From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:58:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:58:49 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bless 'em all Lloyd, Here are some more lyrics culled from family and friends: "Bless every blondie and every brunette, Some we'll remember and some we'll forget. So we're giving the eye to them all, the ones that appeal and appall, We'll stall and we'll tarry while they want to marry But nevertheless, bless them all "BLESS 'EM ALL Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all, The long and the short and the tall; Bless all the Admirals in the U.S. Navy: They don't care if we ever get back. So we're waving goodbye to them all As back to our foxholes we crawl. There' ll be no promotions this side the ocean, So, cheer up, my lads, Bless 'em all! b-17.jpg From IBSPEC@aol.com Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:16:29 EST Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:16:29 EST From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] questionnair is it to now want seperate bigraphical narratives of each of us living purchasers of the cd rom .ibspec@aol.com From glm@B17Thunderbird.com Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:27:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:27:00 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@B17Thunderbird.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] questionnair > > is it to now want seperate bigraphical narratives of each of us living > purchasers of the cd rom .ibspec@aol.com I have no idea what you said, but there are no plans to put bios on the CD. That note was on the questionnaire in error and has now been removed. If you filled out a 4 page questionnaire a few years ago, there is no need to do another unless you have more info to add. Harry has some 750 bios on file from the earlier release of it. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:41:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:41:07 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bless 'em all Louis, I think we are making some progress here. My purpose is to get the gist of the whole song and have it recorded, along with some others. Ie. Black Sheep. " We're poor little lambs that have lost our way..." If I can get it right, it could turn out good. Thanks again, pard. Lloyd. Louis Grandwilliams wrote: > Lloyd, Here are some more lyrics culled from family and friends: > > "Bless every blondie and every brunette, > Some we'll remember and some we'll forget. > So we're giving the eye to them all, > the ones that appeal and appall, > We'll stall and we'll tarry > while they want to marry > But nevertheless, bless them all > "BLESS 'EM ALL > > Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all, > The long and the short and the tall; > Bless all the Admirals in the U.S. Navy: They don't care if we ever get > back. > So we're waving goodbye to them all > As back to our foxholes we crawl. > There' ll be no promotions this side the ocean, So, cheer up, my lads, > Bless 'em all! > > > > b-17.jpg > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:43:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:43:05 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Roger that, Kevin, but don't forget "Sentimental Journey". Best. Grant. Kevin Pearson wrote: > My personal favorits from the era are: > Shoo Shoo Baby > Pennsylvania Six Five Thousand > Stomping at the Savoy > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:58 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... > > Speaking of which, "That Old Black Magic" was a wonderful piece of music > that came around in 1943....was it Bob Eberley who sang it? Also "Sleepy > Lagoon" and of course the MIller and Dorsey stuff and "Opus #1". The thing > is, you can still remember the words....from a time when music was music. > Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:49:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:49:15 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Bob, Opus 1 is one of my all time favorites. I agree, I may be a generation behind you, but hell that was real music. Today all we get is noise, and irritating noise at that. Can you offer any verses to the Long and the Short and the Tall? Thanks. Lloyd. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > Speaking of which, "That Old Black Magic" was a wonderful piece of music > that came around in 1943....was it Bob Eberley who sang it? Also "Sleepy > Lagoon" and of course the MIller and Dorsey stuff and "Opus #1". The thing > is, you can still remember the words....from a time when music was music. > Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From hoytwma2@email.msn.com Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:25:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:25:37 -0700 From: hoytwma2 hoytwma2@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C04381.1C7BEE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Oscar Brand has an album that I bought as a boy called the "Wild Blue Yonder" that was loaded with Air Force songs. My dad (Otis A Hoyt 360th Nav) didnt seem too thrilled about it but sort of owned up to a few of the tunes. Bellow is a link to Mr Brands web site where you can order "Wild Blue Yonder" (and quite a selection of other bawdy albums). A version of "The Long and the Short and the Tall" is on the "Wild Blue Yonder"album. Bill Hoyt http://www.oscarbrand.com/order.htm ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C04381.1C7BEE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lloyd
 
Oscar Brand has an album that I bought as a boy called the "Wild = Blue=20 Yonder" that was loaded with Air Force songs. My dad (Otis A=20 Hoyt  360th Nav) didnt seem too thrilled about = it but sort=20 of  owned up to a few of the tunes. Bellow is a link to Mr Brands = web site=20 where you can order "Wild Blue Yonder" (and quite a selection of other = bawdy=20 albums). A version of "The Long and the Short and the Tall" is on the = "Wild Blue=20 Yonder"album.
Bill Hoyt
 
http://www.oscarbrand.com/or= der.htm
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C04381.1C7BEE20-- From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:10:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:10:02 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Bob, There is a haunting and nostalgic facination that accompanies this song. I'm sure it was irreverant in the original intent, but it is a verse of memories that echos like the chorus of a thousand young men singing into the future to remind us. Don't mean to get soppy, Bob. It is just that here lately , I hear that song, and the voices. And I was'nt even born yet. Weird. Sorry. Best. Lloyd. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > The thing that added most to the mystique of "Bless 'em all, the long and the > short and the tall...." was that it was sung in "echo chamber"......very > very reminiscent! Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From wejones@megalink.net Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:59:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:59:47 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... All this talk about old songs got me thinking about a box with 3 old 78 albums I had out in the garage. Years ago, I inherited the 78s from someone (they were given to me because they knew I liked those songs). One of the albums was Glen Miller, another was Louis Armstrong, and the 3rd was Phil Harris. Over the years I never played the records because I didn't have a turntable that did 78s. Anyway, with all this talk of old songs, I decided to pull them out and try to listen to them somehow. Turns out, that apparently years ago, all the Glen Miller and Armstrong records must have worn out, and were thrown away, and were replaced by other records rather than what was indicated on the cover. All the records in the album were some other artist I never heard of (I think the name was Trement or something like that). I had never opened the albums to see what was inside. Anyway, what a dissapointment. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:20:30 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:20:30 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:32:26 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:32:26 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... You've gotten a couple of verses to Long/Short that I've never heard and no doubt more will come bouncing in....but I'll look into it and try to come up with more. There's a book out on the subject, "Army Air Force Lyrics" by J.K.Havener, cartoons by Bob Stevens, that has lyrics to about a hundred vintage songs and their variations. Don't know where I picked it up, but I have dozens of AF books. The book only shows a couple of variations like: Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all, The flak and the fighters and all; Bless all the gunners for firing so high, Bless all the flak guns for filling the sky. For we're saying goodbye to them all, As back to old England we crawl, One-more trip to the Ruhr and we're finished for sure, So cheer up my lads, bless 'em all. Must be a million of them. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:41:03 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:41:03 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... No doubt music was the element of our lives that helped us all deal with the realities of war. I'm sure that the flak gunners were guided by some tempo....we're all human. We sang crazy songs and clowned around on our way to destruction, never forgetting for a moment what our purpose was. It was quite a time. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:55:00 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:55:00 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... In the movie "Twelve O'clock High", Dean Jagger walks among the deserted remnants of a WWII 8thAF base, grass growing through the cracks in the runway. The soft accompanying music is "Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree...." with that eerie, compelling echo chamber effect. Real lump-in-the-throat stuff. Cheers, Bob Hand From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:21:09 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:21:09 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... And more of my favorites from the era: Buggie Woogie Bugle Boy - Andrew Sisters When the Lights Go on Again (All Over the World) - Vaughn Monroe (They'll Be Blue Birds Over) The White Cliffs of Dover - Dick Todd Rosie the Riviter - Four Vagabonds Remember Pearl Harbor - Edie Howard and His Orchestra The Last Time I Saw Paris - Lanny Rose Pistol Packin' Mamma - Al Dexter and His Troopers Comin' In on a Wing and a Prayer - The Golden Gate Quartet Mairzy Dotes - Al Trace and His Silly Symphony I Left My Heart at the Stage Door Canteen - Kenny Baker If you have not heard When the Lights Go On Again or White Cliffs of Dover in a while, buy them. I was not in the war, but these songs still evoke very powerful emotions of what it must have been like. My Mother was in High School during the war years and recently gave me a huge box of 78s from the era. Wow!! Not only are they in good shape, but several have turned out to be very valuable. I had to add them to my insurance. Thank you all for guaranteeing my future!!! Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com From spider@ivic.net Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:25:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:25:57 -0800 From: Dick Smith spider@ivic.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Interesting This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C043F6.80FDB3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Subject: Phrases you wish you could say at work: > >=20 > 1. Ahhh...I see the fuck-up fairy has visited us again... >=20 > 2. I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to > pronounce. >=20 > 3. How about never? Is never good for you? >=20 > 4. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in > public. >=20 > 5. I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship > me. >=20 > 6. I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. >=20 > 7. I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... >=20 > 8. I don't work here. I'm a consultant. >=20 > 9. It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're = saying. >=20 > 10. I can see your point, but I still think you're full of shit. >=20 > 11. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. >=20 > 12. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers. >=20 > 13. I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't give a damn. >=20 > 14. I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth. >=20 > 15. I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you. >=20 > 16. Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point > of view. >=20 > 17. The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an = artist. >=20 > 18. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely = coincidental. >=20 > 19. What am I? Flypaper for freaks!? >=20 > 20. I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant. >=20 > 21. It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off. >=20 > 22. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. >=20 > 23. No, my powers can only be used for good. >=20 > 24. You sound reasonable... Time to up the medication. >=20 > 25. Who me? I just wander from room to room >=20 > 26. And your crybaby whiny-butt opinion would be...? >=20 > 27. Do I look like a people person? >=20 > 28. This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting. >=20 > 29. I started out with nothing & still have most of it left. >=20 > 30. You!... Off my planet! >=20 > 31. Does your train of thought have a caboose? >=20 > 32. Errors have been made. Others will be blamed. >=20 > 33. A PBS mind in an MTV world. >=20 > 34. Allow me to introduce my selves. >=20 > 35. Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed. >=20 > 36. Well, this day was a total waste of makeup. >=20 > 37. Not all men are annoying. Some are dead. >=20 > 38. I'm trying to imagine you with a personality. >=20 > 39. A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door. >=20 > 40. Stress is when you wake up screaming & you realize you haven't > fallen asleep yet. >=20 > 41. Can I trade this job for what's behind door 1? >=20 > 42. Too many freaks, not enough circuses. >=20 > 43. Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it? >=20 > 44. Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done. >=20 > 45. How do I set a laser printer to stun? >=20 > 46. I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the = paychecks. >=20 > 47. If I throw a stick, will you leave? >=20 > 48. Sarcasm is just one more service we offer... >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C043F6.80FDB3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Subject:=20 Phrases you wish you could say at work:
>
>
> 1. = Ahhh...I see=20 the fuck-up fairy has visited us again...
>
> 2. I don't = know what=20 your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to
> pronounce.
> =
>=20 3. How about never? Is never good for you?
>
> 4. I see = you've set=20 aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
> public.
> =
> 5. I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to=20 worship
> me.
>
> 6. I'll try being nicer if you'll = try being=20 smarter.
>
> 7. I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave = a=20 message...
>
> 8. I don't work here. I'm a = consultant.
>=20
> 9. It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're = saying.
>
> 10. I can see your point, but I still think = you're full=20 of shit.
>
> 11. I like you. You remind me of when I was = young and=20 stupid.
>
> 12. You are validating my inherent mistrust of=20 strangers.
>
> 13. I have plenty of talent and vision. I = just don't=20 give a damn.
>
> 14. I'm already visualizing the duct tape = over=20 your mouth.
>
> 15. I will always cherish the initial=20 misconceptions I had about you.
>
> 16. Thank you. We're = all=20 refreshed and challenged by your unique point
> of view.
> =
>=20 17. The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an = artist.
>=20
> 18. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely=20 coincidental.
>
> 19. What am I? Flypaper for = freaks!?
>=20
> 20. I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant.
> =
> 21.=20 It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off.
> =
>=20 22. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely = ceremonial.
>=20
> 23. No, my powers can only be used for good.
>
> = 24. You=20 sound reasonable... Time to up the medication.
>
> 25. Who = me? I=20 just wander from room to room
>
> 26. And your crybaby = whiny-butt=20 opinion would be...?
>
> 27. Do I look like a people=20 person?
>
> 28. This isn't an office. It's Hell with = fluorescent=20 lighting.
>
> 29. I started out with nothing & still = have most=20 of it left.
>
> 30. You!... Off my planet!
>
> = 31.=20 Does your train of thought have a caboose?
>
> 32. Errors = have been=20 made. Others will be blamed.
>
> 33. A PBS mind in an MTV=20 world.
>
> 34. Allow me to introduce my selves.
> =
>=20 35. Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.
> =
> 36.=20 Well, this day was a total waste of makeup.
>
> 37. Not all = men are=20 annoying. Some are dead.
>
> 38. I'm trying to imagine you = with a=20 personality.
>
> 39. A cubicle is just a padded cell = without a=20 door.
>
> 40. Stress is when you wake up screaming & = you=20 realize you haven't
> fallen asleep yet.
>
> 41. Can = I trade=20 this job for what's behind door 1?
>
> 42. Too many freaks, = not=20 enough circuses.
>
> 43. Nice perfume. Must you marinate in = it?
>
> 44. Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is=20 done.
>
> 45. How do I set a laser printer to stun?
> =
> 46. I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the=20 paychecks.
>
> 47. If I throw a stick, will you = leave?
>=20
> 48. Sarcasm is just one more service we offer...
>=20

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C043F6.80FDB3E0-- From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:01:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:01:48 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Kevin, do Not give up that collection of records. Like you , I am from the generation after, but the legacy of memories is invaluable. For our generation perhaps the best remembered sounds would be the "sput-chop-chop" of Hueys and the wierd music spawned in the 60's and 70's. PS. Probably an oversight, but you forgot to mention Vera Lynn "We'll meet again" a song that is poignant, hopeful, sad, and also haunting. Thanks for staying in touch. LLOYD. Kevin Pearson wrote: > And more of my favorites from the era: > > Buggie Woogie Bugle Boy - Andrew Sisters > When the Lights Go on Again (All Over the World) - Vaughn Monroe > (They'll Be Blue Birds Over) The White Cliffs of Dover - Dick Todd > Rosie the Riviter - Four Vagabonds > Remember Pearl Harbor - Edie Howard and His Orchestra > The Last Time I Saw Paris - Lanny Rose > Pistol Packin' Mamma - Al Dexter and His Troopers > Comin' In on a Wing and a Prayer - The Golden Gate Quartet > Mairzy Dotes - Al Trace and His Silly Symphony > I Left My Heart at the Stage Door Canteen - Kenny Baker > > If you have not heard When the Lights Go On Again or White Cliffs of Dover > in a while, buy them. I was not in the war, but these songs still evoke > very powerful emotions of what it must have been like. > > My Mother was in High School during the war years and recently gave me a > huge box of 78s from the era. Wow!! Not only are they in good shape, but > several have turned out to be very valuable. I had to add them to my > insurance. > > Thank you all for guaranteeing my future!!! > Kevin M. Pearson > Vice President, Business Development > St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce > 3003 Frederick Ave. > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > Phone: 816.232.4461 > 800.748.7856 > Fax: 816.364.4873 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:25:54 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:25:54 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Yeah, Lloyd, Vera Lynn is very good too. I am also partial to Frances Langford. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:25 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Kevin, do Not give up that collection of records. Like you , I am from the generation after, but the legacy of memories is invaluable. For our generation perhaps the best remembered sounds would be the "sput-chop-chop" of Hueys and the wierd music spawned in the 60's and 70's. PS. Probably an oversight, but you forgot to mention Vera Lynn "We'll meet again" a song that is poignant, hopeful, sad, and also haunting. Thanks for staying in touch. LLOYD. Kevin Pearson wrote: > And more of my favorites from the era: > > Buggie Woogie Bugle Boy - Andrew Sisters > When the Lights Go on Again (All Over the World) - Vaughn Monroe > (They'll Be Blue Birds Over) The White Cliffs of Dover - Dick Todd > Rosie the Riviter - Four Vagabonds > Remember Pearl Harbor - Edie Howard and His Orchestra > The Last Time I Saw Paris - Lanny Rose > Pistol Packin' Mamma - Al Dexter and His Troopers > Comin' In on a Wing and a Prayer - The Golden Gate Quartet > Mairzy Dotes - Al Trace and His Silly Symphony > I Left My Heart at the Stage Door Canteen - Kenny Baker > > If you have not heard When the Lights Go On Again or White Cliffs of Dover > in a while, buy them. I was not in the war, but these songs still evoke > very powerful emotions of what it must have been like. > > My Mother was in High School during the war years and recently gave me a > huge box of 78s from the era. Wow!! Not only are they in good shape, but > several have turned out to be very valuable. I had to add them to my > insurance. > > Thank you all for guaranteeing my future!!! > Kevin M. Pearson > Vice President, Business Development > St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce > 3003 Frederick Ave. > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > Phone: 816.232.4461 > 800.748.7856 > Fax: 816.364.4873 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:29:23 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:29:23 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Rules of the Air Not sure if I have sent this out before, but just in case I have not. Kevin Rules of the Air Every take-off is optional. Every landing is mandatory. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, the houses get smaller. This is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then the houses get bigger again. Flying isn’t dangerous. Crashing is what’s dangerous. It’s always better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot sweating. When in doubt, hold onto your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky. A “good” landing is one from which you can walk away. A “great” landing is one after which they can use the plane again. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make them all yourself. You know you’ve landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp. The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. Never let your airplane take you somewhere you brain didn’t get to five minutes earlier. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have also been known to hide in clouds. Always try to keep the number of take-offs you make equal to the number of landings. There are three very simple rules for making a smooth landing. Only problem is no one knows what they are. You start the game with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag with experience before you empty the bag of luck. Helicopters can’t fly. Yes, it’s true. They are just so ugly, the Earth naturally repels them. If all you can see out the windows is ground that’s going around and around, and all you hear is commotion coming from the back of the plane, all is not as it should be. In the ongoing battle between aluminum objects going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to loose. Good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience comes from bad judgement. It’s always a good idea to keep the pointy end going forward as much as possible. Keep looking around. There’s always something you missed. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It’s the law. And it is not subject to repeal. The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above him, the runway behind him, and a tenth of a second ago. >From Kevin Pearson, a pilot who has been flying so long that when he started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe. Kevin M. Pearson Vice President, Business Development St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce 3003 Frederick Ave. St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 816.232.4461 800.748.7856 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:29:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:29:41 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Bob, I have asked alot of questions from you guys, and never failed to get some honest answers. I have never gotten such a response as I have from this one. I suspect that the tune carried what ever lyrics someone felt like adding to the basic one. So, perhaps there is no definitive answer to my question. There was some Hollywood to the Movie "Twelve O:Clock High" notably, overlooking the exceptionally bitter cold that occurred at operational altitudes and the flak helmets, and other minor discrepancies. All in all it had to be the most truthful representation of the USAAF bomber campaign over Europe that I have yet to see. My mother was English and I had several occassions to see the abandoned Air fields in several parts of England when I was a kid. When Jaegger got on the old bicycle and peddled away with the strains of "Don"t Sit Under The Apple Tree" my emotions are wrenched, I feel pride, and sorrow, and many inexplicable things. Even though I was'nt there with you, I feel as though I was. Does that make any sense, Bob? Thank you, sir, for staying in touch. Lloyd Grant. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:33:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:33:58 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Dont give them up, Bill. Kevin Pearson has a vintage collection of the old songs. Yours may also worth something, if for nothing other than the Album covers. Regards, Lloyd. Bill Jones wrote: > All this talk about old songs got me thinking about a box with 3 old 78 albums I had > out in the garage. Years ago, I inherited the 78s from someone (they were given to me > because they knew I liked those songs). One of the albums was Glen Miller, another > was Louis Armstrong, and the 3rd was Phil Harris. Over the years I never played the > records because I didn't have a turntable that did 78s. > Anyway, with all this talk of old songs, I decided to pull them out and try to listen to > them somehow. Turns out, that apparently years ago, all the Glen Miller and > Armstrong records must have worn out, and were thrown away, and were replaced by > other records rather than what was indicated on the cover. All the records in the > album were some other artist I never heard of (I think the name was Trement or > something like that). I had never opened the albums to see what was inside. > Anyway, what a dissapointment. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:45:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:45:59 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Bill, Thank you on behalf of everyone who has responded, myself included of course.  Every clue is a link to the total memory.  Reference my response to Bob Hand.  I will bet there were many versions to this song and everyone who flew with the 8th AF has a verse to add.  Thanks for the referral.  I will, naturally, check it out.  Very best, Lloyd Grant.

