From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 00:58:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:58:03 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <2d.9a5efb3.27f7d71b@aol.com> Lloyd, When I used Darky or Darkie if I am remembering the name right and I think I am I was probably always 1000 ft or so and circling until I got a reply. They all used the same frequency but did not interfere with each other as they could only transmit 3 miles so if they were 5 miles apart they couldn't hear each other and if you were 4 miles away you couldn't hear them. When one answered you knew you were within 3 miles of his location. As low as we were our transmissions did not go very far. The people that manned those stations could tell the kind of a plane over their station in the fog by its sound. They could even tell if it was a B17 on 3 engines or a B25 or Bedford on one. They were sharp. If a German flew over they could track it as it flew over each station and report its course after it crossed 2 or 3 stations. I don't remember the name of the beacon we assembled on but it was 19 and one half miles west of our field. I think the 379th and 384th used the same radio beacon but we assembled at different altitudes of course. We could of course recognize our group by the excellent formation thanks mostly to Bill Heller. Best Wishes. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 01:19:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:19:15 EST Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <33.12de630d.27f7dc13@aol.com> Bill Jones, I don't remember the name of our Beacon but it was 19 and one half miles west of our station. As I remember we always use it to assemble as did the 384th and 379th. I think that was Kimbolton and Grafton-Underwood. when it was too foggy to let down in formation we used it to let down on also. I was there in 1944. I don't know about before or after. I was too young or in the hospital. Yes, I flirted with the Nurses but married a Hospital Dietitian. I was too ugly for the Nurses. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 01:39:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:39:08 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: Message-ID: <002601c0ba4c$8bf146a0$3ff833cf@richards> Kevin Darkie worked by using only low frequency transmitters in the planes to send a "Hello Darkie " message as the range of the transmission was limited to about ten miles your message would only be received by a couple or even one site . They would respond giving you an idea as to where you were. Understand? Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > I should probably know this, but have not seen this question in this forum. > What was the name of the Buncher Beacon the 303rd formed up on? The Buncher > at the 100th BG at Thorpe Abbotts was called Splasher 6. > > And do any of the pilots remember "Darkie?" This was a network of air > traffic controllers at the airfields in England, that would help lost > airplanes vector to a nearby airfield in bad weather. Can anyone tell me > how this worked? > > Thanks in advance, guys, for your help! > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 03:05:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:05:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie In-Reply-To: <33.12de630d.27f7dc13@aol.com> Message-ID: > Bill Jones, I don't remember the name of our Beacon but it was 19 and one > half miles west of our station. As I remember we always use it to assemble as > did the 384th and 379th. According to the web page in the history section at the 303rd site, that must have been Harrington, which if I read the map correctly must have been a B-24 base. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 06:21:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:21:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <2d.9a5efb3.27f7d71b@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0ba6b$a5f5f2c0$cb194e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Jack. I think that my problem in understanding your reply is largely due to my ignorance in understanding radio frequencies. Before I ask again, I will try to learn something about that subject, and then, can formulate my question better. I appreciate the information you sent. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > Lloyd, When I used Darky or Darkie if I am remembering the name right and I > think I am I was probably always 1000 ft or so and circling until I got a > reply. They all used the same frequency but did not interfere with each > other as they could only transmit 3 miles so if they were 5 miles apart they > couldn't hear each other and if you were 4 miles away you couldn't hear them. > When one answered you knew you were within 3 miles of his location. As low > as we were our transmissions did not go very far. The people that manned > those stations could tell the kind of a plane over their station in the fog > by its sound. They could even tell if it was a B17 on 3 engines or a B25 or > Bedford on one. They were sharp. If a German flew over they could track it as > it flew over each station and report its course after it crossed 2 or 3 > stations. > > I don't remember the name of the beacon we assembled on but it was 19 and > one half miles west of our field. I think the 379th and 384th used the same > radio beacon but we assembled at different altitudes of course. We could of > course recognize our group by the excellent formation thanks mostly to Bill > Heller. > Best Wishes. > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 08:03:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:03:46 -0800 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> LJG ... The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use of it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! However, enemy planes did attempt bombings and landings at certain of our aerdromes. Indeed, there were many "lighted" runways in many areas which were merely lights on the tops of TREES. in forests. There was no runway there. It was meant for the enemy should he so wish to either land on it or destroy it. The Brtish and the Allies (us) were constantly coming up with ideas and things to distract or otherwise mislead the enemy. After all, we were on a day-to-day learning curve since there was no "pattern" to follow in the conduct of the war. Take the oil thing, for example ... as the late General Galland told me personally, had our high command concentrated on OIL alone and the DELIVERY thereof, we MAY NOT HAVE HAD TO HAVE A D-DAY! But, you see, that is hindsight, with which we are all endowed as 20-20! I have a very dear friend, former Luftwaffe WW#2 pilot, who told me of his capture by the Allies while he was "protecting" the Munich Aerdrome ... with a pistol! I asked him in disbelief why, he, a Luftwaffe PILOT was on the ground with a pistol and he said to me, "Bill, we had hundreds of first line Fighter planes right there, BUT WE HAD NO FUEL!" Methinks one of the greatest Brit ideas was FIDO .... an acronym for Fog Invection Dispersal Operation. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Do you know how this system was fail-safe from enemy interlocution, Jack? > They seemed to know alot about your frequencies. If my information is > correct, the Germans often tried to lead you astray with false beacons. > Could the radio operator tell from the strength of the signal? I am glad > that it worked, but curious as to why it could not be interdicted. Thanks. > > Darkie transmitters would only reach 3 miles so you knew if > > anyone answered and they always did you were within 3 miles of their > station. > > It was a very simple system but it worked every time for me and I used it > > many times. It was a life saver. > > Jack Rencher. > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 13:46:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 08:46:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: Lloyd, My knowledge of Radio is very limited, but I'll tell you what little I think I know. The frequency might be described as how close together they are one behind the other. We used what we called low frequency that as I remember was between 200 and 400 megacycle per second or maybe it was kilocycles but I don't think so. These frequencies followed the curvature of the earth. We used these in our old A N (dit da da dit) 4 course radio ranges. They would reach out about 200 miles but were full of static, fading out, split and bent beams and were very primitive compared to what we have now, especially in the mountains like Salt Lake City. We also used VHF (very high frequency) mostly for communications. I think we had 4 of them but there was no doubt more later. These went in a straight line so if you were very far away or very low they were over your head as they did not follow the curvature of the earth. Then there was medium frequency that I think was used mostly with Morris code with which you could communicate with London from San Francisco. There is a thing called the Kelly Heavyside layer up in the stratosphere someplace that reflects radio waves back down like a pool ball when it hits the edge of the pool table but it has waves and holes in it and is very unreliable and irratic.Now so much for the frequencies. Radio waves can be strong or weak. The distance they travel can be regulated by the power of the transmitter and I suppose by the size of the transmitting antenna. The English had barrage balloons around some cities with wire or chains hanging from them for the Germans to fly into. They had radios transmitters on them that reached out just a few miles to warn us. When we heard their signal we promptly executed a maneuver called a 180. I suppose the Germans knew these frequencies also so if they did the 180 also they didn't get to bomb the city. If that worked I guess they could have put out the signal and saved the costs of the balloons Lloyd I hope some radio man answers you, but if they don't this might be a beginning. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 17:31:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use of > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 17:41:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:41:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Radio frequencies Message-ID: <002401c0baca$8c6715a0$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Jack. Between yours and Bills explaination, I believe I have a working idea of why and how the beacon system worked. I might add that I am very glad is was available to you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 1 20:07:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 12:07:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was Hitler NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things may have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different ideas anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but it must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be followed by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > of > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 00:03:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:03:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> WCH, There seems no end of psychopaths that arise to positions of power, and are (incredibly enough) sustained by the very people they terrorize. Perhaps a good deal of the blame can be laid at the doorsteps of the "First" World goverments who through their Machiavellian self interest, and convoluted foreign policies abet many despots. Inevitably, it is the men and women in uniform who ultimately pay the price for Politians' bad judgement. I confess, you now have tweaked my curiousity anent "FIDO". May we discuss this topic? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was Hitler > NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things may > have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different ideas > anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. > Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but it > must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and > THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be followed > by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). > > I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... > > Cheers! > > WCH > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Heller > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > > of > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 03:33:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:33:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Bill Heller or WCH' I am dumb. What is FIDO? Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 04:01:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:01:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon to Websters. Best & Grins. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > Bill Heller or WCH' > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > Jack > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:13:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:13:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> LJG ... FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby trenches were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the aerdrome. The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane to land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added and there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, lighted and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. Finally the SBA (standard beam approach) was devised. This was the forerunner of the very successful ILS (instrument landing system) used today. And with radar used for positioning ONTO said ILS, it became even easier. At Molesworth, believe it or not we had an SBA installation. However, for the recovery of a returning Group after a mission, such was not used for it took too long. One had to locate oneself onto the SBA beam and using Outer and Inner markers and altitude restriction, perform an approach to and a landing on the runway. I completed an SBA Course at Molesworth with Mel Schulstad as my instructor/Check Pilot. I even received a little card saying I was so qualified. But this system was NO use for recovering a returning Group for the reasons I mentioned. When I went into the airline business post war, I used to fly a route into London which required us to fly a RANGE LEG to the Epsom Range, then position ourselves by doing a route THROUGH the Heathrow ILS course, do a procedure turn and THEN capture the Localizer of the ILS and fly THAT on the GLIDE SLOPE to a successful landing. I was doing this with a DC6 in 1949, breaking 200 foot ceilings and 500 METERS vizibility. How nice it was when radar came onto the scene and ground controllers could position us ON the ILS without all that positioning by ourselves. Time saver too. Also, airlines only used GCA in emergencies and at certain military fields ... due to the rule of airlines that command NOT be external, but HAD to remain in the cockpit. For years, PanAm owned and operated the only GCA at Gander, Newfoundland and charged airlines $135 for the use of same. This was a life-saver for the airlines as Gander was a normal stop on the early North Atlantic runs. Now they go non-stop from way inland of the US to Europe and do not need such way-stops. Hope this has aided you in further understanding the FIDO and what it led to. FIDO was only used in emergencies, as you can imagine ... due to the cost and TIME CONSUMING set up for the operation. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > WCH, There seems no end of psychopaths that arise to positions of power, > and are (incredibly enough) sustained by the very people they terrorize. > Perhaps a good deal of the blame can be laid at the doorsteps of the "First" > World goverments who through their Machiavellian self interest, and > convoluted foreign policies abet many despots. Inevitably, it is the men > and women in uniform who ultimately pay the price for Politians' bad > judgement. > I confess, you now have tweaked my curiousity anent "FIDO". May we discuss > this topic? Thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:07 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > Yes, blunders were made by the Axis powers. I do believe that it was > Hitler > > NOT listening to his generals which caused this. Had he done so, things > may > > have been a bit tougher for us. As you know, even Rommel had different > ideas > > anent how the Allies would invade Europe and Hitler did NOT listen to him. > > Thus, our DIFFICULT success at Normandy. Hitler was surely a mad man, but > it > > must be recalled that the German people seemed to follow him blindly, and > > THIS fact worries me about today's world .... such men CAN and MAY be > followed > > by the masses. (I trust this modicum of "politics" will pass muster). > > > > I once saw FIDO in action and still marvel at its idea today ... > > > > Cheers! > > > > WCH > > > > > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > > WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of > my > > > misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > > misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. > The > > > key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > > That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this > was > > > not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you > said, > > > hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more > strategic > > > blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Heller > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy > use > > > of > > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:20:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:20:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AC81A11.93BC8B20@attglobal.net> Jack Rencher ... (A) You are NOT dumb! (B) FIDO (Fog Investion Dispersal Operation)is explained in a very recent note to Llolyd Grant and should be on the Chat Page now. If not, let me know and I will go over it. I only observed it twice in operation and then only on a night cross country when they were either testing it or practicing with it. I never had the occasion to use it myself. And, of course, if I observed it on a night cross country and SAW it, you can be assured there was no fog so they had to be testing it or practicing with it. Also, it made a helluva lot of smoke, which, in a sense, defeated its own purpose. BUT, it was sworn by by RAF boys who had to use it. And, with high power approach lighting systems and the runway itself cleared of the fog, it was a success for the times it was used. You can imagine that during war, the use of such LIGHTING was anathema and used ONLY in dire emergencies. Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Bill Heller or WCH' > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 07:23:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:23:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AC81AC5.ADCF8E2A@attglobal.net> LJG ... As you can observe from my most recent missive to you, I WAS NOT HAVING A BIT OF FUN! I trust by now you know a little more about FIDO than just to feed him and take him for a walk now and then .... As for the term "invection" one must realize that there are several types of fog. Invection fog is one type. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal > operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon > to Websters. Best & Grins. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > Bill Heller or WCH' > > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 08:56:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 03:56:56 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: <103.129570f.27f98ac8@aol.com> Thanks Bill Heller, After it was explained I was familiar with Rover whoopes FIDO I mean. I had just completely forgotten the name. I never used it but after you explained it I remember reading about it. in the good? old days. It seems I was always slow flying a new engine or some other job when we were stood down because of weather Our navigator and I worked out a system at Molesworth using the Gee Box with which we landed several times in absolute O O conditions. without getting killed once. We never ever even missed the runway but we could not taxi with it. We had to use the altimeter for glide slope so the last 20 feet was a bit hairy. It's a good thing we were expendable and we NEVER carried passengers like you did. Once we took the Engineering Officer as copilot. He was not a pilot but got the gear and flaps up and down real well. To hide his nervousness when we landed he started counting the bounces. When he got up to 6 or so I told him he just as well quit I was not going around. Bill I think you are the best thing that happened to the 303rd BG since Col. Stevens left and I'm glad we had Harry Gobrecht and Ed Miller there to fill in when you were having a nap. You know Hal Susskind kinda kept us on course too. Thank you Three. You make me glad I didn't get over there in P38s like I wanted too. Jack Rencher, Not near as good a pilot as he thinks he is. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 11:48:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (fox) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:48:15 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] talk programme Message-ID: <200104021110.f32BAlY97224@m3.worldnet.net> 2nd April 2001 Would you please REMOVE me from the talk show until further notice. many thanks ' James A Fox From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 14:29:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:29:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages Message-ID: This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing ethyl fluids – eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any difference in aerial combat? Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. >----- Original Message ----- >From: William Heller >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > LJG ... > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use >of > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 14:39:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:39:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields Message-ID: Here is a snipit I learned during my last trip across the pond. As we were traversing the countryside of East Anglia from one heavy bomber station to another, primarily on back country roads, we kept passing all of these bright yellow plastic poles sticking out of the ground, seemingly everywhere! I finally asked my driver, Ray Jude, a dedicated member of the East Anglian Aviation Society, what all those yellow poles were. Ray has done considerable research on the subject and said they marked the "petrol" lines to each aerodrome. In doing his research, he could not get the Crown to release any information about the location of these "petrol" lines. Even after 55 years, this information is still classified by the English Government. Do any of our UK friends have any additional information on this topic? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 15:37:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:37:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie Message-ID: Hay you all, I must have caught Hoof & Mouth decease last night. I didn't mean at all what it sounded like I said. Let me make this crystal clear. I really liked Col. Stevens. I should have said "Bill Heller was the greatest thing that happened to the 303rd since Col. Stevens was there" etc. I hope you can find it in your hearts to forgive me and not shoot me like the cows. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 15:39:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:39:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <35.12ed9175.27f93edf@aol.com> <000901c0bb21$39eca9a0$4f904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81AC5.ADCF8E2A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <001001c0bb82$c04ba760$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller, As ever your reply leaves nothing to doubt and imparts knowlege and understanding of the subject. Understandiing the theory behind FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a meteorological sense. The closest my old dictionary gets to defining the word is "invective" ( and you are welcome to toss a few my way, Bill). Thank you for the thorough treatment of FIDO and the SBA system. I am sure that it is also appreciated by everyone else who read it. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller . To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > As you can observe from my most recent missive to you, I WAS NOT HAVING A BIT > OF FUN! I trust by now you know a little more about FIDO than just to feed > him and take him for a walk now and then .... As for the term "invection" one > must realize that there are several types of fog. Invection fog is one type. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > I think Bill is having a bit of fun, Jack. Fog invection dispersal > > operation? "Invection" must surely be some aviation related word uncommon > > to Websters. Best & Grins. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > Bill Heller or WCH' > > > I am dumb. What is FIDO? > > > Jack > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 16:46:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:46:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] .FOG... was Re: Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie.... In-Reply-To: <001001c0bb82$c04ba760$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Understandiing the theory behind > FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a > meteorological sense. I'm not sure that it is obvious to me, but if it means the opposite of convection, I'd have to guess that it refers to fog that isn't moving with the wind, but rather collected in a low area. I guess it might have been easier for them to raise the temperature of the area and control the fog if the wind wasn't bringing in new fog to replace the old? Is this anything close? Fog has always interested me. I used to live about 5 miles from a river, and most mornings, it would be perfectly clear, until the fog lifted off the river and would then drift with the wind, and would hit us 5 miles away. We lived on a hill and could see it coming. We now live in an area with a lot of small lakes and ponds, and if you go to a high area you can tell where all the ponds are because of the fog that collects over them. And if you wait for the wind to kick up, it is interesting to watch it disturb the little pockets of fog. Although it is interesting to watch, I can't imagine what it would have been like to have to fly in the stuff. I am curious..... since the British flew at night, and you guys flew in the daytime, did the British have foggy conditions more often, or was the British pea soup just as common during the daytime? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 17:45:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:45:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <000f01c0bb94$5ae53aa0$5e914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Heller's explaination of FIDO (not the dog) leads me to ask this somewhat related question: Can anyone tell us how frequently the oil had to be changed in those big Pratt and Whitneys? Hydraulic oil in the related systems? And, what was done with the waste, or used lubricants? (anent. burning of oil to dissipate ground fog). Was there a practical use for these depleted lubricants? It seems logical to assume that there would be great quantities of the stuff. Did the "Chemical" detachment assigned to the Group have responsibilites in this respect? I hope that some of the "silent majority" will be inspired to respond to this question, but as ever, I am grateful for any and all replies. LG. (now, I will shut up and listen). Cheers. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 18:50:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:50:39 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages References: Message-ID: <3AC8BBEE.EAC7674B@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Reur offer anent fuel ... I recall one time in a meeting (or critique?) the briefing officer mentioned that the Germans were using a horribly inferior grade of fuel. At that, some second lieutenant spoke up and said, "I don't care if they're putting aspirin tablets in water for fuel, they are gong fast enough to shoot us down!" True, the Germans did use an inferior grade of fuel, and this caused their engines to NOT last as long. But production was not the problem. As hisotry shows, they had hundreds and hundreds of first line planes at war's end, BUT HAD NO FUEL! Anmd this came from th horse's mouth, as it were. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure > an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," > you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing > ethyl fluids ? eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital > ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, > there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for > Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants > were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. > > Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used > 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, > especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any > difference in aerial combat? > > Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at > Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. > Kevin > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > > > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: William Heller > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > >of > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 18:58:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:58:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] .FOG... was Re: Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie.... References: Message-ID: <3AC8BDDC.97419B74@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... Yes, there are different types of fog. To me, I care not WHAT type it is if it hampers my ability to make a landing. I recall many times, when going up to Travis AFB from the San Francisco area and the briefing WX fellow in the WX station said, "They have a little fog up there, but is in only Thule (Toolie) fog." ... I would say, "I do not care WHAT kind it is if it hamnpers my abiblity to approach and land!" As anyone who ever took a shower knows, whenever you introduce different temperature water (or air) to different temperatures, you will have fog. And THAT is why the bathroom steams up .... When we first moved to Half Moon Bay on the golf course, we had fog every morning, but as soon as more and more homes were built ... no fog! Of course not ... the temerature changed due to all these additional homes, and did not effect the air coming in off the Ocean.... And then there is fog in the brain, of which we all had experience at one time or another .... Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Understandiing the theory behind > > FIDO, it is fairly easy to deduce the meaning of the term "invection" in a > > meteorological sense. > > I'm not sure that it is obvious to me, but if it means the opposite of > convection, I'd have to guess that it refers to fog that isn't moving > with the wind, but rather collected in a low area. I guess it might > have been easier for them to raise the temperature of the area and > control the fog if the wind wasn't bringing in new fog to replace the > old? Is this anything close? > Fog has always interested me. I used to live about 5 miles from > a river, and most mornings, it would be perfectly clear, until the fog > lifted off the river and would then drift with the wind, and would hit > us 5 miles away. We lived on a hill and could see it coming. > We now live in an area with a lot of small lakes and ponds, and if > you go to a high area you can tell where all the ponds are because > of the fog that collects over them. And if you wait for the wind to > kick up, it is interesting to watch it disturb the little pockets of fog. > Although it is interesting to watch, I can't imagine what it would > have been like to have to fly in the stuff. > I am curious..... since the British flew at night, and you guys flew > in the daytime, did the British have foggy conditions more often, or > was the British pea soup just as common during the daytime? > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 19:28:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Uwe Wiedemann) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:28:26 +0200 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi Fuel Shortages References: <3AC8BBEE.EAC7674B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <3AC8C4C9.4AD50CC4@newsfactory.net> William: Quite right! Concerning German fuel and a/c production. Best...., Uwe William Heller schrieb: > Kevin ... > > Reur offer anent fuel ... I recall one time in a meeting (or critique?) the > briefing officer mentioned that the Germans were using a horribly inferior > grade of fuel. At that, some second lieutenant spoke up and said, "I don't care > if they're putting aspirin tablets in water for fuel, they are gong fast enough > to shoot us down!" > > True, the Germans did use an inferior grade of fuel, and this caused their > engines to NOT last as long. But production was not the problem. As hisotry > shows, they had hundreds and hundreds of first line planes at war's end, BUT > HAD NO FUEL! > > Anmd this came from th horse's mouth, as it were. > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > This is an interesting subject, one I have studied in detail. I am not sure > > an all out bombing offensive was necessary against fuel targets. "What!," > > you say. According to my research, there were only three plants producing > > ethyl fluids ? eythelene dibromide and tetraeythyl lead - both vital > > ingredients for German aviation fuel. Had we destroyed those three plants, > > there would have been on aviation grade fuel available at all! (So much for > > Madgeburg, Ploesti and Leuna!) We had the intelligence and knew the plants > > were there, we just made a wrong interpretation. > > > > Now here is an even greater theory. All through the war, the Germans used > > 87 LL fuel. Had the Germans use 100 LL or greater, do any of you, > > especially you Spider, being a 51 jock, think it would ave made any > > difference in aerial combat? > > > > Yes, hindsight is 20/20. But like the failed Market Garden attempt at > > Arnhem, we had the necessary information to draw the correct conclusions. > > Kevin > > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:31:52 -0400 > > > > > >WCH, I get the picture now, thanks.( No AWACs in those days.). Part of my > > >misunderstanding was due to a story I read about U-Boats sending out > > >misleading nav. info to crews ferrying planes over the North Atlantic. The > > >key here is , if I have it right, short range and low frequencies. > > >That was an interesting aside regarding the fuel. It is odd that this was > > >not seen as the acute Achilles heel of the Nazi war machine. As you said, > > >hindsight is remarkably 20/20. Luckily the Germans made far more strategic > > >blunders ( under the fuehers guidance) than our side. Thanks again. > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: William Heller > > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > >Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:03 AM > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > > > > > > > > LJG ... > > > > > > > > The very LOCALNESS of the RANGE, as Jack pointed out, made any enemy use > > >of > > > > it, or, "srambling" of it quite moot! > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 22:06:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:06:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: --part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought we'd add a bit of local knowledge! We live in Kettering!!! Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the west of Molesworth. It has been around since about 1066, when it was mentioned in the Domesday book. Kettering did have its military connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to London and the North of England. It became the temporary home for an US Army Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the 82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day. Of course, many 303rd personnel visited Kettering, and some stayed there - especially one at least who missed his bus back to the base one Christmas Eve. He knows who he is! The Lytham that was mentioned in connection with the railway pass will be a town called Lytham St. Annes, about 10 miles south of Blackpool, on the north west coast of England. We hope to see some of you in England this year - contrary to the newspapers etc., we are not "closed for business" due to various animal ailments - it is safe to come over, and to eat the food!!!!!! Regards Robin & Sue Beeby --part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought
we'd add a bit of local knowledge!    We live in Kettering!!!

Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the
west of Molesworth.  It has been around since about 1066, when it was
mentioned in the Domesday book.      Kettering did have its military
connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to
London and the North of England.  It became the temporary home for an US Army
Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the
82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day.

Of course, many 303rd personnel visited Kettering, and some stayed there -
especially one at least who missed his bus back to the base one Christmas
Eve.  He knows who he is!


The Lytham that was mentioned in connection with the railway pass will be a
town called Lytham St. Annes, about 10 miles south of Blackpool, on the north
west coast of England.

We hope to see some of you in England this year - contrary to the newspapers
etc., we are not "closed for business"  due to various animal ailments - it
is safe to come over, and to eat the food!!!!!!

Regards

Robin & Sue Beeby
--part1_e1.128edd30.27fa43d7_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 2 22:23:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:23:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We have been very interestd in all the musings about Kettering - and thought > we'd add a bit of local knowledge! We live in Kettering!!! > > Kettering is a market town of about 80,000 people, and is 15 miles to the > west of Molesworth. It has been around since about 1066, when it was > mentioned in the Domesday book. Kettering did have its military > connections during the war, apart form being the nearest main-line station to > London and the North of England. It became the temporary home for an US Army > Engineering battalion that had been stationed in the Leicester area until the > 82nd Airborne moved there prior to D-Day. > Thanks for the info re Kettering. The RR warant I have was stamped by some office called the "RTO - US ARMY - Kettering" I don't know what RTO stands for, but I assume it must have been some travel office co-located with one of the organizations you mention above. The RR warant was for travel on the "LMS" railway company. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 02:31:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:31:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you
encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas --part1_71.c182a4b.27fa81f4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 02:57:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:57:45 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's In-Reply-To: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402155745.008a6260@ilhawaii.net> Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:38:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:38:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil cooler and back into the oil tank. As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of the same engines. Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never saw any of it leave while I was there. I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. Keep the peace Lloyd Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:51:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: Thor: Yes we saw them both a bit in 1944. They were so fast they scared the pants off me. I can't speak for everyone else, but they never caused our crew any problems. A Me 262 fired 2 rockets at us once from about a 1000 yards but we could see them coming. We pulled up and they went (the rockets) under us. Other than seeing them a few times that is the only experience I ever had with them. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:51:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's Message-ID: --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said he could see sparks flying out of the back. Terry Lucas --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born
in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight
engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought
the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said he
could see sparks flying out of the back.
Terry Lucas --part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 03:59:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:59:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's Message-ID: --part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Thor542086@aol.com writes: > Subj: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's > Date: 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time > From: Thor542086@aol.com > Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > Reply-to: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > To: jimwall@ihawaii.net > CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > > > > Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born > in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight > engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought > the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said > he > could see sparks flying out of the back. > Terry Lucas > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com> > Received: from rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com > [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 > Apr 2001 22:54:13 -0500 > Received: from pairlist.net (pairlist.net [216.92.1.92]) by > rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:54:07 -0400 > Received: from pairlist.net (localhost.pair.com [127.0.0.1]) > by pairlist.net (Postfix) with ESMTP > id A08EA5385E; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:54:06 -0400 (EDT) > Delivered-To: 303rd-talk@pairlist.net > Received: from arda.pair.com (arda.pair.com [209.68.1.133]) > by pairlist.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 019885384A > for <303rd-talk@lists.303rdbga.com>; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:52:48 -0400 > (EDT) > Received: (qmail 23522 invoked by uid 62225); 3 Apr 2001 02:52:48 -0000 > Delivered-To: glm-303rdbga:com-303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Received: (qmail 23519 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2001 02:52:47 -0000 > Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (64.12.136.164) > by arda.pair.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2001 02:52:47 -0000 > Received: from Thor542086@aol.com > by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id w.f3.8de229e (3986); > Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 -0400 (EDT) > From: Thor542086@aol.com > Message-ID: > To: jimwall@ihawaii.net > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="part1_f3.8de229e.27fa94c3_boundary" > Content-Disposition: Inline > X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10520 > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's > Sender: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > Errors-To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > X-BeenThere: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > List-Help: > List-Post: > List-Subscribe: , > > List-Id: 303rd Bomb Group Forum <303rd-talk.303rdBGA.com> > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT > > > --part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Thor542086@aol.com writes:


Subj: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262's
Date: 04/02/2001 9:54:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time
From:    Thor542086@aol.com
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To:    jimwall@ihawaii.net
CC:    303rd-talk@303rdbga.com




Thanks Jim for the information. You have a good memory. Although I was born
in 1951, I am very interested in the air war Europe. My dad was a flight
engineer on a B-24 in Italy. I have a lot of respect for you men who fought
the air war. I believe my dad encountered a Me 163 Comet one time. He said
he
could see sparks flying out of the back.
Terry Lucas

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 EDT




--part1_b0.128f2abf.27fa967a_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 04:14:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:14:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Me 262 Message-ID: <32.12e44608.27fa9a12@aol.com> --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jack for your response! I appreciate your feedback. That is really interesting about the rockets that your plane dodged! I think I remember another pilot telling me the same thing. That had to be a strange feeling. I have always wondered about bomber crews encountering a Me 262. Your gunners had to be reallly good to take out those jets. I have alot of respect for you men. Terry Lucas --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jack for your response! I appreciate your feedback. That is really
interesting about the rockets that your plane dodged! I think I remember
another pilot telling me the same thing. That had to be a strange feeling. I
have always wondered about bomber crews encountering a Me 262. Your gunners
had to be reallly good to take out those jets. I have alot of respect for you
men.
Terry Lucas --part1_32.12e44608.27fa9a12_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 04:38:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:38:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <000b01c0bbef$96536700$4a194e0c@o3n4f8> Well, Jack, first let me say this; I will. Second, I think what you have said about going to help your ground crew with maintenance is an example of your personal integrity. You don't get medals for that. What you do get is a heck of alot of well deserved respect from your ground crew. Thirdly, you can tell I have been traipsing around the war-bird pages from my gaff about the "Pratt and Whitneys" (thanks for embarrassing me, :-)) I deserved that). Fourth point, I don't think I will ever cease to be amazed at the complexities you pilots mastered at such a young age within the time span you had to inculcate, acheive, and perform all the responsibilities that rested on your young shoulders. It is no wonder you have succeeded in life. You were the cream of the crop; the best of the best. ( I am not trying to flatter you, sir; but you can be flattered if you care to be-- [ I have quit the car business, and have no ulterior motives in that regard]. I am very proud of you, and Bill Heller (hello, Sir) and every last mothers son of you all. And of my dad who also was a brave( foolish) young man). Fifth point, If I had been on your crew I'd be a better man than I am today(for fear of getting tossed out sans parachute) and I would have schmooed the Brass hats into letting us keep our heater. ( I used to be a pretty good salesman). Lastly, thanks to contributing to my seemingly insatiable appetite for the mundane, but important aspects of your time at Molesworth. PS. Thanks to all of you who, despite the seriousness of the discussions here, relieve the tension with a good heart and a true sense of humor. I would offer a toast, but I am on the "wagon". Cheers, friends. Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > cooler and back into the oil tank. > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of > the same engines. > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > Keep the peace Lloyd > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:07:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:58 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402200758.008ace40@ilhawaii.net> We were attacked by 20-30 ME-262 jets on our last mission on March 20 to Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. two b-17s went down, including the plane flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down and I believeclaims were filed for at least 5. That was mission 341. Jim walling Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:07:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:36 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010402200736.008ae840@ilhawaii.net> We were attacked by ME-262 jets on our last mission. We were bombing an oil target at Hamburg on March 20, 1945. and were hit by 20-30 jets as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-17s, including the plane flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down and i believe more were destroyed. Jim Walling Terry, We were attacked by 15-20 ME-262 jets on March 20, 2945 at Hamburg as we came off the bomb run. The group lost two B-!7s including one flying on our right wing. I saw two ME-262s go down, and I think there were claims for five. This was mission no 341. Jim Walling At 09:31 PM 4/2/01 EDT, you wrote: >>>> arialI know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? Thanks, Terry Lucas arial<<<<<<<< From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 07:23:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <61.cd02110.27fac67b@aol.com> Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. Then there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw a picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I don't drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. Good night Lloyd Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:18:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:18:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's References: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AC9875D.4BA876B@attglobal.net> --------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lucas ... Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting ... Cheers! Bill Heller Thor542086@aol.com wrote: > I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you > encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? > Thanks, Terry Lucas --------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lucas ...

Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting  ...

Cheers!

Bill Heller

Thor542086@aol.com wrote:

