From lcoleman@rmci.net Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:31:18 -0600 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:31:18 -0600 From: Loyd Coleman lcoleman@rmci.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs Lloyd Grant; I was a good neigbor of T/Sgt Lee Amos (ROG) on the Stockton Crew until he passed away many years ago. I was a TG on the William Petersen crew but at a later date (Nov 44-April 45. We often talked about our time spent in the 427th. Lee's nephew could probaby give you some info on the crew. I'm sure he has an E-mail address that i can get for you. L coleman From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:14:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:14:35 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs Loyd, thanks for the reply. I have an original crew photo of the "Joe BTSFPLK II" with T/Sgt Amos in it. My dad, Larry Grant died in '85. I was named after Lloyd Shirley, the bombadier. I would like your permission to add your E-Mail address to my list. Again, greatful thanks and very best wishes, Lloyd Grant. Loyd Coleman wrote: > Lloyd Grant; > I was a good neigbor of T/Sgt Lee Amos (ROG) on the > Stockton Crew until he passed away many years ago. > I was a TG on the William Petersen crew but at a later date > (Nov 44-April 45. > We often talked about our time spent in the 427th. > Lee's nephew could probaby give you some info on the crew. > I'm sure he has an E-mail address that i can get for you. > L coleman > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From jody53@webtv.net Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Dyle Davidson jody53@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Talk --WebTV-Mail-9647-568 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Richard ----We are not acquainted but I'll bet our paths have crossed many times. I found a few similarities in your letter of last week that prompted this note. Your pilots name was Richardson, mine was Richeson, you and I arrived at the 303rd at about the same time {within a few days} and we both made that Zossen trip.If my memory serves me correct we made a 360 over the target, right ? I didn't get to visit Poland but I did get to Holland January '45---Ha ! The best to you and the family-- Dyle Davidson 359 / 360th --WebTV-Mail-9647-568 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-9647-568-- From susskind@webtv.net Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:11:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:11:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Talk I remember Zossen! I was the lead navigator and Col. Cole was the pilot. I thought we made three runs over the target. Abut that time I told the bombardier if he made another run over the target I was going to salvo him. outside of that I thought it was a preetty damn good mission.. Hal Susskind From wejones@megalink.net Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:17:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:17:04 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Geographic check points On a few of the maps and documents I have, I see a coded list of cities referred to as Geographic Check Points. For example 3/14/45 L Coblenz O Siegen N Kassel G Brunswick E Hanover V Salzuflen I Gutersloh T Dortmund Y Dummer Lake 3/19/45 L Coblenz O Frankfur G Meininger S Plauen H Chenitz I Leipzig P Dresden M Wurzburg E Nurnburg N Munchen T Stutgart 4/16/45 L Nurenberg O Stuttgart N Munich G Salzburg E Pilzen S Plauen T Regensburg Each of these lists spells a word, ie longevity, logshipment, longest in these cases with the letters down the left side. I am just curious how these things were used. I see these letters drawn on the map to lable a turn point some other point of interest (the actual targets are generally not one of the checkpoints, but alternate targets may be), so I understand that each letter refers to a city, but I can't figure out why they spell out a word each time? Ie it seems as if it is some kind of a memory aid to remember the code, but the list of cities changes each time, so they would have to memorize both the word and the list of towns. I also see no reason to memorize it, since it is written down on the map (perhaps it shouldn't have been?). If not a memory aid, then why have it spell a word, as it would be more random if it didn't. I assume that these letters might be used over the radio to allow them to refer to a geographical location without giving away their location to the enemy, but I just don't quite understand the logic of spelling out a word with the characters. Just Curious ************************************************ *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************************ From nicastro@modex.com Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:34:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:34:18 -0400 From: John J. Nicastro Sr. nicastro@modex.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0144B.9E945D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'M looking for any info on Joseph L.A. Castillo Jr. he was a pilot = assigned to the 358th. during the fall of 44 and early spring 45 we = recieved our commissions on the same day. He promised me a job in California after the war ??? John J.Nicastro 8226 Dalebrook Rd. Independence,Ohio 44131-6600 Tel 216.524.6224 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0144B.9E945D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'M looking for any info on Joseph L.A. Castillo Jr. = he was a=20 pilot assigned to the 358th. during the fall of 44 and early spring 45 = we=20 recieved our commissions on the same day.

He promised me a job in California after the war=20 ???