hoytwma2 wrote:

Lloyd Oscar Brand has an album that I bought as a boy called the "Wild Blue Yonder" that was loaded with Air Force songs. My dad (Otis A Hoyt  360th Nav) didnt seem too thrilled about it but sort of  owned up to a few of the tunes. Bellow is a link to Mr Brands web site where you can order "Wild Blue Yonder" (and quite a selection of other bawdy albums). A version of "The Long and the Short and the Tall" is on the "Wild Blue Yonder"album.Bill Hoyt http://www.oscarbrand.com/order.htm  
_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:58:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:58:50 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Lloyd: You have to get Target for Today. We have discussed this in this forum before, but I would say this movie and Wylder's Memphis Belle were the most accurate from the era. 12 O'clock high was a good movie, the the script left a lot to be desired. The pics of the air base, buildings, and combat were/are exceptional, but I've never heard of a whole group wanting to transfer - just never happened. Our guys were there to do a job, and for the most part, they did it. By that I mean most of the guys did their duty. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:53 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Bob, I have asked alot of questions from you guys, and never failed to get some honest answers. I have never gotten such a response as I have from this one. I suspect that the tune carried what ever lyrics someone felt like adding to the basic one. So, perhaps there is no definitive answer to my question. There was some Hollywood to the Movie "Twelve O:Clock High" notably, overlooking the exceptionally bitter cold that occurred at operational altitudes and the flak helmets, and other minor discrepancies. All in all it had to be the most truthful representation of the USAAF bomber campaign over Europe that I have yet to see. My mother was English and I had several occassions to see the abandoned Air fields in several parts of England when I was a kid. When Jaegger got on the old bicycle and peddled away with the strains of "Don"t Sit Under The Apple Tree" my emotions are wrenched, I feel pride, and sorrow, and many inexplicable things. Even though I was'nt there with you, I feel as though I was. Does that make any sense, Bob? Thank you, sir, for staying in touch. Lloyd Grant. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:09:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:09:12 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Kevin, I have watched both, "Mission for Today" and "Memphis Belle" several times. I agree with you. I was not there with you guys, I came aboard in 1947 at Clark Field. My dad was there in "42. I grew up as an AF brat so I see many discrepancies in what really happened and the Hollywood version. My dad did'nt talk about it, and most of you don't like to bring up the memories either. I try to refrain for asking intrusive questions, but I have learned one hell of a lot from the answers you chaps have given. You all put a human face over the story that history wants to bind into its forgotten chapters. Please see my remarks to Bob Hand. Thank you for your response, sir. Very best, Lloyd. Kevin Pearson wrote: > Lloyd: You have to get Target for Today. We have discussed this in this > forum before, but I would say this movie and Wylder's Memphis Belle were the > most accurate from the era. 12 O'clock high was a good movie, the the > script left a lot to be desired. The pics of the air base, buildings, and > combat were/are exceptional, but I've never heard of a whole group wanting > to transfer - just never happened. Our guys were there to do a job, and for > the most part, they did it. By that I mean most of the guys did their duty. > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:53 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... > > Bob, I have asked alot of questions from you guys, and never failed to get > some honest answers. I have never gotten such a response as I have from > this > one. I suspect that the tune carried what ever lyrics someone felt like > adding to the basic one. So, perhaps there is no definitive answer to my > question. There was some Hollywood to the Movie "Twelve O:Clock High" > notably, overlooking the exceptionally bitter cold that occurred at > operational altitudes and the flak helmets, and other minor discrepancies. > All in all it had to be the most truthful representation of the USAAF bomber > campaign over Europe that I have yet to see. My mother was English and I > had > several occassions to see the abandoned Air fields in several parts of > England when I was a kid. When Jaegger got on the old bicycle and peddled > away with the strains of "Don"t Sit Under The Apple Tree" my emotions are > wrenched, I feel pride, and sorrow, and many inexplicable things. Even > though I was'nt there with you, I feel as though I was. Does that make any > sense, Bob? Thank you, sir, for staying in touch. Lloyd Grant. > > Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > > > ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > Why pay for something you could get for free? > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:17:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:17:15 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Rules of the Air Kevin, thanks for repeating it. I printed a copy the first time you sent it, but misplaced it. As a "Wanna Be" pilot I draw inspiration and now recognize some of the things I was doing wrong ( I always wondered why my instructor would jump out of a perfectly good aircraft without a parachute. Lloyd. Kevin Pearson wrote: > Not sure if I have sent this out before, but just in case I have not. Kevin > > Rules of the Air > > Every take-off is optional. Every landing is mandatory. > If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick > back, the houses get smaller. This is, unless you keep pulling the stick > all the way back, then the houses get bigger again. > Flying isn’t dangerous. Crashing is what’s dangerous. > It’s always better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there > wishing you were down here. > The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire. > The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot > cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot sweating. > When in doubt, hold onto your altitude. No one has ever collided with the > sky. > A “good” landing is one from which you can walk away. A “great” landing is > one after which they can use the plane again. > Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make them > all yourself. > You know you’ve landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to > the ramp. > The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of > arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice > versa. > Never let your airplane take you somewhere you brain didn’t get to five > minutes earlier. > Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be > another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also > report that mountains have also been known to hide in clouds. > Always try to keep the number of take-offs you make equal to the number of > landings. > There are three very simple rules for making a smooth landing. Only problem > is no one knows what they are. > You start the game with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. > The trick is to fill the bag with experience before you empty the bag of > luck. > Helicopters can’t fly. Yes, it’s true. They are just so ugly, the Earth > naturally repels them. > If all you can see out the windows is ground that’s going around and around, > and all you hear is commotion coming from the back of the plane, all is not > as it should be. > In the ongoing battle between aluminum objects going hundreds of miles per > hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to loose. > Good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience comes > from bad judgement. > It’s always a good idea to keep the pointy end going forward as much as > possible. > Keep looking around. There’s always something you missed. > Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It’s the law. And it is not > subject to repeal. > The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above him, the > runway behind him, and a tenth of a second ago. > > >From Kevin Pearson, a pilot who has been flying so long that when he > started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe. > > Kevin M. Pearson > Vice President, Business Development > St. Joseph Area Chamber of Commerce > 3003 Frederick Ave. > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > Phone: 816.232.4461 > 800.748.7856 > Fax: 816.364.4873 > e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:48:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:48:51 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Lloyd: Send me your personal e-mail. I'd like to chat with you about several things out of this forum. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:46 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Kevin, I have watched both, "Mission for Today" and "Memphis Belle" several times. I agree with you. I was not there with you guys, I came aboard in 1947 at Clark Field. My dad was there in "42. I grew up as an AF brat so I see many discrepancies in what really happened and the Hollywood version. My dad did'nt talk about it, and most of you don't like to bring up the memories either. I try to refrain for asking intrusive questions, but I have learned one hell of a lot from the answers you chaps have given. You all put a human face over the story that history wants to bind into its forgotten chapters. Please see my remarks to Bob Hand. Thank you for your response, sir. Very best, Lloyd. Kevin Pearson wrote: > Lloyd: You have to get Target for Today. We have discussed this in this > forum before, but I would say this movie and Wylder's Memphis Belle were the > most accurate from the era. 12 O'clock high was a good movie, the the > script left a lot to be desired. The pics of the air base, buildings, and > combat were/are exceptional, but I've never heard of a whole group wanting > to transfer - just never happened. Our guys were there to do a job, and for > the most part, they did it. By that I mean most of the guys did their duty. > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:53 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... > > Bob, I have asked alot of questions from you guys, and never failed to get > some honest answers. I have never gotten such a response as I have from > this > one. I suspect that the tune carried what ever lyrics someone felt like > adding to the basic one. So, perhaps there is no definitive answer to my > question. There was some Hollywood to the Movie "Twelve O:Clock High" > notably, overlooking the exceptionally bitter cold that occurred at > operational altitudes and the flak helmets, and other minor discrepancies. > All in all it had to be the most truthful representation of the USAAF bomber > campaign over Europe that I have yet to see. My mother was English and I > had > several occassions to see the abandoned Air fields in several parts of > England when I was a kid. When Jaegger got on the old bicycle and peddled > away with the strains of "Don"t Sit Under The Apple Tree" my emotions are > wrenched, I feel pride, and sorrow, and many inexplicable things. Even > though I was'nt there with you, I feel as though I was. Does that make any > sense, Bob? Thank you, sir, for staying in touch. Lloyd Grant. > > Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > > > ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob Hand > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > Why pay for something you could get for free? > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:06:45 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:06:45 -0600 From: Maurice Paulk mjpmtman@kdsi.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Songs to remember This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C04426.1D1C16C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Jan. of 1990 I located a number of 444th Sub-Depot members by phone = and mail.[mostly A/CSupply personnel] 12 of us got together in Sept of = 1990 at the I-80 Holiday Motel at Grand Island.'92 and '95 I attended = national reunions WE had 7 atttend after that except for '94 & 96 only 5 = showed up. '96 was "aborted" - most were coming from too far of to pay = to see 4 freinds. Mell McCoy attended two of them {Engineering Officer = with 444th Sub-Depot.] He prepared a history of the 444th for Harry = Gobrecht. I helped him with the A/C Supply end. He sent me three tapes = he obtained somewhere with the songs that were popular during ouir = "vacation in Jolly Old England". Guess maybe I'm not too durn bright -- I sold all of my 78's on a garage = sale - AFTER put them on about 7-8 tapes The tapes Mel gave me sure do = bring back a memory or two. Cheerio ! THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C04426.1D1C16C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In Jan. of 1990 I located a number = of 444th=20 Sub-Depot members by phone and mail.[mostly A/CSupply personnel] 12 of = us got=20 together in Sept of 1990 at the I-80 Holiday Motel  at Grand = Island.'92 and=20 '95 I attended national reunions WE had 7 atttend after that except for = '94=20 & 96 only 5 showed up. '96 was "aborted" - most were coming = from too=20 far of to pay to see 4 freinds.  Mell McCoy attended two of=20 them  {Engineering Officer with = 444th=20 Sub-Depot.] He  prepared a history of the 444th for Harry = Gobrecht. I helped him with the A/C Supply end. He sent me three tapes = he=20 obtained somewhere with the songs that were popular during ouir = "vacation in=20 Jolly Old England".
 
Guess maybe I'm not too durn = bright -- I sold=20 all of my 78's on a garage sale - AFTER  put them on about 7-8 = tapes The=20 tapes Mel gave me sure do bring back a memory or two.
 
Cheerio !
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C04426.1D1C16C0-- From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:31:18 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:31:18 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Thanks for your note...it was much appreciated. I've always wanted to get back to good ol' Molesworth....hopefully one day I'll make it. We have a local shop here called "12 O'Clock High" that is hip-deep in service memorabilia, from patches to combat boots. Guy who runs it was once an AC Gadget. I still have the very first record I ever bought, back in 1939...(ready for this??) Andre Kostelanetz' "Begin the Beguine"...and on the flip side "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes"....unfortunately, there's this rather deep crack.....oooops.The latter was a recurring theme in the movie "Always" about aerial fire fighters....very nice special effects. But I run on...and on....Best to You and Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:36:34 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:36:34 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Two other oldies from the era were "Silver Wings in the Moonlight".....sentimental ballad about a gal sharing a flyer's love for the sky, and the jolting "Johnny Zero", who traded scholastic zips for Nips. Bet I can remember the lyrics, if you're interested. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:48:40 EST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:48:40 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... As a 7-year-old fidgeting in my movie seat watching "Hell's Angels", something clicked inside and I knew I was hooked. Small wonder, with Howard Hughes making such acting demands and being such a sticker for realism. The flight sequences were 90% real and I get the same kick out of the film when my wife goes out shopping and I dig the tape out of the closet. Have a bunch of others too. Cheers, Bob Hand From wejones@megalink.net Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:04:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:04:36 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller position when planes are parked? Perhaps a dumb question, but among my father's pictures is a picture of Randolph Field Texas training field, with about a hundred BT-13 trainers all lined up waiting for the trainees to fly off in (the picture is on my web page BTW). Every single propeller of all the planes is at exactly the same angle. I thought that this must have just been some co-incidence that due to cylinder pressure, that must be just the most likely place for the prop to come to rest. However a few weeks ago, the "Aluminum Overcast" B-17 came through town on a tour, and I watched the plane take off and land while taking people for a ride. When they brought the plane in to park, the pilot got out, and one by one, moved each propeller to the same orientation, by hand. Question is, why. Are they moving them to a position where the starting motor doesn't have to work so hard to get the thing moving when they start it next time, or is it just to make them look neat? Another quick question.... I assumed above that there was a starting motor, but I remember a movie, The Flight of the Phoenix, where they started the plane with some kind of propellant cylinders or something like that. Could someone comment on what they were, and if B-17s used such things? Just curious. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:29:54 EST Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:29:54 EST From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller position when planes are parked? Bill: Probably if all the propellers were lined up it was to make them look neat' In a one or two cylinder engine they might stop in the same position most of the time. but its been a long time since these were in any military aircraft If you had a wood propeller you would want if horizontal if it was going to be parked a while to keep the moisture in the wood from going to the lower blade and causing an unbalance. You might want a metal prop horizontal so a wing of another plane could pass over or under it like pushing them around on the ramp or in a hanger. I have to go now but will go over the starters with you when I get home tonight if someone has not given you a satisfactory answer. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 02 Nov 2000 09:22:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 09:22:28 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... Kevin, html Palidin@netzero.net Kevin Pearson wrote: > Lloyd: Send me your personal e-mail. I'd like to chat with you about > several things out of this forum. > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:46 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... > > Kevin, I have watched both, "Mission for Today" and "Memphis Belle" several > times. I agree with you. I was not there with you guys, I came aboard in > 1947 > at Clark Field. My dad was there in "42. I grew up as an AF brat so I see > many > discrepancies in what really happened and the Hollywood version. My dad > did'nt > talk about it, and most of you don't like to bring up the memories either. > I > try to refrain for asking intrusive questions, but I have learned one hell > of a > lot from the answers you chaps have given. You all put a human face over > the > story that history wants to bind into its forgotten chapters. Please see my > remarks to Bob Hand. Thank you for your response, sir. Very best, Lloyd. > > Kevin Pearson wrote: > > > Lloyd: You have to get Target for Today. We have discussed this in this > > forum before, but I would say this movie and Wylder's Memphis Belle were > the > > most accurate from the era. 12 O'clock high was a good movie, the the > > script left a lot to be desired. The pics of the air base, buildings, and > > combat were/are exceptional, but I've never heard of a whole group wanting > > to transfer - just never happened. Our guys were there to do a job, and > for > > the most part, they did it. By that I mean most of the guys did their > duty. > > Kevin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:53 PM > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] The long and the short and the tall... > > > > Bob, I have asked alot of questions from you guys, and never failed to get > > some honest answers. I have never gotten such a response as I have from > > this > > one. I suspect that the tune carried what ever lyrics someone felt like > > adding to the basic one. So, perhaps there is no definitive answer to my > > question. There was some Hollywood to the Movie "Twelve O:Clock High" > > notably, overlooking the exceptionally bitter cold that occurred at > > operational altitudes and the flak helmets, and other minor discrepancies. > > All in all it had to be the most truthful representation of the USAAF > bomber > > campaign over Europe that I have yet to see. My mother was English and I > > had > > several occassions to see the abandoned Air fields in several parts of > > England when I was a kid. When Jaegger got on the old bicycle and > peddled > > away with the strains of "Don"t Sit Under The Apple Tree" my emotions are > > wrenched, I feel pride, and sorrow, and many inexplicable things. Even > > though I was'nt there with you, I feel as though I was. Does that make > any > > sense, Bob? Thank you, sir, for staying in touch. Lloyd Grant. > > > > Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > > > > > ......and "I'll Walk Alone"....so many memorable songs. Cheers, Bob > Hand > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Why pay for something you could get for free? > > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ > Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 > ___________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From glm@303rd.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:03:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:03:07 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rd.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Bless 'Em All ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: RORY50@webtv.net (B 17 PILOT) Date sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:54:45 -0500 (EST) To: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdbga.com Subject: Bless 'Em All Bless 'Em All Now they say there's a troopship just leaving Bombay, bound for old Blighty's shore Heavily laden with time expired men, bound for the land they adore. There's many an airman just finishing his time, there's many a twerp signing on. You'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up my lads, Bless ',em All. Bless em All, Bless em All, the long and the short and the tall Bless all the sergeants and W. O. ones, Bless all the corp'rals and their blinkin sons, 'Cos we're saying goodbye to them all, as back to their billets they crawl You'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up my ads, Bless'em All Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall, Bless all the sentries with their knobbly knees They look full of joy as they stand there and freeze, And if you ask him how does he feel It'd freeze a brass monkey he'll bawl. But you'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, So cheer up my lads, Bless 'em All. La, la etc. Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall, Bless all the A.T.S. girls nice and bright Especially the big 'un I took out last night I'd to stand on a couple of bricks To kiss her 'cos she was so tall But she got the notion I wanted promotion So cheer up my lads, Bless 'em All. La, la etc. Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall Bless the M. O. who's a doctor we hope When we feel queer he just hands us some dope, And it makes us sing run rabbit run Now where we go to, we don't crawl. But you'll get no promotion this side of the ocean So cheer up my lads, Bless 'em all. Nobody knows what a twerp you've been, so cheer up my lads ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Wmjdallas@aol.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:21:52 EST Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:21:52 EST From: Wmjdallas@aol.com Wmjdallas@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #77 - 10 msgs In a message dated 11/2/00 8:41:40 AM Central Standard Time, 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: Just after I arrived at Molesworth,January 1944, our crew, Mars, and two other crews from the Group were sent to fly some formation to be filmed. We were in echelon, not a V and I remember the cameraman or other film person wanted us, the far right airplane to move up six inches. With a very slight back pressure then release he said it was fine. I see this film clip in almost ever movie and some official films. It was not a combat formation for bombers and I do not recall why we were in that type of formation. I wonder if anyone out there was on that flight also. Bill Dallas From glm@303rdBGA.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:30:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:30:08 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) " Might in Flight" ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Send reply to: From: "Bruce/Lois Brown" To: "303rd Talk Group \(E-mail\)" <303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com> Subject: " Might in Flight" Date sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:26:15 -0500 You may know this volume is out of print and very difficult to locate. After trying internet book searches to no avail, I turned to our Public Library system for help. About three weeks went by. Then I received a call from our local branch. To my astonishment, the volume was in. It had come all the way to Pittsford, NY (Rochester) from Lubbock, TX. Isn't that amazing? I have kept it for ten days. Having retrieved the information I was looking for (my brother Howard Weinberg's only mission -- his was one of the 427th B17s that collided April 6, 1945 on the way to Leipzig), I am returning the volume today. If YOU want to read this book next, ask your Public Library to get it for you. Some old fashioned methods still work! Lois Brown ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From owen26@tucomm.net Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:10:19 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:10:19 -0600 From: Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) " Might in Flight" Lois, I'm glad that you were able to get the copy of MIGHT IN FLIGHT from your library. I did the same thing here in Tyler, Texas. I got the very same book that you did from Texas Tech University library in Lubbock. That is a very well traveled book. I copied a lot of info from it also concerning my brother's crew. I know of others who have used the inter library loan to get to read the book also. So those of you out there that want to read the book, ask your library to try to find it for you. It really works .... Bill Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Moncur" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) " Might in Flight" > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > Send reply to: > From: "Bruce/Lois Brown" > To: "303rd Talk Group \(E-mail\)" <303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: " Might in Flight" > Date sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:26:15 -0500 > > You may know this volume is out of print and very difficult to locate. > > After trying internet book searches to no avail, I turned to our Public > Library system for help. About three weeks went by. Then I received a call > from our local branch. To my astonishment, the volume was in. It had come > all the way to Pittsford, NY (Rochester) from Lubbock, TX. Isn't that > amazing? > > I have kept it for ten days. Having retrieved the information I was looking > for (my brother Howard Weinberg's only mission -- his was one of the 427th > B17s that collided April 6, 1945 on the way to Leipzig), I am returning the > volume today. > > If YOU want to read this book next, ask your Public Library to get it for > you. Some old fashioned methods still work! > > Lois Brown > > > > > > > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:48:49 EST Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:48:49 EST From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller position when planes are parked? Bill Jones I think you will find that most 4 and 6 cylinder aircraft engines have a direct drive starter very similar to those used in most automotive engines. An electric motor when energized by the starter switch turns and within a few revolutions engages a gear into a gear in the flywheel and turns the engine until it starts firing. In most larger engines the electric starting motor engages a fly wheel and brings it up to a high RPM. When the flywheel reaches the desired RPM an electric switch or mechanical lever engages both the flywheel and the electric motor and turns the engine until it either starts or the fly wheel slows down until it no longer has enough energy to turn the engine fast enough for it to start. The B17 used this type of starter as did most aircraft with engines in this general size. Some applications used a hand crank to bring the starting fly wheel up to speed and then engage it with a hand operated lever This was used in most of the trainers like a Stearman PT17. Some applications used an explosive device like a big shotgun shell with no pellets in it and when it was fired into a closed chamber the pressure there in was used to spin the engine until it started or the pressure was dissipated and another shell would have to be loaded and fired. I can remember no personal experience with this type and might think it was used more by navy aircraft which I never flew as I don't have web feet the last time I looked. . Propellers were pulled through at lest 2 complete revolutions before starting mostly to be sure there was no oil in a cylinder head when it came up on a compression stroke while the starter was cranking the engine over. Now you know every thing I know so if you ask me anymore questions I will be glad to make up the best answer I can think (dream) up for you. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From glm@303rdBGA.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:05:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:05:19 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] AAF Officer Qualification Record Hi Gang, I have just added my dad's AAF Officer Qualification Record to the Thunderbird page here: http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/moncur-qualification.html On the bottom of Page 2 (box 34) it shows him as "Qualified in Map and Aerial Photography Interpretation" Was that routine for pilots, or did he have some special training? Thanks, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From thollritt@yahoo.com Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:06:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:06:41 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position As far as propeller position goes I think it was a military standard. Both AAF and USN aircraft always seem to be parked with prop blades in a standard position. Plus for safety sake it makes sense to store your A/C that way. Three bladed A/C single blade down in the Y position, four bladed in the X position. Plus it makes the plane look uniform (Y Y Y Y) non-uniform ( -< Y >- -< ) See :) I remember when the first B-17 landed over here in NJ back in the late 70's and the crew just parked the thing. I just had to sneak out to the Fortress that night and line up the props. It ain't easy pulling those props through. Todd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From CDouglasN@aol.com Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:18:34 EST Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:18:34 EST From: CDouglasN@aol.com CDouglasN@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position >From what I understand, most modern piston engines are geared specifically to come to rest with the (2-bladed) prop in the vertical position. This is to prevent, or at least lessen the chance of someone turning the engine over by accident and possibly start it. I guess if its vertical there's less of a chance of someone leaning on it or something stupid like that. As far as 3 or 4 blade props and radials go though, I can't comment. The limit of my knowledge extends to light, modern singles. Chuck From Sgarrick@qwest.net Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:10:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:10:50 -0700 From: Steve Garrick and Barbie Jones Sgarrick@qwest.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] October 28th, 2000 --------------0C77BE46D90DB61612AAEBA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am Lloyd Shirley's Granddaughter Barbie. I just thought I would let you all know that he passed away on October 28th, 2000 of Lung Cancer. He will be missed more than ever, he was my best friend and I love him so. His burial is Friday November 3rd at Tucson Arizona at 3:00 P.M., say a prayer, thanks Barbie --------------0C77BE46D90DB61612AAEBA2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello,