I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you
encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters?
Thanks, Terry Lucas
--------------DF899F8E41B16A361BB98CFB-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:36:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 04:36:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <61.cd02110.27fac67b@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c0bc19$400445c0$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> Jack, you can try, but you can't embarrass me, ( I do well enough on my own). [ please have a grin on me, Jack. It's free , and I love it.]. You are successful , Jack. I drink like a thirsty fish, that's why I often make an ass of myself, and why I am "on the wagon". (ginger ale is about the best I can do in the clinches) . Jack, I have been shot at twice, but never in a war; missed getting killed both times by a slim margin right here in the good old USA minding my own business in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would volunteer for a low level mission to Schwienfurt rather than drive to Orlando , or Tampa. ( The Japs thought they had Kamakazee pilots, HA!) The Elite of all Kamakazi's can be found on I-4 flying low level on your six o:clock.). Like I told Bill Heller awhile back, I wish it had been me who had to face that war, but it wasn't. I would hope that in the clinches I would have measured up. Thank you. ( hope the web meister will forgive this small transgression :-) late at night. Let's not get in the habit of it tho!). Bon Soir, mes amis. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I > understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with > one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. Then > there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw a > picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I don't > drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with > strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to > have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one > fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. Good > night Lloyd > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 09:52:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 04:52:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's References: <71.c182a4b.27fa81f4@aol.com> <3AC9875D.4BA876B@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <002301c0bc1b$7bd269e0$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> Mr. Heller, what is this? A display of good natured humor? not funny then; but gallandly (sp) so in retrospect. Thanks for the image. It will be hard to explain why I am laughing, but it will be the thought of Me163's propelled by bumble bee farts. I hope you are not offended, Mr. Heller, but that is a very funny analogy. Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:18 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's > Terry Lucas ... > > Yes, on several occasions I encountered the Me 262 and only ONCE SAW an > Me163 which looked like a little bumblebee farting ... > > Cheers! > > Bill Heller > > Thor542086@aol.com wrote: > > > I know they didn't appear until later in the war, but, did any of you > > encounter any Me 262 jet fighters or Me 163 rocket fighters? > > Thanks, Terry Lucas > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 13:09:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:09:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thor: Yes we saw them both a bit in 1944. They were so fast they scared the > pants off me. On the 16mm movie that I have, which for the most part is just slow panning at a few B-17s flying along side, at one point, the view is of a single contrail, and the person taking the picture is obviously trying to follow it to what caused it, because the view ends when the edge of the window shows up. I'm guessing it is one of those jet or rocket planes that flew by, and it was so fast that they couldn't get it into the picture, unfortunately, so all I have is a picture of the vapor trail (the B-17s weren't leaving a trail at the time). ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 13:55:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:55:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: What was it about British trains that you never knew when they started up? (Awkward English there)....When the American steam locomotives did so, you were yanked off your feet, whereas the Brit models just glided up and away. Kettering was a place of many emotions....leaving on a two-day pass to London and then returning to the rigors of combat...what a contrast! Good wishes to you in Ketteriing from Boynton Beach, Florida. Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35M. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 14:02:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:02:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <6a.cb559a2.27fb23c8@aol.com> The first time we encountered the German rocket plane we gazed in wonderment at something that could fly that fast...vertically. Like how many rads lead do you give a target like that? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 14:15:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:15:00 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <81.9151763.27fb26d4@aol.com> When I lived in the Hartford Conn. area, home of Pratt & Whitney (E.Hfd.) a familiar sight was the Fort they'd converted with a massive single engine in the nose....thus a five- engined B-17. The aircraft had been retired to the collection of the then Connecticut Aeronautical Historical Ass'n. (CAHA) and unfortunately was destroyed along with two dozen venerable flying treasures in a violent tornado. Imagine all these irreplaceable sky wonders, wing to wing in a small compound, all trying to fly at once. It was the sorriest sight I've ever seen. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 15:17:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:17:25 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <81.9151763.27fb26d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c0bc48$d0493620$8b8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob Hand, Not far from where I live , at the Fantasy of Flight in Polk City, Kermit Weeks owns a B-17 that may hold the World record for a pilotless take off and landing. This plane flew about two miles when Hurricane Andrew whammed into Homestead, Fl. Fortunately , this plane survived tho it sustained damage to the left wing. It is presently on static display. Cheers. ( I highly recommend a visit next time youre in the Sunshine State). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > When I lived in the Hartford Conn. area, home of Pratt & Whitney (E.Hfd.) a > familiar sight was the Fort they'd converted with a massive single engine in > the nose....thus a five- engined B-17. The aircraft had been retired to the > collection of the then Connecticut Aeronautical Historical Ass'n. (CAHA) and > unfortunately was destroyed along with two dozen venerable flying treasures > in a violent tornado. Imagine all these irreplaceable sky wonders, wing to > wing in a small compound, all trying to fly at once. It was the sorriest > sight I've ever seen. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 15:23:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:23:22 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <20010403.092325.-602305.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Jim, I wasn't on #341 to Hamburg but I have two friends who were. Possibly you know them. SSGT Chester Maluchnik, RO on the Francis Taub Crew, 358th Sqd. They were flying #43-39160, one of the two aircraft lost in the ME-262 attack. Chet got out okay and was a POW. I will have breakfast with him tomorrow morning so should you have a message for him let me know. The other friend was on the Denison Crew, 427th Sqd. Walter D O'hearn, TG. He is credited with downing one of the 262's. Regards.....Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 16:37:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:37:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hey guys! Jack you are 100% correct, Sentimental Journey, a CAF B-17, recently visited Kansas City and, of course, I was there when she landed. (Always was a sucker for those Wright Cyclones!) After she taxied to her hard stand and powered down her engines, I stood on my tippy toes to take a look at those awesome engines. Imagine my surprise when not one but all of those engines had a Pratt & Whitney stamp on them! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT > >Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I >understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with >one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. >Then >there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw >a >picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I >don't >drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with >strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to >have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one >fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. >Good >night Lloyd > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 17:04:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:04:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <5a.136c6408.27fb4ea5@aol.com> Terry: Had an unusual look at a ME 262 when one buzzed Staglag Luft ! one spring day in 1945... made several passes at less than 1000 feet so the camp had a good look.... quite impressive! Will From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 16:45:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:45:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <20010403.104537.-472603.0.billrunnels@juno.com> In reviewing the assembly charts for #341, my friend Chet was in the aircraft on your right wing that was lost. Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 17:51:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:51:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Boy Rencher beat me to it Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was not > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I remember. > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was pumped > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts of > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an oil > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch of > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil that > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > cooler and back into the oil tank. > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE 60 > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was a > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because they > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out of > the same engines. > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not between > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. Now > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > Keep the peace Lloyd > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:05:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:05:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs References: Message-ID: <3ACA02DD.1D0C7DE4@attglobal.net> Bob Hand ... I keep wondering why you went to London from Kettering when all the rest of us from Molesworth left from Bedford ... As for British trains, no matter where you go in Europe (and the UK) you will find much better train service than ANYWHERE in the US! In fact we could rebuild our train service and help a lot of people. Ah, but you are correct ... the emotion of it all. Riding to london on a little leave and then returning to you know what. Cheers! WCH Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > What was it about British trains that you never knew when they started up? > (Awkward English there)....When the American steam locomotives did so, you > were yanked off your feet, whereas the Brit models just glided up and away. > Kettering was a place of many emotions....leaving on a two-day pass to London > and then returning to the rigors of combat...what a contrast! Good wishes to > you in Ketteriing from Boynton Beach, Florida. > Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35M. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:27:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <003501c0bc63$6512f7e0$771b4e0c@o3n4f8> Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you tho). I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Boy Rencher beat me to it > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was > not > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > remember. > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > pumped > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts > of > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an > oil > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch > of > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil > that > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE > 60 > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was > a > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because > they > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out > of > > the same engines. > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > between > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us > take > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. > Now > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 19:05:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:05:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: <27.1351b851.27fb6afc@aol.com> Bob Hand, I think the English train moved out smoothly because of the type of coupling between the cars. American trains have about 10 or 12 inches of slack in each hitch between the cars. This allows the engine to start each car moving before the one behind. it starts to move. This allows a smaller engine to start a bigger train but causes the "jerk" The trains in Europe do not have this slack. The whole train starts at once When the engine moves one inch the rear car moves one inch. I should say when the American engine moves one inch the next car doesn't move at all. In Europe when the engine moves 2.54 centimeters The rear car and all the others move 2.54 centimeters Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 18:27:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <001101c0bc5e$5fdf6ec0$55f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <000201c0bc74$10d9a0a0$47194e0c@o3n4f8> Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you tho). I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Boy Rencher beat me to it > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I was > not > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? the > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > remember. > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had Wright > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker and > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an oil > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what is > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > pumped > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and lubricated > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior parts > of > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had an > oil > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop pitch > of > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from the > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine oil > that > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to feather > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in the > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the oil > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably SAE > 60 > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption was > a > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and told > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil leaks > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine because > they > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours out > of > > the same engines. > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > between > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us > take > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a charm. > Now > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 20:59:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:59:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hve been to Polk City and Fantasy, and it was tremendous....Weeks is the ultimate collector! I live in Boynton Beach, been here for 14 years. Thanks for the info. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:04:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:04:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <89.4ab6c1f.27fb86e6@aol.com> Speaking of which, have you ever played the CD "Round Sounds" IN YOUR CAR? Good grief, what an extraordinary treat....guaranteed to grin you from ear to ear. They have come out with Vol.2, which has the run-up of a Fortress. That's got to be awesome. I played it for my wife and she thinks I'm nuts. Played it for the grandkids real loud and scared the hell out of 'em. Whatever turns you on. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:42:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:42:46 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <009201c0bc83$78a08fa0$720110ac@Betac.com> Bill - I know FIDO was common for the Brits, flying night missions, but didn't think any 8AF airfields had it. (???) Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: William Heller To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > LJG ... > > FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby trenches > were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these > ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the aerdrome. > The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane to > land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added and > there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, lighted > and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small > pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE > BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 21:48:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:48:39 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields References: Message-ID: <009301c0bc83$7b585ca0$720110ac@Betac.com> ?? This is a new one to me. I learned something today. Brian M ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Fuel Suply to Engish Airfields > Here is a snipit I learned during my last trip across the pond. As we were > traversing the countryside of East Anglia from one heavy bomber station to > another, primarily on back country roads, we kept passing all of these > bright yellow plastic poles sticking out of the ground, seemingly > everywhere! I finally asked my driver, Ray Jude, a dedicated member of the > East Anglian Aviation Society, what all those yellow poles were. Ray has > done considerable research on the subject and said they marked the "petrol" > lines to each aerodrome. In doing his research, he could not get the Crown > to release any information about the location of these "petrol" lines. Even > after 55 years, this information is still classified by the English > Government. Do any of our UK friends have any additional information on > this topic? > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 22:37:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:37:13 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #219 - 13 msgs Message-ID: Thanks Jack....sure makes sense the way you explain it. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 3 23:26:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:26:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > During 1944 had many many barrels > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > it down. My father never talked to me at all about missions he flew on, but he did tell me about how cold it was in the winter there. He told me that someone found a supply of WAX (I may have remembered this wrong), however the wax didn't burn very well, so apparently one of the men there, who was a chemical engineer, constructed some elaborate device whereby they suspended the wax over the top of the stove so that the heat melted it, and got it to drip slowly either onto or into (not sure) the stove, however it still didn't provide much heat, so the guy added another device that dropped a drop of water with each drop of wax. He said that it was critical to time the drops of oil and water, and that they sizzled when they hit the hot stove. He claimed that the combination of the heat and the water "cracked" the wax into more volatile hydrocarbons that burned better, and that after they did that, they had plenty of heat. This whole story made no sense to me, and my suspicion was that they just thought that they had more heat because of the increased humidity from the water, but it was still an interesting story, especially valued because it was one of the few things that my father discussed about the war. I'm curious whether anyone remembers such a contraption? Actually, with the way decades alter peoples memories, it is possible that he was describing the oil device above, but just got the fuels wrong. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 00:49:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:49:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <003d01c0bc98$c8546980$83f833cf@richards> Bill: The wax was the wax coated rings from around the 500 lb Bombs they were used to allow the bombs to be rolled along the ground without breaking the hanging rings which fastened the bombs to the shackles in the Bomb Bay. We burned these in our BOQ when we couldn't get coal. Incidentally one of my first experiences when I got assigned to the 360th was a Coat Raid run by the guys in the barracks. We had briefing and certain guys were assigned to do a stealth mission to keep the Brit guards busy so the other men could get through the fence to get coal . We had a debriefing after the mission and we all donated our goodies from our mailed packages from home so we could celebrate a successful mission. Good story huh SPIDER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > During 1944 had many many barrels > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I never > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap B17s. > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It took > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut and > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration of > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night raids > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made us take > > it down. > > My father never talked to me at all about missions he flew on, but > he did tell me about how cold it was in the winter there. He told > me that someone found a supply of WAX (I may have remembered > this wrong), however the wax didn't burn very well, so apparently > one of the men there, who was a chemical engineer, constructed > some elaborate device whereby they suspended the wax over the > top of the stove so that the heat melted it, and got it to drip slowly > either onto or into (not sure) the stove, however it still didn't provide > much heat, so the guy added another device that dropped a drop of > water with each drop of wax. He said that it was critical to time the > drops of oil and water, and that they sizzled when they hit the hot > stove. He claimed that the combination of the heat and the water > "cracked" the wax into more volatile hydrocarbons that burned > better, and that after they did that, they had plenty of heat. This > whole story made no sense to me, and my suspicion was that they > just thought that they had more heat because of the increased > humidity from the water, but it was still an interesting story, > especially valued because it was one of the few things that my > father discussed about the war. > I'm curious whether anyone remembers such a contraption? > Actually, with the way decades alter peoples memories, it is > possible that he was describing the oil device above, but just got > the fuels wrong. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 04:13:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:13:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <000b01c0bcb5$3ba75b60$9f194e0c@o3n4f8> here is a cunundrum. The Wright engines were original right( I mean, correct?). P&W's could be substituted, and even Allisons... Where were Lycombing and Continental while all this was going on? Now I am really confused. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Hey guys! Jack you are 100% correct, Sentimental Journey, a CAF B-17, > recently visited Kansas City and, of course, I was there when she landed. > (Always was a sucker for those Wright Cyclones!) After she taxied to her > hard stand and powered down her engines, I stood on my tippy toes to take a > look at those awesome engines. Imagine my surprise when not one but all of > those engines had a Pratt & Whitney stamp on them! > Kevin > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT > > > >Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. I > >understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying with > >one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. > >Then > >there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but saw > >a > >picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I > >don't > >drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with > >strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be proud to > >have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is one > >fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. > >Good > >night Lloyd > > Jack Rencher > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 05:34:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:34:55 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Lloyd, Wright and P & W both built high horsepower radials one row Like a B17. 2 row like a B24 and 4 row like a B29. Lycombing and Contrinental aircraft engines as far as I know are horizontal opposed engines with 4 or 6 cylinders and most with horsepower between 85 and up to about 300. The big radials could go up to over 2000 HP. This was in the good? old days. I don't know what they are doing now during these bad young days. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 09:10:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 01:10:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie References: <000201c0ba3e$9c7f48e0$ebb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC6D2D2.E9251554@attglobal.net> <001601c0bac9$4feb7e00$deb34d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC77C5F.76B80E9F@attglobal.net> <000901c0bb00$03dbbb60$2c904d0c@o3n4f8> <3AC81880.7A58CE19@attglobal.net> <009201c0bc83$78a08fa0$720110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <3ACAD6F9.618B845D@attglobal.net> BMcG ... I do not think any 8th Bases had FIDO either. And mostly it was not even at a particular RAF Base, but at an airfield used in an emergency. I know of one near Manston, but know little of the others. It was an idea to solve an instant problem and later, of course, more sophisticted ways were introduced. Cheers! WCH Brian McGuire wrote: > Bill - > I know FIDO was common for the Brits, flying night missions, but didn't > think any 8AF airfields had it. (???) > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Heller > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Name of 303rd Buncher Beacon/Darkie > > > LJG ... > > > > FIDO, or Fog Invection Dispersal Operation ... is a system whereby > trenches > > were builkt along and well to the SIDE of the runway to be used. In these > > ditches was put oil which was burned when denses fog enveloped the > aerdrome. > > The heat from the burning oil dispersed the fog sufficiently for the plane > to > > land. This was used only for emergencies. Later, more sophistication added > and > > there were pipes in the ditches from which the oil could be emitted, > lighted > > and could do the job. Later, there was even more sophistication and small > > pipes, like jets, were used. But, the effect was the same. HEAT FROM THE > > BURNING OIL DISPERSED THE FOG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 13:43:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:43:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: <4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109@aol.com> --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, do you remember or have you heard of Merlin Miller with the 427th squadron? He was on Hullar's plane as a tailgunner. He is from Dugger IN. I see him about twice a week and I will ask he if he remembers you or Walter D. O'Hearn. Terry Lucas --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, do you remember or have you heard of Merlin Miller with the 427th
squadron? He was on Hullar's plane as a tailgunner. He is from Dugger IN. I
see him about twice a week and I will ask he if he remembers you or Walter D.
O'Hearn.
Terry Lucas --part1_4f.9c2eaa4.27fc7109_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 13:04:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:04:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Merlin Miller Message-ID: <20010404.070448.-355525.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Terry, I was with the 360th Sqd. and didn't have the pleasure of knowing Merlin Miller. I didn't meet Don O'hearn until after the war when we formed the Minnesota Chapter of The 8th Air Force Historical Society. Take care, Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:21:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:21:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <49.9bcedb7.27fc79df@aol.com> The fuel allotted to us was coke, which is coal with the gases burned out. We used to use it in the Brooklyn tenement I lived in. The burnt residue was shoveled in sort of a shaker on top of the ash barrel and the ash fell through, leaving burnable coke on top. Knowing this, I used to "filter" the ash from other barracks and could often come up with a shovelful of burnable fuel. And those raids on the coke pile adjacent to the chapel were something else. One night someone rammed a truck through the fence and we had a major haul. Needless to say our brilliant leader directed a search for the stolen loot in our barracks and invoked a fine of a pound for every pound of coke discovered. We did burn those bomb rings although they had to be cut to fit into the potbellystove, which was one hell of a job even with an axe. Cheers and Memories.....Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:43:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:43:27 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Milo Minderbinder Message-ID: Lloyd: Who is Milo Minderbinder. I go to a bar in Phoenix called Minderbinders. Always was curious where the name came from. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 > >Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you >tho). >I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe >Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Dick Smith >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Boy Rencher beat me to it > > Spider > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I >was > > not > > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? >the > > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > > remember. > > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had >Wright > > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker >and > > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an >oil > > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what >is > > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > > pumped > > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and >lubricated > > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior >parts > > of > > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had >an > > oil > > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop >pitch > > of > > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from >the > > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine >oil > > that > > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to >feather > > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in >the > > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the >oil > > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably >SAE > > 60 > > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption >was > > a > > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and >told > > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil >leaks > > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine >because > > they > > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours >out > > of > > > the same engines. > > > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > > between > > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > > barrels > > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I >never > > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > > B17s. > > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > > took > > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut >and > > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration >of > > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night >raids > > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made >us > > take > > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a >charm. > > Now > > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 14:51:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:51:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Round Sounds Message-ID: Bob: We've talked about Round Sounds before, but I too play this in my JEEP that has the best sound system I've ever had in a car. The looks I get a stoplights could stop your heart! And I must admit I have one awesome stereo at home - four large Altec Model 8s with 100 watts per channel driving them. When you hear those big radials come to life at about 60 wpc, even your bones vibrate! I watched a Dauntless SBD fire up at te CAF once and my stereo come very close to the real McCoy. I particularly like on RS #1, when the two birds taxi back to their hard stands and power down their engines! Wow! Bob, I thought I was the only nut to enjoy the hell out of these sounds! I was written up in our local paper a few years ago and they asked me about my "Favorite Music." Of course I responded with, "The deep-throated roar of four R1820-97 Wright Cylcones at full throttle!" Cuidate mucho! Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:04:54 EDT > >Speaking of which, have you ever played the CD "Round Sounds" IN YOUR CAR? >Good grief, what an extraordinary treat....guaranteed to grin you from ear >to >ear. They have come out with Vol.2, which has the run-up of a Fortress. >That's got to be awesome. I played it for my wife and she thinks I'm >nuts. >Played it for the grandkids real loud and scared the hell out of 'em. >Whatever turns you on. Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 15:02:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:02:20 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: Hi Lloyd, Pratt & Whitneys can be substituted for the Wright Cyclones with a few modification for the mounting brackets in the engine nacelle, according to the flight engineer on Sentimental Journey I spoke with. But Allison built V-12s for installation in P-40s and the original P-51s. You could very very stick a V-12 in the engine nacelle of a Fort without extensive modification. Don't have any idea about Lycoming or Continental. I still wish Lockheed would have produced a P-38 with Rolls Royce Merlins! They did build one prototype, but the massive amount of redesign work and resulting costs made it prohibitive to produce on a mass scale. Plus, by that point in the war, the P-51s were getting the job done. The info I've read on the Merlin powered P-38 says it outperformed everything in the sky with a piston engine, including the P-51 and FW-190s. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:13:29 -0400 > >here is a cunundrum. The Wright engines were original right( I mean, >correct?). P&W's could be substituted, and even Allisons... Where were >Lycombing and Continental while all this was going on? Now I am really >confused. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kevin Pearson >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:37 AM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > Hey guys! Jack you are 100% correct, Sentimental Journey, a CAF B-17, > > recently visited Kansas City and, of course, I was there when she >landed. > > (Always was a sucker for those Wright Cyclones!) After she taxied to >her > > hard stand and powered down her engines, I stood on my tippy toes to >take >a > > look at those awesome engines. Imagine my surprise when not one but all >of > > those engines had a Pratt & Whitney stamp on them! > > Kevin > > > > > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:23:55 EDT > > > > > >Dear Friend Lloyd, Please don't be embarrassed. That was not my intent. >I > > >understand the Confederated Air Force in Mesa Arizona has a B17 flying >with > > >one or two Pratt & Whitneys in it. I don't know if this is true or not. > > >Then > > >there was a B17 some time ago with 4 Allisons in it. I never saw it but >saw > > >a > > >picture of it. No 2. What ever made you think I am successful? No 3. I > > >don't > > >drink either. We could drink our toast with skim milk. I like mine with > > >strawberry jam but it doesn't drink to good that way. No 4. I'd be >proud >to > > >have a person like you on our crew. No 5 I like Bill Heller too. He is >one > > >fine American and was and is a real asset to the 303rd Bomb Group.No 6. > > >Good > > >night Lloyd > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 15:41:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:41:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Round Sounds Message-ID: <9f.1384283f.27fc8cb5@aol.com> The word awesome was invented for RS! My wife couldn't believe I was so fired up on hearing it in the car....only played it to headsets before. Have a birthday coming up on the 16th and have laid on the hints about RS2. Hope it gets thrown in the budget hat this payday! Good listening and Cheers! Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 04:33:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:33:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <89.4ab6c1f.27fb86e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c0bd1d$fd3cdee0$82b34d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, I forgot that you were a Floridian also. Mr. Weeks has done a hell of a job. I think I will ask him to give me a job there. Hey, check out Xeno's Warbird page. Take a flight lesson in a B-17. No charge if you have a decent edition of Real Player. Anent your sound effects; I often wish I had a good recording of some 50's hooked to a loud speaker under the hood of my truck. Guarantee I'd scramble a few SUV kamakazee types and teach them better road manners. ( Wishful thinking) Saaay, Bob, you don't own an SUV do you...? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Speaking of which, have you ever played the CD "Round Sounds" IN YOUR CAR? > Good grief, what an extraordinary treat....guaranteed to grin you from ear to > ear. They have come out with Vol.2, which has the run-up of a Fortress. > That's got to be awesome. I played it for my wife and she thinks I'm nuts. > Played it for the grandkids real loud and scared the hell out of 'em. > Whatever turns you on. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 16:48:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:48:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter References: Message-ID: <000d01c0bd1e$bac95880$82b34d0c@o3n4f8> Cheers Jack. Thank you. ( I was kidding about Lycombing and Continental although they two of the most reliable engine manufacturer in Civil Aviation). Back to the books for me, now I know what to look for. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > Lloyd, Wright and P & W both built high horsepower radials one row Like a > B17. 2 row like a B24 and 4 row like a B29. Lycombing and Contrinental > aircraft engines as far as I know are horizontal opposed engines with 4 or 6 > cylinders and most with horsepower between 85 and up to about 300. The big > radials could go up to over 2000 HP. This was in the good? old days. I don't > know what they are doing now during these bad young days. > Jack > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 16:58:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:58:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history Message-ID: Monday and Tue, I watched parts 1,2 and 3 of a 6 part documentary on the Nazis on the History channel. It has been the best show on the subject that I have seen to date. I have learned a lot. I think part 4 is coming up tonight. The way the History channel repeats things, I'm sure that it will be broadcast again, and if so, I highly recommend it. So far, the show has covered the period between WW1 and the time that the UK entered the war, and has given a lot of insight with respect to how and why Hitler gained power, and why the German public followed him. The show had all sorts of film footage that I've never seen before, and goes into great detail with respect to each event that led to WWII. It also had numerous interviews of many of the actual people involved, most of which were not the usual blame it on someone else type of thing, but were very informative about why they did what they did. I have no idea of what is covered in the remaining 3 episodes, but I think it would be worth watching. On another subject, a couple days ago I watched a movie that I think was called Air Force, which described the group of B-17s that were flying into Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked. Very interesting. It is my understanding that the ground crews from that organization became the 427th, but I wasn't sure of what happened to the air crews. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 17:16:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:16:20 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <85.9286ec3.27fca2d4@aol.com> Naw, teeny tiny Saturn that I can hardly get in and out of. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 17:52:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:52:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Division/wing organizational question. Message-ID: In reading, I notice that originally, the 303rd was in the 1st Bomb Wing, but later it was part of the 103rd Provisional Bomb Wing, which was part of the 1st Bomb Division, and later was in the 41st CBW. My question is, was the 1st Bomb Division the same thing as the 1st Bomb Wing, with just a name change? Also, what does the term "Provisional" in the 103rd PCBW imply, was it not an official organizational change at that point? I read that the headquarters of the 103rd PCBW was based at Molesworth. Was the 41st CBW also later based at Molesworth as well, or was that somewhere else? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 17:08:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:08:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter References: <49.9bcedb7.27fc79df@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0bd31$d5e6e520$de904d0c@o3n4f8> Bob, you know it sounds like you guys spent most of the time trying to keep from freezing to death. I would have thought the powers that were would have worked out a better deal for you considering. (Everytime I think it's getting too hot in Florida, I just have to call up my last Winter in Montana.) T/Up. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter > The fuel allotted to us was coke, which is coal with the gases burned out. > We used to use it in the Brooklyn tenement I lived in. The burnt residue was > shoveled in sort of a shaker on top of the ash barrel and the ash fell > through, leaving burnable coke on top. Knowing this, I used to "filter" the > ash from other barracks and could often come up with a shovelful of burnable > fuel. And those raids on the coke pile adjacent to the chapel were something > else. One night someone rammed a truck through the fence and we had a major > haul. Needless to say our brilliant leader directed a search for the stolen > loot in our barracks and invoked a fine of a pound for every pound of coke > discovered. We did burn those bomb rings although they had to be cut to fit > into the potbellystove, which was one hell of a job even with an axe. > Cheers and Memories.....Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 19:15:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 13:15:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: In looking over a number of pictures from the war, I see planes dropping bombs all at once and then one after another. I believe this is called salvoing and dropping in train, respectively. Which methose was used more frequently? Dropping in train would seem to spread the bombs over a very wide area, where the salvo method would concentrate more bombs on target. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 19:27:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:27:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Milo Minderbinder References: Message-ID: <000d01c0bd34$ebf00a60$de904d0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, perhaps one of my all time favorite fictions about WWII is "Catch 22" ( you have definately heard this expression I am sure) written by Joeseph Heller (no immediate relation to our BILL HELLER ). Milo Minderbinder is a young pilot in a B-25 Group operating out of Italy who, through various entrepenural enterprises becomes operating officer for what is called the Syndicate. Everyone is a member, including the Germans. The syndicate (Milo Minderbinder) provides for the creature comforts and needs of all combatants. The profits from the Syndicate "belong to everyone". Milo contracts with the Germans to bomb his own base with his groups' bombers. It is cost effective, and "everyone (all being defacto share holders) benefits. I have read this book about 12 times over the years. My first reading at the age of 17, my last at the age of 53. ( The book is offensive to many AAF veterans; probably because they misinterpret the existential and social commentary that is between the lines.) The book is a classic, and according to Mr. Heller was in no way ever intended to demean the courage and valor of the men who served in the AAF. If you cannot find the book, I will gladly send you one of my copies. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:43 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: [303rd-Talk]Milo Minderbinder > Lloyd: Who is Milo Minderbinder. I go to a bar in Phoenix called > Minderbinders. Always was curious where the name came from. > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0400 > > > >Jacks' reply pretty well covered it, Dick. (Im saving one back for you > >tho). > >I still wonder what became of all that used oil and other detris. Maybe > >Milo Minderbinder traded it to the Germans ...? Thumbs up. LG. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Dick Smith > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > > > > Boy Rencher beat me to it > > > Spider > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lube , Oil, and Filter > > > > > > > > > > Lloyd, let it be known the undersigned was a pilot, but when knew I > >was > > > not > > > > going to fly a mission tomorrow I did go over on the line and help? > >the > > > > mechanics. So I'm going to tell you what I think I know as best I > > > remember. > > > > First: The Pratt & Whitneys were in the B24s. The B17Gs & F's had > >Wright > > > > R1830-97 engines. Beside Wright they were manufactured by Studebaker > >and > > > > Buick. They were all basically identical. Each of the 4 engines had an > >oil > > > > tank in the nacelle that held about 37 or 38 gallons. They had what > >is > > > > called a dry sump. That means the oil that lubricated the engine was > > > pumped > > > > from the oil tank through the main bearings into the engine and > >lubricated > > > > the rods bearings, Main bearings, pistons, valves and all interior > >parts > > > of > > > > the engine. It also supplied engine oil to the prop governor that had > >an > > > oil > > > > pump in it that supplied oil to the prop dome that controlled prop > >pitch > > > of > > > > the blades that then controlled the speed of the engine.as set from > >the > > > > cockpit. There was another independent oil pump that supplied engine > >oil > > > that > > > > passed through the governor to the prop dome that was used only to > >feather > > > > and unfeather the prop. There was an other pump called a sump pump in > >the > > > > bottom of the engine that pumped the oil out of the sump through the > >oil > > > > cooler and back into the oil tank. > > > > As the engines were air cooled and ran quite hot the oil was probably > >SAE > > > 60 > > > > or 70 and was supplied to us in 55 gallon drums. They oil consumption > >was > > > a > > > > good indication for the mechanics of the condition of the engine. and > >told > > > > them when the engine needed to be exchanged for a rebuilt one. Oil > >leaks > > > > didn't count. We were lucky to get 300 to 400 hours on an engine > >because > > > they > > > > were really abused. In commercial use we could get 1000 to 1200 hours > >out > > > of > > > > the same engines. > > > > > > > > Now for the oil changes. I don't know if they ever changed it or not > > > between > > > > engine changes. I know in the 358th Sqdn. During 1944 had many many > > > barrels > > > > of used oil around the area that was supposed to go be re-refined. I > >never > > > > saw any of it leave while I was there. > > > > > > > > I got and old oxygen bottle and some big tubing out of some scrap > > > B17s. > > > > Took my 45 and shot a hole in the bottom of our pot bellied stove. (It > > > took > > > > about 8 or 9 shots) mounted the oxygen bottle on the side of our hut > >and > > > > piped in the used oil into the hot fire from our 2 day per week ration > >of > > > > coke. It worked great and we had a warm hut without making night > >raids > > > > through a hole in fence to the coke pile. The used oil made excellent > > > > supplemental fuel and we used it about 2 months until the Brass made > >us > > > take > > > > it down. I'll admit it didn't look too pretty but worked like a > >charm. > > > Now > > > > you know not all I know about oil but enough I hope. > > > > Keep the peace Lloyd > > > > Jack Rencher > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 19:34:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:34:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history References: Message-ID: <000101c0bd3e$0f3dbc20$a01b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bill, I think that those B-17s WERE the original 427th Sq. No doubt the facts will reveal themselves as there are some 427 guys here. Mr. Lamme? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history > Monday and Tue, I watched parts 1,2 and 3 of a 6 part > documentary on the Nazis on the History channel. It has been the > best show on the subject that I have seen to date. I have learned a > lot. I think part 4 is coming up tonight. The way the History > channel repeats things, I'm sure that it will be broadcast again, and > if so, I highly recommend it. > So far, the show has covered the period between WW1 and the > time that the UK entered the war, and has given a lot of insight with > respect to how and why Hitler gained power, and why the German > public followed him. > The show had all sorts of film footage that I've never seen before, > and goes into great detail with respect to each event that led to > WWII. It also had numerous interviews of many of the actual > people involved, most of which were not the usual blame it on > someone else type of thing, but were very informative about why > they did what they did. > I have no idea of what is covered in the remaining 3 episodes, but > I think it would be worth watching. > > On another subject, a couple days ago I watched a movie that I > think was called Air Force, which described the group of B-17s that > were flying into Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked. Very > interesting. It is my understanding that the ground crews from that > organization became the 427th, but I wasn't sure of what happened > to the air crews. > > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 20:29:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: <20010404.142913.-469297.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Kevin, while I was there in 1945 we salvoed on my fourteen missions. This gave a more intense impact governed by the formation pattern. However, trailing the drop had great flexibility also. The distance between each bomb at impact could be set between 7 and 750 feet. If we had been dropping individually, the trail would have been more effective Regards. Bill Runnels, bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 21:33:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Donald Kehne) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:33:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <20010404160437.DF1FA53798@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3ACB8528.320595B4@umuc.edu> My uncle, Roy Q. Smith, was flight engineer with the 427th from its activation until June 43. Prior to his assignment to the 427th, he was flew B-17s from Boeing's Seattle plant to bases in the West. In late '41 his unit (I don't have the group number with me) received orders to transfer to the Phillipines. On December 7, 1941, he and the rest of his unit's air crews were enroute to Hawaii by boat when they received word of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Their transport immediately returned to San Francisco. (He recalled the Army base didn't have enough room in the barracks for all those Air Corps crews, so they had to camp in Golden Gate Park -- without tents!) After some time there, the crews were reassigned to air bases around the country. I got the impression that many of the 427th, if not the 303rd, came from that pool of men. I wish could get more information for you, but I'm sad to say that my uncle passed away in December. > > On another subject, a couple days ago I watched a movie that I > think was called Air Force, which described the group of B-17s that > were flying into Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked. Very > interesting. It is my understanding that the ground crews from that > organization became the 427th, but I wasn't sure of what happened > to the air crews. > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 22:13:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:13:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history Message-ID: Isn't that movie called "Operation Pacific?" starring Gregory Hunter as the pilot. And isn't it Midway they land on and not Pearl. Pretty good flick, but the Forts are decked out in 91st BG (Triangle A) markings. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:34:33 -0400 > >Bill, I think that those B-17s WERE the original 427th Sq. No doubt the >facts will reveal themselves as there are some 427 guys here. Mr. Lamme? >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Jones >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 11:58 AM >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history > > > > Monday and Tue, I watched parts 1,2 and 3 of a 6 part > > documentary on the Nazis on the History channel. It has been the > > best show on the subject that I have seen to date. I have learned a > > lot. I think part 4 is coming up tonight. The way the History > > channel repeats things, I'm sure that it will be broadcast again, and > > if so, I highly recommend it. > > So far, the show has covered the period between WW1 and the > > time that the UK entered the war, and has given a lot of insight with > > respect to how and why Hitler gained power, and why the German > > public followed him. > > The show had all sorts of film footage that I've never seen before, > > and goes into great detail with respect to each event that led to > > WWII. It also had numerous interviews of many of the actual > > people involved, most of which were not the usual blame it on > > someone else type of thing, but were very informative about why > > they did what they did. > > I have no idea of what is covered in the remaining 3 episodes, but > > I think it would be worth watching. > > > > On another subject, a couple days ago I watched a movie that I > > think was called Air Force, which described the group of B-17s that > > were flying into Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked. Very > > interesting. It is my understanding that the ground crews from that > > organization became the 427th, but I wasn't sure of what happened > > to the air crews. > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 22:20:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:20:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Bill: I have a new, Norden bombsight in the original box with original placards. A bombardier in Minneapolis had three and gave (GAVE!) me one, despite my many offers to buy it. I have absolutely no idea how the thing works. I even have the other gizmo (a gyro stabalizer, I think he called it). Is there any place where I could buy a book(s) on how this thing operates. I've had it for about two years, was going to donate it to a museum, but decided to find out how it works first. If you have any suggestions, I would appreciate hearing from you. You do not have to try and explain it in an e-mail because I think it would be far too technical for me to understand. Once I figure out how it works, I will donate it to either the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn or the American Air Museum at Duxford. And thanks for your comments about the intervolometer. Was this connected to the bomb sight? Or did you set it manually? Kevin >From: Bill L Runnels >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:29:11 -0500 > >Kevin, while I was there in 1945 we salvoed on my fourteen missions. >This gave a more intense impact governed by the formation pattern. >However, trailing the drop had great flexibility also. The distance >between each bomb at impact could be set between 7 and 750 feet. If we >had been dropping individually, the trail would have been more effective > >Regards. Bill Runnels, bombardier > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 23:47:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:47:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Isn't that movie called "Operation Pacific?" starring Gregory Hunter as the > pilot. And isn't it Midway they land on and not Pearl. Pretty good flick, > but the Forts are decked out in 91st BG (Triangle A) markings. No, I checked back, and it was "Air Force", starring John Garfield. It was a 1943 picture. I think all the planes shown were B-17C or D models, the type with the oblong belly blister that the gunner jumped down into. There were no markings on the planes except for the serial numbers on the tails, and those didn't seem to correspond to any plane I could find in the Freeman book (I seem to remember 05584 or something similar to that, and there weren't any 1940 planes listed that started with 5 ) , so I guess they were fake numbers. I wonder how a movie company rated getting a bunch of B-17s during the war? Or were the older C and D models not even kept for emergencies? The first part of the movie agreed fairly closely to what Mr Gobrecht says in Might in Flight. Fairly good movie. I'll have to watch for the Operation Pacific movie. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 00:39:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 19:39:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nazi show on history Message-ID: <39.12fd7fc7.27fd0a99@aol.com> I believe "Operation Pacific" was actually a submarine movie starring John Wayne. "Air Force" was loosely based on the premise of an early model B-17 which was on its way the Phillipens when teh Japanese attacked Pearl. It's crew then went on to "heroically" bomb the Japanese mainland(??). I believe it was mad in later 42 or 43 and by that time the older models were relegaded to training. In addition the government realised the importance of this type of propaganda movie(meant in a good way) to keep the spirits high on the homefront and were therefor willing to support the film industry in any way necessary. A similar example would be the John Wayne film Flying Tigers, which while not having any footage of bombers had quite a bit of action invovling P-40's, which were also probaly a hot commoditie at teh time Steve Siegmund In a message dated Wed, 4 Apr 2001 6:48:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Bill Jones" writes: << > Isn't that movie called "Operation Pacific?" starring Gregory Hunter as the > pilot. And isn't it Midway they land on and not Pearl. Pretty good flick, > but the Forts are decked out in 91st BG (Triangle A) markings. No, I checked back, and it was "Air Force", starring John Garfield. It was a 1943 picture. I think all the planes shown were B-17C or D models, the type with the oblong belly blister that the gunner jumped down into. There were no markings on the planes except for the serial numbers on the tails, and those didn't seem to correspond to any plane I could find in the Freeman book (I seem to remember 05584 or something similar to that, and there weren't any 1940 planes listed that started with 5 ) , so I guess they were fake numbers. I wonder how a movie company rated getting a bunch of B-17s during the war? Or were the older C and D models not even kept for emergencies? The first part of the movie agreed fairly closely to what Mr Gobrecht says in Might in Flight. Fairly good movie. I'll have to watch for the Operation Pacific movie. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** >> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 00:53:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:53:16 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: on my missions i saw me262 flying straight up attempting to scatter our formations. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 01:01:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:01:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: <20010404.190212.-417715.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the number of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. The object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. Regarding operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit and it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck. Bill Runnels From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 01:29:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 20:29:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack is missing Message-ID: <7a.12e94087.27fd1687@aol.com> The undersigned will be out of town until next week. He will check his e-mail daily, however. He won't take the check book with him. Don't ask. Don't tell. Just don't. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 01:14:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:14:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather-vane Message-ID: <003901c0bd68$faa771e0$d79be0d8@h4k3401> Hi all, - - - Several weeks ago at this site there was a picture of a weather-vane inspired by one at the 100th BG station. I was also inspired by the same weather-vane and built one that has flown over my workshop for the las 10 or 12 years. This one is not quite as large as the other one and is not an exact copy either, but it didn't turn out too bad. It's made from 3/32" brass and machined manually using a Bridgeport vertical mill. Today's new computer technology would make the same project a pretty simple one for anyone who wanted to build one for themself. The directional portion was purchased from a weathervane shop. Gary Moncur helped me by posting a picture of it at this site, and I thank him. He's a very talented and helpful. http://www.303rdbga.com/temp/B-17weathervane.JPG Best regards to all, - - - David Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 02:05:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 21:05:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack is missing References: <7a.12e94087.27fd1687@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0bd6c$8b85e720$fa1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Bon Voyage, safe home , Jack Rencher. lg ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com>; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Jack is missing > The undersigned will be out of town until next week. He will check his > e-mail daily, however. He won't take the check book with him. Don't ask. > Don't tell. Just don't. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 02:28:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <20010404160437.DF1FA53798@pairlist.net> <3ACB8528.320595B4@umuc.edu> Message-ID: <001d01c0bd6f$b94c9fc0$fa1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Donald, my computer busted and I lost all contacts, addresses etc/// . If anyone would like a great and nostalgic look at Molesworth, Don spent a lot of his own time making a video of the base, aircraft, and environs. He very gratiously sent me a copy and I would be glad to share it on a "loan" basis to any interested parties. ( Roy Quinn was Eng. and TT on the original Stockton crew, my dad was the Nav. the B-17F they flew was the Joe BTSFPLK II, 427th Sq.) lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Kehne To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:33 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > My uncle, Roy Q. Smith, was flight engineer with the 427th from its > activation until June 43. Prior to his assignment to the 427th, he was > flew B-17s from Boeing's Seattle plant to bases in the West. In late '41 > his unit (I don't have the group number with me) received orders to > transfer to the Phillipines. On December 7, 1941, he and the rest of his > unit's air crews were enroute to Hawaii by boat when they received word > of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Their transport immediately returned to > San Francisco. (He recalled the Army base didn't have enough room in the > barracks for all those Air Corps crews, so they had to camp in Golden > Gate Park -- without tents!) After some time there, the crews were > reassigned to air bases around the country. I got the impression that > many of the 427th, if not the 303rd, came from that pool of men. > > I wish could get more information for you, but I'm sad to say that my > uncle passed away in December. > > > > > On another subject, a couple days ago I watched a movie that I > > think was called Air Force, which described the group of B-17s that > > were flying into Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked. Very > > interesting. It is my understanding that the ground crews from that > > organization became the 427th, but I wasn't sure of what happened > > to the air crews. > > > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > --__--__-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 03:48:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: --part1_de.1298ff68.27fd36e4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in 1949. It is a classic By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The Discovery Wings Channel last week. Terry Lucas --part1_de.1298ff68.27fd36e4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in
1949. It is a classic
By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The
Discovery Wings Channel last week.
Terry Lucas
--part1_de.1298ff68.27fd36e4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 03:52:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:52:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: --part1_a4.125a19e4.27fd37fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the classic B-17 movies is "Twelve'Oclock High", made in 1949 with Gregory Peck. Also if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The Wings Discovery Channel last week. Terry Lucas --part1_a4.125a19e4.27fd37fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the classic B-17 movies is "Twelve'Oclock High", made in 1949 with
Gregory Peck. Also if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on
The Wings Discovery Channel last week.
Terry Lucas --part1_a4.125a19e4.27fd37fb_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 04:56:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 23:56:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] " NAVIGATION" Message-ID: <000b01c0bd84$6bddbac0$2a904d0c@o3n4f8> Gentlemen and friends, Please indulge me once more. In February of ( I think) 1998 while rummaging through some old photographs; no notations, or explainations, I found an old round leather patch. On the patch was painted a picture of what looked like Bugs Bunny with his foot on a round bomb with the fuse burning. While trying to figure this out, I ran into a fellow named Scott Burriss on the internet. Scott gave me patient instructions on how to find the 303rdBGA and I do mean "patient" instructions). I had never operated a computer in my life. My father in law had given me his old one to "learn" on. Well, the long and the short of it is that I have learned a hell of a lot; enough to be a bit more humble than I thought I was capable of. I came to learn about my father and some of the friends he flew with. I came with a "voyeur" attitude. My reasons for coming were, very sadly to admit, pretty selfish. Well , I didn't learn a whole lot about my father, but I have met some of the MEN that he flew with; and I have found some of the best friends a person could ever hope to have in a lifetime. I have never met a single one of you face to face, but I know your voices from talking with you here, and I have seen your faces in the pictures . There is my father that I came to find : a hundred-fold. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 07:09:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:09:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: <20010404.190212.-417715.1.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <000301c0bd9c$0a4648a0$c4904d0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, if you have an original Norden bombsite like new out of the box, and it was GIVEN to you, I think you have an obligation to offer it closer to home if you want to donate it. If you want to sell it, it is probably worth the price it would command. Please contact the Confederate Air Force, or one of the other Warbird Organizations for advice on this matter. (well said, Bill). lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill L Runnels To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The > intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the number > of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in > feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable > the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. The > object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. Regarding > operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' > Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit and > it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I > have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I > think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck. Bill Runnels > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 12:29:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 06:29:07 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <20010404160437.DF1FA53798@pairlist.net> <3ACB8528.320595B4@umuc.edu> <001d01c0bd6f$b94c9fc0$fa1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000701c0bdc3$a1c21f20$363f22d1@billowen> -Lloyd Grant, I surely would like to see that video since your Dad and my Brother's time at Molesworth overlapped. I would like to see what the base looked like. Bill Owen --Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > Donald, my computer busted and I lost all contacts, addresses etc/// > . If anyone would like a great and nostalgic look at Molesworth, Don spent > a lot of his own time making a video of the base, aircraft, and environs. > He very gratiously sent me a copy and I would be glad to share it on a > "loan" basis to any interested parties. ( Roy Quinn was Eng. and TT on the > original Stockton crew, my dad was the Nav. the B-17F they flew was the Joe > BTSFPLK II, 427th Sq.) lg. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 12:41:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 06:41:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: Message-ID: <002c01c0bdc5$4cb967c0$363f22d1@billowen> I watched Twelve O'clock High last week. The movie showed the planes as being Triangle A, but I'll bet the combat scenes were the 303rd in action. The movie was very careful not to ever show the tails of the planes in the combat scenes. One time they slipped up and I distinctly saw a Triangle C. Just a brief glimpse..but it was there. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > 1949. It is a classic > By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The > Discovery Wings Channel last week. > Terry Lucas > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 13:17:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:17:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: supplemental fuel, was...Lube , Oil, and Filter Message-ID: <55.1392a9b7.27fdbc5c@aol.com> It really wasn't that cold up in the nose, thanks to the sun streaming in and about 5v on the heated suit plug. Except, as I mentioned, things chilled off as you got to the IP, but then you were too busy to think about it. I never realized until I got to the "Bomb Run" show at the Mighty 8th Heritage Museum that opening the bomb bay doors let in that frigid gale aft....whoa! The museum has taken the visual effect one step further by blowing cold air on your shins...it's quite a thing to see...and feel. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 13:21:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:21:41 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: <9e.1278b207.27fdbd55@aol.com> Right, Kevin, and even more effective was the time delay on each bomb where unexploded bombs would detonate hours after impact, with incendiaries setting the whole area ablaze long after the bombers had landed. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 4 21:46:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:46:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs Message-ID: Hey guys, for information on the origination of the 427th use your handy = dandy CD-ROM. Go to 303rd Bomb Group/Group History/1st 300 Missions and = scroll down to the 427th Squadron. Hope it helps!!! Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 13:39:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:39:46 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] " NAVIGATION" Message-ID: <99.130646fc.27fdc192@aol.com> Good to know you, Lloyd. Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's Crew, 303/360 35m. (In case I didn't mention it.) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 13:46:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:46:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: There's a close-up formation shot involving 2 or 3 Forts that keeps popping up in films and the distinctive letters BN are in plain sight, but not the triangle. By the way, an excellent book on the 8th from a fighter's standpoint is "Good Bye, Mickey Mouse" and the author's name escapes me....what a memory! I bought a book on memory a week ago and I can't remember where I stashed it! Ah,well. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 14:18:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:18:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Weather-vane Message-ID: Hi Dave! I am the crazy 44 year old that built the 100th BG weather vane! I saw a pic of the weather vane at Thorpe Abbotts a couple of years ago and knew I had to had one for myself. After contacting Harry Crosby, the then editor of Splasher 6, the 100ths newsletter, I put put in contact with Robert Keyes, the man who built the original that flies over the Tower (actually a Nissen Hut by the Tower) at Thorpe Abbotts. Bob sent me many pictures and some dimensions for my project. (And here I thought I had one of only a handful of 100th BG weather vanes in the world!) Bob's address is: Robert G. Keyes 1119 S Missouri Avenue Roswell, NM 88201 Please send Bob a pic of your weather vane. It would make his day! My ornament was cut from 8 guage steel on a liquid plasma torch folowing the outline of a B-17 drawing from the B-17 Pilot Training Manual that I had blown up up at an architectural supply service. The 8th AF emblem and lettering were all hang cut from 10 guage aluminum using a jig saw and major muscle power in hand filing to final form. If you would like a pic of the one that flies over Thorpe Abbotts, let me know. I shot at least two rolls of film of that weather vane when I was there with Ron and Carol Bately! I would love to see a pic of your weather vane. My address is: Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 14:35:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:35:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: "Pettingill!" "Yes sir!" "We're mighty lucky to have only one loss on this strike. Why did you break formation?" Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on fire and we were getting enemy fighters. I thought I should stay back with him and help him through the target." "Ackerman a pretty good friend of yours?" "Yes, sir, my roomate, sir." "So, for the sake of your roomate you violated Group Integrity? When you pull a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defesive firepower of the Group by ten guns. Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give the Group maximum defensive firepower. That's what I mean by Group Integrety. A crippled aeroplane has to be expendable! The one thing which is never expendible is your obligation to this Group. This Group! This Group! That must be your only loyalty, your only reason for being!" "Stovall!" "Yes sir!" "Have the billeting officer work out a complete reassignment of quarters so that every man has a new roomate!" "Yes, sir!" "Pettingill!" "Yes sir!" "You are reassigned to The Leopard Colony!" Yep, I've watched that movie 1,000 times. OUTSTANDING! But I doubt if any Group considered themselves a "hard luck" outfit or ever had all pilots request a trasfer because of a tough CO. Geez, just take a look at LeMay's Group! Kevin >From: Thor542086@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT > >Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in >1949. It is a classic >By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The >Discovery Wings Channel last week. >Terry Lucas > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 14:47:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:47:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed. I want you to know I would never, NEVER!!, profit from that Nordan. Never in a million year! I have NEVER taken a dime to the work I have done on behalf of the men of the Mighty Eighth. In fact, I have spent thousands of my own dollars indulging myself in my one and only hobby/interests. All of the profits from my first book were donated to six Eighth Air Force organizations. I did not even try to recouperate my expenses. I feel very strongly (VERY STRONGLY) that I should not profit from what 26,000 men died for!! (I wish more felt like me!) All of the bits and pieces I have dug up in Germany were restored to museum quality standards using a 12 step restoration process given to me by the Lincolnshire Aircraft Restoration team at Duxford. All of these bits and peices of metal were donated to the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn. OK, Lloyd, now you know how I feel. All of this memoribilia, in my humble opinion, should be in a museum for all future generations, not in the hands of private collectors. Although I was a Colnel in the CAF for a few years, I am not "in-line" with their way of thinking and I am not quite so sure the museum in Savannah will ever meet their bond obligations with Chatham County. The people who really care and treasure such artifacts are not located in the United States. The Brits have a much keener sense of what Americans airmen did in the ETO! Sorry guys if I had offended anyone with these comments. Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:09:59 -0400 > >Kevin, if you have an original Norden bombsite like new out of the box, and >it was GIVEN to you, I think you have an obligation to offer it closer to >home if you want to donate it. If you want to sell it, it is probably >worth >the price it would command. Please contact the Confederate Air Force, or >one of the other Warbird Organizations for advice on this matter. (well >said, Bill). lg. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill L Runnels >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:01 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The > > intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the >number > > of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in > > feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable > > the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. >The > > object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. >Regarding > > operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' > > Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit >and > > it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I > > have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I > > think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck. Bill Runnels > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 14:53:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:53:38 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Bill: Thank you very much for this information. I've had this Nordan for a while, but have not had the time to fully learn about how it worked. I now have the time and inclination. I pulled it out last night and have just one other question - what is the gyro stabalizer for? It's the round gizmo that attaches to the bomb site. I will go in search of the information you suggest. When I find it, I may be back to you with a few more questions. When I pulled the signt out last night, there was an Air Force magazine article on the principals of bomb sight operation published in 1977. But, like most Eigthth Air Force things, I won't rest until I know as much as you about this bomb sight. Thanks again for the info! Kevin >From: Bill L Runnels >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:01:49 -0500 > >Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your >possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be >happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing >air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The >intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the number >of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in >feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable >the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. The >object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. Regarding >operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' >Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit and >it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I >have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I >think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck. Bill Runnels > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 15:41:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:41:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: Message-ID: <000d01c0bdde$850105c0$d88f4d0c@o3n4f8> P/O'd or not you pinned my ears back. If an apology is in order, you have my sincere apology. One should never offer advice when it is not solicited.Thanks for settting my compass straight , Kevin. > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed> Kevin > > > >> > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 15:44:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:44:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: <002c01c0bdc5$4cb967c0$363f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <001501c0bdde$ed578860$d88f4d0c@o3n4f8> I saw the same thing, Bill Owen. I always thought that movie was about 100th BG. lg ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Owen To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > I watched Twelve O'clock High last week. The movie showed the planes as > being Triangle A, but I'll bet the combat scenes were the 303rd in action. > The movie was very careful not to ever show the tails of the planes in the > combat scenes. One time they slipped up and I distinctly saw a Triangle C. > Just a brief glimpse..but it was there. > Bill Owen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com> > Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:48 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > > > Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > > 1949. It is a classic > > By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The > > Discovery Wings Channel last week. > > Terry Lucas > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 15:46:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:46:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs Message-ID: <102.151e13e.27fddf62@aol.com> i would like to share your video of molesworth. ibspec@aol.com(donald o. "SPEC" campen,jr. ,7603 hillside avenue ,richmond,va, 23229-5923 ) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 15:47:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:47:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: Message-ID: <001b01c0bddf$4cef9420$d88f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bob Hand, the author was Len Deighton. I have the book parked right next to "Catch 22". If you ever want to read it again, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > There's a close-up formation shot involving 2 or 3 Forts that keeps popping > up in films and the distinctive letters BN are in plain sight, but not the > triangle. By the way, an excellent book on the 8th from a fighter's > standpoint is "Good Bye, Mickey Mouse" and the author's name escapes > me....what a memory! I bought a book on memory a week ago and I can't > remember where I stashed it! Ah,well. Cheers, Bob Hand > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 15:52:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:52:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <20010404160437.DF1FA53798@pairlist.net> <3ACB8528.320595B4@umuc.edu> <001d01c0bd6f$b94c9fc0$fa1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <000701c0bdc3$a1c21f20$363f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <002b01c0bde0$0c751ea0$d88f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Owen, consider it in the mail. I have your address somewhere in my desk , but just to be safe send it to me again, ok. Palidin@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Owen To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > -Lloyd Grant, I surely would like to see that video since your Dad and my > Brother's time at Molesworth overlapped. I would like to see what the base > looked like. Bill Owen > --Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:28 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > > > > Donald, my computer busted and I lost all contacts, addresses etc/// > > . If anyone would like a great and nostalgic look at Molesworth, Don > spent > > a lot of his own time making a video of the base, aircraft, and environs. > > He very gratiously sent me a copy and I would be glad to share it on a > > "loan" basis to any interested parties. ( Roy Quinn was Eng. and TT on the > > original Stockton crew, my dad was the Nav. the B-17F they flew was the > Joe > > BTSFPLK II, 427th Sq.) lg. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 16:35:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:35:57 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <102.151e13e.27fddf62@aol.com> Message-ID: <001101c0bde6$1df1fda0$d88f4d0c@o3n4f8> Spec, This tape will probably be bopping around like a chain letter. I will note your address and put you on the list . All I ask is that you forward it to the next person and that the last person sends it back to me. Also, perhaps Don Kehne would be able to provide a permanent copy. I wont volunteer him tho. I hope to get this tape in the mail today. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > i would like to share your video of molesworth. ibspec@aol.com(donald o. > "SPEC" campen,jr. ,7603 hillside avenue ,richmond,va, 23229-5923 ) > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 16:47:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:47:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: <14.1213efac.27fdeda4@aol.com> Thanks for the Deighton....doesn't this character write a terrific book? I've read it each summer for the past ? years and have given at least 4 copies to friends. Glad you agree. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 17:29:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: IBSPEC@aol.com's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:46:58 EDT Message-ID: <24827-3ACC9D52-626@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Asyou are probably aware' I am new to the talk' however' i would like to converse with anyone from the 303rdBG. Iwould dearly love to receive the Movie that a person shot while at Molesworth' My name is James L Phillips' My mail address is ; 1906 Dorchester Ave' Kalamazo; Mich 49001-5217. I was stationed at Moleworth in 1951. We had B29s there and was known as the 582nd Air Resupply Sqdn. I was a flight engineer and we made supply drops to US Army teams in Germany. Molesworth even then still had remanants of the old 303rd still to be seen. the old line shacks were still there and the hanger still had some faint markings on the outside that were definitely the old 303rd after all these years. i remember that our mess was about 100yrds from our huts. so much to remember' we use to go to Kettering and a town called Oundle' I believe the 351st was at Polebrook in 42. Please respond with conversation' manny thanks. Sincerely' Jim Phillips. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 18:01:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:01:00 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill Jones & history channel Message-ID: <001c01c0bdf1$fe932cc0$61bb9ace@mjpmtman> I watched last nights segment and as dumb as I am I learned a thing or two - I will definitely watch the rest of the series. Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 18:15:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:15:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs References: <24827-3ACC9D52-626@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001101c0bdf3$fcebfa80$11904d0c@o3n4f8> James Phillips, Welcome! The tape you are referring to was put together by Donald Kehne who spent quite a bit of time and effort making it. His Uncle and my dad were original crew with Donald Stockton of the 427th Sq. Don sent me a copy of the tape last year and I am happy to share it with anyone who would like to view it. (that is unless I hear from Dons' Lawyers first). The tape will be passed along to each person from the last person until , hopefully it finds its way home. Please take care of it. I am waiting to see if Don intends to sue me, before permission is granted to make copies. Bill Owen is first on the list, and I am mailing the tape this afternoon. You will find some of the greatest people on Earth at the 303rd Talk (present company exempted). Glad to see you here. Incidently, we were at Sculthore about the time you were stationed at Molesworth. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: JAMES PHILLIPS To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > Asyou are probably aware' I am new to the > talk' however' i would like to converse with > anyone from the 303rdBG> > Please respond with conversation' manny > thanks. > > Sincerely' > > Jim Phillips. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 18:20:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:20:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: <20010405.122024.-411793.0.billrunnels@juno.com> I am having some difficulty trying to envision the 'little round gizmo" (gyro stabilizer) that you refer to. Does it mount to the sight head or base (stabilizer) ? Is it a permanent type mounting?......Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 18:38:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rick Hardin) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:38:13 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #227 - 15 msgs References: <20010405160419.2B22E536D3@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3ACCAD85.F65F6602@pimacc.pima.edu> Dear Sir or Madam: I have enjoyed the list, but at this time I would like to "unsubscribe" the list. Thanks and keep up the good work. Rick Hardin   303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to >         303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >         http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >         303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at >         303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > >    1. Re: Intervolometer (Bhandsr@aol.com) >    2. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs (Duke Drewry) >    3. Re: " NAVIGATION" (Bhandsr@aol.com) >    4. Re: Movies (Bhandsr@aol.com) >    5. Re: Weather-vane (Kevin Pearson) >    6. Re: Movies (Kevin Pearson) >    7. Re: Intervolometer (Kevin Pearson) >    8. Re: Intervolometer (Kevin Pearson) >    9. Re: Intervolometer (Lloyd J Grant) >   10. Re: Movies (Lloyd J Grant) >   11. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs (IBSPEC@aol.com) >   12. Re: Movies (Lloyd J Grant) >   13. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs (Lloyd J Grant) >   14. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs (Lloyd J Grant) >   15. Re: Movies (Bhandsr@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:21:41 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Right, Kevin, and even  more effective was the time delay on each bomb where > unexploded bombs would detonate hours after impact, with incendiaries setting > the whole area ablaze long after the bombers had landed.   Cheers, Bob Hand > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:46:23 -0500 > From: "Duke Drewry" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hey guys, for information on the origination of the 427th use your handy = > dandy CD-ROM.  Go to 303rd Bomb Group/Group History/1st 300 Missions and = > scroll down to the 427th Squadron.  Hope it helps!!! > Duke > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:39:46 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] " NAVIGATION" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Good to know you, Lloyd.  Cheers, Bob Hand (B)Fink's  Crew, 303/360  35m. > (In case I didn't mention it.) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:46:57 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > There's a close-up formation shot involving 2 or 3 Forts that keeps popping > up in films and the distinctive letters BN are in plain sight, but not the > triangle.   By the way, an excellent book on the 8th from a fighter's > standpoint is "Good Bye, Mickey  Mouse" and the author's name escapes > me....what a memory!  I bought a book on memory a week ago and I can't > remember where I stashed it!  Ah,well.   Cheers, Bob Hand > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Weather-vane > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:18:10 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Dave!  I am the crazy 44 year old that built the 100th BG weather vane! > I saw a pic of the weather vane at Thorpe Abbotts a couple of years ago and > knew I had to had one for myself.  After contacting Harry Crosby, the then > editor of Splasher 6, the 100ths newsletter, I put put in contact with > Robert Keyes, the man who built the original that flies over the Tower > (actually a Nissen Hut by the Tower) at Thorpe Abbotts.  Bob sent me many > pictures and some dimensions for my project.  (And here I thought I had one > of only a handful of 100th BG weather vanes in the world!) Bob's address is: > > Robert G. Keyes > 1119 S Missouri Avenue > Roswell, NM 88201 > > Please send Bob a pic of your weather vane.  It would make his day! > > My ornament was cut from 8 guage steel on a liquid plasma torch folowing the > outline of a B-17 drawing from the B-17 Pilot Training Manual that I had > blown up up at an architectural supply service.  The 8th AF emblem and > lettering were all hang cut from 10 guage aluminum using a jig saw and major > muscle power in hand filing to final form. > > If you would like a pic of the one that flies over Thorpe Abbotts, let me > know.  I shot at least two rolls of film of that weather vane when I was > there with Ron and Carol Bately! > > I would love to see a pic of your weather vane.  My address is: > > Kevin M. Pearson > Vice President, Business Development > St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce > 3003 Frederick Ave. > St. Joseph, MO  64506 > Phone:  816.232.4461 >         800.748.7856 > Fax:    816.364.4873 > e-mail:  kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:35:09 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "We're mighty lucky to have only one loss on this strike.  Why did you break > formation?" > Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on fire and we were getting > enemy fighters.  I thought I should stay back with him and help him through > the target." > "Ackerman a pretty good friend of yours?" > "Yes, sir, my roomate, sir." > "So, for the sake of your roomate you violated Group Integrity?  When you > pull a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defesive firepower of the Group > by ten guns.  Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give the Group maximum > defensive firepower.  That's what I mean by Group Integrety.  A crippled > aeroplane has to be expendable!  The one thing which is never expendible is > your obligation to this Group.  This Group!  This Group!  That must be your > only loyalty, your only reason for being!" > "Stovall!" > "Yes sir!" > "Have the billeting officer work out a complete reassignment of quarters so > that every man has a new roomate!" > "Yes, sir!" > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "You are reassigned to The Leopard Colony!" > > Yep, I've watched that movie 1,000 times.  OUTSTANDING!  But I doubt if any > Group considered themselves a "hard luck" outfit or ever had all pilots > request a trasfer because of a tough CO.  Geez, just take a look at LeMay's > Group! > Kevin > > >From: Thor542086@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com > >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT > > > >Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > >1949. It is a classic > >By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The > >Discovery Wings Channel last week. > >Terry Lucas > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:47:18 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed.  I want you > to know I would never, NEVER!!, profit from that Nordan.  Never in a million > year!  I have NEVER taken a dime to the work I have done on behalf of the > men of the Mighty Eighth.  In fact, I have spent thousands of my own dollars > indulging myself in my one and only hobby/interests.  All of the profits > from my first book were donated to six Eighth Air Force organizations.  I > did not even try to recouperate my expenses.  I feel very strongly (VERY > STRONGLY) that I should not profit from what 26,000 men died for!! (I wish > more felt like me!) > > All of the bits and pieces I have dug up in Germany were restored to museum > quality standards using a 12 step restoration process given to me by the > Lincolnshire Aircraft Restoration team at Duxford.  All of these bits and > peices of metal were donated to the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn. > > OK, Lloyd, now you know how I feel.  All of this memoribilia, in my humble > opinion, should be in a museum for all future generations, not in the hands > of private collectors. > > Although I was a Colnel in the CAF for a few years, I am not "in-line" with > their way of thinking and I am not quite so sure the museum in Savannah will > ever meet their bond obligations with Chatham County.  The people who really > care and treasure such artifacts are not located in the United States.  The > Brits have a much keener sense of what Americans airmen did in the ETO! > Sorry guys if I had offended anyone with these comments. > Kevin > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:09:59 -0400 > > > >Kevin, if you have an original Norden bombsite like new out of the box, and > >it was GIVEN to you, I think you have an obligation to offer it closer to > >home if you want to donate it.  If you want to sell it, it is probably > >worth > >the price it would command.  Please contact the Confederate Air Force, or > >one of the other Warbird Organizations for advice on this matter.  (well > >said, Bill).  lg. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill L Runnels > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:01 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The > > > intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the > >number > > > of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in > > > feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable > > > the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. > >The > > > object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. > >Regarding > > > operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' > > > Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit > >and > > > it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I > > > have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I > > > think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck.   Bill Runnels > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:53:38 -0500 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill:  Thank you very much for this information.  I've had this Nordan for a > while, but have not had the time to fully learn about how it worked.  I now > have the time and inclination.  I pulled it out last night and have just one > other question - what is the gyro stabalizer for?  It's the round gizmo that > attaches to the bomb site. > > I will go in search of the information you suggest.  When I find it, I may > be back to you with a few more questions.  When I pulled the signt out last > night, there was an Air Force magazine article on the principals of bomb > sight operation published in 1977.  But, like most Eigthth Air Force things, > I won't rest until I know as much as you about this bomb sight. > > Thanks again for the info! > Kevin > > >From: Bill L Runnels > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:01:49 -0500 > > > >Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > >possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > >happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > >air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The > >intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the number > >of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in > >feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable > >the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. The > >object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. Regarding > >operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' > >Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit and > >it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I > >have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I > >think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck.   Bill Runnels > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:41:35 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > P/O'd or not you pinned my ears back.  If an apology is in order, you have > my sincere apology. One should never offer advice when it is not > solicited.Thanks for settting my compass straight , Kevin. > > > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed> Kevin > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will > be > > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of > existing > > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:44:30 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I saw the same thing, Bill Owen.  I always thought that movie was about > 100th BG. lg > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Owen > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:41 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > > I watched Twelve O'clock High last week. The movie showed the planes as > > being Triangle A, but I'll bet the combat scenes were the 303rd in action. > > The movie was very careful not to ever show the tails of the planes in the > > combat scenes. One time they slipped up and I distinctly saw a Triangle C. > > Just a brief glimpse..but it was there. > > Bill Owen > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: <303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com> > > Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:48 PM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > > > > > > Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made > in > > > 1949. It is a classic > > > By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on > The > > > Discovery Wings Channel last week. > > > Terry Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:46:58 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > i would like to share your video of molesworth. ibspec@aol.com(donald o. > "SPEC" campen,jr. ,7603 hillside avenue ,richmond,va, 23229-5923 ) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:47:10 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bob Hand, the author was Len Deighton.  I have the book parked right next to > "Catch 22".  If you ever want to read it again, let me know. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:46 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > > There's a close-up formation shot involving 2 or 3 Forts that keeps > popping > > up in films and the distinctive letters BN are in plain sight, but not the > > triangle.   By the way, an excellent book on the 8th from a fighter's > > standpoint is "Good Bye, Mickey  Mouse" and the author's name escapes > > me....what a memory!  I bought a book on memory a week ago and I can't > > remember where I stashed it!  Ah,well.   Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:52:31 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill Owen, consider it in the mail.  I have your address somewhere in my > desk , but just to be safe send it to me again, ok. > Palidin@worldnet.att.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Owen > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:29 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > > > -Lloyd Grant, I surely would like to see that video since your Dad and my > > Brother's time at Molesworth overlapped. I would like to see what the base > > looked like.  Bill Owen > > --Original Message ----- > > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > > > > > > > Donald,  my computer busted and I lost all contacts, addresses etc/// > > > .  If anyone would like a great and nostalgic look at Molesworth, Don > > spent > > > a lot of his own time making a video of the base, aircraft, and > environs. > > > He very gratiously sent me a copy and I would be glad to share it on a > > > "loan" basis to any interested parties. ( Roy Quinn was Eng. and TT on > the > > > original Stockton crew, my dad was the Nav. the B-17F they flew was the > > Joe > > > BTSFPLK  II,  427th Sq.)  lg. > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 14 > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:35:57 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Spec,  This tape will probably be bopping around like a chain letter.  I > will note your address and put you on the list .  All I ask is that you > forward it to the next person and that the last person sends it back to me. > Also, perhaps Don Kehne would be able to provide a permanent copy.  I wont > volunteer him tho.  I hope to get this tape in the mail today.  Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs > > > i would like to share your video of molesworth. ibspec@aol.com(donald o. > > "SPEC" campen,jr. ,7603 hillside avenue ,richmond,va, 23229-5923 ) > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 15 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:47:48 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Thanks for the  Deighton....doesn't this character write a terrific book? > I've read it each summer for the past ? years and have given at least 4 > copies to friends.  Glad you agree.  Cheers, Bob Hand > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 18:50:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:50:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: Message-ID: <3ACCB05D.E06FCAA7@attglobal.net> Kevin Pearson .... Must disagree with your assumption that the Savannah Museum will never retire its debt, ie., Bond Issue(s). I believe they will. Also, from time to time, much as we (foolish people) retire the debt of various foreign countries by "writing off" what they owe us, it may thus be done in the Chatham County situation ... who knows? Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed. I want you > to know I would never, NEVER!!, profit from that Nordan. Never in a million > year! I have NEVER taken a dime to the work I have done on behalf of the > men of the Mighty Eighth. In fact, I have spent thousands of my own dollars > indulging myself in my one and only hobby/interests. All of the profits > from my first book were donated to six Eighth Air Force organizations. I > did not even try to recouperate my expenses. I feel very strongly (VERY > STRONGLY) that I should not profit from what 26,000 men died for!! (I wish > more felt like me!) > > All of the bits and pieces I have dug up in Germany were restored to museum > quality standards using a 12 step restoration process given to me by the > Lincolnshire Aircraft Restoration team at Duxford. All of these bits and > peices of metal were donated to the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn. > > OK, Lloyd, now you know how I feel. All of this memoribilia, in my humble > opinion, should be in a museum for all future generations, not in the hands > of private collectors. > > Although I was a Colnel in the CAF for a few years, I am not "in-line" with > their way of thinking and I am not quite so sure the museum in Savannah will > ever meet their bond obligations with Chatham County. The people who really > care and treasure such artifacts are not located in the United States. The > Brits have a much keener sense of what Americans airmen did in the ETO! > Sorry guys if I had offended anyone with these comments. > Kevin > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:09:59 -0400 > > > >Kevin, if you have an original Norden bombsite like new out of the box, and > >it was GIVEN to you, I think you have an obligation to offer it closer to > >home if you want to donate it. If you want to sell it, it is probably > >worth > >the price it would command. Please contact the Confederate Air Force, or > >one of the other Warbird Organizations for advice on this matter. (well > >said, Bill). lg. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill L Runnels > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:01 PM > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice will be > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of existing > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. The > > > intervalometer was connected to the sight. Manual settings for the > >number > > > of bombs in the trail, interval distance between successive impacts in > > > feet and ground speed were made. Other calculations were made to enable > > > the sight to determine the drop point of the first bomb in the train. > >The > > > object was to have the middle bomb in the train hit the target. > >Regarding > > > operational information on the sight, try to locate a Bombardiers' > > > Information File ( BIF ).This manual was part of our Bombardiers' Kit > >and > > > it went with us on each mission. It was a restricted publication but I > > > have seen them at air shows. It covers much more than the sight but I > > > think you would find it interesting reading. Good luck. Bill Runnels > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 19:02:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:02:43 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: Message-ID: <3ACCB342.26163E38@attglobal.net> FYI ... Many scenes in many post WW#2 movies were "filmed" at Molesworth. Bill Bergeron and myself flew many such "missions" for the Motion Picture Unit which was at Molesworth making "training films" and in which we were proud to take part. At times Bergie and I would make landing after landing which later became (in movie ability) a "Group" landing. We wondered at the time if anyone would ever realize the SAME planes were making all those "Group " landings. The BN planes which were seen in those Twelve O'Clock High scenes WERE THERE. In both combat scenes and in those local scenes Bergie and I worked on. In MANY post WW#2 movies the BN Forts can be seen. Also at Molesworth, were some "static" scenes made for that same unit which was based at Molesworth for a time. Some of the gunners of my crew were used in " hangar" scenes in a B17 and were a little angry that "no one" would ever know them because they had to wear oxygen masks at most "gun" scenes. They even used an old B24, which Lyle flew at times, from which to take airborne formation scenes. They had huge cameras mounted in gun positions. To say the least, Molesworth had a LOT to do with MANY post WW#2 movies. It is too bad they cannot be formerly thanked in the credits of various presentations. Cheers! Bill Heller Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > There's a close-up formation shot involving 2 or 3 Forts that keeps popping > up in films and the distinctive letters BN are in plain sight, but not the > triangle. By the way, an excellent book on the 8th from a fighter's > standpoint is "Good Bye, Mickey Mouse" and the author's name escapes > me....what a memory! I bought a book on memory a week ago and I can't > remember where I stashed it! Ah,well. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 19:05:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:05:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: Message-ID: <3ACCB3D2.153CCE8A@attglobal.net> Kevin ... The crews "revolting" was the only part of Twelve O'Clock High which I felt WAS ALL WRONG. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "We're mighty lucky to have only one loss on this strike. Why did you break > formation?" > Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on fire and we were getting > enemy fighters. I thought I should stay back with him and help him through > the target." > "Ackerman a pretty good friend of yours?" > "Yes, sir, my roomate, sir." > "So, for the sake of your roomate you violated Group Integrity? When you > pull a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defesive firepower of the Group > by ten guns. Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give the Group maximum > defensive firepower. That's what I mean by Group Integrety. A crippled > aeroplane has to be expendable! The one thing which is never expendible is > your obligation to this Group. This Group! This Group! That must be your > only loyalty, your only reason for being!" > "Stovall!" > "Yes sir!" > "Have the billeting officer work out a complete reassignment of quarters so > that every man has a new roomate!" > "Yes, sir!" > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "You are reassigned to The Leopard Colony!" > > Yep, I've watched that movie 1,000 times. OUTSTANDING! But I doubt if any > Group considered themselves a "hard luck" outfit or ever had all pilots > request a trasfer because of a tough CO. Geez, just take a look at LeMay's > Group! > Kevin > > >From: Thor542086@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com > >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT > > > >Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > >1949. It is a classic > >By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The > >Discovery Wings Channel last week. > >Terry Lucas > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 19:09:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:09:55 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Sorry Lloyd for piping up so loudly this morning. Not PO'd at all and an apology is not in order. I am very sensitive to ever being viewed as someone who wants to profit from my work for the 8th. And I am very disapointed in the quality of museums in the US dedicated to World War II - Smithsonian is a prime example. Forgive my outburst and direct tone this morning. It was the first message I read today and it just struck me the wrong way. Please accept my apology! Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:41:35 -0400 > >P/O'd or not you pinned my ears back. If an apology is in order, you have >my sincere apology. One should never offer advice when it is not >solicited.Thanks for settting my compass straight , Kevin. > > > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed> Kevin > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice >will >be > > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of >existing > > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 19:20:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:20:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill Jones & history channel Message-ID: Maurice: I've seen that series a couple of times now on the History Channel and watched the segment again last night on the deportation of Jews out of Poland. As I curled up in my nice warm bed last night, I couldn't help but think about the families that were deported to the Central Zone, I think they called it, and just dumped off 200 to 800 families at a time. People had no where to sleep and had to wait up to 9 months to get a room. In the Warsaw Ghetto, people lived on 300 calories per day. Think about that the next time a Big Mac commercial comes on!!! I was very haunted by the comments from the store keeper in Lodz that profited from the exploitation of the Jews. He was so matter of fact about the issue! How could you watch people starving to death and not care. I guess if it was them or you, you might have to accept that philosophy. Thank you to all World War II vets for keeping my generation free from these fears!!! Kevin >From: "Maurice Paulk" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill Jones & history channel >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:01:00 -0500 > >I watched last nights segment and as dumb as I am I learned a thing or two >- >I will definitely watch the rest of the series. >Maurice J. Paulk > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 19:22:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:22:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Bill: I am going to have to look more closely tonight. I will report more tomorrow. Thanks for the fast follow up! Kevin >From: Bill L Runnels >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:20:23 -0500 > >I am having some difficulty trying to envision the 'little round gizmo" >(gyro stabilizer) that you refer to. Does it mount to the sight head or >base (stabilizer) ? Is it a permanent type mounting?......Bill > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 20:12:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:12:16 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: Bill: Please don't get me wrong, I think the Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum in Savannah is one hell of a tribute to the men of the Eighth Air Force. The Mission Experience Room send shivers up my back whenever I think about it. When the museum was in the planning stages, I was very close to the then president of the Eighth Air Force Historical Society, Jim Hower of St. Joseph (comand copilot, 447th BG at Rattlesden) and was privy to a great deal of information unknown to the general public. I will comment no further on the Mighty Eighth Museum in this forum. In keeping with Gary's wishes, I will keep my comments on the positive side. I honestly hope the museum survives and prospers. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 20:40:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:40:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story Message-ID: I was reading through the 360thBS microfilm today, (which isn't easy, because the quality is poor), and I came across one of many news clippings that were copied on the film. It was the story of the "Quinine", which I had read about before, both on the new CDROM and when I borrowed a copy of Might in Flight. However on glancing at the news clipping, I noticed that the author was none other than Walter Cronkite. I had known that he was a reporter who had spent time in Molesworth, but I had never read anything he wrote about the 303rd, so I thought it was interesting. If anyone is interested in the article, I captured a poor quality image of the clipping off the microfilm, and wrote up as best I could, a text version. It is at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/quinine.html I may not leave it there long though, since I'm not sure about the copywrite implications. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 21:10:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:10:03 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: kevin and bill. it is such n important facility for history sake and generations to come that that county, state and community will surely keep it alive and viable for perpetuity. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:12:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:12:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ACC7D42.6699.2B775A@localhost> > However on glancing at the news clipping, I noticed that the > author was none other than Walter Cronkite. I had known that he Bill, that is a great article. I don't see a copyright problem as you have credited everyone and it is so old. I check into the copyright question and may add the text to the webpage. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 21:51:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:51:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story In-Reply-To: <3ACC7D42.6699.2B775A@localhost> References: Message-ID: > Bill, that is a great article. I don't see a copyright problem as you > have credited everyone and it is so old. You are probably right. Also, it is already kind of in the public domain since it is on the microfilm. BTW, I forgot to mention that the mission that the story came from was the July 25 1943 Hamburg mission, that I know is of interest to at least one other member of the list, although it only mentions the Quinine crew. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 21:55:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:55:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: Message-ID: <3ACCDBD5.17613C5F@attglobal.net> Our dicsussion anent the Mighty 8th Museum is not in the realm of politics. But the Museum in Savannah WILL survive, and, it was built FOUR decades AFTER the 8th Hysterical Society COULD have embarked on such a project. Though I am a Patron Member of the Savannah Museum, by its nature and CLASS, it will survive. Help it to do so, Kevin. Each little bit helps. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Bill: Please don't get me wrong, I think the Eighth Air Force Heritage > Museum in Savannah is one hell of a tribute to the men of the Eighth Air > Force. The Mission Experience Room send shivers up my back whenever I think > about it. > > When the museum was in the planning stages, I was very close to the then > president of the Eighth Air Force Historical Society, Jim Hower of St. > Joseph (comand copilot, 447th BG at Rattlesden) and was privy to a great > deal of information unknown to the general public. I will comment no > further on the Mighty Eighth Museum in this forum. In keeping with Gary's > wishes, I will keep my comments on the positive side. I honestly hope the > museum survives and prospers. > > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 21:57:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:57:06 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: Message-ID: <3ACCDC21.6D8F8AF@attglobal.net> Spec ... I believe sincerely that you are CORRECT ... Cheers! Bill Heller IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > kevin and bill. it is such n important facility for history sake and > generations to come that that county, state and community will surely keep it > alive and viable for perpetuity. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:07:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:07:21 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden bombsight Message-ID: <002e01c0be14$7afe8da0$672664d8@computer> Hello to those of you asking abut bombsight. I am Ed Lamme and was bombardier with Strickland's crew fro end of March43 to September 43. The bombsight was in two pieces. The horizontal gyro was a permanent part of the plane, fixed in the nose. The bombsight was removable and, in fact, was removed after evry mission. The vertical gyro (little round thing) was attached to the telescope which had cross hairs, thus aiding in keeping the scope more or less on target. Also involved were two bubbles, as in a carpenters level. They were very sensitive and had to be perfectly centered in order to bomb accurately. The horizontal cross hair was attached to a disc which rotated at a constant speed. One of the knobs controlled the position of a roller on the disc and when motion was stopped (thru the scope) your ground speed was accurate. The vertical hair was for course correction.. The horizontal gyro was a vital part of the C-1 autopilot, which actually flew the plane during the bomb run. All the pilots could do for those few seconds was sit and watch. In all the time I was there never heard of pilot following the PDI (pilot direction indicator) in the cockpit, although there may havd been some cases.. If any of you fellows have any further questions, I will try to answer although it is strictly from memory as all my records and manuals were destoyed in a fire many years ago. I would have addressed you men personally but I didn't have names. Anyway, it is interesting to read the messages. All the best Ed From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:05:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:05:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer References: Message-ID: <002101c0be14$2c64c9c0$f0194e0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, I find that as I gain more experience using this medium of correspondence, that I must be very vigilant and careful of the way a message is phrased. Often something written with the greatest desire to be helpful , or complimentary, or germaine is misconstrued as having offensive intent. Only once, in the time that I have been a participant here have I ever intentionally tried to offend someone, and that was when I "strafed" Bernard. ( I regret doing that, but it was done on purpose). I do seem to have a Mustang penchant for "not quite endearing myself" at times, but that is a learning curve that I am trying mightily to get control of. No offense taken, none intended; so as Uwe said to me, "What the hell are we talking about.?" T's/up. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > Sorry Lloyd for piping up so loudly this morning. Not PO'd at all and an > apology is not in order. I am very sensitive to ever being viewed as > someone who wants to profit from my work for the 8th. And I am very > disapointed in the quality of museums in the US dedicated to World War II - > Smithsonian is a prime example. > > Forgive my outburst and direct tone this morning. It was the first message > I read today and it just struck me the wrong way. Please accept my apology! > Kevin > > > >From: "Lloyd J Grant" > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer > >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:41:35 -0400 > > > >P/O'd or not you pinned my ears back. If an apology is in order, you have > >my sincere apology. One should never offer advice when it is not > >solicited.Thanks for settting my compass straight , Kevin. > > > > > Ok , Lloyd, you are treading on thin ground, but I'm not pissed> Kevin > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, I can't believe that you have a new Norden bombsight in your > > > > > possession. What a treasure! I am sure the museum of your choice > >will > >be > > > > > happy to have it. You also might consider contacting owners of > >existing > > > > > air worthy B-17s. Not all of their equipment is original issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:15:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:15:07 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #226 -12 O'CLOCK HIGH Message-ID: <34.13524702.27fe3a5b@aol.com> The planes that Terry Lucas saw in 12 O'clock High were from the 427th Squadron. The planes were in an elevated echelon and I was copilot in the far right B-17 but I do not remember the other crews or even if they were from the 427th. That particular scene has been in a number of movies the name of which I do not recall. The scene was shot by the 1st AAF Photographic Squadron in a period between the 1st and 28th of February 1944. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:50:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:50:59 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #225 - 4 msgs Message-ID: <61.ce88a95.27fe42c3@aol.com> gracious respectful thanks for your contribution to our digest of flyer enthusiast 303rds. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:50:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:50:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Molesworth Tape. Message-ID: <005701c0be1a$70118f40$f0194e0c@o3n4f8> The tape is in the mail. The following is FYI to all that requested it. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Kehne To: Lloyd J Grant Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Molesworth Tape. > Lloyd, > > You don't need to ask my permission for that. The idea was to get the > film to as many 303rd vets or their families or friends or anyone who is > interested as possible. I just wish the tape was better quality. Someday > when I hit the lotto, I'll order the broadcast quality version. > > By the way, I sent a copy to Scott Burriss, webmaster of the Heavy Bombers website. The 303rd association has one, too. If you think of other > websites that might be interested, I'll be happy to send them copies as > well. > > Oh. Just one thing: Please let all know that the film is SILENT. When my > relatives first viewed their copy, they spent 15 minutes trying to get > the sound to work!!! > --Don > > Lloyd J Grant wrote: > > > > Don, I have offered to loan my copy of the tape you sent last year to > > several people from the 303rd Talk. I feel fairly comfortable that you > > would not be against me doing so. By sending it chain-mail fashion the cost > > of postage is shared. If you have the slightest objection to me sharing > > this tape please let me know ASAP and I will pull the plug. > > Thanks. Lloyd. > > I would not loan the tape to anyone I thought would use the tape for > > anything other than the purpose you originally intended. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:59:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:59:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: <59.93bde30.27fe44a8@aol.com> bill, wre you and bergie still in military service then or civilian? when was molesworth torn down from it's wwii appearance? thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 22:58:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:58:23 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #226 -12 O'CLOCK HIGH References: <34.13524702.27fe3a5b@aol.com> Message-ID: <007201c0be1b$8a1c9fa0$f0194e0c@o3n4f8> Bill Dallas, thank you. you can bet some of us will be paying alot more attention at the next viewing. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #226 -12 O'CLOCK HIGH > The planes that Terry Lucas saw in 12 O'clock High were from the 427th > Squadron. The planes were in an elevated echelon and I was copilot in the far > right B-17 but I do not remember the other crews or even if they were from > the 427th. That particular scene has been in a number of movies the name of > which I do not recall. The scene was shot by the 1st AAF Photographic > Squadron in a period between the 1st and 28th of February 1944. > Cheers, > Bill Dallas > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 23:01:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:01:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intervolometer Message-ID: <8b.4ba8521.27fe4544@aol.com> kevin ,your inference is that something bad or wrong was involved. then ,why even comment like that? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 23:33:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:33:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: <39.130d4b34.27fe4cd2@aol.com> --part1_39.130d4b34.27fe4cd2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin I seldom reply to misinformed statements that appear on our forum and other publications but shame on you for repeating the statement that the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Bond Debt may not allow the museum to survive. These thoughts originated with John Greenwood, Chairman of the Eighth Air Force Memorial Museum Foundation, Art Swanson and some of it's other officers. They apparently believe that the museum is in competion with them and have been spreading ugly rumors about the museum's financial stability ever since it was first a dream of Lew Lyle. Things got so bad, including continued bad-mouthing of the museum, that the 8th Air Force Historical Socity recently disassociated itself from the Eighth Air Force Memorial Museum Foundation. See 8th AF News December 2000. page 22 for letter from Dick Baynes, President 8thAFHS to John Greenwood, Chairman 8th AFMMF. I have been a member of the Board of Trustees of the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum for many years - from before the Museum was built. I attend quarterly Board meetings flying to Savannah from my home in California. The museum, like all new museums, has had some start-up financial problems but they are now under control. The debt is not a problem. The museum will be in Savannah for many future years. It is the largest community revnue producing non-commercial activity in the Savannah area. The Museum Board has four 303rd BG(H) members - M/Gen Lew Lyle, Judge Ben Smith, Myself and Associate 303rd BGA member Dr. Walter E. Brown. We have worked hard to make the Museum a success. Please discontinue your personal bad-mouthing of the museum. You do yourself an injustice by repeating unjustified and unsupported rumors that the museum won't last and it certainly isn't in the interest and support of one of the world's great aviation museums. Your might also make a financial donation to the museum, as accomplished by myself and many others, as an indication of your personal support of the museum. PS: I too have a Norden Bombsight that I have cherished for many years. I use it often in making presentations to schools and organizations. I wouldn't dream of sending it to England when there are so many worthwile uses for it in the future in the USA. Harry D. Gobrecht, Proud 358th BS Pilot and 303rd BGA Historian and Past President --part1_39.130d4b34.27fe4cd2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin
I seldom reply to misinformed statements that appear on our forum and other
publications but shame on you for repeating the statement that the Mighty
Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Bond Debt may not allow the museum to
survive.
These thoughts originated with John Greenwood, Chairman of the Eighth Air
Force Memorial Museum Foundation, Art Swanson and some of it's other
officers.  They apparently believe that the museum is in competion with them
and have been spreading ugly rumors about the museum's financial stability
ever since it was first
a dream of Lew Lyle.  Things got so bad, including continued bad-mouthing of
the museum,  that the 8th Air Force Historical Socity recently disassociated
itself from the Eighth Air Force Memorial Museum Foundation.  See 8th AF News
December 2000. page 22 for letter from Dick Baynes, President 8thAFHS to John
Greenwood, Chairman 8th AFMMF.

