistled. I still do. Some had a bicycle. I did and rode it around within 40 miles or so when I had a day off. I do not smoke, drink or party much so I am kinda of a stick in the mud and somewhat of a loner. I half soled shoes, cut hair, censured mail, played poker at the club and spent some time with the English farmers and mechanics. Also test flew airplanes after repairs, slow timed new engines, took new crews up for formation training and did some first aid and counseling when needed. I went to London once on a 48 hour pass, but for me once was enough. Keep in mind, we couldn't listen to the commercial radio when flying, At least the pilots, The planes were very noisy and we wore ear phones for the intercom and necessary communication with the other planes the tower and etc. I hope this gives you a satisfactory answer. Be aware, I am only speaking for me. I am completely different from you normal people. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 14:47:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:47:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Moleworth Hangar Message-ID: One more question today: When I visited Molesworth a couple of years ago, one of the officers in the remaining hangar, I think it was Phil Berube, showed me a picture of the wall of the remaining hanger before it was painted over. It showed hundreds of silhouettes of B-17s standing for the number of Fortresses repaired. Does anyone have the actual number of Forts repaired in that hangar? Does anyone remember this wall. What a tribute to the ground crews. Too bad it was painted over! Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 16:13:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:13:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where to stay near Molesworth Message-ID: Jack T.: Probably the neatest thing you could do is stay at the former base! Gordy Alton is staying there when we visit Bassingbourn in October. Here's what Gordy sent me in an e-mail: "Jay Haskins, whose wife is based at Molesworth, is looking after the billeting for that first night there. Seems like he has it in hand." Gordy is a part of this forum, I would write to him and see how he did it - gordy@saltspring.com. If the base sounds to primitive, Molesworth is about 32 miles from Cambridge and 27.2 miles from Bedford. Take a look at this website: http://www.smoothhound.co.uk/. This is an excellent site for finding hotels in the UK. Personally, I like the Gonville Place in Cambridge, a middle of the road hotel owned by Best Western. The address is: Gonville Place Hotel (A Best Western Hotel) Gonville Place Cambridge CB1 1LY Phone: 011.44.1223.366611 Fax: 011.44.1223.315470 I have also been in the Arundel House Hotel in Cambridge and it is less expensive than Gonville Place, but is still very nice. I've never stayed in a hotel in Bedford. Hope this helps! Kevin >From: "Jack" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Where to stay near Molesworth >Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:01 -0400 > >Hello all.. > >I may be going to Londen at Christmas time and may also try and stay a few >days in the Molesworth area. >Does anyone have any sugestions as to a nice place to stay in the >Molesworth >area? > >Thanks > >Jack T. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 18:00:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:00:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] D-Day Statistics Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DC3@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Here's some D-Day box scores... we won the game in extra innings. The 8th AAF dispatched 11000 aircraft over southern England on June 6th, boosting the world wide total to a record never recorded since the beginning of aviation! That day the following aircraft were operating 882 B-17's (659 effective) and 839 B-24's (455 effective). They dropped 3205.0 tons of bombs! Fourteen B-17's were damaged no MIA's with 1 crewmen KIA and 1 WIA. Three B24's went MIA. for a loss of 11 B-24 crewmen KIA and 1 wounded and 13 MIA. That's just the totals for 8th Air Force mission number 394!!!! Totals for the day.... 2587 Bombers (1622 effective). 555 P38's, 414 P47's, 750 P-51's for a total of 1719 fighters (9th Air Force included) and 466 P-51's and P-47's operated in a Fighter / Bomber role. There was a reported 2185 fighters in the air during the day! That's a total of 4772 planes dispatched from England for the 8th Air Army Force that day!!! Fighters claimed 26-0-8 with 4-0-9 on the ground, with a loss of 25 fighters MIA, 14 damaged and 1 KIA and 1 MIA. The total tonnage dropped in the Fighter / bomber role is unknown. The 56th fighter group flew the most missions that day... 11! Most flew 6 to 10. The 355th Fighter group had the most reported kills at 9. Records show 2362 B-17 and B-24 Bomber A/C operated over enemy territory with the loss of 1 B-24 from the 487th BG shot down by enemy fire. Add in all the C-47's, B-26's, B-25's etc. AND THEN the RAF and you have quite a show! The 446th BG holds the honor of "First over the beach head" for the 8th. And don't forget the head of the 8th AF, Lt. Gen. Jimmy Doolittle was over the invasion himself that day for an hour and a half observing it all from his P-38! Todd (A-637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 17:02:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:02:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: D-Day Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DC2@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> Kevin (And all) In reference to your D-Day Mission request, my Father said he flew two raids that day. The 303rd CD lists him for the third one that day.... They took off around 17:30 hrs on 303rd Mission #174 and Dads 5th, he flew as a BTG on B-17G 42-32027 "Betty Jane". They were in the C High Group. They dropped about 96 bombs into an open field near the bridge at Conde-Sur-Noireau, France. I hope the US Army needed some foxholes :) They had a fantastic view of the landings that day, he still has the small handout that was released by Eisenhower to the troops involved. They touched down at Molesworth about 23:00 hours that night, almost a six hour round trip and a night landing to cap things off! He awoke the next