I am Lloyd Shirley's Granddaughter Barbie. I just thought I would let you all know that he passed away on October 28th, 2000 of Lung Cancer. He will be missed more than ever, he was my best friend and I love him so. His burial is Friday November 3rd at Tucson Arizona at 3:00 P.M., say a prayer, thanks
Barbie --------------0C77BE46D90DB61612AAEBA2-- From wejones@megalink.net Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:19:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:19:48 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position > As far as propeller position goes I think it was a > military standard. Both AAF and USN aircraft always > seem to be parked with prop blades in a standard > position. BTW, the picture that made me wonder about this question is at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/randfld1.jpg This is a picture of an AAF training facility at Randolph Field Texas in Feb 42. Interestingly, out of all the planes in the picture, the only one with it's prop at an angle is the one that the instructor is standing on. Perhaps that was the next lesson. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From Bhandsr@aol.com Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:20:44 EST Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:20:44 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] October 28th, 2000 Barbie, our sympathies and love go to you on the loss of your Grandfather. Bob and Nyela Hand 303BG,360 SQ. From palidin@netzero.net Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:18:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:18:27 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Bless 'Em All Gary, I got many replies to this question, and a lot of snippets, but you've sent the version I remember that my dad used to sing. It sounds like it had more of a British origin. In any case, thank you and everyone that contributed. Very best to all, Lloyd Grant. Gary Moncur wrote: > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: RORY50@webtv.net (B 17 PILOT) > Date sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:54:45 -0500 (EST) > To: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdbga.com > Subject: Bless 'Em All > > Bless 'Em All > Now they say there's a troopship just leaving Bombay, bound for old > Blighty's shore > Heavily laden with time expired men, bound for the land they adore. > There's many an airman just finishing his time, there's many a twerp > signing on. > You'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up my lads, > Bless ',em All. > Bless em All, Bless em All, the long and the short and the tall Bless > all the sergeants and W. O. ones, > Bless all the corp'rals and their blinkin sons, 'Cos we're saying > goodbye to them all, as back to their billets they crawl You'll get no > promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up my ads, Bless'em All > Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall, Bless > all the sentries with their knobbly knees They look full of joy as they > stand there and freeze, And if you ask him how does he feel > It'd freeze a brass monkey he'll bawl. > But you'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, So cheer up my lads, > Bless 'em All. > La, la etc. > Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall, Bless > all the A.T.S. girls nice and bright Especially the big 'un I took out > last night I'd to stand on a couple of bricks > To kiss her 'cos she was so tall > But she got the notion I wanted promotion So cheer up my lads, Bless 'em > All. > La, la etc. > Bless 'em All, Bless 'em All, the long and the short and the tall Bless > the M. O. who's a doctor we hope > When we feel queer he just hands us some dope, And it makes us sing run > rabbit run > Now where we go to, we don't crawl. > But you'll get no promotion this side of the ocean So cheer up my lads, > Bless 'em all. > Nobody knows what a twerp you've been, so cheer up my lads > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:52:18 -0600 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:52:18 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position These are two excellent questions! Allow me to add my two cents. 1. Sentimental Journey was in Atchison, Kansas, a couple of weeks ago and I watched her land. She parked, and as soon as her crew got out, they, too, pulled the props through. I asked the Flight Engineer why he was doing this and this is what he told me. Some of these engines are mighty old, in fact, this B-17 had two Pratt and Whitney radials, not the R1820-97s Wright Cyclones found in G variants. When the engine is shut down, oil seeps into the bottom cyclinders of the radial. By pulling the props through, this oil drains out the exhaust mainifold. Since liquids are not compressable, if they were to start the engines with oil in the cylinders, they would blow a cylinder head. 2. In Flight of the Phoenix, they used a Cauffman starter - and used something very similar to a large, blank shot gun shell. The force of the expanding gases from the cartridge turned the engine in a similar fashion at exploding fuel vapor. I am not aware of any Fortresses equipped with such a device, but they may have existed. It is very difficult to make blanket statements like this because so may field modifications took place at Strategic and Base Air Depots (SADs and BADs). 3. By and large, Fortresses operating in the ETO did not have suffiecient battery power to turn the starters for very long. An Auxillary Power Unit (APU), know as a "put put" by air crews because of the tractor like noise they made, were plugged into the Forts and used to start them. Why? Batteries added weight. Less weight, more fuel or bomb load. There were Forts that were equipped with more batteries, especially the early variants and those that were relegated to other duties besides combat, i.e - ferrying squadrons. But, and this is important, FOR THE MOST PART, F and G variants were not equipped with sufficient battery power to turn the starters for more than nine or twelve blades (three or four complete revolutions of the propellor). Of course, once one engine was started and driving the DC generator (which was connected to the AC inverter), this power could then be used to start the other engines. Kevin M. Pearson From Sgarrick@qwest.net Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:06:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:06:07 -0700 From: Steve Garrick and Barbie Jones Sgarrick@qwest.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction --------------82DE933A8094359C440DD2F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, my name is Barbie Jones, I live in Tucson Arizona and I subscribed to this site in memory of my Granddad Loyd A. Shirley. Today he was put to rest, the saddest day of my life. So, I wanted to be a part of the 303rd to help keep him close to me. Barbie --------------82DE933A8094359C440DD2F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Hello, my name is Barbie Jones, I live in Tucson Arizona and I subscribed to this site in memory of my Granddad Loyd A. Shirley. Today he was put to rest, the saddest day of my life. So, I wanted to be a part of the 303rd to help keep him close to me.
Barbie --------------82DE933A8094359C440DD2F8-- From Tuscan_Diamonds@themail.com Sat, 04 Nov 2000 14:12:04 +0000 Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 14:12:04 +0000 From: Henry Tuscan Tuscan_Diamonds@themail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Diamonds! This Business WILL make you money!NEW and very Lucrative. DIAMONDS! Did you know that Diamonds really ARE for ever? Of course you did, anyone, anywhere in this great big world knows this fact, but did you know that contrary to what some people say, industrial diamonds (raw uncut variety) have the best chance to make the ordinary man a fortune if they go about this business in the correct way! We here at Tuscan Diamonds have for the last 18 years traded in Industrial Diamonds. The goods are purchased for around $25 for an eight of a carrot and sold (when cleaned) for $800 per quarter of a carrot. (this profit margin is the usual one) As the world is getting larger through the Internet and wanting not to be left behind, we have decided to offer our own unique business plan to a wider audience than we would normally have been able to. The plan is thus, We will purchase on the subscribers behalf, Industrial Diamonds at the regular price of which we can purchase for over here in Denmark (our business is in New York, but we purchase in Europe) and via the Internet allow people to buy units (a quarter of a carrot) for $50 or a half carrot at $100. Then when cleaned up they will fetch around the regular price of $800 per $50, or approx $1,800 per $100 invested. This is what is paid back to you (the investor) Everyone will receive a certificate of unit purchase approx 8 days after we receive your payment. We also make a small profit on every purchase that we make in your name. We at Tuscan Diamonds will make an excess of around $400 per Diamond so that's the reason why we are confident we can make a profit for everyone concerned! The way for you to buy unit's is through the media of E-gold. As this payment plan is wide-ranging and International we feel it's the best way to conduct our business. If you do not have an E-gold account, go to: www.e-gold.com and it's very straight forward and easy to open up an account with them. Our e-gold account number is: 161930 and our only E-mail address is: Tuscan_Diamonds@themail.com We will endeavor to answer your questions straight away if possible but we will not get into any dialogue that is long and drawn out as we have a business to run and profits to be made, as you will understand. To apply for any units that you may like to take out, just follow these simple guidelines: Go to e-gold, make your purchase of units ($50 or $100) place your E-mail address in the Memo section and straight away send an E-mail to the E-mail address above, stating how much and how many units you have purchased. Usually it takes 2 weeks to buy, clean, and then move them on to the vast number of buyers. Everyone will be paid into their accounts, all the monies that they are due in that time scale and at the percentage that is referred to above. ie. $50=$800, $100=$1,800. (these are the only rates that we offer) This is a very rewarding business to be involved in and very lucrative as the market for Industrial Diamonds will be ongoing for a very long time as the world ALWAYS needs them (the business is overshadowed by the more lucrative but expensive show diamond trade, but there are vast profits to be made in our special part of the trade) We do hope to hear from you soon and ALL business is traded in STRICT PRIVACY! We will NOT disclose ANY DETAILS of anyone who buys, to ANYONE ELSE! this is STRICTLY ADHERED to at ALL Times! All the best to you, Henry Tuscan. Chief Buyer. Tuscan Diamonds Inc. From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:43:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:43:02 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Bobbie Jones, please accept our deepest sympathy on your loss. Our thoughts and prayers are with you during this most trying of times.. Lou and Rosemary b-17.jpg From billrunnels@juno.com Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0600 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0600 From: Billy L Runnels billrunnels@juno.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] trailing antenna B-17 To the B-17 radio operators, what was the maximum length of the trailing antenna and how much did the brass fish weigh on the end? bill runnels From wejones@megalink.net Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:36:25 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:36:25 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] trailing antenna B-17 > To the B-17 radio operators, what was the maximum length of the trailing > antenna and how much did the brass fish weigh on the end? > I hope to see an answer to the above too, but I wanted to add a question. There was a discussion recently in another list about the antennas that appear in the current reproduction B -17s, that are wires between the axe handle behind the radio compartment and the top of the tail. In all the pictures I have of actual B-17s from the 303rd back during the war, I cannot see this antenna. It is possible that the resolution in these pictures is not good enough to see a wire, but several of the pictures are quite good, and none show this antenna. Can anyone comment on whether this antenna was really used back during the war? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From IBSPEC@aol.com Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:38:15 EST Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:38:15 EST From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] trailing antenna B-17 when we flew out of goose bay labrador we had wac panties fying from that antenna cable above fuselage. they were the 1st contingent that had arrived there. we had ill crew membner and were there couple days and had visits in fire hydrant houses. From thollritt@yahoo.com Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:53:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:53:50 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position It's always intresting to watch the preparations as the restored B-17's get ready to fly. I always wondered if that little fire extingisher the ground crew shows up with could really control any fire if it were to break out. Some of those radials really spit the avgas. Plus they are soaked with oil to boot! Todd- > From: "Kevin Pearson" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position > Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:52:18 -0600 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > These are two excellent questions! Allow me to add > my two cents. > 1. Sentimental Journey was in Atchison, Kansas, a > couple of weeks ago and I > watched her land. She parked, and as soon as her > crew got out, they, too, > pulled the props through. I asked the Flight > Engineer why he was doing this > and this is what he told me. Some of these engines > are mighty old, in fact, > this B-17 had two Pratt and Whitney radials, not the > R1820-97s Wright > Cyclones found in G variants. When the engine is > shut down, oil seeps into > the bottom cyclinders of the radial. By pulling the > props through, this oil > drains out the exhaust mainifold. Since liquids are > not compressable, if > they were to start the engines with oil in the > cylinders, they would blow a > cylinder head. > 2. In Flight of the Phoenix, they used a Cauffman > starter - and used > something very similar to a large, blank shot gun > shell. The force of the > expanding gases from the cartridge turned the engine > in a similar fashion at > exploding fuel vapor. I am not aware of any > Fortresses equipped with such a > device, but they may have existed. It is very > difficult to make blanket > statements like this because so may field > modifications took place at > Strategic and Base Air Depots (SADs and BADs). > 3. By and large, Fortresses operating in the ETO > did not have suffiecient > battery power to turn the starters for very long. An > Auxillary Power Unit > (APU), know as a "put put" by air crews because of > the tractor like noise > they made, were plugged into the Forts and used to > start them. Why? > Batteries added weight. Less weight, more fuel or > bomb load. There were > Forts that were equipped with more batteries, > especially the early variants > and those that were relegated to other duties > besides combat, i.e - ferrying > squadrons. But, and this is important, FOR THE MOST > PART, F and G variants > were not equipped with sufficient battery power to > turn the starters for > more than nine or twelve blades (three or four > complete revolutions of the > propellor). Of course, once one engine was started > and driving the DC > generator (which was connected to the AC inverter), > this power could then be > used to start the other engines. > Kevin M. Pearson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:44:48 EST Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:44:48 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Todd, you might be interested in this as I was. Tucked away on p.81 of the current mailing from Historic Aviation Books, Videos, etc., is an ad for "Round Sounds Vol.2 which includes the sound of a B-17 coming to life on the hardstand....other t racks include Constellation, Sea Fury, T-28, etc. As a Fortress nut, I have got to have this soundtrack, don't know about anybody else. Their 800 number is 225-5575. Hope all goes well with you......Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, (Capt.USAF/Ret.) HAND ENTERPRISES P. O. Box 740812 Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ From wejones@megalink.net Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:50:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:50:42 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] what was "casual pool" Subject asks the question. In reading the microfilm records I have, I've seen references to several pilots being placed in something called the "casual pool". In at least some of the cases that I saw, the pilots had flown several missions in a short time, then once placed in the casual pool, didn't fly for a while, and then only occasionally. Was this sort of a "spare" category, where the person wasn't flying on a regular basis, but instead only when another pilot was sick or injured, and needed a replacement? I'm curious about this partly because I am wondering about what status my father might have been in when he first reported to Molesworth. He reported to molesworth in late August of 44, but only flew one mission between August and December, when he started flying on a regular basis. He did not arrive at Molesworth as part of a crew, so I assume that was a factor. I am wondering whether because he didn't arrive as part of another crew, that he was possibly placed in this casual pool category when he arrived, and only flew when replacements were needed? What other jobs would a pilot (a Captain in his case) be given if he was not flying? I'm just trying to figure out what he might have been doing during the August thru November period before he started flying regularly. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From gordy@saltspring.com Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:52:22 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:52:22 -0800 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] what was "casual pool" I wonder if this applied to the other positions, such as gunners, RO, etc. Dad told me he used to dress and go out to the flight line hoping to pick up a mission or two, because his crew had been divided up with experienced crews, to start with. The day they all got back together, he and the rest all had a few missions under their belts. It didn't help. They got shot down the first time they were all back together, on Oct 4, '43, on the mission to Frankfurt. Gordy Alton, 91BGMA ********************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jones" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:50 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] what was "casual pool" > Subject asks the question. In reading the microfilm records I have, I've seen > references to several pilots being placed in something called the "casual pool". In at > least some of the cases that I saw, the pilots had flown several missions in a short > time, then once placed in the casual pool, didn't fly for a while, and then only > occasionally. Was this sort of a "spare" category, where the person wasn't flying on a > regular basis, but instead only when another pilot was sick or injured, and needed a > replacement? > I'm curious about this partly because I am wondering about what status my father > might have been in when he first reported to Molesworth. He reported to molesworth in > late August of 44, but only flew one mission between August and December, when he > started flying on a regular basis. He did not arrive at Molesworth as part of a crew, so I > assume that was a factor. I am wondering whether because he didn't arrive as part of > another crew, that he was possibly placed in this casual pool category when he > arrived, and only flew when replacements were needed? > What other jobs would a pilot (a Captain in his case) be given if he was not flying? > I'm just trying to figure out what he might have been doing during the August thru > November period before he started flying regularly. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:21:35 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:21:35 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Hey guys! Bob I have Round Sounds and highly recommend it. There is a better one I purchsed at Duxford at the Spitfire Airshow last year, but I do not have it here at the office. I'll bring it in tomorrow and let you know the name and ISPN. In an effort to better distinguish Parkard-built Griffons from Rolls-Royce-built Merlins, I got this CD. It even has a Daimler-Benz from a 109 winding up. It has a flyby of almost every warbird from the era, with two from B-17s, ground start-up and flyby. Kevin Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:52 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Todd, you might be interested in this as I was. Tucked away on p.81 of the current mailing from Historic Aviation Books, Videos, etc., is an ad for "Round Sounds Vol.2 which includes the sound of a B-17 coming to life on the hardstand....other t racks include Constellation, Sea Fury, T-28, etc. As a Fortress nut, I have got to have this soundtrack, don't know about anybody else. Their 800 number is 225-5575. Hope all goes well with you......Cheers, Bob Hand Bob Hand, (Capt.USAF/Ret.) HAND ENTERPRISES P. O. Box 740812 Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 Web: http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From gordy@saltspring.com Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:00:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:00:23 -0800 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Windy City I read this interesting email, and thought I would pass it on. I notice that there was once a plane in the 303rd that was called Windy City Avenger. This one was called, "Windy City" only, but these are old facts. Anybody able to help this lady? Gordy Alton tailgunnerson **************************** Please send all info/replies to mylonnie@pacbell.net directly. Thank You and have a GREAT Week! Doug ----- Original Message ----- >From: mylonnie@pacbell.net >Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 22:04:37 -0800 >Subject: The Windy City >To: bstane@earthlink.net > >Hello, > >My father was station in Belfast Ireland, and flew missions from that >area. He was in love with the B-17, and after the War in 1947, he went >to the Mojave Desert and brought back a B-17, and rebuilt the plane >partly in a converted barn at our ranch near Claremont and then at the >Chino Airport. I was 8 years old at the time, but I remember a >beautiful blonde on a wind cloud painted on the side of the plane, near >the cockpit window. On the bombardier seat was dried blood and the glass >had been shattered. My cousin was studying medicine at UCLA and he took >samples and told my Dad it was definitely blood. There was written >above the seat "Big Indian Red". If I can remember, the plane flew in >the Pacific. My Dad worked for Lockheed in Ontario California and was a >great mechanic and designer. This was of five planes he restored. He >also designed and worked on the fighter jet that was used in Korea and >later. He later sold The Windy City and it was stored at Burbank >Airport in the 1950's. Have you ever heard of the "Windy City" or >whatever happened to her? My Dad was Edwin Pullen and he was born in >Covington Tennessee in 1901. He died in 1982. > >Thank you, > >Rita Pullen Swift e mail address: mylonnie@pacbell.net From glm@303rdBGA.com Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:49:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:49:47 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Windy City Looking through the book "Final Cut" the only surviving B-17 that seemed like a possibiltiy to me is a B-17F now at Offutt AFB, Nebraska. If you have "Final Cut" look on page 58. B-17F 42-3374 was transferred to MGM in 1945 for use in a film "Footprints in the Sky" which was never produced. It was placed in storage at MGM in Culver City for 25 years, then transferred to the Chino airport. From there it went to Beale (1982) then Offutt (1989). If this is a possibility, I'll give you more info. > >My father was station in Belfast Ireland, and flew missions from that > >area. He was in love with the B-17, and after the War in 1947, he > went > >to the Mojave Desert and brought back a B-17, and rebuilt the plane > >partly in a converted barn at our ranch near Claremont and then at - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:59:54 EST Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:59:54 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position My son gave me "Round Sounds I" for my last birthday along with the book "Slipping the Surly Bonds (McGraw-Hill) by Dave English, which contains great quotations on Flight, which I treasure (especially the inscription!) Would appreciate having the name of the tape you referred to.....can't hint too early to Santa. Have a good one....Cheers, Bob Hand. From ddrewry@mail.mainland.cc.tx.us Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:47:20 -0600 Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:47:20 -0600 From: Duke Drewry ddrewry@mail.mainland.cc.tx.us Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction Barbie, my sympathy to you and your family. My dad passed away 4 years = ago this month and remember it seeming harder on his grandchildren most of = all. I have mailed off an application for personalized plates for my car = to read "Old 99" which was the name of one of the planes he flew. = Hopefully someday someone will see it and have good thoughts or even stop = to talk after recognizing it as the name of a B`17. Duke Drewry From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:02:15 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:02:15 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Did anyone see the three hour interview on C-Span Saturday? Ambrose as on for three hours and it was spectacular. What a remarkable guy! Kevin From mail148779@pop.net Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:30:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:30:10 -0500 From: Matt Petersen mail148779@pop.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions 1) Does anyone recall a plane called "Fat Fanny"? 2) My fathers A-2 jacket has two patches sewn on. On the right breast is emblem of the 358th and on the left is a picture of a vulture holding a torch. I know it has to do with the pathfinders but is it British or American? I thought my father once told me he flew a mission with the British pathfinders and that is how he received the patch. 3) Does anyone recall going on a mission and landing in the Soviet Union? From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:45:49 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:45:49 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions I can reply to the last question. Poltavia was a shuttle mission for the Eighth, that is, they bombed their targets, then headed to Poltavia. The Germans attacked and destroyed many of the Forts that were parked there and the Russians were not overly friendly with the Americans. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Matt Petersen Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 10:39 AM To: 303rd Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions 1) Does anyone recall a plane called "Fat Fanny"? 2) My fathers A-2 jacket has two patches sewn on. On the right breast is emblem of the 358th and on the left is a picture of a vulture holding a torch. I know it has to do with the pathfinders but is it British or American? I thought my father once told me he flew a mission with the British pathfinders and that is how he received the patch. 3) Does anyone recall going on a mission and landing in the Soviet Union? _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:54:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:54:41 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Evidently you did not hear the remarks by Ambrose at the opening of the D-Day museum in New Orleans on June 6, 2000 when he blamed the high loss of life by the ground troops to the unsufficient air support by the U. S. Air Forces. There were no German Aircraft over the Normandy Beaches on D-Day. Nor did he mention the thousands of lives lost by the Air forces from 1942 unil D-Day to make sure we had air superiority over the beaches. I flew my first mission with the 303rd 180 days before D-Day. World War II was won because of the sacrifices made by all the men and women of all the Allied Forces. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:16:35 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:16:35 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose I must take exception to your remarks. There were high losses of life because the Air Corps did not hit their targets at Omaha Beach, or if they did, the fortifications were so strong they could withstand a direct hit by a 500-pound, M-44, general purpose, demolition bomb. At Omaha, bombs fell far behind the defensive line and naval gunfire did not adequately make up for what the Air Force failed to accomplish. Have you read, "D-Day, The 6th of June." Ambrose describes these bombing errors in detail. Sorry to have to say this, but history is history, whether we like the end result or not. And you are correct, when it comes to D-Day, the AAC is often overlooked. They were seriously overlooked on the 50th Aniversary cerimonies at Omaha. And World War II was won by ALL of the men and woman in uniform, and even all those that weren't. Every single American during the war years sacrificed in some fashion, be it in the factory as a Rosie the Riviter or children in the scrap drives - kids who saved pennies to buy War Bonds. To say the AAC won the war is just plain wrong, they made a SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION, but it was the combined efforts of everyone, even our Allies, that finished the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan. How does everyone else feel about these two issues. I think I'm going to get beat up pretty badly for my stance on these. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 4:04 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Evidently you did not hear the remarks by Ambrose at the opening of the D-Day museum in New Orleans on June 6, 2000 when he blamed the high loss of life by the ground troops to the unsufficient air support by the U. S. Air Forces. There were no German Aircraft over the Normandy Beaches on D-Day. Nor did he mention the thousands of lives lost by the Air forces from 1942 unil D-Day to make sure we had air superiority over the beaches. I flew my first mission with the 303rd 180 days before D-Day. World War II was won because of the sacrifices made by all the men and women of all the Allied Forces. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From BeigelWD@aol.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:54:08 EST Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:54:08 EST From: BeigelWD@aol.com BeigelWD@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose I believe he is currently working on a book on the 15th AAF. Should be a good read. I am new to this list; my interest goes back to an old family story. My dad had a cousin who lived with him in Detroit. In 1943, his cousin left with his crew in a B-17 flying the northern route to Great Britain. Somewhere over the North Atlantic, on or about 6/21/43, the aircraft disappeared (the loss was the subject of one of the first Missing Air Crew Reports, MACR # 3). I've always been fascinated with the "heavies" from WW2. My respect for the fliers of those planes is boundless. Best regards, Bill William L. Beigel Torrance, CA (310) 791-3949 From geofr@erols.com Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:02:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:02:26 -0500 From: George geofr@erols.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smithsonian institute On a visit there, I was suprised to see in thje WW11 room a painting of a B-17 on the wall with a triangle C on the tail. This was some 3 years ago but I hope it is still there. I am a new visiter and found the site by accident. I flew for the 427th Sq. from Jan 44 to May 44. Seems one of my crew posted our crew picture. James Melton was our pilot and our plane was the Betty Jane. >From thi site I see it was lost in August 44. Have sent in my membership fee today and look forward to some interesting talks. Harry George Frechter (Have dropped the Harry these last 50 years and go by George) George Frechter From glm@303rdBGA.com Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:20:03 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:20:03 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Smithsonian institute George, I'm delighted you found us and have joined the Association. The B- 17 Mural you mentioned is still there. It is the Keith Ferris Mural of Thunderbird. My dad was the first pilot of Thunderbird and I have a whole web page dedicated to Thunderbird and her crews. The Thudnerbird page is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/ The mural shot is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/thunderbird/ferris.html I hope to see that mural for the first time next year at the next 303rd reunion in Baltimore. Glad to have you aboard! > On a visit there, I was suprised to see in thje WW11 room a painting of > a B-17 on the wall with a triangle C on the tail. This was some 3 years > ago but I hope it is still there. > I am a new visiter and found the site by accident. > I flew for the 427th Sq. from Jan 44 to May 44. > Seems one of my crew posted our crew picture. > James Melton was our pilot and our plane was the Betty Jane. > >From thi site I see it was lost in August 44. > Have sent in my membership fee today and look forward to some > interesting talks. > > Harry George Frechter (Have dropped the Harry these last 50 years and go > by George) > > George Frechter - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From palidin@netzero.net Mon, 06 Nov 2000 23:10:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 23:10:28 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Roger that , as respects your comments about the failed bombing on D-Day, and a hell of a lot of people forget about the Merchant Marine contribution to the winning of the War. Best, Kevin, Lloyd. Kevin Pearson wrote: > I must take exception to your remarks. There were high losses of life > because the Air Corps did not hit their targets at Omaha Beach, or if they > did, the fortifications were so strong they could withstand a direct hit by > a 500-pound, M-44, general purpose, demolition bomb. At Omaha, bombs fell > far behind the defensive line and naval gunfire did not adequately make up > for what the Air Force failed to accomplish. Have you read, "D-Day, The 6th > of June." Ambrose describes these bombing errors in detail. Sorry to have > to say this, but history is history, whether we like the end result or not. > And you are correct, when it comes to D-Day, the AAC is often overlooked. > They were seriously overlooked on the 50th Aniversary cerimonies at Omaha. > > And World War II was won by ALL of the men and woman in uniform, and even > all those that weren't. Every single American during the war years > sacrificed in some fashion, be it in the factory as a Rosie the Riviter or > children in the scrap drives - kids who saved pennies to buy War Bonds. To > say the AAC won the war is just plain wrong, they made a SIGNIFICANT > CONTRIBUTION, but it was the combined efforts of everyone, even our Allies, > that finished the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan. > > How does everyone else feel about these two issues. I think I'm going to > get beat up pretty badly for my stance on these. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 4:04 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose > > Evidently you did not hear the remarks by Ambrose at the opening of the > D-Day museum in New Orleans on June 6, 2000 when he blamed the high loss > of life by the ground troops to the unsufficient air support by the U. > S. Air Forces. There were no German Aircraft over the Normandy Beaches > on D-Day. Nor did he mention the thousands of lives lost by the Air > forces from 1942 unil D-Day to make sure we had air superiority over > the beaches. I flew my first mission with the 303rd 180 days before > D-Day. World War II was won because of the sacrifices made by all the > men and women of all the Allied Forces. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From M9959@aol.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:52:20 EST Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:52:20 EST From: M9959@aol.com M9959@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Screen Name Change --part1_4d.320baf8.27397124_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I installed aol 6.0 and it wiped out my screen name of MSargeM@aol.com The one I must use now is M9959. Of course my given name is Morton M. MooSmsgt (RET) I am an original member of the 303rd that formed in Boise in Feb 1942. Also I went overseas with the Group on the Queen Mary in Sept 42. I was assistant crew chief of the Knockout Dropper, also crew chief of Pistol Packing Mama, Later Marie and Scorchy. Retired fro SAC 1963 on B-52 and KC135. E-Mail M9959@aol.com --part1_4d.320baf8.27397124_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I installed aol 6.0 and it wiped out my screen name of MSargeM@aol.com
The one I must use now is M9959. Of course my given name is Morton M.
MooSmsgt (RET) I am an original member of the 303rd that formed in Boise in
Feb 1942. Also I went overseas with the Group on the Queen Mary in Sept 42. I
was assistant crew chief of the Knockout Dropper, also crew chief of Pistol
Packing Mama, Later Marie and Scorchy. Retired fro SAC 1963 on B-52 and
KC135.
E-Mail M9959@aol.com --part1_4d.320baf8.27397124_boundary-- From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:06:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:06:14 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose To Kevin Pearson Nowhere in my remarks did I say that the Army Air Forces won the war. Also if you took time to read my remarks you will see that my last sentence gave credit for winning the war to all the men and women of all the Allied Forces. I recommend you read page 40 of the November issue of Air Force Magazine to see what the following say about Air Power and the invasion: Eisenhower, Adolf Galland, German Gen. Zimmerman, Rommel, etc. I would also like to point out that the number of airmen that gave their lives between November of '42 and the invasion to make sure we had air superiority was in the thousands. Or in the words of Eisenhower, "If I didn't have air supremacy, I wouldn't be here." The blood that was shed on the beaches of Normandy and the blood that was shed in the skies over German occupied territory was pretty much the same. It was Allied blood. This is my last comment on this subject. It was an experience that I'll never forget nor will i ever forget the men that I shared it with. Hal Susskind From WCarter516@aol.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:12:57 EST Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:12:57 EST From: WCarter516@aol.com WCarter516@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose AMEN!!---PUT it to rest Kevin! Bill Carter 358th From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:17:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:17:43 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Hal: I reread your message again last night and noticed my error in reading the last line of your message. That was my mistake and I apologize. I am usually more thorough. Air superiority was a major component of Overlord and why you guys shed so much blood. Thank God for all those who carried the war to Germany and Japan so that today we can exercise our right to vote and live a life free from tyranny and oppression. Again, Hal, please accept my apology for my oversight. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:11 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose To Kevin Pearson Nowhere in my remarks did I say that the Army Air Forces won the war. Also if you took time to read my remarks you will see that my last sentence gave credit for winning the war to all the men and women of all the Allied Forces. I recommend you read page 40 of the November issue of Air Force Magazine to see what the following say about Air Power and the invasion: Eisenhower, Adolf Galland, German Gen. Zimmerman, Rommel, etc. I would also like to point out that the number of airmen that gave their lives between November of '42 and the invasion to make sure we had air superiority was in the thousands. Or in the words of Eisenhower, "If I didn't have air supremacy, I wouldn't be here." The blood that was shed on the beaches of Normandy and the blood that was shed in the skies over German occupied territory was pretty much the same. It was Allied blood. This is my last comment on this subject. It was an experience that I'll never forget nor will i ever forget the men that I shared it with. Hal Susskind _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 07 Nov 2000 12:18:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 12:18:42 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Stephan Ambrose Mr. Susskind, It is perhaps easy to second quess the outcome of events many years after the fact. None-the-less, the facts remain; the Nazis were defeated. The cost was horrifying and tragic. Please never doubt that a great many men and women alive today will never forget, and will always appreciate the sacrifices that ALL of you made. I will not comment further on this issue. L. Grant. Harold Susskind wrote: > To Kevin Pearson Nowhere in my > remarks did I say that the Army Air Forces won the war. Also if you > took time to read my remarks you will see that my last sentence gave > credit for winning the war to all the men and women of all the Allied > Forces. I recommend you read page 40 of the November issue of Air Force > Magazine to see what the following say about Air Power and the invasion: > Eisenhower, Adolf Galland, German Gen. Zimmerman, Rommel, etc. > I would also like to point out that the number of airmen that gave their > lives between November of '42 and the invasion to make sure we had air > superiority was in the thousands. Or in the words of Eisenhower, "If I > didn't have air supremacy, I wouldn't be here." The blood > that was shed on the beaches of Normandy and the blood that was shed in > the skies over German occupied territory was pretty much the same. It > was Allied blood. This is my last comment on this subject. It was an > experience that I'll never forget nor will i ever forget the men that I > shared it with. Hal Susskind > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From WDK19@aol.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:58:08 EST Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:58:08 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member --part1_f.b7f87b2.2739ff20_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: I am a new member to this list. I wish you all well. I have just voted in Brooklyn, NY, and would like to thank all of you VETERANS. If it was not for your sacrifices I would not have be able to do that. (and so much more). Thanks again PS I hope I voted for the right guy. Bill Keane WDK19@aol.com --part1_f.b7f87b2.2739ff20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
   I am a new member to this list.  I wish you all well.  I have just voted
in Brooklyn, NY, and would like to thank all of you VETERANS. If it was not
for your sacrifices I would not have be able to do that. (and so much more).  
Thanks again
PS I hope I voted for the right guy.
Bill Keane
WDK19@aol.com --part1_f.b7f87b2.2739ff20_boundary-- From thollritt@yahoo.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:09:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:09:58 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Trailing antenna B-17 I asked Dad about this trailing antenna once and he related a funny story about training in Florida out of Macdill Army Air field in 1943 (Tampa Int. Airport today). They were out on a routine navigation flight and decided to do the usual Buzz down the Miami shoreline, It was always interesting to spot some of the female sun worshipers on the roof tops! Well on this day it seems the RO had extended the whip out all the way so (You see where this is going...) they could tune in some distant stations for some hi-altitude cruising music. The Pilot never gave it a thought when he dropped the B-17F down on the rooftops for a closer look. Needless to say the RO was the first to realize why they lost contact with the radio station they were listening too! ---~~~~~~~~ SNAP! - So now they land back over at MacDill (Tampa) and a scramble was on to replace the MIA antenna that was now wrapped around some Hotel in Miami Beach. They managed a quick repair but not before a few close calls as field personel began to check the flight line that night. On another memorable "Navigation" mission they blew an engine at low altitude and caused quite a stir on the West coast of Florida as they smoked all along the coast. They also lost a rookie crew they were training with in a ditching accident. They were happy to advance to the ETO after all this. He heard that the downed B-17 crew members were never recovered, local fishermen recovered proof they were eaten by sharks! Todd- > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] trailing antenna B-17 > > To the B-17 radio operators, what was the maximum > length of the trailing > antenna and how much did the brass fish weigh on the > end? > > bill runnels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From thollritt@yahoo.com Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:30:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:30:43 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hollritt thollritt@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:59:54 EST > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > My son gave me "Round Sounds I" for my last birthday > along with the book > "Slipping the Surly Bonds (McGraw-Hill) by Dave > English, which contains > great quotations on Flight, which I treasure > (especially the inscription!) > Would appreciate having the name of the tape you > referred to.....can't hint > too early to Santa. Have a good one....Cheers, Bob > Hand. Hey All, Tell Santa to get you Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator I and II. Talk about engine sounds!!! You get to fly real P-51's, FW-190's and escort B-17's (And (Gulp!) shoot them down) plus a ton of other WWII aircraft. CFS I is ETO and CFS II is the PTO (NEW 10/2000) where you can fly USN and JIN aircraft. I put dad in the seat of a Corsair and let him take out some ground targets. It's VERY scary as the flak pops around you, your A/C bounces along through the puffs of smoke and damage actually shows up outside your cockpit. All this with radial engine sounds and 50 cals hammering away tracers and all! You will need a fast PC to handle the graphics though. Todd- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From todd.hollritt@attws.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:42:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:42:44 -0500 From: Hollritt, Todd todd.hollritt@attws.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C04946.B7FC5680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here's the link so you can check out CFS I and CFS II http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs/ <> ------_=_NextPart_000_01C04946.B7FC5680 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator.url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs/ Modified=A04EFEC64549C00101 ------_=_NextPart_000_01C04946.B7FC5680-- From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:46:25 EST Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:46:25 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Fantasy of Flight, the air museum in Polk City, FL., has a half dozen flight simulators designed like Corsairs. They also have a diarama involving a B-17 in jungle surroundings getting an engine change. Fascinating place, pristine aircraft including a flyable Short Sunderland, of all animals. Cheers, Bob Hand From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:43:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:43:00 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Glad you voted. It certainly was a cliff hanger just like theWorld Series games. I lived in the Bay Ridge section of Brooklyn before I got recalled to active duty. Do you miss the Dodgers? Lots of luck. Hal Susskind From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:47:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:47:38 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Bob, when were you last at Fantasy of Flight? I agree with you. Kermit Weeks and company have done a terrific job and it is a definate must see for anyone vacationing in the area. Aviation enthusiasts will get more than their moneys worth. ( I live about 20 mins. away ). Lloyd. Bhandsr@aol.com wrote: > Fantasy of Flight, the air museum in Polk City, FL., has a half dozen > flight simulators designed like Corsairs. They also have a diarama > involving a B-17 in jungle surroundings getting an engine change. > Fascinating place, pristine aircraft including a flyable Short Sunderland, > of all animals. Cheers, Bob Hand > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From wejones@megalink.net Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:48:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:48:57 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Trailing antenna B-17....Greenland > I asked Dad about this trailing antenna once and he > related a funny story about training in Florida out of > Macdill Army Air field in 1943 ..... > ...... > ..... > Well on this day it seems the RO had extended the > whip out all the way so (You see where this is > going...) ... > ... > ---~~~~~~~~ SNAP! - There is an interesting anecdote about trailing antennas in the book "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann . I haven't read the whole book, but read the chapters that dealt with the north atlantic crossing via Greenland and Iceland (in a cargo plane not a B-17). I was interested in this because my father flew back via this route. Apparently the BW-1 field in Greenland and the field in Iceland typically got extremely foggy and low clouds, and BW-1 had to be approached via a narrow fiord with icebergs, so they had to drop down under the clouds, to visually find the right fiord, but the clouds were low enough, and they didn't have up to date altimeter settings, so they couldn't be sure that they weren't dropping down right into the water or an iceberg. So apparently what they did was to lower the trailing antenna, and the RO was told to tell the pilot if the wire was severed, as an indication of their altitude. It sounded like a nasty place to land. (I can't remember if this trailing antenna story was in the chapter about approaching Greenland or Iceland, but they were similar stories). My father never talked about the war itself, but often talked about the challenge of landing in Greenland. BTW, I recently uploaded one of the Flight weather maps for the 3rd leg of the return trip, from BW-1 to Bradley. As I had mentioned once before, the print on these maps is dis-appearing over the years, so the quality isn't that good, but the map is very interesting. It is at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/bw1-br.html . This image is of one side, which is a contour map showing elevations, and there is a link to an image of the other side, which is a regular map with weather information. It's a big file, but interesting. The contour information around BW-1 on the map confirms that BW-1 was between 2 high mountains. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:48:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:48:29 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions To Matt Petersen Your dad must have flown a mission with the British Pathfinders. I was attached to a PFF pool on my first tour. We were authorized to wear a blue background to our wings but that was later cancelled. We did several articles on Poltava in the Hell's Angels newsletter. As Kevin Pearson said, we lost a lot of B-17s when the Luftwaffe bombed the base . Hal S. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:57:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:57:40 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions Hi Hal: Did the 303rd participate in the second shuttle mission? Not sure of the target(s), but it seems I've read the second shuttle flew onto North Africa, was it Bengazi? I've heard other bomb groups say they were practically out of fuel when touching down. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 1:54 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: 303rd Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] A few questions To Matt Petersen Your dad must have flown a mission with the British Pathfinders. I was attached to a PFF pool on my first tour. We were authorized to wear a blue background to our wings but that was later cancelled. We did several articles on Poltava in the Hell's Angels newsletter. As Kevin Pearson said, we lost a lot of B-17s when the Luftwaffe bombed the base . Hal S. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From glm@303rdBGA.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:02:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:02:36 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lost Comrade Search Hi All, Our 303rd-Talk Membership just made the century mark as we now have 101 members. Thanks for making this endeavor successful ! As you know, we are involved in a "Lost Comrade Search" to try to locate 1000 missing 303rders by next September. We are in need of more volunteers to help. Some of you have already volunteered and should have your list of names to be searching out. I have put a page online, similar to the package the volunteers received. It is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/missing-help.html If you have volunteered, we thank you. If not, how about giving it a try? Some of you have asked what you can do to help the 303rd. This is it. If you are willing to help, contact us at: missing@303rdbga.com rather than to this list. Thanks! - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:49:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:49:57 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hello overthere, this is just a short note to introduce myself to you all. I´ve been a member of this board since september, but missed introducing so far. Excuse for that. Nevertheless I watched all these messages with upcoming interest. Well, anyway, my name is Uwe Anton Wiedemann and I am from Southern Bavaria in Germany. I grew up in the city of Augsburg ( close to Munich) and almost near the former Messerschmitt plant in Augsburg-Haunstetten. When working for my diploma as a landscape architect some years ago the subject of my diploma also touched the history of the former Messerschmitt plant nearby and I got interested more and more in the history of Air War over Augsburg / Messerschmitt and the Air Force units involved. I found out about some publications about raids on Messerschmitt from the German look, but also that little is known here in Augsburg of the USAAf crewmembers who have been on these raids. I´ve got in contact with some former pilots and crewmembers of the 8th USAAF and the 15th USAAF, who flew over Augsburg and listened to their interesting stories. Thank you , Gentlemen, again for your kind and open-minded responses on my enquiries! Special thanks to Mr. Bill Eisenhart! My mother , born in 1930, still can recall those raids and all the specific noise caused by hundreds of bombers. My aunt, too, now living in the US for almost 51 years, married to a former bomber crew member (PTO). My Dad, a former German Air Force radio operator, born in 1920. Served with Me 110 during BoB and later on with Ju 87 Stuka in the North African theatre. Assigned to Luftwaffe Signal ground troops in Sicily in ´43 he later - and finally- was sacked in by US Infantry in the Dolomites / Northern Italy in May ´45. He´s still fine in his 81st and was very interested in all the correspondences I had with your veterans. Well, I just want you all let you know that I certainly will try to be of some help as possible to me in regards of any enquiries on former fighter pilots "of the other field post number" as they used to say here. If you have any enqiry, please let me know and I will put it forward to the Assoc. of former fighter pilots and Luftwaffe members. Oberst a.D. Goebel ( Col. ret.) will certainly publish it in the "Jägerblatt" ( Hunter´s news mag) to find out more. Well, so far for now. Gary, thanks for putting me on the list! Very interesting to read all the news. Best wishes from over here in Germany, Uwe From WDK19@aol.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:33:39 EST Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:33:39 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member --part1_92.c3c1901.273b3cd3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: I do miss the Dogers and I am in Bay Ridge, 72 Street and 3 ave. I guess I will never get out of here alive. Bill --part1_92.c3c1901.273b3cd3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal:
  I do miss the Dogers and I am in Bay Ridge, 72 Street and 3 ave. I guess I
will never get out of here alive.
                                                                Bill --part1_92.c3c1901.273b3cd3_boundary-- From CDouglasN@aol.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:13:47 EST Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:13:47 EST From: CDouglasN@aol.com CDouglasN@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Welcome aboard, Len! Good to see a familiar face around here! :-) Chuck "Chuckd" Norton (Bombs-Away) From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:25:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:25:13 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Bill My wife comes from 12th Ave. and 80th Street. She went to Bay Ridge High. She misses the Dodgers too. We left Brooklyn in 1949 when I got recalled to active duty. We stayed in 30 years and never returned to Brooklyn. We came to Austin, Texas in 1973 where George W. Bush lives. Miss the Brooklyn Pizzas. Regards Hal From WDK19@aol.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:01:08 EST Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:01:08 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member --part1_69.caface9.273b5f64_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal: You and your wife will have to come back one day. The pizza are still pretty good. We now are Mets fans, they keep losing to the Yankee' too. Bill --part1_69.caface9.273b5f64_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hal:
  You and your wife will have to come back one day.  The pizza are still
pretty good.
We now are Mets fans, they keep losing to the Yankee' too.
                                                                             
