From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 00:58:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:58:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <2d.9a5efb3.27f7d71b@aol.com> Lloyd, When I used Darky or Darkie if I am remembering the name right and I think I am I was probably always 1000 ft or so and circling until I got a reply. They all used the same frequency but did not interfere with each other as they could only transmit 3 miles so if they were 5 miles apart they couldn't hear each other and if you were 4 miles away you couldn't hear them. When one answered you knew you were within 3 miles of his location. As low as we were our transmissions did not go very far. The people that manned those stations could tell the kind of a plane over their station in the fog by its sound. They could even tell if it was a B17 on 3 engines or a B25 or Bedford on one. They were sharp. If a German flew over they could track it as it flew over each station and report its course after it crossed 2 or 3 stations. I don't remember the name of the beacon we assembled on but it was 19 and one half miles west of our field. I think the 379th and 384th used the same radio beacon but we assembled at different altitudes of course. We could of course recognize our group by the excellent formation thanks mostly to Bill Heller. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 01:19:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:19:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <33.12de630d.27f7dc13@aol.com> Bill Jones, I don't remember the name of our Beacon but it was 19 and one half miles west of our station. As I remember we always use it to assemble as did the 384th and 379th. I think that was Kimbolton and Grafton-Underwood. when it was too foggy to let down in formation we used it to let down on also. I was there in 1944. I don't know about before or after. I was too young or in the hospital. Yes, I flirted with the Nurses but married a Hospital Dietitian. I was too ugly for the Nurses. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 01:39:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:39:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: Message-ID: <002601c0ba4c$8bf146a0$3ff833cf@richards> Kevin Darkie worked by using only low frequency transmitters in the planes to send a "Hello Darkie " message as the range of the transmission was limited to about ten miles your message would only be received by a couple or even one site . They would respond giving you an idea as to where you were. Understand? Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > I should probably know this, but have not seen this question in this forum. > What was the name of the Buncher Beacon the 303rd formed up on? The Buncher > at the 100th BG at Thorpe Abbotts was called Splasher 6. > > And do any of the pilots remember "Darkie?" This was a network of air > traffic controllers at the airfields in England, that would help lost > airplanes vector to a nearby airfield in bad weather. Can anyone tell me > how this worked? > > Thanks in advance, guys, for your help! > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 03:05:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:05:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie In-Reply-To: <33.12de630d.27f7dc13@aol.com> Message-ID: > Bill Jones, I don't remember the name of our Beacon but it was 19 and one > half miles west of our station. As I remember we always use it to assemble as > did the 384th and 379th. According to the web page in the history section at the 303rd site, that must have been Harrington, which if I read the map correctly must have been a B-24 base. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 06:21:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:21:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <2d.9a5efb3.27f7d71b@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0ba6b$a5f5f2c0$cb194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Jack. I think that my problem in understanding your reply is largely due to my ignorance in understanding radio frequencies. Before I ask again, I will try to learn something about that subject, and then, can formulate my question better. I appreciate the information you sent. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > Lloyd, When I used Darky or Darkie if I am remembering the name right and I > think I am I was probably always 1000 ft or so and circling until I got a > reply. They all used the same frequency but did not interfere with each > other as they could only transmit 3 miles so if they were 5 miles apart they > couldn't hear each other and if you were 4 miles away you couldn't hear them. > When one answered you knew you were within 3 miles of his location. As low > as we were our transmissions did not go very far. The people that manned > those stations could tell the kind of a plane over their station in the fog > by its sound. They could even tell if it was a B17 on 3 engines or a B25 or > Bedford on one. They were sharp. If a German flew over they could track it as > it flew over each station and report its course after it crossed 2 or 3 > stations. > > I don't remember the name of the beacon we assembled on but it was 19 and > one half miles west of our field. I think the 379th and 384th used the same > radio beacon but we assembled at different altitudes of course. We could of > course recognize our group by the excellent formation thanks mostly to Bill > Heller. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 08:03:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:03:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> LJG ... The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use of it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! However, enemy planes did attempt bombings and landings at certain of our aerdromes. Indeed, there were many "lighted" runways in many areas which were merely lights on the tops of TREES. in forests. There was no runway there. It was meant for the enemy should he so wish to either land on it or destroy it. The Brtish and the Allies (us) were constantly coming up with ideas and things to distract or otherwise mislead the enemy. After all, we were on a day-to-day learning curve since there was no "pattern" to follow in the conduct of the war. Take the oil thing, for example ... as the late General Galland told me personally, had our high command concentrated on OIL alone and the DELIVERY thereof, we MAY NOT HAVE HAD TO HAVE A D-DAY! But, you see, that is hindsight, with which we are all endowed as 20-20! I have a very dear friend, former Luftwaffe WW#2 pilot, who told me of his capture by the Allies while he was "protecting" the Munich Aerdrome ... with a pistol! I asked him in disbelief why, he, a Luftwaffe PILOT was on the ground with a pistol and he said to me, "Bill, we had hundreds of first line Fighter planes right there, BUT WE HAD NO FUEL!" Methinks one of the greatest Brit ideas was FIDO .... an acronym for Fog Invection Dispersal Operation. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Do you know how this system was fail-safe from enemy interlocution, Jack? > They seemed to know alot about your frequencies. If my information is > correct, the Germans often tried to lead you astray with false beacons. > Could the radio operator tell from the strength of the signal? I am glad > that it worked, but curious as to why it could not be interdicted. Thanks. > > Darkie transmitters would only reach 3 miles so you knew if > > anyone answered and they always did you were within 3 miles of their > station. > > It was a very simple system but it worked every time for me and I used it > > many times. It was a life saver. > > Jack Rencher. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 13:46:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 08:46:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: Lloyd, My knowledge of Radio is very limited, but I'll tell you what little I think I know. The frequency might be described as how close together they are one behind the other. We used what we called low frequency that as I remember was between 200 and 400 megacycle per second or maybe it was kilocycles but I don't think so. These frequencies followed the curvature of the earth. We used these in our old A N (dit da da dit) 4 course radio ranges. They would reach out about 200 miles but were full of static, fading out, split and bent beams and were very primitive compared to what we have now, especially in the mountains like Salt Lake City. We also used VHF (very high frequency) mostly for communications. I think we had 4 of them but there was no doubt more later. These went in a straight line so if you were very far away or very low they were over your head as they did not follow the curvature of the earth. Then there was medium frequency that I think was used mostly with Morris code with which you could communicate with London from San Francisco. There is a thing called the Kelly Heavyside layer up in the stratosphere someplace that reflects radio waves back down like a pool ball when it hits the edge of the pool table but it has waves and holes in it and is very unreliable and irratic.Now so much for the frequencies. Radio waves can be strong or weak. The distance they travel can be regulated by the power of the transmitter and I suppose by the size of the transmitting antenna. The English had barrage balloons around some cities with wire or chains hanging from them for the Germans to fly into. They had radios transmitters on them that reached out just a few miles to warn us. When we heard their signal we promptly executed a maneuver called a 180. I suppose the Germans knew these frequencies also so if they did the 180 also they didn't get to bomb the city. If that worked I guess they could have put out the signal and saved the costs of the balloons Lloyd I hope some radio man answers you, but if they don't this might be a beginning. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 17:31:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use of > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 17:41:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:41:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio frequencies Message-ID: <002401c0baca$8c6715a0$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Jack. Between yours and Bills explaination, I believe I have a working idea of why and how the beacon system worked. I might add that I am very glad is was available to you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 20:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 12:07:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was Hitler NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things may have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different ideas anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but it must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be followed by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > of > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 00:03:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:03:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> WCH, There seems no end of psychopaths that arise to positions of power, and are (incredibly enough) sustained by the very people they terrorize. Perhaps a good deal of the blame can be laid at the doorsteps of the "First" World goverments who through their Machiavellian self interest, and convoluted foreign policies abet many despots. Inevitably, it is the men and women in uniform who ultimately pay the price for Politians' bad judgement. I confess, you now have tweaked my curiousity anent "FIDO". May we discuss this topic? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was Hitler > NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things may > have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different ideas > anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. > Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but it > must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and > THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be followed > by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). > > I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > > of > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 03:33:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:33:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Bill Heller or WCH' I am dumb. What is FIDO? Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 04:01:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:01:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon to Websters. Best & Grins. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > Bill Heller or WCH' > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > Jack > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:13:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:13:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> LJG ... FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby trenches were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the aerdrome. The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane to land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added and there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, lighted and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. Finally the SBA (standard beam approach) was devised. This was the forerunner of the very successful ILS (instrument landing system) used today. And with radar used for positioning ONTO said ILS, it became even easier. At Molesworth, believe it or not we had an SBA installation. However, for the recovery of a returning Group after a mission, such was not used for it took too long. One had to locate oneself onto the SBA beam and using Outer and Inner markers and altitude restriction, perform an approach to and a landing on the runway. I completed an SBA Course at Molesworth with Mel Schulstad as my instructor/Check Pilot. I even received a little card saying I was so qualified. But this system was NO use for recovering a returning Group for the reasons I mentioned. When I went into the airline business post war, I used to fly a route into London which required us to fly a RANGE LEG to the Epsom Range, then position ourselves by doing a route THROUGH the Heathrow ILS course, do a procedure turn and THEN capture the Localizer of the ILS and fly THAT on the GLIDE SLOPE to a successful landing. I was doing this with a DC6 in 1949, breaking 200 foot ceilings and 500 METERS vizibility. How nice it was when radar came onto the scene and ground controllers could position us ON the ILS without all that positioning by ourselves. Time saver too. Also, airlines only used GCA in emergencies and at certain military fields ... due to the rule of airlines that command NOT be external, but HAD to remain in the cockpit. For years, PanAm owned and operated the only GCA at Gander, Newfoundland and charged airlines $135 for the use of same. This was a life-saver for the airlines as Gander was a normal stop on the early North Atlantic runs. Now they go non-stop from way inland of the US to Europe and do not need such way-stops. Hope this has aided you in further understanding the FIDO and what it led to. FIDO was only used in emergencies, as you can imagine ... due to the cost and TIME CONSUMING set up for the operation. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > WCH, There seems no end of psychopaths that arise to positions of power, > and are (incredibly enough) sustained by the very people they terrorize. > Perhaps a good deal of the blame can be laid at the doorsteps of the "First" > World goverments who through their Machiavellian self interest, and > convoluted foreign policies abet many despots. Inevitably, it is the men > and women in uniform who ultimately pay the price for Politians' bad > judgement. > I confess, you now have tweaked my curiousity anent "FIDO". May we discuss > this topic? Thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:07 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was > Hitler > > NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things > may > > have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different > ideas > > anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. > > Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but > it > > must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and > > THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be > followed > > by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). > > > > I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of > my > > > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. > The > > > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this > was > > > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you > said, > > > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more > strategic > > > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Heller > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy > use > > > of > > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:20:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:20:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AC81A11.93BC8B20@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... (A) You are NOT dumb! (B) FIDO (Fog Investion Dispersal Operation)is explained in a very recent note to Llolyd Grant and should be on the Chat Page now. If not, let me know and I will go over it. I only observed it twice in operation and then only on a night cross country when they were either testing it or practicing with it. I never had the occasion to use it myself. And, of course, if I observed it on a night cross country and SAW it, you can be assured there was no fog so they had to be testing it or practicing with it. Also, it made a helluva lot of smoke, which, in a sense, defeated its own purpose. BUT, it was sworn by by RAF boys who had to use it. And, with high power approach lighting systems and the runway itself cleared of the fog, it was a success for the times it was used. You can imagine that during war, the use of such LIGHTING was anathema and used ONLY in dire emergencies. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller or WCH' > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:23:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:23:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC81AC5.ADCF8E2A@attglobal.net> LJG ... As you can observe from my most recent missive to you, I WAS NOT HAVING A BIT OF FUN! I trust by now you know a little more about FIDO than just to feed him and take him for a walk now and then .... As for the term "invection" one must realize that there are several types of fog. Invection fog is one type. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal > operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon > to Websters. Best & Grins. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > Bill Heller or WCH' > > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 08:56:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 03:56:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <103.129570f.27f98ac8@aol.com> Thanks Bill Heller, After it was explained I was familiar with Rover whoopes FIDO I mean. I had just completely forgotten the name. I never used it but after you explained it I remember reading about it. in the good? old days. It seems I was always slow flying a new engine or some other job when we were stood down because of weather Our navigator and I worked out a system at Molesworth using the Gee Box with which we landed several times in absolute O O conditions. without getting killed once. We never ever even missed the runway but we could not taxi with it. We had to use the altimeter for glide slope so the last 20 feet was a bit hairy. It's a good thing we were expendable and we NEVER carried passengers like you did. Once we took the Engineering Officer as copilot. He was not a pilot but got the gear and flaps up and down real well. To hide his nervousness when we landed he started counting the bounces. When he got up to 6 or so I told him he just as well quit I was not going around. Bill I think you are the best thing that happened to the 303rd BG since Col. Stevens left and I'm glad we had Harry Gobrecht and Ed Miller there to fill in when you were having a nap. You know Hal Susskind kinda kept us on course too. Thank you Three. You make me glad I didn't get over there in P38s like I wanted too. Jack Rencher, Not near as good a pilot as he thinks he is. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 11:48:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (fox) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:48:15 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] talk programme Message-ID: <200104021110.f32BAlY97224@m3.worldnet.net> 2nd April 2001 Would you please REMOVE me from the talk show until further notice. many thanks ' James A Fox From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 14:29:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:29:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages Message-ID: This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing ethyl fluids – eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any difference in aerial combat? Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. >----- Original Message ----- >From: William Heller >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > LJG ... > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use >of > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 14:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:39:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields Message-ID: Here is a snipit I learned during my last trip across the pond. As we were traversing the countryside of East Anglia from one heavy bomber station to another, primarily on back country roads, we kept passing all of these bright yellow plastic poles sticking out of the ground, seemingly everywhere! I finally asked my driver, Ray Jude, a dedicated member of the East Anglian Aviation Society, what all those yellow poles were. Ray has done considerable research on the subject and said they marked the "petrol" lines to each aerodrome. In doing his research, he could not get the Crown to release any information about the location of these "petrol" lines. Even after 55 years, this information is still classified by the English Government. Do any of our UK friends have any additional information on this topic? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 15:37:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:37:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: Hay you all, I must have caught Hoof & Mouth decease last night. I didn't mean at all what it sounded like I said. Let me make this crystal clear. I really liked Col. Stevens. I should have said "Bill Heller was the greatest thing that happened to the 303rd since Col. Stevens was there" etc. I hope you can find it in your hearts to forgive me and not shoot me like the cows. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 15:39:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:39:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81AC5.ADCF8E2A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001001c0bb82$c04ba760$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, As ever your reply leaves nothing to doubt and imparts knowlege and understanding of the subject. Understandiing the theory behind FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a meteorological sense. The closest my old dictionary gets to defining the word is "invective" ( and you are welcome to toss a few my way, Bill). Thank you for the thorough treatment of FIDO and the SBA system. I am sure that it is also appreciated by everyone else who read it. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller . To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > As you can observe from my most recent missive to you, I WAS NOT HAVING A BIT > OF FUN! I trust by now you know a little more about FIDO than just to feed > him and take him for a walk now and then .... As for the term "invection" one > must realize that there are several types of fog. Invection fog is one type. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal > > operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon > > to Websters. Best & Grins. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > Bill Heller or WCH' > > > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > > > Jack > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 16:46:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:46:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] .FOG... was Re: Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie.... In-Reply-To: <001001c0bb82$c04ba760$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Understandiing the theory behind > FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a > meteorological sense. I'm not sure that it is obvious to me, but if it means the opposite of convection, I'd have to guess that it refers to fog that isn't moving with the wind, but rather collected in a low area. I guess it might have been easier for them to raise the temperature of the area and control the fog if the wind wasn't bringing in new fog to replace the old? Is this anything close? Fog has always interested me. I used to live about 5 miles from a river, and most mornings, it would be perfectly clear, until the fog lifted off the river and would then drift with the wind, and would hit us 5 miles away. We lived on a hill and could see it coming. We now live in an area with a lot of small lakes and ponds, and if you go to a high area you can tell where all the ponds are because of the fog that collects over them. And if you wait for the wind to kick up, it is interesting to watch it disturb the little pockets of fog. Although it is interesting to watch, I can't imagine what it would have been like to have to fly in the stuff. I am curious..... since the British flew at night, and you guys flew in the daytime, did the British have foggy conditions more often, or was the British pea soup just as common during the daytime? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 17:45:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:45:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <000f01c0bb94$5ae53aa0$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller's explaination of FIDO (not the dog) leads me to ask this somewhat related question: Can anyone tell us how frequently the oil had to be changed in those big Pratt and Whitneys? Hydraulic oil in the related systems? And, what was done with the waste, or used lubricants? (anent. burning of oil to dissipate ground fog). Was there a practical use for these depleted lubricants? It seems logical to assume that there would be great quantities of the stuff. Did the "Chemical" detachment assigned to the Group have responsibilites in this respect? I hope that some of the "silent majority" will be inspired to respond to this question, but as ever, I am grateful for any and all replies. LG. (now, I will shut up and listen). Cheers. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 18:50:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:50:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages References: Message-ID: <3AC8BBEE.EAC7674B@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Reur offer anent fuel ... I recall one time in a meeting (or critique?) the briefing officer mentioned that the Germans were using a horribly inferior grade of fuel. At that, some second lieutenant spoke up and said, "I don't care if they're putting aspirin tablets in water for fuel, they are gong fast enough to shoot us down!" True, the Germans did use an inferior grade of fuel, and this caused their engines to NOT last as long. But production was not the problem. As hisotry shows, they had hundreds and hundreds of first line planes at war's end, BUT HAD NO FUEL! Anmd this came from th horse's mouth, as it were. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure > an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," > you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing > ethyl fluids ? eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital > ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, > there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for > Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants > were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. > > Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used > 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, > especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any > difference in aerial combat? > > Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at > Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. > Kevin > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > > > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: William Heller > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > >of > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 18:58:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:58:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] .FOG... was Re: Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie.... References: Message-ID: <3AC8BDDC.97419B74@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Yes, there are different types of fog. To me, I care not WHAT type it is if it hampers my ability to make a landing. I recall many times, when going up to Travis AFB from the San Francisco area and the briefing WX fellow in the WX station said, "They have a little fog up there, but is in only Thule (Toolie) fog." ... I would say, "I do not care WHAT kind it is if it hamnpers my abiblity to approach and land!" As anyone who ever took a shower knows, whenever you introduce different temperature water (or air) to different temperatures, you will have fog. And THAT is why the bathroom steams up .... When we first moved to Half Moon Bay on the golf course, we had fog every morning, but as soon as more and more homes were built ... no fog! Of course not ... the temerature changed due to all these additional homes, and did not effect the air coming in off the Ocean.... And then there is fog in the brain, of which we all had experience at one time or another .... Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Understandiing the theory behind > > FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a > > meteorological sense. > > I'm not sure that it is obvious to me, but if it means the opposite of > convection, I'd have to guess that it refers to fog that isn't moving > with the wind, but rather collected in a low area. I guess it might > have been easier for them to raise the temperature of the area and > control the fog if the wind wasn't bringing in new fog to replace the > old? Is this anything close? > Fog has always interested me. I used to live about 5 miles from > a river, and most mornings, it would be perfectly clear, until the fog > lifted off the river and would then drift with the wind, and would hit > us 5 miles away. We lived on a hill and could see it coming. > We now live in an area with a lot of small lakes and ponds, and if > you go to a high area you can tell where all the ponds are because > of the fog that collects over them. And if you wait for the wind to > kick up, it is interesting to watch it disturb the little pockets of fog. > Although it is interesting to watch, I can't imagine what it would > have been like to have to fly in the stuff. > I am curious..... since the British flew at night, and you guys flew > in the daytime, did the British have foggy conditions more often, or > was the British pea soup just as common during the daytime? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 19:28:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:28:26 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages References: <3AC8BBEE.EAC7674B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3AC8C4C9.4AD50CC4@newsfactory.net> William: Quite right! Concerning German fuel and a/c production. Best...., Uwe William Heller schrieb: > Kevin ... > > Reur offer anent fuel ... I recall one time in a meeting (or critique?) the > briefing officer mentioned that the Germans were using a horribly inferior > grade of fuel. At that, some second lieutenant spoke up and said, "I don't care > if they're putting aspirin tablets in water for fuel, they are gong fast enough > to shoot us down!" > > True, the Germans did use an inferior grade of fuel, and this caused their > engines to NOT last as long. But production was not the problem. As hisotry > shows, they had hundreds and hundreds of first line planes at war's end, BUT > HAD NO FUEL! > > Anmd this came from th horse's mouth, as it were. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure > > an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," > > you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing > > ethyl fluids ? eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital > > ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, > > there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for > > Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants > > were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. > > > > Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used > > 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, > > especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any > > difference in aerial combat? > > > > Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at > > Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. > > Kevin > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > > > > > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > > >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > > >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > > >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > > >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > > >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: William Heller > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > > >of > > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 22:06:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:06:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: --part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought we'd add a bit of local knowledge! We live in Kettering!!! Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the west of Molesworth. It has been around since about 1066, when it was mentioned in the Domesday book. Kettering did have its military connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to London and the North of England. It became the temporary home for an US Army Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the 82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day. Of course, many 303rd personnel visited Kettering, and some stayed there - especially one at least who missed his bus back to the base one Christmas Eve. He knows who he is! The Lytham that was mentioned in connection with the railway pass will be a town called Lytham St. Annes, about 10 miles south of Blackpool, on the north west coast of England. We hope to see some of you in England this year - contrary to the newspapers etc., we are not "closed for business" due to various animal ailments - it is safe to come over, and to eat the food!!!!!! Regards Robin & Sue Beeby --part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought
we'd add a bit of local knowledge!    We live in Kettering!!!

Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the
west of Molesworth.  It has been around since about 1066, when it was
mentioned in the Domesday book.      Kettering did have its military
connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to
London and the North of England.  It became the temporary home for an US Army
Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the
82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day.

Of course, many 303rd personnel visited Kettering, and some stayed there -
especially one at least who missed his bus back to the base one Christmas
Eve.  He knows who he is!


The Lytham that was mentioned in connection with the railway pass will be a
town called Lytham St. Annes, about 10 miles south of Blackpool, on the north
west coast of England.

We hope to see some of you in England this year - contrary to the newspapers
etc., we are not "closed for business"  due to various animal ailments - it
is safe to come over, and to eat the food!!!!!!

Regards

Robin & Sue Beeby
--part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 22:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:23:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought > we'd add a bit of local knowledge! We live in Kettering!!! > > Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the > west of Molesworth. It has been around since about 1066, when it was > mentioned in the Domesday book. Kettering did have its military > connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to > London and the North of England. It became the temporary home for an US Army > Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the > 82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day. > Thanks for the info re Kettering. The RR warant I have was stamped by some office called the "RTO - US ARMY - Kettering" I don't know what RTO stands for, but I assume it must have been some travel office co-located with one of the organizations you mention above. The RR warant was for travel on the "LMS" railway company. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 02:31:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:31:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you
encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 02:57:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:57:45 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's In-Reply-To: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402155745.008a6260@ilhawaii.net> Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:38:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:38:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil cooler and back into the oil tank. As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of the same engines. Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never saw any of it leave while I was there. I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. Keep the peace Lloyd Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: Thor: Yes we saw them both a bit in 1944. They were so fast they scared the pants off me. I can't speak for everyone else, but they never caused our crew any problems. A Me 262 fired 2 rockets at us once from about a 1000 yards but we could see them coming. We pulled up and they went (the rockets) under us. Other than seeing them a few times that is the only experience I ever had with them. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:51:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's Message-ID: --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said he could see sparks flying out of the back. Terry Lucas --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born
in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight
engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought
the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said he
could see sparks flying out of the back.
Terry Lucas --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:59:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:59:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's Message-ID: --part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Thor542086@aol.com writes: > Subj: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's > Date: 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time > From: Thor542086@aol.com > Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > Reply-to: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > To: jimwall@ihawaii.net > CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > > > > Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born > in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight > engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought > the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said > he > could see sparks flying out of the back. > Terry Lucas > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com> > Received: from rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com > [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 > Apr 2001 22:54:13 -0500 > Received: from pairlist.net (pairlist.net [216.92.1.92]) by > rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:54:07 -0400 > Received: from pairlist.net (localhost.pair.com [127.0.0.1]) > by pairlist.net (Postfix) with ESMTP > id A08EA5385E; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:54:06 -0400 (EDT) > Delivered-To: 303rd-talk@pairlist.net > Received: from arda.pair.com (arda.pair.com [209.68.1.133]) > by pairlist.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 019885384A > for <303rd-talk@lists.303rdbga.com>; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:52:48 -0400 > (EDT) > Received: (qmail 23522 invoked by uid 62225); 3 Apr 2001 02:52:48 -0000 > Delivered-To: glm-303rdbga:com-303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Received: (qmail 23519 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2001 02:52:47 -0000 > Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (64.12.136.164) > by arda.pair.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2001 02:52:47 -0000 > Received: from Thor542086@aol.com > by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id w.f3.8de229e (3986); > Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 -0400 (EDT) > From: Thor542086@aol.com > Message-ID: > To: jimwall@ihawaii.net > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary" > Content-Disposition: Inline > X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10520 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's > Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > Errors-To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > X-BeenThere: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > List-Help: > List-Post: > List-Subscribe: , > > List-Id: 303rd Bomb Group Forum <303rd-talk.303rdBGA.com> > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT > > > --part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Thor542086@aol.com writes:


Subj: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's
Date: 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time
From:    Thor542086@aol.com
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To:    jimwall@ihawaii.net
CC:    303rd-talk@303rdbga.com




Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born
in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight
engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought
the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said
he
could see sparks flying out of the back.
Terry Lucas

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT




--part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 04:14:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:14:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262 Message-ID: <32.12e44608.27fa9a12@aol.com> --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jack for your response! I appreciate your feedback. That is really interesting about the rockets that your plane dodged! I think I remember another pilot telling me the same thing. That had to be a strange feeling. I have always wondered about bomber crews encountering a Me 262. Your gunners had to be reallly good to take out those jets. I have alot of respect for you men. Terry Lucas --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jack for your response! I appreciate your feedback. That is really
interesting about the rockets that your plane dodged! I think I remember
another pilot telling me the same thing. That had to be a strange feeling. I
have always wondered about bomber crews encountering a Me 262. Your gunners
had to be reallly good to take out those jets. I have alot of respect for you
men.
Terry Lucas --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 04:38:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:38:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <000b01c0bbef$96536700$4a194e0c@o3n4f8> Well, Jack, first let me say this; I will. Second, I think what you have said about going to help your ground crew with maintenance is an example of your personal integrity. You don't get medals for that. What you do get is a heck of alot of well deserved respect from your ground crew. Thirdly, you can tell I have been traipsing around the war-bird pages from my gaff about the "Pratt and Whitneys" (thanks for embarrassing me, :-)) I deserved that). Fourth point, I don't think I will ever cease to be amazed at the complexities you pilots mastered at such a young age within the time span you had to inculcate, acheive, and perform all the responsibilities that rested on your young shoulders. It is no wonder you have succeeded in life. You were the cream of the crop; the best of the best. ( I am not trying to flatter you, sir; but you can be flattered if you care to be-- [ I have quit the car business, and have no ulterior motives in that regard]. I am very proud of you, and Bill Heller (hello, Sir) and every last mothers son of you all. And of my dad who also was a brave( foolish) young man). Fifth point, If I had been on your crew I'd be a better man than I am today(for fear of getting tossed out sans parachute) and I would have schmooed the Brass hats into letting us keep our heater. ( I used to be a pretty good salesman). Lastly, thanks to contributing to my seemingly insatiable appetite for the mundane, but important aspects of your time at Molesworth. PS. Thanks to all of you who, despite the seriousness of the discussions here, relieve the tension with a good heart and a true sense of humor. I would offer a toast, but I am on the "wagon". Cheers, friends. Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > cooler and back into the oil tank. > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of > the same engines. > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > Keep the peace Lloyd > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:07:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:58 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402200758.008ace40@ilhawaii.net> We were attacked by 20-30 ME-262 jets on our last mission on March 20 to Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. two b-17s went down, including the plane flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down and I believeclaims were filed for at least 5. That was mission 341. Jim walling Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:07:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:36 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402200736.008ae840@ilhawaii.net> We were attacked by ME-262 jets on our last mission. We were bombing an oil target at Hamburg on March 20, 1945. and were hit by 20-30 jets as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-17s, including the plane flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down and i believe more were destroyed. Jim Walling Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:23:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <61.cd02110.27fac67b@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. Then there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw a picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I don't drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. Good night Lloyd Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:18:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:18:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's References: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AC9875D.4BA876B@attglobal.net> --------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lucas ... Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting ... Cheers! Bill Heller Thor542086@aol.com wrote: > I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you > encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? > Thanks, Terry Lucas --------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lucas ...

Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting  ...

Cheers!