John J.Nicastro

8226 Dalebrook Rd.

Independence,Ohio 44131-6600

Tel 216.524.6224

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0144B.9E945D80-- From wejones@megalink.net Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:21:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:21:26 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Feb 23 1945 mission ? I've collected narratives on missions that my father was involved from a couple different sources, and I have a question about the Feb 23 1945 mission. According to one narrative, the primary target was supposed to be Zwickau , and the secondary and target of last resort was Crailsheim. According to this narrative, the lead and low squadrons went to Kitzengen (not sure why?), and the high squadron bombed Crailsheim, along with another bomb group. Another narrative says that the high squadron bombed Zwickau, ie the primary target . Yet another source indicates that none of these targets was the primary target, but instead Treuchtlingen was the intended target? I guess that part of my confusion is lack of knowledge of the geography here, but does anyone know what target the high squadron (360th) really hit on this mission? Was it Crailsheim or Zwickau? The bigger question is that how this could have happened? Ie none of the narratives mention the high squadron getting separated from the group, nor do they mention anything like having to abort a run and divert to another target, it just acts like they went to a different target without explanation. Does anyone know what happened on Feb 23? ( This is probably explained in "Might in Flight", but I've still been unsucessfull in finding a copy of this.... if anyone has 2 and wants to sell one, let me know... ). ( I've ordered the CDROM, so hopefully this info might be on that too.) Thanks. ************************************************ *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************************ From Pilot8thAF@aol.com Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:53:43 EDT Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:53:43 EDT From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com Pilot8thAF@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #35 - 1 msg In a message dated 9/5/00 9:07:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: << Re: Mission #321 23 February 1945. All three squadrons bombed a target of opportunity at Kitzingen, Germany Mission was part of "Operation Clarion" to bomb German marshalling yards at medium altitudes. The primary target was Zwickau, Germany ( a 9 1/2 hour mission). At arrival at the Primary the 41st CBW " B' Group [303rd BG(H)] found the target covered by 10.10th cloud and it could not be picked up by PFF. The Lead 359th Squadron started a run oin Bamburg by PFF. Just before bombs away the Bombardiuer and Navigator noticed some breaks in the clouds and decided to pick up a target of opportunity and bomb visually. A visual run was made on a marshalling yard at Kitzingen with excellent result. The low 427th Squadron followed the Lead Squadron and bombed visually at Kitzingen with excellent results. The high 360th BS had trouble anticipating the target to be attacked. They were flying too high above the Group leader and made some navigational errors. The target of opportunity was recognized approximately 60 seconds before bombs away and a normal visual run was made against the target at Kitzingen. The Bombardier made an error in setting his bomb site controls and bombing results were poor with a 3500 foot radial error. 303rd Squadrons bombed from 11,500 (Lead), 11,200 (low) and 12,450 (higjh) foot altitudes. Nine 303rd B-17s landed at alternate airports in Engl;and due to gas shortages. The 41st CBW "A" Group [384th BG(H)] bombed their primary target at Plauen, Germany by PFF through the 10/10th clouds and results could not be observed. The 41st CBW "C" Group [379th BG(H)] was also unable to bomb the primary target and bombed the secondary target visually at Crailsheim, Germany with excellent results. The 379th high group had a premature bomb release due to a Bombardier. error. One B-17 from the 30rd High Squadron dropped his bombs with the 379th BG(H). Due to some takeoff delays and navigational confusion the 303rd 41st CBW "B" Group ended up ahead of the 384th BG(H) 41st CBW "A" due to late departure by the "A" Group and not following the briefed routes. During the bombing run the 303rd "B" Group crossed directly in front of the 384th "A" Group Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association >> From djsmith27@hotmail.com Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:15:42 GMT Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:15:42 GMT From: D.J. Smith djsmith27@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... Greetings from Nashville, TN, My name is D.J. Smith. I'm a 27 year-old graphic designer in Nashville, Tennessee. I have been married for a little over two years to Kathy Smith, the love of my life. I run a one-man design business on the side of my full-time job. I came to your group seeking living history. I had grandfathers that were in the war but I never knew them so I never heard the stories that could have been told now that I am old enought to appreciate them being told. I had the priviledge of meeting Mr. Fred Mitchell, Robert Carpenter, and William Byers all of the 427th. It was my first time to talk to someone who was in the last Great War. I did not get the priviledge, as time sometimes slips by, to learn all there was to learn about these men who served our great country in battle. I have been trying to find out what bird Mr. Mitchell and his crew flew on exactly. I think he told me that they flew on a B-17 that they call Miss Lace, Miss Lacey or Lady Lace. I can't remember. I would like to find some photos of the plane and the men as I now have a soft spot for the men of the 8th Air Force. If there is anyone out there who knew these men and what bird they flew on I would be most appreciative. I am on a search to get other crew members that are still alive and also any other items or stories from you living history books. I salute you and look up to you for your valor and bravery. I don' t know if I could have done what you guys did. I thank you for my freedom and wish I could talk to you personally. Maybe one day. Sincerely, D.J. Smith _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From spider@ivic.net Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:50:03 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:50:03 -0700 From: Dick Smith spider@ivic.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... Hi D.J: This is R.L. Smith nick name "Spider" see Spiders Story on our web page at www.ivic.net/~spider/ Look under Pictures and Maps and you'll find Spiders Story under my picture carrying my Scale Zero . Enjoy Spider ----- Original Message ----- From: "D.J. Smith" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:15 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... > Greetings from Nashville, TN, > > My name is D.J. Smith. I'm a 27 year-old graphic designer in Nashville, > Tennessee. I have been married for a little over two years to Kathy Smith, > the love of my life. I run a one-man design business on the side of my > full-time job. > > I came to your group seeking living history. I had grandfathers that were in > the war but I never knew them so I never heard the stories that could have > been told now that I am old enought to appreciate them being told. I had the > priviledge of meeting Mr. Fred Mitchell, Robert Carpenter, and William Byers > all of the 427th. It was my first time to talk to someone who was in the > last Great War. I did not get the priviledge, as time sometimes slips by, to > learn all there was to learn about these men who served our great country in > battle. I have been trying to find out what bird Mr. Mitchell and his crew > flew on exactly. I think he told me that they flew on a B-17 that they call > Miss Lace, Miss Lacey or Lady Lace. I can't remember. I would like to find > some photos of the plane and the men as I now have a soft spot for the men > of the 8th Air Force. If there is anyone out there who knew these men and > what bird they flew on I would be most appreciative. I am on a search to get > other crew members that are still alive and also any other items or stories > from you living history books. > > I salute you and look up to you for your valor and bravery. I don' t know if > I could have done what you guys did. I thank you for my freedom and wish I > could talk to you personally. Maybe one day. > > Sincerely, > > D.J. Smith > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:37:17 EDT Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:37:17 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... The reason we "did what we did" was (a) we loved our country madly and (b) we were all 18-19-20 years old and took orders without question. Maybe there's a (c) and (d) in there somewhere...who knows. Anyway, for a good idea of what it was like at the 303rd, my book LAST RAID will give you good insight. It details my 35th and last mission to Berlin and has a bunch of other short stories, tragic, sad, hilarious, etc. I'm sorry I didn't know the folks you mentioned....I was operational from Oct.'44 to Feb.'45 and flew with Fink's Crew as bombardier. Oh yes, maps, cartoons, drawings, photos, etc., etc. Sorry about the commerecial, but how else would you know? Good health, good spirits to you and your lovely family. And good luck with your business. Cheers, Bob Hand (Capt.USAF / Ret.) Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From palidin@netzero.net Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:17:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:17:19 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... Bob Hand, please let me know how to get a copy of your book. I don't think the experience of getting shot at is any less fearsome, nor awesome, nor existential at any particular moment, or time than when you are physically there to experience the phenomenon first hand. Thank you for recording your experiences. I look forward to reading the book you wrote about it. Lloyd Grant. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > The reason we "did what we did" was (a) we loved our country madly and (b) we > were all 18-19-20 years old and took orders without question. Maybe > there's a (c) and (d) in there somewhere...who knows. Anyway, for a good > idea of what it was like at the 303rd, my book LAST RAID will give you good > insight. It details my 35th and last mission to Berlin and has a bunch of > other short stories, tragic, sad, hilarious, etc. I'm sorry I didn't know > the folks you mentioned....I was operational from Oct.'44 to Feb.'45 and flew > with Fink's Crew as bombardier. Oh yes, maps, cartoons, drawings, photos, > etc., etc. > Sorry about the commerecial, but how else would you know? > Good health, good spirits to you and your lovely family. And good luck with > your business. > Cheers, Bob Hand (Capt.USAF / Ret.) > > Bob Hand, Sr. > BOB HAND DESIGN > 6197 97TH Ct. South > Boynton Bch., FL 33437 > (561) 731-3382 > Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From spider@ivic.net Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:37:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:37:45 -0700 From: Dick Smith spider@ivic.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Maj. Louis "Mel" Schulstad Hi Greg: Mell used to give me a ride in his Jeep over to the 303rd hospital so I could date a nurse named Betty Fisher. Mel was going with a nurse who I believe he married. After my tour in B17s was completed I volunteered to fly a second tour in P51s with the 1st Scouting Force My Airplane Easy Does It had Spider Painted on one side of the canopy on the other side I painted Betty for that Betty but also for the Betty who I finally married and have been married to for 55 years. Both Betty's thought they were it and who was I to tell them different ! Dick "Spider' Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pierce, Gregory S" To: "'303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Maj. Louis "Mel" Schulstad > > I am the President of the 8th Air Force Historical Society here in > Washington State. We have a great member who hails from the > 303rd BG. Col. (ret) Mel Schulstad. Mel has done a number of > public speaking engagements for our chapter and done a great > job doing them. > > He will be at the Olympia "Wings Over Olympia" Sept 30, 2000. > If anyone knows Mel and wants to share a funny / story about him > that I could use please feel to contact me. > > Mel flew 44 combat mission, many of them as "Lead Crew". > Later became Group Operations Officer. > > Thank you. > > Greg Pierce > > gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com > 206-662-5744 > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:04:49 EDT Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:04:49 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing... Greetings, Lloyd....for book info, check the trailer in my last message....gives my address plus our web address which lists book, paintings, tee shirts, etc., and credit card info. OR.....send check for $23.45 to me at the address. Your book will be mailed via Priority Mail same day and you should have it in two days. Thanks for your interest...glad to talk to you anytime. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From spider@ivic.net Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:36:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:36:07 -0700 From: Dick Smith spider@ivic.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] March Field Museum This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C01F5C.F5270000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi To All: I have made arrangements for a group from our reunion in San = Diego to be welcomed at the March Field Museum on Wednesday Sept 27 we = will leave the Hotel at 9:00 am and return Wednesday afternoon , we will = be allowed to enter the B17 and other aircraft. If you are interested in = this visit let me know at the hotel or by E-Mail. I have room in my van = for six but if more want to go we will arrange transportation .=20 Spider Smith spider@ivic.net ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C01F5C.F5270000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi To All: I have made arrangements for a group = from our=20 reunion in San Diego to be welcomed at the March Field Museum on Wednesday = Sept 27 we=20 will leave the Hotel at 9:00 am and return Wednesday afternoon , we will = be=20 allowed to enter the B17 and other aircraft. If you are interested in = this visit=20 let me know at the hotel or by E-Mail. I have room in my van for six but = if more=20 want to go we will arrange transportation .