  Bill --part1_69.caface9.273b5f64_boundary-- From viking11@home.com Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:52:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:52:32 -0800 From: Len Hjalmarson viking11@home.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > Welcome aboard, Len! Good to see a familiar face around here! :-) > > Chuck "Chuckd" Norton (Bombs-Away) thanks Chuck! Len From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:23:30 EST Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:23:30 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Propeller Position Visited K.Weeks Fantasy some time last year courtesy Quiet Birdmen invite. How about that immaculate white floor! Must revisit some day soon. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:36:46 EST Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:36:46 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Bob Hand, native Brooklynite, Howard Ave., between Putnam and Jefferson, opposite Bushwick Hospital....left in 1933. Quit the area entirely and trekked up Conn. way to a wartime job in New Britain, then Air Corps. Never regretted leaving Brooklyn! Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:41:59 EST Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:41:59 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Meant to mention that I graduated from Alex Hamilton High in 1940.....what a school...no athletics but a great orchestra group. Cheers, Bob Hand, exBklyn-ite. From viking11@home.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:11:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:11:59 -0800 From: Len Hjalmarson viking11@home.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself hi Ume! Are you by chance related to Teut Weidemann? regards Len Hjalmarson From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:28:38 +0100 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:28:38 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hi Len, no , sorry, not that I know of. I understand that Teut is living in the US? I once stood in front of the Vietnam Memorial / Washington, D.C. reading some of those names and found a "Robert J. Wiedemann". Quite a surprise for me! I know that some of my ancestors left home for the States as immigrants by the end of last century. Kind regards, Uwe Len Hjalmarson schrieb: > hi Ume! > > Are you by chance related to Teut Weidemann? > > regards > > Len Hjalmarson > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From glm@303rdBGA.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:23:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:23:46 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: WDK19@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:16:16 EST Subject: Another Brooklyn Kid. To: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com HI to All: =A0 I have a story of a Brooklyn Boy who served in the 8th AAF. He was my uncle, his name was S/Sgt Joseph P. Keane. He was a left waist gunner and = was in the 482BG, 812BS out of Alconbury.=A0 On Jan 11, 1944 he was on a missi= on to bomb Halberstat from Thurleigh, England.=A0 Four minutes after they bombed Halberstat at 21,000 feet, their plane was damaged by enemy fighters, at 1= 258 hours his aircraft and had to dropout of formation with its tail shot up. They were last seen over Hannover, Germany. The crew heads for their home base, they will try to re= ach England.=A0 However over the Netherlands the plane is attacked again by tw= enty to thirty fighters. The doomed Bomber was only ten minutes away from the coast.=A0 They could not keep control of the plane after they were attacke= d again, the damage was from rockets fired from enemy fighters, over the Province of Gelderland, Netherlands three crew members bailed out.=A0 They= became POWs for the remainder of the war.=A0 All three will survive the wa= r.=A0 They were T/Sgt. Glenn, S/Sgt. Mills and S/Sgt. Rajala. Some of the remaining crewmen bailed out at the moment the plane crossed t= he shore of the Ijsselmeer.=A0 They fell into the ice cold water of the Ijsse= lmeed and could not survive the extreme temperatures.=A0 Some local Fishermen we= nt out immediately after they saw the parachutes coming down but were too lat= e to save these men.=A0 The Copilot Lt. Peterson went down with the ship.=A0= We do not know how many of the crew bailed out or went down with the ship.=A0 It= is reported the ship pulled straight up, stalled and fell off and headed straight down and never pulled out, It crashed into the Ijsselmeer. S/Sgt. Joseph P. Keane was last seen Standing in the waist of the plane, "when I bailed out he was standing in the ready, but I never did see or he= ar of him again." (Quotes from the Individual Casualty Questionnaire. It was = not signed) S/Sgt. Joseph P. Keane's body washed ashore on May 23, 1944, from the jsselmeer Lake (Zuider Sea).=A0 This was four miles north of the town of Harderwijk, Netherlands.=A0 The Germans brought his remains to Harderwijk Civilian Cemetery.=A0 He was interred on May 24, 1944.=A0 A wooden casket = was provided by a civilian undertaker.=A0 He had a wooden cross to mark his gr= ave with the following inscription in Dutch "American Flyer Buried 24, May 194= 4. In 1946 the American Army disinterred him and transferred him to the Unite= d States Military Cemetery, in Belgium. He was buried as Unknown X-3347, He = was again disinterred on Oct 30, 1948. He was identified thought Dental Record= s.=A0 He was permanently interred in July 1949 at Ardennes American Cemetery,=A0= Neupre, France In June 1968 the Recovery and Salvage Team Of the Royal Netherlands Air Fo= rce found the wreckage of the B-17 number 42-3486 when they entered the reclai= med land from the Ijsselmeer.=A0 There they found the remains of 1st LT. Peter= son which received a grave at the Margraten Cemetery in the Netherlands. I have been told that they were flying along with the 303BG that day. In t= he book "The Flying Fortress Story" its states it was lead plane. But in the MACR 2522, it is stated they were last. I think the second may be correct. Any thoughts on this or information about the mission will be appreciated Sorry about the length of this. Bill ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:41:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:41:39 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Len, What ever the venue you choose, I am glad that people of my generation are doing something to preserve and remember what our fathers risked, and gave their lives to. Perhaps there will never be one book, nor any single remembrance that will encompass the total experience of all. Every fragment is completely vital. Len Hjalmarson wrote: > Greetings to all, > > I found the mailing list rather by accident while doing a search for > information on the B17. First I'll tell you a bit about myself, and then > describe my specific area of interest. > > I come by interest in military history legitimately, since both my father > and grandfather served in the Canadian military. My grandfather was a forest > ranger who joined the army in 1914 and was sent over to Europe. He was > wounded and sent home a year or so later. My grandfather died of a sudden > stroke attributed to the same wound in about 1942. > > My father joined the military too late for WWII, but served in the RCAF as a > diesel engineer and later an instructor of turbines and electrical > generating systems. As a result I grew up on air bases all over western > Canada and have always been around aircraft and have known many military > pilots. > > When I finished high school I decided to go on to university, and finished > an MA in 1986. I began doing some freelance work for various journals, and > then in 1988 discovered flying on the PC. I began a hobby site on the > internet related to flight simulations, and then in 1997 a friend and I took > the site commercial. While I left COMBATSIM.COM in January of this year, it > is still present on the net and still a good source for combat simulation > info. > > Since January I have continued to work as a journalist in the area of > military history and military simulations, conducting numerous interviews > with serving and retired pilots, doing historical research to help > illuminate the real stories that anchor the various military simulations in > the real world of humanity and conflict between nations. > > At the moment I am immersed in testing a number of coming simulations that > many of you might find interesting. The first is titled "Battle of Britain" > and will be released in a month or so. It's a very good simulation of the > flying war and the strategic war. The second is titled B17 Flying Fortress: > The Mighty Eighth. I've attached a single image from the actual game for > your interest. If you would like to read more on this one, have a look at > http://www.combatsim.com as well as http://flightsim.thrustmaster.com . > > I'm hoping to tempt a few of you who served in the Fortress to do an > interview with me that I would use as part of the series of interviews that > are appearing on the ThrustMaster website. > > By the way, it was interesting reading of your own special interest, Kevin. > We're the same age! > > Whether any veterans are interested in an interview or not, my best regards, > and thank you for your service - not only to your country, but for the free > world. You are all heroes! > > best regards > > Len Hjalmarson > Kelowna, BC > Canada > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: b17-morn6.jpg > b17-morn6.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:50:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:50:10 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself ... a man, who, had I known him, would gladly have stood a "round"... May we all learn something from this tragedy. Palidin. Uwe Wiedemann wrote: > Hello overthere, > > this is just a short note to introduce myself to you all. I´ve been a > member of this board since september, but missed introducing so far. > Excuse for that. Nevertheless I watched all these messages with upcoming > interest. > Well, anyway, my name is Uwe Anton Wiedemann and I am from Southern > Bavaria in Germany. I grew up in the city of Augsburg ( close to Munich) > and almost near the former Messerschmitt plant in Augsburg-Haunstetten. > When working for my diploma as a landscape architect some years ago the > subject of my diploma also touched the history of the former > Messerschmitt plant nearby and I got interested more and more in the > history of Air War over Augsburg / Messerschmitt and the Air Force units > involved. I found out about some publications about raids on > Messerschmitt from the German look, but also that little is known here > in Augsburg of the USAAf crewmembers who have been on these raids. I´ve > got in contact with some former pilots and crewmembers of the 8th USAAF > and the 15th USAAF, who flew over Augsburg and listened to their > interesting stories. Thank you , Gentlemen, again for your kind and > open-minded responses on my enquiries! Special thanks to Mr. Bill > Eisenhart! > > My mother , born in 1930, still can recall those raids and all the > specific noise caused by hundreds of bombers. My aunt, too, now living > in the US for almost 51 years, married to a former bomber crew member > (PTO). > My Dad, a former German Air Force radio operator, born in 1920. Served > with Me 110 during BoB and later on with Ju 87 Stuka in the North > African theatre. Assigned to Luftwaffe Signal ground troops in Sicily > in ´43 he later - and finally- was sacked in by US Infantry in the > Dolomites / Northern Italy in May ´45. He´s still fine in his 81st and > was very interested in all the correspondences I had with your veterans. > > Well, I just want you all let you know that I certainly will try to be > of some help as possible to me in regards of any enquiries on former > fighter pilots "of the other field post number" as they used to say > here. If you have any enqiry, please let me know and I will put it > forward to the Assoc. of former fighter pilots and Luftwaffe members. > Oberst a.D. Goebel ( Col. ret.) will certainly publish it in the > "Jägerblatt" ( Hunter´s news mag) to find out more. > Well, so far for now. Gary, thanks for putting me on the list! Very > interesting to read all the news. > > Best wishes from over here in Germany, > > Uwe > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:22:26 EST Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:22:26 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. No story is that long as not to evoke feelings of heartfelt sympathy and immense pride in the sacrifices made by these courageous men. To be amongst them in such harrowing times is an unforgettable and chilling experience. Best wishes and cheers, Bob Hand b/Fink's crew, 303/360. 35m. From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:37:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:37:58 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] New Member Bill, if you don't, you will have some damned good company on the other side;  where ever it is.  Keep living until you die.  See you, but not too soon, okay?  Best. Lloyd.