I have been a member of the Board of Trustees of the Mighty Eighth Air Force
Heritage Museum for many years - from before the Museum was built.  I attend
quarterly Board meetings flying to Savannah from my home in California.  The
museum, like all new museums, has had some start-up financial problems but
they are now under control.  The debt is not a problem.  The museum will be
in Savannah for many future years.  It is the largest community revnue
producing non-commercial activity in the Savannah area.
The Museum Board has four 303rd BG(H) members - M/Gen Lew Lyle, Judge Ben
Smith, Myself and Associate 303rd BGA member Dr. Walter E. Brown.  We have
worked hard to make the Museum a success.
Please discontinue your personal bad-mouthing of the museum.  You do yourself
an injustice by repeating unjustified and unsupported rumors that the museum
won't last and it certainly isn't in the interest and support of one of the
world's great aviation museums.  Your might also make a financial donation to
the museum, as accomplished by myself and many others,  as an indication of
your personal support of the museum.

PS:  I too have a Norden Bombsight that I have cherished for many years.  I
use it
often in making presentations to schools and organizations.  I wouldn't dream
of sending it to England when there are so many worthwile uses for it in the
future in the USA.

Harry D. Gobrecht, Proud 358th BS Pilot and 303rd BGA Historian and Past
President --part1_39.130d4b34.27fe4cd2_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 5 23:56:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:56:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden bombsight Message-ID: <9e.1279f8e6.27fe5239@aol.com> how true ed. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 00:42:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:42:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: video Message-ID: <004c01c0be2a$1317bac0$92b34d0c@o3n4f8> Please give credit and thanks to Donald Kehne. I am glad to manage the logistics. I have the time available to do so. Thumps up. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: Margaret Hillesheim Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: video > Margaret, the tape was mailed out today to Bill Owen, Bill is going to pass > it along to "Spec", and I will write to him the next forwarding address. > This way no ones privacy is compromised and the small cost of postage is > shared amongst friends. If you seriously want to view the tape send me the > address you would like it mailed to so that I can inform the next person > where to send it. Please remember, it is my tape, and it is a loaner. I > would like to get it back in decent shape, but I am thrilled to be able to > share it with everyone. This is why Don Kehne went to the trouble to make > it. Be forwarned, however, there is no sound track so if you expect > something of Hollywood magnitude you may be disappointed. Also, there is no > combat footage. You may however, recognize a plane, or a face, or a place. > The tape runs for about 29mins. and it is in colour. Let me know, ok? Best > to you. LG. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Margaret Hillesheim > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:38 AM > Subject: video > > > > I would be very interested in viewing the video you referenced on the > > 303 newsgroup. > > I have been researching my uncle's career for a couple of years now. > > He was an original 303 pilot. He crash landed his plane Jan. 23, 1943 > > and was a POW till the end of the war. He continued on as career pilot > > for the Air Force till he retired in the 60's. > > > > Margaret O'Connor Hillesheim > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 01:43:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:43:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape Message-ID: <8e.13910282.27fe6b39@aol.com> --part1_8e.13910282.27fe6b39_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, I would be inrterested in viewing that tape of Molesworth, could I be put on the list to borrow it as it goes around?. I will send my address to your personal email address. Thanks and cheers .........Bill Bergeron...... --part1_8e.13910282.27fe6b39_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd,
I would be inrterested in viewing that tape of Molesworth, could I be put on
the list to borrow it as it goes around?. I will send my address to your
personal email address. Thanks and cheers .........Bill Bergeron......

--part1_8e.13910282.27fe6b39_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 02:50:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:50:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape In-Reply-To: <8e.13910282.27fe6b39@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ACCBE7B.27888.7E1DF3@localhost> > I would be inrterested in viewing that tape of Molesworth, could I be > put on the list to borrow it as it goes around?. I will send my > address to your personal email address. Thanks and cheers > .........Bill Bergeron...... Bill, I have a copy I can start on the circuit as well. I'll send mine to you and see where it ends up. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 02:12:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:12:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape References: <3ACCBE7B.27888.7E1DF3@localhost> Message-ID: <004301c0be36$b57614e0$3d1b4e0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape > > I would be inrterested in viewing that tape of Molesworth, could I be > > put on the list to borrow it as it goes around?. I will send my > > address to your personal email address. Thanks and cheers > > .........Bill Bergeron...... > > Bill, > I have a copy I can start on the circuit as well. I'll send mine to you > and see where it ends up. > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 02:21:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:21:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape References: <3ACCBE7B.27888.7E1DF3@localhost> Message-ID: <005101c0be37$e0965080$3d1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Gary, I was sure that I was getting myself into another "hard-place" when I saw your message. Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend this loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, and Donald Kehne went above and beyound the call to make it. For his sake , I am truly happy to see the response. Thanks for the help, I expected a dressing down and was at stiff attention. Whew! Cheers to all, and Thumbs up. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape > > I would be inrterested in viewing that tape of Molesworth, could I be > > put on the list to borrow it as it goes around?. I will send my > > address to your personal email address. Thanks and cheers > > .........Bill Bergeron...... > > Bill, > I have a copy I can start on the circuit as well. I'll send mine to you > and see where it ends up. > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 03:32:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:32:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape In-Reply-To: <005101c0be37$e0965080$3d1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3ACCC858.3883.A4A366@localhost> > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend this > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, and Donald Kehne > went above and beyound the call to make it. For his sake , I am truly > happy to see the response. Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the quality, but the content. It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's lots of great shots of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine will go to Bill Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... pass it around and maybe someday it will find its way home. Once again, Don, thanks for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 02:50:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:50:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: Message-ID: <008f01c0be3b$f1010e20$3d1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, I feel like I incited this damned flak barrage. If I hadn't tossed my unsolicited bullshit into the mix, no one would have gotten upset. Remember, no fence is so broken that it can't be rebuilt. I am sorry I provoked you. Never meant to , but can't take it back. Just go forward, hey. Damned Norton bombsite didn't work as advertised anyway if my information is correct. ( Hell! It seldom is). OUCH. keep smilin', buddro. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "We're mighty lucky to have only one loss on this strike. Why did you break > formation?" > Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on fire and we were getting > enemy fighters. I thought I should stay back with him and help him through > the target." > "Ackerman a pretty good friend of yours?" > "Yes, sir, my roomate, sir." > "So, for the sake of your roomate you violated Group Integrity? When you > pull a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defesive firepower of the Group > by ten guns. Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give the Group maximum > defensive firepower. That's what I mean by Group Integrety. A crippled > aeroplane has to be expendable! The one thing which is never expendible is > your obligation to this Group. This Group! This Group! That must be your > only loyalty, your only reason for being!" > "Stovall!" > "Yes sir!" > "Have the billeting officer work out a complete reassignment of quarters so > that every man has a new roomate!" > "Yes, sir!" > "Pettingill!" > "Yes sir!" > "You are reassigned to The Leopard Colony!" > > Yep, I've watched that movie 1,000 times. OUTSTANDING! But I doubt if any > Group considered themselves a "hard luck" outfit or ever had all pilots > request a trasfer because of a tough CO. Geez, just take a look at LeMay's > Group! > Kevin > > > > >From: Thor542086@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com > >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT > > > >Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > >1949. It is a classic > >By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on The > >Discovery Wings Channel last week. > >Terry Lucas > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 03:27:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:27:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... Message-ID: <38.1470c6e1.27fe8396@gateway.net> Gary My husband, Gilbert D. Grant, was the Flight Engineer with Clyde Henning's crew, 359th, 303rd BGA, stationed at Molesworth. I recently sent you a several photographs, one of the crew which is now on the site. At Clydes urging, I just completed my application for membership and am putting it in the mail tomorrow. I've been following the talk site for a couple of weeks and am in awe of the variety of interest that it covers. Especially the interest in the video of Molesworth which has really taken off, like a B-17. I'm wondering if there is any way that this video could be put on its own site, temporarily, for everyone to view. I'm not familiar enough with the workings of the computer world to even know if it's possible, but it would be interesting to see if it could be done. If not, may I put my name on the list? Please let me know ... and thank you, all, so much for making this possible. Anne Grant From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 03:48:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:48:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: address Message-ID: <001e01c0be44$04fcbde0$183f22d1@billowen> Sounds like a good plan to me, Lloyd. After viewing I'll get it on the way to Spec. Thanks, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: "Bill Owen" Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:06 PM Subject: Re: address > Bill Owen, please see fwd msg fm D. Kehne. If you don't mind will you > forward the tape to Spec.(address enclosed with the tape) Then Spec can > pass it on to the next person. Spec, I will pass along the next address to > you, ok? Hope this system works for all. Don says thumbs up if you want to > copy the tape. Sorry, no sound track, anybody that wants to add one is > welcome to. Best, Gentlemen and Ladies. lg. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Owen > To: Lloyd J H Grant > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:24 PM > Subject: address > > > > Lloyd my adress is: > > > > Bill Owen > > 3814 Donnybrook > > Tyler, Tx. 75701 > > > > I will certainly take care of the video and get it back to you. Mucho > > thanks, my friend. Bill > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 04:06:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:06:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: address References: <001e01c0be44$04fcbde0$183f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <000701c0be46$94afa0e0$d2904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Owen, I mailed it today at about 4: 00 PM ( 1600 hrs. to you hard cases). Please let me know when you get it, Bill. Gary has a tape that Don sent also, and he is willing to share his with the group. Now there are two tapes in circulation, it is important to know which one is going where. cheers, I hope it lives up to expectations. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Owen To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:48 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: address > Sounds like a good plan to me, Lloyd. After viewing I'll get it on the way > to Spec. Thanks, Bill Owen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: "Bill Owen" > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: address > > > > Bill Owen, please see fwd msg fm D. Kehne. If you don't mind will you > > forward the tape to Spec.(address enclosed with the tape) Then Spec can > > pass it on to the next person. Spec, I will pass along the next address > to > > you, ok? Hope this system works for all. Don says thumbs up if you want > to > > copy the tape. Sorry, no sound track, anybody that wants to add one is > > welcome to. Best, Gentlemen and Ladies. lg. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bill Owen > > To: Lloyd J H Grant > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:24 PM > > Subject: address > > > > > > > Lloyd my adress is: > > > > > > Bill Owen > > > 3814 Donnybrook > > > Tyler, Tx. 75701 > > > > > > I will certainly take care of the video and get it back to you. Mucho > > > thanks, my friend. Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 04:15:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:15:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... References: <38.1470c6e1.27fe8396@gateway.net> Message-ID: <000d01c0be47$cbedf920$d2904d0c@o3n4f8> Anne, hello. Lloyd Grant calling to say "hello cousin!". Dad was in the 427th as a Nav.. Let Gary start the daisy chain your way. The tape bears watching a few times, Don said he didn't mind if anyone wants to make a copy of it for private collection only. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... > Gary > My husband, Gilbert D. Grant, was the Flight Engineer with Clyde Henning's > crew, 359th, 303rd BGA, stationed at Molesworth. I recently sent you a > several photographs, one of the crew which is now on the site. At Clydes > urging, I just completed my application for membership and am putting it in > the mail tomorrow. > I've been following the talk site for a couple of weeks and am in awe of the > variety of interest that it covers. Especially the interest in the video of > Molesworth which has really taken off, like a B-17. I'm wondering if there > is any way that this video could be put on its own site, temporarily, for > everyone to view. I'm not familiar enough with the workings of the computer > world to even know if it's possible, but it would be interesting to see if it > could be done. If not, may I put my name on the list? Please let me know ... > and thank you, all, so much for making this possible. Anne Grant > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 04:20:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:20:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: <008f01c0be3b$f1010e20$3d1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001801c0be48$8061f500$d2904d0c@o3n4f8> Sorry , this was supposed to be a private message. Hope I didnt offend any girl scouts with my erudite language. Will take precautions to ensure no repetition occurs. Again, my apologies to all. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > Kevin, I feel like I incited this damned flak barrage. If I hadn't tossed > my unsolicited bullshit into the mix, no one would have gotten upset. > Remember, no fence is so broken that it can't be rebuilt. I am sorry I > provoked you. Never meant to , but can't take it back. Just go forward, > hey. Damned Norton bombsite didn't work as advertised anyway if my > information is correct. ( Hell! It seldom is). OUCH. keep smilin', > buddro. > Grant. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:35 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > > > "Pettingill!" > > "Yes sir!" > > "We're mighty lucky to have only one loss on this strike. Why did you > break > > formation?" > > Well, sir, Ackerman was in trouble, two engines on fire and we were > getting > > enemy fighters. I thought I should stay back with him and help him > through > > the target." > > "Ackerman a pretty good friend of yours?" > > "Yes, sir, my roomate, sir." > > "So, for the sake of your roomate you violated Group Integrity? When you > > pull a B-17 out of formation, you reduce the defesive firepower of the > Group > > by ten guns. Every gun on a B-17 is designed to give the Group maximum > > defensive firepower. That's what I mean by Group Integrety. A crippled > > aeroplane has to be expendable! The one thing which is never expendible > is > > your obligation to this Group. This Group! This Group! That must be > your > > only loyalty, your only reason for being!" > > "Stovall!" > > "Yes sir!" > > "Have the billeting officer work out a complete reassignment of quarters > so > > that every man has a new roomate!" > > "Yes, sir!" > > "Pettingill!" > > "Yes sir!" > > "You are reassigned to The Leopard Colony!" > > > > Yep, I've watched that movie 1,000 times. OUTSTANDING! But I doubt if > any > > Group considered themselves a "hard luck" outfit or ever had all pilots > > request a trasfer because of a tough CO. Geez, just take a look at > LeMay's > > Group! > > Kevin > > > > > > > > >From: Thor542086@aol.com > > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > >To: 303rd-tal@-303rdbga.com > > >CC: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies > > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:48:04 EDT > > > > > >Another good B-17 movie was Twelve'O Clock High with Gregory Peck made in > > >1949. It is a classic > > >By the way, if any of you served with retired Gen. Lou Lyle, he was on > The > > >Discovery Wings Channel last week. > > >Terry Lucas > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 04:23:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:23:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape References: <3ACCC858.3883.A4A366@localhost> Message-ID: <002401c0be49$01dc9fe0$d2904d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , sir. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend this > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, and Donald Kehne > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For his sake , I am truly > > happy to see the response. > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the quality, but the content. > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's lots of great shots > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine will go to Bill > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... pass it around and > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once again, Don, thanks > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 04:57:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:57:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Freezing in the service of your country. Message-ID: <004c01c0be4d$c93002e0$d2904d0c@o3n4f8> I have lived in England, both North and South. I remember vividly how cold it got in the Winter. I am truly appalled that men who flew in sub arctic conditions had to come back to a base where it was necessary to raid the coke pile for fuel to heat their barracks. That these same men could not take a warm shower, let alone a hot one. That vast quanties of unresolved used engine oil was restricted from use as fuel to heat quarters , or at least water. If this is the truth, I hope you guys will fill in some of the blanks for some of the rest of us spoiled brats who may think we have had it tough. Thumbs up. Palidin. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 07:51:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich Young) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:51:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #226 -12 O'CLOCK HIGH Message-ID: >The planes that Terry Lucas saw in 12 O'clock High were from the 427th >Squadron. The planes were in an elevated echelon and I was copilot in the far >right B-17 Hello Bill Dallas- I have viewed 'your' scenes in a number of films, both documentary and movies since first seeing them at your reunion in Seattle in '85. I am astonished by the rapid vertical movement of each aircraft in relation to each other and wonder how one could fly with any semblance of close formation with this amount of motion. Is this an illusion of the camera lens or an accurate portrayal? ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 08:57:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 00:57:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies References: <59.93bde30.27fe44a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ACD7704.7610D242@attglobal.net> Spec ... When Bergie and I flew those scenes (flights) we were on active duty at Molesworth in WW#2 (the one we won) .... Cheers! Bill Heller IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > bill, wre you and bergie still in military service then or civilian? when was > molesworth torn down from it's wwii appearance? thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 13:00:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:00:34 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE:Lube, Oil & Filter Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B38@ner-msg06.neast.attws.com> > Hello all, > You guys have been talking allot about the Wright Cyclones here this > week. Of interesting note the Curtiss Wright factory that was located in > Paterson N.J. still stands today a few miles from my house. You can't miss > the factory from Interstate 80 as you pass it. Its a large building, but > it's the strange shape that really catches your eye, all along the roof > there must be 30 or 40 huge square blocks made of brick. These were the > test cells for the radial engines! The engines would be hoisted up into > these chambers and operated prior to shipment. My Dad (303rd 427th) who > grew up in Clifton NJ recalls that you could hear the roar of the factory > for miles around day and night during the war years. Can you imagine > having a squadron of B-17 engines running like that in the middle of a > city! > Today the factory is used by many different companies, mostly its a > self storage facility. > Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 13:05:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Patrick Maher) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape In-Reply-To: <3ACCC858.3883.A4A366@localhost> Message-ID: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Please add me to the route! William Patrick Maher Jr. 1802 Tulane Drive Richardson, TX 75081 (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan crew.) Regards. --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > this > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > and Donald Kehne > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > his sake , I am truly > > happy to see the response. > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > quality, but the content. > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > lots of great shots > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > will go to Bill > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > pass it around and > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > again, Don, thanks > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 13:52:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:52:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #229 12 O'Clock High Message-ID: To: Rich Young, As I recall we were told to simulate evasive action by up and down movements. At one time we, our plane, was told to move up 6 inches. I was flying at the time so I gave a bit of back pressure to the yoke and was told that was fine. I could never understand why 6 inches was so important except, to get all of us in the frame of the camera. Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 14:25:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:25:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c0be9d$15d99da0$20914d0c@o3n4f8> I have your address and will pass it on. Thumbs up. lg ----- Original Message ----- From: William Patrick Maher To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Please add me to the route! > William Patrick Maher Jr. > 1802 Tulane Drive > Richardson, TX 75081 > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > crew.) > > Regards. > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > this > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > and Donald Kehne > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > his sake , I am truly > > > happy to see the response. > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > quality, but the content. > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > lots of great shots > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > will go to Bill > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > pass it around and > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > again, Don, thanks > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 14:58:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 08:58:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder Message-ID: As long as we are talking about 12 O'Clock High, did any of you vets fly any of the planes depicted in William Wylder's Memphis Belle. It is my understanding that Wylder used over 100 cameras for that movie and shot many scenes at other bases. In fact, in the opening scene they show a church. Many 91st BG vets could never figure that one out because the church at Royston at the end of the Number 25 long runway at Bassingbourn had a steeple on it. As it turns out, the church shown is one from Alconbury. I have watched both of these movies hundreds of times since I was a kid. And I must say it is a real honor to be able to talk to you men who flew these aircraft that were depicted in these movies!!! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 14:48:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 08:48:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Norden bombsight Message-ID: After sending my query yesterday about my Norden bombsight, I did a little checking last night and found a book on the internet about the Norden called "The Legendary Norden Bombsight." I ordered it and will soon have, I hope, most of my questions answered. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 14:51:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 08:51:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg Message-ID: Greg: I received your voice mail last night about donating to museums. My Norden will go to one of two places - either the American Air Museum at Duxford of the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn, and only if they provide in writing assurance the sight will be displayed. Thanks for your comments and I am well aware of the unscrupulish nature of some museums. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 14:55:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:55:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story Message-ID: > BTW, I forgot to mention that the mission that the story came from > was the July 25 1943 Hamburg mission, that I know is of interest to > at least one other member of the list, although it only mentions the > Quinine crew. Sorry, I meant to say the June 25th Hamburg mission. The Palmer (Avenger) and Mack (Witche's Tit) crews were also downed on that mission. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 16:45:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:45:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Goldfish Club Message-ID: <002501c0beb0$aa7cc8c0$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Friends, here is an interesting site from some folks I met at the HB's Talk. For anyone who might be interested in the history of the Goldfish Club (survivors of Aircraft ditchings) how it came into being , and where the HQ is today. There are only about 450 registered members and there is no officially sanctioned website. YET. http://www.geocities.com/b24gunr2000/index.html its worth the trip. LG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 16:52:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 10:52:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: Harry: I am sending you a detailed e-mail with a list of my concerns and I hope you will reply. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 16:54:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:54:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story References: Message-ID: <003501c0beb1$e5fc9b40$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for sharing that article Bill. I found an old newspaper clipping describing a badly shot up B-17 brought home by Donald Stockton. I'll put it on the scanner and see if it is legible enough to share. Cheers. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:40 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Walter Cronkite story > I was reading through the 360thBS microfilm today, (which isn't > easy, because the quality is poor), and I came across one of many > news clippings that were copied on the film. It was the story of the > "Quinine", which I had read about before, both on the new CDROM > and when I borrowed a copy of Might in Flight. > However on glancing at the news clipping, I noticed that the > author was none other than Walter Cronkite. I had known that he > was a reporter who had spent time in Molesworth, but I had never > read anything he wrote about the 303rd, so I thought it was > interesting. If anyone is interested in the article, I captured a poor > quality image of the clipping off the microfilm, and wrote up as best > I could, a text version. It is at: > http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/quinine.html > > I may not leave it there long though, since I'm not sure about the > copywrite implications. > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 17:21:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:21:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder References: Message-ID: <003d01c0beb5$a1facc60$553f22d1@billowen> Kevin, I also have that documentary. In the first few minutes it shows the planes taking off on a mission. One that it shows is DESPERATE JOURNEY, the plane my brother's crew (Joseph Palmer Crew-360th Squadron) flew over from the States. They lost the plane soon after arriving in England and never got it back. The view of the plane in the documentary shows 11 or 12 missions painted on. The 303rd plane list shows DESPERATE JOURNEY but no mention of what happened to it. Would anyone out there know which group it may have gone to or what may have become of the plane? ...... Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder > As long as we are talking about 12 O'Clock High, did any of you vets fly any > of the planes depicted in William Wylder's Memphis Belle. It is my > understanding that Wylder used over 100 cameras for that movie and shot many > scenes at other bases. In fact, in the opening scene they show a church. > Many 91st BG vets could never figure that one out because the church at > Royston at the end of the Number 25 long runway at Bassingbourn had a > steeple on it. As it turns out, the church shown is one from Alconbury. > > I have watched both of these movies hundreds of times since I was a kid. > And I must say it is a real honor to be able to talk to you men who flew > these aircraft that were depicted in these movies!!! > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 17:21:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:21:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder References: Message-ID: <003d01c0beb5$a1facc60$553f22d1@billowen> Kevin, I also have that documentary. In the first few minutes it shows the planes taking off on a mission. One that it shows is DESPERATE JOURNEY, the plane my brother's crew (Joseph Palmer Crew-360th Squadron) flew over from the States. They lost the plane soon after arriving in England and never got it back. The view of the plane in the documentary shows 11 or 12 missions painted on. The 303rd plane list shows DESPERATE JOURNEY but no mention of what happened to it. Would anyone out there know which group it may have gone to or what may have become of the plane? ...... Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder > As long as we are talking about 12 O'Clock High, did any of you vets fly any > of the planes depicted in William Wylder's Memphis Belle. It is my > understanding that Wylder used over 100 cameras for that movie and shot many > scenes at other bases. In fact, in the opening scene they show a church. > Many 91st BG vets could never figure that one out because the church at > Royston at the end of the Number 25 long runway at Bassingbourn had a > steeple on it. As it turns out, the church shown is one from Alconbury. > > I have watched both of these movies hundreds of times since I was a kid. > And I must say it is a real honor to be able to talk to you men who flew > these aircraft that were depicted in these movies!!! > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 17:34:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:34:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes Message-ID: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> I have just returned from the 303rd site. I read the information under the Monahan crew photo. There is a description of one of the gunners being killed in his parachute. I know that some of you have friends that flew with the Luftwaffe that you respect as fellow airmen. I am aware that incidents like this took place regularly. I would appreciate hearing the perspective from both sides. Was this action sanctioned in some of the Luftwaffe Sq.s, or in all of them? If not , I wonder if any punishment was imposed (tho I sincerely doubt there was). Spyder, did our fighter pilots shoot German pilots in their chutes? Please understand that I ask this question reluctantly, and without the intention of stirring up old animosities. I want to come to terms with this issue. Feel free to contact me privately if the question is too sensitive. Thank you. LG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 17:44:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:44:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c0be9d$15d99da0$20914d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001901c0beb8$dec53560$48f833cf@richards> LLoyd: Please add Spider to your list Richard Smith 790 Crenshaw Dr. Hemet ,Ca. 92543 Can we make copies? Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > I have your address and will pass it on. Thumbs up. lg > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Patrick Maher > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > Please add me to the route! > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > > crew.) > > > > Regards. > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > > this > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > > quality, but the content. > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > lots of great shots > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > > will go to Bill > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > > pass it around and > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > again, Don, thanks > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 21:01:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 10:01:33 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's In-Reply-To: <20010403.092325.-602305.0.billrunnels@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010406100133.0080dad0@ilhawaii.net> Bill, I don't remember Chester Muluchnik, but I am sure we must have met, either at briefings or debriefings or in the mess hall. I do remember seeing his plane go down. One of the 262's attacked and shot off most of vertical stabilizer of their plane. Their plane fell back and went down on the next pass. On its next pass the 262 came in low at us and broke in two as it passed. I was shooting at it when it went down, but so were a lot of B-17 gunners and I don't know who got the credit. As it was my last mission, I didn't much care. The ME-262 pilots were extremely brave, flying through our formations so close we almost felt like we could touch them. It was my first time to fire at enemy planes. It was our last mission and in many ways the most memorable. As soon as we turned on to the bomb run we ran into heavy flak. I heard a loud burst of flak and saw gasoline running off our wing. I thought it was the end and called our pilot to report. It turned out the co-pilot was transferring fuel from the tokyo tanks and overfilled one of the tanks. As we came off the bomb run we were hit by the ME-262s and were under attack for about 30 minutes. One of my link chutes was missing and my turret was filling up with links from the ammo belts. Suddenly I started getting extremely cold. I had visions of all kinds of frostbite and tried to check the heated suit connection under my seat. I could not get at it because my turret was so full of links. I had to wait until the fighter left before i could run my guns down to get the links out of the way and reconnect my suit. I think everyone on our crew got out and kissed the ground when we got back from this mission. Regards, Jim Walling At 09:23 AM 4/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Jim, I wasn't on #341 to Hamburg but I have two friends who were. >Possibly you know them. SSGT Chester Maluchnik, RO on the Francis Taub >Crew, 358th Sqd. They were flying #43-39160, one of the two aircraft lost >in the ME-262 attack. Chet got out okay and was a POW. I will have >breakfast with him tomorrow morning so should you have a message for him >let me know. The other friend was on the Denison Crew, 427th Sqd. Walter >D O'hearn, TG. He is credited with downing one of the 262's. > Regards.....Bill Runnels > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 22:18:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:18:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Molesworth Tape In-Reply-To: References: <3ACCBE7B.27888.7E1DF3@localhost> Message-ID: <3ACDD049.8922.5DC11A@localhost> To Everyone who wants to view the Molesworth tape: I'll officially appoint Lloyd Grant as the "keeper of the tape list" for both copies of the tape. When you've finished with it (sure, duplicate it if you like), contact Lloyd at: palidin@worldnet.att.net to see where to send it next. My copy is now on its way to Bill Bergeron in San Antonio. Bill will send it on to someone when he's finished. To get on the list, send you name and address to Lloyd at: palidin@worldnet.att.net and he will keep track of where the tapes are and where they are going next..... (gee, I hope that's ok with Lloyd, maybe I shoud have ask him first.) Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 22:22:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:22:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... In-Reply-To: <38.1470c6e1.27fe8396@gateway.net> Message-ID: <3ACDD118.9073.60EC23@localhost> > the video of Molesworth which has really taken off, like a B-17. I'm > wondering if there is any way that this video could be put on its own > site, temporarily, for everyone to view. I'm not familiar enough with > the workings of the computer world to even know if it's possible, but > it would be interesting to see if it What you suggest is technically possible, but impractical and impossible for me as I don't have the capability to do it here. It will look much better on your TV than your computer screen anyway. I suspect the tapes will move around the country pretty fast. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 21:34:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:34:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... Message-ID: graciously grand and thanks don for your input fopr assn. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 21:38:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:38:15 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Movies Message-ID: <78.1302f8a2.27ff8337@aol.com> great to know you were in service. did ya'll get any credits in film trailer as to cast,etc? hope you did. spec any extra pay or other benefits? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 21:42:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:42:46 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape References: <3ACCC858.3883.A4A366@localhost> Message-ID: <001901c0beda$24b0fa20$f80110ac@Betac.com> Gary - Please take me off the chat talk until 17 April; out of country on business trip. Thanks. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re:Vol 1 #226;mes.#18-Lloyd's tape > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend this > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, and Donald Kehne > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For his sake , I am truly > > happy to see the response. > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the quality, but the content. > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's lots of great shots > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine will go to Bill > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... pass it around and > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once again, Don, thanks > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 20:56:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill L Runnels) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:56:36 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Me 262's and Me 163's Message-ID: <20010406.145638.-595077.1.billrunnels@juno.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_47da.63c3.3c07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, thanks for the reply. I will see Chet in a week or so and give him a copy of your report. As previously stated, I missed that mission but remember seeing the holes in the aircraft following their return. What a day for your last mission. Best personal regards. Bill Runnels ----__JNP_000_47da.63c3.3c07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim,  thanks for the reply. I will see Chet in a week or so and = give=20 him a copy of your report. As previously stated, I missed that mission but= =20 remember seeing the holes in the aircraft following their return. What a = day for=20 your last mission.
 
Best personal regards.
 