Spider = Smith spider@ivic.net

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C01F5C.F5270000-- From westwind@candw.ky Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:26:56 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:26:56 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] March Field Museum This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C01FC8.A3543920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds great, but we're booked for the Zoo that day. Thanks for your efforts. Arni Sumarlidason -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com]On Behalf Of Dick Smith Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 10:36 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] March Field Museum Hi To All: I have made arrangements for a group from our reunion in San Diego to be welcomed at the March Field Museum on Wednesday Sept 27 we will leave the Hotel at 9:00 am and return Wednesday afternoon , we will be allowed to enter the B17 and other aircraft. If you are interested in this visit let me know at the hotel or by E-Mail. I have room in my van for six but if more want to go we will arrange transportation . Spider Smith spider@ivic.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C01FC8.A3543920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sounds=20 great, but we're booked for the Zoo that day. Thanks for your = efforts.=20 Arni Sumarlidason

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com]On=20 Behalf Of Dick Smith
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 = 10:36=20 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
Subject: = [303rd-Talk] March=20 Field Museum

Hi To All: I have made arrangements for a = group from our=20 reunion in San Diego to be welcomed at the March Field Museum on = Wednesday Sept 27=20 we will leave the Hotel at 9:00 am and return Wednesday afternoon , we = will be=20 allowed to enter the B17 and other aircraft. If you are interested in = this=20 visit let me know at the hotel or by E-Mail. I have room in my van for = six but=20 if more want to go we will arrange transportation .