WDK19@aol.com wrote:

Hi Hal:
  I do miss the Dogers and I am in Bay Ridge, 72 Street and 3 ave. I guess I
will never get out of here alive.
                                                                Bill
_______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:45:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:45:09 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself To Uwe Wiedermann from Hal Susskind a navigator with the 303rd Bomb Group. Several years ago I was the editor of the Hell's Angels newsletter and through it I met Wolfgand Rex Reicher a former Luftwaffe pilot who flew Ju-88s and also the Me-163. In 1993 on a visit to Germany I stayed at his house in Esslingen. For three days we fought the air war all over again over several bottles of good wine. In the past year my letters to him have been returned. Your dad my remember him. Near the end of the war his plane was destroyed on a raid on Orleans a nd he then had to serve in the Army. He was sent to Italy where he was captured by the U>S> Army and taken prisoner to someplace in Italy. He was also a friend of "The Golden Knight>" I am also trying to locate Uwe Benkel a German businessman whose hobby was digging up aircraft crash sites. One in Eisenberg where the people in the town erected a monument to an Americn crew which crash landed outside of the town to save the town. I attended the ceremony in Eisenberg in 1993. Benkel is an Honorary member of the 303rd BGA. I believed he lived near Ramstein AFB Best wishes from Austin, Texas I enjoyed reading your message. Hal Susskind. From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:06:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:06:45 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hal: Thanks for your kind response. I´ll try to find out about what happened to Wolfgang Rex Reicher, even trough Willi Goebel of the fighter pilot´s Assn. and hope to show up with some news for you. Pretty sure, Willi Goebel will know more. If all fails, well, Esslingen - his hometown- is not too far away from my home... nice trip. Will contact some "aviation archeologists" that I know of to find out something about Uwe Benkel. Let you know about that also. Best wishes from Bavaria, Germany. Uwe Wiedemann Harold Susskind schrieb: > To Uwe Wiedermann from Hal Susskind a navigator with the 303rd Bomb > Group. Several years ago I was the editor of the Hell's Angels > newsletter and through it I met Wolfgand Rex Reicher a former Luftwaffe > pilot who flew Ju-88s and also the Me-163. In 1993 on a visit to Germany > I stayed at his house in Esslingen. For three days we fought the air war > all over again over several bottles of good wine. In the past year my > letters to him have been returned. Your dad my remember him. Near the > end of the war his plane was destroyed on a raid on Orleans a nd he then > had to serve in the Army. He was sent to Italy where he was captured by > the U>S> Army and taken prisoner to someplace in Italy. He was also a > friend of "The Golden Knight>" I am also > trying to locate Uwe Benkel a German businessman whose hobby was digging > up aircraft crash sites. One in Eisenberg where the people in the town > erected a monument to an Americn crew which crash landed outside of the > town to save the town. I attended the ceremony in Eisenberg in 1993. > Benkel is an Honorary member of the 303rd BGA. I believed he lived near > Ramstein AFB Best wishes from Austin, Texas I enjoyed reading your > message. Hal Susskind. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:58:10 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:58:10 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hi Uwe: A friend of mine and I are having a serious debate about the FW 190. He says that one version had a V-12 engine, not the typical radial found on most variants. I say my friend is crazy. There may have been some produced as prototypes, but I don't think there were any production models made with a V12. Anyone else out there ever hear of this? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Uwe Wiedemann Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:14 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hal: Thanks for your kind response. I´ll try to find out about what happened to Wolfgang Rex Reicher, even trough Willi Goebel of the fighter pilot´s Assn. and hope to show up with some news for you. Pretty sure, Willi Goebel will know more. If all fails, well, Esslingen - his hometown- is not too far away from my home... nice trip. Will contact some "aviation archeologists" that I know of to find out something about Uwe Benkel. Let you know about that also. Best wishes from Bavaria, Germany. Uwe Wiedemann Harold Susskind schrieb: > To Uwe Wiedermann from Hal Susskind a navigator with the 303rd Bomb > Group. Several years ago I was the editor of the Hell's Angels > newsletter and through it I met Wolfgand Rex Reicher a former Luftwaffe > pilot who flew Ju-88s and also the Me-163. In 1993 on a visit to Germany > I stayed at his house in Esslingen. For three days we fought the air war > all over again over several bottles of good wine. In the past year my > letters to him have been returned. Your dad my remember him. Near the > end of the war his plane was destroyed on a raid on Orleans a nd he then > had to serve in the Army. He was sent to Italy where he was captured by > the U>S> Army and taken prisoner to someplace in Italy. He was also a > friend of "The Golden Knight>" I am also > trying to locate Uwe Benkel a German businessman whose hobby was digging > up aircraft crash sites. One in Eisenberg where the people in the town > erected a monument to an Americn crew which crash landed outside of the > town to save the town. I attended the ceremony in Eisenberg in 1993. > Benkel is an Honorary member of the 303rd BGA. I believed he lived near > Ramstein AFB Best wishes from Austin, Texas I enjoyed reading your > message. Hal Susskind. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:49:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:49:13 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself UWE I mispelled Rex's name. It's Reichert. He was also a glider pilot before the war. You live in a beautiful part of Germany. We have been to Munich many times. Thanks...Hal Susskind From viking11@home.com Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:19:40 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:19:40 -0800 From: Len Hjalmarson viking11@home.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: Fw 190 V-12? hi Kevin Surely Galland would have mentioned a V-12 prototype in the FW 190? He doesn't do so in his book "The First and the Last." Len From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:58:24 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:58:24 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hal, I corrected Rex´name to Reichert and will start the enquiry this evening. Thank you for the compliment about our landscape here. Well, I remember seeing some really beautiful woods in N.H. during Indian summer and moistered grasslands of the Everglades. Really impressing. Today we´ve had southern winds and could see the Alps really close. Nice pic! Good flying conditions. Best wishes... Uwe Wiedemann Harold Susskind schrieb: > UWE I mispelled > Rex's name. It's Reichert. He was also a glider pilot before the war. > You live in a beautiful part of Germany. We have been to Munich many > times. Thanks...Hal Susskind > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:38:02 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:38:02 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hi Kevin, haven´t heard of this V12 engine either. I just know of the 14 Cyl. Double Stern engine used with FW-190. As you probably may know , too, there is the FW 189, which had a V 12 engine. Kind regards, Uwe Kevin Pearson schrieb: > Hi Uwe: A friend of mine and I are having a serious debate about the FW > 190. He says that one version had a V-12 engine, not the typical radial > found on most variants. I say my friend is crazy. There may have been some > produced as prototypes, but I don't think there were any production models > made with a V12. Anyone else out there ever hear of this? > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Uwe Wiedemann > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:14 AM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself > > Hal: > Thanks for your kind response. > I´ll try to find out about what happened to Wolfgang Rex Reicher, even > trough Willi Goebel of the fighter pilot´s Assn. and hope to show up with > some news for you. > Pretty sure, Willi Goebel will know more. If all fails, well, Esslingen - > his hometown- is not too far away from my home... nice trip. > Will contact some "aviation archeologists" that I know of to find out > something about Uwe Benkel. Let you know about that also. > Best wishes from Bavaria, Germany. > Uwe Wiedemann > > Harold Susskind schrieb: > > > To Uwe Wiedermann from Hal Susskind a navigator with the 303rd Bomb > > Group. Several years ago I was the editor of the Hell's Angels > > newsletter and through it I met Wolfgand Rex Reicher a former Luftwaffe > > pilot who flew Ju-88s and also the Me-163. In 1993 on a visit to Germany > > I stayed at his house in Esslingen. For three days we fought the air war > > all over again over several bottles of good wine. In the past year my > > letters to him have been returned. Your dad my remember him. Near the > > end of the war his plane was destroyed on a raid on Orleans a nd he then > > had to serve in the Army. He was sent to Italy where he was captured by > > the U>S> Army and taken prisoner to someplace in Italy. He was also a > > friend of "The Golden Knight>" I am also > > trying to locate Uwe Benkel a German businessman whose hobby was digging > > up aircraft crash sites. One in Eisenberg where the people in the town > > erected a monument to an Americn crew which crash landed outside of the > > town to save the town. I attended the ceremony in Eisenberg in 1993. > > Benkel is an Honorary member of the 303rd BGA. I believed he lived near > > Ramstein AFB Best wishes from Austin, Texas I enjoyed reading your > > message. Hal Susskind. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From Danger77@aol.com Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:07:01 EST Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:07:01 EST From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself In a message dated 11/10/00 10:55:03 AM, kpearson@saintjoseph.com writes: << I say my friend is crazy. >> It was the FW 190D, AKA Dora; probably the best performing 190 variant, leading to the TA 152. Larry Farrell From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:23:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:23:32 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introducing myself Hal, guess I´ll be able to show up with some news about Uwe Benkel pretty soon. Talked to a friend of him today. I´ll be back on this line. Best.... Uwe Harold Susskind schrieb: > UWE I mispelled > Rex's name. It's Reichert. He was also a glider pilot before the war. > You live in a beautiful part of Germany. We have been to Munich many > times. Thanks...Hal Susskind > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:14:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:14:40 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] more molesworth pictures found I've found a few new pictures taken at Molesworth back during the war, that my father had saved. A couple were before his time there, other's were of people he knew and flew with. 2 pictures of interest which apparently he picked up, were a picture of the flak jacked worn by 2LT THOMAS J. DELLO BUONO on Apr 13 1944, and a picture of the plane he flew that day, "Idaliza". (I've E-mailed the daughter of Lt Dello Buono to see if she wants the pictures). (See the 303rdbga web page for the story of the above) (This was before my father reported to Molesworth, but he apparently picked up the pictures at the end of the war.) Anyway, if anyone else is interested, the 2 Apr 13 1944 pictures are at http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/dlbuono1.jpg http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/dlbuono2.jpg The pictures, are also at: http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/misc303.html along with a few other pictures of people taken at Molesworth. I will be adding a few additional pictures to this page as I scan them. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:48:25 -0600 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:48:25 -0600 From: Maurice Paulk mjpmtman@kdsi.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] IDALIZA & Bill Jones This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C04CAF.3A91DF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got the picture of the flak jacket but drew a blank & 'hit refresh = button " - no image !. Was curious about the ship "Idaliza". Have a photo I took in '44 of her = setting in front of hangar "K". The 303rd web site listed her as being = crewed by pilot Merrill M. Stiver. In snail mail correspondence with Mr. = Stiver he denies ever flying in her. I had the 620 negative blown up to = 8 X 10 and sent it to Brian McGuire. {don't know if it was on display at = the 365th mission or not.] It plainly shows the serial number - 297546. Flew on the Continental Express [Didn't have sense enough to remember = the ship's name] and even though I was asleep when we flew up the Rhine = River Gorge [ & my buddy sicker than a horse in the compartment under = the flight deck] I did manage to get some good pictures of the Koln = Cathedral , a flak tower in Essen and the Arc de Triumph. [ Inspite of = the fact theat a 2nd Louie booted this Sgt. out of the bombardier's seat = on take off..[There was supposed to be no rank pulling ---HA !] THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C04CAF.3A91DF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Got the picture of the flak jacket but = drew a=20 blank  & 'hit refresh button " - no image !.
 
Was curious about the ship "Idaliza". = Have a photo=20 I took in '44 of her setting in front of hangar "K". The 303rd web=20 site listed her as being crewed by pilot Merrill M. Stiver. In = snail mail=20 correspondence with Mr. Stiver he denies ever flying in her. I had the = 620=20 negative blown up to 
8 X 10 and sent it to Brian McGuire. = {don't know if=20 it was on display at the 365th mission or not.] It plainly shows the = serial=20 number - 297546.
 