Bill Runnels
----__JNP_000_47da.63c3.3c07-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 22:36:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:36:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video... References: <3ACDD118.9073.60EC23@localhost> Message-ID: <005601c0bee4$189f7c20$77184e0c@o3n4f8> Don Kehne is adding another tape to the circuit. It is going to Maurice Paulk, then I think to Dick Smith. I am keeping track of names and address as best I can, so if you arent sure where to send it next let me know. This should get the tape around pretty quickly. Thank you Don, and Gary. Lloyd. . I > suspect the tapes will move around the country pretty fast. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 22:40:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:40:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Molesworth Tape References: <3ACCBE7B.27888.7E1DF3@localhost> <3ACDD049.8922.5DC11A@localhost> Message-ID: <005701c0bee4$2e764e20$77184e0c@o3n4f8> No sweat Gary. I am a bit surprised at the interest inspired by the tape, but it is rewarding to know that Dons' effort was not fruitless. It was my idea to offer the tape, so I will gladly take on the ATC role. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Molesworth Tape > To Everyone who wants to view the Molesworth tape: > > I'll officially appoint Lloyd Grant as the "keeper of the tape list" for > both copies of the tape. When you've finished with it (sure, > duplicate it if you like), contact Lloyd at: palidin@worldnet.att.net to > see where to send it next. My copy is now on its way to Bill > Bergeron in San Antonio. Bill will send it on to someone when he's > finished. To get on the list, send you name and address to Lloyd at: > palidin@worldnet.att.net and he will keep track of where the tapes > are and where they are going next..... (gee, I hope that's ok with > Lloyd, maybe I shoud have ask him first.) > > Thanks, > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 22:45:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:45:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <20010406120546.8870.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c0be9d$15d99da0$20914d0c@o3n4f8> <001901c0beb8$dec53560$48f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <005801c0bee4$380d71c0$77184e0c@o3n4f8> Spider, Don Kehne is mailing one out as well so there will be three tapes on the circuit. I have asked Maurice Paulk to forward the tape to you after he it finished with it. If the tape is worth copying , by all means copy it. I cleared this with Don. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > LLoyd: > Please add Spider to your list > Richard Smith > 790 Crenshaw Dr. > Hemet ,Ca. 92543 > Can we make copies? > Spider > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 6:25 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > I have your address and will pass it on. Thumbs up. lg > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Patrick Maher > > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:05 AM > > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > > > > Please add me to the route! > > > William Patrick Maher Jr. > > > 1802 Tulane Drive > > > Richardson, TX 75081 > > > > > > (My father was navigator with the Monahan crew. If the > > > tape makes it to me, I'll take it over to Pete Clark's > > > to watch it with him. Pete was co-pilot on the Monahan > > > crew.) > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > --- Gary Moncur wrote: > > > > > Jeez, what a relief! I promise I did not intend > > > > this > > > > > loaner deal to get out hand. It is worth sharing, > > > > and Donald Kehne > > > > > went above and beyound the call to make it. For > > > > his sake , I am truly > > > > > happy to see the response. > > > > > > > > Glad to help. It's a great video - well, not the > > > > quality, but the content. > > > > It's about 25-30 minutes with no sound. There's > > > > lots of great shots > > > > of the early B-17s a Molesworth..... Thumper, > > > > 8-Ball, etc. Acutally, I > > > > made an extra copy, so I have one to spare. Mine > > > > will go to Bill > > > > Bergeron first, then I don't care where it goes..... > > > > pass it around and > > > > maybe someday it will find its way home. Once > > > > again, Don, thanks > > > > for the tape. That was very thoughtful of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > > > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > > > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 23:08:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:08:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Circling the target Message-ID: I was reading through my 360th BS microfilm (again). This time I was reading the notebook entries for mission #2, ie Nov 18 1942 . The account of the mission said that they encountered heavy flak during the bomb run, and several planes were hit, however it said that the flak was "not severe enough to prevent them from circling the target observing several hits and fires while photographing Same." This seemed interesting to me, ie that they would risk going through the flak a second time just to get a look at the damage they had done. This was also a mission where they were apparently way off course, and bombed the wrong target. Both of the above suggests that the group wasn't in a bomber stream where they could see the other groups. I guess that back when there weren't as many groups going to a target that they must have been pretty much on their own out there. I guess there are good and bad aspects about that, ie despite being the only target, there would have been more of an element of suprise. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 23:18:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:18:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder References: Message-ID: <002f01c0bee7$77497700$433f22d1@billowen> Bill Jones, I don't know how you uncover information as you do but you seem to have a knack for getting it. A diary of one of the Palmer crew said the DESPERATE JOURNEY broke through the runway and was damaged. It was sent for repair. That happened on Mar 22, '43 so I'm sure it is the same plane. Another piece of the puzzle in place. Thanks once again, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: "Bill Owen" Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Memphis Belle by William Wylder > Ther was a Desperate Journey (42-3053) that was delivered to the > 91st BG in March of 1943, but I thought that the Palmer crew flew > over in April, so it may be a different plane. > > > On 6 Apr 01, at 11:21, Bill Owen wrote: > > > Kevin, I also have that documentary. In the first few minutes it shows the > > planes taking off on a mission. One that it shows is DESPERATE JOURNEY, the > > plane my brother's crew (Joseph Palmer Crew-360th Squadron) flew over from > > the States. They lost the plane soon after arriving in England and never got > > it back. The view of the plane in the documentary shows 11 or 12 missions > > painted on. The 303rd plane list shows DESPERATE JOURNEY but no mention of > > what happened to it. Would anyone out there know which group it may have > > gone to or what may have become of the plane? ...... Bill Owen > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 6 23:41:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:41:48 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <006601c0beea$c4aef940$433f22d1@billowen> Lloyd, I'm sure that there were probably a lot of German pilots that would do such a thing. There were others who were more compassionate, honorable or whatever you might want to call it. The tail gunner on the Palmer crew said that on his way down a German fighter came after him and he thought he was going to be strafed. Instead, the pilot prop washed him over to dry land instead of landing in the water...and he couldn't swim. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > I have just returned from the 303rd site. I read the information under the > Monahan crew photo. There is a description of one of the gunners being > killed in his parachute. I know that some of you have friends that flew > with the Luftwaffe that you respect as fellow airmen. I am aware that > incidents like this took place regularly. I would appreciate hearing the > perspective from both sides. Was this action sanctioned in some of the > Luftwaffe Sq.s, or in all of them? If not , I wonder if any punishment was > imposed (tho I sincerely doubt there was). Spyder, did our fighter pilots > shoot German pilots in their chutes? Please understand that I ask this > question reluctantly, and without the intention of stirring up old > animosities. I want to come to terms with this issue. Feel free to contact > me privately if the question is too sensitive. Thank you. LG. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 00:28:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:28:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <006601c0beea$c4aef940$433f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: <001901c0bef1$44b85220$e28e4d0c@o3n4f8> This is what I would rather believe, Bill. I am sure that all sides had some renegades and I would like to believe also that veteran pilots on both sides had some degree of chivalry toward a defeated adversary. The fact remains , none-the-less, that helpless men were killed in their parachutes. It is not difficult to imagine the rage German pilots must have felt toward the men in the Bombers. I believe that for the most part the pilots in the Luftwaffe were honorable men doing their duty and protecting their homeland, as were the men in our Air Forces. What led to me bring this subject up was a story I heard on the History Channel inwhich the pilot of a P-51 saw a German fighter purposely shooting a NUMBER (not one) of bomber crew in parachutes. The pilot said that he chased the German pilot down and purposely shot up his plane to force him to bail out. And then he killed the guy. If shooting guys in their parachutes was accepted practice ( which I have a hard time believing that was true) I would like to address the issue, then put in away in the "bad memories" file once the truth has been discussed. Naturally, if the question is generally ignored by the ones who were THERE, then I will opt for the side of discretion and let it rest. Thank you for your reply,sir, and very best to you. Lloyd The tail gunner on the Palmer crew said > that on his way down a German fighter came after him and he thought he was > going to be strafed. Instead, the pilot prop washed him over to dry land > instead of landing in the water...and he couldn't swim. Bill Owen > > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 00:30:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:30:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes In-Reply-To: <006601c0beea$c4aef940$433f22d1@billowen> Message-ID: > Lloyd, I'm sure that there were probably a lot of German pilots that would > do such a thing. There were others who were more compassionate, honorable or > whatever you might want to call it. There was a story posted on the heavy-bomber list about a year ago about a B-17 that was severely shot up, lost at least 2 engines, was on fire, all the guns were out of commission, holes all through it, completely defenseless, loosing altitude...just barely able to stay aloft. Apparently a German fighter came accross the crippled plane, and the pilot apparently didn't have the heart to shoot down a plane that was so defenseless, and actually flew along side, and escorted it to the channel, at which point he saluted the B-17 pilot and turned away. I don't know if the story is true, but it makes a good story. If true, the fighter pilot probably risked being shot for the compassion. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 00:45:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:45:04 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ditching Message-ID: <7c.141a58eb.27ffaf00@aol.com> --part1_7c.141a58eb.27ffaf00_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For more information on ditching see: http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish,com http://www.303rdbga.com/ditch.html A good book about ditching and the goldfish club is: "A Drop in the Ocean" - Dramatic Accounts of Aircrew Saved from the Sea by Jim Burtt-Smith & John French 1996, London, Leo Cooper, 176 pages, 6" x 9". Hardbound, B&W photos ISBN 0-85052-5071-1 Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_7c.141a58eb.27ffaf00_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For more information on ditching see:
http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish,com
http://www.303rdbga.com/ditch.html

A good book about ditching and the goldfish club is:
"A Drop in the Ocean" - Dramatic Accounts of Aircrew Saved from the Sea
by Jim Burtt-Smith & John French
1996, London, Leo Cooper, 176 pages, 6" x 9". Hardbound, B&W photos
ISBN 0-85052-5071-1

Harry D. Gobrecht --part1_7c.141a58eb.27ffaf00_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 01:26:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:26:43 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <007601c0bef9$6d614800$51f833cf@richards> We were told by our intelligence officer (who by the way never experienced combat) that we should shoot German pilots in their chutes as far as I know we all refused . Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:34 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > I have just returned from the 303rd site. I read the information under the > Monahan crew photo. There is a description of one of the gunners being > killed in his parachute. I know that some of you have friends that flew > with the Luftwaffe that you respect as fellow airmen. I am aware that > incidents like this took place regularly. I would appreciate hearing the > perspective from both sides. Was this action sanctioned in some of the > Luftwaffe Sq.s, or in all of them? If not , I wonder if any punishment was > imposed (tho I sincerely doubt there was). Spyder, did our fighter pilots > shoot German pilots in their chutes? Please understand that I ask this > question reluctantly, and without the intention of stirring up old > animosities. I want to come to terms with this issue. Feel free to contact > me privately if the question is too sensitive. Thank you. LG. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 02:08:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:08:08 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape Message-ID: <98.130a3731.27ffc278@aol.com> --part1_98.130a3731.27ffc278_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---Accepting your kind offer,I'd appreciate being put on the list; Michael L. Zarelli 19 Greenbrook Road Green Brook, N.J. 08812 Many thanks --part1_98.130a3731.27ffc278_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd---Accepting your kind offer,I'd appreciate being put on the list;
                  Michael L. Zarelli
                  19 Greenbrook Road
                  Green Brook, N.J. 08812
                                                                  Many thanks


--part1_98.130a3731.27ffc278_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 04:07:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:07:42 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <98.130a3731.27ffc278@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c0bf0f$eb767ec0$7a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Michael, I am swelled with a feeling of self importance now that I am The Official ATC for this project. ( If your sister is rich and unattached, Mr. we can work something out here), if not, what the heck. WE (all of you, and me) will try to get it to you as fast as possible. Youre on the "list" pard, cheers. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Lloyd---Accepting your kind offer,I'd appreciate being put on the list; > Michael L. Zarelli > 19 Greenbrook Road > Green Brook, N.J. 08812 > Many thanks > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 04:25:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:25:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ditching References: <7c.141a58eb.27ffaf00@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c0bf12$5f1e1f20$7a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , sir. I read some excerpts from that on the internet while trying to find an " official" web site for some friends. I have been "goldfished" out of a sailboat, but never out of an airplane. My inquirey was essentially rhetorical. I have heard from a lot of people wanting information. I learned alot from Eddie Deerfields page at the 303rd BGA. I am out of work (by choice) so I tell everyone that I am a writer and a research analyst. Thus my three day beard and disheveled appearance seem natural. ( the analyst part sometimes is good for a free beer). In a more serious vein, Harry, I would like for you to understand how extraordinarily priviledged I feel to be a part of this Association, to thank you and everyone ( some who have shown incredible patience and understanding) involved for what you have done. Thumbs up to all. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 7:45 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ditching > For more information on ditching see: > http://www.303rdbga.com/goldfish,com > http://www.303rdbga.com/ditch.html > > A good book about ditching and the goldfish club is: > "A Drop in the Ocean" - Dramatic Accounts of Aircrew Saved from the Sea > by Jim Burtt-Smith & John French > 1996, London, Leo Cooper, 176 pages, 6" x 9". Hardbound, B&W photos > ISBN 0-85052-5071-1 > > Harry D. Gobrecht > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 04:27:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:27:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <007601c0bef9$6d614800$51f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002a01c0bf12$a9240300$7a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > We were told by our intelligence officer (who by the way never experienced > combat) that we should shoot German pilots in their chutes as far as I know > we all refused . > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:34 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > > > > I have just returned from the 303rd site. I read the information under > the > > Monahan crew photo. There is a description of one of the gunners being > > killed in his parachute. I know that some of you have friends that flew > > with the Luftwaffe that you respect as fellow airmen. I am aware that > > incidents like this took place regularly. I would appreciate hearing the > > perspective from both sides. Was this action sanctioned in some of the > > Luftwaffe Sq.s, or in all of them? If not , I wonder if any punishment > was > > imposed (tho I sincerely doubt there was). Spyder, did our fighter pilots > > shoot German pilots in their chutes? Please understand that I ask this > > question reluctantly, and without the intention of stirring up old > > animosities. I want to come to terms with this issue. Feel free to > contact > > me privately if the question is too sensitive. Thank you. LG. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 04:28:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:28:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: <005601c0beb7$7cc5bc00$fb1b4e0c@o3n4f8> <007601c0bef9$6d614800$51f833cf@richards> Message-ID: <002e01c0bf12$dc6818a0$7a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, sir. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > We were told by our intelligence officer (who by the way never experienced > combat) that we should shoot German pilots in their chutes as far as I know > we all refused . > Spider > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:34 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > > > > I have just returned from the 303rd site. I read the information under > the > > Monahan crew photo. There is a description of one of the gunners being > > killed in his parachute. I know that some of you have friends that flew > > with the Luftwaffe that you respect as fellow airmen. I am aware that > > incidents like this took place regularly. I would appreciate hearing the > > perspective from both sides. Was this action sanctioned in some of the > > Luftwaffe Sq.s, or in all of them? If not , I wonder if any punishment > was > > imposed (tho I sincerely doubt there was). Spyder, did our fighter pilots > > shoot German pilots in their chutes? Please understand that I ask this > > question reluctantly, and without the intention of stirring up old > > animosities. I want to come to terms with this issue. Feel free to > contact > > me privately if the question is too sensitive. Thank you. LG. > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 04:32:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:32:33 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes References: Message-ID: <003901c0bf13$a2577ba0$7a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. I would always rather believe the best in people, and often truth is odder than fiction. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Attacking parachutes > > > Lloyd, I'm sure that there were probably a lot of German pilots that would > > do such a thing. There were others who were more compassionate, honorable or > > whatever you might want to call it. > > There was a story posted on the heavy-bomber list about a year > ago about a B-17 that was severely shot up, lost at least 2 > engines, was on fire, all the guns were out of commission, holes all > through it, completely defenseless, loosing altitude...just barely > able to stay aloft. Apparently a German fighter came accross the > crippled plane, and the pilot apparently didn't have the heart to > shoot down a plane that was so defenseless, and actually flew > along side, and escorted it to the channel, at which point he > saluted the B-17 pilot and turned away. > I don't know if the story is true, but it makes a good story. If > true, the fighter pilot probably risked being shot for the > compassion. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 06:50:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:50:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] tape Message-ID: <000c01c0bf26$978aeaa0$383fafd8@e4rb0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0BEEB.E912F6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward a copy of that tape to=20 Jay Primavera (Son of S/Sgt Benjamin Spring 360th) 21 Country Club Drive Sullivan IL 61951 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0BEEB.E912F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please forward a copy of that tape to =
Jay Primavera
(Son of S/Sgt Benjamin Spring = 360th)
21 Country Club Drive
Sullivan IL 61951
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0BEEB.E912F6A0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 06:55:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:55:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform decorations Message-ID: <001701c0bf27$56aa3940$383fafd8@e4rb0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0BEEC.A8E345C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to piece together my fathers uniform ornaments, Waist Gunner = with the 360th from 4/43-7/43, POW from 7/43 until repatriation in 10 of = 43. I have the list of medals awarded based on his discharge papers, = but I need to know all of the decorations, ribbons, patches orr? that = would complete a S/Sgts uniform. The originals were destroyed by fire = in the late 50's and no photos exist. Additionally I have found a = web-site that sells such items. Does anyone know the quality of their = product? Thanks ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0BEEC.A8E345C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to piece together my = fathers uniform=20 ornaments, Waist Gunner with the 360th from 4/43-7/43, POW from 7/43 = until=20 repatriation in 10 of 43.  I have the list of medals awarded based = on his=20 discharge papers, but I need to know all of the decorations, ribbons, = patches=20 orr?  that would complete a S/Sgts uniform.  The originals = were=20 destroyed by fire in the late 50's and no photos exist.  = Additionally I=20 have found a web-site that sells such items.  Does anyone know the = quality=20 of their product?  Thanks
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0BEEC.A8E345C0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 07:00:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:00:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lt. Castle Message-ID: <002401c0bf28$1c5fa080$383fafd8@e4rb0> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0BEED.6E87E420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know what happen to Lt. John A Castle of the 360th. I = appears he flew a few missions and then fell off the planet following = #30. He is not reported as KIA or POW and seems to have survived the = final flight intact. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0BEED.6E87E420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know what happen to Lt. = John A Castle=20 of the 360th.  I appears he flew a few missions and then fell off = the=20 planet following #30.  He is not reported as KIA or POW and seems = to have=20 survived the final flight intact.
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0BEED.6E87E420-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 07:19:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jay and Robin Primavera) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:19:38 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Strafing Parachutists Message-ID: <004001c0bf2a$baf31b80$383fafd8@e4rb0> This practice has long confused me so I read several books, spoke with an former German officer who is a WW2 historian and I spoke with a tail gunner who survived having been shot down. It seems one thing in common was the "Yellow Nose". They were supposed to be under Goerring school of thought and that air war maintained chivalry. My father told of parachuting out of the Butch on 7.25.43 and having a fighter circle him. My father prepared to be strafed but the pilot simply waved, my father waved back and then the fighter was gone. My research indicates that the Red Nose, who were younger and brasher committed most parachute strafing and parachute toppings. I have heard first hand accounts of the Yellow Nose Pilots showing kindness to capture flyers, including feeding them. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 05:44:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:44:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform decorations References: <001701c0bf27$56aa3940$383fafd8@e4rb0> Message-ID: <002a01c0bf1d$66184fc0$36184e0c@o3n4f8> I think you would not have to pay for the decorations, Jay, if your father was entitled to them you may be able to have them replaced by "a greatful goverment". Stay tuned before you spend any money on stuff made in Bangledash, or Pango Pango, one of the men here will lay the truth on you, count on it. And, ok, you are on the list. It really isnt that long, so hang in we will get it to you. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay and Robin Primavera To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 1:55 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Uniform decorations I am trying to piece together my fathers uniform ornaments, Waist Gunner with the 360th from 4/43-7/43, POW from 7/43 until repatriation in 10 of 43. I have the list of medals awarded based on his discharge papers, but I need to know all of the decorations, ribbons, patches orr? that would complete a S/Sgts uniform. The originals were destroyed by fire in the late 50's and no photos exist. Additionally I have found a web-site that sells such items. Does anyone know the quality of their product? Thanks From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 05:50:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:50:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Strafing Parachutists References: <004001c0bf2a$baf31b80$383fafd8@e4rb0> Message-ID: <003001c0bf1e$4545cba0$36184e0c@o3n4f8> Jay, thanks. This is the kind of information that helps clear the air and corrects stereotyping the honest men with the image of the sadists who perpetrated these acts. Again, thank you. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay and Robin Primavera To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:19 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pilot Strafing Parachutists > This practice has long confused me so I read several books, spoke with an > former German officer who is a WW2 historian and I spoke with a tail gunner > who survived having been shot down. It seems one thing in common was the > "Yellow Nose". They were supposed to be under Goerring school of thought > and that air war maintained chivalry. My father told of parachuting out of > the Butch on 7.25.43 and having a fighter circle him. My father prepared to > be strafed but the pilot simply waved, my father waved back and then the > fighter was gone. My research indicates that the Red Nose, who were younger > and brasher committed most parachute strafing and parachute toppings. I > have heard first hand accounts of the Yellow Nose Pilots showing kindness to > capture flyers, including feeding them. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 06:18:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 01:18:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape Message-ID: <000f01c0bf22$319c6420$36184e0c@o3n4f8> A quick note. Most of the men who served at Molesworth will find some nostalgic reminders. In order not to mislead anyone who was not there, please keep in mind that there is no sound track on this tape, there is no life and death combat footage. It is essentially " a page torn from time " the intent was to give an image, not so much to entertain. Knowing that, please also remember that it is a pleasure to share it with all of you. G'night to all. LG. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 07:41:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Todd Hollritt) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape Message-ID: <20010407064110.45257.qmail@web9304.mail.yahoo.com> > From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:08:08 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Lloyd---Accepting your kind offer,I'd appreciate > being put on the list; > Michael L. Zarelli > 19 Greenbrook Road > Green Brook, N.J. 08812 > > Many thanks Since it's passing through NJ add me to the list! Mike my address is... Todd Hollritt 51 Wallace Lane West Paterson NJ 07424 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 14:40:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:40:10 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape References: <20010407064110.45257.qmail@web9304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008b01c0bf68$45c1b2c0$8a904d0c@o3n4f8> Done deal Todd. Will get it to as quick as possible. Best. Lg ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Hollritt To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:41 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape > > From: Mlzsilverfox@aol.com > > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:08:08 EDT > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Lloyd---Accepting your kind offer,I'd appreciate > > being put on the list; > > Michael L. Zarelli > > 19 Greenbrook Road > > Green Brook, N.J. 08812 > > > > Many thanks > Since it's passing through NJ add me to the list! Mike > my address is... > > Todd Hollritt > 51 Wallace Lane > West Paterson NJ 07424 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 17:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:40:10 -0400 Message-ID: <15988-3ACF3BAF-621@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Dear Lloyd' please add my name to your list of Molesworth Viewers. James L Phillips 1906 Dorchester ave' Kalamazoo' Michigan 49001-5217. I ws stationed at Molesworth in 1951 with the 582nd Air Resupply Sqdn. We were a B-29 outfit that made supply drops in Germany. I was a flight engineer and flew in and out of Molesworth many times' Does anyone remember the old church steeple at the end of the east/west runway? Please reply about your list of the video many thanks Lloyd'. Sincerely. Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 18:08:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 13:08:14 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape References: <15988-3ACF3BAF-621@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000d01c0bf85$5805bae0$c3b34d0c@o3n4f8> Jim, I am gratified to see all of the interest in this tape. Where have you all been hiding? An air drop to you has been scheduled. Will contact you when it is airborne. I have another 1951-52 B-29 respondant. You guys should get together. When my dad was in B-47s we were TDY at Sculthorpe about the time you were at Molesworth. Thumbs up. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: JAMES PHILLIPS To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape > Dear Lloyd' please add my name to your list of Molesworth Viewers. > James L Phillips > 1906 Dorchester ave' Kalamazoo' Michigan > 49001-5217. I ws stationed at Molesworth in 1951 with the 582nd Air > Resupply Sqdn. We > were a B-29 outfit that made supply drops > in Germany. I was a flight engineer and flew in and out of Molesworth > many times' Does anyone remember the old church steeple > at the end of the east/west runway? > Please reply about your list of the video > > many thanks Lloyd'. > > Sincerely. Jim. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 19:25:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:25:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] DONS' Molesworth tape Message-ID: <015701c0bf90$1805c100$c3b34d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Owen, Bill Bergeron, and Maurice Paulk. When you have got the tape please let me know, some rerouting may be in order to minimize postage costs and timely delivery for /and/ to all. If not totally disappointed, a thank you to Don Kehne C/O the 303rd Talk might be appropriate. Hope you all have a great weekend. I have volunteered to work at the Sun & Fun this coming week so you will all have a welcome relief from yours truly and my incessant banter. I will monitor and record any additional requests for the tape. I hope to get some close-ups of the Great Warbirds that show up for this event every year, and make some new friends in the process. Cheers. Lloyd Grant , Molesworth Tape ATC & former Pres. Coyote Airlines. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 19:45:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:45:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape In-Reply-To: <008b01c0bf68$45c1b2c0$8a904d0c@o3n4f8> References: <20010407064110.45257.qmail@web9304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010407144153.00a923c0@home.1usa.com> At 09:40 AM 4/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >Done deal Todd. Will get it to as quick as possible. Best. Lg >After the tape leaves NJ, maybe I could get the Tape here in PA. or whenever, no big rush. Edward L. Frank 1135 Elm, St. Reading, PA. 19604 610-376-4458 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 22:03:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 15:03:57 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: "Desperate Journey" References: <20010407160421.A661753677@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3ACF80BC.C33130D6@uswest.net> Hi all- I've been one of the "sideliners" for several months and have greatly enjoyed the conversation on the site (OK - most of it, anyway). Like some of the others, I'm amazed at the depth and breadth of knowledge that's out there and have developed much respect and admiration for the men of the 8th AF and the job they did. About 5 months ago I decided to learn more about my uncle, 2Lt. RV Black, Jr., a co-pilot who I knew had been killed in a B-17, but not much more than that. I first came across the 303rd when trying to find out which Group he was in (91st/324th Sq as it turns out). When I learned that the 324th was home of the legendary Memphis Belle, I got very excited and determined to learn more about the Belle, too. (Turns out that Jack Miller, my uncle's command pilot, flew the Belle on 19 May and also co-piloted with Morgan on two earlier missions, too.) That's when I learned about "Hell's Angels" and that it was actually the first to 25. So first, a tip of the hat to #577 and its crew! It's important that the truth be known, and you can rest assured that even though I'm very proud of what my uncle and his crew did in the terrible early part of the war, and that they flew with the Belle, I also hasten to add in conversations that history has been skewed by Hollywood. While the Belle was the first 25-mission plane and crew to be sent back to the States, they were not, in fact, the first to join "The Lucky Bastards Club," and I let that be known. All of which is a very long-winded way of leading to my point. My uncle was killed on #857, an unnamed '17, on 21 May 43 on the Wilhemshaven mission. The 91st had the lead that day, and Miller and my uncle were flying right wing to 23053, DF-Z, "Desperate Journey" in the high squadron of the second element. This particular plane arrived overseas on 18 March 43 and was at Honington on 30 March. According to 91BG records, if I read them correctly, it was "regained" on 31 March. By that, I infer that it had been assigned elsewhere before returning to the 91st. Thus...it may be the same plane you refer to. However it should be noted that plane names were not copyrighted, so different planes in different groups may have had the same name. For instance, there was also a "Hell's Angels" in the 91st. But if you have a photo of the plane that shows the tail number, and it's 23053, it's the same plane. On the mission of the 21st, the group was jumped by 100-150 fighters who stood off until the formation turned to the IP when, according to one account, "all Hell broke loose." The lead plane took a 20mm in the nose, wounding the lead navigator. As the formation began to loosen up, the fighters were able to penetrate. In the second pass, they came in from the flanks up to 12 abreast, while another group of twin-engine fighters dropped bombs on the group from above. Six 190s and Bf 109s attacked the second element from 1 o'clock high. The element's lead plane, #515, "Marie Jane," DF-H, was lost with all its crew. "Desperate Journey" went down with all but two. Its pilot, Lt. Norbert D. Koll, was among the casualties. 857 was badly hit and on fire, its navigator and waist gunners killed or severely wounded, but Miller held it together long enough for the bombardier, BTG, Tail Gunner and Engineer to jump. As my uncle helped the wounded pilot to the bomb bay to bail out, the plane exploded, killing all onboard who had survived the gun and cannon fire. I hope that this information helps, and I look forward to continuing to learn about the 8th AF from your excellent mail ring. Mike McClanahan From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 23:05:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Mike McClanahan) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:05:29 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Correction re Miller & Belle Message-ID: <3ACF8F28.B25B8EA0@uswest.net> I made an error re the mission on which Jack Miller flew the Belle. He was pilot on the May 14 mission to Kiel, not on the 19th as I originally stated. The 19th was the Belle's 25th mission (Kiel again). This is also an error on the 303rd site, which has Miller in the Belle on the 19th instead of the 14th. Sorry, Mike From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 7 23:32:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 18:32:21 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape References: <20010407064110.45257.qmail@web9304.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20010407144153.00a923c0@home.1usa.com> Message-ID: <001701c0bfb2$9f1f81e0$798f4d0c@o3n4f8> Three tapes, three time zones. Not a bad idea at all , Ed. I have you on the EST curcuit. It may take a wee while, but you will recieve the tape. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward L Frank To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Lloyd's Tape > At 09:40 AM 4/7/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Done deal Todd. Will get it to as quick as possible. Best. Lg > >After the tape leaves NJ, maybe I could get the Tape here in PA. > or whenever, no big rush. > Edward L. Frank > 1135 Elm, St. > Reading, PA. > 19604 > 610-376-4458 > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 8 12:13:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dale Jensen) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:13:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Aircraft transfers Message-ID: <000f01c0c01c$fc23dd40$6949b218@spngfld1.il.home.com> Numerous times I've read where brand new replacement aircraft were transferred to a different group after only 2 or 3 days at their initial assignment. The first unit obviously needed the aircraft also or they wouldn't have received it. Was there not a steady supply of replacements? Any thoughts? Dale Jensen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 8 21:28:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:28:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Message #8 07 Apr 2001 Message-ID: --part1_f7.8e1067e.280223db_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike McClanahan Thanks for finding the error in the 303rdbga.web page, viz: http://www.303rdbga.com/h-ha-mb.html Footnote [F] should read: [F] Memphis Belle Pilot J.H. Miller on 14 May 43 - Capt Morgan in London. Footnote [F] now shows May 19 in error. The mission chart is correct for 14 May 43 showing mission 22 [F] in the Memphis Belle MISS# column. Gary Moncur will correct the web page error. Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_f7.8e1067e.280223db_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike McClanahan
Thanks for finding the error in the 303rdbga.web page, viz:
http://www.303rdbga.com/h-ha-mb.html

Footnote [F] should read:
[F] Memphis Belle  Pilot J.H. Miller on 14 May 43 - Capt Morgan in London.
Footnote [F] now shows May 19 in error.
The mission chart is correct for 14 May 43 showing mission 22 [F] in the
Memphis Belle MISS# column.
Gary Moncur will correct the web page error.
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_f7.8e1067e.280223db_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 07:37:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:37:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Unusual Propellers Message-ID: <001c01c0c0bf$9fb80e20$401b4e0c@o3n4f8> A note over the top of a four bladed aluminum propeller seen at the Sun & Fun Museum 4/8/01. "108" diameter ground adjustable four blade propeller, does anyone know what plane or engine this was designed for?" I have a bet that my friends know the answer. If I lose, well, I have a lot of floors to sweep and planes to wash. ( dang, I see you all grinning ...) Cheers. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 07:46:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:46:44 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Talk digest, Vol 1 #228,message#7 from Heller about film footage Message-ID: <3d.a0de7aa.2802b4d4@aol.com> --part1_3d.a0de7aa.2802b4d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Yes Bill Heller was correct in message # 7 (talk digest of 5 April-01). We both did a lot of landing and takeoffs as seen in the film footage. In one scene in the movie, "Twelve-O-Clock High", I forgot to put my landing gear up. On 8 February of 44 I had 2:30 of B-24 copilot time, I was Col.Lyles' copilot that day. I thought the movie "Command Decision" was much better put together. Bill and I also built a "coal" bin to store that gold (remember???.) . Have many of you seen the film "Whispers In The Air" made by the British?. One night in early 1945, I was driving a jeep across a runway (having to go about a mile and a half to get to the meeting) and since the fog was so heavy and visibility was zero, I got lost and never made the group to set up my crew list for a mission (358th squadron). I ended up having to use the telephone.....cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_3d.a0de7aa.2802b4d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      Yes Bill Heller was correct in message # 7 (talk digest of  5
April-01). We both did a lot of landing and takeoffs as seen in the film
footage. In one scene  in the movie, "Twelve-O-Clock High", I forgot to put
my landing gear up. On 8 February of 44 I had 2:30 of B-24 copilot time, I
was Col.Lyles' copilot that day.
      I thought the movie "Command Decision" was much better put together.
Bill and I also built a "coal" bin to store that gold (remember???.) . Have
many of you seen the film "Whispers In The Air" made by the British?.
      One night in early 1945, I was driving a jeep across a runway (having
to go about a mile and a half to get to the meeting) and since the fog was so
heavy and visibility was zero,  I got lost and never made the group to set up
my crew list for a mission (358th squadron). I ended up having to use the
telephone.....cheers
      Bill Bergeron
--part1_3d.a0de7aa.2802b4d4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 08:46:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 03:46:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Talk digest, Vol 1 #228,message#7 from Heller about film footage References: <3d.a0de7aa.2802b4d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c0c0c9$219a6560$238f4d0c@o3n4f8> Bill Bergeron, If only love were the sheets we had given you to lie upon, And compassion ; a pillow you could trust, there might be no need of talking, nor any need to remember. I will make it a point to see the films you mentioned. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Cc: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 2:46 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Talk digest, Vol 1 #228,message#7 from Heller about film footage > To All, > Yes Bill Heller was correct in message # 7 (talk digest of 5 > April-01). We both did a lot of landing and takeoffs as seen in the film > footage. In one scene in the movie, "Twelve-O-Clock High", I forgot to put > my landing gear up. On 8 February of 44 I had 2:30 of B-24 copilot time, I > was Col.Lyles' copilot that day. > I thought the movie "Command Decision" was much better put together. > Bill and I also built a "coal" bin to store that gold (remember???.) . Have > many of you seen the film "Whispers In The Air" made by the British?. > One night in early 1945, I was driving a jeep across a runway (having > to go about a mile and a half to get to the meeting) and since the fog was so > heavy and visibility was zero, I got lost and never made the group to set up > my crew list for a mission (358th squadron). I ended up having to use the > telephone.....cheers > Bill Bergeron > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 15:39:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:39:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Seeking assistance with Hell's Angels book project Message-ID: --part1_ac.1326fef2.280323a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I have been accepted to put togehter a pictorial history of the Hell's Angels for Arcadia Publishing's Images of Aviation series. I was inspired to create this book after I discovered a scrapbook of my great uncle Kasmer Wegrzyn who was a member of the Hell's Angels crew of Capt. Irl Baldwin in the plane that was originally known as "D for Dog" and later was the first to adopt the name Hell's Angels. I am planning for the focus of the book to be on this particular crew, since I already have many pictures of the crew members, but would also like to include general information on the Hell's Angels as an entire group, to honor all of the men who served during this time. I would appreciate any photos or information that you would be willing to share with me for this project. The photos must be originals, which I would give proper attribution to and return when I was finished with them. The deadline for this project is the end of this May so I would appreciate any speedy replies. I live in Western Massachusetts and can be reached at WriteValerie@cs.com or by calling 413-789-6144. Also, if anyone reading this has any information or photos about the following crew members who are reported in one newspaper article from 1943 to have been members of this "original" Hell's Angels crew that I wrote of earlier, please let me know if they are still alive, and if so, how I may be able to contact them: Capt. Harold Fulghum of Lubbock, Tex.; 1/Lt. Paryley W. Madsen Jr., of Provo, Utah; Capt. Irl Baldwin of Yakima, Wash.; 1/Lt. Donald R. Bone of Temple, Okla.; bombardier and Sgts. James James E. Rodrigues of South Ozone Park, N.Y., top turret gunner; Russell M. Warren of Sante Fe, N.M., radioman-gunner; Sgt. Allerton F. Medbaugh Jr., of New Milford, Conn., waist gunner; Harry J. Brody, of Glendive Mont., ball turret gunner; Dennis Weiskopf , of Miami, Fla., waist gunner; and Harold E. Godwin of Los Angeles, Calif., tail gunner. 1/Lt. Ripley W. Joy of San Francisco, Calif. And, members of the ground crew force: Sgts. Fabian F. Folmer of Mansfield, Ohio, crew chief; Robert C. Whitson of Achille, Okla.; Ernest Toohey, of Mountain Home, Arkansas; John J. O'Brien, of Boston, Mass.; Edward A. West Jr., of Newport News, VA; George A. Roberts of Statesbury, W. VA; Wilson F. Fairfield of Sturbridge, Mass.; Cpl. John R. Kasilla of North Tarrytown, NY; and Pvts. William C. Holman, of Northport, Ala.; George C. Kelly of North Hollywood, Calif.; and Ival E. Salisbury, of Howard, Kan. Once again, thank you for any help you may be able to provide me, Valerie Smart WriteValerie@cs.com 413-789-6144 --part1_ac.1326fef2.280323a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings,

I have been accepted to put togehter a pictorial history of the Hell's Angels
for Arcadia Publishing's Images of Aviation series. I was inspired to create
this book after I discovered a scrapbook of my great uncle Kasmer Wegrzyn who
was a member of the Hell's Angels crew of Capt. Irl Baldwin in the plane that
was originally known as "D for Dog" and later was the first to adopt the name
Hell's Angels. I am planning for the focus of the book to be on this
particular crew, since I already have many pictures of the crew members, but
would also like to include general information on the Hell's Angels as an
entire group, to honor all of the men who served during this time.
I would appreciate any photos or information that you would be willing to
share with me for this project. The photos must be originals, which I would
give proper attribution to and return when I was finished with them. The
deadline for this project is the end of this May so I would appreciate any
speedy replies.
I live in Western Massachusetts and can be reached at WriteValerie@cs.com or
by calling 413-789-6144.
Also, if anyone reading this has any information or photos about the
following crew members who are reported in one newspaper article from 1943 to
have been members of this "original" Hell's Angels crew that I wrote of
earlier, please let me know if they are still alive, and if so, how I may be
able to contact them:

Capt. Harold Fulghum of Lubbock, Tex.; 1/Lt. Paryley W. Madsen Jr., of Provo,
Utah; Capt. Irl Baldwin of Yakima, Wash.; 1/Lt. Donald R. Bone of Temple,
Okla.; bombardier and Sgts. James James E. Rodrigues of South Ozone Park,
N.Y., top turret gunner; Russell M. Warren of Sante Fe, N.M.,
radioman-gunner; Sgt. Allerton F. Medbaugh Jr., of New Milford, Conn., waist
gunner; Harry J. Brody, of Glendive Mont., ball turret gunner; Dennis Weiskopf
, of Miami, Fla., waist gunner; and Harold E. Godwin of Los Angeles, Calif.,
tail gunner. 1/Lt. Ripley W. Joy of San Francisco, Calif. And, members of the
ground crew force: Sgts. Fabian F. Folmer of Mansfield, Ohio, crew chief;
Robert C. Whitson of Achille, Okla.; Ernest Toohey, of Mountain Home,
Arkansas; John J. O'Brien, of Boston, Mass.; Edward A. West Jr., of Newport
News, VA; George A. Roberts of Statesbury, W. VA; Wilson F. Fairfield of
Sturbridge, Mass.; Cpl. John R. Kasilla of North Tarrytown, NY; and Pvts.
William C. Holman, of Northport, Ala.; George C. Kelly of North Hollywood,
Calif.; and Ival E. Salisbury, of Howard, Kan.
Once again, thank you for any help you may be able to provide me,