       Spider = Smith spider@ivic.net
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C01FC8.A3543920-- From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:01:59 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:01:59 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day I recently found 2 rolls of 35mm negatives, one of which had a few pictures taken while the war was still going, but the second roll was apparently taken in mid-late May of 1945, when, from what I have been told here, low level flights were made over Europe apparently with the purpose of showing the ground crews the results of their efforts. The quality of thes pictures isn't real good, but I think they are interesting. They seem to have been taken by my father out the window of the B-17, from the pilot's seat. One picture shows the co-pilot in the next seat, who I think I have identified as Ralph L Johnson. Most of the pictures show various bomb damage like destroyed bridges, but one picture shows the Eifel Tower in Paris behind the B-17 prop. Anyway, if you are interested in seeing a couple examples, I have put 3 or 4 of the pictures at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/postveda.html I'm sorry about the quality, but I made the images by projecting the images onto the wall, and photographing them with a digital camera...... worked, but the quality could be better. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From oliver@kingturtle.com Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:16:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:16:42 -0700 From: Oliver Brown oliver@kingturtle.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Hello, my name is Oliver Brown. My uncle, Howard Weinberg, was a bombardier for 427-H. His first mission (which we never knew about until viewing the Personnel data on this web site) was on March 27, 1945, piloted by Roman Ley. Uncle Howard was KIA on his second mission (mission #353 to Leipzig, Germany), April 6, 1945, in the Green Hill Belle (#43-38958, piloted by Melvin Alderman) in a mid-air collision with #44-8647 (piloted by Howard Lacker). The entire 17 crewmen in the two B-17s were KIA. My mother, Lois Brown (who will post here shortly) was 11 when her brother Howard died. You all know the pain that families go through when this happens. His death shattered her family, and although I was born 21 years after his death, I feel the heartbreak and sorrow as well. Our country hasn't fully recovered from what we lost in World War II. I fear that much of this country is unaware it lost ANYTHING. The Website of the 303rd Bomb Group Association is a remarkable gift to us all. I congratulate and thank all who have been involved in its creation. It is a center for resources, reunions, stories, memorials, sharing, learning, teaching and helping that is internationally and instantaneously accessible to 1000s of people who would otherwise never have the opportunity to meet or correspond. After running into a series of dead ends and exhausted trails in years past, I had given up researching Howard's life. Stumbling on this Web site has rekindled my desire to know more. I hope that as my family continues our research we can also help others as they do theirs. Thank you to all of you who served in the 303rd. I know my freedom today depended on your bravery and intelligence. Lastly, I have to ask...does anyone out there remember Howard Weinberg? We'd love to hear your memories of him, even if they were brief encounters. Sincerely, Oliver Brown oliver@kingturtle.com From djsmith27@hotmail.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:14:48 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:14:48 GMT From: D.J. Smith djsmith27@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day Dear Mr. Jones, Thank you for posting the pictures on the web for us to enjoy. I wanted to let you know that I am a graphic designer. I have scanners and programs that can boost the quality of your pictures if you would like. I wouldn't charge you for it. I would like to work with copies of the pictures rather than the originals because of the fear that they might get lost in transit. I could scan the pictures, clean the scratches up and then email them back to you in whatever format you would prefer. If you are interested let me know. You have my email address. Sincerely, D.J. From: "Bill Jones" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, Heavy_Bombers@topica.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:01:59 -0400 I recently found 2 rolls of 35mm negatives, one of which had a few pictures taken while the war was still going, but the second roll was apparently taken in mid-late May of 1945, when, from what I have been told here, low level flights were made over Europe apparently with the purpose of showing the ground crews the results of their efforts. The quality of thes pictures isn't real good, but I think they are interesting. They seem to have been taken by my father out the window of the B-17, from the pilot's seat. One picture shows the co-pilot in the next seat, who I think I have identified as Ralph L Johnson. Most of the pictures show various bomb damage like destroyed bridges, but one picture shows the Eifel Tower in Paris behind the B-17 prop. Anyway, if you are interested in seeing a couple examples, I have put 3 or 4 of the pictures at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/postveda.html I'm sorry about the quality, but I made the images by projecting the images onto the wall, and photographing them with a digital camera...... worked, but the quality could be better. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:28:53 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:28:53 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Leipzig was a pretty intense target, to say the least. A second or two after Bombs Away (Nov.30,''44) a steel flak fragment came through the nose and caught my navigator in the face, taking his eye. I don't know how many ships went down that day and I surely hoped I would never have to go there again! Pardon this shameless commercial, but a moment-by-moment account of the 1000-plane raid on Berlin, 3 Feb.'45 is in my book "Last Raid", and is typical of the activities involved in a bombing mission. May I refer you to for details. Thank you sincerely for your letter and sentiments. Cheers, Bob Hand, Capt.USAF/Ret Bombardier 303/360 35m. Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From wejones@megalink.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:22:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:22:29 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > Hello, my name is Oliver Brown. My uncle, Howard Weinberg, was a bombardier > for 427-H. His first mission (which we never knew about until viewing the > Personnel data on this web site) was on March 27, 1945, piloted by Roman > Ley. Uncle Howard was KIA on his second mission (mission #353 to Leipzig, > Germany), April 6, 1945, in the Green Hill Belle (#43-38958, piloted by > Melvin Alderman) in a mid-air collision with #44-8647 (piloted by Howard > Lacker). The entire 17 crewmen in the two B-17s were KIA. > In the research I have done, looking through the 303rdbga web page and through the microfilm records I have, I've come accross this crash several times. Ie there seem to be many roll of the dice good luck/bad luck situations with respect to this crash, with people transferred onto the Lacker crew, and moved off of the Lacker crew prior to the crash, and other similar things (I know one lucky man left the Lacker crew to fly with my father, and I looked up info about another man who was pulled off another crew to fly with the Lacker crew). But the saddest aspect is the Lacker crew picture. I know it is tough to look at any of the crew pictures and see all the KIA indications in the captions, but the Lacker crew picture, with the man at the front right holding the doll his wife gave him is something special. Brings tears to your eyes every time. I'd really like to hear a narrative, perhaps from Mr Gobrecht, about how and why that collision happened, and why there seemed to be an intensive effort at that time. I know I've looked up the missions just before that, and noticed that the Lacker crew flew about 4 days in a row, so I was curious whether fatigue might have been a factor, or if it was weather related??? Anyone know? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From djsmith27@hotmail.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:25:39 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:25:39 GMT From: D.J. Smith djsmith27@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact was interesting nonetheless. Take care, D.J. Smith _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:45:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:45:54 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Here is a story written by Willard (Hap) Reese, a pilot with the 457th BG(H) at nearby Glatton that describes the sheer terror of some assemblies. Great story and one that has remained with me for a long time. Kevin Pearson Shuffling-the-Deck Whenever a large number of planes are attempting to form up over England in bad weather there is always the possibility of a collision. Often there were low thin clouds that obscured or limited visibility to less than a mile at specific altitudes. Each group commander would attempt to get his group above this haze layer by climbing as quickly as possible. It was on one of those hazy, cloudy days, that, while forming up, we suddenly found ourselves face to face with another bomb group and in seconds we were fighting madly with the planes controls to avoid a multi mid-air collision. When two groups (usually 64 planes) come together on a collision course we called it "shuffling-the-deck". This dreaded event almost always resulted in one or more collisions of aircraft and the death of many flyers. And it usually occurred at lower altitudes which did not allow sufficient time for men to escape a falling, badly damaged plane. On this occasion, while we were still climbing to our prescribed altitude, our leader spotted the other group coming toward us through the mist perhaps two miles away and at almost the same altitude. A command came from the lead (or someone on the radio) to "Spread out", "Spread out". In seconds every plane in the group swerved, dived or climbed at the same instant. Those on the upper tier climbed as steeply as they could, those in the lower tier dived sharply and those in between turned left or right as the space allowed. It was rather like "every man for himself" with each crew trying to find a spot in the sky where he would be safe from these giant objects filled with his fellow flyers. The other group which was approaching us performed almost the same maneuvers and for the next minute the sky was filled with 64 planes attempting to avoid collision. Of course the pilot cannot see all areas around the plane and relies heavily on his crew at these times to tell him of approaching planes from above or below and a good crew will keep the pilot informed. On this occasion the intercom was filled with excited vocal directions of "plane coming in on port side", below..CLIMB", "plane close at two o'clock", and on and on. In less than a minute it was all over and a check of the sky and a voice relay from the crew indicated that, as far as we could tell, no one had collided. It was a welcome miracle that none of the planes was even damaged. My heartbeat must have hit 150 in that short time and I'm sure the rest of the crew felt about the way I felt. The plane we were flying that day responded beautifully to the sudden change of power and the unusual maneuvers to which I had forced it in those few seconds. This was one of the many reasons we loved flying the B-17. Now, out of danger, we just flew straight and level for a few minutes while we tried to compose ourselves. I looked at Jim in the copilots seat and his usual smiling face was almost white.....he made a gesture with his hand of wipeing his brow and then proceeded to call for a crew check on the intercom. The violent wrenching of the plane during these maneuvers had sent some of the crew flying violently around in the nose and the waist compartment but no one was the worse for wear and I'm sure they were all thankful that a few bruises were the worst injury they would sustain after shuffling-the-deck. A further check confirmed that the closest encounter occurred within the low squadron but all had survived. Our group leader again began shooting flares so that we could identify him through the misty atmosphere and slowly but evenly we resumed our positions in group formation. We were now on our way to the target. All this and we had not yet left England. We would be late for our rendezvous with the bomber stream but we had survived one of the worst experiences for a flight crew. To go down over your own field as a result of a mid air collision or to be the cause of a crash or death of another crew from your own group was about as bad as anything you might experience while flying. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of D.J. Smith Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:33 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact was interesting nonetheless. Take care, D.J. Smith _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:44:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:44:58 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he > told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed > some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this > is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might > offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. > > Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in > the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the > English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that > due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing > only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. > He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time > trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that > another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that > there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he > barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen > are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact > was interesting nonetheless. I've heard a lot of similar stories saying that the assembly time after takeoff was hazardous. However, from the short narrative I saw about the Apr 6 crash, I got the impression that the collision occurred "just prior to the target", ie on the bomb run. The time frame is interesting because at just about this time the 303rd changed from the Box formation to a newer "V" formation, but I'm not sure exactly when this occurred. It occurred to me that perhaps the "V" was adopted because of this collission, or perhaps the collision was caused by confusion in flying this new formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From wejones@megalink.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:06:24 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:06:24 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day Yesterday I posted a URL to some pictures I found taken on a flight to show bomb damage to the ground personnel. Today, I found a 2 page document, which seems to be a handout that must have been given to the passengers to tell them what they were seeing. The document is pretty interesting. I've scanned it, and added links to the scanned pages in the same URL I posted yesterday. I also got my wife to type it out, and have included a text version too. The text version can be viewed at : http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/contexp.html The document is called " Hells Angel's Continental Express " . It is a nice document for people like me who are trying to learn more about what the targets were, and why they were important. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:21:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:21:32 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Hi Bill: Kevin Pearson here. When groups would turn off target, many times they made sharp turns to avoid flak concentrations, and after dropping their loads, would fly evasive manuevers. Some aircraft that had been crippled prior to target would be trying to join up with formations returning from the target. All of this made collisions over the target a very real threat to collision. I've heard of many planes lost to collision during this very intense time. Some groups would bomb at one altitude (even different squadrons bombed at different altitudes). Winds at different altitudes, even by as little as a couple hundred feet, could be blowing in different directions, causing one group to cross under another at bombs away. I've even heard that headwinds over some targets gave a ground speed of under 100 mph, making our planes sitting ducks for the flak batteries, especially later in the war when flak batteries were radar controlled. No, fighters and flak weren't the only enemies of the Eighth. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:54 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he > told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed > some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this > is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might > offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. > > Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in > the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the > English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that > due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing > only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. > He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time > trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that > another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that > there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he > barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen > are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact > was interesting nonetheless. I've heard a lot of similar stories saying that the assembly time after takeoff was hazardous. However, from the short narrative I saw about the Apr 6 crash, I got the impression that the collision occurred "just prior to the target", ie on the bomb run. The time frame is interesting because at just about this time the 303rd changed from the Box formation to a newer "V" formation, but I'm not sure exactly when this occurred. It occurred to me that perhaps the "V" was adopted because of this collission, or perhaps the collision was caused by confusion in flying this new formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From djsmith27@hotmail.