Flew on the Continental Express [Didn't = have sense=20 enough to remember the ship's name] and even though I was asleep when we = flew up=20 the Rhine River Gorge [ & my buddy sicker than a horse in the=20 compartment under the flight deck] I did manage to get some good = pictures of the=20 Koln Cathedral , a flak tower in Essen and the Arc de Triumph. [ Inspite = of the=20 fact theat a 2nd Louie booted this Sgt. out of the bombardier's = seat on=20 take off..[There was supposed to be no rank pulling ---HA = !]
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C04CAF.3A91DF00-- From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:49:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:49:09 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions Hi Kevin: Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have a bad hip that keeps acting up. I don't believe the 303rd took part in any shuttle missions. But I defer to our Historian Harry Gobrecht. I believe the first one was flown by outfits from Italy and the second one was flown by units from the 3rd Air Divison. Those were the fellows that got caught on the ground and and lost all their B-17s. From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:36:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:36:56 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. Although I only became a Brooklynite in July of 1948 when i got married and left there in August of 1949 when I got recalled to active duty I did enjoy living in Brooklyn. I originally came from Manhattan. I flew on the January 11 mission to Oschersleben and it ranks as one of the two roughest missions of the 41 that I flew and that includes the 8 that I flew to Berlin. It was a very cold day and anyone that had to bail out over the Zuider Zee had very little chance to survive. My version of that mission appeared in a copy of the Hell's Angels newsletter. Hal Susskind From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:06:04 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:06:04 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions Hi Hal: Sorry to hear about your hip, I know that can be very painful. I do know several who were with the 100th BG(H) that went to Poltavia. What follows is from my first book. "Meanwhile, the planners had decided to combine the Regensburg and Schweinfurt missions. Ten minutes after Le May's force left for Regensburg and Africa, the 1st Bombardment Wing would take off for Schweinfurt. It was hoped the 4th Wing would attract most of the enemy's fighters. The Eighth's heavies would be aided by a mass of diversionary operations. No one imagined this would be an easy mission. The unprecedentedly deep penetration alarmed the crews at the briefings. Many gunners took along extra ammunition. This was a rare "maximum effort." Normally, bomber groups put up only three of their four squadrons at a time, letting one squadron rest (and insuring a group could not be wiped out in one day.) For this mission, all four squadrons went up; the "extra" ones formed special "composite groups." The plan promptly went awry. Low clouds hung over the American bases, especially the 1st Wing's on the morning of August 17. They promised to be short lived, but would make mass takeoffs and climbs to altitude dangerous. The clouds posed a dilemma for the American commanders, who were under pressure to get on with the long-delayed mission. The Regensburg force had to leave early, so it could land in Africa while there was still daylight. Le May was ready to go. The clouds over his bases were not so bad, and he was rightly confident his pilots were trained well enough to cope with them. Gen. Frederick Anderson, the head of VIIIth Bomber Command, let Le May's wing take off after an hour and a half, while holding Gen. Robert Williams's lst Wing, which finally left three and a half hours after the 4th Wing. The Americans had the worst of it in two ways. The German fighters intercepted the 4th Wing would have time to land, refuel, and get ready to meet Williams's planes. But, the Allied fighters escorting the 4th Wing would not have enough time to return to base and reinforce the planes escorting the 1st Wing on the initial stages of its journey.6 Le May took off with seven groups and 146 planes; several aborted before reaching the Netherlands. The Germans were eager, and struck even before the Thunderbolts of the 56th and 353rd Fighter Groups left the bombers at Eupen, Belgium. Some 300 German fighters were ready for action, deployed in depth, and there were constant attacks. Night fighters stalked behind to catch cripples. The Germans fired rockets and tried air-to-air bombing, but most of the damage was done with conventional attacks by single-engine fighters. By the time the force reached Regensburg, the Germans had largely exhausted their fuel and ammunition. Only a few test pilots from a local factory defense unit harassed the bombers as they settle into their bomb run. Because of the target's importance, the B-17s bombed from relatively low, 17,000 to 20,000 feet; fortunately, Regensburg was not particularly heavily defended by flak. In spite of the heavy losses, the bombing was very accurate, destroying many workshops, storerooms, a hangar and finished planes on the factory airfield. But, the most important single building, the final assembly shop, was not hit. Le May's force reached Africa without much further trouble. 24 planes were shot down. He found the African bases in poor shape, which discouraged future "shuttle missions" there." "This was the last big mission in June which was concentrated on oil alone. On June 21, while the main force struck aircraft plants, rail centers, and other targets in Berlin, 145 B-17s of the 3rd Bombardment Division hit the largest of the Fischer-Tropsch plants at Ruhland. This force then flew to the Ukraine, carrying out the Eighth's first shuttle mission to Soviet bases. The Germans expected the force hitting Regensburg to return to England, and were preparing for another great battle. They had one, but not quite as they expected. Just as they realized Le May was going south, they detected a second force coming from England. The 1st Wing, nine groups of bombers, comprising 230 planes, had finally taken off for Schweinfurt as the 4th Wind neared Regensburg. Its target was not quite so far, but it would have to fight all the way there and back. The bombing plan had one unusual feature for an American attack. If smoke hid the three factory targets, the last four groups, carrying incendiaries, were to bomb the center of Schweinfurt. That way they would hit housing and kill some skilled workers. The 1st Wing remained unlucky. After crossing the Dutch coast, it encountered a thick cloud layer. The commander of the 1st Air Task Force (the leading half of the wing) chose to go under it at 17,000 feet. This contributed to the failure of the 4th Fighter Group, one of the two groups which were to escort the force on the Antwerp-Europen leg of the route, to rendezvous on time - it only joined the bombers just before it had to leave. The 78th Fighter Group, which managed to rendezvous, was overstretched. This cost at least one bomber; the Germans once again struck even before the Thunderbolts turned back. The decision to fly at 17,000 feet may have been unfortunate for other reasons. Flak was deadlier, and the German fighters, flying at their best altitude, were able to use the clouds as cover. They slammed repeatedly into the Americans, concentrating on the leading groups. Survivors of the Schweinfurt mission were unanimous in regarding it as their worst experience of the war, except possibly for those who also went on the second mission two months later. The Germans once again had to let up as the bombers neared the target, but they had disrupted the Schweinfurt force more than they had the 4th Wing. The approach to the target had been altered at the last minute to allow for the changed position of the sun later in the day, and the attack was made from a less familiar angle. The bombing was inaccurate; the last four groups were unable to see the factories, but were so disorganized they did not hit even the center of the city. After more fierce fighting, the 1st Wing was met by the 56th Fighter Group east of Eupen. The fighter group had squeezed 15 extra miles of range out of the clumsy 200 gallon tanks, and it jumped the pursuing Germans. Three Thunderbolts went down with their pilots, but a dozen German fighters were shot down, probably saving several bombers. Along with the rescue of six crews from the sea, this was almost the sole merciful occurrence of the day. The Schweinfurt force had lost 36 Fortresses. In all, of 376 B-17s in the striking force, 60 had gone down and 11 had to be scrapped. Seven Allied fighters were lost. The Americans alone had lost 601 men: 102 killed, 381 prisoners, and 20 interned in Switzerland, while 38 fell in enemy territory but managed to evade capture. The Germans had lost about 47 planes, with only 16 men killed. Only about 21 planes had fallen to the bomber gunners, who claimed to have shot down 288 German planes! The Regensburg attack did a lot of damage to Me-109 production, and it paid an unexpected dividend: it destroyed the fuselage jigs and acceptance gauges for the Me-262 jet fighter. But, the attack was not the crushing blow it had hoped for. The Germans recovered many machine-tools even though the buildings they were in were destroyed. More tools were rushed from the Skoda works, and the factory was dispersed, first to "shadow" workshops in nearby towns and then to forest clearings. Production recovered and even increased. The Schweinfurt attack was a comparative failure. Only one of the three major plants was seriously damaged. Although many machines were moved from the badly hit Kugelfischer plant to a branch facility, there was no major effort to disperse the industry. Fearing it would cost too much production, Speer gambled the Allies did not really recognize the ball bearings industry's importance. However, he did secure still greater antiaircraft defenses for Schweinfurt, and he took steps to increase production elsewhere.7" -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 2:56 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] A few questions Hi Kevin: Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have a bad hip that keeps acting up. I don't believe the 303rd took part in any shuttle missions. But I defer to our Historian Harry Gobrecht. I believe the first one was flown by outfits from Italy and the second one was flown by units from the 3rd Air Divison. Those were the fellows that got caught on the ground and and lost all their B-17s. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From WDK19@aol.com Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:01:46 EST Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:01:46 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. --part1_63.dc543c5.27432c6a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Hal: Do you know how I could receive a copy of the Hell's Angels Newsletter with you story. I would love to read you account of 1/11/44. I am interested in learning any thing about that day or mission. I am compiling as much information as possible about the mission that my uncle was lost on. Any thoughts at all would be appreciated. Take care and talk to you soon. PS. Its starting to get cold up here in Brooklyn. --part1_63.dc543c5.27432c6a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Hal:
    Do you know how I could receive a copy of the Hell's Angels Newsletter
with you story.  I would love to read you account of 1/11/44.  I am
interested in learning any thing about that day or mission.  I am compiling
as much information as possible about the mission  that my uncle was lost on.
 Any thoughts at all would be appreciated.  Take care and talk to you soon.
PS. Its starting to get cold up here in Brooklyn. --part1_63.dc543c5.27432c6a_boundary-- From uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:11:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:11:48 +0100 From: Uwe Wiedemann uwe.a.wiedemann@newsfactory.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Wolfgang Rex Reichert Hal, this is Uwe from Germany. I´ve just talked to Reinhard Opitz, President of the JG 400 Assn. ( Me 163). He unfortunately was not common with Rex´name. Are you sure that he served with a Me 163 unit or can you recall Rex having mentioned his squadrons. I´ll now try it through the "Hunter´s magazine" of the fighter pilot´s Assn., but I´m afraid this will take some time. By any chance, if you can recall some more details or Rex´address in Esslingen that would be of great help. Do you remember on what occasion you once first met with him? Kind regards, Uwe From jimwall@ilhawaii.net Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:43:51 -1000 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:43:51 -1000 From: Jim Walling jimwall@ilhawaii.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] WWII Anyone in the list want to reply to this lady? Jim Walling >From: JZATIKA@aol.com >Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:13:32 EST >Subject: WWII >To: jimwall@ilhawaii.net >X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114 > >This interactive email is all new to me. I am an 8th grade special ed >teacher who has an opportunitu to go to Hawaii next week. I plan to go to >Pearl Harbor as I teach about WWII and am planning a presentation for >December 7th for the entire 8th grade on the U.S. entering WWII. My dad was >stationed in GUAM during this time and graciously agreed to join me during my >presentation to answer questions. I have also asked a few of my students' >relatives to come. I think it is great that you also have answered previous >questions pertaining to your return to civilian life after the war. What a >wonderful way to link our past to the present . My question to you >is....could I have my students write to you and ask you their questions? Are >there other veterans that they can write to? I think this is such a >wonderful opportunity to begin to redevelop some patriotism to a generation >that is clueless about war. So many don't respect our nation's flag or what >it stands for. This makes me very sad as I am proud of my relatives who >served. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you. >Peace. Joan > > From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:11:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:11:31 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. It appeared in a 1991 issue of the newsletter. If I can find an extra copy I'll send it to you. I'll need a snail mail address. Hal Sussknd From gordy@saltspring.com Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:53:54 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:53:54 -0800 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. Hi Hal, My snail mail address is: Gordon Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC, Can. V8K 1K1 I hope you were talking to me, as I was one of the 'requestees' Thanks , Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. > It appeared in a 1991 issue of the newsletter. If I can find an extra > copy I'll send it to you. I'll need a snail mail address. Hal Sussknd > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:53:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:53:11 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. To Gordy Alton Now I'm confused. I thought I was answering a request from someone in Brooklyn, NY (who said the pizzas were still good) asking for the article I did for our newsletter giving my version off the Jan. 11, 1944 mission in which the 303rd lost 11 aircraft bombing Oschrsleben. Some other outfits bombed Halberstadt, but we all essentially flew the same route and got hit with the same fighters. Several aircraft bailed their men out over the Zuider Zee area which in January was the kiss of death considering the cold air and water. If there is more than one request I'll make several copies. unless of course Brooklyn moved to Canada. Cheers all! Hal Susskind From gordy@saltspring.com Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:25:42 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:25:42 -0800 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. Hi Hal, Nope, I'm still in Canada. I thought you might have gotten more than one answer. That mission was a tough one for every group that participated. Just to renew your memory, because it has been a while since I introduced myself. I am the son of Donald Merle Alton, 323BS/91BG out of Bassingbourn. I try to get around and meet as many different veterans as possible, and when I was invited to join this talk ring, I was happy to do so. I do a little research, and am glad to point the odd person in the right direction every now and then. Dad is still alive, and at 83, he is doing pretty good. He was shot down in Oct. of '43, and ended up in 17B, in Krems, Austria. I'll say hi to him for you if you like, next time I phone him. I'll be seeing him in a few weeks when I go to visit at Xmas time. I live in British Columbia, and he lives in Alberta, the province next to BC. I enjoy the comraderie on this talk ring as much as that on the 91st Ring. You are a great bunch here, as well. Thanks. Gordy Alton 91BGMA *********************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. > To Gordy Alton Now I'm > confused. I thought I was answering a request from someone in Brooklyn, > NY (who said the pizzas were still good) asking for the article I did > for our newsletter giving my version off the Jan. 11, 1944 mission in > which the 303rd lost 11 aircraft bombing Oschrsleben. Some other outfits > bombed Halberstadt, but we all essentially flew the same route and got > hit with the same fighters. Several aircraft bailed their men out over > the Zuider Zee area which in January was the kiss of death considering > the cold air and water. If there is more than one request I'll make > several copies. unless of course Brooklyn moved to Canada. Cheers all! > Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From WDK19@aol.com Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:45:09 EST Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:45:09 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. --part1_40.378db0b.27447a05_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal: I'm still in Brooklyn. It is starting to feel like Canada here (Weather wise) I would appreciate the newsletter if possible. I am willing to pay you for the costs. The snail mail is William D. Keane, 352-72 Street, Brooklyn, NY 11209. Thanks again. Bill --part1_40.378db0b.27447a05_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal:
   I'm still in Brooklyn.  It is starting to feel like Canada here (Weather
wise)
I would appreciate the newsletter if possible.  I am willing to pay you for
the costs.
The snail mail is William D. Keane, 352-72 Street, Brooklyn, NY 11209.
Thanks again.
                                                              Bill   --part1_40.378db0b.27447a05_boundary-- From gordy@saltspring.com Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:04:28 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:04:28 -0800 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C04F1D.BB5AA660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, It's warm as toast here in Canada today, especially out here on the west = coast. We shipped all our cold stuff south to the 'States. Looks like = things got straightened out. Have a good one. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WDK19@aol.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. Hi Hal:=20 I'm still in Brooklyn. It is starting to feel like Canada here = (Weather=20 wise)=20 I would appreciate the newsletter if possible. I am willing to pay = you for=20 the costs.=20 The snail mail is William D. Keane, 352-72 Street, Brooklyn, NY 11209. = Thanks again.=20 Bill =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C04F1D.BB5AA660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
It's warm as toast here in Canada = today, especially=20 out here on the west coast. We shipped all our cold stuff south to the = 'States.=20 Looks like things got straightened out.
Have a good one.
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WDK19@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, = 2000 3:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) = Another=20 Brooklyn Kid.

Hi Hal:
   I'm still = in=20 Brooklyn.  It is starting to feel like Canada here (Weather =
wise)=20
I would appreciate the newsletter if possible.  I am willing = to pay=20 you for
the costs.
The snail mail is William D. Keane, 352-72 = Street,=20 Brooklyn, NY 11209.
Thanks again.=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp; Bill=20   ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C04F1D.BB5AA660-- From WDK19@aol.com Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:16:10 EST Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:16:10 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Another Brooklyn Kid. --part1_5d.35ce593.2744814a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Gordy: I don't know if I am getting old, but the cold get to me lately. If I put on enough clothes to keep warm, I can't stand up. Take care. Bill --part1_5d.35ce593.2744814a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Gordy:
      I don't know if I am getting old, but the cold get to me lately.  If I
put on enough clothes to keep warm, I can't stand up.  Take care.
                                                          Bill --part1_5d.35ce593.2744814a_boundary-- From mjpmtman@kdsi.net Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:45:46 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:45:46 -0600 From: Maurice Paulk mjpmtman@kdsi.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] W. E. JONES -- IDALIZA - #297546 - HANGER "K" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C04FB1.FE528340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FINALLY GOT THE ENLARGEMENT IT IS 8 x 12. WILL GET IT IN THE MAIL TODAY. tHE RESOLUTION IS PRETTY GGOD. I also enclosed a print [from our site] = of the ship and stiver crew. Judging from the position of the nose art = and several others on the same site I do believe the picture was taken = before the nose art was put on. See what you thilnk. You can keepo th = print or send it back [I think it will be a stinker to scan] which ever = you choose to do. I had two made so I would have one too. It was made = from a 35 mm negative. I have som photos of site one also - mostly = buddies with buildings in the back ground. THE MOUNTAIN MAN a. k. a. Maurice J. Paulk 205 W 12th St Wood River, NE -68883-9164 308-583-2583 EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !! Some when I arrive - MOST when I leave ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C04FB1.FE528340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FINALLY GOT THE ENLARGEMENT IT IS 8 x = 12. WILL GET=20 IT IN THE MAIL TODAY.
 tHE RESOLUTION IS PRETTY GGOD. I = also=20 enclosed a print [from our site] of the ship and stiver crew. Judging = from the=20 position of the nose art and several others on the same site I do = believe the=20 picture was taken before the nose art was put on. See what you thilnk. = You can=20 keepo th print or send it back [I think it will be a stinker to scan] = which ever=20 you choose to do. I had two made so I would have one too. It was made = from a 35=20 mm negative. I have som photos of site one also - mostly buddies with = buildings=20 in the back ground.
 
THE MOUNTAIN=20 MAN
          a. k.=20 a.
Maurice J. Paulk
205 W 12th St
Wood River, NE=20 -68883-9164
308-583-2583
EVERYBODY LIKES TO SEE ME !!
Some when = I=20 arrive -
MOST when I leave
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C04FB1.FE528340-- From sbartosh@hotmail.com Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:24:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:24:31 -0500 From: Bart sbartosh@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Looking for Albert Santella This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C050AA.7B723AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm trying to locate Albert Santella. My father and Uncle knew Mr = Santella while growing up in Fredricktown, PA. My father is John = Bartosh and my Uncle is Steve Bartosh. I am currently a C-17 pilot in = the USAFR and would like to communicate with Mr. Santella. I can be = reached at: majbart@hotmail.com Thank you. Craig Bartosh ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C050AA.7B723AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm trying to locate Albert = Santella.  My=20 father and Uncle knew Mr Santella while growing up in Fredricktown, = PA.  My=20 father is John Bartosh and my Uncle is Steve Bartosh.  I am = currently a=20 C-17 pilot in the USAFR and would like to communicate with Mr. = Santella.  I=20 can be reached at:
majbart@hotmail.com
 
Thank = you.      Craig=20 Bartosh
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C050AA.7B723AC0-- From lcoleman@rmci.net Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:16:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:16:06 -0700 From: Loyd Coleman lcoleman@rmci.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd Coleman Dear LLoyd; I can't tell you anything or any of the crews back in 42. I arrived at the 427th in oct 44. Lee Amos was RO on the same crew as your dad. Lee and I were neighbors after the war, in fact his Nephew worked for me for several years. Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you. I do know from the stories we traded the stockton crew had some Missions that were devastating to say the least. Best of luck on your search. Loyd Coleman From Fordlauer@aol.com Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:45:07 EST Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:45:07 EST From: Fordlauer@aol.com Fordlauer@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #92 - 4 msgs --part1_ab.323d9e8.2748a6c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Coleman, In regard to your wanting information about the early days of the 303rd BG in Idaho, I have a little bit to give you. My grandfather, Colonel Ford J. Lauer, was the 303rd's first group commander. I am in possession of his papers, medals, photos, etc. He commanded the 303rd from February through June of 1942. He was promoted to command the 15th bomb wing in June of '42, of which the 303rd was a part. This was all while at Boise Idaho. In those early days of the war, there were not enough senior veteran air corps pilots to go around. Trying to build an Air Force was very trying, with no equipment, few experienced personnel, and trying to turn citizen soldiers into a cohesive combat unit. It was never intended that Colonel Lauer go overseas with the 303rd BG. The object from the start was that he establish the group, set up the training, and personnel; get things running, and then move on. Colonel Lauer did the same thing with the 304th BG in September of '44. That one he took overseas in March of '43. Once overseas, he was transferred to HQ, 15th AF in Morrocco. Colonel Lauer commanded the 99th BG, 15th AF from February thru December of '44. He flew 51 combat missions. Colonel Lauer joined the air corps in 1925, and was a member of the old 2nd BG, which pioneered the B-17 in the late '30s. If you would like to know more, please ask...................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.323d9e8.2748a6c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Coleman,