day assigned to a "Spare" A/C on the days mission back to France, the "Spare" A/C B-17G 42-10680 returned to Molesworth. He has a vivid recollection seeing a bridge that was knocked out with a train load of Nazi tanks spilling into the void. Anyone recall seeing this event? It was around D-Day. Molesworth as with most of England was moving at it's fastest pace supporting the invasion, the busiest it ever was during the whole war I imagine. During our visit a couple of years ago we stopped in a small town between East Anglia and London, they had photos of all the equipment stored in and around the tiny village waiting to depart for the British ports for the invasion. Thousands of troops, vehicles, tanks and supplies crammed in every conceivable spot around this poor little town so far from the coast. What a sight it must have been when all these little towns shed their burden and it all funneled into the Channel...Books could be written on the build up for the invasion itself I bet! Todd (A-637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Aug 30 23:51:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:51:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] new images Message-ID: <200108302252.f7UMq4P03422@ns1.megalink.net> I've uploaded several new pictures to the internet. They are not yet linked into my web page, but can be viewed at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/newimage.html Most are from Aug 27 1944, Jan 7, Jan 10, Feb 3, Feb 14, and Feb 16 1945 missions. Also a picture of an officer's party. They take quite a while to download. Sorry. Bill Jones Sweden Maine N3JLQ wejones@megalink.net htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones TVRO,Space,Ham radio,WX htpp://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html B-17/wwii/303rdBG From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 03:01:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:01:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] new images In-Reply-To: <200108302252.f7UMq4P03422@ns1.megalink.net> Message-ID: <3B8E8D71.218.15D7284@localhost> > I've uploaded several new pictures to the internet. They are > not yet linked into my web page, but can be viewed at: > http://wejones.ftdata.com/newimage.html Those are some great shots. I may *steal* a couple for the web page later on. That 360th Officers party sure is clear. Maybe someone (Bill Heller) can identify the people. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 04:09:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:09:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Molesworth Hangar Message-ID: <16c.12236f.28c059fb@cs.com> --part1_16c.12236f.28c059fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin, I believe the 303rd web site has a photo of the wall or one of the walls you mention. This photo may be seen at www.303rdbga.com/sp-scoreboard.html. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_16c.12236f.28c059fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin,
      I believe the 303rd web site has a photo of the wall or one of the
walls you mention. This photo may be seen at
www.303rdbga.com/sp-scoreboard.html.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_16c.12236f.28c059fb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 04:54:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:54:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aerial Photographs of Molesworth and Other Areas of England Message-ID: <165.12237b.28c06467@cs.com> --part1_165.12237b.28c06467_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some may find this of interest. Quite by accident I have discovered a web site which has online aerial views of Cambridgeshire and many of the metropolitan areas of Great Britain. These aerial photographs may be seen at www.multimap.com/photoinfo.html. To locate the former airfield at Molesworth you must first go to the previously mentioned web site and input the 'post code' for Molesworth in the appropriate place. The 'post code' for Molesworth is PE28 0QF. Once the 'post code' has been entered you should see a low level view of downtown Molesworth. To view the former airfield I recommend zooming out and moving north (up). You should be able to roam where you please. Keep in mind that the aerial photos currently available are limited to Cambridgeshire. You cannot venture too far to the north or west of Molesworth. I have been on a virtual tour of many of the former 8AF airfields. The fields that I have viewed include Molesworth, Alconbury, Kimbolton, Bassingbourn, Glatton, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, Duxford, and Bottisham. All of these fields are located in Cambridgeshire. Other 'post codes' that have proven useful are CB2 3AR for the town center of Cambridge and SG8 6LZ for Bassingbourn. The American Cemetery at Madingley is easily found by locating the town center of Cambridge and moving to the west along the road which leads to St Neots. Madingley Cemetery stands out quite visibly from the surrounding terrain. To view the airfield at Bassingbourn you must 'zoom out' to 1:50000. The pattern of the airfield should then be apparent to the west (left). It does help to have a detailed map of the region handy. Perhaps some of our English friends can assist with a more complete listing of 'post codes'. Best Wishes, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_165.12237b.28c06467_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      Some may find this of interest. Quite by accident I have discovered a
web site which has online aerial views of Cambridgeshire and many of the
metropolitan areas of Great Britain. These aerial photographs may be seen at
www.multimap.com/photoinfo.html. To locate the former airfield at Molesworth
you must first go to the previously mentioned web site and input the 'post
code' for Molesworth in the appropriate place. The 'post code' for
Molesworth is PE28 0QF. Once the 'post code' has been entered you should see
a low level view of downtown Molesworth. To view the former airfield I
recommend zooming out and moving north (up). You should be able to roam where
you please. Keep in mind that the aerial photos currently available are
limited to Cambridgeshire. You cannot venture too far to the north or west
of Molesworth.