Bill Heller

Thor542086@aol.com wrote:

I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you
encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas
--------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:36:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 04:36:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <61.cd02110.27fac67b@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c0bc19$400445c0$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, you can try, but you can't embarrass me, ( I do well enough on my own). [ please have a grin on me, Jack. It's free , and I love it.]. You are successful , Jack. I drink like a thirsty fish, that's why I often make an ass of myself, and why I am "on the wagon". (ginger ale is about the best I can do in the clinches) . Jack, I have been shot at twice, but never in a war; missed getting killed both times by a slim margin right here in the good old USA minding my own business in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would volunteer for a low level mission to Schwienfurt rather than drive to Orlando , or Tampa. ( The Japs thought they had Kamakazee pilots, HA!) The Elite of all Kamakazi's can be found on I-4 flying low level on your six o:clock.). Like I told Bill Heller awhile back, I wish it had been me who had to face that war, but it wasn't. I would hope that in the clinches I would have measured up. Thank you. ( hope the web meister will forgive this small transgression :-) late at night. Let's not get in the habit of it tho!). Bon Soir, mes amis. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I > understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with > one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. Then > there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw a > picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I don't > drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with > strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to > have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one > fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. Good > night Lloyd > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:52:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 04:52:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's References: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> <3AC9875D.4BA876B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002301c0bc1b$7bd269e0$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Heller, what is this? A display of good natured humor? not funny then; but gallandly (sp) so in retrospect. Thanks for the image. It will be hard to explain why I am laughing, but it will be the thought of Me163's propelled by bumble bee farts. I hope you are not offended, Mr. Heller, but that is a very funny analogy. Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:18 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's > Terry Lucas ... > > Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an > Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting ... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Thor542086@aol.com wrote: > > > I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you > > encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? > > Thanks, Terry Lucas > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 13:09:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:09:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thor: Yes we saw them both a bit in 1944. They were so fast they scared the > pants off me. On the 16mm movie that I have, which for the most part is just slow panning at a few B-17s flying along side, at one point, the view is of a single contrail, and the person taking the picture is obviously trying to follow it to what caused it, because the view ends when the edge of the window shows up. I'm guessing it is one of those jet or rocket planes that flew by, and it was so fast that they couldn't get it into the picture, unfortunately, so all I have is a picture of the vapor trail (the B-17s weren't leaving a trail at the time). ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 13:55:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:55:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: What was it about British trains that you never knew when they started up? (Awkward English there)....When the American steam locomotives did so, you were yanked off your feet, whereas the Brit models just glided up and away. Kettering was a place of many emotions....leaving on a two-day pass to London and then returning to the rigors of combat...what a contrast! Good wishes to you in Ketteriing from Boynton Beach, Florida. Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35M. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 14:02:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:02:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <6a.cb559a2.27fb23c8@aol.com> The first time we encountered the German rocket plane we gazed in wonderment at something that could fly that fast...vertically. Like how many rads lead do you give a target like that? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 14:15:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:15:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <81.9151763.27fb26d4@aol.com> When I lived in the Hartford Conn. area, home of Pratt & Whitney (E.Hfd.) a familiar sight was the Fort they'd converted with a massive single engine in the nose....thus a five- engined B-17. The aircraft had been retired to the collection of the then Connecticut Aeronautical Historical Ass'n. (CAHA) and unfortunately was destroyed along with two dozen venerable flying treasures in a violent tornado. Imagine all these irreplaceable sky wonders, wing to wing in a small compound, all trying to fly at once. It was the sorriest sight I've ever seen. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 15:17:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:17:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <81.9151763.27fb26d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0bc48$d0493620$8b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob Hand, Not far from where I live , at the Fantasy of Flight in Polk City, Kermit Weeks owns a B-17 that may hold the World record for a pilotless take off and landing. This plane flew about two miles when Hurricane Andrew whammed into Homestead, Fl. Fortunately , this plane survived tho it sustained damage to the left wing. It is presently on static display. Cheers. ( I highly recommend a visit next time youre in the Sunshine State). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > When I lived in the Hartford Conn. area, home of Pratt & Whitney (E.Hfd.) a > familiar sight was the Fort they'd converted with a massive single engine in > the nose....thus a five- engined B-17. The aircraft had been retired to the > collection of the then Connecticut Aeronautical Historical Ass'n. (CAHA) and > unfortunately was destroyed along with two dozen venerable flying treasures > in a violent tornado. Imagine all these irreplaceable sky wonders, wing to > wing in a small compound, all trying to fly at once. It was the sorriest > sight I've ever seen. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 15:23:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:23:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <20010403.092325.-602305.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jim, I wasn't on #341 to Hamburg but I have two friends who were. Possibly you know them. SSGT Chester Maluchnik, RO on the Francis Taub Crew, 358th Sqd. They were flying #43-39160, one of the two aircraft lost in the ME-262 attack. Chet got out okay and was a POW. I will have breakfast with him tomorrow morning so should you have a message for him let me know. The other friend was on the Denison Crew, 427th Sqd. Walter D O'hearn, TG. He is credited with downing one of the 262's. Regards.....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 16:37:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:37:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hey guys! Jack you are 100% correct, Sentimental Journey, a CAF B-17, recently visited Kansas City and, of course, I was there when she landed. (Always was a sucker for those Wright Cyclones!) After she taxied to her hard stand and powered down her engines, I stood on my tippy toes to take a look at those awesome engines. Imagine my surprise when not one but all of those engines had a Pratt & Whitney stamp on them! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT > >Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I >understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with >one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. >Then >there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw >a >picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I >don't >drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with >strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to >have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one >fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. >Good >night Lloyd > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 17:04:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:04:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <5a.136c6408.27fb4ea5@aol.com> Terry: Had an unusual look at a ME 262 when one buzzed Staglag Luft ! one spring day in 1945... made several passes at less than 1000 feet so the camp had a good look.... quite impressive! Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 16:45:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:45:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <20010403.104537.-472603.0.billrunnels@juno.com> In reviewing the assembly charts for #341, my friend Chet was in the aircraft on your right wing that was lost. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 17:51:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:51:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Boy Rencher beat me to it Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > cooler and back into the oil tank. > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of > the same engines. > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > Keep the peace Lloyd > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:05:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:05:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs References: Message-ID: <3ACA02DD.1D0C7DE4@attglobal.net> Bob Hand ... I keep wondering why you went to London from Kettering when all the rest of us from Molesworth left from Bedford ... As for British trains, no matter where you go in Europe (and the UK) you will find much better train service than ANYWHERE in the US! In fact we could rebuild our train service and help a lot of people. Ah, but you are correct ... the emotion of it all. Riding to london on a little leave and then returning to you know what. Cheers! WCH Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > What was it about British trains that you never knew when they started up? > (Awkward English there)....When the American steam locomotives did so, you > were yanked off your feet, whereas the Brit models just glided up and away. > Kettering was a place of many emotions....leaving on a two-day pass to London > and then returning to the rigors of combat...what a contrast! Good wishes to > you in Ketteriing from Boynton Beach, Florida. > Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35M. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:27:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <003501c0bc63$6512f7e0$771b4e0c@o3n4f8> Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you tho). I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Boy Rencher beat me to it > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was > not > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > remember. > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > pumped > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts > of > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an > oil > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch > of > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil > that > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE > 60 > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was > a > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because > they > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out > of > > the same engines. > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > between > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us > take > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. > Now > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 19:05:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:05:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: <27.1351b851.27fb6afc@aol.com> Bob Hand, I think the English train moved out smoothly because of the type of coupling between the cars. American trains have about 10 or 12 inches of slack in each hitch between the cars. This allows the engine to start each car moving before the one behind. it starts to move. This allows a smaller engine to start a bigger train but causes the "jerk" The trains in Europe do not have this slack. The whole train starts at once When the engine moves one inch the rear car moves one inch. I should say when the American engine moves one inch the next car doesn't move at all. In Europe when the engine moves 2.54 centimeters The rear car and all the others move 2.54 centimeters Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:27:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000201c0bc74$10d9a0a0$47194e0c@o3n4f8> Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you tho). I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Boy Rencher beat me to it > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was > not > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > remember. > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > pumped > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts > of > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an > oil > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch > of > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil > that > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE > 60 > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was > a > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because > they > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out > of > > the same engines. > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > between > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us > take > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. > Now > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 20:59:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:59:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hve been to Polk City and Fantasy, and it was tremendous....Weeks is the ultimate collector! I live in Boynton Beach, been here for 14 years. Thanks for the info. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:04:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:04:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <89.4ab6c1f.27fb86e6@aol.com> Speaking of which, have you ever played the CD "Round Sounds" IN YOUR CAR? Good grief, what an extraordinary treat....guaranteed to grin you from ear to ear. They have come out with Vol.2, which has the run-up of a Fortress. That's got to be awesome. I played it for my wife and she thinks I'm nuts. Played it for the grandkids real loud and scared the hell out of 'em. Whatever turns you on. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:42:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:42:46 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <009201c0bc83$78a08fa0$720110ac@Betac.com> Bill - I know FIDO was common for the Brits, flying night missions, but didn't think any 8AF airfields had it. (???) Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby trenches > were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these > ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the aerdrome. > The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane to > land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added and > there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, lighted > and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small > pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE > BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:48:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:48:39 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields References: Message-ID: <009301c0bc83$7b585ca0$720110ac@Betac.com> ?? This is a new one to me. I learned something today. Brian M ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields > Here is a snipit I learned during my last trip across the pond. As we were > traversing the countryside of East Anglia from one heavy bomber station to > another, primarily on back country roads, we kept passing all of these > bright yellow plastic poles sticking out of the ground, seemingly > everywhere! I finally asked my driver, Ray Jude, a dedicated member of the > East Anglian Aviation Society, what all those yellow poles were. Ray has > done considerable research on the subject and said they marked the "petrol" > lines to each aerodrome. In doing his research, he could not get the Crown > to release any information about the location of these "petrol" lines. Even > after 55 years, this information is still classified by the English > Government. Do any of our UK friends have any additional information on > this topic? > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 22:37:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:37:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: Thanks Jack....sure makes sense the way you explain it. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 23:26:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:26:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. My father never talked to me at all about missions he flew on, but he did tell me about how cold it was in the winter there. He told me that someone found a supply of WAX (I may have remembered this wrong), however the wax didn't burn very well, so apparently one of the men there, who was a chemical engineer, constructed some elaborate device whereby they suspended the wax over the top of the stove so that the heat melted it, and got it to drip slowly either onto or into (not sure) the stove, however it still didn't provide much heat, so the guy added another device that dropped a drop of water with each drop of wax. He said that it was critical to time the drops of oil and water, and that they sizzled when they hit the hot stove. He claimed that the combination of the heat and the water "cracked" the wax into more volatile hydrocarbons that burned better, and that after they did that, they had plenty of heat. This whole story made no sense to me, and my suspicion was that they just thought that they had more heat because of the increased humidity from the water, but it was still an interesting story, especially valued because it was one of the few things that my father discussed about the war. I'm curious whether anyone remembers such a contraption? Actually, with the way decades alter peoples memories, it is possible that he was describing the oil device above, but just got the fuels wrong. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 00:49:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:49:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <003d01c0bc98$c8546980$83f833cf@richards> Bill: The wax was the wax coated rings from around the 500 lb Bombs they were used to allow the bombs to be rolled along the ground without breaking the hanging rings which fastened the bombs to the shackles in the Bomb Bay. We burned these in our BOQ when we couldn't get coal. Incidentally one of my first experiences when I got assigned to the 360th was a Coat Raid run by the guys in the barracks. We had briefing and certain guys were assigned to do a stealth mission to keep the Brit guards busy so the other men could get through the fence to get coal . We had a debriefing after the mission and we all donated our goodies from our mailed packages from home so we could celebrate a successful mission. Good story huh SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > During 1944 had many many barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > > it down. > > My father never talked to me at all about missions he flew on, but > he did tell me about how cold it was in the winter there. He told > me that someone found a supply of WAX (I may have remembered > this wrong), however the wax didn't burn very well, so apparently > one of the men there, who was a chemical engineer, constructed > some elaborate device whereby they suspended the wax over the > top of the stove so that the heat melted it, and got it to drip slowly > either onto or into (not sure) the stove, however it still didn't provide > much heat, so the guy added another device that dropped a drop of > water with each drop of wax. He said that it was critical to time the > drops of oil and water, and that they sizzled when they hit the hot > stove. He claimed that the combination of the heat and the water > "cracked" the wax into more volatile hydrocarbons that burned > better, and that after they did that, they had plenty of heat. This > whole story made no sense to me, and my suspicion was that they > just thought that they had more heat because of the increased > humidity from the water, but it was still an interesting story, > especially valued because it was one of the few things that my > father discussed about the war. > I'm curious whether anyone remembers such a contraption? > Actually, with the way decades alter peoples memories, it is > possible that he was describing the oil device above, but just got > the fuels wrong. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 04:13:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:13:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <000b01c0bcb5$3ba75b60$9f194e0c@o3n4f8> here is a cunundrum. The Wright engines were original right( I mean, correct?). P&W's could be substituted, and even Allisons... Where were Lycombing and Continental while all this was going on? Now I am really confused. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Hey guys! Jack you are 100% correct, Sentimental Journey, a CAF B-17, > recently visited Kansas City and, of course, I was there when she landed. > (Always was a sucker for those Wright Cyclones!) After she taxied to her > hard stand and powered down her engines, I stood on my tippy toes to take a > look at those awesome engines. Imagine my surprise when not one but all of > those engines had a Pratt & Whitney stamp on them! > Kevin > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT > > > >Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I > >understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with > >one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. > >Then > >there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw > >a > >picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I > >don't > >drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with > >strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to > >have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one > >fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. > >Good > >night Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 05:34:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:34:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Lloyd, Wright and P & W both built high horsepower radials one row Like a B17. 2 row like a B24 and 4 row like a B29. Lycombing and Contrinental aircraft engines as far as I know are horizontal opposed engines with 4 or 6 cylinders and most with horsepower between 85 and up to about 300. The big radials could go up to over 2000 HP. This was in the good? old days. I don't know what they are doing now during these bad young days. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 09:10:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 01:10:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> <009201c0bc83$78a08fa0$720110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3ACAD6F9.618B845D@attglobal.net> BMcG ... I do not think any 8th Bases had FIDO either. And mostly it was not even at a particular RAF Base, but at an airfield used in an emergency. I know of one near Manston, but know little of the others. It was an idea to solve an instant problem and later, of course, more sophisticted ways were introduced. Cheers! WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Bill - > I know FIDO was common for the Brits, flying night missions, but didn't > think any 8AF airfields had it. (???) > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby > trenches > > were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these > > ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the > aerdrome. > > The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane > to > > land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added > and > > there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, > lighted > > and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small > > pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE > > BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 13:43:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:43:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: <4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109@aol.com> --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, do you remember or have you heard of Merlin Miller with the 427th squadron? He was on Hullar's plane as a tailgunner. He is from Dugger IN. I see him about twice a week and I will ask he if he remembers you or Walter D. O'Hearn. Terry Lucas --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, do you remember or have you heard of Merlin Miller with the 427th
squadron? He was on Hullar's plane as a tailgunner. He is from Dugger IN. I
see him about twice a week and I will ask he if he remembers you or Walter D.
O'Hearn.
Terry Lucas --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 13:04:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:04:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: <20010404.070448.-355525.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Terry, I was with the 360th Sqd. and didn't have the pleasure of knowing Merlin Miller. I didn't meet Don O'hearn until after the war when we formed the Minnesota Chapter of The 8th Air Force Historical Society. Take care, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:21:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:21:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <49.9bcedb7.27fc79df@aol.com> The fuel allotted to us was coke, which is coal with the gases burned out. We used to use it in the Brooklyn tenement I lived in. The burnt residue was shoveled in sort of a shaker on top of the ash barrel and the ash fell through, leaving burnable coke on top. Knowing this, I used to "filter" the ash from other barracks and could often come up with a shovelful of burnable fuel. And those raids on the coke pile adjacent to the chapel were something else. One night someone rammed a truck through the fence and we had a major haul. Needless to say our brilliant leader directed a search for the stolen loot in our barracks and invoked a fine of a pound for every pound of coke discovered. We did burn those bomb rings although they had to be cut to fit into the potbellystove, which was one hell of a job even with an axe. Cheers and Memories.....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:43:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Milo Minderbinder Message-ID: Lloyd: Who is Milo Minderbinder. I go to a bar in Phoenix called Minderbinders. Always was curious where the name came from. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 > >Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you >tho). >I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe >Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Dick Smith >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Boy Rencher beat me to it > > Spider > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I >was > > not > > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? >the > > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > > remember. > > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had >Wright > > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker >and > > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an >oil > > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what >is > > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > > pumped > > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and >lubricated > > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior >parts > > of > > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had >an > > oil > > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop >pitch > > of > > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from >the > > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine >oil > > that > > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to >feather > > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in >the > > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the >oil > > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably >SAE > > 60 > > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption >was > > a > > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and >told > > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil >leaks > > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine >because > > they > > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours >out > > of > > > the same engines. > > > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > > between > > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > > barrels > > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I >never > > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > > B17s. > > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > > took > > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut >and > > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration >of > > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night >raids > > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made >us > > take > > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a >charm. > > Now > > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:51:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:51:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Round Sounds Message-ID: Bob: We've talked about Round Sounds before, but I too play this in my JEEP that has the best sound system I've ever had in a car. The looks I get a stoplights could stop your heart! And I must admit I have one awesome stereo at home - four large Altec Model 8s with 100 watts per channel driving them. When you hear those big radials come to life at about 60 wpc, even your bones vibrate! I watched a Dauntless SBD fire up at te CAF once and my stereo come very close to the real McCoy. I particularly like on RS #1, when the two birds taxi back to their hard stands and power down their engines! Wow! Bob, I thought I was the only nut to enjoy the hell out of these sounds! I was written up in our local paper a few years ago and they asked me about my "Favorite Music." Of course I responded with, "The deep-throated roar of four R1820-97 Wright Cylcones at full throttle!" Cuidate mucho! Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:04:54 EDT > >Speaking of which, have you ever played the CD "Round Sounds" IN YOUR CAR? >Good grief, what an extraordinary treat....guaranteed to grin you from ear >to >ear. They have come out with Vol.2, which has the run-up of a Fortress. >That's got to be awesome. I played it for my wife and she thinks I'm >nuts. >Played it for the grandkids real loud and scared the hell out of 'em. >Whatever turns you on. Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 15:02:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:02:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, Pratt & Whitneys can be substituted for the Wright Cyclones with a few modification for the mounting brackets in the engine nacelle, according to the flight engineer on Sentimental Journey I spoke with. But Allison built V-12s for installation in P-40s and the original P-51s. You could very very stick a V-12 in the engine nacelle of a Fort without extensive modification. Don't have