In regard to your wanting information about the early days of the 303rd BG in
Idaho, I have a little bit to give you. My grandfather, Colonel Ford J.
Lauer, was the 303rd's first group commander. I am in possession of his
papers, medals, photos, etc. He commanded the 303rd from February through
June of 1942. He was promoted to command the 15th bomb wing in June of '42,
of which the 303rd was a part. This was all while at Boise Idaho. In those
early days of the war, there were not enough senior veteran air corps pilots
to go around. Trying to build an Air Force was very trying, with no
equipment, few experienced personnel, and trying to turn citizen soldiers
into a cohesive combat unit. It was never intended that Colonel Lauer go
overseas with the 303rd BG. The object from the start was that he establish
the group, set up the training, and personnel; get things running, and then
move on. Colonel Lauer did the same thing with t! he 304th BG in September of
'44. That one he took overseas in March of '43. Once overseas, he was
transferred to HQ, 15th AF in Morrocco. Colonel Lauer commanded the 99th BG,
15th AF from February thru December of '44. He flew 51 combat missions.
Colonel Lauer joined the air corps in 1925, and was a member of the old 2nd
BG, which pioneered the B-17 in the late '30s. If you would like to know
more, please ask...................Ford J. Lauer III --part1_ab.323d9e8.2748a6c3_boundary-- From gs442@yahoo.com Sun, 19 Nov 2000 04:55:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 04:55:25 -0800 (PST) From: George Spoerl gs442@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Searching for info on Uncle, Robert C Peter Hello, I am searching for info on my uncle, Robert C Peter. I just recently discovered that he was with the 303rd, 360th and served on "Fink's crew" I have little information on him, he unfortunately had a severe problem with alcohol after the war. The last I knew back in the mid 1990's, he was in a VA hospital in New Jersey. I would like any info on his service, such as info on the aircraft he was in, missions, and any personal info anyone might have. I am very thankful for this site, as it is a HUGE database of info, including my being able to find a photo of "Fink's Crew" including my uncle. If anyone has info that would be helpful, please contact me. George Spoerl, email address gs442@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From glm@303rdBGA.com Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:30:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:30:44 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "Jenne Collins" To: 303rd-talk-@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list Date sent: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:23:27 GMT Dear Members, Having just joined your list, I will introduce myself. I'm slightly unusual (I guess), being 19, female and in England, but please don't hold that against me! My interest in B-17s came about when I went to an airshow here in the UK in about 1990. I fell in love with "Sally-B" ('our' Fortress over here). I then promptly forgot about it, (as one is wont to do aged 9) until 1993, when they televised the movie "Memphis Belle" for the first time. Since then I have spent far, far too much of my spare time in researching these beautiful aircraft. I currently have a database of around 2500 Forts, and access to information on pretty much every one, and have made it my mission to collate information on all of them, with the aim of making it a permanent memorial to the US Army Air Forces, and the other users of the B-17. If anyone has any requests for information, I will see what I can dig up for them, but must admit I only have limited information on personnel. Regards Jenne Collins _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From wejones@megalink.net Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:54:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:54:06 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list > Dear Members, > > Having just joined your list, I will introduce myself. I'm slightly unusual > (I guess), being 19, female and in England, but please don't hold that > against me! > ........ > ...... > Jenne Collins I wanted to welcome Jenne to the list. Last winter, when I first started attempting to research my father's missions, Jenne helped explain to me how to interpret references to several B-17s on the papers that I have. Since then, thanks to her helping me get started, I've been able to identify all or nearly all the planes that he flew. ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From palidin@netzero.net Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:34:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:34:23 -0500 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list Welcome Jenne Collins. You will be a very valuable asset. I am glad to have you with us. Very best, Lloyd Grant (Palidin). Bill Jones wrote: > > > Dear Members, > > > > Having just joined your list, I will introduce myself. I'm slightly unusual > > (I guess), being 19, female and in England, but please don't hold that > > against me! > > ........ > > ...... > > Jenne Collins > > I wanted to welcome Jenne to the list. Last winter, when I first started attempting to > research my father's missions, Jenne helped explain to me how to interpret references > to several B-17s on the papers that I have. Since then, thanks to her helping me get > started, I've been able to identify all or nearly all the planes that he flew. > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From gs442@yahoo.com Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:34:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:34:12 -0800 (PST) From: George Spoerl gs442@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter Jenne, Hi, I've been in contact with Bill Jones, and he's sent me info indicating that my uncle usually flew in 44-6517 PU-F "Old Cock". I believe he flew in other AC but I'm really not sure how that all works out. Thank you for your help. Sincerely, George Spoerl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:13:11 EST Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:13:11 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Searching for info on Uncle, Robert C Peter Hello George: Glad to hear from you via the 303rd link. I remember your uncle well as he joined our crew under Mike Fink, pilot in August of 1944 at Lincoln NB.We did our operational training at Ardmore, OK and flew a new B-17G from there to Valley Wales where we sadly had to turn it over to command. We began flying missions on Oct.17'44 when we went to Cologne. Our next six missions were to the same area, Gelsenkirchen,Beuer, Bottrop, etc. I'm not sure when Bob left our crew, but he did have a severe problem with alcohon...when you are on a crew flying combat there is a heavy responsibility to your assigned task, and liquor unfortunately doesn't mix with it. We had a conference with Bob and sadly agreed that it was not in our best interest to have him continue...as we would do with any other member of the crew. Our navigator, Harry Subkowsky, was struck inthe head on a mission to Leipzig on Nov.30'44 and lost his left eye. Bob was sent to a "flak home" as they called it. We finished our raids onn 3 Feb'45 with a mrmorable, all expense paid trip to Berlin. Please contact me for more explicit detals at Am on vacation now but back next Mon. Glad to help. Best wishes to you and Bob if you should come incontact with him. Cheers, Bob Hand B/Fink's Crew, 303/360-35m. From b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:04:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:04:16 -0000 From: Jenne Collins b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter Dear George, I'll see what I can find for that aircraft then. Sorry I couldn't be of immediate help! Regards Jenne >From: George Spoerl >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:34:12 -0800 (PST) > >Jenne, >Hi, I've been in contact with Bill Jones, and he's >sent me info indicating that my uncle usually flew in >44-6517 PU-F "Old Cock". I believe he flew in other >AC but I'm really not sure how that all works out. >Thank you for your help. > >Sincerely, > >George Spoerl > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bsbrown@servtech.com Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:57:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:57:35 -0500 From: Bruce/Lois Brown bsbrown@servtech.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Another ebay site... ...for you all to consider. You never know... Lois Brown http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=505960760 From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:53:48 EST Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:53:48 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter PU-F 46517 was the mainstay of Fink's Crew. did most of our tour in this venerable aluminum case. This would have included your uncle, George (that is to say your uncle Bob Peter. Would like to know more about the fate of this aircraft once the war was over. Thanks, Cheers, Bob Hand. From WDK19@aol.com Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:11:01 EST Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:11:01 EST From: WDK19@aol.com WDK19@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) --part1_6a.8af573f.274d4a15_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All: Bill Keane, Brooklyn, I would like to wish all of you a very happy Thanksgiving. Without your Military service none of us would be celebrating it. So again THANK YOU. I also have a question, It may be more of a guess than an answer I am looking for. I have posted the story about my uncle last mission. From his Individual casualty Questionnaire # 2522, I found two things, he was last seen "standing in the waist of the plane in the ready" His crew mate bailed out and never saw him again. The plane crashed. My uncle body washed ashore in May. He was wearing "Part of Flying Helmet." Would this indicate he went down with the plane and the helmet was damage in the crash or did the Helmet have more than one part? I know this is guess work. You guys know better than me. I guess I need a few cold Heineken's tomorrow. Thanks for your help and everyone have a great Thanksgiving. Bill Keane --part1_6a.8af573f.274d4a15_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To All:
Bill Keane, Brooklyn,
   I would like to wish all of you a very happy Thanksgiving.  Without your
Military service none of us would be celebrating it. So again THANK YOU.
   I also have a question, It may be more of a guess than an answer I am
looking for.
I have posted the story about my uncle last mission.  From his Individual
casualty Questionnaire # 2522, I found two things, he was last seen "standing
in the waist of the plane in the ready" His crew mate bailed out and never
saw him again.  The plane crashed.  My uncle body washed ashore in May.  He
was wearing
"Part of Flying Helmet."  Would this indicate he went down with the plane and
the helmet was damage in the crash or did the Helmet have more than one part?
 I know this is guess work.  You guys know better than me.
  I guess I need a few cold Heineken's tomorrow.  Thanks for your help and
everyone have a great Thanksgiving.
                                                                             
   Bill Keane --part1_6a.8af573f.274d4a15_boundary-- From b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:24:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:24:46 -0000 From: Jenne Collins b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter Hi, I should be able to let you know about the fate of this aircraft, but I'll have to get back to you later, Regards Jenne Collins >From: Bhandsr@aol.com >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] searching for info on uncle, Robert C Peter >Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:53:48 EST > >PU-F 46517 was the mainstay of Fink's Crew. did most of our tour in this >venerable aluminum case. This would have included your uncle, George (that >is >to say your uncle Bob Peter. Would like to know more about the fate of this >aircraft once the war was over. Thanks, Cheers, Bob Hand. > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From Pilot8thAF@aol.com Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:52:24 EST Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:52:24 EST From: Pilot8thAF@aol.com Pilot8thAF@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 --part1_21.3f695ee.275004d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenne Collins RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) 28 Aug 44 - Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman 03 Oct 44 - Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) 06 Oct 44 - 1st Combat mission #252 25 Apr 45 - Last Combnat mission #364 Flew 82 credited combat missions 07 Aug 45 - Returned to USA 28 Nov 45 - To Reconstruction Finance Corporation , Kingman, AZ where she was scrapped Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_21.3f695ee.275004d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenne Collins
RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F)
28 Aug 44 -  Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE
19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman
03 Oct 44 -  Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H)
06 Oct 44 - 1st Combat mission #252
25 Apr 45 - Last Combnat mission #364
                Flew 82 credited combat missions
07 Aug 45 - Returned to USA
28 Nov 45 - To Reconstruction Finance Corporation , Kingman, AZ  where she
was scrapped
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association --part1_21.3f695ee.275004d8_boundary-- From wejones@megalink.net Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:16:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:16:44 -0500 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 > Jenne Collins > RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) > 28 Aug 44 - Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE > 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman > 03 Oct 44 - Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) >...... I'm curious about whether the decision as to which bomb group a plane was going to be assigned to was made AFTER it arrived in the UK or BEFORE???? Reason is, there is a B-17 that crashed not far from here in Maine, on it's way to the war. The plane in question was 43-38023, which supposedly was flying between Kearney, Nebraska and Dow field when it crashed in the mountains of Maine near the NH border (see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/crashsit.html ). I was just curious whether it could be determined what bomb group this plane was supposed to fly with if it had made it to the UK. Or was that decision made after it was over there? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** From lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:47:58 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:47:58 -0600 From: Lisa I Carlson lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Emerson Shields This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D6BDD3A8EAA8802D31FCCE56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Shields, It was a pleasure to meet you last Friday at the Cosmophere in Hutchinson. John found your 303rd website and so learned more about your squad. The museum was a treat, and I thoroughly enjoyed the history exhibit explaining the development of aerospace in the US. It was particularly appealing since I work for Raytheon Company based in Lexington, MS, which is a major defense contractor. Best wishes to you and your family for the new year. Lisa Carlson --------------D6BDD3A8EAA8802D31FCCE56 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="Lisa_I_Carlson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lisa Carlson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Lisa_I_Carlson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Carlson;Lisa tel;fax:316.676.8221 tel;work:316.676.4791 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com fn:Lisa Carlson end:vcard --------------D6BDD3A8EAA8802D31FCCE56-- From lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:48:12 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:48:12 -0600 From: Lisa I Carlson lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] To Emerson Shields This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------208D6607EB72DA7C155EDD85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Shields, It was a pleasure to meet you last Friday at the Cosmophere in Hutchinson. John found your 303rd website and so learned more about your squad. The museum was a treat, and I thoroughly enjoyed the history exhibit explaining the development of aerospace in the US. It was particularly appealing since I work for Raytheon Company based in Lexington, MS, which is a major defense contractor. Best wishes to you and your family for the new year. Lisa Carlson --------------208D6607EB72DA7C155EDD85 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="Lisa_I_Carlson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lisa Carlson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Lisa_I_Carlson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Carlson;Lisa tel;fax:316.676.8221 tel;work:316.676.4791 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:lisa_i_carlson@rac.ray.com fn:Lisa Carlson end:vcard --------------208D6607EB72DA7C155EDD85-- From b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:50:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:50:45 -0000 From: Jenne Collins b_17flyingfortress@hotmail.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 #446517 Hi, Thank you for the information about 44-6517! Regarding Bill Jones' comment, I think it depends at which stage of the war the aircraft was heading for the UK. As I understand it, aircraft were assigned to Bomb Groups who hadn't yet travelled to the UK, while the group was in the US, and were then flown over by the group. Replacement aircraft, however, were more likely to be flown to the UK and then assigned to the group which needed them most. I am not sure how accurate this is, and I guess that it is a generalisation, but I think it's basically what happened. Regards Jenne >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:16:44 -0500 > > > Jenne Collins > > RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) > > 28 Aug 44 - Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE > > 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman > > 03 Oct 44 - Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) > >...... > >I'm curious about whether the decision as to which bomb group a plane was >going to >be assigned to was made AFTER it arrived in the UK or BEFORE???? >Reason is, there is a B-17 that crashed not far from here in Maine, on it's >way to the >war. The plane in question was 43-38023, which supposedly was flying >between >Kearney, Nebraska and Dow field when it crashed in the mountains of Maine >near the >NH border (see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/crashsit.html ). > > I was just curious whether it could be determined what bomb group this >plane was >supposed to fly with if it had made it to the UK. Or was that decision made >after it was >over there? > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:40 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:40 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 My infomation differes from the one below. 28.8.44 Delivered Lincoln 18.9.44 Grenier 3.10.44 Assigned 360 BS/303 BG PU - F 7.8.45 Returned US - Bradley 13.6.45 Sth Plains 28.11.45 RFC Kingman Source: The B-17 Flying Fortress Story, Roger A. Freeman with David Osborne, Arms & Armour, 1998, Page 275. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 4:24 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 > Jenne Collins > RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) > 28 Aug 44 - Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE > 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman > 03 Oct 44 - Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) >...... I'm curious about whether the decision as to which bomb group a plane was going to be assigned to was made AFTER it arrived in the UK or BEFORE???? Reason is, there is a B-17 that crashed not far from here in Maine, on it's way to the war. The plane in question was 43-38023, which supposedly was flying between Kearney, Nebraska and Dow field when it crashed in the mountains of Maine near the NH border (see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/crashsit.html ). I was just curious whether it could be determined what bomb group this plane was supposed to fly with if it had made it to the UK. Or was that decision made after it was over there? ***************************************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ***************************************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:09:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:09:52 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C05850.CD17F060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Diregard my previous e-mail on same subject.  As always, Harry has done a marvelous job!!  Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Pilot8thAF@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 4:23 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 Jenne Collins RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) 28 Aug 44 -  Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman 03 Oct 44 -  Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) 06 Oct 44 - 1st Combat mission #252 25 Apr 45 - Last Combnat mission #364                 Flew 82 credited combat missions 07 Aug 45 - Returned to USA 28 Nov 45 - To Reconstruction Finance Corporation , Kingman, AZ  where she was scrapped Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H) Association ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C05850.CD17F060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Diregard my previous e-mail on same = subject.  As=20 always, Harry has done a marvelous job!!  Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Pilot8thAF@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November = 25, 2000=20 4:23 PM
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com
Subject: = [303rd-Talk]=20 RE: B-17 #446517

Jenne = Collins=20
RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F)
28 Aug = 44 -=20  Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE
19 Sept 44 - Arrived in = United=20 Kingman
03 Oct 44 -  Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H)
06 Oct = 44 - 1st=20 Combat mission #252
25 Apr 45 - Last Combnat mission #364=20 =
           &nb= sp;    Flew=20 82 credited combat missions
07 Aug 45 - Returned to USA
28 Nov = 45 - To=20 Reconstruction Finance Corporation , Kingman, AZ  where she =
was=20 scrapped
Harry D. Gobrecht, Historian, 303rd BG(H)=20 Association
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C05850.CD17F060-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:21:42 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:21:42 -0600 From: Kevin Pearson kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 #446517 Let me add my two cents. Some aircraft were sent directly to a Base Air Depot (BAD) or a Strategic Air Deport (SAD) prior to being assigned to a group. The BADs and SADs would perform field modifications on the a/c, such as the installation of a chin turret before they were installed on production models. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jenne Collins Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:59 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 #446517 Hi, Thank you for the information about 44-6517! Regarding Bill Jones' comment, I think it depends at which stage of the war the aircraft was heading for the UK. As I understand it, aircraft were assigned to Bomb Groups who hadn't yet travelled to the UK, while the group was in the US, and were then flown over by the group. Replacement aircraft, however, were more likely to be flown to the UK and then assigned to the group which needed them most. I am not sure how accurate this is, and I guess that it is a generalisation, but I think it's basically what happened. Regards Jenne >From: "Bill Jones" >Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com >Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:16:44 -0500 > > > Jenne Collins > > RE: B-17G-55-DL #44-6517 (No name) 360BS (PU-F) > > 28 Aug 44 - Delivered to USAAF Lincoln, NE > > 19 Sept 44 - Arrived in United Kingman > > 03 Oct 44 - Assigned 360thBS/303rd BG(H) > >...... > >I'm curious about whether the decision as to which bomb group a plane was >going to >be assigned to was made AFTER it arrived in the UK or BEFORE???? >Reason is, there is a B-17 that crashed not far from here in Maine, on it's >way to the >war. The plane in question was 43-38023, which supposedly was flying >between >Kearney, Nebraska and Dow field when it crashed in the mountains of Maine >near the >NH border (see http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/crashsit.html ). > > I was just curious whether it could be determined what bomb group this >plane was >supposed to fly with if it had made it to the UK. Or was that decision made >after it was >over there? > > > > ***************************************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * Main home page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * WWII/B-17 page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO page http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ***************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >303rd-Talk mailing list >303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:42:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:42:09 -0600 (CST) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] A few questions Kevin Thanks for your detailed explanation of the Schweinfurt and Regensburg raid. I was going through phase training in B-17s in Washington prior to going overseas when the raids took place. When the second Schweinfurt raid took place I was in Bovington in England. Soon after I was in Molesworth. What was the title of your book? Hal Susskind From glm@303rdBGA.com Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:18:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:18:32 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Aircraft assiginments ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hollritt Subject: Aircraft assiginments To: 303rdTalk@303rdBGA.com During the first year of combat I think USAAF crews flew their B-17's directly to the bases, Later all A/C arriving would go to a dispersal area in the UK where they would be stored until needed. Most crews arrived by train and truck I guess. I heard a story that during one raid a crewman who did not fly a mission heard A/C returning to base, They turned out to be the "Estimated" loss replacements. Anyone ever see that while they were on base for a raid? Todd - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------- End of forwarded message ------- - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.B17Thunderbird.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:31:17 EST Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:31:17 EST From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (Fwd) Aircraft assiginments we flew a new g from hunter field in savannah to valley wales. we spent night and were trucked next day to molesworth. so we did not have that plane assigned for our missions. ibspec@aol.com From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:00:51 EST Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:00:51 EST From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: B-17 #446517 I checked my detailed log and Fink's Crew was assigned 44-6517 PU-F on no less than twenty five missions...got to feel very familiar after a while...brought her back full of holes now and then, but check Mike Fink, pilot, we never lost an rpm. We had sort of picked out a name for the aircraft, "Scotch'n'sofa", but never got a chance do the nose art. I was busy doing sketches, painting jackets, etc., and we seemed to have flown on every occasion, so time was short. At any rate, it's difficult to imagine ol' PU-F being cup up for scrap....bad scene! Thanks for the follow up. Cheers, Bob Hand