Valerie Smart
WriteValerie@cs.com
413-789-6144 --part1_ac.1326fef2.280323a4_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 16:47:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:47:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Desperate Journey Message-ID: <001101c0c10c$6de582e0$2e3f22d1@billowen> Mike McClanahan, thank you so very much for your well written and informative letter concerning the Desperate Journey. I feel certain that this was the same plane that the Palmer crew flew to England. They arrived at St. Eval, near Newquay, on Mar.19. Went to Alconberry on the 22nd where a wheel broke thru the runway and the plane had to go for repairs...don't know where. This info is from a diary of a crew member. After repairs were made then the plane must have been assigned to the 91st on March 31. The Palmer crew attended school at a Replacement Combat Center, learning German combat tactics, until being sent to the 303rd BG, 360th Squadron on Apr. 7. Before discovering the 303rd website last year I did not know the name of the plane (planes) that the Palmer crew flew. I just assumed that they had kept the plane that they flew to England. Then after finding that they never made a mission in Desperate Journey I was naturally curious to know what happened to that plane. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Another piece of the puzzle in place for my family history. Relating to another matter, Dale Jensen asked about planes being assigned to units and the availability of planes. I don't know the answer to that. I do know that there were 18 B-17's that made up the group that the Palmer crew flew with to England. I would think that planes were being sent as fast as they could be manufactured and usually in pretty large groups for safety reasons. I would imagine that the planes were assigned as needed after they reached England. They were losing planes at a pretty rapid rate at that time so all groups were probably wanting new planes almost daily. I'm sure someone out there knows a lot more about this aspect of the effort to put the planes where they were most needed. Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 23:40:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:40:31 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Desperate Journey Message-ID: <7a.1324d36c.2803945f@aol.com> in defense dept. there must be a record of method of assignments. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 9 23:50:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:50:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Seeking assistance with Hell's Angels book project Message-ID: <57.1433877d.280396ce@aol.com> this would be good if writer was to dedicate some funds to the mighty 303rd ,the8th etc. agreed? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 00:37:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:37:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Unusual Propellers Message-ID: Please delete me from this mailing list. Thanks, Bill William L. Beigel Torrance, CA (310) 791-3949 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 15:08:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:08:12 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Fwd Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <018f01c0c1c7$af1c6420$3c904d0c@o3n4f8> FRIENDS, Please note the direct e-mail address below and use it to contact me when you are ready to forward the Molesworth Tape to the next person on the list. This will help expedite the deployment of the various tapes, and relieve Gary of the burden of passing along msgs to me. Thank you , and very best wishes to all. Lloyd Grant Subj: Molesworth Tape To: palidin@worldnet.att.net From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 15:33:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:33:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: When a B-17 is taxing for take-off (or after landing), there is this medium pitched whine that can be heard over the engines and brakes. It sounds like some kind of motor that starts and stops periodically. At first I thought it was the motor driving the flaps, but am not so sure now. You can hear this noise on the CD Round Sounds, and I also hear this on a tape I made when I flew on Texas Raiders a few years ago. Can anyone guess as to what this noise might be? Bob Hand, since you have the CD, could you listen to the B-17 tract and venture a guess? Thanks! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 15:35:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Fwd Molesworth tape. In-Reply-To: "Lloyd J Grant" 's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:08:12 -0400 Message-ID: <11054-3AD31A44-2927@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Dear Lloyd' I sent you my home address but im not sure you got it. please let me know so i can be in contention for the Molesworth tape. Thanks again' Jim From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 15:51:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise In-Reply-To: "Kevin Pearson" 's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:33:14 -0500 Message-ID: <11054-3AD31DEC-2936@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I flew in B29's and there was a similar noise as can recall = could it have been brake squal? What do you think? Best regards Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 16:31:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Hey Jim: Thanks for responding. Maybe it was the brakes. The brakes made screeching noises when they were applied, that is, when the brake pads came in contact with the brake disks (I think the Forts had disks mounted on the Olio struts.) Was there also a pump motor that supplied hydraulic fluid to the brakes? Maybe that is the noise I hear in the background. The noise sounds like a motor of some kind. It winds up in a few seconds, then you hear it at a constant pitch for a few seconds, and then it cuts out altogether. And you can hear the complete cycle several times on the Round Sounds CD as the Fort taxis for takeoff. Kevin >From: JLPHILLIPS01@webtv.net (JAMES PHILLIPS) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:51:24 -0400 (EDT) > >I flew in B29's and there was a similar noise as can recall = could it >have been brake squal? >What do you think? > >Best regards > >Jim. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 16:47:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise In-Reply-To: "Kevin Pearson" 's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:31:34 -0500 Message-ID: <15395-3AD32B0D-2237@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Kevin' Could that noise have been the inverter that you heard? What do you think? Our inverter in the 29;s use to make a whineing noise when the flaps were lowered or raised. Nice to talk to you Kevin Regards. Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 16:58:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:58:34 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Apology Message-ID: To the entire 303rd chat group: A few days ago I made a remark about the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum, something to the effect that I did not believe in the long-term viability of the museum. I took a little flak for that comment and so I wrote a long e-mail to Harry Gobrecht (see I really can spell your name correctly), stating all of the concerns I have heard about the museum since its founding back in the early 90s. Much of the information I received came from several sources, who at the time of the founding of the museum, were completely against the museum. I am very pleased to say I spent about an hour on the phone yesterday speaking with Buck Schuler. Buck, as most of you know, along with Lew Lyle, are the founders of the museum. I was very candid with Buck about the concerns I had, and one by one, he dispelled each to my complete satisfaction. The information I was given was out of date and in most cases out-and-out wrong, especially the information I had been given regarding the bonds issued by Chatham County. THE MUSEUM IS NOT IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE AND NEVER HAS BEEN. The bonds issued by Chatham County were structured in a way to assure the long-term viability of the museum. Therefore, I must offer a sincere apology to this group for my unfounded comments. My only regret is that I did not seek out the truth from the source a long time ago. I am mailing my membership check today and offered my volunteer services to the museum at the discretion of the museum staff. Since I am the one who first started stirring this pot, I wanted to be the first to set the record straight in case any of you have any doubts because of my former comments. And I would like to thank Buck Schuler for taking the time to educate me on this important project. It just goes to show you that if we all work together, keep open minds, and not get bogged down in diatribe, we can do justice for all those who fought and died serving in the Eighth Air Force. Kevin PS - See, Lloyd, even I put my foot in my mouth once in a while. Hopefully, we can all learn something from my mistakes. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 17:14:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:14:39 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Jim: I don't know what the inverter sounded like, so I guess this is possible. I thought the inverter was to convert DC to AC? The noise I hear can be heard throughout the entire ship, especially in the nose of the a/c. Would the oxygen system just beneath the pilot in the catwalk leading to the navigator's position have made such a noise? This is one question that keeps coming back to me whenever I watch my video on my B-17 flight. Thank you for trying to help me solve this mystery. Kevin >From: JLPHILLIPS01@webtv.net (JAMES PHILLIPS) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) > >Kevin' >Could that noise have been the inverter that >you heard? What do you think? Our inverter in the 29;s use to make a >whineing noise when the flaps were lowered or raised. >Nice to talk to you Kevin >Regards. Jim. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 17:33:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:33:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise References: Message-ID: <3AD335D4.8711703F@attglobal.net> Kevin ... It could be the use of brakes now and then, which, at times, produced squeals. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > When a B-17 is taxing for take-off (or after landing), there is this medium > pitched whine that can be heard over the engines and brakes. It sounds like > some kind of motor that starts and stops periodically. At first I thought > it was the motor driving the flaps, but am not so sure now. You can hear > this noise on the CD Round Sounds, and I also hear this on a tape I made > when I flew on Texas Raiders a few years ago. > > Can anyone guess as to what this noise might be? Bob Hand, since you have > the CD, could you listen to the B-17 tract and venture a guess? > > Thanks! > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 17:46:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:46:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Apology References: Message-ID: <000f01c0c1dd$d4ab4060$e2184e0c@o3n4f8> Good for you Kevin. Thank you. Very best to you, sir. Lloyd (the one who always seems to have a size 9 &1/2 in HIS mouth.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Apology > To the entire 303rd chat group: > > A few days ago I made a remark about the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage > Museum, something to the effect that I did not believe in the long-term > viability of the museum. I took a little flak for that comment and so I > wrote a long e-mail to Harry Gobrecht (see I really can spell your name > correctly), stating all of the concerns I have heard about the museum since > its founding back in the early 90s. Much of the information I received came > from several sources, who at the time of the founding of the museum, were > completely against the museum. > > I am very pleased to say I spent about an hour on the phone yesterday > speaking with Buck Schuler. Buck, as most of you know, along with Lew Lyle, > are the founders of the museum. I was very candid with Buck about the > concerns I had, and one by one, he dispelled each to my complete > satisfaction. The information I was given was out of date and in most cases > out-and-out wrong, especially the information I had been given regarding the > bonds issued by Chatham County. THE MUSEUM IS NOT IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE AND > NEVER HAS BEEN. The bonds issued by Chatham County were structured in a way > to assure the long-term viability of the museum. > > Therefore, I must offer a sincere apology to this group for my unfounded > comments. My only regret is that I did not seek out the truth from the > source a long time ago. I am mailing my membership check today and offered > my volunteer services to the museum at the discretion of the museum staff. > > Since I am the one who first started stirring this pot, I wanted to be the > first to set the record straight in case any of you have any doubts because > of my former comments. > > And I would like to thank Buck Schuler for taking the time to educate me on > this important project. It just goes to show you that if we all work > together, keep open minds, and not get bogged down in diatribe, we can do > justice for all those who fought and died serving in the Eighth Air Force. > > Kevin > > PS - See, Lloyd, even I put my foot in my mouth once in a while. Hopefully, > we can all learn something from my mistakes. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 19:07:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:07:57 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Thanks, Bill, but the noise I hear is a mechanical noise of some kind, I think, unrelated to the brakes. Perhaps the noise I hear is a hydraulic pump of some kind or in the oxygen system. I honestly would love to know. If I was more of an expert with this damn computer, I could post the noise in an audio file. Kevin >From: William Heller >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:33:24 -0700 > >Kevin ... > >It could be the use of brakes now and then, which, at times, produced >squeals. > >Cheers! > >Bill Heller > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > When a B-17 is taxing for take-off (or after landing), there is this >medium > > pitched whine that can be heard over the engines and brakes. It sounds >like > > some kind of motor that starts and stops periodically. At first I >thought > > it was the motor driving the flaps, but am not so sure now. You can >hear > > this noise on the CD Round Sounds, and I also hear this on a tape I made > > when I flew on Texas Raiders a few years ago. > > > > Can anyone guess as to what this noise might be? Bob Hand, since you >have > > the CD, could you listen to the B-17 tract and venture a guess? > > > > Thanks! > > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 21:10:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:10:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: <26.13d3b083.2804c299@aol.com> I shamefully admit I don't have my CD yet...waiting for my birthday, I guess. But that high pitched whine that sounds so familiar I think is traceable to the brakes being applied which kept the Forts fishtailing during taxi for visibility. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 21:24:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:24:41 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise References: Message-ID: <3AD36C08.FDE6F7A1@attglobal.net> Kevin ... You may be correct on the hypdraulic system, but not the oxygen system which was entirely passive .... merely tanks under pressure. I can recall in certain airliners of the US, of which I flew quite a flew as Captain ... there are many many little "motors" underneath the floor which run things ... and many airlines chose planes which had those noises muffled or located in other places so as not to worry passengers. Such were prominent in certain British airliners immediately after the war as well. Anent hydraulics, the reason we shut down outer engines and taxied with inner was to allow the hydraulics to be powered. Also the reason #3 was started first in some instances. Time takes its toll and after all these years since the war it is at times difficult to remember certain things which were second nature to us then. Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Thanks, Bill, but the noise I hear is a mechanical noise of some kind, I > think, unrelated to the brakes. Perhaps the noise I hear is a hydraulic > pump of some kind or in the oxygen system. I honestly would love to know. > If I was more of an expert with this damn computer, I could post the noise > in an audio file. > Kevin > > >From: William Heller > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise > >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:33:24 -0700 > > > >Kevin ... > > > >It could be the use of brakes now and then, which, at times, produced > >squeals. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Bill Heller > > > >Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > When a B-17 is taxing for take-off (or after landing), there is this > >medium > > > pitched whine that can be heard over the engines and brakes. It sounds > >like > > > some kind of motor that starts and stops periodically. At first I > >thought > > > it was the motor driving the flaps, but am not so sure now. You can > >hear > > > this noise on the CD Round Sounds, and I also hear this on a tape I made > > > when I flew on Texas Raiders a few years ago. > > > > > > Can anyone guess as to what this noise might be? Bob Hand, since you > >have > > > the CD, could you listen to the B-17 tract and venture a guess? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Kevin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 22:50:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:50:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Bob: If you do not get this CD like you think for your birthday, let me know. My son has a CD "burner" (I guess that's what they call them now) and I will burn you a copy. This is entirely legal now as the inside of most CDs do allow for copying and disrtibution for non commercial purposes. Say the word, Bob, and the disk is yours with one caveot. You have to listen to this noise I have been trying to describe and hopefully tell me what it is. The noise I don't think is the brakes. Maybe I'm just too stupid to accept it, but the noise I hear is some kind of motor winding up and down. I'm going to see my kids this weekend, and I will ask my son how to download this noise to an audiofile. Thanks everyone for replying to this question! Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:10:01 EDT > >I shamefully admit I don't have my CD yet...waiting for my birthday, I >guess. > But that high pitched whine that sounds so familiar I think is traceable >to >the brakes being applied which kept the Forts fishtailing during taxi for >visibility. Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 10 22:53:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:44 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy Message-ID: Hey guys: Here is a question from our good friend across the pond, Moofy. She was too embarrased to post this question herself. But since I've already made an ass out of myself this week, I guess I have nothing to loose. So if you can answer this, please help her. "In a number of crew lists I have noticed the rank of a Co-Pilot as a F/O,and thought I read somewhere that this stood for Flight Officer. What is the difference between a F/O and a 1st or 2nd Lt. ?? I know F/O in the RAF stood for Flying Officer and is equal to a 1st Lt in the USAF, and a Pilot Officer (P/O) is the eqivalent to a 2nd Lt. USAF." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 00:14:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy In-Reply-To: "Kevin Pearson" 's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:44 -0500 Message-ID: <19476-3AD393D0-665@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Hi-Kevin; Just a quick note to let you know that a Co= Pilot had to be a 1st Lt in order to be Co-Pilot. The RAF Had Pilot officers as pursuit pilots such as our fighter jocks. Also' let Bill know that noise could have been SERVO motors that service the flaps and landing gears. Cheers. Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 01:52:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:52:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy References: <19476-3AD393D0-665@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <004b01c0c221$b478d160$8cf833cf@richards> James : You are wrong I was a Co Pilot as a second Lt and many were F/O which was a non commissioned Rank the same as a Warent Officer for some snobbish reason later in the war many pilots were Warrant officers Probably West Pointers in the Army didn't like making Pilots Commissioned Officers. A friend F/O Miller in the 427th was killed as a Hero when he let all his crew bail out until it was too late for him. Enough said! Spider Ps : The noise was probably the alternators they supplied the power for many systems including the Auto Pilot which was necessary for the Bombsite to work. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES PHILLIPS" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy > Hi-Kevin; > Just a quick note to let you know that a Co= > Pilot had to be a 1st Lt in order to be Co-Pilot. > The RAF Had Pilot officers as pursuit pilots > such as our fighter jocks. Also' let Bill know > that noise could have been SERVO motors that > service the flaps and landing gears. > > Cheers. Jim. > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 05:51:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:51:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Moofy's questions. Message-ID: <000501c0c243$07d87ec0$49bb9ace@mjpmtman> MOOFY--I was Scout Master for about 10 years. I used to tell my scouts there was no such thing as a dumb question if you didn't know the answer to it Sometimes I might give them a dumb answer though.!! Now for the rest of you readers -- I have one for you. In my list of 26 missing comrades there was a Jack Magnabosco - F/P --36773392. THAT one stumps me! Incidentally I just rec'd word today from the VA in Linclon, NE--- Jack died 2-8-'94. 24 had death dates, no record or no address wwritten on the envelope. Two had file numbers on them and I have to send them back unsealed so the powers that be can see what the contents of the letter is. CARRY ON ! Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 05:55:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:55:10 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] AFTER THOUGHT Message-ID: <000501c0c243$97ed90e0$49bb9ace@mjpmtman> re:- Jack Magnbosco ---- the F/P was listed under "job" not rank Maurice J. Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 05:38:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:38:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: The only thing I can think of on a B17 that were operated by hydraulic pressure were the brakes and cowl flaps. Although I can't remember the details or were the pump was, it would be electric driven and would have come on & off with a pressure switch. This would mean if you were using the brakes when one taxied which we did, the pump would cycle on and off. It could conceivably be your noise. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 05:54:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:54:02 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy Message-ID: <14.1259f079.28053d6a@aol.com> A Flight Officers was a rank between a Master Sergeant and a 2nd lt. It was the same rank in the pecking order as a Warrant Officer. In the old days a Lt. and above was Commissioned. A Sergeant and below was enlisted and a Warrant Officer was neither. He was Warranted what ever that meant. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about anymore. MY hard drive is cracked, my ram doesn't and my floppy really does. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 06:24:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:24:53 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy References: Message-ID: <3AD3EAA5.BA20BD7C@attglobal.net> Kevin ... FO was a rank below a 2nd Lt., much the same as WO for Ground personnel (warrant officer). In Airline lingo an F/O is a First officer (the copilot), and has no indication for the military. FO was a RANK and it could be an aircraft commander as well as a copilot. I have seen crews with ALL FOs as the Officer crew of a B17 ... Cheers! Bill Heller Kevin Pearson wrote: > Hey guys: Here is a question from our good friend across the pond, Moofy. > She was too embarrased to post this question herself. But since I've > already made an ass out of myself this week, I guess I have nothing to > loose. So if you can answer this, please help her. > > "In a number of crew lists I have noticed the rank of a Co-Pilot as a > F/O,and thought I read somewhere that this stood for Flight Officer. What > is the difference between a F/O and a 1st or 2nd Lt. ?? > > I know F/O in the RAF stood for Flying Officer and is equal to a 1st Lt in > the USAF, and a Pilot Officer (P/O) is the eqivalent to a 2nd Lt. USAF." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 06:26:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:26:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy References: <19476-3AD393D0-665@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3AD3EB11.4D37C38D@attglobal.net> Jim Phillips .... WHERE did you get the idea a Copilot had to be a First Lieutenant? Not so. Cheers! Bill Heller JAMES PHILLIPS wrote: > Hi-Kevin; > Just a quick note to let you know that a Co= > Pilot had to be a 1st Lt in order to be Co-Pilot. > The RAF Had Pilot officers as pursuit pilots > such as our fighter jocks. Also' let Bill know > that noise could have been SERVO motors that > service the flaps and landing gears. > > Cheers. Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 06:31:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:31:42 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy References: <19476-3AD393D0-665@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <004b01c0c221$b478d160$8cf833cf@richards> Message-ID: <3AD3EC3D.BE414E50@attglobal.net> Now Spider! You know better than to make such disparaging remarks about our West Pointers .... Besides, that was NOT the reason. Things sort of got prolific and even the commissions came out as AUS instead of ORC (Officers Reserves Corps) ... I had one of those latter and it meant a nice bonus on top of everything else when you became inactive. You are right, we had lots of heroes who were FOs.... just another rank, but below that of 2nd Lt. Cheers, old arachnid ... Bill Heller Dick Smith wrote: > James : > You are wrong I was a Co Pilot as a second Lt and many were F/O which was a > non commissioned Rank the same as a Warent Officer for some snobbish reason > later in the war many pilots were Warrant officers Probably West Pointers in > the Army didn't like making Pilots Commissioned Officers. > A friend F/O Miller in the 427th was killed as a Hero when he let all his > crew bail out until it was too late for him. Enough said! > Spider > Ps : The noise was probably the alternators they supplied the power for many > systems including the Auto Pilot which was necessary for the Bombsite to > work. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JAMES PHILLIPS" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy > > > Hi-Kevin; > > Just a quick note to let you know that a Co= > > Pilot had to be a 1st Lt in order to be Co-Pilot. > > The RAF Had Pilot officers as pursuit pilots > > such as our fighter jocks. Also' let Bill know > > that noise could have been SERVO motors that > > service the flaps and landing gears. > > > > Cheers. Jim. > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 13:19:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:19:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: <7d.13ac6521.2805a5c0@aol.com> I'll happily listen for that "noise" for the CD copy....best offer I've had for many moons! Thanks in advance....have a good visit. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 13:24:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:24:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] FPO rank Message-ID: <003b01c0c282$694d8940$2b3f22d1@billowen> I was in the Army during the Korean war (pardon me...police action) and had a chance to become a Warrant Officer. If FPO is the same as a Warrant Officer then it is the rank between Master Sgt. and 2nd Lt. and carries the privileges of both an enlisted man and an officer. I could have extended my stay, gone to missle school for 18 months, become a Warrant Officer and been put in charge of one of the missle silos that they were to build all over the country at that time. Instead, I opted to become a PFC, Poor F------ Civilian. Bill Owen From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 13:57:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:57:41 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy..AUS vs USA In-Reply-To: <3AD3EC3D.BE414E50@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Things sort of got > prolific and even the commissions came out as AUS instead of ORC (Officers > Reserves Corps) ... I had one of those latter and it meant a nice bonus on top > of everything else when you became inactive. I have been confused as to what the difference between Army of the U.S. and U.S. Army was, and I know that one of those 2 was referred to as "regular army" and the other was more of a reserve status. Now I am further confused about what this ORC implied, would it be equivalent to the U.S. Army rather than the Army of the US? On my father's papers, I've seen both Army of the U.S and U.S.Army, so I'm not sure which he was in. Can you tell from the serial numbers which situation a person was in? Actually, my father had 2 serial numbers, one when he was a cadet at Lubbock Tx, and another one that he got the day after he graduated, which involved a discharge and re-enlistment on the same day I think. I wouldn't even be curious about these designations, except that I have been told by some airmen in another mailing list that there was apparently some degree of resentment or disrespect by airmen who were regular army of those who were on reserve status, and perhaps visa/versa ? And the previous post in this thread hinted at such a competition when mentioning (in jest I assume) the Academy graduates. I guess I am unclear about where these designations came from, I mean, by what route did a person join the service to become one desigation rather than the others? And what difference would there have been in training or experience? >From what I have learned from listening to all the stories, that most pilots (for example) went through pretty much the same type of training, ie I don't think it was a situation that regular army pilots went to one training center and reserve pilots went to another training center , or was it?? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 14:10:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:10:04 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Bob: Please send me your address and I will get this in the mail to you next Tuesday when I return from Easter. You will love it! Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:19:12 EDT > >I'll happily listen for that "noise" for the CD copy....best offer I've >had >for many moons! Thanks in advance....have a good visit. Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 14:14:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:14:47 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Jack R. Thanks for the reply! Do you remember hearing the hydraulic pump motor kick on a off with the use of the brakes? Hopefully, I can get my son to make what he calls a "wave" file this weekend so I can post for all to hear. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:38:10 EDT > >The only thing I can think of on a B17 that were operated by hydraulic >pressure were the brakes and cowl flaps. Although I can't remember the >details or were the pump was, it would be electric driven and would have >come >on & off with a pressure switch. This would mean if you were using the >brakes >when one taxied which we did, the pump would cycle on and off. It could >conceivably be your noise. > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 14:59:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy In-Reply-To: William Heller 's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: <28034-3AD4634C-309@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Dear Bill and Spider' I'm sorry i stand corrected about the co-pilot question. Also' i had completely forgoten about the NCO and Warrent oficer status. I spent my time inB29"s and it was during the Korean war. We had [worm screw drives] that powered our flaps and they were operated by Servo motors and not alternators. Respectfully--Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 14:59:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:59:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: <44.ce643bb.2805bd46@aol.com> Kevin, Yes I remember noises, and I probably knew what they were at the time but we had lots of servo motors,Turbos, squeaking brakes, Aux. generators, Gear & flaps going up and down, Turrets turnings and us copilots whistling Dixie. If we had an electric motor turning an oil pump for the cowl flaps and brakes, it would have an accumulator. For example the pump might come on automatically when the pressure got down to say 200 pounds per square inch and shut off when the pressure got up to say 400 Pounds. As the pressure got up close to the shut off pressure the electric motor would have more load on it and the pitch would change as the pressure increased. This might cause the sound that you described. Best Hearing, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 13:41:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:41:50 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: Speaking of the Museum; I am tentatively planning a cross country trip; = well, half cross country Texas--Virgina and am planning on going via = Savannah to visit the museum. One of those hit the road and go wherever = my mood takes me trips. I'll probably be leaving southeast Texas to = Shreveport, across to Georgia then up to Virginia, to visit Dad's family, = back through Tennessee, to Texarkana and back to the beautiful Texas Gulf = Coast. Any ideas of must see places to visit along my route; send to me at = ddrewry@mail.mainland.cc.tx.us so we don't tie up the talk forum and I'll = try to check them out. =20 So if you see a little black Corvette with DUKE on the license plates = surrounded by a 303BGA bracket and 303rd stickers on the back window, be = sure and wave. I'll probably be headed out of S'port about the 22nd or = 23rd. Quentin, I'll give you a call when I get to S'port. Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 21:14:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:14:50 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: <3AD458CA.32333.40625E@localhost> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: JLPHILLIPS01@webtv.net (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:08:42 -0400 (EDT) To: 303rdtalk@303rdBGA.Com Subject: Superchargers. Does anyone know if the B=17 had turbo superchargers are not? The B29's had them on our engines. Ours were R-3350s with master controls and direct fuel injection pumps with schronization bars between them. We also had twin turbo superchargers on each engine. with flight hoods to direct the exhaust away from the nacels. Our cowl flaps were hydraulic like the B-17s. Cherio for now' Jim ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 20:19:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:19:10 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy..AUS vs USA References: Message-ID: <3AD4AE2F.AB61EF87@attglobal.net> Bill Jones ... AUS status was NOT Regular Army. Also, we in the Air Corps of those daye were in the US Army Air Corps. The Air Force came about in 1947. Anent AUS vs. ORC, the ORC was the status just below that of Regular Army (at the time) and it denoted Officer Reserve Corps. Several of my friends a wee bit later to be commissioned than I, were given AUS commissions which were NOT Regular Army but even a lesser status than ORC at the time. Also, as stated, the ORC commissioned officer received a bonus of $500 for every year or fraction thereof that he was on "active" duty. This bonus was given when the Officer separated from the Service. I enjoyed mine. Also, when I received my commission it stated "Officers Reserve Corps, Air Corps Assigned." As for the serial numbers, I saw no indication of such on orders where BOTH statuses were listed. Of course, I am not cure of this for I do not know ... Cheers! Bill Heller Bill Jones wrote: > > > Things sort of got > > prolific and even the commissions came out as AUS instead of ORC (Officers > > Reserves Corps) ... I had one of those latter and it meant a nice bonus on top > > of everything else when you became inactive. > > I have been confused as to what the difference between Army of > the U.S. and U.S. Army was, and I know that one of those 2 was > referred to as "regular army" and the other was more of a reserve > status. Now I am further confused about what this ORC implied, > would it be equivalent to the U.S. Army rather than the Army of the > US? > On my father's papers, I've seen both Army of the U.S and > U.S.Army, so I'm not sure which he was in. Can you tell from the > serial numbers which situation a person was in? Actually, my > father had 2 serial numbers, one when he was a cadet at Lubbock > Tx, and another one that he got the day after he graduated, which > involved a discharge and re-enlistment on the same day I think. > I wouldn't even be curious about these designations, except > that I have been told by some airmen in another mailing list that > there was apparently some degree of resentment or disrespect by > airmen who were regular army of those who were on reserve status, > and perhaps visa/versa ? And the previous post in this thread > hinted at such a competition when mentioning (in jest I assume) > the Academy graduates. I guess I am unclear about where these > designations came from, I mean, by what route did a person join > the service to become one desigation rather than the others? And > what difference would there have been in training or experience? > >From what I have learned from listening to all the stories, that most > pilots (for example) went through pretty much the same type of > training, ie I don't think it was a situation that regular army pilots > went to one training center and reserve pilots went to another > training center , or was it?? > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 20:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:56:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Fwd Molesworth tape. Message-ID: thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 21:42:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:42:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: <3AD458CA.32333.40625E@localhost> Message-ID: <3AD4C1C4.128AEBB8@attglobal.net> The B17 had exaust driven turbo superchargers... which was the only reason we were able to fly at the altitudes we did. Diversion of this exhaust thru the superchargers drove the supercharger which forced more air into our manifold. Thus icing, reducing the air which became exhaust, also reduced the drive which drove our superchargers and thus they became ineffective when heavy icing was encountred. The so-called air-coolers did nothing to alleviate this situation and many of us DID NOT use the inter-coolers for this reason. We also gave each pilot a photo of this circulation to prove what false use of inter-coolers did to us. Mel Schulstad is very familiar with this as we did a lot of experimenting with it. Ceers! WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: JLPHILLIPS01@webtv.net (JAMES PHILLIPS) > Date sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:08:42 -0400 (EDT) > To: 303rdtalk@303rdBGA.Com > Subject: Superchargers. > > Does anyone know if the B=17 had turbo > superchargers are not? The B29's had > them on our engines. Ours were R-3350s > with master controls and direct fuel injection > pumps with schronization bars between them. > We also had twin turbo superchargers on each > engine. with flight hoods to direct the exhaust > away from the nacels. Our cowl flaps were > hydraulic like the B-17s. > > Cherio for now' Jim > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 21:44:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:44:51 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: James, Yes I know. The B17 had turbo superchargers. One each R1830-97 engine. It was controlled by a waste gate in the exhaust pipe. The F and G models had a rheostat control in the center of the cockpit that controlled all 4 superchargers by rotating one knob that was about 2 and one half inches in diameter. The earlier models had 4 lever controls that had to be set individually. One for each engine. Best Wishes to you B29 Jocks Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 22:10:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:10:02 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: According to my deceased friend, Lou LaHood (pilot, 91st BG, 322nd BS) the superchargers on the F models were manually controlled and were automatically controlled on the G model. He said flying formation was a bear in the F model because of constant adjustments to them made it very difficult to keep a tight formation. Then again the F model he was assigned when he first entered the ETO was almost war weary at the time. At one point he threatened his squadron CO that unless he got a new plane, he wasn't going to fly "that piece of junk" as he called it. Was this Lou's memory 50 years after the fact, or could a pilot tell his CO he wasn't going to fly a particular bird? It is my understanding hot exhaust gases from the manifold were routed to the exhaust mainifold waste gate and turned the impellor. The impellor drove the turbine which not only recirculated exhaust gases, but also increased the manifold pressure, alowing the Forts to fly at altitude. One more question. I've seen a number of Forts with the R1820-97 engine as well as the R1830-97 engine. Can anyone tell me the difference between the two besides a slight design change by Wright? Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:44:51 EDT > >James, Yes I know. The B17 had turbo superchargers. One each R1830-97 >engine. It was controlled by a waste gate in the exhaust pipe. The F and G >models had a rheostat control in the center of the cockpit that controlled >all 4 superchargers by rotating one knob that was about 2 and one half >inches >in diameter. The earlier models had 4 lever controls that had to be set >individually. One for each engine. > Best Wishes to you B29 Jocks > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 22:17:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:17:57 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from Moofy Message-ID: nope!! i had a 2nd lt. as b 17 co-pilot. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 11 22:29:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:29:48 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: <13.1413ab67.280626cc@aol.com> duke, where in va. is dad's? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 01:24:38 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:24:38 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak curtains Message-ID: <002001c0c2e6$f6ef04e0$41874d0c@o3n4f8> Gentlemen, a couple of years ago while helping to erect the pavillions for Cessna at the Sun & Fun Fly-in I had the unique priviledge of an unfettered tour of the B-17 "Aluminum Overcast". ( it is not germaine to go into how this came about). I noticed then, and have just remembered, quilted padding that was installed in the cockpit. At first I thought that this padding must have been for insulation. Later , I was told that this was installed to deflect, or absorb flak penetrations. I was also told that this padding was generally removed as it impeded access to emergency repairs. I am fortunate, in that I have a source (now) who can , (and will often) oblige me with patient answers, expert opinion, and salient fact. For your replies, please accept my thanks in advance. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 01:53:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:53:28 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: Spec, Dad grew up in southeast Va.; Franklin, Sedley, Ivor area, not many = kinfolk left there now, his oldest brother passed away last week, guess I = waited too late to take this trip; also have folks in Norfolk, and Newport = News that I'll visit As far as the museum in Savannah, is it like an all day excursion, a two = hour deal or what? Also is there a nice place to stay nearby? =20 Here's a question for you my friends: I just ordered a set of golf clubs; = anyone know if there's such a thing as B17 head covers? If they can make = tigers and sharks they should be able to make B17s don'tcha think? Thanks, Duke From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 02:16:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:16:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: <77.12eec1d3.28065bf1@aol.com> From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 02:19:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:19:33 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: <10.b27a7ec.28065ca5@aol.com> duke having not been there .just several hours. i am in richmond.va. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 02:34:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:34:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: <71.c6e6d04.28066020@aol.com> Dear Kevin, One of us is badly mixed up. It could well be me so here goes. I never remember a R1830 - 97 engine. The F & G models as I remember had R1820-97 Wright single row engines. The earlier birds had a R1820-65 Wright engine. The same bore and stroke but some changes to upgrade them with some later technology. Now the turbo super chargers. I am quite sure the superchargers were not intended to "recirculate the exhaust gases" nor did they. I can think of no benefit in doing so as we were not trying to keep from contaminating our air.and it would only reduce the power produced by the engines. Which we certainly did not want to do. The sole purpose of the supercharger was to raise the manifold pressure in the intake manifold to get more fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber. This was especially necessary for take off and climb power and for all power in the thin air at altitude. Without the super chargers we could not have gotten off the ground with a load and our ceiling would be around 12000 feet. At 2500 RPMs (Take off) There were 21 intake strokes per second in each cylinder. That means the intake valve was open about 1/20th of a second to get a load of fuel /air into the combustion stroke for the coming power stroke. That means the supercharger had to hurry a bit to get it in there before that intake valve popped shut. Keep the faith, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 02:44:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:44:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak curtains Message-ID: Lloyd, I don't know why the curtains were there. I would suppose to keep a bit of noise out and keep a little heat in. If that was the reason I suspect it was a total failure. I don't think it would have stopped much flak either. If it was in a Vega B17 I suspect it was there to hide the rivet job. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 02:48:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:48:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: James, I just read my mail to you. I made a typographical error. Those are R1820-97 engines. Not R1830-97 I hit the wrong key or fell asleep. or both. Sorry. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 03:24:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:24:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: <71.c6e6d04.28066020@aol.com> Message-ID: <000f01c0c2f7$cb80cb20$381b4e0c@o3n4f8> Jack, as you may suspect, I don't do a lot of smart things. This year I volunteered (which is animical to everything I learned from the Army) to work at the Lakeland Fly-in. But, I got a cush job in the air-conditioned Museum. In the museum is an 1820 Wright Cyclone engine on a stand (not sure what "-" model it is). This engine powered a lot of aircraft , including some helicopters. Because it is against the wall , it is difficult to see the back side of the engine. Due the recent conversation here about turbochargers et al, I tried pains takingly to discover where this elusive turbocharger was mounted. Eye-ball measurements indicate to me that this engine sans prop and hub was laterally not much more than 3 1/2 to 4 feet wide, and the front diameter not much greater. I looked for all the components on this engine that we have talked about in the past. I am fortunate in that I have met some retired airline pilots at the museum who I hope will be able to S'plain some of the workings of this engine. But this one question is driving me crazy. How in the heck can you get 9 cylinders (9?) to fire at the rate you just described on the same crank-case shaft? Well , obviously, you could, but I am in very humble awe of the people that designed the engines and aircraft, and truly in total admiration of the youth and intelligence of the men that , at such an early age could learn to manage all of it. Mr. Heller is correct, " it is a different world today". It is my priveledge to know you all. I might add, .... no, that is never a good idea... Thank you , sir. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. > . Without the super chargers we could not have > gotten off the ground with a load and our ceiling would be around 12000 feet. > At 2500 RPMs (Take off) There were 21 intake strokes per second in each > cylinder. That means the intake valve was open about 1/20th of a second to > get a load of fuel /air into the combustion stroke for the coming power > stroke. That means the supercharger had to hurry a bit to get it in there > before that intake valve popped shut. > Keep the faith, > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 03:31:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:31:56 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak curtains References: Message-ID: <000701c0c2f8$bfb286c0$381b4e0c@o3n4f8> Hey, Jack! I'll have you know , my Uncle , Dan Gerklutz was instrumental in the design modifications for the Vega model. Cheers. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] flak curtains > Lloyd, I don't know why the curtains were there. I would suppose to keep a > bit of noise out and keep a little heat in. If that was the reason I suspect > it was a total failure. I don't think it would have stopped much flak > either. If it was in a Vega B17 I suspect it was there to hide the rivet job. > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 03:43:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:43:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: <4f.a356304.2806704e@aol.com> Kevin, I made another mistake. At 2500 RPM's the intake valve would be open about 1/80th of a second to get enough fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber for the next power stroke. Not 1/20th. We need the supercharger more than I told you in my letter jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 04:03:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:03:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: <4f.a264b76.28067511@aol.com> Duke- If you are going to be in the vacinity of Galveston be sure to check out hte Lone Star Flight Museum. It is next to Moody Garden, the big pyramid you see from the causway as you enter the Island. We(the loyal volunteers) are very proud of our collection of flying warbirds, Includeing a B17G masquerading as Thunderbird. It is currently getting a new engine installed, but should be flying in time for our airshow on the weekend of April 28/29. Have a good trip Steve S From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 04:08:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:08:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: <9b.139f2d8d.28067625@aol.com> Lloyd The crank shaft and pistons in a radial engine are a bit hard to explain without drawing a picture but I'll try. There is a master rod that goes on a single throw on a single row radial. A double row radial like on a B 24 would have two throws 180 degrees apart. The master rod would go to a piston probably but not necessarily in the top of the engine. The master rod would have built into it around the area where it bolted on to the throw on the crankshaft an even number of bearings. Each of these bearings would be connected to a connecting rod that would go to a piston in each cylinder. One of the big problems with a radial engine is counterbalancing all that weight rotating around the single throw. That is why radials are limited to 2500 RPM when inline engine engines like a P51 can turn 3000. I bet you can get one of the mechanics there to draw you a picture or maybe they would have a cut-a-way engine The turbo supercharger does not attach to the engine. It is on the end of the exhaust pipe and could be some distance from the engine depending on the design of the bird it is on. there are gear driven super chargers that are on the back of the engine on the accessory section. Not on B17.s Good Night Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 04:13:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:13:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum Message-ID: You can spend all day in the Museum and come back tomorrow if you are interested in our war. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 05:02:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:02:23 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE; TURBO SUPER CHARGERS Message-ID: <000501c0c305$6298ae80$3dbb9ace@mjpmtman> HOPE 3RD TIME IS A CHARM. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rdtalk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:35 PM Subject: Fw: RE:- TURBO SUPER CHARGERS > Where this wound up - I don't know! I'll try again. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Paulk > To: <303rdtalk@303rdBGA.Com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 5:10 PM > Subject: RE:- TURBO SUPER CHARGERS > > > > FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH - FROM A DUMB ENLISTED MAN. > > > > NOTEBOOK Page 18 & 19 - Superchargers -Hydraulic =all regulators used on > B-2 > > super. can be used on type B-22 Super -- Providing setting on regulator is > > changed-----Electronic - a different Governor Assy is used on type B-22 > than > > on B-2. - Hydraulic Fluid for Turbo > > Super -34A/123 - Order thru British.//// Page 20-- Parts for Electronic > > Super.= Amplifier assy, turbo control = 5 ea.--motor Assy, waste gate, 4 > > ea.. -- Pressuretrol, Elect. Super, 4 ea.-- Governor assy, elect. Super > > (B-2), 4 ea.--Governor Assy, elect. Super (B-11 & B-22) 4 ea.--Box Assy, > > Nacelle junction, 4 ea.--Box Assy, Main, 1 ea.--Shaft Assy, Flex Drive > 10", > > 4 ea. > > > > CARRY ON ! > > > > Maurice J. Paulk > > > > > THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 05:04:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:04:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum References: Message-ID: <06bd01c0c305$9e444160$7c184e0c@o3n4f8> Will never mention it again, sir. A bit full of myself, as usual. As you say, Jack, it was your war, not mine. The very fact that I can have a mortgage payment to worry about, is related. My (oft told) apologies, sir. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum > You can spend all day in the Museum and come back tomorrow if you are > interested in our war. > Jack > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 05:36:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:36:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE; TURBO SUPER CHARGERS References: <000501c0c305$6298ae80$3dbb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <004501c0c30a$17e75620$7c184e0c@o3n4f8> If every body read the book, you and I would be saying, "Comrade", and would still be just as broke. LG. ( the dumbest draftee ever convinced he enlisted). Bravo, brother ! FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH - FROM A DUMB ENLISTED MAN. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 05:49:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:49:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: <9b.139f2d8d.28067625@aol.com> Message-ID: <004b01c0c30b$f0acffe0$7c184e0c@o3n4f8> Jack , another patient answer to what was probably another stupid question. Anent the Museum. Well, Jack, just the same patient , understanding , and tolerant type of folks my friends at the 303rd BGA are. No competition involved. Thank you for your answer to my question, Jack. Your explaination helps me understand the cut-aways. Cheers, pard. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. > Lloyd The crank shaft and pistons in a radial engine are a bit hard to > explain without drawing a picture but I'll try. There is a master rod that > goes on a single throw on a single row radial. A double row radial like on a > B 24 would have two throws 180 degrees apart. The master rod would go to a > piston probably but not necessarily in the top of the engine. The master rod > would have built into it around the area where it bolted on to the throw on > the crankshaft an even number of bearings. Each of these bearings would be > connected to a connecting rod that would go to a piston in each cylinder. One > of the big problems with a radial engine is counterbalancing all that weight > rotating around the single throw. That is why radials are limited to 2500 > RPM when inline engine engines like a P51 can turn 3000. > > I bet you can get one of the mechanics there to draw you a picture or > maybe they would have a cut-a-way engine The turbo supercharger does not > attach to the engine. It is on the end of the exhaust pipe and could be some > distance from the engine depending on the design of the bird it is on. there > are gear driven super chargers that are on the back of the engine on the > accessory section. Not on B17.s > Good Night > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 06:23:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:23:02 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Kevin, Lloyd, as well as any who might be curious of the master rod and the superchargers Jack Rencher has aptly described. If anyone should like I will be happy to send a jpg diagram of the ducting for the superchargers on the B17 along with a configuration of a master rod. Regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 07:31:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:31:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: Message-ID: <001601c0c31a$3253e9a0$8a904d0c@o3n4f8> You are a pal, Rich. Please send it along. Palidin@worldnet..att.net. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. > Kevin, Lloyd, as well as any who might be curious of the master rod and the > superchargers Jack Rencher has aptly described. If anyone should like I > will be happy to send a jpg diagram of the ducting for the superchargers on > the B17 along with a configuration of a master rod. > > Regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 07:39:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:39:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: Message-ID: <004101c0c31b$53139720$8a904d0c@o3n4f8> Rest assured , gentlemen; the ones that follow are nearly as young. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. > Kevin, Lloyd, as well as any who might be curious of the master rod and the > superchargers Jack Rencher has aptly described. If anyone should like I > will be happy to send a jpg diagram of the ducting for the superchargers on > the B17 along with a configuration of a master rod. > > Regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 08:19:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 03:19:26 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak curtains Message-ID: <60.d56aa3e.2806b0fe@aol.com> Hay Lloyd, The design was great. It was the rivets that were flattened on one end. Cheers Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 09:16:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:16:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: Message-ID: <3AD5644F.7044ED67@attglobal.net> Kevin ... Your friend is dreaming ... or ... not too far off the edge. You did not tell your CO you were not going to fly thus and so .... You flew! Cheers! Bill Heller (also a former CO .... AND .... a wingman) Kevin Pearson wrote: > According to my deceased friend, Lou LaHood (pilot, 91st BG, 322nd BS) the > superchargers on the F models were manually controlled and were > automatically controlled on the G model. He said flying formation was a > bear in the F model because of constant adjustments to them made it very > difficult to keep a tight formation. Then again the F model he was assigned > when he first entered the ETO was almost war weary at the time. At one > point he threatened his squadron CO that unless he got a new plane, he > wasn't going to fly "that piece of junk" as he called it. Was this Lou's > memory 50 years after the fact, or could a pilot tell his CO he wasn't going > to fly a particular bird? > > It is my understanding hot exhaust gases from the manifold were routed to > the exhaust mainifold waste gate and turned the impellor. The impellor > drove the turbine which not only recirculated exhaust gases, but also > increased the manifold pressure, alowing the Forts to fly at altitude. > > One more question. I've seen a number of Forts with the R1820-97 engine as > well as the R1830-97 engine. Can anyone tell me the difference between the > two besides a slight design change by Wright? > Kevin > > >From: Jprencher@aol.com > >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. > >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:44:51 EDT > > > >James, Yes I know. The B17 had turbo superchargers. One each R1830-97 > >engine. It was controlled by a waste gate in the exhaust pipe. The F and G > >models had a rheostat control in the center of the cockpit that controlled > >all 4 superchargers by rotating one knob that was about 2 and one half > >inches > >in diameter. The earlier models had 4 lever controls that had to be set > >individually. One for each engine. > > Best Wishes to you B29 Jocks > > Jack Rencher > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 09:17:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:17:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. References: <71.c6e6d04.28066020@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AD564A8.623A23B0@attglobal.net> Well said, Jack Rencher! Cheers! Bill Heller Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Dear Kevin, One of us is badly mixed up. It could well be me so here goes. I > never remember a R1830 - 97 engine. The F & G models as I remember had > R1820-97 Wright single row engines. The earlier birds had a R1820-65 Wright > engine. The same bore and stroke but some changes to upgrade them with some > later technology. Now the turbo super chargers. > I am quite sure the superchargers were not intended to "recirculate the > exhaust gases" nor did they. I can think of no benefit in doing so as we > were not trying to keep from contaminating our air.and it would only reduce > the power produced by the engines. Which we certainly did not want to do. > The sole purpose of the supercharger was to raise the manifold pressure in > the intake manifold to get more fuel air mixture into the combustion chamber. > This was especially necessary for take off and climb power and for all power > in the thin air at altitude. Without the super chargers we could not have > gotten off the ground with a load and our ceiling would be around 12000 feet. > At 2500 RPMs (Take off) There were 21 intake strokes per second in each > cylinder. That means the intake valve was open about 1/20th of a second to > get a load of fuel /air into the combustion stroke for the coming power > stroke. That means the supercharger had to hurry a bit to get it in there > before that intake valve popped shut. > Keep the faith, > Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 09:29:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:29:09 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE; TURBO SUPER CHARGERS References: <000501c0c305$6298ae80$3dbb9ace@mjpmtman> <004501c0c30a$17e75620$7c184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AD56755.C305C44F@attglobal.net> LJG ... Do not use 'dumb" in the same context with "enlisted man" .... There are dumb people and there are enlisted men .... but FELLOW, WITHOUT our enlised men, where would we be? I never allowed a man in my command to say the phrase, "I am JUST something-or-other!" And I TOLD them that they ARE something and ARE a part of a GREAT Service. NO ONE IN THE 303rd was a "just" .... Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > If every body read the book, you and I would be saying, "Comrade", and would > still be just as broke. LG. ( the dumbest draftee ever convinced he > enlisted). Bravo, brother ! > > FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH - FROM A DUMB ENLISTED MAN. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 13:58:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:58:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Yo, Kevin, mucho gratitude! In return may I offer a tape on "Sounds of a Vanishing Era" and "WWI Fighter Planes in Action" ...best I can do is tape them from 33-1/3s....can't burn a CD. My address is P.O.Box 740812, Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812. Let me know if you want the tapes and I'll grind them out. Meantime, a most happy Easter to you and yours! Cheers, Bob Hand (By the way, the former tape features steam and Diesel sounds with all the chains rattling, and the latter has sounds of Nieuport, Jenny. DH4, Standard and Sopwith) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 14:49:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:08:21 EDT Message-ID: <10991-3AD5B24D-1834@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Jack' you described te master rod and connecting rods correctly. you probably already know but i though i would mention it anyway' the R-4360 had four rows of cylindres with 4 master rods. tis engine had spiriling banks of cyls and i believe either 6 or 8 cyls per bank. also' there was 90 degrees between throws. quite powerful. i dont remember exactly the total horsepower. Cheers' Jim. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 14:53:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:53:39 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE; TURBO SUPER CHARGERS Message-ID: Amen Bill Heller you said it just right. Without enlisted MEN we would all be in very sad shape. I was one 19105942 Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 17:34:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:34:19 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all Message-ID: <001401c0c36e$6dbb8a80$b2194e0c@o3n4f8> I have asked Gary to disconnect me from the 303rd Talk forum. I have learned a great deal and met some outstanding people and I am very grateful. It has been a privilege to share your thoughts and recollections. I thank each and everyone of you. The Molesworth Tape enterprise is still my "Baby" (unless someone else would like to take over). I have all the addresses and e-mail ID's for everyone that has expressed an interest in seeing the tape. I will keep the list open in case there are others. I can be contacted by e-mail at: palidin@worldnet.att.net , or snail mailed at : Coyote Airlines, PO Box 5015, Lakeland, Fl. 33807. Cheers and Thumbs-up to all. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:17:08 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:17:08 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: You guys are just amazing!! I wish my generation took the pains you do to get it right! We'd all be better off! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:43:26 EDT > >Kevin, I made another mistake. At 2500 RPM's the intake valve would be >open >about 1/80th of a second to get enough fuel/air mixture into the combustion >chamber for the next power stroke. Not 1/20th. We need the supercharger >more >than I told you in my letter > jack > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:12:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:12:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Jack: Thanks for the information on the "R1830-97." Someone else in this forum has used that model number and I wondered if I had missed something. The only thing I know about superchargers is what I learned when I worked for Caterpillar Tractor, and, yes, there is a BIG difference between a giant deisel engine and an radial aircraft engine. And you are right. As I recall, the exhaust gases only turned the impellor and the gases were not recyled back through the engine. The intercoolers - were these used to cool and hence compress the fuel/air mixture before it was induced into the intake manifold? At Cat, we called this "after cooled." You have an excellent memory Jack if you can remember how many times the intake valve opened and closed during takeoff! Your knowledge is greatly appreciated! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:34:24 EDT > >Dear Kevin, One of us is badly mixed up. It could well be me so here goes. >I >never remember a R1830 - 97 engine. The F & G models as I remember had >R1820-97 Wright single row engines. The earlier birds had a R1820-65 >Wright >engine. The same bore and stroke but some changes to upgrade them with some >later technology. Now the turbo super chargers. > I am quite sure the superchargers were not intended to "recirculate >the >exhaust gases" nor did they. I can think of no benefit in doing so as we >were not trying to keep from contaminating our air.and it would only reduce >the power produced by the engines. Which we certainly did not want to do. >The sole purpose of the supercharger was to raise the manifold pressure in >the intake manifold to get more fuel air mixture into the combustion >chamber. >This was especially necessary for take off and climb power and for all >power >in the thin air at altitude. Without the super chargers we could not have >gotten off the ground with a load and our ceiling would be around 12000 >feet. > At 2500 RPMs (Take off) There were 21 intake strokes per second in each >cylinder. That means the intake valve was open about 1/20th of a second to >get a load of fuel /air into the combustion stroke for the coming power >stroke. That means the supercharger had to hurry a bit to get it in there >before that intake valve popped shut. > Keep the faith, > Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:22:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:22:33 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Lloyd and Jack: My father was a mechanic in the Marine Air Wing in 1946 at Cherry Point, NC, and he gave me a number of books on this very subject. One book is nothing but an explanation of how the radial engine works. (Geez, and I thought I was the only clown who stayed up late reading this stuff!) Lloyd, if you like to read this book, it would answer most of your questions. Send me your address again and this time I will put it in my permanent directory. (Sending you stuff is starting to become a habit! hahahah) I do want the book back being it was my Dad's and all, but you are welcome to check it out if you like. Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:08:21 EDT > >Lloyd The crank shaft and pistons in a radial engine are a bit hard to >explain without drawing a picture but I'll try. There is a master rod that >goes on a single throw on a single row radial. A double row radial like on >a >B 24 would have two throws 180 degrees apart. The master rod would go to a >piston probably but not necessarily in the top of the engine. The master >rod >would have built into it around the area where it bolted on to the throw on >the crankshaft an even number of bearings. Each of these bearings would be >connected to a connecting rod that would go to a piston in each cylinder. >One >of the big problems with a radial engine is counterbalancing all that >weight >rotating around the single throw. That is why radials are limited to 2500 >RPM when inline engine engines like a P51 can turn 3000. > > I bet you can get one of the mechanics there to draw you a picture or >maybe they would have a cut-a-way engine The turbo supercharger does not >attach to the engine. It is on the end of the exhaust pipe and could be >some >distance from the engine depending on the design of the bird it is on. >there >are gear driven super chargers that are on the back of the engine on the >accessory section. Not on B17.s >Good Night >Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:26:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:26:17 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Rich - thanks for the offer, but I have pictures of this already. I appreciate it! Kevin >From: ryoung@oro.net (Rich) >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:23:02 -0700 > >Kevin, Lloyd, as well as any who might be curious of the master rod and the >superchargers Jack Rencher has aptly described. If anyone should like I >will be happy to send a jpg diagram of the ducting for the superchargers on >the B17 along with a configuration of a master rod. > >Regards, > >ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:39:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:39:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Hi Bob: While I'm at it, I'll also have my son burn you a copy of that CD I mentioned a while back, Aero Sounds, I bought in Holland. Not sure about the copyright laws for that one, but I won't tell if you won't. I have one tape of the steam locomotive that runs from Durango to Silverton, Colorado, and it is really awesome. I live with two large parrots, and they hate that tape, so I don't get to listen to it, except in my car. (The birds love the aircraft engines though, must be something about flight! hahahaha!) You don't have to make a tape of the album, though, just tell me the album title and I'll look for it. And if it wasn't built from 1935 to 1945, I'm not too interested, but thanks for the offer on the Jenny's and Sopwith. I'll get these two CDs in the mail Tuesday. You'll love em both. I hope you have a loud stereo! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 15:43:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:43:30 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 Noise Message-ID: Hi Bob: While I'm at it, I'll also have my son burn you a copy of that CD I mentioned a while back, Aero Sounds, I bought in Holland a couple of years ago. Not sure about the copyright laws for that one, but I won't tell if you won't. I have one tape of the steam locomotive that runs from Durango to Silverton, Colorado, and it is really awesome. I live with two large parrots, and they hate that tape, so I don't get to listen to it, except in my car. (The birds love the aircraft engines though, must be something about flight! hahahaha!) You don't have to make a tape of the album, though, just tell me the album title and I'll look for it. And if it wasn't built from 1935 to 1945, I'm not too interested, but thanks for the offer on the Jenny's and Sopwith. I'll get these two CDs in the mail Tuesday. You'll love em both. I hope you have a loud stereo! Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 20:35:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:35:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: <63.147f79a0.28075d79@aol.com> Jim, Thanks for the B29 briefing. I don't remember the Horsepower on them either. I did know the other info except the 6 0r 8 cylinders in each bank. They had to have an odd number or they would have had one H--- of a time figuring out the firing order, Maybe that is why they didn't run so good some of the time. I never thought of that. Best Wishes Jim. I like you. Mostly I just like girls, but you are sharp. Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 20:39:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:39:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all Message-ID: <3d.a464429.28075e88@aol.com> Lloyd, I hate to have you leave us. I look forward to seeing you back. I would like to get on you list for the Molesworth Tape. Thank you and so long Jack Rencher P.O. Box 7927 Boise, ID 83707 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 21:13:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:13:49 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Kevin. According to the laws of Physics {Boyles Law) a gas expands when it's temperature is increased. If it is in a closed container where it cannot expand it's pressure will increase. So as not the have Mr. Boyles arrest us for breaking his law. we have to take evasive action. When we compress the air with the supercharger it heats up. Hence it becomes less dense. Hence there are less molecules of Air per cubic unit. We want as many molecules of air (oxygen really) in that combustion chamber as we can get. So we run the air through an intercooler after it goes through the supercharger but before it gets to the carburetor to cool it back down and make it more dense. ( More molecules per cubic unit in the combustion chamber) The air is about 19% Oxygen 80% nitrogen and 1%other gases not counting water vapor. This is probably wrong in(over) Los Angeles and some other settlements. When we burn the fuel in the engine the Hydrogen in the fuel mixes with the Oxygen in the air and Water runs out through the supercharger. When it condenses it is one of the 3 causes of vapor trails. The Carbon in the fuel mixes with the Oxygen in the air and makes Carbon Dioxide which the plants use to produce sugar, starches and cellulose. which gets buried in the ground for 1,000,023 years more or less and turns into coal, Oil and natural Gas which we could use to start over again except we won't be here so that is out. So M .I. Aren't you sorry you brought it up? Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 21:23:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:23:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: Kevin. Thanks for the offer of your Dad's book, but I never learned to read and my mind is gone so I put things down and can't remember were I put them, so I would lose your book and if I found it I couldn't remember who I was supposed to return it to. To whom I was supposed to return it would be better English. One should never use a preposition to end a sentence with. Thanks anyway, Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 21:31:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:31:40 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: I have no problem with your second addition next year but I would suggest considering about $25 for those who have already bought one. I put a pencil to the $15 and the point got rather dull. I guess I could have used a ball point pen? Jack From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 21:44:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. In-Reply-To: Jprencher@aol.com's message of Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:13:49 EDT Message-ID: <22687-3AD613B0-3509@storefull-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Jack' You were wrong about the ratio's there is 21%oxygen' 78% nitrogen' and 1% of inert gases. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 22:16:17 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:16:17 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all References: <3d.a464429.28075e88@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c0c395$d1b33520$6b874d0c@o3n4f8> Friend Jack, Sometimes I feel that I can write a pretty line or two. What I write is fiction. You fellows are not fiction; you are all something beyond any foolish story that I could ever dream up. I see your faces, and I hear your voices in every nook and cranny every day. I try like heck to remember what it was like to be 23 years old, but my memory fails me. Don't get me wrong, Mr. Rencher, but I love you, every man jack of you. It was time for me to go. I have added your name and address to the list for the Molesworth Tape, Jack. Thank you for everything you have done to help me understand. Thank you for your incredible patience and understanding. May the Angels guard your pillow. With abiding respect, your friend, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all > Lloyd, I hate to have you leave us. I look forward to seeing you back. I > would like to get on you list for the Molesworth Tape. Thank you and so long > Jack Rencher > P.O. Box 7927 > Boise, ID 83707 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 12 22:30:09 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:30:09 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. Message-ID: No, Jack, this has been a very interesting dialoge for me. In fact, one of the Luftwaffe pilots I know told me one version of his Daimler Benz engine In his 109 used water to boost the power. Never have figured that one out! And just so you know, I am very familiar with noncyclicphotophosforilation, the process by which plants turn E molecules from the sun into adeninetriphospate (ATP), the primary fuel used by plants! Ha! My high school biology class pays dividends! Kevin >From: Jprencher@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Superchargers. >Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:13:49 EDT > >Kevin. According to the laws of Physics {Boyles Law) a gas expands when >it's >temperature is increased. If it is in a closed container where it cannot >expand it's pressure will increase. So as not the have Mr. Boyles arrest us >for breaking his law. we have to take evasive action. When we compress the >air with the supercharger it heats up. Hence it becomes less dense. Hence >there are less molecules of Air per cubic unit. We want as many molecules >of >air (oxygen really) in that combustion chamber as we can get. So we run the >air through an intercooler after it goes through the supercharger but >before >it gets to the carburetor to cool it back down and make it more dense. ( >More >molecules per cubic unit in the combustion chamber) The air is about 19% >Oxygen 80% nitrogen and 1%other gases not counting water vapor. >This is probably wrong in(over) Los Angeles and some other settlements. >When >we burn the fuel in the engine the Hydrogen in the fuel mixes with the >Oxygen >in the air and Water runs out through the supercharger. When it condenses >it >is one of the 3 causes of vapor trails. The Carbon in the fuel mixes with >the >Oxygen in the air and makes Carbon Dioxide which the plants use to produce >sugar, starches and cellulose. which gets buried in the ground for >1,000,023 >years more or less and turns into coal, Oil and natural Gas which we could >use to start over again except we won't be here so that is out. So M .I. >Aren't you sorry you brought it up? >Jack Rencher > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 13 02:07:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:07:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:digest, Vol 1 #237/msg#2-rank Message-ID: <4b.a218ffb.2807ab63@aol.com> --part1_4b.a218ffb.2807ab63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Jones, There was a time in the beginning of my career that I was a Sergeant, I made cadet in February of 42 and was sent on a 30 day leave.....six months later I was called back (in August of that year)...congress had to pass a bill making all new cadets AUS not ORC...like Bill Heller said..we got a bonus of $500.00.... I was also busted back to privbate and sent to cadet training at San Antonio, Texas...thats why class 43-D had over 10,000 people in it...california law mandated that you be made a private...cheers Bill Bergeron --part1_4b.a218ffb.2807ab63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Jones,
      There was a time in the beginning of my career that I was a Sergeant,
I made cadet in February of 42 and was sent on a 30 day leave.....six months
later I was called back (in August of that year)...congress had to pass a
bill making all new cadets AUS not ORC...like Bill Heller said..we got a
bonus of $500.00.... I was also busted back to privbate and sent to cadet
training at San Antonio, Texas...thats why class 43-D had over 10,000 people
in it...california law mandated that you be made a private...cheers           
    Bill Bergeron --part1_4b.a218ffb.2807ab63_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 13 14:00:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:00:35 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all Message-ID: Would appreciate your adding my name to the Molesworth Tape....maybe it'll catch up to me by Labor Day, but whenever, I'm dying to set eyes on it. Many thanks for making it available. Cheers, Bob Hand P.O.Box 740812, Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 13 14:17:41 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:17:41 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand Message-ID: Bob: I have looked high and low for that Aero Sounds CD and can not find it. I must have loaned it to someone. But I do have the Round Sounds in hand and my son has agreed to burn you one. Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Cheers and Thumbs up to all >Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:00:35 EDT > >Would appreciate your adding my name to the Molesworth Tape....maybe it'll >catch up to me by Labor Day, but whenever, I'm dying to set eyes on it. >Many thanks for making it available. Cheers, Bob Hand P.O.Box 740812, >Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 13 20:38:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:38:45 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand Message-ID: <64.d00e518.2808afc5@aol.com> Much obliged, Kevin. I know full well what it's like to not find something you damn well know is hiding somewhere. Like my copy of "One Last Look"....NOBODY in this house is interested in it, but can I locate it? Naaah. Companion hard cover to "Round the Clock" and quite a nice book to have. Have a nice long happy interesting fulfilling weekend! And thanks again! Best and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 02:56:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:56:15 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] need a little help Message-ID: <3AD74BCF.18250.5934BC@localhost> My color printer died and I need a favor from someone. Can someone please print out a good color image of this graphic: http://www.303rdbga.com/mif9.gif Size needs to be about 1/4 page plus or minus. and send it to: Bob Silver 4510 S.W. 62nd Ave. Miami, FL 33155 I told Bob I would send it to him, but am unable now. Let me know.... thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 03:55:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:55:37 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] need a little help References: <3AD74BCF.18250.5934BC@localhost> Message-ID: <000e01c0c48e$63af3200$53194e0c@o3n4f8> Gary, Bob Silver is probably about to recieve more than one of the items you requested, but, courtesy of Mrs. Grant, Coyote Communications , Inc. (resident computer genius) our rendition is in the mail. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:56 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] need a little help > My color printer died and I need a favor from someone. Can > someone please print out a good color image of this graphic: > http://www.303rdbga.com/mif9.gif > Size needs to be about 1/4 page plus or minus. > > and send it to: > Bob Silver > 4510 S.W. 62nd Ave. > Miami, FL 33155 > > I told Bob I would send it to him, but am unable now. > Let me know.... thanks! > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 05:15:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:15:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] need a little help In-Reply-To: <000e01c0c48e$63af3200$53194e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AD76C55.11420.D84338@localhost> > Gary, Bob Silver is probably about to recieve more than one of the > items you requested, but, courtesy of Mrs. Grant, Coyote > Communications , Inc. (resident computer genius) our rendition is in > the mail. Lloyd. Thanks! I really appreciate. I just bought a new cartridge for my color printer and it still won't print. Don't know what is wrong. Thanks again, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 04:17:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:17:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] seeking info on crew members, missing Message-ID: 2nd lt. eugene halonen, co-pilot and milton syzmanski ,navigator on pilot lonski's crew. milto was assigned at langleyafb after war and changed last name to scott. also asttempting to locate joseph e, burke ,jr. an aviaton cadet room mate that lived in pittsburg,pa. thanks for help.spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 05:24:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:24:02 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand References: Message-ID: <004f01c0c49a$c3ca5a00$8a184e0c@o3n4f8> If you will trust me with your snail mail address, I will send you a copy of "Catch 22" by Joeseph Heller. Once you read it, you will get an idea of the influences that caused me to become such a whack-0. Re: ur offer. Never trust anything irreplacable to the postal service. Bill Owen is still waiting for his copy of the Molesworth tape, and I mailed his three days before Gary sent one to Bill Bergeron. I have several copies of "Catch 22". If one is lost , it can be replaced. Thank you for offering, tho, Kevin. Regards, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:17 AM > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 05:31:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:31:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] need a little help References: <3AD76C55.11420.D84338@localhost> Message-ID: <3AD7D283.E9DB7603@attglobal.net> GLM ... I am sure you must have, but try cleaning the heads of your printer ... Cheers! WCH Gary Moncur wrote: > > Gary, Bob Silver is probably about to recieve more than one of the > > items you requested, but, courtesy of Mrs. Grant, Coyote > > Communications , Inc. (resident computer genius) our rendition is in > > the mail. Lloyd. > > Thanks! I really appreciate. I just bought a new cartridge for my > color printer and it still won't print. Don't know what is wrong. > > Thanks again, > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 05:34:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:34:56 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand References: <004f01c0c49a$c3ca5a00$8a184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AD7D370.AB7CA739@attglobal.net> LJG ... Having published two books (long ago) and knowing the Author's name is an eye-catcher, I put my name HELLER on top on the jacket. Wow! Did it help! And I am NO relation to Joseph Heller. Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > If you will trust me with your snail mail address, I will send you a copy > of "Catch 22" by Joeseph Heller. Once you read it, you will get an idea of > the influences that caused me to become such a whack-0. Re: ur offer. > Never trust anything irreplacable to the postal service. Bill Owen is still > waiting for his copy of the Molesworth tape, and I mailed his three days > before Gary sent one to Bill Bergeron. I have several copies of "Catch 22". > If one is lost , it can be replaced. Thank you for offering, tho, Kevin. > Regards, Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:17 AM > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 13:57:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:57:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand Message-ID: I've got both the book and the video on "Catch 22" which I enjoy over and over. (whitewall tires on the General's B-25!....wow!). Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 14:09:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:09:49 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand References: <004f01c0c49a$c3ca5a00$8a184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001c01c0c4e4$30bc2c80$383f22d1@billowen> Hey Lloyd, today is only the 9th day since you mailed the tape. I haven't given up hope yet. Maybe we need to raise postal rates again. The Pony Express might need some fresh ponies...after all, it's a long ride from Florida to Texas. Best, Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] To: Bob Hand > If you will trust me with your snail mail address, I will send you a copy > of "Catch 22" by Joeseph Heller. Once you read it, you will get an idea of > the influences that caused me to become such a whack-0. Re: ur offer. > Never trust anything irreplacable to the postal service. Bill Owen is still > waiting for his copy of the Molesworth tape, and I mailed his three days > before Gary sent one to Bill Bergeron. I have several copies of "Catch 22". > If one is lost , it can be replaced. Thank you for offering, tho, Kevin. > Regards, Lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pearson > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:17 AM > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 14 16:55:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:55:24 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth tape update Message-ID: <001d01c0c4fb$525dfaa0$19184e0c@o3n4f8> The original tape I sent to Bill Owens has gone MIA. However, thanks to Gary and Don there are still three tapes currently making the rounds. There about 25 names on the list and the average time from mailing to reciept is about four days +.( That is assuming that the pony express rider I hired to deliver Mr. Owens copy is out of business). You all are spread all over the country so we are trying to keep the time enroute to a minimum by circulating each tape in a specific region. This isn't particularly fair to some of you who were early on the list and I apologize. (The chaplins office is down the hall on the right.) I hope you all have a safe and happy Easter holiday. (And , thanks for the kind words and encouragement, they really hit the target.) Thumbs-up. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 01:47:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:47:46 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOLESWORTH TAPE Message-ID: <000501c0c545$b1ff7ca0$46bb9ace@mjpmtman> FANTASTIC-----rec'd mine yesterday. I Tried to notify Tom Mays that between Easter and the tape copier [out of town] it will proably be Tues before I can get it in the mail. My E-mail to him was retlurned -- recepient unknown. CARRY ON ! Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 02:29:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:29:36 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] MOLESWORTH TAPE In-Reply-To: <000501c0c545$b1ff7ca0$46bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <3AD89710.21760.27DDE6B@localhost> > FANTASTIC-----rec'd mine yesterday. I Tried to notify Tom Mays that > between Easter and the tape copier [out of town] it will proably be > Tues before I can get it in the mail. My E-mail to him was retlurned > -- recepient unknown. > Just got a note from Tom..... his new email is: - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 02:40:37 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:40:37 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: --part1_f.12c1bfb6.280a5615_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are any of the control towers or hangers, or runways still visible Molesworth?. I always wondered if any of the air bases in England still have of the old air fields that one can still still see. Terry Lucas --part1_f.12c1bfb6.280a5615_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are any of the control towers or hangers, or runways still visible
Molesworth?. I always wondered if any of the air bases in England still have
of the old air fields that one can still still see.
Terry Lucas --part1_f.12c1bfb6.280a5615_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 03:30:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:30:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: <4b.a420e8a.280a61be@cs.com> --part1_4b.a420e8a.280a61be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was at RAF Molesworth this past summer all that I could find that dated from WWII were two large Hangars and some communication Buildings near the church at Clopton which is NNW of the base. The hard surface runways and taxiways have long since disappeared. Bassingbourn still has a tower and a runway which may be viewed. The British Army currently occupies Bassingbourn, but is quite willing to let Americans on base. The Bassingbourn tower is now a 91st BG Museum. Most WWII airfields have been returned to agricultural purposes. Brian McGuire may be able to provide more information on what is available. John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_4b.a420e8a.280a61be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      When I was at RAF Molesworth this past summer all that I could find
that dated from WWII were two large Hangars and some communication Buildings
near the church at Clopton which is NNW of the base.  The hard surface
runways and taxiways have long since disappeared.  Bassingbourn still has a
tower and a runway which may be viewed.  The British Army currently occupies
Bassingbourn, but is quite willing to let Americans on base.  The
Bassingbourn tower is now a 91st BG Museum.  Most WWII airfields have been
returned to agricultural purposes.
      Brian McGuire may be able to provide more information on what is
available.