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:36:47 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:36:47 GMT From: D.J. Smith djsmith27@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions I would go along with your assumptions. In talking with Mr. Mitchell he also told me about the formation of the birds. He was very proud of his abilities, rather talent, to hold a very, very tight formation. He said that the typical formation would almost place the wing of one B-17 on the tip of the wing of another. The purpose for such a tight formation is obvious. He told me that they flew like that in order to increase the chances of the bombing group hitting on target. A greater concentration of bombs on one particular area. Mr. Mitchell also noted that the bombers would fly in a staggered formation, three tiers tall. Can you imagine flying in the middle tier knowing that the fellows above you are going to drop their payload and you are about to drop through another tier of bombers? Do you know how many birds were involved in the bombing run in which the crash took place? It might be that this formation described above (i.e. wing to wing) might have caused the crash. Surely one wrong move could mean disaster. However, we all know the good men flying the B-17s were aces when it came to flying the mighty fortress! Especially those pilots of the Mighty Eighth. Thanks for the discussion Bill. I don't know much but I love to learn. Maybe some of the heros from that day could set us straight on the matter. D.J. From: "Bill Jones" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:44:58 -0400 > When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he > told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed > some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this > is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might > offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. > > Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in > the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the > English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that > due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing > only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. > He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time > trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that > another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that > there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he > barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen > are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact > was interesting nonetheless. I've heard a lot of similar stories saying that the assembly time after takeoff was hazardous. However, from the short narrative I saw about the Apr 6 crash, I got the impression that the collision occurred "just prior to the target", ie on the bomb run. The time frame is interesting because at just about this time the 303rd changed from the Box formation to a newer "V" formation, but I'm not sure exactly when this occurred. It occurred to me that perhaps the "V" was adopted because of this collission, or perhaps the collision was caused by confusion in flying this new formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:57:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:57:56 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions DJ: Sorry, but I have not followed all of your dialogue. Do you have the Missing Air Crew Report for the plane in question. Do you know the a/c serial number? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of D.J. Smith Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:43 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions I would go along with your assumptions. In talking with Mr. Mitchell he also told me about the formation of the birds. He was very proud of his abilities, rather talent, to hold a very, very tight formation. He said that the typical formation would almost place the wing of one B-17 on the tip of the wing of another. The purpose for such a tight formation is obvious. He told me that they flew like that in order to increase the chances of the bombing group hitting on target. A greater concentration of bombs on one particular area. Mr. Mitchell also noted that the bombers would fly in a staggered formation, three tiers tall. Can you imagine flying in the middle tier knowing that the fellows above you are going to drop their payload and you are about to drop through another tier of bombers? Do you know how many birds were involved in the bombing run in which the crash took place? It might be that this formation described above (i.e. wing to wing) might have caused the crash. Surely one wrong move could mean disaster. However, we all know the good men flying the B-17s were aces when it came to flying the mighty fortress! Especially those pilots of the Mighty Eighth. Thanks for the discussion Bill. I don't know much but I love to learn. Maybe some of the heros from that day could set us straight on the matter. D.J. From: "Bill Jones" Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:44:58 -0400 > When I had the priviledge to speak with Mr. Fred Mitchell of the 427th, he > told me of the scariest moment he had while piloting a B-17 that might shed > some light on the crash betweent the two B-17s. I do not suggest that this > is the definitive answer to the particular crash mentioned but it might > offer something of a thought as to what might have happened. > > Mr. Mitchell said that when the 1000+ bombers where taking off they were in > the worst of conditions for visibility. As we all know the weather over the > English region of the world is often cloudy or foggy at best. He said that > due to this condition the bombers would take off at a gradual slant climbing > only a few thousand feet and then turn 180 degrees and climb a little more. > He told me to try and picture a 1000 planes doing this at the same time > trying to reach the proper altitude for their mission. He told me that > another B-17 crossed just under him and scared him to death. He said that > there were several planes that crashed as a result of incidents that he > barely escaped. I don't know the particulars of the crash that you gentlemen > are speaking of so forgive me if I speak out of line. I thought this fact > was interesting nonetheless. I've heard a lot of similar stories saying that the assembly time after takeoff was hazardous. However, from the short narrative I saw about the Apr 6 crash, I got the impression that the collision occurred "just prior to the target", ie on the bomb run. The time frame is interesting because at just about this time the 303rd changed from the Box formation to a newer "V" formation, but I'm not sure exactly when this occurred. It occurred to me that perhaps the "V" was adopted because of this collission, or perhaps the collision was caused by confusion in flying this new formation? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:11:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:11:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Are you speaking from experience or from what you heard or what you read? The roughest part of the Oscherslben mission (we lost 11 aircraft) was the traffic pattern at Molesworth when 20 planes were in the traffic pattern trying to land with zero visibility. It was my fourth mission and i wondered how I would make 25. Hal Susskind From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:32:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:32:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day Your photos brought back fond memories. I was one of the lead navigators on the "Bus tour" of Germany. It was strange flying over all those former targets and not getting shot at. I was in London the day the first buzz bombs came over. I had just finished my first tour and was on pass to London. I had to spend the night in the subway with all the Briish families. That was when they made the war personal and was instrumental inmy decision to come back for another tour. Hal Susskind From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:41:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:41:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Leipzig was a rought target when I visited it in February of "44. Maybe it is about time I go into my WW II foot lccker and start working on my book. Hal Susskind From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:47:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:47:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions How do I take a short leave from this talk show so I can attend the reunion in San Diego? Hal Sussind From glm@xmission.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:31:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:31:14 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > How do I take a short leave from this talk show so I can attend the > reunion in San Diego? Hal Sussind I can arrange that for you if you like, or you can set the option yourselves. Personally, I'm going to keep the mail coming and read it when I get home. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Pilot8thAF@aol.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:42:52 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:42:52 EDT From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com Pilot8thAF@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE 27 March 1945 mid-air collision You ask how and why the collision happened. Unfortunately no answers exist. The weather below the formation was clear. At formation altitude every B-17 was followed by dense and persistent condensation trails making it difficult to see many of the formation B-17's.. The collision occured shortly before reaching the targetat Leipzig, Germany. Shortly before the collision the formation had been attacked by a ME262 German Fighter and in such cases the formations tightened up. Exactly what happened we will never know since there were no survivors in either B-17. The dense contrails and flying close together contributed to the collision. Such accidents happen in an instant and require extraordinary alertness by all Pilots and crewmen. Blaming the accident on fatigue is pure speculation. Harry D. Gobrecht From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Dale Carlson Has just joined the computer world. Dale was the waist gunner on Old Black Magic,35 Missions. HE will be in San Diego, say hello. His E-MAIL BACDHC@aol.com From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:35:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision Oliver Brown writes that his uncle, Howard Weinberg, was shot down on his second mission. The pilot was Melvin Alderman. Was this also Alderman's second mission? If so, he could have become disorientated by the contrails. It took a few missions to adjust.. Flying high altitude formation is much different from flying at lower altitudes as there is no ground referemce, Contrails make it seem that you are flying at a far greater speed than you are. We were given very little, if any, high altitude training in the States. It was "on the job" training. Lou From glm@xmission.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:45:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:45:58 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision > > Oliver Brown writes that his uncle, Howard Weinberg, was shot down on > his second mission. The pilot was Melvin Alderman. Was this also > Alderman's second mission? If so, he could have become disorientated > by the contrails. It took a few missions to adjust.. > Actually, it was about Alderman's 35th mission. Alderman's copilot was Roman Ley, who was a newly assigned pilot. Weinberg was assigned to Ley's Crew. I believe it was the first mission for Ley and his crew. I suspect the experienced pilot Alderman was taking the new Ley crew on their first mission. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:07:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Please take me off for the week I spend in San Diego. I don't want to come back to Austin and find 100 messages on my screen. Thanks. Hal Susskind From Jprencher@aol.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:49:54 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:49:54 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision Hal, If I'd realized what a rough war I was in I'd been scared as H. I flew 35 missions and never knew what a rough war I was in until I read the e-mail to day. We never aborted. We never came closer than 8 or 10 inches to hitting another B-17. Never lost more than 2 engines on any one mission and came back from 3 whole missions with no holes in the airplane. We never flew a formation where another planes bombs could hit you unless one of you were several feet out of position. Wish we'd flown with you. Our navigator had two positions. He thought we were either east of the Rhine River or west of it. He was right 50% of the time. He was never sure. He always just thought. Best Wishes Hal. Jack the Treasurer From Jprencher@aol.com Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:15:08 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:15:08 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions D.J. We did not fly wing tip to wing tip. When flying tight formation in our group the wing mans wing would be behind his leaders wing and 2 or 3 feet above or below it depending on his position, to stay out of the prop wash or disturbed air from the lead wing. The right wing man would have his left wing behind the leads right wing. The left wing man would have his right wing behind the leads left wing and 2 or 3 feet above or below it depending on which 3 plane element you were in If you were flying in the box directly behind your lead plane you flew low so your nose would be below his tail but far enough back your nose would be behind his bomb bay and low enough your vertical stabilizer would not be in his wash. Maybe 5 or 6 feet low. Hope you get the picture. We very rarely had a collision in our group but they did happen once in a while. Flying combat is a hazardous occupation. Best wishes, Jack From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:32:19 EDT Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:32:19 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Good AM Oliver. From my bombardier book I note that there is an H.Weinberg listed as having graduated from Midland AAF Bombardier School in Class 44-12 . I finished training at Carlsbad AAF w/ Class 44-8 on 10 June '44. Good luck on your search. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, Capt./USAF/Ret. Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:37:48 EDT Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:37:48 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Scary as hell to read that "shuffling" story all over again...a great record to pass on to anyone not familiar with assembly dangers. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, B/360, Fink's Crew. Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:50:57 EDT Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:50:57 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions On my Nov.30 trip to Leipzig I was on the sight when a fragment burst through the "picture window" over my head and hit my navigator Harry Subkowsky in the face, taking his left eye. Scary damned place. By all means, do the book. I did mine and have sold a few and made a hundred friends. ("Last Raid" is in Smithsonian, Mighty 8th Heritage, EAA @ Oshkosh, Aviation Theme Restaurants, etc., as well as requests from Australia, Portugal, Holland, etc.....available through web at address below.) I thoroughly enjoy being part of the info line coming from your expertise. Good Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, B/360/35M, Fink's Crew. Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:01:42 EDT Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:01:42 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision Amazing what you can find out on this line by asking a simple question. This channel is golden. For further info re/ life at Molesworth, I invite you to dial the web address below. Meet "Wyle Bluyonda" and see his stuff. Thanks and Best Wishes, Bob Hand, B/360, Fink's Crew, 35M. Cheers! Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:33:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:33:01 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision To Bob Hand: Bob I didn't know you were the famed artist of the 303rd! Your painting "New Kids on the Block" has haunted me since I first saw it in the JAC at Molesworth. I've thought about that painting many times since I saw it two years ago. It is one of the more interesting pieces of 8th AF art I now have in my collection. Do you have an autographed Galand or Hartmann pic in your inventory, and if so, how much? Thanks, Bob! You are an exceptional artist!! Kevin Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 9:44 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Mid-air collision Amazing what you can find out on this line by asking a simple question. This channel is golden. For further info re/ life at Molesworth, I invite you to dial the web address below. Meet "Wyle Bluyonda" and see his stuff. Thanks and Best Wishes, Bob Hand, B/360, Fink's Crew, 35M. Cheers! Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From Theklints@email.msn.com Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:11:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:11:08 -0500 From: Wilbur Klint Theklints@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Suspend This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C02315.00E580E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please remove me from the Talk site. Will reconsider after SD. Thanks, BUD ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C02315.00E580E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please remove me from the Talk = site. Will=20 reconsider after SD.