      I have been on a virtual tour of many of the former 8AF airfields.
The fields that I have viewed include Molesworth, Alconbury, Kimbolton,
Bassingbourn, Glatton, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, Duxford, and Bottisham. All
of these fields are located in Cambridgeshire.
      Other 'post codes' that have proven useful are CB2 3AR for the town
center of Cambridge and SG8 6LZ for Bassingbourn. The American Cemetery at
Madingley is easily found by locating the town center of Cambridge and moving
to the west along the road which leads to St Neots. Madingley Cemetery
stands out quite visibly from the surrounding terrain. To view the airfield
at Bassingbourn you must 'zoom out' to 1:50000. The pattern of the airfield
should then be apparent to the west (left). It does help to have a detailed
map of the region handy.
      Perhaps some of our English friends can assist with a more complete
listing of 'post codes'.

Best Wishes,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_165.12237b.28c06467_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 14:40:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:40:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Molesworth Hangar Message-ID: Thanks, John, for that information! Have you started Other Losses yet? I never heard if you received the book. Kevin >From: JJENKINSR@cs.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The Molesworth Hangar >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:09:47 EDT > >Kevin, > I believe the 303rd web site has a photo of the wall or one of the >walls you mention. This photo may be seen at >www.303rdbga.com/sp-scoreboard.html. > >Best Wishes, > >John A. Jenkins > >6910 Old Redmond Road >Redmond, WA 98052 USA > >Phone (425) 885-0595 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 19:04:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:04:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] In Response Message-ID: <29.1a12ecff.28c12bc0@aol.com> Hi Fory: Wonder if you knew Bob Dahl, Augusta, GA who was ROMG on Fink's Crew. Last shook hands in Mar.'45 and never heard again...just wondering. Cheers, Bob Hand (B, Fink's Crew) Roger K. was good friend. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 17:47:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:47:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: I posted a message a while ago about a whining noise I heard when the B-17 was taxing and many of you took a stab at guessing what it was. After that series of messages, I wrote to the Gulf Coast Wing of the Confederate Air Force and received this reply from one of the Texas Raiders pilots, Phil Covington: "You were right-on in your assessment of the sound during taxi.... that is the hydraulic pump motor cycling in an attempt to maintain 600-800 psi pressure in the accumulator system which operates the brakes and the cowl flaps. There is an emergency pump handle to the co-pilot's right which can be used in the event a of motor failure." I thought you all might like to know. The Texas Raiders is now on the airshow circuit and is giving rides for a price of $350. If you would like to know more or see the schedule, go to: www.gulfcoastwing.org. Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 17:17:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:17:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: I posted a message a while ago about a whining noise I heard when the B-17 was taxing and many of you took a stab at guessing what it was. After that series of messages, I wrote to the Gulf Coast Wing of the Confederate Air Force and received this reply from one of the Texas Raiders pilots, Phil Covington: "You were right-on in your assessment of the sound during taxi.... that is the hydraulic pump motor cycling in an attempt to maintain 600-800 psi pressure in the accumulator system which operates the brakes and the cowl flaps. There is an emergency pump handle to the co-pilot's right which can be used in the event a of motor failure." I thought you all might like to know. The Texas Raiders is now on the airshow circuit and is giving rides for a price of $350. If you would like to know more or see the schedule, go to: www.gulfcoastwing.org. Cheers! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 20:18:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:18:37 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Forts Going out (From Britain) Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5DC5@ner-msg06.wireless.attws.com> My grandmother snipped this poem out 57 years ago, this appeared in a newspaper dated Sunday July 22, 1944. Her son's crew had buzzed their new silver B-17G low over her house in April en-route to England, they all saw her waving a sheet on his front porch on the second pass at treetop level... now he was flying combat missions in the E.T.O. "Somewhere in England" is all she knew. A WEEK OF VERSE Forts Going Out (From Britain) This poem was written in tribute to the flying heroes of the American Air Forces by an (unknown) R.A.F. pilot. TODAY I watched the Forts go out to their great hazards Rising in terrible flocks from the green English meadows, Mounting and circling like huge birds, like buzzards, While the hedgerows flinches fled from their flying shadows. They filled the still air with throbbing and thunderous clamor As I stood and watched by the gate into Jacobs Lane, And I though there go Texas, Oregon, Oklahoma, Michigan, Massachusetts, Vermont, Florida, Maine, High-hearted out of England heart toward their grim missions. In perilous skies rising from the green English land ---- And I watched them till their great Flock became the size of a mans hand. I watched, and my heartlifted, while the sky throbbed and thundered. And slowly the quiet crept back to field and farm And the forts were as small as a gaggle of geese, as the white fronted Heralds of wild winds, harbingers of storm. And now I waits one waits for a homecommer. Till they, who are close to our hearts, Come back again. To the heart of England, Texas, and Oklahoma. Idaho, Oregon, Michigan, Vermont, Maine. ***************************** Todd (A-637) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Aug 31 21:37:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:37:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Forts Going out (From Britain) Message-ID: Great poen, Todd! Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Forts Going out (From Britain) >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:18:37 -0400 > >My grandmother snipped this poem out 57 years ago, this appeared in a >newspaper dated Sunday July 22, 1944. Her son's crew had buzzed their new >silver B-17G low over her house in April en-route to England, they all saw >her waving a sheet on his front porch on the second pass at treetop >level... >now he was flying combat missions in the E.T.O. "Somewhere in England" is >all she knew. > >A WEEK OF VERSE > >Forts Going Out >(From Britain) > >This poem was written in tribute to the flying heroes of the American Air >Forces by an (unknown) R.A.F. pilot. > >TODAY I watched the Forts go out to their great hazards >Rising in terrible flocks from the green English meadows, >Mounting and circling like huge birds, like buzzards, >While the hedgerows flinches fled from their flying shadows. > >They filled the still air with throbbing and thunderous clamor >As I stood and watched by the gate into Jacobs Lane, >And I though there go Texas, Oregon, Oklahoma, >Michigan, Massachusetts, Vermont, Florida, Maine, >High-hearted out of England heart toward their grim missions. > >In perilous skies rising from the green English land ---- >And I watched them till their great Flock >became the size of a mans hand. > >I watched, and my heartlifted, while the sky throbbed and thundered. >And slowly the quiet crept back to field and farm >And the forts were as small as a gaggle of geese, >as the white fronted Heralds of wild winds, harbingers of storm. > >And now I waits one waits for a homecommer. >Till they, who are close to our hearts, Come back again. >To the heart of England, Texas, and Oklahoma. >Idaho, Oregon, Michigan, Vermont, Maine. > >***************************** >Todd (A-637) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Aug 4 18:04:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 11:04:17 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tunes Message-ID: <002301c11d07$80333260$5718183f@hoytwma2> Jack, you mentioned that you slow timed engines. How long did it usually take to break an engine in? Where would you fly while slow tiiming? I take it there werent a lot of pilots in line to do slow timings was there? Where did you half-sole shoes at? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Aug 5 01:42:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (hoytwma2) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:42:51 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radios and Tunes Message-ID: <001f01c11d47$8f862020$bb18183f@hoytwma2> Maurice what kind of stuff did Broderick Crawford and Johnny Desmond do on the AAF network? I remember Broderick Crawford in the 50s as an actor (Highway Patrol). Do you think those crystals are still available now days? Seems that would be a good project for someone in my family. thanks Bill Hoyt