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_4b.a420e8a.280a61be_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 04:34:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:34:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <4b.a420e8a.280a61be@cs.com> Message-ID: <002201c0c55d$04830660$ec8f4d0c@o3n4f8> And we see in this, perhaps, the final scene; an old man full of memories, striding the fence and boarding his goofey old bike, in his goofey civilian suit... and peddling away along a peaceful country lane. Maybe that is what it was all for; and about. From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > When I was at RAF Molesworth this past summer all that I could find > that dated from WWII were two large Hangars and some communication Buildings > near the church at Clopton which is NNW of the base > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 04:51:21 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:51:21 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields Message-ID: <11.12af3cb4.280a74b9@cs.com> --part1_11.12af3cb4.280a74b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my previous email I neglected to mention that there is a book which provides extensive photographic documentation of 8th Air Force airfields as they were during WWII and how they appear now. This book is Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_11.12af3cb4.280a74b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      In my previous email I neglected to mention that there is a book which
provides extensive photographic documentation of 8th Air Force airfields as
they were during WWII and how they appear now.  This book is Airfields of the
Eighth Then and Now.  

Regards,

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_11.12af3cb4.280a74b9_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 04:56:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:56:05 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <4b.a420e8a.280a61be@cs.com> Message-ID: <002801c0c55f$ffbb3dc0$a509f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0C525.529C2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evening, folks. A good link to explore the East Anglia fields and many other facets is a = site maintained by a fellow affectionado of the air war, Kim Chetwyn. = Here is his site : http://www.stable.demon.co.uk/ I'm sure some of you have seen this, but for those that haven't, it is = worth a look. I was at Bassingbourn in March of '99, and it is well worth the visit. = Check the link at : http://members.aol.com/an6530/museum.htm If you let Steve or Peter know you're coming, they'll meet you, get you = through the gate and security (British Army), and take you on a tour. = When I was there, Peter took me through the museum, around the base in = his car, and out to the runway and taxiways. He drove up and down them a = couple of times for me, to get a feel of things. Wonderful people, and = very accommodating to visitors. Have a nice Easter weekend, everyone. Gordy "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton=20 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706=20 gordy@saltspring.com "proud son of a tailgunner" __________________________________ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJENKINSR@cs.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth When I was at RAF Molesworth this past summer all that I could = find=20 that dated from WWII were two large Hangars and some communication = Buildings=20 near the church at Clopton which is NNW of the base. The hard surface = runways and taxiways have long since disappeared. Bassingbourn still = has a=20 tower and a runway which may be viewed. The British Army currently = occupies=20 Bassingbourn, but is quite willing to let Americans on base. The=20 Bassingbourn tower is now a 91st BG Museum. Most WWII airfields have = been=20 returned to agricultural purposes.=20 Brian McGuire may be able to provide more information on what is = available.=20 John A. Jenkins=20 6910 Old Redmond Road=20 Redmond, WA 98052 USA=20 Phone (425) 885-0595=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0C525.529C2300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evening, folks.
A good link to explore the East Anglia fields and = many other=20 facets is a site maintained by a fellow affectionado of the air war, Kim = Chetwyn. Here is his site :
http://www.stable.demon.co.uk/
I'm sure some of you have seen this, but for those = that=20 haven't, it is worth a look.
I was at Bassingbourn in March of '99, and it is = well worth=20 the visit. Check the link at :
http://members.aol.com/= an6530/museum.htm
If you let Steve or Peter know you're coming, = they'll meet=20 you, get you through the gate and security (British Army), and take you = on a=20 tour. When I was there, Peter took me through the museum, around the = base in his=20 car, and out to the runway and taxiways. He drove up and down them a = couple of=20 times for me, to get a feel of things. Wonderful people, and very = accommodating=20 to visitors.
Have a nice Easter weekend, everyone.
Gordy
 
"Our freedom is not free. Please
remember those = who fought=20 to keep it."
Gordon L. Alton
129 Mariko Place
Salt Spring = Island, BC,=20 Can V8K 1E1
250-537-6706 
gordy@saltspring.com
"proud son of a tailgunner"
__________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JJENKINSR@cs.com=20
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 = 7:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk]=20 Molesworth

     When I was at RAF = Molesworth=20 this past summer all that I could find
that dated from WWII were = two large=20 Hangars and some communication Buildings
near the church at = Clopton which=20 is NNW of the base.  The hard surface
runways and taxiways = have long=20 since disappeared.  Bassingbourn still has a
tower and a = runway which=20 may be viewed.  The British Army currently occupies =
Bassingbourn, but=20 is quite willing to let Americans on base.  The
Bassingbourn = tower is=20 now a 91st BG Museum.  Most WWII airfields have been
returned = to=20 agricultural purposes.
      Brian = McGuire=20 may be able to provide more information on what is
available.=20

John A.=20 Jenkins=20

6910 Old=20 Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA =

Phone=20 (425) 885-0595 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0C525.529C2300-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 05:19:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:19:27 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Books about WWII Airfields References: <11.12af3cb4.280a74b9@cs.com> Message-ID: <003801c0c563$42f28c80$a509f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0C528.96169540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, I found that book on a search of Roger Freeman books the other night. = One of the best search engines for books that I have found is : http://www.bookfinder.com/ Type in Freeman, Roger, and you'll get quite a few, and right at the top = of the list is "Air Fields, Then and Now". For instance, in Canadian funds : 1 Empire Books via Biblion 4to, Pp240, Illust, 400 b/w plates, 70 Maps.MINT(NEW). = Eighth US Army Air Force Airfields In The UK in WWII. C$55.73=20 2 Alibris After the Battle, 1978 1978 1st Edition Original Cloth = Excellent copy Light rubbing to wrapper only Fine. Keywords: Eight Air = Force USAF Aerial Warfare Airfields C$78.10=20 3 Maris Books via Advanced Book Exchange, BookAvenue.com Publisher: London, = England: Battle of Britain Prints International Ltd. 1978; Hard Cover. = Very Good/No Jacket. ISBN: oversized.=20 [Available through multiple listing services; click any one.] = C$85.91 (ABE) (BkAve)=20 4 WORLD WAR II BOOKS via Advanced Book Exchange 1992. After the Battle, 6th edn, 240pp, = ills, plates, maps, d/w, fine, quarto. An illustrated study of all the = U.K. bases built in 1942 specifically for the U.S 8th Air Force the = largest fighter and bomber strike force of WWII. C$99.97=20 5 Alibris London Battle of Britain Prints Int 1978 revised VG/VG, = top corner of FEP clipped Keywords: military history C$115.59=20 6 TOMES OF GLORY BOOKSHOP via Advanced Book Exchange AFTER BATTLE, 1978, AS NEW BOOK AND = JACKET, WWII C$124.96=20 7 Alibris London After the Battle Magazine (1978) HC Near Fine in = slightly rubbed yellowed DJ Dents along bottom edge of boards. Keywords: = Aviation C$240.55=20 I also notice we are not too far from each other, John. I'm just north = of the American border, in the Gulf Islands, known as the San Juans to = you folks. Next time I come south, we'll have to get together. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706 gordy@saltspring.com ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0C528.96169540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,
I found that book on a search of Roger Freeman books = the other=20 night. One of the best search engines for books that I have found is=20 :
http://www.bookfinder.com/=
Type in Freeman, Roger, and you'll get quite a few, = and right=20 at the top of the list is "Air Fields, Then and Now".
For instance, in Canadian funds :
 
1 Empire Books
via Biblion		 4to, = Pp240,=20 Illust, 400 b/w plates, 70 Maps.MINT(NEW). Eighth US Army Air = Force=20 Airfields In The UK in WWII. C$55.73
2 Alibris After the Battle, 1978 1978 1st Edition Original Cloth Excellent copy = Light rubbing=20 to wrapper only Fine. Keywords: Eight Air Force USAF Aerial = Warfare=20 Airfields C$78.10=
3 Maris Books
via Advanced Book Exchange,=20 BookAvenue.com		 Publisher: London, England: Battle of Britain Prints=20 International Ltd. 1978; Hard Cover. Very Good/No Jacket. ISBN: = oversized.=20
[Available through multiple listing = services;=20 click any one.]		 C$85.91
(ABE)
(BkAve)
4 WORLD WAR II BOOKS
via Advanced Book = Exchange		 1992. After the Battle, 6th edn,=20 240pp, ills, plates, maps, d/w, = fine, quarto. An = illustrated study=20 of all the U.K. bases built in 1942 specifically for the U.S 8th = Air Force=20 the largest fighter and bomber strike force of WWII. C$99.97
5 Alibris London Battle of Britain Prints Int 1978 revised VG/VG, = top=20 corner of FEP=20 clipped Keywords: military history C$115.59
6 TOMES OF GLORY BOOKSHOP
via Advanced Book=20 Exchange		 AFTER BATTLE, 1978, AS NEW BOOK AND JACKET, = WWII C$124.96
7 Alibris London After the Battle Magazine (1978) HC Near Fine in slightly rubbed=20 yellowed DJ Dents along bottom = edge of boards.=20 Keywords: Aviation C$240.55
 
I also notice we are not too far from each other, = John. I'm=20 just north of the American border, in the Gulf Islands, known as the San = Juans=20 to you folks. Next time I come south, we'll have to get = together.
Gordy.
 
"Our freedom is not free. Please
remember those = who fought=20 to keep it."
Gordon L. Alton
129 Mariko Place
Salt Spring = Island, BC,=20 Can V8K 1E1
250-537-6706
gordy@saltspring.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0C528.96169540-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 05:46:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:46:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields References: <11.12af3cb4.280a74b9@cs.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0c567$09482400$c18e4d0c@o3n4f8> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields > In my previous email I neglected to mention that there is a book which > provides extensive photographic documentation of 8th Air Force airfields as > they were during WWII and how they appear now. This book is Airfields of the > Eighth Then and Now. > > Regards, > > John A. Jenkins > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 06:07:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:07:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: <2b.13f7be3a.280a8680@aol.com> Terry, There is one big hanger left at Molesworth. All the rest is completely changed except the greatness of the people still stationed and serving there. They are of course different people with a different mission but the very soil at Molesworth must inspire excellence. The runways,housing,boundries and mission are all completely different. If you are lucky you can still find some old concrete floors and I think a farmer is using two or three of the old huts for his sheep? It is now a combined intelligence gathering facility for the US and British armed forces. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 07:40:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:40:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields Message-ID: <94.12b3a75d.280a9c57@aol.com> reckon it is in normal libraries? spec. by whom and printer? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 08:24:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:24:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Take off Message-ID: <000e01c0c57d$29f6d500$3f904d0c@o3n4f8> >From the point of starting all engines at your hard stand: What was the interaction between Pilot and Co-Pilot? Where did you perform the "run-up" ? (ie. at the point of start-up, on the taxi way, or, at the hold short point) Between Pilot and Co-Pilot , who was responsible for the Pre-flight check? Who did the math for density altitude, et al? What length was the average runway, and at what point was V1 and V2 achieved? What were the crew responsibilites after take-off was achieved? Tell me if I am wrong, ok? There are four factors involved in achieving flight in a heavier than air craft. Thrust (which creates lift and overcomes drag), Lift which is the force created by differential air-flow over and below the airfoil, Drag ( which is a sine of resistance to thrust), and weight which is heavy ( as in fuel , cargo, etc. etc. etc.). What varients affected a B17, according to model, in consideration of the factors mentioned? Free pie and ice cream for your answers. ( He's lying ! There isn't enough pie and ice cream in the World to pay off this deal) . Cheers and thumbs-up. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 11:52:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 06:52:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 Message-ID: <67.12a72cb9.280ad77f@aol.com> --part1_67.12a72cb9.280ad77f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_67.12a72cb9.280ad77f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 --part1_67.12a72cb9.280ad77f_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 11:54:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 06:54:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Mighty Eighth Air Force Public Message Board Message-ID: --part1_f7.91dda38.280ad7ea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Mighty Eighth Air Force Public Message Board --part1_f7.91dda38.280ad7ea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Mighty Eighth Air Force Public Message Board --part1_f7.91dda38.280ad7ea_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 15:20:23 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:20:23 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Take off Message-ID: <36.146b6b9d.280b0827@aol.com> Lloyd, My Boy, If you get 100 replies to this one you are going to get 100 different answers. Here is mine. The pilot is responsible for everything. He can and does delegate jobs and responsibilities to others but it is his responsibility to see that they are done. It is very different on different crews. I know of some crews were the copilot never landed or took off once in his thirty-five missions. I know of crews where they took terns landing and taking off. I know of one crew where the copilot made all the take off and landings when on instruments or in a stiff squirrel-ie cross wind. Most of the crews traded off flying in formation every 30 minutes of so. A lot of crews probably flew the bomb run with the one closest to the lead flying. One of the pilots read the check list and the other said check. Either one could do the reading and checking. We probably did our run up in the hard stand most of the time. If we were not there long enough to get the temperatures up we would do it later but not while taxing. I would estimate the average runway was about 6500 feet. BUT there was one on the Azores that was over 3 miles one at Pistol Creek that is about 600 feet. One would have to write a book to answer the questions in your last paragraph and it would be a bit thicker than Gone With The Wind. and no matter who wrote it every one else would disagree with it. Maybe Bill Heller will answer it and I won't disagree with him. Sorry I have to turn down the pie and ice cream. I have a weight problem. Cheers and thumbs horizontal if you are hitch hiking Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 16:15:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:15:53 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields Message-ID: <54.12ec66c8.280b1529@cs.com> --part1_54.12ec66c8.280b1529_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec, My version of Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now was published by Battle of Britain Prints International, Ltd, London and printed by Biddles, Ltd, Surrey. Obviously, a UK endeavor. The text is by Roger A. Freeman. It is now in its seventh printing. This book may not be readily available at your local public library, but could certainly be obtained from firms specializing in WWII and/or aircraft publications. Regards, John A. Jenkins 6910 Old Redmond Road Redmond, WA 98052 USA Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_54.12ec66c8.280b1529_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spec,
      My version of Airfields of the Eighth Then and Now was published by
Battle of Britain Prints International, Ltd, London and printed by Biddles,
Ltd, Surrey.  Obviously, a UK endeavor.  The text is by Roger A. Freeman.  It
is now in its seventh printing.  This book may not be readily available at
your local public library, but could certainly be obtained from firms
specializing in WWII and/or aircraft publications.

Regards,  

John A. Jenkins

6910 Old Redmond Road
Redmond, WA   98052   USA

Phone (425) 885-0595 --part1_54.12ec66c8.280b1529_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 16:16:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:16:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Check out Unusual 303rd Experiences - 1 Message-ID: --part1_a6.129684ef.280b153c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All: That a great web site. Brooklyn Bill --part1_a6.129684ef.280b153c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All:
   That a great web site.
                    Brooklyn Bill --part1_a6.129684ef.280b153c_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 20:27:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:27:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Take off References: <36.146b6b9d.280b0827@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901c0c5e2$26189580$158f4d0c@o3n4f8> That is a pretty "Windy" question, isn't it, Jack. Thanks for the reply. I think Jack has explained it pretty well. No need to bother with this one, fellers. Thanks. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Take off > Lloyd, My Boy, If you get 100 replies to this one you are going to get 100 > different answers. Here is mine. The pilot is responsible for everything. He > can and does delegate jobs and responsibilities to others but it is his > responsibility to see that they are done. It is very different on different > crews. I know of some crews were the copilot never landed or took off once > in his thirty-five missions. I know of crews where they took terns landing > and taking off. I know of one crew where the copilot made all the take off > and landings when on instruments or in a stiff squirrel-ie cross wind. Most > of the crews traded off flying in formation every 30 minutes of so. A lot of > crews probably flew the bomb run with the one closest to the lead flying. One > of the pilots read the check list and the other said check. Either one could > do the reading and checking. We probably did our run up in the hard stand > most of the time. If we were not there long enough to get the temperatures > up we would do it later but not while taxing. I would estimate the average > runway was about 6500 feet. BUT there was one on the Azores that was over 3 > miles one at Pistol Creek that is about 600 feet. > > One would have to write a book to answer the questions in your last > paragraph and it would be a bit thicker than Gone With The Wind. and no > matter who wrote it every one else would disagree with it. Maybe Bill Heller > will answer it and I won't disagree with him. Sorry I have to turn down the > pie and ice cream. I have a weight problem. > Cheers and thumbs horizontal if you are hitch hiking > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 15 20:34:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:34:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <4b.a420e8a.280a61be@cs.com> <002201c0c55d$04830660$ec8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3AD9F7D9.CEE1C8DE@attglobal.net> LJG ... It was all about WINNING. Lay off the 'goofey' .... Cheers! WCH Lloyd J Grant wrote: > And we see in this, perhaps, the final scene; an old man full of memories, > striding the fence and boarding his goofey old bike, in his goofey civilian > suit... and peddling away along a peaceful country lane. Maybe that is what > it was all for; and about. > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > > > When I was at RAF Molesworth this past summer all that I could find > > that dated from WWII were two large Hangars and some communication > Buildings > > near the church at Clopton which is NNW of the base > > John A. Jenkins > > > > 6910 Old Redmond Road > > Redmond, WA 98052 USA > > > > Phone (425) 885-0595 > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 16 08:50:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:50:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Take off References: <36.146b6b9d.280b0827@aol.com> <002901c0c5e2$26189580$158f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3ADAA448.9B051773@attglobal.net> LJG ... The purpose of a copilot on an aircraft is to (a) be second in command and (b) to land the aircraft and/or take over in the event of the incapacitation of the Captain (on airlines) or the Aircraft Commander in military aircraft). Cheers! WCH (former airline Captain for 35 years) Lloyd J Grant wrote: > That is a pretty "Windy" question, isn't it, Jack. Thanks for the reply. I > think Jack has explained it pretty well. No need to bother with this one, > fellers. Thanks. LG. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Take off > > > Lloyd, My Boy, If you get 100 replies to this one you are going to get 100 > > different answers. Here is mine. The pilot is responsible for everything. > He > > can and does delegate jobs and responsibilities to others but it is his > > responsibility to see that they are done. It is very different on > different > > crews. I know of some crews were the copilot never landed or took off > once > > in his thirty-five missions. I know of crews where they took terns landing > > and taking off. I know of one crew where the copilot made all the take off > > and landings when on instruments or in a stiff squirrel-ie cross wind. > Most > > of the crews traded off flying in formation every 30 minutes of so. A lot > of > > crews probably flew the bomb run with the one closest to the lead flying. > One > > of the pilots read the check list and the other said check. Either one > could > > do the reading and checking. We probably did our run up in the hard stand > > most of the time. If we were not there long enough to get the > temperatures > > up we would do it later but not while taxing. I would estimate the average > > runway was about 6500 feet. BUT there was one on the Azores that was over > 3 > > miles one at Pistol Creek that is about 600 feet. > > > > One would have to write a book to answer the questions in your last > > paragraph and it would be a bit thicker than Gone With The Wind. and no > > matter who wrote it every one else would disagree with it. Maybe Bill > Heller > > will answer it and I won't disagree with him. Sorry I have to turn down > the > > pie and ice cream. I have a weight problem. > > Cheers and thumbs horizontal if you are hitch hiking > > Jack Rencher > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 16 21:44:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:44:11 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Message-ID: <000901c0c6b5$ff0a01c0$153f22d1@billowen> Molesworth Video (Planes Identified in Video by Bill Owen) PLANE Sqd. Assigned Fate Bad Check(24587) 427 10-1-42 MIA 1-11-44 Beats Me(24567) 360 9-18-42 MIA 3-18-43 Delta Rebel No.2 (found no record of this one) Garbage(24563) 360 9-17-42 CL 11-11-42 Hell Cat(24580) 358 10-24-42 MIA 1-23-43 Hunga Dunga(24558) 358 9-16-42 MIA 3-18-43 Idaho Potato Peeler(24565) 359 9-18-42 MIA 5-5-43 Jerry Jinx(24607) 427 9-24-42 MIA 1-23-43 Knock-Out Dropper(24605) 359 9-22-42 survived-scrapped (was first 8th Air Force B-17 to make 50 and 75 missions) Lady Fairweather(24568) 359 9-18-42 MIA 11-23-42 Leapin Liz(24526) 358 9-19-42 MIA 1-3-43 One O'Clock Jump(24582) 358 9-13-42 MIA 12-12-42 Sky Wulf(24562) 358 9-16-42 MIA 1-11-44 The Devil Himself(24612) 427 9-26-42 To AFSC 5-20-43 The Duchess(24561) 359 9-17-42 survived-scrapped The 8 Ball(24581) 359 10-21-42 BL 12-20-42 The Green Hornet(24603) 359 9-21-42 MIA 1-23-43 Thumper(24579) 360 10-24-42 BL 1-23-43 Yahoodi (303 records show this to be the same plane as The Green Hornet, but each name is on a plane in this video). Zombie(24566) 359 9-18-42 MIA 12-20-42 MIA- Missing In Action BL- Made Belly Landing (Wheels Up) CL- Crash Landed The video was apparently made prior to 11-23-42, because Lady Fairweather was MIA on that date. A younger set of eyes can probably see some numbers that I could not make out...Bill From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 16 22:05:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:05:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth & Other WWII Airfields Message-ID: <105.1eebf14.280cb8ab@aol.com> gracious thanks. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 16 23:34:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Robert Rettinhouse) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:34:22 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Put me back on the mailing list Message-ID: <002101c0c6c5$62c4de60$2dac1818@we.mediaone.net> I am back from Easter Vacation.Please put me back on the list. Bob Rettinhouse From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 00:11:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:11:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires Message-ID: <001b01c0c6ca$95514a80$80194e0c@o3n4f8> Tucked about 1/2 way into the outboard engine nacelles, the tires on the B-17 appear to be extraordinarily vulnerable especially to flak bursts. How often did the puncture of a tire result in the loss, or serious damage, to an otherwise healthy airplane? Thanks for your responses. (from the log, #1) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 00:42:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:42:40 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires References: <001b01c0c6ca$95514a80$80194e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000501c0c6ce$f2edb080$80194e0c@o3n4f8> Excuse me, "inboard engine nacelles" (sigh). ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:11 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires > Tucked about 1/2 way into the outboard engine nacelles, the tires on the > B-17 appear to be extraordinarily vulnerable especially to flak bursts. How > often did the puncture of a tire result in the loss, or serious damage, to > an otherwise healthy airplane? > Thanks for your responses. > (from the log, #1) > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 01:19:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:19:34 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires References: <001b01c0c6ca$95514a80$80194e0c@o3n4f8> <000501c0c6ce$f2edb080$80194e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001301c0c6d4$15453f40$69f833cf@richards> LLoyd: We landed after a mission with both tires flat and also 1200 plus flack holes in our plane . The landing was successful but a tow away for the ground crews. We had no personnel hit but on our next mission we had one hole and our Radio operator got shot in the foot which grounded him for his last 5 missions. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tires > Excuse me, "inboard engine nacelles" (sigh). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lloyd J Grant > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:11 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires > > > > Tucked about 1/2 way into the outboard engine nacelles, the tires on the > > B-17 appear to be extraordinarily vulnerable especially to flak bursts. > How > > often did the puncture of a tire result in the loss, or serious damage, to > > an otherwise healthy airplane? > > Thanks for your responses. > > (from the log, #1) > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 02:14:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:14:40 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires References: <001b01c0c6ca$95514a80$80194e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <3ADB98FF.5B0CEB09@attglobal.net> LJG ... Now and then. Cheers! Bill Heller Lloyd J Grant wrote: > Tucked about 1/2 way into the outboard engine nacelles, the tires on the > B-17 appear to be extraordinarily vulnerable especially to flak bursts. How > often did the puncture of a tire result in the loss, or serious damage, to > an otherwise healthy airplane? > Thanks for your responses. > (from the log, #1) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 03:54:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:54:29 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires Message-ID: Lloyd, Once we landed with 312 holes in the aircraft. One went through the right tire. We shut off our 3 remaining engines on a short final as we had fuel leaks and didn't want any sparks and landed dead stick. We didn't know the tire had a hole in it. It looked OK. It did turn us off the runway into the grass, but caused no problem. If you knew you had a flat tire most pilots could land on one wheel and hold the flat off until you got down to about 55 or 60 mph or so I think. Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 05:05:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:05:51 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires References: Message-ID: <001001c0c6f3$b24e4380$63914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you, Jack. I took a chance asking this question, hoping that it was one of some relevance to everyones' undertanding. Your answer was relevant and helpful to my understanding. Regards, sir, Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tires > Lloyd, Once we landed with 312 holes in the aircraft. One went through the > right tire. We shut off our 3 remaining engines on a short final as we had > fuel leaks and didn't want any sparks and landed dead stick. We didn't know > the tire had a hole in it. It looked OK. It did turn us off the runway into > the grass, but caused no problem. If you knew you had a flat tire most pilots > could land on one wheel and hold the flat off until you got down to about 55 > or 60 mph or so I think. > Jack Rencher > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 07:24:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:24:45 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: Hello all - On the subject of flak damage to tires. Recently a friend showed me a piece of flak which was "collected" on a mission and saved by his father (100BG). This piece is approx. 2" long, 1/2" thick and appears to be made up of a wound or layered type of iron material so as to, I will guess, easily break up and scatter. It is quite jagged and heavy and I can only imagine the severe damage it would cause anything it contacts, including tires. Were all flak shells generally of this design, or were any other types encountered during your missions? ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 08:57:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:57:35 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak References: Message-ID: <000c01c0c714$11e57e60$8cb34d0c@o3n4f8> Rich, thanks for throwing your chips into the ante. A friend of mine named Bob Jones once showed me a fragment of "flak". It looked like a piece of shattered iron pipe. It wedged into his flight boot and he didnt notice it until he was walking away from debriefing. The piece he showed me was about 1/4 " and he thought it was a pebble. It was in fact a very evil looking jagged hunk of iron. Bob just shrugged it off. He was a bombadier on a B-17. Bob died in 1997. His kids probably threw that chunk of flak and alot of other memories into the dumpster when they cleaned out his apartment. Bob and I were friends. I never met his kids. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:24 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak > Hello all - On the subject of flak damage to tires. Recently a friend > showed me a piece of flak which was "collected" on a mission and saved by > his father (100BG). This piece is approx. 2" long, 1/2" thick and appears > to be made up of a wound or layered type of iron material so as to, I will > guess, easily break up and scatter. It is quite jagged and heavy and I can > only imagine the severe damage it would cause anything it contacts, > including tires. Were all flak shells generally of this design, or were any > other types encountered during your missions? > > > > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 12:57:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:57:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hello all - On the subject of flak damage to tires. Recently a friend > showed me a piece of flak which was "collected" on a mission and saved by > his father (100BG). This piece is approx. 2" long, 1/2" thick and appears > to be made up of a wound or layered type of iron material so as to, I will > guess, easily break up and scatter. It is quite jagged and heavy and I can > only imagine the severe damage it would cause anything it contacts, > including tires. Were all flak shells generally of this design, or were any > other types encountered during your missions? The piece of flak that hit my father in the arm (apparently it didn't cause any serious injury other than leaving his arm numb so I guess the energy had been dissipated before it got to him) was smaller, and was made of a fairly low density metal rather than heavy iron, although it is magnetic, so it contains iron. I have a picture of it at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/flakwej.jpg The thing seems to have ridges that look like they might be the end of a thread or something. Anyway this piece of flak was also made of metal that was obviously very brittle, and broke up into rough chunks. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 15:00:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:00:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: My Nav., Harry Subkowsky, was hit in the face and lost an eye over Leipzig. Lying bandaged on the floor for the long trip back home, he beckoned to me and asked me to "find the piece that hit me". I finally did locate it and pushed it into his glove. He recovered and on a visit back to the barracks cussed out the nurse who picked up the flak fragment and tossed it out. I still have the piece that knocked out the chin turret sight on my last raid. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 17:54:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:54:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tires aint pretty but... Message-ID: <007501c0c75f$1b6e2e00$e8184e0c@o3n4f8> Thanks for the responses to my question about tires. Mr. Heller pretty well summed it up. They were just tires. Not self sealing, not armor plated , nor anything specially designed for combat conditions. Just tires. Not very good looking when they are flat, but absolutely gorgeous when they are not. Cheers. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 19:30:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:30:06 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: <17.1493f4a9.280de5ae@aol.com> i have a piece same size that came to rest in my back parachute's first aid mit and folded into the aluminum tube used with tournique twisting. had numb rectum for months and nose turret imprint on me and flight suit. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 19:40:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:40:47 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: bob's was not the only air corps vet whose kid's threw creditable history memorabilia into dumpsters. that is why it is up to us to instill in the minds of today's population the history of how they can have their freedoms today, as results of death ,blood and torn minds , breaks,scarred bodies and agony of years and memories. that is also why museums.websites and our collective voices are of utmost importance for the foundation of reasons we have our liberties and freedom. i am proud to be on this effort and urge others to get on board actively promoting in our communities and over internet connections. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 20:24:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:24:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak References: <17.1493f4a9.280de5ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ADC9862.F6853295@attglobal.net> Spec ... Seems to be a lot of chat about Flak lately. I guess all of us had some experiences with it during our tour(s). Once, when watching the Flak burst under my plane and the little "peeling" holes on top of my wing, realizing the Flak had gone through the self sealer tanks and come out the top ... I got an idea. FROM THEN ON I SAT ON MY FLAK SUIT! And wouldn't you know it, on the second such mission sitting on the Flak suit, I later dug a nice piece out of the seat of my pants and it was SO spent, coming through everything, it did not draw blood nor cause any problem. I kept it and during some of the years my wife wore a charm bracelet, she wore that, BUT, it became too heavy for a charm bracelet and it now reposes in one of my dresser drawers. I was once told that Flak bursts were up and down and that to be right next to a bursting shell was not as bad as being above or below it. I never bothered to check that out, Flak was bad enough just as it was. There were times it appeared as though you could walk on it. I am sure we all experienced that. But, Flak (Flugabwehrkonnonen) was not a nice sight on a mission. Especially barrage Flak. Cheers! Bill Heller IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > i have a piece same size that came to rest in my back parachute's first aid > mit and folded into the aluminum tube used with tournique twisting. had numb > rectum for months and nose turret imprint on me and flight suit. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 20:26:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:26:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak References: Message-ID: <3ADC98C9.BE196BBC@attglobal.net> Spec ... The Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum in Savannah is doing just as you mention. Support it, for it is our true legacy and WILL remain. Cheers! Bill Heller IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > bob's was not the only air corps vet whose kid's threw creditable history > memorabilia into dumpsters. that is why it is up to us to instill in the > minds of today's population the history of how they can have their freedoms > today, as results of death ,blood and torn minds , breaks,scarred bodies and > agony of years and memories. that is also why museums.websites and our > collective voices are of utmost importance for the foundation of reasons we > have our liberties and freedom. i am proud to be on this effort and urge > others to get on board actively promoting in our communities and over > internet connections. ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 20:43:10 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:43:10 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: thanks bill. would be great if we heard from all members and families and friends of 303rdbga screaming count me in on the team one from now on. spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 17 20:47:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:47:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: yup!! for you that were there in toughest part of war. i saw boxes of flack and the red ball explosion,the black pwder burns ans was a relief to see gray puffs way of my plane. spec the china plane matter reflected to me my b17 nose being shot of by that flackj i mentioned and that cold frigid air at over 30000ft. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 03:53:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Fory Barton) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:53:43 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: <000e01c0c7b2$c8e48720$569a46c6@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0C788.DEE1E600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two chunks of flak that came into the radio room. One came up = between my feet and spent itself on bottom-side of radio desk Second time it came in from left side and tore through cables which put = Command Radio and intercome to waist & tail positions out of commision. = This one hit bucket seat I was sitting in before dropping to floor. Fory Barton on Kuykendalls crew ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0C788.DEE1E600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have two chunks of flak that came = into the=20 radio room.  One came up between my feet and spent itself on = bottom-side of=20 radio desk
Second time it came in from left side = and tore=20 through cables which put Command Radio and intercome to waist & tail = positions out of commision.  This one hit bucket seat I was sitting = in=20 before dropping to floor.
 
Fory Barton on Kuykendalls=20 crew
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0C788.DEE1E600-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 05:29:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:29:04 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak References: <000e01c0c7b2$c8e48720$569a46c6@computer> Message-ID: <001e01c0c7c0$1a0a3a20$bb09f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0C785.6D35E400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Nice to hear the stories on the flak, and the close calls. I held a = piece of flak in my hand last year, that belonged to a photographer = friend from the 91st BG. He dug a few of them out of cameras that came = back from missions heavily damaged.=20 It really seemed to hold a bit of mysticism about it. The only thing I = could relate it to was holding a moon rock or a piece of kryton. I know = that it sounds a bit corny to some of you, but for us sons of vets, = that's as close as we'll get to having a piece of those days in the palm = of our hands. I'm especially glad that you are all hear to tell the tale. It takes = courage to survive those days of combat, and sometimes even more to tell = them to my generation. Thanks, felllas. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706 gordy@saltspring.com "Tailgunnerson" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fory Barton=20 To: 303rd - BGA=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak I have two chunks of flak that came into the radio room. One came up = between my feet and spent itself on bottom-side of radio desk Second time it came in from left side and tore through cables which = put Command Radio and intercome to waist & tail positions out of = commision. This one hit bucket seat I was sitting in before dropping to = floor. Fory Barton on Kuykendalls crew ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0C785.6D35E400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello All,
Nice to hear the stories on the flak, and the close = calls. I=20 held a piece of flak in my hand last year, that belonged to a = photographer=20 friend from the 91st BG. He dug a few of them out of cameras that came = back from=20 missions heavily damaged.
It really seemed to hold a bit of mysticism about = it. The only=20 thing I could relate it to was holding a moon rock or a piece of kryton. = I know=20 that it sounds a bit corny to some of you, but for us sons of vets, = that's as=20 close as we'll get to having a piece of those days in the palm of our=20 hands.
I'm especially glad that you are all hear to tell = the tale. It=20 takes courage to survive those days of combat, and sometimes even more = to tell=20 them to my generation.
Thanks, felllas.
Gordy.
 
"Our freedom is not free. Please
remember those = who fought=20 to keep it."
Gordon L. Alton
129 Mariko Place
Salt Spring = Island, BC,=20 Can V8K 1E1
250-537-6706
gordy@saltspring.com
"Tailgunnerson"
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fory = Barton=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 = 7:53=20 PM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Flak

I have two chunks of flak that came = into the=20 radio room.  One came up between my feet and spent itself on = bottom-side=20 of radio desk
Second time it came in from left = side and tore=20 through cables which put Command Radio and intercome to waist & = tail=20 positions out of commision.  This one hit bucket seat I was = sitting in=20 before dropping to floor.
 