Thanks,   =20 BUD
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C02315.00E580E0-- From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:52:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:52:07 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Pictures of bomb damage after VE day Thank you for the time and effort you put into this piece. You have helped to put another part into the puzzle. Very best wishes. Lloyd Grant Bill Jones wrote: > Yesterday I posted a URL to some pictures I found taken on a flight to show bomb > damage to the ground personnel. > > Today, I found a 2 page document, which seems to be a handout that must have been > given to the passengers to tell them what they were seeing. The document is pretty > interesting. I've scanned it, and added links to the scanned pages in the same URL I > posted yesterday. I also got my wife to type it out, and have included a text version > too. > The text version can be viewed at : http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/contexp.html > > The document is called " Hells Angel's Continental Express " . It is a nice > document for people like me who are trying to learn more about what the targets were, > and why they were important. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:01:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:01:18 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Way past time, Hal. Get into that foot-locker and start writing. I would like to buy the first copy. Thanks. Lloyd Grant, (SOa 427th). Harold Susskind wrote: > Leipzig was a rought target when I visited it in February of "44. Maybe > it is about time I go into my WW II foot lccker and start working on my > book. Hal Susskind > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:59:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:59:41 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions An exellent reply, Jack. You guys may not realize it, but the agonizing requirement to understand everything possible, from the trivial to the cataclysmic, is the only hope that the historical events you participated in and shaped, will be remembered in fact, and not fantasy, or not remembered at all. I hope you are well and good. Thank you for this information. With regards, Lloyd Grant. Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > D.J. > We did not fly wing tip to wing tip. When flying tight formation in our > group the wing mans wing would be behind his leaders wing and 2 or 3 feet > above or below it depending on his position, to stay out of the prop wash or > disturbed air from the lead wing. The right wing man would have his left > wing behind the leads right wing. The left wing man would have his right wing > behind the leads left wing and 2 or 3 feet above or below it depending on > which 3 plane element you were in If you were flying in the box directly > behind your lead plane you flew low so your nose would be below his tail but > far enough back your nose would be behind his bomb bay and low enough your > vertical stabilizer would not be in his wash. Maybe 5 or 6 feet low. > > Hope you get the picture. We very rarely had a collision in our group but > they did happen once in a while. Flying combat is a hazardous occupation. > Best wishes, > Jack > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From jody53@webtv.net Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Dyle Davidson jody53@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Mid-Air collisions, April 6, 1945 --WebTV-Mail-13335-385 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit That trip to Leipzig was #29 for me and I have been waiting for some one to mention about the P-51 collisions on the same mission. The cloud cover is heavy. I watched our P-51 escort off the left wing and ahead of us, before the I.P. One dove into a heavy cloud ahead of us and one from the right side to collide {?} with a huge yellow flash in the interior of that dense cloud. Are my notes accurate or am I still listening to Axis Sally and Lord Haw-haw ? Dyle Davidson 360th --WebTV-Mail-13335-385 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-13335-385-- From cmcneill@hwy5.net Sat, 23 Sep 2000 00:07:08 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 00:07:08 -0400 From: chris mcneill cmcneill@hwy5.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] K.C Edwards crew This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C024F2.36D3A720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My name is Chris Mcneill, my wife's grandfather was Kenneth V Johnson he = was a engineer on the Edwards crew.I have found alot of pictures in his = house after he and his wife passed away from his time in the = service.This was the beginning of a fun project were I have made some = new friends and get to preserve some history at the same time.I need to = give alot of thanks to Bob Rettinhouse,Pete Kowalk and Colman Sanders = who haven't minded helping me with my project .If anyone knew Mr Johnson = or has anything I can add to our scrap book or if you just have a = question or comment feel free to contact me. Grace to you, Chris Mcneill ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C024F2.36D3A720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My name is Chris Mcneill, my wife's = grandfather was=20 Kenneth V Johnson he was a engineer on the Edwards crew.I have found = alot of=20 pictures in his house after he and his wife passed away from his time in = the=20 service.This was the beginning of a fun project were I have made some = new=20 friends and get to preserve some history at the same time.I need to give = alot of=20 thanks to Bob Rettinhouse,Pete Kowalk and Colman Sanders who haven't = minded=20 helping me with my project .If anyone knew Mr Johnson or has anything I = can add=20 to our scrap book or if you just have a question or comment feel = free to=20 contact me.