Fory Barton on Kuykendalls=20 crew
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0C785.6D35E400-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 06:19:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Rich) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:19:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak Message-ID: - Thanks to all who responded with your individual tales of flak encounters and how this now innocuous appearing piece of metal affected you or a crewman's lives. The fact that this stuff could penetrate most anything, go in any direction, and jeoprodize to the utmost degree you and your aircraft would I suppose make flak the most respected enemy action. Over Liepzig, Bob Hand, you state your Navigator had the misfortune of losing an eye to flak. I understand that area was very heavily defended with these guns. Liepzig (Meresberg) flak incidentally is a connection that brings both myself & my brother Dave to the 303rd Group as it was his wife's father & crew who were lost there due to flak downing "My Yorkshire Dream" in June '44. Bill Heller - were flak suits actually made to wear but best suited for sitting on due to weight and/or restriction of movement? And, were they supplied by individual choice or issued with your regular gear? Many thanks and regards, ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 09:13:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:13:12 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak References: Message-ID: <3ADD4C98.8100F55A@attglobal.net> Rich Young ... Flak suits WERE heavy BUT were issued by Supply prior to a mission and issued for the purpose of WEARING them. Many of us CHOSE to SIT on them due to many experiences with Flak coming up into the plane from underneath, ie., a NEAR or DIRECT hit. In the latter, it was almost curtains, of course. Much was joked about at the time about those who SAT on their Flak suits as they were assumed to be protecting the FAMILY JEWELS! On the other hand, Flak HELMETS were fashioned out of Infantryman helmets and we hammered the ear area out so we could wear our radio headsets underneath them Many of us only donned the Flak HELMET when in heavy Flak or in other cases when deemed necessary. Flak HELMETS were not an ISSUE but the Helmet was given you if you requested same of Supply. You did your OWN ear-area hammering to fashion it correctly. I did hear that SOME Bomb Groups DID issue such ready-hammered-out Helmets. Scenes such as we see in the post-war movies, wherein pilots and certain crewmen are wearing ther garrison cap - the one with a beak and the 50 mission crush - are an affront to the REAL action and the REAL way it was. Some of us, especially leaders who were usually photographed and MET by Brass after a mission, donned our garrison cap once close to home Base on mission return. In my personal case, I wore a COMPLETE Class A uniform UNDERNEATH my flying togs and many times, if on a lead where we WOULD be met by Brass ... I doffed the flying outfit and landed in complete Class A uniform. That last was just a personal fancy of mine. I decided I would be the best dressed POW if such came to pass ... Hope this gives you SOME food for thought on the Flak items .... Cheers! Bill Heller Rich wrote: > - Thanks to all who responded with your individual tales of flak > encounters and how this now innocuous appearing piece of metal affected you > or a crewman's lives. The fact that this stuff could penetrate most > anything, go in any direction, and jeoprodize to the utmost degree you and > your aircraft would I suppose make flak the most respected enemy action. > Over Liepzig, Bob Hand, you state your Navigator had the misfortune of > losing an eye to flak. I understand that area was very heavily defended > with these guns. Liepzig (Meresberg) flak incidentally is a connection > that brings both myself & my brother Dave to the 303rd Group as it was his > wife's father & crew who were lost there due to flak downing "My Yorkshire > Dream" in June '44. > Bill Heller - were flak suits actually made to wear but best suited for > sitting on due to weight and/or restriction of movement? And, were they > supplied by individual choice or issued with your regular gear? > Many thanks and regards, > > ÒÒÒÒÒÒ Rich Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 13:14:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:14:11 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: <9d.1449bc50.280edf13@aol.com> Barracks-mate Roger Kuykendall sadly missed. Best and Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 13:17:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:17:25 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: There was a wild tale going around in the "old days" that some crewmember picked up a chunk of spent flak from the aircraft floor and found the piece had the last four digits of his serial number on it....how's that for a close call? Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 13:27:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:27:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak Message-ID: <6b.12ed0e49.280ee23e@aol.com> If you've had Xrays at a dentist recently, you may have had a "flak vest" laid over your chest for the procedure. They were more like two-ton aprons that were most welcome in the target areas. The Leipzig/Zeitz raid was the 303rd's #280 and ours (Fink's Crew) #14, on Nov.30th '44. Target Oil Refinery, 20 250lb M-57s, air time 7hrs, 50min. Details, details........Cheers Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 13:32:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:32:34 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] flak Message-ID: Had my navigator been wearing his goggles, the damage might not have occurred....but his soft rubber goggles fogged up (no holes punched through the lens). The piece of flak hit the edge of his metal helmet and the jagged edge was forced into his eye. Long ride home that day. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 15:31:53 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:53 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] For Bob Hand Message-ID: Bob: Your Round Sounds was mailed yesterday. Hope you get it by Friday. Let me know when it arrives and what you think of it. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 16:19:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:19:20 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak and Mission #231 Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B66@NER-MSG06> Hello all, Speaking of Flak, anyone who has the 303rd CD ROM check out Mission #231 dated 8/24/44. I have been pulling of all my Fathers (Alfred Hollritt or "Hoolrite" on CD, BT / WG 427th SQ.) missions and now finally have a record of about 22 of his 27+. On this raid he was in a 305th BG (PFF) B-17G #42-97691 leading the 41CBW. According to the mission report this was the most intense and accurate Flak ever encountered by the Group! His navigator was wounded that day. On some raids he said the ground crewmen could literally shovel out the fragments... I imagine this was one of them. This CD is great!!!! Also look at mission #187 6/21/44. For years he always told me about a raid where numerous B-17's were lost at "Bombs Away". This must be it. From his Ball Turret he had a birds eye view of the horror over Berlin, Germany that day... This must be that raid. He always thought those men were KIA, He was grateful to learn how many survived, albeit POW's. How do I get a copy of "25 Milk Runs" by Richard "Dick" Johnson? I met him at the Hanger Dance last year and never realized he wrote a book. He was the "Other" Johnson in the 427th that was flying at the same time, it drove me nuts when trying to track down information without the CD. Oh, and Dad has a piece of Flak too, this one severed his oxygen mask in the turret! Todd- (Can't wait for the Molesworth tape!) From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 16:43:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:43:07 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B67@NER-MSG06> Terry, You were wondering what was left at Molesworth. I found plenty during my two visits. You can still see the J1 Hanger and the two T-2's of course. But look for the following neat 303rd "Stuff' still around. You can still see the main road where the 427th Squadron was based and the area where the Main tech site was located east of the J1, all the buildings are gone but the ground is still uneven where they stood. The Molesworth "Wireless" building still stands about a mile North of the base and you can access it easily. The 360th (?) tech site is just around the corner from "Old Weston" church (A 303rd landmark) and it is here you can walk 12 O'clock High style through many Quonset huts and large brick buildings, along the original WW II roads covered with grass and weeds. In one structure it looked as if the original curtains were still hanging inside!! I have some photos if you want to see them. Don't forget to grab a Pint at the Fox, Swan or Cross Keys while your retracing some footsteps ;-) Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 16:53:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:53:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B68@NER-MSG06> Be careful that book "Airfields of the Eighth, then and now" is from 1979! Much has changed since then. Although if you travel through the 1st 2nd and 3rd Division East Anglia bases today the original bases are VERY visible. Most bases have a memorial placed somewhere along a perimeter road... and you will always find wreaths or flowers placed there! Numerous Hangers, Runways, Taxiways, Control Towers and buildings are still standing just as were when the last Bomber lifted off from the base. It's amazing how untouched this part of England is. We really screwed up the New World didn't we :( Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 17:19:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (William Heller) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:19:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B68@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <3ADDBE85.30538EF1@attglobal.net> Todd ... Anent your Email message ... I do not think we screwed up the New World so much as we have forgotten how SINCERELY the British people appreciated our assistance during WW#2 (the one we won). They are a brave and formidable people and a great Ally. Cheers! Bill Heller "Hollritt, Todd" wrote: > Be careful that book "Airfields of the Eighth, then and now" is from 1979! > Much has changed since then. Although if you travel through the 1st 2nd and > 3rd Division East Anglia bases today the original bases are VERY visible. > Most bases have a memorial placed somewhere along a perimeter road... and > you will always find wreaths or flowers placed there! Numerous Hangers, > Runways, Taxiways, Control Towers and buildings are still standing just as > were when the last Bomber lifted off from the base. It's amazing how > untouched this part of England is. We really screwed up the New World didn't > we :( > Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 19:14:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:14:16 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak and Mission #231 In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B66@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <3ADD7708.14108.139357F@localhost> > How do I get a copy > of "25 Milk Runs" by Richard "Dick" Johnson? I met him at the Hanger > Dance last year and never realized he wrote a book. He was the "Other" > Johnson in the 427th that was flying at the same time, it drove me > nuts when trying to track down information without the CD. Todd, I'll copy this to Dick Johnson for you. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 18:28:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:28:52 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth Message-ID: <5b.14dabbc8.280f28d4@aol.com> todd why don't you send photos on internet for all to see?spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 18:31:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:31:58 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak and Mission #231 Message-ID: <3a.13d7a78a.280f298e@aol.com> gary,is dick our prez that lives in md? spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 19:35:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:35:46 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak and Mission #231 In-Reply-To: <3a.13d7a78a.280f298e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ADD7C12.7637.14CE27F@localhost> > gary,is dick our prez that lives in md? spec Yep! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 18:51:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:51:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] For Bob Hand Message-ID: Fantastic! Will keep an eye out for the mailman....a heap of thanks to you. Wasn't sure whether you wanted the WW-One stuff and the steam/Diesel locos.....yea or nay. Say. Many thanks again. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 18:56:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:56:01 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Flak Message-ID: When I was shot down on March 26, 1944, I had my Flak Vest just sitting in front of me with the bottom part tucked under me as much as possible. I was hit on my left hand, left shoulder, left side of my throat and left upper leg. The left side of my Flak Vest cloth covering was slightly shredded. There is still a small piece if steel in my left hand but I managed to get the piece out of my leg. It was "L" shaped about 1/4 inch on each side. My ex-wife threw out all of my WW II stuff, including the piece of flak, because I never looked at it. Too bad Cheers, Bill Dallas From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 20:23:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:23:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Cross Keys Message-ID: Hey Todd: You mention a pub by the name of Cross Keyes in one of your e-mails. Can you tell me about this? I've been to 38 of the former 8th bases from Molesworth to Boxted to Rackheath and all in between. Even been to The Fox and The Swan. But have never heard of Cross Keys. Have you been to The Eagle in Cambridge? Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'Thor542086@aol.com'" , >"'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:43:07 -0400 > >Terry, > You were wondering what was left at Molesworth. I found plenty during >my >two visits. You can still see the J1 Hanger and the two T-2's of course. >But >look for the following neat 303rd "Stuff' still around. You can still see >the main road where the 427th Squadron was based and the area where the >Main >tech site was located east of the J1, all the buildings are gone but the >ground is still uneven where they stood. The Molesworth "Wireless" building >still stands about a mile North of the base and you can access it easily. >The 360th (?) tech site is just around the corner from "Old Weston" church >(A 303rd landmark) and it is here you can walk 12 O'clock High style >through >many Quonset huts and large brick buildings, along the original WW II roads >covered with grass and weeds. In one structure it looked as if the original >curtains were still hanging inside!! I have some photos if you want to see >them. Don't forget to grab a Pint at the Fox, Swan or Cross Keys while your >retracing some footsteps ;-) >Todd- > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 20:47:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:47:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bases of the Eighth Message-ID: Todd: And I thought I was the only nut who spent a small fortune visiting the old stations. Which ones have you been to? Let's compare notes. I've been to Nuthamsted, Duxford, Bassingbourn, Alconbury, Molesworth, Kimbolton, Chelveston, Grafton Underwood, Polebrook, King's Cliffe, Rattlesden, Ridgewell, Lavenham, Thorpe Abbotts, Sudbury, Boxted, Saffrom Walden, Little Walden, Martlesham Heath, Framlingham, Debach, Sudbury, Wattisham, Great Ashfield, Horham, Mendlesham, Knettingshall, Metfield, Bungay, Hardwick, Seething, Snetterton Heath, Tibenham, Old Buckingham, Deopham Green, Bodney, North Pickenham, Wendling, Shipdham, Horsham St. Faith, and Rackheath. These are the ones that come to mind without my notes. I have been working on a "field guide" for all those wishing to visit the old stations and you are right, Airfields of the Eighth" is woefully out of date and did not cover all there is to see at each base. I've taken over 2,000 pics of the bases and have Friends of the Eighth contacts, names of landowners, history of each, pics of each memorial, Ordinance Survey Mpas 1:50,000, and pubs and churches having memoribilia. I'd love to compare notes with you. Send me your e-mail and I will forward you a couple of things. Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Molesworth >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:53:48 -0400 > >Be careful that book "Airfields of the Eighth, then and now" is from 1979! >Much has changed since then. Although if you travel through the 1st 2nd and >3rd Division East Anglia bases today the original bases are VERY visible. >Most bases have a memorial placed somewhere along a perimeter road... and >you will always find wreaths or flowers placed there! Numerous Hangers, >Runways, Taxiways, Control Towers and buildings are still standing just as >were when the last Bomber lifted off from the base. It's amazing how >untouched this part of England is. We really screwed up the New World >didn't >we :( >Todd- > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 18:32:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Duke Drewry) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:32:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Trip Message-ID: My road trip is coming into focus; After stops in Shreveport, Texarkana, = Birmingham, a couple of days in Atlanta, I should be at the 8th Air Force = Museum in Savannah for a day or two around April 26-27th. Hope to see = others there; then on to Virginia, Tennessee, Texarkana again and back = here. BTW-- last Sunday I went by and visited with Mr. Gordon Bale and wife, = Ruth. He was BTG in 359th Sirany Crew and flew several missions on = "Thunderbird". Had a nice long visit; they are both very nice, and = cheerful; she is a cancer survivor from 12 years ago; his health is not = all that good, having had some heart problems in recent years and is = unable to do too much. Hasn't been able to go fishing for a couple of = years and will miss his daughter's wedding coming up this summer. I'm = sure he would enjoy hearing from any 303rd friends that know him. Address is 1119 Redfish, Hitchcock, Tx 77563 they do not have a computer. Hope to see some of you on the road over the next couple of weeks. Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 21:27:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:27:43 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Trip References: Message-ID: <003501c0c846$069a1100$411b4e0c@o3n4f8> May you have a fair wind in your sails, and be safe home, Duke. lg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duke Drewry To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:32 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Trip My road trip is coming into focus; After stops in Shreveport, Texarkana, Birmingham, a couple of days in Atlanta, I should be at the 8th Air Force Museum in Savannah for a day or two around April 26-27th. Hope to see others there; then on to Virginia, Tennessee, Texarkana again and back here. BTW-- last Sunday I went by and visited with Mr. Gordon Bale and wife, Ruth. He was BTG in 359th Sirany Crew and flew several missions on "Thunderbird". Had a nice long visit; they are both very nice, and cheerful; she is a cancer survivor from 12 years ago; his health is not all that good, having had some heart problems in recent years and is unable to do too much. Hasn't been able to go fishing for a couple of years and will miss his daughter's wedding coming up this summer. I'm sure he would enjoy hearing from any 303rd friends that know him. Address is 1119 Redfish, Hitchcock, Tx 77563 they do not have a computer. Hope to see some of you on the road over the next couple of weeks. Duke Drewry From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 22:43:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:43:49 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] More flak Message-ID: <007601c0c850$b9ded020$d22664d8@computer> Regarding various messages about flak, I have a true story. On mission #66, I believe, returning from Romilly France, we were subjected to flak from an area near Paris. I was bombardier on Strickland crew and it was my 24th mission. We suffered a hit below the nose which tore 58 large holes and many smaller ones slightly wounding me and our copilot. The next day our crew chief, Sgt Markovich came to me with a piece of flak which had been wrapped around bar supporting the bombardiers seat. I never felt impact so must have been prety well spent. S trickland and I were advised that the piece was from an 88 and probably from bottom of the shell which held the fuse which apparently could be set for different altitudes and the flak does have obvious threading. Stamped on the side is number "341", which happened to coincide with last three numbers of our aircraft the Vicious Virgin which was #42=5341. Stars & Stripes photographed us by the rudder showing me and Strickland holding the piece. I still have it and am trying to find a copy of the original newspaper photo, which I am sure is somewhere in my old records. I am planning to send the flak and the original photo(if I can find it) to the Museum. Ed Lamme Bombardier - Strickland crew From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 22:50:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (JAMES PHILLIPS) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] More flak In-Reply-To: "Ed Lamme" 's message of Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:43:49 -0700 Message-ID: <2521-3ADE0C0D-548@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Ihave a copy of [the mighty eight] by roger freeman and i believe that picture is in there. Cheers Jim From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 22:46:34 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:46:34 +0100 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape Message-ID: <004c01c0c852$19744e60$f80110ac@Betac.com> Lloyd, et al - Sorry I'm so late. Please add my name to the list. I am hosting another FOTE meeting 23 June and I will show the tape at the meeting if it gets to me then. If whoever has the tape in early June can send it to me in time for the meeting, I would appreciate it; and will send it on immediately afterward. This is a cheeky request because it probably means bumping others in front of me, so if it does not happen I understand. FOTE meetings are a gathering of 8AF enthusiasts quarterly in the UK and new tapes are perfect for the meetings. Members include several authors and points of contact in England for 8AF groups. Usually about 50-75 members attend the meetings. Cheers. Brian McGuire ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Smith To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > LLoyd: > Please add Spider to your list > Richard Smith > 790 Crenshaw Dr. > Hemet ,Ca. 92543 > Can we make copies? > Spider From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 18 22:50:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Brian McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:50:02 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg References: Message-ID: <004d01c0c852$1ab33700$f80110ac@Betac.com> Kevin - If you would like I will check with Ted Inman to see if Duxford has a Norden already. I assume you are in contact with Steve Pena at Bassingbourn. Does SAvannah have one? They should be top priority it not, me thinks. Cheers. Brian M ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Pearson To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg > Greg: I received your voice mail last night about donating to museums. My > Norden will go to one of two places - either the American Air Museum at > Duxford of the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn, and only if > they provide in writing assurance the sight will be displayed. > > Thanks for your comments and I am well aware of the unscrupulish nature of > some museums. > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 01:29:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:29:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape References: <004c01c0c852$19744e60$f80110ac@Betac.com> Message-ID: <002501c0c867$d79dbec0$eb8e4d0c@o3n4f8> Brian, Please contact Jack Rencher via this forum. Don Kehne sent him one to and he may have it by now. If that doesnt work, let me know. We may be able to talk someone into making you a copy. Some of the guys on the talk forum have seen the tape already and can give you a critique of its content. I havent been in the Cambridge area since 1958 . My mothers' sister still lives there , however. Bill Owen did a fine job of identifying the planes shown on the tape. His brother served with the 303rd. Cheers to you Mr. McQuire. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McGuire To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:46 PM Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > Lloyd, et al - > Sorry I'm so late. Please add my name to the list. I am hosting another FOTE > meeting 23 June and I will show the tape at the meeting if it gets to me > then. > > If whoever has the tape in early June can send it to me in time for the > meeting, I would appreciate it; and will send it on immediately afterward. > This is a cheeky request because it probably means bumping others in front > of me, so if it does not happen I understand. FOTE meetings are a gathering > of 8AF enthusiasts quarterly in the UK and new tapes are perfect for the > meetings. Members include several authors and points of contact in England > for 8AF groups. Usually about 50-75 members attend the meetings. > > Cheers. > > Brian McGuire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dick Smith > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:44 PM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape > > > > LLoyd: > > Please add Spider to your list > > Richard Smith > > 790 Crenshaw Dr. > > Hemet ,Ca. 92543 > > Can we make copies? > > Spider > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 00:34:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (robert w. hanson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:34:52 -0600 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Another Flak Tale Message-ID: <003b01c0c860$2badcd00$18e90f3f@9exzq> While distributing chaff on a bomb run over Berlin. I heard an unusual noise and the radio room seemed to fill with snow. I then noticed that the liaison transmitter was rocking on its shock mounts. Further, I noticed a one by two inch hole about chest level (sitting-down-chest level) in the open plywood door in the rear of the radio room. This led me to notice the one by two inch hole in the starboard side of the transmitter and TWO holes in the starboard side of the radio room fuselage.A mental projection of a line through the radio room holes led to two more in the upper cowling of the number four engine. I then called the co-pilot, told him what had happened and suggested that he might want to watch the instruments for the No. 4 engine as well as the engine itself. I then sat back down next to the large carton of chaff in the middle of the room and prepared to resume pushing it out the chaff chute. For the first time I noticed I was still holding a half package of chaff in my left hand. The chaff looked like Xmas-tree tinsel and was packaged like Xmas-tree tinsel-- in a cardboard sleeve with a couple of inches of the silvery stuff sticking out each end of the sleeve. Half the package I was holding had been cut off flush with the top of my hand by the flack that went through the door and the end of the transmitter.... After we had finished the bomb run and things had quieted down I took the front panel off the transmitter, noticed that the piece of flack had cut a path through the various components including a lot of porcelain insulators, accounting for the snow, and had lodged in the port end of the transmitter. On digging it out I found a jagged piece of steel about one by two by about one-half inch. with German words and numerals cast on it. Still later I searched the radio room looking for a second piece without success. However, it showed up several weeks later when my parachute was undergoing a routine repacking and the rigger had found that it had severed five or six shroud lines in the chute. I usually hung my chest pack on the left dee ring of my chute harness when people were shooting at us. In this case I suspect it saved me from getting a half inch hole bored in my heart. Finally, while traveling on the Super Chief between Chicago and L.A. on the way to R & R, I passed the two pieces around some infantry officers while playing gin rummy in the club car and apparently because of my concentration on the game forgot about them and never saw them again. Sorry this became a saga. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 02:51:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (David Y) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:51:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: <001301c0c873$5911b1e0$5b9be0d8@h4k3401> Hello to All - - - Regarding the discussion about flak, I have a question that I've wondered about for a long time. At what range, approximatly, would an exploding flak shell cause serious damage to the plane or or have the potential to cause serious wounds? I've heard about the shrapnel hitting the plane and sounding like somebody was throwing gravel at them. I would assume that sometimes that shrapnel didn't penetrate the skin of the plane (or the skin of a crewman). I know that there is no hard and fast answer to my question, but maybe I could get a rough idea. Best regards, David Young From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 04:35:42 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:35:42 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flak Message-ID: David Young, That's a hard one to answer but I would guess about 25 to 35 feet. More in front of your plane because of your forward speed. A falling frozen peanut sandwich thrown out of higher airplane knocked the Plexiglas nose cone out of a B17 below and behind it. We wore our flak suits and sat on another part of one too also the helmets. We had a navigator who spread several out on the floor of the nose, then laid on it in the fetal position and covered himself up with more of them like a blanket. I looked up in the nose on one of our milk run bomb runs and saw this. The Bombardier said he did that on every Bomb run. He survived the war. We had a Damn good copilot on that crew. Best wishes Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 04:52:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:52:40 EDT Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd's tape Message-ID: Brian McGuire, I will mail my tape to you just as soon as it shows up. Please e-mail me the exact address you would want it addressed to. You can return it for me to see when you are through with it. All of us who went to England owe you one for the show you put on for us. Thank you, It was the most fun I've had since the war. I can't find my flak. I thought it was in my dresser drawer where I keep the exhaust valve head out of my Bonanza. The valve head is there but I didn't see the flak. I'll keep looking when I've got more time. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 07:00:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:00:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 training films Message-ID: <000701c0c895$f98b1d60$8a8f4d0c@o3n4f8> Here is a link for the "whipper snappers", and possibly even some of you more mature gentlemen. It's good fun, have a peek. http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/ Mind your 6 O:Clocks. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 08:26:59 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:26:59 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Don Kehnes' Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <001301c0c8a2$20a64a80$f6184e0c@o3n4f8> As this tape circulates amonst the veterans who were there, and the relatives of veterans who served there, I wonder if you all might consider suggesting a sound track that would be appropriate if one was added. At the moment the tape has no sound track. After giving it some careful thought, I would probably choose a song by Vera Lynn entitled, "We'll Meet Again". It would be interesting to hear what others of you might suggest. Please try to keep me posted on the various where-abouts of the several tapes going the rounds. Also, would anyone be willing to make a copy for Brian McQuire? Mr. Rencher has kindly offered his (when he gets it), but truth is , it is not needed before early June to meet Brians' schedule. Those of you who have watched the tape, please don't be reticent about critiquing it. Thanks to all. Lloyd. (palidin@worldnet.att.net). From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 15:04:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:04:06 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg Message-ID: Brian: I've been working with Buck Shuler at the 8th AF Heritage Museum and they have two Nordens. And Steve Pena and I are old buddies. He's got a Norden at the Tower Museum at Bassingbourn. Please check with Ted and see if the American Air Museum has one. Last time I was there I did not see one, but that could have changed. Thanks for the help. Did you ever update that list of Friends of the Eighth I sent you a while ago? Kevin >From: "Brian McGuire" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:50:02 +0100 > >Kevin - >If you would like I will check with Ted Inman to see if Duxford has a >Norden >already. I assume you are in contact with Steve Pena at Bassingbourn. Does >SAvannah have one? They should be top priority it not, me thinks. > >Cheers. > >Brian M >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kevin Pearson >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 2:51 PM >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] This message is for Pierce, Greg > > > > Greg: I received your voice mail last night about donating to museums. >My > > Norden will go to one of two places - either the American Air Museum at > > Duxford of the East Anglian Aviation Society at Bassingbourn, and only >if > > they provide in writing assurance the sight will be displayed. > > > > Thanks for your comments and I am well aware of the unscrupulish nature >of > > some museums. > > Kevin > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 15:06:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:06:45 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Don Kehnes' Molesworth tape. Message-ID: I think any of the songs from the era might be good. Glen Miller, Benny Goodman, Frances Langford, Fats Waller. I've always been partial to "There'll be Blue Skys Over (The White Cliffs of Dover). Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Don Kehnes' Molesworth tape. >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:26:59 -0400 > >As this tape circulates amonst the veterans who were there, and the >relatives of veterans who served there, I wonder if you all might consider >suggesting a sound track that would be appropriate if one was added. At >the >moment the tape has no sound track. After giving it some careful thought, >I >would probably choose a song by Vera Lynn entitled, "We'll Meet Again". It >would be interesting to hear what others of you might suggest. >Please try to keep me posted on the various where-abouts of the several >tapes going the rounds. Also, would anyone be willing to make a copy for >Brian McQuire? Mr. Rencher has kindly offered his (when he gets it), but >truth is , it is not needed before early June to meet Brians' schedule. >Those of you who have watched the tape, please don't be reticent about >critiquing it. Thanks to all. Lloyd. (palidin@worldnet.att.net). > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 15:22:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: We have all seen Stalag 17, The Great Escape (my favorite movie of all time by the way.) I've read many books about life in POW camps, but I am confused about the living conditions. In the movies you see nice bunks arranged around the perimeter of the building. But a man recently told me the barracks were actually divided up into rooms and there were sometimes 12 to a room. Is this true? And I was also told that the people sharing rooms were assigned different duties like cooking and that you had to take turns cooking in shifts. Is this true? And what is the food you remember most from the camps - probably no food at all. And how often were Red Cross Parcels distributed and what was there contents? One more question: I publish a newsletter for the Missouri Chapter of the 8th AFHS and I would like to receive some stories about the POW experience. If you were a POW, could you please jot down some of your recollections. If you send me your story, I will send you a few copies of my newsletter. (And I saw my first can of KLIM three weeks ago when I was in Belize, Central America. I thought they quit making that stuff!) Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 15:24:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:24:13 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Escape Kits Message-ID: Could one of you kind gentlemen tell me more about escape kits? What was their contents, when were they issued, and where did they get the money that was in them. Do any of you still have any of the silk escape maps? Kevin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 15:48:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:48:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Escape Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Could one of you kind gentlemen tell me more about escape kits? What was > their contents, when were they issued, and where did they get the money that > was in them. Do any of you still have any of the silk escape maps? Look at http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/russescp.gif which is an image of a little packet with translation info in the event of coming down near the Russian front. Also, http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/scarf1.jpg is an image showing just a small 4"x4" section of one of the big 3'x3' silk escape maps. The map was too big to get a picture of the whole thing that did it justice. The silk map is spectacular. I've always thought of framing it, but I was afraid that exposing it to light might be worse for it than leaving it folded up, so I've just left it folded up so far. There was also some foreign currency in with these two items, but I don't think they were related, as one was British and the other was Japanese, so I think they were just things my father collected, and not related to the escape items. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 16:54:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Dick Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:54:31 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Escape Kits References: Message-ID: <007201c0c8e9$06946ea0$1ef833cf@richards> Kevin : I still have my Escape map made on Silk. Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pearson" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Escape Kits > Could one of you kind gentlemen tell me more about escape kits? What was > their contents, when were they issued, and where did they get the money that > was in them. Do any of you still have any of the silk escape maps? > Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 21:55:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ADEEE6D.25340.8EC72@localhost> Kevin, A good friend of mine who lives about 30 miles away was a POW and one of the tunnel diggers at Stalag 17. He is a 303rder named Hal Gunn. My wife and I have been to his home a couple of times. Hal is a talented artist and made many sketches of life at Stalag 17 while he was there. I've been trying to get him to let me use a sample, but he's worried about copyrights. He is not online, so its a little harder to talk with him. I know he could answer your question and show you a 50 year old sketch of what life was like there. I'll give him a call and see what he can tell us. > We have all seen Stalag 17, The Great Escape (my favorite movie of all > time by the way.) I've read many books about life in POW camps, but I > am confused about the living conditions. In the movies you see nice > bunks arranged around the perimeter of the building. But a man > recently told me the barracks were actually divided up into rooms and > there were sometimes 12 to a room. Is this true? - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 22:00:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:00:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: Gary: Are you sure it was Stalag 17 or was it Stalag Luft 3 at Zagen, Poland. That's where the Great Escape took place and there is a small but beautiful memorial there now. And I found quite a bit on Luft 1 at Barth a while back and even corresponded with a museum director there. Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:57 -0700 > >Kevin, >A good friend of mine who lives about 30 miles away was a POW >and one of the tunnel diggers at Stalag 17. He is a 303rder named >Hal Gunn. My wife and I have been to his home a couple of times. >Hal is a talented artist and made many sketches of life at Stalag 17 >while he was there. I've been trying to get him to let me use a >sample, but he's worried about copyrights. He is not online, so its >a little harder to talk with him. I know he could answer your >question and show you a 50 year old sketch of what life was like >there. I'll give him a call and see what he can tell us. > > > > We have all seen Stalag 17, The Great Escape (my favorite movie of all > > time by the way.) I've read many books about life in POW camps, but I > > am confused about the living conditions. In the movies you see nice > > bunks arranged around the perimeter of the building. But a man > > recently told me the barracks were actually divided up into rooms and > > there were sometimes 12 to a room. Is this true? > > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 23:17:07 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ADF0173.19734.348DD6@localhost> > Are you sure it was Stalag 17 or was it Stalag Luft 3 Ohhhhh you are right. It was Luft 3. Hal and his wife are neat people and a joy to talk with. It was quite an experience and he still talks to groups about it. He was the only married member of the Ray Jess crew when they were shot down. A newspaper article about his is on the Jess Crew page here: http://www.303rdbga.com/358jess.html - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 19 23:29:40 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:29:40 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ATTENTION :-Brian McGuire Message-ID: <01ca01c0c920$3a87f920$a5bb9ace@mjpmtman> I know that your are as busy as the proverbial cat on a tin roofl BUT ---I seem to have a hard time contacting you through regular channels S-O-O-O-O I'll go this route! Did you ever tell me that you had received the print?. It was mailed after I rec'd your e-mail of march 10 2001 - 9:07 AM Maurice J. Paulk ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McGuire To: Maurice Paulk Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Photo - Idaliza I could use the extra print, because I have filled up our man operations building with photos, displays, and artwork and am most of the way there on another building. That is where I will hang the new photo. Sorry about the confusion. I am way overextended trying to do too much and my memory is increasingly failing me. Cheers. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: Brian McGuire RAF REP. Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Fw: Photo - Idaliza ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: Brian McGuire RAF REP. Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:48 PM Subject: Photo - Idaliza From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 00:24:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:24:05 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Vol 1 #245 about flack/stories Message-ID: <42.13c06c05.2810cd95@aol.com> --part1_42.13c06c05.2810cd95_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I have two pieces I saved and was recently looking at, I got them on mission #12 on 14 October of 43, this was one of the deadliest missions. One small piece was about the size of a quarter and the other about (4) four inches long by (1) inch wide. The larger of the two was stuck in the empty oxygen tank behind my seat. The peculiar thing is that on the larger piece of flack I found the numbers # 7427. What is so unusual about this is that my officer serial number was # 0677472, the last four numbers matching the numbers on the flack. Now isn't that a strange eerie coincidence, kind like an omen of some kind. Someone was watching my back on that mission. For those young ones or those researching this for family members who served, I had my son scan these and can send a photo of these unusual pieces, just send me your email address. Bill Bergeron --part1_42.13c06c05.2810cd95_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All,
      I have two pieces I saved and was recently looking at, I got them on
mission #12 on 14 October of 43, this was one of the deadliest missions. One
small piece was about the size of a quarter and the other about (4) four
inches long by (1) inch wide.
The larger of the two was stuck in the empty oxygen tank behind my seat. The
peculiar thing is that on the larger piece of flack I found the numbers #
7427. What is so unusual about this is that my officer serial number was #
0677472, the last four numbers matching the numbers on the flack. Now isn't
that a strange eerie coincidence, kind like an omen of some kind. Someone was
watching my back on that mission. For those young ones or those researching
this for family members who served, I had my son scan these and can send a
photo of these unusual pieces, just send me your email address.
Bill Bergeron --part1_42.13c06c05.2810cd95_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 06:22:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:22:25 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies References: <3ADEEE6D.25340.8EC72@localhost> Message-ID: <007c01c0c959$e2e7faa0$2109f4cc@e0y0k4> Hi Gary, I'd sure be interested in those sketches if you can get them. My father (Donald M. Alton, 323/91stBG) was in XVIIB from Oct. '43, until the end of the war. He too, was a tunnel digger, but gave it up after the Germans kept finding the tunnels. He was in the barracks beside the front gate, from where most of the tunnels were started. After many tunnels were 'ferretted' out, the Germans kicked everyone out of that barracks, and boarded it up. Dad ended up in barracks 37, with Kurt Kurtenback, who was the Sgt. in charge of the camp, and many other personalities, such as Ben Phelper, and Don Bevan. Bevan helped write the screenplay for the play, "Stalag 17", which became the movie later on, and then was eventually turned into the TV show, Hogan's Heroes. Ben Phelper also became a consultant on the Hogan's Heroes series. Phelper was a very talented writer and artist. The commandant of the camp cut off all hot water to the showers, in the winter of '43, as punishment for escape attempts. The only time they had hot water again, was when Red Cross representatives came to visit. Dad only remembered one man ever successfully escaping. One other had his bullet riddled coat hung on the front gate as a reminder of what not to do, for those that remained. It stayed there only a short time, before someone took it down at night. By the middle of 1944, Dad and many others quit bothering to escape. They all figured the war would be over soon. It wasn't, of course, and they endured one more winter with little or no heat. That is the thing Dad remembered more than anything, was the cold, and almost freezing to death. He told me he spent many days in bed, with 2 thin blankets, and 2 greatcoats, to keep warm. He almost froze to death again, in the spring of '45, when all the 'residents' were force marched up into the Bavarian Alps, to stay away from the Russians. He was not liberated until the very end, on May 3, 1945. The men of Patton's 13th Tank Regiment had sent some jeeps forward, and the kriegies spotted them, and the American flag flying. Many of the men wept with joy, and sorrow. It was something that needs to never be forgotten. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706 gordy@saltspring.com ********************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies > Kevin, > A good friend of mine who lives about 30 miles away was a POW > and one of the tunnel diggers at Stalag 17. He is a 303rder named > Hal Gunn. My wife and I have been to his home a couple of times. > Hal is a talented artist and made many sketches of life at Stalag 17 > while he was there. I've been trying to get him to let me use a > sample, but he's worried about copyrights. He is not online, so its > a little harder to talk with him. I know he could answer your > question and show you a 50 year old sketch of what life was like > there. I'll give him a call and see what he can tell us. > > > > We have all seen Stalag 17, The Great Escape (my favorite movie of all > > time by the way.) I've read many books about life in POW camps, but I > > am confused about the living conditions. In the movies you see nice > > bunks arranged around the perimeter of the building. But a man > > recently told me the barracks were actually divided up into rooms and > > there were sometimes 12 to a room. Is this true? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 13:05:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:05:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: <007c01c0c959$e2e7faa0$2109f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: Relative to life in the Stalags, years ago, I visited a museum, I think it was the one at Wright Patterson AFB, ( but it may have been Smithsonian), and saw a display of items that were "manufactured" by the prisoners. Ie things like radios, compass' and other escape and signaling devices, all made out of spoons and forks and things. Years later, I tried to locate this display for a project I was working on, and I was told that the display was no longer there, but on the road or something. Has anyone else seen this display, and if so, where is it now? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 13:37:12 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:37:12 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: <4a.148950ff.28118778@aol.com> The book "BEHIND THE WIRE - STALAG LUFT III - SOUTH COMPOUND" by Arnold A. Wright is the most comprehensive volume I've ever seen on the fates/facts/figures of over 2000 U.S. POWs....a staggering volume to say the least. Last known availability was through the author in Benton, AR....Supposedly Harry Gobrecht has a copy according to a letter I got from Wright. Other volumes have been donated to the Mighty Eighth. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 14:23:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:23:18 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Another Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: Were any of you ever trained as "code talkers?" I have heard of an organization known as MIS-6, a clandestined arm of the OSS that trained Air Corps officers on how to send secretly coded messages in the body of regular letters using a matrix of, for example, the first letter of the first word, the second letter of the third word, the third letter of the fifth word and the first letter of the seventh word and so on. The letter were placed in a column and were written down the first column then when it was full, the second column was started. When the message was complete, you would read it from left to right like an ordinary book. I have been trying to find anyone who was trained as a "code talker." I have also heard "code talkers" were trained at Bodney. I have also read that MIS-6 also smuggled everything from money and documents, to radio tubes and guns into the camps via Red Cross parcels in such things as board games, baseballs, etc. Is there any truth to this organization? Does anyone remember anything like this? I've posted this question before, but no one responded at the time. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 14:30:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:30:54 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Another Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: Were any of you ever trained as "code talkers?" I have heard of an organization known as MIS-6, a clandestined arm of the OSS that trained Air Corps officers on how to send secretly coded messages in the body of regular letters using a matrix of, for example, the first letter of the first word, the second letter of the third word, the third letter of the fifth word and the first letter of the seventh word and so on. The letter were placed in a column and were written down the first column then when it was full, the second column was started. When the message was complete, you would read it from left to right like an ordinary book. I have been trying to find anyone who was trained as a "code talker." I have also heard "code talkers" were trained at Bodney. I have also read that MIS-6 also smuggled everything from money and documents, to radio tubes and guns into the camps via Red Cross parcels in such things as board games, baseballs, etc. Is there any truth to this organization? Does anyone remember anything like this? I've posted this question before, but no one responded at the time. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 22:43:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:43:01 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: <007c01c0c959$e2e7faa0$2109f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3AE04AF5.13156.73524F@localhost> Gordy, > I'd sure be interested in those sketches if you can get them. I'll give Hal Gunn a call and see what he says. One interesting story he told me: They were hungry all the time. After the prisoners were allowed to receive some mail and Red Cross packages, his wife sent him a photo of herself on the beach in a bathing suit holding a bottle of Coke. He showed it around to the other POWs and their comment was, "Wow! Coca Cola." I'll try to call him this weekend and let you know what he says. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 21:58:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: Gary and Gordy: In many of the POW books I've read the guys talk about being so hungry all the time they didn't think much about sex, unusual given their age. Given the choice between a beautiful woman and a dozen eggs, the eggs would win out every time. Plus, I think their morals were a bit better than our generation. Kevin >From: "Gary Moncur" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies >Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:43:01 -0700 > >Gordy, > > I'd sure be interested in those sketches if you can get them. > >I'll give Hal Gunn a call and see what he says. One interesting story >he told me: They were hungry all the time. After the prisoners >were allowed to receive some mail and Red Cross packages, his >wife sent him a photo of herself on the beach in a bathing suit >holding a bottle of Coke. He showed it around to the other POWs >and their comment was, "Wow! Coca Cola." >I'll try to call him this weekend and let you know what he says. > >- Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 23:42:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:42:24 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: <32.13da8d14.28121550@aol.com> what sketches? did i miss something? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 20 23:43:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:43:36 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies Message-ID: <93.99889fb.28121598@aol.com> heard they fraternized thru fences with fraulines? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 01:29:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:29:58 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos and Bases Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B77@NER-MSG06> Where could I post photos so those who requested can check them out? Gary has posted some of my photos on 303bga.com. Just search "Hollritt" Kevin, you have visited many more bases than me. I have been to Cambridge of course, Molesworth (Twice), Kimbolton, Grafton Underwood (Final reunion), Chelveston, Little Staughton, Bassingbourn, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, Duxford, Bury St, Edmonds (Had the rental 1/2 way up to take-off speed on the abandoned E-W runway! With permission from the farmer of course. An eerie site as you glance out the window at the 94th BG Tower, Hangers and huts racing past :() Dad was ready to move to the radio room in the car and await the crash - He loved it though!!!) Rattlesden (We really rolled on the "active" here too, the video is cool!!), Alconbury, Hendon and a few RAF bases too. The Pub list is three times as long (Hic) but just as fun. Talking of Pubs the "Cross Keys" is a Free House in of all places... Molesworth!!! It's also where Airman "Homer" lived out his retirement after Tour Of Duty. Venture into the metropolis called Molesworth and there you will find the WW II era Pub just around the corner from the Church. We celebrated well into the night here after the 2000 Hanger Dance with Two 303rd veterans and all the locals gathered round, between the fog and the stories it was 1944 all over again. I will send you some photos as soon as I can Kevin. Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 01:48:26 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:48:26 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Escape Kit Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B78@NER-MSG06> Here's what Dad (427th BT) pulled out of his 303rd bag of goodies... 1 "Tiny" compass (Could sit on the tip of your finger!) ball floating in water, about this big ( .) I guess. 2 Sewn into the back of a button, another compass that sits on a pin head. (Both still work-built in good ol' USA) 3 Lots of foreign currency - Coins - Old and outdated even during WW II. Go figure! 4 A fishing kit, also very small like a pocket knife. 5 Mug shots in civilian clothes for illegal ID's, later he found out the Nazi's knew you squadron from the tie the put you in. That's the USAAF for ya! 6 (During war) Extra food, he got the cooks some flying hours on training flights. They returned the favor with custom box lunches! He had some other items years ago, this is what's left. People think your David Copperfield when you perform the compass trick :-) Todd - From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 02:59:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:59:47 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos and Bases In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B77@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <3AE08723.11408.15E6D2D@localhost> > Where could I post photos so those who requested can check them out? Todd, You might look at something like myfamily.com It's free to create a site for a family or organization. Pictures can be posted and viewed by members. I'm sure there are other free sites as well. I don't have the time or web space available to do it through 303rdbga.com. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 05:38:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:38:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest Message-ID: <008901c0ca1c$e9d32d80$40904d0c@o3n4f8> Recent comments have made reference to the Messerschmitt 163 Komet. Here is a source for an exellent article on the subject by one of Germanys' leading test pilots for those who may have further interest in the "flatulant bumble-bee". Also an excellent source on the P51 evolution, and an upclose look at "Shoo Shoo Baby" with detailed interior photos. Enjoy. http://www.flightjournal.com/index.asp From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 07:09:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:09:30 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies References: <3AE04AF5.13156.73524F@localhost> Message-ID: <009201c0ca29$a0e97c20$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Thanks, Gary. Tell him I have a few he might be interested in as well. They were drawn by a fellow named Roy Butler, 100BG. I have Roy's email and snail mail address if Hal wants them. gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies > Gordy, > > I'd sure be interested in those sketches if you can get them. > > I'll give Hal Gunn a call and see what he says. One interesting story > he told me: They were hungry all the time. After the prisoners > were allowed to receive some mail and Red Cross packages, his > wife sent him a photo of herself on the beach in a bathing suit > holding a bottle of Coke. He showed it around to the other POWs > and their comment was, "Wow! Coca Cola." > I'll try to call him this weekend and let you know what he says. > > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 15:31:50 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (John J. Nicastro Sr.) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:31:50 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Offline Message-ID: <001d01c0ca6f$ceca02e0$cf0e33d0@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0CA4E.4682A200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C0CA4E.4682A200" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C0CA4E.4682A200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please drop me from 303 talk line temporally. Will call back when I = return. Thanks ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C0CA4E.4682A200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
  Please drop me from 303 talk line temporally. = Will call=20 back when I return. Thanks ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C0CA4E.4682A200-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0CA4E.4682A200 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Ivy.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c0ca6f$cd8b1a40$cf0e33d0@oemcomputer> R0lGODlh/wNdAPf/AP///4SEhIyMjJSUlJycnKWlpa2trbW1tb29vcbGxs7OztbW1t7e3ufn5+/v 7/f3987GxtbOzt7W1r21ta2lpbWtrca9vZyUlKWcnMa9td7WztbOxr21rc7Gvefezt7Wxt7Wve/v 5/f37///987OxtbWzt7e1ufn3r29ta2tpbW1rcbGvZSUjJyclKWlnIyMhN7ezufn1u/v3tbWxr29 rcbGtc7OvbW1pf//562tnPf33qWllO/v1t7exufnztbWvc7Otb29pcbGrf//3vf31u/vzufnxt7e vdbWtc7Orf//1u/vxufnvff/zvf/1u/3zufvxt7nvff/3u/31ufvztbevc7WtcbOrd7nxr3Gpff/ 5+/33ufv1tbexs7WvcbOtbW9pa21nO//zt7vvdbntd7nzr3Gre//1uf3ztbnvd7vxufv3sbOvaWt nPf/79bezs7WxrW9ra21pe//3uf31s7evcbWtd7vztbnxr3Ord7n1r3Gtef33sbWvd7v1s7extbn zr3OtbXGrefv5+/378bOxs7Wztbe1t7n3rW9taWtpa21rb3GvYyUjJSclJylnISMhM7ezsbWxrXG tb3OvcbOzq21tZScnMbGzq2lrcDAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:43:07 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest References: <008901c0ca1c$e9d32d80$40904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <002201c0ca25$f1c20940$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0C9EB.44C48040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd, I did a little research on SSSBaby a couple of years ago, and it is a plane with a storied past. This is my own take on the plane, and I have since found out that she may indeed have had enclosed waist windows, although when they were put in remains a bit of a mystery. It was part of a block of B17s that came out with that feature, but I've talked to people from the 441st sub depot that are sure that when they worked on the 401 squadron plane (91BG), it never had windows. My father, Don Alton, 323rd/91st, told me that some of the old F models he flew in, in 1943, also had windows that they'd put in place until they got out over the channel, and then they would slide down in channels below the window opening. They wouldn't be put up again until they were returning from the mission, again over the channel. Here is my story, a list of the missions flown, and a picture of ShooShooShooBaby, as a Swedish airliner. Gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706 gordy@saltspring.com ************************************ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest > Recent comments have made reference to the Messerschmitt 163 Komet. Here is > a source for an exellent article on the subject by one of Germanys' leading > test pilots for those who may have further interest in the "flatulant > bumble-bee". Also an excellent source on the P51 evolution, and an upclose > look at "Shoo Shoo Baby" with detailed interior photos. Enjoy. > http://www.flightjournal.com/index.asp > ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0C9EB.44C48040 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="TM Loop, Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TM Loop, Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby.eml" Received: from gordy (ss25.imagenisp.com [204.244.138.46]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 2CLHGTPY; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:51:23 -0700 Message-ID: <010d01bf9f63$41253780$4a8af4cc@gordy> From: "Gordon L. Alton" To: Subject: TM Loop, Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:58:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby by Gordon Alton Shoo Shoo Baby started life as B-17G, serial #42-32076. It was built in Seattle in March, 1944. This was a transition time for paint jobs, so the data block was stencilled on an olive drab patch before the complete paint job was done. The olive drab was dropped as the main paint scheme on all B17s before the plane was finished, so the rest of the plane was polished silver aluminum. It was originally named "Shoo Shoo Baby" by crew chief Hank Cordes, after the famous song by the Andrews Sisters. The song actually had three 'Shoos', but not this plane, at this stage in time. There was also no nose art to start with, only Gothic lettering. I have only seen one picture of the plane with just this lettering. The picture shows the crew at that time of Soderberg, Bogert, Borchert, Cordes, Brahman, Gallagher, Hughes, Bonomo, McDuffee, Sylvester, and Langford, posed in front of the plane. The pilot who got to fly the plane first, after it landed in England, was Paul McDuffee. He liked the handling of the plane so much, he requested it as his own. McDuffee recognised the plane as the one in a hundred that was perfectly balanced and trimmed, and was a dream to fly. His combat experience and influence helped him to get his wish. The B17-G became his plane in the 91BG(H), at Station 121, Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. The airfield was one of many located in the East Anglia part of England, northeast of London, where the Americans flew from to wage war on Hitler's Germany. Seven different pilots took the plane on her twenty-three credited missions. They were Lts. Paul G. McDuffee, who flew the first mission, and John L. Black, Philip R. Goynes, Roy J. Griesbach, Thomas H. Gunn, Sam Newton, and Robert J. Guenther, who flew the last mission, and was interned with the plane and crew in Sweden on May 29, 1944. One mission earned McDuffee the distinction, and an award. He flew the only lone mission that I know of that was credited to a 91st Bomb Group plane. On April 9, 1944, McDuffee and crew flew on to a mission to Gdynia/Marienburg, after all but two of the 401st BS planes had aborted, and they lost even those two in the clouds. They came out of the cloud layer to find themselves alone. They joined up with some other B17s of the 41st Combat Wing, and went on to the target and back. They were in the air for almost thirteen hours, and the engines shut down immediately after landing, completely out of fuel. The famous 91BG nose artist, Tony Starcer, did a beautiful nose art of a Vargas girl on the plane in late April or early May of 1944. It was redone by Starcer at least two more times, once in 1944, and once in the mid '80s when Starcer flew from California to Dover AFB in Delaware for the plane's reconstruction. The third 'Shoo' was added after McDuffee had completed his missions, possibly after some battle damage. I have been told by some that McDuffee had three 'Shoos', and others say that it was Guenther who put the third 'Shoo' on her. I tend to think it was Guenther. I was told that McDuffee was very relieved at having done his tour, in May of '45, and wasn't too concerned with what happened to the airplane. Who can blame him? He was busy celebrating. Guenther, on the other hand, went on four or five more missions, all but two of which were aborted. The last one, the planes 24th mission, was to Poznan in Poland. After dropping her bomb load, the plane was forced into neutral Swedish territory by German fighters. She had sustained battle damage and was down to three engines. The FW190s flew along side the crippled bomber but did not fire. The crew and plane were interned in Sweden. Before the war had ended, the Swedish government had made a deal with the Americans to purchase ten B17s for about a dollar each, in exchange for the release into American custody of the detainees from the interned plane, and other bomber aircrews. The agreement stipulated that none of the Americans were to fly in combat again, but apparently some of them eventually did before the war was over. Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby now entered her commercial phase, as the 'Stig Viking'. Converted to an airliner, and later sold to the Danish government, she was used to map the icecaps in Greenland. Her Danish name was 'Sore Bjorn', or 'Great Bear'. Still in a photographic role, she was bought by the French and used for six years in Africa before they finally retired her and left her to rot in France. An American named Steve Birdsall found out about the abandoned old bird and managed to aquire it for the USAF for about twenty cents. It was dismantled very poorly by the USAF, and shipped aboard a C-5 Galaxy to the United States. The butcher job done by the Air Force when dismantling her for shipment greatly added to the time and effort required for her rebuilding. A lot of research went into getting the rebuild just right. Experts were contacted that said the plane was one of a group of 100 planes that had H-shaped plexiglass windows. However, one of the armnament mechanics that worked on her, who I contacted recently, said he never saw any H-shaped plexiglass windows on any 401st BS planes. The rebuild has the H-shaped windows, and I have seen a picture of the plane on the ground in Sweden, with the H-shaped windows. There was also argument about whether to put the third 'Shoo' back on the plane, but Starcer did repaint it again with the third 'Shoo'. Some 60,000 man hours later, Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby flew again, in 1988. She remains today as one of the best restoration jobs ever done, and should be with us for many years to come. Note: Many people contributed to this story. I got information from 'Plane Names and Fancy Noses', by Ray Bowden, and 'The Ragged Irregulars of Bassingbourn', by Marion Havelaar. Individuals also contributed, and they are Fred Crevallo, Cliff Schultz, Joe Harlick, Bernie Stanton, Paul Chryst, Wally Forman, Steve Pena, and Charlie Busa. Many discussions took place, and there were others who helped along the way as well. Thank you all. There were almost thirty B17s and B24s, many fighter planes, and B29s named 'Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby'. I have checked my facts and serial numbers along the way, and believe them to be correct about this one plane. I am giving this story to the Tower Museum, Bassingbourn, so I ask that it be used for your personal enjoyment only. 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Au4DsCWwTjpVfy0cfMCdgLL87jBO0no3TPbpTz8nC8Dy2J79Rzye3HTpUpAVCygA8jgdvLbqO/So UdgcA4BIyMDnPBzx1wBUZJDAg4Idce2UXp/30fzq1aEtGu7n5/5bv1qYqAwwPuuMe3SoZfk2beMj nj+63HXt7VXVm4XPBJUjA6FjxnGe1OiAcHeAcNJ19m7461caNACAoG7dn3ww71WikYTSIDhVDkAB RglUYngZzlifxqGV3EwUMQDDOxA4yY0jKknqcFm/Or8RJljB6NGzEYA+YbRnpx1PAqEk+d1PHmYG TjghenTpxUhASKQqNpIjPHqflOPTgnp9etVIiQj442uCuOACGIHH0pY/myW/gVSuOACC/ZcCpD0k OTnMQzk+1LbsxMmT0CAcAYGX9BT/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0C9EB.44C48040-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 21:42:11 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:42:11 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest References: <008901c0ca1c$e9d32d80$40904d0c@o3n4f8> <002201c0ca25$f1c20940$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <000d01c0caa3$8be38e40$2e904d0c@o3n4f8> Thanks Gordon. I enjoy reading your comments (on both sites). In the photos referenced SSBaby shows windows in the waist gun positions. The web URL is for Flight Journal ( hope it is ok to cite the magazine here). In any case, it is a good site and their articles are germaine to what is discussed both at the 303rd & HB. Thanks for the picture. Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Alton To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest > Hi Lloyd, > I did a little research on SSSBaby a couple of years ago, and it is a plane > with a storied past. This is my own take on the plane, and I have since > found out that she may indeed have had enclosed waist windows, although when > they were put in remains a bit of a mystery. It was part of a block of B17s > that came out with that feature, but I've talked to people from the 441st > sub depot that are sure that when they worked on the 401 squadron plane > (91BG), it never had windows. My father, Don Alton, 323rd/91st, told me that > some of the old F models he flew in, in 1943, also had windows that they'd > put in place until they got out over the channel, and then they would slide > down in channels below the window opening. They wouldn't be put up again > until they were returning from the mission, again over the channel. > Here is my story, a list of the missions flown, and a picture of > ShooShooShooBaby, as a Swedish airliner. > Gordy. > > "Our freedom is not free. Please > remember those who fought to keep it." > Gordon L. Alton > 129 Mariko Place > Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 > 250-537-6706 > gordy@saltspring.com > ************************************ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lloyd J Grant" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:38 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Articles of interest > > > > Recent comments have made reference to the Messerschmitt 163 Komet. Here > is > > a source for an exellent article on the subject by one of Germanys' > leading > > test pilots for those who may have further interest in the "flatulant > > bumble-bee". Also an excellent source on the P51 evolution, and an > upclose > > look at "Shoo Shoo Baby" with detailed interior photos. Enjoy. > > http://www.flightjournal.com/index.asp > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 21 22:23:25 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:23:25 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos and Bases Message-ID: Well I'll be damned! I've never heard of the Cross Kees before but will have to make a point to visit on my next trip across the pond. I loved the photos, too! Thanks for sending them. Yes, like you, I have been to many bases, but multiply bases times ten and that would equal the number of pubs visited!!! (BIG hic!) There just something about those English pints, the agelesness of the pubs, and the spirit of the Enlish people to keep those pints flowing all night long. One base I did leave out of my list was Steeple Morden. Did you go to the Golden Lion just south of Steeple Morden - another cool pub with many artifacts from the war. Thanks again for the pics! They really brightened my day (not to mention wet my thirst!) Kevin >From: "Hollritt, Todd" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Photos and Bases >Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:29:58 -0400 > > Where could I post photos so those who requested can check them out? >Gary >has posted some of my photos on 303bga.com. Just search "Hollritt" > Kevin, you have visited many more bases than me. I have been to >Cambridge >of course, Molesworth (Twice), Kimbolton, Grafton Underwood (Final >reunion), >Chelveston, Little Staughton, Bassingbourn, Steeple Morden, Fowlmere, >Duxford, Bury St, Edmonds (Had the rental 1/2 way up to take-off speed on >the abandoned E-W runway! With permission from the farmer of course. An >eerie site as you glance out the window at the 94th BG Tower, Hangers and >huts racing past :() Dad was ready to move to the radio room in the car and >await the crash - He loved it though!!!) Rattlesden (We really rolled on >the >"active" here too, the video is cool!!), Alconbury, Hendon and a few RAF >bases too. The Pub list is three times as long (Hic) but just as fun. >Talking of Pubs the "Cross Keys" is a Free House in of all places... >Molesworth!!! It's also where Airman "Homer" lived out his retirement after >Tour Of Duty. Venture into the metropolis called Molesworth and there you >will find the WW II era Pub just around the corner from the Church. We >celebrated well into the night here after the 2000 Hanger Dance with Two >303rd veterans and all the locals gathered round, between the fog and the >stories it was 1944 all over again. > I will send you some photos as soon as I can Kevin. > >Todd- > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 00:06:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:06:20 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: <009201c0ca29$a0e97c20$ee09f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3AE1AFFC.6171.63B13C@localhost> Gordy, I just spoke with Hal Gunn. His son has scanned all his sketches of life at Stalag Luft III and is supposed to call me. Hopefully, I'll be able to add some of them to the web page. I believe there are digital copies he can send me. Can you send me scans of Roy Butler's sketches? I'll print them and take them to Hal. He's really lost with the internet. Thanks! > Thanks, Gary. > Tell him I have a few he might be interested in as well. They were > drawn by a fellow named Roy Butler, 100BG. I have Roy's email and > snail mail address if Hal wants them. gordy. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 02:34:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:34:35 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Graphics mistake Message-ID: <003a01c0cacc$63c3f660$8809f4cc@e0y0k4> My apologies to Gary as host, those on the list who read it by digest form, or those that can't receive graphics through this method. Not all lists are like this, but some are, and I should have checked with Gary first. Hope I didn't mess anyone up to bad. Won't happen again. gordy. "Our freedom is not free. Please remember those who fought to keep it." Gordon L. Alton 129 Mariko Place Salt Spring Island, BC, Can V8K 1E1 250-537-6706 gordy@saltspring.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 02:39:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gordon Alton) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:39:18 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies References: <3AE1AFFC.6171.63B13C@localhost> Message-ID: <004401c0cacd$0c3cee00$8809f4cc@e0y0k4> Sure can, Gary. I have them on a Zip disc somewhere, but it may take me a day or two to find them, having just moved. I am slowly finding things I packed away. Then it will just be a matter of sending them over the net. Just to make sure they get sent to the right address, what is your personal email address, so I can double check it? Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies > Gordy, > I just spoke with Hal Gunn. His son has scanned all his sketches of > life at Stalag Luft III and is supposed to call me. Hopefully, I'll be > able to add some of them to the web page. I believe there are > digital copies he can send me. Can you send me scans of Roy > Butler's sketches? I'll print them and take them to Hal. He's really > lost with the internet. > > Thanks! > > Thanks, Gary. > > Tell him I have a few he might be interested in as well. They were > > drawn by a fellow named Roy Butler, 100BG. I have Roy's email and > > snail mail address if Hal wants them. gordy. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 03:10:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:10:14 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape Message-ID: <001801c0cad1$5fe08860$37bb9ace@mjpmtman> Molesworth tape----in last part of film it shows a large house with croquet court and swimming pool.a churc and town in the back ground. Is this the Lord ??? mansion that he truned over to a hospital --or was it for R & R???? Waist windows -- be aware of the fact that I was in only 3, 17s the first was a ride of the north sea for formation flight an F [think it was Black Diamond ] and the G that I flew in on the Continental express and the G that took me to Africa. I have looked is several but some where I seem to remember seeing a window that pulled toward you and then either hinged back or slid back[ toward the tail sectionout of the way.. 55 years late I winh I had paid more attentioin to what I was looking at. CARRY ON ! Maurice Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 04:32:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:32:03 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question for the Kriegies In-Reply-To: <004401c0cacd$0c3cee00$8809f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3AE1EE43.12532.157000E@localhost> Gordy (and anyone) The best way to email me a graphic is to me at: glm@xmission.com There is one less step in the process to get it to me and XMission can handle bigger files than our 303rd server. Thanks! > Sure can, Gary. > I have them on a Zip disc somewhere, but it may take me a day or two > to > find them, having just moved. I am slowly finding things I packed > away. Then it will just be a matter of sending them over the net. Just > to make sure they get sent to the right address, what is your personal > email address, so I can double check it? Gordy. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 04:35:33 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:35:33 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Graphics mistake In-Reply-To: <003a01c0cacc$63c3f660$8809f4cc@e0y0k4> Message-ID: <3AE1EF15.20170.15A31AD@localhost> > My apologies to Gary as host, those on the list who read it by digest > form, or those that can't receive graphics through this method. Not > all lists are like this, but some are, and I should have checked with > Gary first. Hope I didn't mess anyone up to bad. Won't happen again. > gordy. Forget it, Gordy. No harm done. I wish there was a way to send photos to the list, but it just won't work right now. Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 05:09:46 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:09:46 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] New articles Message-ID: <001e01c0cae2$12d14c60$95904d0c@o3n4f8> Item 1. reference Lt. Glenn Jackson who trained in Ga. and Ok. with Cpt. Charles C. Kegelman RAF Molesworth. 303rd BGA one reference to Kegelman: first US crew to bomb occupied Europe 29 June, '42 Item 2. 11, July, '42 Maj. Kegelman, Ist DSC in 8th AF + DSC to three crew members. Item 3. No record of Jackson (feared lost on mission 4, Apr. '42) did not particiate in mission. Item 4. exerpt from article recovered: ..." Jacksons' wife, a resident of Austin, had Mrs. Kegelman as her guest. when news of the raid became known in the United States Sunday..." If any family member of either Glenn Jackson, or Charles Kegelman has an interest in this news clipping, please contact me. If , in lieu of family interest, any crew member, friend of either man, or party with a bona fide interest in obtaining it, please contact me: palidin@worldnet.att.net. (the item mentioned is not being offered "for sale" , it will be happily donated to anyone who has a legitimate interest. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 16:20:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:20:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape References: <001801c0cad1$5fe08860$37bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <007601c0cb3f$d42a6420$c8b34d0c@o3n4f8> See, there REALLY is a Molesworth tape. Incidently, does anyone know approximately where the several of these tapes are as of Sunday 4-21-01? Please let me know. palidin@worldnet.att.net. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Paulk To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 10:10 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape > Molesworth tape----in last part of film it shows a large house with croquet > court and swimming pool.a churc and town in the back ground. Is this the > Lord ??? mansion that he truned over to a hospital --or was it for R & R???? From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 19:30:14 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:30:14 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape Message-ID: lloyd, i got it yesterday. viewed very graciously appreciative and facinated that light was so vivid in colors. was this done in 8 milimeter and then to video or was it early video camera in '42? now, bill owen sent to me. he says it is to go to margaret hellesheim, but i need her snail mail address from you. so ,promptly send and i will mail tomorrow. again thanks for this and alkso for your involvement with all things good for our association. best wishes. spec ibspec@aol.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 20:32:55 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:32:55 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010422093255.0090ca50@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd, Is it still possible to get on the list for the Molesworth tape? If so, I would like to be included. Jim Walling P.O. Box 1299 Kailua-Kona, Hawaii 86745 jimwall@ilhawaii.net At 02:30 PM 4/22/01 EDT, you wrote: >lloyd, i got it yesterday. viewed very graciously appreciative and facinated >that light was so vivid in colors. was this done in 8 milimeter and then to >video or was it early video camera in '42? now, bill owen sent to me. he says >it is to go to margaret hellesheim, but i need her snail mail address from >you. so ,promptly send and i will mail tomorrow. again thanks for this and >alkso for your involvement with all things good for our association. best >wishes. spec ibspec@aol.com > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 21:05:44 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:05:44 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape References: <3.0.5.32.20010422093255.0090ca50@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0cb67$9e810720$96194e0c@o3n4f8> JIM, YOURE ON THE LIST. WILL LET YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE IN THE LINE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.. LLOYD GRANT. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Walling To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape > Lloyd, > > Is it still possible to get on the list for the Molesworth tape? If so, I would like to be included. > > Jim Walling > P.O. Box 1299 > Kailua-Kona, Hawaii 86745 > jimwall@ilhawaii.net > > > > > At 02:30 PM 4/22/01 EDT, you wrote: > >lloyd, i got it yesterday. viewed very graciously appreciative and facinated > >that light was so vivid in colors. was this done in 8 milimeter and then to > >video or was it early video camera in '42? now, bill owen sent to me. he says > >it is to go to margaret hellesheim, but i need her snail mail address from > >you. so ,promptly send and i will mail tomorrow. again thanks for this and > >alkso for your involvement with all things good for our association. best > >wishes. spec ibspec@aol.com > > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 21:47:06 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:47:06 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B85@NER-MSG06> > I was lucky enough to attend the rollout ceremony at Dover Delaware for > Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby. It was a memorable day I will always remember. A > large crowd stood semi-circle in front of a huge hanger where the > restoration had taken place. As the huge hanger doors were rolled back the > USAF band marched out and behind them into the bright sun rolled the > Combat Veteran B-17G as it was pushed slowly by a tow tug. You could > literally feel the emotion from the crowd as the band stopped and the > Fortress sat in the early morning sunshine on the ramp, only the sounds of > birds chirping. No one spoke as there in front of them sat a mirage from > 45 years ago! The restoration brought the A/C back to mission readiness as > the USAAF would have expected it in 1944. > There were speeches and stories about what took place in regards the > combat record and post war use and recovery of the "Baby", but when the > surviving 91st BG veterans who flew her gathered under her nose for a Crew > again... the restoration was now complete! > > > Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 22 23:22:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:22:54 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B85@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <000701c0cb7a$c838fb00$17914d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you for sharing the story, Todd. Well told. ( note: the original name was "Shoo Shoo Baby" another crew added the third "Shoo"). She didn't fly with the 303rd, but she was made out of the same metal, and flown by the same kind of brave, intelligent young men as we are privileged to know here. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hollritt, Todd To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:47 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby > > I was lucky enough to attend the rollout ceremony at Dover Delaware for > > Shoo Shoo (Shoo) Baby. It was a memorable day I will always remember. A > > large crowd stood semi-circle in front of a huge hanger where the > > restoration had taken place. As the huge hanger doors were rolled back the > > USAF band marched out and behind them into the bright sun rolled the > > Combat Veteran B-17G as it was pushed slowly by a tow tug. You could > > literally feel the emotion from the crowd as the band stopped and the > > Fortress sat in the early morning sunshine on the ramp, only the sounds of > > birds chirping. No one spoke as there in front of them sat a mirage from > > 45 years ago! The restoration brought the A/C back to mission readiness as > > the USAAF would have expected it in 1944. > > There were speeches and stories about what took place in regards the > > combat record and post war use and recovery of the "Baby", but when the > > surviving 91st BG veterans who flew her gathered under her nose for a Crew > > again... the restoration was now complete! > > > > > > Todd- > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 00:27:13 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:27:13 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010422093255.0090ca50@ilhawaii.net> References: Message-ID: > Lloyd, > > Is it still possible to get on the list for the Molesworth tape? If so,....... Lloyd... would it be possible for you to post a list of who is on the list? I never got any confirmation that I was on the list. Perhaps others are in the same boat. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 01:21:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:21:00 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape References: Message-ID: <004701c0cb8b$47abada0$17914d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, you have been on the list since early on, but I am glad you wrote as I would be glad of a confirmation of your address. I have it as: RR#2 Box 1121, Marr Rd. Sweden, Harrison, Me. (Maine, right?) 04040. (Marr Rd. Sweden... has me a bit confused, and brother, that aint hard to do these days). Just to be on the safe side, resend your address, ok. palidin@worldnet.att.net. Here's the low down on the three tapes circulating as of 4/21/01: The ( A ) tape is being sent to Louis Grandwilliams in NY. Spec is sending it out Mon. fm Virginia. This will be the N.E. tape. The ( B ) tape, Gary's, is on its way to Austin , Tx. fm W. Maher to B. Dallas ( this should be the last stop in Texas ). I was planning to have this tape sent back to Florida to one of the five or more people here who have asked to see it. The ( C ) tape, the extra that Don threw in, is supposed to be in Oklahoma with Tom Mays. I haven't heard from Tom yet so I don't know the status on that tape. This tape I scheduled for the Western States and Hawaii. It is looking like about somewhere between three to five days ( or more) for the tape to transit. I suppose this depends on how many Commanches are chasing the Pony Express rider on any given week. Don't give up: it is , like the "check", in the mail. Any one that is not sure of being on the list , please feel free to confirm with me. The list has gotten too long to type out. Very best to everyone. Lloyd. ---- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] waist windows - tape > > > Lloyd, > > > > Is it still possible to get on the list for the Molesworth tape? If so,....... > > Lloyd... would it be possible for you to post a list of who is on the > list? I never got any confirmation that I was on the list. Perhaps > others are in the same boat. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 17:27:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:27:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd Article Message-ID: <007e01c0cc12$3acc0260$05904d0c@o3n4f8> Did anyone know 1st Lt. H.E. Miller (nav.)? Stockton was my dads' pilot. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 22:39:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:39:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Molesworth tape list. Message-ID: <003f01c0cc3d$db160a60$70904d0c@o3n4f8> Concise and to the point, hopefully. > From: Lloyd J Grant > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Here is a list of the folks anticipating the arrival of the Molesworth tape, and those who have seen it: want to: Arizona--- Robert Kerr California--- Dick Smith Charles and Sharon Jaehne,Humphrey O'Leary , Bob Rettinhouse , W.W. Lee Florida--- Bob Hand, Anne Grant Fred Reichmann Hawaii--- Jim Walling Illinois--- Jay Primavera Maine--- Bill Jones Michigan---James Phillips New Jersey--- Todd Hollritt Pennsylvania--- Edward Frank Utah--- Bill Hoyt Have: Bill Owen, Tx , Spec, Vir. Bill > > Bergeron, Tx. William Maher,Jr., Tx , Bill Dallas, > Tx. Maurice Paulk, Neb., Tom Mays, Okla. Anyone who has signed up to see the tape, but who does not see their names listed here should contact me, > palidin@worldnet.att.net > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 23:18:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Hollritt, Todd) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:18:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend Message-ID: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B8A@NER-MSG06> > Attention all 303rd Veterans within driving distance of Reading Pa. > Airfield (A former B-24 modification base). Try to attend the WW II > Weekend sponsored by the Midlantic Air Museum on June 8 through 10. They > literally turn the airbase into a living Museum and active USAAF/USN > airfield. Including American and German encampment's (Yes real live SS > Troops with German Shepherds on patrol) Constant flyovers by WW II A/C > swooping over troops, Jeeps Tanks you name it! This year they plan on > having at least 1 Corsair, 5 B-25's, 5 P51's and 3 B-17's!!! Plus a wide > array of other WW II era aircraft and trainers. Flights are available in > the AT-6's (Around $60.00) and B-17 ($400.00) yeah, yeah "They use to pay > me to fly in it!" That's what Dad always says :) > > Go to http:/www.aafha.org and click on schedule for a link to the MAAM. > My Father is a member of the AAFHA) this NJ based group dedicated to the > Army Air Forces of WW II that displays in the Hanger. Look for him in his > original 303rd uniform! Maybe we could have a mini-reunion under the wing > of a Fortress at a certain time? Talk about Flak...The AAFHA has a real > German 88 shell on display in pre-fragment form. Stands about the waist > high, very intimidating when you see this is what they were firing at you > guys. > > I will by there Saturday I hope, Hanging near the Officers Club most > likely awaiting the Jap Zero's to attack. Yes they have everything > there... including a Hanger Dance at night, I wonder if they send out the > 6X6's for the local girls??? > > Todd- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 23 23:54:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:54:29 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend In-Reply-To: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B8A@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: > > Attention all 303rd Veterans within driving distance of Reading Pa. > > Airfield (A former B-24 modification base). Try to attend the WW II > > Weekend sponsored by the Midlantic Air Museum on June 8 through 10. They > > literally turn the airbase into a living Museum and active USAAF/USN > > airfield. Including American and German encampment's (Yes real live SS > > Troops with German Shepherds on patrol) Constant flyovers by WW II A/C > > swooping over troops, Jeeps Tanks you name it! This year they plan on > > having at least 1 Corsair, 5 B-25's, 5 P51's and 3 B-17's!!! Plus a wide > > array of other WW II era aircraft and trainers. That sounds similar (but bigger) to a show I saw at Frederick Md last year, although they only had one B-17 (I think it was CAF Sentimental Journey). It was pretty neat though, with pyrotechnics going off to simulate bombs dropping, and a bunch of German soldiers on bicycles being chased by American troops. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 03:57:30 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:57:30 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: Molesworth tape list Message-ID: <001201c0cc6a$4ee67660$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> A page was lost... ( not Jakes' fault). Let me know , friends. Thanks Mike. I remembered your name, but had no way to contact you. > Hi Lloyd: > My name isn't on your list altho I sent you my request > several weeks ago and you acknowledged on 4/06/01. If you can get me back on > the list I'd appreciate it. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 04:04:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:04:32 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend References: Message-ID: <002a01c0cc6b$4a8e9880$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> Bill, I hope to bejesus you take a decent camera with you. I can't be there, but I sure as heck wish I could. LG. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jones To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend > > > > Attention all 303rd Veterans within driving distance of Reading Pa. > > > Airfield (A former B-24 modification base). Try to attend the WW II > > > Weekend sponsored by the Midlantic Air Museum on June 8 through 10. They > > > literally turn the airbase into a living Museum and active USAAF/USN > > > airfield. Including American and German encampment's (Yes real live SS > > > Troops with German Shepherds on patrol) Constant flyovers by WW II A/C > > > swooping over troops, Jeeps Tanks you name it! This year they plan on > > > having at least 1 Corsair, 5 B-25's, 5 P51's and 3 B-17's!!! Plus a wide > > > array of other WW II era aircraft and trainers. > > That sounds similar (but bigger) to a show I saw at Frederick Md > last year, although they only had one B-17 (I think it was CAF > Sentimental Journey). It was pretty neat though, with pyrotechnics > going off to simulate bombs dropping, and a bunch of German > soldiers on bicycles being chased by American troops. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 04:13:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:13:22 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] minutia Message-ID: <003601c0cc6c$85e3b180$9f904d0c@o3n4f8> After training and prior to overseas posting where did you go? Is it true that aircraft commanders (pilots) interviewed and selected individual crew members from a pool of trained officers and NCO's? ( the frame of this question is in the periods from 1942-1943). Thanks for (ALL) responses. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 17:36:16 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:36:16 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Reading Pa. WW II Weekend In-Reply-To: References: <1F494A0E3B54D2118A9200805FFE8AF8016E5B8A@NER-MSG06> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010424123401.00aa1100@home.1usa.com> >Bill, are going to attend the Reading Show? I live in Reading and I would >like to meet up with you while your are here. Ed Frank Reading,PA. > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 20:25:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:25:27 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video Message-ID: <41.a8049da.28172d27@aol.com> --part1_41.a8049da.28172d27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The video sequence is as follows: 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and flew to Kellogg, Field 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained their new B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had the nose painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 Oct. They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick Scotland arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) 29:12 End of tape B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. Crew Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- (91st BG B-17) Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew (aka Yahoodi) Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet been named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video ----------------------------------------------------------- At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew ----- 41-24535?? ? -R Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew ----------------------------------------------------- Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_41.a8049da.28172d27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The video sequence is as follows:
0:00      Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan
            The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and
flew
             to Kellogg, Field
             358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS
             04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942.
             It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained
their new
             B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had
the nose
             painted.  The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows:
             358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03
Oct.
             They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick
Scotland
              arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November.
05:41     B-17's in flight (At Molesworth)
09:40     Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth
10:18     Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground
11:14     Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off
13:51     Take off from Molesworth and in flight
15:15     303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation)
19:08     Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F)
20:42     Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations)
29:12     End of tape