          &nbs= p;            = ;          =20 Grace to you,

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =     =20 Chris Mcneill
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C024F2.36D3A720-- From cmcneill@hwy5.net Sat, 23 Sep 2000 00:08:43 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 00:08:43 -0400 From: chris mcneill cmcneill@hwy5.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] K.C Edwards crew This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C024F2.6F3C9220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My name is Chris Mcneill, my wife's grandfather was Kenneth V Johnson he = was a engineer on the Edwards crew.I have found alot of pictures in his = house after he and his wife passed away from his time in the = service.This was the beginning of a fun project were I have made some = new friends and get to preserve some history at the same time.I need to = give alot of thanks to Bob Rettinhouse,Pete Kowalk and Colman Sanders = who haven't minded helping me with my project .If anyone knew Mr Johnson = or has anything I can add to our scrap book or if you just have a = question or comment feel free to contact me. Grace to you, Chris Mcneill ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C024F2.6F3C9220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My name is Chris Mcneill, my wife's = grandfather was=20 Kenneth V Johnson he was a engineer on the Edwards crew.I have found = alot of=20 pictures in his house after he and his wife passed away from his time in = the=20 service.This was the beginning of a fun project were I have made some = new=20 friends and get to preserve some history at the same time.I need to give = alot of=20 thanks to Bob Rettinhouse,Pete Kowalk and Colman Sanders who haven't = minded=20 helping me with my project .If anyone knew Mr Johnson or has anything I = can add=20 to our scrap book or if you just have a question or comment feel = free to=20 contact me.