B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance)
At Kellogg  Field, Battle, Creek, MI
Thumper                  41-24579     360-F    2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew
Hunga Dunga           41-24558     358-F    1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew
Garbage                  41-24563     360-H    2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew
Zombie                    41-24566     359-W   1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew
Jerry Jinx                 42-24607     427-W    1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew   
Sky Wolf                 42-24562     358-A    2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew
Thumper                  41-24579     360-H   2Lt John E. Castle Crew
Idaho Potato Peeler  41-24580     359-P   1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew
Hell Cat                   41-24580     358-C   1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew
The '8' Ball               41-24581     359-O   Capt William R. Calhoun Crew
The Duchess            41-24561    359-T    1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew
One O'Clock Jump    41-24562    358-G    1Lt William N. Frost Crew
The Devil Himself      42-24612     427-R    1Lt Ralph S. Hayes       
Bad Check               41-24587    427-P    Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr.
Crew
Delta Rebel No 2      42-5077      323-OR-T     -----
      (91st BG B-17)
Knockout Dropper     41-24605    359-R    1Lt Jack Roller Crew    
Lady Fairweather      41-24568     359-U    1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew
The Green Hornet     41-24603     359-Y    1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew
  (aka Yahoodi)
Leapin Liz                41-24526     358-J    2Lt James B. Clark Crew

      Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron
                  except 360th BS which only had eight.  Many had not yet
been
                  named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted.
                  19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video
-----------------------------------------------------------
At Molesworth -  Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA
Garbage                  41-24563     360-H    2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew
The '8' Ball               41-24581     359-Q   Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew
-----                         41-24535??   ?  -R   
Hunga Dunga          41-24588      358-F    1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew
-----------------------------------------------------

Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_41.a8049da.28172d27_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Tue Apr 24 21:05:45 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:05:45 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video References: <41.a8049da.28172d27@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501c0ccf9$f386e1c0$ccb34d0c@o3n4f8> Thank you very much , sir. This information is a very big help for all. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video > The video sequence is as follows: > 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan > The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and > flew > to Kellogg, Field > 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS > 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. > It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained > their new > B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had > the nose > painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: > 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 > Oct. > They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick > Scotland > arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. > 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) > 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth > 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground > 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off > 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight > 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) > 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) > 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) > 29:12 End of tape > > B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) > At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI > Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew > Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew > Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew > Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew > Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew > Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew > Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew > The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew > One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew > The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes > Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. > Crew > Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- > (91st BG B-17) > Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew > Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew > The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew > (aka Yahoodi) > Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew > > Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron > except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet > been > named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. > 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video > ----------------------------------------------------------- > At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew > ----- 41-24535?? ? -R > Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 25 03:57:47 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:57:47 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] German bombing Message-ID: <001c01c0cd33$833b4660$9a1b4e0c@o3n4f8> After the Battle of Britain was won by the RAF were there any German raids launched against Allied bases in England? If so, what effect did they have? Thank you. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Wed Apr 25 22:00:57 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:00:57 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Support for the World War II Memorial Monument Message-ID: <3AE6D899.26.1DAB2E6@localhost> Ed Miller asked that I send this along to you. The article he refers to is here: http://www.pioneerpress.com/opinion/ocl_docs/45690.htm --------- In todays papers across the United States, the well known Marianne Means has an article on the Delays that are being imposed upon the start of the contruction of the World War II Memorial Monument on the Mall in Washington, D.C. She is giving her strong support to "Let's get the construction going, before there are no more World War II veterans around to enjoy it." I suggest that everyone pull out today's editorial page and read her story--and somehow take some action to get the project moving. Ed Miller -------------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 26 12:55:58 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:55:58 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: depends on how you look at it Message-ID: <001301c0ce47$dc8b7220$4c3f22d1@billowen> How about this version? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duke Owen" To: "Bill/Jean Owen" Cc: "Bob/Emma Meyland" Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: FW: depends on how you look at it > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Danny Lee - SWBell [mailto:omni_con@swbell.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:28 PM > To: Duke Owen; Randy Murray Wk; D Colin Lee; Robert C Lee; Bob & Katye Lee; > Tony R Hollins; J. Charles Kelly; Larry & Evelyn Harris; James Grant; Linda > Garrison; Marty Duplissey; John C Caruthers; Wes & Lisa Bonner; Sonny > Bonner; Trey Bonner; Keith Barber; Lindsey & Shcuyler > Subject: depends on how you look at it > > This is an interesting slant. > > > > > > > > > Subject: News brief > > > > > > In an heroic dogfight fought over International waters > > > off the mainland-China coast, a 60's-era > > > American-built Lockheed Electra propeller-airliner, > > > with 24 US Navy passenger/observers aboard, chewed up > > > one of China's finest state-of-the-art supersonic > > > fighter aircraft. > > > > > > The Americans, utilizing the infrequently recorded > > > combat tactic of straight and level flight, often > > > accomplished by relying solely on autopilot, engaged > > > the outmanned single-seat combat jet and knocked it > > > out of the air using only one of its four formidable > > > rotating air-mass propellers. > > > > > > After the action, the crew and passenger/observers > > > diverted to nearby China's Hainan Island Resort for > > > some much-deserved R&R as guests of the Chinese > > > government. > > > > > > Reprinted from the Taiwan Daily Gazette, by > > > staff-writer Won Weng Lo. > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 26 20:37:39 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:37:39 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID Message-ID: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 26 20:50:05 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:50:05 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID In-Reply-To: <000901c0ce88$5c687e80$d38f4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. Tail number 230240 would be 42-30240 , which according to Freeman would have been a 94thBG/410thBS plane called Black Kitten. The 94th BG planes would have been a square A . According to Freeman that plane was lost in June of 43. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Thu Apr 26 23:41:48 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:41:48 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: Message-ID: <000701c0cea2$17068160$10184e0c@o3n4f8> Thank you , Bill. The picture was obviously taken from a plane in a higher squadron. As with most of the pictures I have, there is nothing on the photo, or on the back of it to explain. This is the source I was using:http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/1942_2.html and their was no reference to it. Who is Freeman?Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID > > > I have discovered in a box of surviving memorabilia a B/W gloss photo of > > in pretty sorry shape) a group of B17s flying over an unidentified coast > > line. The only plane in this photo that has identifiable tail numbers looks > > like an F model with tail numbers 230240 atop these no.s is a white square, > > but the group # is faded as to be unidentifiable. It is my understanding > > that the first two numbers generally relate to the year the plane was > > contracted to be built as in 42-----. Can anyone help me figure out what > > plane this might have been? Thanks. L. Grant. > > Tail number 230240 would be 42-30240 , which according to > Freeman would have been a 94thBG/410thBS plane called Black > Kitten. The 94th BG planes would have been a square A . > > According to Freeman that plane was lost in June of 43. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 27 00:41:02 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:41:02 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID In-Reply-To: <000701c0cea2$17068160$10184e0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: > Who is Freeman?Lloyd. Sorry. "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story" by Roger A. Freeman . It lists most of the B-17s showing where they were delivered, what groups they were assigned to, and their fate. It is not always right, but it usually is pretty accurate. A must have book. Freeman also wrote several other books. One of which is "The Mighty Eighth", which among many other things shows the plane markings, such as the square A and triangle C, etc. Interestingly though, it says that the 94thBG didn't start painting square A until July 43, but the plane in your picture apparently had it prior to June 43 when it went down. I guess they started experimenting with the markings before they became official. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Fri Apr 27 02:30:18 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 21:30:18 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] B17 ID References: Message-ID: <000701c0ceb9$9fe48880$d0184e0c@o3n4f8> It is interesting, Bill. My dad had this photo in his stuff. He got there in Sept. of '42. The picture is ravavged and torn, but if I can piece it back together well enough to scan, I will send you a copy. The coast line that the group is crossing over definately does not look like England and it is pretty obvious that the ball turret is manned by it's position. In any case, thank you again for the ID on the plane and the reference lead. I don't have the where-with-all to buy alot of the books that I would like to; nor am I well versed in the reguired research expertise it takes. For this reason I sincerely appreciate the help I get from my friends. Like you, I came to learn about my dad and wound up learning a lot about the whole business. Many thanks. Lloyd. > > > Who is Freeman?Lloyd. it says that the 94thBG didn't start painting square A until > July 43, but the plane in your picture apparently had it prior to June > 43 when it went down. I guess they started experimenting with > the markings before they became official. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 28 19:04:35 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (tmays) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:04:35 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re:Molesworth Tape Message-ID: <005701c0d00d$b3de0c80$e2924794@tmays> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C0CFE3.C65A33E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a copy of the tape that has been ready to go to someone waiting = to see it. I have had no success contacting Paladin for the next one to = rec. it. Gary also sent him a message and I need to get the tape on the = road.=20 Tom Mays------ tmays@starband.net ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C0CFE3.C65A33E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
I have a copy of the tape that has been ready to go to someone = waiting to=20 see it. I have had no success contacting Paladin for the next one to = rec. it.=20 Gary also sent him a message and  I need to get the tape on the = road.=20
Tom Mays------ tmays@starband.net
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C0CFE3.C65A33E0-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 28 19:08:27 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:08:27 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Message-ID: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> Tom Mays. I must have the wrong e-mail address. Please contact me : palidin@worldnet.att.net. Thanks. The "Molesworth" tape is making the rounds pretty well, does anyone know where they are this weekend? Cheers. Lloyd. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sat Apr 28 19:23:52 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:23:52 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: Richard Smith, 790 Crenshaw Dr., Hemet, CA. 92543. ( spider@ivec.net ). I don't know why we are not connecting, Tom. It's weird. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Tom Mays. I must have the wrong e-mail address. Please contact me : > palidin@worldnet.att.net. Thanks. > The "Molesworth" tape is making the rounds pretty well, does anyone know > where they are this weekend? Cheers. Lloyd. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 29 21:56:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:56:54 -0400 Subject: Fw: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video Message-ID: <002001c0d0ee$ee502ec0$08904d0c@o3n4f8> Todd, Harry Goebrecht went to the trouble to research and comment on the Molesworth tape. His comments are included here. Please forward your copy to : Bill Jones, RR#2 Box 1121, Marr Rd., Sweden, Harrison, Me. 04040. (weird address , but Bill swears that it will get to him. Very small town, near a bigger small town.) Bills' e-mail is : wejones@megalink.net . Any thanks credited to the tape belong to Don Kehne (dkehne@umuc.edu )who went above and beyond the call to make it, and make it available. Personally, I am glad that the tape has brought alot of us together that might never have known each other. In other words, it isn't just the tape; it is the mutuality of interests and the comraderie engendered that have given the experience some meaning. I will tell Bill that you are sending the tape. Thank you, Todd. My sincere respects to you and your dad. Stay in touch ! Best, Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd BG(H) Video > The video sequence is as follows: > 0:00 Flight line at Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan > The original Air Echelon departed Biggs Field, El Paso, TX and > flew > to Kellogg, Field > 358th BS 03 Sept 1942, 359th BS 20 August 1942, 360th BS > 04 September 1942 and 427th BS 20 Aug 1942. > It was at Kellogg Field were the Air Echelon Crews obtained > their new > B-17F and where many, but not all, obtained their names and had > the nose > painted. The crews departed Kellogg Field as follows: > 358th BS 12 Oct, 359th BS 03 Oct, 360th BS 13 Oct & 427th BS 03 > Oct. > They then flew to Bangor, Maine, Gander Lake, NE, Prestwick > Scotland > arriving at Molesworth between 21 Oct and 04 November. > 05:41 B-17's in flight (At Molesworth) > 09:40 Landing Patterns in flight prior to landing at Molesworth > 10:18 Molesworth airfield scenes - on the ground > 11:14 Taxi - prior to Molesworth take off > 13:51 Take off from Molesworth and in flight > 15:15 303rd BG(H) B-17's in formation (18 ship formation) > 19:08 Crash landing of #41-24558 "Hunga Dunga" 358th BS (VK-F) > 20:42 Rest Home, Castle & Village scens (Unknown locations) > 29:12 End of tape > > B-17F's in Video (In order of appearance) > At Kellogg Field, Battle, Creek, MI > Thumper 41-24579 360-F 2Lt Joh E. Castle Crew > Hunga Dunga 41-24558 358-F 1Lt Rober J. Nolan Crew > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > Zombie 41-24566 359-W 1Lt Oroville S. Witt Crew > Jerry Jinx 42-24607 427-W 1Lt Ehle S. Reber Crew > Sky Wolf 42-24562 358-A 2Lt Capo H. Morales Crew > Thumper 41-24579 360-H 2Lt John E. Castle Crew > Idaho Potato Peeler 41-24580 359-P 1Lt Ross C. Bales Crew > Hell Cat 41-24580 358-C 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-O Capt William R. Calhoun Crew > The Duchess 41-24561 359-T 1Lt Harold L. Stouse Crew > One O'Clock Jump 41-24562 358-G 1Lt William N. Frost Crew > The Devil Himself 42-24612 427-R 1Lt Ralph S. Hayes > Bad Check 41-24587 427-P Capt Billy B. Southworth, Jr. > Crew > Delta Rebel No 2 42-5077 323-OR-T ----- > (91st BG B-17) > Knockout Dropper 41-24605 359-R 1Lt Jack Roller Crew > Lady Fairweather 41-24568 359-U 1Lt Arthur E. Reddig Crew > The Green Hornet 41-24603 359-Y 1Lt Ellis J. Sanderson Crew > (aka Yahoodi) > Leapin Liz 41-24526 358-J 2Lt James B. Clark Crew > > Note - There were 35 original B-17F's (9 in each Squidron > except 360th BS which only had eight. Many had not yet > been > named at Kellogg Field and/or had had nose art painted. > 19 of the 35 original 303rd BG(H) B-17F's are in the video > ----------------------------------------------------------- > At Molesworth - Sometime before 20 Dec 1942 - when #41-24581 was MIA > Garbage 41-24563 360-H 2Lt Arthur L. Adams Crew > The '8' Ball 41-24581 359-Q Capt William, R. Calhoun Crew > ----- 41-24535?? ? -R > Hunga Dunga 41-24588 358-F 1Lt Robert J. Nolan crew > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 29 23:33:04 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:33:04 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Civilian aircraft watchers? Message-ID: When I look my father's flight plan/weather map for the trip when he flew a B-17 back to the US, I notice that he flew from BW-1 Greenland to Grenier Field, Manchester, NH, and would have come very close to flying right over where I now live in Maine. I often sit here looking out over the mountains, and wonder what it must have been like to see all the B-17s and other planes heading for the ETO, and then coming back. It must have been something to watch. A few days ago, I was talking to a neighbor, who apparently was a teenager back during the war, and he said that he had that very job. He said that he, and other civilians were given training in recognizing planes by showing them flash cards with plane silouets (?sp?). He said that he was given a post on a hill where he could see for a long way, and told to watch out for enemy planes. He never saw one, but he said that he saw lots of B-17s. Did anyone ever hear about such a civilian aircraft watcher system? My family was in Pittsburgh, Pa at the time, ie too far from the coast to bother with such things, plus I was only 2 at the time, but I guess near the coast, that must have been more common. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Sun Apr 29 23:49:22 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:49:22 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <36.15299e74.281df472@aol.com> --part1_36.15299e74.281df472_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to All: Hope you all are well. How long would it take, on average, to travel from the States to England. I know some went in a B-17 and some went by ship. Did more crews fly or go by ship. Thank again. Brooklyn Bill --part1_36.15299e74.281df472_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to All:
   Hope you all are well.  How long would it take, on average, to travel
from the States to England.  I know some went in a B-17 and some went by
ship.  Did more crews fly or go by ship.  Thank again.                        
                     Brooklyn Bill --part1_36.15299e74.281df472_boundary-- From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 00:02:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:02:32 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <4c.1468443c.281df788@aol.com> we flew from hunter field savannah,ga. to drew field in maine, then to goose bay labrador.NOTE> our waist gunner was from brownsville,tx. and had not seen snow plied so high, as was the case there as continually snow plowing the runways to keep open for landings, my crew mate took running start into snow pile believing it to soft and fluffy, but, was frozen solid. so, we remained there for 3 weeks. note: the first female air personnel arrived during that period ,so it was a toiugh weeks and hard to leave. next to iceland and volcanic muck over your flight boots. delayed by weather for two days. lived in quonset huts. won at craps in red cross facility, good food. then flight over ocean tuning into sugar units numbered as we proceeded to valley wales, however, our navigator had us off target and we got very close to france before corrections. had those round coke heaters about 10 inches in diameter. very cold in barracks there, hauled by truck to molesworth. distressed had to leave brand new b 17 there. so , it takes different times to fly to england. oh we dropped down around new york city circling empire state bldg. also, dropped down over long island ,n.y. farm area of pilot. then saw a barn roof explode below us. the triling antenna ball had struck pilot's dad's barn. cheers to all .spec From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 03:14:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Maurice Paulk) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:14:19 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT WATCHERS !!! Message-ID: <000501c0d11b$45d0ae00$48bb9ace@mjpmtman> BILL JONES --VERY DEFINITELY-- It was called GOC- Ground Observation Corps complete with a pair of wings 1 1/2 inchs long. - Still have them! - The enameled circle in the center of the wings had a blue circle with silver letters " GOC" --surrounded by a white background with United States Air Force in it. Below this was a curved blue "bar" with Observer in silver. I moved back home to Wood River in March of "49. and I, as Assistant Scoutmaster was in charge of the boys who acted as observers. The manual we got has dissapperared in the mists of time. We "observed" from the roof of the City Office and Fire Station. I seems to me we had a "pratice run" once a month. If memory serves me correctly once or twice we were called upon to report by telephone the aircraft we saw even though they were usually mail and passenger planes. I'm not sure but I think we reported to Lincoln Nebraska by telephone.. How long this continued I don't remember. If memory serves me correctly the change from USAAF to USAF came in 1947 - In 1949 when I got my discharge from the Nebraska National Air guards in March. The first of May they were shipped to Bango Maine for active duty. as instructors with F-8 Shooting Stars. We were an Observation outfit.. They were just starting to issue The Air Force Blue uniforms. DONE IT AGAIN - TALKED TOO MUCH CARRY ON !! Maurice Paulk From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 01:49:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:49:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) References: <4c.1468443c.281df788@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c0d10f$6fca08c0$e4194e0c@o3n4f8> Good story, Spec. Thank you. Lloyd. > we flew from hunter field savannah,ga. to drew ... From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 02:16:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:16:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT WATCHERS !!! References: <000501c0d11b$45d0ae00$48bb9ace@mjpmtman> Message-ID: <003b01c0d113$31829880$e4194e0c@o3n4f8> You can NEVER talk too much, Mtn. Man, nor can anyone of you ever talk to much. Every story, every remembrance, is a page treasured. Thank you. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Paulk" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT WATCHERS !!! > BILL JONES --VERY DEFINITELY-- It was called GOC- Ground Observation Corps > complete with a pair of wings 1 1/2 inchs long. - Still have them! - The > enameled circle in the center of the wings had a blue circle with silver > letters " GOC" --surrounded by a white background with United States Air > Force in it. Below this was a curved blue "bar" with Observer in silver. I > moved back home to Wood River in March of "49. and I, as Assistant > Scoutmaster was in charge of the boys who acted as observers. The manual we > got has dissapperared in the mists of time. We "observed" from the roof of > the City Office and Fire Station. I seems to me we had a "pratice run" once > a month. If memory serves me correctly once or twice we were called upon > to report by telephone the aircraft we saw even though they were usually > mail and passenger planes. I'm not sure but I think we reported to Lincoln > Nebraska by telephone.. How long this continued I don't remember. > > If memory serves me correctly the change from USAAF to USAF came in 1947 - > In 1949 when I got my discharge from the Nebraska National Air guards in > March. The first of May they were shipped to Bango Maine for active duty. > as instructors with F-8 Shooting Stars. We were an Observation outfit.. They > were just starting to issue The Air Force Blue uniforms. > > DONE IT AGAIN - TALKED TOO MUCH > > CARRY ON !! > > Maurice Paulk > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 04:48:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:48:03 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: <001101c0d128$5cf2ffe0$86b34d0c@o3n4f8> If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage at approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots and the quality of training all crew members recieved? Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 07:09:19 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Chuck Golden) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. Message-ID: <20010430060919.30589.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Gentlemen, I've been watching all the correspondence about "the tape" making the rounds. As I understand, there is only one copy of it. If you want, I have the equipment to make as many copies of it as you wish. Moreover, I'd be willing to make ten copies of it out of my own pocket (blank tapes are cheap). If you all want me to do this, thereby making the distribution that much easier, I'd be delighted to do so. [as a personal reference to my veracity and trustworthiness - i.e. "he ain't gonna just steal the tape is he?" - I offer Brian McGuire at Molesworth. He knows me well.] Let me know, Chuck Golden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 13:40:43 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:40:43 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. Message-ID: >From my trusty, crusty log book...travel time fro Lincoln Nebr. to Valley, Wales: Aircraft # B-17G - 338737 (Anybody know the fate of this wonderful machine) Depart Lincoln, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 9 min. 9/26/44 Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Goose Bay, Labrador.........5 hrs, 15 min. 9/27/44 Depart Goose Bay, Lab.,Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 37 min. 9/28/44 Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Valley Wales...........5 hrs, 33 min. 9/29/44 Total flying time 26:24 As I recall, this was a wonderful trip for a bunch of kids. Cheers, Bob Hand From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 14:25:29 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:25:29 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam Message-ID: Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails sent to the 303rd chat group forum? I get probably ten per day from smut to "How to Reduce Your Interest Rate 0of Your Credit Card." I only use this mailbox for 303rd chat. Gary, is there any way to prevent these critons from Spamming us? Kevin >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:40:43 EDT > >From my trusty, crusty log book...travel time fro Lincoln Nebr. to Valley, >Wales: > >Aircraft # B-17G - 338737 (Anybody know the fate of this wonderful >machine) > >Depart Lincoln, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 9 min. >9/26/44 >Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Goose Bay, Labrador.........5 hrs, 15 min. >9/27/44 >Depart Goose Bay, Lab.,Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 37 min. >9/28/44 >Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Valley Wales...........5 hrs, 33 min. >9/29/44 > >Total flying time 26:24 As I recall, this was a wonderful trip for a >bunch >of kids. >Cheers, Bob Hand > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 14:31:03 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:31:03 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables Message-ID: Lloyd: We have a "good ol' boy" crew chief living in Kansas City and I had the same discussion with him about a year ago. He told me there were redundant control cables on the Forts, that there were back up control cables for just such emergencies. Just how they were routed and where the were, I do not know. I know that emergency repairs were made on the control cables, but do not know if there were kits on board for such situations. The B-24 had hydraulic flight controls, right guys? And when they were hit, it was like trying to steer a Mack Truck with no power steering assist. I heard this was another reason why pilots preferred the B-17. Do I have the correct "dope" on this issue, and I'm not referring to illegal drugs...... Kevin >From: "Lloyd J Grant" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> >Subject: [303rd-Talk] Control cables >Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:48:03 -0400 > >If memory serves me, very thin cables ran down the length of the fuselage >at >approximately shoulder height. Since the B17 controls were not hydraulic I >will assume that these cables were connected to the workings of the epanage >of the aircraft. I have seen photos of incredible damage to the tail >sections of the B17, and yet the plane made it home. Were there tools and >equipment aboard ( in addition to everything else) that could render an "in >flight" repair of these cables feasible, OR, did it all rely on the >incredible design features of the Fort, and the awesome skill of her pilots >and the quality of training all crew members recieved? >Once again, I thank everyone who responds. ( but, this time, I will shut >up and LISTEN ). L. Grant. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 14:40:49 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Jones) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30 Apr 01, at 8:25, Kevin Pearson wrote: > Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails sent to > the 303rd chat group forum? I get probably ten per day from smut to "How to > Reduce Your Interest Rate 0of Your Credit Card." I only use this mailbox > for 303rd chat. I get a similar number of similar spam messages. However I belong to a dozen or more mailing lists, so I can't tell which ones are causing it. I've assumed it was coming from two other groups, since each time I post to either of those groups, the volume of spam messages increases. I never thought that spammers would watch this group. Too bad. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * ***************************************************************** From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 14:43:32 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:43:32 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Airplane Silhouette Cards Message-ID: Bill: you mention these cards in your e-mail. You can buy these reproductions at almost any air museum. They are playing cards with aircraft silhouettes on the back. I got mine at Duxford, buty I think you can order them from the PX at the Mighty Eighth Air Force Heritage Museum - 912-748-8888. There are aircraft from the US, England, Raussia, Germany, Italy and Japan. Cost - about $6. I liked mine so much I had several of my favorites framed on green matting. Quite impressive and they have drawn many comments. Kevin >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Civilian aircraft watchers? >Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:33:04 -0400 > > > When I look my father's flight plan/weather map for the trip when >he flew a B-17 back to the US, I notice that he flew from BW-1 >Greenland to Grenier Field, Manchester, NH, and would have come >very close to flying right over where I now live in Maine. I often sit >here looking out over the mountains, and wonder what it must have >been like to see all the B-17s and other planes heading for the >ETO, and then coming back. It must have been something to >watch. > A few days ago, I was talking to a neighbor, who apparently was >a teenager back during the war, and he said that he had that very >job. He said that he, and other civilians were given training in >recognizing planes by showing them flash cards with plane silouets >(?sp?). He said that he was given a post on a hill where he could >see for a long way, and told to watch out for enemy planes. He >never saw one, but he said that he saw lots of B-17s. > Did anyone ever hear about such a civilian aircraft watcher >system? My family was in Pittsburgh, Pa at the time, ie too far >from the coast to bother with such things, plus I was only 2 at the >time, but I guess near the coast, that must have been more >common. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 14:48:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Kevin Pearson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:48:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Hey BB: I think you might be wrong, Brooklyn Bill, about more going by air than by ship. Keep in mind the ground echelon went by ship in most cases and far outnumbered the air echelon. Ok, ok, small point, but one worth remembering. Kevin >From: WDK19@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) >Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:49:22 EDT > >Hi to All: > Hope you all are well. How long would it take, on average, to travel >from the States to England. I know some went in a B-17 and some went by >ship. Did more crews fly or go by ship. Thank again. > Brooklyn Bill _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 15:04:01 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:04:01 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. References: <20010430060919.30589.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c0d17e$6ba90f60$c68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Chuck, thank you for your very generous offer. There are actually three tapes making the rounds just now and they seem to be moving at a pretty steady pace. I don't see any reason to put you to the trouble. The offer is genuinely appreciated none-the-less. Lloyd Grant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Golden" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 2:09 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. > Gentlemen, > > I've been watching all the correspondence about "the > tape" making the rounds. As I understand, there is > only one copy of it. If you want, I have the > equipment to make as many copies of it as you wish. > Moreover, I'd be willing to make ten copies of it out > of my own pocket (blank tapes are cheap). If you all > want me to do this, thereby making the distribution > that much easier, I'd be delighted to do so. [as a > personal reference to my veracity and trustworthiness > - i.e. "he ain't gonna just steal the tape is he?" - I > offer Brian McGuire at Molesworth. He knows me well.] > > Let me know, > Chuck Golden > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 15:16:15 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:16:15 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam References: Message-ID: <001b01c0d180$1f98caa0$c68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Kevin, I honestly don't think that the 303rd ring is the source of your spam woes. I think you are required to be a member of the association to gain access to this forum. lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Spam > > > On 30 Apr 01, at 8:25, Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails sent to > > the 303rd chat group forum? I get probably ten per day from smut to "How to > > Reduce Your Interest Rate 0of Your Credit Card." I only use this mailbox > > for 303rd chat. > > I get a similar number of similar spam messages. However I > belong to a dozen or more mailing lists, so I can't tell which ones > are causing it. I've assumed it was coming from two other groups, > since each time I post to either of those groups, the volume of > spam messages increases. I never thought that spammers would > watch this group. Too bad. > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > ***************************************************************** > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 16:22:28 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Edward L Frank) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:22:28 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010430111704.00a95a90@home.1usa.com> At 08:25 AM 4/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails sent >to the 303rd chat group forum? > > > >To Kevin, I have never got any spam and I have been on this group since it started. The server that I have, 1USA.COM, tell me they can block so I do not receive any. They also block Virus attacks. Ed. Frank. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 18:18:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (pfico) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:18:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while your tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of viewers please? Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J Grant > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 18:44:00 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Ed Lamme) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:44:00 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] transit to UK Message-ID: <005101c0d19d$3616abe0$a52664d8@computer> Have noticed exchanges regarding transit time to England. In October 42 our crew was formed at Geiger Field Spokane and ater further training at Casper, Wyo in December 43 (lovely winter weather) and Salina KS went to Homestead FL for deployment overseas. There were six crews and we were given new B17 F models. My crew was A. C. Strickland and another I remember was George Stallings. We left in February 43, I don't remember the date and flew to Trinidad, Dutch Guiana, Natal, Brazil, Ascension Island, Dakar and Marrakech, Morocco. Our ship developed engine trouble and we were forced to land at Tindouf which was in the Sahara. It was a French Foreign Legion Camel Corps post at this oasis, but they were up north fighting in Tunisia. After threedays, we flew on to Marrakech and thence around the Iberian Peninsula landing at an RAF base at Torquay, on Lands End, thence on to reception center at Bovingdon and then assignment to 427th along with Stallings who went to 368th I believe. Total transit time from Florida to the UK for us was 12 days. As to control cables. The autopilot had servo motors which were situated near the surfaces they controlled. Rudder and elevator motors were near tail of the ship and aileron motor on the F model was in front part. There were instances where the regular control cables were shot out and plane returned with use of the autopilot control for particular surface shot out. If I remember correctly, there were two sets of cables fromthe controls, but I may be wrong I do know there were shorter cables from the servo motors to the cables controlling the other surfaces. I don't know how other crews came to their names, but ours was pretty simple. it was #392, Stric Nine. We actually named the ship "Stricks Nine" as our pilots nickname was Strick, but the artist who painted the name and the skull & crossbones, for some reason deleted the k and s. Ed Lamme' Bombardier From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 18:34:20 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Jim Walling) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:34:20 -1000 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. In-Reply-To: <000701c0d17e$6ba90f60$c68e4d0c@o3n4f8> References: <20010430060919.30589.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010430073420.0096aaf0@ilhawaii.net> Lloyd, I should mention that regular parcel post or fourth class mail usually takes 4-6 weeks to get to Hawaii, so when the tape is sent to me it should be sent by priority mail which costs about $4. I will be glad to reimburse the person sending it for the postage and I will return it priority. Best regards, Jim Walling At 10:04 AM 4/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >Chuck, thank you for your very generous offer. There are actually three >tapes making the rounds just now and they seem to be moving at a pretty >steady pace. I don't see any reason to put you to the trouble. The offer >is genuinely appreciated none-the-less. Lloyd Grant. From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 19:17:36 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:17:36 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth References: <007c01c0d00e$3aa3b260$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <00a201c0d010$620c47c0$78904d0c@o3n4f8> <001301c0d199$91b47c60$e2604dd1@net> Message-ID: <001a01c0d1a1$d6c8d640$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Richard, consider it done. "Spider" Dick Smith should be the first California recipient. There are eight folks on the California list to date including you . If the list keeps growing we may have to take Chuck's offer into consideration. Hang in. Regards. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "pfico" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth > Lloyd - I thought I might as well throw my request into the ring while your > tape is out here in Calif. If I may, will you add my name to your list of > viewers please? > > Richard Young, P.O. Box 858, Grass Valley, CA 95945 > > Regards > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lloyd J Grant > > > > Tom, if you get this, please forward your tape to: > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 22:14:24 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Gary Moncur) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:14:24 -0700 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3AED7340.26335.155511@localhost> > Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails > sent to the 303rd chat group forum? I get probably ten per day from > smut to "How to Reduce Your Interest Rate 0of Your Credit Card." I > only use this mailbox for 303rd chat. Gary, is there any way to > prevent these critons from Spamming us? No one who is not a list member has access to the email addresses of list members. Only members can post to the list, view the archives and see the member list. If someone is getting the list member addresses for spam purposes, he must also be a list member. It seems like quite a stretch to join a list with 130 members to harvest email addresses when there are millions in plain view all over the web. I have found no way to stop spam and I get a ton. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 22:32:56 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Moofy) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:32:56 +0100 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bob re 43-38737 Message-ID: <006101c0d1bd$1fbd55e0$fd247ad5@n0i6c5> Bob according to the book 'Heavy Bombers of the Mighty Eighth', 43-38737 went to the 305thBG and survived the war, she ended up at Kingman, Arizona by 10.01.46. Cheers Moofy (Yvonne)UK From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 21:19:31 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Lloyd J Grant) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:19:31 -0400 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. References: <20010430060919.30589.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.5.32.20010430073420.0096aaf0@ilhawaii.net> Message-ID: <005601c0d1b4$6a4b1d80$d81b4e0c@o3n4f8> Jim, there are three tapes in circulation. The one that is currently in California is probably the one that will be sent to you. ( if anyone is planning a vacation in Hawaii this year let us know ). There are currently about eight people on the California list. Dick Smith is the current addressee. If we can figure out a way to beat the Post Office out of the shipping charges, we will. Four bucks won't bankrupt me ( it may come close :-). If I can get another tape into the pipe line, I will send it directly to you and you can mail it back to one of the five or six people here in Florida who are waiting patiently for one of the tapes to come back home. my server won't connect to your e-mail address--that's what you get for $7.00 a month-- so , I will keep in touch via the 303rd connection. Best. Lloyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Walling" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Copies of the Molesworth tape. > Lloyd, > > I should mention that regular parcel post or fourth class mail usually takes 4-6 weeks to get to Hawaii, so when the tape is sent to me it should be sent by priority mail which costs about $4. I will be glad to reimburse the person sending it for the postage and I will return it priority. > > Best regards, Jim Walling > > > At 10:04 AM 4/30/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Chuck, thank you for your very generous offer. There are actually three > >tapes making the rounds just now and they seem to be moving at a pretty > >steady pace. I don't see any reason to put you to the trouble. The offer > >is genuinely appreciated none-the-less. Lloyd Grant. > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 22:41:51 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (Bill Owen) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:41:51 -0500 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Spam References: <001b01c0d180$1f98caa0$c68e4d0c@o3n4f8> Message-ID: <000901c0d1be$5f3b7f20$5b3f22d1@billowen> I agree with Lloyd. I'm not receiving any thru the 303rd. Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd J Grant" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Spam > Kevin, I honestly don't think that the 303rd ring is the source of your spam > woes. I think you are required to be a member of the association to gain > access to this forum. lloyd. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jones" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Spam > > > > > > > > On 30 Apr 01, at 8:25, Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > > > Is anyone else getting large volumes of Spam as a result of e-mails sent > to > > > the 303rd chat group forum? I get probably ten per day from smut to > "How to > > > Reduce Your Interest Rate 0of Your Credit Card." I only use this > mailbox > > > for 303rd chat. > > > > I get a similar number of similar spam messages. However I > > belong to a dozen or more mailing lists, so I can't tell which ones > > are causing it. I've assumed it was coming from two other groups, > > since each time I post to either of those groups, the volume of > > spam messages increases. I never thought that spammers would > > watch this group. Too bad. > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > > * wejones@megalink.net * > > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > > From 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Mon Apr 30 23:39:54 2001 From: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com (303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:39:54 EDT Subject: [303rd-Talk] Transatlantic crossing Message-ID: <54.13c0cf3c.281f43ba@aol.com> More "how we got to England."=20 Perusal of my records shows travel time from Kearny, Nebr. to Prestwick,=20 Scotland: B-17G -Aircraft # 42-97238 (Wonder what it's ultimate fate was?) 3/11/44 - Depart Kearny, arrive Grenier Field, Manchester, NH.....7 hrs, 50=20 min. =20 3/21/44 - Depart Grenier Field, Arrive Presque Isle, ME AFB.........2 hrs, 2= 0=20 min. =20 3/22/44 - Depart Presque Isle, Arrive Goose Bay, Lab=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.4 hrs, 35 min. 3/24/44 - Depart Goose Bay, Lab. Arrive Meeks Field, Iceland.......8 hrs, 30= =20 min. =20 3/26/44 - Depart Meeks Field, Iceland, Arrive Prestwick, Scot........6 hrs,=20 35 min. =20 Total flying time: 29:50 (Sure hated to give up that bird!) Note: Our stop in Presque Isle was a result of a "mysterious problem" with=20 our radios. Fact was we just hated to leave the USA, so landed to have=20 "problem" fixed, figuring if they probed enough they would find something.=20 Sure enough, it worked, as they found a nonexistent fault; we RONd there and= =20 departed the next morning=20 Regards, Bob Kerr