          &nbs= p;            = ;          =20 Grace to you,

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =     =20 Chris Mcneill
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C024F2.6F3C9220-- From CDouglasN@aol.com Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:10:31 EDT Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:10:31 EDT From: CDouglasN@aol.com CDouglasN@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Historical Questions... Hi there, I'm a college student who has a deep interest in WWII heavy bombers. I've got all kinds of books and things like that, but I've never been able to find a the answers to a few of my more oddball questions. For those chaps who were there I pose these two questions to you. 1. "Big Week" took place towards the end of February 1944, right? Was it called Big Week from the get go, or was that a name the crews gave it in retrospect? Was that a code name for it or something like that? 2. If, when returning from a mission, your plane landed at another 8th AF field (due to battle damage) were you debriefed there or did that wait until you got back to your home field again? Ok, so it was a bit more than two questions, but any help you guys can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chuck From jackjay@worldnet.att.net Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:27:08 -0400 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:27:08 -0400 From: Jack jackjay@worldnet.att.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Virus...!!!! To all 303rd'ers My virus program found a virus in the (303rd-Talk Unsubscripe.dat) file. (WScript/Kak.worm) is the name of the virus. I suggest everyone suscribed to 303rd-talk to run there virus softwear. If found, move the infected file(s) to another folder and then delete. The virus program may not delete it automaticly. go to this link to find out more about the WScript/Kak.worm virus http://vil.nai.com/villib/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=10509 Good Luck Jack T From pegasus@mho.net Tue, 26 Sep 2000 05:17:42 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 05:17:42 -0600 From: Dennis pegasus@mho.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Virus...!!!! Jack wrote: > To all 303rd'ers > > My virus program found a virus in the (303rd-Talk Unsubscripe.dat) file. > (WScript/Kak.worm) is the name of the virus. > I suggest everyone suscribed to 303rd-talk to run there virus softwear. If > found, move the infected file(s) to another folder and then delete. The > virus program may not delete it automaticly. > > go to this link to find out more about the WScript/Kak.worm virus > http://vil.nai.com/villib/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=10509 There is a fairly easy cure for the Kak Virus.. it will take me a day but I can find the proceedure... in fact I think I have the anti-kak program in my system that will eradicate it. It only affects Microsoft Explorer and Outlook users... (Netscape people are safe from it) I'm running out the door but will have more later, Dennis From wejones@megalink.net Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:42:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:42:51 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Names on planes and temporary nose art? I finally got to look at a library copy of "Might in Flight" (nice book BTW), and while reading through it I noticed a picture of Major Heller in the co-pilot's side of a plane, apparently taken about the time he took over the 360th squadron in early 1945. The picture shows his name below the window, and gives a partial view of some nose art with the name "Jean" visible. I looked in the 303rdbga aircraft list, and only found one plane with a partial name Jean, and it didn't seem to be a possibility for several reasons. Anyway, since Major Heller usually flew in the left pilot's seat, and since the nose art seemed to be an "un-official" name, I was curious whether perhaps it might have been common for pilots to write their name, and perhaps draw temporary nose art on a plane prior to a mission? Since at this time of the war, most pilots didn't have a plane that only they flew, but rather shared the planes with other pilots, and since they didn't always fly the same plane, it seems like a lot of effort to erase the last pilots (or co- pilots) name and insert your own on each mission, but perhaps this was a special case since Major Heller was the squadron commander. I've also heard from some accounts from people whose relatives who flew B-17s, who said that their relative flew a certain named plane on all missions, but that name doesn't show up in the inventory, and an inspection of the records shows that the individuals flew in a dozen different planes, all of which also suggests that they must have given the plane a name just before each mission, and next mission give another plane the same un-official name. Anyway, the question is, did people put temporary names and nose art on planes before they flew on a mission? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:35:33 EDT Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:35:33 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Names on planes and temporary nose art? Temp names would have had to been applied in the wee dawn hours. We didn't, although we always intended to name our plane "Scotch & Sofa". We did autograph an occasional bomb with kindest regards. Cheers, Bob Hand (B/Fink's Crew, 360 Sq. 35m) Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From thollritt@yahoo.com Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: failure delivery --0-1279334067-970143133=:49590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ --0-1279334067-970143133=:49590 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: thollritt@yahoo.com via web9303.mail.yahoo.com X-Track: -20 Received: from web9301.mail.yahoo.com (216.136.129.50) by mta130.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Sep 2000 12:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 Sep 2000 19:01:37 -0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON@yahoo.com To: thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: failure delivery Content-Length: 2343 Message from yahoo.com. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). <303rd-talk@303rd.com>: Sorry, I couldn't find any host named 303rd.com. (#5.1.2) --- Original message follows. Return-Path: Message-ID: <20000927190136.26216.qmail@web9301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [166.132.0.78] by web9301.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:01:36 PDT Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:01:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hollritt Subject: Eighth Air Force Newsletter... And thoughts To: 303rd-talk@303rd.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Check out the latest issue of the Eighth Air Force News, There is a nice three page write up on the Hanger Dance 2000 at Molesworth and monument dedication. The author did make it sound like it was an Eighth Air Force event and sort of glossed over the fact that the JAC (Brian McGuire) and the 303rd historical association pulled this incredible event off! Also I was wondering what was the total number of missions Lt. Col. Lew Lyle completed, Between Molesworth(303rd) and Kimbolton(379th) he must have some kind of record. All this while crews were sweating out 25 or 35 Missions! Anybody near Orange County Airport(NY State)keep an eye skyward for the Collins Foundation B-17G "Nine O Nine" and B-24 "All American" as they are visting up that way. Flights are $350.00 but then again why pay that when th US Goverment paid YOU guys to fly not to long ago :-) Not sure whee there off to later this week but it should be somewhere nearby. And I remember about this time last year some of the great 8th AF Bomb and fighter Group Historical associations were disbanding and scheduling "Final Reunions". It seems hat trend is calming down now but its good to know the 303rd will continue to fly well beyond many a final toast. I wonder if the WWI veterans had such a following? And did you notice that you hear very little about the handfull of "Great War" veterans alive today, How sad a fact that it is. I remember seeing photos of the last Civil War Vets meeting for a "Final" reunion from the late 40's. And some of them were still in uniform too! Todd- Todd Todd- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ --0-1279334067-970143133=:49590-- From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:31:53 EDT Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:31:53 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: failure delivery Hello Todd: Nice to see your letters back and forth. Question: Because of a recent newspaper article on my book "Last Raid" I got a call from someone half a mile down street who was a bombardier with the 305th in Chelveston, our former neighbor. He asks if there is any kind of organization under their banner.....do you know of any? Would appreciate any info which I will pass on. Thanks....hope all is welll with you. Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:36:59 EDT Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:36:59 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston Anybody know of an organization for the 305th BG at Chelveston? Please advise. Thanks and Best Wishes, Bob Hand (B/Fink's Crew,303/360, 35m) Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From thollritt@yahoo.com Fri, 29 Sep 2000 05:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 05:57:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston Hi Bob and All, I belive the 305th BG(H) Historical Association exsits but the last letter I wrote to them a few years ago went unanswered. I also checked out their web page but its tiny, It's run by a former 305th crew member and is ony a couple of pages of historical information on the group. I wrote a letter in hopes of tracking some of Dads mission records but no response, numerous people have told me the 305th records are in sad shape compaired with most bomb groups. If you want I can send a scan of the 305th Monument that I visited in England last year, Its a large plaque mounted on the side of a Parish Church just down the lane from the base entrance. *A quote from the lower part* "This plaque was dedicated on the 24th September 1980 in memory of more than 769 men killed and also those wounded during the 480 missions flown by the group" Again nothing remains at Chelvestion but a large NATO/RAF microwave antenna (Ala Molesworth) and some sheep keeping the grass cut at military height. Its a very peacefull place and there is nothing wrong with that, In America it would be covered with condos and townhouses by now! Todd- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:23:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:23:24 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston If you really want to know about the 305th BG(H) Association, call Ray Baker at 816.238.0111 in St. Joseph Missouri. He is a member and was a lead Navigator during the war. Ray and I serve on the local airport board. There is a very active association and they just had their annual meeting, I think, in Denver. They publish an excellent newsletter. Ray is not an officer of the association, but knows most of them and can give addresses, etc. I think they are making plans for a return to Cheveston sometime next year. Unfortunately, the only remaining hangar at Cheveston was torn down earlier this year and the field is now a NATO "listening" site with antane lining portions of the still intact secondary runway. Been there twice. Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Eighth Air Force Historical Society 800.748.7856 -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Todd Hollritt Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 8:54 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston Hi Bob and All, I belive the 305th BG(H) Historical Association exsits but the last letter I wrote to them a few years ago went unanswered. I also checked out their web page but its tiny, It's run by a former 305th crew member and is ony a couple of pages of historical information on the group. I wrote a letter in hopes of tracking some of Dads mission records but no response, numerous people have told me the 305th records are in sad shape compaired with most bomb groups. If you want I can send a scan of the 305th Monument that I visited in England last year, Its a large plaque mounted on the side of a Parish Church just down the lane from the base entrance. *A quote from the lower part* "This plaque was dedicated on the 24th September 1980 in memory of more than 769 men killed and also those wounded during the 480 missions flown by the group" Again nothing remains at Chelvestion but a large NATO/RAF microwave antenna (Ala Molesworth) and some sheep keeping the grass cut at military height. Its a very peacefull place and there is nothing wrong with that, In America it would be covered with condos and townhouses by now! Todd- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From glm@xmission.com Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:55:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:55:41 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] San Diego Reunion Hi All, Just returned from San Diego and a great reunion with about 350 303rd friends. It was a great trip. I'll try to get caught up on the email over the next day or two. While I was gone, we had 3 new subscribers...... sorry it took so long to get you on 303rd-Talk. Hope you have a good time here. Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Bhandsr@aol.com Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:52:19 EDT Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:52:19 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston Many thanks for the info on the 305th org. I will forward it to Shelley Green, who was bombardier there and contacted me re/ org. name, etc. Cheers, Bob Hand (B/303/360 Fink's Crew, 35m) Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:55:27 EDT Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:55:27 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th @ Chelveston Hello again, Todd....always great "talking" to you. Thanks for the info on 305, again....forgot to mention I'd appreciate the scan of the placque....am sure that Sheldon Greene will appreciate it. Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, Sr. BOB HAND DESIGN 6197 97TH Ct. South Boynton Bch., FL 33437 (561) 731-3382 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/